“Surprisingly intimate” Season 8 may feature “longest battle in cinema history” & upcoming trailer teased by EW’s Hibberd!

EWGoT8pic copy

EW‘s cover story last month gave us an inside look into the final Game of Thrones season through the eyes of James Hibberd, but it appears that report wasn’t enough for him and so he’s decided to reveal even more about his final set visits. Among his teases, there’s the possibility that a first trailer for the final season could be coming soon!

EW’s Game of Thrones Weekly podcast, in which typically James Hibberd and Darren Franich review the latest episode as a new season airs, just released a special episode. Hibberd retreads some of the same ground of his cover story, but with new, juicy details.

“They spent 10 months filming six episodes of television, which would normally take about two months. That’s pretty crazy. And a lot of that wasn’t the big battle stuff, but the regular scenes of two people talking in a hallway,” he clarifies. “If it’s a scene that would normally take a day to shoot, they’d spend several days shooting, because they’re trying to so hard to get every little thing right. So they’d do take after take, from all sorts of different angles, so that in editing they have different ways to piece it together.”

“But the battle is the big sexy thing,” Hibberd concedes. “It’s shaping up to be what probably almost certainly is the longest consecutive battle sequence in cinema history. They’ve looked to try and find other ones out there, like [the one in] The Two Towers, in The Lords of the Rings, which is about 40 minutes, and in the movie 13 Assassins, which was also around 40 minutes. This is going to be longer than 40 minutes. It’s pretty nuts.”

This battle, which naturally takes place in Winterfell, called for a much grander Stark castle than we’ve ever seen. According to Hibberd, the crew was up to the challenge:

“They massively expanded the Winterfell set. You can wander around, point the camera at any direction and it shows more Winterfell. One of the directors pointed out that even in a big budget Marvel or Star Wars movie, they usually only build what the actors are gonna stand directly in front of and fill in the rest with green screen. But for this set, and a few others too, they built it as a 360º set, so you don’t have to fill it in with special effects; you don’t have to favor one particular angle; you can have cameras follow people around; you can do unusual angles and come up with different things on the day of shooting. So it allows a lot more creativity, and it helps the actors. No acting required. They’re running around these sets, fighting, with fake blood on the snow, snow flying everywhere, torches burning, fires and smoke; it feels like you’re right there.”

We reported on the much-expanded Winterfell set during filming

We reported on the much-expanded Winterfell set during filming

That said, Hibberd saw much more than grand spectacle: “There’s been so much focus on the ‘spectacularness’ of the battles, but they’re not skimping on the one-on-one scenes and the character scenes. I think people are going to be surprised about how intimate the final season is, in addition to the spectacular stuff that you’re expecting.”

“What you want in any final season is things to be unexpected but also make sense,” he concludes. “So you don’t want anything to surprise you for surprise’s sake. You want everything to feel earned and to look back and go ‘okay, yeah, I could see how they were building to that.’ And from that I know from the final season, it does that.”

Hibberd also discusses the emotional table read, which was thoroughly covered in the original report (though he adds, speculatively, that it might have been filmed for a future Blu-Ray extra or the like), as well as the heightened security on set, and the anxiety his secret season eight knowledge is causing him, a feeling he describes as “carrying around the pop culture nuclear codes in your head.” This results in a hilarious tangent about a session Hibberd had with a therapist who just so happened to be a Game of Thrones fan. You can imagine how that went. Or better yet, listen to the episode!

Finally, Hibberd theorizes a trailer may be coming quite soon, which might have something to do with an interview he just published with Deadwood producer Carolyn Strauss, who isn’t only producing the exciting Deadwood film but also Game of Thrones:

“The new season is looking fantastic. It’s really kind of staggering in its accomplishment — and we still have a lot of work to do on those as well,” Strauss says.

When asked about when we can expect a full trailer for the final season, she says “I gotta believe something is going to come out before too long.”

361 responses

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    1. Get in, this teases so much
      a) the trailer is coming in the next few weeks as expected.
      b) Jon killing the Night King, main battle taking place at Winterfell, Dany maybe going mad (is she the one attacking Kings Landing or the Night King?)
      c) The final season is going to be so epic.

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    2. Exciting. I am glad to know they’re going to go strong on the intimate things as well. I guess we’ll all have to be on the lookout for that trailer.

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    3. That’s still a very non answer regarding the trailer from Carolyn. “I gotta believe something is going to come out before too long” could literally be anytime.

      On a side note, Helen Sloan just tweeted she’s done editing for a week or two, so it looks like they’re going on holiday break.

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    4. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      “And a lot of that wasn’t the big battle stuff, but the regular scenes of two people talking in a hallway,” he clarifies. “If it’s a scene that would normally take a day to shoot, they’d spend several days shooting, because they’re trying to so hard to get every little thing right. So they’d do take after take, from all sorts of different angles, so that in editing they have different ways to piece it together.”

      ———-
      I hear you!

      I don’t watch for the battles. Whether it’s NK vs. Jon & Dany, Dothraki vs. zombies, etc., I’m not that hyped about S8 for the big budget battle spectacles.

      I’m looking forward to “high thread count” scenes of:

      Sandor + Wolf Girl
      Arya + Jon
      Sandor + Little Bird 🕊
      Jorah + Lyanna Mormont
      Sam + Jorah
      Brienne + Jaime
      Arya + Gendry (only if he’s quit meth)

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    5. Lots of “intimate scenes in hallways”? Yeah! I really prefer these to the big hack’n’slash endless battle scenes which drag on and on and on and on. I like best the character to character interactions, reveals of underlying motives and all that stuff. Glad to hear won’t be all bashing and bleeding and burning, although that is admittedly a critical part of the story.

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    6. RedWolf: Intimate scenes between Jon and Sansa incoming! I can’t wait for that moment they realise they’re in love!

      Ah, you kidder, you!

      Jon Snowed: Dany maybe going mad

      Why do certain people just LOOOOOOVE this motif? That, and Daenerys dying in pregnancy, or dying when some bogus sword thingy is plunged through their heart? It’s like not everyone appreciates the Mother of Dragons, or something.

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    7. This article has more juicy tidbits than months of interviews and esoteric forecasting from some of the cast. I’m still delighted to have confirmation that this season will keep an acute focus on the interpersonal conflicts. The character drama supplies the life for the larger, fantastical elements so they both need to be on point.

      The more I’m hearing about this season, the less anxious and more EXCITED I get.

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    8. To date, they had their strongest seasons when their budgets were modest and they operated within normal parameters.

      Hmm…I hope the excess pans out.

      Looking forward to the characters talking and banging in the hallways.

      During the battle, I will stare intently into the refrigerator at my selection of snacks.

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    9. I’m going to be pretty disappointed if after 7 years of buildup the NK and his army are defeated by the 3rd episode. We go from 7 years of teasing his invasion and finally the destruction of the Wall and him getting by the Wall….to outright defeat only 3 episodes later? I’m sure it will look good at least.

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    10. Mango:
      To date, they had their strongest seasons when their budgets were modest and they operated within normal parameters.

      Seasons 4 and 6 are my favorites, and both had a considerable budget, so I can’t say I agree.

      I, for one, love battle scenes and intimate moments, so I’m very much looking forward to this season.

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    11. I hope the NK is defeated by E3. That twerp’s story has been dragged out long enough. Hopefully, there will be a book that explains the spiral body parts, wight babies, and all the other things I don’t give a shit about anymore.

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    12. Young Dragon,

      Modest is relative, no?

      They had an excellent budget for all seasons – this is HBO.

      The article points out that they spent 10 months of filming for S8 instead of the normal period and the more elaborate sets. And there are many other reports on the larger budgets for the later seasons. So I do not think my statement is incorrect. But reasonable people can differ.

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    13. Arent seasons six and four widely regarded as the best/most popular? They definitely had budget at that point. If you go back and watch S1 and S2 now they are still good but they certainly look on the low budget side.

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    14. I don’t think we will see the White Walkers totally defeated in episode three. We know there will be some sort of battle in Kings Landing so it may be the Night King or Dany attacking and I think it’s probably the Night King trying to raise a new army.

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    15. Jon Snowed,

      I do not agree that the earlier seasons look low budget. Not at all! HBO always treated GOT as premium and GOT has always had more budget than average cable shows.

      A lot of how you see the value/cost of the season/episodes depend on the pleasure you get from the battles. The battles drive up the costs and for some viewers like me, they are just OK.

      The actors (Lena, Peter and Nik) also got major $ contracts for the last few seasons. Kit and Emilia also got the same big bucks for their efforts. The big wage bill has also driven costs up.

      The first few seasons the average cost per episode was about 6 million. For me, Blackwater is top 2 among the battles. BOB in season 5 (?)was expensive and I did not particularly enjoy it although others did. By season 6, the season cost was about 10 million. Season 8 sounds exorbitant – is it 15 million per episode?

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    16. I’ve recently re-watched S1 & S2 audio commentaries and you can really see the budget differences with the costumes, locations and other factors. I think in one audio commentary in S3 D&D also talk about how they didn’t have budget in the first two seasons to bring everything George wanted to life.

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    17. Jon Snowed:
      I’ve recently re-watched S1 & S2 audio commentaries and you can really see the budget differences with the costumes, locations and other factors. I think in one audio commentary in S3 D&D also talk about how they didn’t have budget in the first two seasons to bring everything George wanted to life.

      I do think all the seasons look good, but yeah you can tell the budget kept increasing every season especially with the costumes.

      I’m going to say no earlier then February for a trailer with Season 8 footage.

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    18. Mango,

      I would agree with Jon Snowed that the earlier seasons most definitely look like they had a lower budget. Particularly seasons 1 and 2.

      I understand your concerns, but let’s wait and see how season 8 plays out before leaping to assumptions that the higher budget will automatically mean that the season won’t be good.

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    19. zandru,

      Right behind you! I don’t get this hype about a mad Daenerys neither, nor do I get the conclusion that she is going to get mad from what she has done so far AT ALL.

      A well known definition of insanity says, that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If you take that in consideration, Daenerys is the least insane person in this story.
      She adapted to every situation which was thrown upon her. She learned something from every experience, she even learned from the mistakes her family members made before. She developed a vision of the world she wants to create and is determined to make it come true – as far as it lays in her power, and yes, this power includes dragons. And all along she is not only asking for advice but also listens to it – when the advice serves its purpose. So, where is this presumption coming from?

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    20. Mango:
      Jon Snowed,

      A lot of how you see the value/cost of the season/episodes depend on the pleasure you get from the battles. The battles drive up the costs and for some viewers like me, they are just OK. …

      For me, Blackwater is top 2 among the battles. …

      Despite the ‘low’ budget, the Blackwater remains my favorite GoT battle scene, and it’s precisely because the narrative focus is primarily off the battlefield (although the wildfire SFX were impressive enough for me).

      Really hoping they put their money where their mouths are with the one-on-one and small group scenes. Those are what make or break an episode for me.

      Besides all the reunions on Ten Bears’ list, I very much want a high-thread-count redemption arc windup for Theon, whether he ends up dying or surviving. We’re heard nary a peep about Alfie Allen’s superb acting chops being put to good use in S8. I get it that this is TV and not every character is going to have their arc tied up in a neat little bow like in the final chapter of a Dickens novel, but I have become emotionally invested in Theon’s suffering and growth. I will be sad if his ending seems like an afterthought.

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    21. Mango,

      Season 6 definitely had a bigger budget than earlier seasons, and that’s my second favorite season, after season 4. Conversely, seasons 1 and 3 probably had the least budget, with season 1 being my third favorite and season 3 being my second least favorite. In other words, for me, the amount of budget doesn’t necessarily have any sway over my enjoyment of a season.

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    22. Firannion:
      Really hoping they put their money where their mouths are with the one-on-one and small group scenes. Those are what make or break an episode for me.

      They have one-on-one and small group scenes every season, so I’m not sure what you’re worried about.

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    23. Gee, another teasing article about the ending…
      Am I the only one who is exhausted? I am SO ripe for the ending, I lack the words. Just this: If Jon and/or Daenerys die and don’t get even a little bit of happiness, for all I care, Westeros can go to hell. I won’t care.
      After seven years of suffering, loss and utterly, utterly misery (no, Theon and Sansa, I haven’t forgotten you!), I am ripe for a tiny bit of romance and love and happiness. And I won’t be content with Bronn finally getting his castle or Arya sailing west to look what’s there, as fun as that would be.
      To phrase a quote by G.K. Chesterton: I don’t need stories to tell me that misery exists, but because to tell me that there is also light and love and all the shit would be worth it in the end. And no, I don’t consider a place on this fu*** Iron Chair as worth it!

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    24. zandru: Ah, you kidder, you!

      Why do certain people just LOOOOOOVE this motif? That, and Daenerys dying in pregnancy, or dying when some bogus sword thingy is plunged through their heart? It’s like not everyone appreciates the Mother of Dragons, or something.

      Dany the Mad Queen is bullcrap. Especially when you have Cersei on the other hand.

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    25. orange,

      Don’t underestimate my boy NK. No way he’s vanquished by episode 3. By my scorecard, he’s got a 4-0-1 record against humans going into S8.
      He could very well be the most competent strategist and battle commander left, now that Stannis, Tywin and Selmy are toast – though I’m hoping the now-experienced Jaime L. can fill that void.

      Here’s my scorecard:
      • NK vs. Jeor at Fist of First Men: Win
      • NK vs. Jon & Wildlings: Resounding Win
      (as Jon admitted to Lyanna M.: “We both lost”)
      • NK vs. 3ER at cave: Tie – and that’s charitable (I only call it a draw because Bran escaped)
      • NK vs. Snow Patrol at Frozen Lake: Win
      (-1 dragon, +1 ice dragon)
      • NK vs. Eastwatch: Win (breached wall)

      I’m still tinfoiling that NK will send a splinter force of ~ 10,000 to WF to keep the armed and ready Northern Alliance occupied, while he takes the remaining 90,000 AotD to KL to induct 1,000,000 unprepared, defenseless residents into his army. If that happens, “Game over, man.” [in voice of Bill Paxton in “Aliens”]

      Perhaps the AotD will besiege the city, and as they’re starting to swarm over the city walls, Dany/Jon will arrive and face the crappy options: either (a) Try to intervene and save the people; or (b) “Burn them all!”

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    26. Young Dragon: They have one-on-one and small group scenes every season, so I’m not sure what you’re worried about.

      Having them and investing good writing in them are not the same thing at all. The last few seasons have been action-heavy and interaction-lite, for my tastes. Tyrion hasn’t been supplied with Tyrion-worthy dialogue in ages, for just one example. Road-buddy banter has deteriorated from brilliance in the early seasons to not much more than endless cock jokes the last couple of years. Moments like Olenna’s signoff shine incredibly brightly now, partly on account of the fact that they are no longer typical (and yes, partly because Dame Diana is a thorough pro who can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). I really miss stuff like the Small Council scenes in the early years. Team Dany’s chats around the map table don’t even come close.

      You are, of course, free to disagree.

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    27. Mr Derp,

      I did not leap to any assumption on how the Season 8 would turn out. I simply pointed out that more money did not always end up in providing a better experience – including a better story – for all viewers.

      I am hoping for an excellent S8 but for me that will pivot on the story, character building and quality interactions between the characters. The cheaper bits, if you prefer!
      For others, the CGI and special effects are the highlights and that takes up lots of money. There does not have to be a trade-off with story and I hope there is not.

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    28. Ten Bears,

      Very good list of interactions! And Jaime and Bran was added as well.

      It should be treat if all these get enough time to be organic and true to the characters/story. For example, when Jaime met Tyrion again after Tywin’s death – that went very quickly. When Jon met Sansa, that got good time.

      I also miss the early Small Council meetings. We have nothing like that now..

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    29. Firannion,

      The cock jokes aren’t even that abundant. Yes they’ve been thrown out a few times, but to say that the road-side banter has been largely supplemented for predominately vulgar jokes is just simply not true.

      I personally thought season 7 had some great character moments and intimate scenes. One that comes to mind is the talk between Jorah and Jon regarding Longclaw. So there’s still some awesome bits of character content. Oh and Cersei and Tyrion’s intense duel of words in 7×07.

      Since this season most of the main cast won’t be separated by regions, it’ll give them a chance to have intimate scenes in spades. So I wouldn’t worry.

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    30. Firannion,

      “Besides all the reunions on Ten Bears’ list, I very much want a high-thread-count redemption arc windup for Theon, whether he ends up dying or surviving.””
      ———
      The only logical “redemption arc windup” for Theon is to save Yara, and then take an arrow or otherwise sacrifice his life to save a Stark or Starks. In fact, I think Theon would relish that opportunity.

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    31. Good to hear. I love both, The intimate moments is what makes GoT. It makes you care about the characters and therefor it makes the action really exciting to watch. To me GoT shines at both.

      I don’t really get all the fear that the final season will be only action. They never skimped on the character moments in my opnion. The talking scenes outweigh the action in every season.

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    32. RedWolf:
      Intimate scenes between Jon and Sansa incoming! I can’t wait for that moment they realise they’re in love!

      Don’t worry, there will always be people saying that intimate scenes will consist of Targcest in the Winterfell corridors 😉

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    33. I have always enjoyed the character moments more than the fantastical elements of the show. The story is what really grabbed and took hold of me. I only started watching this show in August 2017 and I am currently in my 12th viewing.

      As for reunions as long as I see Arya with Jon, Arya with the Hound, and arya with Gendry I will be a happy camper.

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    34. Ten Bears:
      Firannion,

      ——— The only logical “redemption arc windup” for Theon is to save Yara, and then take an arrow or otherwise sacrifice his life to save a Stark or Starks.In fact, I think Theon would relish that opportunity.

      Everyone assumes that Theon will die trying to save a Stark. I think that he will certainly try, but perhaps fail, ironically, in getting his death wish fulfilled. It would be a challenge requiring far more courage for him to go on living with his terrible memories and remorse, while learning from them how to be a leader of his people who makes better decisions.

      Also, he left a possible Greyjoy bun in the oven on board the Myringham. And if he lives, will likely be allied with a monarch with the ability to legitimize a bastard. So I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that ‘save Yara, die heroically’ is the only logical outcome. It certainly wouldn’t be the most original one.

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    35. Dee Stark,

      Lol. I personally agree with you, but I guess some people really do think that Dany will go full on mad queen. I don’t think it’s impossible, but I just don’t see any real evidence to support it either.

      I think it’s mostly the fans who are expecting a lot of twists and turns in the final season that think Dany will go mad. And if she doesn’t, they’ll be the first ones to call it a “Disney ending’ or whatever. The “Dany will go mad” folks will have to answer that one for you though. I think the show has been pretty consistent in showing that Dany is nothing like her father.

      I think the other reason they think she’ll go mad is because she burned the Tarly’s alive, which I have to say is pretty unconvincing evidence.

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    36. Don’t think we’ll just a actual trailer just yet, more like two months before it airs but we might get something like “the long walk” promo from S7 soon, something they filmed just for promotion but with new hair and outfits from S8

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    37. Mr Derp: I guess some people really do think that Dany will go full on mad queen. I don’t think it’s impossible, but I just don’t see any real evidence to support it either.

      I’m with you. Lots of people seem to regard any instance where Dany loses her temper and speaks harshly, or imposes a punishment, or participates in a battle, or plans strategy as her “going mad – MAD!!! I TELL YOU!” I can’t help but suspect misogyny here. If you imagine Ned Stark, or Jon Snow, or Stannis, or any other dude doing the same, he’d be lauded as a great and just ruler and leader. Cersei shows a lot more unhinged behavior, but rarely gets the “MAD!!!” monicker.

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    38. Netheb: Don’t worry, there will always be people saying that intimate scenes will consist of Targcest in the Winterfell corridors 😉

      LMAO!

      Dee Stark:
      People still think Danys going to go mad?
      Why? LOL
      Are we watching the same show

      I feel the same. But they teasted with that idea in S5 and S7. Unless they were just Unless they were just red herring. I’m ruling nothing out with D&D though.

      Melinda:
      As for reunions as long as I see Arya with Jon, Arya with the Hound, and arya with Gendry I will be a happy camper.

      Ditto! Though I don’t care much about Gendry.

      zandru: Cersei shows a lot more unhinged behavior, but rarely gets the “MAD!!!” monicker.

      Which proves it’s not a matter of misogyny. Cersei is a woman too. I think it’s just those who don’t like Dany as a character, that are going along with that narrative.

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    39. Oh, please!

      Stannis burned people alive at the behest of a witch and ultimately burned his daughter alive. He clearly lost his damn mind!

      Ramsay hung people from crosses, tortured them, flayed people, hunted women with dogs, murdered his own father, stepmother and brother. He was a stone cold psychopath!

      Cersei blows up a religious building with hundreds inside; leaves a mother to watch her daughter die before her eyes, chained in a prison cell; among many other crimes. She is patently a tyrant!

      But Dany… daughter of the Mad King… member of a family famed for their predisposition to madness, which is mentioned multiple times… she crucifies people, executes them without trial, torches a religious building with people inside, burns a father and son alive (similar to her father, the Mad King), threatens to execute prisoners of war that refuse to submit… and yet those who entertain the possibility that she might ultimately lose her mind do so because of… misogyny????

      That’s just childish.

      In reality, Dany has been given a staggering amount of leeway to do things that often directly mimic the actions of the show’s villains and still be regarded not only as good, but as a heroine.

      It’s really quite tragic that people resort to such insulting accusations in response to such a straightforward theory about a character.

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    40. And right on cue… 😂

      Already know which direction the rest of this thread is going.

      It’s really incredible how some people seem to have this innate ability to decontextualize things.

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    41. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: But Dany… daughter of the Mad King… member of a family famed for their predisposition to madness, which is mentioned multiple times… she crucifies people, executes them without trial, torches a religious building with people inside, burns a father and son alive (similar to her father, the Mad King), threatens to execute prisoners of war that refuse to submit… and yet those who entertain the possibility that she might ultimately lose her mind do so because of… misogyny????

      That’s just childish.

      In reality, Dany has been given a staggering amount of leeway to do things that often directly mimic the actions of the show’s villains and still be regarded not only as good, but as a heroine.

      I’m with you on this, and I’m certainly not one to be shy about calling out misogyny when I see it!

      It’s already a given that Cersei has gone round the bend with being power-drunk, so fans don’t need to invest a lot of energy in speculating about it. Ramsay was an unmitigated villain from the get-go; Stannis started out grey but forfeited all our empathy when he burned his daughter. None of these characters was ever put forward as one of the two main protagonists, with whom we are supposed to identify.

      So of course Dany is going to be held to a different standard, and it has nothing to do with her being female. If anything, as you correctly point out, she has often been given a pass for questionable behavior simply because she is the ‘heroine.’ The character isn’t just fireproof; she’s Teflon-coated as well.

      I don’t think that Dany going mad is a given by any means, but we are certainly meant to worry that she might. All that talk about the coin flip every time a Targ is born was not included in the scripts to pass the time of day. Also, a person can engage in very bad, very antisocial behavior without psychosis being at the root of it. And maybe that’s all she’ll do: not lose her marbles completely, but abandon her moral compass, which has been demonstrated to be somewhat shaky at best. Her ‘fire and blood’ decisions like burning the Tarlys are not supposed to make us get up and cheer. If she survives, and manages to hang onto her ‘heroine’ halo in the end, it ought to be a sadly tarnished and compromised one.

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    42. AWESOME ARTICLE!!! Thanks so much! 🙂

      Hmmm. I must be a tight butt. The seasons I really did thoroughly enjoy are the ones with “low budgets” (apparently and or mostly and I really don’t care lol).

      S1 – S5 still are my favourites and S6 was very hit and miss. S7 did make up (personally) for S6. I cannot wait for S8 and I’m super excited about a bigger battle (No, I’m not here for battles as I prefer all the other stuff however, this is the “hook” that is Game of Thrones for me.. *It does things different* BotB felt “been there. Done that”).

      Omz!!!!! Yes, it’s documented I reside under a rock but but but but Deadwood movie??? YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!

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    43. Firannion,

      Absolutely agree.

      Nothing bad Dany has done matters. None of the parallels between her and other characters (aside from Jon. Because they’re Ice & Fire. Melisandre said so) matter. Nothing mentioned by other characters about the Mad King, Targaryen rule or dragons matters. The fact that she caused chaos in Slaver’s Bay because she had no plan doesn’t matter because now she has a “vision”; but we don’t know what it is, she won’t tell her own advisers, and… ah, it doesn’t matter.

      We’re just supposed to have this blind spot and accept that she’s going to emerge victorious or die heroically and there’s no possibility of anything else.

      If the show ends and that has come to pass then, so be it. But pretending that there’s been nothing to hint at Dany’s destiny becoming muddied and that anyone who suggests otherwise is doing so just because the character has two X chromosomes is just bizarre, as far as I’m concerned.

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    44. Ramsay's 20th Good Man,

      I think if I remember the interviews with miss Emilia Clarke right, i think you are more right than wrong. She was in shock at how her character ended and more important: she hopes we will like her character in the end. Something is going to happen.

      I personally am very invested in politics and so is grrm. We know that that is something he find important. And I think we both are almost the same. Me and if I remember correctly George is a left wing person but we both dislike communism (social security for the poor but still freedom to make money with hard work). Not that that’s important. But my point comes now.

      If you look at game of thrones and the books politics is a major issue in the story. And I’m not going to appoint all Characters to a certain political spectrum. But if you look at Dany het viewpoint is very close to communism in my book. She does what is right for the common people but she is blindshighted in her view. Her way is the right way, she’s not going to change her mind even if people like tyrion try to reason with her.

      Her results are almost the same as many communist leaders. Femism, sickness, death for her people.

      I think Dany is still good at heart, but she is too emotional (like me and I know how that can be bad in leadership), if something happen she act directly and think later how she will solve the problem she made.

      How her arc will end I don’t know. What I know is that she will not be the alive heroine of the story.
      – dead heroine die in battle. Not very likely because of emilias statement.
      – dying in childbirth. Little more likely but still not very likely.
      – she goes mad when her army is killed by the army of the dead. And the north still won’t follow her. Sam and bran will spill the bean to Jon how Dany burned the tarlys alive. Maybe even cercei has send a letter about it. Even Jon’s backstory can be important here. She will lose her power and more importent her allies. She will turn mad not because of evil but because she is pushed there by events.
      – my theory: there will be some issues in the first 2 episodes where Dany will turn a little bit evil. In episode 3 there’s a turn point. The battle. She shows the north her heroic side. She will sacrafice herself so the starks can escape. But she will not die. The night king will find her. If he can turn a baby why not a full grown woman. Episode 3 will end with Dany being turned by the night king and turn into a white walker. The big question is. Will she be good or turn evil by that.

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    45. “It’s shaping up to be what probably almost certainly is the longest consecutive battle sequence in cinema history.”

      Ok. I’ll be that person who admits that this statement doesn’t do anything at all for me. I don’t care how long a battle is. Actually, the field of fire in S7 has been by far my favourite ‘battle’ in the show this far. I’m not saying I won’t possibly love the S8 one even more, but being the ‘longest consecutive battle sequence in cinema history’ gives me zero hype. Just make it good. Remember, it’s not the length that matters, it’s how you use it. 😉

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    46. Kevin1989,

      It is a good post. I am very sympathetic on the post length. Verbose posts happen to me a lot and in a much much more long winded way than yours. I usually just keep going – our colleagues decide what to read.

      Sigh.

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    47. Johanna van Locchum,

      Not to mention if we look back on the Targaryen’s who went mad except Maegor who was always cruel, traumatic events made them lose their minds and Dany has already being through the ringer multiple times, she was poor, abused and molested by her brother, sold, raped, betrayed, lost her people, her husband, her human and her dragon child etc if Dany was gonna go mad it would of happened by now instead from one of those events but no matter how far she falls she always gets back up stronger than before and yes they are always gonna tease it both in the show and in the books because of how complex her character is but when it comes down to it she will always get her shit together and learn from her mistakes and do better than before

        Quote  Reply

    48. 🤶🏻🎅🎄⛄️❄️🛷
      Seasons Greetings to Sue, Luka, Petra, Oz, Vanessa, Samantha, Axechucker, Bex, David R., Patrick, Hear Marko Roar, et al.; and to all new commenters and the old commenters beyond counting.

      🎶 I’M DREAMING OF A WIGHT CHRISTMAS 🎶

      👻🧟‍♂️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️💀🧟‍♀️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️👻

        Quote  Reply

    49. Emilia’s statements about being shocked at her character’s actions certainly hint at Dany doing something very controversial in season 8… I guess the passage of time will play a huge factor in that if she’s indeed pregnant. We’ve seen the spoiler pictures of two certain characters talking on the KL battlements. Could her fear of losing a loved one push her to do something rash not knowing about KL’s secret stash? Will be interesting to see how everything plays out.

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    50. Mr Derp: I think the other reason they think she’ll go mad is because she burned the Tarly’s alive, which I have to say is pretty unconvincing evidence.

      Right. And Tyrion burned an entire army on the Blackwater and nobody thinks he’s insane.

      Dany withstood the early days with Drogo, his death, the loss of a child and a death march through the Red Waste. She found herself captured by the Dothraki, all alone and without her dragons, and she didn’t go mad. I don’t know what could make Dany go mad at this point. Only way is if Bran wargs into her and makes her say and do crazy things.

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    51. Aegon the IceDragon,

      Dany thinks she has no living relatives; plus, the witch told her she’d never have children. I can see her being fierce about protecting her baby and it’s father. She may even know by then that they’re kin. Fierce, but not insane.

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    52. As for people who have gone insane, does anybody know who really crawled out of that shipping crate in Pentos? The last thing Tyrion did was murder the woman he loved and his father. Tyrion could have had a psychotic break in that moment. He looks like the old Tyrion… but is he, really?

      I do think he may have lost his mind, after all he’s been through, culminating in him murdering his father. Tyrion may have become a villain to replace Littlefinger.

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    53. Another theory about Emilia’s statement: She will not go crazy but the Azor Ahai theory is right, but here is the plottwist, Dany is Azor Ahai and her baby is Nissa Nissa.

        Quote  Reply

    54. I am with you here, it’s going to be either Nights King or Dany attacking Kings Landing and likely causing carnage. With the set-up and Emilia’s statements it could easilly be Dany turning on them.

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    55. I don’t see Tyrion going mad but I do see him turning against Dany in the final season, there is just so much set-up for that.

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    56. Now that would be a good twist however at this stage I don’t see the timings aligning. We know that in episode 1 Dany & Jon will arrive at Winterfell and by episode 3 the White Walkers will attack. No way in my view that 9 months can realistically pass for Dany to give birth over that period. It’s possible that the birth could happen by episode 5 or 6 however.

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    57. Firannion: Having them and investing good writing in them are not the same thing at all. The last few seasons have been action-heavy and interaction-lite, for my tastes. Tyrion hasn’t been supplied with Tyrion-worthy dialogue in ages, for just one example. Road-buddy banter has deteriorated from brilliance in the early seasons to not much more than endless cock jokes the last couple of years. Moments like Olenna’s signoff shine incredibly brightly now, partly on account of the fact that they are no longer typical (and yes, partly because Dame Diana is a thorough pro who can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). I really miss stuff like the Small Council scenes in the early years. Team Dany’s chats around the map table don’t even come close.

      You are, of course, free to disagree.

      I agree 1000%.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Edward,

      It’s about quality of the dialogue though. And that has gone down sorely since the early seasons. Season 1’s dialogue quality feels like it’s from a completely different show. It’s more intelligent and sophisticated by miles.

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    59. Dee Stark:
      People still think Danys going to go mad?
      Why? LOL

      Are we watching the same show

      Because she loves burning people alive and killing them savagely in general. She’s arguably already gone mad compared with her previous self.

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    60. Mr Derp:
      The Wolves of Winter,

      I don’t get it either.Some people revel in being overly dramatic I guess.

      Good job dismissing people’s opinions out of hand. It’s not about “reveling” in being dramatic.

      It’s just a fact that Season 7 prioritized spectacle over good writing.

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    61. The dialogue in S1-3 is noticeably different to that of S7 I agree but in some ways the characters have developed and changed as developed so it should change.

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    62. Jon Snowed,

      The crate, like the dungeon, is a device to suggest metamorphosis. You can’t have killed your father and your girl without being changed. Question is, how has Tyrion changed. Has Tyrion really become a soft-hearted pacifist, or has he become a calculating, ruthless Lannister? Has he become a better man, or a worse one?

      Not only did they have him leave the dungeon and enter a crate, they sent that crate on a journey overseas which indicates massive transformation. And as if that wasn’t enough, they put him in a covered caravan, afterward. All of that says death and the Underworld, to me. The first sign of change after he got out was an inability to perform sexually. Then there was the ramping up of his drinking. I don’t think there’s an indoor scene with him without a goblet. Something snapped inside that man. We’re going to find out what snapped.

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    63. Jon Snowed,

      …or if Dany dies and Arya takes her face and burns the whole city down. Recall that Arya watched in horror from atop the Baelor statue as the King’s Landing residents bayed for her father’s blood. Is King’s Landing on her list?

      *its

      These theories are so easy, we can all pop them out of our asses like pez.

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    64. Nick20: Dee Stark:
      People still think Danys going to go mad?
      Why? LOL

      Are we watching the same show

      Because she loves burning people alive and killing them savagely in general. She’s arguably already gone mad compared with her previous self.

      There are only two Daenerys’ that I recognize: 1-there’s the meek submissive girl and victim of her brother’s inappropriate touching. 2-And there’s the strong, brave woman who changed the face of Essos by freeing slaves and corralling the Dothraki after losing her second family.

      Obviously, I like the second Daenerys better than her “previous self”.

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    65. Anon: Then there was the ramping up of [Tyrion’s] drinking. I don’t think there’s an indoor scene with him without a goblet. Something snapped inside that man. We’re going to find out what snapped.

      Great observation! (And even more true about Book Tyrion, whose thoughts we’re privy to.) It would explain why the smart, amusing, creative little guy of the first few seasons hasn’t been seen in … years. That big strategic goof he promoted for Dany’s grand entrance to Westeros – maybe it wasn’t a mistake on his part. Perhaps he planned it. Then his tete-a-tete with Cersei, which seemed very suspicious … Yeah, I think we’ve got more “Madness of the Lannisters” in this story than of the Targaryens.

      Oh, and for those of you who assert baselessly that Dany “loves” to burn people to death, show me examples of her joy or glee in so doing. Ain’t there.

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    66. Anon: There are only two Daenerys’ that I recognize: 1-there’s the meek submissive girl and victim of her brother’s inappropriate touching.2-And there’s the strong, brave woman who changed the face of Essos by freeing slaves and corralling the Dothraki after losing her second family.

      Obviously, I like the second Daenerys better than her “previous self”.

      And then she left, to her new adventure. Don’t get me wrong, I think freeing Slavers Bay from slaves is a sign of a good person. And we don’t argue that she is not a good person. Most horrible things in history comes from good people, with good intentions, in which power corrupted them, sometimes they lose sight of reality and their truth is the only truth, sometimes they can’t handle the stress and their actions become impulsive. Many people die from good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions is a saying.

      Look at Joffrey a very emotional type of guy, only the bad kind of emotion. Best leaders are still the calculated ones like Tywin. The ones that have a vision but are very flexible in their vission.

      Now back to the point of Dany. She left slavers bay. Only Daario is left. Why would she trust him to stay there. The moment he left the slavers could take over slavers bay again. Maybe she will get that news in episode 1 or 2. Her work didn’t work.

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    67. kevin1989: And then she left, to her new adventure

      Indeed. The reasons aren’t nearly as clear-cut in the show as they are in the books. Book Dany has tried to adapt herself to a really gross and disgusting society, of which slavery is only one part. The Slaver’s Bay folk also love blood sports, fights to the death, eating dog, stupid hairstyles and fashion … the last chapter in Dance w/Dragons shows Dany has really grown tired of that whole sick society and seems ready to go back to her own people, the Westerosi. (My thought is that they, too, will be alien to her after she’s lived her life in Essos, but that’s “Winds of Winter”).

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    68. kevin1989,

      It would always be the case that Dany would leave Dragon’s Bay in the leadership of the freed slaves, with Daario acting as her representative. She must know that she won’t live forever, and neither will her dragons. She must know that she’s only one person with three dragons. It’s an indication that the character is aware of her limitations and is willing to turn over the reigns of power whenever appropriate.

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    69. Jon Snowed,

      “We know that in episode 1 Dany & Jon will arrive at Winterfell and by episode 3 the White Walkers will attack.”

      ————–
      Do we though?

      Unless there’s been lots of dialogue thrown in for nothing, I am 80% sure the first battle will be insurrectionist, disgruntled Northerners attacking WF. Whether my boy NK shows up in the middle of it (laughing to himself that the silly humans saved him the trouble of prepping fresh corpses for wightening) is another story.

      A few months from now, if it turns out I’m wrong, please feel free to dredge up this speculation and bash it. (Ha ha! Look at what that idiot Ten Bears theorized on December 21st!)

      I’ll lay it all out in a later post if I can cut and paste some dialogue excerpts.

      Short version:

      All of the Northern houses have been shipping their grain to WF for themselves and the 10,000 – 20,000 men in the Northern army, and even that won’t be enough to last through a long winter. Meanwhile, Danaerys Einstein Targaryen burned 1,000 wagons full of food that was supposed to feed her armies.

      When treasonweasels (perhaps Lord Robett “the Weathervane” Glover and others) learn the Mad King’s daughter aka Kneebender Jon Snow’s “foreign whore” is on her way there with tens of thousands of hungry Dothraki screamers and Unsullied, they’re going to revolt and try to raid WF’s pantry.

      P.S. (Tinfoil Alert): The posted article quotes EW’s Hibberd’s description of what “probably almost certainly is the longest consecutive battle sequence in cinema history.” To me, “consecutive” implies one skirmish morphing into another or others.

      My inner fanboy wants to see Brienne, Sandor, Jaime and Arya side by side defending WF. If Sam lends Heartsbane to Sandor “Remember Where the Heart Is” Clegane, that’ll make a formidable Valyrian Steel Foursome – whether to repel treasonweasels or to take out Wight Walkers and zombies.

      -End Fanboy Tinfoil Addendum –

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    70. zandru,

      Tyrion’s deal with the slave masters to extend slavery for several more years – a virtual death sentence for many – made me suspicious of him ever since; but, he would survive it, no doubt, after making friends with the masters.

      Dany is his family’s greatest enemy, why wouldn’t he want to infiltrate her operation and sabotage her plans! Of course he would…especially to protect Jaime.

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    71. People still think Danys going to go mad?
      Why?

      1. News arrives that “The Bay of Dragons” has reverted to the slave society she tried so hard to eradicate, due to Daario’s incompetence or greed or whatever. (You made a last-minute appointment of your hard-partying foreign mercenary boy-toy to oversee a fragile, newly-established government? What could possibly have gone wrong with that, Dany?!?) Everything she worked so hard to accomplish there is gone.

      2. “A Dragon is not a slave.” Hey Dany, meet wight-Viserion! Notice how he’s not listening to you anymore?

      3. Your new hot boyfriend not only has better hair than you do, but he’s also a moody, brooding scold with a martyr/messiah complex who can barely talk and certainly won’t tell you anything useful, no matter how much you may need that information for the success of your common plans.

      4. Your trusted advisors are plotting behind your back, one of them with your rival blonde queen who also suffered the tragic deaths of her children.

      5. Your beloved Dothraki and Unsullied fighters are about to go all Viserion on you. Right before your eyes.

      6. Aforementioned rival blonde queen will have no trouble holding an entire city hostage and daring you to BURN THEM ALL.

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    72. Ten Bears,

      +1 I think the battle is multiple small battles with a short pause in the middle of 5 minutes. Before the pause it’s humans that attack winterfell, after the pause the NK.

      Anon,

      Tyrion didn’t infiltrate Dany’s army. He did it for one purpose which is said in the show, his thoughts in the book, and even the commentaries made it clear. He wanted to destroy Cercei for what she did at his trial, trying to kill him. He sees Dany as a means to an end.

      What maybe happen is that Tyrion switched sides to Cercei at the end of season 7, he despises Cercei but he always loved their children as he made clear in that scene. The scene cuts halfway through, we don’t know how Cercei reacted to it. What if she told Tyrion she believed him, and maybe she deepdown love him. Maybe he switched sides because of that.

      Something changed with Cercei also after that, she betrayed Dany and Jon but still the way she acted when Jaime left was odd, the Cercei from the end of season 6 and season 7 would just cut her brother down, she didn’t go through with it why? Maybe because of Tyrion Cercei meeting.

      What I wonder is how Dany will react to Jaime’s arrival at winterfell. she will be mad at first but will she calm down and see Jaime as an Ally, or will she try to kill him. If the latter happen I wonder how Tyrion Varys will react, and more important, how will Brienne react. If that happen I think Brienne will choose Jaime over Dany.

      Personally I would love this, wouldn’t it be amazing if you see a fight with Brienne and the Dotraki, and Brienne wins.
      Dany: Jorah, defend your Khaleesi.
      Jorah: I know I told you I would die for you, but I will not walk into dead that easily. Sorry my queen but your on your own now.
      Dany: I’m outta here, I’m going back to Essos
      *dany flies away on Drogon*

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    73. Ten Bears: Meanwhile, Danaerys Einstein Targaryen burned 1,000 wagons full of food that was supposed to feed her armies.

      I’ve got to debunk this one. She burned maybe a hundred “wagons of food.” And you need to appreciate just how far Winterfell is from King’s Landing. Only Littlefinger gets to teleport. For the rest of the characters, it’s a trip that takes a fortnight or two. By the time they got the “food wagons” up to Winterfell, they’d have eaten it all themselves. For confirmation, check out (the books) where Yoren’s group of Night’s Watch inductees starts out with wagonloads of foodstuffs, but is reduced to gleaning fields and hunting before even reaching the Neck.

      That said, your idea of disgruntled Northerners being the first to attack Winterfell seems like a possibility. I get the impression that some of those lords (replacements for the experienced ones killed at the Walder Frey Wedding Hospitality Event) are nowhere near as smart as Torhen Stark, the King Who Kneeled.

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    74. kevin1989: What I wonder is how Dany will react to Jaime’s arrival at winterfell. she will be mad at first but will she calm down and see Jaime as an Ally, or will she try to kill him.

      I can see her (and everyone else) being wary of Jaime showing up without the Lannister army, but I don’t know if they’d be necessarily mad at him specifically. Once he explains everything and tells them that he essentially defected he should step in and be ‘part of the crew,’ for the most part. There are personal things of his storyline to tie up with the people there; Brienne, Tyrion, Bran.

      – and again, Bronn should arrive there with him after catching up to him on the Kingsroad.

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    75. In my opinion if Tyrion switched allegiance it will be to Jon rather than Cersei and because he distrusts Dany rather than a love for his family.

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    76. kevin1989: What I wonder is how Dany will react to Jaime’s arrival at winterfell. she will be mad at first but will she calm down and see Jaime as an Ally, or will she try to kill him. If the latter happen I wonder how Tyrion Varys will react, and more important, how will Brienne react.

      Clob: Once he explains everything and tells them that he essentially defected he should step in and be ‘part of the crew,’ for the most part. There are personal things of his storyline to tie up with the people there; Brienne, Tyrion, Bran.

      I have a strong feeling that anyone at Winterfell calling for Jaime’s execution will be interrupted by Bran saying something to the effect of, ‘If anyone has a right to be mad at this guy, it’s me, and I forgive him. Our destinies are bound up together. He still has a part to play in defense of the living.’ And everyone else will back off and defer to the better judgment of weird time-traveling Robobran.

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    77. Ten Bears,

      Seasons Greeting to you too!

      To everyone: Happy Holidays!!!

      And where it applies to you:

      French: Joyeux Noël German: Frohe Weinachten Spanish: Feliz Navidad Italian: Buon Natale Portuguese: Feliz NatalDutch: Vrolijk kerstfeest Romanian: Crăciun fericit Polish: Wesołych świąt Bożego Narodzenia Swedish: God Jul Czech: Veselé Vánoce French: Joyeuses fête German: Frohes FestSpanish: Felices fiestasItalian: Buone Feste Portuguese: Felizes FestasDutch: Fijne feestdageRomanian: Sărbători fericitePolish: Wesołych Świąt Swedish: Glad helg Czech: Hezké svátky French: Joyeux NoëlGerman: Frohe WeinachtenSpanish: Feliz NavidaItalian: Buon Natale Portuguese: Feliz NatalDutch: Vrolijk kerstfeest Romanian: Crăciun fericitPolish: Wesołych świąt Bożego NarodzeniaSwedish: God JulCzech: Veselé Vánoce Kung His Hsin Nien Bing Chu Shen Tan China! Mandarin (China) S̄uk̄hs̄ạnt̒ wạn khris̄t̒mās̄! Thai (Thailand) Sung Tan Chuk Ha! Korean (Korea) Chuc Mung Giang Sinh! Vietnamese (Vietnam) Karisama te nawāṃ sāla khušayāṃwālā hewe! (India, Pakistan) Glaedelig Jul! Danish (Denmark) Rôômsaid Jôule! Estonian (Estonia) Gleðileg jól! Icelandic (Iceland)Boas Festas! Portugese (Portugal) Zalig Kerstfeest! Dutch (Belgium) Prettige Kerstdagen/ Zalig Kerstfeest! Dutch (Netherlands) Wesolych Swiat Polish (Poland) Gëzuar Krishlindjet! Albanian (Albania) Eftihismena Christougenna! Greek (Greece) Sretan Bozic! Croatian (Croatia) Craciun Fericit! Romanian (Romania, Moldova) Merii Kurisumasu! Japanese (Japan)

      (I hope at least some of these are correct and are not insults of some sort!!)

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    78. Thanks you, Mango, same to you and everybody here :o)
      As we Frisian say: Noflike Krystdagen en in protte Lok en Seine yn it Nije Jier!

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    79. zandru,

      “I’ve got to debunk this one. She burned maybe a hundred ‘wagons of food.'”
      __________
      Allow me to debunk your debunking;

      Jaime to Cersei (S7e5): “Her dragon burned a thousand wagons.”

      Also, Dany’s the one who had bitched out Tyrion in the previous episode (S7e4) after his “clever plans” had failed when the Lannisters sacked Highgarden and took the food Dany was counting on to feed her armies:

      Dany: “…All my allies are gone. They’ve been taken from me while I’ve been sitting here on this island.”
      Tyrion: “You still have the largest armies.
      Dany: “Who won’t be able to eat because Cersei has taken all the food from the Reach.”

      Hey, I don’t mean to sound snarky. I’m just going by the characters’ words. Dany successfully intercepted the food Cersei had taken from the Reach – and then inexplicably torched it instead of securing it.

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    80. Firannion,

      I think you’re right about Jaime and Bran. Assuming Bran recovers his memory of Jaime pushing him out of the tower window – and even if he doesn’t – Jaime will apologize. And then RoboBran will spout some New Age mumbo jumbo about how it was always predestined that he’d fall and become paralyzed so he could become the 3ER.

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    81. Clob,

      The other thing about Jaime’s arrival… and I may have said this already … is that the Good Guys are in dire need of a competent battle commander. (Maybe one reason they “dumbed down” Tyrion in S7 and had his battle plans fail was to show he may be a good political strategist, but he’s not an experienced battle commander.)

      Jaime, on the other hand, has been shown as learning from his early mistakes to become a shrewd general. He did end the Siege of Riverrun in a matter of days without firing a shot. He outwitted Tyrion & Co. by leaving (and sacrificing) a skeleton crew at Casterly Rock while he took the bulk of the Lannister army to attack Highgarden.

      As much as I hate to say this, perhaps the show “dumbed down” Jon too, e.g., impulsively abandoning his army’s battle plan at Battle of the Bastards, in order to create a job opening for Jaime. Otherwise… what’s the point of his defection?

      One thing not addressed is whether there are factions in the Lannister army who’ll choose to join him – aside from the extorted POWs Dany forced to join her army under threat of incineration.

      Or maybe I’m just wanting some bookend scene for the only time that Joffrey made me chuckle: when he was leafing through the KG White Book in S4e1 and reading the stories of legendary knights, and then got to Ser Jaime Lannister’s (blank) page and said to him sarcastically, “Someone forgot to write down your all your great deeds.”

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    82. Mr Derp,

      Dany does have that “show them no mercy” streak, and some people take that as a parallel to her father. But, as already stated, we have Cersei filling in the role of Mad Queen quite nicely. However, Dany has done things that will help other characters see her as a mad queen in training, eg. the burning of the Tarleys. Which mirrors the burning of the Starks. Tyrion took too many pains to convince her to not do it, to simply take them hostage, for that not to come back to haunt her.

      But there is still the sense tropes being turned on their heads will continue. If a fan fave does a bad thing to another fan fave for a good cause, don’t be shocked.

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    83. Pigeon,

      Thanks, Pigeon.

      And to others according to cultural and religious traditions:

      Happy Hanukkah (belated), Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Los Posadas, Happy Yule, Happy Bodhi Day (belated), Happy Omisoka, Happy Dongzhi, Happy Winter Solstice, Happy Day of the Return of the Winter Goddess, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

      (Sorry if I missed your special area, just ignorance not neglect – take it sincerely that I wish you and yours joy and the best life can offer)

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    84. Ten Bears,

      You are on to something very useful here. Jaime arrives and is the best military leader they have. In fact, he is just the best leader they have, period.

      In the fight and rest of the story, I expect a leadership team in which he will be the first among equals.

      The story so far has repeatedly shown that Daenerys is not a good leader and her decisions harm the population even when she means well. Unfortunately in Loot Train, she burns the food that Jaime is taking for the regular folk. Jon’s leadership is awkward. He is a good chap but is only here because of Edd (who told him when to withdraw at Hardhome); Mel (who fire wighted him); Sansa especially when he broke formation and caused the death of thousands of northern men in the BoB ( they did not have a great chance and he left them no real chance after that understandable mistake!). Tyrion, he struggles when his head and his heart are not aligned.

      The evolution of Jaime is one of the joys of GOT. Early the story, Tywin cups Jaime’s face and asks him to become the man he was meant to be. This is a critical early scene. This is a big part of the story we are watching – an identity arc that GRRM put a lot of work into writing.

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    85. kevin1989: Anon,

      Tyrion didn’t infiltrate Dany’s army. He did it for one purpose which is said in the show, his thoughts in the book, and even the commentaries made it clear. He wanted to destroy Cercei for what she did at his trial, trying to kill him. He sees Dany as a means to an end.

      What maybe happen is that Tyrion switched sides to Cercei at the end of season 7, he despises Cercei but he always loved their children as he made clear in that scene. The scene cuts halfway through, we don’t know how Cercei reacted to it. What if she told Tyrion she believed him, and maybe she deepdown love him. Maybe he switched sides because of that.

      Something changed with Cercei also after that, she betrayed Dany and Jon but still the way she acted when Jaime left was odd, the Cercei from the end of season 6 and season 7 would just cut her brother down, she didn’t go through with it why? Maybe because of Tyrion Cercei meeting.

      What I wonder is how Dany will react to Jaime’s arrival at winterfell. she will be mad at first but will she calm down and see Jaime as an Ally, or will she try to kill him. If the latter happen I wonder how Tyrion Varys will react, and more important, how will Brienne react. If that happen I think Brienne will choose Jaime over Dany.

      Personally I would love this, wouldn’t it be amazing if you see a fight with Brienne and the Dotraki, and Brienne wins.
      Dany: Jorah, defend your Khaleesi.
      Jorah: I know I told you I would die for you, but I will not walk into dead that easily. Sorry my queen but your on your own now.
      Dany: I’m outta here, I’m going back to Essos
      *dany flies away on Drogon*

      Cersai is one thing, and Jaime is another. It’s plausible, and even likely, that Tyrion saw Jaime’s life flash before his eyes the minute that he met the Dragon Queen. Jaime is the one who killed her father, after all. It’s how he got that derisive nickname: Kingslayer.

      The last thing that Jaime did was save Tyrion’s life, with Varys’ help. Tyrion loves his brother. I think that Tyrion is alarmed that Dany will exact justice on Jaime and it’s probably why he’s hyper sensitive every time that she exacts justice on anyone else. Maybe when he sees the Tarlys burn, all he sees is Jaime’s face in those flames. Furthermore, Tyrion may be filled with grief that his house will die, and at his major role in it’s demise.

      I don’t disagree that Tyrion had fantasies of returning to Westeros to confront his sister with an army at his back. The only problem for him is who controls that army: The Lannister family’s greatest living threat, Daenerys Targaryen!

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    86. Anon,

      Daenerys is a threat to the entire Westeros. Not just the Lannister family.

      She has fire dragons and everyone else has sharpened metal sticks.

      Worse yet, she managed to lose one of these beasts to the NK. Can you imagine how the common folk will hate her when that becomes clear to everyone? The Others have a fire dragon!

      I hope she understands that she has no choice but to help correct this mistake. Even if it costs her every dragon she has….after which she can go back whence she came.

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    87. I think people are going to be surprised about how intimate the final season is, in addition to the spectacular stuff that you’re expecting.

      The intimate character moments ARE the spectacular stuff we’re expecting. Looking forward to each and every one.

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    88. I hope the non battle scenes in this next season are well written, as well as being intimate.

      I very much hope the battle at the place where Winter Fell intersperses the epic swirl of fighting at (and above) the fortress with tense interpersonal moments inside the gates and corridors. If it goes as Ten Bears has predicted — with the Northern Lords attacking first, only to have the Army of the Dead arrive, that would make for one heck of a mood whiplash as the armies of the Northern Lords are brought, pell-mell, within Winterfell and the gates slammed shut behind them. Then the second part of the battle commences, with an augmented cast of characters having yet more “high thread count” scenes within the fortress.

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    89. Mango,

      Your Dutch is correct, you even wrote it 5 times. Dutch from Belgium and from The Netherlands is officially the same Dutch with exactly the same spelling, but there are regional dialects and pronunciations.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Mango:
      Ten Bears,

      Tyrion, he struggles when his head and his heart are not aligned.

      Well put. On one level, this is a capsule description of every protagonist in every drama ever written. But it seems particularly pertinent to Tyrion’s arc. His life circumstances keep forcing him to rely on his wits, but his fundamental tenderheartedness keeps skewing his decisionmaking. He’s a romantic in cynics’ clothing. I think that’s largely why readers/audiences are so invested in seeing him triumph in some way – or at least get that nice vineyard for his retirement.

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    91. Tensor the Mage, Shouting Tales of Iron Wars:

      the Northern Lords attacking first, only to have the Army of the Dead arrive, that would make for one heck of a mood whiplash as the armies of the Northern Lords are brought, pell-mell, within Winterfell and the gates slammed shut behind them.

      I like that concept very much. One might object that it’s derivative of Tolkien’s Battle of Five Armies, with all prior petty interspecies squabbles forgotten the moment the orcs show up. But I think it has enough dramatic heft to be reused. I also think it would appeal to GRRM’s antiwar philosophy. Plus, we’d get to see the rebel Northern lords having to look abashed for being jerks to the people who just saved their skins, which would be a satisfying (if brief) moment.

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    92. Mango:
      Anon,

      Daenerys is a threat to the entire Westeros. Not just the Lannister family.

      She has fire dragons and everyone else has sharpened metal sticks.

      Worse yet, she managed to lose one of these beasts to the NK. Can you imagine how the common folk will hate her when that becomes clear to everyone? The Others have a fire dragon!

      I hope she understands that she has no choice but to help correct this mistake. Even if it costs her every dragon she has….after which she can go back whence she came.

      Ha! The lords of Westeros have had the country ablaze for years. Remember that scene when Arya and the Hound are riding away and the camera pulls out to show the smouldering countryside? They really made the most of their sharpened stick, didn’t they!

      Yeah, it’s possible they might blame her for the undead dragon, but I think they’ll be too busy wrapping their heads around white walkers, to begin with, then the very next instant, they’ll be dead. I mean, what’s their quibble? They’re mad that the Night King has transportation and fire? Better a quick death than a slow one.

      She should have stayed nice and safe in Essos, ’tis true; unless, unbeknownst to us, that land mass is connected to the Lands of Always Winter.

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    93. Chilli,

      Aha! Aha! (A second learning moment!)

      A more worldly friend has pointed out that the Flemish people speak a regional variant of Dutch. I think this is what you were telling me as well, Chilli. He says Belgium has Flemish Dutch, German and French so I may have covered all parties. I have been to both Brussels and Bruges but got by on English in both..lol!

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    94. Mango,

      Thanks. What I find fascinating are the similarities of signs that are used, and how some are picturesque (part of one is showsanta and his big bag, or the several that outline trees) and some are more lineal, using the actual signs in order. Usually language is similar when countries connect. But here – you see a big difference between countries that are closer together. I wonder if its related to how much ASL (American Sign Language) influenced the development of their natural sign language. (yes boys and girls, sign language is not universal, but different systems will use similar signs)/off topic

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    95. ash,

      Ash, It is fascinating!

      And until I saw the heading to your link, I was unaware that there were multiple sign languages. I have read a few articles on the cochlear implant conundrum but never paid attention to sign language. It makes absolute sense that there are several because language reflects culture and history and community. I never thought about it – because like many I do not think too enough about the lives of others that have different gifts from my own. It is a shame, we really live richer lives if we think of others more and try to see the world thru another person’s eyes. So another learning event for me!

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    96. Mango:
      Ten Bears,

      Very good list of interactions! And Jaime and Bran was added as well.

      It should be treat if all these get enough time to be organic and true to the characters/story. For example, when Jaime met Tyrion again after Tywin’s death – that went very quickly. When Jon met Sansa, that got good time….

      ———-
      Exactly! The unhurried Jon & Sansa reunion was a perfect example of how to do it right. The pacing, the music, the “choreography”, the camera angles…

      A Jon & Arya reunion merits that kind of “breathing room” x 10.

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    97. Ten Bears:
      Stark Raven’ Rad,

      “And a lot of that wasn’t the big battle stuff, but the regular scenes of two people talking in a hallway,” he clarifies. “If it’s a scene that would normally take a day to shoot, they’d spend several days shooting, because they’re trying to so hard to get every little thing right. So they’d do take after take, from all sorts of different angles, so that in editing they have different ways to piece it together.”

      ———-
      I hear you!

      I don’t watch for the battles. Whether it’s NK vs. Jon & Dany, Dothraki vs. zombies, etc., I’m not that hyped about S8 for the big budget battle spectacles.

      I’m looking forward to “high thread count” scenes of:

      Sandor + Wolf Girl
      Arya + Jon
      Sandor + Little Bird 🕊
      Jorah + Lyanna Mormont
      Sam + Jorah
      Brienne + Jaime
      Arya + Gendry (only if he’s quit meth)

      I’ve got to add a few interactions to my original list. First off…

      Jaime + Jon.

      I remember the scene in S1e2 [link below] when pompous Jaime, the renowned swordfighter, was mocking the inexperienced Jon Snow. Now the roles are somewhat reversed: Jon’s the battle-hardened, famous swordsman, and one-handed (and more humble) Jaime is a mediocre fighter.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FbdNu2dvuw

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    98. Ten Bears,

      Jon and Arya will be tricky. How to do it without being cheesy?

      Jon & Sansa was the first reunion and symbolic in that sense. Jon was unaware she was coming and maybe even feared for her life up to that point. He should have heard she was married to Ramsey their enemy. They both knew they have lost WF and up to then they may have thought they were the only two still alive. (I am not sure if they knew about Rickon) They were not very close on parting and thus upon seeing each other again, they would have been shaken by the feeling the emotional intensity of their familial bond. They were both learning new things about themselves in that moment.

      For Arya, he knows she is safe. She knows he is safe. They are expecting to meet soon. They know they are bonded. They have WF and they know they are now 4 together. Plus it will occur with Daenerys and other new parties under crisis conditions also present. I am interested to see how D&D handles it. It will be very different from Sansa’s – very different conditions. Although this is their first meeting as two adults – it will have less angst, may even be light-hearted in a restrained way.

      Let us see.

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    99. Ten Bears,

      You underestimate Jaime. He was telling Jon the truth – in the manner in which the younger Jaime would speak with Jon. The only other person that told Jon the truth on the Wall was Tyrion.

      Jaime now a depth of life experience that is still beyond Jon. His maturity and life since this meeting have enriched him beyond his fighting arm. Having your child die in your arms does more to deepen you than if you died yourself. His “headspace” and “heart” are stronger, harder, softer, wiser, richer, deeper and better than ever.

      I do not know about you – but every year I have lived (and each time I have suffered) I have become a richer person. My knees have become shit but I would not want to be 18 again.

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    100. Mango,

      I agree with everything you said. 🤓
      Still, Jaime was kind of an a–hole in the way he talked down to Jon. The new and improved Jaime wouldn’t be so smug … and the new and improved Jon wouldn’t be so naive.

      Also Jaime may arguably “ now [have] a depth of life experience that is still beyond Jon. His maturity and life since this meeting have enriched him beyond his fighting arm. Having your child die in your arms does more to deepen you than if you died yourself.”

      It’s hard to compare life experiences, and I could not say whether having your beloved die in your arms does more to deepen you than having your child die in your arms. Personally, I don’t think I could endure either one. (My parakeet died twenty years ago and I’m still not quite over it.)

      As for Jon and Jaime, I’ll be content if they meet on “equal footing”, i.e., as world-wise fellow warriors who both see the big picture. Jaime’s S7 scenes with Cersei demonstrated that he – like Jon – understands the real war is between the living and the dead, and inter-house squabbles and power plays don’t mean anything anymore.

      Also, if and when Jon and Jaime learn that LF’s machinations instigated the Stark-Lannister feud, that could ease tensions somewhat. Plus, Brienne could vouch for Jaime’s integrity, or at least give some context to “the Kingslayer’s” crappy reputation.

      There’s lots of potential for scripting compelling scenes in which Dany and the Starks are convinced to allow Jaime into the fold.

      P.S. Considering all the extra time the showrunners have had to produce the last six episodes, I sure hope the scripts have been nice and polished. It’s all well and good that S8 will feature the longest consecutive battle scene in cinematic history, and action sequences that took weeks or months to film, but I don’t really care about that.

      I’d be reassured if I knew they put the same amount of time, care and effort into crafting dialogue for the characters.

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    101. Mango:
      Isabelle,

      Well said!

      +2 on Isabelle’s comment:

      “The intimate character moments ARE the spectacular stuff we’re expecting. Looking forward to each and every one.”

      Despite all the hype and impressive technical achievements in staging the Battle for Winterfell in S6e9 “Battle of the Bastards”, e.g., Lots of horsies! Lots of corpses! Lots of armies!, I never felt the desire to rewatch that battle scene more than once.

      I’ve pretty much got on perpetual rewatch loop well-written, “non-action” scenes like Tyrion turning Lancel into his spy in S2; Sandor telling Arya how Gregor burned him (S7e4); Jon unchaining Tormund in S5 (the start of a wonderful bromance between former sworn enemies); every private moment between Brienne & Jaime from their first encounter; Lady Crane meeting Mercy aka Arya
      in S6; Stannis offering to legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell in S5; Jon’s speech to the Wildling elders (S5e8); virtually all Jon & Ygritte arguments and then flirtations; so many of Davos’s speeches; Sam’s confident pronouncement ending with “You’re not going to die today, Ser Jorah” (S7e2); Lyanna Mormont’s “But you refused the call” smackdown in S6e10; Oberyn’s soliloquy ending with “I will be your champion” (S4e7); even Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter” rallying speech in early S7.

      I could go on and on..

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    102. We can agree that losing your parakeet is just the worse! Ughh!

      Well, Jon will be host at WF and therefore should act accordingly. Jaime and Tyrion will face suspicions from the northerners so first scenes will be settling in and deciding how to go forward. I expect bickering among the gathered allies until the fighting with NK starts.

      Jaime 101 was quite often (always?) a jackass. Version 7.0 has had significant debugging and upgrades.

      But you know we never completely lose all our jackass bits even as time passes.

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    103. The story needs a big battle, it wouldn’t be believable if there wasn’t a big fight between the army of the living and the army of the dead. Otherwise the threat wouldn’t have been important enough. But I hope they make it emotional. I loved Blackwater, Watchers on the Wall and The Spoils of War because they were very emotional. We didn’t want either party to lose. Maybe they can make it emotional by having familiar wights like Hodor, Karsi, Beric, Tormund, Edd … (all those close to the wall). I don’t know if Hodor or Karsi will return, but it would be very shocking to see them as a wight.
      Didn’t like Battle of the bastards, the first part with Dany in Mereen was surprisingly good, but the second part I really wanted Ramsay to lose and he did, so nothing special.
      I also like the smaller moments like Jon – Arya, The Hound – Arya, Jaime – Brienne, Tyrion season 1 to 4, Ser Jorah reciting a poem, everything with Oberyn, Maester Aemon, Tywin, Olena Tyrell, Sandor Clegane, Ser Davos, Varys, … At least the last 3 are still alive, I hope they can make it interesting.

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    104. Has anyone listened to the NotaPodcast with Joanna Robinson and BryndenBFish where they discuss how much seasons six and seven spoil of the future books? It’s quite interesting.

      Anyway in the last thirty minutes they talk about what may come in S8, whilst not spoilers they mention rumours one of which related to Tyrion and others seem to be suggesting on here. It feels like rubbish to me but just in case here are the rumours

      Jamie will die in Briennes arms after defending and saving Jon, Brianne will then write an entry into a book to show his good deeds thus giving him a redemption arc. Dany will die along with Drogon, they think will likely happen. Tyrion will turn on Dany and that was the purpose of his non shown conversation with Cersei. They talk about Tyrion being much darker in the books. They feel these are the big oh shit moments to come[\spoiler]. Probably nothing earth shattering there but they are well educated when it comes to ASOIF/GOT.

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    105. Chilli,

      Yes, you are right – a fierce battle (s) is required. The questions will be who will be lost? and how? People trying to protect each other etc. We know (or think we know)that the NK will not win at the end, so quality will depend on the intimacy and emotion as our guys grind away at an impossible enemy. I hope they make it interesting.

      I liked those 3 battles best as well. BoB is popular but it did nothing much for me – especially that donut of men piled up.

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    106. Jon Snowed,

      I have heard the same rumours they have heard. We all have. I fear that HBO will go with an ending the will set up their prequel – a Jon &Dan&Baby ending. I would like to believe that they will deliver an ending true to the theme of the story and HBOs usual excellence. So I continue to hope for an emotionally complex thematic end. So:

      Let me tell you what I am sticking with – Jaime dies in Brienne’s arms when he is 90 years old. Tyrion knew that Cersei was not joining the battle. But I do not believe the rest of it re Tyrion.

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    107. Mango,

      You are correct. It’s akin to British English/American English.

      Essentially the same language with minor differences.

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    108. Mango,

      “Jaime 101 was quite often (always?) a jackass. Version 7.0 has had significant debugging and upgrades.”

      ——————
      About debugging and upgrades:

      For me, Jaime’s story has been about the transformative effect someone like Brienne can have on a conflicted man stuck in a toxic relationship with an evil woman. (What’d he say to Cersei once? I think it was something like “Why have the gods made me love such a hateful woman?“) Jaime 1.0 was a selfish pr*ck with no ambition and no regard for others, symptoms of his poisonous attachment to Cersei.

      Lowlife Jaime 1.0 started off relentlessly taunting and mocking Brienne for her looks and her principles, eventually learning to respect her, trust her, protect her, and develop affection for her.

      More than that, while Cersei fed into his malignant “Oathbreaker” persona,
      Brienne brought out the honorable “Ser Jaime” side of his character: the Jaime 7.0 who was finally (?) able to break away from Cersei and abide by his promise to serve the greater good.

      That’s one of the reasons I’ve found the Brienne & Jaime story so compelling. Plus, it’s the only “romance” that’s been organically developed on a slow burn throughout five seasons. I found it more realistic too: It’s not always easy for men (or women) stuck in an abusive or toxic relationship to extricate themselves. In real life, it often happens in fits and starts over time – like with Jaime. (By contrast, for many viewers, the 3-4 episode Jon & Dany “romance” felt too rushed to be convincing.)

      Often, someone ensnared in a bad relationship needs a catalyst – something or someone to appeal to their better nature. That’s the way I’ve perceived Brienne’s effect on Jaime.

      I’ve been doing my S1-S7 rewatch by story line rather than by episode. (Part of the reason is so I can skip over story lines that didn’t interest me the first time around, like the High Sparrow stuff.) Segregated out this way, the story of Jaime & Brienne has been like its own feature-length movie.

      In a strange way, it’s reminded me of one of my favorite guilty pleasure movies, about a self-centered high school hotshot lacking ambition. He’s part of a popular clique that enjoys making fun of the nerds – like the goody two shoes girl in the astronomy and drama clubs who dresses in the same drab clothes all the time and spends her spare time tutoring disadvantaged kids.
      After the hotshot gets in trouble, he’s forced to assist the school janitor, help with the spring play, and do volunteer work on weekends. Of course, that brings him into contact with the goody two shoes girl, and he cruelly bashes and humiliates her – but she’s unfazed.
      In time, his loathing gives way to begrudging respect, then admiration, then self-reflection, etc. When his friends bully her, he abandons them and protects her.
      Coincidentally, the girl’s name is Jamie. The movie is

      “A Walk to Remember”

      .* In the clip below (at 1:36), he explains to his mother the transformative effect the girl has had on him:

      Jamie has faith in me. She makes me want to be different; better.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OPf7VYm4uM

      To me, that could sum up Brienne’s influence on Jaime.

      * (Though the movie was released about fifteen years ago, I didn’t want to “spoil” it for anyone who hasn’t seen it. So don’t click on the link or uncover the spoiler coding if you think you may want to see it.)

      Anyway, whether or not Jaime or Brienne dies at the end, I hope they’re able to consummate their relationship, either emotionally or physically, in Season 8.

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    109. Ten Bears,

      1. You know, I do not blame Cersei for Jaime’s failures. I also do not give Brienne credit for his repair. Both were active influence agents, but Jaime is a grown adult and must take responsibility for who he is, who he was, and who he is becoming. (I have a strong bias against weak men and so I understand Jaime as his own man who loves deeply and tries to please the people he loves but still retains his selfhood.)

      2. I agree that his repair went in fits and starts as would be expected.

      3. Jaime as a child was destined to a great knight. Then he lost his way. He formed a secret marriage with his sister, was disillusioned in the KG and oaths etc. After the killing Aeyrs, he became embittered and nihilistic as he faced social rejection. I think Cersei became his main emotional support once he became the Kingslayer. Tyrion was still too young.

      4. He stopped caring about anything but his fighting, his life with his fun twin, his brother and his family. I am sure he enjoyed Cersei’s bad behaviour. At the beginning of GOT, he and Cersei looked quite happy. Actually, the happiest I have seen Jaime is a scene with Cersei in Season 1.

      5. The lost of his hand forced him to rebuild his identity. He actually tells Brienne – I was that hand.

      6. Luckily for him, he was on a journey with Brienne when he was getting started on the “rebuild”. Her sheer nobility reminded him of who he really was and who he wanted to be when he believed in a better world. Brienne became a key influence as he evolved a new self in fits and starts.

      7. At the same time as he is becoming better, Cersei is becoming worse. Her quest for power, her grief and her fear of the terrible prophecy turn her into a horrific person. Cersei and Jaime evolve away from each other.

      7. While with Brienne at Harrenhal, Jaime makes the first move to intimacy with Brienne. Their exchanges are two people understanding each other. People complain that Cersei slept with Lancel. But Jaime’s contact with Brienne was more substantive in terms of two souls touching.

      8. Over time realized he loves Brienne. They share the same values and bring out the best in each other. These two will marry and have a family. They both live.

      One of my favourite GOT things is that Cersei rejects him when he comes back to KL without his hand. I know the surface cause is her narcissism and that he no longer looks just like her. For me, however, the reason is that the Jaime that left never came back. His change had started and Cersei who had known him since they were in womb sensed that something profound had occurred. Jaime instinctively tries to restore his old life, chasing Cersei and flailing around as his world shifted. He is changing both involuntarily and voluntarily. Cersei and Jaime reconcile but the die is cast.

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    110. Geez, James, as if I needed to be any more hyped (and as if that’s actually possible…?!?!)
      Obviously it’s the quality and not the length that counts, but since this is GoT I have to imagine that at least parts of this biggest-ever battle are absolutely stupendous. x-3

      I absolutely cannot see Dany “going mad” unless some outside force drives her there. Can’t really think of something she’s done that I found wholly unjustified, even if it was perhaps not the optimal choice. I definitely couldn’t compare her to any of the evil/villainous people. Yeah, I think that’s something that was obviously going to be teased, but truly can’t see it happening with her character.
      I can absolutely see Jaime dying in Brienne’s arms and her filling out his pages.

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    111. As I recall they believed Jamie would die saving Aegon/Jon the true king of Westeros. This would be his redemption arc after killing the mad king. They seem certain he would die in the arms of Brianne who would then write in the book that Joffrey mocks Jamie for having few notable pages in an earlier season. Please all note I don’t believe this to be an outright spoiler – I have been avoiding those but these three on the Podcast are experts on the subject matter so they may know sonething that isn’t out in public knowledge or it’s a very educated guess.

      They also talked about the death of Dany and made the point of hoping it’s not just to allow Jon to be king and should have more meaning and gut wrenching feel. They did not mention at all any baby so read into that what you will. They all believe both Dany And Drogon will die.

      The podcast was two hours long and well worth a listen. They don’t like battle of the Bastards and Brynden is convinced Stannis defeats thebBoltons in the books but the other two not.

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    112. i’ve had multiple overdoses of “Jamie dies in Brienne’s arms… eh wait, vice versa…”. i would also be fine if Jamie dies in the arms of The Hound or Hot Pie. or whoever there is.

      on the other hand of course, this end for Jamie would make some sense because it would – not finish his redemption arc. it would close the circle of his own life. which started when his redemption arc was completed and he got reborn instead of dieing.

      one after the other, i hope i don’t get lost in it.

      1) redemption

      being a sort of arrogant prick is not really a crime. banging the twin sister may be one depending on legislation but doesn’t necessarily have to be one if we put emotions over (changing) moral standards.
      pushing a young boy out of a window and risking his death is a crime. when Bran hit the ground he has lost what gave him the biggest joy, what he actually was: his climbing skills, his outstanding control of his own body. all his future wishes were blown away.
      storywise, it happened with purpose. he had to become Google on Wheels. (yes, i do remember i once wrote something like “as long as no one calls him Google on Wheels”… but it’s christmas, and we have some boiling 13°C here in switzerland, so see the words i have chosen as an expression of me feeling nothing is like it has to be anymore… eh, where did i stop?)

      Bran got some of his physical skills given back to him by the brother of the guy who took them away from him. at least for one horse ride, which in the end served the story the same way the window shove did: by bringing Osha into play, his scout on his way to become G… the 3E Raven.

      sum: Bran has lost what he had and is ready to be filled with some new identity.

      Jamie continued being an arrogant dickhead for while. little moments of light shined through, like when he stood in front of king Fat Bob and Barristan Selmy was asked about the last noises the Mad King made before his death. Jamie answered, and it seems none of the two guys listened.

      some intrigues and battles later, he is held captive by a revengeful mom, planted into his own shit and does not have the best time of his life. his attempt to escape fails painfully. circumstances finally make him meet Brienne. completely misunderstanding his situation he feels some wind in his back. he mocks her any time he can and finally even risks the fight. which is ended by the sound of some popular hit on Radio Bolton.

      with all differences levelled by the fact that he and his capturer are now both captives of a bunch of people known for interpreting hospitality pretty special, he gets in touch with reality. he jumps in for Brienne when the Bolton soldiers are about to rape her, and that paves his way to redemption for the only crime he committed.

      he took away what Bran was, back then. now in return, he leaves his hand on the dinner table. the hand he actually was. the times of Jamie the cocky one, the one who could do glorious things (Euron said this, not me), they are over.

      the suffering to follow is his passion before he gets re-born.

      2) life or death, and where to get it

      who wouldn’t need a bath after a long journey with Locke? Jamie and Brienne did need one. and guess what? both being physically unprotected, being exposed to each other, being mutilated or traumatized, they start talking AND listening. and probably the first time ever he tells the story, someone listens to him. Fat Bob and Barristan somewhat didn’t, right?

      he enters the water asking her to save him in case he passes out. “i don’t want to be the first Lannister to die in the bathtub.”
      he does pass out, and she calls for help.
      “guards! the kingslayer…”
      “Jamie. the name is Jamie.”

      Jamie Lannister isn’t the first Lannister to die in a bathtub. but he’s probably the first to get reborn in a bathtub. in the arms of a woman he at least feels sympathy for.
      the kingslayer is dead. his kingslaying hand has been cut off. and is there a need for redemption when you just save some hundreds of thousands of innocent people from a pyromaniac nutjob in decline?

      “fuck honour”, Brienne would say. “and oaths”, Jamie might reply. they both did their part in oathkeeping.

      Jamie’s redemption arc is finished. he could not have been reborn if it wasn’t.

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    113. death by chickenfire,

      “when Bran hit the ground he has lost what gave him the biggest joy, what he actually was: his climbing skills, his outstanding control of his own body. all his future wishes were blown away.
      storywise, it happened with purpose. he had to become Google on Wheels. (yes, i do remember i once wrote something like “as long as no one calls him Google on Wheels”… but it’s christmas, and we have some boiling 13°C here in switzerland, so see the words i have chosen as an expression of me feeling nothing is like it has to be anymore… eh, where did i stop?)

      Bran got some of his physical skills given back to him by the brother of the guy who took them away from him. at least for one horse ride, which in the end served the story the same way the window shove did: by bringing Osha into play, his scout on his way to become G… the 3E Raven.

      sum: Bran has lost what he had and is ready to be filled with some new identity.”

      —————
      Interesting. …
      Do you have an explanation for the 3ER’s statement to Bran in S4e10 that Jojen died so “you could find what you have lost”?

      I still do not understand what he meant.

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    114. Ten Bears:
      Stark Raven’ Rad,

      “And a lot of that wasn’t the big battle stuff, but the regular scenes of two people talking in a hallway,” he clarifies. “If it’s a scene that would normally take a day to shoot, they’d spend several days shooting, because they’re trying to so hard to get every little thing right. So they’d do take after take, from all sorts of different angles, so that in editing they have different ways to piece it together.”

      ———-
      I hear you!

      I don’t watch for the battles. Whether it’s NK vs. Jon & Dany, Dothraki vs. zombies, etc., I’m not that hyped about S8 for the big budget battle spectacles.

      I’m looking forward to “high thread count” scenes of:

      Sandor + Wolf Girl
      Arya + Jon
      Sandor + Little Bird 🕊
      Jorah + Lyanna Mormont
      Sam + Jorah
      Brienne + Jaime
      Arya + Gendry (only if he’s quit meth)

      ……………
      I forgot to include in my list of anticipated character interaction scenes:

      Sansa + Arya

      Actually, there are three Sansa + Arya moments I’d like to see, including one that I thought would play out last season. (Instead, we got that silly purloined letter plot that should have ended in four minutes, e.g.,
      Sansa: “Where did you get this?”
      Arya: “I saw LF get it from Maester Wolkan. He said it was at your request.”
      Sansa: “WTF! That lying snake! Let’s kill him. Now!”
      Arya: “I’m on it. Valor Marghulis.”)

      Sorry for the digression. Anyway, I’m hoping the sisters have a heart to heart talk about the Hound, including a follow up on this exchange between Arya and the Hound in S3e8:

      Sandor: “Sulk all you want. The truth is, you’re lucky. You don’t want to be alone out here, girl. Someone worse than me would find you.”
      Arya: “There’s no one worse than you.”
      Sandor: “Ha! You never knew my brother. He once killed a man for snoring. There’s plenty worse than me. There’s men who like to beat little girls, men who like to rape ’em. I saved your sister from some of them.”
      Arya: “You’re lying.”
      Sandor: “Ask her, if you ever see her again. Ask her who came back for her when the mob had her on her back. They would have taken her every which way and left her there with her throat cut open.”

      While they’re at it, the sisters should acknowledge that for all of his bluster and gruffness, Sandor did prevent Sansa from essentially committing suicide when he saw she was about to push Jofffey off the footbridge, just like he prevented Arya from a kamikaze charge into the Twins when the Red Wedding was in progress.

      Then maybe Arya could confess her confusion – and guilt – for leaving a gravely wounded Sandor to suffer and die after he tried to protect her from a perceived threat. (After all, a stranger carrying a Lannister gold sword insisting Arya’s mother commanded her to take custody of Arya was no different than Meryn F*cking Trant showing up with Lannister soldiers demanding, “come with us, your father wants to see you.”

      A two or three minute scene reminiscing about Sandor, starting with Arya asking Sansa if Sandor was lying about saving her from gang rape and murder during the KL riot, would be a nice prelude to Sandor shocking them both by appearing at WF very much alive.

      #RememberWhereTheHeartIs

      (To be continued…)

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    115. death by chickenfire,

      1. I like this – particularly the use of the word passion. The Passion of Jaime. When Jaime collapses in Brienne arms in the water, the director frames them as a baptism scene – which is ritual of rebirth.

      2. Also from a storytelling perspective, the writer makes Jaime lose his hand as karmic retribution for pushing Bran.

      3. So in the end, Jaime loses his old identity to prepare him to take a new one. Bran loses his old identity to prepare him to take a new one.

      4. Jaime loses his fighting arm in retribution – even if it turns out that Jaime and Bran are tied together for a higher purpose or there were other magical forces driving the events on that day at the Tower.

      5. Jaime also comes clean to Cat and these two arrange that Jaime would be freed and would settle ALL his debts by helping Sansa and Arya. In GOT he found them both – all debts are settled.

      6.Jaime and Bran are tied in some way – I hope we understand it in Season 8.

      7. I am interested in how Brienne’s arc is managed. I cannot believe that her role is to write things in a book. Why would she not go back to Tarth? Even if she is a slow writer, how long would that take?….You know, Jaime killed a bunch of WW. The END.

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    116. Ten Bears,

      Do you have an explanation for the 3ER’s statement to Bran in S4e10 that Jojen died so “you could find what you have lost”?

      actually not. “destination” comes to my mind first. “kid, you were born to become me one day so maybe i can become you one day and hope you become me one later day before… ugh. no, don’t ask me questions i cannot answer! just stop the effing freeclimbing shit!”

      really, the 3ER concept is far beyond anything my little brain can handle. Old McGoogle could as well have said that Jojen died so “i could find what i have lost.”

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    117. It’s not as simple as just writing something in a book. Jamie is almost certainly going to die, if the podcasters are correct his death will hold meaning and allow him to restore his honour. The fact that it’s Brienne writing it is poetic and she’s universally seen as someone who is honourable so his deeds will be believed.

      As for Jamie and Bran I suspect this will lead to some drama before the White Walkers reach Winterfell with the Starks wanting to kill Jamie, Dany may also want to kill him but I doubt he goes out that way.

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    118. Ten Bears,

      This conversation of Arya’s would thrill me
      I may prefer her speaking directly to Sandor though

      Some dialogue between Arya & Brienne, Arya & Jon of course, Arya & Gendry & Hot Pie would give the feels as well

      Other great convos I think would interesting:

      Brienne & Jaime obviously, but also the Hound & Brienne

      Tyrion & Jon, Tyrion & Jaime, Tyrion & Bran, & finally Bran & Jaime 🍻

        Quote  Reply

    119. Sansa and Arya are also by far my most hyped interactions and I feel we should get plenty. They got the Hound to interact with, their shared goal of toppling Cersei, their new found respect for each other and their brothers to look after. I’m hopeful. I really liked the crypt scene and the battlement scene last season between them, the less said about the LF plotline the better…

      I feel like the Stark girls are super important to each other’s stories, I hope we get some great scenes between them.

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    120. MaesterMercy: Other great convos I think would interesting:

      Brienne: What are you doing here?
      Jaime: You told me to Fuck honor.
      Brienne: And?
      Jaime: That’s what I came here to do.
      Hound: You gonna kill a crazy ginger with one hand?
      Tyrion: My brother is the greatest swordsman in all of the seven kingdoms.
      Jon: Was.
      Bran: The way people in the North talk about you, you’re the greatest swordsman who ever walked.
      Jon: You are the three-eyed raven!
      Bran: Corn!

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    121. MaesterMercy,

      Well, obviously Sansa + Arya reminiscing about the Hound would be a prelude to his appearance at WF, and rich scenes between him and the sisters. After all, both girls assume he’s dead; and Arya’s Game of Faces Braavos scenes, first with Jaqen 2.0 in S5 and then with the Waif in S6, showed that she had unresolved conflicting emotions about him.

      In S5, when she insisted she left Sandor to die because she hated him and wanted him to suffer, Jaqen 2.0 whacked her and said [not verbatim]: “A girl lies. To me. To the Many-Faced God. To herself.”

      In S6, she confessed to the Waif that she’d taken Sandor off her list. She did – and then didn’t – want him dead anymore. She sounded confused because she was confused.

      I figure there was no need to conspicuously name-drop Sandor in Arya’s Braavos scenes unless it was to set up something down the road.

      Also, both sisters will probably be shocked to learn that the (somewhat) reformed Sandor is now a team player with the Good Guys.

      The showrunners have to know they struck gold with Sandor & Arya. I’m sure they’ll give us some “high thread count” scenes with them in S8.

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    122. BeardedOnion,

      “I feel like the Stark girls are super important to each other’s stories, I hope we get some great scenes between them.”
      …………..

      About Arya + Sansa: Yes! My 12/24/18, 2:56 pm comment described just one of three scenes between them that I’d like to see in S8. I had a second one I typed on my cell phone while waiting around at the airport; I cut and pasted in some prior seasons’ dialogue before condensing it, and of course I accidentally zapped the condensed version. If I post the long, unabridged version, I apologize in advance.

      PS As for S7 LF… Yes, I know. I never quite understood what his “plan” was. Nor did I understand why he’d risk floating a flimsy plan that relied on the unlikelihood of Sansa not asking or Arya not answering where she got the letter from.

      Finally, I didn’t get how the supposedly clever, silver-tongued strategist folded like a cheap suitcase at his trial-by-ambush, inexplicably admitting to crimes he could easily talk his way out of. A lawyer friend and I had come up with what he felt was a more solid, different treason charge against LF and a scripted line of questioning to box in LF. I got goofy and inserted Stannis and Sandor into the typed up scene. I’m not sure if I have the serious version we did… I’ll look.

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    123. Just to add to all the happy Christmas wishes – Guid Yule (Scots).

      (From the Spaewife who hasn’t been posting but has been keeping up with posts – somewhat!)

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    124. Chilli,

      Huh? My comment disappeared? Was it not approved or something?

      Yes I’m Flemish too.

      Edit: The comment’s here for me but it’s awaiting moderation and it’s showing my real name istead of King in the North East for some reason???!!!

        Quote  Reply

    125. BeardedOnion:
      Sansa and Arya are also by far my most hyped interactions and I feel we should get plenty. They got the Hound to interact with, their shared goal of toppling Cersei, their new found respect for each other and their brothers to look after. I’m hopeful. I really liked the crypt scene and the battlement scene last season between them, the less said about the LF plotline the better…

      I feel like the Stark girls are super important to each other’s stories, I hope we get some great scenes between them.

      I agree. They’ve always been complementary but far from complimentary. Arya is sensitive to the disregarded she was shown by a lot of people, so if Sansa treats her like an equal (which she is), they’ll get on well. They have a similar views on many matters but differ in the particulars. They would make a great team of equals. And they both love Jon and Sandor and loathe Cersei–much to bond on.

      And Happy Christmas to you and to all the Watchers and WotW staff still on this thread.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Ten Bears,

      That just it- I don’t think LF is that great of a strategist- I think he’s more of an opportunist. He folded so miserably because he had not foreseen what he could not foresee- that the 3ER Has real power and had already convinced the sisters Grimm of what must be done. Oh, he tried to talk his way out- every which way he could think of- but all his words were destined to fall flat. The trial was over before it began. There was no wave of chaos to ride out on.

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    127. Mango,

      All this talk of Jaime on this thread, and no mention of a crockpot idea I put forth here years ago- (I realize now it is a small thing, but my first engagement with this idea came in conversation over beers with a friend)

      Jaime as azor ahai. Forging lightbringer to his golden hand and finally becoming the master swordsman he showed promise of in his youth. I just hope the honorable Brienne of Fucking Tarth is not his Nissa Nissa- that would be crushing (but, possible nonetheless)

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    128. Merry Christmas everyone! Also Happy Hanukkah, kwanza, saturnalia- whatever you choose to celebrate, I hope it kicks ass for you this year.

      Skol!
      Prost!
      Slancha!
      Salud!
      Chok Dee!
      Cheers! (Big ears)

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    129. Ten Bears,

      Oh I hope so! It’s one of the things I’m most looking forward to 😀

      I can’t imagine the showrunners not missing a golden opportunity like that. Fingers crossed! 🍻

      Happy Festivus Everyone who celebrates 😉

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    130. Rygritte,

      Oh hellz yeah. Gendry over the fires, layin the hammer down. Let it be so!

      But let the killing happen in battle… not a mirror of mad king in the throne room. I want it to be legit

      “It wouldn’t have been clean”

      Also just realized that crackpot became crockpot above. Lmao

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    131. Sister Kisser,

      🎅🤶🏻🎄🛷🤶🏻🎅
      🎵 I’m dreaming of a Wight Christmas.🎶

      👻🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️💀🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️👻

        Quote  Reply

    132. Rygritte,

      That would be amazing!

      Then Gendry, Arya, & Sandor head to Hot Pie’s Inn to celebrate with meat & mead

      Maybe Brienne, Tyrion, Bran, Sam, Holly, Pod, Davos, & Tormund join 🍻

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    133. Rygritte,

      That would be amazing!

      Then Gendry, Arya, & Sandor head to Hot Pie’s Inn to celebrate with meat & mead

      Maybe Brienne, Tyrion, Bran, Sam, Holly, Pod, Davos, & Tormund join 🍻

      Auto correct changed Gilly to Holly?

        Quote  Reply

    134. MaesterMercy: Then Gendry, Arya, & Sandor head to Hot Pie’s Inn to celebrate with meat & mead

      Maybe Brienne, Tyrion, Bran, Sam, Holly, Pod, Davos, & Tormund join 🍻

      Bran would be the wet blanket at that party. Tough to imagine him celebrating anything anymore. He’d be like Jon Snow at the dinner party in that TV comedy sketch, humorlessly intoning ‘Winter is coming” whenever the other people at the table start talking about the pleasant turn in the weather.

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    135. Ten Bears:

      Finally, I didn’t get how the supposedly clever, silver-tongued strategist folded like a cheap suitcase at his trial-by-ambush, inexplicably admitting to crimes he could easily talk his way out of.

      Sister Kisser:

      That just it- I don’t think LF is that great of a strategist- I think he’s more of an opportunist.

      Agreed, and I’ll add that Ten Bears seems to be projecting our Western ideas of trial, guilt, and acquittal onto Westeros. I too was initially mystified by why Baelish didn’t simply tell of how Sansa had lied her a** off to Lord Royce et. al. concerning Lyssa’s death. The reason is, it didn’t matter — and Baelish knew it. Sansa is now the Lady of Winterfell and de facto ruler of the North in the absence of Jon. She’s the judge in Baelish’s trial, and she decides what evidence counts. Full stop. “There is no justice in this world, unless we make it,” and wow did Sansa make some justice on him! (Not to mention Royce wouldn’t have cared anyway. Once he saw an excuse to rid himself of Baelish, he would have taken it. Politely ignoring any reminder of Sansa’s lying would have done Royce just nicely in that regard.)

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    136. HBO2 is having a GoT marathon this week. I wonder if they’ll find a way to sneak in some new footage between episodes. They did it last season with Arya looking at Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    137. I just re-read the prologue of Game of Thrones (testing if I want to buy the Enhanced Apple iBook version) & of course I had to go re-watch episode 1 to compare the first Other (WW) encounter. And as I’m watching episode 1 again, it’s amazing how Arya (Maisie) is just so damn adorable & stands out. She’s been a scene stealer since the very first episode. I hope they do her justice this season with some primo material because she deserves an Emmy.

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    138. Rygritte:
      Mr Derp,
      So, we can rely on you to watch and report back?

      I’m afraid not. I’ll be at work most of the time that it’s on, but I plan on watching when I can. Besides, I’m sure WOTW and others have this covered already.

      So far I saw the clip from season 8 that we’ve all already seen. Jon and Sansa hugging for about 1 second. You know, the one that caused some people to jump to all kinds of conclusions. I weep to think what a 2 second clip would do 🙂 This is why we can’t have nice things

        Quote  Reply

    139. Mr Derp,

      As I was re-watching episode 1, it was cool seeing everyone bow when King Robert entered Winterfell. I wonder how much Jon’s return with Dany & company (that Jon & Sansa hug) is gonna contrast Robert’s entry. I’m not expecting much kneeling. Lol.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Aegon the IceDragon,

      I’d agree.

      Speaking of season 1, that conversation between Robert and Cersei in episode 5 is pure foreshadowing gold for season 7 and perhaps season 8.

      Robert: “if the Targaryen girl convinces her horselord husband to invade and the Dothraki horde crosses the Narrow Sea we won’t be able to stop them.

      Cersei: The Dothraki don’t sail. Every child knows that. They don’t have discipline. They don’t have armor. – They don’t have siege weapons.

      Robert: It’s a neat little trick you do – you move your lips and your father’s voice comes out.

      Cersei: Is my father wrong?

      Robert: Let’s say Viserys Targaryen lands with 40,000 Dothraki screamers at his back. We hole up in our castles. A wise move – only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field. They leave us in our castles. They go from town to town, looting and burning, killing every man who can’t hide behind a stone wall, stealing all our crops and livestock, enslaving all our women and children. How long do the people of the Seven Kingdoms stand behind their absentee king, their cowardly king hiding behind high walls? When do the people decide that Viserys Targaryen is the rightful monarch after all? We still outnumber them. Which is the bigger number – five or one?

      Cersei: Five.

      Robert: Five One. One army – a real army united behind one leader with one purpose. Our purpose died with the Mad King. Now we’ve got as many armies as there are men with gold in their purse. And everybody wants something different.

      One could easily replace Viserys with Daenerys and the king with Cersei and there you have it. Perhaps even replace the Dothraki with the White Walkers.

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    141. Aegon the IceDragon,

      I can see a scenario where Jon and Sansa have a hug, then Jon tells Sansa with a smile that he got Cersei to help fight the White Walkers, to which Sansa replies “what are you, a fucking idiot?” Jon’s smile then quickly disappears to his I-know-nothing face. Sansa then adds “by the way, the Wall came down while you were away.” To which Jon’s nothing face quickly turns to a frown.

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    142. Mr Derp,
      I’ve watched most of today unintentionally. Got sucked in as you do. Will probably get sucked in again. Nothing to report, except I liked angry Dany better than ice queen Dany. It was so beautiful that season. Sun shining, lots of props. And the colors were so beautiful in King’s Landing.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Mr Derp,

      Cersei wasn’t listening very well. But instead of replacing Viserys with Dany, let’s replace him with the Night King. Now you really have something. And you may have just found a reason why the Golden Company could abandon Cersei & side with Jon & Dany. Because she’s the cowardly Queen hiding behind her castle walls while the rest are willing to fight for their people & country… She most certainly didn’t listen to Robert’s advice.

      Great find Mr. Derp.

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    144. Rygritte,

      And the sexposition was oh so sexpositiony 🙂

      I honestly find season 1 to be a bit corny compared to later seasons, but I still enjoy it. I agree that Dany was much more likeable in season 1. I suppose it’s easier to root for the underdog rather than the queen.

        Quote  Reply

    145. OT: I watched a YouTube video by Alt Shift X about Elissa Farman, her story appears far more interesting than a rehash of GoT set during the long night. Her journeys around Westeros, her lovers, her one great love, her travels to Essos, battles, intrigue, courts, dragon eggs (very interesting theory). Make it happen HBO!

        Quote  Reply

    146. Mr Derp,

      That’s one of my favourite conversations in the show. At that time, the Dothraki were ruled by Drogo with a loose alignment with Viserys and it was true that they didn’t have seige weapons or ships. Cersei and Tywin didn’t count on them having Dany, though. Daenerys amassed all those things, plus dragons. And she was not down with rape, or a fan of seiges, necessarily. Dany was a more clever warrior, and her thing was petitions to the people and the breaking of their chains.

      But sure, while the Dothraki are fast and fierce fighters against men, they’re not fast and fierce enough against the Army of the Dead in open battle. Which is why I find it frustrating that Jon believes the solution is to throw more men at the problem. By his own words, men have confronted the Dead several times and have lost. Is it the dragons – is that what Jon thinks is the gamechanger this time?

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    147. Mr Derp:
      Aegon the IceDragon,

      Thanks.That scene is starting to make me think that Cersei’s downfall will be from an uprising of the KL population rather than some 1-on-1 death scene.Or some combination.

      Those scenes where Dany’s team challenge the people to rise up against their masters are some of the most thrilling. She hasn’t, thus far, used brute force to conquer. Ok, so maybe the loot train battle was brute force, but she was made desperate by Tyrion’s failures. If she didn’t show force and avenge her allies, no one else would align with her…but I digress.

      Cersei stripped the Reach of it’s crops and I’m betting those folks moved into the overcrowded city just to survive winter. Cersei’s potential demise lives within the walls of her own city: a million starving, miserable people. Refugees living in squalor and eating rat stew is a population that Dany can appeal to… if Tyrion didn’t stand in her way. I would have loved to see her handle the invasion without his interference.

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    148. Tyrion advocated doing exactly what Dany had done before. Besiege the city and manufacture a scenario where the desperate people turn on their ruler(s).

      Use Cersei’s own downtrodden people to overthrow her, just like Dany did in Meereen.

      Yet because that tactic now comes from Tyrion it’s a hindrance? What would Dany’s alternative have been?

      And Cersei intended to feed the people of King’s Landing. She captured the entire harvest of the Reach in a pretty much bloodless (Tyrells aside) coup.

      Yet the people of King’s Landing are supposed to turn on Cersei in their desperation rather than the person that burned those crops that could’ve fed them?

      And what alternative could Dany offer them at this point? Is she going to feed them with all that food that she didn’t have to feed her own armies before she burned the crops that she needed to feed her own armies?

      How much of a blind spot do you need? I pray the producers aren’t so compromised.

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    149. There’s an extended scene in Braavos where the mummers portray Tyrion as the one holding the knife to Nedd Stark’s neck, then bribing the goldcloaks to take him prisoner. We saw for ourselves that it was Littlefinger who really held the knife to Nedd’s neck. Was this some kind of Braavosi propaganda, like Fox News? I mean, who really funds the mummers. Do the bankers have an interest in taking sides against certain people? It’s just very interesting that the mummers could know so much of what went on in those events, yet mistake Littlefinger for Tyrion.

      And what do the Lannisters have to do with all of it? In the play, Joffrey and Cersai come off as victims, Tyrion as treacherous, Robert as an abusive drunk, and Nedd as dumb. Were the Lannister’s funding propaganda all the way over in Braavos?

      And maybe there are elements of truth to it. Do we know who really owned the valyrian steel dagger?

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    150. Anon,

      The Dragons & the shit ton of dragonglass weapons. Remember a single stab from dragonglass will down a wight or Walker right? Those weapons will be critical in the War for the Dawn.

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    151. Anon,

      The winners of the war (Lannisters) usually write the histories & stories that follow. So I’m sure Lannister propaganda from Littlefinger & Qyburn played a big part in the plays character portrayals. I also believe that Tyrion, being a dwarf, makes for a much better villain.

      And it probably wasn’t difficult to get anyone to believe he killed Joffrey or betrayed Ned after he most certainly killed his father. That’s why I find Tyrion being accepted as an endgame leader so unbelievable. His reputation is so tarnished on top of being discriminated against by everyone. He could definitely be an advisor though but a King or Regent seems almost too far fetched.

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    152. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Even Mel, who is as old as the hills, talked about the single bowl of mystery stew she ate each day as a girl. Hunger has been with the people of the city for a very long time. There was a riot over food while Tyrion was Hand. Who knows what Cersei intended to do with the food she stole, but Daenerys was determined that the Mad Queen would not benefit from stealing it. Was she to have given her enemy an advantage? What sort of new-fangled type of battle strategy is this that you speak of? You seem to be advocating for incompetence.

      The people who Cersai stripped of their crops are now, likely, inside her city walls. And their sons are the ones who Lannister forces slaughtered. The sacking of the Reach, the slaughter of the Martells, the subsequent loot train battle are all an outcome of Tyrion’s failed strategy. Or maybe it’s not failed. Maybe it went exactly how Tyrion intended it to….except the loot train attack.

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    153. Aegon the IceDragon:
      Anon,

      The winners of the war (Lannisters) usually write the histories & stories that follow.So I’m sure Lannister propaganda from Littlefinger & Qyburn played a big part in the plays character portrayals. I also believe that Tyrion, being a dwarf, makes for a much better villain.

      And it probably wasn’t difficult to get anyone to believe he killed Joffrey or betrayed Ned after he most certainly killed his father.That’s why I find Tyrion being accepted as an endgame leader so unbelievable.His reputation is so tarnished on top of being discriminated against by everyone. He could definitely be an advisor though but a King or Regent seems almost too far fetched.

      That’s a really good point you make here, and it rings true to me. Tyrion and Varys had a chat about how they were both despised by the masses and could only have influence from the shadows.

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    154. Aegon the IceDragon:
      Anon,

      The Dragons & the shit ton of dragonglass weapons. Remember a single stab from dragonglass will down a wight or Walker right?Those weapons will be critical in the War for the Dawn.

      Yes. I’d forgotten about the dragonglass. Lets hope they can organize themselves to make proper use of it. I just have this bad feeling that the “sea” that the Dothraki fear is the one made of Ghost Grass, or in other words White Walkers, that will swallow them whole and end their world.

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    155. Anon,

      2×8 Bronn to Tyrion (pre-Blackwater)

      Bronn: “Have you ever been in a city under siege? Maybe this part’s not in your books. See, it’s not the fighting that kills most people. It’s the starving. Food’s worth more than gold. Noble ladies sell their diamonds for a sack of potatoes.
      Things get bad enough, the poor start eating each other…”

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    156. Anon: You seem to be advocating for incompetence.

      Nope.

      Just countering your illogical suggestion that the starving people of King’s Landing would turn on the queen that had sought to provide for them rather than the queen that burnt the crops she could have fed them with.

      Especially given that Dany has no alternative to offer the people, given that she too was in need of those crops to feed her own people.

      And I’m sure the starving Westerosi would be entirely understanding of Dany’s ‘if I can’t have it, no-one can’ strategy in the war that she started just before the onset of winter.

      Dany burnt the crops and if the buck stops somewhere then it should be with her.

      As for Tyrion’s strategy, as I explained, it’s in the same vein as those previously employed by Dany to capture cities and win the loyalty of their peoples. Yet when it comes from Tyrion it suddenly becomes a “hindrance” to Dany’s progress? Or, worse yet, a dastardly, convoluted and illogical plan by a bitter and scheming Tyrion who has inexplicably decided to sabotage Dany’s conquest for some obscure reason?

      I mean, is it really that hard to accept the possibility that Dany made a mistake that might have consequences for her and the people she wants to rule?

      At what point are we allowed to hold this character responsible for her own decisions? When is it not Tyrion or Jon or Randyll Tarly or Cersei who’s at fault for the decisions that Dany makes?

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    157. S2E2
      TYRION: Listen to me, Queen Regent, you’re losing the people. Do you hear me?

      CERSEI: Ha, the people. You think I care?

      TYRION: You might find it difficult to rule over millions who want you dead. Half the city will starve when winter comes. The other half will plot to overthrow you.

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    158. Rygritte,

      Yep. And don’t forget Cersei went out of her way to give the leftovers from Joffrey’s wedding to the dogs when it was meant for the people. I don’t know how anyone can defend Cersei or think she’s better for Westeros than…well…anyone, tbh.

      I don’t particularly like Dany…..at least, I don’t like her sense of entitlement, but if I had to choose whether to be ruled by Cersei or Dany, I’d take Dany in a heartbeat.

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    159. Can we agree that starvation under Cersei’s rule or Dany’s would be equally unpleasant? I wonder if the scenes of Sansa having the foresight to stock the larders at Winterfell were meant to nudge us toward the conclusion that she would be a better queen than either.

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    160. Firannion,

      I would agree. I think Sansa’s being set up for either the Lady of Winterfell or Queen. The show’s been attempting to convince us for the last couple of years that Sansa would be a great ruler. Whether or not they’ve been successful is another story…

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    161. Firannion:
      Can we agree that starvation under Cersei’s rule or Dany’s would be equally unpleasant? I wonder if the scenes of Sansa having the foresight to stock the larders at Winterfell were meant to nudge us toward the conclusion that she would be a better queen than either.

      Damn, I sure hope not. I’ve seen little of anything to lead me to believe that Sansa should be Queen and would make a good ruler. If that one scene is supposed to be the reasoning, then it most definitely would fit in with the way D&D have portrayed her character…

      Many scenes of Sansa being manipulated & showing (A) followed by one scene of Sansa showing (B). And then let D&D & Sophie tell us in the After the Episode & interviews how Sansa is so wise and would make a great ruler… Damn would that make for a shitty ending. Funny thing is most shows go out with a whimper or some meh ending trying to be cute or smart rather than with a bang. So you never know???

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    162. Firannion,

      When the army of the dead attacks Winterfell and they have to flee, all the grain will be lost. I hope they’ll have the time to take it with them. Viserion might be the one who burns the food in Winterfell.

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    163. Firannion,
      Aegon the IceDragon,

      IMO, you missed the poit: in The Spoils of War Sansa let it slip that “they didn’t committ the right amout of grain” and “that they would have to survive on what they did”. In other words, Sansa didn’t take any action to forse reluctant Northern lords to follow orders. And now there will be tensions around who committed the right amount and who didn’t and the dutiful ones will have to feed the cheats etc. That’s not what makes a good ruler.

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    164. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Coincidence! I wrote a long reply to you that kept going to “That Page Not Found” multiple times until I finally gave up.

      The same thing happened with a long, comprehensive comment about the food shortage subplot throughout S7 (and my tinfoil theory that it will trigger an insurrection by disgruntled northerners wanting their grain back from WF).

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    165. Mr Derp,

      It might’ve been shortsighted on Cersei’s part to use the Iron Bank $ to hire 20,000 mercenaries (= 20,000 more mouths to feed), rather than import food from overseas. Jaime had told Cersei in S7e1 or e2 that they needed the Tyrell grain and livestock from the Reach to feed their army. All of those food wagons were incinerated, courtesy of (equally shortsighted) Daenerys “Dracarys!” Targaryen.

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    166. S2e9
      Cersei to Sansa: The only way to keep the small folk loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy. Remember that if you ever hope to become a queen.

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    167. Rygritte,

      I caught that one too. That’s some good foreshadowing.

      I also caught this one from S2, I think it was episode 7….

      Brienne – “Who would die for a Lannister?”

      Ruh roh…

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    168. Mr Derp:
      Firannion,

      I would agree.I think Sansa’s being set up for either the Lady of Winterfell or Queen.The show’s been attempting to convince us for the last couple of years that Sansa would be a great ruler.Whether or not they’ve been successful is another story…

      The only positive I can think of with that result, would be that it would make me much less sad that the series was ending.

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    169. The showrunners didn’t do a very good job of convincing the audience that Sansa should be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms

      If they do go that route, I think the kingdom would only accept her if she had a king

      Maybe Jaime or Gendry?

      I could see her being Queen of the North by herself maybe

      I’m not fond of either outcome

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    170. Pigeon,

      To: Pigeon; Stark Raven’ Rad; et al.

      Knowing you’d catch the “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” references, I had typed out a long post titled “Why Panic?” when it came to the AotD marching on the Wall.

      Like others, that post got shunted to “That Page Not Found.” I’ll try again in a couple of days.

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    171. Mr Derp,

      I don’t think it’s a case of defending Cersei. It’s just a matter of fact that she had seized control of the harvest from the Reach and would have been able to feed those that were loyal to her.

      Therefore the notion that people would rise up against her and seek liberation from the person that destroyed that harvest doesn’t make sense. If anything it’s given Cersei another PR coup to exploit. It was an own goal from Dany. That’s all.

      Inga,

      That’s an interesting way of looking at it. I thought that scene was just supposed to signify how scarce the food was going to be, despite their best efforts to prepare for winter.

      It’s certainly possible that it was supposed to contrast Cersei’s ruthlessness with Sansa’s naivety / lenience, although we’ll have to wait and see whether that’s played as a specific shortcoming of Sansa’s leadership. The question of how much food they have at Winterfell may be rendered moot if they’re defeated by the Night King and have to flee south anyway.

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    172. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Yea, Dany didn’t do herself any favors by burning the food. However, loyalty is a one-way street with Cersei. She doesn’t return loyalty with loyalty. You could be the most loyal sycophant in the world to Cersei and she’d still find a way to screw you over. That’s who she is.

      What happens when the White Walkers show up in KL, or perhaps the Dothraki? Do you really think Cersei is going to care at all about anyone in KL or provide for them? She’s going to save herself at the expense of everyone else whether she has a lot of food or not. The people of KL will realize this and revolt. At least, that’s my current belief because it makes sense with who she’s been for the last 7 seasons.

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    173. Rygritte:
      The only reason Dany burned the wagons was because it would look cool on tv.

      I’m sure that reasoning played a role in it. Also the fact that it is much more practical (and less dangerous) to create these explosions rather than having to set stunt men on fire continuously throughout the entire sequence.

      The story also never properly addressed the food situation in the aftermath of that battle. Instead they chose to put the focus on execution of Randyll and Dickon. So D&D gave themselves enough leeway to say Dany destroyed 100% of the food, or they can just as easily say she destroyed 75% of the food and managed to retrieve 25% of it. Who knows? This is all assuming they even decide to properly address it in the upcoming season, which isn’t a given.

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    174. Jay Targ,

      Exactly. It was never fully addressed after episode 4 how much food was destroyed. If it was a particularly important plot point, I would assume it would’ve been addressed, but who knows. Maybe it’ll come up in season 8.

      Instead they went with the whole Tarly barbecue fiasco, which really wasn’t made that clear either. Some people thought it was fine, and some people thought it was evidence of a mad queen. Did Tyrion really think Dany was going to win this war without using her dragons at some point? He supports the Mother of Dragons, but gets upset when she uses them?

      I thought that whole situation really muddied the waters for the rest of the season. I still enjoyed season 7 very much, but it became a bit of a mess starting with episode 5

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    175. Rygritte,

      Everyone seems to think Tyrion will betray Dany. The show certainly teased it in season 7, but I’m still skeptical about it. Tyrion’s intelligence seems to have regressed a bit lately, but I have a hard time believing that he’d betray Dany for Cersei. Maybe he’d betray her for Jon, but I don’t see that happening either. Tyrion likes Jon, but he didn’t seem impressed with Jon’s inability to play the game in episode 7.

      If he betrays Dany for Cersei then he would have to be the biggest moron in the 7 Kingdoms. i suppose it depends on how it plays out though. We’ll see where D&D decide to go with it.

      As long as it makes sense to the story and does justice to the characters then I dont care what ends up happening. I just don’t want to see random unearned character motivations that throw everything for loop just for the sake of it. I want it all to make sense.

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    176. I think the ‘Tyrion made a secret pact with Cersei to betray Dany’ hypothesis is utter rubbish. Cersei started torturing Tyrion when he was an infant and never really stopped. She has been trying in various deliberate ways to kill him at least since the Battle of the Blackwater, and he knows it. Whatever growing doubts he may have over Dany, he’s not going to go all soft and sentimental about another Lannister pregnancy. He could go make babies of his own, if carrying on the family name were his priority. It would seem more in character for him to want his whole House to go extinct.

      Shifting his primary allegiance from Dany to Jon makes considerably more sense. If Jon’s parentage reveal comes by the time Jaime arrives at Winterfell, I think Jaime will pledge his sword to Jon, not Dany. For Tyrion, that will seal the deal. Cersei’s being cut out of the loop.

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    177. S1E2
      Jaime Lannister: My dear brother, there are times you make me wonder whose side you’re on.
      Tyrion Lannister: My dear brother, you wound me. You know how much I love my family.

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    178. Firannion,

      I find that the further away we get from watching actual episodes the more likely it is for tin foil or conspiracy theories to gain traction. It’s easy to get caught up in all the hypotheses on WOTW and such, but I find that when I actually watch the episodes I’m much less inclined to believe in the tinfoil theories.

      of course, it doesn’t mean I’m right at all, but I feel much better about my theories when watching the episodes.

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    179. Rygritte:
      S1E2
      Jaime Lannister: My dear brother, there are times you make me wonder whose side you’re on.
      Tyrion Lannister: My dear brother, you wound me. You know how much I love my family.

      That was foreshadowing Tyrion leaving the Lannisters for Dany. Tyrion was on the Lannister side in season 1 obviously. he left for Dany in season 5 after killing his father. This foreshadowing has already been fulfilled.

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    180. Mr Derp: Exactly. It was never fully addressed after episode 4 how much food was destroyed. If it was a particularly important plot point, I would assume it would’ve been addressed, but who knows. Maybe it’ll come up in season 8.

      Yeah, perhaps it’ll come up again. I’m curious in seeing just how much D&D commit to writing a “scarcity of food” plot line. Those always seem difficult to pull off, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they simply have it impact commoners in an offscreen sort of way.

      Mr Derp: I thought that whole situation really muddied the waters for the rest of the season. I still enjoyed season 7 very much, but it became a bit of a mess starting with episode 5

      Yeah I agree. Though I suppose episode 5 was the real beginning of shifting the story towards the war against the army of the dead; which resulted in the prior plot points being sort of dropped. But yes, it was dealt with in a clunky manner.

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    181. Firannion: Shifting his primary allegiance from Dany to Jon makes considerably more sense. If Jon’s parentage reveal comes by the time Jaime arrives at Winterfell, I think Jaime will pledge his sword to Jon, not Dany. For Tyrion, that will seal the deal. Cersei’s being cut out of the loop.

      Jon’s parentage will obviously cause drama within himself, Daenerys, and his siblings/cousins. But I’m interested in how they handle it with the other characters and lords.

      As of now, they haven’t really developed an appetite within the commoners and/or lords wanting to seat a Targaryen on the Throne. So for the appetite to suddenly be created once Jon is revealed to Targaryen would be bizarre. And as far as I remember, the show never delved into Jaime’s guilt towards the death of Rhaenys and Aegon.

      If people start pledging their swords to Jon, my guess is that it would probably have less with him being the “heir” and more towards him as an individual.

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    182. Night King cannot smash KL !! Think of all the stories you’d be giving up ! No Clegane bowl no Jamie killing the mad queen!! You’d kill too much of the story in my opinion

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    183. Mr Derp,

      1,000 wagons of food – the Tyrell granaries + the current crops of the Reach farmers – were incinerated by Dany Einstein Targaryen.

      Did it look cool to watch Drogon blow up the line of wagons? I guess. But setting soldiers on fire and watching them turn to ash and blow away was mighty powerful too.

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    184. Currently watching season 3 on HBO2.

      I never really thought about it but Bran was the one who killed the guy that cut off Jaime’s hand. Well, by warging through Hodor anyway.

      I wonder if that’ll come up when they see each other again in season 8. I can’t wait to see Jaime and Bran speak to each other after all this time.

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    185. Ten Bears,

      It’ll be interesting to see how the dragons will be able to feed themselves, let alone the people. They might want to hold off on incinerating a few victims so they can eat.

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    186. Rygritte:
      S3E7
      Daenerys: Reject this gift, and I shall show you no mercy.
      Razdal: You are mad.

      Jorah to Dany: “You may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart. You would not only be respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule. Centuries come and go without a person like that coming into the world.”

      Jorah’s word is gold 🙂

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    187. Mr Derp: Jorah to Dany: “You may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart. You would not only be respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule. Centuries come and go without a person like that coming into the world.”

      Jorah’s word is gold 🙂

      Davos had fine words to say about Stannis and Davos’ words are the most gold of them all.

      Dany won’t go mad, but she’ll certainly do dark things and turn Tyrion and others over to Jon’s camp.

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    188. S3E10
      Tywin: The house that puts family first will always defeat the house that puts the whims and wishes of its’ sons and daughters first. (Tyrion gives him an odd expression) A good man does everything in his power to better his family’s position- regardless of his own selfish desires. (Tyrion begins to smirk)… Does that amuse you?!

      Tyrion: No, it’s a very good lesson… (turns angry again) Only it’s easy for you to preach utter devotion to family, when you’re making all the decisions!

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    189. Jay Targ,

      During the long summer, there’s plenty of food harvested, it’s just not getting to the small folk. Cersai’s stolen food would have ended up in the mouths of her soldiers…and the mouths of the Golden Co. I suppose the Lannisters could have bought enough food to go around during peace time and war, but they don’t spend money on small folk.

      As for Dany, she is right to starve Cersai’s army and to eviscerate the man who sided with Cersei to utterly wipe out the Tyrells. She is right not to let the Lannisters dine on the spoils of her ally.

      Dany has an ear for justice…and, thus far, meets each challenge with an appropriate pitch. The day that she fails to do so is the day that she will die.

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    190. Mr Derp: Jorah to Dany: “You may cover it up and deny it, but you have a gentle heart. You would not only be respected and feared, you would be loved. Someone who can rule and should rule. Centuries come and go without a person like that coming into the world.”

      Jorah’s word is gold 🙂

      Imagine that slaver calling someone else mad. These are the same folks who cultivate an oppressed majority inside their city walls. That population is like wildfire waiting to be ignited.

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    191. Mr Derp,

      Watching the episodes, I felt that the “closed door meeting” between Cersei and Tyrion, as well as the look Tyrion gave to the door of the “Incest cabin” on the boat, was suggestion enough that Tyrion cut some kind of deal that he does not feel great about and that Dany and Jon may not have approved of, but that he felt was necessary. I don’t think it necessarily means outright betrayal- certainly not for the sake of joining with his evil sister- but I do expect it to be the centerpiece of upcoming conflict between he and team Dany, and I have felt that way from the moment I watched those scenes.

      Then again. I had suspicions about Sansa holding off at battle of the bastards long enough to get Jon and most of the wildling army killed, and thought for sure we would hear about how this was LF’s price for joining the battle. But we never did end up learning anything about a deal, or the demands of negotiation, or potentially even battle strategies whispered in the ear of someone who desperately needed his help… so who knows. The Tyron weirdness could just amount to nothing for all I know.

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    192. Ten Bears:


      Coincidence! I wrote a long reply to you that kept going to “That Page Not Found” multiple times until I finally gave up.

      Try this direct from YouTube. It may work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jx0k3mYvCU

      Pigeon: The only positive I can think of with that result, would be that it would make me much less sad that the series was ending.

      Indeed, that would be a common reaction. There’s a fringe benefit: if Sansa rules in Kings Landing, Arya gets Winterfell. I think Sansa’s Tully side would enjoy being a Southron, but Arya is Wolfish and will thrive in the North. Only downside to all that: it’s a rather Disney ending.

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    193. Sister Kisser: Watching the episodes, I felt that the “closed door meeting” between Cersei and Tyrion, as well as the look Tyrion gave to the door of the “Incest cabin” on the boat, was suggestion enough that Tyrion cut some kind of deal that he does not feel great about and that Dany and Jon may not have approved of, but that he felt was necessary. I don’t think it necessarily means outright betrayal- certainly not for the sake of joining with his evil sister- but I do expect it to be the centerpiece of upcoming conflict between he and team Dany, and I have felt that way from the moment I watched those scenes.

      The moment when Cersei stormed off from the parlay is whey Tyrion found out that Jon had bent the knee to Dany. A fact which Dany neglected to share with him. The guy is her Hand, for crying out loud. Tyrion claims that he would have suggested that Jon do precisely that, however, it is with this new piece of information that Tyrion goes to meet with Cersei. Maybe it dawned on him that Dany doesn’t entirely trust him.

      And why should she? Twice already Tyrion has placed her in an impossible situation. First, he returned slaves to the Masters. How was Dany to extricate herself from that terrible ‘deal’ when she returned but to go to war and kill a couple of Masters as a message? That deal could have damaged her credibility with her political base, and she definitely couln’t let it stand. The second time is in Westeros, where he turns her strong position into a weak one, forcing her to take drastic steps and make examples of the murderous, thieving Tarleys.

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    194. You know, in all of this ruckus, Jon keeps saying that the only war that matters is the one between the living and the dead; but I don’t find that war terribly interesting.

      The dead are uncomplicated, they hack and slash and kill a whole bunch of people…yawn. It’s the wars between the living that I find interesting: Lannister’s vs. everybody else. I think that those conflicts and betrayals will be the most arresting in the final season.

      Imagine if Tyrion is revealed to be a villain against Jon and Dany, as I think he will be? Imagine if Melisandre is evil, as I think she is. What about Sansa vs. Arya. What if Jon and Dany come into conflict? This is the best stuff.

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    195. Anon,

      I don’t know if you’re referring to cities of Planetos in general or to King’s Landing, but remember, Mel isn’t from KL. She’s from Asshai.

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    196. Great thread, as they often are. 🙂

      Since many people have posted about many reunions, story lines, etc. they’d like to see, I’m going to throw something out there that I’ve mentioned before but have seen no mention of here: I’d love to see Jaime’s journey north include a stop at the Twins. We know from Arya’s encounter with the Lannister soldiers that Jaime knows that the Freys are toast. He may well wish to ascertain whether one of the last people he deeply wronged, Edmure Tully, is a) alive and b) willing to enter into an alliance against the AotD. If Jaime is truly invested in the future of Westeros itself above that of House Lannister—and all indications are that he is—it will behoove him to a) free Tully from the dungeon (assuming the Frey women haven’t already done so), b) help him establish control over both the Twins and Riverrun so preparations can be made for battle with either Cersei or the AotD, and c) obtain a complement of fighting men to accompany him north to Winterfell. Thoughts?

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    197. Wolfish,

      After snooping Sansa discovered Arya’s facemask satchel in S7e6, I really wanted her to put 2 + 2 together and realize that it was her “very strange and annoying” little sister who had single-handedly wiped out House Frey.

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    198. Wolfish,

      Before Season 7 I think most people hoped that we would see or hear that Arya freed Edmure while she was at The Twins. Not least because once Walder Frey was dead Edmure became a loose end again, having been seemingly eternally confined to the dungeons earlier in the S6 finale.

      Once Arya killed all the male Freys in the S7 premiere then Edmure became a blatant loose end. His son with Roslin is the heir to the Riverlands, be it via Frey or Tully inheritance. He could reclaim his home, his lands and his honour simply by pressing his son’s claim.

      It would be very strange for them to just forget about Edmure altogether, now that there’s a power vacuum in the Riverlands that he could easily fill. But that’s what many of us thought pre-S7 and nothing came of it, so it’s possible we’ve heard the last of Edmure.

      I would also love to see Jaime turn up at The Twins and convince Edmure to rally the Riverlords and march north. It’d be a perfect opportunity to fulfil the Tully words of Family, Duty, Honour. And even if he ended up getting killed, that’d at least tie up an existing loose end.

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    199. Anon,

      Dany explicitly says that she needs the harvest of The Reach to feed her soldiers.

      So why is the food going to feed Cersei’s soldiers and the Golden Company any worse than feeding the Dothraki, their horses and the Unsullied?

      And how much money does Dany have to spend on the smallfolk, to replace all the food she torched? Is it more than Cersei?

      Every point you think you’re making in Dany’s favour is actually a point against her. Or at least little different from Cersei’s situation.

      As for Tyrion and the slavers, unlike Dany, he didn’t have dragons to threaten them with. He had a few thousand Unsullied and that’s it. And his authority over them was questionable at best.

      Would he have been less of a hindrance to Dany if he had preemptively started a war with the Masters on her behalf, while she was thousands of miles away and they had no idea if she was coming back?

      And bear in mind that the Harpies were still active at that point. In S6E1 the streets of Meereen were empty and every boat in the harbour was torched. After Tyrion’s exploits by S6E8 the streets are bustling and the Harpies are nowhere to be seen.

      As Tyrion says in Episode 9, AND DAENERYS ACCEPTS:

      Tyrion: “Despite appearances, I think you’ll find the city is on the rise… Meereen is strong. Commerce has returned to the markets. The people are behind you… The rebirth of Meereen is the cause of this violence. The Masters cannot let Meereen succeed. Because if Meereen succeeds, a city without slavery, a city without masters, it proves that no-one needs a master.”

      Daenerys: “Good”

      Personally, I think Tyrion;s decision to exploit Daenerys’ reputation among the followers of the Lord of Light may come back to haunt him, as Varys feared. Although, their fascination with the “saviour” was already comfortably on the rise before Tyrion decided to exploit the situation.

      But Tyrion was clearly not the failure you’re desperate to believe he was. Nor is he likely to have been plotting against her the entire time for no apparent reason.

      It’s possible he may turn against Daenerys for some reason, but you really should begin to accept that your favourite character is flawed before it’s too late.

        Quote  Reply

    200. Wolfish,

      Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that. It’s always interesting to hear and discuss other people’s points of view, even if we are all blatantly stabbing wildly in the dark at this stage. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    201. Jay Targ: Jon’s parentage will obviously cause drama within himself, Daenerys, and his siblings/cousins. But I’m interested in how they handle it with the other characters and lords.

      As of now, they haven’t really developed an appetite within the commoners and/or lords wanting to seat a Targaryen on the Throne. So for the appetite to suddenly be created once Jon is revealed to Targaryen would be bizarre. And as far as I remember, the show never delved into Jaime’s guilt towards the death of Rhaenys and Aegon.

      If people start pledging their swords to Jon, my guess is that it would probably have less with him being the “heir” and more towards him as an individual.

      My thought is not that Jaime has an appetite to restore a Targ to the throne per se, but that he may harbor some Stark-related guilt for standing by loyally doing nothing while the Mad King roasted Jon’s uncle and grandfather – not to mention that his son directly ordered the execution of Ned. If he’s now on a mission to make amends for some of the harm that he has done (even if only by inaction) in his previous life, then being handed a persuasive argument that Jon is the rightful heir to the throne might strike him as a good excuse to throw his lot in on the side of the good guys for once and purge his conscience.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Bobby: Night King cannot smash KL !! Think of all the stories you’d be giving up ! No Clegane bowl no Jamie killing the mad queen!! You’d kill too much of the story in my opinion

      Are many people still deeply invested in there being a Cleganebowl? That feels to me like it would be such a cliché at this point.

        Quote  Reply

    203. Wolfish: I’d love to see Jaime’s journey north include a stop at the Twins. We know from Arya’s encounter with the Lannister soldiers that Jaime knows that the Freys are toast. He may well wish to ascertain whether one of the last people he deeply wronged, Edmure Tully, is a) alive and b) willing to enter into an alliance against the AotD. If Jaime is truly invested in the future of Westeros itself above that of House Lannister—and all indications are that he is—it will behoove him to a) free Tully from the dungeon (assuming the Frey women haven’t already done so), b) help him establish control over both the Twins and Riverrun so preparations can be made for battle with either Cersei or the AotD, and c) obtain a complement of fighting men to accompany him north to Winterfell. Thoughts?

      If Bronn’s banter about Jaime now owing him TWO castles is indeed foreshadowing that he is going to end up being awarded lordship of the Twins and a choice of Frey widows for his lady, then it would make a great deal of sense to have Bronn catch up with Jaime on the road en route to resolving the Edmure plot thread. I’d very much like to see that happen, but I don’t think we’ve heard a peep about Tobias Menzies having been cast in Season 8, alas.

        Quote  Reply

    204. Firannion,

      DON’T KILL MY DREAMS, FIRANNION!

      Seriously, though: I know there isn’t enough time to tie up all the loose threads, and I realize that irl many don’t get tied up. But I’ll be really peeved if this is one of the ones left loose.

      On that note: While I always liked Jaime’s character arc, it wasn’t a favorite like, say, Arya’s or Tyrion’s or the Hound’s. I loved his interactions with Brienne in (S4, was it?), and then he dropped off my immediate radar. But unexpectedly to me, my favorite moment in S7 was Jaime leaving KL. The black armor, black horse, and black glove covering the golden hand did me in. I want D&D to do the Jaime-and-Bran reunion as much justice as they (hopefully) do the Arya-and-Hound reunion.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Wolfish:
      Firannion,

      But unexpectedly to me, my favorite moment in S7 was Jaime leaving KL. The black armor, black horse, and black glove covering the golden hand did me in.

      One of the most beautifully shot scenes, and in my top 5 for S7 too. 😊 I find that along with Iain Glen, Maisie, and Rory McCann, Nicolaj has a wonderfully expressive face that can show so much in a character without words. His expression, and then saying “I don’t believe you…” to Cersei was my #1 Jaime moment (and a huge internal cheer from me). That headed north one though, aaaa I love it.

        Quote  Reply

    206. I Agree and fine these Tyrion rumours bizarre. Yes he may turn against Dany due to her actions and/or Jons better claim/appropriateness to the throne, but outright betrayal and swtiching sides to Cersei is extremely unlikely. Now he may cut a deal to spare Cersei for her unborn child I wouldn’t rule that out but nothing else really makes sense.

        Quote  Reply

    207. TYRion certainly cares about Jamie and would protect him however I don’t see how Dany logically plays into that. All pointers are that Jamie will die in the North fighting the white walkers, is Dany going to burn him in that fight and what for considering the greater threat? If Dany does burn him I agree it would turn Tyrion but there zero set up for that.

      I discount the fact Jamie killed the mad king, he had good reason to that, the only other reason is pushing Bran out the window but that will be between the Starks and Jon to decide on that and they won’t with white walkers coming.

        Quote  Reply

    208. I agree Derp there’s clearly lots of theories out there which cannot be debunked given there are no confirmed spoilers. No doubt when the trailer finally drops it will put a lid on some but also fuel others. I wish it would hurry up though and surely only weeks if not days away given what the HBO chief said about getting the trailer this year.

        Quote  Reply

    209. Anon:

      Imagine if Tyrion is revealed to be a villain against Jon and Dany, as I think he will be?Imagine if Melisandre is evil, as I think she is.

      Ho, boy, do our expectations differ! But you’re right–crucial as it is for as many people as possible to set aside differences and work together for the survival of mankind, the pettier squabbles among living humans never quite lose their intrigue.
      As usual I agree with Jon Snowed; cannot wait to find out who’s been right about what, and hopefully January will hold something exciting. I’ve heard that February is likely for a teaser trailer?

        Quote  Reply

    210. But things like Clegane Bowl are just fan Service and far from set in stone. As I said earlier Jamie probably dying in the north so if anyone kills Cersei it will be Tyrion, Dany, Night King or Arya unless she is killed via trial. My guess is Cersei will die by dragon fire of some sort maybe even wildfire. But I don’t discount someone taking her out before she can use wildfire either.

        Quote  Reply

    211. I love that we don’t know how it will play out just that someone will attack Kings Landing in episode 5. Is it the Nights King trying to raise a new army or Dany unleashing fire and blood? At this point my guess is that the White walker army is defeated in episode 4 and that it’s team Jon vs Dany or Cersei in episode 5.

        Quote  Reply

    212. Inga:
      Shelle,

      I’ve heard that some promo is dropping on January 11 and that the first trailer is going to arrive in March (the second one in April)

      Wow, really? Jan 11 would be neat, but March/April for trailers feels so late (especially since the show STARTS in April)—is that typical? I’ve admittedly never paid attention to the timing before. ^^’

        Quote  Reply

    213. S5E8
      TYRION: Have you decided yet whether you’re going to have me killed?
      DAENERYS: It’s probably my safest option.

      TYRION: So here we sit, two terrible children of two terrible fathers.
      DAENERYS: I’m terrible?
      TYRION: I’ve heard stories.

      TYRION: Yes, oddly. He might be the only person in the world that I trust. Besides my brother.
      DAENERYS: The brother who killed my father.
      TYRION: That’s the one.
      DAENERYS: Perhaps I will have you killed after all.
      TYRION: Your queenly prerogative. I had given up on life until Varys convinced me you might be worth living for. You chop off my head? Well, my final days were interesting.

        Quote  Reply

    214. On the recent podcast hosted by this site they hinted that the full trailer is coming during the superbowl. Given that I am not American I don’t actually know when that happens but I assume some time in January.

      We usually get our first full trailer 3-4 months in advance of the premiere so we very likely now only weeks (if not days) away from it dropping.

        Quote  Reply

    215. Jeez I really hope they don’t make us wait that long but it’s probably right at the acceptable borderline with an April release date. Just feels super late also considering the HBO chiefs comments about getting the trailer in 2018 and prior trailer releases for earlier seasons.

        Quote  Reply

    216. Jon Snowed:
      the full trailer is coming during the superbowl. Given that I am not American I don’t actually know when that happens but I assume some time in January

      Speaking up here on behalf of the proud minority of Americans who try our best to pretend that the SuperBowl doesn’t exist… I find it a good day to go places that are usually crowded and don’t have TVs. No way I’m going to sit through hours of real live people gleefully giving one another traumatic brain injuries in hopes of glimpsing a few seconds of fictional live people fighting fictional dead people. I’ll watch the trailer the next day, thanks.

        Quote  Reply

    217. Firannion,

      😂 I’m in that proud minority 🍻
      I figure someone will post the trailer seconds after it airs, so no one needs to watch the nfl cult to see it

      However, if the Chiefs go to the superbowl, then I will most likely watch because KC hasn’t been there since the 70’s, I think, maybe even 60’s lol

        Quote  Reply

    218. Oh say, Maester Mercy, where are You?
      We have to wait about 2 hours for 2019.
      It’s a little bit uncomfortable the last 5 hours and will be the next 5, 6, 7, because my dog is very stressed with all the explosions, that people here think have to be put to fight the night, that ist dark and full of horror.
      It wouldn’t be, if no explosions were put.
      I have warm feet an wet knees.
      Skaal to everyone here, I take a hop on WotW and friends!

        Quote  Reply

    219. S6E5
      VARYS scrunches up his face and stares at KINVARA. KINVARA smiles.

      KINVARA: We serve the same queen. If you are her true friend, you have nothing to fear from me.

        Quote  Reply

    220. S6E8
      VARYS: You made a pact with fanatics.

      TYRION: I did and it worked.

      VARYS: If you shaved your beard with a straight razor, you’d say the razor worked. That doesn’t mean it won’t cut your throat.

        Quote  Reply

    221. So now we are here in 2019, too. Took a little bit longer, but there are many, who still have to go through.
      Good party to You all and good wishes, vi ses!

        Quote  Reply

    222. cos alpha,

      🍻 I’m in Midwest U.S. I’ve still got around 4 1/2 hrs to go.

      Just figured I’d wish everyone good cheer early, as I’m watching my grandson & won’t be online for the most part

      My sisters doggies take stress medication on Independence Day because of all the fireworks here. Poor babies.

        Quote  Reply

    223. Rygritte,

      I think the quotes you posted could be important in Season 8 and are at least deserving of some serious resolution.

      From Seasons 2 to 5 we were led to accept the malign influence of Melisandre, the Lord of Light and the appeal of being the “chosen one” on Stannis’s mental state and morality.

      Then at the end of Season 5 Stannis met his end and Melisandre’s attention shifted to Jon Snow. Attention that he has so far explicitly rejected: “I’m not a god”, “Don’t bring me back”, “What kind of god would do something like that?” and, even though she offers her services to help him defeat the Night King, “If you return to the North, I’ll have you hanged as a murderer”.

      Meanwhile in Seasons 5 and 6 in Volantis and Meereen it was revealed that Daenerys was the subject of all the other red priestesses/priests’ prophecies and devotion.

      The fact that Varys has been warning since Season 2 (when Stannis, Melisandre and the Lord of Light appeared on the scene) about the dangers of fanatics gaining power, only for him to end up from Season 5 onward in direct service to a ruler who already burns “non-believers” alive (“Did you really think we would serve you?”; “You cannot send me to the Wall. You are not my queen”; “If you betray me… I’ll burn you alive”); one whom is the subject of devotion by fanatics and appeared to like the sound of being considered a prophesied heroine; surely must come to some conclusion.

      I genuinely find it depressing when people say that there’s no evidence for Dany becoming problematic in Season 8.

      It may be that all Varys’ fears come to nothing. All those scenes they dedicated to Varys explaining his backstory and the fears he holds. All the scenes depicting followers of the Lord of Light turning to Dany (“Her dragons are fire made flesh. A gift from the Lord of Light… The dragons will purify non-believers by the thousands”). Perhaps they’re all leading in a different direction completely.

      But it’s rather absurd to suggest that there’s no evidence that Dany may end up on the wrong side in this story after all.

      It could also explain Dany’s telegraphed fascination with Jon’s resurrection, compared to Jon’ reluctance to admit it. Perhaps it illustrates Jon’s rejection of his apparent divine status, whereas it still holds some appeal to Dany.

      Of course, Dany inadvertently sacrificed Rhaego’s life in pursuit of Drogo’s failed resurrection. Now she meets a man who she knows has been successfully brought back to life by the magic of the Lord of Light… the majority of whose devotees now just happen to worship her… could she be tempted by the appeal of magic/witches again for some reason?

      I mean, is this all really heading nowhere? Did they place all these ducks in a row for no reason?

        Quote  Reply

    224. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Now she meets a man who she knows has been successfully brought back to life by the magic of the Lord of Light… the majority of whose devotees now just happen to worship her…

      AND he’s the heir to the iron throne. She will doubt herself for the first time until boat baby starts kicking.

      S7E3
      DAENERYS: I have been sold like a brood mare. I have been chained and betrayed, raped and defiled. Do you know what kept me standing through all those years in exile? Faith. Not in any gods. Not in myths and legends. In myself.

        Quote  Reply

    225. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: It may be that all Varys’ fears come to nothing.

      It gives him more reason to betray Dany by telling Westeros about Aegon, especially after witnessing his leadership skills in Winterfell & her initial failure to win over the Northern lords.

        Quote  Reply

    226. Chilli,

      That would make sense. If he doesn’t live, I think he would consider his own death a blessing, a mercy.

      I would like to see him make it & see what he could do with his life if he survives, never being, (what society believes to be)fully functioning

      I know it’s a long shot, but I hope Yara survives & becomes 1st queen of iron isles

        Quote  Reply

    227. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      People forget Dany’s “worst impulses” – those that her advisors were supposed to rein in. For example:

      S6e9 (Dany & Tyrion, during bombardment of Mereen)

      Dany: “Shall we begin?”
      Tyrion: “Do we have a plan?”
      Dany: “I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their cities to the dirt. That is my plan. …You don’t approve?”
      Tyrion: “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing when the Lannister armies were at his gates? Probably not. Well, he told my brother and Jaime told me. He had caches of wildfire hidden under the Red Keep, the Guild halls, the Sept of Baelor, all the major thoroughfares. He would have burned every one of his citizens. The loyal ones and the traitors. Every man, woman, and child. That’s why Jaime killed him.”
      Dany: “This is entirely different.”
      Tyrion: “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different. I’d like to suggest an alternate approach.”

      Yet, when it came to the Tarly BBQ, she simply dismissed Tyrion’s alternate approach. That will certainly come back to bite her in the a**.

        Quote  Reply

    228. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Not to jump on the bandwagon (some more), but there’s got to be a reason why Tyrion and Varys were commiserating that Dany won’t listen to Tyrion’s advice. (It’s not fair to blame Tyrion that his “clever plans” have failed. He’s a shrewd political advisor, not an experienced battle commander.)

      Then there was this incisive discussion between Cersei and Tyrion about the difference between Cersei and Dany in S7e7:

      Cersei: But eventually, you want everyone to bend the knee to her.
      Tyrion: “Yes.”
      Cersei: “Why?”
      Tyrion: “Because I think she will make the world a better place.”
      Cersei: “You said she’d destroy King’s Landing.”
      Tyrion: “She knows herself. She chose an advisor who would check her worst impulses instead of feeding them.
      That’s the difference between you.”
      Cersei: “I don’t care about checking my worst impulses. I don’t care about making the world a better place. Hang the world…”

      So… if Dany is dismissing the advice of those advisors she chose to check her worst impulses (like Tyrion was able to do in S6e9 but couldn’t do in S7), Tyrion’s professed justification for preferring Dany loses some of its vitality.

      If Tyrion and Varys come to believe another leader “with the right family name, beloved by the people” would be better for the realm, then what?

        Quote  Reply

    229. Sister Kisser,

      I’m going to try one last time to reply to your 12/26 comment about LF’s “trial.” Of my comments gets diverted to “That Page Not Found”, I’ll assume the Lord of Light vetoed it.

        Quote  Reply

    230. Ok. Last attempt. I’ll separate it into two or three parts and see if that works.

      Part 1

      em>Attempted Dec.26 re-post of reply to Sister Kisser)
      Here’s an example of when I thought LF would have tried to talk his way out of the accusations against him, instead of uncharacteristically “folding like a cheap suitcase.” In answering Sansa’s first charge, LF flat out admitted throwing Lysa out the Moon Door, offering only a feeble excuse:

      Sansa: “You murdered our aunt, Lysa Arryn. You pushed her through the Moon Door and watched her fall. Do you deny it?”
      LF: “I did it to protect you.”
      Sansa: “You did it to take power in the Vale.”

        Quote  Reply

    231. Part 2

      I modified an excerpt from that scene in S7e7 to illustrate a different way I thought LF could have responded:

      Sansa: “You stand accused of murder, you stand accused of treason. How do you answer these charges… Lord Baelish?”
      Arya: “My sister asked you a question.”
      LF: “Lady Sansa, forgive me. I’m a bit confused.”
      Sansa: “Which charges confuse you? Let’s start with the simplest one. You murdered our aunt, Lysa Arryn. You pushed her through the Moon Door and watched her fall. Do you deny it?”
      LF: “Wait, what? YOU denied it! She committed suicide. You said so yourself. That’s what you swore during the inquest at the Vale! Do you deny it?
      Sansa: “Uh…”
      LF: “Remember? You were brought in for ‘unadulterated’ testimony. You said you had to tell the truth. You were specifically asked: ‘Tell us what happened to your aunt, Sansa.’ And you answered…

        Quote  Reply

    232. Part 3

      Sansa: “You knew her well, my lords, my lady. You knew she was a troubled woman. She always loved Lord Baelish. She told me herself. From the moment he arrived at the gates of Riverrun, a boy of eight carrying everything he owned in a little sack. She confessed to me she never loved Lord Arryn. She did as her father commanded, as so many of us have. When the gods finally allowed her to be with Lord Baelish, she was so happy. For a time. My aunt was a jealous lady. She was terrified that Lord Baelish didn’t love her anymore. That he would abandon her for a younger woman. And then one day she saw him kiss me.”
      Lord Royce: “Lady Sansa!”
      Sansa: “It was a peck on the cheek, Lord Royce, nothing more. Lord Baelish is my uncle now, in truth, by marriage. He’s always been so kind to me. I was so happy to be here, to be free. All because of him. But my aunt turned on me. She cursed me. Called me a wh*re. Promised to throw me through the Moon Door. When Lord Baelish tried to calm her, she struck him. Said she didn’t want to live anymore. She stood on the edge of that Moon Door. He tried to reason with her. Promised her she was the only one he had ever loved, but she stepped through those doors and she was–”
      (Crocodile tears…)

        Quote  Reply

    233. Part 4 of 4

      LF: “That’s what happened to your Aunt Lysa. Those were your exact words right after her suicide. Do you deny it!”
      Sansa: “No, but…”
      LF: “I’m only here because you sent me an urgent raven message beseeching me to bring the Knights of the Vale as your army was badly outnumbered. You’d all be dead right now if I hadn’t dropped everything and come to your rescue. Do you deny it!”
      Sansa: “I can’t. You’re right about that, but…”
      LF: “And now, three years after your aunt’s death, for the first time you concoct this nonsenses about murder and ambush me with this staged ‘trial.’ I suppose ‘Lady of Winterfell’ isn’t enough for you. You want me out of the way so you can be Lady of the Vale too. So you made up this scurrilous lie.”
      Sansa: “That’s not true! I did it because honor demands …”
      LF: “You did it to seize power in the Vale.”
      Sansa: “Huh? Me? No!”
      LF: “You’re conflicted and power hungry. This is all a sham. Rigged! Wight Hunt! I mean… Witch Hunt!”

        Quote  Reply

    234. Ten Bears,

      Well, indeed. All of these quotes and plot strands are real. So what do they mean? It’s a lot of screen time to dedicate to things that supposedly won’t matter in the grand scheme.

      Or are they simply meant to precipitate the downfalls of Tyrion and Varys, with no negative connotations for Dany despite her being central to their actions these days and crucial to the conclusion of this story?

      That doesn’t make sense to me.

        Quote  Reply

    235. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      For that matter, I don’t know if Jon is starry-eyed (or I can think of a crude term for his blind faith in Dany). However, I don’t see how she’s going to show up in the north to a hero’s welcome. (Jon should’ve paved the way and should NOT have abdicated as king before telling his people.) Unless I’m wrong, none of the Snow Patrol have arrived yet to tell of Dany’s exploits at the Frozen Lake.

      To the contrary, here’s what the people think of The Mad King’s Daighter:

      S7e2 (Jon announces plan to travel to Dragonstone)
      Royce: “Your Grace, with respect I must agree with Lady Sansa. I remember the Mad King all too well. A Targaryen cannot be trusted, nor can a Lannister.”
      Lord Glover: “We called your brother king, and then he rode south and lost his kingdom.”
      ————-
      S7e7 (Dany & Jon making plans to travel to the North)
      Jorah: “Perhaps you should fly to Winterfell, Your Grace. You have many enemies in the North. Thousands fell fighting your father. All it takes is one angry man with a crossbow. He’ll see your silver hair on the kingsroad and know that one well-placed bolt will make him a hero. The man who killed the conqueror.”
      Jon: “It’s your decision, Your Grace. But if we’re going to be allies in this war, it’s important for the Northerners to see us as allies. If we sail to White Harbor together, I think it sends a better message.”
      Dany: “I’ve not come to conquer the North. I’m coming to save the North. We sail together.”
      —————
      S7e2 Cersei’s “Mad King’s Daughter” pitch (to assembled Lords – and this was before the Drogon & Dothraki slaughterfest and Tarly BBQ):

      Cersei: “If the Mad King’s daughter takes the Iron Throne, she’ll destroy the realm as we know it. Some of you are bannermen of House Tyrell. But House Tyrell is in open rebellion against the crown. With their help, the Mad King’s daughter has ferried an army of savages to our shores mindless Unsullied soldiers who will destroy your castles and your holdfasts, Dothraki heathens who will burn your villages to the ground, rape and enslave your women, and butcher your children without a second thought. This is how Olenna Tyrell rewards centuries of service and loyalty.
      You all remember the Mad King. You remember the horrors he inflicted upon his people. His daughter is no different. In Essos, her brutality is already legendary. She crucified hundreds of noblemen in Slaver’s Bay. And when she grew bored of that, she fed them to her dragons.
      It is my solemn duty to protect the people, and I will. But I need your help, my lords. We must stand together, all of us if we hope to stop her.”

      [P.S. Well-written speech. Fact-based. And repetition of “Mad King’s Daughter” for emphasis.]

      Team Dany/Jon could’ve used some heavy-duty advance public relations. But just showing up together on a boat – followed by tens of thousands hungry Dothraki screamers and Unsullied???

      Sansa, if you’re the “Savvy Politician” we’ve been hearing about, now would be a good time to show it…

        Quote  Reply

    236. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Ten Bears,

      Well, indeed. All of these quotes and plot strands are real. So what do they mean? It’s a lot of screen time to dedicate to things that supposedly won’t matter in the grand scheme. ….

      I’m still trying to make sense of LF’s “how can I piss off Jon Snow?” encounter in the WF crypts in S7e2. Jon left. LF got terminated while Jon was away. Too little time left to waste on useless filler. What was the purpose of that scene?

      (*Dons tinfoil hat*): Only explanation in my mind was to solidify Jon Snow as the Valonqar.

        Quote  Reply

    237. Totally off-topic, but…

      …Saner Half and I are re-watching in breathless anticipation of S8, and tonight we watched the episode where Brienne and Jaime first meet. And before their meeting, in a conversation with Catelyn, Brienne asks, “Who wants to die defending a Lannister?”

      OOF.

        Quote  Reply

    238. Ten Bears,
      Yeah, that scene seems unnecessary. Valonqar theory sounds good to me

      I also thought maybe they just wanted another scene of Jon in the crypt

      It seems like they stuffed several Winterfell crypt scenes in the last two seasons. It makes me suspect the crypt are important for the end game

        Quote  Reply

    239. Wolfish,

      Yes, I’ve been thinking about this statement, as another poster mentioned it upthread, maybe SisterKisser or Rygrette?

      I hope Brienme lives. If she must die 😢, then I hope they due her ending justice

        Quote  Reply

    240. Ten Bears:
      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Unless I’m wrong, none of the Snow Patrol have arrived yet to tell of Dany’s exploits at the Frozen Lake.

      Jon, lying in bed on the boat, staring at the ceiling:

      I need your grace
      To remind me
      To find my own

      If I lay here
      If I just lay here
      Would you lie with me and just forget the world?

      Dany: “The hell are you on about?”

        Quote  Reply

    241. MaesterMercy:
      Ten Bears,

      It seems like they stuffed several Winterfell crypt scenes in the last two seasons. It makes me suspect the crypt are important for the end game

      Well, we know that at least one S8 scene was shot in the mouth of a cave. It’s not a great stretch of the imagination to suggest that we will see some characters – perhaps even a group of Northern refugees
      – fleeing the big battle at Winterfell via the crypts, which lead to caverns with eventual passages to the surface. Maester Luwin advised Theon to abandon the doomed Ironborn occupation of Winterfell and evade the Bolton encirclement that way, so it’s implied that at least some members of the Stark household know (or knew) how to find the way out. It would be a neat little homage to Tolkien’s Battle of the Hornburg/Glittering Caves of Aglarond if GRRM had a large contingent of non-combatants sent that way, though what we see onscreen is likely to involve only a small group.

      But we’ve also been teased for a very long time that the crypts conceal deeper secrets besides moldering Starks/Kings in the North and an emergency escape route. The tinfoil theories are manifold, fascinating and sometimes quite wacky (Arthur Dayne’s sword Dawn, Rhaegar’s harp, slumbering ice dragons or dragon eggs). The fact that there are hot springs under Winterfell could even be taken as foreshadowing of some sort of eventual seismic cataclysm à la the Doom of Valyria!

      I personally suspect that the TV script will include discovery in the crypts of some sort of Macguffin confirming Jon’s parentage, such as a marriage certificate, stashed there by Ned. Wild-card prospect: dead Starks popping inconveniently out of their vaults if the Night King starts raising corpses on the battlefield to refresh his troops.

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    242. Firannion,

      I can’t wait to find out the crypts significance 😄

      In season 6, I believe it was, I kept wondering when Theon & Sansa were going to escape underground. Lol, I thought maybe they would save the other Lady Bolton & her baby too or the old ‘the North remembers lady 😂

      The stone statues under Winterfell coming to life, to help the humans above would be a fantastic surprise. Dragons would be even better 🍻

      I’ll settle for a macgruffin though

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    243. I don’t think Dany will be on the throne in the end. In fact, I believe that both Dany and Jon will die in season 8, so neither of them will rule.

      I also believe that there will be conflict between Dany and the others at Winterfell. I also believe that Varys will betray Dany. However, where I differ from some others is that I don’t believe we will see some kind of “Team Dany” vs. “Team Jon” conflict in season 8, and I don’t think Dany will “go mad”. I mean, what’s the point of the existence of Dany’s character if she just turns out to be like her father in the end? Is this supposed to be some “we’re all the same in the end” cop-out? I don’t know. That’s partially why I don’t believe she’ll go mad. There doesn’t appear to be any point to it other than to conjure up cheap drama. Besides, we already have a mad queen in Cersei, so why do we need another one?

      In order for some “Team Dany” vs. “Team Jon” conflict to happen, Jon would have to completely break character. Not only would he have to enthusiastically embrace his claim to the throne over Dany’s to the point where he’s willing to go to war for it, he would also have to approve everyone on his side actively fighting against Dany’s side. Seeing as though Jon’s main concern is the AOTD and not squabbling over the throne, I don’t see any of this happening at all. Jon believes that anyone who breathes is considered an ally to help defeat the AOTD. Am I supposed to believe that he’s going to suddenly abandon that because he has a claim to the throne? I guess we’ll find out in a few months.

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    244. Ten Bears,

      Therein lies the lingering question of Jon’s statement that “They’ll all come to see you for what you are”. I mean, talk about a statement that’s absolutely drenched with a sense of foreboding.

      It’s already loaded with irony for many reasons, not least the fact that it is Jon whom everyone will soon come to see for what he is: a Targaryen, And given that he barely knows Dany. And considering that he personally had to coach her back from unleashing her dragons on King’s Landing. And given that, as far as we’re aware, he’s in the dark about the worst thing she’s done since she met him (the Tarly execution).

      The situation is primed for an ironic twist in that “they” were spot on in their initial assessment and it is Jon who belatedly comes to see Dany for what she really is.

      Or alternatively that it is Dany coming to see Jon for what he is – a rival for the throne – that leads to her revealing her own true colours.

      Once again, I just find it hard to believe that they included all the Mad King/’s daughter references, while having Dany emulate at face value the Mad King’s behaviour, just for it to turn out to be meaningless.

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    245. Wolfish: “Who wants to die defending a Lannister?”

      A Lannister? Given the number of times The Rains of Castamere was sung, whistled, played, & referenced throughout the show, I find it hard to believe any Lannisters survive. However, in the books, I find it hard to believe Jaime, Cersei & Tyrion aren’t Targs, especially since Tywin’s number 1 priority was his legacy and maintaining House Lannister’s power through his children.

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    246. Wolfish:
      Totally off-topic, but…

      …Saner Half and I are re-watching in breathless anticipation of S8, and tonight we watched the episode where Brienne and Jaime first meet. And before their meeting, in a conversation with Catelyn, Brienne asks, “Who wants to die defending a Lannister?”

      OOF.

      I mentioned the same thing up-thread a few days ago.

      To me, that quote definitely spells doom for Brienne, but we’ll see how it all turns out.

        Quote  Reply

    247. Mr Derp: In order for some “Team Dany” vs. “Team Jon” conflict to happen, Jon would have to completely break character.

      Not really. This already happened in the show when LF & Northern lords were Team Sansa after Jon left, but Sansa & Arya were Team Jon.

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    248. Rygritte,

      Yes, really.

      Jon had nothing to do with the Arya/Sansa squabble because he was gone and didn’t know anything about it. Do you really think Jon would’ve picked a side if he knew about it? Hell no. He would’ve tried to mediate, not divide.

      He’ll have to get involved this time since he’ll be there. I personally don’t see Jon participating in something so divisive, but again, I could be wrong. It’s just my gut feeling based on getting to know the character for 7 seasons.

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    249. Mr Derp, Right, I’m saying teams will form initially regardless of what Jon & Dany want. The teams won’t disobey orders, but they’ll have opinions about who they think they should follow. I don’t think it will be Jon vs Dany because boat baby.

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    250. Rygritte,

      Agree. No matter what Dany or Jon do or say, each of their followers has their own beliefs.
      None of it will matter once the NK arrives
      Then Dany & Jon will have their peace baby
      I’m hoping she gives birth to a dragon 😄

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    251. Rygritte,

      And that would be quite normal reaction, wouldn’t it?
      For most of the people the danger of the AotD isn’t more than a fairytale old Nans talked them over from birthbed on. They will see a danger in this Targaryen blonde, who comes with intent to lead/to rule them. With creepy dragons and an army, that can’t be stand and can’t be feed.
      Some will believe, what the glorious seven and Sam and Bran and the wildlings saw, they will join Jon and his aim, Targaryen or not, because they still see the Stark in him, especially, if Sansa and Bran and Arya join him, too.
      The other people will be against everything and will only think of themselves and run.
      Dany with her dragons, the Unsullied and the Dothraki will be a third party in this mess. and it would become hard for Jon and Dany, to get all fractions under one coat.

      I wonder, who would like whom.
      Would Sansa like Dany? In one way I think, no, never – why should she? She has every reason to mistrust everyone besides her pack, and we saw, that one time she even mistrusted two of her pack (Jon, Arya).
      On the other hand we saw, that Sansa ist able to make friend with other women, needed it so much and was glad and thankful about/with (Shae, Margery – even Lysa for a while). And she and Dany share similar experience (sold, abused, betrayed…).
      Would Arya like Dany?
      Arya is because of her experience in general distrustful, but she learned in the HoBaW to look deep in the human soul (what Sansa didn’t learn yet, because she’s a slow learner). She will wait and test Dany and her motivations, I think, and IF Dany “is clean”, she will respect her and take her and Jon’s side, because in that case, there are no differences between Jon’s and Dany’s concerns.
      But I don’t think, Arya would adore Dany or so, considering that she became too free in her mind. I’m afraid , Arya can’t find peace and happiness for herself anymore.
      I wonder.
      We will see.
      At the moment I’m not very optimistic, but I’m glad, that I have to wait a while, until S8 starts, there’s so much to speculate!

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    252. Boat-baby?
      No boat-baby.
      Perhaps they think, there’s one en route, they hope, but then comes Melisandre with all the lorde of light and has a great idea…

        Quote  Reply

    253. If Jon and Dany were to come into conflict then it’d most likely take place once the Night King is defeated.

      I don’t think anybody would suggest that Jon would sabotage an alliance necessary to defeat the Army of the Dead, especially after all his efforts to convince Dany to suspend her quest for the Iron Throne. Obviously that doesn’t make any sense as things stand.

      But defeating the Army of the Dead is not the only question hanging over the future of Westeros.

      Cersei sits on the Iron Throne. Dany intends to take that throne. Jon now has a claim to that throne.

      If the Night King makes it to King’s Landing then, sure, it’s likely to be a last man standing situation. But if any combo of Jon, Dany and Cersei survives the invasion, then they’re gonna have to determine who will oversee the future of Westeros one way or another.

      And there’s a lot of potential for shifting loyalties and perspectives in Season 8. The primary example being Jon;s parentage. I mean, what is the point of Jon’s secret parentage if not to alter the political landscape at a crucial point in the story?

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    254. Ten Bears,

      I quite enjoyed your 4-part hypothetical scenario of Littlefinger Rumpoling Sansa and out-maneuvring her with a successful defense. He was capable of it, but the Starklings caught him on the back foot. With a little warning, he could have slithered through the charges. But IMO the Pack surprised him with the trial so he had no plan, no excuse, no escape.

      “Sansa, if you’re the “Savvy Politician” we’ve been hearing about, now would be a good time to show it…”

      Agreed. But judging from Hibberd’s article AND the three-second teaser where she gave the evil eye to someone (probably Dany), I doubt that will happen.

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    255. Firannion,

      Yeah, but what was that weenie LF doing in the crypts? Even Jon said “You don’t belong here.”

      Either it was wasted time…or there was some (future) purpose for it.

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    256. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      “Therein lies the lingering question of Jon’s statement that “They’ll all come to see you for what you are”. I mean, talk about a statement that’s absolutely drenched with a sense of foreboding.”

      That statement dredges up embarrassing memories of my younger days, when I’d try to make excuses for bringing home a new girlfriend who my brothers warned was bad news. And of course, they turned out to be right. And I turned out to be an idiot. 😕

        Quote  Reply

    257. MaesterMercy,

      I still want Dany to give birth to a half-human, half-dragon hybrid. I know the description of her stillborn baby in S1 was grotesque – and maybe came from an unreliable narrator – but they sure seemed like it was a human/dragon mutant.

      (*removes tinfoil hat… reluctantly*)

        Quote  Reply

    258. cos alpha,

      Arya idolizes dragon-riding Targaryen women. Watch the look on her face and the tone of her voice when she described Visenya Targaryen to Tywin. Arya’s gonna pester Dany for an autograph and a selfie with her as soon as she arrives.

        Quote  Reply

    259. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Why thank you!
      I had a whole “defense” for LF for ALL of the “charges.” However, the last time I tried to post it, it went straight to “That Page Not Found” Purgatory – probably because of its length – or because I got goofy and decided to unnecessarily insert Stannis and Lyanna Mormont into the scene.

      Example: Someone asks about Arya’s kill count.
      Lyanna Mormont: “62!”
      Sansa: “I thought it was less.”
      Hooded Spectator: “Fewer.”
      Sansa: “What?”
      Hooded Spectator: “Nothing.”

      Anyway, before Sansa’s “Gotcha!” introduction was even complete, LF should’ve known something was amiss. When Sansa said: “You stand accused of murder, you stand accused of treason”, that couldn’t refer to Arya. She hasn’t been accused of killing anybody (they knew of).

      I got fooled though. I thought the show had been building up to a “Perry Mason Moment” when LF would be condemned by his own words for deceiving Catelyn (and causing her to betray Robb) with the bogus Kingslayer-for-Arya&Sansa hostage exchange, which LF knew all along was a deception. But that never came up.

      The other “charges” had no evidence to back them up – except for visions of a magic three-eyed bird.

        Quote  Reply

    260. Ten Bears,

      Yeah, Ten, I hear you. But I agree with SRR above that they caught LF unprepared, and also, the trial was decided before it began. You can also chalk it up to some lazy writing by the showrunners, in the interest of moving things along. (Wouldn’t be the first time)

        Quote  Reply

    261. Sister Kisser,

      That trial-by-ambush did not reflect well on House Stark. When Tyrion was put on trial in the Vale, at least he had some time to prepare a defense – albeit in a sky call with Mord beating him every time he spoke.

      (From S1e6)
      Lysa: “Mord, take him back to the dungeon. But this time find a smaller cell with a steeper floor.”
      Tyrion: “Is this how justice is done in the Vale? You accuse me of crimes, I deny them, so you throw me into a cell to freeze and starve? Where is the king’s justice? I am accused and demand a trial!”
      Lysa: “If you’re tried and found guilty, then by the king’s own laws you will pay with your life.”
      Tyrion: “I understand the law…”

      I just don’t get how Sansa acted as prosecutor, judge and (with an assist from ASNAWP) executioner – after giving the accused thirty seconds to be apprised of the charges against him.

      Now, if LF had chosen trial by combat, that would have been fun. After Sansa asked the crowd “Who will stand for the pimp?”, there would be muffled laughter but no volunteers. Then, after looking around to see which Stark guarsdsman would be his adversary, he’d be informed that he’d be facing off against Arya. To even the odds, she’d offer to fight him blindfolded. And this time, unlike the offscreen match vs. the Waif, we’d get to see Arya go full-on Meryn F*cking Trant on Littlefinger even without the benefit of eyesight.

      As it was, LF’s execution was too quick and relatively painless. For all the deaths and misery he caused, he got off way too easy.

        Quote  Reply

    262. MaesterMercy:
      Ten Bears,

      I hope Dany gives Arya a ride 🌝

      ————

      Along those lines, about a year ago I posted my own “fanfic” scenario of how I envisioned Arya fangirling over meeting Dany:

      Arya (gushing): “Aunt Dany…I mean Queen Daenerys…I mean Your Grace…Squeeee!”

      Dany: “Excuse me?”

      Arya: (gulp) “It’s just that …I just wanted to tell you… you’re my biggest fan…I mean I’m your biggest fan!” (face palms; starts hyperventilating).

      Dany: “You alright?”

      Arya (blushing): “It’s just that….You’re even more awesome in person and now I can’t catch my breath. I’m so sorry! ….I’m such a dork.”

      Dany: “No, you’re cool as f*ck, my Princess…Hey, how’d you like to go dragon riding with me? Look at the world from high up in the sky. Maybe we’ll spot some ice zombies to flambe. I can show you how to do the Dracarys! command.”

      Arya: (faints)

        Quote  Reply

    263. If Dany dies as some experts are predicting then I’m starting to believe there won’t actually be a boat baby. I just don’t see how both can happen without a death in child birth or a time jump.

        Quote  Reply

    264. We know from shooting spoilers that

      Jon will meet with Cersei in Kings Landing in episode 5 or 6

      so I believe it will be either Dany or the Nights King attacking and it may not be the same sides we see at the start of the season.

        Quote  Reply

    265. Ten Bears,

      I don’t believe that. Yes, Visenya was an idol, a kind of popstar for her – when Arya was a child and wanted to become a brave. Now as young adult she is. May be, she as an adult now discovers – as everyone of us did -, that idols are normal failable humans and not the same as the old stories told.
      In no case I see Arya loose her mind and regular skincolour in front of Dany.
      But perhaps my wish sired my thoughts…

        Quote  Reply

    266. Jon Snowed,

      There are time jumps anyway. The time to go to Winterfell will take a while, they won’t show that. We don’t know how long the Army of The Dead will attack them, fleeing will also take time. And the problems with Cersei and Euron will need some time to be resolved. The baby can also be born 2-3 months early because of the stress, that happens in real life too. And maybe it won’t be a normal living and breathing baby anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    267. Chilli,

      I’m unclear about distances and travel time – not that the show doesn’t play fast and loose with them anyway….

      I don’t know how long it’ll take for the S.S. Boatsex to arrive at White Harbor, and then for the passengers to reach WF. I can never tell how fast or slow the AotD can travel. Sometimes they seem like they’ve overdosed on Xanax and trudge along at 2 mph, and other times they run like Olympic sprinters. Now that LF and his top secret jet pack technology are gone, who knows how fast news – and people – can travel? I guess it’s as fast or slow as the plot requires.

        Quote  Reply

    268. cos alpha,

      It depends: If the members of the Snow Patrol Dany rescued can tell Arya about Dany’s heroics, she will be impressed. And we’re not talking about a gaggle of wusses; we’re talking about seasoned warriors: Sandor Clegane; her brother/cousin Jon; Ser Jorah; Beric?; Tormund?; and maybe Gendry though he split before the fireworks began. Perhaps if RoboBran can stop perving on couples in their intimate moments long enough he too can report what happened at the Frozen Lake.

        Quote  Reply

    269. Yes it could happen but I am beginning to think it’s unlikely. If Dany is pregnant then it surely means she won’t be fighting the Army of the Dead and likely is showing when they reach Winterfall but then I think they would need to announce it in the first episode as she will get a frosty welcome from the Northerners.

      Likewise if the baby is born earlier where is it when Dany or Nights King attack Kings Landing?

      I could be way wrong here of course it’s just my theory.

        Quote  Reply

    270. Ten Bears,

      Wouldn’t Jon being stabbed to death and brought back to life help with maturity? Yes, Myrcella died in Jaime’s arms, but come on. He was stabbed in the heart by an eleven year old. I think he has probably matured some.

        Quote  Reply

    271. Ten Bears,

      How fun! I love it! Looking forward to a similar scene in S8 🍻

      However, I see Sansa fainting at this convo instead. I don’t think Arya gets the vapors 😂

      Maybe Dany & Arya see Nymeria & her wolf pack from their high perch flying around 😄

        Quote  Reply

    272. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: And there’s a lot of potential for shifting loyalties and perspectives in Season 8. The primary example being Jon;s parentage. I mean, what is the point of Jon’s secret parentage if not to alter the political landscape at a crucial point in the story?

      I would agree, but it all depends on where they go with it. Jon is not the type of person to embrace an opportunity to become a king. If he does end up pursuing the IT, it would have to be a scenario similar to what happened when he became Lord Commander. Sam, or someone else, would have to do all of the campaigning for him. Or, perhaps no campaigning would be necessary if Jon kills the NK and all of Westeros knows about it. The people might demand Jon as their king, but who knows.

      It’s going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. I can be convinced that Dany will go all “fire and blood” in season 8, but it would take a lot of convincing. As I’ve said previously, I haven’t seen Dany specifically do anything that articulates how mad she supposedly is. She killed the Tarlys and wanted to crucify all of the masters, which honestly, I didn’t think was a sign of going mad. They pretty much all deserved it, though both decisions were somewhat controversial. No more controversial to me than Sansa feeding Ramsey to the dogs or any other number of things we’ve seen on this show.

      What would be the impetus for Dany going off the deep end and going mad in season 8? I could see the following scenarios making this possible:

      * She gets pregnant, but her baby dies, leaving her with no hope for a succession plan, so she just goes all fire and blood on everyone.

      * She loses her trusted advisors (I don’t completely buy this one though. It would take an awful lot for Jorah to abandon her. Besides, don’t ALL kings/queens need trusted advisors around? Isn’t that what Tywin was telling Tommen in season 4? The show acts like Dany needs trusted advisors around to keep her from going completely crazy, but I haven’t really seen that. She wanted to bring fire and blood to the Red Keep, and that is supposed to make her crazy? I’m not so sure. Is that any more deadly than a long, protracted siege, which is what Tyrion was hoping for? Going directly after the Red Keep would at least target those loyal to House Lannister. A siege would do nothing but hurt the smallfolk. The rich can afford to last longer through a siege.)

      * She gets jealous of Jon’s better claim to the throne and throws the biggest temper tantrum of all time. (I think Dany is above that kind of pettiness, but I could be wrong)

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    273. Jon Snowed,

      So Incest Bastard Baby Bowl is going to happen, isn’t it. 🙁

      Baby Sam & WW brothers vs. BoatBaby & Jon + Dany vs. Tyvek Lannister & Cersei.*

      To rip off “Juno”, maybe Cersei’s got a food baby.

        Quote  Reply

    274. Ten Bears,

      Ya know, I agree. I would have quite liked a trial by combat scenario. Arya could have reopened that scar her uncle left him with. And a slower death would have indeed been more just.

        Quote  Reply

    275. Mr Derp,

      I agree that if Jon were to press his claim for the Throne it’d probably be out of necessity or at others’ urging.

      As for Dany and her need for counsel. Each monarch obviously needs support in different ways, as Tywin outlined to Tommen. Baelor the Blessed, Orys I and Robert Baratheon all had their own individual shortcomings. Tommen’s failing was that he was too timid and impressionable; allowing Cersei, the High Sparrow and to a lesser extent Margaery (mainly because she didn’t have much of an opportunity to do so) to walk all over him.

      In Dany’s case they’ve now specifically stated that she requires her advisers to rein in her worst impulses.

      And we certainly have plenty of evidence for this over the seasons:

      – Ser Barristan failed to prevent her from crucifying the Masters of Meereen en masse, regardless of guilt.
      – Jorah managed to talk her out of having the the Masters of Yunkai executed en masse (btw, this was one episode after she’d heard Hizdahr testify to his crucified father’s innocence).
      – Ser Barristan convinced her not to have a Master summarily executed in one episode. Three episodes later, after Ser Barristan was killed, she executes a Master by feeding him to her dragons. His guilt or innocence is unknown.
      – Tyrion convinces her not to execute all the Masters and raze their cities to the ground upon her return to Meereen.
      – Jon talks her out of torching the Red Keep / King’s Landing.
      – Tyrion fails to talk her out of burning a father and son alive (similar to her father) for refusing to bend the knee.

      Like it or not, that’s a pretty obvious pattern. And she’s also had people like Daario and Olenna encouraging her to “be a dragon”.

      It’s easy to dismiss these instances because they were all supposedly bad guys. Except that in some instances she clearly didn’t care about guilt or innocence. And in others she was threatening to destroy entire castles and cities.

      She’s still considered a good person rather than a tyrant because of the counsel she’s received across the seasons.

      What if Tyrion and Varys abandon her? What if Jorah dies? Or Missandei and Grey Worm? What if another of her dragons dies? What if her armies are depleted and her chances of claiming the Iron Throne from smug, backstabbing Cersei, after all she’s sacrificed, look like slipping through her fingers unless she does something drastic? What if she has a company of malevolent Red Priestesses urging her to “be a dragon”?

      And that’s before even mentioning the other two scenarios you suggested of Jon’s claim usurping her own or a tragic pregnancy leading her to lash out.

      In my opinion there is more than enough potential ammunition to lead Daenerys to cross the line.

      And for the record, I don’t really like using these descriptions of her going mad or crazy, because they give the impression of her going clinically insane like her father, screaming “burn them all” and laughing as people burn, which obviously sounds extreme with only 6 episodes remaining.

      But Dany has executed hundreds of people in one go. She has burned hundreds of men alive in battle. She has threatened to burn entire castles and cities. Therefore the possibility of her committing an atrocity, regardless of specific motivation, and coming into conflict with characters that no longer see her as the best option to rule Westeros, is not at all far-fetched as far as I’m concerned.

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    276. I don’t think Dany will become a mad queen. I think all of the references to it are to make us think she might, to indicate it’s possible, and/or to foreshadow instances of impulsiveness and questionable decisions.

        Quote  Reply

    277. Ten Bears:
      MaesterMercy,

      I still want Dany to give birth to a half-human, half-dragon hybrid. I know the description of her stillborn baby in S1 was grotesque – and maybe came from an unreliable narrator – but they sure seemed like it was a human/dragon mutant.

      There are a whole lot of ways that Dany’s (presumed) pregnancy could go awry. I’m inclined to suspect that Mirri Maz Duur’s description of stillborn Rhaego was highly fanciful, motivated by her wish to punish Dany in any way possible for the atrocities of the Dothraki against the Lamb People. We don’t have specific corroboration from her handmaidens that the child had rudimentary wings or scales or any of that stuff that MMD claimed, and Jorah never saw the corpse, which was hurriedly buried.

      But a stillbirth can involve some pretty horrific deformities, even with no “dragon” DNA involved: fused twins, extra limbs, anencephaly; in some extreme cases of spina bifida, the spinal column actually protrudes from the body. And royal families with a lot of inbreeding are notoriously prone to serious birth defects, though not usually quite so visually disturbing as what might have freaked out Dany’s attendants.

      One thing that just occurred to me for the first time: If Dany is carrying a “monster” fetus, wouldn’t Bran be likely to be able to tell her? Such foreknowledge might be enough to push her over the edge into some desperately bad decisions.

        Quote  Reply

    278. Ten Bears:
      Firannion,

      Yeah, but what was that weenie LF doing in the crypts? Even Jon said “You don’t belong here.”

      Either it was wasted time…or there was some (future) purpose for it.

      That is a very good question. Baelish may just have been snooping around, looking for something that he suspected might be down there. This was a guy with an elaborate intelligence-gathering network, after all, who heard a lot of rumors that few other people in Westeros were privy to. It was already implied that he knew more of the truth about the Lyanna “abduction” story than most of the Starks.

      I’d think that as soon as he arrived at Winterfell, for the first time in decades, he’d immediately have started questioning the older servants and retainers (those few who survived the Ironborn and Bolton occupations, at any rate) about any unusual memories they might have of Ned’s return with a “bastard” in tow following the end of Robert’s Rebellion, for example. Maybe he’s looking for a marriage certificate, or something that belonged to Rhaegar, or Robb’s will legitimizing Jon and designating him his heir…who knows? “Knowledge is power” is LF’s mantra, even if Cersei momentarily disabused him of it.

      In any case, it will be interesting to find out. I will feel more than a bit cheated if there’s no S8 reveal of the crypts hiding something significant.

        Quote  Reply

    279. I watch a little bit of the Superbowl, mainly for the humorous ads, but for me that day is mostly about the Puppy/Kitty/Fish Bowls. Howeverrrr, if there’s a chance of a GoT teaser during the football, I might for once just have to be glued to that for its duration…!

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