The Night’s Cast Episode 23: Series Finale, “The Iron Throne,” Recap and Reactions

CAption

All hail the Starks — can we safely say they won the game of thrones? I think we can.

Well…it’s come and gone, folks. The series finale of the most epic, incredible series we’ve ever seen splash across our TV screens. We here at The Night’s Cast, the official podcast of Watchers on the Wall, have had time to let our Thoughts and Opinions marinate, and this week we recap and react — for the last time — to Season 8, Episode 6, “The Iron Throne.”

Join Axey, Vanessa and Samantha as they talk through happy endings, not-so-happy endings, their feelings on the show coming to an end, and what being a part of the incredible fandom has meant to them.

The Night’s Cast will be taking a short hiatus until July, when we’ll be recording a live episode at this year’s Con of Thrones in Nashville! Please join us in person if you can (you can get $25 off General, Valyrian and Kingslayer passes until the end of the day today) or keep an eye out for the recording to be released the week of July 15!

The podcast is available on iTunes and SoundCloud, and you can follow us on Twitter as well. Happy listening!

270 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Regarding the finale.. for anyone who saw the Last Watch last night did you catch that the narrator said END OF GAME OF THRONES right after Jon stabs Dany (during the table read). They showed Kit’s reaction and everyone applauded. It seemed that that could have been the original ending. That would explain so much why the dragon pit scene seemed so random to many. Did anyone else notice this and fall off their chair like I did?

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    2. Tron79,

      I think that was due to the editing of the programme not the actual script. Kit’s reaction to the whole table read was wonderful you could see the investment in his face and Conleith Hill’s reaction needed no words at all 😡

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    3. Carole H,

      Yeah that was just a matter of what footage was used.
      In fact wish there is a ‘directors’ cut of that documentary, because the table read covered a lot more than was shown.
      I would of liked to see more comments by other cast members than a few of principals and a few extras.
      There was a bit of the dragon-pit parley but not much catching ‘candid’ comments by the cast there.
      I will repeat myself: Kit and Vladimir were brought to Seville to throw shadows for fake spoilers…… Vladimier even worked the crowd…
      They put Lena and Kit into costume for a ‘sneaky peek’ in Seville to cast a fake spoiler…. and we saw we saw sneaky peaks of Tom Wlaschiha and Faye Marsay in the streets, but this documentary showed them in costume, but I don’t remember seeing any sneaks of that last year. I guess they were hoping someone would make pic and nobody did!?

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    4. I also caught that , “End of Thrones”.

      I wish they’d spent less on the extra guy and the food truck lady, but whatevs.

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    5. Boojam,

      I enjoyed the programme and without getting into the last season and the rights and wrongs, I’m sure we all have an opinion, I would like to applaud the cast and crew who worked incredibly hard on the whole series over the years, there is no denying their dedication 👏👏👏

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    6. Carole H:
      Tron79,

      I think that was due to the editing of the programme not the actual script. Kit’s reaction to the whole table read was wonderful you could see the investment in his face and Conleith Hill’s reaction needed no words at all 😡

      Ditto all. When I head that “end of Game of Thrones” statement during the table read, it caught me too, but they edited that sequence with time jumps. If a person follows the story lines the actors are reading from, they are jumping from one episode to another just with a cut and no other time passage device.

      ……

      I liked The Last Watch. It was a good look at some of the behind the scenes activity and dedication of the crew. I’m sure there were constraints on what the documentary folks could do, where, and who they could interview, etc. Emilia was wonderful and open with her thoughts. I can’t imagine having a camera pointed at me that early in the morning while having a bald cap and wig applied to my head. I am very happy they followed two of the producers around and talked to Nutter.

      Gee, I’m liking it more just writing about it here… The Head Snow man was interesting, I wouldn’t have thought much about his part in the production but you gotta have snow in GOT. In many of the “quick shot montage sequences” where they were just showing things under commentary voice-over, you could see all kinds of neat things. I’m specifically thinking of the Ghost prop.

      Vladimir the NK’s backstory was interesting and his dual role as a stunt man and the NK and how he hopes to do more fight choreography was a good insight into his world. Well, before I just start describing the show, I will leave it at I liked it a lot, I’m glad they did it, it is worth watching, and as Bernie said, when one of these crew members says they worked on GOT, any future employer will know they worked incredibly hard and know what they are doing. They have my admiration and thanks for that!

      And we have all the other features like The Game Revealed, etc. to add to our behind the scene resources and soon those costume, photos, and art books. For an epic TV series, it is well documented.

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    7. I’m sorry, I’ve supported the show for years, but I am firmly into the anger phase of grieving on the Kubler-Ross model, after passing through denial, I am now fully pissed off at how bad they ****ed this season up. It will live in infamy in the history of television. Man, I hope GRRM finishes the books and rectifies this situation somewhat.

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    8. Enharmony1625,

      Yes I can see they were all excited about Arya killing the Night king and it made for an exciting twist, but for me and this is my personal opinion before everyone gets on my back, the show has built up Jon and the NK and several confrontations for 7 years and then nothing, Arya does it, no I am afraid it did not wash. Anyway I am through the anger stage about this and much more and I can watch now for what it is without having the same reaction as Conleith Hill did.

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    9. Brandon:
      … how bad they ****ed this season up. It will live in infamy in the history of television….

      As a book reader and longtime show watcher and lurker on this site, I’m baffled by this sentiment. I just don’t see it. I feel this show is a masterpiece, in it’s entirety. That it will age extremely well and be remembered for its daring and its brilliance. I’ve loved it to the end.

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    10. Comments disappearing into the ether again. 😡 Let me try to post in segments…

      Part 1:

      • I just listened to the “Night’s Cast.” It appears that the experts concur that a little more exposition could’ve filled in some logical gaps instead of leaving it up to the viewer to come up with explanations.

      • In the week that’s passed since the last episode, I’ve kind of come up with my own ex post facto tinfoil explanations for some of the head-scratching conclusions, e.g., Jon Snow’s. (Details to follow if and when I can write something concise and coherent.)* I just wish the show would’ve spelled out or at least hinted at the logical links.

      • Before I go off half-cocked and full tinfoil….

      [to be cont.]

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    11. Part 2:

      • Before I go off half-cocked and full tinfoil….

      Questions for anyone who knows (probably book readers who are aware of the “laws” of the ASOIAF universe):

      Q #1. Am I correct in assuming that one of the consequences of Jon Snow’s parentage (i.e., that he’s really “trueborn” Aegon Targaryen rather than Ned Stark’s bastard son) is that he could not be and never could have been legitimized as Jon Stark?

      Q #2a. In S5e2, King Stannis offered to legitimize Jon Snow: “Kneel before me. Lay your sword at my feet. Pledge me your service and you’ll rise again as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell.”
      Hypothetically speaking, suppose Jon had accepted Stannis’s offer. (Alternatively, suppose Queen Daenerys had decided to legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark in S7, before either one of them learned about his actual parentage.)

      Would or could the legitimization be nullified after the fact when the truth came out?

      Q #2b: It’s my understanding that while legitimization is a monarch’s prerogative, it still requires at a minimum that the legitimized out-of-wedlock child was in fact the actual son or daughter of the father whose surname the child would then acquire, rather than some random orphan who doesn’t know who his father was, or a child who’s already the trueborn son of married parents and bears his father’s last name. Am I correct?

      [So it’s not as if a king or queen awestruck by a scrumptious meal could unilaterally declare to Hot Pie: “Kneel before me, lay your spatula at my feet, whip up six kidney pies to go, pledge me your services, and you’ll rise again as Horatio Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden.”]

      to be cont…

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    12. Northern Breeze,

      The show was great, seasons 1-6 were incredible, especially seasons 1, 4 and 6. Season 7 was a bit rushed but Season 8 was just bad, I was in denial last week about it, but I’m sorry it’s just how I feel. I appreciate all the actors, but the show really stubbed its toe on the home stretch imo, it’s a shame. I’ve sunk 9 years of my life into this, and I don’t regret it, but I have to admit that this show, at least to me, is not in the same class as say, Breaking Bad. And I never would have said that before this season. I couldn’t have imagined saying that before this season.

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    13. Northern Breeze,

      “Bad” in reference to GOT is a relative term. I’m on GOT fan site, obviously I like the show. The last season was better than most of the rest of what’s on television, but in my opinion it was by far, by far, the show’s weakest season, and so bad relative to the extremely high quality of much of the rest of the show. It’s sad to me it went out like that.

      Now why did it go out like that? Well, it was also rushed, like Season 7. I know there are real world reasons which required them, budgetary wise to cut the last 2 seasons short but to pretend that didn’t do damage to the quality of the show would be to ignore reality, at least from my perspective. With the last season, there was more to it than that, with the exception of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, there were no great episodes. The Long Night is probably the next best, I didn’t have a problem with it really, I wish the show had ended there to be honest. Everything else seemed really sloppy by GOT previous standards.

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    14. Carole H,

      I’ve written at length about this before, but let me just reiterate a few important points here on why Arya dealing the killing blow works.

      – It really brings her training and her time with the FM full circle. You might argue that instead of the NK, she could have killed Dany or Cersei, but that would not be any different to how she killed Walder Frey or Meryn Trant. It works perfectly in with her arc as serving the Many-faced God, and being a harbinger of Death herself, to kill the very face/representation of Death itself.

      – Jon’s role in fighting the AotD is not diminished by Arya killing the NK. Jon was still of vital importance in uniting people against the dead, bringing the threat of the NK to the attention of Dany and others, and leading the entire effort. Having another dragon rider up in the skies certainly didn’t hurt either.

      – If Jon had defeated the Night King in a 1v1 the way many were expecting, it would have diminished the NK’s power in my opinion. It’s a bit like, “Oh this ancient being of Death was defeated in a sword fight. Good thing Jon was a better fighter than him.” Arya was not even on his radar, whereas the NK knew about Jon and Dany and the dragons. What more perfect way is there for an unsuspecting assassin trained by the HoB&W to surprise him with the killing blow?

      I just think it’s weird that we love this show and story for subverting expectations, and then when it does that, there are complaints that there was all this buildup for an expectation that was then subverted. I don’t get that, especially when it was done so successfully here.

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    15. Brandon,

      I see. Oh well. I do feel for you (genuinely – no sarcasm) because I share your love for this show. It’s sad to me that many people seem to feel the way you do, that it went out on a low.

      To a degree I can understand the perspective that Seasons 7 & 8 felt rushed and that diminished the quality of the story being told. As a lover of the books, the show, and the characters I too felt a pining for more as the story has moved forward, though I have interpreted that feeling as an inevitable result of the way the show has been produced and presented: that is, as seasons and episodes. And while watching I was aware that Seasons 7 & 8 were the Third Act of this vast story and to really work as such the telling of the tale needed to be steamlined and paced efficiently, and that its stuttered episodic presentation (making it feel like the pace had weirdly changed) was a result of that plus it being a work in progress in a television format. Now that it’s done I feel it will go down wonderfully with viewers able to watch the story right through from beginning to end.

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    16. Last night’s show was loads of fun. I loved getting to see the nice fellow who was in charge of making very convincing snow and that lovely couple who worked in the background with the little girl who got to be a wilding child in the (chronologically speaking) last scene. And the woman who ran the food truck making pressed “buddie” sandwiches. Hats off!

      Also the extra with the great beard who played a Stark soldier. His enthusiasm was contagious. I hope he goes on to keep working as a performer. He’s what we call in America a complete ham and total fun.

      Come to think of it, all the actors in the show are probably complete hams as well. The kinds of people who if you saw them as kids at age 7 easily communicated their love of performing and playing in public. My thanks to all of them for taking that path. It would have been a far surer thing to become an actuary, chartered accountant, solicitor, barrister, engineer, etc. But instead, they took a chance on being performers and letting the rest of us benefit from the stories they brought to life. So hats off to all of them and the writers, directors, film crew, extras, etc.

      Vlad, the Night King – also a treat to watch. His enthusiasm was wonderful. Hope he gets to act more in addition to his great work being a great dancing master of mayhem.

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    17. Regarding Dany’s speech, Tyrion may have spoken or understood some Valyrian, but I think he and Jon were reacting to the tone of Dany’s speech. One of the interviews (was it Emilia’s Clarke’s?) mentioned that understanding the words wasn’t important but that understanding the tone and delivery was.

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    18. Enharmony1625,

      I agree with everything you’ve said here.

      In the case of the NK killing, my expectations weren’t even subverted. I’d thought in season 6 that Arya might be the one to kill the NK, because she was being trained to “die” herself by agents of the God of Death. And that seemed heavily foreshadowed when Bran gave Arya the special dagger in Season 7.

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    19. Ten Bears,

      You’re comments are always a delight to read ten bears. I never watched for instance Star Trek but I couldn’t stop reading what you wrote about it in another post.

      Brandon,

      For me 8 was better then 7, 2 or 5. But the rest better. It still had amazing moments.

      And yes breaking bad is just a master piece

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    20. Northern Breeze,

      Yeah, the dagger handoff was a big clue, but I somehow still convinced myself it would be Jon (possibly with the help of Bran in some way). Glad I was wrong. 🙂

      kevin1989,

      I also rank season 8 above 7 & 5 (my least favourite), but I must be one of the odd ones who really enjoys and appreciates season 2. It was a great season for Tyrion and especially Arya (which is probably why).

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    21. Carole H,

      Jon Snow saw NK in S5 for the first time. Their duel wasn’t built for 7 seasons.

      And this epic final duel is something that is completely out of place for GOT. This is not Harry Potter or Star Wars.

      Epic confrontation between Dark Lord and The Chosen One doesn’t belong in this story.

      D&D knew that and they even joked about it in The Long Night’s script.

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    22. mau,

      Breaking Bad had that ending because the story called for it. Walt suddenly being arrested by a random cop that jumps out of the bushes for example would have been horrific.

      I can’t think of a worse way to end a 60+ episode buildup of a TV show than having someone unexpected just randomly pop out of no where and end the plot….

      It is a good thing that Breaking Bad didn’t do that.

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    23. orange,

      The story called for real punishment and consequences. At the end he got everything he wanted. Money for his family, revenge for Hank and Jesse was free. And he died happy in his lab after killing those cartoon villians.

      If BB was scrutinized the way GoT was the whole show would completely fall apart.

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    24. Is there going to be a separate thread about the documentary The Last Watch ?
      There was no Season 8 Episode 6 Game Revealed , was there?
      I was thinking part of The Last Watch would include Benioff and Weiss speaking to the story, and it was not there.
      We never see them speak to the camera in the whole documentary.

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    25. About Jon and Tyrion listening to Dany’s Valyrian , I thought Varys would be there since he was from Essos and spoke Valyrian as his puppy tongue. As far as I can remember Coneth (as Varys) only showed his language skill once , tho that may have been twice? Not sure what happens to Varys then, Mel had said in 7 that he was to die in Westeros.

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    26. Enharmony1625,

      Well the problem I had with season 4 was the pacing. I ranked the lowest because of that. It was constantly shifting from one story to the next because every character needed to be in at least 8 episodes of the 10. 1 scene of that character one of that etc. Like dany story of season 2 would have been better for me if it was in 3 max 4 episodes. 1 episode for her scenes from episode 1 2 and 4. One of 5 6 and 7 and 8. And one of the final. Tyrion and Arya were just fine in that season. But others were shifting too much in my opinion.

      I’m more of a leftovers kind of pacing. Showing a real story of one character in an episode. Or a bit like got season 1,4,6,3 for instance or even 8. A lot of scenes from one storyline. And only shift to the next once you need a break from that storyline. Rather miss characters for 2 episodes and have a lot of them then. Just like the books. We don’t have 8 chapters for all characters per book. Some just 5. And we don’t read them for 200 300 pages.

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    27. mau,

      Agreed. And besides, Jon WAS the ultimate hero: he was the one who killed the final enemy (which was a much more emotional scene than the Good Hero having a sword fight against the Bad Guay). The climax of the whole story belonged to Jon in the end.

      This whole “Ice and Fire” story was based on two big threats: the threat of Ice and the threat of Fire. The former was obvious from the beginning, and was essentially a good vs. evil battle; and it turned out it wasn’t the endgame after all (a bold move!): that’s why having someone other than Jon killing the NK was the right move.

      The second threat was the ultimate twist, the one we didn’t see coming, because we followed Dany from the beginning, and we also “fell in love” with her, without realizing about the threat. This was the final conflict, a human drama with a “hard but necessary” choice that Jon had to make. Again, a bold move.

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    28. oierem,

      And dany would have been more dangerous to the world. She would not only killed them but they would have been submitted to a live of no freedom.

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    29. was thinking part of The Last Watch would include Benioff and Weiss speaking to the story, and it was not there.
      We never see them speak to the camera in the whole documentary.

      Heh, I think they are in an undisclosed location and do not plan to come back out until long after the dust settles (or star wars starts whatever comes first). I was pleased that they kept away from the cast and focused on the crew and on the small parts. The enthusiasm and joy they get from their work made me smile

      I still have not rewatched the season; too busy with work right now anyway, and other RL issues. Digesting and considering what everyone is saying, i think all I know for sure is that the cast and crew worked their hearts out, but that this season needed to be longer with more hints along the way for whats coming. i do need to just sit and binge watch, and I can rate each episode.

      BTW TB, I love your posts. You had me cracking up a few upthread – we need to have a TB show just to keep you making your points

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    30. Boojam:
      Is there going to be a separate thread about the documentary The Last Watch ?
      There was noSeason 8 Episode 6Game Revealed , was there?
      I was thinking part of The Last Watch would include Benioff and Weiss speaking to the story, and it was not there.
      We never see them speak to the camera in the whole documentary.

      I’m not sure if they will make a separate thread. I’ve commented some in this thread since parts of “The Last Watch” related to the finale. I consider myself an extremely motivated fan, and I actually dosed off twice during the two hours… I was upset at myself! I did rewind and watch what I missed. I thought it was great to give thanks to the crew and the extras. This was really their documentary, and it worked well to see what it’s like to walk through “Belfast Game of Thrones World”. Even though I personally wanted to see more of the main cast, this documentary was more about the people no one sees. That’s a two edged sword as they say.. If you don’t have some really mesmerizing personalities on the crew, it’s hard to stay totally engaged. They did spend alot of time with Andrew McClay, and he was engaging and totally passionate. I think since he was an extra, the camera crew could probably spend as much time with him as they wanted. Since he was a bit of a character, they might have thought he was a good one to follow. I personally wanted to see more of the table read and I wanted to follow Maisie, Nikolaj and other actors around the set more. I would have liked to follow the directors around even more than they did. I did like the parts where we got to see how David Nutter worked. I would have liked to have followed Sapochnik more.

      The crew actually seemed a bit scared of D&D when they heard they were going to be onset. D&D were only shown from a distance a couple of times, which is probably how most of the crew interacted with them.

      I definitely want one of those cool jackets! But definitely not a Bolton jacket!!

      I wonder what the ratings were like. I would love to see WotW write a review and also cover the ratings.

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    31. kevin1989,

      When I first heard about Star Trek: The Next Generation, the title itself screamed “stupid rip-off.” But it wasn’t. It was far superior to the original.

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    32. Tron79,

      Glad they followed Nutter and Sapochnik around.
      Nutter is a bit of a strange person, his health problem seem to have given him a problem with walking.
      Sapochnik did not seem to be kidding when kinda complaining about making Episode 3.
      I thought that was interesting.
      Seems we caught one glimpse of D&D directing Ep 6 , I could swear that Sapochnik was on set with them… which may have been the case.

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    33. mau,

      I’ve never watched Breaking Bad. It’s on my “to-do” list. However, I read that John de Lancie played a supporting role. He was fabulous as a recurring character in ST:TNG.

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    34. So here is my opinion about Danny’s death : at least 2 times Danny said”(regarding the Turlys burning alive, for example) ” That was necessary.” So was a dagger to her heart. Necessary.

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    35. Boojam,

      Sapochnik and Nutter were both executive producers, so it’s possible Sapochnik could have been onset with D&D. Although the look of D&D’s episode 6 was totally different than Sapochnik’s. For those film experts out there, what do you call the look D&D were going for? The scenes with Dany on the steps as well as the throne room scenes lacked a realistic look to them (on purpose). It was a larger than life type of look. I apologize for not knowing the correct film terms. Sapochnik’s look in his episodes were gritty, grizzly, and beautifully artistic with shots like Arya’s silhouette in the raining ash. It didn’t look like the same show to me. This isn’t a criticism of D&D, but the look of those scenes seemed out of place to the rest of the season. Perhaps it was a LOTR look they were going for? Maybe others can put this in the proper film terms (if you can follow what I’m referring to).

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    36. Kevin1989,

      I’ll have to pay attention more to the pacing of season 2 when I do my next rewatch, because I can’t remember it bothering me that much before.

      oierem,

      Yep. And Jon got his big moment in the end, which played far better into one of the main themes of his character: love vs. duty; the heart in conflict with itself. His line about “Did I do the right thing?” at the end is very poignant.

      Furthermore, the Night King is Arya’s last kill on the show, so defeating the God of Death is her last act before turning away from her list & revenge, and choosing life. Fitting!

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    37. The only thing I felt needed was a bit more on Bran, and make the war with the dead go to a second week.
      Outside of that, I’m okay with it .
      I also think D & D just may have switched two scenes around ( different road ) for Jon and Arya.

      What I don’t see people discussing here, on Reddit, Previously TV, etc. is how mother nature totally played havoc with the shows schedule, it literally knocked weeks off.

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    38. Enharmony1625,

      My ex post facto tinfoil explanation – if the site’s algorithms or my WiFi connection ever let me post it – is that Jon’s destiny and the reason for his resurrection were never to square off against NK or ascend the Iron Throne.
      Sticking it to “that horned f*cker” was a job for our little ninja warrior princess that was promised. 👸🏻

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    39. Grail King,

      “mother nature totally played havoc with the shows schedule, it literally knocked weeks off.”
      _______
      What do you mean? My 2019 calendar still shows 52 weeks in the year.

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    40. Enharmony1625,

      “Furthermore, the Night King is Arya’s last kill on the show, so defeating the God of Death is her last act before turning away from her list & revenge, and choosing life. Fitting!”

      _______
      Well, to be precise, it wasn’t until this very moment in S8e5 (Arya and Sandor last scene, at
      0:57 – 1:31) that Arya finally left the vengeance trail and chose life – thanks to Sandor physically holding her back and convincing her to abort her mission. Up until that moment, Arya was laser-focused on killing Cersei.

      (I think this may be my favorite scene in S8.Both Rory McCann and Maisie Williams flashed anger and then empathy in a minute or so of screen time. I got all misty-eyed when he held the back of her neck gently and looked into her eyes…and then as he was walking away she called out “Sandor! … Thank you” )

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    41. Tron79,

      Personally I liked their directing of season 3 and 4 better. And I think they should have directing episode 1 and let nutter finishing the show. But that’s my opinion.

      Enharmony1625,

      Bothering is a big word. Even season 2 is amazing for me. I watch it with lots of enjoyment. But for me it’s the season that has the worst or better the least best pacing of the show.

      I remember that back then there was a re cut from fans and put online that was better I can’t find it anymore. But it was less characters per episode and les episode per character. It flowed much better. And I remember D&D talk about that they had improved their pacing for season 3. And they did in my opinion.

      But still the least season or episode of got is better then what other shows deliver.

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    42. And I was thinking. People talk about we needed more of that or that and I was thinking did we really? Yes it would have been nice. But was in really needed. I’m wondering what my re-watch will tell. I think watching it in one run is better. I heard of people watching it last week and they only had issues with the last 30 minutes being a bit short. But the rest was just amazing in their eyes.

      I think watching week after week discussing things. Talking with people who didn’t like certain aspects of the show and we though “oh yeah that should have been in it” we cummilated all those missing parts and we felt the show lacked. But I think it didn’t. I think it will age good.

      I think it’s more like we in our country say: I’m hungry. But it’s not really hunger. It’s just a feeling of wanting to eat. Wanting more.
      Same with here. It didn’t need more. We were just hungry for more even when we didn’t need it.

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    43. Ten Bears,

      Yes, you’re right. What I meant was that she didn’t kill anyone else after the NK, so even though she did go after Cersei, she turned away from that path leaving the NK as her last (and perhaps the most spectacular) kill for her in the show.

      I have yet to decide what my favourite scene in season 8 is, but that one is definitely a top contender. I love it! Another contender is Arya’s farewell to Jon. The way Maisie plays it.. how Arya is trying to hold back the tears, but then the emotion just spills out and Jon wipes the tear from her cheek as they embrace.. just.. beautiful!

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    44. Ten Bears:
      Grail King,

      “mother nature totally played havoc with the shows schedule, it literally knocked weeks off.”
      _______ What do you mean? My 2019 calendar still shows 52 weeks in the year.

      I think Grail King means weeks in the “shooting schedule.” For a production the size of GOT, to lose a week or more would really upset the schedule. So many moving parts, locations, equipment, and teams, etc. it would be a nightmare to coordinate everything…but they did!

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    45. Tron79,

      Interesting – I just did a rewatch of the first two episodes and they were so spot on, just like the rest of GOT top episodes. Then watched three, and there were moments that were off, but it was still eccellent. Compare those with 6 and yeah, different feel altogether. Perhaps because it was after dany’s ‘turn’ (tho I would call it less a turn and m ore revealing her true colors) her on the steps doing her hitler imprsonation. but the feel was very different. I agree what someone said earlier, about perhaps it should have ended with dany’s death, and junk all the council meetings tht didn’t’ seem to fit, like they had been added on to tie everything up in a pretty bow.

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    46. ash,

      Yeah, D&D directed two other episodes in the series, however according to the credits they didn’t direct those together. They did one each. Both were great episodes (The Two Swords, which is right at the top of my favorite episodes, and Walk of Punishment.)
      Did you notice all of the “fade to blacks” in the finale? They usually don’t use that type of transition as much in other episodes. I can’t remember how many fade to blacks they had, but there were many. I seem to remember hearing somewhere the fade to blacks were a callback to the way LOTR was filmed. The throne room in Dany’s vision from the house of the undying didn’t have the same surreal look of the finale throne room (IMHO). And Dany’s dictator scene was just over the top looking with thousands of cloned unsullied. The melting of the IT was a direct callback to the melting of the ring in LOTR. Perhaps it was all just an intentional callback to LOTR in filming style. It’s been awhile since I saw LOTR, and I may need to do a rewatch. The finale did look and feel very different to me (like we just went to another planet as we went up the steps with Dany).

      All of this has helped me appreciate Sapochnik’s work even more. Episode 5 has really grown on me now that I’m not focused on why Dany did what she did as much. Sapochnik is the master of perspective in battles. He puts us right there in the battle watching through our character’s perspective. We followed Jon for much of the beginning and later took a journey with Arya. As I said in my other post, he created some of the most amazing artistic shots that I will never forget.

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    47. Enharmony1625,

      I’ll have to rewatch the farewell scene between Arya & Jon again. I didn’t notice the tears. 😥

      Here’s another contender for (my) top S8 scene. Tentatively, this one is in third place.

      (S8e2, on WF battlements, Arya sits down next to Sandor, says nothing)

      Sandor: “You never used to shut up. Now you’re just sitting there like a mute.”
      Arya: “Guess I’ve changed.”
      (Pause)
      Arya: “What are you doing up here?”
      Sandor: “What’s it look like?”
      Arya: “No, I mean what are you doing up here. You joined the Brotherhood. You went beyond the Wall with Jon. You’re here now. Why? When was the last time you fought for anyone but yourself?
      Sandor: “I fought for you, didn’t I?”

      0:00 – 1:21

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    48. ash,

      “…Perhaps because it was after dany’s ‘turn’ (tho I would call it less a turn and m ore revealing her true colors) her on the steps doing her hitler imprsonation…”

      ______
      I didn’t want to mention it in case I was seeing something that wasn’t intended, but that Darth Dany scene af the top of the steps addressing her troops definitely brought to mind newsreel footage I’ve seen of Hitler in front of throngs of enthralled Nazis.
      Replace the large Targ banner with a swastika and the similarities are eerie.

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    49. Enharmony1625,

      Here’s another contender S8e4, Sandor and Arya leave WF), though I wish it had been a little longer than a minute and twenty seconds (like, maybe an entire episode longer).

      I liked Sandor’s chuckle at the end.

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    50. Tron79:
      Regarding the finale..for anyone who saw the Last Watch last night did you catch that the narrator said END OF GAME OF THRONES right after Jon stabs Dany (during the table read). They showed Kit’s reaction and everyone applauded. It seemed that that could have been the original ending. That would explain so much why the dragon pit scene seemed so random to many.Did anyone else notice this and fall off their chair like I did?

      I took it to mean that there’s no more contenders for the throne. Hence “end of game of thrones.” That just left the aftermath.

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    51. Ten Bears:
      ash,

      Did you notice the news articles , last week, about Emilia watching the Leni Riefenstahl film?
      However that imagery, from Triumph of the Will , was used before in a prominent film , the end of the first Star Wars movie now known of as Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope.

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    52. Boojam,

      “Did you notice the news articles , last week, about Emilia watching the Leni Riefenstahl film?”
      ……………

      No I didn’t. I’ll look for it.

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    53. Yes the dialog between Tyrion and Jon , and then Jon and Dany is so cursory.
      Even from the speech that Dany gives, I don’t get the feeling that she has become a stranger to reason.
      I mean what if Dany had said her actions where too hasty?
      If she was willing to moderate her future actions?
      Would spoil the Shakespearean tragedy vibes wouldn’t it?
      I know that the show’s answer is she had gone bonkers, but that seems the sticking point , her father was Bug F***ing Nuts , and she went berserkergang…
      The story is gonna be Old Testament retribution at this point …. I wish they had made that case with a more emphatic framing.
      If the story had uncut my expectations at this point I would have been happier.

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    54. mau:

      this epic final duel is something that is completely out of place for GOT.

      (the camera cuts quickly to Cleganebowl)

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    55. Meg,

      Some of the others here commented that they thought it was just an edit.
      I think they are correct. Kit’s reaction clip is easy to find on YouTube and I watched it a few times and it looks like they cut from Kit’s reaction to a shot of D&D up front when Bryan said “END OF GAME OF THRONES”. It looks edited to me now that I watched it back.

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    56. I’ve been away (up in the true North!) and have now just about caught up with the posts, though not with all the comments. Some quick thoughts though – first, while I could quibble about some of the pacing (and about that ‘cut to black’ after Drogon flew off as I do think something was needed before the Great Council) I did find the ending and end points for characters very satisfactory.

      There are, for me, two reasons why Jon could not choose his ending, and both relate to ‘duty’ which has been presented as a central characteristic. One – he was the heir to the burnt Iron Throne, King’s Landing and the country around was in crisis, and had he been presented with a choice to stay or go he would (it seems to me) have felt duty-bound to stay. And two – had he been able to go to Winterfell and The North many there would have supported him over Sansa, and again with the devastation around Winterfell he could have felt obliged to stay…

      So, if his fate was to go north, he had to be banished/exiled to either the Wall or Beyond. The books (if we see them which I very much hope we do) may of course do this differently, and there are other characters who may come into play there…

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    57. spaewife,

      I don’t think the Northerners would choose Jon over Sansa. LF told Sansa that many preferred her over Jon and Jon had bent the knee to Dany – a very unpopular move. Jon was a good leader for the war, but Sansa is a better choice for the peace.

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    58. the biggest problem about the final episode is. it failed to pull my heartstrings.

      i didnt cry, didnt jump for joy, didnt rage in anger. i just feel, who are these people? why everyone doesnt acting like themselves?

      too quick.

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    59. Meg: But isn’t that the point about madness? People who are mad don’t know that they are. From their POV they are acting rationally.

      But , for me, the narrative did not convince me that was true.
      David Benioff said that from season 1 when she watched her brother die that was the foreshadowing , and other such incidents along the way , that’s ok, but D&D did not push enough dramatic buttons in S7 and S8 to convince me she was going go Able Sugar.

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    60. My most favourite scene was the Jon / Arya goodbye. I was moved to tears by it watching Arya’s eyes uncharacteristically well with tears and Jon’s sweet attempt to wipe her cheek to comfort them both. The actors both sold the love between these two siblings and their grief at saying farewell. In my head, these two will see each other again.
      I love Maisie and Kit both as they played my favs from the books but as actors, they brought all of their scenes. I realize not all will agree but it’s how I feel.

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    61. Enharmony1625,

      Thank you for your Pov and while I see where you are coming from I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree. BTW I’ve never watched Harry Potter or Star Wars.

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    62. Ten Bears,

      I love how the only two people that have made Sandor chuckle are the Stark girls. And I completely agree, I wish that scene would have been longer. I also would have loved another scene between them on the way down to KL. My favourite scene between them has to be their final one in 8×05 though!

      As for other (Sandor-less) scenes with ASNAWP, I love the end of 8×05 when she wakes up and sees all the destruction around her, then rides off on the horse. It’s such a beautiful representation of her salvation. We also see Arya shed a tear for the girl and her mother she tried to save. This whole sequence was masterfully acted by Maisie!

      [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R05vSDx_Kww&w=560&h=315%5D

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    63. Raemontarg89,

      For me episode 1 and 2 were high in emotion.
      Episode 3 had me with jorah and the ons death.
      Episode 4 had me feeling warm and happy at the beginning of the episode. Second part felt better first time watching it second time not so much the lady Stark dropped from my favorite to least favorite of season 8.
      Episode 5 was the episode where I felt the most of the whole season. Adrenaline was rushing through my body. So probably my favorite of the whole show. I cried for cersei, Jaime and Jon etc.
      Episode 6. First part. Amazing I think if this was a standalone it would have had a 9.5 rating
      Second part season 6. It made sense what happened. And was logical how everyone ended. But it was missing some scenes. I can overlook episode 4 because it was a middle episode episode 6 was the end and it should be perfect. Still at least a 8 for me that episode.

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    64. Boojam,

      Not? I always felt something was wrong with her from her death of her brother. And I didn’t cheer als many with season 3 and 4. I always found her actions to be horrific and not a good foreshadow of what she will bring to westeros. I always felt she was deluted in her own sense of what was right. And everyone else is wrong. Yes she listen to her advisors as long as they had the same end goal of what was good.
      I never bough in her being the hero. Yes I think she as a hero in episode 3. But still she called it Jon’s war. Not her war for the safety of her people of westeros.

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    65. Ten Bears,

      Why do you think this? I’m not sure I see the connection between Jon’s resurrection and the NK.

      It’s one of the problems I have with this last season, is that there doesn’t seem to be a connection between some of the pivotal moments in previous seasons, and the end of the story. When I saw how Hodor became Hodor, I understood how GRRM had carefully crafted this element, and others, such as Dany’s vision when in the House of the Undying, and at the end when we saw the snow was really ash (ice–>fire?) So Arya’s face magic didn’t figure in at the end, John’s resurrection, etc, didn’t figure in either (to me). All the angst throughout the entire show, I would have expected a better ending for Aegon Targaeryen. No Prince Who Was Promised. It’s still GRRM’s story, and always was. They’ve known how it ended since the beginning and the show was crafted to lead up to it. But still.

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    66. Isabelle_M,

      Jon was resurrected to lead the North against the Night King.

      And then he stopped Dany’s tyranny.

      What else did we need? Those are two massive, globe-altering events.

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    67. trarecar,

      I was expecting more cast commentary, honestly. It was awesome to see all the work going into the set. I truly love seeing the creation of the buildings and costumes come together… but, this may sound a bit cold, they didn’t need to do things like listen in on the phone conversation between mother and daughter. More focus on the cast or interviews with D&D would have made it feel even more satisfying. I’m glad Emilia got a few words in during makeup time.

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    68. Keet!!!!!!!!! Keet!!!!!!!!!!

      I thought the documentary was great. I’ve always appreciated all of the hard work and sacrifice that went into making this show, but to actually see it play out makes me appreciate it even more.

      They really focused on that one Stark extra quite a bit. He was amusing, but I could’ve used a bit less of him.

      I really enjoyed seeing Dany’s last shot. Same with Jon, Davos, and Greyworm. It was fascinating to see how random their last shots were. I think Dany’s was when she told Jon “the dead are already here” and Jon’s was when he was he was walking through the KL carnage trying to stop Greyworm from executing the Lannister POW’s.

      Seeing Sophie still emotional after the take with her crying over Theon’s death ended was touching to see. Sophie really got into character for that scene.

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    69. Boojam,

      Yeah, that does not surprise me at all. That film cast Leni as one of Hitlers prime propoganda leaders. She died a few years back, age 100 or so, still refusing to apologize or condemn her leader. Still amazed she was never on trial as a war criminal… (btw it just occurred to me – I know ‘Dany’ is short for Daenyrs, but it is all so close to “Leni’ Probably just a coincidence)

      D

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    70. Ten Bears,

      Oh that was very much intentional. That film is even now terrifying to watch in its artistry and message, when one sees the rise of Nationalism here, in Europe and elsewhere. Those of us of who are children of WWII survivors were taught growing up ‘never again!’ Sad to see history repeating itself (funny cartoon: two professors talking, one says ‘those who forget history are condemned to repeat it’ and the other says ‘those who remember history are condemned to watch others repeat it’) To bring this back to GOT, it showed anyone watching just what Plantos had to look forward to should Dani truly get power, and why Jon had to kill her.

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    71. Ten Bears,

      You MISSED Arya’s tears ! ?
      I think that’s a first for you; missing anything Arya. LOL
      That was wrenching.

      I see some thought they PS Sansa too much, I think it was just heavy make up to help hide all the tears.
      NO WAY ! these three could do these scenes without breaking down.
      I was amazed how Isaac held it; maybe he did his with stand in’s for his sisters.

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    72. As for how the main villains died. It all make sense if you look at the themes of the story. I think somebody already said it here.

      White walkers: embodiment of death. Arya served the God of death. And she turned against the God of death in 6×08.
      Cersei: emodiment of a tyrant. Killed by a tyrant who wanted to stop all tyrants.
      Dany: this death was the battle between duty and love. The real battle of the heart. So it’s logical that the deaths were because of those people.

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    73. Brandon,

      I’d been trying for a week to choke it down, despite several conversations with co-workers who feel equally let down (all non-book readers, btw), but yesterday morning I had a very long conversation about it with my bff. She’s never seen the show but knows how much I love it, and when she asked for my reaction it turned into an hour-long rumination about writing for print, writing for film and TV, SF and fantasy, production values, our collective wonder when the first LotR movie was released, etc. I’ll always have the deepest love and respect for this incredible cast and crew, and the incredible world they brought to life. I’ll watch the documentary in the next week or so (I’m preparing for surgery Thursday and will be on medical leave). And I know I’ll watch the show again, although I might stop at “The Winds of Winter.” Game of Thrones, and the fandom here, helped pull me through a very difficult part of my life. It’s terribly ironic that I find myself really down not as much because it’s ended—although there’s certainly an element of that—but how. And it’s terribly ironic that D&D, who lionized the power of stories through Tyrion’s plea for Bran, essentially walked away from the one they themselves fought to bring to the screen.

      I really, really look forward to Con, and I know I’ll get at least two of the books being released this fall. But a girl would be lying to herself, to a man, and to the Many-Faced God if she did not admit, in her great-uncle’s immortal words: “I’m disappointed.”

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    74. Tron79:
      Ten Bears,

      She teared up when Jon said, “You have your needle…”Arya says, “right here” and then a tear rolls down her face (as it does ours)

      I saw two tears; first one dropped quickly past her chin, second kind of rolled down.
      No way those 3 got through this scene without some breaks for composure.

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    75. Tron79,

      My gut response to your question is that the cinematography in Ep5, especially the ending scenes to which you referred, was heavily inspired by Akira Kurosawa, whereas the cinematography of Ep6, especially the opening scenes, was far more Leni Riefenstahl. The markedly different use of color (or lack of) might account, at least in part, for the feeling that they’re from different shows.

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    76. Ten Bears,

      … personally, I still can’t get over this lacklustre conclusion of Jon’s story. After finding similar criticism in many of video&written reviews as well as in the comments following my past post on Watchers, the implausibility of his ‘cancelled’ showdown with the NK and final exile has become only more striking to me. (Thanks for your replies over there btw, but I just didn’t want to continue that discussion thread or I’ll never stop lamenting about how they wasted the unique potential of Jon’s journey + character.)

      I can’t wrap my head around the fact that the Targaryen heritage just ends in nowhere, and that Jon – whom all the realm has to thank for surviving the Long Night, as Tyrion told everyone in S8E1 – will be forced to stay out of the 7 Kingdoms forever, without even being allowed to return to the North or Winterfell, his home. How is never seeing the Stark family or the North and its people again supposed to make him happy?
      He won’t be allowed to have his own family or children either (despite this being heavily hinted at in S7), and Bran as his ‘brother’, who could pardon him after the Unsullied have left Westeros, seems to be totally fine with that. Even though he knows that Jon is the last Targaryen and Blood of the Dragon, not to say heir to the throne.

      The common argument that Jon doesn’t want the throne and has no interest in power (again: it’s the same with Bran, now why is it so fitting for Bran to rule?), or that Jon would be happier in the Real North with the Freefolk is not the point. Him removing himself from the game as Maester Aemon did is also not a valid point in my opinion, because he has a totally different backstory and a long built-up role in ASOIAF, unlike Aemon.
      And even Aemon went to the Wall with all the world knowing him for who he was, whereas Jon is still just Ned Stark’s bastard to the world. He himself might be fine with obscurity – but when the carefully cultivated secret of this whole story is just completely dismissed at the end without any mentioning or justification, it feels illogical and wrong.

      This is why all these explanations for Jon’s ‘happy peace-out’ sound too simple (or lazy) to me, they don’t delve deep enough into the complex character of Jon Snow and the vital role he played in this epic. It’s like self-consolation on a superficial level when you know what the distressing result is and try to talk yourself into liking it.

      The point is: Is Jon supposed to be removed from the world (7 Kingdoms), based on the narrative logic of GOT/ISOIAF?
      The books could make the lead-up to his ending more credible, I hope. Because the show absolutely failed at offering a plausible and satisfying conclusion for a wonderfully crafted, enigmatic character. Unlike the openly dominant dragon queen Daenerys, there was always more to Jon than would meet the eye (as Tyrion said about Northern fools in S7). His character arc in previous seasons was formed by action (f. e. becoming Lord Commander, fighting WW and meeting the NK, becoming KitN…) and revelations (R+L=J, meeting Drogon, riding Rhaegal…). But he seems unnaturally hamstrung in S8, made silent and inactive by his writing, only to take action at one crucial point when he kills Dany, and afterwards to be eliminated forever through exile.

      Wasting the central storyline like that is even worse than turning Dany into a villain too fast – her monumental, tragic failure was at least acceptable as a character ending, even though the way they got there was insufficiently crafted. Jon’s story arc, which was filled with prophecies, secrets, and deliberate foreshadowings ever since S1, was drained of all its power and relevance in the end. This handling was really the biggest weakness of the final season, because it’s connected to the core narration of ASOIAF.

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    77. Kevin1989: People talk about we needed more of that or that and I was thinking did we really? Yes it would have been nice. But was it really needed.

      Yes, there’s plenty that was “really needed.” If one watches only for spectacle and Hollywood-type “emotion”—the sort that’s spoon-fed to viewers, complete with visual and musical cues telling them how they’re supposed to feel—it’s fine. But as soon as one starts thinking, it falls apart. To give you just one example, one of the greatest mysteries at the heart of the story, that of Jon’s parentage, was exceptionally poorly handled. All that buildup and all those revelations for… what, exactly? As with so many other things, there was no follow-through at the end. Why, in the name of the old gods and the new, would the heir to the f*****g Iron Throne, a reputedly kind, sensitive man who sometimes traveled among his subjects disguised as an itinerant musician, abandon his noble-born wife and children to elope with the headstrong daughter of the Warden of the North (who was already betrothed to another)? He had his marriage annulled, risked war with both Dorne and the Stormlands (and got the latter), left his wife, beloved by all, and their children at risk of exile at best and assassination at worst, because…? Why did Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, a Dornishman (!), defend this insanity to the death? There is nothing, nothing anywhere in the show that explains any of this. It was all built up over a decade’s time and just left unanswered, along with dozens of other things. WTF?

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    78. Enharmony1625,

      Only caveat Ill add is Arya did not become No One. She was trained and learned much but she doesnt worship the many faced god and she never accepted being No One.

      I honestly half expected a faceless man to come back and kill her for basically taking advantage of the system, learning all the tricks, saying peace out and then acting as a rogue vigilante faceless man wannabe. Faceless Men dont go around killing people due to personal vendetas. She totally went rogue.

      If people want to complain about something that really should be in there.

      Everything else in the context of the show made sense. Jon should have been the one, but Arya was not on the NKs radar so it worked.

      I disagree with people who say the season 8 sucked. Inconsistent at times ok, but far far from suckage.

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    79. regarding the documentary…

      Mr Derp:

      Seeing Sophie still emotional after the take with her crying over Theon’s death ended was touching to see.Sophie really got into character for that scene.

      Yes! That really touched me too, even after “cut” the emotions and tears were still flowing.

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    80. Enharmony1625,

      That clip still gives me major chills. Such stirring music, stunning cinematography and Maisie’s strong acting combined to show the utter devastation.

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    81. Boojam:
      Carole H,

      Yeah that was just a matter of what footage was used.
      In fact wish there is a ‘directors’ cut of that documentary, because the table read covered a lot more than was shown.
      I would of liked to see more comments by other cast members than a few of principals and a few extras.
      There was a bit of the dragon-pit parley but not much catching ‘candid’ comments by the cast there.
      I will repeat myself: Kit and Vladimir were brought to Seville to throw shadows for fake spoilers…… Vladimier even worked the crowd…
      They put Lena and Kit into costume for a ‘sneaky peek’ in Seville to cast a fake spoiler…. and we saw we saw sneaky peaks of Tom Wlaschiha and Faye Marsay in the streets, but this documentary showed them in costume, but I don’t remember seeing any sneaks of that last year.I guess they were hoping someone would make pic and nobody did!?

      I think that scene with Kit and Lena was at the time we saw Kit filming on the stairs with brothers of the night’s watch in Dubrovnik, unrelated to his fake-out at the dragon pit filming. We all thought it would mean Jon and Cersei meeting, but it seems it was half faked. The scene with Jon and the brothers of the night’s watch was clearly real and the scenes with Cersei fake. They were working that fake scene though as Lena even posed through the window-like window at one point looking straight at the paparazzi. Sophie and Isaac were spotted in Dubrovnik at the same time (Maisie must have been using her stealth skills in real life too because she wasn’t spotted I don’t think) – so they probably filmed the Stark farewell scene at the same time.

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    82. Wolfish: Leni Riefenstahl

      Thanks so much. I’ll have to do some research on Akira Kurosawa’s films.
      Regarding the Hitler references, that’s a tough one for me. I am visiting Poland and three of the concentration camps in Europe this summer with our synagogue. We end up in Berlin for the last three days. I honestly don’t want to think of Dany that way. You’re right that I think that’s what D&D were going for. It had that awful look. I can see how they tried to make the Targ flag look the same, but I wish they wouldn’t have gone there with Dany. And the scene looked fake to me. I couldn’t believe there were that many unsullied and Dothraki left. Dany was not one of my favorite POV characters, but I didn’t want to see it end that way for her (going from someone we loved to someone who was like.. I honestly can’t even say his name again)

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    83. I watched the documentary last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. After reading comments that it didn’t cover the stars of the show, I think it helped me enjoy it more as I knew what to expect. I think it’s wonderful a few of the crew and an extra got a chance to shine. Everyone poured their hearts and souls into this show, yet only the show runners and cast seem to get public recognition for it. It was so nice to see other people in this wonderful ensemble. I especially liked the prosthetics/make-up couple. She was so not what I would expect from someone working on GOT. I found the scenes surrounding their daughter particularly touching and loved their proud faces when she was an extra in the final shot of thrones.

      I also loved seeing the painthall. Back when they were about to start filming season 4 (so way way back really), my husband, my son and I managed to get a tour around the painthall because our good friend was one of the art directors that season (he designed and ran several sets that year). They were weeks from filming and I was so super psyched to be walking around the sets. We even took turns to sit on the iron throne. Watching the documentary brought back so many amazing memories of that trip. I really wish my friend had stuck with Thrones, but he only did that one season and then moved onto Star Wars, so I guess I can’t blame him! It wasn’t as huge a show then as it is now, but I do wonder if he wished he’d stuck with it (though watching the lady who was in charge of the KL set speak, who sounded well and truly fed up, maybe he wouldn’t be so happy to have stayed on).

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    84. Tron79,

      I totally understand. I’m fine with her “breaking bad” (it really had been foreshadowed), but the fascist aspect of it was a surreal jump into our own world, beautifully and chillingly done as it was. I think of Daenerys more as a Genghis Khan, although Khan really DID rise from nothing with no birth name. Genghis Khan united the Mongols and accomplished a phenomenal amount of good for those who accepted conquest unconditionally. Those who didn’t, however, were mercilessly and completely crushed. In terms of GRRM’s world, imho Khan is a much better model than Hitler.

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    85. Che: I think that scene with Kit and Lena was at the time we saw Kit filming on the stairs with brothers of the night’s watch in Dubrovnik, unrelated to his fake-out at the dragon pit filming. We all thought it would mean Jon and Cersei meeting, but it seems it was half faked. The scene with Jon and the brothers of the night’s watch was clearly real and the scenes with Cersei fake. They were working that fake scene though as Lena even posed through the window-like window at one point looking straight at the paparazzi. Sophie and Isaac were spotted in Dubrovnik at the same time (Maisie must have been using her stealth skills in real life too because she wasn’t spotted I don’t think) – so they probably filmed the Stark farewell scene at the same time.

      Ah Dubrovnik, yeah that must have been it. Tho there is a photo Lena and Conleth together in Seville ,tagged as being in 2018 , also pics of Lena around Seville … and Kit was in Seville too but we never saw Kit and Lena on the streets. In fact Kit seemed to vanish from Seville. I am doing all this off the top of my head, so….. I also remember that Emilia was never spotted in Seville. As I said Faye and Tom were spotted on the streets in Seville… and by the way… the documentary showed Faye on set , not in costume, at the dragon pit talking to the actors there. Then they put Tom and Faye in costume but unlike Kit and Lena there are no ‘accidental’ sneak pics , that I know of … of them in costume.
      Wasn’t there also a ‘sneaky peek’ pic of Lena and Hafþór in costume in Dubrovnik last year also?

        Quote  Reply

    86. Tron79,

      P.S.: I was thinking specifically of Kurosawa’s Ran (1985), his famous Japanese King Lear. I saw it in the theater when it was released; I was 15 and totally blown away. I haven’t seen it in years, and am now tempted to revisit it.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Wolfish,

      Slippery slope to start conflating books and show. While many of these elements you mention are present in the show, together with various prophecies, they aren’t given nearly the same prominence Martin affords them.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Wolfish,

      I saw it too. It is one of only two movies that ever gave me a physical feel of the weight of the story in my body. The other one was probably “Festen” by Vinterberg.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Mr Fixit,

      But I’m not. ALL those elements are in the show, and leaving those questions hanging was terrible storytelling. As I noted in an earlier comment, the people with whom I’ve been having face-to-face conversations about this aren’t book readers—and they’re as perplexed and disappointed as many of us who are. There’s a lot missing that doesn’t have to do with having the bigger headcanon of having read the books, but simply having expected to have certain questions answered.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Such a shame you didn’t like the finale, I thought it was brilliant and a top 20 episode of the series. As you know I’ve been calling out Dany being the villian since series four so it was no surprise to me.

      Also Vanessa read leaks, I didn’t think there were any this year apart from episodes coming out early.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      Well, you know how I feel about any scenario in which Arya would have died. 🙂 But in seriousness, there are a few things around her Faceless Men plot that perhaps left some questions in the air. After having some time to think about it after the end of the series, this is how I interpret it.

      The Faceless Men did try to kill her for abandoning them and not killing the target they gave her, but Arya “Not Today” Stark killed the Waif instead, so the debt was paid and a face was added to the hall. At that point, Jaqen had no cause to kill her, so he had no choice but to let her go. The fact that she basically was a rogue Faceless assassin at that point was on Jaqen — his mistake, his screw-up.

      Besides, she only used her FM powers once since leaving to kill the Freys. How would Jaqen have known that unless he was following her around? Seems like he had better things to do than that.

      I suppose we could wonder if that was Jaqen’s plan all along, or that he had some vested interest in having Arya return to Westeros to kill the NK. I choose not to think so. As per the show, I think Jaqen just saw in Arya a talent for being a FM and recruited her for that purpose.

      The whole purpose of her FM plot is to show how pursuing revenge can cost you your very self — your identity. It did seem for a brief period that she was No One (after drinking from the pool in season 6), but after seeing the play and refusing to kill Lady Crane, she rejected it all and retook her identity as Arya Stark.

      It’s certainly possible that there could be more to it in the books, but for the show I think it all worked, and I’m satisfied.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Wolfish: Yes, there’s plenty that was “really needed.” If one watches only for spectacle and Hollywood-type “emotion”—the sort that’s spoon-fed to viewers, complete with visual and musical cues telling them how they’re supposed to feel—it’s fine. But as soon as one starts thinking, it falls apart. To give you just one example, one of the greatest mysteries at the heart of the story, that of Jon’s parentage, was exceptionally poorly handled. All that buildup and all those revelations for… what, exactly? As with so many other things, there was no follow-through at the end. Why, in the name of the old gods and the new, would the heir to the f*****g Iron Throne, a reputedly kind, sensitive man who sometimes traveled among his subjects disguised as an itinerant musician, abandon his noble-born wife and children to elope with the headstrong daughter of the Warden of the North (who was already betrothed to another)? He had his marriage annulled, risked war with both Dorne and the Stormlands (and got the latter), left his wife, beloved by all, and their children at risk of exile at best and assassination at worst, because…? Why did Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, a Dornishman (!), defend this insanity to the death? There is nothing, nothing anywhere in the show that explains any of this. It was all built up over a decade’s time and just left unanswered, along with dozens of other things. WTF?

      as soon as one starts thinking, it falls apart

      Well, not really. There are those of us who think for whom no more was really needed, as much as we might have wanted more.

      Considering your example, I’ll look forward to the more deeply layered context the books can provide but as a story this made perfect sense to me the way it was presented in the show. Rather than hinting about prophecies Rhaegar may have been motivated by in risking the realm for Lyanna (and naming a second son Aegon), the show had it be love. For which Rhaegar abandoned his duty – and reason – throwing the realm into war. And those are the questions Jon has always needed to confront: love vs. duty (and reason, affirming to himself “you are my queen” over and over again in the face of reasonable doubts). And the relationship of freedom to love and to duty.

      Why did Rhaegar assign his two best Kingsguards to defend Lyanna and her child? He loved her more than anything and was willing to risk all. Unwise? Yes. Out of line with what the show told us about his character? Not necessarily. In line with what the story tells us about how the human heart in conflict with itself results in needless careless actions and suffering? Yes. Will Jon/Aegon follow in his parents’ footsteps and continue the pattern of acting unwisely by abandoning his duty to the realm because of love? It becomes the central theme of the end of the story. In the end he chooses duty, is broken because of it, yet ends up with freedom he never would have been able to have if he’d gone with love, tragic though the nature of that freedom is.

      It’s beautiful, and as a story it works.

      Jon’s themes have also obviously centered on identity and birthright, and his extraordinary birthright as true heir to the Iron Throne was revealed to us in the show with the gravitas appropriate from the perspective of the “old world” of the unbroken wheel. We as viewers were invited to share in that perspective – to rejoice – until, at the end, the wheel is broken by a decision to reject the concept of rule by birthright. Narratively, it makes sense that an actual heir exists and the Westerosi leaders still choose to banish him, rather than adopting the new system because there’s no one in line. This actually sets Jon free, and the story’s themes of power corrupting those who want it most and burdening those who don’t are expressed in Jon’s reprieve, Tyrion’s “sentence”, and the choice to give ultimate power to the one man in Westeros who “doesn’t want anymore”.

      Why would Sir Arthur Dayne follow his orders? Duty. To the death. His king gave him a command and he was the epitome of the honorable knight.

      From my perspective, the fact that some non-book-reader viewers – as well as book readers – haven’t immediately appreciated some of the show’s storytelling values is a consequence of its artistic merit.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Che: Che
      May 28, 2019 at 1:02 pm

      I watched the documentary last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. After reading comments that it didn’t cover the stars of the show, I think it helped me enjoy it more as I knew what to expect. I think it’s wonderful a few of the crew and an extra got a chance to shine. Everyone poured their hearts and souls into this show, yet only the show runners and cast seem to get public recognition for it. It was so nice to see other people in this wonderful ensemble. I especially liked the prosthetics/make-up couple. She was so not what I would expect from someone working on GOT. I found the scenes surrounding their daughter particularly touching and loved their proud faces when she was an extra in the final shot of thrones.

      Yeah, I thought I might see more commentary on ‘The Last Watch’ here, or more than I have seen so far.
      I liked all the behind the scenes stuff about makeup , hair, extras, food truck, security guards, more coverage of Bernadette Caulfield than we have ever seen before, lots more of Deborah Riley hard at work (too bad no call back to Gemma Jackson who engineered the whole world building for GoT during her first 3 years), various crew people , some of the stunt people , Camilla Naprous the horse master in Ireland for all 8 seasons showed up briefly , liked the lady crew master at Magheramorne she was a hoot! …. they did have Nutter and Sapochnik but would like to have seen more of them … lacking, no Michele Clapton or Ramin Djawadi , a little but not a lot of the VFX people maybe more on that to come, I have never seen the magical Nina Gold covered at any time on the show, … some cast, a lot of Vladimir Furdik which was nice, …. ‘candids’ Kit and Emilia, but only a little of everybody else, and I don’t mean that had to be commentary…. I would of like to have seen commentary from Bryan Cogman and David Hill , who were inner inner circle on the show,…. , sometime in the future I would like see what they have to say, both of them like Dave and Dan were ‘extras’ this season… they should have made an effort, maybe they did, to get George R R Martin on set last season… I wonder how much footage Jeanie Finlay has? All the table read?

        Quote  Reply

    94. Northern Breeze,

      An excellent and extremely well written response, to which I will say only two things:

      1. I agree with all your assessments of the characters’ motivations and ultimate fates, as well as the central point of Jon’s journey.
      2. I disagree with your assessment of the show’s “artistic merit”—at least in terms of the screenwriting—in its closing chapters. It’s one thing to leave viewers with the feeling of wanting more because the meal was satisfying. It’s something else to leave them wanting more because it wasn’t. Alas, for many of us the latter prevailed. A story this grand in scope should not have left as many loose ends as it did. Really, what’s the point, after all these years, of making us GUESS what Varys heard in the flames? That’s not “art.” That’s punking your audience. I can cite many more examples, but they’ve been exhaustively covered since the storytelling became truncated in S7. We can agree to disagree.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Dee Stark:

      Northern Breeze,

      […] I loved season 8!! Its definitely not the best in my opinion but its definitely high up there

      I did too. While it’s always been hard for me to “rank” seasons and episodes – as I enjoy them all on their own merits – Season 8 has had me the most gripped, tearful, gut-wrenched and elated in all the right places, with an added appreciation for the execution of the themes of the story. The Bells was a masterpiece, aside from the Euron-Jaimie scene which felt contrived (though narratively I understand why it was included). Right now I’d probably put S8 on top of them all. However, luckily, we don’t have to think in terms of seasons anymore: GoT is finally a completed long-form film.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Enharmony1625,

      At the end of her time at the HoB&W, I saw a trace of a proud smile on Ja’Quen’s face . As soon as Arya announces her name and that she was going home, he smiled and allowed her to leave.
      Northern Breeze,

      Nicely put. 👏🏻

      Re: Euron and Jamie. I read that Pilou worked as a manny to Nik’s Two girls years ago when he was younger, out of work actor so it was a tribute to the two Danes. Euron was an ass and I was delighted that Jamie killed him.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Northern Breeze,

      I like what you have written. I loved the season and the last episode. I’m someone who would have liked more (oh the extra lines of dialog I’d like to put here and there…) but did not need it to make it work.

      In your post I especially like your comments re Jon:

      Jon’s themes have also obviously centered on identity and birthright, and his extraordinary birthright as true heir to the Iron Throne was revealed to us in the show with the gravitas appropriate from the perspective of the “old world” of the unbroken wheel. We as viewers were invited to share in that perspective – to rejoice – until, at the end, the wheel is broken by a decision to reject the concept of rule by birthright. Narratively, it makes sense that an actual heir exists and the Westerosi leaders still choose to banish him, rather than adopting the new system because there’s no one in line. This actually sets Jon free, and the story’s themes of power corrupting those who want it most and burdening those who don’t are expressed in Jon’s reprieve, Tyrion’s “sentence”, and the choice to give ultimate power to the one man in Westeros who “doesn’t want anymore”.

      I had not thought about how Jon remaining in the South would undermine or diminish the move to breaking the wheel of birthright rulers. Jon’s going to the North had many benefits: immediate peace between the Unsullied and the Starks/ the Northmen, helping to establish a new political order, and his own freedom. It is there, but I would have loved a few lines of meaty dialog between Jon and Tyrion about all of this.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Jon Snowed,

      I just rewatched it. I watch it in 2 sittings. first till death of Dany, second after that. And I have to say, both segments are brilliant on their own, but both too short for a single episode (they unfortunate didn’t have the luxury this season that season 1 till 6 had, adding another storyline if a episode was too short).

      I think the problem is more the glue that combined part 1 and 2. Separately they are perfect. I only missed this time a scene where Dragoon drop Dany of in Mereen at Daario’s feet and seeing him burying her. For me the only thing missing.
      I think the final will age better with time, like a song that we didn’t like when came out but after 10 years we are looking back at that song how amazing the music was in that time.

      Last week the final I rated: 8/8.5. This time 9/9.5. I wonder what my rewatch of season 8 will bring next month.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Enharmony1625,

      I think people are making too much fuss about her FM powers. For them it’s only the facemask that was the FM powers. And for me they are wrong. Her journey with the FM was not about her gaining the ability to change faces, are we watching some Marvel or HP movie? No. It was about her fighting abilities. That ability came into play when off-ing the NK. When she run through the streets of KL in episode 5. And it come in handy with her journey she will go to now. Going west (Which she utter in season 6 already)

      Same from Bran, they talked only about going into the past as his powers. But that’s just the surface. The whole journey of Bran lead to 2 things: 1, it lead the NK to him and we could off the NK. He warged into birds. And 2. It gave him the ability to for-fill the role of King as the best candidate. He can check the past when he needs to make a decision. Which one lead to war, which one don’t. Which to hunger which don’t. He also can warg into things so very handy when somebody rises up to Westeros.

      As for Jon: Duty destroyed his soul. His ending is an ending without duty. And with the rewatch he smiled, not fully but more happy then the past seasons. And he was happy when he saw ghost.

      And also Sansa what she went through made it that she became queen of the north, not for herself but for her people.

      Same with Tyrion, Bronn, Sam etc, they all doing what their journey was about.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Dee Stark,

      I don’t know where it lands. I know I liked it more then season 2 and 5. But less then season 1 4 and probably less then season 3. I think I will know when I watched it again next month. I think watching the episodes back to back will feel more if the pacing is right.

        Quote  Reply

    101. One thing that has been pissing me off the past few weeks is every time I go on youtube I get recommend videos about GoT and 90% are just about how awful it is. I have always got GoT video recommended because I watch GoT videos but over the past few weeks they are all nothing but hating the show. You can clearly see how it became trendy to hate the show and all these youtubers have joined in because these GoT bashing videos that show up in peoples recommendations get tons of clicks.

      What annoys me most is how out of touch with reality this narrative is that GoT S8 was some abomination. GoT at its worst is still better than 99% of Hollywood entertainment but sadly GoT isn’t judged like other shows. Its hypercritical book fans were able to rise to prominence after “The Long Night” and able to shift the narrative about the show.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Kevin1989,

      Totally Agree! All of that and her constant “bend the knee” repetitions. A true leader doesn’t have to have total submission from their subjects. She was only magnanimous when her supporters pushed hard or it didn’t have any significant impact to her plans. Otherwise she was totally power and adulation hungry. Don’t know why so many failed to see this

        Quote  Reply

    103. JamesL: Its hypercritical book fans were able to rise to prominence after “The Long Night” and able to shift the narrative about the show.

      I don’t think it’s remotely fair to single out “hypercritical book fans” as the sole source of criticism—some of which is, indeed, unwarranted—for the last two seasons. I’m a book reader, but I’ve met plenty of non-book readers (and read plenty of non-book readers’ comments here) with the same criticisms of the storytelling. There are lots of us who have managed to keep books and show separate in our minds, else we wouldn’t be here on WotW in the first place. Yes, “hypercritical book readers” are a thing. So are Daenerys fans who “never saw it coming” because they never really thought about many of her actions going all the way back to S1. So are people who don’t like lapses in logic, loose ends, and Euron ex machina (the category I fall into). Yes, it’s totally f****d that there are people flooding imdB with “1” scores for S8 GoT episodes; as many people have noted, the worst GoT episodes are still better than most TV is capable of. For those of us who are reasonable, critically-thinking people, though, having set the bar so high in every way, it was disappointing to see the show’s rushed dénouement full of unanswered questions.

      Lumping everyone with critiques to make into a single mass of screaming banshees isn’t conducive to intelligent discussion.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Enharmony1625,

      Here’s a short excerpt (less than two minutes long) of the cast script read-through.

      •Jorah dying defending Dany
      • Night King about to kill Bran when Arya hurtles out of the darkness and plunges her dagger through his armor. (Cast cheers – esp. Rory McCann.)*
      • Jon kills Dany.

      *The Arya vs. NK portion was as good as a Burlington Bar fan reaction video.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hRN1cZPvKc

      #ASNAWPTWP 👸🏻

        Quote  Reply

    105. MotherofWolves,

      He did indeed. I feel that Jaqen always had a soft spot for Arya, so he was mildly pleased to see her triumph.

      kevin1989,

      Well said. I must admit I expected her face-changing skills to come into a more climactic use this season, but in retrospect I’m glad it didn’t. I very much like the thought that there is a deeper meaning/symbolism behind the journeys of these characters beyond just gaining powers, especially for Arya & Bran.

      Ten Bears,

      Rory is like a proud papa! I love his reaction to pieces!

        Quote  Reply

    106. Wolfish: I don’t think it’s remotely fair to single out “hypercritical book fans” as the sole source of criticism—some of which is, indeed, unwarranted—for the last two seasons. I’m a book reader, but I’ve met plenty of non-book readers (and read plenty of non-book readers’ comments here) with the same criticisms of the storytelling. There are lots of us who have managed to keep books and show separate in our minds, else we wouldn’t be here on WotW in the first place. Yes, “hypercritical book readers” are a thing. So are Daenerys fans who “never saw it coming” because they never really thought about many of her actions going all the way back to S1. So are people who don’t like lapses in logic, loose ends, and Euron ex machina (the category I fall into). Yes, it’s totally f****d that there are people flooding imdB with “1” scores for S8 GoT episodes; as many people have noted, the worst GoT episodes are still better than most TV is capable of. For those of us who are reasonable, critically-thinking people, though, having set the bar so high in every way, it was disappointing to see the show’s rushed dénouement full of unanswered questions.

      Lumping everyone with critiques to make into a single mass of screaming banshees isn’t conducive to intelligent discussion.

      So, I’m a show only watcher (until I get my ASOIAF set for father’s day, which I’m highly looking forward to getting). I don’t see it that a “narrative” was turned by anyone or any group. I try my best to stay as positive as possible. The show has been a major part of my life, and I know how hard everyone worked on it. I still have lots of criticisms (and I had some in other seasons as well). It’s not because anyone started a “narrative”. I have had a countless number of re-watches over the years. I am a huge Arya fan, and even for me I had some issues with the NK story ending so abruptly after all of the buildup and that Jon wasn’t able to have his moment. I had issues that Jon wasn’t involved more in the action and ended up just yelling at the dragon. This was really his story arc from watching the show up til that point. If that’s the narrative you’re talking about, I think it’s just something that many people observed from watching the show so long. I won’t write a novel here about my criticisms. There were plenty of things I liked, and I try my best to point out those things as much as possible, because I still love this show. It made things better for me to think that Arya jumped like a “wolf” instead of wondering why she was leaping the way she did. To me, the show-runners decided they needed to end the NK story so they could get to the rest. They were consistent with eliminating as much of the magical elements as possible during the later seasons. So, as a currently non book reader, a “narrative” didn’t change my opinion. What I can say about book readers is that they motivated me to start reading the books!!

        Quote  Reply

    107. Kevin1989: Not? I always felt something was wrong with her from her death of her brother. And I didn’t cheer als many with season 3 and 4. I always found her actions to be horrific and not a good foreshadow of what she will bring to westeros. I always felt she was deluted in her own sense of what was right. And everyone else is wrong. Yes she listen to her advisors as long as they had the same end goal of what was good.
      I never bough in her being the hero. Yes I think she as a hero in episode 3. But still she called it Jon’s war. Not her war for the safety of her people of westeros.

      I have no disagreement about the foreshadows , tho I find them more mixed , for instance her instructions on S3E4 to the Unsullied not to harm women and children in Astapor… in the end it’s not the story but the execution of the narrative squeezed into 6 episodes that does not convince me or at least that I did not find satisfying.

        Quote  Reply

    108. JamesL:
      One thing that has been pissing me off the past few weeks is every time I go on youtube I get recommend videos about GoT and 90% are just about how awful it is. I have always got GoT video recommended because I watch GoT videos but over the past few weeks they are all nothing but hating the show. You can clearly see how it became trendy to hate the show and all these youtubers have joined in because these GoT bashing videos that show up in peoples recommendations get tons of clicks.

      What annoys me most is how out of touch with reality this narrative is that GoT S8 was some abomination. GoT at its worst is still better than 99% of Hollywood entertainment but sadly GoT isn’t judged like other shows. Its hypercritical book fans were able to rise to prominence after “The Long Night” and able to shift the narrative about the show.

      I hear you lol, I had an internet argument with someone yesterday about the hate, and he called the season “trash” and the series as a whole, I asked him to provide me with what he would consider better television, his answer was “the simpsons, South Park, breaking bad and the office” I’m not shitting on those shows, but to say they are even on a par let alone better than GoT to me is like saying shit tastes better than chocolate lol

        Quote  Reply

    109. Boojam,

      Oh yeah, I remember when it came out. Not sure why I never saw it; should check out reviews of it, I seem to remember reading something that disturbed me. Didn’t click that Clarice was in it

        Quote  Reply

    110. Raemontarg89:
      the biggest problem about the final episode is. it failed to pull my heartstrings.

      i didnt cry, didnt jump for joy, didnt rage in anger. i just feel, who are these people? why everyone doesnt acting like themselves?

      too quick.

      This.

      Except Brienne/white book I felt nothing.

      I want my heart destroyed. Didn’t happen. Heart was broken for Dany already in ep 5.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Wolfish:
      Brandon,

      I’ll always have the deepest love and respect for this incrediblecast and crew, and the incredible world they brought to life. I’ll watch the documentary in the next week or so (I’m preparing for surgery Thursday and will be on medical leave). And I know I’ll watch the show again, although I might stop at “The Winds of Winter.” Game of Thrones, and the fandom here, helped pull me through a very difficult part of my life.

      It’s terribly ironic that I find myself really down not as much because it’s ended—although there’s certainly an element of that—but how. And it’s terribly ironic that D&D, who lionized the power of stories through Tyrion’s plea for Bran, essentially walked away from the one they themselves fought to bring to the screen.

      First don’t you just love friends like that with whom you can have those conversations ; I have one, unfortunately she lives far away but we still manage it. Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during your talk!

      Second: I am so sorry you are having surgery and are having to be on leave. I hope all goes well and you heal quickly ..keep us posted.

      Finally, your reaction is shared by many I also loved GOT for the story it told. Loved the first three eps, and then it just started to change. we didn’t get a story this time. We got a psuedo LOTR scene and ending. I think the final surprise could have been done much differently. I still love the show and will watch it again and again and enjoy the discussions; But like you, I am disappointed – not in the acting You sound like you are feeing sorry for your reaction, guilty even . Don’t be. Its an honest reaction. that is all. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    112. Tron79: ll that buildup and all those revelations for… what, exactly? As with so many other things, there was no follow-through at the end. Why, in the name of the old gods and the new, would the heir to the f*****g Iron Throne, a reputedly kind, sensitive man who sometimes traveled among his subjects disguised as an itinerant musician, abandon his noble-born wife and children to elope with the headstrong daughter of the Warden of the North (who was already betrothed to another)? He had his marriage annulled, risked war with both Dorne and the Stormlands (and got the latter), left his wife, beloved by all, and their children at risk of exile at best and assassination at worst, because…? Why did Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, a Dornishman (!), defend this insanity to the death? There is nothing, nothing anywhere in the show that explains any of this. It was all built up over a decade’s time and just left unanswered, along with dozens of other things. WTF?

        Quote  Reply

      Thats been bothering me the most. Lots of guns and crossbows were hung, and its like they all turned into squirt guns wha?

        Quote  Reply

    113. BQ,

      “The point is: Is Jon supposed to be removed from the world (7 Kingdoms), based on the narrative logic of GOT/ISOIAF?
      The books could make the lead-up to his ending more credible, I hope. Because the show absolutely failed at offering a plausible and satisfying conclusion for a wonderfully crafted, enigmatic character.”

      ________
      Based solely on “show canon”, I’ve come up with an ex post facto tinfoil explanation for the plausibility of Jon’s character’s conclusion. It’s too long to post right now though (site algorithms or my WiFi are diverting long comments into “That Page Not Found” Purgatory, or that just disappear into the ether).

      Also, I’m wary of “connecting the dots” on my own since: (1) I shouldn’t have to; (2) I’m likely to come up with something that was never intended by the showrunners; (3) with 73 episodes, anyone could cherry-pick tidbits and string them together to support a theory; and (4) according to Chekhov or Stephen King expounding on Chekhov, all of the backstory and time devoted to the mystery of Jon’s parentage should’ve been eliminated from the show if it didn’t really factor into the conclusion.

        Quote  Reply

    114. ash,

      Regarding the Hitler references, that’s a tough one for me. I am visiting Poland and three of the concentration camps in Europe this summer with our synagogue. We end up in Berlin for the last three days. I honestly don’t want to think of Dany that way. You’re right that I think that’s what D&D were going for. It had that awful look. I can see how they tried to make the Targ flag look the same, but I wish they wouldn’t have gone there with Dany. And the scene looked fake to me. I couldn’t believe there were that many unsullied and Dothraki left. Dany was not one of my favorite POV characters, but I didn’t want to see it end that way for her (going from someone we loved to someone who was like.. I honestly can’t even say his name again)

      I had the chance to do that, and decided against it for many reasons I knew the stories and just didn’t see what it would teach me. Instead I have read books and accounts and memoirs to keep those stories alive. I hope your visit is meaningful for you.

      That scene did not seem fake to me at all. Go back to the conversations we had earlier about Leni and The Triump and the Will. That was about as real as it gets And yes, Dany is like Hitler. You should say his name. People need to hear it and realize he was a real person , what he did was real, and good people (and countries that should have known better) stood by and did nothing, and wht that means as we see this movement coming back. Will history repeat itself or will people rise up and refuse to let it happen.

      I am not bothered by the scene itself as part of her story, I am bothered by how off it was compared to the rest of the show. Like I said before they wanted to show off LOTR and did so, to the detriment of GOT

      I wish Dany did not become that, but the signs were there for a long time – the focus on the iron throne so much that she was ready for fire and blood; It did not surprise me; the reactions from others who didnt see it did. I have a dear friend who believes that people do not change, they just show their true colors. I find that happens too oftn, and think it happened hre

      Im interested to hear how this trip goes for you. Perhaps we can discuss it when you return

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    115. Isabelle_M,

      “Why do you think this? I’m not sure I see the connection between Jon’s resurrection and the NK.”
      ——-
      Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I did not mean to suggest there was any connection between Jon’s resurrection and the NK. If anything, just the opposite: The Lord of Light didn’t bring him back to square off against “that horned f*cker.” It was for another purpose….

      PS I should also admit I’m trying to come up with a credible explanation for Jon’s (in-)actions during “The Long Night”, which consisted primarily of getting lost in a blizzard and yelling at undead Viserion.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Wolfish,

      OMG that was so incredible!!!! I agree with you btw that she perhaps would have been bettre played as a Gengis Khan leader; not that he was all that bettr, it is a differnt time and direction. What did happen was just too over the top

        Quote  Reply

    117. Direcat,

      Damn. They should’ve ditched the High Sparrow and Euron the Cackling Clown, and kept Barristan Selmy alive on the show. Ian McElhinney (sp?) was excellent.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Wolfish,

      Thank you.

      Yes, we can agree to disagree. I’m probably not familiar with the examples you mention but I expect I would not agree with many of them as being problems with the writing. There are different ways to see and interpret the same thing, which of course is what good storytelling, whether in drama or literature, relies upon.

      Case in point, with Varys I never expected we’d necessarily come to know what he heard in the flames. In the first conversation with Tyrion in S2 that detail seemed to me to be serving to demonstrate Varys’s belief in and mistrust of (dark) magic; with the two High Red Priestesses in S6 and S7, their apparent knowledge of his past (the voice in the flames, shall I tell you what it said) and future (you have to die here, just like me) served to demonstrate the same thing, and he was accordingly unsettled. The latter interactions could also serve to hint that, unwittingly, Varys too was part of the Red God’s designs. No need for more, for me. While of course it’s also valid for another viewer to expect more about that to be explained, and to be disappointed when that doesn’t happen, with respect I don’t think it’s fair to say that because it wasn’t explained the writers were therefore “punking” their audience. They’ve tried to tell the story as best they can and what we have is a result of their style.

      Anyway, no need to go on point by point. I’m sorry it hasn’t worked well for you in the last stretch, and for so many fans.

      I wish you all good health and every blessing for your upcoming surgery, and a speedy recovery.

        Quote  Reply

    119. ash,

      Thank you so much; that is so sweet!!!

      I’m sure everything will be fine health-wise. As for the show… despite my great disappointments in S7 and S8, I’ll always love it and return to it. And to this fandom—this wonderful, weird, passionate, intelligent tribe! I’ll be at Con this year and, I hope, more years to come. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    120. ash,

      Speaking of guns and crossbows (the Chekhov variety) – No sign of Wimsey recently? Would be interesting to read what his take was on the final episode. Were all the hung guns fired he was always on about or did they end up as damp squibs 🙂

      I was certainly surprised when Bran was elected to be the King. Don’t recall a gun being hung for him or when being asked if he would take on that responsibilty and saying “Why did you think I came here for?” Looks like more of the case of ‘deus ex machina’ for his character? He even says several times he’s not Bran Stark any more and now the 3ER.

      As for all the discontented fans who signed a partition for HBO to rewrite S8, that’s never going to happen! The problem rests squarely on GRRM for not finishing the novels. D&D did a great job given the time available and with no more source material to work with after S5. However, probably even if GRRM does finish the books, some readers will still be unhappy with the finale in those either?

      You just can’t please some people 😉

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    121. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      I am really going to miss Maisie Williams as Arya. It was such a joy to watch the character and the actress evolve.

      https://goo.gl/images/Yqh6Q9

      What a great photo! I loved seeing the season 1 table read shot of Maisie in the documentary.

      She could do so many things now. Her fashion shoots are incredible. I saw a recent one that was on YouTube for one of her Daisie partners. I’m not so sure about the future of her Daisie app, but I’m bad at predicting such things. I hope after she takes some time off she will get the bug to get back into acting for good. I watched her again in iBoy last week.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Black Raven,

      Ive wondered about Wimsey myself; hopefully he is hail and hardy, and just very busy (or wanting to stay far out of the fray) Would be nice to hears his thoughts

      I would also blame GRMM for not finishing the books, except D&D were tasked with adapting his story, and they were told what it was. They were able to carry on over a couple of years without that much book material. I don’t see why this had to change now (I didn’t realkize about their work for Star wars; perhaps that took away time and energy from GOT)

        Quote  Reply

    123. who was saying Dany would be the final antagonist for two years now on this website??? HUH???? 🙂

      Final twist for me it was not.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Though I did not like S8 or the ending AT ALL, I will say one of my favorite elements was Jaime’s arc, I really think they did get that right and I think that’s how it’s going to go in the books as well.

      The fact that, in the end, he just couldn’t let Cersei go, and with that he could never become the man he wanted to be. Him and Cersei dying in each other’s arms was just perfect, it was one of the few elements in the final seasons that had that poetry of the earlier seasons. It was Game of Thrones.

      And then my favorite part of the final episode was Brienne filling out the Book of Brothers with the deeds of Jaime. The only thing in the final episode that made me feel something. She struggles with it, then “died defending his Queen”. Fighting back the tears, she closes the book. :`( Brilliant.

        Quote  Reply

    125. I’ve been obsessed with this show for 7 years. I never once tried guessing what Varys heard in the flames. That was a throw away line that gave some intrigue to his back story. It was never implied that it was anything more. I think statements like this are good examples of why much of the criticism of this last season are mostly irrelevant.

      Wolfish:
      Northern Breeze,

      An excellent and extremely well written response, to which I will say only two things:

      1. I agree with all your assessments of the characters’ motivations and ultimate fates, as well as the central point of Jon’s journey.
      2. I disagree with your assessment of the show’s “artistic merit”—at least in terms of the screenwriting—in its closing chapters. It’s one thing to leave viewers with the feeling of wanting more because the meal was satisfying. It’s something else to leave them wanting more because it wasn’t. Alas, for many of us the latter prevailed. A story this grand in scope should not have left as many loose ends as it did. Really, what’s the point, after all these years, of making us GUESS what Varys heard in the flames? That’s not “art.” That’s punking your audience. I can cite many more examples, but they’ve been exhaustively covered since the storytelling became truncated in S7. We can agree to disagree.

        Quote  Reply

    126. I have to admit I was quite perturbed the other day. I made a tremendous come back post, it was probably my most measured and mature post detailing how I sacrificed my own joy by abstaining from posting here during S8 so as not to ruin the party for everyone here. The post was getting rave reviews, but unfortunately I posted it in the wrong thread by accident. Some miscreants ratted on me to Sue under the guise of it being an off topic post when truly they were annoyed that I expressed some dissenting opinions about S8. The post got removed. Hrmph.

      So I’m firing back. I am constantly accused of being a show hater and quite frankly this hurts me as the show, especially the earlier seasons, has a special place in my heart. But to those defending Dany’s arc in S8, I will accuse you of not truly loving the show. For anyone to accept Dany’s arc, which turned her into genocidal maniac in the matter of moments and didn’t give her any kind of remembrance or eulogy after she was killed, I accuse you of being a GoT hater!

      Yes, Dany had a dark side and a habit of ruthless punishment for those that did bad things or who wronged her. But she also had a very compassionate side, she protected the Lhazareen women from being slaughtered by the Dothraki and freed all of the slaves in Slaver’s Bay. She definitely did more good than bad. Still, she was a grey character, and maybe could’ve done some bad things if backed into a corner, but she was NO WHERE NEAR THE POINT TO DO WHAT SHE DID AT THE EXTENT OF WHAT SHE DID. Then D & D snuffed her out early in the episode for shock value and nary a mention of her for the rest of the episode! This tragic, tortured, complicated woman that we followed for 8 seasons and we got absolutely nothing! How can you accept this? And this is why I brandish YOU as someone who truly doesn’t love the show if you can accept that terrible characterization of Dany 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    127. I would rate S8 above seasons five, seven and two and probably on a par with S1, seasons 6 and 4 remain my all time favourites.

      Also on a side note how has the final episode got a one star rating on this site? Have we been infiltrated by trolls like IMDB because it’s no where near the worst episode and has largely been given praise in the comments on here and in the media…

        Quote  Reply

    128. Wolfish,

      I am aware that non book readers have joined in with the hate. I would love to believe that peoples opinions on the show are formed independently of what they see from other peoples opinion but I know it is not true. There is a strong social media element to the GoT fandom and when the hypercritical fans opinions rose to prominence after episode 3 this changed the narrative around the show. D&D bashing and show hating were everywhere and nerd raging about the show was the dominate element in the social media fandom. More and more were watching with the mentality that the show is ruined and D&D are awful and this shaped their opinions on it.

      If there were no books and this story was created by D&D S8 may have been considered disappointing but it would not have gotten the extreme hate it has. Similarly, without the social media discourse about the show many of its haters would not have formed such hostile opinions about it on their own.

        Quote  Reply

    129. ash:
      ash,

      I had the chance to do that, and decided against it for many reasonsI knew the stories and just didn’tsee what it would teachme.Instead I have read books and accounts and memoirs to keep those stories alive.I hope your visit is meaningful for you.

      That scene did not seem fake to me at all.Go back to the conversations we had earlier about Leni and The Triump and the Will.That was about as real as it getsAnd yes, Dany is like Hitler. You should say his name. People need to hear it and realize he was a real person , what he did was real,and good people (and countries that should have known better) stood by and did nothing, and wht that means as we see this movement coming back. Will history repeat itself or will people rise up and refuse to let it happen.

      I am not bothered by the scene itself as part of her story, I am bothered by how off it was compared to the rest of the show. Like I said before they wanted to show off LOTR and did so, to the detriment of GOT

      I wish Dany did not become that, but the signs were there for a long time – the focus on the iron throne so much that she was ready for fire and blood;It did not surprise me; the reactions from others who didnt see it did.I have a dear friend who believes that people do not change, they just show their true colors.I find that happens too oftn, and think it happened hre

      Im interested to hear how this trip goes for you.Perhaps we can discuss it when you return

      Dany is not like Hitler. These simplistic comparisons and forced allegories really need to stop. Dany did not attempt genocide. She was not nearly as far gone (even on the botched portrayal of her in Ep 5 and 6) as Hitler was by the end of the war, when the concentration camps were death camps.

      A comparison with any 20th century tyrant is misconceived. The ideologies and moralities of the 20th century are so different from the theatre in which Dany operated.

      Much better would be to compare her with conquerors from the ancient and medieval world, like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar (who burned many cities to the ground in their time), or even someone on the cusp of the modern era like Napoleon. But to compare her to Stalin, Hitler or any 20th century autocrat is reductive both (i) to the story and context of GOT and (ii) to the complex socio-economic structure and real world historical events that allowed the likes of Hitler and Stalin to “happen” as they did.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Agree with you as I’ve also enjoyed S8 even more on rewatch. My only wish was that there was one more episode as it would have felt less rushed. Perhaps have the build up to the bells extended and include the Varys burning in an earlier episode so the bells ends with Dany’s death then everything after as the finale.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Jon Snowed:
      I would rate S8 above seasons five, seven and two and probably on a par with S1, seasons 6 and 4 remain my all time favourites.

      Also on a side note how has the final episode got a one star rating on this site? Have we been infiltrated by trolls like IMDB because it’s no where near the worst episode and has largely been given praise in the comments on here and in the media…

      Because many of it hated it. We just do not post that much anymore. We are trying to forget our whole unfortunate venture into GOT.

      I am fairly busy with an extensive menu of artistic pleasures to choose from – so I am trying to decipher how I managed to spend so much time on anything so bad. Outside GOT I have managed to enjoy a fairly high volume but high-quality life as far as artistic matters go. I am examining this experience a failure on my part and trying to ensure I do not repeat it.

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    132. Sorry to read you feel that way Mango, hard to for me to fathom given I’ve never experienced that with the show but had it ended differently perhaps I would feel the same.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Ten Bears: I didn’t want to mention it in case I was seeing something that wasn’t intended, but that Darth Dany scene af the top of the steps addressing her troops definitely brought to mind newsreel footage I’ve seen of Hitler in front of throngs of enthralled Nazis.
      Replace the large Targ banner with a swastika and the similarities are eerie.

      I thought that scene was absolutely amazing.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Ten Bears:
      Direcat,

      Damn. They should’ve ditched the High Sparrow and Euron the Cackling Clown, and kept Barristan Selmy alive on the show. Ian McElhinney (sp?) was excellent.

      I loved Selmy. I thought his words that I specified were very foreshadowing re every victory increasing the feeling of power until judgement is lost. I think it described her eventual descent perfectly. As an fan of Danys, I went along with her while she conquered the “bad guys”. Although, I have always been unsettled with locking the two in the big vault to die.

      I think if Selmy had lived to continue to advise her it may have ended differently. Would loved to have seen his reaction learning that Rhaegar has a son….

        Quote  Reply

    135. I think the comparisons to Hitler or Stalin are stemming from the knowledge that EC studied old footage of these very dictators to observe their way of speaking.
      We can only imagine the impassioned speeches given by Genghis Khan or Alexander. At least many of Caesar’s actually do exist on paper.

        Quote  Reply

    136. JamesL,

      Hate speaks louder than love. I know I have said it many times, but the 2% of the fandom that hated the ending and didn’t get what they want, spread the hate and negativity which is far more contagious than our positivity and love for the show, unfortunately. And this is evident in the ridiculous imdb ratings, rotten tomatoes, and all over twitter and youtube.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Jon Snowed:
      Sorry to read you feel that way Mango, hard to for me to fathom given I’ve never experienced that with the show but had it ended differently perhaps I would feel the same.

      Yeah.

        Quote  Reply

    138. ash:
      Wolfish,

      OMG that was so incredible!!!! I agree with you btw that she perhaps would have been bettre played as a Gengis Khan leader; not that he was all that bettr, it is a differnt time and direction.What did happen was just too over the top

      I agree as well. Thank you Wolfish!
      And Ash thanks for your earlier post. I will report back about the trip. The synagogue was hoping I would join them on this trip so I would sing the “El Maleh Rachamim” memorial prayer at the camps (I sing it at funerals here in town).
      I will be starting my “book reader” life on the way with Game of Thrones book 1, since there will be plenty of time on the plane and in airports!

      On a lighter note, I hope to get to Northern Ireland one day and go on one of those GOT tours! I would love to just go to Ireland (and England). My wife isn’t into Game of Thrones, so I have to convince her somehow that’s not the only reason I want to go! I’ve only left the US a couple times.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Dee Stark:
      JamesL,

      Hate speaks louder than love. I know I have said it many times, but the 2% of the fandom that hated the ending and didn’t get what they want, spread the hate and negativity which is far more contagious than our positivity and love for the show, unfortunately. And this is evident in the ridiculous imdb ratings, rotten tomatoes, and all over twitter and youtube.

      This is well beyond persons not getting the ending that they want. In addition to the individual feedback….the critical feedback has been brutal.

      Many of the top critics have years of experience reviewing television programs as their job for major newspapers and news media. They watch a lot of TV as their job, have worked cinema/TV and are often trained in storytelling etc. I laughed when the BBC critic said the series will go down in ignominy. That was funny!

        Quote  Reply

    140. Dee Stark:
      JamesL,

      Hate speaks louder than love. I know I have said it many times, but the 2% of the fandom that hated the ending and didn’t get what they want, spread the hate and negativity which is far more contagious than our positivity and love for the show, unfortunately. And this is evident in the ridiculous imdb ratings, rotten tomatoes, and all over twitter and youtube.

      This is well beyond persons not getting the ending that they want. In addition to the individual feedback….the critical feedback has been brutal.

      Many of the top critics have years of experience reviewing television programs as their job for major newspapers and news media. They watch a lot of TV as their job, have worked cinema/TV and are often trained in storytelling etc. They can compare GOT to Lost, Wire Breaking Bad, Six Feet and others – these are informed opinions. I laughed when the BBC critic said the series will go down in ignominy. That was funny!

      But GOT is lucky this year, many competing shows did not run this season so expect GOT to win many Emmys. It is still technically the best TV show this year – great CGI etc. Of course, Emmy are not always the best measure of quality – the Wire did not win any!

        Quote  Reply

    141. Jon Snowed:
      Agree with you as I’ve also enjoyed S8 even more on rewatch. My only wish was that there was one more episode as it would have felt less rushed. Perhaps have the build up to the bells extended and include the Varys burning in an earlier episode so the bells ends with Dany’s death then everything after as the finale.

      I have enjoyed them more upon rewatch also.
      One more episode would have been welcomed by everyone it seems, although people would still complain as not everyone’s needs or desires would have been included in another episode. Guess they just needed to never end the show…😂

        Quote  Reply

    142. Jon Snowed:
      Sorry to read you feel that way Mango, hard to for me to fathom given I’ve never experienced that with the show but had it ended differently perhaps I would feel the same.

      A comment on ending comment to clarify my “Yeah”.

      I see a lot of theatre, cinema, and some opera. I do not see a lot of TV.

      As a heavy consumer of the arts, I see a wide range of endings – tragedy, comedies, in-between. I do not judge by virtue of the “ending” only in terms of plot. I appreciate an ending that fits – internal consistency, be character driven, arrived at sensibly – to get an emotionally satisfying conclusion. That is all I ask.

        Quote  Reply

    143. There are a lot of valid criticisms about the last season and I agree with some of them, even when I still love the final season.
      There are also people who are hating on every aspect of the show right now, which is crazy to me.
      I’ve seen so many comments on for instance the table read and Conleth Hill’s reaction to his death scene. People seem to not realize that everyone read the scripts beforehand (except for Kit) and they know about their fates.
      People are now saying that Conleth’s reaction of putting his script down is him being defiant and disappointed in his ending even though you can clearly see him being emotional and being comforted by Lena Headey.
      He was just sad that his part was done and now people try to interpret his reaction so they can hate on the show even more.

        Quote  Reply

    144. JamesO,

      I agree with this. Everyone is on twitter, Facebook, instagram, YT and so on.

      The whole narrative around the show after E3 felt like those rant and rave threads from westeros.org became mainstream. Like nonsense that Dragon Demands talked about D&D for years became mainstream.

      Everything show did was rejected. Every accomplished D&D had was taken away from them. Every great episode, every great show-original thing they did is now there thanks to GRRM and actors abd directors.

      I will say what I said many times – Benioff and Weiss were always the most underrated part of this show. Since S1.

        Quote  Reply

    145. mau,

      Whatever happened to that Dragon Demands guy? Did he ever write and film his own scripts? How did his “replace D&D” petition turn out?

      Asking for a friend.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Direcat:
      …One more episode would have been welcomed by everyone it seems, although people would still complain as not everyone’s needs or desires would have been included in another episode. Guess they just needed to never end the show…😂

      There you go!
      I could’ve watched ten-episode seasons of “Arya & Sandor* Sail the World”, in perpetuity.

      * In my headcanon, he’s already been resurrected by the Lord of Light. A little worse off for wear and tear from Cleganebowl, but alive and as surly as ever.

      (Volantis street Red Priestess played by Rila Fukushima uncovers Sandor’s body in KL rubble, makes appeal to Lord of Light. Sandor wakes up.)

      Red Priestess: “The Lord of Light isn’t done with you yet, Sandor Clegane.”

      Sandor: “Aw, for f*ck’s sake! What now?”

        Quote  Reply

    147. SerKnight,

      Totally agree.
      The fandom is a bit poisoned at the moment and it ruins the fun for all of us in the end. I was vehemently defending S8 against criticism from friends online & offline up to the final episode… And only at the council scene did my real issues with the ending set in.
      I liked the critical views in this podcast, and how they were expressed, because the numerous positive points were also acknowledged. We all love and appreciate the show, for all it’s flaws, and for us as outsiders it’s hard to image what a crazy amount of work and effort went into realizing this mammoth project on such a staggeringly high quality level. The actors and producers and everyone else have done a tremendous job, as the documentary has shown, and no audience has the right to belittle that.

      It’s important to distinguish between rational criticism (with discussions, arguments, justified personal opinions) and undifferentiated hate/unfair dismissive criticism based on emotional reactions.
      My long critical post from earlier (see above) was also meant specifically to point out a main issue with how the show treated Jon’s character, but it’s directed only at the writing – and it bothers me so much just because I love this character and the whole show beyond words. It upsets me, because I’ve been thinking about it for years.

      The incredible outrage in the fandom might also be just a sign that so many people truly care about GOT and feel personally betrayed by the writing of S8 – which certainly doesn’t justify the venomous lowbrow negativity many are spreading. Unfortunately, it seems to work in a self-enforcing way on social media (angry shouts echoing each other), it might need some time to cool down, until people start to realize what they’ve been given with this show, which is so much more than popular entertainment has ever offered to an international audience.
      In any case, I’ll miss it dearly, and feel grateful for all the joy it has brought us in the last years.

        Quote  Reply

    148. SerKnight,

      Well, I wouldn’t exactly say he was thrilled with the scripts either….

      “Basically, Hill has felt for a while that his character has been sidelined while they focused on other characters more, specifically the last two seasons. “That’s fine,” he said. “It’s the nature of a multi-character show. It was kind of frustrating. As a whole it’s been overwhelmingly positive and brilliant but I suppose the last couple seasons weren’t my favorite.”

      About making peace with how his character went out:

      All brilliant. All noble. He was absolutely true to his word the whole way through. All he wanted was the right person on the throne and a fair person on the throne. He said it so many times in the scripts. I don’t have the distraction of love or desire or any of those things. And the people he needed to see clearly were both in love. So that makes perfect sense. And now with hindsight, I’m okay, but I really was inconsolable.

      He also mentions how he was bummed not to get a personal call from the show runners letting him know his character dies in the coming season. This interview was at EW.

        Quote  Reply

    149. BQ,

      Criticism is fine, calling for destruction of D&D’s careers is not. Personal attacks on them, refusing to acknowledge that they did anything good, portraying them as some sort of monsters where everyone else is responsable for the success of this show. Except them.

      Seeing GRRM as some sort of D&D’s victim here, to say that they betrayed him, a man who was not able to finish his own story…

      It’s lunacy.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Dee Stark,

      It’s much more than 2% that were disappointed in the ending, and it’s mostly rated low not for “not” getting the ending they want but the way it arrived there. You can love a show and still be let down by parts of it, unfortunately the let down happened right at the culmination when it most needed to be great. The ending, being the most recent in people’s memory, will be what leaves the lasting flavor.

        Quote  Reply

    151. JamesO,

      I’d like to think I’m mature enough to make up my own mind about whether I was entertained by something or not after I’ve viewed it but I do realize there definitely are aspects of social media that can influence those more easily persuaded by other’s viewpoints.

        Quote  Reply

    152. ygritte,

      I still think “how” and not “what” is just an excuse. Every fan-rewrite has completely different plot points.

      They wanted epic fight between NK and Jon, they wanted Jaime to kill Cersei, Dany to die as hero r to rule or maybe to leave Westeros with Jon. No one wanted her to be destroyed by power lust.

      And no one wanted Bran on Throne. There are no fan rewrites where they try to make that plot point work better. They don’t want that plot point at all.

        Quote  Reply

    153. MMJ,

      I was convinced of it all the way up until end of season 7 when we started seeing her more vulnerable, softer side and remembering getting lectured by some here for seeing her character was possibly being set up for it in earlier seasons, so I got in my mind that I had been wrong. I do like how they made me sympathize with her this season up until the tail part of The bells and the finale though.

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    154. Ten Bears,

      I’m down for this! I’m still super bummed out at Sandor’s death (but at least he went out like a boss!)..

      Like, what if after he gets resurrected, after some time he ends up on a quiet island in the west living peacefully. Then Arya and her exploration crew shows up on the island.

      *Sandor sees Arya approaching*
      Sandor: “Aw, for [email protected] sake!”

      Greatness ensues.

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    155. Wolfish,

      My fundamental issue with Dany=Adolf Hitler parallel was that it was that it was absolutely wroong from the ideological point of view. The idea of breaking chains and liberating the world with fire and blood has nothing to do with nazism or fashism or anything on the far right. However, it has everything to do with the left from the French Jacobins to bolsheviks and maoists and other marxists of all sorts. But instead of manking this point, D&D just chose to fight a safe and comfortable strawman-monster Adolf. So, how to put it… “I am dissapoited”:)

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    156. Mango,

      “… But GOT is lucky this year, many competing shows did not run this season so expect GOT to win many Emmys. It is still technically the best TV show this year – great CGI etc. Of course, Emmy are not always the best measure of quality – the Wire did not win any.”

      ______
      Supposedly, conventional wisdom is that the Emmys tend to reward a show and its actors after the show’s final season. I do not know if statistics bear that out.

      I am kind of bummed that Lena Headey didn’t get more screen time and story focus in S8. She certainly deserved Emmy recognition in prior seasons. Theon fans might say the same about Alfie Allen. And yet, with only six episodes and such a large cast, it was virtually impossible to showcase particular actresses and actors – though Emilia Clarke as Daenerys was certainly in the spotlight. (Poor Kit. He was reduced to a one-note, neutered “Yes, my Queen” role in S8.)

      With the admission that I cannot be objective, I think Maisie Williams was MVP of S8 and should already have her name engraved on the Best Supporting Actress Emmy statuette. “Haters” and cynics can bash “D&D” as hacks all they want. Regardless of the merits of their criticisms of S8, none of that diminishes the acting of Maisie Williams. She showed incredible range.

      For example, even though I kind of cringed at first when watching her love scene with Gendry unfold, she convincingly played a take-charge seductress. I hope talvikorppi will agree that despite the Disneyesque Arya Super Ninja Warrior Princess that Was Promised moment in S8e3 when Arya flew in from out of nowhere to pulverize NK and save the world, the rest of her scenes in that episode and the other five episodes showed Arya being human and conveying a broad range of human emotions.
      I’ve said it already: though brief, her parting scene with Sandor is a good example of seamlessly evoking emotions from one end of the spectrum to another. Thereafter, as the showrunners have apparently admitted, they deliberately tracked the devastation of KL from Arya’s perspective to take advantage of Maisie Williams/Arya’s connection to the audience. It worked.

      I’m not sure if there will be other GoT nominees in the Supporting Actress category that would cause vote-splitting. Other than Gwendolyn Christie, were any actresses even in enough scenes to make an impression one way or the other? If Lena Headey is nominated as a “legacy candidate”, would it be in that category or as leading actress? Similarly, other great GoT actors sparkled in S8 – Richard Dormer as Beric, Alfie Allen as Theon, and Rory McCann as Sandor come to mind – but I’m not sure any of them had enough screen time to make an impression on non-fanatic Emmy voters.

      As you’ve observed, the noticeably different quality of the screenplays of S8 will probably eliminate GoT from contention in the writing categories. I thought Cogman’s S8e2 script was really good; I’m just not sure the producers will even submit that episode for nomination. The showrunners will open themselves up to valid criticism if they nominate their own S8e6 script, in light of all the whinging it’s ignited.

      Finally, I have no idea how the directing noninations will shake out. As you wrote, GoT was still “technically the best show – great CGI, etc.” I heard or read somewhere the axiom
      that while a mediocre director can make a great film from a great screenplay, even the best director can’t make a great film from a mediocre screenplay. I don’t know if or how that will affect Sapochnik’s chances. While S8e3 certainly had some impressive moments, the wonkiness of the script logic, frenetic battle scenes and jump cuts, and even the nighttime setting, might have detracted from his efforts.

      Unless there’s validity to the “legacy” and “last season” reward assumptions, I’d be surprised if GoT repeats as Best Drama Emmy winner. By itself, a six-episode season crippled its chances.

      – End Unintended Emmy Forecast –

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    157. Enharmony1625,

      You kind of read my mind. That was pretty much an alternative “headcanon” I’d considered: A resurrected Sandor minding his own business, enjoying his solitude in a small skiff in the middle of the ocean… when a large ship with a direwolf prow and large Stark sigil mainsail appears in the distance, heading straight towards him:

      “Oh, for f*ck’s sake!”

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    158. Reek:
      Mango,

      If youve been a show you dont like for a long time thats your fault

      Huh. All this time Mango was a show and I didn’t even know it! I thought he was just another commenter.

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    159. I used to wonder what Varys heard in the flames but felt my question was answered as soon as Dany said Dracarys

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    160. Tron79,

      I can’t imagine how powerful an experience going to the camps will be, when you do make it.

      Good for you for venturing outside the US. My favorite quote of all time, from Mark Twain: “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.”

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    161. mau,

      IMO, the fandom has every right not to agree with Dany being destroyed by power lust, simply because she never demontrated to have any. Jon had more power lost, than she: he admitted that he wanted to lead, he admitted that he envied Robb, etc. Meanwhile, Dany’s arc has always been more about justice, than power for the sake of power. Initially, she was operating in a cartoonish world of Esos dealing with cartoonish Dothraki and even more cartoonish slavers & slaves, so it was quite ambiguous, where her charracter was going (to me all of that looked only as a filler/plot device to give her dragons and armies). Howewer, as soon as she was brought to the more realistic Westeros, she became all about justice. The episode she meets Jon is literally called “Queen’s Justice”. And how does it go? First, she accepts that Jon won’t kneel and makes a step towards cooperation, then she graddually accepts his meritocratic lead, even admits that she should have listened to him, even their intimate scene implies that she is primed to accept him as a king, and then her character is forced into a U-turn out of the blue. Like seriuosly? These writers (both D&D and GRRM) are trying to spoon-feed an idea that she gets jealous about her lover’s better claim? LOL, good luck with subverting a billion years of mammal evolution! And the premise for that is just nonsencial, because avuncultate marriage has never been a taboo in Westeros or our real world.

      As for Jon, his arc has been all about the truth: first, he found the true threat, than allies by staying adamantly true to them, and then he found the truth about his parentage. However, that last truth was turned into a source of problems. So, what is the message? That lying is better? It’s a subversion of the most fundamental law of gods and men, and once again the fandom has every right to dismiss such preaching with all the outrage it deserves.

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    162. Wolfish,

      Regarding Ser Arthur Dayne defending this madness: at this point King Aerys, Reagar and Reagars 2 older children are all dead. So if the kingsguard stay loyal to the Targaryens they are literally guarding the next King at the Tower of joy

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    163. Tron79,

      P.S.: I haven’t been to Ireland yet, but Saner Half and I spent a week in northern England and in Scotland over Thanksgiving break last year. Yes, we walked on Hadrian’s Wall (at Housesteads Roman Fort), on one of the most gloriously beautiful mornings of my life. The northern light was incredible at that time of year, central Edinburgh wasn’t totally overrun with tourists, and the cottage that was our “home base” near Pitlochry was beautiful and very reasonably priced. If you can cope with short days and making the most out of limited daylight, I highly recommend the off-season!!!

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    164. At the end of the day, critics, whether professional or the guy/gal sitting on a couch, are just that. Critics. They can’t do so they aim to blast. And most are quite ignorant about it. Constructive criticism is a lost art. In the age of social media and internet that connects us all and gives everyone and their mother platforms and anonymity, there are no longer nuanced analysis or critiques and if there are, those do not sell because they can’t be encapsulated into a certain number of words. We are living in the era of the “Me” generation. A generation that likes to scream so as to be heard, sad though that most people fail to see that so much screaming then becomes indiscernible noise.

      Were there issues with the last season or the last two seasons of game of thrones? Sure there were. Mainly the pacing of it, dictated by the fact that D&D wanted to get to every major point in the time frame they had set out for themselves years ago. After watching the documentary, I can see why. It just became too big, too time consuming, too exhausting. If the make up and prosthetic team was that exhausted, imagine just for a second how drained Dan and Dave must have felt. As showrunners they basically had to be on top of everything and I mean everything. I went to film school and I have at least a basic idea of what working on set requires – producing is just something I would never want to do. In a perfect world, D&D would have taken a year off (and I mean off, not an extra year spent working on the show) and then return with more energy to finish their 10 year project on a better note. But alas, in an industry where you need to take into account contracts and availability of your major players that is a pipe dream or a costly reality. In an even more perfect world, GRRM would have finished his series before the last season even began filming. He had several years to do so. He didn’t. And now the show is done and ink is dried.

      The last season was not as good as it could have been and given the disparate opinions and expectations I’m afraid that even a masterpiece would not have pleased. But what really gets me it is the disproportionate backlash. No, the show is not ruined because the last season was not to your liking. No, D&D are not incompetent hacks, and no matter how many petitions you signed and how disrespectfully vocal you are, your opinion is not a fact. And concretely, your loud opinion only serves to make you look bad. And please know that this is not directed to everyone who was displeased by the season. I get the why of the disappointment on many levels but my contempt is for the little dweebs on places like reddit who act like they somehow are so special that they deserved the ending they concocted in their heads long ago. I’m willing to bet that these are mostly the same people who cried loudly over Brie Larson’s Captain Marvel and can’t stomach that the current Star Wars movies have a female lead that is a Jedi. The shame!

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    165. Inga,

      Agreed!!! Hence my subsequent post in which I brought up Genghis Khan, but in the 20th-century context communism is definitely a better analogy than fascism.

      Incidentally, were you the one who, in another thread, brought up the Facebook group Comunisti per Daenerys Targaryen? I was telling Saner Half and a friend about that, and they both just about died laughing. If the group is for real, then they’re just as deluded as all those parents of toddlers named “Daenerys” and “Khaleesi.” If the group is a spoof, then they understood Daenerys’s ultimate arc at least two years before the conclusion!

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    166. Reznalp,

      Thank you for the timeline clarification (I’d already had my share of Dornish red when I wrote my original comment), although my question still stands: Why would Arthur Dayne have remained so steadfastly loyal to the Targaryen prince whose thoughtless actions were the cause of so much bloodshed—including the loss of Elia of House Martell and her two children, the oldest of whom would have inherited the Iron Throne? House Dayne were vassals of House Martell.

      Blind commitment to duty was simply not a satisfactory answer for me.

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    167. Wolfish,

      No, I don’t think it was me: I don’t think I was posting anything about GOT in facebook. Sure, the clues were all there. The problem I can’t take those “clues” seriously. She hasn’t been written as a real communist; to me she has been written as a vision of an idealized communist developed by some naive western leftist who then suddenly red something like “Gulag Archipelago” and decided to share personal disillusionment drama. I don’t want to be too harsh, but it very much establishes GRRM and D&D as idiots in my eyes, because it looks like they still stick to their illusions and respctively can still be manipulated into “Great Blindness” (and in the lingt of historical experiences, that’s a fearsome thought).

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    168. ygritte,

      I am talking about the 2% that didn’t like it and behaved like children throwing temper tantrums, spreading negativity, signing disrespectful petitions, creating fake accounts for low ratings and acting self entitled.

      I know a few people that didn’t like the DELIVERY of the ending or some who didn’t like HOW it ended, but when they speak of the show it is still in a positive light.

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    169. An interesting thought is how differently would be Daenerys Targaryen remembered in Essos and Westeros: In the east she would be remembered by millions as the breaker of chains who freed the slaves of Essos after thousands of years, while in the west she would be described as a ruthless tyrant who headed a savage foreign army and brought destruction to the traditional way of life, being only stopped by a virtuous assassin.
      In a way that parallels how differently Lincoln was regarded in the North and the South of the US.

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    170. ygritte,

      My favorite scenes from the Long Night:
      – EVERY scene with Melisandre, I really love the magical element to the show
      – Arya’s sneaking around the library
      – Arya + Hound + Mel
      – The final sequence OMG

      Shall I go on?!?! LOL

      My favorite scenes from the Bells:
      – Hound and Mountain fight paralleled with Arya’s
      – The scene where the Bells ring, and Dany snaps
      – The final scene with Arya and the Horse

      I can keep going LOL

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    171. Boojam,

      I don’t think 6 episodes is that short for such a change, we only had 2 major storylines this season. White walkers and Dany/Cersei as the villain. Look back at for instance season 2, one storyline contained max 60 minutes of the whole season. If I’m remembering right Dany was around 40 a 50 minutes. Compare that to Dany’s storyline in season 8, I think Dany got at least double the screentime.

      Even many shows have a season of just 8 episodes and they fill in a whole storyline from beginning to end. (True Detective for instance, leftovers).

      I think you can even change a character in just one episode. Many did it, it matters if the change in that episode was done right. That you can feel it.

      I don’t think this season needed more episodes, maybe one max. I think episode 4 is the only one that had some big problems in it like it squeezed to much in it. and the final is missing maybe 1 or 2 scenes, but I wonder if it really is missing it. Maybe over 10 years we think, I’m glad they didn’t put that in.

      For me episode 1,2,3 is perfect. did I wish some scenes more about the WW past or one action scene with them. Yes. But it wasn’t needed, especially with the prequel. I rather that the prequel focus on that more. Harry potter for instance omitted also some backstories in the final 2 movies and it was pushed to the prequels. And looking back it was the right decision. The final remained it’s good pacing because of it. And the prequels can do more justice to it with a more fleshed out backstory showing it in real time instead of flashback.
      Episode 5 was also perfect, nothing wrong if you look at the episode itself
      Episode 6 was perfect except maybe as stated above maybe one or 2 scenes that could have been the glue that combined part 1 and 2 in one episode. (I understand they put it in one, because dany’s demise is good shouldn’t have more screentime and 45 minutes is just to short for an episode)

      So that remains Episode 4. An episode I loved when it aired first (except maybe the dead of Rheagal). The first part was just perfect and could have been a standalone episode of 50 minutes. That remains the last 30 minutes. What happened was great how could be improved a lot. It was missing some logistics, and the set-up of Dany turning mad was not done fully as it should have been. But could they have added 20 minutes full I wonder. 10 yes, but 20 I’m wondering. But for me if they decided to have 7 episodes instead of 6, with episode 4 being 2 50 minute episode, and the second one including 20 minutes what was missing between episode 4 and 5, and of course 1 scene with Missandei and Dany, would have worked better.

      I think episode 4 is the reason why people disliked episode 5 and 6. those 2 episode were great but their set up from episode 4 was lacking because it squeezed 2 episodes in one.

      But am I going to shit on this season because one episode missed 20 minutes? No, the rest was perfect in my eyes as the ending should have been of this amazing show, and I will fill in the blanks myself.

      So I will treasure each moment of this wonderful show. And if fans can overlook the Sandsnakes storyline, they can and should overlook the mistakes made in season 8.

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    172. Direcat,

      I think the second part is also very important. Feeling more powerful and right.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Calling somebody who does like season 8 Dany’s storyline not a true fan of the show, is little bit black and white thinking.

      It was brilliant, even Emilia said so. I think people in general need to get back to reality with statements like this. Liking or not liking Dany’s end of her arc, had nothing to do with being a fan or not a fan of the show.

      Her end arc was brilliant in my opinion and what I expected since season 1 to happen. And her becoming a dark tyrant is already a theory since 20 years long before the show and when there were only books.

      And I can say that I’m a big fan, because I can’t seem to shut up about it, and friends and family are driven mad because every day I still talked about it. Every news I read about the show I share, every though and feeling I have I share.

      And you state that if you love season 8, you’re not a GoT fan. Isn’t that assessment exactly counter each other out? I mean being a fan means you love the show right?

      One thing I agree with you (half), I would have really wished to see a scene where Drogon dropped Dany off at Daario’s feet and that he will bury her into a nice crypt.

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    173. Jon Snowed,

      I think fans will accuse the Emmy’s for being to political if they got the best season of the year award, Best episode of the year. And if D&D got the Emmy for best writer and producer of the year.

      (ps I think they deserve those emmy’s)

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    174. Aurelius,

      You know Emilia looked into Hitler and his speeches etc to get into the final episode role. I think Dany is as Hitler. Like Hitler she became: Follow my worldview or die.

      As for who they both were as person/character. I will avoid that. (because there is a lot different) but her goal as a leader is the same, follow my ideology or die. She even talked about spreading her freedom to all over the world.

      https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/22/game-thrones-emilia-clarke-took-inspiration-hitler-haunting-rally-speech-9638606/

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    175. Jon Snowed,

      yes. Episode 4: part 1 of episode 4 the north part.
      Episode 5: part 2 of episode 5 + Missandei Dany scene included + a short montage of Dany 2 missing weeks could be just 2 short scenes. And ending it with Varys death and Jon dany scene: we will have fear.
      Episode 6: The rest of the bells. Maybe even include a scene with Sansa and Bran going south, Bran looking at it happening or something.
      Episode 7: What 6 was + 1 scene: Dany being buried in Mereen by Daario.

      I’m wondering if we get an extended version on the blu-ray with maybe couple of minutes extra per episode.

      Mango,

      The wire was great, all four that you named there.

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    176. mau,

      The problems are also, that people noticed problems not by first hand but by other hands. Just like the Starbucks cup. In the past it happens a lot, some noticed it, it’s fixed and 90% of the watchers never witness it. Now with social media it’s everywhere directly, and everyone has an opinion on it. Everyone is an expect on everything.

      And don’t forget that people wanted season 8 to fail. Even before the seasons there were people spreading that the season will be the worst of them all. In psychological fields that’s called a “self for-filling prophecy”. Look it up.

      ygritte,

      2 things:
      1. Why did they needed to call him. They put it in the season 7 script, and he filmed that scene with Carice van Houten. They should have called back then, you know that is a clear sign you’re dying next season, so you know.
      2. Like any other big show, the tertiary characters (which Varys was) always got sidelined very fast. They are there to help the other characters. After a while even the secondary characters get sidelined, that mostly happened with most shows in the 2 or 3 last episodes of the show, sometimes even earlier.
      I Still only wanted to see a scene with him about LF. So I can see him being mad about that. But if he had a problem with that, he should have gone to D&D and asks why that scene is missing. They would probably were like: You’re right, the fans would like that, episode 1 and 2 is short compared to episode 3 till 6. We will add that.

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    177. mau,

      People need to look back at season 1 till 4. Did they forget that D&D needed to edit all of GRRM scripts because somethings didn’t flow right, or there were parts missing. I remember them adding the best scene from episode 2×09 Blackwater: The Sandor Bronn show-off before the battle. It was an add that was needed.

      ygritte,

      The Long night:
      – Missandei, Sansa, Tyrion show-off
      – Tyrion Sansa together
      – Jorah’s death was beautiful
      – Theon’s dead made me cry like never before
      – The scenery at the beginning was amazing with the dothraki
      – Mellisandre lighting the trench
      – Mellisandre’s end scene (One of the best of the show)
      – Dragon in the snowstorm scene evolving into the most beautiful scenery of the whole saga, above the clouds. (It’s my screensaver now a combination of that and drogon burning wights below that)
      – The NK raising his army and surviving dracarys
      – Sansa, arya at the beginning
      – And I stop here, I think it’s made clear I loved the episode

      Episode 5:
      – The beginning, Varys writing his letters.
      – Varys death
      – Let there be fear
      – Dany destroying the scorpions
      – Cersei crying because she is lost
      – Arya Sandor ending
      – Jaime Tyrion ending
      – Cersei and jaime’s ending (I cried for Cersei so that’s something amazing the writers did and the actors etc)
      – Sandor’s ending with his brother
      – Dany turning, amazingly acted by Emilia, I felt what she went through.
      – Jon stopping his own men from raping and killing.
      – destroying of the red keep
      – Arya with that mother and daughter. (the scene that I think had the biggest adrealine shot pushed through my body ever going through my body in any tv or movie ever)
      – I think I almost told 75% of the episode already and I’m not finished yet
      (only thing I disliked was Euron’s ending. yikes they should just have Jaime killing him instead of having him having a last word. Great praise to Pilou, but I hated Euron (thanks to Pilou amazing acting skills)

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    178. mau,

      Agree, the only ones that want the plotpoints to work are mostly people not hating the season, but just wish those scenes were there.

      Inga,

      Didn’t Adolf wanted to stop the wheel made by the jews? Wasn’t he under the impression the Jews had all the power in the world that needed to be stopped, that they controlled everything and the people needed to be freed of them. That’s even the thoughts of those nazi’s that still live in this world. (Even thinking about this made me sick, not you Inga, I’m glad you still are here discussing things, but all that happen in WW2 and that still people live in this world having that viewpoint)

      What I will say is that Emilia is amazing this season. Can’t say that enough.

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    179. Inga,

      As for Jon, and he learned from it mid-way the show. He turned away from power. Because he felt what being a Free man is.

      As for Dany: You think that there was no power hungry moment. But I have to disagree. Her scene in 1×04 showed that she liked to show power. When she hit her brother (which he deserved true), she liked that power that brough her when she told him Drogo would kill him. She liked power and for a good reason with a brother like that. Something like that can fester in you, and once you have 3 big dragons that can give you anything you desire and a sense that you are the messiah (end of season 3), it would spin anyone’s head.

      So when people say, that she was always this way and it was there, they’re not saying: Dany is a bad person. They are saying that everything needed for the bells was there already. Even when a big part was not hers but her brothers and the fat cheese mongers fault.

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    180. And did I just post so many replies in one sitting.

      Inga,

      Well it has it positive side:

      Woman: Bran the broken, my neighbor just stole my necklage.
      Neighbor: I did not do such thing?
      Bran: Inspector Bran, warg out!
      Bran: You’re neighbor is right, you’re husband stole it. He just gave it to the neighbors wife.

      Woman and neigbor *having a plottwist face*

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    181. Ten Bears,

      As for the Emmys, it will be interesting. For supporting GOT submitted Lena, Maisie and Sophie. I think Maisie is the one with the material and the quality work for the nomination and win. Lena does not have enough for a nomination this season. She may, however, get one and get the win as the “last chance” situation. My bet is that the vote is split between Lena and Maisie and the win goes to another actress/show.

      As for the best actress, I think Emilia will get nominated and may win given the sympathy for her role. I do not usually like her performances but in Season 8, she held her own and could get the win. I will be surprised if Kit is even nominated.

      My favorite actor on the show is Peter and the last two episodes will give him lots of material for the win. NCW will get nominated but I do not anticipate a sympathy win. It will be a little unfair for Peter to get 4 Emmys in a show in which actors like Charles Dance did not get any awards at all.

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    182. Queen of Nothing,

      Thank you so much!!!

      I’m making macaroni & cheese for dinner, because after midnight it’ll be a minimum of 16 hours without food or water. For once in my life, my vampire self wishes I had to be somewhere first thing in the morning—my surgery isn’t until 11!

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    183. Didn’t Adolf wanted to stop the wheel made by the jews? Wasn’t he under the impression the Jews had all the power in the world that needed to be stopped, that they controlled everything and the people needed to be freed of them.

      Huh? The jews never made the wheel, they were run over by it too many tims.He didn’t just have an innocent ‘impression ‘ about the Jews. He was part of the wheel, on to p at that moment. Germanys econimy had tanked thanks to t he Versaiie treaty, and H came to power on the promise to make it alkl better. He chose the Jews beause4 they had beenb the usual scapegoat for thousands of years. He wa able to convince that the Jews were animals and to blame for all their troubles. Unfortunately way too many people were easikly convinced (forgive my typos not sure what is up with my keybard)

      And to respon d to a post from upthreads saying that we shoukldn;t conmpare Danty with Hitlker, The conversation was about how EC resarched him and the films for the scene., And she played that role, if not exactlky Hitler, pretty darn close to the mark

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    184. ACME, wolfish, wimsey and Ten Bears came in about the same time, a few years back when I was recovering from a broken hip. They were among the folks who kept me sane, giving us much to discuss and laugh at! Not sure where ACMe disappeared to, but i miss her commentary

      Wolfish, yu will be in my thoughts Quick healing vibes to you, my friend

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    185. Black Raven,

      Thank you, BR. I love your all-too-rare comments, when you do pop in!

      ACME is a brilliant, charming Frenchwoman who always wrote very thought-provoking (and often very funny) comments. Her criticisms of Ned’s “honorable” reputation were absolutely stellar. I do hope she’s OK.

      ash,

      Thank you so much!!! And yes… From many comments in the last few weeks, I’ve gathered that this site and this fandom have kept many people sane through both physical illness and emotional difficulties. You have all certainly done that for me. 💕

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    186. Just finished watching Long Night, and with the exception of some really dumb military strategies (and not arming the folk in the crypt) I really liked it Seeing arya make her move was so stunning, as really the entire battle. Did have a question tho – I didn’t ee the library scene, did they edit that iut for some reason? so, I give it a8/10 just below my 9/10 scores for ep 1 & 2

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    187. kevin1989,

      Kevin, with respect, but when did Adolf offer anyone a choice “follow me or die”? He restricted the pool of his potential followers to “the Aryans” and decidd to kill or enslave all the rest. If you want a Hitler analogue in GOT, it’s very clearly the Night King – the general you can’t negotiate with. And Dany played exactly the same role as the Soviet Union in the WWII: she helped to beat the baddie and then turned into a baddie herself. (Sure, the true story of the WWII is very different, but that’s the narrative which still seems to dominate in the West, unfortunately).

      Now back to GOT and it’s charracters. You say, Dany enjoyed power? Yes, but every singe female protagonis did: Sansa fed Ramsey to the dogs, Arya massacrewed the Freys, and both did that with a smile on their faces. Every underdog who gets power becomes a bit dangerous. However, most of the people learn to wield it in a cautious way. Dany was the first underdog who got power in the story; moreover, she got it more like a magic gift. Her further arc was about learning to wield that magical power and put it into good use. And the story implied that she learned. If they intended to establish her as a future tyrant, she shoud have turned the Slavers’ Bay into the blood-bath. For me it was very hard to accept, that somehow slave revolt did not descent into a massacrew of all the masters including women and children, because that’s what happens usually when you have a underdog revolt. However, GoT is a fictional story; so, I suspended my disbelief and accepted that somehow Dany made a miracle. And then after the show established that Dany made a miracle/laened to wield power, they forced her to make a U-turn with no good reason at all. Sorry, guys, that’s cheating, especially on the background of promising a “bittersweet ending”, calling the last book “The Dream of Spring”, and implying parallels to the Wars of Roses. And I don’t like to be cheeted. Hence, I reject this ending and write my own (almost done with that). Sure, I’m still very grateful to the cast and crew for enganging me into this story to the certain point and a’m also very grateful to the fandom – I have never had such an experience before. But the writers (both GRRM and D&D) have totally lost my respect. Period.

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    188. ash,

      Sure, we should make comparrisons, but those comparisons should be educated, and it’s more important to differences, rather than simply swallow spoon-fed visual similarities.

        Quote  Reply

    189. kevin1989,

      Thanks for listing your highlights of the episodes. And to others who might have as well, as I could not read much here today. The enthusiasm is contagious and helping to drown out the negativity of late 🙂

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    190. kevin1989,

      I was meaning it more to say the same thing back to people who say the same to me just for not liking the final seasons as much as they did.

      I think we just need to agree to disagree on Dany, yes it was foreshadowed but I don’t think they got her to where she needed to be in order to do the things she did. They rushed it and forced it.

      Even worse, there was no remembrance of Dany. What you said about Drogon dropping her off in Mereen would’ve been cool or if they kept Jorah alive to bring her body back or whatever. She was just gone and forgotten by everyone, like she never existed. The Unsullied and Dothraki did nothing about it which was very uncharacteristic.

      D & D just desperately wanted to be done with Game of Thrones to move on to other things, but they owed it to HBO, George, the fanbase and everyone who had been invested in the series to give the story the finish it needed. It was a selfish act on their part, they should’ve passed the series off to someone else rather than rush it. But they simultaneously wanted to be done with it while reaping the benefits of keeping the entire series to themselves and all the money and Emmys that come along with it.

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    191. That’s totally lazy and unsupported speculation that D&D wanted to move on to Star Wars and be done with GOT as soon as possible. Whilst we cannot say it’s not true it feels very unlikely to me given how much time they invested in the show.

      I have some criticisms of parts of seasons 7 & 8, noticeably the pacing and at times the writing but D&D knew this was their legacy and I doubt they wanted it tarnished to simply rush it.

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    192. Dee Stark,

      Lol Dee, okay for the opposite angle what was your biggest disappointment of the season in general and also the biggest one for episode 3 the Long night? Did you get bored with Arya’s library scene? Who would you have liked to see crowned at the end, or just no more kings and queens? I honestly had no specific hopes for that really, I just wanted Jon to be recognized and honored even if he refused. I don’t like that he was “sent” to the wall and was told to go by his co-conspirator.

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    193. ash,

      I see you didn’t read my comment. Just making you’re assumption. I never stated the jews made the wheel. I said Adolf saw it that way. I didn’t say he was right. In fact he was wrong on so many levels.

      But his whole rise to power was by convincing the people that the Jews were in power and taking everything from the people. If you watch Schindler’s List or Der Utergang it’s even stated in those movies that hitler thought that. Even now the Nazi-scum that I saw on the news keeps on getting bigger in Germany again, at least that says the news here this week, blaming the Jews for controlling everything.

      So no the jews didn’t build the wheel, they never controlled the wheel either, it’s just a lie that Adolf told the people to rise into power. (Even in the show the Starks, Lannisters etc didn’t build the wheel.

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    194. Wolfish,

      Get well soon.

      ash,

      I think having some military faults is for me a sign of good writing. Why? they didn’t have the time to prepare for a attack like this. They would have needed 1 or 2 weeks more at least. Meaning that having a excellent military strategy would also imply that they had enough time to prepare.

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    195. Jon Snowed,

      They had developed Confederate to the point where HBO made a big announcement about it, all while working on GoT. Disney made a huge announcement on their Star Wars movie right after GoT ended. It’s on the schedule. You know how much work D and D put into that for Disney to schedule it? They probably wrote the script.

      They were bored with GoT, it came across in interviews and they took it all for granted. Sadly they got ahead of themselves and thought they could coast through the end of GoT and in the process wrecked their legacy on the show 🙁

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    196. Inga,

      I never state Dany and Adolf are the same, I said that there were things overlapping with how they look at the world and how they look at their Ideology, which in that last part it’s all overlapping fully. They both would kill without stopping for their ideology. As long as their ideology is fulfilled, their interpretation of a paradise.
      With both if they had lived, they would have killed all (100%) of the people standing between their view of paradise. She even stated it to Jon that everyone needed to die who does not agree with her. So yes, how that ideology is filled is different. But their endgoal is the same, envision that paradise no matter what, kill all that will not fit in that paradise.

      And you know that Emilia, the writers, directors (and some other actors) stated that her scenes were heavily influenced by hitler. Why else did you think Emilia looked up his speeches, it was not because she felt it was a nice watch. No, it was that she needed to see that horror to get into her role for the final.

      And It baffles me that some forget that part, what the actors, directors etc say because there’s a reason why they said that and worked those scenes like that.

      Back to Dany:
      Do we really need to go back to this list of other characters even when last time we discussed it many stated the wrongs you did with those comparisons. But short version again.
      Sansa: yes she enjoyed the power over the person who raped her, defiled her tortured her etc. She only showed it with Ramsay, which was a dark turn, we all feared she would stay with that but Sansa decided to turn back to the good side. All she did after that was for the safety of her family.
      Arya: Arya never enjoyed power, she never wanted any recognition or fame for it. It was revenge and dark and evil, but as Sansa (and opposed to Dany) she decided to end that dark route. And other difference is. Sansa and Arya both did it (and that smile) for revenge after that it’s over. Is it good no. But Dany all did it for her ideology, in the end that’s more dangerous.

      and now you seems to understand why Dany turn dark, her magic gift. At least I hope you see why this is connected to her feeling she was the savior of all of men kind, and her view is 100% the right way. The god’s gave her that gift to envision it.

      And as stated before she stated many times that she wanted to turn slaver’s bay into a bloodbad, even somebody stated her scenes in 5×09 that the innocents lives that would have died when Mereen was going back to the dirt was for a good cause. (yikes tyrant talk already in 5×09 but I think dany fans just think, you go girl turn that city to dust)
      And why did she not kill those slaves? Because they would follow her, she freed them. They chose their freedom, they stood up against their masters instead of collaborating with their master Cersei what the people of KL did. And it’s also her ideology that made that choice.

      And I never hated Dany, I loved her, and as you saw I called her the Hero of episode 8×03 back here. But somehow I can be open to other views than that I had since season 1. You seem not to be open for it, even if the truth lies before you. You seem to hold onto the same arguments you had before season 8 began when we also had arguments here that many thought Dany were going this route, now the truth is out and you would not admit it.

      Look up what GRRM think about people writing fanfiction and alternative endings. My opinion also. If you need their story to end your own story it’s very unoriginal. and that fanfiction will never be canon, at the end of the day, what happened on screen is canon. (and the books)

      And yes maybe they had lost your respect, they gained mine. I’m glad they didn’t go with the cliche Dany is Mary Sue ending and gave us a real amazing Ending instead.

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    197. ygritte,

      We will help you good Ygritte. And it’s always good to look at the good things instead the bad. Even if it’s just one moment in an episode. At least that makes your day better and your week brighter. And You’re life better. At least that’s my take on it 😀 I was very disappointed the NK was gone after episode 3, it was not my plan how I envision this season. And I wanted more information etc of them. I was mad for about 2 days and after that I watch again and I though, why am I complaining. It’s awesome. And people here like Wimsey made me interesting in the next episode.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      I agree that the build up could be better, I really wished they went with a 7 (or 8 episode season if they split the final). If they had split episode 4 into the north part and after that the south part with Dany her missing 2 weeks maybe ending with death of Varys I think it would have flown better.But I think we are all smart enough to fill in those 2 weeks after how she changed already at the beginning. Many have lost already people so I think we all understand how that feels.

      And yes I really wanting that Dany burial scene, because it would have upped the emotion for me, she chose Westeros over Daario. It destroyed her. If she had stayed in Essos she would have lived and be happy and changed things for the better.

      And I’m wondering if in the books Tyrion is Darker and set her on that Dark journey. Book Tyrion is much less of a good guy than the show Tyrion.

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    198. Jon Snowed,

      People forget that if GoT ended bad it could result into shareholders dropping out of their projects. They even could have replaced D&D for the SW sequels. It happened before.

      And as I remember they wrote season 7 and 8’s outline in one sitting. That was just after season 6 premiered if I’m not mistaken. Spring 2016. I think Star Wars got to them in 2018. 2 years later.
      And didn’t they always say, around 70 episodes. They didn’t want to shoot the golden goose.

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    199. ygritte,

      I didn’t like that library scene, but it was needed for a action break. That scene and the end of Lyanna mormont were two minusses in the episode for me. (lyanna should have killed the wight giant less perfect, they die if they get stabbed by dragonglass, so just pinching it would have been enough). I wish they had her slash at his jaw, much more realistic, just stab what he is pointing at you.

      As for me the ending was perfect, I said before to my partner:
      – I want Arya to live and going west, she told that in season 6.
      – I want Jon to go back to Thormund and Ghost. He need a rest of duty.
      – Tyrion must live, but will die probably.
      – I want Dany, Drogon (glad he lived in the end) and Grey worm death (disapointed still here)
      – And I wanted Sansa to be queen of the 7 kingdoms or Bran. Somehow they gave me both. Why them, because they will not suffer from it. I don’t want somebody on that throne who will want to die while sitting on it.

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    200. kevin1989,

      Sorry, but I don’t see Dany having an ideology. All I see is an inconsistent character forced into a snap. Development of a tyrant is a serious issue which should be taken and addressed seriuously, not by checking some rather irrelevant boxes. And that’s a problem: if people has so little understandig about how a real tyrany develops and works, if they tend to replace real things with fantasies, how can they they protect themselves from that?

      As for writing “fanfictions” I don’t really care what GRRM thinks. “Fanfictions” and remakes have been made from the dawn of humankind. As for my own fanfiction, I don’t plan to publish it anywere: I’ll save it on my PC next to 70 episodes of GOT, just in case I’ll ever decide to rwatch them, and then move to the real history, which is much more interesting and inspiring than GRRM’s overtwisted fantasy world.

      But anyway, it was nice to meet you. Being in a fandom was an interesting experience, af ter all. Thank you.

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    201. Northern Breeze: As a book reader and longtime show watcher and lurker on this site, I’m baffled by this sentiment. I just don’t see it. I feel this show is a masterpiece, in it’s entirety. That it will age extremely well and be remembered for its daring and its brilliance. I’ve loved it to the end.

      I cannot agree with you more fully. I am still “Unsullied” and have not read any of George RR Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire (mostly because I disdain the thought of him likely not completing the series). The Game of Thrones television series has taken fantasy adaptation to an unprecedented social and technological level that will certainly stand the test of time. I would not be surprised at all if Game of Thrones becomes to television what World of the Worlds represented to radio or PacMan to video games. I believe the story, as a whole, was well thought out, very well acted, and the behind-the-scenes work by the crews exemplary.

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    202. kevin1989,

      And yes I really wanting that Dany burial scene, because it would have upped the emotion for me, she chose Westeros over Daario. It destroyed her. If she had stayed in Essos she would have lived and be happy and changed things for the better.

      Oh my no – that scene with him scooping her up (into his arms if he would have) and carried her away to the unknown was moving and spot on perfect She was his monther. He blasted away what killed her, then brough her home, perhaps where the dragons dance… you do have a point, it would have symbolizzed her home.. Tho I suspect at that point in time, they’d be few mourners, esp around KL

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    203. Hypatia: The Game of Thrones television series has taken fantasy adaptation to an unprecedented social and technological level that will certainly stand the test of time. I would not be surprised at all if Game of Thrones becomes to television what World of the Worlds represented to radio or PacMan to video games.I believe the story, as a whole, was well thought out, very well acted, and the behind-the-scenes work by the crews exemplary.

      Indeed. The show has engaged so intensely so many people from such a variety of cultures and disparate backgrounds, it’s an amazing achievement. This has been one of the first globally shared cultural journeys when it comes to episodic television, and it’s lasted nearly a decade, with more people caring more intensely each year.

      If I step back and try to understand this phenomenon we’re in the midst of, with a significant portion of the show’s devoted audience suddenly raging at the story they’ve loved and it’s tellers as it finally comes to an end, I wonder if it may be a kind of communal grief that we’re witnessing, a grief which fuels the rage. Grief that it’s ending, and that it’s not what was expected (too little, too fast, too cursory, not enough explored or explained, not enough … ). A grief commensurate to the devotion this extraordinary production has so successfully elicited.

      The show will stand the test of time. I think it will long be studied by those who study such things. And this extraordinary social reaction to its conclusion will be too.

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    204. Agreed on so much. Yeah, I’m so 10000% with Vanessa on everything re: Dany. I started to dislike characters this season that I’d loved all along because the establishment of “ooh boy we got a mad queen on our hands” was done so falsely. You had people suddenly distrusting her or automatically disliking, disrespecting, and being unwelcoming/ungrateful toward her…for pretty weak reasons. But then it turns out that the “she’s not one of us” northern attitude and Cersei’s whole spiel about savage foreign invaders and even Robert wanting to kill the Targaryen girl–they were all right?! God, poor Dany just got thrown under the freaking BUS while pretty much everyone else got relatively happy endings. If hers had been better this would’ve been Disney. I don’t hold her responsible for her actions because normal, non-mad Dany never in her right mind would have pointlessly rampaged through the streets (HER streets!) AFTER WINNING HER LIFE’S GOAL while her actual enemy went a-tiptoeing down past Cleganebowl. She just, blew a fuse, I guess, and on a dime her whole philosophy was rewritten into something nonsensical. The tragic fate of a madman’s incest baby, I suppose. D;

      Morally grey people think they’re so noble and point at some mildly-to-moderately questionable decisions in Dany’s past like “We should’ve known,” thinking they’re somehow explaining what happened to her and very much failing. Arya should have adored her, but no, all of a sudden she’s Sansa’s bestie (lying through her teeth about Sansa being the smartest person she’s ever met–girl!! Not even top ten!) I wanted her to take Hot Pie exploring with her; he could have a traveling food wagon. x)
      I’ll always love Jaime, but he disappointed me too, of course. He couldn’t even have stabbed Cersei–if only so she wouldn’t have to be crushed? Idk, she deserved a more epic and horrible death, but at least that would’ve been kind of a neat Jonerys parallel…:/ Even Brienne dying in his arms, putting a spin on where we thought/hoped we were going with them, would’ve been preferable. ><

      Dumbed-down Tyrion getting to fail upwards, Sansa becoming QitN (I do NOT like her), very-possibly-bad-guy Bran being elected king (I'm concerned for the future), all the telling-not-showing and the mind-blowing lack of payoff for so many built-up things…none of that thrilled me. The very powers that make Bran an…interesting choice, he neglected to use for good all season long. He only spilled dirt on Baelish after Sansa evidently asked what he thought about putting Arya on trial. It's creepy to say the least.

      Omg, what Varys heard in the flames is absolutely NOT a "throwaway line"–it's one of the intriguing mysteries that should've been revealed and resolved and tied together in awesome ways. Forcing people to have to guess at and headcanon so much isn't right. You can't set things up, get people interested and theorizing, then neglect to follow through and deliver on them. Not at the end of the greatest show ever. I keep expecting them to say, "Just kidding! Here's the real ending!" 'Cause this…just didn't match up with everything they'd been promising us.

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    205. Thank you Samantha, Vanessa, and Axey (what a lovely surprise!) for this Night’s Cast episode!! I am slowly catching up on all these posts after becoming RW busy immediately after the finale.

      I’m glad that certain people lived, I’m sad that certain people died, and I can’t wait to read the books. The End.” – Axey encapsulating my thoughts so succinctly haha!

      I am definitely happy that the Iron Throne was destroyed and that the Great Council was enacted to elect their next monarch. Yes, I would have loved what Sam proposed but baby steps!

      I do have to agree with what all of you said regarding Dany’s sharp turn into villainy. I do see GRRM doing this but the show didn’t really do enough to make me believe she would just up and burn the entire city of KL. Ozzy Man mentioned in one of his recaps that they were really under utilising certain characters. He was referring to “The Long Night” but I really think D&D should have started this villainous plot back in S7, if not earlier. They really could have used Missandei and Greyworm to re-frame Dany’s past actions. Tyrion’s dialogue in the finale reeeallly should have come much earlier. Missandei and Greyworm could have been great vehicles to do this, say in conversation with other Westerosi characters we know (Davos, Sam, etc.) about why they chose to follow Dany. They would recount what she did in Essos and Dragon’s Bay, then through the other characters we would actually realise, woah, that’s actually pretty crazy.

      I do love that Drogon lived and whisked away his dead mother. **Sobs** I also liked the parallels between Jon and Aemon. Aemon abdicated in order to serve as a Maester and go to the Night’s Watch, and Jon, despite being the rightful heir, goes to the Night’s Watch to essentially retire haha.

      I also like that you brought up the whole Jon stabbing Dany as fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy. I still contend that Azor Ahai is not a prophecy at all but the origin story of dragons. When I first read the “prophecy” in ASOIAF, to me, it read more like a fable. Also, I don’t entirely agree that the “wheel” has been broken. I commented on Akash’s great article about that.

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    206. Oh also, I have to agree with Samantha (I think it was?) – don’t know why Bronn is even in the Small Council. I do think his character is quite hilarious and entertaining but he should have died way back in S2. If not then, definitely during the Loot Train Attack. Bronn surviving all of this is the one thing I am truly upset about. Although, I did read GRRM is a fan of Bronn so I’ll just prepare myself for his survival in ASOIAF as well.

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    207. Dark Sister,

      I wouldn’t be so sure about Bronn’s survival in the books, as George recently commented that the show is keeping some supporting characters around purely because they are popular, and I’m quite sure he meant Bronn (George later clarified that he didn’t hate the character or the actor’s portrayal of him).

      Bronn has some good lines, and he is played wonderfully by Jerome, but I agree that he should have died (in the Loot Train attack, imo). Having him on the small council is pretty ridiculous, and there is practically no chance that happens in the books.

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    208. Enharmony1625,

      George later clarified that he didn’t hate the character or the actor’s portrayal of him.

      Yes! That’s what I was remembering so thank you for clarifying haha! I’m happy George is not attached then.

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    209. Wolfish:
      Queen of Nothing,

      Thank you so much!!!

      I’m making macaroni & cheese for dinner, because after midnight it’ll be a minimum of 16 hours without food or water. For once in my life, my vampire self wishes I had to be somewhere first thing in the morning—my surgery isn’t until 11!

      With or without surgery Mac & Cheese is a favorite of mine! At this point you are likely out of surgery and on the road to recovery. Stay healthy my friend. XO

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    210. kevin1989,

      Sorry I misread your thread above – im still recovering from my last day at school and should be in front of a keyboad! Basically tyrants have many similarites, one of them being making a living hell for the rest of us. Dani is one – That film she imitated was spot on – we will control the world, we will kill those who are not us, ad we are the superior beings. The rest, thay say Is history (btw Kevin Ive been enjoying your posts even if i cant read)

      Inga I agree that early on the story made her out ot be a savior but as the story went own we saw her advisors holding her back, Perhaps there should have been more shadowing (like Bran and several other threads left’ hanging) but having watched her face ovre change during ep 4, that was the only choice she thought she had to get her life long dream The flames were not an if but a when..

      ( and wish someone had taughter her (AND jon as wel) some questioning techniques that would clear up miscomunication and assumptios Glad we do such a better job nowadays…..:)

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    211. Enharmony1625:
      Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,

      Well, you know how I feel about any scenario in which Arya would have died. 🙂 But in seriousness, there are a few things around her Faceless Men plot that perhaps left some questions in the air. After having some time to think about it after the end of the series, this is how I interpret it.

      The Faceless Men did try to kill her for abandoning them and not killing the target they gave her, but Arya “Not Today” Stark killed the Waif instead, so the debt was paid and a face was added to the hall. At that point, Jaqen had no cause to kill her, so he had no choice but to let her go. The fact that she basically was a rogue Faceless assassin at that point was on Jaqen — his mistake, his screw-up.

      Besides, she only used her FM powers once since leaving to kill the Freys. How would Jaqen have known that unless he was following her around? Seems like he had better things to do than that.

      I suppose we could wonder if that was Jaqen’s plan all along, or that he had some vested interest in having Arya return to Westeros to kill the NK. I choose not to think so. As per the show, I think Jaqen just saw in Arya a talent for being a FM and recruited her for that purpose.

      The whole purpose of her FM plot is to show how pursuing revenge can cost you your very self — your identity. It did seem for a brief period that she was No One (after drinking from the pool in season 6), but after seeing the play and refusing to kill Lady Crane, she rejected it all and retook her identity as Arya Stark.

      It’s JUne 1. I’ve enjoyed this thread, especially your comments/insights, Wolfish and dear Ten Bear. But I think everyone is very insightful.

      You’re right–the NK is her last kill. A couple of years ago I examined oddities in what Jaqen did for her training and deduced he had customised it for her. She needed to be No One to use Faces, but other than that, much of it actually reinforced her Stark identity. So he/they probably had a hidden agenda for her having to do with the Great War. We knew Bran chose her and probably the MFG. In Ep 3 we learn the LoL chose her too. Maybe they’re one god or just allied to defeat their mutual enemy. And so she could give up killing with their permission–having done what she was destined to do. You spoke above of salvation. I think Sandor started it. But after what Arya witnessed and especially the charred mother and child, she planned vengeance on Dany..then the White Horse appeared. Whatever it symbolised, she could take it and leave or stay for vengeance. She hesitated but left. When she talks to JOn, she warns him that Dany will always consider her a threat. And as they watch Dany go, she says she knows a killer (murderer) when she sees one. People mock that without realising its significance–she’s hinting that Dany will kill him if he doesn’t kill her first. But Arya doesn’t touch her.

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