Well, this news is a bit of an eyebrow-raiser, after all the fretting fans of the A Song of Ice and Fire series have been doing the last few years.
According to Entertainment Weekly, the showrunners of Game of Thrones address the issue of the show passing the books and calm worries about possible spoilers.
“People are talking about whether the books are going to be spoiled – and it’s really not true,” David Benioff says in the new interview. “So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George [R.R. Martin] is either.”
Benioff says that the viewers will be “very surprised,” reading the ASOIAF novels that haven’t been published yet. Currently two more books are expected in the series. But the showrunners assure EW– and fans- that they are “quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.”
Benioff’s co-showrunner D.B. Weiss also talked about the situation. “At a certain point, we realized we were going to outpace the books and we kind of choose to see it as a great thing on both sides – there’s this amazing world George has created and now there are two different versions, and there’s no reason we can see why you can’t be thrilled and surprised and dismayed by both of these different versions of this world.”
For more from the interview, visit Entertainment Weekly.
Hodor!
Eyebrows raised… furrowed.. scrunched… puppy dog head tilt?
Well… here goes something then…
That’s good to hear. Either way, I love the books and the show, so it doesn’t really bother me as I realize they are 2 versions of the same story with the same end game.
My reaction was shock and disappointment. I had to do a double take this wasn’t a parody written by a book purist.
Like I didn’t really think season 6 would spoil that much, since it’s partly going back to some AFFC plotlines, and it’s not like future books actually exist at this point, but wow, if I was a book purist who hated the show (which I’m not) I couldn’t have written better dialogue for Benioff and Weiss.
I like what I’ve read, I think!
But they are doing ToJ this season…and Jon Snow aftermath…
I’m not convinced… Yes, they diverge from the books a lot, but at the same time George would have told D&D big things that he’s planning for TWoW and ADoS and they’re bound to incorporate them into the show in some capacity. Plus there’s the fact that they seem to be going back to the previous books and covering stuff that they omitted in previous seasons – Kingsmoot, Riverlands, Arya’s plot isn’t finished yet, Varys and Kevan etc.
Well, this thread will escalate quickly!
So, I’m going to use my actual name now. I’d just figured someone already was but it’s been a few years and I don’t think so, right? (I chose a name I knew no one would use. Formerly, Gatehouse Ami)
How about the Jon Snow cliffhanger? Surely thats a big spoiler
Even though they deny it in one sentence, in the next one they pretty much confirm the show will spoil stuff (key moments, no less) from TWOW and beyond… it’s just that we won’t know what comes from the books directly, what it’s inspired by them, and what’s wholly invented by D&D, Cogman and Hill.
What the fuck?
That’s great news. I like to view the show and the books as two seperate stories, just with the same base.
No way that’s gonna happen. They’ve ran out book material for Jon and Dany in the books for example. We know Dany is getting a huge khalasar in the next season and book and Jon will be ressurrected in both. GRRM himself said “Given where we are, inevitably, there will be certain plot twists and reveals in season six of GAME OF THRONES that have not yet happened in the books.”. I don’t really believe in them. Some part will diverge but you can’t do that with all.
I don’t understand this statement at all to be honest. It’s very bizarre. They and George both have already stated on record it will spoil things from the books. They outright told us a George told them Shireen will burn. So…yeah. I have no idea what to make of this statement other than it’s very bizarre.
I think this is just damage control for GRRM.
They really don’t understand what they have done to themselves with this statement. Now every time something bad happens in the show book purist will go mad.
This is awesome in theory, but frightening as well. My fear is that this turns into another Fullmetal Alchemist, which diverged from the source material and had a DRASTICALLY different ending than the manga. They too were creating a TV show before the source material was complete, so they decided to just make the rest up.
Here’s hoping we won’t have to have a “Game of Thrones: Brotherhood” real ending a few years after George finishes the series. I just wish David & Dan end the series in a way that makes sense given all of the buildup George gave them. It would be too easy for them to just make this show the fanfic version of what fans wish George had written. (Cleganebowl and R+L=J come to mind. What if the TV show puts these in simply because they’re fan favorite theories, but George had other plans?)
But…..I want to be spoiled lol. I love spoilers. They have buildup from George that they inserted in the previous seasons. Are they going to change that?
I hope they don’t change:
Regardless of the actual truth, it’s not like they are going to say the opposite right now, 30 days before the start of the season, and further encourage those who don’t want to be spoiled by the show to not watch this season until TWOW is out, thus harming ratings.
So this is a pretty predictable bunch of statements from them.
Well they really put all their chips on the table with this one. If the show falls off a cliff now (which I would doubt), this entire strange interview will come back to haunt them. And quite frankly, they won’t be able to spin away from it either, especially given Benioff’s words in this interview. This is a very strange move by them that I do not understand.
Jordan,
I couldn’t agree more!! I am shocked and disappointed!! And hope that D&D don’t f*** anything up!!!! Now I’m worried!!?
I think that the show and the books will end in more or less the same way, though. As D&D said a couple years ago, it’s like two different routes to the same place.
Also I think Season 5 was better than books 4 and 5 (it wasn’t boring as fuck). So I’m not too concerned so long as we don’t get a ‘bad poosy’ line again.
Some already commented on the contradiction in this EW report. I do not think ‘key elements’ and ‘not spoiling’ go together very well. What I gather is that they won’t say which parts of the show will be in the books as well. I assume it concerns big plot moments and character deaths (of the main cast). So yes, things will get spoiled, but of course many things will be different too. I don’t think anybody expected otherwise.
Flayed Potatoes,
You said it!!!!!!!!
There will be only one ending anyway.
Ross Doherty,
Yeah, I didn’t really take their comments as the show literally won’t spoil points from the books. I took them saying that you won’t really be being spoiled, as no one will know what’s from the books or what is original. Which has already happened, as people argued over whether Stannis’ season 5 arc was book material or not. So it’s still going to be surprising in the books.
Everyone can chill k think that skimmed this and took it to mean that D&D are changing everything from the books.
I really dont know what to think of it. I see positive and negative sides. But more negatives.
Its a little bizarre they said that, like we are watching a filler or a fanfic. Its at least strange.
I personally dont know if we will have jon vs ramsay in the books.
I just hope they said that as a lie to dont lose the book readers to watch the show.
I’m now almost certain that at some point in the last year or two they actually made an official decision and entered an agreement with George for the stories to diverge completely.
I’d say I’m disappointed, I’d say I’m offended, but really, neither comes even close. If this is true, it is a complete cop-out. And it is ridiculous if they imagine it won’t cause a gigantic uproar.
It’s one thing for the stories to diverge naturally as a result of adaptation to a different medium but this is something else entirely.
So what’s the point of doing TOJ if they won’t spoil Jon’s parentage?
Yeah this is really strange.
“So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George [R.R. Martin] is either.” Nah. They are actually admitting they will spoil the books. They just can’t go much further in every storyline because they don’t have the time for it on tv. So GRRM will just have much more details on his books of course.
They’ve regularly said in the past that they’re doing GRRM’s ending, which they seem to reiterate here with the talk about “key elements”, so what it would seem to come down to is that between plot/character elision and the fact that the books aren’t finished, the mechanics of the story will be very different. That’s something anybody could already have assumed (particularly in respect of the final book, which he hasn’t even started writing yet), and when people tended to worry about being spoiled it’s those broad strokes that they worry about.
It sounds like the deviations between books 1-5 and Seasons 1-5 will continue in the future. No LSH, Sansa’s marriage to Ramsey, Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, Jon at Hardhome, etc. etc.
I doubt very much that they worry about those book purists who complain about every little deviation from the story they have imagined in their heads. Their show is huge, it’s slowly drawing near to its end, and it will be a legacy they will be proud of.
Armsbendback,
Let me be very clear about one thing – Nothing they say will impact the ratings within any decimal point. People who love the show will watch it. People who love the books and say they have always loved the books more than the show, but have always watched the show anyway will watch it. People who claim to hate the show and have continued to watch the show so they can complain about it will watch it. People who insist they will stop watching the show for now because they don’t want to be spoiled beyond the books will see one single potential spoiler on Facebook, Twitter, and/or literally any other part of the Internet, be upset than they saw it, and quit going on the Internet until GRRM publishes The Winds of Winter. Oh wait – I’m lying. They will then watch the show.
Literally anything they say will have zero impact on the ratings this year, which will also be impacted by a .000000001% margin by people who truly feel they will not watch the show because the next book is not yet out. You know – all 8 of those people.
Not surprising, they are hacks.
I’ve seen better fanfiction at westeros.org forums circa 2009.
It could just mean they consolidated storylines this next season in such a way that they really diverge from Winds to a point they are unrecognizable.
Ex:
I wouldn’t worry about taking this too seriously. They did say KEY elements will remain. As long as they kill Ramsay in both mediums I’m all good.
Jack Bauer 24,
Seriously.
But Tower of Joy? Are they changing the baby’s identity? Adding twins? That’s one of the central mysteries of the series….I am worried. Or do they consider R+L=J canon already and more of a formality than a spoiler? I hope they don’t mess this up.
Do you realise you are a living breathing stereotype?
Sean Boyle,
Except the first Full Metal Alchemist anime was vastly better than FMA Brotherhood :p
As a non book reader (for now) and pure unsullied, this worries me in one way and one way only – JON lol. I know the books goes into great detail regarding the Lord of Light, R’hllor, the prince that was promised, and the show does not, so they might skip that part in the show and get to the same end in a different way? I dunno. I probably don’t make sense.
However, I have faith in D&D and that whatever they have written out/ done with season 6 is going to be amazing (I just want Jon back)
I loved season 5 and apparently it was way off the books.. so that’s a good indication 🙂
Not too happy about this, although I did expect it. The first few seasons are a book adaption and the later seasons are not. It’s not too bad, but I’d rather have the show spoil the books and still have a sort of faithful adaption.
Of course people will now scream at me with prejudices, shouting that I’m a book purist, because 80% of the people are like that here.
Aryamad,
yess
Jack Bauer 24,
LOL, that’s funny. We had ToJ in AGoT. I am sure that we spoiled ourselves already reading that scene, no?! Bookreaders and showwatchers getting the same scene, and drawing the same conclusion can hardly be called spoiler.
As long as Season 6 is awesome I don’t care but if it’s a disappointment people will hate D&D even more.
JP Dayne,
I agree. If Dorne wasn’t proof enough.
TFT,
I won’t scream at you lol. I totally agree.
By making this statement they’re inadvertently supporting countless “D&D are writing fanfiction!!!” purist posts from here until the end of the show. It might have been smarter strategy to just let things play out and keep people guessing. Oh well.
Jack Bauer 24,
Well, maybe the popular theory is not going to wind up correct in the books, but will be correct on the show. It’s obvious it’s correct on the show. They’ve only hinted at one thing. I think it’s true in the books too, but I don’t know what to think anymore when I see them make a statement like this.
Well, I was a show watcher before being a books reader, and I didn’t think it spoiled the books for me, not even at the beginning.
It’s definitely not going to spoil the future ones now that they diverged so much.
Sunfyre,
Exactly…they should kept this secret. I guess they’re really confident with how Season 6 will turn out ?
They are saying the truth, they can’t adapt a book that nobody wrote.
“Key elements”, GRRM told them this character does this, this one that..no how they do it, so they had to write dialogues and scenes that don’t exist in order to make the character do what he will do in the books.
The people who want to read GRRM story should wait for the book to come out, not come here and be annoying because we like the show and we will learn certain spoilers.
Important distinction:
They said that the books aren’t going to be spoiled (ruined, worthless) now that the show has surpassed them.
They didn’t say that the show wouldn’t have book spoilers.
Flayed Potatoes,
To you, and
TFT, just curious, not attacking or anything, I haven’t read the books but I did hear that GRRM said that the show is NOT the books, they are and will be different, something to that effect, didn’t he?
Honestly what D&D said in this interview is pretty much what GRRM said in his New Year’s post about the show spoiling some parts of the books but also not. Only George worded it much better.
“So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George [R.R. Martin] is either.”
Isn’t this essentially a different wording of what they’ve said before? That they’re sticking to the major plot points but doing it in a different way? Mother’s Mercy as an episode is a perfect indication of this.
I’m not sure why this statement was necessary, however, perhaps it was (as one user above suggested) done to keep book readers around for viewership
Dorne wasn’t that great in the books either imo, although I am a Show! Dorne supporter.
I still maintain and believe the show and the books are, in the end, going to be two tellings of the same broad story
Both D&D and GRRM have said so
Yes, Dorne alone is enough to prove that D and D are hacks. Never mind all the other show plotlines and scenes that were much more successful.
It’s genuinely bizzare to me that people who watch and very much enjoy a show for years can somehow also believe the people writing that show have no talent. I’ve seen people give anyone else involved in the show credit before they’ll give Benioff and Weiss any.
Also, the point about the endgame diverting is basically moot. GRRM is pretty damn unlikely to ever finish this series. The Winds of Winter? Sure, I’m sure that will be released in a few more years. Books 7, 8 and 9 though?
To be fair the books will never be finished anyway, so it’s not like they can spoil much anyway, some of TWOW I guess.
The books don’t exist and prolly never will. So of course they won’t be spoiling anythng.
I think they are basically throwing GRRM a bone here. This sounds like the key message he wants to convey more than anything. I don’t buy that it’s actually true, certainly in terms of the major plot points / character fates.
I’m a little unsure what to think about this. It could be good… but it could also be very bad. Sometimes when they’ve strayed from the books it was a resounding success, as is the case with Hardhome. Other times though it fell flat on its face, like with Dorne.
Of course, since they have no books to really stray from now I guess they have no choice but to sail into uncharted waters. I hope it works out.
Uh, I believe the purpose of them saying this was to provide us with some type of comfort, but it has us scratching our heads instead. I always viewed the books & show as two separate entities, to avoid any internal conflicts. But this statement doesn’t provide me with the reassurance they were aiming for.
Come on George, godspeed!
D&D just did this to give the books a little more press. Maybe this is a sign that WoW will be forthcoming immediately after S6?
George says right here, on March 11th, there will be spoilers http://grrm.livejournal.com/477725.html
“There will be spoilers.
If I had finished WINDS as planned…
I did not, however.”
It is what it is.
Sure. Why not. You know which was the less faithful episode of season five, the one which had fewer elements from the books? Hardhome, the most praised episode of the season, even by book readers, and considered one of the best if not the best episode of the whole show. Only its scenes with Cersei in prison and Arya getting a mission are directly based on anything from the books; Tyrion meeting Dany, the whole Hardhome setpiece —all made-up for the show.
Jeebus. Of *course* they’re going to be spoiling the books. Sure, some things will diverge, but if the planned ending involves some kind of, say, epic battle of dragons and White Walkers, it’s not going to end with everyone deciding suddenly to commit ritual hari-kari by jumping out of the Moon Door in the Eyrie. If the rumors of, say, Jon Snow’s parentage are true, they’re not going to change it to, “Well, that doesn’t matter,” and do some opposite like thing. It may be that certain scenes/moments/characters won’t be changed/spoiled – D&D certainly didn’t spoil Strong Belwas for anyone who got to the books later – but they will ultimately arrive at a similar destination.
You could believe that, but it would almost entirely unsupported, and rather silly.
Also, as with all these things, there will be no gigantic uproar. A couple of thousand book readers on the internet, is not a gigantic uproar. And I’m being reeeeaaaal generous there.
Ross,
Except GRRM has stated more than once and very recently on his blog that season 6 will spoil things. So that makes this all the more strange because I don’t think this is them throwing GRRM a bone at all. That wouldn’t make any sense given his own statements of the season spoiling things. It’s all very bizarre to me.
Oh no the show won’t be a verbatim copy of the books like Watchmen who was copied scene from scene from novel and that’s why it failed and no one who read the graphic novel cared for it,get over it you pathetic fucking nerds !
mau,
Why do you care about what book purists think.if you like the show then like it,don’t listen to the sheep .
Martin is my bitch,
Woah, violation bruh. I’m pretty sure Noone wants the show to spoil the books. Your hammer missed the nail entirely and you wound up crushing your finger
Deesensfan,
The problem is that they’ve already laid out a foundation in the previous seasons based on the material they’ve adapted and George has provided. There are certain mysteries and foreshadowing that have to be revealed sooner or later and will spoil what happens in the books anyway. Are they going to undo all that build up? This is my main issue.
There’s also the issue of character development and how the events that unfold affect them. If they’re going to make a character do a certain thing that doesn’t happen, that thing ought to make sense based on what we’ve seen of that character so far. For example, it would be silly to randomly have Sansa swinging swords like Arya because that’s not the type of character she is. I’m not saying she’s going to do that, but it’s a random example. Or if they decide to send another character in a different geographical area he’s not supposed to be in (Jamie in Dorne is a good example, and even many show-only fans hated that story arc because the things that happened there didn’t make sense).
The changes have to make sense for the character and story as a whole. And the main characters should at least have faithful endings. I doubt everyone cares what Hot Pie does with his life. He’s not Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran, and so on. If that makes sense.
You people worry to much, just enjoy the ride.
Major plot points will be the same, and their going to the same destination. they might be taking different roads to get there, but the goal is the same.
Greatjon of Slumber,
People just don’t think when it comes to these things. They said key things will stay the same, and then people are panicking that they won’t reveal R+L = J! Goddamnit folks.
Matthew The Dragon Knight,
+1
D&D probably mean that the exact mapping, the smaller strokes, won’t be the same
They are still telling GRRMs story, and they (and GRRM very recently on his blog) have stated the show and the books are working towards the same ending, maybe in very different ways.
And of course the small strokes will be very different, GRRM himself only knows the ending in its broad strokes.
Tyrion is set to meet Dany in the books as well, except it’s taking George forever to move along (very annoying).
Sometimes they have moments of genius (Hardhome), but sometimes they fall flat on their face (Dorne). It can be hit or miss.
The nasty bits,
Judging by some people here,it appears quite a few do,maybe you live in some alternate universe that i’m not aware of ?
Yeah he says it right here in the comments http://grrm.livejournal.com/477725.html
All the spoilers, please. ADOS is just that…a dream lmao.
TOM,
Reverse psychology is what it looks to me.
Flayed Potatoes,
Dorne was a last minute hack job, that even listening to the season 5 commentary, they never even planned on having (even when filming season 4), until Cogman gave them the idea of bringing Jaime there.
And even then, it was obvious that is was merely rushed and thrown in there where they had free time, it wasn’t a big plot thread they have been working on for years developing..
Flayed Potatoes,
One could say the same about George, but he’s rarely called a hack.
Though actually, I’m going to say he IS a hack. But that’s not because of his writing, but because of his lack of writing and constant merchandising.
This exactly.
However, I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to stop reading statements from show runners and actors (and not just for GOT). It just frustrates me.
Cogman just responded!
https://twitter.com/b_cogman/status/712695419185172480
Martin is my bitch,
I do. Can’t wait in fact, I’m sure many agree, as you say.
Flayed Potatoes,
2018- perhaps in a two years, get hype!
2022- *twiddlingone’sthumbswhilestillwaiting*
2025- urmm urgh argh *slayshype*
2030- -_-
2035- a dream of A Dream of Spring.
Hmmm…
Most likely they say this to ”help” GRRM.
Martin himself said that there will be spoilers. I highly doubt he didn’t know what S6 stories where.
Martin is my bitch,
I did go against a principle of mine and that’s speaking for anyone but myself so I’ll rephrase, I don’t want the show to spoil the books. I get that they’ll arrive at the same destination and I’m gonna have to accept that one.
TFT,
Really? You got the impression that 80% of people here are unable to have a measured discussion with people they disagree with to some point, instead screaming and shouting at them?
I got the impression that the vast majority
a) isn’t opposed to a good adaptation (or people who might prefer it), while not being opposed to more creative approaches either and
b) is quite capable of discussing points rationally. Even when people become rude and impolite, most people refrain from “screaming”, instead trying to de-escalate things.
There are a few more verbally violent posters, but that’s – in my experience – only a handful of people.
But if, to you, it’s really the vast majority who seems impolite, why do you hang out here? The atmosphere should feel rather poisonous to you.
cosca,
Exactly. Martin’s writing is the same in the last 2 books. ”Hit and miss”
You have Theons amazing chapters…..and then Dorne, the II and Quentyn(ugh).
This statement is really weird. It won’t spoil the books but certain plot elements will be the same? Quoting Melisandre ” If half of the onion is rotten, that is a rotten onion.” So if the certain elements will be the same, that means it WILL spoil the books. But I don’t care. I’ve been slowly losing my interest for the books and because of encounter with westeros.org purists, I basically don’t want to read them anymore.
cosca,
Oh George is a hack as well. His worldbuilding is great (really outlining and worldbuilding are his strong points), but he tends to tie himself down with tons of useless plot points and derails a lot (the Meereenese knot, whatever was going on in AFFC, and Tyrion’s misadventures in Essos are good examples of derailing that leads to him writing himself in corners and then not writing at all).
AGOT is probably the most simplistic book with nowhere near as much filler, but it’s still a 2 out of 5 star book for me. Not even sorry.
That’s not what the headline says.
Dorne sucks in every medium. Not even an anime can redeem it.
Jack Bauer 24,
Case closed
Freak outs should end now
Cogman has some words for you
https://twitter.com/b_cogman/status/712695419185172480
Flayed Potatoes,
To be honest. The Sand Snakes and Arianne would fit nicely into a anime…..
Flayed Potatoes,
Yet the show could have done it better than the books, they didn’t. They made it worse somehow.
of courseeeee it will spoil the books…they just lying
phantomstrife,
2040 – A Dream of Spring by Brandon Sanderson with notes from GRRM
HelloThere,
They won’t… Sadly.
Flayed Potatoes,
Haha…at this rate your statement doesn’t seem that outrageous
Pounce,
For you perhaps. For me it was better.
Mihnea,
Quentyn also….He fit’s perfectly into the ”Shy prince” cliche.
I think Dance was a better book than Feast, but I think both books should’ve actually been one book that came out in 2005, and Winds should’ve come out in 2011 instead with Dream being the one everyone is waiting for right now.
Sadly Martin seems to let himself get carried away with the side plots and world building as mentioned, and we got two bloated tomes six years apart with a sequel nowhere in sight… so for better or worse, we have only the show to go by for the foreseeable future.
Hmm…interesting
Robert’s Rebellion should be an anime. Rhaegar’s description solidifies it.
I got the same impression as well from the articles about the DVD commentary.
Flayed Potatoes,
Can’t disagree with dorne, everything was cringe worthy. GRRM = Steve Jobs, D&D = Tim Cook
Hahaha, I love the screencap chosen for this post. Jamie’s expression is pretty much the same expression/reaction I initially had on my face after reading the headline.
Now after careful consideration reading the FULL article, I’m not too worried.
BRING IT ON!
Wow, some of you seem a bit confused… To me, it is quite clear : D&D didn’t say that the show will be totally different than the book, no. They say that due to the differences between the books and the show, nobody will know what is a spoiler or not.
That is true, and we already had a bunch of examples : Jorah is dying from greyscale while in the books he’s fine, Brienne killed Stannis but in the books she’s miles away from the North… In season 6 nobody will know what is a book spoiler and what was invented for the show. So, technically, Thrones won’t spoil the books.
Robb Snow,
Dance would have been a very good book, if a editor would’ve cut about 40% of it.
Seriously, Martin gave Tyrion as much character progresion in 10 chapters as he gave Jaime, in ASOS, in 3 chapters.
Jack Bauer 24,
But the article itself says “People are talking about whether the books are going to be spoiled – and it’s really not true,” David Benioff says in the new interview. “So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George is either.”
So if Benioff says the books are not going to be spoiled, and then he basically admits they are going to be, why did Watchers on the Wall decided to name this article “Benioff and Weiss say Game of Thrones won’t spoil the books“?
Moka,
You mean, we should read more then the title!?!?
Jaime lost his hand in three chapters, so he got even more progression than Tyrion. What was Tyrion’s achievement in book 5? Riding a pig?
sd,
agree x 100000
the original FMA was good for what it was, but brotherhood was on a completely and utterly different level.
Not sure, but it sounds to me like Cogman is pretty much insinuating it is clickbait.
Unless they tell us on the “Inside the Episode”.
This is an awfully kind wink that D&D have directed toward “slowhand” GRRM and it comes as no surprise to me whatsoever. GRRM’s tale probably will have many false summits before the final summit is reached. The show will choose one of those summits and declare victory. There is no contractual obligation for either side to stick to the original discussions and outlines, and each side will be better for it, imho. The tale is told in the telling, with each medium engineering creative canon divergence, complete with butterfly effects, amalgamations, varying prophesies, bloodletting and lost Gendrys.
Exactly. What they meant was, the show won’t spoil everything in the books. Duh. There is a mountain of difference between won’t spoil anything and won’t spoil everything. The show has already given huge spoilers to the books away, and they are about to give a couple of Red-Wedding-level spoilers away.
Mihnea,
A millions ughs for Quentyn. The worst story line in the entire series and it amounted to nothing really. Every minute reading a Quentyn related chapter was a minute thinking those pages should have belonged to Barristan or even Missandei.
I’m usually all for the good guys, and Quentyn was definitely one, but I just couldn’t deal with him.
Just replying so people can see this. Well said.
I honestly don’t know how I feel about this.
To me, the TV show was a way to bring the books to life. I am not a purest and understood changes would have to be made in the TV show adaptation. But I always saw the show as bringing the books to life.
With this statement, it appears D&D are going to create fan fiction for the show?
I guess I will stay neutral until we see how season 6 plays out.
Danny,
This, and cutting Arrianne is why I liked Dorne in the show more.
So I guess this means viewers won’t be able to bitch and moan when reading one of the last books and an awesome line said on the show isn’t written exactly the same in the book. 😉
basically theyre doing damage control and saying “please still buy the books”
the show is already going to spoil the books EG Jon Snow, CleganeBowl, R+L=J etc etc etc
The fact that they will probably give priority to their favorite characters (Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa, Dany), even if they don’t have a very important story at the end makes me very angry.
No.
Just read the article.
Ser Matt the Sullen,
Dany and the Dothraki. The White Walkers. Jon’s fate!…..etc.
Hell, Martin himself said there will be spoilers on his own blog!
They do this most likely as a sign of respect towards Martin.
I think you are on to something here. Or it could be they are really excited to be able to tell the story (or half of it since they will still be using book material) without having to make sure certain they meet certain elements from the books for most plots. I would think it would make the incredibly complicated process that is GOT a little bit easier production wise.
But if they know the book is almost done and likely to be released soon, they would not want people (non book readers who haven’t started reading the books yet) to think they shouldn’t start reading the books because they have already know the complete story from the show. It seems like there has been some tension between D&D and GRRM recently, and this might be a first step to publicly ease that tension.
Also, as they have just seen all the season 6 episodes (not complete, but put together), I’m sure they have begun to outline and write the scripts for season 7. So that would likely mean for the first time they really are on their own but for key plot points. So it may very well be a combination of the two.
https://twitter.com/b_cogman/status/712695419185172480
Certain people wank all the time that D&D don’t give GRRM his props. So here they do. Which is nice. WoooHoo. Mutual admiration society. Enjoy that.
Move along. Nothing to see here.
Still some cake worthy posts though. So that’s a thing.
TormundsWoman,
I really don’t believe that this is brand new information at all – just a brand new spin. The show has diverged and will continue to diverge, but 90% of the story remains fairly close. The endings could diverge even further, but D&D have previously implied that they’d be converging on George’s ending: we may take different routes to get there but we are all figuring out how to get to the same place (paraphrased).
My best guess is that the spin doctors are trying to stop an exodus of book-loving fans. My next door office neighbor said he was probably not watching this season for that very reason.
Luka Nieto,
This is why I always look forward to seeing your comments. 🙂
I never got the impression Sansa was a favorite of theirs. The other three are obvious, especially Tyrion and Dany. They seem to love Varys as well (hence why he’s solidly on team Dany now). I think they also love Bronn and possibly Ramsay.
RIP Arya, Bran, and Jon (do they like him? maybe after the season finale they do because of the publicity lol). Arya is a favorite of George though, so maybe she’ll get the attention she deserves.
I agree, this was kind of a head-scratcher. But the way I see it, there’s a portion of the book which doesn’t exist on the show, such as:
Those parts of the book won’t be spoiled because, well, they aren’t in the show at all. But on the other hand, the major beats of the story, that is, the fates of Jon Snow, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Cersei, et al … those storylines that have remained the most faithful to the books … those will be spoiled by the show. And even those characters that have different plots, such as Theon, Sansa, and Jamie, I’m guessing that the major beats of their storylines will be the same in the show and the books.
In other word … for those of you who were upset that D&D brutally (and necessarily) separated the wheat from the chaff of AFFC/ADWD, don’t worry … you can enjoy the unspoiled “chaff” part when TWOW finally comes out in 2018.
Flayed Potatoes,
I understand, completely, what youre saying :). And I fully agree
I think D&D, and whoever else works on the show will not ruin it that way. I have faith. They are extremely talented
I didn’t see anything wrong with Jamie going to Dorne… going to save his daughter is not out of the question??
Jack Bauer 24,
I also noticed this in the comments, LOL
Someone asked:
Hey George, I know WINDS wont come out before season 6, but is there a chance that A Dream of Spring will beat the last season of the show? 🙂
Link | Frozen | Thread
grrm
Mar. 9th, 2016 08:18 pm (UTC)
If the show runs ten seasons, maybe.
Link | Frozen | Parent | Thread | Expand
This. Seriously, so much overreaction here. There will be some things in the show that happen in the books, some that don’t, and some that are similar to events in the books, and we won’t know until we actually go ahead and read the books. This is all they meant.
Nice try D&D
I read the whole article and I still find it a strange interview to have done. Benioff says it’s “not really true” the books will be spoiled and then talks about there will be “key elements” that are the same. Well, that’s doesn’t go with the first statement he made. It’s a self-contradiction and mixed message. I find it bizarre to have even done the interview in the first place. Why bother talking about what is or is not a spoiler in the show? Just let it play out. I don’t know, it’s weird.
So, Linda and her ilk were right in that this show is nothing but fan-fic?
Just kidding. Well, not really if we’re to believe this statement. Yeesh.
MeeraReed,
Yup – D&D want to make sure that folks continue to watch the show AND read all the books… Really hoping this means that GRRM is close to publishing book 6. A girl can dream –
Well they would say that, wouldn’t they – and in any case, who is going to know what in S6 was made up and what was taken from the book until TWOW comes out.
Selina,
So the main characters? lol
Theres more to the story then Bran.
And I have a direct quote for Cogman:
Just because the rest of the article contradicts this statement does not unsay the statement. I’ve read the whole article, and I find the contradictions frustrating rather than clarifying and reassuring.
Saying that it isn’t true that the show will spoil the books is the same as saying that it isn’t true that the books could spoil the show or that the Sullied could have ever spoiled the Unsullied.
Deesensfan,
Sansa may not have a such important role at the end of the story. But they can kill characters (Rickon, Littlefinger, Stannis) and give their story to her. They have already made with Jeyne Poole. Same for Cersei. She may die in the next book, but they can prolong her story on the show, and kill other characters to keep Lena in the cast.
I haven´t read the article but at a simple glance the title itself makes me angry…is there no F way the readers are going to ever have the true answers??? First,that lazy man who won´t ever finish his own story and now the confused producers who are making up their own stories,Heaven knows why… This whole ASOIAF and GOT thing is so regretful to me 🙁 I don´t know…Maybe it´s best to binge watch a show after its finished and certainly never read a series that hasn´t got an ending
Luka Nieto,
I think you are being simple.
That’s one episode out of a whole season. The one episode they went all-in in resources and time honing and polishing it. Nevermind the director deserved more crédito than the writing. OFC the episode showing Others and wights fucking shit up would be one of the best ever. It’s climatic, everything was leading to it. That episode was the excepcional. I also liked their OC from the first season. Then they fucked up stannis. Talisa. Dany and the HotU. Sand snakes. Doran. I could go on.
They fuck up every (90% of the) time they diverge from the books. I’m not a purist nor unreasonable. Adaptations obviously need to be made for TV. Doesnt give them leave, an excuse, to do bad shit and be immune to crítica.
You can fanboy rage all you want. I feed on it.
Selina,
Yeah but whatever they do, I am sure it will be important to the overall story, it is known that the main elements of the story will not change. D&D have this job for a reason. They know what to do with this, more than anyone else here.
I don’t understand people who dislike the show but STILL watch it and spend time on a fan website talking about how much they don’t like the show.
Deesensfan,
You can still watch something, enjoy certain aspects and criticize things that you don’t like. It doesn’t mean you dislike it.
Deesensfan,
Yes, but they have preference for some characters and it’s annoying. In the show, the Lannisters have much more importance than the Starks. Characters like Varys, LF and Ramsay has much more importance than POV characters like Asha (Yara) or Ser Barristan. Not to mention the stories they simply destroyed, and Bran is the main one. They have admitted that they created stories for characters because they liked the actors (Myranda, Missandei, Tommen).
I’ve never been concerned about the show ‘spoiling’ the books (but then, I also don’t mind spoilers period). I get so much out of books that the screen can’t match, and also appreciate the visuals, acting, sets, effects, etc that the show brings that can’t be as ‘present’ in the books. I’m happy for those who are reassured by this though, who HAVE been concerned and get a little comfort from it.
Choose Your Own Adventure: Game of Thrones edition! 😀
Deesensfan,
No idea. When I got bored and frustrated with The Walking Dead, I stopped watching it. I generally don’t subject myself to things I don’t like.
I think a lot of people seem to enjoy ridiculing the show, especially in a group setting. If that’s the glue holding a group together though, well… again, I don’t usually subject myself to things I don’t like.
what books?
there may well be no ending in book form, so i’ll take whatever i can get atm
the key elements will be the same as they say.
If a lazy, misleading headline is good enough for EW, then, by gum, it’s good enough for WOTW!
RickTo be honest that happened in the books also. AFFC had more Lannisters, and they are more interesting.
Bran didn’t got destroyed, we will learn this season that he works for the evil side when he meets WW. 😉 He has to prepare for it.
Sansa is more important than Rickon, Littlefinger, Stannis combined, Asha isn’t a very minor POV and Selmy also.
The only thing i agree is that they favor Cersei and Tyrion (not Jaime) with way too much screen time and redeeming qualities they don’t have, but people lik
Yuck, reading the comments in this thread disturbs me. Boo hoo, they changed something, boo hoo, they added a bad line, boo hoo someone died, grow the fuck up. It’s not like D&D magically conjur up the episodes. Most people don’t seem to realize that those two fellas are hardly in control of everything.
I consider it a bonus to have two versions.
I’m glad we will have one finished at least…so hopefully the end game is mostly the same.
I’m not worried about George dying before 2023 when ADOS might come out. I’m worried that he wont be able to wrap it up in two books…so we’re talking 2030+.
This isn’t a very complicated concept. The books have a LOT of elements. Some will be the same in the show, many will not. Until the books come out we won’t know for sure what part of the show is a “spoiler”, hence, from a technical viewpoint you could consider none of it a spoiler. Or you can just consider your favorite theory confirmed until the books come out and un-confirm it. 😛
…and this…
WHERE are my beers?!
Maggie,
I don’t think they are more interesting. The politic plot is quite boring in my opinion.
Bran’s story was destroyed. They cut half of his chapters and cut him from all the season 5. He doesn’t work for the evil side. Maybe Dany does.
Sansa is important, but they’re giving other storylines to make her more prominent in the show, because they like Sophie. They are minor POV, but this doesn’t justify.
Bran is coming back in a big way.
Jack Bauer 24,
But they killed his content of the books. And they will probably kill him to give his story to Jon or Dany.
Flayed Potatoes,
You should read some of the vitriol spouted in the Rant and Rave thread on westeros.org There is a marked difference between people who criticise aspects of the show and explain why they dislike those aspects, and people who babble a diatribe of incoherent crap which is offensive, rude, and disrespectful.
There are posters here who frequently criticise aspects of the show, but they articulate why, and I respect their opinion, and continue to read their comments. On the other hand, there are others who write the sort of nonsense described above. They just get ignored when I read the comments section.
You may not like decisions D&D make. You may not like decisions GRRM makes, but show some respect FGS. None of this really matters. We all owe a lot to everyone involved with the show for giving us a show we clearly all love a lot. Feel free to criticise, but do it respectfully.
I’m glad they cut his training in the show. It wouldn’t have translated to the screen that well. And no, I don’t think Bran is going anywhere. He’s here to stay. His story isn’t going to Jon or Dany.
I hope not. I love Bran 🙁
Flayed Potatoes,
Producers don’t like the character. Even if Bran is the most important character in the end, if they are actually changing the story, they can kill him for shock or because they think he is boring and his story could be more interesting in the hands of a more popular character.
Well, that’s a bit different from George’s answer to the same question; on a recent Not a Blog post, George posted the trailer for season 6 and plugged the show. On the comments section of the post a fan asked him about spoilers and upcoming seasons; George’s answer was: “There will be spoilers…It is what it is.”
This is just putting a spin on saying “we’re not even trying to be faithful to the novels’ storyine”.
I mean they were basically saying the same thing to a lesser degree in Season 4 and 5: “wow, this wasn’t really faithful to how the novels did something. Sansa doesn’t even go back to Winterfell, for example”. Answer; “well you know, we’re not really trying to be faithful to the novels at this point.”
Ack. Now I fully understand that there will be difference, but what I mean is that I wish they’d phrase it in the professional way of “there’s only so much we can do with limitations of time and budget, physically we couldn’t make an exact reproduction of the novels, no one could” (which is fine)….versus “we simply don’t feel obligated to be like the novels”.
But all of this is just bluster really.
I fully agree; and that’s a better way to put it. I mean in broad brushstrokes the major plot points aren’t going to diverge THAT much from the novels. And as for the “minor” points from the novels….well by definition I’m not really as concerned about the minor changes, I expect those from an adaptation.
I mean something like “how Cersei ultimately dies” I don’t expect to be very different. While something like “how Pypar and Grenn die”….I don’t mind if stuff on that scale changes.
Who is more interesting or not it’s an opinion, that doesn’t mean everyone has to share it. The political plot is what made this show successful IMO, without the Lannisters both book and show wouldn’t be the same..they are a important family anyway.
Again what Bran or Dany will do, it’s a theory. not a fact… in believe Mel’s visions about the wolf boy. 🙂
Also they took Jeyne’s story and gave it to Sophie.. Jeyne isn’t an important character, she was there only for Theon’s story. Instead of fake Arya they used real Sansa nothing mayor really. The show can’t have 10000 minor characters and don’t give screen time to the important ones.
Flayed Potatoes,
Yeah, I am not talking about simple criticism.
Selina,
Its too bad you see it that way
George,
D&D are being loyal, something good old GURM isn’t doing too well
Robb Snow,
Agreed
Of course what is silly about all of this is no one was concerned that the books spoiled the first 5 seasons of the show. Yes, there are always some minor alterations, but book readers pretty much knew what was going to happen, and yet the show went on. As long as the meat of the story doesnt change, then Im not sure anyone is really all that concerned about minor character changes or events as long as the broad strokes are consistent.
He won’t be boring now with flashbacks of TOJ and WW’s.
Selina,
In the show, Sansa and Bran are equally important.
You cant seem to separate the books and the show.
Deesensfan,
However, I remember now you said you didn’t even watch all of season 5.
I forget that when I try to have a discussion with you that makes sense
Seriously – Bran isn’t going to die for shock value. Do you actually think D&D are that stupid?
Ginevra,
That is a very generous percentage (90%) if you consider the cumulative changes and consolidations of storylines/characters quantity wise. And the chances or consolidations will only increase from now on, I assume. If you refer thought to “certain key elements” (notice that they didn’t say simply “key elements” or “all key elements” will be the same) you might be closer to the truth I think.
If you truly go line item by line item in all the Houses, characters, plots and regions you’d get a pretty big chunk of divergences. But no one has time to do it and mostly look at broad strokes, major characters and if the result is the same for essential storylines. Which is good I think because we all know devil is in the details :p
Honestly, I do not think they are lying or doing damage control either. They are not famous for it and have never done it before. To me both look like straight shooters. I simply think they won’t keep it to Martin’s outline quite as close as we might like. And maybe that’s a good thing too. They can do their own thing rather than always be compared to Martin’s writing.
I kind of lean now towards HB’s take on it! Ah well at least I’m not alone 🙂
In other news, they just announced Lena Headey as a guest at the Motor City Comic Con.
SCORE!
New Omaze/Red Carpet premiere video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cu9o_P5_dY&feature=em-uploademail
At the end Nikolaj says “we can promise dragons”, so I wonder if they’ll be in the premiere then.
Hmm!!! I’m confused, anyway i’ll ignore this interview for the time being.
Deesensfan,
They made Sansa more important.
Deesensfan,
I can watch how much I want of each season. I pay for HBO as you all. This does not prevent me from discussing here.
Cumsprite,
But it is not misleading. I’ve read it twice (not the headline mind you, but the article) and it makes sense that it would have that headline. And it is also something they have never said before.
I think you’re just being super mean. It was a good article and good decision to post it. There. I said it.
Cogman seems irritated.
What they are saying is the will give us the short version of the story and Martin will tell the more complex and rich one. But we will have big spoilers for sure.
Nothing new really. Just want to be okey with everyone and try to calm down the purists.
Selina,
Of course you can watch whatever you want lol but I’m discussing importance of characters and you haven’t even seen all the episodes lol doesn’t make sense
Pretty obvious they are only saying this to get ratings, a lot of book readers have said they won’t watch this season so they are trying to get them to come back to the show.
They are probably not being very truthful, but it’s their job right now to promote the show and get people to watch
Selina,
The books and show are different
You don’t get that part
And Sansa is a stark she is just as important in the show 😉
All they’re saying here is that the show will stay as faithful to the books as it has been since S2 : the story milestones will be GRRM’s but the details and the journey to reach those milestones will be different.
If you were OK with that up until now, then there’s nothing to worry about.
Deesensfan,
When it comes to WW Bran seems to be more important. Almost on level with Jon or Daeny. Sansa is pretty big deal in both books and the show. Hopefully her arc for next season is truly amazing as they said.
Oooh…. that cuts! 😀 I confess I am a little surprised by many comments here: how can D&D, going further in Seasons 6-8, spoil or not spoil novels that don’t exist yet? This is a rather deep existential question. Seasons 6-8, books 6, 7, and so on…. are rather in the chicken and egg dilemma. Which came first?
Geralt of Rivia,
Yeah they are both important, in very different ways
I hope it’s amazing! I love her story line so far
I’m excited for all the Starks
Come on.
1. Those book readers represent a tiny portion of the audience. They don’t matter at all.
2. No matter what they say, those people won’t stop watching.
It makes no sense to have that as the headline. While the headline states “Benioff and Weiss say Game of Thrones won’t spoil the books” they said nothing of the kind. It’s not even a good paraphrasing of what they actually said.
And it most certainly is misleading because the text contradicts the headline.
Is the article of some value? Not so much for me. YMMV. There is nothing new in it, but people are talking about it, so it’s got that going for it. I guess.
A better headline would be “Benioff and Weiss Probably Done with Answering Stupid Questions”.
Cumsprite,
That’s good for a laugh!
It’s clear to me DnD are not talking about specific “spoiler” events, like those we usually talk about as something a typical book reader/show watcher need take heed of (Ned’s beheading, RW, certain parentages, etc…). I think everyone is getting caught up in semantics. It seems to me DnD are suggesting here they will not “spoil” the experience for fans of the books. In other words, yes, they will be showing some things not yet written, they will be diverging from the story often, and both the show and books will still offer opportunities to be entertained and surprised by the experience.
A little nuance in the coffee goes a long way. Or baileys, that works too.
HotPinkLipstick,
And that’s me at your doorstep. Stopped by Ralphs for the milk. Surely you have a fork?
Sister Kisser,
Very well spoken! I agree!
Deesensfan,
Arya is more important than Sansa in the books. But they’re making Sansa more important than everyone in the show, what pisses me.
Selina,
They actually aren’t. They aren’t making her out to be the one to defeat the WW which is the main theme of the show.
But okay …. Considering you haven’t seen it all, how would you know hahaha
Not more important than everyone, but they have certainly put more stock in her character than the books have thus far. Or perhaps just more screen time with less obvious purpose.
Cumsprite,
Get a hold of yourself. Of course it makes sense. They quite clearly explain in he article that: no they won’t spoil the books, since they are filling in the blanks differently then Martin. It is not one or two little changes either. Only certain key elements will remain the same. That’s your point A, B and C.
To the point: if Sannis wins the Winterfell battle against the Boltons and kills them while Jon is on a slab at the Wall: did they spoil the books?! Are you kidding me?! If Sansa married Ramsay and was raped and didn’t stay in the Vale: did the show spoil the books?! If Varys is in Meereen, did the show spoil HIS whereabouts in Winds?!
Of course you won’t find it interesting. There’s nothing about Martin you can bash. Or about Winds. I wish you’d get on with your “7 Things I Know About Chile con Queso Farts” mag and stop making trouble.
This.
Benioff and Weiss were asked the same exact question about this topic that they get asked in every single interview that they do. And at the core of their response, they said exactly the same thing that both they and Martin have been saying for years. The show is telling the same story as the novels. They will cover the same major storylines and character beats that the novels will, and they will adhere to them whenever it is possible and practical to do so. We already knew this.
There will be divergences. Most of them will arise out of logistical necessity, or because Martin hasn’t made up his mind yet. But we won’t know exactly what those changes are, because neither D&D nor Martin will tell us out of mutual self-interest (look what happened when they confirmed that Shireen’s sacrifice was a future book spoiler – people lost their damn minds). We knew this as well.
But ultimately, the degree to which the books and the show diverge will not be as significant as some people make it out to be. There is nothing that will irreversibly affect the fundamental endgame of the story. Same story, different journeys, same destination, and both are worthwhile. Did we already know all of this? Yes, we did!
Basically, there is nothing to see here. Yet because D&D phrased their standard response ever-so-slightly differently, and because EW used a big bold headline, we’re going to be treated to a media frenzy that whips the Internet into a lather for a few days. Good times.
Some people just want to read the books without reading them… If you want the Original, you are forced to wait till TWOW and further.
Deesensfan,
Haha, Maybe I know more than you.
Deesensfan,
GRRM should have responded ‘If the show runs ten MORE seasons’. It’s a more accurate representation of the state of things.
Okay, didn’t read all the comments, but to all of you mentioning how bad Show!Dorne was…
Did you not read AFFC? Whoa boy, that was some cheesy bad stuff. I was hoping D&D could class it up a bit, but I guess you can’t rewrite/direct yourself out of sexy assassin girl band trio. I think the fact they chose to give it so little time, where GRRM writes chapters and chapters about it shows some sense. I continue to think the SS must be important to the end game, or they would have been edited out entirely.
phantomstrife,
Lol!!!!
Jack Bauer 24,
Dragon’s have always been in the premiere except in Season 1 (obviously). The first episode usually reintroduces the dragons first chance it gets, so I’m pretty sure we’ll be seeing them on April 24th.
You are high.
The pertinent quote from the article: “And while there are certain key elements that will be the same…”
Hmmm. Gee golly. Sounds like some key elements of the show and books will be the same. Wait. Lemme read that again. Yup. Some key elements of the show and books will be the same. Sorry, I am paraphrasing here. One more time. Some key elements of the show and books will be the same.
Martin and HBO have been very up front about the spoiler thingy since before the show aired. Some things will be different. Some things will be the same. This article reinforces that.
Jack Bauer 24,
I would be too, if the day before someone would yell at me on Twitter to adapt from the books since they have a source. Who knows how many people without common sense and without a minimum of respect or courtesy do that to him. In fact I’d probably go on Twitter and say we’re definitely going to spoil everything, no matter what my coworker say! He however possesses much more cool than I am and says read that and see those A, B and C points were going to touch like Martin lol
I wish he’d cc-ed the one who yelled at him!
Yeah but this time Dany is hostage and V&R are still chained, so either we catch up with an awol Drogon or that scene of Tyrion in the crypts is from the premiere.
Cumsprite,
You however do not and will NOT know which ones of those that they don’t change are spoilers. And even then it will be a point: Tyrion dies by dragon fire in Essos. Books have him killed in Westeros when he fights Cersei. See?! Both mediums killed him. Are you spioled?!
You can paraphrase until your cows come home! The books are the books and the show is the show! Martin and David and Dan have been truly upfront we agree!
I think the broad strokes and a few key set pieces will be the same especially for Winds, as I imagine they have read his unfinished manuscript, but how they get there will be different. I also think the show may choose to end on a lighter note, with more closure than George otherwise would provide. The end game will again be fairly similar though the particulars of Spring are probably non existent at this point making the journey through that material completely up to D&D. Which Book purest should be happy with, since their book wont be spoiled, best of both worlds.
Flayed Potatoes,
Agreed – the major points and basic ending have to be the same. But I don’t mind differences in character arcs. That’s kind of fun and actually very typical for book to screen translations. I think they are just saying that the books will still have book-surprises and changes and, of course, more detail.
DD will give us the better and more refined story and Martin will just give us a huge mess. Tv show=quality The book=quantity
And George cut Bran from all of AFFC.
Without a crystal ball this is pure conjecture. Remember the burning of Shireen and how that played out? What about R+L=J or A+J=T or any number of little bits still unresolved?
Anyway, all this probably ends up as a moo point. Until Martin starts putting out books the show is the canon now and in a lot of eyes he’s the one doing the adaptation.
Jack Bauer 24,
There was a scene in the trailer with Drogon flying. Maybe that’s the one used in the episode. He looked about the same size as the season 5 finale. He could be flying around in the distance while Dany is with the Dothraki.
Young Dragon,
If I remember correctly, AFFC and ADWD take place at the same time. Dany, Jon, and Tyrion were cut like Bran from AFFC and moved to ADWD.
I’d read TWOW if it came out, but I’m under no illusion about its publication date, I’m certain ADOS is a lost cause. I have no patience or high esteem for writers who start a series, then get lost in a spider web of a million threads, move the plot forward at a snail’s pace and have no sense of obligation or responsibility to get down to wrapping the story up. When a writer publishes a book that’s meant to be a series, he strikes an unspoken deal with their readers. They will proceed their story towards its destination and the readers will respond with interest and money. Martin seems to have lost interest in finishing his most famous work, he’d rather focus on side projects. If he couldn’t be bothered to get TWOW out before S6, how on earth is he going to bother to get the ending out when the show’s done? He’s simply lazy. Actual professional writers write whenever and wherever they can, they make time to be able to write, he keeps making excuses for his tardiness.
I think part of D+D’s reasoning behind those comments is an attempt to amp up the canon story’s dwindling relevance. I’ve seen many ASOIAF readers who have already lost or are losing interest in the books, how many will join them in the future? The long wait harms the series’ popularity and importance, just like the average quality of the last two books. If not for the show, it’d have been gone by now. But it’s a two-edged sword, with the show arriving to the same ending the readers would get in canon, ASOIAF will no longer be big on most people’s radars. Many will just accept the show’s ending and its preceeding events and move on.
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I think you overstate how much the hardcore book fans matter. They ain’t lying in bed at night tossing and turning about losing that demographic. HBO will be rolling in the dough regardless of whether they watch or not, it’s peanuts compared to the millions of casual book fans and show-only viewers. If anything they’re just throwing Martin a bone.
Cumsprite,
ziiiiiiiiiiiiing…
Deesensfan,
Well said, I was waiting to read all the comments before I made a comment myself but you have said everything I was thinking.
cosca,
I’ll bet the pook wankers cry themselves to sleep at night into their waifu pillows.
TormundsWoman,
Oh TormundsWoman, your constant delusion is so sweet to my eyes. You’re seeing what you want to see my friend. Of course Martin would say that, doesn’t want to look bad to his fans. And of course D and D would say that, they want to be on good terms with Martin. They’ve never really said anything different. They’re going to spoil the shit out of this, it’s the key moments the people remember the most after all. People haven’t been waiting decades to find out if Garlan Tyrell will become a Kingsguard, or to learn more about the Isle of Faces.
And furthermore, the books will not be finished.
Flayed Potatoes,
But the difference is that Jon, Dany and Tyrion received an average of ten chapters each in the next book, whereas Bran received three. It wasn’t just the show that benched him.
Cumsprite,
Will those pillows come with matching beard, cap and suspenders?
Pretty much this. But we already knew the main stories would be pretty much the same but the details would differ, so he’s not telling us anything we didn’t already know.
If we are talking about a proto-beard, a fedora and suspenders with little sriracha bottles on them, then yes.
Young Dragon,
True, but on that same end Sansa had 3 chapters in AFFC and didn’t get sidelined..
Or maybe they did nothing of the sost and changed things because the television medium required it.
Yes, pray tell, how DID the burning of Shireen played out? Did it happened exactly as in the books then? IIRC You seem to have some confirmation on that straight from Martin, no?! LOL
The ToJ was already done in the books. I don’t see the big reveal for bookreaders unless it’s not the conclusion 90% of them have drawn. I’m also not positive you’ll actually see anything other than what was in Ned’s dream.
Martin is most definitely not doing adaptation. Apparently, David and Dan are saying they are diverging from Martin’s VERY OWN points A, B and C that he shared with them. At best you MAY think it’s two versions like they say. #BookCanonForever
Haven’t read most of the responses, so this has probably already been stated, but I’ll comment anyway.
How is this different from anything they have said for the past couple of years? How is ‘key elements’ different from the ‘broad strokes’? George doesn’t know what will happen in ‘A Dream Of Spring’ beyond the broad strokes, so how the hell would D&D know? By ‘key elements’, that means the ending for the series and the main 5-8 characters. Do people really think Jon being resurrected on the show isn’t a book spoiler? Do they think the TOJ, if they go much further than Ned’s dream in AGOT, won’t be a spoiler? Of course it is. All this interview does is give fuel to the people who already hate the show and believe it is nothing more than fanfic. So I’m not sure why they did this. I’m guessing it is because they got in some trouble with George when they announced that Shireen would be burned in a future book.
So a few months back, I recall having a debate around these parts were I argued that S6 was not going to be anywhere near as spoilery as people were making it out to be, for precisely the reasons D&D laid out. Unfortunately I was right.
We are going to get some big moments this season, and a few of the early ones will be tightly connected to or directly from the books. But as time moves forward in the TV season, we will leave anything from the currently existing books far behind, and whether any particular “big moment” is actually GRRM canon or D&D original is going to be a crap-shoot that we won’t be able to resolve until GRRM finishes.
This is a pretty big departure from the style of S1-S4, which while containing numerous edits, combinations and trimmings of details, hit all the main points of the books. S5 clearly initiated a gap between the printed page and the screen, however, and this is only going to grow. As what goes as a “purist” around here, I generally find this disappointing. I don’t want to watch “good TV”…there’s far more of that out there than I could ever watch. I want to watch a reasonably faithful adaption of one of my favorite book series. For four seasons I had that. For four more seasons I will not.
On the upside, these comments by D&D make it all the more likely that Stannis will not have such a pathetic, nonsense ending in the books. That part of S5E10 was by far my least favorite part of the TV series, and I am convinced now more than ever that it is something almost entirely of D&D’s making (other than Stannis eventually losing somehow, which probably is book canon).
Young Dragon,
He cut Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Theon too…
If Twenty Good Men is quality then they can keep their quality
The Master himself said that there will be spoilers. And of course there will be spoilers… what D&D said it’s just marketing.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/477725.html#comments
TFT,
There’s nothing wrong with being a book purist IMO. I feel like I am one. It’s just I’ve come to accept the show and book as two different entities so my disappointments when I don’t see things like, oh say, ‘Edd, fetch me a block’ don’t reach blinding rage anymore. I moved past that when Talisa was introduced lol. I like the show for seeing the visual form of things. It is what it is and raging about it years on end is strange to me.
The only thing I really criticize, show wise, anymore are based on the show itself, rather on comparisons to the books. Things like rape in Sansa’s story, for instance.
As for the comments, I figure the broad strokes of the plot and the characters’ endgames remain the same as their eventual conclusion the books, but the minutiae it takes to get them there is probably going to be different. The quality or the sense-making of said details can be debated.
I loved Hardhome even though that didn’t happen. But, I think Aegon not being on the show is a mistake – him coming into the story and violently taking over both Jon and Dany’s proposed endgames made me laugh and provided a wrinkle in the way we expected those narratives to go. Either way, it is what it is.
I hate to be one of those, but the only way to know if S6 and beyond is going to be D&D’s own spin or based on George’s story is if George had finished TWOW in time. But, he didn’t and here we are.
Read through the comments on here, in my opinion the TV show wont be that far from the books. George will have discussed this matter as he knew the show would overtake the books. The main story lines will stay the same, my thinking was when reading this that maybe it wont spoil it, if a book is released this year. just a thought anyhow 🙂
TormundsWoman,
How it can it be canon if the series is never finished, and the show provides the One True Ending?
TormundsWoman,
There you go again. HBO confirmed that Shireen dies in the books, which was reconfirmed by Martin on his NAB and his Westerosi lackey on Twitter. That’s a spoiler. The how’s and why’s of her death do not change that.
As far as who is doing the adaptation, I can’t opine definitively one way or the other. That the ambiguity even exists for some and there is actual debate about it does not bode well for Martin’s legacy.
Selina,
Then Martin went on to give them an average of 10 chapters each in ADWD. He gave Bran 3.
But that’s not what’s being said. They’re not saying some key elements will be different, they’re saying some key elements will be the same meaning that there are more differences than similarities.
The headline shouldn’t be “Season 6 won’t spoil the Sixth Book”. It should be “Season 6 won’t spoil the Sixth Book as Much As We Thought”.
They’re explicitly saying that there are more differences between the show and the books this coming season than people think.
Stick to a vision. Either do a faithful adaptation or do a loose adaptation. Don’t do the first half faithfully (relatively) then branch off in a completely different direction in the second half. That is just wrong.
cosca,
I wanna know what Garlan Tyrell does. It is extremely important. Happy to report I will of course not be spoiled by the show.
I want to see the Grayscale hit Westeros from the Wall too, because Shireen will unleash it. Of course THAT won’t be spoiled either.
How am I doing so far?! LOL
But what I really want to read is Stannis whooping ass in the Winterfell battle, Arianne making chaos in KL, Ser Barry crushing the Yunkaii, the showdown between Jaime and Tyrion if it ever happens, Sansa taking the Vale knights with Petyr and wreaking havoc on the Lannisters or taking the North instead of running away from the Boltons to escape her abusing husband!
Zombies That Were Promised,
There are no more books to adapt. George doesn’t even know what will happen in ADOS beyond the ending and some key elements. George was in the middle of writing and coming up with twists for TWOW when D&D were writing and finishing season 6. ‘Key elements’ is no different from ‘broad strokes’. What they say in this interview isn’t something they haven’t said before. It is them hoping to lure anyone who was on the fence about watching season 6 before TWOW comes out.
Cas,
It’s not explicit. That’s a pretty damn ambiguous series of statements up there.
Also, the Twenty Good Men meme is beyond overplayed and lazy. So many people who criticize Season 5 seem to fall back on the same stock phrases and criticisms. “Hardhome was good, Dorne and everything else was bad. Bad Poosey, 20 Good Men.” I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of reasoned critiques, but the other one’s are far too common.
Basically nothing there has been setup well at all. Least of all the Battle of Yunkai, which will just be Barry killing a bunch of oriental stereotypes. Wouldn’t be too surprised if Stannis died either.
Also, half this stuff probably won’t ever be read. Because it won’t be in The Winds of Winter.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
It sounds like D&D aren’t doing those key elements and ending because the books aren’t out yet and they don’t want to spoil it. To which I say
To hell with the books. They won’t ever give the ending, I want the real ending and if D&D know it they should do it.
Cas,
They are saying the same thing they have said for years. ‘Key elements’ is just another way of saying ‘the broad strokes’. The ending of the series will be more or less the same. The ending for the main 5-8 characters will be similar. The journey will be different, and twists that George comes up with while writing won’t happen in the show. This isn’t anything new.
Cumsprite,
Your momma didn’t spank you proper when she had the chance!!! Ambiguity my foot.
Martin didn’t confirm that Stannis is the one doing it though. And that is a world of difference to me. And when I mean a world I truly mean it changes the essence of a character of how much of himself he’s willing to lose to do his duty. I know you don’t agree. And I know there are a huge host of people behind you that don’t agree either. I am but one reader, true however for me it is important. At some point Martin’s books stopped being about the story and started to be about characters. What they compromise of their goodness, loyalty, moral principles etc matters.
I guess it depends on what they consider “key elements”. Maybe to them those are only things like who ends up on the iron throne, and which of the Mai characters live or die. And maybe not things like who are Jon Snow’s parents.
Until they get backlash and go: “George actually is gonna put this in the next book”. Which they have also already done with Shireen’s ending.
You foot must be sore from moving that goalpost and is in want of a good rubbin’.
cosca,
Pfft, Battle of Yunkaii was so set up! So set up in fact it was a miracle he didn’t put it in ADwD. I blame Anne Groell.
Cumsprite,
My foot IS sore. A straight swing at your butt would make wonders for that.
I am not moving goalposts. You know full well I’m telling the truth about what matters to me about that burning.
Zombies That Were Promised,
I am 100% positive that the result of the war against the Others,the eventual king/queen on the iron throne, and the ending for Jon/Tyrion/Dany/Arya/Bran will be the same, or close enough. I think Cersei’s fate and the fate of her children will be similar. Everything else is probably going to differ, as we already saw with Stannis last season.
Not her fault. The writing for Battle of Yunkai wasn’t finished when ADWD was delivered. Groell said so herself in her Suvudu interview.
You won’t have that because those books don’t exist.
GRRM is the only one to blame.
El-bobby,
The answer to the only question that George asked them and that allowed them to make the series was the question of who was Jon’s mother. That’s not changing.
Cas,
Book purists are so hellbent on bringing up a few misses in the show, 20 good men, bad pussy and a few more over and over again when they want to stick it to the show. They judge the whole show (50 hours worth of material, dialogues etc) based on those few instances. Which is totally ridiculous, most of what they have an issue with are nitpicks (I dislike it because it’s different or hating on some insignificant things), or things that can be reasonably explained, but whatever. Now I ask, how many misses do the books have? Way more. Granted the books have more material, but the misses are bigger. What about the shit quality of AFFC and ADWD? They’d rather dedicate their time criticising the dip in quality in S5, than the same occurrence in the last two books. And they’re ASOIAF readers, first and foremost, shouldn’t they dedicate more attention to the canon story?
I don’t see rabid book fans/show detractors willing to touch upon the books’ misses. They accept them while ridiculing the show. Hypocrisy is what it is.
BTW I’ll take bad poosey over fat pink mast, myrish swamp, the more she drank the more she shat, her cvnt became the world, the sight of their arousal was arousing, a dagger up his butt, my men call me Darkstar and I am of the night, the ship groaned and growled (…) like a constipated fat man straining to shit etc any day of the week.
I’ll take GOT’s sex scenes over the awful writing of ASOIAF’s sex scenes. I mean those are just on a whole nother level of bad.
phantomstrife,
I agree. Most of the criticism from book purist makes no sense at all. It’s just hypocrisy and blind hate.
It was in terms of plot. Not in terms of emotional stakes. As I said, the Yunkish are cartoonish jokes, easily the weakest antagonists GRRM has ever come up with.
Based on filming spoilers and the season 6 trailer, I can think of many big reveals the show is going to spoil from the books.
They can’t adapt books that haven’t been written yet.
I’m not fussed about it. I will enjoy the show for what it is while I wait for the books. Nothing that D & D divulge (or make up) will spoil the reading experience for me, any more than already knowing what’s going to happen spoils my pleasure in reading them again and again.
Or will ever be written. TWOW will be published, there’s probably a 50% chance that he’ll get a seventh one out (maybe ADOS), but who really expects him to finish the series in seven books. Come on…
At this point in time I’d like him to publish TWOW, and then give up on finishing ASOAIF, and focus instead on other projects that are shorter and that he is more likely to finish, such as Dunk and Egg.
Allow me to interrupt the “Book purist! Show wanker! Book purist! Show wanker!” debate to remind you that for all the superiority some of you claim over that ‘other’ site (and give them way too much free publicity in your comments), you sure do act a heck of a lot like them.
Yea, they might do that. LOL.
The truth is that for “book purists”, from now on, for whatever happens in the series that they like, they will say “yea, they got that from George”; and whatever they don’t like they’ll dismiss as D&D “fanfiction”.
My guess is that D&D will continue to adapt the same way they’ve always adapted: Some scenes/storylines will happen more or less as they will in the books, some scenes/storylines will happen more or less as they will in the books, but with different characters (ie example Sansa taking over the “Fake Arya” storyline in season 5), some scenes will be “inspired” by material from the story outlines but won’t be the same, and some will be invented…
I expect in the end, the Jon Snow and Danny storylines will adhere the closest to what will happen bookwise.
It’s not like D&D are completely ignorant of future developments. According to GOT lore, at the fabled 2013 “story meeting” between D&D, George and HBO executives, story outlines and character “endgames” for Winds and Dream of Spring were discussed.
In this respect the Peter Dinklage and Ian Glen commentary over 5.09 in the Blue Ray set is a bit interesting…Ian says something like “I know that Dan and Dave are in constant communication with George about this stuff” (talking to Peter) and Peter also says, responding to a comment from Ian about the complexity of the storylines: “There is a plan people…a detailed plan, there’s method to the madness.”
Pigeon,
Hmmm…there’s been a bit of petulance and worrying over nothing here for sure, but absolutely nothing compared to the sheer bile and vitriol that is spouted over there.
As for publicity, I have no qualms about people visiting that place to see for themselves what it’s like. Indeed if they feel that people on that place have similar views to them I’d encourage them to stay over there.
Yes, because book Dorne was such a resounding success, right? Jeez.
Until the show came out, we couldn’t know for certain that the showrunners would decide to include the Red Wedding in the show itself or not. Or Ned’s beheading. Or Jon’s stabbing. Or the Purple Wedding. Or Khaleesi’s dragons. Or dracarys. Do you think that Unsullied would have felt spoiled if these moments had been shared with them before they happened on the show? You’re saying all of these technically wouldn’t be spoilers, right, since we couldn’t be certain they were going to be in the show? Using the above definition of spoiling, hearing that Snape killed Dumbledore as I was in line to purchase HBP wasn’t technically a spoiler since I didn’t know for certain if it was true or not. Right?
Well I did say some things about many people finding season 5 wasn’t the best season. Then I got shouted at by responses I got for hating ShowStannis, hating Dorne, hating the Sansa plotline, saying the writing was shit etc. Despite never having even mentioned them. I got pretty angry at that, so I felt the need to be even more careful now.
So I hope it’s not 80% being like that, lol. 😛
E: maybe I overreacted. I looked back and it was the Phantomstrife idiot who said this. Looking at his posts here, it seems like he’s just a person who is really bitter at GRRM for being slow, and instead decides to praise the show in the air while talking the books into the ground.
I think that the show will go on, so will the books, and when the show ends there will be a 3 hour movie to tie the two mediums together…..????? there’s lots of money to be made in the future!
Totally off topic, but is that Trystane sitting on the boat behind Jaime? Red clothes, dark hair, looking to the side..
Have you ever read one of those Rant and Rave threads? Nothing here is even close to that level of bad.
I’m thinking that 90% of what is in the show is closely related to what is happening in the books, especially 90% of the important events. Of course 90% of what’s happening in the books will not make it to the screen. And of course 90% of the dialogue isn’t verbatim or even close. I’m thinking 90% of the broad strokes would match up. Perhaps I am being too generous. I did wildly estimate, and it is hard to tie down what broad strokes are.
I would partially count Hardhome because Hardhome did happen in the books, without any key players present. I would partially count Sansa’s Season 5 storyline because it did happen to Jeyne with many of the key players being the same: Ramsay, Theon, Roose, Walda.
I’ve made some good posts in this thread, I deserve a t-shirt. Gimme.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
That’s not true. That’s the story the media likes to repeat cause it sounds cool, that they got asked one magic question about Jon Snow and that’s why he said yes. But George has said a few times that he asked them SEVERAL questions, the Jon Snow parentage question was one among them.
Found an exact quote, “I did ask them a few pointed question to determine whether they had actually read the books, and they gave me the right answers.” – GRRM
cosca,
It’s interesting because I came to the conclusion reading Dance that for Dany, this is a battle of principles against slavery. It wasn’t Martin’s intention to develop slavers beyond their system that is based on a repugnant concept. And all POVs are one sided in that manner. You’d hardly get an “objective” view from her or Barry or Tyrion on “how complex or amazing these people are even though they are slavers” since they all three detest what they represent from the get go. Being inside one’s head is very biased!
Jorah would probably be the slaver who’s trying to redeem himself in some way but other than that you cannot get more than the face of slavery.
cosca,
I think Pigeon is just tired of the name calling and constant harassment of anyone who dares to criticize the show HERE, if I’m reading correctly her comments in the last week. At Westeros the show, cast and crew cruel bashing it tends to be contained in some specific threads. Here it crosses threads and invades WotW at certain times with a vengeance.
I don’t mind the various opinions myself to be honest. I hate echo chambers. But some don’t like it and invite others out of the site like they own it. Which is just bad form.
Cumsprite,
You did 🙂 you are still bad tho.
TormundsWoman,
This is extremely generous. Every character we meet is cartoonishly evil or cartoonish, the descriptions are ludicrous (slaves on stilts, slaves with long necks and so on). If GRRM wanted there to be any complexity he could have hinted at it despite the POV structure, he did not. There isn’t a shred of nuance. With no other peoples do we get such sillyness, even when Tyrion meets the hill tribes.
El-Bobby,
I’m just repeating what D&D have said countless times in interviews. George has said they guessed correctl who Jon’s mom is. So there is a zero percent chance they change that in the show.
This is not a surprise. Sansa’s story has already veered widely off course. Do people really expect the Sansa in the books to rally the North and charge into the battle for Winterfell? Not happening. Sansa will get a different ending in the books. I think the shows ending for her will be kinder than in the books. She is certainly given greater importance in the show than the books like Cersei.
I suspect that Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran and Arya may get more or less the same ending with some differences with regards to relationships : As in who they marry etc.
Everyone else will have different endings.
Other Tyrells will do whatever Garlan does, if it’s relevant enough to be adapted.
I don’t think Shireen will unleash grayscale; her greyscale is cured, what we see are the after-effects. Isn’t it more likely that JonCon will unleash it? Jorah in the show.
As for Stannis, he’ll probably have a similar end to what we saw on the show, though probably more elaborate. I don’t know why you’d believe he will win the war against the Boltons (the first battle on the frozen lake against Freys and Manderlys, sure; Winterfell, though?). Isn’t that a bit delusional at this point?
Instead of the Griffs and Dorne taking on King’s Landing we’ll probably have just Dorne on the show, so that’s a spoiler too, though the circumstances will be simpler.
Pretty much every theorist predicts Barristan will die in battle, or betrayed by the Shavepate. I don’t know why believe he’ll win…?
As for what you wish for Sansa and Petyr, everything we know pretty much confirms we’ll see that in season six, so again it will be spoiled.
So… yeah. There will be spoilers. Of course there will. The context will be different enough in many cases so we won’t be able to tell which parts will contain spoilers and which won’t… But often we will be able to tell. Unless we exercise some astounding denial.
SerNoName,
I would add Cersei to those 5 as the characters who will most resemble their book fates.
Well… yes. I am one of those people; for me, it’s pretty much a given, except she will come from the Vale directly, but… yes, as I see it, Sansa and Petyr will rally the Valemen to invade the North, and then Sansa will unite the North (while in the show Petyr will rally the Valemen and Sansa will rally the North, separately). What do you expect Sansa will do in TWOW instead?
SerNoName,
If they decide to pair Jon and Dany (to satisfy the fans), without them being together in the books, will be awful.
I’ve argued with “book purists” more times than I can remember and nothing was gained except needless frustration and animosity. I changed no one’s viewpoint, and no one changed mine. So now I just don’t bother, and I think people on both sides could stand to do the same.
SerNoName,
I expect the novel Sansa to move North, eventually. The main difference is that she took a shortcut in the show. I do not see her charging into battle in either books or show.
This is not the ‘Rant and Rave’ echo chamber on Westeros.org. Posters are not going applaud and pat your back for making these supposedly ‘witty’ statements on here.
If the show was indeed not going to spoil the books, Dany would have already invaded Westeros. The fact that she is still puttering around in Essos with the Dothraki implies, to me at least, that they are sticking to George’s version for her character. If there is anything that fans wish for most ardently, its that Dany finally gets to bloody Westeros. But they are not changing that. Arya, Bran and Tyrion are still following their book plots. We are getting R+L=J. Where’s the difference?
Sister Kisser,
At the rate this thread is going, there will be no cake left in the world.
Should we switch to pie?
(Now is the time in the fandom where every word is parsed and battles are fought with brickbats.)
SerNoName,
…and Jon. Show’s pretty much following his story, and Littlefinger’s too, as Littlefinger is moving Vale pieces to get his paws on the North…exactly what he wants in the novels.
Most drastic change that I see in the trailer is the Jaime and Cersei reunion. Brienne’s fate, imo, will also be different.
Stannis can’t burn Shireen if he loses the Battle for Winterfell. It’s do or die for him.
Sansa is till in the Vale in TWoW where GRRM as started a new story arc for her. There’s a whole lot going on there. Plot to marry Harry the Heir, Shadrich the mouse has turned up to kidnap her, SweetRobin is getting poisoned to death etc. She is also supposedly training to be a ‘player of the game’ of which we have seen absolutely nothing.
While all this is going on, things are moving ahead in the North. The Boltons are on the verge of being wiped out. The North is already rebelling, Manderley is making his move, the clans are moving on Roose and we are getting Jon’s TWoW plot of being resurrected.
How in the world is Sansa supposed to wind up her Vale plot and then head North to join Jon and Stannis’ plot in the North?!! Unless GRRM devotes 20 chapters to Sansa in TWoW (Considering his current meandering writing style) and hold everything else in stand still, there is no way, Sansa can do any of what you mentioned. And devoting 20 chapters to Sansa is impossible in TWoW, considering he has to move the more important characters like Dany, Tyrion and Arya. Dany has to invade Westeros and and take on Aegon. Arya has to move North. The Others are already almost at the wall.
I doubt Sansa will ever go North. If she does, I think she and LF will turn up with the Vale army and food resources for the battle against the White Walkers. The North situation will already be resolved by then.
Only the ones from Yunkai. It’s supposed to highlight how incompetent and detached from reality they are.
The people from other places are more grounded even in New Ghis.
That looks nothing like Trystane to me.
Three reasons why they can’t / shouldn’t try to make a faithful adaptation of the books:
1. The books are not finished yet so the details of the plots are not all decided.
2. The books can go into more detail whereas the show has to streamline the storylines.
3. If the show was very similar to the books, it would arguably be less interesting / exciting to read the remaining books.
People who harp on and on again about bad pussy and 20 good men because it was awful. Bad pussy is just something you don’t want to make it into dialogue.
20 Good Men is just the perfect encapsulation that makes up D & D’s illogical storytelling.
Themes are for eighth grade reports- D & D
Remember how they made Loras’ arrest hinge on him having a Dorne shaped birthmark? What the fuck. That guy was his squire so it’s just common sense that he’d have seen him naked.
The Winterfell makes no goddamn sense in the show. LF hasn’t heard anything about Ramsay despite Ramsay flaying a noble family just south of Winterfell? Marrying Sansa to Ramsay?
Sansa agreeing to marry Ramsay is some godawful stupid shit. And Ramsay’s the goddamn main character of the Winterfell plotline and some Villain Sue.
Dorne was a complete mess. Nothing happened. Instead of adapting Ellaria or Arianne they adapted Darkstar and called him Ellaria, Prince Doran is a Lannister loyalist and the Sand Snakes are 3 terribly acted Dornish chicks with nipples on their breastplates.
Jaime does nothing and is still in love with Cersei. His character arc has remained stagnant since season 3.
Tyrion’s been neutered and white-washed. He’s bland now.
Varys is a stupid Targaryen loyalist. Why the hell would he support Viserys?
Jon’s season was decent but the offering of Winterfell and the election of the LC lacked impact. In fact it was anti-climatic which is a shame because both of those were great moments in the books.
Daenerys was turned into a mini-Joffrey. She’s forcing someone whose father she crucified to marry her and feeding people to her dragons. This isn’t a bad change in of itself but the show isn’t acknowledging that it’s Dany taking a dark turn. And Dany has almost no intimate moments anymore. She’s constantly stuck in “badass queen” mode.
Arya’s character is a mess. She’s just Maise Williams in Westerls since season 4.
Show Stannis’ arc in the show is pretty decent. They just rushed it at the end and turned his misfortune into a punchline in his last episode. Show Stannis only comes off a lot worse because Book Stannis is debatably one of the best characters in the books so replacing an amazing character with a decent character is going to irritate people.
Brienne didn’t do anything in the show. You can make a case that Brienne’s story was boring in the books but that had a character arc attached to it. TV Brienne doesn’t get a character arc. She just stands in front of a candle for most of the season and magically teleports to Stannis to finish him off.
Cas,
Too long. Didn’t read.
Cas,
I guess you’ve never heard of a retreat. If Stannis wins the battle for Winterfell and the support of the North, why then would he go back to the Wall and burn Shireen? Because the Wall falls? What is Jon’s story going to be then? Play second fiddle to the main character Stannis?
Don’t feed it. I have it blocked over at the other site too. it isn’t fooling anyone.
Considering there very likely won’t be a “Dream of Spring” ever published … It most likely won’t even matter how GRRM decided to end aSoIaF. Game of Thrones will be the only ending to this story, and thus the true ending. Sorry, book purists.
Cas,
Cool story, now you can go back to forever waiting for TWOW.
book Stannis-amazing character
book Jon-decent character???
LOL what is this travesty? BTW Book Stannis is a glorified extra, he’s a secondary character. The canon story will be rid of him soon enough.
Cas,
Damn…you just described aFfC/aDwD.
Kudos !
R+L is the most obvious thing to do with ToJ: but perhaps they will do something different. Who knows, perhaps they cut YG as a contingency plan in case GRRM “somehow” failed to finish Winter in time. HBO executives were upset that GRRM was not done with the series yet: that might simply be because they don’t like having a storywriter over whom they have no control, but it might be that there were going to be repercussions.
My thought is similar to one expressed above by a few posters: B&W are being supportive their unproductive friend by making it seem that it’s not as big of a deal that he’s so tardy. It is quite possible that they are dissembling: the details for many lesser characters (say, Sansa on down) will be different, and thus that the books will not be “spoiled”; indeed, they might be splitting even finer hairs and alluding to the book characters cut from the show completely.
I preferred Quentyn’s chapters to his sisters! That written, although the Quentyn chapters did not offend me, they were completely unnecessary.
As for Barristan, I wish that GRRM had gotten Tyrion to Meereen a lot quicker and obviated the need to make Barristan a faux protagonist PoV character.
I confess, I do find it distressing that there are people who think that Stannis is a main character of the books, or think that his character has an arc. The point of Stannis is to provide an unbending character so that other characters bend things out of his way.
SerNoName,
Not trying to pick on you or anything, but your post caught my eye as an example of the fallacy of making assumptions about where GRRM is going with this story. You say that he can’t devote time to X, because he needs to devote time to making Y and Z happen in the books. So, for example:
She does?
She does?
They are?!
I mean, I don’t know for sure – maybe Dany is going to fight Aegon (I think just as likely not, and he dies of greyscale or something before she ever reaches Westeros), but I by no means think it’s a sure thing.
Arya moving to the North? Even less of a sure thing. I have absolutely no idea where Arya’s story is going, and I wager a lot of people are in the same boat. And to say she has to do this because the Others are almost at the Wall?! As of when? What does that have to do with Arya?
I’m just saying that while all of these things are reasonable assumptions as to what’s going to happen, it would be erroneous to wring one’s hands as to how Martin is going to accomplish this, and how D&D are going to adapt it within a reasonable timeframe when, realistically, we don’t actually know what’s going to happen and when in the books.
Martin is my bitch,
Class is such a terrible thing to waste…
Blah, blah, blah, blah… Go back to wait ADOS, coming out the twelfth of never 😀
Cas,
For one “bad pussy,” I raise you one “Myrish Swamp” and a “fat pink mast.”
For the show’s Sansa in Winterfell plot, I raise you the novel’s fake Arya in Winterfell plot.
For the show Dorne, I raise you the novel Dorne, where, also, nothing happens.
For Jaime’s character arc remaining the same, I raise you Cersei of the novels, whose character arc turns her into a dumb villain who makes Snow White’s stepmother seem nuanced. Faced with her, of course Jaime leaves. Not so easy in the show, as Cersei is HUMAN.
You might believe Tyrion of the show is “bland,” but at least he doesn’t have Penny as a sidekick. He also gets a few good lines, which is few more than he gets in the novels.
Varys makes more sense as a Dany loyalist than as an Aegon loyalist. At least this way we don’t have to pretzel reason to explain why he has her marry Drogo. I think Varys as an Aegon supporter was a late addition, and it shows in the novels.
For the election scenario in the books, I raise you Hardhome. The show also cuts out Jon counting sides of beef for an entire chapter or two. Or three?
Dany is terrible, in the novels and in the show.
The show’s been faithful to Arya, which is good as her arc is one of the few things that kept my interest in Feast and Dance.
Agree on Stannis.
Brienne in the novels is a disaster. The endless questioning about a “maiden of thirteen years” drove me crazy, as did the endless questing in the wrong direction, the entire chapter spent on her shield, whatever. In the show, she does have a character arc: She gets stronger.
Then there are the shlocky resurrections the show mercifully cuts, like lady Stoneheart, Mance getting saved via glamor, Davos’s supposed death, Brienne’s cliffhanger while supposedly being hanged. Good decisions by the show on all of those.
But will it spoil the graphic novels? Won’t anyone think of the graphic novels??!!
[Faints]
Actually, I like the graphic novels, so I kid.
Maria,
Couldn’t agree with you more, Maria. And Gwendoline Christie is so terrific in the role. Icing on the cake, as it were.
Maria,
I agree with most of what you have to say but I won’t hear a word said against Penny.
He cannot just die of grayscale: that would make him arbitrary and pointless. Background characters like Aegon exist for one reason only: to cause issues for main characters like Daeny. That written, Aegon has to contribute to some arc for one of the main characters: it does not have to be Daeny.
What we do know by now is the over-arching story. Assuming that GRRM does not lose himself in more gratuitous world-building excursions, what Arya, Daeny, etc., do should feed into more Damned if you do, damned if you don’t experiences and their aftermaths. Now, this does not tell us what will happen: but we should be skeptical of possibilities that do not feed into that.
Martin is my bitch,
*smacks forehead* Why, no! Here I’ve been applying the concepts that I learned in junior high school when I should have been just doing… whatever it is that is being done.
😉
Cas,
Cas: People who harp on and on again about bad pussy and 20 good men because it was awful. Bad pussy is just something you don’t want to make it into dialogue.
20 Good Men is just the perfect encapsulation that makes up D & D’s illogical storytelling.
Themes are for eighth grade reports- D & D
Remember how they made Loras’ arrest hinge on him having a Dorne shaped birthmark? What the fuck. That guy was his squire so it’s just common sense that he’d have seen him naked.
The Winterfell makes no goddamn sense in the show. LF hasn’t heard anything about Ramsay despite Ramsay flaying a noble family just south of Winterfell? Marrying Sansa to Ramsay?
Sansa agreeing to marry Ramsay is some godawful stupid shit.And Ramsay’s the goddamn main character of the Winterfell plotline and some Villain Sue.
Dorne was a complete mess. Nothing happened. Instead of adapting Ellaria or Arianne they adapted Darkstar and called him Ellaria, Prince Doran is a Lannister loyalist and the Sand Snakes are 3 terribly acted Dornish chicks with nipples on their breastplates.
Jaime does nothing and is still in love with Cersei. His character arc has remained stagnant since season 3.
Tyrion’s been neutered and white-washed. He’s bland now.
Varys is a stupid Targaryen loyalist. Why the hell would he support Viserys?
Jon’s season was decent but the offering of Winterfell and the election of the LC lacked impact. In fact it was anti-climatic which is a shame because both of those were great moments in the books.
Daenerys was turned into a mini-Joffrey. She’s forcing someone whose father she crucified to marry her and feeding people to her dragons. This isn’t a bad change in of itself but the show isn’t acknowledging that it’s Dany taking a dark turn. And Dany has almost no intimate moments anymore. She’s constantly stuck in “badass queen” mode.
Arya’s character is a mess.She’s just Maise Williams in Westerls since season 4.
Show Stannis’ arc in the show is pretty decent. They just rushed it at the end and turned his misfortune into a punchline in his last episode. Show Stannis only comes off a lot worse because Book Stannis is debatably one of the best characters in the books so replacing an amazing character with a decent character is going to irritate people.
Brienne didn’t do anything in the show. You can make a case that Brienne’s story was boring in the books but that had a character arc attached to it. TV Brienne doesn’t get a character arc. She just stands in front of a candle for most of the season and magically teleports to Stannis to finish him off.
Cas,
Cas,
Linda, is that you?
Sigh. Waaaaaaay too many posts to read mid-work week, so I’ll just give my thoughts and move on.
This has never happened before, to my knowledge, that such a wildly popular book series AND wildly popular television series have come to a point where one must move the story forward without the other. Given this singular situation, I can honestly say that I don’t know whether or not I’ll like both, or like the one I see better than the one I read, or vice-versa, and I am skeptical that anyone else can definitively say one way or another is intrinsically better. Yes, GRRM was the introduction to the story; but D&D (and BCog) just happened to finish the slog to the end faster. They are very different media with very different storytelling priorities. I am honestly going to reserve judgment and just experience this new phenomenon organically and see how it plays out. Very few experiences in this world (especially on the downhill side of my time on this earthly plane) can be described as truly “new,” so why get all hot and bothered and shorten my life over it? I say: Keep an open mind and enjoy the ride!
*goes to my happy place*
Out of morbid curiosity, I went to http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/127559-book-spoilers-rant-and-rave-without-repercussion/ and got this response!
Sorry, there is a problem – You are banned from this site !!!
That’s interesting seeing I’ve never logged in! No fucking way am I going to sign up for membership if that’s the problem. I can just imagine being vetted/cross examined by Lindaaa or her minions to see if I have the required amount of bile/vitriol that I can spit out at others on that forum… LOL 😀
I may be reading too much in Benioff’s quotes, but it sounds like he’s read WINDS OF WINTER, or at least a good portion of it.
At this point I think we should be able to fairly predict where the characters are going. Arya is one of the first characters GRRM came up with (Sansa was in fact created as a foil to Arya) and GRRM has maintained that he has always known where she was headed. Her age was one of the issues he was struggling with . Over 5 books, he has equipped her with a vast skill set including assassination, survival, fighting skills, learning to play the game etc. One can assume he intends more for her than killing off some baddies and dying herself.
As seen from GRRM’s original outline, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran all play a role in taking on the Others. There are tight links between Arya and Needle, Arya and Nymeria and Arya and Jon. All connected to the North. At this point, I can be pretty much certain that Arya is headed North. Her FM plot is winding down. She may take a detour to the Riverlands and finish up some business first. But the ties between Arya and the North is very strong for her to not end up there. Once she hears what happened to her favorite brother, she is heading towards the wall.
Similarly Dany. Dany needs to invade Westeros. Soon. The books are nearly done and she is still stuck in Essos. GRRM has got her the ships (Victarion) and some good advisors (Tyrion), but she still has to wind up her shit and get moving. GRRM has said there will be a second dance of dragons. Which implies that it is Dany Vs Aegon. Or it will be Dany Vs Lannister or Dany Vs Tyrells. Either way a whole lot of shit has to go down when Dany invades Westeros and takes over KL
As for the Others. They are the ultimate big bad in the books. Last we heard, they had taken over Hardhome. Which is not that far from the wall. They are not going to sit around for a book doing nothing .With only 2 books to go, GRRM has to advance that plot line. Else the ultimate big bad amounts to nothing. He has promised that we will see more ‘beyond the wall’ which means more Bran. I suspect TWoW will be a very Bran heavy book as GRRM shifts the narrative focus from the political infighting to the impending war against the Others.
These things are fairly expected at this point and i think we will more or less get a summarized version of this from Bran, Dany, Arya and Tyrion on the show.
I will just say, that if Dany sets foot in Westeros in season 6, I will celebrate and call it the best season ever. I have been waiting for her to do this for more than 15 years.
I disagree.
We will certainly get some spoilers this year, but they are going to be hopelessly mixed with false spoilers. Except in the early part of the season where we can extrapolate from the books, it is going to be really difficult to guess which are which. The differences between the books and S5 was radically greater than what came before, and there is no unflapping the butterfly wings. S6 will be just as divergent, with many major character arcs only vaguely resembling GRRM’s outlines. So when we see something on TV this year, we can speculate that the odds of something like that happening in TWOW increases, but only so much…and maybe not even to the same character.
Ah, but will they really be “bad”? Or are we going to learn that they have legitimate grievances and/or needs?
That stated, I agree with your general line of thinking. I’d quibble about some of the details: but I would not accuse GRRM of malfeasant writing if it turns out that way, either! 😀
Well, this makes me a bit sad. I am a big fan of both books and show, and I really want to believe they’ll stay close, at least closer than in S5, but this news just contradict that. I mean, as a reader, you realise the books are better than the show (THAT HAPPENS WITH EVERY MOVIE, SHOW OR WHATEVER, it is just that way because of some things that can’t be pictured on TV, I’m not being purist) and its ok and I love the show anyway but I kinda want them to tell the same story. Imagine how this goes for George: his creation was made into a tv show which diverges more as it gets more popular and it will finish before he finishes his most important series.
I had no problem with season 5 at all, I loved it but I’d have prefered if it was a bit more faithful like s4. Some changes are understandable and ok (streamline of Tyrion’s journey, excluding many north, Essos and KL subplots,maybe even excluding Aegon IF he really isn’t important, leaving the inclusion of new Greyjoys for s6) but some others are bigger and annoy me a bit as the exclusion of Arianne(and changing the whole Dorne storyline), LSH(I still hope s6 lol), cuting the Sansa’s Vale storyline (which I’m really looking forward to in TWOW), but I get them and don’t start to rage, just forget and try to enjoy the show.
The problem would be with a much bigger change as if Stannis (I’m totally not a fan of him) is actually going to win the Battle for Winterfell in TWOW and the show just killed him to give that story to Jon, as some people theorised (I really hope that doesn’t happen). That’s not a small change and I wouldn’t understand it, because Stannis isn’t a new character or a minor one that can be sparred, as maybe Arianne was (or not, that’s to be confirmed in TWOW).
In conclusion: If the change really is because of time/relevance/budget/adaption to screen/inventing new filling material until TWOW is done reasons, I’m 100% ok, but if they just do it for the sake of telling a different story, I will be annoyed. But I suppose I’ll keep watching as I love the show anyway.
Cas,
I’m not going to quote that long list of show complaints (although I disagree with you on a few of them), but even if you accept all of these as flaws within the show …
Let’s not kid yourself. There’s tons of flaws within the source material as well. For every “bad pussy” there’s a “fat pink mast,” or better yet … “I am Darkstar, I am of the night!” For every “20 good men,” there’s a pointless and unnecessary surprise “resurrection.” (And seriously, at least Ramsay’s “20 good men” is somewhat plausible. That’s basically how the colonists won the American Revolutionary war, after all. What’s not plausible is that Stannis “I’ll break before I bend” would willingly look the other way and allow a known oathbreaker — Mance Rayder — to sneak into Winterfell when everybody knows that the punishment for abandoning the Black is automatically death.) For every scene of Brienne standing at a window doing nothing, there’s a Quentyn Martell’s completely pointless arc.
At least the show got rid of “where do whores go?”
I forgot to say something lol:
stop insulting to each other! I understand everyone in here but most people are just being mean with book readers who are dissapointed with this news, and, as me, just wanted to have a nice faithful adaptation.
Extremes are bad. It’s not ok nitpicking the show for some mistakes Linda level (until those mistakes are big changes as I said before) nor is it saying that George is a bitch and his books are shit or whatever. The show CAME from the books. And most people who have read the books think they are better than the books (again: I’m not throwing shit to the show nor being purist, just objective, I love the show anyway).
At this point, I think that people should just accept that the Coral Card was right.
LordGriffith,
The change is because there are no books left to adapt. I’d guess that George was only 50-60% finished with TWOW when D&D were writing season 6. In fact, GRRM mentioned last year that he finally figured out how to kill a character, and that it was no longer possible in the show. This was when D&D were writing season 6. George may know how he will end the series and where he wants to take the main 5-8 characters, but he doesn’t necessarily know how he will get there. So the show is pretty much in the same boat, which is why the journeys will be different, yet the ending will likely be similar.
Man…stories like this always seem to happen on days I’m stuck on planes. So much discussion missed, so many posts written from Airtrain. Apologies for not going through everyone else’s.
My first thought:
The exact same stuff could happen and I wouldn’t be spoiled at all, if it’s crazy enough. I was 99% sure Ned would die the same way (because, I mean, how could he not?), but that 1% caused a lot of silly doubt when I first watched Baelor. Knowing about the Red Wedding didn’t spoil the show at all, and probably did the opposite; during the lead-uo my heart was pounding harder than it ever has for TV.
If you simply cannot enjoy a story if you already know the plot, well, the show is going to ruin you a bit. But I agree with the sentiment that there’s way more to be pleasantly surprised by than plot points.
Also … Arya’s show plot is just so much more emotionally satisfying than Arya’s book plot. Consider why Arya got blinded in the two different mediums. In the book, Arya got blinded because she saw some random Night’s Watch hanging out in a brothel, and she decided to enact Westeros’s law that if a Night’s Watchman abandons his post, the punishment is death. (Thus “proving” that Arya had not given up her Stark self as she still cared about Westeros law.)
On the show, though, Arya got blinded because she stalked, tricked, and ambushed Meryn fucking Trant! She then crossed a name off her list, making it explicitly clear that she was not “no one” and was still Arya Stark.
The latter scene was far more emotionally satisfying, and one of many D&D creations that outperformed the source material.
Wimsey,
I don’t understand whats the coral card? Please don’t be mean english isn’t my best skill.
You mean Stannis is almost confirmed to die in TWOW during thr battle? That would make me relax like 1500 times lolll.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yeah, I get that, but If the plot points are going to be a bit weird as Jon’s assasination because some things (pink letter) that make them make more sense won’t happen in the show it would feel forced in a way.
Also, if the journey is completely different, then the story kinda is. I am the kind of person that loves some chapters in which nothing really important happen but are just interesting, and overall the whole chapters make the real story, both the build up and the climax. For example, benig nitpicky: I misseda bit of Cersei’s scheming, Aurane Waters, small council meetings, etc. last season.
My point is: its nice when the show reprents little moments that aren’t really important but more of character development and a connection with the reader/watcher. I feel we had lots of them in previous seasons but last season lacked many of them, altough it did include some others (kill the boy, the north remembers(barely), Arya and needle) .
Rella,
Hmm, so essentially from this point forward the show will only be loosely based upon Martin’s original Ice and Fire novels? Just how loosely, that’s what I’m worried about. And I’ve never even read them so I shouldn’t really care, yet I’ve allowed myself to get hyped from listening to all the people who have, so the expectations are there. I just hope that what Martin has built up in reader’s minds, the “guns that were hung” or however ya say it, do come into play for how the show runners complete this story.
I have to address this, because I see it spouted so often. There is this false belief that one form of telling a story is inherently better than another, and it is often viewed that the older form of media is clearly the more sophisticated one. No, books are not automatically better than TV shows. Movies are not automatically better than comic books. Poems are not automatically better than videogames. Now the different ways a story can be told each have their strengths and weaknesses, but to say the book is always better is wrong. It is your preference, nothing more.
FreeParking,
I truly understand that many times a media can exploit the best from another, but in many many many cases, most of them, that’s the way. And in this case, most of the people who have gone through both think that is the way. That said, its just an opinion as you said, but i adresed that to make it clear that I’m not throwing shit to the show.
Chad Brick,
Right now, reveals like
are only theories that are still being discussed and argued over by the fandom. The show will either confirm or deny some/most of these theories. To me, that’s a spoiler.
LordGriffith,
I’d say that people tend to be originalists, and books just tend to come first for complexity-of-production reasons. It’s very often the case that the cool “vision” of the first creator gets diluted (or outright lost), but this is where I point to stories that were written for various media by the same author (eg, Hitchiker’s Guide to the Galaxy). When it becomes obvious that the original-original story is the collected daydreams of the author, it’s a lot easier to see adaptation itself as an artform.
Well, to be fair, you really can’t adapt “loosely” or otherwise a novel that doesn’t exist as of yet…From George they have future storylines, an outline for Winds and an outline from Dream of Spring, and the “character endgames” and that’s it, that’s what they have available to adapt, aside from the leftover material from Crows and Dance; they don’t have any connecting tissue at all, D&D will have to come up with that.
You have evidence of this, I presume. People do tend to assume they are in the majority when it comes to opinions.
Davos’ Luck,
Did you have to quote him just to say that? Took forever to scroll past on my lousy phone.
RyanMcTwist,
Please reply. No need to qyote. Thank u.
SerNoName,
I think the second dance of dragons is between Dany and Jon.
HotPinkLipstick,
As long as it don’t taste like Freys! (or pigeons)
In fact, maybe we should all switch to pie, after we drop the bricks… we would be having much more fun.
Ygritte,
I honestly can’t think of a single reason for Dany and Jon to fight. He is the only family she has left, she’s not going to go to war against him. And if Jon ever rides a dragon, by the time that happens, the Others will be the number one priority, not the throne. He’s not going to go off to fight his only Targaryen family member when he knows the kind of threat the Others are.
Ashara D,
Always with an elegant voice of reason, Lady D.
I like this agnostic perspective.
The thing is, once they deceided to exclude Young Griff, including Arianne didn’t make much sense.
Not sure if anyone has posted this on another thread, but i’ve just come across this interview with Sophie Turner with WSJ Cafe in London talking a little about GOT season 6.
http://www.wsj.com/video/sophie-turner-wants-game-of-thrones-to-kill-sansa-stark/732EDC17-57F3-4A50-AC88-207E2C1A8361.html
As one of those snob book purist (i have to shamely admit), the resson why i get really mad with s5 because my favorite character didn’t get the exposure as much as they had in the books (and their storyline are altered to to support other character). But now, i have to understand that in this medium, the show has to focus on the major player and sadly my favorite characters are not one of them.
This news made me relief somehow because it kinda confirms that D&D make a fan fiction, which is not a bad thing. I love to read fan fiction especially when it’s potrayred with great actors and cgi 🙂
It’s amusing to read everyone interpreting these very broad statements into meaning exactly what they already believed all along! it’s kind of amazing watching so many people twist what the producers say into what they want them to say.
Ashara D,
Excellent perspective. Thanks!
Lut,
Fan fiction does not tell the same story as the original work. Adaptations do, or at least they usually do. The show is telling the same set of stories as are the books. As GRRM himself (and many other original authors of adapted works before him!) has stressed, you cannot tell the same story the same way on page and on screen.
LordGriffith,
In the books,
. Many fans tried to rationalize a conjecture that the letter was a lie: however, all of the putative evidences for this were basically imagined by fans rather than being in the books, or things from the books that had no bearing on the argument.
So, we had something in the book saying that X happened before Jon’s assasination, and the show gave us X before Jon’s assassination.
Part of the problem seems to be that many fans convinced themselves thst a secondary character (Stannis) actually was a main character. It seems a strange mistake to make, but there you have it!
It’s a not uncommon occurrence in Japanese anime adaptations of manga.
Ashara D,
I have read all the posts, which made me agree with you even more 🙂
El-Bobby,
Also, Jon would never try to claim the Throne. YG will. The dilemma YG creates for Daeny is that under primogeniture, YG is in the right. As a bastard (and proving that Jon is not probably is not possible), Jon would not: and Jon is the sort who errs on the side of honor.
So why so much discussion? this isn’t really news :). The stories started diverging ever since Season 1, it’s natural… the thing is in all the seasons after any change they made, they made a point in raining it back, in returning to the books. What this interview says IMO is that they’ll stop doing it. If they take a character on a different path, than they will keep him on it…. This could be VERY GOOD for the show, because honestly, a lot of things didn’t make sense when they tried to both keep the story from the book and add different things. It could also be bad if it means we’ll get stories like the one in Dorne, or if they’ll feel obliged to have a shocking scene every week.
So, nobody needs to worry, it’s not like they’ll radically change stuff from now on… nope, what they prepared, they’ll use…. the thing is, unlike the books, the show almost didn’t use foreshadowing, so there’s very little they need to do, with the exception of R+L=J. Even if a lot of people tend to downplay it on this site, the butterfly effect can wreak havoc on an adaptation. Well, Season 5 was the first time I felt that they changed so much, not only in the actions, but the way characters behave that even if they wanted to, they wouldn’t have been able to return to the story from the books like in previous 4 seasons.
Well, this interview shows that they don’t want to. The problem is, that in many ways just like GRRM, I’m sure they don’t exactly know where the story will take them. They’re not great when preparing for future seasons, they take it one at a time, they don’t even have the time to do it (although, that’s not exactly an excuse). We’ve seen this in countless interviews with D&D and Cogman. So, what I am worried is that even if they don’t intend at the moment to change the ending…. well, they might just have to later on!!
OH, and let’s not forget this is the movie industry, Hollywood. Don’t kid yourselves, one of the reasons for the message is hubris. They’ve just won the most awards yet for Season 5, I’m sure they want their work to be acknowledged without being tied to GRRM anymore!!! They’ve used the books as a crutch in some instances in the past, they feel confident enough not to do it anymore. Just my opinion
Wimsey,
For me,starting from season 5, i don’t think the show really tells the same story anymore, this is like i’m reading an AU! story where Sansa is married to Ramsay instead of Jeyne Poole or AU! Story where Ellaria took revenge instead of Arianne ect, which now i realize, it’s not always a bad thing.
Yeah, i have to accept that the show will be different. It just that, i’m not ready for my favorite characters storyline and characterization to be THAT different (unfortunately, my favorite characters are Theon, Stannis and Arianne. We don’t get to choose who we love) but now i realize, it have to be done. The show doesn’t have the luxury to give exposure to every characters. They have to make it effective
Lut,
Martin himself, said on his own blog, that there will be spoilers from WOW.
So no, this isn’t ”fan-fiction”.
Wimsey,
El-Bobby,
Who’s YG? And no Jon Snow wouldn’t fight Danaerys for the throne but many people here have said over and over that he won’t be revived as the same person and that the reason the actor and producers can say that he is dead is due to the fact that his name and or character he had will be “dead” and some kind of other “man” is born. Maybe this new man does want the throne. Perhaps because he sees nobody else fit to take it at a certain point in the story. Anyways, you’re probably right it’s just that I’ve sensed a showdown in the making for those two ever since Shireen talked about the book she read, Dance of dragons, to Stannis. Some would say well then that means Aegon, but show watchers haven’t even been introduced to him, yet we’ve been invested in Jon and Dany since the beginning.
Mihnea,
He also denies that the series is fan fiction himself.
I don’t really care either way to be honest. I know fan fiction is hated by a lot of people (including George), but I have absolutely no problem with it myself, especially if the end product is brilliant anyway.
Bloody hell Pinky, I need prior warning if you’re gonna post stuff like that. It’s worse than all the episode 9 shocks put together, even GRRM and D&D wouldn’t go THAT far, surely! *starts shaking at the idea* 😉
It is highly probable that Stannis will die in TWOW, but there will likely be some differences.
2: The books seem to be setting up a Stannis victory at the battle on the lake. Thus it is more likely that in the books, Stannis will have at least one if not a string of victories before loosing due to betrayal, deception, or God knows what. There are theories such as Ramsay himself or another assassin hiding among Stannis’s allied northern troops, or Ramsay being on to Manderly’s treachery and following beyond Manderly’s traitorous small army with a second, larger Bolton force that will beat Stannis with a counter-punch. I can see either of these turning into good writing/storytelling, as Stannis would appear to win, only to lose in the final page of a POV. And then you have to read five more chapters or so before you find out what happens next.
Ygritte,
”key elements that will be the same”
End of story.
El-Bobby,
Agreeded. There may be some kinda stand off before they hitch their wagons together. But remember they may have another brother/uncle in Tyrion – he with white hair and two different colored eyes.
http://www.wsj.com/video/sophie-turner-wants-game-of-thrones-to-kill-sansa-stark/732EDC17-57F3-4A50-AC88-207E2C1A8361.html
New interview with Sophie on Season 6, jumping off the Winterfell wall, and her future.
She says that this season will have red wedding levels of shock, that she wants Littlefinger to win the iron throne, and she doesn’t want her character to survive until the end.
Entertainment Weekly‘s covers for the GOT edition, featuring the ladies of the show:
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/03/24/game-thrones-ew-cover
Half of them are wearing last season’s costumes, weirdly.
Zombies That Were Promised,
The story is meandering convoluted mess that would be impossible to tell faithfully on TV nor would it be any good if they attempted to do so. The story barely works as a book series anymore let alone a TV series with around 20 separate plot lines. They have to remove or alter many of these plot lines and once they do that it effects everything else. I always knew after ASOS the story would be more inspired by the books rather than based on.
Lut,
Last season told a story about “Kill the child, let the adult be born.” That was the same story as the Crows/Dragons books told. Sansa’s role was different: she had no role in the books, but she did on TV. Ellaria had no role in either: she was a foil for Jaime’s role on TV, and an incidental character in the book. GRRM seemed to try to make Arriane a contributor in the books, but (for various readons) he failed to pull it off.
Cas,
Eye roll.
Winter rose, above comment is exactly that! LOL
Chad Brick,
#1 is incidental to the outcome.
#2 is incorrect. The book is setting up where the battle will occur; it is not setting up the outcome. It is the difference between arranging a sports contest at a location and arranging the outcome of that contest.
phantomstrife,
Exactly this
JamesL,
Well, the Narrative is a meandering mess, or parts of it are. But being faithful to the story almost necessarily means being unfaithful to the narrative (and usually vice versa) when you adapt a story from one medium to another. Again: sharks and Tyrannosaurs!
Why are they wearing Season 5 costumes?
Sean C.,
I love the focus on the strong and powerful women of the show 🙂
Awesome!
Jack Bauer 24,
Because season 6 costumes are spoilers! hahaha
___
love this!
“The women are rocking this season — and I’m not just saying that because they’re on your cover,” says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) always does, but also Brienne (Gwendoline Christie), Arya (Maisie Williams), Sansa (Sophie Turner), Cersei (Lena Headey), Margaery (Natalie Dormer), and other characters too, like Yara (Gemma Whelan). They power this season. It’s organic to the storytelling, yet a radical shift. It’s the women that are the hope that we’re watching as the chess pieces move this season, and it’s very exciting.”
So I found this article in my Google app, and I’m all, is it April 1st? Uh, nope.
Are we being trolled by the site or by George? It’s the site, right? Five full minutes. GRRM citing the show not the books.
Ah, it is a satirical site. That explains it all.
No Melisandre? Hmm.
All the ladies look terrific.
Regarding the spoiling issue, it’s more likely D&D meant spoiling the TWOW reading experience, not the plot/story of the book itself. That the book will have its own surprises/twists/unique moments that the show won’t have, and it’s enjoyable on its own terms. The show is going to spoil the overall story, it’s unavoidable.
(GRRM will probably need eight books to finish. TWOW will get published, but the book conclusion is a question mark. At this point I want more Dunk & Egg than ASOIF.) 🙂
Sean C.,
X (1999)
Comes to mind
How many different endings had the story up to now? And the Manga on permanent hold
Deesensfan,
Singles out Emilia as one who “always” rocks a season. To each their own but I will never understand all the Dany admiration. Lena’s Cercei and Maisie’s Arya have always made more of an impact as great acting for me. Anyways, I got a subtle feeling several months ago that the story is heading down the “girl-power” road. So, every female has to be strong and powerful…sthat even gentle lady Sansa is going to be a leader and take charge? I hope that means using her mind and manipulation tactics as opposed to rallying bannermen and leading a charge into battle lol. Watch, by the end all the men save Tyrion are killed off and he, Dany and Sansa ride the darn dragons into victory, lol.
Wimsey,
Oooh, yes of course, I’ve read the books in spanish so some words are not exactly the same, you see.
FreeParking,
Well, it isn’t as if I have a poll, but on every site/twitter I’ve been, most people who have seen both think the books are better, and that’s not at all a bad thing for the show.
Anyway, I tried to make my point, it doesn’t matter to keep talkikg about it
Ygritte,
I love Emilia and Dany
But I agree on the rest of your post. I think we are going to see mind power by Sansa this year, as well as Dany (that’s all she has with those crazy men shes with)
Bahaha imagine that!
The biggest issue with the “Pink Letter” in the novels is that the timeline is all screwed up. In Jon Snow’s timeline, he received the Pink Letter right before his assassination. But then GRRM revealed an unreleased chapter from tWoW that shows:
So the question is, which happened first — the published sequence of the Pink Letter, then the unpublished tWoW scene — or the unpublished tWoW scene, then the Pink Letter?
If the first sequence is true, that means the Pink Letter is fake, hence the belief of so many fans that you outlined in your post. The show, however, seems to show a different sequence of events, and perhaps that is the more chronically accurate sequence.
Either way, from a dramatic and emotional standpoint, Book 5 and Season 5 had to end in the same place — with Jon Snow’s stabbing and death. If the second sequence of events is true — the unpublished tWoW chapter, then the Pink Letter — then the show producers had to place the “Battle of Ice” and its aftermath before Jon Snow’s stabbing, so they had to come up with a different reason for that to happen instead of the Pink Letter (and is also part of the reason why that whole sequence seemed so rushed on the show).
But again, I can hardly fault the book readers for thinking the Pink Letter was fake. They think that way because that’s the sequence of events that GRRM wrote.
I don’t know what countless interviews you’re referring to, but all the interviews I’ve seen with D&D always emphasize that they have a plan, that they know where they’re going, they know what the “endgame” is, etc. The actors seem to think so; see for example the Peter Dinklage-Ian Glen commentary on 5.09 on the Blue Ray. HBO executives that were present at the 2013 story meeting with George and D&D would also be surprised at the sudden lack of a plan, given that the whole point of that meeting was planning what to do if the show passed the books. George himself on the Not a Blog comment said that there would be spoilers. Heck, substitute “key elements will be the same” (what they said now) with “key plot points will be the same” (which is the standard previous response) and they basically said what they’d said before, just rephrased…
Jack Bauer 24:
I don’t know how the red wedding can be topped really. Seeing as how that event laid, at the time, the surprise foundation that would inform of the show’s premise that “nobody is safe.” Unless she’s saying that other major characters, who after all this time we got convinced were “end game,” bite the dust. Curious that she doesn’t want her character to survive. Nobody wants to see Sansa killed off but Sophie herself haha. Er, maybe there’s something about the “end” that’s ominous enough she’d rather spare Sansa the experience!
Shy Lady Dragon,
Have we been introduced to him yet though? I don’t recall anyone by that name. Is he pretty important in the novel?
GRRM confirmed that the Theon chapter happens prior (which only makes sense based on the events depicted).
In all likelihood the show cut that character and subplot, given that Varys is a Danny supporter in the show…
George is upset about the show passing the books and they’re trying to keep the mystery alive, for him. The best way to do that is to keep people guessing about what is and isn’t canon. I’m not sure how well they will be able to hold onto this if something is controversial (see Shireen) but it’s a nice gesture by them. Many of the details won’t be the same, not to mention the dialogue, but we already knew this. We’re definitely still going to get spoiled on big stuff.
This is just the same as George Martin already said and what we already know. The show is divergent from the books on a lot of things, but will have to include many of the same major milestones. It’s not big news.
LordGriffith,
Also, “Carta rosada” would not be in the Spanish version: that is a term that fans devised! (And it’s very possible that Spanish speaking fans devised a different idiom than did English speaking ones.)
I think that it is more a case of what fans think. For one thing, book readers have not read any later Stannis chapters: only the fans who seek out GRRM’s online material have done that. But the other thing is that you always get portion of fandoms who go out of their way to find excessively complicated explanations for events. However, this forgets that if a tale is told well, then the story and plot will make sense to someone who watches/reads the tale only once.
As for the timeline, GRRM sets makes the plotlines asynchronous so that key events co-occur at the same times in the story: and that means that they occur at different times in the plotline.
But that would not make GRRM happy: he keeps stressing on his blog that there is no such thing as “canon”: the only “real” thing is the story, and the details themselves rarely mean much for the story. To riff on his example, the “canon” for Scarlett O’Hare’s husbands or children are the same: she never existed and thus the “real” answer is zero. Something that fans often do not get is that it can exasperate authors when we focus on their trivial details and ignore the stories that they are devising! (Tolkien referred to his fans as his “Dreadful Cult” because of this!)
We don’t know. He was of false-importance to Tyrion’s story in Dragons: Tyrion began to rebound in his presence, but then that was all wiped away after Jorah capture Tyrion. GRRM is setting up some plot stuff, and it probably will be an important story issue for Daeny, as YG will present some real moral dilemmas for her. More and more, I am beginning to suspect that this will be a needless diversion in the books: but hopefully my suspicions will prove false. (If the show was going to include YG, then this would have been the year that it would have introduced him: Winter will be the first story in which the character might be important, although as a plot element, not a character in and of himself.)
Of course, I do wonder if Jon will turn out to be YG instead of who we think that he really is. This could be why the HBO execs were ill-pleased at GRRM’s tardiness: it might be that GRRM has clauses stating that certain things must come out in the books first, and this would be high on such a list (if it exists). Back in 2008, that had to be a no-brainer: but now it is a no-brainer in the opposite direction! Of course, the HBO execs might have been ill-pleased simply because they are stuck with a tardy story-writer that they cannot fire, and they would not be used to such things!
I doubt the Weirwood-tree can look inside the actual ToJ. It will be an other hint for the theory but no proof.
Wimsey, it’s also because of this response by Martin at DANCE’s release:
EW: I also wasn’t sure whether Ramsay was telling the truth in his letter when he said the battle had already been fought and won, whether we were supposed to take that as gospel.
MARTIN: My readers should know better than to take anything as gospel, unless they see it for themselves, and even then I do sometimes use “unreliable narrator.” No. They should not take that as the truth. What about Mance Rayder, did you think he was really dead?
http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g
Mitch,
OMG Mitch, you lifesaver, you!
I have searched for that interview so many times when people kept saying the Pink Letter is real (as in It tells the truth about the outcome of the battle)!!! But I forgot what year it was and to what mag it was given and there were many of them. Bookmarked.
Thank you!
Hmmm…the Needle of a compass always points North…mere coincidence?
Luka Nieto,
The Garlan Tyrell was a joke, Luka.
Shireen is still possible but I should mention that while I think Greyscale is mentioned and clues are dropped many times about it, it IS a theory and one that amuses me to support. Less crackpot in my eyes than many others but if Marin chose to take that road it won’t be an ass pull.
The rest though do have set up in the books, I do hope to read them and I don’t understand why you’d automatically call it delusional.
Ramsey has played false before with Theon, a nut job and not entirely reliable. Even if Martin had not given the interview where he suggests people should not take his latter to Jon as gospel I would still think it unlikely that his forces that are outnumbered would so easily defeat Stannis. Yes, Stannis’ s forces were weakened and he was stuck but so were the Bolton ones at Winterfell. No one trusted no one and they were just as on edge as Stannis’ army.
I’ve seen the show and read the books, and I think that the book handles certain aspects better than the show, while the show handles other aspects better than the book.
Examples of the book being better than the show:
Sansa’s motivation for staying behind during the Battle of Blackwater. In the show, it doesn’t really make sense why Sansa would spurn the Hound’s offer — in the books, we see that she had a back-up plan with Dontos and decided to stick with that instead.
Danys’ visions at the House of the Undying … actually that whole Quarth storyline was better in the books.
Tyrion’s motivation for snapping and killing Shae / Tywin. (While it still made sense on the show, the scene was much more powerful in the books … and the book didn’t have that endless scene about that cousin who crushed beetles.)
The various prophecies (Danys’ three betrayals, the Prince Who Was Promised, etc.) and the many flashbacks that fleshes out the history and backstory of the series.
But there are also things that the show did better than the book series. Things like the removal of stupid, repetitious phrases (words are wind, where do whores go, etc.), the minor rearranging of events (how Oberyn agreed to become Tyrion’s champion for his trial by combat made more sense on the show than in the books), or even major character beats (Arya killing Trant instead of some random Night’s Watch escapee). Also, the show had Hardhome, which happened “off-screen” in the books.
In my eyes, the book and the show are two different versions of the same story. They’re both excellent in their own way. The difference is, the show is actually sustaining and building momentum while the books are meandering and losing momentum. And the show will actually show the ending of this story, while we’ll never see that in book form.
So the show wins.
This one makes all the difference though to me. Which is why the title and the article make sense to me.
Look, if you change the context, and you only keep certain key elements, you are basically changing the story, while still reaching the same place.
I understand you don’t think it so, but for me it is like food. You have milk, flour, eggs, water, sugar, salt – you can make bread or you can make cake layers. You change one key elements percentage and you’ve got desert! They both get in the same place though: on the table at dinner and eventually in your stomach. Same endgame.
Yeah, pretty much.
Seriously, GRRM would never have said that if he was doing that. I, for one, had thought that the letter was wrong: Ramsay had defeated some but not all of Stannis’ forces, and because he would have learned about things such as the sword, etc., from torturing Mance, he could have basically “rounded up”: no doubt they would find the sword and his body eventually, but they had not yet.
Anyone who would not choose “books and films/shows are not comparable” is not qualified to vote in such a poll…..
😀
Ygritte,
He didn’t appear in the show and likely never will.
The comparison that I most like uses basic ecological niches (or trophic categories, really). Story is basically like trophic category: a gestalt feature in which the parts amount to something more than the sum. However, both trophic strategies and stories must work in their medium. A shark is a great apex predator: strong jaws, sharp teeth, amazing sense of smell, excellent eye sight, great mobility, etc. Gee! you think: I want a Land Shark!
But a shark on land, despite having great predatory adaptations, dies. Why? Well, because it is set up to live in water. However, if I give you a Tyrannosaurus rex, then I’ve given you the terrestrial equivalent. Many key features are the same: but gills, fins, inability to retain salt or water, etc., all are replaced.
In many ways, what we label “purists” are those people who do not like the Tyrannosaurus because it’s not a fish. And that’s fine: after all, we have ichthyologists as well as paleontologists. However, in many cases the complaints become equivalent to insisting that a great white shark and a Tyrannosaurus cannot both be considered apex predators, because “to them” an important part of an apex predator is having fins, gills, etc. But those are to live in water: and thus as different from basic trophic strategy as plot or narrative are from story.
My bet is that whatever fish GRRM has gestating, we’ll get the dinosaurian or mammalian equivalent thereof. But the key thing is: if you do not recognize that B&W have given us an apex predator just as BRRM has given us an apex predator, then you are paying too much attention to fins and gills, and not enough to what it’s doing!
#1: Only if one buys your attitude of “The only things that matter are whose butt winds up on the Iron Throne and the general fate of the Big Five Characters. All else is irrelevant detail, including those characters journeys, interactions, and choices”. I emphatically reject such thinking, but we’ve been over this before.
Chad Brick,
Yeah sure! Stannis nearly won the battle of Blackwater, despite the fact that large percent of his army was blown up by wildfire. And he defeated the wildling army which was ten times his size. Sure, that really is a complete loser and incompetent battle commander. And if you haven’t noticed that Stannis was a shell of a man after sacrificing his daughter and was probably already suicidal, I advise you to rewatch the show.
“Stannis is like iron. He will sooner break than bend”
Re: Stannis; if you watched the “after the show” comments by D&D after 5.09, it’s heavily implied there that Stannis will face the same or at least an equivalent moral choice at some point in the books.
Josh L.,
While I like your analysis there is one element you haven’t taken into account. The series often condenses so Stanis’ end on screen maybe the culmination of several battles. Perhaps Stanis dies at the second battle in which Jon turns up with the wildlings and the Rememberists. Perhaps he lives and learning who Jon is and will become a general in his army?
The siege at Riverrun this series seems to be an example of this, combining the book 4 chapters with a battle not yet fought. This may also include forces not yet fully fleshed out on screen like the brothers without banners and perhaps even LSH. This appearance of course depends on any part she might play in the end game.
I don’t see this happening unless of course LSH’s hanged men will because they have died be resistant to WW resurrection. Perhaps the drowned men of the iron islands will play a similar part. I also think there may be a roll for LSH to play or at least a redemption to be had when she recognizes Jon is not Ned’s bastard son. Could be an interesting scene.
Josh L.,
Back to my earlier point Arya killing Trant is combination scene, the killing of the Bard who travels with Sam and the killing of Rafford the Sweetling from the sample chapter that includes the theater troop featured in season 6.
instead of some random Night’s Watch escapee).
I fully noticed Stannis’s turn toward suicidal depression. It was precisely what annoyed me. Blackwater? He screwed up. The Wildlings? The show made it look easy and nothing more than a matter of showing up with superior tech. After that, every military move he made was incompetent, from lingering at the Wall for extra Drama(tm) to failing to secure his own camp even minimally. How is that like anything in the character in the books? D&D also gave him clear numerical superiority over the Boltons, a method of escape (after all, the wall is just a hip, hop and a quick pony ride away, and equipped with a WallMart capable of feeding thousands, despite the TV Watch being a tenth the size of the book Watch), and gold.
I think you are confused about Stannis is attempting to do. Remember, it is save the realm to get the throne, not vice versa. Suiciding his troops in that case is not “iron”. Defending the wall is.
Somewhat. Show Arya killing Trant replaced Book Arya killing the bard (aka the random Night’s Watch escapee) as proof that Arya had not given up her true self and was the reason why Arya went blind.
On the other hand, the show scene where Arya killed Polliver to get her sword back was a combination scene that you’re talking about. It combined elements of the book Tickler / Polliver killings (Arya retaining Needle) and the book Rafford the Sweetling killing (Arya making her victim repeat the words he used when killing Lommy).
George,
Of course there will be spoilers, I didn’t say otherwise. But, have they ever written scenes 2 seasons in advance? Nope, never. Yes, they know where the story is going, just like GRRM does… but when you really get into it and start writing, well… things can change drastically. And the interviews I mentioned were the ones related to their writing process. Take the one with Cogman about the Sansa scandal, they thought why not combine the stories and bring her to Winterfell. Alright, but they didn’t plan this in advance since season 2, nope the idea took shape later on… and it is a big change. Or a smaller example: Olly, who began as just an orphan, an extra, and than at the suggestion of Hill he kills Ygritte. That’s not a drastic change for Season 4, but this lead to him being in the last scene of Season 5 and him being the one to give the killing blow to Jon Snow.
Any change leads to other changes…. unless you already have written a very specific plan for each character going forward it’s unavoidable. And they don’t have the time to think things through in so much detail. This has nothing to do with spoilers for the books, which will abound.
Wimsey,
Cool, thanks. I keep hearing about this character as if he;s important but was pretty sure he’s not mentioned in show and thought maybe he will be introduced later 🙂
Lord Parramandas,
Don’t bother with Chad. He is among the nastiest purists here.
Let WOW crush his dreams.
Ygritte,
This would have been the season to ontroduce YG to the show. Next year should be too late: we really should be well into Final Act by then.
That written, I do wonder if one of the effects of GRRM having not finished Winter will be that he has always been on the show….
Josh L.,
Actually, her killing Trant seems to be more of a replacement for a Winter scene than a replacement of a Crows scene.
Wimsey,
totally off topic Wimsey but i have been wanting to ask this to you ..
how did harry potter fans felt about Voldemort not being the only one who can fly without broom or any other means in the movies
Josh L.,
Yes but the killing of Trant is done in the context of Lord Tyrell going to the iron bank to secure funds for the Lannister cause and hence combines Dareon and the Sweetling’s death but with Harys Swyft in Lord Tyrell’s place – or is that the other way around since the book is not yet published?
Wimsey,
I agree but the first killing gets her blind so it serves both story strands without the nice glass of milk.
ENOUGH with the ad hominem attacks! By your own persistently hostile and aggressive behavior here, you forfeited the right to call anyone else out for being ‘nastiest’ long ago.
Would you knock it off with your passive aggressive asides about other posters? It’s wearing thin.
It’s amazing that of the 400+ comments only a handful really understood what D&D said…it makes me lose faith in the human race!
I mean how can they understand all the nuances of both books and series if they can’t even grasp a straightforward sentence?
What didn’t surprise me though is that the first one to get it is our basque voice of reason, as always 😉