The Winds of Winter will not be published before Season 6

twowAlthough that was certainly the plan of George R.R. Martin and his publisher (not to mention our hope), we won’t read Book 6 ahead of Season 6 of Game of Thrones. In the last of a series of yearender posts on his Not A Blog, GRRM tackles the issue.

Cold, hard facts: The Winds of Winter is not finished, although a lot has been written. Says Martin: “But there’s also a lot still left to write. I am months away still… and that’s if the writing goes well”.

He reveals that he was first planning to be done by Halloween, and then by the end of the year, which would still give the publishers enough time, with an accelerated turn-around schedule (similar to when A Dance with Dragons was done). Clearly, that did not work out.

But I won’t make excuses. There are no excuses. No one else is to blame. Not my editors and publishers, not HBO, not David & Dan. It’s on me. I tried, and I am still trying. I worked on the book a couple of days ago, revising a Theon chapter and adding some new material, and I will writing on it again tomorrow. But no, I can’t tell you when it will be done, or when it will be published. Best guess, based on our previous conversations, is that Bantam (and presumably my British publisher as well) can have the hardcover out within three months of delivery, if their schedules permit. But when delivery will be, I can’t say. I am not going to set another deadline for myself to trip over. The deadlines just stress me out. I am going back to my stance from last March, before all this. It will be done when it’s done. And it will be as good as I can possibly make it.

Hear Marko Roar: Interestingly, the rumours and optimistic musings that we may yet get to read the next book before April were not unfounded, but the plans fell through as they are wont to do. Will the show “spoil” the novels? Well, that’s inevitable, at least when it comes to the plot’s major beats (which matter most), and we have been preparing for it mentally for a long time. Still, due to the divergences between the books and the adaptation (George goes into more detail on the matter in his post), there should be a whole lot to enjoy and I am looking forward to Winds just as much as I always have.

1,022 responses

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    1. My first Hodor.

      I’m not surprised at all by this news. Not a book reader, used to wish I had read them but now glad I didn’t…the wait for an ending is too long.

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    2. It was a very honest piece and well-worth a read. It’s obviously been very difficult for him to realise and admit that the show would catch up to the books. Props to him for doing so, truly, even though it doesn’t change that Winds isn’t done yet.

      He also discussed that readers and watchers are able to enjoy both book and show.

      I know what the next question will be, because hundreds of you have already asked it of me. Will the show ‘spoil’ the novels?

      Maybe. Yes and no. Look, I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has. The show moved faster than I anticipated and I moved more slowly. There were other factors too, but that was the main one. Given where we are, inevitably, there will be certain plot twists and reveals in season six of GAME OF THRONES that have not yet happened in the books. For years my readers have been ahead of the viewers. This year, for some things, the reverse will be true. How you want to handle that… hey, that’s up to you. Look, I read Andy Weir’s novel THE MARTIAN before I saw the movie. But I saw the BBC production of JONATHAN STRANGE AND MR NORRELL before I finally got around to reading Susanna Clarke’s novel. In both cases, I loved the book and I loved the adaptation. It does not need to be one or the other. You might prefer one over the other, but you can still enjoy the hell out of both.

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    3. And wow, a projected 3 months to go from manuscript to hardcover release! I know the the demand for Winds is huge, but that’s impressive. If they needed to fit editing in there and ensure it was done properly, they’d be working day and night.

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    4. Well disappointing but not surprising.
      In a way having the show answer ‘what happens next’ could make the books more enjoyable: it may be easier to concentrate on some of the wider detail without feeling impatient for the next plot development.
      One thing I wonder under this process is while the show has the detail of what happens, will we be getting some of GRRM’S great lines from his manuscript into the show?

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    5. Isabelle,

      Yeah, he gets my respect for that. Glad he put the issue to rest for now. Not sure all of what else has been behind the delay but I do know if I were a writer and felt pressured or stressed to hurry it up that would affect my creativity and the final result in a big way. I’m curious though…how long an interval was it between the first 3 books?

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    6. Well, shit. I really would’ve preferred to read the Winds of Winter before the show spoils a lot of it. I think it will be pretty frustrating to watch season 6 and try to guess what is book canon and what is not. But George is under so much pressure that I kind of feel bad for saying that.

      Well, at least now there’ll be even more to discuss and debate about after every episode!

      Happy New Year to everyone anyway!

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    7. At this stage it was really starting to become inevitable that TWOW would never be out before season 6. But it is really good to see that GRRM give such an in-depth and open answer about his progress and struggles with the book.
      Now he will once again be free to write without the added pressure of that looming deadline. I would presume that these books are quite complicated write, therefore it always seems understandable to me that he takes his time.
      The book will be out when it gets done, and in the meantime we can now watch the show again without knowing or presuming what should be happening.

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    8. Ygritte: Respect to him for saying that. Glad he put the issue to rest, for now. I know if I were a writer and felt pressured or stressed to hurry it up that would affect my creativity and the final result in a big way.

      Completely agree. Deadlines suck in general, but he’s facing a bit more than normal in terms of scrutiny!

      Ygritte: I’m curious though…how long an interval was it between the first 3 books?

      According to Wikipedia, he started writing ASOIAF in 1991 and the first book was published in 1996. The second and third followed in 2-year intervals.

      A Game of Thrones (1996)
      A Clash of Kings (1998)
      A Storm of Swords (2000)

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    9. ”It does not need to be one or the other. You might prefer one over the other, but you can still enjoy the hell out of both.”

      My opinion exactly, very well said. (won’t stop crazy people being crazy, but it’s a very resonable/moderate stance)

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    10. It’s his life’s one of the biggest work….I think he wants to be patient and give us the best possible story in best possible way….He can write in his own pace in his own way. …I started reading the books after I started watching the show …and it’s so awesome I can visualise things..more clearly. ….so I will read the book whenever it’s published. ..even if it is published after the show concludes ( although I would love to read it earlier than that )…….

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    11. 16th century. Regarding the painting of the Sistine Chapel.

      Julius II: “When will you make and end?”
      Michelangelo: “When I’m finished.”

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    12. It was a sad post from Martin really. You can tell he is disappointed with himself and more or less depressed about the whole thing… and once the show has passed the books, there will be even less reasons to write as fast as he can.
      Anyway, for me, the answer to “will the show spoil the books?” is a huge YES. All those characters Martin lists whose fates have been different in the books and the show are tertiary characters at best. But what most people mean with “spoil the books” is: will the show reveal the fates of Jon Snow, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Cercei, Jaime? Will the show portray the second (Dany’s Dance of Dragons) and third (Fight againts White Walkers) conflicts before the books? Will the show spoil how the story ends? the answer is YES.

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    13. To be honest, I always tought WOW will come out, eventually. Definetly not before S6 tough, never belived that for a second and I have doubts it will be realesed in 2016.
      2017 tough sounds resonable.

      It’s ADOS that I have very little faith it will ever be realesed.

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    14. Isabelle,

      Yes but he barely wrote anything between 1991-1993.At the end of 1993 he had around 150 pages writen, 13 chapters I believe, and the outline he was following was VERY different from the finished product. And in less than three years, the first book came out, perfectly finished.
      Don’t fool yourselves. Having more time to write the books doesn’t make them better. (in fact, any writer who needs to eat has to write books “fast”). And the truth is, he still needs to write a seventh book, AT LEAST! The situation doesn’t look good.

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    15. smitzzz,

      Some of the contents on r/asoiaf while they were waiting for this update post were truly hilarious to read.

      LordDavos,

      I guess we will never know that until either D&D or GRRM address this. But I hope the showmakers had access to the TWOW manuscripts while working on S6.

      Mihnea,

      Mihnea,

      Yeah, I dont think we will get TWOW before 2017. And ADOS will probably never get finished, atleast not by Martin.

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    16. oier,

      All true statements, though I think it’s fair to say he was in a very different headspace back then. He’s facing wildly differently levels of pressure and speculation now, and it’s clearly having an effect. It would on most anyone.

      That he’s fully aware of it and still determined to complete the book–and in a way that passes muster–is a good thing.

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    17. As said before, everything related to Brann is a Winds of Winter stuff, so I assume that is what GRRM was referring to.

      Jaime seems to be heading into his Feast for the Crows storyline, but Asha, Theon and Sansa are totally messed up.

      Not to mention the Dumb and Dumber completely screwed over King Stannis.

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    18. Isabelle,

      I totally agree. It was honest and he’s absolutely right. I also watched Jonathan Strange on BBC, then read the book right after. I really enjoyed them both and the order didn’t affect anything. I have several friends who swear up and down that they won’t watch season 6 if TWOW wasn’t out first and it’s silly as shit. As a book reader, one of the exciting things about watching the show for me is seeing how the show handles the changes during the adaptation. And hey, I’ll be the first to admit that some of the changes were horrible
      Especially with some of the character development. But in way, the book readers should be rooting for the changes at this point. It’ll make more TWOW exciting to read, especially if season 6 isn’t that great. Not that I’m hoping for season 6 to suck haha.

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    19. I’m so over the series, books and show, for different reasons, but as an overzealous fan once upon a time, I just can’t help but stick around and see this thing through.

      I really sympathize with George’s plight.
      I’m both excited and terrified D&D is giving us the ending of the story.

      And on another note I’m a bit frustrated there ARE fantasy/sci-fi series out there waiting to be adapted, but the gods have willed ASOIAF – an uncomplete series – to become a pop culture phenomenon. One that gets a faithful adaptation in the first 4 seasons, and then just becomes radically different in the last 3-4. I feel a bit cheated, IMO.

      Oh well…it’s just fiction. My life must go on.

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    20. Respect to George for telling us the score. In truth I am not surprised just disappointed, I was hoping Winds would be out before season 6 goes out. However my main concerns are for where GOT goes next. We must presume that season 7’s storyboards & scripts are written and they are now setting up shooting schedules which probably means that season 7 will climax with the end of Winds…. but for that to happen D&D must know how George will end the book and where the story goes in a Dawn of Spring…. the trouble is at the rate GRRM is writing GOT will probably conclude 5 years before he publishes his final Novel…. and in TV Land that makes him History. If so that will be a sad way for this to end….

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    21. Gape, laugh, whimper, cry, curse, wail, beat breast, gnash teeth, flip table, self harm, simper, entreat Gods, shout at dog, lament, bemoan, self pity, mutter, breathe deeply, reflect, meditate, disambiguate, begin positive reallignment process….

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    22. Its not big deal for me, the books and the show are already so much different. We will know how Jon get resurrected and a general direction of main characters, but even there we will have no idea if it is fairly accurate adaptation like Jon´s and Cersei´s season 5 storyline, changed a lot but going into same direction like Dany´s and Arya´s storyline or completely off like Sansa´s and Jaime´s storylines. I just hope the books will be finished eventually, before you know what.

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    23. I’m not surprised, and kind of relieved. I started this journey with the show, and after season one or two I started reading the books mostly to avoid reading more spoilers by childish book readers —I did fall in love with the books, but the truth is that, for me, this is still mainly about the show. For once, I wanted to have an unspoiled season, and I knew that I wouldn’t be able to avoid TWOW spoilers if it came out, so it’s nice to know that it won’t. Of course, it was incredibly depressing to read that blog post, and I feel for the guy —but I gotta be honest, as far as I am concerned, these are good news.

      LordDavos: One thing I wonder under this process is while the show has the detail of what happens, will we be getting some of GRRM’S great lines from his manuscript into the show?

      I imagine so. In season four, when Arya killed Polliver, she did so in the same way and with similar lines with which she killed Raff in TWOW’s Arya chapter, which was released by GRRM months or weeks before season four aired. So D&D must’ve had access to it before that.

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    24. Probably for the best I suppose. It’ll (hopefully) be more refined as a result of going back to his own (lack of) deadlines. Also, I probably won’t be hating on the show as much now. I had a lot of problems with season 5, but now at least those from the “This Didn’t Happen in the Book!!!!!” category of complaint will cease to crop up. There’s relief to be had in that.

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    25. oier: Anyway, for me, the answer to “will the show spoil the books?” is a huge YES. All those characters Martin lists whose fates have been different in the books and the show are tertiary characters at best. But what most people mean with “spoil the books” is: will the show reveal the fates of Jon Snow, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Cercei, Jaime? Will the show portray the second (Dany’s Dance of Dragons) and third (Fight againts White Walkers) conflicts before the books? Will the show spoil how the story ends? the answer is YES.

      Agreed. I found that part of his post to be too naive. Most of those are tertiary characters at best —except for Stannis, who will surely die in TWOW. And that’s just the fates of characters —this season, often from the very first episode, we shall see what happens to ALL the major characters post-ADWD: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Cersei, Jaime… and all the rest, truly.

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    26. I’ve come to the conclusion that GRRM isn’t writing TWOW anymore and that in fact he has no idea which book the chapters that he’s writing will end up in, which is why no matter how much time he spends on it he never has enough to be released.

      Either that or he hasn’t got enough fan favorite characters left to kill and refuses to put out a happy book.

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    27. Bending Knee: Not to mention the Dumb and Dumber completely screwed over King Stannis.

      Go to other sites for the petty insults —that is not permitted here. Anyway, so you think Stannis won’t die in TWOW? D&D didn’t just invent that.

      Bending Knee: Jaime seems to be heading into his Feast for the Crows storyline

      The difference is that this storyline will probably have a climax in the show, based on TWOW material. The same goes for Sam. Most storylines, especially those of the “main” characters (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran), will go into TWOW from the very first episode. Others, such as Jaime and Sam and even Arya, will have some AFFC and ADWD material in season six —but before the end of the season, all characters will have gone through TWOW spoilers.

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    28. Luka Nieto,

      Agree completely with thus post, and came to the books after I had already watched the show too.

      I have a lot of respect for George, and I really feel for him, but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

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    29. Not unexpected in the least as Martin’s writing speed has been getting worse by the year. As was said upthread, he wrote three huge books from 1993-2000, with some early stuff done in 1991 and 1992. In the fifteen years since he’s managed to write 1 book. Yes, one, because Feast and Dance are essentially a single book split for size. You could argue it’s not even one book, because the natural stopping points of those book(s) were cut out and left for Winds.

      That said, I still think Season won’t be as spoilerific as some believe. Based on all the filming news and what we know of show storylines, I believe Season 6 will cover at best the first half or maybe 2/3 of the book. Those that are horrified by the prospect of being spoiled should take this as some small comfort I guess.

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    30. I have a lot of respect for George,and I really feel for him,but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

      No, this won’t. People will still find reasons to complain and say “so and so event will never happen in WOW”, especially if they don’t like what happens to one of their favorite characters. Stannis last season is a big example of this.

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    31. Jeb:
      Luka Nieto,

      I have a lot of respect for George,and I really feel for him,but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

      No this won’t. People will still find reasons to complain and say “so and so event will never happen in the books”, especially if they don’t like what happens to their favorite characters. Stannis last season is a big example of this.

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    32. Well considering everything, this is a really nice way to start my year.

      I didn’t want to read WOW anyway, not before the show ending and reading lots and lots of reviews.(didn’t do this with AFFC/ADWD and I regret it to this day)

      I want to watch the show just once, with that sanse of wonder and excitment and not knowing what happens next. Hardhome really convinced me that not reading the next books until the show is done, is the best option.

      If WOW would have been published before S6, I planned to stop going too forums like this as not to be spoiled. (people are nice here but there is always that one asshole)

      Knew this would be hard, hell you can get a spoiler on a random youtube video or a website that has nothing to do with GOT.

      But now I’m even more excited too watch S6. All in all, this is good news for me.

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    33. I realized a while ago that GOT would provide us the ending to that story. And I’m fine with that.

      Heck, one of the reasons the massacre at Hardhome was so exciting for me last year was that I had no idea what was going to happen, so I’m actually really looking forward to experience GOT as an almost completely unsullied for the first time ever this year.

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    34. Maceless Fan:

      I also watched Jonathan Strange on BBC, then read the book right after. I really enjoyed them both and the order didn’t affect anything. I have several friends who swear up and down that they won’t watch season 6 if TWOW wasn’t out first and it’s silly as shit. As a book reader, one of the exciting things about watching the show for me is seeing how the show handles the changes during the adaptation.

      With you all the way! I had a similar experience with Lord of the Rings in that I saw the films before reading the books and it didn’t take away from my enjoyment in any way. If anything, it actually helped: I came across The Hobbit when I was very young, fell in love with Middle-earth, immediately tried to read LOTR, but wasn’t quite ready (got lost in the descriptions, poetry etc and couldn’t understand what was going on). Years later I saw the films and not only did it reinvigorate interest in Tolkien, it provided a general sequence of events to ground my reading (I sat down with Fellowship as soon as I was home from the cinema!). I wish they’d been around when I’d first picked up the books as it would have provided some much-needed context and gotten me into LOTR much sooner. GRRM’s only gained readers through the exposure the show’s brought his world.

      And yes, be it LOTR and ASOIAF, picking out the differences between book and adaption was great fun, not to mention made for great discussion. With the source material unfinished, come April the question “do you think x is canon or adaption?” will be much more interesting.

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    35. Mr Fixit: That said, I still think Season won’t be as spoilerific as some believe. Based on all the filming news and what we know of show storylines, I believe Season 6 will cover at best the first half or maybe 2/3 of the book.

      Half or two thirds of TWOW being spoiled is a lot of spoilers. From the very first episode, the show will spoil the TWOW storylines (incomplete or not) of Jon, Dany and the Dothraki, Tyrion and Meereen, Bran, Cersei and King’s Landing (the fate of the threeway Lannister—Tyrells—Faith Militant struggle), Theon… and throughout the season, Arya, Jaime and Brienne, Sam, Littlefinger and Sansa and the Vale, whatever happens with the Night’s Watch and the wildlings… and pretty much everyone else.

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    36. Not entirely unexpected, he has been travelling quite a lot and whatnot. I hope or wish for it to come out end of this year so the wait for season 7 is less agonizing for all of us.

      Anyway Happy New year y’all.

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    37. I’m pretty happy about this. I think that this outcome will resolve a lot of tensions in the fandom – especially since S78 will come before ADOS anyway. There are already a lot of people on reddit saying, ‘I care less about the books now, just waiting for the show (and if the books appear, all the better, GRRM take his time!)’. So, more and more people instead of viewing the show and the books are opposites, come to see them as complements. Which is pretty cool, not just because it will marginalise the purist radicals even further, but, above all, because it’s the healthy position to take. ?

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    38. Mihnea,

      This is a good point. You can argue the same is true in reverse, that the excitement of reading the book will instead be spoiled. But personally, I read books for more than just plot – there’s also the language, the beauty of the writing itself, being taken inside the heads of characters in a way that TV can’t really do, and so on. In other words, the TV show relies more on excitement and plot. It may sound pretentious, but I believe there are more layers to a book. I will still happily read TWOW, even if GOT completely ‘spoils’ all of the main plot points. Because if reading a book was just a case of ingesting a plot, then every book could be reduced to a series of bullet points on a sheet of A4 paper, and that’s not really reading at all.

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    39. It’s incredible how self-deluded we can be when we so want something to happen. GRRM probably knew in the back of his mind that even the end of year deadline was impossible but you tell yourself it’s doable.

      I also wonder what this will do for his writing speed and whether we will ever see book 7. Either the pressure will be off and he’ll speed up or his motivation will go altogether.

      I also can’t decide if I feel for him or not. I mean, I do on one hand – he’s obviously under a lot of pressure and his sadness is genuine and palpable. But on the other hand, it’s his job. I know ta a creative job, but I can’t help but think he should approach it more professionally.

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    40. This was inevitable at some point, anyway; nobody seriously believed that the last book would be out before the end of the TV show, so at best, we’re reaching this point 1 or 2 years earlier. If the TV show goes to 8 series, there is absolutely no way that ADOS would be published before S8, so this was always going to happen eventually.

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    41. Glad to hear, he should never be rushed, I would rather wait the time for a masterpiece that stands the test of time over generations than some sub-standard rushed piece of literature

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    42. Personally, I think it is good that he addressed this in his blog. Not for me, I already was 100percent sure, that Winds of Winter is not finished, but some still hopeful fans got now some clearity.

      But he should have just said, it is not finished and I do not know when it will be finished, it will definitely not be finished before season 6. When it is done, it is done. That would have been enough.

      BUT: He states that he has already written hundreds of pages and that the book could be finished within months, if everything is going well. Personally, I doubt this, he is not good in guessing his progress and seems to be quite unrealistic regarding his writing speed.

      He needs to put the pressure off himself, but with this statement he did not put the pressure off, the pressure ist just delayed for some months. Some of the fanbase (I am talking about you, westeros.org and Reddit) will just take from his statement that the book can be finished within month and hope now that the book will be finished before the end of the year. So, the pressure will still be there.

      Personally I do not believe that we will ever read the end of the series. The Winds of Winter may be finished in some years. (2018, 2020, 2022 whatever) But I do not have any hopes for the last book.

      Fortunately, we have the TV show which will tell us the end and the main plots and the fate of the main characters.

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    43. ….and the most important bit of information I got from that entire post was that Season 6 will premiere in mid April, not the end. So…April 17th? I’m putting my money on that date.

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    44. At least, GRRM is honest and give us something. He’s usually not a talker, and in this post he’s saying us why he couldn’t do it. Now, I’m not a hardcore fan of the books so I can see season 6 and read the book after.

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    45. Im so not surprised. I gave up on the very idea of WoW a few years ago. I read the books long before the show, and have been pleased by the adaptation for the most part. Now, its just the show, Im enjoying it, and Im not even sure I’d read another book at this point. . Im glad Martin has finally realized and admitted that its not going to happen. Just a bummer it couldn’t have been different.

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    46. Ross: But on the other hand, it’s his job. I know ta a creative job, but I can’t help but think he should approach it more professionally.

      And on a third hand, he’s now 67 years old and shouldn’t have to be comitted to a job anymore. If he just went out and said that he has no more fun writing and that he just wants to enjoy his life from now on, I’d be totally ok with that.

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    47. Luka Nieto,

      We already know that stuff from Bran last chapter in ADWD will be making into the show, and with the ToJ being taken from season 1, a good chunk of his storyline is not TWOW material.

      The Yunkai seem to be coming into play this season, Tyrion will probably face some of the situations we saw Dany face in ADWD.

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    48. I enjoyed ASOIAF even after seeing up until S3 of ‘spoilers’ from the TV show so this is no problem for me at all. In fact I find it even more exciting that I get to see GoT without knowing 90% of the plot already. Like back in the S1-3 days. Knowing the plot while reading is a lot more enjoyable for me than knowing the plot on TV.

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    49. KrakenDaughter: We already know that stuff from Bran last chapter in ADWD will be making into the show, and with the ToJ being taken from season 1, a good chunk of his storyline is not TWOW material.

      Nope. The ToJ in AGOT was a partial dream in Ned’s head —this season we get the big revelation with Bran and the Three-eyed Raven, which is of course TWOW material. Yes, all of us pretty much know the big twist already, but it’s still something the books have been building towards. There’s no “good chunk” of Bran’s story this season that comes from ADWD or earlier. There’s NO chunk at all! We’re getting a Winterfell flashback to the previous Stark generation —but we know that it won’t be like the one in Bran’s las chapter, as Lyanna and young Hodor will be involved, and possibly Rickard Stark too.

      Bob Warren: But personally, I read books for more than just plot – there’s also the language, the beauty of the writing itself, being taken inside the heads of characters in a way that TV can’t really do, and so on. In other words, the TV show relies more on excitement and plot. It may sound pretentious, but I believe there are more layers to a book.

      That sounds more ignorant than pretentious to me. You are right about one thing —books are about more than plot. It’s the beauty of the language, the pacing, everything. But the same goes for a film or TV show! Film language is important, and Game of Thrones makes extensive use of it. Even with the same plot, Game of Thrones would be a million times poorer if it was shot as a mindless romantic comedy or action movie. I watch Game of Thrones in large part because of how beautifully it’s shot and composed —because of the beauty of its film language; not unlike the beauty of the language in a book.

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    50. I think he is more depressed about it than we are because we all were expecting a long wait. Honestly I have been saying 2017 since ADwD came out so I’m definitely not shocked and would have been more shocked if it did come out before the show. To be fair, he didn’t say it wouldn’t be this year – just not before the next season airs. Yeah it will suck that certain things will be spoiled, but it is what it is and now is the point where the books and the show need to just be looked at as separate entities.

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    51. zod: And on a third hand, he’s now 67 years old and shouldn’t have to be comitted to a job anymore. If he just went out and said that he has no more fun writing and that he just wants to enjoy his life from now on, I’d be totally ok with that.

      That would be true if it only affected him, but the fact is, Game of Thrones / ASOIAF is bigger than him now – a lot of other livelihoods depend on it and he has contractual commitments for which he has been immensely well reimbursed (and rightly so). He used to work in TV so he knows what deadlines are all about. As he says himself, really there are no excuses. Hopefully we’ll see it at some point this year.

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    52. The last two ASOIAF books were shit, I’ve never had high hopes for TWOW, I will give it a chance when it’s published but I’m not waiting with bated breath for it. This whole situation is just amusing now given the sheer volume of whining coming from show detractors/book purists, with many of them actually having held out hope for the book to come out before s6, so that they wouldn’t be spoiled by the show (which is weird seeing as they relentlessly criticise it for having little to do with ASOIAF). What’s more, they ought to prepare themselves that the only GOT/ASOIAF ending they will likely ever get will come from D&D.

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    53. Luka Nieto: That sounds more ignorant than pretentious to me. You are right about one thing —books are about more than plot. I

      heh, yeah: I always thought that they were about stories! 😀

      At this point, I think that we should not count on seeing the Winter novel until after the HBO series is complete. There are two reasons for this. One is psychological. If you ever have worked on a big project that had a deadline, and then missed the deadline by so much that the project no longer had a due date, then you know how hard it is to muster the energy to resume it. Deadlines are great things: they are the closing doors for which you are dashing and trying to pull an Indiana Jones escape. Shut that door and… well, what is the point in running?

      The second is adaptation. One big advantage adapters of original works have is that they can take advantage of how different parts of the original were received. For example, much of what was criticized about Lord of the Rings (Bombadil, Glorfindel’s Folly, the out-of-the-blue Scouring of the Shire) was cut from the films. Tolkien fans cried: but other readers felt that a good editor should have done the same. We’ve seen the same thing here: much of what was criticized about the novels was cut in the adaptation.

      Now, the shoe is on the other foot. GRRM can now see how basic parts of Winter are received: and it will be very, very difficult for him to ignore things that are not received well. Obviously, he has to take into account literary gills vs. cinematic lungs issues: but if the criticism is of the breathing apparatus in general, then it will be very very difficult for him to ignore those criticisms. Moreover, I do not think that he should: if you are given a second chance to “do it right” (or, at least “not do it wrong”), then you should take advantage of it!

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    54. I don’t feel sorry for him at all.
      I still think that we won’t see TWOW before 2018. Maybe, just maybe we will be able to publish that book in 2017. but I’m not so sure.

      I will put this great post from user Alex Greyjoy at iswintercomming.net

      “Hundreds of pages, dozens of chapters” is what he was saying about ADWD for 2-3 years before it actually came out. Also, he was talking about “release by X date/holiday” since 2007 or so. This is ADWD situation all over again.

      GURM is not a professional writer, this is a hobby for him. Fortunately for him, he makes a living off this hobby, but it’s a hobby. Professional writers write and not wait for a muse. I’ve read and heard enough Cornwell’s interviews where he describes himself as an gardener even worse than GURM (he describes situations where he sits to write a chapter and doesn’t even know how it ends), and still he writes every day for hours and that’s why he releases a book per year. Also, GURM is a classic procrastinator and he won’t release the book until he has an ultimatum from the publishers. He won’t have it for a long time now because the show overtook the books and no one really cares anymore. In procrastinator’s vocabulary “Hundreds of pages, dozens of chapters” means ~200 pages and a ~20 chapters or something like that.

      ADWD took him 6 years and it was rushed into publication unfinished and without any editing, just so it would coincide with the end of S1 of GoT. TWOW will be out in 2017 at the earliest, only if his publishers still care about the books. If not, it might never be released at all.

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    55. I think this will be a relief for GRRM. He won’t have a deadline (to catch up to the show) anymore which can mean that he can focus better from all the fan-stress that pressured him over the last few years.

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    56. phantomstrife: The last two ASOIAF books were shit,

      I agree that Crows was a travesty, but Dragons really had some good stuff. OK, yes: it could have used some editing. However, the Jon and Daeny storylines paralleled each other beautifully, and GRRM really did a very good job of making their character evolution point and counterpoint each other. Theon’s stuff was pretty good, too: although it really would have benefited from being intertwined with another protagonist.

      I would agree that GRRM misstepped with Tyrion by giving him a “fire/misfire/refire” plotline that sort of tripped up the story. Watching the show makes me realize that the Selmy PoV chapters should have been Tyrions: but Tyrion getting there in time was tripped up by the “stumble” in the middle of his plotline. And although Quentyn offended me much less than Arianne, it was superfluous. (Sorry, but getting the dragons free should have been a very simple plot procedure!)

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    57. Bending Knee: Not to mention the Dumb and Dumber completely screwed over King Stannis.

      If you do not think that Stannis is in for a similar fate in the books, then, well: you have not been paying attention! (Think Pink.)

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    58. “I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has.” Pretty much every fan was worried about this, even when the HBO deal was announced in bloody 2007. It goes to show the man has absolutely no professional work ethic and is incredibly delusional about this. I remember fondly the day when he thought ADWD could be done in 1 month and it took him another 2 years for his editor to just publish whatever he had without a proper ending. Now he is saying it will take him months to finish if the writing goes well, we all know this means we won’t see the next book even before season 7.

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    59. Lauren: I think he is more depressed about it than we are because we all were expecting a long wait.

      Having missed self-imposed deadlines in which there was no longer any point in setting a new deadline once or twice myself, I can definitely support that idea. It’s really quite devastating: the two time it happened to me, I had a tough time not simply throwing out the project!

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    60. Wimsey: I agree that Crows was a travesty, but Dragons really had some good stuff. OK, yes: it could have used some editing.

      I liked ADWD. Honestly, maybe I even loved it. But it could have used ANY editing. Because it so obviously had none at all. GRRM is a great writer, so the finished book was still pretty amazing, but come on… Everyone needs an editor. I don’t know if most people are aware of how important editors are. Ask writers —often, the editors salvage meandering shit and turn it into gold. ADWD was pretty cool as it was, but it still sorely needed an editor. An over-abundance of POVs (a few with incredibly repetitive and pointless stories, such as Arianne and Quentyn), no climax for pretty much any of the storylines… Man, hopefully some day a fan makes an edition of AFFC & ADWD that takes out the fat and turns that rough diamond into a true masterpiece.

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    61. Knurk: Pretty much every fan was worried about this, even when the HBO deal was announced in bloody 2007.

      I was on sabbatical from the fandom at that point. (I was a big fan in the last 90’s and early aughts: but between Crows over late release and over poor quality, I wrote off GRRM as another Robert Jordan until the show appeared.) Was that really the reaction? After all, supposedly DwD was nearly done and due out any year: and supposedly GRRM was going to get back on the every 2-3 pace of the early novels.

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    62. zod,

      I do believe the publishing house that made aSoIaF possible and gave Martin the platform to success would have serious issues with that stance.

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    63. Wimsey:
      Luka Nieto,

      But, man: what a great second or third draft it was!

      It was! The story was great. Still, I long for a proper edition of AFFC & ADWD. It would basically be the “Boiled Leather” fan edition but not just amalgamating the two books into one in terms of reading order but also making a few difficult cuts. After all, just because you like a character or a plotline doesn’t mean it needs to be there, it doesn’t mean it’s properly servicing the story —and that goes to George as much as to the fans. “Kill your darlings”!

      Though season five had a few missteps, overall I’d say it’s pretty much what I’m describing —all the major characters are present and have a story arc from beginning to end, with a few proper climaxes, and there’s no repetitive or pointless “storylines” with no actual story to be found —it’s just absurd that there are three different characters in ADWD whose storylines that can be summed up with “I’m traveling to Meereen and geez isn’t it difficult”. We needed to follow Tyrion in that journey for the story’s sake —the others? No.

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    64. Ross,

      A lot of other livelihoods depend on GoT that much is true, but not really for ASoIaF. Maybe some, but not nearly as much and even then not entirely. ASoIaF is a big book series and lots of people work on it, but it is nothing compared to the giant, always running machine that is GoT.
      I’m not saying GRRM has no contracts to fulfill, but I doubt that something like “books X and Y have do be finished before the show” is part of that. The show does not need the books anymore, in fact, maybe it never needed them.
      The books will come out when they come out, and when they do I will read them, the show is a different beast.

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    65. Luka Nieto: We needed to follow Tyrion in that journey for the story’s sake —the others? No.

      Indeed! Moreover, I really think that Tyrion’s “stumble” interfered with communicating the story. He starts off in the dumps, starts to pick up after meeting a certain collection of “My Death was Greatly Exaggerated” characters, then winds up back in the dumps after encountering Jorah, with no rebound until very late. The story really came from the rebound: but having two of them blurred GRRM’s point.

      But the Victarion and Quentyn stuff all could have been deleted. If we are correct about the sole plot point that Victarion will provide, then I think that it is another “Numenorean Sword”: the show will skip right past it and although the fans will scream “Nobody could understand how it happened!” the general viewer will not even question how it happened! Similarly, once Tyrion or whomever (including the dragons themselves) accomplishes what Quentyn did, nobody is going to think twice about it.

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    66. Wimsey:
      flintstonewielder,

      Possibly even a legal issue!

      If he dropped aSoIaF outright, could be. Well, we don´t know what their contract looks like, so it´s all speculation. Just looking at his LostPostGate entries from the last 24 hours, you get a snapshot of GRRM´s motivations over the last few years. They are a lot of things, just not aSoIaF any more. Heck, he may have written more on Sad Puppies / Hugos than tWoW last year.

      To the enablers/apologists about to kick in (once they´re done licking their wounds): Yep, the Old Man can do whatever he wants. Actually, he has already been doing so w/o giving a flying f*ck about our blessings. Enjoy, I´ll say ! To the most deluded thinking *but he has hundreds of pages and dozens of chapters written* might result in a release later this year, read thru that same entry again where GRRM he keeps rewriting/discarding elements of the manuscript. Remember aDwD ? Same story. It took him years to figure that one out, and only because Harper Collins pried it out of his fingers. So…2017, or 2018…or whenever. *shrugs*. D&D – do your job ! The novelization of GoT can come whenever it wants.

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    67. I’m thankful that George told us so we don’t live any longer than we have to with our delusions (for the next few months). Hell, I bet announcing that it won’t be out before season 6 will in some way relieve whatever pressure slows him down. Many artists are terrible with deadlines. You give them one and it slows them down. You tell them people are excited to experience their art and it slows them down to a crawl. Art is not the same as “doing your job.” Anyone who thinks it is doesn’t know shit… and has never created anything anyone but their mom wants to enjoy.

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    68. LordDavos: In a way having the show answer ‘what happens next’ could make the books more enjoyable: it may be easier to concentrate on some of the wider detail without feeling impatient for the next plot development.

      A lot of truth in that.

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    69. ghost of winterfell,

      Are you fucking retarded people? How many times do the showmakers and Martin himself have to say that they have access to all the winds of winter manuscripts and also MARTIN himself for more imformation?

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    70. Wimsey,

      I preaty much think that ADWD is a miedocre book. The Jon and Dany stuff wasn’t really interesting too me.
      The other stories I was like ”meh”.

      Theon’s stuff was good.

      And…With shame I admit that Victarion was my guilty pleasure… Found his chapters funny and Maqorro was interesting…

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    71. flintstonewielder:
      zod,

      I do believe the publishing house that made aSoIaF possible and gave Martin the platform to success would have serious issues with that stance.

      Blowing deadlines, not delivering anything and just enjoying his life is pretty much was he’s doing right now. Issue or not, it seems that there’s nothing that publishing house can do about that.

      And don’t talk as if that house didn’t get anything in return of “that platform to success” they “gave” him.

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    72. GeekFurious,

      The typical apologist blabla.
      Martin himself admitted he loses interest in writing a story once he knows what the end is and he has to wrap it up. The publisher went ahead, anyway.

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    73. Mihnea:
      Wimsey,

      I preaty much think that ADWD is a miedocre book. The Jon and Dany stuff wasn’t really interesting too me.
      The other stories I was like ”meh”.

      A lot of small-minded people agree with you.

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    74. zod: Blowing deadlines, not delivering anything and just enjoying his life is pretty much was he’s doing right now. Issue or not, it seems that there’s nothing that publishing house can do about that.

      And don’t talk as if that house didn’t get anything in return of “that platform to success” they “gave” him.

      Oh, they got their sales out of the existing books. And all the corollary crap they launched in their wake. But that deal, so far, has been sweeter for GRRM. Whether they can do anything about it, again: We don´t know what´s in the contract.

      Finally, all of this is very encouraging for the chances of new, fledgling genre writers that would like to get multi-volume deals from publishing houses. GRRM/Rothfuss really improve their chances of success.

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    75. Luka Nieto,

      I don’t dispute that: it’ll be a lot of spoilers. I’m just saying it could be worse! I imagine Season 7 will cover the late TWoW/early ADoS.

      Also, much of Season 6 will be stuff readers can extrapolate from where the last book ended. True hardcore spoilers will arrive in Season 7, I expect.

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    76. Interesting to wake up to this news…

      Yes, I am disappointed. I began this journey with S1 of the show and then read the all of the books a few months later. (And have re-read them since then.) I love both the show and the books.

      Nonetheless, I was hoping to read GRMM’s version of some of the major plot points that we know/suspect are coming in S6 before we saw them. That’s probably just my own impatience; the suspense is really agonizing. I will still read TWOW whenever it comes out and I watch the show with the same level of devotion.

      However, at this point, I believe that the show will provide us with the only complete version of the story that we will ever get.

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    77. Since the show will already spoil a lot of the next book, he will have even less incentive to finish book 6 before even the show ENDS completely.

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    78. So that is actually the official TWoW cover… always wondered if it was a fan-made or not. I always loved it so great news !

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    79. Winds of Winter not coming out before season 6 is dissapointing but certainly not unexpected. The one I’m REALLY worried about is Dream of Spring and you should be too.

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    80. While the selfish, petulant child in me wants more book as soon as possible and the businesswoman in me knows it’s unprofessional to miss deadlines, the artist and writer in me empathizes with GRRM in a big way.

      This story and world used to belong just to him. And he let it out in the world and it eventually became bigger than I think anyone expected. And now the pressure is on. He’s damned if he does (release the book, have it not be up to snuff, face criticism a la AFFC/ADWD) and damned if he doesn’t (what is happening now).

      I saw the first 6 episodes of season 1 before I started reading the book, but I caught up all the way to ADWD within months. I love both the story in both mediums equally but for different reasons.

      I choose to believe that the story will someway, somehow, be finished.

      I’M GOING ALL KINDS OF POLLYANNA IN 2016.

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    81. I’m really disappointed. Not that is a surprise, but I was still hoping there’s a chance for TWOW to be published this year. For me it’s not an issue of spoiling – I can enjoy the books and the show separately and I rather like to compare them as parallels. The repeated delay is what annoys me. I wish I had known the book would be published in ten year from now, but that deadline to be respected. I can’t imagine the last two books not be published at all. That would make me mad, the Seven forbid!

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    82. Mihnea,

      Oh course!! Don’t you know it’s impossible for two intelligent people to have difference of opinion on anything? So, if two people disagree, it must mean that one of those people is kind of dumb.

      As for this new, not at all surprising. I do feel like if they knew the book wasn’t coming they would have resurrected Jon in the finale. That would have been a way more interesting cliffhanger to me.

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    83. Looking on the bright side, since he missed the chance to publish before season 6, the next big push will be for Christmas 2016 as far as I know.

      If he’s right that he’s only got a few more months of work left, maybe they’ll be able to take the time to do more editing instead of doing a 3 month scramble.

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    84. I read A Game in 2000. Finished the first three books in less than 4 months. Read A Feast in 2005, and Dance when that came out, what 2011 or so???. I will read the books when published. I owe myself that at least, considering I have been on this 16 year and counting journey, but man my eyes are starting to get weak. Fucking reading glasses??? Really, doc?????

      However, I must say, there is a silver lining: That HBO is consistent enough to give us a season every year around the same time. I know that in the next 2-3 years there will be an ending to their story. Yeah, its not GMs story, but it is close enough to wet my whistle for the time being.

      It’s torturous. The agony of the wait and the ecstasy of the climax.

      Oh and penis.

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    85. Not surprised with this news at all. I’ve made peace with the fact that the show will, more or less, spoil the ending of the series. I can live with that. I’ll read the rest of the books when it comes out.

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    86. You know the guy is terrible with dates/deadlines when he says he never thought the show would catch up with the books. At most by season 3 we all knew this would happen.

      I’m not disappointed because I wasn’t expecting TWOW to be out before S6. I’m just kinda concerned about his creative process. I hope he’s not seeing finishing ASOIF as a chore, and by the end, all the pressure he’s been going through doesn’t affect the final result, regardless of the time he’ll need to get everything done. He needs to enjoy his work geting done, not just the fans.

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    87. Hodor,

      Dude, maybe you should tone down the language a bit. Retarded? I don’t recall reading any report which said the showmakers have access to WOW manuscripts, even though that’s likely of course. Maybe I missed it. Even if they have access to Martin, its not the same as having written material in front of you.

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    88. By this point, not surprising. We had reached the stage where it was theoretically still possible for it to squeak in under the deadline, but pretty unlikely. I imagine this must feel like quite a defeat for GRRM, but as he says, it’s ultimately on him and nobody else.

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    89. In all honesty, if he spent half as much time, and sheer volume of words as he has writing about some dumb ass sad puppy conspiracy regarding hugo awards….He probably would have been alot closer to his deadline.

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    90. I’m not sure whether I am in a minority but I suspect I may be. I don’t mind in the least that the book won’t be out before the show. I watched all five series before I read the books, and I devoured all of them in a matter of weeks with relish. I enjoyed them immensely and intend to read them all again.
      There are so many additional characters in the books and many story arcs which are entirely different to those in the show, so there are still many aspects in the books that are new and attention grabbing. Film brings characters to life visually but nothing quite matches an awesome read for me.
      At least we know now rather than forever speculating and wondering and I’m sure the next book will be well worth the wait. Far better that GRRM takes the time he needs and we all end up with a good book. If he’s rushed and pressured then the tale may suffer for it.
      Roll on Season 6 🙂

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    91. I’d rather wait and have him take the time to make it good than read a rushed version that was not well thought out. Do your thing George! Looking forward to that Theon chapter!

      I might add for those of you who do not understand creative mediums like painting, writing, music, etc… With a lot of people creativity doesn’t just happen instantly and pop up at will. With some artists inspiration takes time. Give the guy a break.

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    92. Jeb,

      I have a lot of respect for George, and I really feel for him, but if this reduces the corrosive atmosphere that surrounded a lot of last season it’s fantastic news. Goodbye Elio and Linda.

      Oh my sweet, sweet summer child …

      If the book purists’ reactions concerning King Stannish-the-Mannish’s fate last season has told me anything, it’s that they’re going to be way, way worse when GoT ventures into the land of “post-books.”

      Expect lots of lots “No way GRRM would’ve written Characters E & F to do Plot Element X that way! Dumb and Dumber are hacks and/or fanfic writers hellbent on destroying GRRM’s sacred words!” type of posts from the book purists, especially as GoT starts to reveal major WoW / aDoS spoilers. The fact that they won’t know whether any new material is actually taken from WoW or is D&D’s invention won’t matter.

      Brace yourselves. It’s going to get really ugly once Season 6 rolls around.

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    93. It is time HBO tease us again. I mean: they can give us a few pitcures or 30 seconds of video. But that’s the fan who speaks now.

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    94. I get the idea of taking your time to get it right and all, but I do have to wonder…..how the heck did he get A Storm of Swords out so fast? It’s hands down the best of the series, in the opinion of just about everyone and it took him less than two years to write it. Not so sure what that says about the whole notion of taking his time will make it better

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    95. GeekFurious: A lot of small-minded people agree with you.

      In my observation, so do a lot of large-minded people. I know a lot of former-SoI&F book fans, and Dragons did not win them back. At this point, most of them prefer the presentation on the show.

      Again, I thought (and still think) that Dragons was a big step back in the right direction. However, I fully concede that a lot of it was not up to the literary standards that GRRM reached in the first three books. And I also fully concede that I am emotionally conflating “better” with “well-done”: Dragons was uneven, with well-done and poorly-done, which made it a big step up from Crows, which was much more even (poorly-done and poorly-done). And I cannot fault others for demanding “well-done” throughout.

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    96. Aryamad,

      “I’d rather wait and have him take the time to make it good than read a rushed version that was not well thought out”

      A Feast for Crows – 7 years

      A Storm of Swords – 22 Months

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    97. Rygar,

      Haha. Needed a laugh after downer book news, thx. Now if I can just keep from getting SW spoiled for another 2 hours, everything will be looking up again.

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    98. I am not surprised but a little disappointed. Probably Fall or Winter 2016 at the earliest.

      Today is my 29th birthday. I am doing a GoT marathon to celebrate. ? ?

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    99. Josh L.,

      But it will be oh so funny to read all the frustrated Lindaaaaaaaaa-tweets.

      Regarding the people who call the producers “dumb&dumber” I really feel some Schadenfreude. They have complained so much about them and now their only chance to know the end of ASOIF will be the show version. That’s really a sweet revenge which will help me to accept the “But GRRM would have never written this” “But in the books it would have been so much better”-nonsense.

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    100. I’ve been reading A Song of Ice and Fire for a long time, ever since only the first two books were on the shelves. Sadly, I think George RR Martin has lost his way. The quality of the last two books in the series was much lower than than the first three. I’ll keep reading the series just to see what happens, but my expectations for his works are much lower than they were in the past.

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    101. If anything you should expect the his ASOIAF publishing trends to increase, coupled with age, it does seem like people should assume the books will not be finished. The best hope is actually that he delays continuing the books beyond WOW to put more time in with D&D to help build the end of the show. If the final book(s) is (are) many years away from a (never) publishing, then seasons 7 and 8 will rely more on direct contact with GRRM than the others required.

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    102. Bending Knee,

      I so agree with this! I mean, it’s not that the show is spoiling the books that bothers me, it’s that they are doing a complete injustice to some character’s reasons for doing the things that they do that really ruins things for me. It’s not the end itself that makes the story so satisfying, it i the journey and if they are mucking that up, then it aint so great. The ending will not be satisfying. That is what worries me about theshow runners… Knowing the back story of the characters (Being a book reader) has allowed me to better appreciate show characters actions (even if the show had them take a diffetent route) because I know the real reasons behind them. Without that knowlege I would be much more upset about show Catelyn’s actions for example when she lets Jamie go free, or Stannis killing Shirreen. I would hate those characters! But because I had already read the books and some of the pre release Winds chapters I know that the characters choices are much more weighty than they were made to seem on the show- giving the characters more depth and allowing for more compassion for the characters. I feel more engaged with the show because of the books. If I am now to leave it all up to the show, some of the ridiculous leaps they have characters take without reasonable explanation ring false and take me out of the story. This is my fear from the show. Also, when they (the show writers create thier own material or lines for that matter the quality can really suffer. Example, the whole “You want a good girl but you need a bad pussy” bit or the random creation of Podrick the love master. Just adolescent level creations that lower the quality and truth of the characters GRRM created. Not to say that some of the show creations are not great additions (I loved the Tywin Arya scenes (because those actors made them amazing more than anything) and I enjoyed the Mark Addy as Rob Barratheon marriage reminiscing in season 1. I don’t recall that from the books. ANyway… I am rambling. My main point is, I think getting the story from the show first, while it can still be an enjoyable experience, will be reductive for sure.

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    103. You people are delusional if you don’t believe GRRM is 100% involved in the direction and writing of the TV series. We are all heading in the same direction – be patient and enjoy the ride.

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    104. Hmmm! With this announcement I wonder if George is now going to use the show to finish the books, well perhaps certain arcs. This does not bode well for even a pre- season 7 publishing date.

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    105. Lyanna_Targaryen:
      Batiatus,

      Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Try to be more imaginative with your words.

      He’s quoting Spartacus. His username is that of the character who frequently utters those words.

      I think we’ll certainly get to read TWOW someday, but at this rate ADOS will remain a dream.

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    106. ghost of winterfell: I don’t recall reading any report which said the showmakers have access to WOW manuscripts, even though that’s likely of course.

      We have been told that B&W have had access to what has been written. Whether that is outline or manuscript has not been stated. However, GRRM does not strike me as the “outline” type, and he’s never mentioned really writing them.

      Josh L.: Brace yourselves. It’s going to get really ugly once Season 6 rolls around.

      Indeed, you are very correct (I think!). I suspect that what so many hardcore fans disliked about seeing Stannis die the way that he did was not so much love of Stannis: but that it falsified fan-conjecture about other things from the books. In particular,

      it falsified a lot of ideas concerning the Pink Letter, which tells us that Stannis met a similar fate.

      This leaves people with two choices: admit that their conjecture was wrong, or assume that B&W screwed up. I, myself, tossed in the towel on a particular conjecture I had related to this. I had thought that we would see three Starks in three camps of the final aspect of the Westeros Civil War. I had thought that a controversial note contradicting this idea was honest but mistaken. Now I concede that the note was honest and correct; and this also means that my conjecture is wrong. Whoops! Oh well, it was not a bad conjecture: or so I tell myself! 😀

      Once again, we saw the same thing in Harry Potter fandom. A lot of fans warned of dire final fates when “obviously” important characters and plotlines were cut, and how bad Kloves and Heymen would look when these characters and/or plotlines were important in the 7th book. That Rowling was working closely with Kloves & Heyman meant nothing: obviously they were ignoring her! And then…. none of the cut characters or plotlines were important in the end.

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    107. I don’t care about the books already. I hope the tv-series will finish the story in 2018(at the latest). After that, when George is done we will informed about the other book characters’s fate who get cutted from the series.

      But look the cover. 😀 Big spoiler from book 6 is

      the Wall falling down by Joramun’s horn

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    108. B: Without that knowlege I would be much more upset about show Catelyn’s actions for example when she lets Jamie go free

      I suspect that the general audience would disagree. What Catelyn does on the show is a failed attempt to keep Robb’s army unified without damaging their political position. What she does in the books is purely selfish. However, TV!Catelyn is much less shrewish than is Book!Catelyn, and has been since the very first episode.

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    109. Vegodread,

      I don’t know what you mean by “100%”. The writers consult him for information on the books (I’d be interested to know how much of the written stuff for TWOW they’ve actually seen, though large chunks of it are by this point pretty much irrelevant due to changes already made). He tends not to be involved much in the active planning of the season, beyond that, and wasn’t even when he was writing an episode per year. He’s said as much before. Obviously the show is heading toward broadly the same ending, as the writers have also said many times.

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    110. B:
      Bending Knee,

      I so agree with this! I mean, it’s not that the show is spoiling the books that bothers me, it’s that they are doing a complete injustice to some character’s reasons for doing the things that they do that really ruins things for me. It’s not the end itself that makes the story so satisfying, it i the journey and if they are mucking that up, then it aint so great. The ending will not be satisfying. That is what worries me about theshow runners…

      Easy solution: Live with it or stop watching the show. The end of the show will be the only end you will get. Or do you honestly believe that GRRM will finish ASOIF?

      If you do not trust the show runners than it will be really the best to not watch the show any longer.

      I have a friend who loves ASOIF, he has not yet watched the show and does not intend to do it. He knows that he hates adaptions of his favourite books as he can just not see show and book as different things. So he spares himself and his environment a lot frustration. Would be great if all book purists would be like him…..

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    111. Sean C.: though large chunks of it are by this point pretty much irrelevant due to changes already made

      That depends on what you mean by “large chunks.” Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya and Bran are most of the story: indeed, they probably are over 75% of the story. And all of them are in the same positions as they were at the end of Dragons or will be early in Winter. The lesser protagonists (save for Cersei) are in different positions: but of those, only Sansa is apt to be important in the over-arching story. (The fact that GRRM basically omitted her from the Crows/Dragons story makes me suspect that she will not be important at the climax, at least in the books.) In a lot of ways, it’s like a cake made with all of the same ingredients and baked in the same way: but with different colors added to the frosting and different decorations placed on it in the end.

      EDIT: An odd alliterative mistake was undone!

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    112. I’m glad he made the update. For some people writing one’s frustration and disappointment down, makes for a semblance of catharsis. I hope that’s the case for him too. He seems to have been really invested in finishing it in 2015. I hoped for that myself. So at least I wasn’t alone. But it was not to be and so it goes…

      Angela,

      Happy Birthday Angela!

      Valaquen,

      Yes, Batiatus was one of the best villain I’ve seen this decade in Television and DeKnight certainly didn’t mince words in his series!

      Clearly Lady Lyanna was not a fan of Spartacus LOL

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    113. By the sword of the pale child Bakkalon, this is dark news!

      I LIKE NOT THIS NEWS! BRING ME SOME OTHER NEWS!

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    114. Seeing GRRM write “King Stannis” in the context of butterflies and dragons has certainly gotten 2016 off to a good start.

      The Show has decided to give the bad of Jon to Stannis and the good of Stannis to Jon (ruining both for all but the groundlings). The Books will hopefully strive to be great literature that stands the test of time.

      I stopped watching after 5-8, and won’t be watching further. I believe that in a little less than a generation we will get the faithful adaptation of ASOIAF to the visual medium that we hoped GoT to be. Not that The Show is all bad, Hardhome was an awesome spectacle that is more in line with the Hollywood Action Fantasy background of the producers; but they can’t do literature, and the more they deviate from the source the more it shows.

      I just see GRRM writing better now that he has the deadline off his back.

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    115. The Dragon Demands:
      By the sword of the pale child Bakkalon, this is dark news!

      You would say that, wouldn’t you. How will you ascertain the quality of season six if you cannot be sure whether things that you didn’t like are based on the book or not? You could do a Linda and just not review the show anymore —or edit a wiki about it, which in your case involves as much personal criticism as any review.

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    116. Rygar,

      Hah reading glasses?! And I thought I was the only one with that problem! Devices get smaller, letters get even more so. I’m not good listening to doc though…

      A bit late but Happy New Year Ry. And the same to everyone else.

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    117. Luka Nieto: You would say that. How will you ascertain the quality of season six if you cannot be sure whether things that you didn’t like are based on the book or not?

      ….because they condensed Season 5 so badly that half the subplots in Season 6 are actually holdovers from prior novels?

      But that was already becoming a problem what with Sansa advancing past her book subplots.

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    118. The Dragon Demands: ….because they condensed Season 5 so badly that half the subplots in Season 6 are actually holdovers from prior novels?

      Oh, I see you maintain the fiction that they are correcting themselves, instead of this being the plan all along, even though, as they have said for years, they no longer adapt the books in big chunks —they mix it up in order to tell the story the best way they can in the show.

      What is the problem with adapting stuff from previous books in season six, exactly? Cannot you envision a more dynamic kind of adaptation? They couldn’t adapt the Greyjoy stuff in season five because it lacked a climax and no main character could be involved; now they can have both for season six. The same goes for Jaime and the Riverlands, or Brienne, or Sansa —if you didn’t want D&D to make stuff up in-between the book material, blame GRRM for not inventing enough material for them in the last few books.

      But there’s no use in arguing with you. You wanted them to adapt half of AFFC & ADWD in season five and the other half in season six, despite the fact that such a terrible decision would cut all the story arcs in half, leaving no single storyline with a climax or a natural progression. You only seem to care about plot in the most lifeless sense and about the fake background History, which may I remind you is there for worldbuilding purposes, to make the world feel real —it shouldn’t be the end of the world when the show doesn’t adhere to it exactly! You put all of that above story, characters and the pacing of it all, which would all be completely fucked up in the adaptation you suggest. Not surprising for a wiki nitpicker, but still.

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    119. Well, sad but not unexpected news. I agree with many here that ADoS is a very distant possibility at this point. Maybe with Season 6 “spoiling” his work, the pressure will be off a bit and he will finish WoW in the next couple of years. I know the guy is depressed about this – his ego probably has a very hard time grappling with someone else moving his story forward. But g-damn, people are able to stick to hard deadlines and release great product all the time, JK Rowling being the obvious example. I am thankful that D&D are here to shepherd this thing to its conclusion and that GRRM has no power over the show, or Isaac would be 30 before we got to the final season!

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    120. Stannis the Mannis:

      I believe that in a little less than a generation we will get the faithful adaptation of ASOIAF to the visual medium that we hoped GoT to be.

      Don’t know what you are smoking….But I want some of it.

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    121. Luka Nieto: Oh, I see you maintain the fiction that they are correcting themselves, instead of this being the plan all along, even though, as they have said for years, they no longer adapt the books in big chunks —they mix it up in order to tell the story the best way they can in the show.

      1 – They always said they see it as adapting the whole story, and even Bran Stark was on his book 5 material by Season 4 (technically when most other characters were on book 3 material), so I don’t have too much of a problem with them being out of synch on some subplots.

      2 – Not accusingly, but they never had a firm plan for seasons 5 and 6 when they were in Seasons 1 or 2. I mean, at the time, they kept saying “we’ll be lucky and grateful to get renewed for another season”, so I think any plans they had for four to five seasons in advance were only tentative at the time. In flux. That isn’t blameworthy or anything, it’s just that I don’t think they physically could have had ANY “plan” for what Season 5 was going to be like “from the beginning”, that is, from Season 1. I mean, even they would say that.

      3 – Every character arc doesn’t always have a neat climax – what was Jaime’s climax at the end of Season 2? Or even Robb, really? They could have just ended the season with “Hardhome” and not needed to speed everything up to get to stopping points.

      4 – What I DO say is that they never wanted to make only seven seasons — despite the fact that they started saying this loudly and often in Season 4. We know this because we have this thing called “the internet” where we can see that in prior seasons, once they split book three across Season 3 and Season 4, they tentatively said they hoped for “seven to eight” seasons. Quite probably the actor contract negotiations led to fears, when Season 5 was filming, that they might only get seven seasons, in which case they seem to have drastically condensed many plotlines. The question from the beginning was “what if the TV show outpaces the novels?” — you don’t then just decide to burn through two novels in a single season, to the detriment of major subplots (you’re seriously saying they merged Sansa with the Boltons because they thought this was superior? Or due to time constraints? And Dorne….yeah….) I don’t blame D&D for this though, so much as I blame HBO for not having more faith in what was already a hit project. But I wish D&D would just be honest about “we faced production issues” – like Peter Jackson did earlier this year.

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    122. In other news, it has been discovered that water is wet!

      Really though, as much as I’m looking forward to WoW, I’ve always maintained that I want it to be what GRRM is satisfied with.

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    123. And so the world’s least surprising news becomes official.

      I feel for George. I really do. I think his passion for the world and the characters that he created shines through in that post, as it does in his novels. I believe him when he says that he wanted the novel to be published before Season 6, and that he worked hard to make that happen. His disappointment is palpable. I empathize with how hard this must be for him.

      Having said all of that … I’m perfectly content with this outcome. I was definitively in the camp of readers who either didn’t care if The Winds of Winter was published before Season 6, or hoped that it wouldn’t be. Furthermore, I’m all in favor of GRRM taking as long as he wants to write TWOW. He’s earned that right, and rushing to put out a substandard piece of work in the service of an arbitrary deadline will result in a product that pleases no one, least of all him. Personally, I don’t feel the need to read the next book before Season 6 arrives. I never have. In many respects, I would prefer not to.

      If Martin had used yesterday’s post to announce that he had completed TWOW, I would have happily placed a call to my local bookstore to pre-order my copy. But I’ll be just happy to make that call in six month, two years, or ten years. “Spoilers” – however you chose to define them – have never once compromised my enjoyment of any well-crafted story. But I can’t deny that the prospect of not knowing what’s coming next is thrilling. I’m glad that I’ll get to experience that sense of wondrous, open-minded anticipation for the first time since I started the series.

      Game of Thrones was my entry point into GRRM’s world of ice and fire. Back in the spring of 2010, I heard that HBO was making a new TV series set in a fantasy realm where “seasons could last decades, and winters a lifetime”. I looked at a few promotional stills, read a synopsis, and said “This looks amazing! I can’t wait to watch it!” When I heard that the show was based on a series of novels, I decided to pass them time until it premiered by reading them. I read the first three books before Season 1 premiered, read AFFC as Season 1 was airing, and then got to jump almost immediately into reading ADWD when it was published about a month after Season 1 ended. It was the perfect storm, and I was hooked. The books were key in cementing that love.

      Nevertheless, I have always been more emotionally invested in the HBO television program Game of Thrones than I am in Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire novels. Partly it’s because I tend to prefer a well-crafted film or TV series over a well-crafted novel. Partly it’s because my impatience with certain digressions, tropes, and developments (e.g. the rampant fake-out deaths and resurrections of characters) have unfortunately undermined my enjoyment of the last two novels. Most significantly, however, it’s the community that the show has fostered over the past several years on websites like Watchers on the Wall. The combination of being able to discuss this story and these characters with passionate, knowledgeable, and respectful fans AND also have a constant flow of casting reports and speculation to discuss in the offseason have definitively tipped the scales in the show’s favor … at least in my eyes. I can promise you that if Game of Thrones didn’t exist, I would not be devoting the same amount of time that I currently spend on WOTW to the ASOIAF Reddit or other book-centric sites picking through old tinfoil about which characters are secret Targaryens and whether or not Roose Bolton is an immortal, skin-stealing vampire from beyond the Wall. I would think about this world and these characters far less frequently.

      (I think it’s telling – if not entirely good-natured on my part – that the primary reason that I hoped TWOW might be published before Season 6 premiered is so the fates of Stannis Baratheon and his daughter Shireen can be confirmed for those book readers who are still in denial. More than anything, I want this absolutely asinine idea that Benioff and Weiss deliberately and maliciously sabotaged Stannis’s character and stole his grand and inevitable victory in the North from him just so they can give that glory to their special favorite Jon Snow to be staked through the heart. That particular line of nonsense drives me up a wall every time I see it circulated, and it can’t be debunked quickly enough for my liking).

      Onwards to Season 6! I believe it’s going to be fantastic, and I can’t wait to see how it unfolds! I’ll enjoy The Winds of Winter whenever Martin publishes it. I’m sure that it will be fantastic as well.

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    124. Stannis the Mannis: I believe that in a little less than a generation we will get the faithful adaptation of ASOIAF to the visual medium that we hoped GoT to be.

      They have adapted the story faithfully: every season told the same story as did the corresponding book(s). The narrative details have been altered: but as the first two Harry Potter films show, if you regurgitate the narrative details of a novel onscreen, then you lose the story. Even decent novels are bad scripts, and the better a novel is, the worse of a script it is. They are fundamentally different ways of telling a story: and to make a literary Great White Shark work on land, you need a cinematic T. rex.

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    125. The Dragon Demands: They could have just ended the season with “Hardhome” and not needed to speed everything up to get to stopping points.

      Multiprotagonist stories rely on parallel development among the main characters. So, yes, it was critical that they get to some analogous stopping points for each of the Big 4 or 5 characters.

      To that end, Hardhome provided no conclusion. We had to see Jon punished for his deed of compromise, just as Daeny gets punished for her deed of compromise and Arya gets punished for hers, at the end of the season. That’s where we see the price of ceasing to be a child and trying to be an adult.

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    126. Kargaryen:
      You know the guy is terrible with dates/deadlines when he says he never thought the show would catch up with the books. At most by season 3 we all knew this would happen.

      You know, I wonder about this… did he truly ever think he’d be done first? If it takes him a whole day to write a blog post, what hope would 1500 manuscript pages have?

      I’m now keeping my fingers crossed for Xmas ’16, but I’m not holding my breath. I’ve been reading these books since they were first published in the ’90s (yes, I’m a member of that sad, sad club) and if the last one gets written, I’ll read it. A Dream of Publication.

      Some commenters upthread also refer to the quality of Feast & Dance. I am also curious if GRRM knows of the criticisms thereof. Not that it would matter, or change anything, but man, critical reflection is important in every profession.

      Thank goodness for the show.

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    127. Wimsey: That depends on what you mean by “large chunks.”

      I mean what pretty much everybody means: large chunks of the narrative have been elided, condensed, or otherwise bypassed. The entire political story in the south is very different at this point; the Meereen plot is pretty different at this point too; the Northern plot (and Arya’s) have been changed the least, but even that looks to have been markedly altered in some respects with the addition/subtraction of various characters. That means that large pieces of the novel GRRM is writing will not be of much practical use to the writers of the show.

      Though this will in many respects be a less marked change than some people expect. Every season has relied less on the books than the previous one; fewer and fewer scenes have direct book counterparts, for instance, and book dialogue is used way less (compared to season 1, which in many spots was a cut-and-paste). The last few seasons have largely used the books as an outline and worked separately from there. So what they’re doing for season 6 is not so different from what they were doing in seasons 4 and 5.

      (The fact that GRRM basically omitted her from the Crows/Dragons story makes me suspect that she will not be important at the climax, at least in the books.)

      She’s in those books as much as Bran is (moreso, had her fourth chapter not been moved), and two chapters less than Arya. All of the Stark kids are not in those books much because they were the characters that, as GRRM admitted, the five-year-gap would work best for. Given the way the series has developed, I don’t think she’s as important as the other two, but to say she was “basically omitted” from the story is not true at all. And yes, everyone is aware by this point how you define “story”, but her story there is directly paralleled to theirs in numerous respects. Hence, why they’re all taken to places of comparative safety and studying their chosen skill under mentors of varying degrees of moral questionability and grappling with themes of suppressed identity (moreso in the sisters’ cases than Bran’s).

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    128. I really hope they do something Red Wedding level shocking this season so that we can all be floored. That’s the upside of this. 🙂

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    129. you snow nothing:
      Some commenters upthread also refer to the quality of Feast & Dance. I am also curious if GRRM knows of the criticisms thereof.

      Obviously he does. I’m not sure how he couldn’t. He’s said he doesn’t spend a lot of time in fan forums, etc., but he does interact with fans a lot; and he has talked about, e..g, the Meereenese Blot essays, which he has praised in terms of their approach to the themes he was handling in Meereen.

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    130. Josh L.:
      Jeb,

      Oh my sweet, sweet summer child …

      If the book purists’ reactions concerning King Stannish-the-Mannish’s fate last season has told me anything, it’s that they’re going to be way, way worse when GoT ventures into the land of “post-books.”

      Expect lots of lots “No way GRRM would’ve written Characters E & F to do Plot Element X that way!Dumb and Dumber are hacks and/or fanfic writers hellbent on destroying GRRM’s sacred words!” type of posts from the book purists, especially as GoT starts to reveal major WoW / aDoS spoilers.The fact that they won’t know whether any new material is actually taken from WoW or is D&D’s invention won’t matter.

      Brace yourselves.It’s going to get really ugly once Season 6 rolls around.

      I am a GoT fan; never read the books; so I don’t go to that site at all. No bracing needed on my part 🙂

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    131. Is anyone actually surprised?

      In this time, we should be thankful for the show and they will finish the story way before George. I don’t want to wait another 10 years or so to finish this.

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    132. Sean C.: Obviously he does.I’m not sure how he couldn’t.He’s said he doesn’t spend a lot of time in fan forums, etc., but he does interact with fans a lot; and he has talked about, e..g, the Meereenese Blot essays, which he has praised in terms of their approach to the themes he was handling in Meereen.

      I don’t know those essays. Do they praise his work? I know GRRM interacts with fans, but don’t they usually praise him too? Which fan would meet him and say, “Hey, I didn’t like your last two books.”? He interacts with Elio and Linda…are they his baseline for what he thinks his fandom is? Again, it doesn’t matter, I’m just curious.

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    133. Jessica: Easy solution: Live with it or stop watching the show. The end of the show will be the only end you will get. Or do you honestly believe that GRRM will finish ASOIF?

      If you do not trust the show runners than it will be really the best to not watch the show any longer.

      I have a friend who loves ASOIF, he has not yet watched the show and does not intend to do it. He knows that he hates adaptions of his favourite books as he can just not see show and book as different things. So he spares himself and his environment a lot frustration. Would be great if all book purists would be like him…..

      This!! Yes!! Agree!!

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    134. Wimsey: They are fundamentally different ways of telling a story: and to make a literary Great White Shark work on land, you need a cinematic T. rex.

      Im guessing you haven’t seen Sharknado.

      😛

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    135. Sean C.: She’s in those books as much as Bran is (moreso, had her fourth chapter not been moved), and two chapters less than Arya.

      Bran and Arya both had distinct arcs of start, middle and end in Crows/Dragons. Sansa did not: she just had a bit of desultory narrative that ends with the promise of a start (Sansa deciding to put away her old self and embrace Alayne), but then no middle or end. And that is the huge difference: whereas Bran and Arya (and Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Theon and Jaime) all went from killing the boy/girl and becoming the man/woman, Sansa only got as far as realizing that she needed to kill the girl. Without the arc, and without paying any price for the evolution, Sansa was effectively absent from the story.

      Sean C.: The entire political story in the south is very different at this point

      That’s a plot, not a story. And as that plotline does not involve any of the major protagonists, it cannot be very important for the over-arching story. And, no, you cannot write: “You cannot know that unless you’ve read Spring.” At this point in the series, it is too late to make the minor protagonists that appear in that plotline relevant. They were not PoV characters (or even present at all) in Thrones (or Swords or Kings), and thus we cannot see the evolution from Thrones -> Spring. It is the evolution of the Big 5 or 6 over that span that will be the SoI&F story: and unless GRRM can retroactively insert Arriane or Asha or any of the other new protagonists into Thrones, it is simply too late for them to help create the SoI&F story.

      In the end, it will be Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya & Bran: and maybe Sansa. And at this point, it is too late to be anything other than those 5 or 6.

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    136. Stannis the Mannis:

      The Show has decided to give the bad of Jon to Stannis and the good of Stannis to Jon (ruining both for all but the groundlings). The Books will hopefully strive to be great literature that stands the test of time.

      Sorry but I disagree. Jon has been and will be much more central to the story as a whole compared to Stannis. One is a POV character, the other is not. GRRM saying that Stannis is still alive in the books doesn’t mean he won’t kill him in the next book.

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    137. Sean C.:So what they’re doing for season 6 is not so different from what they were doing in seasons 4 and 5.

      I would even say that they used the books as an outline for many storylines in S2 and S3 as well.

      Dany in S2, Robb in S2, KL in S3,…

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    138. Jessica,

      Listen Calm down. I didn’t say I wouldn’t enjoy the show. In fact I said, it would “still be an enjoyable expereince” to watch the show. I should be able make a point about the diminished quality from book to show without someone telling me the generic, thoughtless response “don’t watch the show”. I obviously enjoy the show lest I would not be here. Come up with something more thought out than that, thank you.

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    139. Wimsey:
      That’s a plot, not a story.And as that plotline does not involve any of the major protagonists, it cannot be very important for the over-arching story.

      Sigh. You’re free to constantly debate over other people’s usage of the word “story”, but whatever the case, the result is the same: large chunks of TWOW simply are not going to be of any use to the writers, because the plot is rather a large part of whatever’s happening in a chapter at a given space, and even many characters’ internal conflicts, etc. are very different. Whether this is good or bad, how much was necessary, etc are all values judgements, and thus in the eye of the beholder. Consider the only hard evidence we have of TWOW (albeit chapters that were largely transplanted over from the end of ADWD).

      Almost half of the chapters he has released on his website or read at conventions (or both) involve characters who either don’t exist in the show or are dead, and generally in omitted plots; then you’ve got a few Tyrion chapters where plot and characterization are revised; a Sansa chapter where the plot and characterization are totally different; a Theon chapter where the plot, at a minimum, will be different; and the singular exception of Mercy, which the writers have impressively managed to mine for what looks like no less than three separate parts of the show spread over three seasons. They clearly got good use out of Mercy (I’m not sure any other chapter has had such diverse usage, even).

      mau: I would even say that they used the books as an outline for many storylines in S2 and S3 as well.

      Dany in S2, Robb in S2, KL in S3,…

      Yes, certainly. I just cited 4 & 5 because they were the immediately preceding seasons, and the more advanced examples.

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    140. B:
      Jessica,

      Listen Calm down. I didn’t say I wouldn’t enjoy the show. In fact I said, it would “still be an enjoyable expereince” to watch the show.I should be able make a point about the diminished quality from book to show without someone telling me the generic, thoughtless response “don’t watch the show”.I obviously enjoy the show lest I would not be here. Come up with something more thought out than that, thank you.

      Well, I am not the one who wrote a lengthy post with a lot of fears because the books are not written and fears that the show’s end and the show will not be satisfying….just saying ;-).

      There is psychological concept called Self-fulfilling prophecy. If you expect something to be bad or not satisfying, it will be bad and not satisfying. Sorry, if I misinterpreted your post but it sounds like you already expect the TV show to fail or at least are not very hopeful that it will be satisfying.

      So the only way to have some fun with watching the show, is to change the attitude and not to expect the worst of the TV show. If someone is not able to do this, it is better for himself not to show the TV show because he will not have a satisfying viewing experience (Exception: hatewatchers, but you do not sound like one to me).

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    141. Rygar:
      I read A Game in 2000.Finished the first three books in less than 4 months.Read A Feast in 2005, and Dance when that came out, what 2011 or so???.I will read the books when published.I owe myself that at least, considering I have been on this 16 year and counting journey, but man my eyes are starting to get weak.Fucking reading glasses???Really, doc?????

      However, I must say, there is a silver lining:That HBO is consistent enough to give us a season every year around the same time.I know that in the next 2-3 years there will be an ending to their story. Yeah, its not GMs story, but it is close enough to wet my whistle for the time being.

      It’s torturous. The agony of the wait and the ecstasy of the climax.

      Oh and penis.

      Honestly, if GRRM continues to take so much time I think HBO will suffice. I mean, fuck, 6 years for one book? With no promise that it’ll be any better than the last two? And odds are there’ll be an 8th one as well. That’s twelve years from now. I could be a completely different person 12 years from now…

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    142. Wimsey,

      Very good point. Thanks!

      Wimsey
      January 2, 2016 at 11:57 am
      B: Without that knowlege I would be much more upset about show Catelyn’s actions for example when she lets Jamie go free

      I suspect that the general audience would disagree. What Catelyn does on the show is a failed attempt to keep Robb’s army unified without damaging their political position. What she does in the books is purely selfish. However, TV!Catelyn is much less shrewish than is Book!Catelyn, and has been since the very first episode.

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    143. Luka Nieto: Half or two thirds of TWOW being spoiled is a lot of spoilers. From the very first episode, the show will spoil the TWOW storylines (incomplete or not) of Jon, Dany and the Dothraki, Tyrion and Meereen, Bran, Cersei and King’s Landing (the fate of the threeway Lannister—Tyrells—Faith Militant struggle), Theon… and throughout the season, Arya, Jaime and Brienne, Sam, Littlefinger and Sansa and the Vale, whatever happens with the Night’s Watch and the wildlings… and pretty much everyone else.

      I disagree. Yes, quite a few bits will be spoiled, but not everything. If you’ve read the TWoW-chapters concernimg Meereen, you’ll know that it’s a completely different story. I’m expecting that nothing of Tyrion’s story in the first half of the book will correlate with what the first half of the show will tell us. The divergence is simply too big.

      The idea that Tyrion along with Varys, are handling a famine in Meereen in the show, while in the books, he is in the midst of battle in the service of a sellsword company, has not met Dany, nor has he talked his way into her court in the books seem like too large a rift to clear for me to believe that the shows take is from the books at all. Who in Dany’s court (without her consent!!!) will put a Lannister, picked up from the battleground, in that position? Barristan? Hell no. And concerning that we have the Yunkish noble returning, we might just get the Battle of Fire at the end of the shows version of Meereen. Which means very little spoilers for TWoW-chapters that haven’t already been released.

      Same with the Greyjoys and Sansa.

      The Kingsmoot is estimated to be midseason..

      and Yara is nowhere near Asha/Winds-story. Sansa’s story has been changed (or sped-up) so much it’s hardly an adaption.

      And than there’s Jaime,

      who’s still doing Feast past the halfway mark of the season, so while some Dance/Winds-conclusion/opening may be spoiled, I doubt we’ll see our golden boy reach even a quarter of his Winds-story.

      So that leaves us with Arya, Jon, Bran and Cersei. Bran will give us confirmation of a story that we all know already. Arya will get into spoiler territory, but not until

      after she gets to meet Izembaro, which likely isn’t the first episode, nor the third I pressume.

      Jon and Cersei and Dany are the only three that will get deep into spoilerterritory, and even than I am in the belief they’ll take KL slow..

      For instance, I assume her trial to be after Jaime leaves in episode 6/7

      ..

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    144. Mihnea:
      Wimsey,

      And…With shame I admit that Victarion was my guilty pleasure… Found his chapters funny and Maqorro was interesting…

      Nah, I agree, I found some aspects of ol Vic and gang pretty interesting. Mind you, I still hold out the hope that

      Jorah will take on the bit about the red priest ‘healing’ his hand/arm, thus becoming Joractarionnington since he’s already absorbed Connington’s bit. If we don’t actually get Victarion that is, which is seeming less likely. Sigh.

      You know, I’m excited that after 5 seasons I will now know shit all in many regards as to what will happen, not having the WoW out. Granted, there’s still a lot of book material covered in S6, but…. I didn’t expect it to come out, and I’ve never believed Spring would make it by the end of the series, so it’s rather lovely to be maddeningly flummoxed and know I’ll be jumping around wondering what will be what where. 🙂

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    145. Disappointing, but not surprising. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Winds still isn’t out by Season 7 either. And the final book? Forgetaboutit!

      Seriously, Georgie boy has lost his mojo methinks. It’s on D&D to finish this story now.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Zones Quest,

      Knowing Literature 101 is far from being a “know it all.” (If you are not a Yank, “101” to denote basic knowledge: we use that to number the most basic university courses that non-majors take to fullfill breadth requrements; I seem to recall that different labels are used elsewhere.)

      To this end, stories have necessary structures, just as do song or sculpture or any other form of art. And the biggest part of the structure of a story is the evolution of the protagonist(s) from start to end. And that means that if a character is not present from start to end, then that character cannot create the story. This is not some “trope” that GRRM can somehow break, but really almost a truism. Remember, once a story starts, then it immediately starts to constrain what it can do: that is, by building some bridges, it burns many others. And the possibilty of new PoV characters contributing much to the over-arching story is a set of bridges that was burned early.

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    147. I’m looking forward to watching the upcoming season without really knowing what’s going to happen. Sure, there will be things from already published material in there, but in terms of big events, I’ll be pretty much in the dark. It should be fun. 🙂

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    148. Reading a certain persons twitter.(i’m sick and stuck at home alone, while the wife went shopping, so forgive me)

      And it’s a melt-down… To be completly honest, it’s quite satisfactory too watch.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Ser Oromis Locke,

      Even if you say it’s true (and I don’t think it is -I believe Luka Nieto to be mostly right), you must admit that Dany, Jon and Cersei (and their associated locations) are three of the most important story/plotlines in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Ser Oromis Locke,

      From the sound of Isaac’s recent interview, in some respects I think Bran’s stuff this season will be the most spoiler-filled. Dany’s plot, from the spoilers we’ve gotten, seems to be proceeding largely along the lines people had already guessed. There’s some notable new stuff in Jon’s story, from the looks of it, but again, much of it well within the realm of what people have been speculating.

      In Bran’s case we’re getting some stuff readers already know, albeit in more confirmatory detail, presumably — but Isaac also talked about Bran seeing more of his own future role, etc., and this whole area is something we have almost no context for speculating about based on the published material to date. If you look at fan fiction, for instance, almost none of them address the War for the Dawn in any detail, simply because we have so little to go on in terms of who the Others are, what they want, what specific roles many characters will play, beyond the broadest notions of who the heroes are.

        Quote  Reply

    151. The Dragon Demands,

      I used to edit GoT wiki back in 2011/2012 but I’m afraid to do it anymore mainly because of your really harsh attitude. I made a complaint about Tysha sub-article on “The Children” page and you immediately threatened to temporary ban me. That article is waaay too subjective for the wiki, not to mention the length of it and citing Elio & Linda. Yes, you wanted to inform the non-book readers about the change, but it seemed to me that you wanted to say “Wait! You should not enjoy that scene. Just look how bad the show is!”

      Dedicating the whole section to Sand Snakes fight… Why exactly? Because the scene was bad? Yes, it was bad but is that really relevant?

      And the comment you made about Mother’s Mercy? “I think what I’ll do is, I’ll pretend I’m one of those deaf-mutes.” You are calling us who love TV show deaf-mutes? That’s perfect example of book reader’s arrogance which I encoutnered several times on A Forum of Ice and Fire

      And the criticism about season 5 winning the emmy awards is just disgusting. Does that really belong there? On the site, dedicated to TV series, which is supposed to be objective, you practicly wrote that GoT did not deserve those awards. And who are you exactly to decide that for all of us?

      It saddens me to see that GoT wiki is turning into another westeros.org site. Almost every “notes” section is filled with your criticism and subjecive language, implying that most of the changes are wrong… Why exactly do we have “Differences from the books” pages (which were by the way my creation at first) if you describe almost every difference in the notes section?

      The westeros.org forums ruined my love for the books and I am ashamed to have ever been part of that fandom. The arrogance, the insults, the feeling of superiority… And to think you quote Elio and Linda (especially Linda who’s extremely insulting to non-book readers, the producers and even the actors) on the site which is meant for TV series… Several AFOIAF users (Annara Snow, Borodin, Toth, JonCon’s Redbeard, Pyat Daenerys…) forced me not only to leave westeros.org, but to block the page on my browser, so I could never encounter it when searching. And your attitude on GoT WIKI might force me to do the same.

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    152. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      I’m looking forward to watching the upcoming season without really knowing what’s going to happen.Sure, there will be things from already published material in there, but in terms of big events, I’ll be pretty much in the dark.It should be fun.

      It is fun!! I never read the books, so I absolutely did not know what is coming next. I am actually more in the know about season 6 than any previous seasons by coming here. And I am still hyped and count the days until April. It will be awesome. I always wondered if the knowledge from the books somehow lessens the enjoyment of watching the show. This year we are all in it together, so kick back, relax and enjoy the ride.

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    153. Sean C.,

      I think some here are believing that the show will not be as spoiler free as some fear just because we can more or less guess how the storyline will continue. This is partly true, of course, but only for the early episodes of the season, really. We can’t really guess what will happen at the end of the season, how each storyline is going to end.

      As for believing that the differences between show and books mean that we won’t really get spoilered, think about this: imagine that book 5 hasn’t been published yet, and season 5 is released. Even with all the deviations, do you think season 5 spoils book 5?

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    154. Ghost NY hangover:
      Glad to hear, he should never be rushed, I would rather wait the time for a masterpiece that stands the test of time over generations than some sub-standard rushed piece of literature

      ADWD has already made sure that’s never going to happen. I like your spirit though.

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    155. oier,

      I had a hard time parsing some of what you’re saying, but as far as spoilers go, there are gradations. Obviously anything that confirms a common speculation is a spoiler, but it feels to me like less of one than something that fills in information we couldn’t really make much of a guess toward. The show by this point will broadly spoil character and plot endings; the specifics are going to be pretty different, as in many cases they already are. Certainly, reading AFFC and ADWD after watching Season 5 would be a markedly different experience from reading AGOT after watching Season 1.

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    156. you snow nothing: Which fan would meet him and say, “Hey, I didn’t like your last two books.”?

      Me. I am (almost) willing to stand in line for hours to have GM sign my copy of “Waiting for Dragons: an Unauthorized Critical Response”. I wouldn’t have to say a word.

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    157. Jaqen H’ghar is actually Rhaegar, and this will probably be revealed at the end of 6×10, after a few flashbacks show what Rhaegar looked like during the war. He is the “Song” (being a fairytale harp-playing Tolkienesque prince) from the title. The “Ice” and “Fire” are Jon and Dany. There’s your 3 heads of the dragon.

      The proof? The last 2 lines of A Song of Ice and Fire Book 4. A likeable character called Sam mistrusts a very strange character when they first meet, just like at Bree with Aragorn. The stranger is named “Pate”, like the “fairy-tale character” in the world’s folklore. But that word was also used by Barliman Butterbur in the tenth chapter of LOTR, where Aragorn reveals himself.

      “The story of that Mr Bilbo’s going off has been heard before tonight in Bree. Even our Nob has been doing some guessing in his slow pate; and there are others in Bree quicker in the uptake than he is.”

      I’ve been saying this for a while, but don’t take my word for it, just look at all the times Martin has mentioned Aragorn in interviews, introductions and comparisons. Look at how much he dislikes that trope. Then look at the huge amount of tropes he has already brought into Westeros and deconstructed. Look at just how often in Books 4 and 5 a dead character is brought up (Rhaegar) and his mystery analysed.

      R+L=J may be true – it doesn’t matter. It is misdirection and always has been.

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    158. Newbietothegame,

      While I’m pretty good at letting go of how things happen in the books while watching the show (I have Peter Jackson’s work on LOTR to thank for that), there was always the inevitable voice in my head saying, “well, but in the books…” I’ll be glad not to have that voice in my head for season 6. I think I’ll really enjoy being completely surprised. 🙂

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    159. mau,

      iswintercoming.COM dammit! Dot COM!

      When I unearth your user at iswintercoming, Imma warning point you so hard yo momma gonna feel it.

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    160. Sean C.,

      This is George’s world – I’m positive legal documents had to have been signed where he would be a close consultant. Do you really believe HBO would have begun this epic journey without the knowledge that they (D&D) would have close access to every and all source materiel. Where taking about billions, yes billions in the long run, of dollars here, it would be criminal if there were no safeguards. I’m sure they have also anticipated the possibility that George will never complete the books for whatever reason. They know exactly how this epic ends. There is probably a final manuscript in a vault somewhere. It’s called insurance.

      For those who are upset about the delay in the book…please do us all a favor and not watch season 6 until after the book comes out and you have read it. This is not North Korea, you have a choice.

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    161. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I, too, think that S6 will be fun. I have always found myself comparing certain scenes/dialogue from the show with the books. It isn’t an ideal way to experience the show and I’m glad that – for the most part – I will not be able to do that anymore.

      And while I am disappointed about this news, I think that there are great things coming in S6. The anticipation for some of these scenes will make for exciting Sunday evenings and for great discussion here.

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    162. Vegodread,

      I have no idea what you’re getting at there. I’m sure that the contract gives HBO access to whatever he’s got finished at the moment, and to his consultation on what isn’t written, which he has done extensively (they had a week-long summit a few years ago, for instance). I expect the writers could phone him up and ask for more details on a given point at any time, if they want to (whether they do that, who can say?). That’s his level of involvement at this point, now that he’s not writing an episode anymore.

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    163. The show went through the material in the books so fast that I’m not at all worried about the delay of the novel. The books are so much more alive, to me at least, and when I watch the show I’m disappointed sometimes in the omissions of some of my favorite emotional moments. I know that when I read TWOW, the (dumbed down) material of the show will be given much more value. Fleshed out, I guess.

      I’m sure we all feel that way

        Quote  Reply

    164. Ross,

      Whaddya mean ‘he used to work in television’? He has three shows in development. Plus he put out two books this year related to asoiaf, and an edited volume also I believe. Runs a small cinema, and is opening a multi-studio space for artists. He employs a number of people and gives them a livelihood. Plus making HBO and Tor millions of bucks. Not bad for a guy you say should be ‘more professional’.

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    165. I watch the Show and read the books, and I love them both dearly. George will work at his own pace and it will be finished when its finished, i’ll still be here waiting to read it when its done. right now i’m on high alert for a trailer for Season 6 that could Drop at any Day, second, minute, or week XD sadly i’m always away or doing something when the trailers drop……. Not this Time!!!

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    166. Luka Nieto:
      Matthew The Dragon knight,

      That’s the spirit. Hopefully we’ll get a trailer this month! Isn’t it exciting?

      It is exciting, especially knowing what they have planned for season 6. keeping up with all the filming information post season 5 kept me going. There’s so much to look forward to, not much longer now my friends. reading all the comments is pretty fun XD

        Quote  Reply

    167. 4eyedraven:
      Ross,

      Whaddya mean ‘he used to work in television’? He has three shows in development. Plus he put out two books this year related to asoiaf, and an edited volume also I believe. Runs a small cinema, and is opening a multi-studio space for artists. He employs a number of people and gives them a livelihood. Plus making HBO and Tor millions of bucks. Not bad for a guy you say should be ‘more professional’.

      Balls to that. His extracurriculars do not make him a professional. They make him a businessman. Whether or not GURM Inc. conducts himself in a professional manner is debatable. Very very debatable.

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    168. Lord Parramandas: “I think what I’ll do is, I’ll pretend I’m one of those deaf-mutes.” You are calling us who love TV show deaf-mutes?

      (that’s a quote from Catcher in the Rye about ennui, actually)

      GoTWiki can and does compare the TV show to the books: by definition, a TV adaptation does not exist in isolation from its source material.

      I’m confused: that’s what the private wikia sites have always been like. if you only want a basic episode recap and some casting info….why not use the main Wikipedia.org pages?

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    169. Vegodread:
      Sean C.,
      For those who are upset about the delay in the book…please do us all a favor and not watch season 6 until after the book comes out and you have read it. This is not North Korea, you have a choice.

      I know that one can be disappointed about the book delay and still be looking forward to season 6, because that’s me. That’s the great thing about us human folk, we are dichotomies and conundrums wrapped in burritos and smothered in special sauce.

      I’m curious about one of GRRM’s statements in his post. When he’s talking about book characters who have never appeared in the show he mentions

      Wyman Manderly. Now, I am certain he gets the scripts along with or even before the cast. If the fat northern lord who appears in one episode is Wyman Manderly, I wonder why he would say this. Is it just that he hasn’t appeared in the show thus far? I would think that he would have a hard time keeping aired shows/scripts apart in his mind and if he knew Manderly was to appear in the upcoming season, he might not have included him in the list of characters. For reference the list is as follows: Jhiqui, Aggo, Jhogo, Jeyne Poole, Dalla (and her child) and her sister Val, Princess Arianne Martell, Prince Quentyn Martell, Willas Tyrell, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Lord Wyman Manderly, the Shavepate, the Green Grace, Brown Ben Plumm, the Tattered Prince, Pretty Meris, Bloodbeard, Griff and Young Griff.

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    170. Sean C.,

      This is a business, would you do business this way? Even though we are not specifically told, you better believe GRRM is deeply involved in the TV series – HBO wouldn’t have it any other way. For him not to be is completely ridiculous and makes no sense at all. No problem though, believe what you will. I am excited and can’t wait for season 6.

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    171. Laura,

      Given that the Manderly-esque nobleman looks to be pretty much a one-scene character, he may not think that’s much akin to Manderly in the books. Or it may not have made as much of an impression on him on reading the scripts. Or perhaps he just didn’t want to spoil his inclusion in the new season, albeit in a small role?

      Vegodread,

      There’s a bit of a limit on how involved he can be without ever setting foot near the production, as he hasn’t this year (or last, I believe). Even when he was writing an episode a year, the showrunners drew up the blueprint and assigned him an episode to write. Now they’ve gotten his notes and interviews to help prepare their blueprint, in lieu of the books he has yet to write.

      I’m not sure why HBO would insist on him being involved beyond that (if they even can), if the showrunners feel they can handle it themselves, much as they have been all along. Like I said, I’m sure the writers can call him up and ask for some clarification on any given point if they want to.

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    172. Gucci Bootlips:
      The show went through the material in the books so fast that I’m not at all worried about the delay of the novel. The books are so much more alive, to me at least, and when I watch the show I’m disappointed sometimes in the omissions of some of my favorite emotional moments. I know that when I read TWOW, the (dumbed down) material of the show will be given much more value. Fleshed out, I guess.

      I’m sure we all feel that way

      Nope, I don’t. So don’t speak for all. You may speak for the book purists. But then again, you may be on the wrong site. Did you lose your way?
      10 episodes per season can only tell so much of a novel. So suck it up, buttercup.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Season 5 gave us a lot of spoilers from book 6.

      Stannis’s death, Barristan’s death, Mance’s (eventual) death, Shireen’s death, Myrcella’s death(but her death was sure anyway because of Maggy’s prophecy, and so Tommen’s)

      And the news too. For example a few of that:

      Jon’s resurrection and his victory at Winterfell, Petyr goes to the North with the army of the Vale(he wanted to give the North to Sansa in the books too), Dany power demonstration over the khalasaar

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    174. Luka Nieto:
      Matthew The Dragon knight,

      Exactly. It’s all part of the fun. Hopefully,before and after the trailer is released, we’ll also get a few EW exclusives by James Hibberd along the way, like the Bran photo and the interview with the actor.

      I was also hoping for some new interviews talking about season 6 or the characters, those are always a ton of fun to read. Also since The teaser poster for Season 6 of jon snow came out on November 23rd, and the Teaser Trailer for season 6 came out on the 3rd, i’m under The belief they might Drop the Season 6 trailer on the 26th if not earlier maybe even the 6th. just a guess from what i’m putting together.

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    175. Matthew The Dragon knight:
      I watch the Show and read the books, and I love them both dearly. George will work at his own pace and it will be finished when its finished, i’ll still be here waiting to read it when its done. right now i’m on high alert for a trailer for Season 6 that could Drop at any Day, second, minute, or week XD sadly i’m always away or doing something when the trailers drop……. Not this Time!!!

      I want a trailer now.

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    176. Sean C.,

      Yeah, I am sure it doesn’t really mean anything but it had me thinking. Upon further reflection, there’s one notable absence from the list of characters who have never appeared on the show, but I’ll let everyone else figure it out so I don’t have to duck the flying garbage that will be thrown my way. 😛

      Also, is it true that aDwD wasn’t edited? I wasn’t on any sites back then so this is news to me. I am assuming that it was edited along the way but that the final draft wasn’t, it was just rushed to production so they could put it out?

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    177. Sean C.,

      I was surprised he wrote Ser Wyman Manderly as not appearing when he could have not since S6 is not yet out and leave it as a mystery, but put that down anyway, and didn’t say anything about LS, not that it would matter as I have no idea how would they even introduce her at this point.

      Yep, I said it! It’s on damn topic and I said it!

      Hodor:
      Rygar,
      it is the GRRM story you idiot.

      Some call writing a story after a TV show, novelization. While clearly the original story idea is Martin’s, the show might veer off and do its own thing disregarding storylines outlined from the author himself. We have no real way of knowing that. On top of the fact that Martin himself tries so hard to make sure they are different entities (see his remarks where he keeps mentioning some characters are alive in the books when they are no longer in the show).

      So Ry’s statement is not so far off, even though I still disagree and think it is Martin’s first!

      Nice job with the name-calling. Hope it is worth looking like a intolerant Martin fan. Unless it was sarcasm. I don’t always get that over the net.

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    178. The Dragon Demands,

      I have no problems with comparing the show to the books. Like I said, I was the one who started writing the “Differences” page in the first place and I really objected, when Gonzalo84 tried to delete it and place the differences under the episodes. It is the writing style that bothers me. On the other Wikia sites that I am following (The Walking Dead, Harry Potter, The X-Files), the tone is not nearly as subjective as on this Wikia.

      For example, I would not mind describing the Tysha difference on Wikia, but writing such a long article about it and almost explicitly stating, how the producers made a terrible mistake is simply not right. That’s your perspective. You do not present the whole fandom of GoT even though you are an administrator. I was bothered by Tysha omission as well, but from TV perspective, Tyrion’s storyline actually made sense.

      And what was that about Emmy awards? How could you possibly believe this belongs to Wikia site? I was glad that they won all these awards and I’m sure many others are glad as well. But on the Wikia, there are strong implications that they didn’t deserve those awards at all… Again, your perspective.

      Citing Elio and Linda is completely unnecessary. Their criticism is not relevant because they are book purists who have almost no respect for the TV show. Well, Elio is actually pretty decent with his ratings (the lowest he gave was 6/10) but Linda… I’m glad that you are not citing The Cultural Vacuum (“Season 5 was loosely based on three page summary of AFFC and ADWD…”)

      To conclude, the Wikia is mostly about how YOU feel about TV series and is filled with your subjective criticism even though many would disagree. With all your articles, you are apparently trying to present, that GoT is not a great show. And because of your harsh attitude, I am afraid to edit it.

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    179. Lord Parramandas,

      I couldn’t agree more.

      Anyway, I started reading the books after I watched S2, but I always figured at the pace George was writing that the show would eventually pass him. While yes it’s sad, I don’t see the point in waiting just to not be spoiled. I think it will be a more entertaining experience this time around, especially with the story lines that are moving ahead. I’ve always enjoyed the show as much as the books and I could see S6 potentially being one of the best seasons.

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    180. Just woken up and logged on to find this had been announced overnight. A big part of me is not surprised, butI must admit I’m very disappointed. I’m scared that, now it will not be published by April, we probably won’t see Winds for years. Thank goodness for the show.

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    181. Disappointed to say the least. I would have liked to hear GRRM’s story from him first. But not surprised. Oh well.

      Watching the show will be a new & different (breathless) experience this year 🙂

      I’m sure it’s hard for some readers of this site to imagine but there are a number of us who enjoy both the books and the show, without the obnoxiousness of being a “purist” of either.

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    182. Sean C.,
      “If you look at fan fiction, for instance, almost none of them address the War for the Dawn in any detail, simply because we have so little to go on in terms of who the Others are, what they want, what specific roles many characters will play, beyond the broadest notions of who the heroes are.”

      You know, that’s a fascinating point. At some level, I think that there are basically only three options to consider: a. the final boss are the White Walkers; b. the final boss is Rhllor, and the WW are just misunderstood; c. the final boss are both the Fire and Ice forces trying to meddle with humanity (aka the Babylon 5 variant). (Personally, I think it will fall to c..) But you’re right, we have remarkably little to go on – I hope that as we near the ending, these things will be made clear by the show. S7, maybe, and whatever is hidden in Oldtown.

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    183. Lord Parramandas:

      “I think what I’ll do is, I’ll pretend I’m one of those deaf-mutes.”

      Seems this GoT wiki person is quite a character, right? Though I suppose I should applaud that Ghost in the Shell reference. Now that’s a very cool anime.

      EDIT: Oh, apparently it’s originally from somewhere else. Silly me!

        Quote  Reply

    184. Looking at GRRM’s previous publication pattern, it seems obvious he doesn’t need more time to write. He needs more motivation and inspiration. When you have those things, the words fly from your mouth (if you dictate) or your fingers (if you type or write longhand.) More time isn’t going to perfect the book.

      That being said, I’d be much angrier about this news if HBO had agreed to delay the series in order to give Martin more time to finish as some had suggested. I want resolution from this saga. And I’ll take whatever resolution I can get.

      I’m not so enamoured of the books that I believe that is the only way to truly resolve the series. I mean, there are certain aspects of the books that were dull, painful reads. I don’t care about the resolution for those characters. The show is managing to encompass almost everyone in the story who matters to me, and still include a few I’d like to eliminate (waves dismissively at Meereen).

      I’m going to enjoy watching the show as fresh and Unsullied. This is going to be fun.

        Quote  Reply

    185. I’ve long had a sneaking suspicion that GRRM does not want to finish the books, because he doesn’t know how to tie up all the loose ends he’s created in a satisfying way. Starting a story and adding layer upon layer to it is fun for a writer, pulling it all together into a good conclusion not so much. (ahem ahem JJ Abrams ahem) Add to that the fact that the adulation he gets from fans will turn to contempt if they don’t like how the story ends, and he has every reason to delay.

        Quote  Reply

    186. crimethink,

      It’s actually the opposite. He’s on record saying that once he knows how things end, he loses interest.

      The ending of the story has been outlined in his head to some extent for however many years now. He “just” needs to write it out. And he probably isn’t really interested in that because the thrill of novelty is gone.

      I can totally sympathise because I’m the same way. “What do you mean, I have to *write words* to complete my ph.d.?! I created a presentation in PowerPoint! All the ideas are already there!” Lol.

        Quote  Reply

    187. Sean C.: A lot of them, judging by what I’ve seen of fandom.

      That’s unbelievably sad. OTOH, I’ve only been a part of the online fandom for a short time, so what do I know? I started out at westeros.org, but left after a few weeks. Seemed toxic. Randomly found this site; thankfully most people seem civil, even when disagreeing.

        Quote  Reply

    188. I’m actually totally okay with this. I look forward to watching a season without a ton of book comparisons (from either myself or others).

        Quote  Reply

    189. you snow nothing,

      It’s not really specific to this fandom. Any fan convention will invariably include the airing of grievances, and in any event, no author totally ignores the reaction to the book; even skimming the reviews on Amazon.com, for instance, would acquaint a person with complaints.

        Quote  Reply

    190. Just look at the number of POVs he now has :

      Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Theon, Davos, Jaime, Samwell, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, Victarion, Aeron, Asha, Areo, Barristan, Jon Connington, Melisandre

      19 POVs.. and most of them scattered through continents, meaning that there’s no way to combine them. There’s no way he will be able to tell the stories of all these characters in a single book… This is the AFFC/ADWD problem all over again.

      I really don’t think TWOW will be published any time soon (if ever).

        Quote  Reply

    191. Ser Oromis Locke,

      The plot-points will be a bit different, but I expect that the story will be the same. At this point, it looks like it is going to be a story about getting people who do not want to heed you to do so. It’s pretty easy to see how (in both book and series) Tyrion will be feeding this sort of thing as he attempts to take charge in Meereen while waiting for Daeny to return.

      Lord Parramandas,

      This is pretty much on the mark. Really, you hit a key nail on the head: if you are a fan of the “world building” of a book series (be it SoI&F, Tolkien’s, Harry Potter, Dune or whatever), then you are not going to like adaptations because adapters are trying to adapt the story to a different medium, not the history. Being a fan of world-building is fine – there is no “right” or “wrong” reason to like something – but world-building fans need to accept that they are in a minority when it comes to general readership/viewership AND that an adaptation focusing on communicating the worlds of Martin/Tolkien/Rowling/Herbert/Smith/etc. simply is not going to have much of a market.

      Sean C.: It’s not really specific to this fandom.

      heh, not even close! You see the same things in the Doctor Who, Star Trek, Star Wars, Harry Potter, Tolkien, etc., etc., fandoms. For shows/films, you always get that contingent that wants “continuity”: they want the past recycled over and over. For books -> films, you get the ones that want the books used as scripts. And for both, you get fans that want the new shows/books to: 1) be like the old ones (because that is what got them hooked); and, 2) have events turn out in particular ways (River Song will be X; Leia will wind up with Luke; Hermione will wind up with Harry; Klingons will be shown to have grown those funky foreheads recently; etc., etc.)

      Musical acts get the same thing: there is always a big core of fans that wants them to replicate the old stuff. And if the new stuff is actually an improvement (as often is the case for the major bands that get better early in their careers), then the fans complain that they’ve actually “sold out” and lament that they are not making the “good” stuff that often really is not as good musically as the new stuff.

      Ultimately, all commercial artists should be worried about making new fans at all times, not about keeping the old ones. In some ways, it’s a bad sign if you keep the same fans all the way through: it indicates a lack of evolution.

        Quote  Reply

    192. It’s a shame, he doesn’t seem to help himself, since he’s known he’s had this issue for decades and this is his magnum opus. I mean JK Rowling locked herself up in a big country house in Scotland to be in a good writing environment. He could easily afford a professional coach to motivate him to write. Just seems a bit self destructive. I have the same issue but if it’s a uni deadline I’ll force myself to sit on the floor and write so I can’t get distracted. Silly GRRM.

        Quote  Reply

    193. It would be great if he could find a way to remove this pressure from his mind, because as he said in the blog post, it makes him like writing less and question his decisions, and it can’t be ignored that aFfC and aDwD were of a lower quality than his previous, quickly-written works.

        Quote  Reply

    194. I for one appreciate the honesty of GRRM’s post. Clearly, he is disappointed.

      I really don’t see a major problem in having WOW released after season 6. I just want to add that even if the book were to be released prior to season 6 you most certainly run into the problem in season 7 anyhow as it is a certainty that the series will be finished before the final book.

        Quote  Reply

    195. LNJ:
      I for one appreciate the honesty of GRRM’s post.Clearly, he is disappointed.

      I really don’t see a major problem in having WOW released after season 6.I just want to add that even if the book were to be released prior to season 6 you most certainly run into the problem in season 7 anyhow as it is a certainty that the series will be finished before the final book.

      If GM wants to score points with disappointed fans, he needs to apologize for getting pissy with folks who worried about his travel and side projects by whining, “Is it OK if I take a leak once in a while?”

      Martin takes too many potty breaks confirmed.

        Quote  Reply

    196. Cumsprite: If GM wants to score points with disappointed fans, he needs to apologize for getting pissy with folks who worried about his travel and side projects by whining, “Is it OK if I take a leak once in a while?”

      Martin takes too many potty breaks confirmed.

      Apologize ? Fuck his so called self entitled fans.

        Quote  Reply

    197. VegodreadThis is not North Korea, you have a choice.

      Huh, I did not know that Thrones was mandatory viewing in North Korea. Does Glorious Leader pirate it for everyone? (And did they edit it so that Tywin Lannister wins in the end?)

        Quote  Reply

    198. 1) The books are great.

      2) The show is great.

      3) A lot of the frustration I hear about the show is from book fans who seem upset that the show is telling the story first.

      4) The show diverged from the books last season, but if you notice, most of the key characters found their way to the same point in the story as the books. Books 4 & 5 were almost unfilmable so I thought they did a great job with what they were given.

      5) People saying the show is dumbed down is a joke. This is one of the most complex shows in television history.

      6) I believe GRRM’s problems are: 1) He isn’t motivated enough to write. 2) The story got out of control for him. Too many POV characters and he has no real good way to bring the story back in.

      I honestly fell bad for GRRM. But the show is still amazing….

        Quote  Reply

    199. Mormont:
      It’s a shame, he doesn’t seem to help himself, since he’s known he’s had this issue for decades and this is his magnum opus. I mean JK Rowling locked herself up in a big country house in Scotland to be in a good writing environment. He could easily afford a professional coach to motivate him to write. Just seems a bit self destructive. I have the same issue but if it’s a uni deadline I’ll force myself to sit on the floor and write so I can’t get distracted. Silly GRRM.

      JK has always seemed to appreciate her fans a lot more then GRRM has. GRRM is the better writer, JK is better to her fanbase.

        Quote  Reply

    200. Wimsey:

      Ultimately, all commercial artists should be worried about making new fans at all times, not about keeping the old ones.In some ways, it’s a bad sign if you keep the same fans all the way through: it indicates a lack of evolution.

      Wouldn’t that apply to your own dislike of the last two books, which is the sort of fan complaint that was under discussion (more specifically, the fans who tell him that when they meet him)?

        Quote  Reply

    201. Reading GRRM’s Lost A Blog was as heartbreaking as reading ASOIAF. The one thing I got out of it was the Quentyn Martell mention…and the book cover.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Rygritte:
      Reading GRRM’s Lost A Blog was as heartbreaking as reading ASOIAF. The one thing I got out of it was the Quentyn Martell mention…and the book cover.

      Life imitates art….

        Quote  Reply

    203. Dragonslayer: Funny thing, most Hugo organizer aren’t happy about the puppys either (but this really isn’t the right place to discuss this.

      This is not about the Puppies, this is about GRRM being as self-entitled about the Hugos as some fans about his writing speed.

        Quote  Reply

    204. At least we can look forward to this:

      Wild Cards is in my blood, and I plan to continue with those books as long as someone will keep buying them.

        Quote  Reply

    205. So mau…

      About our bet that TWOW will be out before 2018. Are you ready to concede? Or will I have to nag you later this year when the publication day is annouced?

      I’ll accept a good bottle of red wine as the prize. Thanks.

        Quote  Reply

    206. Hey everyone!

      Im a journalism student studying social media communities and I wanted to ask a few research questions from this community.

      Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
      Do you feel a part of the community here?
      What is so engaging about this site?

      Would appreciate any response!

      Thanks Watchers!

        Quote  Reply

    207. Matthew The Dragon knight: Apologize ? Fuck his so called self entitled fans.

      Through his petulance, Martin created an atmosphere where people who innocently (and not so innocently, to be honest) speculated about his commitment to the series found themselves on the end of “Martin is not your bitch” potshots, were called entitled crybabies and often found themselves on the receiving end of westeros.org bans. Martin created the shadow fandom and, it turns out, the “detractors” were right all along.

        Quote  Reply

    208. So here’s the thing for me. If we get a release date before the show airs I’m going to put off watching it until the book is out. So would they delay the announcement until after the series airs?

      Who am I kidding. I am watching the show regardless

        Quote  Reply

    209. Cumsprite: Through his petulance, Martin created an atmosphere where people who innocently (and not so innocently, to be honest) speculated about his commitment to the series found themselves on the end of “Martin is not your bitch” potshots, were called entitled crybabies and often found themselves on the receiving end of westeros.org bans. Martin created the shadow fandom and, it turns out, the “detractors” were right all along.

      The book purist like at westeros.org are the very worst I have seen of any major pop cultural fanbase.

        Quote  Reply

    210. Esmeralda,

      Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall? I appreciate the reliability of the information in the articles, and I enjoy the interaction with fellow fans.

      Do you feel a part of the community here? I’d say so, yes.

      What is so engaging about this site? One of the things I find most engaging are the different perspectives offered by different posters. There is a wide age-range and people from many, many different countries. I tend enjoy the fact most here can express themselves at least fairly intelligently, and, with a couple of exceptions, don’t take themselves too seriously. I also appreciate how, if it starts to get too vitriolic, someone steps in to try and dial it back. I’ve read other sites, and the extreme negativity toward the subject matter and/or fellow posters is a huge deterrent.

      Good luck with your research/project!

        Quote  Reply

    211. Zeus:
      So here’s the thing for me.If we get a release date before the show airs I’m going to put off watching it until the book is out.So would they delay the announcement until after the series airs?

      Who am I kidding.I am watching the show regardless

      Read between the lines friend. This book isn’t coming out any time soon. I would guess there are at least 30 chapters that need to be written and that’s a conservative guess. (That’s me guessing that George did think at one point in April that he could be done by Halloween and I would guess he thinks that even on a slow week he could complete between 1 and 2 chapters)

        Quote  Reply

    212. 4eyedraven:
      Ross,

      Whaddya mean ‘he used to work in television’? He has three shows in development. Plus he put out two books this year related to asoiaf, and an edited volume also I believe. Runs a small cinema, and is opening a multi-studio space for artists. He employs a number of people and gives them a livelihood. Plus making HBO and Tor millions of bucks. Not bad for a guy you say should be ‘more professional’.

      Calm down fella. He ‘used to work in television’ as in he used to write scripts for tv shows. As far as I know he no longer does so. Due to his main commitment – ASOIAF. I don’t deny his list of achievements is long and impressive and certainlymuch more so than yours or mine ever will be. I also don’t think he owes us anything. But my point was, he is familiar with working within tight deadlines. That would have been his world writing ‘Beauty and the Beast’. As he points out, he has agents, editors, translators, hbo and tons of other people waiting for this book in a professional capacity (not a fan capacity). So yes, I do believe he could have been ‘more professional’ to get his number one commitment completed.

        Quote  Reply

    213. Cumsprite,

      Right about what? It now looks highly likely that TWOW will be out late this year. A 2016 release date has been the most common estimate for years and represents similar times to write ADWD and TWOW. I am not dissapointed by this news at all. Just the opposite! I am happy to learn he is on track and close to finishing.

      No, you were not right in think GRRM is your bitch or that you have any right to flog a wealthy old man because he ain’t slaving away hard enough for you. Get over it. Life is short and I fully respect George’s right to enjoy the fruits of his success.

        Quote  Reply

    214. For the apologists, how about Ty´s insights from over a year ago ?

      He talks in terms of gardeners and architects, so I guess you’re more of an architect?

      Actually, I think that distinction is a false distinction. He really loves that idea, but I think it really doesn’t actually make any sense. He and I had several arguments about it — friendly arguments — but we had several arguments about it. And he’s actually changed how he describes it now because of our arguments. He no longer talks about it like these are two separate things; he now talks about it as everybody has shades of both. The truth is, I think if you have an ending in mind, I don’t think you can get there unless you roadmap of how to get there. And he is much more of a sit down at the keyboard, wait for the muse to strike, and bang out whatever chapter is sort of banging around in your head at that time. That works for him; he’s able to produce work, so more power to him, but that just seems like a really inefficient way to get a story out, from my perspective.

      http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/nonfiction/interview-james-s-corey/

        Quote  Reply

    215. The Dragon Demands: by definition, a TV adaptation does not exist in isolation from its source material.

      While that is true, it doesn’t mean that the source material and the adaptation have to be compared, let alone that the quality of the adaptation is (necessarily) in any relation with its faithfulness to the source material.

        Quote  Reply

    216. I agree. And the reality is that unless he is superhuman and physically fit, finishing all this may just be too much.

      Most non writers do not understand how physically taxing writing is: you have to sit in one place, i.e. your computer, for hours in essentially the same position, just moving your fingers and wrists. After decades of this, things start to break down. The best way to counteract this is to exercise, something it is obvious he does not do.

      Thank goodness for the show, otherwise we might never know the end of the story.

      Jessica:
      Personally, I think it is good that he addressed this in his blog. Not for me, I already was 100percent sure, that Winds of Winter is not finished, but some still hopeful fans got now some clearity.

      But he should have just said, it is not finished and I do not know when it will be finished, it will definitely not be finished before season 6. When it is done, it is done. That would have been enough.

      BUT: He states that he has already written hundreds of pages and that the book could be finished within months, if everything is going well. Personally, I doubt this, he is not good in guessing his progress and seems to be quite unrealistic regarding his writing speed.

      He needs to put the pressure off himself, but with this statement he did not put the pressure off, the pressure ist just delayed for some months. Some of the fanbase (I am talking about you, westeros.org and Reddit) will just take from his statement that the book can be finished within month and hope now that the book will be finished before the end of the year. So, the pressure will still be there.

      Personally I do not believe that we will ever read the end of the series. The Winds of Winter may be finished in some years. (2018, 2020, 2022 whatever) But I do not have any hopes for the last book.

      Fortunately, we have the TV show which will tell us the end and the main plots and the fate of the main characters.

        Quote  Reply

    217. Esmeralda,

      I enjoy this site tremendously – it almost feels like a family discussion with an aunt from France; an uncle from London and a niece in Brooklyn. We are all passionate about George’s work and bounce ideas and thoughts off each other constantly – most of us can’t do this with our true family members because they think we are crazy.?

      Also, I admire the mother of us all, Sue – she is who really drives this site and the discussions without the heavy hand most website administrators bring to the table.

      I hope this helps and good luck with your research.

        Quote  Reply

    218. Cumsprite,
      Wimsey,

      Are you serious? I really shouldn’t dignify this with a comment, but, I just can’t help myself. Why not read my comment again and see if you can glean where I was coming from. WOW!!!

        Quote  Reply

    219. “Not your bitch Not your bitch ENTITLEMENT Not your bitch Not your bitch ENTITLEMENT Not your bitch Not your bitch ENTITLEMENT Not your bitch Not your bitch”

      Alright, now that that’s done: GRRM is a lazy hack, has been since Feast. Abandon all hope.

      TWOW 2019, ADOS Never

        Quote  Reply

    220. Chad Brick,

      It looks to me you are looking to take offense because you have Mr. Sprite marked down for some offense. I totally get it. He’s very obnoxious at times.

      However, I don’t see anywhere where he suggests (in a serious manner) that Martin is anyone’s bitch. And it is true, people who suggested at the time (before Dance) at westeros.org that Martin might have other priorities than ASoIaF (you cannot possibly miss those priorities, because there are Nab posts about all of them) were called entitled brats and all sorts of names, and were summarily banned.

      Personally, I really hoped Martin will be done with Winds so I can enjoy the world he created as he meant it, no modifications, no adapting. And in a small measure I suppose, so I can rub it all over those cheeky detractor faces that keep popping up all over interent, because I am NOT above that. But reading the post again, I have hopes that it will be for this year.

        Quote  Reply

    221. Does anyone else find it interesting that GRRM is working in a Theon chapter at this late stage in the game? Presumably he writes more or less sequentially, so this info strongly hints that Theon will be around until at least the latter part of the book.

        Quote  Reply

    222. Chad Brick:
      Cumsprite,

      No, you were not right in think GRRM is your bitch or that you have any right to flog a wealthy old man because he ain’t slaving away hard enough for you. Get over it. Life is short and I fully respect George’s right to enjoy the fruits of his success.

      Bondage analogies, GO!

        Quote  Reply

    223. Chad Brick:
      Cumsprite,

      Right about what? It now looks highly likely that TWOW will be out late this year.A 2016 release date has been the most common estimate for years and represents similar times to write ADWD and TWOW. I am not dissapointed by this news at all. Just the opposite! I am happy to learn he is on track and close to finishing.

      No, you were not right in think GRRM is your bitch or that you have any right to flog a wealthy old man because he ain’t slaving away hard enough for you. Get over it. Life is short and I fully respect George’s right to enjoy the fruits of his success.

      Right about how his extracurricular activities have negatively impacted ASOIAF.

      Right about how, despite Martin’s repeated assertions, writing ASOIAF was not his top priority.

      No one is asking him to slave away at the books to the exclusion of all else. They are hoping (not demanding, mind you) that he stops dicking around.

        Quote  Reply

    224. cosca,

      I was about to give up today. But then I searched my feelings. I know it to be true. It’s 2016. You will have to suck it up buttercup.

        Quote  Reply

    225. Chad Brick:
      Does anyone else find it interesting that GRRM is working in a Theon chapter at this late stage in the game? Presumably he writes more or less sequentially, so this info strongly hints that Theon will be around until at least the latter part of the book.

      Unless he still isn’t past page 100.

        Quote  Reply

    226. cosca:
      TormundsWoman,

      I would just like to make an addendum: GRRM is HBO’s bitch at the very least.

      You know in your heart of hearts that the book is years away TW. Search your feelings

      Most definitely HBO’s bitch. And I have a subscription to HBO. So that makes him my bitch by subscription.

        Quote  Reply

    227. cosca,

      That was a different claim. Last years’. 2016 is not 2015. Do keep up Cosca. I don’t have time to explain everything to you. I’m making a fresh batch of cookies so I can put them on this year.

        Quote  Reply

    228. cosca,

      Indeed, GRRM stated that he is months aeay from finishing if all goes well. At this point, I do not expect to see Winter rekeased until after the series is done.

        Quote  Reply

    229. What i really hate is people acting like Neil Gaiman is their bitch, and just copy-pasting his work everywhere instead of doing some of their own.

      it’s not right.

        Quote  Reply

    230. cosca:
      Cary Storm,

      Well there you go. Considering that GRRM is clearly your bitch, sir, how do you feel about his abysmal work ethic?

      If this were a proper business, we’d fire him and hire someone else to do it properly. At least force retirement.

        Quote  Reply

    231. flintstonewielder:
      cosca,

      Chad´s bubble is unburstable.
      Fact.

      How could you read GRRM’s post and not conclude he is a few months away from finishing?

      And care to bet on a release date? I could use a second bottle of wine to go along with the one mau owes me. I’ll enjoy them both as I read TWOW this fall.

        Quote  Reply

    232. TormundsWoman,

      All I’m saying is that your credibility is shot TW, it will be difficult to recover from such a grievous blow.

      Consorting with known vagabonds and book purists such as Chad Brick doesn’t help matters.

        Quote  Reply

    233. Cary Storm,

      In all honestly doesn’t look like he’s HBO ‘s either. Martin did say they were expecting him to have the book out by 2016 before S6. His publishers too. Yet it looks like they have taken it fairly well, according to his post. Not many get away with that I suppose. But I guess they know Martin by now.

        Quote  Reply

    234. Chad Brick: How could you read GRRM’s post and not conclude he is a few months away from finishing?

      Because he said how he needs many chapters to finish, my dear Chad.

      and care to bet on a release date?

      2019

        Quote  Reply

    235. Chad Brick: How could you read GRRM’s post and not conclude he is a few months away from finishing?

      How could you read his post and be so utterly convinced he’s only a few months from being finished?

        Quote  Reply

    236. cosca,

      Chad and I share a vision. It’s not that I approve of his “not your bitch” lyric chorus motif he has going one against some posters here (sorry Chad, no offense!) but honestly, I really wish and hope for Martin’s sake as well as my own to read that book this year.

      I’m destroyed that my creed is so low. Must needs improvement! #TWoW2016 will surely do the job!

        Quote  Reply

    237. Haven’t read the whole thread but has any one noticed Martin’s minor spoiler that Theon is alive probably a good two thirds of the way into the book. I know he might be be writing chapters out of order but I very much doubt it. Martin discovers his narrative detail through the writing process he moves forward in a linear fashion then comes back to re write, hone and incorporate new elements discovered in later chapters. If he’s six months away hes covered a lot of material already.

        Quote  Reply

    238. TormundsWoman:
      cosca,

      I was about to give up today. But then I searched my feelings. I know it to be true. It’s 2016. You will have to suck it up buttercup.

      Why don’t you suck it up, Buttercup baby
      ‘Cuz GURM let you down and then dicks around
      And then best of all, Dance was a ball, baby
      Though you say it’s ill
      But I love GURM stilll
      I need GURM
      More than anyone, darlin’
      You know that I have from the start
      So suck it up and smell my farts.

        Quote  Reply

    239. Vegodread,

      Thank you so much for your insightful words and kind wishes. I very much enjoy this site for the same reasons you do. It’s a place to let you ASongofIceandFire/GameofThrones flag fly.

      Thank you kindly once again!

        Quote  Reply

    240. Simon,

      Maybe, but he’s been a few months away from finishing the new Dunk and Egg for two years and counting. When says he is three or four months from finishing something, you have to convert to Martin Time. Kinda like dog years.

        Quote  Reply

    241. Cumsprite: Why don’t you suck it up, Buttercup baby
      ‘Cuz GURM let you down and then dicks around
      And then best of all, Dance was a ball, baby
      Though you say it’s ill
      But I love GURM stilll
      I need GURM
      More than anyone, darlin’
      You know that I have from the start
      So suck it up and smell my farts.

      Your age is showing by those 60s pop music references, old man.

        Quote  Reply

    242. Vegodread:
      Esmeralda,

      Also, I admire the mother of us all, Sue – she is who really drives this site and the discussions without the heavy hand most website administrators bring to the table.

      I will, from now on, refer to Sue as Mhysa! Mhysa! Mhysa!

        Quote  Reply

    243. cosca: Because he said how he needs many chapters to finish, my dear Chad.

      2019

      Where did he say how many chapters he needs to finish? He understandably didn’t provide numbers.

      I’ll take your bet. Shall we wager a bottle Stag’s Leap Petite Syrah? I shall enjoy drinking it on your behalf. Look me up, I am easy to find.

        Quote  Reply

    244. Esmeralda:

      Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
      Do you feel a part of the community here?
      What is so engaging about this site?

      Hi Esmeralda! Glad to help

      1. Pau, Chad Brick
      2. No, I am not worthy
      3. Luminaries such as Pau and Chad Brick

        Quote  Reply

    245. Cumsprite,

      Ugh, always with the farts! It’s why I always feel like bashing you proper whenever I see one of your righteous:” I told you so, we were right” posts! If Chad wouldn’t have stepped in with his annoying “not your bitch” I would have totally given you a piece of my mind. Would have told you to take your “I told you so and put it where the sun don’t shine” that’s what. But he HAD to say something.

      And it doesn’t rhyme anyway. And has not music. Needs more cowbell.

        Quote  Reply

    246. So they annunced the Season 4 premiere date on January 10th and the Season 5 premiere date on January 8th. Do you think they’ll announce the exact premiere date for Season 6 by next weekend?

        Quote  Reply

    247. Chad Brick: Where did he say how many chapters he needs to finish? He understandably didn’t provide numbers.

      I’ll take your bet. Shall we wager a bottle Stag’s Leap Petite Syrah? I shall enjoy drinking it on your behalf. Look me up, I am easy to find.

      If he did not provide numbers, how is he close to finishing, buddy?

      Chad, I don’t want to get so serious, so fast. Let this E-relationship fester a while, grow into something beautiful and pure.

        Quote  Reply

    248. Esmeralda,

      1) Peer pressure
      2) Yes, well, sort of a meta-community, in which we all go back to our little homes in places like fleabottom.net when the interesting discussion has ebbed.
      3) the wonderful personalities of the mods: Sue the Fury. Axey. Marko.

        Quote  Reply

    249. cosca,

      I´m actually with Chadster on this one. Later in 2016, the publisher will knock on GRRM´s door and tell him *George, give us everything you got, including the stuff that Linda and Elio are writing for you. Anne will edit into something remotely resembling a book and we´ll call it “Two battles and a turd”. It will fly, the sycos will have it nominated for the Nobel Prize*. Release date will be Xmas 2016, and on New Year´s day, George will communicate an 8th volume to the series because he so much more to share. We never hear from aS0IaF again after that – it´s all Puppies and Wild Cards on the NAB from then on.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Esmeralda,

      1. Good news site for GoT news. The best to my knowledge.
      2. Spirited discussions, varied opinions (no tan echo chamber) and funny posters
      3. It’s pretty relaxed for ASoIAF too. Not only GoT. Unless you get the book purist vs show apologist day. Then all bets are off and I usually step away. And yes, mods have a very open mind attitude. Unless you suddenly go ad hominem on someone. Which is when Sue is making the law. Rightfully so!

        Quote  Reply

    251. TormundsWoman:
      Esmeralda,

      1. Good news site for GoT news. The best to my knowledge.
      2. Spirited discussions, varied opinions (no tan echo chamber) and funny posters
      3. It’s pretty relaxed for ASoIAF too. Not only GoT. Unless you get the book purist vs show apologist day. Then all bets are off and I usually step away. And yes, mods have a very open mind attitude. Unless you suddenly go ad hominem on someone. Which is when Sue is making the law. Rightfully so!

      Seconding all of this. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    252. What this really tells us is that GRRM will never finish Book 7. Do the math….

      Book 6 is likely to come out in 2017. That would be 6 years between books 4/5 and 5/6.

      This means ADOS won’t be out until 2023 when GRRM is 75.

      Does anybody really think that will happen?

        Quote  Reply

    253. Esmeralda:
      Hey everyone!

      Im a journalism student studying social media communities and I wanted to ask a few research questions from this community.

      Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
      Do you feel a part of the community here?
      What is so engaging about this site?

      Would appreciate any response!

      Thanks Watchers!

      1. Masochism, mainly. And they tend to do a good job of gathering all bits of new info, whether it’s from other sites or their own super duper secret sources. I’m also keeping a running tally of how many times Wimsey refers to Harry Potter for one analogy or another.

      2. Sure! Mostly when people disagree with me.

      3. The responses. The predictable unpredictability of which unrelated bit of casting news gets turned into a discussion of Sansaaaaaa.

        Quote  Reply

    254. Cary Storm: I’m all for GRRM-bashing as much as the next person. But fuck that ageism.

      Ageism or the truth?

      People was bashed for saying he wouldn’t finish the book 6 before season 6 came out.

        Quote  Reply

    255. Pigeon: I’m also keeping a running tally of how many times Wimsey refers to Harry Potter for one analogy or another.

      LOL!

        Quote  Reply

    256. Wimsey:
      cosca,

      Indeed, GRRM stated that he is months aeay from finishing if all goes well.At this point, I do not expect to see Winter rekeased until after the series is done.

      So Fall or Winter 2016 is too optimistic? ?

        Quote  Reply

    257. cosca: If he did not provide numbers, how is he close to finishing, buddy?

      Chad, I don’t want to get so serious, so fast. Let this E-relationship fester a while, grow into something beautiful and pure.

      That Syrah is something beautiful and pure, but in any case, five months ago GRRM estimate he could push and finish in four. He failed, but clearly took a chunk out of it. So maybe their are 2-3 months worth left at his unattainable fast pace and something like six months at his real one. I see no reason to think otherwise. This would correspond to a release around November, which the publishers would love.

        Quote  Reply

    258. Luka Nieto: Go to other sites for the petty insults —that is not permitted here.

      Third post on this very thread insults an entire group of people at another site. So for future reference, are insults only not permitted here when they’re directed at aspects of the show? Thanks in advance.

        Quote  Reply

    259. Rygar:
      Pau,

      Ageist

      So that’s a thing now!! Never heard the word before and I had to look it up…don’t worry man, doc told me I’d need reading glasses in 2-3 years so… 😉

        Quote  Reply

    260. The Bastard:
      What this really tells us is that GRRM will never finish Book 7.Do the math….

      Book 6 is likely to come out in 2017.That would be 6 years between books 4/5 and 5/6.

      This means ADOS won’t be out until 2023 when GRRM is 75.

      Does anybody really think that will happen?

      Oh my god I forgot about ADOS. Oh crap. When will we get that book?

        Quote  Reply

    261. Ok…..nobody will read down this far, bottom-supporting or not, but this is nagging at me and I need to get this off my chest.

      GRRM has spread himself too thin in his responsibilities. This is nothing that hasn’t been said before, but we’re going on 4.5 years between books 5 & 6, and we hear more about this anthology or that novella collection, or the cocteau, or the wolf sanctuary, or any number of other events and activities that he’s gotten involved in.

      I understand, in a way. There’s precedent for taking this long between books in a series. Stephen King took 21 years to finish books 1-5 of The Dark Tower (1982-2003). Then due to pressure from irritated publishers and readers, coupled with his own desire to finish, he cranked out the final two volumes in one year (2004). No, don’t fact check me, I’m going on personal experience as a dark tower fan and by what I read in 2003.

      Think what you want, but these empty cries of support and “understanding” for the pressure that George says he’s under and his problems setting and/or meeting deadlines rings a bit hollow to me. He’s brought it all on himself for taking on too damn much.

      I do believe that, like anyone, GRRM is entitled to a break now and then, and sometimes the thought train just isn’t chugging on a particular day. But when you’re planning a series of shows at your theater, editing a wild cards book, writing dunk and egg, supporting a wolf sanctuary, watching the jets and giants, and the rest of the things his schedule is packed with, complaining about pressure and your inability to focus on what has become your most noteworthy work seems a bit petty.

      All my views I’ve laid out here will of course be forgotten when I buy TWOW like everybody else. Just clean out your schedule, george, and focus on what’s making you the most money and giving you the most notoriety.

        Quote  Reply

    262. Chad Brick:
      So mau…

      About our bet that TWOW will be out before 2018. Are you ready to concede? Or will I have to nag you later this year when the publication day is annouced?

      I’ll accept a good bottle of red wine as the prize. Thanks.

      Sigh…

        Quote  Reply

    263. doug: Third post on this very thread insults an entire group of people at another site. So for future reference, are insults only not permitted here when they’re directed at aspects of the show? Thanks in advance.

      So you have never been in AFOIAF? Let me summarize it to you in a few words. Basically, you will be insulted/attacked/called an show apologist/called a retard if you dare to say you like the show. And that’s it.

        Quote  Reply

    264. Lord Parramandas:
      I was bothered by Tysha omission as well, but from TV perspective, Tyrion’s storyline actually made sense.

      No. Objectively, removing Tysha as the central motivation behind Tyrion killing Tywin didn’t make sense. You’re just resorting to a sour grapes attitude of accepting when things fall into place in the narrative without internal plot logic.

      No. Elio and Linda co-wrote a book with Martin and are therefore “creators” – YES they are “authorities” and you owe them respect.

      YES Game of Thrones Wiki will compare the TV show to the novels. …other wikis are outright devoted to fan-fiction on other movies and TV series — A wiki is whatever you make it. Again: if you’re only looking for utterly neutral recaps and some casting information….why aren’t you just using Wikipedia.org’s pages? The *entire point* of GoTWiki is as a fan guide.

      Again…..that’s what a wiki…IS. It’s like you’ve gone onto Tumblr and thought it absurd that people post fanart on it.

        Quote  Reply

    265. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      I think it’s a pretty safe bet it’s the 24th of April.

      Yeah I’m just wondering when they will officially announce it since they announced the past 2 season premieres within the first 10 days of January. Silicon Valley and Veep will have to premiere March 1st it looks like because the Girls finale is April 24th and I don’t see how they can do GoT, Silicon, and Veep premieres all on the 24th with the Girls finale.

        Quote  Reply

    266. The Dragon Demands,

      Tyrion’s love lied in front of everybody about him and then had sex with his dad. That was motivation to kill her. The books barely set her up as an important character before her death. The show did a much better job.

      And then motivation for Tyrion killing his father was clear cut in the show. His father treated him poorly for multiple seasons.

      The show stands on its own.

        Quote  Reply

    267. Matthew The Dragon knight: I was also hoping for some new interviews talking about season 6 or the characters, those are always a ton of fun to read. Also since The teaser poster for Season 6 of jon snow came out on November 23rd, and the Teaser Trailer for season 6 came out on the 3rd, i’m under The belief they might Drop the Season 6 trailer on the 26th if not earlier maybe even the 6th. just a guess from what i’m putting together.

      Usually they announce the premiere date early January and then the trailer a few weeks after.

        Quote  Reply

    268. I feel bad for the book readers who won’t get to finish the story as the book
      But I am glad that they have been provided with an opportunity to finish this spectacular story through the show.
      I have the books and haven’t read them.
      I hesitate on starting if the book series will never be finished . It’s a predicament!

        Quote  Reply

    269. The Dragon Demands: YES Game of Thrones Wiki will compare the TV show to the novels.…other wikis are outright devoted to fan-fiction on other movies and TV series — A wiki is whatever you make it.Again:if you’re only looking for utterly neutral recaps and some casting information….why aren’t you just using Wikipedia.org’s pages?The *entire point* of GoTWiki is as a fan guide.

      Again…..that’s what a wiki…IS. It’s like you’ve gone onto Tumblr and thought it absurd that people post fanart on it.

      “Many major critics and review sources, however, reacted to the wins by expressing that Season 5 was probably the weakest season of Game of Thrones to date – compared to its own prior seasons. This led to discussion about whether the Emmy voting system was skewed or out of touch.”

      I got this from the wiki. I don’t care what you call it, but it was from the section called “Awards” for “Season 5”. Not “critical and fan opinion”.

      It reeks of book purists mad about the show….

        Quote  Reply

    270. The Dragon Demands: Objectively

      As a book reader, it would be impossible to be objective about whether, without the inclusion of Tysha, Tyrion had enough motivation to kill Tywin. The only people who could be objective about that are Unsullied. If they thought Tyrion had plenty of reason to kill Tywin, Tysha was not a necessary element, since they wouldn’t know that part from the books had been omitted.

      Jack Bauer 24,

      I think I’m chomping at the bit too much for some sort of trailer to really care too much about an official announcement of the premiere date. If I didn’t feel pretty confident about what that date would be, I’d probably care a lot more.

        Quote  Reply

    271. The Bastard,

      As for the Emmy awards, I also cited other publications that disagreed and thought the season was decent enough – you’re quoting that out of context.

      But look I don’t want to drag this out more on WOTW…

        Quote  Reply

    272. Deesensfan,

      The first three novels (Game, Clash, Storm) are outstanding and worth reading. I found the last two (Feast, Dance) mediocre at best. I’d say read the first three, and rely on the show for what comes after.

        Quote  Reply

    273. Lauren,

      Sorry, but I can easily see him taking it well into next year or the year after. I think this book will be a monstrous size, and even more exhausting to read (although thrilling still) than ADWD.

        Quote  Reply

    274. Anonne,

      It’s all speculation in the end, isn’t it? It’ll be here when it’s here and I’ll be happy for it whenever that happens. I never saw it coming before 2017 anyway so I’m not shocked by any of this and if it doesn’t come next year, oh well.

        Quote  Reply

    275. Jack Bauer 24: Usually they announce the premiere date early January and then the trailer a few weeks after.

      so HBO might announce a premier Date for season 6 next week ? or guessing when they do announce it we can pretty much guess when they will drop a trailer.

        Quote  Reply

    276. Deesensfan,

      Yeah I think if I hadn’t been a book reader I would be uncertain if I wanted to start now too. I think Cersei’s Brain’s advice to wait until TWoW comes out is good advice. At least you will only be waiting for only (hopefully) one more book instead of more. I know a lot of people complain about AFFC, but I find that when you read ADWD right after it, it’s a little less frustrating because you don’t feel like you are only reading half a book and are waiting forever for the other half to arrive.

        Quote  Reply

    277. I got this from the wiki.I don’t care what you call it,but it was from the section called “Awards” for “Season 5”.Not “critical and fan opinion”.

      It reeks of book purists mad about the show….

      Or is simply an accurate reflection of the fact that in all fields, awards tend to have an element of lifetime achievement even when they are not supposed to.

        Quote  Reply

    278. Chad Brick: Or is simply an accurate reflection of the fact that in all fields, awards tend to have an element of lifetime achievement even when they are not supposed to.

      Or maybe Chadster, the Pippi Longstocking of the board, is pulling stuff out of his nose again.

        Quote  Reply

    279. Well, I’ve read the books after watching the show (more precisely after the 5th season) and I enjoyed them anyway, very much! I literally devoured those books… Just like I enjoyed several other books I’ve read after watching the film adaptations. If a book is good, it doesn’t matter if you already know the story. You can read a book about Napoleon or Spartacus and love it, even if you already know their fate, right? And it’s always interesting to find the differences with the adaptation and learn the many many details you can only find in the books. And luckily, the 2 media are very different. An adaptation will never replace the book. They works differently, different sensations, different emotions… Books are more powerful, I think. They can even make you forget you already know the story and enjoy the reading as if you were inside that story… 😉

        Quote  Reply

    280. The Dragon Demands:
      The Bastard,

      As for the Emmy awards, I also cited other publications that disagreed and thought the season was decent enough – you’re quoting that out of context.

      But look I don’t want to drag this out more on WOTW…

      It’s not about citations. The opinion piece is out of place in a fact based section.

      Also, it is extremely odd that somebody would devote hours and hours to updating a wiki for something they obviously don’t like.

        Quote  Reply

    281. flintstonewielder: Or maybe Chadster, the Pippi Longstocking of the board, is pulling stuff out of his nose again.

      Sometimes I think you disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing. Keep it up and soon I’ll have you railing against mom, apple pies and puppies.

        Quote  Reply

    282. Ser Creighton Longbough,

      I have never thought books are more powerful.

      Movies have sound effects, music, visuals, and dialogue. The only thing it misses is internal thoughts. And a great actor and portray them on screen anyways.

      Look at Charles Dance. There are not enough words in the world to describe his presence in Game of Thrones. From his walk, to his mannerisms, to his ability to speak. Obviously my words don’t do it justice either….

        Quote  Reply

    283. Deesensfan,

      I’d say reading the books would add to your experience of watching the show. One of the biggest plus points of reading the books for me is we get to go inside the heads of the PoVs and know their thoughts, which really adds to their characters, esp characters like Jon and Dany. Plus I enjoy the world building too. The first 3 books are great, the last 2 while not at the same level, are still a good read, esp ADWD. Maybe you could start once S6 is done and hopefully by the time you are done, WOW comes out 🙂 .

        Quote  Reply

    284. Chad Brick,

      Bro, I´m trying to help you, nothing else. But it´s tough. You´re the type of person that thinks the Earth is flat because that´s the way it looks on all those internet pics.

      Coming Xmas, why don´t you stay up overnight so you can see that it´s Mommy who is filling your stockings, not Santa Claus. You will be devastated, but it will be a magnificent growing-up experience for you.

        Quote  Reply

    285. It’s not too much of a surprise that TWOW won’t be out until later 2016 at the earliest. I think he’s under a lot of pressure from both HBO and his publishers to get it out this year. I don’t blame them. His publishers would have preferred to have it by now to have it ready for a summer release. More than likely if it is a 2016 release, it will be either a November or December in store date. That gives him until summer to finish the book for a quick turn around.

        Quote  Reply

    286. The Bastard,

      Meh. When you watch a movie, you’re at the mercy of the director, the actors and the elements you mentioned. If the actor is bad, or the directing is bad, then your experience gets affected or gets limited by it.

      With books, the only limits you have is your imagination. And you know what they say about imagination…

        Quote  Reply

    287. Pigeon,

      Tut, tut: they are comparisons, not analogies! But you can count those if you wish. (Feel free to count my references to Chekov’s Gun, Occam’s Razor, Doctor Who and my Shark Tyrannosaurus analogy, too.) I am just that sort of guy!

        Quote  Reply

    288. Shadow Shifter:
      The Bastard,

      Meh. When you watch a movie, you’re at the mercy of the director, the actors and the elements you mentioned. If the actor is bad, or the directing is bad, then your experience gets affected or gets limited by it.

      With books, the only limits you have is your imagination. And you know what they say about imagination…

      Imagination you say?

      *** STAR WARS 7 SPOILER ALERT***

      It’s been 3 weeks since the movie has been out, so it should be okay to discuss it. And nobody has ever claimed that the acting in Star Wars is top notch.

      Look at the scene when Kylo Ren is trying to use the force to get the lightsaber out of the snow. Instead, Rey uses the force instead to retrieve the lightsaber. During that scene…. We have an amazing John Williams score. There is nothing in my imagination that is as awesome as a John Williams Star Wars soundtrack. I could read a million books in a lifetime and never think up his music to go along with a scene.

      SW: 1
      Imagination: 0

      The sound of the the lightsaber. How can text describe that sound? It can’t. There are no words to describe how awesome that sounds to the human ear. How about Darth’s Vader breathing? Could you send chills down a readers spine by describing it in text? Not a chance.

      SW: 2
      Imagination: 0

      How about the look on Rey’s face. 80% of human communication is done non-verbally. There was more information passed along to the viewers in her facial expressions alone then a GRRM 2 page food description.

      SW: 3
      Imagination: 0

      I could go on. I know it is cool to say books are better, but they really aren’t. My imagination is nice, but the experts can go beyond my imagination in movies. Books just can’t do that….

        Quote  Reply

    289. Matthew The Dragon knight: so HBO might announce a premier Date for season 6 next week ? or guessing when they do announce it we can pretty much guess when they will drop a trailer.

      Yeah hopefully. They announced the premieres for Seasons 4 and 5 within the first 10 days of January.

        Quote  Reply

    290. Wimsey:
      Pigeon,

      Tut, tut: they are comparisons, not analogies!But you can count those if you wish.(Feel free to count my references to Chekov’s Gun, Occam’s Razor, Doctor Who and my SharkTyrannosaurus analogy, too.) I am just that sort of guy!

      237……

      I kid, of course. There’s always a point of some sort! 😉

        Quote  Reply

    291. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Yes you can’t be objective in that situation.
      When Tyrion killed his father on the show, I kept thinking, I think Tyrion would only murder for Tysha. I wondered if show-only peeps thought it was in character for him.
      I watched the 1st season or two before reading the 1st 3 books.

        Quote  Reply

    292. Jeff O’Connor,

      Here Here! Cheers to all of this!
      + but mostly the crazy ass posts & posters! Especially the ones who txt like they’re British, but totally arent!?
      This place ROCKS!
      Btw, Merry Christmas ya filthy animals! & a HAPPY NEW YEAR!! ?

        Quote  Reply

    293. Jack Bauer 24: Yeah hopefully. They announced the premieres for Seasons 4 and 5 within the first 10 days of January.

      well let’s hope, hopefully they announce it on the 6th XD lol crosses fingers :p

        Quote  Reply

    294. S6 SPOILERS by Episode (locations, characters, scenes)
      Not much director info to go on, so with some guesswork + leaked info, here’s what Season 6 E1-E10 may look like. Some characters/scenes may not be in the right episodes/locations. Some locations may be part of other locations (visions). Some scenes are speculated & some may be wrong.

      E1
      THE WALL – Jon funeral, Edd, Melisandre & Davos discussion. Tormund.
      DOTHRAKI SEA – Dothraki take Dany hostage.
      MEEREEN – Starving mom & baby frightened by Tyrion w/Varys & Missendei. Yezzan.
      LAST HEARTH – Osha, Rickon, Smalljon Umber.
      KING’S LANDING – Mountain & Cersei await Jaime & Myrcella at dock.

      E2
      PYKE –
      WINTERFELL – Sansa & Theon in Godswood/Northern forests. Ramsay. Brienne.
      VALE – Yohn Royce, Robin Arryn.
      BRAAVOS – Jaqen, Theater, Blind Arya.
      KING’S LANDING – High Sparrow.
      RIVERLANDS – Walder & Merrett Frey. Bowen.
      WESTEROS – Sam

      E3
      IRON ISLANDS –
      MEEREEN – Missendei & Grey Worm. Kinvara addresses people of Meereen & interacts w/Tyrion, Varys. Shae. Hungry extras. Children. Granary. Varys says goodbye to Tyrion at port.
      DOTHRAKI SEA – Khalasar travel w/Dany towards Vaes Dothrak & make camp.
      VAES DOTHRAK – Khalsmoot, large celebration. Jorah & Daario spy on camp & plot to rescue Dany. Young Widow.
      BRAAVOS – Blind Arya begging in street. Waif comes upon her & hits her w/stick. Mace heads home to Westeros.
      RIVERLANDS – BWB, Meribald brings the Hound back.

      E4
      KING’S LANDING – Tommen. Olenna yells at Mace for doing nothing about Loras & Margaery’s imprisonment.
      DORNE – Hotah, Doran, Tyene, & Ellaria, Yezzan, Razdal, Obara, Olenna, Varys.
      VAES DOTHRAK – Khal confrontation. 400 extras, battle/brawl. Drogon fire.
      WESTEROS – Sam & Gilly. Distinguished Man.
      BRAAVOS – King’s Landing play at Theater.

      E5
      WINTERFELL – Snowy woods just outside battlefield. Brienne vicious fighting.
      THE WALL – Jon, Melisandre, very exciting scene, Tormund, White Walker army. Othell Yarwyck. Alliser Thorne. Smoke.
      PYKE – Rope bridge. Euron arrives & meets Aeron. Kingsmoot, Ironmen, Theon, Yara.
      THE REACH – Tarly family dinner w/Sam.
      KING’S LANDING – Cersei, Qyburn, Pycelle. Qyburn’s laboratory – Qyburn, Pycelle, some others in minor parts, child.
      BEYOND THE WALL – Bran, Hodor, 3 Eyed Raven cave. Children of the Forest action scenes?
      BRAAVOS – Arya, Izembaro.
      MEEREEN – Tyrion, Varys, Shae, Unsullied, Masters.

      E6
      WINTERFELL – Courtyard tension, giant turns up at the gates & tries to force its way in & people inside have to fight it off. Sansa, Jon Snow, Ramsay, Littlefinger. Horses, extras.
      RIVERLANDS – Merrett & Walder Frey.
      RIVERRUN – Bronn; Jaime & Blackfish argue w/Blackfish possibly defending garrison & shooting flaming arrows. Frey troop.
      VAES DOTHRAK – Dany, Dothraki, Daario.
      BEYOND THE WALL – ToJ in Dorne. Young Hodor, young Ned & his younger siblings. Stark family flashback w/origin of Hodor.
      KING’S LANDING – Throne Room – Cersei, Jaime, Hand of the King. Sept of Baelor – Jaime & Tyrell soldiers, Gold Cloaks, Lannister soldiers, Tommen march on Sept of Baelor. High Sparrow & Faith Militant, Lancel release Marg.
      ESSOS – Tyrion, 40 slaves, Unsullied, Dany, Drogon.
      VOLANTIS – Bridge.
      High Born Lady (Well-Heeled Lady 2?) hires courtesan for party.

      E7 – Bryan Cogman
      OLDTOWN – Sam speaks w/a maester at Citadel in Oldtown. Gilly.
      BRAAVOS – Arya goes to the King’s Landing play at the theater.
      Old Lady, Pale Young Man.

      E8 – Bryan Cogman
      BRAAVOS – Waif stabs Arya. Arya jumps out of a window & escapes into a side alley while Waif pursues her. Waif runs along a wall & jumps/falls off it. Arya jumps in water. Westerosi Sea Captain.
      RIVERLANDS – Graveyard – Pod.
      RIVERRUN – Brienne argues w/Jaime in his tent & chats w/Bfish. Bronn pleased 2 c Pod & sneaks up behind him & pretends to attack him. Edmure, BWB, Merrett Frey.

      E9
      THE WALL – Jon Snow convinces wildlings to fight Boltons by his side.
      THE NORTH – Manderly, Cerwyn, Yohn Royce, Sansa.
      WINTERFELL – Battle of the Bastards. Ramsay, Karstarks, Umbers vs Jon, wildlings, Davos, Wun Wun. Mormonts, Starks, Hornwoods battle. Haggard Lord, Captain of the Tower. Umbers, Karstarks, Boltons & wildlings dead.

      E10
      MEEREEN – Razdal.
      Newborn Baby w/black hair, brown eyes.

        Quote  Reply

    295. The Dragon Demands

      No. Elio and Linda co-wrote a book with Martin and are therefore “creators” – YES they are “authorities” and you owe them respect.

      Citing Tywin Lannister: I would rather let myself be consumed by maggots before mocking my name and showing these two any respect, especially Linda.

      “Is it harassment for me to tell you that you’re a cunt? No.”
      “I am not ever going to be interested in having a polite discussion with you.”
      “You don’t get the consideration of politeness or courtesy of me. That’s for human beings, not trolls.”
      “I see no reason whatsoever to express myself in anything but the most disrespectful terms to a bunch of hysterical girls who started screaming “omg, you’re horribly sexist, racist, whatever-ist!” based on their warped and completely fucked up “social justice” agenda. I don’t want there to be any misunderstandings possible about the fact that I have no respect at all for them or their opinions and that I consider their existence a waste of natural resources.”
      “See, I think you should stop worrying about what the A Song of Ice and Fire fandom is like, because you’re not part of it. You’re part of the fandom of a pretty weird and sometimes rather sick interpretation of the books, which has nothing to do with the actual story.”

      Honestly, how could you possibly believe that a person like Linda deserves ANY respect? She is the sole reason I haven’t purchased The World of Ice and Fire.

      And do you know why I discuss this at WOTW? Because if I had said anything against you on GoT wiki or god-forbid tried to edit/tone down your subjective writing, you would permanently ban me for “harrassing” the administrator.

      You are a complete joke, The Dragon Demands.

        Quote  Reply

    296. Esmeralda:
      Why do you keep returning to the Watchers on the Wall?
      Do you feel a part of the community here?
      What is so engaging about this site?

      Late to the party as always – hope you still get to the answer!

      I think it’s a pretty complex question, and part of it is actually why I’m attracted to GoT at all. So, let’s start!

      1. I’m a data junkie, I love predicting where things go, having my predictions confirmed, and also having superior knowledge. It’s a quirk of my mind – I get addicted to data. I love following international politics for the same reason! So, GoT attracts me because it’s an unfinished narrative (and a narrative is much easier to deal with than reality, since stories are supposed to make sense, while reality doesn’t); and this site attracts me because it feeds me spoilers;
      2. Conversely, I absolutely hate all the bullshit which comes of being on social media under your real name. I want to discuss stuff, not have to regularly congratulate people on having birthdays. So, for example, on the Internet, I don’t have a Facebook account, but I do have a Reddit account, because that’s nominally anonymous. This place is nominally anonymous as well – after a time, I have learned the positions of the most frequent posters here, and could probably even repeat them if I strained to, but, crucially, I don’t have to care about their ages, genders, nationalities, money and/or power status, the number of spouses and/or children and, yeah, the birthdays of all these. This is attractive to me;
      3. So far, I have mostly only explained my attraction to anonymised sites in this particular fandom. Why this place in particular (apart from the spoiler-feeding business?)? Well, as a community, this place is both positive towards the show and, crucially, extraordinarily respectful to the runners of the Game of Thrones show. Some places in the fandom, especially westeros.org, aren’t – it’s not just that it is full of people with negative opinions about the show, open invectives towards the showrunners are tolerated there, if not silently encouraged. I’m not really interested in being in a place like that.

      Also, if I’m to be frank, I also prefer a place where I can be to some extent assured that the most frequent opinions agree with mine. After all, it’s just a TV show fandom, and not a case where resolving the differences in opinion is at all crucial (think politics again). You can call it self-segregation and/or homophily, I guess.

      So, in summary: a fandom wit