Game of Thrones Season 6, Episode 9 “Battle of the Bastards”
Writers: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss
Director: Miguel Sapochnik
Runtime: 60 minutes
Content Warnings: TV-MA: Adult Content, Adult Language, Graphic Violence
Video Preview: Full episode 9 preview on YouTube
Synopsis: Terms of surrender are rejected and accepted.
*Note: please use spoiler coding when discussing ASOIAF or filming spoilers.*
Tonight. #GameofThroneshttps://t.co/ru1b176h7j
— Game Of Thrones (@GameOfThrones) June 19, 2016
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Spoiler coding is still required in this Open Chat post prior to the episode’s official airing (9PM EDT tonight for Season 6 Episode 9). We ask that fans use consideration for your fellow viewers, and cover and label your spoilers appropriately.
Spoilers from the actual aired episode are not permitted in this post until after the episode officially airs at 9PM EDT. Thank you!
Hells yeah.
First post, long time reader, it’s on like Donkey Kong, can’t wait.
Hodor
Wyllis!
Edit: damnit!
Hyyyyyyyyyppppppppppeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!
And today…
The North Dismembers.
This has way more hype then Hardhome did last year, which i think will end up hurting this episode. I have no doubt it will be epic, but one of the great things about Hardhome is that it took everyone by surprise. BotB has immense hype to live up to now.
Yes, i know HH was episode 8 last year, but it was the big battle episode of the season.
Prayer circle for Jon’s supporting cast.
my predictions are that Tormund n Davos die
And I’m scared and nervous that next week Thrones is gone until next year.
Last time I’m posting this, if you haven’t watched this extended fan-made trailer yet, take 3 minutes & do it. You can thank me later!
Seven blessings to you all and may the episode leak within 3 hours so us European folk can watch it like normal people.
🙂
I am curious about the death toll this episode. I think the next one will have a bigger one, but how many named characters will have their curtain calls next week? 🙂
Shouldn’t you be even more scared that Thrones will be gone forever in about two years? 😀
Throne-To-The-Wolves,
Yes, we will.
What do you think is happening in the preview when Tormund has a stunned look on his face and kind of steps back?
So so happy this is finally up! Been checking all evening. Let the hype begin! I am staying up till 2am for this one. I hope it doesn’t feel anti-climactic after all the build up; I’m optimistic it won’t. The preview looks amazing! I am fearful for several of our beloved characters – Tormund, Ghost Rickon mainly – but I feel quite confident that Jon, Sansa and Davos will make it out alive. I feel that Jon is an end game character, Sansa needs to unite the north (and may be the last remaining true Stark if Rickon doesn’t make it out of Ramsey’s clutches) and I feel Davos has been built up too much and still has much to do in an advisory role to lose his life just yet (though he’s the one I’m least sure about. I love that guy, I hope he makes it!!).
Episode spoiler:
Something to do with Meli, I think.
Really excited about this episode. I do have high hopes, but I will be fair in my assessment. Let’s hope it completely knocks it out of the park!
I think one of them and Wun Wun.
I feel that these next two episodes will set a lot of things in motion for the endgame. I’m excited!
Che,
What about Bran and Arya?
They really should find a better time frame or move it to friday or Saturday at least?If you are working getting through Monday without spoilers is hopeless
I’m beyond excited for tonight. Some people will whine and nitpick like they always do, but I’m certain that ‘Battle of the Bastards’ will be one of the best episodes to date. Have fun everyone!
HYPE HYPE HYPE!
Also, so anxious about losing characters tonight.
As always, staying up to watch it at 2am!
Davos going ballistic on Melisandre after finding out about Shireen’s fate …. hopefully
Funny that the battle of the bastards is on fathers’ day.
I think it’s the Bolton army surrounding (and advancing towards) the wildlings with shields and spears.
Well, we will finally learn who is on the Bolton Crosses. I am hoping that my prediction is wrong!
Wimsey,
What is your prediction?
Jack Bauer 24,
There are so many possibilities that it is pointless to try to guess.
Moondoor,
Thank the Old Gods that mondays is my day off. : )
Miss Stark,
Oh, sorry: I’ve long suspected that it is going to be Edd and other NW members. Ramsay did promise retribution if his bride was not returned.
So nervous for this , my hubs is like ” you know it’s not real ” . But then he isn’t a throner. Have a candle lighting ( if your Irish you’ll get that ) for Jon and Tormund to survive and fight another day.
Wimsey,
Yeah, I think the same thing. They haven’t been showing us what he’s been up to, and I think that’s because he’s certainly been up to something.
Don’t forget Mereen! Will we see all 3 dragons onscreen together again for the first time since Season 4? Will we see a naval battle with the Greyjoys/Masters?
Seeing that shot of Davos all blown up on the e-mail…that sure likes what might be the remains of a carved stag figurine in his hands!
Of all the characters high on the death watch list for this episode, Davos is the one whose loss I would mourn the most. Hope he makes it. Modest fellow that he is, maybe he’s underestimating his skills when he calls himself “not much of a fighter.” Presumably smugglers get into scraps now and then, in seedy waterfront taverns or when boarded by pirates who aren’t quite a friendly as Salladhor Saan!
Niamh,
Bah! That is what they said about Santa and Frodo, too….
\( ö )/ HYYYYYYPPPPPPEEEEE!!!!!!!!
Make it 9:00 NOW !!
Jack Bauer 24,
I think it’s just the Wildlings not knowing what to do against such an organized army. They are marching them back with a shield wall and spears.
Jack Bauer 24,
Wun Wun kicks it?
Ha, this is the one episode that’s made me wish for a leak all morning. Less than 5 hours now. 😀
I hope so, I also planned in my day today an afternoon-nap in, just in case to be fully awake to see this episode clearly. Now I’m rewatching the old 9th episode and Hardhome.
By the way I’ve read today an interview with Sibel Kekilli (Shae) about a film theme-related to Terre des Femmes and she was pointing out, that the photos with her seen on the Game of Thrones-set, was just a photographical document of an visit from her on set to meet old co-workers. Quote from her :”Ich werde nicht als Zombie zurückkehren” – I won’t returning as a zombie.
So I think a vision with her is out of the way now, with so much to happen yet.
Jack Bauer 24,
“The Falcons are coming!”
I can’t believe I have been exited about this battle since september and it’s finally here.I’m sure it’s going to be great and I’m chill about jon but starting the prayer circle for his supporting cast even though I am confident they will make it
Between Mereen and the pre battle Northern scenes (Jon/Mel, Jon/Sansa, Davos/Shireen pyre, Ramsay/Rickon) I’m going to say that the actual battle will be under 15 minutes.
Will be hard to top Hardhome but that’s also because I didn’t know about that episode in advance.
This could be the best battle scene ever, I guess the cost is on par with some hollywood movie budgets.
Super excited, both for Winterfell ánd Meereen!
Somehow I don’t think many ‘good’ characters will die. Rickon most likely. I hope Ghost gets some awesome scenes!
And I also ‘pray’ to see all three dragons flying above the harpies, lighting them with fire. That would be beyond awesome.
Miss Stark,
Part of the basis for my suspicion is that it would be fitting if one of Jon’s acts to save people from the Walkers wound up being a cause of what lets the Walkers into the realm: if Ramsay (or, more probably, men acting under his orders) sack Castle Black, then the Wall will be largely unmanned.
I suspect that we will see a parallel in Kings Landing: Jaime’s action to save the city from burning is going to set up Cersei torching much of it. There might not be “good” or “evil” in Martinverse, but there does seem to be a “no good deed goes unpunished” anti-karma!
However, because I irrationally “like” Edd, I am hoping that I am wrong!
TheRick01,
They are not going to be anywhere near winterfell for a while
Flayed Potatoes,
10 Internet Points to you….
Moondoor,
I am thinking about petitioning to HBO regarding moving the initial airing to Saturday. The present situation is unbearable.
PS. I’ll be staying up all night and reading this thread. Plaese, someone inform what’s happening.
I think so. He’s the last of the giants right? It’ll be easier on them as well next season when they don’t have to include any giants in the big battle that will include dragons and white walkers.
Rhaenys Stark,
I’m ignoring them all this week and next week
Also I hate living in europe the night is so hard to get by
OMBOB !!!!!!!!!! I can’t wait for it to start.
Is Ghost even at the battle?
I struggle to take people seriously who spell Meereen as Mereen. We’ve been there for three seasons, so you’d think people would have realised by now.
DireWolfHeart,
This is me thanking you later.
I suspect that might be next week. Still, perhaps they will do the two battles in parallel in some way. In some ways, that might work best. However, we’ve gotten almost nothing in the previews to indicate that will be what is happening: that does not mean that it will not happen, but it seems probable that they would have set it up.
This is my last year of being able to watch it Monday morning, no such luxuries next year…Waking up at 6 in the morning isn’t my thing
I’m being intelligent for once and not subscribing to this thread, since I have to work tomorrow and I know my phone will positively explode with notifications after the episode if I do. Lol. Enjoy, all, and remember that what is dead may never die…..
Knight of the Walkers,
I never spell it the same way twice in a row, myself. Thus, much like a broken clock, I am sometimes correct.
😀
Like others, very nervous for some much-loved characters. Fingers and toes crossed. I could stay up until 3.10 in the morning (it’s on Sky from 2.00 until 3.10), or watch tomorrow, and with the recent ones I’ve been doing the morning watch. But sooo tempted to stay up tonight!
I think that Blackfish is not really dead and he will appear to help Norh with Tully army.
I am very worried about Rickon, I wish it won’t occur anything bad to him
Wimsey,
Edd needs to be at the Wall when it falls down and to meet Bran.
How it can parallel? It’s better two unique battles, we don’t need parallels for every single thing. The outcome will be different too most likely. Daeny winning, Jon not so much.
Just to say – I’m a long-time reader of this site, but never posted until this evening… 🙂
So excited! 😀
But I have to watch it tomorrow morning. Here it will be 3am when it airs…
Let me know when you do!I’m dreading next year already,now Monday morning is still an option.
Tonight is going to be a real roller coaster ride, first game 7 of the NBA finals (go Warriors!!!) and then hop over to HBO to watch this epic episode.
No, he doesn’t.
Jack Bauer 24,
Hopefully not
Hi all.
I think Brienne and Pod will be on those crosses and Ramsay will taunt Jon: So you thought you were getting help from The Riverlands?
That would explain Tormunds look of surprise and give more weight to the long goodbye on the river last episode.
I hope I’m wrong though.
I’m sure this will be great but the showrunners seem to have been over selling the season. I remember that one of them said, that there wasn’t a single weak episode this year. A lot of fans seem to disagree…
So my fear is that they deliver a top five episode and lots of people will be disappointed anyway.
I’m getting anxious for Rickon and Tormund in particular.
Really hoping Ramsay finally gets it. It does seem like a Thunderdome situation and they can’t kill off Jon again. That would make no sense. Here’s hoping that graphic violence warning is partially there because Ramsay dies painfully. I’m still nervous that he won’t even though narratively he needs to go so the North can finally focus on the White Walker/Wight apocalypse.
Gah! I keep telling myself that I won’t drink during GoT so that I’m not a mess on Monday, but this show drives me too it 😀
Jack Bauer 24,
Leave him in his doggy pen tbh. He must be protected at all costs. #SaveTheDirewolves
Davos is going to live and become a red priest.
Fuck! Dolorous is the word for the day today on m-w.com. I got crazy worried that it was a spoilerific patronage to Edd, but then I thought, the Wall isn’t even in this episode. Now you’ve extinguished that hope.
Possibly, but fans tend to be very bad judges of how good episodes actually are. That written, the first episode did not go down particularly well with the general public or the critics. The rest of them seem to have done.
Since it is Game of Thrones, the Bastard and the traitorous wive will kill our beloved Lord Ramsey Bolton.
Wimsey,
Yes he does. We need at least one of our characters and it certainly makes more sense than putting him on the cross. Osha as Wildling could be one, Stannis other or Roose. We got 6 crosses.
heh, now we transition from Instant Karma to Synchronicity!
Wimsey,
[ spoiler ] I can recall over last summer a post of mentioning the Battle of 6 armies with BOB posting. 3 armies battling, armies probably being Starks, Boltons, and Nights of the Vale. that would leave 3 for Meereen with Masters, Dany, and Greyjoys but just thought who knows what will happen. [ / spoiler]
I have a fear that
could be a startling choice to have on the Bolton crosses.
I think it is safe to say Brienne is definitely not on a cross.
John the normal guy,
Damn that would suck….
Hello ? Welcome to the hype!
Anyone else on here have a game of thrones viewing meal? I usually have my favorite pizza and a couple beers.
Prediction wise, I think Tormund (those romance scenes with Brienne would be so much more tragic in hindsight) and Wun Wun will die along with Smalljon Umber and the younger Karstark. Ser Davos might bite it, but I sincerely hope he doesn’t. He’s my favorite.
I do not see how either story or plot require Ed or the remainder of the Watch to be alive. On the other hand, the removal of the Watch certainly opens up plot avenues for letting the Walkers get through the Wall: and that has to happen soon.
Moreover, wouldn’t the Crows be more shock-value for Jon and the “loyalists?” They no longer mean anything to the Bolton faction: with the Wildlings in Westeros, the Watch no longer has a purpose. However, to the “loyalists,” it would be a powerful statement of what the new order does to those that betray them. And it certainly would be thematically very appropriate.
As for Osha, Stannis, Roose: what possible shock value would they hold to the loyalists? Besides, it’s been months since any of them died: they should be unrecognizable by now.
No hype – No speculation… Just looking forward to what is certainly going to be an EPIC episode 🙂
The Pisser (downside) is that although it is past 9pm here, I will have to wait until 2am (UK time) to watch it. Such is life!
TheRick01,
I didn’t explain that very well did I? 🙂 I mean the last Stark anyone is aware of being alive. I have no doubt Bran will make it south of the wall and Arya will return from Braavos, but in the meantime, she’ll be the last one everyone is aware of (if Rickon dies).
Kick some Bolton ass today, Jon Snow!!!
I hope the fighting is mind blowing and that the music is perfectly epic. I can’t wait to hear what Ramin Djawadi has in store for us tonight. I would give my left toe if we could hear “Jon’s Honor” play while he heroically rides his horse into battle. For those that aren’t familiar with that theme:
https://youtu.be/SZrDEUldGr0?t=164
GO #TEAMSTARK!!
HYPE!
That’s all, see you after the episode 🙂
Black Raven,
Me too but I’ll never stay awake, so I’ll just get up at 6am to watch….and not look online before I do lol
I agree, they should not be. Given that Brienne is a main character (a lesser one, but a main one nonetheless), they should have shown her being taken by someone first. Of course, in principle, I suppose that could happen early in the episode. But my thought is that Brienne is going to ride for the Vale troops: she is pragmatic enough realize that Sansa needs someone!
Alternatively, perhaps she’ll meet up with the Brotherhood: they know that the real fight is to the North, and forcing her and the Hound to make peace would fit the story very well.
Halfman,
If I wake up at 6 AM, then I am incapable of reading for at least an hour or so, myself.
😀
I can’t wait, however I do hope we get some shocking, gasping moments?
…But to be fair English isn’t my native language,
If Brienne is on one of those crosses, I think my heart my explode. 🙁
A girl knows everything,
Indeed! Tonight we learn that the Boltons have discovered electricity, and are now using it to torture people.
Sorry…. 😉
And that will happen shortly after the loss of his beloved father, stepmother and newborn half-brother.
Geez, why can’t Ramsay ever get a break.
Miss Stark,
Well, that should be no problem if you are a Time Lady: you can use the other one.
Er: you are a Time Lady, aren’t you?
You guys have me really worried for Edd now.
How many crosses were there again? I’m getting nervous about who’s on them. Would Osha be important enough to be on a cross? Though a lot of time has probably past since Ramsay murdered her; probably too long to keep her body from decomposing. You guys have me thinking they’re Night’s Watchmen now; that they stormed Castle Black after Jon and co left and overpowered the crows. Agh! I hope not! I love Edd.
Indeed: but I will feel even more sorry for his dogs….. 🙁
In Terms of a period from our real World History, I have a feeling this is going to play out like The Battle of Bosworth Field.. The final major battle from the Wars of the Roses.
Henry Tudor’s out-numbered force met Richard 111’s superior army and just when things were going to hell for Henry, a undecided army entered the fray and turned the tide against King Richard. :o)
Can’t wait to see the episode and at the same time I am anxious to see how it will go because at this point my expectations are so high. But I think in any way the last of the Epic 9s will deliver!
I want to see long awaited, well deserved revenge and justice for characters that we loved and cared. Tywin died by the hands of his own son as well as Roose, but Ramsey is still alive and this time I hope Jon and Sansa will do the justice themselves, because it is so personal, it’s their family, it’s their home. And I don’t even want to think what will be the sacrifice for their victory (Please, don’t let Ghost die!)
The North Remembers ! HYPEEEEEEEE
Wimsey,
When Bran passes the Wall we need some known character and not bunch of extras. We shall know soon but maybe Lord Glover could be one. He said to Jon he could be skinned for just talking to him and it would send a message to Northerners with Jon.
Wimsey,
I hope one of them is Littlefinger, but not likely
Geralt of Rivia,
I’m not sure anyone needs to be at the Wall to meet Bran. That said, I don’t want the NW to be on those crosses.
Wimsey,
I know the feeling. I’m not a morning person. ?
Wimsey,
Yeah I’ve noticed that too
Its going to be 120 degrees here. Little worried about all the hype after last week. No use trying to walk off steam or even go to the mall. Gonna do what I can to stay cool and calm inside……
Well, perhaps the battle scenes will start with those bodies already burning on the crosses and we won’t find out who they are!
I will piss myself laughing if that happens 😮
Well, for what it is worth, I hope not, too! My concern is that, from a cold, critical perspective, it would fit the story, plot and themes well. And I will be somewhat disappointed in MB&W’s storytelling if Jon’s inability to respond to the Pink Letter resulted in no reprisals against the Watch.
Neither the story nor the plot requires Bran to encounter any characters at the Wall. What it needs is for Bran to encounter some of the other Big Six characters south of the Wall. But if Benjen is to accompany Bran, then in many ways it will make more sense if they cross after the Walkers have done so.
That seems implausible: after only one viewing, the audience would not remember and/or recognize him.
Chuck,
I’m making lamb (bloody) and new potatoes with a strong red wine. Next week I’ll be too hyped to make anything but a bag of Oreos.
That’s the best thing we can do I guess.
GO JON FOOKIN SNOOOOW
Jinx47,
I thought it was due to the Bolton forces advancing with their shields locked together? That’s how the preview made it look anyway, so it could’ve just been scenes spliced together I guess. Regardless, #SevenBlessingsForTormund
The flayed and burning men alone would be worthy of a graphic violence rating.
We should be truly worried for Rickon, but he’ll go out in a blaze of glory. Art warned us in an interview that we should be paying very close attention during his scenes. I’ll put the rest of what he said under spoiler tags.
Wimsey,
They weren’t going to have Edd and the whole Night’s Watch murdered offscreen.
I still think the crosses are no one significant – it was never said that they were significant characters, right?
i think it’s an impactful image but it’s not someone critical or really important
Nadia,
The fact that he flays people is considered barbaric even by the standards of Westeros. If he is defeated I would not be surprised to see the houses under his rule swear allegiance to House Stark again in a heartbeat. Who wants a tyrant in charge?
For tonight’s episode:
Will bran play some role in this war? I hope he is innvolved in some way or other
Niamh,
What if this leads to Tormund and Brienne going on to capture the Iron Throne?
Officially Hyped
…But to be fair English isn’t my native language,
I would rather bet on Beric and Thoros and 4 other members of the BwB. The Hound and Brienne and Pod (I think they might meet on the way) will escape and play some role in the BOB. But I know nothing.
Nadia,
Scouts and loyalists
? Where is our Lord too fat to sit a horse?
Everyone keeps talking about the vale arriving but I’m more keen to see our lord of the Frey pies. Now that would be a great end to the battle.
Yes, that’s the problem? If I wait until 9pm tomorrow (UK time) to watch it, the temptation to take a peek on this website later will be just too great and why I’ve gotten into the habit of watching the ‘simcast’ to avoid any spoilers 😉
For viewers further east in Europe it just gets crazy if they wish to watch the ‘simcast’. Probably best to go to bed (as you do) and to set their alarms clocks to wake them up just before its starts! Such is life I guess for us GoT fanatics hehe 😀
Simon,
I have a feeling we won’t see him until episode 10.
Nadia,
I agree with you. I think exhibiting corpses would be more shocking than burning ones which you can no longer identify after two minutes if burning.
As for Rickon, I still hope against hope that he will be OK. And that the Umbers might eventually side with Jon as soon as the battle starts… Well, all right : why should they have brought Rickon to the most sadistic guy on earth, then ? Being far too optimistic, here, I’m afraid.
Miss Stark,
Mores the waist. The Mandeleys would provide a nice counter point to little fingers forces and help tip the negotiations in the norths favor.
FRAN,
Exactly. For me the fact that the corpses are burning, no one is going to be able to tell who they are anyway. I think it’s the intimidation/fear aspect of it , of what happens when Ramsay wins. Not such hugely important character (to them or us) that’s up there.
Wow! Thanks to you I finally know the meaning of that word now. ^^ I’m not an English native speaker and always assumed it was a kind of an ironic nickname and meant something like “happy/chipper/delighted” in a humorous contrast to Edd’s demeanor. I would never have guessed it is just a plain description of him.
I’ll be watching after game 7. Hopefully the Warriors win and I’m not in a bad mood. I think the episode will look great. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for Davos and Mel. I don’t want to lose them yet.
Good day so far. First ever Albanian win in a major tournament and episode 9. Please don’t die mr seaworth
Black Raven,
If I waited til 9pm tomorrow I would definitely have read everything. I have no will power, so it’s an early rise. Unless I have an attack of insomnia and wake up at 2am.
On the other hand will we sleep at all? ?
I’ve just realised why Sansa lied to Jon and how she is playing LF and maneuvering Jon into taking on more responsibility than he would want. I won’t post because my spoiler tags never work but it is smart/strategic.
Tyron Pimpslap,
Don’t want to watch GOT and then fast forward through commercials in the game?
I would do the same thing as you probably if it was a football game.
You guys might appreciate my video on making a 3d map of Westeros with inlaid sigils. It will at least keep you busy for 7 minutes while you wait for the episode. I’ve been finishing up the project and video over the last few days just to keep from going crazy with the waiting. If you can survive the Red Wedding you can survive my rendition of the opening theme
Hmm am I the only one who things that the battle of the bastards(while huge itself) is just a smoke screen for Dany’s fight to surprise us with how epic it will be? Its not in the previews at all, yet a spoiler interview says it takes up 1/3rd the episode. Possibly it will be like Hardhome how it was just so amazing out of nowhere.
Simon,
I would love to see Manderley this episode, but I think he would have needed to be introduced before the battle for it to happen. I’ll be thrilled if I’m wrong though!
You know, I’m a huge Edd fan (thus the name) . And I think I might like that fate for him better than him being the one in charge at the Wall if/when it falls. That would break my heart.
Violet Koneko,
It’s what happens in KL that will leave us breathless.
Halfman,
Nice one 😀
So where do you live to have to wait until 6am to watch it?
Black Raven,
The U.K. but I can’t stay up til 2am when it airs, so it’s a 6am rise so I can watch before going to work.
Miss Stark,
I don’t think they’ll arrive however they are the only large house mentioned for the last 4 eps that haven’t yet appeared. Why name them if you aren’t going to use them? As they are a fan favorite it might pay to leave them to last, unless of course they are trolling us.
Rhaenys Stark,
Eff yessssss
Simon,
I don’t think so next week, next week for sure tho. Im guessing Cersei loses her trial, something happens to Tommen who feels bad for her, and in the end Jamie Kills her to prevent a Mad Queen senario
And you also spell Dany wrong – but wih extreme consistency! So, I guess in some cases a broken clock is really just broken! 😉
That’s a really good call. We already know that GRRM used the War of the Roses as inspiration for the War of Five Kings.
And from the casting announcements
Plus the Vale army is in the mix.
The going to hell stuff doesn’t do anything to ease my fears about Tormund though! I do think Ramsay will be defeated and killed, but not without a heavy toll.
I think you may be quite correct with that assessment.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Arya’s arrival back in Westeros has her sailing into White Harbor…
Nadia,
Yeah, a lot was made of who was on the burning crosses but since they’re clearly pre-battle, they’re probably just there to intimidate the opposition. There was some speculation it might be Osha but why would Jon/Sansa care about her since they don’t even know she exists? Unless Ramsay did something stupid like kill Rickon before hand.
We can’t lose both Davos and tormund, can we?
I’m sorry you guy, if I had to pick , I would keep tormund a little longer 🙁 it hurts to even say that
Halfman,
Ok, fine on that – Thank god I’m retired 🙂
Just got a dinner call (crazy Spanish eating hours!) so will come back later and briefly give my thoughts on E09 before hitting the sack!
Unless you got it from inside information about the show (scripts, set reports), then it’s speculation, not a spoiler. So, tell us: what is your conjecture about why Sansa lied? Personally, I think that she just does not want them to know that she turned away a large army out of anger and spite.
Well, if this conjecture is correct, then he’ll be the last Commander! And it would add an ironic twist to Jon’s farewell: Edd won’t let it fall down himself, but he won’t be able to stop it from falling (literally and/or figuratively) once he and the other brothers are dead.
Ya’ll, I got a new J-O-B so I’ve been actually being busy/productive the last couple days but you know I’m here for this.
Never has there been more hype or more unknown factors. I’m going to a friend’s house (I had to buy her a bottle of wine to convince her to watch the pilot and she’s become obsessed) to watch it on their 60″ with surround sound.
Dee, you doing okay? Got a paper bag nearby for hyperventilation? 😉
No, I’m with you. I don’t want to lose either, but Tormund for me would be a bigger loss. He’s been such a big piece for what Jon has gone through.
Anyone have a “big fight” feeling in the air surrounding them? Like this could be the biggest thing in television history and set the bar for decades to come?
weirwoodtreehugger,
Bloody better happen
HereBeDragons,
But wouldn’t that be a very arbitrary turn of events? Any “deciding” army should be there because of the actions of one or more of the main characters. An army just turning up and siding with *flips coin* the Starks! would be pretty much Deus ex Machina plotting. That’s fine for reality: but it’s not OK for a story.
Dee Stark,
Same.
Jack Bauer 24,
i’m hoping its that the manderly’s show up and the umber’s join them in turning on Ramsey. I only want LF to come when the battle is won.
Zeus,
Are you from albania?
Simon,
Ginevra,
I hope Ghost gets to eat Ramsey…
grown man, followed a link, ended up listening to the House Stark theme on Youtube, weeping like a baby. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN!? 😛
So do we think Ramsay dies tonight or in the finale?
Dee Stark,
They won’t die.I prohibit it the gods will listen to me lol
Ginevra,
That’s interesting. I missed that interview with Art. I’ve been itching to see some warging from a Stark not named Bran, so I hope you’re right!
Violet Koneko,
You could be right about that. It is highly suspicious that there has been no promotion of the Meereen storyline in this episode at all. We haven’t seen the dragons do anything cool in awhile and Meereen needs to be wrapped up soon so Dany and Tyrion can start heading back to Westoros. So hopefully they do wrap it up soon and in a really cool way. On last week’s episode, Dany did have that not fucking around and about to burn shit look on her face.
No, no, neither of them. ? Jon needs them both.
Oh hell, I don’t like this episode already! Too stressful lol
Jack Bauer 24,
If jon kills him tonight if sansa does it he might last until the next episode
Jack Bauer 24,
I have a sneaking suspicion it’s the final. It just seems like he will weasel out of this somehow. Temporarily, of course. He has to go down this season.
Jack Bauer 24,
I hope it’s tonight, they’ve got stacks to fit into the finale as it is.
Jack Bauer 24,
well until the battle against the night’s king and co
”Fletcher” character’s role:
(We still waiting for him. Probably until ep. 9)
The actor is only expected to shoot for one day- the same day as the above role, on December 16th, in Northern Ireland.
Our speculation: A fat nobleman shifting alliances? If this isn’t Wyman Manderly, the Game of Thrones fandom is being trolled hard with this character. With only one day of filming, clearly the show isn’t doing the whole White Harbor plot, but I think we guessed that anyway. Perhaps this is a meeting of Northern Lords, and this is a more streamlined version of the Wyman character who made such an impression with his speech in A Dance with Dragons.
I think next week will have a big Meereen dragon scene. Tonight will be Greyjoys arriving and the finale all 3 dragons on screen for the first time since Season 4. Can’t wait to see Theon/Yara reaction to the dragons.
Evening fellow Thrones fanatics!
Episode 9 already … I’m not ready!
Seven blessings from the old Gods and the new to team Stark!!
I’m worried about the casualties … I’m mostly worried about Littlefinger! That slimey cocksucker (sorry – I’m re-watching Deadwood!!) I think he is going to do something right out of the Wars of the Roses – that is to sit on the sidelines and then just join the winning side …
Aaarghhh …. I need more wine!!
Dee Stark,
We can’t lose either of them-we need them both.
After all these years–Team Stark deserves a win.
But yeah I’m pretty sure Rickon and Wun Wun are gonna die.
And I’m still worried about Edd.
Wimsey,
Possibility for the Manderly forces to turn up if it’s prefigured in the first part of the episode, as Lord Manderly has been mentioned in the show as somebody Jon and Sansa sent ravens to. Also, he’s been mentioned by Ramsey as apparently on his (Ramsey’s) side, so there is a possibility of a change of sides there.
Other forces, not possible here I think.
(Except that Vale army..)
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Unmm nope. Not okay. Lol!!!
I am drinking a nice New Zealand Sauvignon blanc! 😀
Congrats on the new job!!!!!
Why are people worried about Edd? There will need to be people at the wall when the winds of winter sail in in episode 10
???????????????
Slightly OT:
Has anyone seen History channel’s new series Barbarians Rising? It’s a docudrama about the barbarian tribes that fought Rome that featured Clive Russel & Ian McEIhinney as barbarian chieftains in the first episode. Ian Beattie is in the second & third episodes as Roman commander Varus. The drama part is quite good but as expected the actual history is fudged some for the sake of drama. It’s great to see the actors acting in similar roles though; Russel and McEIhinney are inspiring commanders while Beattie is still a slimy bastard!
only 4 more degrees to go and we hit that mark. my a/c is about to have a nervous breakdown. every store i’ve been to is out of ice. we zonie thronies know how it feels to burn on ramsey’s crosses.
as far as the burning crosses go, i am wondering if jon and davos have sent scouts out and perhaps they are the human torches. no main characters at all but still a message to jon.
a bit off topic here. i remember at the beginning of the season reading an interview from art parkinson (rickon) telling us what his character would be like this season and to keep an eye out for the details.
i am hoping against hope he does not bite the big one this episode. along for all the obvious reasons, it would have his interview make no sense what-so-ever. he hasn’t even spoken a word, yet. what details are there to look for? other than him getting a bag pulled off his head and the speculation that maybe shaggy dog’s head wasn’t as big as it should have been.
i am hoping to see him alive next episode and the episode after. yeah, i know. this is game of thrones. hope for nothing and you won’t be disappointed, dare to hope for something and get shattered.
My guess on the casualties in this episode:
Rickon
Tormund
SmallJohn Umber
Lord Karstark
Wun Wun
My greatest fear is that we lose the final team Dragonstone members too. If(speculation), Littlefinger becomes part of the winning team and sides with the Starks, where would that leave Davos? That is why I fear for the Onion Knight.
I think Rickon will be killed by Ramsey in view of Jon and Sansa, Ramsey loves drama. And despite his rabid desire to get back to Cersei I am not discounting Jaime and the Lannister army showing up. It was after all, one of the Bolton men who chopped off his hand and he did swear an oath to deliver the Stark girls to their home.
Wimsey,
Ooor ..I don’t know about that Wimsey.
I’ve lost a bit of faith in how the show-runners set-up and resolve stories after Dorne, Kingsmoot and Areyastabstark.
I think fans and casual show watchers alike, would pretty much jump for joy if, suddenly from behind or to the side of the Bolton forces, an unknown army entered the battle and shouted out “The North Remembers…”
(if it’s a Fatman on a Clydesdale, you’d have all the fanatics telling their show-mates “O… Let me tell ya who this is…”)
I’m still thinking it’s the Vale army that turns up, most likely at that moment Tormund is surrounded by Bolton spears!
(I sincerely hope it’s Not the Umbers who change sides ;( )
Predictions:
Rickon dies early ->no value to Ramsay other than to trip Jon up
The Vale does not act with the Stark forces->Littlefinger betray a Stark (gasp, heaven’s no!)
Sansa also viciously killed by Ramsay or on his behalf (also no value to him now)
Stark forces are routed, Jon heads north to the Wall & beyond
The Brotherhood who has been missing for how many seasons and just now showed up? 3? Yeah, they get a new leader. In Blackfish’s words last week, “She’s just like her mother.” In addition the number of separate story arcs in GoT has decreased as of late (no data, but there’s been consolidation, numerous deaths). Adding Lady Junior Stoneheart in now works much better than when Stannis was alive, Dorne was getting time, Tyrion wasn’t with Dany, etc. Plus Sandor and Sansa have a connection.
Hey guys I’m on a cruise so sadly can’t watch tonight’s episode. However I am not spoofed to spoilers, being the got fan that I am ill still watch Tbotb twice when I get home. What’s the countdown till the show starts? Anyone willing to keep me updated? Thanks!
Baah, traveling this week and can’t watch until next Sunday, a little before E10. And there’s no way to avoid spoilers for a whole week…grrr
Sansa is 100% safe. In fact, I think she is the safest person on the show besides Dany.
2 hours 35 minutes left to go, roughly.
I haven’t yet, but the next episode is going to be about Boudica and I do want to see that. There really needs to be a big budget feature film about Boudica sometime. *peers at my avatar* Actually, Birgitte Hjort Sorensen would kick so much ass in that role. Make it happen, Hollywood!
My bet, not dying this season at all.
Time is going by sooo slow on this lazy Sunday afternoon can’t wait till 8:00!
https://twitter.com/EnzoCilenti/status/744617588446101504
Enzo Cilenti!
Jaynee D.,
The fact he said that, and we haven’t seen him any more so far this season makes me believe even more in the GNC. Maybe the detail was the wolf head…
I know, I know. It’s unlikely, but I can’t help myself.
Wimsey,
They have mentioned the Mandeleys again and again. Karstark’s, Umber’s and Mandeley’s. If they are there already on one side and switch I would not be surprised. Just two weeks ago Sansa mentions the Ravens sent to them and other houses. Not getting a response does not however mean a choice hasn’t been made. If they hadn’t mentioned them yes machine of the gods but a part has clearly been assigned and foreshadowed. What D&D are doing is keeping the book crowd guessing. If we had seen our lord to fat we would know what was going to happen. It will not however be a complete game changer when it does eventuate. When the Vale rock up it does however put Sansa and Jon in a better position to make their claim and for Sansa to put her strategy in place – giving LF what he wants while denying him at the same time.
Jack Bauer 24,
This was Tyrion’s and Mormont’s owner? Why would we be seeing him again?
Jack Bauer 24,
Oh yeah, totally forgot about Wun Wun…yup, today is the day when the giants become extinct
Red Viper,
Cock sucker?
Don’t you mean “White Cocksucker”!
Chuck,
Most likely he’s with the Masters of Astapor and Volantis in the ships or leading a gladiatorial force on the gates of Meereen.
Recognisable Dragon Fodder! 🙂
JT,
Indeed.
I’d like him to take his time though, a foot one day, a leg the next.
Simon,
Swengen and Wu
Hangdai
Oh dear, Wun Wun, isn’t that just so obvious? I think letting the giant ally die is a trope that Martin can’t escape.
While I think TeamStark will ultimately win, I think it will come at a cost. I can see Rickon being one of the first casualties. The Freys may bluff with Edmure’s life but Ramsay will not bluff with Rickon’s. Other than Sansa and Theon, Ramsay doesn’t keep people as hostages. He kills them. And he no longer has Roose around to moderate his behavior.
WunWun is a big worry for me given the CGI cost. The White Walkers and the dragons cost a lot of money. And as The Door showed with the CotF, D&D are willing to kill off entire species of being.
Although I think Jon himself is safe, those surrounding him are not. I think we lose Tormund and/or Davos. Melisandre should be fine for now, given that she still has to see Arya again per their season 3 meeting. I have been worried about Tormund ever since the re-introduction of the Hardhome guy during Jon’s recruitment drive. As long as he remained the only recognizable wildling, he was safe. I want him to be, but now I am unsure. Davos I have concerns about given Liam Cunningham’s prominence in pre-season press. That is usually a signal that the character has a good chance of dying.
On TeamBolton, I think Ramsay dies either tonight or next week. They need to wrap up this plotline and gear up for next season. Ramsay is not long-term. I think Umber and/or Karstark will be for the chop tonight.
As for Meereen, I guess if there is a named character I am worried for it is Daario. I am not sure where I see him fitting in going forward. Daenerys has other commanders, and she has shown him just how powerful she truly is – can he handle that? I just don’t see her turning up in Westeros with Daario still in tow. I really, really hope I am wrong.
On the other side, I think
I just rewatched Hardhome for maximum hype.
THAT MUSIC! Still sends chills down my spine when that ticking clock type music first starts.
GET HYPE
Snowtime
Good thing I’m not the only one! That tickink clock part always sends me the shivers
Ginevra,
re your spoiler – ooooo, I’d love that!
HereBeDragons,
yeah, thats always been one of those ‘what if’ scenarios that I’ve taken time thinking about.
Tyron Pimpslap,
Yeah, My DH will be watching it and giving me the updates. Its times like this that having a split screen tv would come in handy.
Leuf,
Wow, impressive!
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Excellent. Stay cool! ( thinking about a phx valley view night next week. Up for it?)
The episode already has a 10/10 rating on IMDb based on 1300 votes, even though those who voted haven’t watched it yet. This fandom is crazy lol
And George Georgiou (Razdal mo Eraz/Yunkai)!
https://twitter.com/georgiou1978/status/744597435343863808
Yeah, he can’t lose Davos and Tormund yet. He desperately needs them for the real war. I refuse to believe that either of them will be sacrificed at the altar of Ramsay fucking Bolton. I honestly feel, that if either of them dies, it would gut me as much as Ned Stark’s death. Sigh.
2 hours to go!!! Eeeeee!!!
I think the
I am a tiny bit bummed, that tonights episode wont be Battle of the Bastards alone. :/ So far I was sure that would be the case. But the actor that plays Yezzan(?) (Enzo Cilenti) tweeted that he’s on tonights episode.
Edit: Someone else posted it already.
FRAN,
They gave Rickon to the guy that liked little boys. And Osha and shaggydog to Ramsey. I hope I’m wrong because I hate to think hes been getting molested while imprisoned to him. (I don’t remember the characters name sorry)
SICK!
https://instagram.com/p/BG2jxh-i4Fw/
Love him!!!!
“khivjuA few hours left before the Battle Of The Bastards! This pic is from one of the first day of B.O.B rehearsals. Took us over 4 weeks to finish just “one” of this episodes sequences and then we had 86 hours of photage! Extremely much work has been put inn to make this ep happen – and it’s all for you! Our eminent director Miguel Sapochnik, who also directed HARDHOME, has done an AMAZING job!
Get ready! Hope you LOVE IT!
#miguelsapochnik #kristoferhivju #tormundgiantsbane #tormund #gameofthrones”
I’VE SEEN ‘IT’!!!!
And I can’t believe Pennywise is so mean to those little kids.
GeekFurious,
How do you always see it early wtf
ash,
Blimey! I didn’t realise you lived on the surface of the sun! 😉
I HATE battles and fighting and would normally just fast forward straight through them. Usually all I care about is who’s fighting, why and the outcome and the actual fighting is of no interest to me, but I am soooooo hyped for this – I am gonna watch every second. Have taken tomorrow and next monday off work so I can watch them live and join in the fun on here as it happens. Two hours to go and I’m already super nervous: aaaahhhh what’s going to happen????? THIS is why I like detailed spoilers, I need to prepare myself in advance for any emotional battering that’s coming. We’ve had some great warm, fuzzy, feel good moments for the Northern story in the early part of the series which is not something GoT usually gives us so I’m preparing to have my heart ripped out of my chest, smashed into a million pieces and jumped on for good measure by D&D, just in case. That way anything less traumatic feels like a win!
I need Ramsay to lose badly obviously but to see that he has, so it has plenty of time to sink in before his (hopefully horrible) well deserved demise.
Never mind the Vale army or anyone else, if it’s going really badly I am going to climb into the tv and smash the Bolton forces myself! ? TEAM KICKASS FOR THE WIN!!!! *must calm down; deeeeeep breaths deeeeep breaths*
Hehehe… I didn’t see GOT. I was making a joke… about the movie IT. Based on the novel “Push” by Sapphire.
GeekFurious,
Oops Hahahah sorry!!!
Littlefinger doesn’t have enough control over the Vale to simply take power in the North. Royce was a friend of Ned and wanted to help Robb from the start, so he won’t just go along with usurping power from the Stark kids. SweetRobin sees Sansa as a replacement for his mother, and he’ll do whatever she wants him to do. The only way LF could take control of the North is if Sansa lets him. And, I really hope they don’t have her character continue being under his boot like that.
Flayed Potatoes,
Count me in!
House Stackhouse,
Harald Karstark
GeekFurious,
Hahaha
Took me a moment! 😛
Tormond lives because he’s the only wildling we care about. He won’t die until they’re no longer needed. Davos on the other hand… I think is probably going to have a curtain cal this week. ????
Simon,
SPOILERS SPOILER-Y SPOILT STUFFS LIE BEYOND LINK
A certain speech, the Good Stuff begins appx 3:20
Lulus Mum,
We don’t call it the Valley of the Sun for nothing 🙂
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Congrats on the job 😀 Mmmm paper bag good idea…..I’m currently doing this, although the yay is more of a waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh and there’s still nearly two hours to go! ? Note to self: CALM DOWN WOMAN!
Con of thrones sounds noice!
The terms of surrender are accepted by dany
And they are rejected by jon snow
I guess this is what it means
I am so excited about this episode.
Watching the US open golf tournament. After one of the players hit his tee shot someone in the crowd yelled “KING IN THE NORTH”!!!
GoT is everywhere! I fookin love it!
HYPE!!
Was it Lyanna Mormont?
House Stackhouse,
I though Smalljon just mean the ‘he likes little boys’ comment as a general insult rather than a statement of fact. Karstark does immediately stand up in a how-dare-you-accuse-me-of-that kind of way when SJ says it.
Dee Stark,
86 hours – episode’s gonna be a tad longer than we thought then! Sorry I’m nervous, I gabble when I’m nervous and the quality of my ‘jokes’ is even lamer than usual! 🙁
gnarlytarly,
I’m watching it too and totally missed it! Dangit!
Adhyan Taneja,
I think it is the harpies that will surrender. Daenerys has way too much firepower to surrender to anyone at this point.
I kind of don’t want to watch tonight’s episode, I feel like something really bad is going to go down, like I might have to yell at my tv…. again
The weather has been a bit nutty lately. We’ve had a cold spring that led right into a mid summer like heatwave. I don’t recall ever having so many 90 degree days in early-mid June.
80 minutes to go and my Comcast guide still doesn’t have an episode discription! LOL, this is insane.
Rewatching last weeks episode to build the #hype and it occurs to me that tonight may be the last time we see the Bolton banners at Winterfel in the intro… That will be nice lol
I don’t think this much hype is healthy.
My heart is already racing just thinking about watching the episode tomorrow morning.
It’ll be pretty surprising if I get any quality sleep tonight.
Man, this show has really fucked some of us up.
I have been hyped! Super big time for this episode! I regretfully think Rickon will not last because Ramsay wants to ‘play’. Could he possibly be one of the people burning on the crosses in the battlefield? I have a feeling this is gonna be one of the best/epic episodes of in GoT history.
Lulus Mum,
Thank you. It was pretty funny. It had me worried though.
Can’t believe they scheduled game 7 of the Finals during the BotB! Hoping my Cavs pull it out for the win.
Also right in Hardhome like other people here!
I would like to send greetings to all the european people here, who had already their After-Midnight-GoT-Stay Awake-Coffee like me!
I think also Rickon is dead as GRRM based his novels on the Wars of the Roses, so I think Rickon is based on the Princes in the Tower and they are as we know dead.
What do you think about Shae possibily no more appearing?
So excited for tonight! ! I hope team Jon and Sansa prevail. I am a fan of both and want to see V for team Stark.
Also tired of the negatively in regarding Sansa. Haters gonna hate!
Thanks– just wanted to get that off my chest.
So stoked!!!
Markus Stark,
Yeah, I feel like I’m not behaving like a rational person. Just one more hour (ish) to go!
I still think there will be no meereen in this episode. If it was it would have been in the episode. Meereeen battle only need to be around 5 minutes and can be handled in the final.
We trust a paper that had multiple mistakes when it came to game of thrones.
Only 2 hours waiting and we know the truth
Very excited for the episode tonight!!
Just hoping that, this probably being the most “hyped” episode of all time, people don’t get overly critical after watching it
Love live the Stark House!!
Winter is Coming!
Gods, I hope so! When the flayed man was stamped over Winterfell a few seasons ago, that was brutal. I need to see the direwolf again. Something I noticed this season is that the direwolf sigil is still in the credits when the camera pans over WF. It’s laying on the ground, broken in half. It was there in past seasons, I just never noticed. Way to twist the knife, GOT.
Lulus Mum,
Hahahaha!!
Kevin,
Hi Kevin,
I think we will see Meereen tonight–but only for 15 minutes or so…..here’s hoping! I really want all of this to be at Winterfell. So excited!
Replay of hats week started. Only an hour to wait.
We still haven’t seen the scene where the window gets blown in in the great pyramid from the trailer.
The sad thing is that they think Littlefinger showing up and saving the day (ugh, could there be anything more odious than Littlefinger being Gandalf to Jon and Sansa’s Theoden / Aragorn) will be a surprise. The prospect of this happening really, really worries me.
Dorian,
Who says that LF will save Sansa? She threatened to kill him when they last met.
“I told you not to trust me”
Did we forget that line, somehow? This is ALL his fault.
Dorian,
Hence we need other lords to change side during the battle.
…But to be fair English isn’t my native language,
I think Rickon will be on one of those crosses.
The more I read all these “but so-and-so can’t die because…story…plot armor”, the more I hope GRRM & D & D whack a Stark or Targ not named Rickon.
That’s amazing. I can barely draw a stick figure.
Chad Brick,
***giggle***
Now that is just plain mean. 😀
First ep I haven’t a clue what is afoot.
House Stackhouse,
Smalljon was very entertaining. In 10 years time he and Lyanna Mormont could have made an amazing power couple. But he picked the dark side and is going down, although I wouldn’t mind if he gets a few more telling-it-as-he-sees-it observations in first 😀
Violencersei,
Hi VC *waves* where abouts are you? I’m in London (UK) 🙂
A Stark A Stark A Stark!
I just want to see the Internet actually explode!
That being said, a surprise death of a major character would sure breath some fire into things. Ned’s death was long ago, and another round would put some doubt back in place.
Interesting idea. Maybe that is the final army posters were wondering about.
Just in case the rumors are true and there is a scene tonight during which Yara and Daenerys make out, I’d just like to go on record as having already written several hundred pages of fan-fic about that very thing.
Huh, did I just say that out loud? 😉
Lulu’s Mum! This is a screenshot of the Waif when she’s about to kill Lady Crane and before she turns back into the Waif. Is this the boy in blue that you tracked for so long? The Olyvar doppelganger?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hcm0i3vz1hrryf0/TheWaifsPenultimateFace.png?dl=0
Also, to everyone: Does anyone have a good resource for the sigils of the Northern houses?
Stark: Direwolf
Bolton: Flayed Man
Karstark: Silver Sun
Umber: Chained Giant (breaking free)
Mormont: Bear Rampant
Glover: Fist
Manderly: Merman with Trident
Cerwyn: Battle Axe
Mazin: Blue and white chequy with gold plates (like checkers)
Hornwood: Moose
Arryn: Falcon and crescent moon
I believe these are all the ones mentioned in the show that could likely show. I don’t think the Tullys (fish) will. It would be fantastic if a black gator (black lizard-lion on a grey-green field) showed up for House Reed, but that’s just me fantasizing. Any others?
THIRTY MINUTES!
She Wolf Maria,
Don’t hate on the haters who hate. Can’t love everyone that would be bo-ring 🙂
28 minutes to go….wheee
There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. After tonight, if the Old Gods will it, there will be!
I’m raising a tumbler of scotch in honor of all of the loyal Northern soldiers and Free Folk who will inevitably fall tonight, hopefully in victory. Then I’m pouring another one for myself, because I’m going to need it. The emotional highs and lows of this episode are going to be intense.
See you all on the other side, folks! When we reconvene, may the Direwolf fly over Winterfell once again!
Chad Brick,
You know what, I can’t argue with that. Enjoy the show!
less than 30 minutes
Miss Stark,
22 now
Markus Stark,
I agree it fucks with us hell I woke up after only 3 1/2 hours sleep (day sleeper) and for the life of me have not been able to get a little nap this evening cause I’m too hyped now.
If I were you I’d just stay on the Wall here and get the rundown after it airs so you can sleep more content. I know spoilers zap some fun out of it but in this case you will still get enjoyment I believe.
Jared,
Cheers! (lifts vodka & limon)
I am sooooo ready………….! Who will it be that helps Jon and Company?
Will the Umbers turn on Ramsey?
Will the Knights of the Vale show up for support?
I’ve always thought Jamie might help out…..with this battle….but, if not, maybe to face the White Walkers. What does everyone thing?
#TeamJon
She Wolf Maria,
Love Sansa, rather motherly toward her.
DRUMS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJkg-p2K3eI
THE HYPE IS SO VERY REAL. 15 MINS!
Dire wolves. I want to see a pack of dire wolves appear in the midst of battle and treat Ramsay like a chew toy.
Ginevra,
Hi honey! *waving like a mad thing* Yes I think it must have been him (her?). We only got to see the side of his face in the previous episode and he seemed clean shaven, but was obviously being sneaky with the grunge-like facial hair. He was a Pearl Jam fan hundreds of years before they even existed 😉 Similar size, build and hairdo (on head) to Olyvar, who I would imagine was a dead man walking from the moment he made enemies of the Tyrells and because he knows so much about LF’s dodgy dealings. That’s why I was so surprised that there was a looky-likey noseying around. Waaaaaahhhhhh 20 minutes to go ?
T-minus lucky 13 minutes!
Wonder what Sapochnik cooked up in Meereen?
Jared,
Love that! 15 more minutes. Enjoy folks!!
Ginevra,
Can’t edit my reply to you but you forgot House Pingu (the penguin in my avatar)! 😀
Jared,
Sláinte! Guinness here, same as every Sunday.
Eleven minutes!
Lulus Mum,
LoL! How could I?
Blanche Holstein,
newbietothegame,
Catspaw Assassin,
Cheers to all of you! 🙂
10 minutes until either the most epic episode ever or the greatest disappointment ever!
After all, we’re on the Internet. There is no other possibility.
10 minutes!!!!
10 minutes…my heart is pounding. The things this show does to me, LOL.
10 minutes to go! Time to pour a glass of wine!
I just finished watching the last episode. Knowing what I know now, I realize it really is quite excellent. And now -it starts
Enjoy the episode, everyone.
Only 8 minutes to finish your pre-watch checklist…
And don’t forget your deep-breathing exercises. 🙂
See y’all on the flip-side.
Almosttherealmosttherealmostthere
Episodes are posted on GO/NOW at 8:57, so 4 more minutes!
GeekFurious,
Nope… I’m just expecting some good battle scenes!
It’s Next Week I’m more invested in!!! 🙂
Blanche Holstein,
Hi Blanche–love you avi of your kitty! I have 3 myself. Little monsters!
Miss Stark,
Good plan. I’m going with a chocolate stout.
6 min
Enjoy the episode peeps!!
I refilled my beer glass. I probably gonna need more later.
OMG IT IS TIME!! Enjoy the show everyone. Go team Stark!
THE HYPE IS REAL!!!!! I’m so excited and nervous at the same time! I want to know what happens but I don’t want any of the good people to die! UGH! Casualties can not be helped 🙁 🙁 🙁
ash,
You must be in Phoenix…me too…
Angela,
11 in the morning here. Stone cold sober watch
Just sold off my cosmetics stocks. Eyeliner sales in Meereen will drop drastically in the near future.
Enjoy!
By the way, this episode never leaked. HBO had this baby on lockdown. I’m doing this live and without a net.
This is what I’m feeling like (warning: language & Bill O’Reilly):
https://youtu.be/-Gh1lTcwdGY
The clock is ticking…almost there now! Can’t wait to watch it, and hoping the reaction is spectacular!
I wish the adds would just end
Angela,
Why type of beer are you going with?
Oh my god.
weirwoodtreehugger,
WWTH – I have a great respect for BHS but I would want Boudica to be played by a celtic actress!
1 min ooooooohhhh!!!
The Got beer Seven Kingdoms.
OMG. HERE. WE. GO.
Aidan Gillen on opening credits. Isn’t that a big spoiler?
It’s here!!!!!
Report what’s happening, please. Tried to get a nap but no way. It’s 4.00 a. m. here and the sun is about to rise.
Ahh The Stag!!!
(Please Kill Her, Davos)
Angela,
Seven blessings! Good choice…..it is TIME!!!
Thanks. Here we go!
ohh yeah baby!!
OMFG!
Wasn’t night time when Dany arrived last episode?
Simon,
We totally do – but I don’t think we will. If Arya’s plot told us anything, its don’t expect anything too complicated and you won’t be disappointed.
Oh snap, Kit came before Emilia in the opening credits!
Snap! Tyrion’s calling Dany the Mad Queen.
Get Jon Snow on my screen!!
Oh my god!!! Here comes the Battle of Fire!
The cavalry has arrived!
HOLY SHIT
Bloody Hell !!!
Sapochnik is a beast!
Can we be done with Meereen? Get to the juicy stuff
That’s the new title for tonight’s episode.
Dragons!!!!! Yes!!! They are gorgeous!!!
Lyanna Mormont is trying to kill Ramsay by staring.
Great opening! Oh my.
So the Slavers would be the “terms rejected.” Who will accept?
Draginz!
HOLY SHIT that was awesome!!!!
Digging trenches.. Night Lamp confirmation?
Arya can protect anyone – Sansa
Is hbo now down for anyone else?!? I’m gonna throw something. Not working on tv, laptop or ipad!!!! What awful timing!!!!!!
Why is Sansa still not telling them about the Vale? Come on
My computer froze! Im devastated! Now I have to wait until 9:00!
When it’s been 20 minutes and HBO Now is still down.
HBO is giving a clinic on how not to eliminate piracy.
Sansa sucks. Period
Sansa refusing to tell Jon about the army still unreal
“Jon Snow is not a king.” Not yet. That’s next week.
Why is Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale when she clearly doesn’t want him to fight without more men? Like really, is there any reason for this at all, other than the writers wanting the battle to start before the Arryn army arrives? This is all so stupid.
Is the actual battle going to be the last ten minutes cmon man.
What the hell Sansa just f*#4ING tell him!!
This is the dumbest drama for drama’s sake.
I can’t handle the suspense.
Mel says he TPTWP one episode then she says she doesn’t know lmao ok.
Dragons125,
My HBOnow keeps saying ‘unknown error, try again later’. ??
That argument between Jon & Sansa pissed me off. Maybe if you fucking tell him about the Vale army, he would do things differently!! Seriously, she fucking sucks right now.
So no Greyjoys?
Dragons125,
Mine is too, WTF???????
Sansa blows
Sansa whyyyy are you being the fucking worst. NOW is not the time to keep this a secret when you’re so opposed to his ideas.
Yara, I see you flirting with Danaerys…
Ahhhhh, Theon & Yara are already meeting with Dany & Tyrion. YES!!!!
Half over and this might already be my #1 episode ever!!
So she really didn’t tell him about the Vale. And it makes sense how? Fucking Sansa
TEPhillips,
This. I’m stuck waiting too. SO glad I subscribed.
Oh god.
May I suggest that the reason why Sansa is not telling Jon about the Vale army is because she is actually not certain they will show up ? After all, Baelish is the one who offered and she has ample reasons to doubt his word.
So she tries to delay Jon without promising anything… That is my interpretation, at least.
The battle is upon us…someone hold me.
Rickon should have learned to zig-zag.
I can’t fucking believe Sansa didn’t tell him. She wanted the Vale to just ride in? Sorry, but she’s the worst. There’s ZERO reason to have done what she did.
About 15 minutes of the episode left, and no actual Battle of the Bastards yet… wtf…
Someone kill that fucker Ramsay!!
anyone having trouble with hbo now?
Jon is Azor Ahai!!!
That was awful. 🙁
the spiders great balls of fire,
Yeah, we all are. The twitter reaction right now is hilarious.
the spiders great balls of fire,
Getting error message
This music…wow!!!
So Art was bullshitting about him and Ramsay?
For the first time, I admire Robb more than Jon. He was a better battle commander.
GO JON GO!!! That’s my boy!!
the spiders great balls of fire,
Yes. And I’ve been on hold with customer service for 36 minutes.
I’m about to go ape shit I’m getting an error message and then sometimes it will load with no sound on fast forward
So who were on the crosses?
Rickon had no dialogue this season lol.
This is brutal…my heart can’t take much more.
Eagles…..
Welp, they’re surrounded. Oh Gods.
Jack Bauer 24,
As I said over and over – no one, no one that mattered.
Sansa got so many people killed
Nadia,
Thanks to the old goods and the new!
HBO NOW is finally working.
Sansa sucks!
Oh now. Jon, kill the fuck out of this guy!!
Never have I been so happy to see Littlefinger!!!!
Yes!!!!!
Wow I was determined to be positive about Sansa telling Jon because of course she would, but instead she lied, cost endless lives, so the show could make her ride in like a hero?? UGHH
So, looking at Sansa makes Jon…not want to kill Ramsay?
Come on, Sansa, finish him!!!!
Called it. The most obvious non-surprise surprise ever – hey, it was done in Season 2 and Season 4 so might as well do it in Season 6 too. What a failure of imagination.
Oh Wun Wun 🙁
SLAUGHTERED FOR PIG FEED!
BURN IN HELL RAMSAY YOU PIECE OF SHIT!!!!!!!!!
The Battle of the Bastards. Followed immediately by the Feast of the Bitches!
Perfection.
That was so awesome.
I loved that episode so much.
Dog Food. Was just wrong about which dog. 🙂
Nadia,
Shhhhh, we’re not supposed to think about that.
I cant stop shaking i cant stop shaking holly shit this cant be healthy :O
Sean C.,
He probably thought she will want to finish Ramsay her way. And she did.
They made Jon look like a fucking incompetent fool so Sansa could look like a “boss ass bitch”. Fucking bullshit.
So the show had Jon basically be useless until Sansa came and saved the day while lying to him?
Ok. So epic.
Aw, man…that was so good.
So. Good.
First reaction: Unbelievable battle sequences, spotty storytelling. Spectacle over substance.
Ok Guys What happened?
They did not disappointe – WOW
BunBunStark,
Properly speaking, they made them both incompetent, just in completely different ways.
The “winner” in this was really Littlefinger, whose plans are all going swimmingly.
aabe,
Robb was surrounded by experienced commanders like the Blackfish and the Greatjon.
Jon didn’t have any experienced commanders and had to plan his first open field battle by himself, while his sister withed the Vale army from him and left him with little options. He actually had a decent plan in place, considering the circumstances, but his brother dying wrecked him (as expected).
Wow I am so so so disappointed. After so much “THE BEST EPISODE EVER” and it was all so pointless. What crap pandering.
So Jon is just brainless labor while Sansa is Joan of Arc. Ok. Sure. It all makes so much sense.
HOLY CRAP THAT WAS AMAZING!!!!!!
While I hate Littlefinger having a savior moment, I’m glad that those poor Vale knights had an opportunity to actually do something in the wars.
Sure Sansa go ahead and smile as you walk away from Ramsay. You got your revenge and your home back. Don’t worry about your dead brother or all the fucking lives that were lost because you never told your brother about the Vale army. JFC, I’m furious.
What an amazing episode. The best episode of the best show in television history.
If you are complaining about this episode, find a different show to watch…..
yes, Yes, YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my god that was amazing!!!!!!! Haven’t caught up with comments but let me just say that this episode was all of the five Episode 9s tied up in one!!! Oh my……..
That was pretty damn good.
Best fucking episode ever!
That was just perfect from start to finish.
I might even say best hour of television ever. Who doesn’t agree?
Am i the only one who liked the Dany destruction the most?
And Jon climbed from his grave of bodies and achieved his destiny.
Quite enjoyable.
RiP Wun Wun!!!!
R&V&D on the loose!!
Grey Worm the bad ass!
So now we know what Sophie means when she says “boss ass bitch.” She means she swoops in and saves the day by running off to LF while bro-bro does all the heavy lifting and almost dying and shit.
You can tell the difference in episodes when they’re stringing the story along versus throwing everything all in. It’s the one thing that irks me about this show. Otherwise, fantastic episode! I’ll keep watching till the end.
I loved Tyrion/Dany interactions this episode. As someone who hopes A+J=T, I could view their scenes as a bit like he’s nurturing his little sister, teaching her about the game (next episode promo).
(Things could go horrible wrong anytime, though. Can’t say with Targaryens).
No need to worry who will get Dreadfort now. Sansa is going to pull it apart brick by brick, like Bloodraven did with Whitehalls and Ned did with Tower of Joy.
I still can’t form coherent thoughts right now (except i’m still pissed at you sansa, come on) or type without shaking, i think i’ll need a rewatch
You are in the great game now…and the great game is terrifying…
RAMSEY the BASTARD = ALPO!!
HOLY SHIT
I’m completely speechless. That was absolutely amazing
I’d say that made up for last week.
So in the north we have Jon Snow, Davos Seaworth, Sansa Stark, Melisandra, Littlefinger, Tormund Giantsbane…. And soon to be Brienne, Podrick, & Arya.
The pieces in the north are coming together nicely….
Seems like some people look to only complain about the show these days. That was a great episode.
So Jon actually came out looking somewhat decently. He tried and planned the best he could given his limited resources. The only thing he did not anticipate was Ramsay’s game with Rickon.
Meanwhile, Sansa came out looking like a moron for hiding the army from him. Annoying character. She was anything but a boss ass bitch this season. More like being an ass and bitching to Jon because muh numbers, muh army (while causing the loss of many lives and hiding the Vale army from him).
Jon’s short scene with Melly was the first scene he had this season without Sansa post-reunion. That’s a shame for his character development. That scene where he was being run over in that pile of bodies was the stuff of nightmares.
Btw, what happened to Lord Karstark?
Jack Bauer 24,
Was thinkin the same thing. I thought it was 2 known characters
Now that Ramsay’s story is over, what consequences, exactly, did Ramsay suffer for being a “mad dog”? Literally the only reason he lost, in the end, was because of Littlefinger, who was planning to attack him before he knew anything about him. Raping Sansa didn’t matter, because her escaping didn’t matter. Flaying Lord Cerwyn, etc. didn’t matter, because, indeed, most of the North refused to rise against him. Killing his dad cost him not a single man. If the show’s writers really think this was the fulfillment of Roose’s frequent warnings of what Ramsay would suffer if he didn’t rein things in, I fail to see how.
Sansa just let thousands die needlessly because she couldn’t be bothered to tell anyone about the Vale
Sansa, you are awesome!
Jon, you are awesome!
Littlefinger, thanks for the army so Jon and Sansa can keep being awesome.
Fuck you Ramsay. Hope the dogs ate your balls before you died.
Sansa, thank you for being awesome.
Meereen, thank you for being awesome.
Dany, Tyrion, Asha, Theon, Grey Worm, thanks for being awesome.
Rickon and Wun Wun, thank you for being awesome, and rest in piece.
But most of all, David, Dan, Brian, Dave, and of course George, keep being awesome!
Jon, kick some ass!!!
If you ever wanted to see what medieval warfare looked like…. Damn. It was so much chaos to take in, definitely needs a few re-watchings.
I cheered dragons. I cheered the Vale. I cheered the Stark banners back where they belong. I cheered hungry dogs while a steely-eyed girl watched then smiled. You want Lady Stoneheart? Boom.
More mentioning of wildfire and where. No foreshadowing there [whistles}
Loved the Yara-Dany Appreciation Society and their rolling their eyes at the simple men.
Fuck you, Sansa.
Fuck.
You.
When does Tyrion say his “great game” line?
The Bastard,
People are complaining because the show has completely fucked up Jon’s character development ? It went for dramatic ending over good story telling.
Wow. Some people thought THAT was disappointment!? I don’t care… if you’re one of them, you suck!! That was the most thrilling thing I’ve seen in a TV SHOW ever!
very well acted, filmed, and edited
but, very predictable and lazily written (This has plagued the entire season. The show could have done things in a much smarter way.)
What an episode…wow. I was so hoping for Ghost to chow down on some Ramsay face, but I will take that satisfying, completely fitting end for Ramsay. So impressed with the episode, overall. I’m not even gonna think about any nuances because it was that good. Have a bad feeling that Jon and Sansa aren’t gonna have a very healthy relationship and I hope he’s on his guard with her. Especially with Littlefinger lurking nearby. That battle was so intense, gritty and in-your-face with the action. Half the time I couldn’t tell if it was Smalljon hurting Tormund, or the opposite, and that freaked me out for a minute. Surprised at how much I liked the Meereen parts, too. Was hoping for them to show the Greyjoys’ grand entrance with their fleet, but still awesome. Not gonna lie, got choked up when the Stark banners went back up at Winterfell, and of course with the death of Wun Wun. He went out like a BAMF.
Alright Sansa fans. What you got to say for your girl now? 🙂
Also I will say it looked like Jon was getting trampled to death and then the music damn I thought he was dead again and spoilers were wrong but wow that coupled with the horses spreading out around him I do believe he was supernaturally protected!
HeHeldThatDoor,
Nothing with plotting that mediocre could be the best episode ever. What a shame that the spectacle wasn’t backed up by something other than totally lazy writing.
I will say, I would be down for Dany/Yara. She’s clearly superior to any of Dany’s love interests to date.
Sansa is at least somewhat responsible for the slaughter of at least 1500 men (and maybe some women). Well done, m’lady!
White raven in the promo – Winter.Has.Finally.Come.
In other news, who here thinks Arya is gonna kill some Freys and that scene of them and the Lannisters is foreshadowing??????
That line from next weeks preview was intriguing…
Davos “tell him what you did to him”!
Seems he was.
Wildlings were probably the bulk of those who died on the Stark side, right?
ACME,
What, you mean an actual nuanced idea that perhaps maybe Sansa is able to think and come up with her own game plan to win this? And perhaps she says nothing because it might not work? Geesh
Oh but I loved that ending. Oh my yes
Jehphg,
With poison soup?
My initial thoughts…
EPICNESS!!! I was teary-eyed with excitement the whole episode.
Really love the gritty portrayal of a medieval battle Miguel brought to us with awesome action sequences.
My favorite sequence was Jon Snow on foot pivoting and slashing away left and right while dodging horses and coming seconds close to death so many times but at the last second being saved by a comrade in arms.
Goes to so in battles like this you not only need to be skilled in fighting but lucky as well, all those arrows messed him too.
Dany’s stuff was good, her dragons were amazing but damn what an amazing warrior Jon Snow is.
Jon Snow has been elevated yet again, his legend continues to grow and his accomplishments on the battlefield and at being a man of honor are unprecedented.
I have no doubt the north will unite behind him and Sansa and together they can battle the white walkers.
Really good episode, I guess I can give D&D a pass for withholding resources from Arya’s, Riverrun’s and The Hound’s payoff scenes in that last episode if they were needed to bring us this amazing episode 9.
Ate his fuckin face off!! Ramsey the bastard is no more. Satisfied just doesn’t seem like as good enough word for what happened.
Pretty Damn Enjoyable :o)
Can see the haters already moaning about Jon been ‘Crap’ and Sansa been a ‘Bitch’ ..but that episode played right to me.
(following soon by “Why didn’t Rickon Zigzag?” & “Couldn’t Wun-Wun have carried a Tree-club) lol
If all you are going to do is complain after an episode like this, I feel bad for you.
I hope you find happiness in life.
Jehphg,
Count me in! She should kill some Freys at Riverrun, meet Hot Pie, cook Frey Pies, and feed it to Walder.
Best episode of the show, Jon Snow was a legend among the blood and mud like Russel Crowe in Gladiator.
“My name is Jon Snow, commander of the Armies of the North, former Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and loyal servant to the TRUE Lords of the North, the Starks. Brother to a murdered brother, son to a murdered father. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.”
But Sansa could of at least mentioned it, I’m guessing she wanted to be the “one” who gets Winterfell back?
Sean C.,
I was thinking the same thing……zig zag~
I cried through the whole hour. I usually watch again right away, but I can’t…I can’t…
Awful wonderful horrible fantastic!
Well THAT was an exciting episode! Well done, cast & crew!
It was a fun amazing episode. I loved the battle sequences.
But the storytelling wasn’t great.
Vyse,
There are plenty of us falling all over ourselves over that episode.
Hell, I don’t even like battles, but damn.
I’m glad it wasn’t all battle, too.
I knew we were in good hands with Sapochnik at the helm!
Jack Bauer 24,
YES. Loved all Dany scenes. Even overlooked her constant smug expressions, because we got to see the dragon trio wreak havoc.
Other than that… I mean the visuals of the battle were great, but based on a storytelling aspect……….. I just reaaaaally don’t like Sansa 🙁 and everything was so predictable. Results of the battle just like blackwater and castle black. Unless Sansa’s plan was to decimate both armies (crackpot conspiracy theory: does Sansa hate wildlings? :O) and gain her own victory (and Littlefinger’s)… Maybe my standards are too high with this show now, but I just hate when people make stupid decisions that don’t make sense. Ugh. Did I mention I don’t like Sansa?
Nadia,
Him trying to breathe in the middle of that army charging at the end was terrifying.
Looks like they’re talking about the Vale army next episode. I hope he tells her what’s up.
ACME,
That’s still stupid. The mere possibility that the Arryns might show up completely changes the strategic calculus.
Throne-To-The-Wolves,
If you honestly think battle plans don’t include “expendable, acceptable losses,” then you must live in some kind of fairyland.
In my humble opinion, Jon did not look incompetent. Merely inexperienced, which he is. He never sought to be a leader, never wanted it. He was not trained to be an amazing tactician (Hardhome and the whole wildlings debacle are proof of that) and he improvises, to the best of his abilities. Which get better and better but it is a learning curve.
As for Sansa, she could/should have told Jon about the Vale (unless she was not sure they would actually come…) Considering Baelish is the one who mentioned them to her, I would not be amazed to learn she was almost as surprised as her brother to see them
one of the best episode of the series i still think harhome was better but this one have more emotion good news THE NORTH REMEBER! bad news sansa lies to jon until the end and rickon died…so who is the head of house stark now?
THAT WAS AAMAAAAAZZZZZZZZIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!
For me, Sansa’s choice made perfect sense. She knew Ramsey would play a trick on Jon and he would be like “fuck the plan, i’m gonna get that little ramsey”…and of course, the Valley would go after him like the wildings and the mormonts. Is he would have stick to the plan, the Valley would arrive just in time like they planned…but after their talk at night, Sansa knew that Jon have no idea how sick is Ramsey, so the only way of having a chance, was no to tell him. C’mon, she even knew Rickon was a lost cause…we all though that she learn the game from Littlefinger, but she learned from Ramsey, she lived with the enemy…Jon know about the white walkers, but this was a totally diferent game.
Pigeon,
This is what I was yelling at the damn screen a few times! Sooo angry. But I knew it would end this way. They hung the freaking gun so…
Well if the Freys get slaughtered next week Jaime is there…I’m nervous. Is that the “controversial” thing Javi was referring to this off season about Jaime?
Mawk,
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??
😛
ACME,
Jon isn’t there to be the brains. He’s the brawn. Being the smartest guy in the Night’s Watch isn’t that tough of a job to hold, since they’re primarily unwashed peasants and criminals.
But Jon’s out in Big Boy Land now.
What’ll really be comedy is if Sansa owes Littlefinger for the save. Dude was in debt to her for knowingly giving her to the Boltons. I loved the episode with the caveat that if she somehow has to marry LF to pay him back for riding in with the cavalry, I’ll be ticked.
Ginevra,
🙂
Flayed Potatoes,
Sansa said, if you asked me I would have told you – he plays games, he fucks with peoples heads. Jon should have known that and not let Ramsey get to him. …..but poor Rickon….
I bet Jon never finds out Sansa was lying the whole time. I don’t trust her at all could easily see her turning on Jon.
The Bastard,
What, because I’m thinking about theme over spectacle?
Dorian,
Saying lazy writing is lazy writing.
And what did Tormund do to Umber? Did he eat him?
I don’t know maybe! I’d pay good money for some pies though ;D
FUCK YES.
Jon Snow’s character arc is perfect. He is learning out in the field (literally and figuratively).
Besides, it was established in Season 1 that Starks and quick tempered and not the brightest.
Mr.Bungle,
Except she didn’t tell him about the Vale and just sent him and his army to get slaughtered.
Wow! That battle scene was amazing. The extended shots of the camera tracking Jon as he moved through the battle were absolutely breathtaking. I know some people were already moaning about the Vale troops coming to save the day as deus ex machina, but as we had Sansa writing them a letter two episodes ago asking them to come to their aid, how anyone can claim this is beyond me. It was set up over the course of four episodes and the moment they arrived had me jumping up and down waving my arms in the air like a lunatic. Yes! What a moment! And that shot of Jon in that sea of bodies, all of them gasping for air, was beautiful. Heart breaking and beautiful all at once. I was seriously scared for Tormund the whole time (none of the others actually, I felt they were pretty safe throughout), but when he was getting a beating from Umber, that had my heart in my throat! So fantastic though, the whole thing, start to finish. I’m a bit scared for Davos going forward; the way he was looking at Mel at the end there and holding Shireen’s stag was making me feel nervous for him.
I’m a bit anxious about Sansa’s character development as well. I know she has been tortured by Ramsay, but the way she smiled after he was brutally killed (which he totally had coming, don’t get me wrong) seemed a bit wrong. I can’t imagine Ned smiling after the gruesome death of one of his enemies in that way. Maybe I’m being too hard on her; in general, I like Sansa’s development into cool fierce leader, but that struck me as a little off. I also wasn’t sure why she was having such a go at Jon and berating him for not including her in the meeting, when she was right there and could have spoken up had she felt the need to. I’m all for female empowerment, but she was there and could have taken it; was she waiting for Jon to ask her advice, the girl who’s never been in battle before? Again, I am not Sansa-bashing. That moment when she arrived with the Vale troops, I had a huge “You go girl!” moment. I like the character and after everything she’s been through, I think it’s about time she hardened up the way she has and taken control, but it was just those two scenes that struck me as a little off.
Meereen. I haven’t even mentioned that. I love the Dany-Tyrion dynamic and I thought the CGI of her and the dragons was exceptional. I loved that sequence and though I had a little gripe at the time about the other two dragons choosing that exact moment to break free, I realise now that they probably heard or sensed Drogon/Dany and that’s why they chose then to break free. It finally feels like Dany is going to be on the move at last!
All in all an outstanding episode that in my mind, lived up to its hype! I can’t wait to watch it again tomorrow with my husband.
Jack Bauer 24,
That was pretty damn awesome….. as well as the conversation between her and Yara
That was intense. I’m going to need to calm down before I’ll be able to sleep.
Dee Stark,
WHOOP WHOOP!!
Sean C.,
Lol was thinking same thing
I think Arya is going to kill Jaime…
That is the only motivation that works for me. It gets Sansa into a dark place and I’m not happy that otherized people like the Wildlings died for machinations, but that’s okay, I’ve liked many a darker shade of character before as long as the show/book they’re part of doesn’t ignore it.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
The Bastard,
Couldn’t agree more. They made every minute feel like 10 (Bear Island style ?). When the Stark banner dropped down the wall I cheered! ? WINTER IS COMING.
Plotlines and wonderful script aside, can we just praise the full-fledged medieval field battle they staged for an hour of television?! That alone deserves immense respect.
Jumbo,
She might not have known whether or not they would come in time.
Oh good lord, what is wrong with (some of) you people?
Sansa DID NOT KNOW if Littlefinger would come to their aid. She wrote a note. She did not hear anything back. Jon was determined to forge ahead with what they had. Even if she could have told him, all she could have said was ‘maybe if we wait a while, Littlefinger will come help’. Meanwhile Rickon would still have been Ramsay’s captive.
Sansa and Melisandre were back in the camp while the battle was happening.
Obviously the Knights of the Vale and Littlefinger arrived in the nick of time.
Sansa was not playing games with anyone, or wasting lives. She was hoping someone would come to their aid.
What is not sinking in with people? Why do people feel that Sansa Stark is suddenly some sort of Machiavellian vixen who plays games with everyone’s lives? What show are you watching!?
The Bastard,
This
She’ll make it to the end and everyone will die around her. But hey, she’s just sooooooooooooo badass, right? Hope LF fucks her over big time.
I don’t understand the idea that Sansa cost a bunch of lives on their side. If the Vale army was there from the beginning, the Bolton side still would have had equal numbers at worst, and obviously the battle would have unfolded differently. As it was, they were helpless when the Vale knights showed up. Nor did Sansa know for sure they would show up.
Clearly, she should have been upfront with Jon from the beginning, but the end result was still about as good as they could have hoped for.
Sean C.,
If you’ve read the books, there’s a pretty nihilistic bent to them as well. I spent the first one waiting for Sansa to get revenge on Joffrey and Cersei and of course, it never happened. People aren’t killed or raped to make a point or fulfill a satisfying storyline. It’s what makes the books such a frustrating but still compelling read. Anything can happen. You can’t be sure the bad guy will get his comeuppance or even a confrontation. And evil acts are committed without reason, as in real life.
In the preview you can tell that scene is Jon is basically calling Sansa out on not trusting him, and she looks very dubious.
And then the Godswood scene is Littlefinger and Sansa – for all those who said he looked “surprised,” I’ve always said he never looked surprised to me. He’s just clearly coming across Sansa in the godswood.
Sansa is going to end up with LF, because that’s where her arc leads her. The question is, is she going to betray Jon? LF wants her, and I don’t trust Sansa to choose Jon over LF. And how does Jon actually trust her?
Loved how Tyrion was saying ‘commerce has returned to the markets’ when the city(including the markets) was getting bombarded. Funnier than the drinking jokes we had to suffer (seemingly) throughout the series.
Cameryn,
This
yes! PIES PIES PIESSS
Nadia,
Well if you forget your crush on Jon for a second…then, yeah…it was a really great episode.
Vyse,
Fine:
– No explanation for Sansa withholding the Vale army from Jon – they did it for cheap drama, which brings me to the next point:
– the “last minute charge from unexpected reinforcements which saves the day” is a tired, tired trope in fantasy and its even more tired in GOT given they’ve done it twice before in the show.
The Bastard,
The only dumb thing Jon did was charging at Calvary alone which I believe he was commiting suicide. There is now way around the fact that Sansa is responsible in large part for what happened and I think it’s great storytelling.
So the big twist is…Sansa,NOT Deny/Cersei, is turning into Mad Queen.
Whatever Sansa is doing beyond of my comprehension and it is not boding well for her in the leg run it seems. Also it seems like LF’s fate is clear. I would be surprised if that in the woods scene ends well for him.
But Jon being stampeded and suffocating that’s some stuff from Melisandre’s TPTWP checklist.
Action A+, story C-, for me.
I’m going to be that book person and say that he’s not actually the brawn, but k, boo, I get that it’s D&D. I get it and have suffered through many a character ‘streamlining’
Bastard Roose of the hounds last meal! YUMMMMMMMMMMMMM
So I guess the people being burned didn’t matter. All that guessing for nothing.
That episode was awesome despite the usual an army saves the day ploy. Meeren was finally awesome for a change! Pouring one out for my homey in Wun Wun
Just finished.
Awesome episode!
Only hate is for Sansa! Listen to me! I have an army but I won’t tell you anything. Jon: what should I do? I don’t know… Just not what Ramsay wants.
She screwed Jon and the wildlings.
Biatch!
It was one of those episode where there’s enough to process, I forget things. For instance, I’d forgotten, at least briefly…
We got to see Viserion and Rhaegal flying, again…and with their brother, Drogon. I audibly cheered when I saw those two flames coming out of the cave, or whatever that was.
Ned’s enemies didn’t rape him brutally and repeatedly over the course of several months. 🙂 Sansa had every right to feel liberated by the fact that the man who had tried to victimize her had met his end.
I’m really pleased about how GoT is really demonstrating the power of its female characters in a world dominated by men. Sansa, Arya, Dany, Yara, even Cersei to an extent. It’s actually really refreshing to see in this genre after decades of fantasy novels run entirely on testosterone and battle.
Well that was definetly at the top of the list of #9 episodes! I really have no idea how GOT is going to top that episode! Best episode of the entire series. Damn I’m hype right now!!!
Now that I’ve calmed down a bit (and have basically washed my hands of Sansa Stark), I can express how much I did love the episode.
Dany and her 3 dragons were magnificent. I’m so glad Tyrion talked her down from her Mad Queen desires. Loved Dany and Yara forming a pact as queens. I could ship ’em.
See, Mel, your vision came true: you did see the Bolton banners falling to the ground! And you sorta walked the battlements of Winterfell. Seeing the direwolf banner once again fly over WF did my heart good.
After seeing that carnage, I’m glad Ghost was nowhere to be seen. We’d have been down to 1 wolf otherwise.
My Tormund & Davos made it out alive!!! Praise the Gods. I was sure Smalljon was about to finish off Tormund before the Vale arrived.
Poor Rickon. I knew he was going to die by arrows, but that was heartbreaking to actually watch it. That poor kid never stood a chance once he separated from Bran. That’s going to haunt Jon to the end of his days. Couldn’t save his little brother.
Jon, baby, you risked life and limb for Winterfell. It is yours, TAKE IT!!
It really was a damn great episode. Can’t wait to re-watch, but I will fast-forward Wun Wun’s death. Fuck that was sad.
Ginevra,
Sansa’s smug face bothers me more than Dany’s ever did. I’m getting very bad vibes from her in this episode.
Wow wow wow! Big smile on my face! That must have been the best episode ever.
Not a single bad scene everything worked flawlessly and that culmination! Damn!!
Seems this divided the people very much and all because of Sansa. I say give Sophie her first emmy nom for this one. That was the best female performance of the season surely! She rocked…. And YES… of course she should have told Jon about the Vale… But you have to remember she is still close to Littlefinger… feels unsure about reactions.. isnt even SUE they are going to arrive! On time at least… Of course the deus ex machina army is a well known plot device. just look at Lord of the Rings… Yeah its true… In real life that army could have arrived late… But Sansa set it up.. Kind of. Cant wait for next week with her and Littlefinger now 🙂
And all emmys for mr Sapotchnik for that directing especially the entire battle sequence. Sheer perfection! You could SEE the fear in Jon. It was raw and real. Just amazing!!
Sean C.,
I know right?
Mr.Bungle,
Are we just supposed to ignore that Sansa’s lies got people killed, when she was berating Jon for not including her but SHE was lying to HIM?
Jon’s clearly asking her about her lies in the preview. He knows she kept information from him, and he’s talking to her about trust. So it’s not like he’s probably thrilled with her.
Jack Bauer 24,
he’s got it coming the little shit, honestly
My only nitpick of this episode…
No Ghost!!!
Ghost should have entered the chamber with Ramsay and in some kind of way shown the viewer he is taking on the alpha roll and has them eat Ramsay.
Or came out of nowhere and took down one of the fleeing Boltons when Ramsay galloped back to Winterfell. IDK, just a little appearance of any kind would have been nice but yeah I understand animals are a pain to work with…
My only nitpick heh…
He asked her why he shoudl delay when he’s not expecting more men while she was bossing him around about waiting for more men. Why the fuck did she not tell him right there and then? It would have changed everything.
Why complain about Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale? To make a character believable they must be human, they make mistakes, they feel insecure. Wishing something would happen and not being fulfilled does not qualify as ‘lazy writing’ or ‘plot holes’.
Seeing people’s reactions (not necessarily here) makes me stay away from the fandom even more. Some complain this episode relied little on great dialogue, others complained that the past episodes had “nothing happening” because it relied on dialogue.
Seeing Dany riding Drogon was amazing, like seeing Aegon reborn, and the battle, wow, I’m still trying to recover from that!
rhymeswithweak,
Do you think she marries little finger?
The Good:
Ramsey~Most Apropos Death Ever
Dragons as WMDs Holy crap, I loved the naval siege breaking methods here
Yara + Dany Hells yeah, good to see some power b!tch bonding
Battle choreography at WF, bloody, gory, muddy and as realistic as you could want from a melee
Davos found the half-burned stag; Shireen will get northern Justice.
The Bad:
GODAMNIT NOT RICKON HE’S JUST A FUCKING KID. We all pretty much knew it was coming but that didn’t make it any easier to watch~ notice he died *exactly* as Ygritte did in S4 E9??
The All Too Predictable Vale army Hail Mary. I wanted to see the Manderleys switch allegiances, boo.
Wun Wun 🙁
Sansa, I get you want to be respected as a leader in your own right but FFS, DON’T WITH HOLD VALUABLE TACTICAL INFORMATION.
WHERE THE HELL WAS GHOST???? WINE TASTING IN THE REACH??
I am now embracing the “there’s something in the WF crypt/R+L=J” theory.
So much to unpack in the preview…I’ll save that for when I’m semi-coherent.
Nadia,
If you think that made Sansa look good I don’t know what to say. They made Sansa look selfish and heartless. Yes her fans will make it seem like it was great what she did but anyone looking objectively has no other choice but to say she’s in the wrong here.
And where the hell was Ghost? They’re blowing all the budget on the dragons
Sorry, but I feel obligated to point out that I think this is absolutely, positively, without a doubt *completely* wrong. All due respect. 🙂
Jon is still family. Littlefinger is the man who gave her to Ramsay.
I have no doubt which one of the two she’s going to betray eventually, and it’s certainly not the former.
Battle of the Bastards – was pun for Bitches walking all over you! Was a woman’s ep tonight to show strong women – Strong Dany, Strong Yara and Strong Sansa – a very interesting set up they are making here – You are a sly lot!!!!!! Are we being played as fools – I think so!
I’m laughing at the complaints about predictability and lazy writing. The battles in LOTR were predictable. They were also epic.
Do people remember that this is a tv show? Not a huge Hollywood blockbuster. A tv show. If you think another show is gonna come close to GoT in scale in our lifetimes, keep dreaming.
BTW, if you’re tired of the army arriving at the last second to save the day trope, blame GRRM. He did it with Blackwater and Stannis at the Wall.
LL of Darkwater,
LikeX10!
1. Screw Game of Thrones for being so awesome. I literally can’t watch other TV shows now because they aren’t even half as good.
2. I can see why there are only 14 episodes left in the series. The North is almost completely assembled. A lot of characters are meeting up. Once that happen, it is a sprint to the finish.
Because she didn’t know. She sent a raven hoping for help and word never came.
She didn’t know.
She. Did. Not. Know.
Hodors Bastard,
Yay for GW starting to get interesting, yay for free dragons and Davo and Tormund being alive and boo for Wun wun dying 🙁
Best medieval war scene in tv or movie ever?!
Worst storytelling in 5 seasons?!
How can they both be combined!
Show has become really predictable the only thing that was unexpected was the exact manner in which rickon would die but we all knew he was already dead. Also does Ramsay suck with a sword, he avoided using it throughout the whole show except to execute stannis men. Sansa is an asshole. I like that Jon isn’t the flawless hero of the story he probably led to massive losses by being reckless, although you can also see it as him shedding his fear of death, and accepting it. Hopefully this will be a huge change in his character.
Either way great visuals bad storytelling, I guarantee I can predict every scene for finale.
Bran will cross the wall, night king will get through because of mark.
Cersei will light great sept on fire killing everyone.
Arya will kill walder frey.
Qyburn will kill Kevan and Pycelle with the little birds.
Varys will meet with Ellaria Sand along with QoT.
If anything surprises me in finale I will be very happy but I doubt it.
Sean C.,
Well I mean, he lost Winterfell and got eaten to death by his own dogs. I’d call those consequences. 😉
Jon didn’t seem inexperienced. Perhaps a little naive at charging for Rickon and then not retreating immediately. However, Jon was seriously undermanned. Thanks to the Boss Ass Bitch. And he was seriously ill-informed. Thanks to the Boss Ass Bitch.
I’m so excited to see Bran in the preview!!!!! At least he’ll keep Jon well informed.
Cameryn,
That is not even a remotely good excuse, I’m afraid. Even the possibility of the Vale’s arrival could have had a MASSIVE impact on their strategy and planning. There’s no issue with Sansa framing it as a last-ditch effort, unlikely to succeed. Instead, she kept it as a secret so it could be a pleasant surprise? Or worse, so she could be the hero. Or even worse yet, because she had no regard for the lives of Jon’s army.
“They might not have come” doesn’t work for me. Even if they didn’t, as long as she was straight forward about that possibility, what would have been even the slightest harm in sharing her attempts with Jon? Especially after she scolded him like a child for not having enough men – she was the only one aware that this could be addressed with the Vale in the first place.
So, seeing Sansa on her horse next to LF…. definitely meant to look as though she had chosen her side. Her secrecy, smirks and clear joy at getting her vengeance make her look darker than any feathered dress ever could. It makes me wonder if this will also be how her book arc proceeds. I can’t help but think about how early book Sansa wanted to make people love her and wonder if later book Sansa will not be concerned about such things at all. The show has her wanting to make things happen and make people do things whether they love her or not.
Finally, the preview from next week with Jon telling her they have to trust one another and giving her that sweet kiss makes me wonder if Sansa’s being set up to commit another betrayal.
Louis,
Um, what? I’m livid about what they did with Sansa.
Flayed Potatoes,
That’s what i’m saying…she choose not to tell him, because she knew Ramsey was going to do some trick on Jon and it would work…remember “they were going to wait until Ramsey’s army were tired”, but Ramsey use the rickon trick and Jon went for it, making his army (wildings and mormonts) go on board before time.
If she would have told him about the Vale, it would have been wildings, mormonts and vale going after Jon after the rickon trick.
She knew people would died, but it was the only way to twist Ramsey’s tricks.
Hands down one of my favorite game of thrones episodes to date, Bloody brilliant episode!!!!!
eyes where completely glued to the screen at all times, can’t find fault with this master piece.
Mereen and the North killed it, Amazing pacing.
Ginevra,
He went all Thenn on him. 😛
You realize that they all just spent weeks on the road trying to recruit a whole bunch of armies to very little avail, right?
“Hey, Jon, let’s wait another few weeks and see if Littlefinger turns up” is not going to happen in life, ever.
That’s my only beef with the episode. And it’s not even a beef really, just disappointed a bit in how Sansa just the night before was bitching at Jon for not consulting her or asking her opinion or whatever and then here she is, high on the hill with Littlefinger.
I got so pumped seeing the Vale ride in. That was badass but her Brother and all these people who swore to fight for HER home and they are at the slaughter. Of course, we need the drama but this fight for her was so personal that everything, and everyone, else became expendable. I understand her need for vengeance against Ramsay but she made a deal with the devil, someone far more dangerous, to get it and at the expense of so many. She could’ve lost both brothers.
Of course, we know she is traumatized and broken in many ways. Still, for someone who wants to be heard she isn’t opening her mouth to say much of anything.
Great episode! Intense as hell. Loved the Dany/Tyrion conversation and Yara/Dany was awesome. Seriously, I am not a Dany fan (Yara for all the power!) but that was a great moment. And I don’t think a ton of Emilia Clark’s acting but she was solid in those moments. Alfie Allen is always good but props to Gemma Whelan…she was the total rockstar tonight.
SO happy Davos, the ultimate badass, and Tormund are okay. I was so worried. I hope Davos kills Melisandre. He just breaks my heart.
Cameryn,
This is just dumb excuses now. The people justifying her for not telling him are just reaching for straws.
She was bitching at Jon for not including her in the planning and she stood there and lied to him about her activities. WTF.
Sansa not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale only makes sense if she planned to let Jon and his army get slaughtered before LF arrives with the Vale and backs her up as Wardeness of the North. She had to get rid of Jon and his force first.
I love what they are doing with sansa. She basically told jon she has to protect herself. Her aunt nearly threw her out the moon door and lf gave her to ramsey. I don’t think it’s crazy that she doesn’t really trust jon and Jon didn’t return her trust when she advised him before the battle. She made the littlefinger move, the move that gave herself several outs both of which left her in a decent position. You all want her to be good littlefinger but that isnt how it works. Chaos is a pit baby.
You can tell from the preview that Jon confronts Sansa about that point, story isn’t over yet, have some patience. While the Vale army coming in is a bit of a trope, it doesn’t make it automatically bad. So unless you make the same criticism about Tywin in saving the day back in season 2, you are being a hypocrite.
Jon wasn’t going to listen to Sansa even if she’d told him about the Vale knights. He’d already made up his mind. After all, she’s just a girl. She did warn him about Ramsey, did he listen? No.
I thought it was the best episode of the season by far…Dany taking on the masters with her dragons, Greyworm’s deft execution, poor Rickon’s death (oh, that shot of his already still body peppered with more arrows will stay in my mind), the Greyjoys and Dany, Davos finding the wooden stag….all of it was breathtaking. I usually find battle scenes boring after a while but this one held my interest because Jon is believable after going through the wilding fight at Castle Black and Hardhome. Sansa doesn’t understand. He *has* faced things much worse than Ramsay Snow.
How I loved seeing Drogon’s little siblings fly free. ❤ And Yara and Dany, great scene! So sad for Wun Wun, but what a boss. Bye Ramsay, will miss your face (hee), but I know there’s a bigger villain around that will make you proud! Oh Davos……be careful. Tormund, you are like a Tazmanian devil and I love it. Lyanna…..may you rule the world. And Rickon…..sorry. Just sorry.
Louis,
He was charging toward the archers, which was his best chance of not being hit by the arrows.
While it may not happen the way it did tonight in the next book, Tywin and the Tyrells (kinda sounds like a band) rushing in at the last minute at Blackwater was from the books, and Stannis’ army rushing it at the last moment at the Wall happened in the books.
Cameryn,
Doesn’t matter if she didn’t know they were coming she refused the army to begin with. Either way she is responsible.
gewa76,
I fail to see how GOT not being a blockbuster should excuse it from criticism when its being painfully, painfully predictable. Only the most obtuse, oblivious viewer would not expect the Vale army to show up and save the day, and that’s exactly what happened. There’s way to do that that’s more dramatically effective – but just as with Arya’s plotline last episode, they took the most obvious, poorly conceived route.
Cameryn,
I agree, it’s not something to freak out over… at the same time, just because she didn’t know doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have at least gave Jon the option. Plus, she was all “You won’t here MY point of view!” and then doesn’t mention she might have another few thousand men coming?
Anyway, aside from that minor thing (yes, it’s minor, people need to get over it) that battle was AMAZING. The Saving Private Ryan of medieval battles.
Who thought GreyWorm Cutting those 2 fuckers throats and the not dipshit in the middle was not badass?
This was fantastic TELEVISION!!
Ser Pounce FTW,
I think it’s pretty clear Sansa’s arc is with LF, not with Jon. And if that means not being true to Jon, I think it’s clear they will do that.
Mr.Bungle,
No, because the Vale wasn’t there to charge when Rickon died. She could have just told him the Vale was ready to attack, so Jon would have adjusted the strategy he had set to delay things as much as he could.
Cameryn,
let me explain it to you the way you do for other people:
It. Does. Not. Matter!
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I know that, that doesn’t excuse it happening a third time when there’s nothing mandating it to be so. Have them arrive before the battle starts. Have the battle won outright. Its like they’ve got no idea how to write a victory without unexpected hordes of reinforcements. Its a tired, boring trope.
Dorian,
… you’ve read The Winds of Winter already? You lucky bastard, knowing how the battle would turn out before the rest of us puny humans!
Oh wait. You’re just guessing that you know what GRRM has written. Never mind, then.
Tyrion’s best season 6 episode by far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kit Harington should get an emmy award for Battle of the Bastards
Man, that episode gave me heart palpitations.
Can’t sleep now, way to GD HYPE!!!
Actually, all due respect but, not seeing this line of discussion anywhere else I’m checking right now, I’m genuinely thinking that the entire Machiavellian attitude toward Sansa is simply coming out of this comments thread and being reinforced by the conspiracy theorists who keep bringing it up.
I genuinely do not understand what show many of you feel you are watching where you are seeing Master Manipulator Sansa positioning pieces on a playing board, pitting Jon against Ramsay against Littlefinger, and so forth. She’s a strong, capable young woman, but she’s still a young woman. Barely at the top of her teenage years. She’s been victimized for as long as she can remember and she’s finally *starting* to reach out of that again.
I really think you’re reaching for something that isn’t there. At all.
Mmm, yes! That felt good. I wondered if Davos wasn’t thinking about throwing Mel over the battlements, Myranda-style. If looks could kill, right?
Louis,
She doesn’t care. She appears to still be the stuck up, self centered wanna be princess (or rather queen) as we saw her first season. I don’t care who I “offend” with my opinion on this fictional character. Sansa had me worried this season but I can’t stand the sight of her after tonight.
What does everyone think Jon will do when Davos forces Mel to tell him about Shireen as shown in the preview? Banish her?
Beric’s Moonlight Nights,
Rickon was dead the minute they yanked the bag off his head. It was just a long goodbye :/
I’m upset w/ Jon falling for Ramsay’s games after Sansa warned & warned him. But I also completely understand the human emotion behind falling for it. Which is what Ramsay was counting on, of course. If it hadn’t been for Sansa/Petyr bringing in the Vale army, Jon & his army would all be slaughtered. Ugh.
On the other hand why wouldn’t Sansa entrust Jon with the info? She wishes to retain some power, I suppose, but still, ugh.
Other than all that, Jon is a fooking badass! 🙂
Why do people have a problem with females being in power in the show? I have seen on various forums how a big complaint is that there are so many powerful female characters in the show right now.
Are men so insecure with their own masculinity that they can’t accept females in power?
I am afraid I have to disagree with you on that one.
The possibility of an army is not the same as the certainty of an army. Until the troops are effectively there, ready to participate, including them in the calculus is, in my opinion, foolish.
Even if the troops you are awaiting are the greatest guys in the world and you know they are determined to help you, any number of things could happen to them on the way : they might get delayed, get lost (no matter how ridiculous it may seem, it has actually happened in real-life battles), get attacked/killed by other forces before they reach you.
Nevertheless, I do agree Sansa could/should have told him. For trust’s sake…
However, if Jon’s initial number of troops was not high enough, if they did not really have a fighting chance, then engaging at all was a mistake. Not a terrible mistake, not a grotesque mistake, but a mistake still. The type of mistake I would expect from a very young man who is still learning his craft of leader, who is still getting used to being the head of a House and who was thoroughly and monstruously enraged by his opponent…
Basically, I am trying to say it is not a zero-sum game : it is not “Jon is a loser/Sansa is amazeballs” or “Jon is da best/Sansa is shite”. They both could have handled it better, could have communicated more. But for two extremely young people who are still dealing with heavy-duty trauma and never, in a million years, thought they would ever end up in such a situation, they did pretty well. And I hope they will get better still.
Right, because that would have been the perfect time for her to say “And by the way, I’m hoping that Littlefinger will show up tomorrow.” But she didn’t. Because… she… did… not… know… Ugh, it’s exasperating to keep seeing people think otherwise. I should stop before I lose my shit. 🙂
SansaStar,
t.
Funny, the other day DH and I were talking about some battle he saw in a movie, and told me about this shield box that traps the men inside. That was amazing – as was the horror of it all – bodies piled on top of bodies, alive, dying, dead, the screaming, the chaos….its all so horrible I’d think people would just decide not to do that any more. Sadly this is not the case.
I think Jon now knows why he was brought back. Or at least has an inkling…
That was just incredible.
Some folks just hate seeing a woman in control of her own fate. Sad.
Nadia,
I don’t really think that is what people got out of it. The episode ended and I felt
Jon was still the bravest and most decent person in Westeros. Jon came out on top, Sansa not so much. She’s lucky Jon is who he is.
Sansa apologists need to remember she told Jon nothing.
She could have had an army before and later she was asking for an army and waiting for a reply.
She told him nothing.
So Tyrion was able to reign in the mad Queen. That’s bodes well for her. I really enjoyed the dragons creating havoc. Greyworm is the bomb!
Jon’s fighting skills are amazing. That bodes well for him. Looking forward to next week!
Awesome episode. Showed what a badass Jon is and how strong Sansa has become.
Reading people complain about how this episode played out makes me wonder if they are just casual viewers.
Ramsey’s arrogance and mindlessness clearly caught up with him, I can’t believe people have questioned it. The little smile by Sansa at the end underlined this. After how long we have had to see his evil that ending was soooo satisfying.
Great battle scene, was awesome seeing Jon just tear through them. Sad to see the giant die 🙁 but very pleased the rest of the gang were OK. Rickon was always going to die sadly, it now brings up the question of who the Lord of winterfell is.
Dany and they dragons, that whole part was just awesome!
Another great episode!
I forgot to talk about Meereen….
I hope Dany and Yara scissor <3
Wasn’t there supposed to be a Lord who gave a speech during which he changed allegiances (that everyone thought was gonna be Manderley)? What happened with that?
Jumbo,
Why would she need to “get rid of” jon? Jon hasn’t shown any interest in ruling so much as a coat closet in 6 seasons.
Dorian,
There is a reason still yet to play out. Sansa will deliver something to LF. Having given away what he really wants to Jon. (Something Jon doesn’t want)
That’s my cryptic theory and I’m sticking to it.
I’ve tried really, really hard to be a Sansa fan. It’s just way too much work, isn’t it? I’m okay with not loving Dany since she’s not a Stark. I can acknowledge that George probably intends Dany’s character to be good, and I like her even if she is a little mad. But I don’t feel bad about not loving her.
So this is where all their penny savings went this season.
Totally worth it.
The Meereen scenes seemed like a spectacular summary. Understandable, since they managed to fit both battles into one episode.
Jon Snow reborn once again, this time emerging from a womb of human bodies, living and dead.
Too many parallels between the two Promised Princes (both the Westerosi and Essosi versions) this season. I so hope we have a twins situation at the Tower of Joy revelation, whenever that comes (next episode, hopefully).
On an unrelated subject, even though the White Walkers didn’t appear on this one (of course), Vladimir Furdik (this season’s Night King) was still in it as one of the stunt performers (Winterfell?).
What a hard worker for the show – almost as committed as Ian Whyte, I guess.
The Bastard,
Bingo!
Hands down my favourite episode of the entire show. Congratulations to the director, the actors, the writers and everyone involved. This was absolutely terrific. I am completely speechless.
KG,
I didn’t say anything about Winds of Winter, so why are you bringing it up?
aabe,
I thought I was the only one who is freaking excited about it.
HOLY F’IN S*** THE BEST EPISODE I EVER WATCHED!!!!
Ignoring the negatives that don’t make Sense
I can’t get over how amazing this episode was
start to finish !!!!!! Wowowowowowowowowowo
JON MY MAN
What was that preview about..what did Melissandre do to “him,” ostensible Jon?
Danny,
I totally concur.
And before people say Sansa didn’t know if the Vale was coming, she was very confident at the parlay with Ramsay telling him he was going to die tomorrow and then leaving. I think she knew.
Cameryn,
If it was all perfectly understand, you wouldn’t have Jon talking to Sansa about trust in the preview. Because she DIDN’T TRUST HIM. FFS. She lied to him about how she learned about Blackfish. She lied about turning away the Vale, then she lied about asking for them, then she yelled at Jon for not including to him but CONTINUED TO LIE.
Jon is going to ask her about lying to him. It’s not like he’s going to be totally on board with what she did.
The real battle is coming. WINTER is coming..the Long Night is coming…
The hurt feelings over Sansa not telling Jon is inconsequential in the big picture…
(might ought to spell check that inconsequential shit)…
I’ve had a few beers…
Clob,
I’m telling ya, I was hoping she and Jon would be a team and tht everything she been through would make her a more compassionate bolder person but the way she was coldly detached at time and smirked at others especially after watching the dogs eat Ramsay I have a feeling they’re making Sansa into a semi antagonist and this is why Sophie says she wants Sansa to die lol. I mean, you get satisfaction out of demise of someone like Ramsay but it should not make you gleeful.
ash,
Re Davis line from next week I suspect Mel doesn’t gave to bring Jon back any more.
I know, right?
Ramsay: Their army isn’t large enough for a siege.
Wun Wun: Boom! Boom! Boom!
Me: Motherfucking Wun Wun!!!!
You’ve seen episode 10 and know the entire context of that conversation? Wow. Where did you see it?
The Stark temperment has been established since season 1 of the show.
Jon’s grandfather and uncle showed it when they rushed to King’s Landing and got killed for it. It happened to Rob who called his banners and went South without a real game plan. It happened with Ned who lost his head for it.
But now you want Jon Snow to not use emotions when his “brother” is killer?
What you are asking for goes against almost 6 seasons of established plot.
ygritte,
Totally agree. If the writing was supposed to show conflict in Sansa they’re not doing a great Job of it it’s one sided. Also this it makes no sense for her to do what she did unless she continues backing LF if next week she decides to screw over LF it would be awful writing and even dumber logic.
As far as Mel I’m so intrested in Jons decision Mel brought him back but he can’t afford to lose Davos either. I wouldn’t want to choose.
ygritte,
There’s more to come. I suspect it’s not Jon who is being played.
I’m curious to see what Jon does about the Mel situation next episode.
Also,
HOLY CRAP MEREEN!! I went into it wanting there to be no Mereen and it was incredible!! The dragons are terrifying and beautiful.
So…fair to say that the overarching theme of this episode was about loyalty compelled vs. loyalty earned? They struck that note multiple times.
Did we see Karstark die? I think I missed it, if we did.
…I feel like there are a lot of people in here who are either not women or who don’t understand exactly what women go through when they’re brutalized.
That’s about the politest way I can put it. I’m surprised at the reaction here — legitimately surprised. It’s boggling me. I have no idea how anyone could say Sansa’s actions are anything but understandable.
If the Knights of the Vale had shown up earlier before the attack then Ramsey wouldn’t of held the battle outside the castle wall, he would’ve retreated and it would of become a siege which we know can last months. Sansa knew that she needed Ramsey’s army out in the open for the cavalry to clean up. Yes she could of told Jon but what if Ramsey sensed that there formation was a set up in a way to stall for something to happen etc. Anyway point being Sansa (for all her down falls in previous seasons) deserves more credit for that decision making she knew alot of people would die, but it out weighs the loss by ultimately reclaiming Winterfell
A few weeks? Did you not just see – they showed up mere hours after the battle began. She knew where the army was located.
Sansa lovers can defend her until they’re blue in the face, but I’m afraid there is absolutely no logical justification for her actions. She made a mistake, one that may have cost many lives. On top of it, she was constantly arguing with Jon, while being the only one keeping secrets.
It doesn’t sit well with me. Her actions are not justified, whatsoever. They only paint her as naive and self-motivated. It’s a shame, because ever since her time in the Vale I had really taken a liking to Sansa, as she seemed to become much more savvy than she’s shown us here.
The Bastard,
Bingo!
Gonna give my opinion about Sansa 9not that anyone cares but it will be good to get it out)
I’m pissed at her, REALLY pissed at her. I’m pissed at this particular mistake she made. do I get where it came from? Yes. Even if she doesn’t admit Ramsay finished breaking her, she was abused and tortured through years of her life by several different people including a family member trying to murder her. So I get if she has trust issues, HUGE ones.
It DOES NOT change the fact that she gambled with lifes not her own, she wasn’t risking her neck in the battle, and the people that were making military decisions (including Jon, but not restricted to him) had the RIGHT to know information that could affect those decisions, so long story short, i see why character wise, she is in a very traumatized place and commited a HUGE mistake. It leaves a really sour taste in my mouth and leaves me pissed at her, but I still love Sansa, and I honestly hope that she learns after this to trust at least in Jon, for her sake and for others as well
Sansa did not know Petyr and the Knights of the Vale were going to show, hence her hesitation about engaging Ramsey to begin with. It’s common sense, we saw no response from Baelish to Sansa. I’m laughing at all the people moaning about Sansa holding out on Jon.
While Sansa did not tell Jon she requested help from the Vale, it’s clear she was just playing her cards close to the vest and didn’t want Jon to plan as if Petyr was going to ride in, seeing as their last meeting did not go so well.
gnarlytarly,
Maybe but I’d be disappointed if they shove this under the rug it’s to good a plot point.
Seriously, there are some people here basing Machiavellian Sansa theories on comments from the *preview* for next week with her and Jon. Perhaps Jon just says “why didn’t you tell me you wrote to Littlefinger” and she answers “because I didn’t think he would show up,” and then he tells her he should trust her more?
I wish people would enjoy what we see more often. So many times I see people disappointed because the show doesn’t meet what’s in their minds perfectly!
Lionthing,
“Women bad. Men good. Grunt, grunt look I have a neckbeard.”
Frokkie,
Heh
ACME,
This. Thank you.
Cameryn,
You’re being deliberately obtuse.
So it all makes sense to you that she lied to Jon, she kept lying to Jon even when she was flipping out about not having troops, she yelled at him about not listening to her advice but kept lying to him?
Genius! Ok.
I must explain that the episode is fantastic… And Sansa acting more like a lannister than a stark is very intriguing.
No problems with D&D or anything.
I just think this changes Jon’s opinion of Sansa. She had extremely useful info for Jon who has shown to have the best interests of all people in mind… especially against the white walkers.
Saving more wildlings who know this threat would have been nice.
Sean C.,
Thornund did it.
Or was that Umber.
Lionthing,
People understand what happened to her that doesn’t give her immunity from criticism.
Me, too. I hope that he lays down the law for how he won’t ever be sacrificing any people to her god, and that he won’t tolerate her if she ever suggests that sort of thing again. But I’m also hoping that Mel will be remorseful. She seems positively morose.
LOL, Wun Wun….the last of his kind. But the best! His loyalty to Jon was admirable, and I’ll miss his one-liners. ❤ I would have loved a Wun Wun/Edd road trip. 🙂
I kind of like that they are taking Sansa into more of a morally grey area. No more lily-white perpetual victim. Complicated characters are more interesting than pure good guys or pure villains.
KG,
Yes, this woman is grunting.
Try again.
So predictable this whole plot.
Maybe it’s because we didn’t lose anyone we weren’t ready to lose (or more than ready to lose.. looking at you, bastard), but I’m perfectly comfortable believing that Sansa kept the Vale info from Jon because she didn’t know if Littlefinger was going to come through for her, and because Jon really didn’t give her much opportunity to contribute/matter to the war effort, which is made clear when he falls into pretty much the exact trap that Sansa predicted the one time he let her offer input.
Of course, the main reason for setting up the secrecy was plot device/shock value (for Ramsay’s army… not us… it was known), but perhaps more people would be okay with it going down the way it did had they done a little something to develop Jon’s hatred/distrust/animosity of Little Finger and the role he played in Sansa’s abuse. Maybe I’m forgetting a scene where that was somewhat discussed, but I think that Jon and Sansa dialogue got cut with the part about Jon’s resurrection and the existence of White Walkers.
Yes. I love how Greyworm struck down the two Slavers who sold out the third to save themselves.
Just because she wasn’t sure doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have mentioned the possibility. She… did… not… know… that the Blackfish would come but she hoped he would and she mentioned it to Jon. Given that she mentions one and not the other points to a different reason for her not saying anything about it than uncertainty. And yes, she may have thought that Jon would not agree to the help but considering how few men he had, it’s hard to imagine Jon saying no to the offer. So her reasons are far more calculated. I’m hoping we find out what they really are.
I don’t think for a second she’ll betray Jon. Whether she’ll “betray” Littlefinger, or not, is another matter.
that was a Fucking BRILLIANT hour of Television..
and I am not gonna let negative nancys ruin it so that is all I am gonna say and I am gonna keep this buzz until next week
whoever thought the Vale WAS NOT going to show up wasn’t paying attention lolol
But how do we know she didn’t know? It would seem kind of stupid for the Vale forces to stop wherever Sansa is hiding out, pre-battle, to pick her up so she can watch as they charge. As the Vale army moved in, Sansa and Littlefinger are on the hill watching. This could all mean nothing and maybe we aren’t supposed to read anything into it but she watched with LF, as if this was the plan all along. I think she knew he coming. Could be wrong and maybe will be proved wrong next week but it all felt like she knew what was going to go down. Maybe not the carnage, maybe not Ramsay’s army surrounding the lot but she wasn’t on that hill watching with relief. It just felt like she knew they would be there.
selena,
Yes!!!!!!
So fucking good !
That was well worth the long wait!
Louis,
I think Jon and Sansa are solid.
LF is gonna get played by Sansa…IMHO
If Sansa truly believed the Vale would not show up its because of her refusing LF to begin with either way she’s in the wrong IMO.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I agree.
Cameryn,
I’m not framing her as a master manipulator, I’m framing her as inept, inexperienced, over-confident, and short-sighted.
While she may have had a “master plan” in keeping this information hidden, I much more suspect it was an inexplicable blunder.
Jack Bauer 24,
I’m with you on that. Had goosebumps in the first scene. Filed battle was spectacular but plot was a massive pile of shit. So many loopholes in the plot. Just lazy n shoddy writing….But seven blessings to Miguel Sapochnik, stunt team and the special effects team
Goodbye to the last male heir of house stark. Those banners are meaningless unless jon is legitimized as a stark.
Goodbye House Bolton….officially extinct :))))))). Let tormund have the dreadford or Karhold…let him marry Alys Karstark.
And last Sansa didnt have any feelings when rickon died … i hate her character shes cocky and stupid.
The list of extinct houses continues
Baratheon, martell, bolton,….
A truly amazing gift to us fans. Miguel did it again!! Everything about this episode was absolute fire. I’ll write up a breakdown soon but for now I’lll say thank you to the cast, crew, D&D and of course George.
Sansa and Jon did me so proud. When the Stark banner appeared I was got so emotional. Sophie and Kit utterly slayed in this ep.
Sansa squaring up to her abuser was pure poetic justice. And she became infinitely more intriguing as a result. It reminds me of LF’s comment about keeping your hands clean whilst murdering.
Exactly. Sansa asked for help but did not know if it was coming. Nothing to see here…
Sean C.,
I want to know too. At one point, I mistook Jon for Karstark (with all the mud)
Flayed Potatoes,
It’s the same, they could have wait a whole day for Vale, Ramsey would have pull the trick and Jon would have done the same. What Sansa did was actually keep up the original plan…she knew rickon was a gonner, so she wait ’til the army were tired and then make the move.
By the way, i get your point. I’m just explaining why it made sense to me. I’m not saying this way is the RIGHT way, just my impression of what i saw.
KG,
#MasculinitySoFragile in this thread rn
If Jon was making the same mistakes there would be 0 criticism I guarantee you. 0.
^This! Btw, re poor writing and predictability. We sit here dozens of us and together we figure out what’s going to happen. And we guess right via joint conversations. But the average viewers don’t over analyze and to them, it’s freaking good. I think I will try not to come here next season in order not to get spoiled.
I’ll only add my “positive feedback” about this episode in this post:
Meereen was amazing. Yara’s dialog was so good. So amazing to see the three dragons together.
The best part of the WF fight was Jon on foot battling the knights on horseback. Brilliantly shot.
Wun Wun gave his life opening a door after an episode in which another giant gave his life holding a door shut. That was fitting.
That shot of Davos on the hill by the pyre was one of my favorite shots in this series. Amazing.
Yes please, I still believe in Sansa, as angry as i am with her, I might be foolish, but I hope
How about Mel going from Debbie downer to smug priestess again! I knew we were going to see that! Her visions were correct!!!!
I don’t know any spoilers, but they have laid the groundwork for Sansa to betray Littlefinger at some point.
Right now Littlefinger controls The Vale. But he is in love with Sansa so he can’t think clearly when making decisions about her. They have also shown that Robin is technically the ruler of The Vale. And Sansa can control Robin more then Littlefinger can.
This all sets up Littlefinger being betrayed at some point.
gnarlytarly,
I can totally see this happening, she’s the only one who has a better relationship with Robin Arryn than Petyr. And the lords of the Vale like Yohn Royce like her, we know this.
Louis,
It could be a tough choice for Jon because he must feel some sort of bond, for lack of better word, with the woman who gave him second chance at life then again we did hear him tonight say what kind of God is it? So hearing of the child sacrifice will further turn him away. Plus I’m guessing since Davos is his man he’ll have to placate him and we know Davos will not want Mel around any longer. I wonder where she will go?
Cameryn,
She also showed like zero emotion that her little brother was murdered. But ok, we all understand Sansa.
Ok, that just literally made me lol!!!
Ahh the negative nellys are out in full force. Must be Sunday.
RIP Rickon. I am House Stark forever but if we had to lose you to save Davos and Tormund, I can deal with that.
WE NEVER HAVE TO SEE THE SHITTY FLAYED MAN ON THE OPENING CREDITS AGAIN.
I am going to give a little cheer next week when the Stark sigil is back where it belongs on that map!
Ok, so has anyone come up with the name Yaenerys yet?
One of the best moments of the episode.
Sansa having no fucks to give and doing whatever she wants for herself is a great character development.
Let’s just call a lannister a lannister and not sugar coat her actions.
Jon is now without question the least grey and most heroic Tolkien-style hero GOT has.
Firannion,
Yes yes yes! All the Stark kids now occupy that grey zone, it’s because of this that they’re still standing.
Dee Stark,
I enjoyed seeing that small look of triumph on Mel’s face when the Stark banners raised. This is the woman who burned good people alive I shouldn’t be rooting for her ugh lol.
Me too. 🙁 I really wonder if this is how the book arc will play out. I did say that if Sandor and Sansa met up again, they wouldn’t like each other any more but I never expected them to be so different. I suppose it makes sense but, wow.
Exactly.
She sees his dead body for the first time and doesn’t freak out after having been victimized herself for months? I would be in a state of shock from just seeing what’s been happening. Really, I don’t mean to dismiss you as much as I sound like I am, but I really do think you’re seeing more than what’s actually there. 🙂 Of course you could be right, but we’ll see in seven days…
I am so excited for next week’s opening. The Flayed Man will be off Winterfell!
Beric’s Moonlight Nights,
Joffrey did get his comeuppance for his behaviour, though. If he hadn’t brutalized Sansa, the Tyrells wouldn’t have felt the need to remove him.
Arya Snark,
Those weren’t consequences, as they didn’t flow from his earlier actions, as I said. Baelish was going to crush him whether he was an asshole or the nicest man on Earth.
If anyone thinks these were good battles or well writen they are simply incampable of thinking.
First, an army full of trebuchets, balistas arrows flaming heavy things and dragons appear in the sky… In real world they would be huge targets for hundreds or thousands of people with weapons capable of killing them. What happens in the show? NOBODY DOES ANYTHING!
Second, is there any commander who charges alone against an army? HE WOULD DIE IN SECONDS FULL OF ARROWS!!!! THERE WERE AT LEAST HUNDREDS OF ARROWS FOR A SINGLE JON… then NOBODY USES A SHIELD ON JON’S SIDE? NOBODY!? and lastly, they let themselves be cornered and just watch… if this wasn t enough instead of charging in one direction to break the encirclement they do nothing….
For anyone with a brain both battles were trash, however i agree the filming was excelent
Turns out Ramsay did learn something from Roose and it made him a coward. Turns out Littlefinger’s sleazy smile when he arrived with Sansa was the funniest scene in all six seasons. Turns out Jon isn’t superman. Turns out Dany is and I hope to death she makes love to Yara. I’d even take Theon watching just to have that. Turns out Yessan might be a regular on the show, advising Dany.
Turns out Theon has two uncles on the show which means Aeron has been mentioned. Which mean I have to change my name.
Ramsay seemed to be coated with Teflon. His lack of consequences until the end was part of the irony of the story. His life story is: doing something bad, it felt good, no problem for him, repeat and repeat.
He had the right combination of lack of supervision, empowerment from father, and training in evil by the original Reek.
In your observation, you might be asking, “What is the meaning or moral behind doing bad and getting away with it?” In ASoIaF there are so many varied ways people harm others, whether they mean to or not, what difference does it make if someone is a deliberate rat bastard?
Dee Stark,
This is a very good observation tbh, one that I overlooked. Davos is out to get her!
Lionthing,
I would tread that subject more carefully. Certainly, what Sansa has gone through can have immeasurable impact on a woman, but that’s not to say it gives her a free pass from judgment. Her reason for not sharing information with Jon may or may not be because of what she has gone through (though I struggle to see the connection, given how adamant she was about the need for more men), but that does not negate the fact that she lied.
People are perfectly able to be in touch with the horrors of abuse and still frown upon the decisions made by one of its victims, certainly within a fictional story at the least.
The Bastard,
I agree and really hope so!!!
Lionthing,
Jokes… pure jokes… Have you been on the internet before?
No criticism..lol.
Wonder what the High Septon will do if Dany comes to Westeros with Yara as her co-queen?
The Bastard,
You know, I don’t think he’s in love with her. He loves power. But he really is a rather asexual kind of guy, odd as it seems with his brothels etc. He loved Cat, was rejected, and I think he is incapable of love since.
A truly epic episode with two huge battles, peppered with moments of introspection, tender remembrance and sad tidings…I could have asked no more from this truly wonderful show. And that is what I got and more!
And in true GOT fashion the ever present feeling of unease is always there, good or bad!
Outstanding! Let the dragons ride forth again!
I even believed the Vale rescue, even though I was dreading it from a story perspective. Jon made so many mistakes as a commander, he couldn’t be trusted to know about the Vale army. I retroactively forgive Sansa for everything this season.
Nadia,
Regarding Sansa’s “arc,” what’s great about the books is that they aren’t formulaic. In the hands of a lesser writer, yes, it might be a given that Sansa must “end up” with or confront Baelish because of the destruction he’s caused her family. However, in GRRM’s world, her path may veer away from his altogether. She be rescued by the Mad Mouse, Brienne, Jaime, she might find a chance to escape, who knows. That’s what I love about the story. GRRM doesn’t follow the “he’s her enemy so she must deal with him” rule, or any other, really. Refreshing. Finish the book, George!
Cameryn,
We will see. I held out hope that Sansa would tell Jon and she didn’t. I will hold out hope that she expresses SOME remorse for not trusting and for lying to him. I don’t think the show is going to gloss over that (at least I hope not – they at least seem like they’re having a conversation). I just have always believed that Sansa’s arc remains with LF, NOT with Jon.
Her playing her power games when we know and Jon knows that the WWs are coming – that’s not going to sit well.
Laura,
I came up with it last week. Join the ship!
First, loved the ep. Gotta watch everything again-so much to see. So much emotion in this one! I really feared for Tormund. And I was holding my breath when Jon was buried under the bodies-feared for him as well, plot armor be damned. I get that Sansa was traumatized and cannot trust anyone. I get that she wants to have Ramsey chewed up. But:
When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives. -Ned Stark to Arya about hating her sister in A Game of Thrones
Don’t be too happy about the new fierce Sansa, Sansa lovers. I’m starting to fear that Arya will have to kill her to save the Starks. Sansa better get her head on straight and realize that her family is her salvation or she is doomed.
Can’t wait to see of they find anything in the crypts when they inter Rickon…
ygritte,
Personally I’m biding my days until her reckoning, i can’t forgive her for Shireen’s death
Whatever else was off about the writing of the character, that particular moment wasn’t “zero emotion”; she demanded to know where Ramsay was. The point being, her reaction was cold fury.
I’m not even that angry with her. She didn’t know whether LF would come through, or not. I don’t think she saw any point in telling Jon. He made it clear he would not wait for more troops. What was he going to do, be told an army from the Vale may or may not arrive, then suddenly change his mind and decide to wait for an army that may not even come?
I think she used LF. I think, if he is, indeed, telling her he wanted to marry her in the next episode, she will not receive it kindly, to put it mildly.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/19/game-thrones-battle-death An interview with Iwan.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/19/game-thrones-battle-director An interview with Miguel.
Bran.
loco73,
My heart was hammering throughout the whole episode, even after the victory I had a sick feeling. What an ep!
ygritte,
Mel would be incredibly useful against the Walkers. If she truly believes Jon is TPTWP even if he does send her away she would probably still try to help him somehow. If I’m deciding who do I need more against a white walker invasion I’m going with Mel over Davos.
The Bastard,
Bran did it too going to a vision alone
Lionthing,
No, because he would be “inexperienced” and “doing his best against overwhelming odds.”
Was that dog scene with Ramsay the “horrible effect scene” that one of the effect men was hyping in one interview?
Wasn’t he always?
Here is the preview for the final episode of S6.
eejazz,
Well, yeah, I’m not saying that her actions were right or wrong — just understandable. Kinda like how…well, I’ll put it this way: I read an article the other day about an old man who murdered his wife because she was in pain and very sick, and he couldn’t afford the hospital bills, and she had asked to die. Was it right or wrong? I don’t know. Do I totally get where he’s coming from? Yeah.
So it is with Sansa. I’m not saying that people can’t be mad at her, but saying she sucks and she’s ruining Jon’s character or something, or (as in other threads) whining about “girl power” or whatnot — that’s not really fair. Especially since, as I said, I really think they’d stick up for any other male or traditionally masculine (e.g. Arya or Yara, though weirdly Brienne gets a pass on this) character.
I think Sansa kept the Vale information to herself so the victory would look like her’s, not Jon’s. Kind of a dick move, but it’s the first time I actually like her as a character.
Sean C.,
100% agree. She was resigned to the fact that Rickon was a dead man walking, but in that moment she wanted blood. No peripheral vision but just a singular goal in ending Ramsay.
I have to say thank you to D&D for letting Sansa have the last word with Ramsay.
Err, thanks Sansa. You could have saved a few more lives (including Rickon’s!) if you’d opened your mouth. Instead of complaining to Jon that he doesn’t listen to you, actually share your information with him so that he can use it and then you might find that he listens to you more.
(Sorry, sorry, sorry guys. I don’t like complaining, but I just had to get this off my chest. I promise I won’t do it again.)
Sean C.,
Regarding Joffrey’s comeuppance, oh yeah! It does happen and when it does, it’s great! I admit, I’ve reread THOSE chapters several times, Tyrion’s dismissal of Janos Slynt being another satisfying one! But, alas, will Baelish get his? I’m not sure…
Watching again! First time I was busy snickering with Tyrion and gasping when greyworm killed the masters. Holding my breath during the battle, crying out as Jon was being trampled and buried; and having vindicated satisfaction as Sansa unleashed the dogs.
All and all, I loved this episode. Even with the spoilers, my adrenaline was still pumping a mile a minute from start to end. Really enjoyed it and I can’t wait to see the TOJ and crypts next week. At least I think we’ll see the crypts.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I think bottom line, It wasn’t her decision to make, since it wasn’t her life on the direct line. yes I get why she did what she did, but it’s still wrong
Lionthing,
The comment about a smug Sansa or Dany is ridiculous, a big, fat double standard.
Well it was as cheesy as hell and had enough things you could nit pick to last 20 years, but I still LOVED it 😀 Quite frankly I wouldn’t have minded if an alien invasion had swung it. Stark banners in Winterfell again people! Ramsay lost, had time for it to sink in and suffered a horrible, and very fitting, death at the hands of one of his victims. (Although when we saw the first of his dogs I thought for a split second it was a bear! Got Mormonts on the brain thanks to the fantastic Lyanna.)
I also have to add, although I can’t take dragons seriously for even a milisecond, the effects of Dany flying on Drogon looked really good – remember what she looked like in S5 ep9? This was sooo much better.
They’ve dropped so many hints about wildfire in/under KL and Cersei burning stuff for the love of her children that it might as well be the title of ep10. Can’t wait! 😀
Great episode!!!
Can just about get away with the decision to engage generally via the pre-battle talk between Jon and Sansa that they are out of options so was fine with that
Jon obviously wasn’t a very smart man in the way he engaged, but he outlined and discussed a/the plan then got manipulated via Rickon, fine enough with that (as he saw his folly and will remember for next time) as they at least attempted to give a half proper reason
As for Sansa, sure she didn’t tell him but I think they will have that conversation next week, eg she may not have been sure, plus if we put our reverse engineer the books hat on, then if she does marry HtH and they go North, it is possibly to decisively intervene in this equivalent battle
There are some smaller issues, eg Harpies out the front and no besieging land forces but I can understand that in practical TV terms it’s one or the other so they’ve done a rush job etc and the whole thing is meant to convey that Dragons burn the ships, Dothraki smash the besieging army etc etc. Just wish we could have gotten Iron Fleet attacking but oh well Budget costs?
Lionthing,
That’s fair enough. I do think assisted suicide is more of a morally gray area than the information Sansa withheld in this episode – it seemed like a straightforward misstep to me. I do see your point regardless though. I just hope to get an interesting resolution in EP10.
It’s hard to have debates on GOT when people argue from a POV that being a bad person is a good thing fascinating really.
Sean C.,
Rickon was definitely a “north-south” runner….zig zag a little ! 🙁
Awesome episode, our Hardhome director comes through again. One thing I don’t get, sorry if it’s already been hashed out…
If Sansa tells Jon she sent a raven for the Vale army, wouldn’t that have saved thousands of lives in the Stark camp? If I’m Jon and I hear that, I wait for them to show up. Yes, less dramatic victory, but she’s now partly responsible for those mountains of bodies? If they start the battle 15 minutes later they don’t lose half that many men? This is something she’ll have to answer for, yes?
NK,
I think it might’ve been the three dragons attacking simultaneously. I don’t ever recall seeing that before.
Wow, that was an awesome episode. All of the jockeying for sides paid off hugely in both plot lines. The Meereen battle was good: and the Winterfell battle was spectacular. They captured the absolute mayhem of battle extremely well. If my tear ducts still worked, then I would have shed a tear for Wun Wun.
I did like the recurring theme of “its what we have.”
When given the choices of “evil” or “stupid,” always bet on “stupid.” However, never completely dismiss “evil.” 😀
Seriously, the idea that Sansa will “betray” Jon is both sexist and inane. For one thing, she is Lady of Winterfell: Jon’s a bastard with no place in the succession. Jon might betray her (although he won’t): but she’s not in a position to betray anyone in the North anymore. And if Sansa disagrees with Jon, then she disagrees with Jon. Despite what buffoons believe, women disagreeing with men is not betrayal.
The Molehill that Rides,
I think being paralyzed from the waist down in a world with no modern medical help might put him squarely in Theon-land.
I seriously loved that. It lived up to the hype. You just don’t see something executed like that on TV ever, and, frankly, it was better than most movies. Still processing, and need to watch again later, but definitely one of my favorite episodes. Top 10 easy. That makes two this season. Wow.
Such bizarre complaints people come up with. Authors and TV writers should only write good characters? Seriously?
I mean, I can see a first-grader thinking that, maybe . . . but an adult? Sad.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Don’t you think it was really rich to have her angry at Jon for not including her in planning….while she’s been withholding MAJOR information from him? It makes her look incredibly untrustworthy.
I’ve never thought that Sansa’s destiny is to kill LF. I think it’s either to be with him or become him. She’s not going to be some loyal Stark sibling – her story still clearly lies with him. If there’s someone right now in the story she could betray, it wouldn’t be LF. Remember, people were even commenting seasons ago when he kissed her that the show never portrayed Sansa as being upset or repulsed by it.
cool episode, waaay to predictable!
Rickon should have at least had some dialogue, what a waste. I would have prefered to have a real pitched battle, Stark army onscreen has never been shown in action- only off-screen or getting slaughtered. A competent Jon would have made up for having all of Robbs battles take place offscreen 🙁
Dragons were cool too. Not sure how I feel about having Theon just be a background character now, he should have stayed north.
Wimsey,
Thanks Wimsey you rock, also we can think ehat she did was wrong but not believe she will turn into a villain for it
EDIT TO ADD:
I forgot to say this before but….
DANY IN BLAAAAAAAAAAAAACKK!!!! *does a happy dance*
Jon and Sansa are in a very bizarre situation, to be fair. They love each other (they are the only family they have) but they do not know each other. They have both gone through very different experiences which have shaped them and they have to get to learn how to work together.
They could both benefit from it tremendously.
Sansa has a hard time shaking the “trust no one” lesson off. Probably because it has been proven correct by virtually every human interaction she has had over the last five years.
Jon finds it difficult not to follow his guts, and solely his guts. That is a very Stark characteristic which makes the members of this family very appealing (and very dead…)
A mix of the two would be rather formidable : Jon could learn that absolute spontaneity can be detrimental, deadly even, no matter how honourable it may seem; and Sansa could remember that there are people she can actually trust (she just has to choose wisely)
Furthermore, let’s not ignore that there is some powerplay involved between these two characters. They are both technically “illegitimate” to rule : he is a bastard, she is a woman. But neither of them wants to be the “follower”, it seems…
@ash : you’re welcome 😉
Fantastic episode. Gasp, actually loved Meereen today.
And BoB…just WOW. It was exactly what I expected. Blood and guts and gore. Not sure how much ‘story telling’ can be done during a battle.
Maybe you should read the book for that……oh wait…..
What folks forget is that this show is geared to entertain Joe and Jane Average on a Sunday night.
And boy did it ever.
RIP Wun-Wun.
Good riddance Ramsey.
It’s. All. Make believe.
Got to get some sleep.
Wimsey,
I love how consistently you post your theories as facts, are consistently proven wrong, and yet continue to make such statements. 😉
How’s that certainty that Ramsay causes the Wall to come down, or that it’s the Nights Watch burning on the crosses?
Excellent episode of television!
Great acting, directing, etc… I’d rather GoT-book political intrigue and wittier writing… but when faced with the epicness of something like that – I mean, come on, how can we really still bitch about it? Wow, sad. I had the highest of expectations for the cavalry, and I was still impressed.
Sansa had a perfectly REASONABLE and intelligent reaction. She talked with and tested Jon to see if she could tell him about the potential of the Vale’s arrival… she didn’t feel she could trust him, after all she’s been through. Hell, she couldn’t trust which side Littlefinger would actually be on when if/when he showed up. Shock – Sansa has large trust issues.
Then Jon had a perfectly REASONABLE reaction to Rickon’s death – a noble Stark-type Samurai suicide mission – again, logical considering who he is, all he’s died through and his number of troops. Shock – Jon has some PTSD-style issues.
Compared to things like Arya’s the Waif’s and the Sand Snakes motivations… these were lovely, complex and well in character.
RIP Wun Wun. You were a perfect plot device to get into Winterfell. I cringed it worry as you achieved your purpose. 🙁
Quite right! May there always be a Stark at Winterfell, from the Battle of the Bastards until the end of the Long Night.
Wimsey,
Suggesting a woman may betray a man is also not inherently sexist. While that theory may be driven by some who hold sexist views, there is legitimate evidence that it could happen.
For the record, I do not think Sansa will betray Jon any more than what we saw with the Vale information tonight. I just don’t like people equating an attack on one female character as an attack on all women. It’s important to be vigilant against prejudice, but it’s also important not to mistakently abuse this to dismiss valid viewpoints.
Ginevra,
This. Yep. Dany may be stiff and smug and have boring story arc at times with no lack of plot armor but at least we see that she more or less still has a good heart. She doesn’t seem as self centered as Sansa. She feels entitled to the throne because of her lineage and the whole “gifted with dragons it must be my destiny to conquer” is understandable really. I don’t agree with everything she’s done but her interaction with Yara/Theon tonight shows me that she’s still got compassion and goodwill towards those she would rule. Of course that could change at any moment but this is the first time in quite a while that I’ve felt something good towards her.
BTW, Thanks HBO NOW for being down a whole hour tonight!!!
JohnW
Never said that and I wasn’t complaining.
This isn’t the little girl who wanted to dress up like a princess anymore,” he said. “Her walk away at the end of the scene, that’s one of my favorite shots we’ve ever had. It’s just the little ghost of a smile on her face. She’s in Winterfell, but she’s not the person she was when she first left.”
– Comment from D&D in Inside the Episode.
I dont understand the people who are saying things like “woman bad, man good, grunt grunt” and “ohh yyou just can’t handle a powerful woman blah blah”. You are missing the point. Sansa just did something incomprehensibly stupid and got thousands of people killed. Its not a matter of “you just can’t handle a strong woman”. That is not the case at all, its just the fact that she hid that information from jon which could have saved thousands of lives, and was a really stupid move. This has nothing to do with the fact that shes a woman. If she was a man, it would have been just as stupid. I just hope that when jon/sansa/littlefinger get together in epsiode 10 and chat, that we get some sort of satisfying explanation for sansas shadyness, or else I am gonna have to go ahead and say that the writes bungled the shit out of sansas arc this season. All in all, it weas great epsiode though even in spite of the sansa/vale army thing.
Simon,
I’m disappointed that it’s Sansa LF is meeting with in the Godswood. There were rumors that it was Jon with ghost and that LF had some information for him.
Ser Pounce FTW,
Sansa was still pure for me.
Even Jon letting up on Ramsay shows he has trouble killing just for killing.
I hope Sansa gives Jon a thank you card for leaving Ramsay alive for her.
I can’t at people trying to vilify Sansa. Lmao. I don’t expect people to agree with everything she does, and she’s allowed to be criticized like the others but there’s just a next level grossness that always accompanies Sansa (and Dany) hate that amuses me. I trust some people don’t even realize the way their comments about her read. It always reads like “Sansa better stay in her place!!11” which is lol.
At the end of the day LF and the Vale army is the only card Sansa had to play. For someone who’s used to having people decide her fate, I can’t fault her for keeping that in her back pocket, yes even from Jon who until this episode didn’t seem receptive to any of her concerns or her input. She needed to have control of SOME variable during this battle considering how much she had at stake (about as much as everyone else, but maybe more) if they lost. Even then she really didn’t have much control since she had no way of really knowing if the Vale army would make it in time, so what difference would it have made if she told him right then?
Everyone can debate how right or wrong it was for Sansa to keep LF and the Vale army a secret from Jon, but at the end of the day I understand why she did it. She had to have *some* control of her own fate for once, yes and even if that meant lying to her brother. I think some people were wanting or maybe expecting Sansa to be nothing more than a dutiful little sister to Jon upon their reunion, lay her fate in his hands so he can be her protector but no, not what she had in mind (and YES at Jon realizing at the end that Ramsey wasn’t his to kill). Everyone (Davos, Wildlings, Jon etc.) get to decide, to fight or not to fight, to join or not to join, yet Sansa who Ramsey would probably enjoy torturing the most finds herself once again at the mercy of other people’s choices. People don’t have to like that she didn’t tell Jon the truth, but to make her out to be some sinister manipulative ~~~evil person, or to act like her decision was ~~stupid is ridiculous imo.
Also Sansa took a calculated risk asking LF for help. I’m amazed that people think Sansa suddenly trusts LF again just because she sought his help. The whole reason she didn’t take his help right away and instead opted to recruit northern houses and reach out to the Blackfish was so she wouldn’t have to deal with his shady shenanigans. The way I see it was either risk being defeated by Ramsey which looked very likely with how outnumbered they were, or accept LF’s help, knowing that there will most likely be strings and manipulation attached? One decision could literally spell the END for her and Jon, and the other while not ideal, would probably allow them to live and play the game another day. I saw that someone made out that in the letter that she promises to reward him for coming to their aid (this is obviously Sansa appealing to the side of LF she knows ALWAYS wants something for his troubles) and I’m now convinced it’s a trick. She’ll probably out him for killing Aunt Lysa to Jon or something.
Anyway, this episode was amazing will have more thoughts on that later.
I do see what you’re saying there. I guess it just goes to show there’s no way to make everyone happy. Say Sansa did tell Jon, and Jon said he wasn’t going to wait, then another group of people would be flipping out about Jon, his poor decision making, how all those deaths were his fault, etc…(not to say you’re flipping out, just speaking in general of the people who are).
I’ll be looking for the Stark sigil on Winterfell on the map, next week. Gawd, it will make me so happy to see that direwolf!!!
I always hope that they will use the WF crypts for something surreal and revealing as well but the LF-Sansa encounter in S5 is probably as close as we’ll get to anything substantial being revealed down there.
“Sansa’s not a murderer. Not yet, anyway.” – Tyrion, S4
My only problem with that battle was that many of the 8000 men( 6000 boltons and 2000 wildlings ) were not there. I have played enough Total war games to know that 8000 men on battlefield does not look like that. But still great episode and satisfying death! I personally would have flayed him alive and then gave him to his dogs but that is fine too!
House Seaworth,
They’re not going to admit it was stupid because they want her to be top stark. It’s hard to be objective when you are entirely biased.
Vyse,
How am I being a hypocrite for being less concerned about the first time something happens as opposed to the third?
If Sansa actually gives an explanation in episode 10 that makes sense, fine, but so far I’m not seeing it.
No. Sansa sent a raven: and asking for help is very different from knowing that you’ll receive help. She did not know that the Vale would come. She told LF off pretty thoroughly: and she had to fear that he would not give her another chance.
Again, that is the story this year: the cost of creating sides. Sansa had to suck it up and summon an ally that she did not want in order to win. However, the cost of her not taking the easy way out early on was the lack of surety: she didn’t know if LF would actually come. Now, if Sansa “knew” that she was in a story, then she’d know that a hung gun should be fired: but characters cannot know that they are in stories!
Now that marginal nitpicking is out of the way (not Sapochniks fault…it’s a writing issue but they’ve just about wrote their way through the plot issues)
The cinematics were absolutely outstanding
That early melee with the Horses brilliant, I loved how they conveyed the feeling of chaos while remaining fixated on a known character so we as a viewer remain engaged
I loved the fact he conveyed the deep grit and naked battle lust of it all, a sense of deep determination but without any sense of clean romance
And I enjoyed how he was able to tie what was happening with the individual characters into what was happening in terms of the overall battle, eg Jon is getting suffocated in the stampede as his Army is getting suffocated by the Phalanx
Then obviously as the horn blows Tormund manages to bite at Smalljons neck
They got the mood perfect, with the Phalanx slowly closing in, methodically etc, between that and Stannis’s cavalry charge they nicely showed how what Jon said to Ygritte held true, eg the Northerners had always been able to defeat the Wildlings via their discipline
Loved the slow motion shots of the Cavalry, eg the Vale Cavalry, conveyed brilliantly with the slow realisation dawning on Ramsay and everyone else what is happening, so even though I suspected it was going to happen, still brilliantly done given Jon etc condition and I got what I wanted in terms of stories within stories
Some book readers may nitpick over Jon vs Ramsay, first of all love the Bear Island Mormont shield but secondly it’s there as a visual medium cue as the mirror to how Ramsay shot Rickon, Ramsays tricks no longer work and this is followed up thematically with how Sansa then uses the fact he hasn’t fed his Hounds for 7 days with what Roose said about being taken out back and being slaughtered
Take a bow Miguel Sapochnik, that was awesomely done
We didn’t see what happened to Karstark jnr did we? If he survived, I wonder if there’s any chance of him switching sides back to the Starks? I know he hates them because Robb killed his father, but he’s dead (Robb) and Ramsay killed Rickon, he might see them as cancelling each other out? Plus the remaining Starks weren’t involved in the War of the 5 Kings so didn’t have anything to do with his father’s death. Just typing as I’m thinking here. Jon wants to unite the North against the WWs and may forgive the remaining Karstarks and Umbers if they pledge to join the fight against the greater threat. He made peace with Wildlings who killed his NW friends, has seen how Tormund and Davos can also work together despite being on opposite sides in the past. There are plenty of real world parallels to that kind of situation. Mmmm ? Anyway, need to watch next week’s trailer and go to bed, it’s 4.30am here. Catch up with you all tomorrow *waves night night*
House Seaworth,
I respect your opinion but the backlash that Dany and Sansa get on here is beyond, and you’d be ignorant in thinking that it doesn’t exist.
I think Arya will kill him.
Jon has gone through so much only to have his half-sister use him and gamble with his life. WTF? I hope Jon takes appropriate action next episode. Don’t let this vengeful woman trumple you for her own gain.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS. 100000 TIMES THIS.
Did it ever occur to some of you bitching about Sansa that this is all by design? D&D know exactly what they’re doing. Sansa has been abused (physically and emotionally) and has been changed forever from the naive young girl we met in season one. She has survived and in many ways grown stronger. But we are meant to question whether this change has been entirely for the good. In the “Inside the Episode” D&D spell this out quite clearly.
Will she ever go fully “dark”? I doubt it. But the ambiguity surrounding Sansa is making me dig her character more than ever before.
Good drama arises out of conflict. If Jon and Sansa were always on the same page their relationship would be static and boring. They are completely different types of people… as siblings often are. They argue and fight. Their loyalties are tested. But at the end of the day they are both Starks.
Just an amazing episode. TV rarely gets better than this.
She’s done crying. If she cries than its all Sansa is so lame toughen up! Sansa was prepared and already knew Rickon was dead. Only thing left is to avenge. But okay, we all understand characters
Cameryn,
OK she was telling him he needs to listen to her and then when he asked what she’d advise, she has nothing to offer. It’s like she was dying to say “the Vale might show up let’s wait a bit and see!” but for some odd reason she held back….you don’t find that frustrating?
For those who care ign Gave this episode of Game of Thrones a 10, can’t wait for the rest of the reviews ^^
Sansa took full control of her destiny. Whether you like it or not is a different question.
I don’t like that she didn’t tell Jon. But it is what is. I will wait to see how this plays out.
I loved this episode so much. I can’t. Even. Ahhhh
Wimsey,
Yeah it does seem like a tricky act but I think they can just about get away with it
Eg after the way she told him off, this sort of thing needs to be balanced out by summoning and talking to him personally
Plus he is obviously slippery, can’t just send a Raven to LF, you have to watch to make sure he is actually doing it, hence the reason Roose read his Raven message and wanted to read the reply
And if I put my book reader hat on, Sansa and Jon wouldn’t be together in the lead-up, this may actually be the merging point in the books if Sansa does do the marry HtH thing as Sansa instead of Alayne and the Vale Army heads north so I can kinda see how they have juggled things
I’m sorry for disagreeing. As mean and cruel as it may seem, Sansa’s and the knights of vale’s strategy was right. They had to come at the last minute to reduce casualties and improve chances of victory. Cavalry would only work if shields and pikes were not turned to the other way. Unfortunately the position of cannon fodder tha infantry plays is exactly this – sacrifice for others to reap.
Yes! I don’t think Sansa is anywhere near a villain. She went into this with “tunnel-vision”. Yes, she wanted Winterfell back and she wanted a united north. But what she wanted most of all was revenge on Ramsay. It’s understandable, her single desire, but when she told Jon that Rickon was dead no matter what they do, what are they fighting for? Of course, they are fighting to get their home back but urgency felt divided. For Jon, it was Rickon. For Sansa, it was for Ramsay’s head.
By no means does that mean Sansa didn’t give a shit about Rickon or was power hungry, but she already knew her Brother was as good as dead. She wanted her justice for all she suffered. I can’t begrudge her that, I just wish she trusted Jon enough to give him all the information. You want him to listen? Give him something worth listening to. He may not know Ramsay, he fell into a trap but his fight was to save his brother.
No matter what, Sansa and Jon both made mistakes in the planning and action and that amps up the drama. So really, it’s a good thing. Another layer to the cake.
gnarlytarly,
Loved that scene 🙂 It was executed very well (pun intended)
Sansa may not have known for certain, but I think she knows LF. Knows how he will react. So, yeah, she didn’t “know,” but she knew. Even if she wasn’t positive, couldn’t Jon have sent scouts south to see if maybe a large mounted army was headed up from the Vale? Like, maybe that would have been noticed? Can’t be all that many routes to move that kind of force, so, you know, they could’ve at least tried to check.
I love Samsa and happily ship Jonsa, even if it is kind of a crack ship, but she really disappointed me.
Loved the rest though! Dragons! No Ghost was my only complaint other than what my girl is doing. Hope Sansa turns on LF soon, but I suspect that will take awhile.
Sunfyre,
Her judgment changing is completely understanding and dramatically interesting. My only frustration (beyond inevitable plot implications) comes from fans trying to explain away all of the darkness, claiming that all of her decisions were pure and for the best. I’m all for more complex characterization, people may just have to accept that Sansa is no longer the traditionally “good” character we’ve come to know (for better or worse) ?
Shaz,
This completely reinforces everything I’ve ever thought – Sansa is going to be with LF.
Jon, for better or worse, has the best/most selfless motivations of anyone on this show.
Sansa is entirely the opposite. Her entire arc this season was vengeance for herself, for herself not to be a victim, to punish Ramsay for what he did to her.
All of that is fine, but that doesn’t put them on the same page going forward. I’m not sure that her and Jon can or really will be able to agree together, and that her story lies not with Jon but with LF. She’s going darker, and if that means being with LF to secure her position, I think she might do it.
I LOVED the entire episode!!!! It was worth every single penny spent!!! The story,the arcs,the action,the Meereen storyline!! Wheeeeee!!!!!!! That was sooooooo awesome!!!!
RIP young Rickon. We hardly knew ye 🙁
*breaks a window*
*loots a grocery cosmetics counter*
*bashes in a sock display with a shower curtain*
Wun Wun died and I’m rioting.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Yeah i get that, it’s sad, but we will live through it though, we always do, as a fandom and as a community
Completely agree!! People need to chill on their Sansa-bashing. She doesn’t need to be your favorite character, but she isn’t the backstabber everyone is making her out to be.
Ghosts Lunch,
Totally agree! Well done episode. D&D really do great battle scenes.
The previews for next week are really intriguing. We finally get someone saying the Lannisters send their regards, only they’ve included the Freys in the quote. I always said it wouldn’t happen but it does seems as though they’re setting up Red Wedding 2, doesn’t it? And KL will burn. Too many references made to the wildfire. Which characters will go down in the flames?
Also I’m SO HERE for Dany/Yara. Please let this be a thing that happens!!
Wimsey,
Just adding my two cents to agree w Wimsey et al who understand that Sansa didn’t know the Vale was coming for sure. And even if she did tell Jon it was too late to wait for them, as Ramsey was coming to him. She could have mentioned the possibility earlier, but we cannot know how that would have gone over and it seems she had a legit reason for turning him down.
Because your criticism is that it’s a trope. It was a trope when Tywin saved the day, and it was a trope when the Vale saved the day. Just be consistent with the criticism.
Sansa was amazing! Really love where they are taking her character. Also liked the fact that she didn’t turn away in the beginning with Ramsay. Not sure why she didn’t tell Jon about the Vale but I get the feeling it was really some sort of plot device. It’s funny how people are getting their knickers in a twist over it though. I mean to say Rickon wouldn’t have gotten killed? Lol please. It’s clear that a) he was always going to get killed whichever way it happened and b) Ramsay would have pulled that stunt regardless of the Vale being there.
A tiny bit
But in some respects as I’d been saying, if Jon goes into pitched battle with Wildlings in the centre it raises questions about his ability as a military commander, eg Wildlings are Auxiliary units designed to supplement a Professional force which I expected to be the Manderly’s
This in turn undermines character development as to whether he is someone you would follow into battle etc
If he rushes in with Cavalry first it is foolish etc, but for me that scene set things up, eg Sansa is making a general comment to be wary of being manipulated which then occurs with how they have killed Rickon (who like Olly didn’t speak…Plus if Rickon ran sideways and took cover behind a burning cross he may have made it…)
but what I liked is how after his Horse is shot, when the Horses are running at him Jon realises he’s been a manipulated fool which he won’t allow to happen again etc and then we get the Cavalry clashing (meaning no pincer movements…)
Louis,
Or, perhaps, there are a variety of people who have a variety of opinions. Just because some aren’t livid with Sansa does not mean they want her to be “top Stark,” nor that they’re biased, it just means they have a different opinion. Ok, there are huge Sansa fans out there, and they may be biased toward her, just as the huge Jon, Dany, Stannis, etc… fans are biased toward those characters. However, there are plenty of people for whom neither Jon nor Sansa are anywhere close to their favorite characters, so it doesn’t make sense to paint everyone who doesn’t see it the way you do with a “biased” brush.
Nadia,
No. Sansa sent a raven: and asking for help is very different from knowing that you’ll receive help. She did not know that the Vale would come. She told LF off pretty thoroughly: and she had to fear that he would not give her another chance.
Again, that is the story this year: the cost of creating sides. Sansa had to suck it up and summon an ally that she did not want in order to win. However, the cost of her not taking the easy way out early on was the lack of surety: she didn’t know if LF would actually come. Now, if Sansa “knew” that she was in a story, then she’d know that a hung gun should be fired: but characters cannot know that they are in stories!
I liked that Jon had a Mormont shield to defend himself. 62 Good Mormonts!
Looks like we’ll have to put a picture of Little Karstark on a milk carton. Under “Missing”.
Glad Jon left Ghost in his doggy pin.
RIP Wun Wun.
Btw, does anyone think that Jon’s become too sullen? I know he’s always been moody but he seems to be a lot more of it since his “revival”.
Or it could just be me.
And again I wonder how the books will be and how Jon will be in TWoW. Will it be this sullenness? I find it hard to reconcile his new traits on the show with the book’s demand for him to kill the boy.
Come on, George. Answer my questions.
Absolutely incredible episode.
The battle was stunning, and it seemed to fly by. I expected to be slightly bored by Meereen (because of the anticipation of BotB), but it was great, and probably the best Meereen has ever been.
Sad to see Rickon go, but like Sansa said, it was inevitable.
And to top it all off, the preview for next week looks epic.
Well, we all get to tease Wimsey unmercifully next week if Jon and Sansa find something of importance in the crypts when they go to inter Rickon! Pointless worldbuilding, I believe he said, or words to that effect.
The season of the doors. Hodor held the door and died, Wun Wun knocks it down and died, all to save the Starks. Who knocks down the Frey door next week, hmmmm? Can’t wait!
Let’s just say that right after the episode ended, I promised my hound (in the avatar picture) to never ever starve him for 7 days.
I loved the episode. The battle scenes were fantastic, Meereen better than I expected, Grey Worm’s and Tormund’s badass scenes made me cheer aloud and I teared up seeing that Winterfell banner rolled out.
Yes, there was one thing that made me furious amongst all that awesomeness, but that was HBO Now not functioning for half an hour, thus making me watch with a delay.
kells,
Thank you for a reasonable assessment. You’re absolutely right that Sansa’s season 6 goal was solely revenge. I think she was out of her depth when it came to war but it was very much an education for her, one that Jon seems to be reminding her of in the promo for episode 10. Now that Ramsay is out the way, she’ll get some some perspective back on the real war. Who better to educate her than Jon?
BTW the ep 10 promo makes me think it’ll be the episode of the season. LF wanting to marry Sansa, Lord!!
My girl Daenerys and boy Jon
My life is complete .
❤️❤️❤️❤️
A lot of people are complaining about Sansa not telling about the Vale army. But really it had to be that way.
If she had told him, and they waited, then the commanders of the Army of the Vale would have surely taken over and Jon Snow would have been a unit commander of the Wildlings at best. The the whole hero arc would be out and Ramsey likely would have retreated back to WF for a long siege. No thanks.
So even if the army at the last moment is a tired mechanism it is needed at times.
Plus as several have already pointed out, it was the best plan to lay out either way. Keep Ramsey on the field, get him to over commit his ranks and then cut him down with mounted knights when there is no escape.
The next time I do so will be the first. I use words like “bet,” “conjecture” and “speculation.” I never once said that it was a certainty: only that I thought that these things might happen. It certainly would have been consistent with the way that GRRM (and B&W) like to tell stories: bad things happening as a side effect of good deeds. The only things that I do state as facts are things such as definitions: i.e., what is story, what is plot, etc.: because those things are factual.
I will say that the whole “bodies on the crosses” was a huge Mt. Molehill by us fans! We had all thought (for whatever reasons) that those would be recognizable bodies. However, we’ll probably never know who they were.
LonRice,
She had to have *some* control of her own fate for once, yes and even if that meant lying to her brother.
Not at the risk of other people’s lives she didn’t. So a person who lies to a brother who is going to war at their behest to claim back the family home and youngest sibling’s life is perfectly justified for reasons of wanting “control?” Even if you believe that, you must admit it is very selfish.
Just come back from my double viewing sesh on Sky Atlantic. What an EPIC episode that was – Absolutely fucking brilliant in all respects 🙂
I’m not one to blow my own trumpet, but was great to see 3 of my predictions were correct that I’d mentioned earlier in this thread and a previous one – Those being:
1. The battle of Meereen with ALL THREE DRAGONS doing the bizzo!
2. The bodies burning on the crosses being of no importance or of known or deceased characters.
3. That Davos finds the wooden stag in ashes where Shireen was sacrificed. That look he gives Melisandre back in Winterfell says it all?
I though perhaps Sansa would save the day with Littlefinger arriving with the Knights of the Vale to assist Jon, the wildlings and the other houses that fought with him, but didn’t speculate on that outcome. I see many posters got that one correct and also that many of you guessed that Rickon and Wun Wun would die.
Good to see that Jon, Tormand and Davos survived the battle and GREAT TO SEE Ramsey finally getting his comeuppance and attacked and eaten by his hound pack with Sansa looking on – ‘Poetic Justice’ as they say – It couldn’t have been a better ending 🙂
Was surprised to see that Theon and Yara had arrived in Meereen in that episode and good to see they have made a pact with Dany who will restore the Iron Islands to them when (or is that if) she becomes Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. A good job they told her what Euron’s true intentions are, so that will be an interesting scenario also at some later date. Probably not until S7.
So that’s my pennies worth – Off to the sack now. Its almost 5am here.
Jen@HouseStark,
I’m very curious because I always thought something big would happen at the Freys but seeing that Jamie is there, can’t see it happening.
kells,
Yeah, i’m felling hopeful, in the preview when Jon kinda “chastises” her she seems to have tears in her eyes, i think in a deep level she regrets being unable to trust him as they both need her to, but i’m hoping his love for her and hers for him will help mend them both, because they are both more than a little hurt emotionally wise.
Kit would like to settle this Sansa debacle. https://67.media.tumblr.com/7c20dd390f31cca6cd5d9db835c03db1/tumblr_o91wki7nGZ1v91qjio1_500.gif
Lord of the Pail,
Yes!!!
Nice that the ep is going down a treat with the GP. Well deserved.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Truthfully, I will fully admit Jon is my favorite character. But I never ever complained about Sansa, even through last season. People complained about that story line in Winterfell, but I thought she was just incredible throughout.
But part of it comes from the feeling like – who the hell cares that Jon was resurrected? It feels so insignificant, so inconsequential. The fighting by Kit was brilliant and beautiful, but in the end this has been Sansa’s story. And that’s fine, but it feels like a letdown again to think that this would perhaps be an episode where you see them really working together. And instead it’s Sansa yelling at Jon for not trusting her opinions WHILE LYING TO HIM, and then she rides in as Joan of Arc.
Perhaps I had the naive hope that we’d get two Starks really be and work together, but nothing has changed my mind that Sansa and LF are tied together.
Jon’s been expressing his concern for her over and over. Despite all of that, Sansa didn’t trust Jon. Will he trust her now, knowing how long she withheld all this? And SHOULD he trust her, with LF back in her orbit? I’m going to say no…
Certainly, it makes for better drama to have a Jon vs. Sansa type tension. Will it last? I don’t know. But it’s hard not to be mindful of all the indications that Sansa goes dark and perhaps even rivals her siblings (like in GRRM’s plans) or that she’s not a ‘pure Stark.’ She’s not who she was, even D&D said it, and we don’t yet know if that’s good or bad.
These are great. I love Iwan, and I love even more how he is just always so gleeful at Ramsay’s fate. He did point out something that I think is relevant – that he has left his mark on Sansa, that he is now in her head. It seems Ramsay, in that way, will be around for a long time to come.
“Gratuitous,” actually: but that’s almost a synonym! 😉 However, this would not be world-building: it would be arbitrary, which is just as big of a sin in storytelling! 😀 It also would border on Deus ex Machina, as the show never has introduced anything analog of a “birth certificate” that one could find some place (such as a crypt) that would demonstrate who someone’s parents or children were.
Every time the show has had the choice of using something invented on the spot or something introduced before for a big resolution, it’s gone with something introduced before. Why should we expect them to do different this time?
Dee Stark,
Probably next week 😉
Nadia,
Probably was predictable in many ways! Didn’t stop my enjoyment of it.
Actually it gave me a few pauses as I didn’t see the final arrow coming that took out Rickon (actually thought he was going to make it) and I was certainly expecting Tormund to die. My only disappointed (as always) was lack of Ghost, but Glad after Summer’s tragic end.
It is undoubtedly frustrating. As frustrating as Jon falling for Bolton’s abject provocation after having been warned numerous times.
Both are messed up. Jon went through numerous horrid experiences, was betrayed by his men and brought back to life seemingly on Davos’s whim. Sansa was horrifically abused at every corner and could only survive by shutting off as much of her as possible.
They are tremendously frustrating for, no matter how much they love each other (I have not doubt they do, sincerely), they do not necessarily like each other. Or understand each other, for that matter. They never have : back in the days when the Starks were the only sane family in the Seven Kingdoms, Sansa and Jon did not spend any time together and had zero common point (he was the sulky bastard, she was the wannabe lady).
Now, they have no other choice but to learn how. All the meanwhile figuring out who is going to be leader in the north… Which one of them ? Both of them ?
As for Sansa going full Baelish, I highly doubt it. Hopefully, she will incorporate what he taught her into the Stark “stew” to make it more efficient for the world the characters inhabit. May the Old Gods and the New bless them, but the Starks are not a practical bunch : when the world is full of greys, being black-or-white is not a useful trait (Rickard, Brandon, Ned, Catelyn, Robb… All thought in absolutes and, well…)
A dash of ruthless pragmatism might come in handy.
And considering the Frankenstein-style theme that seems to run through the show (Rosse killed by his creature Ramsay; Tywin killed by Tyrion, the son he shaped the most, etc), Baelish may have to be more cautious around Sansa…
@Ravyn : excellent catch, that Tyrion quote ! In a world of killers, one has to adapt eventually…
This episode was one of the greatest we’ve ever and will ever seen. I loved how they focused this whole episode on two things:
1 – Dany and her battle in Mereen
2 – Battle of the Bastards
In regards to Dany we’ve been waiting on this for seasons now. The wheels are finally in motion and she now has the ships to sail West. And Jon/Sansa reclaiming Winterfell has been brewing all season, not to mention Ramsay’s demise which has been what viewers have been hoping for for seasons now.
Some things I LOVED:
– Seeing all 3 dragons ! Be afraid Westerns!
– Ramsay and Jon’s first convo. EPIC !
– Sansa telling Jon she needs to listen to what she has to say too ! (is there something brewing btwn. the 2 of them? I foresee some issues)
– Some Rickon action – they teased us with Rickon…of course he was not going to survive. SAD THOUGH! Good they regained Winterfell so he can be properly buried next to Ned. Poor Shaggydog….Seems that direwolves are not longed for this world. Speaking of direwolves – where is Ghost???
– Theon convo with Tyrion/Dany was great. Wow has Theon taken a turn for the better…and Ramsay on the other hand…
– Jon being trampled of course was a scary moment, but of course, Bealish comes and saves the day. Saw that coming of course, but didn’t put it past GRRM to play with our minds once again.
– Wun Wun RIP 🙁
– Stark banners again lined the wall of Winterfell. HOORAY!
– Jon beating the crap out of Ramsay was the happiest I’ve been since watching the series I think until….
– Sansa sicking the dogs on Ramsay and his own dogs eating his face…and hopefully balls and everything else
All that being said – As good as this episode was, I cannot wait for next week! We will get some further developments on Bran (R+L=J??) … Cersei and her Trial by Seven (WF – BURN IT DOWN !?!?!) and I think Dany (hopefully) will finally be heading to Westeros. Can’t wait !
My biggest complaint about the episode is that it didn’t end like this:
Ramsay: My dogs won’t hurt me. My dogs are loyal.
Sansa: Who said anything about YOUR dogs. Ghost, to me.
*chomp chomp chomp chomp*
😛
Lord of the Pail,
Actually, you are very correct in this argument. I am bemused that I did not use this line of reasoning myself!
:tu:
This is true.
I prefer my characters grey. Even when their names are Stark.
Demon Monkey,
On rewatch Sansa makes it clear that while she didn’t tell Jon about the Vale possibility she did plead with him to wait. I think this conversation is redundant and boring tho so that’s all I’ll say.
Jehphg,
Honestly to me she seemed somewhat non-committal, like she’s just passively listening to him. Her expression doesn’t change at all when he leans in to kiss her forward, so I don’t see much remorse there at all. But we’ll see, I certainly hope he manages to connect with her about the wars to come.
I guess we all see different things in those brief snippets. I always said LF never looked surprised to me in his shot in the godswood and now we know he wasn’t surprised – he’s coming across Sansa.
Yeah it would have been nice to have seen Ghost
Personally I thought that it would have been a nice touch to have Ghost snarl and then whimpering/howling sadly at Shaggydogs head
But CGI costs and the inclusion of Wun Wun etc
Holy fuck what an episode! Happy for the Meereen resolution. The battle at winterfell lived up to the hype.
Looking forward to reading through more comments… quick scroll over the last 30 or 40 or so comments I am seeing quite the range of opinions/emotions… I suspect that is the inevitable result of one of the raddest hours of television ever, as observed by a fandom such as this. I am going to try my best not to pass judgement on Sansa’s first few rounds of “agency” until the season concludes next week…. but I do not like the looks she gave Jon from the battlefield. Was she a bit disappointed he survived? Did she withhold everything, in the end, as part of a greater strategy designed to leave her the last “Stark” standing? I don’t want to believe this was her motivation, but upon first watch, that is the feeling I get. Ugh. Littlefinger needs to go the fuck away.
Fuck me, just saw some bitter book purist call this episode “underwhelming”. I too had very high hopes for this episode, but it blew them out of the water. Undoubtedly the greatest TV field battle ever (and better than a lot of big budget films).
Remember this day and this episode people, because this will go down in the history of TV as a groundbreaking episode.
Dee Stark,
Mayhaps, you are right. Just for my own personal gratification, I would like Brienne and Sansa to knock at the door of the Twins in any case and leave the rest for next season. Here’s to hoping 🙂
Lord of the Pail,
Didn’t think of this angle but it is a fair point
This site used to be a place I came to to enjoy discussing the show with people who weren’t too incompetent or full of shit to separate the show from the books. Sadly, it seems to have descended into something very much like that.
It is beyond my comprehension after an episode as epic as this one that people’s first reaction is to nitpick and find fault somewhere, anywhere, so they can come out feeling morally outraged by something.
Any person with more than two brain cells to rub together could easily come to the conclusion that Sansa did not KNOW, for a certainty, that the Valemen were coming before the battle. And if she didn’t know, she couldn’t very well tell Jon to sit on his ass waiting for something that might never materialize.
But I’m wasting my words. A large and vocal group of naysayers are determined to find fault with anything that isn’t spelled out for them, and I want no part in it anymore.
The dragons, back together and attacking the master’s ships, simply took my breath away.
I was very scared for Tormund. Glad he’s ok.
Pour one out for Wun Wun and Rickon.
I can’t believe I was happy to see f*cking Littlefinger.
I’m disappointed in myself that I looked away from Ramsay’s dog giving him a nice big kiss in a knee-jerk reaction. Won’t look away next viewing.
As for the CONSTANT Sansa hate, you fools need to put down the crackpipe. I’m over it. The fact that you didn’t like what she did does not instantly mean it’s shitty writing or “plot holes”, or as I like to call it, “This particular thing didn’t happen the way I wanted it to happen so I’m going to attemptto assert control by screaming plot hole because it makes me sound like I know WTF I’m talking about.”
If everyone did exactly the right or perfect or logical thing ALL the time, HOW BORING WOULD THAT BE?
Vyse,
No, my criticism is that by this season its a trope that has been used twice already. Something isn’t automatically bad because its a trope. But when its used repeatedly its lazy, boring and predictable.
eejazz,
People might have to finally accept that “good” and “evil” have no real place in the story save in developing the beliefs of characters. Daeny’s not evil. Walkers aren’t evil. Even sociopaths and psychopaths are not “evil”: they are sociopaths and psychopaths.
Indeed, this is one very realistic aspect of the show: the worst deeds are not from the psychopaths and sociopaths, but from the people who believe that they are working for some “good.”
A whole bunch of stuff happened that normally would drive me crazy, but pleased me instead.
Obviously Dany’s victory was going to be easy, but it was even easier than I imagined, not surprising as Dany is the special snowflake. So all three dragons are now obeying her along with the Dothraki, and Dany won a glorious victory without mussing a single strand of her glorious hair.
On the plus side, Yara was nice.
The Starks, not being special snowflakes, suffer. The last minute appearance of the Vale would have been hackneyed were it not for how good the battle was, and for Sansa’s decision to keep the Vale a secret.
As for Sans: All I can think of is that she used Ramsay and the Vale to kill off the other Stark heirs.
Rickon: Knowing that the Vale was in the cards would have kept Bolton from killing him, as Rickon is a valuable hostage. Sansa keeps the Vale a secret, which means Ramsay has no reason to keep hostages. Exit Rickon.
Jon: He’s a bastard, but he is male, so killing him and/or reducing the size of his army helps Sansa weaken a competitor. Hiding the Vale accomplishes this.
Ramsay: Sansa can’t be tied to an unpopular house like the Boltons. After using Ramsay to murder Rickon and weaken Jon, Sansa sends in the hounds.
Bran: The only heir standing between Sansa and Winterfell. I think she’ll stab/poison/gut/flay/burn/hang him.
OK she won’t. Obviously this is not what Sansa is doing. However, seeing her as the Stark Tywin is the only way I can make sense of her this season.
Bolton hounds are cute.
Laura,
I wanted that too but my sister was like “no he should die by his OWN hounds’ who he has used on others himself ”
I fully agree now.
Ashley,
I’m so tired of the Sansa bashing. Each season it is for a different reason. Hate because she’s a naive, romantic girl. Hate, because she’s weak. Hate, because she’s a victim. It gets tiresome.
She turned down LF’s offer of the Valenforces in the beginning because she, rightfully so, did not trust him – he always has an ulterior motive. Also, she believed the Northern houses would be behind their plight. Unfortunately, the Karstarks and the Umbers are the ones that deserve the wrath of us Stark-loving viewers. By the time she realized they didn’t have the forces they would need, she made a last ditched effort to rally the Vale forces. She had no idea if they would show or not.
Yes, perhaps she should have mentioned this to Jon in the first place, but she didn’t trust LF. Again, for very very good reasons. If she had mentioned to Jon, last minute, that she sent out a plea for their help, I’m not sure he would have waited approaching Winterfell, and if they waited around for an answer , they would freeze and starve just like Stannis’ army.
Ugh,bin so tired of the Sansa arguments. 🙁
What I’m really concerned about is Lyanna Mormont! We need more of LM.
lol
Wonder if it was Kyra that gave the opening bite!
Wonder if Preston Jacobs review Ramsay now joins Chad Summerchild in the Dognet!
Wimsey,
she is Lady of Winterfell
I would have thought Bran in a patriachial society would be the Lord of Winterfell. I understand that they do not know as of now that he is alive. Or are we assuming that one who can bear no heirs cannot inherit and that Bran’s paralysis affects that ability?
Firannion,
You know as well as I, no matter how long he’s gone on about something, no matter how often and how loudly he’s banged his drum over, and over, and over, when he’s shown to be wrong, he won’t admit it. It’s a recurring theme. Ah well, it takes all different personalities, I suppose. 🙂
Lyanna_Targaryen,
This
Nadia,
I hope not Nadia, I really do, maybe I saw something of myself in there, in moments of regret when you know you did wrong by people that depend on you or/and love you and you really have nothing to say, i think she looked like that.
Ginevra,
Those were both interesting interviews. I was talking with someone about the possible background of the battle -we thought it might have been battle of Bonsworth field. But it wasn’t :
Two brain cells to rub together? Well, aren’t you demanding!
😀
Seriously, we had to suspect it: but we know much, much more about LF’s machinations than Sansa does. Sansa did not know that LF had gotten Cersei to sign off on taking the Vale troops into the North. Sansa did not know that LF had been maneuvering for a while to do this for reasons that are not clear even to long-time book readers. Moreover, people always fear that the worst will happen: it’s our nature. So, no, Sansa could never tell Jon that the Vale is coming: she didn’t know until sometime during the battle. And she probably was ashamed/upset at herself in retrospect for declining the offer: but who here has not felt like that in retrospect about something?
So they write in tension into this battle scene by having our Hero, and a smart, experienced commander — do the STUPIDEST THING POSSIBLE. That everybody there who is involved knows is stupid — because despite being killed and resurrected, he still has the Stark flaw of emotional attachment to his family? And he just loses it?
That’s as good as you got D&D?
Seriously: that was some fan fic bullshit. The ending doesn’t save it.
Yes, it was gruesome, yes it was tense, and yes, Ramsay dies in the end. But what Lord would follow Jon Snow now? He just destroyed nearly all of the Free Folk with that nonsense.
And the rest of the posters here seem to approve. Whatever.
That episode was fan fiction on a 40 million dollar budget.
NOT happy.
HousePotterz,
I fully agree with you
Also, if this season’s taught me anything, it’s that I better call Davos and Jorah next time I lose something small in a big open space under environmental conditions less than fit for seeking. Or at least get them on my team for next Easter’s egg hunt.
Cogman just tweeted they screened this tonight at the Academy theater here in LA, one of the largest and best venues in the world. Man, if IMAX this and release it, I’m there.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Um, who is saying it’s a plot hole? It’s obvious not – it’s a deliberate choice they made for a character, and one can dislike it.
Also, considering we don’t actually KNOW how Sansa is going to turn out, all the people stating “it all makes perfect sense what she did, she’ll never prefer LF to Jon or try and take power” are just as much speculating as anyone else. But it’s amusing that everyone is speculating, because we can see her character going down a darker path but don’t know where it leads, but you criticize people for saying she might not have the best intentions in the long run? ok!
You could just as much be wrong about her character as I could be wrong about her character.
Ghosts Lunch,
Yes she was trying to warn him about Ramsay pulling some kind of dirty underhanded tactic but of course she couldn’t know what it would be. I just don’t like the way she goes about talking to Jon, to me she sounds antagonistic. She needs to support him, give her brother some battle courage not cut him down where he had to defend himself by reminding her what he’s been through at the Wall. He needs to know what Ramsay’s all about and what he might expect but surely that could have come out before this point.
I am assuming that someone missing and presumed dead will not be considered Lord of Anything until that person ceases to be missing and presumed dead. Bran might eventually become Lord of Winterfell: but for the foreseeable future, Sansa will be the Lady of Winterfell.
To be fair it may be a case of awkward shoe-horning of the book plot into position
Eg Sansa may turn up with HtH et al in a similar moment in the books, where Jon wouldn’t be aware
Which makes Sansa’s non-telling of Jon a bit more like the omission of Tysha and the irrationality of Tyrion going to Tywins chamber etc
That and the thing with LF being that you have to visually confirm he’s coming because, y’know he’s slippery which Sansa knows
So even though I was irritated with the build-up I think they may have just about argued their way out of it, even if it isn’t quite 100% convincing this isn’t the first awkward shoe-horn in the show so it can be considered a writing issue rather than a character issue
Will ultimately wait and see for next week, eg to see if they address it conincingly or not
I can’t think of any of the major perpetrators of horrors on this show that fit that description. The closest would be Mel, but her crimes pale in comparison to people like Joffrey and Ramsay.
I do find it funny that people say ‘Jon would’ve adjusted strategy if Sansa had told him about the Vale!’
Jon threw what strategy he did have to the winds and was directly responsible for his entire battle plan going down the drain, which meant that all of his own army charged right into the space where arrows were raining down, making their own archers – and the Wildlings seem to be pretty good at this archery business – completely ineffectual. This does mean that Jon was definitely responsible for many deaths, too. If he’d stuck to the plan instead of being such an emotional little boy, they wouldn’t have been in such a bad position. And he would’ve had the bloodrush and done exactly that even if he’d known about the Vale, because he did not make a logical decision anyway.
Plus, any guarantee that Jon would’ve listened to Sansa? Because the one piece of information Sansa gave him – don’t play games with Ramsay, he is better at it than you are, and he will bait you, don’t take the bait – was forgotten and he was thoroughly played by Ramsay. If she’d said ‘look maybe there’s an army coming, led by the man who played a big part in getting our dad killed,’ what would his reaction have been, exactly? Logical and cold-blooded? That would be out of character for Jon.
Really, all the talk that Sansa is responsible for all the death when all she had was the vague possibility that the Vale might come, after Jon got his people killed by charging like a complete idiot, and making them charge – bit much. Jon is not very good at strategy. Also not very good at making calculated decisions when taunted. Maybe he’ll learn from this, because he’s obviously an end game character and if he keeps making mistakes like this, he’s going to be so easily played every time.
As for Sansa – she completely let go of her pride by asking for help from LF, which is very powerful. She also saw the moment Jon tried to play mind games with Ramsay that there was no point trying to tell Jon much, because Jon simply did not know Ramsay, and didn’t seem interested in understanding his enemy.
LF has always impressed me as someone not interested in sex. For example, his comment about just get on with it if the woman is ugly seems like the remark of someone pretending to experience. Perhaps his lack of interest makes it easy to run a brothel/spy shop.
He was infatuated with Cat, and maintains that immature fantasy view of Cat as an ideal. Sansa is the living woman on his pedestal. If he ever married her, he would not know what to do with her.
I don’t think Sansa is turning into LF, but it was frustrating to watch the lack of communication on her part and her not telling Jon why he should listen to her. It all felt like very artificial drama. I get what she’s been through, but Jon isn’t Ramsay, or Tormund, or Mel. She said so herself.
Also, please die Littlefinger!
So the WOTW “spoiler” from last November that LF, Sansa, Jon, and Ramsay unite to fight off a giant in Winterfell turns out to be completely wrong. It sounded stupid back then and I’m glad it wasn’t true.
If it was a plant by D&D, excellent job with the misinfo, fellas.
Nadia,
I think that’s a great assessment, and there was no doubt you were a big Jon fan. 😉 I see it differently, but I have a different perspective. I think they will come together. It may not be all sunshine and roses, but I see them being on the same side, at the very least.
As for those who lost their minds over Sansa, last year, a lot of those folks were big book-Sansa fans, and could not abide the idea they put her
Yes, there were other complaints, but I think those who screamed the loudest were either hard-core book Sansa fans, or those who don’t like diversions from the books.
Yeah fair enough
They obviously did various takes of “I choose violence” so this perhaps could have had a different take get used
Sean C.,
Tywin, Roose, the High Sparrow, Mel, Stannis, etc., all fit this description quite well. Tywin in particular trumps all of the other characters in the “evils” he has perpetrated in the name of his “family-first” morality.
Do you think there will be any consequences for her for withholding this information or will this be something we are supposed to forget?
Sansa having no guarantee of the Valemen coming is still no excuse for withholding that information. It literally would have hurt no one if she had told Jon about it Then they would all have decided what would be the right course of action with that new intel in mind. She didn’t mind delaying the battle anyway regardless of the Vale. They are supposed to be a team. You don’t hide things from your teammates, unless you have ulterior motives.
Oh dear, I just realized that Ramsay set the flayed man burning crosses SPECIFICALLY as range markers for Rickon’s “game”
If you do not think that Jon will do something like this in the books, then you have not understood what you are reading.
The Bastard,
Get over yourself. The point of the comment section is for fans to discuss the show. Good or bad. Let folks dish out their frustration. Doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate the show.
crimethink,
Oh yeah, forgot about that! Interesting. Maybe there was a scene and they just filmed different versions.
Nadia,
Interesting points
My book theory at least is that she does rival her siblings as symbolised by Lady dying, takes over in the RL which is why I think it would have been good to have BF by her side
It is remotely possible they hedged their bets with BF off-screen death, eg they may change their minds and have him escaped
It is also possible they are hedging their bets with Jon vs Sansa
Eg all depending on how long they want to go for, so if it’s shorter seasons and on S7 they may just do them on the same side so all is forgiven, though they may opt to have them divide if they have the time to do it all
Interesting
In other questions
Who was on the crosses?
Secondly
Anyone see what happened to Harald Karstark?
Jumbo,
Yes but you see she’s allowed to make mistakes for no rational reason and also you hate strong women
So Sansa did betray Jon, correct? I think she did. (Gandalf at least told Aragorn to look for him, Sansa did not).
“Grabbing what you can for your own aggrandizement” is not a meaningful notion of doing good. Mel and the High Sparrow, sure, but neither of them are very high on the list of heinous people; the High Sparrow, especially, has been doing a lot of good by taking on the nobles for running Westeros into a ditch.
Sean C.,
I guess Tywin would be the closest. To me Joffrey and Ramsey fit the socio-/pyscho- mode. Tywin genuinely believed that he was doing best for House Lannister (which really meant him of course). Stannis believed he was the rightful King of Westeros and that it was his duty to do everything in his power to achieve that (aided by Mel’s telling him that he must be king before the Long Night or that everyone would perish).
ghost of winterfell,
The preview implies they’re talking about trust. So I’ll guess we have to see if it’s related to the Vale army. At the same time, it wouldn’t surprise me if the show completely ignores that. They ignored reactions to Jon’s resurrection and it took 9 episodes for someone to ask Jon about the NW (and it turned out to be Ramsay).
rhymeswithweak,
I agree, I kind of got the feeling she wanted jons supporters to die. Probably bc she wants winterfell. I can’t think of any other reason why she would keep the vale army a secret. Even Brienne called her on her BS for lying. I’m getting a bad vibe from her, after next week I will decide whether or not I support her. If she sides with LF over jon, she’s dead to me. If she has LF killed then, and only then, I will consider her a badass like Dany, Arya, and Yara.
LMFAO!!! Best comment of the night.
Seriously, best episode ever! Epic, awesome, entertaining, exciting. Wow, just wow. I was certainly entertained! My entire family was whooping, hollering, cheering, and having an amazing time.
Davos survived. Couldn’t be happier.
Dragon play date. Epic.
It’s the little things too that make this show so great: The littlefinger smirk, Lyanna Mormont’s epic stink eye (just think about Lyanna+Ollie=Pinch Face Stink Eye Offspring), the Kibbles and Boltons face crunch, Grey Worm’s dagger double tap, Tormund’s “Happy Shitting” comment, Davos shooting “your ass is mine” laser beams from his eyes at Mel, the entire Dany/Yarra meeting (her ass looked amazing in those pants and I need to know where she got them like now), etc.
And that one scene, Jon’s choreography on the field, with horses and men coming at him, slashing and dodging, just wow. It was just singular.
So many great moments and we will be watching again and again.
Cameryn,
Yes! Thank you! The last person she’d want help from is Littlefinger which I think is why she didn’t tell anyone about the raven she sent – doesn’t even want to admit to herself that she’d ask him for help. BUT she’d rather that than have Ramsey win and she wasn’t gonna say she had an army on the way because she didn’t know if they’d be coming or not. It’s not like she got a raven from LF saying ‘be right there’ or something.
That was the Saving Private Ryan of medieval battle scenes. Epic.
As for the Sansa thing everyone’s so hung up on, Jon is addressing it in the preview for next week. Maybe let’s all take a breath and wait to complain until we hear how that goes down? If it’s a terrible excuse, then by all means continue your ranting, but for now it’s just annoying steam in every single comment at this point. Move on. There was SO MUCH good in this episode to complain about Sansa…
Mr.Bungle,
Totally agree. Actually, I was surprised reading the comments here. People really didn`t understand why she didn`t tell him?
Total war player,
Miguel mentions that problem in the above interview
Aten'tDead,
Whatever Jon did or didn’t do doesn’t negate that Sansa withholding info about the Vale army did cause unnecessary death to her side. I do hope they address it. (It seems from the previews that maybe Jon does confront her and reassures her that she should trust him going forward).
Nadia,
I suspect it was willful deception on the part of the showrunners. The bodies burning on the Bolton crosses were not known characters either, another fake spoiler from October.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Well here’s the bright side – as much as there IS a bright side with Winter coming!! The show for some reason never had Jon and Sansa talk about the WWs or what’s beyond the Wall, which I find curious, but as far as we know Sansa does believe it all. So, in the end, it’s the wars to come that matter.
I thought that conversation between them really showed us how different they are – that they both think they “get it” for different reasons. Sansa thinks she gets it because she knows how certain minds work (Ramsay’s, but she was also dead wrong about the North). Jon thinks he gets it because he’s fought WWs, but he’s also wrong about the human element – he didn’t understand the NW and he didn’t understand Ramsay. So in a way, they’re perfect complements. Thus, it didn’t sit well to me that she just stood there and stewed about not being listened to and then withheld information from him – she basically did the very thing she was complaining about! But he WAS willing to listen, he does admit when he’s wrong. She’s the one who hasn’t been willing to trust him, not fully.
But also, Jon perhaps doesn’t respect her knowledge as power and I don’t really think Sansa respects Jon’s abilities, from having never seen him. So I hope next episode what we really do see is them coming together, not more divides.
(and then Arya comes to Winterfell and they all hug with sunshine and rainbows)
Sean C.,
doing a lot of good by taking on the nobles for running Westeros into a ditch.
As of the end of ADWD IMO the book!Sparrows fit that bill. They deplore the profaning of Baelor by Ned’s beheading, the Red Wedding, the raping of septas, and in general are the ONLY ones concerned about anyone other than the nobility.
They have yet to do anything resembling what the show!Sparrows have done. Of course they have TWOW to devolve into such fanaticy (I’m not even sure that is a word but it fits). Given what I understand Martin’s views on organized religion are, I would not be surprised to see them go that direction.
The show!HS is a much more malevolent character than his book counterpart currently appears to be (appears as we only have Cersei POV through which to view them).
Mawk,
She didn’t mention it because she knew Jon would get hot headed and rush in. It worked.
I’m not going to feel that my northern favourites are ‘safe’ (as it were) until the end of Ep.10.
Tycho Nestoris,
She definitely withheld information, essentially lying to his face. To me, a betrayal also involves malicious motives though, and I don’t think we have any evidence of that – not yet anyway. I think Sansa made a bad (and costly) mistake, but I don’t think she purposefully betrayed Jon. We will hopefully learn more soon though.
Damn Danny back at it again with the burning slavers with dragon fire.
To be fair, Jon was dead for 2 episodes and still at Castle Black acting as LC for the third, so there’s no way it would have come up then. Edd also challenged his interpretation of the NW oath in ep 4.
Looper,
Why? That would be the adult thing to do and it would spoil all of our fun calling each other names. It takes me back to kindergarten.
Pigeon,
I think there’s going to be some intriguing back and forth between Jon and Littlefinger, since LF has an army now and Jon really doesn’t. Sansa will be caught in the middle. So who runs Winterfell?
No. Sansa had no reason to think that the Vale would arrive. Sansa not telling Jon that they might get lucky and see an army turn up because she wrote a raven asking for it when she has no reason to think that it will come is not “betrayal.”
People have to understand that the characters do not not know as much as we do about a lot of things: and Sansa does not know a huge chunk of what LF is doing.
Calling it. Jon will banish Mel and Arya will kill her. Also it’s shapping up to be quite a fighters in the Noth Tormund, Hound, Thoros, Beric, Brienne etc. Also Harald Karstark seems to survive.
Dee Stark,
Maybe ´tis Jamie who slaughters all the Freys in a shocking twist of events! 😉
I dug this episode so much. I’m a really happy fan right now. The Battle of the Bastards is a magnificently executed hour of television that stands out as being one of the most impressive installments of the series as a whole. Everything, from the script to the acting to the music to the cinematography and to the aforementioned direction fell neatly into pieces as seasons’s worth of storytelling for Daenerys and the North culminated in magnificent displays of fire and ice. Rapid moment after moment arrives, stopping just long enough to give its characters some well-earned respite before the trembling of the earth begins once more, but even those moments are brimming with unbridled, absolute tension. Damn, “Thrones”! https://goo.gl/qRWXEr
How much of that was mislead, and how much of that was us blowing it way out of proportion? We were all convinced that we’d recognize the people on the crosses. However, fans are really really good at blowing things way out of proportion. Did we do that here?
AlexG,
I would like that
Though was hoping a little needle will make him meet his end
But I don’t see it happening anymore
Something has to happen there or why show that scene. It would be a waste lol
Good point….and when/if Jon is ‘legitimized’ (although I’m not sure who would have the authority to do that), there could be an interesting power struggle. LF has just saved their arses, after all. Mind you, I have never seen Jon as someone who wants to rule at all. He wants that dang vacation that he almost got to go on. 😉
OMG! What spectacular CGI in this episode! When Rhaegal looked to make sure Viserion was coming and so was Drogon, and then the three sibs went to work, it was a moment of sheer, utter perfection and beauty! I forgot that these were not real creatures!
The character beats in the battle up north were great, the actual battle scenes went too long, and left me a little nauseated – all hand-to-hand onscreen combat does. But Tormund and Davos, Jon and Sansa, Jon and Mel, Jon and Ramsay, all really great. The last scene of Sansa walking away with a little smile on her face – so Cersei-like! Awesome!
Sansa.
Can I just say that they worked so so hard for this episode especially the battle which took a month to film. Seriously we are so lucky!!!!!!!
Also – Davos AND tormund survived yaay ???
The only bad thing that the show HS has done that book HS didn’t do is imprison Loras. The book HS would have done the same if Loras’ orientation were known rather than only being hinted at as it was in the books. Indeed unlike his show counterpart, book HS actually tortures people.
Had to watch it late due to HBO NOW not working and Basketball!
I just find it interesting that I haven’t seen anyone commenting on Ramsey’s line to Sansa at the end; “I’m part of you now”, something like that. Anyone else thinking Sansa might be pregnant??
Dee Stark,
The battle was incredible but the little moments I died over.
Most specifically, I live for Lyanna Mormont’s “bitch please” stare of digust at Ramsay. She was not having any of it.
Davos and Tormund, with the history of Stannis between them, and Tormund in his own way caring for Jon and telling him to get sleep. If any of them had died I would’ve cried buckets.
She had at least one. The raven.
Wimsey,
I wouldn’t be so sure.
There may be a Stark flag flying, but “House Littlefinger” runs Winterfell… Jon’s down to a couple hundred troops.
And what is the speculation about that worm, Karstark? The hounds are probably still hungry…
Other characters have done far worse things than Sansa ever did or would with no vitriol. How many lives were lost because Robb broke his marriage pact? Or because Tyrion used wildfire? Or because Theon wanted Winterfell? What about the lives lost because Arya didn’t think to use one of her deaths on Tywin back in Harrenhal?
Sansa even gets more hate than Joffrey and Ramsay! It’s absolutely ridiculous. I’m not even going to try and reason with Sansa haters. I’ve been attempting it for years over at Westeros. People are just determined. It’s hard for people to deal with a female character that isn’t given masculine coded traits like Arya and Brienne but are still not just there to be a love interest, whore, or mother. The Catelyn hate is similarly over the top. It’s similar to the hate Skylar got from Breaking Bad fanbros too.
It’s quite disappointing that people’s reaction to that incredible episode was mostly weirdly intense hatred for Sansa. Or anger that there wasn’t an unexpected plot twist. Because apparently out of the blue plot twists = good storytelling now.
I’m honestly starting to not want to comment here anymore because the negativity gets worse every year.
Anyone know of a site where you can discuss this show with people who actually like it?
http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/thrones-stages-epic-battle-what-end-238453
Myles not impressed.
Nadia,
People who hate strong women gonna hate. *shrug*
It’s doesn’t matter what Sansa does, it’ll always be wrong to those threatened by ballsy chicks.
Thinking she has deliberate designs to fuck Jon over is objectively wrong, as BryndenBfish would say. And says more about the person who believes it than about Sansa Stark herself.
You’re allowed your opinion, so am I.
crimethink,
He went recruiting to all those houses. You’d think someone would have brought it up.
They did a great job with Rickons death. The emphasis on the second to last arrow that misses right then it cuts to the almost reunion and the first arrow we don’t see Ramsay shoot. I had been spoiled by some a holes who couldn’t stop posting about it but it still gave me pause. I think they also did a damn good job with conveying the random luck that helped keep Jon alive. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a medieval battle depicted this way. Truly great work. And they even made me fear for Jon twice without making it ridiculous. Well done.
Dee Stark,
Lol! 🙂 ps…from now on,every show is gonna seem dull to me ! Oh,and I loved GreyWorm´s dispatch of the two masters!
I also love how Jon proved what a Stark he is. Couldn’t follow Sansa’s one piece of advice that he thought was so obvious and fell into Ramsays trap. But Davos proved to be a good commander and saved his life.
kells,
Well said!
I think Jon’s plans would have changed if he thought there might be a huge army showing up to help a few minutes after he planned to attack. She should have told him to wait a little longer to give them a chance to show.
crimethink,
Did they close all the brothels? Beat the patrons? Upend the alcohol sellers and card games? I honestly do not recall. As everything is from Cersei’s POV, I’m not sure she would have cared. But my impression from the show is that, at least at the present, the show!Sparrows are much more militant. I’ll have to go back and look at that.
And yes there was the Walk of Shame for Cersei but book!Cersei had 3 or 4 infidelities, regicide, deicide, all the people she sent to Qyburn, killing all of Robert’s bastards, incest … She was much busier than show!Cersei. And Margaery never had the hint of a walk of shame. The Tyrell armed forces convinced the HS to free Margaery pending trial (of course since the charge there was adultery which appeard to be solely trumped up by Cersei, acquittal appears to be somewhat certain).
And Loras was busy, leading the Tyrell armies and taking Dragonstone and being mortally wounded for it. No time apparently to have Olyvar trace Dorne on him …
JohnnyLaw,
This would probably be where House Glover, House Cerwyn and most importantly House Manderly comes in. With the Boltons gone and the Starks firmly in control of Winterfell again, they would come and pay homage lest they fall too far out of favour.
Why is that a great battle scene or two are seen by some viewers as “the greatest television ever?” I mean, it’s “just” a battle scene. I can watch those on the big screen in actual movies – it probably looks better there than on my pc.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked this episode but I’m much more into storytelling and character development than watching men get killed in brutal, blood-spattering ways. It did look great but nothing much happened but people getting hacked to death. I hope we get more talking (not wasted on jokes) in ep 10.
PS I loved the dragons – as always the CGI is definitely topnotch and while great CGI doesn’t make for outstanding, great television, it definitely helps.
And I loved the way that they highlighted Ramsays selfish callousness with shooting his own men. He helped decimate his own army. And the levity with Tormund was great. And did anyone else notice that pause that Umver made when he came across Jon. Like he didn’t want to fight him. And Tormund pulling a Rick Grimes / Brienne of Tarth. And there were other things I wanted to praise but I am too tired. Perhaps I will remember tomorrow.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Yeah on this as I’ve said it’s been a juggling act all season, eg we have two seperate arcs in two different regions being crammed together
In this case you have to divide the dynamics up
Eg Jon vs Ramsay
Sansa vs Ramsay
Jon Sansa
In the case of Sansa it seems to be a theme where by playing the Vale card she has outmaneovered Ramsay as much as “saving Jon”. Later on she shows her LF side in the way she kills Ramsay (in the showverse this may actually make her a kinslayer…)
Then there is Jon vs Ramsay, at the end of the battle they basically have Jon with Wun Wun leading the storming of it, and he gets revenge for Rickon by deflecting his arrows (with a Mormont shield) and beating the crap out of him
Jon Sansa gets awkward, I suspect there’s a possibility of a Stark civil war in the books as Rickon is the heir based around Robbs Will on one hand and Sansa marrying Tyrion on the other, eg some Northern Lords (especially Mormonts) would back Jon while the RL would likely back Sansa
I think the show is undecided and hedging their bets though depending on how much WoW material there is and how many episodes left etc
Looper,
Funny you should mention that. DH was watching the battle with me; afterwards turns to me and says ‘you covered your eyes during the Private Ryan battle and asked me to tell you when its over. And you were able to watch this???’ Did have to laugh – I normally don’t like battle scenes and normally don’t watch graphic violence if I can avoid it. But Ive come to love the characters and the show, so …..there we are Even after 25 years, we can still surprise each other… 🙂
Here lies Ramsay Bolton nee Snow. He died valiantly protecting the realm from an army of wildlings and giants led by a zombie traitor of the Nights Watch.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Arbitrarily withholding potentially vital information is so strong and ballsy.
I also loved the dragons and thought the violence was overwhelming. But I think u r missing some messages here about the luck and randomness and evil and brutality of war. Not to mention the clever ways in which they played the story out.
Once again though Sapochnik has gone a fantastic job combining great cinematics by tying all the events of the battle into personal stories between the combatants, eg the suffocating part in particular etc, tying in the grit unromantic side of it all with character development.
The part where Jon is almost slowly suffocated in the stampede while his army is being slowly crushed was fantastic
It’s interesting to see the burgeoning debate, for mine this is obviously to do with the writing and not directing but it also shows that it wasn’t a mere mindless battle, there were characters and stories involved
Eg should Sansa have told Jon? Jon allowed himself to be manipulated. This happens in Throne Rooms etc but it also happens on the actual battlefield,
eg Jon cracked but so did Napolean/Ney with the French Cavalry charge at Waterloo which got ripped apart by British Squares, and Marc Antony cracked and followed Celopatras ship at Actium etc. This sort of thing happens just as much in a Throne Room so in a way it’s a nice reversal of Robbs situation
And it also ties in nicely with last weeks episode, eg Winterfell was taken by battle, yet Riverrun is taken by a Throne Room type talk so the two combine nicely
Tycho Nestoris,
Sansa had to meet up with LF somewhere. Once she rode off from Jon, where did she ride to? Did she just happen to be where LF and the Knights of the Vale could find her? Or did she receive communication from LF at some point after the battle started? I realizxe this made for a good visual (and perhaps more) so it was important to show her at LF’s side so I’m not questioning that.
I find betray a strong word. She lied to him. Whether she had good reason seems to be what everyone is arguing about.
The north remembers,
I guess it’s possible that she’s just a product of her time, and still has a problem with the idea of the Wildlings being south of the Wall? Perhaps she just wanted them removed from the equation? But honestly, I think we’re being set up for an epic act of “almost betrayal” by Sansa.
You really got to admire how much of a controversial character Sansa is, regardless of whether you like her or not.
Since the very first season, after every episode she is either ruthlessly attacked or vehemently defended.
It’s pretty funny that in a world full of gray characters like ASOIAF, the most divisive character is the snobby, overly idealistic princess wannabe.
Good job Martin/D&D!
In hindsight, I wonder if Smalljon Umber was the lord who gave the speech and changed allegiance, allegiance from Stark to Bolton. That was definitely a “speech” he gave to Ramsay.
Demon Monkey,
And I loved the way that they highlighted Ramsays selfish callousness with shooting his own men.
Yes,thought exactly the same, he had more men so he could afford to lose men more than Jon/Sansa/Davos. It was a clever move on his part in the short run and I guess now that is all that mattered.
Lady Snow,
I think that may be in the future. Not necessarily in the sense of chainging sides during battle but not having been at the battle to begin with.
Lyanna_Targaryen,
Mmm yes, I hate strong ballsy women….who lie?
I’m assuming you don’t read the books, or are choosing to ignore the myriad of ways that the show, the show runners, and the actors have mentioned that Sansa is an ambiguous character. The fact that you can’t fathom that Jon and Sansa wouldn’t trust each other after this and just call everyone a hater seems somewhat shortsighted.
But don’t just take my opinion, I’m apparently just a woman-hater. What about AV Club, which consistently raves about this show:
“But whereas the other episodes ended with the sense that the battle that just took place would change these characters’ fate, here it just felt like the show was pushing Ramsay out of the way, intending to just keep telling the same stories it was telling before: Jon and Sansa’s mistrust”
“but I remain wholly confused by the nature of Sansa’s communication with Littlefinger: We saw her write him a letter, but was he always planning to ride in? Why was he late? Why was she with him? Did she know when talking strategy with Jon that Littlefinger might be coming? Why wouldn’t she tell Jon to wait? Why is she hiding this from Jon other than—and here’s where the meta comes back—ensuring that there’s an epic underdog battle that lets the show one-up itself?”
http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/thrones-stages-epic-battle-what-end-238453
Or is everyone just a strong woman hater lol?
Nymeria the Wolf,
I didn’t before, but now that there might be a question of who has Winterfell – a Stark with a Bolton child might just be the ticket
BTW, What happens when Tyrion comes back to Westeros and discovers what his wife has been up to?
Demon Monkey,
Yeah it was a good way of tying in character traits to how it comes to pass that the Boltons have no leftover Cavalry despite outnumbering Stark Cavaly significantly beforehand, opening things up for the foot battles
You are not the only one. Daenerys and her three children neutralizing the attacking fleet, was my most favorite scene of this entire season! It was so, so so, good to see Rhaegal and Viserion flying free with Drogon and Mom. She reminded me of her ancestor, Aegon. Not too much destruction but enough that the enemy retreats right away. The Tyrion-Daenerys scene and their scene with the Greyjoy sibs (in my opinion, the Targ sibs meeting the Greyjoy sibs! 😉 ) were also really great!
ygritte,
She never wanted them to go into battle with so few men, that’s been her entire argument to Jon so how was she willing to sacrifice others? She also didn’t know whether LF and the vale army would help so again I’m not sure what you mean. Anyway you can believe she’s selfish, that’s fine, I never argued otherwise. I never argue that Sansa’s actions are “right” or “wrong,” these conversations don’t interest me. They’re easily the most boring debates you can have imo, and almost never scratch the surface of the character and their motivations. My point is her decision makes sense, and it’s not unreasonable for her to want some control over her own life, instead of everyone around her making decisions that directly affect her (and THEY DO constantly!).
Anyway if this episode showed one thing, it’s that Sansa knows what she’s about and she’s not “dumb” as people here often claim. She knew Rickon wouldn’t live, and she warned Jon about Ramsey and Jon went and did exactly what Ramsey wanted him to do which didn’t exactly help them either.
Jon’s Grandma (on the Stark side),
Meant to respond before – yes Im in the east valley; where abouts are you?
I think u make some valid points here about how much hate Sansa gets and Catlyn as well. Their mistakes really aren’t worse than Neds or Robbs.
In the end, I think we might do better to just not indulge those who hate Sansa for vein who she is. We just feed their comments. It’s their POV and it seems they aren’t going to be swayed.
For the record, I hated Skyler. Can’t explain why, except the perspective of the show is Walters, and for that reason I think she doesn’t start to become sympathetic until the last season or so. But that’s another show.
Ravyn,
My opinion (conjecture only): Jon – or Sansa depending – do have an Army now that they’ve won.
Since they’ve retaken Winterfell, I suspect most of the North will unite under the Stark banner again. There will be some politicking, but the houses that either didn’t come to their aid or sided with the Boltons will take a knee. Either that or full-on civil war breaks out in the North.
The Umbers are left without a leader (reportedly Smalljon died in the battle tonight, though I haven’t watched closely enough to confirm), and the house they supported (Bolton) is now gone.
The Karstark guy – if he didn’t die in the battle – will be executed if caught. If not caught, he’s without his army and without a powerful ally. There are no other known heirs if he indeed dies.
The Glovers declined to help Jon, Sansa and the Wildlings, but there’s deep history there. They may sit and sulk but ultimately they also lost the help of the Boltons tonight.
Plus, Sansa is still technically Lady Bolton, even if she is a widow.
Once Meera is back, she can bring the Reeds into the fold, especially because Bran is the true heir to Winterfell.
We also still don’t know what happened to the Tully soldiers after they surrendered Riverrun. My guess is they’re on their way to Winterfell.
The Vale is it’s own constituent region, and there’s no reason to believe they’d stay in the North vs returning home. Northern families wouldn’t unite under a Vale warden anyways. If LF thinks to claim Winterfell as his own, marrying Sansa is the only way to have any chance of holding it or extending his reach in the North. Which from the preview it’s clear that’s his intent, but I just don’t see Sansa falling for it.
Personally, I’m just hoping we haven’t seen the last of little Lyanna Mormont!
Gonna be brutally honest here. Sansa is not a strong woman and never has been. She is still useless for anything but begging men for help (Jon, Blackfish, and now Littlefinger). She contributed nothing to Jon’s army; neither the Wildlings nor the Mormonts gave her the slightest regard. The only person who’s actually loyal to her is Brienne, whose loyalty Sansa did not earn herself. Brienne is just fulfilling orders from Cat and Jaime.
Nadia,
Tbh I suspect a lot of people don’t trust show Sansa because of her book character being projected into the show dynamic
Eg she DID betray book Ned so people suspect the same thing may be happening with Jon
And in the Alayne WoW chapter she has a rather contemptuous attitude toward Sweetrobin so we don’t know if Sansa is thinking the same in relation to Jon, after all in AGoT she gets into arguments with Arya over her snidy dislike of Jon being a bastard (then has to put up with the same as “Littlefingers Bastard”)
There’s a thing as well that viewers, watchers who like Strong women hate her as she isn’t stabby enough
Don’t think it’s about “hating strong women”, eg Asha (Yara) and Lyanna Mormont are great, Arya is great etc, Brienne is good etc
It was hard to believe that she survived the fall off of Winterfell’s walls in last season’s finale without any injuries… but it would be nearly impossible to believe she didn’t lose the baby if she was pregnant when she did it.
Oh god I just finished the episode!!!!! Fuuuuccccckkkk YEAH! Release the hounds Sansa!! Ahhh, he’s gone!! Thank the fucking Stranger. So goddamn satisfying. Where’s Miss Dee?? I need to joyfully dance with someone over Ramsay’s demise!
Oh that Dany scene in the beginning made up for any doubts I had. Dragons make everything better!! Go Dany and Yara go!
Funny thing is I was so worked up watching the battle I think my dog was absorbing my energy… I’ve never seen him chew his toy so furiously haha I cheered through a lot of the episode. This was seriously the best ever.
Can we kill the notion that Dany is gonna go “mad” like her father did. I think this episode cleared that up. lol
Darkrobin,
Bran’s the heir. In a primogeniture, sons take precedence over daughters, eldest first. So it would go Robb-Bran-Rickon, then Sansa-Arya. Had Robb had a child, she or he would have outranked the other Stark children.
Even with Sansa in the running, Jon might have a shot if he were legitimized, or if he took Winterfell. Right now, Rickon is dead and Jon is weak. The Vale sent a powerful army, and they’re supporting Sansa. Bran is the only one standing between Sansa and Winterfell.
I don’t know why you have to hate women to think Sansa was up to no good.
Not telling Jon potentially cost thousands of lives and when I watched (I need to watch again) initially it seemed she was disappointed Jon survived the battle.
I don’t think she’s proven herself to be competent yet and still seems like that naive entitled little princess she always was. I could see vengeance as an overwhelming motivator and her understandable trust issues driving her to bad decisions.
That just my read, regardless of whether or not she has a vagina.
crimethink,
I dunno, if Arya managed to survive those stab wounds and live to tell the tale, I’d imagine Sansa would stay safe from that jump and perhaps still be pregnant, if she actually is.
Highlighted because I think Brienne making good on her oath to Cat, was secondary to fulfilling Jaime’s promise. She was quick to give back Oathkeeper, saying the promise is complete but how fast she forgot there is another Stark girl out there that she knows is alive. This still bugs.
And I totally think Brienne will
Though this is speculation that I am sure will be discussed over the week leading up to the episode.
One thing about coming to this fan site I have realized is that though the theories and speculation is fun and intricate; the show followed the straitest path. The elaborate hypothesizes seem to be more plausible for the books. But the speculation is fun all the same
crimethink,
She looked twice as Ramsey’s dogs ate him alive, then smirked as she walked away. That seems pretty not-weak to me.
God, what predictable nonsense that was. Gone are the days when this show had me on the edge of my seat, wondering what was going to happen next. What happened in the episode could’ve been easily predicted or written by anyone. I thought D & D would be up to the task when the show surpassed the books. I was wrong. This has become like anything else on TV. R.I.P. my favorite show, it was fun for 5 seasons while it lasted.
weirwoodtreehugger,
Lol if people sometimes don’t like some of the characters on the show that means they must not like the show and you want to take your ball and go play somewhere else? Sorry, you will find no such place that exists where everyone loves the same people you do.
That really doesn’t hold water though. She was the one who convinced Jon to raise an army to attack the Boltons earlier in the season. Jon wanted no part in it originally. And as far as Jon knew, the army they had now was all they were going to get, in which case waiting would have been a terrible idea. Maybe if Sansa told him there was a chance that the much bigger Vale army would arrive to help, he would have waited.
Dire Moon Moon:
crimethink,
She looked twice as Ramsey’s dogs ate him alive, then smirked as she walked away.That seems pretty not-weak to me.
I don’t consider that to be strength. Certainly not a useful kind of strength.
Allthegoodnamesaregone,
Or you know Jon abandoning his strategy and falling for Ramsey’s trap cost thousands of lives but y’know blame Sansa.
I can’t even take the idea that she looked ‘disappointed’ at Jon being alive seriously. You can’t be serious.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
So you’ll never watch the show again, and we’ll never have to read your whining again. Whew! Good to know.
Dire Moon Moon,
Why do you get so offended when someone has a different opinion than you? Don’t worry about it, your opinion is still valid, even if not every single person validates it for you.
Demon Monkey,
I didn’t notice that. Can’t wait to rewatch tomorrow after I’ve had some sleep. So happy we didn’t lose either Tormund or Davos. As for the latter, I find not very interested in him fidning out about Shireen at this point in the game. Seems like too late and makes it a mokey wrench in the flow. I know many will disagree.
crimethink,
Yes she convinced Jon to go into battle, but it’s not like they really had a choice after Ramsey’s letter. But she did not want him to go with so little men, she made a case that they did not have enough men over and over again. She wanted to try and recruit more men. I don’t understand what you’re arguing.
Well all I can say was WOW…this episode definitely I will rate as my number one ep 9 now. Have watched twice just to be sure.
I agree with Wimsey and Lonerice re Sansa, she is taking control and chances with her own destiny re littlefinger. She did the best with what she had (or had hoped for) she warned John about Ramsey (did he listen? No ) even told him she would take her own life if need be if they lost. I have know doubt that John and Sansa are united, I hope they can stay that way where little finger is concerned) Tormund biting Smalljohns jugular then stab to the eye…gruesome yet fitting.
Rickon dying was heartbreaking but inevitable to have John tricked out of position.
Wun Wun,,,,well all I can say is that he and Hodor stand apart of the pack in Top Hero positions!
Ramsy, obviously finally got what he deserved and if I was Sansa I would be smiling too, he caused thousands to die not her.
Loved Tyrion snapping Dany out of conqueror mode ala Dothraki, and giving her counsel was uplifting but not as much as seeing those Dragons and Dany doing her thang. Yes CGI very cool this round.
Davos and Mel shall be an interesting complex scene next week.
Hope Bran makes it to Winterfell as he is know the last true male heir and the only one to get the ball rolling against the NK.
Having said that we all know once he is south of that wall it’s gonna be coming down….ohhh dear sevens hell!!
Man… Just watched BoB again and I have to be honest.
This was the best medieval battle scene I have ever seen. You actually felt like you were right there!
And trust me I am a big nerd when it comes to this stuff, I have seen Braveheart, Troy, Alexander the Great, 300, LotR and tons of medieval battle scene stuff and this GoT TV show had so much strength and just pure grit.
Damn, Miguel did really up his game, Hardhome was good and beats BoB only in the horror element. In battle sequence and realism and just medieval warfare in general BoB takes the cake…
I challenge anyone here to link me a youtube video that has a more intense, amazingly brilliant medieval battle sequence.
After watching this episode twice, I’ve come to the conclusion that… it’s amazing!!! It’s not perfect, but I love it. 🙂 2 days ago I said I was ready to be surprised, heartbroken, and amazed. I was amazed, obviously. That scene of Jon trying to get out of the crowd looked like he was being birthed. That was a great sequence. I was heartbroken (RIP Rickon and Wun Wun!) but then I was appreciative that the writers spared Davos & Tormund. The only thing, I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised – that the Vale won’t be the one to save the day. That didn’t happen. Oh well, a girl can’t have it all. I have a feeling I’m gonna watch this again tomorrow. #addictedtoGOT
LonRice,
Jon was on the field trying to save his brother, fighting. Sansa was off grabbing the army she knew had a chance at arriving who she failed to mention and again in their most desperate time said nothing when Jon makes it clear he thinks no one else can come to their aid.
She was literally on her high horse looking down on the remnants of Jons army, LF played her well. IMHO
“If Ramsay wins, I’m not going there alive” Sansa is talking about suicide, right? From what I remember from the novels, sometimes, when she would do something risky (meet with Dontos for the first time, flee King’s Landing with him), she would bring a knife with her because she didn’t want to let the Lannisters hurt her anymore.
Can we all agree that the big winner of this episode was Littlefinger? As much as I want him to get his, this guy can play a bad ass game. He wouldn’t be a bad person for Sansa to have in her back pocket. Now I know we would all like her to outwit him, and this may come to pass eventually, for now it would only make sense for her to “play nice” in some respects. Sansa isn’t a fool but some mastermind of manipulation she isn’t. For her to beat him at his own game at this point would be too much of a stretch. His betrayal of Ned will be his undoing but in the meantime, she can learn a shitload of information from him. He uses others weakness as his strength. Maybe she will too?
Arthur,
Whoever will challenge is a fool! I’m with you, it was the best!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Oh no worries, not offended at all 🙂
Demon Monkey,
Their mistakes really aren’t worse than Neds or Robbs.
Ned and Robb haven’t been in the show for ages. Personally when I am gauging a character in the now I’m not thinking to compare them to Ned or Robb. It’s not a matter of who did worse. And we are allowed to be miffed by a character’s actions or mannerisms without being labled “haters” and any other divisive labels. Some people don’t understand that perceptions can be different and we nobody’s “wrong” for not liking someone you like. Unless it’s an evil bastard like Ramsay. I feel safe in openly judging a person who defends him as having a screw loose 🙂
I do think people have a problem with “traditionally” feminine female characters who are also complicated and human. Usually a female character has to be “like one of the guys” to be appreciated I think Yara, Arya and Brienne fall into that category. It’s a rather overused trope for female characters, alternatively there’s the one dimensional “bad-ass” female characters that people don’t mind as long as they don’t show any signs of weakness or y’know humanity. We don’t know much about Lyanna but so far she fits in the latter category. She’s so far been portrayed as uncomplicated “bad-ass” little girl. Sansa doesn’t fit any of those tropes and she has been victimized a lot on the show, and now she’s finally asserting herself, so I think it does play a part of why people are often unreasonable when it comes to how they view her actions.
Dire Moon Moon,
You seemed pretty offended.
That episode was phenomenal. It was everything I had hoped for and more!
I hope to have more cohesive and comprehensive thoughts ready for tomorrow. I’ll admit I haven’t read through all of the comments yet. But at least from what I’ve seen so far, the whining and moaning seems to be confined to the usual suspects. After last week, I’ll count that as a win.
Jack Bauer 24,
For the past several years, I’ve respected Myles’s opinions. But as I read that review, my face contorted into a sneer of such complete contempt that anyone who knows me would have found me unrecognizable. What utter garbage.
crimethink,
So then help me out here: What is appropriately useful strength, for Sansa or any woman, in your opinion?
Lyanna_Targaryen,
I love strong, ‘ballsy’ women. Of which there are many in the show. Like Karsi, for example. Sansa, being ignorant and self-centred, doesn’t meet that first definition in my books.
Kind of surprised at some of the controversy on here. I just got done watching, and I thought it was a masterful episode, start to finish.
I loved Meereen (for the first time in a long time). I enjoyed how Tyrion was able to temper Dany’s revenge-reflex. The “negotiation” with the masters was awesome TV, and was far more nuanced than just having dragons burn it all. It had a strong political element that will have longer term meaning.
I also cheered at the chemistry between Dany and Yara. Dany has had a few female friends along the way and it’s so great to see her become more human and relatable in those moments. We’ve seen hints in the past of how much she missed, sheltered the way she was. But those few women friends weren’t peers. Yara may have given her support to Dany, but she also maintained her independence. I think/hope that two of them are going to have some great scenes together in the future.
I think the Jon/Sansa dynamic is interesting and complex storytelling. Brothers and sisters are often competitive and at odds, especially ones who weren’t close as kids. They’re not friends, they’re family. Sansa wants to be seen as a grown up, but Jon still sees her as a little sister.
Sansa has been a pawn in the games of men for so long, she wants a voice. Of course she’s not good at making her voice heard yet, so there’s a level of petulance and frustration.
I also don’t think she betrayed Jon in any way with the Vale army. Sure she should have told him, but she didn’t know that they’d show up. If they didn’t, she’s the little girl who foolishly turned away an Army when they needed it most. Who wants a lecture from their brother over a bad decision? If they do show up, she did something good.
The battle: I thought it was epic. Didn’t love that Rickon died, but loved how they did it. What a quintessential Ramsay Bolton mind-f%@&. Finally Jon understood he’s a psycho (though in the moment let emotion understandably blind him). And there were at least three moments I thought Jon might die for realsies. The whole boxing the soldiers in was unexpected and heartwrenching.
I was sad Wunwun died, but so happy Tormund made it through. Don’t worry Tormund, Brienne should be back soon! Also relieved that Ramsay is now gone – in a fitting ending for him.
Loved Ser Davos every moment he was onscreen. Sincerely hope we see a lot more of Lyanna Mormont too.
Overall, I was riveted the entire time. Can’t believe the season finale is next week! Nooo!
Ok. agree to disagree.
kells,
Littlefinger’s not in anybody’s pocket. He’s had his eyes on Winterfell since last season’s chat with Cersei, and was willing to betray Sansa to get it then, so it’s hard to see how he wouldn’t be willing to betray her now. The only person in the Vale army who gives a crap about Sansa is Ned’s old friend Yohn Royce, who coincidentally has every motivation to get rid of Littlefinger too.
Jon also better find some allies who still have armies, and quick. Maybe with the Boltons defeated (though there may be more at Dreadfort) more northern houses will come out of the closet as being pro-Stark.
I have to admit my heart sank when Sansa didn’t say anything to Jon about the Vale. And then she arrived with them looking triumphant. I’ve come to accept that this is what the writers have chosen to do with these 2 characters. They’re not anywhere near each other in the book so I won’t be surprised if they get separated again (not necessarily to become enemies but maybe their stories will divert from each other from hereon?). I guess, they needed Sansa to go back to her book story line, which is with LF. So, expect her and LF in the same story line next season. I’m still holding out hope that Sansa will learn about LF’s hand in what happened to her family and that she’ll be the one to kill him. Anyway, Jon’s line in the preview “We need to trust each other”, do you guys think it’s a foreshadowing of what (who?) will come between them?
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Nar, first I’d have to give a shit about your opinion. Since I don’t, you can’t offend me.
I do wonder why you’d shit all over a show on a fan site, but I’m pretty sure it’s just your childish way of saying “hey I have an opinion too so notice me!”
You win, cupcake – you got noticed. You still don’t matter, but hey thst’s life when you’re trolling. Still, keep trying, you’re bound to impress someone sooner or later, you slap-happy crayon-eating mouth-breather 🙂
So per D&D, Dany is not her father, she’s not insane, and she’s not a sadist. Safe to say that shatters the mad queen theories.
I’m still processing Jon/Sansa. Did she or didn’t she know LF would show up? Why was she so sure Ramsey would die? Why did she roll up on the field with LF? And if she was sure, or close to it, why did she not tell Jon? You wanted him to wait but don’t tell him there’s potentially a large army coming to join in?
And again, Jon was the centerpiece in the fighting, but Winterfell arc overall felt like Sansa’s story yet again. Her revenge, not Jon’s.
Oh please. How has Sansa asserted herself? By begging men for help?
Your summary leaves out Daenerys of course, who fits the mold of a woman who was victimized and “girly” at the beginning, until she flicked a switch at the HOTUD and began asserting herself. You don’t see similar criticism of her because she is actually effective at what she does.
Comfort with brutality certainly isn’t part of it. Not that I blame her given what Ramsay did, but it sure as hell doesn’t make her strong. Joffrey liked looking at brutality too, was he strong?
Okay but did anyone noticed when Ramsey said something about hearing that Jon was the best swordsman (?) was he just bullshitting or do you think that was legit? I mean its obvious Ramsey did not want to fight Jon one on one but I do wonder if Jon has gotten a reputation for his swordsmanship.
I think her eyes are wide open when it comes to LF but it doesn’t mean she won’t play along that things are cool between them now. She doesn’t need to play the player, to be onto his game and to use it to her advantage. Littlefinger would sell out anybody, we all know that, but for now he might just be the best “ally” (used loosely) she has. She is one of the keys to the north and now that she is firmly planted back in WF, he will protect that. She may not know of his deals with Cersei but if she offers her hand in marriage, he isn’t going to let that opportunity pass.
As if pushing her Aunt out the moon-door wasn’t enough, I don’t think at this point Sansa realizes the lengths LF will go to to secure status and power for himself. I do think she will learn though. Just a certain conversation needs to be had with (
).
Calm down. I’m not going to devolve into a name calling fight with you, that would be childish. I don’t understand why you’re so upset though. It’s a fan site and I’m a huge fan of the show and that’s why I’m posting. I’ve given positive reviews to episode 3, 5, 6, and 7. I gave a moderate review to episode 1, and then rest I disliked strongly. Grow up, sometimes people have different opinions than you.
Lmao. Interestingly enough that you mention Dany because she gets just about the same level of hate as Sansa. I can’t take you seriously when you think “girly” is the antithesis of “strong.” Go debate someone else with these simple ass opinions.
Also I think LF will get his. I don’t think Sansa is done with him. (At least I hope!!)
Arthur,
LOTR!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
LonRice,
LOL, word. He couldn’t even answer my simple question: “What is appropriately useful strength, for Sansa or any woman, in your opinion?”
Nothing Sansa, or Yara, or Dany, or any female chracter does will ever be “right” for these people. Sad how mysoginists can’t just admit what they are.
I wasn’t commenting on whether “girly” is strong, just showing that Dany’s situation was much like Sansa’s at one point. I don’t see Dany getting near the level of hate as Sansa, and most of what she gets is not criticism of what she does, it’s just the fact that her storyline has become extremely stale in both the books and show.
And you haven’t answered whether Joffrey was strong because he enjoyed watching brutality.
People would pay ticket price money to see this episode.
That’s how high quality and epic it was IMO…
I always thought the fandom was too nitpicky but i was wrong. Theyre just dumb. Its a shame that the episode details got leaked on reddit months back,cos that lead to some unbelievable hindsight bias which made people think it was ‘predictable’. Also, Sansa sent a raven to LF after turning him down. There was no way in hell she wouldve possibly known he would show up at all, let alone on time.
Amazing episode, one of the best but im gonna wait till the regular trolls leave before getting into discussion *coughLatrineDiggerBriancough*
You know, sometimes GoT lets us down a little here and there (Episode 8 this season for me).
But when this show hits, it really freaking hits on a level so much higher then any other show.
So I started reading the posts here and sadly realized there’s this talk again about mysoginists vs. feminists. Where is this coming from? LOL. Anyway, we all have different tastes and we all like different characters. People do have the tendency to praise who they like and criticize who they don’t like. Unfortunately, sometimes people take things personally.
Syed Kabir,
It’s not nitpicking of the show. I think the show is trying to show that there’s a barrier between Sansa and Jon that’s going to blow up eventually.
She didn’t know whether Blackfish was going to show up either, but she told Jon about her sending a request to him.
You have to agree that Jon would have planned things differently if he’d known that there was even a chance that a huge army would show up to help them. People say “Sansa tried to make him wait and get more men” but she was talking about minor houses like the Cerwins, not enough to make a difference.
Che,
What about Bran? He’s a true Stark.
Concealing the Vale troops smells like Littlefinger to me, not Sansa. I can imagine him writing to her, “Thank you for giving me this chance to redeem myself. I have the perfect plan to lure the Bastard of Bolton out of Winterfell. But you will have to keep it a secret from your half-brother and his troops–it would be unreasonable to expect them to act as bait knowingly.”
You’re wrong.
Littlefinger’s initial plan was to swoop in after the Boltons / Stannis battle and wipe up the winner after that battle. No one expected Stannis to mess up so badly by sacrificing her daughter that half of his army left right there on the spot and the Boltons barely broke a sweat mopping up the remnants of Stannis’s army.
If Ramsay had not been a “mad dog” then Littlefinger’s plan to become the Warden of the North by using the Vale army to clean up the Boltons / Stannis battle would’ve failed utterly.
But because Ramsay was a mad dog, and couldn’t rein himself in enough to not repeatedly rape and beat Sansa Stark (whose name, as had repeatedly been stated, was needed for the Boltons to secure their hold on the North) …
Sansa escaped.
And because Sansa escaped, she was able to head to Castle Black, meet her half-brother (at least until next episode), and convince him to rally an army to retake Winterfell, and basically kickstart the plot for Season 6.
What would had happened if Ramsay Bolton had not acted like a mad dog? What if Ramsay was able to suppress his psychotic urges enough to be a decent husband to Sansa? To not repeatedly rape and beat her?
Sansa doesn’t escape. Sansa doesn’t head to Castle Black. Sansa doesn’t convince Jon Snow to raise an army. Sansa never meets up with Littlefinger. Sansa never sends that letter. There’s no Battle of Bastards. Littlefinger stews over his missed opportunity and has to be content with being Warden of the East and Lord of Harrenhall. And Ramsay doesn’t end up being fed to his own mad dog.
So yes, because Ramsay acted like a mad dog, he paid the price for it.
Didn’t you just say in the comment before this that Yara was accepted for being “one of the guys”? Your story stinks, but at least get it straight.
Oh yeah, and also Drogon.
This was the best dragon I have ever seen in movies, TV shows, whatever.
So A++ battle scenes and A++ Dragon/VFX….
Like I said, if this was a movie, people would pay ticket price money to just see this episode. I know I would. PLEASE come to IMAX next year lol…
I loved that scene between Tyrion and Dany where she’s basically like “Ok let’s go” (basically let’s go burn their cities to the ground) and Tyrion just looks at her like “wtf umm how about instead we don’t.” Idk but the look on his face made me laugh.
crimethink,
That was me who said that I believe. I think you’re mistaking lol.
I keep on seeing comments of this similar kind pop up in this thread.
No, Sansa did NOT send Jon’s army to get slaughtered.
Sansa had no idea the Vale army was even coming. Remember, she sent out for the Tully army, and got an emphatic “no” from her very own family.
Asking for the Vale army was a desperate gamble — one I do not think Sansa expected to be answered. And even if she told Jon Snow, the result would’ve been the same. Jon likely would’ve said “yeah, you said the same thing about Blackfish and the Tully army, what makes you think the Arryn army will be any different?”
I don’t like that Sansa withheld this from Jon Snow, but it would’ve not changed anything and Sansa knew that.
Littlefinger is Moat Cailin. *in this voice*
It’s 7:30 am in the uk and I got up early to watch. Whaaaaaaa!!!!! Fantastic episode. I had my heart in my mouth throughout the whole BOB. I’m off to read back here and get my head straight.
I hope everyone else enjoyed it. I’m breathing huge sighs of relief that Tormund and Davos made it. I seriously thought Tormund was a goner when he faced Smalljon Umber at one point.
Yep, it does look like something is going down at the Twins, no? They wouldn’t show a scene of the Freys celebrating unless something else was going to happen, I think.
Interesting to me that Jaime is there with the Lannister contingent…Hmmm.
This is one of the Top Ten episodes of the series for me, just like episodes 2 and 5 this season.
Loved the Tyrion/Danny scene! Judging from this and next episode preview, they really have their Queen/Hand of the Queen interaction down pat, no?
Finally I get where most of the CGI budget went this year…
So…Why did Sansa withheld the info about the Knights of the Vale? It’s not like Jon didn’t give her plenty of opportunities to come clean…So that she would get the credit for winning the Battle??? She really has grown closer to Littlefinger hasn’t she? At least subconsciously, even if she won’t admit it…From that little snippet of the scene in the Winterfell Godswood in the preview it doesn’t really look to me that she’s even contemplating yet getting rid of Littlefinger, at all.
They should seriously ask Sapochnick to direct the rest of the remaining GOT episodes…LOL
5/5
Oh, LOVED the shot of the White raven in the preview!
And…Why are Tyrion and Danny STILL on the damn Pyramid on episode 10?
Get to the damn ships already!!
Syed Kabir,
You’re a child. Everyone that disagrees with you is “dumb” ? Whatever. Yeah come back when I’m gone, I don’t want to make you feel bad or ruin the party.
I wonder if Drogon is the highest paid actor in TV series history lol…
I bet if you break down how much D&D spend on him and divide that amount into the amount of airtime he actually gets, it wouldn’t surprise me if he is the most expensive character in any TV show ever.
Wooow. This is becoming insanely ridiculous. People like some men and not others but if one dares to not like a woman, even if they like other women just not liking the one woman makes them woman-haters! Ugh. How old is the core group that spouts off this nonsense? I’m not trying to be argumentative but my dander has been raised I will admit it. I just want to understand where these people are coming from?! I could understand backlash if the people of this board were being sexist but they’re not. when everyone is listing the reasons behind their rationale there’s no need to label them something inflammatory.
Halfman,
A good way to start the day eh? 🙂 I thought that last head bash signaled the end of Tormund. So glad he survived albeit with a pretty damn severe headache I would gather.
Josh L,
Sansa had no idea the Vale army was even coming.
But how come she was so sure that Ramsay was going to die? She was pretty resolute when she told him that before galloping away. And why would the writers not have let us in on it? They have only showed her hold that information back and could have affirmed her “surprise” easily when the Vale army arrived on the scene but they didn’t. Was there an indicator I might have missed?
LonRice,
Tyrion finally got his mojo back yeah 🙂
Lady Snow,
Grey Worms dagger double tap.
Only the penitent man may pass.
Everyone who calls you out like the troll you are is a child, perfect lol. Its alright mate, youre right this show is fucking shit and D&D are terrible writers. Youre clearly a superior writer in every way. Btw, do you know that awesome forum called asoiaf.org? You should check them out! People over there areFAR smarter than the D&D asslickers over here! Also check out Preston Jacobs if you havent already, he is the most sensible and mature youtuber on the planet! No point wasting time here arguing with children like me! As you said, youre officially done with the show anyway right?
Oh thank goodness for you. I’ve been reading all this vitriol about Sansa not saying that the Vale soldiers might come and that she wasted lives. GEEEEZ how many did she save by taking the initiative – by at least trying to get some help? What if she had sat by meekly and done nothing? It would have been a wipe out, she would have killed herself rather than go back. Now she is probably going to have to marry LF. Maybe they should have kept Ramsay alive just a bit longer, she’d still be married and not an available widow.
All that being said, I thought the episode was fantastic. Loved the Meeren parts, all of them, they were exciting and moving and even humorous, in a macabre way. (Gray Worm taking out the Masters.) Tyrion is better when Dany is there – maybe that was the point of his drunken uselessness while she was gone.
Ah damn, though, RIP Rickon and Wun Wun. But the battle scenes were truly epic, and I
don’t usually like battle scenes. I watched every instant of these. The part with Jon in the mud battling for breath, for his life, was something I’d never seen before in quite the same way. You felt you were down there with him. The scenes when the Vale army rode in and broke through the Bolton lines were something I will remember forever, yes. So much, so many things, this is one I will watch over and over.
Youre overthinking it, she said it out of raw emotion.
Syed Kabir,
OK buddy, you’re lumping me in with a group of people that I don’t belong with. I’ve given positive reviews to 4 of the 9 episodes this season, and one moderate review to another one. You’re mad because I don’t agree with your opinion on the episode. Think of how silly that is. Either write out a well thought out response to me, or ignore my posts if they upset you (though I don’t see why they would). Calling names is a silly way of resolving the problem.
That very thought crossed my mind! Like maybe Jamie takes it upon himself to exact revenge on behalf of Catlyn. Jamie’s honor was insulted by both Blackfish and Edmure regarding his promise to Cat. Maybe he feels like he might earn some respect by avenging her.
Jamie was angry when Ned was blindsided during their fight in Kings Landing. When Tywin asked why he didn’t finish Ned while he was down, he told his father it wasn’t honorable. I think he really wants to fill the Kingsguard Little White Book with something to be proud of. Guest right is/was sacred, and maybe the Red Wedding, which was orchestrated by Tywin, is an embarrassment to Jamie. So why not orchestrate a little pay back?
^This
Some person on this site, just a few days ago, “speculated”, scene by scene, Ramsay asking Rickon “do you like games little man”, then Ramsay telling Rickon to run to Jon, and then Ramsay shooting arrows at him, and then Ramsay killing him. I’m like, who would even think of that scenario out of the blue? That was clearly a spoiler that they read somewhere else, and then passed off as their own brilliant idea, without spoiler code. I’m like, do you honestly think that we are going to pat you on the back Sunday night if you are correct, or do you think you’ll get a cookie for being correct? I was pretty furious that I had this ruined. I knew the minute I read it that it must be what really happens because it was just too specific. No way to piece that together from previews and trailers. Not mentioning any names, but to the person that “speculated” this, you know who you are, please don’t do this again. You ruined this scene for me tonight.
Exactly. Jon, after he resurrects in the books WILL attack Winterfell and the Boltons with the Wildlings and whatever remains of the Northern armies after Stannis loses and dies (and yep, that’s happening in the books too.)
Heck, for all I know, by the time Jon finishes running around inside Ghost in the book and Mel puts back his soul in his body and Stannis’ attack of Winterfell ends up in failure, enough time would have passed for Sansa, Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale to maybe even go North and participate in the battle just as shown ( except that maybe in the book the first Jon/Sansa meeting would happen after this battle, not at the Wall like in the show…)
It’s bizarre that supporting Sansa lying to someone who is clearly on her side = pro- strong women. WTF? So you have to support lying and manipulation in order to respect a character. And saying from start to finish she made the wrong choice to lie to Jon means you hate women? What the hell.
Again, watch the scene. Over and over Jon says “you’re right, tell me what to do differently.” And she just REFUSES to give him another plan, refuses to give him even a piece of information that might change his plan.
Is Sansa so one dimensional of a character that in the midst of an impeding battle where thousands will die all she cares about is controlling information? Because that’s essentially what people are saying when they talk about her agency and control.
For fuck’s sake why are people talking about agency as entailing lying about a potential army before a massive battle!?!? That is about the worst asserting of agency you could cook up, and so needless. It’s clearly been done on the show so she and she alone is responsible for the victory, but to me it feels like character assassination along the way.
There once was a movie called Braveheart
Which battles were thought to be so smart
What they failed to see
And the rest of humanity
Was that Jon Snow would tear it apart…
Nadia,
Where are these people when Cersei is involved?
I guess it applies only to select characters.
Davos finding Shireen’s stag in the ashes, that was the most heartbreaking moment of the whole series for me.
When we see the sun rise behind him (beautiful shot, btw) and hear the drums calling the battle, it got worse.
After, he’s all walking around with this far-off stony stare, it is a much darker side of Davos. It was too much.
I feel like this hit me harder than Holdthedoor.
On a weirder note, I am hella worried about Cersei next week. I know she’s practically a Bond villain at this point, what with her pet henchman and mad scientist and weapons of mass destruction and secret lair, but if she loses the game, I’m pretty sure she is taking everyone else out with her.
Josh L,
The thing is that she showed up at the head of that army, so she probably went ahead to meet them. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense for her to be at the battlefield instead of somewhere safe.
I hope the show answers this.
George,
That’s what i suspect
It also occurred to me that seeing Rickon shot is equivalent of fArya in PL
Eg afterward Jon decides on a headlong charge at Ramsay on behalf of sibling and he gets killed by NW, and he effectively ran headlong ro his death here
So this may affect him in both books and show, eg a lesson of caution vs NK?
Secondly, he’s been afraid of death and fighting since resurrection, so him charging kike that perhaps sognifies he’s overcome it
Look pn Mels face as Stark banners went up was a look of old too, so both may have overcome their issues, though Mel has to face the music with Davos
Will be interesting to see next episode
LonRice,
I was confused as well. It’s not like Jon interacted with people south of the Wall. He was probably bullshitting, though show Jon is a good swordsman (thanks Pompeii).
The difference is that LF actually offered to help her out with the Vale army, face to face, something which the BF never did. We definitely don’t know that things would not have changed if Sansa had told this to Jon.
Lady Snow,
This was outstanding ! It belongs in a Blockbuster movie; TV is not worthy of it! 😉
I do not completely agree.
Telling Jon about the Vale would have, in my opinion, no impact on his tactic. She does not seem to know if or when they might truly arrive (I am of the mind that her “you will die tomorrow, Lord Bolton” is trashtalk : project confidence and leave, hoping it will destabilize him a bit).
Jon has to devise a strategy with what he has, not what he hopes he could have, maybe, at some point in the unspecified future.
You are absolutely right to say that Sansa does not gve him anything “specific” in terms of tactic. As a matter of fact, she willingly admits she is completely out of her depth when it comes to military plans.
However she gives him something crucial : “do not do what Ramsay wants you to do”.
Jon scoffs at that, somewhat understandably. To him, it is obvious. And vague. To a certain extent, it is.
Yet Sansa knows it is anything but. She understands Ramsay will do everything (what exactly, she obviously cannot guess) to provoke Jon. And she also understands that not rising to whatever bait he will use will be the single hardest thing Jon will have to do, something Jon himself does not fully grasp.
He says the words, finds the notion painfully obvious but he does not quite get it because he does not recognise the depth of Ramsay’s depravity.
And, in the end, it was true. He rushed to Rickon and Ramsay’s plan worked. Because there is a difference between intellectually knowing something and believing it with your guts. In spite of Sansa’s warning, he could not bring himself to believe Rickon was a lost cause. So he took the bait.
Neither he nor Sansa is a villain or an idiot. They both (understandably) failed a bit : Sansa failed to recognise Jon is one of the few people on Earth she can trust; Jon failed to recognise the exact depth of his sister’s words and understanding.
They will have to talk about it.
can the red woman bring back little rickon
That was….. AMAZING!
What an episode! Great from start to finish. And the most satisfying ending to an episode of the entire series.
I am eagerly awaiting the opening sequence next week to see the Stark sigil back on Winterfell again.
Same here
Stark sigil and not a burning heap!
Interesting that Riverrun is kept included, Walder Frey must come down or something, ppl have mentioned the Hall looks smaller and different to the Twins
Nadia,
You are real poison! Of the 1000 comments one tenth is yours blabing about how awful this episode was. Get a life!
Hi Ygritte. Yes a bloody fab way to start the day! ?? They had me shouting Nooooooo at the tv at that point. Hugely relieved about Tormund!!
Wow, massive debate here over Sansa. Hey ho, I watch this show because I love the story and its characters and I felt this was a top class episode and brilliantly done by all of team GOT. Loved ALL of it. No complaints whatsoever from me.
Amazing episode! From Meereen to Winterfell, everything was awesome. What a blockbuster!!
I need to rewatch it!
Did it ever to some of you bitching about those bitching about “plot holes” that you are the only ones mentioning “plot holes”? Seriously. If you search the entirety of the thread on “plot holes,” you’ll find reference to your little friend who started accusing those showing no love for Sansa as thinking that was bad writing and those referring back to that, and that’s it. No one is saying “plot holes” but you guys. We are saying that we are disappointed with Sansa, not D&D. We are mad at Sansa, not D&D.
After Micah, I hated Sansa almost as much as Arya because I had a cousin much like Sansa growing up who thought she was better than the rest of the entire world. But I never thought my dislike of Sansa was bad writing. Admittedly, I’m perplexed by those who love her so, but in the real world, there are those who love my bitch cousin. Not many, but some. So Sansa is well written and realistic.
Aryamad,
IM HERE
RAMSAY IS GONE YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND BY HIS OWN WEAPON BAHAHHAH
IMO Sansa betrayed Jon and team the moment she lied to them about the knowledge she acquired about the Blackfish. She played directly off the “half brother”, “you may need an army of your own” deception LF gave her, instead of having the Vale be an option for them from the get go. So I can’t buy into the argument that she didnt know if they would show up after sending her late request. Until that initial betrayal, I was hyped for her to get revenge for all her suffering and become Queen of the North. Although he has earned it, don’t think Jon ever wanted to be a king so the deception was not even necessary. Time after time we’ve been shown Jon is more interested in the big picture, and saving humanity than stroking his own ego. Doing the right thing, no matter the cost to himself, is why I have grown to love Jon. Based on the writing of her character, I personally saw the Sansa choices as being totally selfish from the get go, instead of strategic.
A woman myself, I love to see strong woman portrayed, but not if it has to be based on female manipulation/treachery.
While I enjoyed seeing her strength in final dialogue with Ramsey (even though she wasnt there when he told them he had been starving his hounds), and not turning away as the hounds attacked, I hated what the little smile in last scene also indicated about her dark soul. Tired of all the self centered rulers. I truelly hope her heart is more heroic than that in the end, and she eventually starts to work towards the good of all. DB saying it was his favorite shot in the episode recap doesn’t give me much hope for that though.
Tommen will burn, and that will kill Cersei. First metaphorically and then literally.
Dee Stark,
Isn’t this episode amazing?!!!! I had a few “complaints” but the amazingness of the episode outweighs those nitpicky stuff. 🙂 Ramsay’s death was so satisfying. I actually wouldn’t have had any problem had Jon finished him off with 1,000 punches instead of just 21. 🙂
But why ?
First, I would like to make clear it is not at all my intention to “correct” anyone’s impressions of this or that character : there is no “right” or “wrong” way to appreciate them and whatever feeling they evoke in each viewer is justified in its own way.
I am merely trying to understand this “entrenchment” so to speak, this need to make either Jon or Sansa (depending on which side of the fence one positions oneself) seem “worse” than the other.
I can see why some viewers would be frustrated with Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale’s hypothetical involvement. Though I do not believe such piece of information would have provided Jon with any extra tactical advantage (the possibility of backup is not the same as the certainty of it, you cannot rely on it for strategic purposes), I can grasp why it would seem like a big mistake on her part.
But then, what to think about Jon’s decision to charge, on his own, to get Rickon ? How is that not a blunder of the exact same proportion as Sansa’s ? They had a chance to win this (without any involvement from the Vale) if they waited Ramsay out, if Bolton charged first. However Jon did not abide by his own command, did not (really) listen to Sansa when she said he would have to fight every urge to respond to Ramsay’s provocation and went at it alone, thereby forcing his troops to engage when they were not equiped to do so.
I find it hard to establish some sort of “gradation” between the two, to decide that one is a “bitch” while the other is merely “a little naive” or that she is “amazeballs” while he is a “moron”. They both, under duress, made questionable choices which, I believe, can be understood and explained by their circumstances.
I’m sure Jon would have loved to use the Wildlings as an auxiliary unit! But who would be his main unit? The 62 Bears? The 200 Hornwoods? The 143 Mazins? If you only have 400 other men to 2000 Wildlings, the Wildlings have to be part of the main force. The Manderlys haven’t shown up yet. We would have noticed their arrival.
KG,
It has nothing to do with gender. If you replaced Sansa with another Stark, say Bran, and he did the same thing to Jon, people would be just as angry about it. It’s the character’s actions, not gender, that people are criticizing. You keep bring up sexism when it has nothing to do with it.
If we do get a bloodbath at the Twins, I wonder if we won’t see any hint of Arya until the walls are red again. And then she’ll pull off her face. That would be cool.
Dorian,
Did I not also say that the characters make big mistakes? I never said Sansa was perfect. She didn’t WANT to have to involve Littlefinger. She never wanted to have him help her again in any capacity because that means she’d owe him something so she made a decision that in hindsight wasn’t the right one (I have also been in this predicament with a man).
She tried to reject him outright, because she believed at the time that Jon and Co could rally enough Northern troops to their cause. When they spoke to Lyanna and Glover and the others on the Tour of the North, she got a nice big dose of reality about how the Northerners feel about the Starks NOW (versus how they felt pre-Ned dying and pre-Wo5K and RW). So she wrote to LF, hoping he would make it in time. And he did. But at what cost to Sansa? I want to know LF’s reward.
I know you all think I’m probably just a silly bitching woman, but if I don’t at least stand up to the barrage of shit that so many throw at Sansa, the only character I even remotely relate to in my own life (naive girl to kept girl to battered woman to empowered woman), than I’m no better than the doormat outside my front steps.
I find Iwan by far the most attractive man on the show, which is disturbing on so many levels. At the parlay, I was like, ooo, Ramsay, your eyes are so blue today!
Ahhh… This is my dream season finale.
Arya: The Starks send their regards.
Woohoo! Red Wedding revenge, complete!
^ This. I kinda hope we don’t see the ‘sexism’ debate around here anymore. But it probably won’t happen.
I read that! It was certainly wise to think about other battles that may have been relevant because that’s what D&D did. They combed through accounts of real battles as well as watching a lot of filmed battles.
Well, Winterfell wasn’t sacked this time. When that Bolton banner was brought down and replaced with the Stark banner, I was literally jumping up and down and trying hard not to scream out loud and waking up the neighbours.
imjustsayin,
This. Clear and concise imo.
Yep, been waiting for that for soooooo long
Of course it was also rather bittersweet as straight after Rickon is brought past, so every ‘good’ development has its twist,
Eg Wun Wun dying too, I figured he’d be around to get warged by Bran but guess that Snow Winterfell Giant Dolls head was indeed a form of foreshadowing
Fascinating how the show can have us cheering for Grenn but then later on for Wun Wun in similar situations
Everything said in the official article is exactly what happened except that Baelish wasn’t in the courtyard. However, Baelish was at the battle and so he may have been unofficially hanging around the set in the courtyard scene.
Wun Wun tried and did force his way in. Ramsay, Jon, Wun Wun, and eventually Sansa were all there. They have the sequences out of order but that’s probably because they filmed out of sequence.
Halfman,
No complaints here either! You can tell how much effort went into this piece of filming and all I know is it had me enthralled, and yeah the good guys won and Ramsay fills the belly of his beasts. All is well right now 🙂
This, so much this!
You mean the end of Episode 7 of Season 8, right?
Sam,
I agree 🙂
Just amazing!
But I am happy he stopped when he saw Sansa.
I just love him.
ok after seeing that episode i serioulsy hope jon and sansa will split up….the sansa fans call it “boss ass bitch” i only see that the heir of winterfell die an jon have even lesser men to fight the WW…i saw man who won a battle but lost a brother i saw a girl who have a smirk on her face because she take the advantage….i saw man who mourn his brother his brother and where to bury him… while his sister was more focus on “where is ramsay….i can easily smell a betrayal of sansa she will marry baelish and the dude will have the north,harrenhall and the vale… and this ep also show me how stupid i was to bash dany or scene…..dany is ruthless but don’t sacrifise her own men and siblings…
Dee Stark,
Yeah, he was like, “Oh yeah, sis, I almost forgot. He’s all yours.” Well, at least that’s what I imagined he wanted to tell her.
And I keep seeing comments similar to yours, Josh. Littlefinger told Sansa that he went to the Vale and raised an army and that he brought that army all the way north just for her. He is begging, begging, begging to do anything for her forgiveness. What part of that should make Sansa think he’d reject her if she asked?
https://youtu.be/qA0ye5Xh-cI?t=34s
Though it is true that we can never be sure we can take Littlefinger at his word, we already have his promise that he’d do anything, anything, anything to help Sansa if only she asked. And so that is every bit as good as if he’d written her back saying he was on his way.
Dee Stark,
Sam,
Loved that moment as well!
No way! I never noticed either! I’ll have to check it out next time.
I just have to say, Kit’s acting in this episode is superb. Same praise goes to Iwan (though I so hate Ramsay!).
That may have been me. I have not seen any spoilers other than the books, the articles on this website, and a tiny bit of spoiler-based speculation I stumbled across in the forums, where I (stupidly, on my part) didn’t realize I would get spoiled. But that spoiler was completely unrelated to Rickon.
It seemed natural that Ramsay would keep Rickon alive to taunt Jon, and we had the line of, “Do you like games, Little Man?” from the trailer that everyone knew was Ramsay talking to Rickon. I thought that the best way in the world to taunt Jon and scare the crap out of everyone would be to have him run to Jon while being chased by arrows.
I enjoy speculating for the sake of speculating, which is a big part of why I come here. I love reading the well-reasoned theories of others, which makes up 30 to 50% of the comments I read, if not more. The spoiler code is for book or media spoilers that you know will likely influence what happens on the show. Only new posters cover speculation based on ideas broadly discussed throughout the comments.
Lady Snow,
Had you been a regular in this site you would have known that this very “speculation” was reported way back in October and it came from a reddit comment if I remember well. So no news and no drama in it.
Sansa saw and heard Littlefinger make what seemed like a very heartfelt love declaration to her aunt, a declaration Lysa believed entirely (remember her smile), only to push her down the Moon Door after revealing he never cared for her…
What makes his declaration of remorse so different that Sansa should be able to tell that he truly is sincere this time around ?
There is no trusting Baelish. He even says so himself : “trust no one”. His promises are worth nothing on their own.
He says he did not know about the Boltons and wants to make amends ? We know it to be true because the producers and writers said it was so but Sansa has no access to such meta-information so, to her, there is still ample room for doubt.
He says the soldiers of the Vale are waiting ? Until they actually show up, why believe him ?
Our best bet assumption, I believe, is that Sansa called for Baelish’s troops without any way of knowing whether they would truly be there. And if so, when or how.
Could she still have mentioned it to Jon ? Of course.
Would it have altered his game plan ? I am far from convinced. Without certainty or specific information, a “maybe” army is as good as none. And Jon wanted to act fast because 1) he thought they had a chance to save Rickon and 2) the weather was about to become a problem.
Would the casualties for Jon’s troops have been much less severe had the battle started a few hours later, with the Vale in force ? It certainly seems like it.
Would the casualties for Jon’s troopshave been much less severe had he stuck to his plan of staying put and waiting for Ramsay to engaging ? It certainly seems like it.
If we are assigning blame for the many deaths suffered by Jon’s side to anything else than war in general and Ramsey’s army in particular, I am afraid we are going to have to split it evenly between Jon and Sansa.
George,
Late, sorry, but yeaaah i think that was foreshadowing, and may there be sweet, sweet Frey/Lannister comeuppance our way!
Ginevra,
I totally agree with this.
Dee Stark,
WOOHOO!! >o< I can't wait to watch it again.
I bet those dogs are the sweetest things IRL… Hope they post some behind the scenes footage with them. 🙂
Cameryn,
Exactly – my thoughts also. No idea why there’s been so much ‘Sansa Bashing’ on this thread. That she kept the secret of contacting Littlefinger from JS which caused the deaths of thousands of those fighting for Jon’s cause to retake Winterfell.
Sansa sent that message to Littlefinger via a raven asking for help not knowing if it would reach him in time before the battle for Winterfell. No internet or smart-phones in those times LOL 😀
We knew from a previous episode that Littlefinger had gained the support of Robin Arran to use the Knights of the Vale to join in the battle against the Boltons. So it was inevitable they would take part. However, Sansa was correct in keeping that quiet and not telling JS?
Is it not better to fight the battle with the forces you have available and to the best of their ability rather than hoping/relying that reinforcements will arrive at the 11th hour to save the day?
Which of course being GoT – THEY DID 🙂
Well, my DH watched the episode this morning and loved it. Made one comment tho. Said that Jon was stupid. He was told Ramsey plays games. He let his emotions get to him and ditched the plan they had, and got people killed because if it. He doesn’t read these comments and doesn’t know the big deal about Sansa. What I’d suggest is that both Jon and Sansa made mistakes that caused people to die. So can we just drop this pls? It was a great episode and I am so excited for next week!
Ginevra,
Wow, that was amazing! Didn’t know that calvary charge was real! Very interesting to hear what the directors had to say about Jon letting his emotions get to him and falling in to Ramsey’s trap. Need to watch it again, now that I know how this was made..
Ginevra,
Everything said in the official article is exactly what happened except that Baelish wasn’t in the courtyard.
yes, he was in the courtyard .. go back and review the overhead (bird’s eye view) ..
Clearly he is standing to the left of the screen behind Jon Snow with Sansa standing to Jon Snow’s left .. he’s in his blue cape..
ACME,
Yes, this.
Thank you for clarifying your true intentions. Let me clarify mine. If I’ve referred to Sansa as a bitch, it was probably in reference to the “boss ass bitch” blurb that Sophie had promised us for Sansa. I don’t think of her as a true villain or bitch at all, even if I might consider some of her actions to be bitch-like but only because I measure them against the Stark stick. Measuring against a Lannister stick, she’s such a sweet girl, truly.
Why do I feel the need to defend Jon in lieu of Sansa? I didn’t feel that way, until Sansa tried to make Jon feel inferior. That just pushes all of my buttons and makes me want to leap to defend Jon. I hate it when anyone tries to make someone else feel inferior, especially when it is someone I adore.
I will note that Sansa was completely correct in her advice to Jon about not trusting Ramsay and doing the opposite of what he wanted him to do. That was truly sage advice. I wish she’d given it without facetiousness and blame.
I’m also goaded by this look of what appears to be smirking, sneering superiority and dismissal. If Sansa was directing that superiority toward her abuser Ramsay, I’d be cheering, but the clip makes it seem like she’s directing it toward Jon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1YiyKyY0-Q
Jon’s charging was a blunder every bit as costly as Sansa’s. The difference is that Jon’s blunder came from love. We rarely blame those whose motivations are the purest possible.
Even Littlefinger has kept 50% of his promises at the very least. If he didn’t, he might as well be Ilyn Payne with no tongue. Even a 50% chance that thousands upon thousands of soldiers were on their way from Moat Cailin would have been enough, by far, to motivate Jon to wait, especially if Sansa had shared with him earlier that there was no hope for Rickon, despite having used that to motivate Jon to take up arms in the first place.
The reason Jon wouldn’t wait for other houses, as Sansa suggested, is because the other houses were as small as the ones they already had, with at most 200 men. But 200 versus 3000 to 10,000 men, which all of the Vale would likely have, is an entirely different story. An additional 3000 to 10,000 men can clearly turn the entire tide of the battle well into their favor.
I was definitely an Arya when I was young, at least in spirit. I can relate to her so well, which is how I fell in love with the series. You remind me of Arya so much, too, and not just the avatar and name.
I know, right! That charge was by far my favorite part: the anticipation, the holy shit-ness, and then the epic surprise of the clash from behind, which neither the audience nor Jon were suspecting, I presume. Wow! Wow, wow, wow!
Here’s another one, the official “Inside the Episode” one, and this one might talk more about the battles, too. They are both awesome.
My theory is that Jon Snow and Meera, the girl traveling with Bran, are twins.
Not only do they have similar appearances with their long black curly hair, and great fighting/survival skills, but there is a more definitive reason why this is true.
In Bran’s vision of when his father and his men fought the best swordsmen ever, the swordsmen killed everyone except Ned Stark and another man, Howland Reed. It is a valid prediction that in the tower that Ned Stark began climbing after the battle was done, was Liana Stark giving birth.
Also, Liana and Rhaegar Targaryen are rumored to be the parents of Jon Snow. Liana was taken by the Targaryens for roughly 10 months, more than enough time to get pregnant and give birth, and died, presumably in child birth.
Ned Stark was a character that was just pure good, he never backstabbed anyone or did anything that was dishonorable. Having a bastard child is not a good thing and that would bring Ned Stark out of character, more reason why Jon Snow is not Ned’s child.
So in Bran’s vision Ned Stark was climbing the stairs into the tower where Liana was giving birth, but Howland Reed was still alive too. So they each went into the tower, and because Liana would have died from child birth, they would not want to leave the children for dead, so they each took one. Jon Snow went with Ned Stark, and Meera went with Howland Reed.
Thanks. I almost added that he might be there, since Sansa was there and he was with Sansa earlier, but I hated to say without seeing him.
dvc,
I gather your assumptions are based upon the real-world historical accounts of dragons flying into battle. I’m sure by that reasoning the archaeological evidence shows that dragons were incapable of dodging such aerial assaults. But hypothetically speaking, if this was based in the world of fantasy would it be safe to surmise that the dragons possessed the intelligence to fend off those attacks and the troops were in shock/awe of creatures that they had never seen before? Just wondering… Btw silly rabbit, just let us kids enjoy our trix.
First off, thank you for your kind reply. It is truly interesting
I see what you mean. It is true that Sansa’s reaction may seem disproportionate to what we can understand of Jon’s behaviour.
However, I believe we must not forget that these two characters know each other less well than we know them, paradoxically. They were not close before they separated and have not heard of or seen each other in the five most formative years of their lives.
From what we know about Jon, I believe that, when he looks at Sansa, he sees 1) his little sister who, as a big brother, he must protect (or the ghost of their father will do unmentionable things to him ^^), and 2) the victim of horrific abuse he does not wish to traumatise any further.
Therefore, he keeps her at bay, so to speak. He does not truly include her in the discussions relating to Ramsay and his strategy towards him. He does not ask for her opinion, I assume, out of a sense of respect (let’s not talk about the monster in front of his main victim).
What he fails to recognise is that Sansa can no longer tolerate such exclusion. For the last five years, people have made decisions for her, have treated her as an object (a hostage, then a plaything, then an asset, then a plaything again). And all it has brought her is misery and pain. The only people with whom she formed any semblance of bonds are those who addressed her as a person with thoughts, intelligence, opinions : the Hound (strangely), Tyrion, Littlefinger (at times).
Jon wants to fight for her while she wants to fight alongside him (in her own way, not with a sword but with advice and strategy). As an equal. She tells him as much, I believe, when she states ‘”you cannot protect me”. She does not want to be protected; she wants to be listened to, especially here, on a subject she is the only one to know.
I have no doubt Jon’s intentions are made of solid gold but there is saying about good intentions and hell…
Though it has to be noted that, after Sansa confronted him about not asking for her views, he went to Melisandre and asked for hers. I interpreted it as him realising that even the people who do not fight in battles can have sound judgments about them. He is learning, as they all are.
The editing of that bit is indeed strange. But, in my opinion, both siblings are not looking at each other, they are looking at the same object, namely the Vale troops. Sansa looks on with deep satisfaction because she knows it means victory at last; Jon stares incredulously at a Hail Mary he did not think was possible.
Though any interpretation is valid, considering the editing which is, again, a bit “off”.
I can only agree with you on this.
Nevertheless, I would argue that Sansa is also acting out of love. She wants Jon to succeed, to survive this battle. She wants it to go as well as a battle can go. And she knows the only way that can be achieved is if he does not fall into Ramsay’s traps, if he listens to her, if he stops thinking of this as a rescue mission (for Rickon is beyond saving, no matter how tragic that may be) and realises it is a full-blown war where ruthlessness will be the only rule.
In my opinion it’s interesting. Sansa is learning to be a true politician. As a wise man once said “Bakers have flour, fishermen have nets, and leaders have lies. That’s just the way of the world.”
Ginevra,
Aw I love Arya! I was similar to her as a kid also. S01 cheeky Arya, not really S06 assassin Arya of course lol Just a tomboy that would be up to silly shenanigans, not wanting to be a little lady, always annoying my big sister. Ah good times. XD Thanks for that comment! That made me smile.
ACME,
If Sansa is not fighting alongside Jon with sword, explain how that is "equal". Furthermore, when Jon asked her, point-blank, what he should do, she had not answer! All Sansa could say is that Ramsey is a bad guy, and you shouldn't do what he wants and you don't know him like I do – basically, what you would say about virtually every battle opponent.
First, “you cannot protect me” doesn’t mean I don’t want to be protected. It means I would like to be protected, but you can’t protect me. What is that subject that she’s uniquely qualified on, exactly?
Again, when Jon asked her what he should do….*crickets*
And what “sound judgments” did Sansa have about this battle? She specifically said she didn’t know anything about battles.
…I saw what you did there…trying to make Sansa and Jon equivalents.. They are not!
Ginevra,
…and I quote: “A monster has taken our home and our brother. We have to go back
to Winterfell and save them both! – Sansa Bolton
That was episode 4! Of course, Jon didn’t want to go to war, not even to save Rickon, because he knows Winterfell is an ubreachable fortress.
By the way…did Sansa even give Rickon a second glance?
All she wants is that castle, but it’s going to be taken from her in the end…everything she wants will be stripped from her because of her callousness and selfishness.
Ginevra,
Ginevra, you killing it!… Er, I mean kilting it. However…:
Not trusting an enemy is obvious. So obvious, in fact, that Sansa herself failed to NOT trust Littlefinger, her enemy.
With tremendous pleasure.
“Equal” means “of same value”, not “identical” which means “of same nature”.
A battle is won as much during its preparation as it is on the field. And part of the preparation is trying to understand your adversary as much as possible. When you have, on your side, someone who has lived with them, it may come in handy.
If I remember correctly, she said much more than that. She said that Rickon’s death was now most likely a foregone conclusion and that one of Ramsay’s favourite tricks was to “hurt” people.
It cuts much deeper than “don’t do what he wants” : it says that Ramsay will very probably try to use Jon’s most sincere and profound feelings to force his hand, to break whatever strategy he might have and that the only way not to be beaten by Bolton is to resist any emotional urge he may try to evoke.
So, had Jon truly absorbed those words, when Ramsay released Rickon on the field, Snow would have stuck to his guns and not moved (he may have shouted at his brother to run in serpentine, though. I am shocked nobody did). Horrid, yes. But strategically potent.
Not really.
When fighting White Walkers, you do not brace yourself for cruelty and psychological torture. You pack up the Valyrian steel and the dragonglass.
When fighting Daenerys, you do not prepare for mindgames and children being murdered for strategical advantage. You stock up on fire-retardant materials and ear plugs for the speeches (I kid because I love).
Each opponent has his/her particularities and someone who has experienced the worst of them may be useful… Like with Grey Worm and Tyrion : contrarily to Lannister, Grey Worm knows the Slave Masters intimately; he could tell they would no abide by the treaty.
See above.
See above.
See above.
I do not believe you had. Hopefully, this will enlighten you further.
I dont think Sansa wanted Jon to live to be frank about it. Also of all the Starks she seems the most selfish and the most uncaring
ACME,
Sansa couldn’t even show remorse for her dead brother Rickon or even hey Jon i am glad you survived just tell me where Ramsey is. Sansa is so cold and heartless of all the Starks i wish that character would go the way of the dodo bird. All she wants is Power
With tremendous pleasure.
“Equal” means “of same value”, contrarily to “identical” which means “of same nature”.
A battle is won as much during its preparation as it is on the field. Both are equally important. Part of the preparation is getting to know who one’s adversary is to figure out what their next move might be.
In such a case, having on your side someone who lived with the adversary and saw the worst of them is remarkably useful. As useful as 62 Mormonts, at the very least.
If I remember correctly, and I am almost certain I do, what Sansa told Jon went further than that. She told him she had concluded Rickon’s death was a foregone conclusion and that one of Ramsay’s favourite trick was to “hurt” people. Not maim, not kill : “hurt”.
It cuts much deeper than “don’t do what he wants you to” : it says that Bolton will use any means necessary to mobilise Jon’s emotions against him; that he will force his hand by manipulating any visceral urge he might manage to evoke. And that the only way not to fall into the Ramsay nightmare and maintain one’s strategy is to fight against one’s own natural emotional response, no matter what.
So no, she did not tell him specifically “if he starts shooting arrows at our brother, do not go, it is trap”. She did not precisely predict the type of abyss Ramsay’s depravity would crawl into.
However, had Jon truly absorbed the horror of those recommendations, when Ramsay released Rickon onto the field and started shooting arrows at him, Snow would have stuck to his guns and not moved (he might have shouted at his brother to run in serpentine, though. I am shocked nobody did). Horrid, yes. But strategically potent.
Not quite.
When fighting against White Walkers, you do not brace yourself for psychological warfare and cruelty. You pack up the Valyrian steel and the dragonglass.
When fighting against Daenerys, you do not prepare for mindgames and children being murdered for strategical purposes. You stock up on the fire retardant material and the ear plugs for the speeches (I kid because I love).
Know thy enemy… Like with Tyrion and Grey Worm. Contrarily to Lannister, Grey Worm knows the slave masters intimately. That is why he was able to predict they would not abide by the terms of the treaty.
So obvious that Jon forgot to follow.
I wonder what Jon’s men would have thought of their commander if he just let Rickon be shot on the field without trying to save him? Yes, it was a trap, but Rickon Stark was, as far as they knew, their true lord. I’m not sure Jon had a choice.
Ginevra,
Thank you for your reply. It actually wasn’t you, and by the way, I enjoy your comments on this site. The person who I was referring too included all the specifics. Someone else on this site called that person out immediately saying that their speculation was exactly what was on Reddit, almost word for word, and actually told them they needed to cover their filming spoilers. I’m new here and all for speculation and theory which I very much enjoy. I just really don’t want to know filming spoilers and appreciate how this site encourages spoiler code for filming spoilers as well as book spoilers. I’ve read the books so I don’t mind those, but I personally don’t want to know leaks from the filming sets. I want to experience that element of surprise that I’ve not had the luxury to enjoy up until last season. It’s nice to experience the shock and twists of the story for a change! I honestly thought that they would taunt them with Rickon, but I would have never guessed Ramsay would have sent him running across the field.
As I mentioned to Genevra, I’m new here, and I like how the site warns of filming spoilers, in addition to putting the news and images “under the cut.” That way we don’t get spoiled unless we choose to read the article and participate in the conversation. I just wanted to kindly remind others to remember to cover their filming spoilers, especially in a post that specifically asks for filming spoilers to be coded. I can see how folks can inadvertently come up with correct speculation just by participating in forums and discussion. In this particular case, this person had clearly described the entire scene perfectly down to every little detail. If that was based on reading the filming spoilers here months ago, they could have covered that up for us new participants.
That said, I very much enjoy this site and find most participants to be courteous, mature, and intelligent. I appreciate varying opinions and polite debate.
ACME,
Of course she wants him to succeed, but let me ask, how do you know she’s acting out of love? Is she a particularly loving person? Remind me where she’s shown true unselfish love because I can’t recall. (besides romantic love ie Loras) She tells Jon they have to save Rickon and then the eve before battle admits he’s beyond saving. At CB strategy meeting she’s cocky with Davos and assured the men they’ll have no trouble getting houses to commit, then when they attempt and it fails she has nerve to yell at Jon about it (Not enough men!) when at this point they are stuck between rock and hard place and have to make their move. She tells Brienne “Jon’s my brother, I trust him, he’ll protect me” and then her action shows she doesn’t really trust him and when Jon makes promise in the tent that he’ll protect her she spits back “No one can protect anyone.” I realize she’s still young and will make mistakes, but for me her attitude about a lot of things leaves much to be desired.
I think those visions that were given to Dany in the HOTU the burnt throne room with snow falling which she dared not touch then her walking past the wall out to see Drogo and Rhagal (remember Drogo says they are both waiting for her in suspended afterlife ) must mean that by the time she gets to Westeros Kings Landing will already be wiped out and the long night is upon her going through the wall was foreshadowing her enemy may be like how Drogo is ( dead yet not dead so something in-between ) maybe that is the clue to getting rid of the NK?
….also I don’t think there will be a Dany v’s Jon storyline as Tyrian has a lot of respect for the Starks he would never advise that.
Not quite. But the effort was remarkably noble.
No, you are right. Jon is all that is pure and magnificent. A saint amongst men who never, in his entire life, has broken a vow he may have taken. A warrior like no other who has won every single battle he has ever been involved in. A peerless poet whose epithets will illuminate all future generations.
Some blasphemers dare say that he is a mere human. Some herectics even add that this frailty is what makes characters appealing. But we know better.
The Seven know that no one, in the whole history of mankind, has ever changed their mind over a matter after more ample and thorough consideration. Such a thing is unheard of and shall forever remain but the elusive dream of a madman.
Well, she was staring very intently at his corpse when, in the courtyard of Winterfell, she asked Jon where Ramsay was… But one long, grief-stricken, rage-filled stare is not a second glance. So no.
We can therefore safely assume she did not care about her little brother’s demise, monstrous creature that she is !
Yes !
Sansa is all that is vile and corrupt, malevolent and putrid. I am certain she is planning to murder Jon Snow in his sleep at this very minute, like she poisoned the poor Joffrey at his wedding feast. And when I think of what she did to the noble and sinless heir of House Bolton, my blood boils !
I do not. It is merely my interpretation which is, of course, as questionable and subjective as any.
I just find it much more believable to think she has tremendous affection for her siblings than to assume the contrary. As far as I have been able to observe, she does not seem to display any severe pathological traits that would indicate she has lost (or never has had) the ability to love. So I extrapolate.
It may be a flaw in my reasoning (or personality) but I do not believe there is such a thing as being a loving person. Love, in my opinion, is not a disposition but a type of relationship. It does not exist in a vacuum. So, to be loving, one needs someone to love.
Who could she have loved so far ? From the second half of the first season until very recently, we have only seen her surrounded by people who either held her captive, mistreated her appalingly, had the potential (and possibly incentive) to betray and murder her or used her as an asset in their own endeavours.
Had she, at any point, demonstrated any kind of profound affection for those people, I would question her mental sanity and abilities.
Nevertheless, she has shown the ability to be warm and affectionate when given the proper incentive and reassurance : she seemed to warm up to Tyrion when the shock of being married to a man she did not know started wearing off (and before his family caused the massacre of part of hers), she worried for Theon when he said he would not go with her and her crew to Castle Black, she spontaneously apologised to Jon for her past behaviour after they were reunited, etc.
I would argue that, after the initial spitfire reaction of “we have to save him” provoked by the letter, she might have had time to rethink the issue and come to the disgustingly unpalatable conclusion that a rescue was as good as impossible.
I do not think it is an easy conclusion to reach : nobody wants to think they cannot save the people they love from everything. But when push comes to shove, reality is what it is and it may be just as well to accept it.
Ah, the famous Stark cockiness ! I have to admit Sansa made me laugh when she went all “Daddy told me the North is super duper special and they love us”. This romantic notion seems shared by quite a few Starks (Ned, Robb, Sansa) : Northerners are, in the Stark mythos, those amazing people who pledge their allegiance to the Direwolves in their craddles and do not recant, even in their graves. It is a grotesque idea (well done Davos for the reality check) for allegiance and loyalty are not owed but earned and when you use people’s trust to take them on a fool’s errand, they are suspicious the next time you ask. The North does remember. Everything.
Robb learnt that at the Red Wedding; luckily for Sansa, her encounter with reality was less brutal, in this regard.
As for “not enough men” well… It is true.
Jon himself even admits it. Which is why he and Davos had to devise a strategy based on waiting out Ramsay (“they have the numbers; we must have the patience” Davos). And even with that tactic in place, it was a gamble.
I have to disagree with you though on the matter of “they had to make a move”. I do not think they had to. They did not have to do anything. As paradoxical as it may seem, in this case, they are the aggressors. They are the ones on the attack. So Ramsay cannot force their timing (except by provoking them). Technically, they could wait next month or next year.
I believe these two statements refer to two very different kinds of protection : a contextual protection and a “blanket” one.
Brienne worried specifically about Sansa staying alone (the only woman) in a castle inhabited solely by male soldiers (reasonable concern !). Sansa reassured her that nothing would happen here : nobody would dare attack the Lord Commander’s sister.
Jon, with all his heart and soul, vows to protect Sansa against something he, ultimately, has no real control over. If their forces lose the battle to Ramsay, there is objectively nothing he will be able to do to prevent Bolton from getting Sansa back and do whatever he will want to her. No matter how sincere and heartfelt, Jon’s promise is empty. Sansa’s statement is correct : no one can protect anyone. Not truly. Not all the time. Not against everything. He cannot protect her any more than he can save Rickon. It is heartwrenching and Jon’s sense of honour and duty has an extremely hard time dealing with such data. However, the sooner he realises it, the better. It will keep him from making rather consequential mistakes.
That is perfectly fine. Subjectivity is what it is and there is not one objective truth when it comes to interpretation. No correct answer.
I find Sansa to be a perfectly palatable and interesting character who, considering her age and the situations she has been through, had managed to maintain a rather impressive amount of humanity. But to each their own ^^
Oh, whew! I’m glad to hear that because I enjoy all of your posts, as well. I do understand being angry with those who spread information from leaked episodes or the Reddit spoilers that appear to be spoilers from one person who’s watched the episodes. I always report those I find, and I am happy when I see others reporting them.
The greatest things this episode have taught me are the lengths someone will go to hate something everyone likes for edgy cool points, and the lengths people will go to hate a female character who has made harder choices with less fallout than male ones they champion.
The site is called the Watchers on the Wall but a lot of you should really be called The Reach because you are certainly reaching for that hate.
Acme,
hehe.. I’ve never gotten this agitated over anything fictional…ever.
Jon forgot to follow not trusting Ramsey? You think that dashing to save Rickon was Jon “trusting” Ramsey?
Wow this thread has really gone downhill such a shame for such an awesome episode.
Love this one from beginning to end. What a super episode from Dany at Meereen to Jon at Winterfell. I am going to reserve judgement on Sansa for now until we see how it plays out. I am disappointed in her keeping information from Jon. Glad she was the one to finish off Ramsey.
Am I bad to cheer every single punch Jon threw at Ramsey?
I really think Jon and Dany are going to be on the same team. It is amazing how their arcs are evolving.
Sad that we only have one more week to go. ?
Wow this thread has really gone downhill such a shame for such an awesome episode.
Love this one from beginning to end. What a super episode from Dany at Meereen to Jon at Winterfell. I am going to reserve judgement on Sansa for now until we see how it plays out. By the way I am a woman and one that is very strong willed so stop with the sexist comments already. I am disappointed in her keeping information from Jon. Glad she was the one to finish off Ramsey.
Am I bad to cheer every single punch Jon threw at Ramsey?
I really think Jon and Dany are going to be on the same team. It is amazing how their arcs are evolving.
Sad that we only have one more week to go. ?
No. Jon didn’t make a mistake in going after Rickon even though that’s what Ramsay wanted him to do. Running after Rickon was the right move. But after Rickon was dead and all hope of saving him was completely lost, Jon should have high-tailed it back to his men that very moment. Sansa had warned him not to do exactly what Ramsay wanted him to do, and it was clear Ramsay was baiting him the entire time. Even Tormund who wasn’t there for Sansa’s peptalk could tell it was a trap.
Yet Jon still failed in that moment to remember to follow her advice, charging straight toward stupidity at full speed until his horse died. When the Bolton men start charging the completely defenseless Jon, as he gets up from his fall, shakes himself off, and draws Lightbringer, he’s thinking, “I just made the most dumbass mistake of my entire life!” And he’d be right.
Here is a post on Reddit, that is a pretty cool theory. It talks about Jon’s life and purpose of why he did what in the B.O.B
I find it very plausible.
Apologizes if already posted.