Sophie Turner Discusses Sansa’s Emotional Game of Thrones Conclusion and Natalie Dormer ‘Knows’ the Ending

Margaery Sansa

Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark) has had a long and arduous journey from season 1 of Game of Thrones through season 7. We can only imagine what season 8 will hold – No, seriously, every day we imagine what season 8 will hold! Sansa’s journey was never an easy one to watch as a viewer, pleasant to experience as a character, or a walk in the park to channel as an actor. And yet, if anyone has done her job right, it’s Sophie. Talking to Digital Spy, she offered many great soundbites about the lessons Sansa has picked up along the way and how she (Sophie) has grown as an actor. Additionally, in an interview with The Hollywood Reporter, while promoting her new movie, In DarknessNatalie Dormer (Margaery Tyrell) very briefly touched on season 8 of GOT.

“She’s a real, true leader of Winterfell now. And that’s where we first see her – as a very protective, empowered lady in charge. It’s the first time you ever see her like that, and it’s so amazing to see her like that – kind of owning her destiny,” says Sophie.

Remember how many haters Sansa had those first few seasons? It’s a little gratifying as a viewer (and a book reader) to see how many people have done an about-face on their perception of her. However, one thing that always bothered me is how many people disliked her until she was raped. It’s always irked me because if that is the threshold for a character to hold empathy in one’s eyes, I feel one is not working hard enough to find the grey spaces in a character that an actor has often worked hard to portray. GOT has always been so good at presenting morally dubious characters. If viewers were able to empathize with Jaime when he saved Brienne from Locke’s entourage in season 3, then they should have been able to empathize with Sansa after she saved Dontos from Joffrey’s cruelty in season 2. She continues:

“I very much remember the first couple of seasons, people really loathed her…They really hated her…Then they started feeling sorry for her, because it seemed like the next few seasons were her being beaten and bruised and raped and married – forced marriages – and all of these horrific things happened to her…Slowly, people started to feel sympathy, but it took a while. A lot of people, for a while, were saying that she deserved it.”

Sigh. I’m happy at least that she has such pride in portraying the character. She is an incredibly gifted actress, and one of the only largely central characters to have never been awarded an Emmy nomination. Perhaps season 8 will change that? With all that’s happened to her, she looks to Sansa’s past to ready her for the future:

“She has Littlefinger, Cersei, Margaery, everyone’s wisdom and teachings all behind her…She’s a real, true leader of Winterfell now. And that’s where we first see her – as a very protective, empowered lady in charge.”

Hey – speaking of Margaery, what’s been going on in the world of Natalie Dormer? A huge career, apparently, as she promotes her new movie In Darkness, in which she starred and co-wrote, not to mention her miniseries Picnic at Hanging Rock, which recently debuted on Amazon with her in the starring role. Does she know anything about GOT season 8? Depends on how you read into this:

“I know A to B. I know what B is, but I don’t know how they get B. But I do know B.”

Thanks, Natalie. Very descriptive of you. Really gets the theories churning!

230 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Sansa has less haters than Danny and has suffer less than Danny,Cercei or Arya throughout the seasons and they get more hate than Sansa ..What the articles says .. that Sansa has many haters ..makes no sense for me ..She has more crazy fans to follow her than any other GOT female character there…and that is 100% true.Sansas haters are just a 5%-10% of the fans when Danny,Arya or Cercei have a 50%-60% of fans that hate them .The editor of this article is just out of what happen in the GOT universe and doesnt understand this

        Quote  Reply

    2. If viewers were able to empathize with Jaime when he saved Brienne from Locke’s entourage in season 3, then they should have been able to empathize with Sansa after she saved Dontos from Joffrey’s cruelty in season 2.

      I gotta say, David, good one.

      Every pointed finger dispels the fog obscuring subtle levels of misogyny such as this.

        Quote  Reply

    3. I’m not going to dig myself into the Sansa-hate which you’re (probably unintentionally) instigating, David. 😛 I’ll just say again that I’ve never been a hater of the character so much, just bored with it since I began reading the books. My issue was always performance based, but I’ll stay out of that again for now too.

      It is interesting that you point out that (for some people) the sympathy turned their view of the character. Interesting to me since the majority of that in her storyline came from the made-up/changed part by D&D. I don’t think that’s by accident since they’ve both always said they like that character because she’s “normal” and realistic. It’s almost like they’ve been working extra hard to change the minds of all the fans that didn’t/don’t like her. They’re well aware of the Sansa-hate as they’ve commented on it during panels/interviews in the past.

        Quote  Reply

    4. they should have been able to empathize with Sansa after she saved Dontos from Joffrey’s cruelty in season 2

      Not all things are equal. Dontos wasn’t Brienne. Maybe if it was Bronn or another character viewers would have felt something for instead of just some random drunk dude.

        Quote  Reply

    5. Natalie and Sophie look really pretty in the picture above – those are my favorite looks for them on the show.

      Would love to know what “B” refers to. . . 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    6. Like Clob said (what I think he meant anyway)… It’s not that Sansa deserves hate… It’s just that she’s boring, and was for a lot of seasons.

      @BrienneBabe
      Please, you’re ridiculous. This is a show with dozens of male AND female characters. You’re allowed to hate a female character without being a sexist. For most sane people, there are reasons to like or hate a character other than the gender. In fact, it’s not even an important factor you consider to figure out if you like or don’t like a character, can you believe it?

        Quote  Reply

    7. BrienneBabe: misogyny such as this

      So you read that and automatically go to the misogyny angle? Interesting.
      I saw it as people being super happy that Brienne survived and glad Jaime went back to help her. They’re two major characters that we’d been watching form a relationship, and readers knew that this was one of the steps in him turning from his complete asshole side.
      Dontos was a throw-away character. I’m sure viewers were proud of or glad that Sansa spoke up to stop what was happening, but again, whatever would have happened to him didn’t matter as much as Brienne. Pretty much as simple as that in my opinion.

        Quote  Reply

    8. * Another Sansa article, another misogyny argument breaking out. How unpredictable and refreshing.

      “I know A to B. I know what B is, but I don’t know how they get B. But I do know B.”

      * I really hope people won’t over analyze that B must stand for something specific or cryptic.

      Damn, season 8 can’t come soon enough.

      Derp!

        Quote  Reply

    9. There is UNDOUBTEDLY an uncomfortable amount of sexist fans in many geeky fandoms like this one.

      Male and female characters are held to very different standards. Look at Stannis, we open to him burning people alive and shortly later killing his brother. Yet despite these first impressions he had (and still has to some degree) a huge following because of how ice cold and manly he is.

      Now look at Dany killing those slavers in S4. Now, I’m not going to say it wasn’t to some degree wrong since it turned out she had murdered a reformist who fought to protect the children who had been killed, but it’s something Dany has NEVER been forgiven for, while if Stannis did the same, it would be viewed as supremely badass. While Dany is mad, evil or irredeemable.

      Dany is viewed as arrogant, entitled and violent. Again, these are all true to some degree. Guess who else is, and is praised for it? You guessed right, bloody STANNIS.

      Remember when Sansa was pissed and waging war on Ramsay? She got labeled a bitch, a warmonger and selfish by plenty of people. Meanwhile, Blackfish was praised for keeping a war going he had long lost, with young men who wanted to go home, simply out of “selfish” revenge. Much like Sansa, although she had far better odds.

      Now, Sansa has never been forgiven for being a spoilt teenager in S1. She will never be forgiven, no matter how much growth she has, her mistakes in S1 define her forever to a certain group. Yet, the Hound literally fucking murdered a little boy and enabled Joffery’s cruelty, yet NO ONE ever brings these things up and the Hound is viewed as a badass hero, at least Arya has the sense to remind the audience about that, keep in mind I personally love the Hound but he’s pretty fucked up. Bronn literally stated he’ll kill a baby for money and no one ever brings that up. Jaime shoved a child through a window in the first episode and people believe he’s made up for his crimes. Theon had children slaughtered and again, viewed as redeemed. It’s very apparent how easy it is for male characters to redeem themselves.

      There is a very nasty side to some fans, I’m afraid, and it isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Clob,

      BeardedOnion,

      Yes, exactly! I don’t think BrienneBabe was speaking just to that particular scene but to many moments in GoT where female characters are subject to HARSH criticisms that I have yet to see the male characters experience. While Sansa did replace the Jeyne Poole storyline who had horrific experiences under Ramsay, women criticised the fact that rape has been used as a tool to progress Sansa’s character. And Sophie said it herself, there were fans saying she deserved it. Obviously, you can dislike female characters but there’s a difference between being a fan with valid criticisms and fans who think someone deserved to get raped. There are definitely undertones of misogyny and sexism in comments within the fan base, unfortunately.

      Anyways, I can’t wait to see season 8 Sansa. By the sound of it, she’s in the “Steel” stage. #from porcelain to ivory to steel

        Quote  Reply

    11. Mr Derp,

      I’m hoping “B” is shorthand for viewers saying “Bloody hell, that was awesome!” as the final credits roll 😀 Sadly I think she just means she knows what the ending is, just not how the story gets there. I prefer my version!

        Quote  Reply

    12. “While I’ve never been impressed with Sophie’s acting ability, the writing choices made for her character haven’t helped.”

      “YOU’RE A SANSA HATER!!!”

        Quote  Reply

    13. BeardedOnion,

      Myself, I’m on a character by character basis. Daenerys I’m all in on even if a couple of her actions were excessive. Stannis was a dick AND burned an innocent little girl. Sandor can be forgiven in my mind because he either was doing his duty or just living a “fighters life” in that kind of world. He didn’t know any other way. Alliser was a douche and a mutineer. Others, others. I haven’t felt Sansa really did much to cause extreme feelings one way or the other. I haven’t been happy with some of show!Sansa’s choices/decisions but that’s about it.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Mr Derp,
      Sorry Mr D I misread your post, I though you were speculating that B was something really cryptic when you weren’t at all. I’ll shush now and just keep my fingers crossed for “bloody hell!” inducing awesomeness 😀

        Quote  Reply

    15. She has Littlefinger, Cersei, Margaery, everyone’s wisdom and teachings all behind her…She’s a real, true leader of Winterfell now. And that’s where we first see her – as a very protective, empowered lady in charge.

      Oh, please give me a break. Sansa has been surrounded by abusive psychopaths, sociopaths, manipulators and twisted, torturous moments for most of her formative years. If she doesn’t exhibit some form of warped behavior, flawed decision-making or inner trauma as a result, I’ll be wondering what show I’m watching. Trusting herself and others must be an issue for her. Her willful gaze (I daresay, smirk?) during Ramsay’s demise and during LF’s woefully uninspired setup, trial and execution, should be the tip of the iceberg regarding her unpredictable mental state.

      Nymeria requests a few moments of your time as well, Sansa.

      Will she use her abusive past to her advantage this next season? Maybe as a strategy against the NK?
      Or will she continue to argue with Jon and others about the disposition of Karstark/Umber lands and other reactive measures?
      Or maybe she’ll simply be consumed by the bigger AotD scenario permeating Westeros?

      In any case, sympathy be damned, possibly the most bittersweet ending of this series should involve our coveted lady of Winterfell. Looking forward to it.

      ——

      On another note…does WotW predict there will be 8 more months of “I know the ending” and “it’s such an emotional conclusion” interviews with every cast and crew member on GoT?

        Quote  Reply

    16. Hodors Bastard: Oh, please give me a break. Sansa has been surrounded by abusive psychopaths, sociopaths, manipulators and twisted, torturous moments for most of her formative years.If she doesn’t exhibit some form of warped behavior, flawed decision-making or inner trauma as a result, I’ll be wondering what show I’m watching. Trusting herself and others must be an issue for her. Her willful gaze (I daresay, smirk?) during Ramsay’s demise and during LF’s woefully uninspired setup, trial and execution, should be the tip of the iceberg regarding her unpredictable mental state.

      Nymeria requests a few moments of your time as well, Sansa.

      Will she use her abusive past to her advantage this next season? Maybe as a strategy against the NK?
      Or will she continue to argue with Jon and others about the disposition of Karstark/Umber lands and other reactive measures?
      Or maybe she’ll simply be consumed by the bigger AotD scenario permeating Westeros?

      In any case, sympathy be damned, possibly the most bittersweet ending of this series should involve our coveted lady of Winterfell. Looking forward to it.

      ——

      On another note…does WotW predict there will be 8 more months of“I know the ending” and “it’s such an emotional conclusion” interviews with every cast and crew member on GoT?

      This isn’t taking into account how she’ll largely be surrounded by family and loads of other influential figures who’ve positively impacted her journey (Tyrion) in season 8. So her jumping off the deep end or even making a drastic decision is not very likely. She may feel some type of way regarding Dany and other Southron natives (Jaime and etc) but we’ll see how that all plays out.

        Quote  Reply

    17. This is what happens when people assume that internet and social media trolls speak for the rest of us.

      Of course misogyny exists in this world. Always has and it probably always will. Does that mean a majority of GoT fans are that way? No, it doesn’t. At least, not the GoT fans I know and speak to. Perhaps some of you need to stop surrounding yourselves with misogynistic friends if you know so many of them. Hell, I know some people that want Sansa to “win” simply because she is a woman. Should I be as up in arms about that as some of you are about certain fans wanting a man to win simply due to gender? Something tells me those complaints would fall on deaf ears.

      WOTW recently did a poll and Dany was MUCH more popular than Stannis, so I’m not sure where this talking point about people bending over for Stannis while hating on Dany comes from. Are there some people who feel that way? of course. Do I think the majority of people feel that way? Hell no, and the evidence from that poll proves it.

      I’ve seen plenty of people, specifically on this very site, say that they will never completely forgive Jaime or Theon for their past, so again, I’m not sure where this argument is coming from that claims otherwise. Nothing more than vague generalizations to accentuate talking points.

      I’m sick to death of this topic, so ya’ll enjoy, but I’m out of this one.

        Quote  Reply

    18. I really miss Margaery/Natalie. She was smart, strong, and a great example of a person who, although not in a position to really control their future, adapted to take what control she could in a situation, and appeal to the love of the ‘common’ folk. Already successful with roles in shows like The Tudors, she’ll be a force.

        Quote  Reply

    19. “Finally, she has the strength of her family behind her,” Turner explained.

      Honestly, can I get some warm-hearted Stark family interaction next season? And I’m not just talking about Jon returning to Winterfell, but also a lovely evolution of Sansa and Arya’s relationship since they reconciled last season. Maybe Arya hides faces in Sansa’s closet: *Sansa gasps* “Seven hells Arya, stop doing that!” Or, like awkward conversations during dinner with Bran who always dredges up the past. Ok, maybe not that exactly but just some scenes where the family begins to reconnect with each other.

        Quote  Reply

    20. I guess the producers/cast don’t have any qualms about letting some previous cast members in on the ending. Natalie joins Jason and Kristian, both of whom also reportedly know at least some details about season 8. Lucky bastards! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    21. Natalie had an earlier interview with the Irish Sun saying, “I was told the ending by someone on the show and even though I know how it does, I am just dying to see how they get there.” I believe she’s talking about how the creators will have set in motion whatever they have cooked up, going from point A to point B.

      Like for example if Sansa ends up ruling with Tyrion, how would they get there? Or Arya taking a last stand against the white walkers, like how did she end up alone and the last person standing 🙂 its fun to speculate. Please don’t end with the white walkers winning, anything other than that would be tolerable.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Dark Sister,

      So agree! I really hope to see some wonderful bonding moments between the sisters. Actually, in my head canon, I have this scenario that Arya took the face of LF and uses it to prank Sansa now and then.

      Arya (as LF): “I love you, Sansa. Chaos is a laddah, Sansa.”
      Sansa: “Stop it, Arya!”

      Seriously though, I think there’s a good chance Arya will save Sansa, and/or be instrumental in protecting her during the war. Probably Bran too.

        Quote  Reply

    23. BeardedOnion,

      You are my spirit vegetable.

      BeardedOnion:

      There is a very nasty side to some fans, I’m afraid, and it isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

      I’m stocking up on my beer and popcorn supplies in 2019.

      Jbird:

      “B” for Bastard

      What character does “Bastard” apply to?

      Clob:

      Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess coined by talvikorppi a few months back

      It should be Arya Super Traumatized Psychologically Damaged Child Soldier, really.

        Quote  Reply

    24. Mr Derp,

      Except no one is saying that a majority of the fan base is misogynistic. People are saying that the minority of toxic fans in the fanbase are vocal and very loud so their presence holds much more weight than it should.

      And also, WOTW is NOT indivicative or the entire fanbase nor would I say it’s even an accurate sample. The vast majority of the contributors and posters on this site are well-mannered and adequately versed in this particular universe to carry meaningful discussions. I’m sure you’ve seen many comments on YouTube that sing a much different tune. And it wouldn’t be fair to take those comments to heart either. Point being, we can’t gauge public interest and overall acceptance based on one site’s data.

        Quote  Reply

    25. BeardedOnion,

      About the difference between Stannis burning those people and Dany burning the slavers has one big point. Stannis, even when his deeds were evil as hell, and more evil than Dany’s, there’s one big difference in the decision making. Stannis always acted (need to find the right word) down to earth/ logical or something, can’t really find the right word in English. He made a calculated decision with it, he weighted the odds. The fans never loved him, they only found him somehow interesting.
      With Dany it was different story, her decision at that moment was impulsive, she didn’t think it through. She acted without thinking, she even refused Baristan’s advice.

      And don’t forget the moment Stannis become desperate and took it too far, even his fans left him. (at least the show version)

      Yes there are some fans who are misogynistic, but every fanbase has that. But don’t blame the makers of this show for that, because they put some amazing female characters to the screen. Cercei, Arya, Brienne, the list goes on, even Sansa is amazing female character if you compare it to other shows. And I find it strange that people who acuse others of misogynism, they always have issues with shows like GoT but not with shows like Greys anatomy (Which I love to watch), where the only real story of the woman are relationship stuff. And at the same time they mind when GoT show woman in a sexual way, but when other stories do the same with men (supernatural, Magic mike movie etc) there’s no problem at all.

      I myself are progressive as can be, and always fight for equal rights for all, but I never understand the complaining that happened with for instance GoT.

      About A to B: I’m wondering why she knows it, and Jason for instance. I hope we don’t get a fairy tale ending where we gonna see some afterlife stuff.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Edward,

      I always learned that best thing to do is just ignore them. If you give them attention they will stay. The only reason those vocal minority has any saying at all is because people give them attention and reaction.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Mr Derp:
      This is what happens when people assume that internet and social media trolls speak for the rest of us.

      Of course misogyny exists in this world.Always has and it probably always will.Does that mean a majority of GoT fans are that way?No, it doesn’t.At least, not the GoT fans I know and speak to.Perhaps some of you need to stop surrounding yourselves with misogynistic friends if you know so many of them.Hell, I know some people that want Sansa to “win” simply because she is a woman.Should I be as up in arms about that as some of you are about certain fans wanting a man to win simply due to gender?Something tells me those complaints would fall on deaf ears.

      I’d have to say that sometimes the internet/trolls/vocal minority wins. I’ve been following a lot of different fandoms and I’ve noticed that female characters who are polarizing are more likely to be written off a show than their male counterparts. Like Andrea from the Walking Dead or Laurel Lance from Arrow. These characters are deemed unlikable for different reasons, some valid, some aren’t.

      But what truly bothers me is how fast a fandom can turn on a female character, to a point where it starts to feel like a witch hunt, you’ll read stuff like “kill her off already,” or “this bitch is so annoying.” The reality is that men can get away with a lot of things, both in real life and in fiction. Things are changing a bit now but still it remains that it is easier for men to be morally gray characters, while women less so.

      Arya said it best “the world doesn’t just let girls decide what they’re going to be.”

        Quote  Reply

    28. Hodors Bastard,

      Wasn’t that what happened in S6 and 7 though? Sansa allowed Littlefinger to worm his way into her mindset, and distrusted her own family. Not telling Jon she even met with LF, taking LF’s comments on board that Jon’s wildling army would be HIS, not hers, and eventually not letting him know about the Vale. Then in S7, her low key resentment of Jon, her fight with Arya etc. All of that was from LF. And now? It’s over. She chose her family. She had LF executed. It’s done.

      She’s had her two seasons of being morally murky. If that continues, I’ll be furious tbh, because I haven’t enjoyed that part of her character arc.

      And fwiw, yeah, sexism is a thing in this fandom. Of course it is. Is Dany arrogant? Sure. It’s one of her flaws, but she solidly had the wind taken out of her by the death of one of her dragons. She was humble in her interaction with Jon as he lay injured in the boat, no longer sure if she deserved his fealty. In the dragon pit, she regrets her choices and speaks of being ordinary without dragons.

      It was a poor writing choice, I think, to have her do her big self-belief speech to Jon, a character people love for his humility. The contrast was too stark, and it was unflattering to her. But come on. Stannis was so arrogant and entitled he killed his own daughter. Never see him being called out for his enormous ego.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Edward,

      Except no one here is saying anything about the decibel level of toxic fans. The way some people generalize you’d think that 99% of GoT fans are misogynistic. That’s what I’m referring to. Obviously there’s a lot of idiots out there, but they dont have any power until people start paying attention to them.

      It’s really not hard to ignore toxic fans and pretend they don’t exist. I find that’s a much more effective way of neutralizing their moronic beliefs than constantly responding to them and giving them attention, which they crave more than anything.

      Why does their presence hold more weight than it should anyway? Just because they are loud doesn’t mean they have to be given any attention. The best and most effective way to get rid of a troll is to ignore them. Responding to them and giving them attention is exactly what gives them the power to hold more weight then they should. So, in effect, the people responding to them are giving them the power to keep on trolling. Just ignore them and they will eventually disappear into their parents’ basement or see the light and change.

      Also, the poll was mostly WOTW, but I believe that it was also distributed to WIC, Reddit, and other places. It’s obviously just a sample size, but the results cannot be dismissed either.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Mr Derp,

      That’s the thing with vocal minorities, they’ll be as monstrous as they possibly can until they elicit a reaction. It’s not too hard to ignore I agree, but there comes a point where conflict is inevitable. And even then, ignoring them doesn’t exactly make them go away either. So it’s kind of a lose-lose situation in that regard.

      As far as the results go, you have a point. They should be considered but still taken with a grain of salt.

        Quote  Reply

    31. So, I’ve just rewatched seasons one and two and I must say, if we do not have a Cersei-Sansa “reunion” in season 8, I’m going to riot. They have to meet again and share dialogue. So much history between those two.

      I’m not going to get into the writing for Sansa, I think Sean C. has really eloquently summed it up many times on these boards and I agree with him on the issue.

      I’ll just say this. It is sad that we haven’t truly seen Sansa’s kindness and empathy in the show. Also I would have liked to see her develop her political skills on screen with an interesting plot and of course character-wise the conclusion with LF last season was a huge letdown for me. Had to read the newest Alayne chapter from WoW again afterwards to feel better 🙂

      Still, I’m looking forward to season 8, hoping for some good scenes and dialogue with Tyrion, Cersei and Dany. Bring on the steel age! #from porcelain to ivory to steel (thx, Dark Sister!)

      Also..
      “Remember how many haters Sansa had those first few seasons?”
      Those first few seasons, David? Have you been to this comment section the last couple of years? 😀

        Quote  Reply

    32. “She’s a real, true leader of Winterfell now. And that’s where we first see her – as a very protective, empowered lady in charge. It’s the first time you ever see her like that, and it’s so amazing to see her like that – kind of owning her destiny,” says Sophie.

      ————
      Wait… Is she saying that’s going to be Sansa’s character in S8, or is this a reiteration of the “savvy politician” we were told about but weren’t shown in S7?

        Quote  Reply

    33. Pigeon:
      I really miss Margaery/Natalie. She was smart, strong, and a great example of a person who, although not in a position to really control their future, adapted to take what control she could in a situation, and appeal to the love of the ‘common’ folk. Already successful with roles in shows like The Tudors, she’ll be a force.

      I’m sure I’ve said this before…
      If you like Natalie Dormer, try to check out her guest appearances as Irene Adler to Jonny Lee Miller’s Sherlock Holmes in “Elementary” on CBS.

        Quote  Reply

    34. When one thinks about Sansa, while I ignore how ‘meh’ I find her story, it does seem very likely that she will end up in an important position. I for one have never truly thought she will die, even if at times I wouldn’t have minded just to get her out of the way. That isn’t saying I hate her, just that I prefer more of other characters. 🙂 Anyway, I’ve never thought she’d end up Queen, but even if a possibility it’s gotta be Wardeness of the North or some equivalent, right?

        Quote  Reply

    35. Vally: So, I’ve just rewatched seasons one and two and I must say, if we do not have a Cersei-Sansa “reunion” in season 8, I’m going to riot. They have to meet again and share dialogue. So much history between those two.

      They spoke about each other far too often last season to never meet again. Given the writers’ tendency to omit detail they deem irrelevant, the fact that Cersei and Sansa remained preoccupied by one another must’ve been deliberate.

      We even have these potentially foreshadowing lines from them:

      Cersei – “My only venture at this moment is re-establishing control over this continent and every person on it…. I too would like them to recover some things that belong to me”;
      Sansa – “I will not set foot in King’s Landing while Cersei Lannister is Queen”.

      If we posit that Cersei still believes in the prophecy about her fate and the “younger, more beautiful” rival to cast her down, then it’s only logical that she would still be intent on seeing Sansa dead, even after finding out that she had nothing to do with Joffrey’s death.

      Even if you believe that Daenerys will be rival Queen who will eventually cast her down, there’s no reason why Cersei would not wish to cover all bases and eliminate all those that may fit the bill. Especially since Season 7 started with Cersei declaring that “Ned Stark’s bastard has been named King in the North and that murdering whore Sansa stands beside him”.

      Sansa is now in a position that makes her one of Cersei’s rivals. I don’t expect Cersei to ignore that fact, so I can picture them coming face to face once more.

      Regarding Sansa’s kindness, I think a lot of it was buried in little moments and scenes that people readily overlook. Consistently throughout the seasons they’ve included small moments of courtesy and kindness that I don’t think we see from any other character on the show.

      In some instances it’s quite explicit, such as making Jon the Stark cloak, and yet I’ll still see comments from people saying that they’ve never seen Sansa do anything selfless or kind. It’s

        Quote  Reply

    36. Edward,

      I think we can probably assume that the season will start with Jon and Daenerys arriving at Winterfell, where they will find Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and acting ruler of The North.

      I think in the early episodes she could be key to quelling any festering Northern resentment towards Jon and Dany.

      That’s probably where the protective and empowered elements will come into play.

        Quote  Reply

    37. aiad,

      OMG DO NOT GET ME STARTED … IVE ALWAYS DEFENDED SANSA RIGHT FROM SEASON 1 … maybe that’s because In some way that was me growing up … my folks presented life to me on a bed of roses and I grew up thinking the world was about love and honour and beauty and then I went to college and LIFE BITCHSLAPPED ME HARDCORE …. so when I watched Sansa go through the same thing I wasn’t sitting there going “oh you naive little idiot” I was thinking oh hun I know what you’re going through hopefully you will learn from all these cruel twits around you and she did … HER SKIN HAS TURNED FROM PORCELAIN TO IVORY TO STEEL
      And yes she is the most real/relatable character on the show because to some extent we all went through what Sansa went through except she’s had it way worse
      To be honest I think Sophie actually went through the same thing and you can see it in her performance … she’s actually grown up on screen the same way Emma Watson grew up with the potter series and began to embody Hermione Granger in her day to day life … the same sadly cannot be said for Maise’s Character Arya … while Maisie has definitely grown her character has become more unreal as each season passes by but then again maybe I just can’t relate cuz I haven’t seen my folks killed nor have I turned into a vengeful sociopath

        Quote  Reply

    38. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Regarding Sansa’s kindness, I think a lot of it was buried in little moments and scenes that people readily overlook. Consistently throughout the seasons they’ve included small moments of courtesy and kindness that I don’t think we see from any other character on the show.

      In some instances it’s quite explicit, such as making Jon the Stark cloak, and yet I’ll still see comments from people saying that they’ve never seen Sansa do anything selfless or kind. It’s

      I don’t think Sansa’s been particularly distinguished by kindness on the show relative to most characters, but in respect of the particular moment you cite, while in general I unquestionably agree that the character has always been judged more severely than others, I’d also submit that such moments may not register much because of the broader context in which they occur, i.e., Sansa’s extremely muddled motivations. We see Sansa make Jon a cloak, but we also just saw her tell him a huge lie about a vital strategic question for no reason beyond apparently distrusting him because the evilest guy in the room insinuated she shouldn’t. That necessarily casts anything else she does into question.

      Sansa’s development on the show, particularly in the seasons derived primarily from the writers’ own conception, has positioned her as terse, blunt to the frequent point of rudeness, and ruthless to the point of mercilessness. Most obviously in the Season 7 premiere, where she’s used as the foil to Jon’s desire to let the Karstark/Umber children keep their land, a scenario that could scarcely be more heavily weighted to make her look anything but kind. And as I said at the time, I think Sansa’s position in that debate is wholly defensible as a realpolitik position, on its own terms (whether or not the show acknowledged that) — but it’s definitely not the position of a character for whom kindness is meant to be a distinguishing feature.

        Quote  Reply

    39. “If viewers were able to empathize with Jaime when he saved Brienne from Locke’s entourage in season 3, then they should have been able to empathize with Sansa after she saved Dontos from Joffrey’s cruelty in season 2.”

      BrienneBabe: I gotta say, David, good one.

      Every pointed finger dispels the fog obscuring subtle levels of misogyny such as this.

      Apples and oranges. It was energising to see Sansa courageously outwit Joffrey’s cruelty by ‘declawing’ him with her explanation. And Joffrey could have inflicted some retributive cruelty on her, but neither in public nor on his name day. Jaime, however, rode back into danger and, with one hand and a festering stump, faced a baited bear with four good claws . The fact he wasn’t killed was a miracle (I remain skeptical of a one-handed man climbing a ladder). But it was sad in Season 4 when Sansa just accepted Littlefinger’s explanation for killing Ser Dontos after rescuing her and seemingly did not give it another thought. I wonder if she ever realised that LF also helped frame her for Joffrey’s murder. Well done, Baelish, you finally got possession of the girl by letting her be attainted for regicide.

        Quote  Reply

    40. One of my favorite scenes was when Sansa Stark saved Lord Petyr Baelish’s ass from Lord Yohn Royce, Lady Anya Waynwood and Ser Vance Corbray after Petyr Baelish killed Sansa’ aunt Lysa Arryn.

      I like Sansa character best in Season 4 & 5

        Quote  Reply

    41. Here’s is my current Azor Ahai theory/prediction…

      Lady Sansa Stark is finally the official Lady of Winterfell… the Queen of the North. The Night Kings army attacks Winterfell so Tyrion Lannister aka: Azor Ahai jumps up on a spare dragon and burns Winterfell to the ground… which is like stabbing Tyrion’s wife Queen of the North Sansa Stark trough the heart.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Pretending to like someone so she can get their armies/support/military strength is what Sansa was doing with Littlefinger. Just like every other character on this show. Mock romance/interest is a theme D&D return to, over and over again. Except Sansa isnt doing it for selfish reasons, otherwise she would have planned a coup while Jon was away. I doubt she was ever truly going to betray her family. The Karstark/Umber situation was her trying to toughen Jon up. After facing so many betrayals, it makes sense that she would be cautious. Despite this, I’m glad Jon made the call he did.

      What I love about Sansa is that she’s got the most character growth/development in the entire show. The Sansa we see now speaks her mind just like Catelyn. She has a good sense of political dynamics. She will be an asset!

      I can’t wait to see her wear the Lady’s mask for Dany in S8. This interview has me even more excited for where she’ll end up next season.

        Quote  Reply

    43. firstone:
      One of my favorite scenes was when Sansa Stark saved Lord Petyr Baelish’s ass from Lord Yohn Royce, Lady Anya Waynwood and Ser Vance Corbray after Petyr Baelish killed Sansa’ aunt Lysa Arryn.

      I like Sansa character best in Season 4 & 5

      Well, one ass saving deserves another, I suppose. Sansa probably isn’t too fond of heights by now. 😜 That was a great scene that kind of launched into nowhere. 😕

        Quote  Reply

    44. I am a Sophie fan but I think she has a bit of selective memory when it comes to Sophie-hate. Yes people hated her in season 1 and possibly in 2 but I remember there were most converts started liking her in season 3 when she was around Margery, Shae, and how she dealt with the Red Wedding and her marriage to Tyrion. But in Season 4 – long before the rape in Season 5 – Sophie was bragging about how everyone loved badass ‘Darth’ Sansa. Sansa, like all of the characters in GOT, is a good person but also horribly flawed. And you can’t say anyone who went through what she and Arya did are going to be 100% normal after it. Arya is still a favorite despite being about to murder without thinking twice.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Pigeon: Well, one ass saving deserves another, I suppose. Sansa probably isn’t too fond of heights by now. 😜 That was a great scene that kind of launched into nowhere. 😕

      I know! After the Vale inquest, when Sansa descended down the staircase in her new dress and new hairdo looking like Cat 2.0 and said to LF, “Shall we go?”, I thought we were going to witness the little bird finally spreading her wings and taking off.

      Instead … she agreed to LF’s stupid “plan” and spent S5 as Ramsay’s crash test dummy.

        Quote  Reply

    46. firstone,

      Melisandre: “He is the Lord’s Chosen.”
      Renly: “Is he a ham?
      Hot Pie: “Face like a half-burned ham.”
      Pod: “The Hound”
      Hot Pie: “That’s the one.”

      #SandorAhai
      🐓🐓. 🔥🗡

        Quote  Reply

    47. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Edward,

      I think we can probably assume that the season will start with Jon and Daenerys arriving at Winterfell, where they will find Sansa as Lady of Winterfell and acting ruler of The North.

      I think in the early episodes she could be key to quelling any festering Northern resentment towards Jon and Dany.

      And Jon will likely need this. When the Northern Lords and the Vale get wind that Jon is basically The King Who Knelt 2.0, they will NOT take it very well, at least initially.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Mr Derp:
      * Another Sansa article, another misogyny argument breaking out.How unpredictable and refreshing.

      “I know A to B. I know what B is, but I don’t know how they get B. But I do know B.”

      * I really hope people won’t over analyze that B must stand for something specific or cryptic.

      Damn, season 8 can’t come soon enough.

      Derp!

      I think she’s talking about point A and point B, how would the show runners set into motion point B, whatever that is. Like for example Sansa and Tyrion ruling in the end or Arya taking a last stand against the white walkers, like what might occur that would lead Arya to be the last person standing? these are just examples.

      Natalie in an earlier interview for the Irish Sun said, “I was told the ending by someone on the show and even though I know how it does, I am just dying to see how they get there.”

        Quote  Reply

    49. Not a fan of the Sansa character at all, she’s still that annoying little sister type in my eyes but try to respect the views and opinions of others. I take from the soundbite that she will not be happy to see Jon return with a foreign invader and promises to bend the knee etc. I suspect that drama will subside in an episode or two though.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Jon Snowed,

      Yes, I’m also interested to see how that plays out. Especially, we have to assume months have gone by where Sansa has been running things, so it’ll be interesting to see how/if she relinquishes that power. She already did seem annoyed by the raven Jon sent her saying he pledged himself to Dany’s cause. And HBO shared the full letter he sent where he signs off “Warden of the North.” She wasn’t happy at all that he made the decision without consulting anyone in the North, I.e. her. But I don’t think we’ll go down the road of an extended sibling rivalry again.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Sansa’s Knight,

      I don’t think you had the opportunity to talk to Daughter of Winter, he doestn’t come to this site any longer. I miss him, he was an enthusiastic fan.
      He was a keen supporter of Sansa and, even if I couldn’t share his high opinion (I don’t like her, but I coudn’t stand see her abused), I like his gentle way of rooting for a favourite character.
      You’re right, there is some Sansa in every child whose parents protected them too much and the awakening is not at all pleasant.

        Quote  Reply

    52. I’m pretty sure all the characters have their own particular brand of active haters and I guess we fans of whatever characters we personally like the most should become better at ignoring these haters. However, sometimes it’s simply a way to pass time to react to them. After all, it will be a while until we get to see “B” in season 8.

      As for Sophie Turner, I think she has done a very good job acting wise from season 5 and onwards and I see Sansa like I see nearly all of the characters: complex, real, flawed, good and bad etc. Just like human beings usually are.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Ten Bears,

      I know! After the Vale inquest, when Sansa descended down the staircase in her new dress and new hairdo looking like Cat 2.0 and said to LF, “Shall we go?”, I thought we were going to witness the little bird finally spreading her wings and taking off.

      Instead … she agreed to LF’s stupid “plan” and spent S5 as Ramsay’s crash test dummy.

      And, is it just me? When Sansa came down those stairs, in her new threads, was she not wearing “Big Brother’s” Power of Veto around her neck?!?! WTH? And for that matter, why didn’t she use it to excuse herself from Ramsey’s clutches? I may watch too much TV…

        Quote  Reply

    54. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Hi honey, lovely to ‘see’ you too *lots of waves as always*. Do we know what happened to Daughter of Winter? I was just wondering about him the other day. Did I miss something or did he just stop posting? Last I recall he had exams coming up and was hoping to get into some college or job as a result.

      Mr Derp,
      I hope every remaining episode scores very highly on the Bloody Hell!ometer. In a good way of course, not bloody hell why did I bother. As we have no firm idea what’s coming up content wise in each I’ll be more than happy if any of them have that title. And fingers crossed they can get Bloody Hell 2: Electric Boogaloo in there somewhere 😉

        Quote  Reply

    55. Lulus Mum,

      I don’t know anything. I hope he’s OK. As far as I know, he just stopped posting. I know many of us disappear for a while for various reasons (guilty!), but it’s been a long time since his last post. If I recall correctly, he missed the whole season 7.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Dark Sister:
      Clob,

      BeardedOnion,

      Yes, exactly! I don’t think BrienneBabe was speaking just to that particular scene but to many moments in GoT where female characters are subject to HARSH criticisms that I have yet to see the male characters experience. While Sansa did replace the Jeyne Poole storyline who had horrific experiences under Ramsay, women criticised the fact that rape has been used as a tool to progress Sansa’s character. And Sophie said it herself, there were fans saying she deserved it. Obviously, you can dislike female characters but there’s a difference between being a fan with valid criticisms and fans who think someone deserved to get raped. There are definitely undertones of misogyny and sexism in comments within the fan base, unfortunately.

      Anyways, I can’t wait to see season 8 Sansa. By the sound of it, she’s in the “Steel” stage. #from porcelain to ivory to steel

      Agree as well, fact is that men can get away with a lot of things, both in real life and in fiction. Women less so and I’ve followed a lot of fandoms, and sometimes the trolls/vocal minority on the internet win. For example, Andrea from the Walking Dead and Arrow’s Laurel Lance, were subjected to much vitriol. Criticizing is one thing but sometimes it turns into a witch hunt, with the vocal minority calling for the character to be written off the show and succeeding.

      Morally gray characters in GoT like Stannis, Jamie even Tywin Lannister for a time are considered tolerable even likable. But protagonists like Sansa, and at times Dany, get criticized easily when tackling morally gray areas. Arya said it best in S7 “the world doesn’t just let girls decide what they’re going to be.”

        Quote  Reply

    57. Lulus Mum,

      Now that we’re talking about love for a character or another, I don’t recall what’s your favourite character… except for Giant Flying Penguins 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    58. Ten Bears: I know! After the Vale inquest, when Sansa descended down the staircase in her new dress and new hairdo looking like Cat 2.0 and said to LF, “Shall we go?”, I thought we were going to witness the little bird finally spreading her wings and taking off.

      Instead … she agreed to LF’s stupid “plan” and spent S5 as Ramsay’s crash test dummy.

      They do the same thing every season finale. Character scenes end on a misdirect.

      Thats why Dany’s dialogue in S7 about saving the north is doubtful because it was her last line of dialogue.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Killer penguins, Your Shyness, there’s a crucial difference! 😉

      I don’t actually have anything approaching a fave. I like characters for all kinds of reasons, they don’t have to be particularly interesting or contribute much to the story, and some I can’t stand but are fascinating.

      On the whole the people I root for are the nice ones – as much as anyone is in a society like that. I’ve mentioned before I’m really not a fantasy fan, so the Night King and dragons don’t register with me at all because I can’t suspend disbelief for them. If you’ve watched Westworld they are my “That doesn’t look like anything to me” equivalent. What about you?

        Quote  Reply

    60. Lulus Mum,

      I remember you’re not a fantasy fan and this speaks volumes for GOT’s power to appeal to various people, with various tastes. I am a fantasy fan, I feel it’s like swimming and leaving all troubles behind.
      So good that you watch Westworld, I love it, but I must say I preferred the first season.
      I can’t name a single favourite, there’s a whole bunch of them for me: Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, The Hound (I like to call him like this, thinking of the well-known qualities that make dogs favourite pets… but not before cats and dragons – I know, dragons are no pets, but trusted allies), Arya, Bronn, Davos, Oberyn, Olenna, Varys… the dragons, the direwolves… I’m stopping now for fear I might name half of the cast. From the beginning I’ve been a Stark supporter.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Myra Spivak,

      I hope you’re right, I’d love that. At least in the show (not so much in the books) they seemed to become friends before murder and danger separated them.
      Thinking that the War of the Roses ended with a York princess marrying the new Tudor king and Lancaster heir, GRRM could favour such an ending. Falling in love is a bit much to expect imo, but friendship and trust sound more than plausible. They have always been excellent reasons to start a marriage.

        Quote  Reply

    62. ash,

      Natalie made Margaery a really interesting character. I have first seen her in The Tudors and she seemed most suitable for Anne Boleyn. I also liked her in The Hunger Games and now I’m watching In Darkness, glad to admire her in roles where seduction plays no part.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Vally: I’ll just say this. It is sad that we haven’t truly seen Sansa’s kindness and empathy in the show. Also I would have liked to see her develop her political skills on screen with an interesting plot and of course character-wise the conclusion with LF last season was a huge letdown for me. Had to read the newest Alayne chapter from WoW again afterwards to feel better 🙂

      I agree, on all points. The show’s early depiction of Sansa lopped off several dimensions of the personality the books revealed, leaving a whinging, idiotic brat who was pretty unlikable. I don’t think that was unintended on D&D’s part – I suspect they initially wanted to mute Sansa’s finer qualities, so that a large chunk of the audience would be predisposed to dislike and suspect her. They needed that audience mistrust in the latter part of S6 and throughout S7 to create dramatic tension by baiting the audience to expect that Sansa would betray Jon/Arya/The North.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Gwidhiel,
      Mmm… I don’t think that I’m entirely convinced D&D knew in the first 3-4 seasons exactly what they were going to do with Sansa after they got her to the Eyrie (through her books material) until they got down to writing S5, then 6, then 7. Perhaps they had a solid outline or a few options, but I’m not sure in the early stages of the show they already had the plan to adapt Jeyne Poole’s arc into Sansa’s and all that came after. I have some cloudy recollections of them talking about their decisions for the character in S5 that make me think they weren’t planned early in the show. So, having her do things in the first couple of seasons to set up how viewers would feel about a specific situation in season 7 isn’t believable to me.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Clob,

      I don’t think they needed to know exactly what they’d be doing with Sansa’s story in later seasons to decide that it would be advantageous to portray her early on in a way that wouldn’t earn her many fans (although I can see how it appeared as though I was saying that in the post above).

      I think it served their purpose to have an unlikable Stark sibling at the outset of the story, since the others were all pretty clearly going to be audience darlings for different reasons. Having *all* the Stark kids, and Jon Snow, be likable (if foolish at times) would have had some (many?) people rolling their eyes. So they muted Sansa’s love of reading and history, her remarkable charm and empathy, and how very observant she was – they didn’t strip her of those qualities, necessarily, they just didn’t let the audience see them. They only showed us Sansa’s spoiled entitlement and trusting naivete. And it was effective – I certainly didn’t like Sansa at all in the first two seasons of the show. She was such a dope.

      And then once they realized they were going to have Sansa’s storyline intersect with Jon’s, they had a ready-made, wide-spread dislike of Sansa at their disposal (because many people didn’t update their understanding of her once they’d written her off as uninteresting and annoying), which they deliberately stoked to foster suspicions that she was power-hungry and treacherous.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Enharmony1625:
      Flora Linden,

      I also agree. Arya to be Queen..

      About Arya becoming queen after “sailing west”…

      Another commenter – sorry, I forget who – suggested Arya would go on a voyage to import chocolate back to the post-apocalyptic kingdoms.

      So here’s how I’d envision the set-up for that.
      (FanFic Warning ⚠️:

      (Hot Pie & Arya af Crossroads Inn)

      Arya: “Mmm! This is really good! What is it?”
      Hot Pie: “Chocolate layer cake with fudge icing.”
      Arya. “How did you make it? Show me how. I want to be able to do it too.”
      Hot Pie: “If you would learn, you must get cacao for me.”
      Arya. “Where?”
      Hot Pie: Far and away across the Narrow Sea in the New World, a place called Ecuador.
      Arya: “Sounds great! When do we leave?”
      Hot Pie: “We”? Is it “we” already?”

        Quote  Reply

    67. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Favorite characters? Let’s see…

      1. Arya Stark
      2. Arry
      3. A Girl aka Lovely Girl
      4. Sandor
      5. Syrio Forel
      6. Ygritte
      7. Margaery
      8. Jorah
      9. Hot Pie
      10. Beric
      11. Kinvara
      12. Pre-S5 Bronn
      13. Pre-S6 Tyrion
      14. Lady Crane
      15. Thoros
      16. Davos
      17. Yoren
      18. Pre-S6 Stannis
      19. Tormund
      20. Varys

        Quote  Reply

    68. Myra Spivak,

      I think in the books, Sansa thinks about the Hound more than she does in the show… Sansa might change the Hounds opinion of Gingers or at least one Ginger.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Clob,
      Gwidhiel,

      I believe it was between season 2 and season 3 that Dan and Dave were told by George his plans for the endgame, including the fates of all the main characters. There was a big interview panel conducted around season 3 with D&D, George, and all the main cast on it where I distinctly recall Benioff saying that George had told them the ending. From that I think we can assume that they at least had the broad strokes in place, if not the finer details of how they were going to arrive at major plot points they wanted to hit.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Ten Bears,

      I believe it was Firannion who commented on that. And it was “dark” chocolate to be specific. Then I later added that Arya should name it “Stark” chocolate.

      By the way, if anyone from HBO is reading this, you’re welcome. I’ll take 5%. 🙂

      I mean, who wouldn’t want Stark chocolate? I would wolf that sh*t down so fast. Ok.. I’ll stop now.

        Quote  Reply

    71. tinfoilbitch,

      Are you kidding me? Outside of tumblr and Quora, you hardly find much support for Sansa (reddit and westeros.org being the two mains ones I know of that demonize her).

      And suffering should not be a competition (yes I know some Sansa fans do do this, but I would say the same thing to them, I am saying to you). They have all suffered, just in different ways – “how” one has felt pain should not counted as being less than others.

      I’m trying to remind myself every day that the vocal minority does not represent the general likability of the character. Thank you to who ever mentioned it already somewhere up in the comments.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Earlier I definitely disliked Sansa–found her irritating and infuriating, very difficult to relate to. Now? She’s in my “meh” middle…don’t HATE her, but at the same time still haven’t really found reason to like her. I’m sorry about the horrific things that’ve happened to the girl. Sophie’s acting I think is usually adequate-to-good, maybe occasionally great.
      I sympathize with, like, and/or understand numerous characters, male and female, whose flaws are severe and whose actions and/or motives have been questionable to say the very least. Don’t take gender into account. I also don’t view Arya as a sociopath at all. She’s the Stark with whom I identify not because I’ve been in her position, but because we have the most in common personality/values-wise and I imagine that most of my choices would be much more in line with hers than with Sansa’s, WERE I in this situation. Thus far I don’t think Arya’s done anything I found very objectionable; each time she scratched a name from the list, the world became that little bit better, and a slice of delectable justice pie was served (and in some cases I might not have gone so easy on the marks. ;p)

        Quote  Reply

    73. Shelle:
      Earlier I definitely disliked Sansa–found her irritating and infuriating, very difficult to relate to. Now? She’s in my “meh” middle…don’t HATE her, but at the same time still haven’t really found reason to like her. I’m sorry about the horrific things that’ve happened to the girl. Sophie’s acting I think is usually adequate-to-good, maybe occasionally great.
      I sympathize with, like, and/or understand numerous characters, male and female, whose flaws are severe and whose actions and/or motives have been questionable to say the very least. Don’t take gender into account. I also don’t view Arya as a sociopath at all. She’s the Stark with whom I identify not because I’ve been in her position, but because we have the most in common personality/values-wise and I imagine that most of my choices would be much more in line with hers than with Sansa’s, WERE I in this situation. Thus far I don’t think Arya’s done anything I found very objectionable; each time she scratched a name from the list, the world became that little bit better, and a slice of delectable justice pie was served (and in some cases I might not have gone so easy on the marks. ;p)

      I fully agree with everything.

        Quote  Reply

    74. My interpretation is the ending will be somewhat unexpected. So we can realistically rule out Dany on the throne, White Walkers winning and other popular theories.

      It does make me wonder if Dany does finally break bad or someone unexpected end on the throne.

        Quote  Reply

    75. ygritte,

      Nice talking to you again, Ygritte! Btw, I do like both Jon and Ygritte and wish/wished all the best for them, but somehow they are not among my favourites.
      Yoren was a funny, brave and loyal man of the Nightswatch, whose job was to recruit men (read: deliver prisoners). He was the one who protected Arya, advised her to pretend to be a boy and meant to take her north, but was killed defending his recruits when the Goldcloaks were looking for Gendry.
      There was a touching scene when Arya couldn’t sleep, thinking at her father’s execution, and Yoren told her about his avenging his brother (Yoren had to take the black because of this killing) and how he used to repeat the name of his brother’s killer. That’s how Arya got the idea of repeating her list.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Shy Lady Dragon,
      Looking at what others have said I think most of my faves are actually sidekicks and minor characters rather than the main ones. If at least one of Brienne, Pod and Davos doesn’t make it I shall be inconsolable. Unless of course everyone dies, in which case it doesn’t matter who you root for. I don’t mind fantasy, but I can’t get really emotionally involved with it the way I can with more ‘realistic’ stuff. Same with horror; things which I don’t believe exist or aren’t possible don’t scare me, plausible horror does.

      Clob,
      ASNAWP certainly has a huge fan base. I guess for a lot of people it’s because she gets to do things that young girls virtually never do in other stories. Perhaps we could come up with acronyms which match each character’s name. Arya could be Awesome Rebel Young Assassin say. Ramsay…Rapist Awful Murdering Sadistic Arrogant Youth? This could keep us going for a while. Can anyone remember who’s got the longest or most unusual name for a bit of a challenge?

        Quote  Reply

    77. Clob,

      Nor has she done something as bad as throw a child from a tower.
      She hasn’t really done all that much wrong at all really. Especially in a world full of rapists, murderers etc.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Lulus Mum,

      I don’t think everyone dies… who’s supposed to dream about spring?
      Pod! I forgot about sweet gentle Pod, the whores’ delight. Somehow I don’t worry for him. I don’t know about Davos. I’m afraid for Brienne and so sure that Jaime will die, that I don’t even fear his death. I want him to die with honour and have a little bit of happiness with Brienne before. I think he is meant to die in the arms of the woman he loves, as he said to Bronn not knowing yet that he was supposed to mean Brienne, not Cersei. I’ll still cry buckets, I know, I’ll have to buy a decent quantity of Lowenbrau, the German beer with a lion on the bottle.
      I have a mysterious character with a great acronym for you: Quaithe.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Shy Lady Dragon:
      Lulus Mum,

      I don’t think everyone dies… who’s supposed to dream about spring?

      The viewers? If everyone involved in the fighting died – human and otherwise – it would certainly be a lot quieter! Quite Unusual And Interesting, Thought Highly Enigmatic?

        Quote  Reply

    80. Lulus Mum: Quite Unusual And Interesting, Thought HighlyEnigmatic?

      Wow! You’re certainly gifted for acronyms!
      I might have misspelled her name, not so sure that’s an U there…
      But no, there must be some last men standing… and bloody Sneakers Arya, won’t she, Ten Bears?

        Quote  Reply

    81. My sincere wish is to see no Iron Throne by the end of GoT. Our lord and saviour GRRM, is known for subverting fantasy tropes so I hope we don’t see a secret male heir rule in the end, I.e. Arag…I mean Jon. Haha but seriously, I do love Jon and Dany, I just personally would like to see a transition from the monarchy. I’m hoping that’s one of the surprises for S8.

      #downwiththecrown #powertothepeoplecomestowesteros

        Quote  Reply

    82. Shy Lady Dragon:
      Lulus Mum,

      I don’t think everyone dies… who’s supposed to dream about spring?

      The babies conceived during S7 and S8… gathered and raised by Ghost and Nymeria. This will explain why the direwolves were kept away so long – they need to survive for this important role, and showing in front of the cameras wasn’t very healthy till now, expected to be even less so in the final season. A clean, Stark restart for the world 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    83. Enharmony1625,

      Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, rightful heir to the Iron Throne, rightful Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, the Mother of Dragons, the Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, the Breaker of Chains, the Savior of the Frozen Lake

        Quote  Reply

    84. Ten Bears,
      … Grand Advocate of the Boatsex. 😛
      I was going to say that Daenerys Targaryen alone is one of the longer names in the story.

      Ten Bears,
      You forgot to rank Mercy, Lanna, No One, and book characters, Horseface, Arya Underfoot, Lumpyhead, Lumpyface, Stickboy, Rabbitkiller, Weasel, ‘Nymeria,’ Nan, Squab, wolf girl, Salty, Cat of the Canals, Blind Beth, the blind girl and the ugly girl. 😀

        Quote  Reply

    85. Ten Bears,
      With all seriousness though, from the moment I got into the first book Arya has been my favorite character by far. Maisie being so friggin’ great has just reinforced and escalated it during the show’s run, so she’s my favorite cast member. While reading I just enjoyed her storyline the most and looked forward to her next chapter. On the show you can feel every emotion so well just looking at Maisie’s face. I could pull up a still of her expression in any of her scenes and that expression would be spot on for what Arya is saying, thinking, feeling, so along with everything else she’s able to maintain my full immersion in every scene.

      I’d have to say that on the show Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion have continued as my next favorites that I enjoyed reading. I really didn’t care for Davos much in the books (so far) but I do really like him on the show.

        Quote  Reply

    86. I hope Season 8 has as many unexpected surprises as possible… I want to see actions by characters that are out of character. D&D set it up for Sansa to maybe make a move or two like Cercie or Littlefinger. Maybe Sansa will go after Cercie?

      Cercie is going to try to kill Daenerys by doing something like Tywin would do and Tyrion has pretty much told Daenerys that already.

      I think Bronn will turn into a evil villain, surprisingly working with Cercie Lannister who is paying him more. I want to see Varys do something unexpected. Tyrion Lannister might have a few surprises up his sleeve. Jon Snow will probably just continue to be Jon Snow.

      The reunions should be epic… Tyrion and Sansa – The Hound and Sansa – The Hound and Arya – Arya and Jon Snow – Tyrion and Jamie in Winterfell – Bran and Jamie in Winterfell – Arya and Gendry – Brienne and Jamie is Winterfell.

      The characters have already done so much and there is only a few more things that they are going to do …. Season 8 is gonna be beyond description.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Clob:
      Ten Bears,
      With all seriousness though, from the moment I got into the first book Arya has been my favorite character by far.Maisie being so friggin’ great has just reinforced and escalated it during the show’s run, so she’s my favorite cast member.While reading I just enjoyed her storyline the most and looked forward to her next chapter.On the show you can feel every emotion so well just looking at Maisie’s face.I could pull up a still of her expression in any of her scenes and that expression would be spot on for what Arya is saying, thinking, feeling, so along with everything else she’s able to maintain my full immersion in every scene.

      Precisely my experience, Clob. And they slyly commended Maisie’s acting.in a Season 6 meta moment. Lady Crane said Arya would be good at acting and pointed out her expressive eyes. She sincerely invited Arya to join the troupe (which Arya does in the WoW “Mercy” chapter.) D&D would not have written that if they didn’t believe it.

      Kat,

      And you can’t say anyone who went through what she and Arya did are going to be 100% normal after it. Arya is still a favorite despite being about to murder without thinking twice.

      I agree with your whole post, Kat, other than the last few words. Yes, Sansa and Arya are damaged but not immoral. Arya is a Stark, and thus not about murder at all, but Justice. IF she has the luxury of time, she thinks twice, thrice, however long before she takes a life. It took her a fortnight to decide which Freys to invite to the Fatal Feast. If someone’s on her List, the deciding is done…with the exception of Sandor. She was capable of killing Tywin, the Insurance Man in Braavos, Lady Crane, innocent Freys, Littlefinger, Lannister soldiers looking into the Twins massacre, and of course Cersei. For different reasons, often mercy, she didn’t. She seems to have removed Beric, Thoros, and the Red Woman from her List and also has protected a lot of people (and one direwolf!) too. She took on a death cult to spare Lady Crane. She wouldn’t still be a favourite if she were a psychopathic murderer at heart. I like to say that Arya still wears her tender heart on her torn sleeve.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Stark Raven’ Rad: She … has protected a lot of people (and one direwolf!) too.

      She “protected” one direwolf only because another was killed in its place. I don’t think we can count that as a save. That day the Stark family lost two direwolves – one to death and the other to flight.

      ETA: If Lady hadn’t been on hand to satisfy Cersei’s bloodlust, I’m pretty sure there would have been a full-out hunt for Nymeria. Perhaps it wouldn’t have been successful, but in that case Cersei’s wish for vengeance would probably have shifted to Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    89. This probably isn’t a novel thought but it just occurred to me: Arya’s run-in with Joffrey was a preview of how things would go for Ned later in King’s Landing. Arya acted to do the right thing, without consideration for the station or the character of the person she was acting against. Joffrey’s station as the crown prince meant that he wouldn’t be held to the same standards of behavior that the Starks (and all decent people) espouse. Joffrey was also an immoral, vain bully and those two things – his character and his station – meant that even though Arya was in the right and trying to do the right thing, in the end things wouldn’t go well for her and hers because she’d tried to do the right thing without adequately sizing up her opponent and recognizing that the situation was rigged in Joffrey’s favor.

      Rinse, repeat with Ned and Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Gwidhiel: She “protected” one direwolf only because another was killed in its place. I don’t think we can count that as a save. That day the Stark family lost two direwolves – one to death and the other to flight.

      ETA: If Lady hadn’t been on hand to satisfy Cersei’s bloodlust, I’m pretty sure there would have been a full-out hunt for Nymeria. Perhaps it wouldn’t have been successful, but in that case Cersei’s wish for vengeance would probably have shifted to Arya.

      Correct. In the books, if you recall, Jaime says Cersei wanted Arya’s hand cut off! Show Cersei demanded Arya be punished. I think that’s when Robert said, “What do you want me to do? Have her whipped through the streets?” (NB–that was foreshadowing for Cersei’s Walk of Shame minus the whipping, and a punishment that apparently Cersei considered for Olenna.) Arya protected Nymeria because she was inevitably going to be killed. Would Sansa have lied for Joffrey if she thought for one minute Lady would be the proxy victim? Arya didn’t hold Sansa’s lie against her, but instead tried to protect Lady. She faced down Cersei and said, “Lady wasn’t there! Don’t you hurt her!” Arya had also tried to protect Mycah, She failed and later felt guilty about getting him killed, which Ned denied. People tend to focus on the violence, but even as a child Arya tried to protect those who needed protection AND to bring justice to those who deserved it. As a child she had little opportunity or ability to succeed, but she has had a better track record since Braavos.

        Quote  Reply

    91. OT: for Lena’s fans (I’m one of them), watch the fantasy romantic comedy Twice upon a Yesterday/ The Man with Rain in His Shoes (1998) to admire a young, gentle, brunette Lena. The film is built around the motif of getting a second chance by going back in time.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Stark Raven’ Rad: In the books, if you recall, Jaime says Cersei wanted Arya’s hand cut off!

      Oh I hadn’t recalled that (it’s been a long time since I read AGOT), thanks!

      Just to be clear, I don’t discount Arya’s bravery or commitment to doing the right thing. But which would have been a better outcome for Mycah that day: a beating, perhaps involving some serious injuries from Joffrey, or being killed by the Hound?

      Bad things were going to happen to Mycah once he had the misfortune of drawing Joffrey’s attention, because Joffrey was a monster. Arya tried to intervene, much as she would have if it had been, say, Theon rather than Joffrey who was tormenting the butcher’s boy for daring to play at swords with her. Arya intervened thinking that she understood the rules that everyone would play by. She was very much mistaken. She tried to save Mycah, but instead she set in motion a series of actions that actually doomed Mycah to die, rather than just suffer a beating (a completely unwarranted, unjust beating – but he’d probably still have lived). Please note that I am in no way blaming Arya for Mycah’s death – she was too young and sheltered to have anticipated how it would all play out, and she certainly wasn’t the one who issued the order to kill him. But that was a chilling lesson in how “the right thing” shifts depending on the circumstances.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Shy Lady Dragon:
      OT: for Lena’s fans (I’m one of them), watch the fantasy romantic comedy Twice upon a Yesterday/ The Man with Rain in His Shoes (1998) to admire a young, gentle, brunette Lena. The film is built around the motif of getting a second chance by going back in time.

      Thanks for the rec! Honestly she’s my favorite on GOT, which is hard to reconcile with how awful Cersei is. The power of good acting!

        Quote  Reply

    94. Gwidhiel,

      Enjoy! As much as I hate Cersei, I love Lena. Ten Bears mentioned another film of hers which is worth watching: Imagine Me and You, where Lena’s character becomes the object of affection of a bride to be.
      The power of acting, indeed! I have watched GOT for many times (more than 7, I guess) and lately I have noticed that I can’t really hate Cersei when I watch the show, because whom I see is Lena and I’m mesmerized by her acting.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Shy Lady Dragon: I can’t really hate Cersei when I watch the show, because whom I see is Lena and I’m mesmerized by her acting.

      Me too! When I re-watch with my husband, who’s been slowly working his way through the series (hey, he’s finally at S5E10!), we agree that the best scenes are Cersei’s. Those eyebrows, that smirk, she’s simply marvelous.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Very true! And in the books during her time at Harrenhal, she feels weak, despondent, and even ashamed that she doesn’t have the power to help those being tortured by Weese.

      Gwidhiel,

      Yes, that whole episode at the Kingsroad was very much a case of Arya letting her emotions get the better of her. And it’s one in a long line of injustices she witnesses: Syrio’s death, Ned’s death, tortures at Harrenhal, the Red Wedding.. It’s no wonder she makes some of the choices she does. Seeing all these good, honourable people suffer these injustices inevitably makes her question her own morality in a way. Not to say that she’s immoral — I’ve always said that she’s fundamentally a good, compassionate, and kind person — but her sense of justice has been twisted by her experiences. Ned, for instance, would not have had a favourable view of the Faceless Men. Obviously Arya regrets joining them, but she still uses what she learned in her pursuit of justice.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Enharmony1625: Gwidhiel,

      Yes, that whole episode at the Kingsroad was very much a case of Arya letting her emotions get the better of her. And it’s one in a long line of injustices she witnesses: Syrio’s death, Ned’s death, tortures at Harrenhal, the Red Wedding.. It’s no wonder she makes some of the choices she does. Seeing all these good, honourable people suffer these injustices inevitably makes her question her own morality in a way. Not to say that she’s immoral — I’ve always said that she’s fundamentally a good, compassionate, and kind person — but her sense of justice has been twisted by her experiences. Ned, for instance, would not have had a favourable view of the Faceless Men. Obviously Arya regrets joining them, but she still uses what she learned in her pursuit of justice.

      Yes, I agree with you. S6 and S7 were very disappointing for me vis a vis Arya, because I think that one of the primary ways she has to grow is in understanding that justice is always context-dependent. She was learning that important lesson through her interactions with the Hound, and even during her early training in the House of Black and White. In the books those lessons continued for Cat of the Canals, as she learned to pay attention to details and see how they fit together into the bigger picture. But the show skipped all of that (understandable to some extent because it would have been very slow going) and instead made her into this ridiculous action figure who suffered practically no lasting consequences for blowing off the Faceless Men. And then they had her donning Lady Stoneheart’s mantle to pursue vengeance on the Freys. And the stupid, stupid Winterfell subplot. I felt they played fast and loose with Arya’s character to serve up eye-catching action scenes and to create unnecessary “dramatic tension” in Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Gwidhiel,

      Call me an optimist, but I do believe we will get some of this in season 8. With all the reunions Arya is in for (Jon, Sandor, Gendry), I don’t see how they can ignore this element of her character. It seems like the perfect time to bring this up in her show arc. So I definitely miss some of those character moments Arya had in the earlier seasons as well, though I loved some of her season 6 and season 7 story. All the stuff with the play and her bond with Lady Crane (albeit brief..) was great, and I loved everything up until episode 5 in season 7 (and of course the wonderful final scene between her and Sansa). I’m also 100% A-OK with her being a Needle-and-dagger-wielding-badass as long as it’s grounded in reality and not at the expense of character development. Because I do believe both can co-exist if handled properly, which is what I’m hoping for!

        Quote  Reply

    99. Enharmony1625,

      I share both your hope and your optimism for Season 8! Although I was just complaining about how the show handled Arya in the last couple of seasons, overall I do trust that they’ve got a sufficient grasp of who she “truly” is to make her part in the final season satisfying.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Gwidhiel: complaining about how the show handled Arya in the last couple of seasons

      Mine was pretty much just from when she returned to Winterfell. While I wanted more depth to her Braavos arc I wasn’t disappointed in ‘what’ they did, just the brief skimming of what could have been. I don’t know exactly what I would have preferred for her instead of inserting her into the Sansa-LF situation, but I didn’t like that or how they did it. Maybe she could have decided to head for Dragonstone right away to join & assist Jon. Brienne could have gone with her to give us another Arya team-up road trip. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    101. Shy Lady Dragon,

      I am….so sure that Jaime will die, that I don’t even fear his death. I want him to die with honour and have a little bit of happiness with Brienne before. I think he is meant to die in the arms of the woman he loves…”

      ____________
      We should all be so lucky.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Shy Lady Dragon:
      .. .But no, there must be some last men standing… and bloody Sneakers Arya, won’t she, Ten Bears?

      If. not, I’m going to need some serious psychotherapy.
      It’s already bad enough that I’m more emotionally invested in an inanimate object (Needle) than most of the living characters.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Clob,

      Yeah … I’m pretty sure they’ve been moving their pieces carefully and have postponed Arya’s reunion with Jon (and others) until S8 for Reasons That Will Be Revealed. To me it seemed like they quickly wrapped up Arya’s time in Braavos to get her set up to play a part in Winterfell. I just can’t believe the LF intrigue was the primary narrative purpose for Arya’s return to WF in S7.

      ETA: They needed to have her reunited (both physically and psychologically) with Sansa by the end of S7. I’d be very surprised if they do anything to mess with the sisters’ relationship in S8, so assume that whatever befalls one will strongly affect the other.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Clob:
      Ten Bears,
      “With all seriousness though, from the moment I got into the first book Arya has been my favorite character by far.Maisie being so friggin’ great has just reinforced and escalated it during the show’s run, so she’s my favorite cast member.While reading I just enjoyed her storyline the most and looked forward to her next chapter.On the show you can feel every emotion so well just looking at Maisie’s face.I could pull up a still of her expression in any of her scenes and that expression would be spot on for what Arya is saying, thinking, feeling, so along with everything else she’s able to maintain my full immersion in every scene.”

      Well said!

      As a pre-books fan, all I know is that Maisie Williams’s Arya is what drew me into the show.

      There’s a scene I can’t bear to watch again because she so convincingly portrayed despair and grief with just her facial expressions: Pressed against Yoren’s chest when her father was about to be beheaded.

      Geez… I could go on and on talking about how phenomenal she’s been (excluding her Hannibal Lecter mini-arc in S7e5-e6).

        Quote  Reply

    105. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      “Precisely my experience, Clob. And they slyly commended Maisie’s acting.in a Season 6 meta moment. Lady Crane said Arya would be good at acting and pointed out her expressive eyes.”
      _________
      Damn! You must be a mind reader. I was just about to bring up that “meta” moment with Lady Crane.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Ten Bears: Geez… I could go on and on talking about how phenomenal she’s been (excluding her Hannibal Lecter mini-arc in S7e5-e6).

      Wow, really? Until now I had no idea you were such a fan. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    107. Ten Bears,

      You and me both! And I’d be sending the bill to GRRM, and D&D!

      That being said, I’ve gone over it and over it in my head, and if they’re telling the story I think they’re telling, it makes no sense that she dies. She’ll suffer consequences I’m sure (this is GoT.. I know what I signed up for), and she’ll have to live with them. But live she will.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Gwidhiel: Oh I hadn’t recalled that (it’s been a long time since I read AGOT), thanks!

      Just to be clear, I don’t discount Arya’s bravery or commitment to doing the right thing. But which would have been a better outcome for Mycah that day: a beating, perhaps involving some serious injuries from Joffrey, or being killed by the Hound?

      Bad things were going to happen to Mycah once he had the misfortune of drawing Joffrey’s attention, because Joffrey was a monster. Arya tried to intervene, much as she would have if it had been, say, Theon rather than Joffrey who was tormenting the butcher’s boy for daring to play at swords with her. Arya intervened thinking that she understood the rules that everyone would play by. She was very much mistaken. She tried to save Mycah, but instead she set in motion a series of actions that actually doomed Mycah to die, rather than just suffer a beating (a completely unwarranted, unjust beating – but he’d probably still have lived). Please note that I am in no way blaming Arya for Mycah’s death – she was too young and sheltered to have anticipated how it would all play out, and she certainly wasn’t the one who issued the order to kill him. But that was a chilling lesson in how “the right thing” shifts depending on the circumstances.

      Spot-on! And neither she nor Sansa (at 9 and 11 in the books) could anticipate the violent cruelty that Cersei and Son would unleash on them and their households (incl. Mycah and Lady). Who can forget Joff’s answer in Season 3 (?) when Tyrion told him that Sansa was no longer his to torment. Joffrey: “Everyone is mine to torment.” Sadly, many many characters have underestimated the gratuitous cruelty of others, including Ned, Catelyn, Jaime, Jon, Dany, etc. Only evil or cynical characters even considered it possible or likely. But the Kingsroad incident did have one key beneficial result–it launched the sisters’ journeys to becoming the she-wolves they are today. Arya bristled at the injustice, and Sansa smarted from the victimisation. In their own ways, they soon began fighting back, Arya with her sword and decisive mind and Sansa with her self-control and verbal prowess. And once they had witnessed Ned and the Stark retinue in KL become sacrificial lambs on the altar of Lannister hubris, their survival depended on them alone plus a few helpful people. They grew.

      Gwidhiel:
      Enharmony1625,

      I share both your hope and your optimism for Season 8! Although I was just complaining about how the show handled Arya in the last couple of seasons, overall I do trust that they’ve got a sufficient grasp of who she “truly” is to make her part in the final season satisfying.

      I very much enjoyed your joint exchange. I didn’t mind Winterfell because of my theory about Arya, and Sansa was learning too. IMO, the resolution more or less justified any confusion That said, your posts just now triggered an idea I’d like to run by you (and everyone else). Yes, Arya AND Sansa were done a disservice in Seasons 5 – 7. Each had a plan but suffered a key setback brought on through overconfidence or inattention, and which physically endangered her. Arya took on the Waif and Sansa took on Ramsay. They were both psychically and literally wounded, but they persevered and overcame their foes. Interestingly, those foes died in darkness. And ultimately, each sister achieved her goal: freedom and home. Arya shockingly managed to leave the Faceless Men with No One powers and an apparent indication of no future retribution against her. Sansa, with Jon and Littlefinger’s army, helped win back Winterfell. Both had a major victory against an enemy house that was key to the Red Wedding–Arya gave Walder and Sons a dose of Old Gods retribution and finished eradicating the guilty Freys in 7.01. And Sansa gave Ramsay retribution by helping eradicate the Boltons from the North. And, despite the wonky plot, in Season 7 both together defeated Littlefinger and truly made made Winterfell the heart of the North once more. (Bran helped too.). And I agree, we shall see a very empowered Arya next season and, per Sophie, an empowered Sansa too. (And Bran.)

        Quote  Reply

    109. Gwidhiel,

      Time and time again, the show has told stories about progressively worse atrocities occurring because no one had the courage to intervene, eg the Mad King roasting Ned’s dad in his armor while everyone stood around and watched; or Sandor’s father letting Gregor get away with mutilating Sandor by telling people his bedding caught fire; or Melisandre’s beach blanket barbecue of folks who wouldn’t renounce their religion and convert.

      What was Arya supposed to do? Let Joffrey continue cutting open Mycah’s face? Sure, there were unfortunate consequences. That was only because Robert, after reaching the right conclusion (each father would discipline his own child), let Cersei have the last word.

      Mycah’s death is all on that lying pr*ck Joffrey, not Arya.

      And before anyone else catches it, yes, I realize what I wrote.

      “No One had the courage to intervene.”

        Quote  Reply

    110. Ten Bears: Mycah’s death is all on that lying pr*ck Joffrey, not Arya.

      Erm, we’re in agreement on that point as I said earlier in the thread:

      Please note that I am in no way blaming Arya for Mycah’s death – she was too young and sheltered to have anticipated how it would all play out, and she certainly wasn’t the one who issued the order to kill him.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Pigeon:
      I really miss Margaery/Natalie. She was smart, strong, and a great example of a person who, although not in a position to really control their future, adapted to take what control she could in a situation, and appeal to the love of the ‘common’ folk. Already successful with roles in shows like The Tudors, she’ll be a force.

      Here’s a clip from the episode of “Elementary” (CBS) in which Irene Adler (Natalie Dormer) meets Sherlock Holmes (Jonny Lee Miller). There’s a followup scene. I’ll try to post the link separately.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd2_w3A8oE

        Quote  Reply

    112. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      My memory is not what it used to be. (What was it that Davos said? I think it was something like: “Nothing f*cks you harder than time.”

      Anyway, about a year ago, a commenter with a background in art was discussing the exquisite paintings of Turner.

      Was that you? Because the clip I posted at 11:32 pm from Elementary, Natalie Dormer’s Irene Adler is an art restorer consulted by Sherlock Holmes about the provenance of a museum’s Turner painting.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Ten Bears,

      You have an excellent memory, TB. Apparently in June of 2017 I mentioned how sometimes GoT cinematographers consciously recreate scenes out of paintings, including Turner and Caravaggio. And I’ve never watched “Elementary” before–it looks quite interesting. Odd to hear Margaery with a Yank accent though! BTW, I really liked your comments about the necessity of intervening to protect others. Sadly, most of us lack the courage; perhaps that’s why we need heroes. You often speak of being in moderator hell. I’m currently there with a longish post. It is hell, isn’t it?

        Quote  Reply

    114. Ten Bears,

      Yes! I rarely watched the show, but caught when she was in it. I love pretty much all adaptations of the Irene Adler character, and Natalie is just always a joy to watch. (I am admittedly a fan of the RDJ Sherlock movies, and loved Rachel McAdams as well although I had pegged her to be a bit wiser re: Moriarty. Alas.

      But yeah – Natalie is an example of the kind of girl that you admire, think is beautiful and talented, yet just can’t be jealous of, because hello girl crush. 😊

        Quote  Reply

    115. Ten Bears, Enharmony1625,

      You (and I, for that matter) won’t need psychotherapy because of Arya’s death. There’s an urban legend that GRRM can’t kill Arya, she’s his wife’s favourite character and if Arya died, Paris would leave GRRM.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Ten Bears,

      Besides The Man with Rain in his Shoes and Twice upon a Yesterday, the film had, I think, a third title: If only. The third variant reminds me of what you said about dying in the arms of a beloved person. Indeed, that’s something to wish for… but not very soon.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Though a day late…

      🎂🌹🌹🌹🎉

      Happy 80th birthday to Dame Diana Rigg aka Margaery’s grandma aka the Queen of Thorns, Olenna Tyrell aka Mrs. James Bond aka Emma Peel aka Emmy Frontrunner.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      “….You often speak of being in moderator hell. I’m currently there with a longish post. It is hell, isn’t it?”
      ___________
      “That Page Not Found Purgatory” too. Something must trigger the site’s algorithm to divert a comment into the ether. Usually it will happen with posts with lots of proper nouns. Or just whenever the Lord of Light feels like f*cking with me.

      At least with Moderator Hell a post is usually resurrected after a few hours.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Ten Bears,

      It’s probably some machine learning algorithm that flags posts for moderation if it fits a certain pattern..

      Either that, or we’ve hit our Arya derailment quota for the month. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    120. Shy Lady Dragon,
      Nah, I reckon it’s just beginners’ luck. Gonna have a think about Enharmony1625’s suggestion of Xaro Xhoan Daxos. I think his previously unexplored relationship with the xylophone may be making several appearances 😉

      As for moderation, the only time I’ve seen my posts go in is when I try to reply to more than two people, keep editing a post, or the site is having problems which are affecting everyone.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Lulus Mum:

      As for moderation, the only time I’ve seen my posts go in is when I try to reply to more than two people, keep editing a post, or the site is having problems which are affecting everyone.

      Eureka, Lulu’s Mum. I hadn’t thought about your first reason, and indeed, that post was to three people and has permanently disappeared. I may edit it and resubmit. I think the second part was important.

        Quote  Reply

    122. When we first meet Sansa, she’s thirteen. Possibly the worst age with it comes to self-absorption and moodiness. And that’s seems to have coloured perception of her since. She was raised to be decorative, a “lady”, and subservient to men. Experience has taught her that putting her trust in men and allowing them to make all the decisions has not benefited her. Can she really be blamed for withholding information to Jon re. the Vale army? It proved to be the right thing when Jon, did indeed, fall for Ramsay’s machinations. And that’s how Sansa offends the patriarchy – she’s her own woman, listens to her own counsel, and doesn’t hide her light under a bushel in deference to some man. Sansa doesn’t have dragons, she hasn’t embraced masculine skills and a masculine role such as Arya and Brienne. She’s stayed within the framework of established femininity but insists on equal consideration, equal appreciation of her skills and talents, and doesn’t defer to some man. And that makes Sansa the most subversive character on GOT.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Meg:
      .Can she really be blamed for withholding information to Jon re. the Vale army?

      Yes, she can. It was vital information that could have altered their entire strategy.

      It proved to be the right thing when Jon, did indeed, fall for Ramsay’s machinations.

      Notwithstanding that Jon’s behaviour at the battle was idiotic, Jon’s entire decision-making process was carried out with an understanding of the strategic situation completely different from what it actually was. So if Sansa hadn’t withheld the information for no reason, nothing like the Battle of the Bastards would even have happened, because Jon would have acted completely differently well before they got to that point.

      Trying to come up with explanations for why Sansa refusing to let Jon know about the Vale made strategic sense is a fruitless game. Nothing of the sort has ever been offered either by the characters in-universe or by anybody connected with the show.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Sean C.: Trying to come up with explanations for why Sansa refusing to let Jon know about the Vale made strategic sense is a fruitless game.

      I agree that there was no strategic reason for Sansa to withhold that information from Jon; the only possible justification that I could see for it is that she wasn’t at all sure that Littlefinger would answer her call for help after she’d told him off in no uncertain terms when she met with him in Moletown.

      That scene was, to me, pretty clear: Sansa saw LF for what he was and wanted nothing further to do with him. She later lied to everyone about how she’d come to know the Blackfish had retaken Riverrun because she didn’t want to discuss LF with anyone, and certainly didn’t want to mention LF’s offer of “help” – which she knew would have strings attached. I didn’t see that as Sansa being devious or plotting, but the showrunners definitely encouraged the audience to wonder about Sansa’s motives, so I can see why people did.

      I just re-watched Season 6 this weekend, and my read of her exchange with Jon, prior to BotB, about not having enough men, was that she wanted Jon to wait a bit longer to launch the attack, til she knew that LF was in fact going to respond to her summons. It’s a generous interpretation of Sansa’s confusing actions, I admit, but I think it’s also justified because there’s nothing that she actually said or did in S6 (or S7) that actually was treacherous. So we’re left to conclude that either Sansa withheld the info about the KotV coming for vague reasons whose purpose is never revealed, or that she didn’t mention them because she wasn’t sure they were coming until after the battle had begun.

      BUT in that case, why didn’t Sansa admit that to Jon when they had their final S6 scene, on the Winterfell battlements and talked about needing to trust each other? Sansa was still annoyingly cagey in that scene. My own take on that is that D&D didn’t want to have her put those cards on the table, so that the audience would continue to suspect Sansa of treachery in S7. But again, that’s a generous interpretation (of Sansa, not D&D).

        Quote  Reply

    125. Gwidhiel,

      Not being sure whether he’d come isn’t a good reason either. Even the possibility that he might is a huge alteration of the calculus. Pretty much the first thing Jon would do with that information would be to attempt to make contact with the Vale army and coordinate.

      And, much like with the idea that it was a strategic calculation, neither Sansa in-universe nor anybody connected with the show in interviews, supplementary materials, etc. has ever suggested that she wasn’t sure if Littlefinger was going to come. The only explanation that was ever offered is that she had super-vague “trust issues”.

      The biggest problem with the whole Vale army plotline isn’t even so much that the writers are unclear about why she does it, it’s that they completely misunderstand or otherwise ignore what the implications of the information being withheld are. In-universe, Jon takes the withholding as something that had no consequences beyond illustrating a lack of trust between the two. Hence, the resolution is just him saying they should trust each other going forward, and then he kisses her on the forehead. This is not the response you would give to somebody who pointlessly lied to you, resulting in a massive battle that killed hundreds or thousands of your soldiers and almost got you yourself killed too — so in the writers’ minds that’s not what happened.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Sean C.,

      I agree. Sansa’s decision to withhold that bit of information from Jon continues to be a mystifying one that isn’t easily justifiable. Sophie actually explained her interpretation of it in the SDCC panel that followed season 6 as Sansa wanting the glory for herself. The most rational explanation I can come up with (which is very similar to Gwidhiel‘s) is that she didn’t want to admit her involvement with LF.

      Meg:
      She’s stayed within the framework of established femininity but insists on equal consideration, equal appreciation of her skills and talents, and doesn’t defer to some man.And that makes Sansa the most subversive character on GOT.

      So does Dany, but she has much greater ambition and has accomplished much more than Sansa has, so I would argue that she is much more a rebel in this way than Sansa is. Though I agree Sansa’s subversion within femininity is admirable, and I like that about her character.

      In comparison with Arya and Brienne though, I don’t think either is more or less subversive than the other — they’re all rebelling against the conventional norms of women at that time in their own way.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Sean C.,
      If trying to come up with explanations for why Sansa refused to let Jon know about the Vale army is a fruitless game, then so is speculating as to how it would have made a difference to Jon’s strategy. What is known is that Sansa was right to doubt Jon’s ability to withstand Ramsay’s talent for physiological manipulation. Jon’s problem wasn’t that he had the wrong strategy. His problem was that he failed to implement it.

      Why he would have behaved differently with a larger army, I don’t know. Jon had proven that he was no match for Ramsay. Sansa’s strategy worked. The battle was won. I think the real problem people have with it is that she didn’t just trust a man to do it but took matters into her own hands.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Lulus Mum: Raven’

      High five to you!! It finally showed up this evening. I think you were absolutely right and from now on I’ll use your strategy. Well done, you.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Enharmony1625,
      I never trust Sophie to explain Sansa. She loves to troll. If Sansa wanted the glory, she sure didn’t claim it.

      Dany has dragons – their birth contributes a great deal to her self-belief. As does the fact that she’s the last Targaryen and has a destiny to fulfill.

      Brienne and Arya don’t defy the patriarchy in the way Sansa does – they adapt to it by taking on male attributes and fitting in that way. Sansa doesn’t become “male” to assert herself.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Meg,

      Like Enharmony1625, I also don’t necessarily see Sansa as being “more” subversive than characters like Arya and Brienne. They’re all subversive in different ways. After all, it can be argued that Sansa (in Season 6 onwards) also engages in traditionally “male” actions such as speaking her mind and insisting that her viewpoints and ideas be respected. It’s just that the “male” attributes that she takes on are different from those of Arya and Brienne. And I wouldn’t consider Sansa “the most subversive character on GoT” either, because characters like Margaery, Catelyn, and Melisandre can also be viewed as subversive while staying within the framework of established femininity. So I can’t see why Sansa would be “the most subversive” in comparison to them.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Meg:
      If trying to come up with explanations for why Sansa refused to let Jon know about the Vale army is a fruitless game,then so is speculating as to how it would have made a difference to Jon’s strategy. What is known is that Sansa was right to doubt Jon’s ability to withstand Ramsay’s talent for physiological manipulation. Jon’s problem wasn’t that he had the wrong strategy.His problem was that he failed to implement it.

      Why he would have behaved differently with a larger army, I don’t know.Jon had proven that he was no match for Ramsay. Sansa’s strategy worked.The battle was won. I think the real problem people have with it is that she didn’t just trust a man to do it but took matters into her own hands.

      We don’t need to know exactly how it would have been different. It simply would have, and Jon needed to have that information as the field commander. Moreover, Sansa clearly didn’t want him to fight the battle at all until the Vale showed up, so if he had done as she asked the exact same situation that you say she wanted to avoid (Jon with the knowledge that the entire army is there before the battle starts) would have happened anyway.

      The idea that Sansa is withholding the information as a tactical calculation isn’t supported by anything in the show. Not even she ever claims that she was justified in doing so, or that the results of the battle proved her correct not to tell him. They just apologize for the lack of trust between them.

        Quote  Reply

    132. And Jon would have still been vulnerable to Ramsay’s tricks. Why does that keep being ignored? A “hidden” army was insurance against Jon doing anything stupid. Jon simply didn’t know who was dealing with. Sansa did. And just as well. Why would she let the field commander know of her “insurance plan” if she didn’t have full confidence in the field commander? That’s just stupid. Sansa played it smart. And the battle was won.

      No one does anything without a reason. So what’s your theory why Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the possibility that the Vale army might turn up?

        Quote  Reply

    133. Lunaselene,

      Arya and Brienne conform to male behaviours to compete in a male dominated society. Margery uses manipulation to get what she wants – she doesn’t challenge the male order. Melisandre is a priestess which doesn’t challenge gender norms in that society – there are other red priestesses. Nor did Catelyn who, even though she was a strong woman, still conformed to gender roles.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Meg:
      She’s stayed within the framework of established femininity but insists on equal consideration, equal appreciation of her skills and talents, and doesn’t defer to some man.And that makes Sansa the most subversive character on GOT.

      Can’t Cersei (Lena) ever win anything?

        Quote  Reply

    135. Sean C.: The biggest problem with the whole Vale army plotline isn’t even so much that the writers are unclear about why she does it, it’s that they completely misunderstand or otherwise ignore what the implications of the information being withheld are.

      This. I feel like they’ve indulged in a ton of misdirection in the last two seasons about Sansa and her motives resulting in nonsensical, poorly explained decisions. I suppose that since Jon seemed to treat it as a minor error in judgment that was best handled by a gentle kiss on the forehead, we viewers are meant to accept that it was no big deal. Turn off your critical reasoning about the implications and consequences of Sansa not telling Jon about the KotV. Perhaps they were getting us ready for all the nonsense spectacle they were going to throw at us in S7.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Stark Raven’ Rad: That said, your posts just now triggered an idea I’d like to run by you (and everyone else). Yes, Arya AND Sansa were done a disservice in Seasons 5 – 7. Each had a plan but suffered a key setback brought on through overconfidence or inattention, and which physically endangered her. Arya took on the Waif and Sansa took on Ramsay. They were both psychically and literally wounded, but they persevered and overcame their foes. Interestingly, those foes died in darkness. And ultimately, each sister achieved her goal: freedom and home. Arya shockingly managed to leave the Faceless Men with No One powers and an apparent indication of no future retribution against her. Sansa, with Jon and Littlefinger’s army, helped win back Winterfell. Both had a major victory against an enemy house that was key to the Red Wedding–Arya gave Walder and Sons a dose of Old Gods retribution and finished eradicating the guilty Freys in 7.01. And Sansa gave Ramsay retribution by helping eradicate the Boltons from the North. And, despite the wonky plot, in Season 7 both together defeated Littlefinger and truly made made Winterfell the heart of the North once more. (Bran helped too.). And I agree, we shall see a very empowered Arya next season and, per Sophie, an empowered Sansa too. (And Bran.)

      Oh, I hadn’t noticed that before (and I just re-watched all of Season 6 this past weekend) – I think you’re onto something about how the sisters’ stories were diverted to fighting evil and prevailing after initial set-backs that might have been avoided had they been more alert to the dangers in their situations.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      And now my reply to your post that finally got out of the moderation queue is awaiting approval – my first time!

      To add to the mystery of what sends a post to the queue, I wonder if quoting from a post that had previously been held for approval will automatically also require review and approval.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Meg:
      And Jon would have still been vulnerable to Ramsay’s tricks.Why does that keep being ignored?A “hidden” army was insurance against Jon doing anything stupid.Jon simply didn’t know who was dealing with. Sansa did.And just as well.Why would she let the field commander know of her “insurance plan” if she didn’t have full confidence in the field commander?That’s just stupid.Sansa played it smart.And the battle was won.

      No one does anything without a reason.So what’s your theory why Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the possibility that the Vale army might turn up?

      Hm, I always liked Sansa in the books and have grown to appreciate her in the show after initially disliking her (and attributing it to bad casting). But this just doesn’t sound right at all to me, and it isn’t borne out by anything Sansa said or did in Season 6 or 7.

      If Sansa’s withholding the intel on the KotV was deliberate, because she didn’t trust Jon to not fall prey to Ramsay’s trickery, why didn’t she bring that up in S7 when she was arguing with him about his decision to go south? She brought up Ned’s and Rob’s mistakes, why not Jon’s, which would have been more relevant?

      If my interpretation of Sansa’s motives re the KotV (i.e. that she wasn’t sure they were coming) is generous, ascribing brilliant strategic acuity to her when she fully admitted before the BotB that she knew nothing of military strategy seems like a combination of cherry-picking details and wishful thinking.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Sean C.: Not being sure whether he’d come isn’t a good reason either.

      Follow-up to clarify: Even if my interpretation of Sansa’s motives vis a vis the KofV were correct it wouldn’t be any kind of strategic justification. In my view she’d completely failed to consider that Jon & his commanders would want to take all possible contingencies into account before the battle. In her naïveté she’d thought the worst thing she could do would be to promise aid that never materialized. That it all worked out was luck, not strategic brilliance on Sansa’s part.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Meg:
      And Jon would have still been vulnerable to Ramsay’s tricks.Why does that keep being ignored?A “hidden” army was insurance against Jon doing anything stupid.Jon simply didn’t know who was dealing with. Sansa did.And just as well.Why would she let the field commander know of her “insurance plan” if she didn’t have full confidence in the field commander?That’s just stupid.Sansa played it smart.And the battle was won.

      Sansa never claims the Vale is insurance. And if Jon hadn’t done anything and then the Vale showed up, he’d be in exactly the situation you claimed Sansa’s strategy was meant to avoid.

      No one does anything without a reason.So what’s your theory why Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the possibility that the Vale army might turn up?

      Real people do things for reasons. Since this is fiction, that does not inherently hold true. Sansa withholds the information because she’s a poorly-written character in a deeply contrived plotline. There’s no explanation beyond her having vague trust issues.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Gwidhiel,

      I watched Season 6 this weekend too, and I agree with your speculation, that Sansa was trying to delay the battle until she had some sense of whether Littlefinger would come. In fact, since Sansa clearly saw Littlefinger for what he was, and obviously loathed him, not only did she not know whether he would come, but, and IMO, this is important to consider, Sansa wasn’t sure whose side he would be on if he did show up!

      (I was thinking about Littlefinger’s last meeting with Cersei. He was playing his games, letting both sides fight it out and then arriving to support the winner, when both armies would be weaker.)

      The fact that he decided to support Sansa and Jon is a no brainer. Even a weakened Ramsey posed more of a threat to LF’s plans, than Jon & Sansa did. LF had absolute confidence in his ability to manipulate Sansa. After all, face to face she told him how much she hated him, but then on the other hand, she writes him asking for help a short time later?

      But Sansa wasn’t sure. After all, he was the one who arranged her marriage and the alliance with Ramsey. For Littlefinger this was his shot. His options were support Ramsey, support Sansa, or stay out of it. He couldn’t stay out of it. This opportunity wouldn’t come to him again if he didn’t seize it now.

      In Sansa’s mind, defeating Ramsey was more than just getting Winterfell back. It was personal. She wanted to be the agent of not just his defeat, but his complete destruction. ( remember her words to him just before she turned his dogs loose to finish him.) Remember when Jon told her she didn’t have to face Ramsey at the battlefield parley and she said, No, I want to be here. Then she told Ramsey he would die tomorrow. Loved that scene.

      IMO, this was Sansa’s show, much more than it was Jon’s. She took a gamble. She reached out to Littlefinger for help. If he arrived and supported Ramsey they would all die. But the prospect of Jon defeating Ramsey on his own was equally as bleak.

      If LF arrived to support her, and her gambit worked, she’d own Ramsey, and oh, BTW, give LF a small piece of the redemption he claimed to crave at their last meeting. I think she withheld the information because she was unsure, was hoping to delay the fight, and also because she wanted this to be hers. She wanted no advice, no interference, no one second guessing her. She wanted to own it.

      She wanted the full satisfaction of obliterating Ramsey Bolton and his army from the face of the earth. At the end, when it was over, Jon seemed to understand that. He stopped beating Ramsey, knew that it was Sansa’s call. All she wanted to know is “where is he?”

      Later when they stood together on Winterfell’s wall, Jon was big enough to acknowledge her, even though he was perhaps angry or hurt that she had not trusted him. At the end of the day, IMO, by acting on her own, she earned a different kind of respect than simply being the “Lady of Winterfell.”

      And to his credit, Jon acknowledged her new status and her capabilities as a leader in ehr own right. It marked a turning point in their relationship. If she had not won his confidence by acting strategically, he would have never felt comfortable to leave her in charge when he left to go south to meet Danaerys.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Roz’s Ghost: IMO, this was Sansa’s show, much more than it was Jon’s. She took a gamble. She reached out to Littlefinger for help. If he arrived and supported Ramsey they would all die. But the prospect of Jon defeating Ramsey on his own was equally as bleak.

      If LF arrived to support her, and her gambit worked, she’d own Ramsey, and oh, BTW, give LF a small piece of the redemption he claimed to crave at their last meeting. I think she withheld the information because she was unsure, was hoping to delay the fight, and also because she wanted this to be hers. She wanted no advice, no interference, no one second guessing her. She wanted to own it.

      Hm, you raise some interesting points, and in the explanatory void surrounding Sansa’s actions your reasoning certainly makes as much sense as mine does. I don’t think I agree with you about Sansa wanting to own Ramsay’s defeat, simply because it’s not my head-canon, but you certainly could be on to something!

        Quote  Reply

    143. Meg:
      Lunaselene,

      Arya and Brienne conform to male behaviours to compete in a male dominated society. Margery uses manipulation to get what she wants – she doesn’t challenge the male order. Melisandre is a priestess which doesn’t challenge gender norms in that society – there are other red priestesses.Nor did Catelyn who, even though she was a strong woman, still conformed to gender roles.

      IDK … setting up an arbitrary pissing contest between female characters to determine Who is the Best Feminist Subverting the Patriarchy seems kinda ironic.

      I like strong female characters who are well-rounded and self-determining. All of the ladies you’ve mentioned fit this bill. They all have strengths and shortcomings. We each might prefer some of their chosen strategies over others. But I don’t see what is gained by emphasizing how some are “better x” than others.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Sean C.,

      We don’t need to know exactly how it would have been different. It simply would have, and Jon needed to have that information as the field commander. Moreover, Sansa clearly didn’t want him to fight the battle at all until the Vale showed up, so if he had done as she asked the exact same situation that you say she wanted to avoid (Jon with the knowledge that the entire army is there before the battle starts) would have happened anyway.

      The idea that Sansa is withholding the information as a tactical calculation isn’t supported by anything in the show. Not even she ever claims that she was justified in doing so, or that the results of the battle proved her correct not to tell him. They just apologize for the lack of trust between them.

      ——————————————————-
      Sean, you’ve done a superb job in several posts of analysing and explaining this. I’ll add two thoughts. 1) SAnsa said she knew nothing about battles. Then Know-Nothing went and took the reins away from Jon and condemned him to fighting with a small force because he did not know cavalry reserves were likely to come soon. All Sansa had to do was tell him they might come and he would have had options. 2) No one has mentioned the casualties. The Northmen, Wildlings, and Little Bear’s 62 good men were decimated. Jon could have been killed and Rickon (and WunWun!) was. How many would have lived if Jon had been able to plan with full information? In Season 7 Sansa tells Arya she acts to keep Glover and Royce’s 2500 men there and that the Vale came for her (emphasis hers). Well, she protects and keeps her own men fed, armed and alive. I don’t attribute evil motives to her, but IMO she did an evil thing.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Gwidhiel:
      Stark Raven’ Rad,

      And now my reply to your post that finally got out of the moderation queue is awaiting approval – my first time!

      To add to the mystery of what sends a post to the queue, I wonder if quoting from a post that had previously been held for approval will automatically also require review and approval.

      Mea culpa…probably. I’m sorry this has happened. Unfortunately, I already used my ‘Get out of Moderation Hell’ card, otherwise, I’d give it to you. I look forward to seeing your post soon.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Meg,

      In that they emulate their fathers, yes. But neither Brienne nor Arya would handle Euron in the same way as Cersei did. I can’t see either of them using a promise of a wedding night as a bargaining chip, whether she has any intention of following through or not.

      Additionally, being the Ruling Queen of Westeros, First of Anyone’s Name has to count for something.

        Quote  Reply

    147. Stark Raven' Rad: 2) No one has mentioned the casualties. The Northmen, Wildlings, and Little Bear’s 62 good men were decimated. Jon could have been killed and Rickon (and WunWun!) was.

      Oh come on: Rickon was a goner no matter what Jon or Sansa had done, because Ramsay was a monster. I’d be willing to bet that even if the battle had been postponed because Jon wanted to wait for the Vale forces, Ramsay’s opening gambit would have been the same.

      Wun-wun did not die until he’d stormed Winterfell’s gate, after the arrival of the KotV. So I don’t think it’s reasonable to ascribe his death to Sansa’s withholding of info, either. Let’s be real: people would have died even if Jon had launched an assault on Ramsay that was coordinated with the KotV. In fact, it’s quite possible that Ramsay-who-never-actually-used-his-sword-in-BotB would have turned tail and withdrawn into Winterfell the minute he saw the odds weren’t so heavily in his favor. If that had happened, and they’d needed Wun-wun to break down the gate, as he actually did, Wun-wun probably would have died, as he actually did.

      And yes, absolutely, not knowing about the Vale forces forced Jon to take to the field sooner, because given what he knew waiting would just make things worse for his side (not only because winter was coming but because fights were breaking out in the camp between Northerners and Wildlings). So more men than necessary died because of the premature scheduling of the conflict.

      BUT more men than necessary died that day because of the premature launch of the prematurely scheduled conflict. And that error was squarely on Jon’s shoulders; it had nothing to do with Sansa not telling him the Vale forces might be coming to their aid.

      When apportioning blame, we have to be careful about our own biases as viewers. Given what we as viewers knew & saw, it’s tempting to see Sansa’s actions as “evil” and/or nefarious, or to over-attribute the causal relationship between the outcomes and what she did or didn’t do. Especially true for viewers who already don’t like Sansa. YMMV

      Lastly: we assume that Jon entirely determined the scheduling of the BotB – but did he? Ramsay had his forces assembled and ready to go, based on his understanding that his forces outnumbered Jon’s by more than 2-1. Why would Ramsay wait? And if he had waited, because he wanted to force Jon to advance from a defensible position, as I pointed out above, wouldn’t he have just retreated to Winterfell and dug in for a siege once he saw the KotV? Ramsay openly said that his willingness to pit his army against Jon’s in the field was because he had the advantage of numbers.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Stark Raven’ Rad: Mea culpa…probably.I’m sorry this has happened.Unfortunately, I already used my ‘Get out of Moderation Hell’ card, otherwise, I’d give it to you.I look forward to seeing your post soon.

      Here’s a preview: you made some great points that hadn’t occurred to me! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    149. Gwidhiel: That it all worked out was luck, not strategic brilliance on Sansa’s part.

      I really don’t want to talk about Sansa, but I feel I must agree with the above statement.
      OT, I’d like to share this with you: I have finally watched Mary Shelley and I recommend it not only to people interested in writers’ lives and fans of Elle Fanning, but also to GOT fans who fight our Long Night by hunting for films with GOT actors. Maisie has a small part and plays a Scottish character. Not being a native speaker, I can’t tell how good her accent is, but nevertheless she’s as adorable as always. Stephen Dillane plays William Godwin and, spoiler alert!, he doesn’t burn his daughter Mary at the stake, but is an understanding father, even if a stern one.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Gwidhiel,

      I don’t think Sansa was very bummed that Jon went South. Sansa was being difficult with Jon because Sansa was being manipulated by Littlefinger making her power hungry (as Arya pointed out), and as soon as Jon said to Sansa … “Winterfelll is Yours” Sansa thought about Jon’s decision … “Have a good time… take your time… don’t rush back.”

      Sansa will be her own player in Season 8 and it’s gonna be great.

        Quote  Reply

    151. firstone:
      Gwidhiel,

      I don’t think Sansa was very bummed that Jon went South. Sansa was being difficult with Jon because Sansa was being manipulated by Littlefinger making her power hungry (as Arya pointed out), and as soon as Jon said to Sansa … “Winterfelll is Yours” Sansa thought about Jon’s decision … “Have a good time… take your time… don’t rush back.”

      Sansa will be her own player in Season 8 and it’s gonna be great.

      I don’t share your interpretation of S7 Sansa, but do share your enthusiasm for S8!

        Quote  Reply

    152. firstone,
      I don’t know that Sansa (nor the rest of the people of the North) completely grasps the level of danger they’re going to face. I think they believe Jon’s ‘stories’ but imaginations probably aren’t seeing it accurately, which is understandable since none of them have seen the NK and his army.

      Sansa was so scared about the terrible yet living human Ramsay and persistent about not having enough men compared to essentially the opposite stance when Jon was going to leave to get anything he can to help them against something far, far larger and worse. There was zero chance of surviving at Winterfell with what they had no matter how much they prepared. “We need the King in the North in the North.” For what? What could he do sitting there? All of the men were of that stance and against Jon’s decision. He was correct in saying that he was the one that had to go. Nobody else would have gotten Daenerys to help, or even gotten dragonglass for that matter.

      Watching the events at Winterfell after Jon left with Sansa in charge it didn’t feel like her or their priority was the NK as much as it was preparing for a long Winter and politics. I have a feeling Sansa is still going to be in that sort of mindset when Jon returns. Politics, House seats, who is controlling what and the history of this or that family won’t be important with the approach of an ever-expanding army of dead people. It could be frustrating if Sansa and the North’s men clash too much with Jon about Daenerys and her forces arriving.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Clob: I have a feeling Sansa is still going to be in that sort of mindset when Jon returns. Politics, House seats, who is controlling what and the history of this or that family won’t be important with the approach of an ever-expanding army of dead people. It could be frustrating if Sansa and the North’s men clash too much with Jon about Daenerys and her forces arriving.

      While I agree that Sansa probably hasn’t fully grasped the magnitude of the danger the AotD pose to everyone in the North, she does at least acknowledge it – when she ordered other houses’ grain stores to be sent to Winterfell so that when/if their occupants sought shelter from the AotD they’d have enough food in Winterfell for everyone.

      The person who’s been focused on politics despite having actually witnessed the NK & AotD is Daenerys. I’m anticipating that the news that Cersei has broken faith will not go down well with the Dragon Queen. It took all of Jon’s efforts to get her to agree to come north … will she stay the course once it looks like doing so could cost her the Iron Throne?

      On a related note, one thing I’ve been wondering is why we haven’t seen Tyrion explaining feudal relationships to Daenerys. We’ve periodically seen throughout the seasons that the obligations run both ways, e.g. when Lord Glover bitingly refused to help the Starks take Winterell from the Boltons on the grounds that no Starks helped them when the Ironborn attacked, and the Boltons had ultimately been the reason they got rid of the Ironborn. If Daenerys understood that the rightful sovereign of the Seven Kingdoms had an actual obligation to do anything and everything she could to defend the realm from the greatest threat it had ever faced, and that her fulfilling that obligation wasn’t a choice and certainly wasn’t a favor, then I can’t help but wonder if she would have committed sooner to the North, and to proving herself to be the rightful sovereign she aspires to be. Yeah, that seems like a pretty key piece of information to convey to someone who knows very little about how feudal Westerosi society works. I guess we can chalk that up to another one of Tyrion’s misses.

        Quote  Reply

    154. Gwidhiel: Oh come on: Rickon was a goner no matter what Jon or Sansa had done, because Ramsay was a monster. I’d be willing to bet that even if the battle had been postponed because Jon wanted to wait for the Vale forces, Ramsay’s opening gambit would have been the same.

      Wun-wun did not die until he’d stormed Winterfell’s gate, after the arrival of the KotV. So I don’t think it’s reasonable to ascribe his death to Sansa’s withholding of info, either. Let’s be real: people would have died even if Jon had launched an assault on Ramsay that was coordinated with the KotV. In fact, it’s quite possible that Ramsay-who-never-actually-used-his-sword-in-BotB would have turned tail and withdrawn into Winterfell the minute he saw the odds weren’t so heavily in his favor. If that had happened, and they’d needed Wun-wun to break down the gate, as he actually did, Wun-wun probably would have died, as he actually did.

      And yes, absolutely, not knowing about the Vale forces forced Jon to take to the field sooner, because given what he knew waiting would just make things worse for his side (not only because winter was coming but because fights were breaking out in the camp between Northerners and Wildlings). So more men than necessary died because of the premature scheduling of the conflict.

      BUT more men than necessary died that day because of the premature launch of the prematurely scheduled conflict. And that error was squarely on Jon’s shoulders; it had nothing to do with Sansa not telling him the Vale forces might be coming to their aid.

      When apportioning blame, we have to be careful about our own biases as viewers. Given what we as viewers knew & saw, it’s tempting to see Sansa’s actions as “evil” and/or nefarious, or to over-attribute the causal relationship between the outcomes and what she did or didn’t do. Especially true for viewers who already don’t like Sansa. YMMV

      Lastly: we assume that Jon entirely determined the scheduling of the BotB – but did he? Ramsay had his forces assembled and ready to go, based on his understanding that his forces outnumbered Jon’s by more than 2-1. Why would Ramsay wait? And if he had waited, because he wanted to force Jon to advance from a defensible position, as I pointed out above, wouldn’t he have just retreated to Winterfell and dug in for a siege once he saw the KotV? Ramsay openly said that his willingness to pit his army against Jon’s in the field was because he had the advantage of numbers.

      Ok, but Sansa was the one pleading with Jon to save their home and their brother, or “I will.” If he’d refused, how do we suppose that would have gone? She then omits to tell him about the very real possibility of the troops she has asked to come and help. As for the saving their brother bit, she changed her mind pretty quick about that as well (yeah no, Rickon’s already dead).

      Sansa and Jon both looked like dumbasses without foresight for no apparent reason, which is annoying as hell, because I don’t think either of them are idiots.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Pigeon: If he’d refused, how do we suppose that would have gone?

      Good question! It was her idea to go courting the Northern houses to rally support – so I imagine that would have been her first step. And when that didn’t yield much (or anything at all, since Davos seemed to be the persuasive one in that effort) … she’d probably have turned to Littlefinger. She used what was at her disposal – men willing to fight for her cause, by persuading them it was their cause, too – to achieve her aims. She was right to point out to Jon that the Boltons, left unchecked, would descend upon the Wildlings that he’d fought so hard to save. If she’d allowed his initial impulse to go south to guide them, the Wildlings were doomed.

      Pigeon: As for the saving their brother bit, she changed her mind pretty quick about that as well (yeah no, Rickon’s already dead).

      Sansa didn’t know that Ramsay had Rickon when she initially made her case to Jon to fight the Boltons. Once they both knew about Rickon, Sansa’s initial impulse to try to save her little brother soon yielded to her understanding, upon reflection, of what Ramsay would do. Elsewhere in the thread we’ve talked about how the “right thing” isn’t always the thing that immediately comes to mind in a crisis. Jon rushing to try to save Rickon on the battlefield was a great case in point of how we can make things worse by failing to take the wider context into consideration when our gut says “go help!”

      Rickon was so important, so threatening to Ramsay’s position, that Ramsay probably wouldn’t have traded Rickon alive and intact even for Sansa herself. She says as much to Jon – that neither he (bastard) nor she (girl) are as threatening to Ramsay as Rickon (trueborn Stark son) was. Was she wrong about that? If you agree that she wasn’t wrong about that, what could she have done to save her brother?

      I realize that the Blackfish and Edmure Tully are at best third-tier characters, but in Season 6 we saw the exact same calculus at play when the Freys tried to get the Blackfish to surrender by threatening to kill Edmure. The Blackfish knew that Edmure was as good as dead anyway, so he didn’t take the bait.

        Quote  Reply

    156. Gwidhiel,

      I totally believe she got nothing from LF, we knew what his plan was, her rape and escape screwed up those plans.
      No way was she letting him near her family; not until they did their ~1500 mile trek and discovered how badly Robb screwed up and Jon being adamant did she realize they need him, she did the pragmatic thing ; swallowed her pride asked for the Vale and offered herself as a prize.
      I do think she could have told Jon in the tent, but I also believe she had valid reasons on why she didn’t . It would not have changed the battle strategy for Ramsey, or Jon, Jon plan works if and only if Ramsey attacks first and Jon held his position .
      Ramsey though had Rickon and used him to pull Jon out of his plan.

        Quote  Reply

    157. firstone:
      Gwidhiel,

      I don’t think Sansa was very bummed that Jon went South. Sansa was being difficult with Jon because Sansa was being manipulated by Littlefinger making her power hungry (as Arya pointed out), and as soon as Jon said to Sansa … “Winterfelll is Yours” Sansa thought about Jon’s decision … “Have a good time… take your time… don’t rush back.”

      Sansa will be her own player in Season 8 and it’s gonna be great.

      If you think that ,then you may have read that wrong. Sansa wasn’t happy when Jon gave her the North, there were only two people smiling, LF and Brienne of Tarth.
      Sansa was shocked, and scared despite her telling Jon he can’t protect her, she still sees him as her protector outside of Brienne she trust him the most with her life.

        Quote  Reply

    158. Roz’s Ghost,

      In Sansa’s mind, defeating Ramsey was more than just getting Winterfell back. It was personal. She wanted to be the agent of not just his defeat, but his complete destruction. ( remember her words to him just before she turned his dogs loose to finish him.) Remember when Jon told her she didn’t have to face Ramsey at the battlefield parley and she said, No, I want to be here. Then she told Ramsey he would die tomorrow. Loved that scene.

      ‘ “Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappearAll memory of you will disappea

      Thats one of my fav quotes in the whole show. I know people were upset that she wanted revenge, and that she was happy he was dead – well guess what, I bet she was! Shall we count the many ways that Ramsey abused and diminished her? Frankly I cheered when she walked away. You go girl and get what it is that you’ve been wanting for so long

        Quote  Reply

    159. Grail King: not until they did their ~1500 mile trek and discovered how badly Robb screwed up and Jon being adamant did she realize they need him, she did the pragmatic thing ; swallowed her pride asked for the Vale and offered herself as a prize.

      Heh, is that what her message to Littlefinger actually said – that she offered herself to him? We didn’t see it on the show and although I could have sworn that at some point I saw an image of what her note to him said, I couldn’t find it just now when I googled it (all I saw was a bazillion images and discussions of her old note to Robb that LF used to bait Arya).

        Quote  Reply

    160. Sean C.,

      I know. And Sansa is the one who convinced Jon to fight to reclaim WF from the Boltons. If she thought he was an idiot or if she had “trust issues”, then don’t urge him to risk his neck. And once he agreed to go into battle, don’t withhold critical information from him.

      What I don’t get is why they couldn’t have scripted a brief scene, e.g.:

      Sansa: “Jon, LF offered to have the KotV help us.”
      Jon: “Do you trust him?”
      Sansa: “Only a fool would trust LF. He may not show up. He may show up – and side with the Boltons. He may wait until he sees which side is winning. Or, he may just stay back until both sides have nearly obliterated each other – and then pop in and take over WF for himself.”
      Jon: “Well, then, we’ll go with the army we’ve got instead of the army we wish we had.”

      Same result…but no indefensible concealment.

        Quote  Reply

    161. BrienneBabe,

      Here’s where I think the difference lies (diclsaimer: I like Jamie and Sansa).
      -Jamie comes from a long line of arrogant megalomaniacs. We expect him to be a terrible person, so his redemption arc is more powerful.
      -Sansa comes from a well-mannered and respectable family. She is the only one of her siblings that acts entitled and snobbish. Her “redemption arc” is really just her behaving the way she was always expected to behave.

      It’s not nearly as rewarding as Jamie’s redemption, but sure, let’s just oversimplify it and call it misogyny because any actual analysis would just be too hard.

        Quote  Reply

    162. dwm,

      I thought Sansa’s “redemption arc”, if you want to call it that, was her realization in S6e10 when standing in front of the WF heart tree:

      “I came here every day when I was a girl. I prayed to be somewhere else. Back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had.”

        Quote  Reply

    163. Flora Linden,

      Ah, missed key info… I read it this way:

      “I know Arya to Bastard. I know who the Bastard is, but I don’t know how they get that Bastard on the throne. But I do know who that bastard is.” Arya will be queen, imho. Whether or not she should be, IDK need more character development here but she’s my favorite character. If given the time checkout the reddit posting that translates the children musical piece.
      I miss Natalie Dormier, and I would totally be okay if they brought her back in as someone else, I would totally buy it and just go with it! One of my favorite actresses and truly brilliAnt.

        Quote  Reply

    164. I agree with what Stark Raven Rad, Firstone, Clob, Ten Bears, dwm, and probably various others said re: Sansa. I do think honesty would’ve been the best policy as far as the KotV situation.
      And I never disliked Sansa just because she’s “feminine”; I like other people who also fit within the conventional image of femininity, but irritate me less. My liking of Arya and Brienne isn’t a result of them doing traditionally “masculine” things or “taking on male attributes.” Everything isn’t about “the patriarchy” and misogyny. I’m a girl. But I just can’t see Sansa as a strong feminist icon or whatever they’ve been attempting to position her as. Of course, I also can’t imagine being upset that she wanted revenge on Ramsay and was happy to see him die–um, who wouldn’t?!?

      “what could she have done to save her brother?”
      Yelled “Zig-zag!”? xD;

      As for Dany, while I don’t think she abandoned all thought of the throne, I do believe in her full commitment to the primary fight which matters above all others. By boatsex time, I don’t think she’s ‘still about politics.’

        Quote  Reply

    165. ash,

      It’s only natural Sansa wanted revenge, I suppose all victims of rape and abuse want. Nowadays we expect the raped girls to turn to justice and fight for the rapists’ imprisonment, although I rather think the criminals won’t suffer as much as their victims. But during the Medieval system of justice to execute the culprits seems well deserved.

        Quote  Reply

    166. This is a great discussion with some excellent points made. Result is I’ve been thinking about Sansa and Jon a lot. I don’t see her as power hungry at all. I saw her actions as
      those of someone who was justified in seeking validation.

      Two conversations between Jon and Sansa stand out in my mind as possible insights into her personality. First the night before the battle, and then after the battle, when he is King, and they’re sort of arguing on the balcony.

      When they met before the BoB, Sansa didn’t feel as if she was being treated as an equal stakeholder with insight and experience that might have value. She wasn’t being listened to, and her point of view wasn’t being considered.

      While the men were all about tactics, and pincer formations, she was worrying about Ramsey, a monster she had special, unique, intimate knowledge of. She’d seen what he did to Reek/Theon, observed his relationship with Miranda, saw him flay the old woman who was loyal to the Starks, and we don’t even need to get into his sadistic, monstrous treatment of Sansa. So, she knew him in ways Jon, Ser Davos, and Tormund would never be able to get their heads around.

      In the heat of the moment Jon tried to argue that he had seen and known monsters and evil men and had to kill people, etc., etc., etc. as if she were challenging his supremacy as a warrior, when she wasn’t.

      She wanted him to listen to her. To appreciate the value of her experience with Ramsey. The most prescient, profound thing she said to him when he challenged her, was “just do’t do what he wants you to do!” And she was absolutely right. Jon allowed Ramsey to provoke him, emotionally, cause him to endanger himself and to risk their entire enterprise. (In his defense who wouldn’t have done the same, trying to rescue his younger brother?)

      Later on the balcony, Sansa reminded him that Robb and Eddard Stark were both good, brave men but they made mistakes and they were dead, so please don’t make the same mistakes they did. Jon’s response was “So I should listen to you more?” (something like that.) When really, she was simply telling him in so many words, please consider my opinions and my observations because they are just as valid as your own experiences.

      When Jon left her in charge, she was relieved, first because she was probably worried about what would happen if he left and no one was in charge, or he placed someone in charge who would not consider her as an equal stakeholder, and heir to Winterfell. When he placed her in charge he was recognizing her in front of all the Northern families, and he was telling her he knew she was capable. That recognition and that independence and leadership were earned.

      In a way, it’s interesting. Both Jon & Sansa took risks. But she also was cautious, sometimes to a point of letting her fears and her awareness cause her to not act. So she’d jump off the castle wall with Theon, or she’d make a bold decision about reaching out to Littlefinger, but she would warn against going to Dragonstone to meet with Dany. And her fears were not unreasonable. She drew on her knowledge of Stark history. Jon OTOH, was sometimes foolishly risky, as Sansa saw at the BoB, which justified Sansa urging him to caution.

      I’m looking forward to Season 8 Sansa very much. And I worry that risk taker Jon doesn’t pay the highest cost for taking foolish chances. I sometimes wonder if Jon ever grows or learns from his past behavior. The way his character has developed it’s almost Shakespearean, in that as the hero, his fatal flaw is risking his life, but a a great cost to others.

      Twice now, first at the Battle of the Bastards, when he blew up all his battle plans chasing after Rickon, and ending up standing there alone facing Ramsey’s army, and then much later when he was battling the Whitewalkers and the Night King up north, and Vyserion was lost.

      After it’s over, and he somehow manages to survive, he realizes the danger he put himself and others in, he makes apologies, but I wonder if he will ever demonstrate that he has learned, and that he has the discipline to curb his almost suicidal impulses.

        Quote  Reply

    167. Sorry for the long post but I have one more comment to add. I’m looking forward to Jon Tyrion, Jaime, and Bronn getting together to do battle. I think Jon would benefit greatly from learning how to be more imaginative, and even cunning in his tactics. Jon possesses courage and audacity, but he needs to be more creative. he needs to get out of his own way.

        Quote  Reply

    168. Roz’s Ghost,

      I really appreciate the thoughtful insights you’ve shared about Sansa in S6 & S7. I’m largely in agreement with your view of her, particularly about the fact that she’s not power-hungry (and never was). Once she had to deal with Littlefinger again after BotB, she knew enough to let him think she was going along with him – let him tell her about his vision of himself on the Iron Throne with her at his side, let him talk about how Jon was just her half-brother and that really she should rule the North. Those were Littlefinger’s ambitions, not hers.

      Roz’s Ghost: When they met before the BoB, Sansa didn’t feel as if she was being treated as an equal stakeholder with insight and experience that might have value. She wasn’t being listened to, and her point of view wasn’t being considered.

      I don’t entirely disagree with you here, but I do see it a bit differently: her aggressive, aggrieved attitude towards Jon in that conversation was unwarranted. Because in a battle strategy session Sansa was not an a priori equal stakeholder. Why on earth would they solicit her opinion about their plans? She knew that she had pertinent information about Ramsay to share, so why not just share it? Why the huffiness about no one listening to her, when she hadn’t until then said anything?

      Now it very well could have been nerves – I can get sharp with people when I’m anxious about something. So if they’d wanted to have some dramatic tension and raised voices in that scene, they could have tacked on a little self-recognition from Sansa at the end, something like, “I’m sorry I spoke so harshly to you just now. I’m just so worried.” But instead they made it seem like her anger at not being asked was justified (in her eyes and in Jon’s) … and I just can’t see that it was.

      I do agree with you that Sansa’s wariness and caution when it comes to danger is not always a bad thing, and that her restraint is not shared by her sister or her cousin. I’ve long thought that one of the main lessons that Sansa had before her (in the books and the show) was that you can’t always let caution win – sometimes you do have to take risks and fight for what you believe in. We’ve seen her start to do that and I’m looking forward to seeing more.

        Quote  Reply

    169. Roz’s Ghost:
      Sorry for the long post but I have one more comment to add. I’m looking forward to Jon Tyrion, Jaime, and Bronn getting together to do battle. I think Jon would benefit greatly from learning how to be more imaginative, and even cunning in his tactics.Jon possessescourage and audacity, but he needs to be more creative. he needs to get out of his own way.

      Yes, me too! I’m looking forward also to seeing Jaime out of Cersei’s shadow. I loved him in “No One” (S6E6) – his contempt for the Freys’ endless incompetence, and his pragmatic decency quickly yielding to ruthlessness when Edmure wouldn’t take his offer of being held hostage in comfort with his wife and child in Casterly Rock rather than going back to his cell at The Twins.

      Jaime learns, he adapts, and he manages to keep a sense of humor with him most of the time.

      Look at him dissing Walder Frey:
      Walder: Fear is a marvelous thing.
      Jaime: They don’t fear the Freys, though. They fear the Lannisters. We gave you the Riverlands to hold the Riverlands. If we have to ride north and take them back for you every time you lose them … why do we need you?

      I’ll admit that I even enjoyed his flippant comment to Brienne about Sansa, “In my experience, girls like her don’t live very long.” And of course I enjoyed her retort even more, “I don’t think you know many girls like her.”

      More of that Jaime, please! I can’t wait for his arrival at Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    170. Gwidhiel,

      I agree with you, in their battle strategy session, Sansa probably felt stressed, but let’s remember, even though the immediate dangers of combat were Jon’s, Sansa would also pay the consequences if they lost. So, IMO, she felt an urgency to be heard, to insist they not only consider their battle tactics, but to also be mindful of WHO they were fighting. They were caught u with setting up scenarios to “lure Ramsey” and she was telling them, no, he’s the one who sets the traps. You have no idea how sick this guy is. Their proficiency in battle was matched by her experience with Ramsey, and she obviously felt like their effectiveness would depend on them understanding that.

        Quote  Reply

    171. Roz’s Ghost:
      Gwidhiel,

      I agree with you, in their battle strategy session,Sansa probably felt stressed, but let’s remember, even though the immediate dangers of combat were Jon’s, Sansawould also pay the consequences if they lost.So, IMO, she felt an urgency to be heard, to insist they not only consider their battle tactics, but to also be mindful of WHO they were fighting. They were caught u with setting up scenarios to “lure Ramsey” and she was telling them, no, he’s the one who sets the traps. You have no idea how sick this guy is.Their proficiency in battlewas matched by her experience with Ramsey, and she obviously felt like their effectiveness would depend on them understanding that.

      Oh I fully agree with you that Sansa had a lot riding on that battle – they all did. And I also agree that she’d spotted some flawed reasoning at work as they discussed laying a trap for Ramsay. But I still don’t think her accusatory tone with Jon was warranted in that conversation. She certainly had something important to share, but getting annoyed because they didn’t think to ask her if she had any thoughts simply wasn’t justified, IMHO. And we can come up with reasons why she was needlessly sharp with him – like nerves, or wanting to be recognized – but we’re stuck speculating because the writers didn’t seem to acknowledge that there was anything weird about that exchange.

      For myself, when they have Sansa say or do something that seems opaque and in need of explanation, I assume that the lack of explanation was deliberately done in service of a) creating dramatic tension in the moment and b) keeping people guessing about Sansa’s intentions, particularly about her loyalty to Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    172. Gwidhiel,

      HBO had the letter, she states: I’ll see that you are properly rewarded or close to that, letting LF to think about the reward.

      I think Reddit also had people who zoomed it and decipher some of the letter.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Gwidhiel,

      You can’t wait for Jaime’s arrival at WF?

      I’d like for him to find out who killed all the Freys, i.e., Brienne’s new BFF.
      👸🏻

      (from S7e1)
      Jaime: “Even Lannisters can’t survive without allies. Where are our allies now? You saw what happened to Walder Frey and his family.”

      Cersei: “I heard. How could we ever trust a man like that?”

      Jaime: “We couldn’t. He was a useless, old coward, but the Freys supported us. Now they’re all dead. Whoever killed them is no friend of ours…”

        Quote  Reply

    174. Roz’s Ghost,

      I desperately hope that Season 8 will provide some indication that Jon has developed.

      That whole conversation with Sansa where she tells him he has to be smarter than Robb/Ned is so pointed – and yet Season 7 went on to depict him apparently making all the same mistakes.

      If we enter Season 8 and Jon is completely blindsided by the consequences of all his decisions in Season 7, remaining the naive “Northern fool”, then I think it would be an absolute travesty for his character and this entire show.

      At the very least I expect him to be prepared for Cersei’s double-cross; gaining the support of Daenerys and her dragons was always more important than Cersei anyway. And I expect him to be prepared for the Northern Lords to utterly resent him and have a contingency plan to deal with the backlash to him bending the knee – surely he should have learnt that from the Night’s Watch mutiny that resulted in his own murder.

      If Season 8 depicts a lovestruck, naive, honourable, foolhardy Jon that has barely developed as a character in 8 seasons, then I’d consider it a disgrace.

        Quote  Reply

    175. Ten Bears,

      I came up with a little fanfic scenario a while back of how that could play out. i.e. Jamie blows Arya’s cover. It’s probably unlikely to happen this way, but I think it makes sense and could be an interesting way to reveal it.

      We know that Cersei and Jamie sent a detachment north to investigate what happened at The Twins when Arya comes across the Lannister soldiers. It stands to reason that they would question the Frey women left alive, and they would say that a young girl with dark hair wore the face of Lord Walder and after revealing herself spoke the words “Tell them the North remembers. Tell them Winter came for House Frey.”

      At first, Jamie & Cersei wouldn’t think much of it, as they would have little to go on. But when Jamie arrives at Winterfell and sees Arya, the pieces come together.

        Quote  Reply

    176. Ten Bears
      Jaime: “We couldn’t. He was a useless, old coward, but the Freys supported us. Now they’re all dead. Whoever killed them is no friend of ours…”

      True, but Jaime is now operating as a singular noun, not plural. Which is not to say that he won’t encounter some heat & even hatred at Winterfell (Arya had eyed him at The Twins while wearing her serving girl’s face), but he’s still a valuable player by himself and the Starks aren’t likely to ignore that as they prepare to face the AotD. All hands on deck.

        Quote  Reply

    177. Enharmony1625,

      I had a whole fanfic scenario sketched out in which Sansa would put two and two together after finding Arya’s mask collection in S7, and realize Arya was the one who took out House Frey… and singlehandedly avenged the Red Wedding.

      Walder/Arya’s line, “But you didn’t slaughter every one of the Starks. No. That was your mistake. Leave one wolf alive and the sheep are never safe” was a virtual announcement of the identity of the avenging angel. I figured if word had already reached KL and Lannister reinforcements were already on their way to “keep the peace because of some trouble at the Twins” by the middle of S1e1, surely the news would’ve reached WF by mid-S7.

        Quote  Reply

    178. Enharmony1625,

      👸🏻🚂⚠️ Arya Thread Derailment Warning

      Here’s the unabridged version….

      ————
      I really thought that upon finding Arya’s face mask collection, Sansa would realize that Arya had singlehandedly avenged the Red Wedding.

      • I figured the “Previously On” segment would flash back to Sansa & Tyrion in S4e1 to remind us how distraught Sansa was when she learned what happened at the Red Wedding:

      (S4e1: Sansa with Tyrion)
      Sansa: “I lie awake all night staring at the canopy thinking about how they died.”
      ***
      Sansa: “Do you know what they did to my brother? How they sewed his direwolf’s head onto his body? And my mother. They say they cut her throat to the bone and threw her body in the river.”

      • In the S7e1 cold open, Arya all but publicly announced who was bringing winter to House Frey: a surviving Stark. She intentionally left behind a witness to tell people what happened: a face-changing girl masquerading as Walder Frey condemned the Freys for slaughtering the Starks at the Red Wedding, killed them all with poisoned wine, and used a variation of the Stark words to Walder’s stunned child-wife: “When people ask you what happened here, tell them: The North remembers. Tell them: Winter came for House Frey.”

      (from S7e1 Cold Open)
      “Walder Frey”: “But you didn’t slaughter every one of the Starks. No, no, that was your mistake. You should have ripped them all out, root and stem…”
      “Leave one wolf alive and the sheep are never safe.”

      (“Walder” peels off face, revealing that “he” is really a face-changing girl. She turns to Walder’s stunned child-wife and says calmly)

      Arya: “When people ask you what happened here, tell them: The North remembers. Tell them: Winter came for House Frey.”

      • We can assume some time had passed between the cold open and the ensuing events in e1. During e1, Jaime told Cersei in KL that the Freys “are all dead”; and the friendly Lannister soldiers Arya met in the Riverlands had been sent to “keep the peace” because of “some trouble with the Freys at The Twins.”

      (from S7e1, Jaime & Cersei in KL)
      Jaime: “Even Lannisters can’t survive without allies. Where are our allies now? You [heard] what happened to Walder Frey and his family.”
      ****
      Jaime: “…. He was a useless old coward, but the Freys supported us. Now they’re all dead. Whoever killed them is no friend of ours…
      ———————
      (from S7e1, Arya sharing food offered by friendly Lannister soldiers)
      ***
      Arya: “What are you doing in the Riverlands?”
      Captain Understatement: “There’s been some trouble with the Freys up at The Twins, so we’re part of the army that’s been sent to keep the peace.”

      • I’d bet the story quickly reached the Crossroads Inn, and was circulated widely by the HPNN (Hot Pie News Network). Surely, by S7e6 it reached WF.

      • In S7e4, Sansa had learned about Arya’s “list of names” and that most who were on it are “already dead.”

      • In S7e6, nosy Sansa, snooping around in Arya’s room, found Arya’s face mask collection. From their tense conversation after Arya caught Sansa rummaging through her stuff, Sansa learned that Arya trained to be a Faceless Man in Braavos, and that Arya can “be other people.” Arya explained: “With the faces I can choose. I can become someone else. Speak in their voice, live in their skin.”

      (From S7e6)
      Sansa: “What are these?”
      Arya: “My faces.”
      Sansa: “Where did you get them?”
      Arya: “In Braavos, while I was training to be a Faceless Man.”
      Sansa: “What does that mean?”
      ****
      Sansa: “Those faces, what are they?”
      ***
      Sansa: “Tell me what they are!”
      Arya: “…..With the faces I can choose. I can become someone else. Speak in their voice, live in their skin.”

      • I was really expecting Sansa to put two and two together and realize:
      Holy sh*t! You’re the face-changing girl who pulled off the Revenge of the Red Wedding! You cut off Walder’s face and wiped out all the Freys, didn’t you!”
      (High fives & hugs)
      “‘Winter came for House Frey.’ Ha! That was a nice touch.”

      Arya: “That’s not all. Wanna hear what I did to his two jerkoff sons who cut our mother’s throat and butchered our pregnant sister in law? And the Frey doofus who bragged about sewing Grey Wind’s head onto Robb’s body?”

        Quote  Reply

    179. Gwidhiel,

      Jaime’s. safe. He’s. not on Arya’s list. Yet. He could be if she finds out he put a knife through Jory’s eye and out the back of his skull.

      More likely she’ll be on board with Jon’s “We’re all breathing/We’re all on the same team” approach.

        Quote  Reply

    180. Ten Bears,

      Ah, I forgot about the part where she says “You didn’t slaughter all of the Starks…” That’s another giveaway. So yeah, it will be very interesting to see if word reaches Winterfell about Arya’s eradication of House Frey. I feel that this secret of hers has to become known for dramatic reasons, because it opens up a very interesting dynamic between her and Jon and Sandor. I wonder how Sandor would react? He is no stranger to violence and vengeful acts, but is the FM one step too far even for him?

      Also (minor casting spoiler),

      there was an actress cast early on in filming whose character name was given as “Serra” whom fans assume will be a Frey given that there is a Serra Frey in the books. Could she play a part in this reveal?

        Quote  Reply

    181. Enharmony1625,

      “I wonder how Sandor would react?

      ————
      • I think Arya and Sandor had this philosophical debate in S4e8(?). Paraphrasing;

      Sandor: “Poison? Poison’s a woman’s weapon. Real men kill with steel.”
      Arya: “That’s just your stupid pride talking. That’s why you’ll never be a great killer.”

      • I’d like to see Lord Manderly’s reaction: “I was wrong! Arya Stark avenged the Red Wedding!”

        Quote  Reply

    182. “I know A to B. I know what B is, but I don’t know how they get B. But I do know B.”

      I C what she did there.

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *