The Making of Dorne’s weapons in Game of Thrones Season 5

Obara

The newest behind-the-scenes video from Game of Thrones gives a special look at the creation of Dorne’s unique weaponry, with commentary from GoT weapons master Tommy Dunne.

A few shots from the video:

Areo Hotah

Nymeria

Tyene

Sue the Fury: Incredible weapons work, as always. The longaxe in particular is really beautiful. I can’t wait to see it in action!

208 responses

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    1. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman and my eyes don’t immediately fixate on breasts, but I didn’t even notice the nipples this time around because Keisha look so freakin badass.

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    2. I’m too distracted by the SS’s costumes to care how dangerous they are. My eyes do wander…and I’m dead. Restart game and try again.

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    3. Yeah, they looked worse in those set pictures, it’s only the lighting that make them look like nipples.
      Anyway, I almost forgot about these videos. It’s strange how it’s already March 2nd and this is the first Artisan video we get (though you could count A Day in The Life as one I guess).

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    4. wish they had made Tyene more different from other sand snakes even if they weren’t going to keep her book persona

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    5. Sue the Fury,

      Agreed the axe is gorgeous! Just a bit worried who is he swinging it at in the clip?

      I hope it’s an anonymous guard and not Jaime, if Jaime is taking some of Arys’s storyline it better not be that bit!!

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    6. I imagined Aero’s axe to be very different, more like a giant double-edged axe (I don’t recall the exact description), but considering we got Styr’s giant axe in S4 (which I really enjoyed!), I think this is fitting enough. It fits the Dorne style more, a normal axe would just feel out of place. It’s more of a glaive than a longaxe, but whatevs, it’s beautiful.

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    7. Hotah’s weapon is amazing! I wonder how heavy it feels wielding it. Very excited for the new season, starting to feel like it’s the home stretch now. We really are overdue for another trailer! Come on HBO, release it this week so I can have something to hold me over for the next week or so.

      I think that is Jamie with Hotah. If you look closely, he’s wearing a sword sheath which looks alot like Jamie’s, plus his boots. I was trying to see if he had the golden arm attachment on his right hand, but that could just be his wrist guard.

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    8. Dorne has this Lawrence of Arabia meets Raiders of the Lost Ark vibe. I like it.

      The details on the weapons are amazing. Tommy Dunne is a terrific designer.

      I’m most intrigued by Tyene.

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    9. Hodor’s Bastard: I’m too distracted by the SS’s costumes to care how dangerous they are. My eyes do wander…and I’m dead. Restart game and try again.

      The sad and silly truth is that it would probably work that way in real life! Particularly against Westerosian men, this could serve as a momentary distraction: and that is (as you note) death.

      Premislaus: Nipples on a breastplate

      Yeah, but note that it’s men who say that. If women were in charge, then they would say something along the lines as “useless as extra space in the groin area.” 😀

      Jaime’s girl

      I doubt that

      the plot line with Arys is even going to be here. We probably will see Trystane taking Arianne’s role of playing Queenmaker: but that means that he will take the plot role of Arys, also.

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    10. Stop being gross, fellas. No one is impressed by your humor.

      In regard to the Sand Snakes, Obara and Nym are really good interpretations for me (strength and seductiveness, respectively). Worried about Tyene, though: Her mother was a septa, and she’s supposed to be very unassuming, modest, and does not wield any obvious weapons except for her knowledge of poisons. Something I really, really adored in the books is that each of the Sand Snakes is so different from the next and heavily reflects their mother’s characteristics in a way. Each of them stand out from each other, but here the Sand Snakes all appear cut from the same cloth. Even with the provided actresses they could have infused more diversity between them. Hopefully they all can emphasize their differences in personality if not visually.

      Also, I am hoping they include Sarella eventually. She is my favorite even though we technically haven’t met her yet because

      the theories suggest she’s actually in disguise as Alleras, the Dornish boy at Oldtown studying to become a Maester. Because as a woman working her way up in academia, I TOTALLY DIG the idea of there being a female maester somewhere

      .

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    11. God, these women look bad-ass.

      Can’t wait!

      (Even though I remember nothing about the sand snakes from the books.)

      I read them a long time ago. I’m re-reading the series now but am only on the first book. I hope to get all the way to Dance by the time the show starts. But I think that is quite optimistic!

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    12. Still nitpicking Tyene isnt a blue eyed blonde innocent looking septa daughter… it made her so much more unique and not simply one of three (elders) badass similar sisters.

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    13. My initial reaction to that picture before the jump was “wow, do want” and that was even before I noticed the breastplate nipples haha.

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    14. Whichever one uses the whip (forget if it’s Tyene or Nymeria, I watched with the sound off) bears a striking resemblance to season 1 Dany without the platinum wig.

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    15. Phyllis Ashley,

      Arkash,

      Tyene is Ellaria’s daughter in the show. Might explain why she doesn’t seem to have the same characteristics as in the books. Although, we have literally seen no dialogue from the Sand Snakes. So we can’t say for sure.

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    16. Really cool video! Great to see the Sand Snakes up-close at last. Obara looks as hard-ass as in the books (it was a fear that the actress was “too beautiful” for the role, if I recall correctly.) Then, Nymeria looks stunning and dangerous, and Tyene simply so cute.

      aurane waters,

      I’m pretty sure they’re turning Tyene into one of Ellaria’s daughters, so it would make no sense to make her blonde or whatever to distinguish her from Obara and Nym. If anything, they could have easily made Nym look however they liked, considering her mother is an Essosi noblewoman. In a way, they did —she looks half-Asian.

      Phyllis Ashley,

      As I said, in the show Tyene will not be the daughter of a septa, but one of Ellaria’s daughters with Oberyn.

      Also, Tyene’s leaked audition tape had a scene in which she poisoned Bronn (non-lethally, don’t worry), so that factor of the character is not being ignored.

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    17. Wow, the actresses are just beautiful! I like the Dorne’s style already.

      Can’t wait to see Obara taking on Jaime. Keisha Castle-Hughes is 5’6′ vs NWC at 6’2′ and she’s also proably 2/3 of his weight. It will be very interesting to see that fight.

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    18. Forget the long axe looking gorgeous…. Those Sand Snakes look…. Dornishly gorgeous!

      What was that old catchphrase title of some (now) old movie? Deadlier Than The Male!

      Definite Wu-Shu influences throughout Dornish weaponry.

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    19. Phyllis Ashley:
      Stop being gross, fellas. No one is impressed by your humor.

      Huh? The breastplate joke is a GRRM joke. If you recall he often has a running gag line said by Tyrion that reads “as useless as nipples on a breastplate”.

      Meant no offense

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    20. Phyllis Ashley,

      Exactly – I am really afraid that the show has just made these three into cartoon (Xena reference here) cutouts of each other with no distinguishing personalities. So hope I am wrong but not getting a good impression from what we’ve seen so far. The weapons are beautiful tho

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    21. They look ok. Still think the costumes look a little plain though and the nipples are quite an odd touch. Tyene is the worry as she doesn’t seem to put across the sweet and innocent side which she may need if she’s to

      infliltrate the Faith

      . Plus duel daggers look a bit videogamey for me. Not massively fussed what they do with the SS though as they’re devoid of personality in the books so as long as they don’t massively effect other characters storylines then they can do what they want with them.
      I imagined Areo completely differently when reading the books including his weapon (I was thinking more of a halberd with emphasis on the axe) but as he’s a non-event of a character then not too fussed about the change, although hope they drop that he is from Norvos as the lack of beard is annoying!
      Are we certain that that’s Jaime he’s interacting with? I don’t think we need to fear anyone

      losing their head

      at that point in the story as if the leaked script is anything to go by this happens before Jaime meets Doran and Bronn and the SS are imprisoned. Still think Bronn or Obara are going to get it though. Hopefully the latter. Also hope in these fight scenes Jaime can pull back some dignity as they’ve massively underrepresented his swordsmanship so far in the show. To put in a poor showing against gimmicky characters like the SS would be rather annoying.

      EDIT: Pretty sure it’s Jaime as he’s holding his sword in his left hand!

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    22. Patchy Face,

      We haven’t heard a word of dialogue from them. It’s a bit presumptuous to assume they will all be the same character with the same personality based on them wearing the same armor. And as for cartoon characters, they are the Sand Snakes. Is there a more cartoony name in all of the books, outside of Darkstar? I don’t think it will be hard to portray their personalities. Obara is ill-tempered. Tyene acts sweet and innocent. And Nymeria is…seductive? I forget. They each only have a couple of scenes in the books so far.

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    23. TheTouchofFrost,

      Not sure what a beard or Areo being from Norvos has to do with the big picture. Those are book details that really don’t matter for the TV show.

      I think it’s a little odd to quibble over the personality details of the Sand Snakes and then claim they don’t have any personality.

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    24. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      They obviously have an extended role, along with Ellaria, all of them substituting Arianne in some way. And yes, we must remember we haven’t heard any dialogue from them, we don’t know anything but their appearance. Which is quite cool, in my opinion.

      As for cartoony names, Oberyn was only referred to as “The Red Viper” once in the whole season, just before his fight. We also have never heard “Queen of Thornes” inside the show, though Olenna has been referred as such in TV-related materials. So, I very much doubt we’ll hear the term “Sand Snakes” a lot, if we hear it at all.

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    25. So many breastplate nipples………
      …… but I thought it was warm down in Dorne?

      Somebody above mentioned

      Trystane taking the role of Oakheart in the queen maker plot….. to the end? Doubt it. I don’t think he will be the recipient of Hotah’s axe…..

      STOKED!

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    26. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Well we have their auditions ;). But I agree we need to see it actually play out. I liked Nymeria and Tyene Sand in the book. And I loved Obara’s fire when she was

      rallying Dorne to war after Oberyn’s death.

      I’m cautiously optimistic that they can pull it off. It all falls on acting ability. If they can make it feel real and not campy then they will have accomplished their goal.

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    27. Hell has frozen over. WiC has a new opinion piece and it’s not shitty.

      Anyway, I’m really pumped about this storyline, especially now that it’s becoming clearer how it will play out: though Arianne is gone, her role seems to have been taken up by Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, and Jaime and Bronn are somehow thrown into the mix as well (the obvious parallel is Balon Swann, who has a similar mission in the books, but of course Jaime and Bronn will be more involved.)

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    28. I seem to be one of the few who is not a fan of the Sand Snakes thus far.

      I’ll reserve final judgement for when the show airs, but they’re not cutting it for me so far. The weapons are really good, I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with the rest of the look.

      For starters, I really don’t like the outfits. These are meant to be fighters, and only Obara looks remotely battle-ready. Perhaps those are regular clothes for Nym and Tyene, but it seems to me like a simple gust of wind would render the two of them starkers.

      Then, more importantly, the look of the actresses themselves. In my opinion, Rosabell and Jessica have quite a child-like look about them, and coupled with the less-than-stellar outfits, they look more like your average comic-con cosplayers than actual characters to me. The biggest factor though is that only Keisha looks remotely Dornish in my eyes, nor do they look like Oberyn or, (assuming they are making it so), Ellaria.

      Just my two cents.

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    29. Matthew,

      Nymeria and Tyene aren’t wearing their armor in those photos. Also, I don’t see how they look ‘child-like’. They both could pass as Dornish too, not that we need to have that argument again. That was so season 4.

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    30. Sue the Fury,

      Exactly my point. If they’re not going to include elements of Norvos culture ( e.g. bearded priests and those trained by them are not allowed to shave) in his character then there’s no point of making mention of it.

      Wouldn’t consider that the only thing we know about the character is that she’s the daughter of a septa and comes across as sweet and innocent being the sign of a particularly well-fleshed out personality! The Septa thing would be relevant going forward for the reasons spoiler-hidden in my previous post!

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    31. Phyllis Ashley,

      I don’t know in which branch of academia you are, but hopefully you find that most of the men now are a bit less piggish than your average Westerosi!

      TheTouchofFrost: Tyene is the worry as she doesn’t seem to put across the sweet and innocent side which she may need if she’s to

      And you can tell that from a picture… how? That is all mannerism, which we will see only in the show. Moreover, it’s not necessary: the character jokes in the books that it will help, but as anybody who has had real life experience with such people knows that “sweet and innocent” is less apt than “bitter bulldog”!

      Sister Kisser,
      That might have been me. And, no, I don’t expect that the ending will be the same. The specific doings of incidental characters rarely are important for plots and almost never for stories: cats, skinning, many ways, etc.

      TheTouchofFrost: although hope they drop that he is from Norvos as the lack of beard is annoying!

      Yes, that plot hole will get the viewers screaming….. (I’m a hardcore fan, and even I don’t get what that is supposed to mean!)

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    32. Thomas: Agreed on everything. I really feel that Dorne is going to be a huge disaster.

      I, too, am a bit worried about it. I thought that this part of the book was disastrously tedious, and although I appreciate that they’ve done a lot to improve it, I worry that it isn’t enough. I would have been much happier had they found a way to cut this AND the Iron Island stuff. (I am in the “Dorne is worse than the Iron Islands” camp, but I thought that both were pretty darned weak.)

      Let’s cross our fingers that the season doesn’t jump the Aes Sedai because of this…..

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    33. Phyllis Ashley,

      I agree. It is best to have a significant Dornish presence in Oldtown and KL during these tumultuous times!

      Thomas,

      Celluloid disasters, like beauty, are usually relegated to the eye of the beholder. I thought the dragon film, Reign of Fire, was a masterpiece but sadly I seem to be in the minority wrt that opinion. Every aspect of Dorne will be scrutinized to death, I’m sure!

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    34. Yeah the Sand Snakes look badass. Obara in particular…she has that Dornish scowl down. She was so sweet in the cast video…but wow…nailed it.

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    35. Well, this was a nice surprise. I was worried about Hotah’s weapon, because I didn’t see an axe in that staff of his (and after how silly the Magnar’s axe looked, I wasn’t waiting for another one), making it a bill is a sensible choice.

      I’m a big fan of the Dornish spears. Nice to see it be a callback to Oberyn. I’m not sure about the whip yet. It seems such a boring weapon, but they’ll make it work. That weapon is made for flash and the show usually does a good job with that.

      Not a big fan of the daggers. They don’t look very practical. The Kriss blades are very cool and they would make it harder to grab the blade, but I’m not sure about the hilt. In particular the guard seems kind of… puny. I can’t see her blocking swords with that, but perhaps she won’t use them that way.

      aurane waters:
      wish they had made Tyene more different from other sand snakes even if they weren’t going to keep her book persona

      Yeah, Unsullied are going to have a hard time keeping them apart. I think it would have been wiser to have more than weapon of choice and hairlength to differentiate between the different Sand Snakes. Perhaps one of them should have had more colourful outfits than that drab brown leather. Bring us some Dornish silks!

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    36. Those weapons are amazing!!! Aeroh´s axe might be one of the coolest weapons on tv&films! He looks fucking dangerous wilding it.

      He might be stopping Braime from kidnapping Myrcela

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    37. So awsome! The amout of effort they put on each piece is incredible. It’s nice to have a better look at their non-armor outfits. Keisha looks ready to kill and Nym is perfect as always. Oh, and something I dod not see anyone mention in the comments: Nymeria has a dagger. You can see her holding it on that shot of her and on the shot at the end with all the weapons laying on the ground. It reminds me of a snake’s fang, and it’s good to know they have not ignored that skill of hers from the books. I’m hyped.

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    38. Some off-topic speculation, the spanish GoT page released a promo for season 5 that takes place in Osuna, it’s in spanish and there’s no show content in it, but half way through it you can hear a dragon roar that it’s deeper and scarier than what we’ve heard before. I’m pretty sure that’s how the dragons, or at least Drogon will sound in season 5: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=804125809642060
      Perhaps cut from a certain scene *caugh*

      Ok, it’s not that much, but for some reason it got me REALLY excited! 😀

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    39. The weapons look amazing. I am so excited for Dorne and the Sand Snakes. I think they did a great job casting 3 women who look like they could be half-sisters. I also don’t mind the change of Tyene being Ellaria’s daughter for the show. I think it raises the stakes to have one of the 3 featured Sand Snakes be Ellaria’s daughter, as opposed to her step-daughter. I also think the actress playing Tyene has the innocent look book-readers associate with her.

      On a side note, I didn’t realize KHC was that tall. 5’6″ isn’t really that tall, mind you, but I always thought her much more petite.

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    40. Wimsey,

      Well, the fact she’s carrying two daggers and looks as miserable as sin is a bit of a hint! Plus if she’s now Ellaria’s daughter, as someone has mentioned, she won’t be as well versed with the ins an outs of the religious institution. I mean it’s get roundable, but seems like a change to try and be more ‘badass’ which is a bit shallow for my tastes.
      Not hardcore enough it would seem! 😛 Hair growth is quite a big deal in Norvos. As I mentioned, if the origin of him isn’t going to be elaborated on then why pick Norvos over somewhere more generic and vague like Qohor, Sarnor, Lhazar or even as far as The Summer Isles ( always thought it was one of the most interesting of the unexplored areas from the universe). Of course the average show fan won’t care but by the same token why use Norvos when anywhere would do for him?

      wizardeyes,

      I have a feeling that’s why they’ve got a cult following despite having not actually done a great deal of anything yet.

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    41. Sue the Fury:
      Maybe it’s because I’m a woman and my eyes don’t immediately fixate on breasts, but I didn’t even notice the nipples this time around because Keisha look so freakin badass.

      Perhaps it’s just because you’re a woman but either way it’s the over sexualization of the female breast and nipple that has most males popping boners and obsessing over something as simple as a woman’s chest.

      Also they’re sharpppppppppppppppppp.

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    42. All this show emphasis on Dorne has got me intrigued to see it – I disliked it in the book. But I hope it won’t be at the expense of Oldtown which was fascinating.

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    43. Darjan,

      Exactly, it kind of looks like Jaime but I can’t get anything to confirm..

      EDIT: Ah Yes, Touch of Frost, totally, left hand sword must mean Jaime!

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    44. Ren Snow,

      Hotah has worked for Doran for a long time. I’m not sure if the show will mention him being employed by Doran’s wife first, or just state that he has worked for Doran this whole time. Either way, it is not unreasonable to think that his axe would be redesigned to reflect his presence with the royal family. For him, it would be quite the honor.

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    45. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Not sure why I’m shying away from claiming it makes sense that he be from the Summer Isles as that appears to be the sub-saharan Africa equivalent in the universe. It’s a fantasy medieval world so there are very,very few truly multicultural societies so it would be less believable if he were from certain places.

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    46. Luka Nieto,

      It doesn’t matter to a lot of fans but for something as minor as mentioning the name of another place to keep a few picky bastards like me happy and it having no effect on the vast majority of folks then why not?

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    47. TheTouchofFrost,

      Well, then you’d have some people up in arms that they’ve changed the racial makeup of Norvos, I’m sure. You may be right, but I personally bet they’ve made Areo Hotah a Summer Islander.

      aurane waters,

      Isn’t that the whole point of Tyene’s guise in the books? Looking childish, pure, innocent —exactly like someone who’d definitely never, ever, for any reason, stab you in the back or poison you.

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    48. I think where he is from isn’t that important, they’ll make him from Norvos, or anywhere else foreign, or just say he’s Dornish, or not even address it. The point is he’s big, badass, with a huge axe. Now I would like to know the context of the fight…

      as many have said, presuming it has something to do with Myrcella, Jaime appears to be there. Not really sure what else we can say for sure. I kind of doubt they will go for her as a rival Queen. Somehow I also doubt they will kill off Trystane because with Arianne and Quentyn out of the show, this leaves House Martell with no heir proper. Perhaps Obara as heir then? The show has already introduced the idea that bastards have a much higher place in Dornish society. But still I doubt they will go there. Perhaps it’s just a planned escape with Myrcella on Cersei’s orders, but this gets interrupted? And Bronn gets the axe??

      And yes as someone said, Alexander Siddig will be there to anchor this whole crazy Dorne thing, so I have faith 🙂

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    49. Jaime’s girl,

      It is Jaime but he’s obviously not going to die. This fight between Jaime, Bronn and the Sand Snakes is the one described here. http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-filming-leaks-confirm-jaimes-season-5-storyline/
      This will be in ep. 504 or 505 right after Jaime and Bronn’s arrival in Dorne. Neither of them will die in this fight and as we know, Jaime will be in ep. 509 still in Dorne, still alive and well.

      Given how significantly the Dorne material’s been altered I don’t think anyone will take on the Arys role.

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    50. Greenjones,

      Ok so then is Areo in that fight as well??? Because I thought it was supposed to be Jaime and Bronn is disguise and they fight the Sand Snakes but it looks like Jaime is in that bizarre Dorny costume in the clip above vs Areo. Maybe that’s the piece I am missing. If Areo is there in the first fight when Bronn and Jaime are arriving then that must be what this footage is from.

      Otherwise I was thinking Areo would be brought out for a later fight as Jaime is trying to leave Dorne (with Myrcella??) and this could be where someone gets killed by him, mimicking the Feast plot a little more closely.

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    51. Greenjones,

      Ah yeah I just saw this in the previous article which I must have forgotten:

      “A fight between the group ensues, until Areo Hotah shows up and orders everyone to put their weapons down.”

      Phew! 🙂

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    52. Hexonx,

      Yes, it is. And the blade of a glaive is basically an axe head, is it not? So it’s not that inaccurate to call it an axe. More “unspecific” than “inaccurate”, I’d say. Then again, I’m no weapons expert.

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    53. Jaime’s girl,

      No. Areo stops the fight between them and the Sand Snakes. The article I linked http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-filming-leaks-confirm-jaimes-season-5-storyline/ from this very site tells us just that. He doesn’t kill one of them, he holds the axe to Jaime’s neck to get him to surrender.

      When Jaime and Bronn arrive they fight Dornish guards and take their uniforms. This was filmed on Portstewart Strand and was seen in the trailer in the sequence with taking down one on a horse. Then they sneak into the Water Gardens and the sequence of events described in that article takes place.

      EDIT: You saw the link in time. NVM.

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    54. Not Impressed at all by the weapons for Dorne. The axe isn’t really an axe more a Glaive, the Spear is okay at best. The whip looks as if the snake thing would get in the way of a decent grip though I have a great appreciation for whip making and I detest the wavy blades on the daggers. Quite sad I’ve been really impressed with his work so far and I thought he’d got the other weapons/Armour pretty much spot on apart from maybe the Lannister Samurai armour. I still want a show Ice and Hound helm. Also nipples on the bloody armour 🙁 and don’t give me that mold excuse.

      Also is Aero from Dorne now ? He’s meant to be “married” to his axe that he’s had since graduating the order.

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    55. Luka Nieto,

      To be honest, not sure why the need to mention where he’s from at all if it’s of no relevance. If they feel the need to then Summer Isles would be the way to go…although I seem to remember some parts of Dorne have darker-skinned inhabitants than others?!

      Jaime’s girl,

      They value bastards more highly but wouldn’t give them pride of place in the branch of the royal family in direct line to the throne. This is why Quentyn/Arianne/ Quentyne are important chess pieces and also why they need Myrcella. I don’t think Jaime is any peril. They’ll all make it out of that particular scrape relatively unscathed. The two obvious candidates are Bronn and Obara as they’re both the most disposable. I can’t see them keeping Jaime in Dorne to go on a Myrcella maimer/killer hunt with Obara so I think she’s quite disposable especially as we don’t really need that many sand snakes. Trystane should be ok as Doran wouldn’t let Areo hack off his (apparently) only heir’s head. Other two Sand Snakes are potentially diposable depending on how relevant they are going forward. Bronn dying could happen as I don’t see him playing much more of a part going forwards but if he takes on the ‘doing it for love/lust’ element of Arys’ character it would be pretty shite as doesn’t go with his character up to this point at all. Maybe Ellaria gets killed off? Again, can’t see her being a factor in the future. I think the folks who are most in the firing line are Myrcella, Bronn and Obara.

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    56. wizardeyes,

      Don’t know about major players. The characters themselves will be supporting cast but Dorne as a faction still has a role to play I would have thought.

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    57. Luka Nieto:
      Hexonx,

      Yes, it is. And the blade of a glaive is basically an axe head, is it not? So it’s not that inaccurate to call it an axe. More “unspecific” than “inaccurate”, I’d say. Then again, I’m no weapons expert.

      Yeah, I’m not upset about it or anything. Just thought it weird no one had pointed it out yet. Also for being a weapons master you would think Tommy would use the proper term.

      Per Wikipedia:

      A glaive is a European polearm weapon, consisting of a single-edged blade on the end of a pole. Typically, the blade was around 45 cm (18 inches) long, on the end of a pole 2 m (6 or 7 feet) long, and the blade was affixed in a socket-shaft configuration similar to an axe head, rather than having a tang like a sword.

      Edit – Apologies to TorbofThrones who I see pointed it out earlier.

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    58. TheTouchofFrost,

      Yeah we know according to Cersei’s phrophecy that Myrcella will die at some point before her

      Greenjones,

      that’s exactly what freaked me out, we know he survives the mid-season Welcome to Dorne fight, because he’s in Ep 9, but I was going to be pissed as hell if they killed him off Arys style at the very end of the season.. D&D will incur my full wrath! 😉 Bronn is more likely if anyone (fingers crossed)
      Makes more sense now that I know the shot in the clip is from the mid-season fight we know about 🙂

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    59. TheTouchofFrost,

      How are the Sand Snakes disposable? Especially all of them?

      GRRM has said we’ll “see a lot of the Sand Snakes in TWOW”, which means AFFC/ADWD was but an introduction to the characters. I know you don’t like them very much, but that’s where GRRM himself has said he’s taking the characters, and considering D&D have cast them over, say, Arianne or the Greyjoy uncles, I’d say they agree.

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    60. Those are some fierce-looking women right there! And Hotah appears suitably intimidating as well. All of these weapons look dynamite – as always, Tommy Dunne’s work remains impeccable. The level of craftmanship that goes into even minor elements of Game of Thrones’ production remains extraordinary.

      From the actresses who have been cast to fill the roles (Keisha Castle-Hughes was amazing in The Whale Rider) to the glimpses that we’ve gotten of their distinctive fighting styles, pretty much everything I’ve seen from the show’s vision of the Sand Snakes has only increased my interest in seeing them in action. I thought that they had the potential to be great characters in the novels, but through the two books that they’ve (briefly) appeared in so far, that potential really hasn’t been realized because none of them have had the chance to do all that much.

      The moment that Doran hears that they might be out to cause trouble, he has them all locked up. That was a wise decision on his part, but an unfortunate break for readers who were hoping to see them develop a bit more depth. By the time that Obara, Nymeria, and Tyene are released, all they can do is seethe, refuse to toast Tommen, and receive their new missions from Doran before the Dornish storyline runs out of chapters. It looks like the show will give them the opportunity to be far more active from the outset. In my opinion, this can only be a good thing.

      I have every expectation that we’ll see the Sand Snakes’ full capabilities on display in The Winds of Winter, but I’m glad that Game of Thrones is getting a jump on showing us what they can do.

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    61. Jaime’s girl,

      I’m pretty certain that Doran will let him leave Dorne in 509, probably even with Myrcella with him. Then later in the ep. when Trystane, Ellaria and co. question the sense in this and call him an appeaser etc. he’ll give them the “Fire and Blood” speech.

      I don’t think Bronn will die either. We already know he survives being poisoned by Tyene (via her audition scene). If they wanted to kill him they’d have had that do the trick. I don’t think anyone will fill the Arys role because I doubt there will be a thwarted Queenmaker plot to begin with. Just Jaime, Bronn, Ellaria and the Sand Snakes will be locked up after the kerfuffle described in that WOTW article about the fight. The Doran will decide what to do.

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    62. Greenjones,

      This would make a lot of sense. It would fit with bridging the gap between the books and just streamlining things. I’m really hoping you’re right and we get Fire and Blood bit as well- I mean they cast Alexander Siddig so they should use him!

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    63. Luka Nieto,

      We’ve been through this many times already. What GRRM deems important is not the same as what the show deems important. Think George deems LS, Aegon, the Greyjoys, Arianne and others important and will be taking up an awful lot of page space in tWoW but they look to have been left out of the show. D&D have also introduced characters that have been neglected or used more sparsely too (Dondarrion, BwB, Yara, Balon) . Also, mayhaps they have been cast because they’re disposable? Dorne is a pretty self-contained plot so it would be a lot easier to introduce and then drop than other characters tied up in the beef of the story.Tell me what Obara’s purpose is going to be if Jaime leaves Dorne and doesn’t take up Balon Swan’s role? They are not crucial characters to the overall plot merely supporting. We may be seeing more of them but they are far more disposable than many other characters.
      This isn’t aimed at you, but I really don’t get this love for the SS. They may have potential but they have done nothing to warrant such devotion from certain sections of the fandom. At the moment, people can only really like them from an aesthetic perspective which is fine but doesn’t appeal to me.

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    64. Really liking the look of the Sand Snakes. Glad that those earlier outfits shown in the on-set pictures are not what they are wearing full time (well, except for Obara, but it makes sense for her to always be in armor).

      With Hotah, I like his look, but it makes me think that they are taking the character in a somewhat different direction. Hotah in the books is a sort of warrior monk and naturally an ascetic and doesn’t really fit in. In contrast, this Hotah is dressed opulently in “household livery”.

      One thing I have been thinking related to this-

      I think it’s fitting for Bronn to be killed by him because Bronn is all about scorning knights/honorable warriors and basically sees lowborn sellswords like himself as the superior fighters. Thus, I can see him underestimating Hotah, because Hotah comes off as just being a family retainer and the way his ax/glaive is decorated makes it look ceremonial.

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    65. I think they are missing out with Hotah in so far as world-building goes. His axe is gorgeous – but Why did it have to be Snakes? Not when it could have been Dragons with an Explanation.

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    66. Stunning craftsmanship on those weapons! And it’s great to be given a close look at them. I remember making some fake weapons when I did props/art department, the kind that look good from a distance, but those are the real deal, I have craft-envy.
      They look functional despite the ornamentation, and the level of detailing, like the filigree on the axe handle, is mind-blowing. Lucky actors, who get to play with these!
      And I really can’t wait to see Dorne on screen at last…

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    67. Jordan,

      I agree with your take on Bronn. But it will not happen in that fight, we pretty much know both Jaime and Bronn will survive it.

      I think it would be cool if they expand Tyene striptease for Bronn from audition to show version of Arianne/Arys, just without love and honour. Instead with lust on Bronn side and treachery from Tyene side. She could use him for some plot which get him killed from Areo Hotah. Escape from prison and assasination attempt on Myrcella could be such plot.

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    68. Jaime’s girl,

      Areo wouldn’t be swinging at some anonymous guard, unless it’s an

      assassin that Jaime didn’t know about. Cersei not trusting Jaime completely. Hope it’s not Bronn, we all know it’s not Jaime because he meets with Doran after getting caught.

        Quote  Reply

    69. tyjon,

      It’s Jaime. Areo’s not swinging the axe at him though, he’s putting it to his neck to subdue him. Jaime won’t die, since this fight is in 504 or 505 and he’s alive in 509. Check out the links in my above posts for my proof.

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    70. Why would you cast a white actress to play Tyene, then make her the child of two non-white characters? The entire point in the novels is that she’s the daughter of Oberyn and a white woman, and looks like her mother.

      As for the costumes: there are no “nipples” on this armor…in the sense that there’s no outright circle design at the tips of the breasts. They are very pointy, though – and as Clapton explained they needed to be sanded down more.

      A minor point maybe, but it irks me; why call it “nipple armor” when it’s “pointy boob armor” — still not the greatest thing, but somehow to me a few steps down from outright nipples on a breastplate.

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    71. The Dragon Demands,

      “Why would you cast a white actress to play Tyene, then make her the child of two non-white characters?”

      That makes absolutely no sense. Rosabell Laurenti Sellers is Italian. Pedro Pascal is Chilean. Indira Varma is half-Indian half-Swiss (though of Italian descent.) Spaniards (and descendants of them) and Italians look pretty much alike —as a Spaniard, I can assure you of that. Southerners in both countries are more tanned and look “less white”, and Northerners pretty much all look pale and rosy, though very few are blondes. They’re white, though I guess in some cultures they are set apart as “latino” —e.g. in America, it seems “white” was until very recently only used for WASPs, and has only broadened as of late. Anyway, whatever you call it, the point is Pascal and Sellers (and half of Varma) are of a very similar ethnicity.

      Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXovJSCc6M0

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    72. I don’t have the slightest difficulty imagining the daughter of someone who looks like Pedro Pascal and someone who looks like Indira Varma looking like the actress playing Tyene.

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    73. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Exactly. My father, a Spaniard technically born in the North but with parents from the South, wouldn’t look out of place in Dorne, or any Arab country, especially when he tans. His siblings, however, wouldn’t. At all. One of them is blonde! My mother, a Northerner, is blonde and has blue eyes. Their offspring? I have green eyes, dark blonde hair, and pale skin. My brother has dark hair and blue eyes.

      Tyene could easily be the daughter of Ellaria and Oberyn. It’s not even unlikely. They pretty much all look like the same ethnicity, except maybe Ellaria, who looks more Indian. This is not a matter of suspension of disbelief, or accepting it as TV-reality; it’s 100% believable, because the actors do in fact share a very close ethnicity. I see more unlikely-looking off-springs every day where I’m from.

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    74. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I agree. I don’t have any problem seeing them as Pedro Pascal and Indira Varma’s daughters to be honest LOL. I think the make up, the clothing and my predisposition to like this plot helps a lot. They all look Dornish and resembling a combination of Oberyn/Ellaria to me.

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    75. Atomix: I think they are missing out with Hotah in so far as world-building goes.

      World building is often detrimental to story-telling, as it is just random trivia that does not further the tale in any way. Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber watch the History Channel when they want “world-building”: when they watch HBO series, they want a story.

      Despite the fact that I’ve been a lifelong scifi/fantasy fan, this is one aspect of the fandoms that always has baffled me: the “I love world-building” crowd. It exists in every fandom. However, it all pales next to real history, and it is always very secondary to storytelling for the authors. (Tolkien and Rowling both expressed dismay at the level of “world-building” questions they would get [and still get in JKR’s case] from fans: people ask questions that the authors never considered in a hunt for “details.”)

      tyjon: For all those nipple’s on breastplate complainers, it’s not realistic.

      I think you left out a crucial “un” in there!

      Luka Nieto: They’re white, though I guess in some cultures they are set apart as “latino” —e.g. in America, it seems “white” was until very recently only used for WASPs, and has only broadened as of late.

      heh, it’s contracting again, at least in some circles of the US…. However, your main point stands: genetic recombination coupled with recessive genes can play these “tricks.” (It’s also completely irrelevant to the story how the Sand Snakes appear, save that they shouldn’t look like they cannot possibly by Oberyn’s daughters: but in TV & film, I’m not sure what that would be!)

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    76. Every time I see that horrible armour, I cringe. So much care going into designing weapons but their armour design are something straight out of Xena? Ugh.

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    77. Luka Nieto,

      I’m with Luka on this one. I don’t have a problem with the casting. I think all the Sand Snakes could pass for half-sisters and Oberyn’s daughters well enough.

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    78. Jaime’s girl,
      They go together particularly well when you consider how little most TV and film family members resemble each other. Of course, the simple truth is that the pool of actors and actresses is nowhere near big enough for this to be a criterion when casting people.

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    79. Luka Nieto:
      Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Exactly. My father, a Spaniard technically born in the North but with parents from the South, wouldn’t look out of place in Dorne, or any Arab country, especially when he tans. His siblings, however, wouldn’t. At all. One of them is blonde! My mother, a Northerner, is blonde and has blue eyes. Their offspring? I have green eyes, dark blonde hair, and pale skin. My brother has dark hair and blue eyes.

      Tyene could easily be the daughter of Ellaria and Oberyn. It’s not even unlikely. They pretty much all look like the same ethnicity, except maybe Ellaria, who looks more Indian. This is not a matter of suspension of disbelief, or accepting it as TV-reality; it’s 100% believable, because the actors do in fact share a very close ethnicity. I see more unlikely-looking off-springs every day where I’m from.

      Same! I look classically Italian, yet my dark hair and eyes come from my Irish mother; my (Northern) Italian father is blond and blue-eyed. I think the Sand Snakes look great, even with pointy breastplates, and I cannot wait to see them in action.

      DORNE!

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    80. It’s not even a question of pointy breast plates to me, more like unpractical battle outfits in general. Oh well. Y U NO HELMET, as GRRM has been known to say.

      In other news, Areo continues to look friggin badass *weeps from glory*

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    81. Ashara D: Same! I look classically Italian, yet my dark hair and eyes come from my Irish mother;

      Dark hair is very common among the Irish: it’s from “native” Gaelic genes, among other places. The blonde and red hair often represents Scandinavian genes from the many Viking incursions (Many Vikings essentially went native in Ireland), or from the Normans (who themselves were partially derived from the Norse). The dark eyes are always attributed to Spanish ancestry in my Irish side of the family: but it can also represent Saxon heritage.

      TheBerylfly: It’s not even a question of pointy breast plates to me, more like unpractical battle outfits in general.

      They do not look that much different from what people in desert regions wore for armor. It’s a trade off: it gets very hot in heavy armor, and although heavy armor provides good protection, what good is protection if you die of heat stroke?

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    82. Who is the last sand snake supposed to be? The one with the short hair. I wish she had longer hair. A haircut like that looks to modern in my opinion which detracts from my enjoyment.

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    83. Luka Nieto,

      ….first, your own Spain and Italy analogies don’t hold up. You state that people from southern Spain and Italy are darker skinned (generally), and you know this firsthand as you live in modern Spain.

      Yes, Dorne has a similar ethnic continuum geographically due to migration patterns, and it runs east to west. More Rhoynar in the east, less Rhoyar in the west. Oberyn and Ellaria explicitly look like the darker end of that spectrum, and no, the actress they cast doesn’t look like them.

      I wouldn’t mind as much (maybe) if it was a southern Italian actress or something but…..they didn’t cast that.

      To use your Spain analogy, it’s as if they took two characters from Seville in the south, and cast an an actress from Pamplona up in the north to play their child.

      ….This isn’t even a matter of when people were complaining if Pedro Pascal was “too white-passing” – do not equate the two situations.

      If they wanted Tyene to be more “salty Dornish” rather than waste time explaining that one is white, fair enough.

      What I’m annoyed about isn’t their answer, it’s that they don’t even seem to understand that there is a question.

      It’s just a jumbled up mess they didn’t think about.

      The Tyene actress doesn’t look particularly like Oberyn or Ellaria. That much is clear.

      But…..why?

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    84. A longer post I made timed out:

      “Anyway, whatever you call it, the point is Pascal and Sellers (and half of Varma) are of a very similar ethnicity.”

      ….Fundamentally, my point is that the specific actress playing Tyene doesn’t look like she could plausibly be the child of both Oberyn and Ellaria. Yes, there is an ethnic spectrum in Spain and Italy, with southern Spaniards and southern Italians looking darker-skinned…..and this actress doesn’t look like one of them.

      To the point that it would be jarring to treat her as Ellaria’s daughter.

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    85. Hotah’s weapon is amazing. But I really don’t like the rather genetic “fantasy weapon” look of the Sand Snake blades, what with those waves and all. Doesn’t seem to have a historical analog.

      Like their armor, however, Xena-esque or not.

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    86. The actress playing Tyene can easily pass as the daughter of Ellaria and Oberyn. This is a non-issue.

        Quote  Reply

    87. The Dragon Demands:
      Luka Nieto,

      What I’m annoyed about isn’t their answer, it’s that they don’t even seem to understand that there is a question.

      Because there is not any question. They cast a white dark haired girl as daughter of two white dark haired parents. That is all what is there.

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    88. GaiusB,

      Elio and Linda in their video review of the casting announcement also said they thought it odd that Tyene doesn’t look like Oberyn or Ellaria.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Ashara D,

      I’m not saying it’s implausible for Tyene to look like an Andal grandparent….what I’m asking is, if this is indeed the case…..why introduce such a needlessly complicated backstory, when they could have just cast someone who looks a lot more like Oberyn and Ellaria?

      D&D are all about cutting down on exposition, I doubt they’d even mention “Oh I look like Ellaria’s mother” or something. Oh we *could* make a fanon/practically canon explanation that ‘well she looks like a grandparent’ but….why?

      Meanwhile you keep alternating between saying “Sellers looks like Ellaria” and “Sellers doesn’t look like Ellaria but might just look like a grandparent”. Which one is it?

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    90. vlad,

      A bit young and too Asian-looking, isn’t she? Well, scratch that. Doran’s wife could have been an Asian-looking Essosi, just as Nym’s mother presumably was in the show. Still, a bit too young?

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    91. Luka Nieto,

      Nah, her age is fine, maybe she is even too old, afterall she should be same age as Tyene. But does she have big brown nipples? You know some book purists would be pissed if D+D would ruin Arianne by not including the most important part of her character….it would be even worse atrocity then “your sister”.

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    92. ArgonathofBraavos,

      Kris daggers (“the wavy blades”) are not fantasy weapons. Not in the slightest! Not only do they have a historical analogue; they exist in exactly that shape. Though Dorne is generally influenced by Spain and the Arab world, Oberyn’s clothes were said to be influenced mainly by Indian styles. Kris blades have been used in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Brunei, Singapore and the Philippines; it seems they’re sticking to that South Asian theme.

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    93. Luka Nieto:
      vlad,

      A bit young and too Asian-looking, isn’t she? Well, scratch that. Doran’s wife could have been an Asian-looking Essosi, just as Nym’s mother presumably was in the show. Still, a bit too young?

      Luka, Arriane was 24 in feast and Jessica was 22 last year. There’s no reason why D& D couldn’t age Arriane down and made her wharever ethnicity they felt like if they found the right actor to play her particulary if Arriane’s mother was never to appear in the show.

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    94. I screen captured Ms Henwick, and now I can watch Nym’s whip snapping
      awesomeness whenever my laptop is turned on.

      Can’t wait for great shots of the others, so as to build a Sand Snake desktop theme.

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    95. Luka Nieto:
      greywind’s ghost,

      You’re right. I just imagined her older, I think.

      I thought the same way- I think for me that has something to do with actors I thought could possibly play her ( Frida Pinto or Janina Gavanker) are in their late 20’s, early 30’s!

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    96. Heh. For those following the Wiki stuff, particularly from the other day on the Alex Graves issue and the current Tyene-is-too-white “controversy”: The Dragon Demands has banned me six months from the wiki for “pestering” him about his complaints that Tyene looks too white, the Tysha issue, and generally “ignoring the administration” (him.) Well, it’s not like I didn’t expect it and predict it, right? Do I get a cookie for my incredible predictive skills? 😛

      Oh well. I was a pain in his ass, to be honest. If he didn’t editorialize so much, I wouldn’t have bothered, but it is rather irksome to have all those completely subjective opinions covering a whole lot of text (the Tysha issue has a whole section to itself in the page for “The Children” episode!). Usually he just writes it down, and when he realizes he has to source it somehow, he uses… Elio’s and Linda’s equally subjective opinions about the matter! So I fought him on it and… this is the predictable result. To be fair, it’s not like I do that much in the wiki besides doing some menial work and pestering him, and he’s the greatest contributor there, so this was a fight I sort of had to lose, in a way.

      Still, I hope he tones down the subjective editorializing 😉

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    97. Mr Fixit,

      As I said, I was a pain in the arse for him, so the ban in itself is in no way controversial. The problem I see is what I was complaining about, not the fact that he banned me. He’s not “silencing” me or anything, or at least not to any degree that bothers me 😉

      I insist, the wiki is overall a great resource, in large part thanks to The Dragon Demands himself. I’ll defend his hard work till the day I die. If only he was less hot-headed about changes and such. That’s kinda the point: he doesn’t editorialize about everything —only negative things, usually changes from the book, and he writes about them in the most sensationalist way, with as many adverbs as possible (things like “they made the baffling decision to…”.) In other words, he has not written expansive sections like “Look how well done this was! This was a great change from the book, and I’m gonna explain why in detail!”. When other people try to do stuff like that, he usually deletes it… as he should, of course, but then he shouldn’t do the same.

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    98. Luka Nieto:
      Heh. For those following the Wiki stuff, particularly from the other day on the Alex Graves issue and the current Tyene-is-too-white “controversy”: The Dragon Demands has banned me six months from the wiki for “pestering” him about his complaints that Tyene looks too white, the Tysha issue, and generally “ignoring the administration” (him.) Well, it’s not like I didn’t expect it and predict it, right? Do I get a cookie for my incredible predictive skills?

      He is an idiot. Fuck him.

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    99. Luka Nieto,

      That’s how it usually starts, isn’t it? A little bit here, a little bit there… When the show starts really deviating from the books, what then? Will there be whole sections of the wiki devoted to dissing and venting?

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    100. Luka Nieto,

      Elio and Linda are a major news source.

      Yes we cannot avoid having a large note about omitting Tysha.

      Yes my first draft of the Tyene note was not great, so I rewrote it.

      I warned you about this more than once but you kept challenging the basic principle of keeping book comparisons.

      Yes upon further review I later removed those notes I made about Alex Graves and will try to work them in elsewhere.

      Serious Question: do you feel we should have made no comment about the complications arising from turning Jeyne Westerling into Talisa?

      ….Actually I made the ban specifically for criticizing the Tysha note, not the Tyene note, which was a valid issue.

      If you don’t challenge the presence of the Tysha note again, I will happily reinstate you immediately.

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    101. The Dragon Demands,

      I think it should be discussed in the “Differences from the books” section, maybe in the Notes of the episodes she’s involved in, and in her character page. Which I assume is the case. I see no problem, as long as it’s done well (haven’t seen if that’s the case.) However, if what’s been written doesn’t avoid your usual sensationalist and subjective language, well… I won’t like it very much, sorry. Not that I’m saying you should particularly care what I like, of course.

      As for Tysha, if her section from “The Children” wasn’t so ridiculously long (or if it was where it should be, in the “In the books” of her character page), and if it didn’t include the kind of language I described and tried to be more NPOV as wikis should be, I would have absolutely no problem with the Tysha section.

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    102. Luka Nieto:
      The Dragon Demands,

      I think it should be discussed in the “Differences from the books” section, maybe in the Notes of whichever articles she’s involved in, and in her character page. I see no problem with that, as long as it’s done well (haven’t seen it if it has.) However, if what’s been written doesn’t avoid your usual sensationalist and subjective language, well, no, I won’t like it very much.

      …I’ll try to review some of the exact wording like “Baffling”, but on general principle we do need a large note on Tysha just because it was a vast omitted subplot. I can work on the wording, and probably try to cut down the length — though it has to be where it is. “Differences from the Book” is for book fans to make comparisons, the main page notes are to inform TV-first fans “this is a major point you need to be aware of”. Putting it in the “Differences” section buries it (not as many read those, but this point is important).

      Eh, we’ll know more about Tyene later and decide what to say then. I’m lifting the ban.

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    103. The Dragon Demands,

      Thank you very much, though I’m not sure what convinced you, to be honest. I don’t think I’ve made any new arguments here.

      Personally, I wouldn’t describe Tysha as a “vast subplot.” The Greyjoys and the Griffs are vast subplots; I would find it understandable if the wiki had a fair amount of text explaining what their absence entails, in terms of overall differences to the books. These are big events, big characters, who cause ripples in other storylines. Cutting them makes a big difference. Meanwhile, the absence of Tysha’s revelation is mostly a matter of a different character motivation. There’s not much “plot” there at all (and what little there is was in the past), let alone a “vast subplot.”

      PS. I see you have asked me to suggest changes to the Tysha page, in my User page. However, I still appear as banned, so I can’t edit anything. I’ll get on it later, if the ban has lifted by then.

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    104. Luka Nieto,

      Well yeah, but Tysha is the *defining moment* of Tyrion’s life.

      I mean the line “My father had my first wife gang-raped” is a single sentence, not a “long subplot”, but it sure as hell redefines everything that comes afterwards.

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    105. The Dragon Demands,

      Fair enough. It’s certainly a change, I never denied that, but it’s a change that people should’ve known was coming. For the purposes of show|Tyrion, Tysha was a way for us to introduce his relationship with Tywin. She came up a couple times after that, in three years, and always only mentioned, never truly discussed. I wasn’t expecting them to suddenly do the Tysha reveal because by that point it would have meant little to showwatchers. Maybe reintroducing the story in 4×08, instead of (or along with) the long beetle story, would have been enough setup. I was certainly expecting it, but when that didn’t happen… Of course it wasn’t gonna pay off in 4×10. The absence of Tysha’s reveal is a show-wide issue, it has little to do with that particular episode. I don’t know why people expected the pay off when there was so little setup.

      Also, both this change and Shae’s increased importance as a genuine character and relationship, probably came from the same place, which is funny because book readers have criticized both. D&D wanted a meaningful, soon-to-be-traumatic relationahip for Tyrion… With a character currenyly present in the story. Since there’s no narration, that makes sense. In ADWD Tyrion rarely thinks about Shae, and he never stops thinking about Tysha. It made sense to switch the importance of that relationship and the ensuing trauma for the show, since it involves two characters we know, not only one.

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    106. After not even mentioning Tysha in 4.08 yes we should have realized something was different but….that doesn’t count as “setup” – only two episodes before, when they should have mentioned it, not mentioning it.

      Mentioning it at least once every season and then not isn’t a trend.

      Uh …comic book analogy: A Marvel writer who writes on Spiderman for 10 years says that he was a Skrull imposter the entire time. Fans are annoyed, and he defends that “I started setting this up last month!”

      Going *into* Season 4, by the Season 4 premiere, it was just as likely to happen.

      But this is all hypotheticals now.

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    107. Luka Nieto,

      OR they could have used flashbacks and/or conversations about Tysha. Elia Martell is dead and doesn’t appear either, but we feel her presence through how Oberyn talks about her.

      The same logic that was used to remove Tysha might as well have removed Elia Martell or Rhaegar Targaryen.

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    108. The Dragon Demands,

      You’re not wrong. But with Tyrion they could substitute Tysha with Shae, in a way. Was it successful? IMHO, not very, because I don’t like Sib’s acting very much. But it was a sound change in theory. This is the kind of thing that happens in adaptations all the time.

      I edited the previous comment with more on this so you might have missed it:

      Both Tysha’s absence and Shae’s increased importance as a genuine character and relationship probably came from the same place, which is funny because book readers have criticized both. D&D wanted a meaningful, soon-to-be-traumatic relationahip for Tyrion… With a character currently present in the story. Since there’s no narration, that makes sense. In ADWD Tyrion rarely thinks about Shae, and he never stops thinking about Tysha. It made sense to switch the importance of that relationship and the ensuing trauma for the show, since it involves two characters we know, not only one.

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    109. I don’t think it’s implausible that someone who looks like Rosabell could be the daughter of people who look like Pedro and Indira…

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    110. The Dragon Demands,

      Show-only fans have no clue what happened in the books. Why do they need to be made aware of anything that isn’t on the show? If they cared, they would go to the differences from the books section.

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    111. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      The Dragon Demands,

      Show-only fans have no clue what happened in the books. Why do they need to be made aware of anything that isn’t on the show? If they cared, they would go to the differences from the books section.

      I agree, GoT Wiki doesn’t need any references to the books. We have an ASOIAF Wiki for that.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      It affected so many other things that, as some reviewers noted, things just seemed to be “falling into place” without working on their own internal logic.

      In comparison, “Robb Stark breaks Frey alliance because he falls in love with Talisa” is different from “Robb Stark has grief-sex with Jeyne Westerling then marries her out of a sense of honor, breaking the Frey Alliance”….but both, admittedly, seem to follow their own internal lines of causation.

      In contrast….why the heck would Tyrion return to confront his father at all? Because they’re echoing what the book did, despite removing the reason the book did it. Why then did Tyrion go back to the Tower of the Hand? Basic revenge? It becomes a sort of dream-logic in which events fall into place without proceeding from each other.

      In short, it’s not just that they removed Tysha…it’s that they didn’t even remove her very neatly, but introduced plot holes surrounding it.

      @mau – pretty much every page has an “in the books” section, and we interlink to AWOIAF.

      It is impossible to ignore comparisons to the source material in adaptation.

      But to stress this again: it’s not simply that the TV show did it differently, but that they didn’t fully think out the consequences of those changes. Removing the entire chain subplot at Blackwater, and just replacing it with Bronn firing a flaming arrow to ignore wildfire? Brilliant idea. It was internally self-consistent.

      It’s not just that they never mention Tysha in the scene, but that Tyrion’s underlying motivations stop being coherent and it’s just a plot hole.

      Had the episode provided…some sort of other plausible line of dialogue explaining why the heck Tyrion would pause in the middle of an escape to go back to his father in the Tower of the Hand, I wouldn’t have noted it as prominently. The problem is the only way to explain “what just happened?” is to frame “this is how the novel did this scene, and the TV version cut some parts out and it doesn’t fit together quite as logically now”.

      Getting back to Tyene…if she is indeed Ellaria’s child, and if they later make some statement that she just looks like Ellaria’s mother or something, fine – the TV series is internally consistent with its own plot logic. I would be annoyed at the out-of-universe racial casting policies, but that doesn’t merit a big note (we’d mention for context that Salladhor Saan isn’t black in the novels, though it isn’t unusual to see ethnically Summer Islanders living in the Free Cities).

      …so to clarify, what I’m really annoyed about is “internal self consistency” — if they’re going to make a change they have to figure out some of the ripple effects of it instead of stumbling around blind.

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    113. I hadn’t read the books before I saw s4e10, and I thought it made sense that Tyrion would want to confront (not kill) his father, after he sentenced him to death. Finding Shae in his bed set him off, and made him want to kill him.
      It all made sense to me.

      That said, I do think we needed an explanation for why Shae betrayed Tyrion…

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    114. The Dragon Demands,

      “explaining why the heck Tyrion would pause in the middle of an escape to go back to his father in the Tower of the Hand”

      Because his father had framed him for murder (in addition to the whole lifetime of mistreatment, which includes Tysha, since that was mentioned in earlier seasons) and “A Lannister Always Pays His Debts”.

      It’s not that difficult to see why Tywin would be on Tyrion’s kill list. Despite Charles Dance’s charm, I don’t think any Unsullied questioned why Tyrion turned patricide.

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    115. Jordan,

      The stigma against kinslaying is high. Tyrion wouldn’t kill Joffrey, and now that he’s killed Tywin he’s on the run as a kinslayer instead of rightful heir to Casterly Rock. This is a *massive* problem Tyrion would pragmatically avoid.

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    116. @Luka Nieto

      Yeah when I fix up the Tysha note on “The Children” I need to reframe it less as “this was drastically changed” but as “in order to explain this we need to explain first how the books did it, because they omitted a few key elements which might have introduced a few plot holes”.

      Changing things in adaptation isn’t necessarily “bad”, but not thinking through the change WELL is.

        Quote  Reply

    117. The Dragon Demands,

      Uh he wouldn’t be given Casterly Rock had he remained in Westeros/not killed Tywin. Since Tyrion lost his trial-by-combat, he was “guilty” of Joffrey’s murder and due to be executed. Had he just left without killing his father, he’d still be a fugitive.

        Quote  Reply

    118. The Dragon Demands:
      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      @mau – pretty much every page has an “in the books” section, and we interlink to AWOIAF.

      It is impossible to ignore comparisons to the source material in adaptation.

      But to stress this again:it’s not simply that the TV show did it differently, but that they didn’t fully think out the consequences of those changes.Removing the entire chain subplot at Blackwater, and just replacing it with Bronn firing a flaming arrow to ignore wildfire?Brilliant idea.It was internally self-consistent.

      It’s not just that they never mention Tysha in the scene, but that Tyrion’s underlying motivations stop being coherent and it’s just a plot hole.

      Had the episode provided…some sort of other plausible line of dialogue explaining why the heck Tyrion would pause in the middle of an escape to go back to his father in the Tower of the Hand, I wouldn’t have noted it as prominently.The problem is the only way to explain “what just happened?” is to frame “this is how the novel did this scene, and the TV version cut some parts out and it doesn’t fit together quite as logically now”.

      I disagree. This show is made for non book readers because they are 90% of the audience.

      And for them there is nothing illogical in Tyrion’s motivation. Revenge He is a true Lannister, and Lannisters always pays their debts. He got his chance and done what he needed to do.

      Tyrion has definitely impulsive tendencies when it comes to his father – D.B. Weiss

      And they showed that many times in the series.

      Yes, they mention Tysha, but for the TV show, that served a purpose. They introduce Tyrion’s and Tywin’s relation from the past to us. It has been just information from the past and nothing more. Just like information about Arya’s childhood.

      There are millions of similar examples in different shows. For example, what happened to Jesse’s brother in Breaking Bad? He appeared once and never more. And he was a character, not just some piece of information. And Breaking Bad is considered one of the greatest shows of all time.

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    119. The Dragon Demands,

      If your problem with the absence of Jaime’s revelation about Tysha is really internal consistency, I must assume you haven’t taken a look at any Unsullied review of the episode, because literally no show watcher that I can remember had a problem understanding Tyrion’s motivation for killing Tywin. I’m not kidding —I challenge you to find any review which had problems with it. In the meantime I’m sure I can gather dozens which perfectly understood it and loved it. I mean, if we are introducing notable people’s opinions into the wiki, wouldn’t it be fair to include the perspective of the hundreds who loved that moment?

      Firstly, there’s the fact that Game of Thrones is a TV show, not a book. Tysha was a plot twist and served as Tyrion’s immediate motivation for looking after his father. In the show, the same was accomplished with a dark look and a slow, creepy version of the Rains of Castamere. And you want dialogue to explain his motivation? Great! There was! In the books, after killing Shae, Tyrion questions Tywin about Tysha. What does he do in the show? He literally explains his motivations for wanting to confront him:

      “All my life you’ve wanted me dead.”

      “I am your son and you sentenced me to die. You knew I didn’t poison Joffrey, but you sentenced me all the same. Why?”

      He went to Tywin’s chambers because he wanted to know how he could possibly sentence him to die, even though he must have known he was innocent. After Shae and after Tywin insulted her, well… his feelings got much, much murderous, similarly to the books.

      The motivations are there. Book readers were expecting other motivations so, when they weren’t there, some of them said “Why did he go to Tywin’s chambers? Why did he kill him?”. Ask that question to an Unsullied and they’ll understandably think you are kidding. “What do you mean why did he kill him? Are you asking why did Tyrion kill his own father, who told him to his face that if it wasn’t for the laws of Gods and men he would have killed him as a baby? Are you asking why did he kill the person who tormented him all his life for being a dwarf? And more importantly in the immediate sense, are you asking why did he kill the person who sentenced him to die even though he knew he was innocent? And finally, are you asking why didn’t Tyrion think things through? The man whose trial was literally full of quotes he had actually said, because Tyrion has always had a problem with keeping his mouth shut and not being so impulsive?”

      mau,

      “Yes, they mention Tysha, but for the TV show, that served a purpose. They introduce Tyrion’s and Tywin’s relation from the past to us. It has been just information from the past and nothing more. Just like information about Arya’s childhood.

      There are millions of similar examples in different shows. For example, what happened to Jesse’s brother in Breaking Bad? He appeared once and never more. And he was a character, not just some piece of information. And Breaking Bad is considered one of the greatest shows of all time.”

      Exactly! People use the word “plot hole” incorrectly, especially book readers who miss something from an adaptation.

        Quote  Reply

    120. As D.B. Weiss said Tyrion has impulsive tendencies when it comes to Tywin. And that was consistent to his character in the show.

      Tyrion in the show demanded a trial by combat without champion. And he admitted that he did that just to undermine Tywin’s plan to send him to the Wall.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Luka Nieto:
      The Dragon Demands,

      The motivations are there. Book readers were expecting other motivations so, when they weren’t there, some of them said “Why did he go to Tywin’s chambers? Why did he kill him?”. Ask that to an Unsullied. They’ll laugh at you. “What do you mean why did he kill him? Are you asking why did Tyrion kill his own father, who told him to his face that if it wasn’t for the laws of Gods and men he would have killed him as a baby? Are you asking why did he kill the person who tormented him all his life for being a dwarf? And more importantly in the immediate sense, are you asking why did he kill the person who sentenced him to die even though he knew he was innocent?

      I couldn’t have said it better. Tyrion had all the reasons in the world for offing Tywin, Tysha or no. Tywin sentenced his own son to die just so he could get him out of the way. He despised and hated Tyrion his whole life. And someone is supposed to have trouble understanding Tyrion’s motives? Come on!

      What we’re talking about here is another instance of “it’s different than in the books” thinly disguised to give it a veneer of objectivity and impartiality. Sure, people are free to like one version over the other, or argue the differences on artistic grounds, but to claim there’s a plot hole here… nope.

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    122. I am an unsullied for whom Tyrion’s murder of his father made perfect sense. Tyrion even said in his trial that he wished he had killed Joffrey, suggesting kinslaying isn’t an unthinkable taboo for him. Now that his father got him falsely convicted of it, he really has nothing to lose and everything to gain by actually being guilty of it.

      It is left ambiguous precisely why Shae betrayed him. Tywin’s order that all ships be prevented from leaving indicates that her escape was prevented that way, and since Cersei’s spy had already identified her as Tyrion’s mistress/Sansa’s handmaid she was picked up. The extent to which pressure was exerted on her vs her own willingness to punish Tyrion played a role is unknown.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Jaime’s girl,

      What desperate weasels they are. Apparently journalism just means retweeting now. They were cast in the early summer and they post this now?

      Ah well. Pedro Pascal proved these kinds of bullshit complaints wrong. I’m sure the new girls will too.

        Quote  Reply

    124. I’m sorry that I was posting angry instead of slowly addressing Luka Nieto’s issues point by point re Tysha and Tyene. Frustrating time on my end:

      1 – Very sick with bad cold, making me behind in my work.
      2 – Grandfather died yesterday – didn’t know him well, but my parents had to take an airplane down to funeral so I’ve been juggling setting up their flight and driving to airport, on top of heavy work pileup due to being sick.

      Indeed I mentioned before that I wasn’t devoting my full attention to the Tyene article which is why it came out really crappy the first time.

      I should not have complained about your contributions as much as I did, they are all useful.

      The solution is I need to rewrite the Tysha subsection, will continue discussion there…

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    125. On the Tysha matter. I’m with Luka et al on this one.

      In my family when that episode aired, myself and my mother had read through Tywin’s death, and my 2 brothers had not. There was absolutely no confusion for any of us.

      I really feel that Tysha would have been nice to include in fuller detail, and I certainly wanted more from Tyrion and Jaime’s parting, since that moment helps to define both characters’ trajectories going forward, but I understand why it was omitted. I don’t think it needed to be there at all to justify Tywin and Shae being murdered. I would question the assertion that it was the true motivation for Tywin’s murder anyway- I would imagine it was one more thing in a lifetime of mistreatment that Tyrion had to deal with. A big thing, yes, and in the front of his mind at that moment, but one of many things in a pattern of completely un-fatherly behavior.

      Who knows maybe we will get some dialogue on this topic from him in season 5 with Varys etc.

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    126. The Dragon Demands,

      I’m very sorry to hear that. Hope it all gets better soon.

      My contributions are usually either quite “mechanical” (such as castings, usually suggested by Greenjones) or small corrections, so I wouldn’t call them particularly useful, though I appreciate that you now see they’re also nothing to complain about. Both of our tempers get red hot sometimes, but I hope we can get that past us.

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    127. Greenjones,

      Yeah not exactly journalistic. One of the tweets even has fuck in it. not that I’m offended by such language, I talk like a sailor, but someone writing “ur white as fuck” on their twitter is not really a story.

      Oh internets. You so crazy.

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    128. Jaime’s girl,

      Good Lord. That “article” is clickbait garbage at its most elemental. Name of massively popular cultural touchstone in the headline for the search engines to pick up? Check. Serious moral accusation harnessed and trivialized for use as an inflammatory buzzword? Check. Claims of widespread “uproar” or “outrage” based on microscopic or nonexistent evidence? Check. Absolutely no meaningful information relayed to the reader? Check! Using fucking Twitter as a source? Bonus points! Truly, my day was not complete until I became privy to the opinion of someone named “euripedes mouse” and precisely why he or she thinks Rosabell Laurenti-Sellers’ ethnicity hinders her ability to convincingly play a fictional character who lives in a medieval fantasy world.

      (And by citing that information, I reveal that I actually clicked on the article, which implicates me in the problem. I feel stained. I’m going to go take a hot shower and pour myself a stiff drink. The rest of you, save yourselves).

      To think that I once actually considered Huffington Post as anything but a rag.

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    129. Greenjones: Ah well. Pedro Pascal proved these kinds of bullshit complaints wrong. I’m sure the new girls will too.

      To be blunt, Pedro didn’t prove any anything. You can’t “disprove” people’s personal feelings about whitewashing. He did a great acting job. No one was ever criticizing his acting work. People’s concerns had to do with his appropriateness for the role overall. I’m not interested in discussing his casting now, that’s water under the bridge, but acting ability never had and still doesn’t have much to do with whitewashing and people’s concerns about it.

      I think the article is garbage anyway and I’d rather people here weren’t even posting it and giving it hits, frankly. It’s clickbait. An article about what is really a serious topic being just a handful of tweets with a couple paragraphs that don’t truthfully convey everyone’s opinions- it’s not worth our time.

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    130. Jaime’s girl,

      “how do you mess up the #SandSnakes casting? They are supposed to be biracial and different in appearance from each other #GoT #GotS5”

      “tyene sand more like tyene snow ur white as fuck”

      Now, I think most people are aware I’m not the SS biggest fan but I’m pretty sure that all of them in the show are bi-racial and different in appearance from each other making this the single stupidest thing someone has ever posted! Also pretty certain that in the books they’re a lot “whiter” than in the show!
      It’s obviously a flame bait article but ‘Race Lifting’ in this case doesn’t play a massive role in the character’s make up. If it was something like the black James Bond or Human Torch or David Carradine in Kung Fu then I tend to agree that changing their ethnicity is lazy, gimmicky and changes the characters core dynamic too much. In the GoT situation, it still represents their bastard nature and they are still passable as their original incarnations with Tyene being the possible exception (ironically she should be more ‘white’ if these people want that sort of accuracy!).
      Amazing how race is still such a big deal for some folks…on both sides of the argument, in this day and age.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Jared:
      Jaime’s girl,

      Good Lord. That “article” is clickbait garbage at its most elemental. Name of massively popular cultural touchstone in the headline for the search engines to pick up? Check. Serious moral accusation harnessed and trivialized for use as an inflammatory buzzword? Check. Claims of widespread “uproar” or “outrage” based on microscopic or nonexistent evidence? Check. Absolutely no meaningful information relayed to the reader? Check! Using fucking Twitter as a source? Bonus points! Truly, my day was not complete until I became privy to the opinion of someone named “euripedes mouse” and precisely why he or she thinks Rosabell Laurenti-Sellers’ ethnicity hinders her ability to convincingly play a fictional character who lives in a medieval fantasy world.

      (And by citing that information, I reveal that I actually clicked on the article, which implicates me in the problem. I feel stained. I’m going to go take a hot shower and pour myself a stiff drink. The rest of you, save yourselves).

      To think that I once actually considered Huffington Post as anything but a rag.

      Piss-poor flame bait indeed!! I find it both curious and totally unsurprising that the “article” failed to mention that in the book Tyene is blue eyed with blonde hair.
      It also failed to show an example of what an 18 year old woman who has a Chilean father and half- Indian half- Swiss mother looks like – pathetic!!!!

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    132. They may have also wanted, before they wrote their article, to have taken the time to check out Rosabell’s resume and reviews of her work where they would have discovered that she is a highly-rated, award winning up and coming young actor.
      Instead they chose to cite a few twitter trolls as sources for their aticle- that says it all really about the quality of the Huffington Post’s work these days.

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    133. The Dragon Demands:
      GaiusB,

      Elio and Linda in their video review of the casting announcement also said they thought it odd that Tyene doesn’t look like Oberyn or Ellaria.

      Well, it is my opinion their sight was obscured by their dislike of the show.

      For those who are seriously going on about Tyene being too white (I’m not sure why anyone is questioning that they made her Ellaria’s daughter in the show), if looking at Pedro and Indira doesn’t convince you, might I suggest reading an article currently featured on yahoo regarding fraternal twins of bi-racial parents, one black and one white, one of whom appears to be entirely white, and one who appears to be black. Hell, my brother and I are a combination of German, Irish, and a couple of American Indian tribes. He has dark hair and light skin, and I have light hair and dark skin. You can tell we’re related if you look closely at our bone structure, and definitely if we smile, but otherwise, not so much. He even got blue eyes, whereas mine are gray, and no one knows how I ended up with gray eyes, since no one on either side of the family, back a few generations, had gray eyes.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Exactly. And Elio and Linda don’t really have the best track record when it comes to discussing race in the show anyways. Most of the time they’re complaining about people not being white…

        Quote  Reply

    135. The Dragon Demands,

      This is exactly Tyrion’s biggest problem anywhere and with most of the nobility. Any of the noble houses in Westeros would avoid or want to execute him for fratricide. He won’t find friends there, well at least not publicly. Dany probably wouldn’t accept him if she knows what he’s done. Vary’s and Sansa will be his only friends, well Pod too. Jaime’s a given. Common folk won’t care one iota, perhaps that’s why Vary’s and he keep among the common folk this upcoming season.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Greenjones,

      I wish fans would stop complaining that an actor needs to be lighter or darker than the brown paper bag they’ve nailed to their fancasting door. They only embarrass themselves.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Sue the Fury,

      That reminds me, one of my pet peeves is people using “refute” instead of “rebut”. Although folks on the internet are fond of using “proves” as well. I suppose with the “death of the author” even George R. R. Martin can’t “prove” anything, though I would tend to grant presumption.

        Quote  Reply

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