Maisie Williams warns of Season 8 divide; Royal Mail makes Game of Thrones stamps!

Maisie Williams Stamps

Today, the Royal Mail of the United Kingdom celebrates the launch of the new Game of Thrones-themed stamps with some of the cast. We bring you the details below the cut!

Also, while promoting her new animated film Early Man (from the creators and in the style of Wallace and Gromit), Maisie Williams spoke with Radio Times. Naturally, the interview was headlined by Williams’ revelation that she’d been chosen as a bridesmaid for her castmate and long-time friend Sophie Turner’s coming wedding, but the actress also spoke of the final season of Game of Thrones and how it may be perceived.

With the fancy trailer above, Royal Mail launches its 15 new Game of Thrones stamps. And that’s not all: some of the cast was there to celebrate the launch, namely Maisie Williams, Lena Headey, Peter Dinklage, Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington, all of whom posed for photos with oversized prints of their respective characters’ stamps:

Lena Headey Stamps

Peter Dinklage Stamps

Emilia Clarke Stamps

Kit Harington Stamps

The remaining featured characters are Sansa Stark, Jaime Lannnister and, honored despite being long dead, Ned Stark, Olenna Tyrell and Tywin Lannister, late giants of their Houses portrayed by acting giants who are very much alive to appreciate this:

Royal Mail Stamps Characters

Four other stamps focus on the creatures: direwolves; dragons; giants; and the Night King and White Walkers. A final stamp features, as it must, the iconic Iron Throne:

Royal Mail Stamps Creatures Iron Throne

Starting today, these fifteen stamps are now available to purchase online here, as well as at 7,000 Post Office branches across the UK, or by calling 03457 641 641.


In other news, as reported by Radio Times, Williams is surprisingly blunt about the fact that, whatever happens in season eight, some people will inevitably be left disappointed:

“It’s either going to be everything that everyone dreamed of or it’s going to be disappointing,” Williams declares. “It depends what side of the fence you sit on because there’s definitely going to be that divide. It depends what people want from the final season. I love it, but you never know.”

That divide is, of course, inevitable. You have only to glance at the comment section of any article concerning the endgame here at Watchers to realize that, whatever Martin and Benioff & Weiss have in mind, some of the fandom will be bitterly disappointed.

There are too many diametrically opposed yet popular hopes for the ending for there to be no disappointment somewhere. Debunked pet theories are (or should be) easy to get over, but some may even feel betrayed by the ending not affirming their firmly held convictions on what Game of Thrones‘ thesis statement is supposed to be. I have seen plenty of people who believe the story can only end in nihilist death and destruction, as I have those who expect a truly happy ending. Both extremes may disregard Martin’s promise of a “bittersweet” ending, but all of us have our rationalizations. The final season may not have aired yet, but in truth this divide Williams speaks of already exists, as it has for many years. The only difference is that, as the final word on the story (at least for a long while), season eight may simply make this division erupt for good.

As for myself? I have my theories and ideas of what this story stands for, but, in the end, what I’m looking for in Game of Thrones most of all (as does Williams, I suspect) is a good story. What’s what I got all these years; so now let’s just see if they stick the landing!

141 responses

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    1. I love Maisie..and i love Arya..I hope she survives at the end and Maisie continues her great career in movies and tv shows..I think the ending might be like the LOTR ending..Magic[Dragons,Ice Zombies,Red Priests ,Gods,Greenseers,Weirwood Trees,FM and etc] is gone and the main characters[Jon,Danny,Jon/Danny kid,Arya,Tyrion and etc]to have to deal with the problems of the simple life..without any magic help around..as all the ordinary people do ..And i dont think there will be an Iron Throne anymore at the end and someone to sit on it ..The Kingdoms might ruled separately by their own lords and ladies not by one ….Sansa/Podrick the North[+Vale],Gendry/Arya Stormlands,Danny/Jon/kid Dragonstone[+what will remain from KL],Yara/Theon the Iron Islands,Tyrion/Missandei Casterly Rock{+the Riverlands]Sam/Gilly the Reach and Bronn/ a new bad pussy Dorne..That will be better for Westeros and will stop the civill wars between the Kingdoms because each will has his place,his lands and his peoples there for his own to rule ..not one king/queen to rule all this continent ..thats not practical to controlled an entire Westeros by one only in first place..And i like those royal stamps..amazing

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    2. I think ending will be more happy than majority expect from GoT. I thought that even before they said anything about S8 and now I’m even more convinced.

      Dany and Jon were learnig to rule since the beginning. It makes no sense that they will just die in the end. What was the point then? The point of Meeren’s arc, of LC’s arc?

      None of them are perfect rulers, but together they are the closest we have to perfection.

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    3. As mentioned elsewhere, braved the winter weather ( well, drizzle ) and stomach cramps to get to the Post Office this morning to get the presentation pack.

      The direwolf one is a beaut, but of course the Arya stamp is the best 😉

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    4. I agree. I just hope it’s a good story. For me, it begins and ends with the story/overall plot. I too have my favorite characters and all that, but as long as the story makes sense and isn’t trying to hit a beat for beat’s sake, then I respect what they’re trying to do. Case and point – Littlefinger being set up and played by Arya and Sansa and his eventual death made perfect sense to me. Having LF fool everyone, yet again, just so he could appear in Season 8 makes so very little sense. The one person who would see through his manipulations would be a Face-Dancer.

      There was (and still is) so much hate for season’s six and seven from the hardcore book-fans and content creators on Youtube (most of which who are also hardcore book fans), that I had to walk away from their temper-tantrum throwing outbursts about the show and its episodes not turning out the exact way they predicted it would.

      From the beginning, the showrunners and George have said the show is not the books. Personally, I love the fact that they’ve moved away from “…But I’m the rightful ruler of Westeros…” and focused more on moving the plot toward its inevitable end. There are only 2 things I’m hopeful for with the last season – (1) That it’s not 6 episodes of political intrigue, and (2) that they spend more than one/two episodes on The war to end all wars. If they reduce… The Great War that they’ve been threatening Westeros with for the last 7 seasons, to one episode, that would be… unfortunate but at the same time I understand them wanting to make nice with book-fans. I just hope the ending is organic and not forced.

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    5. Making the 8,

      Ha! In case you were serious: no chance 😛

      mau: I think ending will be more happy than majority expect from GoT.

      I’d say the ending will probably be happier and tidier than a majority of hardcore fans expect, but not a majority of fans in general, not by a long-shot. Only hardcore fans overthink theories to such an extent that the ending, in their eyes, has to be incredibly complex (i.e. convoluted) and full of grim twists.

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    6. How more news I hear how more I’m convinced that Dannereys will end up on the “villain side”:
      1. Jason Momoa who is most interested in her story, told us that there’s something that people will be shocked about.
      2. I don’t remember who but a week ago (ca) somebody told that the we season 8 will have surprises but at the same time we will see it coming. That comes to me as, a part of the fandom will be surprised (because she’s been show to be the hero of the story) and others will see it coming (people already said it at the end of season 2).
      3. This post. will devide the fans. Dany turning “villaineous” will do this. Jon fans will be happy that Jon can be king. Dany fans will be disapointed because their hero turned villaineous.

      Maybe I’m wrong but that’s what I think. I suspect that everybody that stands with her will turn against her. Jon because he felt obligated (by the northern lords), to seize the throne because of his heritage. They maybe hate Targs but a Targs that’s raised with the northern vallues, and giving the North more power they will take that. I suspect that her advisers will die. Jorah, Missandei and Grey Worm. Probably with the first battle of the season. Tyrion will betray them for Cercei, Varys will choose or Tyrion or Jon. She gets news that Dragons Bay is again in the hands of the Slavers. Everything she worked for failed and she stands alone. She will not be a villain but a fallen Hero.

      Or the dividing is Nissa Nissa kind of plottwist.

      What else will devide the fans:
      1. Too happy or too sad ending.
      2. The White Walkers weren’t that important, they will be defeated in episode 5, and the last episode dedicated towards Cercei or something human.
      3. The ending will be all about fantasy. Every human battle will be stopped in episode 5, and the ending will be all about the White Walkers. Many fans liked the show because of the diversity, many fans dislike fantasy except GoT.
      4. The long dream of some cast members come to fruition in season 8, we will end the show in a musical way with lots of songs. Can’t wait to see Thormund sing for his lovely big woman.

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    7. mau:
      I think ending will be more happy than majority expect from GoT. I thought that even before they said anything about S8 and now I’m even more convinced.

      Dany and Jon were learnig to rule since the beginning. It makes no sense that they will just die in the end. What was the point then? The point of Meeren’s arc, of LC’s arc?

      None of them are perfect rulers, but together they are the closest we have to perfection.

      Good point. Your probably right

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    8. Maisie will succeed at anything she decides to do imo – she is multi-talented and can act/direct/dance…her future is bright. ❤

      I still think that Emilia would be the type of friend who could bring sunshine to your darkest day. She’s just so radiant. 😊

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    9. Just got home and with great excitement opened my new set of stamps and oh, how lovely they are. I also received my ‘dark Sansa’ necklace and oh, how lovely that is too. It’s like Christmas all over again in my house.🎅

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    10. Luka Nieto:

      I’d say the ending will probably be happier and tidier than a majority of hardcore fans expect, but not a majority of fans in general, not by a long-shot. .

      Yeah. It’s hard to see what majority thinks when you have such a vocal minority.

      Results of this the post-season 7 survey are shocking. Almost 30 000 fans have voted and average score for season 7 was 8/10 with 62% of fans puting S7 in their TOP 3.

      64.5% of fans also said that the ‘teleporting’ didn’t bother them.

      I mean these are hardcore fans and you would’ve thought they have a much more negative view on S7, judging by the vocal minority’s comments.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/70x0qt/tv_results_of_the_postseason_7_survey/

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    11. I can’t believe they did the main hero of the series like that! Bran is the Luke Skywalker of Westeros. Shame! Shame! Shame!

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    12. kevin1989,

      I’ll disagree with yours although you make perfect sense. But this is my theory based off of the info you give:

      1. Mamoa comments are about Dany having a child. She has been told she is barren and even stated that to Jon in the Dragonpit last season. So it could be considered a major twist for her to have a baby.

      2. This also is the surprise everyone sees coming. Nobody still believes she won’t have Jon’s kid right?

      3. The event that will divide fandom is the fact that both Jon and Dany will die and never live happily ever after. Their child will be raised to rule by Missandei, Tyrion, and Davos.

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    13. ManderlyPieCompany:
      I can’t believe they did the main hero of the series like that! Bran is the Luke Skywalker of Westeros. Shame! Shame! Shame!

      If by Luke Skywalker you mean abandon everything to live and train in solitude to harness his magic. Finally returning only as a weird, darker, version of how we fondly remembered him

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    14. Just reading the article and I am struck by the likeness of Maisie Williams and Aisling Franciosi. Now, if I was clever I’d put pics on to prove my point🤔

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    15. kevin1989:
      How more news I hear how more I’m convinced that Dannereys will end up on the “villain side”:
      1. Jason Momoa who is most interested in her story, told us that there’s something that people will be shocked about.
      2. I don’t remember who but a week ago (ca) somebody told that the we season 8 will have surprises but at the same time we will see it coming. That comes to me as, a part of the fandom will be surprised (because she’s been show to be the hero of the story) and others will see it coming (people already said it at the end of season 2).
      3. This post. will devide the fans. Dany turning “villaineous” will do this. Jon fans will be happy that Jon can be king. Dany fans will be disapointed because their hero turned villaineous.

      Maybe I’m wrong but that’s what I think. I suspect that everybody that stands with her will turn against her. Jon because he felt obligated (by the northern lords), to seize the throne because of his heritage. They maybe hate Targs but a Targs that’s raised with the northern vallues, and giving the North more power they will take that. I suspect that her advisers will die. Jorah, Missandei and Grey Worm. Probably with the first battle of the season. Tyrion will betray them for Cercei, Varys will choose or Tyrion or Jon. She gets news that Dragons Bay is again in the hands of the Slavers. Everything she worked for failed and she stands alone. She will not be a villain but a fallen Hero.

      Or the dividing is Nissa Nissa kind of plottwist.

      What else will devide the fans:
      1. Too happy or too sad ending.
      2. The White Walkers weren’t that important, they will be defeated in episode 5, and the last episode dedicated towards Cercei or something human.
      3. The ending will be all about fantasy. Every human battle will be stopped in episode 5, and the ending will be all about the White Walkers. Many fans liked the show because of the diversity, many fans dislike fantasy except GoT.
      4. The long dream of some cast members come to fruition in season 8, we will end the show in a musical way with lots of songs. Can’t wait to see Thormund sing for his lovely big woman.

      [1] i dont think there will be other villains..There is no time and space for another one villain ..They had already too much villains[NK,Euron,Cercei,The Mountain,Qyburn and Sansa[on the making for to be Lyssa Arryn no2] [2]Danny has some less flaws ..But I think she now who she founded the real love and its pregnant with Jons child ..will calm down and will want her child with Jon to sit on the Throne [3]Some secrets its better to stay secrets..I think Bran and Sam should not revealing in Jon his parentage from the very beginning ..The first thing that should revealed before that ..is Dannys pregnancy ..so she and Jon to have time to marry for the good of the kid..Jons parentage should to revealed better to the very very end after all the other problems are solved [4]The third batshit crazy thing its not Danny turned villain [thing who the 90% of the fans wish to happens]..but Sansa turned on a complete villain..YES the ”sweet innocent” girl that has suffer a lot[including rape] and has make us to cry with her drama story ..to turn on the dark side [im part of you now..Ramsay] and be psycho as all the psycho peoples[Geoffrey,Cercei,Lyssa and Ramsay] that she has entered in her life..THAT MAKE SENSE.and that will be Sansas death ..She will try to harm Danny and Jon and their baby..and try to kill Danny and the child..due to her psychosis for Jon[similar to Lyssas psychosis with Littlefinger] and Jon in order to protect his new family with Danny will have to send Sansa in the exile or to execute her for treason .The fans will not expect that..for sure. [5] There will be no nissa nissa/AA stuff..The show never hinted about this ..and there is no time and place to have something like that..Also there is no hint about Danny dies as a sacrifice for someone to wield a literal sword..Lightbringer already exist and its Jon Snow with Rhaegar AA and Lyanna Nissa Nissa..Its metaphorical not literal[in the books might be also the same..due to Georges beliefs that myths and religions should tumbled ]..Danny will die physically in childbirth or in old age [6]NK is not the final villain to deal with..It will be Cercei or even worsted..Euron..I think Cercei will killed by Jaime or Arya or even by Euron for to sit his fat ass on the Throne and to take the GC for his own..Euron is worsted than Ramsay/Geoffrey on the books..he wants to be God there ..It will make sense if see him in the end playing the final villain [7]Agree for Tormund survives..he is fun to watch at all and very humoristical guy

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    16. If I’m wrong about how it ends (and I saved an email that I sent to my friend right after I’d finished reading the books and HBO had announced the show) I will get some good-natured abuse, and fun will be had over how dumb I am.

      If I’m right, switch it around. Either way, it’s been a pile of fun and no hard feelings.

      Unless they stick Brienne with Tormund. Then I’ll be pissed.

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    17. Making the 8:
      kevin1989,

      I’ll disagree with yours although you make perfect sense. But this is my theory based off of the info you give:

      1. Mamoa comments are about Dany having a child. She has been told she is barren and even stated that to Jon in the Dragonpit last season. So it could be considered a major twist for her to have a baby.

      2. This also is the surprise everyone sees coming. Nobody still believes she won’t have Jon’s kid right?

      3. The event that will divide fandom is the fact that both Jon and Dany will die and never live happily ever after. Their child will be raised to rule by Missandei, Tyrion, and Davos.

      i agree..I saw his interview in Jimmy Fallon yesterday ..and he hinted this exactly ..Also there arent all believe that Danny/Jon will have a child..Some they forget that or they doesnt like that to happen..but there surely will be Danny/Jon child..the actors confirmed it and Emilia has photographed in Belfast keeping a baby doll during filming ..And i think Jon/Danny will have to share the same fate dying or living..There not will be one dies and the other lives and be King/Queen .that just bitter not sweet..Jon and Danny they had live similar lives,they had make similar choices to rule each one on his post and they will end up share similar fates..Their son will be king at the end and will be their hinted successor on the Throne.

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    18. That divide is, of course, inevitable. You have only to glance at the comment section of any article concerning the endgame here at Watchers to realize that [. . .]”

      Too true Luka, too true. 😂

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    19. Note to the USPS and the Congressional Oversight Committee — Y’all done seriously dropped the ball. Now we are going to have Americans buying, buying I tell you, British stamps!!! Seriously. Didn’t we fight a war over not having that happen. ; )

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    20. Pigeon: Maisie will succeed at anything she decides to do imo – she is multi-talented and can act/direct/dance…her future is bright.

      I had no idea Maisie Williams could direct ! Fantastic ! And yes, her future is most certainly bright indeed ^^

      kevin1989: How more news I hear how more I’m convinced that Dannereys will end up on the “villain side”

      I see where you are coming from but I cannot say I quite agree.

      Daenerys becoming a “villain” is a bit like her turning “Targaryen mad”; had it been in the cards for her, it woud have happened a long time ago. She is neither villainous nor insane; she merely screws up at times. Like any normal human being. Now, given that she has immense power, thanks to her dragons and armies, her mistakes have more obvious and visible consequences than most other people’s errors but they are, in essence, the same types of missteps everyone makes for the same types of reasons : anger, frustration, lack of pragmatism, sentiment, etc.
      So I do not think the question is whether Daenerys is a good person. Insofar as her intentions and heart are 9 times out of 10 in the “right” place, so to speak, she is a good person and will remain so. The conundrum is possibly more focused on whether she is a good ruler and, depending on the answer, whether she should/will rule a country, be it Westeros or any other.

      mau: Dany and Jon were learnig to rule since the beginning. It makes no sense that they will just die in the end. What was the point then? The point of Meeren’s arc, of LC’s arc?

      You are completely right to state that most of Daenerys and Jon’s respective arcs have been about ruling. However, I would add a tiny footnote and say that their arcs were also about the difference between ruling and leading.

      Daenerys and Jon are natural born leaders. They have the je ne sais quoi that makes others want to follow them : they are young, handsome, principled, intelligent, charismatic and so on and so forth. So people, especially those with tragic or at least complex backstories, flock towards them. They are beacons of hope for many; they love leading and they excel at it.
      Nevertheless, there is a distinction between leading and ruling and the transition from the former to the latter is usually when problems start arising for Daenerys and Jon. Not only do they appear to struggle quite a lot when it comes to ruling, they also seem not to enjoy it at all. Daenerys’s dislike for queenship is fairly well established; as for Jon, he was elected Lord Commander in 5.2 and by 5.7 he was leaving Castle Black, he was elected KitN in 6.10 and was out of the North at the end of 7.2… To him, the throne is lava and he cannot get away from it fast enough ! ^^

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    21. I think the season will be somewhat straightforward and on most levels simple from a plot standpoint. They don’t have much time to set up complex story lines and character arcs with so few episodes. And we can surmise that a large proportion of the running time will be spent in actual action/war. Not suggesting there won’t be some twists and reversals but I imagine things will play out in very Us vs. Them ways as the remaining characters struggle to survive against the White Walker onslaught. This simpler ending will be palatable to mass audiences and we can always hope the deeper, more complicated ending will be forthcoming in Martin’s books.

      Even though the overarching plot might be straightforward I believe the main thing that will make this season special is they will inevitably have interesting groupings of characters hunkered down for sieges together and unlikely allies fighting alongside one another with the highest stakes possible. This pressure cooker (for example inside Winterfell under siege) should make for dynamite character moments. I’m just imagining how amazing adding Jaime into the mix with the Starks will be, and that’s just one character.

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    22. Riverhawk2055:
      Artemisia,

      Why a son?I think the Targaryen line would be better served by a Regnant Queen.

      i dont disagree..A daughter Regnant Queen its also fair as a son king..Boy or Girl ..that child will survive and will be there for to be king/queen and the successor of his/her parents in the end.

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    23. I won’t be upset about any ending, whether it’s what I wanted to happen or not, as long as it makes sense and is internally consistent. It wasn’t a major issue when they were supported by source material, but after show-only creations like Arya’s magically healing midriff, Jaime’s floating armor, and Tormund and Beric on the wrong side of a collapsing wall.. I’m not hopeful.

      (I’ll nix the last one if they end up being dead, after all.)

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    24. mau:
      I’m currently rewatching S2 (E6 today) and no matter what book purists say the later seasons are just so much better.

      I have the same feeling (currently halfway through season 4, waiting on somebody with whom I watch the show). Season 1 I enjoyed watching again, season 2 I was watching on my phone a lot, season 3 and 4 I’m very focused on the show. I think that the complain is more because season 4 was so brilliant. Everything after 4 feel bad. Most viewers only watch the show 1 time and they only think, which season was the last peak? oh season 4 after season4 the quality dropped, they only focus on season 4 and not 1 to 3.

      Making the 8,
      About Momoa, you forget one thing he said it will fuck people up (in an emotional horrofic way), and Emilia said clearly, people are not prepared for what’s going to happen. The only episode in the past where cast member said that the fans will not be prepared for that was the Red Wedding. We are all prepared for a baby, we’re not prepared for something bad.
      nr 3 I didn’t think about that one. Maybe Cercei will die in childlabour .

      Artemisia,

      No time? There’s only 10 minutes needed to convert her 100% The guns are hanging. Murdering the Tarly’s, it’s clear the citadel is not fond of Dany, they are powerful in a sense, their word can change a lot of mind. Cercei already spreading lies about her in court, she only needs to manipulate the masses (only need one scene of 2 a 3 minutes), the scene with Varys and Tyrion about her, that scene had one intention: Dany will be good as long as she have advisors, when she lose them she will turn the other side (can happen in a battle no need for extra scenes). What was the point else of that scene and the burning of the Tarly’s. The Northern lords clearly stated they dislike Dany, there was even a scene in season 7 that the lords stated they should choose Sansa instead of Jon. the north will never back her, and they will not back Jon as long as as he’s with her. And why explain Jon’s parenting if Dany and he will be a couple. If they both rule his past doesn’t matter. He could be the king in the north just Ned’s bastards. She could be the targ, becoming King and Queen, his past will not change the outcome, but if she’s the fallen hero of the story then Jon’s past will become major important, because he needs to step in. On thing that make this even more possible is the pacing of the plot in season 7. Episode 6: Jon bend the knee for Dany, he stepped down as King at that moment. Episode 7: Plottwist, not Dany is supose to be Queen, it’s suposed to be Jon. If Dany was suposed to be queen, that would be reversed, first the truth about Jon’s past, than changing it to Jon bending the knee.

      Nissa Nissa can be in the show, Mellisandre stated Dany and Jon have both a role to play, but the roles she kept queit. Why? It could be in and that Mel is keeping that information until the end.

      With Sansa you may have a point, but the guns are more hanging for Dany to be the fallen Hero than for Sansa. Sansa has one gun hanging the Ramsay scene, Dany has multiple guns hanging.

      And about the baby: Yes, I still think they’re having a baby. But I’m not convinced about Dany not ending up as the fallen Hero.

      Still I’m not saying I will dislike it if Dany will end up being the hero. But I watched the show more than 10 times each episode. I know where the guns are hanging, which scenes doesn’t have a meaning now and need to have a meaning in the last season. I understand the route they’re trying to take with season 7 with certain characters. And the more I think about it and see the smaller pieces come together the more I see her turning a fallen Hero.

      And remember one thing: HBO made it official (was in the major newssite of our country) they’re filming multiple endings, yes it’s true, not even the casts knows how it ends. So maybe the baby scene is a ruse, we never know.

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    25. Grayven Reyne: I won’t be upset about any ending, whether it’s what I wanted to happen or not, as long as it makes sense and is internally consistent.

      This is basically how I feel about the ending.

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    26. mau:
      I’m currently rewatching S2 (E6 today) and no matter what book purists say the later seasons are just so much better.

      That really does fall in with the topic of how fans will be split on how it ends. I am in agreement with you though… The show has been great from the beginning imo, and it did follow the books pretty well, but when I watch early episodes now it just seems a bit like they were all just kind of figuring it out. A majority of my favorite episodes for the series have been from S5 and later.

      Luka Nieto: I’d say the ending will probably be happier and tidier than a majority of hardcore fans expect, but not a majority of fans in general, not by a long-shot. Only hardcore fans overthink theories to such an extent that the ending, in their eyes, has to be incredibly complex (i.e. convoluted) and full of grim twists.

      A lot of that is “backed up” with that one simple word too, “bittersweet,” which can be any number of things. Personally though it can end happy, tidy and exactly how I want it to and hope it does and it will be exactly that for me.

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    27. To put in my pennies worth, I don’t give a shit how GoT will end! GRRM has always said the ending will be a bittersweet one and I presume that also applies to the ASOIAF novels if he ever gets around to finishing them 😉

      As far as I’m concerned, we’ve had 7 years of gripping TV entertainment with a final episode to come. There will be those in the fandom that will love (or at least accept it) and others who will hate it and not be so happy… Such is life 😛

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    28. The following endings will piss me off:

      1) A fade to black mystery ending, Sopranos style
      2) An “oh it was just a dream” ending, Dallas style
      3) Darth Vader screaming “Noooooooooooooooooooo”, episode 3 style

      I have a list of endings that will make me happy, but I’m at work currently and can only think about things that piss me off. I’ll come up with some endings I would enjoy later on.

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    29. ACME,

      That’s more what I meant with Villaineous. I don’t mean the’s evil at heart because she isn’t. I just think she will get “betrayed” a lot. Slaversbay being back, Jon choosing the Starks and the North leaving her, her advisors die in battle, Maybe Rheagal will die too, she will be left alone, her grief turn into anger (which she showed a lot, when she’s mad or sad she’s just like me, she acts too fast). But still what I think is that she will turn somehow a little bit villaineous (burning KL for instance) I think after that act Jon will turn her back to the good side. Showing again what Tryion mend to Cercei in 7×07. Cercei will never show her good side, Dany will.

      And why I like this idea is that for me it will be interesting to see how somebody who tried to do everything right, get’s beaten down because people dont understand her good motives. Look at 5×02 with Dany, Look at Tyrion in 2×05, they both tried the best to keep the piece but the common people in KL give him the blame same for Dany in Mereen where the ex-slaves didn’t understand her action.

      And still about time: There’s enough time. Everything is ready to go either way. They could change the whole course of the show with only 10/20 min max.

      But however it turns out, for me it’s all good. The only thing I’m afraid of the fuck up is the White Walker storyline, because it’s a storyline that needs to be balanced the right way. Not to much in the season not too few. The horror aspect is very easily given with them but emotional more difficult, they’re killer machines, not humanlike like cercei.

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    30. Not read the other comments yet but I feel Maisie has it spot on that no matter what the ending there are going to be people very disappointed whilst others will love it. So many of us have invested a lot of time following the story so there is bound to be strong emotions.

      Personally I hope we see the deaths of a few key characters, we see tragedy and triumph in equal measure and all character arcs have a logical conclusion with a few surprises mixed in. From a totally selfish perspective I’d like to see Jon sitting on the iron throne even though he never wanted it, with Dany/Cersei both dying, Arya doing something badass with the Hound, Bran going off into exile and Sam narratting the ending but I doubt I’ll get everything I want.

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    31. Mr Derp:
      The following endings will piss me off:

      1) A fade to black mystery ending, Sopranos style
      2) An “oh it was just a dream” ending, Dallas style
      3) Darth Vader screaming “Noooooooooooooooooooo”, episode 3 style

      I have a list of endings that will make me happy, but I’m at work currently and can only think about things that piss me off.I’ll come up with some endings I would enjoy later on.

      Maybe the Night King turn out to be Rheagar, and the moment Jon almost defeat him he speaks for the first time: Jon I am your father.

      The only ending I’m going to pissed of about is: …. years later.
      too many movies and shows have that ending. And all of them are about that they have children.

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    32. Jon Snowed:
      Not read the other comments yet but I feel Maisie has it spot on that no matter what the ending there are going to be people very disappointed whilst others will love it.So many of us have invested a lot of time following the story so there is bound to be strong emotions.

      Personally I hope we see the deaths of a few key characters, we see tragedy and triumph in equal measure and all character arcs have a logical conclusion with a few surprises mixed in.From a totally selfish perspective I’d like to see Jon sitting on the iron throne even though he never wanted it, with Dany/Cersei both dying, Arya doing something badass with the Hound, Bran going off into exile and Sam narratting the ending but I doubt I’ll get everything I want.

      Jon better will allow his son with Danny to sit on the Throne..Danny cannot die if Jon lives..Or both will die or both will live..They had live similar lives,they had make similar choices to rule each one on his post..and in the end should to have similar fates in the end..dying or living..One to die and the other to live its just bitter not sweet ..Danny as Jon has died once[on that childbirth in S1]and has been resurrected by Mirri via the Dragon Eggs and the fire magic..she and Jon are both fire wights.

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    33. mau:
      I think ending will be more happy than majority expect from GoT. I thought that even before they said anything about S8 and now I’m even more convinced.

      Dany and Jon were learnig to rule since the beginning. It makes no sense that they will just die in the end. What was the point then? The point of Meeren’s arc, of LC’s arc?

      None of them are perfect rulers, but together they are the closest we have to perfection.

      Whilst I agree what you say makes sense did you listen to the latest GameofOwns podcast with Kim Renfro where she was saying that Dany’s death is likely the last big shock? I can’t think what else it would be unless it’s a main characters death or the whole story is through the eye of a blue eyed giant.

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    34. kevin1989: I have the same feeling (currently halfway through season 4, waiting on somebody with whom I watch the show). Season 1 I enjoyed watching again, season 2 I was watching on my phone a lot, season 3 and 4 I’m very focused on the show. I think that the complain is more because season 4 was so brilliant. Everything after 4 feel bad. Most viewers only watch the show 1 time and they only think, which season was the last peak? oh season 4 after season4 the quality dropped, they only focus on season 4 and not 1 to 3.

      Making the 8,
      About Momoa, you forget one thing he said it will fuck people up (in an emotional horrofic way), and Emilia said clearly, people are not prepared for what’s going to happen. The only episode in the past where cast member said that the fans will not be prepared for that was the Red Wedding. We are all prepared for a baby, we’re not prepared for something bad.
      nr 3 I didn’t think about that one. Maybe Cercei will die in childlabour .

      Artemisia,

      No time? There’s only 10 minutes needed to convert her 100% The guns are hanging. Murdering the Tarly’s, it’s clear the citadel is not fond of Dany, they are powerful in a sense, their word can change a lot of mind. Cercei already spreading lies about her in court, she only needs to manipulate the masses (only need one scene of 2 a 3 minutes), the scene with Varys and Tyrion about her, that scene had one intention: Dany will be good as long as she have advisors, when she lose them she will turn the other side (can happen in a battle no need for extra scenes). What was the point else of that scene and the burning of the Tarly’s. The Northern lords clearly stated they dislike Dany, there was even a scene in season 7 that the lords stated they should choose Sansa instead of Jon. the north will never back her, and they will not back Jon as long as as he’s with her. And why explain Jon’s parenting if Dany and he will be a couple. If they both rule his past doesn’t matter. He could be the king in the north just Ned’s bastards. She could be the targ, becoming King and Queen, his past will not change the outcome, but if she’s the fallen hero of the story then Jon’s past will become major important, because he needs to step in. On thing that make this even more possible is the pacing of the plot in season 7. Episode 6: Jon bend the knee for Dany, he stepped down as King at that moment. Episode 7: Plottwist, not Dany is supose to be Queen, it’s suposed to be Jon. If Dany was suposed to be queen, that would be reversed, first the truth about Jon’s past, than changing it to Jon bending the knee.

      Nissa Nissa can be in the show, Mellisandre stated Dany and Jon have both a role to play, but the roles she kept queit. Why? It could be in and that Mel is keeping that information until the end.

      With Sansa you may have a point, but the guns are more hanging for Dany to be the fallen Hero than for Sansa. Sansa has one gun hanging the Ramsay scene, Dany has multiple guns hanging.

      And about the baby: Yes, I still think they’re having a baby. But I’m not convinced about Dany not ending up as the fallen Hero.

      Still I’m not saying I will dislike it if Dany will end up being the hero. But I watched the show more than 10 times each episode. I know where the guns are hanging, which scenes doesn’t have a meaning now and need to have a meaning in the last season. I understand the route they’re trying to take with season 7 with certain characters. And the more I think about it and see the smaller pieces come together the more I see her turning a fallen Hero.

      And remember one thing: HBO made it official (was in the major newssite of our country) they’re filming multiple endings, yes it’s true, not even the casts knows how it ends. So maybe the baby scene is a ruse, we never know.

      Look..you are not bad commenter..you may right..In the books is little bit darker..but in the show that role will taken by Sansa ..Sansa gonna betray Jon..She is an big obstacle on his feet and a spike on his back..If she learns his parentage she will betray him and will want to be Queen in the North for herself ..She is the biggest problem for Jon not Danny..She moody and never states honestly and clearly what she wants..she sometimes is a liar ..Danny will stay pregnant and Jon even and knowing his parentage will reject the throne for her and his son to have it and she will deal with it..The child will solve that problem and they will marry until Jon or Danny or better both dies[he on the battlefield..she on childbirth] ..Danny if be villain make 0 sense because every Danny hater[the 80% of the fans almost ]expects what you expect..she to be a villain or to end up nissa nissa or blah blah blah..thats too cliche and will be complete fan-service i fe be [1 on 1000]..Instead if the ”innocent”Sansa be a villain/traitor that will be a great surprise who nobody expects and will make sense ..I bet my 1$ for this ..Also Danny murdered the Tarlys..but the ”precious”[of all] Sansa murdered thousand innocents and almost let Jon to die in the BOTB because she lied about the Army of the Vale and because she let Ramsay to touch her inappropriately instead to have the courage to give in him a slap on the face in S5..She has always plays double behind the back of everyone that had help her and now she is playing double behind Jons back.

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    35. Riverhawk2055:
      Note to the USPS and the Congressional Oversight Committee — Y’all done seriously dropped the ball.Now we are going to have Americans buying, buying I tell you, British stamps!!!Seriously. Didn’t we fight a war over not having that happen. ; )

      I commented about this a while back under the article about the announcement of the Royal Main stamps: the USPS could have and should have done a joint issue with the UK. Just like it did with Sweden and Greta Garbo stamps, and recently with Canada and “The History of Hockey” stamps.

      And you are SO RIGHT. The USPS and Congress seriously dropped the ball on this one.

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    36. mau,

      Personally I think the idea of both of them living is probably a little too “sweet” for this particular story, but that’s just me. I do agree that the ending will be much happier than some may expect, but unlike so many in the fandom, I don’t need Jon or Dany to survive in order to HAVE a happy ending. I think that kind of “If X dies, we riot!” or “If X dies, that ruins the show because it makes the ending too bitter for ME” fandom mentality is selfish, obsessive, and borderline ridiculous. It’s one thing to love a character. I get it. It’s another thing entirely for someone’s entire opinion of the ending or the show in general to hinge on what happens to any one character. This fandom has way too much of that kind of thinking, especially regarding Jon and Dany.

      Unless they do both live (which I’m not willing to put all of my eggs in the basket for, because I think it’s foolish to think that anyone is 100% safe, regardless of what GRRM wrote in a very old and outdated series pitch to his publisher over 20 years ago), the amount of fan tears and anger would surely break the Internet. Whatever the chances actually are, I think we all should be bracing for that. To deny that it’s even possible for one or both of them to die accomplishes nothing aside from making people even more disappointed if they do.

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    37. Artemisia,

      Need to correct you here. 60/70 procent of the fanbase are dany fans. And I’m not a fan of her, I don’t hate her, I find her interesting, at least in the last season, she showed many layers. And I know a lot of people and nobody suspects her to be the bad guy in the end. I only get to hear, no she save slaves, she’s good, she’s the hero, the only one who suspects her to be a bad guy is a friend of mine who is as hardcore a fan as me, but he’s more, it’s a possibility.
      About fan service: in fact dany dying will not be a fan service but the 180 degrees the opposite, season 7 got the label “fanservice season” because danny get’s things done as the hero of the story. and the villains loses in the end.

      About sansa: Sansa is still not loved by many fans, they still see her as the selfish child from season 1. Her being the villain will not be a plottwist, but I think she will have some sort of bad habbit to do, the only question is where does Arya stand. I think that she will force Jon to choose, Dany or his family and the north, if he choose dany, she will force him with the northern lords to choose them or else they will rebel, at which moment I suspect Bran will reveal the truth which he hope will calm them down.

      About the battle of the vale: D&D the makers of the show clearly stated that sansa was the true hero of the BotB not Jon, that without Sansa the north would have lost against the boltons. The reason she didn’t say anything is because Jon would have refused, she knew it. She did was she had to do to secure their survival. Lie to Jon, by which she could kept the lords of the vale, in which they could win the battle. Remember how Jon almost lost at the beginning because he didn’t listen to Sansa, that Ramsay would lay a trap for him.

      I think GoT is about 180 degrees changes. From hero to fallen hero for Dany, as follower to leader with Jon. As emotional being to 100% non-emotional Bran, Sansa as somebody who is naive to the person who is the least naive in the story. Tyrion and Jaime switching side with cercei, Jaime also with the most hated of the show to the most beloved. Cercei from loving mother to dictator etc.

      People need to think about the time again in season 8: Longer episodes. Fewer storylines (season 5 was around 12 storylines if not more to 2 big storylines now with 1 short (WW Cercei and theon is the small one) the rest are just small scenes that are connecting to one of those 3.

      And you too are not a bad commenter. I liked that we see things differently but still respect the other. I remember in the past that some didn’t have that respect.

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    38. Azor Asshai,

      So true about that “If … dies the show is ruined” mentality. I remember with Lost how some people react. I knew a person who said if Sawyer dies I stop watching. And all I think was what about the other characters you like? you stop if one of the 10 you like dies?

      The only shows I dislike a major character dying are shows with small casts. Like supernatural, I hated it when bobby died, it was just the 3 of them and then 2. But with Got the cast is so big, the amount of characters you like surviving is probably bigger than the ones you like dying.

      And why are they complaining about that, didn’t they watched the RW episode.

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    39. kevin1989:
      Artemisia,

      Need to correct you here. 60/70 procent of the fanbase are dany fans. And I’m not a fan of her, I don’t hate her, I find her interesting, at least in the last season, she showed many layers. And I know a lot of people and nobody suspects her to be the bad guy in the end. I only get to hear, no she save slaves, she’s good, she’s the hero, the only one who suspects her to be a bad guy is a friend of mine who is as hardcore a fan as me, but he’s more, it’s a possibility.
      About fan service: in fact dany dying will not be a fan service but the 180 degrees the opposite, season 7 got the label “fanservice season” because danny get’s things done as the hero of the story. and the villains loses in the end.

      About sansa: Sansa is still not loved by many fans, they still see her as the selfish child from season 1. Her being the villain will not be a plottwist, but I think she will have some sort of bad habbit to do, the only question is where does Arya stand. I think that she will force Jon to choose, Dany or his family and the north, if he choose dany, she will force him with the northern lords to choose them or else they will rebel, at which moment I suspect Bran will reveal the truth which he hope will calm them down.

      About the battle of the vale: D&D the makers of the show clearly stated that sansa was the true hero of the BotB not Jon, that without Sansa the north would have lost against the boltons. The reason she didn’t say anything is because Jon would have refused, she knew it. She did was she had to do to secure their survival. Lie to Jon, by which she could kept the lords of the vale, in which they could win the battle. Remember how Jon almost lost at the beginning because he didn’t listen to Sansa, that Ramsay would lay a trap for him.

      I think GoT is about 180 degrees changes. From hero to fallen hero for Dany, as follower to leader with Jon. As emotional being to 100% non-emotional Bran, Sansa as somebody who is naive to the person who is the least naive in the story. Tyrion and Jaime switching side with cercei, Jaime also with the most hated of the show to the most beloved. Cercei from loving mother to dictator etc.

      People need to think about the time again in season 8: Longer episodes. Fewer storylines (season 5 was around 12 storylines if not more to 2 big storylines now with 1 short (WW Cercei and theon is the small one) the rest are just small scenes that are connecting to one of those 3.

      And you too are not a bad commenter. I liked that we see things differently but still respect the other. I remember in the past that some didn’t have that respect.

      I dont disagree for Sansa at all..but as you think for Danny[your opinion and i dont buy it because its predictable] i think for Sansa ..From a sweet innocent girl being a psycho bitch similar to Cercei and Lissa..Also if Danny has some hints to be villain because she is Targaryen ..that means and Jon [who is coming from the same family]could be end up a villain ..Everyone thinks that he is AA,PTWP,Rightful King and blah blah blah ..but what if he betray all those expectations in the end and end up villain/tyrant/fallen hero..MK Aerys was like Jon in his youth good,heroic,kind,brave but then he grew old and becomes mad ..That will be unexpected and great twist..You should to see and that optical corner..not only to stay in yours ..When you see many optical corners ..then you will see what are the possible outcomes ..if you stay only in your optical corner[what you exactly do]..you cannot see far from your nose

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    40. kevin1989: But still what I think is that she will turn somehow a little bit villaineous (burning KL for instance)

      Surely, burning King’s Landing would be more than “a little bit villainous”; it would be downright genocidal.

      Overall, I believe I see your point and I do like it. However I cannot shake the feeling that the dynamics you are describing is already in motion. That was the point of the Field of Fire 2.0 and the Tarly roast. These events, while understandable from Daenerys’s standpoint, make it possible, legitimate even, for :
      – Tyrion and Varys to doubt their queen’s liberator/force for good narrative;
      – Sam to have a big axe to grind with Daenerys;
      – Jorah, who now owes his life to Sam, to question his loyalty to his khaleesi;
      – Jon, who loves Sam, to be conflicted about Daenerys;
      – the Northern lords and the rest of Westeros’s population to draw parallels between the Targaryen contender and her father.

      The die has been cast : Daenerys has already made the mistake that will come back to haunt her and shake the foundations not only of the legacy she wishes to create in the Seven Kingdoms but also of a few of her most precious relationships. Anything more than that would be, I believe, overkill.
      Of course, it is not to say that nothing else will happen to her : as you mention, she will very probably be betrayed at some point. D&D have done a pretty good job at setting that up, not just with the Tarlys but also with the Missandei/Grey Worm love scene (“you are my weakness” is about as ominous as it gets. If one of them gets captured, who knows what the other one will be willing to do to ensure their safety… Betray their queen, maybe ?)

      Ten Bears: What about The Hound? The Obi-Wan Clegane of the series?

      Isn’t he more of a Han Solo ? Or a Lando Calrissian ? The terrible scoundrel who turns out to be a great guy ? ^^

      Azor Asshai: I think that kind of “If X dies, we riot!” or “If X dies, that ruins the show because it makes the ending too bitter for ME” fandom mentality is selfish, obsessive, and borderline ridiculous.

      Confession time : I feel that way about Davos !

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    41. Black Raven,

      I’m with you there, friend. I’m surprised at how open I am to accepting character deaths for next season (Thanks a lot GRRM). I’m trusting in the fact that D&D will bring it home based on what GRRM has told them so however GoT will end, I’ll accept it. Obviously, I have my hopes, but for the most part I know it will be somewhat canon, and that’s all I care about really.

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    42. Jon Snowed,

      Dany’s death won’t be a shock and neither would be Jon’s. Heroes dying is just as widespread trope as them surving and living happily ever after.
      IMO, the last twist will be ralated to Cersei and her role in the great war. So far, she is playing a role of a useful idiot, but IMO the fandom fails to imagine ho useful for the NK she can really be. In all of the predictions (at least in the ones I’ve seen so far) Cersei is seen only as mere nuisance despite of the fact that we saw her duing unimaginable things again and again. Therefore, it would be more sound to predict that she will cause some MAJOR problem to the protagonist threatening their success in the great war and paving the NK the way to KL. There’s also a possiblity that Cersei will play a sort of Golum in the NK demise – that would be a real WTF twist, wouldn’t it?

      The second big twist may involve Tyrion & Sansa – yes, I think that those two will form a couple or at least a team in a certain opposition to Jon & Dany. I don’t think that any of them will turn into a full scale traitor, but both of them are the type of those background not-heroes which end up pushing the more flamboyant leaders away from power after the turmoil. On the other hand, it’s equally possible that both of them will do something heroic and die in the process (simply because they look too safe). It’s worth to note that although in the beginning Tyrion was set up as a political genius, now he’s failing two seasons in a row and for a good reason: he was good at playing against mediocre and cowardish but still reasonable players, but when it comes to more ruthles (and more “heroic”) people his old-school scheeming and compromising simply doesn’t work. That’s especially true, when in comes to Cersei: Tyrion want’s to save her life, but he completely fails to understand that she won’t compromise or run or surrender under any circumstances. So, there is a possibility that at the end Tyrion will do something heroic to get redemption for his flaws. And something similar may happen with Sansa.

      So, there is a potetial for at least two unexpected twists: Cersei nearly wrecking the great war and/or stealing the well-deserved victory against the NK from Jon&Dany; and Tyrion and/or Sansa doing something heroic out of their usual comfort zone and dying in the process. I also have a feeling that Bran and Arya will also have to pay some uexpectedly bitter price for their superpowers, too. Dany turning into a villain is not happening simply because they have to deal with the established villain Cersei first and that will take at least 5 episodes (based on all what we know so far).

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    43. Carole H:
      Just reading the article and I am struck by the likeness of Maisie Williams and Aisling Franciosi. Now, if I was clever I’d put pics on to prove my point

      Agree – there is a definite likeness (which reflects the books) and I would love it to be referenced in the final season. Perhaps someone at Winterfell could mention Arya looks a lot like her aunt?

      As for the ending, I’ve always interpreted GRRM’s “bittersweet” comment to mean that humanity survives but at a great cost. Everyone will have to deal with the consequences of the war and their actions in it. Sort of like Robert’s Rebellion, at the end of which Ned lived but did so having lost most of his family, and was forced to live with the consequences of the promise he made to his sister.

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    44. Major characters whose mothers died in childbirth: Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister. This is not a coincidence. Somebody is gonna die in childbirth before Season 8 ends.

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    45. I’m rather stunned to hear that some people here genuinely believe that Tyrion has gone over to Cersei’s side. That he could lose faith in Dany is entirely possible, based on her actions; but what leverage does Cersei have over him? Zero. He might betray someone else in favor of Jaime, but never for Cersei, who has been unfailingly cruel to him since he was an infant. Nor is he naive enough ever to conclude that she is bargaining in good faith. We will soon see exactly what subtle game Tyrion is playing, but it won’t be as Cersei’s stooge. He has seen too much.

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    46. Mr Derp:
      The following endings will piss me off:

      1) A fade to black mystery ending, Sopranos style
      2) An “oh it was just a dream” ending, Dallas style
      3) Darth Vader screaming “Noooooooooooooooooooo”, episode 3 style

      I have a list of endings that will make me happy, but I’m at work currently and can only think about things that piss me off.I’ll come up with some endings I would enjoy later on.

      Let’s do this! “Endings that piss me off” vs. “Endings that will make me happy.”

      Right now, the “piss me off” list includes just about anything involving baby dramas, eg “Cersei’s baby gets switched with Dany’s baby. Nobody ever knows. The End.”

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    47. ACME,

      “Isn’t he more of a Han Solo ? Or a Lando Calrissian ? The terrible scoundrel who turns out to be a great guy ? ^^
      ___________
      Yeah. you are right. I just wanted a Sandor stamp. 🐓🐓

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    48. Ten Bears: Let’s do this! “Endings that piss me off” vs. “Endings that will make me happy.”

      I am resigned to the fact that many Good Guys will die. Deaths that would truly piss me off: Arya, Tyrion, Davos, Brienne, Sam. Hoping Sandor, Edd and Theon hang in there as well, but can see dramatic/sacrificial reasons why they might have to bite it.

      I’d be unruffled with both Jon and Dany dying. But I do hope that the Iron Throne won’t even exist anymore at the end. An end of an era seems to be called for, both in terms of sociopolitical structures and of the role of magic.

      As for the bittersweet ending: There are so many possible recipes for that. It seems silly to be wedded to only one possible interpretation. Generally speaking, I think the Good Guys prevail, but at a very great cost, with many wounds left that cannot ever be fully healed (as in LotR).

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    49. I’m surprised no one made a prediction of who is going to survive and who is going to die.

      But we must not forget that Games of Thrones is not only entertaining, it is probably a metaphor about something. I don’t know if the ‘global warming’ metaphor is true, but I do believe there is a metaphor. When you criticize something in the society, it can’t end well otherwise people won’t take the situation seriously. And if it end too badly, people will say it’s too apocalyptic. I believe the ending will be something in the middle. Something truly shocking but with enough hope to still give you a smile.

      So my prediction is the following : the two main protagonist and the two main antagonist will die (Daenarys, Jon, the Night King and Cersei). However, I believe Daenarys and Jon will have a Son (a Son of Ice and Fire). and he will inherit the fight. Also, with the death of the Night King, the white walker would be stopped but definitely still alive. And the ending would feel like “Hey you, my ancestors, We (Jon, Daenarys, Jaime, etc.) sacrificed everything to slow the enemy and give you a chance. We have failed but at least we did something right : we gave ourselves another chance. Don’t blow this chance. As for you who have survived (Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, Sam…), raise them and teach them what they need to learn and the mistakes we made they have to avoid.

      Death prediction:

      Brienne : Ep 2
      Tormund : Ep 2
      Daenarys : Episode 4-5.
      Cersei : Episode 4 (killed by Jaime)
      Jaime : Episode 5 (Heroic death…self-sacrifice)
      Jon : Episode 6 (seriously injuring the Night King)
      Arya : Episode 7 (Killing the Night King to avenge Jon…but surprisingly killed by the future new Night King).

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    50. ACME,

      That’s what I meant not that she become evil at heart. More that the people force her to. Maybe the ending is that she will be the hero for us, but for the people she will be seen as a monster because of stories. Maybe in the end she and Jon decide together it’s bether that she step down and that he will rise to power. Or something but they need to do something with the guns that are hanging.
      And I too have a feeling cercei is going to surprise us. Or even better Jaime. What if the fate of humanity is put again in the hands of Jaime, he needs to kill his sister to save the people.

      This is what I love about got. Is the multiple directions the show can take.

      Firannion,

      The leverage cercei has with Tyrion is her child. As Tyrion said in that scene, he do anything to keep her children safe, except joffrey.

      Firannion,

      Didn’t they already. Jon is sort of undead, you can’t say that’s completely normal. He died because he tried to save people from the ww. Same with bran he lost his humanity, he’s basically Google by now. Arya I don’t know how they can make Arya hurt because she gain her humanity back at the end of season 7. Sansa wanted always to marry, but I don’t think she can trust any one anymore in a relationship. If Jaime kills crrcei you can say that he never will recover from that.

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    51. What I’m very interesting in is when will we see melisandre. I think she will sacrafice herself somehow. The only question is when. My prediction is that she will help Jon and Co escape winterfell and that she use her magic to try and stop weights and white walkers so that starks can escape. At least thats what I hope. Or will she be important at the end battle?

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    52. Ten Bears,

      Yeah, I’m already sick of all the baby talk and it’s not even confirmed yet.

      If this great show comes down to a load of baby-centric melodrama it’ll be a travesty.

      We only just had a perfectly heartrending childbirth-centred emotional gut punch with Jon’s parentage reveal.

      Do we really need another, manufactured in the 6 remaining episodes? Not as far as I’m concerned.

      Neither Cersei’s nor Dany’s (mooted) babies are supposed to exist, according to prophecy. And they had Jon drop that line about prophecies being unreliable.

      But I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a set-up for the old bait and switch.

      Neither will end up having a child. The prophecies will be true. And the knowledge that they’re doomed never to establish a family legacy will feed into the characters’ conclusions – possibly leading them to bow out in a blaze of glory and infamy respectively.

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    53. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:

      Neither will end up having a child. The prophecies will be true. And the knowledge that they’re doomed never to establish a family legacy will feed into the characters’ conclusions – possibly leading them to bow out in a blaze of glory and infamy respectively.

      How does that change anything for Daenerys though? This is something she already believes; whereas Cersei has actually been given hope with her current pregnancy.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:

      Neither Cersei’s nor Dany’s (mooted) babies are supposed to exist, according to prophecy.

      Nothing in Dany’s prophecy actually suggests that she won’t have children, that’s simply the conclusion she reached for whatever reason. The prophecy is about when Drogo will be as he was

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    54. To be completely honest I have absolute faith in D&D to deliver a solid ending. People like to bash them for deviating from the books but that was inevitable from the very beginning. At the end of the day they’ve managed to adapt one of the most beloved medieval tales into a wholesome and enticing series from beginning to now. I believe they were the ONLY two people capable of doing that. So they deserve much credit.

      Hopefully no matter grim or happy, it’ll be an ending many fans can look back on think “the ending wasn’t my preferred ending but it was very suitable for the series”. People want GOT to turn out how they want and it’s never been a series about fan satisfaction and wishes.

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    55. Firannion: I’m rather stunned to hear that some people here genuinely believe that Tyrion has gone over to Cersei’s side. (…) what leverage does Cersei have over him? Zero.

      I do not think he would ever side with Cersei but I do believe he could be fooled by her, under the right circumstances.

      Tyrion has a very soft spot for tragic beauties. They are like catnip to him. Give him a gorgeous woman with a tale of woe and watch him melt to the point of occasional delusion : Tysha, Shae, Sansa, Daenerys… He wants to be their champion, he wants to rescue them.
      Now, one has to wonder why he has such a type and I believe the answer fits in one word : Cersei. His sister is the first woman he ever met, and she happens to be both stunning and thoroughly haunted, broken even by their mother’s death. She is his OG tragic beauty, his kryptonite, his first heartbreak and his first rejection. She is the one he loathes but cannot quite get over. At the Dragonpit, she pretended to give him the opportunity to save her (from herself) and I would not be that surprised if he genuinely took the bait.

      Furthermore, we cannot dismiss that Tyrion feels terribly guilty, both over Tywin’s death and over its unintended consequences namely Myrcella’s murder (he was the one who sent her to Dorne and he later allied with her killers) and Tommen’s demise (I am not certain he knows how that took place). Tyrion deeply cared for his nephews and knows Cersei loved her children. That may have helped her trick him during their encounter. By letting him know she was pregnant, she offered him another nephew to protect to redeem himself.

      I am resigned to the fact that many Good Guys will die. Deaths that would truly piss me off: Arya, Tyrion, Davos, Brienne, Sam. Hoping Sandor, Edd and Theon hang in there as well

      Replace Theon with Meera and that’s pretty much my list as well. Not that I want Theon to die at all but my enjoyment of the character comes, for 90%, from Alfie Allen’s interpretation and if he is given a death scene, he will knock it out of the park so I can take it.

      But I do hope that the Iron Throne won’t even exist anymore at the end.

      The Iron Throne as an object or as a symbol ?
      If it is the object, the Lysa Arryn of chairs, then I agree wholeheartedly. This monstrosity of a seat needs to be melted into oblivion, if for no other reason that it is butt ugly.
      If it is the symbol, namely the political unity of Westeros, I am not entirely sold on the idea. I can see why the dismantlement of the Seven Kingdoms could make sense but I fear it would look like a regression. Also, I feel Robert’s point to Cersei (“Which is the bigger number, five or one ?”) was prophetic, to a degree.

      elnauze: Cersei : Episode 4 (killed by Jaime) (…) Arya : Episode 7 (Killing the Night King to avenge Jon…but surprisingly killed by the future new Night King).

      I doubt Cersei will die so “early” in the season, to be honest, for she is now the sole real villain.
      The Night King is a glorified death machine, at this point. He is neither vicious nor cruel; he is what the Children of the Forest made him. He does what his nature dictates he do. Like a virus. So we, the audience, tend not to feel anything for him, be it positive or negative. His demise will be celebrated, obviously, but it will carry very little emotional weight in and of itself.
      Cersei’s death, on the other hand… Now, that’s the ticket ! I would not be surprised if the writers keep it for (quasi) last.
      As for Arya, she is not dying ! She has to sail west of Westeros to go on adventures, to become what she wanted to be as a child, at long last at peace with the world and herself.

      Ten Bears: Yeah. you are right. I just wanted a Sandor stamp.

      I hear you. He and Bran were unfairly ignored.

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    56. As much as I love Tywin & Olenna, Bran & Brienne deserved stamps over them. Ned is even questionable but he is iconic. Hard to think of someone more worthy than him. Maybe Sam or the Hound.

      As for the ending, I just hope that shitty first leak isn’t true. And I’m sure I’ll come across as a hater, but if Jon, Dany, & Arya die they might as well kill everybody because I’ll be very disappointed in the entire series if we’re stuck with Sansa & Tyrion the last 2 standing. And to clarify that is not how the leak said it will all end. That’s all my conjecture.

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    57. Jay Targ,

      Well, in Dany’s case it could be more for the audience’s benefit. Build their hopes up and then sweep the rug from under them.

      And, in the process, affirm that it’s okay if Daenerys were to, say, die saving Westeros; since that could be the only legacy she leaves.

      Plus, if they were going to bring Jon and Daenerys together romantically for dramatic/narrative purposes, and since it’s what the viewers expected, then it makes sense that they’d address the whole fertility situation, if only to end all doubts.

      I think the last time they addressed it was in a forgettable scene with Daario back in Season 5. Makes sense to broach it again closer to the conclusion.

      And Tyrion did raise the question of a successor this past season, which Daenerys was pretty defensive about, even to the point of accusing Tyrion of conspiring against her.

      A cruel reminder of her own limitations might narrow her focus going into the conclusion.

      Plus, they could contrast hers and Cersei’s reactions to the same situation.

      As I understand it, Mirri Maz Duur’s prophecy in the books implies that she’s barren. And they’ve had Dany come to the same conclusion on the show, even if the prophecy wasn’t identical. Since both the show and the books are supposedly building towards the same conclusion, I would imagine we can assume that ultimately the same conditions apply.

      Regardless, I really hope the conclusion doesn’t revolve around a pair of incest babies. Maybe I’m just trying to rationalise a reason for that not to be the case. But that’s preferable to spending the next 12 months anticipating a conclusion that I really dislike the thought of.

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    58. Aegon the Icedragon,

      Bear in mind that these are Royal Mail stamps. They were unlikely to overlook the likes of Dame Diana Rigg, Sean Bean and Charles Dance in favour of Isaac Hempstead-Wright or Gwendoline Christie.

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    59. Artemisia,

      Ah yes. I’m sure Jon, an adult with leadership experience, will vacate the throne so a 2 day old fetus can sit and govern from it.

      gerdhansel,

      Oh dear. Well I hope Tyrion is going to opt for an epidural when he goes into labor or something.

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    60. ACME,

      “As for Arya, she is not dying ! She has to sail west of Westeros to go on adventures, to become what she wanted to be as a child, at long last at peace with the world and herself.
      ___________________
      I’ll say it again: Arya cannot die, for the simple reason that the value of syndication rights will plummet to $0. Who wants to see a feisty little girl survive the horrors and deprivations she’s faced, only to see her die at the end?

      It’d be like that movie with the unselfish little boy

      “Pay it Forward”, who comes up with an idea from a classroom assignment for people to perform acts of kindness to help strangers on the condition that they in turn perform acts of kindness for others. And then at the end, for no reason, school bullies beat the kid to death.

      .

      I would never rewatch a GoT episode ever again if Arya is a casualty in S8. I love Sandor, but I figure he’s got a date with destiny: he’s going to go out in a blaze of heroic glory, sacrificing himself to save the world. Or just Arya and Sansa. Either one would work.

      I do wish that in S8e1, Lord Glover gets Slynted, or at least has his mouth taped shut.

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    61. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I’m telling ya. Wince in advance.
      Ep4: “Little Brother”: The Craster WWs look to reunite with their baby brother Little Sam; and fulfillment of Valonqar (so?) prophecy is set up with possible candidates Tyrion, Jaime, Euron, Sandor, and – a late entry – Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryen)

      Ep.5: “Battle of the Incest Bastards.”

      Ep6: “The Zygote That Was Promised.”

      (Just kidding)

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    62. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I have resigned myself to the fact that baby drama is coming….I don’t like it either, but it’s been telegraphed so hard with Dany and Jon that that is the only logical conclusion imo. Whether Dany and/or Jon survive or not, there will be an heir.

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    63. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Ten Bears,

      Yeah, I’m already sick of all the baby talk and it’s not even confirmed yet.

      If this great show comes down to a load of baby-centric melodrama it’ll be a travesty.

      We only just had a perfectly heartrending childbirth-centred emotional gut punch with Jon’s parentage reveal.

      Do we really need another, manufactured in the 6 remaining episodes? Not as far as I’m concerned.

      Neither Cersei’s nor Dany’s (mooted) babies are supposed to exist, according to prophecy. And they had Jon drop that line about prophecies being unreliable.

      But I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a set-up for the old bait and switch.

      Neither will end up having a child. The prophecies will be true. And the knowledge that they’re doomed never to establish a family legacy will feed into the characters’ conclusions – possibly leading them to bow out in a blaze of glory and infamy respectively.

      Cerceis prophesy is different from Dannys prophesy..Maggy says to Cercei that she will have only 3 childrens and Robert 20..and then she will die by the hands of the Little brother[Jaime ,Euron or Tyrion]..Instead Dannys prophesy hints that there will be a child ”when he returns you will bear a living child and not before”..meaning that when she coming again to marry someone [her husband return as Jon Snow]she will care his child ..Instead of Cercei baby ..there will be a Danny baby born alive and well for sure..In the HOU she also dreams Rhaego ..her first child who we havent seen his dead body in S1 ..and the baby who Drogo keep in his arms is look like more like the Jon Snow baby [in Tower of Joy vision]than Drogo..So there is nothing that says that Danny cant have a baby ..Jon Snow on the Dragonpit asked her ”how are you sure for what the sorcerer says about you are infertile ?”Dannys infertility is questionable.

      Flayed Potatoes:
      Artemisia,

      Ah yes. I’m sure Jon, an adult with leadership experience, will vacate the throne so a 2 day old fetus can sit and govern from it.

      gerdhansel,

      Oh dear. Well I hope Tyrion is going to opt for an epidural when he goes into labor or something.

      Jon will reject the throne because he will focused on the WW and to his new family..with Danny ..He will understand that the fight for that Iron f”kin chair has to offer nothing only death,hate and pain to the peoples who had sit on it..He along with Danny will destroy the Throne and will break the wheel making each kingdom to ruled by his own lord/lady…He after war if he lives will focused on his child and his wife and will choose to live an ordinary life instead to be king.

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    64. Since they’re doing the GRRM ending, I probably won’t be disappointed, because it is what it is. It’s no longer creative decisions, it’s the story itself.
      And I’ve decided to just go deep into the plot while watching the final season, I won’t criticize the writing(unless we have a crappy reunion between couple of the characters) , I won’t care about who’s directing what or how certain scenes could have been shot better. Because during season 7, I found that watching as a critic takes the joy away, it doesn’t let you immerse yourself in the story.

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    65. Ten Bears,

      To be honest, the only character whose death is gonna crush me is Arya’s. I want her to live and be happy and recover from the tragedies she’s gone through.
      And She went through so much.
      I guess it depends on what point GRRM is trying to make with her, because its not just her, Arya represents the children who go through war and all its horrors.

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    66. I see that Royal Mail has not fixed its atrocious website which prevented me from ordering stamps through them the last time I needed to. No amount of finagling, different browsers, or laughable “customer care” enabled me to check out—kept getting one of two different error messages. I had to turn to ebay. Not sure what I will do this time.

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    67. Stoneheart:
      Ten Bears,

      To be honest, the only character whose death is gonna crush me is Arya’s. I want her to live and be happy and recover from the tragedies she’s gone through.
      And She went through so much.
      I guess it depends on what point GRRM is trying to make with her, because its not just her, Arya represents the children who go through war and all its horrors.

      Yes. All of this. And, can the lone wolf rejoin the pack?

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    68. Kind of amusing to consider that the hardcore haters will have to hold on to their grudge for at least 5 – 10 years if not longer before we see how GRRM ends the books and they can get really splenetic about the show’s ending – just in case it is completely true to GRRMs written story.

      Just think how it will be if GRRM never actually completes it ( for the record I hope he does… )

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    69. Firannion:
      I’m rather stunned to hear that some people here genuinely believe that Tyrion has gone over to Cersei’s side. That he could lose faith in Dany is entirely possible, based on her actions; but what leverage does Cersei have over him? Zero. He might betray someone else in favor of Jaime, but never for Cersei, who has been unfailingly cruel to him since he was an infant. Nor is he naive enough ever to conclude that she is bargaining in good faith. We will soon see exactly what subtle game Tyrion is playing, but it won’t be as Cersei’s stooge. He has seen too much.

      Definitely agree that Tyrion is not going to betray Daenerys for Cersei. As he says to Jaime before going into meet her in The Dragon and the Wolf, this is a woman who has already tried to kill him twice – that he knows of.

      At most, I think he would ensure the safety of her child (should it live past birth, which I doubt will be the case). Tyrion and Joffrey hated each other, but he loved Tommen and Myrcella.

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    70. Fully agree also I don’t see Tyrion backing Cersei, if he leaves Dany then it will be to support Jon but even then I’m not 100% convinced at this stage.

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    71. Good point about the haters, I try to ignore them and it’s one of the reasons I no longer use Westeros.org no matter what happens they’ll criticse and refuse to believe the ending comes from GRRM. Sadly I suspect we will never get the final book now to shut them up.

      Also I am currently watching S1 again the criticisms they label about S7 such as time travel are there also and it’s an exceptionally close adaptation to the book so there just isn’t pleasing some people. * Slight cavaet I believe some criticism of S7 is legitimate however I’m really talking about the out right haters here with my comments.

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    72. Jon Snowed,

      The thing is, 95% of GoT is spectacular; the 5% that’s inconsistent, confusing, ambiguous or otherwise not up to par sticks out like a sore thumb and gets most of the attention, eg “why didn’t Sansa tell Jon about the KotV?” “Why didn’t the writers let the audience in on Arya & Sansa’s discovery of LF’s machinations, instead of saving it for one fist-pump moment of “How do you answer these charges…Lord Baelish?”; “how come when Jon, Gendry, Sandor, Thoros and Beric all got together nobody mentioned or asked about Arya?”; “Really? five-second Benjen ex machina? And two people can ride a horse.”

      I try to keep things in perspective by replaying my favorite moments ~ 25 times, like… “When people ask you what happened here, tell them: The North remembers. Tell them: Winter came for House Frey.”; or Arya’s dagger twirl + dagger flip in S7e4; or Sandor’s repartee with Beric in S7e1.

      Nobody can bat 1.000. I prefer to rewatch the many grand slams to balance out the infrequent strikeout, while reserving the right to whinge now and then.

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    73. Ten Bears,

      This is pretty much my feeling as well. Every good show has had some clunkers, so no one is immune to it. My favorite show used to be the Simpsons, but the quality of that show just hasn’t been the same for nearly 20 years now. Seasons 4-5 of the Sopranos were largely a bore, the last handful of years of South Park hasn’t been as good, season 3 of Outlander was a shell of it’s former self, etc.

      The fact that GoT is still as good as it is after this long really is a testament to the effort and dedication of the cast and crew. I’ve had my issues with the writing for the last couple of seasons, but it’s still a damn good show. Better than just about anyting else on tv.

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    74. ACME,

      Haven’t even considered Grey Worm or Missendei betraying Dany, and though it seems out of character… I could potentially see that happening now. That line, “You are my weakness” is a bit ominous. Everything else these two say about Dany would lead viewers to believe that they never could betray her (especially this past season, they spend quite a bit of time praising her to the KitN). But I definitely could see Grey Worm getting captured by Euron or the GC and Missendei having to make a tough decision.

      Anyway, it probably won’t happen, but I like coming across twists that are plausible that I hadn’t heard before. And this is definitely one of them. Good job, ACME.

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    75. God I’m annoyed with them chalking up every possible criticism to character/theory favoritism. Fact is, there are plenty of arguments to argue poor quality if the story ends up where it seems to be headed.

      I, personally, would be fine with a myriad of potential endings as long as they were believable and relevant. The only thing I can’t be fine with is a cliche fantasy ending where the underdog protagonist either ends up as the undisputed good ruler or sacrifices his life for the greater good, becoming an inspiring legendary figure.

      I mean, you have so many creative options here. Have Jon land the throne (if you must) only for him to become the worst and most hated king the 7Ks have seen in ages.
      Alternatively, have Tyrion and/or Sansa be forced to betray Jonerys, claiming the throne for themselves.
      Hell, have Cersei save the people from the WWs with her madness and fury and be lauded a hero. Maybe even disposing of both Dany and Jon in the process. Bad people don’t necessarily make bad rulers, right? And it’s not like that would even be a happy ending for the antagonist. I’m sure we agree there’s no such thing for Cersei anymore. Whatever happens, she’s miserable and alone.

      See, that’s just three scenarios off the top of my head. Give me literally anything in the spirit of Game of Thrones, just don’t dole out the same moronic fairy tale ending I’ve condescendingly been fed my whole life.

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    76. Jon Snowed,

      Yeah, me also. It been ages since I checked out westeros.org. However, whatever the final outcome will be, I’m sure it won’t go down well with the dynamic duo who run that site? Elio perhaps may accept it but Linda… NEVER 😀

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    77. Mr Derp,

      Actually, I attribute many of the “WTF?”, head-scratching moments to the Butterfly Effect, and in particular, the showrunners” decision to merge show! Sansa into the books! Jeyne Poole WF plot. (Bear with me, and excuse any misstatements of the books’ story lines because I have a general understanding from comments on this site, but I have not read them yet.)

      • It’s my understanding that in the books, Sansa is still hanging out in the Vale. Setting aside the criticism of LF’s “plan” for Sansa to marry into the Boltons and the illogic of Sansa agreeing to marry into the family that slaughtered hers, the show’s decision to “bring” Sansa to Winterfell prematurely, changed the chronology and characters’ geographical locations that had been set up in the books and in Seasons 1-4 of the show.

      On paper, it may have seemed to the writers that they could “tweak” interrelated storylines so that the reconfigured Sansa plot could fit seamlessly into the whole scheme. However, with so many moving parts – different characters in different places at specific times – that premature repositioning of Sansa caused ripple effects: It’s why she couldn’t tell Jon about the KotV (I’ll bet in the books, Sansa will come north with LF without Jon’s knowledge to save the day at the BoB). Trying to “tweak” the storylines back into place is why Jon, in S7e3, inexplicably said “I thought Arya was dead” (I assume that in the books, Brienne doesn’t or hasn’t encountered Arya, and hasn’t rescued Sansa outside WF, and doesn’t or hasn’t conveyed to Sansa that she saw Arya alive; so books! Jon would presume Arya was dead because nobody had seen her alive since Ned’s beheading in S1).

      Unintended consequences of tinkering with the timeline and then trying to twist it back into place is the only explanation I can think of for these “clunky” moments, eg., people not knowing things they should, or professing to be oblivious of things they should be aware of.

      Rewatching these “clunky scenes” and Sansa’s altered story line, I was reminded of a line from the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, in which Guinan (who has sort of a sixth sense) gives a crew member weird looks and ultimately tells her: “You shouldn’t be here.”

      That STNG episode illustrated “the Butterfly Effect”: the Enterprise D’s predecessor (Enterprise C), had been lost and presumed destroyed with all hands twenty years earlier near a Klingon outpost.

      Yet, a time rift opens and the Enterprise C appears, badly damaged. The “present” suddenly changes, subtly in most cases, significantly in others. (Guinan senses something’s wrong, but nobody else does.) Instead of lovable Klingon Lt. Warf on the bridge, there’s Tasha Yar: a character who’d previously died in the “real” timeline. Instead of the Enterprise D being a “ship of peace” with families and children exploring the galaxy, it’s a ship of war fighting for the Federation against The Klingon Empire in a war that has already claimed billions of lives and which the Federation is losing badly.

      Anyway, the point was, the new Entrrprise is able to repair the damage to the old Enterprise, whose captain informed Captain Picard that they had answered a distress call from the Klingon outpost when they came under attack by three Romulan warbirds; the furious exchange of phaser fire that crippled the old Enterprise also opened the time rift.

      Captain Picard tells the old Enterprise’s captain that “one more ship in the here and now” won’t make a difference: The Federation’s getting its ass kicked. Based on Guinan’s intuition that the “real” timeline can and must be restored and over the objections of his officers, Picard decides to send the old Enterprise back into the rift to its “own” time, even though it means certain destruction within seconds from the Romulan warbirds.

      (to be cont.)

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    78. Continued from 1:15 pm above

      So sorry. I didn’t mean to go off on such a long tangent about the STNG episode. My point (if there was one 😣) was that at various times during rewatches of Sansa’s Northern storylines, I could almost hear Guinan’s voice saying “You don’t belong here – yet.”

      I also wanted to emphasize that I’m just observing, not criticizing. I don’t attribute the GoT hiccups to “lazy writing.” I just think it proved to be a virtually insurmountable challenge to detour Sansa into the Jeyne Poole story lines, and then get back on the road without any lingering alterations to the rest of the interrelating characters’ storylines.

      BTW, for anyone who cares, in the STNG episode

      , even though the Enterprise C traveled back to its own time and was destroyed, the “real” timeline was restored and the alternative Federation-Klingon war never happened because the Klingon Empire deemed the Enterprise C’s attempt to defend the Klingon outpost from the Romulans, albeit unsuccessful, to be an honorable act, paving the way for peaceful relations.

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    79. Ten Bears,
      I remember watching that episode the first time and not only thinking Tasha Yar didn’t belong there but it felt really ‘off’ for Denise Crosby to be on the show after so many episodes. 😛

      Not to be overly abbreviated responding to your comments on the subject, but I agree with your feelings and questions regarding it. I’m mildly interested to see how different Sansa’s book story continues after her ballroom dancing at the Eyrie. I actually suspect that it could be vastly different. In my opinion George hasn’t made her all that exciting, and despite some believing she isn’t, I still see her as more of a ‘portal character.’

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    80. To be honest I’m not sure there was too much wrong in principle with altering Sansa’s story to presumably speed up the Vale stuff and giving her Jeyne Poole’s story. The alternative would have been boring (the Vale aspect) and Jeyne Poole would have made zero sense to show only watchers. However the execution wasn’t great and I agree there was a butterfly effect in doing so.

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    81. Re-watched S1 through4, now on S5 – some random thoughts:
      Lord Varys is looking more and more suspect. It seems only the Red Priestesses know his true intentions.
      The warmth and trust between Missandei and Daenerys doesn’t get much time, but is always highly impactful.
      Will the Old Gods punish the Starks for killing a guest under their protection? (TBF, no bread and salt ritual was shown.)
      Bronn will never get his high-born wife nor his castle.
      What’s to stop the Night’s King from flying straight to Winterfell and demolishing it with Wight-Dragonfire?
      Sansa is now Lady of the Dreadfort as well. Then there’s “Sweet Robin” to be dealt with. Queen in the North?
      If all the dragons die, and all magic is gone from the world, will Bran lose the sight?
      Bealish knew about the Boltons.
      Haters be damned, this is the single best television production so far.

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    82. Frankly, I think that by issuing a stamp picturing the Knight King the Royal Post is enabling the true enemy, but hey that’s the Tories for ya!

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    83. Jaehaerys,

      Regarding Missandei and Grey Worm, it’s also worth to note how they looked at Varys while he was explaining his allegencies in Ep 702. It looks like there was a setup for them to stop following her blindly (which they still do) and start making decisions and assessments of their own. There should be some conflict in the future, but I doubt it’s going to turn into a full scale treason. I would rather expect Missandei looking into Dany’s eyes and saying that she is doing wrong, if she does. Dany may take it as treason though.

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    84. 1.- It would not be ironic if Cersei’s baby is Tyrion-like ????
      2.- Dany’s children (triplets, 1 boy & 2 girls) will be the next three-headed dragon

      Just saying

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    85. 3eyes: Will the Old Gods punish the Starks for killing a guest under their protection? (TBF, no bread and salt ritual was shown.)

      Are you referring to Littlefinger? I think the Gods would understand executing a guest who’s guilty of treason against the hosts. Not really the same thing as what happened at the Red Wedding, but please let me know if you are referring to someone else.

      3eyes: What’s to stop the Night’s King from flying straight to Winterfell and demolishing it with Wight-Dragonfire?

      The fact that Dany still has two dragons of her own

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    86. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell Missandei will betray or leave Dany. They’re inseparable at this point. Dany would really have to go off the deep end for that to happen.

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    87. Ten Bears,

      I prefer show Sansa, I skipped her chapters in The Vale after Lysa is dead. Very boring. While in the show I was really interested what was going to happen.

      In the books Arya was seen at Saltpans, near White Harbor. A lot of people had been killed there, that’s why they assumed Arya was dead. But she was on her way to Braavos when the killing happened.

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    88. Chilli,

      Thanks for the info! On the show, people kept saying (eg, Jaime in early S4? and Brienne to Hot Pie in S4e7) that nobody had seen Arya since her father was executed and she was presumed dead. So once Brienne found Arya with Sandor in S4e10 [a show-only interaction?] and then reported this encounter to Sansa after rescuing her from Bolton pursuers in S6e2 [a show-only event?]. there’d be no reason to assume Arya was dead anymore. Rather, as Hot Pie reported, Arya was traveling incognito, dressed as a boy, under an alias.

      This is one of the reasons why I was perplexed that in S7e4?, when Jon got Bran’s ravengram at Dragonstone, Jon said “I thought Arya was dead.” In addition, when Sansa prodded Jon to help her retake WF (in S6e4?), she had told him it was their home, including Arya’s, wherever she was. Nobody was assuming she was dead anymore.

      In fact. once Jon ousted the Boltons in S6e9, if not sooner, I would’ve thought he’d send someone like Davos to re-interview Hot Pie for clues to Arya’s whereabouts, because Brienne had rushed him and only got “the quick version” in S4e7. (See below) After all, Hot Pie had been with Arya continuously from the end of S1 in KL, through mid-S3 when the BwoB traded him to the Crossroads innkeeper. It was because of Hot Pie’s intel that Brienne found Arya to begin with.

      A patient, engaging questioner like Davos would get the full story and not just “the quick version.” He’d ask, eg: “Now tell me, did she make any friends along the way? Someone with whom she might seek refuge?” Somewhere she might go until it was safe to return home?”

      A: “There was this blacksmith apprentice, Gendry…”
      Davos: “I know him. I saved him from a red witch. He’s rowing a boat somewhere. Anyone else?”
      A: “Come to think of it….Yeah. There was this face-changing sexy Jesus guy from Braavos who gave her three free kills and an iron coin for a free trip to visit him at Faceless Man School in Braavos.”

      ———-

      S4e7: Hot Pie + Brienne

      Hot Pie: “You seem like a proper lady. Someone who could be trusted. I never met no Sansa Stark. But I know her sister Arya.”
      Brienne: “No one’s seen Arya Stark since her father was beheaded. She’s presumed dead.”
      Hot Pie: “She weren’t when I last spoke to her.”
      Brienne: “When was that?”
      Hot Pie: “Heading up north with the Night’s Watch. She was all dressed up as a boy. Like your ladyship, only without the armor. Going by the name Arry.”
      Brienne: “So what happened to her?”
      Hot Pie: “Well– ”
      Brienne: “The quick version.”
      Hot Pie: “The Lannisters took us prisoner. We escaped. The Brotherhood took us prisoner. They sold me to the innkeep. They were going to sell Arya to her mother at Riverrun along with another prisoner. Big ugly fellow. Foul mouth and a face like a half-burnt ham. Not friendly.”
      Poderick: “The Hound.”
      Hot Pie: “That’s the one…,.”

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    89. ygritte,
      Thanks 😉

      Jaehaerys: That line, “You are my weakness” is a bit ominous.Everything else these two say about Dany would lead viewers to believe that they never could betray her (especially this past season, they spend quite a bit of time praising her to the KitN)

      You are right; everything they have said in recent years points towards the firmest of allegiances. And I believe this is precisely the point, to be honest.

      Missandei, Grey Worm, Tyrion, Varys, Jorah… They are not really advisors per se; they are believers. They do not think Daenerys is right; they believe she is. It is quite striking that all of them keep on repeating, ad nauseam, that she is going to make Westeros a better place yet none of them has mentioned any concrete way in which she is supposed to achieve that.
      In Essos, she had a policy : the abolition of slavery. In Westeros, she has literally nothing; not the slightest shadow of anything even resembling an agenda. People with as much brains as Varys, Missandei and Tyrion should have been able to spot that for a long time but they have not. Because they have faith. They somehow appear to believe that Daenerys is going to make things “better” (by what criterion, we do not know and neither do they) just by sitting on the throne. That her essential “goodness”, no matter what that is, is going to ooze from her and solve Westeros’s problems.

      Quite accidentally, Jon stumbled upon that truth during his exchange with Missandei :
      Missandei : I serve my queen because I want to serve my queen. Because I believe in her.
      Jon : And if you wanted to sail home to Naath tomorrow?
      Missandei : Then she would give me a ship and wish me good fortune.
      Jon : You believe that?
      Missandei : I know it. All of us who came with her from Essos, we believe in her.

      Missandei, Varys, Grey Worm, Jorah, Tyrion… All believers. Now, there are two problems with that.

      The first is that believers make terrible advisors for advisors are supposed to evaluate a ruler’s decisions, to criticise and “torture” those decisions to ensure that they are sound; however, to believers, criticism is blasphemy so they tend to, at worst, refrain from formulating any unorthodox view or, at best, sugarcoat their opposition not to frustrate or upset the guru. That is what Tyrion did after the Field of Fire : he clearly felt strongly that killing the Tarlys was a disastrous idea but he did not express it forcefully enough; he babied Daenerys not to get her angry. Had he not been a card-holding member of the Mother of Dragons cult, he would have gone straight for the jugular and told her “go ahead, fry them… And enjoy being seen as your father’s daughter, queen of the ashes !”

      The second issue with believers is that reality usually ends up disagreeing with them and, when they are disappointed, they cannot simply brush it off : they get really mad. Daenerys is a good person and she tries her best but she is not a goddess. She is a human being who makes human mistakes and, as such, she cannot live up to the divine standards her disciples fantasise. Therefore, she is bound to disappoint them. But, to them, disappointment can only feel like a betrayal. Case in point : Olly !
      Jon shares his messiah-like magnetism with his aunt : he too attracts lost and desperate people who need to believe in something / someone. Olly was one of his believers. Olly would happily have died and killed for his mentor / personal saviour. Thus, when Jon disappointed him by allowing the Wildlings into Westeros, he did not simply get angry or disillusioned; he felt cheated, betrayed. And that allowed him to betray Jon himself.

      What if Missandei, understandably sick of risking her life in a country she neither knows nor cares for, asked for a ship to return to Naath (as Jon imagined) ? Would Daenerys, at war with the embodiment of Death, agree to lose one of her remaining boats to accommodate just one person ? I doubt it. What if Missandei was put in danger and Grey Worm demanded some troops to go rescue her ? Would Daenerys, in the middle of the Battle for Dawn, allocate ressources to save just one individual ? I hope not !
      What will happen when/if Daenerys disappoints Missandei or Grey Worm ? When she fails to live up to their fantasy of her ?

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    90. Mr Derp: Are you referring to Littlefinger?I think the Gods would understand executing a guest who’s guilty of treason against the hosts.Not really the same thing as what happened at the Red Wedding, but please let me know if you are referring to someone else.

      The fact that Dany still has two dragons of her own

      Mr Derp,

      Mr Derp,

      Originally thinking of the Rat King, but who can predict the decision of gods?

      Mr Derp: Are you referring to Littlefinger?I think the Gods would understand executing a guest who’s guilty of treason against the hosts.Not really the same thing as what happened at the Red Wedding, but please let me know if you are referring to someone else.

      The fact that Dany still has two dragons of her own

      Mr Derp: The fact that Dany still has two dragons of her own

      May the OldGods,the New Gods,and D&D make it so,

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    91. Chilli:
      Ten Bears,

      “I prefer show Sansa, I skipped her chapters in The Vale after Lysa is dead. Very boring. While in the show I was really interested what was going to happen….”

      I’ll make a note to be wary of those boring chapters when I read the books. I’ve already been forewarned about meandering chapters with Tyrion looking at turtles.

      The few snippets of the books I’ve read – because those passages have praised and reproduced so often – have been really well written: Arya’s “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue [translated wordlessly and beautifully to the screen by MW]; the “Broken Man” speech; the prereleased TWOW “Mercy” chapter; and a scene when Arya recognizes “Harwin.” If the writing of the books is anywhere near as good as those portions, I’m sure I’m in for a treat.

      As for Show!Sansa: After that scene in S4e8 when she descended the stairs in her new outfit silhouetted in sunlight and asked/announced confidently to LF, “Shall we go?”, I really thought she’d take charge in S5 and provide lots of rewindworthy moments. I couldn’t imagine that it would not be until S7e7 that the “take charge”, charismatic Sansa from the staircase would finally reappear.

      (But that’s just my perception. I’m aware that many fans prefer “one step forward, two steps back”, fits-and-starts character evolutions.)

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    92. I totally believe it will be Cersei who dies in childbirth. She’ll birth twins, one boy and one girl. Boy born second, therefore it’s the little brother that kills her (from the prophecy). I expect both Dany and Jon to die, the former in childbirth. It’ll be Tyrion who takes the child, betroths their daughter to Cersei’s son and viola, a Lannister is in control again.
      I really only care about The Hound and Davos making it out alive. And Arya. And Yara. Okay, that’s it.

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    93. Ten Bears:

      This is one of the reasons why I was perplexed that in S7e4?, when Jon got Bran’s ravengram at Dragonstone, Jon said “I thought Arya was dead.” In addition, when Sansa prodded Jon to help her retake WF (in S6e4?), she had told himit was their home, including Arya’s, wherever she was. Nobody was assuming she was dead anymore.

      I always attributed Jon’s statement in Eastwatch to two things:

      1) They know Arya survived King’s Landing and was alive when Brienne met her, but that doesn’t guarantee her survival beyond that. Jon likely thought that when she didn’t show up soon after the Battle of the Bastards it meant she’d since died.

      2) Jon’s lost so many people that I don’t think he wanted to get his hopes up.

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    94. ACME:
      The first is that believers make terrible advisors for advisors are supposed to evaluate a ruler’s decisions, to criticise and “torture” those decisions to ensure that they are sound; however, to believers, criticism is blasphemy so they tend to, at worst, refrain from formulating any unorthodox view or, at best, sugarcoat their opposition not to frustrate or upset the guru. That is what Tyrion did after the Field of Fire : he clearly felt strongly that killing the Tarlys was a disastrous idea but he did not express it forcefully enough; he babied Daenerys not to get her angry. Had he not been a card-holding member of the Mother of Dragons cult, he would have gone straight for the jugular and told her “go ahead, fry them… And enjoy being seen as your father’s daughter, queen of the ashes !”

      Tyrion isn’t a “believer”; indeed, any time Dany doesn’t follow his advice, he immediately starts doubting her overall ability to rule.

      And as to “being seen as your father’s daughter”, Cersei literally blew up the holiest place in Westeros and the Pope, her uncle, the queen consort, and various and sundry other nobles, and nobody cares. So for Tyrion to push the idea that executing the Tarlys is some kind of PR problem is pure nonsense.

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    95. Carole H:
      “Just got home and with great excitement opened my new set of stamps and oh, how lovely they are. …….It’s like Christmas all over again in my house.🎅”

      ______________
      I’m across the Atlantic and my stamps should be here any day. I am savoring the anticipation of having the same reaction you did.

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    96. Carole H:
      Just reading the article and I am struck by the likeness of Maisie Williams and Aisling Franciosi….

      You’re so right… And I know I’ve seen side-by-side (“split-screen”) photographs of the actresses online in which their resemblance is striking.

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    97. Ten Bears:
      ACME,

      “As for Arya, she is not dying ! She has to sail west of Westeros to go on adventures, to become what she wanted to be as a child, at long last at peace with the world and herself.
      ___________________I’ll say it again: Arya cannot die, for the simple reason that the value of syndication rights will plummet to $0. Who wants to see a feisty little girl survive the horrors and deprivations she’s faced, only to see her die at the end?

      It’d be like that movie with the unselfish little boy

      .

      I would never rewatch a GoT episode ever again if Arya is a casualty in S8. I love Sandor, but I figure he’s got a date with destiny: he’s going to go out in a blaze of heroic glory, sacrificing himself to save the world. Or just Arya and Sansa. Either one would work.

      I do wish that in S8e1, Lord Glover gets Slynted, or at least has his mouth taped shut.

      Agreed! Arya is not dying. It’s literally the only thing that would infuriate me with the ending. I’m willing to accept pretty much anything else, and I’m willing to accept any ending for Arya as long as she survives (anything from marrying Gendry, sailing West, to returning to the HoB&W completing her transformation into No One). We can’t be left with just 1 true-born Stark alive at the end (Bran is either going to die or be lost in the Weirwood as the Three-Eyed Raven). That’s just too depressing! We need some hope in the end; some good things to happen amidst all the heartbreak.

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    98. Alba Stark,
      Those are my thoughts as well. Jon undoubtedly thought the chances Bran was dead were higher considering the last he’d heard they were heading directly into NK territory. Still, it had been a long time since he’d heard word of Arya, and that word wasn’t assuring. His image of her is still that of a skinny little girl that probably had little chance of protecting herself against real dangers. He doesn’t know yet how resilient and resourceful she is… nor how well she has become at protecting herself, through either fighting or “blending in.”

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    99. Clob: or “blending in.”

      Speaking of that… I wonder if anyone will ever find out that it was Arya that killed Walder and his family. Sansa found his face in her bag but I don’t think she knew who’s it was. Walder’s wife only knows what she looks like and what she said, which didn’t include her name. It could have been a hired assassin by the Starks for all she knows.

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    100. Ten Bears,

      Enharmony1625,
      Agreed and agreed. As my (and many) #1 favorite book and show character, Arya can’t die! George has a purpose for her with everything she’s survived and now training her for. I don’t believe that purpose results in a surprising death or even in heroic fashion. If he doesn’t plan on it then D&D had better not do it. 🙁

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    101. Sean C.: Tyrion isn’t a “believer”;

      Tyrion (6.10) : For what it’s worth, I’ve been a cynic for as long as I can remember. Everyone’s always asking me to believe in things– family, gods, kings, myself. It was often tempting until I saw where belief got people. So I said no, thank you to belief. And yet here I am. I believe in you.
      Tyrion (7.07) : Because I think she will make the world a better place.

      indeed, any time Dany doesn’t follow his advice, he immediately starts doubting her overall ability to rule.

      So far, Daenerys has only explicitly gone against his advice twice : the first was when she roasted the Tarlys because giving people the choice to either obey or die is breaker of chains-friendly; the second was when she, an heirless monarch, went on a suicide mission north of the Wall and lost one of her dragons to the Night King… Both instances are legitimate causes for concern in regards her ability to rule.

      And as to “being seen as your father’s daughter”, Cersei literally blew up the holiest place in Westeros and the Pope, her uncle, the queen consort, and various and sundry other nobles, and nobody cares.

      From what we have seen, Westeros’s nobility never cared one bit for the High Sparrow and the Faith Militants, both for good and bad reasons. So Cersei disposing of them was never going to make the aristocracy mad at her.
      In the process, she did wipe out the Tyrells (among others) and the noblemen of the Reach were willing to rebel against her for it. That is, until the composition of Daenerys’s army was depicted in exquisite detail to them… Rather unsurprisingly, they then decided to side with Cersei instead.

      So for Tyrion to push the idea that executing the Tarlys is some kind of PR problem is pure nonsense.

      I am afraid I disagree.
      Daenerys’s PR problem is not the figment of a pessismist’s imagination : it is inbuilt in her crew. She comes from a bloodline (in)famous for its propensity for madness and violence, her father was a maniac who burnt people alive for a laugh, her Dothraki are known for being raping and pillaging enslavers, her Unsullied are feared as hive-minded killing machines, her dragons are believed to be untamable (and now, one of them works for Team Ice Zombie), her Hand is a patricide imp, her quasi-Hand is a foreign spymaster, her Dornish allies were “princess murderers”, her most senior adviser is a man who fled Westeros after he sold people into slavery, her fleet is made up of renegade Ironborns…

      Jon asserted that people “will come to see (Daenerys) for what (she is)” and he was right. The problem for now is that, “what she is”, to the people she intends to rule, is the above list. That is what the people of Westeros think of when they hear her name. With that kind of inbuilt baggage, she has always had but very little leeway, reputation-wise. And now, she is on record burning alive Westerosi who oppose her takeover. A whole team of PR professionals, working 24/7, would have a hard time framing that in a positive way me thinks.

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    102. Clob,

      “Still, it had been a long time since he’d heard word of Arya, and that word wasn’t assuring.”
      ________________

      I’m not sure what you mean. Even with Brienne’s sanitized version of her encounter with Arya, conveyed to Sansa in S6e2, Jon would’ve learned that Arya was alive and well, she was unhurt, and she “looked good.” She had survived from S1e9 through at least S4e10 (over three years), wisely traveling undercover and incognito.

      If Brienne relayed even the [S4e7] “quick version” of Hot Pie’s travels with Arya, Jon would know Arya had succeeded in surviving through stealth and smarts.

      I am not sure I understand what you mean: What word “wasn’t assuring”?

      Everything he was aware of would be cause for optimism – and further investigation.

      And damn it, if Brienne imparted some of the details of her meeting Arya in S4e10*Jon would know that she’s still got Needle!

      * S4e10 – Brienne greets girl (Arya) practicing swordfighting moves:

      B: “I like your sword. Are we getting close to the Bloody Gate?”
      A: “About 10 more miles.”
      B: “Did you hear that, Podrick? Only 10 more miles to the Bloody Gate.”
      A: “Are you a knight?”
      B: “No.”
      A: “But you know how to use that sword?”
      B: “I do.”
      A: “Does it have a name?”
      B: “Oathkeeper.”
      A: “Mine’s Needle.
      B: Good name.

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    103. Sean C.: Cersei literally blew up the holiest place in Westeros and the Pope, her uncle, the queen consort, and various and sundry other nobles, and nobody cares. So for Tyrion to push the idea that executing the Tarlys is some kind of PR problem is pure nonsense.

      This sums up why I think the whole debate about whether or not Dany should’ve burned the Tarlys is kind of dumb. The small folk of Westeros are prepared to be ruled by someone who committed the atrocity at the Sept of Baelor, but Dany executing traitors by dragonfire is just too much? Yea, I don’t know about that one. It’s not consistent to me at all.

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    104. ACME,

      • I assume you were being saracastic when you wrote: “giving people the choice to either obey or die is breaker of chains-friendly”.

      • I really liked your assessment of Dany’s PR problem.

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    105. Ten Bears,
      Here’s what I am/was thinking…
      I’m sure he had some hope, but even if we didn’t see it, what he could have been told would have been very limited. He wasn’t, but even if he was told everything we know of her travels up to Brienne seeing her I don’t know that he’d be very assured for her safety. However, there were only two short encounters that could be relayed to him, one being secondhand, and neither of them were very detailed.

      Hot Pie only told Brienne that she was taken prisoner by the Lannisters but escaped and the Brotherhood then took her prisoner to sell to her mother, along with capturing the Hound. With everything that had happened Brienne and Pod then just assumed the Brotherhood would take her to the Eyrie. They find Arya with the Hound and get little information from that other than he claimed he was protecting her. Brienne thought she killed the Hound, as she stated when they spoke in KL. So, Arya would have been left alone and unprotected, as Jon would have felt she was protected in some fashion up to that point regardless if it was as a prisoner or not.

      When he finally did get the letter that Arya was home it was before he found the Hound at Eastwatch so at that point his reaction to her being with him would have been similar to Brienne’s. Even so, a lot of time had passed since Brienne had seen her and receiving the letter. She never showed up at Castle Black, the Eyrie (to his knowledge) or any other safe House that would send him a raven about her safety. She just “disappeared.” That in itself would not be very assuring, his hope would diminish and possibly give him the thoughts of her being dead.

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    106. Ten Bears,

      It most likely had been a year or two since Brienne last saw her. A lot could happen in a year, and the chances of Arya’s survival up to that point was 50/50 at best. Besides, up to that point, Arya always had companions to help keep her safe. When Brienne last saw her, she was completely on her own. It’s classic Schrodinger’s cat. To Jon, Arya was both alive and dead.

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    107. ACME,

      Dany’s PR were shit till 706. Now the very least that can be said about her is that she doesn’t leave her people behind even that involves the risk to her most precious assets and that’s something the North will respect withought question. As for Tarlies, I don’t think that anyone will care about them except Sam: Randyl had a habit of flagging the nobility, so the nobility will hardly miss him.

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    108. Mr Derp,

      Were the smallfolk or lords of Westeros prepared to be ruled by Cersei?

      At the start of season 7, four of the Seven Kingdoms (North, Reach, Vale, Dorne) were in rebellion against her rule. Were the war-ravaged Stormlands and Riverlands not leaderless and oppressed respectively, they probably would’ve joined the others in defiance of her rule.

      Then Daenerys Targaryen landed in the Seven Kingdoms at the end of the season premiere and thus the old “battle for hearts and minds” began.

      That’s why Tyrion was advising she take a PR friendly approach to conquest, effectively framing the conquest as a Westerosi rebellion against an illegitimate ruler.

      Meanwhile, Cersei was using the foreign invader and her horde of “savages” as her own propaganda coup.

      The Tarlys’ changing loyalties illustrated the dilemma. Randyll Tarly summed it up pretty clearly before his execution: “There are no easy choices in war. Say what you will about your sister, she was born in Westeros. She’s lived here all her life. You, on the other hand, murdered your own father. Then chose to support a foreign invader. One with no ties to this land. And an army of savages at her back”.

      Daenerys has faced a PR battle since the moment she landed on Dragonstone. And burning men who defy her alive is not going to work in her favour.

      Luckily for her, she’s got a war on the horizon from which she could emerge the saviour of Westeros.

      Unluckily for her, there’s another contender who could also emerge from the war as the saviour of Westeros, who has a potentially stronger claim to the throne than her and whom doesn’t have a reputation for burning people alive.

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    109. Clob:

      Regarding Bran – I definitely agree. As far as Jon was concerned, Bran went north from the Nightfort with Hodor, two teenagers and a direwolf. Jon has been to Hardhome and seen the Army of the Dead. He knows the chance of anyone surviving up there are slim to none. As Sam said in Eastwatch – the Free Folk, the Night’s Watch, none of them made it. Jon knows nothing of Bran’s skillset. To him, Bran was just a crippled child.

      And you are right about Arya – Jon knows nothing of her skills. I imagine him being equally proud and disturbed that the gift he gave her (Needle) was instrumental in her survival.

      Sidebar on Arya & Bran: I hope that if/when Jaime arrives at Winterfell, they both freak him out. I can imagine Bran casually dropping the phrase the things we do for love into the conversation (a bit like when he repeated LF’s chaos is a ladder line back to him). I can also imagine Arya making reference to the feast at the Twins she attended wearing a serving girl’s face.

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    110. Inga,

      I’m afraid that’s surely inaccurate.

      By any standard, Jon and Dany’s excursion beyond The Wall was a spectacular PR disaster.

      Not only was it reckless and against the advice of their advisers, but it specifically led to the Night King getting his hands on a dragon and The Wall being brought down.

      And the aim of the excursion – to bring the Lannisters into the fold – was a failure.

      Neither the Northerners nor the rest of the Westerosi will care that Dany lost one of her dragons. They’re just “beasts”(to quote Jon) to everybody other than Dany.

      Once reports of castles and villages being torched by Viserion start coming in and the refugees start arriving at Winterfell, and Jaime then arrives to tell them that Cersei has double-crossed them, the gravity of Jon and Dany’s miscalculation will be apparent to all.

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    111. Clob:
      Ten Bears,

      “…She never showed up at Castle Black, the Eyrie (to his knowledge) or any other safe House that would send him a raven about her safety.”

      Safety?

      “Safety? Where the f*ck’s that? Her aunt in the Eyrie is dead. Her mother’s dead. Her father’s dead. Her brother’s dead. Winterfell is a pile of rubble. There is no safety, you dumb bitch.”

      Sandor Clegane, educating Brienne of Tarth, in S4e10
      ___

      Sorry Clob. I couldn’t resist quoting Sandor.

      Also…I would think after Rickon’s experience with House Umber, Jon would be pretty naive to rely on the concept of safe houses. Rather, he should’ve been comforted by the news that Arya was concealing her identity and was suspicious of strangers wanting to take custody of her, by claiming they were sent by her family.

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    112. Ten Bears,
      Well, the whole point is he did not know. Whether or not one of the former or current Stark banner houses was actually ‘safe’ or not, there was no word from anywhere. As far as Jon knew the Vale was still led by their cousin, or in friendlier hands at least. Again, all he really had was hope… and I don’t think it’s very comforting to believe a little girl running around by herself in war torn country is safe, even if she doesn’t tell anyone who she is. She’d already be dead most likely without the assistance she had, such as her run in with Rorge.

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    113. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      The miscalcullation was neither Jon’s nor Dany’s: it was Tyrion’s. And who can deny that his clever plan was all about getting Jon killed because the deamon monkey was jealous of his growing influence? Jon acted as a fool, but a honorable fool, and so did Dany, but Tyrion, that deamon monkey, used their best intentions to set them up, to undermine the rebellous North, and to save his dearest sister. One can even guess that his whole trial and escape to Essos were ochestrted to help him win Dany’s trust so he could undermine her endevours from within – at least that’s what he was doing recently. Any generous advisor (Yara or say Lord Glover or Lord Royce:)) would have adviced her to incinerate the KL or at least the Red Keep ASAP an be done with it: war is war, better them than us, etc. Whereas Tyrion fed good-hearted Dany and Jon with all that bullshit just to promote Cersei’s victory. So, someone, please, fetch Jon a block!
      On a serious note Tyrion really has to address his conflict of interest, because his bias is really affecting his decisions.

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    114. Alba Stark:

      I hope that if/when Jaime arrives at Winterfell, they both freak him out.I can imagine Bran casually dropping the phrase the things we do for love into the conversation (a bit like when he repeated LF’s chaos is a ladder line back to him).

      Seems more likely to me that by the time Jaime meets Bran, he will feel genuine shame about pushing him out the window, but figure that forgiveness is too much to hope for. And Bran will respond that it was his destiny to become the Three-Eyed Raven, so don’t sweat it.

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    115. It’s funny. Uncle Benjen goes missing in The Land of Always Zombies in S1 and Jon never gives up on him. His supposedly beloved little sister Arya is seen unhurt, alive and well but undercover after three years. then goes back under the radar at a time when there’s nothing in the north but “war, and ice and pirates” -and Boltons, …and Jon gives up on her and writes her off as dead?

      At no time did he even seem curious about her whereabouts, or make any effort to find her. (Had he even mentioned her name once since that heartfelt “I’m going to miss you” in S1e2?) It does not compute.

      I would have thought that before Ramsay Bolton’s fingers had made their way through his dogs’ alimentary canals in S6e9, Jon would have dispatched a squad of investigators to the Crossroads Inn to chat with Hot Pie. Within ten minutes, they would know where Arya had likely “disappeared” to after Brainiac Brienne showed up with a Lannister gold sword; tried to abduct her; and threw her guardian over a cliff.

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    116. Firannion: “….Bran will respond that it was his destiny to become the Three-Eyed Raven, so don’t sweat it.”

      Exactly. Just like it was always Wylis’s destiny to get his brain fried and become Hodor.

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    117. Ten Bears,

      I’m not the sort of person to compare book and show, but in the books they were constantly thinking about each other, the things Jon did to get her back.., I really wish they had shown some of that not just the blank I thought she was dead statement.

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    118. Ten Bears,

      That other perspective of Brienne’s attempt to rescue Arya is pure gold. “… after Brainiac Brienne showed up with a Lannister gold sword; tried to abduct her; and threw her guardian over a cliff.” This has me absolutely dying.

      It’s just hilarious to think of it like this as viewers because we know her true intentions and the situation of her “guardian.” It totally makes sense though for Arya and Sandor to see it through this perspective. Too them, Brienne seems like… and I’m taking a page out of Sandor’s book here, but a complete “c**t”. Spot on description of the timeless Brienne vs. The Hound encounter.

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    119. Stoneheart,

      Totally agree. They obviously can’t show thoughts in the show, and I think every time Arya gets brought up in Jon chapters is just because he is thinking about her, but they could’ve brought this idea through the show at some point. Even to just have Jon talk to Sam early on at Castle Black would’ve given us enough to know that Jon still cared and thought about his sister. Kind of like what Jon did with Ygritte before the Battle at the Wall, by confiding in Sam and talking about their love. They just give us way less emotional character development between Jon and Arya that I wish was there. Arya might mention him at some point along her travels (I don’t really remember if she does or not), but the books stress their loving relationship so much and it is really great. Just wish the show could’ve followed suit somehow.

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    120. Jaehaerys,

      On the show, it’s all one-sided: Arya thinks about Jon and tries to get back to him, while Jon…well, he’s never mentioned her or tried to look for her, even after finding out she was alive. (Excerpts to follow in a bit.)

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    121. Jaehaerys,

      About my portrayal (“Brainiac Brienne showed up with a Lannister gold sword; tried to abduct her; and threw her guardian over a cliff”), this is how Brienne presented herself to Arya, and how Brienne later charscterized the encounter to Sansa:

      S4e10 (Excerpt – Arya refuses to go with Brienne; elects to stay with Sandor)*

      ***
      Brienne: “Seven blessings. I’m Brienne of Tarth. This is Podrick Payne.”
      Sandor: “You want something?”
      Pod (to Brienne) “That’s Sandor Clegane. The Hound.”
      (Based on Hot Pie’s intel, Brienne now realizes the girl she’s just met is Arya.)
      Brienne (stunned): “You’re Arya Stark.”
      Sandor: “I asked if you wanted something.”
      Brienne: “I swore to your mother I would bring you home to her.”
      Arya: “My mother’s dead.”
      Brienne: “I know. I wish I could have been there to protect her.”
      Arya (suspiciously): “You’re not a northerner.”
      Brienne: “No, but I swore a sacred vow to protect her.”
      Arya (displeased): “Why didn’t you?”
      Brienne: “She commanded me to bring Jaime Lannister back to King’s Landing.”
      Sandor: “You’re paid by the Lannisters. You’re here for the bounty on me.”
      Brienne: “I’m not paid by the Lannisters.”
      Sandor: “No? Fancy sword you’ve got there. Where’d you get it? I’ve been looking at Lannister gold all my life. Go on, Brienne of F*cking Tarth. Tell me that’s not Lannister gold.”
      Brienne: “Jaime Lannister gave me this sword.”
      Arya (angrier): “The Bloody Gate is 10 miles.”
      Brienne: “I swore to your mother by the old gods-”
      Arya: “I don’t care what you swore!”
      Brirnne: “Arya!”
      Sandor: “You heard the girl! She’s not coming with you.”
      Brienne: “She is.”
      Sandor: “You’re not a good listener.
      That Valyrian steel? I always wanted some Valyrian steel.”
      Brienne: “Come with me, Arya. I’ll take you to safety.”
      Sandor: “Safety? Where the f*ck’s that? Her aunt in the Eyrie is dead. Her mother’s dead. Her father’s dead. Her brother’s dead. Winterfell is a pile of rubble. There is no safety, you dumb bitch. You don’t know that by now, you’re the wrong one to watch over her.”
      Brienne (sarcastically) “And that’s what you’re doing? Watching over her?”
      Sandor (earnestly): “Aye, that’s what I’m doing.”

      ———

      S6e2: Brienne tells Sansa about encountering Arya

      Brienne: “I saw her with a man. I don’t think he hurt her. She didn’t want to leave him, he didn’t want to leave her.”
      Sansa: “You don’t know which way she went?”
      Brienne: “I spent three days looking for her. She disappeared.”
      Sansa: “How did she look?”
      Brienne: “She looked good. She wasn’t exactly dressed like a lady.”
      Sansa (grinning): “No, she wouldn’t be.”

      _————

      * Note: Arya had every reason to be suspicious of a stranger showing up with Lannister connections. Remember the last time that happened? Meryn F*cking Trant and Lannister men showed up during her class with Syrio, and announced: “Arya Stark, come with us. Your father wants to see you.”
      Brienne effectively said the same thing (“Arya Stark, come with me. Your mother charged me with taking you to safety.”) And like Meryn F. Trant vs. Syrio, Brienne then forcibly tried to take custody of Arya and attacked her protector.

      From Arya’s perspective, how is Brienne of F*cking Tarth any different from Meryn F*cking Trant? (And geez, they both have the same middle name.)

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    122. Stoneheart,

      Here’s what I meant by “one-sided”: on the show, Arya thinks about Jon, sometimes via Needle, but Jon hasn’t mentioned her since telling her “I’m going to miss you” in S1e2:

      Arya & Jon

      S2e1 Jon & Arya

      ***
      Jon: “l have something for you. And it has to be packed very carefully.”
      Arya (eyes light up): “A present!”
      Jon: “Close the door….This is no toy. Be careful you don’t cut yourself.”
      Arya: “lt’s so skinny.”
      Jon: “So are you. l had the blacksmith make it for you special. lt won’t hack a man’s head off, but it can poke him full of holes if you’re quick enough.”
      Arya: “l can be quick.”
      Jon: “You’ll have to work at it every day. How does it feel? Do you like the balance?”
      Arya: “l think so.”
      (Jon gently draws her close)
      Jon: “First lesson – stick them with the pointy end.”
      Arya: “l know which end to use.”
      Jon (looking into her eyes): “l’m going to miss you.”
      (Arya, still holding Needle, looks up at Jon and with arms wide is about to embrace him)
      Jon: “Careful.”
      (Arya carefully places Needle on the table, and then…. leaps into his arms)
      Jon (hugging Arya): “All the best swords have names, you know.”
      Arya: “Sansa can keep her sewing needles. l’ve got a needle of my own.”
      (Jon, closing his eyes, hugs her tighter)

      ______________________________
      S4e1, Arya and Sandor

      Arya: “….Polliver stole my sword and put it right through his [Lommy’s] neck…He’s still got it.”
      Sandor: “Got what?”
      Arya: “My sword, Needle.”
      Sandor (derisively): “Needle. Of course you named your sword.”
      Arya: “Lots of people name their swords.”
      Sandor: “Lots of cunts.”
      (Arya starts marching to entrance of the inn)
      Sandor: “What are you– get back here!”
      Arya: “My brother gave me that sword.”
      Sandor: “Get back here!”
      *****
      ________________________________
      S4e10, Arya at seaport

      Arya: “I want to see the captain.”
      Captain. “You’re seeing him.”
      Arya: “I want to go north to the Wall.”
      Captain: “No, you don’t.”
      Arya: “I can pay.”
      Captain: “There is nothing in the North but ice and war and pirates.”
      Arya: “I wouldn’t need a cabin…Please! I could work scrubbing the floors.”
      Captain: “I’m not going north, child. I’m going home.”
      Arya: “Where’s home?”
      Captain: “The Free City of Braavos.”
      Arya: “Wait. I have something else…”
      ________________________________

      S5e3 – On Braavos dock

      Faceless Man acolyte Arya tosses all of “Arya Stark’s things” into the water but can’t bear to part with Needle, and while holding it in her hands, starts sobbing … because, according to her internal monologue in the books:

      “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me ‘little sister,’ she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.”
      _________________________________
      S7e2

      Hot Pie: “I thought you’d be headed for Winterfell.”
      Arya: “Why would I go there? The Boltons have it.”
      Hot Pie: “No. The Boltons are dead.”
      (Arya stops eating; drops her food.)
      Arya: “What?”
      Hot Pie: “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”
      Arya (incredulously): “You’re lying.”
      Hot Pie: “Why would I lie about that? He’s your brother, right?”
      (Arya gets up to leave; heads to WF instead of KL)

      _________________________
      S7e4 Arya & Sansa in WF crypts

      Arya: “It suits you: ‘Lady Stark.’ … Jon left you in charge?”
      Sansa: “He did. I hope he comes back soon. I remember how happy he was to see me. When he sees you, his heart will probably stop.”
      _________________

      S7e5 (Jon with Dany on Dragonstone. Jon reads raven scroll from Bran):

      Jon: “I thought Arya was dead. I thought Bran was dead.”*

      ——————
      *
      S6e2: Brienne told Sansa about encountering Arya in S4e10; “she looked good.”

      S6e4, Sansa to Jon (No suggestion either thought Arya was “dead”):

      Sansa: “Winterfell is our home. It’s ours and Arya’s and Bran’s and Rickon’s, wherever they are. It belongs to our family. We have to fight for it.”

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    123. Stoneheart,

      (Clarifying longer commment “awaiting moderation”)

      I merely want any Jon-Arya reunion to have the appropriate emotional setup. Their sentimental farewell in S1e2 was such a long time ago…

        Quote  Reply

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