Not to overstate things … but season 6 is going to be kind of important. After last season’s tumultuous ratings, season 6 will be Game of Thrones‘ opportunity to rectify the aspects of the show that garnered vehement criticism, such as its depiction of violence. Now, I generally agree that brutality can be necessary for social commentary, but only if done well. The difference between using violence for shock value and using it to explore the darkest aspects of human nature and society is understanding that the effects of violence long outlast the violence itself. There is no better example of this than Theon Greyjoy, formerly Reek, formerly Ironborn.
Through Theon’s story, Game of Thrones is in an interesting position, and under a certain obligation, to do what few televisions shows (or books, movies or plays for that matter) have done: depict the long term effects of trauma. Because the way people perceive fictional characters says a lot about the way they perceive- and consequently treat- people in real life. Thus every time I hear that Theon “snapped out of it” in the season 5 finale, I die a little inside.
Granted, this perception is likely due to Game of Thrones‘ categorization as fantasy as much as to societal ignorance of mental health. Brainwashing or other forms of mind control are a common plot device in fantasy and science fiction but it’s almost always accomplished through fantastical, usually reversible, means with no real-world relevance. It’s remarkable (and apparently confusing), therefore, that in a show with dragons, ice zombies and shadow babies, the one instance of brainwashing is brutally grounded in realism. Theon’s not under the Imperius Curse, he didn’t look into Dracula’s eyes or swallow a magic potion. He wasn’t injected with tracker jacker venom or forced to stare at a screen with subliminal messages flashing across it. He was tortured over and over again until he learned to avoid pain by doing, saying and, to some extent, thinking what Ramsay wanted him to.
In Myke Cole’s essay, “Art Imitates War: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in ‘A Song of Ice and Fire,'” the fantasy writer and military veteran argues that Theon suffers from Condition Black PTSD, “a defenseless posture of frozen panic or denial” that manifests in self-destructive coping mechanisms. Though Cole draws evidence exclusively from Martin’s novels, his characterization of Theon as a man who “sinks fully into self-pity, terror and paralysis [and] emerges from this morass as the stinking, haunted Reek, lickspittle and lackey to his torturer …” seems equally applicable to the show’s portrayal.
“Few could stand up to torture of the kind Bolton inflicts upon Theon, and it leaves him with a grim choice between death or the loss of his identity. Condition Black becomes the framework he embraces to cling to life … The Reek identity is the best example of a permanent Condition Black that I have ever encountered in fiction,” he writes, calling it, “The ultimate and most horrifying outcome of PTSD, the fate of a person utterly incapable of coping with the traumas he faces.”
Needless to say, there is no “snapping out” of that.
Game of Thrones may be a fantasy series but it has established a character with an existing mental disorder and is thus obligated to depict that disorder authentically. That means incorporating its long term effects into future seasons. So, go on, Benioff and Weiss. Show us Theon struggling to function without Ramsay and suffering from nightmares, triggers and flashbacks. Present us with the reality of what has been done to him.
To do otherwise and write post-season 5 Theon as merely a thinner, humbler version of his second season self, would not only negate the integrity of Theon’s arc. It would disservice real-world trauma victims.
Of course, some would argue that Theon, like the rest of Game of Thrones, is fictional and therefore placing real-world importance on his mental health is misdirected earnestness. The truth is, however, that though Theon may not be real, the impact his story has on viewers is.
In “Art Imitates War,” Cole admits that Theon’s story in A Dance With Dragons “nearly brought [him] to tears” because it so accurately captured the experiences of traumatized service members he’d met. According to the Independent, at a press conference in London, Alfie Allen described meeting a fan who connected to his character on a deeply personal level.
“She pulled me aside and said ‘I get beaten by my husband. He hits me in places that no one ever sees, in the way that you receive abuse in Game of Thrones, it’s not pathetic and it gives me strength’,” Allen said. “I have to be honest I was not expecting her to say something like that. It wasn’t a crazy, weird encounter at all. In fact it kind of made me realize that I do have responsibilities as an actor.”
Characters matter. Stories matter. For better or worse, Westeros is a land plagued with the same societal and personal ills as our world. One should not confuse “fantastical” with “irrelevant” nor underestimate how intensely people relate to the denizens of a fictional work. The experiences and traumas of these characters do have real-world significance. They should be treated as such.
I hate to break it to you guy but last season had the highest ratings the show has ever gotten. So can we quit pretending the show is in trouble already?
Nonbook watchers were hyped up about GOT in season 2 and 3 but i dont get that feeling anymore reading their comments.
Dany has gone from heroin in their eyes to them wishing the most horrible death to her for her stupidity.
The ratings are high but the show has lost something in the way …. Its not on the same level anymore as Braking Bad was from the begining to the end.
I am tired of people telling artists what is “appropriate.” Let them tell their story their way. If you are so sensitive you can’t deal with a FAKE story about FAKE people doing FAKE things within that FAKE universe, then you are bringing that with you…
Theon is one of the characters in the series whose future I have the most difficulty predicting. Where he is in the books right now, it kind of feels like his story is approaching its ending, but I don’t really get that sense from the show. But I could never have guessed, after A Clash of Kings, that anything like his A Dance with Dragons storyline lay in the future (indeed, I initially thought he was dead when I read it).
GeekFurious,
All this article does is point out the obvious: that any show that aspires to be a serious drama that explores the human condition has to actually address Theon’s trauma in an ongoing manner.
Not a Nice Person,
thats true.. maybe the writer meant reviews instead of ratings?
Season 5’s ratings were the highest for GOT and the illegal downloads were also at their highest. If the season had declined in ratings then there would have been no chance in hell that HBO’s big bosses would have wanted an 8th season and pushed the D&D to it.
Considering the insanely high ratings and the huge acclaim actors got from last season, i would say that season 5 was a huge success all around with few noticeable issues in the plots that hopefully D&D have noted (how could they note when every single GOT fan is throwing those issues in their faces at every opportunity)
GeekFurious,
Judging by that response, I’m almost positive you didn’t actually read what Petra wrote.
Oh wow I get to do the Hodor! thing
Good discussion though, I am amazed that GRRM as an American especially is able to look past typical propaganda narratives that are infused into writing and media (Hollywood) especially and explore power dynamics so realistically
From the perspective of torture, in the books Reek and Jeyne Poole shall be fascinating
Same with Sansa/Alayne in the books because LF is highly manipulative and brutal and probably bears some responsibility as to how Lysa Tully turned out I suspect.
Same with Sweetrobin
In terms of the show, people have slagged off “rapegate” but like Slavers Bay power dynamics it has to be understood differently – book Ramsay and “daddy issues” show Ramsay are quite different
In terms of the rape scene, it could be understood once you see the whole series, in particular the Roose announcing the match, Fat Walda “I’m pregnant” dinner, the wedding night and then the presentation of the flayed servant and more specifically the conversation that led up to it together
That is to say that Ramsay is a bastard, given legitimacy only by another bastard and the fact that the Boltons hold the North only under threat of arms and terror. In this respect their only hope lies through a tenuously the Stark bloodline they have usurped (hence Fake Arya).
From this perspective doing the Lord Cerwyn thing at the same time as announcing the match was great writing
In terms of the show given they are doing real Sansa this means the power (of legitimacy) lies with Sansa and more specifically the legitimacy of her name and her reputation of beauty aka her background.
Of course then Ramsay needs to try and assert his own power in the relationship which he does through brutalising her and locking her up and attempting to “break her” as it was
Given this comes on the back of Joffrey and LF putting her in that position after having “saved her”, it shall be very curious to see how the Sansa/Reek roadshow comes along given they have both experienced deep significant torture (physical and psychological), and it can serve as a good expression of how they have become mentally twisted (as society has) through the war
It will indeed be terrible writing if they merely “snap out of it”. Like Arya the Starks are set up as likeable charismatic people, but I reckon they will become quite twisted by books and series end, Jaimie the opposite
This article is great. Thank you for writing this. If the show doesn’t depict PTSD in a realistic manner in season 6, they will be doing all survivors of PTSD a huge disservice. I really hope the show can pull it off.
This show is still immensely popular worldwide, it’s had higher ratings than BB ever did considering that wasn’t on HBO but AMC. BB never went above 3 million viewers before the last 8 episodes while GOT, on HBO thus way less accessible than BB, just broke 8 million.
It’s also the highest rated season among critics and viewers, only some book readers have stopped liking it.
When I want to see an accurate depiction of how people who suffer mental health traumas deal with the long term affects over a number of years, I definitely tune into Game of Thrones.
Let’s put aside the fact that if we were being “real” about all the shitty things these characters have had to endure and witness over the course of this story, they’d all be comatose in the fetal position in the corner somewhere unable to function.
Count me as someone who doesn’t need to see Theon suffer PTSD symptoms in every scene he’s in until the end of the show just so we can be reminded that violence is bad.
I agree with this article. GRRM has been saying from the beginning that he doesn’t want to sugar-coat the aftermath of war and all of the negative effects that can linger even for the side that won. People lose so much in those circumstances and in Theon’s case it was his sense of self. And even though he’s away from Ramsey now, he would never just “snap out of it” completely. The Theon chapter from TWOW attests to that.
King Tommen,
Theon’s treatment is extreme even within the show/novels. It would be an extreme disservice to sweep that under the rug, and at least per the TWOW Theon chapter, GRRM isn’t.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
I’m getting a completely opposite impression after this season ended. Almost everywhere i look in comment sections (aside from youtube’s obvious trolls) and pple i speak to who watch the show, all i see are pple who are thrilled at the show for bringing Dany and Tyrion together and now are rooting for them to take the throne with Dany as queen and Tyrion as hand.
Dany’s issues is not because of the show but because of the mess that was Dance of Dragons. The last book is the reason Dany lost half of her supporters.
Having said that im not sure where u are getting that nonbook viewers hate her now. With the exception of 4 or 5 trolls on youtube (i can even name them lol) that fill up her every one of her vids with hate and insults, shes currently still one of the most popular characters; right up there with Tyrion and Jon. Almost every vid reaction i have seen on youtube has the person reacting to GOT praising her and fangirling/fanboying over her scenes especially in the second half of season 5, she has thousands of positive comments on youtube with her scenes being some of the most watched out of all characters, and if u read GOT articles on news websites like Dailymail/USweekly/People/TMZ/PerezHilton/etc u will see that most pple commenting are massive fans of hers. Only yesterday when GRRM was trending on facebook, i scrolled through the comments and literally just about every other comments says that Dany and Tyrion are their fav, or that Dany and Tyrion will be the power couple.
Dany was done much much better on the show than she was described in the last couple of books especially Dance of Dragons. Fans did disagree with her choices in the first 4 episodes or so of last season but D&D saved her from doing a character-suicide that happened in the last book by bringing Tyrion into the mold. If anything, after this season, i have noticed that there are more people wanting Dany and Tyrion to take over Westeros.
The fact that the ratings continue to increase belies this conclusion! Now, the initial excitement is gone: but Thrones is now an old TV show. However, initial excitement has given way to general interest: and so long as that continues, the show is fine.
So, Not a Nice Person has the right of it: there was nothing “tumultuous” about last year’s ratings and there is nothing “wrong” with the show that needs to be fixed.
That written, it is pretty clear that GRRM and B&W are going somewhere with this. Dragons sees the primary protagonists run through the shredder, and the show did that quite well. (It even expanded it by running Sansa through the shredder, even though she is essentially absent in Crows/Dragons.)
So, the characters have been built up and broken down. It’s not just Theon (who is not one of the “primary” primary characters), but also Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya, Cersei and (now) Sansa. Jaime and Bran already had been broken down a bit. Given that the over-arching story is coming from how these characters evolve (particularly the Big 5), this has got to be heading somewhere. And recovery from traumatic experiences (castration, sexual assault, assassination attempts, massive depression, public humiliation, maiming, blinding) almost certainly has to be a key. There has been just too much of it for it to be random. (Bastards, dwarfs and cripples, after all!)
I’m hoping they show the emotional scars and repercussions of Sansa’s repeated rapes too. I truly hope that Theon and Sansa run into someone who can protect them, because they won’t be safe out there on their own. A beautiful girl and a broken, barely functioning man? They’d be dead within days without help. (Brienne, Pod, the Gravedigger/Hound, anyone)
This is a very good article. When someone asks me what I think was the most brutal scene in the show, I always answer, it’s the moment when Theon breaks. It is so extremely real and sad. I’m glad, we don’t have that in the books (only as flashbacks), because I couldn’t bare reading that from Theons POV. And for the same reasons this article mentions, I always shake my head when people predict that Theon will sit the sea chair in the end. He will never recover and death for him might be a mercy (and I’m saying that because he is a fictional character and not a real person, I of course don’t think people should be killed after such a trauma).
Sansa was no more absent from those books than her siblings (well, she and Bran were less present than Arya), and in the books they have paralleled arcs, which are not about being broken down — in all cases, that has already happened; it’s about them being in places of comparative safety (which they’ve lacked in the preceding books) and learning new skills from mentors of varying degrees of questionable morality (as well as, in the girls’ cases, grappling with major issues of suppressed identity).
“I GET beaten by my husband”? Wow, I hope he phrased that wrong.
Sean C.,
I think it depends on what people mean by “sweeping it under the rug”. He’s obviously not going to ever be the old Theon again. However, nightmares and him snivelling and crying all the time isn’t my idea of great TV. We all know he’s been through the ringer, let his story progress without having him completely sidelined by trauma is all.
Really, that’s your first thought after reading this well thought-through piece?
Oh well, addressing your criticism: She said “tumultuous”, not “disastrous” or “abysmal”, and indeed the ratings, while the highest of the show, did have the greatest ups and downs.
Lookie HERE.
She didn’t say the ratings were low, just that they were uneven. Is it a case of “people see what they expect to see”? Are you so predisposed to read someone saying the ratings were bad that you see it even if it isn’t actually there?
King Tommen,
I don’t think the author was saying he needed to be “sidelined by trauma” either. But we need to see him experiencing the lingering effects of his treatment.
I really really wish people would give the whole “this show is ctd” thing a rest already the whole idea is just an invention of butthurt Sansa fans.
Yeah that’s the thing people often don’t get about Brienne journeys in AFfC, she is taking the reader on a guided tour of the aftermath of war and its effects on society
The Saltpans is similar with the remnants of Vargo Hoats company, the woman who gets mauled by Biter has no hate for the attackers, it’s for the people who locked themselves in and everyone else out of the local Keep (aka the nobility)
This is why I love the Sparrows and High Sparrow storyline so much in the books, under such conditions people often look to the other major institution for recourse, in Medieval times it was the Church/religious establishment as a counter force to the nobility (and vice versa I might add) and there’s time if we think of the Papal States where the lines are blurred between the Pope as figurehead and monarch
Today this function is served through the Judiciary, where people often look to the Supreme Court or Constitution to restrain the Executive Branch of Government and like the Pope with investiture we saw in 2000 they were somewhat “Kingmakers”
The show stumbled a bit, they were exploring things nicely with Polliver and his men at the inn, and then the farmer who Arya and the Hound meet with his simple relgiously inspired courtesy. They really needed to introduce the Sparrow movement in that sequence and then have them show up in force in S5
Of course the HS is a form of revolutionary, thing with revolutions is that they often over-correct and swing too far in the other direction and become just as oppressive but in different ways. In terms of religious theocracies they meddle deeply in peoples personal lives and stifle variety of expression in a way nobility who are mainly interested in tax collection do not
By the end of it all everyone will be screwed up
Great off-season article it has to be said
The other issue is that Theon is a 2nd tier protagonist. Yeah, he’s important: but much less so than Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya, Bran & Sansa. However, they all have (or will have) their own comparable traumas to overcome. (Sundays are one of my “Of course Jon is coming back” days: right now, only Monday is a “Jon is dead” day for me.)
So, this will be a more general issue. And, who knows: maybe Winter is a story about “coming back from the dead” in one way or another? (That doesn’t seem like a GRRM type of story, but we will see.)
The ratings that really show us how the series is doing are the beginning and the end. Remember, everyone who watched the final episode watched all of the previous ones. However, a lot of those viewers did not watch episodes until after the “Ratings Window” closed. After all, people are busy and generally watch TV when it is convenient for them to do so. A show becomes “can’t miss” only when viewing it late means missing the big punch lines: and when a show tells a story over an entire season, then the big punch lines are given at the outset and in the last couple of episodes.
Had “Sansagate” or anything like that been real, then the ratings for the finale would have been appreciably lower than the ratings of the opener. That didn’t happen, and that tells us that people didn’t stop watching.
Wimsey,
What i meant to say people had expectations as to where the show was going and how fast it would get there but like the books it had fallen short to that.
If the books got entangled up in the side stories it didnt mean the show had to follow the pattern especially since everyone (besides the westeros fanatics) was complaining about the last 2 books and everyone could see trouble coming after we got past SOS material.
I think that readers got that. I think that the problem that people had with it was that it didn’t contribute to a story in any real way. B&W have pretty judiciously cut stuff that does not contribute to the story, and as Brienne really does not work as a protagonist anyway, that stuff had to go.
I wouldn’t be so dismissive. Sansagate was real. People reacted. Personally I agree that like 99.9% of viewers still watched. But that doesn’t erase the very real reactions and the accountability of the show. We can’t dismiss critiques out of hand simply because ratings are good cumulatively. I mean shows like Two and a Half Men got strong ratings forever and that show was crap on many levels.
Wimsey,
She didn’t say “viewer numbers” either, but “ratings”, and however many people watched it later, the ratings themselves WERE uneven.
We could attribute the uneven ratings to some degree to dissatisfaction. People were busy during the other seasons, too, but ratings were less uneven. Maybe too many people have gone from “Oh, I MUST see it tonight!!!” to “Oh well, I guess I’ll watch it at some point. I do want to know where they end up eventually.” – which would indicate sinking interest. But that’s speculation, so I’m not going to claim that that’s the reason.
Just pointing out that Petra still didn’t say anything wrong by calling the “ratings” “tumultuous.”
Ah, well, the pace might have lagged a bit. However, I think that this also is an illusion created by the fact that the closing episodes of each season tend to be very high impact. Season 5 managed that again in Episodes 8-10. And that means that the “middle” episodes next year will seem sort of slow as they set up whatever Winter’s story is.
That is going to contribute a lot to sagging ratings in middle episodes. Many people probably have caught on that the most satisfying way to watch these sorts of series is to watch the middle episodes later right before the “crux” episodes.
Very nice piece, welcome Petra! 🙂
Not a Nice Person,
“tumultuous” doesn’t mean low. It means wildy varying. And season 5’s ratings definitely were varying wildly (not saying it was directly caused by the shown material or that it’s necessarily a cause for worry).
Otherwise I agree with the post by Petra. And Reek/Theon wouldn’t be the only person going through lasting mental hardship. Sansa is there with him, she keeps lapsing in passive states since her initial encounters with Joffrey.
Wimsey,
Agreed. I don’t think that there will be any “recovery” for these characters. I like your use of the word “shredded,” as nothing shredded can ever be near to the same as it was whole. A tear can be mended; shredding is beyond repair. They are forever changed. The question is: what will their continued survival look like? This is why I didn’t object to the handling of the Sansa rape scene by showing it through Theon’s face. You’d think that there was nothing left of Theon in Reek, yet the “been there” pain on his face shows that Theon is indeed still there and crying out at the suffering of another human being. Will Sansa survive as well as Theon has, or better? Can they now help each other survive through shared horror?
I don’t need to see textbook PTSD to recognize that this kind of suffering exists in the real world, forever changing the suffering person and sending waves of consequence throughout society. Each instance of human suffering reduces us all. It doesn’t have to be a certain kind of suffering.
We cannot attribute uneven ratings to dissatisfaction: that predicts declining ratings. Uneven but not declining ratings indicate that people (for whatever reasons) recognize that it is not as important to watch some episodes immediately. Given that people (particularly the sort that subscribe to HBO) tend to be busy, and given that people now understand that the show tells a story over a season rather than one per episode, we expect the ratings to be very uneven throughout the year. Yes, you want to watch the opener and the final episodes when they happen, but work, sporting events, other TV shows, etc., take precedence over the middle episodes.
Ashara D,
Well put. It’s not about Theon becoming Theon or Jon becoming Jon or Daeny becoming Daeny again. It’s about all of them becoming something new. In a way, it might be an Azor Ahai motif for all of the primary characters. Bran already is becoming a Tree God, after all!
That’s just as much speculation as saying that people didn’t watch the episodes immediately because they weren’t so keen on them anymore. There are no statistics, so we can only surmise what their motivation was, and my guess is as good as yours. Or do you have any proof? I’d be interested in reading that.
Are you saying it took them 4 seasons to catch on to that? Hmm …
King Tommen,
Where have you been during S5?
Some people didn’t watch episodes immediately, because S5 returned to the pace of S1-3.
And than at the end, in last 3-4 episodes, they had pace like S4.
dee,
Personally I think there’s a good number of people who watch 80%-100% of every episode live. These people are very dedicated to the show, and are the people who were the very first ones to start watching back in season 1. Although there are a number of new viewers nowadays, a lot of these viewers aren’t so dedicated, and watch when they like (apart from premières and finales). The reason it didn’t happen in earlier is because these people hadn’t started watching yet.
Moreover, there are a number of people who watch just as a fad, and because its popular. These people are less likely to treat it as ‘event tv’. They may well have for a while (season 4), but that isn’t necessarily because of the quality. It’s just because that was an episode every Sunday was novel, and it takes time for them to realise that the Red Wedding doesn’t happen every week. When people binge watch TV they forget the boring episodes, and remember the big events.
Are you trying to say you think Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, etc… will have traumas to overcome which are comparable to the traumas Theon has suffered, or am I misunderstanding you?
Oh, and Petra, thanks for the thoughtful and very well-written piece!
The “proof” is the ratings of the final episodes. For series like this, the finales do not make sense if you have not watched the prior episodes. (It is not just GoT: it’s really true for most Cable TV series.) Basically, the immediate ratings for that basically are telling you how many people have watched the season up to that point.
So, Thrones viewership on HBO went from 8M -> 8.1M. I.e., it was basically static. And what that also means is that those 8M people watched episodes 2-9. So, when the immediate ratings for episode 5 or 6 were in the low-mid 6M numbers, that means that about 1.5+M people who were watching the finale when it happened (or close enough thereafter that they get included in the ratings estimate) were watching episodes 5, 6, etc., after the ratings window had closed.
TOIVA,
Watching the scene, I always had the feeling that the rape was about Theon’s recovery. And reading later declarations of D&D, I still have the feeling that season 6 character development will be about Theon’s feelings. Sansa is just a prop on his way.
Sigh.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Indeed! I think that what Jon has just gone through will qualify as a pretty serious trauma. Daeny has just survived a major assassination attempt. Arya has just been blinded. Sansa has been brutally sexually assaulted. Cersei just got publicly humiliated in an extreme way. Bran already went through it with his crippling, as has Jaime, and Tyrion has gone through it with his public denigration and the after effects of killing his father.
Now, you might say: “but what Theon experienced was worse than any of those!” And maybe it was: but they cannot all be equal. Moreover, others might disagree with your particular rankings. All of them are things that leave a person changed permanently, however, and that is the key thing. Moreover, having things like this happen to all of the key characters cannot be just “chance”: GRRM (and B&W) must intend something for the long-term evolution of the characters with this.
“Game of Thrones may be a fantasy series but it has established a character with an existing mental disorder and is thus obligated to depict that disorder authentically.”
There is no reason to imply that because a work of fiction is Fantasy that it cannot depict human nature authentically.
I don’t think the writer is acquainted with the great modern prose works of science fiction and fantasy.
Sorry to break it to you but Breaking Bad had a horrible first season, the show as a whole was a great experience but a one time only for me. It was great watching it while it happened but I couldn’t bare to watch it again. Better Call Saul had a much better first season in comparison. Game Of Thrones remains a masterpiece for me, the best show that has ever existed.
Ghost’s Lunch,
In fact, the World of Ice and Fire shows that ancient Starks weren’t that much more merciful than the Boltons. I think Ned’s upbringing with Jon Arryn made him too “southern”, and he passed that to his children.
But things are about to change
Only Sansa seems to be learning less “savage” methods, like intrigue and deception. She’s always been more “Southron” than the rest of the Starks.
“I get beaten by my husband…it gives me strength”.
Really?
The depiction of what happens to people who suffer an extreme psychological trauma is the main reason I couldn’t put ASOIAF down, reading it. Theon/Reek’s story always reminded me of my grandfather, who fought in WWII, wasn’t nice person, but I realize carried the psychological wounds from the War all through his life. Watching Alfie Allen is painful, at times, because he so accurately brings across what I saw in my grandfather, even 40 years after the end of the war. But I honestly think he’d deserve an Emmy for what he is doing. Nothing, and I mean nothing, seems out of place, in his depiction.
And mediocre S2 and S3. Only S4 and 5 were great IMO.
Wimsey,
I would never argue the other characters you mentioned have not been through traumas of their own, but, no, I don’t consider them comparable to what Theon has been through. Maybe others do, and they’re entitled to their view. However, first you say yes, you meant the traumas suffered by others are comparable to what Theon has suffered, but then you say they cannot all be equal, which is a contradiction, since “comparable” and “equal” are considered synonyms.
I agree all of the traumas various characters have suffered leave them permanently changed, but to varying degrees, thus, they are not entirely comparable, nor equal.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Bareeq,
I have an n=1 story here: I’ve had the pleasure of rewatching the entire series with an absolute unsullied. He didn’t notice a particular decline in S5 (yes, I asked), and remains hyped for S6. When pressed for negative comments on the last season, the only things he could come up with were: “Jon Snow’s dead! And that little girl (Shireen – he still can’t get all the names right) died horribly, which wasn’t pleasant viewing.”
Yes, yes, anecdata, the worst of all levels of evidence. But there you have it.
iridium,
I think that for many unsullied the least favorite season is S1 or S2.
Great article! I hated Theon at first… Haaated! But now actually he’s grown to be my favorite male character of the series (I mean since The Hound is “dead”). I don’t think he will ever be the same again but I’m really looking forward to seeing him develop further. He has a lot of layers and his transformation is pretty fascinating. I also really appreciate Alfie’s commitment to the character and outlook on his responsibility with it. Go Alfie!! 🙂
mau,
Not him. S2 was his least favourite, mostly because of Dany’s storyline. But again, he’s only one guy.
mau,
Aaand I completely misread your comment, apologies! I managed to miss the word “least”.
He loved S1 though!
Gwendoline Christie and Alfie Allen are in Belfast.
https://instagram.com/p/6cU4QtBFJ4/?taken-by=fintantoad
https://twitter.com/CarSwann/status/632700178961723392
mau,
Other places where there was a little less hand-wringing over personal emotional baggage that people bring to television shows. I still read here but am waiting for the talk to circle back to what’s happening in the story as opposed to how offended people can get over a scene that forever taints their favourite character.
King Tommen,
I was really interested in your reaction to S5.
You were the first one who predicted “Sansa in WF” storyline.
I’m not sure Theon’s condition was really taken too seriously up until the razorblade scene. Not sure if it was a case of the viewer thinking that he got what he deserved to some degree? Up until that point, I think they played Ramsay dangerously close to comical. That certainly changed this season as he came across as deeply unpleasant in his behaviour towards everyone and he got the brattiness and inferiority complex which made his despicable nature that much more despicable. Sansa’s abuse was the tipping point for a lot of people where they finally realised just how bad Ramsay really was ( which makes me wonder why that was far less acceptable than what came before?). Theon is still very broken and I’m sure they’ll show the effects of that but I don’t think they should linger on it too much if it stops the character’s growth.
Team Theon! (although I wouldn’t doubt they’ve simply made him a landing pad for Sansa, and he’s done)
I love Breaking Bad, but I do think the mass adulation is a bit over the top. The show had some rough patches here and there, and the finale was a serious disappointment as far as I’m concerned.
King Tommen,
A king who leaves his subjects to the mercy of others is doomed, King Tommen! Don’t let it happen again :p
I agree with Sean on this. It is highly unlikely they will “sweep it under the rug”. And I don’t think it means showing it in EVERY Theon scene or that Petra meant that when mentioning it is expected to be handled in a realistic manner.
I think that will show up, the Ramsay after effect . Martin himself in Theon’s POV seems to be handling pretty non- fantasy his PTSD. It is not an actual snap really when it comes to his own trauma. And he doesn’t suddenly develop a revenge instinct or a reborn hero trait. Hopefully I’ll get to read it first!
Curious about Sansa too. I will just have to see what the show does about that one.
I liked S4 and S5, but S3 has been just filler with a cliffhanger at the end.
And I agree that BB is so overrated. I recently rewatched it, and I realised that by criteria hardcore GoT fans use for GoT, BB makes no sense at all.
So many plot holes, inconsistencies with characters (and they have only 6-7 characters), unrealistic action scenes, unrealistic plots,…
Yes, acting was great, but characters in BB had all the time in this world for their development. It isn’t really a challenge. I would like to see their writers trying to make character’s journey from the powerful queen to WoS in only 50 minutes.
Agreed, absolutely. Though the belated casting call for Septon Meribald gives me some hope that D & D have been listening to the complaints about the rise of the Sparrows coming out of left field, generally speaking they have missed GRRM’s core theme by putting nearly all the focus on the shenanigans of the aristocracy. Readers who complain that Brienne’s wanderings through a blasted landscape were dull or pointless also missed it. She is our witness to the horrific effect on the masses of warring powerful families. Other than Margaery’s little noblesse oblige outing into the slums of King’s Landing (mainly a political publicity stunt, it seems), there has been hardly any suggestion in the TV show that starvation is rampant, for example.
It’s clear to me from the books that GRRM firmly believes that war is Hell. That’s why he refuses to romanticize chivalry in the usual medieval-fantasy vein, or to paint violence as anything but ugly. It’s how he turned the genre upside-down. The showrunners have been dancing circles around that main theme for far too long; I hope that they do it justice eventually. Showing the realistic long-term effects of trauma via Theon is one way that they can begin to do so. Giving Meribald his full soliloquy is another.
Yeah the ratings are higher than ever, and the RT score is 97% from critics and it just scored 24 Emmy nominations. But whatever. You heard from some people, so I guess the show sucks now. Probably good time for you to stop watching it.
But in GRRM’s books we only see aftermath of war and its effects on society. We saw that in ACOK and ASOS.
Firannion,
Highfive at the gentleman/ lady for making the point I’m always trying to make about AFfC Brienne’s chapters! I don’t think I’m making it as clear as you because it never seems to get across. (Maybe I’m making it to a tough crowd.)
It turns out many didn’t miss the point though. They were just not interested in it and fell asleep through it. It was all about the “plot moving forward” desire for them and Martin’s/editor’s complete failure of understanding that splitting the books geographically is not a viable solution for those who were heavily invested in particular characters. There were many of those.
Tormund’s Woman,
The problem with Brienne’s plot is that we didn’t learn anything new, we already knew all points of that storyline by Arya’s chapters in ACOK and ASOS and Jaime’s chapters.
Brienne’s plot was too long and too repetitive in terms of both plot and themes.
This is why I don’t share in the accolades for Iwan Rheon – though, to be fair, portraying Ramsay as a goofball may have been more of a directorial decision than an acting choice. Going for black humor with this character just seemed to me to be radically the wrong tone. We’re not supposed to snicker at Ramsay’s clowning (or, gods forfend, think he’s ‘cute’); we’re supposed to be appalled and disgusted.
Not so; we learned that desperate, hungry refugees were on the road by the thousands. This is important, and showing it onscreen could have been heartwrenchingly epic. Arya only got minor glimpses of that, because for the most part she was avoiding the main roads.
Firannion,
But you don’t need 8 chapters to show that.
And we knew about refugees from Cersei’s chapters. We learned so much about experiences of war from Arya and Jaime, that image of refugees is really nothing new or special.
Effects of war were shown in books 2 and 3. GRRM only shows that, he almost never shows war itself.
Brienne’s plot is overkill. It is the same Riverlands plot we already have seen so many times. Outlaws, small fights, abandoned cities and villages, raped women, mutilated man,,…
Always. the same.
Thanks, for the interesting article, Petra. I read Myke Cole’s essay, “Art Imitates War: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in ‘A Song of Ice and Fire.’” He also discusses the trauma that Arya has experienced and how she manifests a different form of PTSD.
I don’t know how the show or the book “should” deal with the characters’ response to the trauma they have suffered and, in some cases, will still suffer. Luckily, that’s not my task.
I cannot predict what Theon’s role going forward will be. It is, however, one of the story lines that I am most interested in. I don’t care if he is a primary protagonist or a secondary protagonist or whatever. I hated Theon at the start of this tale. Not any longer. His journey is one of the most compelling aspects of this story.
What Alfie Allen has done in this role is remarkable. It is a shame that he does not get more recognition for it.
Firannion,
Indeed. The fact penis gags were made after Theon’s mutilation didn’t do him any favours in that regard and almost made light of it. He could have been tormented in a much less childish manner much like Ramsay continued to torment Sansa after her wedding night. I also thought the scene where they quickly cut from the Ironborn chap alive to him flayed was almost like a sight gag. Didn’t work for me. THe way in which the showed the flayed woman last season was masterfully shot with close ups on certain body parts and the distress on Sansa’s face really hammering home the depravity of him.
mau,
You mean Arya’s chapters during the war? Brienne’s are aftermath. The war was supposed to be over. This is not Stark vs Lannister and everyone is caught in the middle Arya stuff, this is Riverlands are done fighting and THIS is what is left of it. Looting, killing, no order, people turning to the new wave of religious warriors (which did NOT show up in Arya’s chapters because Cersei hasn’t yet made the step, she wasn’t even a background power in ACoK). To me there is a difference. It might not be for you. Then again, I almost fell asleep myself through ACoK, which I found to be terribly written. Goes to show you, different takes for different folks.
Comparable and equal are not synonyms. Comparable means that they can be meaningfully compared. For example, if things A, B and C are comparable, then we can ask whether A is more like B or more like C, knowing that all three have things in common and things that are different. Things that cause major traumas (torture, sexual assault, physical assault, psychological abuse) would fit into this: they are the same at the level of “major trauma.”
From the viewpoint of storytelling, it actually is good that they are only comparable and not identical. That way GRRM and B&W can create parallels between what happens to the major characters and how they evolve in response to that. It will not be identical in any cases: but in a big way, the overarching story will summarize a comparison between how those characters respond to these different traumas.
Tumultuous ratings? That is just not true. I was disappointed in this article.
?!? All of the primary characters in the books belong to aristocratic families. There is no focus on non-noble characters: even Davos is a “new noble,” after all.
Moreover, the Sparrows came out of left-field in the books, too. The Church did not seem to represent anything of particular importance in the first three books: it was there, but seemed to be a rubber-stamp for the aristocracy. This sort of religious populism plot sprung out of nowhere in Crows, and it sprung out of nowhere in Season 5.
I knew when I read the importance of x I should have turned away. The importance of dorne post from a few back was such self important whining. As for an “obligation” to portray anything? Come on they have an importance to tell the story they wish to (hopefully from GRRM). If you’ve read the books and Theons chapters you know he’s pretty messed up and the show has actually done a good job portraying this. The Winds chapter he’s in also shows he’s not “snapping back to normal”.
That’s why I find this quote so amusing. “To do otherwise and write post-season 5 Theon as merely a thinner, humbler version of his second season self, would not only negate the integrity of Theon’s arc. It would disservice real-world trauma victims.”. So basically you’re getting offended by a hypothetical situation that hasnt happened yet.
I enjoyed reading the thoughts from all (including the external links) about the aftermath (and ramifications) of war and atrocity on the various PoVs. For me, Brienne’s arc was a great depiction of a descent into the post-war hell of the riverlands area. I was fascinated at how thankless, hopeless and dark her tale was, and why GRRM chose to extend her grimness to such an extent. He doesn’t cut her any slack at all. Her two last chapters in AFfC are very rough to read and only lead her to even greater atrocities.
Jaime’s PoV saw the devastation and trauma of the riverlands as well, although it was a bit sheltered. LS and the BwB embodied it. Theon may provide some insight but I don’t believe he is coming back from his level of hell. Arya is my favorite extreme adjuster as she travels through hell but her damage may actually be to her advantage. Sam’s arc is crazy and quite lucky; he may be the most sane and be able to put some puzzle pieces together in the end. Still waiting on how Sansa matures as a result of her exposure to various monsters. Jon/AA & Ghost? As others have eloquently stated, all ASoI&F characters are changing and adapting (often dysfunctionally) to their surroundings.
But as far as “handling trauma” goes, we have only been through Acts I & II. Act III (TWoW & ADoS) is coming. Whatever trauma they have been through, even more is on the horizon. The descent into hell will continue. We have yet to experience ASoI&F’s version of Wagner’s Götterdämmerung. The battles of AGoT-ASoS and the bleakness of AFfC/ADwD shouldn’t even compare to what’s ahead for all. Can’t wait to see/read how each character uses their arc’s stepping stones to address their fate, for better or worse.
Watch out for those flying diseased corpses headed your way in Meereen! Sound the attack!
Nicely said
Hoyti Von Totiy,
so its following the same trend as the novels then…
Excellent essay, Petra We had similar discussions about Art imitates Life in HS theatre classes – its a topic that is important when talking about character development. I remember two of my favorite shows where a characters underwent major trauma and the reactions to both colored my view of the show: in ER, Dr Mark Green is beaten horribly by a patient who himself underwent trauma. Greens progression for the next season or so was vital to how the show developed and my enjoyment of it realism. ‘Then there is Castle, where he has a near death experience. In the next scene, he shows up for the next case and is asked ‘really, are you ok?’ “oh yeah Im fine’ and its never brought up again. Bugged the hell out of me. So Im hoping we see some level of PTSD symptoms on GOT; they make a big deal about realism in the violence, sex, poverty, and suffering, they could do this as well. I’d like the show and the character much more than I do even now.
Hodor’s Bastard,
You stated something that I have been thinking about more and more lately. I wonder if this will end up being Sam’s story….
Really? Well, I guess all the thesauri need to be rewritten, then.
Cersei’s Brain,
Me too. I loved the excellent and eerie connection between the prologue and Sam’s last PoV chapter in AFfC (10 yrs ago!!!). If he survives “P”, he may stumble across a few more possible end-game puzzle pieces in or near Oldtown…or is his trip all a big, bloated adventure just so he can go back home to Horn Hill?
Which will enlighten us regarding Sam first…TWoW or S6? :/
If your thesaurus treats them as synonyms, then you got a bad copy! If nothing else, then think of the phrase “more comparable.” (There is no comparable “more equal” phrase, which is telling.) A is more comparable to B or C, depending on whether A shares more features with B or C. Comparative Biology is the comparison of different organisms, in which we identify what is the same (as well as what is different) on two organisms. A human and a chimp are more comparable to each other than either is to a baboon, for example. However, humans and chimps are not identical: we just share a lot of things in common.
Now, we could ask to which character’s trauma Theons’ is most comparable. In some ways, one could argue that Tyrion’s is: Tyrion is reduced to a broken drunk at an absolute nadir who has well and truly lost himself. On the other hand, Bran is also physically broken and Bran, too, loses all of his dreams/ambitions because of it. Jaime’s trauma is very comparable because, to be almost crass, Theon’s genitals meant as much to him as Jaime’s sword hand meant to him. The latter might make most sense: both Jaime and Theon are sort of secondary protagonists, after all.
Regardless, I think that the traumas will be very comparable for all the leads in terms of how they distinguish the character in Spring from the same character in Thrones.
Zeus,
Did she say she was offended? She said she didn’t want it to happen.
The ratings were tumultuous. That’s factually accurate. Check a dictionary, and the weekly ratings posts.
Petra, excellent article. Now I have to go read the essay you referenced.
“Everyone”?
AFFC has the “worst” review of any of the ASOIAF books, yet it still has a better net rating on Goodreads than 13 out of 14 of the other 14 books that were nominated for the Hugo over that three-year stretch bounding its release.
You are greatly exaggerating.
They’d better get used to it. One of the good things about ASOIAF is that it isn’t overly-reliant on “particular characters”, just like the real world. If you are looking for the Merry Adventures of the Stark Children and the Dragon Girl, you’ve come to the wrong place. ASOIAF is bigger than that.
Someone tell that to GRRM the next time he wants to dismiss a scene with his Gone With the Wind analogy; or to any of the cast members/fans who–in their rush to defend–quickly dismiss any negative backlash with a snide, “It’s not REAL!” comment.
If we aren’t supposed to “care” about these characters, then why are we watching this show and/or reading these books? If what happens to them isn’t supposed to impact us in any sort of way, then why are ANY of us invested in this series? I dislike this notion that we’re supposed to divorce our emotions from what we’re watching simply because, “IT’S NOT REAL!!!!!!1111”
Everyone who watches this series (or reads the books) is invested in this series because we care about individual characters and their stories (as well as the narrative as a whole). These characters were written so that we COULD relate to them, and care about them, and watch them grow. So, to fall back on this cheap excuse that none of this is “real” (therefore, we shouldn’t care or get ’emotional’ about it) when a lot of people react negatively to a scene/storyline is ridiculous and patronizing. I wish people would let others feel what they feel and not tell them they’re stupid for feeling it.
As far as the actual subject of this article…I think GoT has given itself a great opportunity to put on display, and really delve deep, into the effects of PTSD. Tell you the truth, I think they already have (in Theon’s case) but, if characters like Septon Meribald and the war-torn inhabitants of the Riverlands start showing up, then you can pretty much assume that the theme of PTSD (in some shape or form) will play out in S6. I wouldn’t expect a huge discourse though. I mean, the show is telling a ‘big picture’ story and “the effects of trauma and war” is only one of the themes.
This is supposed to be literature/cinema, not the “real world.” The over-arching story itself will largely emerge from the parallels in how just a few of the characters (Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya & Bran) evolved from Thrones -> Spring.
I’m just going to point out no one had any problems with all the violence before this season. In fact that’s one of the shows biggest selling points. This years phoney uproar fits a certain political agenda and that’s why it got so much attention.
Damn, hilarious to see the despair of the *Usual Suspects* book wankers here, sweating their arses off to justify Mr. Martin´s kinky work.
flintwielder,
And there are only the same 5-7 people.
Wimsey,
Yes, I agree that they watched it at some point before the finale – we both think that. We just disagree on their motivations for that. You say that it is because they had decided to binge-watch because they had finally realized that it was more fun that way, while I think that they didn’t watch it immediately because they weren’t so keen on the show on a weekly basis anymore because it had lost something for them. Both explanations, yours and mine, are speculation. Your proof is proof for the end result (which is the same in both our cases), not for their motivations.
I doubt it. Sansa’s story this season was almost more about him than it was about her herself, so that would not fit with their narrative. They hung the gun, so to speak, by having him go against Ramsay’s wisches for the first time in I don’t now how many episodes. This is not the end.
RosanaZugey,
Well said!
dee,
Sansa’s story was made for Theon, but in no way was it about Theon. Rather than actually creating scenes for him, they just amped-up the importance of the Jeyne Poole trophy-role and figured that on its own would make people love Theon when he finally saves her.
But when you go this route, Theon stops being a character to be cared about on his own merits and starts being an event, a hollow plot-point without any meaning or value beyond “OH MY GOD SOMETHING GOOD IS HAPPENING AND THAT IS A RARE SURPRISE.” People talk about how Sansa was used as a redemption tool this season – and I completely agree – but so few people describe Theon as being a simple tool in her escape that it makes me question whether we were really watching the same show at all.
I believe they purposefully held off on doing any meaningful Reek-development stuff (such as what would have been an amazing godswood scene #NeverForgetToBeBitter), because they wanted to cram it all into a time-space that occurs after both Stannis and Brienne have failed.
The whole season is designed to make an Unsullied think that Stannis or Brienne will save her (or that she might save herself), and only after it has systematically denied each of these possibilities does Theon finally spring into action in a way that is tantamount to a piece of scenery randomly toppling over and crushing Myranda when the hour was darkest.
flintwielder,
Hilarious to see you still contribute nothing to this site except trying to stir shit. Back to the playground, son.
The ratings were not tumultuous. They took a hit on Memorial Day, which was expected by any rational person. It was the highest rated season yet, and never dropped below 6.5 million viewers outside of Memorial Day.
Tim,
You obviously have not been here since the beginning! Yes, there was, as well as problems with nudity and sex that did nothing for the story. Now, both are in the book and so it shouldn’t have surprised anyone But yeah, it wasn’t just this season.
RosanaZugey,
Very well said
I agree, but ASOIAF is not like other books. It doesn’t relentlessly focus on just one or at most a handful of characters, nor should it. Nor does it limit itself to “focusing” in characters introduced in the first book, though you seem to steadfastly insist that this was some sort of editing error rather than part of the story. I’m pretty much baffled as to how with thousands of pages left in the series, one could argue that it was too late to introduce major characters.
I’m late to the party, there’s not much I can add that wasn’t already said, but I’ll congratulate Petra for her article, it was an interesting read and I agree completely.
Leaf,
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-episode-502-drops-in-live-viewership/
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-episode-506-wins-night-while-viewership-falls/
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-viewership-numbers-drop-a-tad-on-mothers-day/
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-ratings-remain-flat-for-another-week-with-ep-504-sons-of-the-harpy/
Ratings went up and down, and were a bit of a mess. That is what tumultuous means.
Eventually, cumulative viewership after a day or so and including all platforms, HBO would come up with higher numbers, enabling us to arrive at the season-end high totals. But there’s no denying that the day-after reported episode ratings were not rising in the way that they typically do (except on Memorial Day, of course). People were not really rushing to watch the episode’s first viewing. I’m sure people can debate what that means (whether the show is no longer appointment viewing or if our TV world has just changed) and they have done so, in ratings threads. Which this isn’t.
All of this that you’re quibbling over is ultimately nitpicking a minor comment and derailing from there. The bottom line is, depicting trauma of people like Theon, Sansa and Arya in a realistic fashion is the issue. The dramatic quality of the show is the point. Ratings are not the point. Good storytelling is.
Wimsey,
There’s a difference between being a noble and “doing aristocratic shenanigans”. Brienne and Arya are both noble, but during A Storm of Swords they don’t spend any time “playing the game of thrones”.
The Sparrows didn’t sprung out of nowhere in the books. During the previous books it’s shown that the armies are brutalizing the Faith and the smallfolk, and in Brienne’s first chapter they state why they’re coming to the capital: to force the Crown to protect the innocent and the Faith.
In the TV series, however, a lot of “Unsullied” watchers must be wondering why are there so many fanaticts all of a sudden, specially since they seem to be more worried about beating the crap out of whoremongers and smashing ale kegs than actually protecting the smallfolk.
I just wanted to say: that imagery is hilarious (and fairly accurate).
If Theon has a complete recovery it would be bad writing, I’ll agree on that. Don’t necessarily agree that the show has obligations to specific communities.
Great article.
I am a bit worried regarding the development of Theon and other characters. With exception of the Wall and Kings Landing, all story lines provided the usual big bangs while failing to lay sufficient ground work: good characterizations / story lines.
Perhaps because a majority demands “bigger and bigger action scenes” or because the endgame becomes nearer, but you see it more often then not that when series or filmfranchises advance, set pieces gain favor over charachter growth.
Bigger isn’t always better.
I, for one, hope that D&D pay a lot of attention to the consequences of suffering for their characters next year. I would like to see a lot of intimate, small scenes with Theon, Sansa, Cersei, Jaime and Brienne, all of whom have been through a lot over the last few seasons.
dee,
My bets are on Sansa becoming Lady Stoneheart + evil seductress bitch vibes so the writers can have their “strong womentm concept” and “shocking Sansa scene shock-shock-badass-shock” they like so much. They don’t know how to handle trauma very well. All of this, after spend the full season developing Theon’s trauma again.
I’d have less of an issue with the article if it was strictly about maintaining a character’s consistency and not bringing in the stuff like they need to be true to this “mental health” issue for the sake of the real-world PTSD sufferers.
The show has the obligation to tell a strong and compelling story for its audience (which includes logical character emotional journeys), not to be an accurate reflection of whatever your personal experience has been with various traumas in your own life.
I also am bothered with the repeated notions that characters who suffer through torture and rape all need to react in a specific way according to how you or people you know have reacted in your own life. There seems to be this checklist of what we HAVE to be shown (bad dreams, crying, talking about it constantly with other characters etc) when we all know that every single person reacts differently to trauma. Many people internalize these things and can appear outwardly recovered which is just as legitimate a reaction as the things the author seems to want to see happen.
And as always, putting aside that this is a fictional universe, this show has established that its characters exist in a time and space that is very different than the 21st Century. These characters (even the ones who are in relatively stable environments) have lived a much harder life than all of us have and their life experiences have been shaped in a much different context. Many of the atrocities that we gasp and like to write our “thinkpieces” about are much more commonplace in this world. As a result, the characters are much more emotionally hardened and less sensitive than people living in this day and age would be when visited with the same trauma.
Finally, I don’t think the author fully understood what people meant when they said they wanted Theon to “snap out of it”. It’s a strawman argument to suggest that anyone thinks that Theon is now going to be the same as he was before he was captured by Ramsay. The show isn’t going to revert him back to that stage and I’d invite you to find any segment of the fanbase who believes that is what would happen in S6 as well.
Sean C.,
Haha thanks. I’ve complained about the show’s take on Theon and the Northern plot so many times now I feel like I’ve gotta find more creative ways of wording it.
Theon’s treatment is the thing I’m least worried about in season six. Regardless of their failings in other areas Theon’s story has always shined. It didn’t even cross my mind this article was about Theon when I clicked it open.
Was PTSD recognised in medieval times (GoT/ASOIAF being set in faux/medieval times)? I can’t remember the name of the programme but something was mentioned on the BBC that some of the soldiers who were shot for “desertion” in the First Word War would have been diagnosed with PTSD in more modern times, but that it wasn’t recognised back then.
I suppose in pre-PTSD diagnosis days it would have been said that “Person x never really got over so and so experience” or something to that effect. I don’t really see that Theon could ever bounce back to confident Theon totally – he was a more than competent archer if I recall (e.g. saving Bran from the Wildings back a few seasons) but – maybe depending which fingers Ramsay has flayed – his hands’ physical injuries would very likely detract from his ability as an archer post-Ramsay.
Petra’s article is food for thought but I won’t presume how the show will treat matters in season 6.
Tim,
“Phoney uproar”?? “A certain political agenda”? What are you even talking about?
King Tommen,
thank you for saying this, better then i ever could!!
i completly agree with you, who ever thinks that Theon ”just snapped” is very wrong. Theon’s never going to be the same person, ever again.
neither is Sansa, but is this not the point of stories? People going trough painfull events that change them, for better or worse. I for one enjoy this kind of stories very much, seeing how people grow/change, over time.
Sean C.,
This is a really good point. Think about how amazing the scene would have been if Sansa had somehow gained the upper hand and therefore was the one who pushed Myranda over the balcony (she had the urge when Joff showed her Ned’s head). Then grabbing Theon, is the one who decides to jump into the snow. This would have shown that Sansa has agency and will do what it takes to escape instead of waiting to be saved. D&D missed a great opportunity but maybe the best is yet to come.
Gilly’s bonsaied baby,
the word ”agency” needs to be banned.
you want Sansa to do something against her character. she is not violent. she would never kill someone.
Sansa starting to kill and manipulate people left and right, would not have been Sansa, just some fan-fic, to please her fans.
She’s pretty much wondering about things that she may find offensive before they do or don’t happen. That’s a strange way to go through life
King Tommen,
Great comment.
Theon will never be the same again. If he continues to find the strength within himself to do whatever it takes to accomplish things, it will still feel bittersweet since deep inside he can’t just “snap out of it.”
On the other hand, showing him in the reek state forever would do a disservice to fans who want to see his story and character evolving.
Mihnea,
I’m fed up of reading about “agency” and “lazy writing”. I’m not the comments police so if people didn’t like Sansa being given the sub-plot of a cut book character (can’t say I was crazy about it myself but I disliked the radical changing of book Ellaria’s personality more) they are at liberty to dislike it [disliking is instinctive anyway]. I do get fed up of seeing the same expressions cropping up though – “story-arc” annoys me too, but I guess that’s just me. I wish people would use slightly less hackneyed expressions.
Mihnea,
I just spent a lot of time replying to your attack and then it timed out and was lost. I have a life to get to so I’ll have to be brief.
Sansa acting in self-defense would not be out of character. She has had thoughts of killing before and many people accidentally kill or maim people in self-defense. It’s fine if you think that Sansa should just take all the abuse but I think she should do what it takes to get out of her situation and not rely other people!
Also I don’t think Theon meant to kill Myranda but I’ll have to re-watch. Upon first viewing it, it appeared that he was quickly reacting to the situation in order to save Sansa and because the railing was low Myranda toppled over it. If Sansa had somehow been in a situation where she could have knocked Myranda out (instead of killing her) or something it would have been great. I would have liked Sansa to be in control and I don’t think that is out of character. Or maybe it is out of character for now.
Make sure you and Dame of Mercia let all the other posters that use the words you don’t like to stop using them. I’m sure you are prefect!
Gilly’s bonsaied baby,
I think you just had bad luck with what Minhea said. It’s just that “agency” has been floating about rather a lot in these comments lately. Of course you are not the only person who has used that particular word.
Of course if we want other people to address us with common courtesy on the website we should do so ourselves (myself included). I did mention some expressions I have personally grown tired of above – it was a generalised statement on my part; I wasn’t “having a go” at you personally.
My bad. You aren’t mistaken, various thesauri are. Got it!
I agree, the characters, or at least many aspects of them, are relatable. What I’ll never understand is why, when equally horrific (or even more horrific) things happen to the characters in the books, it isn’t problematic, but when they’re depicted on the show, oftentimes in a less extreme fashion than what appeared on the page, it’s suddenly hugely problematic. Is it just that seeing it is so much harder than reading about it? Is that what takes it from, “wow, this is disturbing as hell,” to “this has me so upset I can barely function?” I’m not speaking of those who don’t like things in the show because they happened differently, or to different people, in the book.
As far as Theon goes, no, I don’t think D&D have a responsibility to research the effects of various sorts of PTSD and ensure those effects are realistically depicted in the show (not that anyone said that, specifically). By that same token, if Theon just suddenly reverted back to who he used to be, without any evidence of what he’d been through, it wouldn’t work, because it wouldn’t be realistic enough.
Dame of Mercia,
Thanks for your response. I felt a little attacked.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
As a non book reader and having many non book reader friends, I don’t really agree with this. We loved season 5.. And I actually don’t hate dany.
Gilly’s bonsaied baby,
Well, I’ve been typing a bit quickly here lately as the edit facility has reduced in time and there is also the fact that the comments tend to time-out somewhat swiftly. Ideally one (impersonal “one” including me) would proofread one’s post for mistakes or to check whether would seem like a personal jibe at another poster – though I must admit I am much better at noticing other folks’ mistakes than my own (though I’m quite sure other people will notice any “howlers” I make). Still this a fansite not a place for English grammar lessons. In retrospect I notice I used “of course” twice in my previous post.
Not one mention of Sansa in this entire article…. shameful IMO
Not a Nice Person,
This.
And the story is VIOLENT. It’s not Hello Kitty. I’m so over the people who want to change this story and tame it down. NO. It is what it is. And the books are so much worse as far as sex, violence, and sexual violence go. It doesn’t need fixing.
/steps off soapbox
Untrue. GRRM’s sex scenes always either A) advance the plot or B) provide insights into a character. They are never used just for titillation, the way HBO makes up scenes like Littlefinger coaching new recruits to his brothel on how to fake orgasm.
I haven’t heard anybody complain about, for example, the scene where Bran discovers Jaime and Cersei in the tower, because it is significant: It is the cause of Bran’s crippling, and also reveals the true nature of the twins’ relationship. It’s the gratuitous sex scenes and gratuitious nudity that many viewers find objectionable.
What drive me most berserk, personally, are all the nude women depicted with Brazilian waxes, which is about as anachronistic for the Dark Ages as having them talking on cellphones would be. Until the past few decades, even prostitutes didn’t do that – unless they catered to men like Meryn Trant. Apparently the showrunners think that modern audiences just can’t deal with the reality that women naturally have pubic hair.
In my Vietnam-era youth, PTSD was still called “shell shock.”
Coming so late to the discussion, some points would be moot….others already discussed to death. But, because I can’t help it…
I agree with whomever said that it isn’t in Sansa to kill. In self defense? She hasn’t done it in self-defense yet or even tried. When confronted by Myranda, she says she would rather die while she was whole. I DO think that Sansa wishes she was different though. I don’t think she is any longer quite the lady eating lemon cakes and sewing all day sort. And now that she is going go be – for at least a bit – on the run, in horrid conditions and who knows what physical shape…..I think she will get tougher..but kill? Not as in, a warrior feels justified for killing sort of way, but maybe as in oops I stabbed Sweet Robert as he fell on my knife that I just happened to be holding at the time.
Personally? While I may have thought many times through my life that this person just should be put out of *our* misery….could I ever do that? Absolutely not. My brother suggested I get a gun and I told him no. I would be more likely to be killed by my own gun than harm another. Even if I wanted to and it felt warranted to save my life. So I kinda get where Sansa might be coming from.
All that said…what the heck do I know. She could be Lizzy Borden come Season 6.
Regarding the PTSD as it relates to GoT’s in the article. I tend to go the way of King Tommen’s viewpoint, but not that strong. Just as he says, people have the right not to project others opinion on the characters, people also have a right to do just that. When you write your own article, write it just as you wish.
Firannion,
Yes, Martin only describes sex scenes that are absolutely essential to the plot or characters. You are so right.
By the way, since Xaro is dead on the show, I guess we aren’t going to get that essential scene from the books where he parades a bunch of oiled up naked dancers writhing around in a semi-orgy for Dany to watch. Too bad, the story can’t really proceed without that scene as its definitely important and in no way meant to titillate.
King Tommen,
Clearly that performance is meant to titillate Dany, whom Xaro is wooing in his own awkward way. It also tells the reader a fair bit about the culture of a city whose claim to fame is training bed slaves.
Plus it shows how Xaro is used to buying what he wants and how he treats women and people in general. Basically it’s set up to define his character and also Dany’s in that she rejects (and is quite disgusted by)him..
Firannion,
If this is the slim criteria you use to justify Martin’s many graphic descriptions of sex and nudity in the books, then I can give you a similar reason as to why every sex scene is on the show as well. The point is that both the books and show are full of sex and violence and you can tie them into plot and character development if you really want to.
Not to mention that by and large, almost every sex scene on the show is taken directly from the books and they don’t even use all of them (Arianne/Arys, Cersei/Taena, Tyrion/Volantis whore, Theon participating with Jeyne, Dany/Hizdahr, Dany/Irri, Asha/Qarl the Maid etc).
JCDavis,
When she tossed the corkscrew after picking the lock, I abandoned any belief that she’d turn. 😉
Seriously though – is it really necessary that she DOES have some sort of change of character? Not everyone has to become a vengeful killer or manipulative bitch. I am not a fan of Sansa (but I give full props to Sophie Turner) and I get frustrated with her character, but why CAN’T there just be people who are….people? That would be kind of refreshing, and in a way more shocking than anything else, if people like Sansa, Tommen, etc were to buck the trend and be allowed to struggle and stay the course but still come out ok and not nuts in the end despite it all.
Which they won’t of course. Both won’t make it past Book/Season 6 or partly through 7. But it’d be a little satisfying.
Quarths claim to fame is training bed slaves? I thought that was Lys. Maybe I’m remembering incorrectly, and that is Quarth’s claim to fame, as well.
I agree with King Tommen and others who contend there is far, far more sex in the books than on the show, although there’s a ton of it on the show, too.
mariamb,
Totally agree about Alfie. He deserves at least nominations for his work, but on a show chock full of amazing (and higher profile) talent, I doubt he will be.
I think Theon is fighting to reclaim himself, but I don’t see D&D having him pop up fully healed. He’ll bare the scars and fight every day not to give in to the demons. But he’ll fight. Which is different than the acceptance of Reek of his condition.
I have to say, since Hunger Games was alluded to, what Peeta goes through is more than just tracker jacket venom injection to alter his memories. He was mentally/psychologically tortured
I have had my share of abuse myself (although not at Theon’s scale thank God) and I can tell you that snapping out of it is absolutely possible. It just comes a moment when you say that is enough. So seeing that for him and Sansa is a real joy and gives hope. Of course noone talks about healing. That needs time and help and in my case ten years have not been enough. But you can carry on with your life and be more or less normal and that is what I hope to see in season six. Of course old Theon won’t be coming back. And I think Sansa will be quite stronger now.
Weeks late to the party (been away with crap Internet) but interesting reading all the comments. I fully agree with the hope that Theon’s character development continues, and I have considerable expectation that it will. Isn’t that why this is so good? Why we watch it?
I recall in other (shoddy) shows in the past characters suffering from e.g. ME and PND one episode and it then never being mentioned again and the character being totally fine the next episode. Pointless. Why even include it? Fashion? Public awareness? It does less than nothing for public awareness.
Rant over. That’s better.