New Game of Thrones Season 7 Behind the Scenes Featurette on VFX — Daenerys on Drogon, and battle scenes on land and sea!

Dany Season 7 Inside GOT VFX

Exactly a week ago the first Inside Game of Thrones video for this season was released, focused on the costume department. Today, though still on the technical arts, we switch gears to the special effects — which have been an increasingly big deal in the show, as dragons only get bigger, magic only gets crazier, and battles only get grander.

Watch the video, which contains new footage from two battles, below the cut!

Much of what we see in this interview with special effects supervisor Sam Conway is from season six, but there is also a few behind the scenes clips from the two biggest and most publicized battles this coming season, one on land and the other at sea. You can see a ship on fire, as on the trailer; a ravaged battlefield; and Emilia Clarke dressed in full Queen Daenerys regalia mounted on what will eventually become Drogon.

190 responses

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    1. Now that’s how targaryen must look like ..
      NK can bring his storm all he want but we have Daenerys Jelmazmo

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    2. From his father’s work with Terry Gilliam (Monty Python) to his work with GoT. What an amazing progression! Stunning perspective.

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    3. It takes a lot of creativity to pull over off those visuals. Bravo!

      Side note: Last season, the three “Inside Game of Thrones” featurettes were about 1) the camera operators, 2) prosthetics, and 3) visual effects. This year, it’s 1) costume design and 2) special effects. I’m hoping the third Season 7 one will be about production design.

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    4. So glad the dragon riding effects looked good in S6

      Gotta admit, 5×09 was kinda cringey lol… It looked so fake.

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    5. I respect the level of work and dedication these guys put in ..
      That shot of the on in trailer and the lighting was so good..

      So I guess now we know what dany actually wears

      When she goes for the wight hunt north of the wall..she may not get cold because she is with drogon

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    6. HelloThere,

      It was mostly due to the mounting, which wasn’t convincing at all, and the fixed camera during the flight, which made it look like a 2D slideshow. In season six, Dany mounting Drogon was much more realistic, and they spent some money in making the Drogon rig more dynamic, especially in relation to the camera.

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    7. HelloThere,

      Yeah the season 5 dragon riding was pretty poor. In fact in my opinion it may have been the worst special effects in the show’s run. But they definitely fixed it because the season 6 dragon riding was really amazing and actually looked a lot like some of the artwork that has been done about this story and world.

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    8. Luka Nieto: they spent some money in making the Drogon rig more dynamic

      I still love the video when Emilia talks about riding that rig for the Meereen battle. How during filming she’s “just sitting on this thing going ‘WOOHOO!!’ and then I see the episode and think, oh shit, I’m a badass!” 🙂

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    9. mau,

      Yea, I defended that scene a lot in season 5, because I knew they were operating on a TV show budget, and it was their first time doing it..
      But they nailed to so amazingly in Season 6, so know I can fully admit 5×09 looked corny as hell, lol.

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    10. Luka Nieto,

      Luka:

      You guys are spoiling us!
      Whoever thought the S6-S7 hiatus would result in a drought of news underestimated the intrepid staff of WoW. Thank you all!

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    11. Clob,

      That And the BtS scene of dany on top of drogon speaking to dothraki and just rambling meaningless words..
      Then again is there any video she is not adorable

      Luka Nieto,
      Yes they definitely improved on the camera side ..I believe benioff talked about it in BTS video ..

      At osuna i don’t remember exactly but I believe there was some weather problems which damaged the green screen and etc..
      I mainly joke people should blame hardhome for poor daznak pit scene..

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    12. dragonbringer,

      She has gloves on as well, and fur lining. Gotta say that dress looks amazing with the wind in it, it seems like some sort of velvety, shiny material. Awesome stuff, fit for a Queen !
      Winter is here and Dany’s bringing the heat, get HYPED !!

      Thanks for the post Luka !

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    13. Ten Bears,

      Come on… it really wasn’t. The special effects in GOT are amazing, especially for a TV show, but they are not at the Hollywood blockbuster level (though, of course, there are some awful exceptions.) You may be more immersed in the world and the characters and that will make it feel more real, but the VFX artists working for GOT would be the first to admit they don’t reach those heights, not because of a lack of talent but because of a limited budget.

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    14. Ten Bears,

      After Arya faces the undead…

      wight #1: “It’s only a flesh wound!”
      wight #2: “Let’s call it a draw.”
      wight #3: “Come back here, I’ll bite your legs off!”

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    15. HelloThere,

      But the fact that they had more money last year changes nothing when it comes to S5. Lol

      It was the best that they could have done. Just like how the Blackwater looks so poor compared to the Battle of the Bastards..

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    16. Hey,if anyone wants to see how shitty special effects can look,watch the video of that “deer” from last season of the Walking Dead,keep in mind that this show has the biggest ratings on tv,bigger than GOT and their special effect look like something from one of those garbage Direct to DVD Uwe Boll movies .

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    17. Luka Nieto,

      I watched The Hobbit: BotFA again somewhat recently… I hadn’t noticed as much when I initially saw it how horrendous some of the cgi is in that movie. Completely, ridiculously fake looking for many things during the battle. Certain things are just really hard to do and that film was full of them I guess.

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    18. In season 5, it was their first try with dragon riding. They completely changed how to do it in season 6, and it’s so much more realistic.

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    19. Clob,

      As I said, the fact that GoT doesn’t have limitless budget is a good thing, because that is forcing them to use practical effects and be more creative.

      Can you imagine CGI White Walkers or Children of the Forest?

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    20. Boojam,

      Where would she get it,would she magically pull it out of her ass like Euron did in the books,hey guys i happen to have a Valyrian armor from out of nowhere,ok !

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    21. HelloThere,

      I thought it looked fine. TV budget or not. But season 6 effects were great and season 7 should be even better.

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    22. Gucci Robert,

      It’s been a while since I read the books, but my vague recollection is that Euron boasted about walking among the ruins in Old Valyria. Isn’t that where he claimed he found the dragon horn?

      Since the horn hasn’t made it into the series, I don’t know that the armor will either. (Or has there already been a reference to it, and I’ve forgotten?)

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    23. Boojam,

      She wont be sitting out of a fight. She is going into battle but not going to wear any armor like last season.. My only guess is they are saving it for season 8

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    24. ramses,

      She definitely needs some defensive something, but can you imagine how much body heat Drogon emanates? She’d be scorching hot in armor!

      Oh, wait. She doesn’t feel heat, does she? 😉

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    25. Wolfish,

      AHH. I had the exact same thought process about that.

      *she can’t wear armor, she’ll cook. No she won’t, she is impervious to heat and fire*

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    26. Production value of this show is off the charts. Hopefully many of these incredibly talented people wil continue with future prequels.

      dragonbringer,

      Leaks.

      Easy there. Night King is a whole different level, He might be immune to any kinda of fire, even by dragons. We know he can kill a dragon, see things in visions and resurrect corpses.

      Dany wears a fur.

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    27. It must so exciting for Emilia to watch herself riding a dragon. I bet she’d like to ride a real one. I certainly would.

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    28. Geralt of Rivia,

      leaks

      Yes!

      I feel like killing the WW with dragon fire would be too easy. Otherwise, what’s the point of Valyrian steel and dragonglass? You can just use dragons, fireballs, flaming arrows…

      The NK and most of his generals (we still don’t know the exact numbers here) usually hide behind the wight army. As we’ve seen at Hardhome and the 3ER’s cave, the NK sends his wight army to do most of the work, then a general or two and he only appears until later to finish off the job. The dragons can get rid of a number of wights provided they don’t get overpowered by the sheer number of arrows and spears thrown at them, but you’ll also need good fighters armed with dragon glass and VS to get to the WW themselves. We also don’t know what other creatures the WW have revived (giants are a possibility).

      The NK is also a greenseer based on the show, which would explain how he shows up at the right time to attack and surprise everyone. So just because the Mother of Lizards is on the scene, that does not make all the other characters useless in the fight.

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    29. The visuals get better and better. I hope the people working on them continue to have great careers after GoT ends.

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    30. I love seeing the people who are doing the actual labor that creates this show.

      Sure, GRRM and D&D are the writers who write dialogue and ideas but these are the people on the ground making it happen.

      These people not only are the best at what they do but everyone of them I’ve seen in these videos seem so proud and happy to be doing what they are doing.

      I will say it 100 times, HBO needs to keep these people together, this whole team that brings GoTs to life needs to stay together and HBO just needs to hand them another assignment and let them work…

      HBO and D&D have a fined tuned machine here that needs to stay running and producing epics for us for years to come.

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    31. Absolutely incredible all the work they out into GOT, it must be a lot of hard work.

      Is it just me or does Dany’s outfit look like it has a slight reddish tone to it?

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    32. Mel: Is it just me or does Dany’s outfit look like it has a slight reddish tone to it?

      It does. It’s more obvious in other lighting.

      She has much more starkly red outfits later in the season though.

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    33. GOT looks amazing for a TV show but imagine what the next ASOIAF show will look like. Shots are getting rendered faster than ever. Lighting/shadows is at photo-realism levels. If HBO thinks the popularity will continue, and even grow, we may find GOT a very “small” story by comparison. There is no real limitation except how much HBO wants to spend per episode.

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    34. I just dont know where wotw have the information that this sea battle will be Big. Not even the leaks said will be a big battle, if this turns to have 5minutes of only battle i will be very surprised. I think we will have some scenes before the battle than the battle with 3 or 4 minutes and than a after batlle, but the battle itsef i don think by any chance will pass 4 or 5 minutes.

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    35. Geralt of Rivia,

      Where did I speak about dany battling NK alone or even fighting him ..there are number of ways one can weaken other forces for instance destroying the heart of winter …

      Besides isn’t that you who made the claim that dany will be the one to kill NK in the previous thread. ..what changed now …that it was me who said that and not you ..i have seen this very often from you trying to be a contrarion just for the sake of being one …

      And to the other comment I simply don’t want and have no interest in having a fan war now..but simply have to say this …
      Speaking about why introduce valyrain steel and dragonglass and their importance…
      Iam simply wondering the importance of one of the main protagonists who GRRM wanted to have a power and gave them one and made her unique in the story …

      I never said that once dany comes other characters useless …but its so easy understand the reason behind the hate dany gets because they think once dany mother of flying lizards and her flying lizards gets involved they feel like their favorite will be useless…its so pathetic ..

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    36. Luka Nieto,

      Just how many costumes is she going to be in. ..
      After the season ends We must make a list and see who had the most costumes in a single season ..

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    37. dragonbringer,

      Somehow I think Dany will win that competition hands down because not onkyndoes Dany have quite a few costumes, there is also quite a few variations with the costumes per the filming photos combined with all the releases photos

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    38. Mel,

      Yes would have loved to see the look on Margery if dany wins that one ..
      To be honest its getting tough to keep track of dany’s costumes and little variations in each and every one makes it more difficult ..
      I also love the fact that she is wearing a Dragon headpiece or something like that …don’t know how much it will featured in the coming season.

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    39. On first seeing the image of Dani sitting on the ‘Drogon’ rig, I wondered what the tapered horn pointing backwards was for. However, in the video its pretty obvious and with 3 of these horns blowing compressed air over Dani to give the effect of wind on her clothes which would happen of course if she was flying on a dragon’s back!

      Just incredible! These SFX guys think of everything 🙂

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    40. Flayed Potatoes,

      Leaks.

      Exactly those fireballs from CotF are magic, powered by the same magic that created WW’s and NK they just walked past by it. Valyrian steel swords Longclaw, Heartsbane, Widow’s Wail, Oathkeeper and Catspaw’s dagger has to play significant role. Lads or someone else said something about this that these swords are key.

      I think Brienne, Jaime, Arya and whoever will get Heartsbane are the ones that will go one on one with WW’s. Makes sense for our main protagonists to kill at least one of them with Valyrian steel swords.

      Night King sees things Bran can and has power of Three-eyed raven, besides being able to resurrect corpses of any kind uncluding dragon. I have to say my pet theory is that that dragonglass that was put into his heart might be the way to kill him. When it comes to regular WW’s I think just dragon fire would be easy to kill them. Dragons are needed mainly for wights because we have tons of them.

      Dragonglass can kill newly wights, can cure greyscale. This is how Jorah gets cured by Sam and who remembers that Stannis had ton of it on Dragonstone. Shireen had greyscale and they were able to cure it. Also, that WW’s are brothers of little Sam. Citadel seems pretty damn good.

      dragonbringer,

      Leaks.

      It sounds like Dany comes and Night King can sit on his ass. Dany being able to kill him is one thing but to be dominant/sit on your ass is the other.

      Drogon vs Viserion duel makes sense and it goes way back to Dany and Viserys, also Night King is essentially a slaver and Dany is the one who ended slavery in Slaver’s Bay. One of my reasons why she will be the one to ultimately bring him down but I’ve never said the only one to fight him. Bran has to play a part in it and probably Jon will with Rhaegal. Rhaegal is the weakest of them by that point. Drogon is bigger and Ice or Wight dragon might have stronger powers. We only known about Ice Dragon but it could in theory fit for Wight dragon. Wight dragon might take powers from Night King and CotF magic.

      I am just telling that Night King powers are going far beyond any of our heroes. Only together they can defeat him.

      About the importance of Valyrian steel swords and dragonglass. They’ve invented that dragonglass can kill wights. Otherwise our heroes would be fighting an impossible battle. We have number of main characters armed with Valyrian steel swords and don’t you think that it would make sense for them to go and used them on WW’s?

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    41. Luka Nieto,

      To be honest, I had just been watching “X-Men: Apocalypse” and had been thinking to myself how cheesy the movie’s CGI looked compared to GoT. Same thing w/ Interstellar and Star Wars: TFA.

      But yeah…I’m prejudiced. Maybe if Sandor Clegane piloted the Millenium Falcon I would’ve felt differently.

      (Meanwhile…I thought Sophie T was
      the best thing in X-M:A.)

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    42. Geralt of Rivia,

      Of course its going to be useful and those characters are going to play those parts using the means that are given to them ..

      iam simply against the idea that dragons can only used to kill wights and WW should be left for other characters to fight ..

      Like you say we haven’t seen the full power of NK and his entourage ..

      And dragons are most powerful and important than those swords and dragonglass ..so I would imagine them playing important roles as well..

      Just because dragons can kill the WW doesn’t mean it will be just a cake walk and easy …WW will have something on their sleeve to make it even and the fight more balanced..

      I don’t even think that NK needs to die but there is a chance become human again…ever since the leaks came out last year i said if it comes to battle then dany may unseat him from viserion to the ground where Jon will fight him and eventually take out the obsidian…

      At the end of season 7 we will know who is going to contribute most to fight against WW ..hopefully that should put dany’s role in the coming war at a position which will be hard to ignore no matter how hard it will be for some..

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    43. mau:
      GeekFurious,

      It can look better, but GoT will remain the best story about this world.

      It will be the ONLY story, actually. Don´t see Mr. Wild Cards finishing it.

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    44. Gucci Robert,

      I never said he would be the only one. There’s BRAN, Jaime, Brienne, Jorah, Tormund, maybe even Arya since she’s learned how to fight. Get over yourself.

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    45. I’ve had something on my mind for quite some time and I just have to let it out. Mind you, I am doing this even though I will probably get attacked by vicious hordes of trolls and have my honor besmirched like no other. OK here goes:

      Stannis is still alive.

      There I said it. The only piece of evidence officially confirming his kill was Roose’s comment to Ramsey, something in the vein of “do we know who struck the killing blow?” as if to say they found the body. Brienne also boasted about his death, but she could’ve been lying.

      My theory is this: Brienne dressed up a nearby dead body with Stannis’s garb, then transported Stannis to the inn outside of Winterfell where the friend of the old bird is nursing him back to health. She just couldn’t slaughter a beat dog, it’s not in her nature.

      That is all.

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    46. Wolfish,

      Yes I wonder if Bronn will head north. We haven’t seen any pictures of him this promotional cycle have we? Didn’t he say in season 1 he went beyond the Wall?

      And how could I forget about Sandor. Shame @ me. *rings bell*

      Wolfish,

      lmao

      “A man sees what he sees” – Ned

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    47. Flayed Potatoes,

      Yes, during the drinking game with Tyrion and Shae. A most curious detail. What on Earth (pardon, Planetos) would he have been doing up there? The Free Folk don’t have much use for sellswords. Of course, we have no idea (books or show) where he’s from, so it would be pretty wild if it turns out he’s got some knowledge of the North up his sleeve. Is it possible that he was born in the North, or even (gasp!) beyond the Wall? Or maybe, like a few hardy merchants and smugglers, made a trip to Hardhome at some point in his youth?

      On another note, since he saved Sandor’s life at the Blackwater when the latter faltered in the face of fire, it might be poetic to see Sandor save Bronn’s life if he falters in the face of ice. But first, we must get Jaime on the side of sanity…

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    48. Wolfish,

      Remember the Stark loyalist in S6 who is creepily lurking in the Inn room while Brienne and Pad are discussing business? Well, that was the guy who went and told the old bird to visit Sansa and we all know how that turned out. He feels remorse and will be getting somewhat of a redemption arc in S7 when he nurses Stannis back to health in Brienne’s stead. I have this on good authority from insiders in the production.

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    49. Flayed Potatoes,

      You never said it,but the way you fangirl after Jon is how it looks,like i said,get over it,whether you like it or not Dany is going to play a big part in the final act.

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    50. i cant wait to see ice spiders and ice dragons and how the hell they are going to deal with all this shit…i can think of a few strategies but i doubt anyone from westoros will think of them…like taking a stand at moat callin with some booby traps….if the wall comes down they might wanna consider it. nk and his crew dont like the water…or they would have made an effort to get to their little boat at hardholme….they might just be bad swimmers…but if its true…they could build a moat and fill it with oil from water to water.and set it of fire when they come…..they are very flammable i heard and they act ike lemmings …should be easily disposed of with little life lost.that and dragons they dont stand a chance…..the walkers on the other hand…they fight our heros…some win some lose….and end game is ice and fire….the nk is ice….daenarys is fire……jon snow is both….it could go either way. I think the nk is a stark, thats why the starks know winter is coming before anyone else.So maybe the ending is a choice?
      These thoughts are not spoilers btw…they are my own personal wild ideas.
      Regardless who wins the g0t…everyone is gonna lose that someone special, lets just hope humanity picks the right man/woman for the job…..you can call me sentimental…but i;d like to see something really good come from this ending …rant over

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    51. Flayed Potatoes,

      Totally agree. I had my doubts but it looks good for Sam’s arc.

      dragonbringer,

      Leaks.

      I am no against either but let’s it does work on them, all you gotta do is to fire from above and WW’s are gone. Wights can be reanimated but WW’s you need babies.

      Maybe some will be killed by dragon fire and some by Valyrian steel swordsa nd dragonglass. Craster had like what 100 sons, minus Little Sam that akes it 99 and Jon, Sam and Meera killed three of them. That makes it 96 of them.

      You mean like Bran warging into undead Viserion, Dany taking him out and Jon finishing it? I mean that would suggest Jon is toast because don’t think he’ll be able to go one on one agaist Night King and survive this.

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    52. Geralt of Rivia,

      Why not? It’s not known what it will take to kill the Night’s King, for example what will happen if he is attacked with a Valyrian Steel sword? And if the way to end all this is by removing the dragonglass from his chest, why can’t Jon be capable of doing it, if he gets close enough, especially if undead Viserion is incapacitated? I am not saying this is what will happen. But I don’t see how it’s so impossible for Jon to take him on and survive either.

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    53. Geralt of Rivia,

      It all comes down to giving more credit to NK and WW and Jon ..

      I believe Jon as one of the major protagonists will be capable of taking NK one on one ..

      I believe that NK and WW will have something up in their sleeve to combat Dragons… It won’t be just as easy as burning them down..

      We should not downplay the importance of dragons in the story just because right of now it seems so easy to finish WW using them ..we should hope that they will have an equal power ..

      Because Dany’s Dragons in ASoIaF is not equivalent to eagles of LOTr but equivalent to the Sword of Argaorn ..so dany’s magic and her dragons will have more prominent role than just burning up wights

      Dragons are key to create valrian steel and obsidians get activated after dany hatching them ..wildfire production only increases after dragons birth…
      While there are valyrian steel swords and obsidians and wildfire in plenty …there are only 3 dragons ..
      We have also need to remember that surprise element of valyran steel is out of the box now ..

      like I said I hope we get to see dany kill a Wight during the wight hunt ..
      And considering the people who are in the wight hunt and the number of valyran stell between them ..I expect more casualties of WW than in the past

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    54. I have no idea how/who/if the WW’s are defeated completely in the end. It’s all speculation and educated guessing…and it’s great fun to do.

      Here is my speculation:

      The NK seeks a Night Queen; perhaps he will be sated by this. He will agree to take what, if any, remains of his forces back north if those “south of the wall” provide him a queen.

      Should this be the case, then I say, “Bye, Sansa.” She can discard that bad wig and actually serve a purpose.

      You may fire at will…:)

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    55. Hodors Bastard,

      I think Terry Gilliam (and those working with him) pretty well pioneered the grungy look of almost everything decent in this genre since the 70s. His films look fantastic despite what was often a very low budget (for ‘Time Bandits’, they put the cameras at ‘dwarf height’, which also made sets look grander!). I remember reading somewhere that the crew behind John Boorman’s ‘Excalibur’ looked to ‘Monty Python and the Holy Grail’ and/or his Brueghel-ish ‘Jabberwocky’ for inspiration.

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    56. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      I’ve had something on my mind for quite some time and I just have to let it out. Mind you, I am doing this even though I will probably get attacked by vicious hordes of trolls and have my honor besmirched like no other. OK here goes:

      Stannis is still alive.

      There I said it. The only piece of evidence officially confirming his kill was Roose’s comment to Ramsey, something in the vein of “do we know who struck the killing blow?” as if to say they found the body. Brienne also boasted about his death, but she could’ve been lying.

      My theory is this: Brienne dressed up a nearby dead body with Stannis’s garb, then transported Stannis to the inn outside of Winterfell where the friend of the old bird is nursing him back to health. She just couldn’t slaughter a beat dog, it’s not in her nature.

      That is all.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Brienne’s entire arc since season 2 was to get revenge for the murder of Renly. So, now, according to you, when Brienne finally gets the chance to get her revenge on Stannis 3 season later, she just lets him go because he’s already been defeated in battle by the Boltons? She goes out of her way to swing her sword only to pretend to kill him? Why? How does that make any sense? Why would she just let him go? Why would she pretend to swing a sword at him?

      Brienne’s the most honorable person in the show, and you acknowledge this by claiming it’s the reason why she didn’t kill him, yet you also go on to say that she bragged about killing him even though you claim she didn’t. That’s not the actions of an honorable person. That’s the actions of a liar. Same goes for letting the murderer of Renly go unpunished. Again, these are not the actions of an honorable person. There’s no logical reason to believe that any of this happened.

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    57. Mr Derp,

      An honorable person doesn’t take pride in getting revenge on someone who is already wounded and beaten badly. It’s too easy.

      Go back and watch the scene. Brienne is clearly hesitant before she does the deed. She even hesitantly pulls the sword out of its scabbard, you can tell by the sound it makes. And just because she bragged about it, doesn’t mean she’s dishonorable. She didn’t want them holding out hope that Stannis was still alive so they’d commit to Jon / Sansa or she was letting off steam.

      Sorry but an early in the episode “death” of a major character that happens off screen with the executor showing clear hesitation — that just raises so many red flags for me. Plus, Mel’s prophecy always saw Stannis, I find it hard to believe that she was just mistaken and that it was Jon or whatever. George is too good of a plotter for that. If he isn’t alive, then I’m truly puzzled as to why D & D and Nutter handled it this way.

      It will be one of my finest hours on this board once I’m proven right after you all mocked me!

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    58. LatrineDiggerBrian: An honorable person doesn’t take pride in getting revenge on someone who is already wounded and beaten badly. It’s too easy.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      An honorable person also doesn’t let a murderer go free because punishment or retribution would be “too easy”.

      LatrineDiggerBrian: Brienne is clearly hesitant before she does the deed. She even hesitantly pulls the sword out of its scabbard, you can tell by the sound it makes.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      I went back and watched the scene. Brienne wasn’t hesitant at all. She was taken back when Stannis said “Go on, do your duty” because he was accepting the situation and didn’t fight it at all.

      LatrineDiggerBrian: And just because she bragged about it, doesn’t mean she’s dishonorable

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Yes, if she bragged about killing Stannis but actually didn’t kill him at all, then it would most certainly be dishonorable.

      LatrineDiggerBrian: Plus, Mel’s prophecy always saw Stannis, I find it hard to believe that she was just mistaken and that it was Jon or whatever.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Why is it hard to believe that Mel was mistaken?

      You’re not letting facts speak for themselves. You just want Stannis to still be alive so you’re cherry picking anything that would fit your beliefs. It’s the total opposite of what someone should do when looking for the truth. If you follow Stannis’ character arc it should be clear by the end of season 5 that he’s done.

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    59. LatrineDiggerBrian: Mel’s prophecy always saw Stannis, I find it hard to believe that she was just mistaken and that it was Jon or whatever.

      Perhaps she did only see Stannis initially. Perhaps she made many mistakes reading the flames. Perhaps R’hllor “changed (his) mind” after some time or maybe Stannis was just the tool he used for a certain purpose. Once that purpose was done he directed her on a new path.

      Remember that Melisandre has started to have difficulties in ADWD seeing what she wants to see or expects to see in the fires. She wants to see Stannis and all she sees is “snow,” or a wolf-faced boy and images with lots of skulls. Whatever is going to happen, even the books have begun to show that Stannis isn’t what she thought he is.

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    60. Mr Derp,

      Yep, I agree. I can’t see Stannis returning. Although the death blow from Brianne was not shown on screen, it was pretty obviously she finished him off. Recall she said to Catelyn after taking the oath to protect her, not to prevent her from taking revenge on Stannis for Renley’s death?

      However, It would be an interesting scenario if LatrineDiggerBrian was correct and Stannis really is still alive, but if so who would they get to play the part? Stephen Dillane was glad to depart from the show, saying he didn’t enjoy playing Stannis, was not into GoT and only did it – “For the money!”

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    61. Black Raven: However, It would be an interesting scenario if LatrineDiggerBrian was correct and Stannis really is still alive,

      Black Raven,

      Lol, yes, I wouldn’t rule anything out as impossible, but there’s just no narrative reason for Stannis to still be alive. His purpose was more of a cautionary tale than any kind of fulfillment of some prophesy.

      All this talk about Brienne being hesitant to kill Stannis as a reason for why he’s still alive is silly, at best. Ned was hesitant about killing Lady back in season 1 episode 2, so by that logic, Lady should still be alive too. However, I don’t see any conspiracy theories on that so far.

      The Stannis truthers are most likely just Stannis fans that don’t want to accept that his character is dead.

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    62. Mr Derp,

      We just completely disagree on all the major points, so we’ll see what happens. And no, I’m not one of these people that are obsessed with Stannis or that was upset with how he was handled on the show. I haven’t read the books, but I have no issue with his characterization on the show.

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    63. Clob,

      I haven’t read the books, but it would seem out of character of George to have Melisandre see one prophecy with the resolution to it being that she was simply mistaken. George is much better than that, unless he has a great reason for why she was confusing Stannis with Jon or someone else. In the end though, my hunch is that what she initially was correct, and she’s only confused now because she thinks Stannis is dead.

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    64. Mr Derp,

      Personally, I think he would’ve been more respectful of the time he had on GoT and talked about what a great experience it was, etc. To me, what he said, was another major red flag i.e. he’s lying big time to overcompensate for the secret.

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    65. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Iam curious how can you know what will GRRm do or won’t do when you haven’t read the books ..

      Can you ask your inside source and tell us what role will be stannis playing in the coming season after he gets his strength back ..

      Clob,

      She never really did see him right from the start she had been misreading it …them seeing Viserys death and assuming that’s stannis death is a clear example for this ..

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    66. LatrineDiggerBrian: I have this on good authority from insiders in the production.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      I’m confused. You always say that you avoid spoilers and don’t even watch the trailers, yet you were told from an inside source that Stannis would return?

      Which is it? Do you have inside sources that tell you spoilers or do you avoid them like you always claim?

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    67. dragonbringer,

      I haven’t read the books, but I’m familiar with his plotting through the adaptation. Is that so unreasonable? Plus I have read excerpts from the books and wikipedia to get a general idea of how he functions.

      Stannis will be healthy at the start of S7, and one of the first scenes of S7 will be him and Brienne squaring off. She may have had mercy on him, but she still wants revenge but will do it the honorable way. Stannis will defeat her but will show her the same mercy that she showed him. And then will begin Stannis redemption arc — which unfortunately will ultimately end with him once again succumbing to the dark side and allure of power. He will be the ruler that sits on the Iron Throne when all is said and done and with Melisandre at his side — it will truly be bitter sweet.

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    68. Mr Derp,

      Agreed… There’s been a few deaths which were not shown on screen; the Blackfish being another, but I have never doubted they didn’t happen.

      To believe Stannis is still alive is a crazy idea. The same for those hoping that LSH will appear in S7 – It just ain’t going to happen 😉

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    69. Is there some reason why my posts would be prevented if I’m using a different laptop than the one I usually use, or post from a spot where I’m traveling? I do travel several times a month, and sometimes use a smaller laptop to post. I’m not changing my log-on name or email, just the locations and sometimes the computer. Upstairs, downstairs, backyard. shouldn’t make a difference but it seems when I use a different laptop my posts get lost in never-land

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    70. Thronetender,

      This has happened to me too, though perhaps in a different way. I can post from my computer at work almost anytime, but none of my posts ever get through from my laptop at home. I’ve never gotten a response as to why that could happen, but whatever.

      Also, sometimes when I’m having trouble posting, the only post that ever gets through is the one stating that my posts aren’t getting through. It’s frustrating 🙁

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    71. LatrineDiggerBrian,
      I think you’d really have to read the books to understand why most people that have don’t believe Stannis is the PtwP or Azor Ahai or whatever. He’s not even a pov character while Davos is the main for most of that storyline. Stannis is not “the mannis,” he’s just a Baratheon that felt he should be king, not unlike his little brother.

      No, it isn’t “out of character” for George to write it. I’d first ask how you can decide what is or isn’t without having read the books. Bits and pieces and wiki isn’t the same thing. Next I’d ask why you think it is. It seems to me to be exactly like something he’d write… mainly because he actually has.

      The point is R’hllor doesn’t speak the words to Melisandre, “Stannis is the prince that was promised.” She translates what she sees in the flames. What the show has gone ahead and shown us is that she was mistaken in what she thought Stannis is, and the books are starting to do the same thing at a very similar point in the story. I believe Stannis was a tool for R’hllor’s plan, but it wasn’t what Mel thought. She makes mistakes. The show version even tells Jon that she doesn’t know what the plan and purpose is for Jon.

      (reading addt. comments before posting….)

      Stannis will be healthy at the start of S7, and one of the first scenes of S7 will be him and Brienne squaring off.

      Ha!! Okay, whatever man. That sounds worse than the worst fake leaks.

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    72. Black Raven:
      Mr Derp,

      Agreed… There’s been a few deaths which were not shown on screen; the Blackfish being another, but I have never doubted they didn’t happen.

      To believe Stannis is still alive is a crazy idea. The same for those hoping that LSH will appear in S7 – It just ain’t going to happen

      Black Raven,

      I mean, Xaro Xhoan Daxos was killed off-screen too so clearly he’s still alive right? Same goes for Lady, The Waif, Robert Baratheon, Rhaego, Blackfish, Syrio Forel, and others. They’re all just hiding behind the Iron Throne waiting for their chance to attack!

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    73. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Well whatever I wanted to say Clob said it much better than me ..

      Here we are discussing the ways to kill NK…iam sure its one way to kill the Nk by just making him watch those scenes play out ..

      But I do wish you well to be here during your hour of glory and rub it in our faces about how you are right and we are wrong

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    74. Clob: I believe Stannis was a tool for R’hllor’s plan, but it wasn’t what Mel thought. She makes mistakes.

      How about if Stannis was the path to Jon? How else would Jon have gained contact with her at just the right time were it not through Stannis and his army? Him showing up with his army helped redirect the Wildings as well, ultimately to be used in battle against the WW.
      So, maybe when poor old Stannis had served his purpose, he was put out of his misery? I know, rather harsh, but few things in Westeros are easy.

      And by the time Brienne had reached him, Stannis was pretty much gone, anyway, both psychologically and physically. If you watch his last scene again, especially the hand battle with the two soldiers, he is sliced across his thigh in what looked to be a nasty wound. He even gazes down at it and gives a resigned grunt, knowing his fate as he sunk to the bottom of that tree.

      I think he was set to bleed out, anyway, and would have been dead in a matter of minutes. His “Go on, do your duty,” was a last, world-weary farewell. He wanted to die, and would have even if Brienne had wrapped him in swaddling and cuddled him all the way to town. I’m not mocking LDB, just saying that Stannis was doomed from the beginning, which makes his whole arc all the more tragic. He dead. Way dead.

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    75. Mr Derp,

      I mean, Xaro Xhoan Daxos was killed off-screen too so clearly he’s still alive right?Same goes for The Waif, Robert Baratheon, Rhaego, Blackfish, Syrio Forel, and others.They’re all just hiding behind the iron Throne waiting for their chance to attack!

      Very true – I forget about some of those. Ah, how about Hodor? Last we saw of him he was ‘Holding the Door’ against the wights, but we didn’t see him die as such.

      Well, perhaps they will all return as White Walkers before the series finishes! That’s the only way we’ll be seeing all these dead characters again 😉

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    76. Thronetender,

      In all fairness any character can survive if the plot requires it. For example, Arya and the Hound should probably both be dead too, but the plot needs them, so they survived. If Stannis had anything left to contribute to the story then he would still be alive. Seeing as though Stannis has nothing left to give, it’s all the more reason to subscribe to the fact that Stannis is dead. Way dead, as it were 🙂

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    77. Mr Derp,

      “Lady should still be alive too.”

      Stop.

      Did they not actually show that? I always run out of the room to hug my dogs when that scene re-airs. 😀

      🙏🏽🙏🏽 Give me back direwolves GoT!!🙏🏽🙏🏽

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    78. Black Raven,

      Good point about Hodor, forgot about that one. I don’t hear many conspiracy theories discussing his death as a possible fake. It’s funny how some characters who die off screen are unanimously considered dead while others have all kinds of crazy conspiracy theories keeping them alive.

      It would so AWESOME to bring all the dead characters back in season 8 as wights. At least, I think it would be pretty awesome. Some characters deserve a second death while some didn’t deserve one in the first place. Can you imagine the conspiracy theories that would abound if filming spoilers spotted all those actors on scene?

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    79. ramses,

      Lol, yea, I hear ya. I skip that scene every time I watch the Kingsroad episode.

      And I think we hear Lady yelp, but don’t actually see her die. Not that I’d ever want to. I have a hard enough time seeing Summer die in “The Door”. I love that episode, but Summer’s death kinda ruins it for me.

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    80. ramses,

      I’d rather watch the Ramsey and reek scenes in season 3 than see the direwolves die again. I’d have to say the most difficult scenes for me to watch in GoT revolved around the direwolves getting killed. Greywind during the Rains of Castamere episode was heartbreaking. Hopefully Ghost won’t be cast aside quite so easily.

      The pilot episode really set up the direwolves as something critically important to the story, but that’s kind of faded little by little ever since. I hope they get back to making the direwolves important and useful to the story.

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    81. Mr Derp,

      Yep, that would be a hoot 😀

      The Paps would have field day seeing all these ‘dead characters’ from past series hanging around in Belfast bars or around the Titanic studios when filming starts on S8 !!

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    82. Mr Derp,

      “most difficult scenes for me to watch in GoT revolved around the direwolves getting killed.”

      Same.

      At this point I’m fine with never seeing Ghost again if it means we don’t have to endure another direwolf death. 😭

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    83. Mr Derp: Seeing as though Stannis has nothing left to give,

      and nothing left to live for, either. Had he not allowed Shireen to die in such a gruesome, visible way, he might have fought to live to see her on the throne. Had his wife survived, there might have been that, but when Melisandre ditched the camp, he knew all was hopeless anyway; and I guess that was our clue to realize that he was done. There was/is nothing left anywhere for him.

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    84. Mr Derp: I have a hard enough time seeing Summer die in “The Door”. I love that episode, but Summer’s death kinda ruins it for me.

      O my gosh, I’m so glad someone said that. I was in shock for days because of that episode. Hodor was tragic enough, but Summer too, omg, I was a mess. We have beautiful, big, beloved family dogs in our family, and hearing Summer yelp was awful. I thought I was being a big baby or overly sentimental, but I guess I wasn’t the only one.

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    85. Thronetender:,

      “Had he not allowed Shireen to die in such a gruesome, visible way, he might have fought to live to see her on the throne.”

      Yeah, Stannis is done.
      Not even The OT made Abraham go through with sacrificing his child.

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    86. Mr Derp: It would so AWESOME to bring all the dead characters back in season 8 as wights.

      Considering where, and how Hodor died, I kind of expect it. And Karsi, too. Can you imagine the Twitterverse during the episode if one or both were to appear?

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    87. Mr Derp,

      I wouldn’t like that a bit. I hated Lady Stoneheart in the book, I understood the significance, but it felt like pervading her character, although she had not been one of my favourites. Watching Karsi becoming a wight made me sad: they made me love her and then horribly changed her…
      I fully agree about the direwolves!

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    88. Shy Lady Dragon: Watching Karsi becoming a wight made me sad: they made me love her and then horribly changed her…

      All the better to make us, and more importantly, the Northerners and the Wildings realize what’s at stake, don’t you think? Everyone loved and respected Karsi (the writing for her character was masterful, and the performance was awesome: we did fall in love with her in the matter of seconds. Hard to achieve, but achieve it they did.) The Wildings would fight like demons in both terror and anger were they to see her as a wight

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    89. LatrineDiggerBrian: Stannis will be healthy at the start of S7, and one of the first scenes of S7 will be him and Brienne squaring off. She may have had mercy on him, but she still wants revenge but will do it the honorable way. Stannis will defeat her but will show her the same mercy that she showed him. And then will begin Stannis redemption arc — which unfortunately will ultimately end with him once again succumbing to the dark side and allure of power. He will be the ruler that sits on the Iron Throne when all is said and done and with Melisandre at his side — it will truly be bitter sweet.

      Okay, I just have to comment on this once more just for the hell of it and amuse myself… I’m going to then chalk it up as your fanfic or essentially your “rewrite” of an arc the way you want it, as you did with another the other day. If you’re trolling that’s fine… If you find humor in my writing a bunch in response, I’m okay with that too. I’ve got nothing better to do at the moment.

      Let’s ignore some things first. We’ll ignore that most people reading the books don’t buy into the delusions that Stannis is something special above and beyond a normal man that believes he’s the rightful heir to the throne. I’ve felt it with certainty throughout regardless of Melisandre saying he is simply by how the man and his arc are written. The PTWP is suppose to be a hero that saves the people from darkness and brings peace. Stannis is bitter, stubborn, not an affectionate man and doesn’t care for people. Hardly the type of person to be a hero or a proper king. Ignore those things. Stannis is a somewhat minor character in the books, probably less so than Robb even though he’s lasted longer. None of the kings of the ‘War of the Five Kings’ were pov characters. The rest are dead and let’s just say Stannis may not be long for the world either. Mel has stopped seeing visions of him and they’ve begun to revolve around Jon and/or his path. Finally, multiple characters on different sides have stated in scenes that he’s dead. Stephen and D&D also say he’s dead. Let’s ignore all of it.

      Your quoted account of his coming storyline pretty much makes him a main character. He’d be mostly equal to or of greater importance to the remaining story as any of the main protagonists or antagonist; Jon, Daenerys and Cersei.

      He’s going to have this lengthy, time consuming redemption arc where he swings from merciful and honorable to a power hungry, evil man? During that time he’s also going to gather a new army from somewhere(?) that will enable him to destroy all opposition and claim the iron throne? So is all of his arc separate from the rest of the story going on? How does he fit into the rest of it and cut into the storylines of the books/series long main characters? Do they all diverge from their current paths to face Stannis? Is his cold heart “Ice” and Melisandre’s burning crotch the “Fire”?

      He’s going to be that huge of a character in this season (and next) yet there was no word of him filming, no clues that he had, no blurry paparazzi shots of him anywhere near filming locations? Jon was suppose to be dead-dead with huge efforts to keep his return secret and he was photographed immediately on set and in public surrounding filming areas. There’s no hiding a character doing that much filming these days.

      Not happening… but thanks for giving me something to waste time on to finish out the work day. It’s quittin’ time!! 🙂

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    90. Mr Derp:

      The pilot episode really set up the direwolves as something critically important to the story, but that’s kind of faded little by little ever since. I hope they get back to making the direwolves important and useful to the story.

      Like you and many, many other people, I too wish we had seen much more of them; when the series is finally completed, I expect “lack of direwolf screentime” to be most fans’ #1 complaint about the more limited budget in earlier seasons. Having said that, though, I would argue that they have been “important and useful to the story,” as each one has reflected his/her Stark child.

      -Ghost, the albino, was the runt of the litter—the one who in nature would have been most likely to die, absent a caring parent or guardian. He parallels Jon, who would have died absent Ned’s unyielding protection following Lyanna’s death. Ghost also serves as the, how shall I phrase this, lupine mirror of Jon’s father, with his white fur (like Rhaegar’s silver hair) and red eyes (“fire and blood”). As they have ventured farther away from Winterfell and from the Wall, both puppy and boy (now wolf and young man) have become increasingly independent, intelligent, and quick-witted, always keenly aware of each other but, in each other’s absence, capable of surviving for weeks (or even months) at a time.
      -Grey Wind was like Robb: A wind that blew fiercely during the grey season (autumn), but that, like all winds, must eventually die or blow elsewhere.
      -In her very name, Lady reflected everything Sansa always aspired to be—an ideal highborn woman of her time, skilled in the feminine arts, sweet, demure, always truthful and always cognizant that “a lady never forgets her courtesies.” This paragon of ladyship could not navigate the treacherous ways of the southron court, and would have never taken the chance of leaping off the walls of Winterfell with Theon. In order to survive, Sansa had to kill the “ideal lady” she had always fostered in her child’s heart. This process began when, given the impossible choice between supporting her family and supporting her betrothed and king, she chose the latter.
      -Rickon’s extreme youth, recklessness, and lack of self-discipline were seen in Shaggydog, who had not only a childish name but also the tendencies of an ill-trained dog—enthusiastic but disobedient and prone to bite people. Like Grey Wind, he was fated to die when his person did.
      -Summer was named for the season in which Bran was born, and his death in the cave reflected the end of Bran’s own summer, when he became the Three-Eyed Raven and exited the cave into true physical and psychological winter.
      -Like the warrior queen for whom she is named—and just as important, the girl who named her—Nymeria left her homeland and unwittingly embarked on a grand adventure during which she has known great loss but also gained profound strength. We know the she-wolf now leads a great pack in the Riverlands; where will Arya’s arc take her next?

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    91. Hom: Terry Gilliam….John Boorman

      I cannot get enough of TG! Genius and absolute fool! I wish he got to finish his Don Quixote adaptation (an amazing story itself). Thanks for the Boorman reminder too. I think I’ll do a ‘Brazil’ – ‘Excaliber’ – ‘Fisher King’ – ‘Deliverance’ filmfest this week! 🙂

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    92. Mr Derp,

      It would so AWESOME to bring all the dead characters back in season 8 as wights. At least, I think it would be pretty awesome. Some characters deserve a second death while some didn’t deserve one in the first place. Can you imagine the conspiracy theories that would abound if filming spoilers spotted all those actors on scene?

      Actually what would be really cool is the whole cast dressing up as wrights and doing their rendition of Thriller!

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    93. Wolfish: We know the she-wolf now leads a great pack in the Riverlands; where will Arya’s arc take her next?

      Well done, Wolfish. A lot of points that seem to make absolute sense. It seems as if each 4-legged wolf’s life did correlate precisely with his 2 legged counterpart. Interesting stuff. If your examples play out, then Arya is set to become a leader rather than a loner. I can’t wait to see.

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    94. Thronetender,

      Even more than the lack of direwolf screentime, what I miss the most about the book characters’ connection to their wolves is the warging. I hope this is at least intimated with Jon and Arya in S7; it’s very clear in the books, and one of the most integral things that render Jon and Arya as… Starkish as Bran.

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    95. Clob,

      I’m being serious. Look, that scene just didn’t sit right with me. Not only did she hesitate and they never showed the kill, but it was in an episode filled with cliff hangers which made it all the more bizarre. One afterwards where they had to come out and publicly confirm that he was dead because many people were confused (and had a right to be). And please don’t use the fact that they publicly confirmed it as evidence — they could’ve been lying.

      If he isn’t alive, then I feel they made a misstep by doing it that way. The death of Stannis was a major shocker and one that I never really felt the full impact of because of all the uncertainty that came with that episode. And these are coming from guys who don’t normally make big mistakes like that. So that’s why I haven’t been able to let go of that scene and the possibility that Stannis is still alive.

      As for Stannis arc, they could fit it in. And his descent back to the dark side could be quick when he’s presented with a major choice in a key situation.

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    96. Wolfish,

      Ghost symbolises Old gods and jon’s connection to them.Ghost serves as a reminder of his bastard status.
      He is Rhaegar’s son but You are just stretching it to make a connection with Rhaegar.

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    97. Guys/gals, everyone knows that Ned isn’t dead either.

      Wait wait wait…*holds hands in air*….I KNOW you will say,

      “But Pigeon, don’t be daft! Ned was executed before hundreds, THOUSANDS of people. We may not have SEEN the exact moment in which his noggin did depart from his neck, but it was blatantly obvious through crowd reaction and subsequent character discussion that it did indeed occur. Are you saying that it was all a ruse, that our beloved man with a name like a stutter did not actually meet his demise, that his head did not bounce down the steps and roll about? That it was not his cranium hoisted on the pike before all? That it was some sort of trick???”

      To which I respond,

      No you silly buggers. All of that…well, MOST of that was true. However, the simple fact is that Qyburn retrieved and sewed his head back on, as practice for future endeavours. True, it was a little worse for wear, and by the time it was on the pike was distorted and unpleasant to view.

      BUT!!!!

      BUT (and believe you me, my but is a large one!) this is where the ‘mostly true’ bit of my theor…no, the truth, lies. Because the face on the pike was Ned’s, and yet not Ned’s. Because after being plunked back into the black cells to sleep off his rather large kink in the neck, Ned pulled a fast one. Because he had a wagon to catch outta Dodge, and had to make it snappy. Because….

      JAQEN H’GAR IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, EDDARD F*CKING STARK!!!!!!!

      *turns on heel, stalks out of room with a flourish, trips on carpet and falls down stairs*

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    98. ghost of winterfell,

      Leaks.

      Because Night King is far stronger, arguably better fighter than Jon? Night King is the ultimate enemy, you think Valyrian Steel sword is gonna kill him? Did Aragorn killed Sauron? No. Use your imagination. Night King is the most powerful opponent so you can image it will take more than standard weapons to kill him, special way. Regular WW’S might be killed various ways.

      Put it this way one of Jon and Daenerys is very likely going to die fighting him. We can toss the coin to see who but going so close to him, he could kill Jon with bare hands. WW who Sam killed just toss him around like a rag of dolls, same with that WW dude at Hardhome.

      dragonbringer,

      Leaks.

      Wights are in a way bigger threat to them, because dead soldiers can be reanimated by Night King. WW’s cannot. Do not underestimated this purpose of dragons and what else could counter dragons? Doubt there is more than simply throwing ice spear at them. That will kill Viserion. Maybe wight dragon is more powerful than fire dragon but other than that not much else to counter dragons with.

      Wolfish,

      Ghost is Jon’s connection to the Old Gods, Stark family. he found him not along with others but alone. Symbolizing his bastard status in the society and Ghost grew up to be the biggest direwolf same as Jon grew up to be the most successful of them. Direwolves are sigil of House Stark. Why are people trying to make everything about Targaryens?

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    99. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      Clob,

      As for Stannis arc, they could fit it in. And his descent back to the dark side could be quick when he’s presented with a major choice in a key situation.

      You mean like the one where he is faced with choice of burning his daughter and him actually going forward with the decision ..
      i agree it was very quick and quite dark which eventually turned out to be a classic tragedy
      I really wish you would stop saying that GRRm and D&D won’t do this and that ..it’s really not a good defense..

      Geralt of Rivia,

      It will not be Jon alone or dany alone ..it will take a combined efforts..

      Wights who can set them up with fire …Nothing that cannot be done by group of good archers and as it happens there is a entire horde who is known for their skill in archery ..

      As far as the dragons vs WW goes ..I guess we only have to wait two months to know who is right and wrong..so we will see

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    100. IceBrandon,

      I’m really not trying to “stretch” the connection with Rhaegar. All the direwolves are a connection to the old gods: After all, like the Children of the Forest they are a dying breed. Jon is very much a Northerner with Northern values, and I don’t expect that to change even after he finds out what his true parentage is. But one of the many things I see in Ghost is, paradoxically, the mirror of his biological father—a mirror we do not see in Jon’s own dark-haired, dark-eyed person: white fur, red eyes. Another mirror, so to speak, is what you mentioned: the connection to the old gods. Ghost is a reflection of Jon’s own complexity, of which he himself is not yet fully aware.

      I did acknowledge that Ghost was the runt of the litter, which mirrored Jon’s bastard status—a status that might have doomed him were it not for Ned’s undying (literally) protection.

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    101. Geralt of Rivia,

      Please see my response to IceBrandon above. I suppose I should have written a longer post (!) acknowledging that I understand that all direwolves represent a connection to the old gods. I have never believed Ghost is “all about the Targs,” only that his physical appearance reflects (unknowingly to Jon) his true parentage. Everything else about Ghost is absolutely, unconditionally, of the North.

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    102. Geralt of Rivia,

      I did not say Valyrian Steel will kill the NK. What I said was we don’t know how he will react to VS, there is a difference. We have absolutely no idea what his vulnerabilities are, what needs to be done to take him down. Based on that, I disagreed with your statement that Jon,combined with the efforts of Dany, Bran or anyone else, is incapable of bringing down the NK and surviving. It’s just an assumption that he can kill a VS armed Jon with his bare hands. It is also just an assumption that Jon or Dany will die at the hands of the NK. To compare with LotR, Frodo did not have to die to destroy the ring.

      Since we are on this topic, I think (as has been suggested before) the way to kill the NK will be to remove the shard of dragonglass from his chest.

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    103. ghost of winterfell,

      This is Game of Thrones and not Lord of the Rings.

      You can safely assume that someone powerful as Night King won’t be killed with a just sword. I said that all of them together could do it but Jon going one on one on him might not. Night King can kill him with his bare hands. Did you saw Sam and WW or Jon and WW fight? They were toying with them with their bare hands. Not an assumption, just a fact. One of Dany or Jon are very likely to die whether by Night King or in this war. It won’t end in a happy ending with two of them alive, prepare for it.

      Wolfish,

      I can see where you’re going with this dragon eyes and white fur but white fur can easily mean Snow, Jon’s surname. Eyes maybe dragon but not fan of this theory.

      dragonbringer,

      Dothraki advantage are in horses and these will die. There is more wights than dothraki, thoe who they kill will join NK army and in fact raise his forces.

      Who knows it might be work of all three of them but Dany and Night King are Ice and Fire in sense of embodiment of these elements.

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    104. LatrineDiggerBrian: As for Stannis arc, they could fit it in. And his descent back to the dark side could be quick when he’s presented with a major choice in a key situation.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      But we’ve already been through this with Stannis. What’s the point of doing it again?

      LatrineDiggerBrian: And please don’t use the fact that they publicly confirmed it as evidence — they could’ve been lying.

      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      But they could also be telling the truth, which you don’t seem to be considering. You’re only looking at one side of the coin while ignoring the other.

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    105. Wolfish,

      Totally agree! I understand that the show wants one differentiate Bran and not overplay the warming, which could get old, but the connection has been so under emphasized 🙁

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    106. Trivia question that is unimportant but nagging at me…before season 6 they talked about a special or visual effect that they thought they would have to do in season 4 or 5, ended up in 6…led the LSH fans to have hope lol…anyone know what effect they WERE talking about? Something related to FM maybe? Just curious.

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    107. fdr: TG’s Quixote movie is coming out next year.

      Holy crap, what timing! 18 years in the making! I wonder if it will be better than “Lost in La Mancha”? 🙂

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    108. Wolfish:
      Thronetender,

      Even more than the lack of direwolf screentime, what I miss the most about the book characters’ connection to their wolves is the warging. I hope this is at least intimated with Jon and Arya in S7; it’s very clear in the books, and one of the most integral things that render Jon and Arya as… Starkish as Bran.

      Completely agree and feel the same. Jon and Arya have shown they have the ability. Arya has been able to control it and use it. There’s something special about them and it seems like it’s getting stronger as they age. The show has reduced the direwolves to basically just big pet dogs that have been barely part of the story, but eliminating the warging ability has been even more disappointing. Arya’s dreams as a wolf, as Nymeria, could have been used in her Braavos arc as one of the factors in her decision to return home. They wouldn’t have needed to do cgi wolf stuff to do more of the ‘through the eyes of a wolf’ point of view like they did for Bran warging Summer a few times.

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    109. Clob,

      The reason they cut the other Starks having warging powers is that it would make Bran feel even more useless than he already is,besides the greenseer stuff,which is basically him being a flashback machine and not a really useful ability,he would have nothing different. Jon has the Targaryen connection/Azor Ahai,Arya the faceless men stuff,Sansa her political abilities and Bran the warging powers,it’s better this way .

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    110. Gucci Robert: it’s better this way

      I just don’t agree that it is. It’s part of the books story and it works so cutting all of it just feels like something missing for me. To me it seems a bit odd that Bran alone would have special abilities, specifically warging since it is often a genetic trait.

      Bran is not just a warg but a skinchanger, which is very rare and on top of that he’s a greenseer which is even more rare. That is what sets him apart from the others. Jon has shown signs of warging ability but Sixskins believed Jon is a skinchanger. Arya has shown signs of being a skinchanger by ‘entering’ a cat. They do have warging ability but not Bran’s abilities.

      I personally think they’ll use their abilities more in the final books if they’re ever finished. To me it was a big element of their characters and there’s a noticeable chunk missing without it.

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    111. Gucci Robert,

      I agree with Clob on this one. Bran is set apart by being a warg, a greenseer, and a skinchanger who has successfully entered another human’s mind (a rare trifecta); showing Jon or Arya warging would in no way detract from Bran’s unique powers. The Starks’ ability to warg into their wolves is as integral as the Targaryens’ connection to their dragons, and is a crucial element of the story that has been largely lost in the TV adaptation.

      On that note, I’m going to repeat a comment I’ve made on other threads: In the books there’s a joke made in passing by one of the Mormont women to Asha (Yara) Greyjoy, wherein the former tells the latter that Mormont women can turn into bears and find mates in the woods. I’m waiting for the revelation that Tormund is fierce little Lady Lyanna’s father… 😉

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    112. Wolfish: I’m waiting for the revelation that Tormund is fierce little Lady Lyanna’s father…

      Wolfish,

      That would be a little too cutesy-poo for me, but I can see why others would enjoy it 🙂

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    113. Wolfish,

      Excellent analysis of the Stark children and their pups! For sure Ghost is the perfect combo of Stark/bastard/Targ representation that one could ever hope for in a direwolf!

      I think all of the Stark children are/were potential wargs.

      We’ll never know with Sansa because her wolf died too soon. Robb was not a pov character in the books, but the scene when Greywind dies in the show suggested the possibility that Robb warged into his wolf after he died.

      Of course in the books we know Arya and Jon are wargs.

      I wish Arya’s and Jon’s warg abilities had been included in the show. I don’t think it would have taken away from Bran’s importance as a Greenseer. Sadly, I think this decision came down to time and money.

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    114. 💩 I forgot about Rickon! No wonder he was killed off before uttering one sentence in S6 😝.

      I think Rickon/Shaggydog fall into Sansa/Lady territory; one or both died before the warm connection developed.

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    115. ramses,

      In the books they all are wargs but some to a lesser extent than others what might be dependent on how much Tully blood they have. GRRM has said they all are though, Robb had it too but as a lesser extent but the connection he had to Grey Wind in battle showed proof of that.
      Sansa probably has it too but the least amount of extent not only because Lady died before their bond grew and developed but also because she probably has the most Tully blood between the Stark siblings. Rickon shared Bran’s dream of Ned in the crypts, so he could have 1. seen it because of his own abilities or 2. shared the dream with Bran because all of the Stark wolves also share a bond, so Rickon saw it through Shaggydog, connected to Summer, connected to Bran. Shaggydog also develops the most like Rickon, Rickon is a bit wild and in turn Shaggydog becomes quite wild matching Rickon, there are instances of this in Bran’s POV where he thinks on how close and similar Rickon and Shaggywolf are. I definitely think Rickon had it but because he was so young it hadn’t fully developed like Bran yet but he probably would of ended up quite a strong warg once he got a few years on him.

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    116. “Tully blood they have”

      I’ve never considered the Stark children’s warg abilities in direct relation to how much Tully blood they have. Just like I’ve not factored in Jon’s Targaryen genes to his ability to communicate with Ghost. Would you say then that Jon’s warg connection to Ghost suggests he is genetically more Stark than Targaryen?
      That said. Can Sansa commune with fish? 🙂

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    117. Wolfish: wherein the former tells the latter that Mormont women can turn into bears and find mates in the woods. I’m waiting for the revelation that Tormund is fierce little Lady Lyanna’s father

      Hmmm, before last season I might have called you crazy, but with the emphasis on the Mormont sigil being a bear, and everyone calling Lyanna the “little bear,” I’m not so sure. Obviously the Mormont women are fiercely strong minded and independent, and Lyanna’s mother was Maege Mormont, head of House Mormont. Lord Commander Jeor was her older brother, there at the Wall.

      I’ve always been mystified by that scene outside the walls of Castle Black, s4 Ep8, when the group of Wildings were awaiting Mance’s signal to attack, (after they had decimated Moles Town, with Gilly slipping by them in the dark) and Tormund started that tale about making love to a bear. It was so fookin detailed, and Ygritte was so scornful. I couldn’t figure why the writers would spend so much time on such a thing. I thought they meant to show Tormund as a bit off kilter. But otherwise, he seemed so together.

      It didn’t occur to me then about the Mormont sigil being a bear, and I didn’t know there were any tales about the Mormont women turning into bears. It could have been Maege, but when and where? Was Tormund ever south of the Wall before then? Or did Maege travel to the Wall to see Jeor and go ranging north of the Wall? What a twist it would be for Tormund to be revealed as Lyanna’s father. I wonder how she would take the news? LOL, a lot of thought for imaginary meetings, but that’s what happens when one gets immersed in the show Game of Thrones and GRRM’s ASoIaF

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    118. ramses,

      Haha Sansa communicating with fish would be hilarious, I’d love to see that. It’s a shame Winterfell is so far away from the ocean.
      I do think Jon is more wolf than dragon, that fact that he has warging abilities and such a strong connection with Ghost point to his wolf side bring dominant. Dany embodies the Dragon, and I can’t see Jon being the same not even when he learns of his parentage. Just because his father was a dragon doesn’t mean Jon is, Ned was a wolf and not all his children took after him. Jon had a wolf mother, a adopted wolf father who raised him to wolf values, with wolf siblings. So to me Jon is a wolf with dragon blood dabbled in with some traits of Rhaegar like his temper and broodiness but mostly takes after the Wolf side, part of me thinks he may ride a dragonaka Rhaegal (you don’t need to be a full dragon to do so as long as you have enough dragon blood) but the other half of me thinks his gonna stay on the ground with Ghost and lead a army against the WW. Considering they built up Dany and Drogon’s relationship over time the most showing them bonding so it made sense when she rode Drogon if they don’t

      show Jon developing any kind of bond with Rhaegal when his at Dragonstone This season, I’ll be leaning towards him not riding a dragon

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    119. Mel,

      Agree wholeheartedly with your spoiler coded comment. Clock’s ticking.

      I had thought Tyrion would utilize his saddle design to jump on Viserion and ride along side Jon and Dany, but I’m slightly less confident in my hopeful prediction now.

      Although, they will need something to do in S8 besides fighting ww.

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    120. ramses,

      Agree, I always thought Tyrion would be the third head especially considering when GRRM said you don’t HAVE to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon, that seemed like he was foreshadowing Tyrion as a rider. They always made three heads of the dragon such a big thing in the books only for the show to completely drop it and make the Night King a rider so that crushed my dreams of it a little bit lol. There is 6 episodes for S8 but I can’t see them all being about fighting the WW, there will be the planning episodes all the characters interacting, the fighting, however they defeat the WW, then there also has to be at least one episode dedicated to the aftermath of all the characters and perhaps a time skip since that is what GRRM said the only thing he didn’t like about LOTR that it didn’t show years down the track what the outcome would be

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    121. ramses,

      Thank you. 🙂

      Mel,

      YES… I always viewed Jon’s, Arya’s, and Bran’s warging abilities as a clear indication of their greater bond with the North.

      Thronetender,

      As Mr Derp writes, it might be a bit too cutesy-poo, but why write Tormund’s dialogue that way if it’s not… wait… what Wimsey would label as a firearm belonging to a great Russian playwright? 😉

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    122. Wolfish: Tormund’s dialogue that way if it’s not… wait… what Wimsey would label as a firearm belonging to a great Russian playwright? 😉

      You mean a well-hung gun? Yeah, I think Tormund might qualify.

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