Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 6 “The Iron Throne” Video Recap Roundup

(25) Courtesy of HBO

Guys, I honestly can’t believe I’m saying this.  What an incredible ride this has been.  But, here it is, your final ever Game of Thrones Video Recap Roundup!

Firstly we have Westeros History with their Show Only Review (Book to Show Review is here)

HappyCool are here with special guests Erik ‘Blackfyre‘ Kluth, A Podcast of Ice and Fire’s Kyle Maddock and WotW’s very own Axechucker!

Got Academy discuss whether Game of Thrones was a historical, political or fantastical story in their final show review.

A final Thrones Talk from Collider Videos

A finale review from Smokescreen.

Rawrist’s Review/Reaction of that last episode.

The Young Turks have a Review Special…

We also have some awesome reaction videos like this on from the chaps at Blind Wave

And this one from The Normies (Part Two is here)

And one final Burlington Bar reaction series (Parts Two and Three)

If you need something to cheer you up now that the show is over, why not give Ozzy Man  a go?

There’s also a final Dem Thrones

Finally, one last Gay of Thrones from Funny or Die, featuring Celeste Barber, Tan France, Antoni Porowski, Karamo Brown, and Bobby Berk.

And that’s about it guys! Now our Video Recap Watch is over….

202 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Ozzy Man for the win this week … and for the entire season. Not only is he happy with how the show ended (YES!) and as hilarious as ever (#SoulCrushingStare) but in the final half of his review he also effectively responds to the criticisms surrounding the final season in a fair, thoughtful, and astutely analytical manner. He also gets emotional talking about what the show has meant to him over the years, and how it helped launch his career. Well-worth the 13 minutes and 41 seconds of your time. Cheers, mate!

      Love Dem Thrones as well. And I’m looking forward to watching the rest of this particular crop over the next week or so. In general this year, I feel like the Video reviews (at least the ones highlighted here – I’m not really interested in searching through the dregs of YouTube for the rest) and certain podcasts I listen to (special shout out to the crew at Casterly Talk) have blown the written reviews out of the water.

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    2. Hodor maybe!

      A great review from Ozzy Man as always. I think even he´s a bit sad that was his last one for GoT… Kudos to Ozzy Man 🙂

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    3. Dee Stark,

      Oh I’m so sorry. Talvikorppi inadvertently coined “ASNAWP” when she commented a while back she didn’t want Arya’s story to devolve into Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess fantasies. I and a few other commenters ran with it.

      Then, when Arya took out NK, I amended it to Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised, i.e., ASNAWPTWP.

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    4. Dee Stark,
      talvikorppi has been so pleased that we’ve spent about the last fifteen months referring to Arya by the acronym of what she wasn’t wanted to only be seen as. ASNAWP was just too perfect to pass over. 😀

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    5. Ozzy Man’s Review = A+.

      I think he’s absolutely right – episode 5 will probably age the best. Hell, I think this whole season will be looked at more fondly in 5 years and beyond.

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    6. Joseph Mobile:
      Ozzy Man’s Review = A+.

      I think he’s absolutely right – episode 5 will probably age the best.Hell, I think this whole season will be looked at more fondly in 5 years and beyond.

      Yeah. This was a great season. People wanted 5 episodes of marination between these episodes, and I really get it, but the vitriol doesnt make sense to me. No it wasnt perfect and they could have set the table a little more, but it really wasxa good season. They couldnt have had 15 different endings.

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    7. Jared,

      I mean. Wow. Ozzy’s review is like the worst in the Internet. The lack of constructive criticism and looking for excuses of this season’s inconsistencies is ridiculous.

      He actually loved episode 5. Damn.
      Not to mention he loved Arya killing the Night King simply because it utilized her character. As for a random fan, no problem. But he literally makes reviews.

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    8. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      Something I’ve legitimately been going back and forth on was the wisdom of not having the Battle of Winterfell occur at the end of season 7, instead of the 3rd episode of season 8. I do wonder if it would have been wiser to just have all of season 8 be about “For the Throne.”

      All of the marketing for season 7 was about the Night King and “Winter is Here.” Idk, maybe it would have made more sense, but maybe it would have been cramming way too much into a season, and the pacing would be at lightning speed.

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    9. CamelHoarder,

      I mean, wow. Ozzy had, like, an opinion. And he even admitted that other opinions are equally valid! And then he mentioned that how we all feel may be different as time passed, but this is how he felt for now.

      Just because someone doesn’t share your opinion doesn’t invalidate theirs. However, you lose a bit of cache yourself when you call it “like the worst in the internet.” Your hyperbole makes it clear you disagree, but can you constructively criticize what you hoped he would achieve with his review without resorting to platitudes?

      We’re a divided nation in so many ways right now, friendo. Is this really the fight you’re trying to pick?

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    10. Jared,

      I don’t know why I’ve resisted Ozzy Man’s recaps until now, but you just tipped my point (to butcher the phrase) and I’m so glad I took the dive. He’s fun and enthusiastic, and I appreciate his willingness to cover what he enjoyed without disqualifying differing opinions. Class act!

      A bonus: I now have a whole show’s worth of recaps waiting for my inevitable rewatch!

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    11. I’d love to see you do a survey of all your viewers… ask them to rate each of season 8 episodes. Here’s mine:
      Winterfell. 7.5
      A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. 8.5
      The Long Night. 8
      The Last of the Starks. 4
      The Bells. 6.5
      The Iron Throne. 4.5
      My overall impression of the final episode of how things ended was fine, but I have major problems with how they got there.
      Two major disappointments for me:
      1) not seeing the Stark girls reaction to hearing about Jon’s parentage… and realizing thier father never dishonored thier mother.
      2) I wish they had left Jamie/Brienne arc with him knighting her… what followed was so unnecessary to the story… he still could have gone back to Cercie without devastating Brienne that way he did.
      Lots of rushed and bewildering plot points and inconsistencies. ie Bran showing some humanity still by recognizing Theon’s upcoming sacrifice and thanking him. But not a word to Arya who saved his life????
      Tyrion was forgiven when he didnt tell Dany what he knew about Jon but told Varys. Seemed as much of a betrayal as Jon telling his sister but Dany let him off.
      Tyrion “on trial” for treason, and while in handcuffs decides the fate of kings. Not particularly well written.
      Not a word of protest from the other families when Sansa claimed the North as a independent kingdom… done of the others wanted the same?
      I understand why Bronn was given Highgarden… but why Master of Coin???? Bizarre. Arya and the white horse nice few minutes but why?… why was there no burning piles or bodies or people shuffling around as when Jon, Tyrion and Davos were surveying the destruction? Seemed like dream sequence with no explanation or back story.
      Lastly, I was not surprised in any way about Dany’s full blown Queen of the Ashes routine… it was foreshadowed for a long time. ie her reaction to her brother’s death. My problem was when she and Drogon were poised on that wall hearing the bells of surrender…. and thats when she decided to go nuclear? I wouldnt have been surprised if she just went on the rampage outright as she didnt seem very convinced when Tyrion was trying to get her to agree about surrender.. but why then, after hearing the bells of surrender?… not enough compelling reason for that moment I thought = poor writing. Basically the whole season was TOO RUSHED and it showed.

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    12. I just ran across this. Emergency Awesome did this video on an alternative ending. He doesn’t say where he got all the info, but at one point he is quoting Ian Glenn about his story arc. Apparently this information will be included as extra info for the DVD/BluRay? I don’t know, I’ll post it here for your amusement.

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    13. Ten Bears:
      Dee Stark,

      Oh I’m so sorry. Talvikorppi inadvertently coined “ASNAWP” when she commented a while back she didn’t want Arya’s story to devolve into Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess fantasies. I and a few other commenters ran with it.

      Then, when Arya took out NK, I amended it to Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised, i.e., ASNAWPTWP.

      So, if one has a t-shirt made, with “ASNAWPTWP” emblazoned on it, to say, be worn at a Con, would a royalty need to be paid to talvikorppi?

      Asking for a friend.

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    14. LL of Darkwater,

      I’ve said it before, no need to pay royalties to me… Though I might be doing myself out of an income here… ;-D

      I’m very happy with Arya’s ending. She turned away from revenge, fully regained her humanity and went off to do her own thing.

      Though… if she finds new lands… is it good for the people who already live there? It could lead to colonialism and all kinds of horrifying things happening. 🙁 I’m not saying Arya woud exploit new lands and peoples but those who come after her probably would.

      Anyway, back on topic. So far I’ve only watched Ozzy Man’s and History of Westeros recap/review (always my favourites), looking forward to watching others over this rainy weekend. Thanks for collecting all of these for us!

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    15. onefromaway:
      I just ran across this. Emergency Awesome did this video on an alternative ending.He doesn’t say where he got all the info, but at one point he is quoting Ian Glenn about his story arc. Apparently this information will be included as extra info for the DVD/BluRay?I don’t know, I’ll post it here for your amusement.

      It’s been out for a bit, I think originally an EW article (who else). Although Iain would have made it 100x more emotional because of their bond, I agree with him that it ended for him how it should have. 😊
      https://www.elitedaily.com/p/this-alternative-game-of-thrones-ending-had-jorah-mormont-surviving-until-the-end-17917314

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    16. CamelHoarder:
      Jared,

      I mean. Wow. Ozzy’s review is like the worst in the Internet. The lack of constructive criticism and looking for excuses of this season’s inconsistencies is ridiculous.

      He actually loved episode 5. Damn.
      Not to mention he loved Arya killing the Night King simply because it utilized her character. As for a random fan, no problem. But he literally makes reviews.

      I quite enjoyed Ozzy’s review(s) this season. I didn’t agree with him about the finale, but I appreciated how he expressed his own reaction. It was an honest review.

      As the week has gone by, I feel more and more critical. It’s good to hear some positive reviews out there so I don’t drown in my own criticism! From watching some of these video reviews, it’s more obvious to me just how much D&D wanted to mirror LOTR with the Iron Throne being “Precious”. I supposed that’s also GRRM’s idea as well. I just don’t think they developed the IT = Precious theme as much as it needed to be to make it work. They were saying the quest for the IT and finally getting possession of it drove Dany nuts with power. Nice idea, but it felt forced, and that’s just being honest with my own feelings.

      I would have loved to have seen Arya’s FM skills used more but I have mixed feelings about it. Arya used them with the Frey’s and then never used them again. There are some practical problems with FM skills. They have to use a different actor! So on the positive side, I did enjoy seeing Maisie the whole time instead of whoever actor’s face she would have worn. But I thought after Arya killed the NK, it seemed like D&D thought that was enough of her superhero scenes. The rest were trying to humanize her more and having us walk in her shoes so we could feel the horror of being on the ground during a bombing attack. I did love how she just appeared next to Jon getting past all of the guards (on the steps of the Red Keep). I think it’s going to be awhile before I let go all of my wants and hopes for what didn’t happen. But I will also appreciate Sapochnik’s direction in episode 5 and the visually spectacular scenes he created (as well as the unbelievable KL set that was created and destroyed). The slow mo Arya montage with raining ashes and the white horse was truly an incredible visual accomplishment. So I do see plenty of positives.

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    17. Pigeon: Not only was this hilarious, but I love how they did it in such an upbeat manner.

      “I forgot the horse, Arya forgot the horse, it was a very forgettable horse.”

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    18. OK, my long reply to Tron seems to have disappeared in the internet void. I’ll try again.

      I would have loved to have seen Arya’s FM skills used more but I have mixed feelings about it. Arya used them with the Frey’s and then never used them again….

      … after Arya killed the NK, it seemed like D&D thought that was enough of her superhero scenes. The rest were trying to humanize her more and having us walk in her shoes so we could feel the horror of being on the ground during a bombing attack.

      This is why I coined the phrase Arya super ninja assassin warrior princess, ASNAWP for short. I did not want her to be only that, and I was afraid the show would flatten her character to just this one-dimensional superhero. (I’m not a big fan of superheroes, I like chracters who feel like real people.)

      I wanted her to pull through her horrific, traumatic experiences, her anger, hatred, desire for revenge, and all the brain washing at the House of Black and White with her identity (Arya Stark of Winterfell) and her humanity intact, or recovering.

      I’m glad Arya didn’t use the FM face trick after her mass murder of the Frey men (BTW, Arya “only” killed the husbands and fathers… aren’t the “spared” wives and children feel resentful, even revengeful? Like Arya was? Especially the boys who grow to men…).

      Anyway, soon after the Frey mass murder Arya met Hot Pie, who told her Jon was KitN, and that was her first step in turning away from hatred and revenge, towards family and humanity. Using a face after that would’ve been regressive to her character (however cool that trick might seem to us fans).

      I loved how Arya gained back her humanity. It didn’t just happen, she struggled with it, two steps forward, one step backward, but ultimately it was her own decision. Sandor’s final words and seeing Dany’s slaughter of KL(* were just the final pieces.

      She took her fate, her life, in her own hands. She can now go forward, doing her own thing. Not as some flat superhero super ninja assassin warrior princes (a fantasy cliche) but as a young woman who has experienced horriffic things and learned a lot, has matured and let go of her (partly childish) hatreds, found a good way for herself to be. With full support from her most loved ones. It’s a beautiful ending. (And I’m sure Lord Gendry Baratheon will get over her and marry some spirited young Fossoway lady or some such.)

      *) Aziz and Sean at History of Westeros brought up an interesting idea. Dany’s arc was also about revenge, instilled into her by Viserys: take back what was taken from us with fire and blood, and punish all who took it from us. From S1. Just well hidden by the things she suffered and the good things she did (GRRM probably chose freeing slaves as the ultimate good thing to hide her despotic ways.) All through her arc, Dany never lost sight of her ultimate goal: take back what was taken from us and punish those who did and would deny her. In this light, Dany ultimately could not let go of revenge, Arya could. It’s something interesting to think about.

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    19. Tron79: I would have loved to have seen Arya’s FM skills used more but I have mixed feelings about it. Arya used them with the Frey’s and then never used them again. There are some practical problems with FM skills. They have to use a different actor! So on the positive side, I did enjoy seeing Maisie the whole time instead of whoever actor’s face she would have worn………

      As an “Arya is my favorite” person I can’t say that I wasn’t happy with her final season and ending. Of course I would have loved even more whether it included face stuff or just more sweet fighting skills, even saving Sandor possibly. That’s probably being a bit selfish though. She had some of the best moments of the season, maybe most of them, and yet we still got to follow her through King’s Landing fallout when they could have kept the focus all on Jon. The ONLY thing I wanted different about her ending was a scene with Gendry where he tells her he doesn’t want to be a Lord any more than she wants to be a Lady. She then asks him to go west with her and he’s on the ship in her last scene. The way it was felt too lonely for her, especially after it seems she finally let go of her hate and vengeful thoughts. (I do wonder who the men were that joined her crew. Were they men of the North that also desired adventure or did she find some actual sailors to work for her?)

      Even without Gendry with her I think Arya’s future just seemed like it would be the most exciting. All the rest feel like they’re in for a lot of mundane activity and/or pretty predictable futures. I suppose that’s the reason why things were popping up earlier in the week about fans wanting an Arya spinoff. HBO says that’s not going to happen and it doesn’t seem like Maisie is up for it any time soon. I don’t think it would work very well with a replacement Arya. Maisie IS ASNAWP! Maybe some day. The possibilities with that character and her skills are numerous.

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    20. Clob: The ONLY thing I wanted different about her ending was a scene with Gendry where he tells her he doesn’t want to be a Lord any more than she wants to be a Lady.She then asks him to go west with her ….

      Gendry: I’m REALLY good at rowing.
      Arya: You’re on!

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    21. Clob,

      To get a bit more serious, as far as we saw, Gendry wasn’t in KL for the massacre. And he totally owes his legitimation and elevation to a lordship to Dany.

      The last episode was so all over the place after Jon killed Dany. The “Great Council” was… uhm… Like, Yara and the Dornish guy were still pro-Dany, and Gendry should’ve been (she made him a lord and he didn’t see first hand what she did) but he never said a word, until his “aye” for Bran.

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    22. Mary Tossell,

      but why Master of Coin

      The Master of Coin started as a small and insignificant man that became friend and confidant of a member of a proud and powerful house. Through his machinations he eventually rose up to become the Lord of his own and brand new house, gaining recognition from others.

      He loves brothel’s, money, and has always had dubious ethics. In particular he is known for switching sides whenever it suits his interests, at times playing for both sides in a conflict until there is a clear expected winner, at which point, he always sticks with the side he thinks will win until something better comes around.

      Who am I describing?
      LF or Bronn?

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    23. Clob,

      talvikorppi,

      I’m with both of you. I really thought that Gendry was going to show up but that most likely would have been attacked as too much fanservice. Too bad!
      Arya’s tears as Jon was leaving was heartsong for me. It showed how much her humanity had not disappeared and showed how strong their bond always was.

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    24. Solar,

      Yeah, but Bronn is such a tired fan favourite.

      All I thought during the Small Council scene was please, please, will somebody please take Lord Smartarse of Fancy titles to a brothel where he gets the pox and dies soon.

      Ser Brienne had the right of it, ships are more important than brothels.

      The whole Small Council scene was meant to show us life goes on.

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    25. Clob,

      I loved every S8 Arya scene. At the risk of sounding greedy, I wouldn’t have minded an entire episode devoted to Sandor and Arya traveling from WF to KL after this brief scene in S8e4 of the two of them riding away from the festivities at WF:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wb6w177bGk

      As for an Arya spinoff: I heard that this was one of the sequels or prequels under consideration. Frankly, Maisie Williams could probably use some time away from GoT after spending all of her childhood and young adulthood as Arya. Plus, someone (e.g., a new, inspired team of writers) would have to put in the time and effort to create some fantastic stories for her character.

      And of course, only Maisie Williams could play Arya. The fandom would not accept anyone else. (One of the reasons the sequel to “The Silence of the Lambs” sucked is because Jodie Foster didn’t reprise her role as Clarice Starling. It just wasn’t the same with Julianne Moore in the role.)

      In a few years, who knows if she’ll be invigorated enough to revisit the role? I guess it depends on her aspirations and career trajectory. I really thought she showed tremendous range in S8. Let’s see if Hollywood takes notice.

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    26. MotherofWolves:
      Clob,

      talvikorppi,

      Arya’s tears as Jon was leaving was heartsong for me. It showed how much her humanity had not disappeared and showed how strong their bond always was.

      I think Arya’s humanity had dissappeared (such as when she mass murdered all Frey fathers, uncles etc.) and she slowly gained it back. Arya’s tears as Jon was leaving… or she was leaving. Beautiful and just as it should be.

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    27. Ten Bears,

      Aah, Ten Bears, and Clob. You know no-one can be Arya like Maisie Williams. Any “spinoff” with a new actrors playing Arya and Sandor… You see where this is going, right?

      Sometimes there are wonderful stories, wonderful moments. And then they end.
      It’s time to put them to bed. To appreciate what we got.

      If we ever get GRRM’s version of S7/S8, the ending will be the same (sorry, Dany fans) but it might be arrived at differently. Fair enough, I can live with that.

      It’s been so wonderful to be part of this fandom. Even creating an acronym, hahaha!

      ASNAWP is an abiguos thing. For me, fighting, killing glorified, never sat well for me.

      I don’t mind her learning all these skills but I worry what exactly is she going to use them on. Stupid (even childish) personal revenge? It’s a source of worry about her humanity. I like Arya, I don’t like cliche’ed fantasy super ninja assassin warrior princesses, and I’m so glad Arya didn’t end up that way. She ended up more multi-faceted, doing her own thing.

      Yaaaay! Sailing!! (Says I, a keen sailor. 😀 )

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    28. talvikorppi: Sometimes there are wonderful stories, wonderful moments. And then they end.
      It’s time to put them to bed. To appreciate what we got.

      +1

      Please don’t let the Lord of Light bring GoT back. Every time it comes back, it’ll be a bit less of itself. Pieces get chipped away.

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    29. Mr Derp: +1

      Please don’t let the Lord of Light bring GoT back.Every time it comes back, it’ll be a bit less of itself.Pieces get chipped away.

      +1

      Exactly. We have to let go.

      We need to go forth to new challenges, new things.

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    30. Mary Tossell,

      Winterfell:
      Knight of the seven Kingdoms: 10
      The Long Night: 9,5
      The Last of the Starks: 6,5/7: Still a solid episode the first part was brilliant, and the ending. Had one scene that could have handled better. But this episode should have been 3 episodes. One WF, One Dany south with Missandei death + some scenes extra with people in WF. And a scene between episode 4 and 5 what we missed those 2 weeks. So it rated lower.
      The Bells: 9,8, the problem lies before the episode so not going to put a negative spin on this one. The episode was amazing, excited and emotional rollercoaster. The only episode of the whole saga where I just moved to the front of my seat. And it made me cry for Cersei’s death so that made it for me clear the episode is brilliant.
      The Iron Throne: 8,0 (With some scenes more it could have had a 9+ rating

      Just a feeling how I feel now with the episodes. Lot’s can change once I rewatch the whole saga. And the first big change is over 2 weeks when I bingewatch season 8.

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    31. Mary Tossell,

      (If it’s in .5 increments)

      Winterfell – 9
      A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms – 9.5
      The Long Night – 10
      The Last of the Starks – 9.5
      The Bells – 10
      The Iron Throne – 9.5

      As the end of the Third Act of this 73-hour long-form film (and accordingly efficiently paced), I honestly found Season 8 to be the best of them all.

      Guess I’m easily pleased.

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    32. Young Dragon,

      I think I’m a bit more critical but I would say 8 for winter fell, a 8.5 for knight of the seven kingdoms, 9 for the long knight, a 6.5 for last of the Starks felt to much like 2 eps shoved together, 9 for the bells, I felt this could have been higher if they had two long eps between the long knight and this one, the iron throne I give it a 7.5. Could have been higher if the Dragon pit scene was done better and I felt this could have been two eps. I think overall this season is an 8. Really should have had two more episodes to let stuff breath a bit.

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    33. Winterfell: 8
      A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: 10
      The Long Night: 10
      The Last of the Starks: 5. Hated the second half, specially from the moment were Rhaegal dies onwards.
      The Bells: 6. The mistakes from the previous episode bleed into this one.
      The Iron Throne: 7. Same as the last episode, although I did like how they closed the stories of Arya, Brienne, Sansa and Jon.

      My overall feelings toward this season are mixed, and it definetly affects how I see season 7 now (which I used to defend btw), and my feelings toward Jaime and Dany’s stories through the series have been somewhat tainted. On the more positive side, I’m dying to rewatch Sansa and Arya’s journey from the beginning now, because I felt this season did justice to their respective stories.

      If I could sum up my experience watching this last two seasons it would be with the phrase “Wasted potential”.

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    34. Mary Tossell,

      I’m of a generation who’s used to school grades 4 (fail) to 10 (excellent) in my country. That sets the metrics.

      801 Winterfell: 8
      802 A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: 10
      803 The Long Night: 7
      804 The Last of the Starks: 9
      805 The Bells: 9.5
      806 The Iron Throne 8.5

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    35. Mary Tossell,

      Winterfell. 8 – I loved this episode, all of the reunions I thought were really beautiful.

      A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. 10 – So much to love in this slow but character-focused episode.

      The Long Night. 7.5 – This was a phenomenal achievement in TV history. I would have given it a 10 except that a) too many characters survived who shouldn’t have, b) Jon yelling at Viseryion didn’t mean anything, and c) I thought this battle, or at least fighting the NK, should have lasted more than one episode. I did not mind Arya being the one to take out the NK though.

      The Last of the Starks. 5.5 – This is where the season really started to fall apart for me. Characters started turning into caricatures. Jaime being the obvious one, but Arya unceremoniously dumping Gendry ( not saying she should have accepted the proposal, but dang she was cold), Dany begging Jon to deny his own past, even Tormund acting foolish. And Jon dismissing Ghost with barely a backward’s glance. Rhaegal getting picked so easily out of the sky etc. Too much nonsense.

      The Bells. 5. Tyrion turning on Varys (why not give him a head start if you’re going to snitch? He did save your life a few years ago). Jaime getting caught was dumb, Tyrion letting him out was dumb. Cercei/Qyburn not having a backup plan. And Dany mass murdering children because she’s unhappy. I only gave this a 5 because Cleganebowl was awesome, and Arya’s scenes in the rubble were insanely great.

      The Iron Throne. 3. For me, this was a hot mess from start to finish. When Jon kissed Dany, I thought I was watching a bad soap opera with the My Queening. The Council was a joke. The only reason I gave it a 3 was because I did like where the characters ended up, especially Jon’s little smile as he headed north of the wall. Except Bran. Where we left it, he’s either evil or clueless, neither of which were ever in his character arc.

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    36. Grayven Reyne,

      LOL! That was funny! Very clever too. One of my favorites was the bit about hitting the wrong key on his computer and all the great lines in the script for Jon Snow changed to “She’s my Queen” ! I loved the season but there are legitimate criticisms of it and he hit upon many in a humorous way. I recognize “Screen Rant” but this is the first time I’ve watched anything by him, I’ll check out some more. Thanks for posting this!

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    37. Mr Derp: +1

      Please don’t let the Lord of Light bring GoT back.Every time it comes back, it’ll be a bit less of itself.Pieces get chipped away.

      “Are you my mother, Mr. Derp?”

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    38. talvikorppi,

      I do hear what you’re saying. I have mixed feelings. First I thought Maisie was incredible this year. As a huge Arya fan, I was thrilled she was in every episode. I am one that waits on edge for the credits to unfold and I literally cheer when she’s in there! I do love other characters as well, but Arya has always been my favorite. I grew to love watching Jaime’s arc in particular the last few years. I do agree that it was great to see her regain her humanity and the meetup with Hot Pie at the Crossroads was literally the crossroads for her arc.

      I think some of my issues are with how there was little follow up on various mysteries. I was hoping Jaqen would pop up again and have some reason why he recruited her (If his reason was that she was TPTWP then it would have been great to see him popup to help mentor her a little more). I also feel a bit used because D&D decided to use the fan’s devotion to Arya so we would care what happened as we followed her on the ground during the fire bombing. I don’t think those scenes really moved her arc forward much. They were there mainly for us to feel like we were on the ground during the bombing because D&D knew how much the fandom loved Arya. They didn’t put her there for a character purpose. I do have a couple exceptions though. Her scene with Sandor was amazing, but that scene more had to do with her kill Cersei arc (and that was before we followed her through KL). When Arya called him Sandor, I just about lost it!!! During the bombing, I thought it was a move forward for her character when she tried to help the mother and daughter instead of just doing what she needed to do to survive herself. And I suppose seeing the destruction helped her realize even more that Dany had to go. I just had a little bad taste when D&D explained in the inside the episode that the main reason they decided to follow Arya was so the audience would feel something!!! That being said, her scenes in KL were some of the most visually spectacular scenes in the entire series, and Maisie’s performance was stunning to watch. She emotes so well without saying anything.

      Ending on a lighter note…so who were those Stark sailors who agreed to go West of Westeros with Arya??? That’s dedication!! And I didn’t realize the Starks had many sailors! It was awesome though to see the Stark sail and carvings on the ship, and Arya did have a happy ending which on this show is a blessing! I would hope she would go on shore leave back to Winterfell to see Sansa eventually or maybe take a balloon ride north to find Jon in my fandom dreams.

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    39. Stew,

      Fair scores. I really liked The Last of the Starks and thought the transition between the two wars was handled really well. My highlights were the funeral, the feast, the Stark family meeting, Danerys pleading with Jon to keep his parentage secret, Tyrion and Varys’s conversation, and Missandei’s execution. This episode reminded me of Eastwatch from last season where they packed in a lot of plot into one episode. I understand the criticism that the episode felt like two, but it worked for me in ways that Eastwatch didn’t. I think the extra twenty minutes helped a lot.

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    40. Tron79: I was hoping Jaqen would pop up again and have some reason why he recruited her (If his reason was that she was TPTWP then it would have been great to see him popup to help mentor her a little more).

      I was so, so hoping for a Jaqen cameo! Especially because Tom Wlaschiha was near the Dragonpit filming location at the time of (possible) shooting: https://www.elitedaily.com/p/is-jaqen-hghar-in-game-of-thrones-season-8-he-was-seen-near-filming-im-screaming-9041032

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    41. Clob,

      Well, I’ve completed my filleting of S8 to shear away everything but Arya and Sandor scenes. Based on that abridged version: 9.75 out of 10 grade for S8.

      Although of course I want(ed) longer scenes (who didn’t?), I give A+ to the following scenes:
      – Sandor: “I fought for you, didn’t I?
      – Arya “intercepts” Sandor and they both ride away from WF together.
      – Arya & Gendry scenes (except last one)
      – In S8e3, Arya saving Sandor with well-placed arrow; fighting wights with her customized weapon; and fending off wights with Beric and Sandor, leading to Mel’s pep talk. (For the sake of argument, I’m excluding the out-of-nowhere Arya kills NK segment.)
      – S8e5, their final scene. After multiple rewatches, I still get misty-eyed at 0:50 to the end. His voice… her look… her final words to him. 😢

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    42. Tron79,

      I think Arya’s journey through the burning devastation of KL was the final step. It was important.

      I loved how the Captain of S/S Direwolf had ditched her Ned cosplay hairdo and sported a more feminine bun. She doesn’t need to try to be a boy/man, she can be a woman and still do her thing.

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    43. Tron79,

      “I also feel a bit used because D&D decided to use the fan’s devotion to Arya so we would care what happened as we followed her on the ground during the fire bombing. I don’t think those scenes really moved her arc forward much. They were there mainly for us to feel like we were on the ground during the bombing because D&D knew how much the fandom loved Arya….”

      “….I just had a little bad taste when D&D explained in the inside the episode that the main reason they decided to follow Arya was so the audience would feel something!!”

      _____
      I don’t disagree with you. Still, I can’t help but remember the lyrics to an old song (I forget by whom): “Give the people, what they want.”

      Also, as you observed. having the camera follow Arya means the showrunners wanted the audience to “feel something,” I think that’s a testament to Maisie Williams and her ability to connect with the audience. (For me, since the very first episode, Arya has been the “lens” through which I’ve watched events unfold.)

      If I’m going to be emotionally manipulated by the showrunners, at least it was by using a character I cared about.

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    44. D&D should’ve written their own ending and ignore GRRM”s endgame. Every controversial aspect of S8 is there because they are trying to do ending that even original author didn’t know how to achieve.

      Fan service ending wouldn’t damage show’s reputation. Just do what they did with S6. Give fans what they want and move on.

      NK as final enemy, Cersei burning KL, Daenerys killed like Tony Stark, Jon on the Throne, Bran as NK, Jaime killing Cersei.

      The show is just too popular for this ending and GA rejected it because they followed GRRM’s plans. If there was organic way to arrive to this endgame the books would’ve been finished.

      Do conventional ending. Show is too big for anything else.

      But now it’s too late.

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    45. Also, about ditching Ned cosplay hairdos. Jon let his lovely locks flow free.

      Maybe that manbun was tight as duty.

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    46. talvikorppi:
      Tron79,

      I think Arya’s journey through the burning devastation of KL was the final step. It was important.

      I loved how the Captain of S/S Direwolf had ditched her Ned cosplay hairdo and sported a more feminine bun. She doesn’t need to try to be a boy/man, she can be a woman and still do her thing.

      Thanks for the reminder. I didn’t watch that scene carefully the first time. Now I need clear screen shots of the direwolf engraved in the ship’s prow; the direwolf sigil sail; and “the Captain of the S.S. Direwolf” herself.

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    47. Tron79,

      “Ending on a lighter note…so who were those Stark sailors who agreed to go West of Westeros with Arya??? That’s dedication!! And I didn’t realize the Starks had many sailors!”

      _____
      Maybe the crew was courtesy of Lord Manderly @ White Harbor? Don’t they have lots of ships (and therefore sailors)? It’s the least he could do if he realized that it was Arya Stark who “avenged the Red Wedding”, and certainly as a show of gratitude for saving the North and the world by sticking it to (as Sandor called him) “that horned f*cker” aka NK.

      Plus, I’d bet House Manderly sailors would be clamoring for the opportunity to explore the unknown frontier with the Heroine of the Battle for the Dawn.

      That’s my “headcanon” for how Arya got a customized, fully-staffed ship.

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    48. talvikorppi:
      Tron79,

      I think Arya’s journey through the burning devastation of KL was the final step. It was important.

      I loved how the Captain of S/S Direwolf had ditched her Ned cosplay hairdo and sported a more feminine bun. She doesn’t need to try to be a boy/man, she can be a woman and still do her thing.

      I for one just about passed out when they showed Arya looking dead with all the ash all over her. Maisie said in an interview that no one would believe she was actually dead (referring to that shot) but I thought for a few minutes it may have happened! Sapochnik really out did himself with some of those visuals. That’s partly why I was upset with D&D for putting us through that with Arya!!! Anyway, I do see what you’re saying that there were elements that were important for her arc, so I will go with that. It sits alot better than D&D being the Lord of Light and manipulating things.

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    49. Tron79,

      Also, don’t listen to what D&D say in some after the episode interviews. They’re just being silly and trying to not spoil future episodes most of the time.

      The show should stand on its own merits without extraneous explanations. Just watch the episode and draw your own conclusions.

      Arya’s crew? Ten Bears, Clob… 😀

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    50. Tron79,
      talvikorppi,
      Ten Bears,
      Clob,

      Argh! I’m late to this thread, and see all this amazing discussion on ASNAWP! 🙂

      Anyway, I think the sequence of Arya escaping King’s Landing is very important for her story progression. D&D don’t always explain everything in the BtS segments, or explain only very pragmatic things. That sequence is very much about Arya witnessing death up close in a way she never has before. It’s also about her fighting for life after Sandor tells her to turn away from vengeance. I’ve said before that the final sequence is a symbolic rebirth of her rejecting the darkness and choosing life and hope, with the white horse symbolizing her salvation. I absolutely love the way they did that (I honestly couldn’t care less where the horse came from)!

      The question of Gendry’s loyalty to Dany is an interesting one. I presume that since he cast a vote of “aye” for Bran that he did not remain loyal to her after what she did, but I suppose it’s possible. If, by some chance, he did remain loyal to her Arya would have been furious with him (putting a nail in the coffin of Gendrya for good).

      I would have liked more goodbye scenes between Arya/Gendry and Arya/Sansa/Bran.. but I understand that that could get tedious and drawn out. Arya’s goodbye with Jon was the most important and was really beautiful.

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    51. Argh! I’m late to this thread, and see all this amazing discussion on ASNAWP! 🙂

      Anyway, I think the sequence of Arya escaping King’s Landing is very important for her story progression. D&D don’t always explain everything in the BtS segments, or explain only very pragmatic things. That sequence is very much about Arya witnessing death up close in a way she never has before. It’s also about her fighting for life after Sandor tells her to turn away from vengeance. I’ve said before that the final sequence is a symbolic rebirth of her rejecting the darkness and choosing life and hope, with the white horse symbolizing her salvation. I absolutely love the way they did that (I honestly couldn’t care less where the horse came from)!

      The question of Gendry’s loyalty to Dany is an interesting one. I presume that since he cast a vote of “aye” for Bran that he did not remain loyal to her after what she did, but I suppose it’s possible. If, by some chance, he did remain loyal to her Arya would have been furious with him (putting a nail in the coffin of Gendrya for good).

      I would have liked more goodbye scenes between Arya/Gendry and Arya/Sansa/Bran.. but I understand that that could get tedious and drawn out. Arya’s goodbye with Jon was the most important and was really beautiful.

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    52. mau,

      I’m glad they didn’t go with the fan service ending, but I agree with your point. Most viewers would have preferred a traditional ending to the story. I like that they and Martin take risks. It worked out well enough for me.

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    53. talvikorppi,

      I never listen to their explanations. The story should stand on its own, and I arrive at my own conclusions based on what’s presented in the show.

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    54. Young Dragon:
      talvikorppi,

      I never listen to their explanations. The story should stand on its own, and I arrive at my own conclusions based on what’s presented in the show.

      It was interesting they didn’t have an inside the episode (or revealed) for the finale. I’m guessing they are saving all that for Sunday’s documentary. I can say the one inside the episode that really made the episode better for me was “beyond the wall” when I saw how they made the lake!! That was incredible, and I just appreciated the work that went into it. To your point the “revealed” episodes are more interesting to me than the “inside the episodes”. Perhaps that Lake one was a “revealed”? Most of the behind the scenes stuff is shown on the “revealed”.

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    55. Young Dragon,

      Those first 40 minutes were classic GOT and I love all of it up to the Rhaegal scene. Than from there it felt really rushed. That was my main Issue. If the episode ended with everyone departing the episode would be a 9.5. But overall I think the show hit very major plot point and in the end the wolves came and it’s the hour of the wolves. Also some of the scores that are like 4s and 5s from some are insane. This isn’t a CW or a episode of the waking dead. There is more depth and more man hours that go into filming.

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    56. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      I wouldnt rate any of the episodes below 7. They all had fantastic acting, great lines, the cinematography and production were all on point.

      Jon kissed Dany because he had to kill her. It was dramatic and tragic. Nothing sappy about it to me.

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    57. talvikorppi,

      Arya’s journey through the city was like rebirth for her. She was fighting her way back motivated by the hope Sandor gave her.
      Ten Bears,

      I loved Arya the minute I read about her and felt the same about Maisie. Ditto about Jon and Kit.

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    58. Stew,

      I actually thought this was one of the better paced seasons, though I know I’m in the minority on that one. I think its because this season was a culmination of the seasons that came before it. The White Walker threat had already been built up, and the tension was already there. It’s the same with the conflict between Danerys and Cersei. I was surprised how effortlessly they were able to transition from one war to another, and I think the fact that the tension between the two queens was already there from season seven helped a great deal.

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    59. mau,

      Personally I would have hated if the show went that way. I’m glad that we got what we got. For me much more interesting.

      And another problem. If the nk was endgame the show would have needed a budget that was double as it was now.

      I think the biggest problem is that we all expected our own ending. The one wants more drama, the other more dragons, the other more fantasy etc. And we cling to that and that is what we want and everything else is shit. So no matter what they went with the ending would have been hated by a large amount of people.

      And another problem is that everything needs to be spoonfed. I heard strange answers why the final was bad. I heard from someone that they didn’t answer some questions and 2 were:
      – they didn’t tell us which kingdoms belong to the 6 kingdoms.
      – what happen to the baratheons?

      I though really? Did you watch the show at all? Many of these complains are also in this category.

      Oh and the complained that D&D wanted to move on to the next big project for big bucks. Even when they forget that they got that deal last year and the script (or at least the basics of what was going to happen in each episode) was written when season 7 was written. So 2016.

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    60. My biggest issue with the ending is the resolution of Jon’s storyline and it doesn’t have to do with personal sympathy (I can understand people’s outrage at Dany’s sudden turn, but I get that it’s plausible based on the book and the show material). I rather feel it’s lazy and sloppy writing to dismiss Jon’s parental background/identity like that, when they’ve hyped it for 3 seasons. It was never mentioned again after Dany’s death and was totally swept under at the last great council, despite there being 5 people present who know that he is actually the rightful heir. Greyworm’s and the Unsullied presence is not an explanation for that – when Tyrion can talk himself out of his dire situation and walk away as Hand of the King, I just don’t believe they couldn’t have had a short scene where Jon’s fate and actual identity is discussed – and maybe afterwards dismissed, IF they so insist on ‘breaking the wheel’ of inherited rulership and chose Bran who – like Jon – doesn’t want power… but somehow in Bran’s case, this reluctance qualifies him as the perfect king? I don’t get it.

      It’s so weird that the whole R+L=J story (wasn’t the meaning of the “Song of Ice and Fire” implicitly revolving around that?) doesn’t matter at all in the end – except for driving Dany mad with paranoia and effectively separating the pair. Jon is the last Targaryen now, but it doesn’t matter at all that he’ll die without a family or children of his own out there in the far North? I thought GRRM cared more about that ancient family’s storyline/future, which is why I expect a slightly different ending in the books, or at least a better explanation of the final result.

      I know the show’s ending is probably the happiest Jon could hope for, but I still feel cheated, it’s like getting a consolation prize and being told to be content with it, because that’s “what you wanted anyway”. I feel his character has been cheated: forced to make the greatest sacrifice and take the burden of life-long guilt and trauma for having killed his true love – and after all he did to save humanity with her help, he is expelled from the same kingdoms he saved (and partly ruled, and should rule by his birthright, quoting Sam), only to be forgotten in the far North.

      Like the Halfhand had said: The Southern folks don’t care that they can live their comfortable lives just because some nameless bastard in the Northern wilderness gave his life for them. He will be an unsung hero, only remembered as a bastard, a Queenslayer, maybe even an oathbreaker who had to be punished for a hideous crime. It leaves a very bitter aftertaste.

      I also don’t get Sam this season, who won’t even mention Jon as a candidate after urging him to become the king he said Jon was meant to be. Jon could have turned down such an offer and went up North eventually – it would have been the only choice he was allowed to make freely, because the ‘choice’ of taking out Dany, as Tyrion suggested, wasn’t a choice at all, but a horrible duty he was burdened with to safe his family and people. However, having him leave as an exiled criminal (and saying his sisters weren’t happy about it but it couldn’t be helped) is unconvincing. Maybe this sort of injustice is supposed to be realistic and kind of ‘subverting’ the heroic narrative? As if Jon isn’t punished enough with the aftermath of betraying Daenerys, he will punish himself harder than anyone.

      I’ve always defended the show and S8 and tried to see the positive side of it, but I think they really failed to do justice Jon’s story arc – just Bran telling us about his identity and Jon repeatedly saying that he didn’t want the throne was NOT enough to resolve his heritage problem. It’s a frustrating waste of great story material, and I firmly believe GRRM won’t pass over the question of Jon’s true identity (and it’s announcement to the world) in such an implausible manner.

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    61. About the complaints that Dany’s death scene was ‘cheesy’: Kit Harington and Emilia Clarke really saved the finale IMO. It was tremendously well acted and it’s a pity they gave Kit so little to do this final season. He truly deserves more credit for his performance, when he is making the best of what little he is given this season.
      His last “You’re my Queen, now and always” wasn’t a cliché line, but rather a way to lure her into a kiss AND at the same time a heartfelt promise, a last pledge of his love before his betrayal. I found it credible and moving.

      Up to that point I had the impression their love story wasn’t developed extensively enough to make people truly feel it, but the final dialogue and death scene was heartbreaking and completely conveyed the monstrosity of the “duty or love” choice Jon had to make. Honestly, the show could have given Tyrion one speech less and saved some time for quality dialogue to elaborate Jon’s and Dany’s relationship.

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    62. Mr Derp: +1

      Please don’t let the Lord of Light bring GoT back.Every time it comes back, it’ll be a bit less of itself.Pieces get chipped away.

      Lol! Excellent sentiment. 😊

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    63. Grayven Reyne: “I forgot the horse, Arya forgot the horse, it was a very forgettable horse.”

      😆

      “Oh…my God.”
      “Well alright then.”

      Now I’m stuck binge-watching this channel.

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    64. I like to think that when Jon flashed that grin at the very end, he was recalling a brave ginger-haired Wilding lass saying “You know nothing, Jon Snow.”

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    65. For me the ending of game of throne and the death of daenarys and also bran the broken become the king the six kingdom followed by his sister sansa stark to rule the north and the one and only last truthful heir to the iron throne is been sent to the wall as the night watch is really making me want to question the writer and the creater of the biggest historic show that do they really felt that any logically in how the show has ended.. I honestly believe that the one that every right to be in the iron throne is the mother of dragon, queen daenarys… If u see from the season 1 till the season 8, on how daenarys from nothing with no army n no wealth, she manage to raise her own army her dothraki, from three stone egg she gave her life to the fire and bring 3 dragons n with her remain little dothraki, she free the unsullied from a bad master, and also she free the slave of the meeren.. In every single battle she will fight among her man even though she knows that she can be killed by the enemy, but still she fight among her man n not hide in the crept like the cersei or the new unworthy queen of the north, lady sansa. She came to westeros with her army and fully 3 grown dragon, if she really as mad queen as they say she could have take the entire 7 kingdom with a day.. But still she had compassion and goodness in her that she make an alliance with other to bring the kings landing with out brutally war…she never go n beg for help from anyone but Jon snow the king of North came to her and ask her help as he know that she has large army n 3grown dragon.. Even so daenerys so kind enough to offer him help by providing dragon stone to forge weapon.. Even she know that he didnt bent the knee she still help him, n when her man n jon snow are in the verge of death surrounded by the death, she risk her life n her dragons to save her man n jon snow and his men too even though she know that he is the king of the north. If she is mad as they say, she can just let jon die as one rival is no more.. But she came to save him.. N also the second time after jon reveal her true birth parents is that he is the last rightful heir to the iron throne, she stll save him, she n drogon.. And after all she done the only best thing that jon can offer is knife in the chest.. When theon greyjoy betrayed his brother robb stark n also made bran left the winterfell.. He can simply forgive him, just because theon save his sister sansa. But for daenerys he couldn’t find to forgive or accept the reason of her maddnes.. Compare to jamie lanister and jon snow i believe jaimeis far more better men, at least he is been truthful to his queen even though his queen cersei has killed so many innocent men and also destroy so many family including jon snow father ned stark, his mother catelyn stark n the robb stark and his wife with an unborn child that still in the womb.. Though she is not indirectly involved but still she is happy to know that their death n never felt sorry for sansa who is lost her father, mother n brother.. N even never stop jeofrey when ever he abuse her.. Not yo forgeting she killed the queen of the king landing and the entire people in the septon ith the wild fire. jon snow never thought of revenging for the death of his family member n being like dumb. N still jamie never put a sword in her chest despite so many people tell hin how cruel is cersei is.. He believed in her n believes that there’s reason to her maddnes n there is still goodness in her.. But jon on the other hand can still say that after the death of daenarys, when tyrion came n ask how is he, he still can say that he feel good of what he done.. It is so sick for me to hear that. The westeros are still standing because of daenarys, because her unsullied army, because her herd of dothraki n her 3 dragon.. Where were the king landing people when the winterfell were under war with the death, the king landing people know the battle of mankind is happenings but still they stay n watch the people of the north, the unsullied n dothraki are fighting with their life to save the mankind realm from the night king and his army.. For what daenerys felt n the reason she did, i know is the right thing.. U cant build the world with compassion, the world doesnt move like that anymore.. Sometimes u need to make the bold n drastic decisions to make the world see n follow what u say.. Like teacher, u can teach ur student without scolding them or punish them in order for them to triumph in the life.. Sometime kind words is just not enough to make people understand…

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    66. mau,

      HBO wanted more seasons, D and D said no. I cant think of anything thing else apart from them wanting to move on. The main issue with season 7 and 8 is the pace. Based on what book readers say about GRRM there is no way he can reach his endgame in just two books.

      Bryan Cogman should win best writer for season 8. His episode is the best and best written (IMO) for season 8. Yet the pace was slow and character focus.

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    67. BQ,

      About the R+L=J. It was every important for the endgame. The R+L=J is the reason why Dany flipped out, it’s the reason why Bran became King chosen in a more democratic way. Saying they dismissed the whole revelation without acknowledge it in the final, is in my book very strange, because the whole ending was build on that R+L=J.

      Why Bran is a good king: Well the problem with why power is bad is because people have an emotional attachment to power. Bran can’t be power-hungry because he lack that emotion to begin with. Another thing that make him a better problem is, if they are face with a problem, Bran can look in the past which solution works and which doesn’t.

      Why Tyrion didn’t name Jon have multiple reasons:
      1. Naming the person who is a prisoner King. Good move to let the unsullied slit that persons throat. Yes there would be war, The unsullied don’t care, because they would win with the Dothraki.
      2. Jon doesn’t want it, he is not going to make Varys mistake.

      Why Sam didn’t name Jon king:
      – Same as Tyrion. He doesn’t want it and it would result in the death of Jon.

      As why Bran chose that punishment from Jon:
      – Because it was not a punishment, he knew what Jon wanted to do once Jon was free, meaning he fave that as a punishment.
      – He knew Jon could walk free in the north and that he would never want to step foot in the 6 kingdoms.

      So it’s not a punishment for Jon, it’s a way out for Jon to do what Jon want to do. And it’s a way to ease Grey Worm into not killing Jon. Win-Win situation.

      As how the history would remember Jon:
      1. Jon doesn’t care.
      2. If they will write the truth, Dany will be shown as the tyrant she became meaning Jon may well be more perceived as a Hero in the future. The only thing that happened is that history won’t remember Dany’s good deeds. It’s more a fuck-it to Dany than to Jon.

      So what do you think Jon would have done if he was chosen King and he turn it down and for some reason Grey worm let him live. Do you think he wouldn’t go north to Thormund and Ghost for ever? I think he would.

      As for the books, I think the books go the same route, the history won’t remember the true parentage, and how could it, there’s no proof to begin with. Only Bran with his magic powers which is not a good case for the world.

      Drogon,

      Yikes, that last part is really scary that you think the burning of KL was justifiable and that it was just a punishment. Dany-fans can really forgive everything she did, and even after that event they call her the rightful queen.

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    68. Onedon,

      I think the problem is more that they write the biggest outline as: 1 big event per episode at least. And divided the story accordingly. It worked for season 7 because season 7 didn’t go beyond 80 minutes. You can see that with the difference in runtime. Season 8 I think the problem is that their scripts per episode were too long. More about that later. now how I think they devided the storyline:
      7×01: Arriving Dany in westeros. Everything about that + moments in the north before Dany arrives.
      7×02: In the north Jon is going to Dany + First loss of Dany
      7×03: Jon dany meet + First win of Dany that turned into a loss, with another loss
      7×04: Dany learned about the WW + Dany strikes back and show her strength.
      7×05: Decline of Dany with her first big mistake. Going north for the next episode with the WW
      7×06: White walker episode
      7×07: Setting the basics for the final season. Where does everyone stand, what are they fighting (WW and Cersei) + truth Jon + Wall down.
      8×01: Arriving winterfell for everyone + Jon learns the truth about himself.
      8×02: Jaime arriving + everyone else arriving that needs to be in the battle + Dany learns truth + last evening before the attack
      8×03: The whole WW problem comes to an epic end. (which if we look at the other movies, 80 minutes should be enough but it wasn’t) It needed some scenes more and I think they wrote those scenes if we look at Arya giving Sansa a knife for instance, I think plan a was in fact having a big showdown in the crypts with Sansa using that knife. but it was cut for time reasons.
      8×04: Aftermath white walkers + going south ending in the big cliffhanger for the second big part. Dany’s demise. On paper it worked great I think but I think the script once again was maybe too long and more 100/120 minutes long. Another cuts needed to be made.
      8×05: Dany’s fall. Which I think was probably just 80 minutes needed.
      8×06: Final, so Dany’s demise needs to be in it for ending an enemy in the final. After that we build westeros again after the defeat of Dany. I think on paper it made sense to have that in one episode, but I think the scripts once again was 2hours long, so cuts needed to be made once they finally started to film.

      So I think on paper when they wrote season 7 and 8 in one run, it made all sense, but I think once they starting to film it the scripts were too long and there were cuts made. I mean how many times we didn’t here that some actors expected it to be 90/120 minute episodes. I think there were cuts made.

      (one cut was strange, that they let Jorah get killed in episode 3 rather then witness Dany’s demise)

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    69. BQ,

      “I feel his character has been cheated: forced to make the greatest sacrifice and take the burden of life-long guilt and trauma for having killed his true love – and after all he did to save humanity with her help, he is expelled from the same kingdoms he saved (and partly ruled, and should rule by his birthright, quoting Sam), only to be forgotten in the far North.”

      _______
      1. I didn’t buy that Dany was Jon’s “true love.”
      2. I was really surprised that Jon’s bff Sam did not come to his defense – or even mention his name. Their friendship was developed and emphasized early and often (beginning in S1e3, I believe), Did Sam just drop Jon like a hot potato?

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    70. BQ,

      According to one of the “Chekhov’s Gun” principle’s corollaries (about which I read thanks to Professor Wimsey), if a fact or detail isn’t important to the “endgame”, good storytelling compels its removal. Otherwise it’s a useless distraction.

      I am trying really hard to reconcile all the time and drama spent on Jon’s parentage throughout the first 72 episodes, with the way it was seemingly jettisoned in the 73rd and final episode. He could’ve been a tavern wench’s bastard son or the trueborn son of Lyanna Stark-Targaryen and it wouldn’t have changed the outcome.

      I doubt that the only significance of Jon’s true identity was so that Sansa wouid swear to keep it secret, then blab about it to Tyrion to undermine Dany, and get Varys roasted – or simply to make Jon queasy about boinking his aunt. (We really didn’t know – because Jon never said anything about the impact of the revelation.)

      I’m not being critical. I just assume I’m missing something. Why all that setup about R+L=J and its dramatic revelation in flashbacks… if it didn’t mean anything to Jon’s future or the realm’s future? I have a hard time accepting that Jon’s Targaryen paraentage was only intended as a means of making Dany paranoid about the existence of a rival claimant to the throne – which Jon disclaimed anyway.

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    71. Drogon,

      So…. in a nutshell you’re saying that for 71 episodes Dany was built up to be a savior and a heroine, only to transform into a mass-murdering tyrant in the final two episodes?

        Quote  Reply

    72. Onedon,

      “Character focus” is what made GoT great. Not firebreathing dragons, ice zombies, swordfighting, or massive battle scenes.

      At the risk of sounding redundant, that’s why S4e7 remains my #1 all-time favorite episode. One-on-one character scenes: Oberyn + Tyrion; Bronn + Tyrion; and Sandor + Arya. Characters painting vivid pictures with words.

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    73. Strange question, and before I ask it, I say I think season 8 is brilliant so I have not a single problem with it.

      But this negativity is really affecting not only D&D careers. I can see Disney having some meetings about how to handle the bad press, and HBO needs to think about their future products.

      I read that Emilia is up to shoot some extra scenes that fans had the feeling that was missing. So if for instance 1 or 2 scenes of her and Missandei or her with Cersei needed to be shot, Emilia is up for it. She liked her ending so changing the ending is not what she would do. But I’m wondering if HBO can maybe try to shoot some scenes to be implemented in the DVD release, like some extended version on the DVD.

      I can see them doing it if the actors/ D&D are up for it, that they will shoot maybe 30 minutes of extra footage. Or maybe if it is already shot but not rendered for the HBO release that they will do render it now and implement it.

      I mean if I read the negative reactions, it’s not really the ending that people are having a problem with more that they are missing some scenes that would have change the ending for them to “hate it” and amazing this is perfect. So I’m going to write some scenes here just for fun, which I write with the thought of what people who reacted negatively about the ending, not the WHAT happened hate, but the HOW it happened hate.

      part 1: WW treat. Episode 1 till 3
      I don’t really see any hate here instead of some small issues people had so I think if these scenes were implemented it would change a lot.
      1. Having a cold opening with the WW attacking Last Hearth through the eyes of Lord Umber. They could just have lord umber look up at the distance where we see the NK and his captains giving the order to attack. Some soldier said that lord umber needs to hide while they fight. We see him flee to the main hall, where we hear screams in the background and maybe a couple dying. He closes the door to the main hall and hear the wights attacking the main hall door. But we don’t see him die it ends here (for the ending in Last hearth later on the episode). Just skip the part where Lord Umber is in winterfell. Lady Karstark is there. Or have it and not having it as a cold opening but later on in the episode. I think this scene could be 4 minutes long.
      2. For episode 2. Having a scene where Thormund and Edd passes either the WW. Just to remind us what’s coming. Or having a scene where they just entered a village or a camp that just have been killed by wights, making a nod that this is just happened a couple of hours ago. And have them fight the wights. Maybe just 3 or 4 wights. It’s all about the feeling that the WW treat is real. This could be another 4 minute long scene.
      3. Having a scene where Sam and Bran or others talked about the prophecy. Maybe having Tyrion’s famous book sentence: Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head. Making it clear that maybe the prophecy is not what we think it is. but at least they acknowledge it for the fans. And at a scene that they need to win, because if they lose in the north, they can never win against the WW treat later on. 4 minutes again.
      4. Having a scene with Varys at LF burial place with Tyrion. 2 minutes
      5. Episode 3: Having a fight in the crypts a little bit longer. Or at least having Sansa kill one wight. I think 3 minutes is enough.
      6. Episode 3: Having Arya running through the godswoods. 1 minute Changing the feeling of surprise to excitement in the hope Arya make it to the NK.
      6b. This one is not possible to shoot cheaply but I think people wanted somebody to fight a WW captain. That could have been a scene of 2 minutes. Let Jon fight the NK get throw backwards, another captain starts to fight Jon while the NK goes to Bran again. Arya is here. But I won’t count this one.
      For the first 3 episodes : 18 minutes, I up that to 20.

      part 2: Cersei’s demise and change of Dany. Episode 4 and 5
      I think that having a big change in one episode is not bad, so starting and ending Brienne and Jaime’s story is not that bad if we have a feeling of time have past.
      1. Having a scene with Missandei and Dany. 3 minutes
      2. Episode 4: Why not have some scorpions on land. They are the ones that took out Rheagal, it made more sense that Dany missed those. Euron takes out the ships like in the show. Dany goes still after the ships like in the show. So the ones on land could escape from Drogon and Dany. They find Missandei on a different shore than we find Grey worm etc. 4 minutes
      3. Having a scene with Missandei and Cersei. Maybe show her that she is being yelled at by the people of KL. 4 minutes
      4. Episode 5: Jaime arrives before Arya and Sandor at KL so I’m doing this scene from his perspective. Having a scene where Jaime is at inn with hot pie. Having him talk that he just left the most honorable woman and make his motives for going back to Cersei clear to the audience. And once he leaves south we see Arya and Sandor moving in from the north. We don’t need to see this scene except a short moment between Arya and hot pie. This scene should be at the beginning of the episode. I wouldn’t mind if episode 5 would have been 2 hours long. So I put it here. I think <5 minutes is enough for this moment. We don’t need Jon moving south so I won’t add a scene like that.
      5. See Dany’s 2 missing weeks and Varys trying to poison her this could be one scene on day 2: having Dany in Anger, blaming Cersei and Jon from betraying her, she is more like the end of episode 4. Grey worm agrees with Dany and feeds her bad impulses. After that we can have the inn scene with Jaime, after that we skip a couple of days. We see what Grey worm as advisor does to Dany, her paranoia about Jon and Cersei continues to blaming even the citizens of KL. This scene is also where the poison of Varys come into play, we see a scene with that little girl, slipping something in Dany’s food while Dany mumbling about the citizens have chosen Cersei, they are enemies and guilty of the horrors Cersei brings. She tells te girl she doesn’t want to eat. I think those two scenes are max 6 minutes .

      For episode 4 and 5: 22 minutes, up that to 25 minutes (total of 45 minutes)

      part 3: Dany’s demise and rebuilding westeros. Episode 6
      1. I would have added a second time jump. First time jump is just 1 a 2 days ca. We see a scene with Tyrion and Jon in the prison cells. We found out that Jon gave himself up, because he can’t forgive himself and that he doesn’t want to be king. Then Tyrion makes an assumption that somebody else should be king then. Maybe somebody without a family name, because that only causes death and destruction. He even asks what Jon wants if he would be free. Going north is his answer. 3 minutes
      2. We see the Starks moving out of winterfell. Sansa tells a soldier to ready the troups, we see 10.000 northerners leaving with them. We also see Bran that every warden of every kingdom will be at the meeting because it concerns the whole of Westeros. And having a sentence that make clear that if Jon isn’t let free, death will come at the door of KL. (don’t need to see all those moving to KL only the starks) 4 minutes
      3. Some small scenes where we see some old characters. Gilly Sam together etc. 5 minutes

      I can’t see anything else missing but I think thse 3 parts could have change the last 30 minutes to a more fully ended ending. Meaning 12 minutes extra was needed in my mind. Round that up to 15 minutes. Meaning the whole season needed around 60 minutes 1 hour more

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    74. Ten Bears,

      If it wasn’t in the show, Dany would have ruled as good ruler of Westeros, another monarch. Instead of one step closer to democracy. Jon’s parentage make sure we get one step closer to a monarch.

      I think the big difference in the book will be that Tyrion is much darker there, so what if Tyrion is not the one keeping her from burning KL in the books. I think he will be the one that made it possible. And 2 more to the reveal. I think Jon will not be taken prisoner in the books. I think in fact Jon will be the one that gives away his crown and is the one that make sure the counsil is being formed, that there need to be a better way instead of a system that brings death and destruction. I think that will be the difference, not Tyrion but Jon making it possible.

      Ten Bears,

      You’re god damn right, Ten Bears. It is all about the characters. How some change to be better person, some fall to disgrace, etc

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    75. Ten Bears: I’m not being critical. I just assume I’m missing something. Why all that setup about R+L=J and its dramatic revelation in flashbacks… if it didn’t mean anything to Jon’s future or the realm’s future? I have a hard time accepting that Jon’s Targaryen paraentage was only intended as a means of making Dany paranoid about the existence of a rival claimant to the throne – which Jon disclaimed anyway.

      I understand the concern. In the most recent book, ADwD,

      there is even another claimed Targ who could swindle her claim to the throne, and is in the process of doing so with the GC while she wanders the Dothraki Sea in Essos. Many readers believe he is a false Aegon Targaryen (fAegon), even though he is supported by Varys and Illyrio. I could see that plot line corrupting/influencing Jon’s parentage story to the point that Dany doesn’t know what to believe anymore. Another Aegon? Indeed, her paranoia could help destroy her.

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    76. Onedon,

      Going into season i thought there would be more, but outside episode 2, there really wasnt much. cersei didnt do much if anything. Jon didnt get much to do. The season looked pretty, nothing much outside the plot points.

      kevin1989,

      Those additional scenes would have been good. It would helped pushed the season into being great (i think its average). After episode 3, when we are dealing with human nature, where each person is the hero of their story. It needed more time, and to think this was their plan for years.

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    77. Ten Bears,

      Going into season i thought there would be more, but outside episode 2, there really wasnt much. cersei didnt do much if anything. Jon didnt get much to do. The season looked pretty, nothing much outside the plot points

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    78. There’s some good discussion here.
      I have to lighten things up first and then I’ll address the parentage issue.
      1) Is Bran’s first piece of legislation going to be a farm bill where they plant an orchard of weirwood trees in KL? (on the serious side, doesn’t Bran need a weirwood tree to tap into the godswoodnet? I don’t recall there being a Weirwood near KL)
      2) Will the Master of Building decide that Bran needs a “ranch” castle so he can easily attend his small council meetings?

      And on Jon’s parentage, I think if D&D had changed it slightly so it was Jon’s choice to go North and give up the crown (just like Maester Aemon) it would have worked alot better. It would have been the same end points, but just a slightly different way to get there. It seemed to me the 6 who still were living at the end who knew about Jon’s heritage decided to keep it a secret . Perhaps they thought people would turn against Jon if they knew he was actually a Targ thinking his coin may flip to the crazy at some point. Perhaps the Starks were trying to keep him safe. Otherwise, I would have thought they would have advocated for him to take the crown (which they blatantly didn’t, which made me think they didn’t for a reason). Tyrion, Sam, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Jon were the only ones left alive who knew. They made it seem like Varys never was able to get his scrolls out to the masses before he was discovered. I thought he would have had time to send some ravens, but it looks to me like D&D decided that Varys never got those scrolls out.

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    79. Tron79:

      “…And on Jon’s parentage, I think if D&D had changed it slightly so it was Jon’s choice to go North and give up the crown (just like Maester Aemon) it would have worked alot better.It would have been the same end points, but just a slightly different way to get there. It seemed to me the 6 who still were living at the end who knew about Jon’s heritage decided to keep it a secret . Perhaps they thought people would turn against Jon if they knew he was actually a Targ thinking his coin may flip to the crazy at some point. Perhaps the Starks were trying to keep him safe. Otherwise, I would have thought they would have advocated for him to take the crown (which they blatantly didn’t, which made me think they didn’t for a reason). Tyrion, Sam, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Jon were the only ones left alive who knew. They made it seem like Varys never was able to get his scrolls out to the masses before he was discovered. I thought he would have had time to send some ravens, but it looks to me like D&D decided that Varys never got those scrolls out.”

      • I thought Sam and Bran were supposed to be the smart ones in the room. Before S8, I was speculating that if the two of them really talked through the repercussions of public disclosure of Jon’s parentage – especially at such a precarious time with the WWs threatening and the Starks trying to hold the Northerners together – Bran and Sam would’ve concluded it was best to keep the secret a secret.
      Revealing it – to anyone – could only open a can of worms.

      • At great personal sacrifice, and despite the hurt caused to his wife and to Jon himself, Ned had kept that secret his whole life. I assume he kept that secret not just to honor his promise to his dying sister, but to protect Jon from anti-Targ “dragonspawn” hunters like Robert and probably most Northerners; and to protect his family if his “treasonous” act of harboring a Targaryen heir were uncovered.

      • So I didn’t quite understand why Bran “Mr. History Lesson” Stark was so adamant that “we have to tell him [Jon].” Despite King Robert’s death, there was still bitter anti-Targ prejudice in the North. (Dany and Jon even discussed this when planning their joint trip from Dragonstone to WF, e.g., Dany riding a dragon would be a tempting target to a Northerner seeking acclaim for shooting down the Mad King’s daughter.) Disclosing that Ned Stark’s bastard son was really a Targaryen prince had no benefits and only downsides.

      • I thought Dany could’ve avoided the potential internecine Targaryen rivalry for the throne by legitimizing Jon Snow as Jon Stark, and at least temporarily letting him remain KitN. She was fully aware of the blowback she’d suffer upon arriving at WF as the North’s unwanted “queen” after their king unilaterally gave up his crown AND the North’s sovereignty. When wussified Jon offered to “bend the knee” on his sickbed, she should’ve said “let’s hold off on that for now until after you broach the subject with your people and after we deal with the immediate, existential threat.” Both of them had to know the spontaneous, unnecessary “bending the knee” would create hostility and dissension: Jon spent the first half of S7 explaining why his people would not accept her as a ruler. (But I digress…)

      • Despite oathbreaker blabbermouth Sansa breaking her promise and revealing the secret after ten minutes to someone she knew would disseminate it or act on it, it does seem that when all was said and done the secret didn’t extend beyond seven people: Dany (RIP), Varys (RIP*), Sam, Bran, Arya, Sansa and Jon. At least that’s what it looked like from the show: Nobody mentioned Jon’s heritage during the awkward King Bran selection scene.
      * (Way to rat out your best friend Tyrion… the guy who once smuggled you out of KL to help you escape a death sentence.)

      • Sorry for going off on tangents. I wanted to agree with you that it would’ve been more palatable and logical if, as you suggested, the showrunners “changed it slightly so it was Jon’s choice to go North and give up the crown (just like Maester Aemon)…”
      That certainly would’ve been consistent with Jon’s history and character of personal sacrifice for the greater good – instead of banishment to the North as some kind of lame “punishment.”

      • It seemed pretty clear to just about everyone that Dany had gone total looney tunes. I for one had sort of rationalized her torching of the city as sort of an amplified “road rage” during the heat of battle, brought on by loss, provocation and isolation. It was her behavior afterwards that had to make any rational person conclude “she’s gone off the deep end; she wants to “liberate” the whole continent the way she just “liberated” the civilians of KL.”
      Jon couldn’t really be vilified for making the difficult decision to terminate an unstable, violent monarch with a WMD and hordes of homicidal followers.

      • Having Jon make the conscious choice on his own to disavow any claim to the throne (and perhaps never reveal his true identity), and return to the North – mirroring what Maester Aemon did for the greater good – would’ve been truer to Jon’s character and would’ve been more logical than having Jon sentenced as a “criminal”, and exiled to the Wall to appease Grey Worm (or whatever the deal was that resulted in Jon being treated as a pawn in some illogical Unsullied vs. Northerners grudge match).

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    80. Onedon,

      Thanks, I really think that sums up a bit what people were missing, in earlier episodes they called that they missed WW action (concern I had myself), and that they dismissed the prophecy part.

      With episode 4 and 5 it was more that people were missing the decline of Dany, so a couple of scenes with that would help. And also not showing the way south which would be enough if there was a scene showing where Jaime, Arya and Sandor are. And people asked for a better explanation for what happened to Jaime, why he went back to Cersei.

      And with the final the only real problem I read is the counsel part that we missed a crucial moment which explained why the R+L=J part was dismissed, having a moment with that would have solve the problem.

      And why I added those scenes myself is that I wanted to know how much more was needed for the show, and it was not much that was more needed just a little bit of extra meat. (And I think that also made clear that they could have have 10 episode season with episodes of 50 minutes)

      Ten Bears,

      I think with the Jon punishment it would have been enough if we witness a scene with Jon and Tyrion, if Jon told Tyrion that he wanted to go north, that duty that comes with being King will destroy him, I think it would have come off better on screen.

      Somehow I expect that they filmed/or wrote some scenes like that. For me it was odd that episode 1 and 2 were wild episodes when come to the runtime, same with all the episodes from the past. And we got talk that Kit expected too have episodes of at least 90 minutes. and we got for 4 episodes exactly 79 minutes and 80 and 82 for the big battle. Like HBO cut some screentime. And with some huge scenes that could alter the runtime by a lot that we saw in episode 3 till 6, because those moments really depend on the director if we get long shots or very short shot of a scene, that I think it was too strange that everything was so neatly around 80 minutes.

      So I’m wondering if we get extended episodes later this year on the DVD

      EDIT: what I meant was not that D&D didn’t know that what they wrote is around a certain runtime but more that they wrote the episodes what was needed in a certain episodes, episode 3 needs to be WW, episode 4 needs to be the connection between WW and the battle of KL and episode 6 the endresult. But somehow that all is around 80 minutes. It’s too neat for the way they wrote this season. There was no skipping of scenes from one to the next episodes to make the runtime more the same but somehow what they wrote was exactly around 80 minutes, while episode 1 and 2 were much shorter.

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    81. Ten Bears,

      Some good reflections.

      Ten Bears: • […] Bran and Sam would’ve concluded it was best to keep the secret a secret. Revealing it – to anyone – could only open a can of worms.

      Possibly. However at that time all they knew was that Jon had surrendered the North’s sovereignty and his own kingship to an unknown claimant to the throne. (It’s hard of course to know how much Bran knew, but he was portrayed as still piecing things together at that point.) Jon was making momentous decisions affecting everyone and Bran and Sam discovered he was doing this without the crucial knowledge of his identity, which if he had it would likely affect those decisions.

      Ten Bears: […] • I thought Dany could’ve avoided the potential internecine Targaryen rivalry for the throne by legitimizing Jon Snow as Jon Stark, and at least temporarily letting him remain KitN. She was fully aware of the blowback she’d suffer upon arriving at WF as the North’s unwanted “queen” after their king unilaterally gave up his crown AND the North’s sovereignty. When wussified Jon offered to “bend the knee” on his sickbed, she should’ve said “let’s hold off on that for now until after you broach the subject with your people and after we deal with the immediate, existential threat.” Both of them had to know the spontaneous, unnecessary “bending the knee” would create hostility and dissension: Jon spent the first half of S7 explaining why his people would not accept her as a ruler. (But I digress…)

      That’s the thing about people, though: we’re flawed. Yes, that’s what she should have done, and he shouldn’t have done, but those are the kinds of mistakes we make, especially when the stakes and pressure are high. Dany was always blinded by her conviction she should rule over all, and Jon was overcome by awe for her heroism, power, and beauty. “They’ll come to see you for who you are.” They’ve each always been fairly blind in those ways.

      Ten Bears:• Despite oathbreaker blabbermouth Sansa breaking her promise and revealing the secret after ten minutes to someone she knew would disseminate it or act on it, it does seem that when all was said and done the secret didn’t extend beyond seven people: Dany (RIP), Varys (RIP*), Sam, Bran, Arya, Sansa and Jon. At least that’s what it looked like from the show: Nobody mentioned Jon’s heritage during the awkward King Bran selection scene.
      * (Way to rat out your best friend Tyrion… the guy who once smuggled you out of KL to help you escape a death sentence.)

      I’m not sure about this. I thought Varys succeeded in getting the word out, but then, as you note, we saw no evidence of this in the Dragonpit parley. So I assume the writers wanted to leave that ambiguous. Maybe to echo the point made in the finale that inheritance will no longer matter when it comes to royal succession, now that the wheel is broken.

      (And Tyrion had to report on Varys – or join Varys there and then – because Varys did it to himself by gambling on directly approaching Jon. Jon would have told Dany about Varys.)

      Ten Bears: • Having Jon make the conscious choice on his own to disavow any claim to the throne (and perhaps never reveal his true identity), and return to the North – mirroring what Maester Aemon didfor the greater good – would’ve been truer to Jon’s character and would’ve been more logical than having Jon sentenced as a “criminal”, and exiled to the Wall to appease Grey Worm (or whatever the deal was that resulted in Jon being treated as a pawn in some illogical Unsullied vs. Northerners grudge match).

      For me it worked. Jon was tortured by his betrayal of Dany. Though he knew it was the right thing to do, “it doesn’t feel right”. He was reconciled to receiving Drogon’s incinerating justice. He probably wanted to die. But he lived. Again. While it happened off-camera, I felt he then gave himself up to whatever justice he was deemed to deserve by the people around him (I wouldn’t be surprised if he’d also hoped the Unsullied would kill him by confessing). That justice was a byproduct of the new system – no more rule by virtue of inheritance – that Westerosi leaders had agreed. Jon’s right to the throne was therefore decided by the lords and ladies of the realm, not by the “rightful” monarch deigning to abstain. I.e. it’s important that it not be Jon choosing to give up the throne, but that it’s the realm that chooses to break the wheel of the inheritance system.

      Greyworm as leader proved himself to possess enough savvy and self-restraint to refrain from immediately killing Jon, recognizing his forces were now left without their raison d’être, holed up in a foregn land surrounded by hostile armies, and that Tyrion and Jon were irreplaceable hostages essential to negotiating a favorable exit. And while I’d have preferred more horsetrading dialogue in the Dragonpit scene to make this clearer, it seemed obvious to me that the side of those wanting Jon killed and prepared to fight about it included at least the Iron Islands, and probably Dorne as well. So it wasn’t just the departing Unsullied and Dothraki who would be watching what happened to Jon.

      And as others here have pointed out, Bran may well have known Jon’s “sentence” was actually a gift.

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    82. Thinking about what comes next, has anyone seen the HBO promo for His Dark Materials? I was watching one of those HBO promos before Chernobyl and I said..”who’s that girl that looks a little like Arya?” It took me awhile to figure out what show she was in and then I realized it was His Dark Materials, and it was Dafne Keen, who was in “Logan”. HBO just says..”coming soon”… so that’s another thing like GOT… I read it will be out sometime before the end of 2019.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Ten Bears:
      Drogon,

      So…. in a nutshell you’re saying that for 71 episodes Dany was built up to be a savior and a heroine, only to transform into a mass-murdering tyrant in the final two episodes?

      In the 71 episodes I watched I never thought the show was making Dany out to be a savior/heroin. She wanted the iron throne and she was willing to burn anyone that stood in her way. Now to be fair she said that she didn’t want to be like her father but I never got the vibe that D&D were making her out to be some pious and angelic figure. Far from it.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface: In the 71 episodes I watched I never thought the show was making Dany out to be a savior/heroin. She wanted the iron throne and she was willing to burn anyone that stood in her way. Now to be fair she said that she didn’t want to be like her father but I never got the vibe that D&D were making her out to be some pious and angelic figure. Far from it.

      I think you’re right that she was driven by wanting the IT.
      I also think it was a major theme that she was trying to make a better world. She was ridding the world of slavery and helping the people understand what it is to be free.
      The whole reason Varys and Tyrion wanted to follow her was that they thought she was the one who could bring peace to the realm and a “better world”.

      She was willing to be ruthless and burn those who wouldn’t bend the knee. She did show a fatal flaw of having a Targaryn “fire” temper without thinking of the consequences. Tyrion tried his best to explain the consequences to her.
      To me, it works better now that I think that they went for the LOTR idea that IT=P.
      The power of the IT corrupted her and drove her mad. It didn’t sit well with watching her for so many seasons as someone who so many thought would bring a better world. In season 2 or 3 I can’t imagine her ever saying that she was the only one who knew what was right. Now I see it that the IT corrupted her just like the ring. The closer she got to the IT, the more it changed her. That sits better to me than some of the other explanations, and I’m OK with it now. I re-watched episode 5 last night, and I really do appreciate the episode much more now that the shock has worn off.

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    85. kevin1989,

      I just wanted to say that I love season 8, but some of these additions could have added to it. Their exclusion, however, didn’t take anything away. The only one I really disagree with is the one with Arya running through the godswood. You said it would change the scene from surprise to hope, but utter hopelessness was the tone the director was going for. As soon as the dramatic music started playing, wights began swarming Winterfell, the civilians down in the crypt were under attack, Jaime and Brienne were pinned against a wall, fighting wights, Jorah was using himself as a human shield to protect Danerys, Theon dead, the Night King slowly approaching Bran, Jon pinned down by Ice Viserion. I don’t know about you, but that was one of the most intense moments of my life. I know television has rules, even GOT, and they couldn’t just kill off all their main characters halfway through the final season, but for a moment, they made me forget what I know. I honestly thought everybody was going to die up until Arya appeared on screen. She’s my favorite character and yet they somehow made me forget she existed. I know some people don’t like shock moments, but I think her scene with Melisandre set up her going after the Night King, so it really worked for me.

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    86. Ten Bears,

      I love this comment and agree with all of it! I really wish that Jon had been given the chance to decide his own fate in the end, as we all know he wouldn’t have chosen the throne and probably would have chosen a life as far from KL and out of the public eye as possible. So it would have had the same result, except it would have given this tortured and heroic character just one opportunity in his misery-laden GOT timeline where he made a decision about his fate with no one in mind other than what was best for him.

      – He had to choose the wall when he was young as he was a bastard whom was half hated/disliked by his family and knew he could only find honour at the wall.
      – Once at the wall, he didn’t get to choose what his speciality was, he wanted to be a ranger, but the role of steward was put upon him.
      – He was honour-bound to abide by the Halfhand’s wishes and be a turncloak for the crows among the wildlings once he was taken prisoner.
      – He was made lord commander, which he did seem to enjoy, to be fair, but not a role he chose for himself or a decision he made for himself.
      – After his resurrection, he was massively talked into following Sansa’s wishes and only did so out of honour and duty to his family, when all he wanted was to run away somewhere warm.
      – After that he was made King in the North; not a choice he wanted and not one he ever seemed comfortable with.
      – And then he found out he was the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne- again, not something he wanted.

      Everything has been decided for him or he has been talked into through his honourable nature. It would have been so rewarding to see him finally make a decision about his own destiny for his own well-being based on what he wanted. Alas.

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    87. Tron79:
      “Thinking about what comes next, has anyone seen the HBO promo for His Dark Materials?I was watching one of those HBO promos….”

      I’ve learned my lesson. I’m going to cancel HBO, and if another promising series comes along, I’ll wait until it’s concluded before I (binge) watch the whole thing.

      I’m glad I bailed on Showtime’s “Penny Dreadful.” As much as I like Eva Green, it got kind of silly… and as it turned out, Showtime unceremoniously pulled the plug and (I read) that the creators gave it an abrupt ending that left its fans howling.

      Though I had intended to read the ASOIAF books when the show concluded, I think I’m going to abandon that plan since the book series will never be completed. (Not GRRM-bashing. It’s just accepting reality.)

      If “His Dark Materials” turns out to be a hit, I’ll catch it when it’s over. Same thing with the GoT prequel.

      I think I may do a rewatch of Star Trek: The Next Generation. 178 episodes from 1987-1994. It’s been a long, long time, yet I remember that with few exceptions the episodes were really good – and the two-part series finale was excellent.

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    88. Ten Bears:
      • So I didn’t quite understand why Bran “Mr. History Lesson” Stark was so adamant that “we have to tell him [Jon].” Despite King Robert’s death, there was still bitter anti-Targ prejudice in the North. (Dany and Jon even discussed this when planning their joint trip from Dragonstone to WF, e.g., Dany riding a dragon would be a tempting target to a Northerner seeking acclaim for shooting down the Mad King’s daughter.) Disclosing that Ned Stark’s bastard son was really a Targaryen prince had no benefits and only downsides.

      One thing to consider is that Bran needed Jon to know specifically so it would break up Jon and Dany and cause the strife it did. It is possible that Bran either manipulated events so that he would become King, or merely acted on them out of necessity in order to be elected King. I don’t think Bran is an outright villain in this sense, but there is perhaps something a tad.. sinister(?) about how he ended up where he did. Perhaps he knew how bad Dany would be on the throne, and the only way to usher in the reform needed would for him to be King?

      I’m not 100% sold on this idea, but it’s intriguing to think about. Although I do wish the show would have given us a few more hints one way or another aside from the rather cryptic line, “Why do you think I came all this way?”

      In any case, you make a lot of good points in your post, and I must say I like the idea of Jon choosing to refuse to be King like Maester Aemon did.

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    89. Ten Bears,

      I actually taught A theology/ethics class based totally on Star Trek to teens. We used lots of TNG episodes. And I also used Maisie’s Dr Who episodes! There’s some great material to talk about with those too. And even if there wasn’t I would have come up with something!

      I asked for a set of ASOIAF for Father’s Day and I do plan on jumping in. I am going on a trip to Europe from the US later in June so I plan on making a dent on the first book in the various airports and on the long flights. I hear what you are saying about the future books. To me I want to see what the book readers have been talking about all these years. It doesn’t worry me as much about the future books. I do think that WOW will be out at some point. Most aren’t sure about a dream of spring.

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    90. So there are people actually telling the actors (and all the production team and all of th thousand who are involved in the show) to ‘fix’ the show by adding ‘just a few’ scenes? Really? You are talking about first peoples lives who have now moved on passed the point of being able to return, and second you are turning this all into fanfiction – and which fan’s fiction?. Nothing wrong with that per se, but I’d suspect that HBO will not finance such an effort.

      Yes 7&8 should have had 10 episodes, yes there should have added scenes here and there to help later explain (esp Bran being king), no there didn’t need to be extra scenes showing Dany to become mad because what show have you been watching for 8 years? Do people really not have the imagination to fill in blanks? Could it all have been better? yes but thats a non starter. Start looking at what did happen and consider (as many have been doing) the how and wherefore from the book text or what we know about human nature. Did they miss the boat with dropping the WW threat too early? Did they throw jon’s claim out the window, when we all know he didn’t want it, and he wanted to go north? Do people think that everything must be explained and tied up in a bow for them to understand? Do people no longer have the abillty to postulate (as we have done for 8 years) the outcomes of these events? What will happen next? What will Bran be like as a King, how will Sansas relationship with him change when they come in conflict (as they migt)? This is what art is about – making us consider and interpret for ourselves what it means. If we lose that ability, we are lost.

      Again, I agree mistakes have been made. Deal with it and imagine how it mgith be otherwise

      Sorry for the long rant but I just couldn’t take any more

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    91. Ten Bears,

      think I may do a rewatch of Star Trek: The Next Generation. 178 episodes from 1987-1994. It’s been a long, long time, yet I remember that with few exceptions the episodes were really good – and the two-part series finale was excellent.

      Yes! Storytelling at its best.

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    92. Young Dragon,

      The way they did it, they couldn’t show Arya until the moment they did, or it would have been ruined.

      I wish Jon was screaming Go! instead of Ermmmagerrrrd! but oh well.

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    93. Clob,

      The ONLY thing I wanted different about her ending was a scene with Gendry where he tells her he doesn’t want to be a Lord any more than she wants to be a Lady. She then asks him to go west with her and he’s on the ship in her last scene. The way it was felt too lonely for her, especially after it seems she finally let go of her hate and vengeful thoughts

      I like that – but I am wondering if they didn’t do so in the same way that Sansa rules alone they can take care of themselves. But part of me also wonders what Arya will find on her journey, and who Sansa might find on hrs

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    94. Ten Bears,

      That’s fine. I just think too many people are metaphorically jumping off bridges because of details they wanted to see that don’t necessarily have a big impact on the endgame D&D envisioned.

      I appreciate much of what you’ve articulated because it makes a lot of sense but youre almost being too smart in your analyses of what should have happened.

      Lets be honest, almost every major GoT character has made colossally dumb mistakes throughout the show.

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    95. Ten Bears,

      wouldn’t have minded an entire episode devoted to Sandor and Arya traveling from WF to KL after this brief scene in S8e4 of the two of them riding away from the festivities at WF:

      Id watch that!

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    96. Sorry for my rant above, been reading too many negative reviews. I have loved the Arya discussion here, glad there is so much love for my fav character

      Also would have preferred that Jaime knighting Brienne had ended their evening. She was beaming from that. Don’t break her heart!

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    97. ash,
      Arya and the hound, best pair in GOT. With Arya and tywin in second place; her remark that anyone can be killed was great. i think maisie, emilia and peter should get an emmy this year. Lena did not do anything this year so she is out. i hope they break the record this year for number of emmys

      Also would have preferred that Jaime knighting Brienne had ended their evening.

      +1

      Che,

      Not much really changed for him. At least he should be happy now

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    98. Che,

      Exactly. To everything you wrote. Apologies in advance if I’m about to repeat what you already pointed out…

      The way I saw Jon’s story is that early on he developed a sense of empathy from two significant events, and ever since then all of his actions and decisions were motivated by the greater good without regard to his own happiness or survival:

      [Neither one of these is verbatim]:
      • First, his whining that his NW brothers hated him “because I’m better than them” was shut down by Tyrion, who detailed the brothers’ harsh backstories compared to Jon’s relatively cushy upbringing. He was a real mensch after that, and made loyal friends of his “brothers.”
      • Then, there was his argument with Ygritte that ended with:

      Jon: “My father was Ned Stark. I have the blood of the First Men. My ancestors lived here, same as yours!
      Ygritte: “Then why are you fighting us?”
      (He had no retort. She was right.)

      After that, Jon was no longer focused on his own lot in life as a bastard, but on a sincere desire to uphold his pledge to be “the shield that guards the realms of men.”

      Among other self-sacrifices for the greater good, Jon:

      • Gave up a chance for carefree easy life with Ygritte in order to return to CB and warn the NW of Mance’s plans.

      • Volunteered to go after the mutineers at Craster’s Keep to prevent them from revealing the sad state of the NW defenses to Mance. [Suicide Mission #1: Thorne & co. approved the mission because they figured Jon would likely get killed]

      • After the NW barely fended off Mance’s invading army at the Battle of Castle Black, Jon ventured out alone to try to assassinate Mance – [Suicide Mission #2] and was only saved from a slow. painful death by Stannis’s timely arrival.

      • Turned down Stannis’s offer to be legitimized as Jon Stark, Lord of WF, because he’d already pledged himself to the NW – even though at that point it looked like Thorne would be the new LC and make his life miserable.

      • Made the controversial but correct decision to implement his Wildling Resettlement Program AND try to rescue wildlings at Hardhome (i.e., the “courage to make peace” as Tormund described it). For his good intentions and faultless logic, Thorne & his fellow shortsighted jackasses stabbed him to death. (PS F*ck Olly)

      • After he “gave his life” for the NW and just wanted to go someplace warm, Sansa roped him into fighting the Boltons to reclaim WF – even though the odds were against him and (for whatever reason) Sansa withheld critical intel.

      • Accepted coronation as KitN primarily to try to mount a defense of the North against AotD: an existential threat his fellow Northerners did not and could not appreciate.

      • Went south despite the risks and his lords’ and sister’s misgivings because they desperately needed dragonglass and allies with firepower.

      • As bone-headed as it was, he “bent the knee” not for his own convenience but apparently (?) because he felt it would benefit his people. (Or alternatively, he really was thinking with his shlong instead of his brain)

      • For whatever good it did, tried to help defend WF against NK. (It seemed all he did was get lost in a blizzard and yell at undead Viserion, but it’s not like he pulled a Lord Glover and ran away.)

      • As you observed, after all of this selflessness,
      it would have done his character justice if his final sacrifice were his own conscious decision, and not foisted in him by Grey Worm and others without anyone speaking up for him and without even his participation in the decision to banish him.
      Even a thirty second speech explaining why he had to do what he did when it became apparent Dany had gone off the deep end; and some kind of resolution that was his own conscious decision – even if it was another selfless act for the greater good (eg foregoing any claim to the throne and getting out of Dodge to keep the fragile peace.)

      So I join in your assessment that: “It would have been so rewarding to see him finally make a decision about his own destiny for his own well-being based on what he wanted. Alas.” Instead, the ending made it seem like Jon was just a shuttlecock in secondary players’ game of badminton.

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    99. Enharmony1625,

      If Bran foresaw all of the events which culminated in his election as king, and just sat back and let thousands of people get killed just so he could come out on top at the end, then he’s the biggest villain of them all. If he deliberately concealed vital information so people could be where “they belong” on some cosmic chessboard, then he’s the equivalent lf a tyrant even if he lacks the malice.
      Plus, I thought he was a space cadet who practically admitted he wasn’t really human anymore. He seemed devoid of emotions like compassion. (“Thanks Meera. Nice knowin’ ya. I’m not Bran anymore. Bye.”) People died for him. He fried Hodor’s brain. Hodor got torn to shreds by zombies so Bran could live. Yet he didn’t really appear upset about any of those tragic deaths.

      I had thought Bran had to survive because his powers would be indispensable to figuring out how to defeat the WWs… but no. That was all ASNAWP and her dagger flip. 👸🏻

      Finally, how exactly is a weirdo who doesn’t care about people’s well-being make the best person to rule people? I don’t get it.

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    100. ash:
      Sorry for my rant above, been reading too many negative reviews.I have loved the Arya discussion here, glad there is so much love for my fav character….

      Obviously, Arya is my favorite character too. Yet, I’ll be the first to admit that in S7 she was a glorified benchwarmer – kind of an adjunct to Sansa/LF.

      However, Maisie Williams was fabulous in S8. Such incredible range! I just hope when Emmy nomination time rolls around she’s not slighted because of the divisive reaction to S8, because all of her scenes were great. And I’m not talking about the out-of-nowhere NK termination surprise.

      She ought to win based solely on her emotiveness (is that a word?) during her last scene with Sandor.

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    101. Ten Bears,

      Don’t get me wrong, my biggest criticism of the finale is the lack of proper buildup and explanation for why Bran is King and why he should be King. The show really needed to flesh out Bran’s character more for this important revelation/twist to land better. I was imagining earlier today that there could have been a series of meaty scenes between Bran and his siblings and more between Bran and Tyrion (without cutting away) where he talks about his experiences and why they were important. We could have seen more characters interact with Bran and express interest and fascination in his journey. This could have set up his eventual coronation a bit better in my opinion.

      But as we don’t have that, I’m trying to piece together stuff that we do know from the show/books. This is one of the better videos I’ve seen digging into why Bran is king, and asking the question on whether he manipulated events to make it happen:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWC-8qQp-qI

      I encourage people to watch the video if they haven’t already, but in short, the video argues that time in GoT is a “closed loop”. i.e. What was going to happen was always going to happen, so that means that Bran was only doing what needed to be done to make the inevitable happen. If that’s true, that wouldn’t really make him evil.

      Again, I wish the show went deeper into giving hints about this, so we’ll see how the books tackle this.

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    102. Enharmony1625,

      “…I was imagining earlier today that there could have been a series of meaty scenes between Bran and his siblings and more between Bran and Tyrion (without cutting away) where he talks about his experiences and why they were important.”

      _______
      I suppose the please “without cutting away” condenses my frustration with some of the scenes in S8.

      We knew Tyrion decided to have a chat with Bran, but they cut away before we heard any of their conversation. We saw Jon about to tell Sansa and Arya about the truth of his parentage, but they cut away before we saw him disclose it or their reactions. We saw Melisandre give Arya a pep talk, repeating Syrio’s rhetorical question, “What do we say to the god of death” and Arya answering “Not today” as she marched off, but they cut away before we saw where she was going or what she was doing – until the surprise “Gotcha!” takedown of NK. And in S7e7 if soon became apparent that the Stark sisters and Bran caught onto LF’s shenanigans, but I would’ve enjoyed being in on the ambush rather than being left in the dark all for the sake of a “Gotcha!” moment.

      Perhaps it’s just my preference for meaningful dialogue over spectacle and surprise. And I understand that in some instances writers are apparently reluctant to have characters convey to each other information the audience already knows.* Even so, if game-changing revelations are occurring. I’d like to hear and see them, and not guess what was said later.

      * Example (if I may reference my favorite scene in my favorite episode yet again): In S4e7, Sandor told Arya about Gregor burning his face when he was a boy. We already heard that story from LF in S1. So did Arya. Still, that scene in S4e7 was unforgettable. Some editor with a red pen could have slashed and cut that scene as redundant to save a few minutes. And that would’ve been a shame.

      As it is, the fandom is left trying to fill in the gaps in Bran’s story, and wondering if he knew things in advance. Cryptically telling characters mumbo jumbo like “you’re exactly where you’re supposed to be”, and then hinting he wouldn’t have traveled all the way to the dragon pit for nothing, just left a bunch of question marks and head-scratching. As it was, it was frustrating that he didn’t timely share critical information, eg in S7 not telling Sansa that he’d “seen” their MIA sister at the Crossroads Inn; and apparently not bothering to look back at LF’s track record or not saying anything to his sisters about it while LF was engaged in that dumb plan to get the sisters to turn against each other.

      If Bran was this omniscient wizard who really “saw” everything happening all over the world and could visit past events, then show him using those powers. Don’t have him sit around and mumble Zen platitudes to people. I really wanted to be impressed with his powers, and learn what Tyrion learned. It would’ve added logical weight to the election of “Bran the Broken.”
      Otherwise, it was hard to fault people like the Citadel maesters who dismissed Bran’s WW warning as nonsense from a crippled boy talking to a magic bird.

      Plus, there were other people at that dragonpit conclave who had better “stories” than Bran’s. (*cough* Arya *cough*).
      PS I won’t even get into the flimsy reason why NK was targeting Bran, or the silliness of the Bran Bait Plan.

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    103. Onedon,

      Lena did not do anything this year so she is out.

      Yeah I so don’t get that – world class talent, left to glower from the tower window, wine glass in hand. They couldn’t have found something she could say or do? Same with Arya – they couldn’t have found opportunity for her and Gendry to make googly eyes at each other during the council session?

      Meraxes,

      If I could sum up my experience watching this last two seasons it would be with the phrase “Wasted potential”.

      exactly. they could have spent the last two seasons showing tantalizing evidence of Brans omnipresent brain bit by bit so by the end it would be ‘oh yeah, sure bran, instead of “Bran? (btw why did the put broken as a moniker. he is in a wheelchair because his legs don’t work. We don’t know if he can have kids, we dont know what he is capable of (and if he knew about the coming genocide but put pieces in place so that he was the actual LF figure in all this, then we sure as heck dont want him there) We needed some clues, like we had clues of Dany long long before now.

      Ten Bears,

      We knew Tyrion decided to have a chat with Bran, but they cut away before we heard any of their conversation.

      I was really flumoxed when at least some of the conversation didn’t come to light. Im sure Tyrion got quite a bit of interesting tidbits, but he couldn’t share? Or – did D&D have writer block and honestly had no way to explain why and how Bran had special qualities and knowledge (and what is a 3 eye raven anyway? was that something also created by the COTF to counter the NK? Nobody asked what thi s meant and nobody volunteered anything. Pity, because in the other room we were finding all sorts of interesting things about those folks through chatting (Im with you, give me solid dialogue ; I know you are supposed to show and not tell but that works in books, not really on the screen)

      And everything you said about jon is true, should have fought with GW, and then packed his bags, said adios, and rode off into the sunset (well north west)

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    104. Enharmony1625,

      The closed loop theory reminds me of the philosophy papers I’ve read about the illusion of free will. If you’re not familiar with the concept, it’s the idea that everything that happens, and every decision you make, is predestined. That our life experiences are simply a culmination of all the other events around us.

      A frequently debated question in illusion of free will circles is, if you knew the future, could you change it, interrupting this linked chain of events? The answer is yes, and no. Yes, because you could alter what might have happened, no because those changes you would be inclined to make are already predestined by the very fact that you are making a decision. A little confusing and a bit wackadoodle, right?

      In Bran’s case, let’s say he did know exactly how the future was going to play out. Could have have changed it? Certainly. But if he knew how one future would turn out, wouldn’t he also be able to see how alternate futures would resolve? What if, for the sake of argument, the future that happened was the best of the possible futures. What if it was best for the realm, and best for his family? Perhaps in other scenarios fewer people died in the short term, but the realm fell into chaos and civil war? Or perhaps in other scenarios Jon and Arya and Sansa all died?

      While I’m not a free will illusionist (i actually believe life is more random, not less), in this scenario the concept is bringing me some solace because while I really didn’t like robot Bran, I hate to think he turned evil.

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    105. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      Well, your “best of all possible futures” scenario would explain that weird look and hand gesture when Bran gave Arya the VS dagger… almost as if he knew he were setting in motion a particular future.

      The other aspect of Bran’s “powers” is that he kept saying they weren’t refined yet; he was only seeing fragments. So perhaps he just had a general “feeling” or a glimpse of something that gave him a premonition Arya should and wouid use that VS dagger for something important (and not just slashing LF’s throat; she would’ve used a chicken bone to do that if she had to).

      Not sure if he ever achieved 100% clarity…

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    106. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      I think you are right: Bran’s (end) story is about predestination and free will. I’m not sure along which lines exactly lines, and since I’m not much into philosophy or theology, I can’t word it easily. I don’t think Bran *intended* to be king, nor even that he can clearly see the future (only some glimpses, not knowing whether they are future reality, symbols, prophecies, echoes of the past,…). “The ink is dry”: you can’t change the past, so you’re exactly were you were meant to be, is what he keeps saying. But the future is not written yet. He gives information about the past or the present, but doesn’t give advice for the future (“it’s your choice”).
      Not in a “predestination” or “fatality” way, ie because of some LoL plan or pre-written future, but because the past builds the present (not the future: there are choices and free will). But predestination or destiny is an optical illusion (it’s what you see only when it’s over); and so are prophecies (they prove right or wrong only when things have or have not happened, though they can influence the characters’ actions). “Why do you think I came etc” I interpret as just the same sentence applied to himself (being there gives sense, in retrospect, to my being there, because it gives us a choice we wouldn’t have if I were not there). Same for “the best story”: it can only be the “best” story because of the end they decide together to give it. And it doesn’t contradict Bran saying he won’t be Lord of Winterfell. That was what his birth predestined him to be (last surviving Stark son); he chose, somehow, to be no longer a Stark, but the 3ER; he had his own crossroads when he passed the Wall. This, as a *consequence*, enables him to end the “blood monarchy destiny” (though it did not happen *in order* to end it). Sorry, that’s me struggling with my thoughts and with English…

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    107. Enharmony1625:
      Ten Bears,

      Don’t get me wrong, my biggest criticism of the finale is the lack of proper buildup and explanation for why Bran is King and why he should be King.

      Well, according to Tywin, wisdom makes the best king. Who’s wiser than the 3 Eyed Raven?

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    108. Tron79,

      Isn’t that the show with Ruth Wilson? From Luther and the Affair? She’s brilliant, one of the best out there.

      Tron79,

      And we didn’t saw Jaime being the good guy in season 1, and go on the list. People change.

      And as for Dany, she did change the world into a better place as she put it, she liberated KL. In her mind she made the world a better place a place where the people who follow her way of a good world are alive and the once who doesn’t want that world can perish. She even stated that sentence in season 5: They can live in my world, or die in their old one.
      The people of KL didn’t want to live in her old world, so they needed to die in their old one. Those people were guilty in her mind for following and still following after Dany liberated the city, the system that Cersei put in place, they needed to go, or else they could bring down her new system.

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    109. Ten Bears: I’ve learned my lesson. I’m going to cancel HBO, and if another promising series comes along, I’ll wait until it’s concluded before I (binge) watch the whole thing.

      If “His Dark Materials” turns out to be a hit, I’ll catch it when it’s over. Same thing with the GoT prequel.

      I think I may do a rewatch of Star Trek: The Next Generation. 178 episodes from 1987-1994. It’s been a long, long time, yet I remember that with few exceptions the episodes were really good – and the two-part series finale was excellent.

      Yep. This is almost exactly where I stand. I will now catch any new series when they are over.

      I loved Next Generation. The series explored fascinating issues. The ending was fitting, satisfying, made sense and was consistent with the characters we knew over the years. I was sad it ended (and the ending may or may not have had the storyline that I may have selected) but I loved it because it was deeply true to itself and its audience. I may not have the time to rewatch all of it but I will certainly try. Unlike another series, “ahem” , that I am trying to scrub off myself in a similar way that Lady Macbeth was scrubbing away.

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    110. Young Dragon,

      No not surprise to hope, more surprise wtf ending of the NK to a sense of bigger doom. It comes down to Arya making it on time to end the NK (which the fans who hated to see the NK go that soon would have been more okay with it) or they all die. Having Jon there would have made that more excited.

      It would feel more like the RW where you already sensed Walder had a plan and you couldn’t put your mind to it what it was, or more hardhome where we sensed the dead were coming but it took a moment before we got there. It also would have mirrored the WW in 1×01, now Arya took that role into running through the woods, and the NK was her target, instead of WW targeting humans.

      GoT always worked when they build up the demise of a character or enemy. instead of just out of the blue. Look for instance to Cersei and Dany you could sense their time was at and end, did that make it worse that it took half an episode before it happened? For me it upgraded it.

      What happened now was that fans didn’t really care for Bran so they didn’t care if Bran was going to die, then we defeat the NK later on in the season right? Then comes Arya and end the NK, for me that last 10 seconds were the only part that I felt excited in that sequence and the dead of Theon. I didn’t care if the NK would have killed Bran then. If they had Arya move through the godswood I would personally have been exicted for Arya who puts herself in danger and if Jon would have been there and almost been killed it would have upgraded the excitement also. This was a huge problem people were having with episode 3 that Arya was gone for 30 minutes, even when Melisandre told Arya to kill the NK almost all the watchers knew she was going for it, and then nothing till the last 30 seconds. The surprise wasn’t really a surprise, so why go with it instead of building the excitement more like GoT did in the past, not by surprise but by showing what will go down. We all knew at the RW that once the door closed that the shit was going to hit the fan, they should have gone for something like that here.

      And thanks, I really though what was missing in the season, and I wondered how much there was exactly needed, people talked about we needed to have 4 episodes more or 2 seasons. And I wanted to find out if that was true, and I found that only 60 minutes was needed, roughly 10 minutes per episodes. roughly 15% more.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Young Dragon: Well, according to Tywin, wisdom makes the best king. Who’s wiser than the 3 Eyed Raven?

      Access to lots of stored information and wisdom are not the same thing.

      In fact, the series gave several examples that would not lead you to conclude that Bran was wise. He was almost depicted as a high functioning autistic with very little feeling/sense for the human experience. See his comment about Sansa’s wedding night. See Meera. See how he spoke with Jon (or not!) about his parentage.

        Quote  Reply

    112. ash,

      Nobody is telling them to add scenes, I was just having fun with looking at what all the fuss was about with the ones who didn’t like season 8 and made up some scenes that I though would have change their this season is 1 to this season is a 10.

      And I wanted to know if that assessment that they needed 10 episodes was really true, was only for my own curiosity. and what I found was that it didn’t need 10 episodes. but in fact maybe just one extra, and the final 15 minutes longer. So that took the argument of that it needed 10 episodes into more perspective, because those were to much.

      So no, nobody is saying, go shoot those scenes again, just having fun with analyzing what people are saying. And I always like making up stories in my mind. But I said that even in that post, that this is just for fun and not serious for HBO to do.

      ps. But maybe we should make those scenes, even if it’s just for Emilia, I read she really wants to shoot some extra scenes. GoT meant the world to her, I think she is really the most excited actress on the show about her moments with GoT

        Quote  Reply

    113. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      But still, it would have felt more like GoT, showing what was happening. And they could have gone with a 6×08 arya moment. Having her being attacked by wights in the godswood, letting us feel that she is not going to make it, Jon is there to save the day. We think oh good Jon is going to do that Job. Oh no Jon is almost dying, oh damn arya is still on time the end.

      But just speculating, I liked what season 8 brought us and how they did it.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      – True, Robert Baratheon died by a boar.
      – Ned not taking Renly’s advice by taking the city.
      – Cat falling for LF trap by imprisoning Tyrion.
      – Robb thinking Walder would just forgive everything.

      etc people were dumb before, but people expect them to be the smartest out there in season 8

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    115. Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,

      “…I was imagining earlier today that there could have been a series of meaty scenes between Bran and his siblings and more between Bran and Tyrion (without cutting away) where he talks about his experiences and why they were important.”

      _______I suppose the please “without cutting away” condenses my frustration with some of the scenes in S8.

      We knew Tyrion decided to have a chat with Bran, but they cut away before we heard any of their conversation. We saw Jon about to tell Sansa and Arya about the truth of his parentage, but they cut away before we saw him disclose it or their reactions. We saw Melisandre give Arya a pep talk, repeating Syrio’s rhetorical question, “What do we say to the god of death” and Arya answering “Not today” as she marched off, but they cut away before we saw where she was going or what she was doing – until the surprise “Gotcha!” takedown of NK. And in S7e7 if soon became apparent that the Stark sisters and Bran caught onto LF’s shenanigans, but I would’ve enjoyed being in on the ambush rather than being left in the dark all for the sake of a “Gotcha!” moment.

      Perhaps it’s just my preference for meaningful dialogue over spectacle and surprise. And I understand that in some instances writers are apparently reluctant to have characters convey to each other information the audience already knows.* Even so, if game-changing revelations are occurring. I’d like to hear and see them, and not guess what was said later.

      * Example (if I may reference my favorite scene in my favorite episode yet again): In S4e7, Sandor told Arya about Gregor burning his face when he was a boy. We already heard that story from LF in S1. So did Arya. Still, that scene in S4e7 was unforgettable. Some editor with a red pen could have slashed and cut that scene as redundant to save a few minutes. And that would’ve been a shame.

      As it is, the fandom is left trying to fill in the gaps in Bran’s story, and wondering if he knew things in advance. Cryptically telling characters mumbo jumbo like “you’re exactly where you’re supposed to be”, and then hinting he wouldn’t have traveled all the way to the dragon pit for nothing, just left a bunch of question marks and head-scratching. As it was, it was frustrating that he didn’t timely share critical information, eg in S7 not telling Sansa that he’d “seen” their MIA sister at the Crossroads Inn; and apparently not bothering to look back at LF’s track record or not saying anything to his sisters about it while LF was engaged in that dumb plan to get the sisters to turn against each other.

      If Bran was this omniscient wizard who really “saw” everything happening all over the world and could visit past events, then show him using those powers. Don’t have him sit around and mumble Zen platitudes to people. I really wanted to be impressed with his powers, and learn what Tyrion learned. It would’ve added logical weight to the election of “Bran the Broken.”
      Otherwise, it was hard to fault people like the Citadel maesters who dismissed Bran’s WW warning as nonsense from a crippled boy talking to a magic bird.

      Plus, there were other people at that dragonpit conclave who had better “stories” than Bran’s. (*cough* Arya *cough*). PS I won’t even get into the flimsy reason why NK was targeting Bran, or the silliness of the Bran Bait Plan.

      Lots of truth here!

        Quote  Reply

    116. ash,

      Don’t worry, we all are sick of those negative basement dwellers. Personally I had enough of that as well, especially when they come with dumb arguments why the ending was bad, or asking questions that should have been answered.
      (Still can’t go over one I know asking me why they didn’t answer which kingdoms are in the 6 kingdoms)

        Quote  Reply

    117. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      Isn’t that the show with Ruth Wilson? From Luther and the Affair? She’s brilliant, one of the best out there.

      Tron79,

      And we didn’t saw Jaime being the good guy in season 1, and go on the list. People change.

      And as for Dany, she did change the world into a better place as she put it, she liberated KL. In her mind she made the world a better place a place where the people who follow her way of a good world are alive and the once who doesn’t want that world can perish. She even stated that sentence in season 5: They can live in my world, or die in their old one.
      The people of KL didn’t want to live in her old world, so they needed to die in their old one. Those people were guilty in her mind for following and still following after Dany liberated the city, the system that Cersei put in place, they needed to go, or else they could bring down her new system.

      Re: Ruth Wilson…Yes, that’s the show (His Dark Materials). I had to do a double take during the HBO promo because the girl (Dafne Keen) had a slight resemblance to Arya and HBO didn’t spend as much time on those clips as they did their other shows. I had to do my own promo breakdown to figure out which show those clips were from. I already worry a bit that by the time they get to season two Dafne Keen may have aged alot! It looks like they shot season one at least a year ago, but they did already sign for a season 2. I know this isn’t a “His Dark Materials” thread, but it had some intriguing fantasy elements and a strong British cast, so I for one am interested to see how it goes. The HBO release is “sometime before the end of 2019″… so it’s another show that could have a long wait time considering shooting has been done for a quite awhile, so plenty of time to discuss (and wait and hopefully not wait too long!)

      Re: Dany…
      I’m actually just going with the IT=P LOTR theme. I see your points that in Dany’s mind she’s making a better world by frying those who don’t agree with her new world, but to me I thought her thinking changed drastically once she got close to the IT. Yes, she had elements of what you’re saying before then, but once she gets within reach of the IT, that’s went it became P and she totally lost it. That being said, I’m ready to let it go and watch it for what it is now. I think none of my awesome fan theories happened over the years!! I’m totally frustrated that not one theory turned out to be correct, and I had some great theories too! But I’m going to have to let them all go. It may never totally sit right and I may always want changes to make things work better (in my mind), but I can appreciate now that they were trying to draw a literal LOTR parallel (even with a similar melting of the IT as with the melting of P).

        Quote  Reply

    118. Ten Bears,

      Let’s make that Arya Sandor episode happening.

      Ten Bears,

      the 3-eyed-manipulator.

      But what if he tried to stop it. He talked to Tyrion in episode 2. What if he told Tyrion about it.

      And what if he can’t see the future but only if he taps in the weir wood tree he can sense flashed. He could maybe saw the destruction of KL at the moment it happened but not before, and after that he tapped into the weirwood tree to see if Arya and Jon survived and he saw a flesh that he needed to be king to give his family the best outcome.

      Or what if he can sense the future but there is a rule that a 3ER needs to behold, you can’t change what’s already written, the ink is dry. Meaning that if he changed the outcome of Dany burning KL the result would maybe be even more catastrophic, like time is not stuck in it’s place anymore.

      Damn I get a headache just to think about what it could be.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Enharmony1625,

      A bit like dr who, he also had to make choices to let people die even when he didn’t want to, because the alternative would be more bad, reality would collapse. I think it’s a bit like that.

      Ten Bears,

      You’re the same as me with that, I really hate “gotcha” moments. The red wedding wasn’t a gotcha moment, and that made it perfect. It build up for 10 minutes. Once the door closed we felt the horror that was going to befall. We were in denial but we knew, and once it happened the excitement was the greater. And I think that Gotcha moments is something they avoided in the past because it was too hollywood like. GoT was better because they didn’t result in such moments.

      Look at the bells for instance, what made that episode so great for me that it wasn’t a gotcha moment. Maybe the snap of Dany, but really that wasn’t a gotcha moment. You saw her face changing, her moments before. We knew Cersei was going to die midway of the episode even when she died at the end. Still her last moments were great even when we knew it was going to happen. Same with Dany in the final. It wasn’t a gotcha moment, we knew it was going to happen, but it did happen around 50 minutes, and still those 50 minutes were excited and amazing.

      Look at LotR which is still by many (even me) being praised as the best fantasy story out there on screen, why? because it never use a single gotcha moment. (except once, the I’m no man part, but still we knew the witch king was going to die no matter what so that wasn’t that bad)

        Quote  Reply

    120. ash,

      About Lena: They should have shown a wedding between her and Euron, and a scene with her and Missandei.

      About Bran: I think even one sentence in episode 7, the one that I though of would be enough. Show us the Starks going south, it could make us excited if we knew Sansa was marching with an army, making it clear she cared for Jon. We’re going to take my brother back home. Or something. And we could have had a moment where Bran stated that the army is not needed, that the war is over and a new king will be crowned, and I need to be there for that to happen. With a hint of Bran talking about himself.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Tron79,

      But of course the IT=P. The whole point of the ring in LoTR is power, the one with the ring is in fact the king of the world showing the world his or hers power and his or hers world view to the world.

      Same with the IT. The only difference is that the IT is more something of our world, realistic, we had people kill over a throne for ages. The ring is more magical.

      And about ruth wilson, I hope the serie is brilliant, I would love to see her again into another show. I hope she get nominated for her last season of the affair, because I think she will get the best actress award if it was up to me.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Ten Bears,

      I totally agree! The cutaway from Arya and Sansa’s reaction to Jon’s news is still a source of frustration with me, and the director’s explanation (that we’ve heard this news already) is BS. Seeing characters react to such important information is character development, as you so rightly point out with that wonderful scene in 4×07 between Arya and Sandor. Sure, we generally know how Arya and Sansa feel about the news now (Arya still calls Jon her brother at the Dragon Pit council scene), but seeing a progression from the initial reaction to resolving their feelings of how they see their father and the sacrifice he made to keep this secret is character development.

      Despite these frustrations, I guess I’m also very forgiving because it doesn’t break the ending for me. I can still find a lot to love about the ending, mostly on an emotional level. I’ve always been like that. 🙂 Though there is plenty to criticize about the Lost ending, I still loved how it ended for the most part.

        Quote  Reply

    123. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      It’s a fascinating topic. It reminds me of the “10th dimension” theory. I read a lot about this many years ago, and it basically is about infinite timelines coexisting at once. As you said about the possibility of many predestined fates or outcomes, here there are an infinite set of timelines of the universe that we, sort of.. “hop” between. In other words, imagine an infinite set of parallel lines representing the universe’s timelines. We can only go forward, but choices make us hop from one line to another. At least that’s how I remember it.. it’s been awhile since I read up on this. 🙂

      I can’t say I really buy into this theory, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Ten Bears,
      Mango,

      To each their own of course, and everyone has the right to consume their entertainment on their terms. The only thing I would say, though, is if you ended up never watching GoT because of that, you would miss out on an incredible cast of characters and all the great episodes it does have.

      I mean, it’s one thing if a series has a slow, steady, and obvious decline, but as Ten Bears has said many times, even if GoT flubs a few episodes here and there, 95% of it is amazing. Maybe for you and others, the finale is part of the 5%, but is that worth giving up the other 95%? Or does the finale itself completely nullify the whole series?

      Let’s say for the sake of argument that I absolutely hated the finale (I didn’t) — I would still love the show as a whole, and would be enormously grateful for introducing me to a great cast of characters that had me hugely invested in them for years, and all the time I spent discussing the show with family, friends, and the fan community.

      Furthermore, given that one of the main complaints about the ending is about Bran being king without proper setup or explanation, we can at least say (selfishly for us ASNAWP fans) that they did Arya right! It’s almost universal (as far as I’ve seen) that fans agree that Arya had the best arc in season 8, and thus one of the best arcs of the whole series. So if none of us watched this show because we heard the ending was disappointing, there would be no ASNAWP in our lives. That would be a shame! So for me, regardless of how the ending turned out, I would always be grateful for giving me one of the best characters (and best duo w/ Sandor!) on TV.

        Quote  Reply

    125. kevin1989:
      Enharmony1625,
      A bit like dr who, he also had to make choices to let people die even when he didn’t want to, because the alternative would be more bad, reality would collapse. I think it’s a bit like that.

      Yeah, that’s how I’m choosing to interpret it. Bran/3ER isn’t evil, but he did what he saw needed to be done.

        Quote  Reply

    126. kevin1989,

      Agree regarding the “gotcha” moments. Ned’s execution is another example. That was not a “gotcha” moment either. It had quite a lot of buildup, and many hints that it would happen, but we expect (due to the way these things usually go) that he’ll get out of it somehow or get saved at the last minute. But nope.. down comes the sword.

      That kind of storytelling could really have benefitted scenes/plotlines like the LF execution.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Enharmony1625,

      and they didn’t have to show the whole revelation again, they could have do it he way many tv show does. shorten the revelation, like some time passes, and just show some reactions on their faces. “Rheagal and Lyanna were in love… Jon is not Ned’s bastard he’s Aegon Targaryen.”
      Sansa: “So you can take the Iron Throne, Jon!”
      Jon: ” I don’t want it.”

      They don’t need to show the whole revelation, just snippets.

        Quote  Reply

    128. kevin1989,

      my apologies didn’t mean to go after you. That first sentence just pushed a button that had been blinking for a long time. You were simply specualting and I had already heard about people wanting to replay. Plus I had the sinus infection from hell on my last week of teaching and was already depressed about leaving my school.. I should not have posted in that state! Thank you tho for taking time to explain, I appreciate that. I appreciate your posts

        Quote  Reply

    129. ash,

      Hopefully you’re better soon. And I’m the same with you. Done with the hate. Damn even if the last season wasn’t what we expected it to be and things missing (even earlier seasons missed things imo). Can’t we just not appreciate what D&D and the cast and crew gave us these 8 years. I’m proud of them. And I hope star wars will be as amazing as got was under their wing.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Enharmony1625:
      Ten Bears,

      I totally agree! The cutaway from Arya and Sansa’s reaction to Jon’s news is still a source of frustration with me, and the director’s explanation (that we’ve heard this news already) is BS. Seeing characters react to such important information is character development, as you so rightly point out with that wonderful scene in 4×07 between Arya and Sandor. Sure, we generally know how Arya and Sansa feel about the news now (Arya still calls Jon her brother at the Dragon Pit council scene), but seeing a progression from the initial reaction to resolving their feelings of how they see their father and the sacrifice he made to keep this secret is character development.

      I don’t see how they would be effected by the news, though. I knew that they wouldn’t see Jon differently and that he would always be their brother. As for Ned, you might have a point if Sansa or Arya gave any indication during the course of the series that they were upset with their father for dishonoring their mother, but they weren’t. They didn’t seem to care. In their eyes Ned was perfect and was their hero. Danerys and Jon were the two who would most be effected by the news, and their reaction was all that was needed, imo.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Enharmony1625,

      You are right.
      There were story lines and characters in prior seasons that didn’t thrill me, like the High Sparrow, a surfeit of Ramsay torture porn, the Sansa vs. Arya vs. LF S7 nonsense (anything LF, for that matter), Sansa concealing KotV, and Euron the extraneous cackling clown.

      That does NOT mean I don’t cherish every fantastic scene with Sandor and Arya. She was S8’s MVP.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Mango,

      Re-Posting Attempt (Part 1)

      On 5-26-19 at 7:21 am, Mango wrote:
      “I loved Next Generation. The series explored fascinating issues. The ending was fitting, satisfying, made sense and was consistent with the characters we knew over the years. I was sad it ended (and the ending may or may not have had the storyline that I may have selected) but I loved it because it was deeply true to itself and its audience.”
      ______________
      reply in Part 2 et seq., I hope…

        Quote  Reply

    133. Mango,

      Reply, Part 2

      ______________

      • The ending of STNG was great.

      Q (John de Lancie) was my favorite character, and he was in the two-past series premiere and in the two-part series finale. Bouncing Picard between the past, present and future to help him solve the riddle and avoid destroying humanity

      was a neat, tidy ending that bookended the two-part series premiere.

      (Segue to ASNAWP follows.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Mango,

      Reply Part 3

      Star Trek: The Next Generation ran eight seasons, 178 episodes, from 1987-1994. The title of the two-part series finale in 1994 was “All Good Things”, derived of course from the saying “All good things must come to an end.” The title conveyed a sense of finality, for the series and for Captain Picard’s exploration of the vast unknown and his own humanity.
      However, as you have probably heard, Patrick Stewart (now 78 years old) is going to be reprising his role as Picard in a new Star Trek series set to begin airing late this year (2019) on CBS All Access, with a ten-episode season. The first teaser was released yesterday, along with the names of the supporting cast.
      That’ll be 25 years after we last saw Captain Picard in a Star Trek TV series.

      I bring this up because in interviews
      Maisie Williams has expressed gratitude for the opportunity to appear in GoT and the financial security that came with it, but now that it’s concluded she’s excited about having the free time to do whatever she wants to do. She’s acted on stage and in films, is involved in charitable causes, started the “daisie app”, and seems to be well-grounded.

      After she’s had time to “breathe”, I’m really hoping that somebody creative proposes a sequel that would entice her to reprise her role as Arya. Season 8 left her character’s future wide open as captain of her own ship, headed out to explore the unknown frontier. (“Let’s see what’s out there”, as another Captain said in his first episode.)

      So maybe not now, maybe not in the near future, but perhaps in five years or so we’ll see Arya again. The fan base is clamoring for it. There’s a built-in audience. With fresh writers and a virtually infinite number of possible story lines, it’s almost a no-brainer. Who wouldn’t want to see what Arya finds as she explores her world’s final frontier?

      “To boldly go where No One has gone before.” 👸🏻⛵️

      Just back up a Brink’s truck stuffed with $10,000,000 cash and well-polished scripts to Maisie’s front door in a few years. Make her an offer she can’t refuse, e.g., executive producer credit, massive up-front signing bonus, and a % of the gross.

      If Patrick Stewart could be induced to come back as Captain (Admiral) Picard after 25 years, why not Maisie Williams as Captain Arya Stark of the S.S. Direwolf after 5 or 6?

      – End ASNAWP Fanboy Wishful Thinking Detour

        Quote  Reply

    135. Ten Bears,

      This is definetly fan thinking re Arya. Let us see if that happens!

      Of course, we could simply ask Bran what is west of Westeros, right?

      Yes, I see Picard is returning. I am happy/curious but am a bit nervous that they will spoil a good thing. I will certainly take a look it starts!. Patrick is such a good actor anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Ten Bears:
      Mango,

      “To boldly go where No One has gone before.” 👸🏻⛵️

      Love this!!

      (Btw a variation of the no one theme played briefly as Arya set sail on SS Stark. It was a section of the “last of the starks” track. Hearing her theme made me smile. )

        Quote  Reply

    137. Mango,

      I’m keeping HBO until the Deadwood movie (binging the show again for old times sake and loving every second).

        Quote  Reply

    138. Mango:
      Ten Bears,

      This is definetly fan thinking re Arya.Let us see if that happens!

      Of course, we could simply ask Bran what is west of Westeros, right?

      Yes, I see Picard is returning. I am happy/curious but am a bit nervous that they will spoil a good thing. I will certainly take a look it starts!. Patrick is such a good actor anyway.

      Just to hop on the Trek talk (my first great TV love and the most enduring of my TV loves has always been Stark Trek and TNG is my favourite of them all). I am very nervous about Picard returning. Patrick Stewart would only return if his character was very different to how he was before, or had very different storylines, something to that effect. I think his new show will be a dark one 😢

        Quote  Reply

    139. Che,

      Lordy! I suppose it is reasonable that as an actor he wants a different character from the role he played for so long. But as a viewer, I sort of want back the Picard I knew before. Whatever – as long it is well done, we should be Ok.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Tron79,

      I have no ear for music. I cannot distinguish one character’s “theme” from another. I cannot recognize any distinctive tracks. I just never had the ear or aptitude for music I guess.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Ten Bears,

      Or her last scene with Jon. Damn near broke my heart. Her eyes filling with tears and the longing in her eyes not only for distant shores but the desire to stay close to the brother who understood her the most. A week later and I’m still sniveling over it. 😓

        Quote  Reply

    142. Mango,

      I wouldn’t think Patrick Stewart will play Picard as a “different” character – though obviously he’s decades older and as with most humans, he’s evolved and shaped by his experiences during the intervening years. (Speaking for myself, I feel like I’m the same person I was when I was twelve, although that younger version was much more intelligent, and my current self is much crankier and narrow-minded.)

      The interesting thing is that Patrick Stewart twice played elderly versions of Picard during ST:TNG:

      In one episode, “The Inner Light”, some alien probe left behind by a dying planet’s long-since extinct civilization caused him to “experience” living his entire adult life through old age – 40 years – as an inhabitant of the planet, while his real self was unconscious for only a few hours. I think that episode won a Hugo Award in 1993.

      The other episode was the two-part serirs finale “All Good Things” in which Picard finds himself spontaneously “jumping” between three points in time in his life: the present-day; seven years earlier right before his first mission; and 25 years in the future when he’s an old man retired to his vineyard in France. That two-part episode also won a Hugo Award, in 1995. Patrick Stewart convincingly played an elderly man who has to persuade his former crew mates to help him investigate an empty patch of space where an anomaly once existed, while also struggling to convince them he wasn’t suffering from delusions or dementia.

      Since the new series teaser shows him walking through his vineyard, I don’t see how his character can be much different. And after his success (and $$) playing Prof. Xavier in the X-Men films, I doubt Patrick Stewart would reprise his role as Picard unless the stories and scripts were top notch.

      I guess we’ll find out soon enough. However, I’d have to think if his current “Picard” is dark and depressing, the producers would realize nobody would want to watch the new series, and Patrick Stewart wouldn’t want to betray the humanist, optimistic Picard of the original series. The potential for suckage is too great to fiddle around with his elemental character.

      (I guess I gotta sign up and pay for CBS All Access if I want to watch it. And Amazon Prime if I want to watch “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.” And Netflix for “Stranger Things”, “Orange is the New Black”, and every other buzzworthy show I’ve been missing while paying through the nose for HBO,)

        Quote  Reply

    143. MotherofWolves,

      I wish she’d told Jon she wouldn’t be gone indefinitely and she’d sail up to Eastwatch by the Sea to visit him after her first voyage.

      I’m a sap. After they spent so many years apart, it was sad that they were parting again so soon. It was nice that S8 ended without any of the four Starks getting killed, and yet they’re now all separated spread out all over the world. I suppose if the dreaded b———t word has to apply to their family, this wasn’t such a terrible outcome.

      I think I’ll go watch my “mix tape” of Jon giving Arya Needle in S1e2, + Arya showing Jon she still has Needle in S8e1(?). 😢

        Quote  Reply

    144. Tron79,

      “To boldly go where No One has gone before.” 👸🏻⛵️

      Love this!!

      (Btw a variation of the no one theme played briefly as Arya set sail on SS Stark. It was a section of the “last of the starks” track. Hearing her theme made me smile. )
      ________
      I was focused on the visual aspects, and trying to freeze frame shots of the direwolf carved into the ship’s prow; the Stark direwolf sigil on the mainsail; and Arya herself on the deck in what I assume was an intentional callback to the very last scene in S4e10 when she was sailing off to Braavos.

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    145. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      “To boldly go where No One has gone before.”

      Love this!!

      (Btw a variation of the no one theme played briefly as Arya set sail on SS Stark. It was a section of the “last of the starks” track. Hearing her theme made me smile. )
      ________I was focused on the visual aspects, and trying to freeze frame shots of the direwolf carved into the ship’s prow; the Stark direwolf sigil on the mainsail; and Arya herself on the deck in what I assume was an intentional callback to the very last scene in S4e10 when she was sailing off to Braavos.

      Yes, definitely a call back, and the scene S4E10 is still one of my favorites of the whole series as she finally is on her own making her way to Bravos. But I do really get into the music. I happen to be a choir director at the synagogue where I work (besides teaching things like “Everything I learned about Judaism I learned from Star Trek”) and I’ve composed choral pieces since the 90’s. I also worked on a computer game prototype and I wrote the soundtrack for it. Speaking of Maisie, I signed up for her Daisie app to perhaps collaborate on a movie score sometime down the road, but I don’t think I’m good enough yet to really collaborate yet (and I wish I had the time to commit to those kinds of projects!! Which I don’t at the moment). I know you said you don’t pickup on the music themes as much, but for me, I literally can’t help it. My wife gets annoyed with me when I keep pointing out the music that is playing in the restaurant instead of paying attention to the conversation.

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    146. Mango,

      Wisdom requires knowledge and experience, and Bran has access to all the knowledge and experience of all of Westeros. What you’re talking about is people skills, which, granted, Bran lacked in season 7, but he’s much better in season 8. His scenes with Jaime and Theon prove it.

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    147. Tron79,

      An Arya spinoff is the direction HBO needs to go; after a week of contemplation I’ve come to the conclusion, especially after reading literally hundreds of posts on YouTube and blogs that Arya is the numero uno by a really big margin.
      I’m thinking HBO should go the Luther route and have a 5-6 episode story arc once every three years. This gives Maisie 2 plus years between series to film other projects and run her business. Another plus is that Ms Williams besides talent, intellect and beauty is extremely athletic and has pixie traits, the latter is indicative of agelessness, when she’s 40 she easily pass for a twentysomething girl.
      Perhaps each series storyline can revolve around a new place her and her crew encounters as they get caught up in local political intrigue, hired to seek some mythic artifact, defend against evil or solve some mysterious crime (Luther shout out).
      Make it so HBO

        Quote  Reply

    148. Young Dragon:
      Mango,

      Wisdom requires knowledge and experience, and Bran has access to all the knowledge and experience of all of Westeros. What you’re talking about is people skills, which, granted, Bran lacked in season 7, but he’s much better in season 8. His scenes with Jaime and Theon prove it.

      Was it only 6 episodes ago that Bran needed Sam to help him figure out that Jon was the child of Lyanna and Rhaeger? Didn’t he say, Jon Sands?

      In his conversation with Jaime, it was Jaime that was the more mature. What is it he said to Jaime about needing Jaime to help? I do not know what became of that.

      Anyway, GOT did nothing to establish Bran as particularly useful. Tyrion did not claim that Bran was the wisest etc. He said he had the best stories. Huh?

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    149. I guess we have to wait for The Last Watch thread and hardly anybody watched?? I expected a lot more with the cast, but I guess they were told to film stuff and stay out of the way or something. Well that left the door open for Andy McClay to shine as a long time extra. I hope to see him on the prequel now.

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    150. Clob,

      I was wondering the same thing…about a place to post comments about The Last Watch.

      I saw it, I liked it but thought there would be more with the cast. It was fun seeing and focusing on one or two behind the scenes people. But I would have liked more department head interviews, etc. Head of Snow man was fun. I guess that is what the Inside the Episode, The Game Revealed, and other HBO features are for.

      The table read section was good but short. When they showed the clip of the very first table read Maise was so young. And in the last one it was interesting to watch Kit’s reaction to the fact he was the one to kill Dany. Also, the stage direction for Arya killing the NK said she “vaulted off the bodies” of the dead to attack the NK. Interesting…. maybe she had some gymnastics training at the House of Black and White, which actually would have been pretty handy, some parkour, etc. for running and fighting.

      Yes, Andy McClay and Valdimir the NK really had a spotlight on them. Hope it brings them more work.

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    151. Tyjon:
      Tron79,

      An Arya spinoff is the direction HBO needs to go; after a week of contemplation I’ve come to the conclusion, especially after reading literally hundreds of posts on YouTube and blogs that Arya is the numero uno by a really big margin.
      I’m thinking HBO should go the Luther route and have a 5-6 episode story arc once every three years. This gives Maisie 2 plus years between series to film other projects and run her business. Another plus is that Ms Williams besides talent, intellect and beauty is extremely athletic and has pixie traits, the latter is indicative of agelessness, when she’s 40 she easily pass for a twentysomething girl.
      Perhaps each series storyline can revolve around a new place her and her crew encounters as they get caught up in local political intrigue, hired to seek some mythic artifact, defend against evil or solve some mysterious crime (Luther shout out).
      Make it so HBO

      I’m all in. But hearing Maisie’s intereviews, she sounded like she felt a burst of Freedom now that she completed her GOT contract. I’m not sure if she would jump into signing another one even if it was every so many years, but I would be all in to watch her.

      I just finished watching “The Last Watch” documentary. Earlier in this thread there was talk about hoping that Jaqen might show up this season and that tom wlaschiha was spotted in Spain during the dragon pit filming. I speculated he was there for a wrap party, but I was wrong again! He was actually there with Faye Marsay (The Waif) and Kit to be decoys to throw off the fans. I had read that Kit was only there for a short time. He sounded kindof pissed he didn’t get to do a scene while he was there and that he was only there as a decoy.

      I’m not sure how I felt about the documentary yet (well I did have some immediate feelings but alot were negative, so I don’t want to just whinge about it) I’ll have to let it sit for awhile. Some was interesting, and I suppose just like Bryan Cogman wrote his love note to the characters in Episode 2, the documentary filmmaker showed her affection for the crew, the extras, and the people you don’t normally get to see. I suppose I was hoping to see more of the stars and follow them around more too. But it is clear that this was a homage to the crew that doesn’t get seen, and they certainly deserve credit and the spotlight!! As a documentary though, it lost me a few times during the 2 hours and I missed getting to see more of certain people, so I’ll have to revisit it another day….and now it’s becoming real that this was the last footage from GOT, and that’s probably partly what I’m feeling too.

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    152. Clob:
      I guess we have to wait for The Last Watch thread and hardly anybody watched??I expected a lot more with the cast, but I guess they were told to film stuff and stay out of the way or something.Well that left the door open for Andy McClay to shine as a long time extra.I hope to see him on the prequel now.

      Holy crap. I…actually forgot. 😳

      Is Andy McClay “Ser Longbeard”, the northern guy who was wighted and then showed up again in KL anyway?

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    153. Ten Bears,

      Im the same way. I recognize how music makes me feel and what it means to the scene, but aside from it being pitch perfect, I have no idea whose theme it is (that being said I do recognize The Seven for some reason)

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    154. Mango,

      Bran seems to have known knowledge of the past. Im not sure he has absolute knowledge of things currently unknown. Its an interesting question just how far his abilities go.

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    155. BQ: His last “You’re my Queen, now and always” wasn’t a cliché line, but rather a way to lure her into a kiss AND at the same time a heartfelt promise, a last pledge of his love before his betrayal. I found it credible and moving.

      So I’m at this party a little late but I wanted your view on this: I largely agree with your comments but did Jon lure her in with that line? It didn’t seem like he did — at least, he didn’t need to lure her in at that point since Dany already pulled him close before her big, “Be with me! New vision! Just ignore all the rest!” appeal. To me, it felt more like the second part of your statement.

      But what do I know? Like, this is the same show where, in their council scene in which they decide the fates of Jon and Tyrion, they fail to mention the small issue of Dany’s slaughterfest and her little “blood alone moves the wheels of history!” speech 😉

      (When I heard her speech — and it was really well done by Emilia Clarke! — but I thought of The Office’s Dwight when he inadvertently gave Mussolini’s speech upon being named Salesman of the Year ;D)

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    156. onefromaway,

      clob,

      Tron79,

      Pigeon,

      Regarding the documentary “The Last Watch” I’m looking for a place to plant a few comments, too.

      I loved it, by the way… So much so that I’ve written a stupidly long post to paste into comments if there is ever the a chance.

      (I’ll refrain from posting the stupidly long version, because Seven Hells, I can’t help but write it all out and it just keeps growing. I don’t even know if one can post a comment of this length, anyway. My friends and family are so, so over hearing me talk about the show, I need some other outlet!)

      The documentary drives a lot home, the enormity of it all. And for me, a lot of it hit deep, dead center, where sorrow and loss forever lingers.

      And now… Our Watch has ended.

      I know my way out, thanks.

      ::: grabs box of industrial size of tissues, blows out the last candle in window, snags last of the wine by the door, closes door, walks alone into the night, ugly sobbing commences :::

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    157. Mango,

      Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with wisdom. Wisdom is using knowledge and experience to choose the right course of action. He was wise not to tell anyone Jaime pushed him out a window because he knew they would kill him for it and he wouldn’t be able to help them fight the dead. As Jon said, “Every man counts.”

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    158. Young Dragon:
      Mango,

      Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with wisdom. Wisdom is using knowledge and experience to choose the right course of action. He was wise not to tell anyone Jaime pushed him out a window because he knew they would kill him for it and he wouldn’t be able to help them fight the dead. As Jon said, “Every man counts.”

      1) Let us end this exchange and agree to disagree. We differ on what wisdom entails. In my neck of the woods, the essence of wisdom is excellent judgment often born from experience and knowledge. I already pointed out that Bran did not show good judgment in how he handled Jon parentage’s, Meera parting or Sansa’s rape starting on her wedding night. You responded by saying this is “interpersonal skills”. I did not respond directly to that idea in the post as I thought it was bizarre. I thought it better to let your ideas just sit there. Wisdom is many things but you can most clearly see it demonstrated when dealing with human failures, insecurity, crises, pain and need for guidance. Many other topics require technical and professional skill/education. Human matters often need wisdom.

      2) My post on Bran re Jon Sand was simply to point out that Bran even had difficulty handling information. Jon’s parentage was not unknown to humans. Ned knew. Howland Reid knew. The staff at Tower of Joy knew. The septon that married R+L knew of the marriage and it was written at the Citadel. Yet Bran still needed Sam to help him get it sorted. As for the battle – the people at WF did not even know where the AOTD was and when the AOTD was arriving until Tormund told Jon. Bran did not think this was worth tracking after the wall was broken.

      3) I am not sure the exchange with Jaime demonstrated Bran’s “wisdom”. In that case, he was no wiser that Jon, Tyrion, Brienne or anyone else in the room that thought Jaime could help fight.

      4) So if you believe that GOT adequately demonstrated Bran’s wisdom, then fine. The series is done and we can all go over separate ways with our own conclusions. To me, the Bran demonstrated was almost autistic. Mostly murmuring mumbo jumbo. (As we are talking about Next Generation, if Bran had shown powers such Q had, then……)

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    159. Clob,

      I have HBO and it’s not On demand though a few other recent “extras” are but require payment to access. My relatively expensive package includes HBO, everything was always free, but now they want subscribers to pay extra on top of it for behind the scenes bits? Hmm not nice.

        Quote  Reply

    160. ygritte,

      If you want, you can use HBOGO. You don’t need to pay extra for that one.
      It just asks you to put in your cable subscriber (but you do have to know your login for your cable account). HBOGO has all the extras and it has the documentary…

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    161. Mango,

      We were shown nothing of Bran that would make him worthy of being crowned king of Westeros imo. He was mostly a side character in my eyes because of lack of screen time and not given personality. Barely speaks and when he does it come across emotionless. Said a thank you to Theon but not even to the brother” he grew up with who sacrificed much also. Couldn’t even tell Jon of his real parentage himself. Very remote. Unfeeling.

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    162. Mango,

      Ooh! I want to get in on the Bran-bashing too. I’m still ticked off that he “saw” presumed-dead Arya alive and well at the Crossroads Inn (S7e2) but didn’t bother telling Sansa their MIA sister was just fine and getting ready to cross Cersei off “her list of names.”

      Bran? “Wisdom”? I think not.

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    163. Pigeon: Holy crap. I…actually forgot.

      Is Andy McClay “Ser Longbeard”, the northern guy who was wighted and then showed up again in KL anyway?

      I’m sure he’s the one you’re thinking of… He’s been mentioned here before as the extra that also does GoT tour guide stuff. I don’t remember seeing him wighted, but yeah, he is in KL too. One of the few recognizable extras in several scenes starting at the BotB.

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    164. ygritte,

      Tron79: If you want, you can use HBOGO. You don’t need to pay extra for that one.

      Yeah, if you have a cable package with HBO you should have access to HBO Go on HBO Go website and app by signing in with your cable login. I watch HBO stuff all the time on my phone or computer. HBO Now is the separate, standalone subscription platform.

      And also, if you have other premium cable channels they also have similar. I have apps for Showtime, Cinemax and Starz that I sign into the same way and can watch all of their content.

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    165. Ten Bears,

      My headcanon as well!!!

      Of course, I’ll always be sorely disappointed about not seeing White Harbor or Greywater Watch. Or Meera at the Dragonpit.

      I need to stop now, before this turns into an uncontrolled rant.

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    166. Clob: I’m sure he’s the one you’re thinking of… He’s been mentioned here before as the extra that also does GoT tour guide stuff.I don’t remember seeing him wighted, but yeah, he is in KL too.One of the few recognizable extras in several scenes starting at the BotB.

      He’s the one! Very enthusiastic guy, kind of a “Where’s Waldo” to spot him in the episodes. I was wrong about it being him who was wighted, thankfully. 🤪

        Quote  Reply

    167. Mango,

      Didn’t Isaac and D&D not stated that that was because the 3ER wasn’t fully integrated into Bran yet? He didn’t make such a mistake in season 8 anymore, he even kept things for himself when the outcome would be better if he did that. (Like jaime pushing him out of a window)

      In season 8 everything was handled precisely to come to a more democratic 6 kingdoms.

      2 posts:
      https://nerdist.com/article/why-bran-stark-will-win-game-of-thrones/

      and
      https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-who-will-win-bran

      those have good points why Bran is very suited for to be king.

      meaning of the words wise:
      1. having the power of discerning and judging properly as to what is true or right; possessing discernment, judgment, or discretion.
      2. characterized by or showing such power; judicious or prudent:
      a wise decision.
      3. possessed of or characterized by scholarly knowledge or learning; learned; erudite:
      wise in the law.
      4. having knowledge or information as to facts, circumstances, etc.:
      We are wiser for their explanations.

      To go by all of these 4:
      1. This can be put to what Bran is now. He know what is right. Or at least he has the ability to know what is right and wrong.
      2. For me this is also Bran, he uses his power in the right way and to the right means. He even knows when he is needed and when not. His decision with for instance Jon was also very wise.
      3. This is 100% Bran, he has all the knowledge there is, if a decision needed to be made for the future, he just need to jump back in time and look short for those moments in time what worked and what not.
      4. look at point 3.

      So the official definition of what wise is, Bran is wise. And as you can see Emotion is not a factor here. Which make sense because the wisest of them all are the ones that are fully in control of their emotions, and Bran is in fact fully in control of his emotions. There will be no: I’m hurt by his comment or action, so it’s payback time. Because he lacks those emotions of revenge, petty etc.

      Young Dragon,

      I’m with you on this.

      Ten Bears,

      Why concern about a moment when his 3ER ability was still trying to integrate in him, Bran season 8 was fully in control of his 3ER abilities. So I agree season 7 Bran was not wise, Season 8 Bran is the wisest of them all. He has experience of over 1000 years. And in season 7 those 1000 years needed to be fixed in his mind, after that it was.

        Quote  Reply

    168. I always really enjoy seeing those behind the camera, in a multitude of roles, working their absolute hearts out. What an amazing bunch. The snow dude was great. Kit’s reaction made me sad, but I’m seriously impressed with his willpower of not reading the dang thing beforehand. Conleth looked SO over it after his last scene. 😆

      The first table read, they’re all so young! And Maisie already had some of those Arya facial expressions going on. 🙂

      Person recording Chris Newman and his crazy schedule spreadsheet: “Do you thrive on this?”
      Chris: “No.” LOL.

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    169. Clob,

      Okay thanks ill try from the website just need to get the login info my husband doesnt remember it. It’s annoying how many different Id’s passwords store savings cards etc we need to lug around in our heads and wallets these days lol.

        Quote  Reply

    170. I think one can find ways to justify Bran being king, but I don’t believe that D&D did those mental acrobatics themselves. I also didn’t see any proof that Bran was particularly wise. If the story had devoted any time to that thread of thinking, I would have cheered the idea on.

        Quote  Reply

    171. ThisGirlHasNoName:
      I think one can find ways to justify Bran being king, but I don’t believe that D&D did those mental acrobatics themselves. I also didn’t see any proof that Bran was particularly wise. If the story had devoted any time to that thread of thinking, I would have cheered the idea on.

      I kind of feel like Bran is akin to an encyclopedia…the knowledge is there, but often it has to be searched for by someone in order to be accessed.

        Quote  Reply

    172. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      totally agree – nothing leading up to this season left hints, tho rewatching ep 1-3 showed me some, it wasn’t near enough. that came from left field, and as Ive said elsethread, given his steps he put in place, including the fireboming of KL, will he be a good king? Or just more of the same….no way of knowing.

        Quote  Reply

    173. ash,

      The only foreshadowing I can think of that would’ve articulated Bran being a good king was back in season 2 when he was taking appointments in Winterfell. He got a lot of good experience from that and seemed to make just decisions. Although, he did leave Winterfell undermanned, which led to Theon taking it.

        Quote  Reply

    174. For those interested, here’s the ‘S8E06 Explained’ video from Alt Shift X. Now some 2 weeks after the final episode aired.

        Quote  Reply

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