Nathalie Emmanuel slams petition to re-do Season 8, defends Missandei’s death; Aidan Gillen addresses Game of Thrones ending

Missandei King's Landing Dracarys Season 8 804

Nathalie Emmanuel and Aidan Gillan, who played Missandei and Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish respectively, are but two of the latest Game of Thrones cast members to go to bat for the show’s ending and criticize the way some fans reacted to their dislike of it.

Before discussing the ending proper, Nathalie Emmanuel addresses Missandei’s own ending, which also caused a bit of a stir, especially regarding the optics of this black former slave being executed in chains at the hands of Cersei, in a narrative-motivated move to further isolate Daenerys and motivate her following actions. The actress, however, sees it quite differently, finding agency and power in Missandei’s death:

“I was very grateful for the strength that she had when she left. That was a performance choice for me,” Emmanuel tells TVLine. “I was like, ‘She’s not going to be crying. She’s not going to be stereotypically scared.’ She’s scared, but she owns it.”

“This woman survived slavery. She knew that she might go to war and die. And she’s owning it like a badass bitch. And I felt like that’s what I did. I was very proud of it.”

As for the end of Game of Thrones and the reaction to it amongst some corners in the fandom, in particular that infamous petition asking HBO to re-do the ending, Emmanuel is keen to emphasize that “it’s totally fine if you don’t like something”, that it’s “perfectly acceptable.” That petition, however, she appears to find insulting: “What I didn’t like was that people were signing a petition. You can’t ask for receipts on art. You just can’t. The art has been created for you, and you can either choose to like it or not.”

Regarding her personal opinion on the final season and the finale, Emmanuel was “blown away”, as it was “a hard plane to land,” she says. “I don’t think people quite realize the undertaking and the amount of manpower it took to do that.”

In a similar vein to Gemma Whelan’s recent statements, a cast member suspected by some conspiracists to have hated the ending has come out and debunked this notion, which was not so much based on reality as on these fans’ need for validation. The Targaryen crew –especially Emilia Clarke, Nathalie Emmanuel, and Jacob Anderson– were the main focus of this, so it’s nice to see one of them dismiss it so clearly.

Littlefinger Vale 604

On November 25 of last year, Aidan Gillen was awarded with the Bram Stoker Medal of Cultural Achievement by the University Philosophical Society and, as part of the ceremony, he took part in a a long Q&A that’s only been made available recently:

Very much like Emmanuel, Gillen shares his musings on the toxic reaction to the ending by some people, as well as his personal opinion on season eight and the finale:

“There was a lot of flak about the last season of Game of Thrones. I was astounded,” he begins. “The mentality there’s nowadays, when people go on Twitter, and slag the fuck out of everything; I really hate it… It’s a really nasty strain of behavior… For people to turn on the writers of something that people had adored for seven seasons in such a nasty fashion, as they did, I was really taken aback. I really was.”

“I thought that some of the best scenes, the best sequences, of Game of Thrones were in the last season. I don’t have any doubt about that,” Gillen underscores. “They ended it the only way that they could end it; which was strangely reminiscent of how it began: there’s people sitting in this land which seems to have some kind of stability, but there’s also uncertainty and threat, which is, I suppose, what the world is like all the time.”

That’s not to say he doesn’t have suggestions of how it could’ve been better: “There was a part of me that wanted it to end about twenty minutes before it did. It’s just that it was an image that was so fantastic–the dragon flying away, carrying Daenerys Targaryen–that was stunning. I thought the episode before was fucking amazing, too.”

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    1. “Nathalie Emmanuel and Aidan Gillan, who played Missandei and Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish respectively, are but to of the latest Game of Thrones cast members to go to bat for the show’s ending and criticize the way some fans reacted to their dislike of it.”

      Two

      Signed Stannis Baratheon, King of Grammar.

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    2. “What I didn’t like was that people were signing a petition. You can’t ask for receipts on art”

      Didn’t she give this interview way back in July of 2019?

      Either way, I think the petition was juvenile and unnecessary, regardless of what you thought of the ending. I didn’t much care for the ending, but I’ve made my peace with it.

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    3. “What I didn’t like was that people were signing a petition. You can’t ask for receipts on art. You just can’t. The art has been created for you, and you can either choose to like it or not.”

      Hell yes, Nathalie. Hell yes! Say it loud and be proud!

      “I was very grateful for the strength that she had when she left. That was a performance choice for me,” Emmanuel tells TVLine. “I was like, ‘She’s not going to be crying. She’s not going to be stereotypically scared.’ She’s scared, but she owns it.”

      “This woman survived slavery. She knew that she might go to war and die. And she’s owning it like a badass bitch. And I felt like that’s what I did. I was very proud of it.”

      That ironclad strength in the face of fear and sadness absolutely came across. Heartbreaking as Missandei’s death was (one of the saddest in the series, IMO), it was tragically fitting. Nathalie’s performance in those final moments was incredible. Emilia’s and Jacob’s as well.

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    4. I can understand their disappointment. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss wrote a brilliant and magnificent final season and its pretty sad that some people can’t appreciate it because the plot didn’t go the way they wanted. But that’s fine, the true fans are staying behind Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss and behind the magnificent final season!

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    5. Yes, it does look like that article is dated July 2019 when I clicked the link over to it. Along with “bittersweet”, “literally”, and some other words, I wince when I see “season 8” in the title of a new article post.

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    6. Couldn’t have said it better myself Nathalie and Aiden. Season 8 was brilliant and one for the ages. Daenerys perched on top of Drogon before she turned mad is the greatest scene in cinema history and Bran the Broken as king is exactly how it should be. He has the best story and it makes narrative sense. Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, I’ll always be grateful.

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    7. Iul:
      You have to love something a lot to be so disappointed.

      A slight variant is equally true:
      “You have to love someone a lot to be so disappointed.”

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    8. 99% of the cast and crew: “We proudly stand behind D&D and the ending!”
      GoT S8 haters: *radio silence*
      1% of the cast and crew: “It was alright but maybe it could’ve been better in some ways…”
      GoT S8 haters: “THAT CLINCHES IT!”

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    9. “And she’s owning it like a badass bitch.”

      This. This is the whole problem, this mentality that everything has to be BADAAAASS to be better. One of the main reasons why the show deteriorated in quality over time; characters, their decisions and the plot didn’t make sense after a while because it was all motivated by (1) plot points the writers wanted to have, (2) badassdom.

      Of course, each person has the right to like this kind of story, a story driven by these BADAAAASS moments and great visual effects, but saying it’s good writing (especially compared to previous seasons) is just laughable.

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    10. I don’t know if I agree with that assessment or not, but I do think “badass bitch” is incredibly overused. “Boss ass bitch”, etc…like the word “brilliant” or “bittersweet”…or “literally”. All ridiculously overused.

      It seems to be a word/phrase that’s been hijacked by feminists. I always thought feminists hated to be called a “bitch”, but I suppose it’s one of those words/phrases that carries a different definition to different people.

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    11. Mr Derp,

      The only moment in the final season that could warrant being badass was maybe Arya killing the Night King. I can’t think of any other moment that could he considered badass. I don’t think Dany burning down a city is considered badass at least I hope not.

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    12. I agree on the petition part. I still can’t understand why people feel they are obliged to a redone. The cast and crew work hard for the season, I think the hardest in season 8 (which I can understand why they feel personally attacked when people disliked season 8). And I still disliked the notion of the petition. (especially when I expect that most of the petitioners are even people who downloaded instead of paying for it).

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    13. mau:
      D&D forced them to say this /s

      I didn’t expect this statement from you.

      Yes I know you were trying to be sarcastic. 😉

      Iul:
      You have to love something a lot to be so disappointed.

      Agree, if you don’t love something, you don’t care and won’t be angry or disappointed.

      mau,

      True, I always though he would die, and she would live.

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    14. Hodor Hodorson,

      I agree with this fully. Too many shows/franchises fall for the “easy action”, “bad-ass moments”, “bigger the better”. And you can only get so far with it till you become “mediocre”.

      I personally held shows that show almost no action to an higher standard than shows that need to use action to make the show stick with it’s fans. For me eye candy wear of for me with reruns, while great written character-arcs and moments keep getting me back. I already watched Leftovers 4 times, Sopranos 3 times and six feet under 2 times. And it was not because of the action. They contain almost none, and they were mostly character driven storylines.
      It’s much more difficult and sophisticated to write shows/episodes like that that contain no action.

      Fireandblood87,

      It was Nathalie Emmanuel talking about her own character, not Aiden Gillen.

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    15. Tron79:
      Yes, it does look like that article is dated July 2019 when I clicked the link over to it.Along with “bittersweet”, “literally”, and some other words, I wince when I see “season 8” in the title of a new article post.

      Let’s not forget there’s a moratorium on the other “B” word: “br*****nt.”

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    16. Mr Derp,

      They didn’t hijack the word “bitch”, they’re reappropriating it, trying to turn it into something positive, or at least take the power away from it. It’s a pretty common thing and it’s been going on for a long time. Nothing weird about it, and it definitely isn’t an exclusively feminist thing, either.

      As an LGBT person, I know a lot of people who aren’t afraid to refer to themselves with words that have traditionally been used as insults or slurs–sometimes jokingly, sometimes quite seriously, but the intention is very much to take the power out of the word. It’s not something I personally choose to engage in but I absolutely understand why they do it. For example, I still absolutely despise the word “queer”, which–by definition–suggests we’re something “other”, something “weird” or “strange.” But there are a LOT of people nowadays who closely identify with that word (especially younger people who don’t know specifically where they fit in on the LGBT spectrum). Admittedly it still gets on my nerves a little whenever someone calls themselves queer or refers to the “queer community”, but at the end of the day, I accept it. I’m not interested in playing the morality police and dictating how people should or shouldn’t talk about themselves. If it isn’t offensive to them to call themselves a certain word, then it shouldn’t be to me, either–because ultimately that’s not my call to make, it’s theirs.

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    17. Ten Bears, I really like Maisie but she sounded a bit shrill on the top notes I thought. Perhaps the arrangers could have brought the tune down a key or two. One thing about having reached a somewhat advanced age I find I seem to hold unpopular opinions. I liked the original Ronnettes back in the day. Though the instances I have mentioned are two words overused in conjunction and not a single word.

      As for words “bad ass” on its own, especially as a term of praise, annoys me. “Girl crush” for a straight woman admiring another woman also gets on my tonsils.

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    18. The LightKing,

      If you think the fans hated season 1 because “it didn’t go the way they wanted,” then you truly don’t undestand why the fans hated it. I’m 99% sure these very fans would love this very same ending in the books, if it was done without plot holes, illogical storylines and the story was properly developed.

      The “True Fans” wouldn’t just blindly support something hich was rushed, was full of plotholes. and was illogical.

      But I agree. Everything else except the writing (of episode 5&6) was brilliant. The actors did a great job, the music was brilliant, the cinematography was amazing.

      I also agree that some of the fans might have been too aggressive, but I guess that’s undestandable.

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    19. Azor Asshai,

      In other words, a long-winded way of saying what I already said, “I suppose it’s one of those words/phrases that carries a different definition to different people”.

      I still think it’s a ridiculously overused phrase that loses most of it’s meaning and impact due to it’s overuse.

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    20. “For people to turn on the writers of something that people had adored for seven seasons in such a nasty fashion, as they did, I was really taken aback.”

      That’s because it was sh*te.

      Also, I’m in the camp who already thought Season 7 was in dire, dire trouble. The complaints did not come out of nowhere, nor were they unjustified. They were also focused on the real problem – the writing – not the production team, or actors, CGI artists, composers, or anyone else who clearly put a lot of effort into this. It was a massive failure at the top by D&D.

      The petition may be silly, but the desire for it tells you exactly how the fans felt. “But why?” and “You’re not allowed to have an opinion” are not going to make the fans feel any better about it. Just look at the videos by Lindsey Ellis or Mauler and actually understand where this is coming from.

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    21. Uzma,

      You worded it wonderfully. Now I wait for a reply that Martin will never release the books, because he can’t write without plotholes and that’s keeping him from finishing the books.

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    22. kevin1989,

      That man was able to hammer out the first 3 books inside of 6 years, and all three of those books were solid, defined, self-contained chunks of the overall series narrative. Then after that third book… something happened. It took him 5 years to make FfC, which has the narrative content of ~40% of one of the prior books plus a whole lot of meandering filler, then it took him another 6 years to make DoD, which had the narrative content of ~50% of one of the prior books plus a whole lot of meandering filler. The remaining ~10% of that narrative is going to start off WoW, which GRRM didn’t originally intend to happen.

      So… 11 years to construct an *incomplete* narrative, and GoT-SoS all had complete narratives individually. It’ll probably be another 11-12 years since 2011 to make another full narrative in the form of WoW (at least, because he’s a lot busier nowadays than he was throughout the 2000s). And now that people have, more-or-less, seen his ending (and many have trashed the hell out of it), there’s far less incentive for him to finish it.

      But other than that, remember Samwell at the very beginning of 8×3 – a shaking bundle of petrified nerves? I feel like that’s basically GRRM when it comes to the ASOIAF series, ever since he published DoD in 2000 and finished essentially the first half of the story. He only has a few vaguely-defined, changeable endpoints in mind, and he just has no idea how to get to them.

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    23. Emily,

      Man, if GRRM ever releases ADoS (which a betting man would wager against), then you’re gonna be in for some major disappointment when the broad strokes and major beats go basically the same way.

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    24. Farimer123,

      You didn’t surprise me at all, as I said I was waiting for such a reply.

      And maybe your right about Feast and dance maybe not, I won’t agree with it as I state before. But the same could be said to the last couple of seasons of GoT and especially the last, but instead of narrative they missing somethings more crucial for a story which Martin did deliver in his books: Logic, character decisions change the plot not the plot change the character decisions (could be part of logic and this is also the reason why Martin story takes so many different sidetracks because he lead his story by his characters and needs to invent outer forces to make his characters go a certain way he wants with his plot because they wouldn’t go there themselves, with the show they somehow forget the characters to get to that point, they somehow forget (about Euron’s forces 😉 )), not overusing action (Which martin skips many times over to get to the more interesting part, how characters feel about it, human heart in conflict with itself), character building over shock value, shock which the show overused could only be used once the first time you watch it. (And the point that we should have seen it coming with for instance Dany is not valid here, yes we should have seen it coming but the way the scene was constructed and written was meant as shock value not as character building, compare this to the structure of the RW or in Breaking Bad when Walter let that girl die before his eyes, or in mr robot when it was revealed what really happened in his past.)

      As for that Martin has a problem with writing, the answer seems to be simple: Yes he has.
      But we can all make up our own speculation why that is, I’ve seen more than 10 different reasons: The books is done, he is getting old, he doesn’t know where he is heading, he is depressed, he is not focused etc etc. And we are not GRRM so we don’t know, the only thing we know is that he is late with his book and a response of his that the fault lies with his other projects that makes it that he can’t zone into Westeros. (which is important when you read the books that the story is written from a characters POV and you feel that martin somehow becomes that character while writing, so it’s not important that he knows what he wants to happen, it’s important that he feels what is happening, that is why a Bran chapter feels different in tone than an Arya or a Cersei or a Jon.)

      Farimer123,

      The thing Martin states is that for the main character the endings are the same (yes and no yes and no) and the side character could be different and probably with most, don’t expect Bronn to be on the counsil in the books for instance. But he also states the road for the main characters to that ending is very different in the books. So we maybe get some road points but while the show went from Oslo to Rome by airplane, he is probably taking the boat trip around the Atlantic ocean and the Mediterranean Sea. Different journey’s with the same endpoint.

      The prove is already in the sample chapters of Winds. He already released around 1/7 1/8 of the books. And the strokes seem to be 90+% not in the show. Arya is Mercy and a show is given, there is a battle in Meereen, Boltons seem to be off to a battle and that’s it. Even how those things are filled in are completely different.

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    25. kevin1989,

      … But he [GRRM] also states the road for the main characters to that ending is very different in the books. So we maybe get some road points but while the show went from Oslo to Rome by airplane, he is probably taking the boat trip around the Atlantic ocean and the Mediterranean Sea. Different journey’s with the same endpoint.”

      Arya: “Where are we?”
      GRRM: “Near Oslo, I think.”
      Arya: “You ‘think.’ You don’t have a map?”
      GRRM: “No, I don’t have a map.”
      Arya: “Maybe we should get one.”
      GRRM: “Just point out the next map shop you see and I’ll buy you one.”
      Arya: “How far is it to TWOW?”
      GRRM: “Far.”
      Arya: “And you’re sure we’re going the right way?”
      GRRM: “Believe me, girl, I want to get there as soon as I can. Get my royalties, be on my way.”
      Arya: “On your way where?”
      GRRM: “Why do you care? F*ck it, I don’t know where I’m going. I lost my way a long time ago… Might book passage across the Narrow Sea. Write about Old Valyria. Seems like a good fit for me.”
      Arya: “I’d like to read TWOW one day.”
      GRRM: “Why TWOW?”
      Arya: “I have a good story line there.”
      GRRM: “I doubt it.”
      Publisher: “Seven blessings!”
      GRRM: “What do you want?”
      Publisher: “What do I want? The manuscript you’ve been promising me.”
      GRRM: “F*ck off.”

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    26. kevin1989,

      You invited a reply, and I took up your offer =)

      The reason Martin’s story is taking him in a thousand different directions and seems (to quite a few readers) like a generally aimless and open-ended slog is probably because he just doesn’t know what to do anymore. How else can you explain the vastly different writing time intervals between the first three books and how much narrative ground those books covered compared to everything after the first three books? He knows there’s a city to the south called Rome, but he has no idea what Europe looks like and so he has no earthly idea how to get there. Since SoS, he has lost his way almost entirely. The last time he was able to piece together a full narrative within a book was in SoS; even FfC & DoD together aren’t really a full narrative, just the majority of one.

      I have a sinking feeling that when WoW finally comes out (big if), it’s not going to end where S6 did. It may fully intend to get there eventually, but GRRM is gonna spend half the book meandering again and the narrative will be maybe 2/3 through S6 by book’s end. And people will feel like the story’s gone almost nowhere, and there will be major backlash against GRRM.

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    27. Uzma,

      I agree, but thankfully to Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, season 8 wasn’t rushed, had no plot holes and it made absolutely sense.

      Season 1 is only so popular because it is 1 to 1 like the book and the book fans knew how the plot is. Keyword nostalgia

      People in this fandom just love to complain about anything that doesn’t go their way and when they dislike something they call it bad writing or plot hole.

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    28. kevin1989,

      I know that you refuse to accept that this fandom is hypocritical. I never thought that anything could ever surpass the Star Wars fandom, but unfortunately that’s not the case. You say my view about the fandom is far from reality but I disagree. I discussed with many people on YouTube and Reddit and I must admit that this fandom is even worse than I thought it is. Only hateful people who write nonsensical things and when you defend season 8 or even season 5, 6 and the Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss you get insulted.

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    29. The LightKing,

      Wow! Season 8 wasn’t rushed? The characters weren’t flying from one corner to another in seconds? Even fans who did love season 8 accept that it was rushed.

      And Season 1 was perfect because D&D followed the books. I meant to write season 8 and accidentally typed 1 instead. By the time I went to correct it, it told me I couldn’t correct it anymore.

      My guess is, in your opinion, Ser Axell Florent was more loyal to Stannis than Davos, That Axell was a “TRUE Follower”, because he blindly followed him and accepted everything, whereas Davos stood up and called Stannis wrong where he thought he needed to be criticized. No. Axell Florent was a sychophant. That’s not something a “True Follower” would do. To not criticize something even if it wasn’t perfect.

      When people invest their time and money on something, they have a right to criticize it too if they thought there was something wrong with it.

      I have always stood by D&D and have defended them up until S08E03, going so far as to ignore some of the storylines that I didn’t like (like killing Barristan Selmy, ruing Stannis’s and Dorne’s storyline).

      But after the last three episodes, I just couldn’t.

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    30. The LightKing,

      I think it’s best that folk just agree politely to disagree about the end of GoT the show. I’m sure someone has said that before. At least the two Ds gave us the ending – I don’t think the books ending when they (hopefully) appear will be vastly different from the show. I think Dany going full metal Targaryen DOES come from GRRM (the third plot twist he told the showrunners about in the meeting they had lest the show went past the already published books). I’m not saying the two Ds are perfect but if we are being honest neither is Mr Martin though I am grateful to him for creating this story (and will be even more grateful when it finishes). I read somewhere that Dany is supposed to spend much of WoW wandering with the Dothraki. I did like Book Ser Barristan but I was grateful that the two Ds speeded things up a bit. I know some folk say the meanderings of AFFC and ADWD will pay off in the end and if they do I will readily acknowledge that fact.

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    31. The LightKing,

      How is the fandom hypocritical?

      In one episode, One Dragon can’t fight 10 ships and runs away.
      In the next episode, that very dragon, in the very same situation attacks hundreds of ships and magically avoids every single one of them?

      Dany who is mad at Cersei, instead of killing Cersei, kills a lot of people Cersei doesn’t give a da*n about?

      Dany, who was just talking about Cersei and Euron just forgot about Euron in the next scene?

      Also, to make it look like Dany was starting to go mad, they showed that Tyrion and Varys were horrified that she killed traitors and didn’t show them any mercy, when every other single ruler has done the same in the past. Tyrion even had a man chopped and made into a soup.

      Varys who claims to care about the realm regularly plots dethrone a king/queen. Starting a war is to benefit the small folks? And he hadn’t even set foot in westeros until Aerys brought him from the free cities, and suddenly he only cares about the realm?

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    32. Does anyone know if the preview chapters of WoW are new chapters or chapters pushed back from ADWD? I read somewhere that they were the latter. I wasn’t that taken with the preview chapters as I’ve said before (my opinion). If (and I can’t be sure that it’s true) Dany is going to spend half of WoW traipsing round with the Dothraki then I’m not too keen on the idea of that. I don’t mind her travelling with the Dothraki – but not for half or most of a book (unless there are relatively few Dany chapters in WoW).

      Off topic – to those who commiserated with me over the death of my 16 year old cat last October, I have just adopted a 10 year old she-cat. I’m glad to have something good happen because I’d had a break-in just under a fortnight ago and am down a MacBook (admittedly a secondhand one).

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    33. Uzma,

      Season 8 wasn’t rushed, what are you talking about? The characters didn’t teleport. That’s simply not true.

      Of course season 1 was perfect. It followed the book and if something is not as in the books or it does not fit in your personal view and wishes then it is bad as you have just admitted it yourself.

      I bet if there weren’t any books and Game of Thrones was a pure creation of Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, then none would have complained about barristan, dorne or stannis.

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    34. Uzma,

      Daenerys was completely surprised and in shock. She had to get herself and Drogon to safety because everything was going so fast.

      It was a completely different situation in Kingslanding.
      1. Daenerys was prepared.
      2. A dragon can obviously fly very fast and as we have seen it takes several men to turn the scorpion and it also takes time to reload. That is an immense disadvantage.

      I want to remind you of Yoren from Season 2 Episode 3. What did he say again? “He never liked crossbows because it took so long to load them,” which is exactly the same as with Daenerys and the Iron Fleet. What is so difficult to understand about it?
      https://youtu.be/644yICFua_w

      3. Daenerys didn’t forget about Euron, she just didn’t expect it. She didn’t know that the ships were equipped with scorpions and that Euron would dare to attack them.

      4. Everything about the Dany tiwst was said. It makes perfect sense!

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    35. The LightKing,

      Dany forgetting about Euron aren’t my words. They are D&D’s. And I agree. IF there weren’t any books, and GOT was purely D&D’s creation, people probably wouldn’t have complained this much. But the truth remains. The books were GRRM’s creation and were brilliant, and as long as they followed the books, the show was perfect too. The plotholes started when they started going off-book. I still defended D&D because it was GRRM’s fault for not getting the books out on time until S08E03.

      And if D&D are as great without the books, I guess we’ll see it on their Netflix show about World War II. (That’s what I’ve heard)

      As for the crossbows, I agree that they take time to re-load. But they were already loaded. and were shot from all the directions. And Drogon was HUGE. It’s impossible to miss him when thousands of arrows fly at him from all directions.

      I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree here. It’s totally okay if you liked the ending and I didn’t. 🙂 I’ll wait for the books to get a properly developed ending, it doesn’t matter if it’s the same ending, at least it’d be properly explained.

      And GRRM has already said the ending will be different. We know Stannis won’t kill Shireen. It’s probably Mel and Selyse who will burn her at the Wall.

      I know Bran would be king but Bran seemed like one of the main and really important character in the books. He won’t be ignored or be less important as he was on the show.

      I still believe Maggy the Frog’s prophecy (about Valonqar) would come true and Jaime or Tyrion would Kill Cersei.

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    36. Iul,

      True, but that doesn’t excuse juvenile behavior. Disappointment is always a risk when you become a fan of a television show, book, or movie. I’ve been disappointed in several series finales, but I didn’t demand a redo. I simply moved on.

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    37. Hodor Hodorson,

      I thought the writing in season 8 was on par with the previous seasons, and I haven’t seen a well thought out argument to convince me otherwise. A lot of good shows have badass moments, but they, like GOT, don’t rely on them to be high quality.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Uzma,

      You are so very wrong. People disappointed in season 8 are complaining about the what, not the how. All you have to do is go onto YouTube, Reddit, IGN, etc. to see it. They wanted the White Walkers to be the final threat, wanted Jon to kill the Night King, wanted Danerys to be queen, wanted Jon to be king, wanted Jaime and Brienne to be together, etc. True fans would support a show that stayed true to its story and characters, like GOT did, rather than criticize it for not resembling their fan fiction.

      Words like plot hole and rushed are misused so often by this fandom, they have lost all meaning. Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed, and I’m willing to bet you don’t know what a plot hole really is.

      Yes, some fans were so aggressive that they issued death threats against D&D. You find that understandable?

        Quote  Reply

    39. Uzma,

      Fast travel has always existed in this show since season 1. Rushing has to do with story, not travel times. Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed.

      Many of the changes D&D made were for the better.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Uzma,

      Danerys had just lost Rhaegal and her army was being ambushed. She needed to retreat in order to regroup.

      Danerys was mad at the citizens of King’s Landing too. She was expecting them to fall in love with her and rise up against Cersei. They didn’t, so she declared them to be “not innocent.”

      Danerys didn’t forget about the Iron Fleet. She discussed it that very episode. She was ambushed, plain and simple.

      Robb took prisoners without executing for not bending the knee. Hell, even the Lannisters took prisoners. The Tarlys were defeated. They were no longer a threat. Not only did she burn Lord Tarly alive, but his son as well.

      Finding a great ruler that would bring the realm together would benefit the Seven Kingdoms greatly and is worth the cost of war.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Uzma,

      It doesn’t matter what D&D say. All that matters is what is presented in the show. In the show, Danerys was ambushed. There is no indication she forgot about the Iron Fleet.

      The first three books were brilliant, but unfortunately, the books went way downhill. Feast and Dance were simply terrible and could very well have obliterated any chance Martin would finish his story. The show, on the other hand, has maintained its quality for the full eight seasons.

      Martin said the main plot points will be the same, but the road getting there will be different. I guess we can take some solace in that, but it would be a much better read if I didn’t already know the ending.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Uzma,

      “I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is going to be that different from my ending…”

      🙄

      Assuming that GRRM ever even finishes WoW (which becomes increasingly unlikely the more I look at how his writing has been going since SoS), I think it’s safe to assume Stannis is not gonna be a player in ASOIAF’s endgame. He’s going to burn his daughter, and D&D have said that twist is from the big man himself. Stannis is gonna die at Winterfell, or shortly thereafter. Probably not personally executed by Brienne, but still, he’s not leaving the North alive.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Uzma,

      At Dragonstone, Drogon was charging them straight on and would’ve gotten killed if he hadn’t flown away. At KL, Drogon waited for just the right moment, flew out of the sun so the ships couldn’t aim for shit, and dive-bombed from above so even if any ship could see him, they couldn’t aim high enough to hit him. Adding to that: the scorpions are super heavy and take forever to reload. And with every scorpion Drogon takes out, the danger decreases. And once Drogon was in their midst, the fight became close range, where the long-range ballistas are at an immense disadvantage – no time to aim before Drogon’s right in your face blowing your shit up.

      Dany’s decision to torch KL had virtually nothing to do with Cersei; she was doomed anyway, and Dany’s thoughts were far beyond anger at just one person. Besides, the soldiers surrendered, and the civilians had to (not that they had any authority in the matter), but Cersei herself never did. She didn’t give any order to have the bells rung.

      So, from mentioning the Iron Fleet a few times weeks earlier, Dany was supposed to expect that Dragonstone, her ancestral stronghold and safe haven, was going to be hiding a mini Ironborn fleet armed to the teeth with new-and-improved ballistas? Still makes more sense than when Stannis kinda forgot about Tywin, who was at Harrenhal 2 days away from KL with tens of thousands of Lannister troops, and did absolutely nothing to hinder Tywin’s potential reinforcement in any way. And that stuff with Tyrion and the soup – when the fuck did that ever happen in the show?

      Please look up the word “traitor” in a dictionary. Then ask yourself: how the fuck were the Tarlys traitors? Did they side with Dany and betray her? No, they already had a queen. Rewatch that scene between Tyrion and Varys in 7×5 – Tyrion is clearly on the defensive. What else could Dany do with Randyll? Idk… maybe… not burn him alive alongside his son? Even the maesters, who are very impartial to everything (too impartial when it came to the WW), were horrified, as any sane people would be. Tyrion quickly acknowledges the immorality of Dany’s actions and confronts her later: “Perhaps the father needed to die and not the son. Perhaps they both needed time to contemplate their mistakes in the solitude of a cold cell. There was no time to discuss their possibilities before you ended their possibilities.”

      So what if Varys grew up in the Free Cities? So did Shae and Talisa, and like them, he holds no allegiance to his home city. Varys has been going on and on about his loyalty to the realm and the people since like S1. Where were your complaints then?

        Quote  Reply

    44. Farimer123: Please look up the word “traitor” in a dictionary. Then ask yourself: how the fuck were the Tarlys traitors?

      It kind of depends on who you ask.

      The Tarly’s betrayed the Tyrells. All of the lords of the reach owed fealty to the Tyrells.

      However, the Tarly’s were also being loyal to the person sitting on the throne in King’s Landing, Cersei.

      However, Cersei crowned herself queen without going through the usual succession plan at the time, so her legitimacy as queen was certainly debatable.

      In the end, Randyll did what he did because of the opportunity for personal gain.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Mr Derp,

      The Tarly oaths of fealty to the Crown undoubtedly superseded their oaths of fealty to the Tyrells.

      And just what was the usual succession plan at the time? She was Robert’s Baratheon’s lawful wife. His children were all dead, as were his brothers, so Cersei as the next-in-line makes sense. There was literally no other option in the family.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Farimer123: And just what was the usual succession plan at the time? She was Robert’s Baratheon’s lawful wife. His children were all dead, as were his brothers, so Cersei as the next-in-line makes sense. There was literally no other option in the family.

      She was announced as Cersei of House Lannister, not Baratheon, so she did not take the crown in the Baratheon name.

      This should’ve caused quite a bit of chaos in Westeros. However, everyone was strangely ok with what Cersei did.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Farimer123,

      Cersei destroyed the Sept of Baelor and killed the peoples’ beloved High Sparrow. Given how poorly the people were treated and how invested they seemed to be in the High Sparrow to make their lives better, his murder should’ve created some kind of uprising from the people, IMO. Or, at the very least, Cersei should’ve been much more unpopular than she ended up being. However, it didn’t seem to have any affect. If you recall in season 6, Jaime actually cancelled his plan to stop the High Sparrow because he was afraid of a rebellion from the common people. Why didn’t the people have this same attitude after the HS died?

      Normally, the citizens of KL don’t care about the games that the high lords play, but maybe they should start caring, considering it affects who’s ruling over their lives. I thought their reaction to the death of the High Sparrow should’ve been different. He was the only champion of the common people that obtained enough power to actually do something about the situation. Of course, he abused his authority too, but the common people loved the High Sparrow. The Sept of Baelor was also considered a sacred place. It was strange that there was little to no reaction to his death from the common people. That’s really what I mean when I say everyone was strangely ok with what she did. Cersei took out the common people’s perceived best hope for change, yet nothing happened as a result.

      Most of the kingdoms that she didn’t control really had no interest in taking out Cersei.

      The North had no interest in taking out Cersei. They were interested in their own independence. They obviously didn’t approve of what Cersei did, but they weren’t going to do anything about it.

      The Vale also could care less about Cersei.

      The only ones that wanted to actively get rid of Cersei were the Reach and Dorne, both of which didn’t want to do anything until Dany came along.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Farimer123,

      And I’m glad you took up that offer. 😀

      But if he doesn’t know what to do anymore, how did he tell D&D what will happen in the next 2 books? The show was based on the storyline of the books if I’m not mistaken. So it seems that GRRM knows where he wants to go with his story, or did the show just invent things and are we getting another ending in the books? I mean stating he doesn’t know and that the books and show have the same ending seems to contradict itself.
      About does he know where he wanted to go with his books? I think the first 2 books are a given that he does indeed, he even set up the storylines of Dorne, Iron Island and Young Griff there even when they were not yet introduced yet.

      As for why he takes that long, he already have that answer: He is busy with other projects.
      Do I agree with his work-attics: No, but what can I do about it, we still need to wait no matter how we feel about this.
      Back to the question you state why it took that long after book 3. Well book 4 is a given with this. He started writing the books with a 5 year gap, I don’t know how many manuscripts he had written but it was quit a lot. So he already almost was on schedule, then problem 1 occurred: at least one storyline didn’t work with the 5 year gab, who knows which one that is, I personally don’t really care. So he changed his plan to not show those stories through flashbacks but we really will see them. So he started writing Feast again, but he found out that he already had to many pages, so the split happen. The time for Feast is explained.
      Now Dance, here he got 2 problems the first is, what to do with Dany when everyone is getting towards her, but he solved that. The second is, because Feast was the shortest book, we got the problem of the ending of Dance, so he needed to solve that problem, where to cut every storyline, I suspect he even alter some parts.
      Now Winds, as he state he had too many projects. And I think the same problem occurred which occurred in Dance, those 200/300 page ending.
      The thing with Feast and Dance is that there is indeed a narrative, but the amount of storylines doubled. So that means that the narrative takes 2 times as long.
      As for SoS, I don’t understand why people keep telling that the narrative was much better in that book than Feast of Dragon. Look at for instance Arya, how many chapters did she get in those 2 books, and how far has her story progressed. She is pretty far into her training which suppose to take years. Compare that too SoS where she took 4 chapters to get to Beric. Or Sansa and Tyrion which got their storyline only at the end of the book, first was only about: The marriage.

      My suspect is that Winds end roughly where season 6 ended but not fully. I suspect that Dany will go to Westeros but she will not arrive till dream. Jon will be back at Winterfell and alive preparing for the dead. The wall needs to fall at the end of Winds as the cliff for the last book. So there is where the books are faster. Kings Landing storyline has already have a resolve. The Lannister storyline is over. Arya is back in Westeros.
      The thing with Martin is, he has 2 types of chapters: The fast one, Arya, Sansa are examples of the last 2 books, few chapters big leaps. And slow chapters, like Dany or Jon in dream.

      But first winds need to get out, so we need to wait a while is my guess.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Farimer123,

      I think she will be responsible, but the clues are already given. Why do you think Feast and Dance prepare us that Euron (one into Dark magic) will get his hands on a dragon?
      And my money is on that the woman Damphair saw in chains by Euron in his vision is in fact Vyserion. Remember Euron on the Iron Throne was in that vision.

      But this would have been too much fantasy for the show, as D&D already stated, they didn’t want to much fantasy in the show. (which if we take that the books will indeed go that way, the city is torched by Euron’s control of a Dragon by dark magic, and the consensus of the people is that Daenerys is too blame, it is her dragon and she torched the city. And D&D needed to solve the fantasy problem that occurred here, no dark magic in the show. They needed to eliminate the magic element of that twist. Meaning no Euron taking control of a dragon. The only logical way would be that Dany herself torch the city to get to the same ending.)

      The books will be more fantasy in the end, Martin even stated we get lots of Fantasy creatures (With a horror vibe of course in his books), we got Krakens already confirmed in the books, and we even get Unicorns (I suspect a horrific version of a Unicorn, not the sweet kind, and it will be of course at Skagos).

      But if the books will indeed go with Dark Dany, I wouldn’t mind at all, she is not really a fan-favorite of mine, and I couldn’t care less that she will die in the end. The only thing I find interesting with her is her strange memory in the first book that occurred again the fifth. But then I wonder if the books will indeed not go to Dark Dany, how will you look at this, with the knowledge that Martin doesn’t read what is said online, and doesn’t change his plans so this was already his plan from the beginning. Will you still love his way if it’s done right, or would you directly hate it because it was different from the show?

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    50. That wasn’t a petition, it was a temporary brainfart started by hate-infused hobos who were probably mad because they couldn’t rent a dragon as the local Walmart…

      Yeah…

        Quote  Reply

    51. The LightKing,

      I don’t go to Youtube or Reddit, so I really don’t care about what they say there. I only go on this site and on this site people aren’t hypocritical. So probably out there there are fans who overreact how bad season 8 was, but that’s not here on WotW, at least not with the die-hard people who comment here.
      But at the same time I saw here some stuff from people who loved the show that I really had shaken my head, where people who even state 1 problem with season 8, got personally attacked and called names (like: hater or other things). And I’m still astonish that some feel that famous people are above others, they can’t be professional criticize, but the average Joe can be called whatever for stating they didn’t like the last season.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Dame of Mercia,

      From DoD except the Arya chapter if I remember right and maybe the Damphair.
      As for Dany I suspect her journey to Vaes Dothrak will be different. She has Drogon next to her when she meets with the Dothraki at the end of Dance. She will ride him, the biggest horse they have ever seen (for comparison), I suspect that they will directly follow her.
      Why does she goes to Vaes Dothrak: I suspect because of her visions. To go forward you need to go back. I suspect she will learn something there about her past (and future). (and to get her people of course). So I suspect she will get 2 or 3 chapters before she will be back in Meereen. But I suspect she will return just after the battle is won.

      And I’m happy you get a new companion. Is he or she already settled and at ease at your home?

      Uzma,

      Well the thing is, my friend and partner never read the books and even they state season 5 till 8 were below par compared to the first 4. I was the one that state that it was not that bad and keep on talking about GoT to them (till it drove them insane XD).

      the only thing that I know is that Benioff wrote a book, that the Last of Us (my favorite game) took inspiration from, which for me Benioff gets praise that he made the Last of Us possible because of it.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Young Dragon,

      I don’t agree with it, for instance with the taking of Winterfell they could have come up with an interesting plot that didn’t involve a battle. Their focus in season 5 and 8 was: To get bigger. It was even hyped that way, the biggest battle is coming, GoT filmed the longest battle, GoT is the first TV show to get a battle of this scale.
      Do I like the battles yes, they are amazingly done visually. But I personally am not a action person. I like the characters and the unique way of telling the story.

      Many shows fall into the action-trap eventually. The problem only with: Bigger. Is that at one point it gets too big for it’s own good. Supernatural is an example of that, which the end villain sounds great on paper but in the end I’m not feeling it (when I felled the villain of season 5 if you watch the show you know who, I felled more, and also this villain is even more daring than what GoT did with Dany

      The end villain is god himself, so you could understand that it get’s a lot of hate even from people who don’t watch the show attack the show because of it.

      ).

        Quote  Reply

    54. Young Dragon,

      We have to agree to disagree then. You have your view, I have mine. I respect yours.

      Young Dragon,

      As stated before, season 8 was slow paced. The prove is: How long does it take for 1 scene or 1 segment of scenes. Episode 8×02 is already prove of slow pace. The fireplace scene. Or the after party that took 30+ minutes. If it was fast paced the after party would have been max 5 minutes. Same with the burning of KL would have had a 5 minute scene for a fast paced season. It was not fast paced, it was slow paced.
      Season 2 is fast paced, many short scenes, but many of short scenes in the season.

      So the only thing is, is it rushed yes or no, with rushed the problem lies in the glue of the story. It doesn’t focus on that glue that holds everything together, for the people who didn’t have the problem the season is not rushed, for the once that did it is rushed.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Farimer123,

      Well I put my money on that Stannis won’t burn his daughter. Stannis is close at winterfell. If the Bolton’s indeed win (like the show), Stannis can’t burn his daughter because he is death. And if he wins (which is not in the show), he could probably burn his daughter.

      But why it’s already a given that he has nothing to do with it is the following:
      1. Patchface: stating he will take Shireen under the sea. My 2 cents is that he saw Shireen death in a vision.
      2. Before Jon got Stabbed, Mellisandre is gone, so is Shireen, and a tower is burning (the one of the Lord Commanders if I remember right). I bet that here Shireen is being sacrificed in that fire.

      And GRRM didn’t state that Stannis burning Shireen is one of his twists. He state Shireen will be burned to death. He never state who was responsible.

      Mr Derp,

      Somehow Cersei forgot she was a Baratheon. (By marriage)

        Quote  Reply

    56. kevin1989,

      Didn’t you say you wanted the war with the White Walkers to contain several battles, not just one? Maybe I’m misremembering. And no, when you’re setting up a major conflict between the greatest army Westeros has ever seen and an all powerful, supernatural enemy, you need to have a battle worthy of such a conflict.

      The Long Night was a massive accomplishment. I don’t think they were trying to hold on to their audience, I think they were patting themselves on the back.

      I agree about Supernatural. Season 5 was my favorite.

        Quote  Reply

    57. kevin1989,

      It’s not an opinion when the poster you agree with is spouting falsehoods. He said fans were perfectly fine with the ending but criticized how we got there. That isn’t true. He said season 8 is rushed. That isn’t true. He said season 8 was full of plot holes and is illogical. That isn’t true.

      Now I’m confused. First, you call season 8 rushed and now you’re calling it slow paced? No, pace has nothing to do with scenes, but with how fast the story progresses. In season 8, the story progressed really fast and was therefore fast paced.

        Quote  Reply

    58. kevin1989,

      I have often pointed out that my view about the fandom is based on discussions from Youtube and Reddit and not from this site. Since you are not reading comments on youtube and reddit you can not understand what I mean. Now I avoid youtube and reddit because my soul can’t handle it anymore. I am looking forward to my rewatch then I will make my final judgment of every season and episode.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Young Dragon,

      No, I said I wished it was resolved in a couple of episodes, not perse per battle. More episodes doesn’t mean more action.

      And depends, the WW problem could also resolve in another way that is not focus on one big battle. Ending the big bad in an battle fashion is always the most easy and mediocre way to end a villain. Yes there should be some action. But there should be a way to end the WW conflict that is a bit more unique compared to other stories, this is not a Marvel show. So for me I rather had 2 battles of 20 minutes than one big of 80. Where those 2 of 20 could contain a bit more “something we never see before in another movie/series.”

      And if Martin also end his WW story through big battle I will be very disappointed in Martin himself. If it’s just the same old trope as always used.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Young Dragon,

      1. The fans on this site were fine with the ending, but not the way it got there. Many expressed that, and you can’t try to twist their opinions to make a point, that doesn’t make it true what you state. Of course out there there are people who indeed complain about the What, but the majority is the how. Why do you think that many people write things like: If they made Dany’s decline like this, or 2 seasons it would have stuck and be great.
      2. Well see above, season 8 is indeed rushed. And slow paced. (not fast paced as many seem to think, for that I would advice to look into the difference between slow paced and fast paced. Shows like sopranos are slow paced, shows like Supernatural fast paced. And how fast does the plot moved with that fast paced show? Not that fast isn’t it, still it’s a fast paced show how it’s written.
      3. Well there were plotholes but I’m not going to recite the list again and over and over again. Even above there was one given about Drogon almost die one moment with 2 or 3 bolts at one time, and the next he evade 100s. (more a continue error than a plothole), there were also plotholes about events from the past that were wrongly recited in season 8, like they forgot what happened in season 1 till 7.
      4. Yes pace has exactly to do with the scenes.
      https://www.writersdigest.com/writing-articles/by-writing-goal/improve-my-writing/7-tools-for-pacing-a-novel-keeping-your-story-moving-at-the-right-pace
      Go to the part about scenes: SHORT CHAPTERS AND SCENES. Short segments are easily digested and end quickly. Since they portray a complete action, the reader passes through them quickly, as opposed to being bogged down by complex actions and descriptions.
      Short segments, end quickly.
      That means not a scene of 30 minutes. That’s not fast paced, but slow paced.

      And the rest also tells what season 8 brought that it was not fast paced. It clearly states short scenes, many after each other. That we got a whole episodes as build up for a battle, and a whole episode of 80 minutes of a battle, already showed it was not fast paced.

      A slow paced story can still progressed fast narratively: Peaky Blinders for instance. Only contain 6 episodes for a whole season. And a whole storyline unfolds there, with a big changes compared to the one before. Still every episode has a slow paced storytelling.

      The LightKing,

      Best thing to do is just ignore. I can’t understand if we have a problem with some extremes we keep giving them a reason to become important. Just ignore those YT guys and Reddit guys, are they worth it? Better stay here and have a civil debate with mutual respect. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    61. Uzma,

      From one corner. They literally showed them trave6to Dragonstone. They were at Winterfell, Dragonstone, and Kings Landing. The first 4 episodes were mostly in one location. Season 8 was paced way better than season 7.

        Quote  Reply

    62. kevin1989, the cat is reasonably well settled but she’s not really a lap cat though she does like to be stroked.

      There was someone on Reddit who thought anyone who found merit in season 8 was a low-tier fan (or they were low-tier fans – I’m going from memory). I haven’t noticed people who were okay with the show ending being acidic to the same degree though maybe I didn’t come across the worst pro-show ending comments. When it became obvious that at least some of the fandom disliked the ending of GoT and read what some people were saying I knew I hadn’t lost my marbles.

      Pigeon,

      Considering that if he were a real life person James Bond would be over 100 years of age now, I think it is time he took retirement.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Pigeon,

      Considering that if he were a real life person James Bond would be over 100 years of age now, I think it is time he took retirement.

      Agreed, although granted Jimmy B isn’t the same “person” with each incarnation, but I’m about done with it as well. To be fair, I love Daniel Craig and prior to him didn’t really pay much attention, but seriously Bond must have superhuman joints or something. I’d also be happy if the Marvel universe went away now, and Disney remakes too, but we don’t always get what we want in life. 🎻

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    64. Dame of Mercia,

      I have my reasons why I think season 8, was great while many other people just repeat something they saw in a youtube video. Dragon Demands, Preston, Ideas of Ice and Fire, it is obvious that these guys hate the show and Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss and want to turn as many people as possible against the show. I never saw something like that in any other fandom.

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    65. Farimer123,

      It doesn’t work that way. The Tarlys’ oath to the king only works via the oath of the Tyrells. If the Tyrells break their fealty to the throne, the Tarlys are obliged to follow.
      Of course that is an ideal situation. Any of the lords might withdraw their fealty and support one or the other contestant. In this case, since the Tyrells broke their faith and the Tarlys didn’t follow, they betrayed their overlords, but the Tyrells didn’t win, so the Tarlys found themselves on the winning side and reaped the fruit of their betrayal (Sam’s dad was named Warden by Cersei).

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    66. Dame of Mercia,

      I think the Cat will enjoy his stay with you 😀

      As for those reddit-fans, personally I don’t see them as fans, else they wouldn’t have the need to tell some are not fans. Same counts otherwise, I remember somebody on this site who doesn’t go here anymore, I’m not going to give a name but I think many know who I’m talking about, stated that anyone who didn’t think season 8 was perfect isn’t a real fan of the show. He even stated that a fan would love it all and would not have a single complained about the show. That extreme is on both ends of the spectrum, unfortunately both groups have the bigger stage and are noticed more than the average fan who is just more moderate at their opinion. And when somebody attacks the writers personally or other fans I won’t take them serious anymore.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Mr Derp,

      Cersei destroyed the Sept of Baelor and killed the peoples’ beloved High Sparrow.

      Well, seeing as there was no National Board of Inquiry into the matter, who exactly determined that Cersei was responsible? She lost her uncle when the Sept fell, after all. Her last child also died that day, so if she was responsible, the Seven surely punished her. There can be as many opinions about this as there are drunken tavern-dwellers.

      The people whom the High Sparrow championed were drifters and other hopeless charity cases, not the hard-working masses or guildsmen or other solid citizens of King’s Landing. (He actually seemed to despise craftsmen, even — or perhaps because — he had once been a successful one.) Furthermore, the Sparrows were dim and arrogant fanatics, who actually made life worse for many persons in the city. There’s no evidence shown on-screen that any working people liked having the Sparrows around, or missed the Sparrows after their own gods failed to protect them. (Note how Baelish’s taunting, insulting condemnation of the Sparrows sailed right over Brother Lancel’s thick muscle-head.)

        Quote  Reply

    68. The LightKing:
      Dame of Mercia,

      I have my reasons why I think season 8, was great while many other people just repeat something they saw in a youtube video. Dragon Demands, Preston, Ideas of Ice and Fire, it is obvious that these guys hate the show and Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss and want to turn as many people as possible against the show. I never saw something like that in any other fandom.

      • Speaking only for myself, I felt some parts of S8 were great and some were not. That I may have been somewhat disappointed that the show didn’t conclude with its “best ever” episodes did not erase all of the enjoyment I had watching 73 episodes over eight seasons. (At some other time I may use as an analogy my favorite baseball player’s MVP season to describe what I mean.)

      • As for other sites and sources you mentioned, there’s no shortage of vitriol on the internet. Some other sites (I won’t name them) are essentially troll farms for anonymous circle-jerking armchair quarterbacks to spew venom, as opposed to engaging in civil discussions with thoughtful criticism (like we do here).

      That “Dragon Demands” guy sometimes makes cogent observations, but they’re buried in and obscured by overly long videos in which he: repeats the same criticisms over and over (e.g., that the showrunners were preoccupied with the actors’ facial expressions, rather than their dialogue); goes out of his way to remind everyone that he edits the GoT Wiki; and can’t seem to resist taking personal potshots against the showrunners. I’ve tried to slog through some of these hour+ videos without success. After listening for a while, they just become a cacophony of venting and bloviating, and I get a f*cking headache.

      While there are a handful of reviewers that provide balanced, thoughtful assessments of the show, too many of the videos on YouTube are diatribes with variations of the same one-sided themes: “The show sucked!” or “D&D are hacks who butchered [“GRRM’s masterpiece”] or [insert character’s name here].“ It gets tiresome.

      Just once, I’d like to see one of these self-professed “experts” who thinks he or she could have done a better job, write his or her own scripts and post them online for the fandom to critique.

      P.S.:
      • For what it’s worth – as many of us have stated in the past – the showrunners were hampered by the unexpected absence of source material once they passed the books; they had signed on to adapt GRRM’s saga, not finish it for him.

      • I have also come to suspect that as the show became a worldwide phenomenon (and the budget and expectations increased), the two already-weary showrunners had taken on too many responsibilities, e.g., producing, supervising, budgeting, and scriptwriting. In hindsight, perhaps they should have delegated some of those responsibilities.

      Hiring a team of talented writers to staff an expanded writers’ room, instead of relying on themselves (and to a lesser extent, Cogman and Hill) to write scripts, might have avoided the “echo chamber effect” that often creeps in when writers are in their own bubble and there’s nobody around to inject fresh perspectives – or to spot supposed “plot holes,” continuity problems, and the dreaded (and often undeserved) criticism of “lazy writing.”

      I can surely understand why they would want to retain full control instead of farming out tasks to others. After all, they had created the most popular, most critically acclaimed TV series on the planet. Who can argue with success? Why not go with what got you there?

      On the other hand, who wouldn’t be physically drained and creatively exhausted after nearly a decade of producing a show on time and within budget, year after year? It’d be understandable if they wound up cutting narrative corners, overlooking logical gaps, resorting to cliches, and relying on “spectacle,” without realizing the resulting changed in the tenor and allure of the show.

      There are aspects of the final seasons with which I was not thrilled, e.g., dredging up the cliched “mothership” device (killing the alien leader deactivates all of his drones) as the key to defeating the WWs; turning Bran into a weird bystander whose superpowers (and Sam’s book smarts) weren’t critical in defeating the AotD; the silly wight hunt plan and the equally silly S7 LF vs. Arya vs. Sansa plot; neutering Jon Snow; draining Tyrion and Varys of their intelligence and eloquence; cutaways before long-awaited reveals; and anything involving that cackling clown Euron.

      Still, those “misfires” were outweighed by the aspects I thought were well-done. I also have to acknowledge that the showrunners did not have the luxury of rewriting scripts or re-shooting scenes that “didn’t work” – unlike a novelist with unlimited time to revise, edit, or start from scratch.

      I have to assume that like in any human endeavor, especially in the arts, it’s unrealistic to expect anyone to stay at the top of his or her game and keep cranking out top-notch work product year after year. [Off-topic example: I remember when my music aficionado older brother, who didn’t stop raving about Fleetwood Mac’s “Rumors” album, burned their follow-up album “Tusk” in our backyard because it was so awful. But I digress.🤐]

      Isn’t it only reasonable to expect that the showrunners couldn’t keep firing on all cylinders, especially after they had to fabricate from scratch the “connective tissue” between where the source material left off, and the pre-determined ending GRRM had imparted to them years earlier?

      Even the author himself has apparently run out of creative steam, or for whatever reason, has been unable or unwilling to wrap up his story (for… how many years has it been?)

      Bottom line: I’m not so sure it’s worth debating any further whether S8 was “br****nt” or disappointing. It can be neither – or both.

      – End Rambling –
      (Sorry…)

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    69. Farimer123,

      kevin1989,

      Thanks!

      Kevin’s analogy about the show and the books taking different routes to the same destination was apt. And with George knowing the ultimate destination but not having figured out how to get there after all this time, I wondered if he ought to have tried to map out his sprawling story – to avoid going off on extended detours or getting lost wandering down side roads. (Some book readers feel he’s lost his way and can’t find a way to get back on track.)

      From there, I couldn’t help but remember Sandor & Arya snarking in S4e3 [link below]*, i.e., Sandor admitting he wasn’t quite sure where they were, only that they were “far” from their destination – and Arya suggesting maybe he should get a map.

      * (First 1 minute and 12 seconds of this 6 minutes, 21 seconds scene in S4e3: Arya & Sandor; & Farmer and his daughter aka Rabbit Stew Sally)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXZi0mdAbM

      Admittedly, that entire 6 min., 21 second segment is one of my favorites. I’ve watched it so many times that the dialogue is etched on my brain. In addition, the encounter with the farmer and his daughter and how it ended – with Sandor, the “Worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms!,” justifying robbing the farmer because “they’ll both be dead come winter” and “dead men don’t need silver” – resonated throughout the rest of the show, including scenes in S4e10, S5e6, S7e1, S8e1, S8e2, and S8e4.

      Anyway, Sandor proceeding without a map and not quite knowing where they were, only that their destination was “far” away, seemed like an appropriate metaphor for GRRM’s predicament. I didn’t have to change too much of the dialogue. 😎

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    70. kevin1989,

      It’s classic fantasy convention to have a final battle for the future of humanity; and GRRM is indeed a fantasy writer. He picks and chooses which conventions to obey and which ones to ignore. He really likes LOTR, and he’s said he wants his ending to be sorta like it, complete with a “Scouring of the Shire” after the big final battle. We got that in the show in the form of 8×4-8×6.

      Remember, GRRM did tell D&D the broad strokes and major beats (GRRM might know what’s going to happen but he has no idea how to go about it, imo). If “the WW force their way south of the wall, make it as far as Winterfell, have a giant battle, and are defeated there” isn’t a broad stroke/major beat, then what is?

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    71. Ten Bears,

      I’m almost 100% certain that GRRM has totally lost his way. I say this because *we’ve seen* what it looks like when the writing of ASOIAF is going smoothly: three excellent solid books, well over 2K pages combined, with so much narrative ground and twists and turns covered, basically the first half of the story originally planned for six books, hammered out in just six years.

      If he wanted to have the story relax and sprawl out more in its second half, then of course some more time between each book would be natural. But then it took five years for FFC alone, then another six years for ADOD alone, and together those two books cover roughly the same amount of narrative ground that one of previous books did. That’s a 550% increase in writing time for each full-cast-spanning narrative!

      And he’s splitting books because of plot problems and length problems, missing deadline after deadline after deadline, and his intentional focus on anything else besides ASOIAF. It’s so obvious: something went seriously awry for GRRM in writing this series after the early 2000s, and his heart’s just not that into it anymore. It’s self-evident from his sprawling, subplot/detour-filled writing approach in the last two books: he’d much rather just explore the world leisurely than advance the plot to the endgame proper.

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    72. Ten Bears,

      You make some very good points about the fact that the shworunners could’ve been burned out and maybe should’ve hired some more writers to help them bear the burden.

      On the other hand, the same argument can be used against that claim. If they were indeed burned out, they would’ve hired other writers to take away some of the workload from them – they could’ve done that and still be the showrunners that get most of the merit! Yet, they preferred to keep doing what they wanted to do from the beginning: write the series by themselves! I can only applaud them for reaming committed to the project.

      Similarly, you could use the same argument to say that GRRMartin SHOULD hire other writers to help him out, since he’s also burned out. Why is it OK for a book writer to keep writing the book by himself and not OK for a couple of showrunners to keep writing the series by themselves?

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    73. Ten Bears,

      Thank you.

      But I think George has some kind of road map in his head. The same route map he told D&D that they used for the show. The only thing is that George tells his story through his characters and doesn’t want the “Character X acts stupid now to get to plotpoint B”. So he needs to make a detour to get that character to get to that plotpoint logically.

      As for the “He lost his way”. The thing is all those that people state he has “lost his way” was already set-up in book 1 and 2. Dorne was set-up with Myrcella getting there, and once again in book 3 that we know that we would go there once Oberyn was dead, everyone that though that we wouldn’t see Myrcella and the aftermath of Oberyn’s dead is not paying attention. Especially when Doran was make so mysterious in the third book (Tywin told Doran was the only man he feared, Tywin didn’t fear Oberyn).
      Iron Island was also set-up in the first 3 books. We saw background with Theon about his uncles and his sister. We got the 3 leeches scene, in book 3 there was told that something was happening in the Iron Islands but we didn’t read it yet. It was set-up. Everyone who read book 1 till 3 knew this storyline was coming.
      Many other stories were also set-up in the first 3 books like Young Griff and Jon Connington, with my reread I saw many hints that this storyline was always happening. House of the Undying was one of them.
      LSH was also revealed at the end of book 3 so we knew she was getting into play, Brienne with merely 5 chapters got to the point where LSH was a big player in the books. (compare that to for instance Arya that had in SoS that many state is narrative tight was traveling for 4 or 5 chapters to meet Beric)
      And that also count for many storylines where people say he took detours, they were set-up in previous books.

      As for my point about “martin lost his way”, the only way he lost in my book was that split he did those 2 books. Reason was: So both books could have a beginning middle end for character X. Well that’s true for feast, but not for Dance, he pushed the problem to a next book. I think he could have better have had a feast that ended halfway through every storyline, and had ended Dance with where he original ended things. Especially with some characters there were more than one break point that could have happened.

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    74. Farimer123,

      But is this story classic or something new and unique? And true there is always a battle, but there was also that the big baddie wasn’t defeated by “killing one guy and kill them all”. There was always a way to end the big baddie that wasn’t part of the battle. Harry Potter had the “love protection” & the reveal of the deadly hallows & Snape, the battle focused on that not the battle itself. Lord the rings didn’t end in a battle the battle was 15 minutes before. It ended in a non-battle fashion.
      And if you want to know how martin does it, I suggest you to read all his books. I read them all (except the ones from the last 3 years), Sandsnakes (small story), Dying of the light are for instance 2 that Martin shows how he ends his stories and his villains.
      GRRM is not a fantasy writer, if you say that you only have read asoiaf. He has written drama, fantasy, science fiction, horror and more. What these stories have all in common is the mystery, character driven storytelling, and that every story has a way to make the mystery a bit horrific. He has indeed a theme in his books, but that is not ending with a battle.

      He said he wanted to end like lotr as in: Bittersweet. He didn’t talk about that he wanted a scouring of the shire. He even state that he missed the whole “Tax policy” in the LotR. So expect that we see the king rule in the books.

      Everyone knows that GRRM told D&D the broader strokes, he also stated the journey’s to those strokes would be different. And it doesn’t matter what we think what takes GRRM to finish it’s books. It matters what GRRM tells us what the reason is, which he did (other projects), so we can all speculate about why, but 80% of us is wrong with the many speculations that is happening.

      The major beats is that the wall will fall and the WW get south. Battle with the WW. Defeat of the WW. You could fill that in 100 ways.

      Look for instance at the broad stroke: Cersei’s capture and walk of shame, and how we got there. Or how Tyrion meets Dany which is much later in the books. Or jaime leaving Cersei which is later in the books.

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    75. Off topic but referencing franchises or acts which it wouldn’t hurt to retire – I heard on the news that the Rolling Stones are going to do some touring again this year. Now I’m from the age group that was around when the Stones were the band one’s parents used to hate but even in the early 2000s a UK paper featured an article “Would you let your grandma go with a Rolling Stone?” (in my youth it was “Would you let your daughter go with a Rolling Stone?” – not that I mixed in such circles to ever get a chance to meet a Rolling Stone). I groaned at the idea of the Stones touring but it’s a free world and if people want to see them it’s not my place to tell them shouldn’t buy tickets for the concerts.

      Now back to ASOIAF. Kevin, I think GRRM is illogical sometimes. I mean book Gendry never tells LS that he had been in touch with Arya. A commenter said that Gendry didn’t know LS all that well but still, couldn’t he (Gendry) have mentioned it? Book Doran was the mastermind who was so intelligent he never told his daughter what his marriage plans for her were. Littlefinger in his book and show manifestations has the reputation of having something of Machiavelli about him but was everybody in Kings Landing so thick that they couldn’t see through him? Not even Tyrion?

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    76. kevin1989,

      -About the Iron Islands/Dorne being set up in the first three books: you’re right, but nobody says Martin has lost his way because he introduced those subplots. The argument is that he lost his way because of HOW he handled those subplots. There was no need to have several POV characters for each of these subplots, nor for that many chapters. One single POV character could’ve done it. Or instead, an existing POV character could’ve travelled there (the way the show did with Jaime going to Dorne or Theon going to the Iron Islands). Or he could’ve used a prologue character to handled all that in a single chapter (which he tried to do, actually).
      My point is, you could still use those suplots that were set up in the previous books without needlessly complicating the narrative by introducing many new POV characters who demand their own chapters and their own sub-subplots.

      -About Arya’s many meandering chapters in book 3. It’s all about how the storylines are balanced. ASOS is very fast paced because there are many storylines that advance significantly in a very short time. On the contrary, some of the lesser storylines don’t advance as much. Bran, for example, only has 4 chapters because there isn’t much story for him. Arya has 13 chapters because Martin enjoys writing her more, even though many of them could be combined and condensed. Anyway, Arya’s story is still a lesser story in that book, which advances the OVERALL NARRATIVE through many of the major storylines.
      On the contrary, most of the storylines of Feast and Dance are meandering, but there are almost none that advance the narrative effectively.

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    77. Dame of Mercia,

      About Gendry: Who says that he didn’t tell LSH about Arya? Or that he is not about to? We only see Brienne’s POV not Gendry’s POV. We only saw 1 chapter with Gendry in Feast, so how do we know what they have talked about? And especially with Brienne now there (which we cut after what happened between Feast and Jaime I from Dance) there could have been talk about Arya with LSH.
      About Doran: Look at the Dornish Masterplan theory and it comes clear why he never told his daughter the plan, and what Doran’s real plan is (probably?), we are speculating about something that we can’t know until we see where this storyline leads. And why would Doran tell the plan to marry her to Viserys when Viserys died? What would have been the point of that? There’s also that he keeps a lot to himself for a reason, if more people knew about it the more people could get it into the open. Quentyn’s storyline should also show what Doran’s real plan was, it was not an alliance with the Targaryens, it was an alliance with “dragons”. Dany is just a means to an end to get the dragons. And personally I had a feeling that Doran was giving his daughter a lesson in the feast storyline. So maybe him not telling his daughter was a lesson that he learned her (she changed for the better after it). And I also have a feeling that he still doesn’t tell his children the whole truth. The plan he told Arianne seems to be different than the one he told Quentyn. We all have the assumption that he cares for his children but what if he is just using his own children for his plan?

      They saw through him, nobody trusted him, but the thing is they all filled in what they think LF wanted and made their own plans accordingly of it. They gave him lordships etc, the thing is they also needed him. But the real question is, does LF really want the Iron Throne or power? His actions in the books seem to show he wants it but at the same time not. Then we get some information through Sansa’s POV, his connection to Braavos. So what does LF really want? I think even the book readers were played by him. We all think he wants the Iron throne, I say that is not what he wants. It’s either he wants to topple the system and wants a system into place something like capitalism, LF is the richest man in Westeros, but at the same time nobody respects him because he wasn’t born a lord. Look at what he does and it seems that this seem more logical that he wants. Another thing is that he maybe is working for the Iron Bank, his actions made it so that Westeros is in big debt to the Iron Throne, that means they need to repay it, that also means they need to pay interest, in the end this result into the Iron Bank having all of the riches of Westeros. We also know that LF is “stealing” money from the Royal account. Tyrion state there is money missing and that LF did some strange things in his calculations.
      So the thing is that people suspect LF for the wrong reasons, they alter their plan to keep LF in check, but because he wants something else their plan don’t work.

      What LF also did right was that even when people suspected him and know what LF was up too, he offered them something so he could keep them in check. Like he did with Royce in first Sansa chapter of feast, they have more to gain to keep the lie of LF alive.

      At least that is how I look at it. I think many believe what GRRM want us to believe right now, but I think that something else is going on with Doran and LF and their plan is different than what we think now it is.

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    78. oierem,
      – I agree half with what you say, the thing why we got multiple POVs is also why we got multiple POVs of the Starks, to give us different perspectives of what is going on. For instance Arianne sees Tyene as a sweet girl. Areo sees her as one of the most dangerous woman out that that people should be scared about. I also don’t think it was that many chapters. Dorne got 4 in Feast. Iron Island 4 or 5. That’s not much.
      – What I agree with is that I wish Feast only gave us two POV of Dorne (Arys and Arianne) and one of II (Asha), in dreams they could have introduced Victorion and Areo. And Damphair only in winds. But I think all were needed eventually to give us different perspectives about certain events.
      – I don’t think the an existing character should travel there. People forgot that books and shows always need a new main character every season/book. Even if it’s just one. We didn’t complain when we got Davos, Theon, Samwell, Jaime POVs but we did with the new in Feast and Dance. So I don’t see the problem with introducing new POVs especially when we already were introduced to Asha (as a side character). Arys was also already introduced as a side character so made sense that he introduced Dorne.
      – And true too many is not good, I had a hard time getting into Feast and Dance the first time around, now I love those chapters. It was too many at the same time for me. And now winds doesn’t give us a new POV so he could have introduced those new POV more gradually among Feast/Dance and Winds.
      – But Arya in SoS is in fact a slow paced storyline. She does just one thing in a chapter of 10+ pages. Where in Feast she does 2 major things in just one chapter. Her story is much faster paced in those books. But Dany and Jon are slower in Dance compared to SoS. And Bran is much faster paced than many other characters in SoS. He only got 4 chapters as you state but got from Winterfell to meeting almost Jon to getting behind the wall. But the same thing happen in Dance, he only needed 3 chapters. And Arya only needed 4/5 in Feast. Same as Sansa only needed 3.
      – About narrative: Try to make a summery of all the books that explain everything that is important to know for the bigger picture of the story and all the storylines. If you do that you see that Feast and Dance has much more narrative than we initially see. I did it a while back and those 2 books had more lines than the first 2 books, and was only a little shorter than the first 3 books. The second book had the least amount of narrative of all the 5 books. (4 if you count Feast and Dance as one big story).
      – It effects a lot those 2 books even when we don’t really see it. As above try to make a page where all the changes plot and character per book are written, you see that those 2 books have more change than for instance CoK.

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    79. kevin1989,

      I count Feast & Dance together as ~90% of a story. A fair amount of stuff that’s going to be in Winds was meant to be released earlier. So really he hasn’t constructed a start-to-finish full-cast-spanning story since 2000.

      You know something’s gone awry when before he was writing these books (each one representing a complete cast-spanning story on its own) in just two years apiece and suddenly it’s taking him decades to produce just a single set. It’s like his writing has become… constipated. Or he just fell out of love with his established cast & plot and just wants to explore the world he built.

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    80. Farimer123,

      EDIT to my last comment since by attempted edit didn’t go through apparently:

      kevin1989, you’re right that none of us are GRRM (unless one of us secretly is 👀), so none of us know for sure what’s been going on between him and ASOIAF for the last 20 years. But just speaking as an outside observer, I can make my best guesses.

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    81. kevin1989,

      -We got multiple Stark POV characters because the Starks are one of the three main families (the other two are the Lannisters and the Targaryen), and because many of them are the main characters of the whole story (as Martin stated, ASOIAF is the story of Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and (possibly) Sansa). Every other character and family are secondary to the story.

      Now, don’t get me wrong. Even though a narrative will always work best when it’s streamlined and doesn’t have too many irrelevant subplot, I would be perfectly fine with the sprawling narrative of Martin, including all these irrelevant characters and chapters, if Martin would be able to finish the story. However, the fact that it seems literally impossible that he will finish the books is something I can’t ignore, and I can see the main problem very clearly: his sprawling narrative structure and his gardener approach. He has allowed the story to grow too much, and now he can’t tame it (I would be happy to be wrong about this, but I’m afraid I’m not).

      -Each book doesn’t “need” a new POV character. Martin originally wanted to tell the story with just 8 POV characters (the chore six plus Ned and Cat), and in a way, it would’ve been easier if he had just done that. Right now he has more than 15 POV characters alive, and that’s something that is really difficult to handle.

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    82. kevin1989,

      I rely on your explanations about what G has sought to set up in his books. I am at a disadvantage. Except for a few snippets and famous passages, and the “Mercy” sample chapter, I have not read the books yet. I am reluctant to start reading, since I fear I’ll find myself left hanging, along with millions of other disappointed readers who’ve been waiting…and waiting…

      Anyway, regarding your comments:

      ”But I think George has some kind of road map in his head. The same route map he told D&D that they used for the show….”

      ***
      As for the “He lost his way”. The thing is all those that people state he has “lost his way” was already set-up in book 1 and 2…”

      • A “map in his head”?
      I liked your analogy about the books and the show taking different routes and different modes of transportation to reach the same ultimate destination because (I thought) it presupposed that GRRM really didn’t have a detailed road map his head; nor did he share the “route map” with the showrunners. In terms of the road map analogy, I’m sure G probably told them about landmarks to look out for along the way, major tourist attractions to be sure to visit, and the final destination. However, I thought the showrunners were pretty much left to their own devices to navigate their way from where the unfinished source material left off, to the final destination(s).
      Am I wrong?

      From what I can tell, G takes his time (and maybe too much time) to tell his tale with intricate plotting, and through characters whose actions and decisions are understandable, even if mistaken. I thought his favorite “avatars” are cerebral, creative thinkers (like Tyrion, Varys and Sam?) – unconventional heroes who rely on brain power rather than brute strength to survive and succeed. (I’m trying to remember Tyrion’s S1 explanation when Jon asked him why he reads so much. Tyrion said something like the mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone.)

      What I’m getting at is that I seriously doubt GRRM (or his characters, as he portrays them) would devise the wight hunt plan, the mothership device/WW vulnerability, the Bran Bait Plan, LF’s S7 WF scheme and LF stupidly confessing at a trial by ambush, and other narrative expediencies on the show. Also, from what I gather, the showrunners “mixed and matched” some stray book subplots to provide some post-books show material (e.g., borrowing Book! Manderly’s Frey Pies to give post-Braavos show! Arya something to do in S6, and then grafting book! LSH’s House Frey extermination story for show! Arya at the beginning of S7).

      Further, the show completely jettisoned almost all of the books’ mysteries and prophecies, leaving them unresolved. I have to question whether G would carefully construct all of these riddles and cleverly worded prophecies, only to discard them without explanation or resolution. The same could be said about Bran’s warging and green seeing superpowers, and the self-sacrifices of other characters because it was so supposedly crucial that Bran survive. All of that amounted to zippo on the show. Surely such dead ends weren’t part of any GRRM “road map.”

      I admit this is all rank speculation by a non-book reader (me) that these are all indications that George did not have a detailed road map in his head, and (with the exception of a few “tourist attractions” along the way like the Hodor/Hold the Door reveal), did not provide a route map for the showrunners to use. Instead, they had to navigate their way to the destination on their own without a “map” (or a “map shop” where they could buy one. 😎)The major plot points on the show to bridge the gap in G’s incomplete story did not seem to have the author’s “fingerprints” on them.
      Am I mistaken?

      • About the observation by some book readers that G “lost his way,” I’ll have to defer to you – and other book readers.
      As you observed, events in the show’s early seasons based on the first two or three books, set up later developments in both books and show.
      I’m just extrapolating from readers’ comments that after the first three or four books, G introduced so many new characters and new storylines in far-flung locations that he kind of “got lost” and is having difficulty finding his way back.
      Some readers have praised the show for at least streamlining some of the meandering storylines in the books, and getting the main characters in place for the “endgame” by the end of Season 6, i.e., all converging on the same place.

      By contrast, those readers also describe G as getting “lost” after traveling down side roads and taking detours, with his main characters still stuck in different places all over the planet.

      The impression I get is that despite G elegantly setting up future developments in his first few books and foreshadowing potential conclusion(s), he’s since wandered off and gotten “lost” in that he cannot seem to be able to chart a “return trip” that logically contracts all of his disparate storylines and proceeds to the saga’s ultimate resolutions and conclusions.*

      * [Somebody once commented – half-jokingly? – that G should either: (a) Employ the show’s “Dornish Solution” and just pull the plug on some of the side stories and euthanize extraneous characters; or (b) With so many moving parts and separate storylines, instead of trying to figure out how to reposition all of the pieces on the board, go with the Cersei Solution and simply flip the board over, e.g., blow up a bunch of characters all at once. Apologies for the digression. 🤢]

      In any event…

      I have to surmise that G left the showrunners hanging and did not furnish a road map, because he himself doesn’t have one. (If he did, and wanted to save it for himself… that would be f*cked up.)

      Whether the show deserves praise, criticism, or both for its final seasons, at least the showrunners were able to do something that has eluded Big G for so many years: Finish.

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    83. Dame of Mercia,

      Ooh! Lemme briefly weigh in on your off-topic commentary about dinosaurs like the Rolling Stones going on tour…

      • My “newsreel crush” Grace Slick stopped touring with the Jefferson Starship many years ago because she felt it was ridiculous for old geezers to be prancing around on stage. (I’d have to get her exact quote.) Unlike Mick Jagger and his bandmates, she hasn’t dyed her hair and tried to stuff herself into tight leather jeans.

      • My only exceptions for “legacy” acts are:
      – Roger Hodgson, former lead singer of Supertramp. He sounds better than ever. I’ve been wanting to see him for quite a while. He’s been playing sold-out shows throughout Europe for several months.
      – Tommy James (of the Shondells), because my older brother played their records over and over when I was a toddler to the point that their songs were hardwired into my DNA. Besides, Tommy James is really good and everyone has been covering his songs, from Miley Cyrus to Joan Jett.
      – The Turtles, although I think one of the two leads has been ill and they may have recently stopped touring. Same as above re: my older brother and hardwiring.

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    84. Farimer123,

      Agree with that. For me it doesn’t matter that much because I see the whole saga as one big story, not perse per book. But it’s true he made a huge mistake with the split. With the split Feast became a merely 700 page book which he should have made a 1000 page book. Same with Dance. With that he wouldn’t have the problem with winds again where I suspect at the end he suffers the same mistake, where do you end the book? And it will probably result into getting 3 books of 800 page instead of 2 books of 1000 pages.
      The split also made the problem of the newer stories, they became too big in feast I have to say, if he didn’t split the books those stories would have added gradually (and better I must say) in the story.
      I think with Feast he could have ended Dorne with only Arys and Arianne and the introduction of the plan. (In which I think we would remember characters like Darkstar better which took me 2 or 3 reads before I knew who he was), Dance could have been the execution of the plan and the tower of the hand and Quentyn. Areo hotah could have introduced in winds as a POV because Arianne was going away, so I think Areo chapter in dance should have been Arianne’s.
      With II I think Feast should have been only through the eyes of Asha as we saw in Feast and end it with the Kingsmoot. Then Dance could have been what we saw in Dance with Asha and Victorion introduced with the shields and his journey to Dany (the shields could have been a flashback sequence in a chapter). And Damphair could have been introduced in winds where for me he only get’s interesting, I loved that chapter but not so much his feast chapter.
      With YG we could have seen him in Feast through the eyes of Tyrion as we saw in part 1 of Dance. And in dance introducing to the Jon C chapters.

      So I agree that Feast and Dance had an overload of POVs, which I personally love new POV but when it gets too much it could feel too much. And that’s also a shame because I love new POV but now we won’t get a new one in the next two books.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Ten Bears,

      The show omitted a lot of the book’s prophecies and mysteries from the very beginning. It held on to some of the most crucial and juicy ones, like Jon’s parentage, Dany’s (and Bran’s) visions, *PART* of the prophecy that Cersei received from the witch, and a few smaller ones.

      But as GRRM has stated many times: the show is an *adaptation*, and it needed to adapt to its medium, and that meant condensing, cutting, trimming, and simplifying. The writing in this show has always been simplified compared to the books (except for later seasons because it was the show’s writing compared to… nothing on GRRM’s end), but writing is all GRRM has to worry about. As showrunners, D&D have to worry about fifty million other things, and in exchange, we television viewers receive the fruits of their labor along with those of all the cast and crew.

      The first three books all focus on the same six characters (Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion) plus a few more who come and go (Ned, Cat, Davos, Theon, Jaime, Samwell). All of those books are solid, well-defined, self-contained, and well-received. And GRRM hammered them out from 1996-2000.

      Then… it takes GRRM another five years to make Feast, which only has Samwell, Arya, Sansa, and Jaime as recurring POVs. It introduces POV Cersei and Brienne (okay fine), but also introduces not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but SIX new POV characters with whole new plots that threaten to pull the narrative every which way. Then, another six years for Dance, and that book does a somewhat better job by having far more character POVs we’re actually invested in, but it still introduces FOUR more new POVs. And it doesn’t even really have much of a climax, like he wanted to include it but it got pushed to the next book. I think we all know most of these new characters are not going to mean much in the endgame, otherwise they would’ve been introduced or at least hinted at in a substantial manner much sooner. Like, one of them was a Greyjoy who had the hots for Dany, then he just proceeded to get his stupid ass burnt alive by her imprisoned dragons, and that’s the end of him – who the hell cares? As good ol’ Walder would put it: “give me one good reason why I should waste a single thought on any of you.”

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    86. oierem,

      I agree half with that of course, but I think that gardening is not perse adding new storylines, those storylines are introduced no matter what. I think his gardening is only that some stories take a detour before arriving at a certain point. Like for instance with Arya in SoS where we get some amazing chapters before arriving at Beric.
      I also hope he will finish his story of course, but for me what makes this books so great are the side tracks he takes, it always feels fresh for me. Without it I think I wouldn’t have loved the books so much. And I still am of opinion that those side-tracks are important for the bigger picture, depends on why, it could be that they were needed for a certain character development, for some storylines that began in the beginning (Jon’s past, Dany’s past, Targaryen history etc) or that they become main storylines.
      Another show that does this a lot is Vikings, they introduced new characters all the time. Now the main story doesn’t even concern the main character of the first season, and still it’s logical that the story progressed that way. Same with this story. Beginning is Starks vs Lannister, but the story progressed, now Martells, Tyrells, YG etc are important for the main story, while the story from the beginning takes an earlier exit. (like Vikings did with some storylines).

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    87. Ten Bears,

      Well the only reason why I “know” (between “” because I really don’t) about where the books are heading, is not because I only read the books. I put the books next to many theories that are out there, and when rereading them I filter them of which are make sense and which not. Also I try to put the stories that are already in the first 5 books into a more oversight view too look where very storyline is to make sense what could he tell in the next books. Combine that with what the show gave us, combined with Martin’s other books and his theme’s there.

      As for the roadmap: I think he takes detours, (like he docks at France for a while before taking back too his ship to rome). But I think he knows the bigger road map. In the house of the Undying he puts so many things that are going to happen in later books that he knows where his trip will go. He knew he would introduced YG and Jon C, and he also knew how Jon C would end his story. He also know of course the story of Jon’s past which is a recurring theme where he reveals small snippets, same as Dany’s past. And the story of LF and Varys are getting revealed gradually. He knows where he wants to end those stories. We know that 3 books were suppose to be his main story, that was GoT, Dance of Dragon (yes the story of Dance of Dragon is more important for the bigger story than SoS, SoS is the detour it shows already if you look at that Dance has information about Jon and Dany’s past and SoS not so much)
      – About D&D roadmap: The thing is that they even won’t give a straight answer, one moment is we were left hanging, the next it’s, GRRM told us everything. So who knows what they knew and what not. I think personally that Martin knows 90% of what he is going to tell, but those 10% is the bigger problem. And also he envision what he wants to write, but he can’t write it “lividly”. That’s why Fire and blood is easier to write, there the story doesn’t need to be ‘”lividly” it’s written as a historybook.
      – Your right about what he likes to tell about, what kind of characters. I wrote a book about Vampires (too lazy to get into my book shelve), and the main character the hero was the opposite off the general hero. He was pretty fat, far from handsome, and somebody who uses his brain. He likes characters that break the general consensus of what a hero is.

      – the wight hunt plan won’t be in the books, the proof is already in his existing books. In Fire and Blood he explained that Dragons can’t go passed the wall (like the WW can’t passed it from the other site), Dragon’s are stopped there like an invisible wall is before them. There’s also the horn of winter in the books that suppose to take down the wall. This is also proof that even when the bullet points are going to be the same in books and show, the execution will be completely different. “Wall going down”: Bullet point. The way: Undead dragon vs horn of winter. 2 completely different things that cover the same bullet point.
      – Martin already state his WW are more of a race like the Sidhe, so mothership device will not happen. His other books already shines a light on it.
      – I think LF will go down much more different in the books, but I think it’s a given that he will go down. And I think Sansa will have a greater part in it.

      Prophecies: I think the problem lies here more that D&D are more a “per season” kind of guys. They won’t introduce something 3 seasons before to being executed 3 seasons later. With the prophecies that’s exactly what should have happened. To let a prophecy stick, like the books it should have been introduced in the first season (book). Also the prophecies are more fantasy like than D&D wanted, they undid many prophecies in the house of the undying because they don’t like prophecies. It’s too magical for them. (which I think with what they wanted to do make sense: A fantasy show for non-fantasy viewers)
      – I think the problem lies also that I think George’s roadmap doesn’t end with Cersei in the end, if they would have followed that map Cersei wouldn’t have outlive season 7. But for the show I think it makes sense to have Cersei in the endgame. At the same time I think that for the books Dorne, Euron, YG are more integrated in the endgame but they always wanted their story to end with the big 3 houses.

      And your statement about buying a roadmap make me think about many games XD buy a treasure map to find the treasures.

      About lost because of many new characters I think that’s not really getting lost, Vikings another show introduced and change it’s story more than George did with his books in the fourth season (midway of the show when counting episodes). 90% of the storylines and characters from before there stopped in season 4, and new ones arised. Now that show is also in it’s last season (split in 2 parts now part 1) and it does it much better than GoT I have to say. We even god a chosen king in this season, but the execution was done much better and made more sense than with King Bran.

      Well the thing is those side stories are endgame for the books, so he can’t pull the plug on them, else the ending would fall apart. And I think he will go with the second. I think winds will delete many storylines and players from the board or at least set it up that that could happen at the beginning of DoS.

      But about GRRM I think a huge problem lies also with the ones he is working with. How can it that his publisher doesn’t tell George that he should quit his other projects until he finish his books, why do they publish his other books and not say: Well we publish this after winds and Dream. And his editor should also have stated that he should have added his POV more gradually.

      Farimer123,

      I’m still of opinion that George should never have sold the rights before ending his books.

        Quote  Reply

    88. kevin1989,

      Dude… that means we would have never gotten the show. That we would probably NEVER get the show. Optimistically, the chance of that man ever finishing those books is about the same chance of successfully navigating an asteroid field: approximately 3720-to-1.

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    89. Farimer123,

      I was just looking at a chronology of the release dates of the five ASOIAF books and TWOW sample chapters. I had prepared that chronology a few months ago to help me decide whether I should start reading the books. I have held off…

      As you’ve pointed out, the intervals between the books’ publication dates has increased substantially. By my reckoning the intervals between books 1 – 5 has been 2 yrs., 2 mos. > 1 yr., 9 mos. > 5 yrs., 2 mos. > 5 yrs., 9 mos.

      As of today, it’s now been 8 years, 7 months and counting since Book #5 “A Dance with Dragons” was released on July 12, 2011. It’s been roughly 28-29 years since the Big Kahuna began writing “A Game of Thrones” in 1991 when he was 42 or 43 years old.

      I don’t. know. Is there any reason I should be optimistic that “The Winds of Winter” will be released any time soon?

      Even if it is, unless “A Dream of Spring” is written and published to bring ASOIAF to its conclusion, I fear I’ll be in the same boat: investing time reading a book series without an ending.

      Look, I’ve been saying that at this stage in his life Big G should be able to kick back, scarf hot dogs and watch Jets and Giants games – whatever he feels like doing with his time.

      With so many books on my bookshelf I’ve been wanting to read, I’m just wary of devoting my own time to a story without an ending.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Farimer123:
      kevin1989,

      …Optimistically, the chance of that man ever finishing those books is about the same chance of successfully navigating an asteroid field: approximately 3720-to-1.

      Well, I guess you just answered my question from two minutes ago. 🥶

        Quote  Reply

    91. kevin1989,

      ”…And also he envision what he wants to write, but he can’t write it “lividly”. That’s why Fire and blood is easier to write, there the story doesn’t need to be ‘”lividly” it’s written as a historybook.”

      Not sure what you mean by writing “lividly” Does he have to be pissed off or enraged to write ASOIAF?

        Quote  Reply

    92. Farimer123,

      Well I think we would already gotten the books by now. One of the reasons why the books took that long (as he admitted himself) was his contribution to the show, he was more busy with “how his baby looked on screen” and helping etc than writing his books. The show is also one of the reasons why his other projects took off, without the show he wouldn’t have his side projects that took his focus off the books. He also was 13 years younger (they started in 2007 if I remember right) so he could concentrate more on his books.

        Quote  Reply

    93. kevin1989,

      He took eleven years to write Feast & Dance combined, and for 80% of that time, the show didn’t exist, nor was it in any active production whatsoever. AND he was a lot less busy back then, so he had all the time in the world to concentrate on those books, and he STILL took eleven years. He wrote a grand total of four scripts for the show, one per season, spread out over four years. Writing those didn’t take anymore than a few months apiece.

      You would have us give up the entire show’s existence just on the off-chance that GRRM *might* have gotten his act together?

        Quote  Reply

    94. Ten Bears,

      with lividly I mean that you feel you are the character. When reading Arya you feel like Arya, when reading Jon like Jon etc. Also you feel like Westeros is a real place, like it lives you know. So here he needs to really live the story to write it, he needs to feel how Arya feels for instance.

      With fire and blood he doesn’t need to do that. Fire and blood you can see as a History book of Westeros, it’s even stated in the books that this is the book written by one of the Maesters. So like any history book, it only contains “facts”. No feeling etc, just writing things that he needs to get off his chest. It only states events no thoughts.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Farimer123,

      Well that’s not really true, with Feast it took 5 years because of one thing: After writing for 2/3 years he found himself into a corner that the 5 year gab didn’t work. So he rewritten the story. That rewritten from scratch he delivered the book in 2/3 years since he start rewriting Feast. Not 5. Then he was again into writing mode. This was 2005 when Feast was released.

      Now it’s 2005 and he starts again with Dance from scratch. Then 2 years passed and he meets D&D and instead of writing then he was more concerned about the TV show. He took time of writing and helped the show takes off, even if he had a weekend off that is not enough time for a writer to get into that “writing mood”. So writing the rest of the book took more time because he helped the show take off. Then when the show took off he got more famous, he got more interviews, he got more projects (helping other writers of books wildcard saga), he had more influence so he started a charity (Which I think is still awesome). And the more he probably though: The books will be finished, but this charity, projects needs to be done now.
      His priorities changed (which I didn’t like at all).

      Even George rr martin knows that he would have finished the books if he had not concerned himself with those projects, that was clear in his statement where he admitted the projects took him away from the books. So yes I think we can safely assume with the information that is given to us, and especially with GRRM explanation of why the books delayed, that he would have finish the saga (or at least almost finish DoS) by now without his projects that started with the TV show.

        Quote  Reply

    96. kevin1989:
      Ten Bears,

      … with lividly I mean that you feel you are the character. When reading Arya you feel like Arya, when reading Jon like Jon etc. Also you feel like Westeros is a real place, like it lives you know. So here he needs to really live the story to write it, he needs to feel how Arya feels for instance….

      • Ah! Not to channel King Stannis over here…
      Did you perhaps mean “vividly”?

      vividly (adverb): “in a way that produces powerful feelings or strong, clear images in the mind.”

      • Although you have quite a mastery of English, it’s my understanding it’s your second language.
      On a related but more important note, if I recall correctly you once mentioned you’re a countryman of Dutch actress Carice van Houton (Melisandre, faithful though not infallible servant of the Lord of Light.🔥 Sorry Shireen. 😢)

      Do you live in the Netherlands? If so, you may have noticed in my 1:36 pm reply earlier today to Lady of Mercia I wrote that:

      My only exceptions for “legacy” acts are:
      – Roger Hodgson, former lead singer of Supertramp. He sounds better than ever. I’ve been wanting to see him for quite a while….”

      Roger Hodgson is going to be appearing in Amsterdam for three nights in September, 2020:

      Roger Hodgson
      Koninijk Theater – Carre
      Royal Theater Carre
      Amsterdam Netherlands

      Fri. Sept. 4, 2020; and
      Sat. Sept. 5, 2020; and
      Sun. Sept. 6, 2020

      “Roger Hodgson of Supertramp – Royal Theatre Carré Amsterdam”
      [Link isn’t copying]

      You should definitely go!

      (If I’m mistaken about where you live… never mind. 🙄)

        Quote  Reply

    97. Now the main story doesn’t even concern the main character of the first season, and still it’s logical that the story progressed that way. Same with this story. Beginning is Starks vs Lannister, but the story progressed, now Martells, Tyrells, YG etc are important for the main story, while the story from the beginning takes an earlier exit.

      This is where you are, in my opinion, very very wrong. The story is, from beginning to end, a story about the Starks, the Lannisters and the Targaryens. Everyone else is secondary, and have to contribute to the story of the main characters.
      We have very strong evidence to support this (other than narrative logic: in a good narrative the main characters are always introduced at the beginning and are present in the endgame):
      -The show itself: once we got to the endgame, the Tyrells, Greyjoys and everyone else didn’t matter. Most of them were gone, and the endgame was about the main characters introduced in the first season/book (King Bran, Queen Sansa, Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion…).
      -Martin’s plan from 1993. Even though it changed quite a lot (but still, it was written only three years before the book came out!!), he clearly says the story is about Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany and Tyrion.

      The fact that you are now confusing who the main characters are supposed to be is a result of Feast and Dance messing up the narrative so much that Martin “sort of forgot” the main characters altogether. Now he has to tie up the secondary storylines of a bunch of characters who won’t be important in the endgame, and who are in the way of the actual main characters.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Ten Bears,

      Yes vividly, and true I live in the Netherlands 😀

      I think I know one song of supertramps but I don’t know which one. I remember I knew a song of them. But which one I don’t know (one of their most famous I guess). Probably a song used in movies a lot?

        Quote  Reply

    99. kevin1989,

      In retrospect, I wonder if both GRRM and the fans would have been better off had he stayed involved with the show and continued to write scripts. It’s not as if the time he has “saved” by divorcing himself from the show’s production has helped him crank out the books.

      In fact, it’s evident from his blog and journal entries during casting and the Episode Commentaries he narrated during the early seasons of the show, that he was enthusiastic about the show and had his “head” in the ASOIAF world and its characters. As you’ve noted, his own recent excuses/explanations reveal he’s been having difficulty inhabiting his characters. He had no such problems when he was focused on, and exuberant about his story coming to life on the screen.

      Selfishly, I wish he would have stayed on board because I really, really liked the episodes he scripted:

      2011 “The Pointy End”
      2012 “Blackwater”
      2013 “The Bear and the Maiden Fair”
      2014 “The Lion and the Rose”

      One can only imagine how the show would’ve proceeded and concluded if GRRM could have shepherded the story to its destination. We’d now have a bona fide, author-sanctioned ending, and he could ride off into the sunset without worrying (too much) about writing books.

      Oh well. As Bronn would say, “if and may and could” don’t mean very much

        Quote  Reply

    100. kevin1989,

      I’ll copy some links to Roger Hodgson performing live. Off the top of my head, here are some of his Supertramp songs:

      It’s Raining Again
      Even in the Quietest Moments
      Take the Long Way Home
      Give a Little Bit
      Breakfast in America
      The Logical Song
      Dreamer

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    101. Ten Bears,

      That’s just wrong if someone thinks it’s brilliantly done then that’s their opinion. Like my opinion is I think the Bells is the best episode they ever did. Just because you said it can6be possible doesn’t make it a fact.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Fireandblood87,

      Wait, what?
      I’m not sure … are you controverting something I wrote?
      I certainly didn’t intend to pass off my opinion or anyone else’s as “fact,” so if it came off that way I apologize.

      If you meant that praising S8 as “brilliantly done” is “just wrong”… you won’t get any argument from me. I think I tried to state diplomatically, speaking only for myself, that I thought some aspects were great and some were not…
      Maybe I misunderstood you.

        Quote  Reply

    103. kevin1989,

      “Prophecies: I think the problem lies here more that D&D are more a “per season” kind of guys. They won’t introduce something 3 seasons before to being executed 3 seasons later. With the prophecies that’s exactly what should have happened. To let a prophecy stick, like the books it should have been introduced in the first season (book). Also the prophecies are more fantasy like than D&D wanted, they undid many prophecies in the house of the undying because they don’t like prophecies. It’s too magical for them. (which I think with what they wanted to do make sense: A fantasy show for non-fantasy viewers)…”

      • I understand why they wanted to tone down the magical elements.
      – The thing is, while I’m generally familiar with the books’ prophecies, as a show-only fan I relied on the versions of the prophecies that were included and introduced early on.
      – For example, after Melisandre’s recital of the “Warrior of Light” prophecy in S2e1 (the show counterpart to the books’ Azor Ahai prophecy), I was expecting that somehow, someway somebody would fulfill it, metaphorically or figuratively if not literally. Nope. No stars bleeding. No seas freezing as far as I could tell. No flaming sword (except for Beric’s) and no warrior drawing the flaming sword from a fire. (I tried like crazy to shoehorn Sandor into that prophecy. to no avail.) If there was going to be zero payoff, or just throwing it in to function as a Stannis misdirect, they should’ve excised that prophecy entirely.

      – As for the “Prince(ss) that Was Promised,” it seemed that by the time Mel showed up at Dragonstone in S7 it got all muddled and diluted so that non-commital Mel watered it down to Jon and Dany both having “roles to play“ or something like that. That prophecy fizzled out

      Unless, of course…Arya, the Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess, was in fact the prophecied Princess that Was Promised who did indeed bring the dawn. I could be on board with that. 👸🏻
      However, I’m fairly certain there’s no way that’s what Big G had in mind.

      – I know the show excised the “Valanqar” prophecy. Still, do you have any doubt that G will not have Cersei perish by some random brick falling on her head? I believe G framed that peculiarly-worded prophecy as a riddle, to set up a twist upon a twist. Although the Cersei-strangling “little brother” remained a “books-only” thing, I really thought the manner of Cersei’s demise would be a significant endgame event that would be common to the books and the show.

      – Then again, I’m probably frustrated because I had scoured the show’s dialogue and visuals for clues to identify candidates, and formulate and update Vegas-style odds for a tinfoil Valanqar Sweepstakes.
      – Sure, Jamie and Tyrion started out as the heavy 3:1 co-favorites, but going into S8 the Lannister boys dropped to the middle of the field, with Jamie at 5:1 because, inter alia, the one-handed Jamie did not have “hands” (plural) to wrap around Cersei’s throat.
      – I really thought G might pull his clever “twist upon a twist” by having Cersei think it was Tyrion and having reader think it would be Jamie – when a parsing of the wording of the prophecy actually pointed to a third candidate. I had Sandor Clegane in the mix at 4:1.

      – However, a surprise dark horse emerged as the 2:1 favorite: Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryean, the little brother of Rhaegar’s two sons. It all fit. Or so I thought.

      Alas, all of my analysis was for naught. I never considered an inanimate object like a brick or ceiling tile. Nor did I foresee that nobody would wind up choking the life out of Cersei, or trying to kill her in some other way. Sandor, my 4:1 bet, let Cersei skip right past him in S8e5 when he could’ve easily gutted her or broken her neck, fulfilling his protégée’s mission (while snarking something to Cersei like “Arya Stark sends her regards.”)

      All of the “clues” I thought pointed to Jon turned out to be incidental details in throwaway scenes. 🤬

      – From my second-hand knowledge of the books and the devotion of the fandom, it seemed like this prophecy was a BFD (big f*cking deal), with the fandom intensely invested in the fulfillment of the prophecy, all kinds of well-reasoned theories floating around, and expectations that the Valonqar would be revealed by the end of the show. I guess that either George had not figured out the twist yet, or chose not to give it away. Or else maybe the showrunners opted for a sympathetic death for Cersei, rather than murder by asphyxiation at the hands of a “little brother.”

      We’ll probably never know….

        Quote  Reply

    104. Ten Bears,

      -It was a Stannis misdirect, at least in the context of that specific scene. She says that a warrior will pull a burning sword from the fire. Then, Stannis walks over and pulls a burning sword from the fire. *GASP* He must be the Lord’s Chosen! Stannis proceeds to finish the prayer incorrectly, then everyone buggers off except Cressen and Davos, who stay behind to unceremoniously put out the obviously not-magical fire on the obviously not-magical sword. It was to show that these people are religious nut-job cultists who worship fire. What was it someone said in the books about prophecy… something about prophecy “being a treacherous mistress that lures you in and then bites off your cock”? In a story that so often subverts fantasy tropes, including other prophecies, is it so implausible that a solid majority of all these prophecies are kinda horseshit? Or at least, should be taken with a grain of salt?

      And Melisandre said all this, correct? Isn’t she the one who was so adamant that Stannis was TPWWP that she burned a little girl alive to be sure that Stannis would achieve his grand destiny? Who thereafter expressed immense guilt and self-doubt, so that even she later was all like “prophecies are… dangerous things”. The character of Melisandre is far more complicated than just being an announcer-of-prophecies-that-are-totally-meant-to-be-taken-at-precisely-face-value.

      Stars bleeding? Yeah, we saw nothing about that, but what the hell does that even mean anyway? Freeze the seas? That could just be hyperbole for “this winter’s gonna be really fucking cold”, which is was essentially true, even if the seas didn’t actually freeze, so a half-truth for that bit. Dead rise in the North? Prophecy sure hit that on the money. So its record is about 50/50 so far. As for Beric, I still maintain he was easily the literal translation of TPWWP, complete with a whopping six resurrections (versus Jon’s piddling single instance) and a sword he could magically set ablaze at will. And his selfless act of heroism during the Long Night – saving Arya’s life at the cost of his own with Sandor’s help – ensured that the dawn would come via Arya doing what she went on to do later that night. At least thats my interpretation of the situation, and I don’t need any crazy mental gymnastics to make it work.

      Of course, the prophecy itself – TPWWP will bring the dawn – is bothersome. A prince(ss) of what, promised by whom to whom? All we can do is shrug our shoulders. None of the usual fan-favorite candidates for this prophecy were ever princes or princesses that I can recall. And what does it mean, precisely, to “bring the dawn?” Does it mean killing the White Walkers? We don’t know; it’s all so vague and so open to interpretation. Even if GRRM has something slightly different in mind, one cannot be so rigid to think that his way is the *only* way, especially for a television adaptation.

      As for the volanqar prophecy… the show never even mentioned it; what else is there to say? It’s utterly unfair to expect the show to follow a prophecy told by a witch in the woods and have said prophecy completely determine its outcome. Why the hell would Jaime kill the mother of his unborn child – for both of whom he rode all the way North to defend from impending apocalypse by ice, then rode all the way South to defend from an impending apocalypse by fire – in the process abandoning the chance for a happy life with a woman he truly cared for – after hearing that she was probably going to die anyway?! Why?! For some stupid book-only prophecy?! It’s infuriating, like all those people careening over these prophecies have never actually given the show a chance. They’ve only allowed the show to exist within the very narrow confines already set by the books, and for future stuff that hasn’t even been confirmed yet, the show better go how their fanfiction predicted it would, or else grab the torches and pitchforks!

      Anyway, yeah, I’d bet good money that Jaime and Cersei will die in each other’s arms in the books attempting to escape the Red Keep during Dany’s decimation of KL. They came into this world together, they’ll leave it together. The Hound sure-as-fuck wasn’t going to kill her. He just got done telling Arya with absolute certainty that Cersei was a dead woman walking. I’m not even sure the Hound will be alive for Dany’s decimation of KL in the books. Also, if the Hound had taken even a moment to focus on killing Cersei, the Mountain was standing ten feet in front of him up the stairs, and he would have certainly slaughtered the Hound immediately, killing his brother and saving his queen with a single stroke of the sword. No way a pragmatic combatant like the Hound was taking his eyes off his brother for even an instant.

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    105. kevin1989,

      1. I’m not talking about the fans on this site but the fandom as a whole, of which this site represents very little. Fans on Reddit, YouTube, IGN, etc. very much criticized the what and not the how. So, no, most of those who disliked season 8 disliked it because it didn’t end the way they wanted it to. About Danerys, if people weren’t prepared for Dany’s turn despite all the setup, they were never going to be.

      2. “Pacing refers to how quickly or how slowly the action of the story unfolds.”
      https://www.nownovel.com/blog/pacing-in-writing-5-tips/

      Hopefully, this finally puts this debate to rest, unless you want to argue the exact definition. It’s not about scenes, it’s about how fast the narrative progresses. Season 8 was fast paced, not rushed. You can continue to say otherwise, if you want, but the facts are not on your side. Furthermore, you can’t call something both rushed and slow paced. They are complete opposites of one another.

      As for the article you yourself linked, it’s right there:
      “Pacing controls the speed and rhythm at which the story is told.”

      This is what I’ve been saying all along.

      3. Danerys wasn’t aware of how dangerous the scorpions were, so she divebombed straight at them. You see her do this in season 8 Episode 4, but she veers away that time, because she remembers what had happened last time. With dodging the bolts in season 8, she uses speed and attacks at an angle in order to dodge them. Not a plot hole. That’s not to say that there weren’t plot holes in GOT, but there’s not nearly as much as people think, mostly because they don’t know what it is. There are only a handful.

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    106. Farimer123,

      ”What was it someone said in the books about prophecy… something about prophecy “being a treacherous mistress that lures you in and then bites off your cock”? In a story that so often subverts fantasy tropes, including other prophecies, is it so implausible that a solid majority of all these prophecies are kinda horsesh*t? Or at least, should be taken with a grain of salt?“

      Yeah, you’re right.

      It’s just that some “prophecies” often have a kernel of truth to them, even if they’ve been embellished and exaggerated.
      Or, they’re an author’s way to pose riddles to his readers or play tricks on characters, e.g., they’ll misinterpret the prophecy and then get blindsided when it comes true in unexpected ways. The oddly worded valonqar prophecy by Magy the Frog reminded me of the witches’ prophecies in MacBeth. (Macbeth interpreted them to mean he would be invincible. They came true, but in ways that spelled his defeat.)

      • Real world cultures, have lots of “legendary hero” tales and prophecies of saviors, usually with religious overtones. I get it that a world-building fiction writer would create cultures with mythical heroes and messianic figures, e.g., GRRM’s “Azor Ahai” and “the Stallion Who Mounts the World.” Those promised saviors could very well be figments of a “prophet’s“ imagination, and blindly believing in them could come back to bite you in the ass – or elsewhere, like that “treacherous mistress” in the books. So it’s entirely possible GRRM was mocking zealots and the propaganda they use:
      – On the show, at least, we saw High Priestess Kinvara and the Volantis red priestess anoint Daenerys as the Chosen One. Melisandre designated Stannis. Then Jon Snow. Then she waffled and said prophecies are tricky, and both Dany and Jon “have a role to play.” (Then.. I don’t know … did she later realize Arya was really the Chosen One to bring the dawn?)

      Were GRRM and the showrunners trying to convey that anybody can be shoehorned into a savior prophecy, and that most prophecies are “kinda horsesh*t?” That could very well be.

      • Another alternative – that GRRM deliberately injected bogus prophecies into his story as a way to subvert fantasy tropes – would be kind of obnoxious.

      However, it was established
      that Magy the Frog was batting 1.000 in her prophecies. She correctly told young Cersei she’d marry the King. not the Prince. She nailed the exact number of Robert’s kids and Cersei’s kids, and accurately predicted that Cersei’s three kids would all predecease her.
      With that kind of unblemished track record, wouldn’t it be a safe bet that her throat-choking little brother prophecy will also come true?
      If GRRM was intending to subvert the fantasy trope of prophecies, why include a fortune teller with deadly accuracy?

      • Don’t get me wrong. I think it was clever of GRRM to introduce a flawed red witch like Mel who has the power to see visions in the flames but frequently misinterprets them.

      I still don’t know what the Lord of Light really wanted though. Neither did Beric, Jon or anyone else. I suppose the show purposely portrayed the Lord of Light as an inscrutable deity who didn’t really care too much if his transmissions got garbled or misunderstood. As Sandor put it to Beric: ”If he’s so all powerful why doesn’t he just tell you what the f*ck he wants?”

      In any case, I had been looking forward to big reveals unraveling the prophecies. I can’t deny I was disappointed that the show “kind of forgot about them,” and I’m not holding my breath that GRRM will ever get around to resolving them or debunking them.

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    107. Farimer123,

      “… Of course, the prophecy itself – TPWWP will bring the dawn – is bothersome. A prince(ss) of what, promised by whom to whom? All we can do is shrug our shoulders. None of the usual fan-favorite candidates for this prophecy were ever princes or princesses that I can recall.”

      Arya was a Princess. First through King Robb, and then through King Jon.

      I’m not sure how it works when a shortsighted king suddenly decides to abdicate or “bend the knee” to another monarch. Do all members of the whole royal family automatically lose their status and titles?

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    108. Farimer123:
      kevin1989,

      I count Feast & Dance together as ~90% of a story. A fair amount of stuff that’s going to be in Winds was meant to be released earlier….

      I made a chart of the TWOW sample chapters that shows which ones were actually meant to be included in “A Dance with Dragons.” Most of the other sample chapters were written several years ago. Lemme see if I can find it…..

      Here it is:

      “Winds of Winter” Sample Chapters –
      Release Dates
      (Dates when GRRM first posted on his website or blog, read at conventions, or otherwise)
      According to July 11, 2017 Vulture article and other sources

      https://www.vulture.com/2017/07/the-winds-of-winter-asoif-preview-chapters-everything-we-know.html

      (¥ = Holdover material cut from “A Dance with Dragons”*)
      _____________
      ¥ Theon I: Posted Dec. 2011

      Tyrion I: Read at con, 2012

      ¥ Arianne I: Posted 2012

      Victarian I: Read in two parts at two conventions in 2012

      Barristan I: Included as “preview” in ADWD paperback edition in 2012(?)

      Barristan II: Read at convention (along with Barristan I) in 2013

      “Mercy”: Posted March 26, 2014

      Tyrion II: Included in update to World of Ice & Fire app in 2014

      “Alayne”: Posted April 2015

      Aeron: Read at con May 2016

      ¥ Arianne II: Posted May 2016

      ……………
      * Book #5, “A Dance with Dragons” was published on July 12, 2011.

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    109. Ten Bears:

      Another alternative – that GRRM deliberately injected bogus prophecies into his story as a way to subvert fantasy tropes – would be kind of obnoxious.

      Actually, it would be exactly in keeping with everything he’s done so far in the story. From setting up Ned as a false protagonist, to playing the trope of Plucky Girl Heroine Outsmarts The Boys for all it was worth with Dany, only to make her the final villain — it’s been his M.O. all along. (That’s why everyone who hated the ending of the show keeps insisting it’s somehow going to be different in the books — they can’t admit GRRM just played them all along.)

      Furthermore, GRRM uses the device of the unreliable narrator throughout the books. All the readers ever get are various characters’ accounts of what happened — there’s no central “Maester’s Diary” (e.g. Princess Irulan’s quoted writings in Dune) to tie the narrative together with a Trusted Voice. These accounts subtly disagree with each other, leaving it up to the reader to decide what “really” happened. (Did Scarlett O’Hara really have just one child, or three?)

      If we can’t reconcile what two or three still-living characters say about an event they each personally witnessed, then how the heck can we ever discern the “truth” of a prophecy which was supposedly laid down long ago, by persons whose names we do not even know?

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    110. kevin1989,

      “But about GRRM I think a huge problem lies also with the ones he is working with. How can it that his publisher doesn’t tell George that he should quit his other projects until he finish his books, why do they publish his other books and not say: Well we publish this after winds and Dream….”

      George and his publishers should have considered, and maybe ought to still consider, releasing what he’s already written in serialized form.

      It worked for Charles Dickens. “The Pickwick Papers,” written under a pseudonym were published over 19 issues from March 1836 to October 1837. He then published all of his novels, including “Great Expectations,” in serial form first.
      The public eagerly devoured each installment as it was released.

      At this juncture, waiting for George to hand in one of his monster-sized manuscripts makes little sense. It might take discipline to “let go”* of a completed chapter such that he can’t go back and revise it or rewrite it. That might be a blessing in disguise, because I recall reading how he frequently trashes whole sections already written and starts from scratch: another possible reason out of many for the interminable delay approaching nine years.

      I for one really enjoyed reading the “Mercy” chapter on its own when I saw it posted on his blog. If I had already read the first five books I probably wouldn’t hesitate to pay for a subscription to receive periodic installments of The Winds of Winter every week or so.

      It’s possible George himself might find it liberating to release a chapter or two at a time, rather than be overwhelmed by the enormity of completing an entire 1,000 page manuscript.

      Just a thought…

      * Fans could bombard him with Maisie singing “Let it Go” in her Audi Super Bowl commercial if it would inspire him… 👸🏻

        Quote  Reply

    111. Fireandblood87,

      I agree. The Bells is also one of my favorite episodes. Just brilliant from start to finish.

      The funny thing is that people who call something bad can’t even justify it reasonably.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Ten Bears,

      Yeah, I don’t see why we should discount a prophecy that has been accurate, in favour of one line uttered by Cersei. I think there will be a twist, she suspects Tyrion, we suspect Jaime, perhaps she has been right all along. My guess is that Jaime mercy kills her, she’ll be in a real bad way when he sees her.

      The show may have left it out, but it did actually fulfil the prophecy anyway. Whose idea was it to go down the tunnel? Tyron’s. Who took her there? Jaime. Both little brothers. Look at the way Jaime holds her, his hands are around her neck, a bizarre way to hold somebody. She’s crying and she more than likely suffocated to death. Imo, Jaime was the Valonqar metaphorically speaking.

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    113. I really disliked the script and structure of Season 8, but it would never occur to me to make a request to have it redone just because I didn’t like it. I find it something very childish and egotistic to do. And after such act of contempt, how can anyone think that all the people that worked in the production of the season would accept to do it again? It’s disrespectful. It’s just like Nathalie Emmanuel says here: You cannot ask for receipts on art. You can either take it or leave it. You can just leave it without being an asshole about it, like I did.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard: Well, seeing as there was no National Board of Inquiry into the matter, who exactly determined that Cersei was responsible? She lost her uncle when the Sept fell, after all. Her last child also died that day, so if she was responsible, the Seven surely punished her. There can be as many opinions about this as there are drunken tavern-dwellers.

      Hot Pie to Arya in season 7, episode 2: “Heard she blew up the Great Sept.”

      Hot Pie knew it was Cersei. Therefore, everyone knew it was Cersei. Come on, dude.

      Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard: The people whom the High Sparrow championed were drifters and other hopeless charity cases, not the hard-working masses or guildsmen or other solid citizens of King’s Landing. (He actually seemed to despise craftsmen, even — or perhaps because — he had once been a successful one.

      Where are you getting this from? I don’t recall any of this mentioned on the show. The HS gained complete control of KL in all but name during season 6.

      Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard: Furthermore, the Sparrows were dim and arrogant fanatics, who actually made life worse for many persons in the city. There’s no evidence shown on-screen that any working people liked having the Sparrows around, or missed the Sparrows after their own gods failed to protect them. (Note how Baelish’s taunting, insulting condemnation of the Sparrows sailed right over Brother Lancel’s thick muscle-head.)

      Well, it’s hard to know if anyone missed the sparrows when the show didn’t devote any time to it’s aftermath. That was actually part of my original criticism.

      You say there’s no evidence that “working people” liked having the sparrows around, yet there’s also no evidence that they didn’t like having them around either. The only people who obviously didn’t like them were brothel owners. I thought that the show made it clear as day that the HS had the approval of the common people. Again, the HS gained complete control of KL in all but name during season 6.

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    115. Mr Derp,

      The official story of the Sept explosion was that it was an accident. The Mad King had left caches of wildfire all over the city.

      So apparently Hot Pie “knew” it was Cersei, as did everyone? How? Did Hot Pie somehow acquire a copy of GoT S6 on DVD and watch E10? Hmm? It’s literally just a rumour. The common folk undoubtedly have their suspicions contrary to the official story, but that’s all they are: suspicions. “Do you have proof, or do you want to trade gossip like a couple of fish-wives?”

      And what? You thought after severely disrupting trade, essentially outlawing brothels and even alcohol (“flooded the gutters with wine”), and persecuting anyone doing anything against their religion, that the High Sparrow and his cronies were loved by *everyone* in KL? There were a million people in that city, and aside from a vocal minority who adored the Faith Militant, most of them are probably just apathetic bystanders who were more than happy to keep their heads down and wait for it all to blow over, like how it usually is in real life whenever fanatics come to power.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Farimer123: The official story of the Sept explosion was that it was an accident.

      Where/when was this mentioned on the show?

      Farimer123: So apparently Hot Pie “knew” it was Cersei, as did everyone? How? Did Hot Pie somehow acquire a copy of GoT S6 on DVD and watch E10? Hmm? It’s literally just a rumour.

      You’d have to ask Hot Pie how he knew considering the show didn’t make it clear how he knew. The only thing that was made clear was that Hot Pie heard it was Cersei. Olenna seemed to know as well.

      There is also no proof that Jaime was the father of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella, yet it was common knowledge in all of Westeros. I guess since there’s no proof it must not be true though, right?

      It would be painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain that Cersei did it. The explosion happened during her trial. You know, the trial she failed to show up for.

      All of her enemies were killed in the blast.

      She wasted no time in immediately taking over KL after her son’s death.

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    117. Farimer123,

      I would also add that any of the common folk thinking of rising up would think twice. They just saw a armed group attempt to rise up against Cersei and they were destroyed. Similar to real life we wonder is some countries why the people don’t rise up. The don’t because the ones who tried before were killed.

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    118. Ten Bears,

      No problem I might have misunderstood. I have just been told by people in the past that if you think the final season is great that’s wrong. Which is impossible since it’s art and if someone loves it their not wrong it’s just their opinion.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Farimer123,

      Agree about the prophecy, the show did not include the volanqar prophecy so they could deliberately change that ending. Here Jaime and Cersei could die in each others hands by excluding that prophecy. If they had included the Volanqar prophecy, they couldn’t end Jaime and Cersei they way they did.

      So I would take the money of Jaime and Cersei, the thing is that the books already spoiled things that speak against the ending of them in the show:
      1. The Volanqar prophecy: The Volanqar will strangle Cersei to death. I still believe this could be Jaime, but that also mean it won’t be a lovely ending like it was in the show.
      2. Jaime’s visions tells us Jaime’s ending is up north. In his vision his lights gets out in the north. That could mean that he will live out in the north (the wall?) or die against the WW.
      3. Don’t forget that GRRM state that the main characters ending are the same, not perse the secondary and Tertiary, he talks this about the books not the show. In the books Jaime and Cersei are secondary characters not main.

      About Dany, Dany will not meet with Cersei. The books already spoiled that. She is warned and had visions about: Quentyn, Tyrion, Euron, Victorion, Jon Connington, Young Griff, Jon and Stannis. But not about Cersei. GRRM tells who Dany will meet in the future and Cersei isn’t one of them. There is a reason why D&D delayed Cersei and Jaime’s storyline for 2 seasons. Because they needed them until the end of the show while in the books their storyline won’t make it till the endgame.
      The show will something that Vikings also did. The story evolved, the begin characters are making place for newer ones that arrive halway into the show, and those new ones are the endgame of the series.

      About Sandor: I say Clegane bowl will still happen in the show. But probably because of the trial by combat that is being prepared between Gregor and the chosen champion of the seven, which I suspect will be Sandor.

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    120. Young Dragon,

      1. Personally for me, a fan reacts on a site like Watchersonthewall or other GoT/asoiaf sites, not reddit or other sites that are mostly use for people who vent about everything. Because those loud fans of YT and Reddit etc are complaining about everything there, that’s not being a critical fan that’s being a loud-mouth about everything.
      And why should you care about what they say? I mean I don’t agree with many things with my close friends about more important stuff like politics and still I’m friends why? Because people tend to think different. (Not that I would be friends with the way some reddit/yt people react but that’s not the opinion but the way they speak).

      2. Did you even read the rest of the points? fast past are shows like Supernatural, Gotham, X-files, CSI etc. And even the point you give state season 8 was slow paced, I think you interpreted that sentence not as it is intended.
      “Pacing refers to how quickly or how slowly the action of the story unfolds.”
      Season 8 does not unfold the action of the story fast, in fact it unfolds it slowly. Episode 3 is prove of that. It unfolds the action in 80 minutes, that’s the opposite of fast paced.

      So hopefully, this finally puts this debate to rest as you state and you take the statements as it is stated and not how you want it to be interpreted. Fast paced is always about how fast scenes are, ask anyone who works in Television or who writes books themselves, they would say that that’s exactly what fast paces is. Supernatural has a fast-paced storytelling but the narrative is pretty slow. Same with Gotham or CSI or other fast-paced shows. Peaky blinders (even stated by the writer) is a slow paced show, even when the narrative of that show progressed fast.

      So please stop twisting words that are written to convince yourself that season 8 was fast paced and not rushed, it was slow paced and very rushed. As stated above, fast paced is many short scenes that progress the story very fast (like every comedy show is fast paced), it jumps into one scene to another, and action to the next into a very short amount of time. A great example of fast paced storytelling is Dark knight or Prison Break.

      So as it seems the facts are on my side.

      Rushed had nothing to do with the pacing. Rushed means that the story rushed over important things and just skip them or give them a short amount of screentime and just to be over with it. Dark knight is an example of it, it’s a very fast paced movie but it’s not rushed, every thing that needed to be shown was shown. It’s sequel is slow paced, and not rushed, it shows what was needed and the pacing was slow.

      “Pacing controls the speed and rhythm at which the story is told.”

      Yes the speed and the rhythm in which the story is told. Do you know what rhythm is? that has nothing to do with narrative, but in fact how the speed and rhythm of a part of a story is. So how fast was the part of introducing everyone in winterfell? Was that a whole episode or merely 10 minutes. If it’s the last your right season 8 was fast paced. How long was the saying goodby of characters before the big battle? How long was the battle with the WW itself? How was the speed of the after party of the battle? How long was the massacre of Kings Landing? All these questions could be answer with: Very slow speed, it took a very long time for that part to being told. Every part took around 30/80 minutes. Compare that too season 2 where every part of the story is a merely 5 a 10 minutes of screentime.

      This could also be transferred to music. Fast paced songs are songs that have a lot of beat (dance, rap for instance) slow paced music have a slow beat a rhythm (like a ballad). A fast paced song could take more than 10 minutes with some songs (the narrative of the songs takes it time still the song is fast paced, some rap and dance songs have this), and some slow paced songs have a short narrative (some ballads take merely 2 minutes but the pace of the song is still very slow).

      But I think this debate is just an endless loop where you keep on debating this even when people state facts. So I don’t really see the point anymore debating this.

      3.
      True agree there were only a handful, but still most of them were in season 7 and 8. That should say something.

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    121. Mr Derp,

      Hot Pie to Arya in season 7, episode 2: “Heard she blew up the Great Sept.”

      Hot Pie knew it was Cersei. Therefore, everyone knew it was Cersei.
      _________

      “HPNN: The Most Trusted Name in News”

      ©️2019 Hot Pie News Network

        Quote  Reply

    122. kevin1989,

      ”Rushed had nothing to do with the pacing. Rushed means that the story rushed over important things and just skip them or give them a short amount of screentime and just to be over with it…”

      I am NOT jumping into the “fast-paced” vs. “too-rushed“ debate. However, I think your definition of “rushed” is correct.

      I have not watched shows you cited as examples of “fast-paced” storytelling like “The Dark Knight,” Prison Break,” “Supernatural,” or “Gotham,” and it’s been so long since I saw a Batman movie I can’t remember if the pacing of “The Dark Knight” was fast or slow.

      I will say in general that I’ve seen movies and TV shows with rapid fire, edge-of-your-seat action that could be described as “fast-paced,” without feeling “rushed,” because plot points aren’t glossed over and set-up scenes haven’t been omitted, and most important, scenes don’t end abruptly without a pay-off.

      One example that comes to mind is “Mad Max: Fury Road.” That was a high-octane, high voltage movie, with a wild, extended chase scene as its centerpiece. Yet, it never felt rushed because I never sensed anything was being skipped over or left unexplained.

      As it relates to Game of Thrones, let me throw out two examples for comparison…

      —- 5:37 pm. Gotta run out. To be continued —

        Quote  Reply

    123. Ten Bears,

      Not only that, but Hot Pie knew Arya, liked Arya, and knew Arya hated Cersei. So Hot Pie repeated to Arya an unflattering rumor about Cersei, a rumor he knew would agree with Arya’s opinion of Cersei. Humans curry favor like this all of the time in the real world. Hot Pie’s decision to repeat that particular rumor to this particular person does not in any way imply he even cared about the Sept, let alone knew who might have been responsible. He works in a tavern, and there are as many rumors mongered in such a place as there are drink-loosened tongues to monger them.

        Quote  Reply

    124. kevin1989,
      Ten Bears,

      I concur on the fast paced vs rushed. It’s incredibly frustrating to see that after all the TV shows we’re watching in this day and age and dissecting every little thing on the internet, the difference between these two still escapes us.

      To be honest it’s a thing in real life too. It’s one thing to work in a fast paced environment because that’s the nature of the job, and a different story to just do a rushed job because you just wanna get off work earlier and on a relatively relaxed office environment too…

        Quote  Reply

    125. kevin1989,

      I also take the comments here much more seriously, but we’re talking about the fan backlash to season 8, of which those sites played a very big part. It’s not that I care what they say, it’s that what they say is relevant to the discussion we’re having. Those sites prove that the majority of the backlash was due to what happened in season 8, rather than how.

      2. The debate should have been put to rest, but you apparently can’t admit when you’re wrong. I dismissed some of the things you said because I wanted to give you the chance to save face, but instead you dug in your heels. Scenes have nothing to do with the literary definition of pacing, as you very well know. The article you linked literally says “here are some tools to hasten your story.” Using scenes is simply one tool you can use to help pace your story, one of several. The other tools directly pertain to season 8, such as action, cliffhangers, and scene jumps. 803 was an example of fast paced because it moved the story very quickly in a single episode. You are deliberately manipulating the facts in order to help your argument, which is highly disingenuous. I thought you were better than that.

      “Pacing controls the speed and rhythm the story is told” is them saying it determines how quickly the story progresses, something I’ve been saying all along. You are actually debating the definition of a word, and that’s why you lost.

      There was nothing missing in season 8, or brushed over, so it was not rushed. You simply wished season 8 had more scenes, even though they weren’t needed, but that’s not the same thing. You have it backwards. The facts simply are not on your side, no matter how much you wish the opposite.

      3. I only know of two plot holes, both from season 7. But it doesn’t really tell me anything. The other seasons have other flaws, as do every other television show.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Mr Derp: Where/when was this mentioned on the show?

      When Cersei was hosting the Iron Bank representative, he brought up the explosion, and she said it was a tragic accident.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Ten Bears,

      Everything that occurred in season 8 was set up by events that took place in season 8 or the previous seasons. There were no missing scenes, therefore, it was not rushed.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Young Dragon: When Cersei was hosting the Iron Bank representative, he brought up the explosion, and she said it was a tragic accident.

      So the perpetrator telling someone a lie is somehow the “official story”? Handy!

        Quote  Reply

    129. Young Dragon:
      Pigeon,

      Yes, the official story is what the government supplies to the citizens. It’s not necessarily the truth.
      Pigeon,

      Yes, that’s correct.

      It was a story supplied by an official, but that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the official story. It makes it the “official” story. I believe even in Westeros they used air quotes.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Mr Derp,

      Hot Pie knew it was Cersei. Therefore, everyone knew it was Cersei. Come on, dude.

      Hot Pie heard that rumor in the tavern where he works. Therefore, everyone heard that rumor in the tavern where he works. Which proves absolutely nothing about what actually happened.

      Come on, dude.

      Where are you getting this from? I don’t recall any of this mentioned on the show.

      Ditto your belief about the common people of King’s Landing loving the High Sparrow. (Although you have stated this belief multiple times, you have yet to support it with even a single quote or image from the show.) As noted elsewhere, his roving goon squads had violently deprived them of drinks and pleasure-women. Why should they love him?

      The HS gained complete control of KL in all but name during season 6.

      She wasted no time in immediately taking over KL after her son’s death.

      So, the High Sparrow and Cersei were both wildly popular with the masses?

      Or each had a loyal base of armed supporters (Sparrows, Gold Cloaks) who enforced their authority over those masses?

      The Sept of Baelor was also considered a sacred place. It was strange that there was little to no reaction to his death from the common people.

      Um, that’s further evidence that no one cared about the deaths of “…The High Sparrow, and all of his little Sparrows,” as Cersei taunted Septa Unella — whilst wine-boarding her! (And The High Sparrow himself had described the Sept of Baelor as a “gilded monstrosity,” or some such, so it appears even he didn’t have much of a liking for it. He preferred to pray in an older, smaller, simpler chapel beneath it.)

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    131. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      Everything that occurred in season 8 was set up by events that took place in season 8 or the previous seasons. There were no missing scenes, therefore, it was not rushed.

      Huh? Did I say it was?

      I wrote: “I am NOT jumping into the “fast-paced” vs. “too-rushed“ debate.”

        Quote  Reply

    132. Pigeon: It was a story supplied by an official, but that doesn’t automatically mean it’s the official story. It makes it the “official” story. I believe even in Westeros they used air quotes.

      Same as “poisoned by our enemies.”

        Quote  Reply

    133. The most powerful man in the world at the time, President John F. Kennedy, was fatally shot in broad daylight, while surrounded by police and security men, in the middle of a major American city, with hundreds or even thousands of potential witnesses present, and a movie camera recording the event. This was all followed by an official government inquiry, led by a respected jurist, with subpoena power. And to this day, decades later, there is still no popular consensus on who killed JFK or why.

      Assuming that everyone in King’s Landing came to agreement on how the Sept went boom assumes a lot of things about illiterate masses in a Dark Age setting — things which are not true even of educated persons in our modern world.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard:
      The most powerful man in the world at the time, President John F. Kennedy, was fatally shot in broad daylight, while surrounded by police and security men, in the middle of a major American city, with hundreds or even thousands of potential witnesses present, and a movie camera recording the event. This was all followed by an official government inquiry, led by a respected jurist, with subpoena power. And to this day, decades later, there is still no popular consensus on who killed JFK or why.

      Assuming that everyone in King’s Landing came to agreement on how the Sept went boom assumes a lot of things about illiterate masses in a Dark Age setting — things which are not true even of educated persons in our modern world.

      Except the evidence shows that Lee Harvey Oswald did it, by himself. If you actually look at the evidence, ballistics, etc…it’s clear as day that Lee Harvey Oswald did it.

      It’s just not a sexy enough conclusion for most people to accept. It’s always gotta be a grand conspiracy theory instead of just letting the evidence speak for itself.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard: Um, that’s further evidence that no one cared about the deaths of “…The High Sparrow, and all of his little Sparrows,”

      No, considering we never got to see any reaction or fallout from the Sept explosion, that’s further evidence of a dropped plot point, not that nobody cared. All that does is articulate that Cersei didn’t like them.

      And sure, the HS didn’t like the Sept, but I didn’t say the HS liked it. I said it was considered a sacred place in Westeros, not to the HS. For example, that Lannister soldier in season 7 was looking forward to seeing it, but he wasn’t allowed to.

      Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard: Hot Pie heard that rumor in the tavern where he works. Therefore, everyone heard that rumor in the tavern where he works. Which proves absolutely nothing about what actually happened.

      You asked me who determined Cersei was responsible and I replied by stating it’s common knowledge in Westeros that Cersei did it. The fact that Hot Pie heard it was Cersei articulates this. Olenna knew it as well.

      Yet now you’re saying there’s no proof, so you can’t accept it. Well, again, there’s no proof that Jaime is the father of Joffrey, Tommen, or Myrcella, but all of Westeros believed that to be a fact, yes?. Being convicted in the court of public opinion can stick with you just as much as any “official” verdict.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Mr. Derp:

      Please provide quotes and/or images from the show to support your claims about the common people of King’s Landing having loved The High Sparrow. That is your claim, one which you have repeatedly failed to support with anything other than your own tedious assertions that it is true. Your carefully missing the points others here make does not do anything to support your claims, and the show’s failure to provide evidence for your claims is not the fault of, or a problem with, the show.

        Quote  Reply

    137. I have no problem at all with the ending. Just the silly path that was taken to arrive there. Everyone was firing on all cylinders for every aspect of the production except that scripts were, with the exception of Bryan Cogman’s, some of the weakest of the entire series.

      Smart people taking turns being stupid to advance the plot along a pre-determined outline to unearned dramatic endings. This impacted primarily the dialogue and the logical structure of the action (which was very well filmed if a bit dark in one episode).

      There were some excellent scenes though that were some of the very best in the series. Most of them had Drogon in them for some reason.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Mr Derp,

      “Dropped plot point”? Were there any important characters left alive who loved the High Sparrow so much that they would undoubtedly swear to avenge his death, and the plot kinda forgot about them because obviously it was written by a couple of dumb-dumbs? The answer is “no.” There *was* a fairly important character named Olenna who lost her entire family in the explosion, and she swore to take revenge on Cersei by siding with Dany, just as would be logical.

      Besides her, who? A bunch of nameless, unarmed peasants who’ll get themselves and their families butchered if they dare publicly utter a word against Cersei? Quite a few of those peasants, though far from all, will undoubtedly be upset at the High Sparrow’s demise, and many of them may not believe the official story that the explosion was an accident (not that anyone has a shred of evidence to the contrary). But even if they were, it’s not like they were starving and had to revolt and fight for their lives or die, like what almost happened during Joffrey’s reign.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Young Dragon,

      Yeah? No. There are some flaws in your logic here. Even if your first two assertions were true (and they seem entirely reasonable) it doesn’t necessarily follow that no scenes were missing. And, come to that, even if the “missing” scenes were added, the production might still feel rushed even allowing for the inevitable acceleration to any conclusion.

      I don’t feel the season

        Quote  Reply

    140. HablaCarnage:
      …Everyone was firing on all cylinders for every aspect of the production except that scripts were, with the exception of Bryan Cogman’s, some of the weakest of the entire series.

      Smart people taking turns being stupid to advance the plot along a pre-determined outline to unearned dramatic endings. This impacted primarily the dialogue and the logical structure of the action…

      There were some excellent scenes though that were some of the very best in the series…

      There it is, in a nutshell🤓!

      Especially compared to their wit and eloquence in earlier seasons, it’s hard to dispute that Tyrion and Varys “took turns being stupid” in S8.

      Jon “Muh Kween” Snow, Sansa “I hate your gf” Stark, Birdbrain Bran, and even my beloved Arya, were not immune from S.I.D.D. (Sudden Intelligence Deficit Disorder).

      I’m not sure though how much of the dumbing down of the dialogue was attributable to “advancing the plot along a pre-determined outline,” as opposed to other factors such as absence of source material, creative exhaustion, etc. Whatever the reason(s), the differences were striking.

      For example (and I recognize others may disagree), the wight hunt plan-devising, Cersei-appeasing, easily-deluded, unfunny c*ck-joke -spewing Tyrion who delivered the absurd “Bran the Broken/Best Story” speech hardly resembled the witty, whip-smart, Joffrey-bitch-slapping Tyrion who outed Pycelle as Cersei’s spy; transformed pompous Lancel into his own double agent; and turned his “confession” at the Vale into an audience-pleasing stand-up routine.

      That’s just my opinion, based on my own perceptions. I’m not criticizing anyone who thought that Tyrion’s S8 “Your baby, your baby” entreaties to Cersei or his “Bran the Broken” speech were br****ant.

        Quote  Reply

    141. I just wanna thank the people who talked about Succession here in this site and piqued my curiosity. Just finished Season 1 and I enjoyed it soooo much… Brilliant series! 😁 HBO never lets you down. 👍

        Quote  Reply

    142. Farimer123: “Dropped plot point”? Were there any important characters left alive who loved the High Sparrow so much that they would undoubtedly swear to avenge his death, and the plot kinda forgot about them because obviously it was written by a couple of dumb-dumbs? The answer is “no.”

      Actually, seeing as though the common people never really had a voice in the show or an important character represent them, we don’t really know what they thought. All we have to go on is what we saw play out during the High Sparrows’s reign of terror on the nobles. I admit that the HS’s rise to power had more to do with his influence over Tommen and Cersei than the common people, but it was apparent during seasons 5 and 6 that the common people backed him. The HS never would’ve become the High Sparrow to begin with unless he had a following.

      Yes, the HS was a misogynist, homophobe, and hypocrite, so he sucked too. I wouldn’t want him in charge anymore than Cersei. However, he’s the only person on the show with power who used it to fight for the downtrodden and disenfranchised. We’ve seen multiple scenes throughout the show that articulate how unhappy the common people were with the status quo. You really think they wouldn’t back the one man that came to Westeros to try to even the odds in their favor? If you want to go with that then that’s fine, but it goes against what we saw play out on screen. The common people seemed pretty enthusiastic about Cersei’s walk of shame, no? They cheered enthusiastically when Tommen declared that the crown and the faith would join together as one, no?. Wouldn’t these be considered signs of endorsement that they approve of the HS?

      This actually taps into a minor issue I had with the show throughout. The common man never really had a voice in the show. They were really used as props more than anything. If they had more of a voice then it would be easier to know exactly how they felt.

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    143. Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard:
      Mr. Derp:

      Please provide quotes and/or images from the show to support your claims about the common people of King’s Landing having loved The High Sparrow. That is your claim, one which you have repeatedly failed to support with anything other than your own tedious assertions that it is true. Your carefully missing the points others here make does not do anything to support your claims, and the show’s failure to provide evidence for your claims is not the fault of, or a problem with, the show.

      You’re making this personal. Drop the attitude and I’d be happy to continue the conversation.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Mr Derp,

      …it’s common knowledge in Westeros that Cersei did it. The fact that Hot Pie heard it was Cersei articulates this. Olenna knew it as well.”

      In addition to the established trustworthiness of reporting by the HPNN, and the in-universe examples you cited that it was common knowledge that Cersei blew up the Sept (and not some unfortunate “accident”), there’s what I’d call “the Margaery* Deduction”:

      • As King Tommen the Spineless had publicly announced the date of Cersei’s (rigged) trial-by-Septon, and the galleries were packed with spectators, everybody knew Cersei was supposed to be in the Sept that day.
      • That Cersei didn’t bother attending meant she didn’t give a sh*t about the consequences (e.g., being forcibly brought to the Sept or being tried in absentia), because she was going to preempt those consequences.
      • In any event, that Cersei survived the explosion by staying far away from the scene, hunkered down in the Red Keep quaffing wine, was a pretty good indication to anyone with half a brain that Cersei knew in advance that a wildfire explosion would incinerate her prosecutor, his forehead-carving deputies, the witnesses against her, her assembled enemies, any bystanders in the immediate vicinity, and the “courthouse” itself.
      🧪🦠💥🔥🕍
      • That Cersei, alive and well (and unbowed, unbroken, and unburnt), promptly appeared in public and seized the throne for herself while the ruins were still smoking, indicated she had foreknowledge of the explosion, and had planned for it in advance.
      • All of these circumstances couldn’t be dismissed as mere coincidence. They were indicia of premeditation and guilty knowledge.
      • Floating an “official story“ that the explosion was a terrible accident would be expected. It’s not as if Cersei and Qyburn would hold a press conference and announce: “Yeah, we did it. Deal with it..”
      • The “commonfolk” would surely realize that anyone foolish enough to stick his neck out to demand an investigation, publicly accuse the queen of murder, or in any way challenge the “official story,” would soon have his head on a pike. (Oh wait… Maybe I’m confusing that with the real world

      threats of King Donald the Malevolent.

      )
      • I’m not sure if the public at large knew that Tommen had been kept away from the scene of the (impending) crime, and only after seeing that his mom had vaporized his honeypie, did he decide to commit suicide-by-defenestration, splattering his body on the streets below the Red Keep. (As far as I understand, in the fictional world of ASOIAF/Game of Thrones, government officials didn’t feel honor-bound to take responsibility for accidents occurring on their watch by committing seppuku.)
      • As opposed to, say, a fire caused by a gas leak or even an in-universe spontaneous eruption courtesy of divine intervention by that practical joker the Lord of Light, the telltale green flames of ignited wildfire strongly suggested that the explosion was caused by a man-made substance.
      • It’d be a stretch for anyone to believe that one of the Mad King’s decades-old secret stashes of wildfire just happened to ignite under the Sept at the precise date and time of the regicide trial. In fact, I thought that the existence of those caches was a little-known secret among Jaime and maybe a handful of other people. Qyburn had initially referred to the existence of the caches as a rumor that he later investigated and confirmed. (Even if members of the public were aware of the other possible source of wildfire, the stores manufactured by the pyromancers of the Alchemists’ Guild at Cersei’s direction [see S2], those could be traceable to Cersei.)
      • So, even in the absence of direct, first-hand evidence to support HPNN’s reporting that “Cersei blew up the Great Sept (Boom!🔥)
      , and even discounting Olenna’s certainty that Cersei did it [S6e10] – which Jaime didn’t dispute when Olenna confronted him in her farewell scene [S7e5?], I would think there was enough publicly-known evidence for anyone to conclude that Cersei was culpable.

      * (Shameless Segue):
      Happy 38th Birthday to Natalie Dormer!
      🎉🌺🦜🌈🎂

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    145. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two:
      Ten Bears,

      Not only that, but Hot Pie knew Arya, liked Arya, and knew Arya hated Cersei. So Hot Pie repeated to Arya an unflattering rumor about Cersei, a rumor he knew would agree with Arya’s opinion of Cersei….

      Did Hot Pie know that Arya hated Cersei? I’m not disputing what you wrote. I just don’t recall that Hot Pie was aware of Arya’s particular dislike of Cersei before he mentioned to Arya [in S7e2] that Cersei had blown up the Great Sept.

      Here’s an excerpt of the dialogue from that Hot Pie-Arya scene in S7e2. Apologies for any inaccuracies in my transcription:

      ***
      HP: “Where are you heading?”

      Arya: “King’s Landing.”

      HP: “Why?”

      Arya: “I heard Cersei’s queen now.”

      HP: “I heard she blew up the Great Sept. That must have been something to see. Boom!
      … I can’t believe someone would do that.”

      Arya: “Cersei would do that.”

      HP: “I thought you’d be heading for Winterfell.”

      Arya: “Why would I go there? The Boltons have it.”

      HP: “No. The Boltons are dead.”

      Arya: “What?”

      HP: “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”
      ———

      Were there any earlier scenes between Arya and Hot Pie during their time together from S1e10 through their parting in mid-S3, in which she conveyed her enmity for Cersei? I don’t remember any off the top of my head. I may have forgotten.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two:
      Ten Bears,

      Not only that, but Hot Pie knew Arya, liked Arya, and knew Arya hated Cersei. So Hot Pie repeated to Arya an unflattering rumor about Cersei, a rumor he knew would agree with Arya’s opinion of Cersei. Humans curry favor like this all of the time in the real world. Hot Pie’s decision to repeat that particular rumor to this particular person does not in any way imply he even cared about the Sept, let alone knew who might have been responsible. He works in a tavern, and there are as many rumors mongered in such a place as there are drink-loosened tongues to monger them.

      Ten Bears,

      Thanks TB for injecting some common sense into this debate.

      I actually missed that comment from Tenor to you initially.

      It’s interesting. When I don’t prove my assertions that means to certain people that I’m tedious and my arguments are wrong, yet when others make assertions without proof it’s somehow supposed to be taken as fact.

      I was initially told that no one knew who blew up the Sept. I countered that with in-show proof that everyone unofficially knew Cersei did it. However, that was countered with me being told that Hot Pie said what he said about Cersei just because he was trying to curry favor with Arya. Where is the proof for that?

        Quote  Reply

    147. Mr Derp,

      You’re making this personal. Drop the attitude and I’d be happy to continue the conversation.

      Nice dodge. Unless you provide some evidence to show the common people loved The High Sparrow, then there is no “conversation” to “continue;” there’s just you, emptily stating your same groundless belief, over and over.

      Go to the montage of the Sparrows raging through King’s Landing, smashing barrels of wine, attacking members of other religions, and gleefully assaulting nakedly helpless persons in a brothel. Now, please show us some evidence the people of King’s Landing loved the leader who ordered such crimes against them.

      Furthermore, even if everyone did believe Cersei ordered the destruction of the Sept, it is perfectly possible both to *not* love The High Sparrow, and to believe in Cersei’s guilt. Oleanna Tyrell did both quite easily.

      As the Sparrows made life miserable — and quite possibly much shorter! — for many inhabitants of King’s Landing, a widespread belief that Cersei had rid the city of such violent, abusive fanatics could actually have been a point in her favor with the masses.

      Again, please show your work, or no credit.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,

      ”As the Sparrows made life miserable — and quite possibly much shorter! — for many inhabitants of King’s Landing, a widespread belief that Cersei had rid the city of such violent, abusive fanatics could actually have been a point in her favor with the masses.”

      While I cannot speak for the masses, Cersei/Lena Headey scored major points in my book for her wineboarding of Septa Unella. I loved her in that scene. (🔔🔔🔔 indeed.)
      Plus, I disliked everything about the High Sparrow & Faith Militant storyline so much that I thoroughly enjoyed watching him disintegrate, after that smug look disappeared from his face. I did not like the (show-only?) gaybashing, torture and mutilation of Ser Loras, or the unspeakable offense of dressing Queen Margaery in a drab potato sack. For that matter, the High Sparrow’s gender-based persecution and humiliation of Cersei (while letting Jaime and Lancel off the hook) was repugnant, as was his transparent intent to get her out of the way by rigging her “trial” in order to complete his consolidation of power. Using feigned religious belief and the supposed will of the gods as a pretext made him worse than Joffrey – who at least was out in the open with his cruelty.
      But enough about me. 😬

      You’re probably right that the inhabitants of KL would have been grateful that Cersei had “rid the city of violent, abusive fanatics.” (Pelting her with sh*t as she walked naked down Main Street wasn’t personal.. That’s how the rabble got their entertainment, as demonstrated by their later jeering of Cersei’s enemies, Ellaria and Tyene, as they were paraded through the streets of KL.)

      The “masses” may have supported the HS at first, when he had them believing he’d improve their lives. He put on a nice show, with his holy bullsh*t, supposed austerity, and soup kitchens to feed the poor. By the time the HS and his armed goons progressed to terrorizing the people (and outlawing the few diversions ordinary folks had to make their crappy lives halfway tolerable), anyone who got rid of that pontificating hypocrite and his jackass militants would be hailed as a liberator. (Plus, Cersei had to be admired for her chutpah. “That must have been something to see. Boom! I can’t believe someone would do that.” – HP.)

      Maybe that’s why nobody made a stink about blowing up the Sept.

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    149. Mr Derp,

      ”…I was initially told that no one knew who blew up the Sept. I countered that with in-show proof that everyone unofficially knew Cersei did it. However, that was countered with me being told that Hot Pie said what he said about Cersei just because he was trying to curry favor with Arya. Where is the proof for that?”

      At the risk of being redundant, I did not interpret anything Hot Pie said in volunteering that Cersei blew up the Sept (excerpted in my 3:52 pm comment) as suggesting he was trying to ingratiate himself with Arya. I am still not sure he even knew Arya had a particular dislike for Cersei.

      If Hot Pie was “trying to curry favor with Arya,” that came later in the scene when Arya was getting up to leave, and had nothing to do with Cersei or the Sept: After comping the meal (“Friends don’t pay”), Hot Pie said….

      I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty!”

      🍰❤️👸🏻

        Quote  Reply

    150. Mr Derp,

      ”…This actually taps into a minor issue I had with the show throughout. The common man never really had a voice in the show. They were really used as props more than anything. If they had more of a voice then it would be easier to know exactly how they felt.”

      That’s certainly true about the later seasons in general and any reaction to the HS’s demise in particular. (S6e10: Cool music, cool explosion…then Qyburn crowns Cersei at the end.)

      However, I thought the show did a pretty good job of giving voice to “the common man” in Arya’s story lines, especially in S3 and S4, e.g.:
      – Sally’s father explaining to Sandor & Arya how “the whole country had gone sour” in the dinner table scene in S4e3;
      – The speech by the mortally wounded dying farmer (“bad way to go”) to Arya & Sandor in S4e7;
      – The villagers/fellow inmates tortured at the Harrenhal prison camp in S3;
      – Arya’s fellow “gutter rats”/NW recruits (e.g., Lommy, Hot Pie and Gendry) in S1e10 – mid S2;
      – The innkeeper and his daughter terrorized by Polliver and his gang of predators in S4e1;
      – The friendly Lannister soldiers in S7e1, who were really just homesick boys conscripted “to fight in other people’s wars.”

      Those scenes not only gave voice to the “commonfolk,” but demonstrated Arya’s empathy for their plight.

      Nevertheless, as you observed, the commonfolk were otherwise reduced to “props” for the most part. When shown on screen, they were usually in large crowds, without any individual speaking parts. While the scenes I cited were not very long, they did convey how the regular folks felt about, and were impacted by, the wars of the squabbling lords and rival monarchs.

      It’s kind of strange that for all the talk professing concern for the small folk crushed by “the wheel” and the innocents who suffer when “the high lords play their game of thrones,” and fighting over the throne to (supposedly) liberate the people from “tyranny,” the show “kind of forgot” to give them a voice.

      As illustrated by a handful of scenes (e.g., those cited above), all it took was a couple of minutes and a competent guest actor to provide the perspective of the “everyman.” The showrunners were obviously capable of scripting such scenes. They added richness and context to the events depicted on screen. Interactions with “ordinary folks” evidenced the the main characters’ qualities more than their sidekicks’ appraisals or their own self-glorifying pronouncements.

      As a show-only fan, it’s my understanding that the books devoted significantly time to the travails of the “smallfolk.” I can appreciate that a lot of side stories and side characters have to be trimmed away in adapting the books to the screen.

      Still, in light of the themes of the show, with many of the main players purportedly motivated by concern (or disregard) for the welfare of “the people,” your comment has made me wonder why the brief but effective scenes early on that gave the common man “more of a voice,” kind of disappeared in the later seasons. (The conspicuous shortage of guest actresses and actors nominees in this year’s WotW Awards was telling.)

      Just to be clear, I am NOT whinging and I am NOT second-guessing the showrunners. I have no doubt that in streamlining the storylines for the show to progress to its conclusion, it would likely seem counterintuitive to consider inserting one-off cameo appearances by tertiary characters voicing the feelings and reactions of the commonfolk. I have assumed this wouldn’t take much screentime time or dialogue, but what do I know? I am not qualified to weigh in on screenwriting or production. (From my unprofessional perspective, every minute of screentime wasted on Euron could have been better spent in a million different ways.)

      P.S. Sorry so long. I couldn’t edit before posting.

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    151. HablaCarnage,

      Two examples of what I’d call “missing scenes”:

      • Jon’s revelation of his parentage to his sisters and their reactions to it was a scene “missing“ from S8e4.
      • Bran relating to Tyrion the story about journeying to the far north to become 3ER 2.0 was a “missing scene” in S8e2.

      Many commenters have already explained why, in great detail. (We can all rehash the reasons in depth or argue about them some other time. It’s past my bedtime. 💤)

      Caveat(s):
      – I don’t buy into the notion that characters imparting information the audience already knows renders their conversations extraneous and expendable.
      – Likewise, I disagree that an audience should indulge the presumption that important exchanges and interactions occurred offscreen.
      – I do not believe it’s fair to resort to ex post facto excuses to justify a dramatic conflict or mystery framed early on and frequently revisited, but left unresolved by the end.
      – As a corollary, I’d suggest that the extensiveness of a setup should be proportional to the significance of its payoff. Put another way, if a big “gun” has been hung, it shouldn’t fire a f*cking dud. (Nor should the loaded gun simply vanish.)
      – To me, “fast-pacing” is not achieved by omitting scenes to reduce run time, and expecting that the audience can extrapolate what happened instead – or won’t care.

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    152. Tensor the Mage, Who Loves Reading Biblical Prophecies for Amusement,

      Dear Tensor:

      I enjoy reading your comments, though often J don’t see them unless I scroll back a day or two. As you probably know, the slightest alteration in a screen name can trap a comment in Moderation Purgatory indefinitely.

      I’m not whining. I like your evolving screen names. I just wanted you to know that sometimes I’m not aware that you’ve replied to something I wrote.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Ser Creighton Longbough,

      I was one of those people, I’ve been banging on about Succession for months. Seeing it win all of those awards was very nice, though Jeremy Strong should have gotten more nominations for S2, as you will soon see. S2 is even better than S1.

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    154. So, I’m hopeful that WotW may come up with some different topics soon.

      Here are some awesome photos taken of GOT cast at the Oscars. These are all from GettyImages

      Great photo of Alfie
      I really like this closeup
      https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/english-actor-alfie-allen-arrives-for-the-92nd-oscars-at-the-dolby-picture-id1199748281?s=2048×2048
      (there’s a bunch more of Alfie in his tux on their site)

      Dean Charles Chapman:
      https://www.gettyimages.in/detail/news-photo/dean-charles-chapman-attends-the-92nd-annual-academy-awards-news-photo/1205120060?adppopup=true

      Jonathan Pryce:
      https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/jonathan-pryce-attends-the-92nd-annual-academy-awards-at-hollywood-picture-id1205156530?s=2048×2048

      Random Awesome Maisie Williams photo… (Not at Oscars)
      Maisie at Paris Fashion week in September 2019 with her boyfriend Reuben Selby.
      https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/couple-reuben-selby-and-maisie-williams-seen-outside-thom-browne-picture-id1178015456?s=2048×2048

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    155. Ten Bears,
      TormundsWoman,

      Thank you. And you’re right it seems that not everyone understands the difference between rushed, pacing, narrative etc (Not even myself, I had it explained to me by a guy who studied literature. Not talking to him anymore since he stated that GoT wasn’t great literature. Just kidding.)

      For me it’s always easy to see the difference if you look at who watch the show. I think there is not a single person who dislike fast-paced storytelling so now and then, sometimes it’s easier to follow it. (like a comedy show that 9 out of 10 is fast paced). But some people can’t watch slow-paced storytelling because they will loose interest when it doesn’t jump from one thing to the next, they need to get something fresh every 5 minutes. My mother for instance is like that, everything that is slow paced she just can’t watch (Except maybe if it’s a romantic show but I even think shows like outlander she won’t get into).

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    156. Young Dragon,

      The plothole that still bothers me was Sansa in season 7 I think, where she tells she knows Cersei because Cersei killed her father, brother etc. That was just not true, she had nothing to do with either death, it was Joffrey and Tywin. They forgot the events of the show (Especially when Sansa knew the truth about those events).

      Another is I forgot if it was season 7 or 8, but there was some mistake with alliances, but I have to watch the show again to pin-point the scene.

      But I don’t think they are really plotholes, those are I think more continue errors, and that is something else than a plothole.

      edit: and I dislike myself that the Iron Bank on the show is into slavery, when the Iron Bank was formed by former slaves. It just feels so wrong.

      But on the other thing, just let us agree to disagree then.

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    157. Pigeon,

      such a shame about that gas leak that happened below the Sept of Baelor.

      But serious, I wonder if people really think that Tysho believed Cersei? I think it’s pretty obvious that he knew she was lying but he just went with it, because money is more important.

      Ten Bears: Same as “poisoned by our enemies.”

      XDXDXD

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    158. Mr Derp,

      Didn’t the CIA (or secret service?) brought some documents to the public that it was done by one of the secret service in accident because of reacting to the shooter? At least that was on the dutch television a couple of years ago about that the US goverment released documents about his death.
      Doesn’t mean Oswald was not in it, he probably was there.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41771923

      https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4769921/jfk-assassination-who-killed-files-donald-trump/

      But I wonder why a couple of 100 documents are forbidden to be released to the public if they wanted to be transparent 2 years ago.

      Trump promised that those will be released in 2021 if he is elected. Seems he really wants a second term. He state he can’t release them now because it would cause harm to the national security. (More so than his tweets?)

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    159. Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard,

      The prove is season 5 and 6, the only question is why? It’s probably not for the faith itself, but the HS told the people what they want to hear: The fault of your miserable lives is because of the rich houses (and business man). By following the HS they could make sure they get a better life by destroying the houses (not that it’s true but it’s logical that they feel that way). Even our own history shows that the common folk would follow the HS.

      Even Jaime stated that the High Sparrow is too powerful because he got the common folk to support him, and that they can’t win against him. I think only the people who suffer more under the rules of the seven than under the rule of Cersei would be glad that the High Sparrow would be gone.

      Ser Creighton Longbough,

      Is that show already done (or almost done). I would like to bingewatch the whole series in one go 😀

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    160. Mr Derp,

      I really disliked that they went that way with the HS, they made him really evil. In the books he is not that evil, in the show I wanted him gone since episode 5×04. In the books I want him to win. He is not so evil in the books and more concern about how the houses uses the common people. (and it seems he had some other goals we just don’t understand yet). But making him that evil with homophobic, misogynistic etc is a easy way that we will support Cersei, and when Cersei wins over the HS it would feel like a victory instead of a defeat.

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    161. kevin1989,

      ”The plothole that still bothers me was Sansa in season 7 I think, where she tells she knows Cersei because Cersei killed her father, brother etc. That was just not true, she had nothing to do with either death, it was Joffrey and Tywin. They forgot the events of the show (Especially when Sansa knew the truth about those events).”

      Also, in early S7 on Dragonstone, didn’t Tyrion tell Dany that Jon had good reason to hate Cersei for the same (false) reasons?
      I am not sure this qualifies as a “plot hole.” I’m not sure what to call it.

        Quote  Reply

    162. kevin1989,

      Correction. Here’s what Tyrion said to Dany in S7e2 [excerpt below] about Jon Snow having reason to hate Cersei, i.e., because “the Lannisters” executed Ned and conspired to murder Robb.
      But Cersei had nothing to do with the Red Wedding conspiracy, and Tyrion surely knew that. And beheading Ned was dickhead Joffrey’s bright idea; Cersei had expected Joffrey to abide by the exile to the Wall + false treason confession deal that had been arranged with Ned.
      While Cersei had done a lot of crazy sh*t, it was unfair (and inaccurate) to attribute to her the deaths of Ned and Robb, or to assume that Jon would hate Cersei.

      S7e2
      Tyrion (to Dany): “I can’t speak to prophecies or visions in the flames, but I like Jon Snow and I trusted him, and I am an excellent judge of character.
      If he does rule the north, he would make a valuable ally. The Lannisters executed his father and conspired to murder his brother. Jon Snow has even more reason to hate Cersei than you do.”

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    163. Mr Derp: Ill tell you what.Ill provide proof for my assertion that the common people of KL approved of the HS as soon as you provide proof for your assertion that Hot Pie only told Arya that Cersei blew up the Sept because he was trying to curry favor with Arya.

      First, let’s note with amusement that no one else is ever under any obligation to help you (or me, or anyone) to make an argument. If you want your claims to fail for lack of evidentiary support, that is your business, not mine or anyone else’s. Assertions made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence, so there go your assertions of popular love for a heartless fanatic, and the supposed plot hole this creates. Better luck next time!

      As for proof of a young man wanting to curry favor with a young lady of his acquaintance — a young lady who just so happens to look exactly like Maisie Williams (!) — Ten Bears has already quoted that very same scene, wherein Hot Pie tells Arya she is “pretty.” That works for me; YMMV.

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    164. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two: First, let’s note with amusement that no one else is ever under any obligation to help you (or me, or anyone) to make an argument.

      This is just bizarre. You’re the one that’s trying to get me to prove my opinions to you when I feel no obligation to do so. I owe you nothing. I also didn’t say it was a plot hole at all. I simply said I was a little surprised that nothing came of the HS’s death, considering he was the only person to help the common people, who were already in a desperate situation as it was.

      You require proof from me to back up my opinions, yet you do not hold yourself to the same standard. You made a baseless claim about Hot Pie and you backed it up with absolutely nothing. I wasn’t even talking to you about this to begin with. I was talking to someone else and you decided the conversation needed an extra dose of internet snark, so you got involved. Hot Pie telling Arya that she’s pretty doesn’t prove that he said made something up about Cersei in order to curry favor with her. If you want to be taken seriously instead of being seen as someone trying to troll me because you don’t like my opinion, then don’t be such a hypocrite. Better luck next time.

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    165. Mr Derp,

      Wouldn’t that be a couple. Hot Pie and Arya. Together on a journey, always fresh bread available. Why didn’t Arya think of it?

      Bran: Is there anything I could do, Arya for the journey west?
      Arya: Well, if you could fetch the famous pie baker of all of the seven kingdoms that would help a lot.
      Bran: Say no more sis.

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    166. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,

      I call people pretty which I have no intention’s be be romantic or biblical with. People could just give an old friend a compliment that he clearly sees she want to hear?

      Or are some man/woman only nice to somebody else when they want something in return, like romance or a hot night? I don’t think Hot Pie falls in that category. (Which I always call “Nice guys”, between “” for a reason. They are only nice when they could get something in return)

      Mr Derp,

      Congrats Sophie turner.

        Quote  Reply

    167. kevin1989,

      • Aww, Hot Pie’s compliment was spontaneous and sincere. I don’t think he told her “I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty!” to hit on her.

      https://66.media.tumblr.com/d9b1957e3fccb0bfce723b41f7970885/tumblr_otktnsrDNk1qmoy4io3_500.gifv

      • I also thought the way Arya tentatively replied, “Thanks” was sweet. It showed that she was not used to hearing people telling her she’s beautiful. (And that she had outgrown the androgynous look that had enabled her to pass as a boy.)

      • Hot Pie would not need to resort to flattery or Cersei-bashing to win her affections or stir her passions: Arya was already moaning with pleasure as she wolfed down the pie from his tray.

      • And, he shared with her the priceless gift of his culinary magic: ”The secret is browning the butter before making the dough.”

      • He behaved like a gentleman: He picked up the tab. (”Friends don’t pay.”)

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    168. Mr Derp:
      Anyway, in more positive news, the North now has their next heir in line.Sophie Turner is reportedly pregnant.Congrats.

      “Tyrion Jonas” has a nice ring to it, wouldn’t you say?

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    169. Ten Bears: “Tyrion Jonas” has a nice ring to it, wouldn’t you say?

      Lol, how about Joffrey Jonas? It’s got the alliteration working for it and all. What could possibly go wrong? 😉

      What if it’s a girl though?

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    170. kevin1989,

      (This from July, 2018, in my reply to another commenter’s whimsical prediction that Arya would discover chocolate during her westward voyages.)

      Arya: “Mmm! This is really good! What is it?”
      Hot Pie: “Chocolate layer cake with fudge icing.”
      Arya: “How did you make it? Show me how. I want to be able to do it too.”
      Hot Pie: “If you would learn, you must get cacao for me.”
      Arya. “Where?”
      Hot Pie: “Far and away across the Narrow Sea in the New World, a place called Ecuador.”
      Arya: “Sounds great! When do we leave?”
      Hot Pie: “We“? Is it “we” already?”

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    171. Mr Derp: Lol, how about Joffrey Jonas?It’s got the alliteration working for it and all.What could possibly go wrong? 😉

      What if it’s a girl though?

      If Sophie channels her fictional alter-egos as Lady of WF + QitN, she could flip around her dialogue in Sansa’s S6e7 visit to Bear Island, and pay tribute to a heroine who gave her life defending Winterfell in S8e3, by naming her daughter… Lyanna.

        Quote  Reply

    172. Ten Bears,

      How were Tyrion and Varys stupid?

      Yes, Jon addressed Danerys as “my queen” but I still have no idea why people are making such a big deal about it. Sansa called Joffrey “Your Grace” more times than Jon called Danerys “my queen.”

      There was certainly a change in the dialogue once D&D ran out of Martin’s source material, but that was to be expected. It’s almost impossible to copy another writer’s style unless you have it right out in front of you. D&D have their own writing style, but I don’t consider it to be worse. The writing didn’t decline for me like it did for other people.

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    173. Ten Bears,

      Those scenes weren’t missing because they never existed in the first place. Bran telling Tyrion his story, a very long story that the audience already knew, was completely unnecessary. Such scenes of omission have already taken place in the show. We never saw Sansa receiving the news about the Red Wedding. And it cut off right when Tyrion was about to tell Sansa they were to be married, two scenes that would have required less time and explanation than for Bran to give a summary of his storyline in seasons 3-6.

      As for Arya and Sansa being told about Jon’s parentage offscreen, we’ve already seen the reveal three times. It was already beginning to be repetitive. There were two characters that the reveal needed to be given to were Jon and Danerys, for they are the two who would be affected the most.

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    174. kevin1989,

      When did Sansa say that? I rewatched all her scenes with Jon, and though Robb, Ned, and Cersei were brought up, she never said anything about Cersei being responsible for their deaths. Did she mention it to Arya or Littlefinger? I don’t remember this.

      Likewise, I don’t recall there being any contradiction with the alliances.

      Was it mentioned the Iron Bank was founded by slaves?

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    175. Ten Bears,

      So no, that’s not a plot hole. The Lannisters did murder Robb and Ned, and Cersei was now the head of House Lannister. And I would say she had a hand in Ned’s death. She was the one who imprisoned him under false pretenses.

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    176. Mr Derp: I also didn’t say it was a plot hole at all.

      You actually wrote, “we never got to see any reaction or fallout from the Sept explosion, that’s further evidence of a dropped plot point,” as Farimer already quoted.

      You’re criticizing the show for having a flaw, based on nothing other than your opinion — an opinion you keep ever-more-conspicuously *not* supporting with any actual material from the show.

      You’re calling this proof?

      It’s more than you’ve provided to support your opinion, now isn’t it?

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    177. I disagree I thought the padi
      Aaronia,

      The petition was toxic fandom entitlement to the max. It’s not your art you don’t get a say in how it’s made. You can choose to watch or to not watch.

        Quote  Reply

    178. kevin1989,

      Thank you for demonstrating how popular consensus on events can remain elusive, even after an investigation to our modern standards. Now, let us consider an illiterate and ill-informed population in a Dark Age city, in a world where magic actually exists. The chance they’re all going to agree on one single explanation for the Sept explosion is really, really small. (And even if they did all agree it was Cersei’s fault, what were they going to do about it?)

      Furthermore, we can speculate about an alternate explanation: that the Sparrows’ unprovoked violence against the common folk in the name of the Seven had actually angered the Seven, and the Seven then punished the Sparrows for it. This idea might also have popular appeal, and speaking such an idea would seem to be far less hazardous than publicly accusing the King’s own mother of having committed mass murder.

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    179. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two: You actually wrote, “we never got to see any reaction or fallout from the Sept explosion, that’s further evidence of a dropped plot point,” as Farimer already quoted.

      You’re criticizing the show for having a flaw, based on nothing other than your opinion — an opinion you keep ever-more-conspicuously *not* supporting with any actual material from the show.

      A dropped plot point and a plot hole do not have to be one in the same. It doesn’t mean there’s a hole in the story. It’s simply a plot point that I would’ve liked to have been fleshed out more. You seem to not have considered this possibility in your fervor to try and insult me.

      Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two: It’s more than you’ve provided to support your opinion, now isn’t it?

      Well no, actually it isn’t. Saying Hot Pie told Arya that Cersei was the one who blew up the Sept simply because he wanted to curry favor with her isn’t supported by anything at all whatsoever. That’s the silliest explanation I’ve ever heard. One that you haven’t supported at all in any way, shape or form. It’s the same thing you are enthusiastically attacking me for. You might as well say Varys is a merman too while you’re at and it’s proven because his bald head makes him swim faster. The hypocrisy is so off the charts that it’s not even amusing anymore.

      It’s kind of telling that you think I owe you anything after the way you’ve spoken to me.

      Oh no, some stranger on the internet thinks I’m wrong about something regarding a t.v. show! Save me Jon Snow!

        Quote  Reply

    180. Mr Derp,

      It’s simply a plot point that I would’ve liked to have been fleshed out more.

      As Farimer already explained to you, there’s no evidence this supposed “plot point” ever even existed in the first place, so your claim it was later “dropped” remains entirely groundless. Repeatedly stating your opinion as if it was a fact doesn’t make it one, no matter how tiresomely tedious your repetitions of it become. Likewise, the show not going the way you wanted is your problem, not a flaw in the story or telling.

      You’re also certainly entitled to your own interpretation of Hot Pie’s interaction with Arya; the only reason we ever mentioned it was your citing his repeating a rumor as “proof” many people far away believed that rumor. But Hot Pie hadn’t been anywhere near King’s Landing in years, and there’s no reason given in-show to make us believe his account was representative of any beliefs there.

      Once again, assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You’ve cited absolutely nothing from the show to support your oft-repeated claim the people of King’s Landing loved The High Sparrow, or cared in the slightest way about his death. Unless you do, all of your complaints of this “dropped plot point” are entirely meaningless.

      Please leave your utterly groundless complaints about the show somewhere other than on a fan site.

        Quote  Reply

    181. Young Dragon,

      It was in season 7×03 to LF: “The woman who murdered my mother, father and brother is dangerous … thank you for your wise council”

      She states Cersei murdered Ned, Cat and Robb. And with neither she had anything to do with. Either this is a continue error or Sansa is by far the smartest girl there is and pretty stupid. With Cat and Robb I can think she would think Cersei had something to with it, but I think even her should know that it was Tywin. Tyrion knew and would have shared it that it was his father and not himself that ordered it. Tyrion wanted Sansa to know he had nothing to do with it.
      But especially the dead of her father she know it was Joffrey not Cersei.

      And about Braavos being anti-slavery was not in the show but it was on the DVD extra’s of season 5 spoken by Mark Gatiss as Tycho Nestoris.
      So even if it was not in the show itself, D&D made it show-cannon by including it in their official history of Braavos on the DVDs where they explained things that can’t be explained in the show itself.

      Young Dragon,

      So Dany is responsible for her father’s crime? Tyrion was responsible for the crimes of Tywin? Sandor of the crimes that Sandor did? Doran was responsible for the crime of murdering Myrcella because he was the head of the house?
      No they weren’t. So neither was Cersei of the crimes of her father and son. She did her own crimes that she should pay for. And if Sansa sees it as that she is responsible for the crimes of her father and son, that make Sansa a dangerous person. No the simple answer is that they wanted a sentence that stick to the story of the show and want the audience to refeel the dislike for Cersei again. But still it’s a continue error. (Not a plothole that is something else)

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    182. Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard,

      If that was the case that the common folk believed Cersei’s story. The story about “Cersei blowing up the sept of Baelor” would not have traveled to for instance Hot Pie. I don’t think hot pie has magical abilities to see things others don’t. He got to know it from talking, and he wasn’t afraid to talk so freely about it, so that means it’s common knowledge it was Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    183. kevin1989,

      ”It was in season 7×03 to LF: “The woman who murdered my mother, father and brother is dangerous … thank you for your wise council”

      She states Cersei murdered Ned, Cat and Robb. And with neither she had anything to do with. Either this is a continue error or Sansa is by far the smartest girl there is and pretty stupid…”

      ——
      Good spot!

      And yes, barring a continuity error, Sansa would have to be the stupidest smartest person Arya ever met. 😬

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    184. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,

      If anything involving this conversation should not be welcomed at this site, it’s your abusive and unnecessary behavior.

      We are all fans of Game of Thrones. Even the most ardent fans have criticisms from time to time. The goal of the creators of WotW was to establish an enjoyable community for all fans, even the ones who didn’t think the show was perfect in every way. I am very tolerant of most people’s opinions on this website, even the ones I disagree with. It’s easy to disagree politely and respectfully. Unfortunately, you are either choosing to ignore that or you just don’t know any better. I don’t know and I don’t really care. Personal attacks are not permitted here. This a fan site. Not a sycophant site.

      Until the mods say otherwise, I’m going to continue posting my criticisms and praises of the show on this site whether you like it or not. You have no authority here nor are you some gatekeeper for who is and isn’t a fan of Game of Thrones.

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    185. kevin1989,

      Oh, now I see. As I said, it’s perfectly acceptable for Sansa to see her share the responsibility of Ned’s death, since she had him arrested under false pretenses. And no, I am no way saying that people should be held accountable for the crimes of their family, I’m just saying it happens in Westeros. Look at how Danerys was treated because of the crimes of her father. Look how Ellaria treated Myrcella. You may see this as a knock against Sansa’s character, but I don’t. It’s only natural that Sansa would attribute the crimes against her family to Cersei, considering how the queen treated her. As to why the showrunners put that scene in the show, I agree with your assessment.

      No, Braavos being anti-slavery is not canon because it wasn’t presented in the show itself. DVD extras don’t count as canon.

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    186. I can’t remember when Arya began reciting her kill list, but Cersei was certainly on it. So it’s possible that Hot Pie was aware of that.

        Quote  Reply

    187. Thanks Tron79 for the photos even if they were taken down – it’s always nice to see photos of the less talked about actors, especially Alfie, Jonathan, and Dean Charles at the Oscars, with both of their films in contention! Big night for all. 🙂

      Maisie and Reuben are kind of awesome, and so involved in building up small creator content with the company.

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    188. Pigeon:
      Thanks Tron79 for the photos even if they were taken down – it’s always nice to see photos of the less talked about actors, especially Alfie, Jonathan, and Dean Charles at the Oscars, with both of their films in contention!Big night for all. 🙂

      Maisie and Reuben are kind of awesome, and so involved in building up small creator content with the company.

      Thanks. Alfie had some really outstanding photos at the oscars.. I enjoy following the actors to see what they are up to. It’s also cool to see Tommen growing up!

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    189. kevin1989,

      Hot Pie hears many rumors, and recalling how much Arya hated Cersei, he repeats one unflattering to Cersei. By that standard, anything he hears is “common knowledge,” even though hearing rumors which conflict with each other is commonplace.

      You yourself linked to stories about continued public interest in JFK’s assassination. Fifty-plus years after a full investigation of huge amounts of evidence, there are still large public doubts about the conclusions in the Warren Report. (And that is in a world where “magic,” and “the gods,” are not serious explanations.) There’s no reason to believe the inhabitants of King’s Landing ever agreed on one explanation, either.

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    190. Mr Derp,

      Still no evidence to support your “dropped plot point” claim, we see. Quelle surprise.

      I read this site for the many great insights authors and commenters provide. When I saw your assertion about how the people of King’s Landing had loved The High Sparrow at the time of his death, that got my attention. I’ve watched Seasons 5 and 6 multiple times, yet had never noticed such a thing. I eagerly awaited for you to elaborate, to show me what I had missed.

      But you didn’t; you just kept repeating your opinion as if it were a fact, and then using this as basis for complaining of a “dropped plot point.” When called on how unfair to the show this was, you replied with a jejune taunt of the form, “show me yours and I’ll show you mine.”

      Well, if you act like a schoolboy, I’ll treat you like one. If you ignore the most basic conventions of facts, logic and reason, you’ll get a lecture on those basics. That you don’t like being on the receiving end of such lectures doesn’t make them “personal attacks” (what did you believe, that I would reach both hands through the screen and go all Valonquar on you?), just an accurate description of your failures. And no, stating your opinion as fact, treating honest requests for evidence as personal affronts, and complaining about getting called on your unfair criticism of the show does not constitute a demonstration of respect for this site and your fellow readers. Rather the opposite, in fact.

      I asked you not to comment in such ways here. As you noted, I have no enforcement authority. I’m merely a messenger; what you do with the message is your business. Have a good day, sir.

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    191. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,

      I haven’t followed this whole back and forth, but from what I remember, the Sparrows gained power through sheer numbers, nobody could get rid of them because there were hundreds, if not thousands of them. They travelled to KL from other Kingdoms, and the poor within KL joined the cause. When Cersei armed them, it was game over. They didn’t all die in the Sept explosion, but without a leader, would they revolt? Or just go back to where they came from? I don’t know, but I do think that the Sept explosion was too ‘neat’.

      I personally think Cersei will die soon after this in the books, she’s not smart enough to be Queen, obviously she is smarter in the show, and they weren’t going to kill her off in S7. So they had to tie things up and put her on the throne. She then positioned Dany as a greater threat to keep the Lords on side, so it was briefly covered in the show.

      I also think we are meant to understand that the story got out, people know what she did, but they can’t do anything. Olenna obviously joins Dany, and the others side with Cersei against them. Hot Pie had to have heard the story, how else would he even know about the explosion? Never mind who did it. He also happens to be 100% correct, it would have been more realistic to have him say that Tyrion snuck back into KL to kill his enemies, something totally ridiculous.

      Farimer123,

      Given their origins, it would be pretty weird if they were pro slavery. It’s like the Golden Company, they wouldn’t fight with Cersei against a Targaryen, their leaders are practically Targaryens themselves. They never covered that in the show, so it doesn’t matter, all part of keeping Cersei alive longer than she should have been. She needed allies from somewhere against a totally OP Dany.

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    192. Farimer123,

      If I’m not mistaken Braavos was founded by slaves who broke free. Founding the House of Black and White was their revolution -as in Death is salvation from misery. (it’s in Arya’s chapters). Also, they’re blatantly anti-dragon. But it also happens that they’re bankers, so they don’t take these things into consideration?

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    193. Young Dragon,

      The only thing Sansa did to expedite things was to tell Cersei that they were leaving (if I’m not mistaken; this is definitely in the books). But that’s hardly “she had him arrested”.
      Ned forgot the #1 rule of conspiracies: don’t tell.
      Stupid fool told Cersei that he knew her children were Jamie’s. They were illegitimate, so they had no claim on the throne, neither did she as a queen with no offspring of the king.
      Also, Ned notified Stannis about the illegitimacy of Cersei’s children; he also conspired with Renly and LF. All that is high treason tenfold.
      High treason gets you arrested, not your kid.
      High treason gets you killed.
      The capital punishment is reserved for conspirators in all medieval regimes.
      Ned should have known better. He went into KL with the intention to investigate the death of Jon Arryn, taking his daughters with him. Unwittingly (?) he made them first his cover for being there (because of Sansa’s betrothal) and then he allowed that they become the regime’s hostages while he conspired against the Lannisters. What did he think, that if anything went wrong they wouldn’t use them against him? That they wouldn’t be used for making the North to comply? That they’d be treated as well as he treated his own hostage, Theon?
      Forgive me for saying this, but Ned is the personification of the “Northern fool”. He deserved what happened to him.
      His girls on the other hand, and his boys, didn’t deserve one bit what happened to them because of his stupidity. He was the adult. They were the minors.

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    194. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Did we ever see this Vogue video before?

      “24 Hours with Maisie Williams” – Vogue

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2OuV0sEa9o

      (Maisie Williams at Fashion Week 2019)

      Thanks for the video. Yes I did see at least part of that one when it first came out. She is a model, singer, actor, dancer, and entrepreneur! The camera really does love her. It’s pretty amazing. I do hope she gets to sink her teeth into a major dramatic role as I posted earlier. She will probably be sinking her teeth into someone as Wolfsbane too.

        Quote  Reply

    195. A bit off topic but on some of the thumbnails of anti-season 8 videos I’ve seen (but not necessarily clicked on), I’ve noticed pictures of a GoT character (often Daenerys) with large bug eyes (a bit like the eyes that are used when making soft toys for children – only these eyes are disproportionately large). Does anybody know where the use of the bug eyes came from – their use in thumbnails is becoming hackneyed and stale now. I saw something of that type in association with the “Birds of Prey” film recently though I haven’t seen “Birds of Prey” so can’t say if it’s to my liking or not.

        Quote  Reply

    196. Tron79,

      “She [Maisie] will probably be sinking her teeth into someone as Wolfsbane too.

      If the rumors are true, I’m anticipating that Maisie as Rahne Sinclair/Wolfsbane in “New Mutants” will probably do more than sink her teeth into bad guys.

      In a roundabout way, I may finally get the Wolf Girl + Dany bonding moments I had been looking forward to before S8 of Game of Thrones. It looks like there will be high thread count, interpersonal Wolf Girl + Dani scenes in “New Mutants.”

      From Screenrant:

      https://screenrant.com/new-mutants-marvel-movie-mirage-wolfsbane-lesbian-couple-first/amp/%5B/spoiler%5D
      The official New Mutants trailer…
      “features much in the way of previously-unseen footage from the dark, horror-flavored superhero film. It also hints heavily at [spoiler] a LGBT romance that’s been rumored, but unconfirmed, for much of the last year.

      Among other things, The New Mutants trailer shows Rahne Sinclair aka Wolfsbane (Game of Thrones’ Maisie Williams) and Dani Moonstar aka Mirage (Another Life costar Blu Hunt) both alone together and, in a different moment, being fairly intimate with one another. It was rumored last March the two characters would be in a romantic relationship in the film, and the trailer strongly suggests that is, in fact, the case. Adding more fuel to the fire, a separate report claiming Wolfsbane and Mirage have a romance in The New Mutants only dropped a couple days into 2020.

      ————
      From Entertainment Weekly:

      https://ew.com/movies/new-mutants-trailer-breakdown/

      ”Young love”
      Rumors have been swirling recently about The New Mutants possibly seeing Rahne and Dani in a relationship. Though it remains unconfirmed, the trailer seems to suggest it’s true. As they say, huge if true. It would mark the first lead LGBTQ superheroes in a major comic book-based Hollywood film.
      ***
      It’s also appropriate that a werewolf-like mutant finds herself drawn to another with the last name of “Moonstar.”

      Especially after the interminable delays, it would be nice if this movie is a hit, with Maisie again taking on a groundbreaking role.

        Quote  Reply

    197. Young Dragon,

      As for Sansa: Cersei was the one that helped her with many things, even Sansa saw that Cersei hated what Joffrey did to Ned. This was by far what Cersei wanted. Cersei have enough to be blamed for, but killing of the Starks wasn’t one of them.

      As for the dvd-extra: It is cannon because D&D made it cannon. It was the history and lore of the show version of the story. Just as with the books it’s cannon what GRRM writes in his other books like Fire and Blood, it’s only there to be a contribution to the main story, but it’s still cannon. D&D wrote this dvd extra as building of their cannon.

      Extra’s on DVD bluray etc are cannon because they are on the official release where we paid for. It’s like the names of every houses that is at the end of the books, it’s not part of the official story, but it was with the release of the books.

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    198. Tensor the Mage, Who Knows A Tavern-Told Tale or Two,

      There’s a difference between those 2, as you state it’s 50 years, and they just released some stuff 2 years ago (official) with the released documents that they even admitted they can’t release 200+ documents because of security. The state admitted there was more too it than was told 50 years ago.

      With Cersei it’s just a month or 2. Words doesn’t travel that fast. And if the common folk really believed the story of Cersei there wouldn’t be talk. Yes some would talk about it and suspect, but the chance that it became such a big news at the inn that Hot Pie could state it as a fact to Arya, well let’s say I rather put my money on the state lottery.

      It would be more logical if hot pie would have spoken like: The sept of Baelor was blown up, some think Cersei was to blame.
      Arya: Knowing Cersei, it was probably her.

      Farimer123,

        Quote  Reply

    199. Waouh, that’s a lot of comment, not sure I read them all or remember who said what. So just my two cents.
      On Sansa/Cersei: I agréé with Young Dragon. It’s coherent with Westeros and Sansa’s évolution. Besides, Cersei tore the King ‘s Last decree, put her bastard on the thrones, named herself Queen regent, named Tywyn hand, so she is fully responsible for all this (even Tywyn holds her so for not controlling Joffrey) . Not a continue error, possibly an hyperbole (Tyrion:”Figure of speech”). Agree with Efi: Ned was a fool, trying to play the game while sucking at the rules, but disagree : not as big a traitor as Cersei (he just changed a wording, she had the King killed, lied about her children, and trespassed his last decree).
      Hot Pie and Sept: He says “I *heard* Cersei did it” and “can’t think someone could do that” (not sure about the exact wording). For me it means “rumor, a bit hard to believe” ans Arya’s answer “yeah, sounds plausible”, so I agree with Tensor the Mage, a suspicion, not a everybody knows. Also agree we never see thé masses supporting the HS (we hear himself suggest so, and some fancy people who never bother to care about what the masses think assuming it). What we did see is the masses cheering Margery (whom the HS jails), and rejoicing at Cersei ‘s atonement- just like they cheered Ned’ s beheading or Euron with his captives (“they just enjoy heads on spikes”). I was not surprised by their lack of reaction (we’ve been told before that they don’t care who has the power. They only rioted earlier when there was a food shortage: Sansa has not forgotten when she worries about feeding her people in the last seasons).

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    200. Grandmaester Flash: Right, so no mystery then about Hot Pie knowing that Arya hates Cersei. He was with her at Harrenhal.

      Is there any indication Hot Pie ever overheard Arya reciting her list?

      • In S2e3 [the origin of Arya’s list from Yoren’s recital of “Willem” as prayer], Hot Pie was in the room when Arya was recounting to Yoren how she vividly remembers seeing Joffrey, Cersei and Sansa standing on the dais when Ned was executed. However, Hot Pie and the other NW recruits were sound asleep*, and there was nothing to suggest Hot Pie overheard the conversation:

      S2e3 Arya and Yoren

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj72-2TkX9Q

      Arya: “How do you sleep?”
      Yoren: “Same as most men, I think.”
      Arya: “But you’ve seen things. Horrible things.”
      Yoren: “Aye. I’ve seen some pretty things, too, but not nearly so many.”
      Arya: “How do you sleep when have those things in your head?”
      Yoren: “You didn’t see that! I made damn sure.”
      Arya: “I close my eyes and I see them up there. All of them standing there. Joffrey, the Queen and…and my sister.”
      Yoren: “You know, we’ve got something in common, me and you.
      You know that? I must have been a couple of years older than you.
      I saw my brother stabbed through the heart right on our doorstep.
      He weren’t much of a villain what skewered him. Willem, the lad’s name was….”

      * Fun Fact: Not only was Hot Pie sleeping, but Ben Hawkey actually fell asleep during the filming of that scene. 😴 (Now that’s what I call method acting!)

      ———

      • Later [in S3e2], while Hot Pie, Arya and Gendry were journeying through the Riverlands after escaping Harrenhal, Gendry started whinging to Arya about squandering the three kills offered by Jaqen. Gendry complained that Arya could have named Joffrey or Tywin. Neither Gendry nor Hot Pie mentioned Cersei.

      ———
      Arya, Hot Pie & Gendry S3e2 (before meeting Thoros and BwoB)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDroNbd0-5U

      Gendry: “I’m just trying to understand.”
      Arya: “Would you please shut up about it?”
      Gendry: “Jaqen H’ghar offered you three kills.”
      Arya: “- I’m not listening.”
      Gendry: “- But just explain it to me.
      He offered to kill any three people you wanted. Dead. All you had to do was give him the names. Anyone.
      You could have picked King Joffrey…”
      Arya: “Shut up!”
      Gendry: “- You could have picked Tywin Lannister.”
      Arya: “Jaqen got us out of Harrenhal, so why are you complaining?”
      Gendry: “But you could have ended the war.”
      Arya: “Where are we going?”
      Gendry: “North.”
      Arya: “If we were going north, we should have come to the Red Fork River by now.”
      Hot Pie: “Maybe we already passed it.”
      Arya: “It’s 100 feet wide. HOW could we have passed it? If we hit the Red Fork, we can follow it west to Riverrun. My mother grew up there. My grandfather’s a lord. He’ll protect us.”
      ***
      —————-
      Yeah, I know this is hardly conclusive evidence that Hot Pie didn’t know Cersei was on Arya’s hit list. I’m just not aware of anything that demonstrates he did.

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    201. Efi,

      Ned forgot the #1 rule of conspiracies: don’t tell. Stupid fool told Cersei that he knew her children were Jamie’s. They were illegitimate, so they had no claim on the throne, neither did she as a queen with no offspring of the king…”

      Ned also forgot Rule #2 of conspiracies: Make absolutely sure your own daughters are safe and sound, far away from the zone of danger, before you give your enemy a head’s up so she can get her kids out of town.

      Ned was so concerned about the welfare of Cersei’s incest bastards once the sh*t hit the fan; I guess he “kind of forgot” about his own children.

      I understand that in the books Sansa went whining to Cersei that Ned was sending her back to WF. On the show, it was solely Ned’s decision to alert Cersei (that he’d discovered her kids were bastards, and that she’d better leave town with them ASAP because he intended to reveal the truth to Robert upon his return from his hunting trip), that placed both of his daughters in peril. Either way, he should have packed up Sansa and Arya and immediately whisked them away. He could have dealt with Sansa’s distress over leaving her beloved Joffrey and Arya’s disappointment over the interruption of her lessons with Syrio, after they were back home.

      I thought in GRRM’s world there was always a premium on taking family members as hostages. How could Ned not foresee that Cersei would attempt to take custody of his daughters to use them as bargaining chips?

      Maybe Ned could not foresee exactly how events would unfold Yet he surely should have anticipated that dropping the bombshell on Cersei would unleash a sh*tstorm. He was not on his home turf. and had even admitted to Arya as soon as they’d arrived in KL: “We’ve come to a dangerous place.

      Ned had also traveled to KL in the first place, at least in part, to investigate the suspicious death of Jon Arryn and Lysa’s accusation that the Lannisters had murdered him. He’d already seen Cersei’s vicious streak on the trip south when she insisted on killing Sansa’s direwolf. (As I recall, Cat followed Ned south after finding the blonde hair in the WF tower, and then got bamboozled by LF once she got there, so that she believed the Lannisters were responsible for both Bran’s fall as well as the subsequent assassination attempt.)

      With all that he knew and already suspected, how in the world could Ned think Cersei would just cave in to his ultimatum and go on the run (no doubt pursued by a vengeful cuckolded Robert)?

      The “honorable” Ned Stark may have disclosed what he’d discovered to Cersei and given her advance warning because he did not want to have the blood of Cersei’s kids on his hands. Did he not consider that his own children could be targeted by a vindictive Cersei?

      I still don’t understand what he was thinking.
      Do the books justify Ned’s failure to get his daughters out of harm’s way before confronting Cersei? Was he just a “stupid fool”? That’s how I perceived him on the show insofar as his daughters’ safety was concerned. (After all, whatever plan he had and whatever risks to himself he was willing to take, all went to sh*t because both of his daughters were still in KL when he made his move. Neither one of his daughters knew why it was imperative that they leave – and not tell a soul about it.)

      I did not intend to go off on a Ned-bashing rant. It’s just that for all the show! and book! backstory establishing Ned as a loving father and role model (and devoted brother who sacrificed so much to protect his sister’s son from danger and keep him safe), it seemed to me that he utterly failed when it came to fulfilling his primary, overriding responsibility as a father: protecting his children.

      In my book, that obligation far outweighed the importance of solving the mystery of Jon Arryn’s sudden death; retracing Jon Arryn’s investigation; safeguarding Cersei’s bastards from Robert’s wrath; ensuring the proper line of succession; and sparing his friend from embarrassment.

      Am I wrong?

        Quote  Reply

    202. Efi,

      I think you misunderstood me. I’m saying that Sansa would hold Cersei responsible for Ned’s death, despite her not giving the order, because she had him arrested under false pretenses. I never said Sansa should be blamed. Her telling Cersei never even happened in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    203. kevin1989,

      Maybe you’re thinking about the books, because I don’t recall a scene where Cersei expressed her displeasure regarding Ned’s death while Sansa was present. Regardless, Cersei still had Ned arrested and put him on that platform. If that never happened, Ned would still be alive.

      The show is canon. Only the show. Nothing else. A lot of people don’t watch the extras anyway, so how can that be considered canon?

        Quote  Reply

    204. Jenny,

      …the Sparrows gained power through sheer numbers, nobody could get rid of them because there were hundreds, if not thousands of them. They travelled to KL from other Kingdoms, and the poor within KL joined the cause. When Cersei armed them, it was game over. They didn’t all die in the Sept explosion, but without a leader, would they revolt?

      Bingo. They had numbers, and once Cersei had armed them *and* told the Gold Cloaks not to interfere with them, they could do as they liked. (The montage showing the creation of the Faith Militant from the Sparrows and their rampage through King’s Landing has a merchant appeal to a Gold Cloak for help as the goon squad ravages his business; the Gold Cloak silently turns away.) Armed and organized beats otherwise; Cersei knew she could recover the situation by ordering the armed and armored Gold Cloaks to destroy the goons. (Until she was caught in a trap of her own making…)

      We can assume every member of the Faith Militant, and all of the Sparrows who could fit, would be in the Sept during the trials of the highborn sinners. Once The High Sparrow, all of the Faith Militant, and many Sparrows died, the survivors would be leaderless. Even if they were still armed, Cersei could (and would) send the Gold Cloaks to mow them down, or expel them from the city.

      I also think we are meant to understand that the story got out, people know what she did, but they can’t do anything. Olenna obviously joins Dany, and the others side with Cersei against them. Hot Pie had to have heard the story, how else would he even know about the explosion? Never mind who did it.

      Sure, there were probably lots of rumors, and Hot Pie told Arya one she might like to hear; to a captain of the Lannister Guard, he might have repeated a completely different rumor about another topic. He works at an Inn, and if he’s learned anything there, it’s to chat up customers with what they want to hear.

      He also happens to be 100% correct…

      I liked the running gag about unschooled nobody Hot Pie being completely right about every topic on which he speaks, at least from “Winterhell” onwards.

      Given their origins, it would be pretty weird if they were pro slavery. It’s like the Golden Company, they wouldn’t fight with Cersei against a Targaryen, their leaders are practically Targaryens themselves.

      I believe A Man told A Girl about how the Faceless Men originated in the mines of Valyria, killing their masters. I don’t recall the show telling us anything about the Iron Bank’s foundation.

      Even if both institutions were founded by former slaves, Tycho Nestoris’ noncommittal response to Cersei need not be interpreted as an endorsement of slavery. As we know, Dany abolished slavery with no idea of what to do next; the economic dislocation this would have caused might have impinged upon the Iron Bank’s business. So, even if the Iron Bank was founded by escaped slaves and cherished that institutional memory, Dany was bad for business in the short term; hence Tycho’s equivocal talk with Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Efi,

      Good run-down on Ned’s various foolish stupidities. He did a few more foolishly incendiary things, apparently confident that nothing could go wrong so long as he had Robert’s patronage:

      — When Cat made the incredible mistake of kidnapping the heir to one of the Great Houses of Westeros, Ned took responsibility for it;

      — When Robert ordered his Hand to have Tyrion released, Ned ignored this direct order (!) from his friend and King;

      — Ned responded to The Mountain’s provocation in the Riverlands (almost surely ordered by Tywin) by summoning Tywin to the capital, giving Tywin an excuse to come in force;

      — Ned betrayed the last request of his dying friend (!!) and King, first by altering his Last Will and Testament, and then by refusing to act as Lord Protector of the Realm and Regent to Joffrey, as Robert had so ordered with his dying breath (!!!). (How this unfaithful idiot ever got a reputation for being “honorable,” I’ll never know.)

      Ned forgot the #1 rule of conspiracies: don’t tell.

      And he didn’t even have to conspire, really. He was Lord Protector of the Realm, Regent to Joffrey. With absolutely perfect legality, he could have commanded the Kingsguard (to keep Joffrey and Cersei briefly under house arrest), and had Baelish pay the Gold Cloaks to support these claims. From there, he packs Cersei off to Casterly Rock, essentially adopts Joffrey, and starts being an actual father figure to the boy. Given that Show!Joffrey had the only good ideas on governance in the early part of the story, they might have made a really good team. But that would not have made for as entertaining a story, now would it? 😉

      High treason gets you arrested, not your kid.

      Maybe not on Westeros, but in actual Dark Age England it could. In response, the American Constitution severely limits the definition of treason, and limits the punishment to the traitor alone, not his family.

        Quote  Reply

    206. kevin1989,

      ”So Dany is responsible for her father’s crime? Tyrion was responsible for the crimes of Tywin? Sandor of the crimes that [Gregor] did? Doran was responsible for the crime of murdering Myrcella because he was the head of the house?
      No they weren’t. So neither was Cersei [for] the crimes of her father and son. She did her own crimes that she should pay for. And if Sansa sees it as that [Cersei] is responsible for the crimes of her father and son, that makes Sansa a dangerous person.

      No, the simple answer is that they wanted a sentence that stick to the story of the show and want the audience to re-feel the dislike for Cersei again. But still it’s a [continuity] error. (Not a plothole that is something else.)”

      I concur. I reviewed (again) the except you cited (from S7e3), in which Sansa referred to Cersei as
      The woman who murdered my mother, father and brother,” and the excerpt I had referred to (from S7e2), in which Tyrion told Dany that Jon Snow has more reasons than Dany to hate Cersei because the Lannisters killed Ned and conspired to murder Robb,

      As you noted, while Cersei has an impressive rap sheet, she did not murder Catelyn, Ned or Robb. Cersei had nothing to do with the Red Wedding, and had agreed with Ned on a false confession/exile to the Wall deal – which Psycho Joffrey unexpectedly repudiated.

      Further, I too did not interpret Sansa’s declaration to LF as implying that any murders committed by any Lannisters were automatically attributable to Cersei. As with the examples you listed (e.g., Sandor & Gregor; Dany & Aerys; Tyrion & Tywin), a family member isn’t guilty just because he or she is related by blood to the killer.

      In fact, Jon Snow made it abundantly clear (in S7e1?) that he would not impute to the Umber and Karstark kids their fathers’ treasons; and (in S7e3?) he agreed that Dany was not responsible for her father’s crimes against the Starks.

      Therefore, Sansa’s description of Cersei as “the woman who murdered my mother, father and brother” was either a continuity error, or a sloppy retcon to vilify Cersei – long after the departures of the real perpetrators (Tywin and Joffrey) from the show. I do not recall anything suggesting Sansa was misled, or mistakenly believed Cersei was complicit. Sansa’s declaration to LF came out of left field.

      So, while Sansa – and the audience – had good reasons to despise Cersei, those reasons did not include the murders of Cat, Ned or Robb.

      I don’t know if the writers just assumed the audience would forget what had been established as show canon, in order to portray Cersei as the “Big Bad,” or to give Sansa (and Arya) personal motives for seeking vengeance against Cersei.

      The only other possibility I can think of was not addressed in the show: That both Sansa and Arya* mistakenly assumed Cersei was behind Ned’s execution, and never realized that it was all vicious Joffrey’s stupid last-minute idea. However, that still wouldn’t explain attributing the murders of Robb and Catelyn to Cersei.

      * As I recall, Arya blamed Joffrey (and later, Sandor) for Mycah’s death. I must be forgetting how Cersei made it onto Arya’s list. Did she blame Cersei for Ned’s execution? Or was it for insisting on killing Lady in place of Nymeria?
      I do know that when the friendly Lannister soldiers in S7e1 asked Arya why she was heading to KL, she answered “I’m going to kill the Queen,” and they though it was a joke. In S7e4 Bran told Arya he “saw” her at the Crossroads and thought she’d be heading to KL because “Cersei’s on her list of names.” And finally, in S8e4 she rode to KL and in S8e5 infiltrated the Red Keep, insisting Sandor: “I’m going to kill her!”
      I must be drawing a blank. 🤢

        Quote  Reply

    207. Young Dragon,

      Ok, so the “she had him arrested” was “Cersei had him arrested”? (don’t mind me, I’m not English native, these sudden changes of subject confuse me). Sorry.

      I got the point. I understand that Sansa might need to suppress her own mistake there (which imo wasn’t a mistake because she had been kept away from Ned’s worries, unlike Arya) by accusing Cersei, but your comment got me thinking to what extent is Cersei not culpable for the events.
      Even if she wasn’t involved in Ned’s execution or in the Red Wedding, this entire thing started because they were trying to cover up her crimes. Her incest with Jamie is not something that’s just between them. It’s something that affects an entire kingdom. In the show she even made sure to get rid of Robert’s babies. This is treason, since Robert wasn’t just her husband whom she didn’t like so she cheated, he was the king and he needed those heirs.
      In the books there’s no such thing, and Cersei only has three children, all Jamie’s. Now that I think about it perhaps that’s the reason why Martin made Cersei so bad in the books. Perhaps he’s building her culpability that will lead to her death. Cersei drowned her friend Melara first when she was very young. This would point to a criminal behavior almost from childhood. The point would be, I guess, to showcase how she’s fully conscious of what she’s doing, and how she’s doing it to take her revenge on Robert, and for this she’s using Jamie (who’s as dumb as it gets, but I digress).
      So it was Jamie who pushed Bran out of the window to cover up the incest; it was whoever who tried to kill him again (probably for the same reason, but we’ll see); it was Joffrey who ordered Ned’s execution because Joffrey knew that Ned knew; it was Tywin who plotted for the RW. Cersei’s criminal behavior got her entire family involved in the most heinous crimes; everything happened for her and her children whose birth was the product of crime anyway.
      In all this, only Tommen and Myrcella are without guilt. And even though Cersei wasn’t directly involved in the RW and Ned’s execution she looks guilty as a moral instigator, since her initial crime (incest, treason against the king) started a chain of events that turned out to be catastrophical for the entire kingdom.

        Quote  Reply

    208. AnnOther,

      “Agree with Efi: Ned was a fool, trying to play the game while sucking at the rules, but disagree : not as big a traitor as Cersei (he just changed a wording, she had the King killed, lied about her children, and trespassed his last decree).”

      Totally, but it’s not about who’s treason is worst. They both committed treason, it’s just that Cersei committed treason against Robert and she won because she moved faster after he died. She wouldn’t have, had Ned kept silent about his plans. Ned acted honorably, but honor got him arrested and killed.
      Ned didn’t take into account -or he did, but chose to disregard it out of a sense of righteousness perhaps- is that Cersei was the queen anyway, and she had a powerful family behind her. She wasn’t alone in this, while Robert was, because the Lannisters had taken the entire state mechanism to their side. When you’re wearing the crown you’re still the king no matter if someone thinks that you shouldn’t. Joffrey was king after Robert died, and Joffrey won because he had his family’s support, so Ned was found on the guilty side and what he did was treason.
      Had he won he’d be hailed as a kingmaker by putting Stannis on the throne. But he didn’t win so he was charged with high treason.

        Quote  Reply

    209. Ten Bears,

      “Did she blame Cersei for Ned’s execution? Or was it for insisting on killing Lady in place of Nymeria?”

      Watching the show it seems as if Cersei appears out of the blue in Arya’s list, while the audience knows that Cersei is not directly responsible for Ned’s execution.
      But I think it’s both these things, Ned’s execution and Mika (not Lady). Arya would knew who wanted Mika dead. Arya also knew who ordered her father’s arrest; had he not been arrested, he’d be alive.

        Quote  Reply

    210. Ten Bears: Yeah, I know this is hardly conclusive evidence that Hot Pie didn’t know Cersei was on Arya’s hit list. I’m just not aware of anything that demonstrates he did.

      No, we weren’t shown Hot Pie witnessing Arya reciting her list, but we aren’t shown everything. They were together for a while and the list became part of Arya’s routine, so it’s fair to assume he was aware of it.

      As for the conversation about Jaqen and the three named victims. Gendry wasn’t concerned with Arya’s personal feelings, but the greater good. Killing Cersei wouldn’t have ended the war. But he might have gone on to mention her if Arya hadn’t changed the subject.

      Anyway it’s just a minor point addressed to whoever suggested that Hot Pie couldn’t have known about Arya’s hatred of Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    211. Ten Bears:
      kevin1989,

      ”So Dany is responsible for her father’s crime? Tyrion was responsible for the crimes of Tywin? Sandor of the crimes that [Gregor] did? Doran was responsible for the crime of murdering Myrcella because he was the head of the house?
      No they weren’t. So neither was Cersei [for] the crimes of her father and son. She did her own crimes that she should pay for. And if Sansa sees it as that [Cersei] is responsible for the crimes of her father and son, that makes Sansa a dangerous person.


      No, the simple answer is that they wanted a sentence that stick to the story of the show and want the audience to re-feel the dislike for Cersei again. But still it’s a [continuity] error. (Not a plothole that is something else.)”

      I concur. I reviewed (again) the except you cited (from S7e3), in which Sansa referred to Cersei as
      The woman who murdered my mother, father and brother,” and the excerpt I had referred to (from S7e2), in which Tyrion told Dany that Jon Snow has more reasons than Dany to hate Cersei because the Lannisters killed Ned and conspired to murder Robb,

      As you noted, while Cersei has an impressive rap sheet, she did not murder Catelyn, Ned or Robb. Cersei had nothing to do with the Red Wedding, and had agreed with Ned on a false confession/exile to the Wall deal – which Psycho Joffrey unexpectedly repudiated.

      Further, I too did not interpret Sansa’s declaration to LF as implying that any murders committed by any Lannisters were automatically attributable to Cersei. As with the examples you listed (e.g., Sandor & Gregor; Dany & Aerys; Tyrion & Tywin), a family member isn’t guilty just because he or she is related by blood to the killer.

      In fact, Jon Snow made it abundantly clear (in S7e1?) that he would not impute to the Umber and Karstark kids their fathers’ treasons; and (in S7e3?) he agreed that Dany was not responsible for her father’s crimes against the Starks.

      Therefore, Sansa’s description of Cersei as “the woman who murdered my mother, father and brother” was either a continuity error, or a sloppy retcon to vilify Cersei – long after the departures of the real perpetrators (Tywin and Joffrey) from the show. I do not recall anything suggesting Sansa was misled, or mistakenly believed Cersei was complicit. Sansa’s declaration to LF came out of left field.

      So, while Sansa – and the audience – had good reasons to despise Cersei, those reasons did not include the murders of Cat, Ned or Robb.

      I don’t know if the writers just assumed the audience would forget what had been established as show canon, in order to portray Cersei as the “Big Bad,” or to give Sansa (and Arya) personal motives for seeking vengeance against Cersei.

      The only other possibility I can think of was not addressed in the show: That both Sansa and Arya* mistakenly assumed Cersei was behind Ned’s execution, and never realized that it was all vicious Joffrey’s stupid last-minute idea. However, that still wouldn’t explain attributing the murders of Robb and Catelyn to Cersei.

      * As I recall, Arya blamed Joffrey (and later, Sandor) for Mycah’s death. I must be forgetting how Cersei made it onto Arya’s list. Did she blame Cersei for Ned’s execution? Or was it for insisting on killing Lady in place of Nymeria?I do know that when the friendly Lannister soldiers in S7e1 asked Arya why she was heading to KL, she answered “I’m going to kill the Queen,” and they though it was a joke. In S7e4 Bran told Arya he “saw” her at the Crossroads and thought she’d be heading to KL because “Cersei’s on her list of names.” And finally, in S8e4 she rode to KL and in S8e5 infiltrated the Red Keep, insisting Sandor: “I’m going to kill her!”I must be drawing a blank. 🤢

      Lots to agree with here.

      Sansa’s declaration was a bunch of crock as we rushed to a poorly conceived ending all kinds of nonsense was said by the characters. Often, characters behaved in all sorts of weird ways and said all kinds of ridiculous things.

      Of course, since Daenerys forgot about Euron’s fleet (the defining asset of Euron!), perhaps Sansa forgot how her family members died. Right???

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    212. Efi:
      Young Dragon,

      The only thing Sansa did to expedite things was to tell Cersei that they were leaving (if I’m not mistaken; this is definitely in the books). But that’s hardly “she had him arrested”.
      Ned forgot the #1 rule of conspiracies: don’t tell.
      Stupid fool told Cersei that he knew her children were Jamie’s. They were illegitimate, so they had no claim on the throne, neither did she as a queen with no offspring of the king.
      Also, Ned notified Stannis about the illegitimacy of Cersei’s children; he also conspired with Renly and LF. All that is high treason tenfold.
      High treason gets you arrested, not your kid.
      High treason gets you killed.
      The capital punishment is reserved for conspirators in all medieval regimes.
      Ned should have known better. He went into KL with the intention to investigate the death of Jon Arryn, taking his daughters with him. Unwittingly (?) he made them first his cover for being there (because of Sansa’s betrothal) and then he allowed that they become the regime’s hostages while he conspired against the Lannisters. What did he think, that if anything went wrong they wouldn’t use them against him? That they wouldn’t be used for making the North to comply? That they’d be treated as well as he treated his own hostage, Theon?
      Forgive me for saying this, but Ned is the personification of the “Northern fool”. He deserved what happened to him.
      His girls on the other hand, and his boys, didn’t deserve one bit what happened to them because of his stupidity. He was the adult. They were the minors.

      Lots to agree with here.

      And as for the “will changing” stunt, Ned betrayed his king’s specific death bed wishes. Regardless of the genetic’s, Joffery and Robert seem to have had a father-son bond to the best they could experience such a bond. Parental bonds do not only depend on genetics as any person that has adopted or fostered can attest.

      Also, generally from my experience, men who discover years later that the child they reared as their kid is not genetically their’s do not generally abandon/renounce them – the bonds remain and are usually reaffirmed based on love and shared lives. Divorce may follow regarding the wife, but Dad remains Dad regarding the children. People can be complicated.

      And if Ned strongly believed that blood/genetics was the determinant of the line of kingship, he should have sent for surviving Targs (Viserion) after the rebellion instead of putting Robert on the throne. I may be wrong but I think both he and Robert knew Aerys had living heirs.

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    213. I think all this analysis of Sansa’s statement to Baelish is a little over-wrought. 🙂 As the end of her statement just drips with sarcasm about his wise counsel, her entire statement can be interpreted as, “I already know what you’re telling me; please try harder.” As with Arya saying of the mass-murdering Dany, “I know a killer when I see one,” the literal statement is useless to the point of being nonsensical. There is some actual meaning behind the words.

      Had he won he’d be hailed as a kingmaker by putting Stannis on the throne. But he didn’t win so he was charged with high treason.

      Ned: It’s treason!
      Baelish: Only if we lose.

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    214. Young Dragon,

      If ned had listened to Renly, he wouldn’t have been imprisoned and survived. Maybe we should blame Ned for his death. Or maybe if grand maester Pycelle wouldn’t have given Ned the book, Ned wouldn’t have found out and confronted Cersei and he wouldn’t be imprisoned in the end. Or maybe Robert, if he never took Ned south, Ned would be alive.

      Sansa’s word were literally that Cersei killed them, she didn’t state: Cersei the women responsible, no literally the one that killed them. If that Sansa interpreted it as Cersei being responsible for the actions that lead to their death, She would have articulate it different. Especially with Robb and her mother Cersei had nothing to do with, she didn’t plan anything. She didn’t intent it either.
      Cersei have a lot to be blamed for, there is no need to add some things to the list like killing Ned, Robb & Cat that she wasn’t to be blamed for, especially the last 2.

      Ten Bears,

      This.

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    215. Mango: Lots to agree with here.

      Sansa’s declaration was a bunch of crock as we rushed to a poorly conceived ending all kinds of nonsense was said by the characters. Often, characters behaved in all sorts of weird ways and said all kinds of ridiculous things.

      Such blanket criticisms are completely meaningless without specific examples. It really says something that when you do provide specifics, such as Danerys “forgetting the Iron Fleet, they happen to be completely wrong, because that never happened.

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    216. Young Dragon,

      Benioff told it that Dany forgot the Iron fleet. So they wrote it that way, it’s their script. You can interpretet it otherwise, but Benioff and Weiss wrote is that Dany forgot the Iron Fleet and so it’s canon. They know the story better that they write than we. And they say she forgot, so she forgot. Or else they don’t know the story that they wrote, which is a lack of understanding of their story. So what is it, did she forgot the iron fleet or did D&D not understand what they were writing about?

      Fireandblood87,

      Than you should really educate yourself about how film-making works and how DVD/bluray extra’s are chosen.
      Extra’s are not chosen just for fun to contradict the main story. It’s there to expend and explain what is happening on screen. Adding extra’s that are not cannon is amateurish. And with a show like GoT that is on par (production wise) with LotR and other big names, they won’t add extra’s just for the fun of adding some stuff, they add them because they expend the show and is part of the show.
      If an extra is not canon, it will not be included to a DVD box, because then it would not belong to the official released box.

      A great example of this is with LOST. On the dvd-box they show us the epilogue of the show that was not shown on our screens when the show aired. They waited for the epilogue till the DVD-box. It was called “the new man in charge”. They could not show this on screen because it could only fit in at the end of the show, and it worked better and an extra instead of adding to the last episode (Which would have broken the episode if they added it at the end because it didn’t belong in the same episode, and airing an 8 minute episode a week later is also not done). This ending is canon confirmed by the writers of the show.

      As for the history and lore:
      1. It explains things that can’t be told on screen, but it’s canon so it needed to be added to the show in another way: a DVD extra.
      2. While you try to defend the writing of D&D by stating History and lore is not canon. At the same time you insult Bryan Cogman with it. He poured his heart and soul into them, and a lot of time writing the scripts of those segments. Getting actors/ directors (yes even drawn scenes need a director) and more together to make them happen. Stating that his hard work is not part of the show-canon is just a great insult to his work. (And feels the same as people stating season 8 never happened).

      edit: In film-making they call this “the word of god”, you can look it up. It explains why extra’s on a DVD shows are canon.

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    217. kevin1989,

      Ok. So, Cersei imprisons Ned, puts him on trial, and threatens the lives of his daughters in order to extract a false confession out of him, all of which directly results in him losing his head. Are you seriously comparing all of that with Pycelle handing Ned a book? I have to say, I don’t always agree with what you say, but I never considered you to be a hater. That’s why I don’t understand why your arguments are resembling those of haters more and more every day. I mean, you are seriously grasping at straws here, you have to see that, right?

      Whether she killed Ned directly, or only played a significant role, there’s nothing wrong with Sansa saying Cersei killed Ned, just like there was nothing wrong with Bran saying Joffrey killed him in season 2. Joffrey gave the order, but he didn’t swing the blade.

      In Westeros, people are judged for the crimes of their families. I’m not saying it’s right, but we’ve seen it several times over the course of the series.

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    218. kevin1989,

      No, that may have been D&D’s intent, but intent does not make it canon. There is nothing, and I mean nothing, in the show that indicates Danerys forgot about the Iron Fleet. As for that last bit, that is a juvenile and simplistic take. D&D’s intent didn’t translate on screen. So what? It happens. It’s not the first time the writer’s intent didn’t translate very well, it won’t be the last. Even George RR Martin’s intent didn’t translate very well. He intended for Darkstar to be a badass like the Hound, and yet he turned out to be lame. He intended for Doran to be a master player, but in reality, he turned out to be a moron. Are you saying Martin doesn’t understand what he is writing about?

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    219. Tensor the Mage, Who Sincerely Regrets Not Ever Having Been To The Quill & Tankard,

      Yes, I think you’re right. The lines are meant to show Sansa’s wit. She’s snarky and ironic to Baelish, as in “you don’t say! Did you figure all this by yourself?” kind of way.
      I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed Sansa being so fed up with LF’s bullsh*t, lol. I’d have enjoyed if she had been fed up with Tyrion’s bullsh*t in s8 too, but instead they turned out to be good friends. C’est la vie.
      They changed Cersei quite a lot from book to show; they ameliorated the Lannisters to become the heart of the story, and therefore Cersei’s guilt is not apparent to the audience and their crimes against the Starks weren’t addressed in the end, so this discussion seems normal nonetheless, doesn’t it?

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    220. The LightKing,

      Imo the specifics have been discussed enough. Some of them appear over and over.
      We all loved the show otherwise we wouldn’t be here still discussing it.
      And it is exactly this love and investment over the years that gives us the right to exert some criticism still.
      Of course you can love sth/someone uncritically; but you can also love sth/someone critically.
      That doesn’t make any of us haters.

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    221. Young Dragon,

      Perhaps we can put it to rest now.
      The entire “she forgot” thing simply translates a longer story: she was anxious to leave WF and win the IT, so she didn’t take into account her men and her dragons being injured, while the others didn’t put some sense into their queen because of her own urgency. They just didn’t want to contradict her (as they should).
      It was a mistake to leave WF so early, hence “she forgot”. She did forget for specific reasons. Even if she hadn’t, with the state of her dragons she wouldn’t be in a position to do a reconnaissance flight to see if there were any amboushes laid out for her. The dragons wouldn’t even fly straight.

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    222. Efi,

      Hate is no criticism!
      Maybe the one or the other should look up how a right argument is structured but just to say that this is shit, this is ridiculous, this makes no sense without any explanation is just hating!

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    223. The LightKing,

      Mango has expressed criticism in very, very logical terms over and over since season 8 aired.
      As for the word that bothered you, yes, admittedly it is a characterization but derives from the estimates of Mango that follow in the same sentence. And these estimates are a product of long expressed criticism in older posts.

      Also, I think people are bored talking about the same stuff over and over; therefore it is easier to throw characterizations, it happens. So lighten up, it’s not that bad. We’re here discussing about our -still- favorite show even though in terms that you do not like. We’re entitled to it just as you’re entitled to your own opinion.

      But unlike Sansa and Daenerys and Jon, Mango and I are real persons.
      And even though we are adult enough to not take your “hater” accusation seriously, you might want to reconsider throwing characterizations at real people.

      And hater of what exactly? Of a fictional story made up either by Martin or D&D ?

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    224. Young Dragon,

      I was going to react to you, until you call me a hater. There stops the debate for me, I never became personal to you or called you’re names. And I’m far from being a hater, I love the show and books, they are the things I talked about the most this last 10 years. We can disagree about certain things of the show, but there is no need for name-calling. I never did.
      But it seems everyone who doesn’t agree with you is a hater. (I never called you a hater of the books even when you dislike almost everything post book 3 because I respect your opinion)

      Efi,

      This. But it’s a easy way to win an debate without arguments I think. Putting labels on and put them into a “box”.

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    225. The LightKing,

      Please stop with this Ad Hominem.

      Mango, Efi and others are more objective about the show than some on this site about the books. But somehow we are not resorted to call those haters of the books and we respect their opinion.

      This is all I say about it, and for me like many here are a bit tired of the same old debate about “the show is brilliant” vs “the show have some mistakes”. I think well said what we said about the show, we feel how we feel. And personally I’m up for some new debates about the upcoming prequel(s) and winds of winter if we are in luck.

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    226. kevin1989,

      Eh, I think that everything has been overanalyzed at this point, so in the end using characterization instead of reasoning sums up logical thinking, feelings and mood at that particular moment.
      We were ok in this niche until some of the posters started to protest about the criticism by others such as you, me, Mango, by throwing names at us. Defending the show is one thing; calling others names and refusing to recognize that everyone has a right to express their own opinion is another.
      Whether I am called a hater or not, whether I say (again) what I enjoyed in the show and what I didn’t, it won’t change my opinion about how the show quickly went down the hill script-wise and story-wise. My attempt to rewatch it stopped at ep. 3 (which I thoroughly enjoyed, but it won’t make any difference to those who call me a hater).

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    227. kevin1989,

      Well, we obviously understand objectivity differently and I don’t understand why you’re interfering unless you feel addressed. I never called you hater, but some user here are Hater and they can’t stop. They keep this discussion rolling!

        Quote  Reply

    228. Efi,

      Agree, I’m ready for the prequels I think that will give us nicer debates. I hope we get filming news soon 😀

      The LightKing,

      I know you didn’t. Young Dragon did to me. And personal attacks are forbidden here. Still you did it to Mango. That’s all I’m going to say on it.

        Quote  Reply

    229. kevin1989,

      You might want to read the comments more thoroughly. I never called you a hater. In fact, I said I never considered you to be a hater. I still don’t. All I said were your comments were beginning to resemble those of haters. Refusing to accept that season 8 was fast paced, not rushed, even when I provided the textbook definition of pacing, stating things are show canon despite them never actually occurring in the show, and now trying to compare the heinous crimes Cersei committed against Ned in season 1 that directly led to his death with Pycelle handing him a book. It seems that you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. I’m not saying this because I wish to offend you. I’m saying this because you used to be one of my favorite posters, and am now disappointed that this is the path you’re choosing to go down. And you’re wrong about Mango. He is the exact definition of a hater. All he does is come onto this site and spews hate without contributing anything to the conversation. It’s telling that the few times he does go into specifics, like Danerys “forgetting” about the Iron Fleet, he is 100% inaccurate.

      I know you love the show, but if I was an outside observer seeing your comments for the first time, I would never be able to guess it.

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    230. Farimer123,

      Hey fam. Surprised to see the site is still going strong. I have not thought about the show in a long time but it popped in my head just now. I find it amusing that all the cheerleaders are still going strong, lecturing the mostly now silent detractors, and still thanking ” Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss” lol. Myself, I don’t care if every single member of the cast and TV critics on the net thinks season 8 was the most awesome thing ever I just don’t, never will. But that’s okay. I enjoyed 7 seasons of a cool show I can live with that. What I can’t do is recommend it to anyone that might ask if they should start watching. Also, I don’t believe the actual actors can ever view it through the same lens viewers can. Too close to the source to be objective sorta thing. Also I respect Gillan’s sharing his thoughts on the petition but I don’t agree and found it funny and harmless. Also they shouldn’t put down the fanbase for being so invested to do such a thing as it’s because of that passion and investment that caused your show and your pocketbooks to flourish.

        Quote  Reply

    231. Ygritte,

      How can someone be so hateful?
      I envy all the people who haven’t seen the show yet and can experience it far from all that idiotic hate and ridiculous backlash.

        Quote  Reply

    232. Ygritte,

      “But that’s okay. I enjoyed 7 seasons of a cool show I can live with that. What I can’t do is recommend it to anyone that might ask if they should start watching.”

      I can recommend they watch up until S7e4 – and that’s only because I’m an Arya fanboy and watching her arrive back in WF and spar with Brienne were highlights for me.

      Otherwise, I’d recommend stopping at the end of S6, when almost all of the storylines left on a high note. (“He’s the heir to the Iron Throne”; “The King in the North! The King in the North”; Yay! Queen Cersei! “Long May she reign!”; “Hey! Here comes the Dragon Queen with HotQ Tyrion and her huge f*cking armada!”; “Buh-bye Lancel; you too Tommen”; the Hound’s gonna help a lot more than he’s harmed!; “My name is Arya Stark. I want you to know that. The last thing you’re ever going to see is a Stark smiling down at you as you die.”)

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    233. Efi,

      Thanks for that! But for $210 and $330, I’m not so sure a replica of Arya’s VS dagger is in my price range – unless a full-sized disintegrating Night King figurine comes with it. Or a Littlefinger doll with spurting carotid artery and detachable head.

      If I have extra money to play with, I’ll probably buy more GoT Royal Mail stamps.

        Quote  Reply

    234. Efi,

      “Btw, have you checked these out? I thought you might be interested (I picked them up from Martin’s Not a Blog).”

      P.S. If the VS dagger is being advertised as “Arya’s Blade” via a link from GRRM’s blog… I wonder if that means Arya will get that dagger in the books????

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    235. Ten Bears: P.S. If the VS dagger is being advertised as “Arya’s Blade” via a link from GRRM’s blog… I wonder if that means Arya will get that dagger in the books????

      I think it’s very possible but since there’s no Night King in the book, I think it’d need to serve a different significance for Arya 🙂

      It also occurred to me, if you want to read the books but only Arya’s chapters/references to Arya, you can get the digital versions and in addition to only reading Arya’s chapters, you can do searches for the various names Arya has. It’s no boiled leather AFFC/ADWD merger but it’s a way to experience the Arya-only content? 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    236. Ten Bears: P.S. If the VS dagger is being advertised as “Arya’s Blade” via a link from GRRM’s blog… I wonder if that means Arya will get that dagger in the books????

      …. Or, on second thought, I’m wondering if that’s simply just what HBO named this version of the Catspaw dagger? (I think it’s possible she may get this dagger somehow in the books but I think it’s hard to be certain either way)

      It looks like there are two different versions of the same dagger under different names as they include this same dagger under its Catspaw name.

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    237. Ygritte,

      Ten Bears,

      Otherwise, I’d recommend stopping at the end of S6, when almost all of the storylines left on a high note.

      You can also stop reading The Great Gatsby in the middle, when he’s showing Daisy around his residence; you just haven’t experienced the entire work of art. If that works for you, great, but you shouldn’t call yourself a ‘fan’ of the work if you do.

      If the artist stays true to his vision, then the audience should respect that, by accepting the work in full. In the case of “A Song of Ice and Fire,” Martin clearly envisioned Dany as the final villain all along. That’s his vision, and he ensured the producers of the television adaptation stayed true to it. That’s all an artist can do.

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    238. Ten Bears,

      I feel for you. Prices are always high with such replicas because they’re good replicas with good materials and lots of hand-crafted details. I always want to buy museum jewelry because they’re exact replicas of real jewelry worn by queens. After spending part of my youth in Paris, being too poor to buy something Mary Antoinette wore (lol; I’ll be in Paris in May, perhaps I can buy sth then), I managed to buy in Vienna a pair of earrings modelled on the stars worn by empress Elizabeth of Austria in her hair. It’s not the same thing, because a brooch of the original size would cost double as much (about 120eu), even if it’s just silver and Swarofski crystals instead of gold and diamonds.
      The daggers actually have 24 carats gold plate on them and the red crystal in the middle should be expensive.
      But if you know any artist doing stuff like that (e.g. jewelry), you could order one for yourself just by showing a picture. These are expensive because they’re authorized by HBO. The stamps are a good idea too; they’re very beautiful.

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    239. Ten Bears,

      They’re HBO authorized, which means that they come from GoT only. However, the knife re-emerging in the show was such a good detail that could only come from Martin. LF probably has it, like the show, and I think it has a role to play in the books because it’s a Targaryen knife. We’ll see (hopefully).
      [now that I think about it, LF wouldn’t part with it that easily; perhaps Sansa will take it with her when she escapes from the Vale and thus the knife will make it back to the Starks].

        Quote  Reply

    240. Efi: After spending part of my youth in Paris, being too poor to buy something Mary Antoinette wore (lol; I’ll be in Paris in May, perhaps I can buy sth then), I managed to buy in Vienna a pair of earrings modelled on the stars worn by empress Elizabeth of Austria in her hair. It’s not the same thing, because a brooch of the original size would cost double as much (about 120eu), even if it’s just silver and Swarofski crystals instead of gold and diamonds.

      I know this struggle well! 😆(Those must be beautiful earrings btw)

      Are you talking about Empress Sissi?? 🙂 I once designed a costume based on this dress and I have two friends who are costume designers in the Netherlands and they recreated at least two of her dresses 🙂 (this one and her coronation one!) I think they’re currently starting a third!

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    241. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      ”You can also stop reading The Great Gatsby in the middle, when he’s showing Daisy around his residence; you just haven’t experienced the entire work of art. If that works for you, great, but you shouldn’t call yourself a ‘fan’ of the work if you do.“

      1. Thanks for the tip! I have not read “The Great Gatsby” yet, but if I ever do I’ll be sure to stop reading when Gatsby is showing Daisy around his residence.

      2. I called myself a fan of “Dexter” – until it imploded in its final seasons. I was an enthusiastic fan of “The Blacklist” – until it started sucking midway through its second season. Being a “fan” isn’t an all-or-nothing proposition, at least not for me.

      3. I consider myself a fan of Game of Thrones even if I wasn’t thrilled with every aspect of “the entire work of art.”

      4. For example:
      ✅ Sandor
      ✅ Arya
      ❌ Euron
      ❌ R+L = J secret = 0; Bran powers = 0
      ❌ S8 Neutered Jon & Lobotomized Tyrion
      ✅ S4
      ❌ Silly Wight Hunt Plan & Bran Bait Plan
      ❌Ridiculous S7 LF vs Arya vs Sansa WF “plot”
      ✅ Did I mention Sandor? 🐓🐓
      ✅ S2 Tyrion
      ✅ Ygritte ♥️ Jon
      ✅ Hardhome; The Door
      ✅ Syrio Forel
      ✅ Jaqen “A Man Can Go Kill Himself” H’ghar
      ✅ Kinvara; Volantis street priestess
      ✅ Jorah; Jorah’s voice
      ✅ Tywin
      ❌ Ramsay torture porn
      ❌ High Sparrow
      ✅ Cersei vs. Septa Unella

      I could go on. The point is, I loved so much of the show… just not all of it.

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    242. Ten Bears: 1. Thanks for the tip! I have not read “The Great Gatsby” yet, but if I ever do I’ll be sure to stop reading when Gatsby is showing Daisy around his residence.

      There’s a terrific South Park episode from a number of years ago where they made fun of society’s obsession and over-diagnosis of ADD in children.

      The way they tested to see if a child has ADD or not, they would have someone read the Great Gatsby aloud to all the children and if any of the children became bored or tired with the book then that was the proof that the children had ADD.

      Needless to say, it’s considered a classic today, and it’s a good book, but I found it to be rather boring for the most part when I had to read it. The characters are thoroughly unlikable as well, but I think that was Fitzgerald’s point. It’s funny how many people miss the point of the book. Most people glamorize it, but that wasn’t the intention. It’s kind of like how the movie Fight Club initiated all kinds of actual Fight Clubs , which completely missed the point of the movie. Or like how the “greed is good” speech in Wall Street was misconstrued.

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    243. Adrianacandle,

      Yes, that’s exactly her. I knew you’d have something to say about that! 😉
      They have the original size replicas of the stars in the Schatzkammer Museum. Unlike other jewelry and artefacts that are original (such as her mother in-law’s jewelry and the various crowns of the German monarchy dating from the 15th century onwards) these are only copies, but even so they’re extremely impressive. They are brooches in reality that could be attached anywhere, including her hair, but she often wore them on her sash and on her dress (e.g. on the sleeves).

      I’d attach a picture of Romy Scneider as Sissy, but the stars she’s wearing in the movie are not exact copies. The original has many rays, making it’s center massive, filled with diamonds. See what an empire can do? I think I had never understood what an empire was before I visited Paris and Vienna.
      But it’s kind of touching on a personal level because they have preserved many of her personal items, even the iron she used to curl her hair with (she was burning hair all the time it would seem), even underwear (she was incredibly tiny and short), even the weapon she was murdered with.

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    244. Efi,

      It’s not just the price. I noticed from the product description that the replica dagger is stainless steel, and includes the warning:
       
      This item is not a toy, please keep out of the reach of children. This replica is intended solely for display purposes as a collector’s item.“

      If my young niece Hannah comes to visit, she would probably take the dagger out of its display case. I’d have to be vigilant…

      Me: “This isn’t a toy. Little lady shouldn’t be playing with knives.”

      Hannah: “I wasn’t playing. And I don’t want to be a lady.”

      😁

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    245. Mr Derp,

      The way they tested to see if a child has ADD or not, they would have someone read the Great Gatsby aloud to all the children and if any of the children became bored or tired with the book then that was the proof that the children had ADD.

      Needless to say, it’s considered a classic today, and it’s a good book, but I found it to be rather boring for the most part when I had to read it.

      It seemed like every school year “Madame Bovary” was assigned reading. I could never make it through it. I tried. Repeatedly.

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    246. Adrianacandle:

      It also occurred to me, if you want to read the books but only Arya’s chapters/references to Arya, you can get the digital versions and in addition to only reading Arya’s chapters, you can do searches for the various names Arya has. It’s no boiled leather AFFC/ADWD merger but it’s a way to experience the Arya-only content? 🙂

      Good idea! Probably more efficient and less expensive than the “Boiled ASNAWP” extraction I was considering.

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    247. Efi,

      Yes, I can only imagine how elaborate and impressive those replicas are 😭And I try to wear everything in my hair! I didn’t know you could wear brooches in hair! (But maybe on only certain hairstyles, like ones that involve much styled hair between brooch and scalp, rather than on loose hair….??)

      I once went to Paris a few years ago! It was beautiful! I wish I spent my time better while I was there. We spent the whole of one of our only days waiting in line for the Eiffel Tower and one of our other days… inside with Netflix and chips due to sheer laziness and headaches ;; We’re not exactly itinerary-driven — we don’t feel enough urgency while traveling together X_X

      On our last day, J confused what train station we were supposed to go to and we thought it was only a 10 min walk. It turned out to be a 30 min RUN and of course, I packed my entire house in a 23kg suitcase to bring with me everywhere I go. While we were running for the train, the handle of my suitcase broke, I collapsed on the street in sobs, despairing, “We’ll never make it!” because we could never afford another train ticket — while J yanked a dangling strap on my 23kg suitcase, pulled it up, and said, “YES WE WILL,” and started running with my overpacked suitcase dragging behind her while I ran after her… crying… throughout the streets of Paris…

      We did make it! At the very last second! And we got sandwiches before we realized our mistake and those were the best sandwiches ever 🙂

      Those are MY memories of Paris ;D

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    248. Adrianacandle: We spent the whole of one of our only days waiting in line for the Eifel Tower

      Those lines, as well as the Louvre, are notorious for being horrible. If you have a chance to make it out to Paris again, I would highly recommend booking a reservation online. I would also recommend getting there either really early or late in the day right before they close. Much less people that way. It’s impossible to avoid waiting, but you could significantly cut down on the waiting time that way.

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    249. Mr Derp: Those lines, as well as the Louvre, are notorious for being horrible. If you have a chance to make it out to Paris again, I would highly recommend booking a reservation online. I would also recommend getting there either really early or late in the day right before they close. Much less people that way. It’s impossible to avoid waiting, but you could significantly cut down on the waiting time that way.

      Thanks for this idea! That’s definitely what I’ll do next time! 🙂 It’s true, waits can’t be avoided entirely but maybe with better planning, like booking online, it’s not a 6-7 hr wait X_X

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    250. Adrianacandle,

      You’d be surprised how often famous buildings/museums are pretty empty near the end of the day. Most of the tourists are usually gone by then to catch their cruise ship or whatever before it leaves. A lot of people get nervous about missing their ships too, so they leave earlier then they need to.

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    251. Mr Derp,

      Those are good tips, thank-you! And the end of the day is the best time of day, no need to get up at the crack of dawn (before 10 am) 😉 I will keep this in mind when visiting other cities and planning to see museums/buildings!

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    252. Ten Bears,

      Oh i’d still recommend it, if someone started watching it now, they could binge it in weeks and have a great time. We wouldn’t be setting them up for a 9 year investment. Personally, I have no desire to watch it again, I don’t hate it or love it, I feel apathetic towards it now. I don’t care enough to debate the quality of it anymore, but I can’t deny that I enjoyed discussing it and theorising along the way. Discussing it after season 8 helped me to accept certain choices and led me to my current state of ‘meh’. Besides Season 8 is far better than 7, if they make it that far, they should finish it.

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    253. Ten Bears:

      R+L = J secret = 0

      Both Jon’s parentage, and the reveal of it to Dany, were two of the most important elements in the entire story. The end-game story after the defeat of the Ice menace led directly to the Fire menace, and that sequence of events began with Jon’s reveal to Dany.

      Jon’s parentage was one of the corner-stones of the entire story; it kept Jon & Dany from flying off into the sunset on their dragons, and instead set up Jon Snow’s final conflict, which was always going to be love vs. duty, as that is the conflict which described his entire life.

      The reveal of it to Dany was the start of her unraveling. She had based her entire world-view and self-image upon her being The Last Targ’, Rightful Heir to the Throne. When it turned out not to be true, when she was shown to be just another pretender, she despotically attempted to silence Jon. This began the series of events which saw her torch King’s Landing and call it liberation.

      Saying R+L = J meant nothing shows a complete misunderstanding of the entire story.

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    254. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      For all the screentime and setup for the reveal of the secret of Jon’s parentage, it just amounted to one of many Dany bugging out factors.

      I would have been just as interested in the reveal of Hot Pie’s parents.

      S3:
      Hot Pie: “My brother weren’t no king.”
      Bran: “Yes. Yes he was.”

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    255. Adrianacandle,

      Nowadays you can’t go anywhere near any of those places without a ticket in hand. Pre-booking had just started when I was there (I stayed six months, so I know Paris fairly well by now and I’ve revisited often for various reasons). It wasn’t just buying a ticket on line, which you can now do everywhere; they had appointment visits, like, be there at that time or you’ve missed it. But I’ve seen some of the greatest expos ever, like Botticelli, Gaughin, Van Gogh and Praxitelles. So if you visit again any of Paris, London, Rome, Athens, Madrid, Vienna, make sure to buy tickets in advance; they’d save you lots of time and trouble, but the experience for you, since you’ve studied art (if I remember correctly) will be unique.
      But curiously enough I never had a problem with museums, I never waited much for any of them. Even in Rome, the line for entering in St. Peter’s cathedral was 2-3 hours long. I went to the Vatican first since I had pre-bought ticket, and when I came out (after a heavy shot of Rafael and Caravaggio), heavy rain had sent all those visitors away. I went in and left my heart in front of Michelangelo’s Pieta.
      But I know the stress with the gigantic suitcases! You remind me of myself in Germany, lol. I was even younger then. But the thing with timelines is problematic. You ask, they tell you don’t worry, it’s only 10′ away. Then it turns out it’s 30′ running. They tell you it’s 30′, you have to count at least 45′. When I learned that lesson, I started taking a taxi.

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    256. Ten Bears,

      Tyrion: What if they ruled together?
      Varys: She doesn’t like to share power and she was sad at that party, clearly unstable. She’d bend him to her will like the Dark Lord Sauron.
      Tyrion: Oh ok then, it was just a thought.

      Steady on lads, let’s not dismiss the notion so quickly. Team Targ sucked, and that’s why the reveal fell flat for me. Thier reactions to it just feel right. Specifically Varys’ quick turn.

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    257. Jenny:
      Ten Bears,

      Tyrion:What if they ruled together?
      Varys:She doesn’t like to share power and she was sad at that party, clearly unstable.She’d bend him to her will like the Dark Lord Sauron.
      Tyrion:Oh ok then, it was just a thought.

      Steady on lads, let’s not dismiss the notion so quickly. Team Targ sucked, and that’s why the reveal fell flat for me. Thier reactions to it just feel right. Specifically Varys’ quick turn.

      That should have been,

      Their reactions to it just *didn’t* feel right.

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    258. Jenny,

      I know what you mean. Season 6 left off with Dany having a new priority when she gets to KL. Find a marriage alliance that will help strengthen her claim.

      However, once they get to KL, suddenly Dany is not marriage material according to her own advisors, she will squash her husband like a bug whomever it is, forget about it, etc…

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    259. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      It meant nothing to Jon; it meant nothing to the Starks; it meant nothing to Westeros.
      As per the show, it only meant something to Dany.
      That was a monumental let-down.
      That’s what we mean when we say that the reveal amounted to nothing. That’s our reading.
      The show tried to convince us that everything is about Dany. I don’t think it is. The huge potential of this story was minimally explored only with regard to Dany and no one else.
      Daenerys and her story sucked in the bigger part of the story like a black hole. From the moment she set foot in Westeros, Jon vanished; Tyrion vanished; Cersei vanished; Arya vanished; Sansa vanished; Bran vanished. They all existed to frame Daenerys and drive her to madness.
      In your estimate Daenerys had built her entire self-perception on being the last Targaryen. Then why does this not come into consideration as she burns KL? What was she after by burning KL? How does Jon come into the equasion here, since he told her over and over that he “didn’t want it”, and since he did everything she wanted?

      If you believe that this is the entire story, then good for you. But I see a huge lacuna here and I don’t think that what we saw on screen is even half of it.

      You say that the title of the saga prejudices the ending, which is true of course (I am not contesting the ending btw, just to make this clear, I don’t have any illusions that Jon would ever run away with Daenerys). Two evils in the realm, Ice and Fire. But the song of Ice and Fire is Jon’s, and it’s already in the books (Aegon; his is the song of ice and fire).
      With all due respect to all those who really loved season 8, there was no Jon in it, anywhere. If there was a song, it was Dany’s, with a sad ending.
      The producers simply gave to the audience what they wanted: Dany and dragons. As I’ve said, before, it was their choice, their (TV) story and their right to do what they wanted with the story they had. It is liberating to know (they’ve said this themselves), but it won’t make any of us see the show differently (since we weren’t in for Dany and dragons in the first place).
      (sigh)

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    260. Mr Derp,

      Plenty of people liked it, and that’s fine. But Varys was an issue for me, he was just doing things to push the plot along. He was worried about her state of mind before Rhaegar died. Slightly premature. As I said many times, I have no issue with Dany being the ‘villian’, I predicted it years ago. Her final descent just didn’t work for me. I suppose that’s an example of the infamous ‘I liked the ending, just not how we got there’.

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    261. Jenny,

      I pretty much feel the same way. I’ve made my peace with the ending, even if I didn’t really care much for it. I felt absolutely nothing when Jon killed Dany. I was an emotional mess when Jon held Ygritte in his dying arms though. Obviously Ygritte and Jon’s relationship resonated more with me than Jon and Dany’s. It is what it is.

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    262. Ten Bears:

      For all the screentime and setup for the reveal of the secret of Jon’s parentage, it just amounted to one of many Dany bugging out factors.

      Can we please agree it was the *primary* such factor, both in time-line and importance?

      “Dany bugging out” was the third and final plot-twist which Martin told Benioff & Weiss when he couldn’t finish the books on time. He made sure they would include it.

      Also, how much screen time was spent on R + L = J? Maybe half an hour out of a 73-hour story? That’s not a lot of time for one of the most important elements in the entire story.

      Mr. Derp:

      However, once they get to KL, suddenly Dany is not marriage material according to her own advisors, she will squash her husband like a bug whomever it is…

      That conversation was clearly about the possibility of Dany marrying Jon, and no one else.

      Also, by the time Dany arrives on Westeros, many potential suitors have been eliminated. Loras Tyrell would have been the most obvious candidate for a political marriage, but even Ramsay Bolton would have sufficed. Of the remainder, Robin Arryn would have been a good political match, along with the new Prince of Dorne. But by that time, Dany had become a megalomaniacal dictator who probably would not have bothered to marry at all.

      Efi:

      It meant nothing to Jon;

      It meant he could no longer return her affections. That rejection helped push her toward tyranny.

      … it meant nothing to the Starks …

      Sansa immediately recognized she could use Jon’s better claim to keep Dany off the Iron Throne, and she moved swiftly to do exactly that. And while Arya didn’t care for her own sake, she knew Dany would have to get rid of Jon — and Arya was fiercely protective of her “brother”.

      For both Stark daughters, R + L = J meant more to them than an oath sworn before family in Winterfell’s Godswood. That’s a lot closer to “everything” than to “nothing.”

      Tyron “vanished” by being responsible for the death of Varys? Jon “vanished” by riding a dragon, dismounting the Night’s King, and chasing him through Winterfell? Arya “vanished” by killing the Night’s King?!?

      What would these characters, in your estimation, have needed to do to make themselves felt more forcefully near the end of the story? I’m very serious in asking.

      Finally, Dany’s vision of Rhaegar (?) telling Lyanna (?) about her child being “… the Prince Who Was Promised, … his is the Song of Ice and Fire,” was intentionally not included in the show. It would have been too obvious a “tell,” that Jon would eliminate the threats of Ice and Fire.

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    263. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      “It meant he could no longer return her affections. That rejection helped push her toward tyranny.”

      Exactly. Dany again. The significance of JON’s true identity is narrowed down to Dany again. You’ve said it.

      “Sansa immediately recognized she could use Jon’s better claim to keep Dany off the Iron Throne, and she moved swiftly to do exactly that. And while Arya didn’t care for her own sake, she knew Dany would have to get rid of Jon — and Arya was fiercely protective of her “brother”. ”

      Sigh, Dany again. Why would Sansa want to keep Dany away from the IT? What’s it to her? Would Sansa care about what a stranger does?
      Arya protectice of Jon? When? She didn’t do anything to protect him. She didn’t kill Cersei; she didn’t kill Dany. She didn’t set him free from his jail. We didn’t even see them fight side by side. She defended his choice in front of Sansa, but “fiercely protective”? Hardly.
      The oath was importat only for Sansa to break it. If Jon didn’t want the throne, why did she tell? Out of spite for Dany? Is that a satisfying explanation?

      “Tyron “vanished” by being responsible for the death of Varys? Jon “vanished” by riding a dragon, dismounting the Night’s King, and chasing him through Winterfell? Arya “vanished” by killing the Night’s King?!?”

      Tyrion vanished by being turned from an intelligent commander and plotter to gallactically stupid by not anticipating a) Euron’s attack on Yara b) Jamie’s maneuvering c) Euron’s counter attack at Casterly Rock d) Cersei’s backing up from the truce e) Euron’s ambush at DS, and top of the top, f) Daenerys’ burning of KL. Tyrion was reduced to “the good guy” who loved his sister and his queen at the same time and was turned to the showrunners’ spokesman each time they wanted to turn the audience’s attention away from Dany’s threats to burn KL, or wanted to explain what they did, as in 8.6 in that stupid speech. Never mind how inconsistent his own story was in season 8, he’s still the producers’ favorite boy.
      Jon: a great character development, as his two lines betray, “I don’t want it”, “you’re my queen”.
      Arya. Killed the NK, hurra! What else? Became an explorer in the very last scene?

      Dany’s vision is of Rhaegar to Elia. Martin’s intent was to show how subjective his characters are in what they believe (Watsonian and Doylist), and to mislead the readers for not revealing Jon’s parentage too soon (Doylist), because Rhaegar was mistaken in that one. His first born son was killed anyway. I doubt that the vision wasn’t included for not telling. It could be that, but consider how restricting it would have been if they meant to make a story about Dany and dragons.

      “I’m very serious in asking.”

      Sorry, I won’t say. I’ve already written too much on this site about it and I don’t want to go through that again. There’s much that could have been done to make the exact same story more fulfilling for much of the audience. A line here, a scene there. They wouldn’t have to change the ending or anything like that; keep it the same, but just round it up for all the characters.

      I think (of course I might be mistaken) that D&D hadn’t really realized where the story was going before Martin told them. Therefore the “three shocking moments” were really shocking for them, especially the third one. This is betrayed more or less by how they changed the characters book to show. It’s not only adaptation for TV, it’s qualitative changes, like, for example, Jon being ambitious in the books, or Tyrion being ambitious too (which was shown at first but then it was dropped), or Arya struggling to be somebody and then only being granted a chance to be “no one” or Jamie feeling bound by his oaths to Catelyn and Rhaegar (which perhaps would have given him something to do in s8 apart from deflowering Brienne). As for Daenerys, by leaving out of the show about 80% of what she was dealing with in Meereen only made her look better and concealed her turn.
      In sum, my impression is that they toned down the “villains”, Daenerys, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion, because they centered the story on them, and completely disregarded the Starks, especially after season 6. But the problem with this is that the story started with the Starks, so the build up to the end for them came out of the blue just like it did for Daenerys (at least for her fans). The story of season 8 in particular falls short on many, many levels.

      And, you’ve written this to TB:
      “That’s not a lot of time for one of the most important elements in the entire story.”

      The entire book (five volumes of it, four more to come in two books) is built around Jon’s parentage. There’s a zillion characters involved in it, and when the reveal will happen it will have tsounami effect all over Westeros.
      So where is it in season 8?

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    264. Efi

      ”Arya protectice of Jon? When? She didn’t do anything to protect him. She didn’t kill Cersei; she didn’t kill Dany. She didn’t set him free from his jail. We didn’t even see them fight side by side. ”

      F*ck. That’s right. After the pre-S8 teaser of Jon and Arya drawing their swords together in the crypts, I was hyped for seeing them fight together. Nope. 😡

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    265. Efi,

      Yes, buying tickets in advance helps! Thanks for the tips too!

      Other than buying train tickets, Jo and I didn’t really plan our activities ahead because we didn’t have a set schedule (we went into this with the intention that we would see what we’d see so we didn’t feel rushed and could enjoy Paris without feeling extra stressed). I was curious about the Louvre but I cautioned against going unless I had at least week to spend there. My less noble reason for avoiding the Louvre was because, with having spent so many years studying art and being in the midst of my studies, I was kind of burned out by art at the time T___T So I definitely wasted an opportunity there :/

      But I know the stress with the gigantic suitcases! You remind me of myself in Germany, lol. I was even younger then. But the thing with timelines is problematic. You ask, they tell you don’t worry, it’s only 10′ away. Then it turns out it’s 30′ running. They tell you it’s 30′, you have to count at least 45′. When I learned that lesson, I started taking a taxi.

      Oh yeah, time estimates can be totally problematic! I think the real problem here was Jo and I thought we were going to the nearby train station but that was the wrong train station we were supposed to go to. The actual train station we were meant to go to was much farther away and we didn’t plan for getting there XD;;;

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