So, Sansa just let thousands die?

Home Forums The Show Game of Thrones TV Discussion So, Sansa just let thousands die?

This topic contains 66 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  Wimsey 2 weeks, 5 days ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #69636 Reply

    MotorMind

    CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 9!

    If you look beyond the stunning battles, episode 9 has some very aggravating morals to it.
    I hope I am wrong, and these these subjects will be addressed in the next episode. but i doubt it.

    First and foremost they are seen in Sansa’s actions. For some reason,she decided not to tell Jon that the vale army can join the battle. This action, or rather inaction, has caused Jon to proceed to battle at very poor timing(long enough before the vale forces join), causing the casualties of the Stark’s army to be much greater than was needed(But i guess its mostly wildlings, so who cares? right?).
    I can understand not telling him immediately after her conversation with little finger, maybe shame, pride, and just not trusting little finger to fulfill his proposition. But not telling Jon the day before?!

    Of course there is a very simple explanation here, if one forgets about the characters, and focuses on the writers.
    in a very cliche manner, an epic battle has to have an epic twist(or at least a very obvious one..) when all seems lost. Following the need for this twist, and adding in some sloppy writing, it is easily obtained that the vale army would come as it did.

    Sloppy writing is something that I can accept. not gladly. but I can. (ahm Arya ahm).
    What aggravates me here is that this sloppy writing ended up in the celebration of poor morals.

    When we see Sansa, coming in and saving the day, she is smiling, the directors make it look like she is our savior!the heroine of the episode, in this female driven season.
    But wait. If her character would have told Jon, countless of lives would have been saved. Meaning, when she understood that she had the power to defeat Ramsey, with the vale on her side, the moral logical thought that should have came to mind was – By withholding information, I am responsible for the death hundreds, if not more, of people who were fighting for me! that is a very depressing thought, yet one that should be a pillar stone in a mind of a person of high moral in such a situation.

    Just think how this would have gone down if Jon had died? how would Sansa feel? would she be held responsible?

    Will such thoughts cross any characters mind in the future? I hope so, but it seems not.
    Sansa is shown in the last scene, getting her(or maybe the viewer’s?) long awaited revenge, and leaves the scene smiling. The directors always choose their last scene carefully, and this one was used to make the audience feel Sansa’s empowerment together with her, making her a stronger character, defeating the evil Ramsey (which alone is enough to make us feel she is good, after making Ramsey so evil..).
    Who will avenge the deaths she caused? it seems that no one. probably no one even cares.
    Also, as i stated before, the whole vale last minute save was probably just a tool to shape the tension in the battle, and the audience is just supposed to forget such petty details and enjoy the whole epic arch portrayed.
    But the responsibility for hundreds of deaths is not a petty detail, and treating it as such is even just out of sloppiness, is a poor moral statement.

    Second decision the writers made, which has the same lacking logic and moral is Jon’s decision to charge at the Boltons..
    If you followed my arguments from before, I am sure you can see how Jon leading his forces into an extremely disadvantageous position, driven by selfishness, and lack of any wits, just because his own brother died(I mean, Come on! he is supposed to be a great commander!) is also problematic writing.
    A special point to be made here, is that the forces he is leading are mostly not his banner man, but FREE folks. they should not care too much about the loss of his brother, he is not their King, and they have been through much worse of losing a brother themselves.
    It seems Jon clearly does not care bout the lives of his army, yet in the end they still stand around him and let him defeat Ramsey in hand to hand battle, clearly leaving Ramsey for Jon intentionally, not attacking him by them selves. Basically just being disposable extras for the fight the writers wanted to show, instead of actually being people.
    I would like just to point out the utterly pointless death of Wun Wun the last giant, but I will not expand on it, as I believe I had written enough already.

    Such claims of immorality as I made here can easily be made to many characters in the show. But this time it is different. These are the noble Starks. Arya who refused to kill the actress, Jon, who insisted to save the wildlings, not to speak of Ned. These characters hold the moral of the show, and as the show is reaching its end, they seem to be represented as the overall ‘good guys’ in many ways. Endowing them with such questionable moral acts, and not addressing it or taking the implications of the acts seriously, is sending the wrong message to the audience.

    Just this episode we had Tyrion say: “It always seems a bit abstract doesn’t it? Other people dying.” If the writers present it like they did in the battle of the bastards, it most surely does.

    This is not a cartoon, This is not Hollywood, This is the game of thrones, and i expected more.

    sorry for the long post. here’s the end:
    END

  • #69643 Reply

    ByeDany

    Thousands did die? Yes. But just thousands of Boltons.

  • #69649 Reply

    Grimace

    I agree the writing could have been better. Jon should not have gotten that emotional but that is why this is a show, just to get us involved I guess.

    Sansa looked like she wanted to tell Jon, but didn’t.

    I really hate Mereen, and Danny for that matter. I hope Snow leads everyone vs the White Walkers and is crowned King of the 7 Kingdoms.

  • #69652 Reply

    Boardshorts85

    I personally didn’t read this whole “Sansa withholding information from Jon” as sloppy or weak writing for the sake of a telegraphed plot-twist. The big development for Sansa since the Purple Wedding is learning to play the game. Her marriage to Ramsay demonstrated that, as a woman in this medieval world, there’s still enormous potential for her victimization, but from the way she manipulated the Lords Declarant by helping Baelish after the death of Lysa, to now, she’s learning to play the real game of thrones to ensure her survival.

    Jon, for all his virtue, has never seen the whole board. Sansa hits this nail on the head when she criticizes him for underestimating Ramsay. Only she knows how truly cunning and evil Ramsay is. By withholding the Vale Knights from Jon, it forces Jon to act as he did, which taps into Ramsay’s sadism and ego, which in turn gets him to commit his forces fully and recklessly. Ramsay can’t resist the urge to send every last man into the battle to completely wipe out any fragment of opposition. This is demonstrated by the volley after volley after volley of arrows his men rained down. He killed just as many of his own men as he did Jon’s, but was committed to completely wiping them out. In doing so, he has no counterattack available when the Knights of the Vale do show up.

    Now, let’s assume that Sansa tells Jon ahead of time. They wait around for a day for the Knights of the Vale to show up and march on Winterfell in force. Ramsay retreats from the field of battle and instead forces them to lay siege to the castle. The Ironborn demonstrated in season 2, and it was disussed heavily in the books that a small force can hold Winterfell against an army for a long long time. One storm comes in before the siege is successful and that ruins all chance of victory for Sansa & Co.

    Alternatively, maybe they come up with a plan to conceal the Knights of the Vale’s presence until a critical moment. Then you have to convince Jon to charge in just as he did and willingly sacrifice his men in the hopes that he survives long enough… I don’t see that playing out as convincingly to Ramsay.

    In the end, after all she’s been through, Sansa has lost that Stark nobility. She’s spent years now with the Lannisters, Baelish, and the Boltons, and its changed her, not necessarily for the better. I believe this is exactly what Ramsay meant when he said that part of him is inside her now.

    • #69683 Reply

      MotorMind

      Boardshorts85, I like your interpretation, but I don’t think it is accurate for the following simple reason:
      Sansa herself tells Jon in the beginning of the episode, she does’t know any thing about battles!
      Yet, to see the large picture as you described one should have quite a strategic mind and understand how Ramsey will conduct his forces and at what time major battle turns will occur. One could solve this by assuming that this is Little Finger’s plan. He might just conjure this scheme, yet if so, why should Sansa trust his complicated scheme? she already got hurt by his last one, and showed no intention to following him again.
      More over, if it was her own plan, why tell Jon not to fall into Ramsey’s trap? if she was such a planned, cold ,clever strategist, willing to sacrifice her army and her ‘back from the dead’ brother, she should by no means discourage Jon from acting foolishly and attacking, she should even encourage him to do so.

      Now, Let us assume that Sansa does tell Jon as you did(at least before the meeting with Ramsey, so Jon could set the battle to a later hour, giving the Vale Knights time to arrive).
      As you said, Jon can’t just add them to the regular army, since Ramsey will indeed see them and retreat back to Winterfell.
      What can they do?
      For starters, they could just do exactly the same as they did(fight until Ramsey sends in all of his man), yet instead of the Knights of the Vale appearing at a pretty random moment(Just as Jon was saved from the stampede, for extra climatic tension), Jon himself, or Davos, or anyone with a leading role, can call upon them by blowing a horn for example.
      Questions:What would have happened if the Vale Knights came: a.sooner? or b.later?
      Answers:
      a. if they came sooner, Ramsey would have retreated, going back the the siege plot, making all the deaths on the battlefield useless.
      b. later – there would be no one on the Stark army to save…

      Its a good thing they came just at the Goldilocks time zone! yet they did come later than was optimal.
      After all, from the moment Ramsey sent all of his man, it was to late to retreat, so if the power to call upon the Vale Knight was in the hands of someone on the battlefield, most of those slaughtered by Ramsey’s shield spear formation would have survived. As far as Ramsey goes, i don’t think he will notice a difference, the wildlings will still fight for their lives and do their best to kill the Boltons.

      A much better scenario is also possible. ,If Jon had stuck to his original plan after Rickon’s death, and found a clever way to lure Ramsey to attack him, It would have been easier to flank the Bolton troops as they were further away from Winterfell, just blow the horn when enough man come to attack you. In this optimal scenario many more Stark soldiers would have been saved.If Jon failed to lure Ramsey, he could always, as a last result, decide to attack as he did, and we will get the scenario described above, at least if Jon knew about the Vale Knights there was some chance that the fight will unfold like this.

      Why would Jon agree? Jon knows what is at stakes, and seeing the given options, he will clearly choose the best option he’s got. yes, this will need some convincing, but showing the audience what are the options, and having a scene of him being convinced could be done engagingly if a good script is provided.

      Another option(though probably not as feasible, or logical), was to use the forces to seize Winterfell while Ramsey is busy fighting. As we saw, almost no man were left to defend it. You said that in the books, Winterfell was hard to seize, even with a small force guarding it, yet, in the show we see one giant and a few dozen(at most) wildlings take over it in minutes. let us assume that one giant is equal to 1000 man(and this in no doubt a wild over estimation), still the Vale Knights should have easily taken over it(at least with the shows logic..). after seizing the Winterfell, leaving Ramsey no where to go, it will be easy to flank him from behind and win.

      These options, as you pointed out, involve concealing the Vale knights, which sounds difficult, and that really makes you wonder, how is it that an army of thousands of man, go all the way to the north, up to Winterfell, and no one(Ramsey nor Jon) knows about it? they must be all camouflage masters =]

      So, as I see it, the fact that Sansa withheldn information was pretty devastating for the over possible outcomes of the battle. Maybe the numbers in my previous post were exaggerated, but there is still a clear difference in fatality caused by her actions.

      END

    • #70031 Reply

      JonAhai

      There is no way around it. Withholding rhe information was stupid. As for the argument that Boltons could have hidden in Winterfell, I am forced to remind you that the Northern army had a 20 foot tall giant that could break through the gate in one minute.

      In fact, had Sansa given him that information, many other Northern houses would have joined their cause, thereby comoletely overwhelming Ramsay’s numbers and forcing him to terms before the battle even begun. It is even possible the Umbers might have betrayed him from inside had Sansa given Jon this information as soon as she had it. More, had she accepted Littlefinger’s help from the beginning, the crisis not only could have been averted, but Rickon might have lived (depending on if the Umbers would be willing to betray Ramsay knowing his was a lost cause).

      But not only did her decision result in the death of more than a thousand, including her own brother, it also gave Littlefinger a massive numbers advantage, putting the true power in his own hands.

      No matter how you slice it, Sansa made as horrible a decision as Jon did.

      As for Jon going full Leeroy Jenkins, it was a stupid move, but understandable and not without historical precedent. When King Richard slaughtered thousands in front of Saladin’s army, the Saracens charged a very well defended position and lost. The point is, even great commanders like Saladin and his people have made the mistake of reacting to inhuman butchery in the heat of the moment.

      The bottom line is both of them made horrible decisions based on emotion.

    • #70497 Reply

      seidh

      To add to your argument: At the end of season 5 Roose Bolton states that Winterfell has six months worth of provisions, therefore it would be strategically superior to force Stannis’ army to lay a siege against them. Sansa doesn’t need to understand battle to know that they don’t have the time nor resources to lay a siege against Winterfell. All she has to do is tell that to the Vale army commanders and then get out of their way.

  • #69665 Reply

    Lyanna Mormont for Queen

    Great analysis!

  • #69668 Reply

    Zach

    Here is sloppy writing: at the early part of this episode when the Stark’s meet Ramsay face to face pre battle. Ramsay tells Jon Snow & co. that he hasn’t fed his dogs in 7 days. He says this AFTER Sansa had already rode off on her horse.
    So at the very end of the episode, how does Sansa know Ramsay hasn’t fed his dogs in 7 days? Major error in the writing.

    • #69735 Reply

      Snowberry85

      Zach,

      I agree with you on that. I thought I was going crazy the first time I watched it. I just finished watching the episode again and it does appear that Sansa left before he mentioned that he did not feed his dogs. My only thought is that it was discussed while they were planning strategy.

      If someone could clarify to me where Jon & Co. set up camp at if it wasn’t at Castle Black. It looked like Castle Black to me but he found the horse that he made for the princess. That sis not happen outside of Castle Black.

  • #69673 Reply

    Roast

    I agree with Boardshorts85, and was thinking this exact thing. Everybody is/was tearing their hair out at the fact that Sansa withheld this info about the Knights of the Vale. She withheld it, because she #1. was hoping not to have to use it, and #2. knew if she told Jon he would INSIST they use it, then it would have fallen into the very trap that she assumed Ramsey was going to set up for Jon.

    Jon is a world class fighter. But when it comes to the big “game” he isn’t that great yet. Sansa has been training under/around world class “games players” (Tyrion and Littlefinger), and she gets it.

    She knew Rickon was as good as dead. She knew there would be no saving him. She knew Ramsey’s savagery would undo Job because Jon isn’t equipped to fight against that (yet).

    Many more died that should have, probably. But this is war, and they were going to die no matter what. Sansa knows this, and basically used Jon to further the interests of House Stark. He may not like it, just as Ned wouldn’t have. But in this game, you either win, or you die. And she gets that better than most.

    • #87512 Reply

      Mommamia68

      You are assuming Sansa is responsible for putting Bolton in the kennel. I wondered about the timing as well but then discovered it made equal sense to assume that Jon had arranged for Bolton to be put there because he’d been threatened with that death to his face. Remember, Sansa asks Jon “where is he?” And then the scene goes to the kennel. Or you can assume that when she asks they have a discussion that didn’t make the editing cut about how to deal with him.

      Either way gives the writers a way out of the “Sansa already road away” issue but, again, I had the same problem with it that you did the first three times I watched the episode.

  • #69677 Reply

    Lyanna Mormont for Queen

    Oops, it does not seem clear from my previous reply, but I cannot edit…I mean Boardshort85 analysed the situation well, and he is probably right.

  • #69680 Reply

    Razorback

    I don’t have a problem with Sansa not telling Jon. She didn’t know if Littlefinger and the Vale would be showing up. Or at least we didn’t see a reply if there was one. So assuming there was no response from Littlefinger she can’t tell Jon that she sent for the extra help because it would lose his trust even before the battle. At least now she can say “Without them we would all be dead”. So yeah Jon will be upset and would have rather of had Sansa inform him of the possible incoming support but because of that he still owes his life to her and Littlefinger (which sucks but its true).

    Will be interesting to see if there’s a scene with Jon and Sansa discussing this and Littlefinger pops into the room.

    For your 2nd point of Jon letting his emotions over come him and disbanding any tactics he had drawn up. Put yourself in his shoes. He’s prepared for battle knowing many men on both sides are going to die. Then out walks his “brother” and Ramsay pulls a knife and Jon thinks hes about to stab him, but instead cuts him free and lets him run towards him (in a straight line, which is my problem with the episode) and then shoots him with an arrow just before he reaches him, imagine how overcome with anger and hate that Jon has. Eventually we see the hate towards the end of the episode. It doesn’t matter who the commander is at that point, they will become pissed and charge at the enemy.

    I understand some things about the timing of the vale arriving are definitely just for the extra tension but it still is a show. Yes it’s GAME OF THRONES but its still a show.

    • #69686 Reply

      meThinks

      Clearly it would have been better to tie Rickon to a cross near Ramsey’s forces and set it on fire, or more accurately set a slow fire that will burn him alive in a period of a few minutes, forcing Jon to charge his forces to save him.

      I mean, what if Ramsey had missed?? he would have let the right ruler of Winterfell walk away.. I know he is a good archer, but you can’t be that confident in your skills..

    • #69736 Reply

      Snowberry85

      Razorback,

      I agree with you. Unfortunately it was better that Jon didn’t know that Littlefinger and the Vale was coming because they came and broke up the pit they were stuck in. If Jon knew before hand the Vale and Jon & Co would of ended up in that pit. Jon and Sansa admitted that they were never really close so the lack of communication is not a surprise to me. Sansa was also mad at Jon for not including her in the strategy meeting and she does have a petty personality.

      Little finger is going to want Sansa to marry him so he can some how become ward of the North, especially if Jon decides to remain Lord Commander.

  • #69700 Reply

    Nam

    Sansa is a bitch, simple as that. She doesn’t tell Jon because she doesn’t trust him. The only reason is because he is only her bastard brother and she takes after her mother, never likes Jon at all. She pushed him into the battle because he is her last choice, the last male Stark who could fight and command. She would never keep her secret from Robb, that’s all.

  • #69721 Reply

    Wimsey

    For the 1000th time: Sansa had no idea if LF was going to come. Remember, the last time she met, she told him not just that she did not want his help, but that she never wanted to see him again, and that if she did, then she would have them killed.

    Then, a few months later, she has to eat crow and say: “Um, I’ve reconsidered.”

    Now, suppose that you are in LF’s position: but suppose that you have not been maneuvering to get an army north for a year or so at this point, anyway. Your probable reaction to Sansa’s letter would be: “Sorry, you had your chance: you said you could go it alone, and I have every confidence that you will. Don’t write again.” And Sansa had to think that this was a very real possible outcome.

    • #69737 Reply

      Snowberry85

      Whimsy,

      I understand where you’re coming from for Sansa burning bridges but LF is also the same person who persuaded her to marry Psycho Ramsey knowing he was crazy. Also LF is very smart and conniving. He knows that if he helps in this battle and Sansa & Co come out on top that he could possibly inch his way in to controlling the North by way of marriage. If there was nothing in it for LF then I’m sure he would have Ghosted that Raven from Sansa but there was too much power at stake.

    • #69785 Reply

      Nicole

      Perhaps she didn’t know LF was coming. That was never shown. For the sake of argument, let’s assume Sansa didn’t know for certain if or when they would arrive. She knew there was a *chance*, and that’s why she’s absolutely terrible for not mentioning it (that we know of). She assumes a lot of blame here since she 1) forced Jon into going after Winterfell and saving Rickon at Castle Black, 2) the free folk, who really had little to nothing to gain here, risked and/or gave up their lives for *her* home, and 3) she knew they didn’t have enough troops, and was arguing that they should wait, but never gave Jon a valid reason to do so. Part of me thinks she was just mad because she wasn’t getting any “respect” from anyone – Davos questioned what she had to say at Castle Black, the Blackfish turned her down, the other house lords we saw all dismissed what she had to say, and she was clearly annoyed that no one was asking her in the war room for her opinion. I agree that they should have, but at the same time, why not speak up while everyone was there. I keep hearing about how Sansa is learning how to play the game, etc, but I’m not so convinced … yet. I don’t dislike Sansa, at least prior to now, but this season is proving hard to like her. Absolutely she’s been through horrible things. But who in this world hasn’t? So when she doesn’t care about what anyone else has gone through, like Jon for example, and only wants her revenge (or whatever her goal) at any cost, has she really changed that much? Thus far, the only thing I’ve seen change in her is that she’s no longer naive. But I’d hardly make the jump to her “seeing the big picture” or “playing the game”. I don’t see that at all, yet.

    • #69801 Reply

      Flayed Potatoes

      Assuming Sansa doesn’t know:

      If Sansa had mentioned the possibility of the Vale army arriving, Jon would have sent scouts to see if that was the case and figure out when they would arrive at Winterfell. If they are spotted (perhaps even a secret meeting is organized) the battle would have been planned accordingly: Jon’s army forces Ramsay to face them in open field and lasts long enough for the Vale to secretly arrive like they did on the show, the Vale then attacks Ramsay from the other side.

      • #69845 Reply

        Nicole

        Flayed,
        Respectfully no. First because Sansa does not know anything about battles and strategies. Knowing Ramsay and how he likes to manipulate people does not equate to be a master tactician. Second because, upon hearing this, Jon and Davos would be the ones to know that you don’t want Ramsay barricading himself in the castle, but rather draw him out. The scout thing perhaps not because, again, Jon and Davos would know more about military moves and would consider this as well.

        I don’t know her true motives, but it wasn’t because she suddenly figured out how to win a battle.

      • #69851 Reply

        Flayed Potatoes

        Yes, she’s not a tactician. But she still should have been honest to Jon and the houses backing them.

    • #69809 Reply

      Nadia

      So, what, she just decided to ride off for a stroll in the middle of battle and SURPRISE!!! ran into a massive Vale army.

      Yeah, right.

      She knew at some point. If the show wants us to believe she just conveniently knew right when the battle had already started and she couldn’t tell Jon….ok.

  • #69752 Reply

    Jen

    Everything that has been said so far seems logical. Yet nobody mentioned my first thought after seeing the fight: sansa knew exactly what she did and wanted Jon to lose his army.

    Sansa has never been portrayed as a moral character. One of her most established character traits is her contempt for everyone who she feels is not worthy of her. She judges people based on appearances and standing from the very first book to the last episode: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, the Hound, the wildlings, Davos. If sansa is one thing not, it’s moral.

    The show gave us two (!) Otherwise pointless scenes where Sansa had the chance to tell Jon, and she chose not to. The inclusion of those scenes and the omitting makes me believe sansa knew lf was coming, and deliberately chose not to tell Jon. She doesn’t know Jon, doesn’t like him, and certainly doesn’t trust him. She genuinely assumes he wants the throne. I wouldn’t even put it past lf to have shemed this himself, since while Sansa can be manipulative and cunning, even dangerous, battle strategy really isn’t her forte. This smells of lf from start to finish, the more I think about it.

  • #69784 Reply

    Kaisergq

    All very legit concerns and possible motivations. We need to know these things because the writing is not clear. What is Jon and Sansa’s dynamic? Do they trust one another? Does everyone realize how stupid Jon was and will there be ramifications from the survivors? Did Sansa withhold her knowledge on purpose? Did she know Littlefinger would arrive on time? Was Littlefinger already there, awaiting her orders? Was Sansa counting on Jon to actually stick to his defensive battleplan before committing the Arryn forces? Was Sansa counting on Jon falling into a trap and being nearly annihilated? If so, is Sansa a coldhearted b***ch? Was Sansa hoping to clear the field of all rivals (Rickon & Jon & Ramsay & Wildlings, gasp!) before winning the battle? Will Littlefinger simply seize control, having the only fresh army in the 7 kingdoms, or will he demand something (Sansa?) in return? Will Sansa have the power to refuse Littlefinger? Will we see the restructureing of the Northern houses (ramifications for Bolton, Umber, and Karstark treachery)? Will we see Lord Manderly? (the Manderly’s, White Harbor etc. have been mentioned A LOT this season only to have the “The North Remember’s” speech go wasted). If only the show would have these addressed in a scene next week, but it probably wont, opting to ignore all the character dynamics and instead rush to wrap up other storylines and jump into the future. As for me, i loved the battle itself, i just would have loved more intrigue and conspiracy beforehand. Winterfell could have been the new kings landing, but oh well.

  • #69799 Reply

    richard decredico

    OP is spot on.

    Shit writing, manipulative for visuals and hype drama and ratings.

    The whole thing made little sense and a lot of character actions defied the internal logic and consistency of the show world. It’s very LOST-like in how the showrunners don’t give a rat’s fuck about real internal consistency and logic in the narrative.

  • #69813 Reply

    MissBoof

    Let’s be honest, Sansa was protecting HERSELF. Jon dismissed her and wouldn’t even let her finish a sentence before he started brooding. Not only did she ensure that Ramsay would be defeated, by WAITING until at least SOME of Ramsays army were dead, she probably did not have much of a choice. Littlefinger was not going to run in balls blazing at the very beginning and sacrifice a huge portion of his men, for a guy (Jon Snow) that he probably wants more dead than in Winterfell. So, he made a smart move. He waited until the END of the battle, where exhaustion and death was taking over and he plummeted in, not only saving the say, but saving ALOT of his men. Back to Sansa, keep in mind she HATEDHATEDHATED Jon their ENTIRE LIFE. So WHY WOULD SHE risk everything to ensure he succeeds. She has gotten very good at seeing something she NEEDS and moving in. She does not NEED Jon alive, and to be honest she probably is not entirely stoked he is alive. She used Jon to remove Ramsay, and used their relationship as brother/sister as the catalyst and she used Littlefinger to ‘save’ Jon and kill Ramsay, although I am not sure exactly what she promised Littlefinger to make him stretch his neck out for that situation. I guess we will see soon enough.

    • #69925 Reply

      Stuart

      “Littlefinger was not going to run in balls blazing at the very beginning and sacrifice a huge portion of his men.”

      Agreed. In fact, that is the plan LF stated to Cersei in season 5. Yes, I know LF lies all the time to shake things up. But it still could be true.

      In season 5 Littlefinger turned the Lannisters against the Boltons by arranging Sansa’s marriage to Ramsay. Cersai wants Sansa’s “head on a spike” while Littlefinger says he wants to be Warden of the North. He promises to swoop in with the knights of the Vale after the Bolton and Baratheon forces are weakened in the battle between Stannis and Bolton. Cersie promises to have Tommen issue a royal decree making LF Warden of the North after LF destroys the Boltons and delivers Sansa.

      Perhaps that is still LF’s game?

      OTOH, Sansa may be suspicious enough to suspect all of this. She knows not to trust LF. She knows she was burned by LF. She knows LF was awarded Harrenhall after arranging the marriage of Margaery to Jeoffrey, thereby securing Tyrell support in the battle of Blackwater. Sansa was at court when that came down. She may even suspect LF’s role in her father’s capture at court (when LF held a knife to Ned Stark’s throat) when Ned challenged Jeoffrey’s legitimacy.

      Perhaps the new Sansa will show some real balls now and make the North hers. I think she will be believed by Robyn and the Vale forces and not LF if she accuses LF of killing Lysa. She gets to throw a monkey wrench in the Riverlands where Harrenhall, Riverrun, and the Twins are located. And where I fully expect Arya Stark to show up very soon.

  • #69814 Reply

    karadjanov

    2 epic scenes do not make a good episode. The episode in whole was stupid as hell. The Daenerys part was nise but the battle of the bastards was sooo stupuid it hurts. I do not mean the actual battle ( It was Epic, Great Effects, Great Music, Great Cinematography ) but everything else about it in terms of plot and meaning was simply moronic and stupid. John is the one who is shy and patient and a bit melanholic ( reminds me of Rhaegar ) and Ramsay is the agressive compulsive and reckless one he may be smart but he is no were as near as smart as the show portrayed him to be. They completely swtched their personalities for this episode because there were to stupid to thing of anything else. It would have made so much more sence for Rickon to be skinned and on one of the crosses. There is no way he could be hit from that distance unless all of the archers shoot at once ( and speaking of that as soon as John was in range why didn’t the archers kill them both? stupid writing all around.. ) and Sansa… she is so stupid it is just sad. Her character development whent down the drain she is still a stupid naive child. The only thing that came out of her mouth that made sense was that Rickon was a goner ( I really liked her there but the very next moment she dropped the ball when she did not tel John about the Vale. Because of her She and John are in Littlefinger’s pocket now.

    The way it is going there a few posibilieties that explain Sansa’s behaviour from most likely to least likely:

    1. moronic writing
    2. She is still a naive child
    3. She is playing a deeper game. (000000000000000000000000.1%)

  • #69838 Reply

    ghost1

    I for one, loved this episode. I think we have to have a little mystery here. I can feel GRRM’s fingertips on this made for tv show. Too many arm-chair quarterbacks picking this thing apart. Remember, this is a tv drama, loosely following the books (even the ones not out yet). They (the writers) may have some quirkiness to the timing of events, the conveying of morality (or lack thereof), but mayhaps we, the viewers should wait and let this show play out. For me, the final “nit-picking” will come when the whole series is over. Then I would feel justified in finding fault, or lauding praises. For me, now, there’s too much left to go that we DON’T know, and maybe aren’t meant to know just now.
    I loved the whole episode. I thought the battle scenes well thought out, and very well filmed. It was edge of the seat for me. Jon’s running towards Ramsey after his brother had been “feathered” was to me, a young man’s reaction of total anger. All training, all thoughts of battlefield logic were thrown out the window in Jon’s rush. He was righteously pissed! He was blinded by love of Rickon and anger towards the monster who’d just killed his brother. I thought it well played/written.
    As for Sansa, yes. She is a different person/creature who’s being forced to learn how to play the game to survive. I think we’re to believe she is somewhat damaged, yet eternally faithful to her family, and she’s only doing those things that will keep her family in the north. In Winterfel.
    I do not think she hates Jon. I think she knew/knows his limitations regarding Ramsey for sure, and maybe other things.
    It’ll be interesting to see how her relationship plays out with LF.

  • #69914 Reply

    kaisergq

    I think the fact that we are all debating whether this is a finely crafted mystery or inconsistent character writing is telling. I’m used to not knowing the motivations of GOT characters, but lately, Ive had a bit of an off feeling in my gut that tells me this isnt “long game” stuff, but merely fanfic type oversight. Jon’s inconsistency gets a bit of a pass, as he’s just woken up from death, but we all agree we have 2 or three choices on Sansa.

    1. She’s still the idiot she used to be (despite the show heavily marketing her as a dynamic feminist force)
    2. She’s Littlefinger Jr. Throwing her own family/northern supporters under the bus to get what she wants.
    3. Some mix of 1 & 2, where she doesn’t tell Jon about the Arryn army for whatever reason, but truly doesn’t know if/when they will arrive in time. (the way the show frames her arrival, side by side with Littlefinger and smiling like a cross between him and Ramsay seems to discount this)

    I fear episode 10 will not answer any of these questions. I’d say that the show is just not being consistent with who she is, or who it wants her to be. Remember, this is a show that panders to the strange one dimensional fan-service concept that feminism is when female characters get violent revenge. The off feeling in my gut watching Sansa lately is the feeling of suddenly not knowing characters that you thought you understood for six years now.

    This article says it better than I possibly can:

    http://theweek.com/articles/631406/game-thrones-sansa-problem

    • #69967 Reply

      MotorMind

      kaisergq, thx for the link. Indeed, the article says it well.

      I see many responses here, and from fans elsewhere that debate the nature of Sansa’s character.
      I predict that every logical character analysis made will fail, for exactly the same reason that all
      of the theories about Araya’s stabbing in epidsode 7(maybe she is still Jaqen shape shifted??? =] ) failed.
      That reason is that it is not the characters that make the moves, but the writers. and they do it inconsistently.

      We shall now distinguish between 3 different Sansas that exist in the world:

      1. The Sansa a viewer thinks he saw.
      2. The Sansa that was actually portrayed on the screen.
      3. The Sansa that the writers of the show thought they displayed on screen.

      (4). The Sansa of the books, to those who read them, but she is irrelevant for this specific discussion.

      Now, if there is only a contradiction between Sansa 1 and 2, the viewer will have to rethink the character to understand the plot.
      This is why so many forums/youtube channels are dedicated to analyzing characters, so that the curious viewer can be guided to the
      ‘aha’ moment that happens when Sansa 1 and 2 click together. Its fun, like solving a mystery or a puzzle.

      But, how much fun is solving a puzzle if the pieces don’t fit?
      not very.
      This is what happens when there is a contradiction between Sansa 2 and Sansa 3.
      When a riddle is given, especially a hard one, there is usually an unspoken agreement between the riddler and the riddled, that the latter has all the information needed to solve the riddle. The same is done in good storytelling. The listener trusts the teller, and believes that every reasonable question that arises in his mind as he is listening has a reasonable answer by the teller. When too many questions pop up in the listeners mind, that do not get a reasonable answer, the listener, finds that there is only one possible answer to answer all of his previous questions – The story teller is inconsistent.

      When you, as a listener, reach that answer, the suspension of disbelief is broken and you are drawn out of the tale and in to the real world, in which non of the characters exist, but you and the storyteller do. from this point on you can wonder about what made the story inconsistent, you can enjoy the story tellers inconsistencies or you can criticize them, but you CANNOT treat the mysteries as a part of the story land any more, if you want to get anything logical.

      This has clearly happened in Arya’s plot, and this is what i assume is happening now with Sansa’s.

      My original post(that started the thread) took this approach(that Sansa 2 and 3 are contradicted) as a starting point, and built on from there to discuss the problematic morals that are put forward by the writers as a result of the inconsistency. This theme of the writers morals has been mostly overlooked in the replies so far, maybe because many were trying to make Sansa 1 and 2 fit(and assumed that 2 and 3 are the same). If anyone has anything to add to the matter now, it will be welcomed.

      From here on its just some thoughts about scripts and music, and maybe some rants.

      I am partly a musician, classically trained, and though i have not composed a lot, I have had the chance to create musical scores in the past.
      When you write music for a large group, usually the largest is a full orchestra, it is similar to writing a large story with many characters.
      A full orchestra has dozens of players, playing simultaneously to make a complex whole bigger than any of its part. Same goes for a story such as game of throes, which is symphonic in scale no doubt.
      When writing a section of music there are a million and one considerations that run in your mind, and it can get quite messy.

      So, always, ALWAYS, when you finish a piece of music, better yet, a section of it, you go over each of the parts(violins, woodwinds, brass..) and check that each part is playable, coherent and preferably rich enough on its own. You can’t just go over the music as a whole, because you might be blind to the details.

      Usually you assume you are writing for good musicians. Imagine, how would you feel if you were an excellent trumpet player, and some composer just made you play three lines of music, in a piece that takes one hour, and even those lines were not coherent or worse – unplayable? you will be pretty darn frustrated.

      An attention to small details is a must when working with live musicians, otherwise the they will not want to play your music.

      Luckily(or maybe unluckily?) for script writers, the ramification of bad parts(character lines) can some times go undetected by many. Some of the actors, unlike most orchestra players, are too young or inexperienced to see that they’re part in lacking. Some see it, but do not have the power to make it change, and some might just get payed enough to accept whatever is thrown their way and avoid any complications.

      Another difference between an orchestra musician and an actor is that the musician has to live his part, on stage, for the whole of the piece, an actor just comes for a few scenes, and does not really experience his part in the whole until he watches the edited version long after.

      These differences apparently make the script writers less aware of the details and it’s a shame.

      These plot inconsistencies can all be avoided if by the end of every script, for an episode and a whole season together, there will be a person responsible to embody each character(the counterpart to a musical part) on screen an check that their actions are valuable, interesting and logical.

      Let us for example take the role of one of the free folks that fought for Jon and Sansa.
      If i was one, after the battle has ended, i would probably go to Jon or maybe Tormund and ask:
      “Why didn’t you tell us that there was reinforcement coming??”

      Jon would might reply:”I did not know about it”

      me: “How could you not know about it? I saw your sister with the commanding the army”

      Jon: “She did not tell me..”

      Now, as I am a proud free man, and I do not care for the feudal honor system, I will go speak with Sansa and demand to know why did she risk my life and got my friends killed. If I would not get a satisfying reply, I might just decide to kill her on the spot, because I would hold her responsible for my own danger and the deaths of my friends and family. I am pretty sure that this is not where the plot is going. But maybe it should?

      My example is a bit extreme, an no doubt badly written and over simplified, but i hope you get the picture.
      Same should be done by taking the point of view of each main character(past future and present), and one representing character of each of the lesser important players(for example one person of each of the houses that joined the Starks).
      Such a procedure will almost ensure an engaging story.

      just remember – check every part of in the story, and make sure it is VIL:
      valueable, interesting, logical.
      Yep, I totally made these initials up right now.

      And.., this post has gotten way to long
      It’s cause I have and exam tomorrow!

      better stop now if i want to be VIL tomorrow.
      So, here’s an ending:

      THE END

    • #70074 Reply

      Wimsey

      3. Some mix of 1 & 2, where she doesn’t tell Jon about the Arryn army for whatever reason, but truly doesn’t know if/when they will arrive in time. (the way the show frames her arrival, side by side with Littlefinger and smiling like a cross between him and Ramsay seems to discount this)

      Three is not a mix of 1 and 2, but it’s own very distinct thing. Sansa is not telling Jon because she has no idea if the Vale will arrive. She’s also not telling him out of shame. That shame stems from two things. One, Sansa now is kicking herself for not taking LF up on his offer from months before: and when people are doing that, they are reluctant to bring attention to it. Two, Sansa genuinely believed that she would be able to raise a large army of “loyal” Northerners; however, she’s now learned the hard lesson that her family’s actions forfeit much of that loyalty, and she once again is feeling like a foolish girl.

      That’s not idiotic: even very smart people will make this mistake. That is not manipulation: she’s not trying to get some upper hand or put people in positions where they benefit her first and foremost. Instead, it’s just good old fashioned character development that might be atypical of fantasy, but that would fit in well in normal novels and TV shows.

  • #69924 Reply

    Twinfist

    ok, so we got two basic choices here, either:

    1) Sansa is the evil manipulator LittleFinger tried to turn her in to

    or

    2) After 5 years of being completely cut off from her family, she latched onto Jon (event tho they were never close when they lived at Winterfell) as the last living family she has.

    I tend to think its option 2. Sansa has NEVER shown the brains or the backbone to be a grand player in the Game Of Thrones. She is a pawn. She is not a Queen. And let’s not forget that the Starks are all ate up with a deadly case of the “Noble But Stupid” disease. Ned had it, Caitlyn had it, Robb had it, Bran STILL has it, Jon is ate up with dumb, and Sansa has always been an idiot. Arya is the only one with half a brain.

    • #69943 Reply

      Boardshorts85

      Generally agree, but I will point out that Sansa has demonstrated the ability to play the game when she manipulated the Lords Declarant in S4 to help Littlefinger. She wasn’t the stupid little girl there… she made a calculated, manipulative decision and it was the first step towards becoming a bigger player. Not saying she won’t make mistakes in the future, just that she’s demonstrated SOME abilities.

  • #70005 Reply

    Dragonmcmx

    I look at it like this: If Sansa had told Jon about the Vale army, he probably would’ve waited until they arrived. However, in that case Ramsay would’ve stayed inside Winterfell, causing probably more people to die in that siege than did in that battle.

    • #70020 Reply

      Flayed Potatoes

      Sansa specifically told him to wait (though she didn’t tell him why). It’s clear she wanted to wait for them to arrive.

      • #70073 Reply

        Wimsey

        Sansa specifically told him to wait (though she didn’t tell him why). It’s clear she wanted to wait for them to arrive.

        Except that is not what Sansa was doing. She was waiting in hope that they would arrive or at least get to them some indication (advance riders, etc.) that they were actually coming. However, you cannot send ravens to people in the middle of nowhere, and in those conditions, advanced riders might not arrive before the actual army. We would do well to remember that real armies had these problems in the not-too-distant past!

      • #70087 Reply

        Flayed Potatoes

        And Jon can send advance riders to see if the Vale was on the move. Like everyone does in a war.

    • #70024 Reply

      Sean C.

      That really doesn’t follow. If Jon knows about the Vale, they can make contact and plan a strategy to draw Ramsay’s forces out and ambush them.

      • #70072 Reply

        Wimsey

        That really doesn’t follow. If Jon knows about the Vale, they can make contact and plan a strategy to draw Ramsay’s forces out and ambush them.

        But Jon has no way to know about the Vale. The only thing he could have learn is that Sansa wrote to LF. And when Jon gets the whole story, his reaction would be: “The Vale will not be coming.” And others would take a darker view: many would assume that LF was still working with Cersei and thus with the Boltons, and that the Vale would be riding against the Stark forces. Davos, in particular, would have heard enough about LF from Stannis over the years to assume the worst.

        At any rate, Jon never was much of an optimist, and he’s less of one now. He would not sit around waiting for an army that he thinks is not going to come. The only thing we lost would have been Jon trying to hold back anger at Sansa for blowing it months earlier when LF offered his army, and then trying to convince Sansa (and himself!) that he understood why she did it and that he did not hold it against her: because that would be the Jon thing to do.

  • #70035 Reply

    overworkednymph

    -Unless we find out differently it’s likely that Sansa did not know the Vale army was indeed coming. If she knew they were coming she wouldn’t have been terrified the night before the battle and threatened suicide if they lost.

    -I strongly suspect little finger arrived late on purpose and it was all his scheme to come in last minute, not Sansa’s.

    -If Sansa wanted Jon to die or to lose, she wouldn’t have tried to convince him to not play into Ramsey’s hands. Her advice to Jon was to not do what Ramsey wants him to do and he didn’t listen to this sound advice.

    -Sansa knew that Ramsey would never let Rickon live and had already accepted it. Does anyone really think Ramsey would have negotiated even if he thought they had the Vale army?!

    -Does anyone really think Ramsey wouldn’t have killed Rickon if Rickon “zig zagged”?! He would have had all the archers shoot. Rickon was dead no matter what.

    -Sansa should have told Jon about the letter and about Little Finger’s offer to help. But, her distrust is understandable. Also, she doesn’t know Jon’s advisers. She didn’t want to ask Little Finger because she no longer trusts him but after Jon refused to let her reach out to more houses for help, she got desperate and sent the letter.

    -Sansa’s face at end (seemingly) while looking at Jon is disappointment that he didn’t heed her advice and almost got himself killed. Not because she was disappointed he was still alive.

    Just my two cents. We shall soon see how much Sansa actually knew…

    • #70071 Reply

      Wimsey

      I strongly suspect little finger arrived late on purpose and it was all his scheme to come in last minute, not Sansa’s.

      LF would have had little means of timing his arrival so well. After all, the battle could easily have happened the day before or the day after.

      • #70077 Reply

        Looper

        We don’t know where he and the Vale army had been. He could easily have arrived a week early and had scouts watching for when the battle started, then waited so that Jon’s men died and Jon was reliant on him.

    • #70079 Reply

      Looper

      Finally someone with some sense! EXACTLY about Rickon. Ramsay had a volley of arrows waiting to kill Jon if he turned around–so if Jon grabbed Rickon, they both would’ve died trying to retreat. Ramsay actually made a HUGE mistake letting Rickon die. He could’ve got Jon closer and then killed them both.

      Jon wouldn’t have charged to avoid the arrows if he had Rickon safely on his horse. He would’ve attempted to retreat, and likely bit the dust.

      Also agree about LF. I think this will lead into Manderly showing up. Something like:
      “You need my army now, Jon.” – LF
      “Actually, he doesn’t!” – Manderly, bursting into Winterfell like the Kool-Aid man with 2,000 soldiers behind him.

  • #70062 Reply

    movielover40

    I think LF will want to marry Sansa now.

    Lot of great analysis this whole web site. Love it.

    LF always looks out for # 1 – him.

  • #70075 Reply

    Looper

    Plenty of responses, and i’ll be honest, I didn’t read them all, but I was brought up an individual and want my opinion heard despite the fact someone surely has said this already. Welcome to the internet.

    1. We may yet get a reason from Sansa in episode 10, so I REALLY hate all this discussion because there could be a really good reason.

    2. Most plausible reason (though admittedly with some holes): Sansa didn’t know for sure if the Vale was coming. If they did come, she didn’t want Jon telegraphing they had more numbers, because then Ramsay wouldn’t have met them on an open field. If they didn’t, it wouldn’t have made a difference. Actually, if Jon planned for them to come and they didn’t, Ramsay would’ve locked himself up in Winterfell, also expecting more numbers, only to find Jon had to siege Winterfell with his original numbers.

    3. Apparently someone counted, and there were nearly half Jon’s forces left at the end. This means about 1,000 died. Not bad considering the odds and that at least around 5,000 of Ramsay’s died (I don’t remember the exact number he started with, but the end count came up somewhere around 300 left in that shield circle).

    4. Robb played a sacrifice move. He sent 2,000 men to their deaths. If Sansa was being strategic (see #2 above) how is this any different? Cause Jon was there? Sansa’s grown colder. Before, she wasn’t exactly close to Jon anyway. I’m sure she wasn’t praying for his death, but she certainly expected it was possible and I don’t think that betrays her character by any means. Her strategic move cost less lives than Robb’s and had a greater outcome (winning Winterfell over just moving troops secretly, which is what Robb was doing). She’s no more a monster than he was.

    • #70126 Reply

      Wimsey

      2. Most plausible reason (though admittedly with some holes): Sansa didn’t know for sure if the Vale was coming.

      There are no holes in this idea. On the other hand, there is no way that Sansa could know that LF was coming. It was just a hope: and Jon would have been even less willing to trust to hope than would Sansa. Other members of their camp would not have been willing to trust LF to join their side, too.

      And, let’s not forget the human element. Sansa turned down LF’s aid months before because: 1) she was furious at him, and, 2) she mistakenly believed that you could go without feeding your dogs and yet still expect their loyalty. Now, she would have to admit her huge and probably catastrophic mistake to everyone else: and that just magnifies the shame.

  • #70084 Reply

    ericsmosmeric

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fiPPpWPc0g I think this deleted scene will clear it all up for you

    • #70105 Reply

      MotorMind

      Thanks ericmosmeric, this explains everything!
      Why did they cut it??
      And here I was, complaining about the writers, when CLEARLY the editors were responsible!
      You must have some good connections to have gotten this original recording. Well done. =] =]

  • #70201 Reply

    Piper

    My theory must be VERY unpopular because no one has mentioned it yet. I think Sansa let thousands die because SHE wants to be the Stark that rules Winterfell.

    She said it herself, Rickon was as good as dead in Ramsay’s hands and was the true heir since Bran is MIA. Jon, cute and testosterone-filled as he is, is still no Stark. Even though she’s been married off twice to other houses, Sansa knows she can claim Winterfell for herself, especially with a strong marriage alliance. And guess who that might be with?

    Littlefinger.

    See everyone thinks she doesn’t want to play the game with Littlefinger but I think she does. Yes she hates him for his giving of her to Ramsay but it’s a brokenhearted hate that can only be healed by her capturing him. Remember that she knows HIS weakness and it’s HER. To successfully play the Game of Thrones she needs power and with the North and the Vale successfully secured, she will be the Queen of almost half of Westeros.

    Littlefinger helps her get what she wants. Jon does not. Jon is a bastard and a half-brother she cannot marry. He doesn’t have power or pedigree. He will NOT be her choice if she wants to play the Game. She will choose Littlefinger. In fact, I think she already has. We’ll see tonight…

  • #72170 Reply

    Margaret Choffel

    You guys are over analyzing it.. Sansa has issues, Jon has issues, but if Sansa wants to be queen, then she bloody well should act like one… She wants her commander, Jon to take out Ramsey and take back Winterfell… They don’t have the men to do that.. They have run out of the usual places to get them, what they have they have… Winter is coming, they don’t have enough men nor do they have the resources for a long siege… So Jon has two options as commander, do the best that he can with what he has or withdraw… Sansa bitches at him stating what he already knows, they DON’T HAVE ENOUGH MEN! But here they are, what does she want him to do? Wait… Okay but for a number of reasons some already stated, that isn’t a good option.. Okay, you’d think she’d tell her commander that there is another possible source for reinforcements, not the best choice maybe but the dick in charge may come to their aid if she asks… Does she say anything to her commander about that? No…. Later when they make their battle plans, she sits in, says nothing, then whines after the fact that no one asked her… So Jon asks, and other than saying Ramsey is a cunning lad and don’t underestimate him, she has nothing useful to add other than she knows nothing about battle tactics and again nothing about her sending for the Knights of the Vale… Bottom line? There is no excuse for her not telling Jon, none! It doesn’t matter about her trust issues, get a therapist, so she didn’t know if they’d come or not? Jon still has to know because it is a vital piece of the strategic puzzle he was trying to put together to fight a battle.. So happens they got lucky, the Knights of the Vale arrived in the nick of time, but it was luck, not any great planning on her part as a leader..

    Yeah, Jon did let his emotions get away from him, what was he thinking? He wasn’t, and most likely he was only thinking of trying to save Rickon and not that his whole army was going to follow him… But even if he just let Rickon die, the chances that the battle would have come out differently with the Vale are slim to none…

    Back to Sansa, she doesn’t even give Rickon’s body a glance… What’s up with that? And sorry the smirk on her face at the end reminded me a little too much of Cersie.

  • #85275 Reply

    whatever

    This thread kind of annoys me because no one seems to really understand what happened. Sansa was angry with LF for his bolton plan. The following things happened.

    -Peter Baelish told Sansa, the army was already at moat cailin. Sansa refused his help out of PRIDE.

    -Sansa Tries to gather her own army(with her daddy’s credit card name) but fails to do so.

    -She realises her mistake of refusing LF’s help.

    – She wants the knights of the vale to join them. However, at this point she has already turned them away. She is afraid to tell jon because she has no idea if her actions are reversible anymore. Instead she urges him to wait.

    -Eventually the Knights of the Vale arrive in time to save the day(somewhat). This is why she is smiling in that scene.

    -Afterwards she has no doubt in her mind that Jon should lead house stark.

    The irony in this episode is that she tells Jon “No one can protect me, no one can protect anyone”. Then she continues to prove her own point, by nearly getting everyone killed”

    • #85446 Reply

      Wimsey

      This thread kind of annoys me because no one seems to really understand what happened.

      I agree with you, except that a few of us do understand the situation! As you note, Sansa was certain that the Stark name would get people to blindly follow her. She did not understand that loyalty in humans is no different from loyalty in dogs: if you don’t feed them, then they turn on you. At that point, the Starks had not fed their liegemen well in a while: they’d led them into two wars in 20 years, with the second one being disastrous; a Stark bastard had just let the Wildlings invade Westeros; and the sole remaining Stark daughter seemed to be marrying as many of the Stark enemies as possible.

      The other thing that people just do not seem to get is how limited means of communications were. Sansa had no way of knowing if LF got her message or if he was going to come. If she had told Jon, then what was he to do? His ability to learn what LF was doing was extremely limited. Scouts going back and forth would have taken weeks: and odds were good that they would have missed the Vale Army, anyway. And they could not remain camped there indefinitely: an immobile army goes through provisions rapidly, and even in a unified army, discipline and moral rapidly deteriorate; as we saw, things were tense early between the Wildlings and Westerosi. So, if Sansa tells Jon, then all he can do is say: “Well, I hope that they get here tomorrow: but we cannot sit around waiting for something that probably won’t happen.”

      Of course, the fact that so many fans insist on viewing the events of a season as happening over 10 hours instead of over most of a year is a big part of the problem, too. Nobody is jetpacking around anywhere: we just leaf through the calendar.

      • #86923 Reply

        Sean C.

        The other thing that people just do not seem to get is how limited means of communications were. Sansa had no way of knowing if LF got her message or if he was going to come. If she had told Jon, then what was he to do? His ability to learn what LF was doing was extremely limited. Scouts going back and forth would have taken weeks: and odds were good that they would have missed the Vale Army, anyway. And they could not remain camped there indefinitely: an immobile army goes through provisions rapidly, and even in a unified army, discipline and moral rapidly deteriorate; as we saw, things were tense early between the Wildlings and Westerosi. So, if Sansa tells Jon, then all he can do is say: “Well, I hope that they get here tomorrow: but we cannot sit around waiting for something that probably won’t happen.”

        That’s total nonsense.

        Even if you ignore the weeks of Sansa not telling him leading up to their final conversation, which doesn’t make any sense anyway (they have basically the same argument in episode 607 where she’s trying to convince him not to march on Winterfell and take more time to gather men), there is literally nothing to lose by giving him this information. Sure, maybe the scouts won’t find them (maybe they aren’t coming at all), but any possibility of making contact with the Valemen is better than none at all. Any commander given that information would immediately withdraw south to try to link up with the superior force.

  • #85689 Reply

    Alice

    Happy Holliday,

    1. Sansa never told Jon about the Blackfish when LF told her and then she lied to him about how she knew.
    2. Sansa told LF to go back to Mott Catlynn which is odd since she should have told him to return to the Vale don’t you think?

    3. LF used the plan that he discussed using with Cercie when he asked her(Cercie) to make him Warden of the North to go taken back the north from the Bolton’s for betraying her by marrying Sansa-the Joffrey murderer. He was going to let Stanus and the Bolton armies kill each other and then LF would sweep in with the fresh Vale army and wipe out what was left of the winner. LF could have sent word he was coming but he didn’t so Jon’s army and the Bolton’s would start the battle. Who knows, if Sansa hadn’t relented and re-opened that door to his obsession with her he most likely would have waited for the Bolton army to wipe them out before attacking the Bolton army. LF wasn’t going to pass up being Warden of the North.

  • #86738 Reply

    KL

    I think a lot of people have not absorbed what Sansa has both learned and endured at the hands of LF.

    Sansa knows that LF has the spine to kill a king (ie, Joffrey) with what seems to be no fear of retribution.

    She also knows that he has very powerful friends (ie, he told her that Lady Olenna helped him kill Joffrey and Lysa Arryn told her about their plot to kill
    Jon Arryn and frame the Lannisters before LF threw her through the moon door). These friends have helped him in his schemes to inflict pain on the ruling
    families of the realm. She has also seen his cold and calculated side, as he has murdered people that have helped him, right in front of her face (Dontos).

    Finally, she has been a victim of LF’s as he convinced her to marry someone that would torture her – he denied knowing this about Ramsay, but she knows him better than that now.

    Sansa DOES NOT TRUST LF – period. She could have been killed at the hands of Ramsay and LF orchestrated this! If you put yourself in her shoes, she probably was leary to ask for LF’s help in the end, not only because she rejected him earlier, but because his army in their land posed a serious risk to the Stark army! LF is a cheat and a liar – don’t forget that. He has also been hostile to Sansa by offering her to a psychopath and Sansa had every reason to suspect that he could turn on her. She only asked for help from LF after she had no hope to win against Ramsay and was willing to kill herself if they lost! What I got from the last 2 episodes of season 6 is that she looks afraid of LF and she should be. The Stark army is very depleted right now (all of the large house armies of the north have lost many men up until this point) and the Vale army has not fought in a single battle until the battle of the bastards, which they won handily.

    Both Sansa and Jon will need to keep their eyes open around LF even if he declares for their house. Sansa knows this intimately, but Jon does not. She told Jon not to trust LF at the end of the season – let’s see if he listens to her advice now.

    • #86914 Reply

      Wimsey

      He has also been hostile to Sansa by offering her to a psychopath and Sansa had every reason to suspect that he could turn on her.

      Littlefinger had no way of knowing that Ramsay was a psychopath. Remember, little of what happens in the North reaches the ears of people in Kings Landing in the first place, and most of that would be so distorted by Grimmsian mutation that someone as smart as LF would know to take it with huge grains of salt. This gets doubly compounded with the Boltons: they keep most of their doings secret from the rest of the North, it seems. (Remember, Robb Stark had no problem with Ramsay leading a force to “liberate” Winterfell, and clearly none of the other Northern lords saw this as a red-flag.)

      Now, it is understandable that Sansa would blame LF because that is just human nature. However, Sansa has had another big dose of reality over the last year: as she learned, if you do not feed the dogs, then they bite you! Baelish’s plan really should have worked: most of the time, Ramsay would have been like Jon Snow, i.e., desperately eager to demonstrate that he, too, could be just as gracious, wise, etc., as the nobility pretend that they are.

      What could be the bigger issue is: what happens when they learn that Jon is not Ned’s son? Baelish was wrong about the Northerners preferring a legitimate daughter to a bastard son: but, then, Baelish does not understand Northerners very well. Still, he might be right in that they would prefer a legitimate daughter to a bastard nephew spawned via an aunt rather than an uncle! (Of course, Jon’s actions during last season and whatever he does this season might have just won over people, too.)

      Sadly, I agree that Sansa is the least noble of the Starks.

      Ironically, I would state that she is the most noble of the Starks. Of course, that is like saying “slept like a baby”: people use it for “I slept great” when it really should be used for “I woke up screaming every two hours.”

      • #86922 Reply

        Sean C.

        Baelish’s plan really should have worked: most of the time, Ramsay would have been like Jon Snow, i.e., desperately eager to demonstrate that he, too, could be just as gracious, wise, etc., as the nobility pretend that they are.

        No, it wouldn’t have. Baelish’s plan was idiotic regardless of Ramsay’s personal qualities, which is why the whole plotline was dumb.

  • #86813 Reply

    thewolfgirl

    Sadly, I agree that Sansa is the least noble of the Starks.

    I am part of you now. Ramsay’s statement (prediction?) is chilling.

  • #87615 Reply

    Stark Raven’ Rad

    ( TheWolfGirl, if you haven’t seen it, take a look at what I wrote in your Arya’s Future topic.)

    Of course Sansa’s the least noble of the Starks. In the book, she even betrayed Ned by running to Cersei and telling her his plans. As early as the King’s Road, she sided with Joffrey when he held Arya at swordpoint, never mind later when Robert was questioning them all afterwards. Sansa’s always been selfish, snobbish, naive, and unwise in her decisions. She protected Littlefinger after he killed Lysa, knowing he was also the murderer of Ser Dontos and Joffrey. She’s now beholden to LF, probably because she’d wanted to get revenge on Ramsay, re-take Winterfell, and be proclaimed Lady of Winterfell. Jon’s life, or Davos’s or Tormund’s or Wun-Wun’s or the thousands who died probably did not matter one jot to her. She had even written off her baby brother. Worse, assuming LF remains at Winterfell through Season 7, she’s now endangering everyone there despite knowing what he is and is capable of. Ned had complained that Kings Landing was a vipers’ nest. No other Stark is base enough or stupid enough to allow the chief viper to be within striking distance in her home. It’s asking for trouble, and if the leaks are to be believed, trouble or worse will be the result.

  • #87659 Reply

    Wimsey

    Worse, assuming LF remains at Winterfell through Season 7, she’s now endangering everyone there despite knowing what he is and is capable of.

    Ah, the Catch-22. If Sansa does not send her desperate request for aid to LF, then her armies lose the Battle of the Bastards. Having played von Blücher there, it is now going to be difficult to remove Littlefinger. Moreover, Sansa might very well be feeling usurped by Jon: he is, after all, a bastard, and he should not come before her in succession. Sansa’s fight is not against the White Walkers: they are nothing to her outside of the sorts of fairy tales that did not interest her. Her concern might well become restoring true Starks to power.

    One thing that Sansa almost certainly has learned by now is that you cannot be too idealistic about your allies. All of Sansa’s major blunders have come from being overly idealistic in general: at some point, she will learn the general rule rather than the specific one, but she’s learned this specific lesson at least.

    All of this stated, there is one huge thing that we do not know about this year: what is the story? Last year’s story was about conflicted choices about alliances at all levels. I really doubt that we are getting the same story this year. Sansa will have the same general sort of “damned if I do or don’t” options this year that Jon, Daeny, Arya, etc., will have: but the information we have about what they are doing is too scant to figure out what that might be.

    • #87668 Reply

      Sean C.

      All of Sansa’s major blunders have come from being overly idealistic in general

      Nope. In fact, her key error with Littlefinger was excessive pragmatism, i.e., keeping him around in the first place in 408 rather than turning him in and then going along with what he said.

  • #90243 Reply

    Lauren

    Yeah, I think that was a big faux-pas on their part. But, Ramsay was also beaten bloody. The main “yard” was a mess. When we see Jon beat him to a pulp, he stops. Next thing we see the main area cleared, Jon looking decent, and Sansa asking where he was. She knew that he had to have been put somewhere. Perhaps Jon told her they put him in the kennel, knowing full well the dogs were starving. Perhaps he was in a dungeon and Sansa had the idea to move him there and Jon said ‘sure, after all, he said he starved them for a week’. I agree it could have been done better, but there had been some time that had lapsed between when he was beaten and when Sansa let him die.

  • #90446 Reply

    silverstrand

    I just rewatched the battle of the bastards and paid close attention to Sansa’s reactions (in this clip at 1:15,1:51, 2:29, and 2:37).

    At 1:15 and 1:51 she looks like she’s making a hard decision, such as letting her half-brother die so she can win the battle single handedly (with LF). It looks like a bloodbath in the circle scene.

    At 2:29 and 2:37 she sees John running after Ramsey at her expression changes into one of nearly shock and disappointment. As if she is surprised John is still alive.

    I think she thought John was a goner, knowing he would do something stupid, then she would swoop in with the Knights at the end of the battle to clean up the pieces and rule in the North alone.

    Or maybe not…

  • #90449 Reply

    Wimsey

    At 2:29 and 2:37 she sees John running after Ramsey at her expression changes into one of nearly shock and disappointment. As if she is surprised John is still alive.

    There is no reason to project “disappointment” onto Sansa’s expression. I would go with fear: Jon’s survived this much and now the damned fool is leaving his army behind to pursue Ramsay back to Winterfell with just two companions.

    Alternatively, it’s a look of “oh, he’s soooo heroic”: her expression could be interpreted as a “dreamy” far-away one.

Reply To: So, Sansa just let thousands die?
Your information: