“Game of Thrones” Season 8, Episode 5 Preview

Golden Company King's Landing Battle Season 8 805

The Battle of King’s Landing is upon us and if Emilia Clarke’s interview with Jimmy Kimmel is anything to go by, then you might want to find the biggest television screen you can to see how the climactic battle of Game of Thrones comes to a head.

The preview for Episode 8×05 opens up with a despairing Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) staring out of the stone columns of Dragonstone as a hesitant Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) approaches her. Cersei (Lena Headey) looks out at King’s Landing as the Northern forces assemble outside its gates. A hooded figure looks towards the Red Keep as the forces of the Golden Company march past him.

Everyone is looking pensive, another scorpion is loaded, and a faint dragon roar echoes above the Iron Fleet. Are you ready?

583 Comments

  1. How I want the hooded figure to be Jaqen H’ghar ( though I know it can’t be)

  2. Nope. Not ready. I think I’m going to need all the wine on Sunday. At least seeing as I watch it at 2am as it airs here, I have plenty of time to drink all the wine beforehand and then hopefully I won’t even be aware of the heartbreak that lies in store for us!

  3. I know many, many, many (too many?) people are saying that the writing this season sucks and that is the worst thing ever, I actually feel like even though is true the writing has lost some of his original quality (seasons 1-4), is still pretty decent, the thing is, during seasons 5 and 6 we had a massive climax that saved the season from being so heavilty critisized (Hardhome, BoTB and Winds of Winter) but in season 7 the climax, (the episode beyond the wall) didnt deliver, at all, so they desperately need episode 5 to be extraordinary, and I am sure it will! I still have faith in Miguel´s brilliant directing and D&D´s writing. Go guys! I know you can!

  4. I feel like I’m done making predictions. This could go a variety of ways and work for me. I’m still hoping for a reasonably happy ending for many characters… but I don’t really want to say because then it won’t happen. :p Just let it happen.

  5. Che,

    I’m joining you with the 2am wine. I think I’m more nervous about this episode than I was about episode 3. I have a feeling this one is going to hurt.

  6. Raenarys:
    That’s not the official title is it? A bit half assey if it is.

    I’m pretty sure the title won’t be known until they release the episode online.

  7. Titles aside, we need to hurry up with these last two episodes before people lose their mind concocting theories.

    I heard one yesterday of Daenerys literally becoming a dragon.

    Viserys : You don’t want to wake the dragon do you?
    Olenna : You’re a dragon, be a dragon
    Messandei : All men must die/ Dany: But we are not men.

    Just stop *insert whiny face emoji*

  8. Here are some predictions:
    Varys will die.
    Cersei will die.
    Qyburn will die.
    The Mountain will die.
    Euron will die.
    Jaime will die.
    Dany will not die. If she does, she will be reborn.
    Anyone who followed Watchers on the Wall knows that

    there will be massive fires. Also, a huge dragon rig was used during filming. Look back about a year ago…
  9. They obviously want everyone to think Dany will go mad and Jon has to kill her.

    A more “bittersweet” ending which makes more sense to me and with GRRMs writing is that Dany wins and effectively becomes queen, but it costs her everything – dragons, friends, armies, and Jon… who dies fighting a war he didn’t care about after he managed to defeat the AOTD. Dany is wrecked with grief and hands over the ruling to a “council” of Tyrion, Davos, Sansa, and others. Fits the ‘bittersweet’ as Dany rids the world of tyranny but loses everything; GRRM is an anti-war pacifist so having Jon die as a product of a conflict he didn’t want would fit.

  10. Miguel Sapochnik has said E3,E4 and E5 make a whole story… which is very intriguing!
    That is hard to figure given what we have seen in Ep3 and 4.
    Thus what the hell is episode 6 be like?!
    There are about 500 loose ends that need to be gathered and I am hard put to see this can be done in the next 2.6 hours.
    A battle bigger than Ep 3 ?
    I am figuring that the biggest surprises in season 8 are about to happen, at least I hope so.

  11. Ryan,

    I really hope Jon/Aegon doesn’t die. I think that would almost be too tragic. I envision him being the on the throne, even though he never wanted it. All he really wants is to be with his family, but due to his lineage, he will be almost forced to be king.

  12. Raenarys,

    Let’s see first if she dies.
    First three eps. where Jon’s war. He won. Now it’s Dany’s war. She will not lose. I’m curious at what cost though…

  13. The best thing about GOT is not knowing what’s going to happen. For 5 seasons, I felt bad for the book readers who knew (more or less) what was coming. This is a show that likes to pull the rug out from under you, and keep you wondering what’s going to happen next. It’s a rare thing.

  14. JSchmeh,

    Maybe Jon ends up alive and will retire north beyond the wall in the very end of it all. (Maybe after winning the throne and then abolishing it, re-establishing the seven independent kingdoms….) Thormund hinted during the goodbye that well MAYBE they see each other again. An element missing from Jon’s other goodbyes. And then he didn’t have to hug Ghost as he will see him again.

  15. Boojam,

    Don’t expect to get too many answers to loose ends….that’s just not how D/D write. The best explanation for things so far has come in the ‘behind the scenes’ or ‘inside the episode’ featurettes…. I suspect we’ll be disappointed in nonexplanations of things like the NK/Bran, White Walkers, Mel, Lord of Light, LOT7, Craster, Sam, Kirvana, Priestesses, Varys, Tyrion and the dragon, Valyrian steel, the Phi symbol, etc.

    Worst of all though, if they don’t have a major plot point about Bran influencing the past which was set up by the TOJ/Hodor beats, I’m going to be livid.

  16. Honestly the northern alliance has show themselves to be so incompetent tactically, I’m rooting for Cercei now.

  17. Can anyone else confirm if any of the cast or writers outside of Miguel Sapochnik and Emilia Clarke have said anything about this episode?

    To me, the silence from everyone means this episode is gonna be off the rails crazy. Like, we knew it probably would be, but still, it’s just interesting that no one else seems to have made a peep about it.

    Or, the pessimistic side of me is saying that they hyped up The Long Night so much, and were probably pretty taken aback by the polarized reception, so they are erring on the side of silence for this one.

  18. Ryan: Don’t expect to get too many answers to loose ends….that’s just not how D/D write. The best explanation for things so far has come in the ‘behind the scenes’ or ‘inside the episode’ featurettes…. I suspect we’ll be disappointed in nonexplanations of things like the NK/Bran, White Walkers, Mel, Lord of Light, LOT7, Craster, Sam, Kirvana, Priestesses, Varys, Tyrion and the dragon, Valyrian steel, the Phi symbol, etc.

    Yeah the Varys ‘back history’ mystery has been going since the beginning , hyped by Kinvara in S6, … so is Varys just gona be ‘run-over-by-a-truck’?

    By the by, the great mysterious Varys and Illyrio conversation , S1, is it ‘forget that!’ ?

  19. Miss Stark,

    I think I will be joining both of you! I’ll bring my own wine!

    I hope Jon lives! Fingers crossed *prays to old and new gods and sends ‘Jon survives’ vibes to D&D*

  20. Yeah… All the wine. I started last week and have been restocking for this week.

    I’m afraid of too many deaths, too much left unsaid and unexplained. I’m still a huge fan, still looking forward to every second of the remaining episodes, still….

    I’m NOT okay, I’m NOT ready.

  21. Greywind,

    I know nothing about what’s in the leaks but I do recall some producer commenting that they filmed multiple fake endings to the series. At the time people thought this was stupid and no one would waste so much money on filming something that wouldn’t make it to screen.

    But maybe they did it so they could leak a fake ending purposefully? I wouldn’t put it past the show runners given they forced KH to lie about being dead.

  22. QueenofThrones,

    You know in recent months D&D commented , on the 60 min feature?, that they had consulted with the Star Wars people on how to keep things secret, seemly fed up with leaks, however they did not indicate what they learned.
    Yeah fake spoilers would sure be poetic justice for free folk.

  23. my prediction:
    – Dany will not go full mad queen and burn the city. She will go the civil route, saving KL from Cersei.
    – But Cersei’s manipulating of the common folk worked, and together with Varys meddling, the common folk will turn on Dany even if she saved the day, she will be received as the villain by them, people act scared of her, maybe screaming for Cercei or Jon to save them from the mad king’s daughter.
    – Dany falls in depression because no matter what she does, who she helped, what she sacrificed, she can’t win over these people, her father is a burden on her, she longs back to Essos.
    – Dany is the hero of saving KL but will go down in history as the evil invader. Like nobody mentioned Tyrion was the one that saved everyone in blackwater, and Joffrey got the acknowledgement.

    That will be tragic of Dany. And maybe I predict Varys will manipulate Arya to kill Dany to save Jon. (hell it’s not even manipulating because Varys is certain he is right, so he won’t act like he is lying)

  24. I would ask that people don’t even reference any leaks or spoilers here please (the admins have said time and time again not to bring it here). Anything you say about them gives things away, even the statement above about them gives things away. Please respect those who don’t want be spoiled and take the conversation elsewhere, possibly to where you saw leaks/spoilers in the first place? Please don’t bring even a reference to them here. No one appreciates even a mention of them.

  25. kevin1989,

    That is so bleak 😢 I hope that doesn’t happen!

    I think she will go a little fire and Blood, burn some stuff with minimal civilian casualties and then pull herself back from the brink – possibly losing her life in the process (I hope not).

    I foresee Jon making a mistake and getting himself held hostage by Cersei. My absolute worst case scenario is her killing him.

  26. I think at the last moment ,Dario Naharis will join Danerys` s Army and then they defeat golden company

  27. My whole office decided to stop theorizing and enjoy the ride after Ep 3 since it seemed all of the diverse threads spun over the last 8 years are not going to be woven together into one beautifully epic, finished tapestry. Maybe some, but not all.

    I loved the show the first four seasons before I succumbed to the obsessive internet wormhole, and simply appreciating the twists without analyzing the loose ends they created has allowed me, I think, a sense of peace with whatever happens Ep 4-6.

    Ha – it feels weird being so Zen. As Arya would say, that’s not me!

  28. Ryan,

    Much of that lore has now been reserved for the other GoT offshoots in the works. No one will watch The Long Night if we already know the punchlines.

    The same goes for GRRM’s books, if he actually ever finishes them. There will be plenty of loose ends tied up, in fact that will be their major selling point. No reason for him to write the books if this particular series spells out everything.

  29. No one is releasing any spoilers because no one knows any spoilers. Everything above is a theory of one kind or another. No one has provided any accurate leaks of this season as in seasons past.

  30. Ryan: No one has provided any accurate leaks of this season

    What she’s saying then is that there is no reason to even bring up the word or even say anything regarding possible ones, specifics or not.

  31. Do not be posting leaks in this post. We have a Quaratine forum for that. At the very least, you could cover stuff in spoiler coding, people. But I would prefer you just contain your discussion to the episode preview/speculation. Not leak shit, remotely. Don’t even reference it.

  32. Che,

    I mean, I haven’t seen the alleged leaks. And I certainly wouldn’t go anywhere on the internet that has them as I too do not want to be spoiled in any way either! But obviously we all know the alleged leaks exist.

    I remembered that interview and though it could give us hope that any alleged leaks could be wrong anyway. So really, yet another reason not to mention what’s in them.

  33. Carl:
    The hooded man walking into the city behind Golden Company could be Jamie

    It’s possible. We did see Jaime go through Winter town and arrive at Winterfell wearing a hood. The figure looks large enough to also possibly be Sandor. He’d have a very good reason to cover his face and much more likely to be killed on site if recognized. Those two are the most logical options anyway. I’m leaning more on the Sandor option right now.

  34. This site is the ONLY safe (mostly) space for me regarding predictions and those other things that shall not be named.

    Starting yesterday and until Sunday after the episode, I am pretty much staying away from the interwebs for the sake of my own sanity.

    Ya know, ForTheThrones

  35. Guess I can hope it’s Dario coming to save Danerys and prove his love, since I don’t think she’ll stay with Jon now they are related. Suppose, it’s not likely and I’ve been wrong too many times on what I conjectured from all the proposed theories.

    But please let Jon live and go north, back to Winterfell and his buddies. He never learned how to ride the dragon properly. Sansa can go back to KL with Tyrion then.

    What I’ve written is not bittersweet. So not going to happen! Jon doesn’t likely get to go north again and he knows it as he gave Ghost up for adoption, and said his goodbyes.

    How is there going to be more Stark babies or Targ babies? Just saying! Or Lannisters! In the end, only Baratheon survives? This is all too cruel and I cannot see the ending whatsoever that give me peace.

  36. Clob,

    I don’t know who theyre referring to, but it certainly wasn’t me. I didn’t say anything or reference any leaks at all. Because there aren’t any. And if there are, I don’t know them. My posts are personal theories, that’s all.

  37. Clob: It’s possible.We did see Jaime go through Winter town and arrive at Winterfell wearing a hood.The figure looks large enough to also possibly be Sandor.He’d have a very good reason to cover his face and much more likely to be killed on site if recognized.Those two are the most logical options anyway.I’m leaning more on the Sandor option right now.

    My guess as to who is under that hood is also Jamie. He can’t just stroll through the gates any more than the Hound or Dany could. Remember he’s got a price on his head for betraying his sister. I’m pretty sure she’d have him killed on sight. As to some of the theories going around, I have no idea. If Dany goes all mad queen, I won’t be happy but she certainly has a right to feel rage, hurt, disappointment. I wonder if she isn’t contemplating what she has lost in her pursuit of that bloody throne.

    As to the ending of GOT. Pretty sure it won’t make anyone happy and the only plus side I will like about it being over is that people will stop saying how bad it’s been, but seem to continue watching it. Personally, if I find a show, any show, that bad I stop watching it.

    BTW, for all you “jetpack” theorizers, I have watched two shows on Hulu just this week that did EXACTLY the same thing. The story moved forward to another time and didn’t show it happening. If we can’t be imaginative enough to realize that while watching something that is far from reality, it doesn’t say much about us, does it?

    There, my pet peeves. I truly appreciate everyone who has worked so hard for all of us here at Watchers on the Wall. I am going to miss this place!

  38. I’m thinking that all the mysteries-behind-action are going to remain unresolved. I’ve been reading these books since they were first published and I really want to know more about the screwed up seasons, the magic in the Wall, what makes the Winterfell crypts special, Azor Ahai, and a host of other things. It just looks like it’s going to end with another tactically ridiculous battle and some dead main characters. I just hope there’s not going to be some kind of deus ex machina ending for the sake of spectacle.

  39. Boojam,

    Thanks. From watching him in behind the scenes/interviews to me he does not seem the type to lie directly.

  40. Ryan,

    I wasn’t trying to say that you did, just commenting on people bringing them up at all. People are so emotionally invested in the show that even without specifics it can be disturbing, disappointing or cause worry even if none of it is confirmed (true/false). A random person simply writing something like “I hope leaks aren’t accurate because that would suck,” is enough.

  41. Ryan:
    Boojam,

    … Worst of all though, if they don’t have a major plot point about Bran influencing the past which was set up by the TOJ/Hodor beats, I’m going to be livid.

    I always assumed that the whole point of that was payed off with Bran creating Hodor. In that the Tower of Joy scene was the setup and Hodor was the payoff.

  42. Che:
    I would ask that people don’t even reference any leaks or spoilers here please (the admins have said time and time again not to bring it here). Anything you say about them gives things away, even the statement above about them gives things away. Please respect those who don’t want be spoiled and take the conversation elsewhere, possibly to where you saw leaks/spoilers in the first place? Please don’t bring even a reference to them here. No one appreciates even a mention of them.

    I so agree! I like the discussions here and so I’m carefully reading the comments but I’m getting wary about “predictions” that could actually be from leaks. I remember S6 too well – when a number of people here “predicted” exactly what would happen in the last episode (Cersei burning the sept, Tommen killing himself, Arya killing Frey, Jon becoming KITN). At that time I was like, whoa those are WILD predictions. When those all happened in the episode, I realized they were spoilers disguised as predictions.

    Okay, maybe I just need to summon my self-control now and stop reading the comments LOL! Anyway, here’s hoping the last 2 episodes won’t be too much of a heartbreaker for us GOT fans.

  43. JSchmeh:
    Ryan,

    I really hope Jon/Aegon doesn’t die. I think that would almost be too tragic. I envision him being the on the throne, even though he never wanted it. All he really wants is to be with his family, but due to his lineage, he will be almost forced to be king.

    I like the character a lot, but in some ways I think he should die. He is, for all intents and purposes, a re-animated corpse. Sure, he is one with his intellect, self-will and personality seemingly intact, but it just seems kind of strange to have a dead (or undead) guy walking around after the time period of the show ends.

  44. Ryan:
    Boojam,

    Worst of all though, if they don’t have a major plot point about Bran influencing the past which was set up by the TOJ/Hodor beats, I’m going to be livid.

    I was also expecting something “more” coming into the season, seemed like there had to be a timeline twist…but I saw an interview with Isaac where he explicitly said that wouldn’t happen…that he learned his lesson. Basically said the Hodor episode hammered home the 3ER’s warnings.
    Seems they are trying to walk some fine line where he has seen what happens and uses the knowledge to keep things on track vs. changing it. That’s not hugely satisfying but my guess is one of:
    – Isaac was misdirecting
    – Isaac was telling the truth but there is still something more to the Bran story in E5/6*; or a timeline twist that doesn’t involve him actively changing the past
    – GRRM was writing cool mystery stuff but hadn’t really worked out Bran’s role in the end game, leaving D&D in a pickle
    – GRRM has a plan but it didn’t work for tv format or was too convoluted to integrate in a satisfactory way (especially with story already trimmed)
    – they have to avoid spoiling the prequels (which is really darn frustrating if that has impacted the wrap-up of this story)

    Also..if Bran changed the past, a lot of people will be very unhappy. Changing the past changes up or even erases the story we already watched. From fan investment perspective, it would be better to reveal that previous 3ER(s) had made the mistake of changing things? leading to the story we got.

    *I like the theory that Bran’s end game is as the leader of a Great Council of lords/kingdoms. What better way to avoid repeating mistakes history than to have someone who REALLY remembers lol
    But it’s not a cool timeline twist

  45. AlwaysWinter:
    JSchmeh,

    Maybe Jon ends up alive and will retire north beyond the wall in the very end of it all. (Maybe after winning the throne and then abolishing it, re-establishing the seven independent kingdoms….) Thormund hinted during the goodbye that well MAYBE they see each other again. An element missing from Jon’s other goodbyes. And then he didn’t have to hug Ghost as he will see him again.

    The more I think about this possibility, I like it. It would be interesting that the 1st Targaryen created the 7K and Iron Throne and the last one ended them.

  46. Carl,

    That’s what I was thinking. Jaime was hooded when he arrived at Winterfell, so I thought this might be him. I have to wonder WTF he’s going to do, knowing Cersei hired Bronn to kill him and Tyrion. His support of Cersei makes no sense.

    I would have thought he would have talked to his brother about how they might end Cersei’s reign without actually killing her. I don’t think either of them really wants to see her die, but I think both of them want to stop her.

    I mean. If you’re worried about a “Mad Queen,” look no further. Everyone worries about Dany who has dragons she has NOT used in King’s Landing, but rarely is Cersei mentioned. She has no dragon, but she has wild fire and has actually used it to murder thousands when she destroyed the Sept.

  47. Clob,

    for those justifiably upset about this topic, how about we stop bringing it up and actually REPEATING the the comments that are upsetting, makes no sense to do that

  48. Clob: It’s possible.We did see Jaime go through Winter town and arrive at Winterfell wearing a hood.The figure looks large enough to also possibly be Sandor.He’d have a very good reason to cover his face and much more likely to be killed on site if recognized.Those two are the most logical options anyway.I’m leaning more on the Sandor option right now.

    That’s where I’m leaning too and that Arya is with him disguised as a GC soldier. My guess is that they’re pretending that the Hound is a prisoner. Whoever it is is not being very sneaky if we can all see him. The GC aren’t blind. Why would they let him walk by unchallenged. Hood or no hood, you can’t just walk in like that.

  49. ShameShameShame:
    Clob,

    then why do you keep bringing it up and REPEATING IT, sheesh.

    Are you trying to be an ass? That’s not what I did at all. It was an initial comment about talking about specific leaks (whether those are explained in detail or not) and a general statement about not referring to specific leaks. I didn’t make any comments on leaks regarding the episode myself as I don’t fucking know any. The g.d. word “leak” isn’t the topic.

    * edited slightly per edited quote 😉

  50. If IF there’s a chance Dany is going the Mad Queen route and because she’s lost so many she loves, I wonder if she’ll see any visions? Mostly I just want to know if we’ll see Khal Drogo again, maybe as motivation for her to do SOMETHING. Either sacrifice herself or pull back from the brink or just something.

    Lol I have no idea what’s happening these next 2 episodes

  51. The sad thing about this episode is, no matter what happens, regardless of the quality ,some people have already decided they are going to hate it.

    P.S: and spread the hate

  52. Nadia: Either sacrifice herself or pull back from the brink or just something.

    Lol I have no idea what’s happening these next 2 episodes

    They’ve done quite a bit in the last handful of episodes to make us think that she’s going to finally break and go ballistic on the Red Keep (at least). They’ve been able to make it go from she won’t to possible to expected – to wanted by many people. It would be more surprising now if she doesn’t do something like that.

    Maybe that was an intentional directional focus so we don’t see the depressed “Sad Queen” that just gives up and it takes others to MAKE her engage and help/save them…? Yeah, no, probably not eh…

  53. AlvWaynwood,

    The writing has not gone down in quality. Yes, there are flaws to criticize but they have always been there. The difference is that the overall plot of the story isn’t as good as the earlier seasons. This is the same issue that happened to GRRM after ASOS. The story peaks in ASOS and after that it loses many aspects that made the story so great (Stark-Lannister war, Sansa as a hostage, Tyrion in Kings Landing, Arya’s adventures, Joffrey, Tywin). The story reboots and just isn’t as good.

    The way people talk about the show now you would think GRRM kept releasing masterpieces after ASOS and had finished the story in a great way. A plot line like the White Walkers is almost impossible to do in a way that would satisfy people. If the White Walkers become the main narrative of the story people would not like it because it is now a story of humans vs evil beings and lacks the great human drama that the story originally had. Any way which the WW’s are defeated, whether it be an Arya stab or Jon Snow wielding a magical sword that somehow defeats them, will get an underwhelming reaction. The WW aspect only really works as a mysterious background plot.

    Luckily GRRM won’t have to worry about this. He will never finish the story but will be given the benefit of the doubt that he would have done so in a great way. He will never have to do the hardest part, give satisfying answers to mystical plot aspects like WW’s and the 3 Eyed Raven. D&D don’t have that luxury. They have to end this story now and of course be hated for not doing so in the great way people think GRRM will.

  54. These comment sections are turning into my local Facebook Community page…with the same haters hammering the same issue in their heads over and over again. Please just ignore them. It’s like arguing with someone on social media about politics…nothing good comes from it. Leave the bridge trolls alone.

    The next two episodes will culminate a journey of 10 years on TV, and almost 25 for me with reading the books. GRRM gave the ending so we will at least get that accurately done. And with all the signs pointing one way…you know it’s going the other. At least one “bad guy” will survive and many fan faves will fall. And some will (GOD FORBID) have some plot armor! Oh no!! Yeah, I’m fine with that so that we can get to the good stuff. I don’t need two more seasons explaining the details of 17 prophecies and why the NK was created and So on.

    I’m clinging to Littlefinger still being around with that faceless man trade in WF. Come on, let me be right on one wild ass theory!

    For those who are loving this series and not hating on everything because a certain plot point was shit or a little bad writing…I hold my Tormund Drinking Horn high for you and will drink in your honor!!

  55. My one hope is that if Dany and/or Jon die, it is not in some explosion or during battle, and it is not at the hands of Cersei. She has been too overpowered and too successful for too damn long.

    I go back and forth on whether Dany/Jon die in this episode. Part of me believes this is the climactic episode and the big twist is one or both dying. It’s just hard for me to imagine one or both characters won’t be in the finale.

    I don’t want the Dany/Jon issue to be resolved because one of them dies in battle. But I can’t ignore all of the foreshadowing of Dany’s tragic downfall. As much as I’ve believed Jon would always die, he really hasn’t received the doomed storyline in either season 7 or 8. That has been Dany. And going by the show’s HOTU vision, it is Snow on the throne and Dany never quite reaches it.

    My initial reaction when I first read the books was that ‘A Song Of Ice And Fire’ referred to Jon. And I know I’m probably jinxing it, but I think my initial reaction was correct. He will be forced to take the throne. It just sucks that the show did such a poor job with the character. A lot of people are going to be upset if he somehow winds up being king. The way they’ve portrayed him is the only reason I believe he could still die, despite not receiving a doomed edit.

  56. JamesL,

    The writing has taken a downturn since they shortened the seasons. IMO. It’s mostly plot now. Characters are given far less time to interact with each other. They are forced to do stupid things to service the plot. Because it’s no longer about the characters as much as it is about the plot and just getting to the end. They are now at the end, and it’s possible that the disservice they did to the characters will in turn disservice the ending of the story.

    I’m not trying to bash D&D completely either. GRRM screwed them over. He failed to continue to provide them with the blueprints.

  57. Kinvara said to Varys “‘we serve the same Queen if you’re her true friend then you have nothing to fear from me’” emphasis on the ME – if Varys is going down then Kinvara is burning him. And what’s the bet hers was the voice that Varys heard in the flames ? (if Vary’s is going down we need resolution on that – this would be clean)

    Now you want maximum payoff from Kinvara burning Varys – then 1) There’s a live theory out there that Varys is a Targaryen 2) Melisandre waned to sacrifice Gendry (Edric Storm) on Dragonstone to birth stone dragons – part of the Azor Ahai myths – put all that together – and kaboom – Stone Dragons – maybe even an eruption of the Volcano that is Dragonstone ??

    Meanwhile this is the Song of Ice and Fire – the threat of the world ending in Ice has been defeated, now it’s time to defeat the threat of the world ending in Fire? Fire = Dany, the Dragons, the Red Priestesses and the Lord of Light … fire is passion, thus Jon and Dany, and why the Red Priestesses disguise themselves as beautiful women

  58. It may sound sick to say, but I’m really interested in seeing Arya fight the living. She’s killed people before, sure, but not in a grand battle setting. She killed a lot of wights, but that’s not the same as taking someone’s life. I’m ready to see her rack up so many more kills….Real kills.

  59. So I’ve been busy, enjoying the show with friends and family, and ardently avoiding potential spoilers. I’ve dropped in just a bit and there are obviously massively mixed opinions on the season.
    I’m in the camp still enjoying the show, while recognizing there seem to be some failures of my own expectations, some weird character moments, some expedient story telling.
    Why didn’t Jon give Ghost a proper farewell? Maybe that means he’s doomed. Why was Sansa so rude to Sandor? It’s not like learning from Cersei and LF is… cool.
    Disappointed in Jaime. My friend insists he knows what he must do, which is ride south and kill Cersei. I disagree. I think, if he kills Cersei, it will be done to save the city, or impulsively after finding out she told Euron it was his “prince” and not Jaime’s, or a culmination of several such factors.

    My crackiest crackpot predictions are as follows (and I’m sure most of these have been floated already, so I don’t mean “mine” in the truly possessive sense):

    Arya kills Jaime at the inn at the crossroads and takes his face to infiltrate the red keep. Mild crack.

    Sandor has to use fire to kill the undead mountain. Obviously, not very good crack.

    Bran plays a role in the battle somehow. Has he decided that warging constitutes a violation of cosmic principals, or will he use these powers for good- or maybe evil? It’s not too late for Branakin! Potency of this crack is volatile and uncertain. Be careful with this one.

    Somebody (Dany, Jon, Bran?) wakes the stone dragons at dragon stone. Wait. Did they even win the stronghold? The preview shows them there. I hadn’t even considered that- I guess the iron born let them have it? But I hope this is what Euron is looking up at, surprised. Stone dragons sent to destroy him; their scales impervious to the bite of the scorpions.

    This is Dave chapelle levels of crack- and I’m itching for more.

  60. I’m honestly not sure what is going to happen. Not a clue, but I’ve been thinking about the villains.

    Qyburn-I have to wonder if sending Bronn to kill the brothers was his secret idea. Cersei has had multiple opportunities to kill both of them in recent seasons, but she could never go through with it. (yes she tried to work a few situations where Tyrion was killed, ie Blackwater, but I don’t know)
    Also PS no one promised Bronn Riverrun. Qyburn gave him a cart full of chests of gold and said he’d be rewarded even more in the future. So Bronn was full of it.

    Euron-I hope his ships are blown to hell but he survives long enough for Jon to get to fight him. Jon hasn’t gotten to take down a bad guy this season. And since show Euron has no magic and is kind of a dill hole, Jon could definitely take him.

    Mad Queen Cersei-she has 3 men concerned for her or doing her bidding because of her pregnancy. I’m not sure she’s pregnant at all. And I hope not because I really want her to die this Mother’s Day episode. According to Tyrion, her only redeeming quality was her love for her children. I could argue with that all day, since her love was very selfish and detrimental, but she did talk about it a lot so it feels fitting.
    I also don’t want her to get what she wants ie dying with Jaime
    We belong together, we were born together, we’ll die together etc.

    No.
    I really want Jaime to be honest with her about who she is. As the only one who ever genuinely loved her, that could be a powerful scene. And she deserves it. Frankly I’d love it if the someone “younger and beautiful” from Maggy’s prophecy is Brienne. And seeing what true beauty is, Jaime finally sees the truth of Cersei. That would drive her bonkers.
    I know-probably fan fiction territory-but it would really work for his arc.

    Speaking of Lannisters, I keep remembering Tyrion’s speech at his trial about how he wishes he had enough poison to kill everyone in King’s Landing, and trying to reconcile that with his continuous pleading for Dany not to use her dragon’s on the Red Keep. If she’d just attacked the main building in the beginning before the scorpions and the human shields, death toll would have been comparatively low and she would still have all her armies, and most of her dragons, allies and friends would still be alive.
    Just saying.

    I have always loved Tyrion and rooted for him, but his advice has been horrible since he met Dany, as well as his uncharacteristic fear about her temper, even though he grew up with Cersei and knows the things she’s done (which were a lot worse, let’s be honest)
    I hope he’s still just having a rough time since Shae and his dad died.

    That’s all it is, right, Bran? Yoohoo. Bran?

    Also I totally want all those people joking about dragon armor to be right. Gendry does owe Dany a favor, and she’s lost two dragons so it wouldn’t be a bad decision to invest in a little protection. 🙂

    Oh and I’m a little worried about Grey Worm. He is not going to be okay after Missandei.

  61. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    No, that’s incorrect. Episodes 1, 2, and 4 were filled to the brim with character moments. If D&D wanted to get it over with, why did the two shortened seasons take longer to film than the previous 6? You would think the opposite would have happened if what you said was true.

  62. Che,

    No amount of dragon fire should be use at all in the Red Keep or nearby. Doesn’t Tyrion remember the stashes of wild fire stored underneath? What happens when Drogon’s fire reaches that stash? BOOM! And everyone in the vicinity dies, even Dany’s remaining army. Maybe Dany herself doesn’t survive wild fire, which will kind of be poetic in a way.

  63. I think anything that happens has to be based on what the show has given us. They haven’t bothered with most prophecies. So just having a dragon miraculously appear at the last minute would be kind of ridiculous. The only thing I could maybe see is Bran somehow warging a dead Rhaegal, but even that wouldn’t make sense, as it has not been established that he can control the dead.

  64. Danny,

    THIS, I’ve been waiting for someone to bring up the wildfire point. Tyrion knows as much about the wildfire under King’s Landing as anyone else on the show, I am surprised it has not been mentioned yet. Seems odd they would not fire this Checkov’s gun again…

  65. Back on what Euron sees in the preview… I’m wondering if Bran’s powers are strong enough to enable him to warg a dead dragon. It doesn’t seem possible and a fairly dumb idea but it still just crossed my mind. 😛 Still, if he could make Rhaegal’s body do ‘stuff’ without it mattering what happens to it that would be pretty effective.

  66. Scott,

    I dig the way you do business, Scott. Stone dragons and all!
    I like the Varys/Kinvara predictions. It will be comically disappointing if we don’t get payoff, in some way, on this front.

  67. Tyrion Pimpslap: The only thing I could maybe see is Bran somehow warging a dead Rhaegal, but even that wouldn’t make sense, as it has not been established that he can control the dead.

    Wow, you just posted that as I was writing about that very thing! Ha!!

    Clob

  68. Bobdole,

    Really? Like who? I’ve seen posters say they’re excited about the episode, but that doesn’t mean it will reach their expectations.

  69. kevin1989,

    You nailed it on the head. Exactly what I see coming. I would add one thing: Dany finds out she’s pregnant (and maybe Jon finds out too, and marries her when he does find out, to avoid fathering a bastard if he falls in battle), making this even more tragic.

    No good deed goes unpunished where Dany is concerned. Stocking up on alcohol.

  70. Also, they are really milking Cersei for all she’s worth. Lena must have something on D+D.
    Cersei, as a villain, should have been eliminated 2 seasons ago. This plot point is a dead end. Ok, she has King’s Landing, so what? Dany has dragons.
    Have they not read up on how Harrenhal was taken down? You can put all the ballistas/ scorpion weapons you want, Dany can send her dragons at the dead of night, flying straight down and blow up the Red Keep.
    It’s so contrived how they are keeping Cersei living for so long. She is no threat and that’s the reason anything after the Short Night doesnt feel gripping.

  71. Young Dragon,

    Okay, but imagine if each season were 10 episodes. You don’t think we would have received more character interactions? Arya/Dany? More Arya/Jon? A reaction from Arya and Sansa to Jon’s identity? A more fleshed out portrayal of Dany’s downfall? Do you think we would have had hardly any reaction and contemplation to having just defeated the WW? Instead we get them foolishly rushing exhausted armies and injured dragons South to fight another war.

    It’s obvious the extra time spent filming season 8 was because of two giant battles and the amount of CGI required for this season. We have had more dragon scenes than most of the previous seasons combined.

  72. One of the themes in the story has been: Game of Thrones – you win or you die. The Lannisters have been so arrogantly proud that they completely wiped out House Reyne, that they wrote a song about it – Rains of Castamere – which has repeatedly been alluded to during the series. The Lannisters were similarly determined to wipe out House Stark, though they’ve failed so far.

    Thematically, I think House Lannister has to be completely wiped from Westeros by series end, which would necessarily include the deaths of both Jamie and Tyrion.

  73. Young Dragon,

    I think Episode 2 stands out from the rest, exactly because it felt like the old GOT. Meaning it was an episode mostly devoted to exploring the inner lives of the characters, to remind us who they were and how they had evolved. The other three episodes fell more into advancing plot, they moved a bit too fast. The show would have benefited from providing certain storylines more room to breathe. Really, they should have really allowed themselves at least one more episode. Truly show the aftermath of what an apocalyptic battle would do to people.

    As to the length of production for this season, they needed more time because they were filming battles. Battles and/or any sequence involving complex choreography will require tons more time to put together. They took two years because blocking, rehearsing and shooting simply took more time. Actors themselves have said how the directors required infinite number of takes from every angle for editing purposes. And that would take tons of time. So length of production doesn’t negate Tyrion Pimpslap’s point. I think he/she is quite right about the pacing problems this season and really they do feel jarring if you compared it to the slow snail pace of the earlier seasons.

  74. Clob,

    What is dead may never die. Euron seeing a warged or “brought back to life” dragon could really shake him. Hence the shot in the preview. Oh, I like this idea! Thanks you two and anyone else who may have posted it. It would be a great way for Bran to contribute to the action. We shall see!

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

  75. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Too many episodes where nothing happens becomes boring. Episode 2 this season was excellent, but too much of it and it would have become boring.
    I do think that episode 1 could have been better.

  76. It does amuse me slightly when people say that the writing is worse is worse without GRRM books. I mean, no shit, of course it is going to be harder to write than before without a writer who is clearly having difficulty writing the books himself. It would be a miracle if it was still as good. If GRRM can’t easily finish the series how on earth is it going to be easy for D&D?

    Anyway I really do expect a bit of a bloodbath this week, with next week more devoted to filling in some (not all) loose plot threads, and presumably the fate of the Iron Throne, and who sits on it (if anyway).

    In terms of deaths I think it is reasonable to assume the following might die:
    -Cersei
    -Jaime
    -Euron
    -The Mountain
    -Qyburn
    -Varys
    -Grey Worm
    I think there’s a chance that Dany might go too, but she is definitely less likely than the others. The Hound is another potential casualty, although I hope not.

  77. Chilli,

    So seasons 1-6 were boring? I’m not saying each episode should have been like episode 2, which I loved. I’m just saying the previous 2 seasons would have benefited greatly by having 3 and 4 more episodes respectively. It is my assertion that the shortened seasons had as much to do with the perceived drop in writing quality as not having any more books to adapt did. They didn’t have the books for season 6, and I love that season. It featured arguably the two best episodes in the series and 3 of the top 10.

  78. Sister Kisser: My crackiest crackpot predictions are as follows (and I’m sure most of these have been floated already, so I don’t mean “mine” in the truly possessive sense):

    Arya kills Jaime at the inn at the crossroads and takes his face…

    Sandor has to use fire to kill the undead mountain….

    Bran plays a role in the battle somehow….

    Somebody (Dany, Jon, Bran?) wakes the stone dragons at dragon stone….

    I’ll have some Chappelle crack, if you’re sharing.
    – Yeah, Arya/Jaime is the valonqar. So many faces to choose from! As she lounges on what’s left of the IT (a la Jaime/Mad King), she may even give the kingdom to a Baratheon or another, shorter Lannister. Then she’ll head west…
    – Although never was a “CleganeBowl” fan, I do hope he burns the mountain and maybe even Qyburn, who brought him back.
    – Bran needs to play a role! But I believe his role is darker than we suspect. The 3ER is still a product of the vengeful CotF, you know…
    – Sorry Jon, Dany, Drogon…bye, bye…the song of ice and fire will be sung at your funeral, then written down by Sam.

    I’m sure I’m wrong…but will enjoy the watch/hatewatch nonetheless.

  79. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    JamesL,

    Characters are given far less time to interact with each other. They are forced to do stupid things to service the plot. Because it’s no longer about the characters as much as it is about the plot and just getting to the end.

    I just had this conversation with my husband and we agree. Endings can always seem a little rushed, but we know from interviews that despite HBO and George’s desires, they made the decision to wrap it up faster. Which is fine, but it does now feel a little more about the destination than the journey, which means we lose the interactions that would insure the destination made more sense.

    For example, no one asks Bran about Cersei’s weaponry capabilities, and none of the soldiers or KL people present at battle planning consider that there could be ships surrounding Dragonstone-which is actually pretty close to KL-and someone should scout ahead or Dany should fly higher and check it out etc.
    Tyrion and Varys both know Cersei can play dirty, and they all know that Dany’s allies and armies have been caught unaware by Euron twice before.

    I hate saying Sansa was right lol-but they really should have rested a bit and gotten some intel.

    For the record, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is one of my top favorite episodes and that song still makes me cry, so I’m not hating on the showrunners at all-apart from their dislike of direwolves. But I can’t deny the obvious either.

    Or the fact that everyone is acting all weird about Dany’s actions and Tyrion and Varys haven’t mentioned Cersei blowing up the entire Sept with wildfire while they’re talking about temperaments. Or that wildfire is still all over the place and she could use it again at any moment.
    I mean, come on. Clearly she’s the real threat to the realm right? wtf.

    Also Bran, why would you throw that info at Jon and then just leave him hanging? It can’t be just to put him in more danger and break him up with his girlfriend or I’ll riot. Quietly. Tears will be involved.

    Okay I’m done lol

  80. Tyrion Pimpslap: Okay, but imagine if each season were 10 episodes. You don’t think we would have received more character interactions?

    Actually it’s interesting, because while many of us have felt that Season 7 and especially Season 8 have been rushed at times, some non-super fans have had the opposite reaction.

    One of my friends opined at the end of Season 7 “so, Cersei is still in charge, and the AOTD only just got to the wall, so really nothing happened this entire season”. My mind boggled a bit but thinking about it from their perspective, it makes sense. In terms of the plot, it is happening, but TBH there was a lot of just kind of running around in circles. It’s still Dany vs. Cersei right now in the 2nd to last episode, just like it was setup to be since ep 10 of s 6. If we didn’t have the great Character drama to fill in the gaps, or if we didn’t care about that, then in a lot of ways the plot arc was, strangely, quite slow.

  81. Knight of the Walkers,

    I don’t think we are escaping this episode without an original main POV character dying. I hate to say it, but I think one of Dany,Jon,Tyrion, or Arya will die in this episode.

  82. Clob,

    I have been thinking, that the show is playing with perspectives. Last episode we saw Dany, how Varys sees her. We have also been put into Tyrion’s shoes: the showrunners made us to see Dany intimindating and sceary, as someone who is completely unwilling to share power and manipulatese Jon bending him to her will. So, IMO the last episode was more about Tyrion’s and Varys’es loyalties than about Dany actually going the mad queen. And there were plenty of subtile hints that she’s nowhere near going mad and nowhere near unwilling to share power and there are missing pieces of the puzzle, too.

    Anyway, I would describe the last episode as the darkest night of the soul following the most dissatisfactory victory (even Arya was dissatisfied). So, by every rule the next episode should bring the dawn, otherwise the whole GOT will turn into a total downer in terms of “people are bitches and the Sun is a fucking lamp” and people will hardly be inclined to watch it again.

  83. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Did I mention somewhere nothing happens in season 1-6? A lot happened in season 1-4. I do agree there is a quality drop after that. Season 5 and 6 both had 10 episodes, but apart from a few excellent episodes (Hardhome, Winds of Winter, …), the rest was less good but still good enough for me to keep on watching.

  84. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Well, of course we would have gotten more character interactions if there were ten episodes, but that would be the same if we had 10 seasons, or 20, or 30, etc. Character moments alone are meaningless if the writers don’t also service the story. That’s where Martin went wrong with his books. Feast and Dance were full of character development and world building but his story barely moved an inch in two full books. Now look at everything he has to pack into Winds and Dream in order to finish his story. People are upset that the White Walker threat ended sooner than expected and say Martin will do better when the White Walker threat hasn’t even kicked off yet in the books.

    Look at the character arcs that came to an end, such as Theon, Jorah, Melisandre, Beric, Edd, Missandei, and Lyanna Mormont. They each could have received one or two more character moments, but that wouldn’t make their character arc end any more perfectly.

  85. Sister Kisser: Bran plays a role in the battle somehow. Has he decided that warging constitutes a violation of cosmic principals, or will he use these powers for good- or maybe evil? It’s not too late for Branakin! Potency of this crack is volatile and uncertain. Be careful with this one.

    Maybe Bran can warg into the Mountain and bitchslap Cersei so she falls off the wall and dies.

  86. Sister Kisser,

    The reason Jon didn’t hug or pet ghost is because it would have been nearly impossible to do. Ghost is portrayed by and actual wolf and cg enhanced for size. They film him in isolation at a studio in Canada. There is no way an actor can get close to him, it would be way too dangerous. As far as doing it with CGI, that would be way to costly and time consuming. It is hard enough to do a scene like when he petted Drogon and Drogon has rough solid skin. The fur on the wolf would be way to hard to simulate correctly.

  87. My predictions for the last 2 episodes….

    Jon will return to the North and meet back up with ghost, tormund etc at the end. The north will be his ‘grey havens’, and will allow Dany to be queen (Maester Aemon turned down the crown and joined the KW, allegorical to what Jon will do.

    The stone dragon or dragons will be awoken at dragonstone with Jon Snow’s ‘kings blood’ – hopefully not enough to kill him.

  88. JSchmeh,

    I disagree. It’s very easy to do with camera angles. All you needed was to have a white dog of similar look in front of the camera looking away from it so you only see the back of his head. It could even be a dummy. Jon walks up to the camera, ruffles the fur (which is out of focus so you can’t tell it’s not a real wolf). Cut to reverse angle with Jon walking away from the shot we got with Ghost in the background and everyone is happy.

  89. I feel like this episode could feature a lot of similar scenes to past events. History repeating itself and characters coming full circle. The most obvious is Jaime and Cersei. I believe wildfire will come into play. Jaime may wind up killing Cersei in the throne room and find himself seated on the throne as Jon,Dany, or Tyrion barge in, much like Ned Stark did all of those years ago. I feel like this could be the final scene. Although if one of the core four characters die, that would likely be the ending.

  90. QueenofThrones,

    I wonder if the Season 7 storylines lacked weight and were virtually forgotten by these non ‘super fans’ is they were rushed and never given time to ‘breath’. If we’d actually seen the whole War of the Reach, if we’d seen the Tarly’s desert the Tyrells, then that storyline might have felt more like something happened – instead it felt like ticking some plot development boxes. Similar 6.10 – 7.01 Arya killing the Freys it was both a big thing but also utterly forgettable because it was rushed and there was no build up or story telling.

  91. Bobdole:
    Also, they are really milking Cersei for all she’s worth. Lena must have something on D+D.
    Cersei, as a villain, should have been eliminated 2 seasons ago. This plot point is a dead end. Ok, she has King’s Landing, so what? Dany has dragons.
    Have they not read up on how Harrenhal was taken down? You can put all the ballistas/ scorpion weapons you want, Dany can send her dragons at the dead of night, flying straight down and blow up the Red Keep.
    It’s so contrived how they are keeping Cersei living for so long. She is no threat and that’s the reason anything after the Short Night doesnt feel gripping.

    This. The problem is dragons are nukes. Dany could have flanked Eurons ships and torched them. The scorpions are on the front of the ships… Bye bye Euron in Ep 4.

    Dany could strafe the city walls at night and take out all those wall scorpions and then flame the front gate while Jon attacks at night. Boom.

    Also, Arya is basically a nuke. Take a face, infiltrate the Red Keep and assasinate everyone in their sleep or poison them all. Shes already done this.

    But D&D CANT do this because they have a “story” to tell so they find ways to ignore what any half intelligent person would do in favor of illogical plots and dumbing characters down. Its a little frustrating and why sans not being able to sign all these actors for 2 more years, why they had cram everything into season 8.

    Yes they are longer episodes, but giving all these story lines their due in this amount of time just isnt fair.

    Im hoping its enjoyable at least.

  92. If Cersei dies this episode, then Lena Headey would have only appeared in half the season. Would she be eligible for an Emmy nomination?

  93. I hope that Arya kills the mountain. Then the Hound wears the Mountains armor and kills Qyburn. Let Gray Worm have Cersei. Royal wedding for Jon and Daenerys. They have a bbq reception courtesy Varys. The end.

  94. Sadistic Arya Stan:
    It may sound sick to say, but I’m really interested in seeing Arya fight the living. She’s killed people before, sure, but not in a grand battle setting. She killed a lot of wights, but that’s not the same as taking someone’s life. I’m ready to see her rack up so many more kills….Real kills.

    I really want Arya to kill Euron. Wipe that smug off of his face. I wished one of the Sand Snakes had got him last season, not b/c I loved them but b/c I like the idea of someone he wouldn’t think could do it.

  95. If Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying is meant to be taken literally, signs point to Dany joining Drago and her baby in the Night Lands.

    But Jon’s not looking so important now, either, with the NK dead and his purpose fulfilled. I really don’t think The Lord of Light cares about Cersei. LOL

    Sansa is already manipulating people to get rid of Dany. I don’t believe she thinks Jon would be a better ruler than her, either, so make that two targets on Jon’s back. Y’all might think she would never, but I think she would. She’s learned from the best, remember? One saving grace for Jon in that scenario is that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but Sansa knows he has a better claim to the throne and she’d never fully trust him. Better for Jon to be dead and her take her chances on to Ayra about it.

    The leaves us with Tyrion, who, if he plays his cards right, can be loyal long enough to Dany so that she names him her heir (she said she would after she claimed the throne). Yeah, he’s much older, but Missandei is gone, it sure as shit won’t be Jon when she finds out he blabbed. If he keeps her trust long enough to make it official, he’d be her heir if she does indeed go mad. I feel this is a long shot, but it’s possible.

    I’ve tried to think of ways everyone could have something and be happy and sad at the same time. LOL Tyrion be granted Castle Rock. Gendry already has the Stormlands. Robyn’s still in The Vale. Apparently there’s still a Martell in Dorne. They don’t even talk about The Reach so that’s anybody’s game. The problem with my nice little bowtied package is that while Sansa could be granted The Riverlands, she obviously wants The North. And Jon has no ties to anywhere but The North. So either Dany is like, this isn’t what I thought it would be and goes back to Essos, leaving Jon KL, or one of them has to die. 🙁

  96. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I could absolutely see that. It would also make sense as to why Bran saw Jaime killing Aerys in his vision montage, and why Bran thought he was important enough to save from his family’s revenge.

  97. trarecar:
    If Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying is meant to be taken literally, signs point to Dany joining Drago and her baby in the Night Lands.

    The leaves us with Tyrion, who, if he plays his cards right, can be loyal long enough to Dany so that she names him her heir (she said she would after she claimed the throne).

    Yes, I’ve always wondered if Dany’s vision of Drogo in the HOtU means that he really is waiting for her to join him before he crosses over into the Night Lands.

    As for Tyrion, he’s been loyal up to now, but Dany will be furious if she finds out he told Varys about Jon being a Targ. That worries me. Still, my guess is that Tyrion will survive to the end.

  98. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I don’t think so. The obvious deaths of this episode are Cersei and co. + Jamie and probably the Hound. Grey Worm may also bite the dust, unless D&D intend to send him to Naath with Missandei’s ashes. Varys is also a very good candidate: Jon won’t be thrilled about his attempt to sheme behind his and Dany’s backs. So, we may lose like 8 characters and even though half of them are baddies, I imagine that the major deaths of good guys have to stand out a bit. Therefore, they may be reserved for the last episode.
    Tyrion may go as a participant of Varys’es plot, if he contunues to betray Dany. If Dany is to die, most probably she’ll be attacked by some assassin, hired by Varys or Cersei. If Jon is to die, most probably, he’ll die defendng her: I can’t see Jon turning on his only Targarian relative who also happens to be the women he loves and the person who saved his ass more than once. IMO, he sees looking after her as his new duty as a protector of the realm and he has more faith in Dany than any of her “advisors” and he knows her muh better than them. And Arya is sort of dead already: she’s unable to get life, she leaves Winterfell for good, she can still do a kill or two, but from the character development perspecive she is descending into darkness, and there is no return.

  99. Inga,

    We’ll see. But I fail to see why Gwendoline Christie would say fans would all need therapy after the season and how there could be another Red Wedding type episode/event if characters we love all make it out alive. Sure, Jaime,Cersei,Varys, and the Hound all dying would be a huge loss of characters who have been central to the story from the very first season, but it would hardly make fans feel like they would need therapy. Only one of the core four(Dany,Jon,Tyrion, and Arya) could pack that type of emotional punch. And frankly, the show has been setting up Dany to be the one who falls.

  100. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I also do wonder if Arya is safe – The Faceless Men always seemed to me an organization you couldn’t just walk away from without huge repercussions, especially if you are still using the skills you were taught for your own purposes. I wonder if we’ll see Jaqen at some point before the end to extract a life from the girl who told him exactly where she was going.

  101. Inga,

    Hey, I’m also on board that E5 is about the Lannister siblings. Cersei’s baby dies, Euron torched, Cleganebowl, Jaime kills Cersei.

    I’m unsure about Drogon. Maybe he dies, but enough Dothraki and Unsullied are left to give Daenerys a decent position against the other kingdoms. Or Drogon is left and her troups are diminished.

    E6 should be about Jon and Daenerys, the two main characters. Varys dies. Jon will be conflicted, as will Tyrion. Jon not only between love and duty but also between his two families. I am really unsure how it plays out. They stressed the implausibility of the marriage and the plausibility of Daenerys as a dictator so much, that I can somehow imagine it could actually be the other way around, “the twist of the twist”, but it’s probably only my wishful thinking (cliche: the baby that brings Jon and Dany together). Sansa and Arya may accept Daenerys as queen-consort with Jon. If Jon dies, no way they will accept her.

    I don’t think Arya is descending into darkness, in a way she’s just trying to be a cool-sounding teenager when she’s in the company of the Hound. I wouldn’t even be surprised if she pays a visit to Gendry, if D&D want to be romantic. That’s also not going back to Winterfell.

  102. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Inga,

    Sure, Jaime,Cersei,Varys, and the Hound all dying would be a huge loss of characters who have been central to the story from the very first season, but it would hardly make fans feel like they would need therapy.

    Speak for yourself. 🙂 Jaime dying will cause me quite a bit of mental distress. Even though we are almost certain it will happen, I’ll still be gutted. For that matter, I really don’t want to see Varys burnt alive either. He’s always been one of my favorite characters. But Jaime, please, not today.

  103. Danny,

    > I also do wonder if Arya is safe

    I’ve actually also wondered, because if Cleganebowl happens, and Jaime kills Cersei, something must delay Arya in the Red Keep. Will she choose to rescue someone? Or will she find someone on her way to Cersei?

    If Daenerys descents into a kind of madness and dies, fans will be less devastated than when she, or Jon, Arya or Tyrion dies while being primarily a “good” character. But Tyrion is somehow safe, because we need someone to represent the Westerlands.

    I guess Sansa is the safest bet on who will live. Next Yara, Gendry, Robin, Edmure, Sam (or Bronn?), and Tyrion.

  104. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Speaking of callbacks, I wonder if we’ll also see Dany emerging from wildfire flames, to everyone’s astonishment. (Then possibly having an assassin kill her before everyone can process this.)

  105. Viz:
    JSchmeh,

    I disagree. It’s very easy to do with camera angles. All you needed was to have a white dog of similar look in front of the camera looking away from it so you only see the back of his head. It could even be a dummy. Jon walks up to the camera, ruffles the fur (which is out of focus so you can’t tell it’s not a real wolf). Cut to reverse angle with Jon walking away from the shot we got with Ghost in the background and everyone is happy.

    The problem with that is that you would easily be able to tell the difference between a dog and a wolf at that age. The image would have to be so out of focus that there wouldn’t be any point in doing it. And people would have complained like crazy if it didn’t look right. As I said it would have been too much work for a 2 to 3 second shot. I know people are really attached to the direwolves, but they really haven’t played that big of role in the show.

    I say all of this, being someone who loved them and really wished they could have done more with them. But I understand why they didn’t. If you look at the scene with Arya and Nymeria, Nymeria looks really weird because of how much they enlarged her.

  106. Renly’s Peach: Speak for yourself.Jaime dying will cause me quite a bit of mental distress.Even though we are almost certain it will happen, I’ll still be gutted.For that matter, I really don’t want to see Varys burnt alive either.He’s always been one of my favorite characters.But Jaime, please, not today.

    Let me vote for living Jaime as well. He is 75% of the reason I watch GOT. He is odds of surviving are low as he is heading back into serious danger all by his one-handed stubborn self. Brienne’s arc was a big part of his survival hopes but dude has messed up with that.

    Sansa should be fine unless she stubbs her toe and falls down the stairs at WF.

    Jon is dead already. And how can two women – one that rides a pet dragon and one that can switch faces – just fit back into normal society? Should they not move to a more magical place to live? Tyrion is prolly fine.

  107. Mango,

    > Jon is dead already.

    He has been reborn. And once Davos hears that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, he will understand what the message of the Lord of light was, i.e. he wants to have Jon on the throne. Just wishful thinking.

  108. Che,

    I really don’t hope Cersei gets hold on Jon.

    But that way Dany’s character will not go down as the villain in the show.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I have to disagree partly here, season 8 was focused heavily on the character moments. Episode 1 was almost only character moments, same as episode 2, episode 3 was mostly battle which is just one plotpoint, defeating the NK. Episode 4 first 50 minutes was only character moments. After that it was one plot shift and again character moments.

    As for not showing some scenes, do we really need to see the reaction of very character in GoT to the revelation of Jon’s past. We got it in 7×07, 8×01, 8×02 and again in 8×04, and probably again in 8×05 and 8×06. If they showed everyone people were complaining why they didn’t skip it.

    As for the most plot based season I have to say that is season 2, every scene was there only to serve the plot. Not surprisingly the story was massive and needed to be trimmed, a 12 episode season needed to be crammed into 10 episodes, and HBO wasn’t keen on big episodes back then, no 80 minute episodes.

    Season 5 was also more plotwise than 8.

    I think the bigger problem is that the character moments are now heavily on Jon and Dany only, it’s all about the truth. Everything concerns them and not really the rest anymore.

    In the past we got maybe 10 minutes aftermath after a battle, max. Now we got 50 minutes.

    This season is more character based than people realized at first. Instead of following 10 storylines in a 10 episode season (which results in 1 episode per storyline) we got now 6 massive episodes to focus on just 2 massive storylines.

    People are just mad that their theories about the white walkers didn’t came true or because they didn’t have the book first, if you can’t complain that the adaption is not good, complain in another fashion. And like the complain of that starbucks cup. Even LotR had a big mistake like that in the theatrical version where gandalfs watch was show. Mistakes like that happen a lot, only got gets a lot of backlash of it.

  109. Mango: Let me vote for living Jaime as well. He is 75% of the reason I watch GOT.He is odds of surviving are low as he is heading back into serious danger all by his one-handed stubborn self. Brienne’s arc was a big part of his survival hopes but dude has messed up with that.

    Another vote for Jaime’s survival here. But if he has to die, please let him die after telling Cersei off and being the one to kill her. And then let him linger long enough for Brienne to get there.
    I know. I know. But please? *sniffle*
    “I dreamed of you”

  110. Scott,

    Excellent post. I also think Dany will be seeking out magical solutions, she has witnessed blood magic first hand. The only missing thing is whether Dany knows about Jon’s resurrection by Melisandre? Regardless, blood magic doesn’t require king’s blood, though it will be chilling if Dany seeks that out, because the only possibilities are Jon or Gendry. Ack. If Davos, possibly is the one to tell her about Jon’s lazarusing, let’s hope he’s also the one to tell her how futile it was to burn Shireen because of her king’s blood…

    Kinvara is a good call. And I also think Varys will be involved, and his story is probably one of the only one’s we’ll get to understand. We know from the books that a man ringed in fire was one of the shadows MMR called in Drogo’s tent, so someone is getting roasted. Only death can pay for life.

    (Unfortunately the other shadow in the book was a Wolf).

    I’m also pretty sure at this point that more dragons will be raised.

  111. Danny,

    But that’s more to do with that we don’t have 10/12 storylines at the same time, but just focus on 1 at the time. Take a random season, take one main character, only watch their scenes and look how fast those story’s are plot progressing.

    For instance Dany season 3, taking Astapor was around 15 minutes, going to Yunkaii 5 minutes, taking Yunkaii around 20 minutes. Her whole season 3 arc that consist of taking 2 huge cities and travelling between them was around 40/45 minutes, less than an episode. Look at how long in episode 8×04 the whole winterfell part was the aftermath of the battle of the long night, it took longer.

    The problem is not the story progressing to fast, it’s too less storylines to make you feel the story doesn’t progress fast.

  112. For those who want Bran something important to do, I can only imagine this one: Daenerys goes totally villain in E6, calls dracarys for Jon, and Bran wargs into Drogon just before to prevent it.

    I don’t see it happen, but it’s an option if Drogon doesn’t die in E5 (and Daenerys doesn’t fly off with him).

  113. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    fdr,

    Jon fell just to be resurrected and rise again harder and stronger:)

    Sure, Dany is at her lowest for the moment, but that implies a rise rather than a fall (if there is to be the final fall, it should come after the rise). Besides that, someone has to take out Cersei, and I don’t see how it could be done otherwise, than by Dany and her last dragon and what’s left of her armies. Even if Dany decides to abdicate in Jon’s favour, it’s not like KL will rise against Cersei supporting Jon. IDK, maybe it would be possible to orchestrate an uprisal in one episode (which still has to deal with many other things) – like Davos smuggles Gendry into KL and Gendry tells everyone that Jon is cool and everyone decides to support him… But Gendry can tell the same about Dany and even more: after all it was she who legitimized him taking a risk or raising a potential cometitor. And in general, even if the resolution takes the path of a public revolt, Dany’s dragon and forces will be still needet to deal with the GC and Euron. So, one way or another Dany will have to go fire and blood against Cersei.

    And Ep 6 should be about Jon & Dany and others and how they form the new post-war government resolving tensions within their camp, as fdr suggested. That may claim several lives, too, but still Ep 5 should be about dealing with Cersei and Dany should play the leading role, especially after what happended to Missandei.

  114. I don’t know if somebody called it already, but I think (hope) we will see the Fiery Hand this episode.

  115. RG: Another vote for Jaime’s survival here. But if he has to die, please let him die after telling Cersei off and being the one to kill her. And then let him linger long enough for Brienne to get there.
    I know. I know. But please? *sniffle*
    “I dreamed of you”

    Yep. I am with you on that.

    Although I would much rather ” Close the door and come here”. Yowza!

  116. JSchmeh:

    I say all of this, being someone who loved them and really wished they could have done more with them. But I understand why they didn’t. If you look at the scene with Arya and Nymeria, Nymeria looks really weird because of how much they enlarged her.

    What I don’t get is everyone keeps saying they couldn’t have done this when they did exactly the same scene in season four. Ghost is already full grown, the same size he is now, and Jon leans down to rub his head and pet him when they reunite after he destroys Rast.

  117. Inga,

    I’m just going by what I think the show has set up and is telling us. I don’t think it’s just a fake out. I believe that Dany is doomed. Just like in hindsight it was obvious Ned was doomed in season 1 and Robb was doomed in season 3. This isn’t a fall just to rise again storyline. It’s a slow march to her demise.

    I don’t think Dany’s fate is tied to Cersei’s at all. Jaime is the one who is most likely to be the end of her.

  118. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface: This. The problem is dragons are nukes. Dany could have flanked Eurons ships and torched them.The scorpions are on the front of the ships… Bye bye Euron in Ep 4.

    Dany could strafe the city walls at night and take out all those wall scorpions and then flame the front gate while Jon attacks at night. Boom.

    Also, Arya is basically a nuke. Take a face, infiltrate the Red Keep and assasinate everyone in their sleep or poison them all. Shes already done this.

    But D&D CANT do this because they have a “story” to tell so they find ways to ignore what any half intelligent person would do in favor of illogical plots and dumbing characters down. Its a little frustrating and why sans not being able to sign all these actors for 2 more years, why they had cram everything into season 8.

    Yes they are longer episodes, but giving all these story lines their due in this amount of time just isnt fair.

    Im hoping its enjoyable at least.

    This is exactly the core of the problem. Not just Daenerys and Arya, but Bran as well. They’re all severely overpowered. Season 7 Cersei spends half her time on a balcony staring out a window. Dany wouldn’t have needed to destroy King’s Landing to get her. Just burn down one tower of the Red Keep. Alternatively, have Arya infiltrate the castle as easily as she infiltrated the Twins. Or Bran can warg a damn hawk and rip Cersei’s eyeballs out. Seemingly, there is no reason he couldn’t warg the Mountain if he was able to warg Hodor.

    They don’t want to depict these simple solutions because of course they’d be stupid ways to resolve a story, but they’re also exactly what real world people with superpowers would do when presented with a problem. The books are likely going to end up having the same issue. You make your protagonists too powerful, but you don’t want victory to be easy, so the writers come up with increasingly implausible ways to set them back, with Qyburn somehow inventing the Tomahawk missile that can do more damage to a ship than actual cannonballs and penetrate dragon scale at 2,000 meters, even though canonically the only way people in the past ever took down a dragon with a ballista is with a lucky shot to the eyeball. And they need to turn Tyrion and Jon into idiots. And they effectively twist the Army of the Dead from an existential threat to the entire world to basically just a deus ex machina for Cersei that weakens her enemy and levels the playing field, doing absolutely zero damage to anything except Jon and Dany’s armies.

    I’m not sure it needed to be this way, though. So what if it’s easy to take King’s Landing. The show doesn’t have to end with climactic battles. Very few of the best scenes have involved battles. Dany’s experience in Meereen proved that conquering and ruling are not nearly the same thing. And dragons, faceless men, and all-seeing wizards don’t make ruling any easier. She and Jon could have experienced plenty of adversity and challenges without having to implausibly overpower Cersei and her allies to make that adversity happen in battle. Cersei herself has faced enormous challenges throughout the show even though she’s been basically in charge herself or through a proxy for almost the entire run of the story.

  119. Young Dragon,

    So far, Kit and Emilia (both tremendously improved this season) and John B and Maisie get top scores. Not sure if Lena smirking is enough for an Emmy. Peter will probably be nommed, though I’m convinced Nikolaj has been more deserving all along.

  120. JenStar Runner,

    I hope Yara gets her shot at Euron!

    To tie together a few storylines, maybe Arya tries and fails to kill The Mountain (portended by the “straw man” comment from Anguy when she was training in archery), so Sandor needs to use/confront fire to save her and kill Gregor (what is dead may never die but it can be burnt). Arya then needs to mercy kill a badly burned Gregor.

  121. You know what’s an easier way to counter balance the heroes being too overpowered? Keep Euron as the same magical type character he is in the books. Let him have his dragonbinding horn and have him steal a dragon instead of killing one.

    Adam,

  122. ShameShameShame,

    I agree with all of that, but my question was pertaining to whether or not Lena Headey could even be considered for nomination if she only appeared in half the season.

  123. Adam: What I don’t get is everyone keeps saying they couldn’t have done this when they did exactly the same scene in season four. Ghost is already full grown, the same size he is now, and Jon leans down to rub his head and pet him when they reunite after he destroys Rast.

    Just watched that clip, and you are right. You can tell they weren’t in the same place and you never actually see him touch him. But with camera trickery it looks like they are together and he pets him. They definetly could have done some thing like that. I stand corrected.

  124. Young Dragon,

    Ellen Burstyn was nominated for an Emmy in 2006 and had a total of 14 seconds of screen time, so I don’t think there is a minimum screen time requirement, but I can’t say for sure.

  125. Young Dragon:
    ShameShameShame,

    I agree with all of that, but my question was pertaining to whether or not Lena Headey could even be considered for nomination if she only appeared in half the season.

    According to this:

    “For most individual achievement categories, only one episode is required to be submitted; if an episode is a two-parter, both parts may be included on the submitted DVD.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primetime_Emmy_Award#Rules

    Actors and Actresses can be nominated for single episodes. Show have to have a minimum of 6 episodes for awards, but it doesn’t matter for individual awards.

  126. I just hope however GoT ends, it will be an actual ending with no loose ends or anything ambiguous to suggest that a sequel is possible. Please just let this show die a respectful, dignified death.

    Once it dies, don’t let the Lord of Light bring it back.

  127. Mr Derp:
    I just hope however GoT ends, it will be an actual ending with no loose ends or anything ambiguous to suggest that a sequel is possible.Please just let this show die a respectful, dignified death.

    Once it dies, don’t let the Lord of Light bring it back.

    Someone in another thread posted their theory that at the end of episode 6 we would see that there was a new NK. I said I don’t think that this is likely because it would make it to easy for HBO to try and make a sequel. I think both D&D and GRRM will tie this off in a way that, although some will survive and time goes on, there really won’t be a cliffhanger or a simple way to create a sequel.

  128. Mr Derp,

    I’m up for a groundbreaking medieval fantasy comedy spin-off called ‘The Inn’, featuring Hot Pie and friends. Think of it as ‘Cheers’ meets ‘GOT’. Who wouldn’t watch that?

  129. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Mr Derp,

    I’m up for a groundbreaking medieval fantasy comedy spin-off called ‘The Inn’, featuring Hot Pie and friends. Think of it as ‘Cheers’ meets ‘GOT’. Who wouldn’t watch that?

    Lol, that sounds pretty great. Can I just throw in Davos as the bartender? I’d be all over that!

  130. ShameShameShame,

    Emilia deserve an Emmy for this season. The many facets of Dany she brought perfectly to the screen.

    but that counts for all of them, the cast is perfect this season.

    Mr Derp,

    Lord, cast your light upon this show, your servant. Bring it back from death and darkness. It’s flame has been extinguished, restore it!

    Well I won’t mind a sequel with the hound and Arya both set sail to west and explore the land west of westeros.

  131. Maybe WOTW should come out with a new article after the show is over asking fans what the best spin-off ideas would be?

    I’m already enjoying “The Inn” more than the cash cows, uh, I mean prequels.

  132. JamesL:
    AlvWaynwood,

    The writing has not gone down in quality. Yes, there are flaws to criticize but they have always been there. The difference is that the overall plot of the story isn’t as good as the earlier seasons. This is the same issue that happened to GRRM after ASOS. The story peaks in ASOS and after that it loses many aspects that made the story so great (Stark-Lannister war, Sansa as a hostage, Tyrion in Kings Landing, Arya’s adventures, Joffrey, Tywin). The story reboots and just isn’t as good.

    The way people talk about the show now you would think GRRM kept releasing masterpieces after ASOS and had finished the story in a great way. A plot line like the White Walkers is almost impossible to do in a way that would satisfy people. If the White Walkers become the main narrative of the story people would not like it because it is now a story of humans vs evil beings and lacks the great human drama that the story originally had. Any way which the WW’s are defeated, whether it be an Arya stab or Jon Snow wielding a magical sword that somehow defeats them, will get an underwhelming reaction. The WW aspect only really works as a mysterious background plot.

    Luckily GRRM won’t have to worry about this. He will never finish the story but will be given the benefit of the doubt that he would have done so in a great way. He will never have to do the hardest part, give satisfying answers to mystical plot aspects like WW’s and the 3 Eyed Raven. D&D don’t have that luxury. They have to end this story now and of course be hated for not doing so in the great way people think GRRM will.

    I fully agree with you here, on all points. I also found the books a bit boring after ASOS, I think GRRM has not finished them because it is super hard to go from where he is now to a fully satisfying end (he’s stuck), and the showrunners are getting the blame quite unfairly. (

    I also think some points in their writing is sloppy. In particular the way they have treated Tyrion’s character and dialogue lines so far, compared to former seasons; obviously, Shae’s betrayal and killing his father did not improve his character, but he seems to have blandished rather than gained in complexity. When he was in Essos, one could think “it’s not a place he knows, and is still recovering”, but in Westeros, I find this a bit disappointing. And my other disappointment is the way they deal with the Jon/Dany story, that lacks the space and screentime to draw the story as convincingly as, according to me, it should or could (heart in conflict, love/duty, identity, etc.). For the rest, I’m quite happy, and won’t nitpick on stuff that just rest on suspension of disbelief or fiction-writing (like time lines, ellipses, surprise attacks, bad battle strategy, how did this character learn information x, etc): I think one could find as many in any great film, series, novel or play, if one was intent on finding them. There’s so much to enjoy (still great scenes, gorgeous photography and camera work, acting, etc., and interesting characters,…)!

  133. Mr Derp: Lol, that sounds pretty great.Can I just throw in Davos as the bartender?I’d be all over that!

    Can this be filmed and written in the style of “Are You Being Served?” lol

  134. RG,

    Thank you for saying all of this, so I didn’t attempt to. 🙂 I agree on every point.
    Sansa was right. Dany was arrogant and foolish. And what the hell- Why no recon? You even have internet boy at your disposal. Even if the ambush couldn’t be predetermined, you should know going in about the deck mounted the scorpions.

    It’s too bad, really. They could have avoided such obvious plotholes and paced this season so much better, had they kept with 10 episodes. Trim the fat and flesh out the good stuff.

  135. Brandon,

    Ha! I dunno, her upper-hand status may or may not hold….I have a feeling that we are going to be asked to re-believe that dragons are legendary battle weapons instead of easy long range weapon targets. But who knows, there’s no telling what this week’s characterization will be!

  136. Ryan:
    They obviously want everyone to think Dany will go mad and Jon has to kill her.

    A more “bittersweet” ending which makes more sense to me and with GRRMs writing is that Dany wins and effectively becomes queen, but it costs her everything – dragons, friends, armies, and Jon… who dies fighting a war he didn’t care about after he managed to defeat the AOTD.Dany is wrecked with grief and hands over the ruling to a “council” of Tyrion, Davos, Sansa, and others.Fits the ‘bittersweet’ as Dany rids the world of tyranny but loses everything; GRRM is an anti-war pacifist so having Jon die as a product of a conflict he didn’t want would fit.

    You know you’re in the endgame when even the subversive ending is seen as predictible

    Jon undramatically just dying in random battle #5?

    Yeah, I don’t see it. I dont think we’ve ever seen a major character die in battle (well, Stannis but even that was AFTER the battle).

    When this show kills major characters it’s through betrayals, backstabbings, manipulations, assassination, etc.

    And now Jon would just die in a battle?

    Sure…

  137. Raenarys:
    Titles aside, we need to hurry up with these last two episodes before people lose their mind concocting theories.

    I heard one yesterday of Daenerys literally becoming a dragon.

    Viserys : You don’t want to wake the dragon do you?
    Olenna : You’re a dragon, be a dragon
    Messandei : All men must die/ Dany: But we are not men.

    Just stop *insert whiny face emoji*

    Confirmed: Dany will LITERALLY morph into a dragon in the finale.

  138. Boojam:
    Miguel Sapochnik has said E3,E4 and E5 make a whole story… which is very intriguing!
    That is hard to figure given what we have seen in Ep3 and 4.
    Thus what the hell is episode 6 be like?!
    There are about 500 loose ends that need to be gathered and I am hard put to see this can be done in the next 2.6 hours.
    A battle bigger than Ep 3 ?
    I am figuring that the biggest surprises in season 8 are about to happen, at least I hope so.

    Yeah, I’m having trouble seeing how that would work.

    Ep3 doesn’t seem like any sort of beginning.
    Ep4 doesn’t seem like any sort of middle

    And I doubt Ep5 will seem like an ending.

    The ONLY thing I can think of is that we might lose a dragon in three consecutive episodes.

    3 –> Viserion dead (again)
    4 –> Rheagal dead
    5 –> Drogon dead

    Other than that I don’t see how 3-5 could be one story?

  139. King in the North East: Confirmed: Dany will LITERALLY morph into a dragon in the finale.

    Hey, the Mad King didn’t expect to die, but thought he would burn with the rest of them and then be reborn as a dragon. Oh wait. That dude was nuts.

  140. King in the North East,

    I wonder if Miguel was referring to ‘a time for wolves’. Arya has killed the NK (Stark).

    Jon and Sansa were certainly celebrated more in the hall. Arya as well, even though she wasn’t there. (Stark.)

    I wonder if Jon or Arya get another big moment that overshadows Dany, making it again a ‘Stark’ moment.

    Consequently, it is also a fall for Dany.

    That’s all I got.

  141. JamesL: He will never finish the story but will be given the benefit of the doubt that he would have done so in a great way.

    Well, I don’t know if we can say that.

    I give it 25% chance he still completes it (roughly corresponding to his life expectancy)

    YOU ARE SO RUDE AND INSENSITIVE, KING OF THE NORTH EAST!!!

    Am I?

    YES!!! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED!!!!

    Okay. I just thought that–

    YOU THOUGHT WHAT? LET THE MAN BE!!!!

    Alright, alright… I’m sorry.

    YOU’D BETTER BE!!!

    (I got that out of the way, so that nobody else has to. You’re welcome.)

  142. I hope Jon brings some siege equipment to Kings Landing. If not, why he and his army didn’t go with ships? Sansa said that army needs a rest, and if they do not bring siege equipment with them, why would tired army go on 1 month march (or more because of some snow) if they could more or less rest on ships.

  143. King in the North East: Yeah, I’m having trouble seeing how that would work.

    Ep3 doesn’t seem like any sort of beginning.
    Ep4 doesn’t seem like any sort of middle

    And I doubt Ep5 will seem like an ending.

    The ONLY thing I can think of is that we might lose a dragon in three consecutive episodes.

    3 –> Viserion dead (again)
    4 –> Rheagal dead
    5 –> Drogon dead

    Other than that I don’t see how 3-5 could be one story?

    There are a few stories in that trio we can look at.

    The most obvious is Dany’s

    Episode 3-Dany just learned Jon is her nephew, so she loses her champion, over half of her army and her love in one long night.
    Episode 4-She loses support from her advisors, she loses another dragon and she loses her best friend
    Episode 5-is what she does with all that loss.

    Jon’s
    Episode 3-for the first time he is not pivotal in a battle, but they still win despite heavy casualties. His main mission is over.
    Episode 4-His sisters and aunt/lover/queen are pulling him in different directions, but he tells the truth anyway and heads south again, leaving behind all his true allies and Ghost just so he’s especially vulnerable and looks like he’s never coming back.
    Episode 5-I have no idea but I’m really hoping he doesn’t die.

    Jaime’s
    Episode 3-He fights for a just cause beside Brienne and survives against all odds
    Episode 4-He gives into his feelings and experiences actual happiness, discovers his sister has hired someone who could have killed him and his brother, and then hears more bad news and ends up leaving that happiness abruptly, as if he’s never coming back.
    Episode 5-will show us if decades of character development gets thrown out the window or not.

    Honestly though-a more overarching theme is saving the realms of men. That might have been what Miguel was thinking of.

    in 3 they saved it from death and eternal winter and the great other
    in 4 they are having a lot of discussions about who will eventually lead the realm they are saving. Sides are being taken and decisions are being made. The first skirmish in the battle occurs-as well as the deaths of Rhaegal and Missandei. Also I’m pretty sure betrayals we are as yet unaware of are taking place everywhere.
    in 5 they are taking on the last obstacle to saving the realm, that queen who would rather destroy the world and everyone in it than let go of her stupid, pointy throne.

    How they do this and what happens immediately after will determine how it ends.
    How it ends. (totally said that in young Ned’s Tower of Joy voice haha)

  144. Hodors Bastard,

    Lol, watch/hatewatch. As for being wrong/ I’ve been wrong on all my predictions- I figure why not entertain full on crack at this point- it’s gotta be less disappointing when these things don’t pan out. Im taking this train all the way to Crackistan.

    I want Sandor to remove dead mountain’s helmet, only to reveal the head of Robert Baratheon. #kingsblood.

  145. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I can agree, that the show is setting up Dany’s demise but it should be demise on her own terms to make it satisfactory. Otherwise it’s just doom and gloom.
    And it’s also important to Jon’s story, cause what is Jon’s story now exactly? He was build up as a hero destined to kill the big bad; he accepted his identity as the protector of the realm for the same reason. But at the final moment he was robbed of his big kill. In fact, I expected Jon to have some self-reflection regarding this, some reassessment of his destiny. Maybe, we’ll get that in Ep 5 or 6. But anyway, now it looks like he identified his new destiny to be looking after Dany who is alone in the world and that’s a terrible thing. He struggles to build a new Stark-Targ family for her and for himself; he’s failing but he still has hope. And indeed, ruling this situation out without major losses is an ultimate ordeal to him as a potential ruler. So, Dany’s demise would be Jon’s failure, which would destroy him.
    And if Jon is destroyed and Dany is destroyed and Tyrion is destroyed (yes, Dany’s demise would be his failure too), who is left to make the world a better place?

  146. RG,

    Yeah, I see some themes here and there too, but I wouldn’t think it constitutes a story necessarily.

    So far it seems more like 1-3 being a story and 4-6 being a story.

    But we’ll see. Maybe there’s something else.

  147. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

    Or in the style of Arrested Development, and of course narrated by Ron Howard.

    Narrator: Sandor Clegane was just on the way to the inn to enjoy a nice cooked meal. But only when arriving at the inn, he found out they were already out of Chickens.

    King in the North East,

    Maybe ending rivals. Or maybe the transformation of Dany is made clear here. She loses her allies in episode 3 and 4 and the result will be shown in episode 5.

    RG,

    This

  148. RG: The most obvious is Dany’s

    Episode 3-Dany just learned Jon is her nephew, so she loses her champion, over half of her army and her love in one long night.
    Episode 4-She loses support from her advisors, she loses another dragon and she loses her best friend
    Episode 5-is what she does with all that loss.

    Actually, now that I think about it, this does make the most sense out of everything I’ve heard.

    Of course this also implies…

    That her story could end next episode.

    Damn.

  149. Iceman240857:
    These comment sections are turning into my local Facebook Community page…with the same haters hammering the same issue in their heads over and over again. Please just ignore them. It’s like arguing with someone on social media about politics…nothing good comes from it. Leave the bridge trolls alone.

    The next two episodes will culminate a journey of 10 years on TV, and almost 25 for me with reading the books. GRRM gave the ending so we will at least get that accurately done. And with all the signs pointing one way…you know it’s going the other. At least one “bad guy” will survive and many fan faves will fall. And some will (GOD FORBID) have some plot armor!Oh no!!Yeah, I’m fine with that so that we can get to the good stuff. I don’t need two more seasons explaining the details of 17 prophecies and why the NK was created and So on.

    I’m clinging to Littlefinger still being around with that faceless man trade in WF. Come on, let me be right on one wild ass theory!

    For those who are loving this series and not hating on everything because a certain plot point was shit or a little bad writing…I hold my Tormund Drinking Horn high for you and will drink in your honor!!

    Iceman I am with you, the conclusion of this series ends last 15 years of my life and it’s breaking my heart!

  150. Young Dragon,

    People say a lot of things when people are reading online! People also haven’t paid attention properly when people read the books as to how Martin approached the Others or people would remember that Martin did not in fact advance too much of the Other plot in his 5 books but kept it as a looming threat in the background and if he finishes the books in the same vein it will most likely be with people being disappointed because Martin tended to focus a LOT on the characters’ journey not the AOTD one.

    As you see people are at the point where people cannot truly remember what Martin wrote or how(?). People should probably keep in mind that people were warned by the author that he’s a huge fan of Tolkien. Couldn’t miss it actually because Martin won’t stop talking about LotR. And he said time and again that he will finish it similarly. He also thinks the Scouring of the Shire was the best piece of fantasy lit (probably best piece of lit) out there. Which puts the ending part of the books after the defeat of the Big Supernatural Bad called Sauron. So there’s that.

    I think people can be very stubborn and since he’s also human, so can Martin. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  151. JamesL,

    Ahh, Always the optimist JamesL. Always the optimist. I feel already brimming with hope as the new release of Winds is bound to drop anytime soon-ish.

  152. Heres a crazy theory:

    Sansa and Littlefinger are in cahoots. LF did use a faceless man to take his place and he left. Sansa conned everyone with a fake trial/execution.

    She conspires to get rid of Danys support by putting it behind Jon.

    Somewhere in the last episode LF reveals himself and through some illogical plot device Sansa marries LF and becomes queen

    Now that would be quite the twist.

    (I dont really expect this but what the heck)

  153. RG,

    Would it not also save the realm if Daenerys would simply stops and ends the threat of war? There is only a major war because the two women are fighting over the throne. With the threat of her dragon, Daenerys still has the upper hand so that is unlikely that she stops.

    Of course, Cersei is a failed queen because she did not help with the AOTD, so she deserves to be removed. And she was not a great person, ever. Yes, Cersei could give up to stop Daenerys killing everyone to get what Daenerys wants.

    However, Cersei’s unsuitability is a different issue from Daenerys relentless ambition to have the same pointy chair. Daenerys is also unsuitable. (I do not think she is mad. But her decision-making and temperament are not the best for ruling.)

    So, what if neither of the two witches gets the pointy chair?

    What if there is a meeting of a Great Council and it goes to another person? This is where it needs to go.

    Almost anyone else is better than these two power-hungry witches: Tyrion, Sansa, Davos, Bran(?!!!), undead Jon (!!!!), Jaime, Brienne, Gendry, Mr Dorne Prince, Yara, even Hot Pie!

    Tyrion and Jaime are the most qualified due to their years in leadership at the top level of running the country but the others all would also be better than Daenerys and Cersei. Jon is popular in the north but he is undead, so there is that.

    End of main point…

    I did not mention the Sept as: Unlike a lot of others I do not sweat taking down the Sept, High Sparrow made a major challenge, almost a declaration of war. He was about to become de facto king. The number of casualties was terrible, however. Cersei’s judgment was not the best on this decision. Some citizens may be still upset but they knew that HS was looking for trouble when that walk of shame went down.

  154. Viz,

    I am not a big fan of Cleganebowl and think it may not happen. Sandor has changed quite a lot since leaving the city and has learned more about himself. I think he is full of remorse and wants to be different, be a better man. How it plays out remains to be seen, of course. I can see a path to a deténte between the brothers, maybe even redemption. Cleganebowl is not my first choice of endings for them.

  155. kevin1989: But that’s more to do with that we don’t have 10/12 storylines at the same time, but just focus on 1 at the time. Take a random season, take one main character, only watch their scenes and look how fast those story’s are plot progressing.

    Yes, many people overlook that. 50% of her season 2 story was in episode 10, other than that she got maybe 2 or 3 minute scenes per episode on average.

    And you could indeed pretty much split up all of the leads for most seasons and end up with roughly one 50-60 minute episode worth of material per character. (except for Ned in season 1, his screentime was insane, it took characters like Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys 4 whole seasons to catch up)

  156. I read an article pointing out that there is no way that GOT could end in a way that makes the majority of fans happy. D&D cannot win, they never could.

    There are too many characters and too many fans supporting different characters. There is only one throne so that the majority of fans will likely be disappointed that their guy/girl does not win.

    In addition idea from another discussion, a lot of the fans that write on the internet sites are younger fans and HBO really provides for an older audience with stories about complicated adults. So the GOT end is likely to be unpopular among the netizens but maybe ok among the other TV viewers.

  157. All I know is that Jaime is riding towards his inevitable death.

    Let me take a few moments to mourn him.

    Not the man, the character. One of GRRM’s best written. D&D never did full justice to his character, they had to boost Cersei (a stupid, cartoonish villain in the books). I can understand that, it was the right thing to do for the show, even at Jaime’s characterisation’s expense.

    But let me just mourn Jaime. I’ve known it was coming for years, but now that the time is actually here… It just hurts.

  158. talvikorppi:
    All I know is that Jaime is riding towards his inevitable death.

    Let me take a few moments to mourn him.

    Not the man, the character. One of GRRM’s best written. D&D never did full justice to his character, they had to boost Cersei (a stupid, cartoonish villain in the books). I can understand that, it was the right thing to do for the show, even at Jaime’s characterisation’s expense.

    But let me just mourn Jaime. I’ve known it was coming for years, but now that the time is actually here… It just hurts.

    I am still enjoying the journey while it lasts.

    Sometimes the writer is just exploring a character and themes without him having a place in the end game. This could be what is happening here with Jaime. It seems to be such a waste of a writer’s creative effort, however. You put in this kind of work for a purpose. Plus why keep Brienne around so long….as she is really Jaime’s mate.

    And yes, D&D are fascinated with Cersei. Cersei was a better character earlier when she was more vulnerable – particularly when Tywin was alive. That conversation with King Robert was one of the best moments in the story. Her face waiting for Mycella, oh my! However, she is now so hardened and unidimensional, I think she is less interesting as a character. Rest assured Cersei is in Episode 6. D&D are directing it!

    Anyway, we may see a Romulus and Remus kind of ending.

  159. Y’all are gonna lose your minds when they Saint Elsewhere the whole series at the end of episode six, as it concludes with a door opening and traveling salesman Ned Stark entering his apartment in Dubuke and smiling down at his autistic son Bran, who’s staring into that snow globe with a castle in it that Ned brought back from his last trip.

  160. Winter Wind,

    Or it ends with John Bradley as “Sam” in our world, finishing ASoIaF on a computer in a coffee shop, stealing glances at the secret crush he goes there to see. Played by Hannah Murray of course.

    (Ugh, that would be BAD)

  161. I’m just wondering how many people have personal , as opposed to political reasons for wanting to kill Cersei.

    Dany. Grey Worm. Jon. Sansa. Arya. (Bran). Tyrion, even Jaime. That’s a big chunk of the named character cast.

    Plus all the political opponents, like Varys, Davos, Yara, even Gendry and the new Prince of Dorne.

  162. JSchmeh,

    Yes, yes. The logistics of direwolfing. I think they probably could have made something work.

    His goodbye, or lack thereof, told me that Jon is doomed- which of course is a story thing, not a character thing. This is a very minor grievance anyway- but I felt like it was out of Jons character to part with the special creature he found way back in one of the show’s first scenes, in that way. Like I said- They could have made something work. I don’t believe they had to make Jon ghost Ghost.

  163. talvikorppi: Dany. Grey Worm. Jon. Sansa. Arya. (Bran). Tyrion, even Jaime. That’s a big chunk of the named character cast.

    Plus all the political opponents, like Varys, Davos, Yara, even Gendry and the new Prince of Dorne.

    Heh…maybe they’ll stand in line and get all stabby-stabby on Cersei like the NW nationalists did to Jon.

  164. The 3-4-5 as an arc thing is curious because 5 can’t really resolve the major characters’ arcs. It has to be more than just an “aftermath”, so I kind of expect some story cliffhangers?
    My guess is Euron dies in 5 but Cersei is in 6. Given that 6 is 80(?) minutes, I don’t think Jon or Dany die in 5 either – if they do, I think it will be the very last thing that happens, and the fallout carries into 6.
    Hoping Davis survives, he’s made it this far and the realm needs good advisors!
    I am going to miss all the creative theorizing in the fandom. The show plays out pretty straightforward in comparison, another reason it leaves some people feeling robbed maybe.

  165. 2nd to last episodes of seasons are the best, 2nd to last episode of the series will be epic.

    I think we get the big battle to end this episode, but it carries through to next week. Jon/Dany win the battle for kings landing, breaching the castle walls, but there are still mop up fights next week including Clegane Bowl and whoever finally kills Cercei. Some stories will wrap this week, a lot in the final half of next weeks episode.

  166. Winterkat,

    According to pay, there are 5 main characters: Kit (Jon/Aegon), Emilia (Dany), Nikolai (Jamie), Peter (Tyrion) and Lena (Cersei). I definetly think we will see at least one of their arcs wrapped up this coming episode. I personally believe we will see 2 of them wrapped up for sure and possibly 3 (Jamie and Cersie for sure, with Dany being the possible 3rd).

  167. I have been wondering about whether the parallels between Viserion’s death (the first time) and Rhaegal’s will have further pay off.

    Both being taken down by spears/harpoons; both sinking beneath the water; both to rise again?

    I don’t think Mel’s death is the last we’re going to see of the red priests. I was struggling to come up with what they might do after Kinvara and the others didn’t show up at Winterfell, but reanimating Rhaegal would certainly be a big deal.

  168. Please please please end Jaime and Cersei’s arc with one of them pushing the other out of a window saying, “the things we do for love.”

  169. A really creative death could be having a character be impaled by the iron throne. Haven’t seen that one yet.

  170. Winterkat,

    Brilliant. Clearly the Starbucks cup was signaling this, sort of like a breaking the 4th wall. We now know Gilly is actually a barista at Starbucks 🙂

  171. I hope we finally find out what Varys heard the voice in the flames say.

    I hope it wasn’t Dracarys. :/

  172. Ok. I’ve read all of the comments above this one (I think). And I just have to say that i’m disappointed in all of you. Not one of you did a #HODOR!

    So, i just did.

    Shame (ding) Shame (ding) Shame (ding) on all of you!!

  173. Jennyemelie,

    This is an interesting idea. Would also mirror Jon’s resurrection.
    We have some unfinished business with the lord of light, and followers, it would seem.
    Has Rhaegal washed up in blackwater bay somewhere?

  174. Okay, dammitall… For my Watch Parties this year, I have invested some serious funds into my house/lawn decor for this last season.

    I was cheated out of all the winter ice and snow decorations (a neat trick in Florida) and blue lighting effects by the end of the second episode.

    The flame and fire stuff, okay, that’s still usable; but I better be able to use all my green lights and green fire glow stuff, or I riot.

    (Of course, I have been able to add Starbucks Cups to my serving ware, and Tinfoil Hats to my party favors – a few crumpled and smashed here and there; so at least I’ll always have that.)

    ForTheThrones

  175. OT but Taylor Swift just revealed her last Album Reputation was influenced by GOT and listening to it now I can so see it – KING OF MY HEART IS SUCH A DANY ❤️ KHAL DROGO SONG

  176. Renly’s Peach,

    Could it be something like: “You will help the PTWP to ascend the throne for the good of the people”? That would explain Varys’es continuous search for a perfect monarch.

  177. Mango,

    Tell me how can a great council oust Cersei? She would just stand in her balcony, sip wine, and smirk. Or sit on the IT and sip wine and smirk. Until she dies, she won’t step aside; until she dies, she will be looking for ways to kill everyone and reestablish control. So, no, there’s no peaceful resolution for this conflict.
    There wasn’t since “You win or you die”.

  178. You know what would be really really bad? I mean absolutely terribly bad? D&D mentioned somewhere that they really enjoyed the ending in The Sopranos. Now imagine something like, all the main characters in KL, stashes of wildfire underneath, someone lights them up.. Cut to black. The end. All the intricate, complex fan theories blown away just like that. Peter Dinklage did say, in one interview I remember, that it will definitely be an ending, sounding like they won’t be able to make some sequel from there on. This is the worst theory I could imagine, I mean, it’s not a brilliant dark comedy about mafia, it’s a very complex fantasy saga. I just don’t see how they could make a definite end other than destroying the IT and everybody dying, like in Titus Andronicus, which would again be terrible. Watching all the characters’ arcs and then all ending in black.

  179. You know what would be really bad? I mean absolutely terribly bad? D&D mentioned in an interview they really enjoyed the ending in The Sopranos. Now imagine something like this, all the main characters in KL, stashes of wildfire underneath, someone lights them up.. Cut to black. The end. All the intricate, complex fan theories blown away just like that. Peter Dinklage said in one interview I remember, that this season will definitely be the ending of this story. Sounding like it won’t be possible to make a sequel from there on. It will be a definite end. Now this is not a brilliant dark comedy about mafia, it’s a very complex fantasy saga. Imagine all characters’ arcs ending in black…Wonder how could they make an end end, other than destroying the stupid pointy chair and everybody dying, like in Titus Andronicus, and maybe one character surviving to tell the story. So much for bittersweet. I sure hope I am dead wrong!

  180. Hello all, from an occasional reader who’s come to look at some speculation as I can’t for the life of me work out how the next two episodes play out and end!

    I like the “Jamie kills Cersei like he killed the Mad King” theory. Preferably at the foot of the iron throne, after she declares her intent to burn the whole city with wildfire rather than surrender to Dany.

    I’ve been trying to work out the endgame according to the show’s form, and the “bittersweet ending” hints. I reckon the cruellest end for many of the characters wouldn’t be death. For Jon, it may be having to rule the Seven Kingdoms, despite not remotely wanting to. For Dany, I think the worst of the worst would be a “back to square one” ending. Losing most of her armies, losing Drogon, somehow having to flee back to Essos like she did as a child, with nothing to show for years of effort, having lost her dragons, the sense of identity/destiny that sustained her throughout, and her friends. Also realising that maybe her true home IS Essos after all.

    Regarding Cleganebowl, Gregor is basically undead so the only thing that can kill him is fire. Will Sandor a) realise that in good time and b) be able to use fire to re-kill him…?

    Final crackpot (or maybe not so crackpot) theory: Cersei is not pregnant. She’s supposed to have been pregnant for a good long while now and she’s not remotely showing. And she’s absolutely lie to bind Jamie (unsuccessfully) and Euron (kinda successfully) to her. Looking forward to see if Tyrion mentioning the baby will make him ask questions. As evidenced by his conversation with Yara before Theon frees her, he’s smarter than he lets on and has zero scruples. No way is Cersei fooling him as thoroughly as she thinks.

    Can’t wait to see how splendidly wrong I’ll turn out to be!

  181. Ralu,

    I don’t know man, I just saw a thread where someone compiled all the cast interviews before season 8 came out and most of the responses when asked about this final season/end were not promising if you take them as a whole and if you even somewhat know how to read between the lines/body language.

  182. Inga:
    And there were plenty of subtile hints that Dany’s nowhere near going mad

    I think we’re supposed to see Dnerys and think that she is a person, sound of mind, choosing to be the worst possible version of herself.
    She’s not crazy or going insane with grief and isolation, she’s just letting her power-hungry nature get the better of her.

  183. Sister Kisser:
    Why was Sansa so rude to Sandor?It’s not like learning from Cersei and LF is… cool.

    Wth dude. She was nothing but kind to him, taking his hand and explaining that she had gotten stronger despite LF, Ramsey and the rest.

    On the subject of Sansa, I’m looking forward to seeing what the consequences of her spilling the beans will be. Some assumed she wanted the IT but in fact we don’t know what she was trying to do ¯_(ツ)_/¯

  184. I haven’t seen this anywhere yet. Did anyone notice that Tyrion asked Brienne during the drinking game, you are a virgin, and then Podric drinks. So I thought, that’s how he got the money back from the lovely ladies.
    After rewatching the episodes the story now feels very straight and every theory I read for the ending would not be a major twist to me. I’m not sure how it can happen, but this show deserves a twist like sixth sense. Danny! Remember who you are!

  185. Hodor,

    I took that more to mean that Tyrion asking that about Brienne made him take that drink, because of how uncomfortable the situation was.

    As in: “I can’t believe he just said that. I need a drink.”

  186. The trailer is clearly making it appear that Dany is unravelling (understandably so), and is trolling us hard into believing she’ll turn mad and burn Kings Landing.

    Even Emilia’s initial press interviews talked about how sad she felt about Dany’s end and the countless interviews we’ve been spoon-fed fed about this “divisive” ending.

    I don’t buy any of it. HBO have done this before. Dany will obviously be wallowing in grief and fury after everything she’s lost, that’s really no surprise. But she’ll turn it around and find a way to come out on top. Like she did in S1 and S6.

    Problem is, even with a measured and targeted attack from Drogon, there’s a LOT of Wildfire around that’ll likely go up. So I can possibly see an accidental burning of KL that might make her look like the Mad Queen to bystanders- and the other main characters.

    Also- can’t she just swoop in on a cloudy night to blast the scorpions from above, and tell Drogon to STFU for two minutes instead of shrieking to announce his arrival? Job done 🤷🏼‍♂️

  187. Netheb,

    That’s a valid point, but my point was more about how to defeat a tryrant without fire and blood? Basicly it’s a fundamental issue of the modern warfare, namely, the hybrid warfare, which has turned into a dominating type of warfare nowadays. It’s also a very personal issue to me. When I was young I was all about peaceful resistance and even believed that peaceful resistence could change a tyrant. And nope: history proved me whrong. Tyrants don’t care about how many people they have to kill to stay in power; they start withdrawing and flee only, when their shitty personal lives are threatened with fire and blood. In other words, ending a tyrany requires not only readiness to die, but also readiness to kill. And “violence is not a solution” is a delusional crap.

  188. Netheb,

    Yes, I think that’s the real hard choice Dany’s called to make this season and reach the peak in her arc by doing so. I’ve mentioned elsewhere, the choice is will she be the Queen we all know she can be, doing things with focus on what’s best for the realm, for the everyday people, or will she become consumed by the hunger for power, and become a shadow of what she was and what she could be? I hope that she will choose the better, but harder path.

    And this comes in parallel with Jon’s hard choice, to decide to be Aegon Targaryen with the great danger and rensposnibility and sacrifices that demands or stay a Jon Snow. There’s been an excellent video by Joe Magician regarding Jon’s choice, which I loved.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCH0Yowf3qg&feature=youtu.be

  189. Dothraki Scum,

    Sandor in 7×07 to his brother: You know who is coming for you, you always known.

    He stays very straight forward he is coming for his brother.

    King in the North East,

    True, there are even characters in the first season that only got like 30 minutes max per season.

    Ser Pounce,

    Calling Sopranos a dark comedy? Sopranos is one of the best character driven stories about life. The ending is perfect because it focused on the theme of the show: life. In life there is not endings, if you end one part of you’re life the next has already begone before that.

  190. kevin1989,

    I posted the same thing under 2 different names, because one wouldn’t load, but apparently it has been posted, though I can’t see it. I didn’t mean dark comedy in the ‘ahahaha’ sense, but in the most intelectual way of the genre, more of a Scorsese type of dramatic humor, sorry, in my native language sounded a lot better! I read something different in the ending of The Sopranos but this is a different topic to debate. Back to GoT, and the fact that one of the D’s was raving about the greatness of that show ‘s ending, taking in consideration that maybe he was inspired to apply some of it on this show, which is a different genre, I was just concluding it wouldn’t work. The actors have been pointing out in different occasions that this is going to be the end, with the impossibility of something to continue after this season. I remember now Martin said he really loved LOTR and that bittersweet ending. Mixing Sopranos with Tolkien? I know none of these affirmations should be taken literally. I honestly don’t know how on earth will they arrive to a conclusion. Just hope they won’t blow up everyone with that damn wildfire,they have to have more imagination than this.

  191. One thing I have noticed is that we see the Houses Targaryen, Lannister, Baratheon and Stark on the main sigil at the end of the credits. Suggesting, of course, the four main houses of Westeros.

    Throughout the story we know the IT was forged by Targaryen’s and mostly Targs have sat on it. We then had Robert Baratheon and then an assortment of Lannisters (some using the Baratheon name).

    We haven’t had anyone with any Stark blood. Maybe a sign?

  192. I think GRRM has thrown us a more Shakespearean storyline than Tolkien. Rheagar and Lyanna were the star crossed lovers. The vision Dany had of not reaching the throne was her own ambition curbed by Snow and the call of her children (child). She stopped reaching for the throne at the last instant. Jon’s birth killed his father (Rheagar or Ned for that matter) and hes about to marry his aunt (thankfully not his mother).

  193. AlvWaynwood,

    My trust in Miguel Sapochnik is actually what makes me more sceptical. He is an exceptional director, one of a kind, and you can’t fault episode 3 direction-wise. It’s the plot points that make this season so lackluster. Expectations are subverted for the sake of subverting expectations, not for any plot reasons. So if episode 5 is not well written story-wise, if it puts in shockers nilly willy without buildup, just so they can make sure no fan theory got it right, even Miguel Sapochnik won’t stand a chance in making it awesome. That’s what I took away from episode 3 and I pray that won’t be what I take away from season 8 as a whole.

  194. JSchmeh: According to this:

    “For most individual achievement categories, only one episode is required to be submitted; if an episode is a two-parter, both parts may be included on the submitted DVD.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primetime_Emmy_Award#Rules

    Actors and Actresses can be nominated for single episodes. Show have to have a minimum of 6 episodes for awards, but it doesn’t matter for individual awards.

    It does matter for individuals.

    As I understand it, the award you are nominated for depends on your participation level. Since 2016, actors in the supporting category have to be in more than half of the episodes. (I think you can chose lead or supporting if you are in more than half) Actors in half or fewer episodes are in the guest actor category. These removed a lot of confusion as to the guest actor. You will notice that Dianna Rigg was in guest section not supporting.

    Lena will be in the supporting category again this year. If so she must appear in at least 4 episodes. I think she already has two so she will need to be in Episode 5 and 6. I expect the confrontation between her and Jaime (and perhaps Tyrion) will be in Episode 6.

    Do not be surprised if Jon and Dneyrs , both magic characters< are no longer factors in Cersei's story when that happens.

  195. dora:
    AlvWaynwood,

    My trust in Miguel Sapochnik is actually what makes me more sceptical. He is an exceptional director, one of a kind, and you can’t fault episode 3 direction-wise. It’s the plot points that make this season so lackluster. Expectations are subverted for the sake of subverting expectations, not for any plot reasons. So if episode 5 is not well written story-wise, if it puts in shockers nilly willy without buildup, just so they can make sure no fan theory got it right, even Miguel Sapochnik won’t stand a chance in making it awesome. That’s what I took away from episode 3 and I pray that won’t be what I take away from season 8 as a whole.

    I agree that the story is showing some cracks and inconsistencies – but given the scope of this series it was always going to be hard to close up. Let us hope for the best as we wrap up.

    But the season has also been spectacular as a cinematic experience. the acting is excellent, the production values are excellent. I am enjoying the journey. That knighting ceremony was one for the ages.

    One reason that many people are upset because they spent 2 years building their own fantasy with their friends. They are now surprised that the story and characters that they made up are nowhere to be seen.

    For example, Jon was never to be understood as the all-conquering hero. His job was to raise the alarm about the AOTD and he did that spectacularly. Daenerys was never to be understood as a wonderful future queen – she and Cersei have always been very similar.

    I focus on Jaime. He has just taken off from the love of his life – literally took off in the middle of the night and made her cry. I am just waiting to see how it works out. If this if his story then I will accept it as how the character evolves – he could not embrace happiness. I will not enjoy in the sense that I am happy for him but I will enjoy it as a story of the character that I found fascinating.

    (I am still hoping for the best though! Live Jaime, live!)

  196. Inga:
    Mango,

    Tell me how can a great council oust Cersei? She would just stand in her balcony, sip wine, and smirk. Or sit on the IT and sip wine and smirk. Until she dies, she won’t step aside; until she dies, she will be looking for ways to kill everyone and reestablish control. So, no, there’s no peaceful resolution for this conflict.
    There wasn’t since “You win or you die”.

    Oh…both Cersei and Daenerys would need to be killed or imprisoned. Black cells for both. They may like chatting – maybe put them together in the same cell?

    One-handed Jaime and perhaps Arya is heading toward Cersei. Euron may decide to off Cersei.
    For Daenerys, we have Varys, Jon, Grey Worm, Tyrion close enough to tackle/kill her and I do not know if Arya will get close.

    Then we can do the Great Council.

  197. Ghostgirl:
    One thing I have noticed is that we see the Houses Targaryen, Lannister, Baratheon and Stark on the main sigil at the end of the credits. Suggesting, of course, the four main houses of Westeros.

    Throughout the story we know the IT was forged by Targaryen’s and mostly Targs have sat on it. We then had Robert Baratheon and then an assortment of Lannisters (some using the Baratheon name).

    We haven’t had anyone with any Stark blood. Maybe a sign?

    Maybe this is why she’s not returning to WF….

    https://i.imgur.com/Wk6lyQ7.jpg

  198. Mango,

    You see Jon and Dany dying next episode yet see Cersei continuing to episode 6?

    I wouldn’t say that ASOIAF is going to become Cersei’s story in its closing act and I honestly don’t see Jon and Dany both dying in episode 5 before Cersei is taken out in 6, by whom, Jaime? In the books, Jaime and Cersei are not main characters. They are secondary to Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran (GRRM’s big 5). The conclusion to this story must involve them. That’s not to say we won’t lose one next episode (my money would be on Jon or Dany, but not both), but I doubt that Jon and Dany are going to have time to resolve the conflict that has arisen between them over the enormous, story-changing reveal of Jon’s heritage. It won’t have had any impact on ASOIAF if both of them die before Cersei.

  199. Mango: I agree that the story is showing some cracks and inconsistencies – but given the scope of this series it was always going to be hard to close up.Let us hope for the best as we wrap up.

    But the season has also been spectacular as a cinematic experience. the acting is excellent, the production values are excellent. I am enjoying the journey. That knighting ceremony was one for the ages.

    One reason that many people are upset because they spent 2 years building their own fantasy with their friends. They are now surprised that the story and characters that they made up are nowhere to be seen.

    For example, Jon was never to be understood as the all-conquering hero. His job was to raise the alarm about the AOTD and he did that spectacularly.Daenerys was never to be understood as a wonderful future queen – she and Cersei have always been very similar.

    I focus on Jaime. He has just taken off from the love of his life – literally took off in the middle of the night and made her cry. I am just waiting to see how it works out. If this if his story then I will accept it as how the character evolves – he could not embrace happiness.I will not enjoy in the sense that I am happy for him but I will enjoy it as a story of the character that I found fascinating.

    (I am still hoping for the best though! Live Jaime, live!)

    I think Jon’s job may be more important than just raising the alarm.

    He was raised from the dead.
    He is a “hidden king”
    He is Ice and Fire

    That’s not to say that he is going to live, or be king, or go north. I actually feel pretty bleak about his chances of survival. I just wanted to say that he is much more than an early-warning alarm system. The lord of light brought him back for a purpose. I don’t think we’ve seen that purpose yet. If it was simply to raise the alarm, couldn’t the Lord of light had summoned someone else for the job? Spoken to someone through the flames? He brought back the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen (Fire) and Lyanna Stark (ice) for a reason, an important one, one we haven’t seen conclude yet.

  200. Ser Pounce,

    Sopranos did have a brilliant ending (for Tony – and probably Carm and AJ but not Meadow), but I’d be furious if they pulled a “cut to black” ending for GoT.

    Would rather they go for a Six Feet Under ending but that won’t happen either…

    The only possible ending is Arya heading west of Westeros with whatever “survivors” are left, fleeing the destruction wrought by the “dragonlords.”

    Though I’d like to see Gendry sit the throne.

  201. Che:
    Mango,

    You see Jon and Dany dying next episode yet see Cersei continuing to episode 6?

    I wouldn’t say that ASOIAF is going to become Cersei’s story in its closing act and I honestly don’t see Jon and Dany both dying in episode 5 before Cersei is taken out in 6, by whom, Jaime? In the books, Jaime and Cersei are not main characters. They are secondary to Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran (GRRM’s big 5). The conclusion to this story must involve them. That’s not to say we won’t lose one next episode (my money would be on Jon or Dany, but not both), but I doubt that Jon and Dany are going to have time to resolve the conflict that has arisen between them over the enormous, story-changing reveal of Jon’s heritage. It won’t have had any impact on ASOIAF if both of them die before Cersei.

    I do not know how the story ends. And I will not guess when/if undead Jon and Daenerys die/exit. I am only saying that I think Lena needs two more episodes to be in the supporting category.

    Books? Which books? As we do not know how the books end, it is unclear who are the characters that will be around for the final pages of the story. GRRM has twisted and turned – I am not sure we can project from where the books are now to saying that they will not end with X or Y as the final characters. the best guide is the show and we have 10 days more with that.

  202. Grayven Reyne:
    JSchmeh,

    It wasn’t impossible.Jon petted CGI Ghost after the Craster’s Keep fight.

    5:29 of this video:

    Someone else mentioned that above. As I said to them, I stand corrected. You can tell they were filmed separately and he never touched him, but they pulled it off with angles.

  203. Che: I think Jon’s job may be more important than just raising the alarm.

    He was raised from the dead.
    He is a “hidden king”
    He is Ice and Fire

    That’s not to say that he is going to live, or be king, or go north. I actually feel pretty bleak about his chances of survival. I just wanted to say that he is much more than an early-warning alarm system. The lord of light brought him back for a purpose. I don’t think we’ve seen that purpose yet. If it was simply to raise the alarm, couldn’t the Lord of light had summoned someone else for the job? Spoken to someone through the flames? He brought back the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen (Fire) and Lyanna Stark (ice) for a reason, an important one, one we haven’t seen conclude yet.

    He is undead.

    At the moment, the Targaryen line is ended. Daenerys can take the throne by conquest and give it to undead Jon if she wants. That is his best bet.

    His final purpose may be to end Daenerys and/or to rule as an undead king. Who knows?

  204. Ser Whatever,

    I don’t think Cersei is pregnant either.

    If Gilly is “pregnant but not showing” when they leave the Citadel is 7×05, then visibly and palpably pregnant when heavily clothed in 8×05, how is Cersei, who declares her pregnancy to Jaime in 7×06 but hinted at it earlier, not showing when naked with her lover?

    She isn’t. But someone else may be on her behalf.

    She’s trying to thwart the wood’s witch’s prophecy of her only having three children who all die.

  205. Mango,

    I was referring to this part of your post when you were saying Cersei’s story would end in episode 6:

    “Do not be surprised if Jon and Dneyrs , both magic characters< are no longer factors in Cersei's story when that happens.”

    It makes it sound like you believe that Cersei’s story conclusion will eclipse the conclusion of Jon and Dany and that they will both die before her, taking their rather important, story-altering, conflict with them.

    No one can say how the books will end, only George, and he’s not telling (unfortunately!), but seeing as his initial outline was the story of those big 5 characters, it would be pretty odd if they weren’t involved in the conclusion of the story. Not all of them, but you’d imagine most. That was the point I was trying to make. I probably didn’t word it very well. I hate using my phone to post on here!

  206. Mango,

    I would classify Jon as resurrected rather than undead. He has certainly been behaving as a resurrected “alive” human, rather than an undead shell of a human. Beric said he lost part of himself each time he came back, but we haven’t seen that happen with Jon. We don’t know how he comes back in the books – maybe he wargs into Ghost which preserves his soul/mind (his last word in the books as he lies dying is “Ghost.”), which might make him different to Beric. Who knows. He may be exactly the same and be destined to serve his purpose and then die like Beric was.

    They sure are treating them differently though in this show (foreshadowing Jon’s children, not showing him lose himself after returning etc.).

    I don’t know if his destiny is to sit on the throne (as a Jon fan, I think he’d do a good job, but I doubt it would bring him any joy and I do just want him to live), but I wouldn’t put to much stock in Dany’s infertility, Jon’s undeadness or anything else along that line of thinking because this is a fantasy show after all and mental things have happened and will continue to happen.

    I don’t believe this story is going the route others feel it is – the extinction of magic at the end of the story. That’s what LOTR did. I don’t think GRRM is writing the same type of story. There is also magic in this world that we won’t see concluded beyond the NK and the dragons – the Lord of Light, warging, greensight, changing faces (Arya isn’t the only one who can do this) etc. They don’t have time to wrap them all up, so I disagree that we will see main magical elements of the story wiped out just for the fact that they are magic.

  207. Che,

    I have no idea who will be standing at the end of the story. They may all be dead except for Bran smiling into the distance – then he gets up and breaks into a dance.

    I pay attention to the unfinished book. The show is an adaptation of an unfinished story, it is not exactly like the book. I also do not worry too much about the story’s original outline, things change as stories evolve. Further, being in the outline as the 5 does not mean the five live to the end of the story.

    I pay also attention to the casting – where were the most experienced actors hired to play which characters. In LOTR, you did not have to ask about the mains when they hired Elijah Wood as Frodo and Ian as Gandalf – even if you did not read the book you can see that. But you also saw these two characters exit on a boat to never-never land at the end.

    I also pay attention to the names that get top billing every Sunday night. None of the top three are magic characters. They are the political characters in a series that seems to be focused on the political end of the story.

    So I am open to all endings even with 10 days to go!

  208. Che:
    Mango,

    I would classify Jon as resurrected rather than undead. He has certainly been behaving as a resurrected “alive” human, rather than an undead shell of a human. Beric said he lost part of himself each time he came back, but we haven’t seen that happen with Jon. We don’t know how he comes back in the books – maybe he wargs into Ghost which preserves his soul/mind (his last word in the books as he lies dying is “Ghost.”), which might make him different to Beric. Who knows. He may be exactly the same and be destined to serve his purpose and then die like Beric was.

    They sure are treating them differently though in this show (foreshadowing Jon’s children, not showing him lose himself after returning etc.).

    I don’t know if his destiny is to sit on the throne (as a Jon fan, I think he’d do a good job, but I doubt it would bring him any joy and I do just want him to live), but I wouldn’t put to much stock in Dany’s infertility, Jon’s undeadness or anything else along that line of thinking because this is a fantasy show after all and mental things have happened and will continue to happen.

    I don’t believe this story is going the route others feel it is – the extinction of magic at the end of the story. That’s what LOTR did. I don’t think GRRM is writing the same type of story. There is also magic in this world that we won’t see concluded beyond the NK and the dragons – the Lord of Light, warging, greensight, changing faces (Arya isn’t the only one who can do this) etc. They don’t have time to wrap them all up, so I disagree that we will see main magical elements of the story wiped out just for the fact that they are magic.

    You may be right – the magic may remain in the story.

    GRRM has not done everything in the same way as Tolkien. This may be an important difference.

  209. Che,

    Maybe Cersei’s storyline would have been better to write. I am sorry if I was unclear.

    This story is the sum of the storylines of many many characters.

    I tend to watch it as “the story of Jaime Lannister” by choice. So his storyline plus how other storylines relate to his storyline.

  210. Mango: It does matter for individuals.

    As I understand it, the award you are nominated for depends on your participation level.Since 2016, actors in the supporting category have to be in more than half of the episodes. (I think you can chose lead or supporting if you are in more than half)Actors in half or fewer episodes are in the guest actor category. These removed a lot of confusion as to the guest actor. You will notice that Dianna Rigg was in guest section not supporting.

    Lena will be in the supporting category again this year. If so she must appear in at least 4 episodes. I think she already has two so she will need to be in Episode 5 and 6. I expect the confrontation between her and Jaime (and perhaps Tyrion) will be in Episode 6.

    Do not be surprised if Jon and Dneyrs , both magic characters< are no longer factors in Cersei’s story when that happens.

    As I understand it and from everything I could find, you are close. There used to be a problem with actors submitting themselves in the guest actor category even if they appeared in every episode. The thinking being, it would be easier to get the win.

    So in 2015, they made a rule that to be a guest actor, you had to appear in half or fewer episodes. They set no rules for lead or supporting. So as I read it, you can be in half the episodes (which Lena will be after this one) and still nominate yourself for supporting or lead.

    Even if she had to appear in more than half the episodes for lead or supporting actress, I really hope they wouldnt make story decisions based on emmy award rules.

  211. Mango,

    So, your solution to the problem is sending an assassin? The problem is that Arya didn’t volunteer during the war council meeting, and Jon doesn’t know about her skills. So, how can Jon or anyone else count on them? It’s like counting on Cersei dying due to a sudden miscarriage.

    Therefore, the issue still remains: if Jon is supposed to be such a good ruler, how can he rule out Cersei’s problem, without turning KL into a bloodbath? Storming the city without a dragon is even worse, than storming the city with a dragon. And blockage is not an option at all, because: 1) he has no men for that; and 2) blockade is the worst possible scenario for the smallfolk.

  212. JSchmeh,

    No, I do not think the story is built around any Emmy award plan. Nope. I was simply guessing how many more episodes could include Lena. She is put up for supporting not guest where she would probably have an excellent chance after not winning in supporting for so long.

    D&D are directing Episode 6 themselves – I am pretty sure they will have Lena. I am sure it will have big drama and that means Lena! And also likely Peter and NCW.

  213. Che,

    I think the difference between Jon and Beric is blood. Jon is actually, now I’ve thought about it, the offspring of two magical bloodlines. The blood of the First Men and the blood of Old Valyria. Maybe the magic in his ‘fire’ blood meant that he came back more whole than Beric? I do also wonder if his ‘death’ was a convenient way to get him out of Night’s Watch vows. He would probably have stayed at Castle Black and wouldn’t have had the influence to gather everyone together.

    We know that Jon certainly has a blood supply though!

  214. Inga,

    I was not getting into a discussion of Jon and so on. Or whatever is the question.

    I simply wanted to respond on how you get a Great Council – by getting rid of the two witches.

  215. Mango,

    If we look at the source of the biggest drama that is left (certainly not the only drama though), it’s surrounding Jon and Dany and their players: Tyrion, Varys, Davos, Arya and Sansa. The issue that Jon’s heritage causes with who is now the legitimate heir to the Targaryen throne and the issues surrounding the high treason in the making seem like they pack a much more powerful punch that pulls in a lot more people.

  216. Ghostgirl,

    Yeah, I have felt that too in the past, that to get him out of the night’s watch, he had to die.

    The way he is behaving and the way the show has treated his resurrection, is just so different to Beric’s returns.

  217. Che,

    I’m not sure we should try and glean too much from George’s original outline. Originally there was to be a love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and Arya. Obviously that never happened and in fact we never got a true love triangle between anyone.

    If we want to try and figure out who the main characters are at this point, there are two ways to look at it (neither of which is perfect in my mind).

    Actor pay – 5 actors are paid more than anyone else. Kit, Lena, Nikolai, Peter and Emilia. Estimates vary on how much they make per episode. I’ve seen between $500,000 and $1.2 million. Sophie, Maize and Issac are below them. Estimates are in the $150,000 and up range.

    Screen time – As of the end of season 7, Kit and Peter are way out in front at 547 and 533 minutes, respectively. Emilia and Lena are next at 401 and 392 minutes. Followed by Sophie (361), Maise (330) and Nikolai (307). Issac isn’t even in the top 10.

    My point is, that until it is over, I’m not sure if we can say who the main characters of this story are.

  218. Che:
    Mango,

    If we look at the source of the biggest drama that is left (certainly not the only drama though), it’s surrounding Jon and Dany and their players: Tyrion, Varys, Davos, Arya and Sansa. The issue that Jon’s heritage causes with who is now the legitimate heir to the Targaryen throne and the issues surrounding the high treason in the making seem like they pack a much more powerful punch that pulls in a lot more people.

    I suppose.

    But the talent available is stacked by using NCW, Peter and Lena. I do not think that is just because of my personal preferences. These are the top billed actors for a reason.

    For me Episode 1 was good with the characters you listed – but the acting in GOT elevates the moment you get Tyrion and Jaime together. Their experience shows in how they practice their craft.

    Sam was good in Epi 1 as well but just look at the moment Jaime turned and looked at Bran. NCW did not need to say a word.

  219. How about this for an ending?

    Jon ends up being pushed towards the throne he doesn’t want. Nobody can convince him to stay, he just wants peace and to do something selfish for once.

    The doors open and Ghost trots in. (Why they just let a direwolf into the throne room remains unanswered.) Ghost blanks Jon and purposefully strides towards the throne.

    Sits down beside the throne and gives Jon a look that says, ‘Sit your ass down’. Jon meekely goes to sit on the throne.

    Jon turns to Ghost, ‘This is revenge because I didn’t pet you, isn’t it?’ Ghost looks at Jon with a satisfied smirk.

    Fade to black.

  220. JSchmeh:
    Che,

    I’m not sure we should try and glean too much from George’s original outline. Originally there was to be a love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and Arya. Obviously that never happened and in fact we never got a true love triangle between anyone.

    If we want to try and figure out who the main characters are at this point, there are two ways to look at it (neither of which is perfect in my mind).

    Actor pay – 5 actors are paid more than anyone else. Kit, Lena, Nikolai, Peter and Emilia. Estimates vary on how much they make per episode. I’ve seen between $500,000 and $1.2 million. Sophie, Maize and Issac are below them. Estimates are in the $150,000 and up range.

    Screen time – As of the end of season 7, Kit and Peter are way out in front at 547 and 533 minutes, respectively. Emilia and Lena are next at 401 and 392 minutes. Followed by Sophie (361), Maise (330) and Nikolai (307). Issac isn’t even in the top 10.

    My point is, that until it is over, I’m not sure if we can say who the main characters of this story are.

    Lots to agree with here.

  221. Inga:
    Mango,

    And the Great Council solves all the problems and everyone lives happily ever after? LOL .

    I am not sure what this is about.

    You asked a question about the Council and I answered already.

    I do not remember saying anything about future happiness or solving all the problems.

  222. dora:
    AlvWaynwood,

    My trust in Miguel Sapochnik is actually what makes me more sceptical. He is an exceptional director, one of a kind, and you can’t fault episode 3 direction-wise. It’s the plot points that make this season so lackluster. Expectations are subverted for the sake of subverting expectations, not for any plot reasons. So if episode 5 is not well written story-wise, if it puts in shockers nilly willy without buildup, just so they can make sure no fan theory got it right, even Miguel Sapochnik won’t stand a chance in making it awesome. That’s what I took away from episode 3 and I pray that won’t be what I take away from season 8 as a whole.

    D&D can write great, character-driven scenes outside book material. Think of the Cersei/Bobby B marriage talk scene in S1 or Arya/Tywin scenes in S2.

    However, I share your concern for

    Expectations are subverted for the sake of subverting expectations

    and also going for Hollywood-style suprise GOTCHA moments (see: Littlefinger’s execution; super-Arya leaping out of nowhere).

    Some people like them, nothing wrong with that. I just prefer the more sustained suspense way. You kind of know where this might be going, you see the pieces falling into place though you’re not quite sure how it will turn out so you’re more afraid, more invested in the character as you see him/her doing their stuff.

    Take the super-Arya/NK GOTCHA moment. I have absolutely no gripes about Arya delivering the final blow, it fits quite nicely thematically. (And before anybody brings up book prophecies: prophecies aren’t as big in the show as they are in the books, and even GRRM in his writing warns the readers against trusting prophecies and/or taking them too literally. They might not mean what people – GRRM universe and our world – think they mean.) I just don’t like how it was done. As soon as Mel said “… and blue eyes” I kinda knew where it was going, Arya killing the NK. Mel making that Syrio callback just reinforced my initial thought. And then Arya just disappears for the next 30 minutes or so of the episode. Until BOOM! Surprise! GOTCHA!

    I would’ve felt a lot more anxiety, a lot more fear, a lot more tension, been a lot more invested, if I’d seen Arya stealthily making her way, not sure if she’ll succeed.

    But instead we got a lot more of, TBH, boring shots of our favourites hacking and slashing, hacking and slashing at the wights. I get it, it’s ice zombie apocalypse, it’s awful. But no real character moments, or even decent fight coreagraphy. Just hacking and slashing. Gets boring after a while.

    The Dany and Jon and dragon stuff was OK, I liked Jon’s desperate fight to get to Bran/NK on time and I shared his frustration, yelling at undead Viserion. Theon’s last stand was beautiful. Awful beautiful.

    And then it’s all cheapened by super-Arya jumping out of nowhere to kill the NK in a surprise GOTCHA moment. And it wasn’t even a surprise to me. So I felt a bit meh about what D&D obviously wanted to be the triumphant moment, the crowning glory moment. So it is a problem, for me, in their writing style.

    And I’m afraid we’re in for some more surprise GOTCHA moments. Think back to S7 and the mess that was the WF storyline, culminating in the execution of LF. Someone here said it’s like D&D had decided on the surprise GOTCHA moment first and then wrote backwards to get to that moment. We were not shown character interactions in full, just the beginning, to “preserve the surprise”.

    And what have we now? The Godswood scene, but we’re cut away from it before Bran tells Sansa and Arya the truth. Next we see Arya riding for KL, apparently inexplicably saying she’s not planning to come back, even though in her previous scene she was all about family, family, family, sticking together etc. And Sansa’s next scene, clearly struggling internally but finally deciding to spill the beans to Tyrion.

    What we were not shown was Sansa’s and Arya’s reactions to Jon’s news. Maybe that’s to “preserve the secret” for that GOTCHA surprise moment. I don’t know what that could be, but I can easily imagine Sansa and Arya going like:

    Sansa: So you’re this super ninja assassin who can change faces. Couldn’t you take out Cersei?
    Arya: No probs, sis… And wouldn’t Jon be a great king?

    Something along those lines would explain Arya’s riding south and apparently not expecting to come back.

    So Sansa and Arya may have concoted a plan. That is no proof the plan will work out, mind you. Or not work out the way they expected. Too many moving parts, even if Sansa is super smart.

    Anyway, I think D&D in their writing are going for some more surprise GOTCHA moments they seem so enarmoured with. It might work for some fans but I personally would feel a bit… short changed..?

    Both GRRM and D&D have said the ending will be the same for the main characters, they’ll just get there through different paths (in the first book Jon told Arya different roads lead to the same castle…)

    I might not like some of D&D’s creative choices, but this show, overall, has been amazing. The acting, the cinematography, the practical and CGI effects, the sets and set dressings (who can forget Tormund’s huge drinking horn… or the Starkbuck’s cup 😀 ), the costumes, the make-up, prosthetics, the hair, everything. We should salute all the creative and craft people who have poured so much of their skill and passion into this show. That’s why I think the (co-ordinated) mob giving these episodes 1/10 ratings because their favourite fan theories bit the dust is so unfair.

  223. Mango,

    I think that this is surely a subjective choice?

    I think that at this point, there is very little difference between the acting capabilities of the lead cast members and it comes down to preference. I don’t get much out of Tyrion and Jaime together truthfully. To me, the scene that grabbed me emotionally and made me think “wow; that’s good acting”, was Jon’s speech at the funeral and Dany’s rage when she was on Drogon and when Missandei was killed. It is so subjective.

    By top billing, do you mean whose names appear first in the credits? Sorry, I have heard the term, but I don’t know quite what it refers to.

  224. JSchmeh,

    I agree, there is no sure way to say who is or isn’t a main character at this point.

    However, I didn’t explain myself very well. It goes beyond GRRM’s initial outline. In a game of thrones, the only surviving POV characters are Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa and Arya. Jaime doesn’t feature till book three and Cersei doesn’t until book 4. Based on this, I would say they are main characters.

    The show has made Cersei the end-game villain. Who knows for certain, but it’s unlikely to play out that way in the books with how things stand at the end of book 5. So maybe in the show, Cersei is of more importance.

    It feels like the title of the book series is important though. A song of ice and fire: That would suggest that Dany and Jon’s stories become the driving force in the book series. Perhaps not so in the show, which is more focused on the game of thrones.

    Certainly GRRM has told Alan Taylor (unless he is lying) that Jon and Dany are very important to where the story was heading.

    “He said something: That it really is all about Dany and Jon. I was surprised because at the time, you know, I thought, well Robb Stark’s going to be king next, probably,” he continued. “And who knows where this story’s going? But it was absolutely clear to him that within this sprawling scale the whole story was coming down to this partnership.”

    This to me suggests that they are main characters (were they not the only ones nominated in the main characters Emmy category last year?) and their story – which may turn into conflict – might be the final closing conflict of the story.

  225. Che:
    Mango,

    I think that this is surely a subjective choice?

    I think that at this point, there is very little difference between the acting capabilities of the lead cast members and it comes down to preference. I don’t get much out of Tyrion and Jaime together truthfully. To me, the scene that grabbed me emotionally and made me think “wow; that’s good acting”, was Jon’s speech at the funeral and Dany’s rage when she was on Drogon and when Missandei was killed. It is so subjective.

    By top billing, do you mean whose names appear first in the credits? Sorry, I have heard the term, but I don’t know quite what it refers to.

    Someone in the business may be better at explaining this…but there are negotiations around the names that appear first in the opening credits and use of things such as ….”and X” being given at the end of the list of actors. There are union rules about starring vs recurring character vs guest roles. Some shows may go for an alphabetic listing but if not the order of names mean something. Top billing are the actors that are listed at the top of the cast listing for a drama.

    The order of appearance before every episode is Peter, NCW and Lena for the last few seasons. This tells us who are the senior acting staff. (It usually, but not always, also means they play the “starring” or most important characters.) Someone who has been on movie sets may tell us what else it means in their workplace. This set is a workplace with seniority etc. as well.

    People like different actors and scenes – but the listing on Peter, NCW and Lena as the top three is not a fluke.

  226. kevin1989:
    Dothraki Scum,

    Sandor in 7×07 to his brother:

    He stays very straight forward he is coming for his brother.

    Sandor actually says “You know what’s coming for you, you always known.”

    “Who” would make it personal, “what” makes it more ambiguous. Sandor? Revenge from all, or one, of those people he wronged? Karma, which is a bitch?

    He’s a reanimated corpse. How sentient is he? Does he like being this frankengregor, doing all Cersei’s bidding? Maybe he just wishes for it all to end, and welcomes his brother killing him.

  227. Mango,

    I would think it more a nod to their experience as actors in the recurring cast, rather than a list that denotes “here are our best actors in descending order”. Certainly, they have been some of the best all the way through, but the inexperienced younger actors have caught up, certainly in my point of view, which is why it really is subjective.

  228. Mango,

    I think this goes back to when they first started in that order. It may have been Season 2 or 3? We very much get used to Peter, NCW, Lena (actually from what I remember NCW and Lena have been interchangeable), Emilia and Kit. I think at first it reflected the better known actors as Emilia and Kit weren’t known when they started. As it became clear that these five were the main characters they stayed as the top 5 names.

    I think it would be somewhat jarring if they suddenly changed the name placement for season 8. I don’t know about anyone else, but when I watch the opening sequence I’m drawn to the names of who will be in the episode and I know the order. I don’t think it means that the Lannisters are the main characters just that changing it after so many seasons would be really strange. They all get paid the same but Peter, NCW and Lena would still be the original bigger names so they keep their place.

  229. talvikorppi,

    The script reads as “who’s” coming for you. I agree it sounds like “what”, but I just read the script as was nominated for the Emmy and it does say “who’s coming for you”.

  230. Miguel Sapochnik said that this is a climactic episode. I don’t see how that is the case if Cersei isn’t defeated in it.

    My Deadpool for the episode:

    Cersei
    Jaime
    Varys
    Euron
    Qyburn
    Mountainstein
    The Hound

    I’m torn on Dany. On one hand, there is no way she should die in battle. On the other hand, would they really have this “Red Wedding type event” in the final episode? The more I think about it, the more I believe that Daenerys will take the throne, but Tyrion will betray her and cause her death. I’m not sure that can happen in this episode. Or maybe it can. I have no clue.

    The only thing that I believe must happen is Cersei’s death. I’m sick of her smirking. She hasn’t been particularly interesting since she became The Queen. If she somehow causes the death of Jon or Dany, I will be unhappy.

  231. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I agree with your dead pool, but I would add Sandor to it (sadly). I think he may succeed in killing Frankengregor, but I think it may cost him his life. I also worry Brienne may follow Jaime and end up as a victim to comic book evil Cersei. Greyworm is surely also going to go out in a fiery revenge kamikaze mission?

    I think that episode 6 will involve the Hero vs Hero idea that so intrigued GRRM. It may come down to Dany vs Jon, or rather, Dany vs Jon’s cheer squad (as I doubt he will willingly go up against her – unless she proves herself to be unfit to rule in episode 5 and he feels it’s in the best interest of the realm to prevent her from being queen).

    I feel Cersei’s storyline may come to an end in episode 5 and along with her, Jaime’s (sadly) and her whole horrid entourage.

  232. Che:
    talvikorppi,

    The script reads as “who’s” coming for you. I agree it sounds like “what”, but I just read the script as was nominated for the Emmy and it does say “who’s coming for you”.

    OK, my grandstanding just bit the dust, lol! 😀

    But in the finished episode he clearly says “what”. Scripts chance, evolve. Whatever. This isn’t an important thing for me. I’ve never been on the “Cleganebowl” hypetrain. I won’t hate it if it happens, might even like it depending how it pans out. I’m just not one of those people who demand Cleganebowl “needs” to happen.

    Also, I know “bowl” is an Americanism meaning an important sporting event (comes from US college arenas being named “bowls”) but I just think of crockery.

  233. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I think we’ll lose:

    Varys
    Euron
    Mountain
    Qyburn
    Grey worm (sob)

    I don’t why but I think Cersei will live, for now.

    As for Dany, I think she will ‘win’ against Cersei against all the odds. The ‘Red Wedding’ thing makes me think a BIG character will go. I’m starting to wonder if Dany burns Sansa (not sure why she would be in KL but she needs something else to do than sit at Winterfell) and Tyrion for plotting with Jon’s parentage. Jon would never agree to this, of course. I think he might be kept out of the way but in the end he snaps. In the same way as the Red Wedding you would get BIG characters gone. I don’t think Cersei will be around for that.

    (I’m not overly happy with Jon turning on Dany but it does seem to be where this is going. Killing his ‘sister’ would do that and we know there is no love between Dany and Sansa.)

  234. Sundancer,

    Holy shit, why had I not thought of this before? The effect on the Dothraki was pretty monumental (twice). Then again… If all three dragons die, will she lose her inflammability?

    Tinfoil. I must. Stop. With the tinfoil. And keep hoping against hope that GRRM lives long enough to answer all the burning questions (no pun intended).

  235. Mango,

    It’s all about seniority. Jaime and Cersei are in no way more integral characters to the story than Jon or Dany. Kit and Emilia were unknowns at the start, so there was no way they would be placed ahead of more experienced actors with better agents. And out of respect, they never leapfrogged NCW or Lena in the opening credits. The screen time for each of their characters tells you which ones are more central to the story.

  236. talvikorppi,

    To me, putting “bowl” on the end of things to denote a match of extreme significance just makes it sound silly, but hey ho.

    I just watched that part of the episode to check, because I was curious as I had first heard “what” the first time I heard it, but then remembered hearing “who” and it does definitely sound like who to me. The subtitles say who to.

    It is a strange line… it would be weird if he was talking about himself, because for the longest time, they basically ignored each other. If Sandor was planning his revenge all along, then what gives? I wonder if he means Death as the “who” and that Death may be personified by Arya.

    I feel having a simply Clegane VS Clegane duel with the Mountain dying at the end would be ridiculous seeing as they didn’t give us Jon even fighting the NK because it’s too predictable. I’ve never wanted to see them duel; I’d love a twist.

  237. Ser Whatever,

    Welcome, Ser Whatever. You seem to fit right in here, with your reasonable takes on the show. I enjoyed your piece. Maybe not agreed with everything, but you presented it all in such a nice manner.

  238. Che,

    Ghostgirl,

    As an audience, we see the story as emerging.

    However, remember that HBO is a corporation and this is a business. They would know some of the major factors in the story from the start.

    The evolving story is not a surprise to HBO and D&D. The business team for GOT would have worked out the staff needed, their importance over the story and all those things would drive the negotiations with HBO attorneys, helped to determine certain terms in the contract including who gets top billing and so on.

    These billings would also be addressed in the contract negotiations that were done again just two/three years ago.

  239. Che:
    Mango,

    If we look at the source of the biggest drama that is left (certainly not the only drama though), it’s surrounding Jon and Dany and their players: Tyrion, Varys, Davos, Arya and Sansa. The issue that Jon’s heritage causes with who is now the legitimate heir to the Targaryen throne and the issues surrounding the high treason in the making seem like they pack a much more powerful punch that pulls in a lot more people.

    Exactly this.

    I’ve heard many possible ways the story could go on here.

    But not one that’s anywhere close to the immensely dramatic finale we’d have if there’s a massive conflict between Jon and Dany.

    I’d probably be fine with many possible endings as long as they’re done well, but I don’t see anything else that would compare to that, as well as being in line with the show’s propensity for huge dramatic events.

    It seems that many seem to think that it WON’T happen because it’s being set up and would be “too obvious”, but does that really make sense?

    When before has the show ever set up a major situation and then NOT followed through with it?

    Like GRRM himself said, it makes absolutely no sense to lay all of the groundwork and then do something entirely different just to make it unpredictable.

    If we accept that Dany snaps, we still wouldn’t know HOW that would be resolved, so it’s not like everything would suddenly become predictable.

    I don’t necessarily want her to snap and I would be fine with another direction, but come on, I think you’re fooling yourself if you don’t at least see how this is the most likely direction for the story to go in.

  240. Che,

    I haven’t had time and go and check the audio – I remember thinking at the time that it was a bit strange for Sandor to say “what” instead of “who”, but maybe that was Rory McCann’s Scottish accent coming through, or my English listening comprehension was off or whatever.

    But I’m not “needing” a Cleganebowl (crockery flying about…) because in the books and partly in the show Sandor seemed to have let go of his hatred and need for revenge. So “Cleganebowl” motivated by wish for personal revenge seems a bit off. Character regression. But if it happens in the context of fighting for the greater good, it’s only fitting that it is Sandor who takes out his evil brother. So I’m cool with it, just not hypehypehype.

    Is frankengregor even evil anymore? Does he have a will of his own to be evil? Or was that taken from him? (Not that his human free will was anything but psychopathically bad and evil, but he did have human free will.) Who controls him now? Cersei? Or Qyburn? That would make Qyburn and/or Cersei the evil ones (as if we needed any more proof that Cersei is evil and mad, haha.)

  241. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I made a note about the planning from the perspective of HBO.

    Yes, it does not mean that Peter, NCW, Lena will be alive at the end of the story. It means they are the senior actors in THIS drama as I said before.

    There are other movies that Peter will not get the top billing because his role is not important. He is not in a senior role for that particular drama.

  242. Mango,

    I have seen you mention elsewhere that they chose NCW, Peter and Lena because they’re such good actors and they would be needed now in the end game, which is why they were chosen in the first place. I’m paraphrasing; I apologise if I misunderstood your meaning.

    If that was your meaning however, I very much disagree. The difference with those actors is that they were needed for older parts. All the rest of the contenders for “main part” or “main target for endgame drama” as another way of putting it, were supposed to be young – only 14 at the oldest in the books. They needed young actors and as a result, cast actors who didn’t have a name for themselves. They saw the potential in their lead cast, even when they were so young, and it had paid off. I think relying on the belief that Lena, Peter and NCW were picked as some of the few experienced actors because they would be needed to pull of the real endgame drama is probably not reflecting what actually happened. Certainly not from GRRM’s point of view. As I mentioned earlier, Jaime doesn’t get a POV till book 3 and Cersei doesn’t until book 4. In the books they are definitely not main character territory.

  243. King in the North East,

    In contrast, I have no particular interest in any clash between Jon and Dany. I would not watch it – may be go to get snacks instead.

    So far Jon has agreed that Dany will take the throne. It is unclear why there should be a conflict. Varys may have different ideas but it is up to Jon and he does not seem to care.

    Are you expecting him to change his mind? Sansa and Sam did not get him interested and you think that Varys will do it?

  244. Anyway, I’m willing to follow the story wherever it goes but for now I’m calling it like this:

    Dany wins the war against Cercei, but goes much too far in accomplishing that goal, essentially becoming Cercei 2.0.

    I’m betting ep5 ends with her taking the Iron Throne.

    Ep6: Now the remaining characters need to decide how to deal with her, with Jon being talked into overthrowing her.

    In broad strokes, I think that’s what’s going to occur.

  245. talvikorppi,

    A good question. He certainly still has vanity/pride, which is quite an advanced emotion if he is merely a zombie pawn at Cersei’s (or Qyburn’s!) disposal. We know this because when Jaime sees him with Qyburn in season 7 when Qyburn is recruiting Varys’ former little birds, he mocks Frankengregor’s intelligence, to which the zombie mountain responds threateningly, suggesting he was offended. If he feels that, he must feel more simplistic emotions and still have some agency in place.

  246. ShameShameShame,

    Good Lord o’ Light, WHY? By his own admission Gendry can’t run a castle… and you’d like to see him run a kingdom? Daario’s probably doing better in Meereen. He at least knows enough to have told Daenerys that in order to rule a people she must know the land.

  247. Mango: Are you expecting him to change his mind?

    Basically yes. (See my above prediction)

    I hope, for your sake, that you are prepared for a lot of snack breaks….

  248. Mango: I have no particular interest in any clash between Jon and Dany. I would not watch it

    I don’t think anyone had any particular interest in seeing Ned beheaded, Robb assassinated, Shireen burned, the dragons getting killed, etc

    But here we are.

  249. Che,

    In selecting actors, young or old, there is no shortage of available personnel. And available personnel with strong resumes – they may not be famous to us – but with experience at various levels. This is the sad truth about the business. More actors than roles.

    When you pick unknowns you do so for a reason – either it does not matter or you want fresh faces. Unless HBO tells us, we do not know. But they would have kept their financial interests in mind.

  250. King in the North East: I don’t think anyone had any particular interest in seeing Ned beheaded, Robb assassinated, Shireen burned, the dragons getting killed, etc

    But here we are.

    Speak for yourself. (Except for Shireen!)

  251. Mango,

    What could make Jon change his mind about Dany?

    – She goes on a “burn them all”, “fire and blood” rampage
    – She roasts Varys (killing him without a trial in such a manner would not be something Jon is on board with)
    – Dany turns on him because she’s threatened by him
    – Dany inadvertently or purposefully kills someone he cares about because she sees them as her enemy

    Just to name a few things that might make Jon stop supporting Dany and feel that it’s in the best interests of the realm to not have her as queen. I really like Dany, but ever since season 1, when she was smiling at the idea of Khal Drogo taking the Dothraki across the sea to rape, pillage and kill the people she wanted to rule, I didn’t think she’d make a good queen.

    GRRM has spoken before about being intrigued by the Idea of Hero vs Hero. I really wouldn’t be surprised if this was the direction this story took.

    If Jon’s big reveal isn’t going to cause conflict, real meaningful conflict, and it’s not going to lead to him sitting on the throne like Aragorn uncontested (I think we all know we are not watching a show where that happens), then what was the point in including it?

  252. Che,

    I think you are right, A Song of Ice and Fire refers to Jon/Aegon and Dany. They were the only two characters that had and story separate from the rest of the group. Jon’s was when he was at the wall and in the North. Dany’s obviously was in Essos. All the other’s involved major characters. I also believe ASOIAF directly refers to Jon/Aegon, as he is a combination of both. If there has to be only one main character, thrn I think it will be him.

  253. King in the North East: Basically yes. (See my above prediction)

    I hope, for your sake, that you are prepared for a lot of snack breaks….

    I can switch the channel. I have done that on many occasions with GOT. I am not as dedicated a viewer as many here.

  254. One last thing about Jon before Sunday.

    As we get closer to the end, I’m getting a little sadder about Jon’s character.

    He was a product of love by a father obsessed with prophecy and a mother who was brave and fascinating. There was a miscommunication or lie about them that led to mass casualties and the end of the Targ monarchy. He was a prince guarded by Kingsguard even from his uncle Ned, and despite his secretive bastard upbringing and his treatment from Cat, he became the best of the them.

    Guiding and teaching Bran, insuring Ned gave his children the direwolves, and giving Arya Needle. He was even resurrected, and I’m still not entirely convinced it was Mel who did it.

    Now all the direwolves are basically gone, the NK is dead, Bran told him the truth of his parents but left him with the fallout, and Arya seems to side with Sansa.

    So all this buildup of R+L=J leads to nothing for him but grief? His lover is his aunt, the dragon he rode died, and he didn’t save anyone or accomplish anything on his own in the great war. Yes, he did bring everyone together and yes-he started Arya on her path. That comforts me somewhat.

    I just wish Bran had at least talked to him about his mother-who all the Stark children say Ned never talked about. Seriously everyone promised to talk to Jon throughout the series and all he got was this super quick chat with Sam onscreen to deal with it.

    “The next time I see you, we’ll talk about your mother. I promise.” Ned

    “We’ll talk when I get back.” Benjen

    He gave her a crown of blue roses, and all the smiles died-Rhaegar’s story

    “Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me.” Cersei

    “Needle was Jon’s smile” Arya. Arguably Jon was a big part of her keeping her identity.

    “blue rose in a wall of ice” Dany’s vision in the house of the undying is Jon-Lyanna is connected with blue roses.

    “He loved her and she loved him” Bran about Rhaegar and Lyanna

    I guess I’m more upset that the what and why of those two getting together (R+L), the story that caused Robert’s Rebellion, tortured Ned his entire life and created Jon’s most poignant desire to know who his mother was-was glossed over in favor of focusing on his claim to the throne.

    It was the biggest mystery of the series, and it still is. And Jon’s truth and all that he’s worked so hard to earn now seems to be a device meant only to upset Dany and give Sansa and Varys something to plot about.

    I can’t see that many options for him going forward in this battle. Not with Jaime and Arya and Sandor and Dany also having big dogs in this fight.
    Not to mention he doesn’t even have Ghost or Rhaegal anymore.

    It’s just frustrating that from some heavy foreshadowing, it’s looking like his best option is “diminishing” into the North ala Frodo without us truly understanding his story.

    I get that Jon was shaped to be the typical archetype of a romantic fantasy hero, and this series is all about flipping that on it’s head, but he’s suffered through too much for him not to have anything at the end. Otherwise he’s just a walking tragedy, right?

    We still have two more giant episodes. Hopefully we’ll be surprised? I’d be okay with a happier ending, just putting that out there lol

    Okay, I’ll stop. Back to our regular programming. 🙂

  255. Che:
    Mango,

    What could make Jon change his mind about Dany?

    – She goes on a “burn them all”, “fire and blood” rampage
    – She roasts Varys (killing him without a trial in such a manner would not be something Jon is on board with)
    – Dany turns on him because she’s threatened by him
    – Dany inadvertently or purposefully kills someone he cares about because she sees them as her enemy

    Just to name a few things that might make Jon stop supporting Dany and feel that it’s in the best interests of the realm to not have her as queen. I really like Dany, but ever since season 1, when she was smiling at the idea of Khal Drogo taking the Dothraki across the sea to rape, pillage and kill the people she wanted to rule, I didn’t think she’d make a good queen.

    GRRM has spoken before about being intrigued by the Idea of Hero vs Hero. I really wouldn’t be surprised if this was the direction this story took.

    If Jon’s big reveal isn’t going to cause conflict, real meaningful conflict, and it’s not going to lead to him sitting on the throne like Aragorn uncontested (I think we all know we are not watching a show where that happens), then what was the point in including it?

    I do not have an opinion on it. These are interesting ideas though.

    Jon seems so passive as the story goes at the moment.

  256. Che: – She goes on a “burn them all”, “fire and blood” rampage
    – She roasts Varys (killing him without a trial in such a manner would not be something Jon is on board with)
    – Dany turns on him because she’s threatened by him
    – Dany inadvertently or purposefully kills someone he cares about because she sees them as her enemy

    Or, potentially, all of the above.

  257. Mango: I can switch the channel. I have done that on many occasions with GOT.I am not as dedicated a viewer as many here.

    And yet you’re here?

    Not criticizing, just observing.

    Thing is, I don’t necessarily want a particular thing to happen or not happen, so it seems like I have no stakes here other than just to enjoy the story.

    That’s not to say I didn’t want to some events occur.

    I WANTED Jon to kill the night king. That didn’t happen, I accepted it, I moved on.
    I WANTED to see Ice Spiders. I didn’t, I accepted it, I moved on.
    I WANTED to see the army of the dead in KL. I won’t, I accepted it, I moved on.

    You get the idea.

    It’s just difficult for me to imagine I’d stop watching because the show doesn’t go in the direction I would have liked it to go.

  258. King in the North East: And yet you’re here?

    Not criticizing, just observing.

    Thing is, I don’t want any particular thing to happen or not happen, so it seems like I have no stakes here other than just go enjoy the story.

    I WANTED Jon to kill the night king. That didn’t happen, I accepted it, I moved on.
    I WANTED to see Ice Spiders. I didn’t, I accepted it, I moved on.
    I WANTED to see the army of the dead in KL. I won’t, I accepted it, I moved on.

    You get the idea.

    It’s just difficult for me to imagine I’d stop watching because the show doesn’t go in the direction I would have liked it to go.

    I can stop watching whenever needed. I will often miss episodes if something in my real life demands it – I catch up if I can but usually by reading the recap in the newspaper. It is just a TV series. There is nothing at stake.

    I enjoy the story of Jaime Lannister and Peter Dinklage is one of my favorite actors. So I follow especially for that. Over the years, I have enjoyed Tywin, Roose, Oleanna, Joffy, Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Davos among others. I see a lot of live theatre but do not watch a lot of TV.

    If I stop it is not that I am angry, it is just that given one life, I may move to other things. I will follow the end via recaps in the paper and reviews. Or here.

  259. Che:
    Mango,

    So you do feel that the biggest endgame drama will involve NCW, Lena and Peter?

    For me personally.

    For the story, I have no idea. Maybe Hot Pie and Arya will duke it out at the Inn.

  260. Mango: I can stop watching whenever needed. I will often miss episodes if something in my real life demands it – I catch up if I can but usually by reading the recap in the newspaper. It is just a TV series.There is nothing at stake.

    I enjoy the story of Jaime Lannister and Peter Dinklage is one of my favorite actors. So I follow especially for that. Over the years, I have enjoyed Tywin, Roose, Oleanna, Joffy, Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Davos among others. I see a lot of live theatre but do not watch alot of TV.

    That makes you a pretty interesting type of fan.

    Fair enough. I hope the stories you’re most invested in end satisfactorily for you then.

  261. RG,

    I thought it was obvious that Jon fid have a conversation with Bran about his parents. In 8×01, Sam just tells him the basics. In 8×02,when he tells Dany, he tells her that they were in love and were married. Sam never mentioned any of that. We didn’t get to see the conversation, but it obviously happened.

  262. talvikorppi,

    I hate the Cleganebowl hype, and I’ll be sorely disappointed if that’s how the Hound—my favorite secondary character—meets his end. I don’t think it’s too “book purist” to opine that he has undergone some profound experiences, from slowly but surely letting go of his nihilism vis-à-vis his thorny but humanizing relationships with both Stark sisters, to his experiences with the Hippie Faithful, to his journey North with the Brotherhood, to participating in the battles against the AotD. To have undergone all of that only to come back right back to “my brother almost killed me when I was six and the only thing that’ll make me happy in life is to take him out” seems awfully regressive.

    Then again, whenever I’m feeling like a prickly book purist I remember that one of book!Hound’s lines was given to show!Daario: “The sweetest things in life are killing and fucking” (or words to that effect). Given that show!Hound has been completely desexualized, that would at least partly explain why D&D might believe he has nothing else to live for but to take out the FrankenMountain.

    I can also hope for some final, human moment of another sort: In Cersei’s and Qyburn’s absence unGregor is incapable of having a coherent thought, and Sandor actually takes pity on him and asks Arya to grant him mercy. The fact that it would be wholly undeserved would humanize both Sandor and Arya, given how close both have come to permanently crossing over to the dark side.

    /end rant

  263. King in the North East,

    I agree that Jon & Dany conflict needs resotution (and I would place it into Ep 6), but how to say… I can imagine Dany burning King’s Landing, but if Jon or Tyrion are going to make turn against her because of that, wouldn’t that be hipocritical? Both Jon and Tyrion killed thousands using everything they had for that including fire. Turning them into fainting damsels just doesn’t seem ringht, especially considering that neither of them was able to come up with a reasonable aternative (at least so far).

    And there’s also “Truth” by Ramin Djawadi: to me it sounds more like triuphant love, than a tragic one. So, I guess hope dies the last:)

  264. King in the North East:

    I WANTED to see Ice Spiders. I didn’t, I accepted it, I moved on.

    I actually really like the idea that we have seen the ice spiders in the form of those wights skittering up walls. I feel like that is a very realistic take on folklore and the how truths becomes legends.

  265. King in the North East,

    Interesting – if the NK hadn’t shown up at the battle of Winterfell, Ep. 3 could be a Robb Stark strategy. A minor force of WW and wights to let Jon/Dany think they won, then wait for everyone to assemble at KL where the NK and actual AOTD would then attack.
  266. I also have an Arya theory.

    I think they’re purposefully setting it up for us to ‘forget’ about her faces trick. The last time we’ve seen her use it was in the season 7 premiere.

    So perhaps at some point we’ll see two major characters in a scene, only for one of them to take off their face and reveal that it’s Arya and that she killed the character whose face she’s wearing.

  267. Inga,

    I don’t recall Jon or Tyrion ever killing civilians? Neither did they ever enjoy killing. They were conflicted even if they had no choice but to kill.

    Nearly 8 full seasons and I’ve yet to see any hint of Daenerys regretting a kill.

    If she starts killing civilians, they’re right to want her gone.

    I don’t really see the hypocrisy here?

  268. I’m just wondering if anyone else thought that Bran and Tyrion’s off screen conversation after the strategy meeting was significant. It seems odd that the scene was added, but nothing came out of it. I’ve always felt that Tyrion had Targaryen blood in him, especially because of how he is physically described in the books.

  269. I think we’re heading for a conclusion where, for the first time in the show, there will be a just, honorable ruler who cares about the population.

    Mad King: “burn them all”
    Robert Baratheon: lazy, didn’t care, ordered children murdered
    Joffrey Baratheon: cruel, didn’t care, killed civilians
    Tommen Baratheon: kind, cared, but weak and naive (with proper guidance he could have been great)
    Cercei Baratheon: cruel, doesn’t care, killed civilians

    Coming up:

    Daenerys Targaryen: good intentions, prone to revenge, entitled, (killing civilians/innocents?)
    Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen: honorable, cares, strong, honest

    How’s that for an ending? A just ruler with good advisors.

  270. talvikorppi,

    Couldn’t agree more with the whole post about those increasingly numerous GOTCHA! moments. Less refined somehow. Reminds me of Alfred Hitchcock explaining suspense: if you see two people chatting at a café table and a bomb goes off under the table, you’re shocked for a few seconds. Now if you watch the same scene KNOWING there’s a bomb under the table that could go off at any time, you’re on tenterhooks for the whole sequence. The odd big shock is great, but sustained suspense is more rewarding for me.
    As in the example of Arya surprise-killing the NK, while I’m also 100% pleased she did it, it fell a bit flat at the time I saw it. It’s only later that I thought how it all made sense, her training making her the perfect person for the job. But I would have loved to see cutaways of her making her way to the NK, interspersed with all the fighting, with maybe voices overlaid, Syrio saying “Not Today”, Mel’s prophecy, Jaquen teaching her the Valar Morghulis words, even her own voice telling Tywin “Anyone can be killed”. That would have given such weight to it, years of training and tough knocks preparing her for this moment.

    And thanks for your welcome 🙂 I’m liking the mostly civilised exchange of views here on the Wall!

  271. Che,

    How unlucky in love can one guy be, if this is the case?

    He’s loved 2 women in his life.
    One was a Wildling he couldn’t kill, fell in love with and was forced to betray due to his NW vows and “protecting the realm”

    The other was a woman he fell in love with, bent the knee to, found out he was related to by blood and…was forced to betray? Worse?

    Also, on that last option you mentioned. They’ve done a lot in the last two seasons to set up Jon’s protecting Sansa despite her issues trusting him, and Dany’s issues with Sansa. If Dany accused Sansa of treason…

    Crap, it’s going to be about Sansa isn’t it?
    lol

  272. Ok I just saw the funniest image, and can’t figure out how to put it on here, but basically its a pic of the iron throne with the steps and captioned ‘the reason why Bran will not sit on the Iron Throne. Youre welcomed.

  273. Last week’s Chekhov’s gun moment was when Varys mentioned that the new prince of Dorne came out in support of Dany . . .

  274. Black Raven: Nice one – That’s the best speculative comment I’ve seen so far

    That way, they only have to pay one admission to the War of the Five Kings Theme Park. 😉

  275. Che,

    What could make Jon change his mind about Dany?
    Let’s go through the points.

    – She goes on a “burn them all”, “fire and blood” rampage
    Jon had plenty of such impulses himself: he beated Ramsay with a shield and gave Sansa his blessing to feed him to the dogs. Imagin, if he had a dragon.

    – She roasts Varys (killing him without a trial in such a manner would not be something Jon is on board with)
    I have a feeling that Jon might behead Varys himself. Varys is not only talking treason, he’s planning murder of Jon’s aunt who’s also the woman he loves. One way or another, IMO Jon will be more concerned about Sansa’s treason and Varys is nothing dear to him.

    – Dany turns on him because she’s threatened by him
    Jon can handle that: Ygritte shot him with three arrows. In general, Jon has been deeling with female hysterya for his entire life, and he knows how to pat angry dragons.

    – Dany inadvertently or purposefully kills someone he cares about because she sees them as her enemy
    Arya is too sneaky, Sansa is too far away. Sure, Sansa would be the prime candidate to provoke Dany’s wrath, but Jon’s wrath might be even more dreadful. To him Sansa has always been that self-entitled and obusive sister; he saught her recognition and he looked after her out of duty, but she has always been annoying as hell. And now Jon has another close blood relative who also needs looking after and who gave him much more respect and recognition and backup than Sansa ever did. So, if Sansa forces Jon to choose (and she does), the choice is obviuos: both his duty and his heart lies with aunt, even if he still has to find a way how to live with that dragon-lady. And, although I don’t think that Jon could make himself harm Sansa physically, he might see punishing her as his personal duty.

    So, there’s only one person who could change Jon’s mind about claiming the throne: it’s Dany herself. And I still believe that she might do it: she has been described as “just”, although her justice has always been rather merciless. And giving Jon his birthright would be just, although merciless to Dany herself. It looks like she’s already changing her self-identification from been born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, to been deistined to fight tyrany. So, who knows, maybe, she has already decided to oust Cersei in order to make way for Jon rather than to sit the throne herself?

  276. talvikorppi,

    Wolfish,

    I agree. At this point, I am not interested in seeing a contrived match-up between the two. But if in fighting they happen to be in the same area, then it can work. As you all have pointed out, Gregor probably does not have any free will left. He is told things like “kill the blonde one” or whatever simple order comes from Cersei (and I presume Qyburn also). Does he even recognize Sandor as his brother? Sandor seems to think so, but I don’t know.

    Along the lines of what you suggest Wolfish, maybe Gregor has just an ounce of free will left to ask Sandor and Arya to give him mercy to let him finally die. (Just what is the quality of Gregor’s life like now anyways?) And they do it out of compassion, not anything else, the gift. Now that is something I would like to see. At least it can be in my own “personal version” of how GOT wraps up!

    On the topic of mis-hearing things or not…I posted somewhere that in the Godswood scene in The Last of the Starks that Arya said she did not need ANY allies but on second listening (and seeing a friendly correcting post somewhere) she actually says MANY allies. On the WHAT’S vs WHO question, I heard WHAT’S also, but it has been a while since I watched that scene. And it could be the accent, every time I hear the Jenny of Old Stones song I swear the line is “Jenny she danced with her GOATS!” I dunno, maybe all that loud music in my youth has taking a toll!

  277. Apollo:

    Problem is, even with a measured and targeted attack from Drogon, there’s a LOT of Wildfire around that’ll likely go up. So I can possibly see an accidental burning of KL that might make her look like the Mad Queen to bystanders- and the other main characters.

    I just keep thinking about what Cersei did when she was cornered before. She blew up the High Sparrow along with the sept containing hundreds(?) of innocent people in it. This time, she’ll be completely cornered and in even more danger. I think she has plans for that wildfire herself. She also ominously said she had plans for Dany.

    So, my point is, (yes, I’m getting there) if the wildfire goes up, it won’t be an accident. I think it will be a calculated part of Cersei’s plan. She is surely going to pull out all the stops this time. And part of her plan may be what you suggest. Set Dany up so it appears that she lights the wildfire, and also burns herself up in the process. I love the idea of Dany surviving wildfire though and foiling Cersei’s plan. I look forward to seeing Cersei’s face if that happens.

    And Jaime knows just how ruthless Cersei is. He saw the ruins of the sept. I think he’s going to KL to try and stop her from burning KL and all its inhabitants to the ground.

    I hope they’re not all stupid enough to agree to meet with Cersei again somewhere like the dragonpit so she can gleefully blow them all up together.

    I would love to see the Mountain burn by wildfire (dragon fire would be okay too) though. Because of what he did to his brother, I think he’s long overdue for getting up close and personal with a some fire.

  278. King in the North East:
    How’s that for an ending? A just ruler with good advisors.

    How’s that for an ending? Overdone? Trite? Simplistic and pandering?

    The honourable underdog comes out on top and rules well and justly. Ain’t that orginal? Now, I’ve no doubt at this point that’s exactly where this story is headed. Despite all the promise GOT showed with subverting expectations, its ending will likely succumb to one of the greatest fantasy cliches ever.

    My gripe with this is that it betrays the spirit of the story. George himself said that a good man does not necesserily make a good king (and vice versa). And while yes – it’s still possible – the problem is we’ve seen just that a million times in fantasy. They had the rare chance here to break the mold. To end the story with a flawed, realistic character on the throne who constantly struggles ruling (as Dany does) and relies on their advisers to pull through and ultimately do good in the long run. I’m no huge Dany fan but at least there’s something interesting, complex and original there.

    With Jon as king you’re once again going for the fantasy, for wish fulfillment. It’s been done to death.

  279. Inga: Jon had plenty of such impulses

    Plenty of? Can you give me ONE other example? Just one. Other than wanting to kill the man who had been repeatedly beating and raping his sister.

    I honestly can’t see Jon ever wanting or even considering to “burn them all”, even if he had a hundred dragons.

    Inga: I have a feeling that Jon might behead Varys himself. Varys is not only talking treason, he’s planning murder of Jon’s aunt who’s also the woman he loves. One way or another, IMO Jon will be more concerned about Sansa’s treason and Varys is nothing dear to him.

    Fair point. But Jon would at least recognize it if Varys had good reasons to betray Daenerys.

    Remember Ygritte? He still chose honor over her. She made her choices and he couldn’t support those even though he made all kinds of promises to her.

    Inga: Jon can handle that: Ygritte shot him with three arrows. In general, Jon has been deeling with female hysterya for his entire life, and he knows how to pat angry dragons.

    Oh, you do remember her. Sorry.

    Ygritte didn’t have a dragon. And I think Jon knew she would not have missed his vital organs if she really wanted to kill him.

    But regardless, he turned away from her, didn’t he? And he chose honor over her, didn’t he?

    Inga: So, if Sansa forces Jon to choose (and she does), the choice is obviuos: both his duty and his heart lies with aunt, even if he still has to find a way how to live with that dragon-lady. And, although I don’t think that Jon could make himself harm Sansa physically, he might see punishing her as his personal duty.

    I don’t think it’s obvious at all, but it’s a fair point. Jon did bow to her, so yeah that would be a huge conflict for him.

    But just like Ned, I think he might, eventually, choose family over honor. It would certainly bring his character full circle and cause an interesting conflict.

    And seeing as Jon is the rightful king, if he chose to betray Dany, technically it wouldn’t be treason.

  280. Inga,

    Wait… you’re comparing Jon’s beating Ramsay to the hypothetical scenario of Dany burning civilians?? Ramsay was one man who Jon knew had horrendously and repeatedly raped and abused his sister, and who had just murdered his little brother in front of his eyes. Jon beating him to a pulp was him losing his temper; Jon stopping himself from killing Ramsay was what we know him for – being measured, controlling his impulses to do the right thing, being level-headed. Jon has never killed innocents. The people he has killed took up arms against him. He tried to save his enemies because he knew it was in the best interests of them and his own people. Instead of watching a man burn to death (Dany’s chosen method of execution), Jon risked his own position to put the man out of his misery. Yet Dany killed hundreds of slave masters for the murder of those children on the crosses whether they were involved or not (she never did actually find out which ones were to blame and which might have objected to it), brought Dothraki to the Seven Kingdoms even though they rape and pillage (and smiled as Khal Drogo pledged to follow her across the sea and rape the Westerosi women), has continuously threAtened to burn cities to the ground (and al the civilians there in) and in the last episode has decided that killing 10,000 innocents is the cost of her freeing Westeros of a Tyrant. 10,000 people, an acceptable cost to rid them of Cersei. Do you honestly see Jon doing any of this? Because he beat one man almost to death but then stopped himself, without needing advisors to curb his worst impulses? If Jon had had a dragon, he wouldn’t have just hopped on to rain fire and Blood on everyone after he saw Rickon die and Sansa abused. That isn’t who Jon is. That is so abundantly clear.

    We don’t know what Varys is planning beyond that he wants Jon to sit the throne. If Dany hears that he has been speaking about betraying her, she will kill him. Should Varys be executed for speaking to Tyrion about a different choice? King Jaeherys pardoned his Hand for talking about treason, yet never acting on it because “words are wind”. Varys hasn’t committed treason yet. If he makes an attempt on Dany’s life, that’s different and in the world of Westeros, he should be executed, but if he just speaks of it, would Jon execute him? I don’t think he would. Would Dany? In a heartbeat.

    We were discussing what would make Jon turn away from Dany and oppose her. If she turns on him, tries to kill him or otherwise get rid of him, I am pretty sure he wouldn’t just take it on the chin and go, “okay Dany, you’re my queen, I’ll let you kill me”. I’m pretty sure he would turn against her. Just saying. Even Show!Jon couldn’t be that stupid. I hope!! 😬

  281. Kosten: The honourable underdog comes out on top and rules well and justly. Ain’t that orginal? Now, I’ve no doubt at this point that’s exactly where this story is headed. Despite all the promise GOT showed with subverting expectations, its ending will likely succumb to one of the greatest fantasy cliches ever.

    More cliche than Daenerys ending up on the throne?

    You know, the one character that has been proclaiming every other episode she wants and is entitled to the Iron Throne?

    How is that less of a cliche?

  282. Kosten,

    After Dany has spent seven and a half seasons saying “I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms and I will” (and variations on that theme), if she ends up sitting on that throne, that’s the biggest cliche there is. Magical princess builds herself up from nothing to take back her murdered father’s throne despite set back after set back. That’s not a cliche? If Jon ruling is a cliche (and it is) then so is Dany.

    That GRRM quote was about not seeing the aftermath of Aragorn’s rule. He did say that good men don’t always become good kings, but it was because he wanted to know more about what sort of a king Aragorn was, not that he didn’t think he would have been. That doesn’t preclude Jon sitting on the throne.

    I actually don’t think either Jon or Dany will end up on the throne. I did think Jon night before this season aired, but now I don’t think so anymore. I want him to, as I feel he’d be best for the role of unifying the disparate war-ravaged Kingdoms, but I just don’t see it happening.

  283. King in the North East,

    Well, who count as civilians? The first wildling group Jon attacked were just people sitting by fire on their own land, right? He spared Ygritte – his instinct to spare a woman prevailed, but he also learned that his brothers paid for that with their lives. He also defended the Wall from the wildlings who were basicly just angry and aggressive refugees. He hanged Olly – a child he loved, etc.

    Sure, Jon hates killing but he also uderstands that there are cases when killing is inevitable. As for Dany, I don’t think she enjoys it either. Sure, she felt a certain pleasure, when she was burning the khals (same as Jon, when he was killing NW mutinees or punching Ramsay); however, after the loot train attack she flew to Dragonstone in distress seeking understanding and she said to Jon that “Strength is terrible”.

    So, there’s more groundwork for Jon to show compassion to Dany, even if she accidently does something terrible, than to turn agains her.

  284. RG: Crap, it’s going to be about Sansa isn’t it?

    Well, at least that way it wouldn’t be all about cocks in the end. 😂

  285. Inga,

    1. The wildlings and the crows were at war. The wildlings weren’t innocent civilians. A civilian is someone who wouldn’t murder you if you walked up to them, someone who isn’t involved in the fighting or at war with you.

    2. He killed wildlings who attacked the wall. Again, not civilians. Again, they were at war, regardless of the wildlings’ motivations.

    3. He hanged a boy who actually killed him. Olly murdered him. Not only was he a murderer, but it was treason. And, who showed absolutely no regrets for doing so.

  286. Inga,

    Also, Jon was following orders and had been told that Wildlings were their enemies. He still had a lot to learn back then.

    And he did learn. Jon made peace with them.

    I don’t think I can say the same for Daenerys.

    Her solution in season 1: “I will burn anyone who wrongs me!”

    Her solution in season 8: “I will burn anyone who wrongs me!”

    Jon forgave and made peace, Dany still seeks revenge above all.

  287. Kosten,

    We know that the rough basis for GRRM’s story is the War of the Roses. We know that ended with the defeat of Richard III, the most famous “deformed” fictional character in English literature as written by Shakespeare. (He was a real person, obviously, but my understanding is that Shakespeare took some major liberties with both his physical appearance and his persona.) What if GRRM’s final subversion of the trope is to put his fictional equivalent of Richard III, Tyrion, on the throne? That would give his story an alternate ending on both levels—the historical and the fantasy one.

  288. King in the North East: More cliche than Daenerys ending up on the throne?

    More.

    King in the North East:
    How is that less of a cliche?

    It is. Sure – only marginally, but given how very flawed she is, still less of a cliche. Though there’s plenty of alternatives I’d be happier with. Sansa and Tyrion for instance. Maybe even Cersei or Gendry? Whatever, as long as it’s not some mindnumbing convenience –

    The perfect balance of ice and fire, both Stark and Targaryen, conveniently male, conveniently legitimate, loved by the people with the strongest claim to the throne. And just a really, really swell guy who doesn’t even clamor for the throne. Honestly …

  289. Wolfish,

    I think Tyrion would be a very good choice (and after Jon, I feel he would be best at the job). However, what I struggle to see is who would make him King and how it wouldn’t lead to another civil war. If there’s one thing reading Fire and Blood has taught me, it’s just how many lords there are out there in Westeros and that all it takes is for someone to rally them to a cause and they go like sheep! As Varys tells Tyrion, they are going to need the support of the lords. Would the lords support Tyrion? Even if they could put aside their prejudices, Tyrion is a kinslayer after his murdering Tywin, which in the eyes of the Westerosi, is a very grave sin. Most also probably believe he is a Kingslayer, as I doubt word has spread over his innocence in Joffrey’s murder – which wasn’t just the death of the king, but another instance of kinslaying (or so they believe). He also then went across the sea and in their eyes, came back serving *insert Randall Tarly’s sexist, racist, xenophobic diatribe about Dany*. Even if Tyrion finds a way to save everyone in King’s Landing again, they already turned on him once before after he saved them all after the Battle of the Blackwater.

    I think GRRM, in his infinite creativity, has enough time to devise a convincing way to see Tyrion seat the throne in the books (and be supported in doing so), but I don’t think the show has enough time for such a turnaround.

  290. Kosten,

    I’ve seen a lot of movies and shows, read a lot of books. Based on this I can say the following.

    Character completes goal or gets exactly what they always wanted = Nearly EVERY story ever told

    Character gets forced into something out of duty = Extremely rarely happens

    So it’s more cliche how?

  291. Che,

    Excellent response.

    Alas, D&D have truncated the last two seasons so much that there really isn’t enough time left to adequately explain why any of them are going to wind up on the throne (or not). Sigh.

  292. RG,

    Cersei still hates Sansa. Imagine Sansa up on the ramparts instead of Missandei. It would end the same way.

    Sansa made a point of saying Jon took the army with him. Tormund is gone. Jaime is gone. It’s basically Sansa and Brienne left at Winterfell (and Bran). Arya already told Sansa she needs better guards. Brienne had those odd lines about the logs in the fire.

    Cersei would absolutely make a pre-emptive strike on a decimated Winterfell, and Sansa always was her most valuable hostage.

  293. Mango: I can switch the channel. I have done that on many occasions with GOT.I am not as dedicated a viewer as many here.

    I’m curious.

    If you haven’t watched the whole story, how can you pretend to know it well enough to even make predictions?

    Because often character things are revealed by other characters in a seemingly separate storyline.

    I’ve watched every episode several times over (and read the books and companion books several times over) and I don’t feel able to predict things with any certainty. Good guesses, yes, like Jaime dying, Cersei being the death of him (Greek tragedy type of thing) but otherwise… I just don’t know.

  294. Che,

    As for Dany trying to kill Jon – she had an opportunity to get rid of him during the battle with the dead. Instead, she covered his back more than once. So, again it would be very hard to imagine such a situation.

  295. I just got finished watching episode 4 a second time, and I still loved it. I think it set up the ending very well.

    On Varys’ choices, the still with Varys and Jon on the beach intrigues me. This looks like the coast by King’s landing, not Dragonstone. Why would Varys bring him there without Davos? To treat with the Golden Company? Or something else?

    I find it hard to believe that the hidden king trope will play out leaving Jon on the Iron Throne, but as

    Che,

    said, it wouldn’t be subverting anything if Daenerys sits on the throne. Unless she achieves her dream but finds that she is unfulfilled.

    So how this all ends remains a mystery, a tribute to D & D’s storytelling. Assuming that the story has a Targaryen restoration at its end, there remains uncertainty,. Of course either Daenerys or Jon could die and the other take the throne, but I actually think the options in case they both survive or neither do are more intriguing:

    a. Union: An awkward marriage where they both share the throne, and AeJon agrees in order to be a father to his child by Daenerys, but it is not the love romance that makes them both happy. The ending scene has them sitting side by side with the tension obviously palpable.

    b. Jon’s Exile: Jon leaves the realm to Daenerys, taking himself out of the game as Aemon did. Jon’s final arc is to help put a Targaryen on the throne, and find some happiness for himself. I actually quite like an ending where the last scene is AeJon being reunited with Ghost north of the wall and Tormund says “Welcome home.” This is very foreshadowed in Ep4 in his farewell to Tormund, and would be a callback to LOTR’s ending and Frodo’s departure to the undying lands as some have said.

    c. Daenerys’ Exile. The Essos option seems less likely but could happen. Daenerys intentionally or inadvertently destroys King’s landing (wildfyre under the red keep), and comes to see she can no longer be queen in Westeros. She helps install Jon on the throne and departs. Imagine a homecoming in Mereen where an adoring crowd screams “Myhsa,” and Daenerys stands at the top of the great Pyramid of Mereen looking wistfully West, and cut to a throne room (or something) where Jon sits alone. This is foreshadowed somewhat in Season 5 when Tyrion offers Daenerys the option of foregoing the Iron Throne and staying in the Bay of Dragons: “This is where you belong, this is where you can do the most good.”

    d. Regency: Jon dies saving Daenerys, and Daenerys dies in childbirth leading to a Lannister/Stark joint regency. Last scene – Time Jump, with Rhaella’s name day, with the Sansa/Tyrion children in attendance.

    I think any of these options works for me, although they won’t for various parts of the fan base.

    As far as this Sunday, unless there is a scene showing Brienne heading to KL, this will all be in KL and Dragonstone. Here are some thoughts:

    Daenerys is despondent at her losses but Jon (or Greyworm or Tyrion or someone) convinces her to pursue her destiny

    Euron gets flamed. The Golden Company gets flamed or is turned.

    Wildfyre consumes the Red Keep; Drogon dies in the explosion but Daenerys survives.

    Cersei flees KL and survives to episode 6; Jaime or Arya kill her then (Qyburn gets his face stolen perhaps).

    The Hound Kills the Mountain who is covering her retreat but suffers a mortal wound; Arya shows that she has learned where the heart is and ends his misery. (Foreshadowed in Ep 4)

    Varys supports Jon’s claim and is burnt to death by Drogon. Foreshadowed in Ep4 and 7xep2.

    Episode 6 has a grand council with Edmere, Gendry and Robbyn showing up (finally). A magna carta moment perhaps with whoever is trying to hold the realm together.

    On to Sunday!

  296. King in the North East:
    Anyway, I’m willing to follow the story wherever it goes but for now I’m calling it like this:

    Dany wins the war against Cercei, but goes much too far in accomplishing that goal, essentially becoming Cercei 2.0.

    I’m betting ep5 ends with her taking the Iron Throne.

    Ep6: Now the remaining characters need to decide how to deal with her, with Jon being talked into overthrowing her.

    In broad strokes, I think that’s what’s going to occur.

    Sounds pretty legit to me.

  297. Inga,

    At that point in the story, she hadn’t had time to process the news nor had she begged him to keep his secret to himself. When she finds out he told his sisters, one of whom told Tyrion, who then plotted with Varys (or at the very least enabled Varys’ plotting) to betray her, I think she might feel differently. Besides, if she is going to fall, then we haven’t actually seen her at her darkest and when/if she is at her darkest, there is no predicting how she will behave when/if she goes full Fire and Blood.

  298. Wolfish:
    Che,

    Excellent response.

    Alas, D&D have truncated the last two seasons so much that there really isn’t enough time left to adequately explain why any of them are going to wind up on the throne (or not). Sigh.

    I agree. I wish they had kept to the 10-episode seasons. It would have gone a long way to making season 7 feel a lot less rushed (and like it was just putting pieces into position for season 8) and would make season 8 feel more fleshed out. I wish we’d had episodes 1-5 about the AOTD threat and then 6-10 about the battle for the throne. It would have given the story more time to breath and to set in to motion all the character moments we crave and the politicking the show used to be known for. Just as an example, episode 4 could easily have been split across two normal-length episodes with a few more character interactions included to make up the extra time. I would have loved to see more conversation between the Stark ‘siblings’, more conversations between Jon and Sam/Davos about how he feels with this insane news (we haven’t actually been shown anything about how he feels! It’s insane!). I’d have loved to see Jon talk to Bran about what his parents were like, which could have been a perfect moment for a flashback to the Knight of the Laughing tree). So many things! I want to see som many things!

  299. ShameShameShame,

    This is a very good point. What if, instead of striking Winterfell, someone snatches Sansa? It might seem a bit left-field because there isn’t the set-up for it, but that would be an epic awful plot twist, if Cersei ends up with Sansa held hostage.

  300. I don’t think D&D or GRRM care as much about subverting expectation as many of you think they do.

    I think they care more about telling a good story.

    I also think the show’s never been about being subversive as much as it’s been about keeping the true main plot hidden by having a ton of concurrent plots to distract us.

  301. Ser Pounce,

    It can mean different things I think, maybe focusing the last episode only on the main characters and not about the plot. The plot of sopranos ended the episode before, and the last one was about the family itself.

    Or maybe that it focused on the theme of the show a lot, so that the last episode focus a lot about what GoT is about. But then I asked myself what is GoT about as a theme. A couple of themes come to mind: Leadership, playing the game, good guys not always winning. But one theme comes to mind a lot when I think of GOT: Dealing with trauma.
    I think that’s what GoT is about, how do you deal when you’re father is murdered before your eyes, seeing your brother sewed on his dogs head, getting abused by your brother (dany) etc.
    Another theme that is very important in it, even when GoT seems very dark tones, family. For instance the difference of Dany and Jon can be rooted back how family treated them. Dany isolated, Jon loved by his family (except his stepmom)
    Another theme is “stories/history”. Another theme is that the truth is not what the people remember, what people remember is the stories that they’re told, as Cersei stated to Joffrey in season 1: The truth is what you make of it. A lie can become the truth if it’s repeated enough. So maybe the end is about “History not telling the truth but a fabricated lie.”

    And that last one will be concerned about Dany, it can go 2 routes 1. Dany will be a hero but is remember as the villain in history, Cersei played her role right with Varys. Or 2 what if it’s exactly the other way, what if Dany goes full dragon rampage, gets taken out, but they fabricated a lie that Dany died a hero saving KL from Cersei, so that Jon can take the throne more easily. (People can’t have a single faith in Cersei else Jon is just a pretender who try to dethrone the rightful heir)

    I have a feeling another lie will be made to justify Jon on the throne, yes he is rheagar’s son, but I don’t think that’s something that can convince the common folk to follow him.

  302. ShameShameShame,

    I would actually love this to happen, for several reasons. I think it would really motivate Jon, Arya and Sandor, could cause conflict between Jon and Dany, and also it would bring Brienne to KL…
    Okay wait, I don’t want Cersei getting near Brienne.

    But I could see it because someone is clearly feeding Cersei info to get Euron’s ships exactly where they should be and to capture Dany’s only bff left so I’m sure they know that Winterfell is practically undefended again and Sansa is an easy grab.
    As far as Sansa, she’s basically been a hostage for nearly the entire series-but she’d handle Cersei much better now-so closure.

    Plus we know that evil queen loves punishing women on the show who have “wronged” her. Ellaria, Shame Nun, Marg-though that backfired on her for a minute.

    I am wondering what will happen to Sam and Bran in that situation though…

  303. Che:
    ShameShameShame,

    This is a very good point. What if, instead of striking Winterfell, someone snatches Sansa? It might seem a bit left-field because there isn’t the set-up for it, but that would be an epic awful plot twist, if Cersei ends up with Sansa held hostage.

    That would be the only explanation for the otherwise-throwaway S7e2 scene of Jon choking LF.

  304. Mango,

    Even if Cersei die, she can be shown in the final. Maybe Bran flashback stuff, maybe her lying dead which she is needed as an actor. Ian glenn has been in 4 episodes, but in the last he was a corpse.

    Che,

    That’s the books, in the show the main characters are Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei. the pay-checks gave that away. That’s the big 5 of the show.

    I can see one of Dany and Jon dying in 5 but not both. Because then only Lannisters are main-characters.

    ShameShameShame,

    And that could be the reason why she gets killed. She lied big time, and put guilt on Jaime’s mind.

  305. Mango: He is undead.

    I don’t agree. Jon is not “undead”. He was brought back to “life.” He’s alive. His heart beats, and he still needs to eat, breath, and sleep just like any other live person. He will grow old, if he lives. Undead would be like a vampire who never ages, and who is very hard to kill. Jon is a live person.

  306. ShameShameShame,

    Yeah I never thought Cersei was pregnant. Maggy and Olenna don’t lie. But Cersei does, especially to her two brothers.
    I mean, if I’m wrong, I’ll own it, but I don’t think I am. She’s got Euron, Jaime and Tyrion wrapped around her finger with this pregnancy lie, and remember what she told Sansa about a woman’s weapons. She hates being a woman because she believed it was why her father never took her seriously, but she’s pretty comfortable using it as a tool to get what she wants. (more so in the books-but its there in her character)

  307. Ghostgirl:
    How about this for an ending?

    The doors open and Ghost trots in. (Why they just let a direwolf into the throne room remains unanswered.) Ghost blanks Jon and purposefully strides towards the throne.

    Then he lifts his leg and pees on the throne, marking it as his. 🙂

  308. onefromaway,

    The loud music of our youth has taken a toll on many of us. I usually have to watch the “with lyrics” version on half the songs I start to like, lol!

  309. Wolfish,

    I’m with you. I think Sandor’s time with cool priest guy and Arya, his visions and burying that family…he’s had so much growth. If he’s confronting the Mountain, I almost want him to be there to put his zombie brother out of his misery instead of as payback.

    I have a feeling I’m in the minority. The cleganebowl is too strong. 🙂

  310. King in the North East,

    To be fair, the Wildings didn’t kill Jon’s children (dragons) or his best friend. Dany has every right to want revenge. You think thousands didn’t die when Robert took the throne? Thousands starved to death as well after they burned and sacked the fields of innocent people. His rebellion started out of revenge as well yet he was hailed as a savior. You can say his decision was the right one but that doesn’t erase the fact that innocent people died because of it.

    Che,

    Jon will never rule the South, he’s a Northerner through and through. I’d bet my lunch money on him not sitting on the Iron Throne.

  311. Che,

    I wanted to add the youtube video + script but you just went before me, so no need for that.

    And I think it make sense that he says that he will come for his brother. (And hopefully the lord of light help him kill his brother)

    talvikorppi,

    Nope he says who, I watched the video on youtube and the subtitles on HBO says who also.

  312. Che,

    I agree with you on the bowl world. It feels like they’re having a cook-off making the best broth.

    And what if Sandor loses but Arya finishes him off. Or both of Sandor and Arya are needed.

    talvikorppi,

    I think he fights the mountain just to save the realm. He knows he is important to Cersei is needs to be taken out. Without Gregor Cersei won’t feel save.

    The biggest question is, is clegane-fist-fight before or after the death of Cersei. What if Jaime kills Cersei, Mountain kills Jaime, and after that the hound finish off his brother.

    Or is it possible that the hound will fight his brother so Jaime could slip past to end Cersei.

  313. kathy,

    The dialogue from 804:

    Varys: Cersei needs to be destroyed, but if we attack King’s Landing with Drogon and the Unsullied and the Dothraki, tens of thousands of innocents will die. That is why Cersei is bringing them into the Red Keep. These are the people you came here to protect. I beg you, Your Grace. Do not destroy the city you came to save. Do not become what you have always struggled to defeat.

    Dany: Do you believe we’re here for a reason, Lord Varys? I’m here to free the world from tyrants. That is my destiny and I will serve it, no matter the cost.

    Tyrion: It could be a fortnight before Jon and the allied armies make it to King’s Landing.
    In the meantime, demand Cersei surrender. Offer her her life in exchange for the throne. If there’s a chance to avoid the coming slaughter, we should make the effort.

    Dany: Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps it’s good the people see that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down upon them.

    The deaths that Dany is speaking of here aren’t comparable to the terrible side-effects of war, such as famine. She is outright talking about killing civilians (through burning them with dragon fire) to rid Westeros of Cersei because she believes this is her destiny merely for the fact that those civilians are in her way. She is talking as though killing tens of thousands of men, women and children is an acceptable cost for ousting Cersei and is already talking about justifying her choice: “It’s not my fault that I was forced to kill all those people, it’s because Cersei wouldn’t listen.”

    “Dany has every right to want revenge.”
    Yes she does, I don’t disagree, but those innocent civilians aren’t responsible for killing Rhaegal and they’re not responsible for killing Missandei. They are people, like you and me, who Dany is talking about murdering because they are in the way of her destiny.

    We will see if she follows through with everything she says. I personally don’t think she will; I think she will pull it back and not descend into the darkness, but if she does go through with this, if she does burn innocent people, then no amount of whataboutery can excuse the fact that she has become the same type of tyrant that she believes Cersei to be.

  314. David A,

    I actually quite like an ending where the last scene is AeJon being reunited with Ghost north of the wall and Tormund says “Welcome home.” This is very foreshadowed in Ep4 in his farewell to Tormund, and would be a callback to LOTR’s ending and Frodo’s departure to the undying lands as some have said.

    actually any of those endings would satifiy me. Not depending on them to be true, just interesting ‘what if’ scenarious

  315. A Targrayen Queen not able to produce a heir is useless. If it turns out Danny is not pregnant she go back to Mereen, because Dario was defeated in Meeren and needs help. A king will be selected, a Targaryen king, Tyrion, Bran or the new Dorne Prince will tell them Aerys is his father and power hungry super smart always wannabe Queen will be Sansa, actually on papers they still should be married., while John will be warden of the north. Final picture will be Ghost getting a hug. While watching the last 2 episodes I need to bang my head often on the wall asking myself always why they don’t just hire the faceless men to kill Cersey. Starks honor the faceless god in their weirwood, so the clue is not that far away. Maybe in the show they changed Starks to the seven gods, I don’t remember, maybe it is the same.

  316. kathy: To be fair, the Wildings didn’t kill Jon’s children (dragons) or his best friend. Dany has every right to want revenge. You think thousands didn’t die when Robert took the throne? Thousands starved to death as well after they burned and sacked the fields of innocent people. His rebellion started out of revenge as well yet he was hailed as a savior. You can say his decision was the right one but that doesn’t erase the fact that innocent people died because of it.

    I don’t see how that’s relevant?

    Okay, there might be some accidental casualties, but that’s not what I’ve been getting at at all.

    It’s about INTENTIONALLY killing civilians/innocents.

    Robert went to war (for a bad reason I’ll note, though he didn’t know that) and yes, there will have been some unintentional innocent casualties. That’s very different from his order to kill all Targaryan children after he’d won.

    I also don’t think he was a good king/person, nor that his decisions were in any way justified.

    Without Robert’s rebellion, the Mad King wouldn’t have wanted to “burn them all” in the first place. Robert went to war… over a WOMAN. One who didn’t love him, which he probably was too oblivious to notice.

    Frankly, it’s not a good example to try and convince me since (for the time being) Robert did much worse things than Dany ever did. You made the mistake of assuming that Robert’s war was justified and that he didn’t commit, what would now be considered, warcrimes.

    Anyway, it’s not completely dissimilar to Daenerys ordering the crucifixion of the masters without any sort of investigation or burning an innocent man alive AFTER she’d taken the city.

  317. Che,

    What would change Jon’s mind is, if Dany is willing to kill Cersei, and Tyrion says: you can’t kill the unborn baby. But Dany says something like: Cersei needs to be stopped no matter what.

    I think Jon has no problem with executing Cersei for her crimes, but not an innocent baby.

    RG,

    What if Dany founds out about Tyrion and Varys knowing the truth, and she knows it’s because of Sansa and she orders the execution of Sansa for treason. Or what if she goes one step further, she can’t know if it’s Sansa, Arya or Bran or Sam and she makes a statement that they all need to go. But personally I don’t see the second part happening, I can see her ordering to excecute Sansa but not everyone.

  318. Ser Whatever:

    … But I would have loved to see cutaways of her making her way to the NK, interspersed with all the fighting, with maybe voices overlaid, Syrio saying “Not Today”, Mel’s prophecy, Jaquen teaching her the Valar Morghulis words, even her own voice telling Tywin “Anyone can be killed”. That would have given such weight to it, years of training and tough knocks preparing her for this moment.

    Agree on showing us her way, but purleeze, no voiceovers! 😀 We don’t need spoon-fed! Or let the music tell the story. Every book-read watcher would’ve thought “quiet as a mouse, calm as still water, swift as a snake” and held their breaths. Non-book readers would’ve understood the stealth, she just displayed in the library scene.

    But no. We got the big surprise GOTCHA moment. Super-Arya leaping out of nowhere, yelling and screaming.

    ‘mkey.

  319. Che: The deaths that Dany is speaking of here aren’t comparable to the terrible side-effects of war, such as famine. She is outright talking about killing civilians (through burning them with dragon fire) to rid Westeros of Cersei because she believes this is her destiny merely for the fact that those civilians are in her way. She is talking as though killing tens of thousands of men, women and children is an acceptable cost for ousting Cersei and is already talking about justifying her choice: “It’s not my fault that I was forced to kill all those people, it’s because Cersei wouldn’t listen.”

    You keep getting it right.

    It’s truly puzzling for me that some can’t see this. Tyrion and Varys are right to be very concerned.

  320. Kosten: How’s that for an ending? Overdone? Trite? Simplistic and pandering?

    The honourable underdog comes out on top and rules well and justly. Ain’t that orginal? Now, I’ve no doubt at this point that’s exactly where this story is headed. Despite all the promise GOT showed with subverting expectations, its ending will likely succumb to one of the greatest fantasy cliches ever.

    My gripe with this is that it betrays the spirit of the story. George himself said that a good man does not necesserily make a good king (and vice versa).And while yes – it’s still possible – the problem is we’ve seen just that a million times in fantasy. They had the rare chance here to break the mold. To end the story with a flawed, realistic character on the throne who constantly struggles ruling (as Dany does) and relies on their advisers to pull through and ultimately do good in the long run. I’m no huge Dany fan but at least there’s something interesting, complex and original there.

    With Jon as king you’re once again going for the fantasy, for wish fulfillment. It’s been done to death.

    I agree. If I had to choose between the two, I would choose Daenerys as ruler over Jon.

    However, my wish is for them to rule together. I want them to marry and have a Targ baby! To me, this is the perfect ending. I think that Jon and Daenerys would make excellent rulers as a team – probably the best that Westeros has ever seen. But, sadly, I doubt it will end this way. 🙁

  321. I rewatched from Season 1 Episode 1 recently, cramming it all in to a month of so before this season started and I have to say, the scene where Drogo pledges to take the Dothraki across the sea to Westeros for Daenerys has been on my mind quite a bit since.

    In it, he pledges to kill the iron men in their suits, tear down their stone houses, rape their women and take their children as slaves all while Dany watches on, shocked that he was finally doing so and also happy by his pledging this for her (as this is what she had been asking him to do). It didn’t sit right with me upon rewatch and it comes to mind now. While Tarly and his ilk are definitely xenophobic racists for labelling everyone who came with Dany as savages, it is still problematic to Dany’s character arc that she brought the Dothraki to Westeros knowing that this is what they wanted to do to her new subjects and that this is what they have always done – taken slaves and raped women etc. It seems at odds with her desire to end slavery, to enlist a group of people who raid villages and make slaves of the victims. Was she going to send them back after the war was won? Was she going to try to get them to agree to change their ways like she did with Yarn Greyjoy over the Iron Born’s raping and pillaging? The whole thing just feels odd. Were they just a plot device all along and was there never a plan for how to integrate them into life in Westeros?

    Here’s the speech if you can’t remember the specifics of the scene too well.

    [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-6u0HWodsw&w=560&h=315%5D

  322. kevin1989

    ,But one theme comes to mind a lot when I think of GOT: Dealing with trauma.
    I think that’s what GoT is about, how do you deal when you’re father is murdered before your eyes, seeing your brother sewed on his dogs head, getting abused by your brother (dany) etc

    Yes. I have often finished a book or episode, thinking of the aftermath of that trauma. Jons resurrection is a big one I wanted to see, or Bran becoming disabled, …. traumatic, life changing.

  323. Inga,

    – Jon beats Ramsay at the end of the battle, after he know for some time Ramsay raped his sister. Killed his brother before his eyes just moments ago. Almost got Jon killed just seconds ago, and you think it’s the same when he hits Ramsay a couple of times? That Jon stopped at one moment instead of beating him to dead made one thing clear: His rages stopped by himself (which was in fact very fast, with all that adrealine in his body). And about Sansa who says he know that she did that? I think sansa did that on her own and probably made it seems she was never there and the hounds just escaped.
    – Jon executing varys for treason? Did he excecute Bran and Sam this season?
    – Jon could handle Dany because he handled Ygritte? couple of arrows is nothing compared to a dragon. And the big different is, Ygritte never wanted to kill Jon else Jon would be dead right there as Thormund stated. If Dany threatened Jon she meant it fully, or do you think Dany will say something like: I’m going to kill you Jon, but doesnt mean it?
    – It doesn’t matter if Sansa is miles away, just Dany utter the words of excecuting Sansa is enough for Jon turning against Dany.

    The biggest question is more, will one of these points come to pass, or is it just one big fantasy and none of them happen, if that is the case, Jon will stay with Dany.

  324. Does anybody think Cersei may live? I don’t believe she is pregnant anymore (if she ever was) but she may try and use that to escape if she’s defeated, which looks likely.

    Previous filming news:

    I don’t whether they filmed fake scenes or made it look like it with the filming photos of Lena and Kit in KL. I did notice that Cersei was wearing her black dress and no crown. Jon was wearing his usual emsemble without Longclaw. I am starting to wonder if we were led on.
  325. Che,

    That made me think of someone I knew who studied literature. I talked about him about books and he read a lot of books I don’t know. And I stated that a song of ice and fire was my favorite, he stated he read the first 2 books and halfway the third he stopped, his reason:
    – It’s just too predictable, the princess with the magical dragons is going to conquer every bad thing in the world and put herself on the throne in the end.
    He stated that almost every fantasy story with dragons has that theme. A main character which could control the dragons (or a dragon) and saves the world with it.

    So I have to agree with you, it’s cliche and to predictable.

  326. Che with all due respect I don’t think your friend has read that much fantasy. Just sayin…But year, I’d really rather not see that happen, regardless if it cliche or not

  327. King in the North East,

    Aerys had a sever case of burnemallitis before the war ever started. In fact, Jon Arryn (not Robert) started the Rebellion after:
    1. Rhaegar apparently kidnapped Lyanna
    2. Mad King killed Rickard and Brandon Stark
    3. Issued a murder death kill warrant for Ned and Robert.

    To say the war was unjustified is quite a conclusion.

  328. Che,

    I think the set up for it might be, unfortunately, Missandei’s death. If Cersei takes Sansa hostage and threatens to kill her if her demands aren’t met, everyone has just been very painfully reminded that she will indeed kill Sansa.

    Imagine if Cersei demands that Jon bends the knee to betray Dany, or she’ll kill Sansa? Ouch. Or, god forbid, Arya. What would Jon choose?

    … which is why Sansa would be such a valuable hostage. Arya too of course but I think Arya has a different path.

    ETA if Brienne is killed during a Sansa kidnapping, Jaime will go apeshite. As if Cersei isn’t already doomed, she’d be even more so.

  329. Inga,

    There’s a different by killing an enemy who is armed and ready to kill you (the wildlings who you are talking about) and killing 10.000 people who are unarmed and you want to rule over after that.
    And as it was stated in episode 4, The citizens had no problem with Cersei protecting them from Dany, that means fear is already rooted in them. So why fuel that fear with 10.000 deads? (personally I think she will not go that route and go a route that will not kill a single civilian)
    But if she goes that route, if she kills 10.000 that means she will rule them with fear, is that something that sounds a way to go?

    It remember me of the moment of Varys and Ned in season 1, Ned was asked the question if his pride was more important than the lives of innocent people in westeros.

    That’s something also a theme of the show, our heroes are the high lords (except some like Davos), we see them as the good or evil in Cersei’s case. We understand why Robb went to war because the Starks are good and Lannisters bad. but that war killed many many innocent people that would be alive if Robb just bend the knee to Joffrey. The big question is was Robb right defending his house and take revenge for his father, but that choice the people were pawns that died in the process, or should he have bow to safe all those peoples lives.

    I think that’s a big reason why we are seeing the heroes of the story being of a great house, instead of peasants, if it was show through the eyes of the peasants, Robb will not be shown as the hero, because they were the ones suffering for him taking on arms.

    2 quotes of the story:
    “The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are. That was the way of war.”
    and
    “Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?”

  330. ash,

    That wasn’t my friend. Wrong poster. Sadly, none of my friends read fantasy books. They all watch the show and never get into in depth books chat with me. That’s why I’m here all the time!

  331. Mr Fixit:
    King in the North East,

    Aerys had a sever case of burnemallitis before the war ever started. In fact, Jon Arryn (not Robert) started the Rebellion after:
    1. Rhaegar apparently kidnapped Lyanna
    2. Killed Rickard and Brandon Stark
    3. Issued a murder death kill warrant for Ned and Robert.

    To say the war was unjustified is quite a conclusion.

    Yeah, okay.

    I retract that part. Though in the show that’s never made clear, is it?

    But the point stands that Robert did many questionable things.

  332. RG:
    ShameShameShame,

    I would actually love this to happen, for several reasons. I think it would really motivate Jon, Arya and Sandor, could cause conflict between Jon and Dany, and also it would bring Brienne to KL…
    Okay wait, I don’t want Cersei getting near Brienne.

    But I could see it because someone is clearly feeding Cersei info to get Euron’s ships exactly where they should be and to capture Dany’s only bff left so I’m sure they know that Winterfell is practically undefended again and Sansa is an easy grab.
    As far as Sansa, she’s basically been a hostage for nearly the entire series-but she’d handle Cersei much better now-so closure.

    Plus we know that evil queen loves punishing women on the show who have “wronged” her. Ellaria, Shame Nun, Marg-though that backfired on her for a minute.

    I am wondering what will happen to Sam and Bran in that situation though…

    Ah yes it would absolutely make Sandor insanely angry as well. Ouch. I see it happening for all the reason you mention and more.

    Samwell will be Samwise, entrusted to finish the story in the Red Book of Westmarch/Westeros, with Bran’s help. We know Sam is the GRRM of the story.

  333. Che,

    I think what they should have done was having season 7 including 1 or 2 extra episode to let the story breathe (I still think the cast getting paid per episode instead of season was the reason for less episodes and bigger episodes. I think season 7 could have had a little bit more Citadel, and Winterfell story could have been fleshed out more. The only episode that felt that was construct good was the final the rest were amazing on it’s on but could use a upgrade.
    For season 8 I think episode 1 and 2 felt like it should. Even when I think 3 and 4 were perfect I think the battle should have been 2 episodes. Part one ending with the NK raising the dead as a cliffhanger. the second part going from there, if they fleshed out the crypts scenes more and a small battle with the WW captains it could contained 30 minutes of battle. And we could have a scene where Jon found Arya with Bran. Then the funeral + party could have been in this episode. And the Dany begging Jon scene.
    Episode 5 could have been telling Sansa and Arya the truth, a bit more about Brienne Jaime as a couple. Everybody going south. And maybe a scene with Cersei south with a wedding with Euron and her manipulating the common folk. The episode could have ended with her giving a speech to the people: Come here safe, I protect you from the dragon queen, we will defeat her. *People cheering*
    Episode 6 could have been what second part of 4 was with extra couple of scenes with Missandei. I think they could have mirrored that with Ned in chains in 1×07,1×08 and 1×10. Showing Arya at the twins. Jaime halfway to KL everyone is on there way, which Missandei being captive being the main story of the episode.
    Episode 7 could have been what 5 will be. (Can’t say if it should be 8 or 9 or 10 episodes)

    But still I’m happy what we got. It’s easy for us to say who have weeks to think about it, when D&D needed to get the scripts ready fast by HBO.

  334. onefromaway:

    Along the lines of what you suggest Wolfish, maybe Gregor has just an ounce of free will left to ask Sandor and Arya to give him mercy to let him finally die. (Just what is the quality of Gregor’s life like now anyways?) And they do it out of compassion, not anything else, the gift.Now that is something I would like to see.At least it can be in my own “personal version” of how GOT wraps up!

    I love this twist to the overhyped Cleganebowl. That in the end it’s about compassion and mercy. Not revenge or hate. That would be so cathartic to Gregor, Sandor and Arya.

    Yep, I’m making this my head-canon from now on. Thank you, onefromaway.

    PS. head-canon = “personal version”

  335. Wolfish,

    D&D gave season 8 the exact number of episodes needed to complete the story. Seasons 1, 4, and 8 are the seasons with the best pacing.

  336. Ladies and gentlemen, reading all these comments here made me realise I absolutely love this site and I am grateful to have found such an intelligent community, with real debates and logical arguments, stuff like that is so rare to find these days! It’s a pity I found this so late in the show.
    However, and no, not in the Ned Stark sense of the word ‘but’, I have the feeling most of us are trying to imagine how the end would be by trying to find a better ruler of Westeros. Why is Jon the better one, why is Dany, why a council would be, why Tyrion would be, etc, by finding qualities and flaws in each of them. My belief is none of them is. Why. Because none of them can end slavery, none of them can end misery, none of them can end crime. None of them can bring only peace and prosperity (I know Jon’s character is build like the classical hero, but no, not even he can). Because George Martin ‘s fantasy is not LOTR, he has deep roots in the reality of the flawed human world. And in this world you cannot have one without its opposite. You cannot have peace without war, freedom without slavery, justice without crime and so on. Every utopia ends in a terrible dystopia eventually. Each of the characters, at least the mentally sane ones, can bring peace and prosperity for a period of time but then, something will break and it will be game of thrones all over again, even by no fault of their own. The only way to stop it is to stop humanity. Not even democratic elections can help 😊. I believe Jon would have been a great ruler of the North and Daenerys the just ruler those people is Essos needed. But they ended up, willingly or not, in the wrong place. I know the story and the why and the how, but I can’t get over the fact that the stupid pointy chair can only bring them sorrow and destruction. I hope for a great resolution for the characters we have come to cherish for so many seasons, whether they live or not, I hope the show will tell their stories in the greatest way, considering their arcs and I sure hope they won’t destroy years of character development just for the thrill of some irrational twist. However, in a fantasy like Martin’s I don’t believe it is possible to break the wheel. I believe it is possible to fail. And then to get up. And to go and fail again.

  337. RG,

    The Hound hasn’t given up killing people, he’s now killing the right people. I mean, he killed all the Brotherhood defectors who killed Brother Ray. I don’t think Cleganebowl will be out of character.

  338. Mr Fixit,

    Aerys did a lot of mad things already before this. Further, in the books are a lot of hints for Tyrion’s father, he raped Joanna Lannister, wife and cousin of Tywin and nine month later she got Tyrion with white hair like a Targaryen. Some other hints like Tyrion and Jon dream about Dragons, make it very obvious that Tyrion is also a Targaryen. In the show there is only Bran who can tell this. There are a few hints also in the show that Tyrion always wanted Dragons, etc., so it maybe will come up also when they need a King or Queen in episode 6 and this is the major twist DD talked about.

  339. Inga:

    What could make Jon change his mind about Dany?
    Let’s go through the points.

    – She goes on a “burn them all”, “fire and blood” rampage
    Jon had plenty of such impulses himself: he beated Ramsay with a shield and gave Sansa his blessing to feed him to the dogs. Imagin, if he had a dragon.

    – She roasts Varys (killing him without a trial in such a manner would not be something Jon is on board with)
    I have a feeling that Jon might behead Varys himself. Varys is not only talking treason, he’s planning murder of Jon’s aunt who’s also the woman he loves. One way or another, IMO Jon will be more concerned about Sansa’s treason and Varys is nothing dear to him.

    – Dany turns on him because she’s threatened by him
    Jon can handle that: Ygritte shot him with three arrows. In general, Jon has been deeling with female hysterya for his entire life, and he knows how to pat angry dragons.

    – Dany inadvertently or purposefully kills someone he cares about because she sees them as her enemy
    Arya is too sneaky, Sansa is too far away. Sure, Sansa would be the prime candidate to provoke Dany’s wrath, but Jon’s wrath might be even more dreadful. To him Sansa has always been that self-entitled and obusive sister; he saught her recognition and he looked after her out of duty, but she has always been annoying as hell. And now Jon has another close blood relative who also needs looking after and who gave him much more respect and recognition and backup than Sansa ever did. So, if Sansa forces Jon to choose (and she does), the choice is obviuos: both his duty and his heart lies with aunt, even if he still has to find a way how to live with that dragon-lady. And, although I don’t think that Jon could make himself harm Sansa physically, he might see punishing her as his personal duty.

    So, there’s only one person who could change Jon’s mind about claiming the throne: it’s Dany herself. And I still believe that she might do it: she has been described as “just”, although her justice has always been rather merciless. And giving Jon his birthright would be just, although merciless to Dany herself. It looks like she’s already changing her self-identification from been born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, to been deistined to fight tyrany. So, who knows, maybe, she has already decided to oust Cersei in order to make way for Jon rather than to sit the throne herself?

    mkay… The Sansa-hate is strong on this one.

  340. The theories on the ending are flying in. And yet, I bet none of us have come close to getting it mostly right. GRRM has said before that only a few fans have ever come close to guessing the ending while talking with him.

    So while we may think we know where the show is going thematically, particularly with Dany, the ending may still surprise us. Hopefully in a way that feels earned and poignant.

  341. Frank:
    Mr Fixit,

    Aerys did a lot of mad things already before this. Further, in the books are a lot of hints for Tyrion’s father, he raped Joanna Lannister, wife and cousin of Tywin and nine month later she got Tyrion with white hair like a Targaryen. Some other hints like Tyrion and Jon dream about Dragons, make it very obvious that Tyrion is also a Targaryen. In the show there is only Bran who can tell this. There are a few hints also in the show that Tyrion always wanted Dragons, etc., so it maybe will come up also when they need a King or Queen in episode 6 and this is the major twist DD talked about.

    If it turns out Tyrion is a Targ AND he takes the iron throne then I can die happy.

    #TyrionFortheThrone

  342. Mango:
    I read an article pointing out that there is no way that GOT could end in a way that makes the majority of fans happy. D&D cannot win, they never could.

    There are too many characters and too many fans supporting different characters.There is only one throne so that the majority of fans will likely be disappointed that their guy/girl does not win.

    In addition idea from another discussion, a lot of the fans that write on the internet sites are younger fans and HBO really provides for an older audience with stories about complicated adults. So the GOT end is likely to be unpopular among the netizens but maybe ok among the other TV viewers.

    You made a good point about the ending not being able to satisfy everyone. I know that the ending I want will likely not happen, so I will be unhappy in that regard. However, I will be satisfied with whatever ending D&D/GRRM planned, as long it makes reasonable sense and is portrayed well. At this point, after all the battles, etc., I hope for a positive outcome, no matter the ending.

    You are right that HBO content may appeal more to an older audience. In my case (age 23), the majority (if not all) of my friends do not watch GoT. They really don’t understand my interest, which can be frustrating at times, especially when I want to discuss it with them. The story appeals to me personally, and it relates very well to my majors (psychology and sociology), so I find it fascinating! I have not read the books yet, but I plan to once the show is over. 🙂

  343. King in the North East,

    It’s about INTENTIONALLY killing civilians/innocents.

    In S7E6 or S7E5, tyrion talked about destroying KL if Cersei attacked Dan y during their planned parlay. In S4E8 or 9, he seemed to want to cause the inhabitants of KL harm after the Shae reveal during his trial.

  344. Frank,

    There’s been no setup in the show. So it’s not gonna happen. If it was going to end with Tyrion winding up on the throne because it is revealed he is a Targ, they would have hung that gun by now. Further, it is utterly unprovable. It’s not like with Jon, where Howland Reed is still alive and knows the truth. Or even something like the show did with Sam discovering that Rhaegar somehow wed Lyanna.

  345. Frank:
    A Targrayen Queen not able to produce a heir is useless. If it turns out Danny is not pregnant she go back to Mereen, because Dario was defeated in Meeren and needs help. A king will be selected, a Targaryen king, Tyrion, Bran or the new Dorne Prince will tell them Aerys is his father and power hungry super smart always wannabe Queen will be Sansa, actually on papers they still should be married., while John will be warden of the north. Final picture will be Ghost getting a hug. While watching the last 2 episodes I need to bang my head often on the wall asking myself always why they don’t just hire the faceless men to kill Cersey. Starks honor the faceless god in their weirwood, so the clue is not that far away. Maybe in the show they changed Starks to the seven gods, I don’t remember, maybe it is the same.

    So, Tyrion is a Targaryen? With zero forshadowing and no mention of a possible romance between Aerys and Joanna at all, through 71 episodes, they are going to reveal this in the last 2 episodes. I am willing to bet against this one.

    I get that some people see hints of this in the books, but I really think we have met our quotas of secret Targaryens. It is like when people insist that Meera is really a Jon/Aegon’s twin sister.

    On another topic, someone (not sure who) mentioned something about not knowing Davos’ reaction to the Aegon news. I don’t think he knows, does he? According to Tyrion, only 8 people know. They would be Jon/Aegon, Dany, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Sam, Tyrion and Varys, right? I wonder what he will think when he does find out, though.

  346. kathy,

    If you think Robert was a good guy of the show and not in a sense a villain I think you missed the point. His whole rebellion was build on a lie as stated by Bran, he was just angry he didn’t get the woman he always wanted (even when he probably saw her just one time so I personally don’t think it was real love, more like he wanted that love).
    Maybe the rebellion was needed to end the Mad King. But Robert himself was not a hero in that story. Robert was a very egocentric guy, who always wanted more than he truly deserved.

    Che,

    Don’t forget one word she used that scares me “destiny”. Look at our history, not a single leader that used the world “destiny” were good leaders, they were tyrants all. And it make me think of a game I played that I will go in at the end of my reply.

    And as you stated she already made a calculated move, she didn’t go to speak with Cersei at the end to save the people. She went there to justify herself for killing those 10.000 people. I hope she get to her senses.

    The game I talked about was Assasins creed III, it was a DLC with an alternative storyline where George Washinton got corrupted and become a Tyrant that needed to be stopped, the game called “The tyrany of King Washinton”.
    One of the reason he could become a tyrant and got corrupted was one thing: In real life he had to fight hard (like Jon fights), his earns are real fought with sweat and blood on his side. He couldn’t use the violence that the Brits could use, meaning the only way to win was to fight with people wanting freedom.
    In this alternative version, Washinton found a weapon that granded him power that could easily defeat his enemy’s at a time he started to fight for the people (sounds like Dany and the dragons), that weapon gave him the notion that it was his destiny to save the people, and only he could save them from harm, he was the one that can grand people freedom. But those action only turned him into the worst tyrant and a different version than the real George washinton, it even made clear it’s not perse the intentions you have that gives you the course you’re walking, without that weapon he will be a hero, with the weapon a villain.

    Even the end quote sounded very familiar to what Dany stated a lot in the show. (I’m trying to find the quote itself but cannot find it.)

  347. krupke,

    Yeah, with regards to Tyrion, I don’t buy him being so concerned about innocent people dying in a war. But Tyrion in my mind is still the Tyrion from the books, who is a much darker shade of grey than show Tyrion.

  348. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    The theories on the ending are flying in. And yet, I bet none of us have come close to getting it mostly right. GRRM has said before that only a few fans have ever come close to guessing the ending while talking with him.

    So while we may think we know where the show is going thematically, particularly with Dany, the ending may still surprise us. Hopefully in a way that feels earned and poignant.

    The only quoted I have seen about that from GRRM, were in response to whether or not he would change anything due fans getting stuff right. He says that when in the early years he did go on message boards and early websites, but that he stopped pretty early on, so that it wouldn’t influence him. I know fans probably throw theories at him at signings or conventions, but I highly doubt that only a few people have figured it out. In fact, I would be willing to bet that people on this very site have figured it out or at least guessed correctly. So many theories have been thrown around at this point, that it would almost take aliens coming down and wiping everyone out (in the show) or something ridiculous like that for it to be that much of a shock to a vast majority of fans. Could be wrong though.

  349. Kosten:


    With Jon as king you’re once again going for the fantasy, for wish fulfillment. It’s been done to death.

    Jon’s literally been done to death.

    I love the character but he is literally a dead man walking. Why was he brought back? To fight the Long Night? Or to rule reluctantly as the King for 50+ unhappy years?

    Jeesh, I’m glad I’m not Jon Snow. Or if I was, I might want to exit ASAP.

  350. Snow Crystal,

    I agree. If I had to choose between the two, I would choose Daenerys as ruler over Jon.

    I love them both individually and as a couple, but don’t want either of them as a ruler. I tend to think one of my larger disappointments with this series will be the lack of imagination on the part of the characters/writers with regard to finding better methods of governance. And it’s not just regarding whether there should be a ruler on the IT. Not only should the throne go away, but also the concept of birthright rule. Yeah, it would be good if the IT were destroyed, but that still leaves hereditary rulers or more specifically, hereditary rulers with too much power in other parts of Westeros. It would have been interesting to me as a viewer if they’d explored the difference between power balances between those in power vs those who weren’t in the various “free cities”, specifically how how did common citizens fare in Braavos and was th e Braavosi model a comparable template for new rule in Westeros.

  351. Something interesting, the books are fire and Ice (like we all know), Fire = dragons and Ice = White walkers.

    It also has a connection of chemistry.
    Hot elements (fire) are moving very chaotic, how hotter something is the more chaotic it is. The dragons are a vary chaotic creature, their attacks are very chaotic and just blast things to death. Chaos is something that thrives with the dragons.
    Cold elements (Ice) are very organised for a better word, the elements are moving very slow. The structure is very high. Same with the White walkers. They are very slow, but their way is very organised, everything works together etc.

  352. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Au contrair. They got Tyrions fascination to Dragons and fire in the show. Additionally they invented the scene where Tyrion frees the Dragons and didn’t Tywin say as last words, you are not my son? I do not remember when they said Dragons can smell Targaryen blood, but they did mention it. If Tyrion turns out to be Aerys son, these points have been the hints.

  353. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I’ve given up on even speculating what will happen at King’s Landing. But I wonder if we will see something more up North beyond the wall before all is said and done. Just have a hard time believing that episode 4 is the last we will see of Tormund, Ghost, the wildings etc. Wouldn’t be surprised if we see evidence of the WW in some fashion, leaving the door open to a sequel or a Battlestar Galactica “all of this has happened before and will happen again” type of ending to the fire and ice saga. But who knows. The show could end with Arya and the Hound grabbing some bread and chicken from Hot Pie’s new inn.

  354. kevin1989,

    And as you stated she already made a calculated move, she didn’t go to speak with Cersei at the end to save the people. She went there to justify herself for killing those 10.000 people. I hope she get to her senses.

    She said she did not believe that Cersei would let missandei go/be reasonable. She still went though to demonstrate that she tried, and even had a moment of hope (along with greyworm).

  355. Frank:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Au contrair. They got Tyrionsfascination to Dragons and fire in the show. Additionally they invented the scene where Tyrion frees the Dragons and didn’t Tywin say as last words, you are not my son? I do not remember when they said Dragons can smell Targaryen blood, but they did mention it. If Tyrion turns out to be Aerys son, these points have been the hints.

    Yes, Tyrion was fascinated with dragons, but so was Arya. Also Tyrion never touched either dragon, the way Jon did. They just let him unchain them. I think the point of this was to show that the dragons weren’t mindless beasts. As soon as he unchained them, they walked away from him, showing no interest in him. With Jon, both Drogon (at Dragonstone) and Rhaegal (in the north) approached him, sniffed him and showed a lot of interest in him. Remember the dragons don’t harm everyone they come in contact with.

  356. JSchmeh,

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Yeah, I wouldn’t bet on nobody getting it right.

    When Martin said that, the ending was still pretty far away.

    Now, there’s 2 episodes left. Someone’s going to have more or less accurately figured out the ending.

    What I would bet on, is a lot of disappointed fans. I’d stake my life on it, even!

    Reading these comments, no matter what’s going to happen, half the people here are likely to be disappointed.

  357. Frank,

    I meant it is not provable to Westeros and the characters within the story. Bran is a tool for the audience, but don’t believe for a second that Howland Reed won’t be important in the books. There are ways to prove Jon’s identity beyond Bran. That’s not the case with Tyrion.

  358. krupke,

    Her conversation with tyrion and varys beforehand told something else. She stated clearly that she will talk to Cersei so the people could see that it is cerseis fault the sky will drop on them. You can’t do as if that scene never happen it happened. If was her choice she wouldn’t have had that conversation and just burn it down from the start meaning misandei would have died by dragonfire. It was tyrion and varys who let her to talk to Cersei first.

    King in the North East,

    For me it does not matter as long as its a great ending I can see people hating the ending if dany Jon or somebody else will not sit on the throne. If they go dany is shown to be the villain route I can see dany fans hating the show for that. For me it matters not. Hero villain who ends on the throne. For my part varys balls will end on the throne. As long as it’s portrait in a good way that feels the ending is earned.

  359. Kevin1989: For my part varys balls will end on the throne.

    So much for nobody correctly predicting the ending.

    But yes, me too.

    WHAT happens isn’t as nearly as important to me as HOW it happens.

  360. JSchmeh:

    On another topic, someone (not sure who) mentioned something about not knowing Davos’ reaction to the Aegon news. I don’t think he knows, does he? According to Tyrion, only 8 people know. They would be Jon/Aegon, Dany, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Sam, Tyrion and Varys, right? I wonder what he will think when he does find out, though.

    Well, now that Varys knows, we can expect this news to spread like wildfire (no pun intended). And since it seems likely that Daenerys has a traitor in her midst, Cersei will know by now.

  361. King in the North East,

    Agree. Unfortunately, a lot of people will be upset and unhappy. The funny part is there will be a ton of book fans, the people that call themselves “real fans” (and act superior to everyone else) who will say that D&D ruined George’s story and that there is “no way the books end like this.” Which is why I really hope the books do get finished. But then again a lot of those people will say that either the story really wasn’t that good to begin with, or that George changed his original glorious ending (an ending that just so happens to be their own fan fiction), because he sold out HBO or some other nonsense.

  362. JSchmeh: Yes, Tyrion was fascinated with dragons, but so was Arya. Also Tyrion never touched either dragon, the way Jon did. They just let him unchain them. I think the point of this was to show that the dragons weren’t mindless beasts. As soon as he unchained them, they walked away from him, showing no interest in him. With Jon, both Drogon (at Dragonstone) and Rhaegal (in the north) approached him, sniffed him and showed a lot of interest in him. Remember the dragons don’t harm everyone they come in contact with.

    I agree. And perhaps they were okay with him because they knew he was associated with their mother, so they would not attack him in this case.

  363. talvikorppi: I’m curious.

    If you haven’t watched the whole story, how can you pretend to know it well enough to even make predictions?

    Because often character things are revealed by other characters in a seemingly separate storyline.

    I’ve watched every episode several times over (and read the books and companion books several times over) and I don’t feel able to predict things with any certainty. Good guesses, yes, like Jaime dying, Cersei being the death of him (Greek tragedy type of thing) but otherwise… I just don’t know.

    I do not know myself. If I could predict the future then I would be rich. I am not big on predictions on GOT but I will occasionally venture my ideas based on tracking particular characters. From the predictions I see here, even persons that watch faithfully cannot predict to save their lives.

    I have not missed many or switched off many episodes. If I miss an episode (or part of it) I will read the newspaper recaps and reviews and the comments made. (I often do this during work meetings.)These are useful to follow everything.
    I rely on maybe 3 or 4 reviews regularly. Then I watch some of the clips on YouTube. Even when I watch the episode live, I will discover new things from reading critics. These discoveries are not only analytical but also on events in the episode. The last episode, I did not see that Tormund cried when Brienne went off. I was sitting there with my eyes wide open but failed to see that.

    It could be worse, I am a fan of The Americans, yet I have never seen a single episode. I read the reviews/recaps during meetings etc when I read GOT rehash.

  364. Kevin1989,

    It was tyrion and varys who let her to talk to Cersei first.

    She listened to them even though she felt very sure of what Cersei would do. And they were wrong. Again.

  365. King in the North East: WHAT happens isn’t as nearly as important to me as HOW it happens.

    totally agree! I remember saying this at the end of 7 – I could forgive much if how they do it makes sense given the rest of the story. A little concerned at this point if even that will happen!

  366. JSchmeh: So many theories have been thrown around at this point, that it would almost take aliens coming down and wiping everyone out (in the show) or something ridiculous like that for it to be that much of a shock to a vast majority of fans.

    Well, there are a few people (like Youtube’s Preston Jacobs) who think ASOIF (Martin’s novels) is actually a sci-fi tale disguised as a high fantasy (part of Martin’s “1000 Worlds” literary universe). So, who knows?

  367. Ugh I’m in Seoul for work and can’t watch this live!!! WHY!!!!!!
    I’ll be watching hours after it airs. Monday night seoul time.. Monday morning eastern time. Will have to stay off the net

  368. talvikorppi,

    And I am still hopeful on Jaime.
    He is at very high risk and it would be fine given his story. But I have a hunch that he lives on.

  369. King in the North East,

    True many great shows and movies are very boring when you look at what happened. But are great for how it happened. Same with lotr. Just throw a ring in a volcano. Boring. But how it was portrait made it that I can watch it over and over again.

    krupke,

    Im beginning to wonder if dany fans just ignore half of the scenes that are portrait because else they will lose faith in her. Che made very great comment with the exact sentences that she told. About killing 10000 innocence and that if cersei doesn’t comply it’s cerseis fault that she needs to put the sky on them. No it’s not cerseis fault. Cersei is not at fault for danys actions. Cersei is at fault with the killing of missandei and rheagal. As is dany the fault if she will kill 10.000 people by putting them to the torch by burning them alive. That’s not on cersei that’s on dany. She made that choice not cersei. Even after the ending of episode 4 dany can choose to not go that route.

    I still think and hope she will not go the killing route. She will choose a better option. I still have faith in dany. But if she will go the killing route. You can blame cersei all you want. Dany still has control over her own body and mind in which she can decide how to act. Dany will be at fault there.

  370. Dee Stark:
    Ugh I’m in Seoul for work and can’t watch this live!!! WHY!!!!!!
    I’ll be watching hours after it airs. Monday night seoul time.. Monday morning eastern time. Will have to stay off the net

    Enjoy Seoul! You can watch GOT later.

  371. If the ending winds up wasting the arcs of many characters and/or is nihilistic in nature, then will the series age well? I know the word ‘bittersweet’ was thrown around often, but I am leaning towards this being a very nihilistic end that makes you stop and wonder what most of the point was.

  372. I was thinking that it would be great if the DVD release had a “choose your own ending” option. The viewer could choose from a variety of characters to rule the Seven Kingdoms: Jon, Daenerys, Cersei, Tyrion, Gendry, Sansa, the Night King, and so on. There could even be a “destruction of the Iron Throne” selection. This way, everyone would be satisfied!

  373. orange,

    I know I’m not here for a nihilistic ending. Both Jon and Dany dying would come close to being too nihilistic. IMO. I am at least a little reassured that there will be some sweetness, as Peter used the word beautiful to describe the ending.

  374. orange,

    I agree! Season 8 could be the stormy-weekend or holiday turkey hangover bingewatch that LotR is. IF the ending is satisfying.

    If we get a coronation (Dany?) along with Frodo (Jon) voluntarily leaving for the Undying Lands (the North) after explaining his wounds from Weathertop (Castle Black) never really healed so he leaves the Red Book of Westmarch (Westeros) to Samwise (Samwell)…. would that be satisfying?

  375. Snow Crystal:
    I was thinking that it would be great if the DVD release had a “choose your own ending” option. The viewer could choose from a variety of characters to rule the Seven Kingdoms: Jon, Daenerys, Cersei, Tyrion, Gendry, Sansa, the Night King, and so on. There could even be a “destruction of the Iron Throne” selection. This way, everyone would be satisfied!

    Thankfully, as GRRM has said, “art is not democratic.”

    I just think it would be awful if tv shows and movies went that route. Just because an ending isn’t what you would want or choose, doesn’t mean that it isn’t good or entertaining.

  376. I predict a small Lannister army of 100 soldiers will sail to White Habor invade Winterfell, capture Sansa and Brienne of Tarth and bring both to King Landing as hostages…. Jaime will see this and go bat ballistic crazy…

    I think the hooded person with the Golden Company is Brienne of Tarth

  377. I have a random Q, when Dany says Jon is only the second man in her life she can say is true to his word, who was the first? Drogo never lied to her, neither did Barristan or Grey Worm. Neither did Tyrion or Varys that I know of. Nor did any of her bloodriders. Viserys wasn’t a liar. In fact, almost every man Dany has met has been true to their word. Jorah obviously deceived her at some point, as did XXD and HzL.

    This has started to bother me more than her “I was raped and defiled” speech (the only candidate for that is Drogo, who she adored, yet she spits out this line with incredible hatred).

    Writing problem?

  378. JSchmeh: Thankfully, as GRRM has said, “art is not democratic.”

    I just think it would be awful if tv shows and movies went that route. Just because an ending isn’t what you would want or choose, doesn’t mean that it isn’t good or entertaining.

    Obviously, there would be one main ending (whether people liked it or not). I just thought it would be kinda neat if the DVD release allowed options for viewers to watch the ending they want – you know, for fun and entertainment purposes…

    After all, this is only a show, which was created to entertain. No one needs to take it too seriously or personally, lol.

  379. Because GRRM said that the ending is the same as in the books, then I think Jon should survive. He already killed him once.

  380. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    orange,

    I know I’m not here for a nihilistic ending. Both Jon and Dany dying would come close to being too nihilistic. IMO. I am at least a little reassured that there will be some sweetness, as Peter used the word beautiful to describe the ending.

    I agree with you about the nihilistic ending. I also would not find that very satisfying, although I suppose some viewers would. Thanks for mentioning what Peter said – it gives me some hope.

  381. Dee Stark,

    I had wait several days for episode 2, due to travel and no access. This one is harder, and will require more diligence to stay offline. You can do this!

  382. Off the wall question: Why didn’t Brienne react strongly (positively or negatively) to the appointment of Gendry as Lord Baratheon of the Stormlands? It would affect her, wouldn’t it? It seems like she would be interested in just who Gendry was. (yeah, yeah…no time to explore minutia)

    orange,
    Tyrion Pimpslap,
    Now that the heroes of Winterfell thwarted the apocalypse, King’s Landing and the infamous iron throne shall have its Ragnarök! Perhaps Tyrion could survive unscathed, but my fear is that Jon and Dany will suffer greatly as each tries to do the right thing (as they see it). One or both may survive as Westeros recovers, but will be too damaged or unwilling to rule and will wander away. I’m expecting to be gut-wrenched regardless.

  383. JSchmeh:
    King in the North East,

    Agree. Unfortunately, a lot of people will be upset and unhappy. The funny part is there will be a ton of book fans, the people that call themselves “real fans” (and act superior to everyone else) who will say that D&D ruined George’s story and that there is “no way the books end like this.” Which is why I really hope the books do get finished. But then again a lot of those people will say that either the story really wasn’t that good to begin with, or that George changed his original glorious ending (an ending that just so happens to be their own fan fiction), because he sold out HBO or some other nonsense.

    Yes, very much this.

  384. firstone:
    I predict a small Lannister army of 100 soldiers will sail to White Habor invade Winterfell, capture Sansa and Brienne of Tarth and bring both to King Landing as hostages…. Jaime will see this and go bat ballistic crazy…

    I think the hooded person with the Golden Company is Brienne of Tarth

    I hope D&D dont go this route.

  385. ShameShameShame: I have a random Q, when Dany says Jon is only the second man in her life she can say is true to his word, who was the first?

    To me, Dany is desperate for control in these final stages and she (or her speechwriter) spat that out without thinking. You’re right, many have been honest with her but in recent days her advisers have failed her. As shown in the much-memed coffee-cup scene, she has achieved much but has lost more and is becoming more and more isolated. Jon’s revelation, the Dothraki and Unsullied depletion, two dragons, navy destruction, Jorah, and Missandei has ushered her into a manic, untethered state.

  386. Judging by the reactions of some of the more cynical fans (not here, of course) to the direction of the last couple of seasons (feck those Slytherins, amirite?) , tomorrow’s episode might well be entitled The Last of the Snarks.

    Because some people insist upon being dicks, or as they’re known by the vulgar in the vulgate, “Eurons.”

    End of rant, and almost end of series. ;_(

  387. Hodors Bastard,

    Yeah, the Gendry promotion was a missed opportunity, really, for what could have been a cool character moment. I think we’re meant to believe they filled in those information gaps off screen. Then again… Brienne has been a bit out of the loop when it comes to matters involving an aquintance’s personal identity.
    Brienne: Arya was with… a man.
    Sansa: Because I’m the smartest person Arya knows, I’m gonna ask you who that man was.
    Oh, whoops. I just stepped in the minutae.

  388. My favorite theory for the nonce before shuffling off to Dreamland — What if the true Mad Queen isn’t Daenerys Targaryen, but Sansa Stark?

  389. Iul:
    Here are some predictions:
    Varys will die.
    Cersei will die.
    Qyburn will die.
    The Mountain will die.
    Euron will die.
    Jaime will die.
    Dany will not die. If she does, she will be reborn.
    Anyone who followed Watchers on the Wall knows that

    I’m not sure Qyburn is going to die, he’s an intelligent guy, he probably figures King’s Landing is going to burn…he probably has an escape plan. The rest you mention will probably die in this episode, yes.
    Dany won’t die…in this episode.

  390. Catspaw Assassin:
    Judging by the reactions of some of the more cynical fans (not here, of course) to the direction of the last couple of seasons (feck those Slytherins, amirite?) , tomorrow’s episode might well be entitled The Last of the Snarks.

    Because some people insist upon being dicks, or as they’re known by the vulgar in the vulgate, “Eurons.”

    End of rant, and almost end of series. ;_(

    Dany fans are just salty because they fear the show is going the “Mad Queen” Dany route. That theory has been a source of controversy between supporters and detractors for almost 2 decades now?

  391. Mango,

    Haha I know! I’m enjoying it right now and plant to watch GOT from my hotel on Monday night local time after I’m done work and dinner for the day. So around 12 hours after initial airing

  392. ShameShameShame:
    I have a random Q, when Dany says Jon is only the second man in her life she can say is true to his word, who was the first?Drogo never lied to her, neither did Barristan or Grey Worm.Neither did Tyrion or Varys that I know of.Nor did any of her bloodriders. Viserys wasn’t a liar.In fact, almost every man Dany has met has been true to their word.Jorah obviously deceived her at some point, as did XXD and HzL.

    This has started to bother me more than her “I was raped and defiled” speech (the only candidate for that is Drogo, who she adored, yet she spits out this line with incredible hatred).

    Writing problem?

    Dany was raped and defiled. Just because she went on to fall in love with Drogo doesn’t negate the fact that she was raped. She was crying and repeatedly saying no. That experience will always be with her and will still be shaping her actions and reactions.

    The love she felt for Drogo is not entirely healthy. She started off being sold to him and raped by him and in a few successive episodes, she seemed to totally fall in love with him, even though he stands for everything she now fights – enslaving and mistreating people. I find Dany falling in love with Drogo one of the hardest parts of this show to believe truthfully.

  393. Che,

    Im a book reader who loves what the show has done, but this whole section drove me crazy. In the books, she is not raped, and I fear that the only reason they added it in the show was for HBO to pick it up. It was so unnecessary to her character and story. They did the same think to Cersei and Jaime; in the book that scene at Joffreys casket was consensual.

  394. ash,

    I’m a book reader too and the way George writes 13-year-old Dany in that scene is one of the most unrealistic (and disturbing) scenes in the whole series – had he made Dany older, it might have worked, but she was a child. It was disturbing, cliched and didn’t work because of her age.

  395. Che,

    “I think she will pull it back and not descend into the darkness, but if she does go through with this, if she does burn innocent people, then no amount of whataboutery can excuse the fact that she has become the same type of tyrant that she believes Cersei to be.”

    Somehow, it reminds me of the US/allies H-bombing Japan to end WW2. Did History remember “They are the heroes for defeating Hitler and end the war with a lower toll than if they hadn’t bombed civilians” or “By dreadfully killing all these civilians, they became the same kind of villains they believed the ennemy to be” ?
    I always felt ASOIF and GoT sets in a fantasy world moral dilemmas that occur in real world. As questions, due to the many characters, rather than as answers. That’s why, IMO, ending it is so hard: ends are kind of answers.

  396. AnnOther,

    The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is an interesting parallel. The only thing that sticks out to me is that in that instance Japan was the original aggressor. In this instance Dany is the original aggressor, she is the one looking to conquer.

  397. Ser Whatever,

    “As in the example of Arya surprise-killing the NK, while I’m also 100% pleased she did it, it fell a bit flat at the time I saw it. It’s only later that I thought how it all made sense, her training making her the perfect person for the job. But I would have loved to see cutaways of her making her way to the NK, […] That would have given such weight to it, years of training and tough knocks preparing her for this moment. “

    Same for me, and I completely agree with your Hitchcock quote. Somehow, editing it so that Jon and Arya were trying, in parallel, to get to the NK from different angles and with different styles (sword fighting vs stealthing, or a mixture of stealthing/fighting for Arya) and both (seemingly) thwarted, would have made it more powerful for me. Would have reminded us killing the NK was the plan (cf war council). Would have enhanced the necessary “team effort”. Would have reminded us how Jon and Arya were close siblings, though they took different roads. Would have added tension (will one of them get there in time ?) and could still have us think it was hopeless for a while, keeping the surprise of Arya making it eventually for the last moment. Could also have been a better counterpart to the library scene (I didn’t like it at the moment it happened, it felt contrived and odd for me, I could only think afterwards “oh, they wanted to show how Arya can be afraid/calm/silent to prepare the final surprise).

  398. AnnOther,

    I’m not sure this comparison holds much weight due to the vastly different natures of the conflict and the players involved.

    Also, I’m not sure where you are from, but where I am from, the Americans who dropped the A-bombs and slaughtered all those civilians are not seen as heroes who saved the world. It is, quite rightly, seen as a horrific act that went too far and inspires more conversations akin to – Can the ends truly justify the means? – than – Those innocent civilians were a justifiable cost to helping end the war.

    The fact of the matter is that no one in Westeros has single-handedly wiped out 10,000 people using a weapon of mass destruction yet. Aerys tried to surpass this with his “burn them all” plan, but it was stopped. Cersei most likely killed a hell of a lot of people and probably came close to that number when she wild fired the sept, but she is seen as a tyrannical monster. Scores more have obviously died as a result of war – through the lawlessness affecting the small folk (as we have seen in the show and more so in the books), famines from the crops burning etc., but no one has yet purposefully killed scores of civilians as an act of war (or an acceptable consequence of war); not like World War II, which had already killed scores of civilians in horrific ways through bombing cities, enslaving and killing innocent people in concentration camps, seizing cities/countries leading to scores of civilian deaths. We haven’t seen that scale of civilian destruction in this story yet. There have been plenty of crimes against the small folk, but nothing that huge and truthfully, since the war of the five kings has ceased, we haven’t seen the same impact on the small folk and can imagine things would be calming down a bit. If Dany burns through thousands of civilians to get to Cersei, that is monstrous in the context of this conflict and it will be seen as such by the people of Westeros.

  399. Che,

    “I think Tyrion would be a very good choice (and after Jon, I feel he would be best at the job). However, what I struggle to see is who would make him King and how it wouldn’t lead to another civil war. […]”

    Same for me. And Jon ruling with Tyrion as his hand would make some sort of Targaryen / Stark / Lannister alliance (3 out of the 4 families in the credit image; it lacks Baratheon, but, well, Robert’s war relied on an initial lie about Lyanna & Rhaegar a,d started a big mess of ensuing wars…). That would sound reasonable — alliance vs the vicious circle of vengeance, which is Jon’s stance since his friends made him stay in the NW instead of going fight with Robb – and would be a way of breaking at least one wheel (vengeance). And I would love it, in a way (I loved the Tyrion/Jon interactions in the early seasons). But I still wonder whether GoT/ASOIF is about reasonable solutions prevailing, and how Dany would fit in the picture.
    Well, we’ll see! I am actually open to many endings, as long as it makes sense one way or other — and I think it will (IMO, there are many ways to make sense).

  400. Frank,

    I could see the “Tyrion is a secret Targaryen” thing happen in the books, but not in the show. No setup, no time left. And even in the books it would be too much after Jon’s big reveal and the whole fAegon subplot. There’s only so many “Aha, this character is in fact the secret son of so-and-so, brought up by wolves/gypsies, you will know him by a secret birthmark and a golden medallion his weeping mother put around his neck before she was forced to abandon him” twists you can have before you’re in seriously kitschy, melodramatic territory.

  401. JSchmeh,

    You are right, the comparison was only about “moral problems in times of war”, and “what posterity remembers as important”, and it cannot directly apply to Westeros of course. Though I’m not sure whether in the story it is very clear who is the primary agressor: Cersei conquered the crown in her own ways, tearing papers and choosing violence, just as Daenerys is conquering it (back in her opinion, though this was problematic from the start, and has become even more problematic) 😉

  402. I can’t believe that it’s almost over now. GOT has been a big part of my adult life (i started the first season when i was 21) and even though i barely comment here i’ m a lurker since season 2 and reading the speculations ,theories and discussions, waiting for the trailers and bts videos and then taking them apart, bit by bit was a big part of my life in the last nine years . This could propably be the last time we all do this. *sniff*

  403. King in the North East: Kevin

    Oh yes I meant that. Typo.

    JSchmeh: Kevin

    Funny thing is Netflix has experimented with that, that you chose if somebody would die in a certain moment or live, and how the ending should be with multiple choice options. People hated it, the movie was boring how it ended, then they did the same with the version they had in mind where people died more and people liked it more. People don’t know what they want, if people had the choice in the past, Ned would have lived, Cat and Robb would have lived etc, but the story would have boring.

  404. Che,

    “Also, I’m not sure where you are from, but where I am from, […]”

    I’m from France (with a Spanish ascent, so heritage from both sides of WW2!), and here (almost) every history book ponders the two , ie, it was an horrible war act, that ended WW2, which was an horrible war; and they try to assess to what extent the argument given for it (it made the war shorter and then with less casualties than if it hadn’t be used) can be admitted (of course, no one can tell, there’s no parallel world), or whether it was just a way for the US to prevent USSR from gaining more strength in the remaining time, etc.
    Maybe I worded my post badly. I was not advocating one vision over the other one. Just saying it illustrated an important moral and philosophical dilemma, which was not an abstract one, and that this is interesting (there are echoes to many wars in the books/show, all over History, including modern wars, like WW1, WW2, all kind of colonization wars, civil wars…, in a much richer way than fantasy generally does).
    And yes, you are right, there has not been deliberate mass-killing of civilians yet in the story, and the show only allusively shows how dreadful these years for the small folk (that’s much more developped in the books: though I read them years ago, I retained the impression than the “Harrenhal period”/ the Lannister rule was sheer dreadful anarchy, torture and suffering for the people).

  405. Catspaw Assassin:
    My favorite theory for the nonce before shuffling off to Dreamland — What if the true Mad Queen isn’t Daenerys Targaryen, but Sansa Stark?

    Sansa stark is too calculated for that, and her evilness if she will show that will not be emotional of nature, she has control over it, that the opposite of Mad, mad stated the evilness is fueled with emotion.

    If Sansa goes evil, it’s more a LF kind of Evil, somebody who can calculate everything into place as it should (for her or her family depends why she does it).

    Che,

    Stockholm Syndrome.

    And I think one of the reasons why Dany loved Drogo was that Drogo kept her save from Viserys, and later went to war for her, showing her power that she will share, she doesn’t have to the afraid one anymore, she will be the one that people are afraid of and admire.

    And I find it strange that Dany was inspired when Drogo spoke of raping, murdering making slaves of Westerosi people, and Dany didn’t looked shocked, she looked at him with awe.
    Later on Dany-fans stated (which I found strange), yes but Dany would have change Drogo’s mind. that means 2 things: dany is the all-shifting person that can change a person’s mind how to live. And that she shouldn’t even have to change his mind. She didn’t try to change the minds of the masters for slavery, but Drogo she could change for that same thing?

  406. Inga:
    Netheb
    , That’s a valid point, but my point was more about how to defeat a tyrant without fire and blood? […] Tyrants don’t care about how many people they have to kill; they start withdrawing and flee only, when their shitty personal lives are threatened with fire and blood. In other words, ending a tyrany requires not only readiness to die, but also readiness to kill. And “violence is not a solution” is a delusional crap.

    Damn, for a moment I thought you were talking about Dnerys here. lol.
    I agree that at some point, violence is unfortunately inevitable. However, the clever and just thing to do would be to ensure that there is as little civilian casualties as possible. And burning the Red Keep is definitely not ensuring that. Smuggling someone in there would be best – where is Arya when we need her?

    Inga: Jon can handle that: Ygritte shot him with three arrows. In general, Jon has been deeling with female hysterya for his entire life, and he knows how to pat angry dragons.

    Quoting this because of the annoying mention of “female hysteria” which is sexist af. An angry man is just angry. But an angry woman is just hysterical, right? Someone crazy, bad-tempered, mawkish, only good for complaining and to be locked away?

    There’s no such thing as female hysteria, it’s just a degrading idea. Or am I being hysterical too?

  407. Cercei was forced into marriage. (Sound familiar?)
    Cercei was beaten and humiliated. (Sound familiar?)
    Cercei lost her children. (Sound familiar?)

    Someone remind me why we’re rooting for Daenerys?

    It seems that so many viewers, both here and elsewhere, think that Dany is completely justified for wanting to kill everyone that stands in her way because she’s had it rough. But then surely, so does Cercei.

    I’m not going to say that Cercei is a better person overall, but their motivations for doing or wanting to do horrible things are identical.

    Cercei arguably lost much more than Daenerys. (Her ACTUAL CHILDREN, rather than the suggorate pet lizards she’s chosen to call her children)

    Okay, Dany may not end up following through, but that doesn’t excuse half the fandom for saying she’s justified if she did.

  408. Netheb: Or am I being hysterical too?

    Yes.

    Typical hysterical female.

    😅

    But seriously, people do get hysterical. And yeah, it’s unfair (and ridiculous) to say that’s only true of women.

    It’s also just not right, like you say, to call an angry woman hysterical but an angry man just angry. Being angry and being hysterical are still two wildly different things.

  409. I am impressed with the faces of the extras they cast to play Golden Company foot.
    Someone had a eye for idealized mercenaries.

  410. Netheb,

    Lol no you’re not. I blame the Ancient Greeks. Bunch of sexists dudes amongst which Hippocrates thought the uterus/womb (hystero) was to blame for the condition and this we get the “(female) hysteria”. Unfortunately many still use it with that connotation. Probably a force of habit.

    Hysterical man though is still hysterical, even without a uterus.

  411. Just occurred to me. Book spoiler and speculation.

    Sandor calling Arya a cold little biatch parallels the line in the books from Jon “You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

    It sounded to me like winter was not quite over in the North, but is over in the South, so I’m holding out hope this was just a stinky herring. IMO the only way we’ll see an “Arya” death is if she switches faces on a corpse and plants Needle. Her final FM lesson, becoming no one.

  412. King in the North East,
    TormundsWoman,

    The thing is, when people talk about hysteria it’s pretty much all the time a female thing 😉 as if women couldn’t be taken seriously because they have a uterus. I don’t really consider myself a feminist but I couldn’t let that kind of bs pass lol.

  413. Inga:
    Sansa would be the prime candidate to provoke Dany’s wrath, but Jon’s wrath might be even more dreadful. To him Sansa has always been that self-entitled and obusive sister; he sought her recognition and he looked after her out of duty, but she has always been annoying as hell.
    So, if Sansa forces Jon to choose (and she does), the choice is obviuos: both his duty and his heart lies with aunt. And, although I don’t think that Jon could make himself harm Sansa physically, he might see punishing her as his personal duty.

    I’m not sure if I should laugh or facepalm?

    It’s true that Jon and Sansa were far from close as children. I’m not excusing her but we know that Sansa’s treatment of him was in fact her copying Catelyn’s behaviour towards Jon.
    Anyway. Look again at their reunion in s6. I honestly don’t think there were many moments as touching and tender as that one.
    Maybe Sansa is annoying to you, but since their reunion she and Jon are getting along quite well overall, and despite her questioning his decisions in s7 (but Jon’s intelligent enough not to see that as a provocation, unlike a certain someone) he trusted and esteemed her enough to leave the North in her “good hands”.

    As for the R+L=J reveal, Dany told Jon if he kept quiet they could be together, yet he spilled the truth, which means he doesn’t really want to be with her. He chose his family. And he sure as hell isn’t going to punish her, enough if he’s unhappy with Tyrion and Varys being in on his identity.
    Better yet, by choosing to tell both Sansa and Arya–as opposed to only Arya– Jon chose Sansa over Dany. Dnerys explicitly didn’t want Sansa in particular to know and Jon told her anyway. Deep down he must’ve know her scheming was a possibility, right?

  414. ash: Im a book reader who loves what the show has done, but this whole section drove me crazy. In the books, she is not raped, and I fear that the only reason they added it in the show was for HBO to pick it up. It was so unnecessary to her character and story. They did the same think to Cersei and Jaime; in the book that scene at Joffreys casket was consensual.

    Ehhhhh both these scenes in the book were not really “consensual” if you understand what rape by coersion means.

    Dany has no choice but to have sex with Drogo. Also, she is 13 years old. A 13 year old eventually deciding she might as well try to enjoy her marital rape is pretty sketch.

    Cersei said no verbally, multiple times, and Jaime just kept insisting and pushing, physically and with words. She eventually gave up fighting and gave in. We only got his PoV so we have no idea how angry/hurt she was. She certainly was not at all happy with him afterwards, turns away in disgust, and calls him a reckless fool. Other than Bran, this is Jaime’s morally lowest moment easily. No means no. No one should apologize for this in either media.

  415. AnnOther,

    I would have preferred just one quick shot of Arya running through part of Winterfell and spotting a raven ahead, indicating that Bran may have been doing some guiding. But not an extensive intercutting. The elation that turned to fear and back to elation of the Arya surprise, though, was worth it. The “how” of her action is less important and can easily be explained away by…the previous 7 seasons of Arya’s training.

  416. King in the North East,

    Are you aware that Hyster- etymologically refers to “Uterus”. So “Hysterical” is a specifically misogynistic phrase. It was invented by male psychoanalysts (freud, etc) to describe what they saw as women going crazy for “biological” reasons. It’s inappropriate to use, basically ever, since it implies that having a uterus (being female) makes people crazy. Try another word.

  417. QueenofThrones,

    … he was actually agreeing with me when I picked up on Inga who’s the (only) one talking about “female hysteria” 🙂 (check the comments above his)

  418. Che,

    Actually, she didn’t seem to have to much emotional attachment to him in season 2, e.g. see her reactions to her handmaidens. I think she was mainly in love with his power (and her partial power over him), and she also found out he was quite gentle (with her) once they got to know each other better.

    The someone taller (completely trusts) could also mean Jorah, the way I heard it. Putting the joke aside, she clearly avoided to answer “my husband”.

  419. QueenofThrones,

    Then don’t miss out on the movie “Hysteria” (2011) starring Maggie Gyllenhaal, Hugh Dancy, Felicity Jones, Rupert Everett, and the High Sparrow.

  420. QueenofThrones,

    That’s interesting! It’s even connected to “hysteresis”, though it seems unclear whether that comes from “up/behind” or “deficient”. Those ancient Greeks seem a bunch of misogynic people…

    Btw, I am totally okay using another word to decouple the meaning from its connotation, but we should also remember the mistakes from the past. Any suggestions for a non-native speaker?

    And btw, with respect to terminology: e.g. when Maisie and Sophie comment that Jon Snow this season is following a typically male P organ, such kind of word choice is also negative towards men. Women are just as well capable to follow their C organ, but somehow nobody says that.

  421. QueenofThrones: Are you aware that Hyster- etymologically refers to “Uterus”. So “Hysterical” is a specifically misogynistic phrase.

    Well, if we’re going to be semantically correct, then no.

    Misogynistic means “women-hating”. A phrase or a word can’t, by itself, hate women.

    So there’s no such thing as a “misogynistic phrase”. You can’t assign intent to a word.

    While a word may have questionable origins, that’s true of tens of thousands of words. I mean, “blockbuster” originally referred to a bomb dropped during a war.

    Are we going to get rid of every word that came from dubious origins? We’d have to eliminate much of our language.

    And need I remind you there’s a recently coined term called “mansplaining”?

    😑

  422. King in the North East:
    Cercei was forced into marriage. (Sound familiar?)
    Cercei was beaten and humiliated. (Sound familiar?)
    Cercei lost her children. (Sound familiar?)

    Someone remind me why we’re rooting for Daenerys?

    It seems that so many viewers, both here and elsewhere, think that Dany is completely justified for wanting to kill everyone that stands in her way because she’s had it rough. But then surely, so does Cercei.

    I’m not going to say that Cercei is a better person overall, but their motivations for doing or wanting to do horrible things are identical.

    Cercei arguably lost much more than Daenerys. (Her ACTUAL CHILDREN, rather than the suggorate pet lizards she’s chosen to call her children)

    Okay, Dany may not end up following through, but that doesn’t excuse half the fandom for saying she’s justified if she did.

    Lots to agree with here.

  423. QueenofThrones,

    Tell the original poster that, it was misspelled as “female hysterya” so you can take a look for that phrase to see who first brought it up as a major character motivation.

    ETA I see others already corrected

  424. QueenofThrones,

    No means no. No one should apologize for this in either media.

    No, you are right. Its been awhile since I read the books, so perhaps I am remembering differently. Yes about the age – and yes, it was cohersion.

    I have always wondered why would Martin make all the starks children? I get that in the middle ages kids matured earlier. But they were still kids, and what we know about their brains is that it takes a long time for them to come to adult decision making skills (heck some of us adults still lack them) Would it have been different if he made them all 18? Would what they all went through for 8 seasons be different? It would be a different story in many ways, but maybe not. Im glad the show aged them all up, but why were they so young originally, going through such horror and trauma?

    The someone taller (completely trusts) could also mean Jorah, the way I heard it. Putting the joke aside, she clearly avoided to answer “my husband”.

    heh, true,dat

  425. Netheb,

    I think it shows Jon didn’t like Daenerys her threat, although he might have kept silent if his sisters hadn’t been so suspicious. To me it seems they claim “you follow her because you love her” so he tells them they are all family so they will accept her better. I don’t know if he expected her to tell. Clever Jon should have realized.

    Btw, it would have been easy to circumvent this. Sansa says she can’t swear if she doesn’t know what it’s
    about. Jon says vaguely “because we are family… it’s about my mother”. Sansa thinks and guesses R&L (she saw the dragon and heard Littlefinger). Bonus, we get that she’s clever. And she didn’t swear it then, not even unbelievably.

    Sansa looked a bit jealous to Tyrion on the political level (Why her?) But if Jon is forced to choose, he will choose the side of the family that’s most likely to leave the other side in peace, not the side that forces him.

  426. Che:
    AnnOther,

    I’m not sure this comparison holds much weight due to the vastly different natures of the conflict and the players involved.

    Also, I’m not sure where you are from, but where I am from, the Americans who dropped the A-bombs and slaughtered all those civilians are not seen as heroes who saved the world. It is, quite rightly, seen as a horrific act that went too far and inspires more conversations akin to – Can the ends truly justify the means? – than – Those innocent civilians were a justifiable cost to helping end the war.

    The fact of the matter is that no one in Westeros has single-handedly wiped out 10,000 people using a weapon of mass destruction yet. Aerys tried to surpass this with his “burn them all” plan, but it was stopped. Cersei most likely killed a hell of a lot of people and probably came close to that number when she wild fired the sept, but she is seen as a tyrannical monster. Scores more have obviously died as a result of war – through the lawlessness affecting the small folk (as we have seen in the show and more so in the books), famines from the crops burning etc., but no one has yet purposefully killed scores of civilians as an act of war (or an acceptable consequence of war); not like World War II, which had already killed scores of civilians in horrific ways through bombing cities, enslaving and killing innocent people in concentration camps, seizing cities/countries leading to scores of civilian deaths. We haven’t seen that scale of civilian destruction in this story yet. There have been plenty of crimes against the small folk, but nothing that huge and truthfully, since the war of the five kings has ceased, we haven’t seen the same impact on the small folk and can imagine things would be calming down a bit. If Dany burns through thousands of civilians to get to Cersei, that is monstrous in the context of this conflict and it will be seen as such by the people of Westeros.

    Lots to agree with here about the use of weapons of mass destruction.

    Deaenryrs has been the aggressor carrying weapons of mass destruction. She has started a war to Westeros to support her claim. She was never right. Never. Never.

    Worse her ancestors did the same. It was not right – it was the use of weapons of mass destruction against a population that did not attack you. No, No, No.

    One the real-life issue: The use of the bomb against Japan was unconscionable. The end of the global war was already inevitable as the USSR’s army and winter had broken Hitler. All that was needed was moping of the remaining skirmishes. The end of the war was in clear sight. The use of H-bomb in the minor war arena was about demonstrating US strength and the intent to lead the world after the war was ended. It was about future geopolitics and the USSR vs USA. It was served as revenge against Japan’ s attack at Pearl Harbor and also warning about overwhelming response if US is ever attacked. However, history is written by the victors and the US (that has done an enormous amount of good in the world) has not had to face its truths.

  427. Could the hooded figure be Aegon IV? Who has survived and is now called Griff – coming to help Danny? He did get the Golden company! Could be a real plot switch on Cersei!
    “In A Dance with Dragons, Varys claims to have switched Aegon with another, lowborn infant (known as the “Pisswater prince”) and smuggled Aegon out of King’s Landing prior to the capital’s fall. During his exile in Essos, Tyrion Lannister (under the alias Hugor Hill) meets Young Griff, a well-trained teenage boy endorsed by Varys’s associate Illyrio Mopatis, who claims to be the surviving Aegon and is under the guardianship of Rhaegar’s close friend Jon Connington (under alias of Griff). Young Griff/Aegon is to be used by Varys and Illyrio as a puppet king. Young Griff intends to travel to Slaver’s Bay to visit Daenerys Targaryen and propose marriages, but Tyrion provokes him during a cyvasse game and convinces him to abandon the proposal and independently attack Westeros. Later, Young Griff announces himself as Aegon and successfully persuades the Golden Company into supporting his invasion, landing his army in the Stormlands and capture several castles, and plans to lay siege to the Baratheon seat of Storm’s End.”

  428. Frokkie,

    That’s too late now to introduce him without it feeling like a deus ex machina. Varys on the show will support Jon Snow’s claim.

    Btw, it’s Aegon VI (not IV).
    Aegon V (Egg) was Maester Aemon’s younger brother.

  429. I know there has been a lot of discussion about Sansa telling Tyrion Jon’s secret. I do think Sansa was trying to protect Jon as she knows Tyrion isn’t a man to act without thought.

    Having said that, I was rather surprised Tyrion blurted it out to Varys. A man with a network of spies (I’m sure he still has them) who has always used information to his advantage. Telling Varys seems to be what is now starting the idea of a potential following for Jon. If only Tyrion knew, would the knowledge be more or less likely to spread?

  430. Frokkie,

    Too late for the show to do that IMO, though it would be fun. I’d love the true Aegon to still be alive.

    But since the show named Jon “Aegon” I doubt the true Aegon is still in play. I seriously doubt the possible RLJ version of Jon in the book would be named Aegon.

    If there are any pro-Dany armies arriving in the nick of time, they’ll be Daario and the Second Sons, and Dorne/The Reach who still despise Cersei for wiping out their lords and noble houses.

  431. AnnOther:
    Che,

    “I think Tyrion would be a very good choice (and after Jon, I feel he would be best at the job). However, what I struggle to see is who would make him King and how it wouldn’t lead to another civil war. […]”

    Same for me. And Jon ruling with Tyrion as his hand would make some sort of Targaryen / Stark / Lannister alliance (3 out of the 4 families in the credit image; it lacks Baratheon, but, well, Robert’s war relied on an initial lie about Lyanna & Rhaegar a,d started a big mess of ensuing wars…). That would sound reasonable — alliance vs the vicious circle of vengeance, which is Jon’s stance since his friends made him stay in the NW instead of going fight with Robb –and would be a way of breaking at least one wheel (vengeance). And I would love it, in a way (I loved the Tyrion/Jon interactions in the early seasons). But I still wonder whether GoT/ASOIF is about reasonable solutions prevailing, and how Dany would fit in the picture.
    Well, we’ll see! I am actually open to many endings, as long as it makes sense one way or other — and I think it will (IMO, there are many ways to make sense).

    Rulers: Jaime. Or undead Jon if they take the story in that direction. Tyrion could be involved as Hand to either but he would be better with his brother.

    Why: Jaime and Tyrion are Cersei’s heirs. Jon is heir if the Targaryen line is re-established.

    There is a reason Jaime and Jon were required to meet at the beginning of the story. Jon has always been concerned with threats beyond the wall. Jaime has addressed threats within the population. Both are protectors within the different arena. Both have been in bed with absolute witches – Daenerys and Cersei.

    Jaime understands running the country. Undead Jon is a good guy but seems to be passive and emotionally connected to the north. He barely knows Westeros outside of the north.

    Tyrion/Sansa/Jaime/Brienne/Jon – that is enough Targ/Stark/Lannister alliance. Brienne has quite a bit of Targ blood as well, right?

    (Well, let me see if Jaime survives the episode tonight! He is off from WF with a death wish! He is at such a high risk! Oye! Dude, you shoulda stayed in bed with SerB.)

  432. Mango,

    Jaime won’t be a bad ruler I think, but people will always think of him as the Kingslayer and he is also associated with his sister Cersei. Don’t know if everyone knows Joffrey was his son. But he also betrayed King Robert by doing so. That’s not a really good track record. I know present Jaime is better, but it’s only Brienne who really believes in him.

  433. Mango,

    Agreed. As I said in another reply (I don’t remember to whom — so many comments!), my point was not to say the situations were exactly comparable (besides, the point of such fiction is not to replicate real life), but that it echoes (in its own context) real world dilemmas when it comes to war. And I find it interesting to have different characters taking different stances on these questions. Actually in the show, “Dany is the agressor” is Cersei’s point of view and what she tells her lords and smallfolk (the dangerous foreign invader with savages), and it is partly true. I say “partly”, because Dany is not foreign and because Cersei is another “agressor” (she killed Robert, put her illegitimate sons on the throne by tearing a paper — which, ironically, was slightly a fake since Ned changed the wording — , without mass destruction weapons. Not even elephants!).
    On “All that was needed was moping of the remaining skirmishes. “: historians disagree about which amount of deaths that would have implied (but as I said in another post: there’s no parallel world so it’s hard to know. The US official argument after the war was: “many”, esp. many US soldiers). But dealing with WW2 would take (and already takes) books, and my intent was not to start a discussion on “real world’ !

  434. AnnOther:
    Ser Whatever,

    “As in the example of Arya surprise-killing the NK, while I’m also 100% pleased she did it, it fell a bit flat at the time I saw it. It’s only later that I thought how it all made sense, her training making her the perfect person for the job. But I would have loved to see cutaways of her making her way to the NK, […]That would have given such weight to it, years of training and tough knocks preparing her for this moment. “

    Same for me, and I completely agree with your Hitchcock quote. Somehow, editing it so that Jon and Arya were trying, in parallel, to get to the NK from different angles and with different styles (sword fighting vs stealthing, or a mixture of stealthing/fighting for Arya) and both (seemingly) thwarted, would have made it more powerful for me. Would have reminded us killing the NK was the plan (cf war council). Would have enhanced the necessary “team effort”. Would have reminded us how Jon and Arya were close siblings, though they took different roads. Would have added tension (will one of them get there in time ?) and could still have us think it was hopeless for a while, keeping the surprise of Arya making it eventually for the last moment. Could also have been a better counterpart to the library scene (I didn’t like it at the moment it happened, it felt contrived and odd for me, I could only think afterwards “oh, they wanted to show how Arya can be afraid/calm/silent to prepare the final surprise).

    This was exactly what I’ve talked about with several people. I thought her climbing up on the roofs of Winterfell ala Bran as well as her Braavos experience while juxtaposed with Jon’s efforts to get past Viserion would have given us the same end with more depth as well.
    I think all the cut off conversations this season and last will culminate in a few more misdirect/gotcha moments as well, which is stylistically different from previous seasons-so I think that’s why we’re noticing.

    ash:
    QueenofThrones,

    No, you are right.Its been awhile since I read the books, so perhaps I am remembering differently. Yes about the age – and yes, it was cohersion.

    I have always wondered why would Martin make all the starks children?

    He was planning a five year time jump originally I believe. And I think he started with Tower of Joy/Robert’s Rebellion time period and worked back as far as the ages of the kids. Jon’s birth etc.

  435. My own predictions for this episode.
    – Euron will be killed by Dragon fire.
    – Sandor will kill his brother Gregor Clegane but get’s hurt in doing so and Arya gives him the gift of mercy.
    – Jaime will try to stop Cersei, but maybe he’ll do that in the beginning of episode 6 (to keep Lena Headey around a little longer, she hasn’t been in many episodes this season).
    – Kingslanding and the Iron Throne will burn, I only don’t know if it will be dragonfire or wildfire. I don’t think Cersei will blow up the Red keep like she did with the Sept of Baelor, that would be too repetitive. But maybe someone else does is accidentally, could be Dany but it also could be Grey Worm who is now mad with grief.
    – Varys will be killed for betraying Dany, don’t know if Dany will burn him or Kinvara.

    – The problems with Dany’s claim will be solved in episode 6.

  436. Mango: Rulers:Jaime. Or undead Jon if they take the story in that direction. Tyrion could be involved as Hand to either but he would be better with his brother.

    Why:Jaime and Tyrion are Cersei’s heirs. Jon is heir if the Targaryen line is re-established.

    There is a reason Jaime and Jon were required to meet at the beginning of the story. Jon has always been concerned with threats beyond the wall. Jaime has addressed threats within the population. Both are protectors within the different arena. Both have been in bed with absolute witches – Daenerys and Cersei.

    Jaime understands running the country. Undead Jon is a good guy but seems to be passive and emotionally connected to the north. He barely knows Westeros outside of the north.

    Tyrion/Sansa/Jaime/Brienne/Jon – that is enough Targ/Stark/Lannister alliance. Brienne has quite a bit of Targ blood as well, right?

    (Well, let me see if Jaime survives the episode tonight! He is off from WF with a death wish! He is at such a high risk! Oye! Dude, you shoulda stayed in bed with SerB.)

    That would also make some (another) sense for me, so I would be happy with it too (and I love Jaime! Though I’m not sure he would be such a good ruler — rather too suggestible). We’ll see (not tonight for me, so I will soon disconnect computer and phone…).

  437. King in the North East,

    Look, use whatever words you want but If a member of a group asks you to consider not using word because it has -ist origins, then i believe it is worth considering their viewpoint. Hysterical originates from a misogynist world view = it is misogynistic. Consider race – you know there are words that are definitionally racist and you probably won’t use them. Why is sex any different?

    Actually Dan Savage has a good strategy – he often refers to men being unreasonable/overly emotional as “testerical” for balance of all the men calling women Hysterical. 😀

    And mansplaining is totally a thing that happens. It specifically refers to the widespread phenomenon of men explaining women’s experiences to them as if they know better. Seems apt to me.

  438. Snow Crystal,

    You are right that HBO content may appeal more to an older audience. In my case (age 23), the majority (if not all) of my friends do not watch GoT.

    What country do you live in? GoT is the most popular show in the world including among young people.

  439. Ghostgirl,

    I agree. It’s during her talk with Tyrion that Sansa realized how fearful everybody is of Dænerys. That’s why she told him about Jon’s identity. Jon is stuck with his promise to D and thankfully Sansa tries find a way out of it for him.
    I’m also glad Tyrion told Varys but I’m on team Varys so yeah lol

    fdr,

    Uh no, I don’t think Jon could ever have kept his true identity a secret from his sisters. It’s too important for him and for them.
    Sansa is smart but not to the extent that she realises R+L=J by herself lol, for her Jon was nothing but Ned’s son.
    Also Jon never tried to make it seem like they were all family. He never said “Dnarys is my family too so please try to get along” or sth similar. To his sisters, he only portrays Dany as an ally and definitely not the love of his life. Remember that Dnerys explicitly forbade him from being associated with her family…

    And finally, I don’t think Sansa’s “why her” question conveyed jealousy. She sounded hurt that people she respects follow Dnyerys who wants to take away the hard won freedom of the North.

  440. I rewatched the last episode last night and if there is any doubt about where Dany is headed, all you had to do was listen to the foreboding music that accompanied her every scene. She’s going to destroy KL. The question is whether she will survive and how many characters may be unintended casualties?

    Also, Varys more or less implied that if Dany survives, he plans on having her assassinated. If she has him executed because she finds out about that, I don’t think she’d necessarily be wrong. If she does it just because she finds out he plans to support Jon, that is another story.

    I have no idea where they are heading with Jon. You could argue his farewells to Sam and Tormund imply he will never see them again. But I think they were too abrupt. Also, he didn’t have a farewell scene with Sansa,Arya, or Bran. I hate to jinx him, but I now think he’s going to live.

    I now see how a lot of people didn’t like the episode. The Euron ambush was ridiculous. Those scorpions definitely seem way too powerful and defy the laws of physics. I wish they would have just killed Rhaegal at Winterfell. Although I will say, the dialogue of Cersei asking Euron if he was sure Rhaegal was dead could have been foreshadowing him raising back to life. But that isn’t likely.

    Jaime’s definitely going to KL with the intention of trying to save Cersei. I read that wrong after my first watch. I still think he is going to kill her, but at that point, it’s not his intention. Also, Tyrion joking of him having to “climb that mountain”, while being about Brienne, piqued my foreshadowing senses. There is definitely a confrontation with The Mountain coming.

  441. fdr: Btw, I am totally okay using another word to decouple the meaning from its connotation, but we should also remember the mistakes from the past. Any suggestions for a non-native speaker?

    “Hysterical” ultimately refers to a woman acting out “inappropriately” to how society demands she should behave (and therefore can be discarded out of hand as just a function of her being a member of the “weaker sex”, whereas the exact same behavior from a male is assumed to be reasonable).

    Appropriate synonyms therefore would be crazy, unreasonable, hot-headed, emotional, unpredictable, insane, wacky, stupid, etc.

    fdr: And btw, with respect to terminology: e.g. when Maisie and Sophie comment that Jon Snow this season is following a typically male P organ, such kind of word choice is also negative towards men. Women are just as well capable to follow their C organ, but somehow nobody says that.

    Yeah I didn’t like those comments at all. Jon actually isn’t following his dick this season or last – he’s saving Westeros by whatever means necessary. He came to love Dany, but that does not explain why he bent the knee to her IMO. Arya agrees he did the right thing in the Godswood ultimately.

  442. AnnOther:
    Mango,

    Agreed. As I said in another reply (I don’t remember to whom — so many comments!), my point was not to say the situations were exactly comparable (besides, the point of such fiction is not to replicate real life), but that it echoes (in its own context) real world dilemmas when it comes to war. And I find it interesting to have different characters taking different stances on these questions. Actually in the show, “Dany is the agressor” is Cersei’s point of view and what she tells her lords and smallfolk (the dangerous foreign invader with savages), and it is partly true. I say “partly”, because Dany is not foreign and because Cersei is another “agressor” (she killed Robert, put her illegitimate sons on the throne by tearing a paper — which, ironically, was slightly a fake since Ned changed the wording — , without mass destruction weapons. Not even elephants!).
    On “All that was needed was moping of the remaining skirmishes. “: historians disagree about which amount of deaths that would have implied (but as I said in another post: there’s no parallel world so it’s hard to know. The US official argument after the war was: “many”, esp. many US soldiers). But dealing with WW2 would take (and already takes) books, and my intent was not to start a discussion on “real world’ !

    Yes, let us stay out of the real world discussion re WWII. It is very controversial plus shows our age or worse, that we are guilty of studying history.

    Aggressors: Both women are terrible.
    But Daenerys is the main agent of war and the main aggressor. Cersei is on the defensive side.
    Cersei is an aggressor in that she blew up her enemies in Sept (with high casualties) but only became queen when Tommen offed himself. Although, female, she is also the sole legitimate heir of Robert Baratheon and so could argue her claim to the throne without any discussion of the legitimacy of her sons. Her refusal to fight the AOTD shows that she is a terrible ruler however.

    You mention the will. Robert will specifically said Joffrey is to be king.
    This is one thing that I love about the writing of this story. Robert did not say – my son or my son Joffrey. He said Joffrey.

    Now Joffrey was a terrible person but that is not the point. I am going to make another controversial assertion – Ned had no right to change the will. None. He may have thought that Robert would not want Joffy if he knew that he was not the parent. But Ned does not know that. Robert was dying and may have thought best to avoid war as it was too late for him to investigate. I am surprised that there is so little discussion of Ned’s action but I was not on the internet back then. Further, anyone that has fostered or adopted a child – may actually consider Joffrey to have been Robert’s because parental bonds are not only genetic. Robert was not a great parent but both he and Joffery were bonded to the extent it was possible for both. (In fact, in many countries today, Robert would be morally and legally considered to Joffrey’s father.)

  443. Mango,

    Don’t tease me lol

    I just want him to do the right thing and not die at this point. But there are a lot of interesting connections between him and Jon that leave those options open as well.
    And yes, if Brienne is an ancestor of Dunk then he did spend an awful lot of time with Targaryens…and Starks if the upcoming tale’s title is a hint. 🙂

  444. Tyrion Pimpslap: Jaime’s definitely going to KL with the intention of trying to save Cersei. I read that wrong after my first watch

    OK I still do not see this after watching the episode 3 times. Can you explain why you think it? I am 100% sure he intends to kill Cersei and assumes it’s a suicide mission. He is doing it because Cersei will 100% murder Brienne if she is not stopped, and Jaime leaves only after hearing the war against Cersei is failing badly.

  445. QueenofThrones,

    It’s Sansa’s assertion that she’s disappointed she won’t get to be there when Cersei dies. It comes down to what you believe her intent was. Was she saying now that Dany lost another dragon, that Cersei will win? Or was she saying that losing Rhaegal and Missandei will further embolden Dany to end Cersei? Just by the way she said it, I took her to mean the latter. If it was the former I believe she would have shown more concern, seeing as how Jon is marching towards that battle.

  446. ash:
    QueenofThrones,

    No, you are right.Its been awhile since I read the books, so perhaps I am remembering differently. Yes about the age – and yes, it was cohersion.

    no worries, it’s written cleverly by Martin I think but basically when you look back at it, it’s written from the point of view of a date rapist. Most of these guys do have the legitimate belief that “deep down she actually wants it” and are playing hard to get. Jaime does not at all understand or care that Cersei may actually mean it when she says no. He’s too intent on what he wants and his own internal justifications. I think think that their relationship is inherently toxic and most likely many of their sexual encounters are like this.

    Why would Cersei stay with Jaime when he does care or respect her? She, like him, would not see it as rape or coercion / she would justify it because she ultimately enjoys the sex (even though she’s obviously PO’d). Also, he’s useful to her to keep around, this is annoying but she can deal with it. It’s a pretty honest exploration of rape culture IMO. And deeply creepy when you read it through that lens…

    BTW I think that the encounter with Brienne being consensual and driven by her as possible is a counterpoint. Jaime does enough to make it clear that he wants her – but ultimately she undresses both of them while he waits, not touching her, looking only into her eyes. It couldn’t be more different. Would have been nice if they were sober though.

    I have always wondered why would Martin make all the starks children? I get that in the middle ages kids matured earlier.But they were still kids, and what we know about their brains is that it takes a long time for them to come to adult decision making skills (heck some of us adults still lack them)Would it have been different if hemade them all 18? Would what they all went through for 8 seasons be different?It would be a different story in many ways, but maybe not.Im glad the show aged them all up, but why were they so young originally, going through such horror and trauma?

    Martin originally intended a “5 year gap” between the 3rd and 4th books where the children would age. He scrapped that and wrote AFFC/ADWD instead, primarily because it he couldn’t figure out how to make it work for adult characters like Tyrion, Jaime, and Cersei.

  447. Jaime’s definitely going to KL with the intention of trying to save Cersei. I read that wrong after my first watch. I still think he is going to kill her, but at that point, it’s not his intention. Also, Tyrion joking of him having to “climb that mountain”, while being about Brienne, piqued my foreshadowing senses. There is definitely a confrontation with The Mountain coming.

    Let me say that you could be right – but does this make sense?

    Cersei sent an assassin to kill him- but he is going to save her? When he last saw her, she orders Mountain to kill him but could not finish the job. So he knows that she wants him dead.

    He stays in KL fully aware that two dragons and a large army head off to kill Cersei. He does nothing – he stays living with Brienne in WF. This would have been the time to rush off to save her if he wanted to do that. Just think, he could have snuck up and killed Daenerys and save Cersei. He did nothing of the sort.

    He hears that Cersei is winning. He does not seem happy. Instead, he heads off to join the fighting.

    So yes, he could be going to save Cersei. But does he really think he needs to save her after he knows that she is winning?

    A better explanation would be that he decided that he wanted to be on the winning side as Cersei looks like the winner.

    I do not know what Jaime wants to do. I am interested in his story – if he goes to save Cersei that is interesting. If he goes to snuff her out, that is also interesting.

  448. Netheb: Dnyerys

    What is up with people who dislike Dany using weird shorthands for her name? I’ve seen this on tumblr too.

  449. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    QueenofThrones,
    It’s Sansa’s assertion that she’s disappointed she won’t get to be there when Cersei dies. It comes down to what you believe her intent was. Was she saying now that Dany lost another dragon, that Cersei will win? Or was she saying that losing Rhaegal and Missandei will further embolden Dany to end Cersei? Just by the way she said it, I took her to mean the latter. If it was the former I believe she would have shown more concern, seeing as how Jon is marching towards that battle.

    well Sansa intended to wound Jaime with that statement. She’s still pretty pissed at him about Jory / attacking Ned – they have been enemies for ages. But I don’t understand how Sansa’s intentions matter here – what matters is what Jaime has learned about the situation.

    Compared to the previous weeks when he was happy to stay, Jaime has now learned that Cersei has Dany on the ropes, that she has killed a dragon and Dany’s fleet, and that his Brother was nearly killed by Euron/Cersei.

    The only thing that’s changed is that Cersei is much more likely to win the war than previously. If he’s going to support Cersei now because she is winning, that would make him a political opportunist which isn’t in his character at all.

    Jaime acts for love, not politics. He’s going to stop Cersei because it’s the only way to save Tyrion, and Brienne, and ultimately himself. Also he believes its his duty as he’s half the reason she’s still on the throne.

    *BTW this doens’t make him any less of an asshole. He should have told Brienne what he was doing instead of BREAKING HER FUCKING HEART. But then we wouldn’t be having this interesting conversation so… I get it. Also it’s in character – he doesn’t believe he’s worthy or deserving of her help and understanding.

  450. Inga,

    I was responding the second time to the other posters assertion that they should be able to say whatever they want. And that the term “mansplaining” is somehow sexist (lol)

  451. Chilli:
    Mango,

    Jaime won’t be a bad ruler I think, but people will always think of him as the Kingslayer and he is also associated with his sister Cersei. Don’t know if everyone knows Joffrey was his son. But he also betrayed King Robert by doing so. That’s not a really good track record. I know present Jaime is better, but it’s only Brienne who really believes in him.

    Robert and Cersei had a political marriage. Did you see the conversation btw Robert and Cersei? Theirs was an arrangement btw Robert and the Lannisters for the stability of the Westeros. Jaime stood outside the door as Robert bedded numerous women. Robert fondled women in public at the WF dinner. Jaime did his bit for the stability of Westeros and for his family by sharing Cersei (I am ignoring the incest question). To be practical, in this kind of arrangement, Robert should expect Cersei to discreetly take a lover. Actually, he should want her to do so.

    Anyway, Jaime’s arc has been of evolving away from his earlier self. He is no longer the golden lion. He is becoming what he was meant to be. We will not know what that is until the story ends.

    Now the kingslayer matter may have greater implications but I do not think a ruler has to be seen as completely virtuous. (Virtue is Brienne’s job!) He needs to be seen as just. Plus most of the lords concerned with that are all dead. The small folk may not have much to say.

  452. Mango,

    I’d rather Jaime gets to retire to Tarth TBH. He’d be miserable as king. Better to melt the throne to slag and convert to some kind of proto-democracy.

    It would be quite an impactful scene if he does kill Cersei and sit the throne again, waiting for whoever to come and claim it like he did 20 years ago (or whatever it is now).

  453. Mango: Let me say that you could be right – but does this make sense?

    Cersei sent an assassin to kill him- but he is going to save her? When he last saw her, she orders Mountain to kill him but could not finish the job.So he knows that she wants him dead.

    He stays in KL fully aware that two dragons and a large army head off to kill Cersei. He does nothing – he stays living with Brienne in WF. This would have been the time to rush off to save her if he wanted to do that. Just think, he could have snuck up and killed Daenerys and save Cersei. He did nothing of the sort.

    He hears that Cersei is winning. He does not seem happy. Instead, he heads off to join the fighting.

    Well after obsessing over his facial expression, he didn’t seem that surprised that Cersei had sent someone to kill him but he made that face when Bronn said he always knew the dragon queen would kill Cersei.
    He made that face again when Sansa said she wished she could have been there to see Cersei executed.

    This of course, as I hope, pray and believe, could be a misdirect for the audience. He knows that Cersei knows about the wildfire and knows how she gets when it looks like she’s cornered.
    BUT-he still thinks she’s pregnant with his child, and that might be what he’s thinking about too.

    If they have a reunion with a lovemaking session I’ll be more upset than I’ve been about any other tweak on the show, because that would take away from everything he’s accomplished growth-wise. But I don’t think they will. She’s been with Euron, she’s lying about her pregnancy and she’s no doubt really ticked at Jaime for leaving her alone with the skeezy pirate instead of sharing in her evil glory.

    I just want him to tell her-as he’s killing her after he finds out she was never pregnant and that she wants to destroy KL before anyone else can sit on the throne-that he is in love with a woman more beautiful than Cersei will ever be. Brienne of f-ing Tarth. *moon door scene part two*
    Boom.
    I know it won’t happen like that, but anything similar and I’ll be over the moon.
    Be a good man, Jaime!

  454. QueenofThrones,

    I completely disapprove of how he parted from Brienne.

    If he was going kill Cersei, he needed to say something better. If he was going to save Cersei, he needed to say something better. First, he tried to sneak off, then he delivered a mess. Even if he wanted to end their affair, he could tell her to stay put at WF as he has some loose ends to handle. I am not sure what would have worked best.

  455. RG,

    He may have to get Cersei in bed to get her alone. If not, Mountain is close by her. So I would not be surprised if he goes for a seduction if possible.

    He also risks dying as to get her alone, he may have to kill Euron. Jaime has one-hand only.

    He will luck out only if Cersei/Mountain kills Euron first. And Arya/Hound kills Mountain as well before he gets there.

    But it truly does not look good for him.

  456. Mango: If he was going kill Cersei, he needed to say something better. If he was going to save Cersei, he needed to say something better.

    This is a story: Jaime needed to say something that leaves us very uncertain as to what his actual intentions are. Moreover, this is a story that is created entirely by the characters being at odds with themselves. So, Jaime needs to be portrayed (as he was) as basically doing something against his will: and not because someone else is compelling him, but because 51% of his will is compelling the other 49%.

    It would have been absolutely horrible storytelling to have Jaime make himself clear to us: and, no, “in the real world…” does not hold here: reality is not a story.

  457. QueenofThrones: It would be quite an impactful scene if he does kill Cersei and sit the throne again, waiting for whoever to come and claim it like he did 20 years ago (or whatever it is now).

    If he’s sitting on the throne, then he’ll be sitting on it with Cersei and both will be dead. I think that Jaime basically foretold his death a few seasons ago!

  458. Jaime is not going to KL to be Cersei’s biggest fan. He saw the AotD and the sacrifices they all made for the entire realm/planet, and he finally realized what real love is. He knows how dangerous Cersei is, and doesn’t want Brienne there.

    Instead, he’ll uphold the pledge he made to Catelyn to protect her daughters. There is also a Mountain to climb.

  459. Wimsey: This is a story: Jaime needed to say something that leaves us very uncertain as to what his actual intentions are.Moreover, this is a story that is created entirely by the characters being at odds with themselves.So, Jaime needs to be portrayed (as he was) as basically doing something against his will: and not because someone else is compelling him, but because 51% of his will is compelling the other 49%.

    It would have been absolutely horrible storytelling to have Jaime make himself clear to us: and, no, “in the real world…” does not hold here: reality is not a story.

    This is a story? Really? Oh my, thanks.

    Telling her he had loose ends to handle tells us nothing as an audience. It does not even tell us if he is coming back to her. Or what he plans to do. It does however say the man who knighted her two episodes ago did say something ok.

  460. Tyrion Pimpslap: I rewatched the last episode last night and if there is any doubt about where Dany is headed, all you had to do was listen to the foreboding music that accompanied her every scene. She’s going to destroy KL.

    The problem is: will Cersei let Daenerys do otherwise? In a lot of ways, Cersei is paralleling the Night King here in that whereas most leaders have at least some thought to preserving the lives of their soldiers & followers. The NK did not care because he could just lift his arms and, hey! presto! He has a new army. Cersei, on the other hand, is basically a sociopath.

    That could be very much Cersei’s strategy that drives her tactics: her enemy is too weak to do what must be done to remove her, and because the only thing people respect is Power (because that is the only thing that Cersei respects), the other Westerosi lords will eventually come back to Cersei because they have to respect someone who will destroy a thing rather than surrender it.

    Regardless, if it does come down to Daenerys’ forces destroying Kings Landing, then the question need to be: was there any other feasible option? My bet is that the answer will be “no.”

  461. JamesL:
    Snow Crystal,

    What country do you live in? GoT is the most popular show in the world including among young people.

    I live in Canada. But, notice that I said, “HBO content may appeal more to an older audience . . .” So, yes, I agree that GoT will also appeal to a younger audience; however, in my experience the show mostly appeals to an older audience.

  462. Mango: This is a story? Really? Oh my, thanks.

    Telling her he had loose ends to handle tells us nothing as an audience. It does not even tell us if he is coming back to her. Or what he plans to do. It does however say the man who knighted her two episodes ago did say something ok.

    You’ve been a Jaime fan long enough to know that he rarely says what he means – his actions however speak for what he really believes. His words to Brienne here are nearly word for word what he said to Edmure about wanting to kill everyone in Riverrun for Cersei when in fact he was only talking to Edmure in the first place to avoid that exact thing happening. He’s said many times to Cersei that they are the only thing that matters… then when pushed on that point by Cersei, he rides north.

    Here, he says he’s done this all for Cersei as way of explanation for why he’s riding south. In fact he’s going to kill Cersei. But Brienne would 100% follow him if he gave any other reason besides that he loves Cersei. And he wants Brienne to stay safe. I personally think that’s bullshit but it is in character for sure.

    This may be the first time he’s lied to Brienne this way, though. And it hurts like hell. He tried to leave without her knowing TBF.

  463. QueenofThrones:
    Mango,

    I’d rather Jaime gets to retire to Tarth TBH.He’d be miserable as king.Better to melt the throne to slag and convert to some kind of proto-democracy.

    It would be quite an impactful scene if he does kill Cersei and sit the throne again, waiting for whoever to come and claim it like he did 20 years ago (or whatever it is now).

    I would be very happy to see him retire to Tarth as well. This would be the end that I think he would chose.

    But Tyrion and Jaime are the two most informed and prepared persons for ruling. Sansa is also clear minded and a great possibility. Tyrion and/or Sansa would be great. Jon would be a good candidate despite his more limited life exposure and the state of his health(!!).

    The two worse are Cersei and Daeneyers.

  464. QueenofThrones: You’ve been a Jaime fan long enough to know that he rarely says what he means – his actions however speak for what he really believes.His words to Brienne here are nearly word for word what he said to Edmure about wanting to kill everyone in Riverrun for Cersei when in fact he was only talking to Edmure in the first place to avoid that exact thing happening.He’s said many times to Cersei that they are the only thing that matters…then when pushed he rides north.Here, he says he’s done this all for Cersei as way of explanation for why he’s riding south.In fact he’s going to kill Cersei. But Brienne would 100% follow him if he gave any other reason besides that he loves Cersei.And he wants her to stay safe.

    This may be the first time he’s lied to Brienne this way, though.And it hurts like hell.He tried to leave without her knowing TBF.Absolutely in character for him to do this.

    Good point.

  465. Mango: This is a story? Really? Oh my, thanks.

    And yet you then write:

    Telling her he had loose ends to handle tells us nothing as an audience.

    At the climax of a story, storytellers are long since done telling us about the characters. They told the audience what they should need to go over 7 years: and at that amounts to Jaime now being very much on the edge with regards to Cersei. If the storytellers did their job properly, then it should be close to 50:50 as to which side of the edge he will fall.

  466. Mango,

    “If we believe it, even Jesus Christ lasted only three days as resurrected man before he bounced.”

    Maybe other churches/religions teach the story differently– but in Catholicism Jesus Christ was dead for three days before he resurrected. Ascension Day — the day celebrated in Catholicism as when the resurrected Christ ascended directly from earth to heaven — occurs 40 days later.

  467. Wimsey: If he’s sitting on the throne, then he’ll be sitting on it with Cersei and both will be dead.I think that Jaime basically foretold his death a few seasons ago!

    As long as Brienne survives, Jaime can die in the arms of the woman he loves at the age of 80, in his own bed. :p

  468. ShameShameShame:
    Jaime is not going to KL to be Cersei’s biggest fan.He saw the AotD and the sacrifices they all made for the entire realm/planet, and he finally realized what real love is.He knows how dangerous Cersei is, and doesn’t want Brienne there.

    Instead, he’ll uphold the pledge he made to Catelyn to protect her daughters.There is also a Mountain to climb.

    Yes! I caught that. Lord, I hope there are a few people around to help him if that’s the case.

    And I agree. Now he knows what love is. What trusting people to have your back and fighting on the right side is. The baby is the only hiccup-and like I said-I don’t think it exists.

    Imo, if he dies in Cersei’s arms, it won’t fit with his last wish anymore.

  469. Mango: I am going to make another controversial assertion – Ned had no right to change the will. None. He may have thought that Robert would not want Joffy if he knew that he was not the parent. But Ned does not know that. Robert was dying and may have thought best to avoid war as it was too late for him to investigate. I am surprised that there is so little discussion of Ned’s action but I was not on the internet back then. Further, anyone that has fostered or adopted a child – may actually consider Joffrey to have been Robert’s because parental bonds are not only genetic. Robert was not a great parent but both he and Joffery were bonded to the extent it was possible for both. (In fact, in many countries today, Robert would be morally and legally considered to Joffrey’s father.)

    I agree with you (and was not on the Internet either then). That’s why I mentionned the change in the wording. Ned appears as the Honorable-Man-that-was-not-fit-to-Politics. But he is gey too… As for Cersei’s right to rule, I may reconsider. I need time to think over it (and I’m not sure I understood the succession rules in Westeros, in particular cognate/agnate laws — these mere words betray my age! ).

  470. RG,

    Interesting interpretation of “the younger and more beautiful woman” from Maggy’s prophecy. I’ve been thinking on that with regards to whether Dany will become queen. I know people have speculated that it wasn’t necessarily another queen who would cast her down, but the way it was worded always seemed to imply it is.

    “Queen you shall be…until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

    I guess we are likely to find out tonight. I know some people will disagree. But in my view Cersei views power and being queen as more dear to her than Jaime or her children.

  471. The Good Waif:
    Mango,

    “If we believe it, even Jesus Christ lasted only three days as resurrected man before he bounced.”

    Maybe other churches/religions teach the story differently– but in Catholicism Jesus Christ was dead for three days before he resurrected. Ascension Day — the day celebrated in Catholicism as when the resurrected Christ ascended directly from earth to heaven — occurs 40 days later.

    Thanks, hahahhaha! So he lasted 40 days, I think that is what I learned at church too. I forgot.

  472. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I still feel that has happened and Margary was the younger and more beautiful queen.

    Cersei has always held her children closest. Even when Jamie was gone she slept with Lancel. She loves him but she also truly manipulates him. Her children have always been her everything. Margary took Tommen away, her final child. Cersei really was at her lowest when she realised that Tommen favoured his wife over his mother, hence why she plotted to get rid of Margary. Even in death, Tommen killed himself after Cersei killed Margary in the Sept blast.

  473. QueenofThrones,

    You were talking about a useful word like hysterical and how we should be getting rid of it, just because it’s not being used correctly.

    I’m sorry, but banning words isn’t going to make the word a better place. Changing minds and healthy debate are the way forward.

    By banning ‘bad’ words, you’re just obfuscating the issues. And then the people you want to change will just invent other words to mean the same things. And you’ll have accomplished nothing.

  474. QueenofThrones: In fact he’s going to kill Cersei. But Brienne would 100% follow him if he gave any other reason besides that he loves Cersei. And he wants Brienne to stay safe. I personally think that’s bullshit but it is in character for sure.

    I can’t wait for the shock of this to bite everyone. Jaime will kill Cersei near the iron throne and Brienne may witness it. Then as she approaches him slowly to comfort him, she will witness Jaime’s face sliding off and suddenly Arya is staring back at her for a moment before walking away. Oh, the tears of Tarth shall flow even more!

    An ending filled with surprise and shock, not predictable.

  475. Hodors Bastard: I can’t wait for the shock of this to bite everyone. Jaime will kill Cersei near the iron throne and Brienne may witness it. Then as she approaches him slowly to comfort him, she will witness Jaime’s face sliding off and suddenly Arya is staring back at her for a moment before walking away. Oh, the tears of Tarth shall flow even more!

    An ending filled with surprise and shock, not predictable.

    I’ve thought this would be the outcome before the season started – it could have worked well if Jaime had in fact died during the long night. And if Arya had not killed the NK.

    However I doubt Arya will kill both Cersei and the NK. Furthermore, as evidenced by the posts here, Jaime’s character arc hasn’t been clarified yet – killing him offscreen for the shock value of Arya taking his face would prevent closure.

  476. King in the North East:
    QueenofThrones,
    You were talking about a useful word like hysterical and how we should be getting rid of it, just because it’s not being used correctly.

    I’m sorry, but banning words isn’t going to make the word a better place. Changing minds and healthy debate are the way forward.

    By banning ‘bad’ words, you’re just obfuscating the issues. And then the people you want to change will just invent other words to mean the same things. And you’ll have accomplished nothing.

    “Banning” words is unhelpful, and not what I’m saying. You should definitely go ahead and use racial, ableist, sexist, and homophobic epithets as well if you really feel that gets across your meaning better than another word. But ignoring the context of those words makes no sense. Nor in this case does it. Somehow, again, I doubt that you use those other words though.

    In what way do you feel this word is especially “useful,” by the way?

    just because it’s not being used correctly.

    By its origin, the word means “unreasonable, like women get because of their female bodies”. What do you think the correct meaning is?