Smoke and Flaming Swords in Game of Thrones Season 8 Magheramorne Shoot

Beric Dondarrion Richard Dormer 706

As Game of Thrones continues filming its eighth and final season, this evening we bring you the latest on the ongoing shoot at Magheramorne Quarry’s new green screen set. The last two night shoots saw the return of a fan favorite and more marching armies. Spoilers today are mild but suggestive, so venture below the cut at your own risk!

GoTlike Locations shows that lately production has been taking place concurrently at Shane’s Castle, Saintfield and Magheramorne, but the latter remains the central filming location, and the one out of which we are getting the most juicy spoilers. Case in point, Davy Orr shared this video from Tuesday’s night shoot, which features a flaming sword:

Please ignore the crewman with a light-stick to the right; the actual flaming sword first appears at the 00:17 mark and is glimpsed repeatedly until a cast member brings it out and we see it clearly. The last 20 seconds of the video show this again, but zoomed-in.

Positive identification is impossible here, but who could it be but Ser Beric Dondarrion? We last saw the knight with his special blade in “Beyond the Wall,” which is incidentally the episode in which his companion Thoros, the only other character known to have wielded a flaming sword, died. I’m sure this will provoke many theories of Jon or someone else wielding Lightbringer, but I’ll stick to my guns — if nothing else, because it’d mean we’ll get to listen to Richard Dormer’s voice for at least one more time!

Tonight another scene is being shot, with many more extras, as we can see in the following photos provided by GOTlikeLocations. But that’s not what stands out the most:

This was taken before shooting; they were testing the smoke machines. Photo: GOTlikeLocations

This was taken before shooting; they were testing the smoke machines. Photo: GOTlikeLocations

The smoke covered the entire set. Photo: GOTlikeLocations

The smoke covered the entire set. Photo: GOTlikeLocations

The extras appear to be wildling wights. Photo: GOTlikeLocations

The extras appear to be wildling wights. Photo: GOTlikeLocations

Though it’s difficult to be sure without video footage, these soldiers appears to be shambling more than marching, which points to the army of the dead. That would also fit the smoke, as White Walkers are known to bring a creepy “white mist” with them. Smoke machines are routinely used to add some texture and atmosphere to a scene, so we shouldn’t necessarily expect any fire — it could just as easily be mist or fog.

UPDATE: There is fire after all! It may be for a different scene, as there are fewer extras, and positioned differently. Whatever the case may be, GOTlikeLocations delivers again:

Photo: GOTlikeLocations

Photo: GOTlikeLocations

Photo: GOTlikeLocations

Photo: GOTlikeLocations

Photo: GOTlikeLocations

Photo: GOTlikeLocations

The horizontal “fire rods” are just used to provide lighting from an actual flame source, so you should probably not pay much attention to their particular shape. What about the other fire source, though? Does this concern the wights amidst bonfires we reported yesterday? Are these humans in an encampment? Or something else?

So, what do you think? Will Beric Dondarrion escape the Breach of Eastwatch and live to fight another day? Will we see him fighting the army of the dead in season eight? Are the poor White Walkers constantly towing a smoke machine just to appear more scary?

108 responses

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    1. I didn’t catch the flaming sword the first time I watched, as I was too distracted by the person on the right-hand side of the shot who appears to have a glowing/flaming sword-like object and is running towards something and then back again. Can anyone make out what that’s all about? It’s clearly not like a flaming sword, but it’s something curious. (I’m getting ready to cringe with embarrassment when I find out it’s a traffic cone).

      I’m going to imagine it’s Beric too; I’d like to see him again. I also think that seeing as we’ve seen Stannis and Beric/Thoros with their non-Lightbringer flaming swords, achieved through potions or magic or whatnot, that the idea of a literal flaming sword is not going to be what Lightbringer is all about. I feel it will be much more metaphorical or symbolic than that. I would be quite disappointed if we see Jon/Dany/Sandor/Arya/Brienne/Jaime (whoever ends up in the 1:1 with the NK) with a flaming sword. I think the concept would have been cheapened by the featuring of other flaming swords earlier in the story.

      And Luka, you cracked me up with the thought of the NK forcing his wights to tow around a giant smoke machine just to satisfy his own vanity. I think I’m going to have to remember this when I’m sat weeping in a year’s time because the NK is taking out some of my favourites.

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    2. To me, the big question is not whether Beric survived the Wall collapse, but who will pick up the flaming sword when he falls in battle. I’m rooting for Sandor to conquer his phobia of fire.

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    3. ..all I know is they better go back to the wights of Hardhome. Those wights were really scary, no smoke machine necessary. I don’t want to see any more amusing wights, funny wights, thoughtful wights…none of that shiznit.

      And yeah, it’s probably Beric with the flaming sword. He was right behind Tormund as they jumped clear of the collapsing section of wall. I guess he survived.

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    4. Che

      the NK forcing his wights to tow around a giant smoke machine just to satisfy his own vanity.

      Well, they went to all the trouble of getting those chains to haul Viserion out of the lake – it would be a shame to let them go to waste. Wights, with their repurposed bodies, must be enthusiastic about the concept of sustainability, I imagine.

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    5. Che,

      I’m in agreement regarding Lightbringer in relation to flaming swords. Book!Thoros used a flaming sword as well. If the show does have Lightbringer, and even the books, I’ve always assumed it will be much more ‘special’ than simply a sword on fire both in appearance and what it can do.

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    6. Jared:
      Beric! My man the Lightning Lord is making that last life of his count …

      I’m going to wait for him to lose the other eye and start swinging like Blinkin in Men in Tights. Some rare GoT comedy 😛

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    7. Anon,
      Skeletal wights are the worst. I swear that’s the Hound flashdancing with Thoros’ flaming sword on the right. He’s a maniac.

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    8. Probably the 1st flaming sword is Berics sword..He will not die until gives the kiss of life to someone important..to Danny or Jon or to their child perhaps..before the season ends..The other person who is running on the right hand side and wielding a second flaming sword..is taller and look like Sandor..he in S8 probably will wield Heartsbane(is a big sword and fits with the Hounds tall stature) who he will use with easiness ..He is the only who does not have a VS sword..so that counts..Also in the previous scenes we saw Mell there in the battlefield..so I assume that she will sacrifice herself as nissa nissa for whomever be AA to pull out the Lightbringer from her fiery heart and to kill the NK in a 1/1 combat.She has inside her Rhilors fire magic and the ruby she wears is a symbol of that and also had magic powers(can makes you look like young).As for the smokes in the next photos is the efe storm/mist that used for the WW when they appear..Remember the battle of the Hardhome in S5 and the big storm that got appeared before the NK attack..is the same.

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    9. Artemisia,

      There is no confirmation Melisandre is/was there. That was just someone seeing things. Another traffic cone most likely. Until there’s real PROOF that the Red Priestess(es) will engage themselves in actual battle I won’t believe they will. They’ll sit in tents like Mel did for the BotB and every other battle so far most likely.

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    10. Clob:
      Artemisia,

      There is no confirmation Melisandre is/was there.That was just someone seeing things.Another traffic cone most likely.Until there’s real PROOF that the Red Priestess(es) will engage themselves in actual battle I won’t believe they will.They’ll sit in tents like Mel did for the BotB and every other battle so far most likely.

      I doubt if Mell now where is the great war and her AA fighting..will sit on the tents..She will be there for to sacrifice herself for what she believes..The Lightbringer.

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    11. Luka Nieto:
      Eonwe,

      One of my favorite (yet most unexpected) changes from the books, for sure

      Oh? I kinda like what he did in the book. Well, I didnt really need the LS stuff I guess after the fact. Still, Beric or no Beric doesn’t make much difference to me as was evident in the other thread when he didn’t make one of my “tantrum tiers.” 😛

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    12. Freakin Kylo Renn, showing up where he isn’t wanted.

      I could never make sense of thinking Beric and Tormund would have died in the season 7 finale Wall collapse – not that everyone has to have a major death scene, but to keep and expand Beric’s character to this point and not have some sort of further purpose wouldn’t have seemed right. Of course, I just love Richard Dormer, so any potential of seeing him again is very welcome. 😉 The photo/scene of him with flaming sword is one of my absolute favourite shots of the entire series.

      Hopefully they don’t ‘wight’ him, poor dude’s already mostly dead.

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    13. Pigeon,

      “mostly dead”
      It might have been cool if the wight wouldn’t attack him because he’s closer to being them than living. It’s probably too late for that sort of thing though.

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    14. Clob:
      Pigeon,

      “mostly dead”
      It might have been cool if the wight wouldn’t attack him because he’s closer to being them than living.It’s probably too late for that sort of thing though.

      “I’ve seen worse!” 😜

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    15. Clob,

      Also, your reference to Blinkin had me rolling. I need to watch that again!

      At this point I want the traffic cone to be in the credits.

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    16. Artemisia: I assume that she will sacrifice herself as nissa nissa for whomever be AA to pull out the Lightbringer from her fiery heart and to kill the NK in a 1/1 combat.

      For the millionth time…the Nissa Nissa legend has NEVER been mentioned in the show, not once. It is far, far too late for them to be introducing it in the final season. People who are clamoring to see some woman stabbed in the heart need to find something else to obsess over.

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    17. Could the orange thing on the right be one of the orange balls that they use to indicate to the actors where a dragon or giant will be CGI later?

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    18. Firannion:

      i agree…but isnt there referred in S2 the prophesy for the Prince that was promised who will keep a flaming sword in his hand for to to defeat the White Walkers ?In that scene with Stannis appearance for first time and with the burning statues ..you know

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    19. Firannion,

      “To me, the big question is not whether Beric survived the Wall collapse, but who will pick up the flaming sword when he falls in battle. I’m rooting for Sandor to conquer his phobia of fire.”
      ———————–

      It’s got to be Sandor. He’s the only one who fits Melisandre’s Warrior of Light prophecy from S2.

      And then there’s this…

      Renly: “Born amidst salt and smoke!” What is he, a ham?
      ***
      Hot Pie: “Big ugly fellow. Foul mouth and a face like a half-burnt ham…”
      Pod: “The Hound.”
      Hot Pie: “That’s the one.”

      (Don’t mind me. I’m overtired and shouldn’t be awake.)

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    20. Yay! Beric and his beautiful voice live to fight another day! So I’m guessing Tormund lives as well? Either way, I think that was the assumption since they weren’t shown onscreen after the Wall collapsed in the Dragon and the Wolf. And I agree, I don’t think the whole Azor Ahai – Nissa Nissa prophecy will be introduced so late. I mean we did see Gilly pause on a page about Azor Ahai, but I think that was more of an Easter egg. Even then, I never really thought the flaming sword/Lightbringer in the legend/prophecy was a literal sword. My own tinfoil is that it’s, in part, an origin story about the world’s first dragons to combat the first Long Night.

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    21. Dunno how many times it needs to be said.. lightbringer ain’t a sword. 🙈

      It’s an 8000yr old (heavily adapted) metaphor for the tool/s that will bring an end to the long night.

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    22. Dark Sister,

      I agree.
      They are not going to introduce all that mythology with only 6 episodes to go.
      I want to see how they get from Beric dead in the books to leading end game character on TV.

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    23. Firannion: For the millionth time…the Nissa Nissa legend has NEVER been mentioned in the show, not once. It is far, far too late for them to be introducing it in the final season. People who are clamoring to see some woman stabbed in the heart need to find something else to obsess over.

      Definitely agree. That feels way too “high magic”/Harry Potter-ish for GoT, so I’ve never put any stock in that legend being anything more than a metaphor. If it’s mentioned at all in S8, it will almost certainly be in passing or as an easter egg.

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    24. Ten Bears,

      Hot Pie, the wise fool. When I do another rewatch of the series, I need to listen carefully for other “truths” spoken by him. Of course we have “Winterhell” and “I’m like you, Arry. I’m a survivor.”

      At least the Westeros that remains after the war will still have good baking. 🙂

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    25. Firannion,

      That would be awesome. Jaime, Brienne, Jon, Arya, etc… all have Valyrian Steel so the fire would not particularly add any effectiveness to their weapons. I still suspect this is Beric but man that would be cool to have Sandor wielding that given his phobia! Thanks for planting that thought in my head.

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    26. Enharmony1625:
      Ten Bears,

      Hot Pie, the wise fool. When I do another rewatch of the series, I need to listen carefully for other “truths” spoken by him. Of course we have “Winterhell” and “I’m like you, Arry. I’m a survivor.”

      At least the Westeros that remains after the war will still have good baking.

      Hot Pie’s gotta have a Valyrian Steel skillet somewhere in that kitchen of his.

      The chef who was promised!

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    27. Mr Derp: Hot Pie’s gotta have a Valyrian Steel skillet somewhere in that kitchen of his.

      Oh man…now you’ve got me picturing the infomercials for Valyrian steel cookware sets: ‘Light in weight! Distributes heat evenly! Nonstick! Easy to clean! Only 999.99 for all 18 pieces! Operators are standing by now to take your order at 1 (800) HOT – PIES…’

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    28. Che:
      Off topic, but did anyone see Tobias Menzies is going to play Prince Philip in the next season of The Crown? Exciting!

      It’s going to be odd with so many new actors. I do have to admit that I didn’t enjoy S2 nearly as much as S1. Maybe the changeovers will give it a little oxygen.

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    29. Firannion: Oh man…now you’ve got me picturing the infomercials for Valyrian steel cookware sets: ‘Light in weight! Distributes heat evenly! Nonstick! Easy to clean! Only 999.99 for all 18 pieces! Operators are standing by now to take your order at 1 (800) HOT – PIES…’

      I hope there’s some cutlery in the set. Otherwise, I’m not sure blunt damage from pots & pans will do the trick. 🙂

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    30. Mr Derp: Hot Pie’s gotta have a Valyrian Steel skillet somewhere in that kitchen of his.

      The chef who was promised!

      Ok, now I want to see Hot Pie bonk a WW in the face with a Valyrian Steel skillet. Then he uses the ice shards left from the disintegrated WW to cool his drinks. 🙂

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    31. Are you tired of not being able to kill a white walker at the same time as you’re cooking dinner for a busy family?
      *Shows a black and white clip of Hot Pie struggling to cook with one hand while trying to fight off a white walker with the other hand shaking his head at the screen in utter frustration*

      Well, put down your bulky dragonglass caves and pick up your phone because boy howdy do we have a deal for you! Try out the new Valyrian steel cookware sets: ‘Light in weight! Distributes heat evenly! Nonstick! Easy to clean! Only 999.99 for all 18 pieces! Operators are standing by now to take your order at 1 (800) HOT – PIES…’

      But be warned, this is a limited time deal!
      *To remind you of this, a stop watch counting down to the beginning of the Long Night is showing like a ticking time bomb at the bottom of the screen*

      Please, don’t believe me. Just ask this satisfied customer…

      “Before I used Valyrian steel blades, I was a mess. No one would come to my restaurant because they were constantly being harassed by white walkers. My parents disowned me. Lannister soldiers wanted to torture me. I used to fall asleep crying and wetting myself. Now, with my Valyrian steel skillets, people I don’t even know give me high fives on the street. My boss even made me head kidney pie baker! I am forever in debted to my Valyrian steel skillets. Thank you my magical friend.

      But wait, there’s more! Order all 18 pieces now and we’ll even throw in a set of armor so all your friends will think you’re also a knight!

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    32. Is this at the wall? Maybe end scene of episode 1?

      About the Nissa Nissa theory. Who said they haven’t have enough time clearly doesn’t take in consideration a couple of things:
      – Season 8 will contain episodes that are bigger, probably every episode is around 80 minutes. That would mean a 9 a 10 episodes season like the past. We can expect at least 8hours of screentime for season 8.
      – Only 2 storylines: Cercei and the White Walkers. instead of the big amounts from the past (8/10). that means more screentime per storyline the story will flow more like a Lotr movie next year because of the lesser I mean fewer storylines. Look at that movie how much mythology you can put in 8hours (the first 2 movies are around 7hr). And look at the mythology they put in the last movie, the army of the death. Everything can be put into the last season.

      Almost every small piece of the Nissa Nissa story is already in place:
      – Lightbringer is mentioned.
      – Mellisandre mentioned in season 7 that Dany and another both have a role to play in the war to come, but she wasn’t really forthcoming what that role was, I always had the feeling because saying: Queen your role is to die. Will not be handle very good with our queen.
      – We already saw a Nissa Nissa kind of like scene: Somebody putting a dragonglass in somebodies heart, transforming the person into a White Walker. Even Benjen said that he undergone something like that only with a small alteration. Lightbringer is Valerian Steel (consist of dragonglass).

      We already saw 80% that is needed to give us the Nissa Nissa theory. We only need one or two scenes with Mellisandre explaining that one need to die by the hand of the other by plunching a sword into the heart that consist of dragonglass. And we need a scene where Bran show us how it works. only 2 scenes.

      Do I think they will go with this? Yes I think in the end Jon will kill Dany (maybe she loses her mind). Do I think Jon is aware of the Nissa Nissa part? No. It will be all coincidence. We understand the Nissa Nissa part only after it happened. And probably it never get mentioned in the show like they never mentioned that the younger brother of Cercei is going to kill her, but we can expect it will happen in the show, they just don’t like talking about prophecy in the show.

      And why do people think Dany needs to be Nissa Nissa? What if Jaime is Azor Ahai and Cercei is Nissa Nissa? That explain why they never mention the prohecy.

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    33. Artemisia: i agree…but isnt there referred in S2 the prophesy for the Prince that was promised who will keep a flaming sword in his hand for to to defeat the White Walkers ?In that scene with Stannis appearance for first time and with the burning statues ..you know

      Everything Mel told Stannis turned out to be wrong, or at the very least, misinterpreted, so I wouldn’t put too much stock into what happened between those two.

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    34. kevin1989,

      The Azor Ahai part will be with Jon killing Mellisandre as nissa nissa..and not Danny and that because Danny will is PREGNANT[the last photo between of them confirmed that]..Do you think that Jon is like Stannis a religious zealot who followed a prophesy and killed his daughter as nissa nissa for to be AzorAhai? NOPE..You have been trolled to believe that Jon is AA and Danny nissa nissa since S1 [i have heard that theory from then]…Prophesies should not taken literally ..otherwise can bite you in the ass and you get disappointed ..Even and Jon to is AA[witch is so predictable and cliche] and Mellisandra to say to Jon to kill Danny as nissa nissa..he will choose to kill Mellisandra as nissa nissa instead of his pregnant wife..because Mellisandra has the fire magic powers inside her who can fill the Lightbringer with the true Rhilors power..[go see S5 Jon and Mellisandras scenes if you dont believe..its foreshadowing there with her being nissa nissa for the Lightbringer].,,,Also there are and other females who Jon love more than his life..One of his sisters/cousins could also fit for the role of nissa nissa better than Danny..As for Jaime AA …i think that will be better than Jon AA..because Jaime now is capable to kill his sister/lover as nissa nissa for to save the world from her madness..That makes better sense than Jon AA/Danny Nissa Nissa[witch everyone expects to happen..but will not]..With Dannys pregnancy already confirmed clearly…that theory Danny nissa nissa for Jon has already debunked…because their child will be born and she will live at the end

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    35. Mr Derp: Everything Mel told Stannis turned out to be wrong, or at the very least, misinterpreted, so I wouldn’t put too much stock into what happened between those two.

      Stannis was a completely fool..believing that AA prophesy literal [who is just a metaphor] and giving to Mellisandre the power to destroy his life and his family for a prophesy ..Mellisandre is evil and she sacrifices people for her bloody evil god ..Religion in GRRM world [as in our world] only destruction and chaos can bring..I hope Jon isnt fooled to believe that is AA by her..otherwise he will end up like Stannis with his life destroyed and dead in the end..Jons should not believe in that fake prophesy.

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    36. Artemisia: because Danny will is PREGNANT[the last photo between of them confirmed that]…
      With Dannys pregnancy already confirmed clearly…

      There you go again using the word “confirmed.” Nothing was confirmed regarding Daenerys being pregnant or anything else with that odd photo. Actually, many people believe that was quite possibly an old photo.

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    37. Clob: There you go again using the word “confirmed.”Nothing was confirmed regarding Daenerys being pregnant or anything else with that odd photo.Actually, many people believe that was quite possibly an old photo.

      i agree..but Dannys pregnancy is definitely an outcome reality event in S8

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    38. Artemisia,

      I never stated that I believed Jon to be AA so I haven’t been trolled, I only stated what if, and I was talking about that people seems under the impression there isn’t enough time. I know you are a big fan of Dany and trolled since season one she’s the big hero of the story and under the impression she will be pregnant because she’s suppose to be the hero, but you’ve been trolled since season 1, she’s not going to end up on the hero side of the story with every info there’s about season 8 and it’s already clear that she’s not going to be pregnant. Take my statement with a pinch of salt because I don’t know what’s going to happen, but if you can call me being trolled by D&D for believing Dany be Nissa Nissa I can call people being trolled for believing in Dany as the hero.

      About the prophecy, what if bran goes into the past and confirm the prophecy, do you really think he will go against it? And I see you’re convinced yourself that Jon would do the opposite of what Melisande wants him to do with the prophecy, she brought them together, so he should leave her then?

      Clob,
      Most of the time with Dany fans, they will deny the facts when it’s negative about her beloved Dragon Queen (with 100% titles). They are convinced the story is about her (and not Jon which is the child(song) of fire and ice), and I think those are the people who Maisie was talking about, which will not be satisfied with the ending, because everything that’s negative about Dany will be a bad ending in their mind. But we will see what will happen. But the more spoilers we read here on WotW the more I’m convinced she will lose everything. And if she’s the hero, why the seven hells is the past of Jon so important, he already bowed to her so why is it so important to know that he’s the one needed to be on the throne, they both are going to rule the seven kingdoms, could have been handled without knowing his past. In my book, the only reason for us to know that information and putting it in the story because we are going to choose Jon over Dany in the last season.

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    39. Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,

      You should see my Confirmation Bias-Tainted, cherry-picked proof that Sandor is The Warrior of Light (= books! Azor Ahai).

      Interesting, what if Lightbringer isn’t one person? It’s Sandor, it’s Jon, it’s Jaime it’s …. the list goes on. just like with Lotr, it’s not Frodo that ended Sauron. It was Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Aragorn and all the heroes. But together they defeated the enemy.

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    40. kevin1989,

      I think we should be a little bit careful that we’re not comparing LOTR with GoT too much. I get that both stories have similarities and GRRM has talked about a bittersweet ending that can be comparable to LOTR, but I think a show as monumental as GoT will want to make a point to have an ending that distinguishes itself from LOTR instead of copying it. At least that’s my hope.

      Again, I understand the comparisons and I think a lot of them are apt, but sometimes I get the feeling, based on a lot of the comments in each thread, that a lot of people are expecting the ending to be some carbon copy of LOTR, and I personally hope that won’t be the case.

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    41. kevin1989,

      Here’s the show version of the prophecy, which I understand is different from the one in the books:

      S2e1, Melisandre

      “After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas, and the dead shall rise in the North.”

      “In the ancient books, it’s written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer.

      Stannis Baratheon, Warrior of Light, your sword awaits you…”

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    42. Anon:
      Actual comment!

      Although you don’t quite make the club, I offer a hearty handshake from those of us who write the comment we intend to write, and if it’s first, it’s first. If not, it’s not.

      I personally think the flaming sword trick is tied to being a fire priest/priestess/wight, and Jon will be able to do it, too.

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    43. Mr Derp,

      Oh, I didn’t mean storywise the same, more like, there’s enough time if you compare it to Lotr (or another franchise, Harry Potter introduced the Deathly Hallows in the last part, or the past of Dumbledore). So it was more a comparison about time frame by giving another example.

      Ten Bears,
      I understand there’s a difference, but I think that D&D changed it not because they want to change the story later on, more as that they don’t want to give to much information to the audience what can happen later, by keeping that part of the prohecy’s for themself the audience can truly be shocked later. For instance with the Volanqar prophecy, we bookreaders understand that Jaime or Tyrion are the Volanqar and what will happen later in the books. We can expect that to happen in the show. But they kept that part of the prohecy out of the show because when it happen people will be shocked more.

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    44. kevin1989,

      “…For instance with the Volanqar prophecy, we bookreaders understand that Jaime or Tyrion are the Volanqar and what will happen later in the books. We can expect that to happen in the show. But they kept that part of the prophecy out of the show because when it happen people will be shocked more.”
      ———————-

      As a “pre-books reader”, I’m always reluctant to transplant things from the books I’ve gleaned second-hand (mostly from WoW). Part of the reason is that the show should be “self-contained.” Events have to make sense within the show universe. On the other hand, I figure “big ticket items” like the identity of the Valonqar will be the same in the books and show. Maggy the Frog has been batting 1.000 on the show. I assume she’s got the same track record in the books.

      Anyway, are we sure Jaime and Tyrion are the only Valonqar candidates? Jaime’s only at 6-1 in my latest rankings…

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    45. If Valonqar should be male, little brother, so are there in the show
      Jamie
      Tyrion
      Jon
      Bran
      Sandor
      Theon
      Am I right? Anybody missed?

      But I’m not sure, whether book and show must lead to a similar end for Cersei or similar endings at all – we talked about that before.
      I would prefer different endings.

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    46. Firannion,

      I thought he might begin to conquer his fear after seeing visions in the flames, but then he froze up in front of the burning wight polar bear. Ultimately Sandor will kill his brother with fire, and Beric told him they would meet again, perhaps the Hound will end up with the flaming sword, imagine the damage he could do? It would be epic, I hope it happens.

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    47. cos alpha: Am I right? Anybody missed?

      Euron was Balon’s little brother, and he has already bragged to Cersei about having ‘two good hands.’ Could foreshadow that they are good for strangulation, which Jaime’s immobile gold hand would not be.

      There are all sorts of long-shot possibilities as well, I’m sure. For instance, if the NK raises the dead of King’s Landing and Cersei has already fled to hide in the crypts, her own younger son might conceivably burst out and kill her. Crafting a wight with a smashed head who is still recognizably Tommen would be quite a challenge for the prosthetic makeup crew! Somehow I doubt that’s the answer to the Valonqar riddle, though.

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    48. cos alpha,

      Yes, and as Firannion noted, Euron arguably belongs in the Valinqar race. (On one hand – excuse the pun – Euron came on late to the scene; on the other hand, if Euron’s going to claim his “prize” and marry Cersei, and if Cersei is really knocked up [ugh. #NoBabyDramas], there’s no way Euron’s going to let Jaime’s incest bastard live.)

      By the way, I did not include Theon or Bran on my original lists, but I guess they qualify. The problem I have with Jaime is that the Valonqar is supposed to wrap his hands (plural) around Cersei’s pale, white throat. Jaime only has one hand. A prosthesis is not a hand, and I don’t think his golden hand is flexible enough to wrap around a shovel handle, a Scorpion wheel, or a wine glass – let alone a throat.

      Here’s the list of candidates. Jon Snow was a long shot a few months ago, badly trailing the field. He’s been making a furious finishing kick and is gaining on the front-runners as they round the clubhouse turn heading for the finish line. He may very well be neck and neck with the Lannister boys when the next updated Vegas Odds are released on April 1. [Enough horse racing metaphors.]

      Jaime
      Tyrion
      Jon
      Sandor
      Bran
      Euron
      Theon

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    49. Ten Bears,

      That’s on the assumption that her death will literally be by strangulation. It may also be a metaphor for simply killing her. Remember that Myrcella never wore a golden crown, nor did any of their children actually wear a golden shroud.. so we shouldn’t necessarily expect someone to actually throttle her.

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    50. Has anyone seen the photos of the corpse props? Sooo many Valemen, Northmen, ironborn, Unsullied corpses along with Dothraki horses and wights. Pretty gruesome, although what’s notable is that there’s no blood on the corpses whatsoever. Or evidence of burning for that matter (although hard to tell with the decomposed wights).

      So I’m wondering if the NK/WWs will use their silent icy mist killing technique again, or if the props dept will just spray some blood on them later.

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    51. kevin1989,

      Look ..Danny is a grey character..but more a bright grey character than a darker…Other characters like Cercei,Sansa[its clearly obvious that she has taken a more darker and controversial path after she take it Winterfell in S6 and started to grow in power in S7..that is noticed with her brutal ,bloody and disturbing methods of executions who doesnt agree and disrespect the Stark tradition that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword] ,Euron are more shady and darker grey characters ..Danny at least is honest for what she wants to do..and i appreciate that..while Sansa or Cercei never have been honest and they hide their true and dark intentions behind masks[especially Sansa who uses her rape melodrama story for advantage to grow in power and to make Jon her puppet]….And i didnt said that Danny is the only hero there..She and Jon are both Azor Ahai because the prophesy fits both to them..Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa are Valyrian words /names with genderless meaning ..Azor Ahai could be two persons one male and one female..Nissa Nissa too..You should not to take literally that prophesy/…otherwise will disappointed in the end..Mellisandre cannot be trusted ..she destroyed an entire House making Stannis believing that he is AA and make it him to kill his daughter and his wife and to loose his army and his life for that..Jon should not fall into the same trap that she is building for him too..She and her lord are evil and cannot be trusted…Davos is right about her..If she[and you] believes that Jon will sacrifice his pregnant wife and to push him to do that ..she has not pay attention..Jon might to be angry with that and will kill her for the Lightbringer instead of Danny ..that will be an ironic ending for her ..proving that your zealot faith can make you get killed .. Also she didnt brought them together..It was actually Tyrion and Sam that convinced Jon to travel in Dragonstone and to bend the knee to Danny and Davos and Missandei that make Jon to interested personally in Danny and Danny to Jon..As for Dannys pregnancy [you really hate the idea of a Jon/Danny baby… right? clearly it bothers you because you blindly hate her… and im happy with that it bothers you ]its prophesied to happen seasons ago now …in S1 when Mirri told to her that she will bear a living child , in S2 in the HOU visions when Danny sees her stillborn baby alive [she/we never saw his dead body and thats a major hint that she will give birth to a living baby this time] and in S6 when she states to Khal Moro that she never will bear children for him or anyone else..In S7 is stated 7 times that ..and the number 7 in GOT is a magical number with magical power[7 Kingdoms,7 Old Gods,7 New gods,7 pointed star,7 royal counsel members and etc]..Danny has already stay pregnant from S7E7 because Viserions ,her dragons ‘child” death paid for the life of a human child this time..and in S8 another one character or dragon will die for that child to be born alive..Mellisandre or Drogon as sacrifice .You cannot ignore that magic can do impossible things[bad and good] in GOT

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    52. Firannion,

      “Crafting a wight with a smashed head who is still recognizably Tommen would be quite a challenge for the prosthetic makeup crew!”
      ________________
      On a somewhat unrelated note, you got me thinking: Would wightening Robyn Arryn improve his personality?

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    53. Apollo,

      Yes, I have seen them and my first reaction was BotB and Loot Train attack. Personally I think they are dummies from those episodes but I am sure the clever mods on this site will enlighten us.

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    54. Carole H,

      Some of the props certainly are from last season, and also from earlier filming at Moneyglass. These latest shots are definitely from Magheramorne though, judging by the background/surrounding scenery.

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    55. Carole H,

      Pretty much all of them could be attributed to previous seasons/episodes, so that’s probably why they haven’t been posted here. There’s nothing that can be garnered conclusively from them.

      It is kinda funny seeing people on certain other sites getting all giddy about having seen these supposedly exclusive leaks, when all they have is pictures of an assortment of abandoned props (many with peeling paint and moss growing on them) that don’t conclusively reveal a thing.

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    56. Firannion,

      While I love the image of an undead headless Tommen rising out of a crypt to strangle Cersei, she instructed Qyburn to burn him and scatter his ashes on the site of the destroyed sept where his brother and sister had been laid to rest. So no undead Tommen.

      I like how big a mystery the valonqar prophesy is – with a number of likely candidates being possible.

      I have a feeling though, as they didn’t use this prophesy in the show (I may be misremembering and I don’t recall it coming up), it won’t be relevant to our story in the show (whereas it will in the books). As long as Cersei dies and her endgame is similar to books, then I don’t think it’ll matter.

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    57. Tinfoil time: I keep thinking that the pale white throat part of the valonqar prophesy is relevant and that they indicate Cersei will be very cold at the time of her death (pale white like when the blood leaves your upper epidermis to preserve heat and pale white to symbolise snow) and that this implies she will be strangled by the night king. Perhaps he is the little brother to R’hollr (spelling! Eek, hAve no idea how to spell it) – one symbolises Ice, the other fire (the song if ice and fire is both the story of Jon and Dany as well as the story behind the two largest supernatural forces in the story – perhaps they are god-like or supernatural forces brothers… I know this doesn’t fit with the way the NK was created, but perhaps the fire-god was another of the children’s creations that they made to battle humans or the out of control white walkers… though this would make the NK the older brother… or perhaps shoving the obsidian into the pre-NK-man simply harnessed the power of the NK and the children didn’t create the supernatural power, but merely bestowed an existing “godlike” power onto a man”… I don’t know, my tinfoil is coming apart a little bit 😂

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    58. Sometimes I get the feeling that part of the Fandom is expecting this season to be full battle after battle. But the truth is that even in the chapters of heavy battles of past seasons the fighting screen time barely reaches a third of the chapter.

      I think that there are gonna be big battles. But the main point of the season is gonna be as always people struggling with themselves and amongsthemselves. What would Cersei do to keep the IT? What will happen with Jon claim surpassing Dany? Is gonna King’s Landing blow up? (biggest Chekhov Gun) Will Varys decide that Dany is no longer the better rule to serve the realm? What’s gonna happen after all this fighting?

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    59. Ten Bears,

      Nice catch with the Euron is the Volanqar theory. But still I hope it’s Jaime because of dramatic effect. Begin of the series he’s the one that would kill everybody for his sister, but in the end he will kill her.

      Another theory I have is the volanqar is not her volanqar but the volanqar of her children. What if the baby dies in the belly and the nightking uses his magic which result in her baby killing her from the inside out.

      Artemisia,
      For me Dany is a much darker person than Sansa. I don’t think Sansa would ever use a horrible method like burning a person alive. She also wouldn’t let a dragon eat a person alive, and if she ever does that she wouldn’t feel just by killing a person that way, like dany feels, the only reason Dany is not evil (like Tyrion explained to Cercei) is one thing: She surround herself with people that control her dark side, but what if those people would left the equation?

      And Sansa wants power? where? In the beginning of the show yes, now it’s only a duty to her. And those hard measures that you talk about wasn’t Sansa’s methods. Those methods were Arya’s. Sansa clearly stated to Arya that you just can’t kill a man whenever you disagree with them. (I think Arya would respect Dany alot, because that’s exacly how Dany reacts, don’t share your opinion, Drogon feeding time).
      And how can you say that she uses her rape as an excuse to gain power, very disturbing that you even dare to say something like that. The only person in the show that uses the excuse of being rape that she deserves power is Dany, and even that wasn’t really about gaining power. Rape is horrible thing that nobody uses as an excuse to hurt somebody else.

      About Mel not being trusted, personally I think she has good intentions, but I wouldn’t listen to her. Like you said there’s something off about her lord. (My theory is that it’s Bran or the Night King himself)

      About Jon and Dany: I never said I didn’t think she’s pregnant. I only said there’s no proof yet. And if she’s pregnant, I think Jon wouldn’t hurt her (except if it means saving humanity, I think he will live with the burden). And if it will be a happy ending with Dany and Jon and their family so be it, as long as they portrait it right I will be happy. But whenever I or somebody stated that maybe the story will move to another direction (which for GoT is more likely), Dany fans seem to lose all of their objectivity and keep on defending her even her horrible acts. Yes she’s a better person than Cercei, yes she has good intentions. But she also feel (like Stannis) like the throne is hers by all means. So don’t get me wrong, maybe your right, maybe i’m right, we will see next year. But I don’t think it will be a happy ending. Like the actor of Drogo (Who only is concerned about Dany’s story) said that there will be a moment that will fuck up people more than the red wedding. For me it’s clear what that means.

      Eonwe,
      Same here, D&D are directing the last episode, and I don’t think they will direct a heavy battle episode. I think we can expect. A small battle with Tyrion and Euron. At Castle black, at one of the other Castles. One big battle at Winterfell.One at Kingslanding. But the rest will be more dramatic.

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    60. Firannion:
      To me, the big question is not whether Beric survived the Wall collapse, but who will pick up the flaming sword when he falls in battle. I’m rooting for Sandor to conquer his phobia of fire.

      ———————-

      With all of these apparent upcoming scenes of battles fought while stuff is on fire and structures are engulfed in flames, there could easily be a warrior who “will draw a burning sword from the fire.”
      My money’s on the big fella with a foul mouth and a face like a half-burnt ham.

      • S2e1, Melisandre’s “Warrior of Light” Prophecy:

      “After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas, and the dead shall rise in the North.

      In the ancient books, it is written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer.”

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    61. kevin1989:

      For me Dany is a much darker person than Sansa. I don’t think Sansa would ever use a horrible method like burning a person alive. She also wouldn’t let a dragon eat a person alive, and if she ever does that she wouldn’t feel just by killing a person that way, like dany feels…

      Sansa killed Ramsay by getting his dogs to eat him alive. That’s worse than instantaneous burning to death in my view. I’m not saying she didn’t have just cause to want to exact a painful death on the man who had raped and tortured her, had taken over her home and killed her little brother, but that death was pretty brutal and a very dark act of revenge. And, she seemed to take pleasure from it (her eerie smile). We’ve never seen Dany take pleasure in killing.

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    62. Che,

      D&D consistent characterization. They have Sansa one season enjoying seeing the dogs eating Ramsay, next season they said “that Sansa was disturbed (can´t remember the exact words) when executing LF and showed remorse whereas Dany isn´t capable of showing remorse or mercy when executing men” (they meant the Tarlys). And besides Daenerys has showed (in my opinion) disturbing faces. She was mesmerized when Viserion and Rhaegal tore apart and eated that slaver in Meereen. And that face she pulled last season in the field of fire before she shouted to Drogon “Dracarys!” at the beginning of the battle,, I found it a little psichotic. Or maybe it was Emilia lack of acting skills. But she also has a tendency of pulling epic speeches of mass murder from time to time (Dothraki speech) and then she changes the tone and speaks of social justice.

      But well, it isn´t only Sansa or Daenerys who get changes in their personalities when the plot requires it. Bran went from a young man who showed plenty of emotion in season 6 to that zombie with monotone voice in season 7. Baelish mutated in season 4 from master schemer to someone who was catched with his pants down again and again and survived thougth sheer dumb luck. Sansa lied on her own volition (another Sansa 180ª turnaround) to save him from murdering Lysa (unlike the books where he coerces and manipulates her), selling Sansa to the Boltons to gain NOTHING? And let´s not forget the wonderfull Winterfell plot and his Metal Gear Solid moment (when he hides in the corner).

      Speaking of the Winterfell plot. Nice way of turning Arya the ninja master assassin into someone who doesn´t notice the guy who is hiding in the corner. Or how she turned as the season went into a phsycopath.

      And then there´s dear Jaime. Who has been since season 4 “now I´m done with Cersei, now I´m in Cersei´s side!” (unlike the books where Jaime says “fuck Cersei!” and he parts ways).

      Then there´s also dear Cersei, who went from the one who fucked up with the faith militant to become the smartest person south of the neck (along the ride Tyrion went from the smartest to the dumb one).

      Hell, maybe in the incoming season we may see a smart Jon Snow who knows everything.

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    63. Ëonwë,

      Maybe Dany and Sansa had their time of the month? (don’t be mad woman. Just a joke)

      But luckily I’m not the only one. But why I somehow defend Sansa is because of couple of reasons. Where Dany was raped by drogo it changed very soon. Even in the books he never raped her. Sansa in the show wasnt just raped. She was beaten etc. Make me think of lumen from Dexter. I understand her smile and the way she murdered ramsay. But when it comes to other things she’s very objective. She doesn’t kill somebody who disagree with her, she even spoke against Arya who wanted to murder some families in season 7. She even admit she made mistakes. Apologized to Jon etc. Dany would never apologize. She would never admit she isn’t pure good. She doesn’t see her bad side.

      About bran. He lost his emotion because now he’s something like Google, he had to much information wired in his brain. I predict the moment they defeat the nk he will return to his old self.

      About season 5 Sansa. What i personally hate there is that season 4 ended with her being somebody who is one of the best players out there and they let her fall back by letting her being the victim. It feels off.

      About Arya season 7. I was under the impression that she knew about lf staring at her. And that she used that to manipulate Sansa which result in his death. Or maybe they conspired together. It’s a shame it wasn’t explained better.

      About Jaime. Same here. I like book Jaime better. Such a shame because ncw is amazing. And it’s a shame how they changed cercei, if I remember correctly in the books the only reason she get captured wasnt because she was stupid but because Margery and Olena were smarter. It looks like season 5 Is the flaw in many storyline.

      But something I noticed is that D&D has a certain way of writing. For them the only thing matter is. How can we make this season the best it could? And how does every character change this season and where do they start?
      They are more concerned with the season happening than letting the story flow like grrm does. That’s why they let Sansa have the ramsay storyline. They only concerned about season 5 not the season before or after.

      Jon snow, you know everything now.
      Jon: so I’m the three eyed raven now, bran?

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    64. kevin1989,

      Ëonwë,

      Speaking of the Winterfell plot. Nice way of turning Arya the ninja master assassin into someone who doesn´t notice the guy who is hiding in the corner. Or how she turned as the season went into a phsycopath.

      From the moment Arya approached Brienne with a different walk, outfit, voice, and music, it was clear she was No One. She even mentioned No One and soon her HoB&W music played as she gave LF the Death Glare. Everything she did and said from that time till her scene with Sansa after the trial was No One first testing Sansa (she passed) and then investigating Littlefinger before goading him into an eventual act of aggression that would invalidate his Guest Right. That included making an uncharacteristic and outrageous comment to Sansa, and wearing NO Face while spying so LF would know her death glare was sincere. BTW, whether or not she guessed Robb’s letter was LF’s plant, she used it for the last step of her plan, luring Sansa to her room so she could tell her about the FM, show her the lie-detection game, and pass the baton (LF’s dagger) so Sansa would be ‘armed’ to see through his lies.

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    65. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Not complete. About half of my post was things that can be seen or heard. The rest was my theory, not fiction. But it is a unified theory that does account for much of what went down in Winterfell. The longer version would explain much more, but we’ll never know, so why write something lengthy?

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    66. Luka Nieto: Are the poor White Walkers constantly towing a smoke machine just to appear more scary?

      I’ve been laughing at that for the last five minutes. Might explain why they just happened to have a load of big ass chains with them that were so handy for removing a huge dead dragon from a frozen lake.

      We don’t know what the WWs are after but now my tin foil hat is on and I think you have set me on a chain of thought to cracking it, Luka – they are rogue landlords clearing out Westeros for redevelopment. As they move south they come across more people with possessions and livestock that need shifting, buildings which are subject to planning permission, and other things getting in the way of them making a, er, killing on the property market. Turning the humans into obedient zombies means they help with the heavy lifting, don’t object to being forcefully evicted, losing all their worldy goods etc. Keep the useful stuff and kill/destroy the rest. Whoops, seem to have demolished that castle, oh well we’ll just have to build something more profitable in its place.

      I live in London where the average house now costs roughly 15 times average pay, ie unaffordable for most people, and it all makes sense now. We’ve seen time and again how GoT is a story of the lust for wealth, love, power etc making people suffer. Whether through losing their home, being killed horribly on the whims of a crazy person *insert your fave villains here*, forced to fight endless wars or just having a really bad day in general. The WW’s purpose is the final piece of the jigsaw. The magical bits are just either tricks to make certain sections of society seem more powerful/scary – hence them needing smoke machines – or red herrings. For the Night King and friends it’s all about the money, money, money as someone or other sang. Oh and there’s an estate agents in the UK called Knight Frank, coincidence? I think not. The Night King’s name is Frank, you read it here first! 😀

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    67. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Not really. To paraphrase the Chekhov’s Gun theory: You don’t bring a successful Faceless Man home, have her find it’s under the thumb of the family enemy, and have her do nothing. Dramatic necessity says that gun will be fired. Arya wouldn’t take up knitting or chat with Bran about old times. I also doubt she’d be able to convince Sansa, who is very much under Littlefinger’s influence and spends her time with him, that she needs to get rid of him based on the assessment of her ‘baby’ sister. So temporarily becoming No One and acting in the capacity of a FM is a 100% logical thing for Arya to do, minus the killing of course. You may not believe me, but since 7.07 aired, my theory has evolved as new hints/evidence/clues or ideas presented themselves or others were invalidated. Once Isaac gave his famous interview about the deleted Bran-Sansa scene, I had to completely drop my original idea that Arya and Sansa were colluding because that no longer conformed to fact. In the end, Arya did something of enough significance that even Lady Sansa, sister of King Jon Snow, called her “the strongest person I know.” That is no fantasy.

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    68. Stark Raven' Rad,

      I’m with You.
      My first thought while these Arya-LF-spying-scences was “”that is not you”.
      Not you, Arya. That’s no one.
      And either Arya or no one would act that dumb – if it wasn’t a trick.
      LF is unbelievable vain and sure that nobody is as clever and smart as he is, especially a little wild wolfgirl, little sister to manipulable Sansa.
      It was easy for her.

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    69. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      My Good Man:

      I read the long-form version of Stark Raven’ Rad’s unified theory about a week or two ago, and was quite impressed. As I laid out on a reply, whether the Arya/No One duality was deliberately intended by the showrunners or not, it would also explain (for me) other scenes – aside from the wonky S7 WF plot line – that made no sense or left me thinking “WTF?”.

      I think I gave as examples:
      • Arya’s concluding Braavos scene when she went back to the House of B&W to post the Waif’s face on the display rack and confront Jaqen 2.0 [paraphrasing]:
      Arya: “You told her to kill me.”
      J2.0: “Yes. But here you are, and there she is. Finally, a Girl is No One.”
      Arya: “A Girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I’m going home.”

      • Arya’s initially rude behavior and weird eating habits in her scene with Hot Pie in S7e2.

      Like the S7e5-e6 LF-Sansa-Arya detour, SRR’s template sought to provide coherence to what I perceived as a bizarro alternate universe PsychoArya and dumbed-down frantic Sansa. (As if the real Arya would ever dishonor her father by approaching Sansa at knifepoint and musing about cutting off her face and wearing her clothes…)

      • The only other alternative is to chalk up that WF story line as a complete clusterf*ck in every respect: Cheap soap operish “drama” like eavesdropping, eavesdropping on the eavesdropper, sneaking into someone else’s room and rummaging through someone’s diary/suitcase/purse – and getting caught in the act; failing to ask or answer the direct question that could instantly clear up mistaken assumptions and pinpoint the villain; and worst of all, manipulating the viewer for the sake of one single “gotcha!” moment in the finale instead of allowing the audience to “participate” in the sisters’ reconciliation. Not to mention turning supposed mastermind LF into a f*cking moron who incriminates himself for no reason, and implicated himself when facing accusations he should easily talk his way out of.
      Maybe the WF “plot” was just one of those perfect storms of uninspired plotting, careless story editing, inattention to logic, unfortunate directorial choices, and character butchering.

      I’d prefer to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt and try to come up with cogent explanations for apparent misfires, before resigning myself to the conclusion “well, that made no f*cking sense” or “that was pure suckage.”

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    70. cos alpha,

      Far be it for me to second-guess choices of professional screenwriters and producers. However, from my perspective, the decision to keep the audience in the dark drained the enjoyment out of the sisters’ reunion and reconciliation. For instance:

      • In S7e4, in the crypts, the sisters said:

      Sansa: How did you get back to Winterfell?
      Arya: It’s a long story. I imagine yours is, too.
      Sansa: Yes. Not a very pleasant one.
      Arya: Mine neither.

      I figured at some point they’d share their stories and commiserate with each other. That’s what sisters would do. That never happened.

      • In S7e5, I think, they had the following exchange (paraphrasing):

      Sansa: You never would’ve survived what I survived.
      Arya: I guess we’ll never know.

      By the end of e7, in that lovely scene on the battlements, that turned around to:

      Arya: I never would’ve survived what you survived.
      Sansa: You would have. You’re the strongest person I know.
      Arya: I believe that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me.
      Sansa: Well, don’t get used to it. You’re still very strange and annoying.

      [I liked that endearing little dig at the end by Sansa; it added a little zing to the complement]
      Anyway, I wanted to see and hear how they each changed their tune. We got nothing. If just seemed to me liked a missed opportunity.

      • They hadn’t seen each other in roughly six years. At different times, their paths crossed with the same characters, eg Sandor and Meryn F*cking Trant. A brief scene comparing experiences would’ve been priceless. Again, nothing.

      • Speaking for myself, it would’ve been so much more rewarding to see the sisters discover LF’s duplicity, and then work together to ensnare him. I didn’t need that trial-by-ambush of LF “surprise.”

      • The “charges” against LF were ridiculous. The first? Pushing Lysa through the Moon Door. “Do you deny it?” Answer: “You denied it. You told the Vale Lords she committed suicide. Don’t look at me.”

      • They had him nailed cold on treason for deceiving Catelyn with the bogus hostage exchange deception. With Brienne at WF they could’ve pieced together an airtight case – without relying on 3-Eyed Raven BranVision2000™. I was 95% sure that’s how they’d take him down. It never came up.
      Nor did we see how the siblings realized LF was playing games. Though I still don’t know what he expected to accomplish by “turning sister against sister.” Maybe he was just bored? Finally, if that dagger was in any way incriminating. why bring it to WF and give it as a gift to Bran? Toss in a river or pawn it like any halfway competent criminal would. Don’t flash it around and lie about it.

      • To be cont. (With a reveal I was really looking forward to and sure we’d see – but didn’t. I think I typed it out somewhere. I’ll try to find it…)

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    71. Ten Bears,

      I think a great way of showing the sisters’ reconciliation would have been to have Arya bring up Nymeria in a conversation with Sansa. She could have mentioned that she met up with her dire wolf on her way back to Winterfell and how it reminded her of what happened to Lady at the Kingsroad and how bad she feels/felt about that whole thing. In she show, we do have Arya expressing guilt over Mycah to Ned, but in the books she also harbours guilt over what happened to Lady. Sansa could have responded with how naive she was not see what a monster Joffrey was.

      There was enough unresolved issues there that it wouldn’t have felt too rehashed or redundant. We really could have used at least one scene to show us how they went about reconciling their differences and coming together. But alas..

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    72. Of course one could elaborate always better – if I only had time, only time.
      But they had to get rid of LF to go on with main problems to solve.
      What sisters may talk about in dark long nights – do You really want to listen to?! Whispering, confessing, sobbing – no, thanks.

      And LF, the dagger and so on: chaos is a ladder, let’s see, what happens. LF is a gamer.

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    73. Stark Raven' Rad: Not really.

      Yes, really.

      Just to poke a couple of holes in your theory, for example, your suggestion that she deliberately goaded Littlefinger into “an eventual act of aggression that would invalidate his Guest Right” is irrelevant since Littlefinger was lawfully tried and executed for crimes he committed.

      The plot’s conclusion didn’t require him to be tricked into violating guest right, which I don’t think he even did, in some convoluted and indiscernible fashion.

      And your suggestion that she planned and anticipated all of Sansa’s and Littlefinger’s behaviour and reactions, such as manipulating Sansa into searching her room so that she could tell her about the Faceless Men and “test” her, is so far-fetched and fanciful that it reeks of a desperation to validate the behaviour of a favoured character.

      I wouldn’t deny that Arya used some of the things she learnt at the House of Black and White during the plot. That’s obvious. But that’s not to say that she was manipulating the whole situation and in control the entire time.

      Also, if we’re talking about interviews with the cast, here’s what Maisie said about Arya’s behaviour:

      Arya is struggling to accept the fact that it’s been hard for everyone. I think Sansa, too. They’ve all been through so much. It’s difficult to have sympathy for any other character coming out of what they’ve just lived. Arya is very hot-headed; she’s always been. I’ve always been grateful that it’s been at the right people, and now it’s at the wrong person, but she’s still the same character with that flaw. She struggles to keep her mouth shut. She doesn’t know what Sansa has been through, and she won’t hear it. She’s kind of turned into a little bit of a monster, and it’s directed at the wrong person, but she doesn’t know that.

      No mention of her being No One or masterfully manipulating the whole situation. Just an acknowledgement that Arya’s behaviour is questionable and misdirected.

      I’m sorry to do this, but it’s frustrating to read people bending over backwards in order to eradicate any possibility of their favourite characters being fallible.

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    74. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      “Littlefinger was lawfully tried and executed for crimes he committed.”
      • Really? On the word of a hallucinating boy who thinks he’s a bird. Though the S7 lobotomized version of LF squandered the opportunity to defend himself by trying to “command” Lord Royce to escort him safely to the Vale. Right. After LF’s false accusations against Royce almost got him booted out the Moon Door, Royce is really going to help him. “I think not.”
      You know what? Forget it. The whole “trial” and its setup was a mess.

      • I will say this. For Little Miss Lie Detector to get fooled by LF thanking Wolkan on Lady Sansa’s behalf for retrieving the letter was inexplicable. Just like the cheap plot device of Sansa asking where Arya got the letter but never pressing for an answer (which would’ve exposed LF and out the “plot” out of its misery.)

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    75. cos alpha,

      “What sisters may talk about in dark long nights – do You really want to listen to?! Whispering, confessing, sobbing – no, thanks.”
      —————-
      Actually, yes I would. Arya’s quiet scenes with Yoren and Sandor (in S4e7) were so much better than anything in the Arya vs. Sansa manufactured conflict. I enjoyed Sansa & Arya’s final scene in S7e7; I am sure I would’ve enjoyed watching how they reached that point of mutual acceptance.

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    76. Ten Bears:
      cos alpha,

      “What sisters may talk about in dark long nights – do You really want to listen to?! Whispering, confessing, sobbing – no, thanks.”
      —————-Actually, yes I would. Arya’s quiet scenes with Yoren and Sandor (in S4e7) were so much better than anything in the Arya vs. Sansa manufactured conflict. I enjoyed Sansa & Arya’s final scene in S7e7; I am sure I would’ve enjoyed watching how they reached that point of mutual acceptance.

      Same here. “Girl talk” is true talk about things that matter. I’d very much have liked to see a sisterly heart-to-heart, rather than just the awkward (and misdirecting) sparring that was mainly presented.

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    77. The more times I’ve watched Arya’s S7 scenes and the more I’ve thought about them the more I think they totally screwed up in writing her season. As my favorite character I admit that I’m more apt to not like what they did, but don’t most think it was pretty messy? I’ll try to ignore that overall I didn’t like that they shoehorned her into the Sansa/LF story, because that was my biggest disappointment…

      The main problem I have is the continuous flip-flopping of her personality. Some may say that she was going back and forth from Arya to No One. Maybe that’s what they were attempting to convey but it didn’t work very well for me. Also, why would she suddenly be so messed up in that manner when up to killing Walder she was not. She’d killed before so getting all weird after that didn’t make sense.

      Her season opening scene with the Frey men was good.
      She then meets and converses with the Lannister soldiers where she’s generally her normal self. She’s wary but friendly with them and ‘jokingly’ tells them she’s going to kill the queen.
      The very next time we see her she runs into Hot Pie and suddenly she’s emotionless to see an old friend and hardly talks to him.
      Nymeria scene – normal Arya.
      Arriving to Winterfell, crypts, godswood, sparring – normal Arya.
      Then they quickly flip her to whacka-doo Arya the rest of the time that in my opinion was completely jagged and forced just to get them to the ‘twist’ LF execution. *
      Final scene with Sansa – normal Arya again.

      * I still think they came up with the LF execution idea first and then tried to jam the pieces in just to get to it. It just ended up messy. Maybe they did cut a scene or two that would have helped but would have also eliminated the (not so) ‘twist.’ Maybe they wouldn’t have helped.

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    78. Clob,

      Bingo. I’ve felt this way since season 7 aired. They just really flip-flopped all over the place on Arya based on whatever D&D wanted to play out on screen at the moment and it was annoying as hell. If as many fans were confused by the WF plotline as it seems then that’s really all you need to know that it was done poorly.

      The suspense really should’ve been about who’s going to outmaneuver the other, but instead I was just left wondering which Arya was going to conveniently or inconveniently show up based on whatever the plot needed to seem edgy. Nothing felt logical. It all felt forced.

      Like you said, Arya’s very genuine and kind to the Lannister soldiers in one episode, but then she’s an asshole to Hot Pie in the next. It was just…strange.

      She goes back and forth between Arya and no one. Yes, I would expect her FM skills to come out when necessary at this point, but I also thought we spent the last 2 seasons watching Arya come to the realization that she doesn’t want to be no one. She wants to be Arya Stark, so the terminator attitude should be gone. Yet, it continues to show up whenever D&D wants it to for the sake of drama. Pretty cheap drama if you ask me in this case.

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    79. Clob,

      Since the Wight Hunt came because they first have in the script Viserion melting the Wall and they wrote it backwards… Yeah it´s pretty posible that they had first LF execution and them wrote the Starkbowl plot to reach that point.

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    80. Ten Bears,

      Well, you know my feelings on the Winterfell plot and what a disservice it was to both Arya and Sansa, let alone Littlefinger.

      It’s no coincidence that a theory suggested by an ardent Arya fan would happen to result in Arya emerging from the plot smelling completely of roses, while everybody else remains as naive and incompetent as initially appeared.

      As you point out, the plot was littered with inexplicable behaviour and plot devices that undermined the viewers’ impressions of the characters as established so far in the show.

      But the mooted theory succeeds in elevating Arya alone above the apparent dodgy writing/plotting, to the point where the plot would serve at a practically indiscernible level as a demonstration of Arya’s infallible genius.

      As far as Littlefinger’s trial goes, I found it a cop-out. But regardless of how badly it was written, it served its purpose. He inexplicably confessed to Lysa’s murder. He crumbled under the pressure and begged for mercy from Royce and Sansa which was practically an admission of guilt. And, most importantly, those tasked with judging his guilt were certain of it along with us viewers.

      There was no need for Arya to legitimise the trial or execution by provoking some obscure violation of guest right, as the theory suggests.

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    81. Clob,

      “I still think they came up with the LF execution idea first and then tried to jam the pieces in just to get to it. It just ended up messy…”

      —————–
      That would explain it. First of all, to predicate that whole “plot” on the retrieved letter had me scratching my head. It was old news. And like POW propaganda videos, everyone knows the hostage or captive is under duress, reading from a script. Nobody would hold that letter against a pre-teen girl.
      Sansa had no trouble being respected by the Northern lords, even after marriages to enemies. In S6, Lyanna Mormont snarked: “Lady Sansa is a Bolton. Or is she a Lannister? I’ve heard conflicting reports.” Yet, Lyanna didn’t question Sansa’s status after the Starks retook WF or when Jon left Sansa in charge.
      So that letter wasn’t some kind of smoking gun that would destroy Sansa – or give her any reason to go running to LF to confide in him.
      LF’s dumb “plan” depended on a ridiculous assumption: that Arya wouldn’t tell Sansa where she got it. That’s the first thing Arya would have done when leveling accusations: tell Sansa that she saw LF get the letter from Wolkan on her behalf. Both sisters would know right then and there he was up to no good. So the perpetuation of the “plot” required unnatural nondisclosures and evasions in response to simple questions.

      Finally, if that stupid letter was anything to worry about, Sansa would’ve retrieved it and burned it immediately upon retaking WF in S6, before Ramsay’s dogs had even finished digesting him.

      I’m still peeved because with a little ingenuity, they could’ve had the sisters piece together actual evidence that would’ve nailed LF for treason without relying on Bran’s visions, and without LF admitting crimes for which he’d already been exonerated based on Sansa’s own words (eg murdering Lysa).

      (A friend and I “reimagined” that trial scene to convict LF without relying on visions or confessions. I’ll have to see if I have it somewhere. LF still gets sliced up by Arya at the end – but in a trial by combat, after none of the Vale knights accepts the “honor” of being his champion.)

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    82. This is a minor spoiler but apparently the characters on set (not an exclusive list necessarily) were

      Melisandre, Jamie and Brienne and this is episode 4 most likely

      I’m trying to avoid plot spoilers but believe the person who told me the above when they explained how they knew.

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