New stills from season 7 released include new look at Sansa Stark and other heroines

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New stills from season 7 have been released, offering a closer look at where we’ll find Arya, Daenerys and Sansa come this July.

An article in the Los Angeles Times analyzing the increasingly prominent and empowering role women are playing in Game of Thrones included a gallery that featured three new stills from the upcoming season.

The most interesting of the three features Sansa, presumably Winterfell, sporting the long-sleeves-and-chains style of dress that appears to be all the rage in season 7, albeit with some distantly Stark adornment.

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The other two stills are of Arya and Daenerys are similar to photos released in April but taken from different angles.

3 Arya

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97 responses

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    1. Both Arya and Dany look a little emotional in their photos.
      I love Sansa’s dress but I wonder what’s going on in Sansa’s scene as she looks a little out if it, it kinda looks like the look people on drugs give when they are utterly high. They could’ve chosen a more flattering picture one that doesn’t make her look dead inside.

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    2. Mel: …it kinda looks like the look people on drugs give when they are utterly high. They could’ve chosen a more flattering picture one that doesn’t make her look dead inside.

      I’m guessing that they looked hard for one and this is the best they could find. 😛 Okay, sorry. I have GOT to stop!! :/

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    3. The Sansa photo has me worried about Sophie’s wig… Interesting that the article flew under the radar. Usually the official Game of Thrones social media accounts share stories with new photos or footage. Nice eye, Petra!

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    4. Vincent Stark:
      Sansa has a pointed shoulder outfit now, so she is officially a strong woman.

      LOL!!!

      Mel:
      Both Arya and Dany look a little emotional in their photos.
      I love Sansa’s dress but I wonder what’s going on in Sansa’s scene as she looks a little out if it, it kinda looks like the look people on drugs give when they are utterly high. They could’ve chosen a more flattering picture one that doesn’t make her look dead inside.

      I think that I’d likely be a raving lunatic if I was any of them at this point, perhaps ‘dead inside’ is a coping mechanism.

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    5. I think Sansa just looks tired, you know considering what shes been through. People are just taking the picture as it is. She looks more badass to me 👌

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    6. Always glad to get new info but sadly (for me) Dany and Sansa are two of my least favourite characters so I don’t really care about these pics. Arya on the other hand is one of my favourites so there is some positive for me:) I’m assuming from this pic she could be at the Inn perhaps with Ed Sheeren and Hot Pie?

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    7. Clob: I’m guessing that they looked hard for one and this is the best they could find.😛 Okay, sorry.I have GOT to stop!!:/

      I really do think that we’re connected on a spiritual level sometimes…😂

      I really don’t think her wig is that bad though, is it? I am pretty much hair twins with Sophie, both long, fine, blonde, and trust me when it gets damaged it starts looking pretty thin at the hairline really quickly. Aside from the wig being a bit denser, it doesn’t look like a helmet or anything.

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    8. Ryan Neuner,

      We are comparing it to her real hair which is something we usually don’t do in GOT but when you see Sansa’s wig and see Dany’s wig you just know which one they invested more money into it. Let’s just hope the two of them don’t share any scenes as It would be even more noticeable.

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    9. Lovely, if slightly “pointless” pictures !

      Vincent Stark:
      Sansa has a pointed shoulder outfit now, so she is officially a strong woman.

      Ha ! 😛

      No worry on that front. As we all know, the only legitimate form of strength is despising girly stuff, having a sword and stabbing people in the face. Those are the signs of a real strong female character. 😉

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    10. I’m not a fan of Sansa’s ring-necklace, but it just occurred to me from this photo that it could definitely prove functional – if someone in her immediate vicinity badly needed to be garroted, for example, or dragged behind a galloping horse. I wouldn’t mind seeing Littlefinger dangling by the neck from the walls of Winterfell.

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    11. Firannion,
      I don’t know how this ring-idea came to be, but this design together with the needle-thing, the shoulder thingies and the upper part of the dress (feathery lines) are reminiscent of the Dark Sansa/Raven-Dress from the end of S4.

      The neck sausages were seen in Cat’s dresses. And in the other new Sansa dress people are seeing the Flayed Man of the Boltons as some sort of abstract pattern. So together with the lovely little direwolves, it seems like they wanted to really cram all the influences in there.

      Though to be honest, with the leathery belt, it has some weird Dominatrix vibes… Hmm.

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    12. Firannion,

      I think you, Ten Bears and Pigeon need to get together and write a fan letter to Aidan Gillen, listing all the ways you’ve thought of to dispose of Littlefinger. He’d probably laugh his ass off.

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    13. I’m not actually eager to see LF’s role come to an end; I find him a juicy character whose scheming always serves to keep the mix interesting (even if he is a nasty little git who thoroughly deserves whatever unpleasant end is being reserved for him). There’s a piece of me that greatly admires Petyr’s intellect, his determination, his patience, his sharp observational skills and his way of making an artform of passive aggression. I can relate to wanting to survive and thrive just to spite the powerful people who underestimated you!

      I just saw Aidan Gillen last night in the movie The Lovers. Aside from his accent being all over the place, as usual, he was quite good, and played a rather charming character – in a somewhat healthier way than Lord Baelish, even if a bit overly demanding. Not a great movie; I’d recommend it mostly to those who want a reminder that Debra Winger is still a fine actress.

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    14. Wolfish:
      Firannion,

      I think you, Ten Bears and Pigeon need to get together and write a fan letter to Aidan Gillen, listing all the ways you’ve thought of to dispose of Littlefinger. He’d probably laugh his ass off.

      Ooh but I don’t WANT Littlefinger dead. Heck, if anyone has earned/played/manipulated their way to the stupid uncomfortable porcupine seat, it’s him.

      Actually, what I don’t want is for him to die in a stupid fashion. There could be some wonderfully fantastic ways to go (personally, I think it’d be great if he fell off a laddahhhh). But for the love of all that is unpredictable, I don’t want him to go because Sansa tells someone to kill him. Lame-o. I know she can’t even hold on to a corkscrew to save her life, but if he’s another passive-aggressive Ramsay type of death, blah!!!

      I still can’t believe no one has stepped on a nail and died of tetanus.

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    15. Firannion,

      Thank you for the movie recommendation!

      Pigeon,

      LMAOOO!!! And yeah, the corkscrew bit made me scream the first time I saw it.

      Incidentally, I once had to get a tetanus shot because I’d just rescued a mouse from my cat and the poor thing bit me.

      Back on topic, though: I actually love Sansa’s look here. I hope she has some ninja stars stashed under those shoulder pads.

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    16. HelloThere,

      I believe Emilia has two different colors in her iris from what I’ve read and seen. Her inner Iris is green and her outer iris is blue so in different lightings her eyes appear different colors ranging from green to blue to different multiple shades of blue.

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    17. Wolfish:
      Firannion,

      Thank you for the movie recommendation!

      Pigeon,

      LMAOOO!!! And yeah, the corkscrew bit made me scream the first time I saw it.

      Incidentally, I once had to get a tetanus shot because I’d just rescued a mouse from my cat and the poor thing bit me.

      Back on topic, though: I actually love Sansa’s look here. I hope she has some ninja stars stashed under those shoulder pads.

      I love her look as well. The costuming is just A+. And I think I may be the only person who doesn’t think the wig is that bad at all. 😜

      Oh Lord. Rescuing a mouse is something I would do, too. My most recent tetanus shot was due to falling through rotting stairs and putting 3 rusty nails straight through my kneecap. Why? Returning a baby pigeon to it’s nest. Yup, I am not the best decision maker (and should have used a laddahhhh instead!!!)

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    18. Pigeon: Ooh but I don’t WANT Littlefinger dead. Heck, if anyone has earned/played/manipulated their way to the stupid uncomfortable porcupine seat, it’s him.

      Actually, what I don’t want is for him to die in a stupid fashion. There could be some wonderfully fantastic ways to go (personally, I think it’d be great if he fell off a laddahhhh). But for the love of all that is unpredictable, I don’t want him to go because Sansa tells someone to kill him. Lame-o. I know she can’t even hold on to a corkscrew to save her life, but if he’s another passive-aggressive Ramsay type of death, blah!!!

      I still can’t believe no one has stepped on a nail and died of tetanus.

      That made my LOL. I needed a good laugh. I have this love/hate thing with Baelish. He is the master of manipulation and one has to wonder where would some of these storylines gone without Littlefinger. And if he will die this season I hope it is a death worthy of this bastard I love to hate.

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    19. Pigeon:
      Rescuing a mouse is something I would do, too. My most recent tetanus shot was due to falling through rotting stairs and putting 3 rusty nails straight through my kneecap. Why? Returning a baby pigeon to its nest. Yup, I am not the best decision maker (and should have used a laddahhhh instead!!!)

      OMG. You’re a heroine!!! Just reading that made me twitch in Daffy Duck-like ways.

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    20. ACME: No worry on that front. As we all know, the only legitimate form of strength is despising girly stuff, having a sword and stabbing people in the face. Those are the signs of a real strong female character. 😉

      Of course!! It boggles my mind that people dare to suggest strength could be anything other than that!! (kidding, obviously).

      Sooooo nice to read you again, ACME!!!

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    21. I think Sansa’s outfit looks awesome.

      Winter’s here.

      She’s the Lady of Winterfell.

      She’s gonna be spending most of her day chilling next to the badass King In The North.

      And she’s still got Littlefinger lurking around trying to mess with her head.

      The very least she can do is to dress like a boss.

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    22. Pigeon,
      I have been bracing myself for Baelish’s death since Book 1 but, no matter how prepared I am, it is still going to break my non-existent heart…

      So long, my favourite character ! You magnificent, manipulative, morally-vacant bastard !

      A Dornish Tyrell:
      Sooooo nice to read you again, ACME!!!

      Sooooo very mutual, dearest Dornish !!!!

      How you doin’, my friend ?

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      She’s gonna be spending most of her day chilling next to the badass King In The North.

      Between Sansa’s kinky leather belt and Jon’s fancy armor, the North is going full GQ !
      Got to look spiffy to fight ice zombies… ^^

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    23. Vincent Stark:
      Sansa has a pointed shoulder outfit now, so she is officially a strong woman.

      Sansa is looking and acting more and more like Queen Cersei.

      I think Sansa will be looking for more power in season 7

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    24. Pigeon: what I don’t want is for him to die in a stupid fashion. There could be some wonderfully fantastic ways to go (personally, I think it’d be great if he fell off a laddahhhh).

      Seems to me that poetic justice for Baelish would be to get caught up in some trap of his own design – to have his ‘perfect’ scheme backfire on him, fatally. (A laddah might still be peripherally involved.) That would be much more satisfying than simply having Arya slit his throat with his own knife or whatever.

      In the books, of course, there is still the chance that Lady Stoneheart will get hold of him. I wouldn’t mind that at all. There just has to be some sort of irony involved – like the scene in Cabin in the Woods where the guy who always bets on the Merman comes to the realization that said Merman is about to munch him. Not only is his death going to be painful and horrific, but embarrassing as well. I want to see Aidan with that same sinking feeling on his face for at least a few heartbeats before it’s all over.

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    25. Firannion: (A laddah might still be peripherally involved.)

      I would love for Benioff and Weiss who, I believe, both studied Irish literature to insert a reference to the last verses of Yeats’s The Circus Animals’ Desertion into Littlefinger’s death scene : “Now that my ladder’s gone / I must lie down where all the ladders start / In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart.”

      Anachronistic ? Completely. But come on ! It is Irish and it is about someone’s precious ladder being gone… It would be a lovely Easter egg ^^

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    26. firstone: Sansa is looking and acting more and more like Queen Cersei.

      I think Sansa will be looking for more power in season 7

      If we’re doing Sansa/Cersei comparisons, one I find really interesting is 209 vs 609; in 209 (Blackwater) Sansa is shocked when Cersei tells her that Stannis may take the city but he won’t take them alive, and later we see Cersei come very close to a murder/suicide with Tommen to prevent Stannis capturing them – contrast this with Sansa telling Jon in 609 (Battle of the Bastards) that if Ramsay wins, she isn’t going back to Winterfell alive.

      ACME: I would love for Benioff and Weiss who, I believe, both studied Irish literature to insert a reference to the last verses of Yeats’s The Circus Animals’ Desertion into Littlefinger’s death scene : “Now that my ladder’s gone / I must lie down where all the ladders start / In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart.”

      Anachronistic ? Completely. But come on ! It is Irish and it is about someone’s precious ladder being gone… It would be a lovely Easter egg ^^

      Would also fit in very well with LF’S speech at the end of 306 – “Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder.”

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    27. All look wonderful!

      Intrigued as always what will befall my Stark girls, and what else Bran might uncover through his tree-seeing ish.

      The interactions between Arya and Sansa are at the top of my most-anticipated list.

      Can’t wait!

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    28. I’m really curious what Sansa is hearing/seeing in that picture. Her face says a lot but I cant tell what it is.
      She’s amazing.

      Can’t wait.

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    29. Ayman,

      Me too. Stunning. And I love Dany. She is one of my favorites.

      I was actually watching season 2 lately and just watched the last three episodes of the season and you don’t really see her in episodes 8 and 9 of season 2, and when I saw her in epi 10 i told my sister, i don’t like episodes without her! hahaha

      IM SOOOOOOOOOOOOO EXCITED to see her arrive in Westeros. I wonder what she will do. How she will react.

      And I love Emilia.

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    30. firstone,

      Yeah after LF brainwashes her.
      Initially, that is not what she wanted to get Winterfell back for. She wanted revenge on Ramsay

      Ugh, i am soooooooooo nervous for the Sansa/LF/Jon stuff…. i know deep in my heart that Sansa would never betray her family again, after what she has been through. So i am hoping that she will make LF think she is falling for his ploys, but in the end she will betray LF.

      But, sometimes i worry, because i think back to how Lady died, and how that may have been foreshadowing Sansa’s place in the future.

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    31. Mel,

      I didn’t know that about Emilia’s irises. A little bit off-topic but I only very recently realised that Lena Headey’s eyes are green (I’d always assumed she was blue-eyed) so despite wearing a wig to play Cersei she does have the right colour eyes for book Cersei. NCW’s look brown to me but I’m not sure.

      I hope the show doesn’t go all “girl power” in the last 2 seasons. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in favour of strong women characters, but I don’t want that to be at the expense of making all the men wimps. I enjoy GoT even with it dropping the occasional clanger (like where do the dragons sleep crossing the narrow sea – that’s not from me, it’s from Secrets of the Citadel, I wish I had been sharp enough to pick that up). But let’s have strong CHARACTERS of BOTH sexes. Well Jon and Tyrion are strong I guess – I quite like Finn Jones but his show character (Loras) WAS a little watered down from his book character. I think he COULD have pulled off an adaptation of Loras who was closer to his book counterpart.

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    32. Dee Stark: Yeah after LF brainwashes her.

      Brainwash may be a bit strong a word, may it not ? 🙂

      Littlefinger is a cunning and shady bugger, of that there is no doubt, but he is not actually a cult leader. He convinces and persuades people. Most of the time, he does not even lie to them; at worst, he conveniently omits certain parts of the truth (usually the bits that point towards him as the culprit 😉 )

      Did Varys “brainwash” Tyrion into agreeing to meet and serve Daenerys when, at the time, all the younger Lannister wanted to do was drink himself into a prolonged coma ? Or did he convince him to tag along by presenting truthful arguments, selected and crafted based on what he knew Tyrion would respond to ?

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    33. Dee Stark,

      Whatever you feel deep in your heart about one of George’s characters, we don’t know what’s in his heart/mind so it all depends on covfefe. She could do a 180 evil turn for worse or she could end up saving the realm we really have no clue cause as I hear, though I never read it, that he likes to provide twists and shocks.

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    34. Dee Stark,

      In Littlefinger’s own words:

      “Always keep your foes confused. If they don’t know who you are, or what you want, they can’t know what you plan to do next”

      If Sansa is going to outflank Littlefinger then he has to believe that she’s falling for his mind games.

      Having said that, I’m still worried like you are that she won’t survive the season.

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    35. ACME,

      Littlefinger’s control over Sansa has been brainwashing.

      He’s been grooming her since she was a teenager in a vulnerable position. Approaching her seemingly as a friend, manipulating her and taking advantage of all her traumas and naivety and insecurities.

      Think of him telling Sansa about The Hound’s scars back in season 1 and entrusting her to keep his confidence.

      Think back to the scene at the docks in King’s Landing, where he has her begging him to tell her what to do to escape her nightmare situation, while painting her as the untrustworthy one.

      Think of the scene in the Eyrie, where he seems to open his heart to her, telling her how much he loved her mother and how everything he’s done has been to avenge those he loves, including Sansa. Then moves in for the kiss. *yuck*

      Think of the scene at Moat Cailin, where he plays on her survivor’s guilt over the deaths of her family to convince her to go along with his plan to effectively pimp her out.

      His treatment of her is all textbook grooming. Befriending her when she’s vulnerable, lowering her defences (“call me Petyr”), offering her her heart’s desires, playing on her insecurities…

      Varys honestly convinced Tyrion to reluctantly join him on his journey to Meereen.

      Littlefinger? He’s been brainwashing Sansa since season 1.

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    36. Pigeon: Ooh but I don’t WANT Littlefinger dead. Heck, if anyone has earned/played/manipulated their way to the stupid uncomfortable porcupine seat, it’s him.

      Actually, what I don’t want is for him to die in a stupid fashion. There could be some wonderfully fantastic ways to go (personally, I think it’d be great if he fell off a laddahhhh). But for the love of all that is unpredictable, I don’t want him to go because Sansa tells someone to kill him. Lame-o. I know she can’t even hold on to a corkscrew to save her life, but if he’s another passive-aggressive Ramsay type of death, blah!!!

      I still can’t believe no one has stepped on a nail and died of tetanus.

      Top 3 LF deaths

      3. Takes Iron throne, then gets eaten off of it by Drogon
      2. Trips and falls through Moon Door
      1. All past crimes revealed via cathartic public trial, followed by ritual beheading

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    37. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
      Think of the time Sansa decided to drop Littlefinger’s offer to take her out of King’s Landing because she felt the Tyrells were a far better option at the time.

      Think of the scene on the boat (just after the line on the necessity to confuse one’s foes) when Sansa answers : “I don’t believe you”. And she was right. He did not organise the Purple Wedding to “confuse” the Lannisters. He did so to strenghten his alliance with Olenna, put Tywin in difficulty as revenge for killing Catelyn and push the kingdom further down into chaos.

      Think of the time Sansa decided to lie to preserve Baelish’s neck because, out of two devils presented to her, she quite rationally and selfishly bet on the one she knew over the one she didn’t (“What would they have done with me ? / I don’t know / Neither do I”).

      I am not in any way, shape or form denying that there is an element of manipulation in the Baelish / Sansa relationship. Seven hells, most of the time, he does not even try to hide it ! But if it were “grooming” or “brainwashing”, it would not fail that often nor would Sansa even be aware of it.

      The elder Stark daughter is damaged, of that there is no question, and Littlefinger knows what aspects of her personality to appeal to to get her to listen (not obey). And this is precisely why I mentioned the example of Varys / Tyrion.

      Tyrion, for all his wit, is no less damaged than Sansa. He is almost maniacal in his pursuit of acceptance and recognition; he is a sucker for beautiful and tragic women; he has quite a “thing” for sob stories (bastards, cripples and broken things) and he has a huge ego when it comes to his intellectual / political abilities.
      And here comes Varys… Telling him that there is an important job waiting for him (acceptance / recognition), serving Daenerys (beautiful, tragic woman), to help defend the slaves-turned-citizens of Meereen (sob story) and that he would be great at it (ego). Full house !

      Varys knows exactly what aspects of Tyrion’s personality to appeal to to get him to listen (not obey).

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    38. Firannion,

      I’m a big fan of Debra Winger, and never get tired of watching her, especially in the last few minutes of “An Officer and a Gentleman.” [“Way to go, Paula !”]

      You can imagine my distress when I went to YouTube to watch the trailer for her new movie “The Lovers”… only to have WeenieFinger’s mug ruin the experience.
      I guess I just don’t like Aidan Gillen’s portrayal of LF on GoT. I figure a character like LF who succeeds through guile and deception should be charming and charismatic. Instead, I just want to punch him. I’m surprised someone on the show hasn’t already smashed his face in and chopped his head off.

      Redundant rant over.

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    39. Alba Stark,

      Well, some known character has to die and be reanimated as a wight. I want it to be LF so I can watch him get killed twice. And then set on fire.
      (Oh god. I’d better stop here.)

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    40. ACME,

      It’s a process. Her lying for him at the Eyrie and agreeing to be sold to the Boltons is all the result of her gradual brainwashing.

      The fact that in the past she has made decisions contrary to those he was encouraging, or acknowledged his self-interest, does not negate the reality of what he’s doing to her.

      You think victims of grooming never express any reluctance? Never question their abusers’ motives?

      Littlefinger’s been working on Sansa for years. If his influence over her was merely down to him being a persuasive character then why has he been befriending and manipulating her for years? Surely such a convincing character could have simply presented her with a rational argument at any time and convinced her to agree with it?

      As for her decision to lie for him at the Eyrie being rational and selfish; is siding with a murderer over authority ever rational? Victims of psychological and emotional abuse often side with their abuser over the authorities, over family, over friends, and rationalize it to themselves.

      Tyrion might be a damaged character too. But Varys’ manipulation of him is nowhere near as subtle or malevolent as Littlefinger’s towards Sansa.

      You’re putting words into Varys’ mouth. All he does is tell Tyrion of Daenery’s existence and of her potential to be a good ruler, massage Tyrion’s ego a bit and convince him to at least come and meet her. He doesn’t say anything about her beauty, or the slaves, or that he’s guaranteed a place by her side.

      He gives him an ultimatum: move on with your life or give up on yourself. It may be manipulative, but it’s nowhere near the same level as what Littlefinger’s been doing to Sansa for years.

      It’s a real stretch to even begin to compare the two situations.

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    41. Ten Bears,

      And made sure she knew that she would be under suspicion, and tries to convince her that he did it for her, for her mother, for love. Hmm…

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    42. ygritte,

      What I meant was, her face says a lot, I feel like something important is being said/ happening.

      Vs Arya’s to me, looks like shes dazed into space lol

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    43. ygritte: it all depends on covfefe.

      Fifty points to House Ygritte for being the first (I think) to bring covfefe to the table (er, Wall)!

      What a fine gift the Appalling Orange One has inadvertently given us: a word that means whatever the social mediaverse in its diverse wisdom decides it will mean. It may take quite a while to come to some consensus, but getting there will be a fun process, and we need all the fun we can scrounge up in these troubled times.

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    44. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: If his influence over her was merely down to him being a persuasive character then why has he been befriending and manipulating her for years?

      Because he sees in her both the daughter he never had with the woman he loved (or, at least, was obsessed with) and, at times, another incarnation of said woman. He does not just want her to cooperate and go along with his plans; he wants her to like him.
      Healthy ? Nope.
      Brainwashing ? Neither.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      As for her decision to lie for him at the Eyrie being rational and selfish; is siding with a murderer over authority ever rational? Victims of psychological and emotional abuse often side with their abuser over the authorities, over family, over friends, and rationalize it to themselves.

      Yours is a valid interpretation, that is most certain.

      Another valid (I believe) interpretation would be that Sansa is not particularly saddened by the demise of an unhinged aunt who tried to kill her and prefers to side with the man who got rid of her (and whom she knows) over the lords and ladies of the Vale (whom she does not know) who try to punish the person who killed her.
      Better the devil you know, especially when he just disposed of someone who wanted to murder you.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      You’re putting words into Varys’ mouth. All he does is tell Tyrion of Daenery’s existence and of her potential to be a good ruler, massage Tyrion’s ego a bit and convince him to at least come and meet her. He doesn’t say anything about her beauty, or the slaves, or that he’s guaranteed a place by her side.

      To be fair, the Targaryens are famous for three things : their dragons, their “50/50” chances of madness and their beauty. A Targaryen woman is, by definition, a beautiful woman. As for the tragedy, Tyrion knows what happened to her family…
      The slaves should also be a known entity. By the time Tyrion and Varys had that conversation, Daenerys had been going from slave city to slave city, taking over and freeing the people for four years. I find it somewhat difficult to believe that no word of that came to Westeros.
      As for the “job offer”, so to speak, I doubt the implication of Varys’s argumentation was simply for Tyrion to visit Meereen and meet Daenerys for a lovely little chat. ^^ Especially considering the history between their respective families. So, while Varys did not guarantee a position for Tyrion (he couldn’t have), he did heavily suggest that was what the younger Lannister could obtain, were he to head further east.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      It’s a real stretch to even begin to compare the two situations.

      I cannot say I share that conclusion.

      The two characters of Varys and Littlefinger are built as two sides of a same coin and share enough characteristics to assume that their fates and purposes are, to an extent, mirror images of each other :
      – both “foreign” : Varys is from Myr; Baelish is of Bravoosi origin;
      – both powerful “self-made men” of low-ish extraction in a world where birth is supposed to be the one, defining factor;
      – both linked to prostitution : Varys was a child prostitute; Baelish is a pimp;
      – both obsessed with information (spies everywhere ^^);
      – both caused a war : by warning the Mad King against his eldest son, Varys prevented Rhaegar from taking over and ensured that a crazed Aerys would remain on the throne, leading to Robert’s Rebellion; by supervising Jon Arryn’s death and lying about the culprits, Littlefinger brought about the War of the Five Kings.

      Furthermore, in the books, neither is a POV character so whatever little we know about them comes primarily from two other narrators, namely Tyrion for Varys and Sansa for Baelish. Obviously, the Spider and the Brothel Keep both pop up in other POV characters’ chapters on occasion but the prime source of information about them is the other half of their “duo”.
      Narratively speaking, Tyrion and Sansa end up occupying the same place : they witness and participate in the plans devised by their respective “teammate” but do not have access to the full picture. They both remain overall puzzled as to what the end game is (though I have to admit that Tyrion’s confusion is more perceptible in the books).

        Quote  Reply

    45. ACME:
      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I just want to thank you two for providing a lively, very cogently argued discussion of a subject that can be triggering without ever going into attack mode. Excellent points made on both sides. And when all is said and done, however passionate we feel about our position, we can all still be friends. This is the sort of chat that keeps me coming back to WotW.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      If his influence over her was merely down to him being a persuasive character then why has he been befriending and manipulating her for years? Surely such a convincing character could have simply presented her with a rational argument at any time and convinced her to agree with it?

      Because he sees in her both the daughter he never had with the woman he loved (or, at least, was obsessed with) and, at times, another incarnation of said woman. He does not just want her to cooperate and go along with his plans; he wants her to like him.
      Healthy ? Not entirely, no (to be euphemistic)
      Brainwashing ? I do not think so either.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: As for her decision to lie for him at the Eyrie being rational and selfish; is siding with a murderer over authority ever rational? Victims of psychological and emotional abuse often side with their abuser over the authorities, over family, over friends, and rationalize it to themselves.

      Yours is a perfectly valid interpretation, that is most certain.

      Another valid (I believe) interpretation would be that Sansa is not particularly saddened by the demise of an unhinged relative she had no emotional connection to and who tried to kill her. So she prefers to side with the man who got rid of her over the lords and ladies of the Vale who try to punish the person who killed her.
      Better the devil you know, especially when he just disposed of someone who wanted to murder you.

      I do not believe the look Sansa sent Littlefinger after her false testimony was one of submission or fear. Nor do I believe she was seeking his approval.
      In my opinion, it was a look that said “I just served you the Vale on a platter but I can take it back”, also known as the “how do you like ’em apples ?” look. 🙂
      But it is of course highly subjective.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      You’re putting words into Varys’ mouth. (…) He doesn’t say anything about her beauty, or the slaves, or that he’s guaranteed a place by her side.

      To be fair, the Targaryens are famous for three things : their dragons, their “50/50” chances of madness and their beauty. A Targaryen woman is, by definition, a beautiful woman. As for the tragedy, Tyrion knows what happened to her family…

      The slaves should also be a known entity. By the time Tyrion and Varys had that conversation, Daenerys had been going from slave city to slave city, taking over and freeing the people for four years. I find it somewhat difficult to believe that no word of that came to Westeros.

      As for the “job offer”, so to speak, I doubt the implication of Varys’s argumentation was simply for Tyrion to visit Meereen and meet Daenerys for a lovely little chat. ^^ Especially considering the history between their respective families. So, while Varys did not guarantee a position for Tyrion (he couldn’t have), he did heavily suggest that was what the younger Lannister could obtain, were he to head further east.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Firannion,
      Lovely of you to say. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man has always been a delight to debate with, so is pretty much everyone around here 😉

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      It’s a real stretch to even begin to compare the two situations.

      Fairly unsurprisingly, I cannot say I share that conclusion. ^^

      The two characters of Varys and Littlefinger are built as two sides of a same coin and share enough characteristics to assume that their fates and purposes are, to an extent, mirror images of each other :
      – both “foreign” : Varys is from Myr; Baelish is of Bravoosi origin;
      – both powerful “self-made men” of low-ish extraction in a world where birth is supposed to be the one, defining factor;
      – both linked to prostitution : Varys was a child prostitute; Baelish is a pimp;
      – both obsessed with information (spies everywhere ^^);
      – both engineered the conditions for a war : by warning the Mad King against his eldest son, Varys prevented Rhaegar from taking over and ensured that a crazed Aerys would remain on the throne, setting up the stage for Robert’s Rebellion; by supervising Jon Arryn’s death and lying about the culprits, Littlefinger laid down the foundation for the War of the Five Kings.

      Furthermore, in the books, neither is a POV character so whatever little we know about them comes primarily from two other narrators, namely Tyrion for Varys and Sansa for Baelish. Obviously, the Spider and the Brothel Keep both pop up in other POV characters’ chapters on occasion but the prime source of information about them is the other half of their “duo”.
      Narratively speaking, Tyrion and Sansa end up occupying the same place : they witness and participate in the plans devised by their respective “teammate” but do not have access to the full picture. They both remain overall puzzled as to what the end game is (though I have to admit that Tyrion’s confusion is more perceptible in the books).

        Quote  Reply

    48. Ten Bears:
      Alba Stark,

      Well, some known character has to die and be reanimated as a wight. I want it to be LF so I can watch him get killed twice. And then set on fire.
      (Oh god. I’d better stop here.)

      Can’t say that watching LF be killed multiple times would be a struggle. I do hope his time is up in season seven – with the switch in focus from The Game of Thrones to The Great War, LF death could have some sort of symbolic purpose. Here’s hoping the BwB reaches Winterfell soon, and the Hound can tell Sansa what he knows of the day her father was arrested. She’s given LF a pass on his involvement in the deaths of Joffrey on Lysa, but she won’t give him one on her father.

        Quote  Reply

    49. I’m sure most of what I will say has been covered, and probably better than I could say it, but here’s my two cents:

      I don’t think Sansa is being brainwashed by Baelish, though I’m not sure the distinction really matters at this point in the game. To me, brainwashing is forced, something like what happened to Alex in ‘A Clockwork Orange’ (Beethoven’s 9th anyone?).

      No one is forcing Sansa to follow or listen to Baelish. She is choosing to do so on her own. However, I will concede that she was following Baelish because she really didn’t have a better option. Anyone who is as young as Sansa is really needs a mentor or some type of father/mother figure to help guide her and provide her with the wisdom she needs to be able to survive in such a world until reaching adulthood. She was deprived of that once she was separated from her family.

      Sansa chose to lie for Baelish at the Eyrie because if she didn’t, Baelish would’ve said that Sansa knew about the crime the whole time or something like that and who knows what would happen to Sansa at that point. Baelish wouldve taken her down with him. Where would she go? Who could she trust? Would she be imprisoned too? She helped Baelish to save her own ass, not because of some kind of Stockholm syndrome or anything to that effect.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Jon Snowed:
      Always glad to get new info but sadly (for me) Dany and Sansa are two of my least favourite characters so I don’t really care about these pics. Arya on the other hand is one of my favourites so there is some positive for me:) I’m assuming from this pic she could be at the Inn perhaps with Ed Sheeren and Hot Pie?

      I’m the opposite – I don’t like Arya because I don’t like the actress but I like Dany and Sansa. I still like LF and will be sad if he dies.

        Quote  Reply

    51. ACME:
      Because he sees in her both the daughter he never had with the woman he loved (or, at least, was obsessed with) and, at times, another incarnation of said woman. He does not just want her to cooperate and go along with his plans; he wants her to like him.
      Healthy ? Nope.
      Brainwashing ? Neither.

      Sure, he wants her to like and trust him. And he probably lusts after her too. But his underlying intent in developing a relationship with her is to further his ambitions.

      We know that he has been masterminding chaos to further his quest for power and is willing to manipulate, betray and cozy up to anybody that will serve his aims.

      He convinced Lysa Arryn that he loved her. He has Robin Arryn running round at his beck and call, calling him Uncle Petyr and being presented with gifts to win his trust and favour,

      If Sansa served no role in his ambitions then he would most likely consider her as dispensable as Ros.

      ACME:
      Another valid (I believe) interpretation would be that Sansa is not particularly saddened by the demise of an unhinged aunt who tried to kill her and prefers to side with the man who got rid of her (and whom she knows) over the lords and ladies of the Vale (whom she does not know) who try to punish the person who killed her.
      Better the devil you know, especially when he just disposed of someone who wanted to murder you.

      There is of course logic to Sansa’s behaviour. Which is what makes his manipulation of her so malevolent. He has lulled her into a state of trust and dependency that he clearly does not deserve.

      He killed Lysa right in front of her because it was another opportunity to strengthen her dependency on him. He had once again “saved” her from a situation of his making. She owed him once again.

      And this time he puts himself at her mercy. By placing his fate in her hands he creates the illusion of co-dependency, which swiftly disappears once she has given up her opportunity to condemn him.

      ACME:
      To be fair, the Targaryens are famous for three things : their dragons, their “50/50” chances of madness and their beauty. A Targaryen woman is, by definition, a beautiful woman. As for the tragedy, Tyrion knows what happened to her family…
      The slaves should also be a known entity. By the time Tyrion and Varys had that conversation, Daenerys had been going from slave city to slave city, taking over and freeing the people for four years. I find it somewhat difficult to believe that no word of that came to Westeros.
      As for the “job offer”, so to speak, I doubt the implication of Varys’s argumentation was simply for Tyrion to visit Meereen and meet Daenerys for a lovely little chat. ^^ Especially considering the history between their respective families. So, while Varys did not guarantee a position for Tyrion (he couldn’t have), he did heavily suggest that was what the younger Lannister could obtain, were he to head further east.

      These are all fair points. Tyrion may well have heard of Daenerys’ beauty and so on.

      But these are assumptions we have to make about Tyrion’s considerations. We don’t see Varys use them to explicitly manipulate him.

      Whereas we clearly see Littlefinger using things such as the deaths of Sansa’s family, his “love” for her and her mother, revenge, her “involvement” in Joffrey’s death, entrusting her with secrets and so on to manipulate Sansa.

      We never have to assume which buttons Littlefinger is pressing or how he is seeking to manipulate her. Which is why I feel far more confident in condemning Littlefinger’s behaviour towards Sansa than Varys’ towards Tyrion.

      ACME:
      The two characters of Varys and Littlefinger are built as two sides of a same coin and share enough characteristics to assume that their fates and purposes are, to an extent, mirror images of each other…

      Narratively speaking, Tyrion and Sansa end up occupying the same place : they witness and participate in the plans devised by their respective “teammate” but do not have access to the full picture. They both remain overall puzzled as to what the end game is (though I have to admit that Tyrion’s confusion is more perceptible in the books).

      I think the fact that Varys and Littlefinger are considered two sides of the same coin is reflected in the fact that Varys’ broader intentions appear to be selfless and genuine.

      His manipulation of people appears to be done in order to achieve what he considers best for the realm and its people.

      Whereas Littlefinger’s intentions are more openly selfish and manipulative. He considers people investments to further his own aims.

      Varys was honest with Tyrion about Daenerys because he believes that good can come from it. Varys lays his cards on the table and asks and trusts Tyrion to choose whether he wants to be involved.

      Whereas Littlefinger is only honest about his plans and intentions when it serves to manipulate someone to his advantage.

      Littlefinger and Sansa’s relationship always has an information deficit, which leaves Sansa at a disadvantage; dependent and open to manipulation. “What do you want?”, “Where are you taking me?” “Who was that raven from?”. It’s common in controlling, manipulative relationships.

      I think Varys’ and Littlefinger’s approaches are deliberately contradictory.

      ACME:
      Firannion,
      Lovely of you to say. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man has always been a delight to debate with, so is pretty much everyone around here 😉

      Thank you. It’s always great to have a polite and informative debate on this site, even when you don’t agree on everything.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Firannion,

      Must we bring US politics into Westeros? I read stuff here to get away from that garbage. No one wants to hear about your politics here…Id hope.

      Why do the women have to “dress tough” to be seem as strong? Some strong women in normal clothing would make more sense to me.

        Quote  Reply

    53. ACME:
      Because he sees in her both the daughter he never had with the woman he loved (or, at least, was obsessed with) and, at times, another incarnation of said woman. He does not just want her to cooperate and go along with his plans; he wants her to like him.
      Healthy ? Nope.
      Brainwashing ? Neither.

      Sure, he wants her to like and trust him. And he probably lusts after her too. But his underlying intent in developing a relationship with her is to further his ambitions.

      We know that he has been masterminding chaos to further his quest for power and is willing to manipulate, betray and cozy up to anybody that will serve his aims.

      He convinced Lysa Arryn that he loved her. He has Robin Arryn running round at his beck and call, calling him Uncle Petyr and being presented with gifts to win his trust and favour,

      If Sansa served no role in his ambitions then he would most likely consider her as dispensable as Ros.

      ACME:
      Another valid (I believe) interpretation would be that Sansa is not particularly saddened by the demise of an unhinged aunt who tried to kill her and prefers to side with the man who got rid of her (and whom she knows) over the lords and ladies of the Vale (whom she does not know) who try to punish the person who killed her.
      Better the devil you know, especially when he just disposed of someone who wanted to murder you.

      There is of course logic to Sansa’s behaviour. Which is what makes his manipulation of her so malevolent. He has lulled her into a state of trust and dependency that he clearly does not deserve.

      He killed Lysa right in front of her because it was another opportunity to strengthen her dependency on him. He had once again “saved” her from a situation of his making. She owed him once again.

      And this time he puts himself at her mercy. By placing his fate in her hands he creates the illusion of co-dependency, which swiftly disappears once she has given up her opportunity to condemn him.

        Quote  Reply

    54. ACME:
      To be fair, the Targaryens are famous for three things : their dragons, their “50/50” chances of madness and their beauty. A Targaryen woman is, by definition, a beautiful woman. As for the tragedy, Tyrion knows what happened to her family…
      The slaves should also be a known entity. By the time Tyrion and Varys had that conversation, Daenerys had been going from slave city to slave city, taking over and freeing the people for four years. I find it somewhat difficult to believe that no word of that came to Westeros.
      As for the “job offer”, so to speak, I doubt the implication of Varys’s argumentation was simply for Tyrion to visit Meereen and meet Daenerys for a lovely little chat. ^^ Especially considering the history between their respective families. So, while Varys did not guarantee a position for Tyrion (he couldn’t have), he did heavily suggest that was what the younger Lannister could obtain, were he to head further east.

      These are all fair points. Tyrion may well have heard of Daenerys’ beauty and so on.

      But these are assumptions we have to make about Tyrion’s considerations. We don’t see Varys use them to explicitly manipulate him.

      Whereas we clearly see Littlefinger using things such as the deaths of Sansa’s family, his “love” for her and her mother, revenge, her “involvement” in Joffrey’s death, entrusting her with secrets and so on to manipulate Sansa.

      We never have to assume which buttons Littlefinger is pressing or how he is seeking to manipulate her. Which is why I feel far more confident in condemning Littlefinger’s behaviour towards Sansa than Varys’ towards Tyrion.

      ACME:
      The two characters of Varys and Littlefinger are built as two sides of a same coin and share enough characteristics to assume that their fates and purposes are, to an extent, mirror images of each other…

      Narratively speaking, Tyrion and Sansa end up occupying the same place : they witness and participate in the plans devised by their respective “teammate” but do not have access to the full picture. They both remain overall puzzled as to what the end game is (though I have to admit that Tyrion’s confusion is more perceptible in the books).

      I think the fact that Varys and Littlefinger are considered two sides of the same coin is reflected in the fact that Varys’ broader intentions appear to be selfless and genuine.

      His manipulation of people appears to be done in order to achieve what he considers best for the realm and its people.

      Whereas Littlefinger’s intentions are more openly selfish and manipulative. He considers people investments to further his own aims.

      Varys was honest with Tyrion about Daenerys because he believes that good can come from it. Varys lays his cards on the table and asks and trusts Tyrion to choose whether he wants to be involved.

      Whereas Littlefinger is only honest about his plans and intentions when it serves to manipulate someone to his advantage.

      Littlefinger and Sansa’s relationship always has an information deficit, which leaves Sansa at a disadvantage; dependent and open to manipulation. “What do you want?”, “Where are you taking me?” “Who was that raven from?”. It’s common in controlling, manipulative relationships.

      I think Varys’ and Littlefinger’s approaches are deliberately contradictory.

        Quote  Reply

    55. ACME:
      To be fair, the Targaryens are famous for three things : their dragons, their “50/50” chances of madness and their beauty. A Targaryen woman is, by definition, a beautiful woman. As for the tragedy, Tyrion knows what happened to her family…
      The slaves should also be a known entity. By the time Tyrion and Varys had that conversation, Daenerys had been going from slave city to slave city, taking over and freeing the people for four years. I find it somewhat difficult to believe that no word of that came to Westeros.
      As for the “job offer”, so to speak, I doubt the implication of Varys’s argumentation was simply for Tyrion to visit Meereen and meet Daenerys for a lovely little chat. ^^ Especially considering the history between their respective families. So, while Varys did not guarantee a position for Tyrion (he couldn’t have), he did heavily suggest that was what the younger Lannister could obtain, were he to head further east.

      These are all fair points. Tyrion may well have heard of Daenerys’ beauty and so on.

      But these are assumptions we have to make about Tyrion’s considerations. We don’t see Varys use them to explicitly manipulate him.

      Whereas we clearly see Littlefinger using things such as the deaths of Sansa’s family, his “love” for her and her mother, revenge, her “involvement” in Joffrey’s death, entrusting her with secrets and so on to manipulate Sansa.

      We never have to assume which buttons Littlefinger is pressing or how he is seeking to manipulate her. Which is why I feel far more confident in condemning Littlefinger’s behaviour towards Sansa than Varys’ towards Tyrion.

        Quote  Reply

    56. ACME:
      The two characters of Varys and Littlefinger are built as two sides of a same coin and share enough characteristics to assume that their fates and purposes are, to an extent, mirror images of each other…

      Narratively speaking, Tyrion and Sansa end up occupying the same place : they witness and participate in the plans devised by their respective “teammate” but do not have access to the full picture. They both remain overall puzzled as to what the end game is (though I have to admit that Tyrion’s confusion is more perceptible in the books).

      I think the fact that Varys and Littlefinger are considered two sides of the same coin is reflected in the fact that Varys’ broader intentions appear to be selfless and genuine.

      His manipulation of people appears to be done in order to achieve what he considers best for the realm and its people.

      Whereas Littlefinger’s intentions are more openly selfish and manipulative. He considers people investments to further his own aims.

      Varys was honest with Tyrion about Daenerys because he believes that good can come from it. Varys lays his cards on the table and asks and trusts Tyrion to choose whether he wants to be involved.

      Whereas Littlefinger is only honest about his plans and intentions when it serves to manipulate someone to his advantage.

      Littlefinger and Sansa’s relationship always has an information deficit, which leaves Sansa at a disadvantage; dependent and open to manipulation. “What do you want?”, “Where are you taking me?” “Who was that raven from?”. It’s common in controlling, manipulative relationships.

      I think Varys’ and Littlefinger’s approaches are deliberately contradictory.

        Quote  Reply

    57. ACME:
      Firannion,
      Lovely of you to say. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man has always been a delight to debate with, so is pretty much everyone around here 😉

      Thank you. It’s always great to have a polite and informative debate on this site, even when you don’t agree on everything.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      If Sansa served no role in his ambitions then he would most likely consider her as dispensable as Ros.

      Oh, of that there is no doubt !

      Littlefinger is a fundamentally utilitarian character. He has a goal and he pursues it, regardless of who stands in his way. But he does have feelings. If anything, his emotions fuel his endless ambition : sentiments of revenge, injustice, obsession, even love (in his own warped way). Baelish has quite a romantic vision of himself, I believe.

      And his emotions can short-circuit his frighteningly rational brain, at times. The kiss at the Eyrie was clearly a “moment”, something he did not plan for and got carried away by.
      There is a tiny wee dark heart in Littlefinger’s rotten chest 😛

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      He killed Lysa right in front of her because it was another opportunity to strengthen her dependency on him. He had once again “saved” her from a situation of his making.
      (…)
      And this time he puts himself at her mercy. By placing his fate in her hands he creates the illusion of co-dependency, which swiftly disappears once she has given up her opportunity to condemn him.

      I may be wrong but I do not think Littlefinger had planned Lysa’s death; at the very least, he had not prepared for it to happen in that manner. It seemed to be a spur-of-the-moment decision. Lysa was growing increasingly irrational and dangerous; she would babble loudly about their schemes; she threatened Sansa; etc. So Baelish seized the opportunity that was presented to him (as he usually does) and got rid of her.

      He did not intend for Sansa to testify on his behalf, I believe. His reaction at the mere mention of her being brought in as a witness was quite telling in that regard. He tried to dissuade Lord Royce from calling her in, arguing his “niece” was not quite “all there”.
      I doubt he willingly placed himself at her mercy (in fact, in the books, he didn’t) and was quite (pleasantly) astonished by the fact that she not only saved in neck but also that she did it in such an astute way that it gained him the trust of the Vale’s nobility.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      But these are assumptions we have to make about Tyrion’s considerations. We don’t see Varys use them to explicitly manipulate him.

      That is very true, you’re right.

      However, we do see Varys testify against Tyrion. Now, we know why Shae testified against him (revenge) and why Pycell did the same (he was a sycophant who did everything Tywin told him to). But Varys ? What was his incentive for adding to Tyrion’s misery and helping ensure a guilty verdict ?

      My guess, and it is only a guess, is that he had intended to direct Tyrion towards Daenerys for a long time, knowing her life story, trajectory and situation would be like catnip to the younger Lannister. But, he needed to cut any ties Tyrion might have had to Westeros so that Essos would become his only viable option.

      So testify against Tyrion, make sure he is found guilty and all his bridges there are well and thoroughly burnt, free him from the cells (Varys knows the Red Keep’s prison fairly well) and ship him to Essos to meet the Mother of Dragons.
      It may be convoluted but it is the only explanation I can think of for Varys’s unwarranted testimony.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: I think the fact that Varys and Littlefinger are considered two sides of the same coin is reflected in the fact that Varys’ broader intentions appear to be selfless and genuine.
      (…)
      His manipulation of people appears to be done in order to achieve what he considers best for the realm and its people.

      Ah, the realm ! But what is the realm ? “A story we agree to tell each other over and over until we forget that it’s a lie” ^^

      I may be horribly cynical but I am not convinced by Varys’s “realm” justification. While I do understand that different people do have dissimilar and contradictory takes on what constitutes “the good of the realm”, I cannot for the life of me believe a man as intelligent and seemingly sane as Varys would genuinely think that unleashing tens of thousands of Dothraki screamers onto an unsuspecting population would be good for the realm.
      We also have to keep on mind that he planned for such an invasion all the way back in season 1 ! While we can imagine that under Daenerys’s leadership, the rules of Dothraki wartime behaviour may have been “humanised”, back then the deadly riders were still violent pillagers who gleefully raped and murdered the people they conquered.
      Faced with such brutal reality, the “good of the realm” argument seems somewhat disingenuous at best.

      I do agree with you though that Varys does not act for himself. He clearly does not intend to seize the throne and rule as Varys of House MagnificentMuuMuu First of His Name. But what is real intentions and genuine end game are… That, I believe, is still very much up in the air for anyone, including Tyrion.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Thank you. It’s always great to have a polite and informative debate on this site, even when you don’t agree on everything.

      The pleasure is very much mutual 😉

        Quote  Reply

    60. Lady Lyanna Mormontfortheironthrone!: I don’t like Arya because I don’t like the actress

      Wow, talk about making a statement that alienates oneself. There aren’t very many that are going to join you in that room.

      I have to say it’s also a bit baffling that you like Lyanna Mormont and/or Bella Ramsey so much that you use that name… hmm

        Quote  Reply

    61. Mel,

      Like Vally said earlier in the thread, they really are going for a Dominatrix look with Sansa this season. I can’t help but wonder if she’s got a whip hidden away in her outfit somewhere.

      I can imagine a scene where she has Littlefinger bent over a table getting whipped in the behind with him shouting “thank you Sansa may I have another!?”

        Quote  Reply

    62. Mel:
      https://ph.news.yahoo.com/sophie-turner-sansa-become-ruthless-killer-evil-lady-012614381.html

      Sophie also did a interview in which she compares Sansa to Cersei, and says they have similar motivations and she believes Sansa would be capable of doing the things Cersei has done.
      Of course I don’t know if Sophie means this or if she is just trolling us. It’s hard to tell with her

      Not sure if it was in this thread or another, but I have posted in the last couple of days that it is interesting to compare the Sansa of 209 (who she is shocked that Cersei doesn’t intend to be taken alive by Stannis) with the Sansa of 609 (who explicitly tells Jon that should Ramsay win, she won’t be taken alive).

        Quote  Reply

    63. Mel,
      Thank you for the find !

      Would it that surprising for Sansa to have some Cersei in her ? And, above all, would it be such a bad thing for Sansa to become a bit more like Season 6 Cersei ?

      Cersei, in her own disturbed and drunken way, tried to serve as a surrogate mother for Sansa when she lived in the Red Keep. Since she did not like the Stark girl that much at all, it is true that the “motherly wisdom” she imparted was mostly tainted with extreme bitterness. However, the actual content of what she told Sansa was sadly accurate :
      – women do not really matter in Westeros;
      – most husbands do not care for their wives’ mind and feelings;
      – female prisoners get raped;
      – there is power in being a woman but it is not the kind of power one gets a medal for.
      Tragic reality check, but reality check nonetheless.

      Warning : I am about to defend Cersei’s actions in the season finale. I am making it my specialty to defend Sansa, Littlefinger and Cersei. Why ? Because I really want to be popular ! 😀

      When Cersei blew up the Sept, our immediate reaction was, of course, “OK ! She has officially turned into the Mad King. All hail Queen Crazy Lady”. However, what Cersei did had little to nothing in common with what Aerys intended to do.

      Aerys wanted to blow up the whole of King’s Landing so that the intensity of the flames would turn him into a dragon. In other words, he was willing to sacrifice the lives of thousands of innocents on the off-chance he might change species… Never was a monarch more aptly nicknamed.
      Cersei’s attack, conversely, was very targeted. She blew up the Sept, and only the Sept, because it was full of people who actually wanted to judge, condemn and execute her. She did not kill innocent people who happened to live in King’s Landing (well, except for Sir Collateral Damage who got smashed by the bell); she got rid of her enemies.

      Her actions and motives are not parallel to the Mad King’s, I believe. They are similar to Tywin “Castamere / Red Wedding” Lannister’s.

      Medieval “politics” is much closer to gang interactions than its modern counterpart. Families and Houses are mobs, they fight over territories, there are rules of allegiance and pledges of fealty. And it so happens that one of the two basic principles of gang warfare is escalation as means of intimidation : be willing to do what the other guy won’t.

      That is what Tywin did with Castamere and the Red Wedding. He annihilatde his enemy in a spectacular fashion (drowning all the Reynes at Castamere, slaughtering all the Starks and Tullys at the Twins) to send everyone else a message. As he said to Tyrion after his son told him Northerners would never forget the Red Wedding : “Good. Let them remember what happens when they march on the south”
      Escalation. Intimidation.

      It is the counterpoint to “feeding the dogs”. When people serve you well, always positively reinforce them; when they don’t, punish them severely so they remember it.
      Good old carrot and stick.

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    64. ACME:
      Mel,

      Cersei, in her own disturbed and drunken way, tried to serve as a surrogate mother for Sansa when she lived in the Red Keep. Since she did not like the Stark girl that much at all, it is true that the “motherly wisdom” she imparted was mostly tainted with extreme bitterness. However, the actual content of what she told Sansa was sadly accurate :
      – women do not really matter in Westeros;
      – most husbands do not care for their wives’ mind and feelings;
      – female prisoners get raped;
      – there is power in being a woman but it is not the kind of power one gets a medal for.
      Tragic reality check, but reality check nonetheless.

      We should also remember that prior to travelling to King’s Landing, Sansa’s own experience of how a high-born woman is treated by her husband was in viewing Ned and Catelyn. Yes, Sansa grew up seeing – as her mother had instructed – Jon as an affront to Catelyn and her position in Winterfell, but that blip in Ned’s honor aside, Sansa saw two people who cared deeply for each other and treated one another with respect.

      Ned paid attention to Catelyn’s needs, even building her a sept, and took heed of her counsel. Jon seems to have been the sole bone of contention between the two of them. There was no violence between them, no threats or living of almost separate lives – this was a marriage that, regardless of how it had begun, had grown into one of deep love and affection. Given this, Sansa grew up in an environment that while not unique, was most certainly sheltered and it gave her a false perception of the married life a high-born Westerosi woman experienced.

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    65. For me, Sansa is broken. Psychologically and physically; she’s damaged. Look at her in season 6, she feels nothing, she is cold, detached, dominated by her desire for vengeance. Too many people forget and ignore the behavior of a person used and abused. If Sansa has so many haters, it’s because people don’t want to think about what she’s been through. For them; a woman raped is weak. The victims are hated and when they decide to fight in their own way, they can’t stand it.

      Sansa is hated because she remained a woman and doesn’t fight like Arya or Brienne. And people don’t like femininity, it’s like that. Characters such as Arya fascinate because they are out of the ordinary. Sansa has the behavior of a woman like you and me.

      Sansa’s behavior is no coincidence. Ramsay dead, she’s not saved psychologically. She no longer trusts anyone and stays with the only person she thinks deserves: Littlefinger. I think that Sansa hates herself and doesn’t want to be surrounded by people who actually love her. She knows LF is a pervert who just wants power. She punishes herself by staying at his side and letting his handle her. Becoming queen is a way for her to regain control of her life (she has always been manipulated, used, abused).
      No one, not even Arya, could understand. It’s a problem that Sansa has with herself and that’s probably what will cause her death later.

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