UPDATED! Season 8 SPOILERS: Even More Characters at the Dragonpit Confirmed!

Spoilers: one of these characters is returning to the Dragonpit
Season eight spoilers: at least one of these characters is returning to the Dragonpit!

A few days ago we placed a main cast member in Seville and considered it big news. After all, the shoot in the nearby ruins of Itálica, which we know as the Dragonpit, had been remarkably quiet compared to last time, for the season seven finale, when so many cast members made themselves known in Seville. Therefore, our expectations this time were for a much more “private affair.” We were wrong. We were oh, so happily wrong!

Los Siete Reinos just reported on the arrival in Seville of two familiar faces … or rather, bodies. They are the body doubles for Peter Dinklage and Sophie Turner, whose presence there place Tyrion and Sansa at the Dragonpit in season eight, alongside Arya:

Please note body doubles are distinct from stunt doubles; they are not used for action scenes.
Please note body doubles are distinct from stunt doubles; they are not used for action scenes.

It’s not just body doubles, however: yesterday, Aponiente, a high-end restaurant in Cádiz, which is close to Seville, was visited by Peter Dinklage himself, along with showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. If no other director is sighted in Spain, it could mean the Dragonpit shoot is for the series finale, which will be directed by the showrunners. As you can see below, Dinklage happily posed for a photo with the chef, Ángel León:

There are also reports from yesterday of several cast members waiting at a London airport for a flight to Seville. Supposedly, the actors in question were Kit Harington, Sophie Turner, Isaac Hempstead Wright, Gwendoline Christie and John Bradley. Unfortunately, we can’t confirm these sightings, as they weren’t photographed, but if they are true we should expect the following characters—at the very least—to appear at the Dragonpit in season eight: Tyrion, Sansa, Jon, Arya, Bran, Brienne, and Sam.

And so, it appears we went from not even being sure any cast members would be in Itálica to knowing Maisie Williams would be, to now being pretty sure a large part of the main cast will be present at the Dragonpit in season eight. This shoot wouldn’t include as many characters as last time (though, of course, other cast members may be sighted yet), but it would be a first for several of them: Arya and Sansa haven’t been in King’s Landing for years (Sansa in particular has been reluctant to ever return), and they never went to the Dragonpit in the first place; and this will be a first for Sam as well.

This now looks more like a “big scene” akin to the one in “The Dragon and the Wolf.” Naturally, the question is whether it will take place during peace talks, as it did last time, or during battle. Whether there is fighting going on in or around the capital, there probably won’t be a battle inside the Dragonpit, partly because many of these characters aren’t really fighters; but, more importantly, because it’s unlikely a battle sequence would be allowed to be shot at a site as historic as the amphitheater of Itálica.

With these cast members and the advantages and limitations provided by this location, what do you think will happen at the Dragonpit in the eighth and final season?

UPDATE: María on Twitter shared the following photos, with the showrunners, Sophie Turner, Peter Dinklage, Maisie Williams, Isaac Hempstead Wright, Peter Dinklage and Liam Cunningham meeting the fans at the hotel’s entrance:


There are also reported sightings of Joe Dempsie, Gwendoline Christie, Conleth Hill, and Nikolaj Coster Waldau at the hotel. There are stranger sightings as well, by REDB04, including Tom Wlaschiha and Faye Marsay, who played Jaqen H’ghar and the Waif respectively. Confused? You’re not the only one. We’ll try to clear things up below.



(Photos by REDB04 / Dilina Anastasia)

Additionally, Watchers on the Wall reader Eonwe got ahold of the following photos from a friend in Seville, and shared them in the comments below (thank you, Eonwe!), showing Peter Dinklage, Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner together, as well as showrunner David Benioff and, shockingly, Vladimir Furdik—the Night King. Say what?

From left to right: Peter Dinklage, Maisie Williams, Sophie Turner, David Benioff
From left to right: Peter Dinklage, Maisie Williams, Sophie Turner, David Benioff
Vladimir Furdik, the Night King, in full view, with David Benioff in the background
Vladimir Furdik, the Night King, in full view, with David Benioff in the background

This appears to indicate that we’ll see the Night King in the Dragonpit. However, the fact that they aren’t making any effort to hide him—quite the opposite in fact—may point to this being a misdirection. Furdik and the reported sightings of Wlaschiha and Marsay tip us off that some of these cast members may not be involved in the shoot at all.

We don’t usually entertain these conspiracy theories at Watchers on the Wall, because they never pan out. Despite claims of fake scenes and the like, they’ve never done something like this before (the closest they got was in season six, when they pretended Shae would appear), but in this case I do believe it may be quite likely that some cast members have been brought in (as a paid vacation, essentially) to hide who will really be involved. Why try to fool us with tertiary characters like the Waif? Because their performers would be much easier and cheaper to bring in for a laugh than, say, Emilia Clarke, who is kind of a star now and quite busy promoting her new film at the moment.

Could we see the Faceless Men again, at the Dragonpit? And the Night King? And all these characters too? For sure. But the fact that they were publicly paraded before the fans in Seville should give even the most trusting amongst us some doubts. If we really want to know the truth, we should see which actors actually stay for the entire shoot.

570 Comments

  1. Someone saw yesterday Kit, Sophie and Gwen at the London Stansted Airport. Could they’d been flying to Seville?

  2. Edith:
    Someone saw yesterday Kit, Sophie and Gwen at the London Stansted Airport. Could they’d been flying to Seville?

    Many people saw them. Them and others, really. As it’s clearly stated in the article. Did you actually read it before writing this comment?

  3. Luka, I’m sorry but why did you answer negatively to my comment in the previous post about the possibility of this scene being a Jon-Sansa wedding? I don’t see anything that disproves it at all. In fact, most of the cast there are portraying characters who are really close to Jon and Sansa.
    And unless you heard it from George or David and Dan themselves, I don’t think you can actually confirm that it won’t happen.

  4. I can’t see it being a big gladiatorial fight in the dragon pit.
    I think some big finale, crowning of, or deciding, the ruler of Westeros and rewarding the heroes.
    The Red keep will be already have been destroyed as seen in Danny’s vision.

  5. RedWolf,

    I didn’t deny it because of any inside info. I doubted it it as someone who is following this story. Why do you jump to Jon marrying Sansa? Arya is there too. And Brienne. And Sam! All of these are almost as much of a jump in logic.

    Artemisia,

    A body double is not a stunt double. Body doubles aren’t used for action sequences or to play corpses, but mostly as stand-ins for shots in which you can’t see their faces (because the camera is far away or behind them.)

    MaxYronwood:
    OMG! NOW WE KNOW SANSA SURVIVES UNTIL THE DRAGON PIT MEETING!

    Contrary to most supposed “leaks”, yes. How about that.

  6. So we have some big names at the dragonpit. And all of them good guys. Hmm… why are they at the Dragonpit? Interesting…

  7. Sounds like a series finale scene to me, especially if Sansa, Sam, and Arya are there.

  8. Maybe the scene with these familiar characters takes place, when everything is over/won. The dragonpit is a symbol for the end of the Targaryen reign – and it could be a good starting point for a new reign.
    Or they are revealing the truth about John’s parents there… why shoud Bran and Sam be there otherwise?

  9. Aegon the Icedragon,

    Tomorrow is the premiere for Solo at LA. Emilia is expected there. She also has compromises at Cannes the 15 and London the 17. A very tight fit for her shooting at Sevilla.

  10. House Monty:
    Luka Nieto,

    What can we read into the nature of the scene from the presence of body doubles?

    Nothing, except that the scene will take long enough to film without the need of these particular characters that stand-ins will be needed so that the actors don’t have to just stand there for hours. So something will be going on that won’t require Sophie’s or Dinlage’s acting abilities (for some of the scene, at least) but will require their characters to be physically there.

    Daznak’s Pit is a good example of this. All the actors were there, of course, but while the gladiatorial fights were being shot the main cast members weren’t actually there witnessing the fights for hours. Those were body doubles. The actors were there for the close-ups shots, and the dialogue and action scenes.

    TL/DR: A stand-in body double is NOT the same thing as a stunt double!

  11. Hmm, so this serves as confirmation that Winterfell gets wrecked, right? I mean there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, yet they are all down south. It also strongly suggests that the NK is not defeated there and that he will reach King’s Landing..

  12. Aegon the Icedragon:

    Where’s Dany???

    Too pregnant to attend. Or maybe already dead from childbirth.

    Luka Nieto:

    Why do you jump to Jon marrying Sansa? Arya is there too. And Brienne. And Sam! All of these are almost as much of a jump in logic.

    Luka, it’s his/her precious fanfic theory, so it must be true, even though it makes no sense and there’s no evidence for it. I can’t wait for the Twitter meltdowns next year when S8 airs.

  13. Jay Targ,

    I would be inclined to agree unless the NK is wrecked along with WF.

    I’ve long believed that the AOTD would attack WF while the NK would go after KL mounted on Viserion, using either the Golden Company or the citizens of KL as fodder for a new AOTD. So, in other words, I agree, for now 🙂

  14. If Emilia doesn’t show up for this shoot, Dany’s absence from this scene would raise some questions. However, most of us think it’s pretty much a given that she’ll be pregnant next season, so that could very well explain her absence depending on what kind of scene this is.

  15. Ëonwë,

    I wouldn’t be surprised by that, there’s only 6 episodes to cover a lot of story.

    If

    Isaac is there, it’s possible Bran might be jumping forward/backward in time visions or something? Doing the Dr. Strange thing, looking through the weirnet for all possible/best outcomes to endgame?
  16. Ëonwë,

    Many months could pass naturally throughout the season, as in almost every season. If I recall correctly, season four was the shortest: in what was and remains rare for Game of Thrones, very explicit spans of days were set, mostly due to Joffrey’s wedding and Tyrion’s trial; it all happened in a matter of a few months! However, most other seasons span many months, or even a year.

  17. Enharmony1625,

    Yeah it would definitely raise questions. However, I think Dany returning to King’s Landing is basically given based on narrative, so her potential absence from the Pit may not mean anything in regards to that. She may be on Drogon during the time the other characters are at the Dragonpit.

  18. Enharmony1625,

    Dany not being there for a serious (perhaps fatal) reason is not impossible, but we should remember previous instances when we all freaked out.

    Everyone was sure Grey Worm HAD to be dead last season when Jacob Anderson didn’t show up in Seville for the Dragonpit scenes. Why else wouldn’t the Unsullied commander be there to guard his queen? In the end, the reason was that he was acting as commander of the Unsullied outside the walls. There was a perfectly innocent explanation, as there may be here. For example, if Dany is flying around on her dragon, that would be shot in a special Belfast set.

  19. Flora Linden:
    Ëonwë ,

    Je ne serais pas surpris par cela, il y a seulement 6 épisodes pour couvrir beaucoup d’histoire.

    Si

    The most strange is for isaac. How did it happen to dragon pit? With dragon?

  20. Jay Targ,

    It doesn’t necessarily mean that the Night King is not defeated in The North.

    Winterfell could be destroyed or rendered uninhabitable in winter, forcing the Northerners to seek sanctuary in the South despite the Night King having ultimately been defeated.

    And obviously Jon, Sansa and co would not be safe in the south as long as Cersei is queen, so taking King’s Landing may be necessary regardless.

    We’re not sure yet whether Dany is still alive at this point. But whether they take King’s Landing in order to press hers or Jon’s claim to the Iron Throne, they would merely be doing what Jaime warned Cersei would happen anyway – “When the fighting in The North is over, someone wins. You understand that, don’t you?… If the living win, and we’ve betrayed them, they march south and kill us all”

  21. A fighting shoot is unlikely. I can´t see the authorities letting that kind of thing in such historical place (Italica is the birthplace of two romans emperors).

    Luka Nieto,

    Well I got the feeling that like the books, time slowed down in the series. A couple of years between seasons 1-3 (Dany and Talissa´s pregancies) and one year after season 4 onwards.

  22. Dany has been so absent from King’s landing overall shooting that it really feels like she’s dying in the batle against the NK. It’s hard do predict, since they have been shooting the Dragons arrival in King’s landing(pehapes Dany dies and Jon can ride Drogon?). If so, I’m sad seeing Jon surviving it all again..I wish both of them would die, or both stying alive(sorry for bad english)

  23. Oh that’s neat that Bran will be there, if it’s in more than in ‘vision’ form, which I’d assume it is. For some reason I never thought of him going to KL.

  24. Ëonwë,

    That’s not right, but it’s not your fault that you think so. In the books much less time has passed in general, but in the show it’s closer to one year per season. Not quite, especially not in season four, but it’s closer to that than to your estimation. You think what you do for good reason: often the storytelling doesn’t bear it out in terms of organic character interactions (waiting weeks to have certain conversations, for example), but still, accounting for explicit references made to time passing, much more than a year has passed since season four. Perhaps not four years for four seasons, but two or three for sure.

  25. Ramsay's 20th Good Man,

    Yeah, though in fairness, I only said that it would strongly suggest he’s not defeated there, nothing definitive. I’m in the camp that thinks the NK has to make it south in order to view them as a massive threat.

    And yeah, the other scenario you put forth is also a possibility. I’d expect Dany to be alive when they go to King’s Landing because I think it’s simply a must from a storytelling perspective, but I could obviously be wrong. We’ll see. She can die right after reaching the city! Haha!

  26. Luka Nieto,

    In which chapters do they talk about the passing time? For a rewatching.

    How long took Stannis failed campaign in the north? How long was Sansa married to Ramsay? How many time took Jon and Sansa to seek the northern Houses help? Tyrion and Varys journey to Meereen? Theon and Asha? Dany´s journey to Vaes Dothrak and back to Meereen? From Meereen to Westeros?

    Visuals doesn´t help. I´m looking at you Varys and at you wight hunt.

  27. Ëonwë: Visuals doesn´t help. I´m looking at you Varys and at you wight hunt.

    Actually, I’d say that Varys showing up back at Meereen to take the Targaryen-Dornish-Tyrell fleet back to Westeros does not hinder but HELPS a lot in showing that some time has passed. Showing, instead of telling, as it should be.

    All of these journeys to faraway places that you cite are part of the reason that we know a lot of time has passed. Explicit references are more infrequent, but they are there. These are used by many unofficial timelines online.

  28. Luka Nieto,

    Yes, there could be a perfectly innocent explanation for her absence. It makes me wonder too, to what extent would Jon go to to protect her and the baby if he knows she’s pregnant? It would pose a bit of a conundrum seeing as how he insisted that he needed her and her dragons last season to fight the White Walkers.

  29. Luka Nieto,

    But scenes like Jon´s coronation and the meeting at the begining of season 8 doesn´t help. Becase it looks like it only took a couple of days. Same with Arya finale and beginning in seasons 7-8. And I know that this does happen in the books. But not the extremes of the show. We spent an entire season watching Sam arriving to Oldtown. But then we are presented to Theon and Asha journey to Meereen in a couple of chapters and the Vary´s shots. Show don´t tell it´s okay, as long as the show part makes sense.

    I always thought that Varys should have stayed at Westeros and welcome Dany at Dragonstone.

  30. Enharmony1625: Yes, there could be a perfectly innocent explanation for her absence.

    Yup, she could be mounted on Drogon which would require interior shots, she could be elsewhere in KL like the Red Keep or something, or she could be holed up about to give birth. It could be anything.

    Though that won’t stop some people from assuming the worst and running with it, like usual.

  31. Ten Bears,

    I’m ecstatic that the entire season’s story hasn’t leaked, like last season’s. I’m much more fond of piecing together the season from casting and filming news, and good ol’ speculation. I believe it results in a much healthier and more collaborative community. It’s more fun for pretty much everyone.

  32. Wow, so this would SEEM to ALMOST guarantee that the characters spotted in Seville will survive until the end of the show! Happy some of my favourite characters are in there but you can never be sure with GoT!

    Excitement.

  33. Luka Nieto,

    It is fun trying to guess what´s happening because this actor was spoted there and that set looks like it is that place. But I must confess. I enjoyed last season despite having read the leaks. Every chapter I had a notebook with the leaks and I crossed them as they happened while thinking “Another chapter and the dude was 100% spot on”.

  34. Luka Nieto,

    Absolutely! Main characters gathered at the dragonpit? Who knows when and why. I prefer it that way. The possibilities are limitless. We can all speculate away!

  35. Ëonwë,

    Oh, I enjoyed the show just as much. I don’t really care about spoilers. But the pre-season conversation was less fun, because there was much less speculation; and those who didn’t want to read the leaks weren’t allowed to have fun and speculate as usual, as those who had read the leaks were always there to outright tell them or at least imply they were wrong (or right.)

  36. Luka Nieto,

    Totally agree. I actually didn’t start following filming news closely until now, so I didn’t have S7 spoiled for me due to the leaks. Except I did see YouTube video thumbnails of Dany wearing her winter gear reaching down for Jon, so I did get spoiled on some minor things. So glad that doesn’t appear to be the case with this season!

  37. Luka Nieto,

    Oh, and the best part (for me, at least) is that most of my favorite scenes have been filmed indoors, in the Belfast studios, or in some remote outdoor locations we don’t know about until the episodes air.

    Better yet, even when HBO releases promo photos, we have no idea what’s going on in a particular scene. I remember last year when HBO released that photo of Arya sitting at a table looking at something – and there must have been a hundred suggested interpretations. Then when the episode finally aired, that frame turned out to be two seconds before Arya said: “Hello Hot Pie”… and his reporting of the news that the Boltons were dead and Jon was now KitN.

  38. I need someone to spot Emilia Clarke in or headed to Seville. I know either she or Jon will probably die because this is a GRRM story afterall; however, my money was on Jon due to the incredibly large hints of Dany getting pregnant with Aejon Stargaryen’s baby.

    Point being, every possibility about this final season has me incredibly nervous!

  39. Theory I’ve had for a while – Dany and Cersei and Jaime are dead. Jon abdicates. Tyrion is crowned with Sansa as queen (she’s the younger, more beautiful queeen Cersei feared all along).

  40. vortex,

    There are unconfirmed reports of Clarke flying from NYC to Madrid (there are no direct flies from the US to Seville, I imagine). We’ll see if they pan out. Honestly, she’s expected to be at the Solo premiere, so I doubt it.

  41. vortex,

    The last time we saw emilia was the nyc airport. She was leaving nyc. Now our little khalessi can be either in los angeles(for solo) or seville or london or belfast. I hope seville🙏🙏

  42. What I do find interesting is besides no Dany, there is none of Dany’s main people there either. No Greyworm, no Jorah, no Missandei, no Varys. But Tyrion is. And he’s with all the Starks. I don’t have any guesses at all what any of this means but it’s certainly intriguing.

    Though I suppose the possibility exists of later filming for those I mentioned and they’re just not part of whatever this sequence will be.

  43. orange,

    I’ve seen a few references to Iain Glen flying to Seville as well, but again with no photos to back it up. We’ll have to wait and see…

  44. Luka Nieto,

    Interesting.
    I doubt it though, there’s too many reports of her having to give interviews during Solo week this week.

    I’d find it far likelier for her to miss the Cannes premiere next week, than the LA one this week. But it’s something we’ll have to keep an eye on.

  45. It seems that nobody did pay attention in the link that I give..Emilia was photographed flying from New York to Seville non stop(information by reliable source)..She will be most possibly tomorrow there for filming.Danny is still alive after the Winterfell falls ..and is going with the others in KL.We are going to see her tomorrow in Seville.She will be there 100%..Emilia has said that Danny is going to involved in the last scene of GOT..So I expect her to be there at the end..alive.and well or even resurrected by a red.priest(after dies).

  46. litsa,

    Your link only provided the paparazzi photos of her at JFK. It doesn’t show us where she’s headed. Fortunately, we’ll know in the coming days as there is no way Emilia won’t be seen if she is in Los Angeles as I believe.

    Do you have a link to the interview where Emilia said that?

  47. I don’t think anyone has mentioned Cersei in the comments yet and Lena doesn’t seem to be around either. My initial thought, until proven otherwise, is that she has to be gone in one way or another. Sansa is so afraid of Cersei and the things she is capable of doing that I can’t see her returning to King’s Landing in any circumstance while Cersei is still in power. If she were to be fleeing from the AotD if they’re still on the move I think she’d rather find another place like the Eyrie, Dragonstone or continue on past KL than come face to face with Cersei again.

  48. Luka Nieto:
    Ëonwë,

    Oh, I enjoyed the show just as much. I don’t really care about spoilers. But the pre-season conversation was less fun, because there was much less speculation; and those who didn’t want to read the leaks weren’t allowed to have fun and speculate as usual, as those who had read the leaks were always there to outright tell them or at least imply they were wrong (or right.)

    It also hurt some of the podcasts I listen to. I know BaldMove in particular had people sending them spoilers pretending it was just fan speculation. When you know there are legit scene for scene spoilers out there, it completely kills the fan theorizing and speculation, which is half of the fun of this series.
    And if you are a podcaster or any professional in the business who wants to engage in fan speculation and theorizing with your listeners/readers, I can imagine it truly sucks. I know some had to get their already spoiled significant others or friends to screen fan emails for them.

    That being said, I have been more confident than ever going into this season that they weren’t going to allow a script to or some other spoiler material to fall into the wrong hands and have taken measures to prevent some of the leaks that have occurred in the past. **knock on wood**
    Although I know there’s little you can do about some loose-lipped assistant on the set sharing information anonymously.

  49. Whether or not Cersei or Dany are still alive at this point, I don’t think this is meant to be the same type of Peace treaty negotiation or bargaining similar to the last Dragon Pit meeting. We’ve already seen that and I’m not sure they would give us the same scene again. I’m thinking that this is more of a rendezvous point where they are all coordinating a last stand in KL.

    I’m saying that as a person who was really hoping that they would end the supernatural threat (NK, army of the dead, etc) in the first 3-4 episodes, and the last 2-3 episodes were all dealing with the human threats and conflicts that still existed.

  50. I wonder who would get to push Bran’s ass from the docks all the way to the Dragonpit. 😛

  51. Stoneheart:
    Since Emilia and Lena aren’t there, I feel like this is major endgame spoilers.

    Why? We still don’t know everyone that will show up yet and, allegedly, Emilia is on a flight that COULD be headed there.

    Besides, as Luka said earlier, everyone and their mother thought Greyworm was dead last season because he wasn’t in the dragonpit scene, yet he’s still alive…

  52. Emilia has a jam-packed schedule, Solo premiere and she also has the Graham Norton recording on the 17th. I doubt she’ll be involved, at least for some time.

  53. Clob:
    I wonder who would get to push Bran’s ass from the docks all the way to the Dragonpit.

    Dolorous Edd’s new job 🙂

  54. Emilia does appear to be the busiest of any of them right now so if she will be part of this filming one would think she’d get there last minute and take off again immediately afterward. None of that holiday stuff by the pool for her at this time.

  55. litsa: She will.be there and you will be see.that in this site.She had cancelled her traving in L.A (for the premier of hHan Solo)and is his heading to Madrid..Tomorrow will be there..You will see it .otherwise dont call me Litsa ..As for the interview ..googleit.”Emilia Clarke last interview”.Danny cannot die before the show ends ..She either will die on the last scene of the last episode or will not die at all.

    English is not my.mother tongue .Im Albanian.

  56. litsa,

    There is no way she canceled her traveling to LA. This is something she would know far ahead of time, GOT would not be calling her last minute to tell her she has to film. We’ve know the dates for the Solo press junket and the filming in Italica for quite a while.

  57. BeardedOnion:
    Emilia has a jam-packed schedule, Solo premiere and she also has the Graham Norton recording on the 17th. I doubt she’ll be involved, at least for some time.

    Yeah, this. Don’t really know about the last weeks in May. But we do have pretty strong confirmation that she’ll be filming in June.

  58. Also I’ll just like to say HAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA! To all those who were hoping/saying Sansa was going to die in WF.

    (In good faith of course. 🙂 )

  59. Jay Targ:
    litsa,

    There is no way she canceled her traveling to LA. This is something she would know far ahead of time, GOT would not be calling her last minute to tell her she has to film. We’ve know the dates for the Solo press junket and the filming in Italica for quite a while.

    we dont know that for sure..Maybe she lies about the premier tomorrow and she gives us.a surprise and be tomorrow in Seville The same with Sophie Turner..she said that she will end up.filming in March..but she is there.The same could happen with Emilia and she to be in Seville tomorrow.We dont.know well if she will be in the premier pf Han Solo tomorrow..She could to lie for that.

  60. Clob:
    That person was supposedly from Greece so… that doesn’t really change the thought.

    I dont speak Greek.Im from Albania and I live there.I dont know what are you talking about?You trying to trolling..but you reply in someone that can troll you too.

  61. Arya:
    And Alfie Allen? Is he in Spain? Theon?

    As of today, it appears Alfie is still in London. Of course, it doesn’t mean he cant show up in Seville at some point, considering the production will be there for a while.

  62. BeardedOnion,
    i know right fuck those guys its every season with that.they want sansa to die so bad but she”s not. long live the queen in the north

  63. Patches:
    Theory I’ve had for a while – Dany and Cersei and Jaime are dead.Jon abdicates.Tyrion is crowned with Sansa as queen (she’s the younger, more beautiful queeen Cersei feared all along).

    As traditionally calculated, the Lannisters have zero claim to the Iron Throne. If Tyrion is to end up ruling anything, beyond being Lord of Casterly Rock/Warden of the West, it would have to be as something resembling a Prime Minister, beta-testing a sort of proto-Parliament (which I expect would suit him, and he’d be very good at).

    But this lineup kindles my hope that Tyrion and Sansa may be reconciled and decide to have a “recommitment” ceremony in the final episode. She knows now, all too well, that what makes a bad husband isn’t his stature.

    Such a scenario would explain all the Starks being present in what remains of Kings Landing. The body doubles might even imply a “bedding” scene, in which we are reassured that Sansa makes the first move. Seeing her with a big satisfied grin on her face at brunch with her family and her groom the next day would be even better!

    Okay, wishful-thinking fanfic. But not ruled out by data currently in hand.

  64. Well. Sophie and Isaac had been spoted at the hotel Alfonso XIII. Peter was seen dining along D&D. Neither David Nutter or Miguel Sapochnik have been seen so far. D&D are the directors of the series last episode.

  65. I’m very pleased to see that the available evidence suggests that Arya makes it up to the end. I was uneasy with what they did with her character last season, worrying that they’d merged her story’s arc with Lady Stoneheart’s and set her up to be disposed of in Season 8. Please note: I’m not saying that I want that to happen! It’s just an uneasy feeling I’ve had, and I’m glad that it seems that Arya makes it to the end of the story.

    I do think it’s inevitable that the show will pit audience favorites against each other in Season 8, forcing viewers to take sides in ways that will cause discomfort. We got a taste of that when Bronn was gunning for Dany & Drogon in the Loot Train episode. I’ve been thinking that the showrunners might use Arya in that way in Season 8. Imagine how much angst would be caused in the audience if Arya and Dany became enemies for some reason. Again, I’m not saying I want that to happen – but it does seem like exactly the kind of emotional manipulation that D&D engage in.

  66. Gwidhiel,

    They already did that in season 7. The loot attack was basically a massacre like Hardhome were men outnumbered had to fight against an unnatural foe whithout hope. That´s why Ed Sheeran´s scene made the cut. The writers wanted to show us the Lannisters soldiers as poor sods fighting others wars and who only want to go back home.

  67. BeardedOnion: I regret NOTHING!

    For real though, I’m just happy she’s alive as I was worried.

    Me too. I’ve never understood the Sansa hate. I don’t necessarily subscribe to the theories that make her a queen, but they’ve shown that she has evolved into a fine person who’s intelligent and can see the bigger picture.

  68. Ëonwë:
    Gwidhiel,

    They already did that in season 7. The loot attack was basically a massacre like Hardhome were men outnumbered had to fight against an unnatural foe whithout hope. That´s why Ed Sheeran´s scene made the cut. The writers wanted to show us the Lannisters soldiers as poor sods fighting others wars and who only want to go back home.

    Yes, exactly. They did it a bit in Season 7, and I strongly suspect they will do it even more in Season 8.

  69. Maisie Williams was spoted at Alfonso XIII. There´s talk of sightings of Gwendolyne Christie, Liam Cunnigham and Iain Glenn in the city too.

  70. BeardedOnion:
    Also I’ll just like to say HAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA! To all those who were hoping/saying Sansa was going to die in WF.

    (In good faith of course. )

    Lmfao watching the meltdowns on freefolk when they found out it wouldn’t happen was glorious.

  71. Flayed Potatoes:
    BeardedOnion,

    Lmfao watching the meltdowns on freefolk when they found out it wouldn’t happen was glorious.

    They are still convinced Jon is going to behead Tyrion for some crime. Pure delusion.

  72. I want confirmation of Iain Glenn in Sevilla. It would be hilarious to see ser friendzoned alive at the end.

  73. BeardedOnion,

    The crime of starting a joke without finishing it, of course.

    Jon’s going to find out the punchline to that jackass and honeycomb joke one way or the other I tells ya!

  74. Mr Derp,

    Robin Arryn will be at the dragonpit screaming “Seven years! I waited seven years to know the end of the joke! Tell us or you will fly!”

  75. Ëonwë:
    I want confirmation of Iain Glenn in Sevilla. It would be hilarious to see ser friendzoned alive at the end.

    That would be kind of interesting if Jorah makes it through to the end, but Dany doesn’t. Jorah would totally lie and be like, ah yes, I remember Khaleesi. Btw, I totally slept with her. She wanted me so bad the entire time, but I had to friendzone her in the end and let her down easy.

  76. RedWolf,

    It’s definitely a possibility that should be considered with the rest. Not sure why people dismiss it all the time. Or get angry about it. Though, I would prefer a Jon and Sansa wedding in the Godswood by the heart tree. However, if Winterfell is attacked…

    It could also be a trial, an election scene (like the King in the North scene…), a coronation. Other more out there possibilities, a sacrifice (of a dragon) to end the battle with the NK, OR my personal favorite theory is a “Trail by Seven”!!!!! Cersei v’s Sansa (or maybe House Stark in general…) choose seven champions each and they fight it out. Wouldn’t be a huge battle scene and could be shot partially there and partially on green screen.
    Again, considering all the crazy tinfoil possibilities, a Jon and Sansa wedding is one of the more reasonable theories.

  77. My sister boyfriend is going to the Alfonso XIII and see if he can spot the actors.

  78. BeardedOnion: They are still convinced Jon is going to behead Tyrion for some crime. Pure delusion.

    Lmfao what did Tyrion do that has them so convinced? That theory just won’t die. XD

  79. Flayed Potatoes,

    Lol well he gave Jon and Dany that “look”. But so much was read into the look Sansa did in 6×10 and in the end it meant nothing. Same with Jaime’s look he gave Cersei in 6×10, nothing came of it

  80. Gwidhiel: Moi aussi. Je n’ai jamais compris la haine de Sansa. Je ne souscris pas nécessairement aux théories qui font d’elle une reine, mais ils ont montré qu’elle est devenue une personne intelligente et intelligente qui peut voir la situation dans son ensemble.

    Gwidhiel,

    Gwidhiel,

    Personally I don’t like sansa but I dont hate her. But i think many people hate her because she was really annoying during first season. For me i don’t like her during s1 and s2. s3 and s4 was better i like her relation with tyrion. But in s6 for me she’is very irritating. I never understand why she hides in jon the support of the knights of the vale. I think D&D want watch she’s a good strategist but it was really stupid. The Battle of the Bastards shall have more easily been won if she had warned jon (it’s probably for that the D&D are make that, more spectacle XD). No furthermore is never explained why she has make that. Wanted she that jon dies, we’ll never know. But i don’t want she dies. She suffered a lot and she deserves the happy end. For me i see her and tyrion rules the 7 kingdom because dany is a conquerant and she wants break the wheel she probably give the rule in tyrion for etablished a democratie and i hope dany don’t die. Jon is my favorite character but i think he dies and also bran.

  81. Mr Derp: That would be kind of interesting if Jorah makes it through to the end, but Dany doesn’t.Jorah would totally lie and be like, ah yes, I remember Khaleesi.Btw, I totally slept with her.She wanted me so bad the entire time, but I had to friendzone her in the end and let her down easy.

    That’s more of a Littlefinger move, no?

    I do love the irony of Jorah outliving Dany, though – despite greyscale. I suppose Jon would confirm his pardon and give him back sovereignty of Bear Island, presuming that “taking the black” is no longer a thing. Would playing kindly uncle to grouchy Little Bear provide him a satisfying old age? Or do we need to see him married off to someone?

  82. Ëonwë,

    Hopefully he sees something. L7R was able to get pictures of them outside the hotel, so the actors don’t appear to have any restrictions in that sense.

  83. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
    Mr Derp,

    At which point Daario appears, saying, “Is that so, Jorah the Andal?”

    I wonder if we’ll ever learn why the Essosi call him that. My impression is that the Bear Islanders’ gene pool mainly traces back to the First Men – am I wrong about that?

  84. Jay Targ,

    Well I don´t know how things are right now. But normally you can enter Alfonso XIII and eat or have a coffee at the restaurant.

  85. Clob,

    Lol, and then the only post that appears is the one stating that none of your posts are going through. Gotta love it.

    I had posted a reply an hour ago or so to someone, but it didn’t make the cut either for some reason.

    Maybe you’re being trolled by the Albanians afterall.

  86. Firannion,

    The Andals originate from Andalos, in Essos, so the Essosi at this point refer to all Westerosi as Andals. They’re wrong, but it makes a kind of sense, really.

  87. This night there is a match between Sevilla FC and Real Madrid CF. Last year the actors went to the Sevilla FC-FC Barcelona match. Maybe we´ll see some of then there.

  88. Ëonwë:
    Tyrion betraying Jon, Dany, Sansa and Jaime for Cersei is so logical dudes.

    I hope you’re saying that facetiously. If not, kindly explain!

    No one (still living) in his world has treated Tyrion worse than Cersei. He’s not going to throw in his lot with her just because she is (allegedly) pregnant. For all he knows, she could pop out another Joffrey. This just ain’t gonna happen.

  89. Mr Derp:
    BeardedOnion,

    The crime of starting a joke without finishing it, of course.

    Jon’s going to find out the punchline to that jackass and honeycomb joke one way or the other I tells ya!

    _________
    Only the Night King knows the punchline.

  90. Ëonwë:
    This night there is a match between Sevilla FC and Real Madrid CF. Last year the actors went to the Sevilla FC-FC Barcelona match. Maybe we´ll see some of then there.

    Hopefully, they can witness Barca’s first loss this season too.

  91. Ten Bears,

    Ah, I see now. So this is all a game to see which noble family of the 7 kingdoms can discover the punchline first and the NK has returned to stop it from being discovered?

    I can see why Tyrion will betray everyone now. It all makes sense!

  92. Hassan 1239416:

    Personally I don’t like sansa but I dont hate her. But i think many people hate her because she was really annoying during first season. For me i don’t like her during s1 and s2. s3 and s4 was better i like her relation with tyrion. But in s6 for me she’is very irritating. I never understand why she hides in jon the support of the knights of the vale. I think D&D want watch she’s a good strategist but it was really stupid. The Battle of the Bastards shall have more easily been won if she had warned jon (it’s probably for that the D&D are make that, more spectacle XD). No furthermore is never explained why she has make that. Wanted she that jon dies, we’ll never know. But i don’t want she dies. She suffered a lot and she deserves the happy end. For me i see her and tyrion rules the 7 kingdom because dany is a conquerant and she wants break the wheel she probably give the rule in tyrion for etablished a democratie and i hope dany don’t die. Jon is my favorite character but i think he dies and also bran.

    People who cannot update their understanding of an evolving, growing character, particularly one who was a child when the story began, seem rather childish themselves. Totally reasonable to not be a Sansa fan – as you’ve explained you are not. But the death wishes some folks have held say more about them than the character Sansa has become.

  93. Ëonwë,

    Wait. It makes sense for Tyrion to side with Cersei because Cersei has already tried to kill Tyrion multiple times? Is that what you just said or did I read it wrong?

  94. Ëonwë,

    Lol, ok. That’s kind of what I thought, but sarcasm can be difficult to interpret sometimes. I got ya 🙂

  95. Flayed Potatoes

    BeardedOnion: To all those who were hoping/saying Sansa was going to die in WF…

    Who are these unseen virtual masses? 🙂
    It’s fairly clear that GRRM covets dear Sansa and will keep her around until the bittersweet climax, after Sandor gets to hear his ‘little bird’ sing again. Then near the end, in the forest, Sansa will come across Nymeria and, unlike Arya’s brief reunion, Nym will have her revenge for Lady and tear her to pieces.

  96. Ten Bears:
    Mr Derp,

    Et tu, Mr. D? ☹️ Then fall, Ten Bears. 🔪
    🚱🚱🚱

    It sounds like you’re writing in Tamarian from Star Trek.
    “Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra! Temba, his arms wide!” 😛

  97. Mr Derp:
    Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Lol, fuck Clegane Bowl.The Jilted Lovers Bowl is on for season 8.I always knew that Jorah and Daario would eventually have a showdown.

    On my list of characters I’d be perfectly content never to hear from again, Daario is near the top. He always seemed like wasted screentime to me.

  98. Hodors Bastard: ,
    Who are these unseen virtual masses?
    It’s fairly clear that GRRM covets dear Sansa and will keep her around until the bittersweet climax, after Sandor gets to hear his ‘little bird’ sing again. Then near the end, in the forest, Sansa will come across Nymeria and, unlike Arya’s brief reunion, Nym will have her revenge for Lady and tear her to pieces.

    Lady Ladyheart’s revenge!

  99. Firannion,

    I would disagree with you, but, I can’t. Daario was indeed a waste of space. On a personal note, I would add Robin of the Vale to the list, though, I wouldn’t mind seeing him one last time just so he could be the moon door’s last victim.

  100. Guigui,

    Maybe Alliser Thorne was on to something when he told Jon that he “will be fighting their battles forever.” While Rhaegar and Lyanna may have loved each other, whatever we know of Rhaegar gives you the impression that Jon was a designer baby. He was conceived with the idea of fulfilling a prophecy and his conception brought about war, violence and death. Jon is my favorite character but I don’t think he was ever meant to have a happy life. He is the sacrificial “hero” of the story and sacrifice doesn’t always mean a corporal death but perhaps the renunciation of personal happiness a la Frodo.

  101. Danny,

    I like it. One of the 4 noble truths is that desire is the cause of all suffering, so maybe that’s best for Jon to renounce any quest for personal happiness. Forgoing the pursuit of happiness could, ironically, bring about a certain kind of happiness.

  102. Pictures floating around now are getting weird… like they’re gathering for an all-cast party or something.

  103. Clob:
    Pictures floating around now are getting weird… like they’re gathering for an all-cast party or something.

    Could this be the hitherto-undisclosed venue for Kit and Rose’s super-secret wedding? He did just have his stag party, reportedly.

  104. Eonwe,

    Awesome, thanks!

    Clob,

    Yea, it does kind of look like that. Maybe they’re being more open now that the end of filming is approaching.

    Firannion,

    That actually seems plausible.

  105. Clob:
    That person was supposedly from Greece so… that doesn’t really change the thought. 😉

    IKR? after missing the contributor called A for a while, i see Luka answering to A. just, i didn’t find a comment A wrote. me blind or comment deleted?

    then, lots of comments with lots of dots at surprising places appear. and when i write “lots of dots”, i mean Stephen Colbert should read the comments in front of a camera.

    someone got booted from reddit, coulditbe?

  106. Hassan 1239416:
    Eonwe,

    that means the NK is always alive in episode 6!!!!

    It doesn’t prove anything other than we don’t know what’s going on. There is a picture of Tom Wlashiha and Faye Marsay there as well. Keep an eye open for Sean Bean and Richard Madden… Bring everyone to keep us from knowing who is filming and who isn’t.

    Firannion: Could this be the hitherto-undisclosed venue for Kit and Rose’s super-secret wedding? He did just have his stag party, reportedly.

    That’s something to consider and wonder about.

  107. Hodors Bastard:
    Flayed Potatoes

    Who are these unseen virtual masses? 🙂
    It’s fairly clear that GRRM covets dear Sansa and will keep her around until the bittersweet climax, after Sandor gets to hear his ‘little bird’ sing again. Then near the end, in the forest, Sansa will come across Nymeria and, unlike Arya’s brief reunion, Nym will have her revenge for Lady and tear her to pieces.

    Lol. LOL. I don’t like Sansa but don’t want her to die, but that made me laugh. 😆

  108. Firannion: Could this be the hitherto-undisclosed venue for Kit and Rose’s super-secret wedding? He did just have his stag party, reportedly.

    Can you imagine if they’re not even filming more Dragonpit and it’s actually the location of their wedding disguised as GoT filming!? That would be hilarious!

  109. Clob,

    I don’t think they can waste their time and money to bring actors who are not needed. Why don’t bring Lena and Emilia then?

  110. Supposedly the actress who plays the waif was spotted there too? The hell?

    Now I don’t believe that they are trolling us all but…the waif?

  111. Lol Why bring the waif back, specifically to film in the Dragonpit. Come on! That would only matter to Arya’s character not everyone else that’s present.

  112. mau,
    More and more are showing up so don’t count anyone out yet. The waif is dead so Faye being there doesn’t make sense. They’re also just out and about in the open and allowing pictures which they’ve been trying to avoid during the entire filming period. There has to be something else going on to bring people in and planned in conjunction with filming of important endgame stuff to throw everyone off….

  113. mau,

    Yeah, but aren’t we done with that part of the story? You mean someone wearing the waif’s face is going to come back at some point. To do what and why?

  114. It’s gotta be for Kit and Rose’s wedding, doesn’t it? I mean why the hell are all these actors all back together and out in the open?

  115. Mr Derp,
    Why would those actors even care for that? They never worked with Kit.

    And why would Spain allow this place to used for wedding? Lol

  116. Mr Derp:
    Firannion,

    I would disagree with you, but, I can’t.Daario was indeed a waste of space.On a personal note, I would add Robin of the Vale to the list, though, I wouldn’t mind seeing him one last time just so he could be the moon door’s last victim.

    I second that motion.

  117. Mr Derp:
    It’s gotta be for Kit and Rose’s wedding, doesn’t it?I mean why the hell are all these actors all back together and out in the open?

    Time to revive #hairwatch, only it’s ginger (a/k/a kissed by fire) we’re looking for this time.

  118. mau:
    Clob,
    The Waif is dead, but her face is not. It can be used again

    That’s true but nobody would wear it in our story other than Jaqen and there doesn’t seem like a good reason to do that.

  119. mau: And why would Spain allow this place to used for wedding? Lol

    Why wouldn’t they? That hotel does wedding banquets. It’s advertised on their website.

  120. mau:
    Clob,

    Maybe there is a good reason. You haven’t seen S8 yet.

    Well then, maybe they are having the wedding in the area. You wouldn’t get an invite. 😉

  121. orange:

    Yeah, but aren’t we done with that part of the story? You mean someone wearing the waif’s face is going to come back at some point. To do what and why?

    Maybe

    to kill Arya, as punishment for destroying House Frey, which wasn’t an official Faceless Men kill/assignment or sanctioned by the Red God.
  122. If D&D wanted to confuse the fans for some reason and if they really care about that there are many other actors that they could bring to do that. Cersei, LF and so on. Who cares about the Waif lol?

    And if this is just Kit’s wedding we would see Rose here lol. Or actors who actually worked with Kit. Like actors who played Grenn, Pyp, Ramsay, Thorne, Tormund, LC Mormont or someone else. Not fucking Waif. Hahah.

  123. mau:
    Clob,
    The Waif is dead, but her face is not. It can be used again

    Sure but why at the Dragonpit? Why with so many other characters present? That would be something concerning only Arya’s arc

  124. mau: there are many other actors that they could bring to do that.

    Again, give it time. They’ve all been coming in from different places and at different times. Maybe there will be a dozen more at this time tomorrow…

  125. I’m really surprised how willing people are to invent many conspiracy theories, before even considering the possibility that the FM do play some role in the endgame. They act like the actors from the Avengers appeared there and not the actors from big storyline that everyone thought was over. But maybe it’s not over.

    I know it goes against everyone’s ideas about S8, but it doesn’t matter.

  126. mau:
    Clob,
    And if not? You refuse any possibility that the FM will appear in S8?

    I never said that and I don’t give a shit if they are. All I said is that (to me) it doesn’t make sense for Jaqen to use the waif’s face. I think that because I would assume if he/FM show back up it will have something to do with Arya. Why use a face Arya recognizes instead of a face she also recognizes. Why use TWO actors for something they could just do with ONE?

  127. Mr Derp,

    Not really.

    Arya was punished for killing Meryn Trant and ignoring her assigment. She was punished for not killing Lady Crane, an official FM assignment. Something massive like the Frey extermination – also not official FM business – won’t be overlooked by the organization, in my opinion.

    But I suck at speculation, so who knows what will happen.

  128. Hmm. No Mountain, no Hound, no Missandei, no GreyWorm, no Qyburn, no Cersei, no Dany. Hmm…

  129. Flora Linden,

    Yes, me too. Speculation is not my best attribute.

    If there was retribution coming Arya’s way by the FM then why let her leave the House of Black & White in the first place though?

  130. I hope over the week all the actors will be spotted in Seville, that way HBO can confuse everyone that’s paying attention to production news. After all it wouldn’t be smart for the production to play their hand and show ahead of time who lives till last episode.

  131. To clarify on the show’s timeline more specifically:
    Season 1 covers roughly a year in Daenerys’ timeline, judging by the book and Daenerys’ pregnancy.
    How much time passes for everyone else is a bit harder to nail down, because some traveling wonkiness occurs even in the early seasons (Littlefinger, Robb, and Tywin specifically). In general, Sansa is the best character to judge timelines on, because she intersects with the most storylines while saying her age most often. In “Winter is Coming” (1×01) she says she is 13, and in “Second Sons” (3×08) she tells Tyrion she is 14. So between the Pilot and the end of season 3, roughly a year to a year and a half has passed for Westeros (Daenerys in Essos can’t line up logistically, meaning her plot must start sooner). In “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” (5×06), Sansa says she is 16. After this, the markers showing time passing are less concrete. Walda is pregnant before Sansa and Ramsay marry, and gives birth in “Home” (6×02); so Sansa and Ramsay were probably married for roughly 5 months. Season 6 is when the timeline starts to really go off the rails. From interviews, Sansa and Jon are organizing troops for months. While Cersei says in “Blood of my Blood” (6×06) that her trial is in a few days , Jaime is able to travel from King’s Landing to Riverrun and back in time to see her blow up the Sept. Arya’s timeline is extremely vague in season 6, but all of her scenes through “No One” (6×08) must happen very early in everyone else’s timeline for her to arrive back in Riverrun while Jaime is there. Bran’s story is also far removed from anyone else’s. Fitting Daenerys in at this point is a bit of a head scratcher. Varys doesn’t negotiate with Olenna until after Cersei has destroyed the Sept which means Olenna had time to travel to Sunspear (admittedly not a very long trip) and then Varys had to travel back to Meereen, the Dornish and Reach ships were fitted with Targaryen sails, and then everyone sailed with Daenerys. Since the Sept exploding occurs at roughly the same time as the Battle of the Bastards, Daenerys sailing has to occur at least weeks and more realistically months after everyone else’s season 6 stories conclude.
    Season 7 plays extremely fast and loose with time; from Jaime’s around the continent trip only taking 21 days, to Euron literally sailing around the entire continent 3 times. The surest amount of time passing is Sansa’s reference to Jon being at Dragonstone for “weeks”. In conclusion, roughly 5 years have passed through 7 seasons, give or take*

    *Keep in mind that this analysis of the timeline ignored blatant falsehoods or mistakes from the writers. The most obvious issue ignored here is Tommen’s age, which is stated as 8 in 1×05, but in seasons 5 and 6 he is old enough to consummate a marriage and rule without a regency. By Sansa’s age, he should have been 11 on his Wedding Night, but the actors and writers have given conflicting answers placing him between 13 and 16 years old. This is one example of many.

  132. Were the people Jaqen killed while helping Arya “official FM business”? While I won’t rule out the FM having some kind of piece in S8, I personally just don’t think it will be very much. I certainly don’t believe that they’ll ‘take out’ Arya. I’m not going to jump all over this with Tom and Faye being sighted yet. After all, Sibel showed up at a filming location once after she died and everyone started throwing up ideas.

  133. Mr Derp,

    If the FM really are back, my idea is that there are there to fight against the WW. Maybe there is some ideological reason for that.

  134. Guys, don’t forget Shae was spotted in Spain during S6 filming, right on the set. This probably means they are just visiting.

  135. This has never really been developed in the show, but it’s widely thought amongst the book fandom that the FM and the Iron Bank being headquartered so close to each other is not coincidental. The Faceless probably have a long-term contract as loan sharks. Maybe Jaqen would need to return to Westeros to collect on a debt and stop in while he’s in the neighborhood to check on how Arya’s doing, as a former protégé?

  136. Since Peter and Sophie doubles are in Sevilla at least Tyrion and Sansa are in the Dragon Pit.

  137. Flora Linden:
    Mr Derp,

    Not really.

    But I suck at speculation, so who knows what will happen.

    Good points – but the show rushed through Arya’s exit from Braavos and the FM in a manner that suggested, to me at least, that she wasn’t going to suffer any consequences for her treachery (from the FM perspective). S6 is when Arya’s storyline went off the rails; it felt like we could see the not-so-invisible hands picking her up to move her out of Braavos and set her down in Westeros so that she could start serving another purpose in the bigger plot. I feel like they’ve been very unconcerned with consistency with Arya (which is why I’ve feared for her). So it would be kind of weird to have them pick up the FM plot that they abandoned a couple of seasons ago.

    But anything’s possible.

  138. I updated the article with all the new cast members. I’ve never been fond of paranoid conspiracy theories, to be honest, but something smells iffy here, for sure. It may mean something, or it may not, but I had to at least point it out. I don’t think we can take any appearance for granted.

  139. I’d love to see Tom…er…Jaqen again, so hopefully he’ll show up on screen.

    Vladimir does do stunts, as well. So you never know.

  140. End of series party or HBO is trolling us? Come on – no selfies rule all year and now they’re outside all taking photos and selfies !!!

  141. Lmao this publicity stunt. Well done HBO! Fans are showing their asses all over the subreddits and freaking out XD

    They should bring Robin Arryn next.

  142. Jay Targ:
    Lol why put #gameofthrones as a caption while at the Seville v Real game

    Were they told to make it as obvious as possible?

    Right?

  143. Jay Targ,

    Lol, honestly, my attention immediately went to the lower right pick with Liam taking a photo with that beautiful woman.

  144. Ëonwë,

    Obviously they’re filming something with most of these cast members. Especially the ones with the body doubles there. But maybe they brought in one or two who aren’t filming.

  145. Clob: Can you imagine if they’re not even filming more Dragonpit and it’s actually the location of their wedding disguised as GoT filming!?That would be hilarious!

    A GoT cosplay wedding party? Not a bad idea.

  146. House Monty,

    Prob just for filming the far distance scene-building shots as body doubles are cheaper than the real thing, basically, when the latter are not needed. Like them walking to the Pit, from behind, for example.

  147. Pigeon,

    Yup and he does a fair bit of fight choreography and so on so he’s on a lot of shoots – most of the fight at the Tower Of Joy was him as the stunt double of Sir Arthur Dane, for example.

  148. Let’s see which actors are this weekend in the local derby between Real Betis Balompié-Sevilla FC.

  149. They are for the match seville – real madrid. some pictures on insta sophie maisie liam isaac…

  150. Mr Derp:
    Flora Linden,

    If there was retribution coming Arya’s way by the FM then why let her leave the House of Black & White in the first place though?

    Exactly. Arya reclaimed her identity and told Jaqen 2.0 she was going home. He gave her an unspoken “bon voyage”, and let her go on her way, with no strings attached.

  151. Flora Linden,

    The Many Faced God got his pound of flesh (or whatever a face weighs!) for Lady Crane though as Mercy did kill someone. The Waif also killed Lady Crane, so either way, the God got its kill – so I doubt the FM care tbh.

    On same-ish subject of death paying for life etc – are the 7 that Mel burns on the beach at Dragonstone the deaths that ultimately put the Red God into credit and thus pay for Beric’s resurrections and does Shireen pay for Jon’s resurrection…? Or maybe Mance does (though he’s not killed by the flames). If “only death can pay for life” (etc), I think it works as a pool credit system – if someone is sacrificed it adds one life to the pool and any red priest in general locale can use it, if they know how.

  152. Holy heck. I refreshed this tab after several hours at work and things got wild.

  153. mau:
    Mr Derp,

    If the FM really are back, my idea is that there are there to fight against the WW. Maybe there is some ideological reason for that.

    Well, the WW are bad for the FM brand. The FM command exorbitant prices because they can give “the gift” to anyone. Customers pay good money to the FM because they want someone dead – and to stay dead.

    For instance, a ship captain’s widow wanted that dishonest insurance broker dead. (I assume some other FM got the job done after Arya failed to do so.) That widow would be outraged if a relative reported seeing a reanimated thin man:

    “I saw the thin man drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic’s. His hair was perfect.”

    RIP Warren Zevon

  154. Nikolaj is also there with Gwen. So Jaime may still indeed be the one to despatch of Cersei.

    https://twitter.com/cursemeorkissme/status/994303965755002880?s=12

    Damn, almost the entire main cast are there. I’m honestly surprised so many have survived to the very end. And how will there be enough time to give each character their fitting final scenes?

    I really don’t get why they need Joe Dempsie there at all (puhleaze no Arya/Gendry wedding or Gendry being legitimised to rule house Baratheon nonsense) .

  155. Ten Bears: Well, the WW are bad for the FM brand. The FM command exorbitant prices because they can give “the gift” to anyone. Customers pay good money to the FM because they want someone dead – and to stay dead.

    For instance, a ship captain’s widow wanted that dishonest insurance broker dead. (I assume some other FM got the job done after Arya failed to do so.)That widow would be outraged if a relative reported seeing a reanimated thin man:

    “I saw the thin man drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic’s. His hair was perfect.”

    RIP Warren Zevon

    Very tangential, but this is one of the things about the AotD and wights generally that has me puzzled: they don’t eat (or drink pina coladas 😉 ) so what is fueling their motion? How can they march for hundreds of miles?

    I know, the answer is: magic. But it’s unsatisfying. I know it’s a petty concern.
    (I’m also wanting to know how the robots in Westworld are powered)

  156. While the idea of a fake-out seems “possible,” it’s really not done because of schedules. To get this many people together for a fake-out seems highly unlikely so the only thing that makes sense is that they all are there to shoot.

  157. Apollo,

    “I really don’t get why they need Joe Dempsie there at all (puhleaze no Arya/Gendry wedding or Gendry being legitimised to rule house Baratheon nonsense).”
    ————
    Gendry the blacksmith is there to toss Melisandre into the flames of his forge. That’s why last season – more than once – he went on a tirade about how the BwoB sold him to a witch to be murdered. And so Gendry’s parting words to her can be: “The Lord of Light told me to roast you alive. And this is for my cousin Shireen too, you b*tch.”

  158. GeekFurious,

    I don’t think anyone’s saying all of them are there to fake us out, but that a few of them could have been brought in as well as those who are actually going to shoot.

  159. mau,

    It’s quite possible that Arya will ask the FM to help them to deal with the NK. As a servants of the God of Death, they should be able to give the gift to the un-dying and I was speculating about their potential involvement in the NK demise since S6. So, very glad to hear the news.

  160. After the theories Sibel’s set visit during season six filming spawned, I’ve long thought flying actors who aren’t actually involved in scenes out to location shoots to be a relatively cheap mis-direction. Simply flying even half a dozen or so actors out for a paid vacation for a fortnight doesn’t cut into precious filming time and in terms of production costs is nothing to shooting elaborate alternative endings.

    And, with the attention those involved with the show got in Spain last year, it would be an intelligent gamble to take.

  161. Alba Stark,

    Given the success and longevity of the show, I wouldn’t be surprised if the producers invited some of the departed cast members to attend the last days of filming or the final “wrap” party.

    I’m going to be on the lookout for eagle-eyed fans who spot Charlotte Hope in Sevilla.

    #JusticeforMyranda

  162. Ten Bears:

    I’m hoping that when season eight does air, that they invite as many former cast members as possible to the premiere – particularly those from the early seasons. But, yeah, a large party to celebrate the end of filming probably sounds good to everyone too!

  163. Everyone supposes that the characters corresponding to all the cast members present in Seville survive till the end, because of the presence of D & D, too. And are surprised that so many make it to the finale. + waif + Gendry + etc
    But what about a “LOST” ending : the WW and NK win and everybody is dead, turned to wights. Imagine the very final scene, with loads of primary and secondary characters walking stiffly, blue-eyed, in the AotD… Hence evrybody’s presence !
    Several actors said that it would be spectacular, unexpected, or other tantalising words… Wouldn’t this be grand ?? Well, I would hate such an ending !! But the cast also said that many fans won’t like the ending anyway. Everybody can’t be satisfied.
    Yep : everybody gone icy and blue… Ice wins over fire. THE ultimate surprise and breath-taker… What about this one ? lol

  164. GeekFurious: To get this many people together for a fake-out seems highly unlikely so the only thing that makes sense is that they all are there to shoot.

    Ten Bears: the final “wrap” party.

    Yeah, we’ll have to wait to hear if any information at all sneaks out. If over the next couple of days even more expected and unexpected people show up I’d start leaning even more towards a scheduled cast event that’s being kept under wraps. It may have worked best to schedule one when many of the cast are still on the job rather than trying to do it when they’re finished. Keeping it quiet to cause confusion would just be a bonus. If it is that sort of thing then it would be a big fake-out, but it would also be bringing in unnecessary cast members for a reason.

  165. So…the Series Finale is Tyrion and Sansa’s wedding (for real this time)?

    LOL ( I’m only half-kidding you know)

    The War of the Roses officially ended with a Lancaster-York marriage, and George is already on record saying that one of the inspirations for House Stark was the House of York and Lancaster for House Lannister, so hey, I think it’s possible.

  166. Luka Nieto:
    Ten Bears,

    I’m ecstatic that the entire season’s story hasn’t leaked, like last season’s. I’m much more fond of piecing together the season from casting and filming news, and good ol’ speculation. I believe it results in a much healthier and more collaborative community. It’s more fun for pretty much everyone.

    I agree. I cringed when I knew the spoilers for episode 7.6 last season. Had the spoilers for that episode not leak beforehand it would have been much more better received I believe, even with its flaws.

  167. I think somewhere between the wild conspiracy theories, and accepting that ALL of these cast members are back to film some series finale footage, lies the truth.

    I think it’s pretty safe to assume that any actor with a stand-in/stunt double currently in Spain will definitely be filming whatever they’re filming in the Dragon Pit. I just don’t see HBO flying out specific cast and crew for sh*ts and giggles.

    But it is curious that actors like Lino Facioli are said to have been spotted in Seville today. I can’t for the life of me figure out what Robin Arryn would be doing in that particular venue.

    I also don’t subscribe to the notion that them being open with the fans today is some kind of stunt either. They were similarly engaging with the fans last year in Spain, even going as far as buying some of them pizza iirc. So the cast and the Spanish fans seem to have a fairly simpatico relationship lol.

    And just for the sake of conversation, I wonder what we would’ve made of the Dragon Pit summit set spoilers last year if we hadn’t known that there’d be one and were spoiled for the details of the entire season.

    Seeing all of those main actors congregate in one place would’ve launched a plethora of wild claims and I imagine a lot of conclusions would’ve been jumped to with regards to who lives and who dies and people insisting that fake scenes were being filmed.

    So I think when it comes to S8 we all have to accept we’re flying kinda blind here. Making educated guesses as we go along and I can’t wait to see what this finished product looks like!

  168. Firannion: As traditionally calculated, the Lannisters have zero claim to the Iron Throne. If Tyrion is to end up ruling anything, beyond being Lord of Casterly Rock/Warden of the West, it would have to be as something resembling a Prime Minister, beta-testing a sort of proto-Parliament (which I expect would suit him, and he’d be very good at).

    But this lineup kindles my hope that Tyrion and Sansa may be reconciled and decide to have a “recommitment” ceremony in the final episode. She knows now, all too well, that what makes a bad husband isn’t his stature.

    Such a scenario would explain all the Starks being present in what remains of Kings Landing. The body doubles might even imply a “bedding” scene, in which we are reassured that Sansa makes the first move.Seeing her with a big satisfied grin on her face at brunch with her family and her groom the next day would be even better!

    Okay, wishful-thinking fanfic. But not ruled out by data currently in hand.

    LOL

    Honestly, I like this line of thinking. Tyrion with all the Starks in a post-war scene certainly meets this scenario…

  169. Ëonwë:
    Well. Sophie and Isaac had been spoted at the hotel Alfonso XIII. Peter was seen dining along D&D. Neither David Nutter or Miguel Sapochnik have been seen so far. D&D are the directors of the series last episode.

    Oh I think all the signs, so far, point to D&D as being the directors of this Dragonpit sequence.

  170. And Nikolaj is there too now! It’s a somewhat random group of actors there. One theory is that D&D and/or HBO are trolling the fans and YouTubers, especially those who exploit or discuss the so-called leaks ad infinitum. It is suspicious that after months of heightened security, everyone would be posing for photos and waving to cameras. Also, I recall two separate but possibly relevant rumours in the last year: 1) Kit and Rose’s wedding would be during S8 shooting, and 2) that a wrap party would be in Spain. (By the bye, I’ve yet to see a photo with Kit Harrington. Hmmm.) It would not be surprising if one or the other occurred at a time several cast members would be gathered in one place for filming. In any case, with the very unified and friendly ensemble about to permanently split and go their separate ways to new career projects, it does make sense for there to be some sort of celebration. And northern Europeans do love to converge on sunny Spain. The next few days will be very interesting.

  171. Very exciting to see them all congregate in such huge numbers! This is an even larger amount of main and supporting actors than last year. How fun it must be for them all to be on location together. They seem a really tight-knit cast.

    I’m on the “this will be the final scene of the show” bandwagon and these actors make it to the end for some big ceremony (a wedding, corronation, vote – not sure which). I can’t remember who posted the news in the comments section that extras from previous seasons had been contacted to film rather than casting notices, but if that’s true, then that also points to a ceremony of some variety.

    And while they have so many gathered, possibly they did call in some actors who won’t appear at the end of the show to have a huge cast/crew party (rather than flying out everyone at some later date – may as well kill two birds with one stone). If it serves to throw off the scent of the sleuths who might figure out plot/character happenings from actors’ presences then all the better. Although the absence of main cast members (like Emilia, Lena, Alfie etc does make a party seem less likely as there is no way they would not be there for it).

    I am a bit worried by Emelia’s absence. If this is a final scene, then I would really hope she was there for it. If Jon survives, I would like her to survive too. They have mirrored one another’s journeys; it would be strange for one to make it and not the other.

    I’m really looking forward to more pictures emerging over the next few days/weeks. It was a really exciting time last off-season when there were loads of pictures emerging.

  172. Firannion,

    ….”But this lineup kindles my hope that Tyrion and Sansa may be reconciled and decide to have a “recommitment” ceremony in the final episode. She knows now, all too well, that what makes a bad husband isn’t his stature.

    Such a scenario would explain all the Starks being present in what remains of Kings Landing. The body doubles might even imply a “bedding” scene, in which we are reassured that Sansa makes the first move. Seeing her with a big satisfied grin on her face at brunch with her family and her groom the next day would be even better.”
    ______________

    Count me out. I want to see the reconciliations that have been set up for seven seasons: The Stark sisters and Sandor Clegane.

    I am looking forward to a scene or scenes when Sandor saunters into WF and Arya not only realizes Sandor isn’t dead and is no longer a loner, but is now a loyal soldier on the side of Team Targ. Same with Sansa: While all of the other so-called “knights” brutalized her, he was the only one whose actions demonstrated chivalrous qualities, despite his gruff facade.

    Won’t that be a wonderful scene? Sansa and Arya watching from the battlements as the allied forces stream through the gates of WF, led by a familiar face they thought they’d never see again?

    #You’reAlrightLittleBird
    #Sigh

  173. Che,

    I am a bit worried by Emelia’s absence. If this is a final scene, then I would really hope she was there for it. If Jon survives, I would like her to survive too. They have mirrored one another’s journeys; it would be strange for one to make it and not the other.

    She’s been doing press for the Han Solo film. Or maybe Dany’s just off having a baby.

  174. If this is to be a final scene I would expect Gilly to be there as well. I wonder if Hannah Murray will show.

    Maybe Gilly is elsewhere helping Dany through a pregnancy? I assume we’ll find out more about all this in the coming days.

  175. Ëonwë,

    Nice photo! Two quick observations:

    1. Maisie Williams = fashion icon.
    2. What’s with Gendry and the buzz cut?

  176. Ten Bears:
    Ëonwë,

    Nice photo! Two quick observations:

    1. Maisie Williams = fashion icon.
    2. What’s with Gendry and the buzz cut?

    Haha, I was just going to post and tag you saying that it looks like Gendry is still rocking that buzz cut from S7. That’s disappointing..

  177. I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but it’s interesting that almost no one from Dany’s side is there. At least, not yet.

  178. Ëonwë:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DcyQrLHW0AA6rI7.jpg

    There you go! LOL Liam and Isaac wearing Sevilla FC shirts.

    Ok Maisie is just so pretty…and WHO is the beautiful man on the bottom left??? I don’t care if he appears to have never left the 80’s, dang.

    Brienne choke-holding Dan made my day, and Liam and Conleith are 2 people I would kill to hang out with for an afternoon.

  179. Firannion,

    I have always been fond of the thought that Tyrion and Sansa could get back together on THEIR terms. I think they could bring out the best in each other. Sansa now realizes how Tyrion truly respected her and tried his best to be kind and really talk with her when the rest of his family was horrible. Sansa could curb Tyrion’s baser impulses and motivate him to continue his ‘for the people’ instincts. I mean, maybe they could just be friends. But a friend in this world is a valuable thing to have, and they go back a long way now.

  180. Ten Bears:
    Stark Raven’ Rad,

    Damn it! Where’s Rory McCann???? (Probably holed up in his hotel room playing the banjo and scarfing room service fried chicken.)

    I’ve got him. I’ll release him soon, promise!!!

    Holy crap – when/if he shows up, my top 3 best looking GoT men will be in one place at the same time (Rory, Iain, Tom). I’m not sure one city can handle that.

  181. Stark Raven’ Rad:
    And Nikolaj is there too now!It’s a somewhat random group of actors there. One theory is that D&D and/or HBO are trolling the fans and YouTubers, especially those who exploit or discuss the so-called leaks ad infinitum.It is suspicious that after months of heightened security, everyone would be posing for photos and waving to cameras.Also, I recall two separate but possibly relevant rumours in the last year: 1)Kit and Rose’s wedding would be during S8 shooting, and 2) that a wrap party would be in Spain.(By the bye, I’ve yet to see a photo with Kit Harrington.Hmmm.) It would not be surprising if one or the other occurred at a time several cast members would be gathered in one place for filming. In any case, with the very unified and friendly ensemble about to permanently split and go their separate ways to new career projects, it does make sense for there to be some sort of celebration.And northern Europeans do love to converge on sunny Spain.The next few days will be very interesting.

    I can’t see Kit and Rose having their somewhat historically bougie families out for a destination GoT wedding away from their ancestral abodes, but then again why not? 😜

  182. Pigeon,

    That man is Jesús Navas, one of Sevilla FC players. He was also a member of the Spanish national team that won 2010 World Cup and 2012 Eurocup.

  183. Eonwe:
    Pigeon,

    That man is Jesús Navas, one of Sevilla FC players. He was also a member of the Spanish national team that won 2010 World Cup and 2012 Eurocup.

    Thank you!!!

  184. anthony jordan:
    BeardedOnion,
    i know right fuck those guys its every season with that.they want sansa to die so bad but she”s not. long live the queen in the north

    she won’t die. Dialog clues suggest they’ll accept Jon as king, so she’d be wardeness if she stays in WF

  185. What would be really funny is for this not to be part of the show itself, but everyone is there for Kit and Leslie’s wedding. They just haven’t shown up yet.

  186. <a href="#

    mau: Coro

    comment-1125148″>mau,

    that was my initial hope — not spec, just hope. Night King throw us off. A dragon pit coronation is perfect. RAISE THE DRAGONS OUT STONE.

  187. Jay Targ:
    Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Yeah, though in fairness, I only said that it would strongly suggest he’s not defeated there, nothing definitive.I’m in the camp that thinks the NK has to make it south in order to view them as a massive threat.

    And yeah, the other scenario you put forth is also a possibility.I’d expect Dany to be alive when they go to King’s Landing because I think it’s simply a must from a storytelling perspective, but I could obviously be wrong.We’ll see.She can die right after reaching the city! Haha!

    Absolutely he makes it south. Is that in question? I didn’t realize that. “Winter is Coming” is boilerplate of the show. “How many live in the city,” Jon asks. “About a million,” answers Tyrion. Everything will ride on Jon wanting to keep NK from attacking KL. Whatever he is pushed to do, greatest choice he’s ever made, will be in hope to stop it.

    The North will fall, just as the Long Night. They made it all the way past KL last time, don’t think so this time, but it will be close. Very close.

    I love the idea, just idea, not a theory, just a fun idea, that some wights get in. But that switch is still there, one more blow to go of wildfire. I assume it has to play a part. It’s a grenade. And Cersei wants to light the wildfire. That final switch, take ’em all down at once, but while killing people still there tho. So Jaime gets to her as she screams “Burn them all” — killing her. And if Jon can kill the NK, all the wights will die, even if some broach the city. Be the climax of climaxes. Ha, but something cool.

  188. Ëonwë,

    It’s not crazy for this to be filming out of schedule. If the other directors have not been seen. And this be a grand finale scene. And inviting some actors to be there that will have already died. I.e. Night King, to troll.

  189. ash:
    What would be really funny is for this not to be part of the show itself, but everyone is there for Kit and Leslie’s wedding.They just haven’t shown up yet.

    Yeah or if they decided to do promotional stuff in the Dragonpit, sort of like the photo of Dany, Cersei and Margaery together in Almeria Lol

    https://twitter.com/JuegoDeTronosTM/status/656524930780155904/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwatchersonthewall.com%2Fspanish-updates-photo-shoot-and-some-surprising-almeria-sightings%2F

    But on a serious note, where is Kit?! How odd is it that the actor that gets spotted the most has not been seen yet? Did he decide to stay in the hotel all day

  190. Ten Bears:
    Stark Raven’ Rad,

    Damn it! Where’s Rory McCann???? (Probably holed up in his hotel room playing the banjo and scarfing room service fried chicken.)

    Great question. Maybe he’s off fighting Cleganebowl with his brother. That would most likely be an indoor scene and thus shot in Belfast. Or he’s having a wee kip before, as you said, playing his banjo and with a side of chicken. I prefer Gendry’s S1-3 hair, but as long as he does right by A Girl (who BTW looks perfect) it’s acceptable. The man with the red tie? Perhaps an official with Sevilla FC.

  191. Well, now. This report made me very happy indeed! 🙂

    I agree with those who are speculating that this scene is likely from the series finale, primarily because of Sophie Turner’s presence. While I certainly don’t think that it’s out of the question that Sansa could head south earlier (especially if Winterfell is destroyed), she did say in Season 7 that she would not set foot in King’s Landing again while Cersei Lannister was Queen. As of now, I’m inclined to take her at her word.

  192. AE,

    “The North will fall, just as the Long Night. They made it all the way past KL last time, don’t think so this time, but it will be close. Very close.”
    ________________
    What “last time”?

  193. Beside a large group of cast members together even picture of Faye Marsay Los Siete Reinos . Odd , I mean , if more cast like that so up it may mean there is big end of production party happening? I expected that in Belfast. If Tom and Marsay are there could mean other Essos characters show up too , there needs to be some kind of finish to the story of Essos’s involvement. Lino Facioli (Robin Arryn) too!

  194. John Bradley is in the 2nd updated pic on the far right in a dark jacket behind the guy in the white shirt. It’s more likely Tom & Faye are filming than parading around like a mummer’s farce. Tom/Jaqen (and Faye/Waif ) could EASILY be in the prequel/spinoff/ripoff. HINT, HINT, Cogman/HBO!

  195. Boojam,

    If Robyn Arryn is there, perhaps we haven’t seen the last of the Moon Door. 🕳

    Better yet, maybe NK flies Viserion to the Eyrie and wightens Robyn. Then Baby Sam can take out Robyn with a dragonglass Lego block.

  196. Ten Bears,

    I’d love to see Sweet Robin finally develop a pair and kick some arse before getting his face chewed off by an ice zombie.

  197. This has something to do with Kits Wedding or a series of photo shoots. Dont stress people, i dont believe this has anything to do with filming otherwise the show-runners simply wouldn’t allow all these main cast members to be hanging out in one place to be photographed. If anything this is just what they want to completely throw everyone off. My bet is something to do with Kits wedding.

  198. Lena Headey/Cersei isn’t there? The last time she was not somewhere she blew it up. Let’s hope she doesn’t do that again.

    Id find it strange that there would be so many survivors. I would have expected some of them to be dead by then. But maybe the’ll be wights? We will see some familiar looking faces within the wights I guess.

  199. I agree. Obviously it’s great to see that so many main characters survive to the end, but I honestly thought S8 would be a bloodbath with only a few characters surviving. It is GOT after all- and we’ve been preparing for this great war for years.

    The thought of a huge love in as the final scene of the show, bringing everyone together for whatever reason, sounds a bit lame, almost cheesy to me. But I have faith that they’ll pull it off well. After all, the S7 leaks sounded horrendous but translated better on screen.

    I think we can all draw our own logical conclusions regarding the absence of Emilia, Nathalie etc. Although I must say I thought a saw a shot of Lena at the Seville match, but it’s hard to be sure.

    Chilli:
    Lena Headey/Cersei isn’t there? The last time she was not somewhere she blew it up. Let’s hope she doesn’t do that again.

    Id find it strange that there would be so many survivors. I would have expected some of them to be dead by then. But maybe the’ll be wights? We will see some familiar looking faces within the wights I guess.

  200. Chilli:
    Lena Headey/Cersei isn’t there? The last time she was not somewhere she blew it up. Let’s hope she doesn’t do that again.

    Id find it strange that there would be so many survivors. I would have expected some of them to be dead by then. But maybe the’ll be wights? We will see some familiar looking faces within the wights I guess.

    Lol hopefully the last shot of the series isn’t Cersei watching the destruction of the Dragonpit from afar as she sips her wine with smug satisfaction.

  201. Stark Raven’ Rad:
    Che,

    I am a bit worried by Emelia’s absence. If this is a final scene, then I would really hope she was there for it. If Jon survives, I would like her to survive too. They have mirrored one another’s journeys; it would be strange for one to make it and not the other.

    She’s been doing press for the Han Solo film.Or maybe Dany’s just off having a baby.

    But that’s why I’m worried. Reading these comments, it seems that her schedule is packed this month, the time they are filming at this location (presumably with many of these actors, if not all). By the presence of so many of them, it strongly suggests end-game/end-of-show type scenes (much like LOTR had Aragorn’s coronation as a final-ish scene with all other characters present as a send off); so why isn’t she in the scene? They would have been preparing a filming schedule months (if not over a year) in advance which would enable them to arrange things around her film commitments. I doubt that all these characters would be present for a big scene (say, a coronation or wedding) and she is just off having a baby somewhere… that would be strange. The fact that none of her entourage is here (aside from Tyrion and Varys, who seem more fluid in their loyalties than her staunch trio of Greyworm, Jorah and Missandei) is a little more reassuring, but I am still wondering about what it could mean. I am not a massive Dany fan (my absolute favourites are Jon and Sam), but I do like the character and would like to see her survive the end of the world. Both she and Jon have been through so much; it would be a shame if it ended in either of their deaths. I want their journeys, all their growth, to mean something.

  202. Roshan,

    Stop with the “leaks” talk!!! Thank goodness your post was incomprehensible.

    🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱🚱

  203. Ten Bears,

    Handled 🙂

    Still, all supposed leaks till now have been unsubstantiated, or outright provably false, thankfully. So I wouldn’t worry much about spoilers.

  204. T-Dan:
    This has something to do with Kits Wedding or a series of photo shoots.Dont stress people, i dont believe this has anything to do with filming otherwise the show-runners simply wouldn’t allow all these main cast members to be hanging out in one place to be photographed. If anything this is just what they want to completely throw everyone off. My bet is something to do with Kits wedding.

    A wedding that just happens to be near a set which is about to start filming, with no sign of his wife? With almost no Night’s Watch cast present? With the doubles of Sansa and Tyrion? I don’t see it.

  205. They are all dead.
    This is for a dream scene where someone sees a vision of all their dead friends.

  206. Che,

    See my previous comment, it seems pretty clear why team Dany aren’t present. As you said, it’s highly doubtful Dany will be on a birthing bed for the last scene. And her visions in season 2 (as well as Mirri Maz Dur’s words) are strong indicators of Dany’s fate.

    The dragons have to go.. and Dany is inextricably tied to her children.

  207. If Robin Aryn has really been seen then I imagine this is the great houses, or what’s left of them, in a Great Council to settle the future rulers of Westeros… and they won the war for dawn.

  208. Anyone notice they are ALL wearing dark clothing? I don’t think that can be a coincidence – I think they’ve been told to but I’m not sure why!

  209. Clob,

    I can’t stand Cersei but she is an excellent baddie. I think she’ll almost certainly die, but deserves a decent send off. Preferably when she realises she’s lost everything and the ones who were on the receiving end of her spite won out in the end.

    As for VF, I’m sure it’s been mentioned before, but I believe he’s a stuntman for the show as well as the NK so there’s a possibility he’s there in that capacity. Although with many of the other main players around he’s probably on NK duty.

  210. Carole H:
    T-Dan,

    I believe that the wedding is in Scotland at Rose’s Dad’s Lickleyhead Castle in Aberdeenshire.

    ______________

    (S3e7)
    Orell to Ygritte: “You think he loves you, is that it? What did he tell you? He’s going to make you his lady and live with you in some castle?”

    ☃️🏰🏹

  211. Of the people listed there, it’s basically Jon and his friends or relatives. Sansa wouldn’t go to the capital unless Cersai is dead…or absent.

  212. Ëonwë,

    I think Tyrion would betray everyone for Jaime. I think he’s kind of sentimental about Cersai’s unborn infant, too. He always tries to connect with his sister despite what she’s done. He loves her, but she doesn’t love him and he knows it. He loves his family, he said it a few times on the show. So I have to ask, who in his family does he love? Cersai, Tywin, Joffrey, Myrcella, or that one that toppled out the window whose name escapes me now…? Or does he love Jaime only? I think he meant it when he said he loves his whole family.

  213. Ten Bears,

    ahh i see. Ok Im calling it, its promo shoots or just a cover/distraction so we all guessing whose filming and what they are filming

    Maybe the last scene is 2000 years later and a group of present day Westeros people are walking around the Dragon pit taking photos and selfies and being told about the time of Thrones and Dragons!, with big 3d projections of what the Dragons looked like.

  214. Ëonwë,

    It could happen. A distinct possibility. If you consider that Tyrion, at some point decided he wanted to be king, and was simply using others to get to that goal, then yes, betrayal is definitely possible. It gives the heated discussion with Dany about the “succession” more meaning, too. Looking at Tyrion as someone who secretly harbors the desire to rule, is worth considering. I’m not saying it will, but it could.

  215. Jacken could apear there and reveal he is the golden army leader and turn against cersei.Also Arya might have the waif’s face,maybe she took it when she left bravos!😁😁

  216. I wonder if we’ll be able to obtain any further information today on what’s going on in Seville.

    For now I’m still going with my original assumption. Dance-off in the Dragonpit between cast members to determine the winner of the Iron Throne.

  217. Off topic, but since it doesn’t fit in any current thread… and we’re waiting on more info.

    We were shown the NK turn a baby into a WW with just a touch and then it would presumably continue to grow to adulthood. Since they weren’t killed is it possible that upon NK’s destruction the WW would revert to human when the magic is gone? Perhaps they became too “changed” in the process for that to happen and they simply poof into ice crystals like when they’re cut down. ?

    The reason I ask is because I started thinking of the possibility of the NK capturing one of our main characters, such as Daenerys and changing her for example. We’d think it’s over for her… but then maybe not. If he could change adults though one would assume he’d do that instead of using babies. Hell, I don’t know – just thoughts.

  218. Anon:
    Ëonwë,

    I think Tyrion would betray everyone for Jaime. I think he’s kind of sentimental about Cersai’s unborn infant, too. He always tries to connect with his sister despite what she’s done.He loves her, but she doesn’t love him and he knows it.He loves his family, he said it a few times on the show. So I have to ask, who in his family does he love? Cersai, Tywin, Joffrey, Myrcella, or that one that toppled out the window whose name escapes me now…?Or does he love Jaime only? I think he meant it when he said he loves his whole family.

    I think Tyrion would make sure Jamie and any child Cersei has survives, but I don’t think he would allow Cersei to live. I think the only reason she didn’t have him killed in the last episode of S7 was because she knew it would incite Dany to go ahead and take over King’s Landing.

  219. Lulus Mum,

    I think VF can only play the NT. I can’t imagine any other action sequence happening in the Dragonpit, except of Jon vs the NK one-on-one with possible involvment of Arya, the FM, and Bran. I guess Jaime and Brienne could fit here, too. Maybe, even Tyrion who was heroic on occasions and even Sansa who came very close to that, too, when she plannet to push Joffrey down from the catswalk. Sweetrobin is the most unlikely participant, but then again – who knows? He might have made some progress since we last saw him, or he might turn in KL some other way (for instance, kidnapped by Cersei’s forces or whatever).

    On the other hand, Dragonpit may host two scenes: the NK’s demise early in Ep6 (Ep5 may be the battle between the living and the dead as well as settling issues between the living, namely, taking out Cersei) and the aftermath with coronation, funeral and/or establishment of the new order.

    As for Dany’s absence, she may simply come later and/or she may be in some trouble. Euron showed too much interest in her in Ep 707 and I can imagine him kidnapping her somehow. In such case, Jon will have to choose between saving the realm from the NK and saving Dany, whereas Tyrion’s quest to save Yara may turn into something bigger, too.

    Sure, there is an option that Dany dies in the air-battle and Jon follows shortly afterwards mortally wounded by the NK, but that would be too simple for GOT, so I hope that won’t happen.

  220. Clob,

    I think it’s possible one of our heroes – probably Mr. Unselfish Jon Snow – voluntary undergoes the Uncle Benjen shard-in-the-chest treatment.

    We should also take it as a given that one or more familiar characters gets wightened. (We should have a sweepstakes to see who guesses who’s the first to be turned.) I’m hoping it’s Lord Glover.

  221. Actually, this is a pretty logical and fulfilling conclusion to the show that I could totally live with- and fits pretty well with the theme of breaking the wheel etc. I wonder if Westeros will be ruled by an elected leader, or more of a parliamentary mode of government.

    I’m just going to come right out and say that Dany is clearly dead by this point (sorry folks- but this has been clear for sooo long). But Kit’s absence here is also somewhat revealing – I’m wondering if Jon also dies in the great war. After all, if the remaining characters know that he is the legitimate heir to the IT (if it even still exists), then surely a great council wouldn’t be required?

    Northstar:
    IfRobin Aryn has really been seen then I imagine this is the great houses, or what’s left of them, in a Great Council to settle the future rulers of Westeros… and they won the war for dawn.

  222. Apollo,

    Personally, I can’t envisage an ending where Dany survives.

    As you said earlier, the dragons will probably have to die. And without her dragons, she doesn’t necessarily have the support or the means to successfully press her claim or “build a better world” as she claims to want to anyway.

    But, more importantly, I think she (fire) and the Night King (ice) will both have to be removed from the equation by the end of the show, so that the Westerosi can move forward into a new era.

    Will she go out the hero, defeating the Night King; or in tragic circumstances; or will she go out a villain somehow? We’ll see.

    The reason I could envisage Jon surviving is because if he doesn’t have any say in the fate of the monarchy / Seven Kingdoms post-war then R+L=J is rendered completely redundant.

    So I agree with you that Emilia’s absence is potentially revealing, while I find Kit’s absence rather confusing.

    Although, we did have one person claim that they saw him, Sophie and Gwen at an airport. And Sophie and Gwen have both ended up in Seville. So maybe Kit’s lurking somewhere nearby or in a dark room still sleeping off his hangover from his stag do at the weekend.

  223. Eonwe:
    Tomorrow is expected at Alfonso XIII a really big name. I would trust my source.

    Hafþór Júlíus “Thor” Björnsson…? That’s like a whole bunch of letters. Pretty big. 😛

  224. Apollo:
    Actually, this is a pretty logical and fulfilling conclusion to the show that I could totally live with- and fits pretty well with the theme of breaking the wheel etc. I wonder if Westeros will be ruled by an elected leader, or more of a parliamentary mode of government.

    I’m just going to come right out and say that Dany is clearly dead by this point (sorry folks- but this has been clear for sooo long). But Kit’s absence here is also somewhat revealing – I’m wondering if Jon also dies in the great war. After all, if the remaining characters know that he is the legitimate heir to the IT (if it even still exists), then surely a great council wouldn’t be required?

    I like the idea of a war council to determine the (hopefully more democratic) future of Westeros. However, if Dany and Jon are absent, I think it’s just as probable that they’ve left KL/Westeros or have been exiled. If Dany is alive at the end and any of her dragons have survived, I don’t think she’d be willing to chain them up again. I think she/they would go somewhere the dragons could roam as freely as possible.

  225. krupke: I think she/they would go somewhere the dragons could roam as freely as possible.

    To me, the biggest issue with the dragons is that they will eat anything they want, including people. Dragons cannot be tamed. Your choices are basically to either chain them up like slaves to prevent that from happening or let them roam free to terrorize the land. That’s why I think dragons cannot exist in order for Westeros to become a better world. This would be a problem for Dany whether she stays in Westeros or goes elsewhere.

    Right now I’m kind of agreeing with Apollo and the 20th good man that Dany won’t live, but I’m not completely sure.

  226. Inga,

    Hi Inga *waving as always*. Actually I didn’t think what I said through properly – no change there then 😉 I meant VF could be filming some totally-unrelated-to-the-NK action, forgetting they are only likely to be doing dragon pit stuff there. I’m thinking of places which stand in for lots of locations. Just ignore me. Well, the VF doing non-NK stuff, I stand by what I said about Cersei! 😀

  227. Mr Derp: To me, the biggest issue with the dragons is that they will eat anything they want, including people.Dragons cannot be tamed.

    Was there any indication in S7 that the adult dragons were doing this? Is there anything in the published ASOIAF lore that states how the Valyrians dealt with this issue. At some point there were plenty of dragons. I don’t think they would have sustained that as long as they did before the Doom if they hadn’t figured out a way to let them roam/grow and trained them to avoid eating humans.

  228. I agree- I think that’s exactly what’ll happen. Dany will die, and Jon will be the ultimate (self) sacrifice to save mankind.

    When you think about it, Jon clearly has a destiny of far greater consequence than simply sitting on an old Iron chair, he is the chosen one/PTWP/ whatever.. all just so he could rule Westeros as a Targaryen/Stark? Doubtful.

    We now know he is the song of ice and fire, and he will most likely be the tool that brings peace and maintains balance between summer and winter. He was resurrected by fire and may possibly be immortalised by ice by being the one to replace the NK.

    Boy- wouldn’t that give the fans a controversial ending!

    Ten Bears:
    Clob,

    I think it’s possible one of our heroes – probably Mr. Unselfish Jon Snow – voluntary undergoes the Uncle Benjen shard-in-the-chest treatment.

    We should also take it as a given that one or more familiar characters gets wightened. (We should have a sweepstakes to see who guesses who’s the first to be turned.) I’m hoping it’s Lord Glover.

  229. Mr Derp:
    That’s why I think dragons cannot exist in order for Westeros to become a better world.This would be a problem for Dany whether she stays in Westeros or goes elsewhere.

    Jaehaerys the Wise would disagree. The golden age of the Seven Kingdoms was an eighty-year period of peace and prosperity backed by dragon power.

    Apollo,

    Why would anyone replace the Night King? He’s just a dude turned into a weapon, not part of Westeros’ cosmological order.

  230. Sean C.,

    Jaehaerys I was the exception. Dragons are WMD. That’s the sole purpose of their species. Specially if we believe septon Barth theories about them being hybrids from crossing wyrms and firewyrms.

    Targaryen monarchy was built on dragon fire. When the dragons died, this absolute monarchy all it need to fall was a bad king that made half the realm rose against him.

  231. Apollo,

    Yes, ultimately, a dude. The point being that he does not serve any purpose beyond that of a weapon (one that is now self-guided), so there’s no reason why anybody would need to replace them. It’s not like in the Pirates of the Caribbean sequels where somebody always needs to be captaining the Flying Dutchman. The world was just fine without a Night King before.

    Eonwe,

    And? Dragons are neither good nor bad. They’re extremely powerful creatures that have been used for good and ill. And if Westeros were left to “advance”, they’d eventually develop weapons more powerful still (as we did).

  232. krupke: Was there any indication in S7 that the adult dragons were doing this?

    There was plenty of indication in season 4 episode 10 of the show that they were doing this. I.E. When Drogon was loose in the city of Meereen it killed humans.

    “They’re dragons, Khaleesi, they can never be tamed. Not even by their mother.”
    ―Jorah Mormont to Daenerys

  233. Ten Bears:
    We should also take it as a given that one or more familiar characters gets wightened. (We should have a sweepstakes to see who guesses who’s the first to be turned.) I’m hoping it’s Lord Glover.

    It’s too bad Ramsey fed Myranda’s body to his hounds. If he’d buried her you’d have a chance of a blue-eyed, slightly decayed return of one of your faves. 🙂

  234. Sean C.,

    Septon Barth wrote that the long summers and winters the world suffers are the result of magic. When the last Targ dragon died people took notice that winters were longer and summers get short as the years went. Martin’s himself said that the others and dragons are ice and fire.

    So the world needs these unnatural creatures gone to bring back balance. Dragons plant no trees but the final book is A Dream of Spring.

  235. Sean C.: Jaehaerys the Wise would disagree. The golden age of the Seven Kingdoms was an eighty-year period of peace and prosperity backed by dragon power.

    No he wouldn’t because he’s dead.

    In all seriousness, I haven’t read the books, so I can’t really speak on the Golden Age, but in my basic understanding, the rulers prior to the Golden Age were morons and the Golden Age happened because the rulers of that time were able to compromise with each other and, well, not be morons. It doesn’t sound like the Golden Age happened as a result of dragon intimidation, but I could be wrong. Besides, Golden Ages don’t happen through intimidation. That sounds more like a dictatorship to me.

    And if the Golden Age happened because of the presence of dragons then why did the Golden Age ever end to begin with? if it’s all about dragons making the peace then it never should’ve ended.

  236. Eonwe,

    GRRM said that was one of a number of different ways the “ice and fire” motif was present in the books.

    “Dragons plant no trees” is a book slogan of Dany’s, one that isn’t borne out by actual history.

    Mr Derp,

    Every government in Westeros is a dictatorship, including Jon and Dany’s.

    Jaehaerys I was a judicious and wise king, but it absolutely was a key part of the golden age that the monarchy had absolutely dominating military power on its side. That’s how kings secure their rule and enforce their will (or, ideally, make that unnecessary).

  237. Mr Derp: There was plenty of indication in season 4 episode 10 of the show that they were doing this.I.E. When Drogon was loose in the city of Meereen it killed humans.

    “They’re dragons, Khaleesi, they can never be tamed. Not even by their mother.”
    ―Jorah Mormont to Daenerys

    There was that incident, but since then has the show gone out of its way to show the Dragons doing this? In Seasons 5 and 6 there were no reports of Drogon terrorizing villages. In season 6, when Jorah and Daario found Dany and Drogon’s “nest” the bones they found were that of a ram. No mention of human bones. In Season 5, before Tyrion fed Rhaegal and Viserion, Missandei told him that they’d never tried to harm her. I don’t think the Westerosi lords will want another Dragon/Targaryen dynasty, but that doesn’t mean the dragons have to die. Was there any mention in the show or books of how the Dragonstone/Targaryen dragons interacted with the mainland before Aegon decided on conquest?

  238. Mr Derp,

    In fact, we’ve been hearing conflicting reports about dragons. According to Jorah, they cannot be tamed and cannot tell what is theirs and what isn’t. However, according to Tyrion, they are inteligent and perfectly able to tell a frien from a foe (and we saw that on the screen). As for the girl Dogon allegedly burned, this could have been easily set up by the slavemasters. In our real world, similar things happen on a daily basis to the level that the “crucified boy in Slavyansk” rurned into a meme (at least in our region). So, there’s no evidence, whether the poor girl was indeed burned by Drogon or not.

  239. krupke: There was that incident, but since then has the show gone out of its way to show the Dragons doing this?

    Why does the show need to go out of it’s way to have one of these scenes in every season to make the point that they cannot be tamed? Once should be enough. I mean, we saw wildfire kill people in season 2 and 6, but we haven’t seen it since, so does that mean wildfire is no longer a threat to anyone?

    There may have been no reports about dragons killing humans in seasons 5 and 6, but they didn’t go out of their way to claim that the problem was resolved either, so that means nothing.

    krupke: In season 6, when Jorah and Daario found Dany and Drogon’s “nest” the bones they found were that of a ram.

    Dragons mostly eat rams and sheep I believe, so that doesn’t mean anything either. It’s their preferred diet, but they basically eat whatever they can get their hands on, including humans.

    krupke: In Season 5, before Tyrion fed Rhaegal and Viserion, Missandei told him that they’d never tried to harm her.

    So what though? Does that mean the child killed in season 4 deserved it? If anything, this shows the randomness in which dragons kill, which should be seen as a problem. It also speaks to the inconsistency in the show with how they deal with dragons. On the one hand, they are supposedly smarter than humans, but they apparently have very little self control. It makes it a bit difficult to nail down exactly how dangerous they are.

  240. Inga: there’s no evidence, whether the poor girl was indeed burned by Drogon or not.

    But apparently there’s enough evidence to implicate the slave masters?

    i thought it was made pretty clear that Drogon roasted the child and there was no reason to dispute it.

  241. Correct me if I’ve forgotten material that’s been written but my understanding of the dragons is that wild, juvenile and/or unbonded dragons are more likely to attack whatever for food (not considering when attacked or in battle). Once a dragon has bonded with a rider, such as Drogon with Daenerys, there is a mental connection, an understanding and obedience to the rider. That coupled with intelligence should keep them from doing things not desired by the rider. We haven’t seen or heard of Drogon rogue killing since Daenerys rode him out of the fighting pit. Balerion lived about 200 years to die of old age and I don’t recall reading anything about him flying around eating people on his own time. With that in mind, as of right now Rhaegal has not bonded with a rider even though it has a connection of sorts with Daenerys. The history says that no dragon rider has or has been able to be the rider of two dragons while both dragons live and some dragons are difficult to bond. So, if Drogon dies but not Daenerys, going by book canon there is a possibility that she wouldn’t be able to bond with Rhaegal to fly even if she is “mother.”

  242. Clob,

    Clob: Correct me if I’ve forgotten material that’s been written but my understanding of the dragons is that wild, juvenile and/or unbonded dragons are more likely to attack whatever for food (not considering when attacked or in battle). Once a dragon has bonded with a rider, such as Drogon with Daenerys, there is a mental connection, an understanding and obedience to the rider. That coupled with intelligence should keep them from doing things not desired by the rider.

    But has that really been established or mentioned on the show or is this just an assumption?

    I don’t want anyone to misinterpret or overanalyze what I’m saying here. When I say the dragons most likely have to go, it’s not based on personal opinion or preference. and I’m not really trying to convince anyone to agree with me. It’s all based on what the show has presented so far, and to me, the show has made it clear that dragons cannot co-exist with civilization. Sure, dragons are awesome, badass, whatever, and if used by the right people they can do good. However, as we’ve seen with Viserion, what happens when dragons are in the wrong people’s hands?

  243. Mr Derp,

    The dragons have not been shown to be an existential threat to humans. The AotD is. If they were completely lacking in terms of self control/ability to be trained, then Dany would not have been able to direct them in taking back Mereen or in rescuing Jon et al beyond the wall, or during her part in the battle in Spoils of War. Dragons existed at Dragonstone before the Conquest and numerous Dragons existed in the Valyrian stronghold. I don’t think this would have been sustainable as long as it was if they were killing random humans in great numbers. It’ll be interesting to see if more is explained about Valyria and Dragonstone pre-Conquest in the books.

  244. In the books. Drogon killed near 200 people before he flew away with Daenerys. Amongst them women and children.

  245. Mr Derp:
    Clob,

    But has that really been established or mentioned on the show or is this just an assumption?

    I don’t want anyone to misinterpret or overanalyze what I’m saying here.When I say the dragons most likely have to go, it’s not based on personal opinion or preference.and I’m not really trying to convince anyone to agree with me.It’s all based on what the show has presented so far, and to me, the show has made it clear that dragons cannot co-exist with civilization.Sure, dragons are awesome, badass, whatever, and if used by the right people they can do good.However, as we’ve seen with Viserion, what happens when dragons are in the wrong people’s hands?

    Dragons in the Dragon Pit had riders yet still were unmanageable, just as Drogon still ignores Daenerys quite often. No reason to assume you can actually tame them in the way you could tame a horse or dog.0 As Maester Aemon said, dragons were the great glory and great tragedy of House Targaryen. Beautiful and awful.

  246. krupke,

    Dragonstone was a valyrian outpost before the conquest. And later was the Targaryen seat when they exiled themselves from valyria. That´s why there were dragons. Dragonstone was built several centuries before the conquest.

    As for Valyria… we know little but what we know is that valyrians place little value in human life. Thousands upon thousands of slaves died mining the fouteen flames. And when the slave population decreased the valyrians conquered a new land and turned it´s poeple into slaves. They even did crossbreeding experiments between females and animals. The books state that the faceless men were born among the slaves of the fourteen flames.

  247. Hannah: Drogon still ignores Daenerys quite often

    There hasn’t been one instance on the show yet when Drogon has ignored or disobeyed Daenerys since she bonded with him, other than being too exhausted from flying to go back to Meereen. The bonding being when she was allowed to first ride, similar to a horse allowing a rider.

    We don’t know what happens in the books since she and Drogon alone after flying out of the fighting pit is where they left off.

    A majority of the Dragonpit dragons were juvenile and/or unbonded, mistreated or not allowed to learn anything but captivity.

  248. Ultimately, the dragons obey Dany when it’s suitable for the story and disobey her when it’s suitable for the story. In other words, they’ll obey if D&D want them to and they’ll disobey if D&D want them to, so it kind of makes it hard to have a clear answer on this topic anyway.

  249. Ëonwë:
    krupke,

    Dragonstone was a valyrian outpost before the conquest. And later was the Targaryen seat when they exiled themselves from valyria. That´s why there were dragons. Dragonstone was built several centuries before the conquest.

    As for Valyria… we know little but what we know is that valyrians place little value in human life. Thousands upon thousands of slaves died mining the fouteen flames. And when the slave population decreased the valyrians conquered a new land and turned it´s poeple into slaves. They even did crossbreeding experiments between females and animals. The books state that the faceless men were born among the slaves of the fourteen flames.

    I know Dragonstone was built before the Conquest. So there were dragons in Westeros before Conquest and I don’ t know if it was made clear in the books/lore that they were a menace before Aegon decided to conquer Westeros.

    In Valyria, was it mentioned in the books/lore that humans died in high numbers during peacetime due to dragons?

  250. Clob,

    Drogon was absent for at least weeks while Dany’s life was in danger. Strongly implies he has a very strong willed mind of his own.
    In the books, Dany and Drogon are stranded for a long time (days); he is plenty rested, he just is uncooperative. Dany has to go along with what he wants, as he kills things at will. And before they even leave Daznak’s Pit, he burns 200+ people including women and children. (It could be argued that Dany could have made him stop, she just didn’t care. Either way, it isn’t a great argument for why she should have the dragons).

    As Daenerys herself says, Mother of Monsters

  251. Mr Derp:
    Ultimately, the dragons obey Dany when it’s suitable for the story and disobey her when it’s suitable for the story.In other words, they’ll obey if D&D want them to and they’ll disobey if D&D want them to, so it kind of makes it hard to have a clear answer on this topic anyway.

    If the dragons/Dany are alive at the end of the war against the AotD, I do think that they will leave Westeros or at least go back to Dragonstone. I don’t think the remaining Westerosi lords will want them there and I don’t think that Dany will be willing to chain them in the dragon pit again.

  252. Clob,

    Dreamfyre: queen Helaena´s dragon (wife of Aegon II). It´s first raider was princes Rhaena, Jaehaerys sister. Chained in the dragonpit when Rhaenyra took the city. Helaena went mad after her son murder. She was throw to the pit of the Red Keep. Her murder was one of the reasons King´s Landing rose against Rhaenyra. Dreamfyre broke the chains and attempted to flee througth the vault of the Dragonpit. The vault collapsed and the dragons and people inside were buried.

    Morghul: princess Jaehaera dragon. Too young to be usefull in war. That´s why it was a the dragonpit.

    Shrykos: prince Jaehaerys dragon. Too young and it´s rider was killed early in the dance of dragons.

    Syrax: Queen Rhaenyra dragon. HUGE. Killed at the dragonpit.

    Tyraxes: young but sturdy. Ready for war and killed at the dragonpit.

    So we have two adults dragons, one of them from the time of Jaehaerys I. A young dragon ready to be used. And then two young dragons whithout riders.

    They weren´t mistreated. Dreamfyre, Morghul and Shrykos were at the dragonpit because their riders never battled in the war. And later they remained there because Rhaenyra´s forces took KL and the surviving riders were took prisioners.

  253. Mr Derp:

    I don’t want anyone to misinterpret or overanalyze what I’m saying here.When I say the dragons most likely have to go, it’s not based on personal opinion or preference.and I’m not really trying to convince anyone to agree with me.It’s all based on what the show has presented so far, and to me, the show has made it clear that dragons cannot co-exist with civilization.Sure, dragons are awesome, badass, whatever, and if used by the right people they can do good.However, as we’ve seen with Viserion, what happens when dragons are in the wrong people’s hands?

    I share this view.

  254. krupke,

    Westerosi dragons are a thing of legends. It´s been thousands of year since the last report of sighting one. And the further we go in history, the more mudied and unreliable the tales turn. We only know there were dragons who weren´t valyrian dragons.

  255. Hannah: before they even leave Daznak’s Pit, he burns 200+ people including women and children

    That again was before they bonded.
    I was just saying that on the show he hasn’t disobeyed her since that time other than not being able to fly back.

    Obviously we don’t know what happens next with him in the books. All we do know is that he wouldn’t fly her back to Meereen, but he wasn’t killing people. Perhaps he sensed that she wouldn’t be safe there. We don’t know.

    On the show they did what they did to get the story where they needed it; Daenerys ‘beating’ the Dothraki and they joining her army. It doesn’t imply anything regarding Drogon to me other than they told the story in a way where SHE earned their following as opposed to forcing it with Drogon. Perhaps in the books the Dothraki are able to subdue the young Drogon and take him captive as well. That too we don’t know.

  256. Ëonwë:
    Clob,

    ……They weren´t mistreated. Dreamfyre, Morghul and Shrykos were at the dragonpit because their riders never battled in the war. And later they remained there because Rhaenyra´s forces took KL and the surviving riders were took prisioners.

    I think Clob may mean that the captivity itself was a form of mistreatment. From Dany’s comments in the last episode of Season 7 I don’t think she’ll be inclined to chain them again if they survive

  257. Ëonwë,

    I’m referring to Aegon and his sisters’ dragons at Dragonstone before he decided to conquer Westeros….though it is interesting to learn of non-valyrian dragons.

    If the wiki is correct, it looks like dragons were at Dragonstone 126 years before Conquest

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_before_Aegon%27s_Conquest
    “Daenys Targaryen has a vision of the Doom of Valyria.[1]
    House Targaryen flee to Dragonstone because of the vision of Daenys the Dreamer.[1]
    Five dragons and four dragon eggs are brought to Dragonstone. One of these dragons is Balerion.[1]”

  258. krupke,

    20 dragons alive at the beginning of the Dance. Aegon had six and since he was in KL in the begining they probably were housed at the Dragonpit.

    Rhaenyra had 14 Dragons at Dragonstone. Some of them lacked riders. And three were wild. The Canibal (nasty bugger that eated dragon hatchlings), the Grey Ghost (a coward) and Sheepstealer (everytime the bugger was hungry took a sheep of the smallfolks shepherds of Dragonstone).

  259. krupke,

    I did for the most part as they were chained, growth stunted. etc.

    Ëonwë,

    Those were there at the destruction. The Dragonpit was used for about 100 years and housed several dragons and eggs over the years before it and most of the dragons were destroyed during the Dance of the Dragons.

  260. krupke,

    Yes, the Targs took their dragons with them when they fled Valyria and started living in Dragonstone. That´s why Balerion was so huge. He was very old and he died of old age.

  261. Ëonwë: That´s why Balerion was so huge. He was very old and he died of old age.

    I just like the sound of that so I’m digging for reasons why it would be okay for Drogon to live and die of old age. 🙂

  262. The Targaryen dragons in The Dance of Dragons.

    Sunfyre: King Aegon II dragon. Crippled when he battled Meleys. Later when Aegon II attacked Dragonstone he was mortally wounded by princess Baela dragon.

    Vhagar: Queen Visenya dragon. The biggest on oldest of all alive dragons in those days. It´s rider was Prince Aemond Oneye. Both died in the battle of the God´s Eye.

    Dreamfyre: queen Helaena´s dragon (wife of Aegon II). It´s first raider was princes Rhaena, Jaehaerys sister. Chained in the dragonpit when Rhaenyra took the city. Helaena went mad after her son murder. She was throw to the pit of the Red Keep. Her murder was one of the reasons King´s Landing rose against Rhaenyra. Dreamfyre broke the chains and attempted to flee througth the vault of the Dragonpit. The vault collapsed and the dragons and people inside were buried.

    Tessarion: Prince Daeron dragon. Both of them died at one of the final battles of the war.

    Morghul: princess Jaehaera dragon. Too young to be usefull in war. That´s why it was a the dragonpit.

    Shrykos: prince Jaehaerys dragon. Too young and it´s rider was killed early in the dance of dragons.

    Queen Rhaenyra dragons

    Syrax: Queen Rhaenyra dragon. HUGE. Killed at the dragonpit.

    Caraxes: prince Daemon dragon. War veteran. Died in the battle of the God´s Eye alongside, Daemon, Aemond and Vhagar.

    Vermax: prince Jacaerys dragon. Both of them fell in battle.

    Arrax: prince Joffrey dragon. Killed by Vhagar outside Storms End walls. Prince Joffrey also died.

    Stormcloud: Prince Aegon dragon. Died in the same battle in which Vermax and Jacaerys died. Prince Aegon would become King Aegon III.

    Meleys: princes Rhaenys dragon. Died with Rhaenys in a three battle against Vhagar and Sunfyre. Crippled Sunfyre and burned king Aegon to the point his armor melted and fused with his arm.

    Moondancer: princess Baela dragon. Killed at Dragonstone by Sunfyre but managed to mortally wound her foe.

    Silverwing: claimed by a dragonseed (a Targaryen bastard) It was Queen Alysanne dragon. Survived it´s rider and the dance but turned wild.

    Seasmoke: ser Laenor Velaryon dragon. Claimed in the dance by ser Addam another dragonseed. Both died at the battle of Tumbleton.

    Vermithor: King Jahaerys dragon. A dragonseed was it´s rider. It´s raider turned traitor and switched to Aegon´s side. Killed in the second battle of Tumbleton alongside Seasmoke and Tessarion.

    Tyraxes: young but sturdy. Ready for war and killed at the dragonpit

    Sheepstealer: Wild but tamed by a dragonseed. Both disappeared before the end of the war.

    The Grey Ghost: Wild. Killed by Sunfyre.

    The Cannibal: Wild. Never tamed.

    Morning: princess Rhaena Targaryen dragon. Born in the Dance of Dragons and survived the war.

  263. Clob,

    Maegor built the Dragonpit to house Balerion and any future offsprings. It was a monument to his mad ego.

  264. Ëonwë,
    It certainly looks like a good lineup for a prequel series! That’s one reason why I have the Dance of the Dragons as my #1 or #1a/b desire for a new show. Give ’em the budget and get crackin’!! 🙂

  265. Ëonwë:
    Clob,

    Maegor built the Dragonpit to house Balerion and any future offsprings. It was a monument to his mad ego.

    While I do like their use of Italica, it’s too bad they weren’t able to use a larger ruined arena.

  266. Mr Derp,

    And without implying that Dany is going to turn full-on villain, I do believe that Jon and other characters, such as Varys and Tyrion, may come to the conclusion that the dragons aren’t safe to be wielded even by Dany.

    Things like the Tarly execution, Dany’s refusal to discuss her plans for the future of Westeros, and possibly a renewed desire to go and torch the Red Keep once Cersei’s betrayal has been revealed, may raise questions about whether this “better world” she’s promised can ever come to pass when one person wields the power to veto all opposition and dictate all the terms.

    If she were to become pregnant (although I’m not 100% on that actually coming to pass) and decided that her child (of incest, btw – *Targaryen madness alert*) would rule after her and the monarchy would continue as it always has, how would those who have invested in her “breaking the wheel” react to Westeros simply returning to the status quo?

    I find it hard to believe that GRRM would end the story with Westeros basically resetting to zero.

  267. Apollo:
    I agree- I think that’s exactly what’ll happen. Dany will die, and Jon will be the ultimate (self) sacrifice to save mankind.

    When you think about it, Jon clearly has a destiny of far greater consequence than simply sitting on an old Iron chair, he is the chosen one/PTWP/ whatever.. all just so he could rule Westeros as a Targaryen/Stark? Doubtful.

    We now know he is the song of ice and fire, and he will most likely be the tool that brings peace and maintains balance between summer and winter. He was resurrected by fire and may possibly be immortalised by ice by being the one to replace the NK.

    Boy- wouldn’t that give the fans a controversial ending!

    A variation on your proposed ending:

    Danny dies along with her dragons doing something heroically, or becoming Nissa Nissa. We see a vision as she dies of herself and Drogo in the Night Lands. Jon ends the Great War by becoming the Next Night King. Their baby survives; a Great Council appoints Tyrion and Sansa as Co-Regents until the child comes of age. Jamie becomes the 1000th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. Flashfoward: The Kid is King/Queen, visits Tyrion in his vineyard along with the Grand Maester, Sam. They drink wine, Tyrion finally gets to end the telling of his Joke. Sam presents Tyrion with his latest Opus, a book called The Song of Ice and Fire. The End.

  268. Jeez, what a slow news day considering what came out of there yesterday. 🙁 I’ve seen some unconfirmed rumblings about a few characters possibly doing some filming but otherwise it’s felt like everyone just hung out at the hotel pool all day. No confirmed proof of Kit or Lena or anyone new, and I suppose we’ll have live confirmation of Emilia’s whereabouts soon at the Solo red carpet premiere. Really hoping she and Kit pop up there sometime in the next week…

  269. That thread was a long “afternoon at work” read!

    My thoughts on the cast gathering…

    1- If you own several castles, you’re getting married in one of them. Which rules out the Kit/Rose wedding for me.

    2- The plethora of photos in Seville, after selfie-lockdown earlier in S8 shooting, leads me to believe that there are some actors there who will not be involved in shooting. Possibly an informal wrap-party since Spain is a popular holiday spot

    OR

    2a – the filming may incorporate either flashbacks or promo shots for HBO S8 or DVD. Either way, D&D aren’t worried about spoiling the ending because there is no way to accurately guess who is still alive at the end from what we are seeing.

    Love the speculation -part of the reason GoT is my favorite show!

  270. At some point in time I’m going to have to conclude something has happened to Dany. Either she is dead or held up somewhere. I just cannot possibly think D&D would write it out so she is sidelined somewhere just because she is pregnant. Even if she was about to give birth she would be there, especially if this is happening in the final episodes. So I think that is eliminated.

    In a setting and potential scenes involving so many characters her absence doesn’t leave many options.

  271. Looks like that Ian Glen sighting was wrong and just some white bearded middle aged dude from a distance. He’ll almost certainly be at the Sevilla match.

    Looks very troubling for Dany so far, busy timeline for Emilia and none of her loyal OG companions are there.

  272. George,

    I agree with all of this except I’m back and forth on Jaime being LC of the NW.

    On the one hand, I can see it happening because of how much shit he was giving Jon for joining the NW back in the 1st episode. It would be delicious irony.

    On the other hand, I can’t see it happening because I’m not sure that I see him surviving through to the end. He may very well die trying to stop Cersei. Afterall, he needs to fill out those pages in the book with heroic deeds that Joffrey was mocking him for back in season 4.

    Though I’m starting to be more convinced that you’re right as I type this. He could easily fill out those pages with heroics by stopping Cersei from blowing KL to smithereens with wildfire and still survive. He could die of old age in the arms of the woman he loves (Brienne) much later after the war is over. But would Brienne join him at The Wall? Would there even be a Wall at all? And what would possess Jaime to join the NW to begin with?

  273. We got thunderstorm today, no gardening at all, so I enjoyed reading this veeeeery long thread with so many news and much more exciting ideas what all these appearing actors would work out.
    As far as I can see (or better: guess): no way the dragons are alive in the end and no way for Dany. She’s like this “burning star”, comes up with great furor, impresses, drives a long trail, disappears under horizon, clashes down and leaves desaster (Meereen f.x.).
    This time perhaps desaster for NK and the AotD, sacrifying herself and her children, and the magic dies.
    And the survivers have to arrange and build a new worldos…
    Perhaps?

    I don’t prefer a special ending, but I hope for my favorite charakters (and they are legion!) either to survive or to die in an adequate manner (not sure, if this is the right term) and not by-the-way-it-is-told-off.

  274. One cliched trope that we typically see in movies and shows is that the main characters usually survive and the side characters die. I think this is ultimately where Game of Thrones will break with the norm. The main characters (Jon and Dany) will die while most of the side characters will survive.

  275. Apollo,

    I thought Jon was ice and fire as well based on the books however the show has made very clear that ‘Dany and Jon’ together are ice and fire. Mel said in Season 7 that she brought ‘ice and fire’ together in reference to them. Jon’s dive into the icy lake and his ultimate survival I think shows he is indeed ‘ice’ as a normal man wouldn’t have survived being submerged like that. And we know Dany is fire through the various interactions she has with fire and surviving them. I suspect the two of them together will bring balance to the world. They certainly put a lot of focus on their love story and they hit us over the head with ‘baby’ talk so I”m thinking it has to be the two of them together – how it ends I have no idea but as they said last year in interviews – their being together has always been the point of the story.

  276. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
    If she were to become pregnant (although I’m not 100% on that actually coming to pass) and decided that her child (of incest, btw – *Targaryen madness alert*) would rule after her and the monarchy would continue as it always has, how would those who have invested in her “breaking the wheel” react to Westeros simply returning to the status quo?

    Not one person following or allied with Dany did so under the impression she was going to end or alter the monarchy. She has always been one of the purest autocrats in the series. Jon is also an autocrat; he would not have a problem with that.

  277. Cersei: I’m pregnant.
    Bernadette: What? Honest to blog? Maybe it’s a food baby, did you have a big lunch?

    [Apologies to Diablo Cody for ripping off “Juno”]

    #NoBabyDrama

  278. vortex:
    I need someone to spot Emilia Clarke in or headed to Seville. I know either she or Jon will probably die because this is a GRRM story afterall; however, my money was on Jon due to the incredibly large hints of Dany getting pregnant with Aejon Stargaryen’s baby.

    Point being, every possibility about this final season has me incredibly nervous!

    Me tooos 🙂 Stars are unfortunately not looking good for Dany. GRRM has based quite a fair bit/mixed with actual history and those with good intentions either get tied up and down with bs or disappear (hence why the world is so eff’d up). Anyways…. Bub couldn’t be Stargaryen because what’s his name….Jonny boy isn’t a Stark. He’s a Snow until a Writ of Legitimacy. I’m actually excited about that (No… I’m no Jon fan) however, story wise gives me goosebumps simply due to the unknown. There is “proof” (kinda) he’s a Targ.

    I also totally agree with feeling nervous as I just don’t know precisely what to think

  279. Sean C.: Not one person following or allied with Dany did so under the impression she was going to end or alter the monarchy.She has always been one of the purest autocrats in the series.Jon is also an autocrat; he would not have a problem with that.

    Why does sooo many bring up the “incest” word. It’s friggin completely hilarious. They aren’t “underage”. They both try to avoid spilling unwanted blood however, will do so if and when required (that last part isn’t new btw). They both have seemingly good genes. OMG ladies and gents get over it LOL.

  280. If all of these “past” cast member sightings are true, then D&D are geniuses. I bet they invited as many former cast members as possible for a “reunion” type of get together to throw everyone off on who are the endgame characters… Really would be a genius move.

    So many posts on this topic… In response to some earlier posts, if Dany is to die as was kind of alluded to in her House of the Undying vision, it would be poetic that Jorah would serve as the new commander of the Kingsguard protecting her & Jon’s child. Also, I see no way that Tyrion ends up the ruler unless GoT/ASoIaF is meant to be the endpoint of GRRM’s stories.

    He’s releasing a book chronicling the Targaryen reign of Westeros. I think Thrones will end with a Targaryen ruling. Either Jon or he and Dany’s child will be crowned the next ruler. I can easily see Jon granting all 7 kingdoms some form of autonomy but the land will remain united. I guess that could be considered the groundwork for a more democratic republic…

  281. Sean C.: Not one person following or allied with Dany did so under the impression she was going to end or alter the monarchy. She has always been one of the purest autocrats in the series. Jon is also an autocrat; he would not have a problem with that.

    I think he would definitely have a problem with her execution methods, her view of might makes right, and rule by fear. She says she’ll end the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor? What does that even mean. She’s using these hippie dippie platitudes at the same time that she’s ruling through brute strength. Jon would have a problem with that contradiction. He’s always been more of an FDR-public-works style leader anyway.

  282. So far we only know Maisie, Sophie and Peter are filming because of their body/stunt doubles.
    Even though I love spoilers, what D&D did to throw us off was pretty cool. If there is a former cast member they’re trying to hide, then that’s the one to appear in the finale.

  283. Mr Derp,

    Even though Jon and Dany are known as main characters, I think so many others are also main, each of the remaining Starks and lannisters have had their own arc in this series.
    But overall I agree, so many people want Jon and auntie on the throne together, I just can’t see that happening, especially with Dany.

  284. MMJ: I think he would definitely have a problem with her execution methods,

    He would be a hypocrite if he criticized Dany’s execution methods and yet had no issue with his sister feeding a man to hungry dogs.

  285. Eonwe,

    I’m surprised Kit would be heading to Seville on a Friday when the cast don’t usually shoot over the weekend.

  286. I rather love the idea of this being some sort of Council meeting after the end of the war, and if it is I am holding out for my girl; Brienne, to be Lady Paramount of the Stormlands (hopefully with Jaime by her side).

  287. SerNoName: He would be a hypocrite if he criticized Dany’s execution methods and yet had no issue with his sister feeding a man to hungry dogs.

    That’s only one death.
    What about his other sister poisoning a whole family?

  288. MMJ,

    Jon is on the throne because his army (or, really, Littlefinger’s army, but whatever) defeated the Bolton army in the field, and then executed Ramsay in a much more painful manner than incinerating them via dragonfire. He habitually disregards opposition from his subordinates whenever he has a different view. He is not really different from Dany as far as leadership style goes.

  289. Apollo,

    That’s what I was told yesterday at the gates of Alfonso XIII. Through I don’t know if today I’ll go there to take a look.

  290. Colin Armfield: That’s only one death.
    What about his other sister poisoning a whole family?

    “Slaughtered your guests after inviting them into your home” = violation of Guest Right = worst offense in GoT world = automatic death penalty.

    Plus, Arya can do no wrong. 👸🏻

  291. Sean C.:
    MMJ,

    “Jon is on the throne because his army (or, really, Littlefinger’s army, but whatever) defeated the Bolton army in the field…”

    Another example how “history” jumbles reality. As reported by HPNN (Hot Pie News Network) in S7e2: “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”

  292. Eonwe:
    Apollo,

    That’s what I was told yesterday at the gates of Alfonso XIII. Through I don’t know if today I’ll go there to take a look.

    No worries. I’m sure if anyone noteworthy shows up there’ll be plenty of others to provide proof.

  293. MMJ: “She says she’ll end the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor? What does that even mean. She’s using these hippie dippie platitudes at the same time that she’s ruling through brute strength.”

    “Hippie dippie platitudes.” Love that! I may have to filch it.

  294. Sean C.:

    Jon is on the throne because his army (or, really, Littlefinger’s army, but whatever) defeated the Bolton army in the field, and then executed Ramsay in a much more painful manner than incinerating them via dragonfire.He habitually disregards opposition from his subordinates whenever he has a different view.He is not really different from Dany as far as leadership style goes.

    Hm, not so sure about that. It’s a tremendous stretch to equate Ramsay’s execution at the hands of Sansa and Jon with Daenerys’s execution of the Tarlys. As far as deserving execution goes, although Randall Tarly was a jerk, we neither saw nor heard testimony about him committing horrifying atrocities. Nor, obviously, did Dickon Tarly. Ramsay, on the other hand – I’m sure I don’t need to spell that out.

    As for the manner of the executions in question: Ramsay had set up the instrument of his own death – of course he hadn’t intended to be fed to his starving dogs himself, but he’d boasted before BotB about what he planned to do to Jon and his men. And in fact he’d already done that very thing to his own father, stepmother, and infant half-brother, among others. Ramsay’s death was poetic justice – including, perhaps unintentionally, some justice for the dogs he’d starved in service of his sadistic pleasure. Needless to say, the Tarlys didn’t have a dragon, had never threatened to burn anyone alive, and had never previously done so. There was nothing poetic or just about their deaths.

    So, to compare the leadership styles, integrity or judgement of the people by whose orders those two executions happened: I doubt there was one person in Winterfell after BotB who thought privately to themselves that Ramsay had deserved better. On the other hand, we know that everyone (except Daenerys herself) was horrified by what she did to the Tarlys.

  295. I can’t believe there are people actually willing to try and argue that being burned alive is less painful than being mauled to death by dogs, as if there is any way to state such a thing with any certainty or, for that matter, any legitimate reason to quibble over which is worse in the first place.

    They are both horrible, painful, cruel ways to execute somebody.

    If there needs to be any debate or comparison between the executions of Ramsay and the Tarlys (plus anybody else Dany has killed/executed in this fashion) then it should be over the context, not the methods of execution, both of which are patently inhumane.

  296. Jaquen and The Waif?

    Let’s just get this speculation right out of the way. Arya hasn’t been The Waif this whole time…Nymeria would have torn her apart if that was the case. The Faceless Men are good, but not that good.

    The Faceless Men could still show up to eliminate someone: Arya, for violating The Faceless Men rules? Cersei, for potentially messing with The Iron Bank? Danaerys, because the Citadel does not want Targaryen rule?

    Personally, I think it’s all misdirection…

  297. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
    All I know is that if I had to choose one I’d prefer the dragon fire. That would be over in seconds (like we saw the ash soldier still kneeling) as opposed to possibly minutes of dog biting. I’ll just hope I never have to choose cuz they’d both suck! 😉

  298. Last I checked, Dickon and Randyll hadn’t raped Dany, burnt her home down, mutilated and enslaved one of her childhood friends, tortured and flayed dozens of her subjects for fun and killed her younger brother. It’s completely and utterly incomparable.

    Brutally killing two people for not stroking your ego is much more twisted.

  299. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    I couldn’t agree more – if my recent post appeared to be downplaying the horror of either method of killing, that wasn’t my intention at all. I think the contexts surrounding the two executions in question are wildly different, and thus say very different things about the parties who ordered them.

  300. Clob,

    Give me a carafe of Arbor Gold, a goblet of milk of the poppy, and a Margaery Tyrell* fashion show like she gave Renly, and I’d ease my way out of existence with a smile.

    * (And maybe Myranda too…if she went through a metal detector first.)

  301. Ten Bears:

    Give me a carafe of Arbor Gold, a goblet of milk of the poppy, and a Margaery Tyrell* fashion show like she gave Renly, and I’d ease my way out of existence with a smile.

    * (And maybe Myranda too…if she went through a metal detector first.)

    LOL – can you imagine Myranda confronted with Margaery doing her thing? Myranda was a very jealous sort, so even weaponless I don’t think she’d play nice. You’d have to sweep the room and remove any sharp objects. 🍴

  302. Is it safe to assume they’ve been filming the past few days? If so, doesn’t the mere absence of Kit Harington suggest that there may be other stuff happening whilst these characters are gathered at the pit? Unless we’re also supposed to assume he’s dead..

    Now, he can always show up later, but for whatever they’ve been filming these last few days, it doesn’t seem as if he was needed. Of course, we’re simply guessing at this point, as we simply have no idea on the nature of the types of scenes they’re shooting here.

  303. Jay Targ,


    It is a bit confusing. All I’ve seen is that a couple or few of them have possibly filmed some stuff while everyone has gone into hiding out. Whatever they’ve done so far appears to be really small scale. Did they all show up earlier than necessary or are they doing other things behind closed doors? Everyone keeps coming up with thoughts and beliefs that Daenerys has certainly died, but Kit and others aren’t there either…. YET anyway… It seems a little premature right now.

  304. This feels like one of those “remember when..” moments. As in, roughly a year from now when S8 is over, “remember when that filming news came in and we thought this or that or that other thing..?”

    I don’t know about anyone else, but my head is spinning due to all the different possibilities (and due to the length of this thread 🙂 ). While they’re obviously filming something, if this does indeed turn out to be some kind of stunt to confuse us, I think we all need to tip our glass to HBO for pulling something like this off! *clink*

  305. Gwidhiel: LOL – can you imagine Myranda confronted with Margaery doing her thing? Myranda was a very jealous sort, so even weaponless I don’t think she’d play nice. You’d have to sweep the room and remove any sharp objects. 🍴

    Catfight! As I slowly drift out of existence…🙂

  306. Me neither, lol, but I won’t let that stop me from overreacting to all of this by assuming that Cersei, Jon, and Dany will all die in season 8. Just fodder for the thread, lol.

  307. Sean C.:
    MMJ,

    Jon is on the throne because his army (or, really, Littlefinger’s army, but whatever) defeated the Bolton army in the field, and then executed Ramsay in a much more painful manner than incinerating them via dragonfire.He habitually disregards opposition from his subordinates whenever he has a different view.He is not really different from Dany as far as leadership style goes.

    On the whole, I tend to agree. As I’ve said before, I love Dany and Jon (and the D/J ‘ship), but they are both flawed leaders and I still think someone like Tyrion or Varys would be a better ruler. I wonder how others view the following situations:

    – Dany executing Mereen ex-slave for orchestrating the death of a slavemaster extrajudiciously in S4(?)

    – Jon telling Grenn et al to go hold the tunnel knowing a giant was on the other end (S4)

    – Jon executing janos slynt for insubordination in S5

    – S5 Samwell telling Jon to ask Roose Bolton for NW recruits after Jon balked at it knowing Roose betrayed/killed Rob in S3

    – Jon executing Ollie and the rest of the NW members who murdered him (S6)

    – Dany killing the Dothraki khals in the temple with fire (S6)

    – Jon deciding to go into battle (BotB) after Sansa kept telling him they needed more men (yes, I recognize the illogic of her not telling him about the knights of the vale)

    – Jon charging Ramsay’s army after Rickon’s death in the BotB, going against their previously agreed to plan of making Ramsay’s army come to them (S6)

    – Dany insisting on some of the captured slavemasters being killed after the Battle of Mereen (S6)

    – Ned Stark killing the NW deserter in the first episode of the first season

    I think my problem is that I fundamentally disagree with the governmental structures of the Westerosi and Essos societies that we’ve seen. When we have bad people in charge of these structures, it’s really really bad (e.g. Joffrey, Roose, Ramsay, etc), when we have good but flawed people in charge (Robb, Dany, Jon) there are highlights/progress…..but it’s still bad. While I’d prefer someone like Tyrion or Varys b/c I think they’d have a net of better overall outcomes, if their rule was still autocratic….it’d still be bad….

  308. krupke: Dany executing Mereen ex-slave for orchestrating the death of a slavemaster extrajudiciously in S4(?)

    Probably the dumbest thing she ever did. She was willing to give the slavemaster/Harpy guy a trial, but not the former slave. She executed him without a trial in front of the entire city while they were all asking for her to pardon him. The stupidity of her decision-making in that scene was unreal.

    krupke: Jon telling Grenn et al to go hold the tunnel knowing a giant was on the other end (S4)

    It had to be done. Someone had to do it.

    krupke: Jon executing janos slynt for insubordination in S5

    This had to be done as well. AS LC of the NW, you CANNOT let a subordinate deny orders in the way that Janos did. And there’s no room for cowards at the Wall.

    krupke: S5 Samwell telling Jon to ask Roose Bolton for NW recruits after Jon balked at it knowing Roose betrayed/killed Rob in S3

    They needed the men. No problem here.

    krupke: Jon executing Ollie and the rest of the NW members who murdered him (S6)

    I think this goes without saying that this was justified.

    krupke: Dany killing the Dothraki khals in the temple with fire (S6)

    It was either that or let them rape and enslave her. I think she chose wisely.

    krupke: Jon deciding to go into battle (BotB) after Sansa kept telling him they needed more men (yes, I recognize the illogic of her not telling him about the knights of the vale)

    I don’t want to open this can of worms again, so I’ll pass, but Jon had to fight with what he had. There was no more time to wait or delay based on the info Jon had.

    krupke: Jon charging Ramsay’s army after Rickon’s death in the BotB, going against their previously agreed to plan of making Ramsay’s army come to them (S6)

    Not a wise move, but understandable.

    krupke: Dany insisting on some of the captured slavemasters being killed after the Battle of Mereen (S6)

    I didn’t really have a huge issue with this because it was deserved.

    krupke: Ned Stark killing the NW deserter in the first episode of the first season

    It had to be done based on the law of the land, but I do wonder if Ned should’ve investigated it first before proceeding with an execution.

  309. krupke,
    If you listed all of that stuff how do you feel about Tyrion strangling Shae and killing his father with a crossbow or Varys doing whatever it is he did with the sorcerer in the crate?

  310. Clob,

    And how about Varys backing Viserys to become the next King? Could you imagine if that douchebag actually became King of the Seven Kingdoms?

  311. BeardedOnion: I don’t remember seeing any solid pics of him though. He wasn’t at the football match either.

    If Cersei is dead, It’s very likely Jaime is too by this point.

    I disagree strongly. Jaime’s story arc has largely been about moving away from Cersei and their toxic relationship. Their belief that they will die together stems from their narcissism and their delusional beliefs about being the same, when they are in fact deeply different. “Born together die together” is a delusion, not a fact.

  312. whateverdgaf:
    I rather love the idea of this being some sort of Council meeting after the end of the war, and if it is I am holding out for my girl; Brienne, to be Lady Paramount of the Stormlands (hopefully with Jaime by her side).

    That would be my favorite possible ending scenario as well: the survivors convening to plan a better, perhaps non-feudal future for Westeros. And yes, the smallfolk of the Stormlands would likely have a better quality of life with someone as ethically driven as Brienne in charge. Though she’d want to go roving more often than a regional administrator is usually expected to. Maybe she’ll be the inventor of the Court of Assizes system.

  313. krupke: On the whole, I tend to agree.As I’ve said before, I love Dany and Jon (and the D/J ‘ship), but they are both flawed leaders and I still think someone like Tyrion or Varys would be a betterruler.I wonder how othersview the following situations:

    – Dany executing Mereen ex-slave for orchestrating the death of a slavemaster extrajudiciously in S4(?)

    – Jon telling Grenn et al to go hold the tunnel knowing a giant was on the other end (S4)

    – Jon executing janos slynt for insubordination in S5

    – S5 Samwell telling Jon to ask Roose Bolton for NW recruits after Jon balked at it knowing Roose betrayed/killed Rob in S3

    – Jon executing Ollie and the rest of the NW members who murdered him (S6)

    – Dany killing the Dothraki khals in the temple with fire (S6)

    – Jon deciding to go into battle (BotB) after Sansa kept telling him they needed more men (yes, I recognize the illogic of her not telling him about the knights of the vale)

    – Jon charging Ramsay’s army after Rickon’s death in the BotB, going against their previously agreed to plan of making Ramsay’s army come to them (S6)

    – Dany insisting on some of thecaptured slavemasters being killed after the Battle of Mereen (S6)

    – Ned Stark killing the NW deserter in the first episode of the first season

    I think myproblem is that I fundamentally disagree with the governmental structures of the Westerosi and Essos societies that we’ve seen.When we have bad people in charge of these structures, it’s really really bad (e.g. Joffrey, Roose, Ramsay, etc), when we have good but flawed people in charge (Robb, Dany, Jon) there are highlights/progress…..but it’s still bad.While I’d prefer someone like Tyrion or Varys b/c I think they’d have a net of better overall outcomes, if their rule was still autocratic….it’d still be bad….

    You’ll know the answer for most of those in a couple weeks. 🙂

  314. Firannion: That would be my favorite possible ending scenario as well: the survivors convening to plan a better, perhaps non-feudal future for Westeros. And yes, the smallfolk of the Stormlands would likely have a better quality of life with someone as ethically driven as Brienne in charge. Though she’d want to go roving more often than a regional administrator is usually expected to.Maybe she’ll be the inventor of the Court of Assizes system.

    I desperately want the series to end with Westeros entering a new type of Government, away from from the feudalism that has caused so much hardship. If everything is going to end with a reinstation of Targaryen rule, then nothing will have changed.

  315. krupke,

    Ok, so apparently my comment responding to your post just fkg disappeared after being stuck in moderation purgatory for a while, so here’s the abbreviated version…

    I had no problems with any of the decisions on the list you provided other than:

    Dany executing Mereen ex-slave for orchestrating the death of a slavemaster extrajudiciously in S4(?)

    I thought this was by far the dumbest thing Dany has ever done. Ok, maybe listening to Mirri Maz Duur back in season 1 was worse, but still. She chose to give the slavemaster/Harpy guy a fair trial, but not the former slave who killed him. SHe just up and executed him in front of the entire city even though they were all chanting for her to pardon him. And then she looked all confused when they started hissing at her. It was just an unbelievably stupid moment for Dany.

    Of course, Jon charging Ramsey’s army was dumb too, but it was at least somewhat understandable given what just happened.

  316. Mr Derp:
    krupke,

    Dany executing Mereen ex-slave for orchestrating the death of a slavemaster extrajudiciously in S4(?)

    I thought this was by far the dumbest thing Dany has ever done.Ok, maybe listening to Mirri Maz Duur back in season 1 was worse, but still.She chose to give the slavemaster/Harpy guy a fair trial, but not the former slave who killed him.SHe just up and executed him in front of the entire city even though they were all chanting for her to pardon him.And then she looked all confused when they started hissing at her.It was just an unbelievably stupid moment for Dany.

    I HATED that. I hissed too.

  317. Clob:
    krupke,
    If you listed all of that stuff how do you feel about Tyrion strangling Shae and killing his father with a crossbow or Varys doing whatever it is he did with the sorcerer in the crate?

    I admit I didn’t care about Tyrion killing Tywin b/c I really didn’t like Tywin (although he was a better ruler than Joffrey and possibly Robert?). I was iffy about him killing Shae, because the way it was shot it seemed she reached for the knife first leading to their fight….he still didn’t have to kill her . My reasoning for thinking Tyrion would be better is mostly b/c he seems much more squeamish about meting out death, seems to have the political savvy of his father without the cruelty, and he actually likes politicking. In S7, although several of his strategies failed, he seemed more focused than Dany on making sure that the process of “destroying the wheel” was done in a way to decrease civilian casualties.

    Mr Derp:
    Clob,

    And how about Varys backing Viserys to become the next King?Could you imagine if that douchebag actually became King of the Seven Kingdoms?

    I’m less sure about Varys than about Tyrion, mostly b/c we’ve had less screen time/plot allotted for Varys. I could follow Varys’s reasoning that Robert was not a good ruler and that a Targaryen restoration would be a better alternative, b/c I assumed he felt he would have more ability to help the “realm,” (I don’t know whether that means he feels he’d have a better chance of controlling or getting rid of Viserys or using Viserys to get rid of people like Littlefinger and then getting rid of Viserys. That is, a cruel but relatively weak Viserys was maybe more surmountable than Robert who was backed by the Lannisters) I could see his reasoning in rejecting “desire” b/c of what it made people do (convo with Oberyn?) and that there’s been no indication on the show that he abused his subordinates (S6 ? scene when Qyburn asks the “birds” if they miss Varys). I also agreed with him in his conversation with Dany in S7 episode 2 regarding his loyalty to the realm and its people rather than a specific ruler. Also, like Tyrion he seems to like politicking but is very much aware of the real world cost of politics to regular people.

    Again, I have to stress that although I think Tyrion and Varys would produce better overall outcomes for ‘the realm,’ I feel the inherent governmental/societal structure of the places we’ve seen in Essos and Westeros are not even remotely ideal. I guess, the question is which of the characters has the best innate talent , moral/ethical character, discipline, and capacity to learn that would produce the best outcomes for the most people in the deeply flawed governmental/societal structure of Westeros.

  318. whateverdgaf: I desperately want the series to end with Westeros entering a new type of Government, away from from the feudalism that has caused so much hardship. If everything is going to end with a reinstation of Targaryen rule, then nothing will have changed.

    I would actually love if most of the last episode consisted of us viewing this process occurring (also crossing fingers for scene of Dany/Jon alive somewhere with the remaining dragons and shots of some remnants the Children of the Forest and Giants being alive too)

  319. Mr Derp:
    krupke,

    Ok, so apparently my comment responding to your post just fkg disappeared after being stuck in moderation purgatory for a while, so here’s the abbreviated version…

    I had no problems with any of the decisions on the list you provided other than:

    Dany executing Mereen ex-slave for orchestrating the death of a slavemaster extrajudiciously in S4(?)

    I thought this was by far the dumbest thing Dany has ever done.Ok, maybe listening to Mirri Maz Duur back in season 1 was worse, but still.She chose to give the slavemaster/Harpy guy a fair trial, but not the former slave who killed him.SHe just up and executed him in front of the entire city even though they were all chanting for her to pardon him.And then she looked all confused when they started hissing at her.It was just an unbelievably stupid moment for Dany.

    Of course, Jon charging Ramsey’s army was dumb too, but it was at least somewhat understandable given what just happened.

    Maybe part of the calculation was that the ex-slave performed an act of insubordination and if she let that slide others would do the same (similar to Jon’s decision regarding Janos Slynt)?

  320. Well, my friend went to the restaurant of Alfonso XIII and saw Joe, Liam, John and Isaac dining together. They just finished and left.

  321. krupke,

    It’s not about letting it slide. It’s about being equal and consistent. The slavemaster gets a trial but the former slave doesn’t? That makes no sense. That should piss everyone off under her rule. If I lived there I would be worried whether or not I would get a fair trial or be treated equally if it ever came up.

    Jon’s situation was much more consistent and the rules much clearer. Disobey the LC and you die. Murder the LC and you die. It’s pretty consistent across the board and he clearly had the support of the NW. Everyone knows what the expectations are there.

  322. Gwidhiel:
    So, to compare the leadership styles, integrity or judgement of the people by whose orders those two executions happened: I doubt there was one person in Winterfell after BotB who thought privately to themselves that Ramsay had deserved better. On the other hand, we know that everyone (except Daenerys herself) was horrified by what she did to the Tarlys.

    I agree with you that Ramsay deserved what he got and the Tarly’s did not. And that Dany should be frowned upon for what she did to the Tarly’s. (As I stated before, that action is gonna bite her in the ***)
    But did she really think at the end that the Tarly’s deserved that? For me (when I watched a rerun), it was more of: She stated before that they have a choice, bow or die. When Tyrion stated that that wasn’t such a good idea, I think she agreed with Tyrion, but she spoke the words and she knew she couldn’t back down.
    Now she had a choice: Let the execution continue, keep her word. Or take her words back which will result in people not taking her serious. She took the right choice. Her fault was not that choice, her fault was that she spoke before thinking. She didn’t think ahead what could happen 5 minutes later. (which is in my opinion not a sign of a great leader)

    edit: The comment treat is very long to read, so it can happen that something is said before. I’m not going to read so many comments and react to it, so sorry beforehand if I said something, somebody else already said.

  323. Mr Derp,

    The slavemaster’s guilt was in question, Mossador’s was not. He openly admitted his crime to Danerys. There was no need for a trial.

  324. Mr Derp,

    I think she should have listened to her advisers and executed him quietly. Otherwise, I believe that she was caught in a very difficult situation and that there was no perfect solution.

  325. Mr Derp:
    krupke,

    It’s not about letting it slide.It’s about being equal and consistent.The slavemaster gets a trial but the former slave doesn’t?That makes no sense.That should piss everyone off under her rule.If I lived there I would be worried whether or not I would get a fair trial or be treated equally if it ever came up.

    Jon’s situation was much more consistent and the rules much clearer.Disobey the LC and you die.Murder the LC and you die.It’s pretty consistent across the board and he clearly had the support of the NW.Everyone knows what the expectations are there.

    But the slavemaster(?) didn’t get a trial. When the ex-slave orchestrated his death he bypassed a potential trial and Dany’s decision as ruler of Mereen. Jon didn’t have to kill Janos Slynt. He was lord commander. He could have imprisoned him or decided to institute tribunals for such transgressions. (He eventually concluded [correctly] that allying with the Wildlings was more in line with the NW’s mission and a needed measure to help in defeating the AotD. This decision was went against hundreds of years of NW tradition). I think his calculation at that moment may have been similar to Dany’s, i.e. flagrant insubordination must be dealt with corporally….. I wonder if, knowing what they do now, they’d make the same decision again…

  326. Mr Derp:
    Young Dragon,

    So you think she handled that situation well?

    I think Daenerys (read D&D) had Mossador killed because he didn’t exist as such* in the books and they wanted to get rid of him. 😛

    *

    Book!Mossador was one of Missandei’s brothers that became Unsullied. He was killed by the Sons of the Harpy.
  327. Jay Targ,

    Well if it’s accurate then there’s one of the three so far. One might expect Anton and Hafþór to show up sometime this weekend too since if she’s filming they’re likely in the area as well.

  328. mau: The Waif is dead, but her face is not. It can be used again

    To my eyes the Waif’s death was ambiguous ,Syrio Forel like. Also being a FM we don’t know if The Waif Arya who faced was The Waif!

    That explicit picture of Tom Wlaschiha , that was in Seville? Jaqen and The Waif could indeed be part of the story there.

    What about Darrio anyone spot Huisman anywhere this production season?

  329. Can someone explain to me why/how the people of Westeros would accept a kinslaying dwarf(who the majority of them look down on for being a dwarf) as any kind of King or regent? It just makes no sense whatsoever.

    We as the audience know that Tyrion didn’t kill Joffrey but the people of Westeros believe he did. And him murdering his father and fleeing “the gods justice” after his trial only makes him look more guilty. Tyrion ending up in charge at the end of this is just too unbelievable.

    The most Tyrion could be is an advisor. Trying to make him the endgame ruler is pure nonsense. That would feel like total pandering to the Tyrion fandom and abandonment of the story they’ve told thus far. I pray D&D don’t do something so over the top & unbelievable.

  330. Young Dragon,

    I can agree with this and that’s valid.

    I think she badly misread how her subjects would react to the execution and that may be the biggest issue for me.

  331. krupke,

    He did need to kill Janos slynt because as derp said it’s the nw law. And it wasn’t only that Janos disobey Jon, he even insulted his superior and he made clear that he will never listen to Jon. You can’t compare those 2. The night watch you can compare to the military. And mereen as a city or country. Look at real life, military has their own laws different from the country laws.

  332. Boojam: To my eyes the Waif’s death was ambiguous ,Syrio Forel like. Also being a FM we don’t know if The Waif Arya who faced was The Waif!

    That explicit picture ofTom Wlaschiha , that was in Seville?Jaqen and The Waif could indeed be part of the story there.

    What about Darrio anyone spot Huisman anywhere this production season?

    The Waif’s face was on the wall of faces. I think that means she’s dead, but I suppose you never know.

  333. Boojam: we don’t know if The Waif Arya who faced was The Waif!

    They showed us the waif’s face in the hall. It would be a total nut-shot for her to still be alive having ripped off her own face and is wearing Arya’s on her bloody skull. doesn’t work that way – Arya is Arya

  334. Clob: They showed us the waif’s face in the hall.It would be a total nut-shot for her to still be alive having ripped off her own face and is wearing Arya’s on her bloody skull.doesn’t work that way –Arya is Arya

    What’s to keep some other Waif from wearing the Waif’s face?

  335. Aegon the Icedragon: Can someone explain to me why/how the people of Westeros would accept a kinslaying dwarf

    Other than the “people are sheep” cliche? 🙂

    I would say that whomever would be “in charge” at the end will have earned it through actions we haven’t seen yet. Everyone is trying to decide who deserves it so far and using previous actions from separate turmoils that all had to be dealt with in different manners. If there is a king/queen at the end I suspect the people will all want that person because of actions performed in S8.

  336. Clob:
    krupke,
    If you listed all of that stuff how do you feel about … Varys doing whatever it is he did with the sorcerer in the crate?

    You know, I was wondering whatever happened to that sorcerer-in-a-box.

    ( “I’m not dead yet…. I’m getting better.”)

  337. Firannion: I just hope Maisie doesn’t have to walk more than a few steps on cobblestones in those platform shoes!Not very stable.

    A Girl has many gifts.

  338. Boojam: What’s to keep some other Waif from wearing the Waif’s face?

    Are you suggesting that another FM or acolyte that we never met is wearing the waif’s face? That’s fine. You confused me because “waif” isn’t a title it’s what Arya called that specific girl (that has no name).

  339. I hope we’ve seen the last of Waify McWaiferton. I had enough of her in seasons 5 and 6.

    I wonder where they got the name “waif” from anyway.

  340. Mr Derp: The Waif’s face was on the wall of faces.I think that means she’s dead, but I suppose you never know.

    _______
    Wait. Is someone suggesting the Waif is walking around Braavos without a face?

  341. Mr Derp:
    I hope we’ve seen the last of Waify McWaiferton.I had enough of her in seasons 5 and 6.

    I wonder where they got the name “waif” from anyway.

    The book character is a small, sickly looking female that Arya first believes is a young girl but later learns she’s much older than her appearance. She calls her waif because of that. They’re friends.

  342. Mr Derp:
    I hope we’ve seen the last of Waify McWaiferton.I had enough of her in seasons 5 and 6.

    I wonder where they got the name “waif” from anyway.

    Name given in the books, tho she actually is given no ‘real’ name , I think?, I notice in Spanish news she called something else after the story she tells. The book ‘waif’ is more weird than the show ‘waif’ and seemingly no an Arya antagonist.

  343. Clob: The book character is a small, sickly looking female that Arya first believes is a young girl but later learns she’s much older than her appearance.She calls her waif because of that.They’re friends.

    I will wonder why the show turned the Waif into Arya’s nemesis – and never explained why.

  344. Ten Bears: _______
    Wait. Is someone suggesting the Waif is walking around Braavos without a face?

    Maybe she’s like the Black Knight from Monty Python.

    The Waif: “‘Tis but a scratch.”
    Arya: “A scratch? Your face is off.”
    The Waif: “No it isn’t!”
    Arya: “Well what’s that then?”
    The Waif: “I’ve had worse.”

  345. Ten Bears: I will wonder why the show turned the Waif into Arya’s nemesis – and never explained why.

    Yeah that seemed an over simplification , they stepped down ‘the Waif’s’ dimensionalty in the show. In fact they seemed in hast to dispose of the House of Black and White … Arya’s time there in the books is so strange it is delicious. He education is not just chop-socky lessons , it was more convincing.

  346. Kevin1989:
    krupke,

    He did need to kill Janos slynt because as derp said it’s the nw law. And it wasn’t only that Janos disobey Jon, he even insulted his superior and he made clear that he will never listen to Jon. You can’t compare those 2. The night watch you can compare to the military. And mereen as a city or country. Look at real life, military has their own laws different from the country laws.

    NW law or tradition? Jon ignored the ingrained NW mantra of fighting the Wildlings

  347. Enharmony1625: Maybe she’s like the Black Knight from Monty Python.

    The Waif: “‘Tis but a scratch.”
    Arya: “A scratch? Your face is off.”
    The Waif: “No it isn’t!”
    Arya: “Well what’s that then?”
    The Waif: “I’ve had worse.”

    😂🤣😄😄

    Now stand aside, worthy adversary!

  348. kevin1989: I
    But did she really think at the end that the Tarly’s deserved that? For me (when I watched a rerun), it was more of: She stated before that they have a choice, bow or die. When Tyrion stated that that wasn’t such a good idea, I think she agreed with Tyrion, but she spoke the words and she knew she couldn’t back down.
    Now she had a choice: Let the execution continue, keep her word. Or take her words back which will result in people not taking her serious. She took the right choice. Her fault was not that choice, her fault was that she spoke before thinking. She didn’t think ahead what could happen 5 minutes later. (which is in my opinion not a sign of a great leader)

    One of the reasons I prefer the books to the show is the insight readers get into what POV characters are thinking and feeling. I find show!Dany pretty hard to read – in S7 especially Emilia Clarke seemed to be playing her with very little humor, in all of the episodes she was mostly solemn and determined or angry and determined. I can’t recall her displaying doubt; maybe you’re right, and I just missed it. But whether or not Daenerys regretted her choice to burn the Tarlys alive, I don’t think one can reasonably compare their execution with that of Ramsay.

  349. krupke: NWlaw or tradition?Jon ignored the ingrained NW mantra of fighting the Wildlings

    Not really. As Jon correctly explained to Tormund in S5e5 (I think), for 8,000 years the NW had pledged to guard “the realms of men” and for most or all of that time they’d fallen short of that oath.

    It seems to me the Wall was built and NW formed to protect against WWs; out of boredom or prejudice, the NW just started vilifying and attacking the free folk, who returned the favor.

    Or, as Ygritte explained: “We’ve been here the whole time. You lot just put up the stupid wall and said [it was your land]”, or something like that.

  350. krupke: NWlaw or tradition?Jon ignored the ingrained NW mantra of fighting the Wildlings

    The mantra was probably never about fighting the wildlings as Sam stated in the past. The wildlings are part of the world men. We can assume that in the past the NW only fought the ww and dead. At some time they changed it to the wildlings.

    And I was talking about the difference between the law of NW and that of a city. Rules are harder in military than normal rules and with good reason.

  351. Kevin1989,

    Yes, and yes.
    And in the military, I’m sure if you disobey a commanding officer by telling him to “take that order and shove it up your bunghole”, you shouldn’t expect a slap on the wrist.

  352. Ten Bears,
    I feel his decision was correct but it still went against the current NW tradition. It was right, but really unpopular, and really contrary to what the NW had evolved to in terms of its relationship with the wildlings.

  353. Kevin1989: The mantra was probably never about fighting the wildlings as Sam stated in the past. The wildlings are part of the world men. We can assume that in the past the NW only fought the ww and dead. At some time they changed it to the wildlings.

    And I was talking about the difference between the law of NW and that of a city. Rules are harder in military than normal rules and with good reason.

    And Dany ‘s role wasn’t as head of the military? Mossador organized a group of people to subvert her decision. Why is it less right for her to consider this as something she shouldn’t let pass? She and Jon were new rulers who’d just had their authority openly flouted. They both could have chosen a different way to handle the situation. Janos publicly apologized for his actions and I think Mossador may have as well.

    I flinched more at mossadors death, but that’s b/c I liked him and hated Janos (at least up until Jano s admitted he was a coward)

  354. krupke,

    Yes. Jon’s decision was right, albeit unpopular. That is why he sought out the advise of Maester Aemon. He was in a quandary, but ultimately chose to do what was right. (Yes, it got him poked full of holes….)

  355. Ten Bears,

    Sorry… Thinking back to Jon’s unchaining of Tormund in s5e5 – an excellently written and acted, yet underrated scene – I’ll never forget how a suspicious Tormund leans over Jon’s desk and asks [paraphrasing]: “And what would you have me do, LOAD KAMMANDAHH!”

  356. Ten Bears:
    Semi-off topic:

    5 or 6 more comments and we reach 500.
    Not bad for the off-season.

    Not bad at all.
    Seems to the case whenever GOT films in Spain. I remember last off season, while in Spain, we would get a new article everyday and the comments would blow up every time. 😂😂

  357. Ten Bears,

    And at least 9(?) months to go…..I’m not gonna lie y’all. I’m a spoilerwhore. I want to know everything about S8. Right now.😈😣

  358. krupke,

    No Dany’s role wasn’t head of the military. You can say Grey worm or batistan was that at that moment. Her role was being the ruler. The queen. Her law was for the people of the city. Normal rule. Not military. Mossadors wasn’t part of the military force so he can’t be prosecuted as such.

    Should she have put him to death? That’s up for debate. But her rule should be consequential (hope it’s the right word). Every citizen should have the same rules and measurement of punishment. She can’t kill one person for an offense and let the other live. The problem was that she didn’t know everything about ruling. And the things she didn’t know she should have listen to barristan with his knowledge and wisdom with it instead of going against it.

    Same with the crusifixion of the masters. She didn’t even consider some might be on her side (as hizdar stated), she acted before thinking. I will not deny she has good intentions and a good heart. But you can’t deny she should have handled things differently.

  359. Ten Bears:
    Semi-off topic:

    5 or 6 more comments and we reach 500.
    Not bad for the off-season.

    The countdown to 1000 comments starts now.

  360. Kevin1989,

    Good points. And let’s not forget that (a) Jorah talked her out of having Daario go ballistic on (I forget which) adversaries; and (b) Tyrion convinced her not to destroy the Masters’ cities (and kill all of their inhabitants).

    Tyrion and Varys are right: Dany needs good advisors to check her “fire and blood” impulses. And as Tyrion noted, retaining and listening to such advisors is what distinguishes Dany from Cersei.

  361. Ten Bears:
    Ten Bears,

    Sorry… Thinking back to Jon’s unchaining of Tormund in s5e5 – an excellently written and acted, yet underrated scene – I’ll never forget how a suspicious Tormund leans over Jon’s desk and asks [paraphrasing]: “And what would you have me do, LOAD KAMMANDAHH!”

    In S7ep6 during his his conversation with Jon on the Wight hunt, I liked how he said Kneeeling when talking about bending the knee.

  362. Ten Bears,

    True, it’s some moments that she cant act reasonable. Most of the time she is. Maybe something to do with her time of the month, when her dragon comes knocking.(sorry couldn’t resist)

    But it’s true as long as she listen to her advisors she’s a very good leader. And she knows she can act that way, she learned from her mistakes. But what if next season something would happen to her advisors or one betrays her. I think she will not trust anyone anymore.

    And about that scene with tyrion and cercei. Made me think if cercei had a quick think about it and for instance promise tyrion that if tyrion would help her and her baby that she will listen to him (even if she would lie maybe tyrion will believe it, he will do anything for his niece or nephews safety.)

  363. krupke: In S7ep6 during his his conversation with Jon on the Wight hunt, I liked how he said Kneeelingwhen talking about bending the knee.

    We know cercei doesn’t have a problem with kneeling as we saw in 4×10. He he he.

    I like how Jon and tormund has that bound formed, the trust from both sides. I like that more than the relationship stuf that he has with Dany.

  364. Kevin1989,

    “when her dragon comes knocking.”

    Well, that’s a euphemism I’ve never heard before – but I could see it gaining traction. 😉📆

  365. Kevin1989:
    krupke,

    No Dany’s role wasn’t head of the military. You can say Grey worm or batistan was that at that moment. Her role was being the ruler. The queen. Her law was for the people of the city. Normal rule. Not military. Mossadors wasn’t part of the military force so he can’t be prosecuted as such.

    Should she have put him to death? That’s up for debate. But her rule should be consequential (hope it’s the right word). Every citizen should have the same rules and measurement of punishment. She can’t kill one person for an offense and let the other live. The problem was that she didn’t know everything about ruling. And the things she didn’t know she should have listen to barristan with his knowledge and wisdom with it instead of going against it.

    Same with the crusifixion of the masters. She didn’t even consider some might be on her side (as hizdar stated), she acted before thinking. I will not deny she has good intentions and a good heart. But you can’t deny she should have handled things differently.

    I would argue that ultimately, she is the head of the military. And if I remember correctly she did listen to Baristan’s advice regarding how to deal with what mossador did.

    I’m conflicted about crucifying the slavemasters. Yes, she could have handled things differently, but I also really wanted them dead.

    But you can’t deny she should have handled things differently.”

    I could make the same argument regarding Jon’s decision to kill Janos. Janos publicly apologized, declared he was a coward and humiliated himself. Jon could have decided to punish him differently.

  366. Kevin1989: The countdown to 1000 comments starts now.

    I’m hoping something new-post-worthy regarding the location happens tomorrow, or at least before Monday. 😉

  367. Kevin1989,

    For sure! Jon & Tormund’s evolution from adversaries to allies to BFFs was one of the best things the show has done.

  368. krupke,

    Jon gave Janos like three or four chances to retract his insubordinations and insults and apologize. Each time, Janos insulted his Lord Commander even more. “Publicly apologizing” only when his ugly head was on the chopping block was too little, too late.

  369. krupke,

    Semi-off topic: Is something wrong with me that I got more satisfaction seeing blue-faced Ollie’s head in a noose swinging on a rope than I did seeing Janos’s head severed from his body?

  370. Ten Bears,

    Janos easily could’ve been executed for desertion when he hid in the pantry during the Battle for Castle Black back in season 4.

    He deserved everything he got. It was long overdue by the time it actually happened.

  371. Maybe something to do with her time of the month, when her dragon comes knocking.(sorry couldn’t resist)

    .

    Kevin you should have resisted harder

    And about that scene with tyrion and cercei. Made me think if cercei had a quick think about it and for instance promise tyrion that if tyrion would help her and her baby that she will listen to him (even if she would lie maybe tyrion will believe it, he will do anything for his niece or nephews safety.)

    I agree he’d do what was necessary to save her unborn child, but I don’t think he’d allow her to live for long after giving birth…especially after he learns she was lying when she said she’d send troops to help fight the AotD .

  372. Ten Bears:
    krupke,

    Jon gave Janos like three or four chances to retract his insubordinations and insults and apologize. Each time, Janos insulted his Lord Commander even more. “Publicly apologizing” only when his ugly head was on the chopping block was too little, too late.

    I didn’t care about him killing Janos, but I don’t think it was any better or worse than dany killing mossador.

  373. Ten Bears:
    Kevin1989,

    “when her dragon comes knocking.”

    Well, that’s a euphemism I’ve never heard before – but I could see it gaining traction. 😉📆

    Haha, couldn’t resist typing a bad pun.

    krupke,

    Well the problem with janos was the law of the NW. Disobey your vows and you die. He gave janos couple of moments to listen to him. He disobey the multiple orders Jon gave. He even if I remember correctly asked janos if he is refusing to obey. When janos made it clear he would never listen to Jon he should have know he was a dead man. And if we would discard the law everytime somebody said sorry, the law won’t work.

    And about Dany, even if she is both head of the military and queen. She should have passed the law of the people on mossador. He wasn’t a military man, he didn’t give a military oat. You could say he was more of a political person (for the poor) and political people will be judged by normal law.

    But it’s more about how she bends the law. One time shes harsher then the other time. But it’s logical she was finding her way. She was young. She tried to implement a new ruling system. And she tried to do it all herself.

  374. Ten Bears:
    krupke,

    Semi-off topic: Is something wrong with me that I got more satisfaction seeing blue-faced Ollie’s head in a noose swinging on a rope than I did seeing Janos’s head severed from his body?

    Lol, I dont know if there’s anything wrong with that. It’s all a matter of personal taste and opinion. I wasn’t happy to see either one’s execution, but for different reasons.

    Janos deserved it, bu seeing him try to weasel out of it and admit he’s a coward was just pathetic to watch. I just wanted his death to be over with.

    Ollie had every right to hate the WIldlings for what they did to his family, but he failed to see the bigger picture and commited mutiny because of it. Justice was served as a result, but I felt bad for him. It’s gotta be nearly impossible to overcome seeing your family brutally murdered in front of you

  375. Ten Bears:
    krupke,

    Semi-off topic: Is something wrong with me that I got more satisfaction seeing blue-faced Ollie’s head in a noose swinging on a rope than I did seeing Janos’s head severed from his body?

    *shrugs* At that point I was neutral towards Ollie. I can understand how he just couldn’t get past what Tormund et al did to his family, but I can also understand Jon’s decision not to show him mercy for his actions. Ollie was a child, but ….

  376. Clob: I’m hoping something new-post-worthy regarding the location happens tomorrow, or at least before Monday.😉

    We will see what will happen: 1000 comments or a new news article.

    Ten Bears:
    Kevin1989,

    For sure! Jon & Tormund’s evolution from adversaries to allies to BFFs was one of the best things the show has done.

    Them and brienne and Jaime are my favorite, “couple”. Both started as you stated as adversaries and ended up being the one closest to them. I like bounds like that. Oh and don’t forget the hound and Arya.

    Ten Bears:
    krupke,

    Semi-off topic: Is something wrong with me that I got more satisfaction seeing blue-faced Ollie’s head in a noose swinging on a rope than I did seeing Janos’s head severed from his body?

    I think it’s because of the arrogant face of olly moments before.

    krupke,

    Depends. If he was in on her lie or not. Would be a big plottwist if he knew. Tyrion always wanted recognition from his family. What if cercei give him that. Would be dramatic if Jaime and Tyrion swapped places.

  377. Mr Derp: Lol, I dont know if there’s anything wrong with that.It’s all a matter of personal taste and opinion.I wasn’t happy to see either one’s execution, but for different reasons.

    Janos deserved it, bu seeing him try to weasel out of it and admit he’s a coward was just pathetic to watch.I just wanted his death to be over with.

    Ollie had every right to hate the WIldlings for what they did to his family, but he failed to see the bigger picture and commited mutiny because of it.Justice was served as a result, but I felt bad for him.It’s gotta be nearly impossible to overcome seeing your family brutally murdered in front of you

    Yup

  378. Mr Derp: Ollie had every right to hate the WIldlings for what they did to his family, but he failed to see the bigger picture and commited mutiny because of it. Justice was served as a result, but I felt bad for him. It’s gotta be nearly impossible to overcome seeing your family brutally murdered in front of you

    I don’t think that Ollie should have been held to the same standards as the other members of the conspiracy – and not only because he had not yet even reached puberty. Despite the fact that he stated that what he was doing was “for the Watch,” he had not yet taken the Black. He was a refugee they’d harbored, not a full member of the Night’s Watch. Military justice was not appropriate in his case.

  379. Firannion,

    That’s valid. I’m not sure how old Ollie was supposed to be, but this is a cruel world that holds young ones to high standards, right or wrong, and he committed a pretty serious crime. I’m not entirely sure that I would’ve held hm to the same standard either to be honest with you, but I understand and respect the decision that was handed down. I wonder if Jon would’ve been more lenient if Ollie had been somewhat remorseful for what he did.

  380. Kevin1989,

    “Oh and don’t forget the hound and Arya.”
    __________
    I’ll never forget The Hound 🐶 and Arya 👸🏻.
    Their reconciliation and final chapter has yet to be written (well, televised). I sure hope the showrunners do them justice in S8. Sansa & Sandor too.

    #You’reAlrightLittleBird
    #AyeThat’sWhatI’mDoing

  381. Ten Bears,

    Yeah, I was not happy with how they portrayed Waif or her relationship with Arya. Missed the ‘Kindly Old Man’ who would ask her to tell him three things that she observed during the day. Missed the training she received in languages, poisons….Everything worked out in the end (despite that horridly written scene of the knife to the stomach and the chase) But it was a much more interesting relationship in the books (and no I am not getting into the book v show drama, just that there are some things I appreciate the book doing better, others I apprecieate how the show handled it)

  382. Mr Derp: Ollie had every right to hate the WIldlings for what they did to his family, but he failed to see the bigger picture and commited mutiny because of it. Justice was served as a result, but I felt bad for him. It’s gotta be nearly impossible to overcome seeing your family brutally murdered in front of you

    All true, I put much of this on Jon he did not convey ( not just to Ollie, but NW also ) the bigger situation, and Sam’s lack of hearing; this left Ollie open to being manipulated by Allister and his minions .

  383. Grail King,

    Yes, this exactly. Those idiot fans who wanted to string up Olly (as well as the actor who played him) totally forget that Olly was surrounded by men who hated the wildings, and couldn’t help but learn to hate them as well as Jon. I really felt sorry for the lad – there wasn’t much of a chance for him to make up his own mind. reminded me a bit of Tommen, who was also between a rock and a hard place, and took his own life because of it.

  384. Mr Derp,

    I wonder if Jon would’ve been more lenient if Ollie had been somewhat remorseful for what he did.

    I remember watching that scene, it was almost like Jon was waiting for any sign of remorse that would have allowed Jon to give the kid another chance. But once Ollie gave that face of comtempt and hate, Jon really had no choice

  385. Ollie had numerous opportunities to learn from Jon and from Sam, and refused to let go of his anger even for those who protected him. He killed Ygritte, Jon didn’t hold that above him as he knew it wasn’t personal, he thought she would kill Jon. Jon killed the Thenn who directly threatened Ollie. Ollie never tried to lose the scowl and accept the people who DID care about him. Yes he was a child. So were Sansa, Arya, and Bran when they lost their parents. They had to adapt to survive. The world of GoT is not ours with our views towards children.

    Ollie deserved the justice he was handed after numerous chances to be spared. His perpetual glowering was as tired as Cersei’s smirk.

  386. Jon taking the head off of that coward Slynt is a GREAT scene. I still go back and watch that entire scene. Well acted and intense throughout… Slynt most certainly had it coming and it was totally deserved. Even Thorne didn’t protest and Stannis approved. About to go watch that scene right now.

  387. Ten Bears,

    Ten Bears. I consider myself a BIG Arya fan. You’re probably the president of the fan club but I’m most definitely the VP or at least on the board of executives. Lol. So I have no problem with Arya being crowned Queen. In fact she’s got my vote over all the rest. I know it’s icky for most (especially with Maisie being just a child when the show started) but I’m all for her & Jon running things. It is A TIME FOR WOLVES…

  388. Ten Bears,

    never mind. used for when I don’t like the way I tried to express something and couldn’t find a better way of doing so within the edit time. So I deleted the post and just put nvm

  389. I don’t like the way I tried to express something and couldn’t find a better way of doing so within the edit time.

    Did you find it hard? Or was it hard to find?

    Oh well, whatever.

    😉

  390. Turncloak Tarly had violated his feudal oath of fealty to Highgarden, turned brigand, robbed (and, on Oleanna’s case) killed the very persons he had once sworn to protect, and was blazingly unrepentant when literally caught with the loot. His thievery of grain on the eve of winter will consign peaceful farmers to the fates of Rabbit Stew Sally and her father.

    Since Dany was in a hurry, she ordered the treasonous sod burnt alive. She should have dropped him, naked save for handcuffs, into the center of the last farm village he’d robbed. At least they’d have something to eat come Winter.

  391. ash: Yeah, I was not happy with how they portrayed Waif or her relationship with Arya. Missed the ‘Kindly Old Man’ who would ask her to tell him three things that she observed during the day. Missed the training she received in languages, poisons….

    Agreed!

  392. Interesting and very spoilery picture of the Titanic set.

    King’s Landing set destroyed
  393. Eonwe,

    I saw that! HBO distracted everyone with Seville! Dany’s scenes would be on Drogon so that could be filmed later or was already done and rumor had it Kit was in Belfast so he could be leading what led your finding!

  394. Ten Bears,

    I love love that picture of Arya & Jon! I wish I could get a high quality photo print of it (the whole picture with Sansa & Bran) to hang on my wall. Team Stark all the way!

  395. RedWolf,

    By this ‘”logic,” we cannot we say that it’s not a Brienne-Arya wedding, either. However, there is zero evidence that anything like that is going to happen. If Jon and Sansa were going to become a couple, then it would have been setup by now. On the other hand, with whom Jon is going to end up has been pretty well setup by now. The closest that there has been for any setup for Sansa is with the Hound! (I suppose that there is weak setup for her remarrying Tyrion, too.)

    At any rate, at this point, if the guns have not been hung, then they are not going to be fired. Anything done should make us look back at something and think “oh, so that’s what that was about…..”

  396. Ten Bears: He was in a quandary, but ultimately chose to do what was right. (Yes, it got him poked full of holes….)

    What Jon did in this case and in others was right given one set of criteria but wrong given another set of criteria. That’s the story: what people do when stuck in those situations where you are supposed to do something but also supposed to not do that something.

    However, if you try to make blanket “he/she did the right or wrong thing” statements, then you are going to lose the story to themes that just are not there. Instead, we need to sit back and appreciate why he/she is going to see pros and cons in any situation.

    We’ve still got the biggest ones to which to look forward. Whyever the Walkers are back and in Westeros, it is not because they are “evil” anymore than Robert’s Rebellion was because Rhaegar was “evil.” My bet is that this Dragonpit stuff might involve the “bad guys” (remember, we do learn that humans are the real evil in Bran’s memories! 😎 ) meeting to try to come to terms with this. We should be expecting something like this at some point.

  397. Wimsey:
    We’ve still got the biggest ones to which to look forward.Whyever the Walkers are back and in Westeros, it is not because they are “evil” anymore than Robert’s Rebellion was because Rhaegar was “evil.”My bet is that this Dragonpit stuff might involve the “bad guys” (remember, we do learn that humans are the real evil in Bran’s memories! ) meeting to try to come to terms with this.We should be expecting something like this at some point.

    I’m not sure why you think this is going to be some huge moral issue for people, let alone something that would warrant a summit. Whatever the White Walkers were in the past, they’re amoral killing machines now. Indeed, knowing this hasn’t altered Bran’s outlook on them at all, as far as we’ve seen.

  398. Sean C.: Whatever the White Walkers were in the past, they’re amoral killing machines now.

    You’ve missed the entire story if you think that! Seriously, take a literature class before you graduate: you’ll learn a lot.

  399. Wimsey,

    With respect, I agree with Sean C. here, and I’ll add my belief you’re over-thinking the WW. From the very first scene, they have been shown to be an existential threat to humanity, and the entire story has been about the human characters slowly coming to understand this ancient foe has returned. The “kill the mothership” trope has been firmly established as the way this threat will be ended. There will be no parley with the Night’s King. (I can’t be arsed to find it right now, but the producers have said the NK and WW have no lines of dialog because there would be no point in having them speak.)

    Put another way, whilst all the human characters may have moral shades of grey, the Others have no such colorations. Hence they are White Walkers.

  400. Wimsey,

    I double-majored in history and English in my undergraduate, which I completed nine years ago.

    And I haven’t missed anything. The writers already spelled that out in interviews.

  401. Wimsey,

    I’m with you on this, Prof. W.
    We have been SHOWN that the WW are the victims, not the villains.

    My tinfoil theory? A CotF – First Men armistice way back when had to resolve the pesky problem of the WMDs the CotF had created that were still running around. The solution? Genocide. And as we’ve seen throughout seven seasons, it’s not difficult to invert the villains and victims in an event, especially with the passage of thousands of years. Or create “propaganda” to serve as the “official” historical account, and substitute for what really happened.

  402. Ten Bears:
    Wimsey,

    I’m with you on this, Prof. W.
    We have been SHOWN that the WW are the victims, not the villains.

    My tinfoil theory? A CotF – First Men armistice way back when had to resolve the pesky problem of the WMDs the CotF had created that were still running around. The solution? Genocide. And as we’ve seen throughout seven seasons, it’s not difficult to invert the villains and victims in an event, especially with the passage of thousands of years.Or create “propaganda” to serve as the “official” historical account, and substitute for what really happened.

    Yes, this mystery is the one that keeps me engaged with the story – books or show. To be honest I don’t care that much who ends up on the Iron Throne – whoever it is will be an imperfect ruler who will make mistakes. Because, humans. (That said, I’m relieved it’s not Joffrey, and am pretty sure it won’t be Cersei or Euron.)

    For me the Others-to-WW is the biggest of all the disappointments I’ve experienced in the page-to-screen translations; the show versions are dumber and less intriguing than how they appeared in the books (so far). I share the suspicion that they aren’t straight-up villains at all. I’ve reconciled myself to not getting much of that backstory in the show (holding out hope, but not my breath, for the books), but hope that the show will at least give us a bit of an explanation, and reveal that the WW aren’t exactly what they seem (while still being terrible).

  403. Pigeon:
    Ollie had numerous opportunities to learn from Jon and from Sam, and refused to let go of his anger even for those who protected him. He killed Ygritte, Jon didn’t hold that above him as he knew it wasn’t personal, he thought she would kill Jon. Jon killed the Thenn who directly threatened Ollie. Ollie never tried to lose the scowl and accept the people who DID care about him. Yes he was a child. So were Sansa, Arya, and Bran when they lost their parents. They had to adapt to survive. The world of GoT is not ours with our views towards children.

    Ollie deserved the justice he was handed after numerous chances to be spared. His perpetual glowering was as tired as Cersei’s smirk.

    That whole loop was a huge emotional quandary. IIRC, Ygritte killed Ollie’s dad during the raid led by Tormund. Ollie comes to CB having seen his family/village massacred. Jon has to put aside the NW tradition of fighting Wildlings in order to start rallying everyone together to save mankind. In doing so he allies with Tormund who was responsible for Ollie’s village massacre. In the meantime, Ollie sees all this happening and can’t get past his hate for Wildlings despite being told multiple times that fighting the AotD supersedes everything. It’s hard for me to believe that he would not have acted differently if he actually saw the wights/WW, but then again Cercei still decided to betray Dany and Jon after she saw the wight….

  404. Tensor the Mage, Popping the Corn In Anticipation Of Ragnarok: From the very first scene, they have been shown to be an existential threat to humanity, and the entire story has been about the human characters slowly coming to understand this ancient foe has returned.

    What? No dance off to end the series?
    Seriously, if there isn’t some “bigger picture” rationale to the WW’s slow-motion march, I’ll be disappointed. Like Wimsey, I anticipate a Stark, NW or “repercussions of the return of magic to the world” rationale (surely, there’s more to Sam’s research and Bran’s visions than uncovering R+L=J, right?). Once AA’s mythological treatise/arbitration involving Starks/CotF/WW/magic is understood, the solution will be clear. If we can’t learn from history, we’re doomed to repeat it. I believe we’re in Sun Tzu territory here…we must understand the enemy.

    Wimsey: At any rate, at this point, if the guns have not been hung, then they are not going to be fired…

    Hey, W, I think now is the time we need to seriously consider “hanging gun” control. 😉

  405. Ten Bears,

    And yet, Bran, the person who saw all his, hasn’t altered his attitude toward the White Walkers at all. Rather goes against the idea that this constitutes some game-changing bit of information as far as how people will regard the White Walkers.

    Moreover, since the COTF are all dead and were working against the White Walkers prior to that point, this doesn’t reorient the conflict at all. The White Walkers are still trying to kill everybody, and must be stopped. The writers even created a show-only instant-kill feature.

  406. Sean C.: since the COTF are all dead

    We don’t know this for sure. The TV version seems to imply that the CotF living at Weirnet Central and killed in the wight raid were all there were left, but no one has really verified this assumption.

    In the books there are almost certainly more: The Ghost of High Heart appears to be an extremely elderly CotF, and we have yet to visit their known magical stronghold on the Isle of Faces. And that may not be their only hideaway remaining south of the Wall.

    An eyewitness account of Jon’s parentage isn’t the only intriguing secret we may yet learn from Howland Reed, who has sojourned on the Isle of Faces!

  407. Firannion,

    I agree that there may be more of them in the books, but in the show that doesn’t appear to be the case, and in any event, the way they were handled in Season 6 could scarcely have indicated more strongly that the writers aren’t interested in the COTF. They did the absolute bare minimum with them and that whole backstory.

  408. Could we see the Faceless Men again, at the Dragonpit? And the Night King? And all these characters too?

    I honestly never thought NK will get that far south. Gods but it has been a long time since I picked up AGoT and I am surprised now I never entertained that idea.

    Wimsey: You’ve missed the entire story if you think that! Seriously, take a literature class before you graduate: you’ll learn a lot.

    Don’t be a wiseass Wimsey. Nobody asked you what class Sean should take. Literally, nobody. It’s rude.

    Firannion,

    I must say when I read your comment I automatically thought Jaime and his Raventree Hall adventure. Not sure why. Gotta be that weirwood tree and the fact they never rot. It just felt like a metaphor for CotF never truly being extinct.

  409. Seriously, if there isn’t some “bigger picture” rationale to the WW’s slow-motion march, I’ll be disappointed.

    Nothing personal or disrespectful, but I believe disappointment lurks in your television-watching future. 🙂

    The back-story has all been told, and it’s pretty simple. Bran’s vision told us the origin of the Night’s King, and between the evidence we saw in the Wight Hunt and got from Benjen/Coldhands, D&D have the “kill the mothership” trope all set. The only question is who removes the blade of obsidian from the Night’s King. I say it’s Sam, with physical escort from No One, and Bran engaging the Night’s King in a green-seer battle (to keep him immobilized for Sam’s surgery).

    …surely, there’s more to Sam’s research and Bran’s visions than uncovering R+L=J, right?

    No, we already have everything we need. Sam’s cure of Jorah was to establish that Sam has the wherewithal to perform the required surgery on the Night’s King. Bran and Sam are already talking together, and Sam already had the mission of discovering how to stop the Night’s King.

    Once AA’s mythological treatise/arbitration involving Starks/CotF/WW/magic is understood, the solution will be clear.

    We already have a solution. Sam pulls the obsidian dagger from the body of the Night’s King, de-animating all of the White Walkers and wights. I’m thinking AA’s role will be to banish magic from Westeros once and for all, thus preventing a repeat.

    What? No dance off to end the series?

    Hey, I never said anything about how the SERIES will end! How about a little soft shoe for the Iron Throne, Cersei? 😉

  410. Tensor the Mage, Not Suprisingly A Big Fan of Samwell: I believe disappointment lurks in your television-watching future……..The only question is who removes the blade of obsidian from the Night’s King. I say it’s Sam, with physical escort from No One, and Bran engaging the Night’s King in a green-seer battle (to keep him immobilized for Sam’s surgery).

    Oh, I doubt I’ll be too disappointed, unless there are more “wight hunt” mentalities and Yara nonsense.
    So does this all-or-nothing synopsis represent the current state of leak-infested S8 pontifications? We’ll see. Interesting that you refer to the villain as the “Night’s King” instead of Night King. Big debate on the difference.

    For me, your point about Bran vs NK is key. Who was the CotF’s first WW? Is he tied to the Starks? Would killing him have consequences? Why did the NK gaze down upon Jon proudly/knowingly during the Hardhome battle? Yes, there will be bloody battles and the Stark/Targ team will find a way to infiltrate the AotD, but they might discover a reason to arbitrate with the NK before the Catspaw jab and “surgery”. Maybe killing the NK will require Bran’s sacrifice? Sam’s book research (maybe within the WF library?) has yet to uncover anything about the AA/Last Hero treatise.

    I have a feeling that the intimate Stark-Targ connection (R+L and J+D) is tied to the NK return and endgame. Will Lightbringer make an appearance? Sacrifices will be made.

    Maybe Cersei will become quite the mosh pit slam-dancer? Who knows?

  411. “Who was the CotF’s first WW? Is he tied to the Starks? Would killing him have consequences?” Quite possibly- “no man is so accursed as the kinslayer”

    “Maybe killing the NK will require Bran’s sacrifice?” Again possible- and maybe even Jon too.

    Hodors Bastard,

  412. “Could we see the Faceless Men again, at the Dragonpit?”

    Tom and Faye’s presence has me really stumped for so many reasons. Although I’m pretty sure some of these guys are here as a diversion, I have been thinking about this- particularly as we never got an explanation of Jaqen H’Gars mysterious assignment from season 2.

    Recall that JH was imprisoned in the black cells (we never found out why), and at the end of the season, he left Arya after assuming his new face. This happens not far from Harrenhal. And who mysteriously appeared at HH at the beginning of season 3? Qyburn.

    In the books, JH next turns up at Oldtown, attempting to infiltrate the Citadel for some unknown (though well theorised) purpose. Could the show have combined JH’s story in some way with Qyburn’s backstory?

    Do the FM, agents of death/the many faced God have a vested interest in harnessing (or eliminating) the powers of raising the dead?

    Does Arya have JH and the waifs faces in her bag? Last we saw his face, Arya had needle pointed at him… we don’t know what happened afterwards. Also- at least two faceless men have worn that same face- how did this happen? Did JH1 return it to the Hall of Many faces?

    The show does an excellent job at tying up loose ends, often after several seasons. So will they do the same here?

    Failing that these scenes could simply be a delegation of great houses and other influential factions (Red priests, Faceless men, Iron bank), but I can’t picture that somehow.

  413. Apollo,

    Last we saw was a girl pointing Needle at Jaqen H’gar and claiming her own identity as Arya Stark of Winterfell, Jaqen H’gar letting her go – after breaking almost every rule in the FM rulebook – and looking after the retreating Arya with almost a smile.

    Are you saying Arya went back to kill and slice off Jaqen’s face? And grab the waif’s from the niche where she put it as well? To stash them in her satchel?

    I’m not a big fan of the FM storyline, books or show, but I find the idea that the FM join the fight for humanity interesting. Jaqen and the waif are the faces (pardon the pun) we TV watchers know so it makes sense to use them if the FM do anything important. They’d be no-ones wearing Jaqen’s and the waif’s faces, who knows who they really are, they’re no-one.

    OTOH, Tom Wlasicha (Jaqen) and Faye Marsay (the waif) could be doing what Sibel Kekilli (Shae) did during the filming of S6: show up and set the tongues wagging, or the online fandom into near meltdown. Hopefully distracting from other stuff. Other, more important stuff. Like lack of Emilia or Kit, NCW’s brief visit apparently over before Lena Heady shows up…

    Flying a couple of (“dead”) bit part players, actors who don’t have a super busy schedule like Emilia, for a couple of days of essentially paid holiday isn’t that expensive in the GoT budget. Seven hells of a lot cheaper than “filming fake scenes” that some in the fandom seem to be so convinced about.

    I’m open to further FM involvement though think it unlikely. Arya left them behind and bringing them in outside of Arya’s arc could be a bit contrieved. Not impossible, and it could be done in a way that Arya meets up with her former cult later on and rejects it, or something like that.

  414. talvikorppi,

    I’d forgotten that Arya walked away from JH at the end of that scene, well remembered!

    There are still several unanswered questions though about JH1. Where did he go after S2 and what was his mission, and who commisioned that mission?

  415. talvikorppi,

    Last we saw was a girl pointing Needle at Jaqen H’gar and claiming her own identity as Arya Stark of Winterfell, Jaqen H’gar letting her go – after breaking almost every rule in the FM rulebook – and looking after the retreating Arya with almost a smile.”
    _____________
    The parting scene, and Jaqen’s final words, were kind of odd. (“Finally a Girl is No One.” WTF?)

    Like you said, Jaqen 2.0 * just smiled and let Arya waltz away – after “breaking almost every rule in the FM rulebook” (including, of course, failing to carry out two hits despite an express warning about the “Two Strikes and You’re Dead” provision in the FM employee training manual.)

    I prefer to interpret that final scene as Arya actually honoring the FM axiom that once a death is promised to the MF God, a face has to get added to the Wall “one way or another”; whose face in particular doesn’t seem to matter a whole lot. By risking a return to the HoB&W to affix the Waif’s face to the “New Arrivals” rack, Arya abided by that weird FM accounting principle.

    After all, it would’ve been so much easier – and safer – to toss the Waif’s weighted-down corpse into a murky canal and then imediately get the hell out of Dodge.

    * By the way, I understand and agree with the showrunners’ decision to use Tom W. as a recognizable face instead of cssting a new actor to serve as Arya’s HoB&W instructor. Still, I missed the rapport that Arya had with Jaqen 1.0 in S2.
    One thing that bugged me was that Jaqen 1.0 lured Arya to Murder School with the pitch that she would be able to offer all of the names on her List to the (MF or Red) God “one…by…one”, and an all expense-paid travel voucher to Braavos. But when she got there, and she offered Meryn F. Trant to the MF God – she got punished for it. Talk about a bait-and-switch.

    As far as Jaqen or the FM showing up again in S8? I have no clue. I am completely stumped.

  416. Do You mean, that Arya was blinded? Was it really punishment? Wasn’t it a further step in her training? She learned to listen to her other senses, to live and act and fight blind, and this ability enabled her to outplay the waif.

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