George R. R. Martin Answers House of the Dragon Questions & Raises a Few More

Mandatory Credit: Photo by Jose Mendez/Epa/REX/Shutterstock (8462326b) Us Writer George R R Martin Attends a Press Conference During the 30th Edition of the Guadalajara International Book Fair (fil) in Guadalajara Mexico 02 December 2016 Mexico Guadalajara Mexico Literature - Dec 2016 US writer George R.R. Martin attends a press conference during the 30th edition of the Guadalajara International Book Fair (FIL), in Guadalajara, Mexico, 02 December 2016.

Photo by Jose Mendez/Epa/REX/Shutterstock

It’s been a roller coaster few days for Game of Thrones fans, that’s for damn sure. First, it was announced that series creators David Benioff and Dan Weiss were departing their upcoming Star Wars trilogy to devote their attention to their Netflix projects. Then, I broke down in sobs as I learned that Bloodmoon was not being ordered to series. Several hours later, it was announced that a brand new, unannounced show, House of the Dragon, was ordered to SERIES without a pilot. And all this was amidst the reports of an allegedly disastrous interview David and Dan gave at the Austin Film Festival (I want to stress that these were untrue, as Luka attested when dissecting the actual recording). Yes, it’s been a wild week, everyone, and it’s still only Wednesday. So what did the one true god of Westeros and Essos have to say? Join me, and let GRRM lead the way…

“[Miguel] Sapochnik will be directing the pilot… well, maybe it is more precise to call it ‘the first episode’… of HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, and doubtless a number of other episodes as well. There’s no one better.” I’m not sure how much “doubtless a number of other episodes” suggests, but I’m sure time will tell. There’s no way to predict that far in the future. What is interesting is that, while Miguel Sapochnik was unquestionably one of the strongest directors from the entire ranks of GOT, he was usually brought into handle episodes feature massive battle sequences. So, unless the pilot will start with a bang and a battle (unlikely, I’d venture), it will be nice to see how Miguel handles the smaller stuff. I’m sure I’m not the only one who’d argue that I hope this series focuses less on the fire and the blood and more on the talking and the political machinations. While I of course can’t wait to see the climactic heights of the Targaryen civil war, and the FX that will surely come with it, I long for the smaller, talkier scenes. I can’t wait to see what Miguel does with the lower key stuff now that he’ll (presumably) have the opportunity to do so.

“[Co-showrunner Ryan Condal] tells me that he discovered the series just after A STORM OF SWORDS was published, and ‘I’ve loved the books for 19 years.’ (He is also a huge fan of my Dunk & Egg stories. In fact, that was the show he wanted to do initially, but I’m not prepared to bring Dunk & Egg to television until I’ve written quite a few more stories).” Wow. So it looks like Ser Duncan and his loyal squire won’t be appearing on our TV screens anytime soon. George has often talked about how he has plans to write more about Dunk and Egg’s adventures, so I wonder if he’s now formulating them with a potential series in mind.

George goes on to mention that the writer’s room, budget, and locations are yet to be assembled, but he presumes production will revisit at least some of the many locations GOT frequented. He even suggests that he may get to write some episodes, but before you article in a fiery rage to go send him some hate mail, please read his cautionary reminder:

“…let me make this perfectly clear… I am not taking on any scripts until I have finished and delivered WINDS OF WINTER.  Winter is still coming, and WINDS remains my priority, as much as I’d love to write an episodes of HOUSE.”

Lastly, and most importantly, he weighs in on what happened with Bloodmoon, or as he (and much of the Internet) had been calling it, The Long Night:

It goes without saying that I was saddened to hear the show would not be going to series. Jane Goldman is a terrific screenwriter, and I enjoyed brainstorming with her. I do not know why HBO decided not to go to series on this one, but I do not think it had  to do with HOUSE OF THE DRAGON. This was never an either/or situation. If television has room enough for multiple CSIs and CHICAGO shows… well, Westeros and Essos are a lot bigger, with thousands of years of history and enough tales and legends and characters  for a dozen shows. Heartbreaking as it is to work for years on a pilot, to pour your blood and sweat and tears into it, and have it come to nought, it’s not at all uncommon. I’ve been there myself, more than once. I know Jane and her team are feeling the disappointment just now, and they have all my sympathy… with my thanks for all their hard work, and my good wishes for whatever they do next.

He does have a bit more to say about it, so I’d really recommend checking out his full post. I’m curious why he believes that it had nothing to do with HOTD, but I think he just feels as upset about it as we do, and his sorrow is palpable. And now, like you all, I very much hope the next writing of George’s that I read is not in blog post form…

405 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. I think it’s weird to say this but in terms of exciting House Targaryan is way more dramatic. I know there are loads of Stark fans who think their house is the best house, and they probably wanted to know more. I did too. I am a fan of stability and reliability and trust and honor which is what the Starks stood for by and large.

      But there’s more drama in a single year in the Targaryen house than a decade in Stark. And tragedy and drama make for good storytelling and good television. When they said Bran had the best story, I had to laugh. I simply had to.

      Anyway, while Martin is probably sad about Bloodmoon, he’s also probably over the moon about this new one, as his love for telling Targaryen stories comes out in every single one of his books, novels etc.

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    2. TormundsWoman,

      Totally agree, I’m House Stark all
      the way but the Targaryen show was ALWAYS the one I wanted them to make for all the reasons you said (plus Dragons!). I really wasn’t that excited about Blood Moon. Like the OP I’m emotionally spent and it’s only Wednesday!

        Quote  Reply

    3. TormundsWoman,

      It wasn’t that Bran had the “best story” . Blame that on crappy writing. It was that he was the keeper of EVERYONE’S stories, aka history. And I hate that they didn’t write that more succinctly, because it came across they way you and many others interpreted it.

      But I do agree that the Targ prequel is the more exciting story to tell. And I was always on #teamStark.

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    4. “I’m sure I’m not the only one who’d argue that I hope this series focuses less on the fire and the blood and more on the talking and the political machinations.”

      Hear hear!

        Quote  Reply

    5. 6thofhisname,

      Well, Bran’s story was ridiculous in the last two seasons, no doubt about it. They tried really hard to make it work – the mysterious narrative; a plot behind our backs leading up to a huge conclusion – him planning it all the way through and becoming a king thanks to democracy. I mean, this was the worst part of the last season.
      It even tops ‘Daenerys downfall’ and ‘no consequences for Jon realizing he’s a Targaryen and getting to know his parentage’ by a large.

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    6. 6thofhisname,

      Unfortunately, that’s what Tyrion said on the show, that’s what he said is the best story and he even started to enumerate Bran’s life events.

      The truth is that whatever you want the audience to see and understand, that’s what you should show and tell, preferably show in this medium. That’s your script as a writer, that’s the job as director and producer. And I can only go by what Benioff and Weiss had on the show, script and acting there at the end.

      For the record, Bran’s chapters are extremely well written and I enjoy reading them time and again. It’s still not the best story. There are others that make for better stories in my opinion, but writing wise, those are very well written considering Martin has such a hard time putting them on paper.

        Quote  Reply

    7. Cumsprite,

      Yes, it’s like hiring Dusty to get the Nats to WS and people bitching about him working Sherzer and Strasburg to death and killing their arms and thus not renewing his contract … and then lo and behold, Strasburg and Sherzer pull the most innings ever and there they are! In the WS.

      But no one bitches now about arm killing and shit, because it is not Dusty who’s doing it…

        Quote  Reply

    8. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Blood Moon” cancellation is somehow affected by Brexit. Northern Ireland is completely up in the air at the moment and that was where they would have been shooting almost entirely. Too much uncertainty around everything. The Targ series wouldn’t be set as much, if at all in The North I imagine? So it may be a safer bet.

      Hardly a coincidence that a Brexit delay and the series announcements happened within a few hours of each other. I’m not completely talking out of my arse here either, as I’m based in the Republic of Ireland and have a UK based company interested in my series. The decision on it going to slate keeps being delayed due to the uncertainty. The political situation in Northern Ireland doesn’t allow for the long term planning of shooting a series up there right now. I’m also pretty sure GOT received some funding from EU sources. Could be one of the spanners in the works. Depending on how everything pans out “Bloodmoon” could reemerge if the NI situation becomes more stable.

        Quote  Reply

    9. TormundsWoman,

      Dusty “Widowmaker” Baker would’ve ruined those two before the All-Star break and you know it, Boysenberry. The Astros can go suck it for jumping leagues and I hope the beisbol gods smite the fuck out of them tonight.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Adam,

      Don’t even get me started on the lack of substance surrounding Jon’s parentage reveal. I had expected him to process it somehow parallel to how Theon had issues being a Greyjoy while being raised Stark. And how Jon felt knowing that the woman he had fallen in love with was also his aunt. Jonery’s entire relationship was glossed over and we didn’t get to see their relationship grow and evolve for maximum effect. They took them from point A to point Z in less than 3 episodes.

        Quote  Reply

    11. 6thofhisname:
      Adam,

      Don’t even get me started on the lack of substance surrounding Jon’s parentage reveal. I had expected him to process it somehow parallel to how Theon had issues being a Greyjoy while being raised Stark. And how Jon felt knowing that the woman he had fallen in love with was also his aunt. Jonery’s entire relationship was glossed over and we didn’t get to see their relationship grow and evolve for maximum effect. They took them from point A to point Z in less than 3 episodes.

      His parentage didn’t matter to him in the end. He loved Dany and she was his Queen now and forever. He didn’t want to be King.

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    12. Jack Bauer 24,

      I got that, but once again he didn’t get to this revelation in a split second. It would have been nice to realistically see him deal with some internal conflict over it. And I say this as someone who was ok with S8’s overall plot points/wrap up and saw most of it coming. S8 was basically the bare minimum cliff notes of what should have been a more comprehensive finale.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Good luck and Godspeed Miguel and Ryan. You are adapting and creating for the ugliest, most venomous, worst fanbase I’ve ever seen.

        Quote  Reply

    14. 6thofhisname,

      S7 & S8 together = Dream of Spring, divided into 4 distinct mini-arcs (2 per season).

      Likely the only version of that story you’ll ever get, unless GRRM decides to let someone else finish it after he’s gone, which is extremely unlikely.

        Quote  Reply

    15. Jack Bauer 24,

      “You’ve never met my brother. He once killed a man for snoring.”

      Oh wait sorry wrong quote. Clearly you’ve never seen the SW fandom. Sure the GoT fandom can get pretty rough and tough at times, especially since S8 aired, but SW… phew they are something else. GoT is Weenie Hut Juniors to their Salty Spitoon. They’re a much older fandom, more well-known, more culturally widespread, and people across many age demographics have grown up with it.

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    16. Farimer123:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      “You’ve never met my brother. He once killed a man for snoring.”

      Oh wait sorry wrong quote. Clearly you’ve never seen the SW fandom. Sure the GoT fandom can get pretty rough and tough at times, especially since S8 aired, but SW… phew they are something else. GoT is Weenie Hut Juniors to their Salty Spitoon. They’re a much older fandom, more well-known, more culturally widespread, and people across many age demographics have grown up with it.

      I watch the movies, but that’s the extent of it. I don’t follow any SW pages on social media or read any forums.

      The Walking Dead fandom is abysmal now and they’ve pretty much turned on AMC and Gimple (showrunner Season 4-8) long ago. Angela Kang (showrunner for Season 9 and 10) hasn’t seen better days either.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Cumsprite,

      lol. Old timer still stuck on teams switching leagues! And I see you also haven’t lost your love for Dusty!

      #GoNats 😀

      mau,

      you may be right. I always thought it was their temper, daring and incredibly weird family dynamics. Also having dragons. :p

        Quote  Reply

    18. Luke M,

      Oh I had no idea Brexit mess would be part of this, but now not surprised.

      And I thought this site was going to be slow once GOT was over…..silly me (thanks for keeping us informed!)

        Quote  Reply

    19. We know way more about the Targs post-Doom than we do about the Starks whole history. A two-tome history versus a chapter. So, of course Targ history seems more exciting. And, yes, dragons are a perennial lure. The Starks were conquerors and kings before they were lords. I’d love to learn more about their dark story, facts instead of lore.

      I’m still praying for a woman in the writers’ room.

        Quote  Reply

    20. Wow, you guys at the other side of the planet need to relax a bit! I can’t catch up with you! Lol.

      Good to hear from Martin though. Might I say, phew!
      For a moment there (half a day, actually!) you got me worried.
      (and please, go on with ADoS too? Please?)

        Quote  Reply

    21. Jack Bauer 24,

      Jack… You’ve made a picture of B&W your avatar?

      Well, I sure hope they lurk on watchersonthewall so they know how much you appreciate them.

      Admit it: You’re angling to score some free GoT merch or props from them. Maybe a genuine Jaime Lannister gold prosthetic, an engraved Cersei wine glass, scripts autographed by B & W, or a bottle of prescription Xanax with a King Bran Rx label.
      Oh wait: Didn’t someone here report that Funko Pop came out with Benioff and Weiss dolls?

        Quote  Reply

    22. …let me make this perfectly clear… I am not taking on any scripts until I have finished and delivered WINDS OF WINTER. Winter is still coming, and WINDS remains my priority, as much as I’d love to write an episodes of HOUSE.”

      “And I want to f*ck Angie Dickenson. Let’s see who gets lucky first.”

      – Uncle Junior
      (retort to U.S. Attorney who tells Uncle Junior he wants to take down all of the NY-NJ mob bosses, on “The Sopranos.”)

        Quote  Reply

    23. I actually thought of a fitting comparison between GoT and The Dark Knight.
      I have seen so many comments about how sudden Dany’s change was, that a person doesn’t just snap like that when she first was someone who protected the innocent.
      The same could be said for Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight. He goes from Gotham’s ”White Knight” to a twisted man who ends up almost killing Jim Gordon’s young son. I haven’t heard a single complaint that Harvey Dent’s story arc from hero to villain was too fast or impossible even though his change into a villain was way more sudden and with less buildup that Dany’s. How come no one complained about Harvey Dent’s change? Because everybody knows that Harvey Dent ends up as Two-Face, who is known to be a villain. If the books would have come out before season 8, there would be way less talk about ruining Dany’s arc and instead there would be praise to have her arc end tragic instead of her having the hero’s arc

        Quote  Reply

    24. SerKnight,

      If the books would have come out before season 8, there would be way less talk about ruining Dany’s arc and instead there would be praise to have her arc end tragic instead of her having the hero’s arc..”

      This!

      Just like Anakin/Vader. He was the chosen one who gave in to the Dark Side after a traumatic experience. Dany, after several back to back traumas.. That’s how I came to see Dany, tbh. And I was left there like Padme with a broken heart.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Ten Bears,

      Benioff and Weiss Funko Pop dolls? Oh God.

      I can perfectly imagine some adolescent brat buying them just to brutally destroy them, like Sid in Toy Story. In fact, they’d probably look just like him.

        Quote  Reply

    26. “I’m curious why he believes that it had nothing to do with HOTD, but I think he just feels as upset about it as we do, and his sorrow is palpable”

      I mean, he literally said why in his post.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Jack Bauer 24:
      Hope it premieres by Fall/Winter of next year.

      Highly, highly unlikely. They’re still in development. No writers’ room yet, no cast, no nothing.

      There will be months of casting, location scouting, production designing, costuming, and other pre-production stuff before any filming even begins. I’d say Spring 2021 is the absolute earliest we’re getting this, but even then, that would be pretty speedy.

        Quote  Reply

    28. 6thofhisname:
      Adam,

      Don’t even get me started on the lack of substance surrounding Jon’s parentage reveal. I had expected him to process it somehow parallel to how Theon had issues being a Greyjoy while being raised Stark. And how Jon felt knowing that the woman he had fallen in love with was also his aunt. Jonery’s entire relationship was glossed over and we didn’t get to see their relationship grow and evolve for maximum effect. They took them from point A to point Z in less than 3 episodes.

      They dropped the ball massively on the parentage thing. We should have seen much more character development for Jon as a result of it. I guess there wasn’t enough time in 5 episodes, but at the same time, maybe they shouldn’t have wasted so many precious minutes of screen time on characters engaging in long staring contests, silly drinking games, and other frivolous interactions. And also Tyrion walking for 15 minutes in the last episode.

      Someone made a chart of the number of words per episode across the entire show. Unsurprisingly, the amount of dialogue decreased every season. It plummeted by Season 8.

      To an extent, this makes sense. More battles, more spectacle, “show don’t tell”, etc…
      But the extent to which the quantity (and quality) of the dialogue dropped is still shocking. At the end of the day, story is told through characters.

      Rich character interactions were the lifeblood of the show, more than anything else. Losing that hurt every aspect of the story.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Farimer123:
      Ten Bears,

      Benioff and Weiss Funko Pop dolls? Oh God.

      I can perfectly imagine some adolescent brat buying them just to brutally destroy them, like Sid in Toy Story. In fact, they’d probably look just like him.

      I really thought I read somewhere recently that yes, they’re coming out with or have come out with B & W dolls, and instead of little plastic swords as accessories they come with tiny “scripts.” Voodoo pins sold separately.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Nick20,

      It’s not a competition. It doesn’t matter that season 8 had less dialogue than the previous seasons, so long as it’s top notch. And it’s only natural that season 8 had less, as it had the least amount of episodes. I disagree completely and didn’t think the dialogue quality declined at all. GOT season 8 balanced spectacle with dialogue/character moments very well.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Jack Bauer 24,

      Excuse me? :O

      Man, that was the most important part of his journey. He lived his entire life without the knowledge about his mother. He was convinced that he was a bastard son of a noble Ned Stark. He struggled with being a bastard until he started to be meaningful as a Night’s Watch lord commander. He lived “his father” way as an honorable man – at least that’s what Ned taught him – and he died for it. His entire arc has been built upon that secret.

      Are you trying to tell me that for the sake of defending that shitty writing at any price, you’re about to ignore the most defining aspect of this character’s story? Did you really put yourself in such deep confirmation bias that you are unwilling to take a more ‘critical approach’ to that stuff. Nothing against you bro, but it really pains me deeply when I see people in such an ‘artistic echo chambers’…

      Nope, you can’t just forsake THE MOST IMPORTANT PART probably of the ENTIRE SERIES – the true legacy, heritage, king’s blood of JON – simply to say: “well, you know, at the time he has fallen in love with some crazy blonde girl that’s about to burn the entire world, cause, you know… that’s in her blood and it had already been hinted thoughout the series that she’s about to fall mad”… like really: his dad was Aegon freaking Targaryen, and his mother was Lyanna Stark! We started the series with the promise of Ned to tell Jon about his mother’s identity. And we finished with an absolute dodge and fans trying to prove it has sense and it’s totally natural. What I can bet though, if there was such a structure in which Jon really had a rought time with that information, you’d be the first to say it was glorious 🙂

      Of course he didn’t want to be a king – that’s the good thing about his story arc. That after all, he returns to where he started – as no one. And yet, you can just put aside the whole character development. Just because he didn’t want to stay as a leader, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t show how IMPACTFUL it had to be for him… come on man.

      He gets to know the truth at the end of episode 8×01. Then we have another episode, in which up until the last seconds, the topic is being risen up when he talks to Dany – yet, he seems unmoved. Then, there’s battle. And then we jump into the feast where he laughs and gets drunk. I mean, something is missing right? Some dialogs, some emotions, some actions? What about some kind of visions as a plot device to push it further? Do you think that DRAGONRIDE is enough for him to ‘realize’ there’s something about it?

      And if that’s the case. If it truly was meant the way you present it, it only proves how bad D&D were at capturing the most defining moment in their show. WE EVEN GOT THE SCENE OF BRAN TELLING SANSA AND ARYA THE TRUTH DELETED!!! Like, what the hell is that? Where is the build-up? Where is the psychology of human nature? Where are the emotions, the struggle?

      Storytelling-wise, that season was nothing but a failure. You call the fanbase immature and toxic – I find them offensive, yeah, but at the same time having a good reason for being so. You can’t please anyone, but at least you can provide a finale which is consistent and beautiful in some sort of way. With what we got, we were far away from that. Actions had no consequences, fan service was omnipresent, plot armor was thicker than King’s Landing walls, terrible character building was there – a quick recipe for a disaster.

      By the way, if season 1 was constructed the same way as the last one, with the same structure of storytelling, character and world building, it would never got a green light for season 2 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    32. SerKnight,

      I read this between game innings and I would have to see the movie again but isn’t Harvey Dent completely aware that he becomes bad at some point saying to Batman and Gordon that they thought they can be decent dudes in an indecent time? That means he KNOWS he’s crossed a like and he chose to, being fully aware of it. And he’s not ranting on about him being the only one who knows what’s good. That is not Dany..

      Plus he was in hospital for a while, a huge trauma, physical disfigurement aside, Rachel died so he has a personal vendetta where he literally flips a coin because there was a nice build up to that. Chaos is fair, said the Joker when he visited Dent in hospital. No one said chaos is decent or good, not even Dent.

      It’s just that I remember Dent differently than how you portray the “switch” in your comment.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Ten Bears,

      Holy shit! Who’s gonna be the MVP?! They have like 25 players that played good and about 5 who were on fire this WS. I mean who? They all played their asses off when it was time to come through in pressure situations: Soto, Eaton, Rendon, Strasburg, Kendrick? WHO????

        Quote  Reply

    34. Am I the only one who feels a jolt of sadness every single time I read about these GOT spin offs… Because it really just reminds me of how the original series didn’t get to go out the way it deserved.

      Game of Thrones is now and will always be my favorite TV show ever made. But I can’t get excited for any spin offs since the original show remains somewhat ruined.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Adam,

      ”His [Jon’s] entire arc has been built upon that secret.”
      ______
      And in the end that presumably momentous secret and its reveal turned out to be… insignificant.

      Poll
      Which secret had the most impact?

      🔘 R + L = J = Secret Targaryean
      🔘 The secret is browning the butter before making the dough. -HP

        Quote  Reply

    36. HelloThere,

      Patience. Patience. The time to get excited about spinoffs will be in two or three years when certain member(s) of the original cast have had an opportunity to unwind and recharge.

      HBO pitch: “Here’s a $7 million check for Dolphin Rescue along with a cool $15 million cash up front for you. Just sign on the dotted line.”

        Quote  Reply

    37. Adam,

      Ah yes, the “hidden lineage reveals the true king” fantasy trope. You’re just salty that Jon wasn’t crowned King of Westeros in the end like Aragorn in LotR.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Ten Bears,

      Oh yeah. Jon’s true lineage had absolutely NO impact on the story at all. None. Not even a teensy tiny bit. Literally no one gave a shit at all the entire season.

      /s

        Quote  Reply

    39. Adam,

      Jon Snow’s parentage reveal is not the biggest part of the story. Not even close. It’s clear you have Jon Snow bias if you truly believe that. His bastard status wasn’t even the most important part of his character. It was his unyielding morality and integrity that resulted in him leading the charge against the White Walkers and that led him into killing Danerys, the woman he loved, in order to save countless lives. Jon Snow was much, much more than a parentage reveal.

      Jon’s parents played a more important role in the story than I ever thought it would. It turned Danerys against her advisers, the same advisers who would have been able to temper her worst impulses and stop her from burning down a city. That is no small thing. The only way his parentage would have been more important was if he was named king, which was never going to happen.

      The only people whose reaction we needed was Jon’s and Dany’s. We didn’t need Arya’s or Sansa’s because we knew they wouldn’t look at him any differently. As Arya said, she would always think of him as her brother.

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    40. HelloThere,

      I do feel sadness, but only because it means GOT is truly over. GOT is my favorite show as well, with my second favorite finale. The ending remained true to the story and the characters, so GOT did get the ending it deserved.

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    41. SerKnight,

      Didn’t Harvey Dent wind up with a catastrophic brain injury, the sort that results in people losing millions of brain cells and doing crazy shit like going on three-state killing sprees or voting for Trump?

      That’s a little different from having a series of unfortunate events send you completely over the edge. And just to be crystal-clear… yes, those tendencies were always there. But to write that the proverbial straws that broke the camel’s back were feeling unloved, losing her bff, and being betrayed simply—and unjustifiably, imho—put Daenerys straight into Hysterical Victorian Female territory. It was a profound disservice to the character.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Wolfish:
      SerKnight,

      Didn’t Harvey Dent wind up with a catastrophic brain injury, the sort that results in people losing millions of brain cells and doing crazy shit like going on three-state killing sprees or voting for Trump?

      That’s a little different from having a series of unfortunate events send you completely over the edge. And just to be crystal-clear… yes, those tendencies were always there. But to write that the proverbial straws that broke the camel’s back were feeling unloved, losing her bff, and being betrayed simply—and unjustifiably, imho—put Daenerys straight into Hysterical Victorian Female territory. It was a profound disservice to the character.

      She also lost TWO children. That played a huge part in her unraveling.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Farimer123,

      I can’t speak for Adam’s wishes, but I agree with every word of his post and I had absolutely NO desire to see Jon crowned king. I did want to see him coming to terms with the lie that had defined his life. And I wanted to see Sansa and Arya coming to terms with that. Jon’s status as Ned Stark’s bastard absolutely defined his character and all of his family members’ relationships to him, and in the end the revelation of his true parentage was brushed off as utterly inconsequential to everything and everyone.

      Fuck yeah, we feel cheated.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Wolfish,

      Harvey Dent lost his girlfriend… and… yeah.

      Jon rejecting Dany’s romantic advances meant that they couldn’t rule together. If Jon had agreed, at least people could get behind him even if they weren’t fond of Dany. In the absense of any form of love, even second-hand, Dany had no choice but to rule with fear. After all, fear had worked quite well in getting people to kneel before, and love only got her so far in Slaver’s Bay. Hence, her “logical” reason for killing an estimated 100K people (including those killed by Dothraki, Northmen, wildfire, and indirect fire spreading. “oH bUt ThE cItY hAd SuRrEnDeReD!” Yeah they had – so had the Reynes. They had surrendered to Tywin before the end. Did that stop him from slaughtering every man woman and child of that house in an awful way just to make an example of them?

      Of course, the emotional reason was that she saw her best friend beheaded and her dragon shot out of the sky. Entire armies in war have committed atrocities of a similar scale for less. It’s the kind of thing the Dothraki would have done just for the pleasure, surrender or no surrender.

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    45. Jack Bauer 24,

      Oh, shit. Thank you for the reminder. There was Jorah, too.

      My unforgivable omissions aside…

      The world is full of people who have suffered terrible personal losses and betrayals. Historically, I don’t think that’s been a common reason for burning down cities, access to WMD or no.

      As I wrote before, Daenerys’s tendencies were always evident. I simply don’t think grief over individual losses would have driven her over the edge into mass-murdering tyranny. In a truly power-hungry person, it just isn’t that… personal.

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    46. Farimer123,

      I don’t know… Dany already had the fear of the people, that’s why they surrendered to her after her show of intimidation and force. By burning a surrendered city, Dany reinforced the stigmas people believed of her, giving them even more reason to not want her. She didn’t even target the Red Keep or Cersei, the person responsible for Missandei’s death and (indirectly) Rheagal’s. Instead, Dany just started demolishing the city, killing the very people she came to save from a tyrant. And then declared she liberated them from said tyrant.

      According to D&D, even Dany didn’t know she’d do what she did until that very moment and it didn’t seem to be because she had resolved to rule by fear. Dany already had the fear of the people without demolishing an entire city:

      Benioff: If circumstances had been different, I don’t think this side of Dany ever would’ve come out. If Varys hadn’t betrayed her, if Cersei hadn’t executed Missandei, if Jon hadn’t told her the truth. Like, if all of these things had happened in any different way, then I don’t think we’d be seeing this side of Daenerys Targaryen.

      Weiss: I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was… going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, where she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to– to make this personal.

      The thing is, Dany’s been through some sh!t (including the death of her husband and unborn child in one fell swoop) and hasn’t ever gone after an entire people (including those she wanted to save) because of it.

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    47. Wolfish,

      Yes, Dany’s dark impulses were always there, and everything she suffered was more than enough to set her off. I mean, she required much less provocation when she wanted to torch Astapor and Yunkai.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Farimer123,

      I saw this after I responded to Jack. The best response my whiskey-soaked brain can come up with is this: As much as I can try to understand the profound grief and rage Daenerys felt at the time she burned down KL, I don’t understand what one set of circumstances had to do with the other. People are superb at compartmentalizing, and we have absolutely no reason to believe Daenerys was an exception to the rule. The conflation of the deeply personal with the hunger for the throne has never added up in my mind. Simply put, to me her final actions would have been far more believable had they not been attributed to personal losses, numerous and quickly (successive?) as they were.

      This is a great discussion on this thread, but needs I finish my whiskey and go to bed so I can get up early enough to apply Halloween makeup. A good evening to you.

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    49. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      Jon’s parentage led to King’s Landing’s destruction. That is not insignificant.

      How so?
      Isn’t that a tenuous cause and effect?

      One could make the argument that Sansa deliberately stirring up the pot by breaking her promise to Jon and divulging his secret to Tyrion sent Dany over the edge, and that is what led directly to the destruction of KL.
      Or, Tyrion’s string of failed “clever” plans led to the nuking of KL after the decimation. of her allies and navy. If Dany had just torched the Red Keep right after she reached Dragonstone in S7e1, instead of listening to Tyrion’s silly “siege and starve ‘em out” schemes, the conquest would’ve been over in an hour. So Tyrion underestimating their enemies caused the destruction of KL.

      Why not blame Hot Pie for the destruction of KL? But for his interference Dany would not have even had to attack the city:
      (a) In S7e1, Arya was on her way to KL. “I’m going to kill the Queen.”
      (b) In S7e2 Arya was heading south for KL when
      she stopped for lunch at the Crossroads Inn.
      (c) Had Hot Pie not been there or had Hot Pie not provided her with a detailed briefing of current political events, Arya would’ve crossed the brotherf*cker off her List by mid-S7.
      (d) Instead, Arya turned north to WF, Cersei stayed very much alive, and triggered Dany’s rage.

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    50. Wolfish,

      To expand on my previous post to you, while the tendencies weren’t always so clear to me (I did have some problems the mass executions just because she didn’t know who did what beforehand), I agree with your statement I don’t think a series of individual losses to send her that far over the edge, where she was burning anybody and everybody, regardless of who they were (poor or rich, oppressed or oppressor), followed by her claim that she “liberated” them (ie. in which she’s denying reality altogether).

      I could see Dany cutting her way through Cersei’s people-shield to get to her but not burning an entire city full of people without even targeting Cersei.

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    51. Adrianacandle:
      Wolfish,
      I could see Dany cutting her way through Cersei’s people-shield to get to her but not burning an entire city full of people without even targeting Cersei.

      Except she threatened to do it before. Why do so many people keep forgetting about that?

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    52. Young Dragon: Except she threatened to do it before. Why do so many people keep forgetting about that?

      People say all sorts of things they don’t do, especially in anger. But her actions don’t exactly jive with somebody who’d burn the smallfolk, the people she’s trying to save, after she won the city. And what’s more, not go after Cersei — the one responsible for her pain — or the Red Keep, which apparently triggers her.

      And Dany has made choices to avoid civilian loss of life, opting not to attack the Red Keep itself for this purpose after her advisors remind her of this. She goes from defending the realm in 803 to destroying an entire city in 805.

      I’m not saying this transition can’t be done, it can. But I think it needed far more build-up.

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    53. Adrianacandle,

      D&D also said that when she said “Let it be fear,” that she had resigned herself to the fact that she would have to get this done (establish secure rule over the people of Westeros) in a way that was horrible to a lot of people. So she’d already decided ahead of time to do something incredibly cruel as a show of resolve – hell shes discussing it in the very next scene with Tyrion – but she hadn’t decided just what that thing would be yet.

      Who killed Dany’s husband and unborn child? Mirriz Maz Duur. What did Dany do to her again? Did she let her off the hook? Oh yeah – she burned her alive and listened to her screams.

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    54. Adrianacandle,

      No, Danerys has only ever made one hollow threat, and that was about ability, not desire. I suggest you rewatch the scene again. When she threatened to torch Astapor and Yunkai, she didn’t even sound angry or desperate. She was cold, speaking matter-of-factly, like that was exactly what was going to happen.

      The people of King’s Landing didn’t need saving. They chose Cersei over her, and Danerys saw that as a betrayal. And Danerys did hit the Red Keep, and she hit it hard. How else do you think the ceiling collapsed on top of Jaime and Cersei?

      Yes, she chose to save civilians whenever it suited her. When it did not, she did not care.

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    55. Farimer123,

      D&D also said that when she said “Let it be fear,” that she had resigned herself to the fact that she would have to get this done (establish secure rule over the people of Westeros) in a way that was horrible to a lot of people. So she’d already decided ahead of time to do something incredibly cruel as a show of resolve – hell shes discussing it in the very next scene with Tyrion – but she hadn’t decided just what that thing would be yet.

      Sure, but that doesn’t mean needlessly demolishing an entire city. It could mean attacking a people-stuffed Red Keep (Cersei stuffed the Red Keep full of people, depending on Dany’s mercy so Dany wouldn’t attack the Red Keep itself, which is referenced in the 804 and 805 scenes talking about KL), it could mean opting not to go the “bloodless” way (although a siege is pretty brutal in and of itself), but committing democide after she’s already won?

      And Dany did win — through fear without leveling an entire city, going after the civilian populace.

      Who killed Dany’s husband and unborn child? Mirriz Maz Duur. What did Dany do to her again? Did she let her off the hook? Oh yeah – she burned her alive and listened to her screams.

      Yeah. Dany went after the one person responsible, not an entire populace who had done nothing to her. When Dany was burning KL, she didn’t even target the Red Keep or confirm whether or not Cersei was alive or dead.

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    56. Adrianacandle,

      “Too easily words of war become acts of war.”

      Dany was going to destroy Astapor and Yunkai in 6×9 until Tyrion narrowly managed to talk her out of it.
      “I will crucify the masters, set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Does that sound like she was going to spare the innocent women and children?

      “There’s a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand.”

      Just change “man” to “woman” and “sword in his hand” to “giant fire-breathing dragon beneath her” and you’re good to go =)

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    57. Wolfish,

      Some people are good at compartmentalizing their emotions, and Danerys is most certainly not one of them. Her emotions fuel her decisions all the time, like when she burned Miri Maz Dur, threatened to burn down Quarth, crucified 163 slavers, some of whom were innocent, fed an innocent man to her dragons, etc.

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    58. Farimer123,

      The thing is, Dany listened to Tyrion because she wasn’t keen on killing innocents.

      “I will crucify the masters, set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Does that sound like she was going to spare the innocent women and children?

      Well, it doesn’t sound like deliberately going after innocents while ignoring the tyrants and oppressors she wants to destroy — and after she won the city.

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    59. Adrianacandle,

      “Lay their cities to the dirt.” Last time I checked, there were innocent people living in those cities. And that came after the masters and soldiers were all killed.

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    60. Adrianacandle,

      What people was Dany going to go after in MMD’s case? Her tribe had been slaughtered or scattered to the winds. And how? She didn’t exactly have a dragon back during that whole fiasco.

      Oh, and she did promise the Qartheen that when her dragons were fully grown, she would burn cities to the ground… and if the Qartheen turned her away (which would be the decision of only a handful of people), she would burn them first. As in the entire city of Qarth. Not just the Qartheen, but the entire city. Burned to the ground.

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    61. Young Dragon,

      I addressed this in a reply to Farimer123: that’s not deliberately going after innocents first while ignoring the tyrants and oppressors she wants to destroy, which is what happened with KL. And when Tyrion reminds Dany of the innocents who’d be killed, she changes her mind.

      Several times, Dany put off a direct attack on the Red Keep and taking the Iron Throne via a much quicker route because of civilian loss of life.

      Again, I’m not saying this transition can’t happen but I don’t think the build-up was sufficient.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Farimer123,

      What people was Dany going to go after in MMD’s case? Her tribe had been slaughtered or scattered to the winds. And how? She didn’t exactly have a dragon back during that whole fiasco.

      You brought up the example and I said what I thought was the difference between the two. She did not go after a populace as a result of this or make an effort to do so. She didn’t go after those who abandoned the khalasar when Drogo got ill. She went after the person responsible, unlike with KL.

      Oh, and she did promise the Qartheen that when her dragons were fully grown, she would burn cities to the ground… and if the Qartheen turned her away (which would be the decision of only a handful of people), she would burn them first. As in the entire city of Qarth. Not just the Qartheen, but the entire city. Burned to the ground.

      Yet Dany had still opted not to do so. She didn’t turn back and burn them when her dragons were full grown. She put off a quick conquest of the Iron Throne because of civilian life being lost.

      This is why it’s hard for me to find any sense in what she did to KL. I’m not saying it couldn’t eventually happen but I think it would have needed a far better build up between 803 (defending the realm) and 805 (needlessly destroying an entire city after surrender). Words and threats aren’t enough for me :/

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    63. Adrianacandle,

      Because at that point she didn’t consider them to be innocent anymore. I’ve addressed this too. And she did hit the Red Keep hard. That’s why the ceiling collapsed on Jaime and Cersei.

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    64. Adrianacandle,

      That’s your problem, though. I’m not denying she’s done great things, but you are ignoring the fact she’s done terrible things. She’s had dark impulses, but she also had advisers who would occasionally reign her in. By the time she burned down King’s Landing, she had no more advisers that she trusted. It was set up perfectly.

      As for Quarth, the fact that your brushing away her threat to mass murder innocent people is quite troubling. Is it great she decided not to burn Quarth to the ground? Of course. But weren’t you the tiniest bit bothered that burning down cities is frequently her first impulse? I mean, this all points to a pattern of behavior that makes what happened to King’s Landing almost inevitable. Besides, she said, “Turn us away, and we will burn you first.” They didn’t turn her away, so she didn’t burn them first.

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    65. Young Dragon,

      The attack on the Red Keep wasn’t targeted, it was like… just in her way while she went for the streets. She first went for the people and didn’t even confirm whether or not Cersei was killed.

      Dany may have been upset that the people didn’t rise up against Cersei but when they did, she killed them all anyway… which seems odd. Was Dany killing them all as punishment? But those weren’t in the reasons D&D cited for her democide. And then Dany declares she “liberated” them from a tyrant.

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    66. Dany in 6×9 wasn’t a moron. She knew exactly what returning Astapor and Yunkai to the dirt would entail: slaughtering vast numbers of innocent civilians. And she wasn’t going to do it for any military reasons either, like once she “won back the city” she’d stop. No, this was to make an example of them.

      The only reason she held off was because she wasn’t enotionally unhinged enough by then that Tyrion’s direct comparison between her and the Mad King didn’t reach her. But by the end of S8, she had at least a week to stew and simmer and brood over the deaths of Rhaegal and Missandei, probably replaying their deaths repeatedly in her head the way Arya repeatedly replayed Ned’s death. Robert once said in a History & Lore that “the dragonspawn were famous for losing their minds.”

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    67. Young Dragon: That’s your problem, though. I’m not denying she’s done great things, but you are ignoring the fact she’s done terrible things. She’s had dark impulses, but she also had advisers who would occasionally reign her in. By the time she burned down King’s Landing, she had no more advisers that she trusted. It was set up perfectly.

      As for Quarth, the fact that your brushing away her threat to mass murder innocent people is quite troubling. Is it great she decided not to burn Quarth to the ground? Of course. But weren’t you the tiniest bit bothered that burning down cities is frequently her first impulse? I mean, this all points to a pattern of behavior that makes what happened to King’s Landing almost inevitable. Besides, she said, “Turn us away, and we will burn you first.” They didn’t turn her away, so she didn’t burn them first.

      My intention was to point out the differences between previous threats/actions and what she ended up doing in KL — an action Dany, herself, didn’t even plan per D&D.

      I haven’t said what she’s done before isn’t at all troubling (I cited my problem with the mass crucifixion) or that she never had dark impulses. I’m saying she didn’t follow through because of what it meant for civilian life.

      All I said re:Quarth was that she didn’t do it, not that the threat itself wasn’t troubling. Words and threats aren’t enough for me as a build-up to needlessly demolishing an entire city full of the very people she wanted to save, after she had already won that city, without even targeting the tyrant/oppressor. And after avoiding a direct attack on the Red Keep because of civilian lives.

      I just think what Dany ended up doing needed far more build up, especially so soon after 803. Not that the transition isn’t possible.

      Words/threats are a starting point but not enough of a build-up for me.

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    68. Adrianacandle,

      That was because the entire city became her target. And like I said, the Red Keep was hit like everywhere else.

      And by them rising up against her, do you mean ringing the bells? That’s surrendering to Danerys, not rising up against Cersei. Rising up would be what the slaves did in Mereen. They took the city for her. The people of King’s Landing did no such thing.

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    69. Young Dragon,

      That was because the entire city became her target. And like I said, the Red Keep was hit like everywhere else.

      I didn’t hear Dany say the entire city was a target, or D&D? They said her burning of KL was unplanned.

      While the Red Keep was hit, it wasn’t targeted. She didn’t even go for deliberately like she did the streets. She doesn’t confirm Cersei is dead. Instead, she declares the hundreds of thousands of people she killed are “liberated”.

      Dany’s Plan A was to attack the Red Keep. Near the end of 804, Varys tries to dissuade Dany from attacking the Red Keep because of all the people Cersei is stuffing in there. In 805, Tyrion is dissuading Dany from waging battle in the city because of the lives that would be lost. Dany is upset that the people haven’t risen up against Cersei but agrees that they’re being held hostage by a tyrant and that’s not her fault, saying Cersei is using her mercy against her (and, well, yeah, Cersei is — on the Red Keep). But I don’t remember Dany saying that the entire city is now her target? Waging battle in the city (or even going for the Red Keep) is very different from needlessly burning the whole population after surrender. The latter has no rhyme or reason. It gives people even more of a reason to want to take her out, fearing another mad monarch.

      And by them rising up against her, do you mean ringing the bells? That’s surrendering to Danerys, not rising up against Cersei. Rising up would be what the slaves did in Mereen. They took the city for her. The people of King’s Landing did no such thing.

      By surrendering to Dany, that is turning on Cersei because it’s accepting Dany as their new queen. It’s not a revolution, but they did submit to Dany (previously, Dany has always provided a choice to either submit or die. And the people submitted).

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    70. Young Dragon,

      I appreciate that you can find the connective threads, I do! For me, I needed more to build up to it. I’m not saying it’s impossible! 🙂 I completely accept something like this is very likely going to happen in the books. But personally, I need a more graduated shift from where she was in 803 to 805, when she made the decision to “burn them all” while atop the walls of King’s Landing.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Adrianacandle,

      But there is no shift. She just did what she promised to do in S2. Taking things with fire and blood was always an option for her. It’s not like Jon Snow burned KL so it really came out of nowhere.

      Once she couldn’t rule trough love she wanted to rule trough fear.

      And she either killed innocent people or considered killing them many times through the show.

        Quote  Reply

    72. mau,

      I can agree what we saw was a starting point but not a thorough transformation since Dany opted for the option of not taking things with fire and blood due to civilian lives, much less deliberately going after the people in a democide after she’s won the battle.

      But taking things through fire and blood doesn’t necessarily mean killing an entire population after surrender. That was going above and beyond.

      At the point Dany was in 805, I could see her now willing to wage war in the city, despite the civilian lives, and/or attacking the Red Keep — those actions would have a target, a purpose (going after Cersei and/or taking the throne). However, I don’t think there was enough development/transformation for Dany to deliberately demolish an entire population after she’s already won.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Adrianacandle,

      I mean in S7 she wanted to kill an entire already defeated army after she already won. The only reason why she haven’t is because they decided to kneel after she used dragon to scare them.

      Killing an aready defeated army is horrible war crime.

        Quote  Reply

    74. mau: I mean in S7 she wanted to kill an entire already defeated army after she already won. The only reason why she haven’t is because they decided to kneel after she used dragon to scare them.

      Killing an aready defeated army is horrible war crime.

      I don’t think that’s what happened, she is the one who gave them a choice to submit or die. This is the speech Dany made in 705 after defeating the Lannister army:

      I know what Cersei has told you. That I’ve come to destroy your cities, burn down your homes, murder you, and orphan your children. That’s Cersei Lannister, not me. I’m not here to murder, and all I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor to the benefit of no one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world. I offer you a choice — bend the knee and join me. Together, we will leave the world a better place than we found it. Or refuse and die.

      And still, it’s not deliberately going after the unarmed smallfolk in the streets who did submit.

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    75. Good. Because Winds of Winter is definitely finished and will be released in the first half of 2020, George will for sure script some episodes. Great news!

      How wonderful will it be when the first season will end with the forging of The Iron Throne by Balerion! 2021 hopefully… 10 Years after GoT start.

      P.S. 1 – History is subjective/inaccurate (Tyrion was not mentioned in A Song of Ice and Fire) so Fire and Blood may also be subjective/inaccurate.
      P.S. 2 – Please keep as much Westeros magic as possible !

        Quote  Reply

    76. mau,

      Upon reflection, I think I might have misunderstood your intent. Do you mean she would have killed anyone who didn’t submit?

      I actually don’t disagree with her here or find what she did wrong. They fought against Dany in combat, lost the battle, and as the victorious side, Dany gave them the choice. It doesn’t sound like she wanted to kill them, she was inviting them to join her. However, if they don’t want to join her and opt for death (like the Tarlys), then I think that’s fine. Dany is take-no-prisoners (no Wall option but she still is allowing the losing side to join her) and she’s not going to let soldiers return to the side she’s fighting against.

      But again, I feel this is very, very different to what she ended up doing in KL by going after civilians.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Adrianacandle,

      Killing an entire already defeated army is a horrible war crime. It always has been. There are no excuses for that. Robb Stark and Jon Snow didn’t do something like that.

      And this is type of excuses people were making for her brutality since S1. It’s not fine to kill defeated army, it’s not normal to have no prisoner policy.

      If you have that, you are a dangerous unhinged person that has to be stopped. If burning cities or castles exist like an option for you, you don’t deserve to rule.

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    78. Adrianacandle,

      And I feel you think there is some huge moral difference between burning Red Keep and burning the entire city. There is not. You know that famous Stalin’s quote about tragedy and statistics.

      A person who is capable to burn thousands of people is capable to burn a million. As Hillary said – what difference at this point does it make? You already crossed the line.

        Quote  Reply

    79. mau,

      But Dany didn’t kill an entire defeated army. She gave them a choice. And even so, there’s quite a difference between what happened in 705 and what she did in 805.

      But I don’t think Dany was unhinged in 705. She wasn’t going out of her way to kill in 705 and then declaring it “liberation”, she gave the defeated side a choice.

      For there to have been no shift, I think Dany would be need to be going after civilian populations from the first — as in no targeting the tyrants, no going after the throne, just deliberate killing of anything that moved, including the smallfolk — but this never happened at any point pre-805.

      She wanted to attack the Red Keep but opted not to when reminded of the civilian cost. There’s no nice way to take a city, a siege isn’t any more gentle. It’s quite brutal. Cities are taken through conquest and had Dany attacked the Red Keep, that’d be conquest.

      I just don’t think there was nearly enough build-up to what she ended up doing in 805 since it was very unlike anything she did before. It wasn’t just ruling through fear (she had fear the moment she took the Iron Fleet and Golden Company with ease, she would have continued to have fear if she barreled ahead to the Red Keep), it was excessive and needless mass killing.

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    80. mau: And I feel you think there is some huge moral difference between burning Red Keep and burning the entire city. There is not. You know that famous Stalin’s quote about tragedy and statistics.

      A person who is capable to burn thousands of people is capable to burn a million. As Hillary said – what difference at this point does it make? You already crossed the line.

      Except one is a needless democide of civilians and the other is a conquest to take the throne.

      I’m not debating morality here, I’m talking about the difference between the two and there is a difference. One is just mass killing without rhyme or reason, the other is to take the throne.

      Other conquerors — have they burned millions just because they could? Would Stannis keep killing if he successfully took King’s Landing?

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    81. When it’s questioned why Dany burnt KL even after the city surrendered, it reminds me of similar questions people ask in other circumstances. “Why did he kill himself when he had so many family and friends who cared about him?” “Why did that mother snap on her crying baby? She was always so happy around her!” etc…

      Sometimes regardless of everything in our power, people are capable of doing the unthinkable, even irrational, if pushed over the edge. She had an emotional toll that has been building up throughout all the seasons. I think the last few losses were the final straw for her. I don’t think it was premeditated. I think she literally made the choice in that very moment. I feel her “liberating” comment was her way of justifying what she did and was also a mixture of denial and loss of reality by then. I understand why others felt her transition was too quick for them, but for me I was able to accept it since the pacing has sped up since season 6 ended. It simply went with the rest of the flow of the show.

      I find it so fascinating how this had made me rethink about her in older episodes. Back when she threatened to burn Qarth to the ground I truly thought she’d let the innocent escape first or that it was all talk to intimidate them. But now hindsight has me realizing she likely had impulses even before coming to Westeros, when it was very clear in season 7 and I started to like her less by then. And this is coming from someone who spent a pretty penny on her wig a few years back for Halloween. Just my two cents. I love reading the discussions here. You guys are great at keeping things civil.

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    82. 6thofhisname,

      You probably know that majority of criticism was not about dany’s faith but how they executed that ending. If people(large part of them) don’t buy how dany changed to become a mass murderer, you sit and think maybe there was something wrong with story and scripts, bot people. Dany fans didnt buy it, anti-daenerys fans didnt buy it.

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    83. Gfx,

      Cesei would be a good example: in earlier season we saw her to use words to threaten that she would burn KL to the ground. In season 6, she had lost all her children, she had lost her power, she had experienced walk of shame, lost her father, tyrion had scaped, etc. So we knew that she was under pressure and she was capable of doing something terrible( even destroying KL with wildfire). Right? I remember even there were rumers and false spoilers about that at the time. Why fans belived that cersei had potential to commit such acts? My answer is becuase this is how writers developed here character( with dialoges, actions and even her facial experssion). At the end of season, she destroyed sept and killed hundreds of her enemies. There was nothig unrealistic about it. Fans embraced and even liked it. Because of cause and effect logic+character development. Same fans didn’t like what daenery did. Why didnt they believe that daenerys was capable of such act. You are giving examples of early seasons that foreshadowed this consequence but it seems that those attempts from writers werent enough to make it believable for fans.
      So, if fans dont find a story and character developementbelivable, sgould we believe them or writers?

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    84. Adrianacandle:
      mau,

      But Dany didn’t kill an entire defeated army. She gave them a choice.

      Kneel or die. Really non-tyrannical proposal. And yes, she didn’t, but she was capable to, even after she won the battle. But her emotional state was different than it was in the Bells.

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    85. Adrianacandle: Except one is a needless democide of civilians and the other is a conquest to take the throne.

      There were thousands of civilians in Red Keep. So as I said, what difference at this point does it make?

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    86. mau,

      I’m not saying Dany’s never showed autocratic traits or that she’s a paragon of virtue. I’m more commenting on the choices she made here. She gave the defeated army an option and accepted the choice of those who submitted to her. Dany didn’t opt for killing from the first and she didn’t go out of her way to kill as she did in 805.

      I feel that, in saying I don’t buy the leap to Dany becoming a mass murderer who went out of her way to slaughter civilians in 805, some feel my words are saying that Dany is a character who’s never done anything wrong or never done things I disagree with? (Correct me if I’m wrong!) I’m not saying this. She has done things that have troubled me. I fell off her for a bit in season 4.

      But I don’t see this into a lead-in for mass murdering an entire city of smallfolk. I could probably see Dany attacking a people-stuffed Red Keep, steamrolling over anyone who got in her way, but not going out of her way to kill everybody, including smallfolk fleeing from her in streets nowhere near the Red Keep. I think more needed to be done to get her to the point of total democide, which she justified as right. It felt like steps in between were missing.

      And I think this whole storyline was rushed.

      There were thousands of civilians in Red Keep. So as I said, what difference at this point does it make?

      There’d be a reason behind it — to get at Cersei, the person she wants to destroy above all, and/or to take the Iron Throne, her lifelong goal.

      With every other conquerer, thousands die in their wars but it doesn’t mean they’ll keep killing needlessly, even those who aren’t in their way.

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    87. mau,

      I wonder if a better way to answer your question would be the difference between a car running over anybody in its way toward a goal and a car going after anyone and everyone it sees — after it’s already claimed its goal. In the first scenario, you die if you’re in the car’s way but you’re okay if you’re not there. In the second scenario, you die anyway. Nothing you can do, car’s coming for you.

      Both involve death and that’s not good — but one is without rhyme or reason, targeting everybody rather than a specific path/goal. It’s indiscriminate killing without purpose, which Dany’s never done before.

      (Not to say that the citizens are to blame in either case! Collateral damage or targets, whoever Dany would have hit, they’re still dead — it’s the difference between intention which makes killing everyone she sees far more scary and insane to me because it’s just mass killing without a decipherable target.)

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    88. Adrianacandle,

      It’s not a choice if you say you will kill them.

      That’s not a choice. If I told you – have sex with me or die, would you agree that that wasn’t rape because I didn’t physically force you to have sex?

      Where is difference between killing smallfolk and defeated army? Both are war crimes.

      A lot of conquerers do keep needlessly killing. There are many examples in history. As Sapochnik said, they came in KL for blood, for revenge, she will not accept surrender because it is too late. And I don’t see how is killing thousands of civilians in Red Keep any less “needless”. Every death is needless, because she really doesn’t need the Iron Throne. That whole war is pointless and needless.

      This idea that war crimes are not committed for revenge or to send message is not true. You don’t really want a reason, you want to make excuse for her, just like you are making excuse for the destruction of Red Keep and treat that as normal millitary target. And it is not.

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    89. Adrianacandle:
      mau,

      I wonder if a better way to answer your question would be the difference between a car running over anybody in its way toward a goal and a car going after anyone and everyone it sees — after it’s already claimed its goal.

      But what is real goal?

      Her goal is not only to take the throne, her goal is “let it be fear”, her goal is revange. Her goal is to send message to Sansa that Winterfell is next is he tries to push Jon on the Iron Throne. To send message to everyone else that she will rule the world and no one can stand in her way.

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    90. This was interesting discussions but I thinl I understand now where our disagreements are coming from.

      You think Daenerys’ goal is only to take the Iron Throne, and I think her goal is throne, but also (because of her emotional and mental state) revenge and “let it be fear”.

      So I feel we have fundamental disagreement about what her goal was so further discussion of this (enjoyable) topic is pointless.

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    91. “well, I can’t actually spill those beans, but you might want to pick up a copy of two anthologies I did with Gardner Dozois, DANGEROUS WOMEN and ROGUES”

      Are these books? Where can I find them?

        Quote  Reply

    92. mau,

      That’s not a choice. If I told you – have sex with me or die, would you agree that that wasn’t rape because I didn’t physically force you to have sex?

      The Lannister army fought against Dany. They lost. Dany decides their fate as the winning side. Had the Lannister army won and Dany was defeated, they’d decide her fate.

      In conquests, losing sides are given the option to surrender. It’s not a good choice but it’s not Dany killing them at first thought. For example, Stannis also gave Mance Rayder (and the wildlings) the option to kneel or die. Mance was the losing side. It is brutal.

      Where is difference between killing smallfolk and defeated army? Both are war crimes.

      As I understand it, not accepting surrender is a war crime (but for something to be war crime, I believe there’d have to be international war law?). She gave the Lannister army the option to surrender.

      A lot of conquerers do keep needlessly killing. There are many examples in history. As Sapochnik said, they came in KL for blood, for revenge, she will not accept surrender because it is too late. And I don’t see how is killing thousands of civilians in Red Keep any less “needless”. Every death is needless, because she really doesn’t need the Iron Throne. That whole war is pointless and needless.

      I agree Dany doesn’t need the throne. I wish she would have given it up. Nobody needs the throne. Nobody needs any seat of power, really. All we need is a house, a shower, some nice apple trees, a job, a good moisturizer, and we’re set. But as far as Westeros goes, people still conquer the throne and they don’t keep on needlessly killing.

      As for the rest, okay, you don’t see the difference. I’ve tried my best to explain it as I see it. I think it’s a whole lot scarier for somebody to democide an entire population, even after she’s already won the battle.

      I think Sapochnik said that about Dany’s decision to destroy King’s Landing, not when she marched to take it? And that this was to “personify” fan bloodthirstiness?

      “The destruction of King’s Landing, for me, has always been an audience participation event. You wanted this, you wanted this, you wanted this. Here. Is that really what you wanted?” asked Sapochnik. “I felt like there was this thing of this bloodthirstiness that exists in the fans, for revenge, for this payback that is personified by Dany. I just wanted to get to the core of what that actually means. Because even though the characters that don’t exist in the end, what you’re looking for, as an audience member, is death and destruction. I wanted people to know how bad death and destruction can be in the safe environment they’re living in.”

      This idea that war crimes are not committed for revenge or to send message is not true. You don’t really want a reason, you want to make excuse for her, just like you are making excuse for the destruction of Red Keep and treat that as normal millitary target. And it is not.

      I’m referencing what was stated in the show and D&D’s reasons for having Dany make this decision. I didn’t comment on any real life war crimes. As for my making excuses for her, I’m trying to explain the difference as I see it.

      Nowhere in any of this discussion have I excused Dany for what she ended up doing. And I also think attacking the Red Keep would be brutal and ruthless — but in line with what conquerers did before. And not nearly as scary as demolishing an entire city.

      But what is real goal?

      Her goal is not only to take the throne, her goal is “let it be fear”, her goal is revange. Her goal is to send message to Sansa that Winterfell is next is he tries to push Jon on the Iron Throne. To send message to everyone else that she will rule the world and no one can stand in her way.

      Dany’s goal seems to be the throne, that’s why she is resigning herself to fear in order to take it. But resigning herself to fear doesn’t equal going out of her way to kill an entire city full of people after she’s won the throne. But “sending a message” isn’t in her stated reasons or D&D’s reasons for why Dany committed democide. I mean, there is a case for Death of the Author but based on what the show said

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    93. Mass,

      I feel it boils down to the the fact that the two are different characters with different arcs. We all loved to hate Cersei. We knew Cersei was bad news from the start. Dany’s is a tragic story, one we didn’t see coming even with the visions from the House of Undying. Many of us loved that she destroyed her enemies and did it in such a grand way that we never stopped to think what would happen if this got out of hand. GRRM has compared the dragons to nuclear weapons, it was destined to have tragic consequences.

      I had a friend ask me if she was always meant to be bad then why didn’t they foreshadow this more in the first season. You could ask the same question about the first novel as well. It was a process, with small hints throughout. It was meant to be more obvious the later the story progressed. A lot of her loss was in season 8 alone, which was very fast paced and I’m sure was a lot for many viewers to process. But her losses and impulses were enough for me when The Bells happened. This season, well all of them, certainly aren’t without flaws. Perhaps you’ll get more of a fleshed out transition whenever the books come out. I think many will look forward to that! I’m personally hoping he releases more Dunk & Egg novels someday.

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    94. mau,

      I think the main thing is I didn’t see sufficient build-up to Dany’s democide in 805. I don’t think “let it be fear” means “okay, let’s level everyone in this place after surrender.” But I’m afraid this discussion is starting to become emotional (if I’m wrong on that, please correct me! It might be the way I’m reading tone, which can be misconstrued via text).

      Yes, taking a city is brutal, it’s always going to be brutal. There’s going to be the loss of a ton of innocent life, lives that in no way deserve it. And there’s no kind way to take a city — through force or starvation or siege. Smallfolk are the ones who bear the brunt of these terrible wars. Robert’s Rebellion, The War of the Five Kings, Robb’s campaign in the Westerlands, Battle of Blackwater, Dany’s war for the Iron Throne.

      It’s a bad time for smallfolk.

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    95. Adrianacandle,

      When Danerys decided to attack the city, it became her target. You’re right, it wasn’t planned, but when she decided to punish the people of King’s Landing, they all were her target, not just the Red Keep.

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    96. Adrianacandle,

      I just don’t understand how people didn’t realize what she was capable of after she threatened to commit mass murder by slaughtering the civilians of Astapor and Yunkai.

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    97. HelloThere,

      Game of Thrones is now and will always be my favorite TV show ever made. But I can’t get excited for any spin offs since the original show remains somewhat ruined.

      + 1.

      I could have watched the Starks. But Targs all over again with all that incest and madness? No. When someone complained that its the “frat bros” in action, there was an outcry. What will the House Targaryen be if not all that?

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    98. Young Dragon,

      Ah, I don’t know. Targeting the entire city (the Red Keep is one small part!) would be hugely inefficient and a waste of resources.

      But the impression I got was Dany was now no longer letting civilian loss of life deter her as it did before rather than deciding to target the whole city. Dany references Cersei using [Dany’s] mercy against her and Cersei is doing that vis a vis the Red Keep (to deter Dany’s attack). But now, unlike before, Dany’s willing to fight the battle in the city.

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    99. Young Dragon: I just don’t understand how people didn’t realize what she was capable of after she threatened to commit mass murder by slaughtering the civilians of Astapor and Yunkai.

      For me? Because she’s never done it and made choices to avoid civilian loss of life, even after experiencing losses due to plans that tried to save as much civilian life as possible. And she’s made statements too that contrast going after innocents.

      I’m not saying it’s an impossible or inconceivable transition to make, I’m saying I felt it needed more of a build-up. I do think it’s going that way in the books but it needs more. Words aren’t enough of a build-up for me, especially two episodes after she’s helping to defend the realm.

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    100. Adrianacandle,

      There would have been no reason to attack the Red Keep and kill Cersei along with all of the civilians if Cersei was the only one she wanted. The city had surrendered. Cersei was about to become her prisoner and would be executed.

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    101. The issue that I have is that Dany had already resigned to ruling by fear prior to her attack on KL in episode 5 (she said as much with Jon Snow), however, it was made clear that she snapped after winning and went after the civilians BECAUSE they didn’t embrace her with love.

      It makes no sense. If she had already resigned to ruling by fear, then seeing the citizens not embrace her with love shouldn’t have been the trigger that it turned out to be to kill everyone. She should’ve expected it and not been surprised by it.

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    102. Adrianacandle,

      So you’re saying you only would have accepted Danerys burning down a city, if she had already burned down a city?

      The White Walkers posed a threat to her too. She wasn’t doing the realm a favor by fighting them, she was fighting for her own survivors.

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    103. Young Dragon: There would have been no reason to attack the Red Keep and kill Cersei along with all of the civilians if Cersei was the only one she wanted. The city had surrendered. Cersei was about to become her prisoner and would be executed.

      I agree, after the city surrendered, there was no reason to do what she did. Dany should have stopped. If she had, she’d be queen. But that Dany resorted to mass killing after the surrender and didn’t even target Cersei out of anger or vengeance or make her way to the Red Keep, the thing that seemed to trigger her, makes it even more puzzling to me.

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    104. Adrianacandle,

      No, there was a reason. She wanted to punish the people of King’s Landing. It’s just that you seem like you would have accepted it if Danerys had gone after the Red Keep and that the thousands of civilians would have been collateral damage. That would not have made sense, because if Cersei was the only one she wanted, she could have killed her without killing innocents.

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    105. It is quite stunning how season 8 “the bells” strikes such a hard blow to some fans here. I was thinking most would talk about the new series and there are a bunch of comments about Dany’s turn during The Bells. Maybe it’s just the mention of the Targ house in the title that brings up those memories of betrayal or disappointment. I really do think it was just a lack of clarity where people just didn’t understand why she made the turn. Sapochnik has us look at Dany’s reaction before she went on her spree. We had to assume by her expression what was happening in her brain. Personally it was shocking at the time and i was yelling, “‘no Dany don’t kill all those people. Just go for the red keep and get Cersei”. I didn’t get why she took a detour and just started burning everything and everyone after the surrender. But it made more sense to me later after watching her scenes with Tyrion and Jon. She had no intention of accepting a surrender based on those earlier scenes. She said Mercy would be for the next generation (not this one). Cersei and Jon left her no choice but to rule by fear. The disconnect is that Sapo had that zoom in shot of Dany where she gets angry and looks like she snaps. I thought it was her plan all along so hence the disconnect. Did she snap? Or did she always plan to burn KL to rule by fear and not give in to Cersei? It was confusing.

      Perhaps there could be a backlash to the new series because of Dany’s show ending. But I’m looking forward to it. I do hope they spend more time on the ground instead of up in the air on dragons but I would like to see someone wield dark sister.

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    106. Young Dragon,

      Because threatening to do something and actually doing it are vastly different things, and nothing in her characterization, such as it was given to us all the way through S8 Ep4, ever suggested that she would incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians.

      I’ve uttered the words “I’m going to kill you” to my children. I’ve never meant them literally; it’s a figure of speech.

      One of these days I’m going to write an essay that’s long been percolating in my mind about the parallels between Cersei and Dany, and why one was perceived as intrinsically “bad” and the other as intrinsically “good.” Threatening to burn cities to the ground is something both did, but only one carried it out; Cersei’s destruction of the Sept of Baelor was ultra-targeted, whereas Dany just went apeshit. I’m simply not convinced of the reasons why.

      I’ll get back to this later. Must get ready for work. Have a wonderful day!

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    107. Young Dragon: So you’re saying you only would have accepted Danerys burning down a city, if she had already burned down a city?

      The White Walkers posed a threat to her too. She wasn’t doing the realm a favor by fighting them, she was fighting for her own survivors.

      If she had had a history of killing civilians and being unconcerned, rather than agreeing to plans to spare civilian life, I think that’d be more of a build-up. Or if we had seen Dany trying and trying and trying (letting people know her, trying to sway the people of KL through word of mouth ala Cersei’s smear campaign) and that still not being enough? Even that would help out, I think.

      I don’t get why she said Jon has the love of Westeros. Jon doesn’t. The south doesn’t even know Jon. The only people who think Jon is the greatest are the wildlings. The North is mad at him every other day. Dany had Dorne, she had High Garden, she had Yara’s part of the Iron Islands. Not through love, but not through fear either. Through negotiation.

      I agree with the second part. I’ve used that argument myself against people when they say Dany did the North a favour.

      At the same time, Dany didn’t turn around and go for Cersei in 802 when she learned of Cersei’s treachery.

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    108. Wolfish,

      Danerys has only issued on empty threat, and the only reason it was empty because she wouldn’t be able to carry it out, it wasn’t about desire. When Danerys threatened to burn down Astapor and Yunkai, she meant it completely. The reason you don’t seem to accept is the same reason people were never going to accept her burning down King’s Landing. You keep justifying and explaining away all of her threats and the terrible atrocities she committed. I asked Adrianacandle this, but would you have only accepted her burning down a city, if she burned down a city?

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    109. Young Dragon: No, there was a reason. She wanted to punish the people of King’s Landing. It’s just that you seem like you would have accepted it if Danerys had gone after the Red Keep and that the thousands of civilians would have been collateral damage. That would not have made sense, because if Cersei was the only one she wanted, she could have killed her without killing innocents.

      Had she gone after the Red Keep to take the throne, it’d be brutal and ruthless. But a legitimate form of conquering. Brutal but not on the level of wanton killing she ended up doing. Starving out a city to induce a rebellion is also brutal.

      As for punishing the people of KL, it wasn’t stated as a reason for her mass killing of the KL people. As said, that wasn’t planned.

      Dany was unhappy the people of KL didn’t rise up against Cersei but she also agreed that they were hostages in a grip of a tyrant (but said that’s not her fault). And that Cersei was using mercy against her (thus Cersei’s people shield) and Dany wasn’t going to allow that anymore. So I think that was about attacking the Red Keep, that’s what Cersei was deterring Dany from attacking. So at this point, Dany was no longer letting civilian life deter her as it did in the past, willing to wage a war in the city now rather than Tyrion’s starve-it-out suggestion. Punishing the people of KL wasn’t included in the reasons for her democide.

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    110. Tron79,

      Yes! I want to see Dark Sister, the more I think about it, the more interested I am. I’ll probably start getting excited with the casting announcements, hopefully next year. I like reading the debate about Dany, but I have said everything I could ever say in every way I can think of, so I leave it to others.

      Have you made any progress on your read through?

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    111. Jenny,

      Jenny! I spoke to my Star Wars friend and she was mentioning her ride-or-die ship: Reylo 😉 (That’s Rey x Kylo, right?) I thought of you!

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    112. Adrianacandle,

      Lol! Yes that’s right, did my witterings help you in that conversation? I feel like I’ve prepped you for such things.

      I’m not a card carrying member of Reylo, but I do know some, and they have a lot of fun with it. I’m like that person decked out in swimwear, but too scared to jump into the pool. I’ll reassess after the movie, I have learnt my lesson, keep investment at a minimum. Though they will totally team up at some point in that movie.

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    113. Jenny,

      Lol! Yes that’s right, did my witterings help you in that conversation? I feel like I’ve prepped you for such things.

      They did, actually! XD I felt informed thanks to you! I was able to say, “I’ve heard of them!” and her face lit up <3

      I’m not a card carrying member of Reylo, but I do know some, and they have a lot of fun with it. I’m like that person decked out in swimwear, but too scared to jump into the pool. I’ll reassess after the movie, I have learnt my lesson.

      Yes!! Kay has some of the same fears — she’s afraid of how it’ll end but is optimistic if that helps any? 🙂 (But I agree, some healthy caution is a good thing!)

      (But I agre

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    114. Adrianacandle,

      No, if killing Cersei and taking the Iron Throne was her only goal, attacking the Red Keep after they surrendered wouldn’t have made sense because she had already accomplished those things. The Iron Throne was hers and Cersei had, presumably, no where else to go.

      Of course it wasn’t stated out right. They didn’t dumb down the show for the audience. Danerys had a pattern of behavior of punishing those who she believes has wronged her or wouldn’t accept her rule. She decided that the people of King’s Landing were not innocent. They were free men and women who made their choice. They were not hostages of a tyrant.

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    115. Young Dragon,

      No, if killing Cersei and taking the Iron Throne was her only goal, attacking the Red Keep after they surrendered wouldn’t have made sense because she had already accomplished those things. The Iron Throne was hers and Cersei had, presumably, no where else to go.

      I’m sorry, I misunderstood! After surrender — I think destroying Cersei was definitely a goal, as well as the throne, especially after Missandei and Rheagal. My only point there was she was so enraged at Cersei, at the Red Keep, her battle plan was to go for the Red Keep, it didn’t make much sense to me why she went after the populace instead.

      I think it still would have been atrocious because she’d be killing people after surrender — but what she ended up doing was scarier, in my opinion. The people who were killed weren’t slaughtered because they were in her path to Cersei, she was deliberately going after everyone, no matter where they were. Nobody would escape her, Cersei or no.

      Neither is right, that’s not what I’m trying to say at all, but one would have made more sense to me. The other is so much more scarier in my eyes.

      Either way, at this point, I don’t think she was fit to rule any longer.

      Of course it wasn’t stated out right. They didn’t dumb down the show for the audience. Danerys had a pattern of behavior of punishing those who she believes has wronged her or wouldn’t accept her rule. She decided that the people of King’s Landing were not innocent. They were free men and women who made their choice. They were not hostages of a tyrant.

      I mean, there’s a case of Death of the Author and a viewer is free to interpret these scenes as they wish! But I didn’t really see that as one of her motives at the time – Dany had a collection of motivations, it seems — she’s enraged by the site of the Red Keep and the pain it represents. She believes she “liberated” the people of KL after she massacred them. She wants to purge the world anew.

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    116. Farimer123,

      Star wars fans are toxic I agree. How they bullied that actor that played Anakin in part 1, that little boy. It’s just, I can’t even find a word for it, sickening. Same thing happen with the last movie with the character of Rose. I can see why they had a problem with that character, but they literally (sorry Ten Bears) tear down the actress, giving insult to her appearance, it’s just horrible.

      Jack Bauer 24:

      The Walking Dead fandom is abysmal now and they’ve pretty much turned on AMC and Gimple (showrunner Season 4-8) long ago. Angela Kang (showrunner for Season 9 and 10) hasn’t seen better days either.

      It seems that once again you blame the fandom instead of the writing that is for better wording, just bad. The reason why many TWD fans turned on the show is because the show quality dropped a lot. season 1 was pretty good. 2 till 4 still good. But after that the quality dropped a lot every season. Storylines are stretched beyond what should have happen. What was about good character building turned into “Violent-porn”. The story is repeat of the earlier stories. And it seems there is not a real ending in the mind of the makers. (They want to make 25+ seasons of TWD). They even said the writers of TWD that if Game of thrones can do such shocking things, they can do it. And that’s what they tried to do since season 5, not being their own show, but tried to be next GoT.

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    117. Jenny:
      Adrianacandle,

      Always happy to help someone with these crucial matters lol.I will give you a little review in December, in the form of a 🙁 or 🙂

      Thank-you!! I’ll know how to talk to Kay then 😉 With a congratulatory approach or a sympathetic-nod approach…

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    118. Ten Bears:
      …let me make this perfectly clear… I am not taking on any scripts until I have finished and delivered WINDS OF WINTER.Winter is still coming, and WINDS remains my priority, as much as I’d love to write an episodes of HOUSE.”

      “And I want to f*ck Angie Dickenson. Let’s see who gets lucky first.”

      – Uncle Junior(retort to U.S. Attorney who tells Uncle Junior he wants to take down all of the NY-NJ mob bosses, on “The Sopranos.”)

      As for my personal preference, I hope GRRM get’s lucky first in this case 😉

      Sopranos was amazing show.

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    119. 6thofhisname,

      The problem wasn’t the ending for Dany. Even when many who can’t phantom some have issues with season 8, keep on holding onto the “They didn’t like the Dany ending they wanted to have a heroic ending for her”. No that was not it. It was not the ending. It was the route to that ending. So if the books are out and Dany turns mad there it wouldn’t have changed anything, because many didn’t have a problem with that, the journey was the problem.

      Look at it this way. Dany started out in Amsterdam, her journey ends in Rome. And instead of showing the whole route from Amsterdam to Rome, they ended her story in 8×04 in Paris (which she did 71 episodes on). And in 8×05 she teleported right at the door of Rome. They cut the most important part of the journey and blame the fans for it for not liking her ending.

      And it’s even strange that many thing that’s the reason even when clearly most arguments say that we didn’t see the important moments for her turn.

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    120. kevin1989: Sopranos was amazing show.

      Best show of all time for me. At least, the most well-written, IMO.

      Uncle Junior had some of the best one-liners. Made it all the more sad in the last episode when his dementia took over and couldn’t recognize or remember anything.

      I still watch reruns every now and then.

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    121. kevin1989:
      Farimer123,

      Star wars fans are toxic I agree. How they bullied that actor that played Anakin in part 1, that little boy. It’s just, I can’t even find a word for it, sickening. Same thing happen with the last movie with the character of Rose. I can see why they had a problem with that character, but they literally (sorry Ten Bears) tear down the actress, giving insult to her appearance, it’s just horrible.

      It seems that once again you blame the fandom instead of the writing that is for better wording, just bad. The reason why many TWD fans turned on the show is because the show quality dropped a lot. season 1 was pretty good. 2 till 4 still good. But after that the quality dropped a lot every season. Storylines are stretched beyond what should have happen. What was about good character building turned into “Violent-porn”. The story is repeat of the earlier stories. And it seems there is not a real ending in the mind of the makers. (They want to make 25+ seasons of TWD). They even said the writers of TWD that if Game of thrones can do such shocking things, they can do it. And that’s what they tried to do since season 5, not being their own show, but tried to be next GoT.

      So we’re complaining about Season 8 of GoT being too rushed and we’re also complaining that TWD story arcs are stretched? So these writers can’t win for losing huh.

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    122. Wolfish,

      I’ve uttered the words “I’m going to kill you” to my children. I’ve never meant them literally; it’s a figure of speech.

      The difference here is that it turns out Dany actually meant every word literally, all along. Obvious in hindsight, but not necessarily at the time, because the show had portrayed Dany as “one of the good guys” when the twist was that she was always the story’s main villain. Clever stuff.

      Dany just went apeshit. I’m simply not convinced of the reasons why.

      Dany’s actual decision was signposted in advance and does makes storytelling sense in the context of the show, but you have to really step back to see it (another issue with these things being rushed and lacking nuance in the final season). Dany was determined not to allow Cersei to win under any circumstances; she also wanted her actions in KL to send a message to the rest of Westeros and, given her world-conquering ambitions, to the rest of the planet too. In short, Dany was not going to allow Cersei or any other potential future adversaries to hide behind human shields. That was why she nuked KL. She was basically saying “If you’re a ruler, having a massive civilian population in the vicinity still won’t save you; and if you’re a civilian, don’t ever think of messing with me”.

      The flaw in Dany’s argument, of course, is that it negates any adversarial ruler’s rationale for surrendering at all. Why should any lord or monarch surrender to Dany’s conquering forces in future if she might ultimately decide to kill them anyway? This could actually incite them to put up even more opposition and potentially fight to the death. It would have been helpful if GoT had shown (for example) Jon and Varys or Jon and Tyrion discussing exactly this issue before Jon finally decides to kill Dany.

      Dany was a textbook case of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder developing full-scale Malignant Narcissism as she gained increasing power and success. Pretty much everything she said and did in S8 was classic MN. Victim-blaming, indifference to other people’s suffering as collateral damage to her own goals, narcissistic injury, narcissistic rage, disproportionate vengefulness, excessive entitlement, irrationality, excessive grandiosity to the extent of claiming to be the ultimate arbiter of “what is good” (as though she were literally a goddess) and stating that the rest of the planet’s population “don’t have a choice” in the matter, etc etc. The final season fumbled the depiction to some extent — as I said, it was too rushed and often lacked nuance — but overall it was still horribly realistic in terms of human psychology and the development of this major psychiatric condition, especially the psychopathic traits. This is exactly what often happens in such situations.

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    123. Adam,

      Agree.

      TormundsWoman,

      I think Harvey Dent is more comparable with Stannis. A guy that is all about Justice. That is being hurt because other’s keep on being corrupt, the thing he fights against. It result into his misfortunes which result into the dark turn in the end. (I’m talking about the books not the show).

      Young Dragon,

      I agree that Jon’s parentage resulted in the biggest event in the show. Burning of KL. If I remember correctly I was even the one that suggested that.

      But I think what Ten Bears and adam etc meant that even when the plot-reason was there, the burning of KL, it missed the character-reason. How Jon changed because of it. How he reacted to this reveal. We know that Jon doesn’t want to be King. But how does he feel that Ned lied to him for keeping him safe. How does he feel about the whole Rheagar and Lyanna were together and that that resulted in the Rebellion. That his father (ned) helped dethrone his biological family. His reaction to getting to know that Lyanna was his mother. That he was the result of the reason why Robert went to war that killed a lot of people. That Ned lied to even Cat to keep him safe. Does he feel like a Stark or a Targaryen. That he did know Aemon who was family of him. Question if the coin landed right with him.

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    124. Wolfish,

      One of these days I’m going to write an essay that’s long been percolating in my mind about the parallels between Cersei and Dany, and why one was perceived as intrinsically “bad” and the other as intrinsically “good.” Threatening to burn cities to the ground is something both did, but only one carried it out; Cersei’s destruction of the Sept of Baelor was ultra-targeted, whereas Dany just went apeshit.

      Exactly right.

      Cersei clearly didn’t care much about KL’s civilians, but at the same time she didn’t deliberately mistreat them once she was in power. Apart from taking down individuals publicly bad-mouthing her, there was no “reign of terror” involving her ordering the mass slaughter of civilians, even though she’d been subjected to the humiliating walk of shame. At the most, Cersei was indifferent to them; she certainly had no interest in their welfare or protecting them if they were under threat — see her smirking once Dany begins incinerating them in the distance — but she didn’t really care enough to hurt them directly.

      Other examples: Their attitudes to their “nearest and dearest”. Cersei had the chance to order The Mountain to execute Tyrion and Jaime for (in her view) betraying her, but when the moment came she didn’t go through with it. Dany, on the other hand, executed Varys and no doubt had similar plans for Tyrion.

      So Cersei, while not remotely a saint, wasn’t as villainous as everyone expected — just like Dany wasn’t as heroic either 😉

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    125. Wolfish: Didn’t Harvey Dent wind up with a catastrophic brain injury, the sort that results in people losing millions of brain cells and doing crazy shit like going on three-state killing sprees or voting for Trump?

      I should not read that when I was drinking, I should not have done that.

      Thanks for the laught.

      Farimer123,

      Just one question, which was the real turn. When she said so let it be fear. Or what D&D said in the inside the episode segment that it was out of the blue in the moment that she saw her parental house?
      Or was it her ambition to being the rightful queen?

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    126. Jai,

      I would also throw in that Cersei specifically had Pycelle feed the leftovers from Joffrey’s wedding to the dogs even though they were meant for the poor. All for the sake of spurning Margaery.

      Cersei had no concern for anyone in KL other than herself. Ultimately, Dany turned out to be similar, albeit through different circumstances.

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    127. Tron79,

      “But it made more sense to me later after watching her scenes with Tyrion and Jon. She had no intention of accepting a surrender based on those earlier scenes. She said Mercy would be for the next generation (not this one). Cersei and Jon left her no choice but to rule by fear. The disconnect is that Sapo had that zoom in shot of Dany where she gets angry and looks like she snaps. I thought it was her plan all along so hence the disconnect. Did she snap? Or did she always plan to burn KL to rule by fear and not give in to Cersei? It was confusing.”

      I think that what’s missing here is the political context. She needed to make a statement of the type “join me or suffer the fate of traitors”, or “this is what happens to those who betray me” but they skipped that. Somewhere in those scenes it should have been made clear that Jon abandons her politically on the 11th hour. This would mean that he’d be free to set himself up as an antagonist to her for the throne. They wouldn’t even have to go through with this line, they could just leave the rest as it was, just show Jon leaving her camp in front of KL, withholding his army.

      Instead they chose to show Jon loyal to the very end, which doesn’t make sense for this character, and attributed the betrayal to “the people” when the people owe her no allegiances in the first place (because she came as a conqueror), not to mention that the people do not take oaths of allegiance, only the feudal lords do. This made her come off as mad and Jon and Tyrion as idiots. This is what is hollow in this story. (imho)

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    128. Young Dragon:
      Adrianacandle,

      So you’re saying you only would have accepted Danerys burning down a city, if she had already burned down a city?

      The White Walkers posed a threat to her too. She wasn’t doing the realm a favor by fighting them, she was fighting for her own survivors.

      You clearly didn’t understand Daenerys if that’s your take on her. If she didn’t care and only about her own survival, she would just think, “Sorry Jon, I will fly with my 2 remaining dragons back to Essos. Grey worm prepare the ships, we’re going back. Westeros will become a wight invested kingdom, the Queen of Dragon’s Bay returns.”

      She fought because she cared. Else you don’t talk about “Relieve the world of Tyrants”. You would say “relieve the world of my enemies.”

      She even put herself in harms way to save the people in Winterfell.

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    129. Adrianacandle,

      What she ended up doing was definitely scarier. And I absolutely agree that she wasn’t fit to rule. I get what you’re saying about the Red Keep. Destroying the Red Keep would have been a snap decision, like her decision to burn King’s Landing. Both would have worked fine with me. I know this may surprise you, but Danerys is actually one of my favorite characters, and season 8 was my favorite season of hers. I love characters who are capable of doing both great and terrible things. Her arc worked for me because I’ve seen what she is capable of. When she threatened to burn down Astapor and Yunkai, I wasn’t at all comforted that she didn’t go through with it. I was horrified that was her first instinct. She was absolutely vicious and merciless to anyone she declared to be her enemy. When she no longer considered the people of King’s Landing as innocent, I knew what was about to happen.

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    130. Young Dragon:
      Adrianacandle,

      No, there was a reason. She wanted to punish the people of King’s Landing. It’s just that you seem like you would have accepted it if Danerys had gone after the Red Keep and that the thousands of civilians would have been collateral damage. That would not have made sense, because if Cersei was the only one she wanted, she could have killed her without killing innocents.

      Thanks you made the point that many are trying to make, it doesn’t made sense. Because the reason you say doesn’t make sense is the reason D&D said the reason was. It was that cersei was in her parental house that pushed her over the edge.

      Mr Derp,

      I watched it 3 times. Junior is the best. Janis the worst.

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    131. kevin1989,

      I clearly understand Danerys a lot better than you do. After all, the burning of King’s Landing coming, whereas it came as a complete shock. I don’t see how, as she’s threatened to burn down cities and commit mass murder before, but somehow you completely missed it.

      Her obsession with the Iron Throne made it so she couldn’t leave. And since she couldn’t leave, fighting the White Walkers was out of survival. I can not stress this enough, she was not doing anyone a favor by riding North, as it was in her best interest.

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    132. kevin1989,

      I don’t care what D&D say. All that matters is what is presented in the show. Danerys burning down King’s Landing was a punishment, because that fits her pattern of behavior.

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    133. Jack Bauer 24: So we’re complaining about Season 8 of GoT being too rushed and we’re also complaining that TWD story arcs are stretched? So these writers can’t win for losing huh.

      I wonder if you really watch TWD? Maybe if you watch the show you know what the fans are talking about. Got season 8 omitted many important character development. TWD keeps on adding episodes and episodes. If GoT season 8 was written by the writers of TWD it would have been given 3 seasons of 16 episodes. 8 episode to bring everyone to Winterfell with every episode about 1 character. Then 8 episodes preparing for the war to come. Then 8 episodes for the battle against the WW. Another 8 to have the party after it and everyone going south. (Already on 2 seasons of 16 episodes) Then 8 episodes with the battle with Cersei. Another 8 for Daenerys and the ending.

      And that some shows are rushed doesn’t mean not a single show out there is stretched beyond what’s needed. There’s a perfect middle-point that works.

      But it seems everything people say that you don’t agree with, you blame the fans for having an opinion instead of being objective about it and look at what they say. You put rushed and Stretched together and made a fallacy about it what I tried to say, instead of thinking what I meant with it, and deliberately omitting the third option that I clearly states as the perfect pacing that’s in between.

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    134. Young Dragon: What she ended up doing was definitely scarier. And I absolutely agree that she wasn’t fit to rule. I get what you’re saying about the Red Keep. Destroying the Red Keep would have been a snap decision, like her decision to burn King’s Landing. Both would have worked fine with me. I know this may surprise you, but Danerys is actually one of my favorite characters, and season 8 was my favorite season of hers. I love characters who are capable of doing both great and terrible things. Her arc worked for me because I’ve seen what she is capable of. When she threatened to burn down Astapor and Yunkai, I wasn’t at all comforted that she didn’t go through with it. I was horrified that was her first instinct. She was absolutely vicious and merciless to anyone she declared to be her enemy. When she no longer considered the people of King’s Landing as innocent, I knew what was about to happen.

      Totally understandable! I think we have our faves for various reasons and I can definitely appreciate your reasons.

      I knew she was capable of being ruthless and was ruthless at times but, in my view, I didn’t think she was going to go that far — deliberately going after the people. I was concerned even at the prospect of Dany going after the Red Keep, I thought that was the ceiling. I guess our point of divide is you could see it coming and I thought it needed to be developed more? (Your view is what the show canon appeared to be suggesting vis a vis the signs).

      At the end of the day, I can’t deny she went berserk.

      But thanks for giving me your own insight 🙂 I hope we can call a truce? Maybe I can with mau too?

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    135. Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      I clearly understand Danerys a lot better than you do. After all, the burning of King’s Landing coming, whereas it came as a complete shock. I don’t see how, as she’s threatened to burn down cities and commit mass murder before, but somehow you completely missed it.

      Her obsession with the Iron Throne made it so she couldn’t leave. And since she couldn’t leave, fighting the White Walkers was out of survival. I can not stress this enough, she was not doing anyone a favor by riding North, as it was in her best interest.

      If you followed my comments since season 1 you already know that I saw Dany as the villain of the story. And in season 4 I already stated that the dragon above KL was of Dany going to burn KL. So I do understand her character. I never stated she was a saint, and I already saw it back coming in season 1 that one day her fury will be on the innocent.
      But at the same time Dany does care. She care about her people, she cared about Jorah, she cared about Missandei, about Irri (back in season 1 and 2). She cared about the slaves she tried to free. (Which even upped her god complex. And even in 8×03 she cared about the common folk. If she didn’t. She would just crash burn Westeros by the WW and just pack her things and going East. Instead of convincing Cersei to help join their cause. She would not have put her own army in the most dangerous part in the plan to defeat the WW if it was about protecting herself. She wouldn’t have fought that closely to danger, she wouldn’t have intervene in the plan when too many people were dying. In that scene Jon was the pragmatic one, who states: The NK is coming.
      If she didn’t care about the people and only about herself, she wouldn’t have restored Slaver’s bay to a bay without slavery.

      Yes she has a darkness in her. That is logical would come out in the end, that’s what her character was building towards. The point is the reason. Even yourself already stated 3 different reasons in this comment section already what the reason for her burning the civilians when others pointed out that the previous reason didn’t make sense. You state that she though of before the battle, but if that’s the case D&D didn’t understand what they were writing. They stated that it was a snap when she saw Cersei sitting in her parental home, which pushed her over the edge. But if that’s the case that should have made Dany rush herself on Drogon to the red Keep and only burn what’s in between her and the Red Keep. She would have burned the whole tower down in 5 minutes and only after that keep on burning the civilians. First Cersei dead before the rest. But her turn triggered by Cersei kept waiting for a long time (my guess is at least half an hour) before she finally though: Oh wait I snapped because of Cersei, let’s deal with Cersei.
      If I snap because of something, my first action is dealing with what made me snap. Not dealing with other things first and return to that in half an hour.

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    136. Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      I don’t care what D&D say. All that matters is what is presented in the show. Danerys burning down King’s Landing was a punishment, because that fits her pattern of behavior.

      In that case you agree that D&D didn’t know what they are writing about. If they didn’t understand what was presented in the show, and gave other explanation’s than what really happened, it’s a clear sign they didn’t know what they were writing about.
      But if they knew what they were writing about, that means what they state is their intention with their writing. In that case, it’s what they stated in the inside segment, Dany snapped because of Cersei sitting in her parental home. She though of it out of the blue to burn everything. They stated in the inside segment what they wrote in the scripts, what their intentions are with that scene. And if that interpretation what they wanted to bring over to the fans, is not what the fans took away from it “Snap because Cersei sits in his home” than that means that there is a mistake in the writing in that scene.

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    137. Adrianacandle,

      Adrianna, what’s your take on GRRM only going to write for the show once he finished the books. Do you think that will be a good motivation for finishing the books? To once again write a good tv episode.

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    138. kevin1989: Adrianna, what’s your take on GRRM only going to write for the show once he finished the books. Do you think that will be a good motivation for finishing the books? To once again write a good tv episode.

      Thanks for asking me, Kevin! 🙂

      I hope so. I really do. I think he’s looking for something to push him through the tangle he’s in, force him to sort through all the threads he has going on so he can start trying to converge them for their various endgames. I really want this to work, I really want to see him finish the story as he imagined it.

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    139. kevin1989,

      I half wonder if these behind the episode video’s are a mistake, they started doing them in the Lost days, but it leaves nothing open to interpretation. You can’t really debate it because the concrete answer is out there. It sometimes feels like they can leave things vague (not just talking about GOT) because they know they can explain it afterwards.

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    140. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      Yes!I want to see Dark Sister, the more I think about it, the more interested I am.I’ll probably start getting excited with the casting announcements, hopefully next year.I like reading the debate about Dany, but I have said everything I could ever say in every way I can think of, so I leave it to others.

      Have you made any progress on your read through?

      I know what you mean about the season 8 debate. I’ve said it all too but what is telling is much it still hurts people when Targs are mentioned! I personally have made peace with it and I can appreciate the season for what they produced. As I’m reading i have been appreciating d&d much more because I do think they made some great dramatic decisions for TV that stray from the books. I am less hard on d&d than others because they did the best they could with an outline and no more source material.

      My book progress is going well. Thanks for asking. I didn’t want to interrupt the discussion on the new series since it was sad news about blood moon but exciting news about House or the Dragon. Some may think it’s a Kung fu / karate movie and get disappointed!

      I really feel like I’m on the home stretch in the books now. I only have about 100 pages left in AFFC. My next 150 pages though are in ADWD before I get back to finish AFFC. I did get to Arya’s next chapter!

      I loved how she became much more part of the community as CAT. In the show she really stayed on the periphery. In the books she lived as CAT amongst the townsfolk. I loved that. I was totally confused when she killed the Nights Watch deserter off screen. I said..wait what just happened. I re-read it a couple of times and I understood. From being a show watcher I was waiting for Meryn Trant to show up in the brothel. Especially when CAT went into the brothel I was waiting for the show scene. So I was a bit shocked about what happened. I didn’t totally get Arya’s motivation. I am thinking that her father executed nw deserters and when the nw singer guy mentioned lord snow that may have pushed her over the edge. But Arya is definitely deadly. She just doesn’t seem to be as motivated by her kill list as she is in the show. I love the HOBAW in the books. The waif is more of a teacher so far. Arya is getting better at spotting lies. And now she is blind. I think I have around 15 chapters to go to get to the blind girl chapter.

      So I could write a lot more but I’m using my thumbs on my phone so it’s harder! I left Brienne in a bad way after her last chapter so I’m hoping to get through these next several ADWD chapters to find out what happened to brienne back in AFFC. I did
      Get to bran’s chapter and that was pretty awesome and much more detail than the show. I’m not sure why the show didn’t at least include some of those details from the tree cave and his initial experiences with how the trees work and intertwine with him. Right now I’m with Jon as he went beyond the wall with ghost and a new group of recruits.

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    141. Mr Derp:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Only if you are under the misconception that writers are infallible and are above criticism.

      I seem to recall you were critical of the Walking Dead in previous threads yourself.

      Above criticism? No. But in today’s social media age, it’s more abuse then criticism it seems. For the record, I am still watching TWD. I’ve watched all 135 episodes. Shows/writing change after that many seasons and episodes and I enjoy it for what it is now. There’s no point in belittling and abusing the creators. It’s there work for me to spend my time with and if I start to dislike it, I can and I will move on. It’s that simple. I don’t need to put out entire essays on the “bad writing” and/or “horrible and malicious showrunners”. I don’t need to blame the creators for anything and everything that goes wrong with the franchise. It’s gotten bizarre.

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    142. kevin1989,

      No, absolutely not. D&D knew what they were writing, my interpretation didn’t match their intentions. They’re hardly the first. My interpretation didn’t always match Martin’s intentions either. For example, he claims that Doran Martell is a master planner, but I see him as an incompetent moron.

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    143. Jack Bauer 24,

      There’s a large difference between constructive criticism and belittling and abusing creators though.

      I agree 100% that abusing and belittling (personal attacks, etc…) are hurtful and shouldn’t happen, but there’s nothing at all wrong with constructive criticism or a dissenting opinion. There’s an entire spectrum in between. A lot of fans have become way too entitled, but there’s still a lot of fans that are not this way too. You’re choosing to focus on the negative.

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    144. Tron79,

      ”…exciting news about House or the Dragon. Some may think it’s a Kung fu / karate movie and get disappointed..”

      I’d like that idea!
      Martial Arts x Targs x Red Temple Priestesses…

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    145. Why not CSI: King’s Landing?

      Tyrion, Brienne & Pod try to solve the weekly murder with the scientific help from Sam. They can’t figure it out, so they ask the Three-Eyed Raven. 5 minutes later, Bronn is in jail. Case solved.

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    146. kevin1989,

      Sorry, I may have misspoke. When I said she was fighting for survival, I was talking about herself, her dragons, and her followers. She was not fighting for the North. She was not fighting for the people of King’s Landing. She was not doing anyone a favor, because the White Walkers were her problem too.

      Like I said, she cares about the common folk only as long as it suits her. She freed slaves, but when Yunkai and Astapor attacked, she still was prepared to slaughter the very slaves she was trying to save in order to punish the few people responsible for attacking her city. She expected that the people of King’s Landing would be begging her to overthrow Cersei, but that didn’t happen. But that wasn’t the case. They feared Danerys more, and because of their inaction, she lost Rhaegal and Missandei.

      Yes, I’ve given several reasons why she turned. Do you know why? Because there are several reasons why she turned, all of them happening at once. That’s what made it that much more believable.

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    147. Jenny,

      That’s an interesting topic.

      I personally think the Behind the Scenes videos along with directors interviews for in-depth analysis of scenes are honest vids. I appreciate them. But it does leave exposed some raw faults, errors or inexperience. The Alex Graves interview where he explained the Jaime/Cersei rape scene was one of those terrible examples where you go: what the living fuuuuuu! And it wasn’t helped in any way by NWC or Benioff and Weiss either when they stepped in.

      Should they come out and explain their work? I think it’s better to know what the author/s is thinking however much they triplicate the problem. Why? Because it gives you an idea if what they wanted actually came through. It will never change what’s on screen but it’s how you can definitely say that they did do the job they set up for themselves. Or if they are completely clueless.

      Plus many times they give you some insight into how they work what the process is and oftentimes it’s fun.

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    148. Tron79,

      Some fans will never forgive the show for Dany, and it still doesn’t feel that long ago to me, in time people will get over it. And in a few years it’s harshest critics may soften, or not. I think you are in the right frame of mind RE: Book to show changes, there are only a handful of changes that I really don’t like, but for the most part they are understandable. I bang on about LotR, and even I don’t like some of Peter Jackson’s changes (Faramir and Theoden in Two Towers) still love the movies. Plus its always better to see an adaptation before reading the book.

      Ooh interesting, you have made good progress, and now I can say that I will never forgive GRRM for the Brienne thing, it was absolutely horrifying, but it did give us the epic line, ‘no chance and no choice’. I just have to wonder, why GRRM is making her suffer so much, what is it for? She’s the one on the ground seeing the effects of war and what has she gotten out of it? More to come I’m afraid.

      Yes, I like the HoBaW in the books as well, I never really understood the antagonistic nature of it in the show, people didn’t seem to like it much and just wanted it over in S6. It’s just a creative choice they made. I think you are right about her motivations, it’s the law, and he slighted Jon, a HUGE no no. Trant made much more sense in the show.

      Bran is a puzzle, now that we know what we know, I should probably reread his chapters.

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    149. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”…exciting news about House or the Dragon. Some may think it’s a Kung fu / karate movie and get disappointed..”

      I’d like that idea!Martial Arts x Targs x Red Temple Priestesses…

      Yeah. A red priestess who studied the lost Valyrian martial arts. I’m ready!

        Quote  Reply

    150. Ten Bears,

      He deserved it 😀 And Bryce Harper brought the title back to DC :p #MissionAccomplished

      kevin1989,

      You might be right about it, I didn’t think about it before. The show Stannis too if you think he’s sacrificing Shireen and he knows he’s doing wrong. Dent was willing to sacrifice Gordon’s son to punish what he thought was an injustice. And he knew he’ll be sacrificing an innocent. A calculated wrong that he was never proud of.

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    151. TormundsWoman,

      It’s funny, I questioned whether it was a good idea, and yet I agree with everything you said haha. It is useful, but it does open writers up to more criticism, criticism that they probably wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. Who can forget the infamous ‘she kind of forgot’ line that people became irate about. I really like the behind the scenes videos, the ones that mainly focus on the technical aspects. Perhaps it would have been better to put them out after 2-3 episodes rather than every one? I don’t know, for GOT specifically, they seemed to muddy the waters. As you can see I don’t have a concrete opinion on this lol.

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    152. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      Some fans will never forgive the show for Dany, and it still doesn’t feel that long ago to me, in time people will get over it.And in a few years it’s harshest critics may soften, or not.I think you are in the right frame of mind RE: Book to show changes, there are only a handful of changes that I really don’t like, but for the most part they are understandable. I bang on about LotR, and even I don’t like some of Peter Jackson’s changes (Faramir and Theoden in Two Towers) still love the movies.Plus its always better to see an adaptation before reading the book.

      Ooh interesting, you have made good progress, and now I can say that I will never forgive GRRM for the Brienne thing, it was absolutely horrifying, but it did give us the epic line, ‘no chance and no choice’.I just have to wonder, why GRRM is making her suffer so much, what is it for?She’s the one on the ground seeing the effects of war and what has she gotten out of it?More to come I’m afraid.

      Yes, I like the HoBaW in the books as well, I never really understood the antagonistic nature of it in the show, people didn’t seem to like it much and just wanted it over in S6.It’s just a creative choice they made.I think you are right about her motivations, it’s the law, and he slighted Jon, a HUGE no no.Trant made much more sense in the show.

      Bran is a puzzle, now that we know what we know, I should probably reread his chapters.

      There’s one more chapter left for Brienne once I get back to AFFC. I’ll get to finish the book once I get done with these next several ADWD chapters. Her last chapter was really shocking and I understand how you feel.

      I’m back at a computer and I remembered one other really shocking chapter. I get these “Whoa wait a minute” moments that weren’t in the show. Mel’s chapter was a great one.

      First I loved how she used some magician tricks up her sleeves with her powders. She does have some magic, but she also relies on some tricks of the trade too.
      There were lots of clues from her visions that I can’t say I understand yet. I’m not sure who the “wooden” person in Mel’s dreams would be. I’m also not positive which Wolf boy is the Wolf boy in her visions. Jon isn’t exactly a boy, so I’m guessing that’s Bran? But lots of mysteries. As others have said, GRRM likes to plant the seeds and setup a puzzle. I just hope he didn’t lose the last piece somewhere under the couch!

      When Rattleshirt morphs to Mance Rayder I just about fell over. I’m still not positive if Mance is real and Rattleshirt was the glamour or the other way around. I’m thinking Mance is really alive! That would be huge. But I could be wrong, it could be that Mance is the glamour and Rattleshirt is alive… I’m thinking Mance is alive…
      Anyway, it was definitely a “Whoa what just happened” moment! Again, there is alot more depth to Mel and her powers in the books as compared to the show.

      I will say there are plus’ and minus’ to using the combined book method (boiled leather). I think it’s best at the beginning so you can catch up with your favorite characters in both books without having to wait 1000 pages. The farther I get though, the more I have felt a bit jolted going back and forth. Brienne is one good example. There would have only been 4 chapters in AFFC until I got to the next Brienne chapter, if I would have just read AFFC by itself. I was left hanging after the last Brienne chapter. In boiled leather I have 15 chapters in between! Ugg…That’s a long time when you don’t want to leave her alone and you want to see what happens. And I think GRRM naturally builds the end of his books to a crescendo so you can feel things building as AFFC gets closer to the end… But one huge positive for me is that it’s great to read both as one large book, because once you finish it, you are done! That’s motivating for me since I’m not a big reader.

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    153. Jenny:
      TormundsWoman,

      It’s funny, I questioned whether it was a good idea, and yet I agree with everything you said haha.It is useful, but it does open writers up to more criticism, criticism that they probably wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.Who can forget the infamous ‘she kind of forgot’ line that people became irate about.I really like the behind the scenes videos, the ones that mainly focus on the technical aspects.Perhaps it would have been better to put them out after 2-3 episodes rather than every one?I don’t know, for GOT specifically, they seemed to muddy the waters.As you can see I don’t have a concrete opinion on this lol.

      But Dany did “kinda forget”. That was the point. She was too smug and didn’t concern herself with Euron and she paid the price.

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    154. Jack Bauer 24,

      Tyrion and the Unsullied forgot too though. At least, that’s certainly what it looked like since they were all surprised by the attack even though they were about to enter the perfect place for a trap. They all should’ve been on high alert, even Drogon, yet they weren’t.

      They were all taken by surprise even though they were approaching enemy territory (Dragonstone is right near KL and the Bay of Blackwater) and they were just previously warned about the IF. Dany had aerial superiority over the IF, yet somehow the IF saw her before she saw them. Just dumb.They shouldn’t have been surprised.

      If D&D wanted to have Dany forget about them then fine, that’s their choice to make. But, IMO, that scene made them all look completely daft. I know plenty of people were fine with the scene as it was, and that’s ok. Personally, it’s hard for me to root for characters to win when they act so clueless at the most crucial times.

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    155. Adrianacandle,

      Same here, I hope this helps. Somehow I have high hopes winds will be released sooner than later. And I hope lots of storylines stops there, so that dream is much easier for him to write. What makes winds so difficult now is that there are many and many storylines that need to come together.

      Jenny,

      I remember those clips from LOST, they were fun to watch. Lost untangled if I’m not mistaken.

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    156. Dee Stark:
      this is soooooooo off topic, but has anyone seen Watchmen? is it any good?

      I’ve only watched the first episode. I thought it was ‘okay’ – but apparently not great in my mind because I haven’t thought about watching the next. *shrug* I will eventually.

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    157. Tron79,

      I think it was that Dareon deserted Jon. She understood that Jon was the lord Commander. I think it was with that. And with Brienne did she end with a certain character that you’ve been waiting for?

      And I agree with what you say about Bran chapter.

      Young Dragon,

      And which interpretation is the right one? The one that the writer intended or the many many different ways many fans interpreter it. And doesn’t a good writer get their intentions known to the viewers? And if not adjust their script so it will be 100% clear to the viewers what they intended to do?

      As for Doran, that still is up for debate until winds is out. Doran is either a master planner or a complete failure. It all depends what winds bring for Doran. But for me somebody who can hold their plan secret against LF and Varys is pretty damn good. Those 2 know everything except what Doran has planned. And maybe we find out that Doran is just a selfish prick, some suspect he never intended his children’s journey to succeed.

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    158. Tron79: Yeah. A red priestess who studied the lost Valyrian martial arts. I’m ready!

      … Which brings to mind another entry for my fancasting wish list:

      • Ally Ioannides. A terrific young actress. She was scary good in a guest-starting role in an episode of “Elementary” (with Jonny Lee Miller as Sherlock Holmes) about three years ago.

      She also played one of the leads (“Tilda”) in the 2015 – 2019, 32-episode AMC? series “Into the Badlands,” a martial arts drama set in a dystopian future. However, I never got into that show, so I can’t say if it was any good.

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    159. Young Dragon,

      Agree with this. Her turn was on the way. And I agree with when Dany is angry and her ideals are attacked (Like when she made that comment about turning Meereen into the dirt), she forgets that she turns into what she is fighting. She always had that dark in her, and it was always leading to where it ended. And yes the death of Jorah, Missandei & Rheagal made her emotional weak, that turn we didn’t see. It could have been done within 10 minutes showing her decline between episode 4 and 5. Just 10 minutes. Episode 4 ended with her angry and strong. Beginning of 5 she was already torn. Then once again the episode changed in Dany once again showing her powerful self. And 5 minutes later she declines again.
      Yes her ending there made sense, but we didn’t get the glue that should have been shown. The missing link. And why they exclude it I still don’t understand, that could have been the 10 best minutes of season 8, if we saw those missing 2 weeks. Viewers don’t need to fill in the blanks when the blanks could have been shown in a interesting way, it’s not that showing those 2 weeks would have dragged the story, it would even enhance it.

      As for made it much more believable. If it was believable, people wouldn’t have a problem with it. They would have cheered it as the best character develop moments of the saga. GoT fans love character drama and development like that. Jaime’s bath-scene. Cat dark turn in 3×09. Arya’s first kill. And many more. And that they didn’t like Dany’s turn is not the case for the backlash. We rated Ned’s death, the Red Wedding, Oberyn’s death as high rated episodes. There was no “They killed our favorite character, she show is bad” They reacted that the way it was done was brilliant.

      And as for Dany’s turn. If her turn was emotional based, the death of Rheagal and Missandei. Why did she tell and show the audience that her motives were political: Liberate the world of tyrant? So which was her, did she react out of emotion, or out of rationality to rid the world of tyrants?

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    160. kevin1989,

      There is no right interpretation. Everyone has their own. The arguments for why people interpret something a certain way, well, let’s just say some are better than others.

      If the differing interpretations in GOT mean D&D have failed, then every writer has failed. Again, let’s take Martin’s books, for example. This Danerys debate isn’t new. People have been arguing for years whether or not Danerys is the villain or the hero of the story. The same exact debate is going on with Stannis. People are even saying the Red Wedding was justified and Walder Frey was in the right. Would you say Martin has failed to get his intentions across?

      Personally, I think Doran is going to team up with Aegon, but that does not make him a master planner. His plans to marry Arianne to Viserys and Quentyn to Danerys has failed. Aegon just fell into his lap. How do you know Littlefinger and Varys don’t know what he’s planning? Even if they don’t, it’s probably because Doran has done the bare minimum. And there’s no textual evidence Doran doesn’t care about his children.

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    161. Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      If Martin wasn’t motivated enough to finish the books before the show spoiled his ending, nothing will motivate him.

      Martin already explained it was due to the stress it gave him. He was motivated. He told it in an interview that was posted on this site. I will not say anything more about it. You can make it your own twist on it, but I will not go into that.

      TormundsWoman,

      Agree with the fun part. I always find it fun to watch behind the scenes clip of many shows.

      TormundsWoman,

      True but I think even it’s more true for the books. I mean Stannis doesn’t want to sacrafice Shireen there, it will happen because of the Pink Letter. (And I’m 100% certain he is alive, he will be a contender for Dany.) He will be pissed at Mel for doing that. Nobody listens to him, and all he wants is justice. And he finally saw the power of the old gods (Winds chapter), I think he will think: The lord of light didn’t do nothing for me. He doesn’t listen to me, Mel disobeyed my orders. But the old gods helped me with real power. He will be done with Mel and the lord of light once Mel return to Winterfel with Jon.

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    162. kevin1989,
      People had a problem with it because they kept justifying Dany’s decisions all the way to the end. Everything we needed, though, had already been given to us. We saw her kill to culminate power, we saw her kill to punish those who have wronged her, we saw her kill innocent people when she was upset or angry, we saw her kill people who wouldn’t subject themselves to her rule, we saw her threaten to massacre the innocent civilians of two cities, we saw her trusted adviser talk her out of it, we saw her lose faith in the very same trusted adviser who talked her out of massacring those two cities, we saw Cersei push her to the edge, farther than we’ve ever seen her pushed before, certainly farther than she was pushed when she threatened to burn down two cities. What more could you possibly have needed? And trust me, those were some of the most amazing 10 minutes of the entire show and I was able to enjoy every second of it because I watched Dany’s journey unfold without bias or prejudice. I wish you could have enjoyed those 10 minutes as well.

      She was also trying to justify her actions. To Danerys, she did save the future generation of King’s Landing from a tyrant. Hence her saying, “The new world won’t be built by men loyal to the one we have.” That might not be an exact quote.

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    163. Random thought…

      I was thinking about “breaking the wheel” the other day, and how the wheel supposedly ended up breaking by no longer having blood right to the throne (this is according to Tyrion in the last episode anyway).

      However, has the wheel really been broken?

      A lot of kings/queens took the throne without blood right.

      Also, how does eliminating blood right to the throne actually break anything? Wouldn’t that actually make things messier in the long run by forcing rival factions to go to war over the throne without a system of succession in place?

      Or, is Bran simply going to live forever, therefore, he’s king in perpetuity and that’s how the wheel has been broken?

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    164. Tron79,

      I think it’s Bran and the wooden is 3er. Which I found strange because isn’t the 3er helping to defeat the others? And if you want to know if Mance is Mance, think back at Mance burning. How he reacted. Does that sound as mance, or more the lord of Bones? As for Brienne. Brienne’s journey is amazing in feast. At least my opinion.

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    165. Young Dragon,

      As for Daenerys and Stannis in the books. We don’t know if Martin has brought over the intentions of those characters in the right way, because we haven’t yet got to the end point of those characters. So who knows where they land with the villain or Hero. Both of Stannis and Daenerys can land in both category depends of their actions in winds. Both had done evil deeds, and both have done heroic deeds.

      And I wasn’t talking about if somebody is good or evil. That depends on the beholder. Some would see Daenerys action in 8×05 not as evil. I will not agree with them, killing that many people. Still some can interpreted into another way. But I think it’s clear that D&D went for the evil side of the coin.
      What I was talking about was motivation for action that a character does, and especially a main character like Dany who has done the most crucial action of the whole saga, burning KL. That motivation should not left hanging up to debate. It should be straight forward. And you compare that to a viewing of a character if the character is good or evil. But a more right comparison was: Did we know the motivation of Walder Frey for killing everyone at the red wedding? Did we know the motivation for Arya to kill Polliver? Did we know the motivation for Jon to get the wildings south of the wall? Did we get the reason why Cersei blew up the sept of Baelor? Did we get the motivation of Daenerys burning KL to ash?
      We got all those motivations clearly given to us viewers, it’s not up to debate why they did it. Except for one. The motivation of Daenerys is not clear.

      As for Doran: We don’t know anything about his motives. And it seems he loves his children I agree. And I think if Varys knew about Doran’s plan, he would have stopped Quentyn from ever reaching Daenerys. A suitor other than Aegon would have been a problem for Varys. And another thing that shows Varys doesn’t know is that he didn’t intervene when the mariage pact between Viserys and Arianne was made. Else he would have destroyed that pact from the beginning, because it’s a problem for Varys. But if you ask if Doran will succeed with his plan? I think not. I think he will succeed for a while. But then a beautiful silver lady will undo his plans.

      Killing his daughter.

      . And also his plans are solid. But he is too slow until he acts. Both his pacts went up in flame. And Arianne needed to improvise.

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    166. Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,
      People had a problem with it because they kept justifying Dany’s decisions all the way to the end. Everything we needed, though, had already been given to us.

      No that’s what you made of it, that’s not what is happening with the critique. I have issues with it, so do many more in this comment section with the last straw of Dany’s turn. And many stated already that they though Dany was the villain of the story since season 1. I had a problem with it in the end, like the glue of the story was missing, that I wish was there.

      And the thing is, yes it’s logical that in the end she would flip. As you stated the reasons were there, but the way those reasons were presented didn’t make sense. And the most crucial part of Dany’s turn was dismissed. The missing 2 weeks. You maybe are of the opinion that it doesn’t matter that those 2 weeks were missing. But in fact it does, it’s the part that the ending was about. Her change from angry at Cersei and it seems that she would go fire and blood only on Cersei as a strong woman, you can’t deny that that’s the picture that the ending of 8×04 gave us. And then we didn’t saw her decline into the paranoia she already possessed in the beginning of 8×05. We can all fill in the blanks that the only advisor Grey worm helped fuel that. And that she start to distrust Tyrion. And the distrust for Jon etc. That was the real turn, the missing 2 weeks that we need to fill in ourselves. And also did the poison of Varys maybe be a part of it? Why not include if Varys succeeded with it. I mean do we really believe he starts poisoning Dany after 14 days instead of directly when she loses her mind?

      As for 8×05. I never stated that I disliked 8×05. I won’t rate any got episode below 8,0 so that says at least what the lowest I go with 8×05. (Which is not my least favorite episode and maybe rate it even a 9,0). I just state that the missing link is a writing mistake. And that’s the fault of episode 4 being 1 big episode instead of 2.

      Mr Derp,

      interesting. Can Bran die?

      Maybe a nice idea for a sequel. 300 years later. Bran still rules. A war breaks out against the dark king Bran. The heroes needs to not only fight him, but also be on their toes, spies are everywhere. Dark ravens. And he finally had control over Drogon.

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    167. Mr Derp,

      None of the questions that you raise have been answered. As per the script, now there’s “good people” in the council. That of course doesn’t secure any stability by itself. Electing a new king after Bran’s passing doesn’t secure that that king wouldn’t want to reestablish hereditary transmission of the office to his successors. Not even Bran’s election wouldn’t secure that the lords wouldn’t try to bring back the old system in a year or two. So… I suppose they just didn’t bother to show anything more complicated than that.
      (I think Martin is going for semi-independent kingdoms, perhaps with a senate surrounding the king where all the kingdoms are equally represented. I fail to see how in this system the North would be independent).

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    168. Ten Bears: … Which brings to mind another entry for my fancasting wish list:

      • Ally Ioannides. A terrific young actress. She was scary good in a guest-starting role in an episode of “Elementary” (with Jonny Lee Miller as Sherlock Holmes) about three years ago.

      She also played one of the leads (“Tilda”) in the 2015 – 2019, 32-episode AMC? series “Into the Badlands,” a martial arts drama set in a dystopian future. However, I never got into that show, so I can’t say if it was any good.

      I’ll have to go back and watch them. I did watch a few episodes of Into the Badlands. When I’m done with ASOIAF I will go back and watch some of those…

      You know who is really good at martial arts? Sand Snake Jessica Henwick! She was absolutely the best part of Iron Fist. I’m sorry to say Loras (Finn Jones) was just awful, and the whole series was just awful. But I enjoyed Jessica Henwick’s scenes. She was very graceful.

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    169. kevin1989,

      Uh, no. Martin should have a pretty clear idea of who his characters are at this point. People are interpreting his characters in different ways, which means a lot of their interpretations don’t match Martin’s intentions. According to you, that means Martin has failed, right, or do you simply hold D&D to a higher standard?

      Her motivation shouldn’t be left up for debate, I agree, but that depends on her fans. I provided a list of all the terrible things she’s done, a road map that led her to burn down King’s Landing, yet people bend over backwards to justify her actions. They were never going to accept it under any circumstances.

      Doran told us his plan. It was a plan that literally went up in flames the next book. We have absolutely no reason to believe that Doran’s plan goes beyond that. As for Varys, maybe he thought Doran’s plan was so weak there was no reason to get involved. It will fail on its own.

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    170. Tron79,

      Yeah, it’s perplexing with Mel, Mance-lord of bones. I really felt for Jon when he got his ass beaten up by Mance. I wonder if Martin’s preparing something there because Jon thinks of sth very specific.
      The wooden face is the 3eyed raven and Bran. But Jon is also described as wolf-man, but not in this chapter I think.
      The thing is, I think Martin is establishing in these chapters that Mel is wrong about many things, which she even admits to herself, but she also thinks that she’s stronger at the Wall because of its magic. Thus somehow she’s being prepared for resurrecting Jon. Also the reader I think is being prepared for Sansa’s arrival, the girl in grey. But both these are in the WoW. We’re left pending.

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    171. Young Dragon,

      as much as I remember, in all the scenes that dany was acting fierce and brutal, she was clear that she didn’t like to hurt innocent people( in astapor she orders unsullied to kill masters and not people, in S7 she tells that she is not cersei and she wasn’t there to destroy cities and kill people,but she threatens lannister army(her enemies to bend the knee, same for mereen, in season 6 she burns khals and not dothraki soldiers). so if you claim that her brutality was always there to see, her clear points of not hurting innocent was also there. in my opinion, considering her character background, her prior actions and mentality, it was acceptable to see her destroy red keep, kill cersei and thousands of innocent people who were inside red keep to be safe, but not killing 1 million innocent people, people who hats cersei. there is only one mental condition that justifies dany’s act to kill 1 million innocent men, women and children living in KL who have done nothing wrong to dany: targaryen madness. like her father.

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    172. kevin1989,

      Sorry, but it’s hard for me to think otherwise when the response to my pointing out she threatened to burn down two cities was “Well, at least she didn’t go through with it.” I mean, that’s sort of ridiculous. People should have been freaked out that her first instinct was to massacre thousands of innocent people. At the very least, they should have been very uncomfortable. But no, they were relieved. That’s it. Relief was all they took from that scene.

      What missing two weeks? We saw how Missandei’s death affected her. We saw how Rhaegal’s death affected her. We saw how Jon’s parentage and how people were using the information was affecting her. We saw her declare the people of King’s Landing were no longer innocent. We were given everything we needed to follow Dany’s decision.

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    173. kevin1989:

      I think it’s Bran and the wooden is 3er. Which I found strange because isn’t the 3er helping to defeat the others? And if you want to know if Mance is Mance, think back at Mance burning. How he reacted. Does that sound as mance, or more the lord of Bones? As for Brienne. Brienne’s journey is amazing in feast. At least my opinion.

      That could be….

      I was thinking it was Bran, but I couldn’t figure out the wooden reference, but it’s possible that it’s a tree wood! I’ll have to go back and re-read when Mance got burned. I’m thinking it’s really Mance and that’s an awesome twist they didn’t do in the show.

      I do like how the 3ER (or LEAF maybe?) was explaining that not only could Bran see through the trees, but he could eventually see without the trees… I don’t remember the exact line, but that was the idea. That actually explains alot. The 3ER says he can’t change the past and people can’t really hear him (it’s just the wind), but I’m guessing he can change or at least interact with the past since the HODOR scene is yet to come in the books and that’s one that GRRM told D&D about… Bran has a number of visions that I’m not sure about in his last chapter… I will have to study them!
      But that’s it for Bran in the books. It doesn’t look like he has any other chapters….
      I liked the revelation that sending a raven with a message was something wargs did…and in modern times they use parchment. But that explains alot about how the birds figured out where they were going! Bran could still see a girl who was a skinchanger who was dead but used to co-habit the raven he slipped into…

      regarding Brienne… I’m hoping Pod shows up to help her with the awful Biter character or at least distract him for a minute while she can get her bearings… We shall see in about 12 chapters…

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    174. Young Dragon,

      her mentioning that she wouls burn cities to the ground is something called “idle threat”. it is not too complicated. people in many cases when they feel weak use idle threats to offset their lack of power. to understand what idle threat is and how what people say as a threat in time of anger is not a proof that they would really act as they say, i reccomend you to watch “12 angry men”.

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    175. Young Dragon,

      BTW, tyrion in his trial mentioned that he would be happy to poison people of KL and watch them die. was this threat part of his character? as a character depicted by D&D, do you believe that tyrion would be able to fulfill the threat he made? poison all people of KL and watch happily their death. when tyrion was making his statement, did you get the impression that this is what tyrion is?

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    176. Efi,

      You mean that ASOIAF is a prequel to Star Wars?
      Is Bran secretly the senate Palpatine?

      Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      Uh, no. Martin should have a pretty clear idea of who his characters are at this point. People are interpreting his characters in different ways, which means a lot of their interpretations don’t match Martin’s intentions. According to you, that means Martin has failed, right, or do you simply hold D&D to a higher standard?

      Her motivation shouldn’t be left up for debate, I agree, but that depends on her fans. I provided a list of all the terrible things she’s done, a road map that led her to burn down King’s Landing, yet people bend over backwards to justify her actions. They were never going to accept it under any circumstances.

      You see the mistake you’re making here right? With D&D their work is done, it ended. Which means everything needs to be clear.
      As for where Martin is with his books, the intentions of the characters are on purpose unclear, it’s like a puzzle, he does this on purpose. He will reveal that in his later books. And once Dream is done everything is clear who every character is. There’s a reason why he left out the motivation of Tyrion for instance when he pushes Aegon to westeros. We think, good guy Tyrion. Chapter later we found out Tyrion played Aegon. But the extend of that we don’t yet know until winds is out. And it’s for us to decide if we condemn or condone Tyrion’s action here.
      As martin says himself, he does that on purpose so people question his characters motive, until those motives are clear. We don’t know yet if the CotF are good or bad in the books.

      And it seems you also missed my point I tried to make and seem to ignore that part of that. The interpretation of an action is not for the writer to decide, everyone has a different moral standard. That’s also what GRRM book is about, what makes somebody good or evil. For instance Jaime pushed Bran out of the window. We can decide or self if we hate him for it, found him evil because he pushed a kid to his dead (that was his intend), or that we understand that action because he was thinking of the lives of Cersei and his children. Which is the other side of it. Which side do you choose? There’s no right interpretation. Maybe a right moral standpoint.
      But what do we know is the motivation of Jaime pushing Bran at that moment. His children and Cercei. Martin told us that in Jaime’s POV. We got to know the motive. (which also mean we still got time 2 books for the motives of actions we don’t yet know as of now)
      As for Dany, her motive is not clear why she did it. That should be known to the viewers, and there should only be 1 answer to that. The motive of the action. The judging of the character is up to the viewer itself.

      So I ask another question: What was the motive of Walder frey for killing Robb Stark? And a second question, is that an answer that everyone has because the show told us that straight on?

      It’s because Robb betrayed the pact he made with Walder about Marrying his daughter. And yes it was clear to the audience because you know Walder told it straight out: He was suppose to marry my daughter.
      With Dany. Nope not a clear motive that the viewers got from it.

      So the problem is motive, not the judging of the action. One needs to be made clear by the writers at the end of the last book for every character, or at the end of the last season. Which for martin we don’t know if he failed in it or not, with D&D we know they made mistakes. (the problems you stated with martin is still is progress and still get their resolve). But the judging of action is for everyone different and not a mistake if everyone seem to choose a different side. (We all have different moral standpoint)

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    177. Efi,

      The girl in Grey is I think Jeyne Poole, she is send to the wall by Stannis and wears a grey. And she was beaten by Ramsay into believing she is Arya. That’s why Mel thinks is Arya because Jeyne will arrive at the wall in winds on a dying horse stating she is Arya Stark who fled from the Boltons. Mel witness that vision, Jeyne arriving at the wall telling she is Arya. Sansa doesn’t make sense, because Sansa wouldn’t tell the world she is Arya. And it also doesn’t make sense timeline wise. Or Jon needs to stay at the wall for weeks until he finally goes after Ramsay. Jon died, will resurect and probably within a day, mel won’t wait will burning Shireen once she read Stannis is fallen. She act directly and burn Shireen probably the same day. Jon resurrect. Sansa is still in the Vale when this happen and it takes weeks for her to get to the Wall. In Which Jon is already on the march. Except if Sansa’s storyline is way behind and her arc in winds is around the time of the Dance storyline. But that would mean we won’t see Jon for probably half a book. Because Sansa needs to do a lot until she can go north. her story needs to intersect with LSH at least before going north.

      Oh maybe I’m wrong and it’s about Arya herself.
      https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5sn008/spoilers_extended_the_girl_in_grey_on_a_dying/

      Scroll down to the part about Arya going to the god’s eye.

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    178. mass,

      She said she didn’t want to hurt the innocent when it suited her. However, when her emotions were running high, we saw that wasn’t the case. She was angry about the 163 crucified children, so she chose 163 masters at random and crucified them, despite some of them being innocent. She was angry about Ser Barristan’s death, so she fed an innocent man to her dragons, without even bothering to determine his guilt. She was angry that Yunkai and Astapor were attacking Mereen, so she wanted to burn their cities to the ground in retaliation, killing thousands of innocent people.

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    179. mass,

      No, Danerys did not issue an idle threat when she threatened to burn down Astapor and Yunkai. As you said, idle threats are issued from a position of weakness, but that was not Dany’s position at all. She had the Unsullied, the Dothraki, and three dragons. The masters didn’t stand a chance. After all, she and Tyrion weren’t trying to come up with some desperate plan to defeat them. They were discussing how badly they were going to beat them. Regardless of all of that, idle threats are issued to your enemies. You don’t typically issue them to your friends when they ask you what you are planning to do.

        Quote  Reply

    180. mass,

      The difference being this was a one time outburst when Tyrion was at his lowest moment. Danerys has a pattern of behavior that includes violence, aggression, and utter ruthlessness. It’s not remotely the same thing.

        Quote  Reply

    181. Young Dragon:
      mass,

      The difference being this was a one time outburst when Tyrion was at his lowest moment. Danerys has a pattern of behavior that includes violence, aggression, and utter ruthlessness. It’s not remotely the same thing.

      To be fair, Tyrion did also kill Shae and Tywin. He also obliterated a ton of men with wildfire, not to mention blackmailing Lancel. Not that I blame him for any of it. Just pointing out that Tyrion had violence, aggression, and ruthlessness in his arsenal as well when he felt it necessary.

        Quote  Reply

    182. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      By the way, the episode of Elementary guest starring Ally Ioannides was Season 4 Ep. 7, “Miss Taken.”

      Thanks I may have to watch Dr. Who Season 9 episodes The Girl Who Died, The Woman Who Lived, Face the Raven and Hell Bent. I may watch those first after AFFC/ADWD is done as my reward!

      His Dark Materials is about to drop…. Dafne Keen has a similar look to Maisie (I think), but she doesn’t seem to have the same outgoing personality as Maisie in interviews. I will have to watch the HDM series. It looks pretty cool. But I’m going to go with Dr. Who and Ashildr (Me, or otherwise known as Maisie Williams) as my first TV binge after the books…

        Quote  Reply

    183. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      I’ll report back after I finish AFFC and Brienne’s chapter… Then it’s on to the Blind Girl chapter! and it’s all ADWD the rest of the way…
      Yes, I agree with your COTF comment…

        Quote  Reply

    184. kevin1989: Same here, I hope this helps. Somehow I have high hopes winds will be released sooner than later. And I hope lots of storylines stops there, so that dream is much easier for him to write. What makes winds so difficult now is that there are many and many storylines that need to come together.

      Yes, but I’m wondering too if he has trouble with inspiration. Sometimes, words just write themselves to the page. Other times, inhabiting Jupiter seems more possible. I think it’s a matter of being moved by the spirit as well :/

      Agree with you on the girl in grey! While I’m not sure what Jon will be doing or what state he’ll be in, I agree with you about timelines. Thanks for the link, I’m having fun reading it!

        Quote  Reply

    185. Tron79: Thanks I may have to watch Dr. Who Season 9 episodes The Girl Who Died, The Woman Who Lived, Face the Raven and Hell Bent.I may watch those first after AFFC/ADWD is done as my reward!

      His Dark Materials is about to drop….Dafne Keen has a similar look to Maisie (I think), but she doesn’t seem to have the same outgoing personality as Maisie in interviews.I will have to watch the HDM series. It looks pretty cool. But I’m going to go with Dr. Who and Ashildr (Me, or otherwise known as Maisie Williams) as my first TV binge after the books…

      Looking forward to HDM. It premieres Monday night. The first couple episodes of Watchmen have piqued my interest as well. Along with the final season of Silicon Valley and Catherine the Great miniseries, HBO has a good lineup.

        Quote  Reply

    186. Tron79,

      Thanks I may have to watch Dr. Who Season 9 episodes The Girl Who Died, The Woman Who Lived, Face the Raven and Hell Bent. I may watch those first after AFFC/ADWD is done as my reward!

      They’re sure worth a look!
      My personal, ASNAWP-weighted ratings:
      • “The Girl Who Died” B+
      • “The Woman Who Lived” B
      • “Face the Raven” C
      • “Hell Bent” A

      (BTW: Although MW isn’t in “Heaven Sent”, the episode preceding the season finale “Hell Bent”, you may want to watch it only for the sake of continuity. Better yet, maybe I’ll try to provide a brief spoiler-coded synopsis for you.)

        Quote  Reply

    187. House of Dragons. Title made me laugh, particularly since even GRRM is already using the verbal short-hand of just HOUSE. I immediately thought of a curmudgeonly Medieval Veterinarian in the early days of Kings Landing:

      “No, Brandon! It’s not Lupus!”

        Quote  Reply

    188. Joseph H Ackerman:
      House of Dragons.Title made me laugh, particularly since even GRRM is already using the verbal short-hand of just HOUSE.I immediately thought of a curmudgeonly Medieval Veterinarian in the early days of Kings Landing:

      “No, Brandon! It’s not Lupus!”

      Damn I would love such a show. It made me think of Qyburn in 8×01. She will die of the pox within a year.

        Quote  Reply

    189. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Thanks I may have to watch Dr. Who Season 9 episodes The Girl Who Died, The Woman Who Lived, Face the Raven and Hell Bent. I may watch those first after AFFC/ADWD is done as my reward!

      They’re sure worth a look!
      My personal, ASNAWP-weighted ratings:
      • “The Girl Who Died” B+
      • “The Woman Who Lived”B
      • “Face the Raven”C
      • “Hell Bent”A

      (BTW: Although MW isn’t in “Heaven Sent”, the episode preceding the season finale “Hell Bent”, you maywant to watch it only for the sake of continuity. Better yet, maybe I’ll try to provide a brief spoiler-coded synopsis for you.)

      Thanks! I did watch them all once, but it’s been a few years. I think I did watch Heaven Sent because originally I wasn’t sure which episodes Maisie was in, so I watched all of season 9. Yes eventually I did realize I could just Google it! But I did enjoy watching the season and then Maisie showed up in her mask! I look forward to seeing them again. And I’m sure I’ll be back to start GOT over again too as my watch begins waiting for WoW. I do feel guilty that my watch will be 8 years shorter than some out there.

        Quote  Reply

    190. Young Dragon,

      In case of Qarth, it is idle threat. She is weak and needs to show a sign of power.
      In other case which is probably her talk with tyrion in meeren, you have to admit that just half of sentence a character makes that she would burn cities, is not enough character development to make her someone who would kill people of fleabottom( even though I believe the whole conversation of tyrion and dany was a set up to mention that there is wildfire under sept and KL because they wanted to give that informatio, for next episode . She was always fierce and brutal to masters and those who were in power, sometimes enemy soldiers, but she never commited a crime against poor or children and powerless people, in general. She always had a revolutionalist mentality that made her blind about power balance. But as i said, she was never someone who would kill poor and powerless people. In all the seasons and whole story she only mentions 1 sentence about burning cities and you take that as a proper character developement or foreshadowing that would lead to such a big twist at the end?

        Quote  Reply

    191. kevin1989,

      I was trying to explain it to my cousin last week, and I failed miserably. It’s not complicated, but there are a lot of concepts to explain. Here is the trailer,

      You’ll notice a lot of animals about, in that world, the human soul is split into 2, half taking the form of an animal (called dæmons) kind of like Harry Potter patronus’, their form represents the persons personality, and they can speak. There is the whole thing with dust, and sin, and religion, but I’m not sure I could do it justice, just know that it is a very good story.

      Without giving anything away, the first book is about the disappearance of young children, and Lyra’s search for them. She of course finds out where they have gone and why, but I can’t say more than that without creating a flow chart lol

        Quote  Reply

    192. Jack Bauer 24: Looking forward to HDM. It premieres Monday night. The first couple episodes of Watchmen have piqued my interest as well. Along with the final season of Silicon Valley and Catherine the Great miniseries, HBO has a good lineup.

      Yeah me too. I was a bit obsessed following the trailers, reaction youtubers and comic con. But I will wait until after I finish my reading project before I jump into them. I may wait until the season is over and then watch them all, so I don’t have to wait each week for the next one…. I’ve never read Philip Pullman’s books (because I’m not a big reader usually), but I may need to check those out at some point. Lots of people love them. I watched a few people talk about the books on YouTube. I think the fan base is hoping this HDM series is closer to the books than the poorly received movie.

      And Old Bear Mormont is sitting large in the trailers!

        Quote  Reply

    193. Mr Derp,

      Adding on to your list:

      Show Tyrion was also totally willing to let slavers have slaves for half a decade more (I can’t remember if it was 5 or 7 yrs to be honest). Think of how many lives destroyed there alone just so we can diplomatically make a transition that never would have worked since Missandei knew the masters and she was right: they wanted the old regime back and would have never gave that up. Dany never listened to that weak-ass bullshit as insane as she turn out to be in the end and her coming back on Drogon was a mercy.

      Book Tyrion is even darker, raping that girl in the brothel, and knowing exactly what he’s doing, describing it in horrible detail, justifying himself when he knows it’s not justifiable.

      I’m going to go on a limb and say Martin may do something similar with Dany’s POV when she burns KL. It will be doozy if he succeeds.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Iul,

      Well, i don’t think you’re going to get any of these things. If you still believe The Winds of Winter is already written then you have a screw loose. And you’re not going to get Balerion either. GRRM mentioned reading Fire and Blood and his anthologies Rogues and Dangerous Women, these feature Rhaenyra Targaryen and her stepmother Alicent Hightower and Daemon Targaryen. So it’s most likely we’re getting the build up to the Dance of Dragons, the Dance itself, and it’s aftermath. That’s at least 7 seasons right there.

        Quote  Reply

    195. kevin1989,

      See, I cannot see a parallel there Kevin simply because I don’t know if I believe Stannis is considering burning Shireen at all in the books.

      I know there’s the portion of the fandom that considers that as a “definitely happening” thing because Benioff and Weiss said her death came straight form Martin, but I just don’t see it. Not because I believe Stannis won’t consider it under any circumstances even if his told that his life’s goal depends on it. But because logistically it makes no sense. What’s he gonna do stuck in that snow? Don’t tell me, he’s going to send a raven to the wall and tell Mel: burn Shireen so I can get unstuck and so I can attack Winterfell? All that Red God burning religious crap doesn’t seem to be something of his. I always saw it as Mel whispering in his ear. Think Grima Wormtongue whispering in Theoden’s ear type. Without her close, those zealous ideas seem to be gone. So I’ll wait and see where that takes me.

      Jenny,

      That’s why I think it’s an interesting topic! You see the downside of having those vids. Do you see the advantage? Is it worth it? Sometimes yes and maybe sometimes no.

        Quote  Reply

    196. kevin1989,

      Mate, I am not really sure if that discussion can be fruitful.

      Someone already stated that HE/SHE knows BETTER than you do for sure – like, for no reason. I see we agree at lots of points when it comes to story-building structures, character developments, reasons for things to happen and so on…

      The thing is, I have a good feeling that people on that site are truly biased when it comes to opposing opinions, and the throw stuff like: “toxic fanbase” whenever they hear a word of criticism. Without a doubt, there was a huge backlash at D&D’s work, huge part of comments were simply offensive and unsubstantial. Nevertheless, it became kind of a meme on that forum, that people automatically call think you are “dumb” when you disagree. And as there’s much to disagree on when it comes to the last season, you are almost an “idiot” to have own opinion.

      There’s so many TV series in the world so that you can compare GoT to. I once believed GoT (all seasons) were the best series of my life, and as far as it was a great experience, now I know there are tons of better series both aesthetically and storywise.

      I see really hard fans with a huge confirmation bias who won’t change their mind even if you lay out any absolutely basic flaws when it comes to story writing. And even if you do so, they will most definitely say something like: “well, if you are such a genius, why won’t you write your own script” 😀

      I found it quite pointless to discuss it there with people. You can argue about Arya killing the Night King. You can argue about Bran becoming the king. But it’s almost a dillusion to call Jon’s story arc in the last 2 seasons good.

      People told you that the result of Jon getting to know his own parentage was The Last War. I mean, how deeply fallacious one’s thoughts have to be, to come up with such conclusion, because while it might be true, the entire story and character development between the huge reveal of Jon’s legacy and the war is totally missing. I got bored with these discussions. It reminds me a discussion about politics with someone who have absolutely no clue what the right- and left- wing are, or have little to no understanding of some basic economics, like the concepts of captialism and socialism.

      I get frustrated to hard when I have to read some people’s thoughts and “deep-analysis” of season 8. It was simply wrong and has nothing to do with my own expectations. I only expected this season to be consistent, and it hardly was. “The Deuce” of David Simon – well, I had much different expectations, yet, I cried a lot in a positive sense. You see – sometimes “subverted expectations” can go the right way 🙂

      I wish you a lot of patience in the battles to come on that forum! 😀
      Peace.

        Quote  Reply

    197. mau,

      When has Dany ever said her goal is to rule the world? Answer- the series finale. If that’s not bad writing I don’t know what is. There’s a reason why the last season and her heel turn in particular had an overwhelmingly negative reaction. It made no sense.

        Quote  Reply

    198. Young Dragon,

      Yeah despicable actions against slavers who profit from the forced physical and sexual labor of men, women and children. What a monster. D&D showed their hand when they compared the slavers and the Khals to Jews and other minorities in Nazi Germany, in Tyrion’s riff of the “First They Came” poem by Martin Niemoller. “First she killed the slavers and we cheered her for it”. LMAO. What a mess.

        Quote  Reply

    199. Young Dragon,

      Who are these innocents you’re talking about slavers? And the Khals who threatened to rape her to death? Who the innocent civilians that she indiscriminately murdered before S8 E5?

        Quote  Reply

    200. Wolfish,

      In order to justify Dany’s turn to genocidal maniac you have to whitewash her enemies in the east. Which is why the people justifying Dany’s turn call the slavers innocent civilians, innocent nobles, everything but slavers-who literally owned other human beings and profited from their forced labor. Once you whitewash them as innocent dudes just living their lives until the mean dragon lady came along setting their property free and turning their whole civilization upside down; does the so called “foreshadowing” of her evilness make sense.

        Quote  Reply

    201. Jack Bauer 24,

      Tron79,

      I’m looking forward to HDM too! (I loved the books and despite the poor reception for the 2007 film, I loved Nicole Kidman as Mrs Coulter. I don’t know if anyone can beat her Mrs Coulter but I’ll looking forward to seeing the books come to life!)

        Quote  Reply

    202. The real villains were Bran and Sam, Bran destroyed Jon’s chance for happiness because he saw an opportunity to take the throne by manipulating events to bring Dany down. Sam wanted Dany dead because she killed his bro and dad, and really pushed Jon in that direction. The Sam from seasons 1-6 would never do that, therefore his out of character change was written so Bran would have a pawn.
      OT: Former President Obama, a big GoT fan, intellectually and succinctly body slammed the Woke counter culture on their heads.

        Quote  Reply

    203. Tyjon,

      That’s so sad for Jon. I never got Sansa either with her asking for an independent north. If Jon hadn’t known about his parentage, he would have married Dany. Jon could have kept on ruling the north while Dany took care of the rest. Sansa could have been warden while Jon was in Kings Landing with Dany. If they just had talked about it together, this would have been a good solution for everyone.

        Quote  Reply

    204. Adrianacandle,

      Can you believe that they removed religion from the movie though? Given the ending? The mind boggles, they can’t have planned to make the trilogy, it would be impossible.

      There are literal angels for goodness sake!

        Quote  Reply

    205. Jenny,

      That’s a really good explanation. Way better than how I could have explained it! It was a good story. They have a second trilogy of books in the works, I’m about to start book 2 of that. I had no idea it was airing in two days though.

        Quote  Reply

    206. Tyjon,

      The real villains were Bran and Sam…”
      —-

      Yes. Yes, they were. For their truly wretched dialogue in S8e2:

      (S8e2: Bran & Sam during pre-battle council, about the reason Night King will target Bran)

      ***
      Sam: “Why? What does he want?”

      Bran: “An endless night. He wants to erase this world, and I am its memory.”

      Sam: “That’s what death is, isn’t it? Forgetting. Being forgotten. If we forget where we’ve been and what we’ve done, we’re not men anymore. Just animals. Your memories don’t come from books. Your stories aren’t just stories. If I wanted to erase the world of men, I’d start with you.”

      TB: “Seriously? Memories and animals? Forgetting and being forgotten? Huh?”
      TB (later): “So the big reveal is that the Night King wants to… erase a hard drive?”

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    207. kevin1989,

      Hm, no, I’m not sure how it could go with the timelines. I don’t get many of your arguments tbh. Why would she need to intersect with LSH? LSH is in the Riverlands, Sansa is going to go North, not South. I suspect that Sansa will arrive at the Wall after Jon’s resurrection. I expect that Jon will spent at least a chapter in Ghost (I think Martin would love to write something like that, imagine if there’s a chapter titled “Ghost”, or if there’s a chapter called “Jon” and it’s like Sixskin’s chapter, lol). Then we’d probably also get a chapter of Melisandre, because we’d need to see her convincing Shireen’s mother that she needs to deliver Shireen. And then perhaps another chapter of Jon, where he resurrects. That’s three chapters already.
      There’s already two candidates for the girl in grey. One is f!Arya. She’s coming from the southwest. Alys arrives first, from the south east of CB. The authentic girl in grey, however, shall arrive from the long lake, which almost a straight line South-North. It’s in Melisandre’s vision and she discusses it with Mance.
      I don’t know why should one insist that Sansa shall not go to Castle Black. Martin himself has stated that she won’t spend many chapters at the Eyrie, which is why they suppressed her Eyrie arc at the show, and her released Alayne chapter shows that she’s heading for some major trouble. My guess is that she’ll escape soon and probably Mya Stone will help her, but she won’t escort her to CB. I don’t see her meeting with Brienne either; that was probably show invention only. For Sansa to be at CB soon (perhaps a month after Jon’s resurrection?) she needs to go north, to White Harbor. Perhaps she’ll take a boat? I don’t know. Also, Melisandre’s vision makes it clear that the girl is hiding, avoiding central roads, has the Long Lake to her west, so why should she try to invent a fake identity? And why would that be Arya? I don’t get it.
      Sansa is destined to be the princess in the tower who comes down from it all by herself (and thus overturns the trope). In this context I am also not sure what the role of the Vale in taking back WF will be. Perhaps it’ll be as in the show: LF, if Sansa has abandoned him, will want to be in on the game (if he’s alive at all). But it seems that if Stannis has collected the mountain clans, and has support of the Umbers and Karstarks (via Jon and Alys-Sigorn), count some of the Freefolk in because Jon died for them, then the Boltons are doomed and Jon doesn’t really need the Vale. Jon will take WF for Sansa (established with his line “WF belongs to my sister Sansa”).

        Quote  Reply

    208. Chilli,

      Yes, yes!
      And then they’d live happily ever after with magic Targ-incest baby and the mother of dragons would be happy to mother little humans too while all her enemies were obliterated from the face of the earth. The just always win!

        Quote  Reply

    209. Tyjon,

      ”OT: Former President Obama, a big GoT fan, intellectually and succinctly body slammed the Woke counter culture on their heads.”

      Ackkkk! You didn’t include a trigger warning ⚠️ before invading my safe space! You didn’t ask for permission before using the plural pronoun “their.” You’ve conflated body slamming with body shaming! That’s a false equivalence! Co-opting President Obama and GoT is cultural appropriation! Claiming he “body slammed” the counterculture “on their heads” mixes the wrong metaphors with the wrong antecedent pronoun!

      I’m outraged! So are the three Russian troll farm bots that’ll amplify this x 1,000,000 on Facebook!

      🛎 Shame! 🛎 Shame! 🛎 Shame!

      Just wait until my three fellow cancel culture warriors on Twitter get wind of this! You will rue the day you…

      Hold on. … (Gotta go. Mom just yelled down to shut off my %#*#ing computer and get my %#*ing ass upstairs and eat my %#*ing breakfast before it gets cold or my father will whip my behind with a knotted plowline when he gets home.)

      – End screed –

        Quote  Reply

    210. Efi:
      Chilli,

      Yes, yes!
      And then they’d live happily ever after with magic Targ-incest baby and the mother of dragons would be happy to mother little humans too while all her enemies were obliterated from the face of the earth. The just always win!

      Would the Mother of Dragons also raise Cersei’s incest bastard baby along with her own Targ incest baby until they’re both old enough to square off with Little Sam in Incest Bastard Baby Bowl in 3D?

      While we’re at it, may as well have Dany be foster mother to Baby Ned Snow aka Eddard Baratheon, dropped off on Dany’s doorstep eight months after Arya starts suffering morning sickness while out at sea.

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    211. Dee Stark:
      this is soooooooo off topic, but has anyone seen Watchmen? is it any good?

      I kind of wanted to know that too.

      Although I admit I’m not familiar with the source material/graphic novels, unlike many critics, I liked the 2009 movie. It was… different.

      As for the new HBO Watchmen series, I am reluctant to commit to another series unless I’m sure it won’t start out with a bang but then fizzle out in S2 (e.g., NBC’s The Blacklist), or get cancelled abruptly after one season (e.g., HBO’s “Vinyl”, which I never bothered watching once I learned HBO had announced its renewal for a second season, but then soon after, pulled the plug on it.)

      Having said that, I’m curious about the new Watchmen series. It’s got Jeremy Irons, Regina King, Don Johnson, Louis Gossett, Jr., and Frances Fisher, among other big names.

      What have you heard?

        Quote  Reply

    212. Efi,

      To be clear I never expected it to end this way because it’s GOT and that kind of ending would be way too Disney. It’s just the frustration that if people would talk at the right time and shut up at the right time, things would have been totally different/better. And that’s just words, not real action/fighting. I guess that’s also the same in real life. The right words at the right time can change so much.

        Quote  Reply

    213. Young Dragon,

      Perhaps if anything is missing from the show it’s her order to the Unsullied to kill all male population over 12 years old that wears a tokar. That was clearly turning against civilians, as a tokar is a piece of clothing worn by the well-off, not just by slavers.

      Also, people tend to understand by “slavers” those who own slaves, while they’re not. It’s one thing to own slaves because you live in a system that endorses slavery, and another to actually trade in slaves and thus be a slaver. But the people wearing tokars could very well be merchants trading in spice.

      [if anyone doubts me on this they can check a Lexikon: Glosbe on line has it “Slaver: slave trader”]

      Claiming that she hasn’t done anything bad before burning KL focuses on “turning against innocent civilians” which in the books, she already has done it.

      But generally I agree with you. I didn’t like Dany from day 1 (narratively-wise it’s too easy; starting at her lowest, blonde, beautiful, wins the affections of powerful man, hatches dragons eggs, boring narrative).

      I also think they should have pressed Jon’s claim further in the show. It should have been political, not just personal (pain of loss). People set on getting power for themselves don’t go mad for losing a lover, or a friend, or a dragon-baby; power is far more important to them, and they should have made it very clear in Dany’s case. It would have been clearer, I think, if they made her realize somehow that she’s lost everything in her quest for power, and now she’s about to lose that power she was seeking too.
      As it is, the show barely touches upon that. (if at all – personally, I didn’t see it)

      (I just saw Dany going crazy for no real reason apart from the loss of her friend, her dragons, Jon and that’s hardly satisfying, it’s a very simplistic narrative structure, an effortless structure –heaven forbid that they make Jon Snow look bad, who would they tease then about the northern “stupidity” aka simplicity/honesty, or for his height? -end of parenthetical rant)

        Quote  Reply

    214. Efi,

      It’s about a two-week ride from Winterfell to Castle Black. I think it’ll take far, far longer than a month for Sansa to somehow make it to Castle Black (especially if via unconvential means and Sansa will need help, she doesn’t have the skills to survive the land on her own), if she were to go there.

      From the reddit thread Kevin included above, it looks like some are speculating it might be the real Arya because Melisandre may be misinterpreting parts of the vision and may truly be seeing Arya somewhere else (or maybe sometime in the future?) — but this girl may not truly be fleeing from an unwanted marriage or riding to Castle Black: neither of those things are certainties (perhaps this might very well be the case but it’s Melisandre’s interpretation right now). The only things that have been shown is that the girl is “grey as ash”, is running (apparently going in a western direction), and Melisandre saw her in an environment that included still, deep water with a thin coat of ice. What Melisandre also saw included hills, fields, trees, a deer, and stones, off the main road:

      “If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. Did your fires show you where to find this girl?”

      “I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever.”

      “Long Lake. What else did you see around this girl?”

      “Hills. Fields. Trees. A deer, once. Stones. She is staying well away from villages. When she can she rides along the bed of little streams, to throw hunters off her trail.”

      He frowned. “That will make it difficult. She was coming north, you said. Was the lake to her east or to her west?”

      Melisandre closed her eyes, remembering. “West.”

      “She is not coming up the kingsroad, then. Clever girl. There are fewer watchers on the other side, and more cover. And some hidey-holes I have used myself from time—”

      And:

      The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

      But I don’t think the timeline would allow for it to be Sansa.

      I’m also not sure Jon would be fighting to regain Winterfell specifically for Sansa. I think that’s more about outsing Ramsay Bolton — if Jon does march on Winterfell at all. I think that if Jon were to win Winterfell, he would pass over Winterfell to Sansa or whatever Stark shows up. Yet, when he told Stannis that Winterfell belongs to Sansa — which (as far as Jon knows) is true — Jon was again turning Stannis’s offer down, reminding him that there was still a trueborn Stark around.

      I find it hard to say where either Jon and Sansa’s stories are going at this point. I think Winterfell is Sansa’s destiny but I think she’ll be heading there sooner rather than later but I don’t know if it’ll be the way the show had done it since Sansa is so much farther away from Castle Black in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    215. Chilli,

      I understood your meaning and I agree with it 🙂 Not only with Jon and Dany, but with other characters as well. Sometimes just learning one bit of info and the choices made as a result lead to so much tragedy and disaster.

      And I agree, this totally happens in real life as well and can be the source of many regrets.

        Quote  Reply

    216. Efi,

      Guilty as charged. 😬

      As you may remember, I was staunchly Anti-Baby Drama from the moment the Jon and Daenerys stateroom hook-up spawned all of the Targ baby speculation. I was praying GoT would not conclude by resorting to a cheesy soap opera twist involving The Zygote That Was Promised.

      I also winced at every one of Tyrion’s repetitive “Your Baby, Your Baby” lines, referring to Cersei’s alleged baby (not to mention apparently oblivious Euron vowing to impregnate Cersei…who was already pregnant with Jaime’s child?)

      In retrospect, I kind of wish the show had excised that scene of Jon questioning Dany’s insistence that she was infertile, along with all of the subplot involving Cersei’s baby-not baby. Both of those storyline detours led to dead ends.

      #NoBabyDrama
      🚫👶🏻

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    217. Chilli,

      True, but you have to think in terms of narrative purpose and themes posed and character development throughout ASOIAF on which GoT depends. There’s the Watsonian reasons, meaning what a character does in-universe that’s in character for him/her, and the Doylist reasons, meaning what the author intends to do with that character and what he wants to show to the readers/audience.

      If incest baby fit Martin’s goals, meaning if he thought that was a good solution, he’d do it (Doylist). If incest fit Jon Snow’s character development, he’d do it (Watsonian). If Martin wants to show that Ned’s decapitation, Robb’s rebellion and his subsequent murder, Jon’s being designated successor of Robb mean nothing for the entire story, then the North won’t be independent in the end. (Doylist again).

      It’s not that easy (and tbh it wouldn’t make an interesting narrative/show).

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    218. Efi,

      Re: The debate over whether Dany’s history adequately foreshadowed her eventual massacre of KL civilians.

      Allow me to make a completely unsubstantiated suggestion: In some ways, Emilia Clarke’s joyful, sunny personality made it easy to overlook the dark side of her character, and to dismiss the disproportionate cruelty of some of her character’s actions throughout S1-S7.

      I for one had a hard time separating the goofy, witty, and bubbly Emilia from the stern, imperious Daenerys.

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    219. Ten Bears,

      If you ever want a pretty concise look at some of Dany’s book arc without having to read all five books (namely, this looks at her ADWD arc — Dany’s time in Meereen and her struggle with rulership — and her characterization), I’d recommend reading the (GRRM approved(!) as reported by Elio Garcia) Meereenese Knot essays. They do go over her good traits, her bad traits, her mistakes, her shortcomings, her character development, and this author did predict a dark turn for Dany (‘A Darker Daenerys’).

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    220. Mass,

      Yes, Quarth was an idle threat, but that was about ability, not desire.

      Her conversation with Tyrion shows what she is truly capable of. What I find to be odd is no one called that bad writing. No one said it was out of character for Danerys to be threatening to slaughter thousands of civilians. No one seemed to bat an eye, because no one was shocked. Maybe people took solace in the fact she didn’t go through with it without really thinking about what this means for the character. Her threatening to burn down cities in past seasons means that burning down King’s Landing did not, in fact, “come out of nowhere,” as several people suggested. It was foreshadowed.

      Yes, she did kill powerless people. The masters of Mereen were defeated, they were completely at Dany’s mercy, and she crucified them anyway. She fed a man to her dragons for no reason. She burned the defeated Tarlys alive.

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    221. Soman85,

      Yes, several of the slavers were innocent of the crimes she was accusing them of. And you seem to be forgetting how she threatened to massacre thousands of innocent people when she was getting ready to burn Yunkai and Astapor to the ground.

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    222. kevin1989,

      Are you honestly suggesting we can’t know who a character really is until after the books are finished? That has to be the most nonsensical thing I’ve ever heard. And you are vastly overestimating the fandom if you think they are all going to arrive at the same exact consensus regarding a character.

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    223. Mr Derp,

      Well, the use of wildfire was an act of war/survival. When I listed Dany’s questionable behavior, I left out her using dragons in combat. I was providing examples of unnecessary violence. Fair enough about your other examples, but they pale in comparison to the acts of violence Danerys has committed, imo.

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    224. Efi: Also, people tend to understand by “slavers” those who own slaves, while they’re not.

      You mean in American English. Slavers definitely also means owner of slaves.

        Quote  Reply

    225. Young Dragon,

      They were slavers. They weren’t innocent. How do you think they kept their slaves in line? How do you think they extracted physical and sexual labor from other human beings for free? Violence of the worst kind, that’s how. Our own history shows what people have to do to keep other human beings in bondage. And it is the grossest, most horrific kind of violence imaginable.

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    226. soman85,

      Like I said, they were innocent of the crimes she was accusing them of. Danerys claims to be better, and yet she repaid violence with violence, which should have told you that she wasn’t the savior of this story. Their crimes do not excuse her own.

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    227. Young Dragon,

      The problem with starting these comparisons is that in the end one realizes that no character that may want to take the mantle of leadership under the current political systems of Westeros/ Planetos is actually innocent of crimes. And I don’t mean judges and trials, I mean they have blood on their hands of some sort.

      To suddenly dump on Dany for things she did that were just in a situation, even if you think that foreshadowed that she will at some point use that same power for evil is not fair. Bad people do good things and good people do bad things. It’s not all black and all white. And they all seem to have some cruel and unstable streak. Or they would not be: assassin, ruler of the North, advisor or hand of the Queen etc.

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    228. Young Dragon,

      Thank God you weren’t around during the lead up to the civil war. I’m sure in your moral thinking, a war to end slavery is morally equivalent to slavery itself. So lets just live and live with people who torture, entrap, buy and sell human beings.

      I never said Dany’s methods weren’t brutal, but she doesn’t exist in a vacuum. So were Jon’s (he beheaded Slynt for disobeying him), Sansa who fed dogs to Ramsay, Stannis, the Lannisters, what Rob’s men did in the River lands. It’s a brutal, brutal world. And by your logic they’re all criminals. But only Dany haters seem to want to whitewash the worst of them-slavers- in order to justify an unjustifiable heel turn in the last minute. Murdering slavers and dismantling the institution of slavery is not the moral equivalent, or a steeping stone to razing Kings Landing. And that’s where the S8 E5 defenders don’t make any sense.

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    229. Jenny,

      Thanks for sharing. I watch the trailer but somehow it doesn’t get my attention. I think I will wait till the whole first season is out and wait how people rate it. Same with witchers, that show somehow doesn’t get my attention.

      But if it’s good I will at least start it for Ruth Wilson. One of my favorite actress out there.

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    230. TormundsWoman,

      No I don’t believe that Stannis will order the burning of Shireen. I think Mel who received the pink Letter that Stannis is death (Which he is not, he faked his death is my assumption, he needs to fight Dany). Mel will burn shireen for her kings blood to resurrect Stannis (who is in her mind Azor Ahai Reborn). And I think at that moment Jon will wake up from his death.

      And I think when Mel comes to Winterfell she founds out Stannis was never death, Jon will found out he came back alive because Shireen died. And Stannis will be pissed that Mel burned his daughter. And it will push Stannis towards the old gods.

      So no I don’t think Stannis will order the burning of his daughter. I think Mel acts on her own here.

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    231. TormundsWoman,

      Yes, each character has done terrible things, but they are not all equal. Danerys has committed some of the most heinous crimes in the city, and would have done worse before Episode 5 if her advisers didn’t talk her down.

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    232. soman85,

      The Civil War didn’t end with the execution of every slaver, so you’re example works against you. I love how you’re trying to make it out that I sympathize with the slavers when that is clearly not the case. As I said, and I believe this is the third time I’m saying it, the slavers’ crimes do not excuse Dany’s. Crucifying slavers who were innocent of the crime she was punishing them for is not the action of a savior or a good leader. What she did shows what she does to her enemies, which the people of King’s Landing had become. Besides, she had threatened to slaughter thousands of innocent people before, so it wasn’t a surprise when she actually did it. All the signs were there, it’s not my fault you didn’t see it.

      Also, I don’t hate Danerys. She’s one of my favorite characters. I’m just not blind to who she is. In fact, that’s what makes her so interesting. I don’t know why you want to turn a complex character with faults into a whitewashed hero.

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    233. Adam,

      Thanks and you’re right. Luckily for me I like discussing things.

      Efi,

      I don’t think that Sansa will go north to be honest in the books. In the show she was north for one reason: She was merged by Jeyne Poole. And there’s no way she can go north in time. If she go north, Jon is already in Winterfell. Or else Jon will stay dead for almost whole of Winds. Which I doubt.
      Sansa needs to stay south because else south only consist of Aegon in dreams which doesn’t make sense.
      Why she will intersect with LSH at least what I think is, that LSH is going after the people who wronged her family. That also mean Littlefinger. In Clash she even blame LF for the dead of Ned, and she knew he was playing a game with the dagger. She finally found out he lied about Tyrion having it. And then LSH get the announcement that LF niece is going to get married with the heir of the Vale, which belonged to her sister.
      Another part is that for Sansa to get to the wall. She needs to get through the twins. Which are property of the Frey’s. (And maybe later LSH and if she meets LSH there it means she meets her mother which means she will be protected, or do we think LSH wants her daughter death?), and if the frey’s are there, she is not getting through.
      Then she needs to travel from the neck to the wall. Which also doesn’t make sense.
      But how will Sansa get to the wall with Jon’s resurrection? I mean with all her storyline going through and we know how martin writes, before she even leave the Vale we are at least 4 5 chapter further. Storywise it will be a mess is Sansa will go north, and also that means the whole LF storyline falls flat like in the show.
      I agree we will probably get a chapter as Jon in Ghost, and one with Mel with the burning of Shireen. (Probably as a flashback in her chapter)

      Yes but when she discussed it with Mance, she clearly thinks Jeyne Poole is Arya. Mance is send to Winterfell for a reason, to get Arya back. And she was wrong before with her visions.
      And in the Theon winds chapter, Jeyne Poole is send north to the wall with a horse, and a Grey cloak. And it will be strange if 2 girls in Grey will arrive at Castle Black.

      I think it’s more reasonable that after Mel burned Shireen, Jon is resurrected. The Girl in Grey arrives which she suspects is Arya. But Jon tells her she is wrong, that’s not Arya that’s Jeyne Poole. That will push Mel in doubt. Then she gets a letter from Stannis that Stannis captured Winterfell. In which her faith is once reawaken.

      I think that Sansa will indeed move out of the Vale very soon. The girl is interpreted by Mel as Arya. That means the girl is grey has the fake identity of Arya (or is Arya herself) As you state that doesn’t make sense for Sansa to take on Arya’s identity, because that won’t give her safe passage in fact it would get her captured. So it doesn’t make sense for her to be the girl in Grey. But maybe she will go north but I think she will go north once Stannis got Winterfell. And maybe you’re right and it’s Sansa, but I doubt it somehow. Personally I think her story will go south not North. Towards Aegon.

      And I personally think Stannis will take back Winterfel not jon like in the show. Jon got a lot of action that wasn’t in the books, like 4×05 and 5×08. We already know Dany will battle Stannis as her visions tell her.

      But what’s the whole point of LF in the books if his story will not come to a logical ending? Doesn’t that story need to end first before she can go north? Or is LF storyline also meant to have an anti-climatic ending like the show?

      But I wonder why you have the feeling like something bad will happen with Sansa in winds. When I read the winds chapter, I felt her story was moving to “She can manipulate men now”. That was my feeling that she could manipulate Harry there. Or did I miss something? He came over as a dick first, but not a Joffrey or Ramsay.

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    234. Efi,

      I can’t seem to find that Martin states that Sansa will leave the vale soon?
      And to think of it, if Sansa indeed escapes. Which I doubt, I think she will get harry the heir on her side, or Robin, she already has connection with Myranda. I think she will unmask LF in winds. And I think her road will cross with the gravedigger in winds. So maybe he will take her north. Thanks for that idea. But still I think her going north will happen after recapture WF and she will probably arrive there.

      Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      Are you honestly suggesting we can’t know who a character really is until after the books are finished? That has to be the most nonsensical thing I’ve ever heard. And you are vastly overestimating the fandom if you think they are all going to arrive at the same exact consensus regarding a character.

      You seem to once again twist my words to make an argument for your opinion.

      No that’s not what I stated. Let me tell it much simpler: Motivation of a character > Action of a character > how we perceive this action.

      That later: How we perceive this action. Is up to debate, nobody has the same view on things. That should not be dictated by the writers, that’s up to us. Some can even state they like who Joffrey is, doesn’t mean I condone that opinion but if that’s their view. This is where you are debating about: How people saw Dany as good or evil, and that’s where the books are not consistent because we don’t know if Stannis or Dany or Tyrion are good there. That will never be known, like it’s never know for not a single character in a single book, because good and evil is a view that people have. If a clear view can be given for such things, we would only have one political party in the world, that show what’s good. We all see things differently.
      What I’m talking about is that that first part, motivation should always be known to the viewer. Why does a character do the action they do. That motivation doesn’t need to be know till the end of the story, I give a couple of examples. We know why Walder killed everyone in the RW, We know why Cat killed his wife. We know why Arya killed her victims. We don’t know why Dany turned the way she turned. Her motivation is wonky and “choose your motivation yourself fans”

      As for motivation, yes a later book is sometimes needed for it, or sometimes even a whole Saga. For instance: Varys or LF. We see their action that they do. But we don’t know their motivation for it. That’s still up in the air. And that will be known to us in book 6 or 7. That’s the mystery. But good writing make sure that that motivation is known before the last word is read in the whole saga. (Another one if Snape from Harry Potter. We only found out in the last book why all his actions happened in the saga. That was not bad writing or was it, to let us wait? Or did Rowling need to bring that motivation directly in the first book?) Same with tyrion, he has a plan up his sleeve, and we need to wait till winds for that motivation to be told to us. That’s not bad writing, that’s they mystery. But the motivation needs to be told in at least winds or dream, or else the writing of Martin is in fact bad, and at fault here.

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    235. Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      Are you honestly suggesting we can’t know who a character really is until after the books are finished? That has to be the most nonsensical thing I’ve ever heard. And you are vastly overestimating the fandom if you think they are all going to arrive at the same exact consensus regarding a character.

      So in this case, you knew from episode 1×01 or book 1 that Jaime was a good guy and not the baddie when he pushed Bran out of the window?
      Or that Snape was the hero in the first book/movie?

      See how ridiculous that statement was that you made.

      And that last part, you seem to once again not focus on the thing that I’m talking about. Motivation not judging a character. But for me this discussion is over. It seems that you just ignore what I write, and just interpreted what I write wrong on purpose. I never stated that everyone needs to interpreted a character the same, only that the motivation of the characters needs to be known to us.

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    236. kevin1989,

      Oh, I’ll start with the last one first, but first before first: what’s the deal with Sansa and F!Aegon? Why do you believe they’re meant to meet?

      So the story is that Sansa learns to manipulate men, but she doesn’t know men that well yet, even though she knows they all want to [email protected]$%#@ her, she hasn’t yet seen them attack her (apart from the singer), because they respect her for being Ned Stark’s daughter. Being in the Vale as Alayne Stone means that she lost the protection of the Stark name and the respect it commanded.
      So there’s two ways the story with Harry might unfold: 1) Harry does sth stupid to please her and he dies, in which case LF will be very annoyed, and as a result he might actually try to rape her himself, or 2) Harry doesn’t die but does this stupid thing to prove himself and as a result he loses his position in the guards of Robin (in which case also LF’s plans go awry), and he attacks her himself; Sansa might kill him as a result, or if she doesn’t it’ll be the end of playing games for her and she’ll escape.

      [sidenote: I don’t understand why you see Myranda as a friend, Kevin. You don’t know women, lol. Myranda has thoughts in the back of her mind that she lets slip; i.e. she wants Harry for herself, and sees Sansa in very antagonistic terms. Mya on the other hand is much more honest, not hiding anything, doesn’t pretend that she’s something she’s not. It’s not by chance they named Ramsay’s mistress Myranda in the show]

      Already in the books LF is more forward with her, and Harry’s story, having had two bastards already (as he confesses himself) paints him in bleak colors. Meaning, he’s into seducing or raping women and then his rich family clears up his mess. And it’s established in that same chapter that he looks down on her because she is a bastard so there’s no chance he’ll respect her.
      I know you’ve said that you like this chapter. I don’t like it at all. In terms of foreshadowing, it says that too many bad things are going to happen with Sansa. Sansa is in a bubble right now. As you said, she’s relaxed, but around her the games are very dangerous, and she plays too with men’s desires and that’s not good.

      It all gave me a very unpleasant feeling in the stomach reading that chapter.
      The rest in another post.

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    237. TormundsWoman,

      Just because I am not native English, here’s what my Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary says:
      Slaver: 1) a person who bought and sold slaves. 2) a ship that was used in the past for carrying slaves.

      Also, OALD is very precise when it comes to American English and american words are minutely indicated as such along with their meaning. “Slaver” not an american word.

      If current use of the language attributes to the word the meaning “owner of slaves” it’s only by misuse and it’s wrong. In all my reading as a historian (more than 20 years now) I’ve never seen the word used like that in any text.

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    238. Ten Bears,

      Yes, I think it did work that way, I think I’ve already pointed that out in an earlier post.

      In retrospect I do believe (and that is a mean comment on my part) that D&D, when they took up the green light by Martin/HBO to go forward with GoT, really hadn’t understood that Daenerys is the ultimate antagonist. So they cast Emilia because she’s a ray of sunshine and appeals to the audience’s best instincts (what a lovely girl, how much she’s suffered, oh, no, she doesn’t mean any of those threats etc). ADWD was on shelves only in 2011 and there it’s clear that her “peace experiment” in Meerreen fails, but casting had happened (and I think season 1?) long before that.

      I think they must have had another thing coming for them when Martin revealed to them the final ending. If, for them, “one of the 3 oh!shit moments” was Dany’s burning of KL, then they really hadn’t given ASOIAF too much thought. I’ve seen it coming already in season 2 (I was uncomfortable with her already in season 1), and Daenerys’ going down was one of the reasons I stuck around watching it.
      If, on the other hand, Daenerys hadn’t done that, had been the true hero (potentially with a magic Targcest baby with or without the fantastic boyfriend) I’d be veeeeery disappointed. What a boring, boring narrative that would be! So, the blond girl-hero with the dragons gets the boy, the throne and baby, what else is new? Why would that differ from tons of other movies/shows/books?

      So, yes, Emilia’s sweetness undoubtedly contributed to this mixed feeling or the complete discarding of her cruel side by the audience. To their defence, however, Young Dragon is also right. She’s done many shitty things throughout the show. And truly they didn’t have to show the massacre of civilians to give the message “don’t be at ease with her” to make her look bad.
      It’s just that having the nameless villains in Essos [portrayed in a racist manner, dark skin, exotic cultures etc] facilitated people to make excuses for her. Of course, it’s different when it’s the nameless “slavers” and a completely other thing when it’s Jon, Jamie, Sansa, isn’t it? It’s different when it’s Yunkai and Astapor and Meereen and a whole different thing when it’s Winterfell, the Reach, or Kings Landing.

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    239. Adrianacandle,

      I agree with everything here.

      The time-lines are beyond my reach. One has also to factor in that outside the main roads it would take longer to make the journey. But if she leaves the Vale in the chapter after her released WoW chapter she’d be there in a month or so (maybe even less if she bypasses the swamps and goes by boat to WH). In any case I don’t think that Sansa will be at CB immediately after Jon is resurrected, I think she’ll arrive later, as in several days later.
      But in anycase Sansa will have to be there for the taking of WF. “For Sansa” is rather reaching on my part, more or less joking, but the truth is that any of the girls arriving would give him a motivation.
      But I do think Sansa will make it, and I do think she’ll be alone. The vision didn’t say anything about her being escorted. I don’t remember if Alys arrives alone? F!Arya certainly won’t be alone.
      I do think that Ramsay’s Jon’s fight though. Not only because of the pink letter, but because Jon is thinking about it and desperately wants to take action but so far his vows to the NW are holding him back. His murder will give him an excuse to leave, as in, “I fulfilled my vow”.

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    240. Mr Derp,

      Of course. Very few do (most of them derive from existing words and are not new), and others may have a different meaning in AmE that is indicated in Oxford Learners.

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    241. Efi,

      In any case I don’t think that Sansa will be at CB immediately after Jon is resurrected, I think she’ll arrive later, as in several days later.

      I really think it’d take far longer than that. The ride to Castle Black from Winterfell alone is about 1050 km. Meanwhile, the Eyrie is not simply double the distance of that, it’s way way farther than that. Plus, the other issues Kevin mentioned.

      Even with a boat, Sansa still needs to get from the Vale to Gulltown, and then from Gulltown to White Harbour, which is quite a ways, and she needs to make it from White Harbour to Castle Black, which is nearly double the distance between Winterfell and Castle Black.

      But in anycase Sansa will have to be there for the taking of WF.

      It may not go that way. Jon may not take Winterfell, he might be dealing with stuff in the North or other stuff (I can imagine there will be chaos after his assassination, perhaps the breaking of the peace between the Watch, the wildlings, and the queen’s men). Sansa may not come to Castle Black and may either arrive after Winterfell is taken by somebody else or she may take Winterfell herself with help. She still needs a way to get to Winterfell and that’s going to take a lot of time.

      but the truth is that any of the girls arriving would give him a motivation.

      That depends on how things go down in the books. In the show, Jon didn’t want to take Winterfell to reclaim it for the Starks. He only joined the fight to save Rickon because Ramsay had him — and even then, Sansa had to convince Jon that Ramsay actually had him. In the books, Jon knows Ramsay doesn’t have Arya because Ramsay’s demanding Jon send Arya back.

      But I do think Sansa will make it, and I do think she’ll be alone.

      I’m not how she would survive such a long journey alone? Sansa doesn’t have wilderness skills, she has no experience surviving the land, much less alone. I really think she’d need help and lots of it, which is no slam on Sansa! She was raised as a highborn lady. Highborn ladies aren’t taught how to live off the land.

      I don’t remember if Alys arrives alone? F!Arya certainly won’t be alone.

      No, you’re right that the vision doesn’t say anything about whether or not the girl is alone, just that a girl on a dying horse is running somewhere.

      Alys was alone with she arrived. Jeyne may or may not have Theon with her, it depends on how that happens too.

      I do think that Ramsay’s Jon’s fight though. Not only because of the pink letter, but because Jon is thinking about it and desperately wants to take action but so far his vows to the NW are holding him back. His murder will give him an excuse to leave, as in, “I fulfilled my vow”.

      Jon only resolves to march against Ramsay once the Pink Letter arrives. Before then, while Jon hates Ramsay and wants to see Stannis defeat him because Stannis fights for the realm and Ramsay is a monster, Jon didn’t have thoughts to take Winterfell from Ramsay. His concern was saving Arya.

      As for Sansa, I’m also not so sure Sansa will be raped. It’s certainly possible, of course, but there are many more ways the story with Sansa/Harry/LF can unfold.

      Meaning, he’s into seducing or raping women and then his rich family clears up his mess. And it’s established in that same chapter that he looks down on her because she is a bastard so there’s no chance he’ll respect her.

      I don’t think this means Harry will rape her. It’s always possible but I don’t recall any mentions of Harry having raped those other women. Bedding and leaving a woman doesn’t mean that guy took them by force or that he’ll take Sansa by force, even if he does look down on her.

      It’s, of course, possible but there are many other ways Sansa can suffer without rape being involved.

      ADWD was on shelves only in 2011 and there it’s clear that her “peace experiment” in Meerreen fails

      Well, this wasn’t a peace experiment. Even per Feldman, who predicted Dany’s dark turn, Dany’s efforts at peace were genuine.

      I have more to say but it’s the Friday after Halloween, which means parties 😉 And maybe it’s a debate for another time!

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    242. kevin1989,

      “But what’s the whole point of LF in the books if his story will not come to a logical ending? Doesn’t that story need to end first before she can go north? Or is LF storyline also meant to have an anti-climatic ending like the show?”

      Is LF’s ending in the show anticlimactic? Why? I remember before season 7 started I was thinking, “gods, will anyone just take LF out? I can’t stand him! Why is it that everybody else is dead and he’s still alive?” And, my prayers were answered. I was very happy with it, even though it was kind of weird, I expected more of a bang but it’ll do. I can’t have everything in this life!

      So, anyway, even if Sansa leaves LF, I think he’ll go after her, unless she kills him. Sansa is somehow implicated in all her enemies’ destruction, so I think he won’t escape, and she’s prophecied to “slay a giant”. Perhaps that’s LF, even though I suspect Tyrion (who is described as a “giant” sometimes). In favor of LF speaks the verb, “slay” which is very literal, meaning that she’ll hold the weapon herself, and we know that she carries a dagger sometimes. If LF attacks her, I don’t see how he’ll excape, while on the other hand I don’t see why she’d hold a knife against Tyrion -or perhaps there “slay” is figurative, and there will be a trial or sth or it’s sth else entirely that we don’t suspect. (in any case I think that Tyrion might be destined to the Wall in the end, if the Wall still stands)
      As for the rest, no, I don’t think that Sansa will be there when Jon will be resurrected; she’ll be there several days later. I don’t think she’ll go through the Twins/Neck, she’ll take a boat (wiser) to White Harbor. That will save her the trouble and enough time. In the timeline I suppose she’ll be there just in time to see (or motivate) Jon to gather his forces for taking WF back.
      Books and show Sansa rebuilds WF with snow. This is a huge foreshadow that she’ll reunite with Jon in time to take over WF. The Starks are meant to reunite anyway. Narratively-wise it makes sense that the two Starks who were the most distant reunite first; I guess that for the writer it’s a challenge, lots of ground to cover there.

      So, Stannis is set on taking WF, but I don’t think he’ll make it because of the winter. That doesn’t mean that he’ll die, bc as you said he has to face Daenerys. If he is defeated, Jon will gather the remaining forces around him and go to war for taking WF back. The appearance of Jon will cause the war in the North to take a whole different turn; I see mass desertions from the Bolton’s camp flowing to Jon. Of course this would mean that Jon is acclaimed king or sth (Robb’s will shall be out at some point), but Jon will want to help Stannis get the throne (possibly?). So they all march South, the Northerners and Stannis. Significantly, the forces Daenerys sees in her dream come from the North even though “usurper” is for her only a Baratheon.
      In any case I do think that Ramsay is Jon’s deal. The involvement of F!Arya who is also Sansa’s best friend, and also Ramsay’s style in the letter make it very personal for Jon. And his murder will give him an excuse to abandon the Watch once and for all.

      Btw does anyone know/guess when will Arya leave Braavos in the books?

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    243. Efi,

      Thank-you!! 🙂 I hope to god it doesn’t snow and the temperature is kind T___T

      Yes! Halloween was last night and typically, people get dressed up in costumes and go to parties (I’m going to a midnight showing of Rocky Horror Picture Show with a bunch of people :D) but when Halloween falls on a day during the week, people will have their Halloween parties on the week-end before or the week-end after. On the night of Halloween itself, kids get dressed up and go trick-or-treating, where they collect candy from the neighbours 🙂

      It’s fun! Better than Christmas! I don’t get to wear hoop skirts on Christmas! I have two friends in the Netherlands whose neighbourhood is doing their own version of Halloween and because they are professional costume designers, their costumes are beyond incredible.

      I had one more remark re: your post to Kevin!

      While I don’t know what will happen with Jon or Sansa, I’m not sure why taking Winterfell for the Starks becomes his top concern? He still has the war against the Others to contend with, the Hardhome rescue mission being something he was delegating when he was assassinated.

      I’m also not sure how Sansa building a snow castle foreshadows a reunion with Jon? She thinks of her Arya and Bran here in this chapter but not Jon (symbolism of Jon doesn’t seem to feature in this chapter either?). I can see it being foreshadowing for Sansa rebuilding Winterfell — or even experiencing its destruction but I’m not sure what it has to do with Jon in particular (other than Winterfell having been home to all of them once).

      I totally think Jon and Sansa will reunite but I think it’ll happen a bit differently in the books and probably later because of where Sansa is at right now.

      Significantly, the forces Daenerys sees in her dream come from the North even though “usurper” is for her only a Baratheon.

      I think I’m drawing a total blank here XD What dream are you referring to? I’m thinking of the House of the Undying visions, where she seems a number of things? A blue-eyed king with a red sword (indicating Stannis), a blue flower growing from a wall of ice (indicating Jon), but not forces coming from the North? These visions also included a whole a bunch of other things, such as a vision of her unborn son Rheago, a vision of Rheagar Targaryen’s death, Dany’s horse trotting through a “sea of stars”, a corpse standing on a ship with grey smiling lips, Viserys’s death, a cloth dragon on poles amidst a cheery crowd (Young Griff?), etc.

      Or is there another passage you’re thinking of?

      Myself, I think Garcia and Antonsson’s predictions might have something to them, especially with Young Griff. While I’m not sure if Robb’s will will ever be uncovered, I think it may result in some different stuff for the narrative.

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    244. kevin1989,

      Alt Shift X is coming out with a video on the mysteries of House Dayne that I believe will be out in the next few days. I think you might be interested? 🙂

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    245. Adrianacandle,

      Symbolism of Jon is always Snow. He’s literally Jon Snow. So if one chooses to see it, it’s there. She doesn’t have to think of him specifically. It’s Doylist, not Watsonian (it’s for the author and the reader who unlocks the symbolism, not for Sansa herdelf).
      In the same manner the Eyrie has a castle named Snow. So Sansa is currently in the place where Snow actually is.

      Dany’s dream:
      “That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.” (ASoS Daenerys II).

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    246. Efi,

      About Sansa and Aegon. I think her journey will lead to the Iron Throne. And I believe Aegon is real and like his father he will made a choice between a Dornish wife and a Stark. And I hope Aegon will have a connection with the Starks in the books, or maybe that will happen if Aegon will go north. And somehow I have in my head that Sansa will lead Aegon north towards the real war. Arianne already saw the drawing of the CotF, so maybe both will lead him north. But you’re point of her going north seem maybe more plausible if she will meet with the gravedigger when escaping.

      Not really manipulate, but more out-smart. She will learn the game. Cersei already stated a part of it in the time of blackwater, about controlling man, she stated to Sansa how to control man. LF is the other one. I think she will learn very fast. She will use her bond with Myranda to gain trust within the lords, I even expect that she will tell Myranda the truth and that Myranda will help her. I wonder if the Harry Plot really will happen, she declined him at the end. She already has Robin in her corner. Maybe Sansa manipulate Robin into poisoning Harry. Or maybe she does it self, or else Robin will die and Harry is heir, and she will use either one of them into gaining power and extend that power over LF. And I think she will win over LF and then LF explains what he’s after I don’t think it’s the throne.
      And it seems at least my interpretation of her winds chapter that she has Harry in her corner. She declines him for a reason, the more she declines Harry the more Harry wants her. Then she will use the lesson that Cersei told her. And I don’t see Harry as the raper, he is an arrogant rich man who looks down on the common folk, does rather sound like Sansa isn’t it in book 1? Harry is the mirror of who Sansa was, Sansa learn to live without that luxury (Which I think set her up to being a good ruler, she will not use the lessons she get for herself, but for the better of the common people in the end). And I don’t see why people think Harry is going to rape her. He seems rather mesmerized by her character, and he seems amused that she dares to talk back at him.

      As for not knowing man, I disagree. She knows man all too well at their worst, not at their best. The good men are in family. All the rest were worse. Joffrey, in book 2 there was even told to her that Joffrey still wants to use her even when he’s not marrying her. She was almost raped.

      As for the 2 routes, the first seem more plausible. But what if there’s a 3rd? Sansa even outsmart LF there, and she plays both Harry and Robin both. LF doesn’t see that Robin cling that much to Sansa. Sansa states that in her mind. And doesn’t a story where Sansa outsmart LF sound better than her once gain loses again as the stupid one? I rather hope she will succeed and her bonding with everyone in the Vale has a reason.

      I forgot that slip of Myranda that she likes Harry. Thanks for reminding me. I rather hope if Sansa needs to escape it’s because of Myranda not because of Harry, LF or a rape. But who knows how that goes. I will think about it when I read Feast again and read the Sansa chapters. And then her winds right after it. I want to see the overall arc that has unfold there. Maybe the second read I will think the same as you.

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    247. kevin1989,

      I knew what kind of man Jaime was in Episode 1, yes. He was the kind of man who threw children out of windows. And no, his bathtub revelation didn’t change that, and he most certainly did not become a good guy. That is my interpretation of the character. You may disagree, and that’s ok, only you seem to think that’s a failure of the writers’. And you only moved the goalposts after I presented my argument. You originally, “Shouldn’t a good writer have his intentions known.” You said nothing of character motivations then.
      Now, to be clear of my view on Jaime, Jaime does strive to be better. I never said characters couldn’t evolve and change. Only now, at the end of Book 5, I have my own interpretations of who the characters are, but my interpretation can change as the story progresses.

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    248. Efi,

      The thing is LF is portrait as the smartest men who sees everything. His fall needs to happen by having somebody outsmart him who he wouldn’t suspect. Sansa is a good case here. And if Sansa escape LF that means that LF escapes his faith there and that he needs to being taken out in a way that doesn’t sound that amazing. My favorite route would be that Sansa would meet up with her mother again and she lures LF into a trap. LF will get his punishment by the only woman he ever loved. Cat.

      I still like your way about her slaying LF.

      About her going north. I think she will go north when the real war arrives. I’m 99% certain she or Jon won’t reclaim Winterfell. Stannis will reclaim Winterfell with the help of Manderly. The Bolton’s won’t be defeated in big battle like the show. Winterfell will be taken from within. GRRM already stated Stannis will outlive show Stannis. He is important for the WW invasion. (But the question is how?), that means his death is fake. He will probably give Manderly his sword to show the Bolton’s Stannis is defeated, while the Manderly’s defeat all the frey’s. And Stannis men infiltrate Winterfell in Frey clothes. And open the gates for the remaining of Stannis army. Ramsay send the pink letter because Manderly gave Stannis sword to Ramsay. So proof he is death. But he ain’t death. Why do this need to happen, so Mel will burn Shireen, why does that need to happen, so Jon will be resurrected. So why does that need to happen, so Jon can leave the NW and his parentage arc can start. It will also push Stannis into a much darker path.

      When Jon arrives at Winterfell, Jon and Mel is welcomed by Stannis who is alive. Mel thinks her sacrifice of shireen worked. And once Sansa arrives in Winterfell the war against the death has already began.

      I agree that she will go north in the end, but I think before she goes there, she will go south. Aegon or Dany needs to help against the war.

      And you forget one thing, Rickon is still alive, he is important. Davos will take him back to WF. Why? Because he will be crowned King in the north in the books (my guess). People tend to forget that George won’t give one character all the titles. We have King in the north, Azor Ahai, the last hero etc. I expect all will be another character. Rickon is King in the north, Jon Azor Ahai, the last hero is Bran (probably), but that’s another debate.

      I think Arya will leave Braavos in the books. But I think she will unfold some truth’s first. Faceless men in service of the Iron Bank? Will she collapse maybe that farce?

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    249. Adrianacandle,

      I think Sansa going to WF will happen after Jon asks everyone help against the war of the Other’s. I think Dany, Aegon maybe? Will go help there. I think that everyone will arrive at Winterfell on the day the WW attack WF.

      Adrianacandle:
      kevin1989,

      Alt Shift X is coming out with a video on the mysteries of House Dayne that I believe will be out in the next few days. I think you might be interested? 🙂

      If you post it here, I will watch it.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Efi: Symbolism of Jon is always Snow. He’s literally Jon Snow. So if one chooses to see it, it’s there. She doesn’t have to think of him specifically. It’s Doylist, not Watsonian (it’s for the author and the reader who unlocks the symbolism, not for Sansa herdelf).
      In the same manner the Eyrie has a castle named Snow. So Sansa is currently in the place where Snow actually is.

      Yeah, it’s definitely an interpretation but while snow can apply to Jon, I think there needs to be maybe more that’s specific to Jon? Snow is a really broad element that’s used in the story. Snow represents a lot of things in this series — the Others, a cold marriage (per Alys), other Snows (Ramsay), etc. I think the context would need to be more specific to indicate Jon, like other (or more specific) indicators.

      However, that said, I do think Sansa and Jon will meet again at some point, as I think Jon and Sansa will each reunite with Bran and Arya.

      “That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.” (ASoS Daenerys II).

      I think Dany will fight someone in a battle related for the throne but this could also mean Dany fighting the Others, as has been speculated for this passage — mixing her desire to retake the throne from the “usurpers” who overthrew her family and this turning into a vision fighting the Others.

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    251. kevin1989,

      Yeah, I’m not sure how it will play out. I think some things we’ve seen in the show will happen but come about in different ways.

      Since watching that video with Garcia and Antonsson, I’m thinking fAegon will be who Dany views as the “pretender” to the throne and fAegon has more believability in-universe as a Targaryen than Jon does (Jon has the Stark look, there’s no record of Lyanna and Rheagar having a son or Ned Stark hiding the kid, and Jon hasn’t expressed interest in the throne). Meanwhile, if Dorne believes fAegon is Elia’s Aegon, Aegon has Targaryen features, it’s known Rhaegar and Elia had a son Aegon, and fAegon has a greater interest in the throne.

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    252. Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      I knew what kind of man Jaime was in Episode 1, yes. He was the kind of man who threw children out of windows. And no, his bathtub revelation didn’t change that, and he most certainly did not become a good guy. That is my interpretation of the character. You may disagree, and that’s ok, only you seem to think that’s a failure of the writers’. And you only moved the goalposts after I presented my argument. You originally, “Shouldn’t a good writer have his intentions known.” You said nothing of character motivations then.
      Now, to be clear of my view on Jaime, Jaime does strive to be better. I never said characters couldn’t evolve and change. Only now, at the end of Book 5, I have my own interpretations of who the characters are, but my interpretation can change as the story progresses.

      I’m not talking about our opinions as fans, but the clear cut motivation of the characters for their actions. You’re avoiding that on purpose because you know the motivation of Daenerys is still up in the air and went up in flames with the rest of KL. I will step out of this debate until you adress where motivations of character was at fault in the first 6 seasons where we still waiting on a motivation for a action of a character. If once again you try to defuse the debate by talking about something else the judging of characters by fans if we see them as good or evil, I will not react. I hope you can understand that, I’m a bit tired of keep talking about something that doesn’t get through.

      And until then I will follow Adam’s advice, I’m out of this discussion.

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    253. Adrianacandle,

      I think Aegon is the real deal, why? Because Martin has put the believe of Aegon as FAegon on purpose he is playing with us. I think he wants us too believe he is fake. For his ultimate twist that once Dany defeats Aegon, it’s revealed he was the real deal. To put guilt on Dany.

      But I also read an interesting theory, that the reason Dany get’s her vision is that Dany needs to stay in Essos until the time is right. And that that time is that Aegon sits on the throne. And that Aegon and Dany build a alliance to fight the others together. And that the burning of KL will not happen in the books because of 1 thing. Nissa Nissa is in the books. Dany dies in the end, but Nissa Nissa is not in the books. So Dany needed a convincing death by her love one. In this case Jon. So Dany needed to do something that would push Jon into killing her, burning of KL. And they even think that Aegon and Jon are combined in the show, meaning that Aegon and Dany are becoming the couple, and Aegon kills Dany for the prohecy against the other’s and becomes Azor Ahai. For me this theory is plausible, but not concrete enough to believe it will go that way, but it could go that way. And I think once Winds is out we can predict the real course if we finally see some real endpoints. To many chess pieces are left on the table to fill in this big puzzle.

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    254. Adrianacandle,

      Did someone say Rocky Horror?!! I’m such a fan, now are we talking about the movie, or the show? Either way, it’s a great time, will you be dressing up? I went in the summer, we dressed as the Time Warp dancers this time, I’ve done the whole French Maid thing a few times. One day I’ll go full Magenta.

      Ah, now that I am able to post again, I can mention the Golden Compass movie and how bad it was. Can you believe they cut all mention of Religion when the book has

      actual angels and God in it?

      Totally mad.

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    255. kevin1989,

      I don’t know what you’re so upset about? You asked me a question about Jaime and I answered it. If you didn’t want me to answer, why ask?

      Like I said, you moved the goalposts regarding interpretation of a character. You only changed it to motivations after I made you realized you were criticizing Martin’s writing as well. God forbid, right? But fine, let’s talk about character motivations. In the books, why did Robb marry Jeyne? Was it out of love or honor? Fans have said both. Why did Jaime finally reveal the secret he’s been keeping for more than a decade? Why didn’t Sansa tell Jon about the Vale army? Why did Jaquen finally allow Arya in the House of Black and White when she first arrived in Braavos?

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    256. kevin1989,

      The more I think about it, the more I think fAegon is the real deal.

      I’m not so sure about Aegon fighting the Others or him allying with/convincing Dany to. Aegon doesn’t have much, if any, connection to the Others and it’s not really his motivation. If Aegon is legit, wouldn’t Dany see Aegon as a threat? Would she unify with him in that case? Plus (and I’m sorry I keep going back to this but it does seem to be the most we’ve got from GRRM as far as Jon and Dany are concerned), Alan Taylor’s comments lead me to believe Jon and Dany will be going about the same way in the show (but probably without the claims issue if fAegon is Elia’s Aegon).

      While there is a lot of room for doubt, I think what Linda has said makes sense. The Others won’t be over by the time Dany burns King’s Landing and I think she may be Jon’s Nissa Nissa in that case — I think that’ll be the motive, especially if Dany burning KL happens how Linda believes it will.

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    257. Jenny: Did someone say Rocky Horror?!! I’m such a fan, now are we talking about the movie, or the show? Either way, it’s a great time, will you be dressing up? I went in the summer, we dressed as the Time Warp dancers this time, I’ve done the whole French Maid thing a few times. One day I’ll go full Magenta.

      Ah, now that I am able to post again, I can mention the Golden Compass movie and how bad it was. Can you believe they cut all mention of Religion when the book has

      actual angels and God in it?
      Totally mad.

      We’re going to see the movie!! With audience participation!! (Throwing rice/toast/toilet paper at the right moments! Dancing the Time Warp! Water guns to simulate rain! Glow sticks for “There’s a light…”!) My crush on Tim Curry could not be bigger. “Sweet Tranvestite” is the best song in the whole entire world!!

      That is SO cool!! I LOVE Magenta!! (And that hair!) I’m not quite so adventurous. Because I have a deeply ingrained desire for hoop skirts and princessdom, I go in my big white lacey dress with a wide wide hoop and… erm… stick a bridal veil on my head, basing the “connection” to the movie off of there being a wedding in the beginning XD WEAK, I KNOW.

      Re: Golden Compass. Yeah. I loved the casting but they really watered down the story. Religion is such a thing in that story, it’s one of the primary factors having to do with Dust, freedom of knowledge and thinking (or the limitation thereof), and the hierarchies (and workings!!) of that world. Yes, there were actual angels in it!

      I recall Lord Asriel and Mrs Coulter meeting their ends taking down the angel, the Metatron — for Lyra, who was the new Eve

      .

      Removing it removed about 60% of the story, I think.

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    258. Efi,

      I agreed, in American English we use slave owners and the Webster dictionary won’t list “slaver” as owner just trafficker.

      However BOTH Oxford dictionary app and Harper Collins dictionary list “owner of slaves” among their definitions. I have the Oxford one on my phone and I just googled Harper Collins to make sure I’m not talking out of my ass since you seem quite so ridiculously sure that all of the people here are using it wrong.

      I can take snapshots of both if it will make you reconsider accusing people of ignorance or misuse.

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    259. Adrianacandle,

      Oh it’s one of those immersive experiences? Sounds fun, I hope you have a good time. Tim Curry is the only Frankenfurter for me, nobody else comes close.

      I can’t be certain, but I seem to remember campaigns against the film, and the studio folded, people had an understandable problem with its depiction of the church. That killed the franchise before it was even released, they can’t have planned to release all three, it would have been impossible. I’m truly hoping the BBC/HBO version is good.

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    260. Jenny: Oh it’s one of those immersive experiences? Sounds fun, I hope you have a good time. Tim Curry is the only Frankenfurter for me, nobody else comes close.

      10000000000000000000% agreed. Nobody else could compare! He is Frankenfurther! XD He is just so…. him…. God, words are failing me!!

      Yes, the immersive participation experiences!

      I can’t be certain, but I seem to remember campaigns against the film, and the studio folded, people had an understandable problem with its depiction of the church. That killed the franchise before it was even released, they can’t have planned to release all three, it would have been impossible. I’m truly hoping the BBC/HBO version is good.

      I can really believe that. There are some clear links to real-world religions and religion, as depicted in the story, isn’t terribly… positive… XD;; It seems to be depicted as pretty villainous. But no, they couldn’t have released all three installments at the same time and the story stripped of religion didn’t do so well. It felt watered down.

      But damn, I loved Nicole Kidman and her Mrs Coulter. And the girl who played Lyra. And Daniel Craig’s Lord Asriel! I WISH that version could have worked! I loved the casting!

      I hope it’s better this time around too and it’s received well!

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    261. Young Dragon:
      kevin1989,

      I don’t know what you’re so upset about? You asked me a question about Jaime and I answered it. If you didn’t want me to answer, why ask?

      Like I said, you moved the goalposts regarding interpretation of a character. You only changed it to motivations after I made you realized you were criticizing Martin’s writing as well. God forbid, right? But fine, let’s talk about character motivations. In the books, why did Robb marry Jeyne? Was it out of love or honor? Fans have said both. Why did Jaime finally reveal the secret he’s been keeping for more than a decade? Why didn’t Sansa tell Jon about the Vale army? Why did Jaquen finally allow Arya in the House of Black and White when she first arrived in Braavos?

      I stated the interpretation of the motives, not how we depict characters, But that it’s clear who a character is. That doesn’t say anything about how we perceived a character as good or evil. From the start I was talking about Dany’s turn what her motives was, I never talked about if she’s good or evil.

      About Robb, the books are clear on that, it was Duty, he even stated so himself. He lay with felt guilty about taken her maidenhead and his duty told him to marry him.
      The reason why he finally revealed his secret to Brienne is multiple reasons. One he even stated right there: I’m done fighting. He is tired of keeping that lie for so long, and even more tired of the how do you say that in english your temperature when your sick, the reason why he fainted not long after. He also trusted Brienne, and found her honorable, but not a woman who would just people. Her calling him Kingslayer was the last drop. He couldn’t take that word anymore. He needed to let the trauma out. So he spilled it to Brienne.

      The next too are off the show, which I think had already some issues in season 5 when it comes to character based motivations over plot-driven motivations.
      About Arya: She asked the kindly man: Is jaqen H’gar here?
      There is no Jaqen H’gar here.
      Because Jaqen H’gar doesn’t exist. He’s no one. He closed the door, but he never said go away. Arya could still go in the house of black and white if she would have state that she is there for to become no one, instead of asking for Jaqen. So it’s that Arya needed to finally realise why she belong to the HoBaW, to become a no one.
      As for Sansa, 2 reasons 1, she didn’t trust LF. and 2. Jon wouldn’t have listen to her. He already showed that he didn’t appreciate her knowledge on Ramsay.
      Do I agree with Sansa here, a bit. But still she could have better just state to Jon that the Vale is maybe coming, but don’t keep your hopes up. And she should have been harder on Jon in my opinion. She lived with Ramsay, she knows Ramsay better, and he needs to listen to her. But that has nothing to do with motivation. I don’t know how you see that? Do you think Sansa was right holding that information? (I understand now that I asked that question myself now ;))

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    262. Adrianacandle:
      kevin1989,

      True but if that’s the case it doesn’t make sense that Jon and Dany will be the couple. Does Jon get to her to get her to the north? Which I don’t see happening. Does she go there herself? How will she go north to fight the WW.
      Does she get visions of the WW. Will she go for Stannis but found the WW instead in her way.

      As for Aegon. It does make sense, Arianne already saw the statues of the CotF. She could convince him about the Other’s. Why give Arianne that clue about the past? If not so that Arianne knowing that the cotF really existed is coming into play. Rheagar was obsessed with the Other’s. It’s highly likely that his best friend Jon Connington knows about it. Which is another part of that.
      Another connection is Tyrion, who could maybe form a bridge between Dany and Aegon. Dany could show concern that Aegon is a pretender. Tyrion could convince her he is not, that he send him west to secure her home for her.
      This could also convince Dany to go north.

      And i wonder if Sam helping Jon Connington to get free from Grey scale will happen in the books, if so Sam could also be a bridge to Jon. Sam knows about the WW.

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    263. Young Dragon:
      TormundsWoman,
      Yes, each character has done terrible things, but they are not all equal. Danerys has committed some of the most heinous crimes in the city, and would have done worse before Episode 5 if her advisers didn’t talk her down.

      Yes, you are right they are not equal. Now these other characters can also step up and do good for others too.

      I cannot wait for King Bran and Queen Sansa to put Essos on their list of issues to be talked about in their Small Councils and send help or maintain the dragon threat over the slavers of Slaver’s Bay so that Daario Naharis can rule that city in peace and no man, woman and child suffer in slavery.

      I wonder how come you haven’t foreshadowed or saw back when, that Arya becomes a mass murderer though? You know she is an assassin and in all honesty has killed quite a lot of people, extinguished a whole house male line too! And she does take that pleasure when she puts the sword through someone’s throat. It’s a bit of a sadistic tendency. I wonder when you predicted she’ll snap or become truly evil. Probably never. Because it wasn’t written out to be that way. Totally understandable. Hindsight is 20/20.

      I REFUSE TO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU HATE DANY SO MUCH!!!! Besides the last 3 eps I mean. That’s totally understandable.

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    264. kevin1989,

      True but if that’s the case it doesn’t make sense that Jon and Dany will be the couple. Does Jon get to her to get her to the north? Which I don’t see happening. Does she go there herself? How will she go north to fight the WW.

      Not sure what you mean why it wouldn’t make sense? Why couldn’t Jon convince Dany but Aegon could? Especially if Dany doesn’t view Jon as a threat and Dany would want to protect the realm from becoming zombified?

      Dany has fewer reasons to help Aegon, a rival to the throne, than Jon, who isn’t interested in the throne. Likewise, Jon has actual experience with this threat.

      As for Aegon. It does make sense, Arianne already saw the statues of the CotF. She could convince him about the Other’s. Why give Arianne that clue about the past? If not so that Arianne knowing that the cotF really existed is coming into play. Rheagar was obsessed with the Other’s. It’s highly likely that his best friend Jon Connington knows about it. Which is another part of that.

      It’s still not as big a part of Aegon’s story though — we’d have to go through an entire narrative to get to Aegon being convinced and wanting to fight. Jon’s already convinced, this is already something he’s trying to fight since book 1. Aegon may play a part but he’s not even a primary character. I think it needs to be Jon here.

      Another connection is Tyrion, who could maybe form a bridge between Dany and Aegon. Dany could show concern that Aegon is a pretender. Tyrion could convince her he is not, that he send him west to secure her home for her.
      This could also convince Dany to go north.

      But if Dany views Aegon as a threat — unlike Jon, Aegon wants the throne — why would she help him just on Tyrion’s word? Why would Dany believe Aegon if she told him about the Others and not Jon? When Jon came to Dany in the show, Jon wasn’t a threat or a rival to the throne. He was King in the North — a territory Dany wanted and Jon held. I’m not sure why Dany would help (or trust) somebody she views as a pretender? Or somebody else helping that somebody out?

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    265. TormundsWoman,

      How do you know that I didn’t predict Arya massacring House Frey? I mean, I wouldn’t say I absolutely knew it was going to happen, but it doesn’t surprise me and was completely within her character, just like Danerys.

      Danerys is actually one of my favorite characters. She’s a fascinating character, because of her ability to both do great things and her capability to commit terrible atrocities. I never lost sight of who she was and always knew what she was capable of.

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    266. TormundsWoman,

      I don’t understand what the problem is. Your sources confirm exactly what I said above. Some dictionaries are quicker in picking up common use of words. Some others are older and more traditional, like Webster’s and Oxford Learners. You’re the one who brought up the differences between American English and English in the first place.
      Also, I don’t see how I insulted you, but I am sorry if you feel that way, it wasn’t intended. Common use of language is common use of language and people are not to blame about it (one of my teachers even said once that the people are right most of the times, which nevertheless doesn’t exclude abuse of language in some cases).
      I didn’t use any personal characterizations against you, but you did. (and I do feel offended).
      And, in any case, I’m not the one that should trouble you. You might get to more satisfying and safer results about what’s troubling you if you stop for one moment to consider if Martin means “slave traders” or “slave owners” in his work. Sometimes what we think we “know” is not what actually “is”. Would that things were that easy for all of us!

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    267. kevin1989,

      Fine, fair enough.

      That may have been Robb’s excuse in the books, but there’s also the line “I took the castle and she took my heart.” That leaves room to interpret that Robb married Jeyne because he loved her, but he knew how that would sound. It’s not so cut and dry.

      It’s been a while since I’ve read the books, so if Jaime really gave the reason that he’s tired of fighting, then fair enough.

      I agree with your interpretations of the show, but that’s the thing. They are interpretations, because I don’t believe the reasons are given in the show.

      As for Sansa, I think she should have told Jon. Delay the battle a day, maybe, and if the Vale hasn’t arrived by then, proceed with the attack.

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    268. Efi,

      There’s no problem. I brought it up in the beginning just to help, when you said that people here use it wrong (because Martin wrote it in AmEng so he used it for Slaver’s Bay that way), but it was the show that’s discussed here and some may not be aware of the difference.

      This is what I said:

      TormundsWoman: You mean in American English.

      (this is basically where I agreed that yes in AmEng slavers is trader of slaves not owner). And the I said:

      Slavers definitely also means owner of slaves.

      (in the Oxford dictionary which I had on my phone and later I looked at Harper Collins just to double check)

      I only said I will take a pic if it will make you stop, because you said that it’s wrong to use it like that. It’s not, the word exists in English with that definition now, regardless of how that came to be (by constant misuse, by the language evolving etc). I don’t doubt your expertise as a historian and your mastery of English, and you didn’t insult me personally though. I am old enough not be insulted on the interwebz. I just didn’t want others who didn’t know about the multiple use, to think it’s truly wrong to use it in that way.

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    269. Young Dragon,

      Lol you did not predict Arya will snap! link or it didn’t happen. That made me truly laugh.

      I did read above where you told Kevin (?) that you didn’t hate her, that Dany is one of faves but I just cannot believe that you would see the crucifying of the Masters as an evil thing because they were not guilty of the specific crime of nailing the kids before she came to the city. I’ve seen you make that argument many times and I just can’t believe you’d see it as something horrific and unjustified.

      Dany’s fight was with the system of ruling (book and show). The slavery: trade and ownership is part and parcel of it. If there is no demand there is no offer so both slave owners and slavers are guilty from her perspective of the fight and in truth I agree. Those specific masters were not guilty you say. But they haven’t stopped the ones who did it. Enabling is a thing. Turning a blind eye is a thing, and eventually revenge is also a thing (like Arya’s over the Freys yet I didn’t see you badmouthing her as you do Dany, and in fact I can’t even remember you saying anything bad about it come to think of it).

      Anyways, I am tired, I didn’t mean to rant about this subject and you have wrote extensively about all of this anyway so I know where you stand (which made me thinK that you’re just taking a piss out of us about Dany being a character you liked).

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    270. kevin1989,

      Lol, that’s a lot of speculation! But I’ll speculate too because it’s fun.

      I think narratively-wise it makes no sense that Stannis takes WF, it’s not his war, which is why he tried to convince Jon to step up as lord of WF. I think the Starks will have to retake their own home. (wouldn’t that be satisfying! 5 books of seeing how they were killed, suppressed and exploited by others) And frankly, I have no idea what Martin intends to do with Rickon. I really hope the kid won’t die -he’s only 6 years old, it’d be brutal if he died. Also, Rickon normally is the next heir to WF after Bran. The way I see it, if the boy lives, I see them all at CB. I’d so love to read such a chapter where they’re together!

      Now, incidentally I was reading this last night:
      “I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.” (ASoS, Arya VIII)

      The “castle built of snow” may only mean two things: it’s either the Eyrie or WF. The Eyrie, where Sansa literally builds a snow castle, or WF because that snow castle was WF. So if this prophecy refers to LF it might be that he dies at the Eyrie; I have speculated about it already; if she kills him, her being only a bastard child would mean that they’d be searching for her as a killer, so she’d have to flee. If, on the other hand, she flees earlier (because she refuses to play LF’s games anymore and sth terrible has happened), she goes to CB somehow, and she only faces LF after she and Jon have retaken WF. In this scenario “slaying a savage giant” could very well be figurative and there might be a trial of LF.
      As Adriana says, the interpretation depends on what meaning we attribute to “snow”. Is it just snow or does it stand in for Jon Snow? As you say, it also depends on the role Martin still has saved for LF. If he helps the Starks somehow to retake WF, Martin will keep LF a little longer. The show seems to indicate that this will be the case, but I am generally against taking the show as proof on what happens in the books, because the show is simple but the books are very complicated (and in the books there’s always Stannis to consider).
      [I’d love it if the giant was Tyrion tbh, it would be a huge overturn. However, I think Tyrion might be destined to go to the Wall; he needs to face a third trial, as in the show (in the books everything comes in threes) and I think he’ll be condemned to the Wall where he’ll finally have the power he wants. There’s foreshadow about it in the books]

      I don’t think that Sansa is meant to meet her mother again. Sansa is her substitute for LF, so it’s a bit redundant that they both sit in judgement of him, while, on the other hand, it feels more exciting if LF’s creation exceeds her master and causes his downfall. Catelyn appears to be more connected with issues of justice that are bound to Arya too, so I think she’ll meet Arya. Also Catelyn is dead and kills people, and Arya is connected with Death and kills people. Arya needs to see how far “justice” aka revenge can go and needs to take her distance from it, and I think the murder of the Freys that Catelyn will commit will show that to her.

      But I have no idea if there will be a battle to retake WF. At some point in one of his chapters Jon thinks of the battles that have taken place at WF.:

      “He was not sure how he felt about what he had just read. Battles had been fought at WF before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. “The castle is a shell”, he said, “not WF, but the ghost of WF”. It was painful just to think of it, much less say the words aloud. And still…”

      So there might be a battle after all. Of note, Jon speaks about “the ghost of WF”. And who’s a ghost after his murder?

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    271. TormundsWoman,

      Alright, so now I have question.
      Aren’t we as readers/audience supposed to question Dany’s methods? She’s against slavery, yes. She sees what slavery can do in the crucifixion of children and the mass castration of young boys for enabling their training.
      Does this mean that because the slavers have their methods, Dany’s methods are also justified? Does one type of cruelty justify another type of cruelty? Does it mean that her being in a path of a “crusade” (for lack of better word) her reasons justify her methods? And does her goal to re-gain her ancestral home, which is her ulterior motive, fall into the same justification?

      [For me, it doesn’t. You can’t claim moral superiority while all along using the same methods as those you denounce. Dany doesn’t have the monopoly on justice, morality and universal truth no matter her motivations]

      Dany did buy those Unsullied. And it’s that system she loathes (rightly so) that gave them to her. She freed them afterwards, but as I see it, the Unsullied didn’t really have a choice but to follow her, as did all the slaves she freed. At Meereen, when she sees that she cannot eliminate the system and that there are many problems created by abolishing slavery altogether, she decides on taking a percentage from the reselling of people into slavery.
      This is not to say that she was either completely right or completely wrong. Just that (imo) the story by itself calls us to be suspicious of her, to question her motives and her methods. We can cheer for her; but we can also reproach her just the same. Dany apparently learns that there’s no black and white and there’s no easy solutions to complicated problems.
      [And perhaps so do we.]

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    272. Adrianacandle,

      Well Jon doesn’t have the time. I highly expect that the wall will go down in the winds final chapter, and Dany will still not be in Westeros by then. She needs to do a lot, her whole Dothraki trip, going back to Meereen, leaving Meereen and take everyone with her. I suspect a chapter on boat before Valyria, then she will deal with Volantis. And maybe go to Braavos (Memory) But this one I’m not so sure off. And arriving in Westeros. And there is no time for Jon to get her to go north in the books. He is busy fighting the Others who had passed the wall already, so Dany will be pushed north because of another reaso. Or do people expect that the wall will go down halfway through Dream of Springs. So that Aegon could be the person is more that Jon can’t because of the timeline.

      That will leave a couple of possibilities. Dany gets visions of the north and go north to fight the WW. She will be convinced to go north but this case it can’t be Jon. So Aegon and Arianne is a possibility. Arianne has seen the CotF cave, she know that the existed and not just a myth. Aegon will probably get to know the truth about the WW treat because of Jon Connington who tell stories about Rheagar believing he was Azor Ahai, and then he believed his son, Aegon was Azor Ahai. Maybe they even find the book that Rheagar read that made him believe in it.

      But we are made to believe that she will see Aegon as a threat, who said the books will go there in the end? Isn’t it more logical that Tyrion had his chapters with Aegon and later with Dany because he is supposed to be the bridge between Aegon and Dany. And if Aegon will not be arrogant and send her a letter with: “My queen, I secure our home for your return” It’s highly possible that this will not go down as we will expect in the books. And Dany always want to go home. And what if Dany goes beserk because of Euron’s magic, or when Aegon and Dany are both in the castle and Euron attacks and that’s why she set the wildfire pots on flame.

      That Aegon will be the one to convince Dany to go north doesn’t mean that Jon is not the most important one with the War against the death. He could ask the throne for help. And sending out letters to anyone. Sam could help Jon Connington with his Grey scale like he did with Jorah in the books, and he could tell Aegon about the Other’s.

      But for Dany Aegon fighting each other you need also one other thing. Aegon needs to want to fight Dany. That’s not the case right now. He wants to welcome her home, that means if Dany is at KL, he will open the gates for her to enter the city. So even if Dany sees him as a pretender, Aegon doesn’t see her as an enemy. He sees her as an ally. And how will Dany burn KL down if Aegon opens the gates for her.

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    273. Young Dragon,

      I will read Storms next week I will look into Cat’s chapters where he talked about Jeyne. But what I remember that Robb was sad because of Bran and Rickon and she comfort him and that’s why they had sex. And after that they married for her honor.

      For me s1-s4 were pretty straight-forward with the motivations. S5 and s7. Were still pretty good, but it became more finding the right motivation, but it was there. S7 plot-motivations overshadowed character-motivations a bit, second part of s8, even when I loved all 3 episodes, the motivations were too much left to be guessed. (Petra did explain it pretty well there in her video back then)

      Agree with Sansa, I understand her motivations, I would be pissed off also at Jon for not listening. But she should have stood her ground there, show Jon what she knows and that he makes a mistake. Arya would have put Jon into his place. (But I understood Jon also)

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    274. Efi,

      I love it. There are so many roads that the story could go.
      Well for me narratively wise it makes more sense that the once that died at the Red Wedding, the family of those. Yes we as viewers see the Starks as the once that lost everything, but there are more houses that lost people in the war of 5 kings. I think the northern conspiracy is a more narratively-wise way to end the Bolton’s. So if Stannis takes back WF it’s not because of Stannis himself, but because of Manderly, and my guess when the Bolton’s are defeated, Rickon is brought in claim back his home. I don’t believe the books will throw out the northern conspiracy for the sake of having a big battle for Jon taking back Winterfell. It seems the Bolton’s are defeated from within. I would love a more political way than another big battle. We already have that in Meereen in the books.
      But there is also the Stannis will go dark when he sees the power of Ice (his winds chapter ends with him sacrificing Theon before a heart-tree). So maybe that will come into play. Personally for me I would hate it if Ramsay would win over Stannis and Stannis, Theon, Asha etc are all gone in one single sweep. And it also doesn’t make sense that Manderly will help the Bolton’s win. It would undo whole Dance storyline for those characters if that will happen.

      I like you’re idea of slaying the giant. But I think we already got that already. Sansa build her Castle of snow. Robin played the giant in that scene and destroyed her castle. And Sansa slayed him by slapping him. I think it’s referring to that. But I like that it could refer to LF.

      But if snow refers to Jon. Could it also meant as slaying the giant in Kings landing. That castle belongs to Snow. And if it’s Tyrion as you states maybe Sansa is the one that exposes Tyrion’s lies and send him to the wall. Who knows.

      I like the idea that Arya will meet with LSH. But about Sansa meeting her. I read a theory a couple of years back. I think it was when season 3 just aired or even before. That there will be a new Red Wedding. But this time LSH is the one do the killing and the wedding is that of Sansa and Harry the heir. I think I will look that theory up once I finish the whole book series again, which may take a while. But you think Arya will point LSH north to the WW treat? I would love that.

      “He was not sure how he felt about what he had just read. Battles had been fought at WF before, but never one without a Stark on one side or the other. “The castle is a shell”, he said, “not WF, but the ghost of WF”. It was painful just to think of it, much less say the words aloud. And still…”
      So there might be a battle after all. Of note, Jon speaks about “the ghost of WF”. And who’s a ghost after his murder?

      Isn’t Theon the Ghost of Winterfell? At least he was named that in one of his chapters.

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    275. kevin1989,

      Well, a lot of this stuff hasn’t happened yet though and we don’t know when it will or even how it will. We don’t know what Jon will be doing in Winds. These arguments are depending on things that have not come to pass yet.

      Plus these same arguments ring true for Aegon — a lot needs to be done to even convince Aegon that this threat is even real when, as of ADWD, it’s not even part of his story yet. Aegon is fussed at the idea that he must go to Dany as a “beggar” when he has the greater claim and when it seems like he might be coming around, has a temper tantrum over just losing a game. It took Jon three books of development to get to the point where Aegon would need to be and Jon’s a POV character who has already undergone a multitude of experiences to get him where he is now. So it sounds like it’s going to take a lot of convincing for Aegon — beyond stories — to even convince him that this thing might not be just a story, much less put it above the throne.

      Stories are different from believing it’s real, from seeing it’s real. Most in Westeros have heard the stories but, aside from the Watch rangers who have seen this threat and wildlings, they don’t believe it’s real. There are even those in the Watch who don’t really believe it. Marsh, himself, doesn’t get the sheer gravity of the threat when Jon spelled it out to him, still insisting that wildlings are their enemy.

      Something else may get Dany north but I don’t think it’s going to be Aegon — especially if Dany views him as a pretender and I don’t know why she’d believe he’s legit, particularly since he’s a stranger to her and she has no reason to trust him. Aegon wants the throne, Dany’s not going to like a rival to that throne.

      Now, it might be Sam who will beseech her for her help, who was urged on by Aemon that Daenerys is their only hope.

      But I strongly feel it needs to be somebody who has experience and knowledge of this threat and somebody who Dany doesn’t view as a threat to her claim.

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    276. Efi & Adriana, I read a couple of interesting ideas about the second Dance of Dragon.
      https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4s8z5l/spoilers_everything_to_go_north_you_must_journey/

      https://www.quora.com/Will-Daenerys-fight-Young-Griff-at-the-end-of-ASOIAF-How-do-you-think-it-will-go-down

      https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2f7vud/spoilers_all_why_are_people_so_sure_dany_and/

      In another one I read this comment which I liked, I put it in spoiler-tags:

      It could also just start by accident. Look at what set off the Wo5K. If she’s doesn’t hear about Aegon, as far as she’s concerned, the entire continent has to be conquered, so she invades, Aegon moves to repel this invasion of Dothraki, ironmen, and foreign eunuchs, and by the time everyone realizes they’re supposed to be on the same side, it’s too late. I don’t think this particular scenario is all that likely, but it is a possibility. It seems unlikely, but i would like it.

      And this one: I think that their relationship hinged on Tyrion’s convincing Aegon to go to Westeros and take the Iron Throne for himself. Dany is certainly no pushover, but what she wants more than anything is a real family, and Aegon would give that to her. She may be more willing than we expect to ally with him, give him a dragon, marry him and rule with him, or maybe even rule beside him.

      However, that didn’t happen. I predict that at some point in TWOW, Aegon will win the Iron Throne while Dany is still in Essos. He’s done it without Dany or her dragons, and there’s no use for her anymore, except to maybe have a whole string of silver-haired children and start a new Targaryen dynasty (there’s no way for him to know that she’s probably barren). So in his eyes, Dany transforms from something that he NEEDS to something that he will simply want to screw from time to time. And although we don’t know a lot about his personality, we do know a bit: he’s proud and stubborn, and is convinced the throne is his. There’s no way he’s giving it up once he has it… but he still might think that having a dragon of his own would be cool. Aegon has also been proven to be easily manipulated, and it would not be out of character for him to take the poor advice of someone who wants to take advantage of the young king. Instead of listening to someone like JonCon, who will still probably want a safe alliance with Dany, Aegon will listen to someone who tells him that one or three dragons are HIS by rights, and he’ll just take one of his own without asking Dany. We know that those dragons are Dany’s children, and she would probably already be majorly pissed at arriving in Westeros to her long-lost nephew sitting on the Iron Throne and wanting nothing to do with her other than to wife her, fuck her, and get her with child. She goes after Aegon and the dragon that he’s taken and they battle to the death… and there we have it, Dance of Dragons 2.0.

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    277. kevin1989,

      But we are made to believe that she will see Aegon as a threat, who said the books will go there in the end? Isn’t it more logical that Tyrion had his chapters with Aegon and later with Dany because he is supposed to be the bridge between Aegon and Dany. And if Aegon will not be arrogant and send her a letter with: “My queen, I secure our home for your return” It’s highly possible that this will not go down as we will expect in the books.

      Maybe but it doesn’t look favourable. Aegon wants the throne, he’s been groomed for the throne. He’s claiming he’s the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. He expected Dany to just take him at his word — as a kinsman. But Aegon is asking a lot here. Why on earth would Dany believe him, especially when this out-of-nowhere-guy is claiming he has a right to the throne she’s been working toward since book 1? The thing that represents home to her, the thing that Dany believes will help her regain home and a sense of belonging? Dany won’t be pleased about this guy showing up out of nowhere, claiming he’s the murdered son of her brother and especially when she doesn’t know this guy from Adam. Dany has no reason to trust him — or Tyrion, especially if he vouches for this guy.

      In the show, when Dany came around to Tyrion, Tyrion wasn’t vouching for a guy who was claiming he had the greater claim to the throne. When Dany learned Varys was trying to press Jon’s claim, she executed Varys for treason.

      So I’m not sure why Dany would trust fAegon — who poses a threat to her claim and wants this claim — or Tyrion, a stranger and a Lannister, especially if he’s vouching for her rival.

      I don’t think a letter will be enough to sway Dany’s fears about the one the she believes is the answer to everything or convince Dany that he’s no pretender. Aegon poses a threat to what Dany believes will give her everything she’s been looking for (the throne) and what’s more, Aegon wants the throne.

      And Dany always want to go home. And what if Dany goes beserk because of Euron’s magic, or when Aegon and Dany are both in the castle and Euron attacks and that’s why she set the wildfire pots on flame.

      I think Dany feels that in claiming the throne, she’ll find home. Don’t know about the second part because it hasn’t happened. But as of now, I’m having a hard time seeing Dany trust Aegon — a rival who wants the throne — at all.

      But for Dany Aegon fighting each other you need also one other thing. Aegon needs to want to fight Dany. That’s not the case right now.

      Perhaps, but he’s proposing something that is understandably not agreeable to Dany. He wants her to believe this out-of-nowhere stranger is her nephew, that he has the greater claim, and Aegon wants to be king. Dany doesn’t want to be a consort, much less to a guy making all these claims. And Dany has no reason to believe this dude is legit.

      Maybe Aegon doesn’t view Dany as a threat but Dany would. Aegon has the looks to pass him off as a Targaryen and if he wins the support of Dorne, if he gets Dorne to believe him, Aegon’s already got Westerosi support over Dany. And that’s without any pre-existing relationship between them.

      Why would Dany want to be consort to a stranger, a stranger she may view as a pretender?

      And how will Dany burn KL down if Aegon opens the gates for her.

      Because Aegon wants to be king. Dany doesn’t want to be a consort.

      Linda thinks Dany doesn’t burn down KL as intentionally as she did in the show. She thinks Dany will ruthlessly conquer the city but won’t go strafing the streets one by one after surrender. In taking the city, Linda believes dragonfire will ignite the wildfire caches and people will blame Dany for intentionally destroying the city.

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    278. kevin1989,

      That first link is interesting and I think it’s a possibility Dany may go south first before she goes north. But that she won’t fight the Others at all? I think that will create a gaping hole with all the mystical and magical elements to Dany’s story and her story has one of the highest amounts of it, perhaps even more than Jon. And I’m not sure how anybody could survive a battle against the Others without Dany.

      Plus, there’s GRRM’s comment about how the story is about Jon and Dany, per Taylor — so to have Dany confined to the south while Jon deals with stuff in the north doesn’t feel quite right.

      And I feel there’s way too much connecting Dany to the Others just to gloss over that aspect of the story in regard to her.

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    279. Adrianacandle,

      Agree about Aegon, somehow I begin to suspect that it will lead to a feud, but I think that is not Dany or Aegon intention. I begin to suspect that Tyrion will be at fault here. And maybe Aegon will steal a dragon of Dany, but who would put him up to that? The only one I would see him putting him up to that will not be in his storyline. LF. And I think that afterward Dany will shit about killing Aegon. I think she will slay the lies (Which is not Aegon himself I think he is in fact real), but the lies that lead to the second dance. LF, Varys etc.

      And as for Dany going north, oh she will surely going north. But I think Ice and Fire will meet around the trident. Dany going north, the death and Jon etc going south.

      Or is it possible that Marwyn will convince Dany to go north first? I forgot about Marwyn.

      But that the story is about Dany and Jon doesn’t mean that they will get a relationship in the books. It could be an alliance. Or enemies in the end, or something else. Talyor didn’t say that GRRM told that they will be a couple, only that the story was about those 2. It could be the same as GRRM telling about Shireen’s burning in which i doubt Stannis does in the books. Or Hodor. GRRM already told that Hodor means hold the door, but that it will be different in the books, so not the cave hold the door scene. He states it will happen in another location.

      I really wish winds was out so the timeline could make more sense of the endgame. There are so many roads it could go to with Aegon, with Jon and Dany. With the Other’s etc.

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    280. I always like putting theories together. So that’s what I will do now.
      1. Rheago would be the Stallion who mounts the world. Putting cities to the dust.
      2. The theory that Tyrion = Rheago
      3. Tyrion putting Dany on a dark path that lead to the destruction of slaver’s bay. And the dance of dragon part 2.
      If you combine them it make sense. That Tyrion = Rheago that bring cities to the dirt. But from behind the scenes.

      I started my rerun again. I finish the first 2 books. So now season 1 and 2 are on my list. Then book 3 and season 3 and 4.

      I loved that scene with Tyrion and mort: You’re a smart man.
      Brilliant XD

      There’s also a foreshadowing here, Tyrion stated he is good of convincing other’s to do violence for him.

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    281. kevin1989,

      Agree about Aegon, somehow I begin to suspect that it will lead to a feud, but I think that is not Dany or Aegon intention.

      The thing is, both Dany and Aegon believe the throne is theirs by right so I definitely think that will lead to a clash.

      I begin to suspect that Tyrion will be at fault here. And maybe Aegon will steal a dragon of Dany, but who would put him up to that?

      Tyrion may fan the flames of dissent between them but I think there’s already enough dissent without Tyrion egging it on. Aegon’s asking some pretty big things of Dany — that he has the greater claim to the throne she believes is the answer to all her hopes and dreams, that this throne should be his, and she should believe him — and both believe the throne is theirs by right.

      The only one I would see him putting him up to that will not be in his storyline. LF. And I think that afterward Dany will shit about killing Aegon. I think she will slay the lies (Which is not Aegon himself I think he is in fact real)<, but the lies that lead to the second dance.

      Would Aegon even be able to steal a dragon? They’re thinking, feeling creatures and won’t let just anyone mount them. Would Rhaegal and Viserion just allow Aegon to steal one of them away from a woman they view as their mother?

      But I think Ice and Fire will meet around the trident. Dany going north, the death and Jon etc going south.

      What do you mean? Why would death and Jon go south?

      Or is it possible that Marwyn will convince Dany to go north first? I forgot about Marwyn.

      I honestly have no clue. I think there are probably possibilities that could play out but I think something will need to urge Dany north.

      But that the story is about Dany and Jon doesn’t mean that they will get a relationship in the books. It could be an alliance. Or enemies in the end, or something else. Talyor didn’t say that GRRM told that they will be a couple, only that the story was about those 2.

      It wasn’t just that one comment, Taylor’s comment afterward seems to indicate a relationship because at the time he gave that interview, it was just before 706 aired (interview was released the day after 706 aired) — when Jon and Dany began becoming more personal with one another. He says, “But [Martin] knew from the very beginning where he was driving and now we’re starting to see that come to fruition. We know that it’s circling tighter and tighter on Dany and Jon and their partnership is starting to form, you know, “fire and ice.”

      What starts coming to fruition is their relationship at this point, becoming intimate in 707. If this was a divergence from what GRRM had planned at this point, I don’t see how Taylor could make those statements. Taylor’s comments about seeing what Martin was driving at starting to come to “fruition” appears to indicate it’s going on the same path.

      It may come about differently, but I think the general direction is approximately the same.

      It could be the same as GRRM telling about Shireen’s burning in which i doubt Stannis does in the books. Or Hodor. GRRM already told that Hodor means hold the door, but that it will be different in the books, so not the cave hold the door scene. He states it will happen in another location.

      We don’t know exactly what GRRM specified to D&D though. All we know is GRRM told D&D three “holy sh!t” moments and Shireen and Hodor are two of them. I’ve no doubt things will come about differently but I think the broad plot points will remain the same.

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    282. Jenny,

      I found this just now but HBO has some new HDM featurettes about the actors bringing their respective characters to life (Lyra, Mrs Coulter, Lord Asriel, Lee Scoresby) if you’re interested!

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    283. kevin1989,

      Gah, I forgot to mention! I did see the House Dayne video as an early release (I’m a low level Patreon supporter of AltShiftX) and it’s very good! I think you’ll really enjoy it — it really focuses on Dawn, how Dawn is special (it’s not an inherited sword but a sword given based on merit. It’s also incredibly ancient and might have had its own power at one point), House Dayne’s history, Arthur Dayne, Ashara, the mystery of their house, and the narrative roles they have in the story. It also speculates if there was some unknown agreement between Ned and the Daynes — the Daynes are still pretty friendly to Ned, despite him killing Arthur and supposedly being the reason Ashara committed suicide. Edric Dayne doesn’t speak ill at all of Ned and the Daynes let Ned stop by and allow him to have his “bastard son” Jon nursed by their wetnurse Wylla, who was also nursing Edric at the time. The video also points out that Arthur Dayne and Ned essentially wanted the same thing at the Tower of Joy — to protect Lyanna and her son.

      And it goes into prophecies! So I’m really eager for that video to become public so I can share it with you!

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    284. Adrianacandle,

      But at the end of Dance Dany is still busy with Meereen and hold of the claim to the Iron Throne, something needs to fuel that, that’s Tyrion. Tyrion has already manipulate Aegon into going West, so it’s possible he is also the one that fuels Dany’s right to the Iron Throne.

      If I’m right in the book it’s stated that only one dragon per dragonrider. George also states that there will be 3 dragonriders in the end but that one of those dragonriders maybe not a Targaryen. My guess is Rheagal will be stolen by Aegon, Rheagal choose him. Dany will mount Drogon. And Euron is the third who steals Vyserion. 3 heads of the dragon. Not a single dragon rider in asoiaf history has mount more than one Dragon. And also if there will be a dance of dragon part 2, the dragons need to be part of it. Else it would not be a dance but just an annihilation.

      The timeline, at the end of Winds the wall needs to go down, if George waits till halfway through dream, the treat of the WW is not that great. And the horn of winter is the symbol of winds. I think it’s high likely that the wall will go down at the end of winds. Maybe even the epilogue. Dany herself can’t do all her Essos stuff, defeat Aegon and going north in that time. Which is a lot for one book. I think the north and Jon will lose in Winterfell. Retreat south and dany goes north and it all comes together at the Trident. Fire and Ice.

      But there’s even a mistake in Taylor’s comment. He refer to Jon as Ice. But Jon is ice and fire. He is both. Lyanna was ice, Rheagar was fire. And a partnership can also mean that they become allies in the war against the death. And fire (Dany) will be part of the WW storyline (Ice). Varys and Illyrio also have a partnership, but not a romantic one. And even if they don’t become romantic involved Taylor’s statement is true. It all is about Dany and Jon in the end. But they probably will of course fall in love, but I wonder the timeline for that. But I wonder if Taylor statement is prove that they will get a relationship, because GRRM is still not answering if Dany and Jon will get a relationship in the books, even after taylor’s statement. And I’m always caution with the “Person X stated this”. But they probably will get a relationship but I wonder how that all will unfold.

      And yes I think many plotpoints will be the same, but other’s will not, and I think the roads will be different which results in the feeling that winds and Dream are almost unique on their own. Half of winds contain of storylines that’s was not in the books. Aegon, LSH, Vale storyline, Dorne, Euron etc. While other’s are different like Arya.

      I really wish winds would come out soon.

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    285. Adrianacandle,

      Let me know. I wonder what he thinks about it. And is it connected to the WW treat?

      Adrianacandle,

      I put in into a next tab. I will watch it tomorrow. I’m currently watching 1×07. I think I will watch the first 2 seasons. And then back to Storm of swords.

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    286. TormundsWoman,

      I already said I didn’t predict. Or I should say, I didn’t predict exactly what she was going to do. I assumed she was taking LSH’s role of taking down House Frey, but in what capacity, I did not know. Like I said, it didn’t surprise me. You do realize that asking someone to link something they posted 3 or 4 years ago is a ridiculous request, right? I wasn’t even that active on this site back then, so I may not have posted anything at all.

      About Danerys, saying those men are to blame for not stopping it will be like saying that Jaime was to blame for not stopping the Mad King from killing Ned’s father and brother. They were obviously in the minority and wouldn’t have had the power. Besides, their guilt wouldn’t come close to matching the men who were actually responsible. That’s not even what I’m getting at. When Danerys looked at the masters, she made a generalization and declared that all the men were guilty without even entertaining the notion that some of them may be against child murder. Making generalizations about a group of people is one of the character traits of a tyrant. So all those saying that she turned into a tyrant in 3 episodes are wrong. She was displaying tyrant qualities long before then.

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    287. kevin1989,

      But at the end of Dance Dany is still busy with Meereen and hold of the claim to the Iron Throne, something needs to fuel that, that’s Tyrion. Tyrion has already manipulate Aegon into going West, so it’s possible he is also the one that fuels Dany’s right to the Iron Throne.

      Oh, I think you’re right that Tyrion plays a role and will fan the flames. I think he will back Dany — this aligns with the show, even if the details are kind of different.

      I think you’re right about dragonriders but I’m questioning if Aegon can even steal a dragon because dragons aren’t like objects — Rhaegal and Viserion may not let Aegon or Euron steal one of them. So I think there’d need a way to get around that… I’m not sure how? But admittedly, it’s not something I’ve thought deeply about.

      But yes, I think for it to be a dance, perhaps the dragons would need to be involved (at least between two of them).

      Which is a lot for one book. I think the north and Jon will lose in Winterfell. Retreat south and dany goes north and it all comes together at the Trident. Fire and Ice.

      It’s a lot, I agree. A lot needs to happen in these last two books but the books aren’t so constrained for length like TV episodes and seasons are. They are still a bit — there are some limitations — but not a many.

      But a lot needs to happen.

      I’m not sure Jon how/if will fight for Winterfell. There’d need to be a motivation beyond claims (but I’m sure one can be rustled up). Fighting to reclaim it for the Starks doesn’t seem entirely enough for me.

      In ADWD, while Jon does remind Stannis that Winterfell belongs to Sansa and I’m sure he’d prefer it go to Sansa or another Stark, Jon can also accept an Umber or even (grudgingly) a Karstark holding Winterfell just as long as it’s not a Bolton or Greyjoy. (I’ll pull up the quote if you like. I’m afraid this post will get spam checked for length if I put it in this one).

      When Jon resolves to march on Winterfell, it doesn’t have a political motivation but an emotional one — Ramsay is sullying the seat of House Stark and everything it stands for with his depravity. Not only that, Ramsay is personally rubbing this in Jon’s face and demanding Jon himself commit morally repulsive actions by sending individuals under his protection to a monster who flays women alive.

      But with the assassination, I expect there will be utter chaos holding Jon back from going to Winterfell. The peace he worked so hard to build with the wildlings will be at its breaking point since the bridge between the Watch and the wildlings is Jon, who Tormund and many wildlings respect, and Jon was assassinated by his own men.

      As for “fire and ice”, I don’t think it’s really a mistake — I think it’s less to do with of blood and more to do with association. Jon is associated with ice (the North, the Wall, ice zombies, the Starks) and Dany with fire (heat of the East, Tarygarnes, dragons, fire).

      It’s true, there’s no guarantee but I agree. The reason I think Taylor’s comment here indicates more than a partnership is 1) what ended up coming to fruition at the point of this interview was a more than a partnership (which I think was starting to form at around 704 but wasn’t official until 706 when Dany declared to fight alongside Jon, after which this interview was released) but a personal relationship and 2) since this interview was released the day after 706, Taylor wouldn’t be able to yet reveal the intimate aspect since it would spoil the plot point for 707.

      And yes I think many plotpoints will be the same, but other’s will not, and I think the roads will be different which results in the feeling that winds and Dream are almost unique on their own. Half of winds contain of storylines that’s was not in the books. Aegon, LSH, Vale storyline, Dorne, Euron etc. While other’s are different like Arya.
      I really wish winds would come out soon.

      I think the “framework” will be the same details and how things come about may be different due to the secondary characters.

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    288. kevin1989: Let me know. I wonder what he thinks about it. And is it connected to the WW treat?

      Yes! He connects a lot of the Long Night to House Dayne — I think you’ll really like the video 🙂

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    289. kevin1989,

      I forgot to add — I think Taylor is a credible source since he’s a director who worked with GRRM on the show based on his books. And there’s stuff people working on the show would know from GRRM that we, the audience, wouldn’t be privvy to until it happens. I don’t think Taylor would lie.

      Everything we’ve heard of GRRM’s plans for the upcoming books has come from sources telling us some of what GRRM has told them (D&D and directors) as GRRM has told them what they need to know for the show. And that’s probably the best we will know until the books come out because, no, GRRM won’t tell us future plot points directly — only people working on the show since they needed to know it to adapt unwritten storylines going forward. Kind of like JKR telling Alan Rickman her plans for Snape so he could work with that kind of future knowledge (since Snape would know this info in-universe).

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    290. Young Dragon,

      I totally agree with you that daenerys was always a tyrant. she had a revolutionist character which made her fierce and she didn’t think through her actions. she reminds me of all revolutionist leaders or young idealists who blame those who are in power for the problems of society and their main goal is just to take them down( without thinking clearly) and then they have no idea how to replace the system. again, she is a revolutionist rather than a reformist, and this is the core reason of the problems she has in essos ( in the book), and all her problems in the show.
      you can go and analyze all the revolutions of history( specially 20th century) and all the changes in a country which leads to a tyrant to take the power, and see how leaders of such revolutions act. I live in a country which has witnessed such revolutions( not one) and I have seen how people who take the power think or act. they kill their enemies who have any sort of connection with the fallen system. most of them are ordinary people who havenothing to do with the crimes of the system they serve( like the case of masters who were not guilty for crimes of other masters). but they kill them anyway because they want to establish a new order and for that purpose, they want to clear the system from those whom they don’t trust or are not sharing the same ideology( the ideology seeks blood). but no tyrant would ever kill all his/her people for no reason unless he/she is mentally mad and out of control. so, killing 1 million people in a city( your own people, not enemy) who surrender(and they didn’t even had to surrender because they were not her enemies) is not justifiable from political perspective. you can’t say that if we are sure that someone is tyrant, then if he/she kills his/her whole nation for no reason, it is normal. all i’m trying to say is that the only justification for dany’s last act was targaryen madness( like her father), not her being a tyrant and brutal leader, thirsty for power. and I didn’t see any proper development for this matter( we always knew she was mad king’s daughter but she had a lot of signs that she was different. for example, her brother from the beginning showed that he was like his father, mentally. but dany wasn’t and she had to go through a lot of thing to lose her mind and become mad queen, but she didn’t and if she did, writers failed to represent it properly). showing a mass murder with no reason, from political perspective is so complicated that you have spent a lot of time and dialogue to make it realistic for viewers. but madness is much easier. and D&D failed to show them both.

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    291. And I have to say that many time we have bias an our analysis called” black swan” bias which is defined as “is a metaphor that describes an event that comes as a surprise, has a major effect, and is often inappropriately rationalized after the fact with the benefit of hindsight”. something happens and surprises us, but we start to see prior thing in a was to justify what happened to show that in fact it wasn’t a surprise at all. it was all always there and we failed to see it. sometimes this bias is right and we should have seen it, but most of the time it is a bias effecting our analysis in a wrong way. the best example of this in GOT context is arya killing night king. after what happened some people started to find some justifications and foreshadowing for what happened, and that’s where they talk about god of death or blue eyes, etc. as for dany’s snap, majority of viewers( book readers, show lovers) failed to see this happening and I am one of them and will take this idea that those majority were write and D&D failed in many things including Dany’s snap.

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    292. Adrianacandle,

      Oh thanks, I’m watching these as I have breakfast. I’m so excited, I think we get it earlier than HBO, the BBC are showing it on Sundays. Maybe I’ll try out my 🙁 or 🙂 review system so I don’t spoil anything.

      Ruth Wilson seems perfect.

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    293. Adrianacandle,

      But it’s possible that Aegon is real and Rheagal (named after Rheagar) sense that. Or is it possible that it’s Jon and that Dany first goes north before she goes south like in the show? But I think Aegon would need to get a dragon, because else the Dance would be lame, and why introduce him at all then? So I think Rheagal will choose Aegon. But Euron will steal Vyserion, which I think is a girl. Damphair chapter he has a women in chains, I think that woman is in fact Vyserion. Bu how will he hold her is the question.

      True but I think the war against the death is already busy in the books, and they will lose the first part, the north. I think Dany comes in action when the WW get below the neck. How that will go I have no idea, but I think it will happen there. And the final battle will be held around the trident.

      Didn’t Jon need to read a book before he died? Didn’t Aemon or somebody else gave it? I think there will be a passage in it about “There always need to be a Stark in Winterfell”. I think the wall is not secure if there’s no Stark in Winterfell and the wall can fall.

      Yes I want to read that quote.

      True his assassination could work as a catalyst of him going south. But the reason why I’m so against the Jon takes back his home, because for me that’s pretty cliché, that works on tv, but for the books it feels not something that GRRM would do, the feel-good-disney plotline. Every battle in the books has no real good vs evil, except maybe the battle of Meereen, but even there is good and evil on both sides. But for me I rather hope Stannis takes back Winterfell. We feel good for it, be we found out he has forsaken the lord of light, and has sensed the real power of the old gods. Which we found out in Bran chapter that the 3-eyed raven is really working with the others. That would put a twist on the story.

      I also read a theory that LSH is the leader of the northern conspiracy, which make sense. Roose did kill her son. If she would be angry at Jaime how angry would she be at Roose.

      True, but the thing is, with the Hodor he stated clear out that Hold the door stays in the book, but the way Hodor gets the name hodor is different and in a different location than the show.
      But with Dany and Jon relationship he keeps quiet and avoiding the question if that will happen in the books. Why not say: That’s true, I told Taylor that.

      True but I think the framework is only “The wall comes down, they fight the others. They fight for the Iron Throne. Daenerys gets killed by Jon and Bran and Sansa king and queen, Jon north. Arya travelling. J=R+L.” But I think the rest will be all different. I think 70/80% of winds will not be in the show. Lot’s of more detail, lot’s of stoppoints that the show didn’t take. Lot’s of chapters are of characters that aren’t in the show. For dream I think at least 80% is not in the books. The war is with Aegon not with Cersei. Euron is in the mix in a different way. Theon is already dead (next Asha chapter is my guess). The White Walker doesn’t have the mothership plotline so something else will happen with that. The plotpoints are the same but that’s not what the books are filled with, it’s filled with character moments. The journey’s will be much different.

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    294. Jenny,

      Yes, please!!! I am really excited for HDM! And I’m eager to see Ruth Wilson as Mrs Coulter — Mrs Coulter is one of my favourite characters of anything 🙂

      I think this is one of my favourite quotes from the books and is a reason why I love her character so much:

      “But then the Church began to take an interest in Dust and in children, and something stirred in my heart, and I remembered that I was a mother and Lyra was my child.

      “And because there was a threat, I saved her from it. Three times now I’ve stepped in to pluck her out of danger. First, when the Oblation Board began its work: I went to Jordan College and I took her to live with me, in London, where I could keep her safe from the Board… or so I hoped. But she ran away.

      “The second time was at Bolvangar, when I found her just in time, under the… under the blade of the… My heart nearly stopped… It was what they, we, what I had done to other children, but when it was mine… Oh, you can’t conceive the horror of that moment, I hope you never suffer as I did then… But I got her free; I took her out; I saved her a second time.

      “But even as I did that, I still felt myself part of the Church, a servant, a loyal and faithful and devoted servant, because I was doing the Authority’s work.

      “And then I learned the witches’ prophecy. Lyra will somehow, sometime soon, be tempted, as Eve was, that’s what they say. What form this temptation will take, I don’t know, but she’s growing up, after all. It’s not hard to imagine. And now that the Church knows that, too, they’ll kill her. If it all depends on her, could they risk letting her live? Would they dare take the chance that she’d refuse this temptation, whatever it will be?

      “No, they’re bound to kill her. If they could, they’d go back to the Garden of Eden and kill Eve before she was tempted. Killing is not difficult for them; Calvin himself ordered the deaths of children; they’d kill her with pomp and ceremony and prayers and lamentations and psalms and hymns, but they would kill her. If she falls into their hands, she’s dead already.

      “So when I heard what the witch said, I saved my daughter for the third time. I took her to a place where I kept her safe, and there I was going to stay.”

      Mrs Coulter is the mother of evil (I LOVED that description from Ruth Wilson!) — until it comes to her own kid, who opposes everything she believes in.

      Love it! 🙂

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    295. kevin1989,

      Re:Stealing a dragon. I think it’s way more than just having Targaryen blood. I think something else will need to happen for Aegon to get a dragon. Nobody can steal a dragon (as Dany said, a dragon is not a slave). He’s going to need to convince Rhaegal or perhaps magic will be involved.

      I think Aegon was introduced as Dany’s rival for the throne. You know how Dany was all, “You have the love of Westeros,” to Jon? Except Jon… didn’t… have the love of Westeros. Westeros doesn’t even know him beyond (at most) being the bastard son of Ned Stark. And Westerosi view on bastards isn’t positive. Even the North doesn’t really love Jon. The wildlings love Jon and they aren’t Westerosi 😉 Dany has more of Westeros on her side than Jon did (not through love or fear but through negotiation).

      I think Aegon will have the love of Westeros, especially if Dorne believes he’s legit and he defeats Cersei. Which I think a few are predicting.

      Didn’t Jon need to read a book before he died? Didn’t Aemon or somebody else gave it?

      Aemon told Jon to read the Jade Compendium, which Jon did and found the passage detailing the legend of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa.

      Yes I want to read that quote.

      Will post it in the message after this!

      I think your theories about Stannis and LSH are interesting and good for me to mull over. I’m not really sure of anything right now other than what we’ve been told comes from GRRM via D&D/a show writer or director and that there will be a battle against the Others.

      But with Dany and Jon relationship he keeps quiet and avoiding the question if that will happen in the books. Why not say: That’s true, I told Taylor that.

      GRRM doesn’t really do that with most anything though that deals with future plot points. GRRM won’t even confirm if Jon is coming back or not or if he’s really dead.

      He doesn’t say/confirm anything to us directly about R+L=J, Bran becoming king, Sansa becoming queen, Jon killing Dany, Shireen burning, etc. Anything we know about future plot points comes from those associated with the show.

      In contrast, how Hodor gets his name doesn’t spoil anything specific for the books, just that he holds a door but GRRM also doesn’t detail how, when, or why (I don’t have that interview — mind if you link it?). Saying anything about Jon/Dany would not only be a huge spoiler for Jon and Dany’s storyline (also revealing that these two characters meet), it reveals whether or not Jon is alive-alive in future books (a detail GRRM won’t confirm either) rather than a mindless zombie, and it’d be way too specific. GRRM is vague at best about future plot points in interviews meant for the public.

      I’m not sure why GRRM would have to say, “Yes, I told Taylor that”? Taylor has the credentials and credibility. GRRM doesn’t say that about the vast majority of what we learn via the showrunners/writers/actors. If Taylor was lying, I think that would prompt GRRM to speak up because it’d be slander.

      True but I think the framework is only “The wall comes down, they fight the others. They fight for the Iron Throne. Daenerys gets killed by Jon and Bran and Sansa king and queen, Jon north. Arya travelling. J=R+L.” But I think the rest will be all different.

      I think the framework is what D&D/writers/actors/directors have told us has come from GRRM, Jon killing Dany, Bran becoming king, fight against the Others, Arya returning to Winterfell, Jaime returning to Cersei, and likely a rivalry for the throne.

      I think 70/80% of winds will not be in the show. Lot’s of more detail, lot’s of stoppoints that the show didn’t take. Lot’s of chapters are of characters that aren’t in the show. For dream I think at least 80% is not in the books. The war is with Aegon not with Cersei.

      I don’t know about the percentages but I can agree many details won’t be in the show because the books are so vast.

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    296. kevin1989,

      “Horpe and Massey aspire to your father’s seat. Massey wants the wildling princess too. He once served my brother Robert as squire and acquired his appetite for female flesh. Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it, but it is battle he lusts for. As a squire he dreamed of a white cloak, but Cersei Lannister spoke against him and Robert passed him over. Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing. Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?”

      Jon said, “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa.”

      “I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim.” The king set the cup aside. “You could bring the north to me. Your father’s bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark. Even Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. White Harbor would give me a ready source of supply and a secure base to which I could retreat at need. It is not too late to amend your folly, Snow. Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North.”

      How many times will he make me say it? “My sword is sworn to the Night’s Watch.”

      Stannis looked disgusted. “Your father was a stubborn man as well. Honor, he called it. Well, honor has its costs, as Lord Eddard learned to his sorrow. If it gives you any solace, Horpe and Massey are doomed to disappointment. I am more inclined to bestow Winterfell upon Arnolf Karstark. A good northman.”

      “A northman.” Better a Karstark than a Bolton or a Greyjoy, Jon told himself, but the thought gave him little solace. “The Karstarks abandoned my brother amongst his enemies.”

      “After your brother took off Lord Rickard’s head. Arnolf was a thousand leagues away. He has Stark blood in him. The blood of Winterfell.”

      “No more than half the other Houses of the north.”

      “Those other Houses have not declared for me.”

      “Arnolf Karstark is an old man with a crooked back, and even in his youth he was never the fighter Lord Rickard was. The rigors of the campaign may well kill him.”

      “He has heirs,” Stannis snapped. “Two sons, six grandsons, some daughters. If Robert had fathered trueborn sons, many who are dead might still be living.”

      “Your Grace would do better with Mors Crowfood.”

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