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HODOR! How brutal was that ending? If you’re all recovered from watching this week’s Game of Thrones (although I know I haven’t) then you can check out some of the interviews and videos that dissect “The Door.”
*Spoiler Warning* There are some references made to future book plotlines and which show storylines have been confirmed as canon by George R. R. Martin. Read on at your peril!
Entertainment Weekly spoke to Kristian Nairn about Hodor’s tragic final moments. The actor loved his final scene, saying:
I couldn’t be happier how he has gone out. The interesting thing is it’s kinda left open. You don’t actually see him [die]. It’s implied. So who knows? He may come back as a White Walker, maybe he got away. But it’s a really good way to do it. I couldn’t have asked for a better goodbye to a character I love. My favorite part is it ties up the question of why is Hodor “Hodor.” Why does he say the word “Hodor”? Only George R.R. Martin or David and Dan could have come up with this. It’s incredibly sad. The minute you finally learn something about Hodor, they kill him!
The scene was clearly just as emotional for the actors as it was for the viewers, with Nairn saying:
I had tears in my eyes. I don’t see myself on screen, I see Hodor. I always talk about him in the third person. I just saw the character die and it was very sad. I think people are going to a) freak out, b) be very sad.
Speaking about wrapping up and his life after the show, Nairn commented that:
When it was finally wrapped at the end of season 6 they allowed Isaac to be the one to wrap me. It was an emotional moment. It’s been an incredible journey that completely turned my life upside down and gave me a lot of hope for the future. I can’t wait to see what comes next. I have a lot more words than “Hodor.”
Nairn also discusses his favourite (and least favourite) ‘Hodor’ and his best day on set. You can read the full interview here.
Entertainment Weekly also spoke to Isaac Hempstead Wright, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss about losing a character that has become such an important part of the show, with Weiss saying:
He’s not somebody you think of as a main character, but he’s slowly, stealthily become an integral association with the show. ‘Hodor’ is the one word you can say to somebody and immediately evoke the show or the books. And he’s just been quietly there in Bran’s storyline, being lovable with his delivering the hell out of many, many ‘Hodors.
Benioff adds:
I think people will be surprised how hard it hits them emotionally. It’s always interesting when we do the death calls; the Hodor one was particularly tough … [The Hodor twist came] from one of our conversations with [author George R.R. Martin]. This is one of his ideas that he told us in Santa Fe. We thought it was f–king fantastic.”
Hempstead-Wright talks about how Bran’s selfish actions caused so much tragedy.
It’s so sad! We learned Hodor really is this vulnerable soul, who had such potential to live a happy life. First, through [Bran’s] selfish actions, going to the White Walker vision in the first place, I’ve screwed him over. He didn’t pick up that he should get out of the dream. And then Hodor sacrifices himself. He’s been through all this and he’s still having to do this…It encapsulates the Game of Thrones world — the nice guys who deserve looking after don’t always get it. It’s going to be mortifying when it airs. Bran would literally be nowhere without him.
You can read the full interview, including what happened when the actors behind Hodor and Bran met for the first time, here
Entertainment Weekly also took a look at everyone’s favourite new ‘ship: Brienne of Tarth and Tormund Giantsbane. Gwendoline Christie is a fan of the purported relationship, although she says most of her time with Kristofer Hivju she’s just trying not to laugh.
First of all, Kristofer is absolutely hilarious. I don’t think I’ve been in a scene on Game of Thrones when it’s been everything I can do to stop myself from laughing. The way he was behaving toward me was just extraordinary.
Christie says she enjoyed playing Brienne as being embarrassed by Tormund’s advances.
I enjoyed Brienne being put in that position of feeling awkward and not wanting the attention. That was a very fun thing to play. He’s a wildling, he’s very sensual and animal-like and very forthright with his emotions and feelings — which is really the opposite of [Brienne]. I enjoyed trying to navigate that and the beauty of her embarrassment. She can totally deal with the situation, and with him, but she’s just so embarrassed about it.
Isaac Hempstead Wright also spoke to HBO’s Making Game of Thrones blog.
Bran’s definitely had to grow quite a thick skin. He started off as this perfectly happy-go-lucky kid in a castle, who hoped to be a knight one day, to having that ripped away from him pretty brutally when he’s chucked out of a window. He’s had to understand that this is not a nice world he’s living in. But equally, I think Bran’s got a Zen aura about him. He realizes that he can’t be a normal kid anymore – he can’t even be a normal person in Westeros – because he’s got this higher purpose. He and he alone is going to be the one who commands the mystical powers of Westeros.
On the storyline he was most interested to film, he said:
I loved learning about the origins of the White Walkers. What’s really cool about Bran’s visions is it’s not just us watching some flashback – Bran needs to see it to understand exactly what he’s got to do. We’re getting to watch a character who has some relation to what he’s seeing react as well….There’s really the temptation for Bran to go completely AWOL and live in the vision world. But as we see, when he goes into a vision without the Raven’s protection, he realizes that this is not a world he has any kind of control over. And if that doesn’t teach Bran to be more wary and careful with this power, then I think he’s in for a whole other world of pain in the time to come.
He also talks about the episode’s other big loss- Bran’s direwolf Summer:
Summer was a relic from the time of Bran’s father, and he’s a reminder of his father and the Stark way. But also, Summer was Bran’s first connection to this strange, mystical world; there’s a very deep connection there. For Bran to then lose him – especially having come this far and having successfully escaped so many close calls – it’s another crushing blow. For Bran, it’s like losing a piece of himself.
For the full interview, including who he’d choose to be Hand of the King, you can read the rest here.
The blog also spoke to Kristian Nairn about how he learned of Hodor’s fate, the evolution of his character and whether or not he resents Bran for what’s happened.
Hodor does not resent – not my Hodor. He doesn’t have that emotion. I don’t think he’s very fond of the warging, but he sees the bigger picture. He’s not the most intelligent guy, but I think he can sense when things are important. He knows whatever Bran does is essential; it gets them out of some pretty tight situations. I think he’s more sad about what happened because he’s not going to see his friends again. But he also knows if he doesn’t hold that door for a second longer, they’re going to die….He always puts others first. I don’t think he has a bad bone in his body. He’s just unaffected by the s**t that’s going on around him. Even when things were bad during the traveling, he always had a smile ready. It wouldn’t matter what he had to do, he was always happy to do it.
Talking about which scenes resonated most for him, Nairn says:
I did love that scene in the cave. And I really did enjoy the one in the birthing hut, at Craster’s Keep when we were taken captive. Bran has to use his warging powers to free us. That was a complex scene to play. I was really playing two people at the same time – Hodor, and Bran in between both somewhere. As an actor, that’s a dream come true.
Asked what Hodor would have said to Bran if he could talk properly, the actor replied:
If it were me answering, I would have said “no” a lot more: “Hey, pick me up.” “No.” I think [Hodor] would have just said, “Take care of yourself little guy. Be safe.”
For the full interview, including who he’d most like to warg into and the period of history he’d most like to see on the show, click here
HBO have released their usual post-episode videos. In this week’s “Inside the Episode” David Benioff and D.B. Weiss discuss the evolution of Sansa’s character, the Kingsmoot and the (GRRM approved) implications behind Bran’s storyline.
We also have this excellent “Anatomy of a Scene” video, which takes us behind the complicated filming of that epic cave battle.
Emilia Clarke and Iain Glen discuss Jorah’s greyscale and the emotional reunion between their characters.
Finally Kristian Nairn and Isaac Hempstead-Wright talk about Hodor’s heart-wrenching final scenes.
Seymour!
Ho – da gotdamn doh
The next two episodes are short af. 🙁 Next episode is 52 minutes and episode 7 is 51 minutes 🙁
Um..yeah. I want to see that Sansa/Brienne Mean Girls scene.
“He and he alone is going to be the one who commands the mystical powers of Westeros.”
Hype!
Hold the door… hold the door… hole da door… hodadoor… hodador… hodor.
So Wylis is holding the door. Good on you Wylis you hold that MF door and buy Meera as much time as you can for her to tow Bran the hell out of there. But they do need some help getting back south (assuming that’s where they are going). I can’t see the 2 of them making it far on their own with an army of frozen dead following behind them. Will there be more CotF meeting up with them? Wildlings? An extremely cold good Samaritan?
8, 9, and 10 are all around 60 minutes though at least.
Well shit, the ending of the “Anatomy of a Scene” video had me tears AGAIN! The series wrap for such a great character we loved since the beginning was emotional. Hodor will always be Hodoring in my heart 🙂
Will Bran and Meet a head to the Wall to look for Jon?
Anyone else excited for Horn Hill next episode?
I love behind the scenes stuff like the “Anatomy of a Scene” video. It really is awe-inspiring and incredible how much work goes into this show, and I think most of us would agree that the hard effort shows.
Respect to all the actors who played the Children of the Forest (particularly Kae Alexander)- 9-10 hours of adding the prosthetics. They must have been super long days. It was definitely worth the change as they didn’t really look as ethereal and beguiling before, but yeah I don’t think I could take on a job like that.
I have really enjoyed the Bran scenes this year, and I’m looking forward to them in the second half the season. I think it was definitely the right decision to exclude him last year, and this seasons scenes have been much more powerful as we knew straight away that they were actually heading somewhere (out of the cave).
Me too…sniff..
Oh, that Sansa/Brienne scene better show up! 🙂 “That wildling with the beard….” LOL.
Dany loves Jorah, lalalalalala. I thought Daario was very respectful in that scene, just sort of standing back and probably wishing he wasn’t there.
Hodor. Nodor. 🙁 What a wrench it must be for some of these actors, to leave after years of being part of this huge family of characters.
Ravyn,
At this point I feel like it’s a foregone conclusion.
Isaac and Kristian hug 🙁
The all cave scene was amazing!
Are there any interviews with Ellie Kendrick? I know Isaac is the bigger star in the show, but she was the one who actually said, “Hold the door”. Would love to know her thoughts on the scene.
Jack Bauer 24,
They have nowhere to go, so the Wall seems like their destination imo.
Jack Bauer 24,
After this episode, I feel like I’m the only one who isn’t interested. Sam better do something amazing and make this all worth it.
Ashley,
I’m glad it wasn’t just me!
Jack Bauer 24,
Looks so badass!
Ravyn,
I’d love some interviews with her. Hopefully we get to see them.
I was surprised by how emotional I got during that Daenerys/Jorah scene. I cried and everything. I saw the gifs on Tumblr before the episode aired, and the lines felt so cheesy to me. But the acting by Emilia and Ian was so on point that the line actually worked. Very good scene.
What does that say about R’hllor, their priests and their prophecies? All bogus?
Still, it’s only the red priests who have the power to bring back the dead
Speaking of “after this episode”…that preview for next week was incredibly underwhelming. Was very disappointed by it.
At the end was Isaac hugged Kristian I started tearing up 🙁
Bran, Meera, Horn Hill, and big KL set piece with the Tyrell army. Looks amazing to me.
Jack Bender got spoiled with some great material lol. Kingsmoot, White Walker set piece, and next week the KL set piece with the Tyrell army.
ghost of winterfell,
That Kinvara scene and her “obedience plan” convinced me that it might be. She didn’t seem all that troubled that Melisandre picked a different “chosen one” (though to be fair, Mel isn’t from Volantis) and both her and Mel are throwing that PtwP prophecy at the same time. I think they’re all looking for heroes and people who will help in the fight with the WW. Bran’s power and potential for magic is probably the biggest out of everyone though.
So with the Tyrell army at KL next week and Jaime outside with them do you think that will be interspersed with the “I choose violence” scene inside? Could be pretty badass.
Incorrect, you are not the only one. There are 2 of us. I like Sam the character. Loyal, thirsty for knowledge, kind, and I’m sure something big must come from this trip he is on to Old Town but this just feels like a pit stop. He has to drop Gilly and Lil Sam off somewhere though and I don’t care to see Horn Hill but maybe it is a short sequence to introduce other characters. Never was too interested in it. Randyl could be a very pivotal, interesting character though and what better way to introduce him than with Sam who we already know and love. We will immediately hate Randyl for treating Sam like shit.
Ahh so sad! That interview with Kristian had me tear up! I’m going to miss him. A fantastic actor and all around brilliant dude. Fellow WoW player too! It would be weird and tragic to see Hodor as a white walker or wight… But I hope we see him again somehow. Yes, that’s it… I’m going to convince myself he got away. I refuse to believe he’s dead!! T^T
Bender (hope to see him back next season as well) and everyone else involved did not dissapoint! The Children of the Forest look absolutely great, too bad we have to leave them behind.
Also Randyl has a valyrian steel sword.
RosanaZugey,
That’s how they suck u in. Rest assured big things are happening this episode and all the rest. Its officially mid season and we have had so many huge happenings and much more to come. Considering there are two big battles. That’s two episodes basically. So the screen time for the others not involved will come in the other 3 episodes. Looking forward to the aftermath of leaving the Cave for Bran and Meera. The season trailer shows them being help by someone on horseback. Probably Benjen. Also ready to hear Cercei say I choose violence!
I’m scheduling a bathroom break right there already. 😀
RosanaZugey,
It was. It’s clear the endgame is beyond the wall and the North will be in the first line fighting, so it’s like we’re waiting for the south to get its shit together and wrap things up. I see Bran struggling with guilt over messing up Hodor, Bloodraven, and everyone, so Sam’s small family drama seems very trivial by comparison.
https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/734568442607632384
Stephen King!
Yeah! Because, you know, they probably are working on breeding Indominus rex to deal with the thing that they created to deal with the thing that they magicked to deal with the White Walkers.
I got into the elevator today and someone behind me yelled out “hold the door”….I burst into tears
Two big battles? Bastardbowl and what’s the other?
Flayed Potatoes,
It also is clear that the White Walkers are not “evil”: they’ve got a grudge (or two or three or four).
Ravyn,
Yeah. In the videos above.
Making the 8,
I think there are a bunch of us who HOPE it’s Uncle BenJen to the rescue.
At least, I KNOW I’m still holding out for that.
I just love when they expand the world though and we see new places. It’s always nice not to see the same locations all the time.
So much work goes into this…. 10 houres for make-up?! Gods..
My utmost respect for the entire crew!!
Also, with only 3 episodes left until
RosanaZugey,
The previews don’t really tell much about the quality of an episode,the one for episode 4 didn’t really show much and the last one didn’t either .
Making the 8,
I’d like to see him just go straight to Oldtown and do whatever endgame thing he’s supposed to do lol.
It’s strange. I felt shock and sadness watching Hodor’s final scenes but didn’t cry at all, but I just shed several tears watching the actor say goodbye. I want to hug Hodor!
Speaking of Valyrian steel swords, can someone refresh my memory and tell me what happened to Widow’s Wail after Joffrey died?
Wimsey,
Btw that totally cracked me up! XD Futurama is one of my favorites!
Jack Bauer 24,
I hope so! I need them to be in the next episode so badly.
Wimsey,
I wonder if we’ll hear them speak…
Does anyone think that now Bran has WW Mark – if he goes past wall, they will be able to follow?
Also – Hodor is No More! ?
Making the 8,
I see what you did there
I realized we never got confirmation about the location of Dark Sister 🙁 . I was hoping we’d see it in the cave.
Do you think we’ll see wight Summer and wight Hodor?
Yes, count me in on that group as well. It would also be awesome to see more giants since only one came south of the wall. CG budget be damned!
Making the 8,
I’m not sure if it been firmly established, but one assumes it would pass to Tommen.
That is the only other TV episode that left me feeling more devastated than this one, I think. I mean… how could they?!?!? (And I’m talking to the Futurama team AND the Game of Thrones team!)
I envision something like: “*sigh* No, Cane Toads won’t kill us, either…..”
Jack Bauer 24,
and the finale is 69!
I had completely forgotten about that! My bet is that it will not come up.
Cersei’s Brain,
That’s the theory of how the WW will breach the Wall. Thanks, Bran.
It is pretty obvious he will not have the time to study and become a Maester in Old Town but his whole purpose, I assume, lies at the Citadel so he needs to get there ASAP so he can help add to the storyline again. Becoming a Maester would take years and shit is happening at a break neck pace now. He needs to find some ancient text written by CotF (or someone all knowing/ancient) about how to deactivate the WW
Is anyone else thinking that because Bran is now marked that if he goes south back across the wall that the walls powers stop working just like in the tree cave and that’s how the white walkers will be able to get through the wall. I don’t know if anyone else has said that just something I thought of as soon as they said he was marked and now the white walkers can come in.
If the Children knew how to deactivate the Walkers, then they would have done so. It does not seem that the Children wrote: they stored their knowledge in the Old Gods Cloud Network, something to which the Maesters have no access.
Something to keep in mind is that the Maesters do not think that White Walkers ever existed: Walkers are just bogeymen in the fairy tales of the barbaric Northerners. That suggests that anything they do have is second and third hand documentation of fairy tales: and one constant lesson of Thrones is that fairy tales are 99% lies.
Now, it’s possible that Sam will figure out that the Nisa Nisa tale is the recipe for making Valyrian steel swords: fans have suspected that for decades now. Or it’s possible that he’ll put some other threads together and figure out more of the “why” of the Walkers. That is, what do they want now? Why are they back? What needs to be done to put things back the way that they were?
Such a mind-boggling episode, with the intense emotional punch of Hodor’s death and then the deeper currents of the WW origin reveal.
Anyone else think that this suggests a corresponding act of boundary-violating magic on the part of humans to create the dragons, as a defense against the WW, and that this is origin of the Azor Ahai story?
Anyone else think that Bran is bound to end up back in Winterfell, that the crypts lead down to the cave beneath the Heart Tree, and that the whole “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell” thing is connected not to a ruling Stark, but to a greenseer Stark installed beneath the tree? I feel like there has to be some connection between the loss of the weirwood groves and the loss of control over the WW – that the Children maintained control over them through the weirnet, and that once that net was shattered, they went rogue.
Anyway, those are my initial fevered thoughts after last night. So intrigued by all of this!
When Kristian was asked what his favorite “hodor” was I instantly thought of the one he delivered to Osha when she’s complaining in camp. Not surprised he mentioned that one. That was an “Emmy Hodor” 🙂
Oh boy I’m crying again after reading those interviews.
I just finishing up Clash (literally the last couple pages) and read the part when Hodor is opening the crypt’s door and was nearly in tears then. But now I really am.
His words make me hope that maybe Hodor got away, or at least I’m going to pray he did.
I really want to see the Sansa and Brienne scene! Sounds fun. Please let it be in the dvd~
“Take care of yourself little guy. Be safe.”
I’m crying again!
Knowing what we now know, what would be a decent theory as to why the WW let Sam live when he got left behind on the way back to the Fist during Season 2? He looked right at him from his horse, and then just kept on going. And all his wights let him be too. And that’s a quite a bit different than the determined foes they are now, with demented crazy killer wight underlings.
Was Sam’s innocence recognized and his life spared? Or just one of those things that doesn’t really matter to the story?
My modified crazy-ass conjecture is that R’hllor is what remains of Azor Ahai after the Children set him up to be their savior against the Walkers.
Then, Cane Toads.
And I cried again. Hodor. You’re killing me.
Benjen has to show up with flaming weapon next episode. I’m convinced. I know how seriously he took his vows, but if BR knew that Meera and Bran would end up alone and in danger, the CoTF could have kept him in a nearby cave or something, waiting for the right moment to save them. Is that crazy? Maybe but I’m going with it because Meera needs help and seriously, someone just needs to finish a conversation with Jon. (ie Ned and Benjen both said-next time I see you we’ll talk/we’ll talk when I get back)
And I need Sam to stand up to his father, send Heartsbane to Edd at the Wall that now has neither Valyrian steel or dragon glass, and go find something at the Citadel to help. I agree that he doesn’t have time to be a Maester. If they don’t know about WW-maybe there is something about dragons and how to control them. OR that one book Rhaegar read…
Also seeing that Dany and Jorah video made me a little misty eyed. To be honest? That dynamic and Jorah’s devotion is one of my favorite parts of her story line.
P.S. Has anyone mentioned how awkward Daario looked just standing between them for that powerfully emotional moment? 🙂
Yeah, somehow, I don’t think that anything short of White Walkers on the doorstep is going to convince Randyl Tarley that there is any truth to these childish stories that the Northerners invented.
I wonder if there’s any significance to Daenerys wearing the ring she dropped and Jorah found as a necklace now rather than putting it back on her finger…
Wimsey,
Night’s King: I am the snow storm. The first snow and the last.
Wimsey,
It’s a shame, since they need all the Valyrian Swords they can get.
All good points, thanks. I forgot this reference which changes everything. So will the information come word-of-mouth, text, or
(which also kind of confused me)
A funny thing just occurred to me.
In episode 602, Home, the Three Eyed Raved at one point refers their warging as being, “under the sea.” I thought this was a kind of big easter egg by D&D, and am surprised no one is really discussing it here (Well, maybe they are, and I’ve just missed it).
This is a phrase Patchface uses quite often in the books. Perhaps whats happened to Patchface is along the lines of what just happened to Wyllis/Hodor. Maybe he was brain-fried by the Three Eyed Raven himself, or maybe by Bran…
I guess we’ll just have to wait for TWoW to see for sure.
Wimsey,
I’ll raise you a – “No gold, no gold”!
Wimsey,
Sam the Slayer will find a way. And I agreed his father won’t be convinced, I just want him to face the music after a lifetime of abusing Sam. At least verbally.
Maybe he can steal the sword and take Gilly to Oldtown, because really, do you want baby Sam to grow up with your father? No you don’t.
Hodor stole the show but I still dare to ask: Do you guys know whether the new red priest Varys and Tyrion met will play the role of Galazza Galare or Quaithe? Or a mashup between the two? Personally I just loved the Quaithe in the fifth book and it would be so cool if she was somehow present in the show aswell.
Jack Bauer 24,
More than excited to see the conflict between Gilly and Tarly Sr!!!
I want the White Walkers to have bad cockney accents.
The last thing Jon says to Edd is “don’t let it crumble while I’m gone”. Foreshadowing the wall coming down after Bran comes through?
I used to hate the way the story whitewashed Jorah but now I’ve started to appreciate it. Book-Dany is surrounded by suspicious people and she has absolutely no one she can trust. It would be impossible to write emotional scenes like this one if D&D had remained true to the source material. And her character desperately needs emotional scenes since the show can not portray the internal struggles the introverted book-Dany exhibits.
As for Hold the door = Hodor; can we now safely assume that the theory of Winterfell being the place where winter fell holds true?
Finally an answer to the question, “Whatchoo talkin’ ’bout Willas?”
Did Dany get her Dragon necklace back from the Dosh Khaleen?
Agreed. Thought it seemed cheesy but also cried a little.
When Summer died I was yelling and cursing. Then I realized Hodor was going to bite it. Rough episode.
My reaction was they must not want to show us anything. So could herald a good episode to come.
Are they not going to bring in the Dragon Horn to the Iron Islands storyline?
I have a different, way more tinfoilish crackpotting theory :
BR’s last words aren’t aimed at Bran, he is talking to NK. The NK is approaching BR while all his generals stand around, he stares at him and Bloodraven says “The time has come, leave me”. We all think he is talking to Bran, but in my opinion he is talking to NK, who either has warged him all this time or knows about BR through other visions. Maybe i’m reading too much into this, but even in the vision BR seems to be talking to someone else than Bran.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think Jon, Sansa and co will be absentee in the next episode. Then meeting with lords, prepare for battle and battle itself. But still have this weird feeling that Ramsay will make it alive to next season and Jon vs Sansa rivalry. It’s shaping up to be quite unpredictable storyline.
Wimsey,
Lol. Cane toads, yes.
As a wildlife biologist, I sometimes tell myself that my interest in GoT is justified by the fact that it’s all really about bringing species (direwolves, dragons) back from extinction, and the intense bonds that people can have with animals. If I could think that there’s some sort of commentary about stupid ecologically destructive things people have done to try to reverse other stupid ecologically destructive things, I might actually stand a chance of convincing some of my friends to watch this show (and then I wouldn’t have to lurk here, because I could talk about it with them.)
It would make more sense if the Children also created the whole R’hllor/dragons/fire magic scene as well.
Two things…
1) I cannot wait to read the tweets this week.
2) HBO needs to send representatives door to door (oh no… I didn’t mean it like that!) to give everyone a hug. And some ice cream.
We don’t know but I thought about it too. It looked like a rather expensive necklace. Although I suppose she’s not too concerned about having a shortage of coin anymore.
MakeThemBurn,
Quaithe was intro’d in Qarth in season 2
Flayed Potatoes,
Do you think we’ll see wight Summer and wight Hodor?
I don’t think we see it but I do think they are wights now.
Mariah,
That’s a legit fear. Still, Bran and Meera know this don’t they? 3ER made it pretty clear I thought. Plus, if
then he likely knows this as well. I read somewhere that WoW
If they now practically worship her, why wouldn’t she get it back? Do you think that every action of every character needs to be literally shown, or it didn’t happen?
Ramsay will probably be in the next episode then because we still have a scene or scenes with him and Rickon.
I am betting that she takes on the roles of the Red Church clergy that side with Daeny in Winter rather than roles established in the books published so far.
Geone,
I think with how little we know about NK, BR and CH that (wild) speculation is not only fun but useful. There were definitely points last night where I wondered in NK and BR were the same person.
Bran was 3 places (Bran, Hodor, Winterfell) at once so BR could have been all over the place there at the end.
I compleatly agree. i was so excited about it and when i watched i was like …meh :-/
Shattered.
I liked the comment about GoT fans identifying themselves with an enthusiastic “Hodor” even as I thought that will now be forever changed from innocent/giddy excitement to solemn reverence.
Loved, loved, loved this episode. It was probably the most emotionally draining episode so far with the reveals of the White Walker (WW) origins, the reason Hodor, “Hodored,” Jorah’s declaring to Dany his love for her and their parting, Summer’s death and the tear-inducing, tragic end of our beloved, Hodor.
So much went on in this episode that I watched it again and that’s when I began to think the events in the Weirwood lair of the Three Eyed Raven (TER) and the Children of the Forest (COTF) were staged, and that Bran has been being used and manipulated by them all along.
I thought back to an earlier episode when one of the COTF told Meera, who wanted to leave the tree, how important she was to Bran and that Bran wouldn’t be in that tree forever, and I believe the TER said something similar to Bran as well. To me that suggests the COTF and the TER knew the event with the WWs was coming, yet they took no useful preventive measures to stop it.
For instance, Bran could have been told of the ability of the Night’s King to see him during his green sight trips and the danger of his touch, yet he wasn’t.
Furthermore, the COTF obviously knew fire kills Wights, yet they lit a small fire in front of only one entrance to the tree. Why not surround the entire tree with fire and make more fire grenades?
Also, the COTF could have told Meera how to kill White Walkers, but they obviously didn’t as Meera looked surprised when she killed one.
The fact that none of these things were done certainly raised my suspicions, but when one of the COTF failed to kill the White Walker who entered the area of the tree where Bran was, I was convinced this was all planned and were simply using him to further their own agenda. After all, how was a being well versed in magic, who created the WWs, knows dragon glass kills them and who has made dragon glass weapons for thousands of years, not able to kill that WW with a dragon glass tipped spear, when Meera was able to kill that same WW with that very same spear? Too fishy!
My bet is some magical creature, controlled by the COTF and/or the TER, will conveniently appear to “protect” and guide Bran and Meera south of the Wall, which will then allow the Night’s King to bring down the Wall just as he was able to enter the Weirwood tree after he touched Bran.
I think COTF want to wipe out humans to take their land back and are using Bran to do that.
heh, well, the direwolves are getting a lot closer to going back extinct!
But that is partly why I joked about Cane Toads. I think that they were introduced to deal with another introduced pest. There are several really malignant predators in Oz and New Zealand that were introduced to deal with other introduced things. We accidentally introduce rats. OK, let’s release ferrets to deal with them! Oh oh: um, cats to deal with the ferrets! Er, dogs to deal with the cats?
So, I could see the Children doing the same thing that people do: rehashing the old idea, but “we’ll get it right this time.”
But it does make me wonder if the whole dragons+humans=Valyrians thing might be tied to this, too, as well as the possibility that R’hllor is the outcome of another botched attempt to deal with humans or the things that were supposed to deal with humans.
I still want Indominus rex, though….
Probably not. I can see them wanting to go more of a character-bonding route for the next two riders.
My bet is that it’s foreshadowing Ramsay sacking Castle Black and somehow putting a hole in the wall. However, it’s almost certainly foreshadowing Edd being the LC when the Wall breaks.
Cor and blimey, govnah: thar’wuh be aces!
Seriously, it reads better in a Cockney accent….
😀
They cut a Tormund/Brienne connection? What??!!! We are in mourning for our beloved Hodor! Give us some Torienne romance pronto!
Making the 8,
Benjen been gone awhile maybe far.north or maybe he’s been jen of oldstones . why keep meera alive so long? Mirror image of a certain stark woman we’ve only read about. Meera mirror on the wall .how long til u fall to break the world and fix climate issue
So if Bran comes south of the wall which in turn allows the white walkers, i would guess that we’ll never have a 1000th Lord Commander, and castle black will get trampled within seconds. I’ll be surprised in Edd sees out the end of this season.
Bran is R’hllor!
Season might as well be over that will be hard to beat my favorite of series. So eye opening, think there was foreshadowing in every seen. All thats left is warg arya eating on Bolton.maybe a flying tommen .
Hopefully now all the creative geniuses that think we are going to see a Wight Hodor will stop saying it.
Choukai,
Edd and the remnants of the Night’s Watch are going to be flayed by Ramnsay… Those are the burning Xs we saw in the trailer of this season.
Seemed like in the offseason everyone was excited to find out who would play Randyll Tarly. Now suddenly lots of people don’t care about seeing Horn Hill? Weird.
The recipe for Valyrian steel is to smelt iron with obsidian instead of carbon. The silicon of obsidian is a relative of carbon.
And Gendry is just the smithy to do it.
Princessmaria,
Yeah, I… wouldn’t hold my breath for that one.
RIP Hodor…. ;(
I’m quite excited to get to know the Tarlys finally. Horn Hill looks really huge in the preview. I was very surprised, because I thaught they would use that Castle in which they filmed in as a model. I mean it looks like a small town! And that one shot of Faulkner. Is he sitting on the table with his uniform on? Chills.
Geralt of Rivia,
I’d agree that the northern storyline is becoming a bit more unpredictable in the long run. What happens after the BAttle with LF still in the mix etc.
Also if we get another flashback of the ToJ next week, I’m sure we will have a few Jon scenes, don’t you think? We haven’t really seen him talk to Melisandre and also I’d love a Sansa/Davos scene. I’m already craving the photos. They usually come out wednesday, don’t they?
Making the 8,
..and what about the valyrian dagger that guy tried to use to kill Bran when he was still in his coma?? I don’t think we ever really learned who was behind that whole thing either… what if Bran was behind his own assassination attempt??
Littlefinger is such a fantastic character. Has no illusions about who and what he is. Will screw people over with no qualms (heck, he’ll straight out tell people not to trust them, and they do anyway, and pay for it.) He plays for himself and himself alone, manipulates anyone that suits him, and has continued to do this his entire life. If anyone has worked to deserve that iron throne, it’s him. I don’t expect the iron throne will exist in the end, but hey. He’s slimy, fearless, untrustworthy, intelligent, manipulative, scheming, underestimated, disliked, hated and bloody brilliant. Aidan Gillen is gold.
Choukai,
Maybe it takes a 1000 lord commanders to kill that great big fucking wall chisle I think.asunder that frozen waste.and set the world right.and fuck the lord of light.
Tycho Nestoris,
which might be why they call him the 3 eyed raven – he has many eyes, can see many places and times
Pigeon,
I’d rather have half a hodor than a lil finger. Ho ho ho..
Given that Widow’s Wail is a smaller than usual sized sword made from the Stark sword Ice, I wonder if Arya will come to possess it.
It’s not stated flat out in the show, but
don’t look if you don’t want to see a book spoiler
In the show Joffrey said that when he received his Valyrian Steel sword it was “not the first time he’d handled Valyrian steel” or words to that effect
ThroneDorne,
Edit: beaten by Ser Not
Anyone think Dragons were created to fight the White Walkers? And if that is the case then who were the Valyrians? With there purple eyes and silver hair.
That Red Priestess that was in Meereen is very powerful and the whole Lord of Light religion seems to have been created to fight or as a result of their first fight with the White Walkers. The Valyrians and the Red God have to be connected and the maesters pushing the 7 onto Aegon the Conqueror and the whole Hightower/Citadel conspiracy….. seems like the White Walkers might have some allies south of the wall.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
I’m not a book reader but I’ve read the Catspaw assassin page on the wiki. It just seems weird to me that they’d leave the explanation of such a big event out of the show. So I’ve always kinda questioned the theory but with all this time travel stuff it’s got me going back over the whole story one more time…
Anyone think that in the terms of the TV show the aftermath of battle for winterfell will shadow the kingsmoot?
In both cases we have brother vs sister. Just in the Northern case it will be Sansa who passes the torch to Jon and screwes LF over.
Oh man. I just finished watching episode 5. Damn. I am in tears.
Tycho Nestoris,
Remember that in Barn’s first vision sent by the 3ER, Bran sees
[/spoiler]the curtain of energy at the top of Westeros, and beyond that, the reason that Bran must live because winter is coming. Beyond the energy curtain is something that, when disrupted, will pull the plug on the WWs and their winterizing the north. So destroying the energy source for the WWs would be why Bran would go north.
I now am wondering if R’hllor and the Valyrians were some sort of outcome of this second attempt to magically create a control for an invasive species. I increasingly wonder if the original Prince was the guinea pig: and his mind has been trapped in blood magic in a temporal universality since then, letting him “see” the future and disperse magic.
It might seem like a “plot hole” to have the Children repeat their mistake: but real history is full of people repeating mistakes with the Mantra “this time, we’ll do it right.” (The running Cane Toad joke is an example, I think.)
Would that work? Silicon compounds are relatively “sticky” compared to other things, but not compared to carbon. It seems to me that would make a Valyrian steel sword brittle!
At any rate, I always figured that a dose of iron from a living person was the final ingredient. That’s an old idea – I claim zero credit for it – and it’s been used in other stories, but it always seemed like that was what the “truth” of the Nisa Nisa tale was.
I think that they will learn who Jon’s mother is by then, and Jon will declare that the daughter of the son comes before the son of the daughter. I mean, he’s loosened up a little, but he’s still got a Valyrian steel rod running through his rectum! 😀
I noticed in one of the flashback scenes the TER pointed out Howland Reed and said that was Jojens father. Not mentioning Meera at all, you would think she was a little more relevant, cuz she was still alive at the time. I wonder if there really is more to that.
I fear that we dont get that much until the battle and maybe the finale. But yeah Melisandre definitely needs to talk to Jon, that one little conversation was too short.
It was the opposite. He said, “The man beside him is Howland Reed. MEERA’S father.”
The Red God religion could have been created to perpetuate knowledge about some fact which needs to be remembered. The knowledge which humans need to survive the ice/fire conflict has not really been revealed yet.
Clob,
Whoops, coulda sworn it was the other way around, well anyway, that kills that theory!
Marlana,
The south is sooo boring. Go North Bran!
I’d like to nominate May 22 as “Hold the door for Others” day. All seriousness, I have held the door like 5-6 times today. Once was my boss. I almost left for the day after that.
thurg00d420,
Meera does look a lot like Jon. Not much “evidence” after that.
Wimsey,
Even if Bran was somehow to inform Jon of his parentage what i doubt will be in this season … how will Jon prove to everyone he is Lyanna´s son?
Hell yGriff looked like a Targ and noone belived he was the real deal.
I hate to be a dick….. but this is a classic example of why some people create things and other people dont. How many COTF do you think there are left? They would sacrifice 4 of their own? Why even show Bran that they created the White Walkers?
All of your “why didn’t they do this?”, “Why didn’t they tell Bran blah blah blah?”…… If they did all those things there wouldn’t be a TV show.
And as shown ked as the 3ER looked when young Ned heard Bran call his name at the ToJ seems to prove that he didn’t know that Bran was that strong that he could effect or interact with the past.
And why didn’t Bran just not go into the Weirwood without the 3ER? Maybe it’s Bran who is the one who wants to end the world. Lol
thurg00d420,
Good question we may never know. But the show does pay a lot of attention to small details like looks and hair and personality. Twin to Jon I think and hope .oldest story twins separated at birth. Only they never find out. Cause it grrm.
But… but… if I hear “Jojen” instead, then the scene supports the Jon+Meera=Twins “theory”!
That one is not quite as silly as “Howland Reed is the High Sparrow,” or “Euron is Daario” or “Benjen is Everyone” or …. OK, well, it joins a long list of silly ideas.
They pay no more attention to this in casting than do most shows: which is to say, “none.”
The sole clue (i.e., Harrington & Kendrick have curly hair) does not apply to the books, where the characters look nothing alike. And, let’s face it: sharing curly hair is extraordinarily weak evidence of relationship, as the vast majority of people sharing curly hair do not share recent common ancestors.
Am I the only one dreaming of
Frey Pie?Edit: Hope I did spoiler correctly – if not, please help, admins!
Um, that would be me. Thanks Jack, for asking a question that pulled me back in. I have yet to comment on the episode – I will – probably tomorrow, but it moved me far beyond what I would have thought it would move me. So many heart-wrenching events. The words got jumbled and are just now settling.
But that preview showing austere, unsmiling, extremely disapproving and suspicious Randyll, giving sidelong glances at Sam, I’m assuming. Wouldn’t you hate to come against that guy on a battlefield? Yes, I’m excited to see what he’s about, to see what Horn Hill looks like, and meet Sam’s kind mother and lovely sister. And the brother in whose favor Sam was brutally tossed aside.
In the filming pics this summer, Horn Hill looked magnificent. I think everyone is going to be surprised to see what luxury Sam was born into. I hope Gilly charms them to pieces. I believe she will be successful with everyone but the Stern One. Don’t forget, Randyll is one the verge of being mobilized to King’s Landing to fight the High Sparrow and the sparrowlings, so maybe he won’t be around long enough to cause Sam too much grief.
Tycho Nestoris,
There was a lot of evidence that pointed to something bigger, in the books and the show; just hidden in the details. I dont need to get into it now, since the TER said otherwise, I doubt he is wrong. I kind of regret bringing it up, I read so much into this stuff and people misquote things all the time, which is what led to me mixing up who the TER mentioned in the show.
In this case, it is not about Jon convincing anyone: it’s about convincing Jon. And Jon is going to have to learn this, because what Ned did to keep that secret almost certainly is going to have a huge influence on Jon’s final actions.
Some fans do not think so. However, the only people doubting it in the books are people that have not met YG.
Actually you add 100% wrong. He’s says “That’s Meera’s father” with no mention of Jojen. Don’t hurt yourself reaching so hard.
Sir Imp hand Strong,
Maybe bran is being mislead for blood ravens own targ blood. The war to come ice vs fire =h20 we need a Noah. Instead of 2 of everything how bout 3 or just a half.or 3 1/2 no fuckit drown them all.bitter sweet = a grey joy?
There is nothing in the books to support this. People might have imagined it – much of the putative “evidence” for these sorts of ideas is from fans’ imaginations rather than GRRM’s – but it’s not there. Meera looks much like Jojen in the books, and both of them have features in hair and eye color that evidently are common among Crannogmen, and pretty much unknown in the Starks.
Does anyone else have a problem with the possibility of Theon going with Yara to help Dany out. I just kept thinking to myself how many times are you going to switch sides man! I kinda want him dead at this point.
I have a spoilery question that I posted in that cluster of a leaked ep thread yesterday but it got lost. Wondering if any of our big brains like Luka or Jared or even Wimsey can hazard a guess at this?
It’s so fascinating to see that Bran’s storyline and Jon’s storyline have now really taken over as the most well-liked and anticipated storylines, while King’s Landing firmly held that position in the first four seasons.
I know that now, others have beat you to that already, it was my mistake, I already explained myself, thank you. It wasnt reaching, I could care less, you people talk theories all day on this site and are wrong all the time. I read reviews and comments all the time and someone clouded my memory by saying it was Jojen somewhere at some point. Try not acting hard, you look like a cowardly keyboard warrior.
I hope English isn’t your first language because everything you’ve said us pure gibberish, rambling that makes no sense.
Speaking about that, what was that sword Meera was using in the battle? The one she got off the “weapons rack” in front of the cave?
Wimsey,
Am I the only one who comes up with theories? Last I checked there is like 100 of them. Are we to believe everything the show/books tells us? By that logic, Jon is the bastard son of Ned. EOS.
I’m kinda liking it. Will be cool to see when the two strong women meet and when Theon sees how strong and manly eunuchs (The Unsullied) can be.
You are an idiot. You just completely made up something just because it fit what you wanted to think. Did you only watch the episode once? How do you not go back to check? There is videos all over? Keyboard warrior but at least I don’t hear things just because I want to hear them.
What did you call me? A keyboard winner? Thanks bro.
thurg00d420,
I like the theories (especially the tin foil-y ones). It’s unfortunate the reactions to these are sometimes mean spirited. I hope I didn’t come across that way. I love the crazy theories (even when there turn out to be “wrong”). The crazy theories are my favorite part of watching the show and reading the books.
How could you say that – next week we definitely get Benjen/Cold Hands.
I also think we get another piece of the puzzle which is the tower of Joy. This season is like a runaway train, no way do they hold that for episode 10.
Will Jon go through the Neck to get to the Riverlands? What are the possibilities he runs into Howland Reed and the R+L=J reveal happens then and not through Bran at all? It seems to me Bran will have a lot on his agenda and not be so curious as to what happened at ToJ as he was before the recent developments…
Sir Imp hand Strong,
Oo what was I thinking, trying to engage in conversation with people about a series I love, ablieght wrong, cuz yeah, I messed up by getting who the TER said, cuz yeah, That episode I did only watch once. Dont act like you are all mighty and know everything, I wouldnt be surprised if you were one of the people guaranteeing TOJ2 as episode 5, how that work out? FOH, people come up wit theories all the time, I screwed up on mine and manned up about it and you wanna keep going on about? Take a hike.
Wimsey,
> Probably not. I can see them wanting to go more of a character-bonding route for the next two riders
Like, Tyrion releasing them? 😉
(so does he steal the Horn in WoW to achieve the same?)
I am.
Maybe this has been discussed, but I’m confused with that quick shot in the preview. It’s blended with Sam saying, “I didn’t think I’d ever come back here,” so I think we all assume that’s Horn Hill. The only thing is, it looks nothing like Castell de Santa Florentina that is supposedly confirmed for use as Horn Hill. It’s considerably smaller than the trailer shot, is in a heavy wooded area and it has several round towers. I think that building at the beginning of the trailer better matches the description of Highgarden. I was assuming they’d port in Old Town and travel to Horn Hill, but Highgarden is closer if go up the river and port there.
George,
I think it was a sword she brought with her when she got to the cave. And the spears were probably made with Sam’s dragonglass.
Wylie,
Robert Aramayo is supposed to be in two more episodes one small and one big later on. I can imagine what will be the big one as the reveal, but what is the small one about is the question? I would say we’ll get Sansa/Davos scene at least one. It seems really strange they way they handled Jon and Mel relationship. She seems tired, depressed all the time. Partially glad Jon is not bepoming fanatic or to much trusting in Mel and R’hllor.
If you’re talking about next week, I’d say they will travel to Bear Island and then we’ll get a decent amount of time in episode 7. I would imagine Jon’s speech and Davos too. Maybe even Sansa as she’s now stronger than ever. One episode is supposd to be focused on Jon and it coud be battle or something else with R+L=J.
Cersei’s Brain,
I’ve been wondering that ALL day! The magic of The Children helped build the wall. Unless Brans arm heals quickly (and forgets) or there is some other miraculous revelation then maybe the wall comes tumbling down at the season finale (once there is a Stark in winterfell)? They’re going to be SO tired.
Tycho Nestoris,
You’re good, my bad if I came off the wrong way. I put my foot in my own mouth by reading too much crap on websites and blogs, I should go back and watch the episodes more instead of spending time at places like this. I like the theories though, it just sucks when you read into one that makes you look stupid cuz you forget what really happened, like what I just did, lol
Accusations are being made and lines are being drawn on this thread. Reputations and honor are at stake. Trial by Combat anyone?
Clob,
I think they might have just used the Castel for the interior and some shots of the courtyard…
Geralt of Rivia,
Yes, I think Aramayo is supposed to be in next week’s episode. That’s why I thought it could be the continuation of the ToJ and hence we’d get a scene with Jon as well.
Making the 8,
Im down hahahaa
This used to be such a nice site for an exchange of ideas – what has happened.
What’s wrong with you people, why are you calling our friends idiots, morons, assholes just because they dare to put forward a thought or idea that differs from you?
Somehow children have found and have infiltrated this wonderful site that our hardworking Admins have nurtured from infancy. Unfortunately, we are now dealing with growing pains.
Unless you are GRRM – Stop it immediately!!!
Yeah, I suppose that could be it. If that is Horn Hill in the shot Gilly is in for a big surprise! The damn thing looks like IT could be the Citadel. The Tarly house would certainly seem a lot more major in the show than I thought when reading.
Massive!
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oLNzjpBtVBA/V0KyldLb6bI/AAAAAAAAA8U/5NG-lQCT6uMwuc50ywwc9-5xGBKT63w2ACKgB/s320/Game%2Bof%2BThrones%2BSeason%2B6%2BEpisode%2B%25236%2BPreview%2B%2528HBO%2529.mp4_snapshot_00.05_%255B2016.05.23_09.12.33%255D.jpg
My guess is that he arrives just as Lyanna is about to give birth and they have a brief scene to establish who she is and what’s happening in 6 and then the birth, promise me Ned, etc happens in 10.
My other, less-likely guess is the time we see him briefly in 6 is non-TOJ related. My first stab at it would be him and Robert and Jon Arryn at the Vale before the war. My only other guess would be him bringing home “his” bastard to Catelyn after the war. Book Catelyn was definitely a “young stunner.”
Wylie,
What if ToJ is the shorter scene? Could the longer scene be Old Whent’s tourney? If the longer scene is ToJ, then the shorter scene could be Starfall?
With how well D&D have brought to life book rumors (Hardhome, Balon’s death), I would love for them to have a go at the Harrenhal tourney. Not likely as WotW would have caught wind of castings for all the characters there. Anyone who is anyone was there *snobby*.
Making the 8,
Benjen Hype.
thurg00d420,
Alive and in the cave at that. That was very interesting
I am scared that they will kill off the rest of the direwolves too, Ghost is probably getting killed by RAmsey or whatever:/
The writers always favoured the dragons over the direwolves…
Matt,
I hope he just scoops them up mid chase and says, “no time for introductions, I am your monster, Bran.” Haha that’s awful. I am excited because this can only be two people imo.
The link is from the season 6 trailer.
Yes I have been patiently waiting for the return. I suggest an animated series to show the adventures he has had since we last saw him. Just please don’t have GRRM write it because the last thing he needs in another distraction from the son of kong.
From reading the Duncan and Egg stories…. Bloodraven wasn’t exactly a great guy, standup heroine; so accepting him (in 3 eyed raven form) as being totally “good” doesn’t fit his profile… So there could be something to these theories of COTF and BR being not what they appear to be.
Martin said flat out that Benjen is not ColdHands. But that’s book related. If the TV show never introduces Cold Hands then it’s perfectly fine for Benjen to fill the role of saving Bran and Meera after the Door scene. While in the books, the savior would be ColdHands.
The thing i can’t wrap my head around right now….
Why did BloodRaven take Bran to such an seemingly insignificant seen in time, for his final vision? (obviously he could have fried Hodors brain at any point…so why not make that final vision together VERY significant?)
Daario?? 😛
Pretty good episode but the complete lack of fucks given for Summer dying shows just how little this show values the wolves. I mean why include them at all when you don’t want to use the CGI and they’ve become disposable for shock value?
Clob,
I walked right into that didn’t I?
Laura,
If you are referring to the “gag” (to use the nomenclature) that they had not included in the past couple of seasons but were in Season 6 that D&D referenced, that was the Melisandre reveal I believe.
I think people are reading too much into the fact Bran and Bloodraven were in Winterfell for their last journey. When he found out the cave was going to be attacked, he said it was time to show him everything. Where they began and what he intended to show we may never know. It definitely wasn’t just that. The Army of the Dead didn’t find out about Bran and then move from the Land of Always Winter to the cave in five minutes. A fair amount of time elapsed off-screen. The Winterfell courtyard with Hodor present just happened to be where they were when the army did arrive. It doesn’t mean there was any special significance to that particular place. It wasn’t the first place they went.
I’ve also seen people say the tree where the Children created the Night’s King was the same tree with the cave. It’s definitely not the same tree. It was much smaller, for one, and also dead in the present. The cave tree didn’t have the same spiral stones emanating from it. And the tree from the vision was surrounded by mountains. The cave is not. Wherever that was, it’s way north of there. It’s the home of the White Walkers, probably near where they took Craster’s sons to turn them.
This makes me wonder more and more what their real motivation is, though. I could certainly see that guy wanting revenge for being turned into an unkillable ice demon and being made to survive for thousands of years frozen beneath the ground after the long night, but that would seemingly be revenge on the Children if they made him. Why does he hate men and why does he want to destroy Westeros? We now know all of them started as men. Why would they become single-minded killing machines when they get turned? There has to be more to it than that.
Trust No One,
My guess is that, while 3ER knew that the NK would break into the cave at some point and kill him, he did not know the timing of it. Therefore, when the timing became imminent he took him on that vision as Hodor had to be created (by having his brain fried) out of Wylis so that Hodor could save Bran when the NK arrived (if Hodor had been a normal boy, he would not have ended up as Bran’s mode of conveyance). I am happy to be corrected by others, but that was the “logic” I saw in spending their last moments in that particular vision.
Laura,
Trust No One,
And I agree BR was an enigmatic character, like Quaithe and Mel, which is why, even though they are not main or even major characters, I am interested in their stories.
Dammit D&D, of course you can’t give us a happy Stark reunion. One episode in and Sansa is lying to Jon, Inside the Episode tells us that Sansa isn’t a clean pure Stark and she doesn’t really trust Jon.
D&D essentially told us that Sansa doesn’t have the right intentions “clean and pure” with Jon. She’s forced him into this war, and I LOVE Jon and Sansa together but it was so so so so so so clear to me that Sansa’s demeanor when she gave Jon the cloak was manipulation. It didn’t feel genuine AT ALL. It felt entirely like she was being Margaery, and Jon, who in some ways is still so naive was touched instead of seeing what she’s doing. That whole small council style meeting, Jon was just staring at Sansa – I think he really doesn’t know what to make of her and her intentions. And then with the cloak, she wins him over again.
D&D told us that she doesn’t have the purest intentions. LF already planted the half-brother seed in her mind. I said at the beginning of the season that I don’t think Sansa and Jon are 1000% on the same side and this episode proved it.
I don’t understand why people are making excuses for her lies. If Sansa told Jon the truth – her history with LF, how she ended up marrying Ramsay (seriously, are you all assuming Jon didn’t even ask “how/why did you marry him? OF COURSE HE KNOWS), and that LF came back but Sansa turned her back on him because she doesn’t trust him, you think Jon wouldn’t support her??? OF COURSE he would’ve, and Sansa, knowing what Jon has been through, should know that. The fact that she lied shows it’s not because she’s embarrassed about LF, it’s that there’s something else at work – she doesn’t want him to know there’s an army that could be loyal to her alone.
Also, why is this show acting like Jon didn’t die and COME BACK TO LIFE?! It is weird as all hell that everyone is acting like it’s no big deal. Jon/Mel don’t interact. We don’t even hear anyone have a “wow that’s crazy” reaction to it. Brienne makes a joke about him being broody because of it. Meanwhile Jon just stands there and looks at Sansa inscrutably while she calls the shots. It is very very weird.
Obviously the only thing that will keep the Stark vs. Snow/Stark conflict at bay will be if they find out who Jon really is, because then it’s clear that the claim is Sansa’s. But if TOJ is only shown in episode 10, I wonder if we’ll see Jon/Sansa conflict after the BotB.
*still in mourning* I don’t look good in black. *whimpers*
Sir Imp hand Strong,
Aside from the fact that he’s a teenager, he probably never watched The Sorcerer and the Apprentice at an early age 🙂
Hmm, that could be it but I seem to remember one of the visual effects guys saying “how are we going to do that???” incredulously and I don’t know if aging up Melisandre would inspire that kind of head scratching.
Ok, found the quote:
“Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought ‘Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4,” says Gower. “And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out.”
From here: https://watchersonthewall.com/internet-breaking-white-walker-scene-and-incredible-vfx-gag-in-season-6-probably/
Adam,
I agree with your sentiments about the last vision and NK tree. I do want to point out that Craster’s is south of Bran. Craster’s is closer to the wall and the Haunted forest. I think Bran may head North to the Others “home.”
Edit: sorry when you wrote “took” i thought you meant “took from” rather than “took to.”
Tycho Nestoris,
Benjen will guide bran .and probably more info we really need. Maybe the horn that falls the wall.a lot of falls happen this season. I expect to see a few more. Foreshadowing in every seen last night .fav of series by far.
Sansa reminded me a lot of Cersei when she met with littlefinger. I have no idea if this was intended or not, but if it was kudos to Sophie Turner’s acting skills.
Making the 8,
Didn’t Jamie give it to Brienne?
Sad song of ice and fire fighting for wrong reasons the world will have to change. A new continent for the beautiful ww northeroes for them !.starks back were there should always be one.blood raven is not a good guy trying to help bran. Just the opposite. Pulling strings the whole time.to the laughing tree to mad king being told bY voice in head to burn them all.start with Ned’s dad and older bro.raven was there a lot earlier on in series. Mostly bad things happen to starks.because he is killing them nights king is a stark.may just want to help bran get away from the raven.his name is a foreshadowing bloodraven come on its like sigh training a Jedi.brynden rivers of time .bran is a power green sight far better than bloodcraven.to the starks he know the blood has mingled targ stark.he was around. During blackfyr rebilion. For the true targs.its plain he knows something. And everyone has own agenda.
Everyone looks good in black! After all: it’s the new black AND the old black all at once!
Nadia,
She will tell him about LF, right as she tell Jon to lop his head off for causing the death of their father. Jon does not know little finger, he has an army which Sansa knows she needs or might be useful, so yes she tells him no, but in the back of her mind, she knows he will stick around in case she might need to call back on it. Do u seriously want LF interacting with Jon and the rest of characters. Does she? He will manipulate them all and have chaos, then swoop in and take the north. Which probably is what he’s still planning….and more than likely she knows that. LF is a fox, evrybody at the wall are like hens. She is the only one who has any idea of his true nature and intentions. Then the part about her drawing Jon into battle….what else was he going to do. His brother is a prisoner at Winterfell. Whether she was there or not, there was no way he could leave, no way. Not to mention the WW. Blaming her for Jon entering the fight is just ridiculous IMO. And I think she will find out LF betray Ned by Bran and that will be the nail in his coffin.
Ok so I was just thinking. Brandon is stuck in warg state. Bran is going to wake up with a lot of information on a lot of things. D&D is using the travel they are doing to give Bran the information instead of using screen time for his visions. Bran is like a computer downloading 3ER hard drive. This is going to be crazy. By the time he gets to Winterfell which I’m thinking is after the battle he may know everything the 3ER knows.
But what are “pure intentions,” anyway? I think that Sansa’s intentions are simple: restoring the Starks to Winterfell. Part of the problem might be that her intentions are too simple: she still is expecting other people to have such simple intentions. However, everyone else has other intentions: in particular, saving their own families from everything else. And one of the recurring themes of Martins’ stories is that good intentions will often come into conflict with one another.
Er, isn’t that on the viewers to have “fucks” for the Dire Wolf? And I wouldn’t say that viewers are indifferent: I think that it’s just that Hodor’s exit happened afterwards and in so much more profound a way.
As for the Dire Wolves, at this point, I think that they simply might never wind up being very important to the story. Summer was a springboard for Bran learning how to Warg: but that has already happened, and there is zero guarantee that he will be important to Bran’s development in the future. (Right now, I am betting that he won’t be.) Nymmeria might be a useful plot device in the future in the books that can be replaced on the show. Jon might never learn how to warg. And Rickon is never going to be more than a background character.
It is quite possible that BR had seen that this is what happens already. In a way, being there is ensuring that Bran escapes.
I would bet that both Coldhands and Summer will buy it during the attack in the books. (Alternatively, I would not be surprised if Coldhands winds up reverting to a normal wight as a result of the sack.) Remember, Benjen is still out there doing something in both media: so perhaps this is when he somehow returns. He doesn’t have to take over Coldhands role: he can do whatever Benjen’s role is.
How will Sansa learn about LF’s role in Ned’s death?
Wimsey,
Thru Brandon. He’s in a warg coma state, I’m thinking he’s getting all the info 3ER knows.
Beer Island,
That strikes me as a bit convoluted.
Wimsey,
Nadia: D&D told us that she doesn’t have the purest intentions.
But what are “pure intentions,” anyway? I think that Sansa’s intentions are simple: restoring the Starks to Winterfell. Part of the problem might be that her intentions are too simple: she still is expecting other people to have such simple intentions. However, everyone else has other intentions: in particular, saving their own families from everything else. And one of the recurring themes of Martins’ stories is that good intentions will often come into conflict with one another.
You don’t think she also wants revenge, now that she is in somewhat a position of actually doing so? Her out of all people would want Ramsey dead. And maybe LF.
Where did everyone get this idea that they’re killing off the direwolves because they’re “too expensive?” They’re killing them because they die, and moreover, their deaths mean something (Summer’s death is only the most symbolic of all). Yes, they had a reputation for being expensive back in Seasons 1 and 2, but the show has made just a LITTLE bit of money since then and has raised the bar to the point that it’s managed to pull off much, much more impressive feats of CGI than the direwolves. This “D&D are cheap and killing them off to save money!” nonsense is just an excuse going around the Internet from people who are tired of seeing them die and refuse to accept their deaths. That said, though…
Also, I found Kit really inscrutable in his scene with his team. He’s watching Sansa basically the whole time in the back and forth between her and Davos, but it’s hard to tell his reaction.
Is she pointing out that with her being by Jon’s side – and him being every bit the son of Ned Stark as Ramsay was of Roose – that together they have a strong claim? Or was she pushing her own claim before Jon’s, before backtracking a second later, or reminding them that she shouldn’t be taken slightly?
Also, when Jon stares at her, was it because he was hurt by her pointing out she has the Stark name and that he doesn’t, or flattered she pointed him out as being Ned’s son in a way she hadn’t before?
Also, did anyone get strong manipulation vibes from Sansa in that cloak scene? It just didn’t feel really sincere to me, I don’t know. It felt the way Margaery acts.
Why do people think theon and yara are
Going to dany?
Wimsey,
Now that Bran can go back in time, there’s nothing stopping him from discovering anything at all. I guess the convoluted bit would be his reason for going back to that moment out of all others…but he might, if he meets Littlefinger.
I really hate how powerful Bran is. Not attacking the show here; same is true in the novels.
Maybe because they have nowhere else to go. Their uncle wants them dead, and they’re not liked either south or north of the Neck. They just found out that there’s a queen with three dragons on Meereen who needs a navy. They have the navy. Why not turn her into an ally?
Summer is dead… and Winter is coming.
Summer is dead… and Winter is finally coming!
SUMMER DEAD = WINTER COMING! AHHHH!
I mean COME ON… how more appropriate a death could Summer have had? It was beautiful. What else do people want for their direwolves? I’m seriously considering getting 6 direwolf tattoos right now, I love them too but tone the denial down a bit… they’ve been in the show a LOT all things considered. They’ve used real wolves. They looked distinctive, they looked BIG and I’ve loved every little tidbit of it.
I want my
and that would be epic. But all the direwolves have died or been willing to die to protect the Starks… it’s what they do…
Wimsey,
from reddit. def some things that can support the theory. stop speaking in absolutes.
-Meera was born in the same year as Robb and Jon, and we know nothing whatsoever about her mother. We’ve assumed up to this point that her mother is -Howland’s wife, Jyana, but we know nothing about this character except her name and that she exists (because Jojen has to come from somewhere, and I don’t buy the theory that he’s Howland in disguise).
-Meera’s physical description is very similar to Lyanna’s and Arya’s. She’s slim and flat-chested, attractive without being traditionally beautiful. She’s got the martial prowess that Lyanna had, and her cheerful but fiery personality is reminiscent of what we know about Lyanna.
– The odds of Lyanna dying in childbirth seem more likely if she had twins.
-Howland certainly owes Lyanna a debt, which we know thanks to the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Him taking a second child and hiding it at Greywater Watch could certainly have happened in the time between the TOJ and Ned returning to Winterfell (Ned returning with TWO bastards would have been a real stretch, and having the children in the same place would have put them in much worse danger if their true parentage was discovered.). Is there a more perfect place to hide someone who doesn’t want to be found than Greywater Watch?
-The northern houses that could propose marriage alliances with the Starks seemed to be at least interested (the Karstarks wanting to marry Alys to Robb), but despite Howland having a daughter of the exact same age, he shows zero interest in such an arrangement (Close friends/allies with children of the same age generally seem very interested in marrying their kids off to each other…but not here…).
– It gives the dragon a third head in a very “neat” way, which seems much more up Martin’s alley than making Tyrion a bastard or having Bran warg into the third dragon.
Cons:
-The biggest hole in this theory, no doubt, is that Meera has green eyes. No Starks have green eyes (Lyanna and Jon both have gray eyes), and no recent Targaryens have had green eyes either (1/2 of Shiera Seastar doesn’t count). However, wouldn’t giving Meera gray (or violet) eyes give this away way too soon? Howland Reed knows some magic thanks to his time on the Isle of Faces, and crannogmen have been described as being able to “blend in” to the neck. Changing her eye color to throw the readers off the scent isn’t something I’d put past Martin, if he really wanted this to be a surprise.
– She doesn’t show up in any of the prophecies. There’s no foreshadowing or prophecy that mentions twins (AFAIK).
– Bloodraven or the COTF might sense her importance (she’s in their cave, after all), but if she seems significant to them, they aren’t showing it.
-She’s short (which I don’t remember being particular of Lyanna), but could this be a byproduct of growing up in the (presumably cramped) Neck?
– If she’s stuck in that cave north of the wall when winter hits, how is she going to become relevant to the story anytime soon? No easy answer here.
Wimsey,
I think that’s what D&D are doing. It would not happen that way in the books but it makes sense on the show. The 3ER told Bran he needs to know everything. He brought him into that vision to save them from the WW in the cave. Hodor is dead, there is no other reason for Bran to be still in a coma
Wimsey,
Btw sorry I didn’t see which one u you replied to. But yes, I think Bran will learn about LF and Ned in the visions.
Ashley,
Me too!!
Of course. But that is not an “impure” motive in this world. Indeed, it would be dishonorable (and thus “impure”) for Sansa to not seek vengeance for her family. Under the moral code of the Westerosi aristocracy, good people do everything that they can to further their family fortunes.
People also seem to have a notion that the Dire Wolves figure prominently in the storylines. But with the exception of Bran & Summer, they do not: and Summer’s contribution to Bran’s plotline and storyline might well be done. (The symbolism that you notice really should have been a foreshadowing all along that Summer was going to die: we were collectively foolish to not see it earlier.) Arya’s link to Nymmeria is a minor plot element in the book. But Ghost barely affects Jon’s story. Lady has been out of Sansa’s from the start.
That would be much too arbitrary. LF’s demise will be part of the story, not some arbitrary plot event. Right now, the story is about the costs of making implausible and/or distasteful alliances. At this stage, Sansa putting her pride behind her and accepting Baelish’s offer would be in keeping with the story.
But the other thing is: we still have not learned what the heck Baelish is doing or why. He is some sort of self-appointed Agent Provocateur: but to what end? There has to be a big “reveal” of the strategy underlying his tactics before he dies.
Damn. I’m crying again. Ugh. Hodor. :'(
Laura,
I think they basically confirmed that Mel was it but I could be wrong
Nice post mortem
One thing about why it hits pol emotionally is that with summer BR, leaf and hodor dying in sequence is that it really is about winds of winter rolling in
Eg Summer is gone
Childhood innocence is gone
Bran has to grow up b4 he ready (as Ned did) which means his childhood is over (as was Neds in a sense)
And of course Hodor, the one guy in the show and perhaps books who is of pure heart etc
A really great sequence
Dee,
Because that’s what
… also the pictures for the season show Yara in an establishment that appears to be Volantis … so it would appear they are heading east
Theon has switched sides exactly once, when he made the very wrong decision of betraying his TRUE family for the sperm donor who gave less then a shit about him. He was never on Ramsays side, he was his slave. and as soon as he escaped he went back to Iron Islands.
I actually think it is good plot wise for Yara and Theon to align with Dany now. At some point TeamJon and TeamDany are going to have to stand together to fight TeamNightsKing and there needs to be bridges between them like Tyrion and Theon to make that happen
Soooooo why did Ned or anyone else never tell the Stark children how Hodor was once a boy named Wyllis who had a massive seizure one day where he screamed “hold the door” and from then on in became a halfwit that only said the word “hodor”. Also, why did everyone rename him “hodor” instead of calling him by his name Wyllis? Seems cruel.
thurg00d420,
thank you I also think there is a lot more going on in the toj meera and jon are twins Ned takes jon and Reed takes meera they make a promise or a pact to LS to never speak of the events just my 2 cents
In the vision of Winterfell, Rickard tells young Ned, “Try to stay out of fights. But if you have to fight, win.” I think this was meant both to reassure Bran that Ned and Howland Reed were right to do whatever was necessary to win at the TOJ and to help Bran to understand and accept that he would have to do the same against the White Walkers.
Wimsey,
Tbf the Direwolves are highly thematic, Bran and Sunmer are
But Aryas “Wolf Dreams” r what prevents her from ever yruly becominh no one. Plus the wolf pack may protect her in the future in yhat they’ll b able 2 sniff out FM after her
Ghost is that, Jon will run around like a Ghost forn a while and learn things
Lady dying is severance of Sansa to the Stark side of her and the North
I actually reckon sweetrobin will get LF, but Sansa/Alayne will conyrol Sweetrobin
Personally reckon LF scheme involved his Braavosi ancesyry and relayes to Burgeois revolution, eg bankrupt the Aristocracy, bind them to debt servitude to Braavos and put Burgeois merchants into power (Masters of Slavers Bay are like merchant Lords)
ladywolfsbane,
Summer’s death rubbed me the wrong way because he went out wimpering. By my count he got exactly one wight in the cave sequence. After that he really didn’t do anything. Even when he stays behind, he just gets butchered immediately. I believe that if Summer dies in the cave sequence in WoW, he’ll have a more prominent role in making sure Bran and Meera escape. Essentially Leaf and Wylis do the most to save Bran and Meera. That’s why I think the logistics (may not be money) of the direwolf shots reduced their screen time. Maybe we see wight Summer and Nym’s pack. Not sure how I would feel about that.
It does seem like the Others were more concerned with 3ER than Bran. NK and 3ER have a history that I am interested to hear (tin foil) speculation about.
Also, I missed the scar on young Wylis’ forehead. Where’d that come from? In the end, one of the best sequences in film I have seen in some time. Certainly my favorite Thrones moment so far.
Mihnea,
Their make up application last a GoT season length.
Gord Blimey mate, me ol’ ice spear don’t ‘ave ‘arf the cut’n power of those Valyrian steel swords those ‘orrible geezers dun sowf ‘ave these days … In’nit 🙂
Haha… I come from SE London and speak cockney fluently and know rhythm’n slang also. Me ‘old man’ was a good teacher. 🙂
As it happens, the actor Dean-Charles Chapman who plays King Tommen naturally speaks ‘wiv a real gord blimey’ accent, but sounds more like he’s from Essex, Just checked in Google and he does! There are subtle differences. To be classed as a genuine cockney, one has to be born within the sound of Bow Bells (the church of St Mary Le Bow) in the City of London. I was born in Southwark on the south bank of the River Thames which just falls within in the range of where the bells can (or did) be heard, so guess I would qualify! Completely off topic but though I’d mention it.
Here is a clip of DCC chatting and his accent is pretty close to cockney 🙂
Wolf dreams have contributed so far: but they will not be sole cause of Arya’s choice to remain Arya. Remember, this is a character-driven story: Arya is one of the protagonists, and thus the story derives from how/why she chooses to be what she does. As for what the pack does, that is plot, not story: and as I noted, plot devices are replaceable.
Jon does not know how to warg: he won’t be doing that. Moreover, because Jon is completely unskilled at warging despite his innate talent, the best he can do is accidentally see things through Ghost’s eyes. As we saw with Bran, it takes a lot of training and practice to turn the talent into skill. As such, Jon cannot maintain a human mind inside of Ghost. Even those highly skilled wargs that can use animals as “drones” run the risk of becoming lost in the animal if they stay too long.
(Again, the second life is not cloud storage of the human mind in an animal: it’s the vestige of a human leaving a trace on the animal that seemingly is more emotional than intellectual. And, no “Stark! Targaryen!” mean nothing here: GRRM is not Tolkien, and nothing in his texts hangs this gun on the wall.)
Making the 8,
Benjen Stark will save them
Someone please answer these questions ?????
Will the three eyed raven, the children of the forest, Hodor and Summer come back as wights ??
Also, since Summer and Hodor are dead, who will Bran warg into ? Does that mean his warging career is over and he is now the new three eyed raven ???
Yesterday I was in shock. Today I’m sad.
Sam the player,
1) I don’t think so. They won’t come back.
2) Bran can warg into anyone he wants
I honestly don’t know what to think – and I wonder if that’s how it’s meant to be. The way I see it, Sansa is conflicted as well. I think Littlefinger’s parting jab about the army not being hers and Jon not being her full brother successfully planted a tiny seed of doubt in her mind about Jon’s loyalty and his potential to follow through with her plan. I don’t doubt that she loves him, and wants to trust him. But she’s been through so much, and getting Winterfell back is something she really, really wants. Sansa hasn’t seen Jon in years and probably didn’t even know him that well before then. How is she to know if Jon hasn’t changed in that time, become more cynical and wary, the way she has? How does she know he’s telling the truth, when virtually everyone else has lied to her and let her down?
The irony of that is that we, the audience, have absolutely no doubts about Jon’s integrity and loyalty. Jon, like Ned, is pretty much incapable of scheming and dishonesty. I think Sansa knows that, and it won’t take long for him to convince her of his worth. She seemed to be oblivious to the doubt she was harbouring about him (she seemed genuinely surprised when Brienne called her on it). So I don’t think it will blow out into a full on Stark v Stark scenario. Or, at least I hope it doesn’t.
I’d like to believe the cloak was her attempt to atone for her guilt at realising she was holding something back from Jon. But I suppose it could be flattery, to help win Jon to her side. She mightn’t know that she doesn’t need to do that with him. She’ll learn that in time.
As for Jon, I think he was confused by the whole thing too. I don’t think he suspects his sister of lying to him; that would really hurt him to know. But in the meeting, I think he was quite taken aback by how much she’s changed from the girl he knew (talking war strategy etc; no longer the ‘lady’). I agree that the part about the Stark name stung him – Edd gave her a side-eye for that too. Sansa’s recovery was a bit clumsy but I don’t think she meant to emphasise his bastard status. She was trying to say that people wouldn’t necessarily care, because he’s still Ned’s son. I think it did the job and mollified him. And then later he seemed genuinely touched by the gift.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go away and cry about Hodor some more.
I was one who yelled that to a colleague of mine yesterday, but nooooo, she didn’t hold the door.. Only Hodor truly holds the door 🙁
#heheldthedoor
To me, she is legitimizing him as The Commander of her troops by giving him the insignia carried by their Father – who commanded Northern Army during Robert’s Rebellion – and (full) brother. I think it could amount as “manipulation” in a modern psychodrama aspect of the show. But there is also a strong Military History aspect in the story – GRRM himself if a big Military History buff, some of his earliest fiction is set on Napoleonic Wars Era I too have studied a lot – , and I personally saw this scene from that point of view. So, I think she sincerely wants Jon to lead her Army. She knows she can’t do it herself, since doesn’t have any Military training. It doesn’t mean she is going to double cross him – in Mediavel and Pre-Modern European History ASOIAF is based on, there are several examples of rulers who were not military masterminds themselves, but had trusted, and well rewarded generals.
I do agree Sansa’s actions are irrational, but this is where the psychodrama aspect of the story comes to play. We must remember Sansa has been deeply traumatised, both mentally and physically, by Ramsay, and blame Littlefinger. In that way, her story is parallel to that of Jon – he is deeply traumatised by being betrayed by his Brothers and having been dead for a while. They’ve both had a character change that, in modern terms, is very common sign of PTSD. This season’s main Northern storyline is as much about Sansa and Jon overcoming their PTSD as trying to reclaim Winterfell. Other Stark POV Stark kids, Bran and Arya, have been battling this since the first novel and the season, and have had their psychological storylines going “dark” sooner than Jon and Sansa, maybe also because they are younger. In that sense, I see Sansa and Jon tied together narratively, and their faith ultimate faith being much more similar than their younger siblings’.
Oh, also, no, Margaery’s manipulation is very much based on knowing use of sexual seduction, even with Sansa. Sansa misses this aspect, she is a beauty on screen and is repeatedly described as such in the books, yet she seems somewhat unaware of her power. Looking for historical parallels, it seems to be a canon confirmed by the choice of actor that Margaery is based largely on Anne Boley. Sansa is less obvious, but there are some paralles to both to Elizabeth I and Mary, Queen of Scots.
fdr,
Speaking of dragons it now feels like when Tyrion released them and then there’s no follow-up it was just a “cool scene” they wanted. I want to know how they are, who’s feeding them, are they able to leave the dungeon and fly or just walking around down there?
Nadia,
I have a bad feeling
[LF is going to play Sansa. BF is under siege. She doesn’t get any support from the Riverlands. Two known figures on crosses….has there been any word of Pod and B returning for Bastard Bowl? Or Blackfish… Imo it’s two of these three. There was a leak LF shows up to save the day at BB. I think LF uses that as his in and somehow gets between Jon and Sansa. Might even stop Jon from killing Ramsay to keep as a hostage. Idk for what exactly. Just worried Sansa will somehow fall short in the long run and have a similar fate as Cat. Hope not. While I’m throwing things out there, now that the magical protection has been proven to be broken without use of objects like horns. Wouldn’t it be weird if theses thought to be magical horns to control or destroy things were actually to communicate. Like a hearing horn that translates dragon or WW….idk it’s late/]
Talvivaara,
I agree with a lot of your analysis. I also see hints of guilt.
Indeed, when people discuss her not “trusting him” with the info about the meeting w/ Littlefinger, I think it’s way less “I don’t trust him to keep me safe and I’m going to hold back information,” and far more “I don’t trust that he know’s I’m a grown woman who can make my own decisions, and I don’t want to get in a fight about running off to see LF without telling him”.
Then, she makes the coat as a sort of apology without admitting her guilt.
That’s my theory.
ThisGirlHasNoName,
Yup, this is how I saw it.
Also a bit of this: ”I don’t really trust him to understand why I refused a army, now when we need it most.”
Then she tries to make it up by telling them about BF.
thurg00d420,
no – he said – Meera’s father
last night for myself the theater troupe skit watching Arya’s reaction seeing her father being depicted and beheaded was sort of a re-gift season 4 episode 2 Sansa also watched a skit this one it was her brother’s demise to me this was a powerful scene watching Sansa seeing this was heartbreaking , to me in last nights episode this scene felt lazy and it added nothing to the story
I think Sansa doesnt want Jon to know about Littlefinger but for what reason I’m not sure. She definitely has no conflict with him, I dont know why people are going on about this. The Brienne scene proved it as she’s willing to send her away because she trusts Jon. The coat scene really felt like a way to make it up to him and ease her guilt a little bit, nothing manipulative or ‘Margaery-esque’ about it to me.
And i find the complaining about Summer’s death a bit silly but I guess its emotional? I mean, we all cried and said “How could they kill Robb and Cat?” but later on accepted it and realised it was coming. Blaming the show and CGI budget though seems very silly and immature. First of all, even if they did do it to conserve money,you can’t blame the writers for it. GoT spends an insane amount of money on this show. But that’s out of the point as this is definitely not a budget issue, the wolves were meant to die. It just feels like its all happening too fast because there’s like 18 episodes left now till the end of the series. And Summer died heroically for Bran and also symbolised the end of summer and the beginning of winter.
Although on a side note, I did always believe that the direwolves symbolised the destinies of the Starks. Sansa becomes a Lady , Arya becomes badass warrior Nymeria, Robb becomes the grey wind. Rickon will unfortunately be a ‘Shaggydog’ story (insignificant), Jon is undead like a Ghost. But for Bran, I thought Summer meant that he was gonna signify the end of Winter. Turns out, Summer died to signify the coming of Winter.
Hi everyone, i dont post much but i am really curious about Meera.
At first i thought it was just a case of killing a WW with dragonglass but when i re-watched the scene, one of COTF used the same weapon but didnt manage to kill the WW. Is this relevant? up until now the only two people that have killed a WW are Jon Snow and Samwell Tarly (i think?). Is there a connection between the three- the only connection i could conjure up was the fact that Meeras father was also at the TOJ, does this play into the theory that twins where conceived that day and that Ned Stark took Jon and Howland Reed took Meera? She does have the same curly hair lol… But when you bring Sam into the picture, the only connection i could make is that they are all mortal and that the COTH are immortals. Perhaps i am reading too much into this… But if she is Jons twin and is in fact a Targaryan, then she is the third dragon riders which eliminates the theory of Tyrion Lannister as the third dragon rider (which ive never really believed anyway, so thats fine) but if this is the case then she would also be half stark, but i dont recall it ever being mentioned in the books or tv show that she has the ability to warg (which i have assumed every stark could do in some shape or another), also she has never been called a bastard of Howlend Reed.
Also, did anyone else find it strange that Euron Greyjoy won the Kingsmoot but the majority of the people followed Theon and his sister (forgot her name) out of the iron islands. surely she should have won if she had that many followers, or did it just appear that way and she just took all the ships. I have a feeling shes heading towards Danny to join forces with her before her uncle gets the chance to!
Loving this seasons, just keeps getting better. Im sad that Summer died though and HODOR! 🙁
Anyway i should get back to work- let me know your thoughts..
LadySam,
The child stabbed the WW in armour… They made sure to show us that…. Meera threw the spear onto the white walkers neck and got him
Don’t think it has anything to do with her being special. Jon killed a white walkers because had Valaryian steel and Sam killed a white walked because he had dragon glass and meeras spear was also made of dragon glass. The child just aimed at the armour of the WW
Meera is a very minor character and would be very stupid if she was the third dragon rider wtf HAHAHA
I love her and all but I just don’t see that
She’s bad ass and she’s tough that’s about it. No magic or secret parents
That’s my opinion
I typed quite a long post and then lost it without posting it properly so here’s a short one instead. I do miss Hodor – and I think young Sam Coleman will be a contender for the award for actors in 3 episodes or less this year if such award is given. I wouldn’t say he’s a shoo-in because well – we’ve got the likes of Richard E Grant and Ian McShane playing small(ish) parts this year but I definitely think SC will be in the running – as will also Brennock O’Connor but a lot of people hated Brennock’s character. Looking forward to curtain call for Kristian Nairn.
Do you think Bran going through the wall back to the north lands allow the white walkers to bypass the wall like they did in the cave?
It wasn’t a “big set-piece.” It was a gag that they had wanted to do in S4, then S5, then finally did in S6.
It’s not been confirmed, but I believe that was the “Melisandre-is-really-ancient” scene. I think they were initially going to do this in the Mel-in-bathtub scene with Selyse in S4 (the dialogue certainly hints that Selyse is seeing ancient Melisandre), but decided not to do that revelation yet. They tried to find a place for it in S5, but nothing really fit. They were finally able to do it in the first episode of S6.
From what I could see, the WWs armour protected them from the dragonglass, but Meera hit one in the neck, where the skin was exposed. And IIRC, Sam also stabbed one in the back in S3, who wasn’t wearing any armour at all. Maybe those guys decided to suit up after realising their Achilles heel had been re-discovered 😉
Dude, chill! He misremembered a scene and made a mistake. When it was pointed out to him, he went “oh, my bad, I remembered wrong, never mind that speculation then.”
You’re making this into a much bigger deal than it really is.
Besides, everybody speculates, and not everybody is right. (For example, while I had a strong suspicion that “Hodor” was really “Hold the Door” I was completely wrong about what “Hold the Door” meant — My speculation was that it had something to do with the “kidnapping” of Lyanna Stark, an order given to Wylis to “hold the door”, and would involve some sort of traumatic head injury given to him by Benjen. As you can see, I was completely off the mark. Was I an idiot for coming up with that speculation?)
Dee,
In theory, that is why one wears armor! Plus Meera has been hitting the irons hard while cooped up underground for over a year: she probably is ripped now. Wait: more “evidence” that Meera and Jon are twins! 😛
The casting call for “Young Stunner” (speculated to be Lyanna) said she’d be in two scenes, and one would have a great twist.
My guess is that “Young Stunner” will be in the same scenes with Robert Armayo (or as I call him, “WarriorNed”). One is probably her “kidnapping” and the other one is the ToJ2 revelation. I think, unfortunately, we’re probably not going to get ToJ2 until E10.
Josh L.,
In retrospect, we all were sort of foolish there. Book!Hodor is too young to have beeninvolved in those scenarios. We needed one that could apply to Hodor at either age.
And insofar as I can tell, most of the fans were convinced it was Lyanna’s horse.
The actor who played Winterfell’s maester, said on Thronecast that he lied when discussing Whitewalkers and giants with BRan.
WOW.. I never thought of this when I was rewatching the episode. You’re right, leaf (the cotf) knew that bran will not stay there forever and even made a point that meera will be greatly needed when that time comes.
What I disagree about was the cotf were manipulating bran just to recover their lands. I think leaf was trying to assure us when she said to bran : “we were at war”. and that right now what they wanted is for bran to help them end the problem they created. I made a post about the weirwood tree in the recap thread. And now I definitely believe that at this point bran will either a ) return to the winterfell were there is another weirwood tree ( which I notice somehow was always a highlight in the intro ) or b) go even further north to find where that frozen weirwood tree is located in the vision. Afterall, as I stated on my post in the recap thread, If the children created the first white walker in front of the weirwood tree, somehow he might be undone again in the weirwood tree.
Atish Vaze,
I doubt that Bran can warg into anyone he wants: hosts can resist being warged. And we now know that the one person he could warg wad under the influence os something very similar to warging all along. However, Bran’s options probably are a bit broader than typical.
Dee,
LOL we’ve pretty much said the same thing 🙂
Smalljon,
Oh, so that explains the small difference! In the book, Luewin holds that the Walkers never existed. I seem to recall that the Andall explanation was that the Others represented Wildlings magnified by fear, time and artistic license.
But the other thing to remember is that The Long Night is not in Andall fables. Thus, they treat Northern superstitions as just superstitions, but hallow their own superstitions with the word “beliefs.” I.e., they act like real people!
Marlana,
NOW THAT is something I want to see… stark wielding the stark sword.. though what makes arya cool was needle. But isn’t it cool? arya with widow’s wail.. just what she needs to be able to contribute to the end game : Valyrian steel wielded by a deadly swordswoman.
darkdadi,
Ah, but is it going to be about undoing the Walkers in the end? We now know that they are victims of a sort. Really, the ultimate “evil” in this story is humanity!
darkdadi,
I inferred that BR had already seen that this was how it ended. The fact that he took Bran to the time that led to Hodor’s creation corroborates tgat.
That is incorrect.
I think you missed the whole point of that final vision. Not only was it to reveal why hodor was “hodor” but it was also to teach bran the consequences of his power. So many times the 3ER had been trying to tell him to be patient in learning his power but he doesn’t listen. That his power was responsible for the demise of his friend.
Making the 8,
If this comparison makes sense, he will end up becoming the Neville Longbottom (Harry Potter) of the ASOIAF series. Sam has yet to make his mark on Westeros, but he will be the one to make the discoveries from the ancient texts.
OK, sure: they do not use people from very different races as siblings. But that is it. Let’s look it another way: they do not pay too much attention to what the original characters look like, either.
There is another way to look at this. Remember, Bran is basically caught in a temporal loop. He only gets to BR because of Hodor being Hodor. In other words, Bran’s past and present are caused by an event in his future. So, it is vital that before everything else ends, BR makes sure that what happened in the past will happen now. Otherwise: the Time Lords have to set things right. (And the Doctor would not like what he’s seeing!)
Wimsey,
Yeah Probably. I haven’t read the books so I don’t know how much a person can warg or if someone can resist warging. But I remember the first time Bran warg into Hodor, Jojen asked him to do so and it felt like he can warg into anyone.
Exactly the reason I love this show so much… you can never now what really happens in the end.
Apollo,
Haha we did 🙂
Wimsey,
Hahaha no!!!
Victoria of the Vale,
If BenJen does not come now, he never will.
Actually it may be true in the books yet. By now we know that the show is taking its main ideas from the books, but adapting them very differently. (for instance, Shireen will burn, but it won’t be Stannis who does it, nor for those reasons)
I don’t even recall if the CotF have doors in their cave in the books. My bet is that the main story, the “hold the door” that turned Wyllis to Hodor, is canon, but the door he will be holding is another one.
And about the Stark kids:
Davos: -“Jon doesn’t have the stark name”
Sansa: -“No, but I do”
Ouch, even Edd was uncomfortable with the comment
And worst yet:
Sansa: -“Jon is every bit as much Ned Stark’s son as Ramsay is Roose Bolton’s”
WDF??
Also during all the scene Jon is watching her with suspicious, and rightly so, she’s very clearly trying to take control, while pointedly stating that he is a bastard.
Ramdon thoughts:
– Sophie looks so beautiful with her fair skin and red hair, surrounded by the snow
– The CotF prob should had thrown their grenades at the NK instead to a bunch of zombies.
Winter is delayed:
I didn’t see any issue with what was said here- it was Davos who brought up the challenge of Jon’s birthright in obtaining support.
Sansa simply made the point (albeit naively, and not very well) that Northern houses are loyal above all else. And that if some houses are willing to fight for Ramsey (the bastard of Bolton) then the others, including (foolishly) the Karstarks, will surely fight for the bastard son and trueborn daughter of Ned Stark.
Jon etc. did bristle at the comment but I really don’t think it was a deliberate slight on her part, and she did try to make amends with the Tully news and her gift to Jon.
I agree she has her own agenda but I don’t think its a sinister one, she’s just more focussed on short term goals – revenge against Ramsay reclaiming WF than the practical aspects such as a lack of manpower.
Can I just say that I LOVE how Clarke and Glen absolutely 100% GET and perfectly portray the complicated relationship between Jorah and Daenerys (She loves him guys – Emilia confirms it!). Of course this is on the writers and directors too – they get it also and write the material accordingly. It’s my favorite relationship in the entire series (no, I don’t want them to fuck) and I found that scene Sunday absolutely devastating. I now assume that Jorah has been written off the show… but I am absolutely prepared to be surprised!!
All the Sir Friendzone shit is just annoying and I wish fans would stop it. This is a romance that happens not to involve fucking, and it is beautiful.
Winter is delayed,
I thought that Jon was looking at Sansa repeatedly during that scene because he was seeing a mature, assertive Sansa, he’s missed all those years of seeing her grow up, and her delegating during that scene maybe came as somewhat of a surprise to him. Like this isn’t the Sansa that I knew.
Honestly I am loving the interactions between Jon and Sansa, it’s not all plain sailing for them, they are reading each other. I do feel like Sansa is on a power trip, and I agree with a comment from above, LF mislead Sansa with that information about her Uncle and Riverrun, and she’ll get a wake-up call on that front. LF is a slimy shit, he will try and drive a wedge between Jon and Sansa. Nevertheless, Sansa will end LF, whether it’s in the season finale, or it’s next season, it’ll be beautiful poetic justice. Bookmark me.
Also would be lame if they kill Sansa this season, all her training, and endurance for what? A gratuitous death? No. I want her to have her revenge. D&D have adapted well so far, and I’ve gone along with all the deaths they’ve sprung so far, I trust that they wouldn’t screw this up.
Dutch Maester,
Jon’s story is and always has been my favorite part of this show and the books. KL has always been at or near the bottom, for me.
Tycho Nestoris,
Oh, there’s logistics limitations with the wolves, no doubt about it. But the medium restricts them too. It’s visual. Direwolves are epic on paper… but on screen, we can’t see into their minds, or see from their eyes in Warg state. Often they’re just left as pretty eye candy. I’ve seen people vocally complain that a direwolf wasn’t in an episode where they were in the episode.. the viewer just didn’t notice them in the scene!
Think about the Bear and the Maiden Fair… and how awkward that turned out. Every single direwolf scene was better than that IMNSHO. 🙂
Nadia,
You are the first person I’ve seen mention this Jon and Sansa stuff and I also felt strangely apprehensive about those scenes and the LF comment about a half brother. I’ve read the responses to your post and don’t feel any resolution really. They obviously filmed these things for a reason and it wasn’t to give Jon a cloak. I hope it’s not anything terrible. I just want a Stark united front to go and wreak havoc on everyone who’s slighted them in any way. Haha. But I’ve been paying attention and don’t think this has a happy ending. ?
With as fast as major plot points have been flying at us week-to-week this season, I’m going to be really disappointed if Cleganebowl comes and goes in a single episode. Sandor is an awesome character, and his redemption and potential revenge deserves to be artfully done.
I won’t know what to do with all the HYPE I’ve gotten . . .
I presume that the link that link that Sam will discover in Old Town has to do with:
1. The interactions between Dragons and the White Walkers, Ie Dragon Glass, Dragon Breath on WW etc
2. The Creation of the Wall and what keeps the WW out, (One assumes it has something to do with Fire Magic…. In an Ice Wall? Not certain)
3. Initiates the Alliance between John and Dany that makes certain Dany shows up in time to save everyone from the WW. (This is clearly the series ‘win’ scene so a long way in the future)
Agreed completely. I’m hoping that Sam and Gilly travel past it and he gives a little tour guide history of the Reach. It would be a nice setup as big things are about to go down for the Tyrells…
That and I really want to see Casterly Rock on screen, and showing Highgarden for the hell of it sets the right precedent.
Jjddss,
Yeah I mean Sansa just didn’t feel sincere to me giving him the cloak. When she’s sitting by the fire with him, that’s a sincere Sansa. Even reading the letter, you can tell she’s being truthful. But when Brienne calls her out on her lies she gets shifty eyes and then she’s putting on this bright smile and giving him a cloak and just read insincere to me.
The one thing I do think will resolve this is that ultimately the WW are coming, and clearly Sansa knows about them from that meeting. So I don’t think she’s out to get Jon when she knows and clearly believes what’s coming is bigger.
Minor bone to pick with that one. I have no idea why this misconception about Jon is so popular these days, but it’s so off the mark I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe some people need to re-watch season 3 to jog their memories concerning what Jon is capable of. This guy pretended to desert the Watch so that he could infiltrate the wildlings and then spent months playing Mance Rayder and Tormund Giantsbane and lying to the woman he loves so that he could gather intel while feeding them false information. He’s hardly incapable of scheming and deceit.
Jon may not be versed in Southern politics, but he absolutely has it in him to play his cards close to his chest (or even flat out lie) when he believes it necessary. That’s not to say that Jon doesn’t have integrity and implicit trust in his sister (although he may revise that position if and when her lie catches up with her), but lets not pretend he’s completely guileless here.
As for Ned, I might point out that the ToJ flashback fight and the secrets he guarded for many years after that are pretty good indicators that many people grossly underestimated his capacity for dishonesty as well.
I just realized that in German the Ep is called Das Tor. Translated that’d be The Gate instead of The Door. But then again “Halt das Tor!” is easily merged into Hodor as the a sound grows weaker with time and repetition sounding more and more like o.
Still can’t think what non germanic/saxon languages will make out of it
TheTouchofFrost,
I thought the inclusion of Summer’s death was terrific. Yes I’m sad the dire wolf died and the wolves have been dying way to frequently, but Summer symbolized soo much in this episode. Summer literally dies, and winter has come. Summer’s death also symbolizes Bran losing a part of himself, particularly when he realizes he is the reason behind Hodor’s tragic life.
Hodor’s secret revealed, and his death was very nicely done.
So Sansa is Littlefinger’s protege, huh? She and Jon are certainly not on the same side, and the man who has spent the last few years making grown-up decisions should not defer to the child who has never sacrificed for anyone else.
Sansa cannot climb back into her mother’s womb – where the womb is Winterfell – and no one should sacrifice their life so that she can eat kidney pie.
elybe,
You’re right about Jon’s capacity to lie. I certain I know why Jon lied to the Wildlings. I have few ideas of why Sansa lied to Jon about Littlefinger.
..all I can do is speculate.
and Grenn and Pyp 🙁 🙁
Well, technically Grenn and Pyp held the gate, not a door, but the outcome was the same: asked to do so by someone they loved, trusted, and wanted to keep safe. And they all held.
Nadia,
I think Sansa’s been lying to Jon from the moment she stepping into that courtyard. In fact, she lied to Theon when she told him that no one could touch them once they were with Jon. …Then it was, if he takes the black all his crimes are forgiven. That girl will say whatever she wants to get what she wants, and has been doing so from her time at King’s Landing.
The cloak with the Stark emblem is to push Jon’s emotional buttons. She knows the one thing he’s always wanted is to fully belong to a family. How cruel to dangle that in his face now to get him to risk his life for Winterfell. How could he do this after what he saw at Hardhome?! The answer is, that he thinks he’ll finally belong to something…because Sansa led him to believe that.
She’s been lying to him the whole time.
Er, yes, she suggested Theon take the black after he expressed continued guilt for his crimes. What motive do you ascribe for her wanting Theon to come along?
You do recall that Jon had already decided to leave the Wall before Sansa showed up, right? Sansa had nothing to do with that. Indeed, by getting him back into the game against the Boltons he’s evidently now interested in fighting the Walkers again.
The Hound, for one, knows about it. Regardless, it’s clearly going to come into play in the endgame for this whole dynamic.
No, there really doesn’t. Littlefinger’s motives are not complicated at all: self-advancement, and revenge on those who he views as having done him wrong. There’s never been anything to suggest there’s more to it than that.
I have never been emotionally moved by any of the killings in the series, but Hodor’s story kicked my ass! What an incredibly sad, heroic, and powerful moment. Tearing up just thinking about it.
Sean C.,
That would be another person in her team willing to give up their life for her; although, I have an impression that she doesn’t always have a coherent plan, and is imposing her will, incoherently.
Edd’s admonition had something to do with Jon’s decision to defend against the Walkers, that Sansa is responsible, is a circuitous route.
Yeah, it’s ridiculous to suggest that she has a legitimate emotional attachment to somebody who saved her life.
Er, no, my point is, Jon had already decided to abandon the Wall. Sansa just gave him something to do. She’s evidently, I guess, also onboard with fighting the White Walkers, though the show has jumped over that whole plot element so much it’s hard to say what she thinks about it.
Wimsey,
OK but you don’t address the point of Bran not knowing that Hodor was once a normal boy who talked normal. Being that Hodor was related to Old Nan, and was a close part of the Stark household, everyone would have known this. It’s a plot hole, there is no way to spin it.
Talvivaara,
PTSD… this was my first thought re Sansa. I’m not sure whether she is classic PTSD but… I think that her “change” and “power” everybody is so delighted now is more apparent than real (coming from anger). In discussion with Davos I saw “old” Sansa – naive and entitled and I’m very interested how will she react to obvious disappointment she is up to.
ghost of winterfell,
Are u so sure it looks to me as if almost any one can be.why?I think Jon told us there is nothing. Another problem in that world.there is no life without death. Like no summer without a winter. It most be fixed for the world to renew itself.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
There is no indication that Nan ever volunteered the information. Remember, this is NOT an egalitarian society: Nan is a servant, and servants are not expected to discuss their family problems with the masters. Unless Bran had asked directly, she would not have volunteered the information.
(Think of this as Downton Abbey, but with even greater barriers between the Lords & Ladies, and the kitchen staff.)
He also broke his most pragmatic vows to the Watch by letting the Wildlings into Westeros in order to uphold more important vows that everyone else has forgotten. Jon would like to be rigidly “honorable” like Ned (or like he believes Ned was), but he’s learned that this is not possible. And someone who understands that will start to accept plotting and scheming.
(Of course, and as Tyrion points out, if you accept plotting, then you accept scheming, as those are basically synonyms.)
THere is a LOT more to suggest that there is something else. LF’s tactics seem too random to fit that model. However, here is the thing about random: things are only random when you are looking at them with the wrong models. When we get the right model, it will all click into place.