Sophie Turner on Littlefinger, Kristofer Hivju on Tormienne, and more

Sophie Turner as Sansa Stark and Aidan Gillen as Petyr “Littlefinger” Baelish. Credit: Helen Sloan/HBO

Credit: Helen Sloan/HBO

After such an emotional episode last Sunday, we have some more lighthearted Game of Thrones Season 6 material for you today. With the Los Angeles Times, Sophie Turner discusses Sansa Stark’s changed feelings for Littlefinger. Kristofer Hivju dishes on Westeros’ hottest new couple “Tormienne” at Screen Crush. We also have a video from Conan where he challenges the Lannisters (Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage) to a game of “Overwatch.”

After rescuing Sansa from the Lannisters (who murdered her family) Littlefinger brought her home to Winterfell and gave her to a different clan (The Boltons) who also murdered her family. Noting the grave error of his ways, Sansa finally gave Littlefinger the treatment he deserved.

Definitely this season she’s sick of being a pawn in everyone else’s game. And finally she’s playing the game. Every time she goes somewhere with someone, it doesn’t work out. So just doing her own thing and trying to make people listen to her. It’s very much about her taking her own path.

Turner comments on the speech she delivered to Littlefinger where she addressed the horrid acts she endured.

It was very empowering. It was a big moment for her. It was kind of a moment where she’s voicing what everyone else is wanting her to say. [It’s] finally happening for her. It was a big thing for me, I think, because it was the first time that she’s really stood on her own and been true to herself and been unafraid to say what she wants and say what she means. It was a very big moment; very, very emotional.

She also adds the scene “wasn’t difficult” to film and “felt like a release of emotion.”

Turner talks more on Sansa’s growth in Season 6, why she lied to Jon, and more over at The LA Times.


The most unexpected yet quickest-to-love ship of Season 6 involved none other than the bearded wildling Tormund Giantsbane and the oathkeeping knight Brienne of Tarth. While we’ve heard from Gwendoline Christie (Brienne) recently, it’s time to hear what Kristofer Hivju (Tormund) has to say.

That was unexpected, huh?

Yes, yes it was. He laughs and gushes over working with the lovely Gwendoline:

We had a lot of fun with it. She’s a great actress and she’s a walking, laughing machine. It was a day of doing that. Some of the scenes are deleted. But we had a lot of fun and nobody saw that coming.

giphy

He even has his own name for the ship: “Briemund the Tarth Bane.”

Being involved with Jon’s resurrection involved secrets, secrets, and more secrets being kept on set. He says even some of the other actors were kept in the dark:

Well I must say that Kit Harington is a brilliant liar. He made a huge drama, he even had a speech and said like, “I’m so grateful to be on this show” and “nice to work with you all.” And Maisie [Williams] one night, she went up to him and she took him by the ears and she looked him deeply into the eyes and she said, “Is it true? Are you dead?” And with tears in his eyes he said, “Yes Maisie. I’m sorry, but I am dead. I’m not coming back.” So he was a brilliant liar to all of us. He really kept that. But of course when we read the script for this season we all knew what was going to happen. Then we had the shared lie.

Hivju further reminiscences keeping Jon Snow secrets, teases a big battle, and even touches on his role in Fast 8 over at Screen Crush.

Lastly, enjoy the video of Conan playing “Overwatch” with Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister) and Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister)!

Are you glad to see Sansa finally taking charge? Have you climbed aboard the S.S. Tormienne? Let us know below!

270 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. “Some of the scenes are deleted.”

      They better appear on the DVD. I’m all about Torriene!

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    2. Flayed Potatoes:
      “Some of the scenes are deleted.”

      They better appear on the DVD. I’m all about Torriene!

      Yes. It must be a special extra and everything. You can have the regular deleted scenes and have these be separate.

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    3. “So just doing her own thing and trying to make people listen to her.”

      Yeah, Davos was listening to Sansa and refuting everything she said. She pulls rank of him, asking how well he knows the North, when it’s clear that Davos knows far more than she does.

      Oh..and did you see the horrified looks Jon was giving her? Where are the Jon Snow fans, aren’t you going to defend your boy?!!
      I think Sansa is insane.

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    4. The last scene in the season will be 20 night’s watch men defending the wall. And Edd will have some kind of epic last man standing scene before his death.

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    5. Bodog:
      Angela,

      I wonder if Tormund will try to steal Brienne….gods I would love to watch that attempt….

      Oh Seven Hells. It is going to be a funny scene if it ever happens.

      Brienne is already converting to him. She dished about him with her BFF Sansa. I think they said there is a deleted scene where Sansa teases her a little about Tormund. Like a girl talks to her bestie about her crush. Brienne kinda likes him but doesn’t know what to do next. It is a mixture of fascination and confusion. It is a hilarious. It is nice to have a little joy in this show.

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    6. Anon,

      Yes, Davos shut her down nicely. Showed her that she knows very little and yet tries to pretend like she’s so competent all of a sudden. Her new-found cocky attitude is jarring. She acts so high and mighty now, only because she’s surrounded by people who would protect her and not harm her. As always she relies on others, but thinks she’s game and can achieve stuff through her own merit.

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    7. Everyone already knows what I think of Sansa right now, which is not tremendously positive. Still I’m hoping like anything I’m wrong, because it would indeed be painful to finally have 2 Starks back and already have one keeping the other in the dark, perhaps dangerously so.

      “Taking her own path” doesn’t sound terribly like working with Jon does it?

      Howwww could they delete that scene now with Brienne leaving Tormund for the Riverlands?! We needed something to hold us over.

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    8. Pigeon:
      Tormund can’t even talk around Brienne, this is gold. That crazy smile. Instant mood boost.

      Then it makes Brienne so uncomfortable yet intrigued at the same time. Amazing.

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    9. Nadia,

      I don’t think they will go that way….would be pretty predictable…I think in the end Sansa will show her worth and take care of LF and make the Starks proud. To have her betray Jon would just be ridiculous.

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    10. LOL, Sophie didn’t know Summer died this past episode! The interviewer spoiled it for her.

      I still don’t know how to interpret Sansa lying to Jon, so I like Sophie’s explanation that Sansa can no longer be fully honest with anyone and that she wants to hold all the power when it comes to Littlefinger. Granted, that’s just an actor’s biased interpretation of their character’s actions, so I’ll wait to see how Sansa behaves towards Jon in the next few episodes before deciding if it’s all just PTSD issues or manipulation.

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    11. Bodog,

      People keep saying “BETRAY” like she’s going to literally stab him. Keeping a secret that results in extra deaths, his mens’ deaths, even if she doesn’t mean for more people to die because SHE wants to deal with LF is about as irresponsible and selfish as you can be. Again, she doesn’t have to be trying to steal Winterfell away from Jon for him to see her actions as a betrayal.

      THAT is my point, not that she’s trying to get Jon killed. Just that she’s knowingly keeping information from him that could save lives, potentially even his life (THEY don’t know he’s not going to die in battle, the audience does), because she wants to hold the cards.

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    12. Nadia,

      Good point…so what do you think will happen? She will take over the vale and become the warden of the east? Maybe Snow take the role of KITN?

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    13. Nadia:
      Everyone already knows what I think of Sansa right now, which is not tremendously positive. Still I’m hoping like anything I’m wrong, because it would indeed be painful to finally have 2 Starks back and already have one keeping the other in the dark, perhaps dangerously so.

      “Taking her own path” doesn’t sound terribly like working with Jon does it?

      Howwww could they delete that scene now with Brienne leaving Tormund for the Riverlands?! We needed something to hold us over.

      I hope there a little scene of them parting ways. Hoping for too much. Oh well.

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    14. How could they cut Torienne scenes knowing that they’ll be parted now?? LOL they had no idea how crazy people would go over it

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    15. Nadia,

      Sansa’s actions made me think of Catelyn and Robb – when she released Jaime behind Robb’s back(treason), which led to killing the Lannister boys, which led to the Karstark beheading which lead to the Karstarks turning against the Starks and toward Ramsay Bolton.

      Robb wasn’t able to punish his mother as harshly as he punished Karstark for the same crime, and that caused discord among his men…and ultimately led to his demise.

        Quote  Reply

    16. Bodog,

      D&D please make this happen! You know, it could be like the scene with Ygritte luring Jon into the cave. Only Tormund is the one kissed by fire who’s like all “I want you to see me.” lol Oh man that might be too much. XD

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    17. Criterion,

      sansa haters? lol i hater will hate her for whatever reasons but right now some people see that theire is something “off” with her and she act strangely so you can still stay positive and optimistic when the D&D themself said that littlefinger “still have a hold on her” and that she is less stark than ever….and sophie said that sansa will be a bit selfish despite knowing that jon is her big bro and davos older and wiser. so please of course there is sansa haters but don’t put every people who “dare” find sansa “empowerement” weird….

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    18. emperor:

      sansa haters? lol i hater will hate her for whatever reasons but right now some people see that theire is something “off” with her and she act strangely so you can still stay positive and optimistic when the D&D themself said that littlefinger “still have a hold on her”and that she is less stark than ever….and sophie said that sansa will be a bit selfish despite knowing that jon is her big bro and davos older and wiser. so please of course there is sansa haters but don’t put every people who “dare” find sansa “empowerement” weird….

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    19. emperor,

      Seriously, I’m far from a Sansa hater. I was dying over Jon and Sansa back together and want nothing more than for them to the amazing badass Stark pair we all want them to be. But her behavior is really disconcerting. I was so taken aback by how good their chemistry was in the first episode together that Sansa’s behavior in the second is way off

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    20. emperor,
      i agree i am sick who people who sees haters everywhere BUT
      actually…i want that tension..it would be completly out of character for the both character to happy lovey dovey scene it would be boring….sansa care and love jon but there is a hidden side of her that still think of jon as a half brother and baelish know that and play with it…sansa’s lies maybe mean good but is selfish and not necessesary the relationship she have with jon is new and fragile and cannot be build on lies

      i also notice that she ignore what jon just live for 3 years before she arrive…”i kill good men,i killed member of the night watch i even kill a child!younger than bran!”etc and than sansa reply “i will take winterfell with or without you…” you don’t see something weird there?

      i am even suprised that people think she owned littlefinger on that when it is obvious that baelish put a seed in her mind

      i don’t see jon having a argue with her its jon if sansa told him to go to hell to save the stark he will do it..but sansa….i think this will not be the last time she lie to him and when jon will notice her deal with baelish,the lies,the death of aunt lysa,ned’s death (even if sansa don’t know) will form a wheel of complete distrust and hurt feeling for him….i hope i am wrong..but actually sansa bring more mess than benefit from this lie

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    21. Aryamad:
      Bodog,

      D&D please make this happen! You know, it could be like the scene with Ygritte luring Jon into the Cave. Only Tormund is the one kissed by fire who’s like all “I want you to see me.” lol Oh man that might be too much. XD

      Goodness, this made me laugh! But yes, it would be too much. 😀

        Quote  Reply

    22. Nadia:
      Bodog,

      People keep saying “BETRAY” like she’s going to literally stab him. Keeping a secret that results in extra deaths, his mens’ deaths, even if she doesn’t mean for more people to die because SHE wants to deal with LF is about as irresponsible and selfish as you can be. Again, she doesn’t have to be trying to steal Winterfell away from Jon for him to see her actions as a betrayal.

      THAT is my point, not that she’s trying to get Jon killed. Just that she’s knowingly keeping information from him that could save lives, potentially even his life (THEY don’t know he’s not going to die in battle, the audience does), because she wants to hold the cards.

      We know your thoughts you’ve said it many times, but can you really blame her?

      The girl has been put through hell at the hands of men, using her for their various agendas. And now she wants revenge for that,and to never be put in that position again and will use any means at her disposal (including hiding the truth and turning one of those men away) to guarantee and safeguard her own position. After all the fuss about Sansa losing her agency last season, she finally gets some and now she gets crucified for it?

      Wait and see how it all pans out. She clearly has a plan. And LF will likely suffer for it by the end of the season by losing his life at her hands.

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    23. Apollo,

      Refusing LF is asserting agency. Lying about all the rest of that – how is that “agency”?

      But you’re right, we shall see. At the end of the day, there’s still the hope that Sansa understands the real threat is the WW, Jon said just that in the meeting. I never said she’d turn on Jon, and I do think Sansa would know the war to come matters just as much.

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    24. Criterion,

      It’s been the same relentless talk since the episode aired, I am surprised it’s the main topic of discussion given the huge ramifications of Bran’s actions. Like his recklessness could bring down the wall.

      Anywho, I am waiting with bated breath with regards to this betrayal taking place. It’s being talked into existence.

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    25. The show really is doing a lot of Jon/Sansa mirroring Ned/Cat isn’t it? Feels like season 1 when Ned didn’t want to go to King’s Landing and Cat convinced him to.

      I’m so so curious how and when Jon will find out about R+L. It sounds like episode 10, but that sounds like after Bastard Bowl?

      Based on Kit saying one episode really explores his character, I wonder if it’s that episode AFTER the battle? And if LF is involved somehow in the ramifications.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Nadia:
      Apollo,

      Refusing LF is asserting agency. Lying about all the rest of that – how is that “agency”?

      But you’re right, we shall see. At the end of the day, there’s still the hope that Sansa understands the real threat is the WW, Jon said just that in the meeting. I never said she’d turn on Jon, and I do think Sansa would know the war to come matters just as much.

      I’m sure she will once her short term goals are achieved, which admittedly have blinded her to the big picture. I honestly don’t think she’s lying to deliberately cause unnecessary deaths, she’s simply not thought it through tactically (which is what Davos etc were trying to do).

      When the Wall falls in ep10, then she’ll sure as hell see the big picture 😉

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    27. Nadia,

      First of all, it helps to at least try to have some basic empathy if you want to understand characters’ motivations. I don’t think you don’t quite grasp the bearings of Sansa’s ordeal, because your characterization of her does not seem to take that into account at all.

      Secondly, I doubt very much that they arrive at the battlefield and then go “Oh we need more men” and then Sansa goes to Moat Cailin to get the Vale army while everyone is slaughtered. They will probably notice that they don’t have enough soldiers and probably even that the Tullys are not coming, before they go to Winterfell.

      There are a lot of different ways the scenario could play out in the end and I don’t necessarily understand why your mind is so fixed on wanting to villify Sansa. It could very well be that Jon is the idiot who -for whatever reason- starts the battle early instead of waiting for the Vale army to arrive and thusly endangers his life and the lives of his men.

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    28. Apollo,

      Perhaps. And if TOJ reveal is in episode 10 and by then LF and Jon are at Winterfell, perhaps LF plays a role in kind of confirming R+L and that’s why he has to be around….

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    29. Nadia: Ned didn’t want to go to King’s Landing and Cat convinced him to.

      Did not happen in the show. Cat was against Ned leaving Winterfell.

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    30. Wylie,

      Is it vilifying to believe D&D who say she doesn’t really trust Jon, she’s not a “clean and pure Stark” whatever that means and the LF still has hold over her?

      Anyway, we’ll see. Sansa lied to Jon and it’s to Jon’s detriment right now. Whether she’ll come clean, whether that costs Jon, or whether he has cause to be angry will remain to be seen! I want nothing more than 2 Starks to have each others’ back completely. I just don’t think the show will give that to us unfortunately.

        Quote  Reply

    31. lord of blogfell:
      emperor,
      i don’t see jon having a argue with her its jon if sansa told him to go to hell to save the stark he will do it..but sansa….i think this will not be the last time she lie to him and when jon will notice her deal with baelish,the lies,the death of aunt lysa,ned’s death (even if sansa don’t know) will form a wheel of complete distrust and hurt feeling for him….i hope i am wrong..but actually sansa bring more mess than benefit from this lie

      There’s a scene in the trailer showing LF in an icy forest with someone wearing something like a gown/long coat. One of the chat threads here showed a lightened version and you could clearly see some red hair strands. It could be Sansa. She might meet with him again secretly before the battle. I still believe that Sansa would not put Jon’s life in danger deliberately but her actions, her playing the game, could potentially either endanger him or put a wedge between them. We have to remember, LF is a genius when it comes to playing this game. Sansa better be careful in thinking that she’s one-upping him. That’s what he’d like her to think so he could manipulate her more!

      Anon:
      Nadia,

      Sansa’s actions made me think of Catelyn and Robb – when she released Jaime behind Robb’s back(treason), which led to killing the Lannister boys, which led to the Karstark beheading which lead to the Karstarks turning against the Starks and toward Ramsay Bolton.

      Robb wasn’t able to punish his mother as harshly as he punished Karstark for the same crime, and that caused discord among his men…and ultimately led to his demise.

      Yes, and just like Catelyn who felt her action was justifiable and who didn’t intend to harm Robb, Sansa’s actions could also be “pure” in the sense that she wouldn’t intentionally betray Jon. However, there are consequences when you do something sneaky like that.

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    32. Nadia,
      Oh I did listen to what D&D had to say. But, I also got the context that your fantasies of how it will all play out to poor Jon’s detriment, are missing IMO.

      Your point of view is very Jon-centric. Everything Sansa does only exists in relation to Jon and even the scenes that should tell us that she wants to trust him and sees him as her brother are now interpreted as false and scheming to fit your narrative.

      Again, many other scenarios are possible, as I pointed out above.

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    33. Wylie,

      Ahh, this annoys me when people bring book events not present in the show into it. I was discussing Sansa’s lie on another site and they said you can’t trust her because she ratted to Cersei.

      Two different cannons people!

      As to why she lied, I don’t really know. It does seem odd to me. Littlefinger played on her insecurities, so perhaps if she said it came from him, they would think going after the Tullys would be a bad idea. Davis seemed to like it when she mentioned the Blackfish.

      With that said. I don’t think it is a power play or a manipulation of Jon.

      What I found more ridiculous is that no body knew she left Castle Black.

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    34. Apollo,

      This is a good comment and you should feel good. But seriously, it’s kind of hilarious how quick people are to vilify Sansa for this (or for any behavior that isn’t 100% Unquestionably Good). And by hilarious, I mean maddening.

      Sophie Turner said it well, IMO. She’s been broken, and this is what all her trauma has made her into: a young woman who can no longer fully trust anyone, even if intellectually she might know that Jon would never harm her. For the first time ever, she has the freedom, the safety and most of all the power to act on her own behalf, and yet people expect her to instantly be able to make all the right, smart and moral choices. Why? Why on earth would she able to do any of those things, when she’s spent the last few years being forced to grow up among and be under the influence of some of the worst people in the world?

      Personally, I find her moral grayness and ambiguity fascinating, more than the (more or less) straightforward heroism of characters like Jon, or the cartoonish villainy of characters like Ramsay. I like her imperfections. I like that she can thoughtlessly compare Jon to Ramsay one moment (and I don’t think she meant anything bad by it, I think she honestly meant to say that everyone in the North would see Jon as Ned Stark’s son, bastard or no, and that there is value in that), and in the next moment, gift Jon with the work of her own hands that explicitly acknowledges him as a Stark. I mean, that was huge.

      I get the desire to want her to be 100% Stark, with all the honor and honesty that goes with it, especially since people consider her to be the least Stark-like Stark to begin with. Because the Starks are the heroes, so Sansa should be unquestionably heroic too. But you know what? Being unflinchingly Stark keeps getting the Starks killed. So screw it, I’m rooting for Sansa to find her own way. Even if it blows up in her face (which it will almost certainly will), even if it gets people killed (which is horrible, but guess what? It’s a consequence of pretty much every significant choice that anyone in Westeros with any bit of power makes, even the honorables ones). Maybe she will become more Stark-like before she meets her end. Or maybe she’ll become her own creature, shaped by all her unique experiences, with a foot in both the North and the South, with regards to her values. I’m cool with it either way, and I can’t wait to see it all unfold.

      Okay, wow, this got long.

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    35. Nadia:
      Wylie,

      Is it vilifying to believe D&D who say she doesn’t really trust Jon, she’s not a “clean and pure Stark” whatever that means and the LF still has hold over her?

      I think the writers intend this to be Sansa’s character development – to come into her own but in the process, she would lose her “Stark-ness”. Remember in the books, she kept reminding herself that she’s no longer Sansa Stark, that she’s now Alayne Stone. She’s learning to deceive others so she could survive.

      Not only did D&D mention that in the clip (not being a Pure Stark) but in the LA Times interview, Sophie also said that “she doesn’t have that Stark way about her anymore.” That’s interesting. She’s being molded into this game player. And why not? In a sense, she grew up with the likes of Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, and LF.

      So, it’s interesting that the Starks who finally get reunited are Sansa and Jon – one who doesn’t have the Stark way about her anymore (to quote Sophie) and another who’s kept on saying he’s not a Stark.

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    36. I was surprised by Sansa’s behaviour … it was a little confusing. I kind of understood that she trusted more in Brienne to deal with Littlefinger … It was her decision to reject Littlefinger’s help and deep down she knows they need the Vale. Davos and Jon would have accepted a deal for sure. She knows that.
      Sansa is overconfident in the North’s loyalty to the Starks as Robb was. Robb though the Karstarks would keep their support after killing Lord Karstark … that only happens in the Vale, apparently. She though they could win by themselves before the meeting with Davos. I don’t think she had the plan to sacrifice Jon’s army first and then use the Vale, as some people is suggesting. Besides, Jon doesn’t have an army. The wildlings want to live in the North and they have to fight for it. Sansa can’t really consider the Vale’s army loyal to her.
      But, the lie could have consequences … Jon won’t be happy about it if he finds out…. Littlefinger will join the Blackfish in Moat Cailin.

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    37. Nadia,

      “Agency” in this case means having the choice to take actions for oneself. It does not mean always making the unequivocally moral choice that benefits the greater good, good lord.

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    38. Apollo,

      he girl has been put through hell at the hands of men, using her for their various agendas. And now she wants revenge for that,and to never be put in that position again and will use any means at her disposal (including hiding the truth and turning one of those men away) to guarantee and safeguard her own position. After all the fuss about Sansa losing her agency last season, she finally gets some and now she gets crucified for it?

      This

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    39. Shaz,

      In the books, Catelyn is the one who pushes Ned, because it’ll mean Sansa gets a royal betrothal. Just reread the books and it’s interesting the ways they’re paralleling Ned/Cat with Jon/Sansa. Especially with Sansa being the one who wants vengeance.

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    40. ash,

      No, it didn’t. You’re imagining things, like the people who swear up and down that Robb on the show made a will making Jon his heir, when that never happened. In fact, the circumstances that led Robb to do that in the books were removed from the show. It’s called the Mandela Effect, like when people believe that the Berenstain Bears were always called the Berenstein Bears.

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    41. But by all the gods Old and New, Drowned and Light, pleeeaaase let Tormund live beyond this season.

      I fear who will be lost at the BotB or when the Wall comes down 🙁

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    42. Nadia,

      People are going to keep on. But of everyone there I’d rather bichy beaten down Sansa to deal with LF. The rest are like Ned Stark. We know what happen when he came across LF. Sansa actually understand LF somewhat, she knows he’s not doing things to help her or anyone but himself. She’s the only one remotely equip to deal with him. The rest would jump for joy to have him help take Winterfell, then he murders Jon Snow and Tormund after they defeat Ramsey. Its that angle people should look at it from instead of poor Jon Snow, he died, now he got lied to, sob sob

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    43. Nadia:
      Shaz,

      In the books, Catelyn is the one who pushes Ned, because it’ll mean Sansa gets a royal betrothal. Just reread the books and it’s interesting the ways they’re paralleling Ned/Cat with Jon/Sansa. Especially with Sansa being the one who wants vengeance.

      partially right. When they received Lysa’s letter Cat said Ned had to go so that he could find out what really happened to John Ayrran , not because she wanted Sansa to wed Joffrey. But after Brans “accident” she did not want him to leave and was furious he was still going .
      Book Ned/Cat are completely differet from Show Jon/Sansa. the only parallels I see are he is moody northerner and she has red hair

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    44. Anon:
      Nadia,

      Sansa’s actions made me think of Catelyn and Robb – when she released Jaime behind Robb’s back(treason), which led to killing the Lannister boys, which led to the Karstark beheading which lead to the Karstarks turning against the Starks and toward Ramsay Bolton.

      Robb wasn’t able to punish his mother as harshly as he punished Karstark for the same crime, and that caused discord among his men…and ultimately led to his demise.

      You’re a bit over the top with this comparison. It isn’t a good one.

      Rob had a position of authority over Cat. Jon doesn’t have a similar position over Sansa. He gave up his title of Lord commander (which wouldn’t give him power to command Sansa in any case) and has no other title at present. She is technically Wardeness of the North, as Ramsays wife. The fact that she has left him doesn’t really change that. Not unless he repudiates her or remarries.

      As to Jon, he is her “half brother” and he happens to have an army that Sansa is looking to benefit from. And he wouldn’t even be using it to retake Winterfell if she didn’t push him toward it. Which is something I imagine u want him to do. Thanks, Sansa.

      As to this idea that he should be the one to rule: She is the Stark. Her claim is better, if she chooses to make it. Them’s the breaks. Wishing Jon to be the KITN over her seems a bit anti feminist (by which i mean chauvinistic, in case u would argue that feminists are anti men or just bitches or whatever.)

      Furthermore, Cat betrayed Robb by going against his orders. Sansa has done nothing of the sort. She wants to be in charge w Littlefinger and frankly that is her prerogative. She deserves something for what she has been through because of him. And if she doesn’t trust her “half brother” as much as she claims to Brienne, that is understandable given what she has been through. Her experience in Kings Landinf alone has taught her not to trust ppl.

      I am glad to see her defending her own interests. Good for Sansa.

      In the end, she is going to work with Jon. Her gift made that clear if nothing else has. She will aid him and counsel him, and he will help her by commanding. Monarchy is a family thing, a corporate structure shared between multiple ppl.

      There is no need for the Sansa hate. The only reason I can see for someone to react this way is they still hate her character even after all she has been through and how much she has changed. Which is hateful. Either that or u r a misogynist. And that’s sad. As Maisie Williams said you are either a normal (feminist) or whatever it was she said. Can’t remember. (Just using this line in case you are an Arya fan. In the hopes it will help u see the light). Maybe u don’t realize that is how you are coming off.

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    45. Sam,

      Make no mistake about it, they need the Vale, I think the scene in the trailer is in the godswood in Winterfell. LF seem surprised by who shows up, which maybe she lured him there under false prentence. Next thing is of Note in the trailer, when Sansa says, ‘all I think about, what was taken from me’……you see Ramsey, then Walder Frey toasting, then LF and he seems troubled. She has him in his cross ears. And am almost positive she’s going to end him. And it’s going to all come back around to how he tutored her,how she shadowed him and plot his demise. She is the only person he told pretty much everything, unprompted and unnecessarily at times, not noticing how each time she is becoming a little more tougher and devious and saw who he really was and it came to a head with him marrying her to Ramsey. IMO of course

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    46. Beer Island,

      That’s a good point. I do think Jon at this point is a much more canny person than poor Ned was in King’s Landing, especially after his betrayal at the hands of his brothers. And Davos is a very shrewd fella. I think they’d both know enough to be wary of Littlefinger. But, plot-induced stupidity aside, Littlefinger is still a master manipulator and power player second to none, especially in all that he’s accomplished for himself. If he wanted to, he’d run rings around Jon and Davos, especially with the might of the Vale behind him. (Also, he has a jet pack. Jon and Davos don’t have jet packs, which automatically puts them at a disadvantage.)

      Now, I’m not convinced Sansa has what it takes to outplay Littlefinger. But she knows him better than anyone in the North, possibly better than anyone ever. If anyone has a chance of finding and exploiting Littlefinger’s weakness, it’s her. And if you subscribe to certain ideas that do have some support in the canon (I myself waffle on it), it may just be that Littlefinger’s weakness is Sansa herself.

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    47. I am shocked some people aren’t feeling Sansa this season. She is perhaps my FAVORITE character this season and almost every scene of hers this year has been a highpoint of the episode.

      Some people are taken back that she is acting differently this season, but it makes perfect sense. Sansa has been holding back her emotions for years, even Tyrion recognized that she was always saying one thing, but holding in how she really felt. Now that she finally is in a place of safety she can tell everyone around her what this young woman that has been abused for five seasons really feels and thinks. She has been a little firecracker for awhile now, she called Joffrey a coward to his face in subtle ways, she called Ramsay a bastard to get under his skin, and told Miranda off to show that she wasn’t afraid (even if she was), but she always had to pick and choose her battles, mostly choosing to hide behind the persona of a dumb little girl with nothing to say. But now she doesn’t have hide that side of her. She is in position to play the game just like she saw from Tyrion, Littlefinger, Cersei, and Margery. She’s still a little misguided, Davos pointed that out when critiquing that her knowledge and trust in Northern houses might still be idealistic, but it’s perfectly in character for her to not be a perfect strategist right now. And it’s interesting. How would an angry young woman react in this situation?

      I also am happy that she lied to Jon, it makes her more interesting. She could just be his lapdog that gives him every piece of herself so he can go make things better but her abuse has formed an agency that she guards and keeps closely, and motivations that might not directly align with everyone else, even those that support her. I can see a cooperative rivalry developing between her and Jon, and that would make for an awesome development of their relationship, rather than them being the best of friends that never hide anything and always work at achieving their goals in perfect harmony.

      Sansa learned bits and pieces from Cersei, and Margery, and Lady Olenna, and The Hound, and Tyrion, and Littlefinger, and took abuse from Ramsay, and Joffrey, and Cersei. It would frankly be out of character for her to come out of that with a perfectly black and white view of the world that doesn’t involve manipulating people, bending the truth, and being a lot more aggressive to get what you want accomplished. She might fail in some respects, but she’s going to fail on her own agency, and that is good drama to watch.

      Of all of the criticism of this season, THAT is the one thing I disagree with 1000%. I’m all on board for what they have done with her character as a logical progression from the first 5 seasons.

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    48. lord of blogfell,

      I think u are right that Sansa is being selfish about not caring what Jon has been through. But he is also being selfish. He isn’t worried about avenging her abuse or about saving the world anymore. Not that I think avenging her should be that high on his list of priorities when all his has is a few thousand wildlings. Not sure what he would have done without the impetus that Sansa’s encouragement and the pink letter gave him. I think it all works out though. Sansa isn’t perfect, but like Jon she is a product of her circumstances and I don’t think this suspicion of her is warranted. Nor do I think she betrayed Jon and her actions are going to bring his army to ruin. He certainly won’t die again this season anyway. Also, I would point out that we have no idea how he would have reacted to LF message.

      On the other hand, I wonder how many ppl would be angry if Jon had a message from someone that he knew and Sansa didn’t – it’s hard to make this hypothetical but bear with me – and then he went to see them without telling Sansa and didn’t fully disclose his meeting later. Would ppl be raving that he has betrayed Sansa?

      All I’m saying is equality is the best policy and we should think about that before we rush to judgment.

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    49. Bodog:
      Angela,

      I wonder if Tormund will try to steal Brienne….gods I would love to watch that attempt….

      His ‘massive member’ might lose a few inches/feet if he will try to steal Brienne.

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    50. Black Fish Told Robb not to execute Rickard Karstark. That was dumb as hell, yeah execute one of my banner men lords during a war. That wasn’t Catelyn, that was Robb making a dumb ass decision, just like marrying the chick he married. He suck at politica of war and that’s what did it. Ned, Robb and Jon…..they suck at playing politics, they all died doing the right thing ! Instead of being mad at Sansa for lying to Jon, you should be like ‘thank you Sansa for keeping that snake from my baby’.

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    51. Beer Island,

      Good point. Not Cats fault that her son died. She gave him good advice and he ignored it.

      But who can say no to Richard Madden (that’s his name right?)’s beautiful face?

      Now, she did sort of precipitate the whole war taking Tyrion prisoner…

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    52. Shaz,

      On the show, in the books she’s the one who pushed it. Some would say that that was part of the “whitewashing” of Cat (not me, just saying some would). In the books she was focused on the status of the family and making good matches for her daughters.

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    53. I have two thoughts:

      Littlefinger is more than one person, in other words a couple faceless men passing the face around with ravens (explains the jetpacking)

      And Sansa has a scheme to control the Vale because she knows

      whoever manipulates Robyn Arryn owns that shit, and she can do that as well as Littlefinger. So she offs Lord Baelish… results could be mixed.

      After sunday night I think we all learned this could go in any direction so probably best to wait rather than argue Sansa’s loyalty to her (half) brother.

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    54. Demon Monkey,

      It’s a discussion (of sorts) about a fictional character in a book. As Wimsey, said (to paraphrase) it’s a damn book. Because someone dislikes a character’s motives does not necessarily mean that they are either hateful or misogynistic.

      I don’t know the reason for Sansa’s actions, but to me she’s suffered extreme abuse and has the equivalent of PTSD issues. Trust and control are problematic to many with such issues. I think she is a player but not currently as smart of a player as she thinks she is and that MAY or MAY NOT lead to issues down the road. I think the conversation with Davos revealed some of the limits of her knowledge. Her conversation with LF indicated to me that she definitely thinks she has the upper hand but MAY or MAY NOT be underestimating him (as almost every one else has done as well). I don’t know why she misled Jon. Good reasons have been raised on each side. But to say that if you dislike her actions, you are hateful or misogynistic seems to me to create a false dichotomy in some cases.

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    55. Kamali,

      Man, I want to draw little hearts around this comment. But for now, I’ll just nod vigorously in agreement. Except for the part about being shocked that people aren’t feeling Sansa this season. That’s the least surprising thing in the world, honestly. A lot of ASoIaF/GoT fans feel superior about enjoying a fantasy series with complex characterizations and without black and white morality. But as soon as certain characters step into the morally gray area or stray from their expected roles or, God forbid, make terrible but not malicious mistakes like poor Bran did in The Door, they smack them on the back of the hand with a ruler and scold them, like “No! You’re not allowed to do this! And if you’re doing this, you suck!” Which is kind of missing the point of a whole host of characters, honestly.

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    56. Darkrobin,

      Maybe not “whitewashing” but rather “modernizing”.

      Because that is what noble women did. They tried to make good marriages for their children. It was their job. But we would see that as too feminine or petty because we don’t really get the political import. It isn’t about romance like poor child Sansa thought.

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    57. When Jon forms an alliance with Ramsay in winterfell to fight the white walkers, Sansa will flip out and go with littlefinger hence the scene in the snow. She will abandon her starkness take the vale army and move south to take everything cersei holds dear. The whole concept of the story is about how pointless the wars of men are, and I think anyone forming a legitimate alliance with ramsay knowing what he is would be a perfect way of showing how important it is to unite against the undead. I’d say thats learning a lot about Jon’s character. The man who made peace with the biggest shit in Westeros.

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    58. Darkrobin,

      Maybe I didn’t express myself as clearly as I could have, but I want to make clear that I don’t think that objecting to Sansa’s actions because you doubt her motives makes you misogynistic.

      Someone else (above) said it better when they argued that the comments decrying Sansa’s “betrayal” of Jon (which is what I am talking about) were coming from a very Jon-centric point of view, where everything that Sansa does is perceived only in relation to him, not her. That is how I see these comments about Sansa’s “betrayal”: As coming from a point of view where only Jon and his needs, motives, etc. matter and Sansa is a secondary character who is basically subservient to him. Prioritizing him over her like that is actually anti-feminist. At the same time, I admit that you could just hate her for whatever stupid reason, but those reasons are likely motivated by the same idea: that the male hero is the only one that matters and the women characters around him are just supporting his role.

      I don’t think that it means the people who say those things are women-haters (misogynists), but rather that they don’t see how prioritizing Jon over Sansa is anti-feminist (another synonym for mysogynist). My comment was too reactive, especially since I hoped to open up their point of view rather than to offend them.

      I appreciate your comment. I wasn’t clear and I hope I am being clear now.

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    59. Darkrobin,

      Oh, and I wanted to add that we haven’t seen PTSD in Sansa. At least not this season. She has been affected, but it seems to have only made her stronger. Some critics have said that in order to be responsible with her character we should see these emotional effects, but I understand that we haven’t. There is no time in the sprawling narrative that is GOT and it might also make her look weak.

      I suppose there is still time to see that. Maybe when she goes back to Winterfell.

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    60. Nadia,

      To me it seems far more about her not trusting Littlefinger. In the same way she knows she couldn’t trust him not to trade her to the Boltons for a powerplay, she has every reason to believe having his army around at a sensitive time could be a disaster if he suddenly decided it was to his advantage to swap sides.

      Keeping the info from Jon is unfortunate, but fair if she’s worried the others might trust Littlefinger just for greater #s. Only she has first hand experienced just how manipulative and untrustworthy he is.

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    61. As far as Sansa’s motives, generalized distrust is an understandable place for the character to be (her last family reunion led to her almost getting thrown out the Moon Door), though the vagueness of the Starks’ political situation makes it a bit hard for me to discern what exactly she’s asserting (e.g., there’s been no talk of who would end up the nominal leader if they do take back Winterfell; at the meeting they were kind of talking in a way that obliquely suggests the others think it’s Jon, but who knows?).

      In terms of predictions, I’m still skeptical that Littlefinger is going to be dealt with this season. It looks to me more like they’re setting up him worming his way back into a position of influence.

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    62. Demon Monkey,

      But we have seen the emotional effects of her ordeal. Just because she’s not a quivering, sobbing wreck (like I would be) or suffering PSTD flashbacks doesn’t mean she’s not affected. And honestly, for all the crap the show copped last season for Sansa’s rape and supposedly making it all about Theon, I have to say that they’re dealing with the aftermath marvelously.

      That scene where Sansa confronts Littlefinger was masterful. It gives me chills just remembering it. Women — in the past and present — are often expected to keep their pain to themselves, in order to keep the people around them from feeling uncomfortable. There’s a pervasive culture of silence and shame around rape that persists even today. But Sansa went, “Fuck that,” and made Littlefinger listen to what Ramsay did to her. She made him acknowledge his part in her suffering, and refused to let him off the hook.

      I still wish the show hadn’t taken the turn it did with Sansa in season five, but since it did, I’m really pleased that they gave Sansa the opportunity to voice her pain and her rage. That’s momentous for the character, who has thus far survived by keeping her head down and keeping silent about everything she thinks and feels. And on a meta level, it’s also momentous for the show, to give this scene to such an important character, after five seasons of cheap rape drama and rape as a background setting. I hope they keep it up. I’m not holding my breath though.

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    63. Sean C.,

      I agree on LF. Filming spoilers aside, I really don’t think Sansa is “dealing” with him in any permanent way, ie I don’t think she’s going to turn around and kill him this season. In fact, I’d wager by the end they’re allies and he retains a lot of power. Many of the people defending Sansa’s actions are in part with this idea that she’ll “deal” with him, but I wonder if it’s going to be in this great redemptive way that people imagine or hope.

      It will be interesting if he’s there when R+L is revealed though. After all, he’s the only character we’ve seen express clear doubt on that abduction story, and to Sansa no less.

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    64. Nadia,

      I totally disagree. After rewatching one of the season trailer where she says all I think about is what been taken from me, listen to her words and the following clips. He’s toast

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    65. Nadia:
      It will be interesting if he’s there when R+L is revealed though. After all, he’s the only character we’ve seen express clear doubt on that abduction story, and to Sansa no less.

      On that point, I think there’s been a lot of conflation of two different issues. Littlefinger’s look seemed to indicate he was skeptical of the story that Lyanna was kidnapped. But a lot of people make the further inference from that that he knows or suspects Jon’s parentage, which is not only not automatic, it’s not even necessary to believe Lyanna wasn’t abducted. As Sansa said, the common belief is that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped — people could believe that and still suspect Jon was Lyanna’s son; just like they could believe Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar and not suspect Jon’s origin. In Baelish’s case, the idea of Ned cheating on his wife is, in my view, too personally satisfying for him to disbelieve it.

      I don’t doubt that Sansa will bring down Littlefinger in the end, but I’m dubious that it will be this season. The writing of Sansa as an “independent” operator thus far, beginning in 408, has kind of been trying to have its cake and eat it too in that she’s supposedly acting on her own initiative, but she still ends up doing basically whatever fits with Littlefinger’s plans. She rejected him in 605, but her current goal of defeating the Boltons is what he wants her to do anyway, and dramatically speaking her turning down the Vale army is probably going to be revisited later, by the laws of dramatic structure.

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    66. selena,

      Seriously? I am remembering a scene where Sansa went to Cersei crying because her father was going to make her leave Kings Landing. If that didn’t happen, why do so many people think she betrayed Ned? (and if I am wrong, my apologies. But I recently did a rewatch of the whole series and I still remember seeing that)

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    67. People are saying that Sansa doesn’t trust LF.. Yet she immediately trusted his word about the blackfish – which I think is bull shit and he was lying

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    68. Dee,

      that’s why D&D say he still has a hold over her, whether she realizes it or not, and the seeds he plants in her mind do work for him

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    69. Nadia,

      That’s my guess too, that Littlefinger and Sansa will end up allies again after he aids her in retaking Winterfell from Ramsay. And that would be such a terrific conflict for the next season, with Littlefinger stirring shit in the North.

      That said, there is no way Sansa’s ever going to go back to trusting him again. His influence over her is enormous and cannot be overstated, and it may be that she will continue to model herself after the example he set for her. But she sees him with clearer eyes now, and if she enters into an alliance with him, it will be with a better knowledge of who he really is. And that will lead to a definite shift in their dynamic. I can’t wait to see how it plays out.

      Speculation time: it would be too satisfying to see Ramsay die screaming at the hands of a Stark, so my guess is, while Jon defeats him, Littlefinger’s ultimately going to be the one who does away with him, because that’s just the kind of thing the show likes to do. Ramsay already stole Roose’s death from the Starks. I bet Littlefinger does the same with Ramsay, for imperiling his hold over Sansa.

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    70. Sean C.,

      She is not doing what LF wants her to do. She wants to bring down the Boltons. Her goals and his are just the same at the moment. The only thing is whether she sees his end goal. Because by now she knows, he does nothing for anyone but himself. People are acting like LF is some psychic who can’t be bested. He has shared a lot with Sansa and people are still taking her for some dim wit who still believes on chivalry, that thought Joffrey was the best thing ever

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    71. ash,

      People are just conflating book and show canon and convincing themselves that something that happened in the book happened in the show too. There was a scene where Sansa protested to Ned that she didn’t want to leave King’s Landing, and another scene afterwards where Cersei makes Sansa write a letter to Robb, but she never ratted Ned out. Watch the first season again. No such scene exists.

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    72. Dee,

      This. I feel all the good work she did by confronting LF about her ordeal was undone by how she so bought whatever he had to say.

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    73. ash:
      selena,

      Seriously? I am remembering a scene where Sansa went to Cersei crying because her father was going to make her leave Kings Landing. If that didn’t happen, why do so many people think she betrayed Ned? (and if I am wrong, my apologies. But I recently did a rewatch of the whole series and I still remember seeing that)

      Which episode was that?

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    74. Beer Island,

      The problem is Sansa’s plan with the Tully’s is bound to fail and based on what we know about what happens in the battle, Sansa will have to go back to LF to get the Vale army. How could she possibly best him in this case? I don’t think there is time this season for Sansa to go behind LF’s back and work on the Vale Lords herself. She will be busy rallying the North. It looks like this season atleast, it’s LF who comes out on top.

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    75. ghost of winterfell</

      Yes and that's expected. She hasn't learned enough yet. I was thinking, why would he tell her that. Black fish is under siege plus the Tully forces is not that big. You can see he was surprised when he saw Brienne. He told her that to remove Brienne from the equation, he knew Sansa would send her to RR. I still think she will out wit him.

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    76. Dee,

      She doesn’t trust him. That doesn’t mean he can’t influence her still. Littlefinger has loomed large in her life since she left King’s Landing (and before that even). He’s deliberately isolated her for a long time, making it so that he’s practically the only person of importance in her life. It’s classic predatory behavior, and it’s not something a person can escape easily, even when they know better than to trust the other person.

      That, by the way, is why I’m certain Sansa will be doing away with Littlefinger before the end. Whether or not she survives to the very end of the story is irrelevant, but there has to be a resolution to their story, and that resolution isn’t going to be, “And Littlefinger completely brainwashes Sansa and becomes king of the ashes after the ice zombie apocalypse.” Littlefinger is the antagonist in Sansa’s story. And even in GRRM’s world, antagonists still get their due, in time.

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    77. ghost of winterfell,

      I remember one scene with LF and Sansa in the Vale and she said ‘I know what you want’. If all else fail she will summon her inner Cat and LF will melt. That’s the trump card.

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    78. Sam,

      I can see how many people view her actions this way but I would like to point out that we didn’t see Sansa’s answer (to Brienne)…therefore we don’t know if she possibly went and told Jon the truth…the show may be trying to lead us to thinking that these interactions do indeed mirror Jon and Cat’s relationship and that’s when they’ll surprise us…Because if we get a recycled theme seeing the Starks doing the same thing again that would be extremely poor writing. Sansa is Littlefinger’s prodigy…They have spent months and months together. Every scene between the two was Littlefinger explaining the game to Sansa, teaching her how to keep her enemies off guard….I hope what we’ll see is that Sansa has learned how to play the game and that she’ll outplay her teacher. But I agree her actions had me totally worried and a little perplexed..But Sansa knows how Littlefinger operates…she knows that he only gives so much information to string someone in (like her marriage to Ramsey) and then let’s them hang

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    79. Beer Island,

      I think so too. It’s quite obvious that Sansa will be the responsible for LF’s downfall in both books and show.But it won’t happen till S7 I guess. And who knows how much damage he will inflict till then 🙁 .

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    80. Dee:
      You guys know from filming spoilers what happens in the battle ???
      Ughhhh
      Without spoiling is it good or bad lol

      The way I understand it, both.

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    81. Dee:
      You guys know from filming spoilers what happens in the battle ???
      Ughhhh
      Without spoiling is it good or bad lol

      lol Tell you what happens without spoiling it?

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    82. Oh! And. More importantly. I hope that some enterprising writer is penning a romcom starring Hivju and Christie already. Playing as close a facsimile of Tormund and Brienne as possible without triggering HBO’s copyright.

      Hell, HBO should make it. A spin-off wilding romcom. We even already have the title: “Tormienne”.

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    83. I don’t understand the issue with Sansa asserting herself? I’m glad she’s not sitting meekly at the table twiddling her thumbs as everyone around her is strategizing and discussing what their next move should be. Sansa doesn’t have to be right about everything (clearly Davos pointed out some things she hadn’t considered), but that’s the whole point of that entire conversation. Usually in a meeting like this the characters go back and forth and sometimes they give each other attitude because the stakes are high, why is this any different? Why is Sansa so much more horrible than any of the other characters who have done this in the past?

      People always wanted Sansa to “do more” and be more “bad ass” but also she’s not allowed to be complicated or “wrong” either. Just one note badassness! How dreadfully boring.

      After a rewatch and reading Sophie’s interview I have to agree with those who think that Sansa didn’t tell Jon about LF because she doesn’t want to use LF army, at least not if she can help it. She’d rather take back the North on her own with Jon. Sansa knows that dealings with LF aren’t always as cut and dry as they seem, he’s always scheming and doing some underhanded stuff. If she mentions LF to Jon, he might be very tempted to accept his help. I still don’t think lying to Jon is a good move, but I liked what Sophie had to say about Sansa’s trust issues. Also Jon and Sansa’s reunion can’t be all smooth sailing either, there has to be some tension and this will probably be a point of contention for them in the future.

      Also to those who said that Sansa being around the Lannisters and LF has changed her, I agree. She’s taken up some of their ways. Her sewing Stark clothes for her and Jon feels like the Lannister’s “it’s us against the world and anyone who isn’t us is our enemy” mentality. Or it could just be a way to get people behind her and Jon when they recruit houses to join them against Ramsay.

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    84. Criterion,

      We are allowed to dislike a character, and in this case there might end up being a vey good reason. But even if not, just as in real life, there are those we click with and those we don’t. And if we could only discuss the characters we like that would be such a stifled and artificial atmosphere that nobody would want to be a part of.

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    85. Yaga,

      Sansa is the best written character so far this season. I only wish they had written something for Jon too. Still, Sansa this season is awesome.

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    86. Sam,

      Holy shit! This is not the books! Not the books! Not the books! Not the books! Why do people do that? So annoying to use the books to justify you show thoughts.

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    87. I like Sansa for the pretty girl who makes dresses and loves lemon cakes. She is not a bright girl or a fighter so for myself I have a hard time believing she will outwit anyone and become a true player, I hope she proves me wrong

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    88. Demon Monkey:
      Darkrobin,

      Oh, and I wanted to add that we haven’t seen PTSD in Sansa. At least not this season. She has been affected, but it seems to have only made her stronger.

      Oh, she is definitely affected, and also showing PTSD, in my opinion and experience. Her trust issues, detachment and limited range of emotions are classic PTSD symptoms. She might be having dreams on what happened with Ramsay off screen, without us knowing it (yet). Most importantly, when she tells LF she is feeling what Ramsay did to her in her body, it could be somatized pain, rather than pain from wounds. She hasn’t really had a “tricker experience” to set the kind of panic attack commonly associated with PTSD in motion, but I’m fully expecting this to happen if she takes Winterfell and especially confronts Ramsay.

      Overall, as someone who is family to a person with a sever case of PTSD leading to major depression (and may have a genetic predisposal myself), I’ve seen many of the behavioral patterns Sansa is currently showing first hand, and Sophie Turner is depicting them brilliantly.

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    89. Lord Allen Conway:
      Sam,

      Holy shit! This is not the books! Not the books! Not the books! Not the books! Why do people do that? So annoying to use the books to justify you show thoughts.

      Wait, what did I do? We’re not allowed to mention the books on this site anymore? Sorry, I didn’t get the memo. 🙂 All I was saying was that the quotes of D&D (Sansa not being purely Stark) and Sophie (Sansa not having the Stark way about her anymore) may be also be gleaned from the books in the way that she keeps on reminding herself she’s no longer Sansa Stark. Jeez.

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    90. Kamali,

      There’s a lot of times that i really want to stop reading comment section but perfectly measured and thoughtful comments like yours that truly reflects my own feelings makes me change my mind. Kudos to you my fellow watcher.

      People who already made up their mind about her won’t be able to understand her and what she decides or what she says and this is a sad fact that that is also true about other characters too.

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    91. Kamali,

      This! All of this

      I love it

      Any comments I have made regarding Sansa were only that I didn’t want more drama for the Starks – just coming from some decisions she made or will make .
      But I’ve said this a million times I am loving Sansa and everything she has done this season

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    92. Talvivaara,
      This is a great post, and I want to second what you stated here about PTSD.

      Sam,
      It’s not that books aren’t allowed. It’s just that too many times, people use them to say things that are no longer applicable to the characters on the show. It’s a fine line to tread, so it’s best to leave them out altogether.

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    93. Yaga:

      Sam,
      It’s not that books aren’t allowed. It’s just that too many times, people use them to say things that are no longer applicable to the characters on the show. It’s a fine line to tread, so it’s best to leave them out altogether.

      Yeah, I’ve seen those too that’s why I thought it was okay. I was just linking the TV show to the book, not disputing or arguing against the TV show because of the books (which I notice some do here). Hayyy. I’m just surprised at how people can be too sensitive sometimes.

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    94. Demon Monkey,

      Prioritizing Jon over Sansa can not be taken as a male vs. female thing in and of itself unless everything else is equal. (I’m talking in terms of rational everyday folks like the majority, I know there are truly mysoginistic people out there but they are fringe and I haven’t come across them here) Personality, character development, story line and the choices made therein etc. and there’s no way it could be. Or is who we root for supposed to be tied in to who suffered the most? Sansa suffered, Jon suffered, but Sansa is a woman and therefore deserving of more sympathy, and thus, that sympathy should over shadow our previous and current attachment to another long-suffering main character? No, sympathy and fondness are two different things.

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    95. I admit to not really being as emotionally invested in all characters as many are because I just don’t have a sustainable imagination, emotional stamina or whatever it is, to maintain thinking quite so deeply. I just tend to go with my knee-jerk reactions much of the time now. So I hope nobody take offense if I don’t love their favorite or even don’t hate the bad guys with a passion. Maybe I’ve become desensitized by all the turmoil and ups and downs, or even burnt out on it? God I hope not cause I want to stay in this world a bit longer. Even Jon Snow whom I have loved (it is known) is becoming more of a non-entity right now 🙁

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    96. Demon Monkey,

      didi sansa even told jon about the abuse?…no he is not selfish he have a PTSD that sansa ignore by her sesire of vengence jon is a soldier and like said he kill mentors,good men,wildlings and even child…jon is absolutly oblivious to sansa/baelish deal,theon etc he just have faith in her….he still follow her depite his little PTSD jon just don’t have a clue of what’s going on

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    97. Demon Monkey,

      let’s be honest jon was a more centric character than sansa in 5 last season she didn’t have same scree time than she have in this one the jon and sansa storyline came mixing each other i don’t think people said “BETRAY JON” have “anti-feminist” attention personally i would be pissed if someone told that shit to me its that feminist arguement who sees oppression everywhere (,not looking at you) people just watch sansa in 5 season doing nothing….listen,follow,run jon have major screen time along with dany fighting giant,ice zombie, fighting the big menace of the story so anybody will see as a more centric character this season the same happen last season with tyrion and dany tyrion became a bit of supportive character to her…so i think people need time to undertand jon had that “hero persona” since season 1….it is just logical but please don’t see that as “anti-feminist”

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    98. Guys do you think we will get

      Lady stoneheart in the next episode? I bet that we will get LSH in the next 2 episodes. If it isn’t episode 6 than it will be episode 7.

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    99. Arguments on Sansa’s motivation aside. I wanna know how Sansa and Brienne were able to leave Castle Black without anyone being aware and notifying someone, you know like Jon former/current Lord Commander. Particularly after receiving a mysterious letter. And being an heir to Winterfell.

      With everything going, White Walkers and Ramsey spring to mind. Shouldn’t they be more vigilant.

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    100. Kamali:
      I am shocked some people aren’t feeling Sansa this season. She is perhaps my FAVORITE character this season and almost every scene of hers this year has been a highpoint of the episode.

      Some people are taken back that she is acting differently this season, but it makes perfect sense. Sansa has been holding back her emotions for years, even Tyrion recognized that she was always saying one thing, but holding in how she really felt. Now that she finally is in a place of safety she can tell everyone around her what this young woman that has been abused for five seasons really feels and thinks. She has been a little firecracker for awhile now, she called Joffrey a coward to his face in subtle ways, she called Ramsay a bastard to get under his skin, and told Miranda off to show that she wasn’t afraid (even if she was), but she always had to pick and choose her battles, mostly choosing to hide behind the persona of a dumb little girl with nothing to say. But now she doesn’t have hide that side of her. She is in position to play the game just like she saw from Tyrion, Littlefinger, Cersei, and Margery. She’s still a little misguided, Davos pointed that out when critiquing that her knowledge and trust in Northern houses might still be idealistic, but it’s perfectly in character for her to not be a perfect strategist right now. And it’s interesting. How would an angry young woman react in this situation?

      I also am happy that she lied to Jon, it makes her more interesting. She could just be his lapdog that gives him every piece of herself so he can go make things better but her abuse has formed an agency that she guards and keeps closely, and motivations that might not directly align with everyone else, even those that support her. I can see a cooperative rivalry developing between her and Jon, and that would make for an awesome development of their relationship, rather than them being the best of friends that never hide anything and always work at achieving their goals in perfect harmony.

      Sansa learned bits and pieces from Cersei, and Margery, and Lady Olenna, and The Hound, and Tyrion, and Littlefinger, and took abuse from Ramsay, and Joffrey, and Cersei. It would frankly be out of character for her to come out of that with a perfectly black and white view of the world that doesn’t involve manipulating people, bending the truth, and being a lot more aggressive to get what you want accomplished. She might fail in some respects, but she’s going to fail on her own agency, and that is good drama to watch.

      Of all of the criticism of this season, THAT is the one thing I disagree with 1000%. I’m all on board for what they have done with her character as a logical progression from the first 5 seasons.

      Excellently put- I totally agree:)

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    101. ygritte:
      Demon Monkey,

      Prioritizing Jon over Sansa can not be taken as a male vs. female thing in and of itself unless everything else is equal. (I’m talking in terms of rational everyday folks like the majority, I know there are truly mysoginistic people out there but they are fringe and I haven’t come across them here) Personality, character development, story line and the choices made therein etc. and there’s no way it could be. Or is who we root for supposed to be tied in to who suffered the most? Sansa suffered, Jon suffered, but Sansa is a woman and therefore deserving of more sympathy, and thus, that sympathy should over shadow our previous and current attachment to another long-suffering main character? No, sympathy and fondness are two different things.

      I think what happens on chats like this is when one posts “I don’t like what X character did to my fave Y character” the fan of X character then reacts and after a few exchanges, it becomes about something bigger. For instance, somebody here expressed not liking Sansa lying to Jon. Some took it as not appreciating that Sansa finally has her own agency and is asserting herself. And then before you know it, it’s about misogynist vs. feminist. It’s even become Sansa vs. Jon. This pains me because I love both! There are hints that the show is building a potential tension between Team Stark (and why not, it makes for great TV). And it looks like the tension is building among fans, too. When all along, the real enemy is Littlefinger! That weasel is going to worm his way into WF and the entire north. I don’t think he’s going down this season. It’s too soon. He’ll probably replace Ramsay (assuming he dies) as the most hated ‘villain’ by season’s end.

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    102. Flayed Potatoes:
      LF knows what he’s doing. That cockroach is coming out of this season winning.

      He’s the master manipulator. We shouldn’t expect anything less. This actually makes him a great villain. He’s already planted the seeds with just a short time with Sansa. He’s spinning, and spinning, and spinning. My only wish is that by the end of the series, Sansa gets to one-up him and kills him.

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    103. Sean C.:

      I don’t doubt that Sansa will bring down Littlefinger in the end, but I’m dubious that it will be this season.

      It may well come next season, but I can just as easily see LFs demise at end of this season, especially seeing as he’s in Winterfell (per the book prophecy). Besides -they need to clear the board as much as possible for the wars to come (especially with only 13-15 more episodes to go).

      Bear in mind that Brienne is meeting with Jaime in ep 7, and her purpose is to recruit Tully forces to Sansa’s aid, which I’m guessing is why (according to reports), they both argue- as he has additional tactical knowledge, not to mention he’s laying siege to the Tullys.

      Now, as Jaime is now the commander of the Lannister forces, it’s not inconceivable that he’s aware of the fact LF has been tasked with bringing Cersei Sansa’s head (for killing their eldest son after all), and has despatched the Vale to do exactly that. So it’s equally conceivable that he’ll share this information with Brienne, as Sansa’s sworn sword (and in order to protect Sansa). In fact that’s likely to be a pretty interesting conversation where they compare notes on what LF has been up to. So my guess is Brienne sends ravens northward immediately to warn her and flees back to Sansa (or at least tries to get back …but let’s not go there!).

      As for the Tullys… LFs parting words emphasise the fact Jon is bastard born- and this makes her pause for thought. She knows that the Tullys would be less likely to fight for Jon due to the history with Cat, and perhaps this is also why she is withholding information from both parties, to ensure this alliance is a success. She even hints at this, in regards to the other Northern houses following her as a Stark(although not particularly well I might add). Finally-she’s wringing her hands in the scene with Jon/Davos- she’s clearly uncomfortable with her actions but knows (or believes) it’s what she has to do to guarantee success (without LFs help).

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    104. Fuchsia:
      Arguments on Sansa’s motivation aside. I wanna know how Sansa and Brienne were able to leave Castle Black without anyone being aware and notifying someone, you know like Jon former/current Lord Commander. Particularly after receiving a mysterious letter. And being an heir to Winterfell.

      With everything going, White Walkers and Ramsey spring to mind. Shouldn’t they be more vigilant.

      This bugged the hell outta me too! I originally suspected this is why Sansa withheld the truth from Jon, as he’d be angry she took such a risk. Now I’m not so sure.

      And I’M gonna wanna know how Brienne will get past Moat Cailin (and the Vale forces) or the Twins, to get to Riverrun and THEN how she explains her actions in freeing Jaime in S2- her ass is on the wanted list!

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    105. Lol what would be crazy is Brienne goes to RR and LS is sitting on the Tully lord seat! Blackfish bring me a rope!

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    106. Well, here are my thoughts concerning Sansa, Jon, and LF.

      Sansa didn’t tell Jon about her meeting with Littlefinger, because she simply couldn’t. Had she told immediately after receiving the letter, Jon would have insisted to go with her and she would lost her only chance to speak with LF openly (and this was absolutely necessary for her). Had she told Jon afterwards, Jon would go on a typical big brother talk – sort of “you shouldn’t go out alone” etc. – which was the last thing Sansa wanted.

      And besides that there is this issue of the Vale army: it’s so tempting to accept the offer, and Sansa can’t be sure that Jon would dare to reject it. However, she feels that accepting LF aid would not be right and, although her decision is based on emotions, I think that it is very very wise.

      Let’s be frank: LF is not interested to have Sansa (and Jon) back in WF. Sansa knows too much and she is hard to control. She demonstrated that in the end of S4 already and (at least in the show) LF decided that after all she was a bad investment. So, he attempted to solve the problem exactly the same way as he did with Ros – he sold Sansa to a sadist expecting that she would die providing him a perfect casus belli to take the North. When Sansa escaped, she became even more dangerous and LF must prevent her meeting with Lord Royce and Sweetrobin at any cost. Therefore I think that if Sansa had accepted his offer, LF would have come late exposing her and Jon to an inevitable defeat.

      Sansa’s refusal puts LF into a very unpleasant situation. He can’t tell the knights of the Vale that she sent him away, so he has to march to WF anyway and hope her anger will fade away. He tries to win her back by giving her information about her great-uncle. No reason to think it was false, because LF still benefits from this reveal: if Sansa asks the Blackfish for aid, he will have to leave the newly reclaimed Riverrun for Freys, Lannisters and LF himself and there’s still hope that he perishes in the battle for the North etc. However, the risk is increasing, because the Blackfish knows the knights of the Vale and may turn them and even Sweetrobin against LF etc. So, I think the setup is that LF goes in ep10 this season and, though his downfall may be delayed, I’m convinced that it will come not due to some elaborate scheming but rather through Sansa’s decision to tell the truth. Brienne’s question is definitely guiding her this way.

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    107. Inga,

      I agree with much of what you said, though I don’t believe Littlefinger has given up on Sansa nor do I think he hopes/expects her to die. He still wants to marry her for control of the North. He does need Jon out of the way though.

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    108. Inga:

      Sansa didn’t tell Jon about her meeting with Littlefinger, because she simply couldn’t. Had she told immediately after receiving the letter, Jon would have insisted to go with her and she would lost her only chance to speak with LF openly (and this was absolutely necessary for her). Had she told Jon afterwards, Jon would go on a typical big brother talk – sort of “you shouldn’t go out alone” etc. – which was the last thing Sansa wanted.

      a) That’s being very patronizing towards Jon. If this attitude of keeping important information from the little women because they would react with their emotions was bandied about, people would be rightly accused of sexism. Jon is very pragmatic and practical. Far so then Ned and Robb. If Sansa told him that LF was not to be trusted, Jon would have listened to her. Besides, Sansa used LF’s info. It’s not like Sansa herself does not trust LF

      b) That’s not at all the type of person Jon is. He likes women who take risks and fight for what they want : Like Arya and Ygritte. He gave his little sister a bloody sword! You think he is going to admonish Sansa for going out?

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    109. Inga,

      I hadn’t considered some of what you said, it just goes to show how brilliant the whole Northern plot is, so many character motivations, it’s going to be so epic. Ep 9 and 10 can’t come sooner enough.

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    110. Beer Island:
      She is not doing what LF wants her to do. She wants to bring down the Boltons. Her goals and his are just the same at the moment. The only thing is whether she sees his end goal. Because by now she knows, he does nothing for anyone but himself. People are acting like LF is some psychic who can’t be bested. He has shared a lot with Sansa and people are still taking her for some dim wit who still believes on chivalry, that thought Joffrey was the best thing ever

      Yeah, she is. She’s fighting the Boltons like he wanted, and once he realized how angry he was he pivoted to getting her to (a) seek out the Tullys and (b) distrust Jon, both of which she immediately did. Moreover, going by both the Inside the Episode and Sophie’s interview, she’s apparently contemplating trying to make use of him, which in every encounter they’ve had has just led to him using her.

      Inga:
      Let’s be frank: LF is not interested to have Sansa (and Jon) back in WF. Sansa knows too much and she is hard to control. She demonstrated that in the end of S4 already and (at least in the show) LF decided that after all she was a bad investment. So, he attempted to solve the problem exactly the same way as he did with Ros – he sold Sansa to a sadist expecting that she would die providing him a perfect casus belli to take the North.

      As the writers have repeatedly said, Littlefinger didn’t know Ramsay was a sadist.

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    111. drogo(N):
      Guys do you think we will get

      IF she’s coming (and I mean IF), then the latter part of this season makes the most sense (probably ep 8 or 10). All the plot pieces are in place with Brienne and Jaime in the RL, the siege of RR, The Freys, TBWB etc. I really see no need to include RR (and building a massive bloody set) or to reintroduce TBWB to the story at this stage unless something big is coming.

      My pet theory here is that Brienne and Pod flee back north to save Sansa (see my earlier post), runs into TBWB and are hung for collaborating with the Lannisters. This could be their end of season climax or even the end of both their arc on the show. Tragically, ironically, and in true GoT style.

      BUT..I’m not so sure we have time for LSH with the number of episodes left..

      I move back and forth over this…and really don’t wanna start another LSH debate.

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    112. Demon Monkey,

      Thanks and I’m sorry that I was a bit heavy-handed. I understand that there are Jon fans and Sansa fans and in the current situation one or the other might be disappointed if they perceive their favorite characters slighted.

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    113. Demon Monkey,

      Agreed. Inartful language. And yours is much better. I like the modernizing aspect. I think many people may not have fully appreciate how Cat’s actions were appropriate for medieval times, but they would come across as uncaring for modern times. Upper-class mothers having little or no contract with their children except for an hour or so a day during tea was common in the Victorian era but many would think of that as displaying poor parental skills these days.

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    114. Sam,

      To be fair yes, yes it would make for great TV. I can see the fandom will be split and fur will fly! But in the end team Jon will come out smelling of (blue winter) roses and team Sansa will emit an aroma of humble pie baking in the oven 🙂

      (totally teasing, don’t hate me Sanfans!)

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    115. Yaga,

      In what regard I say they did? If you are referencing my Cat comments, they were in response to a discussion between two other people regarding whether Ned or Cat argued in favor of going to KL. In season one, the books mattered much more. This was a departure from the book script and I think Demon Monkey said it best that they were modernizing Cat. And I don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of past “discussions” of changes from the book for Cat and others. Yes, they are different. Different stories for different media. If this is not what you are referring to, I apologize. When discussing Sansa, I don’t recall mentioning the books as this is clearly new territory. IMO, you can mention the books without being a book purist. For example, contrasting the show (Mel meets Thoros, sees the resurrected Beric, Mel returns to the Wall in time for Jon’s death vs. book – Mel doesn’t meet Thoros, Mel never leaves the Wall, lead me to believe that she would resurrect Jon without a life being sacrified,) doesn’t mean I think one version is better than the other necessarily.

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    116. Inga,

      Jon has listened to everything Sansa has said so far, so there is no reason to assume that he would go into a big brother patronizing mode if she had been honest about LF.
      Secondly, I don’t see what advantage Sansa gets by refusing LF’s offer if the Vale army now , if she has to go back to him to get the same, as she inevitably will have to.
      I feel LF will have the upper hand by the end of this season, but hopefully this will be reversed in the next one. And hopefully before that, he does not end up dividing Jon and Sansa.

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    117. Beer Island,

      He told her that to remove Brienne from the equation

      Yes, I hadn’t thought of that but given his machiavellian scheming, it makes perfect sense. He is almost always a step or more ahead of everyone else.

      Which is why it is suprising that people are so willing to give him a pass on the marrying Sansa to Ramsey angle. At best he had a callous disregard for her safety as, if nothing else, he left her no knights or other protection, when he left for KL. I understand the secrecy of the Bolton’s angle, but I still harbor some doubts in that regard.

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    118. Demon Monkey:

      In the end, she is going to work with Jon. Her gift made that clear if nothing else has. She will aid him and counsel him, and he will help her by commanding. Monarchy is a family thing, a corporate structure shared between multiple ppl.

      An extremely important point.

      I’m not happy about Sansa withholding information from Jon, but given how traumatic the last few years have been, can we blame her? She’s been entirely “reprogrammed” by her experience–of course she’s not going to trust Jon completely, even if it’s genuinely in her best interest to do so. That she sought him out and has let her guard down at all is impressive, indicating that she’s not lost all of her old self. However frustrating it may be for us to watch, it’s going to be fascinating to see if and how Sansa and Jon work alongside each other and how their relationship develops.

      As a general point, neither of them has the skills and aptitude to take back the North alone. They need each other for it to work, as it goes with any institution. That they love and potentially develop trust in each other only makes it stronger. Lone wolf dies, pack survives!

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    119. Sam,

      the real enemy is Littlefinger

      Exactly that. Now I don’t know if Sansa will ever find out LF’s role in betraying Ned. Without re-watching that episode, I don’t have all the facts, but I recall that there were City Watch men in the room when the knife was pulled. They could tell others in the castle and in the city, etc. (Did Tyrion hold a knife to Ned’s throat in the play Arya watched? That would be quite the coincidence.)

      In fact, I’m surprised that Shae didn’t learn about it and Roz only gave her that vague warning. But I would be shocked that the events didn’t spread throughout the servants in the castle and from there to some in the city. Whether Sansa ever learns, I don’t know. Maybe Jamie (who wasn’t there but likely heard about it once he returned) will mention to Brienne. Dont’ know. If we see that scene in a “previous on GoT” lead-in, then we will know.

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    120. Darkrobin:
      Which is why it is suprising that people are so willing to give him a pass on the marrying Sansa to Ramsey angle.At best he had a callous disregard for her safety as, if nothing else, he left her no knights or other protection, when he left for KL.I understand the secrecy of the Bolton’s angle, but I still harbor some doubts in that regard.

      Who exactly is giving him a pass on that?

      Darkrobin:
      Exactly that.Now I don’t know if Sansa will ever find out LF’s role in betraying Ned.Without re-watching that episode, I don’t have all the facts, but I recall that there were City Watch men in the room when the knife was pulled.They could tell others in the castle and in the city, etc.(Did Tyrion hold a knife to Ned’s throat in the play Arya watched?That would be quite the coincidence.)

      In fact, I’m surprised that Shae didn’t learn about it and Roz only gave her that vague warning.But I would be shocked that the events didn’t spread throughout the servants in the castle and from there to some in the city.Whether Sansa ever learns, I don’t know.Maybe Jamie (who wasn’t there but likely heard about it once he returned) will mention to Brienne.Dont’ know.If we see that scene in a “previous on GoT” lead-in, then we will know.

      If Sansa is going to learn about that from a third party, the most viable character would, to my mind, be the Hound, who was present during that scene.

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    121. Nadia:
      Everyone already knows what I think of Sansa right now, which is not tremendously positive. Still I’m hoping like anything I’m wrong, because it would indeed be painful to finally have 2 Starks back and already have one keeping the other in the dark, perhaps dangerously so.

      “Taking her own path” doesn’t sound terribly like working with Jon does it?

      Howwww could they delete that scene now with Brienne leaving Tormund for the Riverlands?! We needed something to hold us over.

      I was diagnosed with PTSD and her actions don’t surprise me at all. Until you’ve been through some really traumatic events in your life you have no idea how you will react and I see her reactions being spot on. She’s not manipulating, she’s drawing herself up and relying on no one but herself. I understand that completely. Enough said, just hoping you’d take another look at it but if you’ve never been there you may never get it.
      Sorry, don’t mean to keep this conversation going.

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    122. ygrittE: totally teasing, don’t hate me Sanfans!

      Too late. Already on the list.

      And I don’t think the writers will make only one character screw up, least of all Sansa. Robb and Cat had both parts in their downfall. There is a possibility of Jon doing something stupid because of Ramsay teasing him. He’s a Stark man, after all. So, I am quite certain that Jon will have to join Sansa in the baking when all is said and done.

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    123. Sorry we all know nothing only what we are showed .and I only believe half of what I see. None of what I hear. Books and show are the same to me. Just read and interpreted differently .as it is everywhere .but u can’t talk about one without the other saying otherwise sounds dumb.

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    124. Darkrobin:
      Sam,

      the real enemy is Littlefinger

      Exactly that.Now I don’t know if Sansa will ever find out LF’s role in betraying Ned.Without re-watching that episode, I don’t have all the facts, but I recall that there were City Watch men in the room when the knife was pulled.They could tell others in the castle and in the city, etc.(Did Tyrion hold a knife to Ned’s throat in the play Arya watched?That would be quite the coincidence.)

      In fact, I’m surprised that Shae didn’t learn about it and Roz only gave her that vague warning.But I would be shocked that the events didn’t spread throughout the servants in the castle and from there to some in the city.Whether Sansa ever learns, I don’t know.Maybe Jamie (who wasn’t there but likely heard about it once he returned) will mention to Brienne.Dont’ know.If we see that scene in a “previous on GoT” lead-in, then we will know.

      I don’t think she needs to know that. All she needs to discover is that LF has been dispatched by Cersei to bring the North to its knees with the Valemen, along with Sansas head in return for the wardenship of the North.

      Which she can easily hear from Brienne (courtesy of her meeting with Jaime in Riverrun soon).

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    125. I love Sansa, but I have to say, I’m not seeing a leader in her this season. I’m seeing an angry and wounded girl that is acting out of her pain. She is rushing ahead blindly without thinking. She did it with Baelish in that confrontation. If she were really a player, then she would have accepted the Vale Forces first, defeated Ramsay, and then scolded him for his betrayal and sent him on his way. Instead of coming to Baelish as a confident woman, she came to him wounded little girl, just like she has done in the past. And Lo and Behold, she takes his advice and runs with it, just like she’s done in the past. D&D hit the nail on the head. That man still has hold over her. If she thinks that she is over Baelish, then she is lying to herself. She proved (at least to me) that she is by no means over him. Baelish is her dirty little secret that she is keeping, even from herself.

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    126. Dee,

      Well who knows what a heart wants. I’m just trying to justify her silly actions.but why do u think that?seems the other whole series is her looking for love in all the wrong places.

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    127. ghost of winterfell:
      Yaga,

      Sansa is the best written character so far this season. I only wish they had written something for Jon too. Still, Sansa this season is awesome.

      I think this hits the nail on the head. Some are frustrated (not you obviously) that Sansa had a bigger role than Jon in this episode. And really since they reunited. And some ppl want Jon to have the bigger role. Hence the frustration. I’m sure there are other factors but this Is the underlying problem IMO.

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    128. Wylie:
      Elizabeth,
      Glad you spoke up! ?

      I don’t normally tell people I suffer from PTSD, but I couldn’t stand it any longer. I had so much empathy for Sansa and I understand why she did what did because I’ve BEEN THERE DONE THAT….I get it.
      Sorry, but thank you for letting me know you didn’t mind my sharing.

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    129. Sansa well have to do something with some redeeming .she’s done nothing so far .I’d like for her to have a happy ending,but I’m afraid the lil Ramsey inside her Will break or male her.a baby born from rap sounds so terrible, but if sansa will be good at anything it would be motherhood.

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    130. Nadia:
      I’m so so curious how and when Jon will find out about R+L. It sounds like episode 10, but that sounds like after Bastard Bowl?

      Based on Kit saying one episode really explores his character, I wonder if it’s that episode AFTER the battle?

      We’ll know Sunday because it will either be Episode 6 (Blood of My Blood!) or 10.

      As for speculation, I could see 6 being the latter half of the ToJ scene, but we may not get much more than “promise me,” the pool of blood, and perhaps Baby Jon, making it obvious that Lyanna is his mother and perhaps obvious that Rhaegar is his father since we’ll likely be reminded in the previously-on how Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and Ned went to find her.

      And then Episode 10, after the battle has finished, may show us Jon’s legitimacy. Bran visits the Tourney at Harrenhal (in my dreams!) to show the romance between the Silver Prince and the Knight of the Laughing Tree. And then Bran will watch Young Ned hide the proof of the royal marriage and birth of a prince within Lyanna’s crypt, which is why he’d insisted on burying his sister in the place meant for only Kings and Wardens of the North. And then we’ll jump to Kit fulfilling his greenseeing dream of running around in an empty Winterfell in the wake of the Battle of the Bastards and then going down into the crypts, searching for something or someone, only to find his regal destiny.

      Jon to Sam in GoT Pgs. 258-259:
      I’m walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don’t even know who I’m looking for [Rickon?!?!]. Most nights it’s my father, but sometimes it’s Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle….

      The castle is always empty. Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream. That’s when I always wake.

      Does he “know” he has to go down there because Bran is whispering to him? Warging him? Otherwise pushing him?

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    131. Ginevra,

      It would make no sense for Ned to take proof of Lyanna’s marriage/Jon’s birth back to Winterfell. His whole desire is to keep that a secret.

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    132. Maybe that’s what she needs to give her meaning she’s had nothing that is truly hers.a babe fits her.I hate it that its a Lil ram.grrm is so awfully beautiful with his shit its captivating.

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    133. I hate lil finger .and hate to think of them together but as a father of a girl I know she will do as she does I can only guide her towards a good life but its up to her to make the best of it.

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    134. Fuchsia,

      oh gosh I don’t remember, but it was near the one when he was put in the dungeon. Thats fine tho, several people said it didn’t exist so there we are. Not important. I just get tired of Sansa hate for something she did when she was much younger and reacting as a child raised as a princess….

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    135. Darkrobin,

      LF can’t be sure that Sansa sends Brienne to Riverrun – she could send anyone else – Davos for example. I think LF simply seeks to lure the Blackfish to the North to regain control over the Riverlands.

      And regarding what the writers said about LF knowing nothing… well, they said that Jon was not coming back too, but the show is clearly giving us hints. Check LF’s sexposition, Roz in “the Climb”, Sansa’s scene from S4 where she said to LF “I know what you want”, and Osha’s death scene where she said exactly the same to Ramsay. If it’s not a foreshadowing, then I don’t know what is and Sansa may easily end up killed by LF, though I hope that he will fail.

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    136. Dylanstargaryian,

      Okay, I’m sorry, but this is hilarious. Are you telling me that Sansa Stark is actually in love with Petyr Baelish? I feel like I might break a rib laughing. Have you ever seen their kisses? He’s the one who initiates kisses with her; she never returns it and never looks anything close to enthusiastic about it. She endures them, as she endures everything in the shit show that is her life. At this point, I’m pretty sure Sansa feels like she’s done with men altogether. And wow, now she might find meaning in her life by having the baby of her rapist, instead of taking her home and her brother back from that monster, like she’s actually trying to do? I feel like I’ve taken a time machine back to the 1930s or something. That’s some seriously regressive sexual politics right there, I almost can’t believe someone in this day and age typed it. It’s amazing and baffling at the same time.

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    137. Inga:
      And regarding what the writers said about LF knowing nothing… well, they said that Jon was not coming back too, but the show is clearly giving us hints.

      I’m not seeing how any of those things you list are hints that he knew. And while they lied about Jon, that’s really not an equivalent to this; there’s no reason to lie about it, and moreover, no means whereby the truth would be exposed other than Littlefinger saying he knew, which he would never do.

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    138. nigglesnush,

      Thank u we could use a little 1930s.like I said as a father she’s like a daughter to me and I will never understand women.glad u do. But u most be the future I’m in the past where I like.and they built sansa to be mother. So obvious.

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    139. Dylanstargaryian,

      Sansa’s known Littlefinger for years before she ever met Ramsay, and she’s shown no romantic or sexual interest in him at any point. Her being “broken” by Ramsay is completely irrelevant to the matter.

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    140. I’m gonna go ahead and disagree with those saying that Littlefinger is a master manipulator. He is a good one, one of the best, even. But that doesn’t mean he’s never made a mistake, or will make mistakes in the future.

      Recall the scene in Season 2, when he claims to Cersei that “knowledge is power,” and she has her guards seize him and hold a blade to his throat. He clearly was overconfident at having duped Ned Stark and thought he could indirectly threaten Cersei with the truth of her incest. He misjudged his security and very nearly paid for it dearly.

      He will make a similar mistake with Sansa, it’s only a matter of time. That she took his word on The Blackfish and took to heart his comments on her “half brother” don’t show that she still trusts him. It only shows that he still has the ability to influence and manipulate her.

      I don’t really know what the big to do about Sansa lying to Jon is. She would’ve said that lie to anyone, because she knows that if she mentions Littlefinger and his Vale army, she’ll be pressured into accepting their aid. And more than anyone in that room, she knows that being beholden to Petyr Baelish is not a good place to be. She lied to Jon because he was the one that asked the question, and she went on to confirm her trust in Jon to Brienne AND give him a heartfelt gift that basically establishes them as equals in this undertaking. People who think she is betraying Jon are simply seeing things that aren’t there, probably due to never liking Sansa to begin with.

      But seriously, Sansa’s arc has been outstanding this season. If you aren’t digging her character development, it’s your loss.

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    141. And I never said she couldn’t do both. She could be mother and a hero,that would be great in a perfect world. She’s not in Kansas. What ever you mean I care less.this show is giving us all these strong women.what’s so bad about one just being a mother do our kids not deserve it?

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    142. Dylanstargaryian,

      Thank u we could use a little 1930s.like I said as a father…

      Holy crap, you did not just say that unironically. I am stunned. You know what, I’m going to have to disengage. Because imagining you as an actual father, passing on your POV of women to your daughter is just going to break my brain.

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    143. Inga,

      I think he knows Sansa will send her because Sansa didn’t bring anyone else to the meeting. He’s figured out that she doesn’t want Jon to know, otherwise she’d have brought more people for protection. Brienne is the only person who witnessed the meeting, so if Sansa takes the bait she’ll will send Brienne.

      Throughout the show LF has been focused on emotionally isolating Sansa from people she can trust, so she will only have him to rely on. Now she’s out of his hands and under another man’s protection, and he can’t let that happen. So he’ll isolate her from Brienne (who he knows is devoted to her via Cat), and he’ll try and isolate her from Jon by planting the half-brother seed. He wants to make her believe that Jon has power because of his army and might be a threat to her, preying on Sansa’s own insecurities and trauma (which she revealed in that same scene). LF is disgusting.

      To LF, Sansa is like Cat 2.0 and part of his hatred for the Starks is his belief that Brandon/Ned stole Cat from him. Now he thinks that Sansa/Cat 2.0 will be taken from him by Jon/Ned 2.0.

      Hopefully, Sansa figures him out. She was working on Jon’s coat before she met LF (see the opening scene), so imo her gift isn’t to keep him in the dark. They both need to look their best and impress the lords.

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    144. nigglesnush:
      Dylanstargaryian,

      Okay, I’m sorry, but this is hilarious. Are you telling me that Sansa Stark is actually in love with Petyr Baelish? I feel like I might break a rib laughing. Have you ever seen their kisses? He’s the one who initiates kisses with her; she never returns it and never looks anything close to enthusiastic about it. She endures them, as she endures everything in the shit show that is her life. At this point, I’m pretty sure Sansa feels like she’s done with men altogether. And wow, now she might find meaning in her life by having the baby of her rapist, instead of taking her home and her brother back from that monster, like she’s actually trying to do? I feel like I’ve taken a time machine back to the 1930s or something. That’s some seriously regressive sexual politics right there, I almost can’t believe someone in this day and age typed it. It’s amazing and baffling at the same time.

      I think she does have feelings for Baelish. I have always sensed some attraction between him and Sansa. Sansa is so out of touch with her own sexual and romantic desires, that I don’t think she can recognize it when she sees it. As for now, she wants to be away from him, she wants to put him into the past, but as I said before, she is not over him. It is still something going on between those two.

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    145. nigglesnush,

      U have no idea of how I think of women. My mother raised me.and I’m a southern man r women aren’t as progressive as some of them r .but I love women and a strong. One is what is needed. We all have places to be me I’m a father. Maybe for a eunuch its hard for u sorry.what is so bad about just being a mother?

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    146. Dylanstargaryian:
      nigglesnush,

      Thank u we could use a little 1930s.like I said as a father she’s like a daughter to me and I will never understand women.glad u do. But u most be the future I’m in the past where I like.and they built sansa to be mother. So obvious.

      Donald Trump, is that you?

      The misogyny, the grammar, it all adds up…

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    147. solarflare25,

      Thanks for a little support. Sorry if I come off old fashioned. But I’m a gentleman always. My wife doesn’t work I do that’s what I’m built for. She takes care of us like a mother should. Yin and yang .sorry if people don’t except there roles .
      nigglesnush,

      Good to hear sorry the rest of the has to have u in it. Nigglesnush.

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    148. Dylanstargaryian<,

      Why is sansa such a sore subject? Does she remind us of someone?of course .to me she is my lil girl who is just spoilt.we all can’t have it the way we want it that’s life and its a cercie. “Bitch”.

      Dylan, for me, its not just Sansa,its all of the Starks (including Jon) They were the first people we meet in the books, and in the show we see them grow up. They are like our chidren. Then all these awful things happen to the family – we don't want more awful things, we want them to be well and succeed, and not make the mistakes their parents and older brother made…

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    149. Dylanstargaryian,

      There is nothing wrong with being just a mother, but if the show makes Sansa pregnant with Ramsay’s baby that would be a repetition of Gilly’s story, so I don’t think that it’s going to happen. Sansa has a potential of playing a mother but primarily for Rickon IMO.

      And she is definitely not in love with LF. For some reason which I don’t quite understand taking into account her experience with sadists and dwarfs she has a genuine distaste to LF and that was one of the reasons he sold her to Ramsay (in the show).

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    150. Dylanstargaryian:
      HousePotterz,

      So now itsa spelling b andI’m a bigot too .again thanks.I’m not here to find out how u feel about me.I’m here for this story.the way people.r today it’s a complement coming from some.

      Um, your comments are literally the definition of misogyny. You know that, right? It’s important to me that you know that.

      And guy, you’re the one making comments about a female character in this story and attaching your own beliefs about women to them! If you do that sort of thing, people will respond!

      But no, send women back to the kitchen where they belong. Make America great again!

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    151. Dylanstargaryian:
      Inga,

      She told lil finger she could still feel him inside her.foreshadowing by martin is always in play.

      It was beyond obvious that she was referring to Ramsay raping her when she said that…

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    152. Flayed Potatoes,

      Sansa told Jon that her great-uncle has taken the Riverrun, so Jon could have proposed to send Davos or some other person instead of Brienne, so LF could not be sure.

      Of cause, in general I agree that he is trying to isolate her and plant the seeds of mistrust, but so far I don’t see those seeds to have any potential of growing. Look, Sansa is willing to take back WF but not so much for herself, as for her family – Rickon, Arya, and Bran. She does’t plan to marry and have children of her own, and Jon practically promised to return to the Wall when he is done with Ramsay. So there is no big potential for rivalry. Of cause, Jon will be reminded that he is a bastard regularly, and that will give him some frustrations, but it will be resolved in ep 10, i hope.

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    153. Gwendoline Christie seems like so much fun.

      Kristofer Hivju has been very funny this season. His 😀 look at Brienne this episode was hilarious.

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    154. Demon Monkey: I think this hits the nail on the head. Some are frustrated (not you obviously) that Sansa had a bigger role than Jon in this episode. And really since they reunited. And some ppl want Jon to have the bigger role. Hence the frustration. I’m sure there are other factors but this Is the underlying problem IMO.

      I don’t care if Sansa has a bigger role than Jon. All I want is for Jon to have a meaningful role in the season, which unfortunately he hasn’t had. It becomes even more apparent because he is spending all his time with the best written character so far this season. But yes, since Jon is atleast as big a character as Sansa, he deserves better. When two big characters come together, there needs to be a balance in the writing for the two, imo. Which is missing in his case as well as in Jaime’s. I hope things get better in the future episodes.

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    155. HousePotterz,

      Maybe miss guided.but aren’t we all. Again thanks .I’m a man and as such try to be the best I can.my wife has it made she’s able to do what she wants. I just try to stay in my role. To make it easier for her.I’m really glad most people don’t get me .if they did I’d know I was in the wrong place.

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    156. Demon Monkey,

      Sam,

      There is nothing more tiresome and simple-minded than those who scream OMG ANTI-FEMINIST MISOGYNY when someone critiques the actions of a female character. It’s frankly pathetic. Also, it makes me think you just don’t even know what those words and terms mean, and you do them a disservice when you throw them about with no basis.

      Guess what? With the assertion of agency on Sansa’s part (which I am ALL for) comes equally the RIGHT to be critiqued for those decisions. Those that want her to be able to make decisions but be immune from any criticism of the consequences are perhaps the most hypocritical of them all. Or are people saying that having legitimate criticisms of Sansa’s actions make you a woman hater? Because that’s about the dumbest thing I’ve read.

      Is it “dislike and contempt of women” to say that Sansa’s decision to lie could have serious ramifications for people she cares about? Especially if in the end she does have to go back to LF and the Vale.

      It’s like people equate supporting Sansa = believing she’s a master player of the game that is always right. No. I support Sansa’s evolution, but I also reserve the right to say that her current decision to lie and omit the truth in a desire to “deal” with LF herself will 1) likely have negative consequences, including for other characters we’ve grown to care about. Or is it misogynistic to care about Tormund, Brienne, Pod, Jon and others’ lives? and 2) will still lead to her needing LF. I can understand it and the place where her decisions are coming from and still think she’s dead wrong. Understanding does NOT equal supporting. Afterall, Brienne herself called Sansa out on lying, and Brienne probably is loyal to her most of all.

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    157. Demon Monkey,

      Right, because avenging her abuse in a marriage that she DID still agree to with LF for the purpose of taking back LF and risking the life of thousands is really feminist, as you’re so concerned with. Those two things are not the same. Please, don’t hurt yourself bending over backwards with all your social justice crusading.

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    158. ghost of winterfell,

      I think it’s more that we’ve seen the fallout of Sansa’s horrific ordeals. We’ve seen her have conversations about it with someone she felt was responsible (LF) and we’re seeing her act on it. It’s incredibly important for her and for us to watch her really face what’s happened to her and come out stronger for it. It matters for us to watch a character go through that.

      Which is why it’s weird that Jon, who came back from the dead, is in a weird way a bystander in all that’s unfolding – the plan is in his name, but it’s mostly Sansa/Davos controlling it – and has not really had a conversation with the person responsible for his resurrection (Mel) and it’s basically the kind of a joke line with Brienne? I do think it’s coming though.

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    159. Sorry if I come off like a women hater actually quite the opposite.We are products of our environment. And it would be a lot better world if folks found and knew what there places are.whatever that place may be. I could counter anything through at me.with a why am I stuck here at work while lil lady at home I’d trade places if she wanted. But can’t this is the real world.

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    160. HousePotterz, “….people who think she is betraying Jon are simply seeing things that aren’t there, probably due to never liking Sansa to begin with.”

      Not necessarily. I didn’t pick up on anything remotely scandalous while watching the episode. I wrote the lie off as just her not wanting Jon to know she confronted Baelish. That she just didn’t want to go into it because she wants the focus on the bigger task at hand. It’s only after I read the article with Sophie where she talks about sibling rivalry and friction coupled with the little phrase about her being unclean Stark or whatever it was and watched it again with the thought in mind that I noticed subtle vibes I hadn’t the first time around.

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    161. Nadia:
      Demon Monkey,

      Sam,

      There is nothing more tiresome and simple-minded than those who scream OMG ANTI-FEMINIST MISOGYNY when someone critiques the actions of a female character. It’s frankly pathetic. Also, it makes me think you just don’t even know what those words and terms mean, and you do them a disservice when you throw them about with no basis.

      Guess what? With the assertion of agency on Sansa’s part (which I am ALL for) comes equally the RIGHT to be critiqued for those decisions. Those that want her to be able to make decisions but be immune from any criticism of the consequences are perhaps the most hypocritical of them all. Or are people saying that having legitimate criticisms of Sansa’s actions make you a woman hater? Because that’s about the dumbest thing I’ve read.

      Is it “dislike and contempt of women” to say that Sansa’s decision to lie could have serious ramifications for people she cares about? Especially if in the end she does have to go back to LF and the Vale.

      It’s like people equate supporting Sansa = believing she’s a master player of the game that is always right. No. I support Sansa’s evolution, but I also reserve the right to say that her current decision to lie and omit the truth in a desire to “deal” with LF herself will 1) likely have negative consequences, including for other characters we’ve grown to care about. Or is it misogynistic to care about Tormund, Brienne, Pod, Jon and others’ lives?and 2) will still lead to her needing LF. I can understand it and the place where her decisions are coming from and still think she’s dead wrong. Understanding does NOT equal supporting. Afterall, Brienne herself called Sansa out on lying, and Brienne probably is loyal to her most of all.
      Thank u .I believe may have said it perfectly. We r what we r and I hate the double standard that seems will always be there, but that’s life.

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    162. ghost of winterfell,

      i agree since episode 6×03 jon didn’t do very much and i have the feeling that his storyline was put aside,non of our question about him have been answered in 5 episode why does he still don’t ask himself question about why he came back? why did he still didn’t have a talk with mel?why mel think he is PTWP?what is his personal purpose as a chracter?right now he said 3 lines in each episode i glad that sansa’s empowerement (even if D&D’s interview about her don’t really reassure me for the future) but i don’t want him to be “the good sidekick” and have only a supportive role like ajorah and daario for the benifit of another character…call it pride,jealousy,fanboy i don’t give a damn but it will dissapointement if he stay like all the season and i hope his “special episode” about him is not in the episode finale i don’t want to wait 10 episode to see him do something.

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    163. I’m sick of this Sansa debate. Everyone lies, deal with it. Small, big, white, black lies, whatever you call it, everyone does that. Or is there any of you who NEVER?

      As for me, the old Sansa is naive and annoying. But the new Sansa….is somehow still naive and annoying as hell (naive, mostly).
      Most people describe her as badass queen this season. But I can see none of it. She is still a girl who always need protection, and demands protection from here and there, and when someone failed to protect her (read: Littlefinger) she will throw him away, and find another with better prospect. Just tell me. What she can do without Brienne, Jon, Littlefinger, or even Theon to protect her?
      Oh, just die already so people will stop fighting in comment section, and accused each other of this matter.

      (Okay just kidding for the last ones :P)

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    164. Ginevra,

      Love that idea. I would like if that’s what happens, it sounds so poignant 🙂 Having not read the story, I enjoy getting random excerpts here and there. Those extra clues and ideas fuel my speculation for the show and thus renew the hype 🙂

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    165. Nadia: THAT is my point, not that she’s trying to get Jon killed. Just that she’s knowingly keeping information from him that could save lives, potentially even his life (THEY don’t know he’s not going to die in battle, the audience does), because she wants to hold the cards.

      COULD save lives. Yes. Could. Or, could end up losing lives. Sansa has used her own judgement to decide that information is best kept secret for now and you’re mad? Because she made a choice? How can you – or anyone – possibly know what the alternative outcome is and blame Sansa for “loss of life”?

      Jon and co don’t know what Baelish is like Sansa does – they might be thrilled to have a Vale army on their side. Baelish could turn on them and murder Jon if the Vale forces were to join up – it seems likely that getting rid of Jon would be part of Baelish’s plan, especially if he is/was planning to try to marry Sansa. And indeed if he’s not lying about the Blackfish, the Tullies joining Sansa is consistent with such a plan.

      Ultimately, it could be that Sansa’s choice to keep Baelish out of the picture would save lives, not cost them. Sansa doesn’t know (none of us do) but she made the choice she thought was correct under the circumstances.

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    166. Nadia,

      I don’t know. There are just 3 episodes before the battle and guessing from the preview, it looks like there won’t be much of the North in the next one either. Which leaves just 2 episodes, so I don’t know what to expect. It looks like there will be no real arc for Jon this season.
      Regarding Sansa, I agree her scenes were important and very well done too. I enjoyed watching them.
      I want to see more for Jon though, definitely.

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    167. QueenofThrones,

      And yet….

      she’ll end up right back with Baelish and the Vale.

      So ultimately, her decision to “keep Baelish out of the picture” isn’t going to save lives, not really.

      It’s also quite clear that show wants you to question why Sansa lied – Brienne called her out on it when they clearly cut some of their other conversations – and you clearly see them focus on Sansa’s reaction to that. It would very much fit the dramatic progression of that story line if those decisions do have consequences, as ALL decisions do, and may lead to some conflict. Or do you think the show is never going to bring it up again and have her and Jon have no conflict?

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    168. Nadia:
      Which is why it’s weird that Jon, who came back from the dead, is in a weird way a bystander in all that’s unfolding – the plan is in his name, but it’s mostly Sansa/Davos controlling it – and has not really had a conversation with the person responsible for his resurrection (Mel) and it’s basically the kind of a joke line with Brienne? I do think it’s coming though.

      In this regard I was unsatisfied with how they handled Jon’s return vis a vis the mutineers. We never got to see them learn Jon was still alive, or anything like that, and while Thorne’s speech before his death was very good, I would have liked to see them actually talk one on one.

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    169. Risa of Asshai,

      Yeah I like the arguments made by “some” some are here to talk of you instead of show .I know how a lot of our self’s come out in our points that we try to make. Guess I could just try to break down the person stating a point instead of the point they make.

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    170. Risa of Asshai,

      What would Dany be without dragons or Jorah? What would Arya be without her training with the faceless men? Sansa may not be as proactive as the former but every character needs friends or allies. Your comment has no substance but I respect your right to dislike Sansa as a character.

      Also I don’t think anyone here has referred to Sansa as a badass Queen, some of us are just happy with her character progression however little or inconsequential it may be to the wider story.

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    171. Aryamad:
      Bodog,

      D&D please make this happen! You know, it could be like the scene with Ygritte luring Jon into the cave. Only Tormund is the one kissed by fire who’s like all “I want you to see me.” lol Oh man that might be too much. XD

      Cute parallel! I like it! About “kissed by fire”, I would have liked Ygritte to be Tormund’s sister.

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    172. Sean C.,

      Sean, in prior threads on what LF may or may not have know regarding Ramsey, to the best of my recollection a number of people have stated that LF did not know about Ramsey (which is backed up by D&D comments), and could not have known about Ramsey (with sufficient coin perhaps he could have been known if he’d really tried), and thus he was not at fault for what subsequently occurred as he could not have known of Ramsey given the Bolton’s ability to keep such matters secret. To me that’s absolving him from at the least a callous disregard for her safety.

      He trusts Roose and believes him incapable of deceiving him that he apparently leaves no guards? I know that are budgetary constraints, but generally you would assume he’d travel with a dozen or so just to keep broken men from attacking the carriage and could have left some with Sansa. Now would they have lost their lives? Yes, but at least it would have been doing something, however, meaningless.

      I think at best he took a calculated risk and apparently lost. Which, as was pointed out, is not the first time he has (the Cersei one appeared to me to be borne of supreme hubris and if he had learned anything about it would be the importance of guards (power)).

      I say apparently as he may gain what he sought all along. A battle between the Boltons and another army (not Stannis, but Jon et al) with the army of the Vale ready to swoop down and save the day. So Sansa becomes Wardeness of the North (assuming Bran, Rickon, and Jon, for whatever reason, do not) and he is Lord Protector of the Vale and is able to re-worm himself into her good graces.

      I’m not saying that happens, but it is pretty close to the original plan and is still feasible. And having Sansa not make use of the army and having it come in to save the day would possibly be a necessary component of this.

      I agree, he is not infallible. He makes mistakes. He made one with Br andon. He made one with Cersei. He learned from the first. I would guess he’s learned from the second. Is this his third, where there are no third chances? Hopefully, but we will see. And as much as I’d like to see the denoucement of his arc, as it is, occur this year, it may indeed be a season 7 event.

      I think one of the scenes in the trailer has identified him in the godswood at WF. Maybe it will occur there. Maybe not.

      But that’s why I made the comment.

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    173. ghost of winterfell,

      You don’t know that. I’ll give them some credit, that story line has a lot more leg to it. The battle is supposedly episode 9 but I think a lot of people have pointed out that episode 10 is TOJ reveal. If Jon is back in Winterfell, I think they’re certainly going to explore what all this means.

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    174. Nadia:
      ghost of winterfell,

      Which is why it’s weird that Jon, who came back from the dead, is in a weird way a bystander in all that’s unfolding – the plan is in his name, but it’s mostly Sansa/Davos controlling it – and has not really had a conversation with the person responsible for his resurrection (Mel) and it’s basically the kind of a joke line with Brienne? I do think it’s coming though.

      Now this I DO agree with! I wanna see some exploration of how Jon feels and is coping with his post resurrection PTSD.

      BTW…even though we’ve been debating, I do see your point about how Sansa is wrong to lie and that this could in fact cause a huge number of casualties. I just really don’t think that’s her intention at all – her thought and wishes are just polarised by her recent traumas and she hasn’t realised the impact this may have- she will soon enough on the battlefield I’d say. The Sansa hate/mysogony bull has kinda come outta nowhere though.

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    175. Nadia,

      Episode 10 is going to be jam packed with big moments from practically every storyline, there won’t be much time for that, imo. I would love to be wrong, mind you, but I am not optimistic.

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    176. Nadia,

      It makes absolutely no sense how they’ve structured Jon so far this season. I can’t come to terms with it really, lol. And I think his key episode won’t be until the last one. From what we know with minor spoilers and where we at right now in storylines, it doesn’t seem like it could happen before then. Will there be another Jon cliffhanger like last year? Bah hum bug. Hey, while reading a few of your posts I was like yes, yes, yes lol. They resonate. If only I could express my thoughts quite as eloquently as yourself. Kudos! 🙂

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    177. Sean C.,

      This Sean! Where was everybody when some of us complained about that after the first episodes? It seems that then the standard reply was basically “Oh but we don’t have to see all conversations and reactions on screen, it would be “redundant.” And “We can assume that it happened off-screen and that’s good enough cause they have to keep moving the plot forward.” I was puzzled at that reaction because as a fan I expected the writers to understand that we need certain set-ups to pay off visually, not just imagine those in our minds. What good is that?

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    178. I think Jon will get his chance to shine in the next couple of episodes as he rallies the North on their side. You’ll see Jon give big speeches, and convince the North of the need to take action with the WWs and Ramsay. I expect Sansa to be more mute in these scenes.

      All is not lost people, Kit said repeatedly that this season will be huge for him.

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    179. Sean C.,

      e never got to see them learn Jon was still alive, or anything like that, and while Thorne’s speech before his death was very good, I would have liked to see them actually talk one on one.

      Yes, really disappointed they didn’t see fit to write something like that in.

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    180. Nadia:
      QueenofThrones,

      And yet….

      So ultimately, her decision to “keep Baelish out of the picture” isn’t going to save lives, not really.

      It’s also quite clear that show wants you to question why Sansa lied – Brienne called her out on it when they clearly cut some of their other conversations – and you clearly see them focus on Sansa’s reaction to that. It would very much fit the dramatic progression of that story line if those decisions do have consequences, as ALL decisions do, and may lead to some conflict. Or do you think the show is never going to bring it up again and have her and Jon have no conflict?

      Okay, first of all, that destination and scenario is totally your speculation. There isn’t a shred of proof that Sansa goes anywhere but Winterfell this season. So you’re judging an important decision that she made in this episode in the context of your own speculation for which you have nothing to back it up.

      The show does want us to ask why Sansa lied to Jon. The thing that you seem to have missed was that they answered that question, just not in so many words. The look on her face when she is considering Brienne’s question screams regret. She had, after all, just proclaimed at length how much she trusted Jon.

      Her gift to Jon was not some further act of manipulation of him. It was a peace offering (even though Jon didn’t know about the lie,) and it very clearly establishes them as equals in the endeavor. They’re wearing the same sigil now!

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    181. HousePotterz,

      That is not at all what the show runners nor Sophie Turner has said. They’re not resolved as equals. She doesn’t fully trust Jon and she still is under Baelish’s influence in some regards. That’s what was said very clearly, and what was shown very clearly.

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    182. I don’t know if it really fits Sansa to really be confident and say what she thinks. But I think a lot of people disagree with me 😛

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    183. Shaz:
      Risa of Asshai,

      What would Dany be without dragons or Jorah? What would Arya be without her training with the faceless men?

      You didn’t read all my words, and just randomly get angry with it.
      I said, “What she can do without Brienne, Jon, Littlefinger, or even Theon to PROTECT her? I didn’t say anything about men or allies .
      Dany is doing good without Jorah and dragons actually, at least, she had been without them by her side at some time. And so does Arya. She doesn’t need Faceless Men to protect her, because she can PROTECT herself and if not, she will find a way not find a knight. I can see it in my bones.

      And just don’t get me wrong. I don’t dislike Sansa that much. It also bring me joy to see her character developed, even tho I’m still not impressed by it, yet.
      So here I am. Just getting tired of people debating over her lie. Sigh.

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    184. ghost of winterfell,
      i heard rumors that his possible win agains ramsay will not be to his only merit but the force of vale…but if what you said is
      than it will be dissapointing,if jon’s only purpose is to swing the sword and play the action hero than it sucks, i think they sacrifise his arc for the sake of the plot and sansa’s level up” moment i have nothing agains sansa but i feel like he is ignore for like 2 episode his last great big moment in episode 3 was totally fanservice jon’s purpose is become season after season the leader he is supposed to be…what i see from him this season is a regression i don’t see where “he kill the boy and let the man be born” where is the natural leader persona from last season?his devellopement was what most people wanted to see after episode 2 and i see none of it he is mute,melisandre even more only davos make sense right now…

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    185. ygritte:
      Nadia,

      It makes absolutely no sense how they’ve structured Jon so far this season.

      Oh, but it does! IMO they want to show that NOBODY REALLY CARES ABOUT JON and his feelings. Everyone (both characters and viewers) just want him to go and save the world (or family). It doesn’t matter that he feels scared, it doesn’t matter that he is being crashed under the burden of responsibility – he is just a tool, even to Davos, who is the most understanding person of them all. So, Jon goes back into a hero mode and tries to do what he can, but I assume that his loneliness will come up at some point and then we will see how we have neglected him and how selfish we were. I only hope that it won’t be too late.

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    186. Nadia:
      HousePotterz,

      That is not at all what the show runners nor Sophie Turner has said. They’re not resolved as equals. She doesn’t fully trust Jon and she still is under Baelish’s influence in some regards. That’s what was said very clearly, and what was shown very clearly.

      I understand that. At this point in the story nothing they do is random or unintended. I agree with everyone saying that this episode introduced some friction between Jon and Sansa, but I see it more as the product of showing us that Littlefinger still has the ability to manipulate Sansa, even now. I believe strongly that was the purpose of the lie.

      I also believe we’ve seen the worst of this friction. When Brienne asked Sansa about the lie, that look on her face was sincere regret. If I could read her thoughts, I expect they’d be something like, “Oh dammit, I bought his bullshit and lied to my brother.” Then she gives him the cloak.

      I’m not saying we won’t see them spar a bit over the rest of the season, but I think that the cloak was really symbolic of Sansa casting aside her Littlefinger-induced doubt about her “half-brother.”

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    187. The only Starks still alive I care about are Arya (both books and show) and Bran (show), and my opinion on Sansa and Jon is pretty low. Though I like Sansa better in the show and give credit to its actress and the writers for that. But she’s still very low on my faves list. Maybe it’s because I’m not that interested in their plot lines that I could care less about the whole Jon/Sansa thing going on, but if I recall correctly, Sansa tells Brienne she trusts Jon. At least with her life. That she doesn’t trust him with her secrets is kinda understandable given the nature of said secret, don’t you think?
      I can see it happening…
      “Oh, by the way, Jon, the Vale is ready to help us with its army.”
      “Really? That’s fantastic, we could retake Winterfell from Ramsay with that army!”
      “Yeah, the only problem is it’s at Littlefinger beck and call.”
      “Shady character, this one, I hear. But we’ll have enough men, who cares?”
      “Well, I do”
      “And you do, because…”
      Now, how do Sansa put delicately to her half-brother how the guy willingly married her off to a sociopath who beat her and raped her?
      It’s one thing for her to confront Littlefinger. After all, he’s one of her tormentors in that case. And she needed it. It’s another thing to admit to what has been done to her to her brother, methinks.
      Just sayin’!

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    188. HousePotterz,

      I agree and I hope that after regretting this rather innocent lie Sansa will start to think about her other lies as well and probably with time she will collect her strength to tell the truth which will be the end of LF.

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    189. Christhemad,

      Nicely put! I’d add that I think Jon would already know about Littlefinger and his role in Sansa’s being married to Ramsay. It seems assumed that they’ve caught one another up on their respective predicaments.

      In which case I expect Jon might say something like, “If I ever see Littlefinger, I’m taking his head off!”

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    190. I’m afraid my point on the Ramsey rape of her was lost to some .was not a reference to lil finger, but the baby she is carrying. Hence she needs a home and stability. Sansa has always let me down, but I believe motherhood is her arc.very ironic for her to raise the next bastard of winterfell.Jon was not treated nicely by her.irony and foreshadowing .grrm.

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    191. Sean C.:
      Ginevra,

      Thanks, Sean. Ned also promises Jon that he’ll tell Jon all about his mom the next time they meet, so that original promise likely had an expiration date. I don’t believe George would would have setup this line without following it all the way through, so that is why I think there might be something buried there. But I could be wrong about that part. What do you think he’s chasing in his greendream?

      BTW, I didn’t mean to interrupt the Golden Gate of San FanSisCo. Carry on tearing down the girl who has not been torn down enough.

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    192. Flayed Potatoes:
      Inga,

      I think he knows Sansa will send her because Sansa didn’t bring anyone else to the meeting. He’s figured out that she doesn’t want Jon to know, otherwise she’d have brought more people for protection. Brienne is the only person who witnessed the meeting, so if Sansa takes the bait she’ll will send Brienne.

      Throughout the show LF has been focused on emotionally isolating Sansa from people she can trust, so she will only have him to rely on. Now she’s out of his hands and under another man’s protection, and he can’t let that happen. So he’ll isolate her from Brienne (who he knows is devoted to her via Cat), and he’ll try and isolate her from Jon by planting the half-brother seed. He wants to make her believe that Jon has power because of his army and might be a threat to her, preying on Sansa’s own insecurities and trauma (which she revealed in that same scene). LF is disgusting.

      To LF, Sansa is like Cat 2.0 and part of his hatred for the Starks is his belief that Brandon/Ned stole Cat from him. Now he thinks that Sansa/Cat 2.0 will be taken from him by Jon/Ned 2.0.

      Hopefully, Sansa figures him out. She was working on Jon’s coat before she met LF (see the opening scene), so imo her gift isn’t to keep him in the dark. They both need to look their best and impress the lords.

      So much love for the man of little glove! Though what you’ve said doesn’t ring true with Aidan’s interview on Baelish this season, Aidan may not have nearly as good a handle on the character as he thinks – or perhaps he’s full of it. LF is a cold, conniving, heartless son of a bitch, and it would be like an emotional abuser and manipulator to isolate his victim. He’s certainly isolating her from Jon, and so it could be true about Brienne, as well.

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    193. ghost of winterfell:
      billyboy,

      His special episode is him fighting the battle, that’s it.

      Mmm, he never called Hardhome special, and I can’t imagine this season’s battle itself will be significantly more Jon-centric. I’m sure he meant some big reveals and backstory for Jon coming this season. One episode will be heavy with these, and it could be the battle episode merged with backstory and reveals.

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    194. Daughter of Winter,

      I think both Sansa and Jon have experienced serious trauma and that’s why they seem to reject each other when they, in fact, feel the need to reach to another human being to get comfort and affection. Imo they are both on that point when it’s very difficult for them to accept feelings and hope the way serene people do.
      I was a little bothered by Sansa lying to Jon, I admit, but we can’t already know her reasons and plans. Perhaps she doesn’t know them either! But I’m sure she’s not going to betray him or enter in any competition.

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    195. ygritte,

      It pains me to read that you consider Jon a non-entity! Not because you aren’t allowed to dislike what you loved once, not at all, but because I can sense sadness from you and I want you to enjoy this show as you once did.
      I don’t think Jon is finished as a person or that his character evolution is ended. After all, it’s a clear Christ motif in his story, maybe his inner resurrection is slower than we expected 🙂

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    196. Inga:
      Flayed Potatoes,

      Yeah it’s getting resolved eventually. LF is trying to create the rivalry right now.

      The distance to Riverrun is huge, so I think in Jon’s eyes it’s safer to send people like Brienne and Pod, who have already been there, know the area, and can defend themselves better than Davos in case they get attacked by robbers or something. Not to mention based on the scenes we’ve seen so far he listens to Sansa’s advice and doesn’t try to undermine her.

      Ginevra,

      I know he said something about wanting to redeem himself, but LF could easily use that redemption to manipulate.

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    197. I don’t think Sansa will ever knowingly betray Jon, but I still think her lie was stupid. I understand that she doesn’t want to give away her meeting with LF as Davos and Jon would probably jump at the opportunity of having a bigger army – but why wouldn’t they? It was Sansa who begged that Jon should go and retake Winterfell, even if he doesn’t have the numbers (and the 2000 wildlings are not an effective army against trained soldiers), and Jon only agreed because of Rickon. One would think that Sansa does want to keep the only loyal force to Jon as unharmed as it can be – and the Vale’s army would be definitely come handy.
      She also knows that the Vale’s Lords, like Royce are not fond of Littlefinger, but always thought highly of Ned and the Starks in general. And if LF really brought that army from the Vale, those Lords are likely there as generals, leading their troops.

      Sansa should have accepted LF’s offer, send him back to bring the army of the Vale, it would take a few days (two-three weeks probably). And as soon as she gets back to CB, she informs Jon about EVERYTHING, including what LF’s done, and forging a plan together. It might involve rallying the lesser Northern Houses to gain more men.
      When LF arrives with the army, they take Winterfell (with that big of an army it is unlikely that Jon’s own men and the Northern soldiers lose big numbers), and after taking Winterfell Sansa declares herself the Wardeness of the North, and informs the Vale Lords about what LF did. They can even have a quick trial and an execution for him. Sansa can make sure the Royce continues as a Lord Protector of the Vale, further training Sweetrobin and whatnot, and maintaining the alliance between the North and the Vale. Some of the troops can even stay there, but there would be enough Northern people alive to further defend Winterfell.

      Now that would have been a plan! Making sure LF bites it, securing the Vale’s help in the battle, making sure Jon’s army has better chance to survive. Sansa could have still come up with details, making it mostly HER plan to win the war and have revenge. And it doesn’t include her lying to Jon.

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    198. Aszusz,

      A great plan indeed. The only problem: there is a very big possibility that Littlefinger comes late and joins the fray only after Jon and Sansa are dead. To take the Vale army Sansa has to remove Littlefinger before the battle but to do that she has to confess her lies to the lords of the Vale and she is not ready for that – she may not even understand that yet. However, as far as I understand the Blackfish knows the lords of the Vale, and there is a possibility that he will play some role in bringing the Vale on Sansa’s side. And Littlefinger also has no other way that to march to Winterfel, because otherwise lords of the Vale will start asking to many questions. So at the end it should play well. At least I hope so.

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    199. Sansa being ‘the least Stark’ is starting to make sense. She is the most ‘cosmopolitan’ of the Starks, who have for the most part stayed insulated in the North, dealing mostly with northern matters and politics. Sansa on the other hand has spent years in the capital at the royal court observing first hand the political machinations of the likes of Tywin, Tyrion, Cersei, lady Olenna, Margeary and of course LF. She still seems a bit naive and inexperienced but if the Starks are ever going to be not just players but actually winners in the Westeros arena (and not just in the North) it will be because of Sansa, with the additional help of Davos. Jon by comparison is a frontiersman almost mostly concerned (rightly so) with the WW threat.

      Concerning the coat she gave Jon, please note she was working on it before she met LF. Through it she was showing Jon she considers him an equal. But I think the coat is more than a nice gesture. It is a propaganda piece, announcing to the northern lords Jon is a Stark and the second coming of Ned, so you better pay attention.

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    200. Well, since you agree that LF will come no matter what, now the chance that he will arrive late (with nobody knowing he is coming) is even bigger. But if they know he is coming, they can wait until he gets there, or at least count on it and making strategy accordingly.
      And, as I said, Sansa should only make the big reveal after they took Winterfell, so that wouldn’t take too much time. And why should she confess her lies? She should only tell them that LF gave her to the Boltons. If she is a player, she still can say that LF did this against her will.

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    201. Oh man. People complaining about Jon’s arc or that he has supposedly become a supporting character to Sansa have short memory. He’s the poster boy this season, remember? The opening scene is the Wall+him in black with blood (subtle much?)+his wolf howling in the background. Last year, the season started with Cersei and the coda was her walk of shame followed by his death. Just because others characters have taken predominance over him the last couple of episodes doesn’t change the fact that the season will end with with him in a big way. It’s really not that complicated: the season has 10 episodes and 10000000 characters that need to shine too.

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    202. My theory.
      LF told Sansa, that Blackfish took back River Run w/ a Tully army. But didn’t tell her the Lannister had it under siege. So… No Tully army for Sansa. Now she needs the Vale Army, as LF planed all along. She’ll have to ask him, but probably will tell him she’s only doing it because she has no other options, it doesn’t mean she forgives him or trust him. He’ll yes yes her blah blah blah, anything she wants. Then he’ll remind her that this army is loyal to her not her half brother.
      After they win and retake Winterfell, Jon’s going to try to rally the northern houses to go back to the wall with him to fight the WW. LF will remind them that Sansa is the true born daughter of Ned Stark and sister to Robb Stark, you remember him, the guy you named King of the North. So there stands your Queen. And only Sansa can command the northern army to go and fight a bunch of dead guys. Wanting to prove she’s a good queen (and because LF tells her to) she sends them on their marry way. She thinks she has the the Vale army to protector, after all LF told her they would be loyal to her. Except oh my goodness your cousin Robert Arryn wants his army back unless some kinda of alliance can be made between the Vale and the North. And after 3 or 4 words LF will convince her marrying him is the best idea.
      End the season 6.
      And I will point out that Sansa has always been my favorite character. Till Little Finger said “half brother” and she didn’t jack him up against the wall and say “brother”. Not Brienne, Sansa !

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    203. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Your words always cheer or bring comfort m’lady. Depression, my old friend, has kicked in, and anyone who’s experienced it knows how it can zap the enjoyment out of even things one normally loves. This shall pass, I know. But in the meantime I’m missing the anticipation I used to get for an absorbing episode I will love, yet it appears to be weeks away from now, if ever this season. You must feel let down in a way too cause one of your fave’s Jamie hasn’t been given much to do and they’ve seemed to downplay his progress as well. But we do know

      he’s going to feature this Sun with the HS face-off and in future at RR so hopefully we’ll get more of his POV again and break from Cercei. It’ll be interesting Brienne and him meeting after all this time.

        Quote  Reply

    204. Nadia,

      I have no idea what is spoiler we there – I assume filming spoilers? Since I don’t read those I can’t address directly.

      But let’s assume that whatever you wrote is proof that Sansas decision ultimately backfired. Does that mean she made the “wrong” decision? I’d still say no, not really. I think people sometimes get confused. A decision ultimately leading to a terrible outcome does not mean that decision was automatically wrong. Decisions should be judged by what that character could reasonably know at that time.

      Given the information she currently has she cannot risk having LF and an army loyal to him by her side. Now, killing him right then might have been better, I’d agree with that.

      I Also think that Sansa could have and should have told Jon privately what happened with Baelish. Like Sophie said she’s not ready to trust anyone completely. But in that meeting? No way.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Shaz,

      Not in the books. For whatever reason the show decided that Cat be all butt-hurt that Ned felt it was his duty to go to KL. In the book, She convinced him it was “he and only he” who could get to the bottom of Jon Arryn’s murder.

        Quote  Reply

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