Smalljon Umber cast!

Dean S JaggerThere’s not much time left in season 6 filming, but thankfully, there is still Game of Thrones casting news to be had.

Our casting news involves another major house of the North that we haven’t seen in a few years- the Umbers. In season 1, Greatjon Umber (Clive Mantle) was a boisterous and (eventually) vocal supporter of the King in the North. The Greatjon wasn’t present on the show in later seasons, leaving him presumably alive, and his son Smalljon no longer a victim of the Red Wedding like in the books.  At the end of season 3, Bran Stark sends Osha and his little brother Rickon off to the Umbers at Last Hearth.

With the season 6 casting announcements, we learned that House Umber would be coming back into play, with Smalljon as its representative.

Which bring us to today’s news: we’ve learned that British actor Dean S. Jagger will be playing the role of Smalljon Umber.

It was a roundabout route, learning about this one. Over a month ago, a fan shared photos from the post-Saintfield-filming wrap party. Among the pics was one of her posing with Kristofer Hivju and another actor, captioned, “Met Small jon umber and thormond at a #gameofthrones #party in belfast! #GoT #asoiaf #asongoficeandfire #actors #gameofthrones”

 

Then today, WotW reader breakfastfestival recognized the actor in an episode of the British comedy Trollied, and found this new item from Identity School of Acting:

Identity

Great work, breakfastfestival!

While the casting isn’t officially confirmed by HBO, we think it’s pretty safe to call this one: this is our Smalljon.

160 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Good eye by breakfastfestival(which sounds yummy right now)! And a series regular?! Sounds great! And he’s cute too! Happy Thanksgiving to everyone! And I guess-Hodor!!

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    2. Sean C.,

      “Regular” used by these people is not in the strict way that we tend to use it. It just means he’s on more than one episode, which we already knew.

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    3. Sean C.,

      Well, there’s Karstark, Manderly and that callow Northern nobleman who may be a Cerwyn. Has any other Northern Lord been cast? There’s that “wry, articulate Lord”, but we don’t know if he’s a Northman.

      Sean C.,

      Regular = recurring.

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    4. Luka Nieto,

      There’s the guy WOTW sensibly guessed was Cerwyn, who is probably in the same scene(s) as Manderly.

      Edit: Regarding the other lord, since all the other casting notices have specified Northernness, he presumably isn’t from there. Which leaves what story he’s part of an interesting question. At the time some thought about Harlaw, but he would surely have been at the Kingsmoot had he been cast.

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    5. Sean C.,

      Yeah, I remembered him soon after writing that, so I edited him in. So Karstark, Manderly and the possible Cerwyn. And, as I also added later, maybe that other “wry, articulate” Lord, though we don’t know if he’s a Northman.

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    6. Hodors Bastard,

      Of course his intentions would be honourable, the Umbers have always been loyal to the Starks and now that Rickon is the next in line to inherit Winterfell his word is law to them.

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    7. Shallow as it is, my first reaction is that he looks like he could be James Cosmo’s son. Strikingly so, to be honest. Maybe they should have cast him as Jorah, particularly given that Iain Glen is only 13 years younger than the guy who played his father (oh, well; too late now).

      I’m sure he’ll be fine in this part (in Nina I trust), although he’s apparently only 5’11”. Even Smalljon Umber is supposed to be a pretty freaking huge guy. Look at me going all Linda now…

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    8. I hope hey give him Hugo Wull’s epic speech!

      Lord Pea Pod. If you were a man, I would kill you for that, but my sword is made of too fine a steel to besmirch with craven’s blood. Aye, men are dying. More will die before we see Winterfell. What of it? This is war. Men die in war. That is as it should be. As it has always been. I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

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    9. MuhiyaDON: Of course his intentions would be honorable,

      Regarding only Rickon (during peaceful times), I would agree…but given Osha in the mix and the fallout from the RW unknown (incl. Greatjon’s fate and the fact that SmallJon is dead in the books because of Robb/RW), I will only be cautiously optimistic.

      Turncloak,
      Excellent! I hope so.

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    10. But if the rumors are true… How could House Umber be on the side of

      House Bolton in the Battle of the Bastards? The only way that I could imagine it was if Greatjon was still a prisoner of the Freys, they would side with the Boltons to see him released. How will the show make this work? Why will they turn over Osha and Rickon to the Boltons?

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    11. I really hate that if you get on D&D’s bad side, you get fired, as was Clive Mantle’s case. And his character was someone that couldn’t really be played by anyone else. So they’re just replacing him with his inferior son.

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    12. bufkus:
      I really hate that if you get on D&D’s bad side, you get fired, as was Clive Mantle’s case. And his character was someone that couldn’t really be played by anyone else. So they’re just replacing him with his inferior son.

      All I’ve heard was schedualing problems for further seasons (2/3)..

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    13. Turncloak,

      That’s what I always tought will happen, since it was confirmed he was Umber.

      Of course a bit edited and shorter, some changes here and there,..etc.

      But the same context: a direct attack too persue vangeance/justice instead of a more petient approach.

      My guess is he will say this to either another northern lord, who doesn’t want direct battle or Jon.

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    14. I’m glad that we finally know who’s playing the Smalljon! He certainly looks the part – that’s the face of someone I’d much rather see as a Stark ally rather than an enemy, as those persistent rumors have unfortunately suggested. But whatever his role, I’m sure that Mr. Jagger will play it well.

      Hopefully we’ll get casting confirmations for the remaining Northern Lords and other outstanding roles as filming draws to a close and the various agencies start updating their clients’ CVs. Strange as it seems, we’re only a few weeks away from the annual dark period between the wrapping of principal photography and the debut of the first trailer. The beast must be fed. 🙂

      Turncloak,

      I freaking love that speech. It would be great if one of the loyal Northern Lords got to deliver a slightly abridged version of it this season.

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    15. Jared: I freaking love that speech. It would be great if one of the loyal Northern Lords got to deliver a slightly abridged version of it this season.

      I would think that it would have to be very abridged. Even the main characters don’t get lines anywhere near that long.

      I’m not sure that this leaves me any the wiser about anything. I am curious to see what the impetus for getting so many Northerners to SnowBowl will be, but this doesn’t mean anything in regards to that.

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    16. ash:
      Where is that from?

      In case no one else answered you…Turncloak took that from a spirited conversation between northerners (after taking Asha prisoner) after they depart Deepwood Motte near the end of The King’s Prize chapter in ADwD. The chapter uses Asha’s PoV.

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    17. Mihnea: My guess is he will say this to either another northern lord, who doesn’t want direct battle or Jon.

      Only if Sansa is going around recruiting for Jon’s war office. This stuff has to be done in the presence of a primary character, after all: otherwise, we won’t see anything beyond intro and outro scenes.

      Indeed, in a lot of ways, Jon would be the most sensible person to give this speech. However, there is almost a hedonistic tone to it that really conflicts with Jon’s character. Maybe if you rewrote it as done by Eeyore it would work for Jon!

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    18. Wimsey: I would think that it would have to be very abridged.Even the main characters don’t get lines anywhere near that long.

      Yeah, I know. I shouldn’t have said “slightly” abridged – more like “significantly”. It’s really the last part of the speech that I would like to see adapted, starting with the idea of fighting for Ned’s little girl (Sansa, in this case) and ending with the prospect of the man bathing in Bolton blood and tasting it on his tongue before death. That’s the most emotional core of the speech, and the most relevant for the show’s purposes. The first half of the monologue, musing about what men want and being six-and-twenty again, all sounds great on the page, but it’s much more philosophical, and I agree that it’s far too much dialogue for a minor character to deliver.

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    19. Jared: It’s really the last part of the speech that I would like to see adapted, starting with the idea of fighting for Ned’s little girl (Sansa, in this case)

      That part will have to be altered: after all, Sansa’s not little and it probably also will be known that she’s not in Winterfell anymore.

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    20. Wimsey: That part will have to be altered: after all, Sansa’s not little and it probably also will be known that she’s not in Winterfell anymore.

      Sansa’s little in the eyes of men in their twenties, early thirties..

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    21. Wimsey,

      You have not explained on what planet Sansa would go off recruiting for Jon.

      He’s going to send Sansa, escapee from the Warden of the North, BACK to the Northern lords? With what guards? He can’t spare the Night’s Watch – there are only a few he can trust, and even then he can’t send them away from the Wall. What is he going to do, send Sansa off with some Wildlings to gather northern support? Yeah right. Is he going to send Sansa off with just Davos to protect her, after she had to jump off a massive wall to escape the Boltons?

      You’re so adamant on a theory that makes zero sense.

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    22. Wimsey,

      I’m not all that attached to the precise wording of the speech, just what it signifies. I truly don’t care when the show alters or omits so-called “iconic” lines from the books. That doesn’t mean I’m immune to indulging in a smile or two when something like “Egg, I dreamed that I was old”, or “Bear Island knows no King but the King in the North, whose name is Stark” makes it to the screen more-or-less intact. But I rolled my eyes at the furor that was stirred up in certain online circles over “Only Cat” becoming “Your sister” and “Edd, fetch me a block” being replaced with “Olly, bring me my sword.” Tweaking those lines didn’t strip them of their power – at least for me.
      Sansa’s pretty close to adult age in the show, so “little girl” would be more of an affectionate euphemism than anything else – many fathers will still refer to their adult daughters as their “little girl”, and the Northern Lords could adopt a similar mindset. That being said, “Ned’s daughter” could easily be substituted for “Ned’s little girl” with no issues. In fact, it’d probably be for the best.
      The Northern Lords don’t need to believe that Sansa needs to be rescued from Winterfell in order for one of them to give the speech. For the show’s purposes, I actually think it would work better if it was delivered while she was standing right there in the room with them as a de facto pledge of loyalty. Of course, we don’t have a clear picture of what Sansa will be doing for most of the season. I would love it if her season-long arc was traveling around the North rallying all of the Northern Lords in her own name, but the fact that most of them are only set to appear in 1-3 episodes makes that highly unlikely. Instead, she’ll either make it to Castle Black and spend several episodes with Jon, or she’ll link back up with Littlefinger once he comes North with the Vale’s army. We don’t know which it will be at this time.
      But once the Northern Lords do enter the picture, seeing one of them deliver a version of the speech we’re discussing – either directly to Sansa or to Jon in reference to Sansa – would be a powerful moment (ditto for an abridged version of Manderly’s “The North Remembers” speech). It’s far from essential for the show to accomplish what it needs to accomplish for it’s story, and I won’t be heartbroken if it’s not there. But it would be cool. 🙂

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    23. yeah I never could understand this assumption that Sansa would be petitioning the Northern Lords for Jon.

      My theory is that the Northern Lords will either already be conspiring together and Sansa will bring the Vale into the mix or they will combine forces on hearing what happened to her (and House Cerwyn- that has to go somewhere).

      My guess is Jon and the Wildlings could then be the deciding factor by joining the Northern Lords in battle, turning the tide in defeating the Boltons and gaining their respect and loyalty for the Great War to come.

      Nadia,

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    24. Was hoping his facial hair would rival Tormund’s beard in greatness, but I guess this will do. Just give him a nice big shaggy fur cloak and that brigandine thing the GreatJon wore.
      I wonder, is it still possible that we could see Clive Mantle on the show again? Maybe he is a prisoner with Edmure. Anyone know if he is currently filming anything?

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    25. TURNCLOAK:

      Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

      Not being a book reader, hadn’t heard of this speech before or seen mention of it from other readers. But the first thing I thought of was “Spatter? Hmmm, now where have I just seen something that looked like blood spatter? Ye gods, I hope it is as you have mentioned it, at the hand of where (I think) spatter was shown, the blood being from the evildoers mentioned. The axe bite and all.

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    26. Nadia: You have not explained on what planet Sansa would go off recruiting for Jon.

      No, I haven’t: because I really doubt that it will happen! I was merely referring to the context in which we could hear this sort of thing. In retrospect, I should have typed Sansa recruiting for herself or for Rickon: I slipped Jon in there absentmindedly. The key point is that this show, like most of it’s sort, rarely takes the camera off of major characters. We are not going to get any sort of prolonged scene between characters that are not at least of the Littlefinger/Varys ranking. And we certainly will not get one between characters that the audience does not know at all. So, it has to be done (if it is to be done) in the presence of one of the major characters.

      Nadia: You’re so adamant on a theory that makes zero sense.

      I’ve never been adamant about any conjecture that makes zero sense. Of course, I never have been a proponent of anything like this scenario, either! If anything of this sort is to happen, then it will be Sansa on her own. Although many people are convinced that she will wind up at Castle Black, I doubt that Sansa will make it there: my bet is that she will be redirected by Bran or something else. Ramsay, on the other hand, will think that she is going there: and once he figures out that she and Reek are not just hiding somewhere in Winterfell, then that is where he will go in search of her. (This parallels stuff that has been well setup in the book, too.)

      Indeed, a key thing to remember is that the protagonists have to have parallels in their storylines: if there are not any parallels, then there is not any story. So, Sansa has to be doing stuff similar to what Jon and Daeny are doing: and getting people who ordinarily would not support you to rally behind you appears to be emerging from what we’ve gleaned. Now, Sansa might be doing this at Rickon’s behest (that has been well setup by the show) or for herself: but she should be doing it for her own agenda, not for Jon’s.

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    27. Apollo:
      yeah I never could understand this assumption that Sansa would be petitioning the Northern Lords for Jon.

      My theory is that the Northern Lords will either already be conspiring together and Sansa will bring the Vale into the mix or they will combine forces on hearing what happened to her (and House Cerwyn- that has to go somewhere).

      My guess is Jon and the Wildlings could then be the deciding factor by joining the Northern Lords in battle, turning the tide in defeating the Boltons and gaining their respect and loyalty for the Great War to come.

      Nadia,

      Hearing what happened to her? She willingly brought the Boltons in the fold by actively marrying Ramsay. Do people in this society believe a man can rape his wife? Besides, did they see the footage we all did?

      Northerners could see Sansa in an unfavorable light. I’m not predicting that or anything, but I do think it could turn a few valid ways.

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    28. Finally! Now we need to know who will play Lord Karstark.

      Luka Nieto,
      The casting call describes him as “a massive bear of a man with a beard and temper to match”.

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    29. Nadia:
      Wimsey,

      You have not explained on what planet Sansa would go off recruiting for Jon.

      He’s going to send Sansa, escapee from the Warden of the North, BACK to the Northern lords? With what guards? He can’t spare the Night’s Watch – there are only a few he can trust, and even then he can’t send them away from the Wall. What is he going to do, send Sansa off with some Wildlings to gather northern support? Yeah right. Is he going to send Sansa off with just Davos to protect her, after she had to jump off a massive wall to escape the Boltons?

      You’re so adamant on a theory that makes zero sense.

      The Northern Lords is one huge question mark and I think SOME of them come to CB. Also yes Sansa will be going there ( this debate will never die until the season airs will it 🙁 ) They put Sansa finding out about CB for a reason, you say they put it there for Ramsay to think about but what’s the point if she just ends up with the Vale? Ramsay will find out about that pretty quick. The pink letter won’t mean shit now since FTW already happened so Ramsay won’t be sending it. Regardless, he would just march North and sack CB right away so that won’t happen. Sansa getting to CB is tricky but she has Bran to get her there and she knows the small folk support her family so she can just go village to village which Theon & Sansa will know about ( Theon knew about some in S2/Book 2.)

      Jon also needs someone to motivate him to move south, who the fuck can do that? Sam’s gone, Davos and Mel are failed advisers to a southern king and Tormund certainly can’t. He needs someone who’ll remind him about his past and origin, that’s going to be Sansa.

      How will Jon get his army? He needs a proper Stark with him otherwise he’s fucked. He needs a big enough army to be confident enough to march south to fight the Boltons and the Northern lords won’t go to him if hes on his own. Sansa is a legit Stark and knows about Rickon’s survival.

      You say Sansa can rally the North around her with LF and the Vale, but the vale lords have BARELY any filming and why the balls would Roose let a huge foreign army roam around the Northern strongholds? Not even a army, just a small squad of soldiers would even pick up Roose’s attention and his spies would tell him right away. Again, this brings up Jon. How will he get his army if Sansa is seizing it all up? Him using the refugees would be about as effective as Erdogan attacking ISIS with his massive refugee population, most of them are starving frightened civilians who number little when it comes to capable young fighting men. Besides where will he arm them?

      Also one big reason Sansa won’t go with LF. Theon! LF wouldn’t just let Theon go for no reason and they must break off at some safe point, that safe point being just before they reach CB.

      Also it’ll be pretty bad if she’s united with Jon in Bolton held WF, no time for proper emotions or bonding and that’s pretty vital to these scenes. Also Sansa would NEVER EVER go back to WF with LF alone! LF can’t force her either, she has dirt on him to use with the vale lords and they love her more than Littleshit, and the whole reason they are there in the first place is likely for her.

      Sansa and Jon are going to be in a tricky situation yes, but SOME of the Northern Lords must go to CB at some point, before Ramsay can reach them too. Her amazing arc will likely be helping Jon get back on his feet morally and emotionally and convincing cautious lords they come across to help fight for them, NOT dooming Jon to a pitiful army composed of little children and old men.

      But the biggest stab in the heart to this all is that the Vale is ultimately not seen at the battle, only some unreliable reddit source (he sounds like a causal fan, even if he did provide the photo he couldn’t name all the sigils properly) and with just how huge this scene is going to be we would have seen vale sigils by now, but alas. This along with the fact Kit and Sophie have been seen filming at the battle but not Aiden is pretty damning, remember we should only trust what Sue says at this point since WIC are shady and the rest are redditors. Sue has always been right AFAIK and WIC haven’t and if Sue hasn’t mentioned Aiden or the Vale once, it’s safe to assume they aren’t there. Plus the Vale’s Iron Man lord has only 2 scenes to film, both of which aren’t anywhere near the battle filming timeline. Surely he would be present?

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    30. I was trying to work this one out and spent too long scouring the web for the actor’s name. Well done WotW!
      He looks very accomplished in his showreel. I’m looking forward to seeing what they do with Smalljon, but I’d be truly glad if Greatjon returned too.

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    31. Turncloak:

      “…When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter…”

      Bronn, S5: “…All they want to do is fight and fuck, fuck and fight…”

      (adaptation) 🙂

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    32. Bearded Onion: Also yes Sansa will be going there ( this debate will never die until the season airs will it ) They put Sansa finding out about CB for a reason, you say they put it there for Ramsay to think about but what’s the point if she just ends up with the Vale?

      Those are not the only two options! I am certainly in the camp that does not expect Sansa to wind up either at Castle Black or with Vale troops. Sansa also could end up at some other Northern stronghold. (The fact that the Northern Lords are in only a couple of episodes is not the impediment that people seem to think: remember, there are only 10 episodes, and they cannot show Sansa campaigning on someones behalf for more than an episode or so.) As you note, Sansa does have an apotheosized little brother who could help here.

      Indeed, I would say that the Bran factor (which you also cite) is more reason to doubt that she will go to Castle Black. Bran could well be able to “see” that Jon no longer is at Castle Black and that Ramsay is coming there.

      Also, although the show did not include the Pink Letter, that basically was a declaration of war on the Wall by Ramsay: so we have two reasons to think that he’ll be going there. If Bran sees that, then he should be directing Sansa to go somewhere Ramsay is not looking.

      Bearded Onion: How will Jon get his army? He needs a proper Stark with him otherwise he’s fucked. He needs a big enough army to be confident enough to march south to fight the Boltons and the Northern lords won’t go to him if hes on his own. Sansa is a legit Stark and knows about Rickon’s survival.

      That is one way it could work. For myself, I am skeptical that Jon will get Northern Lords to rally behind him quickly. He did, after all, commit high treason by letting the Wildlings into Westeros: and many will think that the Boltons might be bad, but the Wildlings are worse. (Some might think the opposite: but your analogy concerning Syrian refugees is apt here.)

      I am betting that the Rickon’s survival gun is going to be used differently. Sansa now has a new purpose: restoring her little brother to his seat. Bran can help put Sansa where she needs to be to do that just as easily as he can guide her to Castle Black: and, as noted above, he might have better incentive to do that than move her to CB.

      Here is the key: as a woman with two ex-husbands who are enemies of the Starks, I suspect that Sansa is not going to find people to be too quick to listen to her.

      Bearded Onion: Sansa and Jon are going to be in a tricky situation yes, but SOME of the Northern Lords must go to CB at some point, before Ramsay can reach them too.

      Wait, why would any northerners flee to Castle Black to escape Ramsay? The Wall is not some sanctuary, not unless they all take the black. And why is Ramsay after them? There is no civil war in the North, just the potential for it. And they have to start something before the Boltons come after them. If they do, then it will not be Castle Black where they congregate.

      Bearded Onion: LF wouldn’t just let Theon go for no reason and they must break off at some safe point, that safe point being just before they reach CB.

      Why would LF keep Reek? Unless someone is foolish enough to tell LF that Reek really is Theon Greyjoy, then Reek means nothing to LF. Sansa 1.0 would have been foolish enough to tell someone that, but I think that Sansa 1.3 is a bit wiser. Moreover, even if Sansa was to head towards the Vale, then Theon could easily just go on his own way before then. (Well, sort of…)

      Mind you, I think that Sansa will go north to go south, but Theon does not present that great a complication.

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    33. Turncloak,

      That speech is still as hair raising as the first time I’ve read it. Combine that with Stannis’ retort to Theon from Winds chapter

      “I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm’s End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?”
      You must not call him that! A wave of pain washed over Theon Greyjoy. He closed his eyes and grimaced. When he opened them again, he said, “You do not know him.”
      “No more than he knows me.”

      and I was positively sure the Battle of Ice will have the North bathing in Bolton blood!
      Second time’s a charm though, right?! Thank you for piling up on the the expectations :p

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    34. Wimsey,

      The Northern lords would to go CB to help Sansa and by extension Jon. They wouldn’t want to sit idle while their golden ticket(s) to liberating the North is in grave danger.

      Also, another thing about Sansa rallying the North with her vale army, this would require her to be hidden away from the Boltons right? Let’s say LF somehow manages to hide his giant army along with Sansa, all this means is that Ramsay will go to CB since he has no idea where Sansa is and butcher every last person he finds. Not good. Even if he doesn’t it again dooms Jon because all the lords have fucked off to side with her. But you bring up the good point in that the lords may not want to side with either Sansa or Jon due to their problematic history, this would mean they use Rickon as their flag to rally the region, only something Sansa knows about and of course the Umbers (who may or may not be pro Bolton lol).

      Theon (Not Reek anymore 😀 ) even post Ramsay is still very valuable, even if he’s been castrated he can still be used to fuck with the Greyjoys or used as a extremely valuable piece in the region. He has no reason to let him go in any case.

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    35. Were Sophie Turner and Kit Harington ever filming in Belfast at the same time? It seemed as if most of the Kit Harington sightings earlier this year didn’t coincide with any of the times Sophie was in Belfast for filming.

      If Sansa does go to Castle Black, one would expect her to be spending a fair amount of time with Jon. We don’t have any information to suggest that they were filming scenes together outside of Saintfield and the Winterfell bit with the giant.

      The most logical explanation is that Sansa would head south to join up with Littlefinger. She knows that she would have his support, and he said he’d be bringing an army to help her.

      It is true that Ramsay mentioned Jon to Sansa in Season 5, but we know that Sansa and Jon meet up at Winterfell and during the battle. That quote in of itself doesn’t necessarily mean that Sansa will scurry north.

      Liam Cunningham praising Sansa’s Season 6 storyline could just mean that Davos and Sansa meet up later in the season when Jon and Sansa do. Davos is at the 6×09 battle as well as Sansa, so that might be the source of the comment.

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    36. M,

      No one’s been seen filming with Kit on the CB site. It really doesn’t mean much, the hairwatch thing made it so whenever kit was spotted everyone went crazy, no one goes crazy when they see Sophie, Houten, Liam or Tormund’s actor.

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    37. Bearded Onion,
      oooh very good thinking imo !

      Jon also needs someone to motivate him to move south, who the fuck can do that? Sam’s gone, Davos and Mel are failed advisers to a southern king and Tormund certainly can’t. He needs someone who’ll remind him about his past and origin, that’s going to be Sansa.

      And also Wimsey,

      Wait, why would any northerners flee to Castle Black to escape Ramsay? The Wall is not some sanctuary, not unless they all take the black. And why is Ramsay after them? There is no civil war in the North, just the potential for it. And they have to start something before the Boltons come after them. If they do, then it will not be Castle Black where they congregate.

      I for one still wonder what Meera Reed is going to do this season… back to CB ? At the big northern battle ? What about Summer ? Is the direwolf staying with Bran ? And Hodor ?

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    38. M:
      and he said he’d be bringing an army to help her.

      Minor point, but he never said that. She has no idea he’s coming with an army.

      As far as how things play out in this story in terms of destination, I guess the starting point is that Sansa and Theon, when last we saw them, have no food, no transportation, and (in Theon’s case, at least) inadequate clothing for the elements — but from spoilers, they evidently get away and in Theon’s case end up in a location quite removed.

      Either they’re just going to ignore the transportation/food issue (not beyond the realm of the possible), or they get some kind of assistance, which I think realistically means either Brienne helps out or Littlefinger’s army materializes close enough to the castle to be of assistance.

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    39. So, do we expect Smalljon to turn cloak together with that other lord and his rousing speech? Will there be some kind of massive desertion and switching sides at one point?

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    40. Hariette Tuttle,

      Strangly no reports about Meera/Ellie Kendrick, but it could be like with Mel. No one noticed her. Going through WW teritory is hardly the greatest idea in the world, but what are they gonna do in that cave? I’m really looking forwards to see Bran and his gand in next season.

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    41. Mr Fixit,

      The Smalljon was said to be filming in summer/fall, so I don’t think that overlaps with the filming for the other Northern lords at all, since that’s December 16th.

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    42. Sean C.:
      Mr Fixit,

      The Smalljon was said to be filming in summer/fall, so I don’t think that overlaps with the filming for the other Northern lords at all, since that’s December 16th.

      He might be filming that as well. I’m just trying to piece together all these different Northern lords and understand how they fit into the narrative.

      Those reports of Umbers fighting for Boltons are puzzling. I guess they will switch sides (I hope so!), but I am trying to figure out if that is related to that big speech by a fat lord or if we are going to have several successive defections. Maybe some guys leave the Bolton camp before the battle, while the Umbers do the same during the battle? I’m also a little unclear on the purported Vale contribution if the recent news are correct. I really wouldn’t like LF to steal the righteous ass kicking that rightfully belongs to the Northerners themselves.

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    43. Turncloak,

      Gosh! I had forgotten about that speech, but it is an AWESOME one! I hope they keep that in: bathed in Bolton blood and fighting for Ned’s little girl, indeed!

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    44. TormundsWoman: and I was positively sure the Battle of Ice will have the North bathing in Bolton blood!

      I confess, I, too, thought that the Salmon Missive was only partially true. However, I now think that it was completely correct: and that means that something wicked this way comes if you are at Castle Black, regardless of whether you face north or south.

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    45. Bearded Onion: Theon (Not Reek anymore ) even post Ramsay is still very valuable, even if he’s been castrated he can still be used to fuck with the Greyjoys or used as a extremely valuable piece in the region. He has no reason to let him go in any case.

      Sure. And a crusty looking slime covered stone that turns out to be a precious gem is valuable: but almost nobody takes the time to clean off the stone to realize what it is worth. Littlefinger has no idea who Theon Greyjoy is other than by name. Any information he has about Theon would suggest that he was killed when Winterfell fell. LF would not be thinking to ever wonder if some beaten down kennel boy was actually a wrecked prince. Nobody who has not seen the series would: and none of the characters have seen the series.

      You are correct that LF probably would not let Theon Greyjoy go. But he would let Reek go (and gladly so) without every suspecting that he might be someone of importance.

      Hariette Tuttle: I for one still wonder what Meera Reed is going to do this season… back to CB ? At the big northern battle ? What about Summer ? Is the direwolf staying with Bran ? And Hodor ?

      I do not see how she could get out of the Children’s “fortress” without getting killed by wights. At this point, north of the Wall has to be a death trap for anything other than large packs of humans.

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    46. Wimsey,

      Salmon Missive… hehehe

      I love the idea of how twice-married Sansa would be distrusted by the northern Lords. You said that, right?

      Here’s my angle.

      Littlefinger joins up with Sansa. She doesn’t give him the full story. The North is currently still pretending to be allied with Ramsey (why not, we don’t know any different). Sansa’s got a Wanted Dead or Alive from the Lannisters though. So Littlefinger flaunts this fact (because he knows that will make them like her), and points out that she is Wardeness of the North – because he knows nothing about Rickon. Littlefinger is trying to cement the North to his will – trumpeting how “the Vale” supports his Ramsey/Sansa alliance.

      Sansa just has to get a Norther lord alone to confess she knows about Rickon and that she supports him against the Boltons… and the North will Remember…

      Bearded Onion,

      Great stuff, thanks for the read!
      I will try to trust what Sue says more and not the rumours I want to believe that might not be true…

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    47. Wimsey: I do not see how she could get out of the Children’s “fortress” without getting killed by wights.At this point, north of the Wall has to be a death trap for anything other than large packs of humans.

      Yes, and if Bloodraven and COTF are not dark creatures, that cave is one of the safest places in Westeros. They’re protected, they’re warmed, they have food. I wouldn’t go out there so soon, even being a boring place.

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    48. ladywolfsbane: I love the idea of how twice-married Sansa would be distrusted by the northern Lords. You said that, right?

      It is a possibility, and one thing that we really need to do here is keep all of the possibilities open. (After all, unlike B&W, we have not read a synopsis of Winds of Winter….) Remember, Sansa did willingly go to Winterfell to marry Ramsay: and it’s not like any of them know that he was an abusive husband. That might not be viewed too favorably to survivors of houses that were betrayed by the Boltons. And, let’s face it: they aren’t a culture that would be anywhere near as horrified by this as we are by Sansa being sexually abused by Ramsay. Now, Sansa does have the “wanted dead-or-alive” from King’s Landing, and that suggests she cannot be that bad a person: but might that not be a ruse? Will stories have circulated also from the south that Sansa was complicit in her father’s execution? (It’s not true, but it’s not false, either.)

      I would stress that I do not expect all of this to happen: but I would say that I would not be surprised if stuff like this does happen (if that makes sense).

      ladywolfsbane: Sansa just has to get a Norther lord alone to confess she knows about Rickon and that she supports him against the Boltons… and the North will Remember…

      I think that Sansa would need to do two more things. One, she has to convince that person that this is true and not some delusion or lie. Two, that lord has to feel that the restoring the Starks and fighting the Boltons is more important here and now than is dealing with a huge Wildling invasion.

      And then from there, she and/or that Northern lord has to convince others that restoring Starks is a possibility, and it’s more important a priority than is fighting Wildlings.

      M, B & W have done a nice job of setting it up so that the people that Sansa, Jon, Daeny, etc., need to win over have very good reasons to not support them at this point. Oh, I think that they will in the end: but I am betting that this is a big part of the actual story this year.

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    49. Hodors Bastard,

      Seven Hells! Ser Patrek may have suffered a fatal blow this week, and the Conningtons are looking to unleash Grayscale just in time for winter.

      House Mormont currently fighting valiantly… the Cheesemongers of Butterwell are slipping…. (and I’d rather lay siege to Storm’s end than go pay them a visit come January- if we survive till winter)

      I think Khal Oz and his Bloodriders just may handle the BwB come Sunday, in the light of the seven…. we shall see!

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    50. He certainly looks the part for Smalljon, at least in the face.

      He’s only 5′ 11” though, in my head Clive Mantle was about 13 feet tall. I guess you can be imposing without really being super huge though.

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    51. Every body keeps on assuming Jon will be at Castle Black, why? There are no indications or clues in the books or the series this is the case. Just because he dies there it doesn’t mean he will come back to life there. I’d imagine the loyal brothers and some of the Wildling’s will take him to the haunted forest to burn his body before the weirwood tree where he said his words. If he comes back to at this point I’d suggest they would have to smuggle him back – through the blackgate. If he is reanimated from the flames he’ll spend some time in the wilderness before coming back to himself – with a few crazy tree/bran chats/visions had. If this is the case he could end up anywhere.

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    52. Simon,

      I always thought his resurrection needs to be close to the Wall, because Mel’s powers are greater there and she will play part in it as Sue said it. Magic is stronger.

      Spent some time in wilderness? Risky and literally no reason. Burned before the White Tree might be happening.A lot of things depends on the first steps post FTW from NW camp(Loyalists and Nationalists) and what is mainly Wildlings gonna do with Tormund. They could be accused of such a crime or poor Olly is gonna be blamed…they can blame it on his recklesness. Trully interesting to see what Thorne as the new leader would do. They can put him in the Ice cells or I don’t know. 😀 They left his body and that sign traitor. Mel at this point has no reason to do anything about him and needs some help either from R’hllor or if Jon managed to warg into Ghost. Davos is a smuggler. Smuggling Jon out of CB is an option, but like I said his resurrection should be near the Wall.

      If Tormund hears about this, he can decide to fight them thanks to sheer advantage in numbers and that will be the end for Thorne and co. Numbers are against him and NW has no allies. Ghost/Jon.

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    53. Geralt of Rivia,

      I think the ice cells are part of it or perhaps the storage cells. The Prince born in Smoke and Salt for some reason made me think of the winter food stores with all the salted food – I don’t know why. Perhaps the ashes are those of Castle Black after a fight with the Wildlings???
      I don’t however think the Mel is the only reason for Jon’s resurrection. It’s all the gods and non and it won’t be clear she had any part in his resurrection even if she thinks does. It’s like all interpretations about what the red comet meant. Basically everyone came up with a story to suit their own narrative and world view.

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    54. I like me some Tyrells so mine’s another no vote for that spoiler. I won’t allow it! 😉 There aren’t many rumours we hear that I instantly think “that really doesn’t sound right”, but this is one of them. I can think of quite a few reasons it would be really unlikely, although certainly not completely impossible. Mind you, if the Tyrell army are there to help free Marg, it could conceivably be four of them instead?

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    55. Simon,

      You see if Mel is not going to play any part …I don’t see the reason of having her come back to castle black..

      Except only two people acted on comet …
      Mel and dany ..

      Others just took the comet as superstition….

      Its like fans having different superstitions while watching a game…only two sides play in the ground but various people from various corner of the world follow and do different things so that their team can win…but except the result of the game is depend upon the two playing in the ground …

      Comet is the ground …
      mel and dany are two team …
      One tried creating a fake prophesied hero based on the comet ..
      Other followed the comet ..

      And other westerosi are just fans having differrnt superstitions …its what we will get different perspectives from different povs around the world..
      But we as a reader will know why actually the comet was present and what it means..

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    56. Simon,

      Sue said that Mel will be there with Ghost. I don’t think that both them will be just a spectators. So far we know that only R’hllor got the power to bring back people. We’ll see about this, but Ice cells could be a way.

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    57. Wimsey,

      Oooo… they’ve set of challenges for the characters to overcome? Like, they can’t be all “I’m the Hero” and look cute with their hair and dragons and center stage and just charisma they way out of everything? You’re getting me more hyped than the news we’re hearing…

      Simon,
      WHY have I never heard the “born amid salt and smoke” ice food stores theory before? Did I dismiss it, or did I forget? In the book

      GRRM goes on and on about the stores of food… dear lord, for once his pretty descriptions of food had a point, screw Dragonstone, give me “salted” pork and “smoked” sausages!

      Rivia and others I can’t tag or I’ll get delayed with my post

      I think resurrection at the wall is a good bet… because for the simple reason that for all we know it’s the last time they’ll be able to use that set. Free money to use an existing set! Please just don’t make the ice cells look like a Jesus crypt D&D… oh please…

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    58. I hope this twitter rumor is fake because

      I really like the Tyrells, all the scenes between Marg and Cersei are among my favorites, but I remember Finn Jones saying recently that the character he hates the most is Cersei and we will find out why in season 6!

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    59. Wasn’t there a recent interview with Natalie Dormer (Marg) where she said something to the effect that Cersei was the least of her problems in S6, or did I just make that up? She could be double bluffing I suppose, but the whole idea feels wrong to me. Probably at least partly because I don’t like it one bit.

      Am definitively going to have to switch to cheering for the people I hate at this rate as it’s the only way to guarantee them making it through to the next round, aka S7 🙁

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    60. ladywolfsbane: Oooo… they’ve set of challenges for the characters to overcome? Like, they can’t be all “I’m the Hero” and look cute with their hair and dragons and center stage and just charisma they way out of everything?

      heh, sarcasm becomes you! However, that is considered a strident assumption to some! The idea that the whole north will not just quickly line up behind Sansa and Jon is disliked by a few people here.

      ladywolfsbane: Please just don’t make the ice cells look like a Jesus crypt D&D… oh please…

      Does a “Jesus Crypt” look like anything in particular?

      At any rate, my bet is that Mel swoops down on Jon after Thorne et al. leave to redo the prior election.

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    61. M,

      I would take these rumours with a huge pinch of salt. I really hope it’s not true (couldn’t bear losing Ollena) but I guess it could be a possibility. If for example Tommen dies and Cersei implicates/blames the Tyrells in her grief/madness. Can’t see Cersei lasting past S7 whatever happens.

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    62. Regarding the Tyrells:

      Don’t know what was listed as the Tyrell line in the books, those four: Marge, Loras, Olenna and Mace, are the ONLY ones left in the Tyrell line in the show, right? I don’t remember mention of any other relatives. If they are killed, (I agree with Lulus Mum, would be terrible) who does that leave to lay claim to the lands? Even if there are cousins or uncles or whatnot, that means there would be another battle in Westeros, the battle to control Highgarden. Who would lead that battle and perhaps lay claim? Randyll Tarley.

      If Tarley overthrows the Lannisters, kills Tommen and seizes the throne as King, Sam would become a … prince.

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    63. Wimsey: It is a possibility, and one thing that we really need to do here is keep all of the possibilities open.

      You mean like the possibility one…just one Northern Lord may put some stock in the news they received via Raven from Castle Black (and possibly from other sources) regarding the return of the WW’s?

      As far as Meera making it back South, well, she made it north with her ever weakening brother in tow, not to mention Hodor carrying Bran. Sure, Hodor is strong, but even the strongest person will be at least slightly slowed by having to carry someone on his back. If Meera, Hodor, and Summer try to make it back south, they would not only have the advantage of being able to travel more quickly than they did on the journey north, they would have a better idea of where they’re going, since they already did the trip. Add to that Bran doing his tree-thing, plus the possibility of the CotF helping them, too, I think there’s a decent chance they could make it back south. It isn’t a certainty, of course, but a decent possibility.

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    64. Nymeria Warrior Queen: If Meera, Hodor, and Summer try to make it back south, they would not only have the advantage of being able to travel more quickly than they did on the journey north, they would have a better idea of where they’re going, since they already did the trip. Add to that Bran doing his tree-thing, plus the possibility of the CotF helping them, too, I think there’s a decent chance they could make it back south. It isn’t a certainty, of course, but a decent possibility.

      I’ve always thought so – we only have the smallest idea of what it will be possible for Bran to do from his new position as BloodRaven trainee/soon-to-be-BloodRaven. Plus, having lived even a short time growing up in the North, he is familiar with the politics. If he can long-distance warg into Hodor, they can make it.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: just one Northern Lord may put some stock in the news they received via Raven from Castle Black (and possibly from other sources) regarding the return of the WW’s?

      Wouldn’t you think there has to be at least one family in the North who truly believes in the return of the WW? We saw Old Nan passing down stories; she can’t have been the only old person passing them down. There has to be someone alive whose great grandfather heard from his great grandfather about the horrors of winter and believes strongly.

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    65. Not really the “bear of a man” they advertised for but with the right make up he could be ok. Only 6″ though so not exactly that physically imposing.

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    66. Thronetender: I’ve always thought so – we only have the smallest idea of what it will be possible for Bran to do from his new position as BloodRaven trainee/soon-to-be-BloodRaven. Plus, having lived even a short time growing up in the North, he is familiar with the politics. If he can long-distance warg into Hodor, they can make it.

      While we can’t know what parts of the books will make it into the show, the books already hint at

      the fact Bran will be able to do more than Greenseers have done in the past. I say this because BR tells Bran specifically he cannot communicate with people through the trees, yet there is the moment Theon not only hears his name, he thinks he sees Bran’s face in the Weirwood tree.

      So, there are a variety of possible advantages Meera, Hodor, and Summer could have journeying south they did not have on their journey north. At least that’s my thinking.

      Thronetender: Wouldn’t you think there has to be at least one family in the North who truly believes in the return of the WW? We saw Old Nan passing down stories; she can’t have been the only old person passing them down. There has to be someone alive whose great grandfather heard from his great grandfather about the horrors of winter and believes strongly.

      Yes, I do think, even if it’s only one Northern Lord, someone is likely to believe the news of the WW’s, or at the very least entertain the possibility. I do not think each and every one will summarily dismiss the information as false. Even in the first season, Ned questioned whether what the deserter from the Night’s Watch reported was actually true. Of course, he’d already lopped off the deserter’s head, but the fact Ned seemed to have some doubt about whether he should have beheaded the guy indicates to me a certain willingness to believe in the Old Tales. I know someone will correct me if I’m remembering incorrectly, but I believe Ned started to have said doubts on the way back from the beheading when they found the direwolf pups.

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    67. TheTouchOfFrost:
      Not really the “bear of a man” they advertised for but with the right make up he could be ok. Only 6″ though so not exactly that physically imposing.

      I’m sure you’re aware of this and it’s just a typo Frosty, but for our non-imperial fellow Watchers, double inverted commas ( ” ) are shorthand for inches not feet ( which are a single ’ ). So according to you he’s only about 15cm tall. Oh well, size isn’t everything and they can do wonders with camera angles and things these days! 😉 😀

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    68. Wimsey,

      Yeah, a Jesus resurrection crypt does often look like something. Try typing that into Google images. usually stone, a square or arched doorway…. you know, a bit like the opening to the dragon’s crypt!

      I live in the land of sarcasm….

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    69. Nymeria Warrior Queen: While we can’t know what parts of the books will make it into the show, the books already hint at

      regarding your spoiler about Bran Greenseeing:

      did you mean that he (Bloodraven) couldn’t communicate through the trees, or that Bran wouldn’t be able to communicate through the trees? I can’t figure out how Bran is supposed to be able to get visions from the past, particularly from the Tower of Joy, if all the Weirwood trees were cut down long ago.

      I’ve never been as hyped about seeing Bran’s part in the show as I’ve been about seeing the rest of the cast. This year, though, I think I’m way more interested in seeing what Bran can do, because it will be a different facet of the show, rather than seeing Dany traipse through Essos again. I hope she doesn’t have to eat another horse heart or something like that.

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    70. ladywolfsbane: Sansa’s got a Wanted Dead or Alive from the Lannisters though. So Littlefinger flaunts this fact (because he knows that will make them like her), and points out that she is Wardeness of the North – because he knows nothing about Rickon

      Wait … how is Sansa Wardeness of the North? Doesn’t that title belong to Walda currently, because Roose is Warden of the North? And would her offspring be heir to the North? Which will then of course go into the realization that Ramsay will probably whack her.

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    71. Thronetender,

      I meant

      BR tells Bran he will not be able to communicate with other people through the trees (I took that as meaning BR could not, either). However, Bran seems to do just that with Theon. No, it isn’t like he has some conversation with Theon, but there was some kind of…contact. That’s what makes me think Bran will be able to do more than the other Greenseers have. As for the Weirwoods all being cut down, there are some left. There’s one in Oldtown, plus all the ones on the Isle of Faces. Also, if I remember correctly, the spirits of the CotF who die go into ravens, so I think some of what Bran will be through warging the ravens containing the spirits of various CotF. So, even if there is no Weirwood left in the general proximity of the ToJ, he may be able to see what happened there through the memories of the ravens.

      I’ll try and find the exact quote to which I was referring regarding what BR told Bran…it may take me a few, though.

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    72. Thronetender,

      Here are BR’s wrods to Bran:

      “But,” said Bran, “he heard me.”

      “He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

      While that was about Bran thinking Ned heard him through the Weirwood, I always took it to mean whether in the past or in the present, one cannot communicate with other people through the Weirwoods. Also, regarding what Bran will and will not be able to see, here’s another quote I found…

      “Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use…but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.”

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    73. ladywolfsbane,

      The quote about in Ice and smoke is in several Jon and Mel chats in Dance with Dragons. Mel is looking to Stanis unable to understand why her visions only show her snow. Obviously it points pretty heavily to D being the prophesied red saviour with her dragons born from stone but obviously she and we are missing something here- most probably a balancing act that includes the three heads of the dragon.

      And I agree I hope they don’t go all nativity on us.

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    74. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      THat is not quite what happens!

      BR tells Bran that he cannot really communicate with people in the past. All of the examples BR gives are of people from his past. This says nothing about whether Bran can use the weirnet to whisper into people’s minds and dreams.

      After all, if the Old Gods could not do that, then how would people ever have been aware of them? But past and present are two different things, just as much for the weirnet as for a cell phone.

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    75. Wimsey,

      I agree. However it will have to be hard to achieve and subject to confusion on the part of the receiver, otherwise all we this will give us is a naff deus ex machina device that’ll kill the narrative. It should be like all magic in the books a sword without a hilt.

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    76. Thronetender: Wait … how is Sansa Wardeness of the North?

      I don’t think that is a title. Ned was Warden of the North, but that did not make his wife Wardeness. A woman appointed as Warden (like that would ever happen!) would be Wardeness.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: Yes, I do think, even if it’s only one Northern Lord, someone is likely to believe the news of the WW’s, or at the very least entertain the possibility.

      That seems like a bit of a long shot. People worry about threats that they know are real (say, Wildlings), and not about things that they do not know are real. The stories of wildlings will count for nothing: they are liars and thieves who have just come up with a clever ruse for invading the south. And Jon’s words will have lost all credibility after it becomes known that he let in the Wildlings.

      I know that you love the idea of there being Northerners who have been preparing for this fight, but there simply is no reason to think that it will happen. If this was to happen, then the gun should have been planted on the wall: we should have seen some important Northerner openly give credence to the old stories and/or openly question whether the Wildlings are necessarily the real threat from beyond the Wall. Neither show nor book has done that. When it comes to considering possibilities, we should stick to ones that the show and books have not basically shot down already: that gives us dozens of possibilities as it is without backtracking to allow for ones that go against what we’ve already learned! Moreover, it goes against one of the most basic aspects of human nature: a stubborn ability to deny uncomfortable truths until you are forced to stop doing so!

      What the Starks have to hope for is that there are any Northern Lords who view the Boltons as a bigger threat than the Wildlings. Even that is a bit of a longshot: yes, the Boltons are despicable, but they are Northerners; the Wildlings are despicable and not-Northerners. Even then, it will take cajoling and charisma, I think: Jon has too many black marks on him by now, and Sansa does not have a sterling record either.

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    77. Simon: therwise all we this will give us is a naff deus ex machina device that’ll kill the narrative. It should be like all magic in the books a sword without a hilt.

      Amusingly and almost ironically, it really is not Deus ex Machina even when it involves gods if it has been introduced as a plot device already. I harp fairly endlessly about Chekhov’s Guns: anything shown early should be fired late. The converse is any “gun” fired late needs to be hung early. Violating Chekhov’s Rule is simply bad storytelling: do not waste time developing things if they are not going to have payoffs. Violating Chekhov’s Inverse Rule is Deus ex Machina: a solution that appears out of nowhere.

      The Tree Gods gun has been pretty well hung in the books. We see indications that they can communicate to people via dreams (Bran in particular gets that), and we see that they can sort of whisper to people in the hear-and-now through the trees. I suspect that this gun will get well-hung on the show, too. And once it’s hung, they are free to fire it as they please. In fact, they damn well better do so ! 😀

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    78. Wimsey,

      Point taken but I still hope it is a double edge sword otherwise it will still be naff. The strength of the show is that magic is not to the fore and is grounded in the complicated nature of life. And if the gun is fired there needs to be blow back.

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    79. Simon: The strength of the show is that magic is not to the fore and is grounded in the complicated nature of life. And if the gun is fired there needs to be blow back.

      Oh, I agree entirely. Really, this has to be Bran’s issue of getting people to line up behind him despite his disadvantages. I mean, yeah, we believe in the Old Gods and we believe that they communicate to us through the trees…. but, seriously, when does stuff ever happen? We are imagining those whispers and those dreams could mean anything, etc.

      So, Bran trying to organize people could be as fraught with difficulties (due to built in disadvantages) as Jon, Daeny, Sansa or Tyrion doing so. (Tyrion’s issues in Meereen could easily parallel all of this, too.)

      My question now becomes: how does Arya’s tale fit into this? We know that the Waif seems to want Arya dead. That offers a vague connection. But how will it feed the rest of the story?

      Simon: And if the gun is fired there needs to be blow back.

      Why? The issue is that important plot devices need be introduced and developed before they are employed and things that get a lot of attention on page/screen need to be important to story and/or plot before it is all said and done. There need not be any blowback: it just cannot be arbitrary.

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    80. Thronetender,

      Littlefinger’s plans don’t include Fat Walda. Or a heck of a lot of intelligence as far as I’m concerned, book Littlefinger is more savy… “Wardeness of the North” made me snort when I heard it on T.V….

      Simon,

      Going all nativity on us…. oh man, that’s even worse! 🙂

      Not only did we see him die in FRONT of a cross, if we are going to see him resurrected a la Jesus, and THEN they turn ToJ into a nativity scene, I’m going to die a little inside….

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    81. Lady Wolfsbane: Or a heck of a lot of intelligence as far as I’m concerned, book Littlefinger is more savy…

      They seem equally savvy. LF is very-well informed, but he’s not omniscient in either book or show. He does not know much about the North, but none of the southerners do: and LF almost certainly knows more about the North than is typical for Kings Landing.

      The real question concerning LF is: what is his end game, and why is he doing all of this? 15+ years of debating this, and I’ve yet to get a convincing answer. (My favorite conjecture that he actually was an agent for the Others basically bit the dust when absolutely nothing supporting this appeared in either Crows or Dragons.)

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    82. Wimsey,

      If you read the post I made with the direct quotes from the books, you’ll see I addressed past versus present.

      Wimsey: I know that you love the idea of there being Northerners who have been preparing for this fight

      I’ve said nothing of the sort. What I have done, however, is vehemently disagree with your contention not one single Northern Lord will put any stock whatsoever in any information which makes it to them about the WW’s, whether that information came from the ravens sent from CB, Osha, other Wildlings, or what have you.

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    83. Wimsey: heh, sarcasm becomes you!However, that is considered a strident assumption to some!The idea that the whole north will not just quickly line up behind Sansa and Jon is disliked by a few people here.

      Does a “Jesus Crypt” look like anything in particular?

      At any rate, my bet is that Mel swoops down on Jon after Thorne et al. leave to redo the prior election.

      1. Again, I agree that given that the vast majority of people in Westeros believe that the Others are a myth/fairytale and the minority that believes they were real mostly think they were exterminated 8,000 years ago, yep, I agree that it will be a tall order to convince the Northern Lords that they exist and are a clear and present danger. That Jon will in all likelihood be identified as the leader of the Wildlings will also not win him any popularity contests in the North. Given the likely casting of Manderly, I expect D&D will adapt the “Davos goes to find Rickon” and the “Davos rallies the Northern Lords” plots in the books and substitute Jon/Sansa instead of Stannis. I suspect Sansa may accompany Davos, both to show how she grows into a “political player” and also to give noble Show Davos a young lady to protect to “redeem” himself after failing to protect Shireen in the show. Thus hence Liam Cunningham’s “Sansa is on a hell of an arc this year” comments. Alternatively they could just have Sansa somehow run into Littlefinger and have some semblance of her Winds of Winter plot, only not necessarily in the Vale, but I don’t see Littlefinger arriving North with his “trained to fight in ice and snow” Vale troops until late in the season…

      2. After some reflection, yep, turning the Tower of Joy into a “Nativity scene” and Jon’s resurrection into a “Christ-like” moment sounds EXACTLY like what D&D might do; after all, they already showed him dying in front of a “Cross”…

      3. Yep, I also think Mel (and Ghost) swoop down on Jon’s body after the Watch leaves…with Davos shortly after stumbling upon them…

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    84. Wimsey,

      Wimsey,

      I’m not sure the waif wants Arya dead – other than one must die as oneself to become no one. I think she is the hard arse part of the mystic instruction team.

      As to Arya’s part in the narrative I think she will play the part of the stranger and help balance return to the world but will not be reunited with family except momentarily. The story the waif told Arya about her past in the series will be Arya’s story. She will right the wrongs but then having saved her family give up who she is to truly become no one – as part of the bitter sweet end. Part of her conflict will revolve around her being in conflict with Jons vision for moving beyond the wheel of power and revenge.

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    85. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Here are BR’s wrods to

      Bran:

      Nymeria, thanks so much for going back to look for those quotes. That gets me even more stoked about seeing Bran this coming year. Viewers have already been primed to expect Bran to be able to do more than the average Greenseers can do. Jojen said that no-one else could warg a human, yet Bran did it easily with Hodor, with no training whatsoever, just by sheer will.

      And you quoted the part about him contacting Theon. Now I’m expecting him to be one of the greatest Bloodraven/Greenseers. He’s a Stark of Winterfell, after all.

      The part you said about singers carving out eyes in Heart trees, and those being the first things a Greenseer can use really has potential. I’m assuming the reference is to human singers, minstrels and such. What possibilities that holds! The show has primed us about singers from the beginning: they will sing songs about our deeds, they won’t sing songs about us, blah blah. But many mentions of singers. Once they explain this device in the first episodes of the show, Bran will be able to easily use it to see what’s going on almost anywhere they want him to.

      Combine that with an explanation of the CoF and Raven souls, with Ravens everywhere, Brans ability to envision anything in the world will be phenominal. Wow. How many months until April?

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    86. George: I agree that given that the vast majority of people in Westeros believe that the Others are a myth/fairytale and the minority that believes they were real mostly think they were exterminated 8,000 years ago

      Yours is a statement with which I would not argue. I think it’s accurate and reasonable, yet it does not completely eliminate the possibility some Northern Lord will put a little stock in the information coming to them about the WW’s return.

      Thronetender,

      You’re quite welcome! 🙂

      Just to clairfy,

      the first quote I posted was about Bran thinking Ned heard him, not Theon. Theon hearing Bran is a different moment. As for the singers, that’s what the CotF call themselves…singers of the songs of the earth, or something like that. It could have a connection with other singers (minstrels and such), I hadn’t thought of that, but it could have no connection. What I love about the quote “seeing far beyond the trees themselves,” is it leaves open so many possibilities!

      If I look at it in terms of waiting until April, I’ll go nuts, so instead I’m thinking…”how long until January,” since that seems like when we usually get the first trailer. Yeah, I’m just playing time-games with myself, but January seems fairly close, whereas April seems like an eternity.

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    87. Lulus Mum: I’m sure you’re aware of this and it’s just a typo Frosty, but for our non-imperial fellow Watchers, double inverted commas ( ” ) are shorthand for inches not feet ( which are a single ’ ).

      A mistake that no one who has seen ‘This Is Spinal Tap’ should ever make again!

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    88. Wimsey,

      I’ve said it before…there is no Littlefinger endgame. As long as the Nobel Houses go down before he does – he doesn’t care what happens in the end. He’s a surfer with a death-wish… riding the wave of chaos. Molding it, directing it towards Noble houses, but he will not escape it…

      Simon,
      and George too, but I can’t tag 3 peeps…

      I think the problem is D&D and their team in this instance, because so much of the visuals are NOT subtle
      Jon Snow looks like the stereotypical Jesus – the new poster might as well have a crown of thorns
      Picture Mellisandre, season 2… she looks like the stereotypical Virgin Mary, but in light red not light blue, covered head and all
      The traitor cross… that ticked me right off. We’ve covered MANY deaths in GoT and they’ve all been burnings – not burials. Really??? A CROSS in a Christian form (not Bolton-type)… Arghh…

      The visuals I formed in the books were nothing like that… so unless people can come up with some Christian Jesus hints that shaped the visuals in this direction.. it’s 100% D&D’s choice…

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    89. Lulus Mum,

      Certainly would make him the SmallJon! Aye, I meant to put an apostrophe. A long week of getting children ready for a Christmas play has taken it’s toll on me!

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    90. Simon: Blow back lies at the heart of this saga. There are consequences to all actions

      That is true, but that is for personal decisions: the protagonists are always forced to choose between two conflicting ideals. However, individual plot devices need not have such blowbacks. So, perhaps there can be some blowbacks from some of Bran’s particular decisions: but there shouldn’t be simply from the fact that he’s now a tree god.

      ladywolfsbane: I’ve said it before…there is no Littlefinger endgame. As long as the Nobel Houses go down before he does – he doesn’t care what happens in the end.

      That would be highly unsatisfactory, and basically arbitrary. To use the Snape comparison, it would be just as bad as if Snape had turned out to be “evil” for no particular reason. LF needs to have some motives and goal that, when all is said and done, makes us slap our foreheads. And that one does not do it.

      ladywolfsbane: GoT and they’ve all been burnings – not burials. Really??? A CROSS in a Christian form (not Bolton-type)… Arghh…

      The crosses are not Christan form: they are supposed to roll. You cannot make a Christian Cross the spokes of a wheel; however, you can with a Bolton Cross.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: yet it does not completely eliminate the possibility some Northern Lord will put a little stock in the information coming to them about the WW’s return.

      No, but at this point the burden of evidence is on the idea that there will be some people who are waiting for the WW’s return. The show and books have repeatedly hit us with the fact that the two views about the White Walkers are that they used to exist but are extinct now, and that they never existed at all. If it was going to be important that some Westerosi were going to accept this claim, then it was paramount that M, B & W introduce that possibility. Instead, what they have effectively done is told us “Nope, there are no guns on that wall.” They cannot then pull one out from behind a picture and say “fooled you!”

      In a way, it gets back to Simon’s observation that there needs to be blow-back from the protagonists’ choices. GRRM almost never misses an opportunity for this, and B&W seem to make up for those that he misses. Jon’s attempt to claim that there are White Walkers coming as a justification for letting the Wildlings through has to generate blowback. Just killing Jon this way isn’t enough: and given that the entire case against Jon in the minds of people who will condemn him is that the Wildlings are the real threat and the Walkers are a largely imagined one, M,B&W cannot give Jon an overly easy way out. (Really, Jon should get “believers” when they see it for themselves.)

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    91. Wimsey,

      First, you try and represent my saying I think it’s possible at least one (and, sure, maybe only one) Northern Lord will put some stock, even if only a little, in the news they’ve received, through whatever means, of the WW’s (in contrast to your insistence every single Northern Lord will summarily dismiss the idea as a bunch of hooey…to the point of you saying if even one seemed to believe it at all, it would border on a plot hole) as me saying I love the idea of there being Northerners who have been preparing for this fight. Now, you try again to misrepresent what I’ve been saying in a slightly, but only slightly, different way…as the idea that there will be some people who are waiting for the WW’s return. That’s downright Fox news-ish.

      Once again, I’ve said nothing of the sort, but hey, you just keep on with your inaccurate statements regarding what I’ve argued. Your nonsense is almost amusing…

      almost.

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    92. Wimsey: So, perhaps there can be some blowbacks from some of Bran’s particular decisions: but there shouldn’t be simply from the fact that he’s now a tree god.

      I wouldn’t expect Bran to be totally safe either. Since the WWs are on the march again after several millennia, I am assuming that any established treaty between the CotF and the WWs after The Long Night has dissolved. I consider weirnet central to be a target in addition to the wall. The wights may not be able to enter but a WW attack may be another story. The magic surrounding weirnet central may be relevant to the magic surrounding the integrity of the wall, among other things.

      I can’t wait to learn of the many classified CotF secrets stored in their underground SCIF! I’m sure many “others” are interested as well. The cave’s integrity should/will be tested…maybe even compromised from within…

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    93. Simon,

      You mean the instance where Mel says stannis must be the one because he is lord of dragonstone a place amdst salt and smoke…and jon points out that she is wrong that he was only lord and not born there. …
      As it happens we know who was born there

      I never believed in that theory …aren’t you the one who said why everyone assumes he will be kept In the wall and there is no clue for that in the both books and show…I can see them keeping in a ice cell based on bran vision…but even then he will not wake from there…someone has to take him out and do the ritual

      The funny thing about this theory is that whoever keeps Jon body in the store room will also take see patrek body which is in pieces and hang above the body of Jon…no sense whatsoever other than having made situtation around jon where there is salt and smoke and a bleeding star (even though everyone forgets its a blue star )..
      I do hope ser patrek will be bleeding in the room till jon wakes up. ..LOL..

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    94. ladywolfsbane,

      It served its purpose…

      Jon making a deal with IB and Bowen marsh getting more and more angry with LC because he keeps letting wildlings when there is limited source for the NW themselves..
      It showed some don’t like the decisions jon made ..
      It was one of the reasons they decided to kill jon ..

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    95. dragonbringer,

      Yes I did ask why John has to stay at the wall. I just got annoyed with every one focusing on the wall as the only location he could be reanimated at. Beric was not at the Wall and he was brought back from death, nor was Catalyn Stark. Again Black Hands and the army of the dead also indicate reanimation were raised away from the wall. Perhaps proximity will change that reanimation and make it more powerful – I don’t know.

      To have Jon’s body burnt before the old gods in the Haunted Forest, with his Bothers and Mel witnessing his body consumed by the flames and left for ashes and then to have him appear a lonely figure before the wall some time afterwards – end episode one or two – would be dramatic.

      Having him reanimated alone in the liminal space of the grove, between life and death would also provide the perfect space for Bran and Jon to connect with each other and for Jon in someway to become a champion for the green seers, the children and for humanity in general.

      I’m also not convinced Mel will be totally behind Jon’s rebirth. That will not however stop her from claiming his rebirth as the work of her red god. I instead think it will be a combination of events and influences.

      As to Ser Patrick I have no idea where they’ll put him. Perhaps he’ll be in a bowl of brown before Jon is brought back.

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    96. Simon,

      Another thought.. While Mel has said her power is stronger at the wall that amounts to little. Thoros clearly stated it was no power of his that reanimated Beric or LSH. It was instead the power of the Red God. So however strong The wall makes Mel it is not her power that will bring Jon back.

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    97. Thronetender,

      If Tarley overthrows the Lannisters, kills Tommen and seizes the throne as King, Sam would become a… prince

      That is an interesting possibility you’ve brought up, as Tarly is a Tyrell bannerman and has been referred to as the finest soldier in the kingdom (by Kevan Lannister).

      But Sam can’t ever be a prince—he’s a man of the NW and has sworn to hold no lands and wear no crown.

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    98. Wimsey:

      The real question concerning LF is: what is his end game, and why is he doing all of this?15+ years of debating this, and I’ve yet to get a convincing answer.(My favorite conjecture that he actually was an agent for the Others basically bit the dust when absolutely nothing supporting this appeared in either Crows or Dragons.)

      It’s pretty clear to me that LF wants the throne (and hes not far from achieving that): Lord of HH, acting protector of the Vale and soon may control the North through Sansa (or so he intends). He could have 3/4 of the realm under his command.

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    99. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Once again, I’ve said nothing of the sort, but hey, you just keep on with your inaccurate statements regarding what I’ve argued. Your nonsense is almost amusing…

      If I ever write nonsense, then that will be an amusing first. Your assumption all along seems to have been that there will be people south of the Wall who accept the idea that White Walkers are coming, and who (presumably) have any inkling about what this means. To this end, I have to ask: if that has not been your premise, what has it been then? Simply put, do you think that Jon is going to be viewed as the betrayed or the betrayer by the Northerners? (I think the former: his job was to keep Wildlings out of Westeros, not let them into Westeros.) Do you think that there will be Westerosi who take the threat of White Walkers seriously? (I think not: M,B&W should have hung that gun on the wall by now: or do you think that they have hung it and I simply have missed it?)

      I’ve been pretty upfront that I think that this is going to be a story about what someone has to do to get people that otherwise would not heed them do so. Do you think that the story is going to be about something else? If so, then what?

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    100. Hodors Bastard: I wouldn’t expect Bran to be totally safe either. Since the WWs are on the march again after several millennia, I am assuming that any established treaty between the CotF and the WWs after The Long Night has dissolved.

      Ooh, that is a damn good question that I had not considered. I suppose that it depends on how much the Others blame the Children for any lapse in whatever agreement happened, or fi they deem the “main server” as an important target. I think I had assumed that the main Walker host would have swept south of there, and although the area might surrounded by rogue wights (I certainly would not bet on anyone making it alive to the Wall from there), that would be it. On the other hand: now that you mention it, it certainly looks like they were stockpiling wights outside of the the Children Server, haven’t they? Has that been some sort of long-term blockade? Or some sort of “ready in case we need it” attack force?

      What this also raises asking is, why does R’hllor not recognize (or instruct its servants) that the Children are working against the Walkers? heh, is it possible that R’hllor is what became of Azor Ahai, and that the truth is that the Children, Walkers, Giants and First Men stabbed him in the back or sacrificed him in some way with some agreement aeons ago?

      Jon, Bran, Daeny, etc., are stumbling into things much bigger than they realized, obviously. However, this also makes me wonder about Sansa’s particular role. She was the one character that got most badly burned by buying the fairy tales in her life. Has her having learned the hardway that the fairy tales are all propaganda going to get her to ask some important question at some point?

      Riddles in the dark!

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    101. Wimsey,
      Well, I consider Littlefinger a mad genius in a way, so I won’t be disappointed, if in the end, his plans are madness. There better be a good 2nd layer to the Dornish scheming though…

      dragonbringer,

      True, true. I’m a foodie, so I love any excuse for GRRM to go off about food…

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    102. Wimsey: If I ever write nonsense, then that will be an amusing first.

      Does your hubris know no bounds? To try and turn what I’ve said many times into I think the Northerners have been preparing for this, or waiting for it, is utter nonsense. I’m not going to repeat myself, as I’ve said the same thing many times. If you need a reminder as to what I’ve been arguing (which will answer the questions you’ve posed), simply read one of my many posts you’ve quoted. It’s all right there in black and white, and you seem to be the only person who is having an issue comprehending what I’ve said.

      I have no interest in continuing to go round and round with you, given you are either incapable of understanding what I’ve set forth in plain English, or, more likely, you are choosing to play dense.

      Have a nice day.

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    103. For all of those wrestling in the “What is Petyr Baelish’s end game?” match, this is what I have to say: When I first saw the argument come up, I was sure someone would remember this little verbal sparring match between Varys and Baelish, and quote it. Maybe, like me, you didn’t want to bother at first, or didn’t want to get into it. But I’ve had a firm idea of what that weasel’s plan was for a long time, and finally couldn’t bear not putting in my two cents.

      I believe his plan has two major facets: One, oh yes he does want to be king and rule the whole darned thing. Two, along the way or very soon after he takes reign, he will shame, demote and/or delete every major house who has ever sneered at or hindered him in any way, making especially sure to shame the grand ladies of such houses as best as he can.

      He’s already done a fair job of shaming and/or deleting some of the ladies: attempting to shame Cat and Olenna by meeting them in the Brothel, making Lysa fly. Who knows what he intends to do Cersei, at the very least for empowering the HS which lead to profits from his closed businesses being brought to nothing.

      As for wanting to rule, here is the text between him and Varys. I believe it’s early in Season 2. Notice he doesn’t deny wanting the crown, whereas Varys does deny he wants the crown. After rereading this, and maybe going on youtube to see the scene again, where you can see just how longingly Baelish stares at the Iron Throne, see if you agree that he intends one day to rule, even if it’s over the ashes.

      VARYS: (to Baelish) When you imagine yourself up there, how do you look? Does the crown fit? Do all the Lords and Ladies simper and bow? The ones who sneered at you for years?

      BAELISH: It’s hard for them to simper and bow, without heads.

      VARYS: A man with great ambition and no morals. I wouldn’t bet against you.

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    104. Thronetender,
      It’s hard for them to simper and bow, without heads

      That’s not a rational person speaking… 🙂 I think that points to his madness. I agree he thinks he wants the Throne, or wants to take the Throne from others. But Littlefinger is incapable of leaving the machinations of the former system intact for that to come to pass. He’s smart enough, patient enough even… but Nero will fiddle while Rome burns, and still call it a win. Crazy… smart, focused and crazy… he’d be perfectly happy sitting on the Iron Throne surrounded by White Walkers…

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    105. Wimsey: Ooh, that is a damn good question that I had not considered.I suppose that it depends on how much the Others blame the Children for any lapse in whatever agreement happened, or fi they deem the “main server” as an important target.I think I had assumed that the main Walker host would have swept south of there, and although the area might surrounded by rogue wights (I certainly would not bet on anyone making it alive to the Wall from there), that would be it.On the other hand: now that you mention it, it certainly looks like they were stockpiling wights outside of the the Children Server, haven’t they?Has that been some sort of long-term blockade?Or some sort of “ready in case we need it” attack force?

      What this also raises asking is, why does R’hllor not recognize (or instruct its servants) that the Children are working against the Walkers?heh, is it possible that R’hllor is what became of Azor Ahai, and that the truth is that the Children, Walkers, Giants and First Men stabbed him in the back or sacrificed him in some way with some agreement aeons ago?

      Jon, Bran, Daeny, etc., are stumbling into things much bigger than they realized, obviously.However, this also makes me wonder about Sansa’s particular role.She was the one character that got most badly burned by buying the fairy tales in her life.Has her having learned the hardway that the fairy tales are all propaganda going to get her to ask some important question at some point?

      Riddles in the dark!

      I think that R’hllor is the other side of that bargain with the WW 10,000 years ago. There was some type of violation , we don’t know what that is, and the current characters are paying for something they have no clue about at all.

      Either way the current characters are being used as pawns of this upper level game.

      You are right about Sansa learning the hard lessons about the fairytale stuff. ASOIAF is all about the grey. We don’t know the whole story about the WW. The victors wrote the tale of how awesome they were and how evil the WW were back 10,000 years ago.

      *fingers crossed*

      Maybe we will get something in TWOW and ADOS. It would be nice to know what is the point of the clash between WW and R’hllor in the story. Why now?

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    106. Angela,

      I’m not sure if the God and their reps are really that much in control. AH is just a name a certain religion has given to a hero and events in the past. The old gods also aren’t gods. They are instead a life force taped into by the greenseers and the childre – a kinda pan theistic collect consciousness.. It’s as they say of the seven each God reresenting a different facet of a unity. Alone the just reresenting a piece of the puzzle. What is needed is unity and balance.
      Perhaps the white walkers we’d to be released rather than destroyed. Kinda like Lyra in His Dark Materials releasing the dead back into the cycle of life.

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    107. Simon,

      I agree with this ..

      I can see the WW are bad guys when they kill people and rise them as undead army and change children into a ice demon…and bringing the winter which is not suitable for humans to survive.

      Not because what victors wrote about them…

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    108. ladywolfsbane: That’s not a rational person speaking… I think that points to his madness. I agree he thinks he wants the Throne, or wants to take the Throne from others.

      The original question was, “What is LF’s end-game; what does he ultimately want?” The answer to THAT question is that he does want the throne coupled with revenge for all slights to him, real or imagined. I agree, he is crazed, especially by today’s standards. But that’s an answer to a different question.

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    109. Nymeria Warrior Queen:Does your hubris know no bounds?

      There is absolutely no hubris involved. I deliberately write in syllogisms at all times in order to avoid “nonsense.”

      Nymeria Warrior Queen:To try and turn what I’ve said many times into I think the Northerners have been preparing for this, or waiting for it, is utter nonsense.

      If you have not been one of the people posting that Jon would find some people who did not meet this claim with derision, then I am confusing you with other posters. (I identify posters by their icons, not by their names as there are too many names here for me to remember: those of you that don’t have icons get blurred together.)

      But if you are like me in thinking that nobody is going to take Jon’s claim of White Walkers returning seriously, then why are we even having this conversation?

      Nymeria Warrior Queen:I have no interest in continuing to go round and round with you, given you are either incapable of understanding what I’ve set forth in plain English, or, more likely, you are choosing to play dense.

      I will occasionally play devils advocate, but I deliberately play dense about as often as I write nonsense, which is to say: I never do that.

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    110. Angela: Maybe we will get something in TWOW and ADOS. It would be nice to know what is the point of the clash between WW and R’hllor in the story. Why now?

      Hence my somewhat outlandish conjecture that, somehow, some “essence” of Azor Ahai became R’hllor after words. (Insofar as I know, I’ve never read that; however, I would have thought that every idea possible had been posted at this point, so I probably have reinvented a wheel… again!)

      My guess is that when Jon, Daeny, Bran, etc., unravel why the Walkers are back and why R’hllor lumps everything not-R’hllor with them, then we will have a very clear idea of what happened. Hopefully it won’t be as opaque as the Emperor’s explanation for how Anakin Skywalker came into being…..

      dragonbringer: I can see the WW are bad guys when they kill people and rise them as undead army and change children into a ice demon…and bringing the winter which is not suitable for humans to survive.

      I.e., basically what humans are doing to a huge proportion of other species on our planet! This parallel might well be deliberate.

      Simon: I’m not sure if the God and their reps are really that much in control.

      They definitely are not in “control”: they have to use human reps to get things done. Moreover, they typically do it ineffectually: the Old Gods whisper to people through trees and R’hllor gives people pieces of larger puzzles through sometimes abstract visions in flames. R’hllor can grant greater power (and it might be tied to larger things that humans call “magic”): but it seems to be rare and, well, “miraculous.”

      As to whether they are really “gods,” well, humans have always called things greater than themselves “gods.” In a way, we are no different from social animals that come to view humans as “alpha” members of the same species. (The reason why we can keep cats, dogs, primates, etc., is that your cat, dog, etc., views you as a mega-cat, mega-dog, etc., who miraculously provides food, water, clean litter boxes, etc. )

      Now, is R’hllor like Yaweh/Allah, Zeus/Jupiter, Odin/Wodin, etc? Probably not: R’hllor does not seem to be omnipotent or omniscient. However, R’hllor does seem to be much more powerful and much more knowing than any human is: and “knowing a lot” and “being able to do a lot” both look impressive next to ignorant and impotent.

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    111. Wimsey,

      Nymeria Warrior Queen

      Will you both please knock it off, or get a room?

      These threads are becoming overrun with the same tiresome arguments. If you don’t wanna engage with each other then don’t. I’m pretty sure most of us here have come here for healthy discussion/debate/insights and not these endless argument from the same handful of people- every single time. Rant over! 🙂

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    112. Simon:
      Angela,

      I’m not sure if the God and their reps are really that much in control. AH is just a name a certain religion has given to a hero and events in the past. The old gods also aren’t gods. They are instead a life force taped into by the greenseers and the childre – a kinda pan theistic collect consciousness.. It’s as they say of the seven each God reresenting a different facet of a unity. Alone the just reresenting a piece of the puzzle. What is needed is unity and balance.
      Perhaps the white walkers we’d to be released rather than destroyed. Kinda like Lyra in His Dark Materials releasing the dead back into the cycle of life.

      That could be a possibility. The WW are a counterpoint to something else. Maybe dragons? We have so little info about them. We don’t know everything about them. As I posted yesterday, hopefully we will get some idea in the final books.

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    113. Wimsey: Hence my somewhat outlandish conjecture that, somehow, some “essence” of Azor Ahai became R’hllor after words.(Insofar as I know, I’ve never read that; however, I would have thought that every idea possible had been posted at this point, so I probably have reinvented a wheel… again!)

      My guess is that when Jon, Daeny, Bran, etc., unravel why the Walkers are back and why R’hllor lumps everything not-R’hllor with them, then we will have a very clear idea of what happened.Hopefully it won’t be as opaque as the Emperor’s explanation for how Anakin Skywalker came into being…..

      That is interesting.

      A theory of what might of happened 10,000 years ago (Total speculation here because we have no idea)

      One side: AA, COTF, First Men and their allies

      Other side: WW and their allies

      War ensues and there is a negotiation for peace terms. I have listed the sides for the bargaining table.

      They are having their peace talks. As you posted yesterday there is a betrayal by the COTF. Maybe COTF and their allies overheard AA plans for the world after the peace talks are done. The COTF didn’t like that plan and as you said betrayed AA. So they killed AA to stop him and he became R’hllor in the afterlife. Now, R’hllor is back and wants to get revenge. He is going to use R’hllor followers to bring him back into world to finish out the job.

      Whatever R’hllor wants to do with the world is not going to be a good thing. Maybe the COTF found this out during the peace talks. They killed AA and put the Wall up to keep the WW out. Thus, stopping the two forces that would destroy the world.

      This is probably completely wrong. Complete out there speculation about an event that happened long before the book series. The Long Night fairytale that has been told for generations is not the whole truth. There are missing elements left out to tell a heroic story.

      As we all know, GRRM likes to unmask those stories as lies. They were told to keep everything in one piece. The characters like Sansa and Jon are now learning the truth about how complicated things are in the real world.

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    114. Apollo,

      I just saw this, and, um, excuse me, but when someone misrepresents what I’ve clearly stated, and tries to argue from that misrepresentation, I’m going to correct it. I realize it’s grown tiresome, which is why I tried to end it.

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