The Emmy Awards red carpet was a Game of Thrones hot spot last night with cast members galore arriving to support the show. Thanks to that, today we have a host of new interviews to pore over for hints at the coming season.
Speaking to People magazine last night, Emilia Clarke revealed that she’s headed to Belfast today to begin her work on season 7. She tells People she’s waking up early today “for a flight to Belfast for work.” As for her fashion sense carrying over to travel, Emilia says, “Most of the time I do try and have like some [style]– and then you just get changed into your pajamas on the plane, but tomorrow I don’t hold much hope.”
Maisie Williams is headed to Belfast as well. Speaking to Access Hollywood, the actress says that she starts shooting again this Wednesday, and that she flew straight from work to Los Angeles last Friday. As for season 7, she has a lot to say, but it boils down to, “It’s going to be heartbreaking and exciting” for fans.
Also back to work this coming Wednesday is Sophie Turner. She tells Access Hollywood she’s headed back, that the cast can sense the end coming, and it’s affecting them. “You can really feel it coming to an end,” Sophie says. “And like so everyone’s staying longer than they normally do, and like people are staying weekends now. Normally as soon as we’re done our scene we just fly home, but now everyone is staying a lot longer because everyone is like, ‘we’re not gonna get this again’ and it’s really sad!”
Clarke spoke to TVLine last night about season 7, hyping up the new season in a big way. “Every single word is a spoiler,” she says and teases “I know everything” after admitting she’s read all the new episodes. When asked about the possibility of a battle comparing to season 6’s Battle of the Bastards, the actress says, “Last season’s battle was ridiculous…but this season is like there’s like, another battle that’s epic.
Turner also talked to TVLine about the exciting new season. “It’s the best season yet, it’s gonna be insane,” she says. “When I read the scripts, I nearly fell off my chair. I couldn’t believe it. Jaw dropped.” After questioning from TVLine, Sophie admits, “Yes, I cried.”
With Entertainment Tonight, Sophie says when pressed, “Umm some crazy dragon stuff happens…The whole thing’s amazing and that’s all I can say.”
Talking to the LA Times, Turner says of season 7, “I think fans are going to be really satisfied.” She also took a moment to show off new tattoo, the date “07.08.09” which is the day that she and Maisie Williams were offered their roles.
“I got it in peach,” Turner explains, “because my mum was like, ‘Make sure it doesn’t show up!'”
Clarke had a similarly strong reaction to the new scripts. She tells Access Hollywood, “I got a little emotional- and not because people are dying. I just got a little emotional…some stuff happens. Some really big stuff.”
It’s always fun seeing what hints shine through the Game of Thrones’ stars attempts to tease without spoiling! With the actresses returning to Belfast, we can look forward to more set reports any day now.
man i wonder which of my faves will die
(probably a couple Starks, maybe Brienne, maybe Davos and Bronn? And Theon?)
Maisie says heartbreaking
Major stuff with dragons
A dragon I think also
“Some crazy dragon stuff happens”
I wonder what is this about…
Um crazy dragon stuff?Are they doing what I’m thinking??And if Emilia cried because not because people dying than reunions come to mind or loosing a dragon?
Maisie “Heartbreaking for the fans”
WHAT I can’t deal with anymore heartbreak…. Hodor
I wonder what made Emilia Clarke so emotional, if not a death.
Sophie saying big dragon stuff, I thought was generic talk. There is big dragon stuff every year. How about some direwolf stuff?!
aunty-nephew union? :S
I’m calling it now: Arya is a casualty this season without a doubt. Possibly Sansa too. 🙁
ghost of winterfell,
Jorah stuff maybe? I hope so.
The stuff that Sophie said about cast members sticking around in Belfast longer makes it sound like they’re already shooting some actors’ final scenes. Got to wonder who makes their exit in Season 7! I’m guessing that the Hound will die saving Arya, Sansa or both. But beyond that, it’s hard to speculate who’s going to be eliminated from Sansa’s storyline. Littlefinger, perhaps.
Ah, so for those of us analyzing the crucial question of Sophie’s hair colour, she hasn’t started filming yet. Wigpocalyse may yet be averted.
If Jorah isn’t at death’s door next time we see him, Dany might broker a reconciliation between him and House Stark, and ask that he be restored to lordship of Bear Island.
I think the Maisie-Sophie tattoo is because one of them dies, Sansa? Arya? It is a “goodbye” tattoo.
That’s what I’m hoping for! And a pleasant one, not a “out of my way, fellow throne-claimant” situation!
Yeah, it’s possible, even though I can’t imagine what. Maybe he doesn’t find a cure and his condition worsens? Idk.
She hasn’t started filming yet? A bit surprising considering she was in Belfast the whole of last week.
I am getting a bad feeling from Sophie’s interviews, first those matching tattoos and now she is talking people spending more time with each other because things are coming to an end. I am worried for Sansa and Arya now
No interviews with Kit, Peter, NCW?
Could be, it’s more likely to happen next season than S8, imo.
I’m not sure what would be emotional about the aunty-nephew reunion. Jon and Dany don’t even know each other. I think it would be mostly awkward.
I think one (or more) of her dragons will be killed and/or turned against her by Euron.
Sansa is being shady towards Jon, so I think she’ll be the one to go. Arya seems safe as always.
These words mostly pointed me at dragons. It seems probable that none of them survive the series so starting to knock them off at the end of this season makes sense.
It’s just my feeling but I think it’s more likely that Sansa would be a casualty before Arya. Arya may put herself in what appears to be more dangerous positions, but she does so with training for such a thing and in a way that’s covert. Otherwise, to most people she would encounter as herself they’re just going to see a low born girl. Sansa on the other hand is naive and pushing herself into a position of importance that not everyone may be happy about. She’s also now well known by appearance. Of course there’s also the part that Littlefinger plays in with her directly and we know that he’ll do anything to achieve his one goal.
There’s also the thoughts of where they’re heading in the books. Sansa doesn’t appear to be headed in the direction of anything overly important while Arya is deep in FM training. That tells me GRRM has a pretty big plan for her.
Im not ready to experience the death of a main character on screen before page.
Its gonna be really hard.
Its always much harder to watch for me than read… Back when I read years ago, I wasn’t so attached to these characters or actors.
I think that death is the best way for Arya’s storyline to end. Death was such a big theme in her story from the beginning.
In the books perhaps, but we only have 13 eps left max. It’s entirely possible Aryas condensed TV arc was to exact vengeance for her family. She’s kinda done that by killing the major Frey players. And her list is almost done..
Jorah is not dying. He will be the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night Watch. It is known!
It is possible even for Sansa to die, but not before she kills LF. But I don’t know what the point of her death would be.
I’m starting to feel fairly certain that Sansa will go this coming season, possibly Arya too but I would hope there is still more for her to do and she makes it. Got to be at least one major “good” character dying and Sansa is the obvious choice.
RIP Sansa. I think Arya’s pretty safe (courtesy of GRRM’s wife).
Littlefinger will probably go as well. Unless Jorah finds a cure, he’s also a goner. I hope the show doesn’t pull another Jon death/resurrection for drama.
The huge dragon stuff is probably a battle against Euron/Cersei. I’d love for Jon to meet the dragons though and see how they react to him. I wouldn’t be surprised if Euron snatches one of the dragons and later the Night’s King could control another.
As for other heartbreaking moments, I imagine Jon finding out about R+L=J will be dramatic for him. If Dany is already there when that happens it could be interesting.
Lyanna Mormont has lordship of Bear Island. She’s not going anywhere, believe me. Ned banished Jorah, the rest of House Stark couldn’t care less about him.
I’m now hoping both Stark sisters die. Just because. And because this “Sansa/Arya will go before the other sister” speculation is getting boring.
S7 is going to be a mess. 🙂
I wonder why so many people want Arya to die. Because she’s popular? She’s barely done anything so far. I think there’s more ahead of her.
I think Cersei will die.
I think Cersei will die…although I know she’s not a fave.
God no. Lyanna should be the only leader for Bear Island. Jorah better recognize. She’s ten times the ruler Jorah would ever be. Even Dany will be in awe of her should they meet.
Agree with most of your post!
But I mean, i’m sorry but who is euron?? I hope and expect he dies next season, because who the fuck is he to come in and destroy a dragon? Lol.
I would HATE that if that happens
A dragon can die (I mean yeah I would be sad), but not at the hands of Euron, whos had two scenes LOL you know?? #ugh
Hmm, I’m getting the feeling that Sansa won’t make it out of S7. The matching tattoos is one thing. But Sophie saying that cast members are sticking around Belfast instead of going home for the weekends gives me the sense that she’s talking about herself and Maisie. It seems like Sophie hasn’t started filming yet (hence the blonde) yet she was all over Belfast last week with Maisie. Could it be this is it the final season for Sansa and Sophie wants to relish the time with Maisie in Belfast before she has to say goodbye to it all?
Or it could be Arya who dies this season. Maybe she bites off more than she can chew? Honestly thought, other than foolishly thinking she can take on the Mountain, I can’t think of a scenario where Arya would die before S8. Plus, she was one of the characters that GRRM said would make it to the end. Obviously not that she will survive the entire saga but that she would make it to see the final act. And S7 isn’t the final act. If a Stark sister dies in S7, my money is on Sansa, and Littlefinger will play some part in it.
I’d hate it too! I’ll hate it in the books too if it happens, but at least it feels a bit more plausible, even if a bit ridiculous.
yeah, I have not read the books yet, but I hear you see more of him in the books.
ugh I really hope not.
I also think Varys is at risk. He’s already brought Dany to Westeros, so his main role is pretty much done.
There was a foreign language interview a few weeks back with the actor who plays the Mountain. He was asked how The Mountain would die and he said he’d die fighting two dragons. He kills one while the other kills him.
Everyone kind of just overlooked that because it’s just pretty much how he’d like his character to die, but…well…what if it wasn’t? What if he misunderstood or something and actually spoiled it for real, and maybe lost in translation didn’t realize he was on the record or something. I don’t know, but a quote like that at the very least fits with what’s being teased here about crazy dragon stuff and Emilia being emotional, etc.. Just food for thought.
Something has to happen to at least one of the dragons because otherwise Dany would win by episode 2.
Arya was one of the characters that GRRM said would make it to the end, but that Arya was different from this version of Arya.
I am guessing this one too… Them staying a little longer together after work… its because some won’t make it next season…
I had thought earlier that one of the Stark sisters would be gone by the end of Season 7, but now I’m thinking it could be both!
From Emilia’s “emotional” talk, I would say Daenerys and Jon meet as family.
And battles of course, but we already knew that.
House Stark couldn’t care less about Jorah…until they need Dany’s dragons to fight the wights, and she makes restoring him one of her non-negotiable bargaining points. Don’t forget: The showrunners saw fit to include the bit from the books about Sam witnessing Jeor’s last words, that he forgives his son and wishes for his exile to be ended. They could easily have cut that out, but they didn’t, so it’s clearly meant to foreshadow something. And Jon has too much respect for the Old Bear to disregard his deathbed request.
I don’t quite get the notion that Lyanna Mormont can’t be replaced just because she’s a badass 10-year-old. The Bear Islanders might practice more gender equality than most places in Westeros, but it’s still part of a deeply entrenched patriarchal society. Jorah would be the rightful heir if his banishment were lifted by the King in the North.
And surely they can find other badass things for Baby Bear to do. Maybe she and Arya will become best buddies and sail off together with Yara/Asha to explore the New World across the Sunset Sea. Somebody has to discover chocolate!
Not by Euron though.
Nice shout out to Ramin by Kobe
Of course it’d be awkward, very awkward.
But Dany’s always looking up to Rhaegar, and Jon being Rhaegar’s son might get her emotional. At least she know that there’s someone else who still shares her blood alive.
(Some people find it emotional, including me or maybe Emilia herself, but of course some people may not xD)
Kinda hope for more Targaryen conflict though, because I think it will be boring if they can get along well in their very first meet
But it’s conflict not drama I’m hoping for
This is of course a wild guess, since we have nothing to go on, but I do feel Arya is the one to go in S7. I think she eventually has to choose between (A) (re)joining her family and help them or (B) continue her path of blind revenge (which is what she will choose). I may misremember this but I think Ned even mentioned the lone wolf dying, but the pack surviving (pretty sure it is from the books though). Couple this with possible foreshadowing from the first book (Jon to Arya: “You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”) and I believe it a suitable ending for her storyline.
Also convinced that Drogon is going down (might be a different one in the books eventually, but he is the only one people care a bit about in the show).
I just imagined finishing ASoIaF and GRRM has all of the dragons and direwolves live (minus Lady & Grey Wind). That’s not likely but then I’d be SUPER pissed if D&D killed them all.
But Sophie says “But we don’t know if we’re going to make it, so Maisie and I were like, ‘OK, let’s get these ones before anyone kills us.’ Which is so possible.”
We know they have read season 7 so that implies they make it out alive considering they don’t know their death.Sure she could be lying but I think we are reading too much into the tattoos.
I agree, too much wild speculation based on unfounded assumptions – but then again no different to any other off season, and it’s fun 🙂
Jorah’s entire existence is now his Khaleesi. He’s not going back to Bear Island to rule. He will stay by Dany’s side until he dies. And no one is going to discover chocolate. This is Ragnorak. Everyone will be too busy trying not to freeze to death or become Walker fodder.
But if not Euron, who will?
Stark sisters may have a cliffhanger ending in the finale. I suspect that structurally S7 might be similar to S4: a big event in early-mid season (Dany’s defeat in the naval battle in this case) and then 3-4 episodes for recovery and rising up for the final battle. We have to remember that there will be 6 more episodes/hours in S8 and that’s about the same screen time as The Two Towers and The Return of the King combined. They have to keep something for these 6 hours IMO.
Yeah that is certanily possible.Considering it’s going to be the last season I suspect we are going to have lots of cliffhangers.
There’s nobody else.
If they pull a The Walking Dead cliffhanger on them people are going to be so angry lol.
Maybe Bronn and the Hound finally have their fight, and end up killing each other?
Maybe Sansa thinks she has outwitted Littlefinger, but he survives and his men kill her. Brienne sees this and take out Littlefinger – although I don’t think anyone will be sad about that.
I think Arya will survive, Cersei will perish, Yara will die, and a dragon will die as well. And somehow they will find out that they will have to burn its body.
Jorah’s already received a royal pardon, remember.
But I don’t think he’d want Bear Island back. He knows what he did was wrong, accepted his punishment and relinquished his title, leaving Longclaw for Jeor to hand on to somebody else.
I don’t remember the scene you mention about Sam hearing Jeor’s final words. While he was dying (being repeatedly stabbed by Rast) and Grenn, Edd and co were fighting the mutineers Sam was off escaping with Gilly.
I think you must be confusing the books with the show.
Tywin of the Hill,
The Mountain or the White Walkers could take out one of the smaller dragons.
I could totally see the Mountain killing a dragon, especially after his horse decapitating exploits in the early seasons.
Someone mentioned above the possibility of the Mountain killing a dragon and then getting killed by another. I could picture him killing one and then Drogon roasting him and ripping him to bits in revenge.
Bear Island has a ferocious leader already. Lyanna is more North than Jorah could ever hope to be. Why take away Lyanna’s seat? Jorah should take the black as his father wanted.
Unless she dies first. Or she orders him to become her vassal in charge of Bear Island. She likes giving orders, and expects strict obedience. Jorah will not gainsay her wishes, even if it means not being by her side guarding her.
There will certainly be a coda of some sort at the very end, in which we find out what at least a few of the survivors are up to after the War for the Dawn is over. The chocolate bit is a ‘bittersweet’ joke, obviously; but I would not be at all surprised if the very last scene of Season 8 were a shot of a ship sailing westward with one or more of our favorite characters aboard it, like Frodo heading toward Valinor. Arya makes the most sense for that scene.
That was how I read the situation too, since they had the tattoos after reading the scripts… But who knows ? After all, it may just be two 20-somethings having fun getting a tat’, bless ’em ! 😉
As for the body count, it will of course increase. This is Game of Thrones after all ^^
They already thinned the herd quite significantly this season and the process will continue next year. My guesses, not wishes, are :
– Cersei : she is a mobile phone with 100% battery but no charger at that point;
– Euron : he will be a great foe to Daenerys, cause damage to her fleet and then die (Storm’s End !!!);
– one of the Greyjoy siblings : I would be tempted to say Theon but it could just as well be Yara;
– Lady Olenna : the official end of House Tyrell;
– Ellaria Sand and one of the Sand Snakes : As narrative payback for Myrcella’s death;
– Edmure ? : I am not quite certain on that one but he may die trying to redeem himself for what he may perceive as his past betrayal of his family;
– Meera ? : Absolutely not sure but, after Bran crosses the Wall, she may become a tad “purposeless” from a narrative standpoint. Regardless, that would break my heart;
– Sweetrobin : To continue with the “end of Houses” theme and because his personality (weak with a streak of mindless disregard for people’s lives) makes him too unstable to be relied on as an ally to the North. Someone else must take over the Vale;
– Littlefinger ? : He will die eventually anyway… I just have a hard time figuring out if it will be this season or the next.
In regards to the emotional punch all three actresses described, it really could relate to anything. Any event has the potential to be profoundly moving if treated appropriately. As an example, Joffrey’s death, while wished for by many of us, was deeply emotional : his mother’s despair was soulcrushing (Lena Headey did an amazing job with that scene) and gave an otherwise “justified” murder a dimension of personal tragedy.
I, for one, am convinced the demise of Cersei, in spite of all her misdeeds, will be deeply troubling, not unlike her “walk of atonement”…
Arya kills Sansa with Needle, in defense of Jon, as foreshadowed when he gave it to her in Season 1.
The Night(‘s) King and a never-ending horde of animated bodies.
Nobody thinks Daenerys with her dragons can be stopped from conquering Westeros (without the use of some silly item that hasn’t even been mentioned on the show). In the same vein, without a dragon or two or three what chance do the people have against a constantly replenished army of unfeeling killing machines? Also, while giant ice spiders haven’t been seen, they have been mentioned and could make things even more difficult. Even if it were possible to outfit everybody with Valyrian steel that wouldn’t be enough.
If Sansa dies that way, it would be a complete and utter waste of her character.
but I do feel Arya is the one to go in S7. I think she eventually has to choose between (A) (re)joining her family and help them or (B) continue her path of blind revenge (which is what she will choose). I may misremember this but I think Ned even mentioned the lone wolf dying, but the pack surviving (pretty sure it is from the books though
Actually, I would guess so too. And I would even guess in the books she may never manage to leave Braavos alive (but warg into Nymeria instead before dying: the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives) since Jaqen isn’t around to let her go. In the series, she’s used as a plot device to kill Walder Frey (instead of LSH or Nymeria, probably). If she really can take anyone’s face, Cersei should be gone by S7E1, unless there’s some miraculous delay so another Valonqar can take her place. Besides, weren’t the faces poisonous to anyone but noone? I suppose Arya will meet some older acquaintances in an emotional manner, and then die. But of course all speculation 😉
I meant until the WW arrive. That was what the conversation was about.
I’ll take your Arya kills Sansa and raise you: Jon mistakenly kills Arya only to realise who he’s killed Arya when he sees Needle.
Alternatively, the Hound, Brienne and Gendry would all recognise Needle too, so any of them can be substituted in for Jon.
In all seriousness, I still think that “no-one can protect me” line from Sansa last season was deliberate. I think Arya will come to Sansa’s rescue at some point.
If every line foreshadows the character’s fate, what would you say about “Lady Stark, you may survive us all.”? Stark sisters had very strained relationship at the beginning of the story and now, when they are separated, they miss each other. But one killing another when they meet again? I think that would be way too extreme and if Arya really does it, she is definitely too far gone and beyond redemption.
Ooh that’d be fittingly ironic and heartbreaking as well.
What do you suppose she’d be rescuing Sansa from?
Ah. Got it.
I don’t think every line is foreshadowing. However, Sansa very well could outlive everyone, as she seems to somehow manage to be rescued at every turn. I doubt it would be something Arya would seek to do, but she and Jon have been the closest, so if it came to it, yup.
No, he would never go against a direct order from Dany…
Perhaps Arya will die and come back as a Lady Stoneheart figure. We already know much will go on in the Riverlands.
Sansa isn’t going to die. Narratively speaking – everything told, by way of GRRM’s overall story – it makes no sense for the remaining Stark children to die. Ned and Catelyn and Robb (and Rickon, who was never anything but superfluous) were sacrificed so the next generation could come into its own. Bran has a long-term role to play in shaping the destiny of Westeros. Sansa came from spoiled brat origins to become a Survivor, and she will ultimately be the matriarch of the new Stark dynasty (probably as Warden of the North). Arya’s journey from middle-child obscurity to assassin will likely be served as the new family black sheep, possibly becoming a knight like Brienne. And Jon… regardless of his parentage, he was raised as part of the Stark family… he’s destined to sit next to Dany when she takes the throne.
Jon, Sansa, Arya and Bran, along with Dany and Tyrion, will I’m sure survive through to the end.
The heartbreak will be fulfilled by others. Meera is going to pay the price to bring Bran to fruition. Brienne and Yara and Theon will likely perish keeping their lords and ladies from dying. Littlefinger is eventually going to get his comeuppance; there’s no lyricism in letting him survive to the last day. The Hound, Davos and Melisandre all have roles to play in the final battles to come.
The only thing that really scares me is that something bad will happen to Sam. Sam Tarly can’t die. Sam Tarly is AWESOME. They better not do that. 🙂
Yeah, Robin has to die at some point.
As you say, it would continue the theme of the Great Houses of Westeros being eradicated before Daenerys has her chance to “break the wheel”, and the theme of weak men being unfit to rule.
They’ve already shown on a couple of occasions how useless he is as a warrior, so even if they kept him alive long enough to lead the Vale into the final battle he’d surely die.
But getting him out of the way might have been the next step in Littlefinger’s plan, hoping to unite the North and the Vale under he and Sansa.
Jon has become a spanner in those works, but Littlefinger may still go ahead with a plan to eliminate Robin and unite the North and the Vale and worry about getting rid of Jon further down the line.
Hey, Jon himself is saying that there’s a big war on the horizon. Theoretically, all Littlefinger’s gotta do is get all the pieces of the puzzle in place and hope Jon dies during the war while he and Sansa sit safely on the sidelines.
Daenerys and Bran turning up might throw more spanners in the works, but killing of Robin Arryn and uniting the North and the Vale would be a logical first step regardless.
I think Daenerys will die at the end, mostly because of the vision in the House of the Undying. And there were several implications, that she is a savior, not a ruler. I cannot imagine her sitting on the IT and I don’t think GRRM made the ending to be that predictable. Also, there is a “bittersweet” part of the ending, which he compared to Frodo being forced to leave Middle Earth at the end of LOTR.
Good. She’s just a ‘portal’ to witness and relay important information about other characters and happenings in her locations anyway. 🙂
Seriously though, she’s done so little herself in the books other than mope around that D&D gave her the story arc of a minor character that was more interesting. It’s really not even completely false to describe her as a portal so far in the books. She’s just been a piece moved around other people doing things to other people. Will she actually do any of the things she did in season 6 or were they just machinations they created to keep Sophie involved? We don’t know since the last we’ve read of her she’s playing dress up and dancing.
I couldn’t disagree more. What “important information” did we learn from Sansa’s chapters in KL? If I remember right, the political storyline was told from Tyrion’s perspective and Sansa’s chapters were about her and her alone.
That characterization has been made sometimes, but it really does not hold up. Sansa’s chapters in the books (at least prior to going to the Vale) do not contain any noticeable quantity of exposition that require her POV to deliver. The point of her chapters are to develop her character (a lot of which involves her gradually developing — though not fast enough for many readers — observational skills).
Littlefinger, perhaps, if it happened this coming season.
Thinking even further ahead, I’m not sure what the producers plan to happen during the War for the Dawn and whether non-combatants will have to evacuate the North or hide out somewhere, but I could see Arya keeping an eye on Sansa while everybody else is off fighting.
I don’t think the producers will put Arya on the front line, if she’s still alive at that point, and I think they’ll have to find some drama somewhere for any remaining characters who aren’t directly involved in the final battles.
I usually do not agree with you, but I definitely agree in this case. Sansa is definitely not just a “walking camera” in KL.
Well, I think it’s pretty much guaranteed now that Sansa dies.
Gawd, it’s tough to remember, at times, where various character were and what they were doing the last time we saw them in the books.
I feel like that’s too much of a happy ending. It sounds great! 🙁 But both GRRM and the show writers aren’t known for sparing main characters. I honestly think that with Maisie and Sophie’s reaction one or both of the Stark sisters will die this upcoming season.
I mostly worry for Sansa because Brienne is not around to protect her, she’s totally exposed! If she hitches her wagon to LF she’s doomed. If she tries to outsmart him and doesn’t succeed I don’t think he’ll hesitate to kill her.
Arya, I think if she goes to Kings Landing to try take on Cersei and the Mountain she will die. If she heads to Winterfell she’ll probably run into the BHWB, the Hound, Brienne, (Gendry?) who are also on their way to Winterfell, I feel like her chances of survival are higher with them around.
Dany, omg so many emotions why? I agree with everyone, maybe she finds out the fate of Jorah (good or bad) Or maybe finding out that her brother had a son? Maybe as she gets closer to Westeros she’ll feel alone?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
And GRRM confirmed that Tyrion and Daenerys will not have many scenes together in the next novel.
Well in that case everyone might as well die now, there’s no point in going on! 😉
The realisation there’s no chocolate! 🙁
Sansa is one of my favorite characters in the books and the show because of her dramatic arc and character evolution, along with Jaime, Theon and a few others. So according to her character arc, I only see two possible endings for Sansa: she dies sacrificing herself in order to protect her family (I’m sure that will envolve Littlefinger too, and she’ll have to sacrifice herself to kill him) or she survives until the end of the series, after the White Walkers defeat and she’s one of the few remaining characters left alive to restore Westeros.
I’ll always expected Sansa to get the second one, because I thought it would be more tragic for her to rebuild up the world after suffering so much and probably being the only one left of her family. But since season 6 ending I’m rooting for my first option, because it will fix better in her arc and in the logic of the show. Sansa begun the story wanting to leave her home and rejecting her family; she’ll end it recovering her home and dying for her family, what it would be a great and tragic character arc. She’s the only one capable of killing Littlefinger and she knows that. She’s aware that Petyr won’t stop for nothing until he gets what he wants and she’ll have to face him alone.
I don’t see Arya dying until S8. I’m sure she’ll be the one of the characters that will face the third act, but she won’t make it to the end.
Sansa’s death will be more heartbreaker than any other if she dies sacrificing for her family, as I said, just after she reunited with the rest of her lost siblings.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I get why people think Robin is going to die in the books, but in the show? It’s explicitly show in Season 6 that the only reason Littlefinger isn’t thrown in the slammer by the Valemen is that Robin is an idiot who does whatever Littlefinger tells him to do. It is not remotely in Baelish’s interest to get rid of him, and in any event, Robin’s off in the Vale, nowhere near the main action of the series at this point. I wouldn’t be surprised if we never see him again.
If Sansa dies for her family and takes LF with her, that would be a perfect ending (and possibly very emotional one) for her story. I would love to see this.
Gendry is coming back and I think Arya will meet him and feel some ‘love’ . It will make her more human again.
Arya will definitely meet the hound and the red women. Her connection with the hound is big and the red women said: we will meet again.
But whom will kill Arya? Maybe she takes a face and being killed by accident. Other possibility: after meeting the Hound, red women and Gendry she decided to go to KL. But I don’t see why Gendry or the red women wants to go to KL. Only the hound has an argument: fighting against his brother.
Overall I think Arya will be gone at the end of s7. But for good? If she dies in the riverlands,there is a chance of coming back. But I don’t think she will be resurrected.
Love the speculation. I agree that killing Sansa in S7 would be premature, her development although maddeningly slow at times, needs to lead to LFs demise. Like Arya, they have to have big pay-off scenes coming up. Killing them now would feel cheap, yeah I said it.
“No One can protect me”. Arya be your sister’s savior!!
Unfortunately, this is very likely. That last scene of Sansa’s hinted at her joining Petyr against Jon and the show even put them on opposing political parties. So there will absolutely be conflict between Sansa and Jon with her working with Petyr against Jon. When Arya returns with her pack and the Brotherhood, she will most certainly side with Jon and could possibly be the player that turns the tide for him if Petyr/Sansa somehow get an advantage over him.
I always thought it would be Jon executing Sansa and Petyr (both of whom will probably this season), but Arya doing it with Needle would fit. This makes me think of the Needle scene in the books where Jon/Arya say, “don’t tell Sansa” together, showing and possibly foreshadowing their unity against her.
And the S.S. Abandoned Plotlines gets another crew member.
It’s possible. I kept thinking all during the time they were teasing Sansa/Jon angst, that Arya is the wild card to that angst. There is no way that book or show Arya would let Sansa and/or Littlefinger hurt Jon Snow. There isn’t anyone she would let hurt Jon Snow. So I kept on thinking if Sansa is going to work against Jon with Arya back in the picture and vicinity of them…how is this going to work?
”Don’t knock it down while i’m gone.” – Jon Snow
On a very futile sidenote, may I point out how gifted Lino Facioli is at physical comedy ? It takes some amazing talent to look so utterly inept ! ^^
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man
I agree wholeheartedly that it is his endgame, indeed. However, for the moment, he does not quite need Sweetrobin dead. After all, Littlefinger has no legitimate claim over the Vale; his ability to control the region relies entirely on the blind faith the last of the Arryns has in him. On the show, there is no HH for Sansa to marry so she can inherit the Vale and it may be a bit too late to introduce him now. So, as things stand, should Sweetrobin meet his maker, it could create an problematic power vacuum for Baelish.
That is why I am tempted to believe Cersei will be the one behind the Arryn heir’s death.
Littlefinger betrayed her : he promised he would conquer the North for the Lannisters and give her Sansa’s head on a spike. Instead he declared the Vale for House Stark, thereby seriously weakening her position. And Sansa is still very much alive. Cersei knows Baelish’s hold on the region depends on the boy so she may be tempted to take out his puppet to distabilise him and possibly get the Vale for herself.
However, Robin might have written a will (why would a 14-year-old write a will ? I have literally no idea ! ^^) in which he bequeathes his region to… His stepdad whom he loves so much ? His cousin whom he intends/intended to marry ? His pet falcon ?
Cersei’s moves have the unfortunate tendency to come back to bite her in the butt. It would be fitting for her to bury another Westerosi House, hoping to weaken an enemy, only to find out that it strengthened another… Like with the Tyrells and the High Sparrow.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man
I cannot shake the impression that Littlefinger knows, or at least suspects, Jon’s true parentage. After all, it is not all that hard to figure out : Ned “so honourable he would never cheat on his wife” Stark comes back from the war with a bastard son and a “raped” sister who died under undisclosed circumstances at around the same time the child was born… Many readers had guessed it back in the 90s 😉
Furthermore, Baelish had a very subdued reaction to Sansa’s “Lyanna’s abduction” tale, back in the Winterfell crypts.
If he “knows”, Littlefinger may think Jon is not that much of a problem anyway, considering the Northeners’ animosity towards the Targaryens. He just has to wait to drop the R+L=J bomb.
That’s the thing about pawns : if they manage to survive long enough to cross the chessboard, one square at a time, they get promoted : rook, bishop, knight or… queen ! ^^
BookSansa has not been in the Vale for that long, has she ? The events of A Dance with Dragons take place in 300 AC, if I remember correctly. That’s only two years after Ned’s death, isn’t it ?
She might not have been at the Eyrie for more than 8-10 months, I would guess. It feels endless to us bookreaders because the novels themselves are long and we have to wait a lot for a new one to be published but, within the Planetosi chronology, time is moving at a snail’s pace…
And again, what would be the point of Sansa if that’s her fate? A total waste of a character. She must accomplish something, outsmart someone before going down.
I just don’t care for the character.
I don’t know exactly how much she’s developing. Her sample chapter from the next book has her acting quite a bit as she did in the beginning.
The way I’ve read it, outside of her pining, complaining or suffering I’ve seen her chapters as another pov and a pawn/tool in developing other story arcs and characters she’s interacted with as much as her own.
– She betrayed Arya which led to more development of Arya than her own (her distrust of people, hatred of Cersei & Joffrey, The Hound initially) and showing that honorable Ned will even kill his daughter’s pet if the king tells him to.
– She betrayed her father (in the books), which was a big element in Robert’s death, Ned’s beheading, Littlefinger’s development, or our enlightenment that he’s not a good or honest person, the war…
– She was an instrument used to display the full ruthlessness of Joffrey on many occasions
– Tyrion’s character and storyline was propelled quite a bit simply by her inclusion in it….
I guess I just look at Sansa as a character that was (there) as a piece in moving other character’s storylines forward as she herself has had little progression.
Sansa’s “betrayal” of her father had nothing to do with Ned’s death. It was Ned himself who made a mistake in the first place (telling Cersei about it) and the ultimate betrayal came from LF.
The fact that Robin is back in the Vale and Littlefinger is in the North probably makes it even more likely that he’ll have him killed. Gives him plausible deniability.
Robin’s usefulness has to come to an end at some point. Littlefinger can’t rely on being able to manipulate him forever.
If Littlefinger’s endgame is to use Sansa to take the Iron Throne then he needs to unite as much power and as many kingdoms under her rule.
I guess he could do that through marriage between Robin and Sansa, and then look to be rid of Robin further down the line. But I think Sansa is far less likely to play along after what happened with Ramsay.
The alternative is to try and ally the North and the Vale under one ruler, and that means Robin Arryn needs to go bye-bye.
Of course, it’s a risk. As you say, Robin was the only thing standing between him and Lord Royce. But he may bank on Sansa protecting him while they are all in the North and try to manipulate a union between the kingdoms under one ruler.
Maybe his former little birds will do the deed. Varys thinks children are “blameless”…maybe it’s like Karsi and the child walkers in “Hardhome”, where she couldn’t stab them even though they were hacking at her.
Varys better not make contact with the birds; they’ve changed.
I hope they kill off Lyanna…such an annoying character! Also from the way Sophie was talking I think both she and Maisey are safe this season…I also think Jon and Danny will make it thru but both will be killed in the last season…Sansa will be Queen in the North, it is known 🙂
I cannot see any of the Stark sisters dying in Season 7. I feel like Sansa is building up to do something and Arya I feel has to get involved with Jon at some point that’s a lot of travelling.
A lot of the folk I think will die In Season 8 – i predict two major deaths in Season 7 – in the finale the Lannister twins. I reckon some people like jorah, Euron, Grey Worm will possibly perish too and surely that’s not the end of Daario so abruptly..?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
But Sansa has no claim whatsoever to rule the Vale. The title to the Eyrie would just pass back to whoever the next-closest Arryn descendant is.
I like your idea of Cersei inadvertently doing Littlefinger’s dirty work for him re. Robin Arryn.
That would also make the Lords of the Vale gravitating towards a union with the North more plausible, simply as a matter of self-defence.
Or perhaps Littlefinger will just make it look like the Lannisters killed Robin. He does have some previous on that sort of deception.
Regarding Littlefinger knowing about Jon’s parentage, the real problem lies in proving it. It’s going to be hard enough to convince Jon himself, even if Bran’s the one telling him, let alone the rest of the Lords of the North or the Seven Kingdoms. Even if he has his suspicions I don’t think it’s information he can readily use to discredit Jon.
Oooh, you’re right. He’s like a mini-Roberto Benigni, isn’t he?
Not that I want either of them to die, but I think Arya would be first to go. Sansa’s whole arc has been learning to rule. She’s become politically savvy and has outsmarted her enemies, showed she’s kind and caring (as with Ser Dontos and the ladies in the Red Keep during Blackwater), has learned the value of family and home and has since been trying to reunite the Starks. Arya’s chosen a life of violence. She may reunite with her family but she may not be able to stay, living the way she has. Kind of how Daryl in TWD didn’t think he could settle back into civilized life after being basically feral for so long. Though I’d be happy with her winding up a wanderer.
As for Sansa saying last season that no one could protect her, it seemed to me that Jon made a point of doing so, what with nearly beating Ramsay to death and all, then having the respect to let her finish the job.
Otherwise I got goosebumps reading about all the upcoming heartbreak. Hold the door has broken me. I don’t want more, but I do!
…haven’t read everything, but it seems quite a few people think Sansa may die. It would be sad if she died without redeeming herself in some way..re the family betrayal. If she doesn’t, then all her prevaricating would have been for naught.
Who said she “must” do that before going down? Who says any character has to accomplish something before they die? I can’t recall GRRM ever saying that. However, he has said that Sansa was created to cause problems within the family. She also works as a convenient camera into the Kings Landing and Vale stories. So her dying when she’s no longer useful for the latter and as a result of problems she’s caused for her family is fitting in my opinion. Besides, the show already gave the illusion that she accomplished something when she let lots of Northerners die pointlessly so she could say, “surprise! Petyr brought a Vale army that I didn’t tell you about beforehand just so I could glory in this moment of saving you when you really could have waited till they got here before going to battle and thus has a better chance of surviving! Aren’t I clever!” She also got to kill Ramsay, which is achieving something. D&D probably changed her story so they give her these moments of achievement so when she inevitably dies, it would seem more important. In the books she’ll probably be executed for murdering Robin Arryn, which will be less satisfying than seeing her betray an actual main character before being executed.
Tell that to GRRM who has said that she is partially to blame.
What’s the matter, Sue… can’t spell foshiiiiszlaaa?
And Jon’s a bastard; Roose Bolton had no claim to the North; Joffrey had no claim to the Iron Throne; Stannis was the rightful King but nobody supported him; Walder Frey had no claim to the Riverlands…
Lines of succession can be broken, as the show has demonstrated.
If the rightful heir is obscure or weak or non-existent (the writers could easily decide there is no strong claim) then the Lords of the Vale could look to another strong leader, especially during a time of conflict or if it secures an alliance that would guarantee the Vale’s ongoing security.
It’s not implausible that Littlefinger could manipulate a situation where the Vale looks to pledge themselves to the King (or Queen) in the North rather than a weak claim from within their own ranks.
Hi Lulu! (Waves)
Maybe the discovery of chocolate is the big twist ending the producers have been hinting at for the end of the series!
The speculations about everything are making me salty and punchy. 🙂
Sansa is NOT a walking camera! Her chapters are about her and her alone. Building up a character, who doesn’t achieve anything for several books and then killing them off without any payoff is a very bad writing and a total and utter waste of a character.
The producers have called Sansa “the character we care about the most” and “one of the most important characters in season 6”. They justified Sansa’s actions and not Jon’s in season 6, saying that she was in the right.
Judging by your words, it is almost clear that you are Sansa hater so I have nothing more to discuss with you.
See, if anything would lead a person to say “Eff it, I’m out”, and go join the Walkers as the Night Queen, that’d surely be it!
EXACTLY! I honestly don’t think that the remaining Stark children are going to die. In fact, I don’t think the remaining Stark children are going to see anything worse than they’ve seen so far. I think the worst is behind them. All four of them have suffered so ridiculously and tremendously that NOW and until the end is when they FINALLY start to see *their figurative summer.* Which is their Winter. The Stark words are ‘Winter is Coming.’ Well, Winter is here now, so it’s their time. Their time to bloom and blossom. They’ve been dealt the worst of the worse hands, and now things are going to start turning around. Last season was the turning point.
And I agree, the same can be said to a degree for our other “heroes” Dany and Tyrion who haven’t suffered as much as the Stark children, but also suffered and faced losses, and had their turning point last season as well.
I’m not saying it’s going to end in sunshine and flowers and rainbows; I’m just saying that the worst is over for the Stark kids remaining (and Dany and Tyrion). And I don’t think they’re going to die. The deaths of the Stark is done. Jon Stark/Targareyn, Sansa, Arya and Bran Stark are the next generation of House Stark. Danerys and Jon Stark/Targareyn are the next generation of House Targareyn. Tyrion Lannister is the next generation of House Lannister.
Honestly, I think too many people are expecting TOO much death and awfulness at the end. What’s the point of watching the journey and going through all of this misery, if there’s so little light and joy at the end? GRRM is a way better storyteller than that.
Uh, yeah, no. Whatever may happen to Book!Sansa, it will not be that.
As far as the Stark sister death speculation, if one of them was dying this season, it would be Sansa. However, I think all the speculation around this is very overheated, seeing as it is based mainly on the girls choosing to get tattoos.
lol, no I actually enjoy the Sansa of the novels as she is the one I am most able to identify with. I do despise D&D’s Sansa though. But judging by your words, it is almost clear that you are the type of Sansa Stan tm who accuses others of being haters just because we don’t see her as the most perfect and absolutely most important of the characters. I enjoy Sansa as she is, not as stans want her to be. But please, continue to feel the need to discuss nothing more with me ?
It’s true, D&D have definitely cottoned on to Sansa and plugged her importance in the story much more than the character initially ever was. The strange thing I’ve found is when they come out with interpretations of her actions that no one watching the show really saw. But everyone has their favourites.
As a hater of hatred, I’m not accusing anyone but considering how disposable she seems to you (being exectued for trying to murder Robin Arynn????) I would never think you are a fan of her.
Yes, I can admit that I always prefered TV Sansa over her book counterpart but in season 6, I started to like her even more, to the point that she became my favorite character. Read my reviews in book readers recap comment section for more details.
Any way, I’m out of here for a while. This discussion has become overheated and I do not come to WOTW to get involved into comment war. LFU group needs me more than this.
I can see Jaime ending the Mad Queen as he did the Mad King, and the remainder of her KL posse going out; I can also see both LF being killed when Sandor Clegane makes it to the North and lets everyone in on the details of what happened when Ned was arrested, and Daenerys losing some of her team (it is too bloated to survive season seven, and she has to take a hit on some of them). But please no – the Starks and their direwolves have suffered enough!!
I do think one of the dragons will go in season seven – probably Viserion for reasons. I can also see Euron going too as I think season eight will be devoted to the war with the White Walkers (thus meaning that the majority of human villains – if not all of them – will be gone by the end of season seven). And as I think that the Wall will be breached in season seven, I think that we will lose Edd and the remainder of the Night’s Watch.
Thinking back, the last time we permanently lost a central character was – depending on your point of view – either Tywin at the end of season four, or Stannis at the end of season five. I think we are due to lose someone big, and am completely dreading it. While I think Cersei and LF – central characters – will be gone by the end of season seven, I think we will also lose someone we don’t want to see killed. At least one someone. This is not good!!!
Sidebar: Less Gendry, the Baratheons are gone; less Olenna, the Tyrells as we know them are gone (as the extended Tyrell family members mentioned in the books do not exist in the show); the Arryns are down to Sweetrobin – which Great Houses do we think will be extinct by the end of season eight? Am hoping that House Stark survives in some form!!!
Calling it now Daenerys burns down winterfell and kills every northren lords including Starks. holy shit, as expected Daenerys won’t go easy on both Starks and Lannisters
Sounds foreboding… looks like Sansa or Arya is gonna bite it next season. It’s more likely Sansa. She’s in a very dangerous position now – either as a pawn (unwitting or not) or a collateral damage/sacrifice to bring Littlefinger down.
Arya is in the front line danger kind, but I doubt she’s gonna die any time soon. She still has a crucial role to play in the endgame, after all Grrm gave her her own training montage. It’ll be a waste to kill her after that.
Some people think the big casualties will be from Dany vs Cersei battle but it seems something huge is gonna happen in the North as well. A Shakespearean tragedy drama.
Well, then her role and chapters surrounding that whole mess were even less impactful I guess. So she complained about not wanting to be sent away from KL and then became Cersei’s tool by having Sansa write the letters that Ned is a traitor and that she is being treated well.
Could it be the Starks coming back together as a family, albeit for a short while? I didn’t think it was going to happen up until recently, but I’ve been having second thoughts about that (can’t explain why).
Regarding the tatoos, I won’t read further into that… I can picture Arya being the one with higher probabilities to die, but I don’t see that happening. In fact, I don’t think we would lose any more Starks. As for the rest…
Oh, the wait!!!
They say this literally every year. Yawn…
oh god, I hope you were being sarcastic! Everything is ewwww!!!
Please no. Sansa is the most cringey character.
I think so, too. Sadly, I think it’ll be Sansa, though I’m really only going on the fact that GRRM once said something about Arya being an endgame character, and that Sophie said “she cried”, which would lead me to believe she got the Soprano walk. I was really hoping we were done killing Starks.
Also I think one of the dragons will die.
That doesn’t mean they’ll keep her character alive beyond the point where she can move the story forward. It really all depends if she (or anyone else) is an endgame character. D&D also loved working with Rose Leslie. Weiss said killing Ygritte was the hardest death they had to write, mostly because they wouldn’t see her on set anymore. But they still did it.
What could be so emotional for daenerys ..
I don’t know may be its one of the following.:
Welcome home my Queen- she coming back to place where she born and her ancestors ruled.
Red keep and KL burned by cersei and abandoned – the house with red door she hoping to find in the KL ( every time i think about this scene i am reminded about sirius black and harry talking about Hogwarts and staying together before pettigrew escapes) is all in ashes and abandoned and all winter with no greenesss to be found ..
Finding out she is not alone in the world and she has a family member and she can have a family- her whole story has been about how she never had anyone to call a family and taking care of her..
Killing one of her dragons- if chaining the dragons was so emotional think about how emotional it will be for her to kill a dragon that has been turned against her and people..
I certainly dont want that to happen but if a dragon is turned and used by euron to fight dany ..than dany will be forced to take that dragon down and she will kill euron on top of dragon and the dragon will be injured with his fight against drogon..
And the injured dragon will be kept in the dragon pit where it will die while dany taking care of him..thus we have scene in dany in dragonpit..
I agree with you ..it will be more fitting its done by dany and drogon..
However the reason will be euron but i dont think he or anyone has even a slightest chance to gettting near a dragon let alone kill one of them
Read my above post
Exactly what I was thinking, too!
LOL this is how it goes, everyone speculates and assumes based on nothing.
Sophie could be in Belfast for costume fittings, rehearsal, readings, etc, there are tons of work that actors have to do on set before filming starts.
Jorah will become LC 1000 th LC along with surviving unsulllied becoming memebers of NW ..this may happen if dany is dead or alive at the end of the series…of dead they will make their own mind or if she is alive she will station them there..
Jorah doesnt want bear island and dany want him at her side ..
And what is it from any of these interviews that makes people believe that Sansa (or Arya) are dying this season?
Some of you people want Sansa to die so bad. *Rolls eyes* When she survives till the end, I’m going to lmao.
And who cares about the tattoos? They’ve been planning on getting these tattoos for a while now. They were all going to get one (a la, the “Lord of the Rings” cast), not just Maisie and Sophie. They were planning this since before they got the season 7 scripts, so it doesn’t follow they got it now because one of them are going to die. Smh. ??
There’s nothing about this interview, in either word, tone, or body language that should lead anyone to these conclusions.
I don’t think she’ll kill Robin though it is troubling that she knows he’s being poisoned but never does anything to stop it. I, for some weird and most likely unreasonable reason, find that more troubling than Arya’s killings. Anyhow, I think Sansa is destined to kill LittleFinger. That is simply a poetic end for Baelish even if it is by now very telegraph. I hope to see Sansa, even if only in the books, push Petyr down the moon door as she lays a kiss on him and whispers “For Cat.” Or perhaps the little dove flies with him which would be just depressing.
While I do believe the book version of Sansa will be executed for killing Robert Arryn, that isnt because of any dislike for her character. It is because she is poisoning him in the books. She does not know it’s a full on poison, but she knows she is giving him too much and it’s not good for him even if it does suit her and Petyr’s short term goals. In my opinion this was included and repeated for a reason. In other words because he will die and the eye witness maester will inform Roberts bannermen that she did it. It’s all set up, though subtly enough to be overlooked with the red herring of her supposed engagement to Harry.
Taking the facts of the story and putting them together to come to a conclusion is not showing dislike toward a character. It seems with Sansa fans you are expected to either ignore her story and characterization and project unrealist hopes into her or be labeled a Sansa hater. That’s a shame tbh.
Now as far as the show goes, I don’t know if the tattoos mean anything. But regardless, I do think the writers will kill her off to keep with the overall story. They got to include glorifying , out of character fanfic of her these last couple seasons because she’s a favorite of theirs. But sadly they are already reconnecting her with Petyr and moving her down an unfortunate path that will in all likelihood end in her death, as well as Petyr’s. It will be worse than in the books because Sansa is no longer under Petyr’s thumb and thus will be making the choice to align herself with a villian against her family instead of being forced to.
Daenerys can give the whole north to Jorah if she wants , but she already stated she needs Jorah beside her
I think that the best resolution for both Sansa and Arya would be to reconnect with each other. Both have done things beyond the pale for ‘normal’ people, so they can understand where the other one is coming from. It’s like Maisie said that if Arya now reconnected with Jon, she thinks he probably would not get her anymore – he would keep seeing her as a child and a younger sister, instead of what she has chosen to become. And I agree with that. But I don’t think Sansa would make the same mistake.
So, my solution for the girls’ arcs is for each to have a dramatic conclusion this year (Sansa discards Littlefinger, Arya takes part in the downfall of Cersei), and then, next year, for them as siblings to have a reconnecting side arc while Jon and Dany do the Ragnarok thing.
George has said that Sansa, Arya, Jon, Tyrion and Bran are the core 5. During the original intended five year gap you were supposed to stumble across Bran having become bad-ass warg, Arya being bad-ass assassin, Jon having become bad-ass leader, and Sansa having become bad-ass machiavellian politican. And Tyrion being well… a bad-ass alcoholic still 5 years after killing his father hence why it was dropped lol. Anyway point is, Sansa is important, just in a different way than Arya
These quotes are pretty indicative if you ask me:
“It’s going to be heartbreaking and exciting” for fans…. “everyone is staying a lot longer because everyone is like, ‘we’re not gonna get this again’ and it’s really sad!”…..Sophie admits, “Yes, I cried.” Not to mention the numerous hints Maisie has given recently.
It has nothing to do with tattoos or hating Sansa /Arya (who I both love as characters), but we are in the penultimate season now of a show where major characters die. And as the show hurtles towards the end it’s obvious that we’re going to lose several of our most loved characters this season.
Same here. More than the tattoos, it was Sophie’s statements which made me wonder. Her saying that things are coming to an end, and the cast trying to spend more time with each other (including weekends) seems a bit odd considering they will be back for shooting next year. That’s why I feel somebody in the core cast will die next season. I would be happy to be wrong though.
Emilia and Kit not sure what they are doing, but they seem to be having a good time 🙂 .
I think the way the show tried so hard to present Jon and Sansa as new gen Ned and Cat, those two are meant to kick off the next stage of Stark rule after the war.
There would be plenty of heartbreak if a few of these characters fall: Brienne, Davos, Tormund, Edd, Yara, Theon, the Hound, Bronn, Varys, Gilly, Littlefinger. There’s no real need to kill off the big beasts until season 8.
It’s very concerning watching Arya slowly transitioning into a cold blooded killer. D and D mentioned this unsettling aspect as well. I think she might be faced with a choice, kind of like the Hound: continue with revenge or take a more positive path. When I make a prediction, I try to stick with what we know and where we might be heading as a result. I try to stay away from wishful thinking. So I look at what we know: Sansa is safe in Winterfell and she appreciates it more than we even see on screen. She endured hell over the years so I don’t think she is leaving. Is there some jealousy of Jon, yes I think there is. Will Petyr attempt to influence that divide, I think so. Is it crucial that Jon and Sansa stick together so they can move forward, absolutely. The writers said that relationship was crucial moving forward. Where this leads, well it is too ambiguous for me to start saying “this will definitely happen.” With the Jon, Sansa storyline it is kind of difficult to predict due to the ambiguity. My concern with Arya is seeing how she is now, not 3 years ago, I worry she has crossed a line and we must remember for years she has been chanting her revenge list. I do worry that if she doesn’t return to the pack she can die. I understand in the original script Arya lives until the end, but I am not sure if that is the case now. I know GRRM’s wife loves her and she doesn’t want her to die. Arya’s safest bet, in my opinion, is to return home.
ghost of winterfell,
Lol. It actually looks like he has her finger in his hand. Probably looking at her pinky tattoo.
ghost of winterfell,
It looks like they’re dancing hahahaha
And Sophie really likes to pet Kit’s hair LOL https://twitter.com/emiliacIrkes/status/778103284393476096
Jason Momoa posted a photo congratulating Kit and the cast.
I have a slightly different outlook on this pack/lone wolf thing ( works better for the books so far).
Sansa has been alone surrounded by wolves for much of her time whereas Arya has tended to join a pack or form her own pack wherever she goes. Just a thought…
As somebody said they loved Rose and she died.And Sybell and if it was for them Jason Mamoa would still be a series regular lol.But if they gotta go they gotta go.That being said I think Sansa will survive the series not because of D&D but because that’s George’s plan.I’ve always thought so.
Anyone notice Maisie look a bit glum on the red carpet?
I agree. For her to have some sense of normalcy she needs that familial tie again. After offing Walder Frey I think she’ll continue ticking people of her list, the stakes getting higher each time, Cersei being the the main one.
Flora Linden, Pigeon,
Morning flowery and feathery ones *waving*. A society without chocolate is one without hope and fits the bittersweet ending people are expecting. If there is any justice there will be chocs ahoy for those who deserve them and none for the meanies. Actually I think the worst thing would be a huge supply of chocs and they turn out to be really horrible with your least favourite fillings, the taste of which has permeated throughout so you can’t even enjoy a lick of the outside. Mind you, that’s so cruel even Ramsay would balk at it! That’s the ending I hope Littlefinger gets, achieves what he thinks he wants and it turns out to be a poisoned chalice (which could well befall several other characters as well).
Sophie’s comments about everybody staying longer because it’s ending doesn’t make sense cause there’s supposed to be another season year after next. Although, with it only being 6 episodes, one cannot really call it a season at all, I’m not even sure what they will feature happening if much of main cast (plus I’m sure other side characters) gets killed off in S7.
OT: somebody danced Game of Thrones theme on dancing with the stars… the guy dressed up as drogo looks just like him hahaha
Taking the facts of the story and putting them together to come to a conclusion is not showing dislike toward a character. It seems with Sansa fans you are expected to either ignore her story and characterization and project unrealist hopes into her or be labeled a Sansa hater…
That needed to be repeated lol. Thank you!
When Littlefinger fully realises that Sansa will no longer be his puppet, he kidnaps her and takes her to Cersei, who tortures and kills her. Maybe?
I see some comments on how Sansa will stick to LF… Umm no, shes going to fall into his trap but she will snap out of it eventually. There is no way she will fully betray her family.
I saw another article today with Sophie talking about GOT ending and how she doesn’t know what she will do with her life after its done! Maybe Sansa dies this season? Maybe not, maybe the interviewers just keep asking her how she feels about the show ending… and re: season 7 scripts, well, I don’t know. its too early to speculate, and well I don’t read spoilers so I guess im gonna have to wait like 11 months ??
It makes sense if it’s the end for some of those characters, that was my point.
I sincerely hope that Sansa will not fully betray her family. If she is destined to die, I hope she dies FOR her family, possibly taking LF with her.
I’m also trying to avoid spoilers this year and so far, it has been a success.
The fates of the Stark children are all tied to their dire wolves in some way. Sansa lost her identity as a Stark since season 1. I feel her S7 fate will be tragedy or another marriage. Arya may follow the fate of Nymeria and never reunite with the rest of the Starks. I was also thinking that SHE may play the Nissa Nissa role in the prophecy. Season 1 had some foreshadowing with Jon telling Arya all the best swords have names and stick ’em with pointy end. In the books, they are the closest of the children. All the other Starks have gone through something that has been symbolized or tied together with their dire wolves.
i agree with you… I hope so too
Neither Sansa nor Littlefinger has any claim on the Vale, that is completely true. But considering D&D simplified the Houses’ family trees for the show, it may be that, after Sweetrobin, nobody has a legitimate claim.
If the last Arryn designates a successor, his lieges will probably have to accept it… My guess is that they would find it easier to stomach Sansa as heiress (she is highborn, the daughter of a Stark who was raised at the Eyrie and the niece of the previous Lady of the Vale) than Littlefinger.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
You are right; Littlefinger may not have any hard evidence. However, he can build a fairly convincing case based on deductions, thereby creating an atmosphere of suspicion. Sometimes, a simple whisper can be very efficient…
That, he is ! There is this peculiar grace to his clumsiness I find endlessly endearing ^^
A Dornish Tyrell,
I believe you are absolutely right. Bran’s reunion with his siblings will be a tearjerker, for sure.
Arya… I do not know; I cannot shake the feeling that she is going to head towards King’s Landing to get the last name(s) on her list. That being said, it is entirely possible for one or both of the eldest Starks to travel south (to meet Daenerys ?) and encounter their younger sister outside of the North.
No matter what, there will be some tears of joy, amidst the ocean of misery 😉
The main problem I see with this theory is that sweetsleep is not a poison, it is a drug with acknowledged therapeutic uses… Everyone knows Sweetrobin is prescribed sweetsleep to ease his fits. It is not a secret : Maester Colemon validated it as part of the boy’s treatment.
Does sweetsleep have an increasing and cumulative level of toxicity which can lead to death ? Absolutely.
Does everybody know that ? Yes. All drugs are poisons, eventually. To be honest, all substances, including the most essential, are technically poisonous if consumed in appropriate quantities (water intoxication, though rare, is potentially lethal).
It is not exactly the same thing as giving sweetsleep on the downlow to a perfectly healthy child who does not need it. In Sweetrobin’s case, it is damned if you do, damned if you don’t : give him the sweetsleep and he may be poisoned, don’t give him the drug and one of his seizures may kill him just as well (his symptoms seem to point towards epilepsy, which can be fatal if left untreated). What else is there to do ? Continuous leeching ? That could weaken and kill him too, eventually.
I am all for objectively putting the facts of the story together to reach a conclusion, no matter how unpleasant it may be. Sugarcoating is unnecessary. But here, I have the feelings that the facts do not quite add up…
Bran’s direwolf was ripped apart by the living dead. What does that mean for Bran?
It isn’t obvious but are Maisie and Sophie telling us that that one of them won’t make it to season 8? They have another season to shoot after this season. Yet they are treating it like it is the last two weeks of college senior year. Why stay late, why not going home, why feeling the end now? Everything they are doing now they will be doing again next year, wouldn’t that be the end? Mmh maybe looking into it too deep but I am guessing Sansa or Maisie will not make this year. Meaning they hang out longer now because in 7 months they won’t get to hang out near as much.
ghost of winterfell,
Well, the guess is she hasn’t started filming because her hair is not red. The assumption is she will not wear a wig because she hasn’t once in the show. So we are assuming she has not started filming cause her hair is still blonde. Also, they do table reads and costume fitting first week or so.
There was a pretty big discussion about this last week. The talk was whether she might not want to color her hair if it was causing damage, in which case she could wear a wig. Besides, Kristofer Hivju had posted a pic on Instagram taken in his make-up van. Which means he must have started filming, probably with Kit since he was there in Belfast as well. So it was quite possible for Sophie to have been filming as well.
It seems to have been cleared up now.
There is no doubt in my mind Arya is an “endgame” character. Nevertheless, it can be tricky to define what “endgame” is. It is a plastic notion, depending on each character’s scope.
What is Arya’s endgame ? Is it the Battle for the Dawn ? Is it the recontruction of Westeros after the war against the (un)dead ? Is it the rebirth of House Stark ?
Quite frankly, I do not think any of the skills Arya acquired with the Faceless Men would translate well on a battlefield, be it against a regular army or the White Walkers. Physics would not be on her side in such a setting I am afraid, regardless of the many tropes pertaining to the topic 😉
She was trained for assassination, relying heavily on subterfuge, sneak attacks, poisons and armour-less combat. These techniques are remarkable when targetting an unsuspecting human but somewhat pointless against a White Walker, I would imagine. So let’s say the Battle for the Dawn is out as an “endgame” for Arya.
Post-Battle reconstruction ? Why not ? I do not quite see in what capacity but this is a definite maybe.
My guess would however be the rebirth of House Stark. That, to me, is Arya’s ultimate purpose. And, contrarily to her book counterpart, Show Arya has already got started !
The Riverlands had been a Lannister stronghold since the Red Wedding and Blackfish’s death had seemingly buried any hope for a Tully / Stark resurgence. But now, with House Frey in shambles, the whole region is up for grabs. The North, the Vale and the Riverlands could unite again, like they did during Robert’s Rebellion. Killing Walder and his heirs apparent, ultimately, went beyond the savage retribution Arya intended; it was a coup that reshaped the political map of Westeros !
Were she to take her rampage down to King’s Landing and wreak some havoc there, she could continue to have a tremendous impact on House Stark’s prospects, without even crossing the Neck. The ripple effect is strong with this one ! ^^
I’m not a book reader, but could you clarify what you think Sansa being executed for killing Robert Arryn would achieve narratively? The person you were discussing this with mentioned that you appear to consider Sansa disposable. That would certainly appear to be the case if her death would serve no purpose. I’m just interested, could you explain what the point would be?
Could you also explain what the “glorifying, out of character fan fic” in the last couple of seasons consisted of on the show?
Was it when she was being duped into marrying a psychopath?
When she was subsequently being abused by him?
When she relied upon an abused eunuch with PTSD to save her life and help her escape Winterfell?
When she got sucked in once again by the man who’d been grooming her for years and lied to her brother, risking his life and her relationship with him in the process?
You see, this all seems pretty consistent with the naive, misguided, gullible and often spoiled and selfish girl we’ve seen portrayed since season 1.
Sure, she’s had a few moments of apparent growth and a few moments of gutsiness in the last couple of seasons. But those too are consistent with her character in previous seasons.
E.g. the occasions where she spoke back to Joffrey or manipulated him; where she comforted the women during the Battle of the Blackwater; where she overcame her fear of the Hound and got used to looking at killers; where she reflected on how naive and stupid she was and gave up on prayer; or when she lied to the Lords of the Vale about Lysa’s death (does that happen in the books?); etc.
I think her character has been pretty consistent. If anything, many viewers are frustrated by her apparent lack of growth, what with her behaviour last season regarding Littlefinger and the Vale and with all the post-season speculation of how she may turn against Jon.
I think to characterize her plots and characterization over the last couple of seasons as “glorifying, out of character fan fic” doesn’t really reflect how she’s been portrayed on the show and perhaps demonstrates a certain level of bias against her character, probably as a result of conflating the show with the books somewhat.
ghost of winterfell,
I agree with you. For the first time ever, I’m worried about Arya and Sansa. I don’t think both of them will die, but this is GoT, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. :/ I could see Arya dying before Sansa, though. Arya is still pretty much on her own, and until she runs into the Hound or maybe even her uncle Edmure, she really has no one that would willingly fight with her or perhaps even protect her if she needed it. She has so many enemies now with killing Walder Frey and screwing over the Faceless Men. No doubt some guys will probably try to avenge Walder OR a faceless man follows her back to Westeros to try and kill her. I don’t think it would be Jaqen himself, though. He’s at peace with the path she has chosen for herself. Who knows. I could be completely and utterly wrong. xD
Sansa’s fate is really cloudy and ambiguous to me. I have a hard time she’d die over Arya simply because, well, she’s with Jon. I think being on Jon’s side if the safest place anyone can be at the moment. Granted, Littlefinger will try and mind fuck her as best as he can. I sincerely hope he doesn’t succeed and whisk her away or make her turn her back on her own family. Ultimately, I don’t think she would. I think she’s going to play along with Littlefinger’s game for a little bit, then try and gain the upper hand.
It’s just really hard to say WHO would kill her. Jon is obviously out. Although I’m sure he’ll be conflicted and even pissed off at her at some point during season 7, he would never do anything to hurt her. Period. Littlefinger however, is a different story. I think he would never intentionally try to hurt her, but if it came down to it and it was himself and Sansa, I think he’d do whatever he could to save his own skin; even if that meant killing her. So, I think being murdered by LF is a possibly outcome. But, other than that, who really intentionally wants to KILL her? The only person that wanted to kill her was Ramsay, and he’s gone, so, I don’t know. I guess Cersei would be another one. Maybe before Dany arrives in King’s Landing, Cersei takes the information Littlefinger gave her in Season 5 and makes the Mountain and an army go to attack Winterfell and take Sansa back? I don’t know. I feel like I’m just taking wild guesses at this point. xD
Bottom line is, I think we will have at least a couple REALLY big deaths in Season 7, and I’m starting to think the Stark girls might be one of them.
This is what I am predicting. With the coming of Winter that brings snow in the north and rain in the south. Dany’s armada will go through a storm and people will get separated. Euron will then attacked what it appears to be Sand Snake ships and Iron Island ships but Dany and her ships aren’t near by because again the storm split them up. This would follow Aegon’s storyline in the books where his army got split up at first during their Westeros landings. Euron will strike during that time, successfully beating his opponent including killing the Sand Snake and successfully capturing Yara. No way theon gets captured again. That is how the battle at sea partakes.
It would help make any battle with Dany and Kings Landing better because she is missing some of her army currently. No way euron successfully beats Dany’s armada with dragons while capturing one of the Greyjoys. Something had to happen to get them all split up.
What would be heartbreaking for me is Arya dying within sight of Winterfell/Jon.
I’ve never thought she’d have a typical happy ending. I just imagined her going off alone with Nymeria at the end.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I love this.
Yes that’s what I think as well. I’m curious to see where Dany will land. If she lands in the North, then Jon and co would probably get involved in the battle (which means more fighting scenes for Jon). If she lands somewhere else in the South, I’m curious if Sam’s family will play a role (they could either join her or Cersei).
I didn’t find her to be “glum.” After her Emmy nomination, she reined in her wacky giddiness while in public. I expect a return to the irrepressible Maisie now that this is behind her.
summer is dead and winter has come
I don’t think she will go North at all. It makes sense to land in the South if not at Kings Landing mainly because she has the most friends there. Safest landing is probably south shore of the stormlands.
Not many people talking about Sam’s dad. They got a great actor to play that role. really only going to be 1 scene. In the books Sam’s dad is on the verge of being in control of Kings Landing based on circumstance. I am hopeful that Sam’s dad will return to the show in Cersei’s favor. Mainly because he is in the strongest position to be Lord of the Reach. I think Jon has to play the game in the north for a season. The politics are just getting started up there.
Sue, any James Faulkner sightings for Game of Thrones. I am actually going to be disappointed if they only have him in that one scene.
Sure, they could easily kill Sansa off. In fact, I’ve been dreading it ever since they started hinting at the sibling rivalry between her and Jon. You just don’t oppose Mary Sue Snow and get away unpunished.
GoT is becoming increasingly black and white, and there doesn’t seem to be much room left for interesting, complex characters. They’ve already disposed of Margaery, Sansa may follow, with Jamie next in line.
The thing is, this isn’t just about favouritism; there’s a pattern to it that will likely leave this story with nothing but the most obvious, predictable and pandering set of characters for the final conflict. A convenient assortment of good guys vs bad guys.
That really makes a ton of sense. I’ve been wondering about the dragonpit and why that would be necessary since Daenerys learnt that dragons being chained up is a bad thing in Meereen. But to care for an injured dragon, a pit seems the right place, and then if it dies….. as a result of injuries she herself had to inflict to take down Euron – oooh, the angst would be through the roof! 🙂
As much as I hate to rain on everyone’s parade, I honestly believe we will be crying over some of our favorite characters this season (even flying ones maybe). If we think we aren’t going to lose any of them we haven’t been paying attention….”bittersweet” to quote George. I’m pretty sure man will prevail, obviously, but at what cost? I think this season we are going to start to lose characters we don’t want to lose. Just saying…be prepared.
Sort like her attempt to murder Joffrey in book/season one, but without a Hound do stop her?
Might be, but personally I’d rather have her doing some despicable thing to protect Winterfell and her family and have to live with it the rest of her life (I think she might murder Sweetrobin on purpose in the books to speed up the HtH thing, when she will learn about Arya being a prisoner in Wintefell and Jon murdered at the Wall).
She will be the end of Littlefinger though, and I bet this will be the right season to do it. His death and the Lannister twins’ are the most likely ones, I think.
As for the “emotional” thing Emilia talked of, the most emotional moment for her character last season was probably the Jorah one, and it was a moment of hope and reconciliation and love, so I think it’s nothing to do with death.
Maybe it will be about a Jon/Dany reunion. She will learn the truth and she will realize she is not the last Targaryen in the World and she has family, which is pretty much what she ever crave her whole life: home and family.
You should be using spoiler codes.
I would also like to see more of Randyll Tarly.
I think if there was more time left on the show there could be some potential for him to betray the Tyrells, claim the Reach and oppose Daenerys.
But I wonder if they would dismantle Daenerys’ allegiances so soon after forming them with so little time left.
Randyll Tarly did fight on the side of the Targaryens during the rebellion, so he may consider Daenerys the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.
But he wasn’t exactly complimentary about the Wildling “savages”, so I’m not sure if he’d be too happy to see a horde of Dothraki turning up on his doorstep either.
I think if we see him again he could be a casualty of whatever havoc Cersei wreaks on her enemies before Daenerys can reach Westerosi shores.
I could picture Cersei sending the Mountain to set the Reach ablaze and Randyll Tarly getting cut down in battle.
If Randyll Tarly survives Daenerys’ conquest you would expect to see an experienced military man like him on her war council and in the battles against the White Walkers when she eventually heads north.
I think this is unlikely because I don’t believe he suits her style, probably wouldn’t respect the rest of her commanders/advisors and because I believe Sam will end up by her side eventually and perhaps even end up giving her Heartsbane.
So I think Randyll Tarly’s days are numbered.
First, Jorah wouldn’t want the whole North, he’s a weak, love sick puppy whose life has no meaning if he aint’ doing something for a pretty face. Second, Daenerys is not as unstoppable as some seem to think. You say dragons, I say wargs and the three-eyed raven. You say Unsullied and Dothraki, I say winter. Daeny ain’t rolling over the North so easily.
Getting split up by a storm is a possible way they could go. I think it’s also possible that Daenerys chooses to split as I wrote a couple of weeks ago. That was an idea that they land in Westeros and Dany sends ships and troops with Yara and Theon to take back the Iron Islands and be a force on the west coast. That would lead to the naval battle and capture of the Greyjoy (thinking Yara).
ghost of winterfell,
Unless Jon actually has scenes which don’t include Sansa. Hopefully there are many of those next year, they were sorely missed after s06e04.
This is how Wikipedia defines Mary Sue.
A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment.
I don’t think Jon is idealized or perfect. He has been shown to have made plenty of mistakes, (going back to S2) one of which got him killed, another one of which nearly got him killed again. He has quite a few shortcomings too.
When has he ever saved the day with unrealistic abilities? Sure he saved the Wildlings, but he died for it as well. In fact, at every turn he has only faced obstacles. At Winterfell, he had to be saved by the Vale army.
Just because he strives to stay on the right side no matter what and has not become the 1000th person on this show to do despicable things to get what he wants, does not make him a Mary Sue. He is a human who makes mistakes and pays for it too.
You may not find such characters interesting, but again does not make him a Mary Sue.
Dany would be a damn fool to try to invade the North. It’s bigger than all the other kingdoms combined and it’s winter time. It’d be like Napoleon or Hitler trying to invade Russia. Even worse given that Dothraki and Unsullied are completely unprepared and unfit for the winter. They have no experience in surviving in such climate, they have no sufficient equipment and attire for it. Logically, they and their horses would be dying like flies in the North. Nature would obliterate them.
We don’t know how much has changed from his original outline but the five characters initially created to make it through the story alive were Daenerys, Tyrion, Jon, Bran and Arya. I’ve never seen anything listing Sansa specifically as a “core 5” character. The abandoned five year gap was to allow the young characters to age/mature to fit believably with actions they’d take. I’d like to see those statements if they’re out there. Nothing I can find to read mentions that specifically – and Daenerys’ doings also sound rather “core.”
This just came to me out of left, left, field*: what if the Night King sees Sansa, and decides she will be his perfect queen? A beautiful Stark by his side. He somehow takes her, does his thing with is fingernail, and then the humans have to fight and kill them both.
*having just woken up from three hours of sleep, and five hours in the last two days. I might still be dreaming right now.
Maisie: “It’s so exciting. But, I mean, it’s exciting because I feel like I’m kind of detached from it. From the audience’s perspective, it’s gonna be heartbreaking and, exciting, hopefully—I dunno. They might just find it heartbreaking. I feel I have quite an objective opinion on it, and I can sort of stand back and be like, ‘Yeah, this is great storytelling.’
Again. I reiterate… Arya is toast IMHO. 🙁
“Heartbreaking” doesn’t necessarily mean a character’s going to die, they could simply be maimed as Jaime or Theon was.
GoT – the series when you are relieved a character merely has a limb or a few extremities removed through violence 😉
Nah, Tyrion’s perspective in CoK and SoS was about 50% fucking Shae, 40% his internal monolog about how he is smarter than everyone else / everyone hates him for no reason (wahhh), and about 10% politics/plot. Much more interesting information came from Sansa’s chapters IMO.
And which information exactly? Most of her ACOK chapters were focused on her relationship with ser Dontos and her ASOS chapters were focused on Tyrells trying to wed her and her marriage to Tyrion. She even disappears for 400 pages in ASOS while Tyrion does not.
You’re right, the big five are indeed Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, and Bran. This is the second time I’ve seen someone mistakenly claim that Sansa was on that list. Unfortunately, citing the original outline really doesn’t work out in her favor. That proposal identifies her as the shifty Stark and has her betraying her family and then bitterly ruing her decision. Not the best reach. She’s not actually foreshadowed to survive either – Tyrion’s correct quote was “Lady Stark, you may survive us yet,” which only foreshadows her surviving her captivity with the Lannisters. Clip for reference. The show gave her a screen time bump and a couple of wins, but they basically did the same thing for Robb in Season 2 before offing him the following year. I’ll be surprised if she makes it out of Season 7 alive, but I don’t necessarily think she’ll go full-tilt villain either. The reading I get from these interviews is that we’re looking at a bittersweet death.
As far as story changes go, as recently as 2013, GRRM stated that the major components of the story arcs of primary characters had been mapped out since his original outline. Obviously some of those features were scrapped as a result of ditching the five-year gap and creating new characters, but if his statements three years ago are anything to go by, the major deaths were planned from day one and are proceeding according to schedule. Here’s the relevant quote from a 2013 io9 Interview:
He’s specifically responding to a question about his original outline, and goes on to add that he’s taken more liberties with some of the secondary and tertiary characters. So as of 2013, I’m not seeing any indication that he’s changed his mind on any of the big five’s survival prospects. Seeing as how none of the book-to-show changes in deaths thus far have involved principal characters, I don’t see any indication that D&D have any plans to throw a curve ball either.
They already have Lady Mormont. I don’t see Lyanna giving that up without s fight! A reconciliation between Lyanna, Jorah and the Starks is highly possible though ☺
Yay! Now it’s a matter of which one of those five gets the Iron Throne (or what’s left of it) by the end.. judging by Maggy the frog’s prophecy, my money’s on Dragon Queen.
We probably should be mindful of separating the writers’ intentions from the viewers’ / fans’ perceptions.
In my highly questionable opinion, the writers do not view any character as a “Mary Sue” or as perfect. From whatever little I have seen and heard of them, they appear quite keen on highlighting the respective flaws and failures of the story’s protagonists. They inherited that from the world’s creator, George RR Martin, who is less than taken by the whole “good guy can do no wrong” spiel. Even Ned, Westeros’s last good man standing, can be justifiably criticised over a whole range of topics…
This ambiguity translates pretty well into the show : there are some misses of course (D&D did not dare have Shae die in the exact same circumstances as portrayed in the book) but overall the chiaroscuro inherent to all the protagonists is fairly well represented, Ramsay’s death and Walder’s execution being prime, recent examples.
Conversely, the fans’ perception can at times differ from what the writers intended. On occasion, it may even be the latter’s fault (poor writing does exist ^^). Regardless, each character has a small (but vocal) group of fans who cannot see anything wrong in any course of action undertaken by their favourite, thereby turning said favourite into a retrospective Mary Sue. That is not the writers’ perspective; it is the viewers’.
In Jon’s case, he has been shown to make mistakes and to fail numerous times. He has been shown to be just plain wrong and misguided as well. For Pete’s sake, we even saw him go full bat-guano insane on an already defeated Ramsay Bolton ! No hint of a Mary Sue here. Do some fans see him as so utterly self-sufficient one might even wonder why there are other characters with him ? Sure. But that is a tiny, tiny minority ! Most enjoy his flaws as well as his qualities.
In regards to his relationship with his sister, all D&D said was that there could be a conflict between him and Sansa. They did not really mention what it could be about or entail; they did not divulge whether there would be an actual betrayal of any sort; they did not even refer to either of them being right or wrong. They just said “hint of conflict”.
It was us, the fans, who all of sudden got into a turf war over “who’s going to be the bad guy in this situation ????” for, as we all know, there could never be any understandable conflict of interests between two fairly decent (but equally flawed) human beings. That has never, never happened ! One of them has to be a villain ! 😉
Maybe Jon kills Arya by accident. Doesn’t know it’s her or something at the time because of her face. That’d be heartbreaking. Also if this actually happens, I’d bet good money this is the Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa moment (in the books). I don’t think they will be doing this flaming sword sacrifice moment in the show. And to be honest I’m not even convinced it will be in the books either. But if it is, it will be this moment. I mean everything heartbreaking seems to happen to Jon Snow why not add another. And Thorne did warn him in his final words that he’ll never be able to rest, never have peace.
If a dragon dies, will it become a spectral dragon?!
Actually, that is exactly what I’d call a Mary-Sue-ish situation, same as Arya’s revenge spree. The characters’ “flaws” make the audience cheer for them even more and hence are not really flaws, at least not yet.
If they “make it to the end”, that doesn’t mean they will survive the series. I still think Daenerys will not survive because of the vision in House of the Undying. She may reach the Throne, but it will be without value.
ghost of winterfell,
Ahem, I believe the proper definition of Mary Sue is “a character I personally dislike”.
Can you please provide a source????
Please God, let’s not have another horrendously over-used phrase on here (Mary Sue). We don’t need another Chekov’s Gus/Deus ex machina. thanks..
I am afraid I cannot agree on this point.
The scene of Jon punching Ramsay repeatedly in the face when Bolton could not even move anymore was not, I believe, shot in a celebratory fashion at all. It was dark and ugly : Jon was covered with blood, sweat and mud, highlighting the animalistic nature of the battle; he was sitting on his “prey” for maximum comfort (!) and he punched. Relentlessly. It went on for what can only be called an uncomfortable amount of time. Again and again and again. Until he stopped (eventually) and walked away, seemingly dazed and confused. There was nothing heroic about it.
The same can be said about Arya’s scene at the Twins : the contrast between the sheer horror, disgust and terror on Walder’s face and the Stark’s borderline orgasmic satisfaction was meant, I think, to be deeply disturbing. So were the visual of the Frey pie (a finger, complete with nail) and Arya’s chillingly flippant line (“They weren’t easy to carve”).
The writers and director did everything in their power, both narratively and visually, to amp up the discomfort, to emphasise the morally problematic aspects of those scenes. However, as you rightly point out, some viewers did not perceive them that way. I believe Miguel Sapochnik mentioned his own astonishment at some reaction videos on youtube in which viewers laughed at Tommen’s suicide or clapped at the explosion of the Sept…
So while many viewers might have cheered Jon on while he was trying to fracture his way into Ramsay’s skull or celebrated when Arya fed a man his two sons before slicing his throat, it is more a testament to our own willingness to forgive virtually anything to characters we have grown to like and empathise with (while still condemning similar actions when performed by characters we don’t care about) than it is to the showrunners’ own bloodlust and / or alleged Mary-Sue-istic tendencies ^^
As it turns out, we, viewers, might be more bloodthirsty and occasionally self-righteous than the showrunners. 😉
Please check the map at 1.30 of the In Production teaser.
The first important thing is that it shows the Lannister lion (Cersey’s forces) in Dorne. Out of that comes the following: Euron and Cersey’s forces will attack and take Dorne before Dany arrives (which makes sense, because the Sand Snakes are just bastard girls who want to play at war and they won’t expect a naval attack – at least, not from the west).
Secondly, they show three fleets on that map: one by the shore of the Cape Wrath, another closer to the Shipbreaker Bay, and the third further north in the Narrow Sea. My guess is that the first is Euron waiting for Dany in disguise (the Stormlands are full of Lannister forces); the second one is Dany; however it might be visa versa and that would imply that Euron will attack Dany, while her army is in the landing process. The third fleet should be the Royal one IMO.
Anyway, this is how I expect things to happen. Euron will take Dorne and capture some of the Sand Snakes (Ellaria and Tyenne is my guess); they will be kept hostages on Silence. Because of that, Dany won’t be able to burn Euron’s flag ship – she will send Yara and Theon to board hoping to save her allies. But that will be a trap: Euron will somehow beat his niece and nephew taking one of the captive, he will also kill/sacrifice Tyenne to provoke a storm. Dany will find it hard/impossible to fly Drogon in a strong wind; she might even fall down from his back. Afterwards, dragons (at least two of them) will get lost, the fleet will be scattered, some of the Dothraki may panic etc. Of cause, Dany will escape and quite possibly she will discover that her losses were not that bad, when the mist clears.
However, her further actions is the major question. I want her to land in the North, meet Jon, understand that her forces are needed for the fight with the WW, etc. And that would be a major plot development, but…
Anyway, what do you guys think about that map? Any alternative interpretations?
Yes, I have an alternate interpretation. The video is showing a props guy painting moveable wooden pogs that are sitting on a map months before filming actually begins and most likely before any of the cast had scripts. I’m going to say it actually shows us very little of what actually takes place. 🙂
Now you’ve got me thinking about the rich variety of regional variants of chocolates that might evolve in post-Contact Westeros. In the Fingers or Crackclaw Point, for instance, chocolate-covered lamprey might be all the rage. The Crannogmen would of course favor Crunchy Frog.
I really don’t think the placements of the markers mean anything. It’s a production teaser, they’re showing them still making the items. Why would they already be placed where they’re going to be at. And why would they show spoilers like that. We all know how careful they are.
I appreciate what the directors and writers try to do, (you described it well, and that’s also how I perceived it) but I feel, it does not challenge the viewers or readers when it comes to liking those characters, especially Jon and Arya, so it’s hard to view it as a real flaw.
The guy who goes beserk on the asshole that wronged him and goes totally overboard is a common enough trope. And normally, people stand around the fighters to mirror the horror the audience is supposed to feel about it. Here they are not. Which is ok, because as you said, the directing tells us that it is not a heroic moment.
My point is, it doesn’t really make us question the character in any way nor is it important for the character’s development, or do we think this rage could come back later to harm him? I agree, that it’s also the viewers who are full of excuses for beloved characters, but it’s made also really easy to excuse, because nothing is at stake. Jon is going to wake up the next morning, and feel the aftermath of the battle, but do we think he will feel particularly remorseful about what he did to Ramsay.
The writers and director did everything in their power, both narratively and visually, to amp up the discomfort
They tried. But they wanted the killing of Walder to be a surprise, so they did not show us the messiness of the slaughter Arya must have had. Yes, there was a finger and yes, she told us that it was hard to carve them, but that is no substitute to an actual visualization. The killing scene itself remains quite clean. In contrast to that, the killing of Meryn Trant in that cruel and gory fashion was much more effective in communicating the discomfort that the producers wanted us to feel IMO. (Even then, people cheered like crazy…)
The thing is after all that time the Starks had been put down and abused, the satisfaction of getting revenge might just outweigh any other message they wanted to convey which is also due to fact that they made the RW an absolute horror and gore fest. So again, I feel, it’s quite easy to excuse Aryas “orgasmic satisfaction” or even not to take it into consideration because we viewers are equally orgasmic about Walder Frey getting his which again is due to the narrative that let us hanging for so long. Really hard to make the viewer question those felings in such a powerful moment of relief that has been awaited for seasons. I got the feeling, that they wanted to have the cake and eat it too.
Also, Arya kills people the narrative told us to hate. So, the forgiveness of the characters’ deeds is kind of justified by the narrative. It does not feel like an actual struggle that so many other characters experienced (Theon comes to mind) because she does it for her family, for the Starks who we all (or most of us) have loved so dearly since season 1. She does not seem to be sacrifing her humanity either in order to save or revenge her family, we do know that she still has her empathy towards people that did not wrong her. So, maybe her “flaws” lead to some actual struggle or something relly bad in the future, and then everyone will go “Oh yes, that had to happen, remember when she killed Maryn fucking Trant”…or something, so the impact will be much harder. But, at the moment, I have a hard time seeing the “flaws” as real flaws, even if the production is trying to make us question certain actions.
I agree, I don’t remember Sansa having a POV chapter since Book 1. I think you switched Dany and Sansa around.
Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Jon, and Dany have POV chapters in all of the books so far
I wrote a similar reply earlier that got weeded out in moderation for some reason. I just said that the video was done months before filming and it shows a props guy painting wooden pieces on top of a map. I don’t know that anything solid can be deduced from it.
The North Remembers,
I may be hugely mistaken and if so I do apologise but I believe Arya is actually the only character with POV chapters in all the books so far.
A Feast for Crows was very much focused on Cersei and Brienne while Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon and Bran were no where to be found (they were busy getting ready for the following, yet simultaneous, A Dance with Dragons ^^)
You do make a very good point. It is true we have yet to witness what longterm consequences, if any, their questionable actions may have on the Starks (Jon, Arya, Sansa) and they have so far focused their hatred onto deserving recipients.
However, their displays of joyful and/or crazed violence clash with the very reason why the Starks were designated as our heroes in the very first place. This family was introduced to us as the Westerosi “Ingalls” : all honourable, all brave, all honest, all so wonderful (with one exception… ^^) This purity of theirs was what made them stand out in contrast with the seemingly bottomless cesspool of corruption and pettiness that surrounded them. And Ned was the main advocate of this family mythos.
Yet, as of now, we have seen three of the four remaining Stark children behaving in ways their father / uncle would probably have disapproved of.
The Starks have officially joined the fray, symbolically at the very least. They no longer waft in the rarefied air of integrity and justice that would have meant granting their enemies a “clean death” (solemn beheading). They gave up on that, at least once each. And they did it because “it felt good” : good to punch Ramsay 20 odd times in the face, good to watch him be devoured by his hounds, good to massacre Walder and his sons.
So while these actions may not have immediate or direct consequences on the characters themselves, they could engage us, the viewers, into questioning how truly “special” the Starks are… Are they fundamentally very unique snowflakes or do we like to think of them as such because they are our protagonists ? 😉
On a side note and in my perpetually disputable opinion, Ned’s “all honour, all the time” take on his family’s identity was something he had concocted, possibly as a result of his long stay at the Arryns’ Eyrie (House Arryn’s words being “as high as honour”). I do not think the Starks have, historically speaking, been all that focused on the H-word. After all, “Winter is Coming” is a pragmatic motto, not an inspirational one. Furthermore, Rickard’s advice to his young son before he left was “Remember that you are a Stark. Comport yourself with dignity at the Vale and try to stay out of fights. But if you have to fight, win”. No injonction to win honourably or respectfully or decently. Just a very down-to-earth imperative : “win !”
It was oddly reminiscent of Cersei “you either win or you die”, I thought. Who knows ? Maybe once in a blue moon, Cersei gets to be right about something 😉
Personally, I thought the producers did quite well in making both Sansa’s and Arya’s apparent joy in killing people feel unsettling and questionable.
I definitely feel like it’s a failing on the viewers’ behalf if they revelled in those deaths without questioning the possible implications for the characters.
Of course, the viewer has been encouraged to crave revenge on the Starks’ behalf and to wish to see our villains get their comeuppance. But I don’t think that the manner in which that revenge is achieved or its potential impact on our characters has ever meant to be discounted.
When I saw people marveling at Sansa’s “first kill”, as if we’re meant to want her to be a killer rather than retain her innocence and morality, it did definitely felt like people were missing the point somewhat.
And I see the same sort of thing in discussion of Arya.
As you say, the murder of Meryn Trant was quite sadistic. She subsequently cut the Waif’s face off, for goodness sake. And then she stands there glorying in watching the last breaths of an old man whose throat she’s just cut and whose sons she’s just butchered.
Her murders have been among the most horrific and sadistic deaths depicted on the show, up there with those committed at the Red Wedding and the desecration of Robb’s body. And yet people cheer her on and then wish to deny any possible tarnishing of her character or her psyche long-term. I don’t think the producers could do more other than to completely spell it out. They may have to next season.
I think you’re right to suggest that the mirror was less evident in the Jon Snow / Ramsay scene. But as far as I’m concerned that is because Jon Snow is already an established killer, and questions over the morality of him killing have been asked since the start of the show (Quorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Janos Slynt, Mance Rayder, etc).
Seeing him really lose control, perhaps for the first time on the show, after watching Rickon and Wun-Wun callously murdered before his eyes and especially towards his sister’s tormenter was a much harder sell as an examination of his character and morality.
I think his flaws are real, but I think it’s harder for them to examine them without completely undermining his character. Even so, I feel like his morality, naivety, recklessness, idealism etc. have been under the microscope throughout the seasons in various ways.
I read the original plotline from 1993 and I also read GRRM’s interview more than once regarding the 5 original characters who will make it until the end. He was discussing his original plot when he mentions the core 5 making it until the end. In all due respect, where does it say in GRRM’s interview that the original 5 characters will make it to book 8 in his current version? I have never read anywhere that GRRM said that Bran, Dany, Arya, Jon, and Tyrion will be the 5 characters who will survive books 7 and 8. For all we know, some or all don’t make it. Besides, what author will tell readers, before the books even come out, who the last survivors will be? The show writers won’t even tell us if Euron takes Yara or theon. Why would GRRM tell us who makes it until the end? Maybe I just missed the spoiler in the article, so I could be wrong? Also, I read all 5 books and I know for a fact that Sansa was a point of view character in all the books except Dance of Dragons. GRRM originally combined books 4 and 5 but it was too long so he split it into 2 books. Jon, Tyrion, and I think Dany aren’t even in book 4. There are other point of view characters that aren’t even a part of the core 5 that have multiple point of view chapters (Jaime, Theon, Cersei, even Barriston) So the bottom line is who really knows anything for sure, except people will die.
Just a point of clarification from someone who raised an epileptic child: It is very rare for a person to die directly from an epileptic seizure. Indirectly, from a fall resulting in a head injury, or from losing control of an automobile if someone has a seizure while driving a car, is another matter – but even then, uncommon. In extremely rare circumstances, a seizure can trigger a string of seizures that do not subside, causing brain damage and possible death.
Seeing someone have a tonic/clonic seizure (what used to be called ‘grand mal,’ though that term is no longer used by doctors), in which the entire body goes rigid and spasms for a couple of minutes, is very alarming to onlookers, but not in itself particularly dangerous. Typically the patient has no memory of it afterwards, and just feels a strong need to ‘sleep it off.’
The biggest hazard is the patient aspirating vomit, if they vomit, which can occasionally happen during a seizure. All you need to do, if you’re present, is to turn the person gently onto their side to prevent that happening, if they’re lying on their back. And never, ever stick anything in their mouth – that thing about ‘swallowing their tongue’ is an old wives’ tale.
This has been a public service announcement. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
I’m assuming you’re referring to what I posted even though you weren’t specific about it, but to answer your question, it’s just basic inferential reasoning. Five characters are identified in the outline as surviving until the end of the series. In a relatively recent interview, when questioned about said original outline (which had not yet leaked online), GRRM states that the overall story arcs for major characters have not changed (broad strokes, which is an important distinction to make) and that he always knew what the major deaths were going to be and when they would occur. He then goes on to discuss exceptions where things have changed, implying that the principle deaths have not. Something doesn’t have to be spelled out to be obvious (see: R+L=J). Unless GRRM changed his mind over the past three years, those five aren’t going anywhere until the climax of the final book.
That doesn’t happen in the novels and it might never happen. D&D kill off characters who are still alive in the books.
This is a series where anyone can die, especially if the character isn’t one of the main five. That’s not to say Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Jon, and Bran won’t die eventually. Some of them will die in the end too. But none of the other characters are guaranteed a place in the climax like they are. So saying that Sansa will die isn’t to say she’s disposable. She is merely like most of the other characters in that she has an expiration date. As to what it would achieve on a narrative level, the same thing that most of the other deaths have achieved: shock value. This will especially be the case in the show.
GRRM is a writer who doesn’t hesitate to dispose of POVs that have served their purpose or gotten to the end of their arc. For example, each and every prologue and epilogue character is introduced, fleshed out, and killed in the last sentences of their first and only POV chapter. Sacrificial lions like Ned, Catelyn, and Quent were done away with. As much as I enjoy Sansa and find her journey the one that’s the most relatable, I can’t ignore that she was one of those characters who was created to serve a purpose that isn’t centered on her. GRRM said she was created to cause trouble with her family and be a foil for Arya. She was made to help flesh out the characterizations and dynamics of other characters. That’s very telling when looking at her purpose in the narrative. It’s also very telling that she has no connection to the main story, which is of course the growing magic in the world and the fight against the Others/White Walkers. I hate to say this, but after AGOT, I think GRRM didn’t get rid of her because she was convenient in telling the politics subplot and is there as a window into how those work and don’t work the way Catelyn is there to tell Robb’s story and Quent and Barristan are given POVs to tell different parts of Dany’s story. After Petyr’s plots fail, there probably won’t be a place for Sansa in the narrative anymore and she will be another of GRRM’s casualties.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
Could you also explain what the “glorifying, out of character fan fic” in the last couple of seasons consisted of on the show? Was it when she was being duped into marrying a psychopath? When she was subsequently being abused by him? When she relied upon an abused eunuch with PTSD to save her life and help her escape Winterfell? When she got sucked in once again by the man who’d been grooming her for years and lied to her brother, risking his life and her relationship with him in the process?
I’m not sure how much fan fiction you read, but after six years of reading fic, I can tell you that a shockingly large amount of Sansa fic has her being raped or gives her a rape backstory. When Dan and David followed in the traditions set by their fellow Sansa stans in raping Sansa too, I was quite surprised to see the outrage about it for that reason. So yes, that is the story I’m talking about when I say Dan and David wrote “glorifying, out of character fan fic” these last few seasons. The rape and abuse were a part of it, as it all too often is in Sansa fic, and she was shown as being empowered afterward. Or at least that was the illusion D&D were going for.
Also, take note at how little her lies affected her relationship with Jon. Her lies increased the casualty numbers of Northmen fighting on their side and almost got Jon killed. Yet D&D didn’t bother to have him or the other Northerners even be annoyed, let alone enraged at her actions. That sounds like some OOC fic to me.
I agree that the show’s version of Sansa is gullible, selfish, and quite stupid, but that’s not because the writers are intending that. They’re trying to make her seem brilliant and savvy, while failing miserably.
For instance, her story in the Vale does have her lying to the Lords of the Vale in the novels, but it is a lie of Petyr’s making. He has control over her and the words that come out of her mouth are his in the novels. Dan and David tried to make her look like a player by having her come up with the lie and reveal herself to the Vale lords. That choice was horrid on several levels. First, why would the Vale lord’s believe her? It’s not like she’s providing a photo ID, SSN, or direwolf to prove her identity. Second, why tell a group of strangers who you are when you’re wanted for kingslaying any one of them can alert the crown? Third, since they did believe her and didn’t turn her in, why was she dumb enough to stay in Petyr’s custody when she could have found safety with any of them? Fourthly, why did Petyr, the brilliant game player, not prepare her before the meeting? None of it makes sense.
That’s what I mean when I say Dan and David are glorifying her with out of character fan fic. They are attempting to make her seem like an active player in the game who isn’t under Petyr’s thumb, but is a power in her own right. In doing so, they are unintentionally making her and the characters around her look like OOC idiots. That is also a common trope in Sansa fic, coincidentally. Or not so coincidentally.
I thought filming started already? So it starts Wednesday?
Interesting! To be honest I’m not very hopeful of Arya’s chances in season 8, but a role in House Stark restoration sounds plausible. Her ‘wolf pack’ mentality might save her… after all she had the chance to pursue and possibly kill Jaime but she didn’t. She’s set on going home and to reunite with her siblings. What comes after is hard to see.
Well, I tend to view her FM training in shaping her up to become a fighter/survivor that might give her a chance to survive the Long Night. Who knows she might again assassinate someone important to protect or save someone crucial for the endgame.
Just watched the full clip of Maisie interview with Access Hollywood. She says the script is heartbreaking and exciting but she also says something to the effect of her being in the show POV it’s exciting storytelling but that for viewers, it’ll probably just be heartbreaking. Guys, somebody gonna need to hold me while watching next summer, I’ma be skeered! Who will die? For some reason I think Jon will accidentally kill Arya (with someone else face) and Sansa will make a stupid mistake and get Jon killed again.
Ps Sorry if this been discussed so much already I havent had time to read whole thread.
That sounds alarming. Well looks like both Stark sisters are in danger. But unfortunately, Sansa’s chances of survival seem slimmer.
”The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” Sansa is pretty much the lone wolf:
– since the beginning, she’s the one anxious to get away from her home
– she lost her direwolf very early (which is the reason why she’s not a warg like Bran, Arya and Jon in the books)
– She’s alone in the south, without any Stark connection to hold onto (Arya has needle, Jon and Bran have their direwolves)
– she’s the least northern of the Starks. Sansa perfectly embodies the southern culture/manners/courtesies that she’s like a fish out of water in her own home. In season 6, the north don’t see her as one of them. They didn’t do anything while she’s in the hands of the Boltons. In the eyes of the northerners, Sansa is more like an outsider/adversary (Lyanna Mormont’s ‘is she a Lannister or a Bolton?’)
– her relationship with her siblings is not very close compared to the rest. In season 6 Sansa worked and acted on her own, the opposite of the Stark wolk pack mentality. She was ready to give up on Rickon before the battle begins (I know it’s pragmatic but still) and she displayed no reaction on his corpse. She was more interested in Ramsay, and her personal revenge on him.
– the talks and hints of Jon vs Sansa conflict. Season 6 set it up from Littlefinger planting seeds of doubt in Sansa leading her to lie and withhold the knight of the vale from him, to her unhappy reaction when Jon gets crowned. Not to mention that Kit, Sophie, Liam and D&D adds more fuel to it. D&D’s comments that Sansa is not a pure Stark anymore and that Littlefinger has a hold on her. Then Liam’s prophetic words about the Stark conflict ‘it’s not gonna be pretty.’
– From Grrm himself: ”Arya was one of the first characters created. Sansa came about as a total opposite b/c too many of the Stark family members were getting along and familes aren’t like that. Thus, Sansa was created; he ended by saying they have deep issues to work out.”
I’m not saying that Sansa is gonna go straight up evil. But she’s a conflicted character. She has ambition and still naive sometimes – things that can be exploited by no other than Littlefinger who still has a hold on her. The danger is, Sansa isn’t very aware of that.
P.S I’m not a Sansa hater.
In fact, nobody paints anything on the map: neither badges, nor eye-stones. If they needed something to cover the desk, they would have used an old newspaper orwhatever. At least half of that teaser shots were set specifically for fans.
Why would the producers reveal any spoilers/plot twists? Well, they need the fandom hyped, so they are giwing us something to chiew. They implied that something might go wrong with Dany and they want us to speculate and develop theories etc.
Another interview by Sophie, where repeats the same things, that things are coming to an end and people are hanging around Belfast to be around each other. To which the reporter makes the same point we did, that there’s one more season left and Sophie replies “not all of us”.
She also confirms that we will spend all of next season wondering where Sansa’s loyalties lie and whether she will come through as a true Stark.
My point is, it doesn’t really make us question the character in any way nor is it important for the character’s development, or do we think this rage could come back later to harm him? I agree, that it’s also the viewers who are full of excuses for beloved characters, but it’s made also really easy to excuse, because nothing is at stake. Jon is going to wake up the next morning, and feel the aftermath of the battle, but do we think he will feel particularly remorseful about what he did to Ramsay.
He may not feel any remorse, but he might question himself ( as we should be questioning), how far would he go if provoked, how much of a rage is he capable of feeling. And this is not the first time he has killed out of anger either. Unlike the books, on the show Jon killed Qhorin Halfhand mainly out of rage at being called a traitor and a bastard, and not because he knew that was what Qhorin wanted. It was only after he had stabbed him and he whispered “we are the watchers on the wall” that Jon realized what really happened.
Similarly with Orell, while it’s true that he was acting on self defense, you can see the look of satisfaction on his face as he runs his sword through Orell, whom he had always hated. Is it ok to feel that satisfaction at having killed somebody even if it was done in self defence?
We don’t know yet if and what the consequences of their actions will be for Jon, Arya or Sansa, (in Arya’s case at least, I believe there will be consequences) it does show that they are not immune from acting on their baser instincts like hate, rage or the need for revenge, to varying degrees.
So, maybe her “flaws” lead to some actual struggle or something relly bad in the future, and then everyone will go “Oh yes, that had to happen, remember when she killed Maryn fucking Trant”…or something, so the impact will be much harder. But, at the moment, I have a hard time seeing the “flaws” as real flaws, even if the production is trying to make us question certain actions.
Imo, a person can have flaws without it directly leading to their downfall. It is meant for us to better understand the character. That’s how I feel at least.
What is commendable in this story is that the characters all fall under a different range from “good” to “bad”, as in real life. If everybody had the same level of “flaws” as say Theon or Jaime, then the story would not be nearly as satisfactory. What matters is that even the “good guys” are written realistically and are not in fact “Mary Sue” s.
Let me ask you something. Are you even a fan of GoT? You seem pretty hostile towards the show, even calling it “fanfiction”.
Sansa had chapters in books 1, 2, 3 and 4. Tyrion, Daenerys and Jon have no chapters in book 4 (Jon makes an apperiance but in Sam’s chapter).
I also feel like Sansa is dying this season. Reclaiming Winterfel (and Stark identity) looks like the major climax and resolution of her story. Where she will go from here? In another show she would probably marry a right man (finally) and live happily ever after, but not in GoT. From what I could pic up from various interviews, foreshadowings, and In Production teaser, her future story looks like follows.
In Production teaser showed as some chamber set being built. It’s architectural design was similar to Winterfell and there was another shot of a man writing SANSA’S CHA… on some construction. Hence, in S7 Sansa is getting a chamber of her own. It’s nice, but on the other hand it implies that she will be kept of hold herself aloof from the Great Hall and all the major events which are supposed to happen there. In other words, Sansa will find no place in Jon’s small council/government. Concentrating on her own life and looking for a man to fall in love with would be the best solution for her in such circumstances; however, any romance will be undermined by memories of Ramsay (In Production Teaser: You can’t kill me, I am part of you now). So, Sansa will feel like Frodo: she will see the North saved (at least for the moment) but not for her. I don’t think Sansa was unhappy about Jon being proclaimed KITN in Ep 10 – on the contrary: I saw her very happy both about Jon and the North itself which managed to justify her expectations at the end. However, when she fails to find her place in the world she fought for, she will fall into the deepest depression ever. However, she won’t dream about sailing to some White Shores – she will protest; she will yell at Jon and criticize his decisions the same way she did in S6 Ep9 and Littlefinger will use that to create chaos etc. So, I can totally see Sansa making some crucial mistake which will threaten Jon’s position and chances of winning the War for Dawn. However, I do hope that she makes the right decision after realizing that and sacrifice herself to promote Littlefinger’s demise one way or another.
As for Arya’s endgame, we have to define the roles of the other four main characters to figure it out. As for Jon and Dany, it’s pretty clear that they will lead the mankind into the final battle. Tyrion’s role is to bringing them together and rebuilding Westeros afterwards. Bran will play the role of the CIA. So, all the four has pretty obvious roles in the War for Dawn.
Arya is different. She has always been about death, so I expect her ultimate purpose to be giving the gift of death and Jon looks to be the most likely target. After all, Alliser Thorn cursed him to fight the war forever and with that prospect of being resurrected again and again, Jon might need someone to free him from the curse of eternal life.
ghost of winterfell,
I didn’t saw Jon killing Qhorin Halfhand out of anger – I had the feeling that he understood his plan right from the beginning (though implementing it was very hard for him to say the least).
However, I do agree that Jon indulged into revenge and violence in several cases. For instance, when beheading Janos Slynt and especially when hanging the mutineers in Oathbreaker – something I feel he should not have done really.
So, yes: calling Jon a Mary Sue is a total misunderstanding of the Mary Sue concept. Following such logic, a great number or the real world politicians/leaders can be called Mary Sue as well.
Saw that interview too.I never thought one of the girls would die this early and I still don’t but I’m not 100% sure anymore.Jon’t won’t kill Arya don’t worry but he might be the one to find her dead and if that happens catch me crying for a week.And if Jon dies again it’s gonna be in season 8 ep 5 o 6 don’t worry about it.
And I see we have a new buzzword.Look up the definition of Mary Sue people.Jon is the farthest thing from it.Guy can’t ever catch a breal lol.Even Dany is not one.
Being the “least Stark” is not necessarily a bad thing. This is Game of Thrones and the Starks are not idealized. The biggest weakness of Starks is their honor. Ned, Robb and Jon got all killed because of honor and duty. Jon got nearly killed again in Battle of the Bastards. Sansa is the only member of the family, who is willing to get her hands dirty for the greater good. When it comes to dealing with LF (and I sincerely hope she will have a role in that)… well, you can’t deal with him and coming back with clean hands.
I think the biggest climax in Sansa’s storyline would be, if she manages to deal with LF, even by the cost of her own life. Her arc was about survival at first, and then about trying to play a game, and then about trying to reclaim her identity.
Ewww! Crunchy Frog may be a delicacy for some, but for me would definitely fit the nightmare scenario huge pile of yuck flavoured chocs! I’d be scoffing lemon cremes with Sansa. LF would have something slimy, Cersei and Tyrion the liqueurs and Dorne and Essos would probably go for the more unusual, exotic flavours.
In other news, scientists say that “Watching tragic drama is good for you – it’s good for our health [because] It boosts endorphins which are our body’s natural painkiller.” Next time someone asks why people like GoT so much there’s the answer – medical benefits! 😀
Guys, this might be my computer as there have been some technical problems with the site – so apologies if this isn’t the case – but there seem to be quite a few uncovered spoilers in this thread.
Haven’t seen anything from the mods, but just in case, remember to cover anything which hasn’t appeared in the show or isn’t covered specifically in the post you are commenting on. Ie things we have heard elsewhere on the site about certain characters meeting/fighting/teaming up/eating chocolates together etc. I love spoilers and eagerly devour them all but are quite a few on here who are trying their best to avoid them 🙁 (instructions at the top in the spoiler alert box if you don’t know how to).
Sensible mum message ends/…….back to the usual rubbish…..giant killer penguins for the win! 😀
IIRC, on the show, he didn’t. While they were being marched on to meet Mance by the Wildlings, Qhorin out of nowhere starts abusing and attacking Jon. Jon retaliated. He only realized what Qhorin had done when he whispered “we are the watchers on the wall” . That was how I saw it at least.
I’m seeing a lot of comments about Sansa being the lone wolf and needing to reclaim her Stark heritage and ties to her family.
Erm, didn’t we just see Sansas reunion with Jon, her desperation to reclaim their family home for all of the Stark children and (hopefully) reunite the rest of the siblings where possible once they have reclaimed power in the North? Which she succeeded in doing so BTW.
She even mentions to Jon how stupid, gullible, wrong she was in the past to mistreat him/ go to KL etc.
What else does Sansa need to do to reintegrate with the Starks or prove herself and her loyalty to her family? Am I missing something?
Yes I see your point about Stark honor can get them killed. But what I meant earlier is that Sansa’s corrupted. She distrust easily now (understandably so) to the point she distrusts her own brother, which is not a good thing especially when Littlefinger’s around and can use that in his favor. On the other hand, I disagree that Sansa’s the only member of the family who is willing to dirty her hands for the greater good. Jon proved that when he infiltrated the wildlings and his honor got compromised. Arya proved it when she’s willing to kill in the name of her family (her killing Walder Frey might be good for the Tullys and the Starks).
I hope so too that Sansa will have a role in bringing Littlefinger down for she’s the one who knows about him. But I’m really not sure if she’s really capable of doing it. She’s still naïve, and it’s Littlefinger who manipulated her without her being aware of it. She might overestimate herself, and one mistake could be fatal.
Die. Preferably by beheading or throat-cut.
Or discover chocolate.
They’re all corrupted now. As the Hound once told Sansa about men, she, Arya, Bran and Jon are now killers. They’ve all made terrible mistakes, and they and others will pay for them.
Ultimately, this is what her storyline is about, indeed.
She started out as the “traitor”, the one Stark who did not want to be a Stark : all her relatives loved the north while she longed for the south; her siblings enjoyed martial / masculine activities whereas she took pleasure in embroidery and dancing; etc. Her Stark identity was a skin she could not wait to shed and it was not free of consequences.
Over the course of her path, she did lose the Stark name : she looks like a Tully, was engaged to Joffrey (therefore about to join the Baratheons), came close to leaving for Highgarden (Tyrell-isation), then was married to Tyrion (became a Lannister), turned into Littlefinger’s niece / illegitimate daughter (named Alayne Stone) and ultimately was attached to Ramsay (taking on the Bolton name). And now, her engame, I would think, is about (re)becoming a Stark by agregating and articulating all the different identities she has accumulated over the years to the Direwolf core. After all, other families have some good points too : the Tullys’ determination is remarkable, the Lannisters’ innate political acumen can come in handy; the Baratheons’ ruthlessness has its moments; the Tyrells’ cunning is admirable; Baelish’s intellect and will are crucial and the Boltons’… Yeah, they might be the exception 😉
In a way, it is about reinventing the Stark legacy.
To a certain extent, all Stark children have to go through that process, a process reminiscent of what Ned had to do 20 years prior. By the end of Robert’s Rebellion, House Stark was a shadow of its former self : Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna were dead; only Ned and Benjen remained but the latter left to join the Night’s Watch. Ned was the sole remaining Stark and had to singlehandedly define what “being a Stark” meant. He decided it was all about honour, nobility and honour again.
This definition, no matter how remarkable, proved highly impractical and damaging in the long run.
Now, it is his children’s responsibility to invent a new way to be a Stark. Hopefully, they will come up with something both ethically satisfying and sustainably pragmatic.
If I may, I would argue that Littlefinger does very little to manipulate Sansa without her being aware of it. He really does not try to hide his manoeuvres. 🙂
After all, Littlefinger has a very healthy ego and he has been shown to relish in communicating (parts of) his brilliantly evil plans to a privileged few. Varys, Ros (RIP) and Sansa are probably the only people who know how strategically dangerous and ruthlessly ambitious he is.
You’re obviously talking about my post. I’m not gonna repeat them all again but my main points about Sansa being the lone wolf are:
– she’s the outsider in the family since the beginning
– Grrm purposely created her character to create conflict among the Starks
– Plus the hints of Stark conflict next season.
Those are huge foreshadowing that can’t be denied.
Yes, helping to take Winterfell back is her reclaiming her Stark identity. But it’s not simple as that, given some of her actions in doing it. Yes Sansa had a sweet reunion with Jon. But after one meeting with Littlefinger, he managed to plant doubts which led her lying to her ‘half brother.’ In the end she apologized to Jon, but that doesn’t dismiss everything the actors and D&D have been saying about Sansa and Littlefinger’s look during the KITN scene.
If you haven’t seen the interviews from the cast, then yes you’re really missing something. But if you know and still disagree, then there’s no need to discuss it further. 🙂
About Sansa’s feelings about Jon being proclaimed the KITN, she’s not happy. Sophie confirmed it:
There’s a bit of jealousy there. She looks at Littlefinger knowing that he would have put her as Queen in the North, and given her the credit she deserves. I don’t think she’s gunning for the Iron Throne anytime soon, but she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.
It seems Sansa wants credit and power after all, especially when she thinks it’s due. Instead of being praised for her efforts that she was expecting, her bastard half brother was credited and chosen king in front of her. Sophie said that Sansa didn’t tell Jon about Littlefinger because she wanted ‘all the info and all the power when it comes to Littlefinger.’
And David Benioff also said: “There’s definitely a little hint of conflict there. You see that come out in Episode 9 where she’s at the war council where no one asks her opinion, despite the fact that she knows Ramsay better than anyone. So I think there’s a little bit of anger about that, a little bit of jealousy. And that relationship will be crucial to watch.”
She’s happy that Winterfell is retaken by the Starks again, but she didn’t expect Jon to become the KITN. To be above her.
Looks like next season is going to be crucial for Sansa for it’ll decide her fate. If she fails and sides with Littlefinger instead, she might not survive. There’s no way she goes up against Jon Snow and win.
But if Sansa chooses her family and survives Littlefinger, she also has to survive the Long Night. She’s not a fighter or a leader… so her best chance of survival is to go South and maybe sail for Essos. However her leaving home again seems doubtful.
What you said about Arya and Jon is interesting. However I think Alliser Thorne’s last words foreshadows Jon’s fighting during the battle for the dawn, possibly rule and rebuild Westeros after. Instead of getting his rest, Jon will be stuck in the iron throne and ruling. He wouldn’t be happy, but he’ll do his duty. It’s not really a win-win scenario for him because it’s a huge burden especially after an apocalypse. But who knows in the end, the iron throne will be destroyed and the monarchy/feudalism will end, aka breaking the wheel.
PS Just because I see the possibility of Jon vs Sansa conflict doesn’t make a hater who wishes Sansa dead. There’s no need to be defensive. 🙂
Which kinda adds to my earlier point… she has almost fulfilled her purpose as far as reconnecting, reuniting and restoring the Starks to power, and once she despatches LF, I can’t see much more she can contribute to the overall story. So she, like Arya, are unlikely to make it past S7 IMO.
I love the character btw, so I really hope I’m wrong.
All of next season? I hope they don’t drag out the Sansa loyalties arc.
That’s GoT. Everyone is corrupted in some way. I could also say that Arya is corrupted because of her lust for killing, possibly even more than Sansa. While not corrupted, Bran managed to get his mentor, the children of the forrest, Summer and Hodor killed because of a single mistake. Daenerys is also corrupted because of her incredibly harsh dealing with the slavers (although thankfully, she has Tyrion by her side). Tyrion is corrupted because he killed his own father, which is considered a vile act in Westeros, no matter how evil the father was. I would say that the least corrupted is Jon but that’s why he nearly got himself killed in Battle of the Bastards.
Jack Bauer 24,
well its quite obvious that they will… theyre going to have her on LFs side for two episodes and then turn on him?? no… theres not that much happening in the north right now (unless the WWs show up)… so, the Sansa Jon LF shit is going to go on all season… whilst other things occurring
haters gonna hate
She WILL almost betray Jon next season, but she wont… she will come through as a Stark in the end
Her interviews are so cryptic, I think Sansa MAY die next season… it DEFINATELY cant be jon or else his rez would have been useless.
If there is a bit jealousy, that doesn’t mean she wasn’t happy. She smiled at him after he was declared king and then when she looked at LF, she became serious. It seems to me that she is conflicted. Like you said, she was happy for her family to suceed, but disappointed that she didn’t get the credit.
Also, the interviews are not always 100% trustworthy. I remember Toby Sebastian’s interview, how Trystane will be in trouble as a royal hostage when Cersei gets her hands on him and we both know how it turned out. I remember Maisie Williams saying how Arya will be broken and at her complete bottom in season 6 and I don’t remember a particular scene, that would indicate that.
It cannot drag because there is only 7 episodes.
Yes, they’re all corrupted and changed. But in Sansa’s case, she’s corrupted by the likes of Cersei, Littlefinger and Ramsay. It’s tragic because she’s influenced by these people, and shaped her up to become distrusting which is dangerous especially if it’ll make her turn against her own family, against Jon.
Yeah, Sansa is Littlefinger’s weakness. 🙂 After all he revealed his endgame plan to her, which contradicts his own advice in season 4. This is gonna be useful for Sansa if she decides to take him down.
Great points about Sansa and the Stark legacy reshuffling, by the way. 🙂
I guess we’ve reached the point in a part of the fandom where, no matter what she does, it would never be enough… For this part of the fandom, she will always remain exactly the same as S1/book 1 Sansa.
Just because a character may not be able to contribute much to the story beyond a certain point doesn’t mean they have to die.
Sansa isn’t going to contribute much to the war against the White Walkers. It is known. But she could still take part in scenes depicting the broader context and effects of the war, like she and Cersei did during the Battle of the Blackwater.
And in terms of how the story / Westeros concludes overall, she could still have a role to play in the reconstruction of Westeros going forward.
Unless we’re just going to end up with King Jon and/or Queen Daenerys and nobody else matters, then some of the supporting characters have to make it through to the end.
When the show comes to the end, there is always a polarizing reaction to the story. For me, Sansa changed a lot.
This is spot-on!! It could be said that this is in fact THE theme of the Stark family saga: Bran wanted to become a soldier and a knight, now he has to reinvent himself as an Old Gods-like entity (which is part of the core identity of the Starks, and the North by antonomasia), Jon will have to reinvent his Starkness once he learns about his true identity. The same for Arya and Sansa… If fact, in Sansa’s case, her theme was to recover, reclaim and coming to terms with her identity as Stark (after wanting to be someone else for so long…).
Yes Sansa could be happy when Jon was proclaimed, but there’s also another interpretation that she didn’t seem pleased. She’s smiling when Lyanna Mormont started talking about Starks, but then after Lyanna says “I don’t care if he’s a bastard” she looks up and her smile starts to fade. She was frowning when Lyanna and the Northerners all declare for Jon. When Jon looks at her, she smiles again but her smile drops as she catches Littlefinger’s eye. It doesn’t look good because one weakness is all Littlefinger needed.
Yes, I agree that some interviews aren’t 100% trustworthy. But the cast and D&D also often dropped hints in interviews about next season that turned up to be true. After season 4, D&D revealed that Tyrion would be going east and joining up with new people. Before season 5 Alfie and Sophie gave hints which made the fans able to dreadfully predict Sansa and Ramsay’s marriage. I don’t think we should discount everything they say now because not all of them are misleading.
ghost of winterfell,
So she’s going to be even more annoying. Ugh no thanks.
And how would you explain that she refused the lord’s chamber and called Jon a Stark? I think that final smile was genuine but sure, she was conflicted.
why is she annoying?
Minor point, but Sansa was not an outsider in the family. She had entirely functional relationships with both her parents and all of her full siblings other than Arya (in fact, it was Arya who, in the first book, felt kind of alienated from her full siblings because she looked different from them, has recurring doubts about her mother’s affections, etc.).
Sansa going back and forth is annoying.
Yes she offered him the Lord’s chambers and called him a Stark, but she has her ‘pretty picture’ and ‘who’s the north gonna follow you the trueborn daughter or the bastard born in the South’ talk with Littlefinger after that. Littlefinger is planting seeds in her mind, just like he did in episode 5, which led to Sansa lying about meeting LF and the Knights of the Vale. Then the KITN happened.
I think Sansa loves her family but there is something about her wanting power and credit especially when she thinks she’s entitled to it. How could she not, she’s a legitimate Stark while Jon’s a bastard. The real question is, how far is she gonna push it?
Good point about Arya. She is considered the black sheep in the usual feudal family, but I’m talking in terms of family dynamics that Sansa is the most different from her siblings—that’s the point of the GRRM creating her character. The Stark kids were getting along too well, so he needed someone to create conflict.
I feel quite sure that this is what will happen. LF will probably think he has her on his side, only to find that she isn’t. This will be the end of the season. She will have LF killed, the only question is will she die too in taking him down. (This doubt is purely based on the interviews). I reeally hope not
One thing I do hope is that Jon holds his own in this Sansa-LF mess. Please D&D I don’t want to see clueless Jon please!
Please D&D, don’t give us an omniscient Jon either!!!
A Dornish Tyrell,
I agree. But there is a lot of middle ground between clueless and omniscient 🙂 .
ghost of winterfell,
Certainly! Hopefully we’ll get a “middle ground Jon”… a Jon with strengths and flaws. 🙂
Yes, she is definitely not an outsider in the family, but maybe an “outsider” in the North.
Going back and forth? When did she go back and forth?
Sansa has been through a lot, and I think it was easy for LF to get to her, because for the last five years he was the one who was always there, not Jon… I don’t think she trusts him anyway either, considering the whole Ramsay conversation… that’s why I think she will “fall into his trap” and then turn on him
To me, she’s not annoying (of course she can be to you), she’s a complicated character. But Sansa haters refuse to see that.
If it ends up that I am wrong and she completely turns on Jon for life, then I have to chose a side, and I know which side i’m going to choose. haha
Totally agree… I have a feeling we’ll be left questioning Sansa’s motives for much of next season (and I am dreading the inevitable arguments this is gonna bring from several camps), but in the end she’ll show her true allegiance to the Starks (that never faltered).
I’m guessing any ambiguity on Sansas allegiance will be a crucial part of the storyline next season, contributing to laying a trap for LF and his eventual downfall.
She went back and forth last season since she met LF again. It’s such a waste of time. I’d rather see some other storyline. But of course people who criticize Sansa are obviously haters *eyeroll*
ghost of winterfell,
Don’t hold your breath. They’ll make him clueless as hell.
hahaha your posts are always so negative!
There’s a starkness inside me.
I agree with you.
And Jon wont notice at first because he is a very trusting person. I am sure he has his doubts on LF but Sansa may try and “convince” Jon that she is giving LF a second chance (we need the vale, we need allies etc etc), thereby allowing LF to remain close by. But those same camps that didn’t understand Jon’s story and the reason he made some decisions last season are going to call Jon clueless and stupid LOL.
It will be frustrating if they make Jon appear oblivious to what’s going on around him though.
Because last season we had a justification for some of his questionable decisions and behaviour.
But from this point forward he should be thinking more clearly and after what happened to him at Castle Black with the mutineers he should certainly be more aware of what’s going on around him and keeping an eye on how his decisions affect those who are meant to be loyal to him.
If they depict him as having made no growth at all in those respects then it will be frustrating.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
no, I agree with you on that front, but its a bit different because its Sansa… I believe that she is the last person he would suspect to betray him.. so I am curious to see how it will go. it all depends on how obvious sansa makes it.
If after everything Jon has gone through including his stabbing at the hands of his NW brothers, he still remains as trusting as ever, then what’s the point?
Last year’s decisions by Jon can be understood based on his state of mind, if it’s continued next season, it will be just disappointing.
Expecting Jon to hold his own in any mind games with Sansa/ LF is not asking for too much, imo. I am not saying he has to outwit them himself, but idk, it would be nice if he was at least aware of his threat and kept his eyes open.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
This. I agree.
In ep 10 of last season, he told Sansa that they cannot fight a war amongst themselves. That seems to suggest that he doesn’t trust her completely, at least I hope so.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Of course he is going to be oblivious. He’s Jon Snow and he knows nothing.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
It will depend on when and how LF does his moves… and where is Jon whe he does it. So, Jon might no be aware of it if he’s traveling around the North to prepare it for the WW invasion… I mean, there are multiple possible scenarios in which Jon might be oblivious of LF’s conspiration without meaning that he’s “stupid”.
ghost of winterfell,
ghost of winterfell,
I agree with both your comments… that does suggest to me he doesn’t trust her fully especially because she already lied to him once, but I think that she will be the one he least expects to betray him. LF on the other hand, he should look out for, and I am PRETTY sure he will. He is not that stupid. He aint witty or good at playing games, because lets face it, not every one is, lol, but he is not stupid either.
A Dornish Tyrell,
That is exactly what I was trying to say also. thanks 🙂
LOL. I caught your sarcasm quickly this time.
I saw things a bit differently.
1) I don’t believe that Sansa concealed her meeting with Littlefinger because the later managed to plant some seed. IMO, she didn’t tell Jon, simply because she was ashamed to admit that she was still talking to a man who had wronged her so much. And later she was even more ashamed to tell that she refused an army and was desperately trying to get it back, etc.
2) I don’t think that Sansa was jealous to Jon – she was jealous to Davos, Tormund, and all these other men surrounding him. And I don’t think that she wants power (in a straightforward sense): she knows that winter is here – she brought this message to Jon herself, and that was the final argument for her to encourage Jon to take the lord’s chamber (and the position of the KITN along with that). Sansa may not be the wisest person in the show, but she definitely knows that she is not fit to lead the North in wartime. However, wanting Jon to be a king, Sansa also wants to a queen by his side – not in a romantic sense, but rather in the sense of position and role. She also wants to be his closest friend and the most trusted adviser. However, she wrecked that herself when she denied Jon emotional support he was begging for on the eve of the battle and started yelling at him instead.
An Jon in easy to hurt. His emotional dynamic was rather interesting in Ep 9-10. First, he was really happy to see Sansa with the Knights of the Vale, but after he washed his face and thought things through he got really mad. He demonstrated that explicitely when Rickon’s body was brought in: he said “I – not we – will bury my brother next to my father” and turned his back on Sansa. Next day he lamented about where he sat when his family had feasts and it looked like he was planning to take the Lord’s chair this time. Mel gave him a cold shower – two cold showers in fact, and after realizing that the god which resurrected him might be evil Jon decided to give the Lord’s Chamber to Sansa. However, after he has been proclaimed KITN by northern lords, I wouldn’t underestimate his temptation to do things his own way without looking back to Sansa – especially if she starts yelling at him again (and she will).
So, yes – I can imagine a conflict between them, but for different reasons. I see Sansa desiring attention, rather than power and I don’t think that in case of the conflict she will be the only one to blame. In fact, I can even see Jon to be blamed first of all – he needs more shades of grey after all and this would be a good opportunity to add him some.
Of cause, the truth did came out and Jon got really angry: when Rickon’s body was brought to him, he even didn’t look at Sansa, he said “I will bury him next to my farther” not “
Didn’t even try to hide it this time. I’m in a mood for jokes today.
Wait, what’s with these Sansa and death comments?
I mean, yes she is annoying, but I don’t get why people want her dead so bad just because of those interviews. It can mean everything and not just a character dying.
I think neither Sansa or Arya will die. But still I have bad feeling that at least one of loveable major character will not make it to season finale. Theon? I hope not.
It’s really hard for me to even guess where they’re taking Sansa on the show. They say the ‘endgame’ should end up being as close as they can get to what George plans, or was planning for when he told them. I can typically separate the books and show and have been okay with changes as the story had typically moved in the same general direction. They appear to have taken Sansa off in their own way though. Sure, fine, do that if they want, but for me it almost creates two characters out of one if the paths diverge too much.
Here’s the problem… Viewers-only might say that “Sansa has been through so much.” Most of that ‘so much’ and the worst of it is her time with Ramsey though. That arc became pretty much the biggest piece of her character development on the show. All of that experience affected her very much and will have major effects on her decisions moving forward. That whole ordeal happens to Jeyne in the books though so Sansa doesn’t have that hell in her mind to shape and change her the way the show has. She hasn’t changed nearly as much in the books yet and mainly just hasn’t had things go her way. Here’s a line from her sample chapter in TWoW speaking with Sweetrobin:
Those are the same kind of thoughts she had about Joffrey in the beginning of the story. It’s hard to see how she’d mentally get from (there) to where she’s ended up and heading on the show.
I guess I just have to work harder to separate the character between the two mediums. After both stories are complete though, if they have show Sansa do something major (that I don’t like of course) that book Sansa doesn’t I’ll be really upset. 🙂
But reading all these comments, I think people need to stop overanalyzing a character. It makes my head really hurts.
My guess is that Book!Sansa will end up in the North… pretty much where Show!Sansa is right now. So, the “endgame” will be similar, even if books and show have taken different paths.
Agree with you with all my heart 😀 that’s truly how I think of her character, and I feel weird when her fans thinking the opposites and began to exaggerating
I just keep in mind that Sophie has always played around with interviews for what’s happening next (Maisie too, and the others to varying extents). I mean, they can’t very well spill the beans, and suggestion and misdirection are part of the game.
I just go with the assumption that there are going to be mass casualties, not less in the upcoming seasons. And they’ll hurt, they’ll be the characters we’re invested in. But we know to expect the worst, hope for the best, and come back for more. ☺
Are you reading or listening to what the actors are saying? There’s some
Pretty heavy hints there… it’s what we’ve been discussing and has nothing to do with “hating” any characters (most of us don’t)
It amazes me that we’re almost 7 seasons into a show that is renowned the world over for killing off our most beloved characters, and yet still so many of us don’t see how likely it is this pattern will continue. Even though we’re approaching the endgame and (more to the point) some of the actors have dropped some pretty huge hints. ?
If I didn’t like GOT, I wouldn’t discuss it or put any time or thought into it. Once again, just because some has an opinion that is different then yours or isnt 100% positive, that doesn’t make them a hater.
I think it’s a big leap to infer from the existence of a ‘Sansa’s Chamber’ set that she will be isolated from the goings-on in the Great Hall. There are plenty of imaginable scenes that could appropriately take place in her chamber at Winterfell.
For one thing, she is due to reunite with Sandor quite soon. What better place for that to happen than her finding him hiding in her room, echoing the last time she saw him, just after the Battle of the Blackwater?
Arya, on the other hand, seems more likely to encounter Sandor out in the wild or on the road somewhere, or perhaps at the Inn at the Crossroads. She might be much more convincingly disguised as a boy than the last time he saw her! If he turns up at Winterfell having acquired a random squire on the road, or if the BoB happen to find a new young recruit on their way north, I think we can guess who that will turn out to be.
It didn’t bother me that you had different opinion but the fact, that you called the show “fanfiction” which is a statement usually used by book purists and hate-watchers. As far as I’m concerned, there are people on this site, who are not genuine fans of GoT.
I agree that Sansa will probably kill Littlefinger, but it would be to easy to let that happen without a twist.
What if Sansa will die (don’t know by who) and Arya will take Sansa’s face to get close to Littlefinger and kill him (after she learns that he betrayed her family, from I don’t know who)
Arya taking Sansa’s face would definitely classify as ‘heartbreaking’
Well my long standing crack pot was, the Starks forgot a promise or something in an agreement maybe they have to provide a Queen and maybe Lyanna was to be that Queen but Rhaegar came into the picture.
Sansa’s sacrifice is she marrys the Ice King to keep the peace, but is allowed to travel between LOAW and Westeros bringing normalized seasonal changes.
So Sansa is a Persephone figure? Interesting concept. Not sure I buy it, but thought-provoking.
The Lyanna part would explain the image in Dany’s HotU vision of the blue rose growing out of the crack in the Wall.
What do you mean by genuine? Are people who are not ‘genuine’ fans of GoT not allowed on this site? Who decides if fans as ‘genuine’ or not? Are we not allowed to criticize the show on here?
This is my way of thinking also, she helps get her home and family back, there will be conflict eventually she will have to end LF and get back to her book version where we know from GRRM Alaynne snippet that
Yes, and why I labeled it under crack pot.
OK… This is similar to the accusation of not being a true or genuine fan of Sansa just because someone doesn’t have the “right” opinions. I know you said different opinions don’t bother you, but your accusations suggest otherwise.
As for fan fiction, I don’t know what other term could be used when fans of a book series take the characters of that series and write completely different stories about them. That is specifically what Dan and David did with Sansa. Instead of adapting her story, they replaced it completely with a take of their own making.
George even responded to a question from a fan who equated the show to doc and he seemed to agree, saying that the only fan fic he’s ok with is the he receives payment for.
Let me repeat, just because someone has different opinions then you or opinions that aren’t 100% positive, that doesn’t mean they are a hater.
You know what this has been my fear for two seasons that what you wrote will possibly be related to dany and that’s how it will end ..
Think about it sansa doesn’t have anything about wall or north of wall or related to others anywhere in both books and show…
Now dany on the other hand we have the spiral imagery and immune to fire parallels between them..she is also the most beautiful women …she keeps dreaming about how the cold is terrifying and how it tries to find her but she manages to escape by running ..
So if what you suggest happens its more likely to be with dany and not sansa ..I would not like it either
The writers have said that the WWs are nothing but death coming for the people of Westeros. They are not people, they are just weapons created by the Children. Based on their words, I doubt this will happen.
Well my crackpot is well before D &D gave that statement, and mine is based on GRRM description and HIS history and Lore not D & D’s adaptation.
What pact has the Targaryens ever made with the children of the forest? None, this precedes them by 1000’s of years.
again it’s a crackpot theory, I thought about, and it’s ironic that a Stark removed from magic because her wolf was sacrificed by her father would end up in a magical land and marriage to maintain the pact.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Yep ! Ned has been the Starks’ compass, perhaps even more so since his death. On the show, it was illustrated by the Jon / Sansa exchange about winter. Jon’s “Father always promised” was a sweet moment of nostalgia but also appeared to demonstrate that the phrase “winter is coming” is considered by Ned’s children to be his words, as if he were the be all and end all of House Stark. He was not and is not.
It is now their job to step out of Ned’s shadow (bless him !) and make the Stark legacy their own. 😉
I couldn’t agree more. Were only the characters crucial to the Battle for the Dawn to survive the whole ordeal, post-Battle Westeros would be a desert ! ^^
Furthermore, I struggle a bit with the idea of King Jon / Queen Daenerys ruling over the continent after the dead’s defeat. While a part of me wishes for such an ending, another cannot dismiss the notion that both characters’ fates are intimately tied with the Azor Ahai / Prince that was Promised myths. Those are messianic figures who are meant to lead in very specific circumstances. They are presented as saviours, not rulers, divinely appointed for a specific purpose. Which begs the question : what are they supposed to do once said purpose is fulfilled ? The legends do not deal with the aftermath; they end with the dramatic victory.
After bringing the Long Night to an end, did the original Azor Ahai rule over the country like a normal king, resolving conflicts between local lords and overseeing the taxation system ? It almost feels like a let down…
In a weird way, it reminds me of Robert Baratheon. He was a superb warrior, a tremendous general and a bold, remarkable leader with a clear purpose : to avenge his beloved’s “abduction” and the deaths of his friend’s relatives. Once he had accomplished his mission and become king, he was bored beyond belief and hated every single second of his existence.
You are absolutely right; for Jon to maintain a happy-go-lucky attitude after all the things he has been through would be utterly ridiculous.
However, as Dornish Tyrell, Ramsay’s 20th Good Man, Dee Stark and many others have mentioned, the poor man is going to be quite busy next season !
The preparation for the Battle for the Dawn is, in and by itself, tough work but on top of that, he now has to be King ! No one asked him if he thought it was good idea; it was thrust upon him and added to his workload because the Northern lords went through a YOLO moment.
So his King in the North schedule should include : making sure the Wildlings are broadly accepted by his lieges (considering we saw a Free Folk v. Northerner fight erupt in the middle of his camp, it should be interesting), deciding what to do with whatever is left of the former Bolton supporters, overseeing the preparation for winter and possibly providing supplies to those of his vassals who need it the most, dealing with whatever problems and demands the Vale might have, determining a strategy in relation to Daenerys’s arrival (Should the North bend the knee ? Should it negociate ? Should it resist ?) and elaborating an approach to the Cersei situation.
That is one full plate ! By all rules of logic, Jon should barely have the time to sleep, much less make sure everyone in his posse is as dutiful as he expects. ^^
Oh and, let’s not forget that at some point, his brother is probably going to shatter his very sense of self by informing him of his true parentage…
With all of this going on, Jon will have more than enough reasons not to pay that close an attention to his sister.
There has to be some form of renewal of the Starks at Winterfell at the end. Ned went through horrors – war, losing his father, brother, sister – but got through it with his secrets to have his own family. At least one of Jon, Sansa or Arya are going to be able to have their own family. That serves to mark the end of the conflict of the story and for the end of the series to mirror the start.
Personally I think Arya has the hardest road to get to that point. Her focus is vengeance, she’s alone, she has other names to cross off. Maybe all is not lost – Lady Crane – managed to get through to her briefly. But she has been badly damaged by war and its impacts. People earlier in the thread talked about corruption but it’s damage of war.
Also Sophie’s body language and words are being taken as bad news for her but she could be feeling emotional about farewelling actor friends.
Do not understand me wrong. I love this site. It’s my favorite GoT fansite and my second favorite fansite overall and I did not want to insult anyone. Well, I guess it all depends on how you define a word “fan”…
For example, there is a person who watches GoT. They love it at first but then they grew dissatisfied with the series, disliking more and more things and come to the point when they say that they hated the final season. Is that person still a fan?
Another example. A person is a fan of ASOIAF and starts watching GoT. As the series progresses, they get annoyed by all the changes, getting constantly angry at show, coming to the point that they even agree with Elio and Linda who are widely known book purists. Is that person still a fan of GoT? Or are they a fan of ASOIAF who feel “obliged” to watch the show?
Another example. A person comes to this site and posts mostly negative comments, using pretty harsh words and being very passive agressive towards the show, calling it D&D fanfiction, using words “character assassination”, “whitewashing” etc. When confronted, they state that they like the show but do not feel the need to post anything positive. Is that person an actual fan or do they just watch GoT?
Please take note that the upper statements do not describe a specific person. I only summarized what I have encountered on the site. The people on this site are generally very great.
Again, I mean no harm with this comment and I have no problems with different opinions. It’s the tone that bothers me. If I sense disrespect towards the show, I may start to doubt if that person is actually a fan. Trust me, I’ve experienced first hand on my favorite fansite what happens if the people can’t accept others’ opinions. God, I hope I will never have to see something like that… It was also the reason why I was absent from this site for quite a while…
Could happen. If so, I hope they highlight the reasons well.
Your basing your theory on the pact which we do not know about..
But mine is not even a crackpot theory …lets just say its a fear of thought after laat two season and some spcific imageries presented in show ..
I agree with you!
Thanks Dee. I appreciate that.
I think the Brotherhood without banners along with Melisandre and the Hound will join forces to make positive changes to Westeros and then Arya will turn up suddenly and kill them all. At the very least I think her kill list will derail some major plan for the worse.
Do you know what would be very heartbreaking indeed? *beware the tinfoilery spoilery below*
Towards the end of S7, after Arya has arrived at Winterfell, she overhears Sansa and Littlefinger plotting against Jon, waits around the corner and as Sansa steps out she asks “how could you?” and stabs her in the heart with needle. Jon sees this from a distance and comes running. He does not recognize Arya as she has not yet removed whoever’s face she happens to be wearing and overcome with anger slices the throat of this one he saw murder his sister. Arya lays dying, weakly rips off face to reveal herself and Jon is anguished. Afterwards it comes out that it was all a misunderstanding and Sansa had been just pretending to go along with a plot of LF.
Sansa dead. Arya dead. Littlefinger on the run. Jon emotionally broken and wants to die, eventually becoming the new Knight king.
But it doesn’t matter what you or anyone else think when it flies in the face of what the actors and writers are telling us. We can think to ourselves what we’d like to believe is in the minds of characters or think should happen but it’s foolish to insist we know better.
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