Game of Thrones Universe News Roundup: SDCC 2022, Emilia Clarke, spin-off talk and more!

Daenerys looking at throne

As House of the Dragon draws ever nearer, we have had quite the busy week for Game of Thrones fans, from news to interviews, and everything in between, with no signs of anything slowing down. Last week, Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth) provided her thoughts on the rumored (confirmed) Jon Snow spinoff. This weekend, Emilia Clarke (Daenerys) offered some brief retrospective on GOT’s universally beloved ending. In case you missed it, a few weeks ago, Maisie Williams was surprised, herself, at a season 8 storytelling choice. And just today, it was just confirmed that almost the entire principal cast from HOTD, as well as the showrunners, plus George R. R. Martin will be attending San Diego’s upcoming Comic Con. So, let’s dive in…

Gwendoline Christie’s much beloved Brienne of Tarth is one of the most adored characters in GOT, so for Christie to weigh in on the future of her character, it seems natural that our ears will perk up with interest. “Brienne is incredibly close to my heart, and I would relish any opportunity to revisit her. I believe she is enduring,” she told Newsweek, referencing the in-development Jon Snow spinoff series. While it’s true that Brienne is one of the long time characters to have survived the entire series, it doesn’t mean that Christie would limit herself to another character’s spinoff: “I would love for that,” she says in regards to a potential Brienne spinoff series of her own. “I feel incredibly and genuinely honored and so fortunate to have had the opportunity to play that character that I have loved with all of my heart for all that length of time, for that decade.”

In a wide ranging interview with The Guardian, meanwhile, our beloved Queen of Dragons, Emilia Clarke, dished on her upcoming West End debut, her personal life, and her thoughts on her journey into and through Game of Thrones. Additionally, some of her closest GOT confidants lavished her with well-earned praise:

Many were good at the first scene. A few were good at the second. Only Emilia made both work. And she made them work far better than the words on the page. It was impossible to imagine anyone else in the role: she was our one true queen. And frankly she just has that mysterious quality that makes an actor special, that makes you want to watch them. When you find someone who matches that star quality with serious acting chops…well, you hire them.”

This exchange, taken from the emails of David Benioff, co-creator and showrunner of GOT gives insight into why Emilia was the perfect choice for Daenerys. And Emilia, ever grateful for her experience, shares what it means to her:

I look back on Game of Thrones like anyone else would look back on high school. It was my entire education: It informed my understanding of the industry, I learned about press, I learned about work. It gave me my bedrock of understanding of what it means to be an actor.

As we all know, it is the legal obligation of every journalist to ask every person associated with Game of Thrones what they thought about the ending. And Clarke does not shy away: “It [the season 8 script] was a challenge…I totally understand and respect why they did it [Dany’s season 8 transformation]. There’s a depressing reality of how it ended that actually feels based in truth, which no one wants for their favourite fantasy show. I’m not sure in what other direction she could have gone.” The Queen has spoken; who am I to question?

This interview is full of great tidbits, so, to hear more from Emilia Clarke on her acting process, what smoking hot co-star Iain Glen (Ser Jorah Mormont) thinks of her, and why she bakes a cake every Monday (true story!), I highly recommend checking out the rest of the interview.

Meanwhile, Maisie Williams (Arya Stark), reflected on Arya’s smooth moves on old pal Gendry in season 8 in an interview with Teen Vogue: “The first time that I was surprised by Arya I guess was probably in the final series where she whips off her clothes and sleeps with Gendry…I thought that Arya was queer, you know? So…yeah. That was a surprise.” She goes on to reflect on the first time she time she realized GOT was going to be big: “When we came to LA in the 3rd series to do our premiere, and there was all of these fans, and they were all saying our names, like our real names, not our character names, I just remember thinking ‘this is very different to my life – my normal life,’ and that’s when I thought ‘yeah maybe this show is kind of a big deal.'” A big deal indeed, Maisie – a BFD!!!

Lastly, but not leastly, we come to the announcement from House of the Dragon’s official Twitter:

Yes, you heard that right, they are BACK, baby, and GRRM is coming with them. The full line up includes, in no particular order:

Paddy Considine – King Viserys I Targaryen
Matt Smith
– Prince Daemon Targaryen
Olivia Cooke – Lady Alicent Hightower
Emma D’Arcy – Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen
Steve Toussaint – Lord Corlys Velaryon (aka “The Sea Snake”)
Eve Best – Princess Rhaenys Velaryon (aka “The Queen who Never Was”)
Fabien Frankel – Ser Criston Cole
Graham McTavish – Ser Harrold Westerling
Milly Alcock – Young Rhaenyra Targaryen
Emily Carey – Young Alicent Hightower
George R. R. Martin – The Reason I’m Writing All This Right Now
Ryan Condal – Co-Creator, Executive Producer, and Showrunner of House of the Dragon
Miguel Sapochnik – Executive Producer and Director of the Pilot and Other Episodes

They will be moderated by one of my own favorite Con of Thrones co-panelists, Jason Concepcion, whom I’m sure will do an outstanding job. Moreover, Comic-Con 2022 will include an immersive King’s Landing experience:

All in all, sounds like a great time. And that’s the news! What do you make of all of it? Sound off in the comments below.

55 Comments

  1. David Rosenblatt: I will have an “I Miss Jorah More” off any day.

    WE COULD MAKE A CLUB!!! 😃

    Truly though, it really is all down to Iain Glen. He has that ability to say so much without saying a word (but boy do we like it when he says words.) And what a glow-up from the book character.

    *stares off into space*

    So uh…yes, great to see the HOtD cast and Comic-Con in general back into the swing of things!

    I love how at one point in that article with Emilia, they described her eyebrows as raising diagonally upwards, or something to that effect, and I just laughed because I pictured it so clearly in my mind. She’s a lovely person.

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  2. I thought I feel never feel this sort of “new GoT season is coming soon” type of excitement.

    This site felt dead, but now it is alive again, slowly but inevitably.

    I think having more than 3 years since the original show ended is good. People are nostalgic, they want more GoT and no show could feel the whole Game of Thrones left behind.

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  3. Pigeon,

    So a few years ago I was doing busywork with the TV on in the background. I wasn’t paying much attention to the movie that was on.
    (I may have tuned in because Noah Taylor (GoT’s Locke) was in it.)

    Anyway, in the movie Lara Croft* is going to meet up with an antiquities expert about an artifact or something. During the following scene, I was distracted by the appearance of an impossibly handsome man (at 0:53):

    https://youtu.be/wwnxf72dYRk

    It wasn’t until he sat down and started talking in that mellifluous voice that it registered with me:

    Holy sh*t! That’s Jorah F*cking Mormont!

    And then (at 2:20), as he was examining a photograph of an old clock, he looked up at Lara and said:

    I think I’ve never seen anything quite so beautiful that I know so little about.”

    I don’t know how many other actors could have sold that line and pulled off that double entendre.

    * P.S. The movie was “Lara Croft: Tomb Raider” (2001).

    #IMissJorahToo 🧸

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  4. Ten Bears:
    Pigeon,

    So a few years ago I was doing busywork with the TV on in the background. I wasn’t paying much attention to the movie that was on.
    (I may have tuned in because Noah Taylor (GoT’s Locke) was in it.)

    Anyway, in the movie Lara Croft* is going to meet up with an antiquities expert about an artifact or something. During the following scene, I was distracted by the appearance of an impossibly handsome man (at 0:53):

    https://youtu.be/wwnxf72dYRk

    It wasn’t until he sat down and started talking in that mellifluous voice that it registered with me:

    Holy sh*t! That’s Jorah F*cking Mormont!

    And then (at 2:20), as he was examining a photograph of an old clock, he looked up at Lara and said:

    I think I’ve never seen anything quite so beautiful that I know so little about.”

    I don’t know how many other actors could have sold that line and pulled off that double entendre.

    *P.S. The movie was “Lara Croft: Tomb Raider” (2001).

    #IMissJorahToo 🧸

    I mean, those movies just had really, really ridiculously good looking people. I don’t even remember much of what happened in any of them, mainly because I was staring at her, him, Daniel Craig….and wishing I had the bungee cord twirly acrobatic thingies in my house.

    I didn’t remember him having such dark hair! 😍

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  5. Pigeon,

    Iain Glen/Jorah Mormont Appreciation Subthread (cont.)

    Here is another clip of Iain Glen from Lara Croft: Tomb Raider (2001): “Lara’s Agreement with Powell” [3:42 long video]

    https://youtu.be/o721MOfEsHc

    I don’t know what they are talking about here (something about a Flux Capacitor, Horcrux, or “Triangle”?). I just thought it showcased Iain Glen’s seductive voice.

    Next Up: Comment about Jorah Mormont – Jon Snow Longclaw scene.
    🧸🗡☃️

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  6. Ten Bears:
    Pigeon,

    Iain Glen/Jorah Mormont Appreciation Subthread (cont.)

    Here is another clip of Iain Glen from Lara Croft: Tomb Raider (2001): “Lara’s Agreement with Powell” [3:42 long video]

    https://youtu.be/o721MOfEsHc

    I don’t know what they are talking about here (something about a Flux Capacitor, Horcrux, or “Triangle”?). Ijust thought it showcased Iain Glen’s seductive voice.

    Next Up: Comment about Jorah Mormont – Jon Snow Longclaw scene.🧸🗡☃️

    Sigh.

    I remember seeing the casting for Jorah, and blinking about 50 times before doing that Scooby-Doo shocked face. He couldn’t be more different from the ugly, hirsute Jorah of the books. Wise move, guys. Wise move.

    That little group of “Let’s go get ourselves in deep sh*t north of the wall was pretty much an exercise of not knowing who to pay attention to for me. Just so many of my favourite characters. I always said that when Jorah and Beric spoke to each other, I’m surprised the wall didn’t just give up and melt. I can’t remember the song, but that behind the scenes clip of Iain, Richard, and Rory (maybe one more?) singing somewhat deliriously by the trailers was priceless.

    I miss looking forward to/simultaneously dreading the next episode.

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  7. From 1991, Iain Glen in an adaptation of George Eliot’s ‘Adam Bede’. https://youtu.be/freqMzlPhP4

    The channel from which I’ve taken the video is a veritable trove of Ian Glen clips though most of them are shorter than the one I’ve linked.

    Welcome back, Ten Bears.

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  8. Pigeon,

    Ten Bears, that was a general welcome back. I didn’t mean to infer you were particularly an Ian Glen fanboi. I thought some of the ladies might be interested to know there’s a channel where features (or perhaps featurettes would be more accurate) from his back catalogue can be seen.

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  9. Dame of Mercia,

    Oh, thank you for the “general welcome back”! And welcome back to you too!

    I didn’t construe your greeting to mean that I am an Iain Glen fanboy, though I confess that I am.* Also, thank you for that link. You wrote: ”I thought some of the ladies might be interested to know there’s a channel where features (or perhaps featurettes would be more accurate) from his back catalogue can be seen.” Obviously, some of the gentlemen are also interested to know there is such a channel. 😎

    * While it’s no secret that I felt Game of Thrones should’ve been the TV version of “A Song of Arya and Sandor” thanks to Rory McCann and Maisie Williams, I was a big fan of show! Jorah Mormont/Iain Glen and show! Beric Dondarrion/Richard Dormer.

    I had anticipated that sometime after the conclusion of the show, there might be Watchers on the Wall Awards for all eight seasons. I was going to suggest a new category for “Best Voice.” My nominees:

    Best Voice (Men):
    • Iain Glen as Jorah Mormont
    • Richard Dormer as Beric Dondarrion
    • Michael McElhatton as Roose Bolton
    • Stephen Dillane as Stannis Baratheon, The One True King
    • Charles Dance as Tywin Lannister
    • Tom Walschiha as Jaqen H’ghar
    • Honorary Mention: Roy Dotrice as Pyromancer Hallyne [fabulous voice actor, ASOIAF audio books narrator, and master of accents e.g., in the movie “The Cutting Edge.” Though brief, I enjoyed his appearance in S2 of GoT in the scene with Tyrion and Bronn discussing the history and properties of wildfire.]
    • Honorary Mention: Burn Gorman as Karl “the fooking legend of Gin Alley” Tanner
    • Honorary Mention: Gary Oliver as Braavosi-bound ship captain Ternesio Terys (S4e10 final scene with Arya).

    Best Voice (Women):
    • Diana Rigg as Olenna Tyrell, Queen of Thorns
    • Lena Headey as Queen Cersei Lannister
    • Natalie Dormer as Queen Margaery (Tyrell)
    • Essie Davis as Lady Crane [I thought her evolving interpretations of Faux Cersei in the Braavos play scene, from grief-stricken to angry, were well done – as were her empathetic interaction with Mercy aka Arya. Plus, I always appreciate actors – usually those with stage backgrounds – who enunciate their words so I don’t have to rely on closed captioning or rewinding to understand what they were saying.]
    • Carice van Houten as Melisandre
    • Rose Leslie as Ygritte. [Maybe I’m biased. I loved the scenes of Ygritte taunting Jon Snow, and admired how Rose Leslie affected a cockney(?) accent to play Ygritte – without garbling her diction.]
    • Honorary Mention: Ania Bukstein as Kinvara. [She would have been a top tier nominee in my book had she appeared in more than one scene in one episode. I was disappointed that Kinvara was a one-and-done character. 😡]
    • Honorary Mention: Birgitte Hjort Sorensen as Karsi. Because Karsi! [She’d also be my top nominee for Best Guest Actress. Sorry, Bella Ramsey…]
    • Honorary Mention: Hannah Waddingham as Septa Unella. [I couldn’t omit her after watching her Emmy Award winning performance as Rebecca in “Ted Lasso.”]

    I’m sure I’ve overlooked some great voice actors in the show. To anyone who feels I missed someone: Please feel free to remind me of anyone I missed.

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  10. Pigeon,

    That little group of “Let’s go get ourselves in deep sh*t north of the wall was pretty much an exercise of not knowing who to pay attention to for me. Just so many of my favourite characters. I always said that when Jorah and Beric spoke to each other, I’m surprised the wall didn’t just give up and melt…”

    Aside from the dubious logic of the Wight Hunt plan, I too enjoyed some of the banter between the characters during their walk (except for the tired and juvenile “c*ck/dick” nonsense between Sandor and Tormund).

    Anytime you can get Jorah and Beric speaking in the same scene is screentime well-spent.

    ”I always said that when Jorah and Beric spoke to each other, I’m surprised the wall didn’t just give up and melt.”

    I concur. Also, Jorah and Beric reciting a poem together (like Jorah & Tyrion reciting “The Doom” poem sailing past Old Valyria) would’ve lulled the NK into submission without the need for deus ex dragons to save the encircled gaggle of morons from certain death by hypothermia or by getting ripped to shreds by zombies.

    The Alternating Voices of Jorah + Beric in NK’s direction would have been a better strategy than a dozen or so lightly armed guys on foot venturing north of the Wall to capture one Wight out of 100,000 to bring back to KL for a show and tell presentation. (For that matter, equipping Sandor with dragonglass-spiked baseballs to throw at NK would’ve been better than wasting his major league talent on tossing rocks at wights out of boredom. But I digress…)

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  11. I haven’t watched ‘Stranger Things’. I’ve tended to think of it as a programme for the young ‘uns but it’s been brought to my attention recently because of there being a resurgence in interest in Kate Bush’s music due in no small part to one of her songs being used in the show. Now I don’t want to wander off topic too much but the GoT connection is that I’ve heard that the actor who played Jaqen is in the current season of ST so maybe I should at least dip into it.

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  12. Dame of Mercia:
    I haven’t watched ‘Stranger Things’. I’ve tended to think of it as a programme for the young ‘uns but it’s been brought to my attention recently because of there being a resurgence in interest in Kate Bush’s music due in no small part to one of her songs being used in the show. Now I don’t want to wander off topic too much but the GoT connection is that I’ve heard that the actor who played Jaqen is in the current season of ST so maybe I should at least dip into it.

    In connection with a yet-to-be posted Comment listing the reasons for my apprehension about watching HotD until after the series finishes airing, I was going to mention that there are over fifteen shows totaling hundreds of hours on my “To Watch List” that I’ve never seen. Many of those shows have ended their runs, with a consensus that they “stuck the landing,” i.e., they had satisfying conclusions. Other shows are still airing, but I’m reluctant to begin watching until I can be sure they aren’t abruptly canceled, or don’t fizzle out in their final seasons. (That has happened all too frequently.)

    “Stranger Things” is on my “To Watch List.” I understand that Season 4 just concluded, and it’s supposed to wrap up in Season 5. I’ve heard good things about it, but have avoided “spoilers” so I don’t ruin the experience if it turns out that it was good from start to finish.
    (In addition to the substantial investment of time, I am now kind of reluctant to take chances on shows that everyone is raving about – only to discover later that the show not only failed to stick the landing, but crashed and burned on the runway.)

    However, I am intrigued by “Stranger Things” – and you may be too – because I’ve heard it
    is either set in the 1980’s or evokes 1980’s nostalgia, including its judicious use of mood-appropriate popular songs from the 70’s and 80’s.

    In particular (and as you alluded to), I read that a Kate Bush song from 1985, “Running Up That Hill,” used in the final episode of Stranger Things Season 4, recently reached #1 on the charts – over 35 years after its release. Apparently, it was played during, and amplified the emotion, of one of the concluding scenes in the episode. I wouldn’t know….

    In case you’re interested, I came across a YouTube video about this. I saved the link but haven’t watched it yet.

    Possible Spoiler Alert!
    It’s titled:

    Kate Bush & Stranger Things Just Made the Impossible Happen” [Rick Beato, YouTube July 6, 2022], and discusses how Kate Bush’s 1985 hit, “Running Up That Hill,” became a #1 song nearly 40 years after its release due to the song’s appearance in Netflix’s “Stranger Things” Season 4.”

    https://youtu.be/pwZysZPIrYI

    I’m not familiar with Kate Bush’s songs. Perhaps I should take a trip down that rabbit hole…

    Out of curiosity, I’ve also looked up the soundtracks of the first four seasons’ episodes. There are lots of songs I recognize and some that I don’t. If the show ends its run without nosediving, I’ll be interested to see how the showrunners or writers used these songs to set the mood or enhance it.

    [GoT was fortunate to have Ramin Djawadi to compose its original soundtrack. For example, I’ve watched the last segment of S4e10 “The Children” several times – with and without the volume turned on – and it’s impressive how much his rousing composition, also titled “The Children,” enhanced what I was watching on screen. I think I’ve said the same thing about Jon’s King in the North coronation scene in S6, and many other commenters have complimented “The Light of the Seven” (?) that accompanied the buildup to Cersei’s wildfire Septapalooza.]

    P.S. I didn’t realize Jaqen H’ghar is in “Stranger Things.”
    Anyway, if you decide to “dip into” the show, please let me know if you like it.

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  13. Dame of Mercia,

    A version of Adam Bede with Iain Fookin’ Glen in the title role?!? (Now I know I’m on the wrong side of the Atl- er, Great North Sea!) Thank you, thank you, thank you! I *will* find a way to watch that! (Adam Bede was the book I absolutely loved to hate in college — great artistic style, horribly misused to deliver Luddite propaganda.) Also, judging from the photographs, Patsy Kinset absolutely nails it as Hetty Poyser, the author’s anti-avitar.

    Dame of Mercia,

    “…I’ve heard that the actor who played Jaqen is in the current season of ST…”

    Tom Wlaschiha, very much in the flesh — but recognizable only by his voice! — is indeed in Season 4 of Stranger Things, and comes as a welcome addition to an already-strong ensemble cast. It’s hard to think of a greater contrast between this role and Jaqen, and yet he becomes the character in each case.

    Ten Bears,

    Stranger Things is very much set in, and an ode to, the 1980s. The creators were born during this time, and they absolutely love it. Each episode abounds with ’80s pop-cultural references, some obvious and relevant, some obscure “Easter eggs,” but there’s no need for the viewer to know any of this to enjoy the story. As we all know from Game of Thrones, it ain’t over ’til it’s over, but the first four seasons have been reliably solid.

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  14. Ten Bears,

    I would watch Strangers Things asap just to avoid the spoilers. I haven’t seen season 4 yet and I’ve already stumbled upon a couple spoilers. A lot of articles put spoilers in the headline, so you don’t even have to click on the article(s) to get spoiled.

    I just hope the show doesn’t end with Eleven burning them all and then have some turd take over in her place.

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  15. Ten Bears,

    Although brief and in Valarian, an Honorary Mention could go to Nick Boulton who portrayed the announcer in the fighting arena in Mereen.
    Season 5.9 The Dance of Dragons

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  16. Mr Derp,

    I wouldn’t worry about that. The Duffer brothers have shown they’re unprepared to take any sort of risk. Even though D&D pulled off Daenerys burning down King’s Landing perfectly, I doubt the Duffers would be able to do the same with Eleven anyway.

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  17. Tensor the Mage,

    Patsy Kensit is actually a blonde but wore a wig for the role in ‘Adam Bede’. I first came across a radio reading of ‘Adam Bede’ when I was in my teens (if I recall correctly read by actor Gabriel Woolf – now there’s a great vocal presence, in his 80s and still working and he played Sutekh in ‘Dr Who’ in 1975). The Luddite content passed me by when I was in my teens though.

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  18. I don’t want to become that old coot who derails the thread with Iain Glen connections but some years ago there was a British series ‘Prisoners’ Wives’ where Iain Glen played a gangster type who was in prison and David Bradley (Walder Frey) played his father-in-law. The wife/daughter was played by Polly Walker but she’s not in the clip. Also not in the clip but playing another prisoner was Enzo Cilenti who played Yezzan. https://youtu.be/pGdLdZQ9PJ0

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  19. Dame of Mercia,

    “I don’t want to become that old coot who derails the thread with Iain Glen connections …”

    First, we here would never mention a lady’s age, and second, I cannot imagine anyone here having a problem with more content concerning Iain Glen. 🙂

    Dame of Mercia,

    “The Luddite content passed me by when I was in my teens though.”

    Eliot intensely romanticizes The English Countryside, to the point of constantly heaping abuse upon poor orphan Hetty for wanting more out of life than arising before dawn every day to work in a cold, damp, and thoroughly well-manured barnyard. (That this was written by an author who was herself living a privileged life of culture in London just adds to the insult.) I studied engineering, specifically mechanical engineering, and I knew perfectly well those workers had walked off those fields and into those factories faster than the factories could take them.

    Ten Bears,

    ‘I’ve watched the last segment of S4e10 “The Children” several times – with and without the volume turned on – and it’s impressive how much his rousing composition, also titled “The Children,” enhanced what I was watching on screen.’

    The entire sequence, starting with Tyrion’s long-overdue patricide of his cruel father, where we start by hearing an interpolation from The Rains of Castamere, through to Arya’s departure for Braavos, and all the way to the end of the credits, makes for an amazing cinematic experience. I have listened to it dozens of times, including right now, and I always hear something I hadn’t noticed on previous audits. To my delight, and completely satisfying what I had barely dared hope to hear, he employed many of the same elements and themes into the music over the series finale, as we see the story’s children, now fully grown, departing on their various adventures. The man is truly a Maestro.

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  20. Dame of Mercia,

    ”I don’t want to become that old coot who derails the thread with Iain Glen connections but some years ago there was a British series ‘Prisoners’ Wives’ where Iain Glen played a gangster type who was in prison…”

    For a second there I thought you were referring to a movie where Iain Glen played a gangster type who was in prison: “Kick-Ass 2” (2013).

    Here’s a clip from that movie in which his nephew visits him in prison. (Iain Glen does a pretty good job playing a mob boss. His American accent isn’t too bad either.)

    https://youtu.be/XNQvcBhQbzU

    I think “Kick-Ass 2” is in HBO’s lineup this coming week in case you’re curious.

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  21. Mr Derp:
    Ten Bears,

    I just hope the show doesn’t end with Eleven burning them all and then have some turd take over in her place.

    They are not brave enough to do that, but Eleven being the final villain would’ve been great ending for Stranger Things.

    Instead we will get their version of The Night King.

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  22. Tensor the Mage,

    I have mostly enjoyed George Eliot’s novels though I thought ‘Felix Holt the Radical’ was clunky and I was disappointed that Daniel Derondah married Mirah.

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  23. mau,

    I really like Stranger Things, but with it playing it safe every season, I can’t consider it one of my all time favorite shows. It’s too predictable.

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  24. Lee:
    Basically some of us want Emelia Clark back with John Snow. They are the main people.

    Nah I love Emilia but Dany’s character followed her arc, she should not come back under any circumstances, same with Bran/Sansa. A spin off with Arya or Jon Snow I could definitely watch though.

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  25. Young Dragon:
    Mr Derp,

    Even though D&D pulled off Daenerys burning down King’s Landing perfectly, I doubt the Duffers would be able to do the same with Eleven anyway.

    Sorry Minister of Propaganda, but I’m currently doing a GOT re-watch and it’s far from perfect to me, but I made my peace with that long ago.

    While I respect D&D for their adaptation, the notion of D&D being risktakers is being a bit overblown. Most of the “subverted expectations” in this show came from GRRM. Ned getting killed, the Red Wedding, Dany burning KL, etc…This is all GRRM.

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  26. Mr Derp,

    Sorry, but it was. Dany’s entire arc was leading to the destruction of King’s Landing. The clues were all there.

    Jury’s still out on whether Daenerys will actually burn down King’s Landing in the books, but that’s besides the point. D&D were under no obligation to follow Martin’s books. The choice to take these risks was theirs. Besides, there were other risks too, like Jaime going back to Cersei, Cersei being sympathetic in the end, Jon not being made king but being forced into exile instead, etc. GOT taking risks is one of the many reasons it’s a superior show to Stranger Things.

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  27. Young Dragon,

    All the things you mention are GRRM’s doing, but even so, “taking risks” isn’t always the best option. Sometimes it is, but not always like you are intimating here.

    Just because you take a risk doesn’t necessarily make it a good one. Jaime going back to Cersei in the end was pathetic and completely destroyed his character, all for the sake of “subverting expectations”.

    Jaime could’ve learned something from Sandor Clegane. Sandor’s brother burned his face and that’s all it took for Sandor to seek uncompromising revenge. Compare that to Tyrion and Jaime, who kept crawling back to Cersei and begged her to be a good person even after all the horrible shit she did.

    Cersei literally tried to have Jaime killed, treated him like feces when he returned to KL after being a prisoner, cheated on him, etc…but hey, at least Jaime “subverted expectations” and crawled back to her like a pathetic dog in the end. That was awesome!

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  28. Mr Derp,

    Taking risks doesn’t always pan out in the end, but even so, I prefer writers who take risks than those that play it safe. Even if the writers fail, I still respect the effort. Luckily, D&D’s risk taking was successful and turned GOT into a phenomenon.

    Ned’s death and the Red Wedding came from Martin, but we don’t know about the other plot points. We probably never will. Like I said, though, it was still D&D’s risk because they chose to include these plot points in the show.

    Jaime’s story was amazing and there was nothing pathetic about it. He knew what Cersei was, but he went back to her anyway because he believed she was the woman he deserved. He was wracked with guilt over all the terrible things he had done so he left Brienne to be with Cersei to punish himself. Jaime’s story was tragic and I applaud D&D for following through with it rather than succumbing to fan service. Jaime’s story ended perfectly because of it.

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  29. Young Dragon: We probably never will. Like I said, though, it was still D&D’s risk because they chose to include these plot points in the show.

    You can’t have the show without these plot points though, so that’s not risky. You’d have a better argument by saying that D&D took a risk by trying to adapt GoT into a tv show to begin with. That’s no easy task and I think that was in fact a big risk.

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  30. Young Dragon: Jaime’s story was amazing and there was nothing pathetic about it. He knew what Cersei was, but he went back to her anyway because he believed she was the woman he deserved. He was wracked with guilt over all the terrible things he had done so he left Brienne to be with Cersei to punish himself.

    I don’t think that’s correct. According to the script itself, Jaime felt like a “traitor” for sleeping with Brienne.

    Jaime left because he couldn’t live with himself knowing that Cersei could potentially die alone. After his fling with Brienne, Jaime fully realized that his loyalties remained with Cersei and there was no way to change that considering his overwhelming feeling as a traitor.

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  31. Mr Derp,

    They could have the show without these plot points, it would have just been different than what we had in the books. I do agree though that taking on such a massive series like ASOIAF was a risk in and of itself.

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  32. Mr Derp,

    I’m not familiar with what the script said, but as far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t matter. All that matters is how it’s presented on the screen.

    “She’s hateful, and so am I.” Before this, Jaime listed all of the terrible things he’s done in Cersei’s name. That doesn’t sound like someone who feels like a traitor. That sounds like someone full of guilt and pain who wishes to punish himself.

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  33. Young Dragon,

    lol, the script doesn’t matter? Sure, I can see why you would say that. The script doesn’t back up your argument, so I would fully expect you to say something like that.

    Jaime DID NOT go to KL expecting to die with Cersei as “punishment”. He was trying to save her.

    In fact, Jaime spent his final hours trying desperately to save Cersei, and their unborn child. Tyrion even got in on the action and hatched a plan to help smuggle Jaime and Cersei to Pentos where they could start a new life together.

    In the end, Jaime couldn’t quit his abusive, inbred relationship. That’s his arc.

    “The script doesn’t matter” LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Even the quotes you used doesn’;t portray punishment. It just shows that Jaime owns how terrible of a person he is.

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  34. Mr Derp,

    Of course what it says on the script doesn’t matter. That isn’t how shows are judged. It never has been. Shows are judged by what’s presented on the screen and what was presented on the screen absolutely supports my argument.

    I never said he went to King’s Landing to die. Like you said, his relationship with Cersei is toxic and abusive. Going back to her rather than stay with a woman who genuinely cares about him is the punishment. And the quotes I used absolutely supports this.

    Jaime’s arc was about becoming a better man, yet not being able to forgive himself for the man he was. It was heartbreaking and was told brilliantly.

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  35. Young Dragon: Of course what it says on the script doesn’t matter. That isn’t how shows are judged. It never has been. Shows are judged by what’s presented on the screen and what was presented on the screen absolutely supports my argument.

    What is presented on screen is based on what was in the script, otherwise there would be no point in having a script to begin with. You can’t keep moving the goalposts like this to support your argument.

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  36. Mr Derp,

    Incorrect. The script shows the writer’s intention, but the writer’s intention isn’t always reflected on the end product. That’s true for a lot of writers, including George RR Martin. I don’t know if you’re a book reader, but Martin created a character called Darkstar who thankfully didn’t make it into the show. He intended for Darkstar to be a cool badass like the Hound, but in reality, Darkstar was lame came with the corniest catchphrase. The intention behind Darkstar didn’t matter, all that mattered was the end result. The same is true for the show. I mean, there’s a reason that critics are given episodes to review and aren’t sent the actual scripts. Like I said, all that matters is what is presented on the screen. That’s how shows are judged. The scripts are immaterial.

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  37. Young Dragon,

    I’ll tell you what. Let’s do as you suggest and just talk about what played out onscreen only. I just went back and watched the scene.

    Jaime does not go back to Cersei as a way to punish himself like you said. He wasn’t resigned to die when he decided to go back. He was obviously going to accept whatever fate came, and he knew the odds weren’t good, but he specifically went back to try and SAVE her. Not die with her. If Jaime truly went back to Cersei as punishment then they wouldn’t have hatched a plan to try and escape. Had the plan worked out, Jaime and Cersei would’ve went to Pentos, I believe, where they could regroup and do more horrible things to other people. That’s not exactly punishment. Jaime WANTS to be with her. He’s getting what he WANTS by being with her. Getting what you want is not a punishment.

    He goes back because he believes that deep down he’s just as horrible of a person as Cersei and they belong together. She’s done horrible things. He’s done horrible things to get back to her. He still felt devoted to her, hence feeling like a “traitor” for not being with her. It seems like common sense to me.

    It sounds to me like you’re painting Jaime’s return to Cersei as more of an altruistic thing, when it seems to me like it’s more out of selfishness stemming from the fact that he simply can’t quit his abusive lover.

    Had they actually escaped KL, what specific punishment would Jaime have faced from Cersei? Sleeping on the couch in their mansion in Pentos?

    He WANTS to be with her. Punishment for Jaime would actually be staying AWAY from Cersei.

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  38. This is from Nikolaj on what Jaime was thinking:

    “You wonder if he’s changed and if he’s escaped the destructive relationship. He’s so bound by this code of honor of family first, and he and Cersei have a strong bond on every level. But he has to go back. She’s all alone. He’s the last one she has. He has to try to save her. It makes sense even though you don’t want it to… It would have been wonderful if he and Brienne could have had a life together. But he says it himself as he’s leaving: ‘Have you ever walked away from a fight?’ I have to do this. The things you do for love…”

    This would appear to support that Jaime did not go back to Cersei as punishment for his past crimes.

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  39. Mr Derp,

    Jaime wanting to punish himself does not mean he wanted to die. I also never claimed he stopped caring for his sister, only that wasn’t his primary reason for going back to her. Your entire argument is undone by the simple fact that Jaime was in tears when he was leaving Brienne. If he was acting out of some selfish desire to get back to the woman he truly loved, he wouldn’t have been crying. No, his heart was breaking as he was leaving Brienne because she was the woman he wanted to be with. He just didn’t feel worthy of her so he went back to the woman he thought he deserved.

    I have no idea where you’re getting the idea that Jaime would continue hurting people. Or that he and Cersei would be living it up in a mansion. Jaime was a changed man and wouldn’t hurt people in Cersei’s name. And also they had a very limited amount of money, if they had money at all, and no means to produce more. Nothing you’re saying is supported by what was presented in the show.

    Jaime living in squalor conditions with a woman who doesn’t truly care for him is punishment.

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  40. Young Dragon: He just didn’t feel worthy of her so he went back to the woman he thought he deserved.

    This might be your interpretation, and that’s fine. Nikolaj’s interpretation, which I agree with, is that he went back to Cersei because he loved her and couldn’t bare to leave her alone in mortal danger and felt like a traitor for leaving her (as the script says), not simply because he “deserved” her and went back to her as punishment. Again, he wouldn’t be trying to save her if he was going there for punishment, but some combination of the two is certainly possible.

    I definitely think there was a feeling within Jaime that he wasn’t “worthy” of Brienne because of the horrible things he’s done, but I think the evidence supports that he ultimately went back to Cersei because he loved her more than anything. “The things we do for love” says it all. Love is dictating Jaime’s actions here.

    Young Dragon: Your entire argument is undone by the simple fact that Jaime was in tears when he was leaving Brienne. If he was acting out of some selfish desire to get back to the woman he truly loved, he wouldn’t have been crying.

    This is just silly. You are allowed to care for two different things at the same time and and still end up making a selfish choice in the end. You haven’t debunked anything in any way whatsoever. I think we just differ on this and that’s ok. You seem to think Jaime’s decision was selfless while I think it was closer to selfish. It’s ok to have different opinions on this.

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  41. Mr Derp,

    I thought it was rather strange how he told Tyrion that he didn’t care about the “citizens of King’s Landing anyway”, apparently forgetting he cared enough to save all their asses from the Mad King. 🤔 But I would rather he have just vanished after knighting Brienne anyway, over the disappointment of what he ended up doing. (I don’t demand things always make sense or go the way I want them, I just hate being disappointed.) 😄

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  42. Young Dragon: Jaime living in squalor conditions with a woman who doesn’t truly care for him is punishment.

    You think Cersei would put up with living in squalor for long? I certainly don’t. Let’s speculate, shall we?

    I bet she’d scheme her way to the top and do hateful things to get there, leaving Jaime with two options; either follow along and do hateful things too, or try and stop her.

    It seems to me like Jaime trying to stop her from doing hateful things would kind of destroy the whole “going back to Cersei because that’s what I deserve” argument. Therefore, he either continues to do hateful things on Cersei’s behalf or he betrays going back to her for “punishment”.

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  43. Mr Derp,

    I disagree. I see no evidence that he went back for Cersei because he wanted to be with her. “She’s hateful and so am I” is evidence that supports my argument.

    Jaime leaving Brienne in tears also supports my argument. If you’re crying as you’re doing something, it usually means you’re doing something you don’t want to do. But if you saw this scene differently, that’s fine, I respect your opinion.

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  44. Pigeon:
    Mr Derp,

    I thought it was rather strange how he told Tyrion that he didn’t care about the “citizens of King’s Landing anyway”, apparently forgetting he cared enough to save all their asses from the Mad King. 🤔 But I would rather he have just vanished after knighting Brienne anyway, over the disappointment of what he ended up doing. (I don’t demand things always make sense or go the way I want them, I just hate being disappointed.) 😄

    Absolutely. I’m not arguing that Jaime going back to Cersei made no sense or anything like that. It made sense. Just don’t ask me to like it or respect Jaime for his choice. It made me lose all the respect that I had for him. All for the sake of “subverting expectations”.

    I recently did a re-watch and I couldn’t believe how many horrible things Cersei did and said to both Tyrion and Jaime throughout the show, yet they continued to try to appeal to her good side until the very end. Some people will say they did everything they could because it was family, but for me, family goes out the window the moment you try to have me killed.

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  45. Mr Derp,

    Cersei was born with wealth, privilege, and power. That was the only reason she was able to rise to power. All of that had been stripped away and she would have been left with nothing. Whether or not Cersei is willing to put up with her new living conditions isn’t the issue. Like I said, she hasn’t the means to reclaim her former lifestyle.

    It doesn’t destroy it at all. Just because Jaime wants to punish himself doesn’t mean he’s willing to let other people suffer. There is no relation between the two.

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  46. Pigeon,

    Jaime was in a very dark place at that point. He was playing the person he saw himself as, not the person he truly was. It’s similar to his scene with Edmure in season 6 when he threatened to kill his child.

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  47. Young Dragon: Cersei was born with wealth, privilege, and power. That was the only reason she was able to rise to power. All of that had been stripped away and she would have been left with nothing. Whether or not Cersei is willing to put up with her new living conditions isn’t the issue. Like I said, she hasn’t the means to reclaim her former lifestyle.

    I mean, Cersei could easily seduce a wealthy man and marry him.

    Young Dragon: It doesn’t destroy it at all. Just because Jaime wants to punish himself doesn’t mean he’s willing to let other people suffer. There is no relation between the two.

    What if Jaime and Cersei survived the destruction of KL? Cersei lives to make other people suffer. It’s what she does. Jaime would have to deal with the same moral dilemma all over again that made him leave Cersei in the first place.

    It sounds like, in your view, Jaime’s punishment is to nag Cersei in perpetuity to stop being bad. What a horrible ending for him.

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  48. Mr Derp,

    In that world, wealthy men don’t typically marry women who are beneath them. Cersei has lost her station and thus her marriage prospects have gone right out the window.

    Cersei’s name and status was what made her dangerous. They are what protected her, what allowed her to perform horrible deeds without fear of repercussions. Without them, she’s not a threat to anyone.

    Jaime’s punishment is to continue to be with someone who doesn’t care for him rather than Brienne. He doesn’t need to nag Cersei. She doesn’t have the option to be bad. She has no power.

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