Possible publication news for The Winds of Winter

Los Siete Reinos has a potentially BIG scoop about the publication date for the long awaited sixth novel in the A Song of Ice and Fire series–The Winds of Winter.  An editor for Ediciones Gigamesh, the small Spanish publisher who owns the rights to the books, said during an interview with Catalan radio station El Mon a RAC1  (El Mon meaning The World) that he knows when the book will come out.  The article also has some speculation about new possible locations in Catalonia for Season 6 shooting.

More after the jump!

Alejo Cuervo, editor for Ediciones Gigamesh who also happens to know George R. R. Martin personally, had the following exchange with an interviewer on El Mon a RAC1 radio station (link to download actual interview here, but warning, it’s a big file):

Radio Host:  The sixth book will be?

Cuervo:  It is expected next year

Radio Host:  In English, but in Spanish when will it be?

Cuervo:  We have been promised the manuscript in advance of the release in English which we will translate, there won’t be a big difference.*

Radio Host:  But you are equally sure it will be next year?

Cuervo:  Well, let’s see, confident…but a meteor could fall

Also from El Mon a RAC1, there is speculation that Season 6 shooting will also occur in two new locations.  Los Siete Reinos is saying GoT filming will occur near and around Montgrí Castle (image at top) and the village of Besalú (image below) both of which are in the beautiful Costa Brava area along the Mediterranean.  Rumor has it that both locations will be used for exterior shots without people similar to what they did last year when they used the Roman bridge in Córdoba, Spain (which you may recall was used for some incredible VFX effects and resulted in the Long Bridge of Volantis).

Are you as excited as I am about the release of TWOW? Well, you’re here so the answer is probably yes. In regards to the two new locations, do you think they’ll be pure exteriors or are we in for some more amazing VFX? What book locations could they be a stand in for?

*PS:  The Google translation of the Los Siete Reinos article is pretty poor.  This is my own translation (and yes, I speak Spanish but I’m rusty).  So you Spanish and Catalan speakers will certainly want to weigh in.

239 responses

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    1. Well it’s about goddamn time!
      As King Robert Baratheon 1st of his name would say, pre-order me a copy before I piss myself

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    2. Urm how is next year a BIG scoop, I though we new that, its not very specific !

      That will give GRRM 2 years to get ADOS out before season 8 humm will he make it, i suspect he will write the last one faster but it would be tight !

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    3. I kinda hope it comes out before Season 6 just so I can get my ASoIaF/GoT fix early. I’m dying over here.

      On the other hand, I kinda hope it doesn’t because I know some people will do everything in their power to spoil what happens for Unsullied.

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    4. dothrakian raven:
      Wun Wun

      By the old Gods and the new, thank you!!! I know I am going to be hated for it, but I am really sort of tired of the race to post the first *name that shall not be named by me*. Inevitably people continue to post again and again 2nd post, 5th post or even farther down the page. *sigh* Sorry for ragging, but this has been bothering me for years now. 🙂

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    5. Well, I was already expecting it to come out sometime next year, so it’s not a huge deal (now “Q1 next year”, that would be a huge deal :P). Having said that, it’s extremely nice to be getting official scoops on the release date, at long last. The wheels are truly and observably in motion now!

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    6. Wow, very excited. Some of the things that I’ve seen George say over the past few months made me think that 2016 was quite likely. I don’t have any to hand, but I just ad a feeling.

      having said that, I just have a feeling that we won’t get it until after Season 6. I don’t know why. just a feeling. I’m sure they’ll want it out before, but I just don’t think he will have finished quite in time. Hopefully I’m wrong.

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    7. Jeb,

      Well, yes indeed. He wrote on his “Not A Blog” that when he was in NY about a month ago, he was going to a family wedding, going to a GOT themed baseball game and meeting with his publishers and editors.

      I took that as a very good sign indeed. It would be nothing to be trolled by GRRM, giving a snippet of information and then leaving the rest to guesswork.

      If I had to say now…I am also guessing next year. I would LOVE it if the book came out before season 6 started, but I will take it whenever it comes out. *color me happy*

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    8. I refuse to get excited until I know for sure it isn’t a false alarm and we get an official publication date; too many past disappointments. But it is intriguing and hopeful for GRRM’s progress if the speaker confident it will be published next year knows him personally.

      The village of Besalú looks absolutely stunning. I can see them using that bridge for a composite VFX establishing shot of a new city. Oldtown or–wishful thinking–Highgarden or Casterly Rock?

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    9. As a spanish speaker I say your translation is perfect. the only thing I could say is that Gigamesh is not a small publisher. Is the biggest sci-fi and fantasy publisher in Spain. 🙂 other than that…I’m really excited!

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    10. Definitely coming out before the show starts.

      Also, I think there will be so much material inside TWOW that it will take 2 seasons to cover it.

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    11. Wait…. what’s that I see?
      Gazes deeper into the “Fires of the Red Priestess”….. ohhh I see an “angry typewriter” post over at NAB in our future and then something about the New York Jets.

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    12. Fantastic news, as long as we don’t in fact suffer an intergalactic disaster. I was worried he’d lost the love and inspiration, which does happen when projects drag on. I’ve experienced it myself many times when trying to write journal articles! Happening right now in fact. God, even thinking about going back to that manuscript makes me feel ill.

      By the way Dame Pasty and Sue, my problem with subscribing to replies/posts and emailing the site is fixed now that I’ve started using my gmail account. I think your server just doesn’t like yahoo addresses; it may be a hint that they’re super uncool and I should get with the times! I remember that someone was complaining a few posts back about not getting credit for a scoop that he/she said they emailed you about. You never received the email and found the info independently – perhaps the poster has the same problem but is unaware that the emails won’t be going through.

      Just thought I’d let you know. Thanks again for the great site and everyone’s hard work, glad I can officially subscribe!

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    13. I also assumed GRRM has had WoW completed for some time now because of all the appearances of late. When he started cancelling conventions last summer I (like the fool that I am) believed he was in the home stretch and wanted to crank it out.

      The wait is now on the editor and publisher I hope. And I pray to the 7 that they are workaholics and realize the huge payday that awaits them when the son of Kong hits the streets

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    14. The Christian Post also reported that Martin said the book will be ready in the spring. The Polish translator of the novels reportedly said he’s expecting his copy this winter. So this seems like another confirmation.

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    15. darksianna,
      Okay, thanks for the feedback on the translation. The only reason I mentioned that Gigamesh is small, because the article kind of says that it is…they’ve managed to maintain the rights to ASOIAF against “larger” publishers. But it may be a matter of degrees. Perhaps he’s smaller than some and larger than others?

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    16. Kezzolt:
      That will give GRRM 2 years to get ADOS out before season 8 humm will he make it, i suspect he will write the last one faster but it would be tight !

      It wouldn’t be tight, because there’s no way GRRM could write the last novel in 2 years (and, in any event, he’d have to spend time doing a book tour, which he never does any writing during).

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    17. mau:
      Making the 8,

      His USA editor Anne Groell said that she doesn’t know how many pages GRRM has done.

      I don’t know why we should think that editor from Spain can have this information.

      …..and Jon Snow is dead. As P. T. Barnum said…….

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    18. Making the 8:

      And I pray to the 7 that they are workaholics

      Making the 8:
      The wait is now on the editor and publisher I hope. And I pray to the 7 that they are workaholics …

      No fear on that score. Anne Groell managed to spend an entire week editing ADWD when the manuscript was delivered. Good thing she is a master editor — ADWD could have sucked.

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    19. JCDavis,

      Harmless fun. Almost charming, in a sense. Consider the “hodor-ing” a team building exercise. It might even be more fun when we find out what the word actually means. 😉

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    20. I don’t care if it’s two hours before the season premiere, there is no way George is going to let D&D reveal Jon’s parentage before he can. It’s bad enough they’re going to finish the series before him, I have faith and I’m sure that’s what is pushing him extra hard is to not let his central mystery be exposed before he can expose it.

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    21. mau,

      I’m aware but I choose to take the “hope for the best, prepare for the worst approach”. This often leaves me well prepared for frustration but able to shrug it off.
      Do you have any good suggestions for new reading material while I wait for this tome to surface? I had a patient at work today suggest the wildcard series

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    22. I expected it this year, so I’m ahead of you lot!

      Don Diego Decordova,

      Don Diego! Lol. That’s not going to happen. He’s busy writing. And you said NFL is up next so he cannot waist energy on angry typewriter posts. (Hopefully). Wonder what his Brit publisher is tweeting…

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    23. Making the 8:
      mau,

      I’m aware but I choose to take the “hope for the best, prepare for the worst approach”.

      When it comes to GRRM, I have “expect the worst, be surprised with the best” approach.

      Do you have any good suggestions for new reading material while I wait for this tome to surface?

      From GRRM?

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    24. mau,

      I don’t think it’s much of a mystery, but can’t confirm it until he does so, and that being said he refers to it as the central mystery, which is what I was personally referring to. It obviously holds a lot of importance to him in-general.

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    25. Jon Snowpenhauer,

      I’ve long subscribed to the opinion that there will be eight books. Who knows, maybe he’ll finish this book earlier than he was planning so he can get the book out before Season 6…

      …Hey who am I kidding. We all know that wherever he finishes the book won’t be as far as he planned whether or not the book is published in 2016, 2017 or 2018. He might be a terrific writer, but he’s shocking at predicting things that he ultimately has control for (number of books, writing speed),.

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    26. They should do a daily countdown to the winter solstice with detailed pictures containing hidden clues from each prominent family of Westeros where the final day reveals the long awaited news that…………….

      Damn, they did get me last year with that wankfest

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    27. Not even the quarter of 2016? Cmon, some journalist needs to ask that editor another directed question or two!

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    28. Am I the only one who would rather have the book come out after season six? I’ve noticed when people read the books right before they watch a television/film adaptation, there is a very large portion that does not want to see an adaptation but instead would like every scene shown verbatim. It creates a lot of negativity in the comments. If the release was after season six, that would give people time to digest before the seventh season and they wouldn’t be as biased towards the sixth.

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    29. I don’t want it released before Season 6. Less book snob grumbling & I like the feeling of not knowing what’s coming next.

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    30. Making the 8,

      “Sorry. Not true. Look, I’ve said before, and I will say again, I don’t play games with news about the books. I know how many people are waiting, how long they have been waiting, how anxious they are. I am still working on WINDS. When it’s done, I will announce it here. There won’t be any clues to decipher, any codes or hidden meanings, the announcement will be straightforward and to the point. I won’t time it to coincide with Xmas or Valentine’s Day or Lincoln’s Birthday, the book will not rise from the dead with Jesus on Easter Sunday. When it is done, I will say that’s it is done, on whatever day I happen to finish.”

      http://grrm.livejournal.com/tag/the%20winds%20of%20winter

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    31. Did WOTW really scoop EW and Westeros on the book timing? I, for one, will closely be watching GRRM’s Not a Blog.

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    32. I’ve been postponing my binge re-read of the whole series for TWOW for 2 years now.
      I’ll never believe their lies.
      GRRM is still probably sitting on his arse writing a paragraph a day

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    33. This news isn’t coming from GRRM, so I don’t really count what that was in reference to as the same as this. An editor making a comment on how it looks like it will be soon isn’t the same as people attempting to decipher when it’s coming out via something he said or is doing.

      The editor didn’t say it was done, right? He just said we’re getting close, and when it was done he would be getting to edit it around the same time as US/UK versions so it would be out around the same time.

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    34. Interesting to go back over BryndenBFish’s analysis on this site back in March.
      His Predictions:
      Super-Pessimistic: Early-to-mid 2019
      Highly-optimistic: Jan to Feb 2016
      His guess: Late 2016-early 2017

      Now naturally many people commented on how writing speed is not scientific, but it is interesting to consider how fast George would have to write to get the books published before Season 6, and it is towards the optimistic end of the scale.

      Interestingly I saw an old name in the comments who was definitely one of the harder book purists who I haven’t seen since the on-season. If Season 6 does come out before Book 6 at least we won’t have to put up with the tired old arguments they used to spout. Constructive praise and criticism makes for a much more pleasant environment for the fandom.

      Article: http://watchersonthewall.com/a-scientific-guess-at-george-r-r-martins-progress-on-the-winds-of-winter/

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    35. Oh my sweet summer children. Not even George himself knows when it will be done until it’s done. He will announce a release date then. For Dance, he finished in April and the book came out in July….crazy quick.

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    36. Jeb,

      This was his post today:

      Um, I don’t want to abandon my reputation as the hypeslayer, but uh, this is kind of exciting news. Alejo Cuervo is GRRM’s Spanish publisher. I’ve heard rumblings for a while now on TWOW in 2016 (even early 2016), and I’ve been skeptical on it. I’m not saying that it’s definitely going to happen, but it’s encouraging. That’s all I’ll say. It’s encouraging!

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    37. I’m still sticking to that it will be out before the next season of the show. Hence the chapters that are released coinciding with last season and the bizarre cut away of Stanni’s death so as not to fully spoil it for the books. We shall see.

      Don’t think the locations there will be used for any new parts of Westeros. Only really Casterly Rock (which it could be at a push) and Highgarden that we really still need to see of the main parts.

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    38. Besalú looks gorgeous. I’m definitely adding that to my travels litany.

      As for The Winds of Winter, I’m not going to behold myself to hoping the book coming out before Season 6. If it does, great. If it comes out after, that works for me as well. I’d rather have it when George is fully satisfied with it, not because it’s a race before the end of March 2016.

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    39. Awesome news about TWOW!
      I won’t think about it much more than that since the news is vague and I don’t want to raise my hopes up! XD

      As for the new locations…
      Montgrí Castle could be Karhold…
      To me it has the feel of a Northern stronghold and we already know a new Lord Karstark has been cast…..

      Besalú does not speak to me as quickly though…
      If Oldtown is no longer going to be shot in Girona and is still in the series, perhaps Besalú will serve as a base for exterior Oldtown?

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    40. Cumsprite,

      You mean a-bit-crazy, looking-at-the-bright-side, hopeful people who are willing to take a leap of faith on a writer who’d let them down before with overestimating his pace but never with his actual work?!

      I LIKE THEM ALREADY!!! I know who they are too.

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    41. Tormund’s Woman:
      Cumsprite,

      You mean a-bit-crazy, looking-at-the-bright-side, hopeful people who are willing to take a leap of faith on a writer who’d let them down before with overestimating his pace but never with his actual work?!

      I LIKE THEM ALREADY!!! I know who they are too.

      Judging by their accuracy, they are probably relief pitchers in the NL Central.

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    42. Al Swearengen,

      Wouldn’t it be wonderful, Al!? I am quite curious what happens in the Vale.

      Will Robin be killed at Petyr’s hand? Will Sansa win the Vale to her side and ride to Winterfell as LF wanted it? And would Stannis really sacrifice his own daughter or will it be Mel who does it for a Jon ressurection without his knowledge? I’ve got about 100 questions that need answers!!!

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    43. Cumsprite,

      It’s not their fault really. I place the blame fully on the damn jinx someone who should know better keeps throwing at them. The same someone who thinks Dance is a doorstopper, and Martin lost control of the story as soon as he scrapped off the 5 year gap.

      Basically a good for naught nay sayer in need of a good hype who cannot admit Martin writes a good story if his life depended on it. DEPENDED ON IT.

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    44. Gwenivere,

      I used to believe this… until the whole Stannis season 5 catastrophe. As annoying as people are when they’ve read the books and critique the show based off of that, they’re even WORSE when they think the show is nothing but “fan-fiction,” even though it could still happen in a book that hasn’t been released yet.

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    45. Al Swearengen,

      The show probably forshadowed what will happen during Jaime and Bronn’s conversation about how they’d like to die. After Stannis, Jaime is the most likely main character to die in TWOW, IMO.

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    46. The Spanish editor just said that the book is expected for next year and that they will receive the manuscript in English before its published to be able to translate ASAP.

      That is the same that GRRM has said, that he hopes to have TWOW finished by 2016, of course his editors think the same. Is not official, the spanish publishing house knows as much as the fans do, which is that TWOW may be published next year, but its not a sure thing.

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    47. Al Swearengen,

      Doubtful. I think it’s just as likely that Brienne will shove Oathkeeper into LSH’s back… and sadly might die herself in the process.

      Jaime will not die until after he’s killed Cersei per Maggy’s prophecy (99% sure he will be the valonqar).

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    48. TheMannis:
      I don’t want it released before Season 6. Less book snob grumbling & I like the feeling of not knowing what’s coming next.

      There’d be significantly less book snob grumbling if the people making the show weren’t writing garbage that makes no sense 90% of the time. We can bring up how much work it is all we want (a favorite argument of some), but that doesn’t change that the final result is often nonsensical and needlessly inferior to the source material. I made a shitty edit of a scene from a movie and it was a lot of time and effort put into it. It’s still shitty though, and how hard I worked on it would not make it immune to that criticism…so why is that always the case for shows like Game of Thrones?

      ANYWAY, I suspect the book will be out somewhere around the middle or end of season 6.

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    49. 2016 lines up with his recent ~5 years turn around time. I think the real question is will it be before or after (or during!) the season air dates? The delay for AFFC and ADWD had all these reasons and what seemed like valid excuses caused by the writing process. TWOW is just a casualty of living the celebrity life. All I know is I can’t wait to get my next spoonful of the story. Even if the true king and true hero is (allegedly) dead. All hail King Stannis! Season 6 will have Ian FUCKING McShane, cover new territory, and a bonus is we may get book 6. Not to mention Clegane Bowl and Deep Wood Motte and LSH! The hype is real, the hype is real… I need to go to bed now.

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    50. forelia,

      Garbage according to who? A handful of bitter book purists and Stannis fanboys? I don’t think your opinions matter much.

      Back to Westeros.org with you.

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    51. My prediction: Season 6 will be pushed back a few weeks. Instead of first/second weekend of April, it will air end of April or even May 1st. Book will come out very shortly beforehand, maybe even just a couple weeks (April 5th or 12th perhaps).

      Prediction 2: this dude is full of sheep shift and we won’t see the book until 2017 or beyond.

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    52. I think it be really amazing and a super cool publicity move if somehow WoW is released the same day as the season 6 premier…

      Could that even happen?

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    53. Arthur,

      If the book was actually ready, they wouldn’t do that. The company would want to release it about a month before the season, to get people stampeding to read it before the show debuted.

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    54. Arthur,

      Books are typically released on Tuesday, though there have been notable exceptions (Harry Potter books). I would think HBO would view releasing the book on the same day as the premiere as mildly counterproductive, given that many book readers would probably postpone viewing the episodes until they finished the book.

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    55. Jon Snowpenhauer,

      Ok, it’s interesting that you said that because I had been scrolling through thinking why would it make a difference if it came out before or after the season because what done is done writing-wise for the most part if they are filming. But if there is going to be the big reveal about Jon’s parentage you could be right. As a writer myself I can see him not wanting his ‘baby’ birthed by someone else so to speak.

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    56. In some ways the book after the season would be better. If it’s released before I know I’ll be skim reading to find out what happens.

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    57. Robb Snow,

      I’m in a weird position where I actually don’t think either Jaime or Brienne are going to die in WoW (or at least not during the LS encounter, and not until close to the end of the story as a whole, if they die at all), but I *also* don’t believe Jaime is the valonqar. I look forward to the book being published to find out if I’m right.

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    58. Hooray.

      Btw, did the translated versions of past ASoI&F novels get published on the same date as the english versions? I wonder when foreign pubs get their copy for translation? After the final english version has passed the final edit or chapter-by-chapter? I would assume there must be a significant delay between english and other versions when translating 1500 pgs.

      In any case, I anticipate a notablog post at some point soon, hopefully not denying everything.

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    59. Hey mau: Don’t forget our little bet about the TWOW release date.

      Are you still going to stand your ground on 01/01/2018 or thereafter? Or are you ready to apologize for calling GRRM a lazy liar?

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    60. Robb Snow:
      forelia,

      Garbage according to who? A handful of bitter book purists and Stannis fanboys? I don’t think your opinions matter much.

      Back to Westeros.org with you.

      Way to keep it civil.

      In any case, what is with your Stannis-hate? Did it precede S5E09? Or is it because “purists” complain about D&D’s handling of the character, and you automatically feel the need to take the contrary opinion?

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    61. I will remain skeptical… just to not be disappointed if WoW doesn’t get publish next yeat… or thrilled in case I was wrong.

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    62. kit_hepburn:
      Robb Snow,

      I’m in a weird position where I actually don’t think either Jaime or Brienne are going to die in WoW (or at least not during the LS encounter, and not until close to the end of the story as a whole, if they die at all), but I *also* don’t believe Jaime is the valonqar. I look forward to the book being published to find out if I’m right.

      Alternatively, one of them could die and LSH pass on her pseudo-immortality out of regret.

      Something big is going to happen when those three characters meet, it is just hard to guess what.

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    63. LordDavos,

      It’s true. That was actually my first thought as it seem GRRM doesn’t like to make things seem so direct. My theory is Tommen. With Margaery either terminally ill (as per her coughing and looking feverish in her cell) or possibly being sentenced to death, he could very well lose it and go after his mother, if he were to find out she was behind it all. Just a theory though.

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    64. Chad Brick,

      Maybe tinfoil here so bear with me. But what if Brienne is actually the woman Jamie is speaking of when he tells Bronn he’d like to die in the arms of the woman he loves. Remember his face when he found out they were sailing past Tarth? If what you think about Jaime, Brienne and LSH ends up being true, Jaime could end up being killed and ends up dying in Brienne’s arms?

      Tin foil hats for everyone!

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    65. I may be naive but the lengthy delay between publication of A Dance of Dragons and Winds of Winter. Coinciding with Season 1 of HBO’s Game of Thrones and the beginning of Season 6, where lets be honest the epic nears the end. May have allowed George to write enough of A Dream of Spring that he can publish the final book before Season 8.

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    66. SciFiFantasyGirl,

      Noooooooooo!!! Brienne can’t watch another man she loves die!!!
      Tinfoil is evil.

      *running off to the corner to cry*

      Ok…sniffle, sniffle…better, now…

      I’m torn as to whether I want TWOW released before season 6 airs, or not. I’m really enjoying being in the dark about so much, and I’m naturally more open to possibilities if I don’t know what’s in the books. I’m pretty easy-going about differences from the books, especially if I think they work, but there’s still the inevitable thought of, “well, in the books it happened this way.” I realize it takes me out of the show for a moment, even if it’s something different I really like, and I think I want to watch without that inner voice. If the book is released before season 6, I know I won’t be able to keep myself from reading it.

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    67. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      It is definitely something that would make me cry. Brienne makes Jaime a better person. Cersei doesn’t.
      But no….GRRM wouldn’t write something so tragic and heartbreaking!
      *insert a generous amount of sarcasm*

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    68. Chad Brick,

      It’s because a lot of the people I’ve seen criticizing the show’s handling of Stannis can’t (or won’t as the case may be) connect dots or deduce obvious conclusions regarding his downfall. Everything that went down made sense and was pretty clearly laid out by the writers, but because it supposedly clashes so much with his book counterpart or peoples’ personal idea of what Stannis is supposed to be like, the way it happened suddenly doesn’t make sense, is bad writing, etc.

      It doesn’t help that a lot of the same people also love to express their opinions in the most venomous, hyperbolic, and offensive manner possible. Just like Lindaaa.

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    69. ADWD was supposed to be realesed around 1 year after AFFC. We all know how that ended.

      I’m not holding my breath until I see a realese date.

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    70. Book will come around the time when S6 airs. The main thing is here, who gets to reveal Jon Snows fate first, book or show. My money is, that GRRM will release his book a short time before the show airs.

      This will give book readers a chance to learn the answer from the books first.

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    71. Robb Snow,

      Very well said. I completly agreee.

      Some people, spend so much time, coming with theories, and thinking how a cartain characters story unfold, that they start over-analyzing, even the most pointless details, wich ther proceed to call proof.
      When they are wrong, instead of admiting they made a mistake, and re-analyze the new information we have, they start yelling and raging, calling it bad writing.

      Stannis being the proof. Over 4 years since ADWD came out, there has not been ONE theory/situation, where Stannis does not defeat the Boltons.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Mihnea:
      Robb Snow,

      Very well said. I completly agreee.

      Some people, spend so much time, coming with theories, and thinking how a cartain characters story unfold, that they start over-analyzing, even the most pointless details, wich ther proceed to call proof.
      When they are wrong, instead of admiting they made a mistake, and re-analyze the new information we have, they start yelling and raging, calling it bad writing.

      Stannis being the proof. Over 4 years since ADWD came out, there has not been ONE theory/situation, where Stannis does not defeat the Boltons.

      Yep… this is exactly what happened to LOST. People over-analyzed EVERY POSSIBLE SCENARIO and came up with a couple, early on, that they then dismissed outright because it seemed too obvious. So when what appeared most obvious turned out to be somewhat accurate (it wasn’t wholly accurate because they were wrong about a major part of it), people lost their minds and demanded it was stupid, bad story telling, and ruined the series for them (GRRM being one of them).

      Let me also note that one of the main parts of this early LOST theory ended up being COMPLETELY WRONG, but because it had a tiny fraction of a tone about it that touched on the original theory, people simply latched onto that (GRRM included) and stated outright that THE WHOLE SHOW WAS ABOUT THIS ONE THING… erroneously and stupidly, but they said it loud and passionately enough that people just accepted it as a fact.

      Interestingly enough, the foundation of the history within ASOIAF is “the people who made shit up the loudest got to write the history books.”

      So, it’s interesting that GRRM will not only likely fall victim to this… but also have been a participant in doing it to someone else.

        Quote  Reply

    73. About the foreshadowing they did with Jaime and Bronn in the show, when i watched second time Bronn’s answer didn’t seem like a question but more like “She want the same thing…” In the show Jaime is still into Cersei…so maybe it foreshadows Cersei will want to have Jaime killed….. just speculating here…. in the most show foreshadowing that came true, the characters never did what they wanted but what others told them so far….
      I don’t believe he will die before Cersei….

        Quote  Reply

    74. JCDavis,

      The easiest way to prevent this idiocy is to simply order the comments in reverse chronological order, newest on top. That way the ‘first’ posts get buried post haste, and even if someone is dumb enough to post it, hardly anybody else will have to see it.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Piotr:
      Now the question is: spring, summer, autumn or winter 2016?

      It ain’t making 2016 unless Martin’s goal to get it out before season 6 is achieved.

      So it’s 1st quarter (January to March) or bust!

        Quote  Reply

    76. Robb Snow:
      I kinda hope it comes out before Season 6 just so I can get my ASoIaF/GoT fix early. I’m dying over here.

      On the other hand, I kinda hope it doesn’t because I know some people will do everything in their power to spoil what happens for Unsullied.

      It’s difficult to keep an straight face when one of your friends is an Unsullied and go: “I started GOT last week! I love Ned and Robb! I hope the Starks destroy the Lannisters soon and Khaleesi kills everybody with her dragons!

      Ah… those sweet days… XD

        Quote  Reply

    77. thremnir,

      Besalu isn’t coastal. It’s inland. It is, however, situated by a river (the Fluvia) .

      We spend our summers in the Girona area so know the area very well, and I was thinking this year that with Girona now a major shooting location (it was incredibly exciting there with the start of filming!) it hopefully wouldn’t take too long for the showrunners to discover the other remarkable possible sites in the area – Besalu is definitely one of them. It’s a very pretty little medieval town with a lovely square, and the bridge could definitely feature as an opening establishment shot to a new location. I wonder if they might amalgamate aspects of Girona with Besalu for Oldtown… Sant Feliu, the Monastery of Sant Pere de Galligants (or even the Cathedral) for the citadel, and Besalu for the town itself.

      As for Montgri, we were also looking at this as a potential exterior location this summer. The castle looks like a smallish grey hump on top of a large, barren rock (shaped from some angles, rather oddly, to look like a naked woman lying on her back!). I can see why exterior shots would be more feasible, although the castle can be visited. It’s quite a steep hike – not friendly to large, cumbersome trucks loaded with expensive filming equipment! The wonders of CGi could coat the hillsides with snow to render it a Northern location but the actual rock itself is rather barren and scrubby – more of an Essosi feel to it really, or possibly a Dornish outpost. I can’t see how the castle itself could stand in for Casterly Rock without some very serious CGi treatment – although this could happen, obviously – the rock is certainly large and imposing enough! Alternatively, Pensicola might be used as Casterly Rock, again, with some creative CGi.

        Quote  Reply

    78. The real question here is not when the book will be ready. Is “who’s gonna die this time”? and “George will finish the 7th book”? LOL

        Quote  Reply

    79. I worked in publishing industry, so let me tell you something which may be news for some of you: a book must be written first, before it can be published. So, if the publishing industry has the same MO as it had back in my days, here’s my prediction:

      TWOW will NOT be published in 2016.

      And I stand by it. In fact, I’m going to mutilate my clitoris traditional Somali style, if I am proven wrong. That’s how sure I am.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Making the 8:
      I also assumed GRRM has had WoW completed for some time now because of all the appearances of late. When he started cancelling conventions last summer I (like the fool that I am) believed he was in the home stretch and wanted to crank it out.

      The wait is now on the editor and publisher I hope. And I pray to the 7 that they are workaholics and realize the huge payday that awaits them when the son of Kong hits the streets

      I’ll believe TWOW arrives in 2016 when I see it, but a tip to those fans who may want some confirmation: Keep an eye out for George’s publisher’s financial reports, both quarterly and especially the quarterly CEO/CFO analyst calls. Since publication of TWOW is likely to be an event that significantly affects their finances, they may give some hints as to expectation of future revenue. IIRC this is how some folks found out when Harry Potter books were likely to arrive!

        Quote  Reply

    81. mau:
      JCDavis,

      That is the most annoying thing on this site. I just can’t stand these “Hodor” posts. So childish.

      I think they’re hilarious…Different strokes for different folks!

        Quote  Reply

    82. SciFiFantasyGirl,

      I suppose it’s possible, but I don’t think I take that statement quite so literally. Or at least, not when it comes to the Stoneheart situation (which may or may not exist on the show). Maybe it happens later on, I don’t know. But I also think it would be a little silly to have Jaime die in Brienne’s arms when it’s already happened once with another man she’s just avenged. It would be a little visually repetitive on the show at least. And I do think, contrary to his reputation for killing characters off unexpectedly, that GRRM is telling actual full *stories* about these people, and try as I might, I can’t see how Jaime or Brienne dying at the hands of Stoneheart makes a full story given their character development. I mean, not as much as Jon dying for good doesn’t make sense, but similar. If anyone is nearing the end of their dramatic arc, it’s Cersei, but even she might be kept around for dramatic effect. I guess we’ll all see if the damn book comes out! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    83. I just read the “news” (rumor…) on the website of Belgium’s most esteemed newspaper – never ceases to amaze me how deeply ASoIaF/GOT has pervaded popular culture.

      Ross:
      I cannot begin to imagine the horror of translating an epic GRRM novel under intense time pressure (as they will be).

      If they give me an advance copy for translation, I’ll happily do my very best. I’ll even go as far as learning an entirely new language – whichever one they need!

        Quote  Reply

    84. I still remember when DwD was going to come out in 2006. Good times, good times.

      Hope this is true, but not going to get too excited until it’s actually in my hands. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    85. Mihnea:
      Robb Snow,

      Stannis being the proof. Over 4 years since ADWD came out, there has not been ONE theory/situation, where Stannis does not defeat the Boltons.

      Really? I can think of at least two that I have seen a number of times. One is the idea that Ramsay has led the primary Bolton forces out behind the Frey / Manderley forces that will initially engage Stannis. In this scenario, Stannis wins the first wave as expected, only to get attacked a second time and lose. The second idea is that Ramsay himself might be hiding among Stannis’s northern allies (perhaps as a Karstark), and could attempt an assassination on Stannis. This fits in well with the Ramsay we know and love from ACOK.

      Of course, there are plenty of possibilities for third party intervention that knocks Stannis off the hill shortly after he attains it (Northmen, Wildlings, Others, the Vale forces, etc) but these would not meet your criteria.

      Prior to S5, most people were expecting Stannis to win the Battle of the Snow’s first round at minimum. Now it is less clear, but it is still likely he will win before he loses. Either way, Book Stannis is not the incompetent boob of the last few episodes, nor is it likely that he would sacrifice his daughter.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Chad Brick,

      Just like I said in another thread, this is a FAN-SITE mostly dedicated to the show. If you hate the changes they did so much, why don’t you go too a site dedicated to disscussing the BOOKS?

      Why do you feel the need to come here and remind us how much you hate the show?

      I watched The walking Dead. I strongly dissagreed with the direction the story went. But I sopped posting on WD FAN-SITE’s.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Robb Snow: It’s because a lot of the people I’ve seen criticizing the show’s handling of Stannis can’t (or won’t as the case may be) connect dots or deduce obvious conclusions regarding his downfall. Everything that went down made sense and was pretty clearly laid out by the writers

      If it “made sense” then essentially everyone should be in agreement as to why R’hllor abandoned Stannis, why Stannis sacrificed his daughter, why he failed at basic military tactics, why the sellswords ran off, and why he chose to suicide himself and his troops. And you should also be able to explain the Jet-Packing, Insta-Melt Snow, BrienneGPS, Moletown WallMart, etc. You seem to have an exceptionally high bar for something to qualify as nonsense if that mess doesn’t.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Chad Brick,

      Chad Brick:

      Book Stannis is not the incompetent boob of the last few episodes, nor is it likely that he would sacrifice his daughter.

      So what? It’s a story, a TV-SHOW, if you don’t like the direction the story goes, then stop watching it. But you take these changes as personal insults. What does is metter Stannis burn his duaghter? He is a fictional character, none of what happens will metter anyway. Stannis is dead, and will die in the books. Same with Shireen and Selyse.

      Why does your, every post have to be about, how better the books are? Or how they ”butchered” a character? Again this is a site for disscussing the show, not the books.
      There are sites, dedicated to disscussing the books, where you can talk with like minded people, about the storylines you enjoy.

      But is there really a point of coming here, and on every post you make, only disscuss, how much better the books are, besides a petty anger, about a TV-SHOW making changes, to some books?

        Quote  Reply

    89. Chad Brick,

      Chad Brick:

      And you should also be able to explain the Jet-Packing, Insta-Melt Snow, BrienneGPS, Moletown WallMart, etc. You seem to have an exceptionally high bar for something to qualify as nonsense if that mess doesn’t.

      It doesn’t bother him. It doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother 19 million people who watch this show.

      But why, does it bother YOU, that this doesn’t bother him.?

        Quote  Reply

    90. Chad Brick: If it “made sense” then essentially everyone should be in agreement as to why R’hllor abandoned Stannis, why Stannis sacrificed his daughter, why he failed at basic military tactics, why the sellswords ran off, and why he chose to suicide himself and his troops. And you should also be able to explain the Jet-Packing, Insta-Melt Snow, BrienneGPS, Moletown WallMart, etc. You seem to have an exceptionally high bar for something to qualify as nonsense if that mess doesn’t.

      Everybody and there mother should’ve known that Melisandre suddenly had a lot of attention towards Jon Snow, she started to see something there. Showwatchers should’ve started doubting Melisandre’s choice on who to back there. We also know that Melisandre is a hack who uses potions and powders to make illusions half of the time.

      Why Stannis sacrificed his daughter? Because he couldn’t go forward and he couldn’t go back, he was desparate, in the belief there was only one way out and in some way, he believed “Kingsblood” worked for him before and it does, the snow begins to melt. And when snow melts, that makes travelling a lot easier, especially by yourself as opposed to an army, which is why Mel might’ve reached Castle Black in the pace in which she did, also as in the books, timelines aren’t necessarily chronologically perfect in the show.

      Can’t belief you throw in the sellswords leaving as hard to understand. They fight to live, they aren’t going to stick on what may turn out to be a suicide march through the harshest weather.

      Mole Town-Wallmart is in the books bro! Sam purchases granate stones there for Longclaw’s handle refurbishing! Have you even read the books?!

        Quote  Reply

    91. I just hope that when TWOW comes out- whenever it comes out- is a good book and not just thrown together. I think GRRM has accepted the idea that Season 6 may spoil the parentage of JS ( because we really don’t know yet) and knows that he should have been working on this book a long time ago and not have taken a break from writing it.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Fat Wall-duh,

      This is my hope too. That he takes his time, to write a good book, we know he can: ASOS was one of the best fantasy book’s I ever read.
      Him hurrying to get TWOW fast, just to get it before the show, is in my opinion, a very bad idea.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Ser Oromis Locke: Everybody and there mother should’ve known that Melisandre suddenly had a lot of attention towards Jon Snow, she started to see something there. Showwatchers should’ve started doubting Melisandre’s choice on who to back there. We also know that Melisandre is a hack who uses potions and powders to make illusions half of the time.

      Why Stannis sacrificed his daughter? Because he couldn’t go forward and he couldn’t go back, he was desparate, in the belief there was only one way out and in some way, he believed “Kingsblood” worked for him before and it does, the snow begins to melt. And when snow melts, that makes travelling a lot easier, especially by yourself as opposed to an army, which is why Mel might’ve reached Castle Black in the pace in which she did, also as in the books, timelines aren’t necessarily chronologically perfect in the show.

      Can’t belief you throw in the sellswords leaving as hard to understand. They fight to live, they aren’t going to stick on what may turn out to be a suicide march through the harshest weather.

      Mole Town-Wallmart is in the books bro! Sam purchases granate stones there for Longclaw’s handle refurbishing! Have you even read the books?!

      And we (readers) also know that Mel uses real magic the other half the time. The Red God is real and Stannis has little reason to doubt this in the show (ahem, Chekhov’s Third Leech) and none in the books. In both media, Stannis with good reason believes he is the world’s savior. He is not a zealot in either media either but even more so in the books, where he actually has only sacrificed murderers, traitors, and cannibals, and even then in large part due to the wishes of his men, his wife, and/or Mel.

      You missed the point of the question as to why TV-Stannis sacrificed Shireen. The answer is not “to get something” but to get what. If you go back and read unsullied reviews of S5E09, the answer they almost universally gave (if any) was that he killed his daughter in pursuit of the throne, even though this is idiotic as he would no longer have an heir to pass it to. This is precisely because D&D underplayed the Stannis-as-Azor-Ahai angle to the point that the lay audience largely missed it. Hence, their interpretation of Stannis’s behavior was almost universally stupid AND evil, when it was neither. Heck, I see a lot of book readers interpreting his actions as such, as the show made it unclear.

      As for snow. I happen to be going on a hiking trip tomorrow in Japan’s northern alps. When I was reserving my mat at the mountain hut, I noticed on their web page that just last week the trail became clear of snow. It’s September. Do you realize how long deep snow takes to melt? Not hours. Not days. Not even weeks. MONTHS, including months where there wasn’t a day below 90F in the lowlands. Yet on TV, it just disappeared in an instant. This kind of thing just jumps right out at me when I see it, good show or bad.

      As for the Moletown Wallmart, a small town of a few hundred having a mason or blacksmith does not imply they would have anything that would meaningfully support an army of thousands. An army like Stannis’s would eat tons of grain per day. It was bad enough when they hung out at the Wall forever despite the implausibility of their being that kind of food there. Going back to get more? Even more ridiculous. Doubly so since the Watch is like 1/10th the size on TV as it is on the show, and would have correspondingly less to share. Obviously, this was a hook to get rid of Davos, but it was clunky as hell.

      As for the sell-swords, I’ve seen two basic arguments. One is that they ran off because Stannis was a meany and killed his daughter. Why this would be so offensive as to scare off men who murder for a living is beyond me. The other is the one you gave, that they ran off to avoid a losing cause. Yet it wasn’t a losing cause until they ran off, and they just witnessed an impressive display of Divine Power. The timing doesn’t make a lot of sense and this argument seems rather circular. Either way, the reasons are ambiguous at best, yet Robb declared all this “made sense”, which is what I was disputing.

        Quote  Reply

    94. As for snow. I happen to be going on a hiking trip tomorrow in Japan’s northern alps. When I was reserving my mat at the mountain hut, I noticed on their web page that just last week the trail became clear of snow. It’s September. Do you realize how long deep snow takes to melt? Not hours. Not days. Not even weeks. MONTHS, including months where there wasn’t a day below 90F in the lowlands. Yet on TV, it just disappeared in an instant. This kind of thing just jumps right out at me when I see it, good show or bad.

      Yeah, that is why I assume Shireen’s sacrifice in the show was successful. The Red God or whatever entity / force / energy / consciousness behind it heard and melt the snows. It was what was asked of him, after all…

        Quote  Reply

    95. Gwenivere,

      Even If the book, comes out in 2016, I’ll only buy it, after the show is done. And even then, only after reading some reviews. Got fooled once with AFFC, where I ignored the overwhelming bad reviews it got. Not going too happen again.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Excellent news! I am setting my clock to December 31st, 2016, which is probably when the next book will be released.

        Quote  Reply

    97. One thing about it all those non disclosure agreements the cast signed , they really work the buzz hype for George.
      It probably would not matter , but I’ll bet that even if he has finished he’s not going to let on until after the first of the year. Fan frenzy for teasing out spoilers about Winds of Winter from ‘sneaky peaks’ from S6 production spin the cash dials at Bantam and in George’s Brain.

      Another sign, check to see if he goes to the World Fantasy Convention in November.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Chad Brick:

      As for the sell-swords, I’ve seen two basic arguments. One is that they ran off because Stannis was a meany and killed his daughter. Why this would be so offensive as to scare off men who murder for a living is beyond me. The other is the one you gave, that they ran off to avoid a losing cause. Yet it wasn’t a losing cause until they ran off, and they just witnessed an impressive display of Divine Power. The timing doesn’t make a lot of sense and this argument seems rather circular. Either way, the reasons are ambiguous at best, yet Robb declared all this “made sense”, which is what I was disputing.

      Even if you are a man who kills for money, watching your employer burn his own daughter alive will be all types of crazy. I probably would have left too.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Nice news, but the publisher might now be looking for another translator. If the person can’t keep quite at this time they can’t be trusted to keep quite on plot details while they are translating.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Jeb:
      Making the 8,

      “Sorry.Not true.Look, I’ve said before, and I will say again, I don’t play games with news about the books.I know how many people are waiting, how long they have been waiting, how anxious they are. I am still working on WINDS.When it’s done, I will announce it here.There won’t be any clues to decipher, any codes or hidden meanings, the announcement will be straightforward and to the point.I won’t time it to coincide with Xmas or Valentine’s Day or Lincoln’s Birthday, the book will not rise from the dead with Jesus on Easter Sunday.When it is done, I will say that’s it is done, on whatever day I happen to finish.”

      http://grrm.livejournal.com/tag/the%20winds%20of%20winter

      I read NAB pretty much everyday and I have seen no retraction, like is written above. The link takes you to an older post and ones that get much older as one scrolls down.

      I will spend time to really look harder after WotW updates….but I didn’t see it.

        Quote  Reply

    101. Well Mr Bradley, Ms Murray and Mr Stroma should be staying in Girona by now, along with the actors portraying Ma, Pa and Sis Tarly; therefore time for the little birdies to take flight. Surprised we haven’t had airport sightings yet.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Chad Brick: If it “made sense” then essentially everyone should be in agreement as to why R’hllor abandoned Stannis, why Stannis sacrificed his daughter, why he failed at basic military tactics, why the sellswords ran off, and why he chose to suicide himself and his troops. And you should also be able to explain the Jet-Packing, Insta-Melt Snow, BrienneGPS, Moletown WallMart, etc. You seem to have an exceptionally high bar for something to qualify as nonsense if that mess doesn’t.

      If disagreement alone means bad lit/show/whatever, then Hamlet is very badly written.

      ita Stannis burning Shireen was awful, not because Stannis wouldn’t burn his daughter–he might, if desperate enough–but because it was rushed. Had it not been rushed, the show could have risen to Greek tragedy, as the setup is there:

      1. R’hllor was never with Stannis. This is in both books and show.
      2. As I said, Stannis would burn Shireen, but under the right circumstances, the same way he would burn Edric/Gendry. Again, books and show make that clear.
      3. Sellswords leave him, as he’s no longer trustworthy. I think they worry about his ability to fight after what he did to his daughter.
      4. They’re right to run, as Stannis’s lousy military tactics=suicide (which you note). His wife commits suicide outright, but has the decency to do it alone. Stannis takes his men with him.

      Again, this could have been incredible, had the show not rushed through it. For that, I blame the show.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Question? Why would Maggie the Frog, who is telling Cersie’s future, tell her about a Valonqar that is meant to be about someone else?

      That makes no sense to me. The Valonqar has to be somehow related to Cersie’s future. I am going with the low hanging fruit and saying that Jamie does kill her (heaven knows she has pushed him enough) and then himself.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Maria,
      I think that a lot of people forget that Stannis’ was only one of the many arcs in this story. And Stannis fans are forgetting that he was not, and was never intended to be, its hero.

      D & D clearly wanted to end the Stannis arc in S5 because 1. it probably ends soon in the books as well; 2. they wanted to free up time for Euron and the Northern Conspiracy in S6 (and let’s hope that at least the NC gets somewhere). This means that they needed to rush things a bit.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Those new sites are lovely, can’t wait to see how the show runners will use them.

      Re the news about the book. I was conflicted about book first or show first for about 5 minutes. I’ve had it both ways. Watched the first 4 seasons as an unsullied and enjoyed all the surprise twists and turns. Then watched season 5 after reading the books and knew what was coming, sort of. I liked it both ways. Now I’ve concluded I’m just going to take the book release as it comes. If it comes out before season 6 starts I’ll read it, if not, I’ll still read it after. There’s not a whole lot we as fans can do about it anyway except take it as it comes.

        Quote  Reply

    106. JCDavis,

      Rebuttal: Why would Maggie the Frog, who is specifically giving Cersei only three questions to be answered, randomly tell her about her death at the hands of one of her brothers when Cersei asked her about her children, not her death. All of Maggie’s other answers are super focused on what Cersei asked, only elaborating in a way that is still specifically related to the question posed. Conclusion? Cersei’s death is directly connected to her kids (since that is what the question was about), not her brothers. With that in mind, reread the prophecy and tell me who it sounds like the valonqar is. It’s not Tyrion or Jaime.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Chad Brick: And we (readers) also know that Mel uses real magic the other half the time. The Red God is real and Stannis has little reason to doubt this in the show (ahem, Chekhov’s Third Leech) and none in the books. In both media, Stannis with good reason believes he is the world’s savior. He is not a zealot in either media either but even more so in the books, where he actually has only sacrificed murderers, traitors, and cannibals, and even then in large part due to the wishes of his men, his wife, and/or Mel.

      You missed the point of the question as to why TV-Stannis sacrificed Shireen. The answer is not “to get something” but to get what. If you go back and read unsullied reviews of S5E09, the answer they almost universally gave (if any) was that he killed his daughter in pursuit of the throne, even though this is idiotic as he would no longer have an heir to pass it to. This is precisely because D&D underplayed the Stannis-as-Azor-Ahai angle to the point that the lay audience largely missed it. Hence, their interpretation of Stannis’s behavior was almost universally stupid AND evil, when it was neither. Heck, I see a lot of book readers interpreting his actions as such, as the show made it unclear.

      As for snow. I happen to be going on a hiking trip tomorrow in Japan’s northern alps. When I was reserving my mat at the mountain hut, I noticed on their web page that just last week the trail became clear of snow. It’s September. Do you realize how long deep snow takes to melt? Not hours. Not days. Not even weeks. MONTHS, including months where there wasn’t a day below 90F in the lowlands. Yet on TV, it just disappeared in an instant. This kind of thing just jumps right out at me when I see it, good show or bad.

      As for the Moletown Wallmart, a small town of a few hundred having a mason or blacksmith does not imply they would have anything that would meaningfully support an army of thousands. An army like Stannis’s would eat tons of grain per day. It was bad enough when they hung out at the Wall forever despite the implausibility of their being that kind of food there. Going back to get more? Even more ridiculous. Doubly so since the Watch is like 1/10th the size on TV as it is on the show, and would have correspondingly less to share. Obviously, this was a hook to get rid of Davos, but it was clunky as hell.

      As for the sell-swords, I’ve seen two basic arguments. One is that they ran off because Stannis was a meany and killed his daughter. Why this would be so offensive as to scare off men who murder for a living is beyond me. The other is the one you gave, that they ran off to avoid a losing cause. Yet it wasn’t a losing cause until they ran off, and they just witnessed an impressive display of Divine Power. The timing doesn’t make a lot of sense and this argument seems rather circular. Either way, the reasons are ambiguous at best, yet Robb declared all this “made sense”, which is what I was disputing.

      Your initial question was: “Why did R’hllor leave CampStannis”. Which is why I argued that the TV-show made it possible for the viewer to question in which basket Melisandre was placing her eggs, by showing her gravitating more and more to Jon Snow by using her glances towards Jon. It makes the viewer question why Mel (spokesperson for R’hllor) is paying attention to Jon Snow. Is she (read R’hllor) still 100% commited to CampStannis, or is there an subconscious movement towards Jon Snow – perhaps even guided by R’hllor but ignored by Mel? We saw Mel looking through the fire and seeing Jon at Castle Black, was that R’hllor guiding her viewpoint to Jon? Perhaps R’hllor never meant to stick with Stannis, but Mel did because she didn’t read the signs R’hllor gave her or ignored them? Maybe if R’hllor does exist, he wasn’t in CampStannis to begin with, but needed a spokesperson with Jon, which is why Mel gravitates towards Jon, but in her initial (apparently faulty) belief still sticks with Stannis until her fault smacks her in the face?

      R’hllor might not be real, but the bloodmagic sure works (leeches/Shireen+melting of snow).

      I did not miss the point of the question why TV-Stannis burned Shireen. It was very clear: He was stuck. Had no options aside from what Mel was telling him. Couldn’t go forward, couldn’t go backwards. His men were freezing (visually shown). The foodsupplies were running low and “twentygoodmen” happened. It has nothing to do with the Iron Throne or saving the world. It has to do with gaining the necessary momentum to stay afloat. Anybody suggesting it was for the Iron Throne probably just doesn’t have good perception or chose to ignore the fact that the show in particular showed that Stannis was stuck in Winter and it was getting bad, really fast and had no way out and that was the reason why he needed to do something incredibly drastic – even out of character. It doesn’t have much to do with the AA-thing. Sure, the horse and carriage-speech might’ve helped in making Stannis more sympathetic, but he’s a practical man and made a hard practical choice, despite whether he believes in R’hllor or not – he believed in the notion that at least the magic would work. So I don’t understand how it can be seen as stupid (other than burning your last heir) as it was the only option left. It’s been panned out clearly in the show, so it’s just a fact of stupid (re-)viewers apparently. Kill your daughter, or you and your daughter and your wife and your army and whatever cause you believe in will freeze to death. Stupid choice? Lol. Evil? Painful, yes, hard to understand, yes, but when you’ve been acquainted with such a practical man in the past three seasons, it’s hardly ooc.

      As for TV-lowland snow melting magically and Japan Mountain snow melting naturally. There’s your answer right there. 1. Television. 2. Lowlands vs. Mountain is a big, big difference in terms of melting. 3. Magic was involved. 4. Winter had just come over Westeros, hence it probably wasn’t deeply compossited snow – even in the North. I’ve seen snow rise up several feet high in blizzards, it can start to melt quite quickly. Snowfall in mountains remains present longer and condenses into harder packs of snow easier. But I’ll give you this: As the bloodmagic apparently doesn’t work instantly (3rd Leech), it’s quite convenient that the snow began to melt as soon as it did.

      As for Stannis getting rid of Davos, it may very well be Stannis being sympathetic to the man. I doubt it. But in any case this food-issue is still an irregularity that’s present in the books as much as it is in the show. In the books they have to feed the Wildlings as well.

      As for the sellswords, again: burning your daughter (as opposed to burning the head of an enemy faction/Mance) = liable to burn just about anybody. Who in their right mind would stick with that when you have a choice/not bound to by loyalty? Second, it wasn’t after they left that Stannis got stuck in a pickle. Stannis was already stuck in Winter, with foodsupplies running low, people freezing to death and than the poorly executed “20GoodMen”-scene happened. That’s when the sellswords left and than Stannis burned Shireen, after which even more men left.

      Stannis had nothing left to lose at that point, if he could capture Winterfell in battle he would have a position to treaty with the Northern Lords. The same logic counts as before the melting of the snow. There really wasn’t a way back and there wasn’ another way forward. As for his strategy, that was clumsy. He knew he was being watched by the Bolton’s as they found his army once before, why he didn’t send out scouts is beyond me.

      In conclusion, the battle of Winterfell was clumsy, but the events leading up to them had enough logic backing them, or at least enough visual clues that showed the audience that Stannis was forced to make a drastic decision. Not because he was evil or stupid, but because he had no other alternative.

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    108. Maria,

      Yeah, the biggest problem with the end of Stannis’s arc was the rushing. Had it not been rushed as much, his motives would have had more time to develop and all the (disputable) illogicalities would’ve been more… logical.
      I still think the best thing they could’ve done was leave Shireen, Selyse and Mel at the Wall, move the Hardhome fight to E7, end E8 with Shireen’s sacrifice after Mel somehow finds out about Stannis’s predicament (maybe because Davos arrives at the Wall to ask for supplies like he did in E10) and do a big battle in E9 where Stannis is either defeated by the Boltons or taking Winterfell (only to be killed by the Northerners in S6 as I believe it will happen in the books).

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    109. kit_hepburn:
      JCDavis,

      Rebuttal: Why would Maggie the Frog, who is specifically giving Cersei only three questions to be answered, randomly tell her about her death at the hands of one of her brothers when Cersei asked her about her children, not her death. All of Maggie’s other answers are super focused on what Cersei asked, only elaborating in a way that is still specifically related to the question posed. Conclusion? Cersei’s death is directly connected to her kids (since that is what the question was about), not her brothers. With that in mind, reread the prophecy and tell me who it sounds like the valonqar is. It’s not Tyrion or Jaime.

      I have read the prophecy many times….here is the part of the prophecy regarding the Valonqar:

      Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

      Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

      and from Wiki:

      Valonqar is High Valyrian for “little brother”. It is the word used by “Maggy”, a maegi and fortune teller, in her prophesy to Cersie Lannister.

      So….yes, I totally stand by my question. I see no reason that in the same sentence Maggy would just toss that on the end if she meant that another person was being referenced. So indeed, Jamie or Tyrion. My vote is Jamie.

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    110. Finally a little news. the big dilemma for me is if the book is announced to come out after the show do I wait for the book? Started out a skeptical show watcher (fantasy really isn’t my thing) and read the whole book series by the time season one was over. At this point I still love the show but the books are really where my heart lies.

      I think I’ll wait for the book in that case but hopefully it comes out right before the show.

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    111. forelia,

      Oh my God. Go back to Westeros.org with the rest of the vicious and nasty posters who occupy that site. Left that one a while ago when it ceased to be a fansite and became a let’s bash D & D forum.

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    112. What wonderful and stunning locations they have found again!!!

      So amazing! I’m quite happy with the mayor move of location shooting to spain this year. Wonder if it has something to do with the problems the production faced last year with the church and the WoS shoot in Dubrovnik and on the other hand the enthusiam they experienced in Spain.
      Croatia was beautiful, especially Dubrovnik and the Klis Fortress, but I think the country could now not offer such stunning new locations as they found in Spain.

      That said, it’s strange they couldn’t make that much of the spanish locations last year, as beautiful and splendid as the Alcázar is, I imagined the Water Gardens quite different than an empty park with some fountains. But that was a minor point in the Dorne Disaster.
      Hope they can make more to give it an epic feeling with the locations this year.

      Also hoping for the 2016 TWOW release, it’s time!

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    113. Maria:

      ita Stannis burning Shireen was awful, not because Stannis wouldn’t burn his daughter–he might, if desperate enough–but because it was rushed.
      2. As I said, Stannis would burn Shireen, but under the right circumstances, the same way he would burn Edric/Gendry. Again, books and show make that clear.

      I don’t see it. As far as I can remember the book burnings were of people who were already traitors (punishable by death offence) or enemies in war (Mance) or cannibals (flesh eating was again a punishable offence one can assume). He could always justify these burnings to Davos or himself, according to his “code” because these were crimes as far as he was concerned and all of Westeros if they were in his place. The manner of death might be completely insane but punishment was delivered.

      What was Shireen’s crime? If she’d have done something then yes, that was a set up that would allow a logical conclusion to his burnings. It is consistent with his judgement so far.

      And there’s the little matter of having a rightful heir to the throne. Stannis was written as the non bending iron. The rightful heir MUST get the throne. Which is what this shit is all about for him. Why would he burn his OWN heir to the throne. It makes very little sense. Do you think he’d want to leave his throne (because he thought he WAS the one to win it eventually) to the Lannisters?! Dany?!

      I’m not saying he won’t burn Shireen in the books. Who knows what Martin really wrote or how he wrote it? I’m saying that until Winds, this burning by Stannis wasn’t as set up as clear as you make it seem for many of us. The only set up I’ve seen was Mel’s. Always looking for the blood of a king. But Mel has always moved in ways Stannis knows little about. And Dance has left them hundreds of miles away from each other anyway.

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    114. Al Swearengen,

      I don’t think so Al. It’s the reason why I’m not so anxious or scared to get a conclusion about that storyline.

      See, books have that line “Jamie Lannister sends his regards” which Cat heard when Roose stabbed Rob. It is too obvious that the hooded woman (you know which, spoilers won’t work apparently so I’ll just leave it at that) would specifically target Jamie and expect Brienne to do the deed. But I think that’s a red herring. I’m at peace there. I might be wrong though and that would be a shock if Jamie was a gonner in Winds at her hands.

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    115. Tormund’s Woman,

      Exactly!
      Book Stannis will never burn an innocent for their beliefs or too make a sacrifice (he even says when he’s pressured to burn Asha “Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”).

      Just a correction. He didn’t burn Mance because he was a war enemy. He killed him because he was a deserter. Had the King-Beyond-the-Wall been Tormund or the Weeper, he could have tried to negotiate with him (the wildlings aren’t part of the Seven Kingdoms, so he had no jurisdiction over them), but he couldn’t let a turncloak go unpunished, or he could encourage other brothers of the Night’s Watch to do the same.

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    116. Arggh, no edit…just wanted to mention that I know Alejo personally form mutual friends…great dude, with strong political opinions, akin to those of Martin 😉

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    117. Pau,
      Thanks, I’ll update the article!

      ash,
      They haven’t been working for about a week now since we moved to a new server. We’re trying to fix it but so far no luck.

      thremnir,
      That’s why I put “Costa Brava area”…the area, along the coast and somewhat inland is called Costa Brava. I was gonna say region but I thought the area wasn’t big enough to be called a “region”.

      Chad Brick,
      Little reason to doubt the Red God in the books? Off the top of my head, I can think of one right away. Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Davos discover (in both the book and the show) that Stannis’ flaming sword was not “hot” at all and was therefore an illusion? Didn’t Aemon also in the books and on the show talk about how the sword wasn’t really hot and was therefore BS? That one fact alone is enough to disqualify Stannis as Azor Ahai.

      Richard,
      The interview was with THE publisher and not the translator.

      JCDavis,
      Agreed. Ever since I read that bit about Jaime coming into the world holding on to Cersei’s foot I thought Jaime was the Valonqar.

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    118. Dame Pasty:
      darksianna,
      Okay, thanks for the feedback on the translation. The only reason I mentioned that Gigamesh is small, because the article kind of says that it is…they’ve managed to maintain the rights to ASOIAF against “larger” publishers.But it may be a matter of degrees.Perhaps he’s smaller than some and larger than others?

      Alejo himself says in the interview it is a small publisher, because it is, specially compared to the other publishers 😉

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    119. Stan:
      Making the 8,

      Of course, we don’t know if “next year” will be Jan or Dec?Still a big difference.If Dec, season 7 will already be in the can.

      Alejo said the spanish edition will come after the english one, not much long after, but after. Probably 2-3 months, so should be before october

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    120. JCDavis
      Cersei: Will the king and I have children?

      Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

      and from Wiki:

      Valonqar is High Valyrian for “little brother”. It is the word used by “Maggy”, a maegi and fortune teller, in her prophesy to Cersie Lannister.

      So….yes, I totally stand by my question.I see no reason that in the same sentence Maggy would just toss that on the end if she meant that another person was being referenced.So indeed, Jamie or Tyrion.My vote is Jamie.

      Well… exactly. It’s funny, the way you’re wording it I totally agree with you, I’m just reaching a different conclusion than you are, lol. I agree that it comes across as though Maggy is just “tossing” that valonqar bit onto the end. Which doesn’t make sense, and it’s not her style based on the previous predictions she made. The only way it *actually* makes sense to me is if she meant “You’ll have three kids. And when your tears have drowned you, the little brother amongst your children will kill you.” (and that’s Tommen) Otherwise I have no idea why she’s suddenly referencing Tyrion or Jaime in a question and answer about her children. So what I’m saying is the valonqar has to be one of her kids.

      Anyway. I just like talking about this particular prediction because it’s interesting – but it’s OK if people disagree! I just happen to be really, really sure for my own reasons I guess. 🙂

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    121. Hodor’s Bastard:
      Hooray.

      Btw, did the translated versions of past ASoI&F novels get published on the same date as the english versions? I wonder when foreign pubs get their copy for translation? After the final english version has passed the final edit or chapter-by-chapter? I would assume there must be a significant delay between english and other versions when translating 1500 pgs.

      In any case, I anticipate a notablog post at some point soon, hopefully not denying everything.

      HB, in Spain the spanish translator, Cristina Macia (there’s also a catalan edition, with a different translator) told in an interview that she first read ADWD from an english regular edition, they didn’t even get an ARC. So the books came out at least 6 months after, if no more.

      In this case though, Alejo Cuervo (fun fact, Cuervo it’s his real last name and it means Crow in spanish), the editor, says in the interview that they’ve been promised to have a copy well in advanced of the publication. He didn’t say how much in advanced though, an it’s the first time it happens so we can’t guess

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    122. Pau,

      Interesting. I’m glad they don’t run it through Google Translate. 🙂

      By the way, what is the Catalan translation of “words are wind” and “wherever whores go”. I’m sure it isn’t simply a literal translation…I wonder if there is a metaphorical translation as well.

      Moltes gràcies, Pau!

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    123. Maria: If disagreement alone means bad lit/show/whatever, then Hamlet is very badly written.

      ita Stannis burning Shireen was awful, not because Stannis wouldn’t burn his daughter–he might, if desperate enough–but because it was rushed. Had it not been rushed, the show could have risen to Greek tragedy, as the setup is there:

      1. R’hllor was never with Stannis. This is in both books and show.
      2. As I said, Stannis would burn Shireen, but under the right circumstances, the same way he would burn Edric/Gendry. Again, books and show make that clear.
      3. Sellswords leave him, as he’s no longer trustworthy. I think they worry about his ability to fight after what he did to his daughter.
      4. They’re right to run, as Stannis’s lousy military tactics=suicide (which you note). His wife commits suicide outright, but has the decency to do it alone. Stannis takes his men with him.

      Again, this could have been incredible, had the show not rushed through it. For that, I blame the show.

      Agreed!. Stannis burning Shireen is tragedy right up GRRM’s alley (And Benioff And Weiss said it did come from him!)

      The show just rushed/compressed in a way the books obviously will not. The Theon preview chapter from “Winds” strongly leads one to conclude that.

      So while the show’s version feels slightly flawed to me (the only version we’ve seen so far!), Stannis ultimately making the supreme family sacrifice that ends up dooming him, is actually an awesome logical story climax to his character.

      Renly…..Edric/Gendry….Shireen

      It totally was meant to end with Shireen. It’s so obvious from the books.

      No one is more accursed than the Kinslayer

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    124. Chad Brick,

      Firstly, you need to drop the notion that Stannis was ever truly favored by the Red God. That idea doesn’t hold up to scrutiny and never has. Stannis was a useful tool at best, and once he outlived his usefulness, R’hllor tossed him aside.

      The Red God’s true champion (or champions perhaps – R’hllor clearly has a hand in Dany’s rise to power) is Jon Snow, and probably always has been. The Red God has practically had to beat Melisandre over the head with this fact in the books, but she either can’t understand, or refuses to because she’s already bet it all on Stannis (much like his fanboys ironically).

      Stannis sacrificed Shireen out of desperation. He was stuck in a dire situation with the weather turning against him, the Stormcrows deserting him, and Ramsay and his “twenty good men” (I’ll never understand why people make fun of that line so much… although most of the people who do it probably don’t understand either) sabotaging his weapons and supplies which were critical to his war effort.

      Most of all though, he did it because Melisandre convinced him that it was the only way. It’s true that he wasn’t too keen on the idea a few episodes before (although it seemed to me that he wasn’t 100% against the idea), but Ramsay’s raid on top of everything else was the final straw, and he did what he thought he had to do to ensure his victory.

      People are really underestimating Mel’s influence here. Stannis has always trusted her (albeit somewhat begrudgingly at times). She reinforces that trust through appeals to his vanity and through deception as was somewhat implied at the end of Season 4. She also clearly has power, as seen by the shadow she birthed and the leech ritual which presumably played a role in the deaths of Robb and Joffrey (and soon Balon, although I think this should’ve happened earlier in the show per the books). Finally, Stannis lusts after Mel and might even have feelings towards her.

      So really, you could absolve Stannis of some of the responsibility for Shireen’s sacrifice because the truth is that it was mostly Mel’s idea, and she made the biggest push for it to happen. Stannis himself actually seemed pretty moody the morning after the sacrifice and acted cold towards Mel when she tried to reassure him, despite the sacrifice clearly bearing fruit with the weather improving (although the weather surely didn’t improve for Stannis’s benefit – instead I think it bought Mel an easy ride back to Castle Black where R’hllor actually needed her to be).

      As for the sellswords leaving, I’m not even sure why this is a point of contention. The Stormcrows obviously left because they felt the risks of staying outweighed the benefits, particularly the perilous winter weather. The rest left because, y’know… Stannis fucking burned his own daughter alive. It’s been established that kinslaying is pretty looked down upon by most people in the ASoIaF universe, and I certainly wouldn’t be too keen to support or even be associated with a man who committed such an abominable act, gold or no. So the sellswords said to hell with it and left.

      Lastly, Stannis’s “failure” at basic military tactics (because I’m sure many of his fans are experts on the subject) occurred and he “suicided” himself and his military… because he probably didn’t really care anymore. He already lost everything that truly mattered to him. He murdered his brother (which he did in fact regret), he murdered his daughter, his wife committed suicide, Melisandre abandoned him, Davos was gone… and it was all for nothing. At that point he likely realized what a fool he’d been and probably felt like absolute trash about himself… and maybe even thought he deserved to die (I kinda got that impression from him when Brienne confronted him after the battle).

      I mean, fuck, the man is human. He’s not a superhero. Let him feel a little remorse for god’s sake. Would you be able to just march on like nothing happened after losing everything like that? Could you remain calm and composed for a huge battle? Would you even care about winning at all? Because I sure wouldn’t.

      The rest of the shit you mentioned is just the typical hyperbolic nitpicking that doesn’t really make a difference. How that stuff happened isn’t as important as that it happened. Or were you one of those guys who complained about Batman somehow “teleporting” back to Gotham after escaping from Bane’s prison in TDKR? Because that’s what I like to call “missing the fucking point.”

      I’ve said more than enough on this subject. I’m tired of talking about it. I’ve spent too much time trying to explain it to people, many of whom don’t really care if they’re wrong or not and will maintain their positions out of sheer stubborness and blind fanboyism. The bottom line is that people hate Stannis’s downfall because it didn’t fit with their own vision of the character. I’ve seen people flat out deny that Stannis will even die in the books, that he’ll crush the Boltons and take Winterfell. The same people will probably go apeshit when he fails to take Winterfell and dies in the books as well, and say that D&D somehow forced George to write it that way. You can’t argue with people like that, so it’s pointless to try.

      *drops mic*

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    125. flintwielder,

      Link? I took a look over there, the only recent thing I could find that might be related to this is a reminder to stay on topic, i.e. don’t discuss/ask about the books or show.

      Unless you’re being sarcastic to emphasize that any release date info outside the NAB is probably not useful. In that case, carry on.

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    126. Robb Snow:
      Chad Brick,

      So really, you could absolve Stannis of some of the responsibility for Shireen’s sacrifice because the truth is that it was mostly Mel’s idea, and she made the biggest push for it to happen.

      A man gives a gun to a chimp and the chimp shoots someone, you don’t blame the chimp.

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    127. Tywin of the Hill,

      Stannis is in my top 4 favorite characters, but I don’t excuse his past actions. Stannis did kill Renly, and I’m not sure why people continue to deny that. And he may not have given the order to kill Edric in the books like he did with Gendry in the show, but he was considering it, which is just as bad. If Davos didn’t intervene, there’s no telling what would have happened.

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    128. Lol say how the writing makes no sense and should get called out for it despite being a lot of work, get no real responses except “oh my gawsh go back to westeros.org looosur.” No wonder the show remains successful despite its numerous flaws…If that’s how certain fans respond to criticism.

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    129. kit_hepburn:
      Robb Snow,

      I’m in a weird position where I actually don’t think either Jaime or Brienne are going to die in WoW (or at least not during the LS encounter, and not until close to the end of the story as a whole, if they die at all), but I *also* don’t believe Jaime is the valonqar. I look forward to the book being published to find out if I’m right.

      I tentatively agree with you that the LS encounter won’t be the end of them. That would be too easy. They have some sort of story arc, and that arc is self-evidently not complete.

      I’m not sure about the valonquar. It could be Jaime. It could easily be a little brother of the younger and more beautiful queen, meaning Rickon Stark could be it, should the stunning queen turn out to be Sansa.

      It could be FAegon in the books.

      It could be a lot of people. No clue why some think it’s Sandor Clegane, though.

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    130. HA! No.

      Still on course for that 2019 release. Nothing short of Angel Gabriel delivering the release date on a scroll will persuade me otherwise. I’m a reasonable man.

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    131. Young Dragon,

      Book Stannis would never tell a man “You have until dawn” and then kill him within the hour. It was Melisandre who killed him without Stannis knowledge. He was asleep and dreaming with Renly’s death.

      And no, considering to do something ain’t nearly as bad as doing it. I’ve considered many times to kill people (bullies, criminals, my brother…). Does it make me a murderer, or a bad person? No, we judge people for what they do, not what they think.

      Plus, he even refused to burn Asha (who was just the daughter of a foe) when he was in a desperate position (cannibalism, blizzards…). “No burnings! Pray harder!”

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    132. jjp:
      flintwielder,

      Link? I took a look over there, the only recent thing I could find that might be related to this is a reminder to stay on topic, i.e. don’t discuss/ask about the books or show.

      Unless you’re being sarcastic to emphasize that any release date info outside the NAB is probably not useful. In that case, carry on.

      Psssst…you broke the code….

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    133. forelia,

      There is a difference between constructive criticism and ranting. Constructive criticism is given in a calm manner, politely stating your opinion while respecting the person whose work you’re criticizing. Ranting involves using words like “garbage”, “nonsensical”, “plot hole”, “hacks”, “Dumb and Dumber”, etc. without any real substance in your argument.

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    134. Tywin of the Hill,

      And yet, he did. Do you honestly think that Stannis is naive enough to believe that he had no role in Renly’s murder?

      I disagree. The fact that Stannis was willing to sleep on the decision to burn an innocent child casts him in a negative light. Are you seriously ok with that?

      He was planning to use Asha as a bargaining tool against the ironborn.

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    135. Gwenivere,

      I don’t want D+D to tell me that Jon isn’t dead, and I don’t want them to tell me R+L=J. I want to hear those things from George first. I won’t care how they choose to tell it after that, but I want those two things from George – before they spoil it. So, I can agree to your idea.. but only if George drops those chapters.. and he won’t – that would be CRAZY and he isn’t – well maybe he is.. they say genius and madness are closely related.. but he isn’t STUPID.. so. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    136. Tywin of the Hill: Book Stannis didn’t kill Renly. And he had no intention of burning Edric Storm.

      I love Stannis as a character, but the fanboys want to strip the grey from his character (ie: what makes him interesting!)

      Of course, he killed Renly in the book. Just like he killed Courtnay Penrose the same way afterwards when he personally sent Davos on the mission to have Mel give birth to the shadow baby. Do you think Melisandre did any of that behind Stannis’s back? Don’t tell me “Stannis denied it”. He also denied Mel having anything to do with it. C’mon!

      Unlike the show, the book had 2 shadow baby murders. The Renly one is left as a mystery (with clues!) and then pays off with the Courtney Penrose “reveal” in the Davos POV. Just because Stannis (unlike the show) lacks a POV, doesn’t mean we can’t connect the dots as readers.

      Some book readers have become incredibly obtuse and dense regarding Stannis. Of course, he would have burned Edric without Davos intervening. He said if Joffrey dies after the first 2 leaches/king deaths, he would consider sacrificing his nephew. That was a pivotal ethical conflict in Davos’s SOS chapters. Read Davos V & VI in “Storm Of Swords”. It’s what led to Davos secretly sending the kid away (just like like Gendry in the show). Why do some book readers want to remove any of the interesting ethical conflict from Stannis? That would make the moral conflict only about Davos and Mel..REALLY?!!!

      If Davos was sure that there was no chance of Stannis killing Edric in the future especially after Stannis powerful speech about how he would never kill “blood”………..READ: A LITERARY CHARACTER IN DENIAL), why did he feel it imperative to get Edric the fuck out of dodge.

      Why would Martin place sentences like this right after Stannis’s declaration.

      He did not use the boy’s name. that made Davos very uneasy. ”

      What the fuck is wrong with people 🙂

      Holy shit, even ultra book purists Linda and Elio expect Stannis to burn Shireen in the books because it makes logical sense of the Stannis character in the books.

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    137. Stannis has a big army, just got $ from the iron bank, has the mountain tribes as well as other houses including the karstarks, held via hostage. He has the thin ice near where he’s posted. He has Davos en route to get the manderlys. The boltons are experiencing chaos, paranoia, fear and possibly revolt. Martin may make Stannis live as long as possible to prove to dissenters he can. On a separate note; has Martin responded to his editor, who he can’t mock openly, confirming or at least funneling expectations?

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    138. Let’s hope so…keeping fingers crossed…Anyways there are plenty of other books and series of novels to keep busy.

      In fact I just started delving into the universe of “The Expanse” series of novels…and it is awesome. The work of James S. A. Correy, which is the pen name for Daniel Abraham an Ty Franks…who used to be George RR Martin’s assistant…yep!

      If you want space opera with substance, style and brains…honestly give that a try before the Man regales us with the next installment of ASOIF…”The Winds Of Winter”… I’ve just read the two prequel novellas “The Churn” and “The Butcher of Anderson Station”, and I’m already hooked. I know Sci-Fi will debut a new TV series based on the novels also called “The Expanse”, but given the adult content of the novels, I don’t really think Sci-Fi is the right fit…

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    139. Young Dragon,

      He didn’t gave the order, so it’s not his fault. And what if he did? Renly was an usurper and a traitor, and those crimes are punishable by death. If Benjen had tried to depose Ned as Lord of Winterfell, Ned would have had to decapitate him or send him to the Wall.

      As I’ve said, I judge people for what they do, not what they consider to do. And when he berated Davos “he sounded more tired than angry”. I think that deep inside, he thanked Davos for that.

      His army was about to die from hypothermia and starvation. Do you think he cared about the Iron Islands? Also, in Theon’s POV in WoW,

      he even agrees to behead Theon instead of burning him

      He never really bought into the king’s blood/Azor Ahai thing.

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    140. Tywin of the Hill,

      Tywin of the Hill:
      Young Dragon,

      He didn’t gave the order, so it’s not his fault. And what if he did? Renly was an usurper and a traitor, and those crimes are punishable by death. If Benjen had tried to depose Ned as Lord of Winterfell, Ned would have had to decapitate him or send him to the Wall.

      He didn’t give the order? So Mell just gave birth to a shadow baby herself?

      No man is more accursed then the KINSLAYER, it’s a theme in the books, said over, and over again. You can justify that he did it for the good of the realm. It does not metter, he KILLED his own brother. Kinslaying is among the worst thing a man can do, it is said multiple times.
      It does not metter if he ment good, it does not metter that Renly was a traitor, wich I don’t deny, it does not metter. HE. KILLED. HIS. OWN. BROTHER.

      And if you think, that Stannis is excussed, because he is the ”rightfull” king, I am afraid you just ignored evidance because he’s a character you like.

      I like Stannis, (altough I’m highly against how GRRM wrote him in ADWD, the man was relenthless, obtuse, stubborn ACOK/ASOS,…then in ADWD he proceeds to make jokes/quips about Robert,… Asha,..etc.) but that does not free him from his crime. What Renly did is meaningless, killing his OWN brother doomed his fate. Something anyone should have noticed, as there is more evidance of him dying, then him winning the throne.

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    141. Mihnea,

      Stannis said in CoK “I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands. “I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”
      I’m not saying that he didn’t **** Melisandre, only that she “gave birth” behind his back.

      It’s arguable if he’s accursed because of killing Renly. A lot of characters who didn’t commit kinslaying (Ned, Rob, Catelyn, Jon…) have had shity endings, so Stannis ain’t more or less doomed than those.
      I’m sure he would have been more doomed had he not killed him. I mean, Renly was preparing to battle him and even gave orders regarding his corpse! It was kill or be killed.

      If Tywin wasn’t considered a kinslayer because of ordering the execution of Tyrion for treason, I’m sure neither is Stannis.

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    142. Making the 8,

      Making the 8: Making the 8
      September 9, 2015 at 7:06 pm
      mau,

      Anyone entertaining that tells a good story. I don’t want suggestions on medical journals or text books.

      Branden Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive series. So far two books are out but they are hefty and amazing.

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    143. Tywin of the Hill,

      Tywin of the Hill:
      Mihnea,

      Stannis said in CoK “I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands. “I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”
      I’m not saying that he didn’t **** Melisandre, only that she “gave birth” behind his back.

      The show outright proves it that Stannis, gave the order but of course you dissmiss it, as it contradicts your vision of Stannis. and can’t accept that a character you liked commited a horrible crime. The tought that Stannis did not know what would happen, is in my opinion, ignorance. You simply want to find an excuse, because you like Stannis.
      I never compared Stannis with anyone, not Ned not Tywin, altough Tywin had a fitting end for someone that wanted to kill his son. But their crimes, do not absolve Stannis for his. Ned’s story has nothing to do with kinslaying, so I don’t know why you brought it up, but Stannis’s story does. If you tought that him killing Renly would have no repercussion, then you must have willingly ignored one of the major themes in Stannis’s story.

      Again, Renly’s action do not metter. Had he killed Stannis he would have been just as guilty. This is a situation without a clear way out. But that does not absolve Stannis of killing his brother. Nothing does. No metter what Renly did.
      Was it the right move in that moment? I would say yes, as he gained Renly’s army. But in the end it does not metter. He killed his brother, and as the books say, multiple times, kinslaying is one of the most horrible crimes a person can commit. Had Renly killed Stannis, he too would have been punished, just like Stannis was.
      And I’m sure Tywin would have been called kinslayer, had he actoully got to killing his son, but he never had the opportunity. While Stannis actoully did it. So again, I don’t see your point, you are trying to absolve Stannis’s crimes, by pointing Tywin’s.

      And I will stop here, it’s clear we won’t have a agreement, on this metter. You simply try to absolve Stannis of his crimes, when he himself admits them.

      And frankly I’m here to disscuss the show, not the books. so I would appreciate if you would ignore my comments from now on, I will do the same.

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    144. “I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands. “I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.”

      Wow. That’s a twist on Macbeth if I ever read one. Beautifully written, but clearly Macbethean.

      It’s stuff like that that tells me there was really only one way Stannis’ story was ever going to end (and it’s how it ended in the show).

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    145. mitch: even ultra book purists Linda and Elio expect Stannis to burn Shireen in the books because it makes logical sense of the Stannis character in the books.

      Actually, I expect that after Mel learns about Stannis defeat she burns Shireen and Jon’s corpse to wake the dragon from the stone, and she succeeds, but the dragon that awakes is not the one she thought of. I really don’t see why she would try to resurrect Jon, I believe it happens as an accident, and one life for another, Shireen for Jon.

      Of course, if I’m right I don’t know how the show could do it, who would be the sacrifice? Dolorous Edd, Stanniss??

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    146. O_o,

      You don’t need sacrifice to bring people from the dead, as Thoros proved with Beric, and wich Mellisandre saw herself, in the show, with a purpose, I suspect.
      Mellisandre buring Shireen, to revive Jon, is speculation. And makes little sense in the show, as Mell already knows sacrifice is not neccesary, from seeing Thoros bring Beric back.

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    147. Mihnea:
      O_o,

      Mellisandre buring Shireen, to revive Jon, is speculation. And makes little sense in the show, as Mell already knows sacrifice is not neccesary, from seeing Thoros bring Beric back.

      This might be a bit confusing. I mean it makes little sense to sacrifice anyone, to bring Jon back.

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    148. Mihnea,
      The show doesn’t prove shit about book Stannis. The show is the show and the books are the books, as GRRM has said many times.

      I don’t consider killing Renly a “horrible crime”. I brought those examples up to prove that, kinslayer or not, no one is safe, so they might as well do what it takes to survive. And the books also talk about many characters who killed their kin and got away with it (Viserys II, Brynden Rivers, Maekar I, Tyrion Lannister…).

      And who says that Stannis is being punished for killing Renly? What were his choices? Dying then or dying a year later? If I were him, I would have done the same.

      If you’re here to discuss the show, then you shouldn’t have replied to a comment talking about the books.

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    149. Tywin of the Hill,

      Tywin of the Hill:
      Mihnea,
      The show doesn’t prove shit about book Stannis. The show is the show and the books are the books, as GRRM has said many times.

      I am here to discuss the show, not the books. If I wanted to disscuss the boks I would be on Westeros.org, or even our own book forum.

      And the show does give clues, but of wich you choose to ignore because they confict with your vision of the story. I hope when TWOW comes out, you will get the story you wish for, but I highly doubt it.

      I replied to a comment about Stannis guilt. But I will stop now, it is clear you don’t want to have a disscussion, you just want to vent out. And no metter my argument, you will continue to dissmiss them, because Stannis is a character you clearly like.

      I truly recomand Westeros.org tough, it is a great place for book-readers who are dissapointed with the show.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Tywin of the Hill,

      You’re changing your argument from “Stannis never killed Renly” to “Renly deserved it.” I am arguing against the former, not the latter. Besides, the death of Cortnay Penrose proves that Stannis knew what Mel was doing.

      The fact that Stannis is thanking Davos for taking the decision out of his hands isn’t a good thing. It proves that even Stannis had no idea what he would have done without Davos’s intervention. Maybe Stannis would have made the right decision, but that he even considered burning a child alive is pretty despicable to me, but I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

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    151. Mihnea: You don’t need sacrifice to bring people from the dead, as Thoros proved with Beric

      Yes, you’re right, I forgot, still, one could argue that Beric didn’t really came all the way back (or at least he came back damaged), but I agree that the show established that red priests can bring people back from the dead, and it will probably go that way in the show

      The reason I got confused was because I was thinking along the lines of why Mel would want to bring back Jon? Why not go and resurrect Stannis then? as far as we know Jon is no one special to her.

        Quote  Reply

    152. O_o,

      Have you watched the Show? The way Mell looks at Jon. She even directy tells him there is great power in him! She clearly see’s something in him.

      Stannis proved to be wrong. She said if he sacrifices Shireen he will win the battle. When she realizes, that he will actoully lose it, she also realize that she was wrong about Stannis.

      I don’t think she nows CLEARLY what she see’s in Jon, but she certanly see’s more then in Stannis.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Mihnea: The way Mell looks at Jon

      you mean lustfully? 😛

      Mihnea: I don’t think she nows CLEARLY what she see’s in Jon, but she certanly see’s more then in Stannis.

      I don’t agree, even if she sees something in Jon, Stannis is her chosen one. Right now if she knows (or believes) that she can resurrect someone, she would bring back Stannis. If on the other hand, she realizes she’s been wrong and that her faith betrayed her, then why would she want to bring back Jon? She sees something in him, ok, but she saw greater things in Stannis, and she was wrong.

      The point is that as things stand, it would not make sense for her to suddenly go and kiss of life Jon, something else has to happen before that.

        Quote  Reply

    154. O_o: you mean lustfully?

      Mihnea:

      The point is that as things stand, it would not make sense for her to suddenly go and kiss of life Jon, something else has to happen before that.

      I fully expect this, Mell most likely already realize she was wrong about Stannis, otherwise she would not leave him. Now, her seeing Jon in her flemes again, she would probaly realize how important he is. and proceed to revive him.

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    155. Making the 8,
      To the person looking for something to tide them over…
      Try the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon. There are eight main books and more to come plus a bunch of side stories from “minor” characters. What an adventure! Great history and a twist of time travel to boot! Ask the many, many, many fans.

        Quote  Reply

    156. Kezzolt,

      Why would he write the last one faster? Surely its more complex trying to wrap everything up and fit it all in in a satisfying way? He might even decide that he was too ambitious to predict 7 books and end up doing 8 or 9.

        Quote  Reply

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