New Season 6 Director Gives Shooting Schedule Hints

jack-bender

One of the new Season 6 directors is in Game of Thrones news today.  The Hollywood Reporter has an interview with Jack Bender who will be directing two episodes in the coming season.  According to the director,

He hasn’t received any scripts yet, but he did get an outline for the season while season five was still airing. He says the writers have “about six or seven scripts written” for season six so far.

More after the jump!

Known for his work on The Sopranos and Lost, Bender is an exciting addition to the outstanding list of Directors we have been enjoying for five seasons now. He admits to being mystified by the complicated Game of Thrones shooting schedule.  Apparently, he will be overseas from July until December of this year for the show and his “tour” will overlap with one other director.  I think we can safely assume that shooting could potentially begin as early as July.

239 responses

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    1. Woah! “Lost” is probably my all-time favorite show (yes, the final season disappointed me), with GoT nipping at its heels. Exciting!

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    2. Having a director of a show that ruined itself to some extent in its last season direct some episodes of the penultimate season of another show? Oh oh.

      Now jokes aside, interesting news. I wish him all the luck in his efforts, it certainly isn´t easy to make a directional debut on such a show one season before its end. I´m sure he will prove a great addition to the show.

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    3. Maybe it’s me, but I feel like I’m looking at a picture from the year 2033 and that Kit Harington has really let himself go.

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    4. Greatjon of Slumber,

      Haha, now that you mention it. Give that man a cap and a cigarette and he might really pass for Kit in 30 years.

      Besides that, Jack Bender actually looks astonishingly fit & healthy for his 65 years.

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    5. In other news:

      GRRM has visited Germany (Hamburg) and told the audience “there is this one character where I always knew that he or she will die. From the moment of the characters introduction he/she was doomed. But I didn’t know how. Since yesterday I know how. Maybe it was because of Hamburg, who knows.”

      Before he read an unpublished chapter from TWOW (Arianne I, it was known) he said regarding the chapter and the TV show:
      “Now, of course Winds of Winter is book six in the Songe of Ice and fire, so I hope most of you have read before these five books.
      There will be some squints here and references to what happened in the five books before.
      Also, if there is anyone sitting in the audience who knows the story only because of the HBO show ‘Game of Throne’: You´re going to be really confused!
      Almost none of the characters in the chapter *giggles* exists in Game of Thrones. So, these are all…, well not all, there´s one or two mentioned, but 95% of the characters in this chapter have not made the transition to television, so…
      But as you know the books you may recognise them.

      So:
      Arianne.”

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    6. However you felt about LOST, almost no fans would deny Jack Bender did a fantastic job as the show’s main director, who directed, IIRC, all the season finales and almost all the biggest or most dramatic episodes (he also did some standout work on The Sopranos and Carnivale). He was great at large-scale stuff, making things feel ‘epic’ and also giving smaller character scenes more dramatic punch. A great choice.

      Ideally, next they’ll announce Susannah White (Bleak House, Generation Kill, Jane Eyre ’06)…

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    7. ColdPie,

      Hannibal will almost certainly find another home, though (albeit with a reduced budget, maybe less episodes…and probably on Amazon, sadly)

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    8. ColdPie:
      James Rivers,

      Haha. Still maddening.

      Despite Lost tailing off story wise the last two seasons, I always thought the directing was great.

      Season 5 is probably my favorite LOST season, so…

      And only the flash-sideways stuff isn’t very good on repeated viewings for the final season. The other stuff is pretty solid. People overreacted big time to that final season and finale, mostly because they misunderstood what it meant (including GRRM).

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    9. ColdPie,

      I would not rule out Hannibal being picked up by Amazon, Netlflix or the like for a final season or two. This seems like the type of show they would want, a passionate (albeit somewhat small-ish) fanbase and an engaging serialized story that fits binge watching.

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    10. Greatjon of Slumber,
      Probably not much of a spoiler, but just in case

      Beric did say he came back a changed man each time he was resurrected, so this is obviously a sneak preview shot of Jon’s S6 look after Mel’s done her magic 😉

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    11. John,

      Wow, very interesting. Now I wish I would have driven those six hours to Hamburg and witnessed this revelation. Just one thing I don´t understand (maybe because I am dead-tired already): does he state that Arianne will die or does he say “So: Arianne.” as a transition to read this chapter?

      If it were Arianne, I´m pretty sure he intends to let her drown in the Rhone, then. Hamburg is a beautiful city and the Elbe (don´t know how it´s called in english, sorry) that flows through it may have inspired him to think about the Rhone once again. Would be a very dramatic and somewhat romantic death since Hamburg actually has one big rock on which many ships crashed and sank, supposedly due to seeing a beautiful mermaid (called the Loreley) ontop of it. Sad story, but maybe a fitting end for Arianne Martell…
      Dying in the Rhone and afterwards, when the war of the five kings and the white walkers are long forgotten in westeros, still the sad story of a beautiful woman who drowned in the floods and haunts the place endures. I can´t help but think that this would be a very Martin-esque exit from ASOIAF. But maybe I´m just over-interpreting things and should go to bed…

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    12. John:
      In other news:

      GRRM has visited Germany (Hamburg) and told the audience “there is this one character where I always knew that he or she will die. From the moment of the characters introduction he/she was doomed. But I didn’t know how. Since yesterday I know how. Maybe it was because of Hamburg, who knows.”

      Before he read an unpublished chapter from TWOW (Arianne I, it was known) he said regarding the chapter and the TV show:
      “Now, of course Winds of Winter is book six in the Songe of Ice and fire, so I hope most of you have read before these five books.
      There will be some squints here and references to what happened in the five books before.
      Also, if there is anyone sitting in the audience who knows the story only because of the HBO show ‘Game of Throne’: You´re going to be really confused!
      Almost none of the characters in the chapter *giggles* exists in Game of Thrones. So, these are all…, well not all, there´s one or two mentioned, but 95% of the characters in this chapter have not made the transition to television, so…
      But as you know the books you may recognise them.

      So:
      Arianne.”

      Good to see him working furiously to finish the book without distractions.

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    13. They already had six or seven written scripts while Season 5 was in full swing. Tight schedule.

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    14. Ravyn,

      Are you sure that’s what he is doing ? I’m pretty sure he said he doesn’t write when he travels which means he’s not writing at the moment,just because he got an idea for how a character dies doesn’t equal writing it .

      Or maybe you were sarcastic,it’s really hard to tell on the internet .

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    15. Ravyn,

      Should this be taken as irony or not? If it isn´t, I would like to state that I´d rather have a GRRM that publishes a book slower than he already does but keeps his inspiration and enjoyment for ASOIAF up instead of a GRRM rushing towards the end to finally have this project concluded and out of his hands.

      He´s writing at the pace of a rather slow glacier, that´s true, but I actually had to smile when reading this little transcription since it seems like he hasn´t lost his gusto for the books and the series alike.

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    16. Ravyn: Good to see him working furiously to finish the book without distractions.

      Yes, because it is rational to expect that a 66 year old man work 24/7/365.

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    17. ColdPie,

      Piss on NBC. Hannibal is one of the best shows on TV. Hopefully it does find a new home like outdoorcats said.

      I know a lot of people want Mads as Euron though, so if they get what they want then I’ll be happy for both Mads and the people championing him for the part (although I’m not entirely sold on him as Euron). The Following (another excellent show) also got cancelled a while back so I hope they get James Purefoy instead. The man is the Crow’s Eye as far as I’m concerned.

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    18. Tormund’s Woman,

      I always like to think that people have a positive mindset when writing such comments, so I wanted to ask first before potentially blaming him for a misinterpretion on my part. 🙂

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    19. GeekFurious,

      Still one of my favorite shows ever. I understood the idea of the final season and finale, I just wish they would have went in a different direction. S5 was up and down IMO, but to each his own. I Wonder how Hurley, Ben and Walt are doing on the island

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    20. Knight of Storm´s End,

      I don’t blame you! Martin however said he’s never writing while traveling or out of town because he works on a computer with Wordstar, no laptops. When I say several times, I really mean a whole lot of times, many, many times. So when I see “working furiously without distractions while he’s at the con reading chapters”, I automatically see someone knows Martin’s habits and made a tongue in cheek remark. I may be wrong though, so I’m driving to the nearest store that has hats 😛

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    21. Chad Brick,

      Would you fanboys stop with this nonsense.no one said they expected him to work non stop on it,it just seems he is doing EVERYTHING but working on it despite his claims,i mean between the hundreds projects that he has,the managing of his theater,and the countless vacations it’s understandable why some people are starting to get mad,and as you pointed out the man isn’t exactly in the prime of his life so yeah . Also the fact that we are nearing 5 years since the last book confirms our fears,before he used the excuses with the fact that he had to turn one book into two books or the whole Meerenese Knot thing but now it just shows that he’s not into it anymore or at least not like before .

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    22. Tormund’s Woman,

      No need to drive to the next hat-store, you may still be right and most likely you are. 🙂 Besides, I heard that hats are really hard to chew and dentists usually disadvise to use them as a dietary supplement.

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    23. mau,

      I personally don’t care if it ever comes out tbh,i was only saying that i sympathise with those that still wait for it and are dissapointed in his lack of effort .

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    24. SOPRANOS SOPRANOS SOPRANOS

      Also even if Hannibal is finished Mads Mikkelsen can’t be Euron because Euron has to be an insufferably arrogant hottie

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    25. James purefoy for ME, don t have NOTHING of euron. the apearance, the voice, Nothing.

      I prefer much more Mads.

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    26. Love it! New director, new costume designer, new blood even at this hour. The energy level is still excellent.

      Greatjon of Slumber:
      Maybe it’s me, but I feel like I’m looking at a picture from the year 2033 and that Kit Harington has really let himself go.

      Hahaha!

      Sad about Hannibal, but not very unexpected. I want to see Hugh Dancy get picked up by another show, ASAP.

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    27. Knight of Storm´s End:
      Ravyn,

      Should this be taken as irony or not? If it isn´t, I would like to state that I´d rather have a GRRM that publishes a book slower than he already does but keeps his inspiration and enjoyment for ASOIAF up instead of a GRRM rushing towards the end to finally have this project concluded and out of his hands.

      He´s writing at the pace of a rather slow glacier, that´s true, but I actually had to smile when reading this little transcription since it seems like he hasn´t lost his gusto for the books and the series alike.

      He also made another joke, saying the chapter he read was 18 pages so he only needs to finish 1480 more pages and the book can be published.

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    28. JonSnow25:
      Chad Brick,

      Would you fanboys stop with this nonsense.no one said they expected him to work non stop on it,it just seems he is doing EVERYTHING but working on it despite his claims,i mean between the hundreds projects that he has,the managing of his theater,and the countless vacations it’s understandable why some people are starting to get mad,and as you pointed out the man isn’t exactly in the prime of his life so yeah . Also the fact that we are nearing 5 years since the last book confirms our fears,before he used the excuses with the fact that he had to turn one book into two books or the whole Meerenese Knot thing but now it just shows that he’s not into it anymore or at least not like before .

      I was referring to the guy who said he wasn’t writing anymore show episodes, canceling convention/public appearances, begging fans to stop emailing him show questions, because he needed to focus on finishing the new book. Then turning up at a book reading in Germany (granted, I don’t know the date of this appearance but it seems recent?). Anyway, I could care less if he ever finishes another Westeros book. Frankly, I feel the show has completely lapped him.

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    29. Mormont: Euron has to be an insufferably arrogant hottie

      While I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iron Islands in the books, one of the things which stuck with me is Euron is one of those men who is so good-looking it should be illegal. Mads is a fascinating looking man, and not unattractive, but he is not over-the-top good-looking, imo. That said, there are plenty of characters in the show who do not look at all like I imagined them when I was reading the books, but the actors portraying the characters won me over with their great work.

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    30. hodor,

      Good news. George normally seems to react with some sort of grumpy reservedness when confronted with the current state of his work, now that he´s joking about what work he has left to do, I think he´s not too far from finishing it, whatever that means in the end.

      We shall see. Come 2016, we shall see.

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    31. Tormund’s Woman:
      Knight of Storm´s End,
      Ravyn’s a great girl, or at least I think she’s a girl. I believe she was merely pointing out yet another in a string of contradictions between what George says he’ll do and what he actually does. He swore off writing for the show this season and said that he was declining any and all future engagements and commitments so he could exclusively focus on the book, the whole book, and nothing but the book. And then a few months later, he turns around and says,

      I am still editing the latest Wild Cards volume, HIGH STAKES. I have an overall deal with HBO, and three new television concepts in various stages of development, with a variety of collaborators and partners. I am consulting on a couple of videogames. There’s the Wild Cards movie at Universal, where I’m a producer. And I’ve recently formed a new production company to make low budget short films based on a trio of classic short stories by… well, no, not yet, that would be telling. Premature telling.

      We all love George, even when he contradicts himself, but I think it’s good fun to tease him about it nonetheless.

      Do I contradict myself? Very well, then. I contradict myself. I am large; I contain multitudes. –Not a George

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    32. I don’t see any resemblance between Euron and Purefoy, do you? XD
      Give him a beard like he’s worn in many roles and the artwork may as well be a caricature of Purefoy.
      http://oi61.tinypic.com/294j7ue.jpg

      I can see a lot of actors in the role, but Purefoy has always been the man I picture when reading the books.

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    33. Al Swearengen,

      Who’s gonna bring those dragons to Westeros? Tyrion or Jorah? No,Dany might die,but that will happen only at the very end of the story…if ever.Her arc would be totally pointless,if she’ll never make it to Westeros and fight Others.

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    34. Nymeria Warrior Queen: While I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iron Islands in the books, one of the things which stuck with me is Euron is one of those men who is so good-looking it should be illegal.

      Exactly. #TeamArmitage

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    35. Geralt of Rivia,

      I am just not a fan of that character at all, the thought of her flying over to Westeros to save the day makes me want to vomit. I am kinda hoping that Victarion’s going to kill her in a fit of rage during TWOW.

      BTW Triss or Yennifer?

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    36. Mads Mads Mads MadsMads!! Please!

      Back to Bender – loved his work on Lost. but I SWEAR if they “Across the Sea” Rhaegar and Lyanna, I’ll be upset.
      It’s like Benioff saying “Dead is Dead” about Jon Snow. I just get a bad feeling when they bring up Lost associations.

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    37. I live like an hour away from Hamburg, but I didnt know anything about GRRM being there. Afterwards I heard about it. :((

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    38. Tatters:
      Just back to inform that Elio and Linda is quitting. Sorry if you know already.
      http://www.vulture.com/2015/06/game-of-thrones-blogger-roundtable.html

      Buh-bye.

      Seriously. Do the people from westeros.org have anything better to do with their time than laud GRRM’s novels as the next best thing to the Bible and condemn GoT as nothing short of dogshit? Because honestly, to those who haven’t drank the ASOIAF kool-aid, that’s how they come across over there. It’s self-important fan entitlement run amok.

      Fine. We get it. You’re unhappy. Stop watching the damn show then. Honestly.

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    39. Ginevra,

      Knight of Storm´s End:
      Ravyn,

      Should this be taken as irony or not? If it isn´t, I would like to state that I´d rather have a GRRM that publishes a book slower than he already does but keeps his inspiration and enjoyment for ASOIAF up instead of a GRRM rushing towards the end to finally have this project concluded and out of his hands.

      He´s writing at the pace of a rather slow glacier, that´s true, but I actually had to smile when reading this little transcription since it seems like he hasn´t lost his gusto for the books and the series alike.

      Well, I am aware that she (?) wanted to point out that he’s quite slow in terms of writing or at least contradicting himself concerning his effective work-time, to which I replied with this answer. So yeah, I didn’t write anything that would insult or diminish the worth of her statement, I’m pointing out my view on the transcription provided by John and how I feel about George’s writing-effort. I didn’t want to insult her (?) in any way and I don’t think something here could be interpreted as that. 🙂

      Knight of Storm´s End:
      Tormund’s Woman,

      I always like to think that people have a positive mindset when writing comments, so I wanted to ask first before potentially blaming him for a misinterpretion on my part.

      Again, my whole intention was to point out that a slow Martin is still better than a fast, unsatisfied Martin and that I had fun with his ironic jokes concerning his own writing-speed…

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    40. Tatters,

      Good fucking riddance. I wish they would’ve quit poisoning the well years ago.

      Hopefully all of the other hate-watching confirmation-bias circlejerkers take this as notice that they should stop watching too. It won’t have the SLIGHTEST impact on the show’s viewership and it will make the fandom a MUCH more positive place as a result.

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    41. Greenjones,

      Hopefully you’re right,now that the show has passed the books,maybe some of the other purists will quit as well,weak chances i know but hey it’s still nice to dream .

      But then again,i wonder how are they going to manage their site next year if they quit watching,are they just going to close the show section or what ?

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    42. Nymeria Warrior Queen: While I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iron Islands in the books, one of the things which stuck with me is Euron is one of those men who is so good-looking it should be illegal.

      Isn’t Euron supposed to look like he has just suffered a heroin overdose? That usually doesn’t fly as “hot” for most women insofar as I’ve ever noticed. (Long curly hair, yes; blue lips? Not so much…..)

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    43. Wimsey,

      Dude i just want to say how much i respect you and even though i don’t agree with all of your views,you are the perfect example of how a book veteran should act not like the previous people that we were just reffering,cool to have you in this fandom and hopefully you aren’t going to leave us 🙂

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    44. Tatters,

      Thank God. I don’t mind them having an opinion, but she is just so toxic that it makes me embarrassed for being part of the fandom.

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    45. JonSnow25,

      If they close the show section they’ll lose more than half of their page-views, I imagine. But if they want to remain unspoiled they may have too. There are plenty of better alternate forums out there though. I know I stopped regularly commenting on AFOIAF months ago after the “ranting and raving” section’s bile began to permeate the whole show section.

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    46. James, Mad… both sound great and more sexy than Euron was in in my brain…

      leaning towards James… I know him better…

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    47. Greenjones,

      Yeah,i noticed that all the decent posters there have started to dissapear,even that Jack Bauer guy who may have been annoying sometimes with his constant fears of the show being cancelled,he had a certain charm to him,nowadays it’s just a shithole and i don’t even remember the last time that i visited the forum . Might as well put it out of it’s misery !

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    48. Tatters,

      I love the books. Yup, even the last 2. But those two dummies almost make saying I’m a book fan feel similar to saying an ordinary Christian is a Westboro Baptist.

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    49. Btw,Linda has called out “some sites”(we all know she is reffering to this one) for posting casting leaks and saying that’s unprofessional,yet she had no guilt wanting to spoil the show just a week ago, if that isn’t hypocrisy i don’t know what is . I don’t know if it’s posted on their site as well because like i said i don’t go there anymore but i remember last year and the year before that they had reported on casting leaks as well,so is she amnesiac or what ?

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    50. Oooo…. Jon Rhys Meyers is TOO sexy for Euron… makes Jon Snow look like… someone with the blandest name ever….

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    51. Knight of Storm’s End,

      I know that you (and Tormund’s Woman) are some of the most respectful posters around! I just wanted to point out that Ravyn is, too, despite the facetious tone of the post that made me laugh a bit too loudly.

      I particularly enjoyed your insight into Hamburg’s ill-fated mermaid legend, and the theories about how that could be woven into the death of Arianne (or whichever character he meant).

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    52. Knight of Storm’s End: Again, my whole intention was to point out that a slow Martin is still better than a fast, unsatisfied Martin and that I had fun with his ironic jokes concerning his own writing-speed…

      In part, it depends on why he is being slow. One of the things that really hurt the last two books was that they were overwritten. There were some completely unnecessary storylines (Arianne being the most obvious example, but far from the only example), and far, far too many 3rd party PoVs. And none of it did anything to enhance the story: indeed, particularly for Crows, all it did was obfuscate the story.

      Indeed, I really wish that he’d get back to focusing on the primary and secondary protagonists only. Part of what made the storytelling in the first three books so clear was that all of the chapters fueled the story. But non-protagonist PoVs rarely do that: typically, they just provide plot-for-the-sake-of-plot, and at worst, they provide only gratuitous world-building.

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    53. Wimsey: Isn’t Euron supposed to look like he has just suffered a heroin overdose?That usually doesn’t fly as “hot” for most women insofar as I’ve ever noticed.(Long curly hair, yes; blue lips?Not so much…..)

      Nope. Just sexy and an amazing penis. And it just so happens…..

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    54. JonSnow25,

      Aw, thanks…. No, I’ll be taking some breaks – I am teaching a couple of short courses this summer – but I’ll be hanging around.

      However, on days like today (i.e., my “Jon is Dead” days 🙁 )…. it’s hard….

      (Seriously, I think that this issue might have artificial induced bipolarity in my brain!)

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    55. Can we have Mads AND Purefoy? In different roles of course. I’d be fine with Purefoy as Euron but am toying with the hypothetical of the otherworldly Mads as a Coldhands-type intermediary between the Walkers and the Watch (or what’s left of it).

      The show has employed Russians and Scandinavians as Wildlings, so Mads would be a good match there. Also, there seem to be various kinds of Walkers and Wights, with differing ranks, looks, abilities, characteristics–a yet undefined hierarchy.

      Mads would make for a great, mysterious emissary, I think. Or not–just spitballin’ here.

      Oh, and, off topic: for the many here who love ‘Hannibal,’ what makes it great? I’ve never seen it and would be thankful if any of you have a minute or two to spare for a line or two about that show. Thanks!

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    56. i think the best possible introduction to euron would be he killing/meeting sallandhor saam at the sea. MY IDEA:

      we see first at the iron ilands, balon knowing about the fall of stannis, and at somehow celebrating his ´´vitcory´´ being the last of the Five kings (He, Robb, Renly, Stannis, Joffrey),then he crosses a bridge in a storm en route to another part of the fortress and has a great fall that leads to death.

      yara in the morning following sailing his father’s body , and talk to secondary characters she had become the leader of the Iron Islands with his father and brother dead . then we cut to Salhandor browsing quietly , and commenting with their sailors teh fall of stannis and balon , until we see a bizarre ship, sallahandor look at the ship e that flag and makes a worried face.

      Then cut to inside of this bizarre ship, we hear groans of one of the ship’s rooms. We enter at this room and see a mans body (not the face) with a gorgeus woman, they are interrupted by one of the sailors , warning he have seen another ship . The man (euron) puts his Woman to get out, and sits on the bed where we can only see his torso .
      Sitting he looks at a barrel next to him with a seemingly strange liquid , he plunges a glass and drinks . the camera rises , we see the glass now capping his face, he drinks it and lowers the glass , and we see the euron face with his eye patch and his blue lips.

      Euron confronts sallandhor , steals his treasures and kill his sailors . Salhandor says imagined euron would be exiled and would never know him. Euron says it’s a day of bad luck in life sallandhor , sallandhor offers everything that has, maps to buried treasure and diamonds , euron not shown interested , …. until sallandhor says euron should be the new king of the islands iron, euron not understand, sall says balon died and theon is hostage in winteffel . Euron opens a ghastly smile, thanks salt and cuts his throat. and navigates to iron islands.

      i do not know if is good, but i think i would like,

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    57. JP Dayne: Lost was a huge pile of dog shit

      If so, then it was for a world of maggots. (I was going to write dung beetles but they eat herbivore feces.)

      Seriously, Lost was pretty good for most of it’s run. It’s down year really came from the showrunners procrastinating because the studio would not give them permission to wind down the show. And if the ending upset people, well, that was probably because some people were betting on different endings.

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    58. Rodrik the Reader,

      The show is extremely well written, clever, and there is a huge artistic flare, especially in the visual sense. Lots of dark humor of the culinary variety. If it weren’t for Will Graham (trying to catch Hannibal) and the actor who plays Will, the show would be consumed by its dark nature. Hannibal favors both darkness and critical acclaim at the price of mass appeal, which I’m sure led to the cancellation, but I do hope it gets picked up by another venue.

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    59. JP Dayne,

      Lost was awesome for the most part,it’s one of those shows like GOT and BB that can’t and won’t be replaced no matter how hard they try . Then again i didn’t watch it when it aired so maybe i’m more leniant towards it,it’s one thing to spend six years on a show like those who watched it from the begginning and another to binge watch six seasons of a show in a month like me,different experience .

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    60. Wimsey,

      “Lost” was a tease in the sense that the audience was promised (or at least expected) answers to all the riddles–a Grand Unifying Theory of Everything. The journey was great but the final destination felt like a betrayal. (Perhaps ‘betrayal’ is too strong a word; is there a better one to convey the sense that many viewers felt they had been played for suckers?)

      The lore of the show is that no one expected it to last more than a season. So, a lot of fancy stepping had to take place to keep plates spinning year after year.

      GoT at least has the outline of a real ending and resolution (bittersweet, I think George put it), and if nothing else, D&D are considerable showmen, so I remain confident that the ending will be quite satisfying.

      It’s wondering what happens between now and that ending that is driving us all a little nuts!

      Oh, and: “Lost” was very much the GoT of its era. It had the same rabid following, the same what-does-it-all-mean theorizing, the same academic analysis, the same e-book cottage industry of enthusiasts. And, especially, the esteem of critics and the awards show industry. When “Lost” won its Emmy, everyone applauded.

      All it lacked was a foundation series of books to keep it on course and on mission.

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    61. Greenjones: But if they want to remain unspoiled they may have too.

      They don’t seem to care about being spoiled. They just don’t want to be informed. They’ll probably continue to moderate & speculate without having watched the show.

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    62. Pigeon: But those two dummies almost make saying I’m a book fan feel similar to saying an ordinary Christian is a Westboro Baptist.

      lol They doth protest too much?

        Quote  Reply

    63. Ginevra:
      Knight of Storm’s End,
      I know that you (and Tormund’s Woman) are some of the most respectful posters around! I just wanted to point out that Ravyn is, too, despite the facetious tone of the post that made me laugh a bit too loudly.

      For the record: I thought Ravyn’s “furiously writing” comment was rather funny. I cannot imagine Martin writing furiously at a keyboard anyway.
      And there’s nothing wrong with a tongue in cheek remark. The man himself poked fun at his speed or how lots of us are speculating about the number of pages he wrote until now, after all. 18 pages, he said. I lol-ed at that too. (of course some may actually believe that)

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    64. Rygritte,

      As I recall Euron was described as handsome at some point…. Well maybe not called handsome, but the most handsome of Quellon Greyjoy’s sons.
      From AFFC Chapter 18 “The Iron Captain”:

      “Euron was the most comely of Lord Quellon’s sons, and three years of exile had not changed that. His hair was still black as a midnight sea, with never a whitecap to be seen, and his face was still smooth and pale beneath his neat dark beard. “

      I never thought of him as drop dead hot I guess, but I did think of him with good looks, charisma and attitude which made him seem even more attractive.

      I think a lot of people could play Euron honestly..
      Especially depending on how they write the character. By combining him with Victarion (if they do) they could tweak his character somewhat as well…

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    65. Lady Wolfsbane,

      I know the horse has left the barn, but a young Rhys Meyers would have made a sensational Ramsay. A while back a commenter here, I think, left a link to a pick of an early twenties Rhys Meyers with shoulder length hair, a snaky physique, and a sullen, malevolent gaze. He really looked dangerous and evil, and I think Rhys Meyers made a name for himself early in his career playing one or more charismatic psychos.

      Oh, well…

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    66. Lost was a bad show because of the writing. The directors certainly delivered. Jack Bender is a terrific talent. Remember that he also worked on shows like Carnivale and The Sopranos.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Rodrik the Reader: the audience was promised (or at least expected) answers to all the riddles

      This is what concerns me about ASOIAF. Yes, we’ll get a bittersweet ending, but there’s over 2,000 muthafucking characters. Benjen, Coldhands, Tristifer Botley…I need all the details. Is Dany gonna defeat the White Walkers just in time for spring and The End? Will the last chapter reveal the entire story was told by a blue-eyed giant named Macumber?

        Quote  Reply

    68. Davos’ Luck: Carice van Houten (Melisandre) where she says she has a scene in the upcoming season, and she describes it as “quite spectacular, and I really can’t say anything about”.

      That’s the same fucking thing she said last season.

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    69. Davos’ Luck,

      “You’ve seen her clock Jon Snow, which is a great ending because you think, ‘Uh oh, what’s going to happen there?’,” Van Houten says of her character’s appearance in the finale.

      “You feel that she is concentrating more and more towards Jon Snow … there are slight hints that something’s going to happen.”

      Yay!

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    70. Davos’ Luck,

      Oh boy!

      After Kit said that he’s dead and not coming back for the next season, she comes out with this tease… I like Kit and wouldn’t want fans to label him a liar or give him a hard time. Maybe it really takes a whole season to revive him.

      Thank you for the link.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Rodrik the Reader: All it lacked was a foundation series of books to keep it on course and on mission.

      😀

      That written, perhaps the best of the series at “keeping on mission” was Babylon 5 (which was invented for TV). Lost certainly had a plan: but I think the fact that they couldn’t outline it as “X seasons, where we will be this far along after Season 2, this far after Season 4, start wrapping in Season X-1.

      Moreover, much like Harry Potter, most (if not all) of the unanswered questions for Lost were questions that the fans raised independent of the actual story-telling. (Harry Potter fans drew up huge lists of unanswered questions, which all had one thing in common: never once did Harry ever wonder about them!)

      SoI&F will be the same: a lot of questions that fans have raised that were never raised by characters in the books will go unanswered, and people will be upset. The TV show might leave more questions unanswered: remember, it’s Monday, and that’s one of my “Jon is Dead” days where I fear that they truncated Jon’s story early to let GRRM do the big reveals in his books. (It’s not a pyschosis if you are aware of it, right?)

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    72. Wimsey: Isn’t Euron supposed to look like he has just suffered a heroin overdose?That usually doesn’t fly as “hot” for most women insofar as I’ve ever noticed.(Long curly hair, yes; blue lips?Not so much…..)

      Maybe that’s how you interpreted his description, but it certainly isn’t how I interpreted it. I remember handsome, black hair, pale, and the eye not covered by a patch being sky-blue. Now, the bluish tint to his lips from drinking Shade of the Evening doesn’t sound overly appealing, but pale, black hair, and blue eyes (or in his case, eye) sounds perfect, at least to me. Then again, men who are pale with black hair and blue eyes (or in Euron’s case, eye) have always been my weakness.

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    73. Ginevra,

      George once referred to his writing process as more gardener than architect. That is, no blueprints for him. Just plant some seeds and hope they grow into… something. Though he was probably just being the gracious guest during his latest jaunt, it’s astonishing to consider that all those side trips and activities might be what he needs to keep the creative juices flowing. Inspiration, it seems, can be found in the most unlikely places, and one can never predict when it hits.

      It is even more astonishing that so many new ideas about the story keep popping into his head! Just a few weeks ago he was saying he just came up with a twist he’d never considered. I suppose that’s a good thing, right?

      The flip side of this is that it’s all for naught if one stays too long away from the keyboard. The act of tapping on it hour after hour, day after day, yields its own epiphanies, and before you know it, tiny seeds grow into might weirwoods.

      I wonder what George’s approach was twenty years ago. I suspect that, back in the day, in the full blast of creativity, bursting at the seams to get ASOIAF on paper, he was, indeed, ‘writing furiously’!

      (Oh, and, thanks for answering my question about ‘Hannibal.’)

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    74. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Pale skin and blue lips made me think of someone who looked mostly dead: that is how someone who has nearly frozen to death, has overdosed on narcotics, or is suffering from some toxic shock syndrome would appear.

      However, I never paid Euron much mind: the Iron Born chapters did absolutely nothing for me, and I barely remember them. (I honestly have no memory of our ever reading Euron speak, but people have cited lines of his.)

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    75. JonSnow25:
      Btw,Linda has called out “some sites”(we all know she is reffering to this one) for posting casting leaks and saying that’s unprofessional,yet she had no guilt wanting to spoil the show just a week ago, if that isn’t hypocrisy i don’t know what is . I don’t know if it’s posted on their site as well because like i said i don’t go there anymore but i remember last year and the year before that they had reported on casting leaks as well,so is she amnesiac or what ?

      My favorite part of that Vulture interview was that they commented on Ep 10, despite Linda saying she was done with the show after the Shireen spoiler from Benioff in Ep 9. Basically, her boycott lasted 6 days, like this one will last 10 months. Frankly, I hope HBO takes this as their cue to cut her and Elio completely out of the loop and no longer provide them with previews or premiere tickets. If the show and all the people who work on it offends her so much, then they shouldn’t bother associating themselves with her .

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    76. Tormund’s Woman,

      I’ve read somewhere interview with Weiss and Benioff about Kit.He’s talented lad and he will find plenty of others projects/jobs.Hopefully they will kepp Kit as new Jon.I’m starting to like him as an actor in GoT.Maybe,it’s meant to be…you know to start finally liking his acting abilities,only to be replaced by someone else.

      Davos’ Luck,

      Deesensfan will be very happy about this. 😀

      It could be only one thing and that’s Jon’s revival.I can’t think of anything else fitting this description.

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    77. Wimsey,

      Ah, ok, that makes sense. Hahaha. I didn’t like the Iron Islands, either. The only thing I really remember is how gorgeous Euron was supposed to be. I couldn’t remember why I thought that, so I looked up his description, saw pale, black hair, blue eye, and went, yep, that’s why I remember him that way.

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    78. Wimsey,

      To delve into the GWTW example GRRM has cited to address another issue: did Scarlett and Rhett get back together? It was good that we didn’t know! And a mistake that the Mitchell estate finally capitulated and had the tale ‘ruined’ by lesser writers 50-odd years later.

      Ending a tale with some ambiguities certainly has illustrious precedents! As for your reference to ‘Babylon 5’: it now joins ‘Hannibal’ as my procrastination vehicles of choice to avoid the bucket list copy of ‘War and Peace’ glaring balefully at me from its dusty and ignored perch on my bookshelf.

      So much media, so little time…

        Quote  Reply

    79. Joey:
      James Rivers,

      Best comment haha. The outrigger thing is the main issue I still have with LOST. Otherwise easily one of my favorite shows ever.

      I always had a theory that it was Ben, Miles and Richard on the outrigger after they blew up the BR. I wrote about it here before the last few episodes aired:

      http://joeysaade.blogspot.com/2010/04/entering-last-act-of-final-season-of.html

      Ah cool, heh. Yeah, what annoyed me most is it wasn’t like it was some random thing from Season 2 that they just forgot about. It was from Season 5! Just a year prior! Gah.

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    80. In other news, did anyone ever figure out which actor wrote the angry letter to D&D about getting killed off, and which actor was surprised and upset, per Jonathan Pryce preseason, to get killed off?

        Quote  Reply

    81. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      ‘Toxic shock’ Euron is an angle I hadn’t considered, but I kinda like it. More Keith Richards and less sexy bad boy? That could work, and it dovetails nicely with the casting call.

        Quote  Reply

    82. James Rivers,

      What’s worse is that they actually said at the LOST 10 year reunion Paley Fest panel recently that for charity they may actually release what would have happened with the Outrigger. Kind of pisses me off even though they are doing it for charity. haha

      Also, I am fairly certain that the actor was Ian McElhinney (Ser Barristan) who sent the angry letter to D&D.

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    83. Rodrik the Reader,

      It has to be just a metaphor. And a bad one at that. He had an outline to begin with. He has provided an outline to HBO for the unpublished material. In my experience, an outline is pretty much your skeleton design. And in the end, anyone who has any gardening skills will tell you that if you are a good gardner, you really design and plan everything: where your tulips go, what soil to use, where to plant your sunflower to get better results etc.

      I can’t believe I actually responded to this. I have never done it before and I’ve seen it mentioned every time Martin’s style comes up.

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    84. James Rivers:
      In other news, did anyone ever figure out which actor wrote the angry letter to D&D about getting killed off, and which actor was surprised and upset, per Jonathan Pryce preseason, to get killed off?

      Wasn’t it Ian McIlhenny (Barristan Selmy) who wrote them the letter stating all the reasons he didn’t think his character should be killed off? I seem to recall Benioff making an offhand comment about it during an interview. Don’t know what the Jonathan Pryce question refers to….

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    85. Question: Has the possibility of 8 seasons been officially laid to rest? I know that 7 seasons still seems most likely, but I thought D&D had not yet laid down the law.

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    86. Arthur,

      Oh, what the hell. Jon wargs into Mel. Fire and Ice. He’s going to flounce around in Carice van Houten and her slinky red frocks for a season. When Carice stares into a mirror, Kit stares back, a get-me-outa-here-but-this-is-kinda-hot look on his face.

      Either that or: a la Tommy Lee Jones schlepping the deceased Robert Duvall from Montana to Texas in ‘Lonesome Dove,’ Mel packs Jon in salt and spends all season transporting him to the Riverlands so Thoros can work his magic. Somehow, on the way, she meets up with Brienne and Pod, and maybe even Theon and Sansa, for a little LS action.

      I’m joking, I’m joking!!!

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    87. Cersei’s Brain:
      John,

      Since Lady died, always felt Sansa wouldn’t make it to the end.

      I’d always taken that to mean that she wouldn’t end the series as a ‘Stark’ (i.e. she’d marry into a different family/identity). But death works too. *Shutters*

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    88. ArgonathofBraavos,

      Not completely. As always with such things, the series will go on until HBO’s official statement that it is over after season X and afaik we did not get that yet. That said, it’s clear by now that D&D want to end the show after season 7 and it’s pretty likely that HBO will accept that. There is still the small chance that D&D can be convinced to do season 8, but HBO better be quick on that or the last season risks to feel like an unnecessary attachment.

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    89. Tormund’s Woman,

      I see George as somewhere in between the gardener and the architect. He has to have structure to be able to plant all of those delicious seeds of foreshadowing. But he also constantly breaks from his own structure as one book becomes two, two become three, and three become seven.

      A modicum of tangential activities should certainly be good for the soul. But George always seems to take on more than he realizes. Trilogy, indeed.

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    90. Tormund’s Woman,

      Both ‘architect’ and ‘gardener’ are imperfect metaphors for what writing entails. Writers do, in fact, change their minds all the time about all sorts of things. That’s what I was getting at in saying that just typing away day in and day out yields its own epiphanies. I know this is true because I’ve done it! Sure, there’s a general idea of where things are headed, but the details aren’t spring loaded. If they were, the writing would be done lickety split.

      George’s original book proposal came to light a few months ago, and we all had a laugh over how different it was from the books published just a few years later. So, yeah, he knows the ending, and he gave whatever he could to D&D, but those upcoming 1,500 pages of WoW will include discoveries arrived at exclusive of the best laid plans of any outline that might have existed. Not everything is written in stone from the get go. Conversely, there isn’t a writer alive who doesn’t occasionally wish he could go back and tweak the published material here and there.

      Occasionally, successful writers like Stephen King or filmmakers like George Lucas are afforded the luxury of revisiting and revising that which was. So, perhaps creativity is conceptually neither architectural nor horticultural and another metaphor is called for. Or perhaps no metaphor exists to fully describe the creative spark.

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    91. Haha, this made me chuckle. I remember back in maybe 2008 or so, way before I had even heard of GRRM (I’m not normally much of a fantasy nerd, didn’t read ASOIAF until after I’d watched S1 of GoT) I was still following Damon Lindelof on twitter from the days of looking for LOST spoilers etc.

      In an interview, GRRM had said “I need to get the ending right, I don’t want to pull a LOST”. Lindelof tweeted a link to the interview with a comment something like “yeah, well at least I don’t take 6 years to write the next freaking book. P.S. 1994 called, they want their web design back P.P.S. I love your work, keep doing what you do”.

      The web design crack was totally fair. GRRM had a spectacularly bad purple website well into the GoT-on-TV era, about 20 years past its expiry date.

      But to the topic at hand, Bender will be great. I actually really liked LOST all the way up to about the last 10 minutes. The ending was really sh*t, but you get that… So few serialised shows successfully do a decent final episode. It was better than the Dexter ending at least.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Ginevra:
      RosanaZugey,

      Sansa was my gut reaction before reading the Arianne implication.

      The only thing I look forward to doing if GRRM kills Sansa off (assuming I don’t drink myself into a coma) is going off on “purist”-like tangent, talking about: What was the point of Sansa’s character!?! She was meaningless!! Why even introduce her in the first place?!?! What terrible writing!!!! It makes no sense!! There’s no logical reason this should be happening!!!!!!!11111 SCREW GRRM!!! *Pulls out hair*

      Side note, he could have been talking about ANYONE, not just Sansa. Plus, I recall the show runners saying that he already knew how the major character’s stories end. If GRRM just NOW had this sudden revelation about how he’s going to kill someone, I don’t think he’s talking about Sansa. I’m sure her fate/storyline was decided a long time ago. But well, what do I know? He could very well be talking about Sansa. If that’s the case, be prepared for my impending MELTDOWN. :p

      Side, side, note: In “Mother’s Mercy”, when Arya was taking off all of the faces from dead Jaquen and it ended with hers…did anyone else take it as foreshadowing that SHE would die? That was my immediate reaction.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Ravyn,

      Only surviving Stark will be Rickon.

      Bran will be killed in the final battle of Ice and Fire, or Humanity vs Supernatural Forces or whatever.

      Arya will be sent on a mission to kill Jon for real, but be sacrificed when he plunges Longclaw into her heart to make Lightbringer.

      Sansa will… I don’t know, but I suspect she will be raped or at least severely mistreated by Harry the Heir on their wedding night and have a pretty awful time of book 6 and die at some point.

      Rickon will reclaim Winterfell after all the wreckage has cleared.

      It is known.

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    94. Rygritte,

      Every time I see a GRRM ‘soon’ meme, I laugh. This is gold.

      I don’t think he’ll kill Sansa, but you never know. I always expected Dany would die.

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    95. Broken Wolf,

      Is this a joke? You do realize that Sean Bean, Julian Glover, Jonathan Pryce, Diana Rigg, and Charles Dance were all in Bond films, right? Bean, Glover, and Pryce were Bond villains and Diana Rigg was a Bond girl. So of all the reasons Mikkelsen wouldn’t be cast, being in a Bond film is definitely not one of them.

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    96. Apparently, Hannibal producers have started a #SaveHannibal Twitter campaign. Maybe we should start a #SaveMads4GoT campaign.

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    97. Chickenduck,

      Bender?!? Sweet! He was awesome in Futurama, and he should be looking for a new gig now. He could actually make the Iron Born interesting and appropriately named!

      (“Game of Thrones over, losers! I’m 4.5% Valyrian steel, and your dragon fires and White Walker powers got nada on me! Hand over all the booze and money now!”)

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    98. RosanaZugey,

      I gotta hand it to you. Your post made me laugh at the beginning–then shudder at the end. Arya being confronted with the sight of her own corpse is a possible foreshadowing I didn’t think of till you mentioned it, but it does make sense. I fear that she will go rogue again somewhere down the road and Jaqen will kill her, perhaps right after she saves the world and everyone in it. Real bittersweet, right George?

      I prefer to think the scene in question had more to do with Arya not realizing she’d already been drugged. Nothing was as it seemed, hence Arya’s panic. Arya looking down at Jaqen, then all the other faces, then herself, then realizing Jaqen was standing behind her, meant everything was topsy turvy as in a hallucinogenic nightmare, as befits the Faceless Men who use drugs, magic, religion, hypnosis, God knows what to paralyze and discombobulate their victims. A tough lesson for anyone, much less No One.

      As for Sansa: I cling to the hope that she will be the Queen Elizabeth of this tale. Long may she reign! If not, I will join you in a meltdown.

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    99. RosanaZugey:

      Side, side, note: In “Mother’s Mercy”, when Arya was taking off all of the faces from dead Jaquen and it ended with hers…did anyone else take it as foreshadowing that SHE would die? That was my immediate reaction.

      I read this on the internet, so take it with a shovel of salt, but someone said they heard that Arya was Martin’s wife’s favorite character and she made him promise not to kill her.

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    100. Davos’ Luck:
      Off topic, but I think it’s interesting to see this:

      http://thenewdaily.com.au/entertainment/2015/06/22/will-red-lady-revive-jon-snow/

      Basically, it’s an interview today with Carice van Houten (Melisandre) where she says she has a scene in the upcoming season, and she describes it as“quite spectacular, and I really can’t say anything about”. Hmmm…

      OMG …. Mel will revive Jon´s spirit in Stannis body and thus Jonnis will be born an epic mix of testosterone and a good heart…GET HYPE

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    101. Rodrik the Reader:
      RosanaZugey,

      I gotta hand it to you. Your post made me laugh at the beginning–then shudder at the end. Arya being confronted with the sight of her own corpse is a possible foreshadowing I didn’t think of till you mentioned it, but it does make sense. I fear that she will go rogue again somewhere down the road and Jaqen will kill her, perhaps right after she saves the world and everyone in it. Real bittersweet, right George?

      I prefer to think the scene in question had more to do with Arya not realizing she’d already been drugged. Nothing was as it seemed, hence Arya’s panic. Arya looking down at Jaqen, then all the other faces, then herself, then realizing Jaqen was standing behind her, meant everything was topsy turvy as in a hallucinogenic nightmare, as befits the Faceless Men who use drugs, magic, religion, hypnosis, God knows what to paralyze and discombobulate their victims. A tough lesson for anyone, much less No One.

      As for Sansa: I cling to the hope that she will be the Queen Elizabeth of this tale. Long may she reign! If not, I will join you in a meltdown.

      …Yeah, sorry for spelling Jaqen wrong in my other post (along with a bunch of other things). It really gets my goat when people spell the character’s names wrong (i.e. Ramsey, Aria, Sensa, Tyrone, etc), so, I’m utterly ashamed that I just did that in an entire post. Sorry. *Blushes*

      Anywho…ahhhh. She was “trippin'” then. Makes sense. I can see that. Now that I think about it, I don’t recall the show ever having blatantly foreshadowed a character’s death before. So, yeah, maybe I’m just overthinking that scene.

      I actually hope the same exact thing for Sansa (Queen Elizabeth). Every single one of my theories, expectations, and potential joys are wrapped up in her character. So much so, that if she goes, she takes with her everything that kept me interested in this series (both books and show). I have hoped against hope that she would LIVE and grow to become a character worthy of the ultimate prize (the IT). If she doesn’t…and she just ends up dying…there won’t be enough alcohol in the WORLD to make that shit better for me. 🙁 Like, fml. What a waste of all these years with this damn series (books and show). 🙁

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    102. Ravyn: I read this on the internet, so take it with a shovel of salt, but someone said they heard that Arya was Martin’s wife’s favorite character and she made him promise not to kill her.

      LMAO. You said a shovel of salt.

      Bah! Promises made to wives don’t inspire hope in me. 😉 All I keep thinking about when I hear about that promise is the part in “Beauty and the Beast” where the little clock (forgot his name) says, “Well, there’s the usual things…flowers, chocolates, promises you don’t intend to keep…” lol. That’s how I feel about GRRM! He’s full of lies and promises he doesn’t intend to keep! That bastard’s going to kill off all of my Starks!! *Cries*

      Sorry. Its midnight here. My emotional stability checked out around 10pm. 😉

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    103. Personally, I’m quite happy to wait and see for Euron, as I have no personal stakes on it. As of AFFC (he didn’t really appear in ADWD), he’s pretty much a non-character with some potential, so it’ll be good to see what D&D do with what is essentially a blank slate (“cool” is not exactly a defining character trait.)

      Tatters,

      Thank God. Hopefully their crazy followers take notice and… you know, follow them.

      Greenjones,

      Shall I be happy that you didn’t manage to drag me to that hellhole, then? 😛

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    104. How exciting is all of this? We know season six is written, hard on pre-production and probably about to start production; we know of three out of four or five directors; and we have learnt about thirty roles already —including Euron, the Tarlys, the Benerro-equivalent High Priestess of Volantis taking the role of Moqorro in Meereen, a Child of the Forest, possibly Septon Meribald and probably Ser Arthur Dayne, which has to mean a Tower of Joy flashback and R+L=J reveal. And season five ended just a week ago!

      Greenjones,

      Lead the way! The forum days may be behind me, though. I get easily obsessed, so I try to avoid such places. As of now, the comments section of this website is literally my only exception. But please, make your suggestions 😉

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    105. RosanaZugey:
      Side, side, note: In “Mother’s Mercy”, when Arya was taking off all of the faces from dead Jaquen and it ended with hers…did anyone else take it as foreshadowing that SHE would die? That was my immediate reaction.

      Ravyn: I read this on the internet, so take it with a shovel of salt, but someone said they heard that Arya was Martin’s wife’s favorite character and she made him promise not to kill her.

      Ha, well what they didn’t give us in the show from GoT the book:

      Jon Snow to Arya: “You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

      So, another bit of foreshadowing or just GRRM messing with our heads? 😉

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    106. JP Dayne,

      I tried to watch “Lost” and couldn’t get into it. That doesn’t mean the director couldn’t pull off good episodes of GoT though. Sometimes when we get a new American made show in the UK it is advertised about “the show all America is talking about”. Mind you they said that about “Flash Forward” which was cancelled after a season. Maybe “all America” was talking about how underwhelming it was.

      The Westeros.org people are free to distance themselves from the GoT TV show as is anyone who doesn’t find it his or her cup of tea – but hopefully without belittling people who do like the show – or enjoy both show and books.

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    107. Dame of Mercia:
      JP Dayne,


      I tried to watch “Lost” and couldn’t get into it.That doesn’t mean the director couldn’t pull off good episodes of GoT though.

      Same here, got to episode 9 or 10 of ‘Lost’ and gave up on it. Judging by what I have read about ‘Lost’ they have presumably hired this director ( who I admit I’ve never heard of before, although I did watch “The Sopranos” and he has a huge résumé ) for specific reasons in the way he approaches his work, so I will hold out hope that he has plenty to bring to the party. Word is that he is very good at finales, so….

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    108. I love me some Mads as Euron, but Hannibal’s gotta stay.

      What is dead may never die / But rises again, harder and stronger!

      Rodrik the Reader:

      For the many here who love ‘Hannibal,’ what makes it great? I’ve never seen it and would be thankful if any of you have a minute or two to spare for a line or two about that show. Thanks!

      Absolutely! Hannibal is a really cool story told really, really, exquisitely well. It’s an original take on the Hannibal Lecter mythos and a truly unique experience for the viewer as the visuals are incredible. It’s less a procedural and more a piece of art unfolding over multiple episodes. The cinematography is second to none: no shot is wasted, and the violence is never gratuitous. The images remain with you for a long time afterwards and are quite beautiful regardless of how gory they are.

      Please don’t think that Hannibal is simply an indie art film, however, because the writing is also impeccable and characters are very easy to fall for. In addition to the leads, who are excellent, the show is able to attract talent like Gillian Anderson, Eddie Izzard, Anna Chlumsky, Gina Torres, Cynthia Nixon, Richard Armitage, and Zachary Quinto (to name a few). Guillermo Navarro and David Slade have both directed and Neil Marshall, who did “Blackwater” and “The Watchers on the Wall”, directed an episode this season. There is so much to enjoy and it would be a real shame if it ended. Bryan Fuller, the showrunner, has indicated that he has a beginning, middle and end for the series, so the show isn’t looking to run indefinitely and/or risk running out of steam. I’d definitely recommend you take a look!

      As an aside, WhatTheFlick started covering Hannibal last season and their reviews are quite fun. The official Hannibal Tumblr account (http://nbchannibal.tumblr.com/) is also worth checking out as it’s packed with great images and humour. It’ll give you a good feel for what the show’s about.

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    109. Dame of Mercia: The Westeros.org people are free to distance themselves from the GoT TV show as is anyone who doesn’t find it his or her cup of tea – but hopefully without belittling people who do like the show – or enjoy both show and books.

      HA! Fat chance. Belittling the Unsullied and feeling superior for having read a book series —a popular and accessible fantasy book series, mind you— is their favorite pastime! Well, aside from analyzing the books as if they were a history book; essentially forgoing all kinds of literary analysis and instead delving needlessly into the worldbuilding… which, of course, was written as nothing but fluff —and that is not a criticism of the books; worldbuilding is a fake history. It may make the world of the story feel more real and fascinating, but it’s not a fascinating part of the story by itself.

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    110. Luka Nieto:
      Well, aside from analyzing the books as if they were a history book; essentially forgoing all kinds of literary analysis and instead delving needlessly into the worldbuilding… which, of course, was written as nothing but fluff —and that is not a criticism of the books; worldbuilding is a fake history. It may make the world of the story feel more real and fascinating, but it’s not a fascinating part of the story by itself.

      Plenty of people clearly feel otherwise, and it’s rather condescending to suggest they’re wrong in enjoying the history of the world. Depth of world is one of the things fans like most about a good sci-fi/fantasy universe.

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    111. Sean C.,

      I enjoy worldbuilding as much as the next guy —I did say that it makes the world of the story feel fascinating and real. But that fake history is not a story. I’ve got no problem with people coming up with their own head-canons of this or that historical character or event, but too often these people get incredibly angry when you don’t share their totally subjective opinions. They aren’t even opinions. They are fantasies; fan fiction. Which is fine…! … as long as they are aware that it is fan fiction. Some of these people fail to see that, in most cases, probably not even GRRM has thought about these issues. This always happens with the über-fanatics in fandoms —when the series is over, they always feel disappointing about supposed “plot holes” that aren’t plot holes at all, that aren’t even questions the author or the characters knowingly raised. That goes doubly for worldbuilding —it’s fluff. In the case of ASOIAF, it’s incredibly intricate and endlessly complex and fascinating fluff, because GRRM loves his worldbuilding so much (sometimes to the detriment of the story), but in the end it’s still fluff.

      On a more personal level, it’s saddening to find so many blogs that analyze the books as if they were historical documents instead of a fictional construct made by an imperfect human —They look for clues and construct incredibly convoluted theories based on, for example, contradictions of the text, which probably are exactly what they seem. ASOIAF is a rather interesting piece of literature, with so many POVs and a complex story and history. There’s so much to analyze there that I wouldn’t even know where to begin. Instead… they look for clues for their theories of “what’s gonna happen next!”… because apparently that’s all that matters. There is a place for this kind of analysis, of course… it’s just sad that it seems to be the only kind of analysis that there is.

      I follow a blog about bloody Adventure Time that has a more in-depth outlook on this than most ASOIAF blogs. They do have their “what’s gonna happen” theories, but they also analyze the show on its terms, as an art-piece.

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    112. Luka Nieto,

      … which is why, by the way, good Unsullied reviews of the show are much more interesting than those who simply compare the show to the books, whether they are aware that is what they’re doing or not.

      For example: “Stannis’ end was rushed”, they claim… it’s left unsaid they feel this way because of the book, in which he is still very much alive. In the show’s own terms, there’s nothing rushed about his death, and for those who can’t see why they decided to not show most of the battle, if they think it was just because of budget… I wouldn’t know what to tell them. Well, yes I would: “You have the tonal blindness of Jackson’s The Battle of the Five Armies.”

      Meanwhile, many Unsullied reviews had lots to say about his death, not as a checkpoint “Good/Bad” analysis of the scene but as a piece of art to analyze in comparison to other works of art. I learnt so much from those critiques. What did I learnt from the others? Opinions of individuals I don’t even know and factual comparisons to the source material. Oh so fascinating. Reviews should be more than “I LIKE THIS” or “I DON’T LIKE THIS”, especially for a TV show —These are not movie reviews, in which critics are recommending whether you should go to the cinema to see it or not. Most of these reviews spoil the episode and assume you’ve watched it, which means they have the opportunity to truly go in-depth into the episode. If all these reviewers can offer is their opinion and nothing else, it’s a worthless review, and certainly not a critique of any kind.

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    113. Luka Nieto,

      The fandom hardly lacks for analysis of the books’ themes. Indeed, I’d say that at this point the published books have been analyzed in that regard to the point where most hardcore fans no longer have much to say about them, which is also why (as with every fandom) focus gradually shifts more and more to worldbuilding and minutiae. It’s been ten years since we’ve had any new Sam material, for instance; I’ve long since run out of anything new to say about him until we see more from his story. Conversely, virtually all of the recent new material has been primarily focused on the history of the world, so it should hardly be surprising that that dominates fan discussions.

      Luka Nieto:
      For example: “Stannis’ end was rushed”, they claim… they don’t say that this is a feeling that arises in comparison to the book, in which he is still very much alive. In the show’s own terms, there’s nothing rushed about his death

      I disagree. I don’t think the show did a very good job at all of handling his downfall, which was definitely rushed and the circumstances of it not conveyed very convincingly (particularly in the final episode, where the chain of misfortunes comes so fast it’s basically comedic).

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    114. Robb Snow:
      Broken Wolf,

      Is this a joke? You do realize that Sean Bean, Julian Glover, Jonathan Pryce, Diana Rigg, and Charles Dance were all in Bond films, right? Bean, Glover, and Pryce were Bond villains and Diana Rigg was a Bond girl. So of all the reasons Mikkelsen wouldn’t be cast, being in a Bond film is definitely not one of them.

      Holy cow, I just watched the YouTube-clip where Diana discusses OHMSS, Garlic and George Lazenby – and there’s a insert from the movie (where she confronts 007 with a gun), and I just now realized that back in the day, she looks a LOT like Natalie Dormer. That’s SCARY good casting..

      As for this article, so we know that the season will begin filming in July. This means one thing: Sets are already being built. Sue! Send your Northern Irish headhunters out to find them!

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    115. Luka Nieto,

      Seeing as I don’t think that it’s meant to be (or should be) comedic, that’s a weakness in the storytelling.

      Mel abandoning Stannis and Selyse’s whiplash-inducing turnaround aren’t convincing either, and the battle scene lead up/aftermath is nonsensical.

      The overall impression is the writers straining at the leash to get this plot over with.

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    116. Nymeria Warrior Queen: While I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iron Islands in the books, one of the things which stuck with me is Euron is one of those men who is so good-looking it should be illegal. Mads is a fascinating looking man, and not unattractive, but he is not over-the-top good-looking, imo. That said, there are plenty of characters in the show who do not look at all like I imagined them when I was reading the books, but the actors portraying the characters won me over with their great work.

      100% agree

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    117. Sean C.,

      My experience has been that only a minority of on-line fans discuss SoI&F (or any of these “hit” series) as literature. The current “purist” vs. “adaptationist” debates simply recast stuff about which were arguing, say, 16 years ago when people argued about whether Robb Stark was the Hero of the Story. Those of us looking at it from the point of view that this is a novel (or series of novels) pointed out that this was impossible for several reasons. And although nobody predicted the Red Wedding per se, more than one person noted that it was implausible that Robb was going to live much longer simply because of the type of character he was. The Robbettes (I do not remember if we actually called them that or if that is just the name I use for them years later) typically dismissed all of these arguments as basically meaningless on the grounds that, in the end, no story was anything more than the sum of all of its details.

      That is only one case: but the two different views (“forest” vs. “14532 trees”) exists in all of the fandoms. Indeed, one of the easiest ways to bait the latter types among the Tolkienistas is to toss out the line that Lord of the Rings is a story about Death and Immortality: they would charge in almost everytime!

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    118. Wimsey,

      You have a very particular notion of what discussing the series “as literature” means.

      There are always people who are fixated on minor changes, but the details of a story matter, and many of the show’s story lines suffer because of a lack of attention to them.

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    119. Sean C.,

      No, I really do not. I mean discussing SoI&F or any other story/series of stories as you would discuss any literature: type of story, themes, types of character development, etc. That is, discuss Thrones just like you would discuss Narrow Road to the Deep North.

      (I used the Robbette example simply because it jumped to mind.)

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    120. Sean C.: How is debating the nature of Robb’s role not discussing the series “as literature”?

      It was, for those of us discussing it as such. It wasn’t, for those people just looking at it as a documentary: they deemed literary models irrelevant. (But then they were!)

      But the “I really do not” refers to the fact that I do not have a “particular” view of discussing literature. I have a very typical and general view about it that includes many things, which happens to include most of the same things that everyone who adapts books or plays for TV or film has.

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    121. Ravyn,

      I thought that Martin himself had described Arya as his second favorite character in some interview or other, but I could never find that interview again when I wanted to.

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    122. Wimsey:
      Sean C.,

      My experience has been that only a minority of on-line fans discuss SoI&F (or any of these “hit” series) as literature.The current “purist” vs. “adaptationist” debates simply recast stuff about which were arguing, say, 16 years ago when people argued about whether Robb Stark was the Hero of the Story.Those of us looking at it from the point of view that this is a novel (or series of novels) pointed out that this was impossible for several reasons.And although nobody predicted the Red Wedding per se, more than one person noted that it was implausible that Robb was going to live much longer simply because of the type of character he was.The Robbettes (I do not remember if we actually called them that or if that is just the name I use for them years later) typically dismissed all of these arguments as basically meaningless on the grounds that, in the end, no story was anything more than the sum of all of its details.

      That is only one case: but the two different views (“forest” vs. “14532 trees”) exists in all of the fandoms.Indeed, one of the easiest ways to bait the latter types among the Tolkienistas is to toss out the line that Lord of the Rings is a story about Death and Immortality: they would charge in almost everytime!

      Is that why you seemingly hate AFFC so much? Because instead of tending your forest, GRRM planted a new one that you refuse to this day to admit matters? It appears to me that the “Robbettes” were wrong about a specific tree but closer to right than you were about the nature of the forest that GRRM has now given us. AFFC does not seem to fit into the story model you were advocating 16 years ago, or you seem to insist on today – that the story revolve around a very limited number of protagonists, now matter how implausible this is in a world of hundreds of millions of people.

      And LotR was about a soft form of neo-Ludditism and the nature of divine miracles. Just saying.

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    123. Dame of Mercia: but hopefully without belittling people who do like the show – or enjoy both show and books.

      I’ve hardly seen anyone anywhere belittle people who like the show. I just went through the ~500 odd posts in the two “A Murder of Crows” threads, using my browser to search for negative words like “hate” or “whin”. There are about forty or so posts from around 30 individuals where people are insulting or belittling “purists” (which is used 83 times on those two threads, though some are in quotations or responses), but I didn’t really see any of the reverse. There might be one or two, but they are not many.

      If the significant plot holes and deviations from the source don’t bother you, that’s fine. You are perfectly entitled to prefer chocolate to vanilla. Please just understand that until this season, we had a wonderful vanilla-chocolate chip that made us both happy, and now we have chocolate double-fudge that you love but I (and many others) do not. We are perfectly entitled to criticize the change, just as we are perfectly entitled to dream about our 100% organic natural vanilla dream cream that we will never, ever have (on screen, at least).

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    124. Chad Brick: It appears to me that the “Robbettes” were wrong about a specific tree but closer to right than you were about the nature of the forest that GRRM has now given us.

      No, the Robbettes were completely wrong. They did not think that this was a story about character evolution: the argument that Robb couldn’t be a hero because stories with Heroes and stories with protagonists are fundamentally different types of tales didn’t mean much to them. Their

      Chad Brick: AFFC does not seem to fit into the story model you were advocating 16 years ago, or you seem to insist on today – that the story revolve around a very limited number of protagonists, now matter how implausible this is in a world of hundreds of millions of people.

      Of what relevance is that? Protagonists deliver story: fundamentally, all modern stories are about some crisis of identity in protagonists. (Martin himself is big on the internal conflict aspect of this, but that is only one of many aspects of identity crisis.) The SoI&F stories are about how Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Theon, Catelyn, etc., wrestle with whether they are one thing or another antithetical thing: and all of the other characters exist to put them into positions where they can do that.

      And the reasons why I disliked Crows was because it failed to deliver a coherent story: it watered down the narrative with too many non-protagonist PoVs (to the point where it was difficult to tell who was protagonist and who was there to develop a new protagonist) and too many protagonists who delivered the same story as another protagonist. Indeed, I could understand the reviews stating that it was almost like someone else wrote it (which was the source of the rumors that it was ghost written 10 years ago). GRRM was never Hemingway: but the difference between Thrones – Swords GRRM and Crows GRRM was the difference between Hemingway and Thrones-Swords GRRM.

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    125. Really interesting short essay by Stephen R. Donaldson on the importance of “epic fantasy”:
      http://www.nyrsf.com/2015/03/fantasy-is-the-most-intelligent-precise-and-accurate-means-of-arriving-at-the-truth-s-p.html

      Wimsey will probably enjoy this the most (though he has probably already read it). 🙂 Donaldson doesn’t speak directly about aSoIaF, but his description of Erikson’s Malazan Book of the Fallen (which I have yet to read) seems to touch on many of the same themes (and in a similar style) as GRRM.

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    126. Chad Brick,

      Really? I mean, really? Then I’m pretty sure you haven’t read the countless of condescening comments about “show apologists” in Westeros.org…

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    127. Mads is great, but he can’t be Euron. His accent isn’t like the one of Balon or Yara or Theon. He could be Mance or someone else from north of the Wall. Varamyr maybe.

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    128. Luka Nieto: On a more personal level, it’s saddening to find so many blogs that analyze the books as if they were historical documents instead of a fictional construct made by an imperfect human — They look for clues and construct incredibly convoluted theories based on, for example, contradictions of the text, which probably are exactly what they seem.

      Sad or not, I truly appreciate the wikis and blogs that have tirelessly documented the world for me so that when I forget who a tertiary character is or forget any of a thousand details (which happens to me all too often), I have those details at my fingertips. I also enjoy theorizing for the sake of theorizing, even though I’m going to get it wrong most of the time. Different strokes for different folks, innit? But when folks start tearing down different folks for these differences (e.g., E&L dissing D&D), then that is sad indeed.

      For example: “Stannis’ end was rushed”, they claim… it’s left unsaid they feel this way because of the book, in which he is still very much alive.

      This happens all the time, right? Perhaps this moment really was insufficient, but the Sullied never feel the need to support these claims with evidence because the fact that it is different from the books is presumed to be proof enough.

      Another example is when Cian, who admittedly didn’t even realize that he was reviewing from the perspective of a reader, said:

      This brings me to the conclusion of my criticism of Jon’s arc. “For the Watch” was doomed from the start of the season, when the only recognisable faces of possible mutineers were Thorne’s and Olly’s. Othell Yarwyck? He has had a pittance of lines, and no one can be expected to remember him. Bowen Marsh – who? Olly, the boy who has been telegraphing he was going to kill Jon all season?

      The Unsullied must have been perplexed here as to why Yarwyck and Marsh should have been the traitors rather than those who were setup as traitors in the show. Why is replacing Yarwyck and Marsh with Olly and Thorne bad? No evidence whatsoever is given because the presumption is that being different from the books is enough: Q.E.D.

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    129. I know but let me enjoy the fantasy that Mads could star in GoT while I still can.I know the chances are extremly low but I just hope every year.

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    130. Chad Brick: I’ve hardly seen anyone anywhere belittle people who like the show. I just went through the ~500 odd posts in the two “A Murder of Crows” threads, using my browser to search for negative words like “hate” or “whin”. There are about forty or so posts from around 30 individuals where people are insulting or belittling “purists” (which is used 83 times on those two threads, though some are in quotations or responses), but I didn’t really see any of the reverse. There might be one or two, but they are not many.

      Hypocrisy is a boil. Lancing a boil is never pleasant…

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    131. Ravyn,

      he has always said he is going to honor the commitments he made a while ago…only things he cancelled were the two convention appearances that related directly to show promotion…all his book only related stuff he is still doing

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    132. Simeon:
      Really interesting short essay by Stephen R. Donaldson on the importance of “epic fantasy”:
      http://www.nyrsf.com/2015/03/fantasy-is-the-most-intelligent-precise-and-accurate-means-of-arriving-at-the-truth-s-p.html

      Wimsey will probably enjoy this the most (though he has probably already read it). Donaldson doesn’t speak directly about aSoIaF, but his description of Erikson’s Malazan Book of the Fallen (which I have yet to read) seems to touch on many of the same themes (and in a similar style) as GRRM.

      Don´t ever, EVER mention the name *Steven Erikson* in aSoIaF book fetishist cycles. They go absolutely ballistic if you dare compare MBotF to aSoIaF.

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    133. flintwielder: Don´t ever, EVER mention the name *Steven Erikson* in aSoIaF book fetishist cycles. They go absolutely ballistic if you dare compare MBotF to aSoIaF.

      LOL! Ten book series – began in 1999, finished in 2011. I can see why this would drive aSoIaF “fetishists” crazy… with jealousy. I’ve always heard mostly good things about it, so maybe I’ll finally start that series… probably be able to comfortably finish it before WoW appears.

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    134. Chad Brick: If the significant plot holes and deviations from the source don’t bother you, that’s fine. You are perfectly entitled to prefer chocolate to vanilla. Please just understand that until this season, we had a wonderful vanilla-chocolate chip that made us both happy, and now we have chocolate double-fudge that you love but I (and many others) do not.

      I did not put in my earlier post that people were not entitled to an opinion; I did say I hoped they would not express such opinion in a way that belittled folk having a different point of view. I think both the books and the show have their good points and their bad points – more good than bad – and I have said on more than one occasion (on other threads than this obviously) that I am grateful to GRRM for providing the source material. I know that you were only using chocolate and fudge as examples but I hate chocolate ice-cream and am not that fond of fudge, but please don’t presume to know what I “love”. I have said that I like both show and books – I haven’t said I loved either. Maybe you did not intend for it to sound condescending but saying “If the significant plot holes and deviations from the source don’t bother you, that’s fine.” sounds to me as though you were demeaning my judgement. There have been changes from the novels which I haven’t particularly liked – others that I have not minded so much. I don’t look at the westeros.org site that much these days but I have come across the expression “show apologists” there.

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    135. Simeon,

      Donaldson and GRRM are of the same vein in many ways: if you cut away the magic, etc., then you’d have stories that could be well-received novels in general. Donaldson tends to go much darker psychologically than GRRM does: whereas GRRM revels in what people do when they are given a bad choice and a worse choice; Donaldson revels in creating people who are almost incapable of seeing anything but bad choices!

      If you have never read the Thomas Covenant series, then I heartily urge you to do so. It’s dark and depressing as all get out, but really provoking in many ways.

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    136. Wimsey,
      I tried the Thomas Covenant series, didn’t get very far and gave up during the first book. I found it really ponderous rather than bleak/depressing, which is just my opinion of course!

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    137. igorcarvalho,

      Since Mads Mikkelsen has been such a huge fan favourite for Euron for many years now, and since he is now apparantly avaliable, I see it as quite likely, that they would try to cast him. BUT, I don’t think he’s right for the part.
      Don’t get me wrong he looks exactly like Euron, can play both menacing, mad and creepy really, really well. I am Dane, so I’ve seen most of his work and he’s a brilliant actor. But he CANNOT do an english accent, like Coster Waldau (who has got to be a linguistic genious, because it’s impossible to hear that he’s actually Danish). Really Mads is extremely bad at it, his Danish accent shine through to the point, that it would be impossible to believe that he’s a native Iron Islander. As much as I know he would otherwise nail the part, I really hope they choose someone else. Otherwise I want them to explain it somehow. Maybe Euron has been significantly changed through use of Shade of The Evening or something. Or maybe his travels has just altered his accent. So yeah, I’m conflicted. Would be awsome to have another Danish actor on the show after Qothor, Karsi and Jamie, but I am just worried that it will be impossible to connect him with westeros. I hope I’m wrong though!

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    138. I had the Mazalan series recommended to me over a year ago but haven’t got round to it yet – if it’s as dark as Wimsey says I’ll have to wait a while before tackling it; I’m still getting over all the deaths in GoT this season (even though I knew some were coming – not EVERYTHING was changed from the books) so think I’ll do some light reading for the time being. As for TV, well I hear “Clangers” is coming back to the BBC – that’s for the kiddiwinks of course.

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    139. Wimsey: If you have never read the Thomas Covenant series, then I heartily urge you to do so. It’s dark and depressing as all get out, but really provoking in many ways.

      Oh, yes. I read the original trilogy long ago and the newer books as they’ve come out. His books seems to leave very little middle ground. Either you love them or you can’t stand them (I loved them). Although there have been attempts over the years to create a film adaptation, I think it would be incredibly difficult, considering how much of the story is driven by the internal psychological conflicts. Uh oh… I might be a Donaldson book purist… the horror! 😉

      The Malazan books are still on my “to read” list, however, which seems to grow over time rather than shrink.

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    140. Dame of Mercia,

      I don’t dare start the Malazan series. Apparently it is enormously long and enormously complicated, to the point that ASoIaF looks simple and restrained. At least that’s what I heard.

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    141. Wimsey: If you have never read the Thomas Covenant series, then I heartily urge you to do so. It’s dark and depressing as all get out, but really provoking in many ways.

      ++!! Any mention of my fav dead-then-alive-then-dead-then-undead anti-hero white gold wielder gets me all aflutter! Nothing gets a fantasy going like rape, self-loathing and intense depression! Halfhand lepers rule! I’m rather surprised that you detest AFfC if you have read The One Tree. 🙂

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    142. Hodor’s Bastard: I’m rather surprised that you detest AFfC if you have read The One Tree.

      What was wrong with “The One Tree”? That had one of my all-time favorite moments in the series:

      “Nom.”

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    143. Simeon,

      Ah! Yes..it had “moments” but sandwiched between the great Wounded Land and White Gold Wielder I can’t help but compare it’s seafaring meandering and TC’s mental meandering to the post-war meandering within AFfC, which Wimsey has been exceptionally negative about. Regardless of the various storytelling critiques out there, I will defend the many awesome moments within AFfC as well! 🙂

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    144. Rygar: Nope.Just sexy and an amazing penis. And it just so happens…..

      If you think a man who was sexually abusing his younger brother (Aeron) “sexy, and with an amazing penis” then that’s pretty f#cked up IMO..

      Rygar,

      Hmmmm… Sexy an amazing penis? If you call sexually abusing his younger brother (Aeron) sexy, with an amazing penis then that is pretty fucked up IMO

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    145. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Maybe that’s how you interpreted his description, but it certainly isn’t how I interpreted it.I remember handsome, black hair, pale, and the eye not covered by a patch being sky-blue.Now, the bluish tint to his lips from drinking Shade of the Evening doesn’t sound overly appealing, but pale, black hair, and blue eyes (or in his case, eye) sounds perfect, at least to me.Then again, men who are pale with black hair and blue eyes (or in Euron’s case, eye) have always been my weakness.

      He about paedophiles? Because he was sexually abusing his younger brother Aeron.

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    146. Cameryn: Seriously. Do the people from westeros.org have anything better to do with their time than laud GRRM’s novels as the next best thing to the Bible and condemn GoT as nothing short of dogshit? Because honestly, to those who haven’t drank the ASOIAF kool-aid, that’s how they come across over there. It’s self-important fan entitlement run amok.

      Fine. We get it. You’re unhappy. Stop watching the damn show then. Honestly.

      So true!

      But I’m sure Linda and Ellio will be back next year…

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    147. Davos’ Luck:
      Chad Brick,

      Really? I mean, really? Then I’m pretty sure you haven’t read the countless of condescening comments about “show apologists” in Westeros.org…

      And I am sure you would be able to cite them. Point me to the thread which has one posted in the last 24 hours.

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    148. Wimsey: No, the Robbettes were completely wrong.They did not think that this was a story about character evolution: the argument that Robb couldn’t be a hero because stories with Heroes and stories with protagonists are fundamentally different types of tales didn’t mean much to them.Their

      Of what relevance is that?Protagonists deliver story: fundamentally, all modern stories are about some crisis of identity in protagonists.(Martin himself is big on the internal conflict aspect of this, but that is only one of many aspects of identity crisis.)The SoI&F stories are about how Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime, Theon, Catelyn, etc., wrestle with whether they are one thing or another antithetical thing: and all of the other characters exist to put them into positions where they can do that.

      And the reasons why I disliked Crows was because it failed to deliver a coherent story: it watered down the narrative with too many non-protagonist PoVs (to the point where it was difficult to tell who was protagonist and who was there to develop a new protagonist) and too many protagonists who delivered the same story as another protagonist.Indeed, I could understand the reviews stating that it was almost like someone else wrote it (which was the source of the rumors that it was ghost written 10 years ago).GRRM was never Hemingway: but the difference between Thrones – Swords GRRM and Crows GRRM was the difference between Hemingway and Thrones-Swords GRRM.

      My point was about your somewhat stubborn insistence as to who the protagonists are, and your rejection of any new ones. For example, you list Jaime but not Cersei, even though they have had similar numbers of POV chapters. Why? Because Cersei’s didn’t begin until AFFC? Davos has had a similar number of chapters, and Brienne is getting there. Asha and Arienne and new and trending and especially the latter seems likely to get into full-blown protagonist mode. All of these characters have their own arcs and sufficient pages devoted to them to explore them, and they matter. Rob may have died, but it was certainly possible that he could have received the same treatment as Cersei, only receiving POVs and a stronger centralization of his status well into the series.

      I recently read a book with six fully-developed protagonists in the space of 550 pages. Why should ASOIAF be limited to half a dozen over the span of 8000 pages? We’ve got around 250 pages from Davos’s perspective and nearly 200 from Brienne’s, for example. That’s as long as a lot of short novels. Why are they not on your list?

      Likewise, there is nothing wrong with protagonists disappearing for a while. Sansa has only gotten three chapters in the last two books because, well, not a lot happened to her in the year or so those two books represent. The idea that the heroes of the story will always be in some exciting, dangerous, or intriguing situation rather than just living a normal or stable period of their life is flawed. GRRM forcing some intrigue onto he just to keep her in the story is not good writing. She should be written about when interesting things happen to her organically based on the overall story, not at some fixed interval that has nothing to do with the pace of things worth writing about.

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    149. GeekFurious,

      I agree that Season 5 of LOST was very strong. Season 4 was also decent, but a little hamstrung by the Writer’s Strike. Season 6 would have been better but for the flash-sideways, which were saccharine, unnecessary and un-nuanced.

      There is a great fan-edit which removes the flash-sideways from Season 6, and is all the better for it.

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    150. Oh, and you are right. GRRM is definitely not Hemingway, whose prose is exceptionally terse. As much as I have enjoyed some of Hemingway’s novels, I am glad GRRM does not write that way.

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    151. Chad Brick: My point was about your somewhat stubborn insistence as to who the protagonists are, and your rejection of any new ones. For example, you list Jaime but not Cersei, even though they have had similar numbers of POV chapters. Why? Because Cersei’s didn’t begin until AFFC?

      Because Cersei is an antagonist? That would be my answer, but I’m not sure what Wimsey will say.

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    152. Sean C.,

      I thought Stannis’ end was wonderfully literary. Betrayed three times. And then the consequences of his first kin-slaying, the wrath of the vengeful Brienne of Tarth, results in his final demise. And somehow, accepting his death honorably in the snow, he is somewhat redeemed…

      Most TV shows don’t come even close to that level of subtlety and literary quality. Fans need to put their book goggles away, and do some real analysis.

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    153. ArgonathofBraavos:
      Sean C.,

      I thought Stannis’ end was wonderfully literary. Betrayed three times. And then the consequences of his first kin-slaying, the wrath of the vengeful Brienne of Tarth, results in his final demise. And somehow, accepting his death honorably in the snow, he is somewhat redeemed…

      Most TV shows don’t come even close to that level of subtlety and literary quality. Fans need to put their book goggles away, and do some real analysis.

      The King is reluctantly convinced by a 100% totally real prophet that he is the One, destined to save the world. The King sets forth on his quest, overcoming many obstactles and culminating in allowing the prophet to sacrifice of his own daughter to the Gods when all hope is lost.

      Then the Gods abandon him, a bunch of his sell-swords steal all the horses and run because an opportunity opens and the prophet skips town for a younger guy, leading the King to decide that he should suicide himself and his remaining faithful troops. Just before he dies, someone abandons her oaths to the living and kills the King for having killed a traitor a long time ago, transforming herself into a kingslaying hypocrite. The end.

      Somehow, I doubt such a book would sell well.

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    154. Chad Brick:
      Oh, and you are right. GRRM is definitely not Hemingway, whose prose is exceptionally terse. As much as I have enjoyed some of Hemingway’s novels, I am glad GRRM does not write that way.

      Oh, Chadster…trying to tell us that Martin is better than Hemingway ? Shit, we should nominate Martin for the next Literature Nobel Prize !!
      Luuulz.

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    155. flintwielder: Oh, Chadster…trying to tell us that Martin is better than Hemingway ? Shit, we should nominate Martin for the next Literature Nobel Prize !!
      Luuulz.

      No, I am saying that Hemingway’s style would not be appropriate for a fantasy novel. It’s pretty much impossible to argue that one good author is “better” than another anyway.

      It’s Haruki Murakami that I think deserves the Nobel, btw. His writing is incredibly distinctive (both in its native language and when translated into English, at least) and his book releases are major events in Japan. He’s by far their most popular author, and sells incredibly well abroad as well. I was totally tickled pink the other day when I was going over a grammar lesson with my Japanese instructor and I recognized a short Murakami essay about pencil sharpeners for what it was. She was quite surprised that I could pick that up. Me too, actually.

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    156. Simeon,

      Well, the first 7 books are really good. A little slow at times, but worth the time. The last three are the question marks for me. Part of the problem was that Erikson stopped including a glossary, which left me lost more than once.

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    157. Mr Fixit,

      That it is, which is why I hesitate before recommending it.

      Describing the Malazan series is like trying to describe a Japanese anime; trying to do so will only make you sound insane.

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    158. Chad Brick: And I am sure you would be able to cite them. Point me to the thread which has one posted in the last 24 hours.

      My quick&dirty Google search for the word ‘apologist’ on westeros.org in the last month yielded 52 hits. And that’s on just that one word. I imagine many many more are expressing the same attitudes without using it.

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