Game of Thrones Season 6 Episode 7 Preview: The Broken Man

Blackfish

“As long as I’m standing, the war is not over.”

In addition to getting hyped up for this Sunday’s new Game of Thrones episode, we also have next week’s episode to think about. HBO has updated their official schedule to include the title of season 6, episode 8 as “No One.” That would appear to confirm the first of the titles leaked by a German network last week. The other end-of-the-season titles, which seemed suspect, are looking more likely now. We expect to hear from HBO any day now with the confirmed episode titles and synopses, so we’ll pass that info on as soon as we hear.

Have a look at the official photos from “The Broken Man” here.

I am very excited for this one. We’re expecting Ian McShane to make his appearance, and it’s a huge episode for Riverrun, with the return of the Blackfish. We can also look forward to some big moments for the Starks, with Sansa and Jon making the North remember.

Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

609 Comments

  1. I already set up a playdate for my kid so I can watch first airing. I’m so looking forward to McShane, and the return of the Blackfish, not to mention the Stark Family Reunion Tour of the North.

  2. Really looking forward to the return of the Blackfish. Hopefully, its not a quick walk on. And Ian McShane, of course. I’ll just imagine him thinking “tits and dragons”.

  3. Dee:
    SO HYPED

    I get more so every day! I don’t think Jon is the broken man but that they refer to someone else, but I don’t dare say more because I know you haven’t read the books. I’m expecting a great scene with Ian McShane!

  4. Hubo,

    I think this episode will probably feature Sansa more than Jon….

    (actually thats kinda true for this season so far imo)… I assume Jon will get more screentime in eps 9 and 10

  5. HelloThere,

    I need more resurrected Jon feelings/discussion.
    Fighting in a battle is not really something new (episode 9)
    I feel like we need more.

  6. Dee:
    Elizabeth,

    Oh hahaha
    yeah no spoilers!

    But maybe it could represent more than one character!!

    And maybe it can!
    Just know I’m so hyped and it’s Friday so not much longer! Yippee:)

  7. Looking forward to Ian McShane and the Gravedigger; Arya’s plight; and

    the beginning of the end of the Freys.

    I’m also looking forward to seeing if some memorable book moments make it into the show at Riverrun and during the northern roadshow. Oddly, since I detest the II, I’m also looking forward to seeing Theon and Yara’s storyline. What ARE they up to? Can they kickstart the Meereen storyline? This should be a good epi!

  8. Mihnea,

    4 left 🙁

    makes me so sad.

    im leaving on vacation 3 days after the finale, so thatll help with the initial trauma of no GOT for 10 months

  9. Dee,

    I think a lot of it is D&D really trying hard to respond to the criticisms that Sansa’s storyline last season was all for shock, and would not impact her character development moving forward.

    We can argue all day long about that storyline,
    but I do appreciate their efforts tbh….. Loving her scenes this season.

    But yes.. we need more of Jon Snow’s inner thoughts.

  10. I don’t remember exactly, but was McShane was only signed for one episode?

    Looking forward to this one and how they reintroduce the BwB and the Blackfish. It’s impossible to choose what I am most anticipating between Northern recruitment, the fallout in KL, and all the potential characters in close proximity at Riverrun, even wrapping up Bravos.

    I don’t hate the other storylines (Dany, Sam, Iron Islands) just not as excited to see them unfold.

    This week will is setup to be an amazing run for the last few episodes of the season. After we have not seen the Blackfish for so long and him being downright defiant to the crown in the trailer, McShane

    possibly reintroducing Sandor!!!

    Northern houses being brought in to decide where their loyalty lies.

    I can’t wait!!!

  11. Mihnea,

    I’m with you on that. The wait is so long and the season so short! What will I do with my life when this show is over??

  12. Making the 8,

    Hmmm , the BwB….. Frey did mention them last episode.. I would LOVE if theyre back this season! That would be sick

    How about an Arya + BwB reunion?!?!?!

  13. Dee,

    I change my mind between like and dislike about that storyline every day, lol.

    But I love what has come out of it

    bring Sansa back home, back to the North, uniting her and Jon, making her an active player in retrieving Winterfell, and most of all finally having LF truly facing a woman whose life he has destroyed (which, as a Brothel keep, he probably has done 100s of times)… I doubt Jeyne Pool will ever get to do that).

  14. Mihnea:
    God, these past weeks went quickly….

    Mihnea:
    God, these past weeks went quickly….

    Mihnea:
    God, these past weeks went quickly….

    They moved MUCH to quickly and it will be a long year until we get a partial season again. Even the episodes don’t see to be long, I know even at 50/odd minutes it just flies by:(

    Dee:
    SO HYPED

    I get more so every day! I don’t think Jon is the broken man but that they refer to someone else, but I don’t dare say more because I know you haven’t read the books. I’m expecting a great scene with Ian McShane!

  15. Dee,

    I agree …her evolution has never been for anything less than a great story and crazy journey…people be too sensi bout Sansa

    On another note Im glad were getting more of everything else and less of Dorne…the Sand snakes are the jar jar binks of GoT

  16. Onion Knight don’t cry,

    Hard.

    hahaha – honestly, I would have liked to see more Dorne, I like the Dorne stuff.
    BUT – I will take more time for my favorite stories such as North, Dany, Arya over Dorne hahaha.

  17. Arthur,

    The Hound is dead.

    Too many “we thought this character was dead but are actually still alive” situations going on already

  18. Dee:
    Mihnea,

    4 left

    makes me so sad.

    im leaving on vacation 3 days after the finale, so thatll help with the initial trauma of no GOT for 10 months

    We will be here Dee, once you return. ?
    Then you can join us feeling extremely sad, miserable and lost. Until we start to get filming spoilers.

    Oops, forgot, you don’t read those. These months must be really hard on you.

  19. I’m very much looking forward to the (already!) 7th episode of this season!! Especially, after large parts of last episode were somehow badly timed in my opinion (Benjen reveal wasn’t as surprising and dramatic as I hoped; Arya runs away just to hide and switch off the light; I’m waiting for Sam to be “our” Sam and once it happens he just walks into the unprotected dining area and steals.. well just takes the most valuable sword in the region and walks away like in a comedy; and the weird last scene with Dany where she goes around the corner and after a long presumably suspensful minute (it wasn’t really!) comes back ON Drogon although I hoped for a reunion that was more relieving or purposeful than holding a motivation speech for.. well.. going on ships.. when?.. after the next week of marching is over, and ships are organized in the weeks/months/years to come..).

    This episode, though, will be epic, I’m sure – after all those exposition scenes in e6.

    My guess for NO ONE e8 is that Arya fights the Waif and wins – and either takes her face to become no one without being given the blessing by the Faceless men OR – more interestly perhaps – somehow dares to get back to Jaquen (?) and is allowed to become a faceless person nevertheless, as the Waif trying to kill Arya for personal reasons has proven not to be ready herself and, thus, counts as the ‘price that had to be payed’ (“one way or another”).

  20. HelloThere,

    Yeah, even the preview seems to suggest a more Sansa-focused episode. As usual. I’m getting irritated with the fact that when they have two main characters together they seem incapable of developing both of them sufficiently.

    We’re at episode 7, and Jon has only been present and alive in 3 of them. He didn’t have much in Oathbreaker aside from waking up and dealing with the mutineers, and then 6.04 and 6.05 gave Sansa many more lines and all the character development. Jon faded into the background as a supporting character in Sansa’s quest for Winterfell. This is supposed to be Jon’s season, Jon’s fight with Ramsay, Jon’s time to lead an army.
    If they don’t make up for all of this in the last 4 episodes I’ll be disappointed.

    And giving him lots of screen time during the battle is not enough. There needs to be character development. Interesting character development. They need to truly show us his growth and how he has changed post-resurrection. Him complaining in 6.04 about being tired of fighting is not gonna cut it as our Jon character development of the season.

  21. Looks like

    No One Bowl is episode 8, going by the title.

    Also after this episode, the next 3 are going to be looooong! 😀 😀

  22. Dee,

    Well we never saw the Hound die, to be fair. If he should return at some point, it’ll probably be that he didn’t die in the first place, not that he was resurrected.

    That’s my assumption at least.

    And I never thought Benjen was dead and never coming back, that wouldn’t have made sense narratively, so I would really only count Jon as an instance of returning from death.

  23. Onion Knight don’t cry: On another note Im glad were getting more of everything else and less of Dorne…the Sand snakes are the jar jar binks of GoT

    Good comparison which is why we have only seen them for 2 minutes in the premiere of this season and moved on. I liked the potential there with Siddig and revenge but the story did feel out of place with the rest of our Westerosi adventures

  24. So people are talking a lot about Jaime and BF since that’s book stuff I guess, but I think BF meeting Brienne could also be very interesting. Remember how well it’s gone when she’s showed up saying she’s working for the Starks but carrying Lannister Steel (not well!). I suspect that Bryndyn will notice.

    Hopefully, Sansa has given her something with the Stark seal on it so she has some proof! Otherwise I suspect BF will assume she’s a turncoat.

    Also will Brienne or Jaime arrive st RR first?? I can’t wait to see how this goes down.

  25. Hubo:
    I think this should be the Jon-focused episode Kit was talking about

    I think the “Jon Snow” episode will be on Father’s Day June 19 2016

  26. I still think “Battle of the Bastards” is not the title of episode 9, it sounds so dumbed down. If this is indeed the title of episode 9 I’m disappointed for their lack of subtlety. “No One” can mean a variety of things, and “Winds of Winter” is also believable, but oh so predictable, those two I have no problem with. I know it’s just a title so don’t bother telling me so. And for those who would point at the titles so far, it’s not about simplicity, it’s about subtlety.

  27. Making the 8,

    To be fair, I expect to get about the same amount as last year, except Jaime/Bronn scenes. So I think in the end will have somewhere around 5-6 minutes of screen time.

  28. Markus Stark,

    I know we didn’t see him die.

    I didn’t mean being resurrected.

    I meant like Blackfish, Benjen, Edmure – characters who haven’t been seen in a few seasons who had question marks on them.

    Just my opinion.

  29. Markus Stark,

    If the filming stuff turns to be true, this is the episode were Varys leaves Meereen. So I think will see more Dorne later on, EP10 surely perhaps even EP8 but not 9.
  30. Arthur,

    We truly don’t know. Theories galore, but no actual confirmation. Even more mysterious than

    R+L=J

    if you ask me.

  31. Dee,

    I see what you mean.

    I do think we’ll probably see more and more of those kinds of returns now that we’re nearing the end of the show. They have loose ends to tie up.

    Hopefully they’ll be done well enough that it won’t bother you !
    The key is for it to feel organic and not like it’s a force/unnecessary return.

  32. This week’s Games of Odds questions from HBO Hungary:

    1) Will Jamie take back Riverrun from Blackfish?

    2) Will Arya get her punishment from the Waif?

    3) Will Sansa’s group get enough soldier to their army?

    (I really don’t like this last one, why is it called Sansa’s group, why not Jon’s?)

    What do you think, guys? 🙂

  33. I could see an episode be named “Bastard”, but “Battle of the Bastards” just doesn’t seem realistic.

  34. Markus Stark,

    Actually, Markus, I have had no issues with any return, and I would love if the Hound returns 🙂 I am just saying we shouldn’t get our hopes up cause it may be too good to be true

  35. Dee:
    Arthur,

    The Hound is dead.

    Too many “we thought this character was dead but are actually still alive” situations going on already

    The Hound never died on screen.

  36. Mihnea,

    Yeah, it seems likely for an episode 10 appearance. I get the feeling this year’s finale will touch on literally every single story. Sort of like an epic wrap-up before the final act. Hence the 70 minute runtime.

  37. luki17,

    I say Yes, No, No. (And I agree, don’t like this ‘Sansa’s group’ thing but we should wait and see first before judging).

  38. CONFIRMED LOCATIONS: Riverrun, King’s Landing, The North (Deepwood Motte, Bear Island, The Gift), Volantis, Braavos

    CONFIRMED CHARACTERS: Jaime Lannister, Bronn, Brynden “Blackfish” Tully, “Lame” Lothar Frey, Black Walder Rivers, Edmure Tully, Cersei Lannister, Olenna Tyrell, Gregor “The Mountain” Clegane, Margaery Tyrell, Septa Unella, Sansa Stark, Jon Snow, Davos Seaworth, Robett Glover, Arya Stark, Yara Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy, Tormund Giantsbane

    PRESUMED/SPECULATED CHARACTERS:

    Brienne of Tarth, Podrick Payne, Thoros of Myr, Sandor “The Hound” Clegane, Septon Meribald/Elder Brother, The High Sparrow, Tommen Baratheon, Lancel Lannister, Kevan Lannister, Qyburn, Grand Maester Pycelle, Mace Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, Melisandre, Lyanna Mormont, Wyman Manderly, The Waif, Jaqen H’ghar

    RIDING THE BENCH/UNCONFIRMED: (Meereen) Tyrion Lannister, Varys, Grey Worm, Missandei; (Dothraki Sea) Daenerys Targaryen, Daario Naharis, Jorah Mormont; (Beyond the Wall) Bran Stark, Meera Reed, Benjen Stark, The Night King; (Iron Islands) Euron Greyjoy, Aeron Greyjoy; (Winterfell) Ramsay Bolton, Rickon Stark

    PREDICTIONS;

    The Riverlands: At Riverrun, Jaime will arrive to take command of the Lannister and Frey forces besieging the castle. He will find the situation much as he does in AFFC, under the command of idiotic Freys who believe they can force the Blackfish to capitulate by threatening his nephew. Jaime and Bronn will take the siege in hand and will attempt a negotiated settlement with the Blackfish, but find him in no mood to surrender. Because this season has seen a lot of culling of secondary characters, its possible they end up executing Edmure for real here. I’m not sure how, or whether it happens in this episode or not, but the siege will likely end in the Lannisters and Freys favor. Meanwhile, Brienne and Podrick will chance upon a skirmish between the Brotherhood Without Banners, now under Thoros of Myr, and a group of bandits or partisans under Septon Meribald (or equivalent character). Somehow during this encounter, the Hound’s survival will be revealed, but he will be much different from the Hound we knew from seasons past.

    King’s Landing: The aftermath of the confrontation at the Sept of Baelor will establish that the High Sparrow is ascendant in King’s Landing. He has converted Margaery, and through her Tommen, and only has Cersei left to neutralize. He will exercise some crown/faith prerogative to forestall the option of a trial by combat, and this will force Cersei to seek other avenues of attack. She will certainly utilize The Mountain and Qyburn and his Little Birds, and will seek out aid from Olenna and Kevan, both of whom will deny her due to fears about the High Sparrow possessing their heirs. Once Kevan and Olenna do this, they become impediments and targets for her retribution.

    The North: This location is really fuzzy. The indications are that we will see numerous new locations and characters, but just how many is unclear. From the promo we see that Robett Glover will be confronting Sansa in some fashion. Perhaps he will be suspicious of her because she is Ramsay’s wife, after all. Judging from the synopsis it seems almost certain that we’ll meet Wyman Manderly and getting his North Remembers speech. The big question I have is, are we going to see a number of scenes split up between several locations, or is there going to be some sort of summit of minor Nothern houses somewhere. Either way, we should see Lyanna Mormont, Wyman Manderly, and Davos Seaworth being a fucking boss.

    Volantis: Probably this will just be a table setting scene between Theon and Yara to establish that they are on the run from Euron, and are heading to Daenerys. With so many other plot lines in this episode, I doubt we’d have time for much more than that.

    Braavos: It feels a little early for it, but this could be the episode where we get the big chase and fight scene between Arya and the Waif. If it does happen, I anticipate that Arya will somehow use her new assassin skills to detect that the Waif is stalking her, and make a run for it. She’ll do some pretty awesome parkour, but she won’t get away from the Waif without bloodshed.

    POSSIBLE DEATHS: Kevan Lannister, Grand Maester Pycelle, Loras Tyrell, Rickon Stark, The Waif, Edmure Tully, Septa Unella, Lancel Lannister, Margaery Tyrell, Olenna Tyrell, Mace Tyrell, Melisandre

  39. Markus Stark,

    Well they do say that once a person comes back from the dead they are always changed in some way. Perhaps the steely side of Jon will never reappear.

  40. Sword of the Morning,

    The only importance I grant episode titles is how badass they’ll look in my best-to-worst episode rankings haha.

    But yeah, “Battle of the Bastards” does seem odd, especially since Ramsay is no longer technically a bastard. Just seems like a fan-made name more than a D&D style title.

  41. Could it be that Gendry is finally coming back? He rowed away into obscurity, but there’s no reason he couldn’t have ended up with the BwB like he did in the books. Then, Arya could come back to Westeros(finally) and reunite with him and decide to join the BwB to get her revenge(also, finally). That would probably be way too convenient for Game of Thrones though.

  42. I don’t complain too much about books changes. But I hope Ian McShane’s speech is, (if not word for word because of time) at least 70 or 80% lifted word for word from the source material. It’s too good not to be, and not to utilize his cameo for that would be a strange decision.

  43. Markus Stark,

    I agree. Totally. When 2 big characters get together, the show can’t seem to be able to do justice to both of them. One of them inevitably gets shortchanged. Jaime and Jon are both examples of this. The ep 7 preview is definitely not encouraging in this regard.

  44. I also expect the Arya Vs. Waif fight for episode 8 with that title. I’m a little worried about it though. Why No one???? We might learn more about the Faceless Men true intentions with Arya. Everyone would be extremely shock if Arya is killed by the Waif. That can’t happen.
    I want so much to watch Arya kill Walder Frey this season and go to Winterfell afterwards for a full Stark family reunion. I don’t think there is enough time for both.
    If all surviving Stark siblings get together at the end of the season, we could have marvellous posters with all the family for Season 7.

  45. HousePotterz:
    CONFIRMED LOCATIONS: Riverrun, King’s Landing, The North (Deepwood Motte, Bear Island, The Gift), Volantis, Braavos

    CONFIRMED CHARACTERS: Jaime Lannister, Bronn, Brynden “Blackfish” Tully, “Lame” Lothar Frey, Black Walder Rivers, Edmure Tully, Cersei Lannister, Olenna Tyrell, Gregor “The Mountain” Clegane, Margaery Tyrell, Septa Unella, Sansa Stark, Jon Snow, Davos Seaworth, Robett Glover, Arya Stark, Yara Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy, Tormund Giantsbane

    PRESUMED/SPECULATED CHARACTERS:

    Brienne of Tarth, Podrick Payne, Thoros of Myr, Sandor “The Hound” Clegane, Septon Meribald/Elder Brother, The High Sparrow, Tommen Baratheon, Lancel Lannister, Kevan Lannister, Qyburn, Grand Maester Pycelle, Mace Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, Melisandre, Lyanna Mormont, Wyman Manderly, The Waif, Jaqen H’ghar

    RIDING THE BENCH/UNCONFIRMED: (Meereen) Tyrion Lannister, Varys, Grey Worm, Missandei; (Dothraki Sea) Daenerys Targaryen, Daario Naharis, Jorah Mormont; (Beyond the Wall) Bran Stark, Meera Reed, Benjen Stark, The Night King; (Iron Islands) Euron Greyjoy, Aeron Greyjoy; (Winterfell) Ramsay Bolton, Rickon Stark

    PREDICTIONS;

    The Riverlands: At Riverrun, Jaime will arrive to take command of the Lannister and Frey forces besieging the castle. He will find the situation much as he does in AFFC, under the command of idiotic Freys who believe they can force the Blackfish to capitulate by threatening his nephew. Jaime and Bronn will take the siege in hand and will attempt a negotiated settlement with the Blackfish, but find him in no mood to surrender. Because this season has seen a lot of culling of secondary characters, its possible they end up executing Edmure for real here. I’m not sure how, or whether it happens in this episode or not, but the siege will likely end in the Lannisters and Freys favor. Meanwhile, Brienne and Podrick will chance upon a skirmish between the Brotherhood Without Banners, now under Thoros of Myr, and a group of bandits or partisans under Septon Meribald (or equivalent character). Somehow during this encounter, the Hound’s survival will be revealed, but he will be much different from the Hound we knew from seasons past.

    King’s Landing: The aftermath of the confrontation at the Sept of Baelor will establish that the High Sparrow is ascendant in King’s Landing. He has converted Margaery, and through her Tommen, and only has Cersei left to neutralize. He will exercise some crown/faith prerogative to forestall the option of a trial by combat, and this will force Cersei to seek other avenues of attack. She will certainly utilize The Mountain and Qyburn and his Little Birds, and will seek out aid from Olenna and Kevan, both of whom will deny her due to fears about the High Sparrow possessing their heirs. Once Kevan and Olenna do this, they become impediments and targets for her retribution.

    The North: This location is really fuzzy. The indications are that we will see numerous new locations and characters, but just how many is unclear. From the promo we see that Robett Glover will be confronting Sansa in some fashion. Perhaps he will be suspicious of her because she is Ramsay’s wife, after all. Judging from the synopsis it seems almost certain that we’ll meet Wyman Manderly and getting his North Remembers speech. The big question I have is, are we going to see a number of scenes split up between several locations, or is there going to be some sort of summit of minor Nothern houses somewhere. Either way, we should see Lyanna Mormont, Wyman Manderly, and Davos Seaworth being a fucking boss.

    Volantis: Probably this will just be a table setting scene between Theon and Yara to establish that they are on the run from Euron, and are heading to Daenerys. With so many other plot lines in this episode, I doubt we’d have time for much more than that.

    Braavos: It feels a little early for it, but this could be the episode where we get the big chase and fight scene between Arya and the Waif. If it does happen, I anticipate that Arya will somehow use her new assassin skills to detect that the Waif is stalking her, and make a run for it. She’ll do some pretty awesome parkour, but she won’t get away from the Waif without bloodshed.

    POSSIBLE DEATHS: Kevan Lannister, Grand Maester Pycelle, Loras Tyrell, Rickon Stark, The Waif, Edmure Tully, Septa Unella, Lancel Lannister, Margaery Tyrell, Olenna Tyrell, Mace Tyrell, Melisandre

    What happened to Beric then?

  46. Connor,

    Right. I wonder what Arya’a plan will be in this episode. It would be good to have an Arya episode without they annoy Waif.

    The leaked summary for ep8 said ‘arya is not alone’. Although it sounded like she will meet some friend in that episode, looks like it will be the Waif who will not leave her alone.
  47. Hey everyone, if you’re discussing filming or book spoilers, and using that info to make predictions, you definitely have to cover that up!

  48. Markus Stark:
    HelloThere,

    Yeah, even the preview seems to suggest a more Sansa-focused episode. As usual. I’m getting irritated with the fact that when they have two main characters together they seem incapable of developing both of them sufficiently.

    We’re at episode 7, and Jon has only been present and alive in 3 of them. He didn’t have much in Oathbreaker aside from waking up and dealing with the mutineers, and then 6.04 and 6.05 gave Sansa many more lines and all the character development. Jon faded into the background as a supporting character in Sansa’s quest for Winterfell. This is supposed to be Jon’s season, Jon’s fight with Ramsay, Jon’s time to lead an army.
    If they don’t make up for all of this in the last 4 episodes I’ll be disappointed.

    And giving him lots of screen time during the battle is not enough. There needs to be character development. Interesting character development. They need to truly show us his growth and how he has changed post-resurrection. Him complaining in 6.04 about being tired of fighting is not gonna cut it as our Jon character development of the season.

    http://giphy.com/gifs/the-office-thank-you-michael-scott-1Z02vuppxP1Pa

  49. mrspeel,

    I realize that, but what I mean is I need more of a change than that to be satisfied. I need him to make interesting and unexpected choices that illuminate how he has changed. The change should truly impact him.

    Anyway it’s just my personal desire. I never really thought the show would change him too much, they probably don’t want to mess with the things the audience has come to love about Jon, just like they didn’t go full throttle with Tyrion’s depression from ADwD. They generally tone these things down, especially with a popular character.

  50. Markus Stark,

    Bran will finish seeing the Tower of Joy scene and find out who Jon’s parents are and somehow Bran or Benjen gets back to the Stark’s Winterfell and tells Jon who his parents are. I the Tower of Joy scene will happen on Father’s Day June19 2016
  51. By the way from what I’ve read…

    This does not sound at all like the “Jon episode” Kit talked about. This sounds like it will be another Sansa heavy episode in their scenes. It’s more focused on the Northern Houses wanting to know why Sansa married Tyrion and then Ramsay and why they should trust her. Seems as if Jon, again, doesn’t have much work to do here and is essentially a supporting character. Supposedly doesn’t even have many lines in the Wildling scenes and is a supporting character in those scenes as well, this time for a big Tormund speech.

    My guess is the “Jon episode” is episode 10. Bran, young Ned again, and something rather significant with Jon is supposed to happen in this episode. We’ll see.

  52. Dee,

    I thought you were quoting a book character, but I see that you meant what you said literally.

  53. OK some rumors I read some time ago, but forgot to put here.
    I found it on….better not say….

    We know from a pic that someone posted here, that McShane plays a character named ”Ray”. I saw people saying that he will be a red priest, not a septon.
  54. Markus Stark,

    I am not complaining, because Sansa is an infinitely more interesting character than Jon..

    Tho it is weird seeing them not really developing a character who has experienced death…

  55. A flayed man none,

    Dee,

    Well we never saw the Hound die, to be fair. If he should return at some point, it’ll probably be that he didn’t die in the first place, not that he was resurrected.

    That’s my assumption at least.

    I think that it is worthwhile to consider that “The Hound” may be dead but not Sandor Clegane.

  56. I don’t get the (to me seemingly arbitrary) criticism of episode titles. “Battle of the Bastards” seems a likely name people in Westeros would give the looming skirmish. So why is it a “fan” title? Just because fans guessed it? “The Queen’s Bloody Diarrhea,” “Hodor’s Last ‘Hodor,'” or “Off a Bridge Not Merrily,” now those sound bad, because the mood doesn’t fit (or perhaps because they’re silly).

  57. I’m excited for everything in this episode, but what I’m most looking forward to is seeing how Sansa and Jon’s recruitment of the Northern Lords unfolds.

    I think many of us assumed, for the sake of expedience, that they would send out a letter inviting all of the loyal Northern houses to convene at one location – likely Bear Island – so that Jon and Sansa could address them all at once. Now, we know from the trailers and promotional photos that they’ll visit at least two houses – the Glovers at Deepwood Motte, and the Mormonts on Bear Island. There’s also a third scene where Jon, Sansa, and Tormund appear to be in what looks like the wildling camp. This may be happening while they travel between the two locations.

    As it happens, Deepwood Motte and Bear Island are both on the western side of the North, relatively close to one another. It’s plausible that they can visit both in the same episode. But what about the other Lords?

    We know that “Boyce” (potentially Lord Cerwyn) and “Fletcher” (likely Wyman Manderly) were cast for one day of filming. We also know, from set reports Saintfield, that the Hornwoods and the Mazins (a show-only house) fight with the Starks at the battle. But White Harbor and the Hornwood, at least, are on the eastern side of the North. As much as I don’t care about fast travel on the show, I acknowledge that the chances that Jon and Sansa will make it all the way over there in this episode are slim. To do so, they would have to travel past Bolton-controlled Winterfell, or take a long loop around.

    So either Jon and Sansa make several quick stops at several Northern houses, the remaining Northern Lords come to them, or they’re recruited in some other way. Like via letter. In the Episode 7 promo, we do see Sansa writing a letter, and affixing it with the Stark seal.

    One idea – back in Season 1, Episode 8 (“The Pointy End”) there’s the scene where Robb decides to call the banners, and we see a massive number of ravens departing Winterfell. GRRM, who wrote the episode, said on the DVD commentary track that in his original script, the sequence showed the ravens arriving at various keeps and castles across the North, with their Lords receiving them and mustering their forces. The show, quite understandably, scaled it back – they didn’t have the budget to do such a sequence in Season 1. Now, they just might.

    That could explain why “Boyce” and “Fletcher” had only one day of filming. In his interview with EW, Bryan Cogman said that for this week’s episode, there was a week of shooting for a sequence that wound up being his favorite week in all six seasons of the show. Perhaps that could be it?

    Either that, or they don’t appear in this episode. Another possibility that I’ve seen be raised is that after the Battle of the Bastards is over and the Stark forces have taken back Winterfell, there could be another scene where the surviving lords gather together in the castle and decide what to do next – namely, who becomes the new ruler of the North, Sansa or Jon. Perhaps Cerwyn and Manderly could be part of that scene instead. If Wyman’s going to deliver his speech, I’d like to think it would be to a character that we know, not just his family.

  58. Jared,

    Speaking of the devil!!

    We were just wondering, on a previous thread, why you don’t post so much anymore!

    Good to see you Jared, always love your thoughts and greatly enjoy your writing!

  59. Jared,

    The “Fletcher” character gives a lengthy speech where he unexpectedly changes sides, from the casting report, so I assume he’d show up before the battle. I’m not sure what side he could unexpectedly change at a post-battle summit, when the Starks have already won.
  60. Say what you will about D&D–and some of you will–but they aren’t afraid to reach back 3 or 4 seasons to reconnect with the fragments of apparently-dead storylines, and that sets them apart from everything else on TV. It might be my favorite part of the show entirely (besides all my other favorite parts.) It’s fantastic that they trust the audience to be invested enough for that sort of thing to work, and it’s even more fantastic that they’re able to do it with so few re-casts of significant characters.

    Also… am I getting sentimental from knowing it’s all coming to an end within a couple years, or has this been a really, really, really good season so far? (greedy bitches aside.) Not only a really good season, but one which appears poised for a very strong finish even if there were to be no big surprises, and of course there will be some big surprises.

    I’m irrationally angry just from knowing that there’s only about 3 and 1/3 hours of material left this season… feels like the greatest injustice of our time.

    Hyper than you are.

  61. ghost of winterfell,

    ofc

    actually jon is my favorite character in the books, but he is just too silent and introspective for him to be as interesting in the tv show w/o inner dialogue. (No blame on D&D or Kit)

  62. Dee,

    The difference is that the Hound was left there to die. So if he hasn’t, that means someone just happened to pass by and decided to take in a highly dangerous looking dying man. It could be, but not that plausible.
    On the other hand, I loved the Hound so I won’t really mind if he makes a reappearance.

  63. HelloThere,

    Yeah, Jon is probably one of the more difficult characters to portray since everything is so internalized with him. And because of this his S2 and S3 arcs suffered. I had hoped that after S5, things would change. Unfortunately not ?

  64. Markus Stark:
    Dee,

    I see what you mean.

    I do think we’ll probably see more and more of those kinds of returns now that we’re nearing the end of the show. They have loose ends to tie up.

    Hopefully they’ll be done well enough that it won’t bother you !
    The key is for it to feel organic and not like it’s a force/unnecessary return.

    The thing I am afraid is that they are bringing them back to kill them off. Like Osha and, I suspect, Rickon and Edmure Tully. I still have hope for the Blackfish. I mean a guy who escaped a massacre by going to the loo has an angel watching him.
    And then, I really hope the Freys reappearance will lead to a prompt death.

  65. harma dogememe:
    Say what you will about D&D–and some of you will–but they aren’t afraid to reach back 3 or 4 seasons to reconnect with the fragments of apparently-dead storylines, and that sets them apart from everything else on TV. It might be my favorite part of the show entirely (besides all my other favorite parts.) It’s fantastic that they trust the audience to be invested enough for that sort of thing to work, and it’s even more fantastic that they’re able to do it with so few re-casts of significant characters.

    Also… am I getting sentimental from knowing it’s all coming to an end within a couple years, or has this been a really, really, really good season so far? (greedy bitches aside.) Not only a really good season, but one which appears poised for a very strong finish even if there were to be no big surprises, and of course there will be some big surprises.

    I’m irrationally angry just from knowing that there’s only about 3 and 1/3 hours of material left this season… feels like the greatest injustice of our time.

    Hyper than you are.

    100% this

  66. Mihnea:
    OK some rumors I read some time ago, but forgot to put here.
    I found it on….better not say….

    I thought Ian’s own description of his character was much closer to him being the Elder Brother than SM, but agreed on a combination of the two. We don’t know the Elder Brother’s true name…

  67. luki17,

    1) Will Jamie take back Riverrun from Blackfish?

    2) Will Arya get her punishment from the Waif?

    3) Will Sansa’s group get enough soldier to their army?

    Here are my thoughts:

    Yes, the trailer for the season appeared to show a Frey celebration and I’m assuming it is due to retaking RR

    and that would follow the book story as well

    but it will set into motion a series of events

    BF escaping as he does in the books, BWB killing Freys, and perhaps a certain ex-FM might crash the party. I also wonder if the BF might take LSH’s book role in some sense

    No, the Waif will try (and will definitely hurt her) but will ultimately not succeed, maybe due to intervention, the fight has also been shown on the trailer

    Yes, Sansa (the budding Joan of Arc of Westeros) ultimately will, well she will once LF arrives to save the day with the knights of the Vale. The battle will go against them at first. But then I think that that is too cliche and what we all expect to happen. Certainly they will do something to shock us

    and maybe that’s where the parley at WF comes into play

    But I

  68. As long as I’m standing, the war is not over.

    That doesn’t really sound like a man who’s about to leave Riverrun for the North, or even a man who would sacrifice many of his troops to the North. Sorry, Brienne. #notmyhousenotmykingdomnotmywar

  69. Sou,

    Ya rickon is done like dinner. It sucks

    I’m worried for the blackfish – id be annoyed if he dies also

  70. Mihnea,

    Thanks, man! I appreciate that. 🙂

    I haven’t been posting much these past few weeks because I’ve been away from home in a place that doesn’t have the greatest Internet in the world. Also, I’m studying for board exams, which is taking up most of my time. In a perfect world, I wouldn’t be sitting for them during Game of Thrones season, but those are the breaks.

    I’ve been lurking though, keeping up with the articles and checking the comments whenever I can. Reading what you and the other regulars here at WOTW have been thinking about the last few episodes has been a nice respite from hitting the books. Since I have a day off today, so I decided to chime in. Season 6 has been superb – far too good for me to stay as relatively silent as I’ve been. Through six episodes, I think it’s my favorite season so far! Granted, it will need to maintain that level if it’s going to top Season 4, since the back half of that season is my favorite stretch of the show to date. But the way it’s been going, I think Season 6 will take the throne by the end.

    It’s been hard not being able to participate in the conversation as much as I usually do, but I’m loving what all of you guys have to say (one benefit of the time crunch – I’ve been forced to cut bait on some other reviews and discussion venues that were … less fulfilling). I hope I’ll be able to post more in the next few few weeks.

    Also, I agree with your comments on Dorne. There’s no chance that the show is done with those characters. We will see them again, likely when Varys leaves Meereen and returns to Westeros. But I also agree that we’re unlikely to see them again before the finale, so I expect that there are several people who will conclude that the show dropped the storyline entirely. They’ll be in for a surprise.
  71. I assume Jon told Sansa what happened to him offscreen, who gave the info offscreen to Brienne. Yet, I find it odd these characters act as if this happens everyday. And Bran. He saw everything else…except Jon’s death and/or resurrection in his visions. It does seem to me they have made an active decision to limit the resurrection of Jon, so much so his current positioning resembles a supporting character.

    I don’t understand why. This remains a show with dragons and ice demons and 400 year old witches. So I don’t buy trying to limit the “magic” or the “fantasy” excuse. I find it a bit odd, seven episodes deep, these characters shrug their shoulders at such an incredible event.

  72. Jared,

    Jared, welcome back. Always good to read your insightful commentary.

    Do you think the ravens might be sent between the Bear Island and Deepwood Motte meetings or before? I know distances and times on the show are somewhat elastic but you are correct White Harbor is far away from WF.

    However, don’t you think that Ramsey, once he has word that Sansa and Jon are attempting to rally the houses, he might send ravens requiring the Northern lords to bring their men to him at WF? And might the change be from one who has already received the Ramsey message but decides to change as Sean C suggested at some point before the battle?

  73. orange,

    That’s so true
    It would have been interesting to include a vision of stabbing scene in his mega download from last episode

    And then he would see the resurrection in another vision.

  74. House Applebee:
    I still think “Battle of the Bastards” is not the title of episode 9, it sounds so dumbed down. If this is indeed the title of episode 9 I’m disappointed for their lack of subtlety. “No One” can mean a variety of things, and “Winds of Winter” is also believable, but oh so predictable, those two I have no problem with. I know it’s just a title so don’t bother telling me so. And for those who would point at the titles so far, it’s not about simplicity, it’s about subtlety.

    The entire episode may revolve around the battle, so it’s apt. I love the title, personally.

  75. Dee:
    Sou,

    Ya rickon is done like dinner. It sucks

    I’m worried for the blackfish – id be annoyed if he dies also

    And I just got a bad feeling for Bronn…

  76. Sean C.:
    Hubo,

    That’s going to be Snowbowl, I guarantee.

    More “The Winds of Winter,” I think. Kit didn’t call “Hardhome” Jon-centric. He’s talking about Jon’s story. He’s talking about the ToJ and many other awesome nuggets, I hope.

  77. Sou,

    Bronn’s done really well for a small character. He’s made it further than some major players and is still relevant enough to sidekick for a main character.

    Edit: My point is, I think he’s safe for now.

  78. Valaquen: The entire episode may revolve around the battle, so it’s apt. I love the title, personally.

    Me too. It’s apt and also spoils nothing. All viewers are aware that Jon/Sansa are out to get Winterfell back from Ramsay after all.

    I’d be surprised if the German channel got one title right but not the other two.

    Anyway, most viewers probably couldn’t tell you what a single episode title was, so it’s not really a huge deal.

  79. Dee:
    Arthur,

    The Hound is dead.

    Too many “we thought this character was dead but are actually still alive” situations going on already

    Which ones? Benjen? Edmure? I never assumed they were dead. It did seem a might strange we didn’t see them for so long, but we also never heard anything that confirmed death. The same is true of the Hound. The gameofthrones.com website even fails to say that he is dead but only that “Arya left the Hound alone to die.”

    Now, if there was someone we watched die, undoubtedly, and that person was dead for years, say, then that would be a great indication indeed that this character’s arc was over. Otherwise, expect the unexpected.

  80. Sean C.,

    I agree, and I think that it will play out as just as you say. The only reason I even mentioned the other possibility is because I saw one of the potential leaks in the forums, and it made me wonder if there could be conflict among the Northern Lords as to whether Jon or Sansa should be the new King or Queen of the North after they win back Winterfell. That shift wouldn’t have the same impact, however. I wouldn’t have mentioned it at all but for the fact that “Fletcher” only filmed for one day and he hasn’t yet been explicitly confirmed to appear in this episode. That opens the door to uncertainty, so I’m trying to consider all potential options, even if I don’t think they’re particularly likely. Hopefully Wyman will appear this week, and all questions we have about the size, placement, and nature of his role will be answered.
  81. I am hoping Lyanna Mormont gives her speech, reminding/shaming the North into remembering their debt to the Starks.

  82. I have it on good authority…

    ..that WaifBowl will end with the Waif killing Arya, and taking her face.. and Maisie will play Waif-as-fArya as she is sent to Westeros by Jaquen to finish Arya’s list, out of respect for her memory.

    What authority, you ask? None, really. It would just be awesome.

  83. harma dogememe,

    Apart from the last episode (which I really understand it was needed, but it was a bit down imo), this season has been phenomenal and I wonder if it’s because I’m suddenly unsullied or if it really is just that great of a season.

    also, I’ll be really disappointed if episode 9 is really “Battle of the Bastards”

  84. Sword of the Morning:
    I could see an episode be named “Bastard”, but “Battle of the Bastards” just doesn’t seem realistic.

    Well, you might have a week to get used to it before they officially confirm. You might even have two. Or they could confirm all three tomorrow since they’ve already been leaked.

  85. Ginevra,

    As I explained in a further comment, what I was trying to say was, the Hound has had a question mark on him, just like the BF and Benjen and possibly Edmure, so I was putting them all in the same category.

    “The hound is dead” was me speculating and also being an a-hole cause we all want him back

  86. Jared,

    With three different Northern locations already confirmed for 607 (the Gift, Deepwood Motte, Bear Island), I doubt we’ll see Manderly or Cerwyn that week. That’ll be for 608, which is perhaps also where Sansa decides she has to accept the Vale’s help.

    Ginevra,

    With episode 609 being heavily about the North, past precedent would indicate there’s not going to be a ton of the North in 610; there’ll be some stuff, I’m sure, but the bulk will need to be given over to all the other storylines.

  87. If the Wall falls in episode 10… as per Benjen Stark, the NK will be there, and Bran will be there too ….

    Why would he be looking at visions in episode 10?? Unless the episode starts with a vision/revelation..

    I dunno, so excited and yeah im skipping a few weeks here lols

  88. Jaynee D.,

    I don’t think that list is based on episode. In fact it doesn’t look updated at all. She’s credited in the previous episodes.

    Edit: Well done, Kit.

  89. orange,

    Given that episode 10 will likely touch on every single story (as well as some non-stories, such as Dorne), I don’t think that’s the Jon episode, unfortunately.
    IIRC, Kit phrased it like “there’s an episode this year that is really all about Jon, it’s his story”, or something like that. Given that, I feel like it’s probably episode 9, since that’s the battle episode, and Jon will undoubtedly be featured heavily in it. Episode 10 just seems too sprawling to be “all about Jon”.

    And I really think the fact that he was on set more than anyone is just because he spent a month on set for the battle, and Dinklage clearly has less screen time this year than he usually has.

    So far, 6 episodes in, I think it’s fair to say Jon has never had so little to do. Every single season has featured him more heavily in the first 6 episodes than this one.

  90. Jaynee D.: they are posting Indira Varma in the cast for this episode, according to your link. SS maybe? i had hoped we were done with dorne.

    Where do you see the cast?

    Ok, Dorne is not great news, but I keep my hopes up (that it will somehow become relevant and not corny)

  91. Jaynee D.: they are posting Indira Varma in the cast for this episode, according to your link. SS maybe? i had hoped we were done with dorne.

    It’s a generic list. Look at the cast for Episode 6 “Blood of My Blood.” It has Kit Harington, Peter Dinklage, Iain Glen, Sophie Turner, and a whole bunch of others who didn’t show up in the episode. That same list appears in the description for all episodes.

    I wouldn’t assume that Indira Varma is in E7 based on that list.

    Edited: It seems I was ninja’d a few times. Carry on.

  92. Sou:
    Clob,

    Spoilers…

    Not much of a spoiler theorizing Ian’s character. There’s an entire thread on this site about what I wrote.

  93. I was about to suggest that The Brotherhood Without Banners could be the troops that Blackfish used to retake Riverrun, but I suppose flying Tully banners would go against their very name.

  94. Kit Hairyton,

    I wasn’t talking about this year being the weakest for Jon, of course it won’t be. If you read my comment, you’ll see I was talking about screen time. And I’ll wager Jon had more in the first 6 of season 2 than in the first 6 this year.

    Let me be clear that I’m talking about screen time while alive, so those scenes with Jon dead on a plank don’t count.

  95. Dee,

    Yes, I read that future comment later. I should wait to comment until I’ve finished reading all comments, but by then I know I would forget everything.

  96. What episodes is that Miguel guy directing?

    Be fun to see if he can live up to his Hardhome legand.

  97. The “Hound” shall become the new “Hodor” first-to-post requirement after this episode. Book it!

  98. luki17,

    it’s easy dude, even thoght I love Jon (my fav male character), he is a bastard, Sansa has the Stark name, so that means that she is the rightful heiress to the North

  99. I think that Arya will kill the Waif in episode 8 by darkening a room to give herself an advantage that results from her blind training. All that blindness training with the Waif was for a reason! Arya will offer the Waif’s body to Jacquen to pay the death debt to the many-faced god, and then Jacquen will release her from her service/training since it is now obvious that Arya can never be “no one”. As others have noted, the Waif’s hatred of Arya meant that she also failed a test of being “no one”. This is what makes her death a suitable substitute in the eyes of the many-faced god. Another face will be added to the hall.

  100. Sean C.,

    Good idea! I’d assumed that 6×08 would be more battle prep than recruitment, but if you’re right, then Lord Cerwyn and Lord Manderly could definitely appear next week instead. In fact, I like that possibility better than trying to figure out how to work them in this week.

    And yes, if the rumors that Sansa arrives at the battle with the Vale knights are correct, then at a certain point she’ll need to break off from Jon and the others to go meet up with them. Perhaps, after a few Northern houses turn them down (like the Glovers, perhaps), she realizes that they don’t have quite enough men to defeat Ramsay and that Brienne is unlikely to return with Blackfish and the Tullys in time. At that point, she decides to bite the proverbial bullet and seek Littlefinger’s aid after all. If that’s in the cards, it would likely happen next week as well.

    Darkrobin,

    I think the ravens would probably be sent from a castle, so after one of the meetings and perhaps both. My guess is that Jon, Sansa, and Davos will go to Deepwood Motte first, and Robett Glover turns them down – either because he doesn’t trust them (Jon because he’s a bastard who “deserted” the Night’s Watch, Sansa because she married Ramsay) or because his men are exhausted after taking Deepwood Motte back from the Ironborn. So Team Stark leaves angry and dejected. Then they get on a boat, go to Bear Island and meet Lyanna Mormont, who agrees to support them. When she does, they would have a temporary base for the rest of the episode. Sansa could send out some letters to the other Northern houses from there.

    As for Ramsay, I agree that word about what Jon and Sansa are doing is likely to reach him. Before the season started, I wondered if he might go out on his own recruiting campaign, but since the Karstarks and Umbers came to him and the Pink Letter has been sent, he’ll probably just sit in Winterfell and wait for Jon and Sansa to arrive. I do think it’s possible that, as you suggest, he could send out some more letters of his own, demanding that the Manderlys, Cerwyns, Hornwoods, and the others come to Winterfell to pledge their fealty to him, or else after the battle is over he’ll hunt them down, destroy their castles and flay them living, or something along those lines. Perhaps that’s when the Lords need to decide where their loyalities lie and whatever allegiances are going to change shift then and there.

  101. The Winter of Bastardfell,

    oh I like that!!!

    and you know what, many have commented on that – arya fighting the waif in the dark and in my head I always said, but the waif has always beat her.

    But I forgot that the waif could see when she was fighting her, and arya couldn’t , so she will have the advantage.

    Don’t know why I didn’t think of it that way – so stupid LOL

  102. I hope the Blackfish still has the Stark banner flying over Riverrun. I really like the way he tells Jaime the war is not over. It’s so badass!

  103. I also have several questions, but I will choose 3:
    a) Who are burning in the crosses at Winterfell?
    b) Will all the Stark children (Jon, Sansa, Rickon, Bran and Arya) arrive at Winterfell by the end of the season?
    c) Will Nymeria an her pack of wolves make an appearance in the show?

  104. The Winter of Bastardfell,

    Not that I object or anything, it is just that if I remember correctly this Sunday’s synopsis states something like “Arya has a plan”. If the waif doesn’t show up to get killed (hopefully) this episode, what kind of plan will Arya work out over a whole episode, in the dark?

  105. Alvaricomg,

    Except Jon is the one who will actually be leading the army and fighting in the battle. Sansa’s in this Northern campaign only because of streamlining and script convenience. This is very much Jon’s storyline and it’s his team as well. Not to mention Davos, Mel and Tormund are loyal to Jon, not Sansa.

  106. Onion Knight don’t cry,

    Ha!!

    JemFX,

    more interestly perhaps – somehow dares to get back to Jaquen (?) and is allowed to become a faceless person nevertheless, as the Waif trying to kill Arya for personal reasons has proven not to be ready herself and, thus, counts as the ‘price that had to be payed’ (“one way or another”).

    Thats rather been my thought. His comment then makes a great deal of sense. I wonder if she is allowed to leave with a face…(hee, saving face? 🙂

    Dee,

    Yep.

    If you think what Sansa went through was horrible, what happens to Jayne when she marries R is worse in the book. Much worse.

    HelloThere,

    She is a more interesting character, plus as a Stark she does have more interest in getting WF back and that might make it more palatable for the Northern lords. But I also agree with Jon, the the lack of any reaction about his death and resurrection. It all happened, and then – nothing. Was like we spent the entire year discussing and debating for nothing if they don’t have some kind of mention or something. Anyway – suspect we’ll hear more of Jon in 9 or 10.

    Jared,

    Hey, good to see your font again! You were missed (and I suppose your excuse is that you actually have a life outside GOT? 🙂

  107. Making the 8:
    Any mods confirm this?

    It’s not real, the author wrote this at the top of the article:

    The following is a chapter excerpt from A Dream of Spring*.

    * Not really.

    SBN is pretty satire-y.

  108. Ginevra,

    Hello there! 🙂 I hadn’t yet scrolled through all of the comments on the post with the Episode 7 photos, so I hadn’t seen that my absence was being discussed. It’s nice to know I was missed, even if my silence has reduced the amount of times that people need to reach for the scroll bar to get past my walls of text. 😉 I certainly missed talking about Game of Thrones with you all.

    ash,

    Hey there! Unfortunately, yes, I’ve been busy, and will be for the next month or so. As I told Mihnea, I’m currently away from home and studying for boards, which is why I haven’t been posting as frequently. It’s a shame that my current obligations coincide with the second half of Season 6, but that’s life. If I had all the money and time I needed, then in a perfect world, I would take a ten-week vacation during Game of Thrones season and basically just camp out here, doing nothing but thinking and talking about the show. Alas, it’s probably better for my sanity that I keep my focus on reality and occasionally check in with the Seven Kingdoms, as much as I’d like to do the opposite. 😉

  109. Jared,

    omg I feel you… years ago, the red wedding aired 5 days before my 4 hour long CPA exam (I didn’t read the books so that was an utter shock to me)

    IT WAS SO HARD TO STUDY lol

  110. Elizabeth: I don’t think Jon is the broken man but that they refer to someone else,

    Hyped?! Oh yes. This is the time of year when all activities spiral around Sunday coming. I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one on here who put their families on notice that unless you also intend to sit and watch, go away.

    There are a number of broken men to whom the title could apply. Jon, certainly, but he seems on the way to repair. Theon will never be the same, physically or mentally; Sam seemed to be doing well until he met with his father; Tyrion has made a life-style of being broken; Jaime could even be on this list – he always seems to be floundering. Just as it seems he’s getting his bearings, something undoes him, such as getting his hand lopped off, being fired from the King’s Guard, a daughter dying in his arms. He seems to be maintaining, but we will see how it plays out with him.

    I am aware of the other application for the title, and how it looks like McShane will be the means by which it is delivered, and that has me the most excited. Oh hell, who am I fooling, I’m excited that it’s almost Sunday

  111. This is one of the times i want the show goes it’s own way (regarding Riverrun’s storyline)….because I wasn’t very happy with how this went down in the books

  112. Darkrobin,

    Sansa (the budding Joan of Arc of Westeros)

    I like that as long as some Red Priestess doesn’t decide to carry that arc to its natural conclusion!

    Tycho Nestoris,

    yes but……he is brought back and ends up solving the lake mystery, and getting the gods to leave [/[spoiler}

    Dee,

    Also remember Arya has needle, and she knows how to use it, plus she has learned to fight while blind….don’t think she’ll have any trouble with the Waif

    mmm, my last comment is going through moderation ….mods, anything wrong? I covered the spoiler, really I did .

  113. Dee,

    Yikes! Watching arguably the most devastating episode of the series just before a major life event – that’s some unfortunate timing to say the least. When people joke that watching Game of Thrones can be hazardous to your health, this is what they’re talking about. Sounds like you got through it OK, though!

    I’m lucky that my exam isn’t scheduled until after the finale. Hopefully there will be enough time to process whatever emotional devastation that episode has in store for me. 😉

  114. Jared,

    Good to see you!

    Unfortunately, yes, I’ve been busy, and will be for the next month or so. As I told Mihnea, I’m currently away from home and studying for boards, which is why I haven’t been posting as frequently.

    Ok, well that means when the show is done you’ll be able to get on during the off season and talk about it all! I got ‘lucky’ this year and have been out on leave so have had lots of time to waste here. Actually wish that wasn’t so!! Hee anyway, Good luck on your boards!

  115. ash,
    Cool, thanks. I have to go back and finish it. I read Hyperion and started American Gods but then GoT started so I put it down.

  116. Thanks everyone for clarification. I click on all GOT/ASOIAF articles so now I have to sift through alot of the bullshit ones because the Internet tracks my interest and links me all info pertaining to both. I was on my lunch break and just got through the 1st paragraph without paying attention to the details of authenticity. Didn’t even realise it was an SBN article. I will read the rest anyway like a sucker though

  117. sue or other mods, somehow I messed up my spoiler, can you go up thread and fix it please…! (sorry!)

  118. ash,

    Hmmm ive heard of that book… recommend it ?
    I am looking for something to read. What genre is that?

  119. Alvaricomg,

    Except Rickon’s (still) alive and Sansa knows Bran is alive as well. She is no heir to anything. If she gets and accepts the seat of Winterfell she will be basically usurpring her brother’s right.

  120. Newbietothegame: We will be here Dee, once you return.
    Then you can join us feeling extremely sad, miserable and lost. Until we start to get filming spoilers.
    Oops, forgot, you don’t read those. These months must be really hard on you.

    I’m so glad everyone will be here afterwards. Last summer was my first of staying in touch with a website until the next season, and it made a huge difference. I couldn’t imagine what we’d be talking about, but doubts were erased within the first few weeks.

    All the Kit sightings and Hairgate were hilarious. Everyone poring over each released (or snatched) picture during filming, and reading the escapades of fans trying to get into the filming sites, added a whole new dimension to being part of the fandom of this series. I’m so glad WotW is here, and commend, once again, Sue and gang for making it so.

  121. Sou:
    Clob,

    an entire thread marked “spoilers ahead”.

    Well whatever. I usually code things I think are spoilers. I just wrote a character name and a set of initials – nothing about their role or characteristics.

  122. Dee:
    Mihnea,

    4 left ?

    makes me so sad.

    im leaving on vacation 3 days after the finale, so thatll help with the initial trauma of no GOT for 10 months

    Lol.. did you plan your vaca AROUND the GoT season? How convenient you don’t leave until AFTER the season ends?? Too funny if you did.. Im going away for the summer and leave next week so I made sure I have it all available on my computer before traveling ANYWHERE… not taking any chances of missing any episodes.. and SUPER HYPED for this weekends show.. just so much to look forward to!!

  123. Ginevra: More “The Winds of Winter,” I think.Kit didn’t call “Hardhome” Jon-centric.He’s talking about Jon’s story.He’s talking about the ToJ and many other awesome nuggets, I hope.

    Wooooohooooo to finally get the R+L=J storyline is going to be EEEEEEPPPPIC!! So much to look forward too!!

  124. Sean C.:
    Jared,

    Ginevra,

    With episode 609 being heavily about the North, past precedent would indicate there’s not going to be a ton of the North in 610; there’ll be some stuff, I’m sure, but the bulk will need to be given over to all the other storylines.

    I agree, and you may be right, but I think that break in precedent is exactly why Kit said this was an enormously strong season for Jon with one episode in particular.

    We know that the ToJ reveal will be this episode, and Young Ned has said that he’s got quite a long scene in this one. We can assume from the title of the episode that the Wall will come down. If the leaked descriptions are also correct (much less evidence that they are), then we’ll have several other non-northern storylines in “The Battle of the Bastards.” It would seem logical to confirm TPTWP this episode, although they may be saving that for Season 7. Where are those leaked descriptions, by the way?
  125. Jaynee D.: they are posting Indira Varma in the cast for this episode, according to your link. SS maybe? i had hoped we were done with dorne.

    Who told you Dorne was done? They still have their part to play towards the end.

  126. Ice Spider,

    Actually, I did.
    Initially we were leaving on Friday June 24, then my sister and I said UM no we are watching GOT here.. so we changed it LOLs

    Im leaving Canada so I had to make sure I could watch it live.
    It was soooo hard to wait a day to watch while I was in china LOL

  127. Ginevra: That doesn’t really sound like a man who’s about to leave Riverrun for the North, or even a man who would sacrifice many of his troops to the North.Sorry, Brienne.#notmyhousenotmykingdomnotmywar

    Yeah.. but he doesn’t KNOW the real truth either… when Jon and Sansa AND Davos show up to talk about the WW coming you don’t think that will motivate him to join? Im thinking he may after he hears what’s headed his way!! IJS

  128. Tycho Nestoris:
    ash,
    Cool, thanks. I have to go back and finish it. I read Hyperion and started American Gods but then GoT started so I put it down.

    I’ve read just about everything by Gaiman and Simmons. They’re both in my top 5 authors. Simmons could be my favorite. Have you read just Hyperion or the entire Hyperion Cantos? If that could get made into a movie or tv series I would be thrilled! I might have enjoyed his Illium/Olympos set even more though. That’s some brilliant stuff.

  129. Dee:
    Ice Spider,

    Actually, I did.
    Initially we were leaving on Friday June 24, then my sister and I said UM no we are watching GOT here.. so we changed it LOLs

    Im leaving Canada so I had to make sure I could watch it live.
    It was soooo hard to wait a day to watch while I was in china LOL

    Yeah.. that kinda reminds me of the episode that got leaked.. it was MURDER waiting to watch it knowing it was available online but I honestly I wasn’t ready to watch it early and I wanted to be respectful of the show.. I know I know.. that is going to PISS OFF a bunch of folks but IDGAF.. just my own personal beliefs. Not saying anyone has to abide by them… IJS… just me.

  130. Arya will be confronted by the waif, the scene will then cut to black without giving us a conclusion. Later on we will see Arya travelling back to the North and so it would appear that she beat the waif. She will re-unite with jon/stark family members and all will be well. After they embrace she will stab him/stark members with needle and then it will be revealed that the waif killed Arya and is wearing her face. Many people could have payed the faceless men to assassinate members of the stark family (cercei, ramsay, NightsKing etc).

  131. Clob,

    Don’t worry, I am just saying, not telling you off. I understand it must be pretty hard for book readers to realize what may constitute a spoiler.
    To be honest, I do not only avoid reading spoiler-tagged comments but also comments that are pretty long; thinking that if someone has written so much, there is a strong possibility that something’s there that I shouldn’t read!

  132. Clob,

    I read Fall of Hyperion as well. Started Endymion but they were so distant that I needed to space them out (so I picked up American Gods). Once GoT started, there were affc hints, so I am reading that in between eps.

    I am really conflicted about an adaptation of Hyperion. I heard rumors that Bradley Cooper of all people wanted to produce a mini series on Syfy. To me, that sounds like a train wreck. It’s got all the hurdles of asoiaf adaptation plus all the high tech stuff (spaceships and farcasters). I kinda want it to stay on the page. I will of course watch it if it happens. Side note. Is Brawne Lamia not the spitting image personality of Brienne?

  133. Ginevra,

    I’m taking the discussion of leaked descriptions to the forums, by the way, because we could get in big trouble here for that sort of thing. I’m sorry if I’ve already overstepped. If you’d like to see the descriptions and speculate, click here to go to the forums.
  134. Dee,

    Well, I was away for the first 4 episodes, no way to watch them on time; I had to drive 45 minutes in the desert to get to the nearest 4 star hotel with adequate connection, and I did that on Tuesdays, at the earliest… The things I do for love (of GOT).

  135. luki17:
    This week’s Games of Odds questions from HBO Hungary:

    1) Will Jamie take back Riverrun from Blackfish?

    2) Will Arya get her punishment from the Waif?

    3) Will Sansa’s group get enough soldier to their army?

    (I really don’t like this last one, why is it called Sansa’s group, why not Jon’s?)

    1. Not certain, but I do think in some fashion. Blackfish is a slippery dude and unpredictable, he won’t go without a fight.

    2. I do think that Arya is going to get a good old fashioned arse whoopin’. As she has been. But she is on the run, we already know that. My HOPES is that she offs the Waif. I really dislike that chick.

    3. Yes. But it won’t be enough. It will take the Vale to make the difference.

    I have seen a few people agree with you about using Sansa as appearing to be the leader in the question and find it “not right to do so”. I disagree and I am no huge Sansa fan. But SHE is the one that rallied a gloomy Jon to do this very thing and without a doubt SHE is the Stark in the group. It may be that the show runners are trying to give her something to work with to continue her growth.

    It may have been a better choice if the question simply used both their names. Would that have been less objectionable?

  136. David or Dan’s fave is Sansa (can’t understand why. She doesn’t and can’t do much), hence she hogs all the screentime when she appears next to other major characters. But Jon is like the titular character (the books). He’s one of the famous big trio (Jon, Tyrion, Dany), it’s just jarring that the season which should be big for him due to the major events in his life (death and resurrection) is reduced to one battle and a few moments with hardly any speaking lines. Kit has definitely overexaggerated Jon’s arc in season 6. The showrunners really dropped the ball with his character thisyear I so wish Jon and Sansa would part ways. The sooner the better.

  137. Anyone know if we’re actually getting Arya vs the Waif? (The whole chase scene thing you can see in the trailers)? I had heard that would happen episode 8, but then I can’t see the point of showing Arya this episode if that isn’t gonna happen.

  138. Dee:
    If the Wall falls in episode 10… as per Benjen Stark, the NK will be there, and Bran will be there too ….

    Why would he be looking at visions in episode 10?? Unless the episode starts with a vision/revelation..

    I dunno, so excited and yeah im skipping a few weeks here lols

    I’m thinking that all of Bran’s visions are relevant to defeating the NK. I’m also of the mind that, if the Wall falls, it will be the very last thing that happens this season.

  139. JCDavis,

    They can continue Sansa’s growth (it feels forced now though), but why do they have to do it at the expense of Jon’s growth? His is missing because they focus on Sansa entirely. They decided to neglect any development for Jon. And Sansa is so boring. She can’t take care of herself (like Arya can), always has to rely on others, isn’t smart, isn’t a politician, isn’t a military tactician, isn’t a fighter. What is she? Just a pretty face with a name.

  140. So I think I asked if Arya would be able to take the Waif’s face in an earlier post but I’m not sure if anyone really answered. Is that special magic she doesn’t know yet?

    Some people have mentioned that the Waif made a face when Frey was mentioned…thinking she might be related.

    Could Arya take her face and infiltrate the Frey house and off Walder? That would be cool.

  141. The Winter of Bastardfell:
    I think that Arya will kill the Waif in episode 8 by darkening a room to give herself an advantage that results from her blind training.All that blindness training with the Waif was for a reason!Arya will offer the Waif’s body to Jacquen to pay the death debt to the many-faced god, and then Jacquen will release her from her service/training since it is now obvious that Arya can never be “no one”.As others have noted, the Waif’s hatred of Arya meant that she also failed a test of being “no one”.This is what makes her death a suitable substitute in the eyes of the many-faced god.Another face will be added to the hall.

    I hope you are sooooo right.. bc the alternative is not something Im willing to consider!! I do NOT want Arya to die this season… I really want a reunion with her and the Hound!! Or even Gendry… AND of course her favorite half bro Jon.

  142. Ginevra,

    We have only one other location confirmed for E9 (thanks to set photos). It’s Meereen. Of all the locations to disrupt Bastardbowl they chose this one…Hopefully no Daenerys in this episode. But with Meereen she might be present
  143. Dee,

    It sucked royally!! What took you to China? I lived in Japan for a few years.. LOVED the orient!!

  144. Ice Spider,

    Yeah, I’ve mentioned before that the Waif is totally not qualified to be a faceless man because she has way too much personality too…like Arya.

    Thus Jaqen is allowing this face-off to happen.

  145. Sou:
    The Winter of Bastardfell,

    Not that I object or anything, it is just that if I remember correctly this Sunday’s synopsis states something like “Arya has a plan”. If the waif doesn’t show up to get killed (hopefully) this episode, what kind of plan will Arya work out over a whole episode, in the dark?

    Ooo, maybe Arya’s plan involves deliberately leading the Waif into a trap, perhaps into a darkened trap, certainly a Needled trap. Of course, I also hope her plan involves faces.

  146. Looper:
    Anyone know if we’re actually getting Arya vs the Waif? (The whole chase scene thing you can see in the trailers)? I had heard that would happen episode 8, but then I can’t see the point of showing Arya this episode if that isn’t gonna happen.

    My guess is yes.. but it’s going to be a real guess as to who defeats whom. Im hoping it’s Arya.. I know others are saying the Waif. I dislike her intensely as well. Jealousy is not a character trait I admire much.

  147. Ginevra: Ooo, maybe Arya’s plan involves deliberately leading the Waif into a trap, perhaps into a darkened trap, certainly a Needled trap.Of course, I also hope her plan involves faces.

    Im wondering bout this since we have talked extensively about her NOT having the training to use a face yet. So Im wondering how she would do that since she wasn’t involved in that part of the training?

  148. Some speculation based on the leaks

    it looks like Sansa and Jon do part ways in episode 8. She goes to Littlefinger to fetch the Vale army. It sounds like her little lie comes out because apparently Jon learns about the Vale coming before the battle. Right after the battle/Ramsay’s imprisonment, Jon says ‘you were late/what took you so long?’ to either Sansa or Littlefinger or both. I think their plan is to postpone the attack until the Knights of the Vale come with Sansa and LF, but then Ramsay releases Rickon and all hell breaks loose.
  149. The new Beautiful Death poster for “Blood of My Blood” from Robert Ball. http://beautifuldeath.com/image/145363173928

    “The dead don’t rest.” It’s a nice tribute to Benjen (who did sort of die when he became Coldhands) and an elegant workaround to the problem that no one died in the episode other than the wights and the Mad King in the flashback.

    Also, that fiery mace being shaped like a wolf’s head? Awesome. I’m guessing that it’s just artistic license, but it’s be amazing if that’s actually what it looked like in the show (I can’t get a good look – it’s too dark and Benjen is swinging it too fast). Hey, the guy spent several years beyond the Wall. He needed some kind of hobby. Why not do some arts and crafts with your weapons? 😉

  150. Jumbo,

    I agree with you 100%. It’ll be very difficult for them to redeem how they’ve handled Jon so far. I just hope the last 4 episodes give him enough meat to work with (though it seems like episode 7 will be far more Sansa-centric, for a change).

  151. rhymeswithweak:
    Ice Spider,

    Yeah, I’ve mentioned before that the Waif is totally not qualified to be a faceless man because she has way too much personality too…like Arya.

    Thus Jaqen is allowing this face-off to happen.

    Well Im really wondering what is going on in Jaqen’s mind bc he MUST know that the Waif is really jealous.. he has interrupted her TWICE now doing things Im sure she wasn’t suppose to (the time he walked in and he asked her what she was doing- previous season) and then this season when she threw down the mic (lol) and started using her fists.. the look on Jaqen’s face was like “that wasn’t part of the training you were suppose to be giving”.. could be just my interpretation but my guess is Jaqen really knows the Waif’s true motives and could be seeing who is going to win that battle… but should be interesting to see how it all comes out in the wash.

  152. rhymeswithweak,

    That “Frey” look was because Arya got up from the beatdown. The “Frey” name was during the game of faces. The editing makes it appear that Waif reacted to Frey name but she didn’t. Waif is not related to Walder Frey. Plus, I think the Waif was telling the truth when she said she was an only child.

    The “Waif” is a FM. In fact she became “Jaqen” at the end of season 5. The “new?” Waif is Faceless too because she has the “old” Waif’s face.

    This is my interpretation so feel free to disagree.

  153. ash,

    ut I also agree with Jon, the the lack of any reaction about his death and resurrection. It all happened, and then – nothing.

    That’s been my issue, not that Sansa is or is not leading the charge, but that the show has de-emphasized the resurrection, almost as if it had to happen, but they want to downplay it as much as possible and concentrate on other matters.

    And really at the end of the day, he will or will not be a Targaryen and that does not hinge on him dying and being brought back. Maybe it only served to release him from his NW vows. Although, as has been pointed out, most people will probably not believe it so he may still be throught a deserter.

  154. Dee,

    Yes.. it was amazing.. I was much much younger than I am now … lol and I wish I had taken more advantages of learning the language but I also was raising a baby girl and working so I was limited on my free time to take up a difficult language like Japanese. But oh my… you want to talk about BEAUTIFUL country… it was just amazing. Climbed Mt. Fuji and that was just marvelous. Did you get to site see at all? Curious to what your thoughts were on the culture??

  155. Jared,

    I have to admit the beautiful death releases are touch and go for me as far as liking them but this one is just AMAZING.. thanks for sharing.. I might have to download that and use it as my screen saver on my IPhone… LOVING It..

  156. That big reddit leak from a few months ago also had Sansa arrive at the battle with the Vale army so it adds up.
  157. Ice Spider,

    Ah that sounds amazing!!!!
    Good for you though that must have been a great experience
    I was in the Guangdong province which is close to Hong Kong. We flew in and out of Hong Kong so I got to see some of that (not much though and it’s huge) . We took the ferry to China. The city I was in was not very interesting but stunning landscape and lakes and sites and parks. Not much time to do anything else or head north or anything.
    South China is a bit different from the north but for sure the culture is very different. I felt like I was an alien when I was walking cause I was stared at so much.. I am Mediterranean looking so big change for them plus I wasn’t in a touristic area. It’s also quite obvious how they’re closed out from the rest of the world . Interesting experience for sure.

  158. Ice Spider: Yeah.. but he doesn’t KNOW the real truth either… when Jon and Sansa AND Davos show up to talk about the WW coming you don’t think that will motivate him to join? Im thinking he may after he hears what’s headed his way!! IJS

    Will Brienne be arguing that perspective? Will she be able to convince the Blackfish of that threat and how overwhelming it is? Perhaps.

  159. Tycho Nestoris,

    I think the Waif’s face is available to be used…like Arya’s was when she pulled off a bunch of faces from *jaqen* who died.

    So I think Arya and the Waif are stuck in their training and not fully faceless men.
    The Waif wants in so badly and now Arya actually doesn’t.

  160. So excited about next episode!
    Hoping for some awesome scenes in Riverrun, Braavos and the North! Don’t think Danny will turn up this episode.

    The Greyjoys in Volantis could be a very good dark horse for best scene. Am I the only one really hoping that Yara/Danny could happen?!?!? I think they would make a great match. Danny has stated she will never have children, so there’s no reason for her to keep only having male lovers.

    Crossing my fingers we don’t see Ramsay. It has been great not seeing him for two whole episodes.

  161. Dee,

    Yes I was in Japan back in the mid 80’s… I stuck out like a sore thumb too bc of my blonde hair and blue eyes.. I was there bc of military but once away from the base all the young kids would come up and try and use their English on me.. it was really just an amazing experience. I love traveling and hope to do it again in my twilight years… 😉 If Im still here to do that sort of thing. Thanks for sharing!!!

  162. I agree that Sansa being emphasized more than Jon in a couple episodes feels odd, but it’s because Jon has never really had another character as “main” as Sansa in his storyline since season 1. What would we really want them to have added, just an extra conversation or two for Jon somewhere? I’m still hopeful that the last couple episodes will be massive for him. Sansa needs some moments each season too, she’s one of the main characters of the show whether everyone is happy about that or not. I wouldn’t take any Sansa moments away personally, but I’ll admit I’d have rather had a Jon scene than that redundant dragon speech with Daenerys last week.

  163. Sou:
    Dee,

    Well, I was away for the first 4 episodes, no way to watch them on time; I had to drive 45 minutes in the desert to get to the nearest 4 star hotel with adequate connection, and I did that on Tuesdays, at the earliest… The things I do for love (of GOT).

    I’ll be in a cabin in the mountains for the finale this year. I’ve got my phone’s 3G/LTE hotspot, though, so I’m praying that will be enough to let me stream HBOGo, at least, if we don’t have WiFi.

  164. Ginevra: Will Brienne be arguing that perspective?Will she be able to convince the Blackfish of that threat and how overwhelming it is?Perhaps.

    Ahhhh well I was thinking Sansa would have SOMETHING written for her Uncle to read about the dire circumstances but IDK.. there is so much going on off screen it’s so hard to know how it’s all going to play out.. Im am for sure SUPER PSYCHED for this show though…. same time same place??

  165. Tycho Nestoris,

    I don’t think the Waif became Jaqen in episode 5.10, I think Jaqen was disguised as the Waif in that scene. The actor who plays Jaqen said in an interview that Jaqen is the one who blinded Arya. So the “real” Waif was simply not present in the blinding scene in episode 5.10.
    Plus the Waif this season is clearly the same person as the Waif last season since she has this very personal hatred of Arya that is apparent even in her scenes alone with Jaqen. So it can’t be some fake persona.

    That’s the way I see it anyway. But honestly the way the show has handled the Faceless Men doesn’t really make any sense whatsoever. The fact that there even is someone with Jaqen H’ghar’s face is silly. Why on earth is there a FM re-using that face ? Is it the same FM as the one Arya met in Season 2 ? If not how did he know to use that face and why would he care about using that face ? If it is the same guy, why did he appear as a black guy in episode 5.02, but thereafter only ever appears as Jaqen ? Clearly the show just wanted the actor back.

    And if we’re meant to believe the FM actually use physical faces, then how is it that the faces dissolve when they are removed ? In episode 5.10, Arya removes the face she was using before she jumps on Meryn, and the face just dissolves into thin air. Yet later when she returns to the House, she is holding the face in her hands.
    Then fake Jaqen kills himself (because teaching Arya a lesson is worth a life), and that person mysteriously has like 10 faces on, as well as Arya’s (how ?). Then the Waif is revealed to be “Jaqen” wearing the Waif’s face, but the corpse was initially wearing the Jaqen face, so how is this other guy now wearing it ?

    None of it makes any sense whatsoever, and it all makes my head hurt much more than the Bran-Hodor causal loop time travel business.

  166. Ginevra,

    Yes but

    that was his position in the books as well until Jamie had the conversation with Edmure and then Edmure with the BF re Jamie sending the RR bannermen agains the castle first and razing the castle and killing everyone and sending Edmure’s baby to him via trebuchet

    however, as at least two houses have gone with the BF it might not turn out that way on the show. Based on the snippet from the trailer showing a celebration at the Twins, which I seem to recall involved Lannister men, I’m thinking he capitulates. But where it goes from there? It’s a long journey north and the Twins is between at least one of the major routes from RR to the North

  167. Ginevra: I’ll be in a cabin in the mountains for the finale this year.I’ve got my phone’s 3G/LTE hotspot, though, so I’m praying that will be enough to let me stream HBOGo, at least, if we don’t have WiFi.

    Man… I am going to be in NC for the finale.. I was hoping for a season finale together.. 🙁 was going to ask about it later this weekend… oh fudge.. well that is a bummer..

  168. rhymeswithweak,

    I agree except for the “waif” being in training. The original waif “body” is now Jaqen. Or am I alone on this?

    This new waif body has to be faceless because she’s using a face on the wall, right? As opposed to Arya who’s using her own face. Or is the new waif just further along than Arya but not Faceless?

    This all upsets me because “Jaqen” (and Jon), have both been “resurrected” with little to no cost.

  169. Ice Spider: Well Im really wondering what is going on in Jaqen’s mind bc he MUST know that the Waif is really jealous.. he has interrupted her TWICE now doing things Im sure she wasn’t suppose to

    Plus she made the comment to Jaqen “you promised.” Would No One be allowed to have that much ego that they would expect promises to be made to them or kept? Only someone with a sense of self would expect promises to be made or kept. Not sure if that’s part of the Faceless Man playbook.

  170. A Man Grown:
    I agree that Sansa being emphasized more than Jon in a couple episodes feels odd, but it’s because Jon has never really had another character as “main” as Sansa in his storyline since season 1. What would we really want them to have added, just an extra conversation or two for Jon somewhere? I’m still hopeful that the last couple episodes will be massive for him. Sansa needs some moments each season too, she’s one of the main characters of the show whether everyone is happy about that or not. I wouldn’t take any Sansa moments away personally, but I’ll admit I’d have rather had a Jon scene than that redundant dragon speech with Daenerys last week.

    I agree.. I think it will be a great balance once the season is over.. I think for us JS fans it’s been kinda slow for him this season so far BUT Im guessing (and hoping) the last two episodes will be epic for him and his arc.. crossing fingers and saying prayers.

  171. If it’s “Sansa’s group,” shouldn’t we be getting “The Battle of the Bitches”?

  172. Thronetender: Plus she made the comment to Jaqen “you promised.”Would No One be allowed to have that much ego that they would expect promises to be made to them or kept?Only someone with a sense of self would expect promises to be made or kept. Not sure if that’s part of the Faceless Man playbook.

    Well I find that very interesting bc of course Jaqen told Arya that No-one would ask questions so it makes sense to me that No-one would also NOT want to seek revenge on someone esp since Arya hasn’t really done anything AGAINST the waif to deserve that kind of reaction from her? I mean why so much hate? She obviously has issues and that is just not characteristically something No-one should have. I just have to trust that Jaqen KNOWS all of this and see’s past it.. just wondering why he’s allowing the Waif so much leniency? Just not sure it’s all so black and white here.. lol pun intended.

  173. Ginevra,

    LOL And if it’s Sansa’s group then why is Jon positioned in the middle in the promo still and in the preview?

  174. I really don’t get what all the fuss is about the “battle of the bastards” as an episode title. It was never a fan invention, it came directly from
    set reports during filming in saintfield so it’s likely source was from the script/ production crew.

  175. rhymeswithweak:
    So I think I asked if Arya would be able to take the Waif’s face in an earlier post but I’m not sure if anyone really answered. Is that special magic she doesn’t know yet?

    Some people have mentioned that the Waif made a face when Frey was mentioned…thinking she might be related.

    Could Arya take her face and infiltrate the Frey house and off Walder? That would be cool.

    I desperately want Arya to either take faces with her from the Hall or to take the secret of making faces with her, to Westeros, preferably the latter. We do not know if she knows the secret yet. Jaqen mentioned a couple of episodes how that secret had been passed down, which to me hinted that we might get to see the secret shared with Arya, but not that is looking less and less likely.

    I rewatched the Frey scene, and it was actually two separate scenes spliced together: one with both the Waif and Arya standing and fighting and one with both sitting and discussing the list. Arya says Frey in the sitting scene but the Waif turns in the standing scene, so I doubt it means anything, after all. Unfortunately.

  176. Markus Stark,

    Those questions make a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately, I am now more confused than before and yes, Bran/Hodor is easier to piece together than these assassins.

  177. Apollo,

    Ok, it came from the script. No big surprise if that’s the title. Not sure how that invalidates the reasons people don’t like it !
    People aren’t saying it’s a fan invention, they’re saying it sounds like one. In other words, some think it sounds silly as an official title.

    At the end of the day it’s all subjective, and the title isn’t really important, but some titles are definitely more badass than others.
    “Battle of the Bastards” just sounds weird to me as an official title. That’s just this man’s opinion about the title of one episode in a fantasy series. It’s not a big deal if some people don’t share your appreciation of it, let it go mate.

  178. I’m looking forward to see Simon Fraser, Lord Lovat and Jonathan (Frank) “Black Jack” Randall on this episode. And I hope that Jaimie is making a great deal!

  179. Markus Stark:
    Tycho Nestoris,

    I don’t think the Waif became Jaqen in episode 5.10, I think Jaqen was disguised as the Waif in that scene. The actor who plays Jaqen said in an interview that Jaqen is the one who blinded Arya. So the “real” Waif was simply not present in the blinding scene in episode 5.10.
    Plus the Waif this season is clearly the same person as the Waif last season since she has this very personal hatred of Arya that is apparent even in her scenes alone with Jaqen. So it can’t be some fake persona.

    I agree the Waif is the same person bc she has the same hatred.

    That’s the way I see it anyway. But honestly the way the show has handled the Faceless Men doesn’t really make any sense whatsoever. The fact that there even is someone with Jaqen H’ghar’s face is silly. Why on earth is there a FM re-using that face ? Is it the same FM as the one Arya met in Season 2 ? If not how did he know to use that face and why would he care about using that face ? If it is the same guy, why did he appear as a black guy in episode 5.02, but thereafter only ever appears as Jaqen ? Clearly the show just wanted the actor back.

    I’m guessing they used a different person to answer the door just to prove the ability of the FM to be anyone. At least that is my guess… might have been too easy to have Jaqen answer the door .. it could have been a test to see if Arya was really serious too… make her think it was someone different so that she had to really think long and hard if she wanted to do that sort of training. Just guessing here. So your thoughts would be nice.

    Secondly Im guessing they use Jaqen’s as the main face bc he may be training both Arya and the Waif so perhaps they want to keep it simple for viewers reasons but in reality since it seems that both of them are in training (obviously the Waif is further along in hers) and perhaps that is the face they use for all the trainee’s? Again just speculation.

    And if we’re meant to believe the FM actually use physical faces, then how is it that the faces dissolve when they are removed ? In episode 5.10, Arya removes the face she was using before she jumps on Meryn, and the face just dissolves into thin air. Yet later when she returns to the House, she is holding the face in her hands.
    Then fake Jaqen kills himself (because teaching Arya a lesson is worth a life), and that person mysteriously has like 10 faces on, as well as Arya’s (how ?). Then the Waif is revealed to be “Jaqen” wearing the Waif’s face, but the corpse was initially wearing the Jaqen face, so how is this other guy now wearing it ?

    Im guessing this is part of the training to put away the face so fast like magicians use to deceive ppl by quick of hand movements.. pure speculation.. what do you think?

    None of it makes any sense whatsoever, and it all makes my head hurt much more than the Bran-Hodor causal loop time travel business.

  180. Ginevra,

    I’m wondering… when she killed Meryn Trant didn’t she use a face? So wouldn’t that mean she knows that secret? How would she have used a face to fool him?

  181. Markus Stark,

    Plenty of people here and elsewhere were dismissing the title as either fan fiction or sounding like fan fiction. And if it’s really no big deal then let’s move on, people.

  182. Dee:
    Ginevra,

    Agreed
    Revealing RLJ doesn’t have much to do with how to defeat the NK though

    Well, I think it has everything to do with that. Jon is a prince. Jon is *the* prince. Of course, that gets a lot into book stuff which I’ll deliberately avoid, but even Show!Mel has called Jon the prince who was promised, and she doesn’t have any reason in the world to think he’s a prince. Mel believes (and lots of prophecies say) that this prince who was promised will be the one to defeat the Others and end the Long Night forever and that he’ll fight with Lightbringer. I’m assuming that once Jon knows who he is, he’ll embrace his destiny and find out how to defeat the NK using all of the prophecies for TPTWP and for Azor Ahai Reborn. There are many, and they will be helpful, I hope. Only by discovering his beginnings can he find and embrace his destiny.

  183. Ice Spider,

    It’s hard to tell your replies from Markus’ when you italicize both. I only say this because I want to read your opinion.

  184. Clob: I’ve read just about everything by Gaiman and Simmons.They’re both in my top 5 authors.Simmons could be my favorite.Have you read just Hyperion or the entire Hyperion Cantos?If that could get made into a movie or tv series I would be thrilled!I might have enjoyed his Illium/Olympos set even more though.That’s some brilliant stuff.

    Come here. Let me just pin this Medal of Excellent Taste on you. 🙂

    Joking aside, Simmons is a master. His Hyperion Cantos may just be my favorite SF saga.

  185. Tycho Nestoris,

    I know.. I was trying to Italicize MY remarks bc I thought he used regular font.. then after all of my typing I posted and realized he used Italicized.. Arrrrrrrrrrgh…. foiled again.. sorry.. Except for the first response in which I agreed that the Waif was the same person my other remarks start off with “IM GUESSING”.. so hopefully that helps?

  186. Ice Spider:
    Ginevra,

    I’m wondering… when she killed Meryn Trant didn’t she use a face? So wouldn’t that mean she knows that secret? How would she have used a face to fool him?

    She stole that face last season from the Hall of Faces. So she definitely knows how to apply a face once that face is made, but the secret lies in taking the face – or so I assume. She could steal some more faces, if only she had access, but I think it would be better for her to know the secret of taking faces because then she could become her enemies, as she kills them.

  187. Ginevra: She stole that face last season from the Hall of Faces.So she definitely knows how to apply a face once that face is made, but the secret lies in taking the face – or so I assume.She could steal some more faces, if only she had access, but I think it would be better for her to know the secret of taking faces because then she could become her enemies, as she kills them.

    Yes… I understand.. you mean the art of pealing the face off? It looked as if we were getting a preview (sneak peak) last episode bc Jaqen was taking one off as the Waif asked to get her revenge. Interested in hearing your opinion on what your take is on that whole deal? Does Jaqen KNOW the Waif is also not worthy? Thus the face-off with Arya? I just can’t believe he doesn’t know her true motives? Curious??

  188. Ice Spider,

    I have been there! Sometimes I get crazy using my phone and start editing with italics or adding spoiler tags and the timer is counting down…then all hell breaks loose and I’m like fukit. I can see now that you replied directly below each paragraph of Markus’.

    I think some of these decisions (like Jaqen being the trainer) were intended to simplify but after 5.10 really caused confusion (to me). I should go back and watch because I don’t remember the face dissolving after the Meryn kill. I am sure it happened cause you guys remember it, I just don’t remember it. I do remember Arya sneaking back in to replace the face.

  189. Ice Spider:
    Tycho Nestoris,

    I know..I was trying to Italicize MY remarks bc I thought he used regular font.. then after all of my typing I posted and realized he used Italicized..

    Everything inside “blockquote” gets italicized, whether it was originally or not. So when you select to quote, that’ll happen.

  190. Ice Spider: Yes… I understand.. you mean the art of pealing the face off? It looked as if we were getting a preview (sneak peak) last episode bc Jaqen was taking one off as the Waif asked to get her revenge. Interested in hearing your opinion on what your take is on that whole deal? Does Jaqen KNOW the Waif is also not worthy? Thus the face-off with Arya? I just can’t believe he doesn’t know her true motives? Curious??

    So the Waif did get to see the peeling, but not Arya last episode. And I suspect there is some magic applied to the process that we didn’t see, as well, but I could be wrong.

    A couple of episodes back, Jaqen said, “One way or another, a face will be added to the Hall.” Or something very similar. The implication was Lady Crane or Arya, but I think he might have meant Lady Crane or Arya *or* the Waif. I’m hoping he’d be happy with the Waif’s face. So this whole ordeal wasn’t just a test for Arya but also a test for the Waif. Arya has failed and cannot be a FM, but I think he’ll let her live if she bests the Waif. And I’m hoping that he’ll be even more magnanimous than that and throw some faces (or the secret) her way.

  191. Faye Marsay cracked the FM men conundrum.

    Also, this Kit shaving thing is jarring to me. He looks like of like Brandon Lee/The Crow. Wait, Jon is a Crow too!

  192. Ice Spider: Yes… I understand.. you mean the art of pealing the face off? It looked as if we were getting a preview (sneak peak) last episode bc Jaqen was taking one off as the Waif asked to get her revenge. Interested in hearing your opinion on what your take is on that whole deal? Does Jaqen KNOW the Waif is also not worthy? Thus the face-off with Arya? I just can’t believe he doesn’t know her true motives? Curious??

    I think we can be pretty sure Arya can peel off a face, in fact I’m pretty sure we’ve just recently seen the face she’s going to take.

  193. Tycho Nestoris:
    Ice Spider,

    I have been there! Sometimes I get crazy using my phone and start editing with italics or adding spoiler tags and the timer is counting down…then all hell breaks loose and I’m like fukit. I can see now that you replied directly below each paragraph of Markus’.

    I think some of these decisions (like Jaqen being the trainer) were intended to simplify but after 5.10 really caused confusion (to me). I should go back and watch because I don’t remember the face dissolving after the Meryn kill. I am sure it happened cause you guys remember it, I just don’t remember it. I do remember Arya sneaking back in to replace the face.

    Well my thoughts on that is she was able to put the face away (slight of hand movement) and that we can’t see it bc she is so quick … I mean that can only be the only plausible explanation?? Otherwise how does one dissolve a real face only to make it appear again? Idk..that is part of the story that we may never get answered… like so many other q’s … just goes into a black hole to never be resolved. Part of this show that frustrates me is that they streamline SO MUCH we don’t always get the details answered and since I have only read three of the books Im not sure if its discussed in the books? Im guessing its not since I think Ginevra read the books so she would know for sure and she isn’t sure about that part either (I think)..

  194. The Night’s Jester,

    I don’t want to get too excited but

    would taking Catelyn’s face be too much? I love LSH but I think Arya masquerading as LSH might appeal to me more. I have seen this *theory* mentioned a couple times already

    Ice Spider,
    Yeah, I think Arya’s story in the show is in WoW territory (as well as heavily adapted).

  195. Ginevra: So the Waif did get to see the peeling, but not Arya last episode.And I suspect there is some magic applied to the process that we didn’t see, as well, but I could be wrong.

    A couple of episodes back, Jaqen said, “One way or another, a face will be added to the Hall.”Or something very similar.The implication was Lady Crane or Arya, but I think he might have meant Lady Crane or Arya *or* the Waif.I’m hoping he’d be happy with the Waif’s face.So this whole ordeal wasn’t just a test for Arya but also a test for the Waif.Arya has failed and cannot be a FM, but I think he’ll let her live if she bests the Waif.And I’m hoping that he’ll be even more magnanimous than that and throw some faces (or the secret) her way.

    YES YES and YES… at least that is my guess too.. Jaqen is testing BOTH of them to see who will win and maybe whomever the victor is (Arya let’s hope) she will get the secret given to her as a parting gift??? Lol… idk.. just really going to be exciting to see how it all plays out.

  196. The Winter of Bastardfell:
    I think that Arya will kill the Waif in episode 8 by darkening a room to give herself an advantage that results from her blind training.All that blindness training with the Waif was for a reason!Arya will offer the Waif’s body to Jacquen to pay the death debt to the many-faced god, and then Jacquen will release her from her service/training since it is now obvious that Arya can never be “no one”.As others have noted, the Waif’s hatred of Arya meant that she also failed a test of being “no one”.This is what makes her death a suitable substitute in the eyes of the many-faced god.Another face will be added to the hall.

    This makes the most sense.

  197. Tycho Nestoris:
    The Night’s Jester,

    I don’t want to get too excited but

    Ice Spider,
    Yeah, I think Arya’s story in the show is in WoW territory (as well as heavily adapted).

    Wooooooooooah… that would be pretty awesome.. not only would

    LSH fans get what they have been asking for (kinda).. but that would FREAK out some folks back in Frey country too!! I would LOVE that.. Take out some Freys with Cat’s face on..

    .

  198. hexonx,

    You’re right it’s inverse. Jon was an crow and died. Brandon died and turned into a crow. Also, RIP Brandon. Still, a very sad story.

  199. Mihnea:
    Markus Stark,

    Do you think that

    Ellaria and the SS will be easily convinced to join Dany’s forces? Or will she have to conquer Dorne as well? I’m surprised they havent’ declared for her already since they both despise the Lannisters and she can also legitimise one of Oberyn’s daughters. Also if Olenna is visiting Dorne does that mean that Marge will bite the dust or is she simply representing the crown in some sort of peace negotiations?
  200. hexonx: Interesting that their belts are different and tied off on opposite sides.

    Well, was a Crow. ?

    Would you mind elaborating on that? Spoilery coding if need be? Im curious as to what this means.. 😉 Salivating here!!

  201. Myrmidon: Do you think that

    I think Dany

    will land in Dorne and NOT KL. I think they will see the dragons and the huge army she has and they will be like Eff it.. we are with her!! Lol.. but just guessing here.

    .

  202. I’m not sure why people are so upset with the Jon/Sansa dynamic. Personally, Jon taking the back seat IS a form of character development in my opinion – you don’t need to have the most dialogue to be developing.

    Regarding all of the resurrection discussion (or lack thereof), I think it makes sense that they haven’t focused on it for a few reasons. First of all, it’s a TON to process, even for Mel, not just Jon. There can’t be any huge resolution/conversation of much substance when no one in the room really knows what to make of if. It needs time to marinate. Second, Jon is clearly going to play an increasingly pivotal role in the wars to come. His importance is inherently going to lead to him asking the, “why me” questions. We have another ~2 seasons; it’s more crucial that he has these introspective scenes closer to the climax of the series.

    Third, Sansa is great this season. Jon has always been one of the primary characters of the show since season 1, and given that won’t likely change in seasons 7/8, I think it’s okay for him to take a back seat for now. Stepping back from things is definitely what I would want to do if I was just murdered. It seems like the proper character choice, and a smart choice for the series as a whole. Just one man’s opinion ?

  203. Ice Spider,

    No spoilers. Just though it was interesting. But the more I look at it, it appears Faye’s belt just got turned inside out a little. It actually appears to be the same belt. Since it is an “off-camera” pic I’m sure the belts looked the same during filming.

  204. hexonx:
    Ice Spider,

    No spoilers.Just though it was interesting.But the more I look at it, it appears Faye’s belt just got turned inside out a little.It actually appears to be the same belt.Since it is an “off-camera” pic I’m sure the belts looked the same during filming.

    Okie… I was thinking there was some intricate storyline going on there… lol.. just a costume malfunction?

  205. Markus Stark,

    Because its magic. Keep in mind the only person we actually see on the show taking a shit is Tywin, and thats only because he is being murdered by his son. Its safe to assume that all of these characters poop at least every couple of days, take a piss every once in a while etc, but for the sake of the story, they dont show every little thing, yet Im confident that all of these characters shit etc. Obvious I know. Same thing concerning the faceless men, the face masks yada yada. Its not important for the story development.

  206. Ice Spider,

    I totally agree, Dany will most probably land there and then head to the crownlands. That could happen but i do think Varys will be the one to convince them ,let’s not forget that the Dornish were never conquered by the Targs so they are not easily intimidated by dragons and armies.
  207. eejazz:
    I’m not sure why people are so upset with the Jon/Sansa dynamic. Personally, Jon taking the back seat IS a form of character development in my opinion – you don’t need to have the most dialogue to be developing.

    Regarding all of the resurrection discussion (or lack thereof), I think it makes sense that they haven’t focused on it for a few reasons. First of all, it’s a TON to process, even for Mel, not just Jon. There can’t be any huge resolution/conversation of much substance when no one in the room really knows what to make of if. It needs time to marinate. Second, Jon is clearly going to play an increasingly pivotal role in the wars to come. His importance is inherently going to lead to him asking the, “why me” questions. We have another ~2 seasons; it’s more crucial that he has these introspective scenes closer to the climax of the series.

    Third, Sansa is great this season. Jon has always been one of the primary characters of the show since season 1, and given that won’t likely change in seasons 7/8, I think it’s okay for him to take a back seat for now. Stepping back from things is definitely what I would want to do if I was just murdered. It seems like the proper character choice, and a smart choice for the series as a whole. Just one man’s opinion

    but then why are they wasting so much time with dany this season so far, its like most of her scenes get repeated all the time, doing speeches, burning things down…

  208. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Maybe it’s silly of me, but I’d love for Dany to land on Dragonstone, first…even if it’s just a pit-stop.

    Hopefully she gets the memo about Dragonglass as we know Stannis said there was a lot at Dragonstone. Can you imagine the Unsullied with Dragonglass spears and the Dothraki with Dragonglass arrows?

  209. Ice Spider,

    I don’t think so.
    I truly think D&D are doing everything they can to end Dorne as fast as they can.
    And remember, Bryan Cogman confirmed on the DVD release that Dorne (as late as s4) was never in their plan, and it was only when he pitched the idea of Jamie going there, that it happened. I don’t think it will play a pivotal role such as being the landing ground for Dany

  210. HelloThere,

    If that’s the case then why send Varys there in the first place? Why waste precious screentime and have Varys visit Dorne?
  211. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    Well, we do know the Blackfish took at least one piss. ?

    Ice Spider,

    Maybe it’s silly of me, but I’d love for Dany to land on Dragonstone, first…even if it’s just a pit-stop.

    Well I don’t know what would be there (theres no army there or anyone of interest as far as I know) for her except the history of it, but that could be interesting but like I said in another post

    I’m guessing Dorne so they can tie that part of the story up… I just can’t see how Dorne can be left out of the end war? And this would give the SS the opportunity to get back at the Lannisters in force..

    .

  212. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    Thanks for the irrelevant comment. I know some people love to talk about shit, but that really was an unnecessary and pointless digression, mate.

    Anyway, I know it’s magic. As you can tell many of us are simply trying to understand some of what’s going on, in particular with respect to the Waif. We want to understand what’s going on with that character and her irrational hatred of Arya, and if the Waif in Season 5 is the same person as the Waif in Season 6.
    If that conversation doesn’t interest you, then don’t participate in it. If you aren’t interested in thinking about things and discussing them with the community, and would rather just accept everything you see on screen, then don’t bother to stick your nose in conversations that don’t appeal to you. It’s really simple.

    I also don’t subscribe to the absurd view that if something isn’t important for the story development then it’s perfectly acceptable for it to be nonsensical.

  213. taim: but then why are they wasting so much time with dany this season so far, its like most of her scenes get repeated all the time, doing speeches, burning things down…

    “Wasting time” I guess is subjective and it’s not like the speech scene was all that long. While her scenes may be similar to scenes from previous seasons they have achieved different goals.

  214. HelloThere:
    Ice Spider,

    I don’t think so.
    I truly think D&D are doing everything they can to end Dorne as fast as they can.
    And remember, Bryan Cogman confirmed on the DVD release that Dorne (as late as s4) was never in their plan, and it was only when he pitched the idea of Jamie going there, that it happened.I don’t think it will play a pivotal role such as being the landing ground for Dany

    Okie.. thanks for that inside info. I obviously didn’t know about that conversation Cogman had. I just thought that since Dorne is part of the seven Kingdoms that they would have a pivotal role in the war… so you don’t think they get involved at all? So where does Dany land then? KL? I suppose depending on how long it takes her to actually head out to Westeros would determine where she lands? Idk.. this is part of the story Im clueless on … all I want is a climatic landing.. I mean chaos and all hell breaking loose when the people see her dragons flying overhead and see all of her ships… I hope it’s EPIC.

  215. Myrmidon,

    Didn’t know that… I know there is some massive spoiler leaks, but im trying hard (and believe me its hard..) to stay away from them
  216. eejazz:
    I’m not sure why people are so upset with the Jon/Sansa dynamic. Personally, Jon taking the back seat IS a form of character development in my opinion – you don’t need to have the most dialogue to be developing.

    Regarding all of the resurrection discussion (or lack thereof), I think it makes sense that they haven’t focused on it for a few reasons. First of all, it’s a TON to process, even for Mel, not just Jon. There can’t be any huge resolution/conversation of much substance when no one in the room really knows what to make of if. It needs time to marinate. Second, Jon is clearly going to play an increasingly pivotal role in the wars to come. His importance is inherently going to lead to him asking the, “why me” questions. We have another ~2 seasons; it’s more crucial that he has these introspective scenes closer to the climax of the series.

    Third, Sansa is great this season. Jon has always been one of the primary characters of the show since season 1, and given that won’t likely change in seasons 7/8, I think it’s okay for him to take a back seat for now. Stepping back from things is definitely what I would want to do if I was just murdered. It seems like the proper character choice, and a smart choice for the series as a whole. Just one man’s opinion ?

    Agreed. I don’t get why it can’t be a big season for Sansa AND Jon. Sure, we’ve not really gone into his post resurrection stuff in any great detail but he’s got a pretty huge few eps coming up and there’s been a lot of other stuff going down.

    Besides, moaning about Jon taking a back seat to Sansa on the basis of one shared scene (when in fact his scenes in S6 have been more extensive than Sansas), one photo and a 30sec trailer from next Sunday’s episode is a bit bizarre IMO.

  217. Ice Spider,

    I think there is a good chance Dany will land in Dorne. Dorne was poorly received last year, but if they were going to write it off as a failed experiment it would have made a lot more sense for Doran to execute Ellaria and the Sand Snakes. Then everything could have been more or less back to normal, and you could have pretty much ignored it from then on in. Dorne will definitely play a part, albeit a small one, but a part nonetheless.

  218. Ice Spider: Okie.. thanks for that inside info. I obviously didn’t know about that conversation Cogman had. I just thought that since Dorne is part of the seven Kingdoms that they would have a pivotal role in the war… so you don’t think they get involved at all? So where does Dany land then? KL? I suppose depending on how long it takes her to actually head out to Westeros would determine where she lands? Idk.. this is part of the story Im clueless on … all I want is a climatic landing.. I mean chaos and all hell breaking loose when the people see her dragons flying overhead and see all of her ships… I hope it’s EPIC.

    I’m not saying it won’t happen in the show but I think it’s much more likely Dany lands in Dorne in the books, where Dorne is much more involved in the story than it is in the show.

  219. hexonx: Hopefully she gets the memo about Dragonglass as we know Stannis said there was a lot at Dragonstone.Can you imagine the Unsullied with Dragonglass spears and the Dothraki with Dragonglass arrows?

    I wasn’t even thinking in those terms, just that I’d like her to stop by Dragonstone, since that’s where Aegon the Conquerer first landed, and it’s also where she was born. Now that you mention it, though, even if she doesn’t get the dragonglass memo, at first, it would be pretty easy for her to get back and forth from dragonstone if she’s flying, so she could always go back and get some. I love the thought of the Unsullied having dragonglass spears and arrows.

  220. taim: but then why are they wasting so much time with dany this season so far, its like most of her scenes get repeated all the time, doing speeches, burning things down…

    1) they’ve got to get her out of Essos
    2) she doesn’t have anyone by her side to steal the spotlight
    3) she’s feeling empowered, not suffering some resurrection-induced existential crisis

    I agree her story has been a little redundant though. I’m optimistic that were working toward some big changes starting with S7

  221. Knight of the Walkers:
    Ice Spider,

    I think there is a good chance Dany will land in Dorne. Dorne was poorly received last year, but if they were going to write it off as a failed experiment it would have made a lot more sense for Doran to execute Ellaria and the Sand Snakes. Then everything could have been more or less back to normal, and you could have pretty much ignored it from then on in. Dorne will definitely play a part, albeit a small one, but a part nonetheless.

    Lol.. okie.. . I was thinking it HAS to have some kind of role.. after all they are one of the seven kingdoms.. even it’s been a small kingdom and not gotten a lot of screen time.. anyway my thoughts were it makes more sense for her to land there but Im just speculating and really don’t know. Either way like I said in post above this one. I just want it to be EPIC… show of force. See me roar kind of moment.. lol even if it has to be Drogon roaring.. and wouldn’t it be cool if she RODE a dragon into the place she lands?

  222. Nymeria Warrior Queen: I’d like her to stop by Dragonstone, since that’s where Aegon the Conquerer first landed, and it’s also where she was born.

    Agreed. It would be a nice moment in that regard as well. After all, that is why she is known as “Stormborn.” So it would work in both an abstract way and a practical way if she landed at Dragonstone.

  223. Speculation about Jon’s episode

    An advantage of merging Benjen with Coldhands is he can get through the Wall the way Sam did so presumably he can take Bran and Meera to Winterfell? What if they get to Winterfell after the battle, Bran plugs into the old tree and takes Jon with him to the Tower of Joy for part 2. It just needs an outside setting up shot and the rest would have been filmed on an inside set. It would be amazing for Jon to actually see it rather than be told about it and know beyond doubt.

    Re Jon/Sansa
    While this season has been terrific and exciting, they missed the boat a bit having got a semi-dream team together – Jon, Sansa, Davos, Mel, Brienne, Pod, Tormund, Edd – and not had a few more discussions about various things. Those characters know a lot!

  224. Mihnea:
    Markus Stark,

    Apollo:
    I really don’t get what all the fuss is about the “battle of the bastards” as an episode title. It was never a fan invention, it came directly from
    set reports during filming in saintfield so it’s likely source was from the script/ production crew.

    I thought the set leaks were calling it “The Battle of the Six Armies” as a play on the similar LOTR title. It was only when that leaked out that fans came out with “BastardBowl,” “SnowBowl,” and “Battle of the Bastards” to my recollection.

  225. Myrmidon,

    I’m just going to respond to this because it keeps popping up. We NEVER had any on-set confirmation that Varys

    (or Olenna) goes to Dorne! At all! The actors stayed at the same hotel as the Dorne cast at the same time, but that proves absolutely nothing since the area served as multiple locations.
  226. Nymeria Warrior Queen: I love the thought of the Unsullied having dragonglass spears and arrows.

    LOL at this point I love the thought of ANYone having access to dragonglass anything, spears, arrows, sword tips, don’t care, just get that stuff distributed.

    After seeing Randyll and Dickon Tarly last week, and how they scoffed at the idea of White Walkers, I started wondering just how far south the WW would get. I’d love to see an army of wights chasing Dickon through those lavish halls. Well, maybe not the halls, because that would mean Sam’s mother and sister would be in mortal danger and I liked them. But I sure would love to see a WW on an Undead horse shrieking at old Randyll. Alas, probably won’t happen, but still, how far south does anyone think they’ll get?

  227. Lol I pop on to see what’s what and I see mention of filming spoilers n such. I love book spoilers. But hate the other. It spoils both, effectively.

    Early in season 2 I foolishly googled Robb and spoiled myself on his death. Gah!! It hurt cos I was spoiled but also cos he was ma totes fave. The King in the Effing North!!! Vengeance was on my mind n he was on path to honour his father EPIC STYLE. Sigh. I was a sweet summer child.

    I banned myself from the Internets for got and grrm stuff until all the books were done!! It was a mission but I did it. Then found WiC n APoIaF n ALL the rest, n the rest (wot) is history. Just like many others I suppose.

    My point was 😛 I gonna hide more than usual i thinks. Wanna max my enjoyment of this remaining roller coaster oh em gee I’m so fucking hyped and reading u lot doesn’t help 😀

    Except Sundays ofc nowt like reading a manic chat after the show lol 🙂 bit drunk bored of typing now HUGS

  228. Thronetender: After seeing Randyll and Dickon Tarly last week, and how they scoffed at the idea of White Walkers, I started wondering just how far south the WW would get. I’d love to see an army of wights chasing Dickon through those lavish halls. Well, maybe not the halls, because that would mean Sam’s mother and sister would be in mortal danger and I liked them. But I sure would love to see a WW on an Undead horse shrieking at old Randyll. Alas, probably won’t happen, but still, how far south does anyone think they’ll get?

    That would be nice as I would love to see Dickon’s jaw drop at the site of a White Walker. But realistically if they get that far south I think that would mean the “good guys” lost. I see them maybe getting to King’s Landing at the furthest.

  229. I’m keeping the faith that there IS a big episode for Jon that isn’t the battle. Kit never said Hardhome was a huge episode for him, not did he say season 5 was huge for him. After lying that much and seemingly miserable about it, I don’t think he’s misdirecting again.

    I think there WILL be some big character moments for Jon. Even though Sansa is taking the lead, Jon is still leading the army. The North isn’t going to let Jon sit around quietly. If anything, they’ll demand to hear from him. And there will be big decisions to be made – and I’m just assuming as I think we all are that Jon and co. win the battle, not Ramsay – both before and after the battle. I don’t think Sansa is going to make them all. I think she wants to be heard, but I don’t believe she expects to be queen.

    In the books, Jon is Robb’s heir. I think the show won’t or CAN’T diverge that dramatically, especially since Sansa DOESN’T marry Ramsay in the books. If there’s a Warden in the North at the end of this, it’s going to be Jon. Plus with Jon being King Crow, etc, who knows, he could be King in the North? Holy hell I just excited myself beyond belief.

    I still think the TOJ reveal and Jon’s big episode has to be episode 10. I just don’t believe Kit is talking about a battle. He’s done those before – vs. Wildlings + Hardhome. He’s never portrayed those the way he’s talked about this season.

  230. If Theon is in bravos he better explain what he did faster than he did to Sansa because if Arya sees him he might be dead before he gets a chance to explain!

  231. Thronetender,

    Well they will most definitely reach Harrenhal IMO. I do believe the rest of Westeros will begin taking the WW threat seriously once the Northern front collapses and they (WW) cross the Twins.

  232. I put this comment in the earlier thread about Episode 7, but as I was commenter #2,478 or so, I’ve posted it here as I’d like to see WotW thoughts about this. My post has to do with last year’s photos of Maisie’s filming

    the Braavos chase scenes. She’s shown wearing the outfit shown in these photos when she’s in the water (in Northern Ireland). In the shots of her running from the Waif, however, (filmed in Spain) she’s wearing a loose gray shirt. The Waif looks predictably “Waify,” but she’s brandishing a bloody knife. Whose blood is it?
    As Episode 8’s title appears to have been confirmed as “No One” and as Mark Mylod is the director, could we be seeing Arya’s Waif confrontation (and/or her [insert fingers-crossed emoji here] escape from Braavos in Episodes 7 and 8?
  233. Tycho Nestoris,

    Yes, yes I am. Is it really crucial to the storyline the inner workings of how the faceless men work? Nit picky to the extreme. Im sure there can be an entire HBO series dedicated to just that.

  234. Sou:
    The Winter of Bastardfell,

    Not that I object or anything, it is just that if I remember correctly this Sunday’s synopsis states something like “Arya has a plan”. If the waif doesn’t show up to get killed (hopefully) this episode, what kind of plan will Arya work out over a whole episode, in the dark?

    Here’s the plan. Arya beats the Waif, and takes her face (because the Waif is wearing one, just like suicide Ja’qen was). She then goes back and offs the current Ja’qen so that no one can give the order to put a hit out on her for leaving. It’s the Waif done it!

    Just kidding. But it is a “plan” of sorts. ?

  235. Laura:
    I thought the set leaks were calling it “The Battle of the Six Armies” as a play on the similar LOTR title. It was only when that leaked out that fans came out with “BastardBowl,” “SnowBowl,” and “Battle of the Bastards” to my recollection.

    I think that was another term doing the rounds. But seeing as BOTB is likely the episode title, it stands to reason that this indeed came directly from production info.

  236. Why not call the episode “Winterfell”, much like Blackwater, instead of something with Bastard in it? I don’t mind either way. Just saying.

  237. Markus Stark,

    “But honestly the way the show has handled the Faceless Men doesn’t really make any sense whatsoever. The fact that there even is someone with Jaqen H’ghar’s face is silly. Why on earth is there a FM re-using that face ? Is it the same FM as the one Arya met in Season 2 ? If not how did he know to use that face and why would he care about using that face ? If it is the same guy, why did he appear as a black guy in episode 5.02, but thereafter only ever appears as Jaqen ? … And if we’re meant to believe the FM actually use physical faces, then how is it that the faces dissolve when they are removed ? In episode 5.10, Arya removes the face she was using before she jumps on Meryn, and the face just dissolves into thin air. Yet later when she returns to the House, she is holding the face in her hands. … None of it makes any sense whatsoever, and it all makes my head hurt much more than the Bran-Hodor causal loop time travel business.”

    Take it easy, its all in jest. After reading through all of that quoted above, I just frankly think you are overthinking it. Its not that delving into the history or workings of the faceless men, or other groups isnt interesting, its just that there is artistic and creative license in making the TV show, and naturally there are going to be some things, that if you try to approach it from a scientific point of view, arent going to make sense.

  238. Nadia,

    I think the only way Jon ends up Warden of the North is if all the other Starks die. Sure, he could be acting Warder of the North until Rickon comes of age, should Rickon survive, but we also now know Bran will probably be heading back south of the Wall, and if he survives, he’ll be heir to Winterfell and Warden of the North. Moreover,

    Robb names Jon his heir because he thinks Bran and Rickon are dead, Arya’s likely dead, and Sansa is basically a captive of the Lannisters.
  239. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    It’s fine if you don’t think it’s crucial. Personally, I do.
    It’s not like I am asking how Brienne rode through leagues of enemy territory in the snow. Jaqen hints at a secret to changing faces in season 6. When he leaves Arya at Harrenhall he says something similar as well. I don’t find it nit picky at all. Every character has to eat. Not every character can change their face.

  240. Tycho Nestoris,

    Fair enough 🙂 You just seemed to be really trying to figure it out, and I thought that it was probably just glossed over for the sake of the show. GRRM probably has a very good explanation, but the way the show went about showing some of those scenes, that you discussed, they left things a mess when left to scrutiny.

  241. HelloThere: I think this episode will probably feature Sansa more than Jon….

    My bet is that both will be prominent, as both will have to justify actions that have antagonized people that they want as allies.

    Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface: Im sure there can be an entire HBO series dedicated to just that

    Yeah, that would just be a ratings’ smash right there….

    Thronetender: Alas, probably won’t happen, but still, how far south does anyone think they’ll get?

    Fairly far south, I should think. As (I think) Nymeria Warrior Queen noted,

    Daeny has a vision consistent with them being at the Trident.

    The other question is: how long will it take for the Andal-derived Westerosi to accept that this threat is real? In many ways, the Northerners are going to be put in the same place as the Wildlings: they will be fleeing south, and this could easily be interpreted as an invasion. They can repeat the claim that the Walkers and Wights are real until they are blue in the face. The Northerners at least accept that Walkers used to exist: and it will be easier for them to process the evidence in this light. But the Andals have no stories about the Father choosing a Hero to fight ice demons, the Warrior training him, the Smith forging him a great sword and the Stranger empowering it to actually hurt demons, or something like that. They might even initially think that wights are some sort of northern trick.

    Unfortunately for the bad guys ( 😉 ), their civil war and the onset of a harsh winter would be a perfect recipe for mistrust and misunderstandings.

  242. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    True I am?. Markus asked a lot of relevant questions. The whole reason I watch the show and read the books is to speculate and discover. The idea of introducing a mystery (inception style no less with all the face layers and who’s who?) and then abandoning it to vague magic is going to stand out to me and I am going to pick at until an explanation works (for me).

  243. Myrmidon: Well they will most definitely reach Harrenhal IMO

    Wow, that would be excellent, Harrenhal is not too far from either Kings Landing or from the Reach. And the validity of the news about the WW cant help but reach the ears of those in either place. Which means we might see both Randyll and Dickon riding out to save the rest of Westeros from WW and taking them on in person. Ha, take that you mean old man.

    And wouldn’t it be just wonderful if bookish Sam, the shame of Horn Hill because he wanted to be such a “worthless” thing as a Maester, comes up with the answer as to how to defeat them? I still don’t think it would make Randyll love Sam, but it might be good for some grudging respect from the tyrant. Ah, one can dream.. Such is the nature of my dreams in the time of Game of Thrones.

  244. Looking forward to the speech, which should be wonderful coming from Ian McShane, if that is indeed the case. I imagine we’d get it, since Cogman is writing (Cogman is getting some horrendous abuse on Twitter right now, though, from book purists and trolls. I feel sorry for the guy.)

  245. Tycho Nestoris,

    I dont remember the girls face dissolving, but yeah, if Arya put it back on the wall, the question begs, where did it go? Its a detail I missed, and certainly didnt have any real effect on the storyline, but sure, how does that work? Frankly, how does sticking the face of a dead person over yours work exactly? Magic of course, but yeah. The whole concept is rather creepy anyway.

  246. Valaquen: Cogman is getting some horrendous abuse on Twitter right now, though, from book purists and trolls. I feel sorry for the guy.

    That sucks that’s still happening. 🙁 (It’s really sad the lengths some will go to to feel important, or whatever the fuck their reasoning is behind that kind of crap.)

    Speaking of twitter, I ran across the twtter account of James Faulkner reading through WotW twitter stuff. He seems to be a lovely man with a great sense of humor!

  247. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    None of the Starks can be Warden of the North because the Crown is the one who appoints the wardens, from what I remember. Cersei agrees to name LF Warden of the North in exchange for taking out the Boltons. LF tries to convince Sansa to go to Winterfell in S5, so that Stannis will name her Wardeness if he wins against the Boltons. The Boltons were given the position by the Lannisters/Crown.

    If the Starks are back in Winterfell, the North will most likely have to secede again like they did under Robb and declare a king or queen. So if the North wants Jon to lead them, he will.

  248. OT……I just came back from watching the movie Me Before You, starring Emily Clark (and Charles Dance!) I know there are fans who really don’t like her, they don’t like the character, and they don’t think she is a good actor. Well, I can tell you right now that anything wrong with the character has nothing to do with her acting. She was splendid in this film. A problem with the writing and material she was given? Probably. But she is a fine actor and I won’t let anyone put her down (and btw yes its a tear jerker and well worth watching!!) OK /OT

  249. Flayed Potatoes,

    I don’t think the North would chose Jon, at least not as long as any Stark heirs remain alive. Nadia mentioned

    Robb’s will. The only reason Robb wrote that will in the books is because he thought Jon was really the only one left (thinking both Bran and Rickon dead, Arya most likely dead, and Sansa in the hands of the Lannisters.
  250. Dee,

    I can’t remember whether it’s been said on the show, or if it’s only mentioned in the books. I don’t think of it as a spoiler, but it could be non-show info, so I’ll put it under code, just in case you decide you don’t want to know.

    Old Valyria

    Shit. Of course, it just occurred to me saying where Aegon the Conquerer landed is book-info, too…unless it was mentioned on the show. I hope it was. If not, sorry.

  251. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Northerners also follow strength and if he’s the one leading them into battle, they might follow him. They also live in a feudal society (and are in times of war), so they might prefer Jon over Sansa (who she marries again can be a problem, which is why

    Robb’s will existed in the first place).

    She’s also a wanted criminal after Joffrey’s poisoning. Arya is missing and Bran is crippled and can’t have heirs.

  252. Valaquen,

    OMG like what???????

    FYI after last years ABSURD REACTION to episode 6 – he got some major abuse from people OVER a fictional character (lolssssssss) – this year he tweeted out at the beginning of the season that he was turning off all notifications from people he does not follow

  253. Tycho Nestoris,

    The religious themes of the Hyperion cantos would blow a lot of minds. Catholic priests captaining starships, cruciform resurrection and mysterious Void That Binds.

  254. I like Jon taking a backseat to Sansa’s lead.

    I take it as Jon following his liege lord (or in this case, lady). It’ll be interesting though when Sansa learns of Jon’s true parentage and how the power dynamic may change. Will Sansa and the rest of the North bend the knee to Targaryen rule? Will Jon even want the Iron Throne? If Jon accepts his Targaryen parentage, how will Sansa and Dany treat each other, let alone Dany and Jon? I don’t know but I can hardly wait to find out!!
  255. Ice Spider,

    I love traveling and hope to do it again in my twilight years…

    Do NOT wait for your twilight years!! I did lots of traveling for a while and loved it, went many places but I still have a list a mile long that I want to see. Life sort of got in the way, I got busy, and left off lots of travel I wanted to do. Unfortunately age has made traveling more than a bit challenging, so I wont be able to see many of the foriegn places I want to. . Wish I did more when I could have So go now, don’t wait!

    Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    After reading through all of that quoted above, I just frankly think you are overthinking it. Its not that delving into the history or workings of the faceless men, or other groups isnt interesting, its just that there is artistic and creative license in making the TV show, and naturally there are going to be some things, that if you try to approach it from a scientific point of view, arent going to make sense.

    This. If you try to make sense of a fantasy story, you’ll drive yourself crazy Yeah there’s a lot to wonder about and consider. but don’t expect answers to everything. You wont find them. Its all just specualtion to talk about. I find it very cool, actually, that such a place exists, where you can change your face and become someone else (or no one I guess). What I wonder about is if you change your face, does your body change as well? Coz someone can probably recognize a person by their shape, way they walk and hold themselves, even if they are wearing a dif face, kwim? Actually my thought is that there are many more FMs floating around that no one knows about. I suspect Jacquen is the trainer for newbies and answers to others. He did give some of the history to Ayra, but given the lying games they due, Im not sure if they are true….

    I do wonder if there isn’t a D&D video about the FM like they have of other segments of the world, or maybe GRRM explained it somewhere,anyone know?

  256. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    To expand on that:

    They left Old Valyria and settled on Dragonstone before the Doom happened, which destroyed Old Valyria. Thus, they are one of only a few Valyrian bloodlines still around.
  257. ash,

    Thank you!!!!!!

    Don’t think it’s the material – it’s just how dany is to be portrayed

    And I want to see it also 🙂 can’t wait

  258. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Yeah, that has been stated on the show.

    hexonx,

    No, there are a lot of them still around. They had many colonies that survived. The ruling classes in some of the major Essosian cities are largely descended from them.

  259. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    It’s okay – book info that probably doesn’t affect future things in the show
    Also – it’s probably in the histories stuff they release with the DVDs
    Thank you 🙂

    Edit: it has been mentioned in the show before as others have said

  260. Flayed Potatoes,

    They might want him, I’m not saying it’s impossible. I just think they will choose a Stark, as long as one remains, over Jon.

    When Robb’s will was written, he believed both Bran and Rickon dead. If he’d known both his brothers were alive, he wouldn’t have needed to write the will.
  261. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    The will is not going to make it on the show imo.

    Rickon is dead man walking for me. Being Ramsay’s prisoner can’t be good.

    Bran can’t have heirs and seems more preoccupied with magic and his powers anyway. We also don’t know how he’ll use the information he finds out from the Tower of Joy. Honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me if he just supports Jon when he returns because he knows he needs Jon to lead them against the WW.

  262. Flayed Potatoes,

    I don’t think it will make it on the show, either, but Nadia mentioned it in her post, so I was addressing that. As for the other two, you could very, very well be right, but I’m trying to base things on what we know at this moment

    both Bran and Rickon are alive. Inability to produce an heir aside, I’m not so sure Bran, if he lives, will be in any condition to rule. By that I mean he’ll likely be too much out of this world, for lack of a better way of putting it. As for Rickon, well, it’s probably a vain hope, but I’m keeping hope alive he’ll survive.

    That last part probably doesn’t need to be under code, but I’d rather use code unnecessarily, than not use it when I should.

  263. ash:
    OT……I just came back from watching the movie Me Before You, starring Emily Clark (and Charles Dance!)I know there are fans who really don’t like her, they don’t like the character, and they don’t think she is a good actor.Well, I can tell you right now that anything wrong with the character has nothing to do with her acting.She was splendid in this film.A problem with the writing and material she was given? Probably.But she is a fine actor and I won’t let anyone put her down (and btw yes its a tear jerker and well worth watching!!)OK /OT

    Cool! My thirteen year-old has read the book in anticipation of seeing the movie – and she’s even read “After You,” as well. We were going to go this afternoon, but the ten year-old was sick so we’re going tomorrow afternoon. I’m so glad you loved it.

    As soon as Anne had me Google the trailer, I was like, you know who that is, right? She never got Khaleesi, and I barely got Charles Dance, but she did get the Doctor Who companion. Both of us thought the dude was familiar but couldn’t place him as Finn from the Hunger Games until we IMDbed the movie.

  264. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I don’t know when to use code either lol.

    I agree. I think Bran is going to be really troubled after his experiences in the cave. 🙁 The show didn’t have time to get into it this week because Bran and Meera had to escape, but things will eventually sink in I think.

  265. Ginevra,

    That’s lovely of you, although you doing something lovely isn’t at all surprising.

    Seriously, though, what kind of fucking infants take pride in being so obnoxious they get blocked? Not to mention, what kind of fucking infants need to whine so badly, they whine about GoT in response to tweets having nothing to do with GoT, then when Cogman mentions that’s kinda lame (paraphrasing…he’s unbelievable good-natured about it), do it even more??? SMFH

    /rant

    I had to explain to a friend of mine why Sunday was the only day over the weekend I’d be unavailable. I admit, stepping outside myself for a moment and listening to my explanation, I had a good laugh at myself. 🙂

  266. ash: This. If you try to make sense of a fantasy story, you’ll drive yourself crazy

    The rules are no different for fantasy stories than for others. (The fact that most epic fantasies are incompressible is one reason why the genre gets so little respect: but that’s a separate issue.) M,B&W’s job (or jobs are) the same as any other novelists or show runners. Here, we are not talking about story, but about plot. Guns are important to the plots of many fictional works. However, you don’t explain how a gun works in most fictional works, and it’s not important that the audience knows. It is important that a gun or car or airplane that is important later in the tale be presented earlier in the tale. If you have a character whip out a gun in key situation that he/she never is written or shown to have prior to that situation, then this is basically Deus ex Machina. Similarly, if you have characters suddenly use magic or magical creatures that never appeared in the story prior to that point, then this is basically Deus ex Machina.

    So, we really do not need to know how Faceless Men change faces anymore than we need to know how guns or airplanes or cars work in normal fiction. We do (or did) need to be told that Faceless Men can change faces before it becomes important. They’ve shown us that. Now they can use it without people complaining: “now that Character X needs to look different, the world magically has that sort of magic?!?!”

  267. ash,

    I’m sorry, I don’t know. I don’t have twitter, or facebook, or any of that kind of thing. I do read some twitter accounts, though. I check WotW’s twitter feed…there’s all kinds of good stuff on there, and that’s led me to being aware of other twitter accounts. Things like people bothering Cogman the way they have been and are make me kind of want to start an account, but I know myself too well. I’d start one with the intention of saying nice things to people I appreciate, but a day would roll around where my mood was such that I’d start fighting with assholes who do things like stalk and troll Cogman, and that just isn’t a rabbit hole I wanna go down.

  268. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    He also tweeted he wasn’t seeing notifications from peiole he does not follow

    Someone responded “hiding from criticism so you can write fanfic”

    Insults and name calling he received isn’t criticism lol!!! I don’t think he gives a shit what the ASOIAF fandom think. But last year I saw some tweets calling him a garbage human and rape lover or something. Don’t think he wants to see that

  269. Flayed Potatoes: If the Starks are back in Winterfell, the North will most likely have to secede again like they did under Robb and declare a king or queen. So if the North wants Jon to lead them, he will.

    This is correct: Wardens basically are like Colonial Governors. It’s a small issue in the books: Ned is very upset when Robert appoints Tywin to be Warden of the East, but because it is not a hereditary office, and because Robyn is a child, Robert had to appoint someone competent.

    It could be that when the dust settles, Daeny will reappoint whichever Stark is left as Warden of the North. However, my bet is that it’s not going to be a pressing issue!

  270. Dee: I don’t think he gives a shit what the ASOIAF fandom think.

    heh, even before Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, it was a running joke that if an adaptation of a book was any good, then pre-existing fans of the book would hate it!

  271. Wimsey,

    It is important that a gun or car or airplane that is important later in the tale be presented earlier in the tale. If you have a character whip out a gun in key situation that he/she never is written or shown to have prior to that situation, then this is basically Deus ex Machina. Similarly, if you have characters suddenly use magic or magical creatures that never appeared in the story prior to that point, then this is basically Deus ex Machina.

    Um I agree with all that, and that we don’t need to know what the HOBW is and how it works. Just saying that trying to figure out every little detail is not necessary. Tho it is fun to speculate, you can’t expect to know everything in the plot. Thats why these threads have e hundreds of posts!

    I am not sure I totally agree with you about the rules for plots being the same across genres, and if those rules must always be followed to make a good story. I get the Chekov gun, and generally agree. But do all plots in all genres really need to follow that rule? Im thinking there are examples where they don’t, tho of course can’t name one story off hand.

    Im also interested in the difference between story and plot – I think you’ve explained it before and perhaps this is not the right thread to do so. Is there a good link to a book/website/whatever that explains more? Thx

  272. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Thanks for the info. I hope he knows that there are people who appreciate what he does and while they might not agree with his choices, don’t think of him as a horrible person.

  273. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Thronetender,
    In many ways, I enjoy the off-season here even more than the on-season.

    Sigh, especially since there’s so much more off-season, eh? Well, you are one of the ones that make it special and make us want to come back all summer (and Fall annnnd Wiiiinter) to see what’s going on 🙂

  274. ash: who appreciate what he does and while they might not agree with his choices, don’t think of him as a horrible person.

    Yeesh, are they attacking the man personally? Way to take the joy out of doing a job.

  275. LordDavos: An advantage of merging Benjen with Coldhands is he can get through the Wall the way Sam did so presumably he can take Bran and Meera to Winterfell?

    Can he though? We don’t know that he can. I assume that his being in a condition similar to Coldhands that he can’t either. He was (saved)(kept alive but partially dead) in a manner similar to how the Walkers were created, with dragonglass and magic. I would say the spells woven into the Wall could restrict his passage in the same way it does the WWs.

  276. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    But none of the other Starks are a possibility now. Bran might be coming south but we know he’s less human now; he’s something more. He’s not going to be warden of Winterfell and have kids. I don’t know if Rickon lives past the BotB but I don’t think the show has given any focus on Rickon because I don’t think he’s a focus in this show any longer.

  277. Dee: That’s ridiculous.

    It is and it is not. What it really reflects is one subset of fans for books who are in love with the narrative and/or particular plot elements more than anything else. The movies they want are documentaries rather than stories. TV shows themselves get these same sorts of fans: for example, there are Doctor Who fans and Star Trek fans who’s first and foremost concern with new episodes, films, etc., is that they maintain continuity with the older ones. (That is particularly nuts for Doctor Who, where there is time travel and thus infinite possible histories!)

    Here is another way to look at it. If you went to a Tolkien site 15 years ago and looked at the poll rankings for the films, then two things would jump out. One: a much higher proportion of Tolkien fans gave the films very low rankings than places like Box Office Mojo showed. (And BOM audience rankings did an incredibly good job of predicting future success in series, too.) Two, the majority of Tolkien fans rated the films well. So, the characterization is closer to being false than to true, but it is not entirely false.

    ash: Im also interested in the difference between story and plot – I think you’ve explained it before and perhaps this is not the right thread to do so. Is there a good link to a book/website/whatever that explains more? Thx

    The best contrast I remember was from my high school literature teacher a few (*cough*) years ago. (Hey, decades are years….) Characters in a story are aware of at least some the plot. For example, Jon, Daeny, etc., all know things that are happening, and the characters themselves inform other characters about parts of the plot. Characters are not aware of the story. That’s an abstraction created by the parallels in how the main characters evolve. This is what makes it art: after all, history has plot and lots and lots of it; however, history tells no story because it does not add up to anything more than the sum of it’s parts.

    The one comparison that I well remember her making is that “story” is equivalent to melody: all of the notes by themselves are just sound, but put together in a particular way, the create something more than just the sounds. And when you read reviews criticizing a film or a book for being all plot and no story, what they basically are saying is “there was no point to it.”

    As for readings, I do remember Tolkien’s letters providing a pretty lucid contrast of the two concepts. When people asked why there were no real protagonists in Lord of the Rings, he explained that he felt that stories should be told with plots rather than with characters (think of stories predating, say, Jane Austen). He elsewhere notes that he considered Lord of the Rings to be a story about Death and Immortality. Now, obviously characters were aware the important plot elements: needing to toss Rings into Fires, needing to rally troops against Sauron, needing to avoid Nazgul, and needing to buy time for Frodo to complete his task. However, nobody was thinking or talking about death or immortality: that is a “melody” that arises from people working to bring about things that should last forever (monarchy! forests! pipe weed! 😀 ), including removing the last remnants of the Immortals from the mortal worlds.

  278. ash:
    Wimsey,
    I am not sure I totally agree with you about the rules for plots being the same across genres, and if those rules must always be followed to make a good story.

    In fantasy and sci-fi, many occurrences can be explained simply by saying, it’s magic. In other genres, you wouldn’t be able to explain away anything truly unbelievable like that. Everything outside the magical should follow the same rules, though. So I both agree and disagree with Wimsey here.

    I also agree and disagree with him on Chekhov’s gun. Chekhov said, and this is the part I agree with, that if a gun is hung it must go off. Wimsey also sometimes says the inverse of this statement, as well, even though Chekhov never did to my knowledge: if a gun is not hung, it cannot go off. Here is where I disagree. We get surprises all the time. We like being surprised. Not everything must be foreshadowed.

  279. Lea

    Yes it’s like Sansa gets one goal (better claim to the north than Jon) and then Jon gets two goals (better claim to the country). 🙂

    Clob

    I would think he could get through as a serving member of the NW but we shall see.

  280. Markus Stark,

    My hypothesis after the finale of last season is that the faces can be taken from the wall, as Arya did, but the Faceless Men can use any or all of the faces as a glamour if they remain on the wall. I haven’t seen anything yet that contradicted this idea.

  281. Thronetender,

    Yes, much more of an off-season, but the folks who run this site do such a great job of keeping us engaged, guessing, and excited!
    And…wow…what an incredibly kind thing to say (and far too generous)! Thank you!!!

    It’s definitely a consolation knowing there are people like you and others to play with and laugh with during the long wait of the off-season, as we all dream of spring. 🙂

  282. Wimsey,

    I understand people invested in the originals – but there is no need to overreact and behave like idiots when the adaptation is different especially when the original writer has said the two stories are seperate and must be kept that way. Especially when attacking REAL people in defence of fictional characters

  283. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I think it’s clear that the male stark that comes out of this in the lead will be Jon. Rickon hasn’t been developed at all as a character to suddenly lead the North. Plus being Ramsay’s prisoner makes his mortality a real question.

    Bran is no longer human.

    And as mentioned, LF in theory will be the warden in the north…. Maybe? But I think if Jon and co win, the North will declare Jon the King in the North. Sansa will be by her side but I really doubt they declare her Queen

  284. come Sunday it’ll be alright…

    (in my best Jimmy Buffet voice)

    This season is setting up for season finally to be EPIC!!

  285. ash:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Thanks for the info.I hope he knows that there are people who appreciate what he does and while they might not agree with his choices, don’t think of him as a horrible person.

    Of course, I can’t speak for him, but I’m sure he does. Seeing that sort of thing, though, it’s no wonder D&D stay off twitter.

    Nadia,

    I agree, Bran isn’t, necessarily, but Rickon certainly is, imo, and will remain so as long as he remains alive (although being in Ramsay’s hands, who knows how long he’ll remain alive). The truth of the matter is, whoever is put in charge of Winterfell and North, it won’t be long before the WW’s come, and for all we know, there won’t be much of the North left to rule by the time the Battle for the Dawn is over.

  286. Not too spoilery, but my Charter DVR description is a bit different and seems longer than normal for Broken Man:

    Jaime encounters a hero; the High Sparrow fixates on another prey; Arya hatches a new plan; Yara and Theon plot their next move; Olenna and Cersei discuss their families’ futures.

  287. keltia:
    I put this comment in the earlier thread about Episode 7, but as I was commenter #2,478 or so, I’ve posted it here as I’d like to see WotW thoughts about this.My post has to do with last year’s photos of Maisie’s filming

    Hiya. Just my opinion, but I think that

    the blood is Arya’s. Remember the clip in the Season 6 trailer of someone presumably going down stairs and trailing a bloody hand on the stone wall? They were wearing a loose gray shirt/tunic. Arya wounded but leading the Waif to the dark, where she has an advantage? Hmmm.
  288. Wimsey,

    T

    he one comparison that I well remember her making is that “story” is equivalent to melody: all of the notes by themselves are just sound, but put together in a particular way, the create something more than just the sounds. And when you read reviews criticizing a film or a book for being all plot and no story, what they basically are saying is “there was no point to it.”

    Thanks for that, makes much more sense now.

    Ginevra,

    Wimsey also sometimes says the inverse of this statement, as well, even though Chekhov never did to my knowledge: if a gun is not hung, it cannot go off. Here is where I disagree. We get surprises all the time. We like being surprised. Not everything must be foreshadowed.

    Yes thats what I mean. Tho usually the surprises, or twists, can be recognized as guns on rereading (I remember reading Wolf Hall, and realizing that two characters were having an affair that I completely missed; till I read it again and oh yeah, of course duh) But yeah, I don’t think those clues need to be there to make the surprise work (I see the term Easter Egg in books; are those the clues you are supposed to find to figure out the twists?)

  289. ash:
    I see the term Easter Egg in books; are those the clues you are supposed to find to figure out the twists?

    We need a much hipper youngster to be the authority, but I always thought Easter Eggs were little things that normal folks wouldn’t notice but that book fans or obsessive fans would just devour: like “I can feel the winds of winter licking across my face,” or Benjen as Coldhands, or the flashbacks with the Mad King, or the bed of blood. I’m not sure an Easter Egg is so much a clue as it is a present, or at least that’s how I see it. You’re a good fan, so we put this little gift in here just for you.

  290. ash,

    I traveled a lot as a young adult.. but raising children made that hard to do.. now Im raising a grand child.. so unfortunately I have to wait a bit longer.. she’s only 6. But thanks for the comment!! 😉

  291. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I still think the show is going to eventually tie in the book, where Jon is going to be declared the King in the North. There are so many allusions to it in the book. The north is going to rally behind Jon – if not before the battle them after. I think we’re all assuming that one way or the other Jon and Co win. I think King Crow becomes king in the north – it can’t be Sansa because there’s no way they can veer so dramatically off the book plot, and there’s zero chance Sansa is declared queen of anything in WOW. Whether or not Rickon makes it out alive, retaking the North + threat of WW will make people unite behind Jon.

    At least I’m hoping this is what Kit means by a huge episode for Jon – after BotB the North falls behind him, rallied behind him, declares him their King (sets up a showdown with Dany when she first lands – she needs a foil initially and I don’t think the Lannisters are strong enough) and somehow n episode 10 he also discovers R+J

    /end fan fiction

  292. Ice Spider,

    The process is described in the books

    and putting on a face involved cutting Arya’s face and letting the blood flow over her face and then the face becomes attached – this is from Arya’s POV so she doesnt’ see what happening – but Arya retains memories of the person whose face is being used and how they died

    but I dont’ recall whether it mentioned how the face was removed.

  293. Ice Spider,

    So how did they acquire Cat’s face?

    in the books, she was thrown in the river as a affront to the Tully burial rites

    Was there a FM at RR and he got the face and took it from the body there? And then performed whatever magic is necessary to preserve the face until it makes it to Braavos? Seems a little iffy.

  294. Ginevra: In fantasy and sci-fi, many occurrences can be explained simply by saying, it’s magic.In other genres, you wouldn’t be able to explain away anything truly unbelievable like that.Everything outside the magical should follow the same rules, though.So I both agree and disagree with Wimsey here.

    I also agree and disagree with him on Chekhov’s gun.Chekhov said, and this is the part I agree with, that if a gun is hung it must go off.Wimsey also sometimes says the inverse of this statement, as well, even though Chekhov never did to my knowledge:if a gun is not hung, it cannot go off.Here is where I disagree.We get surprises all the time.We like being surprised.Not everything must be foreshadowed.

    Isn’t magic one of the main elements that separates fantasy from science fiction?

    Also: this chekhov’s gun metaphor is getting old. GRRM is a trope killer. He breaks and bends the rules so he can hang a gun and leave it there as he likes. And it would still be great story telling. I have no idea what you’re talking about because I’ve been to busy to participate in the forums lately but I just wanted to express how tired I am of reading about this metaphor. I’m not saying you can’t continue to talk about it, just expressing how tired it seems to me at this point. Surely there is some other narrative theory you could discuss.

  295. Darkrobin,

    I based that theory on the HoF teaser poster (showing her face). Arya’s face appears on “Jaqen” in 5.10 if that matters.

  296. Dee,

    Originally Valyria.

    Aegon’s father and children and dragons were on Dragonstone and not in Valyria when the Doom occurred, that’s why they escaped
  297. Ginevra: In fantasy and sci-fi, many occurrences can be explained simply by saying, it’s magic.In other genres, you wouldn’t be able to explain away anything truly unbelievable like that.Everything outside the magical should follow the same rules, though.So I both agree and disagree with Wimsey here.

    I also agree and disagree with him on Chekhov’s gun.Chekhov said, and this is the part I agree with, that if a gun is hung it must go off.Wimsey also sometimes says the inverse of this statement, as well, even though Chekhov never did to my knowledge:if a gun is not hung, it cannot go off.Here is where I disagree.We get surprises all the time.We like being surprised.Not everything must be foreshadowed.

    I disagree that all guns must be fired. Hanging them and leaving them there dangling like a sword overhead can work just fine….well at least for some readers who do not have strict rules about how a story is supposed to progress and thus get angered when it doesn’t meet their expectations. But they are the few…

    I think the distinction between “story” and “plot” is mostly bullshit, frankly. Type “difference between story and plot” into Google and you will get at least as many answers as pages you read. Generally, “story” means more abstracted, while plot is more detailed, but some people argue the opposite and no one agrees on where the line lies. In any case, if by story you mean the “melody” or some other high level abstraction, then it isn’t the story you care about. ASOIAF/AGoT is simply a mixture of a handful of classic storylines, woven together as many big novels are. There is little that is unique about them…indeed, some argue that there are as few as seven and many argue that there are no more than a few dozen stories in existence! Instead, each work of fiction you consume is just repetition of the same core “melodies” over-written with different plots and characters occurring in different settings. It is the latter three items which separate the good from the bad and the interesting from the dull.

  298. Demon Monkey: Isn’t magic one of the main elements that separates fantasy from science fiction?

    Also: this chekhov’s gun metaphor is getting old. GRRM is a trope killer. He breaks and bends the rules so he can hang a gun and leave it there as he likes. And it would still be great story telling. I have no idea what you’re talking about because I’ve been to busy to participate in the forums lately but I just wanted to express how tired I am of reading about this metaphor. I’m not saying you can’t continue to talk about it, just expressing how tired it seems to me at this point. Surely there is some other narrative theory you could discuss.

    Actually, when I first read the Quentyn chapters, that is how I felt -“GRRM loaded a gun, hung it on the wall, then deliberately had it misfire!” I enjoyed that immensely, because it defied my expectation.

    LSH is also a good example of a gun that has not yet fired yet is still affecting the story. Some people claim “but she’s only on two pages!” and miss the fact that she is in fact underlying every Riverlands chapter in AFFC/ADWD. The mere presence of that Chekhov’s gun warps everything around it. This is especially apparent on re-read. Even if that gun never goes off (it will, twice), it still made a huge impact when she appeared and influenced the context of a large portion of the plot thereafter even when hidden in the background.
  299. Connor:
    OT:
    Just wanted to say RIP Muhammad Ali. A fookin’ legend!

    I saw him as a child, walking through the Epcot Center, surrounded by bodyguards. No idea why he was there, but it was darned cool.

    May he rest in peace…

  300. Loving the Hall of Faces discussion. Jaqen was apparently a twin. Arya saw him standing behind her and dead on the ground at the same time. Then there’s Arya’s face on the corpse. I assumed/decided to believe it was some glamour/potion/magic/poison that made her hallucinate. Face poisoning. When Tom’s return to the show was announced, he united the fandom like the prince that was promised. People were throwing their books in the fire.

  301. Doug,

    My fear is they would cut all of that and just make it a Shrike/pilgrim story. That might be a neat mini series.

    I do like all the futuristic politics and religion. I’d love to see the I like the world building. The Keats stuff would not translate at all imo. It just feels like a story that in my head would make an epic film but the logistics of bringing it to life would literally require the story’s 29th century tech.

  302. The Waif is in training wearing her real face. She failed by requesting a kill. Jaqen didn’t correct her. He is aware just like he probably knows Arya kept and retrieved Needle. He knew she threw her coin in the ocean & where. The first thing Waif wanted to know was who gave Arya her coin & why. She tried to beat the info out of Arya & Jaqen caught her. In the end, Jaqen will add the Waif’s face to the Hall after someone finds her body & takes it to him. Arya will split promptly fearing punishment, but Jaqen won’t pursue Arya because even though she failed her assignment, she still gave the Many-Faced God a gift.

  303. Jumbo,

    The more I think about it, the more it irks me now lol. I read a little bit on another certain forum and to be quite honest I share some of the negative sentiments, even though I’ve never read the books, when they explain stuff and also go into depth on the issues with the show itself I understand the complaints. Furthermore I have read here and there enough to be convinced that with these 2 show runners a lot of what we get or don’t get to see in the show is based on personal whims of how much they like someone. Now maybe that’s the way many writers are with an ensemble cast, I dunno, but Imho it should be what is best for the story itself and if basing on a book series, to keep a character as close to his original story as possible.

    Jon is George’s creation and the show built him up naturally throughout the 5 years so for them to just towards the end decide Sansa’s their favorite right now so let’s give her these extra speaking parts and make her the POV in the north. At the expense of another main character who you just caused shitload of buzz about on the off season and used his poster and have a spooky resurrection scene you really think it makes sense to put him on back burner the whole season until you need him to swing a sword?

    At first I thought they’re keeping him low profile cause something will have more impact later but it doesn’t seem to be the case now. I mean, they might have him be the one to take out Ramsay but why do they think it’s only satisfying if Jon goes from downtrodden to berserker in one ep? I’ve tried keeping an open mind but with only 4 episodes left and the next one I hear talk about mostly Sansa again it is a let-down after waiting those long months hyped for this season only to see my favorite character get sidelined.

    I mean, Tyrion is many people’s fave but he didn’t undergo a transformation that was important to delve into this season. However, I do seem his role being kind of meh as well now. They set up the cool scene with dragons but everything else just meh, then no follow-up to that.

  304. ygritte,
    I get what you mean. I’m still expecting that Jon will do more in this episode though. That episode 7 photo with him in the middle (with Sansa and Davos on the sides) having a seemingly intense conversation with Glover is giving me some hope. 🙂 In the preview, he’s also the one in the middle at the House Mormont. It looks like they are making him the one in charge of this recruitment campaign.

  305. I haven’t read all the posts upthread but did anyone notice that the Tully army’s uniform (at 0:02) seems similar to the uniform of the soldier behind Sansa at the season 6 trailer (where she’s riding a horse)? Or is there another army uniform that has a similar design? I know it’s not the Vale army as it’s different from the one shown in episode 4 (LF’s scene with SweetRobin and Lord Royce).

  306. ash:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Im not on twitter – is there a way to contact Cogman and give him some support? I’d write on his FB page but not sure he’d see it….

    Yuk! The internet really can be toxic. It’s good in lots of ways – as someone from the UK I can access instructional videos posted by people in other countries but it has a dark side too. Someone had posted a behind the episodes video on YouTube which featured among other things how they managed the semblance of hanging the NW traitors. Someone had commented about the Olly actor that they wished the kid would be killed in real life. He/she did get “called out” by other commenters, though.

    Quote Reply

    Demon Monkey: Also: this chekhov’s gun metaphor is getting old. GRRM is a trope killer. He breaks and bends the rules so he can hang a gun and leave it there as he likes. And it would still be great story telling. I have no idea what you’re talking about because I’ve been to busy to participate in the forums lately but I just wanted to express how tired I am of reading about this metaphor. I’m not saying you can’t continue to talk about it, just expressing how tired it seems to me at this point. Surely there is some other narrative theory you could discuss.

    Quote Reply

    I’m fed up the words “lazy writing”. I’m not saying people have to like everything D&D write – there have been some things I’ve questioned myself though there is more in the show I like than dislike. If when I was at school I had written “Writer x is boring and indulges in lazy writing” I’d have been told to rewrite the essay.

    Having said that I don’t know if there is another way of describing the dramatic device of a “Chekhov’s Gun” – maybe it had another name before Chekhov’s time; I don’t know.

  307. Sam,

    You’re probably right. I shouldn’t listen to the naysayers at others places on the net when they act like they know spoilers but it appears to be just speculation based on snippets of a trailer.

    I slowed down and paused the trailer to look. It’s really hard to tell because the dude is blurred in the background. It looks similar yet I can’t confirm there are any fish scales or a center emblem on the one behind Sansa and the top part of uniform looks more pale than the dark grey of Tully’s. But it’s super hard to tell probably cause these new laptop screens don’t go as bright as the older ones.

  308. ygritte,

    Oh, you’re right. When I looked again and looked hard enough, the colors don’t seem to match. Oh well. I just got excited that maybe BF would support Team Stark. 🙂

  309. My only hope is that trailers usually don’t give away big details. Isn’t it the first trailer where we actually see Jon? Him not talking shouldn’t be an issue. My guess is that he will be doing speeches during the rallying scenes, maybe even with the wildlings – as they follow the man, so it must be Jon who persuades them to fight , not Tormund (I’d love to see something similar than in the books). I think it will be him who actually gets the support, not Sansa or Davos… but it won’t be enough, that’s why Sansa is writing that letter asking for LF’s help. I don’t like the idea that Sansa is only asking for the Vale’s army, because she realises that all the North seems to swear loyalty to Jon, the bastard, and not her, the Stark. Or maybe that letter isn’t for LF, it’s just a part of the rallying troops in the North, because they don’t have time to go to everywhere (even though it makes no sense).

    If Jon is just a bystander in a situaton where even DAVOS is giving rallying speeches, it sucks.

  310. Off the wall, but what if Gendry is the Broken Man. After all he is a much loved character the just sailed off into the sunset. It would be kinda of funny. Hay dudes, I finally learned how to get to shore. ; )

  311. Sam, Aszusz,
    If Jon is just a bystander in a situaton where even DAVOS is giving rallying speeches, it sucks.

    Sorry but yeah that’s the way it’s looking according to a so far legit spoiler I just read a min. ago that i’s mostly Sansa doing the talking and tormund and it does suck
  312. They are really setting up the Stark-Snow rift. Sansa gets frustrated that she doesn’t get support from the Northern Lords, but Jon does. She writes a secret letter to Petyr, then leaves to meet up with him and the Vale army. She then waits until Jon and his forces do away with the bulk of Ramsay’s army but also perish in great numbers themselves only to swoop in with LF and The Knights of the Vale to destroy the remaining Bolton/Umber/Karstark soldiers. Now having more men on her side than Jon, she will hang him out to dry. Jonsa shippers will be unconsolable. Calling it now.

  313. That also means they have had Jon kill wights,a White Walker, Wildlings, protect the Realm for years, go through death and resurrection only to be manipulated, lied to and betrayed by a stupid greedy girl. That’s Dabid for you.

  314. ygritte,

    I’d be really disappointed if that’s how it would go down. I don’t mind having the 3 of them be equally compelling as long as there’s still something for each one to contribute.

  315. Icekhione,
    I’m still holding out hope that’s not what’s going to happen! We’ll see in this next episode if the hint of discord seen by some in episode 5 is real. I still believe Sansa isn’t “greedy”. She’s understandably not trusting but I don’t think she would like to take everything for herself. Fingers crossed. Now I’m nervous for Team Stark.

  316. Apparently before E9 Sansa tells Jon that Rickon’s dead. But we know he isn’t. Sounds like she already gave up on him (but she still wants that sweet revenge and Winterfell). Bet she secretly wants one male Stark heir out of the way.

    I wonder if the showrunners realise they had Sansa go through that Winterfell arc to turn her into a duplicitous, lying, greedy cow, while having Jon sidelined and act like a complete retard and almost a mute. After what happened to him, why is he still so trusting of people?

  317. Icekhione,

    She better not do this! (It’s Thrones, she playing the game, so she prolly will) That B*tch! I hate her. Poor Jon how much more betrayal can he handle? Who is there to tell Sansa all that LF is and has done? Do you think she’ll ever find out?

  318. ygritte,

    If there’s any justice her scheming will bite her in the ass. Littlefinger and Sansa deserve each other. I so want Bran to return south and put her in her place. Winterfell is his.

    I like that Jon’s motivations are Rickon, liberation of Winterfell/the North and White Walkers, and not Sansa’s ambition and hurt pride. He didn’t decide to move out until the letter from Ramsay came. I just wish he wasn’t so trusting, blind and withdrawn because the plot calls for it.

    It’s a shame the characters are now shaped to suit the plot instead of the other way around.

    ‘I did what I had to do to survive’
    lol that’s some lousy excuse from Lady Lannister-Bolton. Did she marry Ramsay to survive?

  319. Thronetender,

    Well as Wimsey mentioned in a previous post the rest of Westeros will pay no heed to any claims or request from the Northeners so the WW will have to cross the Riverland for them to start to worry. Now if they don’t dismiss it immediately as an attack from rebellious northeners they will send an scouting party to figure out what is going on, and by the time they figure out what is truly going the WW will have reached Harenhal. Randyll’s dismissal of Sam is indicative of a very stubborn person with limited analytical skills so who cares what he thinks of Sam? Sam is simply a much better person and perhaps more valuable to the future of Westeros than his dad will ever be. Unfortunatelly men like him don’t change their attitudes towards those they deem unworthy, even if the later performs miraculous deeds,it has to do with their own insecurities , so although your dream is pretty amazing I don’t think it will actually happen :(.

  320. Icekhione,

    That would be nice because my hate for season 1 Sansa would finally find a shore to break instead of having to fall into a deep hole of unquiet oblivion

  321. Kit Hairyton,

    Exactly! Also it was extremely difficult for Sansa to convince him to act when they received the Pink Letter. The guy is still in shock after having been murdered by the men he thought were his brothers, he may also be suffering from some sort of PTSD? It was a traumatic event afterall ,so having him take lead at this point would be pretty absurd. Also when it comes to politics with highborns Davos and Sansa -to a lesser degree- are more experienced so it would be expected for him to take the backseat and have them do the talking .

  322. Nadia:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I still think the show is going to eventually tie in the book, where Jon is going to be declared the King in the North. There are so many allusions to it in the book. The north is going to rally behind Jon – if not before the battle them after. I think we’re all assuming that one way or the other Jon and Co win. I think King Crow becomes king in the north – it can’t be Sansa because there’s no way they can veer so dramatically off the book plot, and there’s zero chance Sansa is declared queen of anything in WOW. Whether or not Rickon makes it out alive, retaking the North + threat of WW will make people unite behind Jon.

    At least I’m hoping this is what Kit means by a huge episode for Jon – after BotB the North falls behind him, rallied behind him, declares him their King (sets up a showdown with Dany when she first lands – she needs a foil initially and I don’t think the Lannisters are strong enough) and somehow n episode 10 he also discovers R+J

    /end fan fiction

    As a Targaryen and not a Stark, Jon is more likely to be King of the Seven Kingdoms than King of the North. I always thought King Crow meant not a king but the king. That’s not to say that there won’t be intermittent stops. But I would rather the North and Winterfell return to the Starks, where it should be.

  323. Kit Hairyton,

    Except he’ll be expected to lead these armies into battle and needs to prove he can do it & is worthy. He was over his dreams of suntanning in episode 5 during the strategy meeting. But whatever….

  324. ygritte,

    So.. your hating on Sansa because… of your own speculations?

    Btw, I hope ur right, cuz her playing the game actually makes her somewhat interesting (unlike show Jon who is literally a copy-paste fantasy hero)

    Maybe its just me, but these characters aren’t real… I don’t like or dislike characters based off of their likeability… I like characters who contribute to plot and intrigue… people like Cersei, Tywin, and Varys are my favorite characters.

  325. Question about Varys:

    Where has it been “confirmed” that he leaves Meereen and goes to Dorne?

    I’ve been pretty much following filming spoilers, but to me this is anything but confirmed:
    – Varys leaving Meereen was based on a filming spoiler of him and Peter Dinklage on a dock with a green screen behind them… but we’ve already seen this scene in E01! It’s the burning of the Meereeneese fleet!
    – Varys in Dorne was based on a set spoiler of him and Olenna in the same area as the Dornish crew… but so were Dany/Cersei/Margaery for a cover shoot. And given where things are heading, I don’t see any reason for Olenna to show up in Dorne! Come on, those dreadful Sand Snakes murdered two innocent children: Myrcella and Trystane… I don’t see Olenna becoming desperate enough to be willing to ally her house with the likes of them…

    While it is entirely possible Varys will leave Meereen, I don’t think we can conclude that based on filming spoilers.

    Can anyone clarify this for me?

  326. Myrmidon,
    Also it was extremely difficult for Sansa to convince him to act when they received the Pink Letter.

    I think it was more due to the fact they don’t have the numbers, than his reluctance to fight. What did Rickard say to Young Ned in one of the flashbacks?
    “Don’t get involved in a fight, but if you must, win.” Or something like that.

    Jon obviously tries to avoid any fighting, especially a fight in which he may lose. And as it seems, Team Stark will lose if they don’t gather enough men, and Jon knows it. Right now he realises he has to fight, there is no other way, but to do so, he needs more men. I can definitely see him (plotwise) to actively stand up and make sure he gets them.

  327. ygritte:
    Jumbo,

    The more I think about it, the more it irks me now lol. I read a little bit on another certain forum and to be quite honest I share some of the negative sentiments, even though I’ve never read the books, when they explain stuff and also go into depth on the issues with the show itself I understand the complaints. Furthermore I have read here and there enough to be convinced that with these 2 show runners a lot of what we get or don’t get to see in the show is based on personal whims of how much they like someone. Now maybe that’s the way many writers are with an ensemble cast, I dunno, but Imho it should be what is best for the story itself and if basing on a book series, to keep a character as close to his original story as possible.

    Jon is George’s creation and the show built him up naturally throughout the 5 years so for them to just towards the end decide Sansa’s their favorite right now so let’s give her these extra speaking parts and make her the POV in the north.

    If you actually read the books, you’d come to a realization that D&D are Jon Snow’s biggest fanboys. They bend over backwards to make Jon appear as the gentlest, sweetest, friendliest person in all of Westeros, when in reality Jon is as harsh and unforgiving a leader as much as Daenerys. Speaking of whom, she’s the one who I feel gets the short end of the stick in the show. They over-exaggerate her annoying traits( not helped by Clarke’s poor acting) while completely taking out/reversing parts of Jon Snow which may make a viewer question him.

    One chapter after he becomes Lord Commander is enough to see this.
    1) He starts zoning out his friends and looks down on them like Mr Bossman ( whereas in the show he is shown as the friendliest Lord Commander ever )
    2) He sends away Aemon Targeryan to sea in his old age to die.
    3) He sends away Sam to the Citadel against Sam’s wishes ( They have reversed this in the show )
    4) He separates a mother from her babe. Forces Gilly to give up her child and take Mance Ryder’s child instead. And when she refuses, he threatens to have Gilly’s babe killed.

  328. Kit Hairyton,

    To be fair, Sansa can’t exactly take center stage either because she’ll get called out for marrying into the Bolton family. She’s also a wanted criminal for Joffrey’s poisoning. And it’s not like she’ll be doing the actual fighting. Both Jon and Sansa have strikes against them. Jon isn’t the only one with issues in the group. What’s stopping any of the Northern lords to capture her and hand her over to Ramsay or Cersei and avoid trouble?

    Jon also knows they don’t have the numbers, which is why he’s reluctant. He doesn’t want to die again. He’s not an idiot.

    BranTheBlessed,

    Regarding 2 and 3:

    Aemon has king’s blood, so you can argue Jon’s sending him away to protect him from Melisandre. It’s another reason for the baby swap (though I liked how this made Jon into a bit of a grey character).

    Aemon isn’t getting any younger and they will need a new maester. Sam isn’t of much use at the Wall, since he can’t fight. Sending Sam to train as a maester and learn about the WW is actually a good long-term decision. I was a bit annoyed the show changed things and made it seem like Sam’s decision.

  329. Kit Hairyton,

    Don’t despair yet. I don’t see the Northern houses rallying behind Sansa. She’s a woman and this is the North. Jon is not confident at the moment and he needs Sansa and Davos as support, both of them have the drive he’s missing right now. House Mormont are Stark loyalists and will also help get other minor houses on board. Jon may be a bastard but he’s a man and he’s a Stark and the Bolton’s hold the known surviving Stark heir. The North will follow him into battle but not a woman imo.
    And besides, the trailer suggests Sansa is having to defend her marriage to a Bolton.

    Having told LF to take a hike, I suspect Sansa’s letter is simply to get him to bring the Vale army into the fray to strengthen their position.

    I’m not buying into Sansa betraying Jon. She’s spent years being a prisoner of abusers and has finally escaped and been reunited with one family member and it meant the world to her. She now sees a chance to get Rickon back, and her home as well. So she is going for it and using whatever means she has to do so.

    Having shared their experiences with each other, Sansa was hardly likely to tell Jon she’d met up with the man who had handed her over to the Bolton’s in the first place. He wouldn’t have let her go, but she needed to go and she is using the situation to her advantage.

    That’s how I see it at the moment, even though I could be wrong.

  330. Myrmidon,

    What experience does Sansa have in politics? When has she ever had an opportunity to take any part in politics? On the other hand, Jon has spent time managing the Wall by himself. And in the books, he has shown to have an excellent understanding of Northern people and politics, which has been totally ignored on the show. This reason doesn’t stick, imo.

  331. Myrmidon,

    I’m sorry, but just because Sansa told a lie to Jon that will probably bite her in the ass, it doesn’t mean she’s a savvy player like Margaery or Olenna. She has a long way to go. She has no leadership or even political experience (at least Jon has dealt with some of these lords on the show via raven messages, has experience in leading/fighting/preparing for sieges/administration etc.). She finally shows a bit of assertiveness and everyone is acting like she’s the second coming of Tywin and should have all the lands, titles, and castles in the kingdom lol. I love Sansa (and the Stark kids), but everyone acts like her shit don’t stink. Jon can’t sit this one out. They will both have to speak up and answer for their actions.

  332. LordDavos,

    It’s exactly how I want that flashback to happen. I hope we watch Jon’s reaction this season. I also hope we have more Starks gathering before the Long Night begins.

  333. ghost of winterfell:
    Myrmidon,

    What experience does Sansa have in politics? When has she ever had an opportunity to take any part in politics? On the other hand, Jon has spent time managing the Wall by himself. And in the books, he has shown to have an excellent understanding of Northern people andpolitics, which has been totally ignored on the show. This reason doesn’t stick, imo.

    She hasn’t handled many situations by herself but she stayed for a long time in Kings Landing and she did observe how people handled things, I am not saying that she is as good as the major players of the game but she won’t be dealing with them , she will be dealing with minor nobles who may or may not be good at it. She has some skills for that, even Tyrion commented on it back in season2 “Lady Stark you may yet outlive us all”. Also managing a fort or a military organisation is different than a house or a state, it requires a combination of different skills . Mind you I’ve never read the books so my opinion relies solely on what I’ve seen on the show :).

  334. I would like to add that my body has been ready for Bear Island and the She Bears of House Mormomt since episode 1! Thank you in advance D and D and Bryan!

    😀 😀

  335. Halfman,

    Its not unprecedented for women to lead in the north. House Mormont is lead by women since Jorah been exiled. Sansa being a woman wouldn’t be a problem within itself. Her marraiges certainly. So I don’t see no one bringing up her being a woman is what I’m saying

  336. Flayed Potatoes:
    Myrmidon,

    I’m sorry, but just because Sansa told a lie to Jon that will probably bite her in the ass, it doesn’t mean she’s a savvy player like Margaery or Olenna. She has a long way to go. She has no leadership or even political experience (at least Jon has dealt with some of these lords on the show via raven messages, has experience in leading/fighting/preparing for sieges/administration etc.). She finally shows a bit of assertiveness and everyone is acting like she’s the second coming of Tywin and should have all the lands, titles, and castles in the kingdom lol. I love Sansa (and the Stark kids), but everyone acts like her shit don’t stink. Jon can’t sit this one out. They will both have to speak up and answer for their actions.

    Like i said above, having managed a military organisation doesn’t mean that one can d eal with state affairs just as succesfully, think about it how many generals have made great state leaders in the past? Eisenhower was decent at best and mind you he was more than a good administrator when he was head of Allied command .
    I’ve never mentioned her name alone, i specifically said Sansa and Davos -who is way more experienced at negotiating . But it seems to me that whenever one writes her name, other people assume that the he thinks of her like Olenna v3.0 and it’s funny because I am not even a Sansa fan . Anyhow we can all agree that cometh the end of the season we will find out if her attempts at playing the game of thrones at a local level will be succesfull or not :).

  337. Flayed Potatoes:
    Kit Hairyton,

    To be fair, Sansa can’t exactly take center stage either because she’ll get called out for marrying into the Bolton family. She’s also a wanted criminal for Joffrey’s poisoning. And it’s not like she’ll be doing the actual fighting. Both Jon and Sansa have strikes against them. Jon isn’t the only one with issues in the group. What’s stopping any of the Northern lords to capture her and hand her over to Ramsay or Cersei and avoid trouble?

    Jon also knows they don’t have the numbers, which is why he’s reluctant. He doesn’t want to die again. He’s not an idiot.

    BranTheBlessed,

    Regarding 2 and 3:

    Aemon has king’s blood, so you can argue Jon’s sending him away to protect him from Melisandre. It’s another reason for the baby swap (though I liked how this made Jon into a bit of a grey character).

    Aemon isn’t getting any younger and they will need a new maester. Sam isn’t of much use at the Wall, since he can’t fight. Sending Sam to train as a maester and learn about the WW is actually a good long-term decision. I was a bit annoyed the show changed things and made it seem like Sam’s decision.

    Agree, the changes in Jon once he is given power ( as Lord Commander ) are far more pronounced in the books. Reading his and Daenarys chapters one after the other, you feel the storylines-atleast from the character pov- are sort of similar . Which is why I think asoiaf fans like to parallel Jon and Daenarys while the Unsullied think they are nothing alike.

    D&D have made Jon far more softer and Daenarys far more forceful (which is why people can’t stand her guts )-both extremes, but really both characters are somewhere in the middle in the books, IMO.

  338. Beer Island,

    Fair point. I agree, it’s essentially her marriages that will be their issue.
    As the upcoming battle is known as the battle of the bastards, I still think it’s not Sansa they rally behind, it’s Jon.

  339. BranTheBlessed: when in reality Jon is as harsh and unforgiving a leader as much as Daenerys

    Dany crucified 163 people based on their class, gender, and a general suspicion of guilt. Neither TV Jon nor Book Jon has done anything remotely like that.

  340. Myrmidon,

    The NW is a military organization of sorts, but its day to day running (together with the castles that are still manned) is not that different from that of any other castle or stronghold.

    Also, the Starks will need to rebuild their own army once it’s all said and done (all the other houses have one).

  341. BranTheBlessed: Agree, the changes in Jon once he is given power ( as Lord Commander ) are far more pronounced in the books. Reading his and Daenarys chapters one after the other, you feel the storylines-atleast from the character pov- are sort of similar . Which is why I think asoiaf fans like to parallel Jon and Daenarys while the Unsullied think they are nothing alike.

    D&D have made Jon far more softer and Daenarys far more forceful (which is why people can’t stand her guts )-both extremes, but really both characters are somewhere in the middle in the books, IMO.

    I think there are two reasons Jon comes off harsher in the books:

    1: He has command of a lot more men, hundreds vs dozens. The show’s small-world is much more personal, while Book!Jon has to lead a large organization in a much more impersonal manner

    2: Book!Jon faces a wider variety of ethical choices, and his enemies within the Watch are not so clear-cut baddies. On the show, Jon was right and the traitors were wrong, period. The book is much more ambiguous, and it is possible to judge Jon wrong, or at least be sympathetic to the arguments.

  342. BranTheBlessed,

    Huh. (#4 ugh) Well it seems there’s been a bit of glossing over the negatives in regards to Jon (and Tyrion from what I hear) and perhaps downplaying the positives of Dany . But they do need to simplify characters personalities/ actions for one in order to guide the audience, in a visual medium like this with bunch of grey characters, so that we know who to get behind and root for (these are obviously going to be the heroes in this story). It’s more satisfying when the hero(ine) is someone you think very highly of. What does their choice say about Dany’s future role?

  343. Flayed Potatoes,

    I understand what you’re saying but the Night’s Watch existence will not be compromised no matter how bad the LC is at diplomacy and politics, right? Sure their numbers might suffer as a result but they will continue to be. On the other hand a house or a kingdom can be driven to non existence by it’s leader’s decisions, lack of diplomatic or political skills,etc. So there is a small safety net as far as decisions go .

    They will need to convince their former vassals to follow them first in order to have an army to build and organise , and given how the current events went well that will be a good job . To be completely honest with you if they were to be more than succesful then they would need someone like Tyrion to do the talking, and since they don’t have him it will be a difficult task . Thing is the difficulty of their endeavour makes it even more interesting and I as a viewer am excited to see how it will all play out tomorrow!

  344. Kit Hairyton,
    Honestly, just cos he’s not had a Craster’s mission to give him some early season action.

    Naw that’s not it 🙂 But you shouldn’t let other people’s viewpoint on something trivial be completely irritating to you.

  345. LF said five words to Sansa and had her hooked again. Your brothers army, half brother. She goes righ back to CB and lies to Jon. She hasn’t changed since season one.
    1. Trust the wrong people.
    2. Get missed treated by them.
    3. Believes them when they say their sorry.
    4. Gets abused some more.
    5. Believe it when someone new comes along and says trust me.
    6. Gets a backbone for five seconds.
    7. Then we start all over.
    Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
    And when she goes back to LF for help, I going to turn off my tv, and be done with Game of Thrones.
    I’m sick of the all the story’s with giant plot holes in them and the viewer is just supposed to ignore them. Except for a few shining moment the writing has really gone down hill. That’s my two cents.
    One last thing, Sansa used to be my favourite character.

  346. Has any1 noticed that Jaime stands on the Castle side of that bridge when the BF says “as long as I’m standing the war is not over”?

  347. HelloThere,
    So.. your hating on Sansa because… of your own speculations?

    Lol. It was said tongue in cheek. I thought that was obvious. But yeah, no I’m not “hating” on her just yet. But I agree, characters that are simply interesting even if they’re not lovable can sometimes be the most fun to watch.

  348. The Winter of Bastardfell,

    That’s plausible, but we still have a paying client who did not get delivery on her contract. Unless Jaqen gave Arya a vial of a harmless substance, and made up the contract as a test.

  349. Myrmidon,

    The NW was a mess long before Jon even joined. If anything, getting the Wildlings means they can man the other castles and shows he can see the bigger picture. The books go into far more detail to explain the same thing (he gets a lot of other things done; the show is just focused on the Wildling issue).

    I doubt Jon’s decisions will lead to the Starks’ extinction. Unlike in the NW he has some solid advisers here. If LF causes trouble, I’d say Sansa would be blamed too because she didn’t warn anyone.

  350. Chad Brick: Dany crucified 163 people based on their class, gender, and a general suspicion of guilt. Neither TV Jon nor Book Jon has done anything remotely like that.

    Yeah, that was one of the darker things Daenerys did but when you think about it from her pov- She was fighting a war for the oppressed slaves where her enemies were the masters-each one guilty as the other. Did it matter to the Masters the class, gender of the slaves they had or the ones they crucified themselves?

    It was not my intention to comment on who of John/Deanerys is more saintly, but more on how D&D have influenced how the character is received by GoT fandom. They’ve shown Daenerys’ questionable decisions more so than Jon’s own, IMO.

  351. It doesn’t seem to me Sansa is trusting of LF anymore. I think her days of being manipulated by him are over.If anything she will turn the tables on him. I think she kept Jon in the dark about their meeting because of how she thought Jon would re-act, not as a “I’m a greedy bitch and I want it all for myself” gesture.

    just my 2cents on Sansa…

  352. BranTheBlessed:
    D&D have made Jon far more softer and Daenarys far more forceful (which is why people can’t stand her guts )-both extremes, but really both characters are somewhere in the middle in the books, IMO.

    Mmm, I saw Jon as a far better ruler in the books, too, with Dany doing pretty well until she hit Meereen and started ruling. And then she seemed to me to be making mistake after mistake. Jon made hard decisions, true, but I agreed with all of his very tough choices. I couldn’t relate to Dany’s decisions at all.

    As far as the Battle of the Bitches goes, I’m okay with Jon letting others talk. Listening makes Jon a better ruler. In this world, there are talkers, and there are doers. Jon is a doer. Words are just words. Words are wind. Ass-kicking. Now that’s worth more gold than a Lannister can shit. Speak softly and carry a long claw. That’s what a good leader will do. He’s not frightened to share or even let others steal the limelight for an episode or two.

  353. Dee,

    On her own maybe not, but in this cast full of excellent actors I think she’s one of the least convincing, sorry. I have a soft spot for Emilia (don’t know why lol) so I don’t enjoy criticising her performance, but I don’t think she’s nailed it 100% of the time.

  354. ygritte:
    BranTheBlessed,

    Huh. (#4 ugh) Well it seems there’s been a bit of glossing over the negatives in regards to Jon (and Tyrion from what I hear) and perhaps downplaying the positives of Dany . But they do need to simplify characters personalities/ actions for one in order to guide the audience, in a visual medium like this with bunch of grey characters, so that we know who to get behind and root for (these are obviously going to be the heroes in this story). It’s more satisfying when the hero(ine) is someone you think very highly of. What does their choice say about Dany’s future role?

    I still think GoT is one of the best adaptions there is but yeah, some characters have benefited and others suffered. As you point out, Tyrion has benefited greatly, especially in his final exchanges with his brother. Personally liked the show’s take in that case.

    Tbf this once again comes down to each individual’s perception on what he/she thinks is right/wrong. Maybe they think Deanerys’ portrayed heroically is what suits her character the best, some love that while others think its overkill. The same with Jon and his good nature. How do you please everyone in a fandom as huge as GoT?

  355. ygritte,

    Well to be honest you cannot compare to the great actors of the show but her acting is on par with Sophie Maisie Kit and the likes of the younger newer actors

    But she shouldn’t even be compared to likes of Lena, Peter , Liam, Stephen .. and even some of Daenys support cast such as lain

  356. I like Emilia a lot, and while shes inconsistent, she has incredible moments (hence her 2 emmy nominations)… and tbh.. ive not had a problem with her performance since season 2.. She certainly knows how to sell gibberish languages

    and can we plz stop this Dany/Emilia talk.. she isn’t even in the episode…

    Hope we get lots of Cersei/Olenna/Margaery this episode.

  357. BranTheBlessed,

    Exactly. There’s noooo way they could please all in such a huge varied fandom. Best to just please themselves and in turn there will be a good sized percentage that will agree 🙂 Just look at what a perfect candidate we have in Donald Trump and tens of thousands Americans still have an issue with him!

    🙂

  358. Flayed Potatoes,

    I wasn’t talking about Jon specifically, just about the different demands different positions have when it comes to leaderships, me being dyslectic can be a bit of a problem in conveying what i am thinking into words.

    One will have to bit a simpleton in order to blame Jon for the state of the NW , now as Wimsey likes to state he was put into a damned if you will ,damned if you dont situation when he let the Wildings through. Like you said they are in dire need of men to inhabit these castles and defend the Wall when the WW come, he’s smart so he made the right call but he failed to see the effects it would have on some members of the NW who weren’t that fond of him in the first place.. Hence my prediction that he might not be as good at microlevel politics-mind you not many great military leaders are , even Alexander the Great made some dubious political decisions during the later stages of his life . No one would expect him to be, most great players of the game suck at tactical decisions and vice versa.

    I was merely pointing the differences between the two situations ,I wasn’t saying that Jon will suck as head of House Stark , he might be the best thing ever to happen to them .

  359. Dee:
    ygritte,

    Well to be honest you cannot compare to the great actors of the show but her acting is on par with Sophie Maisie Kit and the likes of the younger newer actors

    But she shouldn’t even be compared to likes of Lena, Peter and even some of Daenys support cast such as lain

    I would dare say Maisie is a little above those younger, newer actors. That kid’s nuanced acting is really remarkable. Sophie has improved a lot and starting to rise above the rest, too. 🙂 Her facial expressions in this episode’s preview alone are on point, IMO.

    Lena, Peter, Charles… well, they’re in a league of their own.

  360. gnarlytarly,

    Tl;dr where’s LF? He’s the important part to this. Not Jon or Sansa or even Ramsay.

    I thought Sansa “lied” for the same reason Brienne “lied” (to Sansa about Sandor). The info was relevant but the “messenger(hound and lf)” was humiliating/distracting to the relevant part. I hope that’s clear. Humiliating and distracting prob are not best words to describe it. Point is I understand and accept the white lie at face value and nothing sinister.

    The whole Vale troop part is weird. There’s this triangle between Ramsay and Sansa’s “war”.

    1) There’s Roose’s alliance with LF. I assume Ramsay is honoring this as the Vale is at Moat Cailin safely (and not getting peppered by arrows).

    2) There’s LF’s alliance with the Crown to retake WF from Ramsay.

    3) LF’s “alliance” with Sansa to protect her from the two alliances mentioned above.

    Aside from the fact that Sansa (and pretty much anyone not named Tyrion or Varys) is way out of her league in determining the depth of LF’s plan and goal, I have an issue with the show exploring Jon and Sansa’s efforts to recruit small numbers to fight Ramsay’s less small forces. In the BotB, the only important player is LF and he’s offscreen.

  361. Dee,

    I do compare her to the other newcomers cause you’re right it wouldn’t be fair otherwise. I do have a feeling from the way I heard she’s directed to act here does stifle her range a bit. I really want to see her in another role. She’s in a movie now that I’m looking forward to watching when it comes to red box or cable.

  362. Sam,

    I would say Maisie Emilia kit Sophie and most of youngins (Isaac, John) have improved significantly from their first seasons and I think they’re all on the same level to some extent – they’ve all had their moments where they shine 🙂

    Obviously I agree that some actors are in a league of their own, the some you mentioned and even some with smaller roles (Diana rigg, aiden gillen, conleth etc)

    We actually have a perfect cast here which is quite difficult to maintain when you have so many characters. Amazing!

  363. HelloThere:

    and can we plz stop this Dany/Emilia talk.. she isn’t even in the episode…

    Oh, is this confirmed? I hope not. I’d like to see her story line move forward fast. Only 4 episodes left for her to pack her bags and sail for Westeros.

  364. ygritte,

    We had one of our fellow watchers watch it last night (ash) and she comment how amazing Emilia is in it

    People who diss Emilia’s acting skills should probably watch that movie and see that it is not her acting but is the role she is given and told to play it that way.

    From the trailer of her new movie you can see that she looks great in it

  365. Icekhione,

    ‘I did what I had to do to survive’ lol that’s some lousy excuse from Lady Lannister-Bolton. Did she marry Ramsay to survive?

    Go back and watch that episode when Sansa and LF are on the hill. He manipulates her thinking that everything will be ok. She trusts him. She didn’t know about Ramsay. Its not an excuse. Its the truth.

  366. Dee:
    Sam,

    We actually have a perfect cast here which is quite difficult to maintain when you have so many characters. Amazing!

    I agree. GOT’s casting department has really done a tremendous job!

  367. ash:
    Icekhione,

    Go back and watch that episode when Sansa and LF are on the hill. He manipulates her thinking that everything will be ok. She trusts him.She didn’t know about Ramsay.Its not an excuse.Its the truth.

    I remember that scene! Sansa was so distraught when she learned about LF’s plan. She didn’t want to go. Great acting by Sophie there, by the way.

  368. Dee:
    ygritte,

    People who diss Emilia’s acting skills should probably watch that movie and see that it is not her acting but is the role she is given and told to play it that way.

    An actor may excel at one role but struggle in another. Then there are some who make any role their own, the truly gifted. Clarke is quite good when she’s playing a normal role but her portrayal of a Queen is less than impressive, for me. Too rigid, too flat, monotonous voicing.

  369. Tycho Nestoris,

    There is no doubt LF is 2 moves ahead of them all. I may be giving Sansa too much credit but LF’s hold on the vail is 100% dependant on Robin Arryn. Sansa knows LF tossed his mother out the Moon Door. She could use that given the chance, if it comes to that. No doubt LF believes he’s controlling all of the chess pieces.

    Does LF know of the WW’s?

    Maybe my “starkfanism” is getting the best of me.

  370. Flayed Potatoes:
    Dee,

    To be fair, she wasn’t that good in the Terminator movie either.

    It’s her Pompeii ?

    In an interview, she said that her “Me Before You” character was herself, really, exactly as she was as a teen. She begged for the role because it was so perfect for her. So this particular role seems to mesh well with who Emilia really is.

  371. Sam,

    Among the younger cast members I’ve always thought Maisie was the stand out but like you I think Sophie is holding her own quite well now. She’s had a few scenes since arriving at CB that really showcase it for me. The little nuances in expression and vocal inflection can sometimes impress me more than rousing speeches or angry outbursts.

  372. gnarlytarly,

    There’s no other witness to Lysa’s death. It would be Sansa’s words vs. LF’s. He could also tell SweetRobin that it’s Sansa who pushed his mother through the moon door.

  373. Might not be a popular opinion but I think Jack Gleeson ( Joffrey ) was brilliant. Just the right amount of crazy lol

  374. BranTheBlessed: An actor may excel at one role but struggle in another. Then there are some who make any role their own, the truly gifted. Clarke is quite good when she’s playing a normal role but her portrayal of a Queen is less than impressive, for me. Too rigid, too flat, monotonous voicing.

    In fairness, I haven’t seen her in anything else but she is absolutely Dany to me. I haven’t been overly impressed with her acting in earlier seasons but she’s grown into the role and now she’s spot on.

    She isn’t as talented as many of the cast I agree but I really cannot see anyone now as Dany except Emelia.

    I’ll probably get jumped on by her fans for saying this but she’s far more attractive in her blond wig than with her real hair. She should go blonde. Shallow? Yeah I know.

  375. ygritte:
    Sam,

    Among the younger cast members I’ve always thought Maisie was the stand out but like you I think Sophie is holding her own quite well now. She’s had a few scenes since arriving at CB that really showcase it for me. The little nuances in expression and vocal inflection can sometimes impress me more than rousing speeches or angry outbursts.

    I know! Those two are GOT’s great finds. 🙂

  376. Dee,

    Book purists are simply the worst. Cogman should just block them all.

    They are simply horrible, sad little people, who do not deserve any respect.
    Those who replied are westeros.org doing, they allowed the toxic vitrol, they even take part in it, to get out of control, just check Linda’s twitter, it is simply horrible.

    You can disagree with any decision they make but that doesn’t give you the right to insult them in that ways. If you hate the show so much, then stop watching and read the books you love.

    But of course they don’t, Linda even makes money of GOT by translating the show in Swedish, and afterwards she proceeds to throw insults, to the writers, directors, actors, absolutly everyone.

  377. BranTheBlessed:
    Might not be a popular opinion but I think Jack Gleeson ( Joffrey ) was brilliant. Just the right amount of crazy lol

    I also happen to think that he’s perfect as Joffrey. He did the “crazy-insecure” really well. 🙂

  378. Dee,

    I’m glad to hear that positive review. I feel bad when young actors who seem like really decent people get bashed all over internet, especially when they’ve just started out and are deemed as lost cause just based on one performance. Impersonal criticism is fine and fair game but I’ve seen some harsh rhetoric in other places on the net. I’m pretty sure the actors aren’t going to these sites and subjecting themselves to that negativity though so that’s a good thing.

  379. gnarlytarly,

    Agreed. How she gets to Sweetrobin or Royce without LF detecting it is the tricky part. I don’t think it comes to that though. Whoever confronts LF in the snow renders it moot imo.

    In the books

    LF is more concerned with prophecy than his show version. I do believe book LF knows of (2nd and 3rd hand) and believes in WW. It’s been mentioned that he also believes in Old Gods because he tries to trick them too?

    I don’t think show LF is concerned with WW. Was he in KL when Thorne brought the wight hand? I remember Tyrion being the only one concerned (inwardly) about “snarks and grumpkins.”

    OT Every time I think of Cersei laighing at Tyrion for being afraid of grumpkins and snarks i chuckle. I find her ignorance quite humorous.

  380. BranTheBlessed,

    Agree, Gleeson was brilliant. So is Maisie, and I quite like Sophie (though I’m not a fan of Sansa). I’m indifferent towards Emilia, I tend to fast forward her scenes when I rewatch the episodes, but mostly because I don’t really care for Dany either way. And I usually rewatch Jon’s scenes several times (Jon being my fav character both in books and show), and I have to admit Kit’s Jon is slowly growing on me. I had a hard time replacing my mental image of Jon, mostly because I imagined him much younger (16-ish) and with straight hair, and Jon’s S2-3 arc was terribly handled IMO. He improved a lot since S4 though. And to be fair, it is much easier to play a crazy character as Joff, or a tomboy like Arya, even a damsel-in-distress like Sansa, than an introvertal one as Jon, who never shows his emotions. It’s quite easy to dismiss the actor as having a wooden face or not being able to act, when it’s really just a character trait.

  381. Halfman,

    Most people have said they like her better in the natural brown hair but like you I think she really rocks the blonde. It gives her this angelic look or something 🙂

  382. ygritte,

    I agree with you

    I just think Emilia is playing the queen like she is supposed to

    When she is angry it gets to me
    When she is sad (jorah, her dragons) it gets to me
    When she is happy it’ gets to me — ex convo with selmy about her brother

    I guess we are all different but Emilia as Daeny works perfectly for me

  383. ygritte:
    Halfman,

    Most people have said they like her better in the natural brown hair but like you I think she really rocks the blonde. It gives her this angelic look or something ?

    She doesn’t have natural hair which is particularly flattering. Personally I know what that feels like. She’s very striking blonde, it really, really suits her I think.

  384. Dee,

    They don’t have one, just look at Cogmans twitter all those replies with ”book vs. show” pics, those are from 4chan, if you don’t know what this is, it’s for the better.

    Not to say the insults are childish and most are outright homophobic and/or racist. This tells you a great deal about these people.
    These are petty people who don’t deserve to be bothered with, do not give them importance, that is what they like the most, just let them rot in their hate filled places.

    Like Brienne, or rather Renly, said:”They are nasty little s**ts, and nasty little s**its aren’t worth crying for”.

  385. Sam: I agree. GOT’s casting department has really done a tremendous job!

    Dee:
    Sam,

    I would say Maisie Emilia kit Sophie and most of youngins (Isaac, John) have improved significantly from their first seasons and I think they’re all on the same level to some extent – they’ve all had their moments where they shine ?

    Obviously I agree that some actors are in a league of their own, the some you mentioned and even some with smaller roles (Diana rigg, aiden gillen, conleth etc)


    We actually have a perfect cast here which is quite difficult to maintain when you have so many characters. Amazing!

    <

    I’m sorry, I disagree. Largely yes but the actor playing Euron is beyond awful.

  386. Aszusz:
    BranTheBlessed,
    And to be fair, it is much easier to play a crazy character as Joff, or a tomboy like Arya, even a damsel-in-distress like Sansa, than an introvertal one as Jon, who never shows his emotions. It’s quite easy to dismiss the actor as having a wooden face or not being able to act, when it’s really just a character trait.

    This is why while I’m frustrated about the lack of treatment of Jon’s death and resurrection, I’m appreciative of the chance to see Jon emote more in his scenes this season. Yes he’s always been brooding and introverted since S1 but now he’s added new dimensions to his “broodingness”. His wounded, despondent, hesitant look was convincing to me. Can’t help but feel for him.

  387. Dee:
    ygritte,

    Well to be honest you cannot compare to the great actors of the show but her acting is on par with Sophie Maisie Kit and the likes of the younger newer actors

    But she shouldn’t even be compared to likes of Lena, Peter , Liam, Stephen .. and even some of Daenys support cast such as lain

    I would say Maisie is better than her contemporaries. Sophie is getting there and imo she has been the best performer this season so far, including the more experienced actors. Kit and Emilia are comparable, they both have had their weak moments and strong moments, even though right now I would put Kit a bit higher than Emilia. Still, I think both of them have improved vastly this season, especially Kit. Emilia has been good in every episode except ep 6, imo. Her performance in this last episode did not work for me, at all.

  388. Mihnea:
    Halfman,

    I thought he was good in the KM and amazing on the bridge scene.

    He isn’t the Euron you wanted, that’s all.

    I disagree. Many of the cast are not how I envisaged them but they are able to portray the character in their own way which works whether they are what I wanted or not. Mr “Oooo Ahhh, I’m Popeye the Sailor” …no. Sorry, he’s miscast, and I’m far from alone in that view.

    He’s exaggerating everything. Perhaps it’s him trying too hard but it doesn’t work.

  389. Dee:
    Halfman,

    Okay lol

    Forgive me, I’m being picky. Essentially you’re right, it is an amazing cast!! They’ve done a great job considering the expectations when you think about it.

  390. Halfman,

    Funny, thing that was my exact thought off Euron in the books.
    And I’m far from alone on this……..

    You just didn’t get the Euron you wanted, that is all there is here.

    I will stop here, I have no intention of continuing this discussion, not with this kind of ”debating”:

    Halfman:

    “Oooo Ahhh, I’m Popeye the Sailor”

  391. Sam: This is why while I’m frustrated about the lack of treatment of Jon’s death and resurrection, I’m appreciative of the chance to see Jon emote more in his scenes this season. Yes he’s always been brooding and introverted since S1 but now he’s added new dimensions to his “broodingness”. His wounded, despondent, hesitant look was convincing to me.Can’t help but feel for him.

    Yup, he was really good in Ep 3 when he was given the chance to perform. And then the whole resurrection thing was swept aside. I do hope he gets more good material in the coming episodes.

  392. Mihnea,

    Well that’s what sprung to mind when I watched him so given my powers of description could do with improving, it was the easiest way to get across how he comes over.

    You’re right though, I didn’t get the Euron the books conjured up but on the other hand, that aside, I didn’t get someone I could believe was a pirate, whatever sort of pirate that was. I just see a caricature version and very ham acting.

  393. Sam: I would dare say Maisie is a little above those younger, newer actors. That kid’s nuanced acting is really remarkable. Sophie has improved a lot and starting to rise above the rest, too. Her facial expressions in this episode’s preview alone are…

    You don’t have to dare to say. Maisie has been brilliant from her very first scene. Remember her shooting the arrow and the gloating little bow and giggle. She was light years ahead of Sophie. The first few seasons I saw Sophie as the weakest main character; no tone, no inflection, little change in or use of expression. They could have done much worse though and she has improved in the last couple years, but I don’t know that she’s moved up the ranks any for me. Her emotions range just isn’t very broad, but some people are like that. She still tends to deliver lines very flat but I think she’s working on it. She doesn’t have a real ‘lively’ normal speaking voice to begin with when you listen to her outside of the show.

  394. Queen Shireen:
    The Winter of Bastardfell,

    That’s plausible, but we still have a paying client who did not get delivery on her contract. Unless Jaqen gave Arya a vial of a harmless substance, and made up the contract as a test.

    Yes, I’m wondering about that myself. Seems to me, the faceless men are known to be the best assassins in the world. This wouldn’t be the case if they didn’t complete the missions for which they are contracted. And if it was a fake hit, Arya just accused the Sansa actress in front of the entire troupe of wanting Lady Crane dead. Can’t wait to see this storyline to its conclusion. I’m hoping for some explanations before Arya heads to Westeros.

  395. ghost of winterfell,
    In ep3, he asked Davos and Mel why he came back, why him. I think he’s still asking himself that. He’s not verbalizing it, but he’s thinking it and that’s contributing to him coming off as unsure (of himself). You could tell in his actions and expressions. Even in scenes like when Sansa gave him the coat and he said “thank you, Sansa” and when he told Edd “don’t knock it down while I’m gone”, there’s weariness and sadness in his voice and in the brief smiles he gave them. I’m still hopeful that he’d get out of this funk soon enough to beat Ramsay. Nonetheless, Kit’s acting this pained, irresolute person really well. 🙂

  396. Aszusz:
    BranTheBlessed,

    It’s quite easy to dismiss the actor as having a wooden face or not being able to act, when it’s really just a character trait.

    This. Kit Harrington nails the character Jon Snow. If anything, the show have rewritten more emotions for his scenes but asoiaf Jon is stoic and serious.

  397. Clob,

    Maisie has been brilliant from her very first scene. Remember her shooting the arrow and the gloating little bow and giggle.

    And that scene when the whole family are waiting for the king and she’s hiding in a wagon wearing a helmet, and giggling. Yeah, I think she was probably the top of the kids. But they were all amazing (I rewatched all the seasons the last few months and its just amazing how they have all grown as actors)

  398. Mihnea:
    Halfman</strong

    Mihnea:
    Halfman

    Mihnea:
    Halfman,

    Funny, thing that was my exact thought off Euron in the books.
    And I’m far from alone on this……..

    You just didn’t get the Euron you wanted, that is all there is here.

    I will stop here, I have no intention of continuing this discussion, not with this kind of ”debating”:

    I will stop here, I have no intention of continuing this discussion, not with this kind of ”debating”:

    Not overly keen on the superior tone tbh but I won’t take it personally. We disagree that’s all. It’s only a story after all! Not real life. Moving on ….

  399. Dinklage is boss, though. That bit in episode 2 where he’s taking to Kit en route to Castle Black remains my favorite scene in the series.

  400. BranTheBlessed:
    Dinklage is boss, though. That bit in episode 2 where he’s taking to Kit en route to Castle Black remains my favorite scene in the series.

    I love that scene. Do you think it was foreshadowing the necessary connection in the future? Like him designing Bran’s saddle and being kind to Sansa when they were forced to marry?

  401. It must be the slow season in Season 6 at the moment ……. On the eve of a new episode, it’s actor discussion (or dissing?drooling?) time here at WotW! 😉 Personally, I want to know what happens in Episode 8 now, since we have an outline of what happens in 7. And also storylines besides the North and KL in the rest of the season. For example, Arya and how does she leave Essos? Where does she land, what does she do? How long are we going to spend in Volantis? What’s up with Tyrion and Varys and where do they end up? When is Daenerys going to go back to Meereen? How many of the Essos crew will die by the end of the season? Oldtown?

    Flayed Potatoes: To be fair, she wasn’t that good in the Terminator movie either.

    It’s her Pompeii

    “Acting” skills are subjective. Not having watched any of these three movies, but just going from the overall Boxoffice, it seems that Kit’s Pompeii, Emilia’s Terminator and Sophie’s (though a side-role) X-Men, all underperformed. But good that these three young actors got the summer blockbuster type movies out of the way…… 😉

  402. Kay,

    After 900 comments in the photos post and over 500 comments here, what more could be left to discuss?.
    And yeah, they need to release the synopsis for ep 8 soon. Surely we will get that before the preview tomorrow!

  403. Halfman: I love that scene. Do you think it was foreshadowing the necessary connection in the future? Like him designing Bran’s saddle and being kind to Sansa when they were forced to marry?

    True, I don’t think its a mere coincidence that every Stark was shown to initially dislike but then gradually come to trust and even respect Tryion. From Catelyn to Bran, all of them.

  404. BranTheBlessed: True, I don’t think its a mere coincidence that every Stark was shown to initially dislike but then gradually come to trust and even respect Tryion. From Catelyn to Bran, all of them.

    That’s my thinking too. At the end of the day surely a united front is what’s needed against the undead army?

    The WW were defeated way back. How? That question has never been addressed unless someone can tell me otherwise.

  405. ygritte,

    I really doubt that will be the case long term. For all the worrying and complaining you’re doing (not unjustified, of course) about Jon and his arc, you need to remember how important he is. We’re not just going to forget Jon Snow exists. So if Sansa is stepping up because she (rightfully) gets called out about her history, including willingly marrying Ramsay, well, that’s important too. And I think Tormund vouching for Jon as it was shown in the previews is incredibly powerful.

    There is a strength in characters that have OTHERS speak on their behalf – and sorry, my bias, but unlike Dany who has to repeatedly list her titles before roasting people. People believe in Jon and want to fight for him. They don’t need to be conquered to do so.

    Having said that, I have NO doubt that we’ll see a lot of important Jon moments by the end of the season, NOT just battle related.

    I have no idea what your spoilers mean or if that’s even true, but I still will wait till the episodes are over before passing judgement. I read the Sansa line about Jon being a bastard before I saw the show and I was so annoyed until I watched it and it was clearly not as people were portraying it. I had major problems with her actions but that wasn’t one of them – spoilers don’t give you the full context.

    And she’s not some deranged wicked witch. She pushed Jon to war because Ramsay had Rickon. If she’s saying that Rickon is dead, it’s either because that’s what she believes Ramsay would do or someone (LF?) told her that was true. Or she hears the Umbers killed Shaggydog or something.
  406. Dee,

    Yeah I agree with you, too. But we should keep in mind that there are still 4 big episodes left and I truly think we’ll see some epic Jon stuff (excluding the battle). SO HYYYPED. Who is your favorite character, people? Mine is Jon hands down.

  407. I like Emilia as Dany a lot. My ONLY problem is when she’s making her big epic speeches – something about her acting in those scenes strikes me as false… Otherwise, I think she’s perfectly fine. On par with the other young actors in the show.

  408. orange,

    Agree.

    Bastardbowl will be in episode 9, the aftermath of the battle and the new situation in the North will be in episode 10. This will have to focus on Jon and Sansa, their future. The Jon-centric episode of the season must also have Tower of Joy, and we know Robert Aramayo will appear next in ep10. I still don’t think Jon will know his true parentage in this season, but the viewers and Bran might.
  409. aabe,

    I agree. I don’t think he’ll find out about

    his true parents this season.

    Maybe he’ll meet with Bran in S07E01-03 and he’ll tell him?

  410. I hope we watch Ghost tomorrow gathering the support of Northerners. He is the living Stark Sigil.

  411. gnarlytarly,

    Sansa knows LF tossed his mother out the Moon Door. She could use that given the chance, if it comes to that. No doubt LF believes he’s controlling all of the chess pieces

    .

    I am so waiting for her to use this…..

    Kay,

    It must be the slow season in Season 6 at the moment ……. On the eve of a new episode, it’s actor discussion (or dissing?drooling?) time here at WotW!

    Hee no,its that we’ve already had discussions in like three different posts the last few days and are running out of things to say! Tho we always manage to say more 🙂 Back up to the start of this post and you’ll find lots of the discussion of that same kind you are looking for 🙂

  412. Mihnea:
    Dee,

    Book purists are simply the worst. Cogman should just block them all.

    They are simply horrible, sad little people, who do not deserve any respect.
    Those who replied are westeros.org doing, they allowed the toxic vitrol, they even take part in it, to get out of control,just check Linda’s twitter, it is simply horrible.

    You can disagree with any decision they make but that doesn’t give you the right to insult them in that ways. If you hate the show so much, then stop watching and read the books you love.

    But of course they don’t, Linda even makes money of GOT by translating the show in Swedish, and afterwards she proceeds to throw insults, to the writers, directors, actors, absolutly everyone.

    Dear Moderators:

    Hate-filled posts like this should be deleted, and repeat offenders banned. There’s no reason for anyone to insert crap like this in the middle of a discussion about the relative quality of the actors.

  413. Kay,

    Sophie was brilliant as Jean Grey. The film may be underperforming against it’s predecessors but Pompeii was a flop as was the Terminator film. It’s still a prequel film, and it’ll probably reach 500 mil at the box office. Of course it’s part of a franchise so some success was to be expected. I think Sophie may be the new female face of the franchise going forward actually.

    Both Sophie and Maisie are brilliant as Arya and Sansa, like I can’t envision anyone else in their respective roles. Sophie is the standout for me this season, and of course the brilliant Lena.

    Side note, can’t wait for Sansa to betray Jon, it’s been spoken into existence!!

  414. Chad Brick,

    This. Please moderators, help restore a more friendly environment.
    People who go on about how “book purists” are “horrible, sad little people, who deserve no respect” should be banned, or at the very least receive some sort of a warning. We shouldn’t have people being so rude and insulting and hateful.

  415. Kay,

    Well, I saw Pompeii and Terminator, and I wasn’t necessarily watching them for the acting. LOL! Sometimes I like a good escape. Neither movie was really terrible, but neither was very good. If you’ve seen one Terminator you’ve seen them all.

    The problem I had with Pompeii is that I’d read the book ages ago, long before I heard they would make a movie. The book was good. I really enjoyed it. I like historical fiction. But the movie shredded the plot in the book and was simply a vehicle for special effects.

    Kit looked good, but there really was no acting required. It was pretty bad and it could’ve been a decent movie. I saw two other films of Kit’s. Testament of Youth &
    MI-5.

    Testament of Youth was decent. Kit played a supporting role. The movie was about Alicia Vikander’s character. But MI-5 was a surprise. It was a spy thriller and Kit was excellent, the movie was well paced, well plotted, and enjoyable.

  416. Roz’s Ghost,

    I actually watched MI-5 today and loved it. It was so intense and had a lot of intrigue. Testament of Youth was also very good (I love a good period drama).

  417. Roz’s Ghost,

    Pompeii was rather forgettable. Not so much because of performances but because it was a movie simply created to take a historical catastrophe to the big screen. In all honesty, Adewale was a total badass as Atticus in it though. It’s too bad they couldn’t cast him in a better/bigger role in GoT than Malko. Or at least given him more to do and less of a punk death.

  418. Rhaenys Stark,

    Ellie Kendrick (Meera) said in a interview that ‘they are still a long way from home’ (something of that nature). With 3ER and all the Children dead, the only home they can go is South of the Wall.

    So eventually, Bran/Jon reunion will happen. I want Bran to be the Lord of Winterfell. He can name Jon or Sansa as heirs, but Bran is better suited to rule Winterfell than either of them.

    Another idea: is that if Ellie meant they are going towards Meera’s home, that’s where most awaited character aka Howland Reed is residing.

  419. BigMac,

    I think that Emilia plays ‘the underdog’ much better than ‘the boss’. A bit like Dany’s character. Or maybe it is the character that comes out good as oppressed person rather than as the ruler.

  420. Mag:
    We might learn more about the Faceless Men true intentions with Arya.

    The FM could let Arya go now, intending to keep her as an agent in deep cover, available in some future need, but not an active assassin now. And Arya would not even know that until the knock on the door.

  421. aabe: Ellie Kendrick (Meera) said in a interview that ‘they are still a long way from home’ (something of that nature). With 3ER and all the Children dead, the only home they can go is South of the Wall.

    They are in terms of actual distances in the books, but in relation to other locations not so much. They really aren’t that far in the show or books if we want to call home just a place with relative safety and people that would know them, or could get word to those that do.
    On their trek north they went under at the Nightfort, which is the eight stronghold along the Wall from west to east. Castle Black is the eleventh. Craster’s Keep is pretty much straight north of the Nightfort, but the 3ER’s cave is supposedly east of there within the Haunted Forest, essentially the entire area between there and the Bay of Seals off the east coast. In the show it feels like none of the castles other than Castle Black are manned, and there’s just that altercation in the episode Jon commands Janos Slynt to take command of Greyguard (4th w-e). If they’re quite a ways east of CB there could be little help.

    In the books three castles are manned, second w-e, eleventh (CB) and nineteenth (Eastwatch-by-the-Sea), but when Jon took command he started making moves to re-garrison the rest of the castles which would have gotten them assistance quicker.

    However, Castle Black is closer to them than the Nightfort, and in the relation to how far characters travel in the show pretty quickly they’re actually really close, as in, they could walk up to the gate at the Wall in the first scene tomorrow and it’s still more believable than Littlefinger’s travels.
    Maybe it’s my perception, but they’ve kind of made it feel and look like on the show that Bran and company traveled to the “North Pole” to get to the 3ER. In ‘reality’ they should be closer to Castle Black than anywhere else, and much closer than Jon and all the Wildlings were when they supposedly walked from their ships to CB.

  422. Dee:
    Markus Stark,

    Actually, Markus, I have had no issues with any return, and I would love if the Hound returns I am just saying we shouldn’t get our hopes up cause it may be too good to be true

    Yep,

    its our ol’ mate The Hound coming back for sure 🙂 Just hope he’s the same old Sandor who loves his chickens still says: ‘Fuck the King’ hehehe 😀 😀 😀
  423. Before Edmure

    surrenders the castle to Jaime, Brynden escapes by swimming under the portcullis that had been slightly raised at the Water Gate. He presumably swims down the Red Fork and his current whereabouts are unknown. Due to his escape, Brynden has been declared an outlaw.

    A Dance with Dragons

    When Jaime resolves the siege of Raventree, he is told by Lord Tytos Blackwood that the Blackfish has not come to Raventree Hall.
  424. AFfC material

    Predict we have Jaimie re-take Riverrun as a setup to that Frey Lannisters celebration, but there is more to come as far as the whole RL goes. Everyone slags it off in the books but I’m actually excited for it, probably as much to do with Jaimie and the Blackfish and the fact I like the show Blackfish so much

    Stark tour of the North should be interesting. People will remember that Deepwood Motte has only just been re-taken from the Ironborn in the show

    On the one hand not sure if we’ve seen the Glovers banners in BoB trailers. At the same time given DM was taken the same time as Winterfell by the Ironborn they will be more understanding

    Tricky to say, they could go through a setback at first attempt and then begin succeeding in getting people to their side (starting with Mormonts)?

    People have spoken of character development to Jon and Sansa, think the CD for both will be fleshed out via these support campaigns, eg the preview shows Tormund speaking of how “Jon died for us”, but we can easily see behind the scnes of this speech Jon talking to Tormund about how the experience has affected him

    The body language of Sansa and Lord Glover is interesting, naturally she is going to be questioned about being Sansa Lannister turned Lady Bolton now etc and obviously she has to talk her way through how she is Sansa Stark and her own person etc as a matter of character development

    Let’s not forget Davos and Melisandre who has been deeply in the background,

  425. As far as “the Gravedigger”

    If Sandor (not the Hound) does return, I hope he is silent and never says anything!

    I had previously thought we would have Lancel vs SRS, as it nicely reflects the tragedy that Cersei is destroying House Lannister and undermining the integrity and honour of the KG etc

    But I think Cleganebowl is a possibility, eg Sandors fight vs Beric will be a lead-in, eg Sandor has found peace on the Quiet Isle but rather than getting butcher revenge facing SRS is more about overcoming his experience, eg the way to overcome SRS will be to adopt Berics and Thoros tactic of lighting his sword alight with WIldfire, which would be terrifying for him to be in such close proximity but he is wielding the sword, eg taking control of his fear and facing and overcoming what made him such a bitter person etc

    So from that perspective, Cleganebowl can make sense character development wise

    Would expect it to take place in “no one”.

  426. Tycho Nestoris,

    I seriously doubt that LF has any clue what is happening north of the Wall. He is extremely well informed about what happens in Kings Landing for one important reason: men talk when they are happy. I was once (10+ years ago!) a proponent of the idea that LF was an agent of the White Walkers: but I think that the time has long since come and gone where it should have been introduced that the Walkers use human agents.

    LF’s game is something yet again different. Quite frankly, I sometimes wonder if he is not entirely sane: he seems to delight in sewing chaos.

    ash: She trusts him. She didn’t know about Ramsay. Its not an excuse. Its the truth.

    Well, there is no reason why she should have known about Ramsay. Her brother did not know about Ramsay. The other northern lords did not know about Ramsay. Roose was very good at keeping secrets, it seems.

    However, what Sansa did was tactically sound enough. By marrying an elevated bastard (who presumably would be easily cowed and controlled, because this is a society that assumes such silly things), she should have been able to gain some control over Bolton doings. She should have been able to help sabotage Bolton defenses against Stannis. Alas! Roose was very good at keeping secrets.

  427. All i want to see…and i can just feel it coming. Is a huge emotional speech from jon with all the other northern lords they’re trying to convince in one place….and it ends with jon snow topless

  428. Ginevra: In fantasy and sci-fi, many occurrences can be explained simply by saying, it’s magic. In other genres, you wouldn’t be able to explain away anything truly unbelievable like that. Everything outside the magical should follow the same rules, though.

    Is that true? Have you ever read a novel that explained how a gun or a car worked? Now, most novels take care to explain that a person has a gun or a car: but unless it’s some plot point (where, say, someone has invented a way to make a better car and the oil industry is trying to kill him/her for it), it goes without being explained

    What needs to be established is what magic can do. You have to establish that R’hllor can bring back the dead. Then it can be used to bring back Jon. We don’t need to know how it works. If this were a modern novel and Jon was dying of some poison, then it only need be established in advance that there is some antidote: we do not need a biochemical description of how it works!

    Ginevra: Wimsey also sometimes says the inverse of this statement, as well, even though Chekhov never did to my knowledge: if a gun is not hung, it cannot go off. Here is where I disagree. We get surprises all the time. We like being surprised. Not everything must be foreshadowed.

    Deus ex Machina had been identified long before Chekhov wrote his dictum: and that is what firing a gun late that was never introduced early is. And thus, yes, everything must be shown before hand. For example, having the Old Gods suddenly having the ability to raise the dead as a solution to Jon would have been a Deus ex Machina plotting. It would have been panned: and rightly so. Having R’hllor do so is not: we already had seen that R’hllorites could do this with a background character some time before. Now, this is not saying that we cannot be surprised: but we also have to be able to say: “I should have seen that coming.”

    Really, Chekhov’s Gun and Deus ex Machina are part and counter part. To rephrase them in their respective lingoes, only introduce the god early if it is to be a machine later (Chekhov’s Rule), and only fire a gun late that has been hung early (no Deus ex Machina).

    Dee: I understand people invested in the originals – but there is no need to overreact and behave like idiots when the adaptation is different especially when the original writer has said the two stories are seperate and must be kept that way. Especially when attacking REAL people in defence of fictional characters

    Oh, I agree. However: every fandom has a core that is more akin to religious fundamentalists than anything else. I have been a “fan” of Doctor Who, Tolkien, Harry Potter, B5, Firefly and SoI&F for, well, a long time now. Most of the fans just really enjoy the books/shows. However, you always get some for whom it becomes a “real” thing: there is “canon” and “it is important to me.” And that’s just nuts. None of this important: it’s fun.

    Tolkien’s letters have some sardonically amusing comments about these sorts of fans. He referred to what we would call “purists” as his horrible cult, and he lamented how he put all of this effort into story-telling, and yet got bombarded with questions about Middle-earth trivia. He was often less-than-impressed with his “fans!”

  429. Demon Monkey: Also: this chekhov’s gun metaphor is getting old. GRRM is a trope killer.

    Chekhov’s Gun and Deus ex Machina have nothing to do with tropes. A trope is a story-telling device that is used so often that is practically cliche. Armies of evil are a fantasy trope. Flammable undead are a fantasy trope. Magical peoples who are killed or poisoned by iron is a fantasy trope. Chekhov’s Gun and Deus ex Machina are descriptions of how coherent plots are devised regardless of whether the plotting fits some trope or not.

    So, if you emphasize that a magical people are poisoned by iron, then this should be important later. That is Chekhov’s Rule involving a trope. Conversely, you cannot have a “hero” at some key moment kill a magical person because they are allergic to iron without ever telling the audience that the magical people are allergic to iron: that is Deus ex Machina involving a trope. You can replace those with some other plotting device unique to a particular story: if it is emphasized early, the it should be important later, and if it is important at some plot climax, then the audience should know about it before hand.

    That said, I do recall someone once spoofing Chekhov’s fun by having a character make a big deal of hanging a gun on a wall-piece early, and then at the key moment, grabbing the wall piece with the gun, tossing the gun off and knocking someone unconscious with the hanging. That was a very ironic subversion of a trope-that-really-isn’t!

  430. Dame of Mercia: “Chekhov’s Gun” – maybe it had another name before Chekhov’s time; I don’t know.

    Shakespeare actually made the same observation, but he did it without the catchy catch-phrase. He basically wrote something to the extent that it did not just waste the audience’s time to emphasize something and then do nothing with it, but it actually pisses off the audience to do so! Chekhov himself made it twice: but the first one fell sort of flat!

    However, the two basic concepts (introduce things before using them, and not wasting time on extraneous details) have been around since the Greeks were writing plays.

    (And I have no idea when people started calling it Chekhov’s Gun: Probably long after Chekhov’s time!)

  431. Ginevra,

    Whoops! I just realized that I missed one important word in your opening statement! I think that we are not in disagreement about what need be and need not be explained.

    Mea culpa!

  432. Nadia,

    Oh no, I didn’t take that little

    spoiler with her saying Rickon is already dead as anything ominous either. I think she just knows that Ramsay being such an evil prick would not just let Rickon live once he has the young man his clutches. It was obvious to me, but on Reddit some twisted it to mean that she for some reason doesn’t want her little brother saved, is lying to Jon again whatever, but that’s really reading the worst into something when there’s a much simpler obvious explanation.
  433. Just thinking on it more

    Would be very fitting to have Septon Meribalds speech in the same episode as Jon and Sansa rallying the North

    Eg which side of bastard bowl some of the foot soldiers end up on is in the hands of the Lord they follow, and that can flip on a whim when one Lord takes over from another, eg Greatjon to Smalljon

    Other part of that is Stark leadership in winter and against the dead, eg Winterfell and the Starks always catered for the commonfolk through the Winter city. What would that be like under Ramsay?

    Same with Tully’s, Edmure is made out to be a fool but what actually may save House Tully in the grand scheme of things is the fact he harboured the smallfolk in Riverrun against Mountain etc. Contrast that to Saltpans smallfolk and hatred for those who wouldn’t let them in the Castle

    As for Broken Man, seems to be about mending things, eg Sandor but also Edmure is a broken man, Starks are a broken House, Jon a broken man and sansa a broken woman, so a rich theme about mending people and houses

    Perhaps even LF is a broken man as well? Maybe this is where we will get the Snow shot of him?

  434. Ghost’s Lunch:
    Just thinking on it more

    Would be very fitting to have Septon Meribalds speech in the same episode as Jon and Sansa rallying the North . . .

    I was just thinking the same thing. It would be pretty great if they had both the

    Broken Man speech and the North Remembers speech in the same episode. I give them about a B- for their adaptation of the TOJ speech. But here we’d have at least one known suburb actor and I’m sure they picked a great actor for Manderley

    as well. So my hopes are high

  435. Jack Bauer 24,

    I’m going with the books here

    (and the presence of Ian McShane as some holy man in the series) – the Hound IS dead … but Sandor Clegane lives on.
  436. Wimsey,

    A problem with Chekov’s Gun and not wasting the audience’s time while avoiding Deus ex Machina is predictability. Jon’s resurrection was almost a given for that reason, and a predictable story is not worth telling unless we have been completely seduced first.

    The antidote is sometimes to include a few “Red Herrings”, i.e. plot devices that lead nowhere. There have to be some loose ends. We might discover that GRRM and D&D have mixed some fish with the guns, so to speak. At least I hope so. Otherwise we can probably count on Gendry or Nymeria swooping in to save Arya’s bacon someday. I am actually worried that all the loose ends will be tied up. Fortunately GRRM in particular does not seem to like predictable, neat, and tidy! Understatement, yes.

  437. Mihnea,

    Which is very unfortunate. I’m pretty sure I would get banned if I insulted you that way, said you were a “sad little person”, a “horrible person”, someone who deserved no respect, etc…
    Not all “book purists” are hate-filled people who are going to attack Cogman. That’s absurd. SOME book purists are like that, just like some people who can’t stop fawning over the show and defending every decision it makes are also very rude, aggressive, insulting, disrespectful, etc…
    There are assholes in every camp.

    I’m pretty sure there are people here who consider themselves book purists, or at least huge fans of the books, and yet you’re allowed to consistently generalize about them and throw vicious insults. You have no place here if that’s how you’re going to behave, and yet the mods let you get away with everything.

    It’s incomprehensible.
    For all your complaining about the negative things others say about the show when they’re simply voicing their opinion, you’re the one who most consistently spews hatred and “toxicity”, as you’re so fond of calling it.

    Many people, including myself, have tried very hard to get along with you, because you’re a member of this community, despite all the nastiness you generate.
    But you just can’t help yourself from insulting people who prefer the books, and making them all out to be “nasty little shits”.

    If the mods don’t do something about this, all civil disagreement will disappear, and this will only be a site for people like you to bulldoze over others, with no room for anyone else looking to voice their opinion and discuss the show in a friendly manner.

  438. Dee,

    Hey there, I live in Geneva, Switzerland. I tend to support Spain and Germany though, not the swiss team haha.

    What about you ?

  439. Markus Stark,

    I didn’t insult you.

    And if you think I ”insulted” them for liking the books or disliking the show, you have completly and utterly missed my point.

    Just like I expect though.

  440. Markus Stark,

    Well I live in Canada but originally from Lebanon. I support Brazil football. But for euro I’ve always supported Portugal 🙂

    Germany is so good these last few years

  441. Dee,

    God… Don’t remind me of the Euro…

    Everyone is so excited, we haven’t been to the Euro since 2008, everyone is so ”hyped”, to use a word we are familiar with here. Everyone is so excited that we’ll play in the opening..etc.

    And I’ll bet France gives us at least 2-3…… 🙁

  442. Mihnea,

    “Book purists are simply the worst. Cogman should just block them all.

    They are simply horrible, sad little people, who do not deserve any respect.”

    Your words, friend, not mine. Those are indeed insults, so you may remove the quotation marks from your comment.

    Additionally, I don’t think I ever accused you of insulting me personally, I’m pretty sure I said you generalized about book purists (what that phrase means to you exactly remains unclear, as I have heard different people use that term very differently), and called them “horrible, sad little people, who do not deserve any respect”. By saying that you insult lots of people who have nothing to do with those who attacked Cogman, including some members of this community.

    That’s what I was saying. So if anyone missed the point, it was you.

  443. Dee,

    That’s cool, I support Brazil as well 🙂

    Interesting that you’re originally from Lebanon, I have a grandfather who is originally from Syria.

  444. Elizabeth,

    Also there are two other I would consider a “broken man” and that is the Hound, if he is actually still alive. Then there is Theon Greyjoy who let’s face it has been ” broke into a thousand pieces” by his own admission. The title could be about all of them, just can’t wait.

  445. The Winter of Bastardfell,

    The swoop in and save a dire situation I hope for is Syrio Forel, and also Gendry the smith.

    I know it may be trite, but when piquant characters such as Syrio are presumed dead, it is great to see them still kicking and kicking bad guy butt. The hound himself wondered that Trant could kill a top swordsman, so that door is slightly ajar.

    Also I enjoy seeing hanging threads come to a pause of completion, even though we don’t always get that satisfaction in real life. We read for enjoyment, and satisfaction is part of enjoyment.

  446. The Winter of Bastardfell: A problem with Chekov’s Gun and not wasting the audience’s time while avoiding Deus ex Machina is predictability.

    If this were true, then books/shows/films resorting to Deus ex Machina would not get skewered for doing so. Similarly, then books/shows/films that spend time developing things that never become important would not get skewered for doing so.

    And it is not just critics: audiences do not like it. Films/show that commit these sins get low marks from audiences. Everything should be obvious after it happens: the audience should feel “Oh, I should have seen that coming!”

    (Incidentally, Jon coming back was not “predictable”: I would wager that most of the viewing audience did not expect it, given that this show has routinely killed of fairly prominent characters, and given that this is a fantasy story. However, once they began talking to Melisandre about reviving Jon, hopefully audience members began remembering: wait, didn’t a priest of her religion do that to someone else?)

    The Winter of Bastardfell: The antidote is sometimes to include a few “Red Herrings”, i.e. plot devices that lead nowhere.

    Red Herrings are not plot devices that lead nowhere. Red herrings are plot devices that lead somewhere other than where people think that they are going to lead. However, Red Herrings are not exceptions to Chekhov’s Dictum: the gun is hung, and the gun is used, just not in the way that was not initially obvious. And Red Herrings do not justify Deus ex Machina: the major plot resolutions should rely on other figurative guns hung on proverbial walls.

    GRRM is not reinventing literature here anymore than JMS was reinventing television. There is nothing particularly innovative or novel in how he is telling stories. What is unusual is that GRRM is using good storywriting habits in an epic fantasy, which is a genre renown for Deus ex Machina, lack of character development, long stretches of extraneous narrative, and pretty much every other literary sin known to humanity. He is not quite the only one to do this: but using any one of the many good literary techniques is very much the exception in this genre.

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