Peter Dinklage Calls the Ending of Game of Thrones “Heartbreaking”

Dinklage
We have received further confirmation that season 8 is going to rip all our hearts and eat them in front of us.

While chatting about the Superbowl Ad he’ll be appearing in this Sunday, Peter Dinklage discussed the final season of Game of Thrones and what a massive cultural event it will be.

Dinklage filmed a commercial for Doritos Blaze and Mountain Dew Ice, which quite unsubtly plays into the elemental aspect of of Game of Thrones as Dinklage and Morgan Freeman engage in a rap battle between ice (Mountain Dew) and fire (spicy Doritos). Fun tidbit: Dinklage had to memorize the words to Busta Rhymes’ “Look At Me Now” for the commercial.

“I had probably one of the fastest tracks in the history of rap, so I think I should get a lot of credit for that,” Dinklage said.

Anyway, back to Game of Thrones. Dinklage commented on the ridiculous levels of secrecy he and the rest of the cast are have been living under for years … though he doesn’t seem to mind it.

“That’s the fun part,” he said. “Everybody has to wait just like everybody else – family, friends. We live in a world of spoilers and we keep it quiet. We’re really good at this point.

As for the ending of season 8?

“It was heartbreaking and the end of an era,” Dinklage was all said.

So, it’s not entirely clear whether Dinklage was calling the actual content of the show’s conclusion “heartbreaking” or if he was just referring to the experience of nearing the end of his tenure on Game of Thrones. Either way, season 8 is going to be the “end of an era” for everyone, fans and cast members alike. We’re all going to end a stack of tissues for those final six episodes.

62 responses

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    1. Bittersweet, Heartbreaking, Epic.
      sounds like an interesting final six episodes, I hope they can pull it all off perfectly.
      this is the ending they’ve been working towards for so long, I can’t wait to see it.

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    2. Matthew The Dragon knight:
      Bittersweet, Heartbreaking, Epic.
      sounds like an interesting final six episodes, I hope they can pull it all off perfectly.
      this is the ending they’ve been working towards for so long, I can’t wait to see it.

      Me too..we have to see..a lot of heartbreaking moments next.season

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    3. Thanks for linking the commercial since I’m not really planning on watching the Super Bowl to see it (as I’m a Minnesotan, a Vikings fan and still ‘heartbroken’ they shit the bed at the chance to be in it at home). 🙁

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    4. Edward,

      Its Because They Know, But They Can Not Completely Spoil it. And its another year away.

      Lets just say you are a Super Fan of any team and they lose Terribly. You get up and throw your tv out of the window. Trust me next spring you might want to buy another TV

      It is worse than the red wedding, ITS THAT BAD

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    5. Huge difference if he is calling the ending heartbreaking vs the fact that it is ending.

      I would guess he is referring to the later because the former would be very revealing.

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    6. House Monty,
      Not just that but also a bit… anti-promotional? It certainly doesn’t seem like a good thing to say to the fans that the show ends that way. “The end of the show, the final hours of this beloved series are going to rip your heart out and leave you whimpering in a dark corner for days on end. You’re going to feel more miserable than you’ve ever felt. Enjoy!!” 😛

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    7. Clob:
      House Monty,
      Not just that but also a bit… anti-promotional?It certainly doesn’t seem like a good thing to say to the fans that the show ends that way.“The end of the show, the final hours of this beloved series are going to rip your heart out and leave you whimpering in a dark corner for days on end.You’re going to feel more miserable than you’ve ever felt.Enjoy!!”😛

      You summed it up perfectly with your usual humour and a dash of Minnesota Nice. Ever optimistic, I hope it’s more sweet than bitter, but Dinklage’s comments are not promising.

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    8. House Monty: Huge difference if he is calling the ending heartbreaking vs the fact that it is ending.
      I would guess he is referring to the later because the former would be very revealing.

      I see what you mean but I feel that, even if he did refer to the final season’s content as heartbreaking, it would not be that much of a spoiler.

      At this point in the story, there is not a single character whose death would make me truly “happy”. The Mountain and the Night King’s deaths will be positive developments, for sure, but they are not really full characters : Gregor’s death would have been satisfying but his zombie self is more pathetic than sinister; as for the Night King, he is neither cruel nor sadistic so his demise will be necessary but hardly emotionally fulfilling. The days of “villains” are long gone.
      All the remaining characters, even the worst so to speak, have their redeeming qualities, their humanity, their appeal. And yes, that does include Cersei and Euron : she is both tragic and crazed and he is fun as hell ! ^^
      So regardless of who ends up dying, I think it will be heartbreaking.

      Clob: Not just that but also a bit… anti-promotional?It certainly doesn’t seem like a good thing to say to the fans that the show ends that way.

      Ha ha ! That is very true ! ^^

      That being said, I do not think anyone still has to promote Game of Thrones nowadays… Everyone knows people will watch no matter what happens or what they say so they might as well have some fun with it 😛

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    9. Is there no source link for his comments? I’m sure he’s talking about the end of the job since he doesn’t watch the show. The worst part is 6 episodes left. It will go by fast and there won’t be much to rewatch just like S7. It’s shocking to go back and watch some of S7 realizing not many episodes to choose from.

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    10. ACME,

      At this point in the story, there is not a single character whose death would make me truly “happy”.
      —————
      Speaking only for myself, there is such a character:

      Lord Robett Glover.

      On his tombstone: “You swore your allegiance to House Stark, Lord Glover, but in their hour of greatest need, you refused the call.”

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    11. Ten Bears: Speaking only for myself, there is such a character: Lord Robett Glover.
      On his tombstone: “You swore your allegiance to House Stark, Lord Glover, but in their hour of greatest need, you refused the call.”

      It truly has been an interesting journey for Lord Glover’s reputation…

      In season 6, when he gave his reasons for refusing the Starks’ call, most of the forum (I am not including you in this “most”, Ten Bears, because I genuinely cannot remember your personal take on this back then) understood his decision and empathised with his plight. He was then viewed as the embodiment of Davos’s prediction that, rather sensibly, men will only follow potential winners because they do not want to risk getting killed for the sake of someone they do not believe in.
      In the season finale, he (as well as all the others) was shamed into shouting “King in the North” by Lady Mormont and, once again, most fans celebrated him for it.

      One season later, neither Lord Glover nor the rest of the northern nobility has changed one iota. They are still as loudly jingoistic as they ever were and they still only want to be ruled by whomever they think will serve their interests and sens of self the best. But this year, Lord Glover and his fellow lords get called traitors for it by a rather large section of the fandom. It is a fascinating evolution. ^^

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    12. “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

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    13. ACME,

      One of my favourite scenes is when ol Robby gave Sansa/Jon/the audience a nice reminder and view of the real cost to those ‘behind the scenes’ in rival Houses’ conflicts. I think, if anything, perhaps it gave Sansa a bit of a realization (she’s a slow learner, but she DOES learn 😉) on the lives of the banners and smallfolk that helps in running things at Winterfell and in organizing the northerners in preparing for winter. Davos was the real star in appealing to the people on a more humble level, the guy is great at being blunt while at the same time not talking down to anyone. Or to the Iron Bank for that matter. Anywho, thumbs up for that scene, I still say.

      Then he was turned into a flipsy flopsy weathervane without substance which is such a disservice. The term “shit or get off the pot” comes to mind – he had good reason to say what he did to Sansa and Jon, but once you commit again after something like that, well…commit.

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    14. ACME,

      Well, in S6e10 Lord Glover seemed so contrite, and vowed “I will stand behind Jon Snow: The King in the North” (dramatically unsheaths sword and kneels).

      But then by Episode 1 or 2, he’s bitching and moaning again and questioning Jon’s decisions; and as soon as Jon leaves, Glover’s kowtowing to Sansa, saying maybe they should’ve crowned her instead.

      Feckless geek. Hopefully he’ll get Randylled 🔥 in Episode 1 after he tries to call Daenerys Jon’s “foreign whore.” Or better yet, goes AWOL when called upon to fight, and gets wightened.

      PS I’ve got to have someone to root against in S8. MiddleFinger’s gone, and Euron looks like a refugee from the Daredevil 2 set.

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    15. Pigeon: One of my favourite scenes is when ol Robby gave Sansa/Jon/the audience a nice reminder and view of the real cost to those ‘behind the scenes’ in rival Houses’ conflicts.

      I agree wholeheartedly with you. His speech was indeed a great reminder of what it truly means and implies for a Great House to call onto its vassals.
      And in season 7, Lord Glover gave us another reminder, this time of what it truly means and implies for someone to be the ruler of the North : it means staying in the North, taking care of daily northern matters and defending northern sovereignty, no matter how thoroughly counter-productive it is in the context of a continental war against the undead.
      It appears that this definition was not of Glover’s invention either; most of the lords concurred with his assessment. Even Lyanna Mormont, Jon’s main ally and foremost supporter, did not agree with his decision to sail south to meet with the Dragon queen.

      Davos was the real star in appealing to the people on a more humble level

      Davos is always the real star. Of everything. Him, the Hound and Edd : the Holy Foocking Trinity of People with Common Sense. 😉

      Then he was turned into a flipsy flopsy weathervane without substance which is such a disservice. The term “shit or get off the pot” comes to mind – he had good reason to say what he did to Sansa and Jon, but once you commit again after something like that, well…commit.

      I do see your point and I do, to a degree, agree with it on an emotional level. However, I cannot shake the impression that Lord Glover’s and his fellow lords’ decision to proclaim Jon “King in the North” was weathervane-y in nature.

      None of them stood their ground when Lyanna Mormont insulted and berated them for refusing the Starks’ call. They all could have said “listen little girl, you’re cute and all but you are going to have take several rows of seats on this one. We had pretty good reasons for not following the Starks this time around. Now, we are thrilled they won and, if they still want us as their vassals, we are more than happy to serve but cool your jets on the ‘Northern pride’ front. Especially considering that the only reason why you decided to answer their call had nothing to do with your supreme sense of loyalty and everything to do with your formidable fear of the White Walkers. So, for the last time Frowny Face, sit the hell down !”
      But they did not. They all got misty-eyed over the same old “North remembers” mantra, regardless of its utter vacuity, and bent the knee, symbolically speaking, to the winner. To the one who shouted the loudest.

      Perhaps one of the greatest lessons of the sixth season was that dogs are only loyal as long as you feed them… Davos, as per usual, was right : “I may not know the North, but I know men. They’re more or less the same in any corner of the world and even the bravest of them don’t want to see their wives and children skinned for a lost cause.”
      Contrarily to what Ned brainwashed his children into believing, Northerners are not special. They, like their southern counterparts, will only follow rulers who “feed” them, who serve their interests as they understand them, who pay attention to them.
      That may explain the Northern lords’ current discontent with Jon.

      Ten Bears: Well, in S6e10 Lord Glover seemed so contrite (…) But then by Episode 1 or 2, he’s bitching and moaning again and questioning Jon’s decisions

      It is an entirely fair point and one that raises an interesting question, I believe : is loyalty a blank check ? Once one has sworn, is one therefore forbidden to change one’s mind as more information come to light ?
      If so, we should be appalled by Jaime’s decision to revoke his allegiance to Cersei. And by Jon’s decision to void the North’s independence by bending the knee.

      I believe we all, deep down, subscribe to Brienne’s new philosophy : “fuck loyalty” (sidenote : it was so great to hear Brienne say that !). Blind loyalty, like blind faith, is the death of critical thinking. We all know that Jaime was right to let go of his allegiance to Cersei after he, at long last, understood the true nature of their relationship; we all know that Jon was right not to value the North’s sovereignty over the survival of the human race (even though the reason why he bent the knee was a bit too sentimental for my liking).
      I would also gladly argue that Randyll was right, given what he knew of Daenerys’s army, to rebel against Lady Olenna just as Lady Olenna herself had her reasons for reneging on her House’s allegiance to the Crown.

      Loyalty is not owed; it is earned. Day in, day out. If Lord Glover were the only lords angry at Jon, I would gladly call him an arsehole. However, as virtually all the Northern lords are pretty mad at their (former) king, I am going to say that it may be because he made a few mistakes.

      after he tries to call Daenerys Jon’s “foreign whore.”

      That is another thing that grabbed my attention last season, I have to confess.
      Lord Glover called Talisa a “foreign whore”, for Pete’s sake ! Talisa, an intelligent, accomplished, loving, caring woman who renounced her privileged background to dedicate herself to helping others, a person who never hurt a bloody fly, was called a “foreign whore” and it flew under the radar ! Lord Glover proved himself to be fairly misogynistic and xenophobic which means, since he operates narratively as a representative of his class, that pretty much all of his fellow lords entertain similar prejudices. Most decidedly, Northerners are not “special”. They are no better than people south of the Neck.

      PS I’ve got to have someone to root against in S8. MiddleFinger’s gone, and Euron looks like a refugee from the Daredevil 2 set.

      How daaaaaare you madam ? How very dare you criticise the impeccable sense of style of the Storm himself ? Do not tell me that his Renaissance fair apparel does not stir you ! Is ice running through your veins ? 😛

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    16. ACME,

      Lord Chickens*it didn’t even wait for plausible reason before he started bitching and moaning and second-guessing his king’s decisions. In S7e1:

      Jon: “I want every northern maester to scour their records for any mention of dragonglass. Dragonglass kills white walkers. It’s more valuable to us now than gold. We need to find it, we need to mine it, we need to make weapons from it. Everyone aged 10 to 60 will drill daily with spears, pikes, bow and arrow.”

      Lord Glover: “It’s about time we taught these boys of summer how to fight.”

      Jon: “Not just the boys. We can’t defend the North if only half the population is fighting.”

      Lord Glover (stands up): “You expect me to put a spear in my granddaughter’s hand?”

      (Me: “Shut the f*ck up and sit down,”)

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    17. ACME,

      I wasn’t Talisa’s biggest fan, but it was Robb who was the crowned idiot in that pair, poor boy.

      Hey now, Euron looks badass in his rockstar outfits, so there! 😜

      I was going to respond to a few good points that you made, however I started thinking about Davos and his way with words (except, or maybe especially, in the case of introducing people). My mind went back to the clip of him guarding Jon the Mostly Dead, the “apologies for what you’re about to see…” and drawing his sword bit, and how awesome that was. And how we speculated on what was going to go down!

      Then my brain meandered to Beric and his way with words (less to the point and more poetic, except to our poor dear Houndie) and I thought of the clip of him drawing his flaming sword and how awesome that was. And how we all speculated on what was going to go down!

      Davos has lived to a ripe old age (in that universe) by thinking ahead, dispensing generally good advice, and not for a second wanting power for himself.

      Beric has lived (and died, then lived, then died, then lived, etc etc) to a ripe old unnatural age (in that universe) by thinking ahead, dispensing generally sage if not always wanted advice, and only due to power from another.

      I forget what point I was wanting to make, but I want a Davos/Beric road trip and now it’s too damn late. 😠

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    18. I think that there will be a lot of main character deaths before the end.
      My feeling on “bittersweet ending” is that the Night King and Cersei are defeated, but at a huge cost in death and devastation across Westeros.

      A big plot point is the reaction of “The North” to Jon being a Targarian. I think this will cause a lot of split loyalty in houses and people. Possibly even Sansa becoming Queen of the north!

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    19. Pigeon: I forget what point I was wanting to make, but I want a Davos/Beric road trip and now it’s too damn late.

      Now that is the spinoff we deserve, want and need ! 😉
      I so hope Beric makes it to next season…

      Ten Bears: Lord Chickens*it didn’t even wait for plausible reason before he started bitching and moaning and second-guessing his king’s decisions.

      I am not entirely certain I know what you mean by “plausible reason”.

      In 7.01, Lord Glover did not disavow Jon’s rule in any way, shape or form; he merely disagreed with him which I do hope is still allowed without anyone shouting “treason”. ^^

      As for the cause of his disagreement, it may not be our cup of tea but it was perfectly understandable from Glover’s standpoint : teaching girls and women how to fight goes against millenia of tradition so Jon’s decision was bound to raise a few eyebrows. Furthermore, we do not know Lord Glover’s granddaughter. We do not know how old she is, we do now know how healthy or strong she is and we know nothing of her personality.
      If she is a healthy, tough, Arya-type fifteen-yead-old, then yes, Lord Glover was being overbearing and sexist. But what if she is a nine-year-old, fragile Sansa-type ? What if she is sickly, like Shireen ? What if the horrors she witnessed as a young girl traumatised her to the point of making her deadly afraid of weapons ? Would that give Lord Glover a decent reason to protest at the mere thought of putting her through physical training ?

      I think we also have to take into account a small detail the show has not addressed (and maybe never will) : Jon’s decision to train everyone is great on paper but, in reality, it is less than efficient.
      Do not get me wrong, teaching everyone the basics of self-defense is a brilliant idea; however honing a skill, be it archery or fencing or whatever other martial art is on the menu, takes years of practice. Arya emphasised that point when she mentioned how she had to shoot thousands of arrows to finally get her first bullseye.
      No previously untrained woman or child holding a weapon for the first time in their life is going to become an efficient archer or swordsperson in whatever little time is left before the Night King and his army arrives. Wights and White Walkers are incredibly hard to beat, even for grown men who spent most of their existence practicing. Jon, the Hound, Jorah, Beric, Tormund… They all struggle like all hell to defeat the Others. Yet, women and children with a six-month, half-baked training montage are supposed to manage ?

      So no, I have to confess that Lord Glover’s protestation did not upset me. It was perfectly in character : loudmouthy, frightened and traditionalistic. What did upset me in 7.01 was this : “I don’t plan on knitting by the fire while men fight for me. I might be small, Lord Glover, and I might be a girl but I am every bit as much a Northerner as you” (Lyanna Mormont)

      I am not even going to address how utterly grotesque it is for a four-foot-nine, seventy-pound, barely trained human being to believe sincerely s/he is going to defeat a White Walker because that is almost too funny for words. What I am going to address however is how thoroughly misogynistic Lyanna’s statement was, even more so than Lord Glover’s.
      For the second time on the show, we have a little girl disparaging stereotypically feminine activities to prop herself up, declaring traditional femaleness ineffective and pathetic as opposed to the wonders of traditional maleness. .
      Knitting, be it by the fire or anywhere else, is bloody useful : it produces clothes and blankets, among many other things. And considering that the harshest of winters is upon the North, one could think that clothes and blankets would be viewed as good, helpful things. Things that would prevent people from dying of exposure. Producing clothes and blanket en masse would save as many, if not more, lives as training neophites to shoot an arrow five inches off-target (as opposed to their pre-training ten inches). But I suppose Lyanna feels very differently; she appears to believe that you are useless unless you have a sword in your hand… And we are supposed to cheer her on ! That makes me less than entirely thrilled ^^

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    20. If she is a healthy, tough, Arya-type fifteen-yead-old, then yes, Lord Glover was being overbearing and sexist. But what if she is a nine-year-old, fragile Sansa-type ? What if she is sickly, like Shireen ? What if the horrors she witnessed as a young girl traumatised her to the point of making her deadly afraid of weapons ? Would that give Lord Glover a decent reason to protest at the mere thought of putting her through physical training ?

      Heck, some boys would have trouble with this (see young lord of the vale…..)

      I so agreed with what Glover said to Jon and Sansa, and cheered when he called Rob’s disloyalty out (even if foreign whore wouldn’t be my choice of words, Rob was an idiot, did break an oath and sealed his familys fate in that marriage) Some of the comments above made me consider loyalty and free speech through history.

      Certainly there have been countless times when loyalty
      shifted for good reason Jaime being a very good example of a good reason. Some who did so would be considerd heros by history even if they wouldn’t be by their peers. But can you disagree without being disloyal? I suspect it has to do with who requires loyalty – jon doesn’t care, the mad king would! Probably also has to do with how the disagreement is expressed – I’d call Davos one of the most tactful and diplomatic character in how he speaks to power. Others, not so much.

      And can I just say that ‘dog gone husband’ gave me my first belly laugh in the morning!

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    21. I strongly suspect Dinklage’s remarks suggest that Tyrion has indeed betrayed Daenerys to his evil sister Cersei, and will come to deeply regret it. Not just personally, but for all the unnecessary suffering and setbacks to the fight against the “Night King” it will cause.

      Also, I don’t think the death of characters is the only thing that could be considered “heartbreaking” or even “bittersweet.” Heck, GoT has been mowing them down for seven seasons now! Most often, continued life is the most heartbreaking thing that can happen to a character. I also consider “heroic” deaths, “saving” someone to be a big lazy cliche. (I’ll make an exception for poor Hodor.)

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    22. ACME: I am not even going to address how utterly grotesque it is for a four-foot-nine, seventy-pound, barely trained human being to believe sincerely s/he is going to defeat a White Walker because that is almost too funny for words.

      An obsidian-tipped arrow to the chest. A Valyrian-steel tipped arrow. A Valyrian steel dagger. Laugh it up. The Mormont women train at arms from a very young age.

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    23. I won’t believe Tyrion is conspiring with Cersei until I see it. I’ve seen suggestions for what and why he may have made a deal with her and none of them make sense considering EVERYthing. He may have some apprehensions about Daenerys’ “episodes” but he knows she has that good heart, they do have a good relationship and she treats him better than anyone. Remember the kneeling and how he put HIS whole heart into supporting her. He’d never do that for Cersei since despite being family, he knows she’s not fit to rule and really does despise her. The only real ‘deal’ I can see him making is promising to protect her and her unborn the best he can because she is family, but not to the point of impeding Daenerys’ goal.

      Ignoring anything else though, Jaime has left her because she’s cray cray and we assume on his way to Tyrion. Conspiring with Cersei is then essentially conspiring against Jaime as well, whom he does actually love.

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    24. What I am going to address however is how thoroughly misogynistic Lyanna’s statement was, even more so than Lord Glover’s.
      For the second time on the show, we have a little girl disparaging stereotypically feminine activities to prop herself up, declaring traditional femaleness ineffective and pathetic as opposed to the wonders of traditional maleness. .
      Knitting, be it by the fire or anywhere else, is bloody useful : it produces clothes and blankets, among many other things. And considering that the harshest of winters is upon the North, one could think that clothes and blankets would be viewed as good, helpful things. Things that would prevent people from dying of exposure. Producing clothes and blanket en masse would save as many, if not more, lives as training neophites to shoot an arrow five inches off-target (as opposed to their pre-training ten inches). But I suppose Lyanna feels very differently; she appears to believe that you are useless unless you have a sword in your hand… And we are supposed to cheer her on ! That makes me less than entirely thrilled ^^

      What’s actually the most misogynistic thing in this whole discussion is the ongoing assertion that when ONE individual girl or woman makes a statement about her preferences, acting from her perspective and her experiences, she is taken to indicate something about women as a whole and femininity as a concept.

      We don’t have these sorts of arguments about the individual actions of the male characters indicating a stance on masculinity or male roles, so can we all just chill out and let individual female characters act according to their desires? Because what’s at issue is not whether “traditional feminine activities” (which are, of course, highly culturally specific and malleable) are somehow bad, but rather whether or not female characters can make choices that you disagree with without being excoriated as a threat to a particular preferred definition of what it means to be female.

      Women are individuals. That’s the truly radical notion here. They have different opinions and ideas about what it means to be women. Let them follow their paths. If one gets killed by a White Walker as a result, I guess that shows that that particular path didn’t work out so well.

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    25. Clob,

      I have to go back and rewatch season 7 again because it’s been quite some time now since I’ve seen it, but I got the impression that Tyrion may have had a change of heart with Cersei once he realized that she’s pregnant. The only reason I could see Tyrion making some kind of clandestine deal with Cersei is if it involves securing the safety of her baby.

      Remember, as understandable as it is, Tyrion more or less destroyed House Lannister after killing Tywin. He also feels somewhat responsible for Myrcella’s death. I do wonder if there’s some subconscious feeling inside Tyrion that’s making him want to bring some type of restoration to House Lannister.

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    26. Mr Derp: The only reason I could see Tyrion making some kind of clandestine deal with Cersei is if it involves securing the safety of her baby.

      Yeah, as I wrote that is in agreement, that’s the only thing. Whether it being trying to talk Daenerys into sparing her if it gets to that point or secretly smuggling her to safety if she doesn’t agree to that. As he told Cersei, he doesn’t/didn’t want to ruin the family, but that doesn’t mean he wants her as queen.

      “I’ve thought about killing you more times than I can count.” That’s how Tyrion thinks about Cersei.
      “I think she would make the world a better place.” That’s how he thinks about Daenerys.

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    27. Clob,

      I don’t believe Tyrion is going to go all “heel” and switch sides by any means, but I do think the fact that Cersei is pregnant will complicate matters.

      I can see a situation where Tyrion makes some kind of secret deal with Cersei for the sake of the baby. Right now he probably doesn’t believe that Dany can have children, so he’s trying to secure an heir after Dany is gone, so he may decide that Cersei’s baby will be that heir, only to find out later that Dany is pregnant (allegedly) and has an heir of her own forthcoming. D’oh!

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    28. ACME,

      Lord Chickensh*t didn’t have any problems with 10 year old boys training to fight. He just didn’t want girls to train.

      KING: “…Everyone aged 10 to 60 will drill daily with spears, pikes, bow and arrow.”

      Lord Robett “Ran Away” Glover: “It’s about time we taught these boys of summer how to fight.”

      When facing an existential threat against daunting odds, yes, every able-bodied person has to be prepared to fight. That’s just the way it is.

      Because <em"when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."

      – Josey Wales, arming outnumbered girl, old woman, and other defenders facing imminent attack.

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    29. Ten Bears:
      Addendum to 1:26 pm Comment:

      Quote was from “The Outlaw Josey Wales” (1976), the best movie ever made.

      I think we’ve discussed it here before, but I agree. At the very least, the best Eastwood western. I’ve never seen a piece of hard rock candy and not thought of it as just ferr lookin’ through. 😉

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    30. ash: Heck, some boys would have trouble with this (see young lord of the vale…..)

      You are entirely right about this. Since the debate was framed as boys v. girls on the show, I stayed within those parameters but yes, many boys and men would struggle with the expectation of becoming battle-ready within the next six months. Sweetrobyn, Sam, Tyrion, Varys, Maester Wolkan, Ned Umber (poor kid, he looks less heavy than his sword)…

      But can you disagree without being disloyal? I suspect it has to do withwho requires loyalty

      That is true but I imagine it has even more to do with what we mean when we say “loyalty”. Is blind allegiance loyalty ? I, for one, would argue it is either sycophancy or a shocking lack of critical thinking. A government is not supposed to be a gathering of yes-men and super fans cheering wildly every time the ever-perfect Ruler expresses an idea, no matter how half-baked. Disagreeing, dissenting, criticising… None of that is disloyal at all, especially not when it is done frontally.

      That was one of the very good points Daenerys made in season 7 during her conversation with Varys : she demanded that, if need be, he criticise her to her face. That is what a good ruler should want ! Now, it also happens that Daenerys did not exactly follow through with the idea but at least, she had it so yippee ! ^^
      If Jon intends to rule, he is going to have to learn to deal with confrontation and opposition from within his camp. He cannot always fall back on the “we have so many enemies now, we cannot fight a war among ourselves” non-argument because his own people disagreeing with him or questioning him is not a “war” (and it is not treason either) : it is a debate. A debate he has to win not only to ensure their continued support but also to approach his own decisions more wisely.

      The more I think about it, the more I believe one of the causes for Tyrion’s recent dry spell, strategy-wise, is Bronn’s absence in his life. Bronn was Tyrion’s confident and unofficial adviser. He was his sounding board, so to speak. He challenged Tyrion at every turn and I have now come to think that this process was immensely beneficial to Tyrion. It used to force him to examine situations from angles he, for all his intelligence, never would have thought of on his own.
      I am almost tempted to believe that Jaime’s idea of abandoning Casterly Rock to focus on High Garden was at least partly Bronn-inspired. Bronn is the Lannisters’ muse ! 😛

      Probably also has to do with how the disagreement is expressed

      That is an excellent point too. Davos does have the know-how, the Mideas touch when it comes to phrasing his criticism with the utmost level of diplomacy and sensitivity. However, a ruler cannot reasonably expect everyone to be as good as Davos; s/he has to be prepared to listen to all criticisms, even not so delicately worded ones.

      zandru: An obsidian-tipped arrow to the chest. A Valyrian-steel tipped arrow. A Valyrian steel dagger. Laugh it up. The Mormont women train at arms from a very young age.

      I am sorry to ask but if Lyanna is as trained as you appear to think she is, why wasn’t she present during the Battle of the Bastards ? Jon was there, Tormund was there, even Davos who willingly admits he is not all that good with a sword was there… If Lyanna can fight, why wasn’t she there too ?

      In regards to arrows, considering that most White Walkers wear protective gear, those may not be as efficient as assumed : in the Three-Eyed Raven’s cave, the Child of the Forest’s obsidian-tipped spear did not even dent the White Walker’s breast plate (Meera lucked out by hitting him in the neck). So archers are not just going to need the right kind of equipment, they are also going to need extreme precision to aim specifically for the enemies’ “weak spots” if they want to make an impact.
      As for the dagger, it is a close combat weapon. It requires to be within an arm’s length of the enemy to be used efficiently. This is a White Walker, this is Lyanna Mormont. With only three feet between them, the safe bet is not Baby Bear.
      Could she kill a wight or even a White Walker ? Sure ! Sam did it. But like with Sam, it would be much more believable were she to do it almost by “accident”.

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    31. Clob: I won’t believe Tyrion is conspiring with Cersei until I see it..

      I agree wholeheartedly. Tyrion becoming disillusioned with Daenerys and no longer supporting her bid for the throne is a possibility; him aiding Cersei’s continued rule when there is at least one other option on the table… That, to me, is downright bizarre !

      Tyrion loves his sister much more than he is willing to admit and he most certainly is eager to protect his unborn nephew/niece, given the heartbreak Myrcella and Tommen’s deaths caused him. Cersei knows it; Tyrion told her so !
      I believe that is how she managed to fool him at the Dragonpit; she “accidentally” let him know she was pregnant so his emotions would blind him to the obvious, namely the fact that Cersei would never, not even in a million years, agree to any deal that would lead to her abandoning the throne. Tyrion knows her more than enough to know that but, with the fog of emotionality blurring his reasoning, he forgot.

      Ten Bears: When facing an existential threat against daunting odds, yes, every able-bodied person has to be prepared to fight. That’s just the way it is.

      I am not necessarily disagreeing with that logic. Nor am I denying that Lord Glover is sexist, like pretty much 98% of the Westerosi population. What I am arguing, obviously inefficiently, is that Lord Glover disagreeing with Jon, for whatever reason, does not make him a traitor. It did not make him a traitor in season 6 and it still does not make him so in season 7. It makes him what he has always been : a prejudiced man, set in his ways, who has been burnt enough times not to want to follow blindly someone he does not believe in.

      In regards to the existential threat the North (and all of the human race) is facing, we know its extent, you are right. Jon knows its extent. Daenerys now knows its extent. But the Northern lords ? They have never seen a White Walker or even a wight. They have no idea of what is coming. I am certain they believe Jon when he tells them that an army is forming north of the Wall however, I doubt they can imagine what it looks like.
      Daenerys said it best : “you ought to see it to understand”. Can Northerners, who have yet to see anything, be blamed for not getting it ?
      When Cersei decided to convince the Reach’s lords to abandon Lady Olenna, she did not just tell them “the Dothraki are coming”. She developed, she gave details, she ran wild with all the horrible consequences a Dothraki invasion could have. She gave them nightmares to ensure their full understanding and cooperation. What has Jon told his vassals about the White Walkers so far ? Has he even described them to his lords ? He apparently expects them to grasp the severity of the situation on their own.

      On a sidenote, the notion that every man, woman and child being weaponised is necessarily going to help against the White Walkers is not all that obvious to me, I have to admit. Indeed, the Freefolk, who have always been extremely ok with women and girls learning how to fight, still got completely massacred at Hardhome.
      More than anything else, including weapons and training, what the living need is a plan. And this is precisely what they do not have yet.

      Fierce as a Wolverine: when ONE individual girl or woman makes a statement about her preferences, acting from her perspective and her experiences, she is taken to indicate something about women as a whole and femininity as a concept.

      If Lyanna Mormont’s speech was solely meant as a way for her to express her own preferences, it could have been done incredibly easily : “I want to fight for the North ! I might be small, Lord Glover, and I might be a girl but I am every bit as much a Northerner as you.” Done ! That would have communicated her personal choice perfectly.

      Why even mention the “knitting by the fire” ? And why mention it to disparage it, to brand it as worthless ? Why feel the need to put down an archetypically feminine activity, in spite of its obvious use, in order to prop up an archetypically masculine one if it is all just a matter of personal preferences ?

      Lyanna wants to learn how to fight and I am happy for her. She should get to do precisely what she aspires to, without regard for the arbitrary limitations society puts on her gender. However, the choices of people who do not / cannot / will not fight are not less deserving or worthy than hers, not inferior to hers. This mentality is the one that led Randyll to rejecting Sam because he was not “manly” enough, not into “boy stuff” enough. It is not cute when Randyll does it and it is not cute when Lyanna does it either.

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    32. Colin Armfield:
      I think that there will be a lot of main character deaths before the end.
      My feeling on “bittersweet ending” is that the Night King and Cersei are defeated, but at a huge cost in death and devastation across Westeros.

      One comment I have been meaning to make in response to previous threads that have involved predictions, but always too late, is that “bittersweet” or “heartbreaking” does not necessarily mean a lot of main character deaths. For example, I think it could still feel like a bittersweet ending to me if Winterfell is sacked by the Army of the Dead, the Inn at the Crossroads was wrecked, and the NK somehow manages to destroy Kings Landing (will all the refugees and death this would all involve), but both Jon and Danerys survive (along with other fan favorites). The ending would be about putting back together a broken Westeros after all that “death and devastation.” And this could believably include Jon and Dany being forced to take the throne together to help that process, but not being able to be fully comfortable with each other given their family connection and the fact that Danerys needs to defer to Jon even though she continues to believe she was born to rule. I do expect characters to die, but not necessarily those who are most central to the story. It will be a feeling of victory tinged by loss and sacrifice that will make it bittersweet.

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    33. I won’t read too much into this but I do hope that the ending of this story is heartbreaking in the sense it’s tragic for some (but not all of our characters). If we don’t lose someone we care about and everyone has a happy ending it will be totally out of place with the rest of the story.

      Ps. I really enjoyed the advert with Peter and Morgan, great stuff.

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    34. ACME,

      “The more I think about it, the more I believe one of the causes for Tyrion’s recent dry spell, strategy-wise, is Bronn’s absence in his life. Bronn was Tyrion’s confident and unofficial adviser. He was his sounding board, so to speak. He challenged Tyrion at every turn and I have now come to think that this process was immensely beneficial to Tyrion. It used to force him to examine situations from angles he, for all his intelligence, never would have thought of on his own.”
      ———–
      100% agree with you. Excellent observation. Tyrion’s best and wittiest scenes were with, or as a result of his repartee with, Bronn. Tyrion hasn’t been the same ever since they parted. (And it was a great farewell scene too: “I hope to hear them sing it someday.”)

      To be candid, I thought their brief “reunion” on the walk to the Dragonpit in S7e7 was somewhat cold. I’m not sure why. Bronn was kind of being a d*ck.

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    35. ACME,

      “When Cersei decided to convince the Reach’s lords to abandon Lady Olenna, she did not just tell them “the Dothraki are coming”. She developed, she gave details, she ran wild with all the horrible consequences a Dothraki invasion could have. She gave them nightmares to ensure their full understanding and cooperation.”
      ___________________

      You sure are right. Cersei has a fabulous speechwriter. Must be my man Qyburn. Jon could use someone like him.

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    36. Ten Bears: To be candid, I thought their brief “reunion” on the walk to the Dragonpit in S7e7 was somewhat cold. I’m not sure why. Bronn was kind of being a d*ck.

      I was a bit disappointed with that brief reunion. I think the coldness was simply because they’re on opposite sides though. Hopefully not for long though. It would suck to see Jaime defect to the Targs/Starks while Bronn sticks with the Lannisters.

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    37. ACME,

      “Indeed, the Freefolk, who have always been extremely ok with women and girls learning how to fight, still got completely massacred at Hardhome. More than anything else, including weapons and training, what the living need is a plan. And this is precisely what they do not have yet.”
      ——-
      Hardhome was an ambush.
      The living have a plan: Mine DG and make DG weapons. They’ve done that. If the Free Folk at Hardhome had been prepared with DG-tipped arrows and torches, they might have..,,
      Nah. Who am I kidding. They were f*cked.

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    38. David A,

      “For example, I think it could still feel like a bittersweet ending to me if….the Inn at the Crossroads was wrecked.”
      _______________
      Oh no! 🤧 That would be a bleak, tragic ending!

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    39. Pigeon:
      ACME,

      One of my favourite scenes is when ol Robby gave Sansa/Jon/the audience a nice reminder and view of the real cost to those ‘behind the scenes’ in rival Houses’ conflicts. I think, if anything, perhaps it gave Sansa a bit of a realization (she’s a slow learner, but she DOES learn ) on the lives of the banners and smallfolk that helps in running things at Winterfell and in organizing the northerners in preparing for winter. Davos was the real star in appealing to the people on a more humble level, the guy is great at being blunt while at the same time not talking down to anyone. Or to the Iron Bank for that matter. Anywho, thumbs up for that scene, I still say.

      Then he was turned into a flipsy flopsy weathervane without substance which is such a disservice. The term “shit or get off the pot” comes to mind – he had good reason to say what he did to Sansa and Jon, but once you commit again after something like that, well…commit.

      I agree, part of Sansa’s education is learning how her brother actually screwed the North and how their people suffered.
      Now she’s doing all she can to hold the north together and now she sees how much these lords are no different then the southern ones.
      I’m pretty sure that Glover may be facing the North’s version of the QOT if he fails to keep his oath ( if the WW don’t get him first ).

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    40. Ten Bears: To be candid, I thought their brief “reunion” on the walk to the Dragonpit in S7e7 was somewhat cold. I’m not sure why. Bronn was kind of being a d*ck.

      Bronn is always kind of a d*ck 😛

      Joke aside, I completely get what you are saying. A slightly more emotional reunion would have been endlessly satisfying. But I suppose we have to take into account that a) it was not their real reunion (they had seen each other beforehand to “ambush” Jaime) and b) Bronn is a man of few emotional outbursts so even the simplest admission of care is very meaningful for him. His “yeah you too” may not be big for a normal person but, for Bronn, it is about as sentimental as he gets. Furthermore, I would argue that his whole schtick about delivering two traitors’ heads to Cersei was a whole bunch of horse manure : the lord (of foocking Blackwater) protests too much, me thinks.

      You sure are right. Cersei has a fabulous speechwriter. Must be my man Qyburn. Jon could use someone like him.

      Ha ha ! I have no doubt Qyburn must have helped a bit but we cannot deny that, when properly motivated, Cersei has one hell of a way with words on her own ^^

      Nah. Who am I kidding. They were f*cked.

      Best. Conclusion. Ever. 😀

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    41. Grail King,

      “I’m pretty sure that Glover may be facing the North’s version of the QOT if he fails to keep his oath ( if the WW don’t get him first ).”
      ______________

      Ha! We’re on the same wavelength. 📡 I had outlined a (fanfic) scenario a while back in which Lord Glover’s insubordination catches up with him. Lemme see if I still have it. (It was a Sansa/Arya good cop, bad cop response to Glover bitching about Jon…)

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    42. Grail King:
      I’m pretty sure that Glover may be facing the North’s version of the QOT if he fails to keep his oath ( if the WW don’t get him first ).

      The North : a beacon of democracy where bitching about the monarch gets you punished. ^^
      Reminds me of someone… 😛

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    43. Ten Bears,

      I will take your selective quoting as an effort at joking, but I do think Arya finding the Inn destroyed (the only place Hotpie has felt at home in the show) and learning of Hotpie’s sad fate (killed by bandits after the Inn’s destruction or a missing refugee or a raised wight) would add (note add) to the “bittersweet” nature of the ending.

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    44. ACME: The North : a beacon of democracy where bitching about the monarch gets you punished. ^^
      Reminds me of someone

      I’m not talking about bitching, I’m talking stronger then that, Sansa had no problem with the Lords speaking their minds, and she’s not Cersei.

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    45. Grail King: I’m not talking about bitching, I’m talking stronger then that, Sansa had no problem with the Lords speaking their minds, and she’s not Cersei.

      To be honest, I was not comparing any character to Cersei (though Arya did offer killing Lords Royce and Glover for speaking out but she did not carry it out so there is a massive difference right there). It was more an observation on us, the fans, and our willingness to brand a character a traitor just because he dared not fall over himself to praise the Starks, especially Jon 😉

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    46. ACME,

      Maybe she just thinks knitting is lame and boring and she feels like expressing that? I don’t know. Kind of like Sam thinks fighting is terrifying and realizes his contribution is going to rely on scholarship – and scraping off Jorah’s skin – instead of swordplay, and yet doesn’t feel the need to qualify or restrict his statements based on deference to not offending anyone else’s idea of masculinity?

      I don’t remember the exact quote, but does Lyanna ever say, “No woman should shame herself by participating in a degrading activity like knitting?” Or does she just say, “I’m not going to be caught knitting by the fire when these ice zombies show up, because I want to fight?”

      I knit. I like it. I have zero problem with Lyanna Mormont not being psyched about it though.

      I also have a sword. But I’m not offended by the fact that Sansa isn’t a swordswoman. And I don’t get annoyed when Sansa extends her domestic skills to organizing Winterfell for a siege – for that matter, I wouldn’t be offended if she were using her domestic skills to organize her own household and raise her kids or whatever. That’s her deal. She likes it. It’s not my thing, but good for her.

      Also, although fiber arts are very much “traditionally feminine” in some cultures, weaving and textile production are distinctly masculine skills in others. And in a number of cultures, particularly nomadic pastoralist and raiding cultures, women were taught to fight. So again, I think your interpretation of “traditionally feminine” is circumscribed by a specific cultural reference point, not a universally accepted idea.

      Anyway, I just think it’s an overreaction to get twisted up about Lyanna or Arya or Brienne expressing preferences for martial activities. There are plenty of women in the Planetos universe who are very traditionally (in the European mode) feminine. And there are plenty who aren’t. Good for all of them. It’s what makes this world interesting.

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    47. Fierce as a Wolverine: Maybe she just thinks knitting is lame and boring and she feels like expressing that? I don’t know. Kind of like Sam thinks fighting is terrifying and realizes his contribution is going to rely on scholarship – and scraping off Jorah’s skin – instead of swordplay,

      My memory may be failing me here but I believe Sam has yet to voice any disdain for martial arts of any sort. He is most certainly not into them, he is definitely not good at them but he has no negative thing to say about them. He just does his own thing, without feeling the need to comment on the activities in which he does not wish to partake. And that is a signifiant difference.

      The problem is not, nor was it ever, personal preferences or the use of one’s favourite or best talents in whichever field that may be; the problem is the need to devalue or criticise other people’s chosen fields to elevate one’s own.
      There is a difference between Lyanna saying “I will fight for the North !” or “I don’t plan on knitting by the fire while men fight for me.” The former simply states that she wants to fight and great for her, the latter implies that doing something that is in Westeros considered a feminine activity while men are fighting (an activity considered masculine) would be a waste of her time, a form of exploitation or laziness even since the men fight “for” those who knit and those who knit seemingly do nothing “for” the men.

      So again, I think your interpretation of “traditionally feminine” is circumscribed by a specific cultural reference point, not a universally accepted idea.

      My interpretation of “traditionally feminine” is circumscribed to the specific cultural reference point of the society inhabited by the characters, I believe. In Westeros, knitting is feminine, fighting is masculine.

      Anyway, I just think it’s an overreaction to get twisted up about Lyanna or Arya or Brienne expressing preferences for martial activities.

      Brienne once told a traditionally feminine woman “You have courage. Not battle courage perhaps, but, I don’t know, a woman’s kind of courage.” thereby acknowledging that courage comes in many forms and that wielding a weapon is not superior to any other, less masculine activity. It seems to me that this is quite different from “I don’t plan on knitting by the fire while men fight for me.”

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    48. David A,

      I’d prefer that the entire continent outside the Crossroads Inn is turned into a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Hot Pie, oblivious, walks out in his apron with a tray and asks: “Can I get anyone some more kidney pie? Anyone?”
      Fade to black. The End.

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    49. Mr Derp:

      Remember, as understandable as it is, Tyrion more or less destroyed House Lannister after killing Tywin.

      I would argue that a House that cannot stand after the death of its patriarch is not much of a House at all; after all, Tywin was a tad advanced in years and could have just as easily died of the flux or old age. I would further argue that the very idea of a House being destroyed after the death of its patriarch goes against everything Tywin stood for, and tried his damnedest to inculcate in his children.

      So, no, Tyrion is not responsible for the destruction of House Lannister. The Lannisters’ collective pride and hubris is responsible for its current state, and I don’t think Tyrion should feel an iota of guilt for having killed the man who would have executed him, by far the most cerebral, humane, and sensible of the Lannisters.

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    50. Ten Bears:

      Quote was from “The Outlaw Josey Wales” (1976), the best movie ever made.

      You and Saner Half will definitely get along. He’s told me more than once that The Outlaw Josey Wales was one of the chief inspirations for his doctoral dissertation, about the infamous Civil War guerrilla Champ Ferguson. (The characters weren’t that similar, but the worlds they inhabited were.)

      Incidentally, this is the first film I ever saw Clint Eastwood in, before I knew who he was. It made a very, very strong impression on me at age 11, and imho it’s aged beautifully.

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