[Updated!] Location filming in Northern Ireland begins for Game of Thrones season 6!

Location filming in Northern Ireland for Game of Thrones season 6 has begun in Magilligan, based on some new photos surfacing online.

We reported last week that the show would be returning to the town in N.I. for shooting this year, after filming scenes there in season 5 most notably involving Emilia Clarke in the finale.

The filming up in Magilligan looks to be a relatively small affair at the moment. 

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It’s difficult to make much out from this distance, but we’ll keep you posted on new images and info as they emerge!

Update: There’s also activity again in Binevenagh Forest today. The person who saw it noted there was security around the location, keeping people away.

UPDATE #2: Another tweet confirms what we have suspected: Emilia Clarke has been sighted around Northern Ireland filming today! Given that there’s only one unit out and about, most likely this is the shooting happening in Magilligan.

266 responses

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    1. Dear Sue and other Admins,

      I, along many others, have stopped going to many websites regarding Game of Thrones news and now only follow WOTW.

      I’d like to request and I’d really appreciate it, that once spoiler material starts surfacing, can we maintain the spoiler warning messages (ie spoiler below the cut), and can you please also not use a picture and/or headline that might allude to what’s in the article.

      For example “Littlefinger spotted in Winterfell”, “Melisandre spotted in King’s Landing”, or “Jamie spotted on Hodor’s Back”.

      Also can we not assume that everyone in the world has heard about the spoiler three weeks after and then proceed to write an article titled “More pictures of Jamie on Hodor’s back”.

      I know you guys don’t do this, and I really appreciate that, and I want you all to know that there’s many of us that appreciate what you guys are posting, and how you post it too.

      Would be great if you can rank the spoilers perhaps, with big red Spoiler Alerts for big spoilers such as last season’s Tyrion Double at the Fighting Pit with Danaerys, or Littlefinger spotted in King’s Landing, or Meryn Trant spotted in Bravos, or Jamie in Dorne. Those are massive spoilers that should heed their own special super warnings.

      Regards, Mustafa.

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    2. Yay to filming.. Lets doooooooo this.

      Mustafa. S.,

      I agree… I visit this site every day, and maybe I don’t want to know all the details of filming. A part of me also does not want to know if Kit is spotted here and there and on set in costume (a part of me does also lol!) But with Kit, I think it is inevitable everywhere on the internet.

      Anyway, I like the idea of keeping the headline to something like “Filming here and there” or “More filming updates” without mentioning cast/characters in the headline/preview and a forewarning that there are spoilers below the cut!

      Edit: I wasn’t here during the offseason before season 5 as I wasn’t aware about the move… so I don’t know if filming and casting news was hidden till under the cut… so I apologize in advance if it was being done before! 🙂

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    3. Someone on horseback (proably a Dothraki) and other people on the ground that look to be wearing Dothraki costumes. Interesting, it may not look like much but at this time I’m grateful for every piece of new information. I need season 6 so bad.

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    4. Yet still no casting news!

      Missed the boat on the last thread but are they still looking for the Northern Lord with the bear-like description? Strange they’re not using the Greatjon in the role as Mantle made him very memorable! Unless they have other plans for him.
      In the books, The Smalljon was killed at the Red Wedding but as he’s not been introduced in the show it could work although not sure why they don’t seem to be going for Mors Umber.
      Could be hard to cast. Personally, I’d look to the world of Strongmen again and one guys sticks out in particular especially when they say “bear of a man”. Britain’s Strongest Man, Eddie Hall. He has an incredibly distinctive look and has a ton of charisma. He’s about 6’3 which isn’t gigantic but with Clive Mantle being 6’5 his Smalljon nickname would make sense but also the irony of the name will be more pronounced because of how huge he is! Being from Stoke then his accent would sound suitably northern enough for the majority of viewers. Will keep my fingers crossed as I think he’d be perfect! Lo and behold!

      Anyway, back on topic!

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    5. Mustafa. S.,

      I’m curious as to what content would qualify as truly spoiler free on a site dedicated to a show during the offseason? During the season there can be reviews, of course. But what else is there, besides shipping hopes or fanfic? (Which this site doesn’t provide anyway.) And why does somebody who wants no spoilers whatsoever come to such a site in the offseason?

      It seems to me that spoilers is mostly what this site is about, in the expansive definition of spoiler that so many here seem to adopt (anything in the books following film events, anything in the books even before film events, any information on filming,… even anything in the officially released episode previews!). If anything, non-spoiler content is in the minority. Perhaps the site could have a special feed, as a tab at the top level, which collects truly spoiler-free content, as controlled by a tag or category. Spoilerphobes could choose to frequent that only. The rest could view the inclusive feed without spoiler-tagging guidelines that become increasingly absurd and limiting.

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    6. ehhhhhh not to sound like a republican candidate for the presidency, but at some point you have to take personal responsibility where spoilers are concerned. The headlines and cuts here are already handled delicately enough to where anybody who really doesn’t want spoilers (and only wants to read about who won the Monopoly giveaway I guess???) can navigate around them with reasonable ease. I guess I just don’t understand the concern, because if you’d rather not know any behind-the-scenes scoops, then why feel compelled to visit a GoT news site during filming in the first place?

      The reason I am being so contrary about this is because I am personally very much NOT on-board with the idea of petitioning the mods/contributors to plaster every article with a multi-colored terror alert system. When I think of WotW, I think of something that is visible, attractively simple in its design, and highly functional, much like the Wall itself. Thus, adding “extra” spoiler tags to the WotW style sheet is the equivalent of spraypainting “Kill Tha Masterz” across the Wall.

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    7. I’m with harma on the spoiler tagging. I think this site does a fabulous job just as is and nothing additional is needed. As far as keeping oneself spoiler free, it requires you to engage in self-help. And if you want to be truly Unsullied, look at nothing until the seasons starts.

      On the other hand, totally disagree with Lucius. There needs to be snow, even of the fake variety, if it’s Ramsay hunting Sansa.

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    8. Mustafa. S.,

      Concur entirely. Remember how bummed I was when pictures of Arya/Meryn Trant surfaced last summer, then the pic of Tyrion/Dany at Daznak Pit (those had nothing to do with this site – they just appeared on the internet). Stuff like this is fine, but once actors start showing up in spy photos, I think spoiler warnings are in order.

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    9. Rygar:
      Oh look a ring!!!

      LMAO at that comment!

      I am in agreement with the others above, no need for big spoiler markings (unless I think it’s something completely insane like photos of a cast favourite filming their death scene or something) because if you don’t want any spoilers whatsoever you shouldn’t really be visiting the site at this time of year…

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    10. HotPinkLipstick,

      harma dogememe,

      Sorry, I would have to disagree with you. I would still like to visit the site and read opinion pieces and for example, Oz’s looking forward articles.
      As I mentioned in my comment, I don’t know how this site handles filming news with photos and such, as I wasn’t here during last off-season.. but I have read that people got spoilt knowing that Tyrion would end up with Daeny…that is something I probably would not like to be spoilt about, but yet I want to be able to visit the site to read all kinds of other news and opinion pieces, for the site awards and etc.
      Again, my comment stemmed from the fact that I am not sure how filming/set photos and news are posted BEFORE the cut.

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    11. There is always the issue of personal responsibility with these filming posts- you can assume they will contain spoiler content, which is why we try to keep anything actually spoiler-ish below cuts.

      That’s how we’ve always done it, even at the old site. Occasionally there are slip-ups, because people have different opinions about whether or not something is a spoiler and we can’t put 100% of an article below a cut. We can’t post an article that says “There was a sighting of a certain actor at a site in a certain country,” with zero content whatsoever. That would be absurd. But at the end of the day, yeah- don’t click a read-more on a filming article if you aren’t ready to be spoiled.

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    12. Sue the Fury,

      Okay, that’s what I thought, minimal information before the cut. that’s all I was referring to. I wasn’t referring to big red letters saying spoiler content etc…
      Just like this article, I used my professional judgment and thought that it doesn’t seem like there is much juice (cast sightings etc) below the cut, so I clicked on it.

      Thanks for the clarification.

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    13. LOL @ Rygar!

      The whole spoilers debate is tiresome. Now that we can no longer spoil (much) book info, I really think it’s up to individuals to not actively search or read articles about filming locations, casting, etc. There is simply too much criteria for what people will think of as ‘spoilers’, and for everyone else to try and mind read and dance around topics is unrealistic. I get notifications when there are new posts here, and if the title implies something I don’t want to get info on, it’s easy enough not to click on it. This site does a fantastic job at respecting non book readers desire not to be spoiled, but trying to filter all show related news would be a monumental task.

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    14. Pigeon,

      I have clarified myself.

      You’re lucky, how do you get those notifications, I have tried several times and it doesn’t work for me!!!!!

      ___

      To me it seems like this is where Daeny left off last year.
      But I always thought everywhere in Essos was HOT and SUNNY
      Not gloomy like this!

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    15. I love spoilers and that’s what I want. It’s why I come here. How can you be an über fan if you want to avoid spoilers? It’s like having your cake and eating it too. Or wanting to eat junk food but also wanting to stay in shape. You can’t expect other people to be responsible for your decisions. If you want info you need to be prepared that you may get more than you’re looking for.
      This whole spoiler aversion is getting ridiculous. Do people stop liking stories/characters just because they know the plot?

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    16. Lucius,

      Ramsey hunting Theon and Sansa

      Definitely a hunt of some kind as their are four dogs/animals present. Is that a body in the foreground pincushion’d with arrows?

      …and now for the rest of the year, the onslaught begins…

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    17. Ashara Dayne,

      No I don’t think it’s ridiculous
      I have every right to not want to be spoilt and I’m not saying I would click on an article that has filming news in the title and then cry about being spoilt
      I was just making sure that the headlines for filming don’t include spoiler or pictures this way I can chose not to click on it.

      And no it doesn’t make me like the character or plot less, but I like the element of surprise.
      And I’d like to be able to visit the site and take part in predictions and awards and etc.

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    18. I have deduced from those photos that GoT will take a HUGE time-jump before next season and that this scene involves powered equipment and tents and such. Maybe a branch of the Citadel is filming something? Maybe something about the care of horses in the vicinity of dragons? Kind of has that look to it.

      🙂

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    19. I am in the “take responsibility for what you decide to click on” crowd. I was spoiled last season with the Jon Snow photo and it really made me angry. THAT SAID….why did I click on a link that said “spoiler”? I have to own what I did. I am here to enjoy the whole spectrum of news and amusement that WotW decide to give to us. As Oliver Twist said “more please”. This isn’t cradle school where people have to be hand held through topics.

      As Pigeon said above…..for the most of us, it is all spoiler stuff at this point as the books are caught up to the show or the other way around. I KNOW there are still some issues from books that weren’t brought to conclusion on the show. I have to think they aren’t going in the same direction. Or D & D thought the information wasn’t pertinent to the storyline THEY are telling.

      Bottom line. Keep doing that thing you do here, I have no complaints except for what I said above….MORE PLEASE. 🙂

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    20. Shane Snow,

      I wish! 😛

      Sure I’ve only posted it once before (although there was a period where some of my posts weren’t going up in a certain thread). Repeated it here as the topic was dead in the appropriate one! Just think he’d be a very good choice!

      On the spoiler topic, I think if you come to a site like this you have to expect there to be discussion about filming/casting ,etc. The specific spoilers about books are always covered but anything else, and not meaning to sound harsh, you may want to stop visiting to avoid. Without news on casting and filming then the site would struggle for content!

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    21. JCDavis,

      TheTouchOfFrost,

      Things are being taken out of context kind of. I don’t think anyone said don’t post spoilery stuff. I think mine and some others commented that there be a forewarning to spoilers regarding filming and such. If something said spoiler I wouldn’t click on it if I didn’t want to be spoilt. Sue clarified that all and anything that could be considered spoiler to the logical person would be under the cut. That’s all I wanted! 😀

      JC, what were you spoilt with? what photo during filming?

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    22. Deesensfan: Not gloomy like this!

      Presumably it gets gloomier in the winter, if only to make it a “rainy season.”

      Regarding “spoilers,” well, at this point it’s all just “hints,” isn’t it? And fans probably make Melissandre look almost flawless when it comes to interpreting the hints in the flames….

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    23. Wimsey,

      Interesting, didn’t think of it that way.
      Do we know where she is in that scene? I wouldn’t mind seeing it on a map.

      And yeah, they are hints usually… but if you see two characters together who werent together for example (Mel and Jon), it could be a big hint. 😛

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    24. Deesensfan,

      Again, I think a bit of self-editing is required. See something that’s about filming and avoid it but again, I think just avoiding the site altogether for a couple of months would be your best bet as there will be a lot of it. Not entirely sure how learning where and who is filing is really going to spoil anything anyway.

      Wimsey,

      I’d give it 5 posts before someone yells “BOOK PURIST!”.

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    25. Deesensfan,

      1. I don’t think that things are being taken out of context. I think that people are just giving their 2 cents on the subject of “spoilerage”. That is one thing I find hard about the internet, is not being able to see facial expressions or hear tone of voice. Unless someone specifically names me at a post, I don’t take it too personally…..which takes met to…

      2. It was the finale of Season 5…. 🙁

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    26. I’m sorry. You’re all wrong. The proper response to everything is “Cleganebowl Confirmed! #GetHype!”

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    27. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Of course self editing is required, and that is what I will use, I will click on articles at my own discretion. And skip the ones I think may have something i dont want to see. Again, I only wanted to make sure that the bulk of the information is kept beyond the cut. C’est tout.

      Not entirely sure how learning where and who is filing is really going to spoil anything anyway.

      So seeing pictures of Tyrion and Daeny and co in what looks like Daznak’s Pit wouldn’t have ruined the Daeny and Tyrion meeting? I think it would have. This didn’t happen to me but some have mentioned that! But then again, these people clicked on articles that were probably labeled to be filming and set photos. I wouldn’t click on that! Maybe some people don’t mind knowing things before hand… so it wouldn’t seem like a spoiler to some. Everyone has different opinions!

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    28. JCDavis,

      Of course everyone can freely give their two cents 🙂 I just don’t think anyone asked the moderators/admin to NOT post spoiler info… it was just asking to label spoilers as such!

      Oh no… what photo did you see? did you get spoilt during the season or was this before the season started 🙁

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    29. I love the spoilers, makes the anticipation even better when it looks like the spoiler scene is coming up, to see if I interpreted it right. When I binge read all the books between seasons 4 & 5, I wished I’d read them sooner so that I’d gotten a better understanding of what was going on. Sometimes I got lost with all the plethora of characters and plots and how they related to each other. Wish I’d found this wonderful site sooner!!

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    30. Deesensfan,

      I know you said you haven’t been around before during the off-season. If you have the time, you could always go back into the archives from the off-season last year to see how things were handled. When a spoiler was involved, it always said “spoilers below the cut,” and you had to click on the rest of the article to get to the spoilers. Every once-in-a-while, it would say something like “huge spoilers below the cut,” when the spoilers were, well, huge. The headline, picture, and before the cut text would hint at what was contained in the article, but you had to click on the rest of the article to get to the real spoilery stuff. Again, though, I’d just click on a few months worth of articles from the off-season last year, and that way I could see for myself.

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    31. Mustafa. S.,

      If you click “cast sightings spoilers below the cut” I think you are asking to get spoiled (and that includes new photos of old cast sightings). Its not fair to the mods to ask them to create separate posts for new photos of old cast sightings. Way too much work and the site will get cluttered. I would avoid clicking below the cut if you have spoiler fears

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    32. In regards to someone saying there would be snow on the ground if Ramsay was chasing Sansa – I remember in one of the CGI posts they showed a green landscape as a “before” pic, then showed the snow being put in. So this might very well be a chase scene in the North.

      I’m so amazed by what can be done by the special effects. To see the façade of that lovely, 2-story building in Bravos turned into the multi-storied imposing Iron Bank, or sleeping dragons in the grass or Ghost appearing out of nowhere to save Sam, just leaves me awe-struck.

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    33. HotPinkLipstick:
      I’m sorry. You’re all wrong. The proper response to everything is “Cleganebowl Confirmed! #GetHype!”

      TRUE DAT!

      I needed to get hype… cuz the number of people who seem to be supporting the “color coded anti-spoiler system where you have to enter a captcha and fax in a waiver to unlock any information about the filming of Game of Thrones (on a website dedicated to news about Game of Thrones)” movement is depressing the hell out of me.

      I don’t even get where this is coming from… when has WotW ever “spoiled” anything above the cut, or in a headline much less?

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    34. Harma Dogememe,

      Geez, I think you are overreacting about the person who suggested color coding and such. No big deal, it was just a suggestion by him.

      And as I said a million times in my posts… I wasn’t sure how cast sightings and filming news were reported before the cut. I just wanted to make sure, whats the big deal? I didn’t think to look up how it was done in the past as “Nymeria Warrior Queen” thoughtfully suggested I do.

      I have made it clear multiple times this website is good in protecting its fandom from spoilery… regarding actual events (so book knowledge etc). I just wanted to make sure that off season reports of spotting two characters filming was also done carefuly. That’s it that’s all. No need to get depressed.

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    35. Don’t know if I was clear above, but I was nicely saying the spoiler complaints are largely silly. And this site does have to be editorial. You can’t totally bury the lede; titles and featured images are meant to be enticing. There has to be something alerting people to actual content, not a bunch of articles with the same spoiler free titles, and without pictures. Sue et al. seem, if anything, to be overly sensitive to spoilers, not the other way around. That is, I think you can trust them and say that if you feel spoiled and not of your own volition, you shouldn’t be coming. This site is something like 75% about what would be called by one person or another a spoiler. If you don’t want to know anything about the show before it airs, then you have no business on a fan site. Lovely though you are.

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    36. M,

      Merei will most likely simply go to another brothel in KG, judging by #alwaysnaked. It’s not like Littlefinger’s was the only one in the entire capital. 😉

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    37. Off-Topic Otto,

      Was this comment meant for me? Lol
      If it was, you’ve misunderstood me
      And of course I have much business coming to a fan site even though I DONT want to know what happens on the show before it airs
      I come for other stuff.
      Anywho. I DO trust this site, was just wondering how it works when posting filming news

      I listened to nymeria warrior queens suggestion and look through last years filming and it seems that I should be fine being able to pick and chose what I want to read without knowing too much!

      I love this place! Don’t change a thing!

      Edit: YAY Daeny!!’

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    38. OMG! YUUUUUSSSS! MY HOPES BECAME TRUE!!!! God…i need dany pics now! Also, lets not forget the green screens i need these pics too!

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    39. Looks like Daario Naharis on horseback. Just Daario. And his black clothing. No skin coloured shirts for Jorah the Explorer (shoutout to Ozzy Man). Also shoutout to blue screen.

      My guess is the Dothraki have already whipped Dany away from there, and this is probably an Episode 2 scene. Episode 1 most likely showing Dany where she is now (probably just filmed in a different area of the forest but made to look like shes miles ahead of where she left off), and Daario and Jorah travelling TO there, not there yet. By episode 2 they’ll possibly arrive there, and that blue thing, I suspect is Drogon. Not sure if they part ways to look for her or something, but it looks like it’s just Daario. Maybe surprise Mormont death? Maybe greyscale has been discovered by Naharis?

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    40. Cathair,

      Actually, if you zoom in on the first photo, you can make out a figure near one of the umbrellas, who looks like Jorah, about to place a tiny circular object on his finger.

      In the second photo, he has disappeared entirely, however the figure in black on the horse is clearly an enraged ringwraith.

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    41. Deesensfan:
      Cathair,

      Does anyone know where daeny is? What the area is called in westeros? I want to see it on a map!

      She’s not in Westeros, any Dany scenes from S1 to now have been in Essos, when Drogon carried her away from Daznak’s Pit, he took her “North”, that’s all we know, so she’s maybe near the Dothraki Sea.

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    42. Cathair,

      Woops
      I meant essos… Lol
      I just wanted to emphasize I was asking about her location in the show and not filming

      Okay so maybe somewhere near the dothraki sea then. I want her to head to westeros soon!!!!

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    43. “There is no spoilers because there is no ending to this story!!!! ….It’s all speculative at this point…. It’s exciting to see them filming.. We still don’t know what the scenes are???? If you don’t want to know,don’t visit WotW til next season.. this blog is not catering to you… It’s for the majority of sullied.. unsullied who enjoy every nibble of information we can get our hands on, so we can theorize!!!That what makes this enjoyable.. exchanging theories… period………!!!

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    44. The Seven The Smith: “There is no spoilers because there is no ending to this story!!!! ….It’s all speculative at this point….

      Not really. It’s true that the story is much more open now, but there’re still things from the books that are likely enough to happen in some form that naming them would be a spoiler.

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    45. Deesensfan: Okay so maybe somewhere near the dothraki sea then. I want her to head to westeros soon!!!!

      Well, the casting calls in Spain talked about a large amount of horses. Maybe that will be a Westeros location for Dany and her dothraki army. I think it was in one of the desserts, so it could be Dorne?
      I mean, we’re running out of seasons and Dany has to get to Westeros at some point. LOL.

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    46. Abyss,

      I give you that this is my take. I haven’t read ASoIaF, and before I visited blogs, or read history about characters on ASoIaF wiki, GOT wiki, asoiaf university, etc..l had no idea what was going to happen. Not counting The Red Wedding.. when Joffrey was poison at the beginning of S3.. I was floored!!!!! I didn’t see it coming…. but unsullied did…… book readers knew that was going to happen. Why would that be different now? To a certain extent at this point in the show, unless D & D does the unexpected, which they often do, will we ever truly be surprised

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    47. Abyss: Not really. It’s true that the story is much more open now, but there’re still things from the books that are likely enough to happen in some form that naming them would be a spoiler.

      I have given this some thought. It was my understanding that Season 5 was to cover the last two books. And while it is truth that there were things in the last book that were not covered in Season 5, I am thinking that D & D are just going a different way with the story arcs and felt what was left wasn’t needed to get to the final Season 7. I am Sullied and there are a few things that I hope we do still see…but most of it? *shrugs*

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    48. JCDavis,

      Well I’m not a casual viewer and just downloaded the first book , but I enjoy finding out about storylines..,characters..and theories about this fascinating show. So I guess I’m unsullied . I’m strongly beginning to feel they know how G.R.R.M books will end and their working with source material

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    49. I agree with you. This is what the majority of offseason content will cover on WotW. Filming locations with pictures, actor spottings, leaked scripts, and rumors galore. Enjoy or avoid at your own risk. I choose to enjoy.

      The Seven The Smith:
      “There is no spoilers because there is no ending to this story!!!! ….It’s all speculative at this point…. It’s exciting to see them filming.. We still don’t know what the scenes are???? If you don’t want to know,don’t visit WotW til next season.. this blog is not catering to you… It’s for the majority of sullied.. unsullied who enjoy every nibble of information we can get our hands on, so we can theorize!!!That what makes this enjoyable.. exchanging theories… period………!!!

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    50. JCDavis,

      I prefer the term ‘literature masturbater’.

      Deesensfan,

      I’m afraid that’s the risk you run discussing the show on websites dedicated to it. If you want to keep away from all spoilers then the only certain way of doing it is not engaging with sites like this one. Would knowing about that one scene really have spoilt the whole season? I mean, speaking from the viewpoint of someone who read all the books after Season 1: I knew the general jist of what was going to happen but still thoroughly enjoyed the show. Think people can get a little too precious about these things.

      Wimsey,

      Became what I hate. Gonna be a summer of self-loathing.

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    51. Deesensfan,

      Don’t take my (or anyone’s) comments so personally. I wasn’t aiming them at you or anyone here particularly. I’ve read far too many discussions elsewhere which get ridiculous. One person on one site was asking questions about characters and was pointed to the ASOIAF wiki, but refused to read it due to ‘spoilers’.
      Sorry if you thought I was having a dig at you; I wasn’t.

      I just think that, in general, you can’t have it both ways. Either you want detail, in which case you accept that you might be ‘spoilt’, or you’re happy to be left in the dark.

      There was a study done on various literature which proves that knowing a plot doesn’t ruin the reading of a story, in many ways it enhances it. Any story with surprises can only surprise once, the first time. It doesn’t mean that the story is then worthless once you know the plot.
      I enjoyed LOTR movies even though I’d read the books (fortunately for me it had been 20 years so I’d forgotten the details). Knowing the major deaths didn’t spoil it for me.

      Frankly I think the only real ‘spoilers’ are unexpected deaths. At this point we’re so used to it that I doubt anything would surprise us much any more.
      I can think of dozens of different ways the story might go from here, but they’re all either predictable and dull and obvious or unbelievable and ridiculous. I really hope GRRM can pull off an appropriately emotionally satisfying conclusion and I, for one, would be happy to know what that is tomorrow. At this point, I’ll be pleasantly surprised if anything surprises me!

      And this site seems to cater very well for the unsullied. There are ppl here to moderate, unlike YouTube or news article comments.

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    52. Ashara Dayne,

      I agree with you. I am here at my own risk, the only thing I was trying to ask was whether some caution was taken in posting news about filming and stuff. That is all. For some reason people are taking my comments like I was saying filming news shouldn’t be posted at all. Where that came from, I don’t know lol. I’m not silly enough to expect a fan site to not post filming news on the show.
      I don’t know how many more times I can explain it.

      Everyone has different preferences on how they enjoy a story/show. I know coming here I will find things out.. Like they’re casting someone named Euron. I chose to read that. But if I want to chose not read an article that has filming stills I will choose not to. I’m not complaining that these things are posted here I just wanted clarification on how.

      🙂
      Thanks for clarifying what you meant
      And as I said, I agree, this is the best GOT fan site!

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    53. JCDavis,

      As I said, the story is much more open now,

      but I’m sure for example because of the fact that Euron is/will be cast that we’ll see some parts of that story in the books in the show, and because of that naming them all would be a potential spoiler.

      – And of course that’s what we know now, and filming has just started. Over time we will get more information and will be able to see more clearly what’s new and what isn’t. In short: I’m sure we will see stuff in the show that is from published material in some way and I’m also sure that in same cases people here will have a pretty good idea what it will be before we see the first episode of season 6.

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    54. Oooh…. shiny new spoilers! 😀 Or are they? I love the smell of brand-new spoilers in the long, long, lean season between episodes. So… do we have Jorah and Daario chancing on the ring? The One Ring? I am sure they will also film the Dothraki and Daenerys in the same location: continuation from Mother’s Mercy is too good to pass up.

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    55. I love spoilers and it helps me survive the off season. I eagerly await any and all possible clues of what is to come! These pictures are most likely a continuation of last season’s Dany storyline. Smiling to see they are filming. I am easy to please.

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    56. Abyss,
      Ok, I haven’t been on a GOT blogs. So I’m not sure I know what spoilers are, you just blacked out something I wouldn’t give a second thought to posting???? Is this blog for open discussion?

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    57. JCDavis: And while it is truth that there were things in the last book that were not covered in Season 5, I am thinking that D & D are just going a different way with the story arcs and felt what was left wasn’t needed to get to the final Season 7.

      I think that this is a pretty accurate assessment. Basically, if it’s not integral to the story, then B&W jettison it: and what’s going to be integral to both the over-arching story and to the story in any given season as this point is the “Big 6”: Tyrion, Jon, Daeny, Arya, Sansa and Bran. All of them are protagonists since the first book and at this point they represent over 75% of the narrative among the surviving characters that we could legitimately call protagonists. Now, Bran got the season off, but there wasn’t much that they could show for him that would have fed a “kill the boy, let the man be born” story. And on the other hand, B&W heavily modified the arcs of two minor protagonists (Theon & Brienne) to make a story for Sansa (who has only three Crows/Dragons chapters that are basically inconsequential).

      These characters all will (almost certainly) be central to the final outcome (whatever that is), and the way that all six of these characters have evolved over the prior ~7 seasons is basically going to be the Story of Ice & Fire.

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    58. Abyss,

      I doubt that we will get the “backstory” on the character you spoiler-out. After all, he’s barely present in the narrative, yet it looks like he might have some impact on the plot of Winter. If he can be relevant to the Winter plot with next to zero prior development in the books, then he certainly can do it on TV.

      At any rate, the only point to

      the Kingsmoot in the books was to show Asha try and fail spectacularly to “kill the Girl and let the Woman be born.” Other than that, it was really just gratuitous world-building.

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    59. Wimsey,

      You might be right there, but I consider eveything about book stuff a spoiler. I might not be sure yet what the story line of this character is in the show (could be that I’ll never be), but I am sure it will involve parts from the books, or more to the point, the show version of these parts of the books.

      The Seven The Smith,

      Sure it is, I just was always of the opinion that adding one spoiler bar to many is better than the one to few. People who are not afraid of spoilers can simple hit the “show spoilers!” thingy at the top of the comments. 🙂

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    60. Basically, if it’s not integral to the story, then B&W jettison it: and what’s going to be integral to both the over-arching story and to the story in any given season as this point is the “Big 6″: Tyrion, Jon, Daeny, Arya, Sansa and Bran.

      Though I’m pretty sure their Tier 1 actors are: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime.

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    61. On a completely unrelated note. Tom Bateman appears to be channeling Iwan Rheon in the new Jekyll and Hyde show coming on over here soon!

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    62. Deesensfan,

      No, she does not become a protagonist until Crows, so, she is not even in the Top 10. (Also, I will be very surprised if Cersei is at all relevant in the end.)

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    63. kit_hepburn,

      They did boost Cersei to a protagonist at least a story earlier than GRRM did. However, although Cersei’s contribution to the story as B&W have told it, she has not been one of the top 6 contributors to the story. That is a slightly different statement, but an important difference to consider!

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    64. kit_hepburn,

      I disagree, Cersei Jaime Mother of Dragons Tyrion and Jon are totally expendable in that order. It’s clear D&D care nothing for the tier of the actor. Jon, Bran, Sansa are the end to this story, everything points to The North, whitewalkers battle at The Wall included. Cersei, the Lannisters are on their way out, they could be exciled, beheaded at any point next season, Tryion is in Meereen, who knows what will happen to his character, and Dany, who I believe will not rule Westeros imo

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    65. I’m not saying they are relevant to the end story. I just mean that I’m pretty sure they are the show’s top five billed actors, according to the contracts. I do think Cersei is on her way out, possibly at the end of this season, but I also think it’s possible that they drag the stories out with all five of them involved until Season 7. I know there are other characters (The Starks) likely to be *technically* more important to the endgame.

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    66. The Seven The Smith: Tryion is in Meereen, who knows what will happen to his character, and Dany, who I believe will not rule Westeros imo

      Daeny is the #1a Protagonist of the story, tied with Jon. Tyrion is #3. These three will be the most important at the climax.

      Think of characters as vectors. The larger story that all 5 or 6 stories will tell is going to be summarized by the parallels that exist in the difference between these vectors: that is, whatever there is in common between Thrones Jon -> Spring Jon, Thrones Daeny -> Spring Daeny, Thrones Tyrion -> Spring Tyrion, etc. Now, the three surviving Stark kids are next on that list: but delta Jon, delta Daeny & delta Tyrion all are more important and will be more important when they unravel whatever internal conflicts the Walkers, R’hllor and who-knows-what-else induces once the Big Six (and we) learn what this all means.

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    67. If this article is The Dothraki filming location, I wonder when we see Dany again, is she reuniting with them for her army, or will she have to marry another Dothraki Khal.. They don’t like water, how will she get them to sail??? I know they will be part of a battle, G.R.R.M. said they would be back in a big way!!

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    68. Deesensfan:
      Ashara Dayne,

      I agree with you. I am here at my own risk, the only thing I was trying to ask was whether some caution was taken in posting news about filming and stuff. That is all. For some reason people are taking my comments like I was saying filming news shouldn’t be posted at all. Where that came from, I don’t know lol. I’m not silly enough to expect a fan site to not post filming news on the show.I don’t know how many more times I can explain it.

      Everyone has different preferences on how they enjoy a story/show. I know coming here I will find things out.. Like they’re casting someone named Euron. I chose to read that. But if I want to chose not read an article that has filming stills I will choose not to. I’m not complaining that these things are posted here I just wanted clarification on how.

      Thanks for clarifying what you meant
      And as I said, I agree, this is the best GOT fan site!

      You don’t need to explain it any more times.
      I think I just overdid visiting the various websites devoted to this. My son does the same for Star Wars and gets into heated discussions. It’s nice to find somewhere that won’t tolerate flaming and abuse but let’s you speak your mind too, that isn’t just a place to bitch & whine about D&D’s adaptation. I think this place has a perfect balance.

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    69. There’s something about Cersei and Jaime’s original sin which got the whole party rolling with, “the things I do for love”, that makes their presence in the finale just seem inevitable.

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    70. The Seven The Smith: They don’t like water, how will she get them to sail???

      Simple: put the ships on one side of them and their horses, and three dragons on the other side. They’ll be singing “yo ho ho and a bottle of rum” in no time….

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    71. ” Sullied.. Unsullied…. how many years will past in the story of The Winds of Winter… A Dream of Spring. That’s important to how the story ends, what ages the characters are. The Prince that was promise could be Jon Targareyn’ s son. G.R.R.M could jump 10 years in the books ending. That’s a generation,” the darkness lasted a generation”

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    72. Abyss: Sure it is, I just was always of the opinion that adding one spoiler bar to many is better than the one to few. People who are not afraid of spoilers can simple hit the “show spoilers!” thingy at the top of the comments. 🙂

      I’m of the same mind as you. Sure, there’s a lot book-readers don’t know about what will happen in season 6, but we have information from the books the Unsullied do not (which could impact one story-line or another), plus there are a few things from the published books they haven’t gotten to, yet:

      Euron and whatever they include of his story (although I would rather have the weirwoods animate and have a weirwoodmoot [yes, I loved the Ents], than a Kingsmoot), elements from Oldtown and the Citadel, and maybe Arya, given they ended the season with her going blind.

      The spoiler-code is easy to incorporate, and it leaves it up to the reader whether they want to reveal what’s underneath.

      btw – It’s really nice to see you back around more often!

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    73. The Seven The Smith:
      ” Sullied.. Unsullied…. how many years will past in the story of The Winds of Winter… A Dream of Spring. That’s important to how the story ends, what ages the characters are. The Prince that was promise could be Jon Targareyn’ s son. G.R.R.M could jump 10 years in the books ending. That’s a generation,” the darkness lasted a generation”

      Not long ago I watched the scene, when Daeneys was in Quarth, The prophecies showed Westeros destroyed, by what appears to be by dragon fire!! the throne room was burned down.. she was walking in a snow filled room still snowing lightly. Then she saw Drogo with their son, that’s foreshadowing quite a bit about her future to me

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    74. Ashara Dayne,

      There was a study done on various literature which proves that knowing a plot doesn’t ruin the reading of a story, in many ways it enhances it. Any story with surprises can only surprise once, the first time. It doesn’t mean that the story is then worthless once you know the plot.

      Interesting. I am someone who doesn’t mind spoilers, in fact has been known to read the last few pages of a book to see whats coming. Some of my favorite plays are ones I know by heart, and I often reread favorite books (like GOT) because knowing what happens allows me to pick up on other details I didn’t notice before

      That being said I know I am in the minority, and I’d never purposefully spoil anything But I do agree that if you don’t want to be spoiled be careful of which posts you read. I think the mods here do a good job letting you know if there is more ‘after the jump’ which is a clue not to read if you don’t want to

      I think the bigger problem with spoilers is during the actual season, with leaks and people who want to ruin it for others. I suspect if I didn’t want to be spoiled, I wouldn’t read anything until I saw the episode. Theres still a danger something is going to come up in a discussion tho. I really liked it when Sue set up a post for anyone who wanted to discuss the leaks and made sure those who didn’t want to be spoiled were cautioned about it.

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    75. Pigeon: End Game = Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran.

      I think that Sansa might play a role, too. But, yeah: those five or six will be most of the story in the end.

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    76. Wimsey,

      It is quite easy to predict the ending.

      Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Jaime – top 7 characters. From original outline of GRRM.

      ENDGAMES –
      Jon – King with Arya or Sansa as his wife or sacrifices self to save all of Westeros like Frodo
      Dany – Conquers Westeros, saves the realm, dies or returns to Essos
      Tyrion – King with Sansa or dead at the every end
      Arya – Queen as Jons wife or transfers to her wolf Nymeria to become a literal WOLF queen- lives on inside her wolf but her human part dies as no one
      Bran – Tree god
      Sansa – Queen as either Jon snow/Tyrions wife or dead.
      Jaime – Kills Cersei, Saves Sansa maybe to get redemption , dies with Cersei to end Lannister rule.

      The only part i am unsure about is whether Tyrion or Jon Snow ends up as the final king. For now, i go with Tyrion.

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    77. Jane: Jaime – Kills Cersei, Saves Sansa maybe to get redemption , dies with Cersei to end Lannister rule.

      If Jaime dies killing Cersei, then I doubt that he will be there in the end; I expect that it will precede the big “Decide between Ice and Fire” climax. (I’m betting that they go for luke warm water, myself….)

      GRRM has indicated that, ultimately, the plot lines and character story lines will merge. How and where, I don’t know: I expect that the Wall will fall (I’m betting that the Pink Letter tells us how that will happen), but the southerners will not unite in any way until the civil war finally is resolved.

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    78. ash: Interesting. I am someone who doesn’t mind spoilers, in fact has been known to read the last few pages of a book to see whats coming. Some of my favorite plays are ones I know by heart, and I often reread favorite books (like GOT) because knowing what happens allows me to pick up on other details I didn’t notice before
      That being said I know I am in the minority, and I’d never purposefully spoil anything But I do agree that if you don’t want to be spoiled be careful of which posts you read. I think the mods here do a good job letting you know if there is more ‘after the jump’ which is a clue not to read if you don’t want to

      I’m with you, ash. I don’t mind the spoilers, either; I’ve read the Wikis in order to understand the lore and the back-story, and find that knowing these things only enhances my viewing enjoyment, not spoil it. Everyone is different, obviously, and I wouldn’t deliberately spoil someone who doesn’t want it, but for me, following the cast and crew sightings at the filming locations and participating in the speculation is fun. It makes the long off-season go a little faster.

      The spoiler-phobic need to take a bit more responsibility themselves, and not show up regularly at sites known to be home to active and enthusiastic participants who enjoy speculation.

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    79. The Seven The Smith: Not long ago I watched the scene, when Daeneys was in Quarth, The prophecies showed Westeros destroyed, by what appears to be by dragon fire!! the throne room was burned down.. she was walking in a snow filled room still snowing lightly. Then she saw Drogo with their son, that’s foreshadowing quite a bit about her future to me

      Weren’t those scenes great? Yes, the ceiling was all burned out, and snow on the throne, which she reached toward, but DID NOT touch. And in order to get to Drogo and the baby, she walked through the door of the Wall – yeah the Wall in the North. Yet she doesn’t stay with Drogo, because she hears the call of her dragons.

      So go figure what that might mean – if there is “snow” on the throne, which she moves toward then moves away, is that Jon? Does she “let” him have the throne? Or is it just a vision of a frozen, abandoned land and a place that no longer has relevance to what exists? Is she thinking at some point she wants to die and join Drogo, but the responsibilities of having or being a dragon pull her back to her life remaining? In both visions, she is in Westeros, not Essos. I don’t know if these visions coincide with the book version, but as you can tell, I’ve spent time thinking about their meaning.

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    80. Jane: Jaime – Kills Cersei, Saves Sansa maybe to get redemption , dies with Cersei to end Lannister rule.

      I don’t think Jaime will be killing Cersei – I wouldn’t put it past her to kill him, though. He is besotted with Cersei, maybe partially out of habit; as they get older and horrifying events snake into their lives, it’s something to cling to. He’s not going to hurt her physically, because he’ll feel so guilty about letting her down with his hapless attempt to rescue Myrcella.

      He told Bronn, after their snake breakfast in Dorne, that he wanted to die in the arms of the woman he loves. Yet there might be a twist to that – he said that after they showed him looking so nostalgic as the ship to Dorne passed Tarth – Brienne’s homeland. Could it be that his begrudging admiration for Brienne turned to a kind of love for her, without him realizing it? I can see him dying in Brienne’s arms. Somehow, by the end of the story, Cersei won’t want to be bothered with holding him.

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    81. It’s funny how sure some people are on who will survive, who will be king, who will marry who, who will die..and how.. , who is the central character….. and the most funny is that they know the story better than the guy who writes it or the producers who already know the end.
      I remember i read that GRRM himself decided how to kill a significant female character one or two months ago…but i guess he should have asked. Anyway i am waiting how the story will end since i read a million theories about that and i am not sure about anything…
      The show main characters are the three Lannisters , Kit and Emilia it’s obvious from the credits and the promotion…as was Sean Bean in season 1 🙂

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    82. I feel like d and will be truncating the ending Ralph bakshi lord of rings style (not that bad, no VoiceOver) as season 6 is very heavy on book 4 and 5 stuff

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    83. Maggie: It’s funny how sure some people are on who will survive, who will be king, who will marry who, who will die..and how.. , who is the central character….. and the most funny is that they know the story better than the guy who writes it or the producers who already know the end.

      Speculation is half the fun of being on these sites in the off-season. I have never seen anyone write that they are absolutely sure about their speculations. I certainly am not, but when I do speculate I always use only the clues given from the show, then project from there based on what I think I know of human nature. (Ha, that even makes me laugh) We’d all be more than happy to bow to GRRM’s preferences for plot outcome if he’d just let us know what the heck they are … sometime … soon maybe, George?

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    84. Wimsey: I think that Sansa might play a role, too.But, yeah: those five or six will be most of the story in the end.

      I don’t think Sansa will make it through the end, or even through season 6. She wasn’t in GRRM’s original outline (while Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Jon and Dany were) and I think Lady’s death was foreshadowing: Sansa will make it through the political game, but will die because of magic or right before magic starts to play a role.

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    85. The importance of the Lannisters have been boosted in the show. They appear more on the show then they do in the books, except for Tyrion of course. Going by the number of POV chapters the order would look more like this:

      Tyrion (49 POV Chapters)
      Jon (42)
      Arya (34)
      Daenerys (31)
      Sansa (25)
      Bran (21)
      Jaime (17)
      Theon (14)
      Davos (13)
      Cercei (12)

      Of course the amount of chapters does not tell the whole story but looking at the top 6 it does give you some ideas about who could possibility be important for the end game. In the show they obviously like the political intrigue which is why they have pushed Cercei, Jaime and the other Lannisters to have larger roles then what they have in the books.

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    86. Sam the Slayer: I don’t think Sansa will make it through the end, or even through season 6. She wasn’t in GRRM’s original outline (while Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Jon and Dany were) and I think Lady’s death was foreshadowing: Sansa will make it through the political game, but will die because of magic or right before magic starts to play a role.

      Holy Many Faced God – can you imagine the sh** storm that would come down if Sansa gets killed? There was almost a mutiny because she got raped – that scene moved people who didn’t even think they were fans of Sansa’s. I can’t believe there would be plans to kill Sansa – but what am I saying, what show are we talking about here? Damn.

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    87. Boudica,

      I agree with you, i do enjoy all these theories and i have my own too. For me also this is a big part of ASOIAF and Game of thrones success
      I am just commenting on people who are “sure” , i think i have read 1000 different opinions that will definitely happen because it’s 100% sure. Also the defining of who will survive based on this early document of GRRM, which had Tyrion and Jon fight over Arya. For me this has nothing to do with the series anymore…. Jamie was just killing people , Sansa was lost since first book and Tyrion wasn’t even a dwarf. I think they still might keep some elements like Tyrion take side against the throne but not this time with Starks but with Dany and maybe Jaime is the one that take the Starks side and fight again as it was planned….against the Jaime who is actually Cersei in the new story and the survivors of each side will fight the big battle in the end..but this is just what think, reading other parts from the book i do think Jaime and Cersei will never make it to the end … and am afraid Sansa also.
      I still have hope for having the book the next 12 months.. i know this isn’t happening…but i can still hope..
      When it comes to the tv show this season…i can’t even have opinion for anything..i can’t even imagine where the characters will be. Tv show is different than the books..i can imagine trying to keep some actors for one season doing nothing, just to have them there…they did it with Sansa, Jaime and Tyrion this season.

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    88. Boudica,

      See, i did that too..but then i realized that
      Eddard Stark (15)
      Catelyn Stark (25)

      and Catelyn was supposed to be alive for long time in the original plan.

      We know less than Jon Snow…we have to accept it 🙂

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    89. Jane,

      Dany, Jaime, Cersei will die. A lot of foreshadowing for this in the show or the books. Not so sure about Sansa or Arya. I’m kinda 50/50 with Jon too. He could be king (not my best ending), another death (unlikely for me) or simply dissappear with Ghost. The last one would be my favourite ending for him.

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    90. Thronetender

      I agree with you about Jamie and Brienne. I also think there’s some foreshadowing for Jamie helping Jon.

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    91. Thronetender,

      Are you a book reader? Big difference of Jaime’s feelings towards Cersei in book v show – Book Jaime is really growing apart and rethinking his relationship with Cersei. Show Jaime seems as stupidly in love with her as ever. Still think that Jaime will kill her unless D&D take the story in an entirely different direction. Maybe Cersei will end up on throne (for 5 minutes).

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    92. Don’t read War and Peace, or watch the upcoming BBC adaptation, if you don’t want to get spoiled on how GOT/ASOIAF will end. 😉 I’m not saying the ending will be exactly the same, but when I first read after “bittersweet ending”, after finishing the books and before watching Season 2, the ending of War and Peace was the first thing that came into my mind. Afterwards, I’ve discovered that even if he is careful not to mention Napoleonic Wars, and especially Russian Campaign, as an inspiration, he has a longstanding interest in that historical period. He even wrote two short stories on Finnish War in college. According to a recent interview for the largest Finnish newspaper he has read The Tales of Ensign Stål, which even most Finns wouldn’t have done nowadays, so he definitely must have read the greatest epic novel of all times, War and Peace.

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    93. Sam the Slayer,

      Sansa was in the original outline, but she was a much lesser character than she would be in a synopsis of the first three books of similar detail. That might be part of why she is such a static character: GRRM did not initially have the same general plans for her as he did for the others.

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    94. Geralt of Rivia: Dany, Jaime, Cersei will die. A lot of foreshadowing for this in the show or the books.

      Cersei’s death has been prophesied in the books, but I don’t think that it has been foreshadowed. I cannot think of any good foreshadowing of Jaime’s or Daeny’s deaths, either.

      Maggie: and Catelyn was supposed to be alive for long time in the original plan.

      In the original plan, she was supposed to die about when she did: around the same time that Robb did. The difference was that she didn’t die with Robb in the original plan: Catelyn dies towards the end of what would have been book 3 north of the Wall with Arya and Bran with her (but surviving).

      Maggie: The show main characters are the three Lannisters , Kit and Emilia it’s obvious from the credits and the promotion…as was Sean Bean in season 1

      That does not say much: the people who do the promotions, etc., are not the people who make the show.

      Josh: as season 6 is very heavy on book 4 and 5 stuff

      All of the important stuff from Crows and Dragons was shown last year: basically, they just cut stuff that will almost certainly prove to be filler in the end, as none of it involves the primary characters. Season 6 is going to be Winter.

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    95. Sam the Slayer: I don’t think Sansa will make it through the end, or even through season 6.

      I totally agree! Since she lied to the king and protected Joffrey and lost her direwolf, I’m sure she’ll die. I don’t believe the theory about her becoming a master player in the game by just listening to Littlefinger’s bullshit… He doesn’t love her and never loved her mother, all that is to manipulate them both (when you know what someone wants – in that case, being loved -, you can manipulate people, that’s what LF said).

      Geralt of Rivia: Dany, Jaime, Cersei will die. A lot of foreshadowing for this in the show or the books.

      I agree too! As much as I love Dany, she’s too obvious since the beginning of the books and show : she’s a bit invincible, with three dragons and a claim for the throne since the first chapters. If she wins at the end it will be a bit unsurprising. She’ll probably die fighting the Others and Jon will sit the Iron Throne.

      The characters who will die (in my opinion) : Sansa, Dany, Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, Melisandre, Theon, Euron, Victarion, Aegon, Jon Connington, Roose, Walder, Ramsay, Grey Worm, Littlefinger.

      The characters who will survive : Jon, Tyrion, Sam, Davos, Bran, Hodor, Arya, Rickon, Missandei, Asha, Aeron.

      And I’m not sure about Varys and Brienne…

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    96. Both Jaime and Cersei will die eventually I think, with Cersei going first. But Jaime has a stronger chance to make it to the end or close to the end – the showrunners have stalled his arc from the books a little, which means it will likely stretch out for longer. And of the two Lannister twins, he’s the one with the most unfinished emotional business (relationship with Brienne, wanting to atone for Aerys, wanting to atone for other things, etc.) But I also don’t think he’s going to kill his sister.

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    97. my page a day calendar quote for 28-july:
      Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman’s hair. Who knighted me old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. are you my mother, Thoros?
      -Beric Dondarrion- a storm of swords

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    98. Thronetender: Holy Many Faced God – can you imagine the sh** storm that would come down if Sansa gets killed?There was almost a mutiny because she got raped – that scene moved people who didn’t even think they were fans of Sansa’s.I can’t believe there would be plans to kill Sansa – but what am I saying, what show are we talking about here? Damn.

      Excellent comments Valar Dohaeris, I don’t understand why the majority of viewers believe Sansa was raped. Ramsay is a monster don’t get me wrong, but the difference compared to Dany and Drogo were what? Theon was there, a bad example but an example nevertheless in medieval times it is known people of court sometimes were in the room until the marriage was consummated. The act itself let you know it was brutal, not gentle and insensitive to a wedding night, that’s not rape. To me it was her character even being there was shocking. The majority of fans, myself included, at the end of S4 thought Sansa, ascending from the stairwell at The Vale was on her way to being a player in the game. The writers not only didn’t continue her new found confidence, but actually wrote her character to not only be put back into another situation of manipulation, but with Ramsay, who I think is worst than Joffrey. So watching the horror of her returning to Winterfell, knowing the psychopath Ramsay was, the wedding night… disturbed me seeing her put in a unjustified position again. That’s what bothered me most. I also don’t think Sansa lives either sorry Sansa fans she has proven, she is a pawn, not a player in this game.

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    99. Cersei’s Brain:
      Thronetender,

      Are you a book reader?Big difference of Jaime’s feelings towards Cersei in book v show –Book Jaime is really growing apart and rethinking his relationship with Cersei.Show Jaime seems as stupidly in love with her as ever.Still think that Jaime will kill her unless D&D take the story in an entirely different direction.Maybe Cersei will end up on throne (for 5 minutes).

      I only completed through book 3, and that was a while ago. Basically, it’s show only. Like I said, I use only the clues/situations provided by the show to come to whatever conclusions I voice here, and Jaime in the show, for the most part, still cares about Cersei. The only sign of him starting to not idolize her as much was when he moaned something to the effect of “why do I have to love a hateful woman?” I think that was over Joff’s body. But still, he used the word “love.”

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    100. Deesensfan:
      Thronetender,

      Bran also saw the snow filled iron throne in one of his visions, right?

      Yes, I think so. For sure, he saw the shadow of a dragon flying over Kings Landing, but can’t remember what other things he saw. Does anybody else remember – was Ned in that vision, too? I kind of remember a flash of Ned; Bran seems to have a lot of flashes of Ned in the show, which bodes well for those of you hoping for Tower of Joy flashbacks.

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    101. The Seven The Smith: Excellent comments Valar Dohaeris, I don’t understand why the majority of viewers believe Sansa was raped.

      At the very least, Sansa was sexually assaulted. Under very strict definitions of “rape” (non-consensual sex or related acts), then this would not qualify. However, that means that rape is only one type of sexual assault: if two people consent to have sex, but one does something abusive to the other to which the other does not consent, then that is sexual assault. It might be only second degree murder relative to first degree murder: but it’s a difference of degree, not type.

      (There are, of course, philistines who still believe that husbands cannot sexually assault wives: but they are simply awful people.)

      Moreover, this really was not quite like what happened to Daeny. OK, the Dothraki probably do not have a word for “foreplay” – they really need to work on that – but Ramsay almost certainly was deliberately hurting Sansa rather than inadvertently doing so.

      The Seven The Smith: I also don’t think Sansa lives either sorry Sansa fans she has proven, she is a pawn, not a player in this game.

      I would have agreed until I read the Sansa Winter chapter. Finally, after 25 chapters of dithering, we actually get dynamic character development for Sansa! This really is a mistake by GRRM: this is less development and more metamorphosis, as the Sansa in this chapter simply is unrecognizable from the first 24.9 chapters of Sansa. (There is a brief glimpse of this in the closing of her final chapter, in which Littlefinger walks her through a scheme; yes, he walks her through it, but, yes, she actually gets through it.)

      Moreover, you are using a false dichotomy here: it is not either “pawn” or “master player”: as people like Cersei (or, in the books, Arianne or Asha) show, you can be a really bad player. That’s not a pawn.

      Now, Sansa might never get to be a great player of the Game. Indeed, it’s really too late for that: I suspect that a lot of readers are going to have a hard time buying Winter Sansa given how sudden the shift is. However, she isn’t going to be a pawn anymore: she’s going to act on her own. There will be a learning curve – like Daeny, Jon and Arya, she’ll almost certainly make some early mistakes – but we finally are seeing a curve!

      Sam the Slayer: I think Lady’s death was foreshadowing: Sansa will make it through the political game, but will die because of magic or right before magic starts to play a role.

      Lady’s death was a foreshadowing, but of an event that already has taken place: it foreshadowed Sansa getting disowned by Robb. Both Sansa and Lady were cut out of the pack by the head of the family for reasons that proved unfounded.

      It did not foreshadow Sansa’s death, however, unless the head of the Stark pack is going to execute her baselessly in the end.

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    102. Phyllis Ashley: I think this is what they are referring to. I am very, very glad he changed a lot of these plots.

      But what stands out is that although he changed the plots, he retained the stories. And the fact that we know what type of story GRRM likes to tell, this does limit the possible conclusions. If nothing else, then we can be certain that the grand finale will involve something where the lead characters feel that they are in some “damned if you do, damned if you do not” situation: either they cannot have it both ways, or they do not really like either alternative. However, 6+ books of character evolution should set up their decisions so that they make sense to us.

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    103. Thronetender,

      The snow-filled Iron Throne was in Daeny’s vision in the House of the Undying. That’s when she walks out beyond the Wall and says farewell to Khal Drogo. This could foreshadow Daeny meeting the next Drogo of her life beyond the Wall.

      Bran might also have seen it in his brief visions, but I do not recall. He does see dragon shadow over Kings Landing.

      kit_hepburn: wanting to atone for Aerys

      I do not think that Jaime has any desire to atone for what he did to Aerys. Now, whether he wants other people to understand why he did it is another matter. Both in the books and on the show, Jaime evolves from a callow “soulless” person into Not-Tywin. The smugness and arrogance that left him indifferent to other people understanding his actions is gone, or at least rapidly fading. That could play a huge role in him becoming, say, Queenslayer, too….. 😀

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    104. Happy to say I have no idea what will happen to anyone in the end!

      Pretty sure Jaime will kill Cersei, perhaps in a similar situation to killing the Mad King to protect the innocent. As much as I’d like him to live on and survive outright I think the chances of that are pretty slim and he’ll probably die at the same time of shortly after Cersei. Unless there’s the off chance that he’s Azor Ahai but I think that’s got to be Jon or Dany surely? (one will die defeating the WW and the other will sit the Iron Throne).
      Other wild predictions include;Sansa or Arya marrying Gendry (the Stark/Baratheon match that never quite happened); Rickon marrying Val and the North fully settling Wildings; Littlefinger turning out to have noble ambitions; Hodor is related to Ser Duncan the Tall and Howland Reed is the High Sparrow. Plus minor ones like Septa Lemore is Tyene’s mother and The Sailor’s Wife is Tysha and she’s had Tyrion’s son.

      Really out there ones that I kind of like but don’t think they could be true are that Arthur and Ashara Dayne are still alive somewhere.

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    105. Okay. Two centavos time. Or what I call “for what it’s worth”, because while much of the speculation is probably pretty close to what will happen…..”I” think there is going to still be a big surprise in our GoT’s future. Surprise = didn’t see it coming a mile away!

      That said. I agree with the majority here that final end game will NOT include Lannisters, Jon, Sansa and much to my sadness….Tyrion. If I were writing the books, Tyrion would be the one to survive (as he always does) and start the new Westeros/Essos in whatever direction that is going to be. *chucklecoughchuckle* *sigh*

      I can’t get the “I am going to break the wheel” line from Daenys from my mind. To me, this means – there will be no King/Queen, but each area rule autonomously. I think that the final stand off between the WW/Others and the rest of the world will change everything. The petty struggle for the Iron Throne won’t mean so much any longer.

      And of course I am blowing smoke out my neither region too because I haven’t got a clue except for one thing. The last thing that Daenys see’s is Drogo and their son in her vision. I think that is the last thing she will see before she buys the farm too. A great ending to think that Daenys is united in death with what she wanted most in life.

      I could go on and will later….but I think when someone writes too long a reply, after a few paragraphs people tend to just move along to the next post. Really enjoying reading all the speculation. It would be fun if WotW had a way to capture these prior to Season 6 and then evaluate how we did after Season 6, no?

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    106. I do not think that Jaime has any desire to atone for what he did to Aerys. Now, whether he wants other people to understand why he did it is another matter.

      Understand is a better word than the one I used in my original post, yes.

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    107. Deathdreams:
      my page a day calendar quote for 28-july:
      Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman’s hair. Who knighted me old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. are you my mother, Thoros?-Beric Dondarrion- a storm of swords

      Very poignant quote.

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    108. The Seven The Smith: To me it was her character even being there was shocking. The majority of fans, myself included, at the end of S4 thought Sansa, ascending from the stairwell at The Vale was on her way to being a player in the game

      Like Wimsey has said, Sansa is on a learning curve. It will take time, ebb and flow, before she’s able to properly use what she’s learning. Everyone’s reaction to “new, cool Sansa” was what prompted me to write one of my first “Littlefinger is NOT a lovesick hero” posts. People were believing that he would almost be proud and happy at her new strength, like a father.

      LF is a pimp. He has no respect for women, especially high-born women, or their opinions. He would be affronted by some female daring to believe she has out-played him, or daring to oppose him in any manner. (see what happened to Ros) If he truly loved Sansa, or had any true respect for her high-born status, he would have never considered putting her in even the vicinity of the Boltons. I believe he was punishing her by putting her with the Boltons, to undo that strength she was finding, to make her more humble and pliable for when he was ready to make best use of her parts and her name.

      Poor Sansa, everyone has plans for her name and her parts. I hope her learning curve moves along faster, to her benefit. I have no idea if she she’s going to make it. I do know if they put her back with Ramsay, I will gag and protest loudly. I couldn’t stand seeing her back there again.

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    109. Jane:
      Wimsey,
      ENDGAMES –
      Jon – King with Arya or Sansa as his wife or sacrifices self to save all of Westeros like Frodo
      Dany – Conquers Westeros, saves the realm, dies or returns to Essos
      Tyrion – King with Sansa or dead at the every end
      Arya – Queen as Jons wife or transfers to her wolf Nymeria to become a literal WOLF queen- lives on inside her wolf but her human part dies as no one
      Bran – Tree god
      Sansa – Queen as either Jon snow/Tyrions wife or dead.
      Jaime – Kills Cersei, Saves Sansa maybe to get redemption , dies with Cersei to end Lannister rule.

      The only part i am unsure about is whether Tyrion or Jon Snow ends up as the final king. For now, i go with Tyrion.

      Agree with most of this, although I disagree that Jon/Sansa is a likely endgame pairing. Also, if Tyrion and Sansa were meant to wind up together, the show wouldn’t have scrapped their marriage, which was the only thing tying them together.

      The outline seemed to suggest that Outline Sansa bites it. Whether GRRM’s changed his mind is anyone’s guess, but if another Stark dies, it will likely be her.

      Tyrion ending up on the throne seems crazy in the books, but TV Tyrion’s been written as so heroic that I don’t know what to think anymore. If he does wind up on the throne, though, it won’t be with a queen by his side. GRRM likes his protagonists lonely and loveless.

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    110. JCDavis: That said. I agree with the majority here that final end game will NOT include Lannisters, Jon, Sansa and much to my sadness….Tyrion.

      Tyrion has gotten more chapters than any other character. Basically, he is almost 19% of the narrative for the characters that realistically might be relevant in the end. Jon is #2 at almost 17%.

      If those two are not hugely important at the end, the approximately one-third of the character development that is still relevant will be irrelevant. That would be an absolutely execrable bit of writing by GRRM. Now, GRRM has had lapses before: but “lapse” would not even begin to describe wasting that much character development!

      JCDavis: I can’t get the “I am going to break the wheel” line from Daenys from my mind. To me, this means – there will be no King/Queen, but each area rule autonomously.

      I do not see how that follows. If anything, then I would argue that it means the opposite: Daeny intends to centralize control and remove the major families from positions of power.

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    111. Wimsey: If those two are not hugely important at the end, the approximately one-third of the character development that is still relevant will be irrelevant. That would be an absolutely execrable bit of writing by GRRM. Now, GRRM has had lapses before: but “lapse” would not even begin to describe wasting that much character development!

      Yes, exactly! Nor would he be able to get away with attributing it to “world-making.” Therefore, Jon must be coming back! Whoop, Thank you, I can get on with my day with a smile on my face. For today.

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    112. Wimsey: it foreshadowed Sansa getting disowned by Robb. Both Sansa and Lady were cut out of the pack by the head of the family for reasons that proved unfounded.

      Wimsey, huh? You totally lost me there. How, where, when was she disowned by Robb? That’s gotta be book.

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    113. Wimsey?

      Did you miss the part of my post about nether regional smoke? It means it is MY fantasy, not reality. While I do think that Tyrion will “be there” as a part of the end game, I do NOT, absolutely NOT think he will be “the one” to rule them all. *wink* I think that has to fall to a new or younger generation. That is also why I think that Daenys will not be “the one” and it is just my fantasy about her and Drogo and baby being together at the end of all things.

      As to “the wheel” speech. You could be right and most usually are…but not always, as we do know. Take THAT!! 😛 I can’t defend my position at all. I THINK it would be lovely if there were no more stupid contention for a stupid throne that has caused absolutely nothing but death and heartache and family unrest from the beginning of ASoIaF.

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    114. JCDavis,

      I personally don’t think Dany dying and reuniting with Drogo and her son is an angle GRRM will go for. As we know from the books and the TV show ‘there is no other side’. No reuniting in death. There is death, nothingness and then there’s life, with all its possibilities.

      I think in the show, her seeing Drogo and her son in the North is Dany’s only recognizable symbol of ‘home’ (in the books its the house with the red door). So I think the metaphor there is that to go home, or achieve the family life she wants at heart, she must go north. Very much rhyming with the whole ‘to reach the west, you must go east’ etc.

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    115. Just to get back to the photos….if you zoom in it looks like the right hand figure in the forefront has a very large pale gray/white dog (dire wolf?) next to him. And is that maybe Hodor on the right? Somebody very tall. But I can’t see why Bran would be in that situation or location. The other option is that it’s Ghost. And some poor dead guy in the foreground…maybe arrows? But think definitely a dire wolf.

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    116. Tori Targaryen,

      Please see response above. As I said, I know this is not what WILL happen, but what I wish for Daenys WOULD happen. So in my puny brain, I have already built that construct. 🙂

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    117. JCDavis,

      lol don’t worry, I knew you were just stating your preference for what would happen. I actually don’t really have a preference, since I think it’s best not to have one given GRRM’s tendencies :p Though I am fully prepared for Dany being killed at the end of it all. In fact, I’m prepared for everyone being killed at the end of it all lol Can’t be too careful.

      Though concerning the younger generation being left to rule, that is a common theme, but bear in mind, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya etc are all, what would be considered in our times, children, or at most adolescents. They are all younger than 20, so they are the younger generation.

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    118. Sergei Walankov,

      It’s quite worrying that people who can only “understand” things through TV shows are allowed to vote!
      Meanwhile, the demonisation of Corbyn in the media continues. It’s almost as if they’re worried by him…

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    119. Thronetender: Like Wimsey has said, Sansa is on a learning curve. It will take time, ebb and flow, before she’s able to properly use what she’s learning.Everyone’s reaction to “new, cool Sansa” was what prompted me to write one of my first “Littlefinger is NOT a lovesick hero” posts. People were believing that he would almost be proud and happy at her new strength, like a father.

      LF is a pimp. He has no respect for women, especially high-born women, or their opinions.He would be affronted by some female daring to believe she has out-played him, or daring to oppose him in any manner. (see what happened to Ros)If he truly loved Sansa, or had any true respect for her high-born status, he would have never considered putting her in even the vicinity of the Boltons. I believe he was punishing her by putting her with the Boltons, to undo that strength she was finding, to make her more humble and pliable for when he was ready to make best use of her parts and her name.

      Poor Sansa, everyone has plans for her name and her parts. I hope her learning curve moves along faster, to her benefit. I have no idea if she she’s going to make it. I do know if they put her back with Ramsay, I will gag and protest loudly. I couldn’t stand seeing her back there again.

      Excellent break down of Sansa’ s character I’ve ever read!

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    120. JCDavis: Please see response above. As I said, I know this is not what WILL happen, but what I wish for Daenys WOULD happen. So in my puny brain, I have already built that construct.

      Sorry to butt in on this conversation, but I have noticed that you call this character DAENYS. I am not a book reader, but I thought Daenys was the daughter of the Targaryen Lord who first settled on Dragonstone from Valyria, one hundred years before Aegon’s conquest of Westeros. Apparently, Daenys was a “dreamer” and foretold many things, including the doom of Valyria. My question: why do you call Daenerys DAENYS? Is there some prophecy or something that Daenerys is Daenys born again?

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    121. Thronetender:
      I believe he was punishing her by putting her with the Boltons, to undo that strength she was finding, to make her more humble and pliable for when he was ready to make best use of her parts and her name.

      Nope, the writers have been quite clear that Littlefinger didn’t know anything about Ramsay and that, per the actor as well, that his actions are meant to be sincere in offering her a path to take revenge.

      Sansa was not on a learning curve in Season 5. She didn’t learn anything about playing the game or manipulation, as she never tried either. Indeed, she forgot things she already knew before, and was regressed back to her earliest status as a helpless hostage with bonus naïveté.

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    122. Kay,

      Could be wrong, but I think some people prefer to spell it Daeny rather than Dany. I prefer Dany since that’s exactly what GRRM types, so….

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    123. Kay and Tori

      I stand justly corrected. I used to type “Danys” but got corrected on that as well. If GRRM uses Dany, that is good enough for me. *bows to superior knowledged ones* I refuse to courtesy these days, I would probably hurt something I need besides my pride. 😉

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    124. I like Sansa, but like Stannis, I want that character to die now, because her hardcore fans had destroyed all my enjoyment in her.

      They were whining at the end of S4 that she is too strong, now they cry that she is too weak, and next year they will find something new…

      The best thing that happened to show fandom in death of Stannis Now we don’t need to listen to his fanboys and their irritating hate on Dany and Stannis the Mannis refrain.

      I want Sansa to die, so I don’t need to listen to “agency” nonsense.

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    125. Tori Targaryen,
      Yes, I understand the shortform of Dany or Daeny for present-day Daenerys. (I don’t like Danny – because I have no idea where that extra n comes from!)

      JCDavis,
      Thanks for explaining. I was just confused because Daenys was actually quite an important past character (from what I gather), since without her visions, there would be no Targs at all. Recently reading about the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor and all that, so I wondered if I had missed some obscure prophecy somewhere. 🙂

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    126. OT somewhat, but with filming commencing…concerning the casting for the famous knight, the only other option that fits besides AD is GL, who had similar qualities with RT and was very compassionate to TL and the common folk. So what are the odds for either being the one cast.

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    127. mau:
      They were whining at the end of S4 that she is too strong

      As I recall, the most common issues some fans had with the end of Season 4 was that it was crushingly unsubtle (which it was, though it’s rather hilarious in retrospect since “Darth Sansa” ended up being dumber and more victimized than ever) and that the show has not built up to that moment effectively due to prior changes, or the lack thereof. Both of those were true.

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    128. Sean C.,

      Book purists just hated that scene because it was different from the books. You don’t need any big set up for Sansa to lie to 3 people after 4 seasons. Nothing extraordinary, and she lied to them in the books also, and she lied to other people in the show before.

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    129. Apparently Kit just cut his hair. Nothing drastic about it.

      Wimsey,

      Probably not tons, but fair good amount of it.
      Jaime wishes to die with the woman he loves. Conversation with Bronn and he loves Cersei more than anything. When you look at the Valonquar prophecy in the books and connect the dots. Tyrion would be the obvious choice, but in fact it’s probably Jaime. I can imagine they will die together in each other arms.
      With Daeny. I hate to say this, because she’s my favourite. House of the Undying in the show. When she walked through the Wall to the tent with Drogo and Rhaego. I think it symbolize that she will rejoin them in the after life…after the final battle. But not before she bear a living child (MMD). It’s widely accepted that she is destined to die in the battle or even in the childbirth (mirroring Lyanna’s death). I prefer death in the blaze of glory, but it’s up to GRRM.

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    130. Tori Targaryen,

      I go for Dany as it’s an abbreviation so if I can get it as short as possible and still convey the meaning then surely that’s what it’s all about!?

      mau,

      You concern yourself with what others think far too much. Just like or don’t like characters based on them as characters. No one else’s thoughts should factor into your own opinion. Seperate the show from the fanbase: You’ll be a lot happier for it.
      Or you could just stop listening to “agency” nonsense?

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    131. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Seperate the show from the fanbase

      This is good advice, but since I am a hardcore fan, and I am on this and many other sites I just can’t be blind to others opinions.

      I am “jealous” of people who can. Book purists made me love Michael Gambon as Dumbledore in Harry Potter, because he was so hated for no reason.

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    132. mau:
      Sean C.,
      Book purists just hated that scene because it was different from the books. You don’t need any big set up for Sansa to lie to 3 people after 4 seasons. Nothing extraordinary, and she lied to them in the books also, and she lied to other people in the show before.

      No, your book purist straw men were not criticizing solely because it was different. It was critiqued for exactly the reasons I identified (and also because the scenario necessarily makes Littlefinger look like an idiot). But the overall reception of that scene among Sansa fans was positive, as it seemed to augur that the show would start giving her character and skill development after consistently putting her on the back burner in King’s Landing. Little could we know…

      And while she lied in the book, she did so as part of Littlefinger’s plan, whereas the show has her make a bold play to acquire her own political capital (which the show completely ignored afterward).

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    133. mau:
      I like Sansa, but like Stannis, I want that character to die now, because her hardcore fans had destroyed all my enjoyment in her.

      They were whining at the end of S4 that she is too strong, now they cry that she is too weak, and next year they will find something new…

      The best thing that happened to show fandom in death ofStannis Now we don’t need to listen to his fanboys and their irritating hate on Dany and Stannis the Mannis refrain.

      I want Sansa to die, so I don’t need to listen to “agency” nonsense.

      Agreed. Sansa fans are the wooooorst. I’d hoped that Sansa’s rape would lead them to ragequit the show en masse. No such luck, I’m afraid. Hopefully, Sansa will die soon and we’ll never have to hear the word “agency” uttered in show discussion circles again.

      But the overall reception of that scene among Sansa fans was positive

      That’s not how I remember the Sansa fan reaction. They made sure to communicate their displeasure at great length and in extremely explicit terms. Not fun for the rest of the fandom.

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    134. Sean C.: As I recall, the most common issues some fans had with the end of Season 4 was that it was crushingly unsubtle (which it was, though it’s rather hilarious in retrospect since “Darth Sansa” ended up being dumber and more victimized than ever) and that the show has not built up to that moment effectively due to prior changes, or the lack thereof.Both of those were true.

      Build up to what moment? I never understood that fandom part who saw a “darth Sansa” just only bcause she wear a Lisa’s black dress.

      I didn’t see how wearing that dress made her “darth” or anything many people read in it or wanted it to be so important. Mah.
      And, actually, in season 6 we were clearly shown that Sansa was not “darth”, she was always the same as before, while conviced by LF that she could play the game (but she was not ready for it). As in the books.

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    135. Sean C.,

      It was criticized for so many nonsensical reasons like sexualisation of Sansa.

      And it was all criticized because some book purists thought that Sansa has done something unbelievably smart, something that wasn’t possible for anyone to do, and something that needed 6 seasons of building up for one fake crying scene.

      Yes, she acquired her own political capital in the Vale in S4, but that capital was worthless in the North in S5.

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    136. M: Sansa will die soon and we’ll never have to hear the word “agency” uttered in show discussion circles again.

      The irony is that Sansa didn’t do anything in the books to show her “agency”. She is just Lf’s pawn, and she agreed to marry a stranger because LF promised her the North. That is basically her storyline until S5E4.

      We will see what kind of husband Harry will be, and something will go wrong with him also.

      In the books we also have jealous Myranda with Sansa.

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    137. mau: The irony is that Sansa didn’t do anything in the books to show her “agency”. She is just Lf’s pawn, and she agreed to marry a stranger because LF promised her the North. That is basically her storyline until S5E4.

      We will see what kind of husband Harry will be, and something will go wrong with him also.

      The outline hinted that Outline Sansa dies, so hopefully GRRM is preserving that aspect of the outline. Fingers crossed!

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    138. M,

      Don’t get me wrong, I want Sansa to win, and I liked her chapters in ACOK and ASOS, but I already can see the book purists reaction next season. If she gathers the Northern lords to her side, they will say that that doesn’t make any sense because Sansa was raped.

      And if she kills LF they will say that Sansa was raped and therefore, she can’t do anything now.

      I should listen to TheTouchOfFrost advice and just ignore them.

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    139. Sean C.: Sansa was not on a learning curve in Season 5. She didn’t learn anything about playing the game or manipulation, as she never tried either. Indeed, she forgot things she already knew before, and was regressed back to her earliest status as a helpless hostage with bonus naïveté.

      That is an absolutely ridiculous conclusion. Nobody is so dense that he/she would not learn a few things from what Sansa went through. If nothing else, then she has learned that she can command people: her constant cajoling of Reek eventually rescued Theon from Reek. Moreover, Sansa has learned that she truly does have some steel to her character: the wallflower of Kings Landing is gone.

      As for Littlefinger looking like an “idiot” for not knowing about Ramsay, well, why would he? The Boltons are a secretive lot, and it is pretty clear on both show and in the books that the South knows very little about what happens in the North. Now, Varys might have known: but Varys has a spy network throughout the 7 Kingdoms and Essos.

      Now, Littlefinger is very knowledgable. However, knowledgable != all-knowing: knowledgeable people are somewhere between the former and “ignorant,” that is all.

      Geralt of Rivia: Jaime wishes to die with the woman he loves. Conversation with Bronn and he loves Cersei more than anything.

      Ah, right! And Cersei says that she and Jaime will go out of the world together in the books. Do you know, it was nagging at me that I had some reason to think that Jaime would be a non-factor in the end, too: that is it.

      As for Daeny, I look at it as foreshadowing something else: she will meet the man who replaces Drogo in her life (let’s face it, Daario is a fling!) beyond the wall. Alternatively, it could foreshadow Daeny turning her back on Death beyond the Wall. In a way, this is less foreshadowing and more prophecy: Daeny is, after all, aware of it. (In true foreshadowing, the audience can see it, but the characters cannot.)

      Kundry: I never understood that fandom part who saw a “darth Sansa” just only bcause she wear a Lisa’s black dress.

      It was a first small step towards Sansa finally asserting herself. Now, it hardly was the great moment of dynamic character development that some fans make it out to be, but it was the first time that Sansa seemed to show some desire to actively take part in her own fate.

      The steps continued this year. Again, although it gets missed, Sansa went into this with the intention of playing Cersei Jr. and destroying her enemy by marrying him. Yes, it was Littlefinger’s idea: but, again, babysteps!

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    140. Abyss,

      AH, so he said Jon’s parentage would be revealed in the final book, i.e. Season 7???????????? ( I know he has changed the original plan but I wonder if he changed that one?)

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    141. Sansa has learned one important thing in S5, don’t trust LF’s plans (her biggest mistake at the end of S4 and first half of S5)

      But what she really learned this season, we will see in S6.

      We didn’t see what Jon has learned in S3, until S4.

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    142. mau:
      M,
      I should listen to TheTouchOfFrost advice and just ignore them.

      Ignoring Sansa fans is always a smart bet. They insist on being heard, though, so it’s a bit difficult to ignore them.

      I was heartily sick of Stannis fans glossing over all the awful things he did in the books and hyping him as this misunderstood hero, so the conclusion of Stannis’ Season 5 arc was mightily satisfying. There was nothing so sweet as the sound of silence that ensued. Hopefully we’ll get a similar treat in Sansa’s arc.

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    143. M: Ignoring Sansa fans is always a smart bet. They insist on being heard, though, so it’s a bit difficult to ignore them.

      Good point.

      M:
      so the conclusion of Stannis’ Season 5 arc was mightily satisfying.

      It was even more satisfying when you remember that Stannis killed her daughter in the same episode where Dany has one of her most iconic scenes, and Stannis the Mannis fans hate Dany more that D&D.

      M: Hopefully we’ll get a similar treat in Sansa’s arc.

      Sadly, we won’t, because if Sansa gets killed in S6, her hardcore fans will say that D&D hates her and that her death doesn’t make any sense, and if she kills LF, they will say that D&D hates her and that his death doesn’t make any sense.

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    144. M: I was heartily sick of Stannis fans glossing over all the awful things he did in the books and hyping him as this misunderstood hero,

      15 years ago, fans were doing that with Robb Stark. He was going to take the Iron Throne, behead Joffery with Ice while uttering the final words “He who passes the judgement swings the blade” and then marry Daenyrs on the spot. Because Robb was the HERO of the story, you see! All of the PoV characters were not protagonists, but instead were the witnesses to Robb’s ascension.

      Whoops….

      M: Ignoring Sansa fans is always a smart bet. They insist on being heard, though, so it’s a bit difficult to ignore them.

      Ah, Sansa has been the source of a schism among SoI&F fans for years. She was generally disliked by fans not simply because she was so insipid, but because her stupidity caused her and her family so much harm. There were those who grumbled that Sansa was a fundamentally sexist character, too: the pretty airhead who was basically a Medieval Barbie Doll. From a literary point of view, a lot of fans were very frustrated that, after 3 volumes, Sansa was still the same character whereas all of the other characters had evolved so much.

      However, Sansa had a minority of very vocal proponents. In some ways, they were more Arya-haters and Daeny-haters than Sansa supporters: but it was a lot of “Sansa’s a good girl and they aren’t” stuff. In a lot of ways, they were like Ron Weasley fans from the Harry Potter series: it was mostly stuff that they were sure was happening, but that GRRM just hadn’t written!

      Of course, Sansa’s near absence from Crows (it was almost like GRRM forgot about her just as an arc was getting started!) left a lot of that (along with Sansa) forgotten by the middle of last decade. So, I have no idea where the Sansanites went. (They didn’t have the spectacular implosion of the Robbettes, that is for certain!)

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    145. Wimsey: : it was mostly stuff that they were sure was happening, but that GRRM just hadn’t written!

      have you any examples? I’m very interested in this. I have some examples, ofc, but I want to hear yours.

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    146. mau,

      No, I think now finding out about her brothers should give her some drive and motivation to try and fight back against anyone who comes in her way. Its quite obvious that’s the path shes going to take.

      (I know what youre saying is not your opinion but that of “Sansa fans”)

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    147. Deesensfan,

      Finding out about her brothers was the first time in the show or the books that she got a purpose in her life. I don’t know what they will do with that in S6, but that was the first time that she got some kind of goal, that wasn’t Lf’s plans about harry or Ramsay

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    148. mau: We will see what kind of husband Harry will be, and something will go wrong with him also.

      Haven’t read the books, but I imagine that Harry will be very similar to Show Ramsay, in what kind of a husband he is. Ramsay is the heir to Roose in Winterfell, isn’t Harry heir to Robin in the Vale? I imagine Sansa’s book arc will be quite similar to the show, except Winterfell sits in for the Vale.

      M: so the conclusion of Stannis’ Season 5 arc was mightily satisfying.

      I confess it was one of the most satisfying moments in the series to date for me. 😀 Just like Tywin’s death in the Season 4 finale was.

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    149. mau,

      I know, im just saying it shouldn’t really be shocking to those Sansa fans you’re referring to that she would want to rally the north and try and find her brothers.. she has a reason to live now.

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    150. mau:
      Yes, she acquired her own political capital in the Vale in S4, but that capital was worthless in the North in S5.

      Which is why it was nonsensical that she was in the North in the first place. The entire storyline made not the slightest bit of sense for either her or Littlefinger (or the Boltons, for that matter).

      mau:
      The irony is that Sansa didn’t do anything in the books to show her “agency”. She is just Lf’s pawn, and she agreed to marry a stranger because LF promised her the North. That is basically her storyline until S5E4.

      That’s not irony, because (a) the show changed her story to give her way more support and independence than the book version ever had, only to then make her an even more credulous dupe than the book version has ever been and (b) Sansa in the books is on a slower and more logical path to acquire skills. She has yet to assert herself independently of Baelish. The show had her do that, then forgot about it and put her in a complete repeat of her Season 1-3 story where she didn’t advance at all.

      Wimsey:
      That is an absolutely ridiculous conclusion.Nobody is so dense that he/she would not learn a few things from what Sansa went through.If nothing else, then she has learned that she can command people: her constant cajoling of Reek eventually rescued Theon from Reek.Moreover, Sansa has learned that she truly does have some steel to her character: the wallflower of Kings Landing is gone.

      She didn’t “command” Reek. In fact, she spectacularly failed at commanding anybody. All she did to Reek was rant at him, and he ended up snapping out of his persona to rescue her, but that was not by design — Sansa inadvertently inspiring people to help her is nothing new. And Sansa already thought she had “steel”. She showed that in King’s Landing. All she did in Winterfell was idiotically glower at people, which she was smart enough not to do in King’s Landing — another indication of her being dumber and less of a player than she was even starting out.

      The steps continued this year.Again, although it gets missed, Sansa went into this with the intention of playing Cersei Jr. and destroying her enemy by marrying him.Yes, it was Littlefinger’s idea: but, again, babysteps!

      No, not a “babystep”, because the idea of “destroying her enemy by marrying him” was completely idiotic, and never made the slightest bit of the sense. She had no plan, and never did the slightest thing to try to destroy Ramsay. Indeed, per Littlefinger, the only thing she was supposed to do was sit around and wait for Stannis to come (which itself makes no sense as a plan), or try to maybe charm Ramsay (which she never even attempted).

      Wimsey:
      There were those who grumbled that Sansa was a fundamentally sexist character, too: the pretty airhead who was basically a Medieval Barbie Doll.From a literary point of view, a lot of fans were very frustrated that, after 3 volumes, Sansa was still the same character whereas all of the other characters had evolved so much.

      It’s actually the characterization of her as a “medieval Barbie doll” that is sexist, and overlooks the enormous changes she went through in the first three books.

      Of course, Sansa’s near absence from Crows (it was almost like GRRM forgot about her just as an arc was getting started!)

      Her arc was well underway. But regardless, Sansa (and her siblings) weren’t in AFFC/ADWD much because of the five-year-gap getting canned, but GRRM needing to hold them largely in place for their starting points in the “Act 2” — in Sansa’s case, she was the closest to her starting point of any of the three already.

      mau:
      Finding out about her brothers was the first time in the show or the books that she got a purpose in her life. I don’t know what they will do with that in S6, but that was the first time that she got some kind of goal, that wasn’t Lf’s plans about harry or Ramsay

      The show ended last season with the clear indication that she had a purpose and was going to be playing for something, so learning about her brothers doesn’t fill some purpose gap (it’s nice to know, of course, though in her very next appearance she was thoroughly beaten down again so it’s hard to say it supplied some enduring fire).

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    151. Kay: Haven’t read the books, but I imagine that Harry will be very similar to Show Ramsay, in what kind of a husband he is. Ramsay is the heir to Roose in Winterfell, isn’t Harry heir to Robin in the Vale? I imagine Sansa’s book arc will be quite similar to the show, except Winterfell sits in for the Vale.

      There is absolutely no reason to think that. Harry, from what we’ve seen of him, is a bit of a cad. He is not a cartoonish psychopath, and unlike with Ramsay, Sansa is actually doing a good job of getting a handle on him (serving to demonstrate her acquiring manipulation skills, unlike the show where she’s actually less skill and less successful than she was in Season 2 with Joffrey). Moreover, even if he wanted to, Harry is not in a position to lock Sansa in a room and rape her all day without consequences (which would also be a complete repetition of Jeyne Poole’s story, i.e., the story the writers gave Sansa instead of her own).

      Deesensfan:
      I know, im just saying it shouldn’t really be shocking to those Sansa fans you’re referring to that she would want to rally the north and try and find her brothers.. she has a reason to live now.

      She wasn’t lacking a reason to live before. And she didn’t try to rally the North — that would have made sense, instead of what she actually did, which was voluntarily become a Bolton hostage again.

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    152. Sean C.,

      No she WILL try to rally the north.

      Edit: That’s what my prediction is.

      And I don’t think she felt like she had a purpose… she was scared, when LF was leaving her she was scared, lets not forget that shes a child… Season 4 ended showing us a changed Sansa…. I expected her to come out flying, but it just showed us that she could easily be broken again… LF had to remind her about sweet revenge…. Then LF left, and once again she was let back to scared Sansa, until she found out about her brothers. I think this one will make a difference.

      This is just my interpretation and my prediction.

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    153. Deesensfan,

      I haven’t seen any Sansa fans who are surprised by the idea of her trying to rally the North (indeed, that’s what they’re hoping happens, generally speaking, to try to rescue something from this awful plot). Rather, the issue is why she didn’t try that before (to which the obvious answer is that wouldn’t have allowed the writers to put her in the place of Jeyne Poole; the whole plot justification was a rickety scaffold that collapses under the slightest examination, and which is forgotten about entirely after Littlefinger leaves).

      Finding out about her brothers didn’t make her not scared (and she had already stolen that tool before she found out about her brothers [the only meager thing she did all season, and even that totally failed], so it didn’t suddenly give her a new motivation) — and, for that matter, she was entirely right to be scared. Fear is a useful emotion because it tells you that going to Winterfell to marry a Bolton is an idiotic and dangerous idea, which was was then rushed into doing because “revenge…or something, don’t think about it too much”.

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    154. Oh…please…let’s talk about Sansa some more and make bald, ridiculous statements about D&D’s intentions and how Sansa is a dishrag, blah blah blah, all while misunderstanding what agency even means in a literary sense.

      Please, I want to read more of that. Or perhaps I’ll crack open Pilgrim’s Progress, the most boring book in all of literature.

      This makes me want to scour the internet for pics of Kit’s hair.

      In other news, Lena Headey is tweeting about saving the whales, NCW’s birthday was yesterday and he celebrated in France and is now in Spain in the seasonal aisle of store of some sort, Dean Charles Chapman is eating s’mores and Gwendoline Christie is favoriting tweets.

      Oh and former cast news Pedro Pascal is playing a Mexican drug agent in an movie about Pablo Escobar.

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    155. mau,

      You don’t have to be blind to other people’s opinions just don’t take them to heart! I find it a little embarassing when people gush over characters but ultimately it doesn’t affect the show and certainly doesn’t affect me so they can go nuts!
      I, like everyone, have characters I like more than others (Jaime Lannister mark here!) but I won’t try and defend him or his storyline like they’re a real person. I must admit to being slightly irked about the ease in which Brienne defeated him and that some of his better lines haven’t been included (strangely the Sept scene didn’t bother me at all as showed how messed up their relationship was and reminded people that Jaime still isn’t a white knight) but you let things go for the sake of the overall picture as long as the core character is still there which in nearly every case it is (Loras being the only exception that really jumps to mind). Stannis was one of the most interesting characters in the show so I regret that he’s gone (well 99.9% sure he is!) but I’m not going to take it personally as it’s just part of the story-telling process (although it is part of many reasons why I struggle to like/care about show Brienne).
      I don’t know why people from all walks of the fandom were so pissed off about Sansa this season. Apart from the ridiculous way in which she found herself in Winterfell, it was by far her most interesting season as a character since Season 1…in fact I think she was more interesting than even then. Wish people would stop whining about her being a victim and not getting her revenge,etc. I honestly don’t care as long as she’s interesting which this season, at last, she was for me.

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    156. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Sophie’s acting was terrific, and some of the individual scenes were interesting to me, but the whole thing was so colossally off-base on an arc level and in terms of basic storytelling logic that I couldn’t enjoy it much. It ranks with Season 3 as the worst seasons for the character, as far as I’m concerned.

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    157. mau: have you any examples? I’m very interested in this. I have some examples, ofc, but I want to hear yours.

      Basically it was the “Sansa’s thinking about how to use Joffery’s stupidity to escape” or “Sansa is thinking about how to get information to Robb” and stuff like that. Unfortunately, I guess she only thought these things in Tyrion’s PoV chapters!

      There was the almost prescient idea that Sansa would seduce Loras (chastely, of course) and he would win her freedom for her! Well, at least somebody thought that something like this would be a good idea.

      Ultimately, I suspect that the problem was that GRRM initially intended Sansa to be a secondary character, and (relatively) belatedly elevated her to a protagonist. So his initial vision for the over-arching story was not including a big character arc for Sansa as it was for Jon, Daeny, Arya, Bran and Tyrion. So, she didn’t evolve much relative to the other characters. Hopefully that will change in Winter, and at least it has on the show.

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    158. Sean C.: Jeyne Poole’s story, i.e., the story the writers gave Sansa instead of her own

      Um, Jeyne Poole didn’t have a story. She was an inconsequential prop in Theon’s story. They flipped it majorly here: on the show, Theon was much closer to be a prop in Sansa’s story.

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    159. Angela:
      Any updates on #HairWatch2015? I am dying to know if Kit cut his hair or still sporting the man-bun?

      There was a photograph posted on Instagram recently which appeared to show that he’d cut it.

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    160. *opens dictionary to ‘A’ section*

      *carefully cuts out the word ‘Agency’*

      *places ‘Agency’ on ground, pours wildfire, kerosene, propane, ethanol, and magnesium powder on top*

      *aims flamethrower*

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    161. Wimsey,

      What they actually did was give Sansa Jeyne Poole’s role, and consequentially she became the POV because the writers were dimly aware that she’s the more important character and because the hoops they had to jump through to get her there framed it as her story; but at the same time, it remained Theon’s story, because the whole thing is undertaken for Theon’s character development, and it is all building up to Theon’s moment of truth…just without much actual focus on Theon. A uniquely unsatisfying approach, as it serves neither character.

      Typified by the climactic scene, which story-wise revolves around Theon, but is shot with an almost exclusive focus on Sansa and Myranda, so that Theon’s two-seasons-in-the-making break from his Reek persona just kind of happens (the recent Far from the Madding Crowd adaptation made a similar mistake in how the climax was staged, where Boldwood is hardly even in it before he acts).

      M,

      The silliest thing about Hair Watch is that like half the cast of this show wear wigs, and if the show is really committed to the “Jon is dead” smokescreen, the producers could easily have just let him cut it immediately and just have him wear a wig too for Season 6 (or just have Jon come back with a different haircut, I guess).

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    162. Deesensfan:
      Thronetender,

      Wimsey,

      He does see the iron throne covered in snow as well. Its been shown in two visions now.

      Thanks for the video link – watched it over and over. He DOES see Ned, Ned polishing Ice and Ned in the KL dungeons. He does see the Throne room, with its empty throne, burned out ceiling and something to the left of the throne I couldn’t make out – it looked like a stick figure wearing a white sheet.

      He also saw something else that I never realized before – he sees the Nights King for a split second. Its the new version of the Nights King, as we saw him in Hardhome, not the one that froze Craster’s baby. After the wight child who’s about to turn around, after the undead horse and throne room shot, for an instant, at about 3:13, it’s the Nights King, looking down through a covering of ice, as though Bran is looking up at him through a frozen river.

      Whatever that may mean.

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    163. Sean C.,

      I’m hoping that’s the case! It seems like an interesting premise, especially based on a fairly intriguing criminal figure from not THAT long ago…heck, Pascal’s character is someone still living and working with the agency.

      OH GOD I USED THE WORD AGENCY.

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    164. Sean C.:
      Deesensfan,

      I haven’t seen any Sansa fans who are surprised by the idea of her trying to rally the North (indeed, that’s what they’re hoping happens, generally speaking, to try to rescue something from this awful plot).Rather, the issue is why she didn’t try that before

      Because they didn’t have time for the lord from the North. It would have been better to have them on her wedding, not after she escapes Winterfell, but the show has limitations.

      It would have been better to have Blackfish in season 1, to have Ramsay in S2, to have Reeds in S2, maybe even to have Euron in S5, but it was not realistic,…

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    165. OT sorta, but not quite…a female friend of mine who I hadn’t seen in almost a year dropped and while hanging out the discussion of GoT’s last season eventually popped up (she’s unsullied). She was upset concerning Myranda, because being BI, wanted Myr to teach Sansa the joys of feminine courtship, and was upset it never materialized.
      Now she feels there are no possible bi-sexual relationships that will emerge among the remaining female stars. She was earlier hoping for Dany/Miss, but believes that ship has sailed. She doesn’t like D&D’s negative portrayal of Loras and felt the show runner’s are anti-freedom. She further believes that the show should highlight that Northern tribal societies, mimicking Vikings society like the Wildlings or Ironborn, give a shout out to female warriors who worked both sides of the bed.
      You might have guessed by now her profession involves History at the institutions of higher learning level, she still has a few years left till her doctorate.

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    166. Angela: Any updates on #HairWatch2015? I am dying to know if Kit cut his hair or still sporting the man-bun?

      Here are some of the latest pictures I ve seen:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLBx4pXUcAA2S-c.jpg
      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLBx4pUUsAA1SCP.jpg
      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKyF0JFWUAAJBe9.jpg
      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKyF1NJWsAAI5XS.jpg

      His hair is a bit shorter, but I guess it could grow back within a month or so. Clearly he is getting a bit fed up with the pictures. I ve also seen a tweet that he might be back in Belfast again.

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    167. Pigeon: OH GOD I USED THE WORD AGENCY

      And I’m going to use the word agency in the following mini-tirade, then hopefully not again, at least for a few months.

      We met Sansa at Winterfell, being praised for her perfect needlework by her Septa, having known nothing but praise and indulgence from everyone around her. She was secure enough in her life as a lady to be smug about being more lady-like than Arya, to be rude to her Septa. Everything she had ever learned told her that this peaceful, graceful life was the way of the world. She had no idea of the mindset of the aliens that were about to invade her life, carry her off and destroy every notion she had ever had about fairness and civility.

      Within a matter of months, she is subject to physical abuse, a constant barrage of blatant public insult and having to endure seeing the heads of her murdered father and septa on spikes. These are events that cause shock, stultifying, mind-numbing shock, from which a long-term physical and emotional recovery must be made.

      Technically, she should be a babbling bucket of shit, yet there she is, in the ladies waiting room at the Blackwater, with the presence of mind to calm the ladies, while Cersei babbles on about rape (more shock). Add to that everything else that she’s endured since, which she must process, from which she must recover, a bit at a time, with no help or encouragement. Recover, relapse, ebb and flow.

      Forget agency, if that word annoys you. Forget about GRRM’s original outline – characters take on their own lives as they are written. Sansa has. Try adaptibility, as in adapt or die, as in the adaptability that allowed humans to walk from the ice age into space rockets. That’s what Sansa is, that’s what she does. I’ll put my money on Tyrion’s assessment: Lady Sansa, you may yet outlive us all.

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    168. mau: Because they didn’t have time for the lord from the North. It would have been better to have them on her wedding, not after she escapes Winterfell, but the show haslimitations.

      It would have been better to have Blackfish in season 1, to have Ramsay in S2, to have Reeds in S2, maybe even to have Euron in S5, but it was not realistic,…

      Delaying introductions is fine, so long as the plot you have makes sense, which was not the case this season (most of the other delays work fine, though not having Ramsay in S2 created real problems at the very end). Whatever story you tell, it must be plausible and natural for the characters and setting, which that plot resoundingly fails, for all of the characters involved. Not that I think having the Northern lords at Winterfell would likely have improved the setup much, because it still doesn’t make sense that Littlefinger and Sansa would want her to go there.

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    169. When it comes to Sansa it seems like it is difficult to say at times what her end game is suppose to be, it does seem like she will make some kind of play for the North at least. But it seems like people’s expectations of the character and what generally happens in ASOIF/ GoT might become a bit skewed at times.

      Sansa might actually be in less danger by being a pawn then by becoming a player. As a player you immediately become a much bigger target. We have also seen a bit of a pattern with regards to character development at times.
      You sometimes expect a character to go into a certain direction, or a character might start to believe that things are finally coming together, and the rug are often pulled out underneath them. They are either murdered or they get some big setback. This is especially prevalent when it comes to Starks.

      Ned thought he had just secured the Goldcloaks, and in the next moment he was betrayed and captured by the Lannisters. Robb was in a difficult position, but he thought if he could just secure the Freys then he could have a chance of victory again. Jon has just gotten all of those Wildlings beyond the Wall, and he gets stabbed. Even with Cercei and Jaime this pattern holds true.
      Cercei thought she was on top of her game, acting just like Tywin would, and the next moment she is arrested and has to do a walk of shame. Same situation for Jaime when he lost his hand. Same thing with Stannis, when he just left Castle Black everyone was sure that the Boltons would be defeated.

      My point is that a character often feels as if he/ she is making some progress, only for the situation to be completely turned around against them. This is why I personally dont have any issues with Sansa’s arc this season, it would actually fit the overall pattern quite well.
      Sansa thought she was moving forward, she thought she was becoming more observant and a player, but unfortunately she learned that not everyone can be played or manipulated. Instead of moving ahead into a position of more power like most people would have suspected, she ended up ten steps back again, which actually works very well within the story if you look at the fate of most characters.
      It just seems like some people’s expectations for characters might not always fit into the world of ASOIAF.

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    170. Sean C.: Delaying introductions is fine, so long as the plot you have makes sense, which was not the case this season (most of the other delays work fine, though not having Ramsay in S2 created real problems at the very end).Whatever story you tell, it must be plausible and natural for the characters and setting, which that plot resoundingly fails, for all of the characters involved.Not that I think having the Northern lords at Winterfell would likely have improved the setup much, because it still doesn’t make sense that Littlefinger and Sansa would want her to go there.

      I don’t agree, I think it makes sense, and I think that is more interesting to watch Sansa playing the game with lords from the North (if she ever plays the game), then lords of the Vale, because no one cares about the Vale, and she can even rule the Vale and it will feel like filler, just like Dany and Meereen. GRRM put Sansa it that place and he waits until she becomes relevant to the story.

      With Sansa GRRM has serious problems with his writing, because he is not able to create plot that would be relevant and at the same time develop Sansa’s character. He just puts her in isolation and waits.

      And because of that D&D used her in Bolton’s and Theon’s plot, and also Lf’s plot (he has ambition toward North), because they have plots, and Sansa doesn’t.

      If she becomes powerful it needs something to do with the North or KL. I don’t want to see her manipulating (or whatever) some unimportant characters from the Vale, I want to see her interact with Karstarks, Manderleys , Umbers, Boltons, Lannisters,…

      And I also can’t see a realistic way for GRRM to make Sansa player of the game in the last two books. She is just too young, too inexperienced, without loyal allies in the Vale, without money, or army, or dragons, or…

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    171. Sean C.,

      I enjoyed it. Thought putting her in an interesting situation actually benefitted not just her but allowed Ramsay and Roose to develop too and gave Theon his redemption. As I said before, the means of getting her up there were just plain ridiculous. Littlefinger throwing her to the Boltons so soon after acquiring her and not knowing anything about Ramsay who’s not exactly subtle with his psychopathy! I thought that bit was very contrived but once she was in position I thought it played out very well and kept with the spirit of the books but merged and streamlined them well. Certianly better than the dull clunky mess Brienne’s story has become. But different strokes for different folks.

      tyjon,

      Your friend should just watch the show and enjoy the characters regardless of their sexuality …and possibly get laid.

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    172. TheTouchOfFrost:
      Sean C.,

      not knowing anything about Ramsay who’s not exactly subtle wi

      I don’t understand why they wrote that, because I think it would be better if he knew exactly who Ramsay was, and he just didn’t care, because putting Sansa in WF is much more important for him, than her happiness.

      Everything would be the same with him knowing everything about Ramsay.

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    173. Sean C.,

      I guess you made some good points.. I just feel like finding out about her brothers will motivate her to stay strong and not take any more shit!
      I didnt think her plot was awful. I loved it!

        Quote  Reply

    174. mau,

      I guess it’s saveable as LF moves in mysterious ways but at the moment it looks quite a contrived plot device.

        Quote  Reply

    175. mau,

      I agree with a lot of this.

      I also feel as though Sansa is a character who, unless things really pick up in WoW/S6, was a mistake as a main POV character. Not as one at all, of course, but as a main one. I’m both a book and a show fan, and her chapters have read as half filler for a while now. I almost wished they had Bran-d her for a period of time. I certainly agree that not everyone has the capacity (or should have) to become a weapon wielding knight, we need the thinkers, the wits (Tyrion) and the reasoning (Barristan, Jorah – advisors as well as fighters), the vengeance seeking (Arya, Sandor), the unifiers (Dany, to a degree), and the scheming manipulators (Cersei) just as much.

      Do we need the vanilla, in this type of story, to relate to? Maybe. I really don’t know. Most of us, put in the same situation, would very likely throw it in and give up very quickly. Maybe people admire Sansa because she seems the most likely example of how they’d react.

      I don’t care if people disagree, because I don’t claim to speak ‘facts’, just my view. Keep in mind, Catelyn was also one of the least likeable characters imo, and I think that the farther the show departs from LS, the better. 🙂

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    176. tyjon,

      I dont think D&D are portraying Loras in a bad way… the show slightly parallel “medieval times” (FYI I am not a literature or history guru so i may be wrong about referencing medieval times) , but whatever, some point in history where Loras’ sexuality was not considered okay. I dont think its a direct jab at sexuality by any means.

        Quote  Reply

    177. Boudica,

      ugggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
      Never know what to think about these things. Yes i am all for the “he can wear a wig etc” but he never has i dont think.. and it WAS long when he first arrived… soo..
      Sigh… only time will tell

        Quote  Reply

    178. Pigeon,

      My view of Sansa’s role in things to come may be off somewhat because I never really liked the character. And to be honest I never really forgave the character for that idiocy on the trip from Winterfell that got her wolf killed and for kind of selling out Ned to Cersei.

      And I think it would be kind of strange if she ended up a really major character in the end game. Because both books and show have kind of hit us over the head about the connection between the Stark kids and their wolves. ie: Robb allowing his to be kenneled and Jon not having his near him when FTW went down.

      And here’s Sansa who not only doesn’t keep her wolf close. She let the danged thing get killed thanks at least in part to her behavior.

        Quote  Reply

    179. I’m a show watcher and almost finished book 1, so semi-sullied 🙂
      I’m not a Sansa fan as such. There’s far too much willingness to throw family under the bus so she can be a fairytale princess early on and I don’t really see much growth from that mindset, or not enough anyway.

      One thing that’s bothered me, and I must have missed something obvious, but LF (who supposedly ‘rescued’ and cares what happens to her and also thinks she is of value re his ambitions/the North etc) – why then tell Cercei where she is? He knows there’s a price on her head. I realise LF will play 2 sides, is he just hedging his bets or is there more to it?

        Quote  Reply

    180. SJH,

      To get Cersei’s ‘permission’ to attack Winterfell, as she will now see The Boltons as traitors. I just can’t see what’s stopping Roose from telling Cersei that it was LF’s plan/idea.

        Quote  Reply

    181. Deesensfan:
      Thronetender,

      Wow!! The Night King… didnt even notice that!!!

      The Night King, my new preoccupation obsession with GOT these past weeks. I’m unsuilled so I’m curious on the sullied thoughts about these sidhe from The Land that’s always Winter. From what I’ve read, the books described them as almost “Beautiful in- human creatures that are supernatural beings. ” Their not mention much in the books so far. So why has the show decided to portray them as these creepy evil beings, who take Crastner baby boys and turn them into whitewalker babies, and The Night King has thorns on his crown, has lieutenants, and a army of the dead.

      And why has D&D given us so much focus on The Whitewalkers. I thought, until I saw the battle at Hardhome, these creatures were horrible demons wanting to destroy Mankind.. but I think this storyline goes deeper than good vs evil. Or….kill the whitewalkers and save the world. I think the Night King could be Aegon son of Rhaegar and Elia…The showdown endgame Jon Targaryen and his brother Night king Aegon. Now it’s two theories I’m working on with two different endings

      Will Jon be brought back from ice?
      Will Jon be brought back by fire?

        Quote  Reply

    182. The Seven The Smith: The Night King, my new preoccupation obsession with GOT these past weeks. I’m unsuilled so I’m curious on the sullied thoughts about these sidhe from The Land that’s always Winter. From what I’ve read, the books described them as almost “Beautiful in- human creatures that are supernatural beings. ” Their not mention much in the books so far. So why has the show decided to portray them as these creepy evil beings, who take Crastner baby boys and turn them into whitewalker babies, and The Night King has thorns on his crown, has lieutenants, and a army of the dead.

      And why has D&D given us so much focus on The Whitewalkers. I thought, until I saw the battle at Hardhome, these creatures were horrible demons wanting to destroy Mankind.. but I think this storyline goes deeper than good vs evil. Or….kill the whitewalkers and save the world. I think the Night King could be Aegon son of Rhaegar and Elia…The showdown endgame Jon Targaryen and his brother Night king Aegon. Now it’s two theories I’m working on with two different endings

      Will Jon be brought back from ice?
      Will Jon be brought back by fire?

      I’m not 100% on this but I don’t think that was from the books per se. I think it was an old quote by GRRM. Maybe in a note to an artist working on a SOI&F project or in an interview or something like that.

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    183. Ashara Dayne:
      SJH,

      To get Cersei’s ‘permission’ to attack Winterfell, as she will now see The Boltons as traitors. I just can’t see what’s stopping Roose from telling Cersei that it was LF’s plan/idea.

      Ah yes! Thank you, I’m remembering that now…. and yes agreed, re Roose. Maybe LF hoped Stannis would have wiped him out before that could happen. ( I could be losing the plot here 😛 )

        Quote  Reply

    184. Deesensfan,

      I think this is where you would really notice a difference in the books and the show (I know you haven’t read them and don’t want spoilers, so I won’t give any particular detail!). Moreso with Renly – the difference in his character is quite marked – but Loras gets a bit of it as well. I have to say, I really like Finn Jones in this role!

      Don’t lose heart with Kit’s hair – after all, maybe it just got a little singed on the funeral pyre!

        Quote  Reply

    185. And to be honest I never really forgave the character for that idiocy on the trip from Winterfell that got her wolf killed and for kind of selling out Ned to Cersei.

      I wasn’t a fan, but I did give her a break – she was just a kid for heaven’s sakes. Kids half the time don’t realize what affect their words and actions actually have. As for now, yeah I was hoping that her experiences the last few years would make her a bit stronger. I don’t think she could have done anything different in her prison of WF, but now it will be interesting to see how she and Theon manage together to escape. Something tells me we’ll see a very different woman. Hope so anyway

        Quote  Reply

    186. Lost Northern,

      There is no “Dany” on the show, and if there were, it would be spelled “Danny” because Dany would be pronounced Dane-y and that’s not a name.

      *Just giving you a hard time 🙂 I haven’t read the books.

        Quote  Reply

    187. The Seven The Smith: The Night King, my new preoccupation obsession with GOT these past weeks. I’m unsuilled so I’m curious on the sullied thoughts about these sidhe from The Land that’s always Winter. From what I’ve read, the books described them as almost “Beautiful in- human creatures that are supernatural beings. ” Their not mention much in the books so far. So why has the show decided to portray them as these creepy evil beings, who take Crastner baby boys and turn them into whitewalker babies, and The Night King has thorns on his crown, has lieutenants, and a army of the dead.

      And why has D&D given us so much focus on The Whitewalkers. I thought, until I saw the battle at Hardhome, these creatures were horrible demons wanting to destroy Mankind.. but I think this storyline goes deeper than good vs evil. Or….kill the whitewalkers and save the world. I think the Night King could be Aegon son of Rhaegar and Elia…The showdown endgame Jon Targaryen and his brother Night king Aegon. Now it’s two theories I’m working on with two different endings

      Will Jon be brought back from ice?
      Will Jon be brought back by fire?

      I wouldn’t say that the White Walkers specifically are described as being beautiful, their armor are described as beautiful and magical as it changes colour to reflect their surroundings. In GRRM’s original outline he still described them as Ice demons.
      The only place where a White Walker is really described as being beautiful is the Nights Queen. It is the only female White Walker we ever hear of specifically. So perhaps the women are beautiful? There are also stories about Wildings sleeping with White Walkers, and there are stories that some Starks have slept with White Walkers, so I guess there must have been some attraction somewhere along the line, but I wouldn’t specifically label them as being beautiful.

      But the Nights King does actually have a relatively clearly documented history. He is supposedly a Stark and the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch after the Long Night. (In the scene where he places the baby on the altar, there are 12 figures behind him, these might be the 12 Lord Commanders that came before him).
      He give his soul to the Nights Queen when he slept with her, and together they ruled from the Nightfort for 13 years, the brothers of the Nights Watch was placed under a spell to serve them. (It might be a similar spell to the one that creates wights). The Nights King’s Stark brother at Winterfell had to remove them from power.
      But of course according to GRRM recently the Nights King in the Show might not be the same person as the historical Nights King. So then it would just be a title that was passed down.

      There are obviously still lots of parts missing from the story with the White Walkers. But it does seems as if they have some kind of a connection with the Starks. It is also clear from the books that they are in fact taking Craster’s babies. There is some speculation or rumours that Craster might have some Stark blood. Bran might also have a connection with the Great Other or the Ice magic of the White Walkers.

      For me personally it is always strange that we dont really hear or see anything about female White Walkers, and perhaps it simply due the fact that they are all safely going about their daily business in The Lands Of Always Winter. While the male White Walkers or a soldier division are out fighting against the humans.
      But it does not seem to be the whole story, since they needed Casters sons, and they turned a baby into a White Walker.
      I haven’t really seen much about it, but to me it does seem significant that there is a problem with female White Walkers, especially if the White Walkers is just suppose to be a different race like The Children of the Forest.
      It might also be why they are interested in invading Westeros, they might need more babies perhaps their numbers are dwindling. Or perhaps they were cursed or something during the Last Long Night and with the activities of the Nights King, and now the time has come for them to remove this curse. It is interesting that they only use Craster’s sons, if there is some kind of curse, perhaps they are not able to convert a baby girl into a White Walker.

      But on the other hand since we never see any female White Walkers, there is also some speculation that the whole story about the Nights King has been twisted, perhaps he never took a White Walker as a Queen.
      All of this is legend and very long ago, at this time the Starks were still securing the North. Their biggest rivals were the Boltons and the Barrow Kings. The Barrow Kings ruled the largest part of the North and they were the first Kings of the North. There is a legend about a curse being placed on the Great Borrow, if anyone should be a bigger King then the Barrow Kings, then they would be turned into corpse like beings.
      So perhaps the Nights queen was not a White Walker, perhaps she was related to the Barrow Kings. But they will obviously never look into these types of legends in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    188. Deesensfan: ugggghhhhhhhhhhhhh
      Never know what to think about these things. Yes i am all for the “he can wear a wig etc” but he never has i dont think.. and it WAS long when he first arrived… soo..
      Sigh… only time will tell

      His hair is not that short and they dont shoot continuously for 7 months. Perhaps he will have a few weeks off now. He still has to shoot that movie he and Carice are signed up for. Or perhaps he just did his funeral scene. If we really want to know Jon’s fate, Kit would have to be spotted in Belfast on a continuous basis over a period of time. That being said from a narrative sense I think he would be resurrected or at the very least it will happen in the books.

      He might be near Belfast again right now.
      https://twitter.com/ThirteenRivers/status/626140654905724928

        Quote  Reply

    189. Boudica,

      Boudica,

      The Seven The Smith,

      Some interesting comments here.
      I am very intrigued by the whole White Walkers story line in the show (haven’t read the books). I really cant wait to see how this turns out and how Jon will play into this… I think he will be key (if he does return and we are not all on crack!) I also think there is more to it than just good vs evil.
      And Bran will have a major role in this, if you rewatch his visions you will see the night king as we saw him in Hardhome, which I never noticed before

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    190. Boudica,

      I know, I don’t think its that short either, its just shorter than when he first arrived in Belfast and shorter than how season 5 ended… so I am just being pessimistic and skeptical. It really could be anything… like you said. I too think he will come back, but you never know with GRRM/D&D…
      Yes, sounds like he could be in Belfast… I didn’t even know that he left

      Pigeon,

      Ha, that’s what I was thinking..

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    191. Pigeon,

      Sansa can be quite stupid, but Ned and Cat never really taught Sansa how to survive, did they? They just let her keep dreaming without letting her know what the real world was like. They just figured Sansa would have a nice life as a nice lady forever. Maybe if Ned made Sansa watch the Night’s Watch deserter’s execution like he did with Bran, she’d have woken up to reality a lot faster.

      Ned and Cat didn’t do much for Arya, either – just let her be and figured she’d be a proper “lady” when the time came. Ned hiring Syrio to give Ayra dancing lessons was the best decision he made – Arya was able to survive because of those lessons. And his speech about wolves and winter helped Arya to remember her true identity as a Stark when she was on her own.

      ash,

      Neither Stark sister faced that situation before, and they reacted according to their personalities and how they’ve been brought up at the time. They were natural reactions for naïve kids, which, unfortunately, had dire consequences out of their control.

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    192. Flora Linden,

      Also, Sansa is considered a proper little Lady because of her total incuriousity and her total passivity. Like most “traditional” cultures, the Westerosi consider women to be innately inferior to men intellectually. Women showing signs of intelligence (like Arya) are condemned as “willful” and even deemed immoral.

      Now, one could (and should, I think) argue that GRRM should have started a dynamic “stupid duckling” arc for Sansa much earlier than he did: it really should have begun by Swords and not waited until Winter. However, this is separate from GRRM (and B&W) showing just what a misogynistic world Westeros is. There cannot be “empowered” women in this world because it is not tolerated: unless, perhaps, you have 3 dragons to use!

        Quote  Reply

    193. ash,

      One theme of SoI&F is the effect of figuratively (and literally in one case) cathartic experiences. Sansa probably will get that from Harry in the book (the Winter chapter suggests a nasty person who will not take the bastard Alayne seriously). B&W have just moved it up a year and probably magnified it a bit.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Wimsey:

      Also, Sansa is considered a proper little Lady because of her total incuriousity and her total passivity.

      That’s true, but I prefer TV Sansa over Book Sansa. Despite her passivity, TV Sansa is not quite as dense or unaware of things. In S1 there was a scene where Septa Lemore takes Sansa to the throne room and tells Sansa of her future as queen. Sansa asks some pointed questions about children, and what would happen if she only bore daughters for the king. After giving Jeyne Poole’s mother as an example, she concludes bluntly, “And then they would all hate me.” No fairy tale dreaminess whatsoever. So Sansa is not totally ignorant of the expectations of her station. I think TV Sansa can be quite observant, but she’s not as quick or perceptive in putting pieces together like Tyrion, Bran or Arya. (The same could also be said of Jaime, Robb or Jon Snow, for that matter.) After what she’s been through, hopefully she’s finally learning to do that.

      I agree with the rest of your post. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    195. Flora Linden: Despite her passivity, TV Sansa is not quite as dense or unaware of things.

      Oh, I concur. I was really focusing more on book Sansa. But, quite frankly, it would have been cruel of the producers to ask Turner or any other young actress to play someone as clueless as book Sansa. At best, she would have been typecast as the pretty bimbo for the rest of her life; at worst, people would have assumed that the actress simply could not act.

      Did they really mention Jeyne Poole on the show? I had no memory of that! Of course, I had no memory of Jeyne Poole when she turned up in Dragons: although I’d re-read the first three books for the first time in years right before Dragons came out, I sort of “sped-read” them (2 year old kid + busy life + re-read). And all I could think after reading her re-introduction was: man, what a bitch!

      At any rate, I am very glad that the show started to have her character evolve much sooner than the books did. I’ve read a lot in my life, and never anywhere else have I read a protagonist who was both so passive and so static.

        Quote  Reply

    196. Is it me or does Kit Harington look like he has dropped quite a bit of muscle and weight??? 😮

      Tyjon

      There has been much grumbling and gnashing of teeth over the “show” Loras pretty much only in homosexual situations. Whereas in book, he was a very great knight, the Knight of Flowers. Considered manly even. So I can understand some of the feedback from the popcorn eaters about that portrayal.

      However, regarding bi-sexual relations on the show….how about lesbian? or transsexuals? I think there is only so much a show can do. The show isn’t being made to be politically correct, it is being made to depict the book world of GRRM, which – to me – has very little PC’edness in it. Because the show doesn’t recognize one “labeled community” over another, to me has nothing to do with bias towards that particular community, because it sure does cover quite a few other very controversial issues. Now….I don’t know if your girlfriend has watched that much of the show to know…but there has been quite a bit of one on one action with women. In the first few seasons just about any brothel scene showed women all over each other…once scene was rather specific, I remember it being a bit more information than I wanted to know.

      Maybe bi-sexuality was a big thing back in the time represented by GRRM in ASoIaF…..I just don’t know that to be the case at all. Tell your BFF to pour a big ol’ alcoholic beverage, sit back and just enjoy the show for what it is. There will always more time and places for waving the LGBT flag.

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    197. On a totally unrelated note:

      “If you don’t highlight, right click and copy your post before posting every comment and you think you aren’t going to lose it? You haven’t been paying attention.”

      Just sayin’.

        Quote  Reply

    198. JCDavis: Whereas in book, he was a very great knight, the Knight of Flowers.

      It’s just words in the books. He was a very good jouster, and we see that in the first book. After that, people just talk about what a great jouster he is, and how he and Renley were “special” friends. Other than that, however, he has next to zero character development in the book: he’s just a very pretty face who is good with a lance. Other than defeating the Mountain (in part by using a mare in heat), we never see Loras do anything particularly “knightly” in the book. (He does whine and sulk about Renley, but that was more petulant heartbroken teenager than anything else.)

      tyjon: She doesn’t like D&D’s negative portrayal of Loras and felt the show runner’s are anti-freedom.

      I would say the fact that the showrunners choose to use persecution of gays by the church says very much the opposite. Of the myriad ways in which you can show religious people being bad people, they chose that one: and they would not have done that if they were “anti-freedom”! (Unless, of course, religion was being portrayed in an otherwise positive light: but that really is not the case.)

      Also, I really fail to see how the show’s portrayal of Loras is “negative.” He is not well-developed, but he certainly is nowhere near as vile an individual as most of the heterosexual men on the show!

        Quote  Reply

    199. JCDavis: “If you don’t highlight, right click and copy your post before posting every comment and you think you aren’t going to lose it? You haven’t been paying attention.”

      You just have to refresh, and then click continue. Then your post will still be posted.

        Quote  Reply

    200. Boudica: You just have to refresh, and then click continue. Then your post will still be posted.

      Actually, that doesn’t work for me. I DO use the back button every time the site “times out” for posting. But the post is gone. So I have learned now to just copy it before hitting the “post comment” button. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    201. Wimsey,

      I too read the books and I came away with a different viewpoint on Loras. I got that he was a “Knight” in every sense of the word…. I think it is Sansa who speaks so gushingly about him….can’t remember whose point of view it was, back in the first couple of books Sansa wasn’t a POV character. From the show….pretty much all I got was that Loras is gay, loved Renley and loved to play with Olyvar. The whole “marriage to Cersie thing”…I mean who believed that was going to happen? *crickets*

      We came away with something different from books. I remember it taking me a bit to reconcile that show Loras wasn’t going to be book Loras. The book Loras as “I” remember him. Then again….it may be time for me to read the books again. *faints* I think I would rather read the HP series for the umpteenth time.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Deesensfan,

      Dreesenfan, Budica Queen of the Amazon warriors, Milady… Since I have all the Game of Thrones in Blu-ray I will have to take a look at that Bran scene, also, I incessantly look for foreshadowing on past episodes, of note. Episode 3 season 3, Mance, Jon, Ygritte, come across dead horse heads mutilated by whitewalkers on a ice a covered mountain in a pattern, you remember, Mance made a remark to Jon, anyway, the pattern of the dead horse heads are the Targaryen sidgel of the Dragon. I’m also trying to figure out how to reply on this awesome fan site!! Apologies

        Quote  Reply

    203. JCDavis: I think it is Sansa who speaks so gushingly about him….can’t remember whose point of view it was, back in the first couple of books Sansa wasn’t a POV character

      Sansa has been a PoV character since Thrones: 14 of her 24 chapters (or 25 now) come from the first two books. Although Sansa was not a protagonist in the last story, she is one of six protagonists remaining from the first book.

      Now, it is true that Sansa gushes over Loras: but Sansa at that point judges books solely by the covers. Loras looks like a Knight, just as Cersei looks like the Good Queen. Even in the third book, she’s still assuming that because Loras looks the part of the Gallant Knight, he must be that. Of course, Sansa wakes up just a touch when she realizes that Loras has no memory of her, despite having given her a rose at the Hand’s tourney. That and a couple of other scenes make him seem vain and self-centered, although I acknowledge that he is so weakly developed that we really do not have much evidence about what his character really is.

        Quote  Reply

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