Sophie Turner on Sansa’s new season: “She is taking charge”

Sansa

Sansa Stark has always been a polarizing character on Game of Thrones, with as many detractors as passionate fans. Her journey from romantically minded girl of the North to a weary, twice-married young woman has been a bumpy one, filled with abuse and lessons on playing the game. In season 5, we saw Sansa return to Winterfell, but under dark circumstances with her marriage to Ramsay Bolton, in a storyline that left many viewers frustrated at Sansa once again being left in a position without power.

Discussing season 6 in new interviews, actress Sophie Turner says that’s all about to change.

This is the season I’ve kind of been waiting for for Sansa, and I feel like fans have been as well,” Turner tells the LA Times. “Those people that get frustrated at her for doing nothing — this is the season where she actually does something.”

The actress explains that Sansa won’t be a pawn and won’t be “shipped around” this time. “She is taking charge and she is bringing the people that she wants with her to get what she wants. She becomes a leader in her own right.”

Turner teases the new season in Vanity Fair as well. Referencing her character, Sophie says, “I know her better than I know myself. After everything Sansa’s gone through, it’s going to be a big one.”

She discusses her childhood and her work on the new X-Men film as well so head over to Vanity Fair for the full article.

337 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. It seems that GRRM is fond of “Phoenix Rising” arcs for his characters. That makes sense given the theory of storytelling to which he ascribes: if you are going to make your lead characters come face-to-face with their internal inconsistencies, and if you are going to make them actively try to run before they can walk, then there is going to be a lot of cathartic pain.

      It will be interesting to see what aspects of Sansa evolve from her ashes. But we can say that for Jon, Daeny, Tyrion and Arya, too, and possibly still for Bran.

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    2. I feel like it’s slowly turning out Season 6 has a lot of things that I expected to happen in Season 5, and this is one of them.

      I can’t decide if this is commentary on my impatience or on some bad writing. I think it’s most that some arcs were ready to ripe sooner than others, and S5 had to both cut and add filler to synchronise them.

      Ah well. Fortunately if it turns out that if it is indeed so that S6 brings all the goodies, I can always skip 5, except for some important moments, on rewatch.

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    3. Yeah I honestly don’t care about Sansa’s… Her character arc has been incredibly boring and there is nothing (besides what happened in season 5) that has given me any reason to actually care about her character.

      Now she is apparently “taking charge” is something that I personally don’t believe works with the character that has been created and really just doesn’t work. Seriously can you keep the characters that are created at least in the bounds of believability. This reminds me of another post I saw where Sansa is apparently a great person to rule due to the fact that she has experienced the political setting of kings landing… Yeah just doesn’t work. There would be many better leaders then Sansa Stark… (Thank you Ayra our saviour)

      Move on to a character worth speaking about please, as Sansa’s is not interesting and her character is unbelievable.

      Bring on more Ayra as her character arc has been wonderful and gripping.

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    4. ladywolfsbane,

      Arctic pteranodon?

      Seriously, I would have Bran as the Raven and Jon as the Crow. I suspect that the “King Crow” line is a bit of foreshadowing.

      Flayed Potatoes,

      Not necessarily. (And there is no need to put speculation in spoilers!) After all, Catelyn started to take on a role of leadership while helping Robb. Tyrion strated to take on roles of leadership while serving Joffery: and now he’s doing it for Daeny. So, Sansa taking on leadership roles on behalf of Rickon would be entirely consistent with this.

      One thing that I am beginning to suspect is that we have a classic Martinesque “three-way” coming up. I would not be surprised if Sansa, working to find and restore Rickon, winds up raising some of the smaller houses against the Boltons, while “King Crow” Jon independently leads Wildlings and Loyalists against the Boltons. In the mean time, Bran might be offering nudges and hints sort of Druid Ex Machina.

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    5. I hope this is true but I really don’t believe anything Sophie Turner says anymore

      If it is true and Sansa does ‘take control’ then I hope it actually makes sense and feels natural but im worried that D&D will just rush into Sansa becoming a leader and manipulator just to please fans

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    6. SimpleWatcher: Seriously can you keep the characters that are created at least in the bounds of believability.

      Character evolution is the heart of all modern stories. Contrary to the old stories in which leadership skills are innate, these skills are things that real people learn: and the how/why people learn them can be used to create story. That is much of what M,B&W are doing.

      WalterHarrow: im worried that D&D will just rush into Sansa becoming a leader and manipulator just to please fans

      It is series 6. It is far too late for this to be “rushed!” What it has been is subtle: but when you have this many main characters, some are going to evolve more subtly than are others.

      Dan Stark: Sansa the Dove (little bird) and Jon the Phoenix.

      Well, Daeny is the only one to have literally re-arisen from flames. Moreover, Daeny is going to do a Phoenix thing herself: as a Dowager Khaleesi, she is essentially a dead-woman. She also is going to be at a personal nadir.

      But this is also why I think that Jon bonding with Ghost is going to be important for his complete recovery: I suspect that Daeny is going to do something in parallel with Drogon. I would not be surprised if Jon+Ghost and Daeny+Drogon are far more firmly cemented at the end of this series.

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    7. Yaga,

      Now we just need to be spared for 2 more years, and we will be completely spared….

      I think that Sansa + Tormund would make a great couple. Their kids would be both very ginger and very tall.

      😀

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    8. Sansa’s story this year is one of my top most anticipated. Well besides Jon, if he comes back…………………

      I really liked her story last year.

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    9. Wimsey:

      Flayed Potatoes,

      One thing that I am beginning to suspect is that we have a classic Martinesque “three-way” coming up.I would not be surprised if Sansa, working to find and restore Rickon, winds up raising some of the smaller houses against the Boltons, while “King Crow” Jon independently leads Wildlings and Loyalists against the Boltons.In the mean time, Bran might be offering nudges and hints sort of Druid Ex Machina.

      Spoilers claim that she comes to save the day with LF and Vale Army while Ramsay has Rickon. Probably what she does in the books also, she will learn what LF teaches her and turn it against him. She will not suddenly turn into military genius, her powers will come from manipulating men. I bet Rickon will die.

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    10. Sophie did have great things to say about her character and arc in previous seasons too, just saying.
      Whatever the case, I hope she doesn’t suddenly gain competence and become a major player or leader because that’d be unbelievable. If she’s all ‘girl power’ without a build-up or explanation, it will ring forced and hollow. It needs to be an organic, gradual process. And she hasn’t done anything in the way of the game so far.

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    11. WalterHarrow:
      I hope this is true but I really don’t believe anything Sophie Turner says anymore

      If it is true and Sansa does ‘take control’ then I hope it actually makes sense and feels natural but im worried that D&D will just rush into Sansa becoming a leader and manipulator just to please fans

      Exactly this. 🙂

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    12. Wimsey,

      Thanks. I have no idea when to put things in spoilers or not, since I’m always afraid of potentially spoiling the Unsullied. So you’re saying they might rally forces separately and then team up? That would be interesting and it would also give Bran more things to do.

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    13. Kargaryen:
      I’ll take her comments with a grain of salt because they are kinda similar to the comments she gave last year.

      Ditto. Sophie Turner loves stroking the hype.

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    14. Among 1st tier characters, Sansa is not one whose story I have enjoyed much, but I totally believe Sophie when she says that Sansa is going to start having a say in her own destiny this season. For the simple reason that, ALL the 1st tier characters do – the show is beginning the last act now! I believe Sansa will go back to the Vale, reunite with LF, and convince the Vale Lords to march against the Boltons. She will be totally instrumental in ending the Boltons for good and taking charge of Winterfell – and that is a storyline I look forward to quite a lot!

      I think the show’s deviation in placing Sansa at WF in Season 5 and having her experience the horror of the Boltons firsthand, is masterful and a very powerful motivator for her to rid the North of them ASAP, and take control of Winterfell again. She had not focussed on WF for quite some time before Season 5.

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    15. Wimsey,

      That makes it seem that, for the final battle of all battles, Daeny will lead the air attack while Jon leads the ground attack.

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    16. why is it that so many people here want to see rickon die so much? every second post here seems to really looking forward to his death, even so he had a miserable life so far..

      for me, if he will find himself in the hands of the boltons with the help of the umbers, will be idiotic, almost as the bad pussy line, not make any sense…

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    17. Wimsey:
      ladywolfsbane,
      Not necessarily.(And there is no need to put speculation in spoilers!)After all, Catelyn started to take on a role of leadership while helping Robb.Tyrion strated to take on roles of leadership while serving Joffery: and now he’s doing it for Daeny.So, Sansa taking on leadership roles on behalf of Rickon would be entirely consistent with this.

      You do realize that you are comparing Sansa with Catelyn and Tyrion? Tyrion the highly intelligent former Hand of the King and the thirty something former wardeness of the North, Catelyn? You are seriously saying 16-17 year old Sansa is as capable as being a leader as the other two?

      I think the best cast scenario is that Rickon bites the bullet and Sansa is made QITN. The North will follow her because she is a Stark, but I have yet to see any leadership qualities out of her.

      In the books looks like Manderly and the rest of the Northern Lords don’t need anyone to lead them. They seem to be revolting against the Boltons on their own.

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    18. Starkloyalist:
      why is it that so many people here want to see rickon die so much? every second post here seems to really looking forward to his death, even so he had a miserable life so far..

      for me, if he will find himself in the hands of the boltons with the help of the umbers, will be idiotic, almost as the bad pussy line, not make any sense…

      In my case I’m preparing myself for the worst. I don’t want him to die, but I think it might happen.

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    19. Having loved her season 5 story line, I’m sooooooo excited for her season 6 story line

      Love her! And Sophie

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    20. Sullied by Knight: That makes it seem that, for the final battle of all battles, Daeny will lead the air attack while Jon leads the ground attack.

      I suspect that the final battle will be a negotiated truce, with the real fight in the heads of Jon, Daeny and others. Look at them to be put in the place that Ned was put at the Tower of Joy: they can uphold some values by betraying others, or uphold other values by betraying some. It will not be about the “right” choice so much as the least egregiously wrong choice: and then they will have to live with it!

      But until we know the “why” of the Walkers, the Old Gods and R’hllor (and their “whys” will be critical), then it’s really hard to posit what this will involve. Still, Davos’ words might be prophetic: sometimes you do have to put one boy in front of everything else.

      SerNoName: You are seriously saying 16-17 year old Sansa is as capable as being a leader as the other two?

      “Being”? No. “Becoming”? Yes. Again, it’s all about “becoming.”

      SerNoName: In the books looks like Manderly and the rest of the Northern Lords don’t need anyone to lead them. They seem to be revolting against the Boltons on their own.

      Not really: there does not seem to be any real organization amongst the Northerners. Many fans imagine that there is, and it’s possible that GRRM is imagining it, too, but if so, then he has not given us much in the way of firm evidence for this. The Game of Thrones is played at all levels, after all: and the Northerners almost certainly are all looking at this as an opportunity to elevate their houses over the others in the upcoming years.

      If the Northerners are to organize, then they need someone to step up and turn all of their individual causes into a cause. Moreover, and purely from the perspective of storytelling, this has to be a challenge for one of the main characters. Ringo Starr sang it best: “It don’t come easy”!

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    21. Maggie,

      Where did you read these “spoilers?” I know there’s been some fan speculation along those lines, but there’s a big difference between fan speculation and spoilers.

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    22. SimpleWatcher,
      The only thing I find incredibly boring is people trying to pit both Stark sisters against each other.

      WalterHarrow: I hope this is true but I really don’t believe anything Sophie Turner says anymore

      I’m quite sure Sophie’s remarks about Sansa becoming a player in S5 were made very early (July 2014?) probably after having read the scripts up to Ep5. IIRC she never mentioned something similar during the real promo campaign. After filmimg was done, most of what she said, was related to the rape scene.

      On Sansa’s future:
      I want to point out that we’ve never seen Sansa on her own as her own person not trying to play some role in order to please everyone!

      So I don’t think, it’s that hard to make Sansa believably take charge of her own destiny after all she went through. I mean Daeny went from timid bystander to slapping Viserys in how many episodes? Sansa’s not that stupid girl from AGoT anymore, even if some people still like her to see that way.

      There are a few possibilities what could incite her to take charge.

      For instance, reuniting with Rickon could make her want to take up some kind of Mother/Hand-role for the future Lord of Winterfell.

      I’ve also felt for a while that Brienne meeting Sansa could serve more than having someone physically protect and escort her. Brienne has witnessed Catelyn channeling the „she-wolf“, and risking a stand-off with an important vassal lord, reminding Karstark who she is and trying to make him accept her autority in that situation (basically acting for the King while he was absent). Now, I think after Sansa’s experiences in S5, she’d probably need some emotional support and someone who gives her a bit of a pep talk. Even if Brienne can’t be an exact role model for Sansa, she can motivate her to follow her mothers example and thusly incite a spark inside Sansa.

      I think the question of identity has always been important in Sansa’s arc. And the show hinted at it many times (e.g. Snowcastle scene; “I’m Sansa Stark of Winterfell. You can’t frighten me”). So Sansa trying to reconnect with her lordly heritage and wanting to assume responsibility and help herself and “her people” getting rid of the treacherous Boltons, is IMO very believable after her S5 arc.

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    23. Of all the Stark siblings, Sansa is the one I care least about. My favorite list is
      Jon
      Arya
      Bran
      Robb
      Rickon
      Ghost
      Summer
      Grey Wind
      Nymeria
      Shaggydog
      SANSA.

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    24. phantomstrife,

      Being a stark in the north may be enough to have people want to follow her , and she will probably use all the suffering she has been through as her motivation
      Don’t think it’s that unbelievable

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    25. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      Maggie,

      Where did you read these “spoilers?”I know there’s been some fan speculation along those lines, but there’s a big difference between fan speculation and spoilers.

      Two different people who claimed to work as extra in the bastardbowl wrote the same thing on reddit. They also said other things that seem to be proved by trailers… truth or not we will learn when we watch the episode, but it’s not fan speculation,it was written as a spoiler.

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    26. Maggie,

      Ah, thanks. I put absolutely no stock in “spoilers” by supposed extras posted on reddit. That’s nothing against you, it’s just my approach. I know there were some so-called “leaks” posted on reddit, and those have been debunked. Maybe what you read was something different, and maybe it will turn out to be the case, but if I remember correctly, we had confirmation here

      Rickon is not one of the flayed people on a Bolton cross at the battle, and if Ramsay had Rickon, I’d think he would kill him. As you said, though, time will tell.

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    27. Maggie,

      And they also said things that make no sense. Then they deleted their accounts and haven’t been heard from since. They probably just watched the trailer and read some of the inside stuff then made up a bunch of stuff too.

      edit- I was thinking of the extras that posted on reddit a couple of weeks ago, not months ago.

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    28. Ok, I must start by saying that normally I am not that into the fantasy genre.
      Maybe this is why I like Sansa; she’s the least “fantastic” character, at least among her siblings. She’s a normal person, an ordinary girl. She’s hardly a teenager (ok, she has grown by now) and has had to face all these adversities.
      I bet you, if you had been in her shoes, the shoes of a 13 year old finding herself among her enemies and with her protectors killed off, you wouldn’t have been much more heroic.
      For a young girl in a Middle Ages set, just surviving is a big deal.
      Arya is an exciting character, but a totally unrealistic one. I don’t complain, since this is a fantasy show after all, but my guess is in real world she wouldn’t have made it for an hour after that guy from the Watch got killed.

      As for Rickon, I guess we need to see him this season. I hope they won’t kill him off, but not even mentioning him for one more season just won’t do.

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    29. Kargaryen,

      Exactly, I remember one interview she gave last year about season 5 where she said:
      ”This season you”ll get to see her using her sexuality to control people” and well, we all know how that turned out, that’s why i don’t give much credit to these interviews.

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    30. Yaga: Show Tormund has kids though, I think? He kissed some in Hardhome.

      I just watched that last night and I don’t remember him kissing kids. He did say that Jon was prettier than his daughters, though. Besides, he can have kids and be free to marry!

      Now, I do not know if Sansa is bearish enough for Tormund, but my thought is that after all that Sansa has been through, she deserves one of the only men we’ve seen in this world who understands the concept of “foreplay”….. 😀

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    31. Wylie,

      Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      The one that i read more recently was by some guy who said Ramsay tells Rickon to run to Jon and then throws arrows to him, or something like that i can’t remember it 100%. He didn’t know if Rickon survives or not, but he wasn’t on the cross. He said something that the powers of Boltons cycle Jon and Tormund and then Sansa comes with LF and Vale army and saves the day. I don’t know how reliable this is, but i remember someone else before him also said that Sansa is with LF and Vale army.

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    32. Brandon:
      Yaga,

      There is a very good theory that the children of Alysane Mormont are Tormunds.

      Wut? Do you have any links? I love the ladies of House Mormont and would love to read about this. Off to google..

      Also, a friendly PSA to all that one can love Arya AND Sansa. You don’t have to choose. 😀

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    33. I’m very interested in what her character will do this season. I really hope it’s as good as Sophie says it is and that her character will finally grow and kick some ass, even if it’s with words.

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    34. Sophie Turner one year alo: “despite being a prisoner again, [Sansa] plays it out very differently this time compared to before. She tries to take command and begins to manipulate the people who are keeping her prisoner. ”

      To me, it makes sense that Sansa isn’t going to go from victim to master manipulator that quickly. between Kings Landing and Winterfell all she had done was learn about Baylish’s schemes and lie for him well, she started sort of seducing him / trying to manipulate him. It makes sense that she would fail with the Boltons. She is no Margery. She’s a bit more like Cersei in this regard. She can’t hide her true feelings toward ppl she despises.

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    35. Pretty sure what Sophie meant by “taking charge” is:

      Sansa becomes a red priestess of R’hllor and burns Rickon alive

      Not because she has to, but because she wants to.

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    36. Maggie,

      Oh yeah, got it. I remember that one. The account was deleted shortly after.

      True or not, I sadly find myself in the camp of those who think Rickon will not survive the Battle for Winterfell. If he does, he’ll probably be delt with by Baelish, because he’s an inconvienience for his plans installing Sansa as Wardeness.
      I really don’t want lil’Ricky to die, but I think he is indeed a Shaggydog story. It’ll be sad for all of us who expect him to save the day by storming in with an army of unicorns and become the ultimate Wolfking in the North.

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    37. Laura:
      Also, a friendly PSA to all that one can love Arya AND Sansa. You don’t have to choose.

      Yeah, this. Sansa and Arya teaming up would be great, and show real character progression from their childish animosity in S1. I think this is actually where the narrative is heading – Sansa will apparently engage in a bit of killing this season, while Arya will see You Know What. As I said before, this should help the pair of them get into each other’s skins!

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    38. Sansa’s thoughts and actions have been those of a young girl with a foolishly romantic view of the world. She’s made repeated poor choices that have resulted in the deaths of others, and so far, I don’t think her redemption arc is clearly established.

      The show-Sansa’s rape, while horrific, didn’t do anything to elevate her to the next level of Stark honor or sacrifice. And nothing in the book Sansa’s journey has either. She just hasn’t taken that step of taking an action for the greater good. (I get that the show-Sansa sort of married Bolton for that reason, but it was a LF suggestion/plot, not hers.)

      Each of the main characters must travel a story arc and rise from the ashes, but from the moment that Sansa’s moral weakness resulted in the death of her dire wolf, I’ve always doubted she would make it to the end.

      Sacrifice and suffering are not enough to make her a hero… The hero’s journey has a pattern, so if GRRM is following that path for Sansa, she’s only halfway there.

      A long way of saying I need to see her truly act on behalf of others before I can warm to her any further as a character.

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    39. If it wasn’t for the fact that Liam spoke a lot about Sansa’s storyline this season I would not believe her that much.

      Also Javi (the guy from L7R) also said that Sansa will get a more commanding role this season and her character will evolve in a satisfying way

      #teamStark!

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    40. Sansa’s role since her father’s death has been to keep her mouth shut and smile for the people she despises or distrusts, because they have power over her.
      She also is good at pleasing people and prefers to win their love over making them fear her. When Cersei told her that people should fear their queen, she reflected that she would rather make them love her. When Cersei abandoned her guests during the battle, Sansa stood by their side, helped them calm down and lifted up their spirits – even though she was lying to them. I suspect this foreshadows her future role: She isn’t a master manipulator or a devious strategist, but she is good at pleasing people and making them like her – I think this season she will try to win the northerners favor and to rally them to fight for her cause, and she will also play martyr to make them want to fight for her. (not that she has to fake that part, tbh).
      I also think she doesn’t like or trusts Littlefinger anymore, but she will mask her true feelings once she learns he’s in charge of the Vale army. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if he wants to go against Jon because he wants the North all for himself, and Sansa has to pretend to like him or even bribe him with a promise of marriage.

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    41. Demonmonkey,

      I don’t think Sansa will become some sort of a master manipulator and I don’t think she will need to. The North will rally after her simply because she’s a Stark especially if she has Jon by her side. The only tricky thing she will have to do in Season 6 will be bringing Littlefinger and the Vale army to the battle against the Boltons. This might be not that easy if the Starks will be outnumbered etc., but also not that hard, because Littlefinger had similar intentions already in S5.

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    42. I think that her arc is believable. Season one she is obnoxious. Season 2 more sedate and sympathetic, but not strong. Season 3 more mature, learning from Marge and Shae. Season 4 learning from Littlefinger and finally starting to manipulate (a little). Season 5 she really tries hard, but uses the wrong approach (but really, what approach will work w a sadist?). If she finally comes out on top this season I think it will be because she has learned from her mistakes and it is on her terms. If we had been more careful readers, we would not have expected so much more from her last season. Also, last seasons horrors I’m particular, along with her stronger attitude, finally began to endear her to the viewers.

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    43. For all the complaints on changes, I’d bet good money on season 6 ending in the same spot as Winds will end in this arc at east. Just a drastically different path.

      In Winds resurrected Jon attacks with the Wildlings. Littlefinger attacks with the Vale with the intention of installing Sansa. Davos finds Rickon but finds him corrupted by Skaggosi and now a total nutcase. Jon/Wildlings and other Northern Houses and Vale Army depose the Boltons, Winterfell restored. Jon/Sansa reunite. Davos learns what happened and barely escapes from the crazed Skaggosi and heads to Winterfell to serve Jon and give him and Sansa the news that Rickon is lost, his mind gone, ending his book arc. Since the show never introduced the Skaggosi they’ve decided to kill off Rickon, ending his show arc. So similar results, characters wind up in the same place.

      That’s my ideas anyway on how it may play out.

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    44. Maid of Tits and Dragons,
      Talking about journey’s. Here’s a pattern for the Heroine’s journey.
      http://head-heart-health.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/heroines-journey.jpg

      I think Sansa ended last season at No. 6 and starts the upcoming season with No. 7.

      And about the morality question. The Direwolf issue is a good example for being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ned explained it very well to Arya on the show why Sansa lied.

      Also, we’ve seen Sansa do good for others. Vincent Stark mentioned the calming the women during the siege. There is also the saving of Dontos and her wanting to give bread to the poor. In the books, IMO it is more obvious that she’s compassionate and is heading to become some sort of motherly protector figure (see also the relationship with Sweetrobin or running the household).

      The idea of Sansa needing a redemption arc is beyond me.

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    45. I feel like I’m going to have a hard time believing in Sansa’s arc this season. She’s going to be handed the north and probably rally some northern houses to her cause and while it may be great to see a Stark get some redemption I just don’t see it being believable she has shown nothing to this point in the story to warrant such a huge jump in power.

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    46. Louis,

      I don’t agree. Now Sansa has a very essential motivation to fight: she just learned that her two younger brothers are alive but lost somewhere with no-one to take care of them. It would be a game-changer for any woman, because women mostly discover their inner strengths when they are put in mother positions.

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    47. As far as the North is concerned, Sansa married Ramsay voluntarily, allying herself with the family that slaughtered thousands of northerners at the Red Wedding. She will be considered guilty of betraying her family and becoming a traitor to the North. “Littlefinger fooled me,” isn’t going to cut it for an excuse. Unless that just gets hand-waved away by D&D. Will they deal with the results of s05 realistically, including Sansa’s trauma, or just give her plot gifts? Any predictions?

      And yes, I’m afraid Sophie is not the most reliable reporter.

      (For the record, I really like book!Sansa’s character and story. As for the show, I found her decision in 503 to be fundamentally not believable, and thus the entire plot line was defective.)

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    48. Inga,

      In that respect I agree it will be a lovely story but this whole Queen in the North business is silly to me. Shes going to rally an army to die for her and be installed as Queen in the North all because her last name is Stark? I personally need more especially if Jon is dead.

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    49. Inga: I don’t think Sansa will become some sort of a master manipulator and I don’t think she will need to. The North will rally after her simply because she’s a Stark especially if she has Jon by her side.

      Sansa might do better without Jon at her side. Jon will have big strikes against him in the eyes of Northerners: after all, letting the Wildlings into Westeros was “nothing less” than an act of treason to quote on book character. Add to this that Jon should be viewed as a deserter from the Watch, and he might not be the best endorsement for Sansa Regent Queen in the North!

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    50. Inga,

      I fully agree. My fangirl endgame fantasy is Sansa as the ‘virgin’ queen (unmarried and childless) but discreetly maintaining a lover and unassuming, politically insignificant Pod it is. He is her age and the strong, brave and gentle guy Ned wanted for her in S1. Not to mention he is most loyal and a king in the sack to boot (if the prostitutes are to be believed).

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    51. I might be the only one who loves and loves to hate every character in the show. Maybe they’re not perfect but still I really like everyone in the show.

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    52. Louis,

      Exactly. The lords of the north will follow strength. Sansa has none, shows no interest in military matters, and is married to a hated Bolton. I wouldn’t follow her. Where would she lead me?

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    53. Inga: because women mostly discover their inner strengths when they are put in mother positions.

      I’m sorry to pick out just the above part of your post to quote, and maybe I’m misinterpreting your words, but are you saying women cannot and/or do not mostly discover their inner strengths unless/until they’re put in mother positions? If that is the case, I could not disagree with you more. If that isn’t the case and I misinterpreted what you wrote, my apologies.

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    54. Louis: Shes going to rally an army to die for her and be installed as Queen in the North all because her last name is Stark?

      I find that funny, because I think if it was Rickon, I’m quite sure no one would question why he shoud be King just for rallying an army and being a Stark.

      Sansa has an entire season to step up and evolve, maybe instigate the insurrection. People grow with the tasks with which they are confronted.

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    55. Wimsey,

      Well, Wimsey, it depends. If the Northern lords assume the Boltons as the main threat at the moment, which would be quite realistic taking into account that Ramsay has already flayed one of them and Roose arranged assassination of many others, they may quite easily accept the wildlings and welcome them as expendables (usually people become merciful to their defeated enemies, at least as long as they make no new problems). And resurrected Jon would be seen as a miracle, not as a deserter etc. Basically Sansa and Jon are necessary for the anti-Bolton conspiracy to succeed only because there is too much rivalry between different houses and they need some neutral figures with a right family name to suppress that.

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    56. Wylie,

      So wonderfully put. I agree, I want a gradual process of leadership but Sansa will be damn good leader, having learnt from the biggest players. It’s funny how as a character she has and continues to be undermined, time will tell but I suspect when she makes BIG decisions people won’t know how to stomach it.

      The whole Northern storyline is going to deliciously good.

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    57. Inga,

      Are u joking? I hope you are joking. It may be true that mothers have super human powers, but the statement u made is very essentializing. Women find strength and purpose in lots of ways. Like men. And Sansa isn’t their mother. That said, I think that knowing some of her family is still alive would be heartening for her, and you may be right that it will give her a new purpose.

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    58. Nymeria Warrior Queen: I’m sorry to pick out just the above part of your post to quote, and maybe I’m misinterpreting your words, but are you saying women cannot and/or do not mostly discover their inner strengths unless/until they’re put in mother positions?If that is the case, I could not disagree with you more.If that isn’t the case and I misinterpreted what you wrote, my apologies.

      Well, let me put it otherwise. Strength can be discovered in many different ways, but those who are initially week and tend to rely on the protection of the stronger ones mostly discover their strength only when circumstances force them to take responsibility for someone even weaker. Motherhood a standard situation of such kind for most of women, but not the only one, of cause. And for the sake of equality I would say that the same rule works for men too. Look at Sam – he was a coward and relied on Jon’s protection, but when he had to protect Gilly and her baby he managed to kill a White Walker out of the blue.

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    59. Wylie,

      They already have Rickon and they havnt done it. But they will for Sansa because shes older? It wouldn’t make sense for Rickon or Sansa IMO. Unless Sansa is travelling with Littlefinger promising support from the Vale to these Northern Lords.

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    60. Anon,

      Yup my problem with the Sansa Queen in the North thing is someone has to literally put her on the Throne in the north even if she grows as a leader she cant take anything herself she cant fight any battles she cant create any strategy. All she would be is a figurehead. After she becomes Queen in the North someone has to babysit her until she has grown into her position. Sorry I’m not buying it and its terrible television IMO.

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    61. Rickon is conveniently in the hands of the Umbers who are conveniently allying with the Boltons. He will conveniently die to make way for Sansa to be installed as the ruler of Winterfell and subsequently the North as QiTN. It all falls into place for her. She will be handed so many plot gifts in s6.

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    62. Yawn. Feel like I’ve heard these types of stories about Sansa’s journey before, only for her to be the rag that wipes some nasty character’s ass. Surely they will actually keep true to their word and make her arc interesting this year, because I’m tired of having to skip forward past every scene Sansa’s in when rewatching episodes.

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    63. Ibbison:
      As far as the North is concerned, Sansa married Ramsay voluntarily, allying herself with the family that slaughtered thousands of northerners at the Red Wedding. She will be considered guilty of betraying her family and becoming a traitor to the North.

      She will. And that’s the reason why the most powerful houses of the North, Umbers and Karstarks, won’t follow Jon and Sansa.

      But some lords from the North will have a different opinion, like Hornwoods, Mormonts, Manderlys…

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    64. Inga:
      Wimsey,

      Well, Wimsey, it depends. If the Northern lords assume the Boltons as the main threat at the moment, which would be quite realistic taking into account that Ramsay has already flayed one of them and Roose arranged assassination of many others, they may quite easily accept the wildlings and welcome them as expendables (usually people become merciful to their defeated enemies, at least as long as they make no new problems).

      Some Northern lords will assume the Boltons as the main threat. Hornwoods, Mormonts, Manderlys…

      Umbers and Karstarks will think that the wildlings are the main threat.

      Nothing is simple, and that’s what makes GoT a great show.

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    65. lp,

      I can see this (both book and show). Rickon being “found” is a way to close up lose ends . Robb, Bran and Rickon all have to be accounted for so that Jon and/or Sansa have legit claim on the North.

      I am excited for Sansa’s story this season (though I will admit to being a much bigger fan of Book!Sansa then Show!Sansa) and hope we get to see here at least go along way into coming into her own strength and power

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    66. I think this is a new interview with Isaac Hempstead Wright, or at least an expanded version of the one posted earlier, because I can see some bits I hadn’t picked up on before:

      http://thehoneycombers.com/singapore/hello-honey-an-interview-with-isaac-hempstead-wright-the-actor-playing-bran-stark-on-game-of-thrones/#7LK0QsBSvmOWt1I7.99

      How much of Bran’s future do you know?

      For now, I only know as far as this season. But it’s different for the character, since he can see into the future. I’m sure he knows almost everything, including the ultimate fate of Westeros.

      If Bran does know the ultimate fate of Westeros, I wonder how that would impact his interactions with other characters.

      If Bran leaves the cave, as seems likely, and, say, meets up with Jon, what’s to stop him from telling Jon “you need to do this that and the other to stop the Night’s King from doing this awful thing. But, oh wait, it doesn’t really matter because the Walkers will be in Dorne by the end of the week after leaving a trail of death and destruction.” Or will the future that Bran sees not be set in stone?

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    67. Louis,

      Exactly. She’s not a strategist, she’s not a fighter, she’s not politically savvy. Her manipulation skills are still underdeveloped. All she’s got going for her is her name. But Littlefinger did say that sometimes ‘that’s all one needs’.
      If she suddenly knows how to command people, oversee a military campaign, how to scheme and strategise, instead of being a mascot for the North for the time being, it will feel forced and be fanservice-heavy.

      I have to wonder though. How can the Northern Lords know she’s in fact Sansa Stark? She has no direwolf to prove her word. Why would they believe Littlefinger and a girl that married into the Bolton family? Brienne should also be an unreliable source in their eyes. And they won’t have Rickon to identify her.

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    68. i will not get hyped she dissapoint me too much time i don’t see her as a leader she didn’t show me any hints for that but one thing will make the north rally to her…the name.”stark” nothing more nothing less

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    69. Name *,

      I think IHW is overstating Bran’s powers. That’d be too many convenient plot gifts to give his character. He’d be the omnipotent God, the ultimate deus ex machina. That’s not how Martin rolls.

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    70. Louis,

      First of all, Kudos to you, to call a story arc you havn’t even seen yet bad television. That’s the spirit!

      Secondly, no one said Sansa would become Horde Prime over night. This is a story about character evolution. Also every leader has people to rely on and delegate.

      Except for Daeny of course who took Yunkai and Meereen all by herself by fighting every single soldier with her bare hands 🙂

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    71. Louis,

      I disagree. She could be regent for her brother and rule in his stead. And yes, she might need advisors. But I think that she is going to play an important role in retaking winterfell. And I think D&D will make it good.

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    72. mau,

      You mean in season 1? Most, if not all, of the Lords that were there during King Robert’s visit are likely dead, their Houses are ruled by their successors now. And I doubt all of them came anyway. Was Roose present for example? Don’t recall.
      The Umbers and Karstarks are with the Boltons, so they can’t be there to tell the allies that she’s indeed Sansa Stark. Not like they’re reliable anyway. And did any living Karstark meet her personally? I believe the issue of her identity will just be overlooked out of convenience.

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    73. phantomstrife,

      All good points and I’m willing to give the Show Runners a pass on these finer details not everything needs to be perfect. However I cannot see Sansa convincing these Lords alone she has to be paired with Jon or Littlefinger. If she is with Littlefinger I think she may end of being an adversary to Jon we know he will most likely be concernced with the White Walkers first. I can see them setting them up against Jon with Sansa turning on Littlefinger in a later season.

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    74. I enjoy her arcs. Seeing her start to take control of situations would make it all worth the existence of her past sufferings as what I love to see are before and after long-term exposures to cruelty.

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    75. Wylie,

      I am merely speculating. I agree with what you are saying but there is not enough time to play this game with Sansa its going to be forced and rushed hopefully it turns out well and Ill be the first to admit I was wrong.

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    76. phantomstrife:
      Rickon is conveniently in the hands of the Umbers who are conveniently allying with the Boltons. He will conveniently die to make way for Sansa to be installed as the ruler of Winterfell and subsequently the North as QiTN. It all falls into place for her. She will be handed so many plot gifts in s6.

      Well that is annoying lol.

      phantomstrife:
      Louis,

      I have to wonder though. How can the Northern Lords know she’s in fact Sansa Stark? She has no direwolf to prove her word. Why would they believe Littlefinger and a girl that married into the Bolton family? Brienne should also be an unreliable source in their eyes. And they won’t have Rickon to identify her.

      I’m pretty sure I saw one of the Northen Lords extras, who was in the scene where Grey Wind bit the Greatjon, attend Sansa’s second wedding. He was in the background. I guess news will travel.

      If not then Jon will confirm I guess lol.

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    77. Wylie:
      Louis,
      This is a story about character evolution. Also every leader has people to rely on and delegate.

      Except for Daeny of course who took Yunkai and Meereen all by herself by fighting every single soldier with her bare hands

      Thank you. I am putting all of this resistance down to how unlikeable Sansa was as a girl in season one. In the first season they really pitted her idiocy hard against Arya, who is the little tomboy feminist that so many love. I was totally in that boat. But of course, that is how she was raised. I think everyone has been discounting or not noting the small ways in which Sansa has been developing into a stronger woman. I am actually really invested in her story now. I suspect the setbacks last year may have frustrated those who expected a faster transition, something more like Dany in season one. But it doesn’t mean we can’t expect great things from her eventually. Maybe this season the cards will fall in her favor and she will be in a position of power. And who knows what may happen.

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    78. Flayed Potatoes:

      I’m pretty sure I saw one of the Northen Lords extras, who was in the scene where Grey Wind bit the Greatjon, attend Sansa’s second wedding. He was in the background.

      If not then Jon will confirm I guess lol.

      Maybe that was just them reusing extras lol
      And if he was there, then he was allying with the Boltons. Prolly an Umber or Karstark. No Stark loyalists have been at Winterfell since the Boltons took over.

      Jon confirming her identity would be the only realistic way to handle it. But I think they will just have the Lords not question it at all, because it’s a bothersome plot issue. They will believe her on her word or act like they’ve known her personally. Just like they did with the Boltons last season.

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    79. Louis,

      This is how I see it. She could become a bit of a figurehead but inspire the people to love her. Either as the presumptive Wardeness / Queen in the North or (more likely IMO) as Rickon’s guardian. If she participates this season in retaking Winterfell, which involves learning about warfare and becoming a bit of a leader, and finds ways to circumvent Littlefinger’s influence, then she can become a true leader by season 7 (assuming that she survives). I could even see Jon helping to install her (monarchy is a family game, if you haven’t noticed) and then heading south to muster an army to defend the wall. Or on some other military campaign against the WW.

      I’m not saying this is how it will turn out. But the truth is that plenty of historical queens came to power through regency. They were likely trained to be the wives of kings or noblemen and to administer the household (like Sansa). They weren’t trained in war. And yet these women did lead armies in defense of their minor children or younger male siblings.

      The other possibility is that she be married to a man (Littlefinger? ewwww. Tormund, hmmmm. Maybe some other lucky chap) who can do the military work for her. This is another common model, especially for women like Sansa who have a birthright and end up being heiresses.

      Queens like Dany–who don’t marry and have children– were the rarity. Obviously it helps her that she has dragons.

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    80. Louis:
      Wylie,

      I am merely speculating. I agree with what you are saying but there is not enough time to play this game with Sansa its going to be forced and rushed hopefully it turns out well and Ill be the first to admit I was wrong.

      There is not enough time? There are 3 seasons left.

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    81. Martin said the ending of the saga was bittersweet. Sansa getting to be Queen would be sweet.

      I suspect it’s not going to happen.

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    82. phantomstrife: Maybe that was just them reusing extras lol
      And if he was there, then he was allying with the Boltons. Prolly an Umber or Karstark. No Stark loyalists have been at Winterfell since the Boltons took over.

      Jon confirming her identity would be the only realistic way to go. But I think they will just have the Lords not question it at all, because it’s a bothersome plot issue. They will believe her on her word or act like they’ve known her personally. Just like they did with the Boltons last season.

      I don’t think so because in the scene with the Greatjon he was at the same table with him and Robb, so he must have some important position. It could be some minor Northern lord for all we know (or even a Karstark or Umber). But I assume the Boltons would want to make the marriage known to cement their claim on Winterfell, so news will travel about Sansa being there either way. This is why I too think they won’t drag this part too long.

      It’s kind of ironic how the one whose identity as a Stark is 100% verifiable right now is Jon.

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    83. Flayed Potatoes: I don’t think so because in the scene with the Greatjon he was at the same table with him and Robb, so he must have some important position. It could be some minor Northern lord for all we know (or even a Karstark or Umber). But I assume the Boltons would want to make the marriage known to cement their claim on Winterfell, so news will travel about Sansa being there either way. This is why I too think they won’t drag this part too long.

      Can we have some pictures if it’s not too much hassle? I’m curious about this.

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    84. richarddecredico:
      Martin said the ending of the saga was bittersweet. Sansa getting to be Queen would be sweet.

      I suspect it’s not going to happen.

      And the bitter part will be that the half of her family is dead. Maybe even Rickon.

      So I think it will happen. This is not a nihilist story.

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    85. Louis,

      Hmm, I really have a hard time understanding your objections. As I pointed out above, Daeny went from timid bystander to slapping Viserys in four episodes. Didn’t feel rushed, so why is Sansa taking action for herself and her country after what she’s lived through such a huge step that needs to be set up for three seasons? Knowing that she still has a family is a huge game changer for her and motivation to step up, as others have pointed out before. Feels organic to me.

      Also, we already know from Lyanna Mormont’s letter that there are Houses who only accept the Starks as Wardens of the North. So maybe she rallies them in Rickon’s name and only becomes Wardeness in the very last episode after Rickon has died in the Battle…

      And to the question of how anyone would recognize her. Well, having been raised as a lady, she knows the history of all the Houses and most probably some insider information about some relations. So if her identity was to be questioned, I could imagine a scene like Cat in the inn seizing Tyrion when she calls upon her fathers bannermen. You know, naming the sigils and telling some insider story about how grandfather Rickard Stark got saved from a wild boar attack by a younger son of House Hornwood, so they became best friens and that’s why Starks and Hornwoods are so close or something like that (obviously I just made that up, but you get my point 🙂 )

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    86. I think it will really be in the spirit of this story to have a Sansa as ruler of the North, and not a fan favorites like Jon, Arya or Robb.

      Sansa was an underdog, beaten and underestimated by both the audience and the characters in this story. But she will rise like a phoenix from the ashes.

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    87. Flayed Potatoes,

      The thing is why would Stark loyalists believe Boltons and their allies? There’s no reason for them to. Of course Roose would want to cement his claim on Winterfell and the North by way of his son’s marriage to a Stark. Hence we have fArya in Winterfell subplot in the books and Sansa’s Winterfell arc in the show. Northern Lords have all the reasons to suspect Roose would do whatever it takes to achieve his goal, even going so far as to pretend to have a Stark girl to suit his agenda. That’s exactly how he plays it in the book after all.

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    88. Demon Monkey,

      Agreed. And I also want to believe Bryan Cogman who said that her story is long ongoing and isn’t over yet. So yeah, I admit that the evolution of the Stark children is still my most favorite aspect of the story and IMO for Sansa to enter the great game in S6 with two more seasons to come is very exciting (although we know the stakes, when you play the game of thrones 🙂 )

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    89. Wylie,

      And from the leaks from E1 (interview with Alfie Allen) we know that it won’t be rushed.

      Sansa, logically, won’t be in a very good form at the beginning of S6, after everything that had happened to her in S5.

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    90. mau: And the bitter part will be that the half of her family is dead. Maybe even Rickon.

      Well said. I think, if she takes the seat in Winterfell at the end of S6, it will most probably be the result of Rickon being dead. So yeah, not so triumphant. More a duty with a heavy cost.

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    91. phantomstrife:
      Flayed Potatoes,

      The thing is why would Stark loyalists believe Boltons and their allies? There’s no reason for them to. Of course Roose would want to cement his claim on Winterfell and the North by way of his son’s marriage to a Stark. Hence we have fArya in Winterfell subplot in the books and Sansa’s Winterfell arc in the show. Northern Lords have all the reasons to suspect Roose would do whatever it takes to achieve his goal, even going so far as to pretend to have a Stark girl to suit his agenda. That’s exactly how he plays it in the book after all.

      Good point, but I imagine that unlike fArya, Sansa would know some information about her family history or that of the other Northern houses that can prove her identity. She did it before in the Vale, so it could work again.

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    92. mau,

      It might be. That would be trope breaking for the genre.

      Having Sansa ascend to the Throne would be rather with keeping the tenets of the genre that existed before Martin.

      Either way, as long as its entertaining. That’s the main, and really only, goal.

      Also, it might be that the entire feudal system is destroyed and familial lines are eschewed.

      Sansa then loses her main ‘claim’ to the title.

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    93. Darkrobin,

      Yes. They(Manderly, Hornwood, Jon,..) could be enough proof for her identity.

      But as it was said above she could tell some insider story about them to prove that she is a Stark.

      And we could also assume that the Northern lords weren’t visiting WF during Ned Starks’s rule alone. They could bring their sons with them.

      Honestly, this is just a pointless nitpick from you.

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    94. Calling it now: Sansa will end the season as Queen in the North (which many Sansa fans will like) and Littlefinger will end up as her de facto Hand of the Queen (which many Sansa fans will hate.)

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    95. mau:
      Darkrobin,

      Yes. They could be enoughproof for her identity.

      But as I was said above she could tell some insider story about them to prove that she is a Stark.

      But we could also assume that the Northern lords weren’t visiting WF during Ned Starks’s rule alone. They could bring their sons with them.

      Honestly, this is just a pointless nitpick form you.

      I agree. They would surely visit Winterfell for special events like a harvest feast and to swear fealty to their liege lord (like Meera and Jojen do in the books instead of Howland). It’s not uncommon. Idk why this is such a pressing concern. The plot has to go forward and it will.

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    96. George,

      I think LF will die in E10.

      I didn’t think that that will happen before, because I thought that Sansa and LF will be reunited only after the battle. But we had many reports suggesting that they will reunite earlier, so I think there is enough time for their relationship to end.

      And my reasoning is simple. After the Bolton’s defeat, the North will need a new antagonists, and WW will fill that role. I think that LF’s position in the North is too weak for him to play the main villain role. Sansa and Jon will be reunited, the Starks will return to power, the Starks will be surrounded by their loyalists. I don’t think that LF can do much in those circumstances.

      And also I don’t think that he has a role to play in war with WW. I can’t imagine him in the North, when they come.

      For me, LF’s position is too weak to buy him as a credible treat for the Starks in S7. And what he would even do then? Sansaa and LF will have their private war while Jon and the rest are preparing for the WW’s invasion?

      The only option is Sansa’s and Lf’s war in the Riverlands. Maybe Sansa will want to retake Riverrun and defeat Freys? But I think that’s Arya’s plot with Blackfish in S7.

      LF will die in the moment when he thinks he took everything, that he achieved ultimate victory and then everything will be taken from him. He obviously can’t take the IT, so taking WF is the highest point for his character.

      It makes sense to me that he will die after that. Killing him in the Riveralnds would be anticlimactic IMO.

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    97. phantomstrife,

      How can the Northern Lords know she’s in fact Sansa Stark?

      Many of them will have seen her as a girl and she’s only been gone a few years–and no, they aren’t all dead, and even if the “Lords” were all killed, there are still Ladies, knights, servants, Maesters, and commoners throughout the North who would have seen the Stark children many times. Additionally, while Arya and Jon resemble the Starks, Sansa has the Tully looks and her mother’s red hair. If Theon is recognized despite his abuse and torture, I believe they might spot Sansa, too. (Probably another reason to drop the Jeyne Poole substitution from book to show.)
      I suppose if all else fails, she could pull out her passport. 😉

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    98. mau,

      From your lips to D&D’s ears. They might keep him for the first half of season 7 so Sansa can take him down, but I can’t imagine him commanding armies against the WW lol.

      I hope Sansa and Jon don’t forget to take his Valyrian steel dagger (if he still has it with him).

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    99. richarddecredico: Martin said the ending of the saga was bittersweet. Sansa getting to be Queen would be sweet.

      Again, not necessarily. Londo Mollari was Emperor of the Centauri at the end of Babylon 5: but that was far from “sweet.” The alternatives here are not “lived happily ever after” and “they all died horribly”: there are a lot of intermediate scenarios.

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    100. Flayed Potatoes:
      mau,

      From your lips to D&D’s ears. They might keep him for the first half of season 7 so Sansa can take him down, but I can’t imagine him commanding armies against the WW lol.

      Killing him at the beginning of S7 would also be anticlimactic. End of S6 is a good place for him to die. Just like Tywin’s death. Or Jon’s death. His death won’t be like Joffrey’s (first half of the season), because I don’t expect that his death will create a domino effect.

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    101. mau: Killing him at the beginning of S7 would also be anticlimactic. End of S6 is a good place for him to die. Just like Tywin’s death. Or Jon’s death. His death won’t be like Joffrey’s (first half of the season), because I don’t expect that his death will create a domino effect.

      I really hope you’re right.

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    102. Maid of Tits and Dragons: Many of them will have seen her as a girl and she’s only been gone a few years–and no, they aren’t all dead, and even if the “Lords” were all killed, there are still Ladies, knights, servants, Maesters, and commoners throughout the North who would have seen the Stark children many times.

      The opposite is true: most of them will never have seen Sansa before, or met her only once. This is not an “information age” world, and nor is it a world in which people get out much. Most of the northerners would never have been to Winterfell or even outside of their Lord’s lands; and there is no indication that Ned took Sansa with him when he toured the North.

      Instead, this is a world where they could probably pass off a steward’s daughter as a lord’s based on the most superficial of similarities.

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    103. Flayed Potatoes,

      Well I was right that the Boltons will defeat Stannis, and that Jon will fight Ramsay. 😀

      And I was right when I said that we will see the end of Boltons-Stannis conflict in S5, because it really dosen’t make any sense to leave that for S6.

      And I don’t think that it makes much sense to leave LF for S7. His position is weak, they would just drag that for no reason. I think it makes more sense to kill him now, before everyone in the audience realises how weak he really is.

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    104. I don’t know why, but i am really excited to see Smalljon Umber. I hope the Umbers won’t side with the Boltons, hopefully they will actually turn on them when the time is right during the battle of the bastards.

      15 more dayssssss.

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    105. Like it or not, unless some amazing advisor who knows all about Westeros comes out of the woodwork, Sansa needs LF just as much if not more than he needs her.

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    106. mau: Killing him at the beginning of S7 would also be anticlimactic. End of S6 is a good place for him to die.

      The “why” of Littlefinger still is one of the big unexplained mysteries of the tale. GRRM has something up his sleeve for LF: the seemingly confusing and contradictory probably are masking some agenda and some goal. My bet is that we do not learn exactly what this is until the final act.

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    107. phantomstrife:
      mau,

      You mean in season 1? Most, if not all, of the Lords that were there during King Robert’s visit are likely dead, their Houses are ruled by their successors now. And I doubt all of them came anyway. Was Roose present for example? Don’t recall.
      The Umbers and Karstarks are with the Boltons, so they can’t be there to tell the allies that she’s indeed Sansa Stark. Not like they’re reliable anyway. And did any living Karstark meet her personally? I believe the issue of her identity will just be overlooked out of convenience.

      Lord Royce knows, the townspeople know and if Ghost or Shaggydog are there, see what happens to anyone who attacks a Stark, they know their sister.

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    108. Connor: I hope the Umbers won’t side with the Boltons, hopefully they will actually turn on them when the time is right during the battle of the bastards.

      I would not count on that. On the show we are only told that the Northerners in general hate and fear the Wildlings, and that the reason why the North is wide open for settling is that the Wildings have made it uninhabitable. The books gives more specifics that are relevant:

      Jon tells Stannis that if Stannis tries to march an Wildling army on Winterfell, then the Umbers will attack him. The Umbers have been particularly hard hit by Wildlings, and at least one daughter of the ruling Umbers was stolen during a Wildling raid.

      Something that gets forgotten by too many is that the grievances against the Wildlings are far older and far deeper than are the grievances against the Boltons.

      What I think is more apt to happen is that the Bastard Bowl is going to be a three-way affair: the Boltons + many Northern Houses will be fighting both Wildlings and some other Northern Houses, but the Wildlings and rebel houses will not be allied: they will just both be fighting the Boltons in the same place.

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    109. Wimsey,

      Not the information age? Well aren’t you clever…
      I stand by the way both the show and book have chosen to represent the kingdoms and the era. Families do know each other, not everyone who ever saw Sansa is dead, and she has enough similarities to the Tullys to match a superficial inspection. She also has enough information and knowledge to answer any and all questions regarding her background and the history of those in the North, as well as King’s Landing.

      Since the show runners abandoned the Jeyne Poole twist, it’s an absurd argument to suddenly act as if identity theft is a major impediment to Sansa’s claim. Not to mention, throughout the books and show, the fictional GoT world has consistently accepted that most characters are who they claim to be, just on their word–even when they are later revealed to have lied (Ser Bariston).

      In my opinion, the biggest drawback to the prediction of Sansa’s newfound leadership is the Cinderella mentality she’s displayed up until now. If they want to convince me she’s got mad skills at motivating others to work on behalf of the Starks/North/Greater good, then they’re going to have to work harder.

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    110. Maid of Tits and Dragons,

      I doubt that any of the Stark children had been beyond Winterfell and its premises before the beginning of the story. It was actually unusual for Ned not to have Robb and Jon fostered out as it’s a fairly common practice in Westeros. Especially his bastard ‘son’. But that might have something to do with RLJ. And if Ned wasn’t willing to send Jon out to one of the Northern Houses, there’s no way Catelyn would have agreed for Robb to be sent out while Jon stayed in WF.

      The Lords who might have come to WF during the early years of Sansa’s life would likely only take a handful of trusted companions with many of them prolly dead already. And there’s no guarantee they’d meet with Sansa up close and long enough to be able to recognise her years later. And her appearance has changed over time anyway.

      Her knowing some things would be an insufficient reason for me to believe her. How much does she know anyway? She had a sheltered childhood.

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    111. mau: She will. And that’s the reason why the most powerfulhouses of the North, Umbers and Karstarks, won’t follow Jon and Sansa.

      Why would people who considered Sansa a traitor for marrying into the Boltons then join the Boltons?

      phantomstrife:
      I doubt that any of the Stark children had been beyond Winterfell and its premises before the beginning of the story.

      Arya visited White Harbor twice with Ned, per her POV.

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    112. Sean C.,

      I don’t recall that. Then again I didn’t pay much attention to her arc and read the books once years ago, so there’s that.

      But that’s Arya. It still doesn’t mean Sansa went anywhere before going to King’s Landing. Refresh my memory if I’m wrong on that.

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    113. phantomstrife,

      Stupid but honest question here. Why would they know Jon and not Sansa? Have they never visited their liege lord and not met his daughter? She was present at the party when king Robert visited, quiet a rambunctious party btw. So wouldn’t she have been present when her father’s vassals visited? Why would she need her direwolf, a pet, to identify her?

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    114. phantomstrife,

      Although I’m not a particular Sansa fan, you’re creating a fantasy outside the scope of GRRM’s content to support a nonsensical argument.
      This is merely your opinion and not supported by anything in the books or show:

      The Lords who might have come to WF during the early years of Sansa’s life would likely only take a handful of trusted companions with many of them prolly dead already. And there’s no guarantee they’d meet with Sansa up close and long enough to be able to recognise her years later.

      Her education is well documented as is her experience of meeting Lords from the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale. The Starks had both a Maester and a Septa. As a young lady of a great house, it would be a requirement as part of her education to learn the histories of the other great houses–and again, Sansa has demonstrated her knowledge of the Stark/northern history (on page and in show).

      This is just a silly point of contention you’ll have to continue arguing over on your own.

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    115. phantomstrife:
      Maid of Tits and Dragons,
      The Lords who might have come to WF during the early years of Sansa’s life would likely only take a handful of trusted companions with many of them prolly dead already. And there’s no guarantee they’d meet with Sansa up close and long enough to be able to recognise her years later. And her appearance has changed over time anyway.

      Her knowing some things would be an insufficient reason for me to believe her. How much does she know anyway? She had a sheltered childhood.

      Well, if Rickon is somehow present and acknowledges her as “sister!”, that would settle it, no?

      Alternatively, if Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale are up North much sooner than anticipated, they could acknowledge her as Sansa Stark in front of whomever…

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    116. Sean C.,

      They will consider Sansa a political whore. She was married with the Lannister then with the Bolton, and now she is creating an alliance with the wildlings.

      She has also run away from her husband, and her duty was to stay by his side.

      In their eyes, she is just not a credible person.

      Even if they were loyal to the Starks, Sansa is just disgrace to her father’s memory.

      Choosing between Sansa and Ramsay, for them, is choosing between two evils. But Ramsay is at leats fighting against the wildlings.

      But this is my reasoning, before S6. It can be something completely different.

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    117. George:
      Calling it now: Sansa will end the season as Queen in the North (which many Sansa fans will like) and Littlefinger will end up as her de facto Hand of the Queen (which many Sansa fans will hate.)

      Yes, that’s exactly what I too think will happen. But LF will divide his time between the North and the Vale, since he is “uncle” to SweetRobin. Rickon Stark is definitely a goner this season.

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    118. I’m a bit late on this, but Wimsey has given voice to my feelings.

      We’ve already seen Sansa take care of herself in Season 5. In King’s Landing she’s always had a saviour when things got bad (and I agree, that was boring), but at Winterfell she’s been actively trying to get out and take care of herself. I’m looking forward to seeing this evolve further in Season 6.

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    119. phantomstrife:
      Sean C.,

      It still doesn’t mean Sansa went anywhere before going to King’s Landing. Refresh my memory if I’m wrong on that.

      In the show they can say that Sansa visited every single castle in the North and that won’t contradict with what we already know from the show.

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    120. Redxgod,

      I did…and I hope she continues to grow. She’s just not there for me yet. I’m hoping she really steps it up, but her background wasn’t written to equip her with the tools she needs, in the way it was laid out for other characters–she never seems to have had an interest in learning the “boy” skills. She’s getting lesson in manipulation from LF, and in KL she’s seen women yield power in many different ways. So maybe this year she’ll get into situations that will give her some strategies on a grander scale. It’s ironic to think how much she could have learned from Tyrion.

      I’ve always been of the mind set her fate was sealed when Lady died. (LOL…and trust me when I say I was shocked it was Robb who died first!)

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    121. mau,

      Yes, but everyone knows she was forced to marry Tyrion.

      And regarding the Ramsay issue, she could lie and say she was trying to rally the Vale to her cause, but then the Boltons found out her hideout and kidnapped her, forcing her to marry Ramsay.

      I don’t see why the lords of the North would believe the Boltons over her.

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    122. mau:
      George,

      And my reasoning is simple. After the Bolton’s defeat, the North will need a new antagonists, and WW will fill that role. I think that LF’s position in the North is too weak for him to play the main villain role.

      Which is why GRRM is keeping LF/Sansa south, involved in some marriage side plot. I think they will be more connected with the KL/Aegon/Tyrells story than the North. LF/Sansa may show up in the North with their food supplies at the very end when Jon and Co. are fighting the Others. Sometimes I even doubt that they go North at all. LF in the North makes no sense to me and his character is too closely tied to Sansa.

      The show has moved both characters North and connected them to Jon, Stannis and Theon’s Northern plot. They may have Sansa rally the North (Unnecessary in the books since the Northern lords are already rebelling) and take over Rickon’s story at Winterfell. I doubt Rickon dies in the books, but I don’t see him surviving on the show. On the show, Sansa >>>>>Rickon. In the books, Rickon maybe more important than Sansa, being the last male Stark heir capable of having children, and possible future KITN. It’s also altogether possible that Bran returns to WF and takes over as well.

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    123. While this would probably fit better over on the latest Bran thread, I figure more people will see this here. It looks like Yahoo is starting their own countdown to Season 6. Today looked like the first installment, and while there really wasn’t anything noteworthy in the text of the article (although there was something about fans and Cersei imbibing which made me chuckle), I thought this gif was pretty cool.

      https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/5g6fNbeknOc1Lrm6b9EulA–/YXBwaWQ9eW15O3c9NTAwO3E9NzU7c209MQ–/http://38.media.tumblr.com/f95b47e5deeba7b00aebb34f04abceee/tumblr_inline_o5cguwSnke1qdal84_500.gif

      Here’s the link to the article: https://www.yahoo.com/tv/39-game-of-thrones-39-bran-stark-1403560328503350.html

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    124. Wimsey: Again, not necessarily.Londo Mollari was Emperor of the Centauriat the end of Babylon 5: but that was far from “sweet.”The alternatives here are not “lived happily ever after” and “they all died horribly”: there are a lot of intermediate scenarios.

      I love the Babylon 5 nod. 🙂

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    125. phantomstrife:
      Sean C.,

      I don’t recall that. Then again I didn’t pay much attention to her arc and read the books once years ago, so there’s that.

      But that’s Arya. It still doesn’t mean Sansa went anywhere before going to King’s Landing. Refresh my memory if I’m wrong on that.

      Ned and Cat were in Kings Landing (or at least the south) about 5 years before the start of the story as they met Lysa and Cersei at that time (for some reason Ned never met Robert though).

      Pretty sure the older children would have been taken at least as far as Riverun to meet their Grandfather during that trip.

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    126. SimpleWatcher,

      Sansa is the most real character on game of thrones … Fuck I’d go so far as to say Sansa is all of us is in way we grow up thinking life is a bed of roses and there’s a happy ending then at puberty life really hits us and we realise it’s not an easy path to fame love glory the end you have to struggle and u keep getting kicked in the arse by that which is known as ‘LIFE’ but u have to push through it and that is exactly what Sanda does … All arya does is turns into a revengeful little psychotic bitch that’s damaged mentally beyond repair … Sansa goes through the worst torture and comes out on top because of her ability to endure pain suffering and torture … Something very few people can take but heck it still happens today in the real world … She’s the symbol of hope and yet the symbol of raw realness that each 1 of us has to face before we can make it … From day 1 way back in season 1 when she was an annoying little naive lass I saw something in her … I saw a girl with dreams not unlike us real living breathing humans that has dreams that are crushed in time and honestly I can say I’ve learnt from this wonderful character how to take each downfall with whatever hatred and cruelty and turn it around by simply being courteous

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    127. Obviously there are a lot of people that don’t like Sansa, and not to be mean, but I really don’t think Sophie is a great actor either. She has gotten a lot better, but still would rank toward the bottom of the cast, in my opinion. Hopefully her story and acting can reach high enough levels this year to at least be interesting.

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    128. mau:
      Wimsey,

      I don’t think there is anything else to his character beside his ambition.

      He has a fascinating backstory. He’s basically ASOIAF’s (chaotic!) evil “Great Gatsby”. And there’s definitely possibility of “more” before the end.

      So yeah – unlike you – I definitely don’t think he’s dying this season.

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    129. Has everyone forgotten about the old lady tending to Sansa saying “the North Remembers?” I’m sure news of Sansa being in WF has spread and that she was being mistreated by Ramsay.
      Her identity will not be in question.

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    130. selena:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      The Awards are tonight actually.. going on right now ..(I had to check because I couldnt believe she would do that and not premiere either lol)

      http://www.latintimes.com/2016-mtv-movie-awards-presenters-ryan-reynolds-game-thrones-emilia-clarke-plus-378978

      The MTV Movie Awards is live tomorrow night at 8pm. The same time as the GoT Red Carpet Premeire.

      Billy Madison is playing on MTV right now.

      So yeah, Emilia is snubbing the GoT premiere.

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    131. Emilia is doing zero promotion this time around. Kit’s done more interviews than her lol. Going to be a weird premiere without Kit and Emilia. Is Dinklage going?

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    132. Maid of Tits and Dragons: Families do know each other, not everyone who ever saw Sansa is dead, and she has enough similarities to the Tullys to match a superficial inspection. She also has enough information and knowledge to answer any and all questions regarding her background and the history of those in the North, as well as King’s Landing.

      Who are these people that would know Sansa? Who are these people who know what Tully’s look like?

      Again, it is not as if Sansa had “playdates” with the Umbers or Mormants or Manderlys. She never has mentioned visiting those places. She might have started drawing attention soon, as Northern Lords probably would have started angling to marry their sons to her: but before that could happen, she went south.

      The simple truth is that this is a world in which most people had no idea what other people looked like. Add to this the handicap of those few living people who have met Sansa met the child Sansa: and as we all know, people look a lot different as adults than they do as kids.

      Keep in mind that Sansa is in the opposite position as Jeyne Poole. Jeyne has the official credentials to prove that she’s a Stark: and because only one person actually knows what she is supposed to look like, at most others can only suspect that she is a fraud. (And it’s only a suspicion that they suspect!) Sansa has no credentials to prove who she is: and, let’s face it, people would be expecting Anastasias at this point. The list of credible people who can identify Sansa for being Sansa is really short. Rickon probably could: but he’s young enough (particularly in the books) that he might not be taken seriously. Jon’s credibility will be largely shot. Theon’s credibility is shot. Some of the Northern Lords that have visited Winterfell in the last few years might think that she looks sort of like a girl that they dimly remember: but just as Sophie Turner looks considerably different now from what she looked like 6 years ago, Sansa will look different, and she will act still more different.

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    133. Jack Bauer 24,

      Not zero. She did a EW cover and interview and that recent Glamour interview. Sophie, Carice and Maisie have really taken the lead in promo for the women this year. Emilia has done about as much as Lena Headey and Gwendoline Christie, who also got EW covers.

      Nothing at all from Diana Rigg. Just some photoshoots of Nathalie Emanuel.

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    134. Gilly’s bonsaied baby: I’m sure news of Sansa being in WF has spread and that she was being mistreated by Ramsay.

      How would it have spread? There is very little means of disseminating information in this world, and less so in the thinly populated north. Moreover, the Boltons have always been very good about suppressing the spread of information: nobody knew about Ramsay, for example.

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    135. Pigeon: To be fair, they may have looked up her FaceParchment profile.

      I came within 3 inches of frying my laptop with beer snorted through my nose…..

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    136. Jack Bauer 24,

      Emilia also hasn’t done zero promo. She had the EW cover, she’s on this week’s Glamour cover, she’s doing Conan next week. She will also have a movie out in early June and has started some promo on that. I’m sure she’ll be everywhere again in May/June and will probably do promo for the movie and show at the same time.

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    137. mau,

      I was referring to the fact that others have sufferred more than Sansa … Robb, Catelyn … I put the smile in the hope you would see that it was humor not intended to be a slight … sorry I wasn’t more clear so I could avoid the “harmless nitpick” comment when no nitpick was meant, harmless or otherwise.

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    138. Wylie:
      Maid of Tits and Dragons,
      Talking about journey’s. Here’s a pattern for the Heroine’s journey.
      http://head-heart-health.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/heroines-journey.jpg

      I think Sansa ended last season at No. 6 and starts the upcoming season with No. 7.

      And about the morality question. The Direwolf issue is a good example for being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ned explained it very well to Arya on the show why Sansa lied.

      Also, we’ve seen Sansa do good for others. Vincent Stark mentioned the calming the women during the siege. There is also the saving of Dontos and her wanting to give bread to the poor. In the books, IMO it is more obvious that she’s compassionate and is heading to become some sort of motherly protector figure (see also the relationship with Sweetrobin or running the household).

      The idea of Sansa needing a redemption arc is beyond me.

      Thank you! Exactly this. I don’t quite understand the Sansa hate. I’ve kind of loved her since the moment she saved Dontos. She did it in a very clever way, and it underscored her compassionate nature. That is when I realized she was much smarter than she had been previously portrayed, as the romantic all-I’ve-ever-wanted-was-to-marry-a-prince-obsessed child. Someone mentioned her character growth has been subtle, but it is definitely there.

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    139. Wimsey,

      Not true. The lords who served Ned all attended functions etc at Winterfell and would have seen the family during feast and celebrations. Re J Poole Lady Dunstan knows she is not Arya so I suspect others do to. Ned would have also visited his vassals hold fasts and castles as the Lord of the North and I’m sure on occasions took family with them.

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    140. Wimsey,

      There is a theatre troop in Braavos acting out a play about events in Kings Landing so I’d say news can travel anywhere. The old man at the Inn where Brieanne and Pod were staying must have known too. Lots of travelers stop at Inns. Lots of people at Inns like to drink and gossip. So yeah, word would without a doubt get out.

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    141. mau,

      I suspect Arya is going to change this season. Really become no one. Maisie said she gets ‘stripped away ‘ or something to that effect. And her story will likely outstrip the books. She has already had a vengeance kill. Whether or not we shall see the Mercy chapter seems up in the air, esp given some of the photos we saw during filming.

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    142. mau,

      Wow. The Northern Lords won’t accept Sansa because she is a ‘political whore’. And she ran away from her husband, and that’s another reason. That’s pretty contradictory. You realize that, right? First, she is getting into bed with the enemy (I guess you assume they will think this was on his own volition) and then they disapprove further when she runs away? If anything her running away will just prove that she isn’t choosing these marriages. And that she isn’t a ‘whore’. She’s a victim. A pawn. And if we consider the adaptation aspect: doesn’t everyone know about Ramsays abuse of Fake Arya? That makes it possible that the Northerners will know of the abuse that Sansa suffered. Surely that would win her even more sympathy.

      Maybe don’t call Sansa a whore. You don’t want to bring the weigh of the moderators upon u.

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    143. As far as the debate around character identity goes, ultimately whatever the writers want to happen will happen. There’s book support for the Stark kids having traveled around Winterfell, as well as that the Northern bannermen visited Winterfell regularly — whether the show wants to play it that way remains to be seen.

      Thus far, I don’t think the writers of the show have demonstrated any interest in characters having to prove they are who they say they are. With regard to Sansa, she was able to immediately convince Lord Royce and the other Vale nobles who she was, on the strength of having briefly met Royce years earlier. In that same episode, the Hound announced he had Arya Stark at the Bloody Gate and this was seemingly taken seriously by the Knight of the Gate (though if you assume he didn’t believe them, it makes it easier to reconcile why that development was never mentioned again).

      Also, if Ramsay is in full “give me back my bride” mode (which his voiceover in the promo may suggest), that would be a pretty obvious credential in her favour.

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    144. Wimsey,

      I’m surprised at your vehemence here. Maybe you are right, but I doubt it. People know she is there. Or was there. The man in the inn. And Ravens. So news definitely gets around.

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    145. As I remembered back in s5, when Sansa arrive at winterfell, the elderly woman who said that there are still allies in the north (hence the north remember line) had no problem recognizing Sansa and did not need a direwolf as evidence of her being a stark…

      Hmmmp.. if only others would try to understand that we only have 10 episode and we don’t have much time to make all those finer details some of us were expecting not to mention to many characters to cover. We could all likely assume that the north would recognize any stark even without the direwolves as evidence. This is a show people, the book is different because it can have all the freedom of making those fine details you want.

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    146. Simon: The lords who served Ned all attended functions etc at Winterfell and would have seen the family during feast and celebrations.

      Why would they pay attention to children? If they were at Winterfell for these putative functions, then they were there for business.

      Again, there will be a few lords who would have met her as a child. Some might be able to recognize her: but surely you have noticed how easy it is to not recognize someone you saw once or twice when they were a child and then meet again years later as an adult. If you do not see someone continuously while they grow, then you often will be hard pressed to connect the child to the adult.

      Gilly’s bonsaied baby: There is a theatre troop in Braavos acting out a play about events in Kings Landing so I’d say news can travel anywhere.

      That is like saying because events in Washington DC become rapidly known around the world that it follows that news from Nome Alaska can become just as rapidly known. Kings Landing is a major port of trade and commerce, and Westeros (backwards as it is) is a major country of some note, so the events affecting its leaders will travel. Winterfell is not a major trade center or a place through which many people. Moreover, the Boltons are really good at keeping news contained. So, combine natural isolation with blackout skills that would inspire cold-war Albania, and, no, nobody is going to be hearing about this.

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    147. Wimsey: Why would they pay attention to children?If they were at Winterfell for these putative functions, then they were there for business.

      Politically-minded people in a dynastic system would make a point of scoping out the younger generation. From the books, Rickard Karstark certainly did.

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    148. Demonmonkey: People know she is there. Or was there. The man in the inn. And Ravens. So news definitely gets around.

      This isn’t vehemence: it’s logic! Yes, people in the immediate area know she is there. But they do not know how she is being treated. They are not going to be spreading too much word about even what they do know. Commoners don’t use ravens: those are for the aristocracy, and the Boltons control those very stringently.

      Ultimately, the false premise that seems to trip people is that if any news can get out, then all news gets out, and that if any news gets out anywhere, then that news gets out everywhere. Neither of these statements are true in our world, and they would be still less true in a world like that.

      Keep in mind also that this is stuff that the viewers will know. Their questions would be: why would they think that this young lady is actually Sansa and not an Anastasia? They would not wonder why they do not recognize her: they would know from personal experience that it would be unusual for someone to connect the girl to the woman.

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    149. Wimsey,

      What the crap, your analogy makes no sense either. You’re comparing modern time with a made up medieval world.

      Let’s see how many people know Sansa is married to Ramsay.
      Brieanne, Pod, Littlefinger, Cersei, the old man at the Inn, everyone in WF and Theon-who could tell anyone he wants to. That’s a lot of people that the Boltons have to keep quiet. How do you think they will acommplish that?

      And this is a rhetorical questions because I know you will not acquiesce. You have your opinion and I have mine.

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    150. Ravyn:
      The Queen of the North.

      Personally reckon she will be a Queen of Harrenhall in the books with the RL Lords backing her (and perhaps Sweetrobin), but it seems they are going this route for the show with Northern Lords backing her.

      Sadly this means Rickon getting killed

      There is a middle ground, Rickon is the King aka Tommen but Sansa makes sense as Princess-Regent or Queen-Regent like Cersei was to Joffrey until he comes of age,

      This way Sansa is the “younger and more beautiful Queen to strike Cersei down”. She suspected Marge all along and perhaps even some fans thought it was Dany but it was really Sansa

      The irony is that Sansa will be a Dark Queen though IMO

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    151. Sean C.,

      You are the voice of reason. Others however want us to believe that instead of Sansa having some exciting new character plot this season, she will be spending her time doing I have no freaking idea what while the Northern lords debate if she is who she claims to be. Sounds like ripping must see tv. Geez ?.

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    152. Ghosts Lunch,

      THIS. omg I’m lost for words…. though this may not happen, but imagine if it did. I’m one those who believe marge was the queen referred in that prophesy, but now it seems its definitely Sansa. No, she did not take joffrey away (killed him that is) from cersei but she was the instrument for his demise (insert Sansa’s poisoned neclace here). Jaime got captured by the northerners.. (what was the primary goal of that war again..hmmm recover the daughters of ned, sansa one of them) In the prophesy that queen is said to take away everything she holds dear away from her. The way the show is, it seem very likely that its definitely marge,but who knows she was actually the misleading one.. and it turned out that it was sansa all along.

      Although everything I thought is probably not going to happen. nah, but its fun speculating.

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    153. El-Bobbie:
      Looks like the premier episode’s description changed. At least on DirectTV. Instead of “Jon Snow is dead” it says “The fate of Jon Snow is revealed”.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4e4jre/spoilers_everything_update_to_description_of/.compact

      They can change it all they want. They already released the presser that says “Jon Snow is dead”. Every site reported on it and that’s what the majority of people will remember. This DirecTV change is odd in that sense.

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    154. I am glad others agree that Sansa’s “character progression” has been rushed at best… And just lame at worst. She didn’t gain any experience at Kings Landing that would give her any degree of leadership abilities. She literally was just a victim for the entire time and it’s not like she studied under anyone or anything. She literally was a victim the entire time, and yes she did lie a bit in season 5 (was pretty unbelievable in itself as before this she had shown no traits of this type of behaviour) but still she has shown no leadership abilities or strength and thus would make a terrible leader. She could possibly be a figure head due to being a Stark but that is it at best.

      Thus D & D I really hope you don’t suddenly make her this amazing leader that everyone follows, as a 17-18 year old character that has gone from one victim situation to the next with very little character growth (Whimsey said it is character growth… That’s like an apple tree seed growing into an orange tree… Just unbelievable and stupid) she makes a truly terrible leader and I don’t want to watch episodes in which she is suddenly this huge leader. Please don’t make Sansa something which she is not… And for the love of all things holy don’t give her heaps of episodes.

      The amount of other things happening in Westeros that are more interesting then Sansa and her boring storyline. Bring on Ayra Stark who had actually had to have character growth and not just be a useless victim… Bring a victim the entire show makes you a good leader right? No? Are you sure? Well damn that common sense and reason that you are spouting!

      SimpleWatcher

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    155. I think Santa has 3 arcs this season;
      1. Get away from the Boltons and meet up with Briene
      2. Find her two younger brothers who she now knows are alive
      3. Take back winterfell

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    156. Redxgod: Zombi

      And she will be free to run about as she pleases, because Cersei is now focused on 3 things: the Tyrells, Sparrows, and keeping her last child safe. She has no time or resources to be getting revenge on Sansa.

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    157. phantomstrife,

      I don’t care much for Sansa as a character, but she certainly has begun playing. She lied at the Eyrie to help LF and herself and she married Ramsay. She is not a little naive girl anymore.

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    158. For those of us sound asleep during the live transmission on fb, will anyone here record all of the premiere incl red carpet etc and share it here or on YouTube? Not just snippets but the whole thing? Pretty please?

        Quote  Reply

    159. Meh…I hope they didn’t give in to the sensitive flowers who shouldn’t be watching this show. Sansa is a tragic character, and though she does continue to grow amid the tragedy, I think her arc ultimately should continue along the path of dreams never realized and sorrow (with a victory here and there) as she tries to reunite with her remaining family. No character should be handled with kid gloves. That’s an insult to all women if they dumb down the character so as not to offend anyone.

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    160. Singedbylife:
      For those of us sound asleep during the live transmission on fb, will anyone here record all of the premiere incl red carpet etc and share it here or on YouTube? Not just snippets but the whole thing? Pretty please?

      The video should be on the GoT FB page even when the live stream ends. I can’t remember how long it was last year, but I think the Red Carpet was around 30 minutes before they went into the theatre to watch the premiere.

        Quote  Reply

    161. Actually last years Red Carpet was an hour. It was also 3 weeks before the premiere and this time it is thankfully only 2.

      I think they will ask every cast member about Jon and since Kit won’t be there the cast will be able to use that to their advantage

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    162. Isn’t Sansa just Littlefinger’s puppet? Maybe taking charge this season will be here following Littlefinger’s instructions.

        Quote  Reply

    163. Sansa’s Knight,
      Hahahahahahaha did you honestly type that Sansa is the best representation of ‘us’ and is the most real character in game of thrones. Thank you for making my day that was hilarious. If I would chose a character on Got that is the most ‘real’ Sansa would not even be on the list…

      Though seriously thank you it was hilarious and I hope you continue to fight all the injustices that you face with courtesy. To answer you question Sansa in season 1 was a stuck up spoiled brat who when going to Kings Landing all she did was sit around (besides putting up with all the bs of Kings Landing) and there have been many… Many other characters that represent strength against all odds and have actually had to fight and strive for there success.

      I would personally find that more relatable then Sansa… Who he honestly sits around being a pretty bad person… Or at least one that didn’t have much depth, and they are only now trying to show that she is strong? Yes getting away from Ramsay and jumping off the tower wall could be considered brave… But more likely it should be viewed as someone that really doesn’t have any other choice.

      So yeah… Sansa is not the most relatable character for ‘us’ as it seems that it is for you…

      And to say Ayra is a psychotic bitch… She has actually experienced many many hardships that would have killed Sansa… And has actually had a character progression arc that is at least semi-believable. Not just Victim – leader… Or that is how I assume Sansa will “Take charge” in this season. To be honest you could probably say that Sansa should be dead already… As a weak character like her really shouldn’t still be around in that harsh environment.

      Ayra should be the”Queen in the North” as once again she shown many times strength of character and prowess.

      SimpleWatcher

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    164. HotPinkLipstick:
      There’s an article from Total Film circulating on Tumblr with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau apparently filming in Shane’s Castle, with Qyburn and also saying they built the enormous Riverrun set for use in only an episode and a half.

      http://nikolajfangirlteam.tumblr.com/post/142540527592/total-film-june-2016

      That’s actually interesting new information. Jaime films with Qyburn and say that his character finds it disturbing, while Cersei is totally into it. Maybe she does something really disturbing to make him leave her. What if he wants to make to Myrcella the same that they did to the mountain, to make sure that her reign and life will continue.
      Kings Landing doesn’t have any spoilers but it seems it will be the most weird story this year.

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    165. SimpleWatcher,

      You’re totally missing the point of their post. In reality, not everyone is a hero or warrior who can just fight, manipulate, kill, and use physical strength to survive. Most people aren’t, especially most women aren’t violent. She is not cold blooded, it’s just not in her DNA. She does what she can to survive within the confines of who she is – a sweet, soft, spoiled girl. The odds are stacked against her in pretty much every situation she is in and if she tries to fight back physically she’ll get killed. I think you are looking for more conventional story telling, like a Disney movie, where the sweet princess all of a sudden turns into a hero that saves the day.

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    166. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Well, it’s like the old “mother bear” analogy. There are many women who will put up with a lot of BS in life but if there’s a threat to her children, she finds the strength to act. Or even the little daily occurrences, like when she’s really too sick to get out of bed and would rather just lay there, if there’s a hungry child needs to be fed and changed, she does it anyways. If her child is physically threatened, even by someone much bigger and that she’d normally fear, a loving protective mother will stand up to the threat, regardless. The mothering instinct can be particularly motivating. Having and raising a child comes with many challenges, ones that require a certain amount of “strength” to get through.

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    167. went to facebook page of thrones cause there was nothing new yet… then I saw this comment on the April 3 post about how much do you know of season 3:

      Season 6 gathers, and now my watch begins.
      It shall not end ’til the season finale.
      I shall embrace no wife, mow no lands, entertain no children.
      I shall wear no ties and make no money.
      I shall live and die at my TV.
      I am the witness in the darkness.
      I am the watcher on the couch.

      I am the fire that burns the hand that tries to change the channel,
      the one who programs the DVR,
      the one who yells “NO TALKING!”,
      the shield that guards the remote control.
      I pledge my life and honor to this seasons watch, for this night and all the nights to come…. till the end of this season.

      Totally made my day!!! hahahaha!
      https://www.facebook.com/GameOfThrones/?fref=ts

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    168. I agree, Sansa only ever wanted to be carried away on a horse by a handsome prince like snow white, she was never ever interested in anything else. I think it would take her having kids to make her get the built up anger to be anything but a dreamer. If they make her into wonder woman in one season i’ll be very dissappointed

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    169. Nymeria Warrior Queen: I’m sorry to pick out just the above part of your post to quote, and maybe I’m misinterpreting your words, but are you saying women cannot and/or do not mostly discover their inner strengths unless/until they’re put in mother positions?If that is the case, I could not disagree with you more.If that isn’t the case and I misinterpreted what you wrote, my apologies.

      I don’t understand why you guys have to categorize women as one entity that all act the same. I think most people are good people, and most women the same, and with that most love their children and are very protective of them (just like most men). Even among those that are protective, there are some who are strong enough to fend off a threat, and some who aren’t despite their best intentions. There are some women that don’t want children but are perfectly good people. There are some women that wish they never had children and hate being a mother, but force themselves anyway. There are some women that are verbally abusive, some that are physically or sexually abusive, and some that even kill their kids.

      What I’m trying to say is, every person is different and unique, and so is every character. I think some people fall into the trap of trying to categorize all women characters as having to act a certain way, when really, every woman is unique in how they would respond to a situation, just like every man is. Obviously, women and men do have some pronounced different biological traits, but some of you act like they define the characters entire existence and dictates how all woman characters would act in situation x or y, and if portrayed otherwise, is “sexist”.

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    170. SimpleWatcher,

      I don’t think it’s going to be this stupendous transformation with Sansa. She may be the rallying point for the whole north to come together, and she may do things to ensure that, e.g. looking for northern lords, finding Rickon, etc. That doesn’t mean she’s going to go Xena the Warrior Princess. It will be an evolution and not a revolution.

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    171. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      In your opinion lol. I honestly think you have completely missed the point of my post but yet that is only my opinion as well. For reference I have no idea how you think I would prefer a “Disney story” as I have stated that I really enjoy someone like Ayra’s storyline and I have never seen anything like her in those “Disney” stories.

      Also I have never said that the female character needs to be violent to be strong… Though it is great to see women represented in different lights as they are really need it. I would say Cersei is a very strong character (love her or hate her) and especially in the last series has shown a great degree of personal strength in the face of extremely horrible events. There are other to mention obviously but I will not keep going as you are obviously a watcher and thus I know this.

      The issue I have is that although Sansa was originally portrayed as a spoiled little shit (which you were right doesn’t show a violent nature though she has been shown to have a great tendency for malice) as she went into Kings Landing she was obviously in a tough spot… And continued to do so throughout the show she did not show much character progression at all, and has generally been pretty weak (yes in mind and will… I am not talking about strength)

      Many many characters have been constantly in danger (yes men and women) and have shown a vast capability for strength and drive to survive. I don’t want all characters to be physically strong as you are stating, I just want D & D to stick to the character that they created and worked on, and not just suddenly make her “take control” for really no apparent reason… She would be a good rallying point, but has shown throughout the series almost no leadership qualities, a pretty weak constitution and has generally still been a spoiled/victim character.

      Thus please don’t make assumptions as a character doesn’t have to be violent to be powerful as you are imply that is what I am saying… That is just really silly and Ayra was a good example due to being another stark who has constantly been in peril and has thus had to evolve and her character changed.

      Having a character that is one thing for almost 5 seasons and then trying to change her very type of character is frustrating as it breaks the illusion of the world. Not all characters have to be strong (once again I don’t mean violence…) and that is believable in a story as in real life there are obviously many people that are like that.

      I think you might have to go back to watching Disney my friend… As it seems like you are self-projecting onto others…

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    172. SimpleWatcher,

      I think we actually agree as I don’t want to see Sansa’s character all of a sudden make this ridiculous progression just to appease the small part of the audience that is over sensitive and hates seeing bad things happen to characters they root for. So for me it depends on how she takes control, it has to be believable within the context of how they’ve written her.

      I disagree with you that her character hasn’t progressed. I felt that in season 5, she really did take control within the context of her character, she did everything she could to survive. As the seasons go by, she has become much less naive and much more hardened (again within the context of her personality – she’s a girly girl). She’ll never be Brienne or Arya so the parameters of what she can do to survive are much more limited.

      So I just disagree with you that she hasn’t progressed or that she isn’t a real character. Maybe she annoys you and she’s not the type of person you’d like in real life, but I think that’s different than saying she’s not an accurate depiction of a type of woman that does exist and actually is a lot different than the other main female protagonists on the show

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    173. GoT is a lot of things to a lot of ppl…for me its the tits, yet,…i never see a convo in here where we can debate who has the best tits in the show and if u do ur classed as sexist and jumped on…i dont think thats very fair…anyway…i think mirandas were the best in case anyones interested

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    174. jymion:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      we are talking about a character a man made up…u really should take ur beef up with them

      Beef about what? I don’t have a beef with Sansa. And male writers are certainly capable of writing women characters just as female writers are capable of writing male characters.

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    175. Demonmonkey:
      mau,

      Wow. The Northern Lords won’t accept Sansa because she is a ‘political whore’.

      We know that the most powerful Northenrn Lords won’t accept Sansa. And Jon.

      The question is why. Their alliance with the wildlings will be a strong motive, but maybe they also won’t see Sansa as a credible person after her marriage with Tyrion, Ramay and pact with the wildlings.

      She was forced to marry Tyrion in the books as well, but Stannis called her lady Lannister. It didn’t matter to him, and maybe it won’t matter to lord Karstark and lord Umber.

      And she is a woman as well. Maybe for some of them possibility to have woman and a bastard as rulers of the North is more horrifying that to have Ramsay in that position.

      There are many possible explanations why Karstark and Umbers won’t follow Jon and Sansa. We just need to wait and see which path D&D will choose to go.

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    176. Ghosts Lunch: Personally reckon she will be a Queen of Harrenhall in the books with the RL Lords backing her (and perhaps Sweetrobin), but it seems they are going this route for the show with Northern Lords backing her.

      I think you are making a lot of assumptions here that are based just on your wishes and not something in the books.

      The show and the books will have their differences, but not something that major.

      And there are many hints in the books that Sansa will go to the North, and I don’t recall any occasion in which she showed any interest for Harrenhall.

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    177. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Heh ok mate sure I dislike her because she annoys me and it isn’t someone I like in real life. It is hilarious that you mentioned Brienne when I did not as I said Cersei was my other actual example and for reference she is someone that I wouldn’t like in real life but it doesn’t mean that she isn’t strong. Once again please stop making assumptions and projecting…

      Another example of a strong female character (as it also seems like you want to keep it in gender) such Margaery who once again is not a violent character yet time and time again has shown strength of character. Queen of thorns is another that wow guess what is not violent either and uses her wit and her strength of character to dominate..

      So please once again stop making assumptions and self-projecting as it is nothing to do with someone I would like in real life… That is just silly lol. It is to do with her character profession and you can disagree that she has not shown much in terms of that and that is fine, just please stop putting words in my mouth.

      It has nothing to do with my real life preferences… It is to do with character progression and that is all so stop trying to make it something that it is not. I would feel exactly the same if she was a male character who had shown such little character progression and then they made it that he (Sansa) suddenly showed such an unwarranted character change.

      It’s not about gender in the end mate… It’s about good story telling…

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    178. SimpleWatcher,

      It is hard to take your criticism seriously, when you already hate the storyline before you even see it.

      Sansa was always surrounded by her enemies. It was impossible for her to show any leadership qualities. Now, for the first time ever, she is on her own, she will make an important decisions for the first time ever.

      And there is nothing sudden in that. Circumstances gave her an opportunity to act now. She was in different circumstances before.

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    179. SimpleWatcher,

      mau:
      SimpleWatcher,

      It is hard to take your criticism seriously, when you already hate the storyline before you even see it.

      Sansa was always surrounded by her enemies. It was impossible for her to show any leadership qualities. Now, for the first time ever, she is on her own, she will make an important decisions for the first time ever.

      And there is nothing sudden in that. Circumstances gave her an opportunity to act now. She was in different circumstances before.

      nm

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    180. SimpleWatcher,

      You can’t compare Cersei and Margaery with Sansa.

      They were never captives of their enemies, and Margaery has shown in S5 that she is completely useless when she faces a serious treat. She called Olenna to come and help her. And now her father will call an army to help her.

      Sansa never had that type of help from anyone.

      Margaery is not strong. She is just rich and powerful, because her family is rich and powerful. She didn’t achieve anything on her own ever in her life. Everything she has, was given to her.

      And manipulating Joffrey is not something so great. Sansa and Joffrey were also in a good relationship before Ned “betrayed” Joffrey.

      And Olenna didn’t even trust Margaery that she is able to manipulate him in the long term.

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    181. mau,

      Heh you had made a massive assumption on that I hate the storytelling… Great job there by the way. I love the storytelling of GoT and D&D have done a great job. The fact that I am worried about one character is not indicative that I hate the storytelling as a whole…

      Also just because she was I different circumstances before now is not really that relevant as the traits that she showed whilst in her previous situation still shows what her character is like. Yes giving a character another situation and more choices can change aspects of a character… But doesn’t change the character nature as a whole. I am not saying she won’t become stronger… As you would have to if they wanted her to survive… Yet what I am saying is that she has shown little to no leadership abilities even in her situation before, and her characters essence is not really that strong in itself.

      But hey maybe you are right maybe I hate the storytelling of my favourite show… And I am just on this site discussing it because… I guess… I am being a dick? Is that what you are saying? I don’t want to make assumptions like you have as I think it makes someone look stupid…

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    182. SimpleWatcher,

      Again, I agree with your last sentence and also when you say, “it’s about character progression”. I do think Sansa is strong in her own way, though not like some of the other characters you mention. She is a soft, girly girl character so her courage is measured against that. So as long as they portray Sansa’s strength within the confines of the character as its been portrayed so far, I’m fine with it. If they all of a sudden turn her into a Dany / Brienne / Margaery / Olenna hybrid that has grown wings, can warg, and shoots fire out of her eyes, then no I wouldn’t be OK with it.

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    183. SimpleWatcher:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      I would feel exactly the same if she was a male character who had shown such little character progression and then they made it that he (Sansa) suddenly showed such an unwarranted character change.

      You did’t watch S6 and I find this comment completely ridiculous. You don’t know what type of change Sansa will show in S6.

      But you already decided that you will hate her storyline in S6 for whatever reason.

        Quote  Reply

    184. mau,

      I agree that it’s very likely that she goes North in the books as well. But after the Wall comes down and The WW invade (if that happens), I think people would probably need to seek refuge in the south. I can see some kind of huge migration from north to south and at the same time maybe Daeny’s army advancing from south to north (That’s obviously just wild speculation. Though it would be a possibility for both parts of the story to meet in the middle.)

      There are also a few instances in the books where Sansa is associated with bat imagery which is the sigil of House Whent (Minisa Whent being Sansa’s grand-mother, Catelyn’s mother) whose seat was Harrenhal. Also the castle would probably be big enough to host quite a few people.

      That doesn’t make her Queen of Harrenhal, but I think the Castle could be a location to wait out the crisis or seek temporary refuge.

        Quote  Reply

    185. SimpleWatcher,

      I didn’t say you hate the storytelling, I said you hate her storyline before you watched it and you are making an assumption what will happen to her in S6.

      Sansa didn’t show any leadership quality, because she was not able to show any. Robb didn’t show any leadership quality before the circumstances forced him to do so. The same applies to Dany. And many other characters in this story.

        Quote  Reply

    186. mau,

      Yeah but Sansa isn’t Rob or Dany, she’s a softer character like Sam and her courage will be measured against that. If she becomes a bad ass leader like Dany or Rob, it will be character assassination.

        Quote  Reply

    187. mau,

      Haha seriously the assumptions that you make are laughable… I have already told you that I like the storytelling and I am worried that you are not understanding me at all (or you have limited comprehension skills…) and the example was that if a male or female Sansa showed her character traits I would not find either of them strong… As they both would not have showed much growth in that area at all… I never said I knew what would happen in season 6… That was what my first post is about I am worried about her progression in season 6 and am discussing it I an article about her in which it say she “Takes charge”

      In summary you are not reading what I am saying, and assuming/putting words in my mouth and I really don’t appreciate it… I don’t want to say you are stupid as that would be an assumption (Though you have 0 problems making assumptions against myself…) and thus I will just stop responding.

      Also I am worried that you hate the storytelling as you have said it twice… And self-protection seems to be rampant in your responses so maybe you should reconsider your own ideas about the show as a whole…

      In your future arguments it is better to actually read what the other person is saying and respond accordingly… Not make up and assume what I am saying and make blanket statements based on that. It is perfectly fine to have doubts about a character and everyone’s opinions differ and thus it is healthy to discuss it on a forum especially when it directly correlates to the article.

      At least Latrine made minimal assuptions and responded based on what he believes about the character… I may not agree but at least I can see where he is coming from. Whilst you don’t seem to be capable of doing that Mau…

      So I find your last comment ridiculous Mau as it doesn’t even make any sense to what I was talking about. I wish I had the ability to see what happened in season 6 as then my question would have been Moot…

      Idiot… (Sorry an assumption I know bit from your responses I am making an educated guess.. Since you are saying I think I am some kind of future teller for a point that was not saying anything like…)

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    188. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      The comparison was about how people grow with their tasks.

      Apart from that, Sansa’s character changed quite a bit over the seasons. I didn’t feel much “softness” from S5-Sansa. Her delivery of “I am Sansa Stark of Winterfell…” to Myranda was cold and sharp.

      And I expect a further evolution in S6, because of what she experienced with Ramsay and her basically staring death in the eye (Myranda with her crossbow).

      If they decide to make her a hardened woman who is done being shoved around by men and who tries to step up and play a mean game after all she went through, then how would that be character assassination?

        Quote  Reply

    189. SimpleWatcher,

      I never read such long and empty post at the same time, so I will ignore your infantile attempt to insult me. That is a job for the mods.

      You are constantly making and assumptions about her character in S6. You are talking about her “suddenly showed such an unwarranted character change”.

      You also said em>”having a character that is one thing for almost 5 seasons and then trying to change her very type of character is frustrating as it breaks the illusion of the world”/em>

      But you don’t know that they re trying to change her very type of character, so another assumption.

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    190. Wylie:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      The comparison was about how people grow with their tasks.

      Apart from that, Sansa’s character changed quite a bit over the seasons. I didn’t feel much “softness” from S5-Sansa. Her delivery of “I am Sansa Stark of Winterfell…” to Myranda was cold and sharp.

      I agree. Claiming that Sansa is the same person in S1 and S5 ignores everything that had happened in the show so far.

        Quote  Reply

    191. Wylie:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      The comparison was about how people grow with their tasks.

      Apart from that, Sansa’s character changed quite a bit over the seasons. I didn’t feel much “softness” from S5-Sansa. Her delivery of “I am Sansa Stark of Winterfell…” to Myranda was cold and sharp.

      And I expect a further evolution in S6, because of what she experienced with Ramsay and her basically staring death in the eye (Myranda with her crossbow).

      If they decide to make her a hardened woman who is done being shoved around by men and who tries to step up and play a mean game after all she went through, then how would that be character assassination?

      I pretty much agree with your first 3 paragraphs, and I think her season 6 behavior will be a continuation of that behavior, not a huge step up from it. I don’t see Sansa being a leader, or being ruthless, or being a great manipulator, it’s just not her personality. She’ll grow much in the same way Sam has, she’ll continue to show courage within the confines of her personality, but hopefully won’t have some enormous growth that will make her similar to Dany or Margaery because I think that would be unrealistic. It would be like if Sam all of a sudden morphed into a great swordsman.

        Quote  Reply

    192. mau: I agree. Claiming that Sansa is the same person in S1 and S5 ignores everything that had happened in the show so far.

      If you read my previous posts, I never said she didn’t grow from s1 to s5 in fact I said the opposite. When I said she’s “soft” I was meaning her personality type is “softer” then that of a Brienne, Arya, Dany, or Cersei. She’s more of a girly girl.

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    193. darkdadi:
      Ghosts Lunch,

      THIS. omg I’m lost for words…. though this may not happen, but imagine if it did. I’m one those who believe marge was the queen referred in that prophesy, but now it seems its definitely Sansa. No, she did not take joffrey away (killed him that is) from cersei but she was the instrument for his demise (insert Sansa’s poisoned neclace here). Jaime got captured by the northerners.. (what was the primary goal of that war again..hmmm recover the daughters of ned, sansa one of them) In the prophesy that queen is said to take away everything she holds dear away from her. The way the show is, it seem very likely that its definitely marge,but who knows she was actually the misleading one.. and it turned out that it was sansa all along.

      Although everything I thought is probably not going to happen. nah, but its fun speculating.

      Yeah it is fun to speculate. What is particularly fun about Sansa is that she was right under Cersei’s nose but she didn’t suspect a thing because she perceived she had her under her thumb, unlike Margaery

      It’s interesting to read the early parts of AGoT for clues, in particular the Queens carriage and how Sansa is invited into it with Myrcella and Cersei, eg think of all the people in there being Queens at some point. I reckon though that Sansa will be Queen in Harrenhall and kill Queen Myrcella after King Tommen is killed.

      I think Sansa will end up as a dark Queen though, eg the writing is such that viewers are set up to loathe the Lannisters and “pity” the Starks, but ASOIF is a great exploration of power, so just as we see Jaimie become respectable there is a counter issue, eg Arya may end up quite dark, and the victimised Sansa too so as viewers and readers people will be skillfully set up to admire Jaimie and perhaps dislike Sansa

      Just look at what Stannis the Mannis fans have had to go through after Shireen burning.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Brandon:
      Yaga,

      There is a very good theory that the children of Alysane Mormont are Tormunds.

      That *is* a fine theory, what with Tormund bragging about bedding a she-bear and the Young She-Bear claiming the Mormonts are wargs.

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    195. ladywolfsbane:
      Sansa is the phoenix
      Bran is the crow
      Arya is the falcon
      Daeny is the dragon
      Tyrion is the owl
      Jon is… hmmmm…

      Jon is a dead parrot.

      (See the wonderful comment by another poster on a previous thread regarding the deadness of this parrot)

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    196. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Cersei, and Dany particularly, are girly girls as well, but they’re not soft. Sansa being soft has nothing to do with being a girl, it’s just been her personality up to this point. I mean, Sam is pretty soft.

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    197. Wimsey: I suspect that the final battle will be a negotiated truce, with the real fight in the heads of Jon, Daeny and others.

      Just like how the Twilight series ended, eh? Psych!

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    198. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      SimpleWatcher,

      Again, I agree with your last sentence and also when you say, “it’s about character progression”. I do think Sansa is strong in her own way, though not like some of the other characters you mention. She is a soft, girly girl character so her courage is measured against that. So as long as they portray Sansa’s strength within the confines of the character as its been portrayed so far, I’m fine with it. If they all of a sudden turn her into a Dany / Brienne / Margaery / Olenna hybrid that has grown wings, can warg, and shoots fire out of her eyes, then no I wouldn’t be OK with it.

      Yeah this is fair enough, the books (and hopefully the show) is a matter of exploring power in various forms. Which of course includes power as expressed through females – this is why I love the Green Grace in the books but also the idea of the Whore woman being the Mother or Queen of the Harpies in the show as the anti-thesis to Dany.

      In terms of Sansa though, she is the epitome of Lady-like characteristics, and the epitome of womanhood in Medieval times and this can actually inspire a lot of following from men in the Elizabethan or Queen Victoria sense as the Matron of the Kingdom.

      It is not a disservice to her character or to female strength to maintain this angle – although I suspect it will become twisted ala Lady Lothston of Harrenhall – but they have Brienne and Arya through which to explore the “female action hero” angle, Dany as the leader of armies and destruction so Sansa’s character is useful as a different angle

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    199. LatrineDiggerBrian: If you read my previous posts, I never said she didn’t grow from s1 to s5 in fact I said the opposite. When I said she’s “soft” I was meaning her personality type is “softer” then that of a Brienne, Arya, Dany, or Cersei. She’s more of a girly girl.

      That phrase “girly girl” makes me bristle a little, I have to admit. And even if that is what Sansa was in the beginning, she has grown. She is becoming hardened by her experience. And stronger.

      A leader doesn’t have to have physical prowess. They don’t have to know battle strategies. They can be smart and compassionate; they can be a diplomatic leader. They can surround themselves with good advisors and be great orators and rally people for a common good (or a commen evil, unfortunately).

      Sansa is not a character painted in broad strokes, like Arya (who I love), but I have grown to really like Sansa for her subtle gestures, like saving Dontos, lying to the lords to save LF, for calling Ramsay a bastard to his face, for risking everything by asking Theon/Reek to place the candle, and facing Myranda, without cowering, and for jumping.

      She knows she’s not physically strong, she’ll have to survive by her wits. Even Tyrion noted she may just survive them all. Honestly, I think her transition to being more of a diplomatic leader would give me less whiplash than Dany’s arc, who went from a young, scared child, to a fearless Kahleesi within a few episodes. But, you know, I rolled with it, cuz this is a fantasy show and it’s fun entertainment.

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    200. jymion,

      This is kind of silly. She has plenty of motivation that has nothing to do with motherhood: revenge. And that is a common theme in the show / books

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    201. Thronedorne,

      I pointed out a few hundred comments back that no, she doesn’t. We just misread her comments last year.

      I would add certain things about Sanda are realistic. Like the length of time it is taking for her to change.

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    202. LatrineDiggerBrian: If you read my previous posts, I never said she didn’t grow from s1 to s5 in fact I said the opposite. When I said she’s “soft” I was meaning her personality type is “softer” then that of a Brienne, Arya, Dany, or Cersei. She’s more of a girly girl.

      That phrase “girly girl” makes me bristle a little, I have to admit. And even if that is what Sansa was in the beginning, she has grown. She is becoming hardened by her experience. And stronger.

      A leader doesn’t have to have physical prowess. They don’t have to know battle strategies. They can be smart and compassionate; they can be a diplomatic leader. They can surround themselves with good advisors and be great orators and rally people for a common good (or a commen evil, unfortunately).

      Sansa is not a character painted in broad strokes, like Arya (who I love), but I have grown to really like Sansa for her subtle gestures, like saving Dontos, lying to the lords to save LF, for calling Ramsay a bastard to his face, for risking everything by asking Theon/Reek to place the candle, and facing Myranda, without cowering, and for jumping.

      She knows she’s not physically strong, she’ll have to survive by her wits. Even Tyrion noted she may just survive them all. Honestly, I think her transition to being more of a diplomatic leader would give me less whiplash than Dany’s arc, who went from a young, scared child, to a fearless Kahleesi within a few episodes. But, you know, I rolled with it, cuz this is a fantasy show and it’s fun entertainment.

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    203. El-Bobbie:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Cersei, and Dany particularly, are girly girls as well, but they’re not soft. Sansa being soft has nothing to do with being a girl, it’s just been her personality up to this point. I mean, Sam is pretty soft.

      Cersei is not a girly girl. She even states in the Blackwater episode how she wishes she’d been born a man. She’s ruthless and cold, not traits that I’d associate with a girly girl. Dany also is very cold, firm and confrontational. Would not characterize her as a girly girl at all either. Sansa is softer because she is a girly girl, not because she is a girl if that makes sense.

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    204. mau: And there are many hints in the books that Sansa will go to the North

      More than hints. That’s how her story ended in AFFC: Littlefinger told her she would rally the Valemen to take back Winterfell.

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    205. JF, people.

      People fit into several categories.

      There are those who still think that Sansa is a bitch because she made a couple of shortsighted mistakes back in S1. And she probably deserves to die for that. Or a fate worse than death.

      There are those who think that she’s a perpetual victim and won’t ever amount to much.

      There are those who think that the gist of her character and story is that she wants to have sex with the Hound. (I detest these more than all the others.)

      There are, finally, those who think that she has a leadership/revenge purpose in her story. That her story is about finding that metaphorical wolf that she lost in S1.

      Now, funnily, whichever resolution out of these four happens, there’ll be three groups of pissed off people. Those people will whine about the resolution.

      So, this is it. And the rest are minutiae.

      (Truly great leaders, btw, are not uniquely warrior or diplomats – rather, they can recognise the appropriate course of action in each situation.)

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    206. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Ha! Girly girls can absolutely be ruthless and cold. Sansa isn’t soft because she’s a girly girl. That’s just her personality. Dany is feminine and yet she’s not soft. Dany isn’t a warrior, we’ve seen her constantly in pretty girly dresses, braiding hair and having girl talk, so how is she not a girly girl? Margaery is a girly girl and she’s not soft at all.

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    207. Noirgirl,

      I agree with a lot of what you say about Sansa, and for me, it’s all about context of how she’s portrayed of whether I can believe it or not. Will just have to see how it goes in season 6. However, even if the northmen get behind her and install her as Queen of the North, it’s still hard for me to see her as all of a sudden becoming a shot caller or wanting to.

      Dany’s transition made sense to me because of her bloodlines and her upbringing. And I think it was more gradual then you say. True, there was a big difference from the start of season 1 to the end of it, but there has been lots and lots of growing since then as well.

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    208. Noirgirl,
      I totally agree. Wonderfully put!

      LatrineDiggerBrian,
      I disagree with the idea that a person can only be one OR the other. We all are capable of great extremes in our behaviour.

      For instance, a person who is mostly shy and not fond of everyone’s attention, can under certain circumstances step up and take charge. People can be very compassionate in one instance and be egoistical assholes in another. Personalities can change over the course of life. Characters are dynamic, not static.

      In Sansa’s case, yes, she can be described as a character that mostly identifies with the traditionally female role models. BUT, don’t forget what Cat managed to do within that framework! (I referenced her stand-off with Karstark in one of my earlier comments, for instance.)

      I just disagree with your view of Sansa and the whole idea of “softness” or “girly girlness”. That’s AGoT-Sansa, and we’re in S6 now.

        Quote  Reply

    209. El-Bobbie:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Ha! Girly girls can absolutely be ruthless and cold. Sansa isn’t soft because she’s a girly girl. That’s just her personality. Dany is feminine and yet she’s not soft. Dany isn’t a warrior, we’ve seen her constantly in pretty girly dresses, braiding hair and having girl talk, so how is she not a girly girl? Margaery is a girly girl and she’s not soft at all.

      I think we have different definitions of “girly girl”. I agree with you, Dany, Margaery, and Cersei do have plenty of feminine qualities, and they like to wear nice dresses, etc. but I think a “girly girl” is more extreme than that.

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    210. phantomstrife,

      yes, because sansa is the one person on this show whom the plot has always conveniently made happy, amirite?

      Demon Monkey,

      I agree with you (on like, all your posts wooo) and I just wanted to add that, as much as I love Arya, she’s a little bit of escapist fantasy I think. Arya’s actually the one who’s gotten unrealistically lucky throughout this whole story, and on rewatches of season 1, I realized that she had much easier moral decisions to make than Sansa just because she was younger. (Not that Sansa wasn’t an idiot in season 1, but still.)

      I think that Sansa will be propped up as a leader, mostly just as a figurehead, because she’s a Stark. But what I’d really love to see is her evolve/show off whatever leadership qualities she has in the process. I felt like they were trying to develop a bit of leadership potential with her in “Blackwater” and I was disappointed that it never went anywhere, so hopefully that’ll come back this season.

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    211. I just wanted to add that the idea of Sansa landing in some kind of leadership position doesn’t come out of nowhere. Themes of ruling and the realities of politics as a whole are present in Sansa’s story from the very beginning. She was to become Queen once, so I think it could be quite the turn-around that after having learnt some hard realities about politics, being queen or wardeness would no longer be a blessing out of a fairytale for her, but a hard duty that may come with lots of complex and difficult decisions and a heavy cost, if Rickon truly dies.

      But, basically, what Yaga said. People will be pissed. One way or another. 🙂

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    212. Wylie,

      I didn’t say people have to be one of the other. Bottom line is, Sansa isn’t calculating like Margaery, isn’t ruthless like Cersei, isn’t a leader like Dany, isn’t fiery like Cat or Arya, isn’t a warrior like Brienne. She just isn’t. That’s why I compare her to Sam. She’s one of the sweeter, softer characters. It doesn’t mean she can’t be courageous, it just means there is a limit on how much growth I can believe from her. I disagree with people who think the writers should maker her all of a sudden become a leader who plays the game well as retribution for all the horrible stuff that has happened to her.

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    213. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Actually, I think Sam is much softer (way more) than Sansa. She does show hints of fire/passion, the way she spoke to Reek before finding out her brothers were alive. She even woke something up in Reek/Theon. She’s also shown to be calculating, lying to the lords. I couldn’t see Sam being able to do that. He’d just stammer and turn red, I think. 🙂

      She’s growing, and she certainly isn’t growing softer. She’s been learning the game over time.

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    214. LatrineDiggerBrian: I disagree with people who think the writers should maker her all of a sudden become a leader who plays the game well as retribution for all the horrible stuff that has happened to her.

      Well I can’t have a debate with you, if you’re arguing with made up people. No one on here said anything the like. Also, I am repeating myself, no one assumes she will become the ruler surpreme overnight.

      I am confident that her progression will fit her character. You don’t have to become Cersei or Margaery, but you can learn from them and integrate those lessons into your own character and let them inform your future actions if necessary. Sansa has her wits. Gurm said so 🙂

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    215. mau,

      Do the Freys still hold Greatjon? Or was he killed on the show? I always thought that was the primarly motivation for the Umbers to support the Boltons. Roose had made sure through the disposition of his troops (sending some to the slaughter at Dukensdale, having others killed by the Mountain at the Ruby Ford) that he had reduced the troops under him to the Boltons and the Freys and then he took care of those with Robb at the Twins, which with first the Ironborn and then him holding Moat Cailin

      Or has he been freed like Wylis Manderly allowing them to switch sides? Not saying that that will happen on the show just wondering

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    216. Noirgirl:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Actually, I think Sam is much softer (way more) than Sansa. She does show hints of fire/passion, the way she spoke to Reek before finding out her brothers were alive. She even woke something up in Reek/Theon. She’s also shown to be calculating, lying to the lords. I couldn’t see Sam being able to do that. He’d just stammer and turn red, I think.

      She’s growing, and she certainly isn’t growing softer. She’s been learning the game over time.

      Sam killed a Wight. Sam stood up for Gilly when she was about to be raped, even though he got the shit kicked out of him. They both have had moments of courage and cowardice.

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    217. Noirgirl,
      “That phrase “girly girl” makes me bristle a little, I have to admit.”

      What word would you have us use instead? The only recognized synonym I found is: Feminine. Because the other ones of: girlish, unmanly, ladylike are either outdated or don’t properly express the meaning in current context. However, the word “feminine” tends to open up a can of worms so….

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    218. Sansa and Rickon will be on opposing sides. We had a glimpse of Rickon’s personality already, not forgiving and everyone abandoned him. Therefore to Rickon, Sansa 2.0 is a traitor, married to Bolton’s, supporter of the Lannister’s, after all to Rickon, his sister being engaged to the Lannister’s that killed your mon, dad and Robb, then married to another will permanently sour your perception towards that sibling, just look at medieval history, where GRRM builds his story from. Always remember your history when it comes to GoT, this is a fantasy setting but based on European history, there are no happy endings only bittersweet ones.

        Quote  Reply

    219. Yaga,

      It seems to me that Sansa is the most polarizing of the major characters – Wimsey’s big six (Arya, Bran, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion). People either love her, and love her adaptation from books to show, or hate (or dislike) her and her adaptation. People may quibble with the adaptation of the others (e.g., Tyrion is “whitewashed” from the books to the show, etc.) but Sansa invites the most love and scorn. I wonder why that is.

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    220. Wylie,

      History is replete with noble ladies who are part of dynastic struggles, avoid death, convents, exile when young, and then become significant political players either as the power behind the throne or on the throne itself. Whether Sansa has shown a progression to this is a matter of very strong opinion, one way or another.

      I’ve wondered that if GRRM had progressed with what I understand his original intentions regarding Sansa were, having her marry Joffrey and have his children, if she would not have been a Catherine the Great character, with Cersei as Empress Elizabeth and Joffrey as Peter III, but he did not go in that direction …

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    221. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Sansa helped Littlefinger avoid being charged with MURDER, on the fly, using her tears as a weapon. How is that not calculating? Margery got herself thrown in a cell when she tried lying to a board. Even Tyrion recognized Sansa’s wits and how calculating she is at all times, even when she is drowning in pain and humiliation.

      And as far as leadership, I suggest you watch Blackwater again. Cersei did everything she could to try and break Sansa.

      She forced Sansa to drink and then told her about how the men outside would rape them all if they won. But Sansa didn’t break. Then Cersei revealed that she lied, because the same man that cut off her fathers head was actually there to KILL them when the battle was lost. Loras comes through the door in a panic and tells Cersei the battle is lost, yet Sansa is the only one that remains calm. She stops the panic from the highborn ladies, which was actually Cersei’s job as queen regent, and lies to the women about Joffrey fighting bravely on the battlefield. While Tyrion was outside the walls, doing his best to keep morale up, Sansa was inside the walls doing her job as a lady to keep morale up.

      That episode was so well done because it showed that leaders are not just strong men fighting with swords in their hands, that bravery and courage aren’t just qualities reserved for people literally fighting to the death. Sansa showed bravery, courage, and leadership even as she faced imminent danger of being murdered.

      It’s a lot easier for someone like Dany to show “leadership” when she has advisors falling in love with her and doing everything she tells them to do, oh and when she has Dragons to threaten people with. Sansa isn’t that kind of character. She has to fight as a lady, using her pleasantries to throw people off, and her lies and tears to manipulate people.

      Sansa has been a hostage for most of the series, which severely limited when she would be able to apply her skills, but it’s just not true to say she doesn’t have them. Now she will be able to expand on her qualities.

      (Btw, I also disagree with you saying she isn’t fiery. She has insulted Joffrey to his face with witty or sarcastic remarks several times, she called Ramsay a bastard to his face knowing it was a deep wound for him, and her interactions with Miranda were the very essence of being fiery. Sansa has a rage within her, but like Tyrion noticed, she has just been very slick about keeping it to a simmer. It’ll boil over at some point. Littlefinger might be the one to get burned.)

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    222. Noirgirl,

      I agree. The one thing book Sam did that was somewhat equivalent is to engineer, basically on his own, the election of Jon as Lord Commander. On his own – although some have questions of whether having Mormont’s raven fly out of the kettle was Sam or Bran/Bloodraven …

      My guess is that Sam will experience a chance to grow as a character at the Citadel (or on the show at Horn Hill perhaps) and become the wizard as Gilly calls him (and maybe Pyp in the books)

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    223. Kamali,

      You’re absolutely right, she does have some wolf in her. She also almost pushed Joffrey off the plank after he showed her Ned’s head, but the Hound pulled her back. It’s another reason why people should stop complaining sexism in the treatment of her character, she has had some time to shine. Again, it’s all about the context of how she’s portrayed in season 6. I can see some of those qualities in here, but it depends on how far they go and if it comes across as trying to appease whining fans.

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    224. YgiTTe,
      I’d say this depends on what is the meaning you want to express.

      For reference, the Big 5 of personality traits is: introversion/extraversion, contientiousness/relaxedness, openness to experience/cautiousness, agreeableness/disagreeableness, neuroticism/confidence. I think “agreeableness” is what you may mean?

      Darkrobin,
      I think it’s a combination of:
      – she made some mistakes in Book 1;
      – she’s admittedly pretty stupid in the initial books, believing in songs and whatnot (impossibly so, I think, actually – her naivete was literally like no young girl’s I ever met, which really soured me on Martin’s writing; but I can see especially young men believing that);
      – she’s been a rather passive character the majority of time since. Even her acts of defiance, like not kneeling for Tyrion in the books, often stank of passive-aggression;
      – she is a young woman, and women ARE judged more harshly (scientifically proven!). The second most criticised characters among those you mentioned is probably Dany.

      So, you have a lot of people wanting to criticise her, and on the other hand, you have a lot of people willing to defend her, because they see the criticism as overblown.

      And then, separately, you have the SanSan shippers, and then you have everyone else, who sees them as either ridiculous or disgusting.

        Quote  Reply

    225. LatrineDiggerBrian: Sam killed a Wight. Sam stood up for Gilly when she was about to be raped, even though he got the shit kicked out of him. They both have had moments of courage and cowardice.

      Okay yes, that is true. Neither are warriors, but both have shown courage and compassion.

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    226. YgiTTe:
      Noirgirl,
      “That phrase “girly girl” makes me bristle a little, I have to admit.”

      What word would you have us use instead? The only recognized synonym I found is: Feminine. Because the other ones of: girlish, unmanly, ladylike are either outdated or don’t properly express the meaning in current context. However, the word “feminine” tends to open up a can of worms so….

      That’s just me. Personally, the phrase girly girl is just a cute euphemism for “feminine”. Either way, in certain context, it seems to connote an inherent weakness in the female gender in general: silly, soft, precious, naive, romantic, shallow; Likes pretty things, playing with dolls instead of toy trucks, can’t be bothered learning math. It’s akin to saying “women’s work”. It’s a societal construct.

      Why not just use the actual terms/adjectives, instead of ascribing those qualities to one gender, by using a gender-specific term like girly-girl?

      ehy not just describe, instead of label?
      Sansa, season 1: Naive, romantic, selfish, likes to embroider a bit and eat lemon cake (what girly girl doesn’t)
      Sansa, season 5: Naive turning into jaded, calculating, reluctant victim yet determined to find a way out, stoic (sorry, I’m just not seeing girly girl there)

      Again, it’s just me, but the term still makes me bristle. ?

        Quote  Reply

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