Watchers on the Wall Awards: Best Fights and Battles of Season 8

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Welcome back for another exciting round of Watchers on the Wall Awards Finals! This week, as part of our ongoing celebration of season 8, we’ll be voting on the best action sequences of Game of Thrones. Every season is packed with action, and the final one was no exception. We break down our voting into Best Battle and Best Fight, and our readers have narrowed down the finalists for our categories today. It’s time to announce the final nominees, and vote!

The nominees for Best Battle are:

Battle for Winterfell (“The Long Night”)

Daenerys battles Euron’s Iron Fleet (“The Last of the Starks”)

Battle of King’s Landing ( “The Bells”)

*These are not the battles in their entirety- they’re too long for most YouTube clips, but this should be enough to refresh your memory! Or get you started on a bender of rewatching favorite GoT clips which is also fun.*

The nominees for Best Fight of Season 8 are:

Arya takes on wights with her customized spear on the ramparts

The Clegane Brothers fight to the death

Jon and Daenerys fight the Night King on dragonback

Jorah Mormont and Daenerys fight off wights together

Lyanna Mormont faces off against a giant

The complete results from round 1 voting for Best Fight can be viewed here. 

Both polls are found below, so go forth, debate, consider and vote!


Final round rules: To choose winners, cast your vote in each category in the polls below. In the finals, unlike the preliminaries, fans have one vote to cast in each category. At the end of one week (Friday 11/25/19 at 12PM ET), the battle/fight in each category with the most votes will be the winner! The results of the polls will be revealed during the live Watchers on the Wall Awards ceremony, specific date to be announced in the near future.

Vote for Best Battle:

Vote for Best Fight:

207 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Daenerys burning KL is the best battle of S8 and the best battle of the entire show for me. I imagined her attack on KL for years and it was exactly what I wanted. Chaos everywhere and lot of deaths. It is probably one of the most spectacular moments in TV history in general. When we had opportunity to watch a dragon burn a city before?

      It made Smaug’s destruction in the Hobbit trilogy look like children playing.

      What I really liked about The Bells and The Spoils of War is how, despite having a dragon in it, realistic it felt. You could feel how it would feel to have a dragon burn a city or an army. It felt like we were on the ground with the Lannisters.

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    2. Daenerys and Jon vs The Night King was the best fight. What I liked here is how, again, realistic it felt. It wasn’t like a battle from fantasy story, it was fight between 3 wild animals.

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    3. Easy-peasy one there: TLN/BoW/B4W (ep. 3)+Jorah & Dany vs. wights. Despite the disappointing brevity of the “long” night, it contained my favorite bits of the season, and is the only one I could even consider choosing. And it did me proud to see Daenerys down there, sticken’ ‘em with the pointy end alongside her ever-faithful friend. ;.;

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    4. Best Battle: The Long Night. The actual Battle of King’s Landing with armed forces clashing with each other really only lasted for like 5-10 minutes, and the majority of that was Drogon versus the scorpions. Exhilarating for sure, but all-too-brief. The Long Night was the main course and the Battle of King’s Landing was like a desert. Although they’re both pretty equal in terms of balls-to-the-wall carnage, because of the one-sided nature of the latter after Dany snaps, the mood completely changes and it DOES get a tad bit tedious for me after a while in a way that the former never does. As for the Ambush at Dragonstone… yeah, no. Not comparable to the other two at all. One of those instances for me where the idea is fine, but the execution is kinda lacking, like Ramsay and his 20 Good Men. @ me if you want me to elaborate.

      Best Fight: Jon & Dany versus NK on dragonback. I enjoy all the other ones too, but the sheer scale, ferocity, and novelty of this fight still makes me grin from ear-to-ear. It might just be among Jon’s finest character moments too: “The North is my home and I will never stop fighting for it, no matter the odds.” We saw those words put into action, and he fought in such a way that would only be possible if he had Targaryen blood. Like that one engagement summed up everything that Jon is – the Bastard of Winterfell and the secret son of Rhaegar Targaryen, fighting to defend his home and being the Shield that Guards the Realms of Men… using his Targaryen ancestry to ride a dragon into battle. Then Drogon swooping in like a fucking eagle grabbing a snake, oh lawd.

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    5. Best Battle: King’s Landing. It was just awesome to watch and Emilia’s facial expressions were pure gold.

      Best fight: Jorah and Daenerys. It seriously broke my heart 💔😭

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    6. I liked The Bells overall better but I gave it to the Long Night. Simply because it was a 80 min battle that had me on the edge of my seat.

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    7. Jenny,

      I thought exactly the same initially. But I rewatched the season since then. I changed my mind due some pretty weird stuff going on realistically (if you could call it that considering they fight zombies Lol) and logistically in The Long Night. It’s just not better than the Bells in my opinion. But yes, I should call The Bells “the massacre” not really a battle.

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    8. TormundsWoman,

      I mean in reality Blackwater, Watchers on The Wall, Battle of The Bastards, and The Long Night are the only real battles. The rest are either a massacre or some type of ambush that catches one side off guard.

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    9. Battle: The bells.
      Best fight: I will go with Arya. It’s the fight that I can before me without watching the clip. And the way Maissie does it is just amazing.

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    10. Battle: The Long Night
      I was on the edge of my seat with my teeth clenched through the whole show. Loved it! The darkness added to the intensity as the battle raged around each character.

      Best fight: Arya on the battlements
      Maisie is just as fabulous with the physicality of her character as she is with more emotional scenes. She’s a very talented young woman.

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    11. kevin1989:
      Battle: The bells.
      Best fight: I will go with Arya. It’s the fight that I can before me without watching the clip. And the way Maisie does it is just amazing.

      Me too! 🗡👸🏻
      The Battle of KL + Arya vs. wights.

      (Too bad only Davos saw her in action. I really wanted Jon to be amazed, witnessing his baby sister as a lethal fighting machine – especially after she downplayed her abilities in their Episode 1 reunion.)

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    12. They were all brilliant. 803 was the biggest battle in cinema history, while 805 was the most shocking and earned battle in cinema history. I also loved the Battle of Dragonstone in 804. Dany was too cocky and didn’t worry about Euron and that was part of the downfall. The visuals were spectacular and it told a story of it’s own and contributed to Dany turning mad. Brilliant stuff from Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. I’ll always be grateful.

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    13. Pigeon:
      That is a kick-ass thumbnail of Arya for that video. ❤

      (1) I know! I want that image as a screen saver.

      (2) Good video clip. Too bad it ends with Arya crashing off a roof (?) in front of Beric and Sandor…

      Sandor: “…You can’t beat death.”
      Beric: “Tell her that.”

      …. without the ensuing frames of Sandor springing into action once he sees his wolf girl in peril.

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    14. Observation re: Best fight preliminary round totals.

      Although Arya vs. wights came in a close third, I predict she will prevail in the final round once the voters for “Arya appears out of nowhere to stab NK” (7th place) select Arya vs. wights in this final round. Because ASNAWP.

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    15. This one wasn’t tough, lol.

      The Bells. The PoVs from the streets really worked, Dany’s moments on the dragon beautiful, Jon heaving, Arya struggling, Unsullied-Lannisters confrontation, it was almost perfection. It was real and gutting.

      And Jon-Dany vs NK. In spite of the darkness it was so realistic and my heart took a leave. Which one is that? Jon? Dany? Watch it, he’ll eat you!!!! [or I’ll be eaten, lol]. The moment of the dragons suspending before Rhaegal took a dive, the moon behind them, magnificent. Perhaps the only picture from GoT I’d like to have on my wall.

      The reason why I didn’t vote for the battle of WF: I can’t forgive the strategic mistakes! I know it’s poetic licence, but still… also the final frustration, Jon yelling at the dragon, Brienne, Jamie and Pod with their backs against the wall, didn’t feel real, they felt senseless. Poetic license just doesn’t cut it here for the lack of imagination and the intent of the makers to just disappoint the fans for reasons. Sorry D&D, sorry Sapo. [it’d be better if Brienne-Jamie-Pod died and Jon fought a bunch of whites].

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    16. Best fight: Cleganebowl (GET HYPE) and Jorah heckin’ Mormont’s last stand are tied. Lyanna versus the giant is third and would be in a tie in my head if it wasn’t for a very silly nitpick (her killing the giant and her being crushed being more or less virtually simultaneous is my answer to it)

      Best Battle: Battle of Winterfell (narrowly)

      Euron and his no-scope with Weserosi railguns through a mountain is still silly albeit redeemable if the weather wasn’t crystal clear; King’s Landing wins handily on the “oh good lord” shock value of the civilian massacre but Golden Company being generally useless dings it down enough points to miss out.

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    17. Efi:
      This one wasn’t tough, lol.

      The Bells. The PoVs from the streets really worked, Dany’s moments on the dragon beautiful, Jon heaving, Arya struggling, Unsullied-Lannisters confrontation, it was almost perfection. It was real and gutting.

      And Jon-Dany vs NK. In spite of the darkness it was so realistic and my heart took a leave. Which one is that? Jon? Dany? Watch it, he’ll eat you!!!! [or I’ll be eaten, lol]. The moment of the dragons suspending before Rhaegal took a dive, the moon behind them, magnificent. Perhaps the only picture from GoT I’d like to have on my wall.

      The reason why I didn’t vote for the battle of WF: I can’t forgive the strategic mistakes! I know it’s poetic licence, but still… also the final frustration, Jon yelling at the dragon, Brienne, Jamie and Pod with their backs against the wall, didn’t feel real, they felt senseless. Poetic license just doesn’t cut it here for the lack of imagination and the intent of the makers to just disappoint the fans for reasons. Sorry D&D, sorry Sapo. [it’d be better if Brienne-Jamie-Pod died and Jon fought a bunch of whites].

      Jon was yelling at Viserion to distract him for Arya.

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    18. -Battle of King’s Landing
      -The Clegane brothers fight to the death

      I completely agree that the Battle of King’s Landing can hardly be considered a battle after the titular bells ring, but I found that entire sequence to be so much more impressively portrayed than the Long Night that it ended up getting my vote despite that.

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    19. Marbery Typhoon:
      Best fight: Cleganebowl (GET HYPE) and Jorah heckin’ Mormont’s last stand are tied. Lyanna versus the giant is third and would be in a tie in my head if it wasn’t for a very silly nitpick (her killing the giant and her being crushed being more or less virtually simultaneous is my answer to it)

      Best Battle: Battle of Winterfell (narrowly)

      Euron and his no-scope with Weserosi railguns through a mountain is still silly albeit redeemable if the weather wasn’t crystal clear; King’s Landing wins handily on the “oh good lord” shock value of the civilian massacre but Golden Company being generally useless dings it down enough points to miss out.

      That’s the beauty and the brilliance of the Golden Company though. They were red herrings all along.

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    20. Jack Bauer 24: Jon was yelling at Viserion to distract him for Arya.

      I think these theories were debunked by Maisie Williams and Tim Kimmel (GoT’s supervising sound editor):

      [Maisie] Williams also weighed in on the theory that Jon Snow encouraged Arya to kill the Night King by distracting the ice dragon. Where does Williams land on that theory?

      Williams: She did that on her own. If we’re going to give credit to anyone, it’s Melisandre. She knew what she had to do to put the mission in Arya’s head. This is the first time Arya has fought and had something to lose in so long. If we’re going to put it to anyone for getting Arya’s head back on track, it was Melisandre and the ‘brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes’ [prophecy].

      Kimmel:

      To my knowledge, [Jon] is not aware that Arya is heading over there. He is really just trying to protect himself, and he realizes he’s caught in a bind. He’s screaming to try to psych himself up to take this dragon out somehow.

      I thought Jon was yelling out of fury and frustration because the battle seems to be lost and there’s nothing he can do at this point, cornered by an undead dragon.

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    21. This one was easy for me – best battle long night. Despite being so dark you could not see, it had the same moves that Castle Black did, filming different fights happening in a round. It held my attention the entire time. Rejected Bells because it wasn’t a battle it was a slaughter. Rejected Dany fighting Euron because there was too much question about it all.

      Best fight: arya and the wights, her acting and the choreagraphy. that happened to make it really just perfect. The others were good but no where near this one

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    22. Best Battle: The Battle for Winterfell

      This one was brutally tough. I’ve already expressed my ardent love for “The Bells” in the Best Episode category, and I thought that the entire sequence of Daenerys unleashing Drogon upon King’s Landing was masterfully done – heartrending, thrillingly tense, and in many respects, the true climax of the entire series. But the Battle for Winterfell was every bit as extraordinary, and the sheer complexity of its production can’t be overstated. The fact that they pulled it off was truly a miracle, and it gave us so many marvelous setpieces with the larger battle (Melisandre lighting the trench, Beric’s sacrifice, Jon and Daenerys dueling the Night King on dragonback and of course, Arya slaying the Night King – a Top 3 moment of the entire series for me).

      In the end, I gave it to the Battle for Winterfell by the narrow of margins primarily on degree of difficulty, and because many of the things I love about the Bells (“All right then. Let it be fear”, Tyrion’s farewell with Jaime, Jaime and Cersei dying in each other’s arms, etc.) aren’t directly part of the battle itself. But they’re both magnificent. You can’t go wrong either way.

      Best Fight: The Clegane brothers fight to the death

      Here’s a place where I can vote for “The Bells”! As someone who, prior to Season 8, was never swept up in all the Clegane Bowl hype, this fight surpassed my wildest expectations. From the apocalyptic setting on the burning staircase to nowhere to the sheer vicious brutality of the brothers tearing at each other with swords, knives and fists to the inevitable fiery end, I was riveted the entire time, and found it to be a tremendously satisfying and fitting conclusion for the arc of one of my favorite characters in the show. It may be my favorite one-on-one fight in the entire series. Strong second place to Jon and Dany fighting the Night King on dragonback, which was also unspeakably epic.

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    23. Battle: Battle of Winterfell. I voted for Bells as best episode, in part because it had so much more than a battle: Varys’ betrayal and death, Tyrion betraying Dany and saving Jamie, Jaime/Euron/Cersei, “Sandor…thank you”,Cleganebowl, Arya in Dany’s Inferno, genocide, madness, and a mystical steed. But the Battle of Winterfell, OTOH, was an all-out land battle, complete with siege, charge, wall defense, room-by-room fighting, and aerial defense with 3-way dogfight. It was spectacular, intimate, mystical, fated, and ended with a one-woman ambush (ASNAWP). And then came the Dawn.

      I’m torn on Best Fight, so didn’t vote. Yet.

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    24. Efi:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Eh, no, he wasn’t. If he were, it’d be infinitely better. But it was refuted by one of the actors if I’m not mistaken (MW? there was a specific question somewhere).

      Yeah, I think you’re right, Efi 🙂

      [Maisie] Williams also weighed in on the theory that Jon Snow encouraged Arya to kill the Night King by distracting the ice dragon. Where does Williams land on that theory?

      Williams: She did that on her own. If we’re going to give credit to anyone, it’s Melisandre. She knew what she had to do to put the mission in Arya’s head. This is the first time Arya has fought and had something to lose in so long. If we’re going to put it to anyone for getting Arya’s head back on track, it was Melisandre and the ‘brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes’ [prophecy].

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    25. Jack Bauer 24,

      Also, instead of yelling this much, they could have Jon slay the freaking dragon and run to the godswood only to realize that it was all over because of his baby sister. Then he’d have my leave to collapse right in front of Bran.
      There’s so many ways this could have gone, but it played out like this on purpose, just for frustrating Jon’s fans –which they even stated. And it is mean and unforgivable.

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    26. Fairly sure the Long Night will win the first poll and suspect Clegane Bowl will get the second one but I prefer the Arya action scenes myself.

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    27. Jack Bauer 24,

      Yep. Like all of my awesome fan theories,
      they got shot down by the straightforward depressing answer that he was just yelling at the dragon out of frustration and that’s the end of it. It would be cool though if Jon found a dust portal like in His Dark Materials and stepped into a world where he could be more involved this time. A world where he wasn’t stuck flying the whole time. But in
      D&D’s world he just yelled and that’s all there was to it.

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    28. Efi:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      but it played out like this on purpose, just for frustrating Jon’s fans –which they even stated. And it is mean and unforgivable.

      Yeah, that’s BS; they never said anything of the kind. So you’re saying they didn’t have Jon slay the dragon on purpose to make him look like a useless buffoon, just like how they didn’t have him kill the NK, all just to cruelly troll Jon Snow fans?

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    29. Tron79,

      Remember that moment in “Battle of the Bastards”, when Jon draws his sword and faces off against the Bolton cavalry charge? He knows he doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell, but he still wants to go down swinging anyway. Him and the dragon was a similar moment. He knows he has no chance of slaying this dragon or even getting past it, but he still decides not to die like a coward hiding behind a rock.

      “It’s the most heroic thing we can do now – look the truth in the face.”

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    30. Farimer123:
      Tron79,

      Remember that moment in “Battle of the Bastards”, when Jon draws his sword and faces off against the Bolton cavalry charge? He knows he doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell, but he still wants to go down swinging anyway. Him and the dragon was a similar moment. He knows he has no chance of slaying this dragon or even getting past it, but he still decides not to die like a coward hiding behind a rock.

      “It’s the most heroic thing we can do now – look the truth in the face.”

      Yes I can agree with that. He resigns himself that his time is up but he’s going to go out swinging. The sequence with him facing the cavalry was really amazing. The speed of the battle and the “luck” factor in survival was masterfully done.

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    31. This was really hard, but I went with the Long Night and Cleganebowl, though Arya fighting at Winterfell was a very close second.

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    32. Efi,

      That would have completely gone against the tone they were going for at the end of the episode, which was utter hopelessness. Besides, Jon killing Viserion wouldn’t have changed the outcome of the battle and would simply have been put in to give Jon fans a fist pump moment. In other words, it would have been fan service. Nothing more.

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    33. Tron79,

      Jon did plenty during the battle. He fought the Night King on dragonback and knocked him to the ground, which was integral to his defeat. He also had that amazing scene where he charged at the Night King, and also fought in Winterfell’s courtyard. That’s not even mentioning how he was the one who united the entire army against the army of the dead in the first place.

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    34. Efi:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Also, instead of yelling this much, they could have Jon slay the freaking dragon and run to the godswood only to realize that it was all over because of his baby sister. Then he’d have my leave to collapse right in front of Bran.
      There’s so many ways this could have gone, but it played out like this on purpose, just for frustrating Jon’s fans –which they even stated. And it is mean and unforgivable.

      I don’t think D&D had Arya kill the NK just to frustrate Jon’s fans. I recall they said that Jon “wasn’t the right person” to do it, which to me, translates to “it was too obvious for Jon to do it, so we wanted someone else to do it for more of a gotcha moment”.

      Honestly, I think he was the exact right person to do it, but D&D almost certainly wanted it to be more of a surprise, so they went with Arya. I think Arya killing the NK made sense too, even if D&D only came up with this decision a few years ago and not from the beginning.

      The only real issue I had with Arya in the last season was that Arya could’ve just snuck into KL with her FM skills, used someone’s face, and killed Cersei without the need for an actual invasion of KL, similar to what she did with the Freys. Which is what she was planning to do right up until Sandor convinced her not to after Dany already torched KL. Oh well.

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    35. Young Dragon:
      Tron79,

      Jon did plenty during the battle. He fought the Night King on dragonback and knocked him to the ground, which was integral to his defeat. He also had that amazing scene where he charged at the Night King, and also fought in Winterfell’s courtyard. That’s not even mentioning how he was the one who united the entire army against the army of the dead in the first place.

      I agree that he did have a major influence. It was just decided to put him on the sidelines blocked by icy Viserion so Arya could make the surprise jump. I enjoyed Arya’s wolf jump. My reaction at the time was vocal. I was yelling at the TV to Jon to get off the dragon (while he was flying). I just felt while viewing like Jon was held back because I know how great Jon is at ground battles. Once he did get on the ground it was much better. You are correct that he had a good scene with the NK and his sequence going through the gate and avoiding all the wights was excellent. I’m guessing that D&D thought it would ruin the surprise if Jon would have kept Viserion busy while he waived Arya through. I get it. I guess I was just really emotional at the time with my own yelling at Jon to GET OFF THE DRAGON! And get on the ground already.

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    36. Tron79,

      Arya Stark = “The Hero of Winterfell”
      Jon Snow = Frustrated Bystander. *

      #ASNAWP 🗡👸🏻

      * Oh, I forgot: He was “exactly where [he was] supposed to be.”

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    37. Farimer123,

      Yes; that’s exactly what I’m saying. That, and also their lack of imagination to do sth with him and still have Arya kill the NK. It’s the mean little smile in the end, hahaha, gotsha!
      You know who got the fans’ credits for the battle of WF? Dany; yes, Dany. It was her story from the beginning.
      And I, a gallactically idiot, didn’t see it coming. (to quote one of my favorite lines).

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    38. Farimer123,

      It’s not out of senseless bravery he did that; he was in the middle of the field, he could only go forward or back. Back would have been a bad choice, because it’s the most predictable, and he’d have the same number of arrows coming to him. Forward is his chance to get below the arrows range (because the first arrows would aim at where he was standing and further away-the predictability of the thing) and thereby have more chances to survive the first loose of the arrows.

      [Btw, the scene is from the books and doesn’t belong to him, but to that kingsguard, Arianne’s lover; it’s described exactly like this, only poor guy dies]

      Anyway, that moment he draws his sword is iconic. It’s worth watching the entire GoT just for this scene (and the suspending dragons).

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    39. Young Dragon,

      A little fanservice wouldn’t have been bad. Also the sheer symbolism of Jon slaying a dragon is fantastic -dragons symbolizing Targaryens and Jon choosing his Stark identity at the end (or no identity, whatever, I’m confused).
      It would have given Jon sth to do on the ground. The desperation was the effect of the montage and Ramin’s beautiful music. They’d have the same effect without Jon pointlessly yelling at the dragon GO AWAY! GO AWAY, I TELL YOU! Also the montage would be the same.
      How about a scene of Jon getting ready to slay the dragon (like coming from the side), and the dragon turning, ready to roast him? it would have the same effect. They could do a lot with that scene, they just didn’t want to.

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    40. Mr Derp,

      “I don’t think D&D had Arya kill the NK just to frustrate Jon’s fans. I recall they said that Jon “wasn’t the right person” to do it, which to me, translates to “it was too obvious for Jon to do it, so we wanted someone else to do it for more of a gotcha moment”. ”

      To complete your comment (and their missing words) “so we decided to block his way, hence the yelling to an undead dragon”.

      The gotcha moment is not related to Jon. They could do it either way; they could do everything. And I’m one of those who actually liked Arya slaying the NK.

      So they said it, but in a more polite way. Because what is that if not a sheer effort to deceive and disappoint Jon’s fans?
      This is why this scene makes me so angry when I think about it. It’s not just that they denied Jon a real role and arc in season 8, they even denied him what he always did, fighting. Of course they meant it to be frustrating, but it could have been frustrating with him in an actual fight -with the dragon, the whites or others.

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    41. Tron79:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Yep. Like all of my awesome fan theories,
      they got shot down by the straightforward depressing answer that he was just yelling at the dragon out of frustration and that’s the end of it.It would be cool though if Jon found a dust portal like in His Dark Materials and stepped into a world where he could be more involved this time.A world where he wasn’t stuck flying the whole time.But in
      D&D’s world he just yelled and that’s all there was to it.

      Yeah, I was always kinda annoyed when I learned that Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt didn’t actually kill a single Nazi. But OK, they were political leaders. I could squint real hard and forgive them. But when I realized that Dwight Eisenhower wasn’t the first man on Omaha beach dodging machine gun bullets together with his troops — that was when I quit reading about history in disgust.

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    42. Mr Fixit,

      I don’t have a horse in this race, and perhaps I’m misreading you, but I’m not sure this is an apt comparison. It sounded like the OP was simply frustrated that Jon didn’t get to do more.

      Firstly, FDR and Churchill weren’t in the military, so there’s no reason to think they would kill anyone in the first place.

      Secondly, Eisenhower was basically the commanding general of the European Theater of Operations, so it’s a bit silly to think he’d be in the initial charge at D-Day.

      Jon Snow has always been on the frontlines.

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    43. Efi,

      Jon tells us in season 6 he’s tired of fighting. That’s all he’s ever done since he left Winterfell initially. His arc this season was to end the threat of fire which he was successful at. I enjoyed his season 7 and 8 arc. He help bring together many different groups of people that no one else would have been able to do to defeat the threat of ice. But sometimes characters arcs In tv and movies aren’t for everyone.

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    44. Stew,

      Jon did say he was tired of fighting in season 6, but then he went on to fight in season 6, so it’s not like he stopped fighting.

      Personally, I think Jon had two different arcs that occasionally merged together. I thought his arc from seasons 4-7 was to bring everyone together to help fight the AOTD, but I think his arc from seasons 1-3, and then picked up again in season 8, was more about his identity.

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    45. Mr Derp,

      I’ve always felt throughout all the seasons that Jon struggled with his identity. My quote about fighting is Jon fought because he had to not because he enjoyed it. That’s why in the bells they had the scene were the Lannister soldiers are getting ambushed and he pauses and to me if looked like he was thinking what the f I’m I doing here.

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    46. Stew,

      Yea, he always seemed to hate fighting, but only did so out of duty. Unfortunately, by the time Jon figured out that his queen went from hero to Hitler, it was too late. The damage had already been done.

      Probably would’ve been a wise move for Arya to put on a face and kill Dany at that point, but I guess she was like “Jon, I already killed the NK, you can have this one. Though, you’ll probably be imprisoned for it whereas I could almost certainly get away with it.”

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    47. Mr Derp:
      Farimer123,

      Just so you can conjure up something to argue with me about.

      XDXDXD This made me chuckle.

      Young Dragon,

      But the thing is that it wasn’t hopeless, the moment Mel said blue eyes I and my partner both knew that Arya was going to kill the NK or that the NK was going to kill her. The moment at the end I already knew they wouldn’t lose. (even so because it meant that the whole cast except cersei and Bronn would live so they had to win).It was more, when is Arya going to make her move.
      I still loved the episode and those moments. The montages were beautiful, and the end of the NK was very well done.

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    48. Definitely Clegane brothers for best fight, one of the few things I liked from the season. I’ll take the Battle for King’s Landing as best battle, despite Dany’s ridiculous berserker rage, everything else was cool.

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    49. If Jon killed the Night King people online would complain that D&D turned GoT into cliche fantasy and they would have used some GRRM’s quote to prove that they betrayed the spirit of ASOIAF.

      Aragorn didn’t kill Sauron. Why would Jon need to kill Night King? It was interesting to be surprised with Arya twist. That still made a lot of sense. It’s not like Sansa killed him. Or Tyrion.

      It’s interesting how people expected Azor Ahai prophesy to be true in the most obvious way.

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    50. kevin1989,

      You have to accept that you and your partner are smarter than 80% of the audience. For a lot of people that twist at the end of S6 meant that Jon was born from incest between Ned and Lyanna. That’s how clueless majority of people were.

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    51. mau,

      The Aragorn didn’t kill the Sauron is not really a valid argument. In movie 1 it was Frodo who was set on the task to destroy the ring, and it was Frodo was brought the ring towards mount doom. The twist was that not Frodo but in the end it was Gollum who destroyed the ring and thereby Sauron. But the thing is with Gollum was that it was already foreshadowed in the first movie when Gandalf talked about Gollum that he has a part to play in this war. Did Arya got also enough forshadowing for destroying the NK. For myself the answer is yes, her journey was all about death. The NK is death. Her skills made sense to being used against the NK. And she got the dagger from Bran. For me that’s enough. I personally liked that Arya killed the NK in the show, and that Jon was the “Bringing together guy” and Daenerys was the “That had a dragon that could weaken the NK army enough to make sure they could win”, and that Bran lead the NK to a secure place and even lured him with the raven he send. And that Sansa made sure WF was ready with provisions for the army and all the logistics. It was team work. The only thing that I didn’t like was that the Sansa scene was cut where she used the dagger to save Gilly’s baby and Missandei. But who knows, maybe the dvd/bluray version got that extended scene.

      And Tyrion and Sansa killing the NK, I can see that all before me, Tyrion starts to tell his honeycomb into the brother joke, NK wants to know how the jokes end, he listens and while he is distracted Sansa stabs him with the dagger.

      mau,

      Still it didn’t bother me even when I saw it coming, sometimes having something lay out is better, surprises can only work so well until it gets overdone.

      The only thing bothering with TLN for me was that it was too long action after each other. Luckily Arya’s scene in the library was inbetween to give it a bit breathing room but I found it too long in the end. Which there was a break around the 50/60 mark when Daenerys Dracarys failed, that would have been an amazing cliffhanger the moment NK and his boys enters WF. And have the Arya Mel scene as a episode opener.

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    52. kevin1989,

      Yes, Melisandre’s conversation with Arya strongly indicated what was going to happen. I knew then that Arya would play a vital role in ending the White Walkers. However, once the music started playing, with Sansa and Tyrion hiding from the wights in the crypt, with Jaime and Brienne fighting for their lives, with Sam in a perilous situation, with Jon pinned down by Viserion, with Winterfell completely overrun, with Theon dead, with Jorah dead, with the Night King slowly approaching Bran, somehow the show made me forget what I knew. I forgot all about Arya, my favorite character. I forgot that this was a television show and that there was no way they were going to kill off all of their characters halfway through the season. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time, and judging from all the reaction videos of Arya killing the Night King, I wasn’t the only one who felt this way. That is a true example of masterclass music composition, directing, and storytelling.

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    53. Efi,

      A little fan service is not a bad thing, so long as they don’t overdo it. There were things I also wanted to happen in the final season, like Arya meeting one of the dragons or Theon killing Euron, but I don’t take points off because D&D didn’t give me what I wanted.

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    54. Mr Derp,

      My choices also, WF covers all the fights I didn’t choose, as CB was a separate fight from Long Night.
      So I got to say almost all of them in 2 clicks.

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    55. mau,

      Even though Jon vs. the Night King was the obvious thing that everyone expected (thank the Gods they didn’t do it!), the truth is that it’s not something that was promised/foreshadowed from the beginning of the series.
      The Night King doesn’t even exist until Hardhome, in Season 5 (yes, I know he appears in S4, but it’s such a brief appearance that in no way sets him up as the Big Bad Guy). He and Jon stare at each other in two episodes, Hardome and Beyond the Wall. And Jon’s doesn’t even care about the WW threat until S5.

      Now, it’s true that Jon is set up as the Big Hero from the beginning (although cleverly hidden thanks to Ned, Rob and a few others), but except for the prologue, the Big Villain that it’s set up from the beginning is Dany (although very cleverly hidden once again).
      Jon killing Dany in the end is narratively fulfilling, as well as tragic. That’s the equivalent of Frodo destroying the Ring, Anakin destroying the Emperor, Harry destroying Voldemort and so forth.
      The fact that they decieved us into thinking that the big climax would be Jon vs. The Night King is just good narrative, in my opinion. Same as when they made us think that Ned Stark was the big hero. You subvert the obvious expectations, and it’s only afterwards when peopel say “oh, I get it now!”.

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    56. Young Dragon,

      The music is indeed amazing. I just watched 4×07 yesterday (My plan is finishing season 4 today). And when Sansa enters WF, the goosebumbs I got with hearing the music and the snow.

      oierem,

      Agree with the NK part. The episode 4×04 ending doesn’t mean that the NK would have been the leader or the big other etc. Only in 5×08 it was clear he is the big baddie.

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    57. oierem,

      That’s why those comments how we were waiting since E1 for Jon to kill the Night King are ridiculous. I would even say that we didn’t wait for WW either. They were mostly irrelevant to the story until Hardhome. And even after that they weren’t the only reason we cared about the show. In S6 emotional core of the season wasn’t in WW story. And even in S7 I think we can all agree that in the first half of the season we cared more about Dany vs Cersei war.

      The point is, WW were one of the elements of the story. And as Benioff said in Inside the Episode, one of the climaxes. But not the only one.

      I blame marketing of the show for unrealistic expectations from WW. I’m watching the show now with the people who are watching it for the first time(we are at the end od S5) and they are not watching this show just to see WW.

      Without interviews and promo campaigns, with just the show, you can really feel how not that relevant WW were.

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    58. mau,

      It’s not that the WW weren’t important; they certainly were. After all, they were a nigh-insurmountable destructive force that acted as an existential threat to all life. It was a threat so big it’s mere prescense made everything else in look like children playing in a sandbox. The Long Night in GoT is like the Battle of the Black Gate in the LotR NOVELS (not the movies), where the big evil dark lord is finally brought down, and then the final three episodes are like the Scouring of the Shire, but far more important for the plot overall.

      Towards the beginning of S7E5, a big shift in the season’s narrative direction occurred. Why? Because word got out from Winterfell that the WW was making a move against the Wall. While they were in play during the last two seasons, even the heads of clashing armies were able to get together because “uh hey I know we’re mortal enemies and all, but if we don’t band together and fight these things, we’re all gonna get wiped out”.

      The real problem is that people expected the WW to make it all the way to the finale, and for that finale to climax with something straight out of Harry Potter – with “the chosen one” Jon Snow facing off 1v1 against the “evil dark lord” Night King in a showdown of ultimate destiny…. and fuck every other character because all along Jon Snow has been the only character who really mattered, because “muh Azor Ahai book prophecy”, right?

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    59. Farimer123,

      I agree that it was problem that prople expected WW to be final enemies. But that was problem HBO created with their marketing strategy. Do you remember that S8’s teaser with everyone dead in WF.

      “It is the only war that matters”. I understand that was line that was never really meant to be true. That was naive thing Jon believed in. That they can all live together when they save the world. But it was something that was used in promo campaigns. It created wrong exceptions.

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    60. Farimer123,

      Azor Ahai isn’t just a book theory, it was mentioned throughout the show, as recently as Season 7. You can’t blame people for thinking that it would have some relevance in the final Season. Add in all of the marketing for the show, ‘the only war that matters’ and you have the perfect recipe for this misconception.

      I don’t think people have this expectation for the books, simply because the NK doesn’t exist, we know very little about the WW, so this is a show thing. People do absolutely believe that Jon and Dany will be integral to the defeat of the WW, and that one or both of them are AA, but a one on one battle with a guy with a pointy head? No.

      My personal expectation was that the NK would defeat them at Winterfell and they would go south and have to deal with Cersei and the NK at the same time. This would have proven Cersei wrong, because she would have had to fight with the living. As it turned out, she was right to sit that battle out. I actually thought the show’s way of doing things was very neat and tidy. At the least I thought that the NK would live until Episode 4, I was surprised that the throne and the NK were given equal weight.

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    61. Farimer123,

      The thing is, there is no ending to AA prophecy in the books; there is no ending to almost any of the prophecies actually. We don’t know what these people with magical swords did, the last heroes etc. We just know what the prophecies tell us, which is… nothing really.
      But the people who haven’t read the books can’t know that. In the show perhaps it would have been nice if we got a scene explaining these things (not for offering a solution, because there is none), but for putting the issue to rest, i.e. Bran, Sam and Davos discussing about AA, sort of “comparing notes” thing.

      But considering how many scenes were actually missing from s8, why would one care about this one in particular?

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    62. Efi,

      This one is hard for me to say out loud, but it’s so illustrative of GRRM’s belief in prophesies… It’s a reoccurring theme throughout the books. My guess is that as much as we love to theorize about the prophesies, they will not make us happy in the end…If anything they will piss us off even more… Here’s an excerpt from the books that says it all….

      “Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy.” Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. “Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.” He chewed a bit. “Still . . .” AFFC Samwell V

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    63. I doubt we will get concrete answers to the AA prophecy, but I think there will be evidence for multiple people, so we will be left debating it. I’m not sure that there will be a ‘killing blow’ in the books, so it won’t be clear cut.

      The most literal prophecy is probably Maggy the Frog, but Cersei has a whole self fulfilling prophecy thing going on. Her fear of that prophecy will bring about her own destruction. Her hatred of Tyrion stems from this, and that has caused a whole heap of problems. Having it be someone she least suspects would be *chefs kiss* but it would be fun if it actually was Tyrion.

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    64. Efi,

      We do get information on AA and legends dealing with AA in the books. As to the ending of AA, when Jon reads the passage Maester Aemon marked for him in the Jade Compendium:

      “I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.

      Melisandre uses The Prince That Was Promised and Azor Ahai interchangeably. The Prince That Was Promised prophecy tells that a hero will come again to save the world from darkness. Melisandre currently believes TPTWP/AA is Stannis. Maester Aemon first believed TPTWP had been referring to Rhaegar, but later believed it was Daenerys. Rhaegar had believed he himself was TPTWP but then believed it was one of his children and became obsessed with the prophecy.

      The show does mention The Prince That Was Promised quite a bit and it seemed pretty set up, I think that’s why people care. As Jenny mentioned, it had been mentioned as recently as season 7. First Melisandre believes it is Stannis, then Jon, and then in season 7, Melisandre meets Dany and tells her about that prophecy, that she has a role to play and so does another:

      Melisandre: The Long Night is coming. Only the prince who was promised can bring the dawn.

      Daenerys: The prince who was promised will bring the dawn. I’m afraid I’m not a prince.

      Missandei: Your Grace, forgive me, but your translation is not quite accurate. That noun has no gender in High Valyrian, so the proper translation for that prophecy would be the prince or princess who was promised will bring the dawn.

      Tyrion: Doesn’t really roll off the tongue, does it?

      Daenerys: No, but I like it better. And you believe this prophecy refers to me?

      Melisandre: Prophecies are dangerous things. I believe you have a role to play, as does another. The King in the North, Jon Snow.

      Tyrion: Jon Snow? Ned Stark’s bastard?

      Daenerys: You know him?

      Tyrion: I traveled with him to the Wall when he joined the Night’s Watch.

      Varys: And why do you think the Lord of Light singled out this Jon Snow aside from the visions you’ve seen in the flames, that is?

      Melisandre: As Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch he allowed the Wildlings south of the Wall to protect them from great danger. As King in the North he has united those Wildlings with the northern houses so together they may face their common enemy.

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    65. Tron79: You’re getting through season 4 quickly!

      Free time last 2 days. Tomorrow I need to work again, so then I can’t watch that much. And season 4 is my favorite. It’s just a perfect season. (except that Cersei Jaime that look like a rape scene.)

      I will watch episode 9 today, but I think I will wait with 10 till tomorrow.

      Tron79,

      And don’t forget Tyrion: “Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.”

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    66. Tron79,

      Perhaps it comes with some consequences? Not just for the one/ones who fulfill AA but maybe there’s something else to deal with after as a result of the fulfillment of the prophecy. But that’s tinfoily. Maybe, as Jenny says, there won’t be a killing blow and it may not be clear-cut.

      At the same time, the quote who that comes from — Marwyn — is a tricky, tricky figure. I agree that magic is dangerous and unpredictable, yet Marwyn himself is also mysterious and seems to be unpredictable. He is disliked by and unpopular with the other maesters, he is the only one who liked Qyburn’s thinking, he studied dark magic, he taught Mirri Maz Duur, and he says some odd things about Maester Aemon (suggesting that the Citadel forced Aemon to the Wall rather than it being Aemon’s own choice, even though Aemon himself and the official World of Ice and Fire app say it was Aemon’s choice so he wouldn’t be used as a pawn against his brother) and advises Sam to not trust Aemon or himself. There’s a lot of mystery about Marwyn, I think.

      As to AA/TPTWP, I think there are indications there is something to these — for example, Melisandre unwittingly sees “Snow” (capitalized) in her fires when she asks for a glimpse of AA:

      Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

      For anyone who’s interested in a basic overview of AA/TPTWP, I like this video from AltShiftX covering TPTWP/Azor Ahai and explaining possible candidates:

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    67. Adrianacandle,

      This is the scene I’m talking about. The prophecy was very much in play, and at this point they probably knew where they were going with it. Now I wonder, were they merely foreshadowing Arya’s NK kill? The emphasis on gender in this scene is interesting. Maybe they were saying nothing, I don’t know. The point is, that it wasn’t just whiny book fans expecting some sort of answer, the show developed this plot line for years.

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    68. 100% of the time in the show, the one who was talking about prophecies and the “Prince (or Princess) Who Was Promised” was Melisandre… who was so sure that Stannis was the one that she burned a little girl alive. It didn’t end well for Stannis did it?

      “The prince or princess who was promised will bring the dawn”? What the hell does that even mean? Why did so many people assume that meant just killing that icy horned fucker, then the sun would come out, peace would reign eternal, and everyone would get lemonade? That “bring the dawn” could have a thousand different meanings. A falsis principiis proficisci.

      What about all the other prophecies that turned out to be nothing but horseshit in the end, like Jenny of Oldstones and the Prophet Lodos? What made people think that this “Azor Ahai” (which btw is never uttered in the show even once) prophecy had any more weight than those aforementioned ones?

      https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Prophecies_of_the_Known_World

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    69. Farimer123,

      The Battle for the Dawn was the first battle against the Others, and the Long Night during the age of heroes (which the prequel was supposed to cover). So bringing the Dawn means defeating the others, or so people think. The show gave a face to the Others by introducing the NK, so bringing the dawn means killing the NK.

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    70. Adrianacandle,

      I don’t understand what the point is.
      Melisandre is just a PoV among others. What she says and believes is not necessarily the truth, much more so because it is established in ADWD that her interpretations were wrong.
      But have you noticed that in the abstract that you quoted that the “beast” is described in terms similar to those of the melting of people from fire? Especially the “eyes melting” part, I think I’ve seen it elsewhere.
      And this:

      “When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”

      When I read it for the first time after season 7, it reminded me of Viseryon falling from the sky, hit by the NKs ice lance; his blood was on fire. It was a nice touch that D&D used images from the book to the show.
      I think the prophecy here describes a dragon and its effect.

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    71. Tron79,

      Martin means to implement the prophecies with one or more twists, so it won’t be clear who is who in the end. I guess if the saga is ever ended, it would be a nice thesis for a literature student.
      LOL.

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    72. Jenny,

      Right, I feel TPTWP was definitely a thing in the show and had been since season 2 but it didn’t seem to come to much, like quite a few of the prophecies and more magical elements in the show. Which I suppose makes sense in a way since the show toned down the more mystical elements of the books.

      As for Arya, I believe the showrunners decided in 2015/16 that Arya would kill the NK but I don’t know if it was meant to be a fulfillment of AA since Arya doesn’t meet the qualifiers as mentioned by Melisandre (born amongst salt and smoke, for instance, which is mentioned by the show)?

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    73. If I recall, the prophesies are mentioned much more in earlier seasons. I have no idea where it’s going in the books because I do not read them, but it never really went anywhere in the show. It just kind of faded away into nothing towards the end after being mentioned a number of times previously.

      I assume it was all just supposed to show that these prophecies are red herrings, but it would’ve been nice for the show to close the loophole. I think GRRM has stated previously that he prefers when prophecies are fulfilled by unexpected means.

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    74. Efi,

      I don’t understand what the point is.
      Melisandre is just a PoV among others. What she says and believes is not necessarily the truth, much more so because it is established in ADWD that her interpretations were wrong.

      Sorry if I’m misunderstanding. Do you mean the point of my response? I meant to reply to your statement, “there is no ending to almost any of the prophecies actually. We don’t know what these people with magical swords did, the last heroes etc. We just know what the prophecies tell us, which is… nothing really,” when I recalled there had been some of this info.

      As to Melisandre, yeah, Melisandre isn’t always accurate in her interpretations but what she sees is genuine, it appears. It’s her interpretations of what she sees that sometimes seem off but she’s not always wrong (“daggers in the dark”). She’s also not the character who believes in AA/TPTWP and her chapters are not the only ones that provide info. For instance, we learn about Nissa Nissa in one of Davos’s chapters. Maester Aemon believes in AA/TWTWP, so did Rhaegar, Benerro of Volantis believes it is Dany, etc.

      I mainly included the Melisandre quote in my response to Tron79 because what she saw was so unexpected so I think there is something to these prophecies.

      I think the prophecy here describes a dragon and its effect.

      Sure, the beast could be anything, maybe it is an undead dragon. This same passage also mentions a burning sword made with the blood of Nissa Nissa. Perhaps the beast is something else, something we’ve yet to see from beyond the Wall as there is still such little info on the Others and what they’re about, what they do.

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    75. Farimer123,

      Well in the books it has a meaning. I think the show tried to keep up with the prophecies, the magical and imaginary theological context that Martin has built, but in the end abandonded every effort to explore them in a meaningful way for somehow binding them to the main story. While there were traces of it in season 7 (7.3 as Jenny and Adriana noted), in season 8 none of it was understood.

      AA was an adherent of Rh’llor. Rh’llor is the god of fire, of light and eternal summer, so to speak. Melisandre and all the followers of Rh’llor are afraid of the dark and the night -“the night is dark and full of terrors”- she stays up all night looking at the fires (unless Stannis warms her bed), never sleeps and waits for the dawn to come, meaning, light.

      The Great Other of whom we may never speak is Rh’llor’s opponent. This one brings cold, winter, darkness (and the monsters hidden there in, i.e. “giant spiders), death, and, as per ep 8.2, oblivion.

      The problem is, we don’t know much about the Great Other, because the Great Other is mute in the books as it is in the show.
      But it is clear that for the Great Other to get the hell out of here, Dawn must come.

      If we take 8.2 seriously, I guess one could say that while Rh’llor somehow represents human history and the Great Other the eradication and complete obliteration of human accomplishments.
      But it’s not that simple, because while the destruction that the Great Other brings is rather clear and one could say, “oh, well, Rh’llor it is then”, Rh’llor is also destructive, as eternal summer cannot be a good thing, neither “fire” is always a good thing; fire does have the power to destroy as well.

      This bipolar cannot be understood without the one in the middle, which I think is found in the Old Gods. It is there that season 8 could have done better and show the connection of the three, and connect it to Bran.
      It’s not that they didn’t try, it’s just that it was vague and incomprehensible in the end, and in combination with Bran’s naming as king it becomes a total blur for the greater part of the audience.
      But Bran is of the Old Gods, and in this context he appears to be where he should be, in position for the healing to begin after the clash of Ice and Fire.

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    76. Adrianacandle,

      Do you think that that quote from the Jade Compedium relates the ending of AA as a hero?
      I don’t think so, but I wonder why was it Jon who had to read this very abstract which describes “the beast” in such horrible terms. Since everything Martin puts in the text has some meaning, I wonder if it’s a foreshadow of something or sth that Jon should know, apart from the flaming sword that is…
      Imo Melisandre confounds the two prophecies. We don’t actually know if AA was a Prince, it is she who makes that connection. The prophecies are so messed up in the books that I doubt we’ll ever get clear answers.

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    77. I think you could actually argue that Jon is Azor Ahai simply because he stabbed his lover in the heart to save the world, which is what that particular prophesy supposedly fulfills.

      It was assumed his destiny was to destroy the WW and the NK, but it turned out his destiny was to actually kill Dany to save the world from the woman he loved.

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    78. So finish episode 9. A little break with reading comments and then back to watch season 4 final.

      Efi,
      The thing I want to know is, why did Azor Ahai who come from Yi-Ti (Which has their own tale on Azor Ahai defeating the Long Night) come to Westeros to defeat the Others.

      Efi,

      At least not till Martin release his books. And who says that Azor Ahai is a good guy. As Cersei states in season 1, the truth is what you make of it. Maybe Azor Ahai was a huge dick who was arrogant, maybe he never defeated the long night.

      And the thing I want to know is how did the tower in oldtown made, it’s older than any structure in Westeros, and it stood there even when the first men came to Westeros. And it has the black-oil on the rocks (Like they had in Yi-Ti.

      Mr Derp,

      All because he didn’t want to “Stab” Dany earlier that day.

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    79. Efi,

      Do you think that that quote from the Jade Compedium relates the ending of AA as a hero?
      I don’t think so, but I wonder why was it Jon who had to read this very abstract which describes “the beast” in such horrible terms. Since everything Martin puts in the text has some meaning, I wonder if it’s a foreshadow of something or sth that Jon should know, apart from the flaming sword that is…

      My interpretation based on this passage alone is that the passage reads that AA is a hero who has defeated a monstrous beast. Other references to Azor Ahai describe him as a hero to fight the darkness and will bring about a summer that doesn’t end — which doesn’t sound too bad since summer is associated with fairly positive things in the book: innocence, youth, harvest, bounty — the opposite to the harshness and brutality of winter. But there could be a twist, perhaps an unforeseen consequence, or something that will have to happen to make sure this lasts.

      Maester Aemon had marked that passage for Jon to read for some reason. He seemed to believe it was important Jon know this. GRRM’s editors, Garcia and Antonsson, believe it will have something to do with the conclusion to Jon’s story, that the Others won’t be defeated in a single battle and they will still linger on as a threat on the edge of the world and Jon will be required to keep them forced back.

      Imo Melisandre confounds the two prophecies. We don’t actually know if AA was a Prince, it is she who makes that connection. The prophecies are so messed up in the books that I doubt we’ll ever get clear answers.

      At the same time, we don’t know if these two aren’t the same thing either. As in the real world, the same legendary figure can be given names by different religions/cultures. I don’t think the prophecies are messed up, but mysterious. There are still two installments to go, and we’ll see how it plays out.

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    80. I think GRRM also said we shouldn’t read too much into prophecies and they can be wrong/misinterpreted.

      I also think you have it right that Jon stabbing Dany in the heart is tied to the Azor Ahai prophecy. I suspect the show didn’t want to revisit this point but the books will make it clearer. The reality was Dany was almost as big a threat as the White Walkers were, they were both slaughtering thousands.

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    81. Serious question: since it was never explicitly revealed in the show who TPWWP was (assuming that there was one at all), how do we know it wasn’t Beric Dondarrion, that ultimate classical paladin of the light? What information has the show given us to suggest otherwise?

      After all, Beric was resurrected six times, not really by Thoros, but by the Lord of Light himself. Thoros said it clearly: “It’s the Lord of Light who brings you back. I’m just the lucky drunk who says the words.” And he has a flaming sword that he can ignite magically at will. Sounds pretty close to the initial description Melisandre gave in 2×1. As for “bringing the dawn” (which presumably means defeating the WW), his actions proved absolutely critical in the Long Night, when he saved Arya from certain death. His ultimate purpose came about not from slaying an archenemy, but rather by selflessly giving his life to save a comrade who previously despised him.

      And when Melisandre brought back Jon that one single time, what did Davos tell her beforehand? “I’m not asking the Lord of Light for help. I’m asking the woman who showed me that miracles exist.” And she performed the sacred rites perfectly, complete with ceremonial washing, undressing, and the cutting of hair. And even then it took quite a while for Jon to actually come back. In other words, it was really Melisandre herself who brought Jon back. The Lord of Light was just the apathetic diety who gave an okaying nod. Perhaps the Lord of Light only needed Jon alive to muster a force and challenge Ramsay outside the gates of Winterfell so that the Knights of the Vale could catch him off-guard, so the Starks could retake control of the North. After all, Arya would have never bothered to return if Winterfell had remained under Bolton control. “Maybe you’re only needed for this small part of his plan and nothing else.” Jon could have easily died in that mosh pit or been stuck by a random arrow.

      I make my case: Jon was never TPWWP. Nor was Dany, or Arya, or anyone else. It was actually Beric Dondarrion. He’s not even really a favorite character of mine by any stretch, but the evidence all points in that direction.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Farimer123,

      …”I make my case: Jon was never TPWWP. Nor was Dany, or Arya, or anyone else. It was actually Beric Dondarrion. He’s not even really a favorite character of mine by any stretch, but the evidence all points in that direction.”

      As much as I wanted to shoehorn Sandor* or Arya into this role, if we go by Show! Melisandre’s “Warrior of Light” prophecy from S2e1, it is Beric Dondarrion who’s the show equivalent of the book! Azor Ahai.

      * Mel: “He is the Lord’s Chosen. Born amidst salt and smoke.”
      Renly: “Is he a ham?”
      Hot Pie: “Face like a half-burned ham.”
      Pod: “Sandor Clegane. The Hound.”
      Hot Pie: “That’s the one.”

      QED

        Quote  Reply

    83. S2e1, Melisandre

      “After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas, and the dead shall rise in the North.

      In the ancient books, it is written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer.

      Stannis Baratheon, Warrior of Light, your sword awaits you. Lord, cast your light upon us! For the night is dark and full of terrors.”

        Quote  Reply

    84. Ten Bears,

      Stannis: **Pulls weakly burning sword from the fire** “For the night is dark and full of terror!”

      Davos: **Stays behind afterward and casually extinguishes the fire like a glorified janitor**

      Hehe, kinda diminishes the whole appearance of a “magical” prophesied flaming sword, don’t it?

        Quote  Reply

    85. Farimer123,

      Yeah, it does, doesn’t it? 😎

      The only “burning sword” in the show was Beric’s. And if we factor in his 6x resurrections and use of that flaming sword to help fulfill his “purpose” of protecting the retconned ASNAWPTWP (Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised), then who else could remotely satisfy Mel’s S2e1 prophecy other than the Lord of Light Kool Aid Drinker aka Lightning Lord Beric Dondarrion?

      (Not that I didn’t replay and freeze frame numerous scenes to “prove” to myself that Sandor checked off all the boxes of Mel’s prophecy.)

        Quote  Reply

    86. Ten Bears,

      e.g., arguably when Ray found him, Sandor was clinically dead before he came back to life; at around that same time Arya arrived at the port where sailors were shoveling piles of SALT in the background; and tendrils of SMOKE were rising from buildings on the shoreline as she sailed off.
      Yes, I know. A real stretch. 🤔

        Quote  Reply

    87. Ten Bears: e.g., arguably when Ray found him, Sandor was clinically dead before he came back to life

      This reminds of me of that famous Princess Bride scene… 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    88. kevin1989,

      There’s a chance that AA was not Westerosi and the first long night didn’t happen in Westeros I think. Or I have no idea.

      About the tower, I did read sth long ago. They say it’s connected to Bran the Builder, but it’s not that simple; apparently there’s a chance that he brought this technical knowledge from somewhere else? Sth like that.
      (Adriana who has a good memory can surely fill in)

      It’s a pity that the other show got cancelled. We’d have some answers to these questions.
      Now we’ll have to wait for Martin’s complementary material on Westeros, and we all know how that goes, lol.

        Quote  Reply

    89. I finish season 4. I really love this season. Perfect from beginning to end with only one scene I disliked (not hated), and that was the Jaime Cersei scene. This is one scene where they should have ignored the books.

      But for now I go with S4 > S1 > S3 > S2

      With a little break of a couple of days. Then I will rewatch season 5 and probably season 6.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Efi,

      kevin1989,

      Efi: About the tower, I did read sth long ago. They say it’s connected to Bran the Builder, but it’s not that simple; apparently there’s a chance that he brought this technical knowledge from somewhere else? Sth like that.
      (Adriana who has a good memory can surely fill in)

      Is this what you’re remembering, from the World of Ice and Fire book?

      When first glimpsed in the pages of history, the Hightowers are already kings, ruling Oldtown from Battle Isle. The first “high tower,” the chroniclers tell us, was made of wood and rose some fifty feet above the ancient fortress that was its foundation. Neither it, nor the taller timber towers that followed in the centuries to come, were meant to be a dwelling; they were purely beacon towers, built to light a path for trading ships up the fog-shrouded waters of Whispering Sound. The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults, and chambers of the strange stone below. It was only with the building of the fifth tower, the first to be made entirely of stone, that the Hightower became a seat worthy of a great house. That tower, we are told, rose two hundred feet above the harbor. Some say it was designed by Brandon the Builder, whilst others name his son, another Brandon; the king who demanded it, and paid for it, is remembered as Uthor of the High Tower.

      I believe the first Long Night was world-wide — in the above video, Alt Shift X says the following and that all of these legends said to have saved the world from the Long Night v.1 may be one figure:

      We know the Long Night happened in Westeros, but it also affected the Rhoyne, and the Further East, so it was probably worldwide. Melisandre says the Long Night is coming again, bringing an apocalyptic “night that never ends”. It’s starting to look like she might be right.

      Melisandre says the only hope is a hero named Azor Ahai. People all over the world of ice and fire have stories of the hero who ended the last Long Night. The Northerners say the “last hero” joined with the children of the forest and won the Battle for the Dawn against the Others. Descendants of the Rhoynar say a hero convinced their gods to bring back the day with a secret song. The YiTish say a woman with a monkey’s tail restored the sun. The Asshai’i name this hero Azor Ahai, and prophesy their rebirth to save the world once more. The names Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser are also used. There’s also “the prince that was promised”.

      Some people think the “prince that was promised” and Azor Ahai are separate figures, but there’s no good reason to think this. Melisandre, Aemon Targaryen, and George R. R. Martin himself all talk as though Azor Ahai and the “prince that was promised” are the same thing, and no one in A Song of Ice and Fire has ever distinguished between the two. So “the prince that was promised” and Azor Ahai reborn appear to be the same person. The “stallion who mounts the world” may also be connected. He too is described as a “prince”, and is promised in prophecy.

      Given the blurry overlap and similarity of these legends, it seems likely that they’re all about the same person, the hero who saved the world from the Long Night, and is prophesied to return, to save the world once more.

      He provides sources for the above statements in the video itself if you’re interested 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    91. kevin1989:
      I finish season 4. I really love this season. Perfect from beginning to end with only one scene I disliked (not hated), and that was the Jaime Cersei scene. This is one scene where they should have ignored the books.

      But for now I go with S4 > S1 > S3 > S2

      With a little break of a couple of days. Then I will rewatch season 5 and probably season 6.

      Season 4 is brilliant. It is the all time greatest season of televison in cinema history.

      S4 > S2 > S1 > S3

        Quote  Reply

    92. Jack Bauer 24,

      I’m not really a huge fan of S3. Sure it’s got plenty of great moments, but I felt a lot of the storylines dragging, like not a lot was happening. It’s like this weird transitional period between the exciting anything-goes expansion of S2 and the self-assured mini-climax of S4.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Farimer123:
      Ten Bears,

      And despite the Hound’s lifelong fear of fire, the fire did speak to him in 7×1, almost like some kind of divine irony.

      Hmm…

      Yup! Not only that, but Sandor got crystal clear reception, unlike devout Red Priestess Melisandre who apparently couldn’t see through the static on her view screen.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Adrianacandle: This reminds of me of that famous Princess Bride scene… 🙂

      … or this famous scene (of many) from Monty Python and the Holy Grail
      (“I’m not dead yet”
      “Yes you are.”)

        Quote  Reply

    95. Adrianacandle,

      There never was a first “long night.” It was propaganda, embellished through the millennia.

      That’s my mega tinfoil theory and I’m sticking to it unless and until the Big Kahuna proves me wrong.

        Quote  Reply

    96. This was a tough pair of votes! Euron’s guided-missile attack was obscenely impressive — in all of the saga, could there possibly have been a character less worthy of downing such a magnificent beast as Rhaegal than the cackling clown prince of pirates? — and Qyburn must’ve endowed the scorpion bolts with some nastily vile magic indeed, for them to fly as they did. But (thanks again to Euron) the battle lacked majesty.

      Not so with “The Long Night” and “The Bells”! In each case, the entire story preceding the battle had built up to it, and it did not disappoint. The Bells had the shock value of being the third and final plot twist, right at the end, about which GRRM had briefed B&W. It also — and this, to me at least, explains why such vitriol was poured upon the show afterwards — stuck a finger right into the face of the audience, sneering, Oh, so you spent years rooting for The Dragon Queen to ride triumphant into King’s Landing, did you? Look now, and behold your wish granted! (In addition, it had, as noted above, the humor of watching the vaunted Golden Company get blown straight through the Seven Hells with neither hope, appeal, nor even a chance to see it coming. Later, losers!)

      The Long Night had it all, though: swooping and fighting dragons, epic struggle of sword and fire on land and air, a well-planned and well-executed defense of a great fortress against overwhelming odds. And then all hope is lost, because the fiendish Night’s King had planned everything out perfectly in advance. He — quite literally! — had overlooked No One. (And thence came his downfall!)

      The deciding factor in both votes was the show confounding our expectations, yet again. This time, we were all dreading a wholesale slaughter of our favorite characters, only to find just one major character losing someone — and it was Dany losing Jorah, after fighting side by side with him. This proved to be one more in a long series of hammer-blows against her psyche, further isolating her from the other characters, helping to precipitate her crack-up and ultimate demise.

      It was a tough call, but I think those were the right choices. (Not by much!)

        Quote  Reply

    97. Ten Bears,

      “He says he’s not dead…”
      “I’m not!”
      “He isn’t?”
      “Well, he will be soon. He’s very ill.”
      “I’m getting better!”
      “No, you’re not, you’ll be stone dead in a moment.”

      XD

      That’s my mega tinfoil theory and I’m sticking to it unless and until the Big Kahuna proves me wrong.

      Does the Big Kahuna talking about the now-not-to-be-prequel for which he preferred the title The Long Night maybe possibly count…? 🙂

      Obviously the White Walkers are here — or as they’re called in my books, The Others — and that will be an aspect of it,” Martin says. “There are things like direwolves and mammoths.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Ten Bears,

      Perhaps but I think something must have happened for the Children of the Forest, the giants, and the First Men with Bran the Builder to have worked together to build the Wall. So little is still known about the Others in the books, GRRM reported the Others are not dead but strange, beautiful, “think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

      Thousands of years prior, the Children of the Forest and the First Men did war for quite a while, with nobody winning, until they decided to form a pact, upon which the First Men started to worship the Old Gods — the same gods the Children of the Forest worshipped. This peace lasted for thousands of years until the Battle for the Dawn came later and this is the first time the Others are mentioned.

      The in-universe skeptic Maester Yandel (fictional author of The World of Ice and Fire, written by GRRM in collaboration with Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson), who isn’t so certain that the Others existed (while GRRM says they would have been in the dropped Long Night prequel), mentions something must have happened. He writes:

      While this last may well be no more than fancy, the fact that some cataclysm took place many thousands of years ago seems certain. Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

      It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R’hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey’s tail.

      These tales go worldwide and report basically the same thing: a cold darkness.

      And he also mentions:

      Though the black brothers of the Watch still guard the realms of men as nobly as they may, the threats they face no longer come from Others, wights, giants, greenseers, wargs, skinchangers, and other monsters from children’s tales and legend, but rather, barbaric wildlings armed with stone axes and clubs; savages to be sure, but only men, and no match for disciplined warriors.

      It was not always so. Whether the legends are true or not, it is plain that the First Men and the children of the forest (and even the giants, if we take the word of the singers) feared something enough that it drove them to begin raising the Wall.

      I think something was up.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Sorry Jack I love S4 but I cannot agree with your statement after season 6 aired:-D Winds of Winter is hands down the greatest episode of GOT/TV drama ever to air. Eight of the other nine episodes are exceptional too with only “no one” dipping below to a solid “good”.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Jack Bauer 24,

      Agree here with you. Season 4 is brilliant, perfect from beginning to end, what they did brilliant here is not dragging storylines. If they are not important don’t show them. Everything was perfect.

      Farimer123,

      I love season 3 but I hated the Theon torture scenes, I have skip those this time.
      But I loved every character moment, I even gain appreciation for Sansa’s storyline and why they made it a whole season arc.

        Quote  Reply

    101. Ten Bears,

      I think the White walkers are the result of the first long night, not the other way around. In Essos there is talk about a second moon who poor into the earth, some even state it as that the dragons came from that. Fire breathing creatures. How does a moon who explodes come and go through the atmosphere look? Like flying dragons (the fire). That resulted into that half planetos was in dust (like we had on our real word with the impact of the meteorite that extinguishing the dinosaurs.). It resulted in a night that took decades/centuries. That’s why it covered many places in Essos and in Westeros. The temperatures lowered, in the heart of Winter something emerged (extreme cold? Some magical artifact something else?) that resulted into the making of the WWs. The stories tell that the long night came people froze to death into their castles, they smuttered their babies, but only after that the WW came for the first time.

      After work I post more about this if you want.

      Edit: Before I forgot, the moon exploded because of the same event that made the shadow lands.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Jack Bauer 24: Season 4 is brilliant. It is the all time greatest season of televison in cinema history.

      S4 > S2 > S1 > S3

      I’m with you on S4. S4e7 is my all-time favorite episode, and the last 9 1/2 minutes of S4e1 = my all time favorite scene (Little Lady wants a pony? ▶️ Little Lady gets a pony… + Needle back.)

        Quote  Reply

    103. Ten Bears,

      “Little Lady wants a pony…”
      **Fast forward to the end of 8×5**

      Ten Bears,

      “The tales of the Long Night can’t be pure fabrication. Too many similarities from unconnected sources.” -Archmaester Ebrose, 7×1

      I’m inclined to agree with him on that point.

        Quote  Reply

    104. i agree i think season 4 and also 6 are the two best seasons. My overall rankings after rewatch would be 4=6>3>1>8>2>5>7.

      Jack Bauer 24: Season 4 is brilliant. It is the all time greatest season of televison in cinema history.

      S4 > S2 > S1 > S3

        Quote  Reply

    105. Ten Bears,

      Same with me with 4×07. Samsa at the Eyrie is amazing, that moment ze walks in the courtyard and she sees it’s snowing and she makes that snowcastle. And the Stark theme is hearing over it. You could really feel how Sansa felt in that moment.

      And Oberyn giving his talk to Tyrion and naming himself his champion.
      Oberyn and Varys talk about what Oberyn did in Essos.

        Quote  Reply

    106. kevin1989,

      …and in addition to Tyrion & Oberyn (“I will be your champion” still gives me the tingles), S4e7 has the Bronn & Tyrion jail cell scene, and best of all, Sandor & Arya (“The pain was bad; the smell was worse; but the worst thing is that it was my brother who did it”).

      I can think of no episode with more “high thread count” character moments.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Farimer123,

      ”Little Lady wants a pony…”
      **Fast forward to the end of 8×5**

      Yes indeed. Arya riding off on a white horse is a recurring motif: S4e1; S4e10; S7e2 (I think); and S8e5.

      👸🏻🦄

      I think I’m going to go rewatch the end of S4e10, “The Children.” THAT was a perfect conclusion to a perfect season finale. (S6e10 is up there too.)

        Quote  Reply

    108. Ten Bears:
      Farimer123,

      ”Little Lady wants a pony…”
      **Fast forward to the end of 8×5**

      Yes indeed. Arya riding off on a white horse is a recurring motif: S4e1; S4e10;S7e2 (I think); and S8e5.

      I think I’m going to go rewatch the end of S4e10, “The Children.” THAT was a perfect conclusion to a perfect season finale.(S6e10 is up there too.)

      Yes that was an awesome ending. I know you’re not into the theme music as much as me, but for me the decision to add the children’s choir to the theme music right when Arya looks out hopefully towards Braavos was the icing.

      There’s another horse that comes to mind with Jaime. I loved the ending of season 7 with Jaime now riding on BLACK horse as winter arrives in KL. That was another yelling at the screen moment for me when Jaime finally decides to leave Cersei and ride North to honor his word. Unfortunately, he reverts back to his old self at the end of season 8. That was depressing, but I loved the season finale of 7 when he rode off on the black horse.

      With Arya, it kind of runs in the family. Lyanna was known as an excellent rider!
      In the books Arya has at least one scene when she is riding a horse fast. I don’t remember what color it was though… I’ll have to look back…

        Quote  Reply

    109. Ten Bears:
      Farimer123,

      ”Little Lady wants a pony…”
      **Fast forward to the end of 8×5**

      Yes indeed. Arya riding off on a white horse is a recurring motif: S4e1; S4e10;S7e2 (I think); and S8e5.

      👸🏻🦄

      I think I’m going to go rewatch the end of S4e10, “The Children.” THAT was a perfect conclusion to a perfect season finale.(S6e10 is up there too.)

      “Mockingbird”, “The Mountain vs The Viper”, “Watchers on the Wall” and “The Children” are my favorite string of consecutive episodes of the entire series and the Castle Black battle is my favorite battle episode of the series. So yeah, I reallly love Season 4. It was also the first season that I started watching live every Sunday night since I started watching GoT after Season 3 finished. I kept hearing about this “red wedding” all over social media, so I binged Seasons 1-3 over a few days and then got involved in the communities waiting for Season 4. I also got to attend the IMAX Experience and watch 409/410 on the big screen and see the sneak peek Season 5 teaser trailer. Amazing experience. So yeah, nothing will ever top Season 4 for me ❤

        Quote  Reply

    110. Stew:
      i agree i think season 4 and also 6 are the two best seasons.My overall rankings after rewatch would be 4=6>3>1>8>2>5>7.

      It’s hard for me to rank them because I love them all, and it will change over time I’m sure with more rewatches. I really love Season 2 and I seem to be in the minority. I see it on the bottom of a lot of peoples rankings. I just love the expansion of the world and the introduction of new characters like Stannis, Melisandre, Brienne, Margaery, etc. Even though Season 3 is at the bottom of my rankings, I still love it. I like to try and remember my first viewing of the seasons and also the anticipation of watching that seasons finale and cliffhanger/going into the new season. Season 4 was my first season of live viewing, so the Season 5 anticipation was killer. Then with Season 5 and Jon Snow’s death, the Season 6 anticipation was at an all time high and the off season was brutal. All people would ask in interviews was if Jon was really dead. That might have been the peak off season. Then the wait for Season 7 was longer and Season 8 even longer then that. Season 7 had the killer cliffhanger with the wall coming down and we knew all hell was going to break lose with the AotD invasion and the final season coming next. Those were the days and while the waits were long and arduous, they were some really fun times indeed 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    111. Jack Bauer 24,

      I like season 2 as well. Well, the second half of it much more so than the first half. I don’t particularly care for the first half of the season.

      Once it gets to episode 5, I think season 2 is…brilliant. Just brilliant!

      I recall the scene where Renly was killed by the Shadow Baby got a lot of flack because it looked really fake. I think it looked pretty fake too, but I still thought the overall episode was…brilliant and it didn’t take away my enjoyment of the episode at all.

      The second half of season 2 has so many great moments:

      Arya/Tywin
      Jon/Ygritte
      Brienne/Jaime
      Tyrion/Lancel
      Theon’s downfall
      Blackwater
      House of the Undying
      The way the season ends with the first glimpse of the AOTD.

      Just brilliant

        Quote  Reply

    112. Jack Bauer 24,

      ”…So yeah, I reallly love Season 4. It was also the first season that I started watching live every Sunday night since I started watching GoT after Season 3 finished…”

      Me too! I binge-watched Seasons 1-3 during a pre-Season 4 HBO GoT marathon.

      So I think S4e1 was the first episode I watched “live” – and by that time I was a die-hard Arya fanboy. I was delighted when that last 9+ minute segment of “Two Swords” came on.

      Little did I know that for me, GoT would ultimately = A Song of Arya and Sandor. (Without those two characters and those two actors, GoT wouldn’t be the same. Without disparaging any of the other stars of the show, other actors could’ve been slotted into their roles without an appreciable difference in quality. Rory M and Maisie W though were irreplaceable.)

        Quote  Reply

    113. The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, the Jenny song scene was an all time great scene, so intimate, a culmination of character developments, love and fear all rolled into one inevitable ball of impending doom and humanity and beauty… O, this show…. ….We shall never see it’s like again…

        Quote  Reply

    114. Jack Bauer 24,

      I agree I love all the seasons. I’ve been asked multiple times by coworkers to rank them so I have had that already on the brain. No show has captured my attention like this show has. I’ve rewatched every season now at least 5 times each. I watch Robb and Jon’s crownings at work to get hyped for a presentation. In my opinion I got to watch the greatest tv spectacle in tv history.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Ten Bears,

      watching that wonderful scene still gives me goosebumps. Sometimes I wish I was just started to watch the series and come across these all fresh and new. But I realize i can watch them over and over and they will always move me as if it were the first time

        Quote  Reply

    116. kevin1989,

      All of this discussion about favorite scenes/arcs of the series made me think of one of my favorites that almost everyone else hated, and some scenes that I hated that many didn’t have a problem…

      Most underrated season arc…
      Sansa/Arya scenes during season 7.
      Arya takes on the role of the Waif to force Sansa to see the truth and come to terms with herself and what she’s done. A Faceless Man can be a mirror to help the other person see their true selves. Arya flipping the dagger over to Sansa was the key moment when Arya lets Sansa know she’s still on her side. This was tough love that worked. The season ends with the sisters finally coming to terms with their relationship. They respect each other and become true sisters of their pack when they have their scene on the battlements. I just love this arc, and most don’t.
      (I left out the LF execution. This was a masterful scene when the wolf pack surrounds LF. I loved the choreography)

      Most emotional plot hole…
      Arya’s stabbing. I love that she survived, but it made no sense. The Waif actually twisted the knife and she was bleeding for what seemed like hours. The explanation was that Lady Crane was a great surgeon. OMG. There were so many better explanations in the fandom. I loved the “Fight Night” theory. Even in fantasy there are certain rules of the world, and it felt that D&D went beyond the rules on that decision. Also, how convenient was it that they let Arya let her guard down.
      I would have loved it if when you put on a face of a different person, it heals your wounds. We know it changes your entire body so that would make some sense. That would have been a simple way to heal her. Lady Crane could have been a FM and helped Arya put on a mask. That would have healed her…. I could believe that one since your entire body changes when you put on the mask. I just couldn’t believe that Arya survived the stabbing or that she would have let her guard down so easily just to take in the view.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Tron79: Also, how convenient was it that they let Arya let her guard down.

      That was definitely a poor decision by either the writers, director, or whomever.

      The episode prior, Arya is shown being extra careful, grabbing needle for protection and going into hiding.

      The very next episode, she’s strolling around Braavos without a care in the world as if she has nothing to worry about.

      I know a lot of people think season 6 is the best season, and I personally think it’s one of the better seasons, but it was scenes like this that made me not like season 6 as much as others seemed to. This, the Sansa/Jon “why didn’t she tell him about the Vale” thing, and a few others made me more frustrated with the plot than I wished I was during that season.

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    118. Tron79,

      As for an underrated arc, I’m not sure if I can think of one right now, but one of the most underrated SCENES in the entire show for me is the scene when Tyrion tells Pod “there has never lived a more loyal squire” and “this is goodbye”.

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    119. Mr Derp: That was definitely a poor decision by either the writers, director, or whomever.

      The episode prior, Arya is shown being extra careful, grabbing needle for protection and going into hiding.

      The very next episode, she’s strolling around Braavos without a care in the world as if she has nothing to worry about.

      I know a lot of people think season 6 is the best season, and I personally think it’s one of the better seasons, but it was scenes like this that made me not like season 6 as much as others seemed to.This, the Sansa/Jon “why didn’t she tell him about the Vale” thing, and a few others made me more frustrated with the plot than I wished I was during that season.

      Yes, I remember fan theories thinking that the way she walked through town in that episode reminded them of the Waif or just someone else, because it was just so out of character for Arya.

      Yeah, the Sansa/Jon Vale thing was also a very tough one. Sansa did win as best strategist in the end being QOTN, but just to let thousands of Northmen and Wildlings get slaughtered before bringing in TKOTV was very tough to stomach. Just like Jon forgave Sansa in the season 8 finale, he was pretty easy on her back in season 6 as well. I remember a speech he gave her about trust, but this went way beyond trust. I did grow to appreciate Sansa much more later in season 7 after she came to terms with some of what she had done with the help of FM Arya. I thought she was great in season 8 with Theon and I didn’t blame her for not trusting Dany (even though they did really need Dany to fight off the AOTD, so some gratefulness on Sansa’s part may have calmed Dany’s feelings of isolation.)

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    120. Tron79,

      Sansa apologized for exiling Jon, but she never apologized for betraying him by breaking her oath and revealing Jon’s parentage to undermine Dany. I know it’ll be argued that she did what was right for the realm, but it contributed to the conflict that drove Dany mad and got Jon exiled in the first place.

      It also removed Jon from KITN, paving the way for Sansa to be QITN. In season 7, Arya accused Sansa of undermining Jon, so that she could rule the North, and that’s kind of what ended up happening.

      Sansa used information to create chaos and climb to power. Does that remind you of anyone else in the show?

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    121. Mr Derp:
      Tron79,

      As for an underrated arc, I’m not sure if I can think of one right now, but one of the most underrated SCENES in the entire show for me is the scene when Tyrion tells Pod “there has never lived a more loyal squire” and “this is goodbye”.

      Yes, I agree about this scene with Pod. I also thought that Peter Dinklage’s goodbye scene with Jaime in the tent in season 8 was underrated and not talked about much. That was actually one of my favorites of the series.

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    122. Mr Derp:
      Tron79,

      Sansa apologized for exiling Jon, but she never apologized for betraying him by breaking her oath and revealing Jon’s parentage to undermine Dany.I know it’ll be argued that she did what was right for the realm, but it contributed to the conflict that drove Dany mad and got Jon exiled in the first place.

      It also removed Jon from KITN, paving the way for Sansa to be QITN.In season 7, Arya accused Sansa of undermining Jon, so that she could rule the North, and that’s kind of what ended up happening.

      Sansa used information to create chaos and climb to power.Does that remind you of anyone else in the show?

      Yep, and she eliminated LF, so that eliminated his threat to her power as well.
      Sansa definitely won the game. Tyrion won as well being HOTK, but his game wasn’t as planned as Sansa’s. Tyrion just had to think fast in whatever situation he found himself and talk himself out of it. I didn’t see Tyrion’s as an overall strategy. Sansa on the other hand was always thinking of what comes next, which is why she had a problem with Dany.

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    123. Tron79: Yes, I agree about this scene with Pod. I also thought that Peter Dinklage’s goodbye scene with Jaime in the tent in season 8 was underrated and not talked about much.That was actually one of my favorites of the series.

      I liked that scene a lot too, except when Jaime said that he never really cared about the people of KL or the innocents. I assume it was meant as a joke, but I personally would’ve left that out. It kind of undermines why he killed the Mad King. I guess Jaime sort of forgot why he killed Aerys. Maybe Jaime killed the Mad King more so out of a sense of protecting his father rather than protecting half a million people?

      Brienne wrote in the White Book that Jaime went to “save the capital from destruction”, which is not really true at all. He went back because he couldn’t quit Cersei.

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    124. Mr Derp: I liked that scene a lot too, except when Jaime said that he never really cared about the people of KL or the innocents.I assume it was meant as a joke, but I personally would’ve left that out.It kind of undermines why he killed the Mad King.I guess Jaime sort of forgot why he killed Aerys.Maybe Jaime killed the Mad King more so out of a sense of protecting his father rather than protecting half a million people?

      Brienne wrote in the White Book that Jaime went to “save the capital from destruction”, which is not really true at all.He went back because he couldn’t quit Cersei.

      Yeah I see your point. He said he didn’t
      Care for the people that much anyway and that really does counter with not wanting the mad king to burn them all. But also the mad king made Jaime choose whether to kill his father or protect his king. I believe he talked about that dilemma in the bath house scene with Brienne. I still loved the white book scene. I’ll take a little positive spin. Even if his reasons weren’t exactly pure he did take the Castle without loss of life (as one example)

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    125. Mr Derp,

      Technically, Edmure had surrendered the castle before the Blackfish’s death, so one could say the castle was taken at that point without loss of life and that the Blackfish died afterwards.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Mr Derp: I liked that scene a lot too, except when Jaime said that he never really cared about the people of KL or the innocents.I assume it was meant as a joke, but I personally would’ve left that out.It kind of undermines why he killed the Mad King.I guess Jaime sort of forgot why he killed Aerys.Maybe Jaime killed the Mad King more so out of a sense of protecting his father rather than protecting half a million people?

      Brienne wrote in the White Book that Jaime went to “save the capital from destruction”, which is not really true at all.He went back because he couldn’t quit Cersei.

      The whole point was Jaime was continuously conflicted until the very end.

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    127. Tron79,

      ”….Most emotional plot hole…
      Arya’s stabbing. I love that she survived, but it made no sense. The Waif actually twisted the knife and she was bleeding for what seemed like hours. The explanation was that Lady Crane was a great surgeon. OMG. There were so many better explanations in the fandom. I loved the “Fight Night” theory. Even in fantasy there are certain rules of the world, and it felt that D&D went beyond the rules on that decision. Also, how convenient was it that they let Arya let her guard down.”

      Mylod’s fault. I’ll try to find his interview quotes.

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    128. For me S6 was the pinnacle and almost flawless television, the only blip was the Arya stabbing, for some reason it just fell short of their exceptional high standards.

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    129. Jon Snowed,

      I don’t know why so many people call the Arya stabbing senseless. It is definitely survivable. Just research a bit. There are so many factors involved, but of course people ignore it. Otherwise everything is always taken so serious on the show.

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    130. Mr Derp,

      “Sansa apologized for exiling Jon, but she never apologized for betraying him by breaking her oath and revealing Jon’s parentage to undermine Dany. I know it’ll be argued that she did what was right for the realm, but it contributed to the conflict that drove Dany mad and got Jon exiled in the first place.
      It also removed Jon from KITN, paving the way for Sansa to be QITN. In season 7, Arya accused Sansa of undermining Jon, so that she could rule the North, and that’s kind of what ended up happening.
      Sansa used information to create chaos and climb to power. Does that remind you of anyone else in the show?”

      A couple of points to this one, Mr Derp.
      I think that the mess of s8 story was accidental. It’s like they didn’t know what to do with the story they had, so they wrapped it up the way they decided where they wanted it to go, without thinking what it meant for the characters.

      But no one knows what did Sansa apologize to Jon for: spilling the beans? driving her grace of 1000 titles mad? the burning of Kings Landing? his exile? the butterflies of Naath? all of it?
      It was also not explained why was Sansa so dismissive of Daenerys in the first place.
      But Jon was exiled because of his own doing. He wasn’t exiled because Sansa betrayed his ID, but because he followed Dany South, participated in mass murder, and in the end killed her.
      So Sansa had nothing to do with his exile. On the contrary, she came down to KL and took charge of the Northern army and she specifically threatened GW with war for Jon.
      And she didn’t remove Jon from power. Jon removed himself by laying his title at Dany’s feet –oops, I meant bossom.
      I also need to remind you that Jon has no rights on the North, being a Targaryen. He was basically a man with no home after his identity was revealed. Since the Targaryens didn’t end up on top, he couldn’t even hold Dragonstone. Still, when they meet at the quay of KL, Sansa told him that the North lost “their king”. She still saw him as their king in spite of his stupidity. In spite of everything he’s done, she still supported him, like she did in 7.1. Jonny boy always needs a good boost and a good hug.
      Arya accused Sansa for not defending Jon, but Jon himself accused her for undermining him, forgetting that as lady of WF she has the right to speak her mind in front of her king. But Sansa kept his army together and she decided to take out LF specifically when LF suggested that Jon be “unnamed” and turned against her sister at the same time.

      Sansa created chaos for undermining Daenerys, not Jon. Jon himself was to blame for his punishment, not her. Sansa’s loyalty was with Jon all along and I think that’s consistent in seasons 7 and 8. It’s just that Daenerys wasn’t part of it.

      And, in the end, I don’t know how we can blame the characters for the creator’s inadequacy to invent a story different than her grace of 1000 titles “going mad”.
      It was their choice to tell this story; the problem is, it doesn’t stick with all it’s pieces (Jon exiled, Bran king, Tyrion Hand; Jamie not caring about the people; the only thing that felt right was Sansa as queen and perhaps Arya going west).

      Jon’s exile in the end felt completely wrong, no matter how we see it. You can blame Sansa; you can blame Jon; you can blame the 7 gods. It still makes no sense.

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    131. The Light King:
      Jon Snowed,

      I don’t know why so many people call the Arya stabbing senseless. It is definitely survivable. Just research a bit. There are so many factors involved, but of course peopleignore it. Otherwise everything is always taken so serious on the show.

      Agreed. I thought Mr. Benioff, Mr. Weiss and Mylod did a brilliant job with the Braavos story as a whole and the end of her arc there.

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    132. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”….Most emotional plot hole…
      Arya’s stabbing. I love that she survived, but it made no sense. The Waif actually twisted the knife and she was bleeding for what seemed like hours. The explanation was that Lady Crane was a great surgeon. OMG. There were so many better explanations in the fandom. I loved the “Fight Night” theory. Even in fantasy there are certain rules of the world, and it felt that D&D went beyond the rules on that decision. Also, how convenient was it that they let Arya let her guard down.”

      Mylod’s fault. I’ll try to find his interview quotes.

      Wow I don’t remember reading Mylod’s explanation but that would be great if you can find it. I’m sorry to disagree with Jack that this was brilliant. Don’t get me wrong. I was super relieved to see that Arya survived the next episode. It was the explanation that I couldn’t believe. I saw The Light King say here that it was survivable. Yes in our modern day with ER’s you might survive it. I was just hoping for a twist that would make it all make sense. I still really enjoyed season 6 but I had a very hard time with the stabbing and Arya’s putting her guard down like she did since it jolted me out of the world i thought I was watching. If you find the Mylod article that would be awesome since it still bugs me all these years later.

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    133. The Light King:
      Tron79,

      If it is just a flesh wound, it is enough if it is sewn and disinfected.

      “Just a flesh wound”???? I think we watched different episodes. Maybe in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, but the waif used a not insignificant knife to the innards, with a twist. That shit was deep, and the odds of it not hitting anything major or cutting her intestines would have been as unlikely as Arya walking around all devil-may-care to begin with.

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    134. Pigeon,

      You should watch the episode again. Arya didn’t just walk without any plan. She wanted to be found. It’s possible that organs have been injured, it is also possible that just no organs have been injured. We don’t know. It depends on the length of the knife, it depends on how sharp it is, it depends on where was stabbed. Arya also had clothes on.

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    135. Tron79,

      I’ll look for the Mylod quotes. I know I saved them somewhere because I was astounded he’d tweaked the scripts for the sake of cheap sensationalism. (Nothing personal against the guy; I just strongly disagreed with his directorial decisions. Also, I’m not a fan of his “blurry background” filming technique.)

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    136. The Light King:
      Pigeon,

      You should watch the episode again. Arya didn’t just walk without any plan. She wanted to be found. It’s possible that organs have been injured, it is also possible that just no organs have been injured. We don’t know. It depends on the length of the knife, it depends on how sharp it is, it depends on where was stabbed. Arya also had clothes on.

      Agreed. We don’t know all of the details and we are not doctors. I would never presume to know how significant the injury was. She was injured obviously, but I’ve seen people do incredible things after being stabbed. Benioff the Brillant and Weiss the Wise obviously saw Mylod’s direction and okayed it and that’s good enough for me.

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    137. Jack Bauer 24: Agreed. We don’t know all of the details and we are not doctors. I would never presume to know how significant the injury was. She was injured obviously, but I’ve seen people do incredible things after being stabbed.

      It was pretty apparent where she was stabbed and what the knife looked like. Sure, adrenaline could have worked for awhile to get her away. But I’m sure the pristine waters of the Braavos canals really helped with that potential for sepsis. Hey, whatever you want to consider “brilliant”, though. 🙂

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    138. Jack Bauer 24: Benioff the Brillant and Weiss the Wise obviously saw Mylod’s direction and okayed it and that’s good enough for me.

      This pretty much explains your attitude towards everything on the show.

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    139. Pigeon: This pretty much explains your attitude towards everything on the show.

      All I know is they gave me 73 episodes of never before seen/never will see again, heart warming, gut wrenching, breathtaking, edge of your seat television that had a dauntless scope and size. I will always be grateful and cherish this masterpiece forever. With all of the flack I’ve seen them get, I will be their beacon. Now and always.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Tron79,

      Here are excepts from an interview of director Mark Mylod about the two S6 episodes involving Arya in Braavos. (Emphases in bold face are mine.)

      ————-

      Q: The past two episodes have had a certain ambiguity with Arya’s storyline, both with her being stabbed by the Waif and her leading her to the final fight. Did you make that intentionally ambiguous? What were you trying to convey with those sequences?

      Mylod: “Yes. In terms of the ambiguity of tone in the chase, yes, that was very deliberate. My dearest wish, I suppose, the endgame there was for the audience to watch the chase for as long as possible thinking, “Oh my God, I’m watching Arya Stark’s death,” to be carried away on that emotional beat.

      ***

      In terms of ambiguity at the end of episode 7, in terms of “Why is Arya stabbed then? How does she allow herself to get stabbed?” — again, one of the wonderful things about Game of Thrones is that there is so much, because it’s so tonally complex and myriad that people can make a lot of their own choices. A lot of the time I’ll make choices in my own head that I don’t even wish to be pushed out into the world, and people can make their own choices. But for me I played it that the character let her guard down.
      I played it that she made a mistake, that having made that choice to get the heck out of Braavos and almost the relief, that the character has a moment of just relaxation
      — not quite relaxation, but at least a little kind of existential moment of, “Okay, you know what? This place is cool. I’m going to miss it. For all that’s gone on here, it’s a beautiful city. You know, there’s that great statue out on the harbor, it’s a beautiful place. I’m going to miss it,” and that little moment of revery, because, she’s a warrior, but she’s still a young woman, and she lets her guard down, and she almost pays with her life. That was my choice in that moment.

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    141. Pigeon,

      Yes, she was stabbed on the side. I’m not a doctor, but I’ve seen shows and movies where characters survived much worse. Hell, even in GOT, Davos survived a mini nuke, Jaime survived his hand getting chopped off, Tyrion survived his face being split in two, Theon survived castration, the Hound survived tumbling down a mountain, etc.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Young Dragon:
      Pigeon,

      Yes, she was stabbed on the side. I’m not a doctor, but I’ve seen shows and movies where characters survived much worse. Hell, even in GOT, Davos survived a mini nuke, Jaime survived his hand getting chopped off, Tyrion survived his face being split in two, Theon survived castration, the Hound survived tumbling down a mountain, etc.

      Yes, they did. It’s fiction, so their chances of survival are generally higher as well. No one on the show stepped on a nail and died of tetanus, that’d be pretty mundane and anticlimactic.

      In terms of suspension of belief when watching tv or movies, the Braavos scene was just one that pushed that over the top for me. From Arya letting her guard that far down out in the open, to her swimming some distance with a nasty bleeding wound, and then shortly after being patched up, jumping out the freaking second story window and going on a huge game of chase with a perfectly healthy trained person after her.

      But if some people find it a brilliant bit, orchestrated by masterminds, hey cool. I just personally happen to pick a lot of other parts of the show to be worthy of that kind of praise.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Jack Bauer 24: All I know is they gave me 73 episodes of never before seen/never will see again, heart warming, gut wrenching, breathtaking, edge of your seat television that had a dauntless scope and size. I will always be grateful and cherish this masterpiece forever. With all of the flack I’ve seen them get, I will be their beacon. Now and always.

      That’s nice. I have never found a show to be perfect in every regard, every episode. So I appreciate the great parts, and have no issue with criticism of bits I find problematic. I don’t care if other people like or dislike the same. As long as it doesn’t come down to personal attacks on cast/crew/actors playing fictional characters and scolding them in grocery stores, threatening their families or wishing them harm like a crazy person, it’s all part and parcel.

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    144. Pigeon,

      Jaime fell into a muddy puddle and had a farther way to travel to get help, so his was much more unbelievable to me. I had no problem with Arya surviving her stab wound, but like you, I did have a problem with her running around Braavos despite her injury. I think it would have worked if Arya was clutching her side in pain as she ran. I did like how it ended, though, with her cutting the candle.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Here are excepts from an interview of director Mark Mylod about the two S6 episodes involving Arya in Braavos. (Emphases in bold face are mine.)

      ————-

      Q: The past two episodes have had a certain ambiguity with Arya’s storyline, both with her being stabbed by the Waif and her leading her to the final fight. Did you make that intentionally ambiguous? What were you trying to convey with those sequences?

      Mylod: “Yes. In terms of the ambiguity of tone in the chase, yes, that was very deliberate. My dearest wish, I suppose, the endgame there was for the audience to watch the chase for as long as possible thinking, “Oh my God, I’m watching Arya Stark’s death,” to be carried away on that emotional beat.

      ***

      In terms of ambiguity at the end of episode 7, in terms of “Why is Arya stabbed then? How does she allow herself to get stabbed?” — again, one of the wonderful things about Game of Thrones is that there is so much, because it’s so tonally complex and myriad that people can make a lot of their own choices. A lot of the time I’ll make choices in my own head that I don’t even wish to be pushed out into the world, and people can make their own choices. But for me I played it that the character let her guard down.
      I played it that she made a mistake, that having made that choice to get the heck out of Braavos and almost the relief, that the character has a moment of just relaxation
      — not quite relaxation, but at least a little kind of existential moment of, “Okay, you know what? This place is cool. I’m going to miss it. For all that’s gone on here, it’s a beautiful city. You know, there’s that great statue out on the harbor, it’s a beautiful place. I’m going to miss it,” and that little moment of revery, because, she’s a warrior, but she’s still a young woman, and she lets her guard down, and she almost pays with her life. That was my choice in that moment.

      Thanks for finding those!! He’s blaming it on her youth and taking in the sites. She’s been through too much at this point to let her guard down. The whole sequence of her walking around town as Arya (not even in disguise) without a weapon was just bizarre. I remember there were a ton of fan theories at the time because people just couldn’t believe she would do that. I will give credit to Mylod for his Hound scenes in a Broken Man though. I had a major problem with his decisions for Arya. I also had a major problem with his decision not to let us have a payoff with somehow seeing the Waif fight. I won’t spoil it but they could have used a skill that Arya learns in the books so we could have seen some. Anyway I have to let this go. For me this sticks with me more than any problems i had with season 8.

      Btw. I just watched her first two Dr. Who episodes. She is really great in those. Even better than i remember when i watched them a couple years ago.

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    146. Young Dragon:
      Pigeon,

      Jaime fell into a muddy puddle and had a farther way to travel to get help, so his was much more unbelievable to me. I had no problem with Arya surviving her stab wound, but like you, I did have a problem with her running around Braavos despite her injury. I think it would have worked if Arya was clutching her side in pain as she ran. I did like how it ended, though, with her cutting the candle.

      I suppose they at least made Jaime faint into the arms of Brienne. He did look genuinely awful that whole time. Mind you, his armored self doesn’t sink in a lake like a tank, either, and he also managed to get crushed by a tower crumbling, but only ends up with a few bricks covering him. After also running around after being almost run through with a sword courtesy of Euron. 😂

      I also liked the “offscreen” fight between Arya and the Waif. It doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion, but I thought it was a fantastic use of her training as a blind girl, which was ironically done mostly with the Waif. I’m not sure if people just wanted to hear grappling in the dark or what, but as soon as she went lights-out, I may have “whoo-hoo!”d out loud. 🤪

        Quote  Reply

    147. Pigeon: I suppose they at least made Jaime faint into the arms of Brienne. He did look genuinely awful that whole time. Mind you, his armored self doesn’t sink in a lake like a tank, either, and he also managed to get crushed by a tower crumbling, but only ends up with a few bricks covering him. After also running around after being almost run through with a sword courtesy of Euron. 😂

      I also liked the “offscreen” fight between Arya and the Waif. It doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion, but I thought it was a fantastic use of her training as a blind girl, which was ironically done mostly with the Waif. I’m not sure if people just wanted to hear grappling in the dark or what, but as soon as she went lights-out, I may have “whoo-hoo!”d out loud. 🤪

      I was shocked when Jaime lived after sinking in his armor. With how GOT kills off stars I thought Jaime went out in a valiant moment of trying to end the war in a single blow. It did seem silly that Bronn could pull him up and he was ok. Even so, Jaime’s charge riding the horse through the flames was one of those scenes that I will always remember.

      Regarding Arya I’m glad you cheered. I did think her final scene with Jaqen was awesome when she says she’s Arya Stark of Winterfell and she’s going home. Finding her identity was such a major part of her arc that the final scene was the most important part. The problem I had was the buildup with the Waif all season. And since Arya was injured and the Waif was doing just fine after the chase it was hard to understand what happened. I believed that all FM are trained blind so the Waif would have also been able to fight in the dark. In the books it is said that all FM go through blind training. I suppose the explanation is the show ignored the books since the entire waif arc doesn’t resemble the books at all. So perhaps Mylod and/or D&D were saying the Waif didn’t know how to fight blind. That’s the only explanation I can go with although it is still tough.. After the Waif beats up on Arya all season as a fan I wanted to see how Arya did it. She was injured and the Waif always got the best of her. After reading the books this is what I would have loved to have seen….

      Arya has warging abilities in the books and can see through a cat’s eyes. This is how she sees while blind in the books. Cats do have some night vision. I would have loved it if Arya would have had some cats in her hideout with her and we could have seen through the cat’s night vision. This would have taken some development of Arya’s warging ability and as we know D&D stayed away from a lot of the magical elements.
      I hadn’t read the books yet at the time and I was hoping just for some green night vision so I could see what happened. It had to be a major fight since he waif was an amazing fighter and she was a FM too. And the waif wasn’t injured.

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    148. Tron79: I was shocked when Jaime lived after sinking in his armor.With how GOT kills off stars I thought Jaime went out in a valiant moment of trying to end the war in a single blow.It did seem silly that Bronn could pull him up and he was ok. Even so, Jaime’s charge riding the horse through the flames was one of those scenes that I will always remember.

      That was honestly one of the best episodes/battles of the entire show, for me. I was glued to the screen, and kept getting so confused about who the heck I was cheering for. LOL. I LOVED Bronn going all Mad Maxx with the scorpion, and then went “Augh no! Don’t hit the dragon!” “Yay, Jaime!!! Augh no don’t kill the….AUGH don’t BE killed by the…” 😆

      Yeah the Bronn saving Jaime bit was rather far fetched (literally – they were a HUGE distance away when they surfaced!!!) I did like the bit with Bronn dropping the bag of gold to go after him though.

      I think we are supposed to assume that the FM aren’t all trained blind in the show, and that this was a specific punishment to Arya for not just failing her mission but doing it in order to get personal revenge. I could easily have missed something, as I haven’t rewatched it in a long time though.

      There was one brief shot of a cat running across the alley in Braavos – not sure if it was meant to be a nod to that, but I do wish Cat of the Canals had made an appearance! I really loved reading the Braavos parts in the books, all Arya’s training…ah well. It would have been impossible to get that all in, I know.

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    149. Tron79,

      Oh, and speaking of best scenes…they absolutely nailed the scene of Arya debating about throwing Needle in the sea. I could HEAR the words from the book going through Arya’s head. Some of Maisie’s absolute best acting there, without speaking a word.

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    150. Exactly this for me. She was stabbed multiple time’s in a way that would kill the majority of time. It would have been way more realistic to stab her once and escape but Mylod wanted to shock the audience into thinking she was dead. In isolation it was just about passable but next episode she is running around like a ninja again too.

      I wouldn’t say I hated it but it was below the exceptional standards set in S6.

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    151. Jon Snowed:
      Exactly this for me. She was stabbed multiple time’s in a way that would kill the majority of time. It would have been way more realistic to stab her once and escape but Mylod wanted to shock the audience into thinking she was dead. In isolation it was just about passable but next episode she is running around like a ninja again too.

      I wouldn’t say I hated it but it was below the exceptional standards set in S6.

      I remember there was a debate at the time about how long Arya was at Lady Crane’s healing. It looks like it was the next day but some thought she could
      Have been healing for a week or longer before the Waif shows up. That at least would make it slightly more believable. Arya was able to withstand pain after being hit by the waif’s stick all season as part of her fm training in the show. It would have been better to have a less serious wound. Part was that the Waif wasn’t supposed to let Arya suffer but she twists the knife instead. I think at the time I was with the fans that thought she was healing at Lady Crane’s for a week or so. Otherwise it made even less sense when Arya jumps into action.

        Quote  Reply

    152. Pigeon:
      Tron79,

      Oh, and speaking of best scenes…they absolutely nailed the scene of Arya debating about throwing Needle in the sea. I could HEAR the words from the book going through Arya’s head. Some of Maisie’s absolute best acting there, without speaking a word.

      Yes this was a great scene!. Maisie is great at emoting without saying a word. However the book’s scene was even more emotional for me when she starts remembering about her various personal items and then gets to needle and thinks about Jon and it’s just too much.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Pigeon: That was honestly one of the best episodes/battles of the entire show, for me. I was glued to the screen, and kept getting so confused about who the heck I was cheering for. LOL. I LOVED Bronn going all Mad Maxx with the scorpion, and then went “Augh no! Don’t hit the dragon!” “Yay, Jaime!!! Augh no don’t kill the….AUGH don’t BE killed by the…”

      Yeah the Bronn saving Jaime bit was rather far fetched (literally – they were a HUGE distance away when they surfaced!!!) I did like the bit with Bronn dropping the bag of gold to go after him though.

      I think we are supposed to assume that the FM aren’t all trained blind in the show, and that this was a specific punishment to Arya for not just failing her mission but doing it in order to get personal revenge. I could easily have missed something, as I haven’t rewatched it in a long time though.

      I totally agree with getting confused on who to root for!!! I had low expectations with Matt Shakman directing, since he was mainly known for comedies at the time. He did an outstanding job with tearing at our loyalties to our favorite characters. Yes, that was a tough decision for Bronn to give up the gold!

      I think you’re right that the show decided that the blind training was just a punishment. That’s the only thing that made any sense (if the Waif couldn’t fight blind). I remember thinking at the time (before reading the books) that I thought all FM probably knew how to fight in the dark. I was proven correct after reading the books, but I guess Mylod and D&D decided that only Arya knew how to do it. Some said that Arya did it more recently so she may have been better at it than the Waif…. anyway…this has been a hard one for me to let go as you can tell! In some ways I wish I could have just cheered like you did. I was just so disappointed that I didn’t get to see the payoff of the Waif vs. Arya that had been built up all year. The books did make it a little better for me. There is one Arya off screen kill. Since I saw that GRRM used a similar off screen method in the books for a different character it was a little easier for me to accept.

      when she killed the night’s watch deserter, it was off screen and very effective. She later had to explain things to the kindly man, which resulted in her blind training…
      In the books it said that she would have received the blind training anyway. This just sped up the process some.

        Quote  Reply

    154. Jon Snowed,

      She was in mortal danger and under adrenaline. Obviously, you people have no idea what humans are capable of in extreme conditions. Ser Davos survived a big explosion although he was only a few meters away. It is definitely survivable, end of discussion. People survived much worse!

        Quote  Reply

    155. Tron79,

      ”Btw. I just watched her first two Dr. Who episodes. She is really great in those. Even better than i remember when i watched them a couple years ago.

      ——
      I only tuned in to Dr. Who on BBC America to watch Maisie Williams in her four guest-starting episodes, “The Girl Who Died”; “The Woman Who Lived”; “Face the Raven”; and “Hell Bent.”

      After her final episode (Dr. Who Season 9e12 finale), the level of hype of GoT fans for an Arya & Sandor spin-off or an Arya West of Westeros sequel was on par with that of Dr. Who fans clamoring for an Ashildr x Clara Dr. Who spinoff – as well as fanfic “shipping” Clara ❤️ Ashildr derived from possible double entendres in “The Girl Who Died” and this little exchange between Clara (Jenna Coleman) and Ashildr (Maisie Williams) in “Hell Bent” about “wiggle room” and “we could have stuff happen on the way.

      at 0:41 – 0:54

        Quote  Reply

    156. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”Btw. I just watched her first two Dr. Who episodes. She is really great in those. Even better than i remember when i watched them a couple years ago.

      —— I only tuned in to Dr. Who on BBC America to watch Maisie Williams in her four guest-starting episodes, “The Girl Who Died”; “The Woman Who Lived”; “Face the Raven”; and “Hell Bent.”

      After her final episode (Dr. Who Season 9e12 finale), the level of hype of GoT fans for an Arya & Sandor spin-off or an Arya West of Westeros sequel was on par with that of Dr. Who fans clamoring for an Ashildr x Clara Dr. Who spinoff – as well as fanfic “shipping” Clara ❤️ Ashildr derived from possible double entendres in “The Girl Who Died” and this little exchange between Clara (Jenna Coleman) and Ashildr (Maisie Williams) in “Hell Bent” about “wiggle room” and “we could have stuff happen on the way.

      at 0:41 – 0:54

      I just finished watching hell bent. Yes I can see how fans definitely wanted a spin-off for sure!

        Quote  Reply

    157. Tron79,

      Nina Gold, George Martin, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss should be commended for spotting Maisie Williams’s potential way back when. The showrunners recount this in the S4e1 Episode Commentary (narrated by David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and Pedro Pascal) during the Arya & the Hound segment at 4:51 – 9:06:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHUoupnOt-E

      5:47 – 6:25 Casting Maisie Williams
      6:25 – 6:40 Casting Rory McCann

        Quote  Reply

    158. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Nina Gold, George Martin, David Benioffand D.B. Weiss should be commended for spotting Maisie Williams’s potential way back when. The showrunners recount this in the S4e1 Episode Commentary (narrated by David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and Pedro Pascal) during the Arya & the Hound segment at 4:51 – 9:06:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHUoupnOt-E

      5:47 – 6:25 Casting Maisie Williams
      6:25 – 6:40 Casting Rory McCann

      That was awesome. Thanks for the link. Maisie is the best as they said. I will need to start a rewatch soon.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Nina Gold, George Martin, David Benioffand D.B. Weiss should be commended for spotting Maisie Williams’s potential way back when. The showrunners recount this in the S4e1 Episode Commentary (narrated by David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and Pedro Pascal) during the Arya & the Hound segment at 4:51 – 9:06:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHUoupnOt-E

      5:47 – 6:25 Casting Maisie Williams
      6:25 – 6:40 Casting Rory McCann

      Honestly, they should be commended for casting damn near everyone, because I don’t think I’ve seen a better cast, especially of a show of this scale. After the pilot, mind you – I am glad they replaced Tamzin with Emilia. Nina Gold IS gold. My personal favourites of course are Maisie, Rory, Iain, Lena, and Pedro (I mean, he was just perfection as Oberyn). But Iain as Jorah – talk about casting against the description in the books, and how amazingly it turned out. Eeeeeeeee. ❤

        Quote  Reply

    160. Pigeon,

      in total agreement. Im sure some luck was involved but their ability to pick out the best was awesome, esp since you don’t know how they will turn out as they grew. But they all did great!

        Quote  Reply

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