Lena Headey and more discuss Cersei’s Walk and Myrcella in the Game of Thrones season finale

Cersei and the Septas

One of the major moments in this Sunday’s season finale of Game of Thrones was Cersei being subjected to a public walk of atonement. Lena Headey, David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and David Nutter talk about the dramatic event in several interviews. The show writers also address the surprising death of Cersei’s daughter Myrcella.

“I don’t think anyone deserves that treatment,” Lena Headey tells EW, discussing her character’s public torment. “She’s been beaten and starved and humiliated. She thinks when she comes out and confesses that this is it—even when she’s on her knees [confessing to the High Sparrow], she’s partly lying. She thinks she’s good to go. She has no idea what’s coming when she walks out to the steps, or that they’re going to shave her hair off like Aslan,” referencing The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.

The haircut made a significant difference for Headey. She says in Vulture of her usual Cersei hairstyle, “If I put the wig on, that’s massive. That’s an immediate feeling. It’s really important. What was slightly daunting was what was going to be taken away. It can change how you feel, but it can’t change how she is.”

Director David Nutter says in the Hollywood Reporter that the Walk is the scene he was most worried about getting right in the finale. He says:

I wanted to get a sense of being with her as much as possible and you go through this walk with her. The extras in Dubrovnik were incredible with their responses and reactions to her. They reacted to her as the queen going into Flea Bottom, the worst part of town. This is a slum she created. Lena went on an emotional journey through it. It was a situation in which you really felt like she was in excruciating physical and emotional turmoil and pain. I felt a little bit sorry for her, which is what I was going after.

Executive producer and writer David Benioff tells Entertainment Weekly:

Watching this scene flips it all because she’s being so horrifically abused you start to feel for her. It’s almost impossible not to feel for her because she’s a human and being tormented. So what we hope is, by the last shot, is you’re almost rooting for her, in a way, and hope she gets her revenge on those who have mistreated her. That’s what it felt like to me when The Mountain picks her up and you see that glint in her eye.

Benioff adds that:

Cersei is a much trickier character she’s got more fury in her than Jaime. She’s a complicated woman. But I never saw her as a villain so much as somebody who’s just neurotically protective of her children and somebody who’s been just so abused in her relationships with men—whether it’s her father or her husband. She’s someone who’s furious at the role she’s forced to play and has a lot of anger.”

Jaime and Myrcella's deathCersei’s strong feelings about her children will remain a focal point no doubt in season 6, given the events of the finale with Myrcella dying in Jaime’s arms just as the duo were sailing away from Dorne.

Executive producer and writer D.B. Weiss addresses Cersei’s feelings in another Entertainment Weekly interview:

“It’s an act of war by the person who perpetrated it,” he says. “But I don’t think Cersei is going to be particularly interested in whose fault it was that this happened to her daughter—it happened in Dorne. She might be in a more bellicose frame of mind than usual when she finds out.”

Not only will Cersei be furious with the Dornish, but also Tyrion once again. Benioff adds, “In her mind, Myrcella was taken away from her by Tyrion; she still blames him for Joffrey’s death, and he is directly responsible for Myrcella going to Dorne. So in her worldview, both of her children’s deaths are to be laid at his doorstep. This is one more thing to motivate her homicidal hatred of him.”

Stop by Entertainment Weekly to read more of the actors and writers’ thoughts on the repercussions of Myrcella’s murder.

 

190 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. So Myrcella is also dead. Then the question is relative. Why to recast her? I thought that they gave Myrcella’s role to Nell Free Tiger because they have two seasons in mind… Hm!

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    2. The walk of shame transcended all my expectations
      Probably the single most perfectly executed sequence from the books to date. Nutter, Headey (and her body double) blew it out of the water.

      Of course I can go and freeze frame and see where Lena’s head has been superimposed onto another body, but thats not how the sequence is meant to be experienced.

      I can’t wait to see where the character goes next

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    3. HelloThere,

      I think everyone will be routing for Cersei next season after the Walk of Shame, when it comes to getting back at those Sparrows for sure.

      I can’t wait to see what she does to them, also can’t wait to see Zombie Mountain slash some people in half, hopefully some religious nuts.

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    4. Arthur: think everyone will be routing for Cersei next season after the Walk of Shame, when it comes to getting back at those Sparrows for sure.

      Well, I will not be rooting for Cersei. I will always be rooting against her. But from now, I am also equally rooting against the Sparrows. From the finale, I started to see a clear parallel between the Sons of the Harpy in Meereen and the Sparrows in King’s Landing, and I want both groups to burn.

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    5. When I read that section in the book, I honestly cheered. Yes, she gets her comeuppance. But watching it – oh man, that poor woman. No one deserved that. Lena was amazing, as was the double (its funny I didn’t notice the bad photo shops during the actual walk, until I saw the stills. Ya know, I think it was still pretty awesome)

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    6. Show! Cersei is my favourite character in everything ever I love her and Benioff’s quote about her made me very happy that we see her the same

      Powerful rage Cersei time!

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    7. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      I would hope the emmy folks wouldn’t penalize her for being pregnant which as I understand it is why the double was used extensively. But I will NEVER root for Cersei. She is a crazy bitch. I would have preferred the Sparrows slit her throat and been done with her and I suspect they’ll realize that was a mistake as well. I expect her to be full on Mad Queen next year. Aerys with tits. Nobody deserves that walk though.

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    8. Dinklage won the emmy for his one conversation with Shae about Tysha.

      Lena’s acting throughout that episode from beginning to end was superb.
      Nutter really outdid himself. That execution of the entire sequence is even more impressive now that I know that they had to resort to a body double.

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    9. Walk of Shame was imo the best scene in the finale.Utterly brilliant work by cast and crew.Emmy for Lena!

      Well done.

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    10. It’s amazing how Game of Thrones turns us into would be homicidal maniacs: kill all those Sparrows, Harpies, Boltons, watchmen etc… 🙂

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    11. LordDavos:
      It’s amazing how Game of Thrones turns us into would be homicidal maniacs: kill all those Sparrows, Harpies, Boltons, watchmen etc…

      I must say the face the High Sparrow made when they stripped Cersei was kinda creppy when he looked at her like he was enjoying it.

      I imagined fromthe books he would be more stern, stone faced not caring….

      This TV show HS is going for the pure villain route much faster.

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    12. So I’ve been critical of Cersei’s arrest – because it was underplayed, wasted, and a thousand times better in the books. But they handled this brilliantly. Truly. It was great.

      The whole episode, overall, was brilliant. But there were problems of course. Like Dorne. Always Dorne. Whoever wrote Dorne should be fired. Especially if it was D and D.

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    13. Clob:
      Kay,

      I hadn’t personally thought about that correlation, but now that you bring it up, you’re right.

      I hadn’t made that correlation before the finale, but when I start to rewatch the entire season later this week or next, I think it will be made clearer from the very beginning of the season.

      Cersei’s Brain:
      Kay,

      And what about the R’hllor, Lord of Light worshipers? All pretty fanatic…

      What do you mean, “All”? Melissandre is not “all.” Thoros of Myr seemed a pretty chilled dude. The Red Priestess a Volantis (Rila Fukushima) wasn’t burning people or fanatical. 1 out of 3 doesn’t mean a whole group is bad.

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    14. The Walk was perfect. They absolutely brought that to life onscreen, not just visually but emotionally. It was one time when I truly pitied Cersei, despite all the terrible things she’s done.

      It also took a lot of guts to go through with something like that so I have to give Lena and her double (let’s not forget her, whoever she is) major props for their sheer bravery. Well done.

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    15. Brandon One Eye,

      I would hope the emmy folks wouldn’t penalize her for being pregnant which as I understand it is why the double was used extensively.

      Her use of a body double had nothing to do with her pregnancy and everything to do with it being a public nude scene filmed over 3 days with hundreds of extras. You would be hard pressed to find any actress(or actor) who would be willing to film a scene like that.

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    16. This is quite off topic to this article, but Doesn’t the fact that season 6 happening before book 6 bother GRRM at all? I mean yes the show is not the books, but I am sure they know some material that he had planned for book 6 that we may see in the season… also may reduce interest in book 6 for some?
      I don’t know. I just wonder.

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    17. It’s been a while since I read the chapter… Well, probably since about five days after the book was released to be more specific. I just read a wiki summary and I’d forgotten about her hallucinating and seeing the faces of Tywin, Tyrion, Ned, etc. and Maggy the Frog repeating her prophecy. That may have added to the scene a bit better than a prostitute waving her stuff or a dude showing his junk. I suppose it was difficult enough as is though.

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    18. Hoyti Von Totiy

      Book HS was more one-note throughout. Show HS was more affable on the surface to begin with, drawing everyone in, and then gradually showed a darker side. KL will get very ugly next season. Cersei will strike back, if she can.

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    19. Dragonboner: Didn’t even think about that Tyrion part. That’s pretty layered and I like it.

      I was thinking the same thing.

      dothrakian raven: I thought that they gave Myrcella’s role to Nell Free Tiger because they have two seasons in mind… Hm!

      They probably gave it to her because she won the auditions. It really doesn’t matter how small the part is: you give it to the best person available.

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    20. Robb Snow,

      What was Lena brave about? I’m not going to criticize her for not doing the nudity but the only person who deserves praise for having “guts” or “bravery” would be the woman who played the body double.

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    21. The funny part was when the High Sparrow referred to the rabble as the “good people of the City”. At which point the “good people of the City” began to yell obscenities at Cersei, throw rotten food at her, spit on her, grab at her, and expose themselves to her.
      >
      The HS and his bitch Septas are such phonies. Can’t wait for them to go down. IMO, the walk lasted a little too long – Lena was great, but the ‘atonement walk’ could have been a little shorter ………… which would have allowed more time for Jon’s ‘traitor walk” since that may be the last time we ever see him – although even saying that out loud sounds so ridiculous, preposterous, ludicrous, unthinkable, insane and just plain crazy. Come back Jon Snow.

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    22. Brandon One Eye:
      Hoyti Von Totiy,

      I would hope the emmy folks wouldn’t penalize her for being pregnant which as I understand it is why the double was used extensively.

      I’ll keep commenting on it until I quit reading it. This scene was filmed the first week of October… Lena is due the first week of July… (9 months apart) She may have not been pregnant yet and/or most likely didn’t know she was yet.

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    23. Deesensfan: Doesn’t the fact that season 6 happening before book 6 bother GRRM at all?

      It does in the general sense that GRRM has expressed frustration that he has not finished the book yet. Remember, when they started doing this in 2008, GRRM was positive that the book series would be done by now. After all, Dragons was coming out in the next year, and he usually took a 2-3 years between books, so they were looking at 2015 for the release of the final book at the latest.

      Mice, men & Martin!

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    24. josh,

      You are right. The Maggie’s crown reference and the recast pointed to an extended Myrcella plot. My idea was that somehow Doran would have suspected Ellaria’s actions and he would have provided Trystane with some antidote just in case. At the same time Ellaria’s long kiss left no illusions as to what was to come and I am sure Doran got the message. If this is really the case and Myrcella is dead-dead then it is very possible that he also is behind her death. However the way they filmed M’s death scene (the second of the three death scenes) was ambiguous and left room for speculations. But as it is they confirm her death as death-death. So not a cliffhanger there too. Hm, again.

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    25. Deesensfan:
      This is quite off topic to this article, but Doesn’t the fact that season 6 happening before book 6 bother GRRM at all?

      Nothing like some truckloads of money from HBO to scratch that particular itch.

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    26. JamesL,

      It looked to me like Lena did do all of the closeup shots (and do correct me if I’m wrong about that). I’m not saying she was “braver” than her double necessarily but it still seems like it was really harrowing scene to shoot, even if she wasn’t really nude. It takes guts either way.

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    27. Clob,

      I’m a little concerned that people don’t seem to be aware of the gestation period for a human being, but I suppose I should just give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they keep forgetting that this wasn’t filmed last week. 😉

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    28. Deesensfan,

      Maybe it bothers him, but its his own bloody fault. Too much time has passed, he could have had it done by now. Way back when, before the show, Neil Gaiman wrote an essay to fans entitled ‘George RR Martin is not your Bitch’. At the time I agreed with him – there are many reasons why a writer chooses not to write and fans shouldn’t have any expectations of what the author does. Now tho, after many years have passed without a book in sight, I am not so sure. I think he has not only done a disservice to his fans, but to his own story, by not having WOW ready by now.

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    29. Robb Snow,

      Yes, she did all the closeup shots.
      The power of the performance if still mostly with her.
      But this scene was a masterpiece of collaboration on ALL fronts.

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    30. If I were him I would have been working my ass off to get the next book out at least before season 6. By the time it begins airing it will have been around two years of him knowing what they would be filming for season 5. Specifically, being caught up with the published material. I have to think that a lot of his book sales have been from people that normally wouldn’t buy and read the books but have been too impatient to wait for the show. If I see season 6 before the next book comes out I’ll be far less excited to read it. I will of course, but I bet a lot of people don’t.

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    31. ash,

      I agree
      I am not a book reader… but I hope that my fellow bookreader GOT fans can get some answers in season 6
      Do book readers think that maybe hardhome was included as a way to end jon’s story?

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    32. Pigeon:
      Clob,

      I’m a little concerned that people don’t seem to be aware of the gestation period for a human being, but I suppose I should just give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they keep forgetting that this wasn’t filmed last week.

      That reminds me of the Friends episode with Brooke Shields playing the crazy fan that thinks Joey’s Dr. Drake Ramoray character is real and the tv is showing live events.

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    33. Deesensfan: But isn’t it his fault his book isn’t finished? He cant be frustrated.

      Have you never been frustrated with yourself? I know that I have been frustrated with myself on projects that I felt should have been done long before they were!

      Arthur: But don’t you think GRRM shares with D&D everything he has wrote, involving GoT up to this point?

      Plus all his outlines?

      Well, he and they both have said that this was done/is being done. After all, they had to plan out the whole series, and they seemingly started doing that back in 2009.

      However, GRRM wanted people to be watching an adaptation of an existing book, not an adaptation of an outline he had!

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    34. Wimsey,

      I know however,

      The complexity and descriptiveness of GRRM books are… Astonishing! I can see why it takes him forever to write them, they are such a heavy and in-depth read.

      The TV show on the other hand is dumbed down, so I think GRRM’s core outlines and important PoV meetings and conversation points will be all D&D really need to make a decent adaptation.

      The TV show is basically an adaptive rough sketch to the highly detailed picture GRRM paints.

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    35. And here I thought writing a massive multi-layered story required patience and creativity. Now I find out that you can just sit at a desk for x hours a day and wrap everything up in a satisfactory manner by a certain deadline.

      I’d rather the next book come out in 2020 than feel like it was done under too much pressure to give a hurried resolution for a bunch of people who don’t know shit.

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    36. Pigeon,

      I am not saying it should be rushed to satisfy his fans
      I am just playing devil’s advocate. I mean if I were him, I would have rather have had my book come out before it is ruined and revealed with the show. Even though it is not going to be exactly the same.

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    37. I hope that Cersei starts a war with Dorne over Myrcella’s death and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are the first casualties. I’m not sure why valuable screen time was wasted on silly fight scenes, naked jail time and passive aggressive discussions. I’m a reader who enjoyed the Dorne chapters. I’m still puzzled about the choices made in the show. It was a disaster.

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    38. I was worried about this scene. Thought it would either be disappointing, or super offensive again. But they nailed it, and Lena Headey KILLED it. I even liked the “shame, shame, ding-a-ling” septa (a hilarious touch, in an otherwise disturbing scene).

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    39. I read several places that the pregnancy effected the shooting of the nude scenes. Maybe those writers don’t know what the hell they are talking about but even if the pregnancy had zero to do with anything I think the criticism of Lena for not doing it all is a little ridiculous especially from behind the safety of your keyboards.

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    40. Sad about Myrcella, i was looking forward to Nell Tiger Free getting some meaty stuff in Kings Landing, she’s great in a few things ive seen her in

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    41. So Myrcella is definately dead (why the recast?! It’s not as if she had more than a handful of lines and was pretty much a featured extra). Am I the only one seeing this as making no sense at all!? The Sand Snakes were by far the worst thing about this season by a country mile and their stupidity as characters was concluded in the last episode. Why posion someone so close to your own shore when they can just turn around and come back? Also why put the life of the heir to your kingdom in danger as Trystane is now a hostage. I hope they all die and quickly in the next season as they’re cartoonish villains which have really tarnished the otherwise very polished nature of the show. Oberyn would be spinning in his grave. Here’s hoping Jaime goes Castamere on the whole of Dorne!

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    42. TheTouchOfFrost,

      This bothers me somewhat as well, but as we’ve seen all season Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are very shortsighted and motivated purely by hate. They’re hellbent on forcing a conflict between Dorne and King’s Landing and seem to be willing to risk their own lives to make it happen.

      I expect they’ll be going into hiding after poisoning Myrcella, if they want to live to see another day. They might want to get right on that in fact in case the ship anchors and Jaime and co. head back.

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    43. Deesensfan,

      Do book readers think that maybe hardhome was included as a way to end jon’s story?

      Possibly, or they wanted to show the viewers what ‘Winter is coming’ really means. In the book Hardhome happens off stage. The brothers just hear about it. But this way with Jon as a witness, they can see that Jon is correct in letting the Wildings in. Too bad that Jon either couldn’t get this across to his Brothers, or that his brothers were too pigheaded to listen.

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    44. Brandon One Eye,

      Exactly.Not sure if you were around about a week ago when a bunch of little boys were screaming about her not doing the walk herself, that it would ruin the scene if she didn’t and it didn’t matter what she preferred. Not pretty. They seem to have either shut up or slinked away since then.

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    45. Deesensfan:
      Wimsey,

      Of course, but hes chosing not to finish it. When I want to finish something, I lock myself in my office and finish it.

      You say that like it’s something he could do in a weekend if he just buckled down.

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    46. ash,

      No I mean showing hardhome was away to show us Jon as a hero, but more bringing attention the threat of the WW, and that the Night King is on his way… and then Jon dies and then someone else has to take over and continue leading the fight against winter.

      Delta1212,

      Um no that’s not what I am saying at all…
      Anyway I just did a google search and there was two years between each book, except 5 years for book 4 and 6 years for book 5… so ADWD was published in 2011, its only been four years… but what I was saying was that in 2011, he already knew the show was being created and that the possibility of the show passing his story books was going to happen. And here we are. I was wondering if it didn’t bother him that his story could get ruined and the excitement for book six goes down if season 6 comes out first.

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    47. Arthur: The complexity and descriptiveness of GRRM books are… Astonishing! I can see why it takes him forever to write them, they are such a heavy and in-depth read.

      Many, many authors write in just as much or more detail and in much less time. If you look at the last couple of Booker award winners, you will find the density and intensity of the stories to be much greater: and most of those authors crank out a book a year.

      Moreover, GRRM has a lot of needless detail. His words per unit information ratio is pretty low, and there are whole chapters that don’t say much. Now, not everyone needs to be Hemingway: but too much of the problem (particularly in the last two books) was gratuitous world-building.

      But the other thing to remember is that this is an apples and oranges comparison anyway. Much of the “detail” that books have to use to paint a picture are no different than the details that go into costumes, props, hair, etc., on screen. Page and screen simply require fundamentally different devices to paint a scene. We should fault screen for leaving out the details that books need no more than we should fault books for leaving out all of the details that screen needs.

      Arthur: The TV show on the other hand is dumbed down, so I think GRRM’s core outlines and important PoV meetings and conversation points will be all D&D really need to make a decent adaptation.

      That is a common complaint, but it really isn’t. Streamlining ≠ dumbed down. Moreover, fans are very hypocritical about this: after all, anything that the TV show does not show or tell in explicit detail is criticized here as being vague. How much discussion was there here about who the “handsome young man” was that Lancel offered to Olenna? I seriously doubt that Joe and Jane viewer had any question about who it was. We have people calling Stannis’ death vague: and yet how often have we seen the exact same cinematic technique used for that type of execution on TV and films?

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    48. Delta1212: You say that like it’s something he could do in a weekend if he just buckled down.

      A weekend? Hardly. It takes me a good 4-6 weeks of intense work to finish a project, which is probably about equivalent to doing a couple of character storylines in one of his books. And you cannot do that indefinitely: I am pretty wiped after I finish a project. However, it can be done: it is just a matter of discipline and not not doing a thing!

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    49. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Man, that scene hurt. I feel as though Myrcella could have really been someone who genuinely cared about Jaime with no motive. He needed that, and it was snatched away. Nell really started showing the good actress she is, it’s a shame. Did we need a reason to hate the 4 Stooges more? No, but I don’t think they will go unpunished very long.

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    50. mariamb: I hope that Cersei starts a war with Dorne over Myrcella’s death and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are the first casualties.

      Well, if Ellaria and the Sandsnakes go back to Dorne, then they won’t be the first casualties of any war: Doran will already have published them in pieces.

      Doran doesn’t give third chances. Ellaria killed Myrcella and (probably) doomed her nephew, which more than costs a chance. Yet she took an antidote for the poison, which means that she intends to live. Why do that if she is going to return for an execution?

      I would bet that Ellaria might be going towards some different allies at this point…..

      *cue Jeopardy music*

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    51. Wimsey: Well, if Ellaria and the Sandsnakes go back to Dorne, then they won’t be the first casualties of any war…

      When did Ellaria and the Sand Snakes leave Dorne?

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    52. mariamb,

      They almost certainly are leaving after that last scene. There is a death sentence on them if they stay. The questions I would ask now are, where are they going, and are they fleeing to anyone who would really like to see Dorne take on the Lannisters right now. I can think of two obvious alternatives!

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    53. Robb Snow,

      Pigeon,

      I think they’re pretty disposable now. Doran won’t want them about now they’ve endagered his son and they’re recklessness is spoiling his master plan. I reckon Ellaria will be dead within the first couple of episodes of next season. That’s the only way I can see the SS being brought into the fold by Doran and being trusted enough to go and carry out orders for him. Even then it would be a stretch.

      mariamb,

      I was very critical of the Sand Snakes before the season started but hoped my cynicism would be proved wrong. Unfortunately they’ve been worse than anyone dared imagine. I don’t want to put the blame solely on the actresses but I think those in charge need to shoulder a lot of the blame. I’m a fan of what D&D do a lot of the time and think they are generally doing a great job adapting but this again proves that the weakest elements of the show are when they stray too far from the original material. They need to do what they do best and streamline and weave characters in effectively (as we saw with Tyrion and Sansa this season). The Sand Snakes and Brienne as well as Littlefingers daft reasons for taking Sansa to Winterfell have been my major gripes this season.
      I guess we should just be thankful no major characters were lost to the Dornish swill. Jaime and Bronn did their best along with Doran and Myrcella and Ellaria when they got the chance but they had so little to work with.
      Again, how on earth did Bronn survive this season?! People were writing him off before it even started!

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    54. Is this a Dornish ship or just a commercial shuttle? If it’s a Dornish ship, it’s entire possible Jaime storms above decks to find Bronn in chains and about 10 spears pointed at his chest, with Trystane smirking at him.

      “Sorry, Kingslayer. My father had a different bride for me in mind. My lovely aunt accelerated the plan, but your daughter was always going to die in an accident. My true bride is another…

      Cut to Dany, doing whatever she is doing next season.

      Meh, I’m sick of trying to save Dorne. They had one job and it wasn’t the stupid Sand Snakes. It was Doran’s Viper-Grass speech.

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    55. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Agree with all of this, Frosty. I do like Bronn, and was wondering if that bite on the ear was a death knell too.

      Doran is such a potentially dangerous character. I would be happy to never see the others again.

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    56. TheTouchOfFrost: I reckon Ellaria will be dead within the first couple of episodes of next season. That’s the only way I can see the SS being brought into the fold by Doran and being trusted enough to go and carry out orders for him.

      Why do you think that they plan to let Doran catch them? My bet is that they will be in another camp (or vanished) quickly enough.

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    57. WorfWWorfington: Meh, I’m sick of trying to save Dorne. They had one job and it wasn’t the stupid Sand Snakes. It was Doran’s Viper-Grass speech.

      Dorne’s sole job was to be the backdrop for Jaime’s story. And although it was the worst of the storylines, in the very end, we got Jaime’s particular “kill the boy and let the man be born” story. It was just very different in delivery from what I expected.

      My bet is that we have a setup for a new plotline next year, too. After all, we should be expecting to see Dorne go to war against the Lannisters in Winter.

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    58. Roose On The Loose,
      Wimsey,

      This is supposition. We don’t know that they will not stroll back into Sunspear and explain that Myrcella was prone to nose bleeds. Honestly, if they send Ellaria elsewhere to whip up support for the eventual Targaryen invasion, I will scream. Presumably she would need to do that with Doran’s support. And if that’s the plan, then let’s just let Doran do it. Why did they hire Siddig for the minimal screen time that he received?

      TheTouchOfFrost,

      I think that Ellaria is doomed, too. Of the Sand Snakes, I believe that…

      Tyene may survive and head to KL to eventually poison someone…Tommen maybe.

      Dorne was poorly conceived and poorly executed. If we get more of it next season, then it needs to focus on Doran and not the Darkstar Sisterhood. They have time to correct this season’s mistakes.

        Quote  Reply

    59. WorfWWorfington:
      Meh, I’m sick of trying to save Dorne. They had one job and it wasn’t the stupid Sand Snakes. It was Doran’s Viper-Grass speech.

      Exactly!

      If it was used to prop up Jaime’s story line, then it failed. I’m not interested in more material for Dorne next season if it means being subjected to Ellaria and her vengeful posturing. There is too little time and too much story to tell. I imagine that Trystane will become the face of Dorne in KL as he sits around waiting for Dany to show up.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Finishing tWoW can’t be a very high priority for GRRM given all the other projects he is busy with. From his blog on June 10th:

      “Life is impossibly busy right now. I am wrestling with the Son of Kong (that is, working on THE WINDS OF WINTER), trying to wrap up a final round of edits and revisions on the twenty-third Wild Cards book (HIGH STAKES), developing three new series concepts for HBO and Cinemax, hiring writers and directors for three short low-budget films I am hoping to produce based on some classic SF short stories (more on that in the months to come), making my way through the Hugo Packet to prepare to vote, looking forward to opening JURASSIC WORLD at the Cocteay and to hosting a ten-author special event for the release of Steve Stirling’s new “Emberverse” anthology, THE CHANGE. In a week’s time, we’ll be flying off to Europe for long-planned appearances in Germany (Hamburg) and Sweden (Stockholm), en route to Archipelacon on the island of Aland, where I am to be the Guest of Honor…”

        Quote  Reply

    61. Clob: I’d forgotten about her hallucinating and seeing the faces of Tywin, Tyrion, Ned, etc. and Maggy the Frog repeating her prophecy.

      I didn’t remember that.

      Clob: That may have added to the scene a bit better than a prostitute waving her stuff or a dude showing his junk.

      but I remembered this.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Pigeon,

      I wondered that but if they wanted Bronn dead it would have happened in the jail cell…then again not a lot of what they do makes any sense.

      Wimsey,

      Depends on how long it takes them to find out about Myrcella. I’d imagine Jaime and Bronn aren’t turning that boat around if she’s already dead. They’ll take Trystane to KL as a hostage which is when Doran will find out. Honestly don’t know what they’ll do with the SS now. If they’re not part of Doran’s masterplan then tehy really have no value. If they flee then where too?! HAving Jaime, Bronn and/or Areo take up Obara and Balon Swann’s story from the books seems a dead end and poor use for the characters. Only good thing from a story standpoint in this is that it will drive the appropriate wedge between Jaime and Cersei. Doesn’t it also make a mockery of Maggy the Frogs prophecy as I thouhg Myrcella had to be crowned before dying?!

      mariamb,

      I don’t see much point in one going to Oldtown now. Honestly don’t know what they’re thinking with this anymore. Dorne as a faction is very confused.

        Quote  Reply

    63. TheTouchOfFrost,

      I didn’t suggest Oldtown…agree that there is no point in that. I said KL.

      I agree that it will drive a wedge between Jaime and Cersei. She will blame him for not getting Myrcella out safely. And there will be some discussion about how Myrcella accepted him as her father, etc. Regardless, Jaime will leave KL.

      Doesn’t it also make a mockery of Maggy the Frogs prophecy as I thouhg Myrcella had to be crowned before dying?!

      There has always been that debate about whether “crowns” had two meanings: their golden Lannister hair (rather than black Baratheon hair) or actually being named king/queen. Regardless of what happens in the books, the show seems to be using the “hair” definition. Obviously, Tommen is up next.

        Quote  Reply

    64. mariamb: Obviously, Tommen is up next.

      mariambQuote Reply

      Most likely, I’m sad Myrcella went first, was looking forward to seeing if they married her too Margery too

        Quote  Reply

    65. Wall Builder:
      Finishing tWoW can’t be a very high priority for GRRM given all the other projects he is busy with.From his blog on June 10th:

      “Life is impossibly busy right now. I am wrestling with the Son of Kong (that is, working on THE WINDS OF WINTER), trying to wrap up a final round of edits and revisions on the twenty-third Wild Cards book (HIGH STAKES), developing three new series concepts for HBO and Cinemax, hiring writers and directors for three short low-budget films I am hoping to produce based on some classic SF short stories (more on that in the months to come), making my way through the Hugo Packet to prepare to vote, looking forward to opening JURASSIC WORLD at the Cocteay and to hosting a ten-author special event for the release of Steve Stirling’s new “Emberverse” anthology, THE CHANGE. In a week’s time, we’ll be flying off to Europe for long-planned appearances in Germany (Hamburg) and Sweden (Stockholm), en route to Archipelacon on the island of Aland, where I am to be the Guest of Honor…”

      Yeah, no biggie. He gives it the odd paragraph when he’s got a moment spare.

      But no one can blame him. He’s got loads of important things to do. Like interviews, and writing new books, and managing new TV shows, and thinking up other ideas for other works he can do after he finishes tWoW, but before he completes ADoS.

      Don’t worry. He’ll get around to it eventually.

        Quote  Reply

    66. mariamb: If it was used to prop up Jaime’s story line, then it failed

      It was not to “prop up” Jaime’s storyline. It was to provide him with foils. Jaime is one of the lead characters, and he needed some set of obstacles/interactions that had him demonstrate that instead of being Tywin II, he was a man who actually has a soul. The material in the book was bad in the books and would have been far worse on TV: it lingered on a completed plot line instead of setting up a generally new plot. On the other hand, we have good reason to suspect that Dorne will be important to the plot in Winter: and I would bet that we just got the segue to it.

      mariamb: Honestly, if they send Ellaria elsewhere to whip up support for the eventual Targaryen invasion, I will scream.

      And if she marches into Aegon’s camp and we learn that she has been in contact with Aegon since Oberyn’s death, and that on his behalf (or using him as an excuse) to induce the Martell’s to go to war against the Lannisters? She’s just done exactly what Aegon’s would want her to do: start a war between Dorne and the Lannisters.

      Now, we do not know that Aegon is going to be cast and used. However, the earliest that he was going to appear was Season 6: he was an incidental (and, frankly, completely unnecessary) character in Dragons, but it’s pretty clear that he is going to have a big effect on the plot (and probably induce story from one or more main characters) in Winter. IF B&W were going to bring in Aegon in Season 6, then this is the sort of thing that they should have done at the end of Season 5.

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    67. I didn’t even notice the CGI body/head/whatever. The extras were so good! That one guy who screams F OFF in her face deserves an Emmy.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Part of me hoped Myrcella would somehow still survive.

      Was anyone else as devastated by that scene as I was? The relief, the sense between the two that they are together now and can be a rock for each other to rely on, and then death?

        Quote  Reply

    69. Abyss,

      You cant be frustrated about not finishing something you aren’t making time for.

      Anyway who the hell knows whats actually going on. I haven’t even read the books yet (was planning to but may not if they ruin jons story)
      I was just playing devils advocate wondering how he feels about the show surpassing his story and possibly ruining future events from TWOW… (knowing since 2008 that the show was in the making).

        Quote  Reply

    70. Wimsey,

      As I said…whatever Dorne was supposed to provide to Jaime’s story line was a failure. Who were the foils? Ellaria…ugh? Why not more emphasis on Doran? And please stop excusing this mess by saying that “it’s better than the books” because I’m not so sure that it was. And yes, I know that you disagree and we can leave it at that.

      I understand what role Dorne *may* play going forward but I don’t believe that Aegon will be a part of it. Trystane is still around and he can fill a variety of roles.

      I agree with another poster who stated that they are tired of trying to save Dorne. It was poorly conceived and poorly executed. If we don’t return to it in S6, I won’t miss it.

        Quote  Reply

    71. mariamb,

      I am just disappointed that Alexander Siddig was so poorly used. But it may be a better idea just to let the Dorne piece go next season (will still have Trystane in KL)

        Quote  Reply

    72. Cersei is a much trickier character she’s got more fury in her than Jaime. She’s a complicated woman. But I never saw her as a villain so much as somebody who’s just neurotically protective of her children and somebody who’s been just so abused in her relationships with men—whether it’s her father or her husband. She’s someone who’s furious at the role she’s forced to play and has a lot of anger.”

      Wow, this is exactly how I feel about Cersei. For all the hate she gets I’m glad to learn there’s people who share my point of view.

      Truth be told Cersei has been one of my favorite characters since I discovered this series. I never read books one or two. Only read the third one after season two ended since I was so into this world that I needed to know what was going to happen next, it may be that she really was less likable in the books than she is in the tv show and I never got to see that side of her, i suppose.

      With characters like the Boltons who indulge in flaying people alive, her own son who was a sadistic brat, Robert who despite being considered a “goodie” did many more hateful things, Theon, Daenerys, Robb, Catelin, Ned, all of them have wronged others. And Stannis, without even mentioning the burning of his own daughter let’s not forget he killed his brother after promising a safe night before the battle and all those people he burned alive just for not following his god (something Cersei has never being even close to do) and yet before this season, Stannis was considered a better person than her.

      Of course she is flawed but in my mind she is not the monster that many people consider her to be.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Deesensfan:
      Ravyn,

      Dinklage didn’t do much emmy worthy stuff this year. I mean, hes really good… the focus on this year are others
      I find the emmys snubs the show a lot though.

      He won it in S1 for one scene, so he could possibly get a nom again just for his scene with Dany (and, who knows? His ‘cock merchant’ scene). I think the Emmy just likes familiar names, and HBO pushes Dinklage a lot to voters. There are any number of actors who’ve never gotten their due recognition, notably Maisie Williams who’s never been nominated despite arguably giving the best performance. That said, I think S2-S3 was when Dinklage really slipped into Tyrion’s skin and had his best material while at King’s Landing.

        Quote  Reply

    74. mariamb: As I said…whatever Dorne was supposed to provide to Jaime’s story line was a failure. Who were the foils? Ellaria…ugh?

      Ultimately, Myrcelle, the threats on her life and (of all things) her being in love with Trystane were the foils. And although it was slow to unwind, in the end, we got a brand new Jaime. (In the end, we pretty much have a brand new everyone: although I preferred the old not-dead Jon…. :cry:)

      Try looking at it this way. Instead of assuming that what Ellaria did is stupid, instead assume that it was tactical. Now we have several questions. What tactics and who’s strategies did Ellaria advance by those actions? Who would benefit from what Ellaria did? Who might be able to protect Ellaria from both Doran & Trystane on one hand and the Lannisters on the other hand?

      If Ellaria was simply hell-bent on revenge and did not care if it cost her her life, then she would not have wiped off the lipstick. And instead of assuming that she is just dumb and didn’t have a plan for escaping, instead ask if maybe, just maybe, she had a larger plan in this, then what might that be?

        Quote  Reply

    75. Eleanor,

      I loved the scene between Jaime and Myrcella, and I found the sudden and cruel end to their newly-acknowledged father-daughter relationship to be extremely sad. In general, Myrcella’s death seems to have gotten a bit overlooked amidst the chaos that happened in the rest of the finale, particularly up North. That’s understandable – Myrcella was definitely a minor character, and the general dissatisfaction that many people have voiced (loudly and often) with the Dornish storyline undoubtedly colored the moment to a certain degree. But I still think it’s a shame.

      I thought that Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Nell Tiger Free played that scene beautifully from beginning to end. Jaime’s awkward attempts to find the right words. Myrcella warmly assuring him that she knew everything and accepted him as her father. Their first (and last) real embrace. Myrcella’s sudden confusion and Jaime’s growing panic as she collapsed. It all worked for me. With the possible exception of Jaime and Bronn’s banter on the beach, I thought it was the best scene in the entire Dornish arc. Some will sneer that’s a low bar to clear, and I won’t necessarily fight them all that hard. But I thought this particular scene worked on every level.

      When the camera cut back to Ellaria and the Sand Snakes standing on the dock, I was deeply angry at them for destroying that nascent bond. After being mostly sympathetic to Ellaria’s enduring grief for Oberyn – if not the rage it engendered – I really hoped that she would drop dead on the docks. Being willing to die for the sake of her petty revenge on an innocent girl? That would have garnered her a grudging measure of respect on my part for her level of commitment. But as it turns out, she wasn’t willing to make that sacrifice. Alas. Maybe Doran will have her executed for burning her second chance, especially if Trystane suffers a similar fate at Cersei’s vengeful hands.

      Of course, the reveal that Myrcella had been poisoned was the necessary anchor to the scene from a plot perspective. In keeping with Maggy’s prophecy, I think most people assumed that Myrcella was eventually fated to die. But if the show had cut away from that cabin before the blood started streaming from her nose, I would have been perfectly happy. The moment would have comfortably ranked among the sweetest and most genuine scenes in Game of Thrones history. That’s a short list, to be sure, but a worthy one.

      When we first learned that Jaime would be traveling to Dorne in order to retrieve Myrcella, I really hoped he would be forced to confront his conflicted feelings about being Myrcella’s real father. We didn’t see quite as much of that exploration as I would have liked, but I’m very glad that the show gave us that one moment of connection … even if it ended in tragedy.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Wimsey: What tactics and who’s strategies did Ellaria advance by those actions? Who would benefit from what Ellaria did? Who might be able to protect Ellaria from both Doran & Trystane on one hand and the Lannisters on the other hand?

      So she’s been bonking Littlefinger on the side and is now off to the Vale! I love it!

        Quote  Reply

    77. I find it funny that people who spend all day posting here are chiding a 66 year old man with more money that the gods could count for not not letting himself get distracted from the work they want him to do.

      GRRM can do whatever the hell he pleases at a pace of his choice, and owes us nothing.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Not sure how it will pan out but I will be a little disappointed if Jamie turns up in Kings landing in episode 1/2 to tell Cersei that Myrcella is dead and to introduce Trystane Martell! I don’t think Trystane’s character (or the actor playing him) is developed enough to be a standalone character in Kings Landing and was very much dependent on the relationship dynamic he had with Myrcella. I certainly will not miss the teen love story angle.

      Perhaps they could have moved up Jamie and Doran’s meeting to episode 8, had Myrcella poisoned in episode 9 and dealt with the aftermath in the season finale. As it stands if Jamie returns to Dorne he will not be back in Kings Landing until at least episode 4.

      I can’t see Jamie using Trystane as a hostage because it would be tantamount to declaring war with Dorne as Cersei would end up having Trystane killed just as Ellaria did Myrcella.
      They mentioned Tyrion being blamed but after Dorne, Jamie is likely to take most of the blame in Cersei’s eyes and this will most likely affect an already fragile relationship.

      I can’t imagine the Tyrells or Kevin Lannister supporting Cersei if she declares war on Dorne.

      To push this agenda and regain her grasp on power I think she may be the one who has Kevin killed.

      A Lannister offensive towards Dorne would also give the sand snakes or Surly, Slutty and Whippy something to do.

      With Cersei still awaiting trial and the faith militants presence I don’t think we going to see anything in the initial episodes of Season 6. We all know Cersei will react but with all that is likely to be going on in season 6; I am not sure how much time it will be given. The only storyline completed was Stannis and we still have Meereen, Dany, Oldtown, Bran, Sansa and Theon, Vale attacking Winterfell (doubt that the Boltons sustained as many casualties as Littelfinger predicted), aftermath of Jon’s assassination, Arya, Iron born, white walkers and maybe the Riverlands to figure next season.

      With Stannis dead will Dragonstone be targeted by another house? I thought because of its history and strategic value that Dany would attempt to capture it when she crossed the narrow sea. Unfortunately the Iron bank will probably foreclose on it and Littlefinger will buy it cheaply at auction! At least he has somewhere he can set up his Bond villain lair or hold his sexy parties!

      Did we ever have the three marriages we were promised or did Gilly and Sam/ Missandei and Grey Worm elope to Gretna Green/Vegas in secret. I guess with the pyramids Meereen is the closet we get to Vegas and I can’t help thinking Dany is missing a huge opportunity – come to Meereen for sun and sand, prize fights at Daznaks pit (sponsored by Mhysa’s Grill home of the charred burger and Miss Sundae dessert), cirque de unsullied, Andrew Lloyd Webber’s new hit musical ‘Harpies’ and floors of gaming at the grand pyramid hotel and casino.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Wall Builder:
      Finishing tWoW can’t be a very high priority for GRRM given all the other projects he is busy with.From his blog on June 10th:

      “Life is impossibly busy right now. I am wrestling with the Son of Kong (that is, working on THE WINDS OF WINTER), trying to wrap up a final round of edits and revisions on the twenty-third Wild Cards book (HIGH STAKES), developing three new series concepts for HBO and Cinemax, hiring writers and directors for three short low-budget films I am hoping to produce based on some classic SF short stories (more on that in the months to come), making my way through the Hugo Packet to prepare to vote, looking forward to opening JURASSIC WORLD at the Cocteay and to hosting a ten-author special event for the release of Steve Stirling’s new “Emberverse” anthology, THE CHANGE. In a week’s time, we’ll be flying off to Europe for long-planned appearances in Germany (Hamburg) and Sweden (Stockholm), en route to Archipelacon on the island of Aland, where I am to be the Guest of Honor…”

      Well he did put WOW on the top of the list ….

      But seeing this, makes me think he just doesn`t feel enthusiastic about ASOIAF anymore. He must know there are over 50% chances that at the current speed of writing he will not write the end of it.

      If it was my lifes work i wouldnt rest until it is finished.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Chad Brick:
      I find it funny that people who spend all day posting here are chiding a 66 year old man with more money that the gods could count for not not letting himself get distracted from the work they want him to do.

      GRRM can do whatever the hell he pleases at a pace of his choice, and owes us nothing.

      Better that we’re urging him to finish (which is really a compliment no matter how unkindly phrased) than to say ” OK then, do what you like, we no longer give a pink fat toss if you finish them or not” surely?

        Quote  Reply

    81. Chad Brick,

      Nah, I never chided him
      I could care less I haven’t read the books
      I just wondered if it bothered him that the seasons were coming out before he could tell the story first .

        Quote  Reply

    82. ash:
      Deesensfan,

      Maybe it bothers him, but its his own bloody fault.Too much time has passed, he could have had it done by now.Way back when, before the show, Neil Gaiman wrote an essay to fans entitled ‘George RR Martin is not your Bitch’.At the time I agreed with him – there are many reasons why a writer chooses not to write and fans shouldn’t have any expectations of what the author does.Now tho, after many years have passed without a book in sight, I am not so sure.I think he has not only done a disservice to his fans, but to his own story, by not having WOW ready by now.

      You are absolutely right as far as you go, but Gaiman was wrong for a still deeper reason as well:-

      When James Joyce was writing Finnegan’s Wake he made a deal with James Stephens (Joyce had just read Stephens’s Deirdre, to my mind the greatest Irish fantasy novel of all time) to complete it for him, if he (Joyce) should die before finishing it. Joyce didn’t give a toss about his readers – all he cared about was safeguarding his literary legacy. Of course it would be a happy side effect for the readers that they get their finished book but that’s not why Joyce did it.

      Fast forward to GRRM; the ‘American Tolkien,’ one of Time’s top 100 persons a couple of years back, the man more than any other who put the gritty realism and grey ambiguity into fantasy and, so I’d always believed, a razor sharp operator behind that bumbling, avuncular exterior. It is dispiriting beyond belief that despite all the above, he apparently doesn’t give a shit about safeguarding his literary legacy; so much so that he tells people to fuck off if they ask if he has made contingency plans for seeing the story finished if he dies. This is nothing to do with Bitches, Mr. Gaiman; GRRM should be doing it for the same reasons Joyce did – that the fans get their fix too is nothing more than happenstance. And frankly, if it was good enough for Joyce it ought to be good enough for GRRM.

      I’ve been a GRRM fan my whole life – I started reading his science fiction short stories as they came out and loved them all – I’d read all his early SF novels too – I was gutted when he went into TV and delighted the day I found a paperback copy of A Game of Thrones on the shelves of the American Bookshop in The Hague around 1998.

      I almost met him several times at cons but we always passed like ships in the night. These last few years, as his public exposure has grown, I’ve found myself disagreeing with him more and more. His attitude to his legacy, to his place in history is the last straw; if I had the chance to meet him at a con now, I’d probably walk the other way.

        Quote  Reply

    83. So Nutter says he was following D&D’s directions in how Stannis’ end was framed. With both Stannis and Myrcella they have given themselves wriggle room if they want a different outcome. Though keeping Stannis going seems pointless.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Yeah, than Benioff didn’t understand the books, Cersei is without a doubt a villain… does he even know that she killed her childhood friend?? It’s pretty clear if you pay attention, but I’m starting to doubt they know. That thing was put in the books by GRRM exactly to take out any doubt if she is or not a villain. Of course she is…. was she abused? Sure, does she abuse other people just as much??? YES!!! Just ask Qyburn’s test subjects.

        Quote  Reply

    85. vlad:
      Yeah, than Benioff didn’t understand the books, Cersei is without a doubt a villain…

      In the books Cersei is definitely a villain, but the show is different.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Wait, I don’t remember that image of Jaime from the episode…
      So they did shoot some more of her dying/being dead in his arms. Interesting. Are we gonna see that as opening shots of season six?

        Quote  Reply

    87. Arthur,

      Nope, nobody knows what GRRM is writing, not even his editor. So, no way are D&D getting his manuscripts… I am sure he tells them whatever they need to know…. but not the written stuff. If he doesn’t consider it done, he doesn’t show it…

        Quote  Reply

    88. vlad,
      Balon01,

      Cersei is not a villain in either book or show. She is just a bitch with an incredible superiority complex who cannot grasp that there are people smarter than her out there or that the world does not revolve around her, but also frostrated by the fact that the inate sexism of her world thwarts her ambitions. Like most modern stories, GoT characters cannot be described in simple terms like “villain.”

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    89. Chad Brick:
      I find it funny that people who spend all day posting here are chiding a 66 year old man with more money that the gods could count for not not letting himself get distracted from the work they want him to do.

      GRRM can do whatever the hell he pleases at a pace of his choice, and owes us nothing.

      He owes it to the readers to not go around saying writing TWOW is his top priority when it absolutely, positively, demonstrably and unequivocally is not. He’s been jerking around readers like that for most of a decade, small wonder he gets some flak.

        Quote  Reply

    90. I have read too many critics reviews where they say if the boat doesn’t turn around it would take them out of the story. Because logic dictates that both Trystane and Jaime would want to inform Doran of Ellaria’s betrayal and seek retribution. I have to agree, the only reason the boat continues is if someone had an antidote or either Trystan does a Romeo or jumps ship.

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    91. The problem with Dorne was not the infamous fight scene. The real problem with Dorne was that they didn’t give it time and space to breathe. I was expecting Myrcella to have more lines and one or two more scenes with Jaime. If Sand Sankes were laughable (at least they were a way of distraction from the more tragic and serious parts of the plot in their cartoonish depiction) Doran was a joke. He should have had weight and authority and emit a sense of mystery as to his real plan. What we got was a weeping widow wholy dependent on Areoh Hotah with no distinct plan whatsoever. There should be a scene with Trystane and maybe another one with Ellaria. There was plenty of time for some extra minutes in several eps who were around 50mins long and 2-3 mins of more dialogue wouldn’t cost so much. As to the last scene it leaves us in a baffling cliffhanger. Are we to trust them when they say Myrcella is dead? If so why did they kill her like this? Why to recast the role? And why didn’t they make an effort to make a good use of Nel Free Tiger? My first interpretation was that Doran was aware of what’s going on with this kiss (how could he be clueless after Ellaria’s attitude and instability?) and provided Trystane with an antidote. But if he was not aware then Trystane’s fate is sealed because honestly I can’t see what can save him from a furious Cersei? And what about Ellaria and the Sand Snakes where are they going to hide? Which in this case means that within the first couple of episodes of S6 we will see some Dornish characters dying making the whole plot extremly redundant. That is why I still hope that M’s death is not true. If not they invested precious time, the time of wonderful actors/actresses, marvelous costumes and locations etc to a totally wasted idea of a plotline… Well actually the only one who can say to have earn something of all this mess is Bronn who became likeable, at least to me, after having 2 extremely boring seasons as bodyguard-attaché to Tyrion and Jaime…

        Quote  Reply

    92. Cumsprite: He owes it to the readers to not go around saying writing TWOW is his top priority when it absolutely, positively, demonstrably and unequivocally is not. He’s been jerking around readers like that for most of a decade, small wonder he gets some flak.

      Other than sleeping, prove to me that he spends more time on something else than writing TWOW. You made the claim that GRRM is a liar, now back it up. It should be easy, given your hyperbole.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Chad Brick,

      I am glad you asked. It’s been four years since the release of ADWD. After it’s release, Martin took a year off from writing. Why the hell not? He’s wealthy, successful and should enjoy the fruit of his labor. Also since then he signed a development deal with HBO, which he is still laboring on. Throw in the editing gigs, TWOIAF, working with HBO, his hobby movie theatre, buying a bowling alley, going to Australia for a month on a “promotional” tour for ADWD, and various appearances it is only now, after four years, that he has committed to writing ADWD by missing two conventions. Although, if you check his blog, you’ll see that it seems he’s going to have a hard time fitting in TWOW with all the other stuff still going on. He is a very busy man.

      I don’t begrudge him any of this. It’s his life and he should enjoy it. But for him to say writing TWOW is a priority is laughable.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Wimsey:

      Doran doesn’t give third chances. Ellaria killed Myrcella and (probably) doomed her nephew, which more than costs a chance. Yet she took an antidote for the poison, which means that she intends to live. Why do that if she is going to return for an execution?

      I would bet that Ellaria might be going towards some different allies at this point…..
      *cue Jeopardy music*

      I smell a possible Dornish civil war in S6. And it wouldn’t surprise me if Ellaria

      made a deal with Littlefinger to get what she wants. And Littlefinger will get more of his favorite thing: chaos. Either way, congrats Ellaria, you idiot, you’ve just destroyed House Martell.

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    95. Cumsprite: But for him to say writing TWOW is a priority is laughable.

      Well, strictly speaking, it is laughable that he calls it his top priority. GRRM also has been very adamant that when he is writing, he needs to basically be doing nothing but writing. He also has been adamant that he really can only write at home.

      Now, I can completely understand this. I write a lot, and all of my colleagues write a lot. (You do not get to be where we are without doing writing a lot and writing successfully a lot.) GRRM’s descriptions of what he needs to do are very familiar to me.

      I have had grad students with “writing issues.” As an advisor, your role is basically like that of a book editor. I know what the “stories” (= theses) are. I know what the “plots” (= tests and data) are. So, you make them give you parts chapters (which are equivalent to whole sections of novels in terms of information content) as they are written and you direct them. The thesis is like a control sentence of a paragraph, but for the whole paper: so, when grad students get off on tangents (usually detailing the data or providing far more background than necessary on published literature, which are analogous to extraneous characters or gratuitous world building), you give then a mental slap on the wrist with a mental ruler (i.e., return the chapter with whole sections deleted), highlight the portions that are germane, and have them rebuild.

      I suspect that GRRM sorely needs is an editor to do that for him now. His “Mereenese knot” could have been cut easily with external editing help. The extraneous characters and chapters in the last two books could easily have been removed or streamlined with external editing help. And the finished product would not only have been superior, but it also would have been out faster if someone had pulled him back from the equivalent of detailing organismal anatomies that really had little bearing on a paper examining general ecological interactions or something like that.

      dothrakian raven: And what about Ellaria and the Sand Snakes where are they going to hide?

      That is a good question. There are several likely answers at this point. Again, the discussion needs to be reframed: instead of concluding that this was dumb, we need to ask: for whom is this tactically sound? Who are plausible allies that Ellaria might have? Remember, Ellaria is a secondary character: her scenes were largely supporting scenes for a lead character or “third party PoV” scenes.

      What people really should be asking is: where are B&W going from here? Don’t assume that it was a conclusion and assume that it was a segue.

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    96. Flora Linden,

      My bet is different. Not LF, but

      Aegon.

      At any rate, I would have done something akin to this had I been planning to bring that character into the show in Season 6: and season 6 would be the first time it would be appropriate to bring in that character.

      Moreover, I would bet at this point that Ellaria intends to topple Doran, too. In her mind, he is weak and spineless. And, in her mind, I bet that she can think of a better successor than Tyrstane.

      I doubt that we will get a Dornish Civil War per se because there are not any protagonists set in Dorne now that Jaime has left. However, that might happen along the way.

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    97. Cumsprite:
      Chad Brick,

      I am glad you asked. It’s been four years since the release of ADWD. After it’s release, Martin took a year off from writing. Why the hell not? He’s wealthy, successful and should enjoy the fruit of his labor. Also since then he signed a development deal with HBO, which he is still laboring on. Throw in the editing gigs, TWOIAF, working with HBO, his hobby movie theatre, buying a bowling alley, going to Australia for a month on a “promotional” tour for ADWD, and various appearances it is only now, after four years, that he has committed to writing ADWD by missing two conventions. Although, if you check his blog, you’ll see that it seems he’s going to have a hard time fitting in TWOW with all the other stuff still going on. He is a very busy man.

      I don’t begrudge him any of this. It’s his life and he should enjoy it. But for him to say writing TWOW is a priority is laughable.

      You haven’t made your point. First, if you are going to accuse someone of lying, you start with a quote. What exactly did GRRM say, and when? The earliest example I can find on Google searching “George R. R. Martin “top priority”” is

      http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/game-of-thrones-prequel-is-possible-20130322

      Unless you can find an earlier example, whatever he was doing in 2011 or 2012 is irrelevant to your point. In order to make it, you would have to show that he spends more time on something else (not everything else) than writing TWOW. Since you have absolutely no idea how much time he spends writing, I think your point is impossible to make and thus your claim indefensible.

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    98. Chad Brick,

      1. I didn’t call him a liar in my posts. But you can tongue punch that strawman’s fart box to your heart’s desire.

      2. Don’t go to Rolling Stone for examples. Go to Martin’s blog. He has a number of “clearing the deck” posts so he can focus on TWOW on there. Have fun.

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    99. Nell Tiger Free didn’t do a bad job. But A) that’s not enough to make the Dorne storyline feel worth it (not even Alexander Siddig managed in the end); and B) I still don’t see why a recast was necessary for such a small role (yes I hate recasts, I still hate new Daario – and I liked the original version).
      Up until the very end I was hoping for something to make it all worth the time. I had a feeling Trystane might end up killing Jaime in Myrcella’s hands, for instance…
      And while I loved some of the tries at making sense of Dorne by Wimsey and others up in the comments, it’s just not enough. As good an actress as Indira Varma is, if the goal was to have Ellaria be a master plotter, she failed. If the goal was to assemble a bunch of women blinded by rage and kill a girl, I just couldn’t believe it.
      And how could Doran send his son alone to King’s Landing, as well as letting Ellaria and the 3 Sand Snakes (loved the ‘Surly, Slutty, Whippy’ mention) be present in the parting? They didn’t even know Myrcella.

      Oh well, I mustn’t forget to congratulate everyone involved for the Walk scene. It was just perfect. I sure am somewhat saddened to discover the use of a body double was more prominent than I thought (for whatever reasons – not that we’ll ever really know I guess), but Lena Headey still deserves praise. As does her body double. She was apparently the only one to truly walk entirely nude through what definitely must have felt like an angry mob. Daring.

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    100. Wimsey,

      It seems instead of the Queenmaker plot, it’ll be replaced by an attempt by Ellaria to overthrow Doran and put

      Aegon

      in power. Ellaria’s fate is sealed (neck, meet Hotah’s axe), but I’m interested in seeing where Trystane and the Snakes end up after the “Princemaker” plot fails.

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    101. Wimsey,

      This is exactly what am I asking. It was certainly not a conclusion for me. But by asking where the showrunners are going from there I am trying to consider the possibilities. And there are many options, I am very sure about it. But these options seem to look rather weak and a waste of time and of the available resources. It goes without saying that I will wait and see…

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    102. Cumsprite: He owes it to the readers to not go around saying writing TWOW is his top priority when it absolutely, positively, demonstrably and unequivocally is not.

      How on earth is that not saying he is a liar?

      Cumsprite:
      Chad Brick,

      1. I didn’t call him a liar in my posts. But you can tongue punch that strawman’s fart box to your heart’s desire.

      You didn’t use the word “liar”, but that doesn’t mean you didn’t accuse him of lying. You absolutely did. Claiming that GRRM said he is doing something and then claiming he is “absolutely, positively, demonstrably and unequivocally is not” is to accuse him of lying.

      If you think something exists on his blog before the 3/13 date from the article I cited, go find it. Google didn’t, and I am not going to go back and read every post GRRM has ever written in order to help you make your point (not that it is even possible, because you would need to know how much time GRRM spends writing TWOW, which no one on earth knows but him).

        Quote  Reply

    103. Wimsey: have had grad students with “writing issues.” As an advisor, your role is basically like that of a book editor

      That’s funny. I find that the writing is the stupid easy part, one the data is in place. I spend a month less a day collecting and analyzing (and recollecting and reanalyzing) data for my monthly technical reports, 7 hours putting the final graphs and charts together, and one hour filling the space in between with words. My dissertation was no different, except it was twenty times longer.

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    104. Chad Brick,

      You can infer I made the accusation all you want. Don’t forget the reach around, Strawman likes the reach around. Also, cup the balls.

      Martin may believe in his heart that he is giving TWOW priority, so he can say such a thing, it not be true, and he wouldn’t be lying.

      And, you can move the goalposts all you want with dates and Googles and whatnot, but the fact remains it’s been four years since ADWD came out. There’s been no mention of Mayonnaise Knot Part Deux, no scrapping of his work like what happened with AFFC, so what’s the reason?

      He’s not giving it a priority. It’s my opinion and it didn’t come out of thin air. Sorry it upsets you so.

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    105. Chad Brick,

      I first read A Game in 2000 when A Storm was published. Read all 3 (at that time) within a month or two. Quite enjoyed the first one, not as much the others. Waited over 10 years to read about Tyrion again. Found A Dance to be unfullfilling and poorly written/edited, almost rushed, odd considering it had been 10 years.

      I admit, GRRM owes his fans nothing. And it fucking shows.

        Quote  Reply

    106. I no longer care what this man’s priorities are. I’ve read these damn books too and after Storm of Swords, there is almost nothing worth keeping. Dorne is almost as stupid in the books, and Tyrion’s Great Adventure across Essos is boring as hell.

      He had a great idea that he expanded 25 different directions until it all became watered down.

      Of course he can write on his own time. I personally think we may get Winds of Winter, but Dream of Spring (and anything beyond) will be cobbled together by writers hired by his estate after George keels over.

      What I don’t care for are the passive-aggressive comments about diversions from the plot and the overall sense of petulance that HBO didn’t wait for him to bother finishing before moving on.

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    107. I bought and read the books up to AFFC in late 2010 and finished them just in time for ADWD to come out. I didn’t know at the time the history of the growing gaps between the books and if I had I might have held out for the entire lot to be in print – God alone knows when that will actually come to pass.

      I have resolved to never again buy an ongoing long series of books until they are all in print though. Grateful to GRRM for that lesson (and Patrick Rothfuss can take a hike for now too).

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    108. thremnir,

      It is dispiriting beyond belief that despite all the above, he apparently doesn’t give a shit about safeguarding his literary legacy; so much so that he tells people to fuck off if they ask if he has made contingency plans for seeing the story finished if he dies. This is nothing to do with Bitches, Mr. Gaiman; GRRM should be doing it for the same reasons Joyce did – that the fans get their fix too is nothing more than happenstance. And frankly, if it was good enough for Joyce it ought to be good enough for GRRM.

      At the time Gaiman wrote his essay, I don’t think legacy or his fans were the issue. But now, yes, I think you are totally correct.

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    109. So I was thinking… Myrcella is dead, Trystane needs a new bride, and Hizdar is dead — Tyrion points out that neither Daario nor Jorah are fit consorts for the Queen, and I think it was brought as a hint towards next season (or thereafter). I suppose the Martells can ally themselves with Dany via marriage; it would be advantageous considering it seems the Lannisters will retaliate after Myrcella’s death.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Dutch Maester,

      no, but he maybe for season 7. as someone with knee problems, I totally get it:

      What I’m doing now — it’s quite a commitment to work on the show, and my goal this year was to physically survive [the Meereen arena scene in episode nine] because when I read that sequence — that took about 12 days to shoot — when I read that sequence, and figuring out if I was ever going to survive that sequence physically … the good thing is I did survive and live through that sequence, but my knee didn’t. So I had to get a little partial knee-replacement surgery, and I’m recuperating from that now.That was quite an involved sequence. I won’t say that that scene caused me to get a partial knee replacement, but I was in pretty rough shape when I got into that scene and didn’t really take care of myself as I should have. But if they want me back for season seven, I’ll be back with bells on.

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    111. Cumsprite:

      There’s been no mention of Mayonnaise Knot Part Deux, no scrapping of his work like what happened with AFFC, so what’s the reason?

      I’d like to hear Martin’s answer to this question as well. Feast took 5 years to write, but he wasted over a year of that time on the 5 year gap and had to start from scratch. Also, by 2005 Martin had already written a good chunk of Dance as well (hence his hope that book would follow within a year after AFfC). When we take all of that into account, Martin was actually quite productive while writing Feast, churning out a similar amount of material as with the first three books.

      As we well know, he got stuck in Dance thanks to the “Meereenese Knot” and had very little progress in those years. However, Martin led us to believe that the Knot was resolved. So what happened with Winds? Why does he once more need 5+ years to finish it?

        Quote  Reply

    112. Mr Fixit: I’d like to hear Martin’s answer to this question as well. Feast took 5 years to write, but he wasted over a year of that time on the 5 year gap and had to start from scratch. Also, by 2005 Martin had already written a good chunk of Dance as well (hence his hope that book would follow within a year after AFfC). When we take all of that into account, Martin was actually quite productive while writingFeast, churning out a similar amount of material as with the first three books.

      As we well know, he got stuck in Dance thanks to the “Meereenese Knot” and had very little progress in those years. However, Martin led us to believe that the Knot was resolved. So what happened with Winds? Why does he once more need 5+ years to finish it?

      Add to that the headstart from the chapters held over from ADWD released as samples and maybe others he hasn’t released. Seems that around 15-20% of the work was already done before any new writing was required.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Arya Havin’ a Larf: Add to that the headstart from the chapters held over from ADWD released as samples and maybe others he hasn’t released. Seems that around 15-20% of the work was already done before any new writing was required.

      True. There are at least 10-ish chapters Martin moved to Winds. That’s likely close to 15% of the total page count.

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    114. Flora Linden,

      I doubt thst will be a centerpiece: Ellaria is a supporting character, after all. However, I could see that being a side issue.

      I had really hoped that GRRM would move a (potentially) important protagonist like Sansa into Aegon’s sphere so that whatever Sansa’s contribution to the Winter story is uses that plot and GRRM could discontinue the non- (or barely) protagonists Arianne & Connington. That still is possible: Theon & Sansa have to go somewhere and it obviously will not be Stannis’ camp. However, I am betting that Sansa is now going to try to find Rickon. This almost makes me worry that Sansa is going to be a non-factor in Winter just as she was in Crows/Dragons, and that the show needs to invent a story for her again.

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    115. I do consider Cersei a complete villain in that she doens’t care a whit for the suffering of anyone other than herself and her children (and even that is suspect and narcissistic, given many of her actions have put her children into direct danger).

      BUT, I do not cheer at her punishment at all. But NOT because of how it impacts her (though that does suck) – its because of how it impacts every other woman in Westeros. The Sparrows being in charge of everything moral means that women across the 7K will be treated much worse, set upon by packs of zealots for any accusation. Before the Sparrows it seems that in the 7k adultery for either sex was dealt with on a personal level. Without the protections of the Lannister/Baratheon/Tyrell name, lowborn women will be regularly stoned to death by angry mobs, not just publickly humiliated.

      I certainly hope that this backfires on those bastards and Cersei kills them all.

      I wonder what they are going to do with Jaime. I really hope he doesn’t end up killing Cersei or just dying in KL, and instead finds some reason to go North and rejoin with Brienne and Sansa. I really want him to meet up with Tyrion and Daenerys before the end… There’s a reckoning that needs to happen there.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Chad Brick:
      I find it funny that people who spend all day posting here are chiding a 66 year old man with more money that the gods could count for not not letting himself get distracted from the work they want him to do.

      GRRM can do whatever the hell he pleases at a pace of his choice, and owes us nothing.

      Oh, the famous bookwanker *Not your bitch* argument. Lulz. Guess what: We don´t owe GRRM nothing either. It´s reciprocal. He doesn´t want to write ? No problem. He starts bitching that HBO will finish before him ? Well, tough luck – start writing. He sold the rights, so fucking what ? Bookwankers bitching about HBO finishing before GRRM / ravaging the books via disliked adaptation ? Tough luck. Cancel your subscription, for all I care.

      It works both ways, cupcakes.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Wimsey,

      Sansa a non-factor in Winds?! You don’t know that! Don’t say that Wimsey!!!! We are rooting for her aren’t we?!

      If show and books move into same direction, the obvious road I would think is that

      she and LF will rally the Vale and then move to take WF from the Boltons.

      What happens with Sansa & Theon in the show is either Ramsay gets them back tracking them in the north or they get to the Wall. Unless they flee south to meet LF at Moat Cailin while he moves the Vale army to the north. That’s my best speculation for combine Sansa story (show & book). I like to speculate. I’m also intrigued that you’d think show Sansa would look for Rickon when we got show Davos right there with nothing to do.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Deesensfan,

      Because she sent him to retrieve her daughter and he didn’t. I mean it was pretty much a suicide mission he went on but Cersei doesn’t do logic! When he finds out about Lancel then he’s not going to be best pleased with her either!

      mariamb,

      I didn’t say you did but that was what the common consensus was (one of them anyway). Can’t see Doran trusting the SS though so not sure why they’d come to King’s Landing where they’d be killed on sight! Maybe a rescue mission for Trystane..not that they give a shit about him anyway after killing his fiance and their stupid plan which has left him as a captive. Hope Hotah takes Ellarias head and the other 3 get killed off pretty sharpish. They’ve been awful.
      Still not sure what the prophecy or the flashback actually did to enhance the show. Personally think it was a waste of time. They could have used the time better. Same with Brienne’s and some of Sansa’s early season stuff and some of Arya’s could have been trimmed down. I missed the deeper verbal sparring and conversatiosn this season. Can only remember a handful that were anything like the quality of previous seasons. All for action but let’s get a good balance.

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    119. flintwielder,

      Please refrain from bringing this childish book vs. show crap here please. Both have their merits and calling GRRM or D&D for things they have never said nor possibly ever thought is pretty non-sensical.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Chad Brick: How on earth is that not saying he is a liar?

      You didn’t use the word “liar”, but that doesn’t mean you didn’t accuse him of lying. You absolutely did.

      Mr. Sprite did not lie. Why are you accusing him of being a liar?!
      Not a Blog is the only real source when one is looking for info about Martin’s writing process.

      Martin did say Winds is his top priority. And then he did post lots of times blog articles that show it is not his only priority. His plate is full. He has other obligations, probably just as lucrative as writing Winds. That automatically makes writing Winds not top. Top means you make everything else second place, at least where I am from. Not sure what it means where you are from.

      Anyway, last comment specifically shows that editing High Stakes/ Wild Cards is one of them. Yes Winds it is his top writing priority as he noted on NaB:

      Anyway, I’m busy. But please note, most of these other projects involve me editing, producing, consulting, or financing. The writing I’m doing is all on WINDS OF WINTER.

      But that’s writing, not everything else.

      Cumsprite:
      Chad Brick,

      1. I didn’t call him a liar in my posts. But you can tongue punch that strawman’s fart box to your heart’s desire.

      Will you stop with the fart box tongue punching? It’s yuck. Disgusting.

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    121. Rygar:

      I’m ok with this.Give us 4 episodes of the dude from 7 and 8 instead.

      Good news, that dude – Miguel Sapochnik – will be back for S6. He’ll get two episodes at least. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    122. Flora Linden: Good news, that dude – Miguel Sapochnik – will be back for S6. He’ll get two episodes at least.

      Excellent. Those two were some of the best directed episodes of the series IMO.

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    123. TheTouchOfFrost:
      flintwielder,

      Please refrain from bringing this childish book vs. show crap here please. Both have their merits and calling GRRM or D&D for things they have never said nor possibly ever thought is pretty non-sensical.

      Please refrain from refraining others about discussing book vs. show crap.
      Your turn.

        Quote  Reply

    124. I missed the deeper verbal sparring and conversatiosn this season. Can only remember a handful that were anything like the quality of previous seasons. All for action but let’s get a good balance.

      Yeah, I noticed a marked decrease in that verbal wit this year. That is something Martin was very good at. Perhaps without him, they don’t have the writers who can do snappy dialogue? Im not saying there was none – certainly any scene with Tyrion worked great But I miss some of the bits from early in the show That being said I may be forgetting a lot and when it comes time to choose our favorite scenes later this summer, I’ll realize I misjudged.

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    125. Is book Cersei a villain?

      Well, she’s vindictive, cruel, totally narcissistic , hypocritical, and petty. And book Cersei is also really damn stupid!

      Yes, she lives in an incredibly sexist world so I understand that specific beef of hers. But mostly in the book she’s just a smug entitled narcissist with delusions of intelligence that I’ve never read her actually demonstrating that she possesses.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Shipp,

      This is all true. However, that’s not a “villain”: it’s not someone pledged to “lawful evil” or something. That’s a real person. An unpleasant person to be certain, but a real person all the same.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Tormund’s Woman: Sansa a non-factor in Winds?! You don’t know that! Don’t say that Wimsey!!!! We are rooting for her aren’t we?!

      Well, I sincerely hope that she isn’t! I do worry that she will be, though. Remember, Sansa was not originally intended to be a primary protagonist: and I think that GRRM’s ideas for her were much less clear than they were for the “main” main characters.

        Quote  Reply

    128. josh,
      At the same time Ellaria’s long kiss left no illusions as to what was to come and I am sure Doran got the message. If this is really the case and Myrcella is dead-dead then it is very possible that he also is behind her death.

      There is a long look from Doran to Ellaria just before she kisses Myrcella goodbye, almost as if he expects her or orders her to do just that, maybe including the poisoning. I don’t like that idea, because i would mean that Doran may not be as wise and forgiving as he seemed, and more like other rulers of Westeros we know.
      Still it makes sense, but only if Trystane also knows, or he is at least under Doran’s full control and the ship has orders to take them elsewhere, and that would be to Mereen, to marry Denaerys. This would accomplish multiple things at once: He can take revenge on the Lannisters by killing Myrcella. At the same time he takes Jaime hostage and delays the message until his plan is in full effect. He frees Trystane up for a marriage to seal a much more promising alliance, that I am sure Varys had some part in arranging.
      It also explains why he is so angry at Ellaria and the Snakes, because they almost ruined his plan by executing it too early an without knowing all the details.

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    129. flintwielder,

      Nah. It’s ok. Your natural unpleasantness is sure to alienate you before too long and you’ll have to take your childish attention-seeking elsewhere.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Wimsey,

      I really don’t know. I don’t see a purpose for them at all , to be honest. They could go after Tommen but that would be a suicide mission. The books are no help as they assume that they’re part of Doran’s masterplan. Not sure if it’s that I don’t see a place for them in the show or I don’t want to see a place for them in the show.

      Cumsprite,

      Like them like you like watching the clowns at the circus or…?

        Quote  Reply

    131. TheTouchOfFrost,

      Well, Jaime needed foils, and they provided that. Dorne probably will be relevant to next year’s plot (or one of the plots), and taking a year between that and Oberyn would have been a bad idea. So,2 birds, 1 stone and all of that.

      My bet is that they introduce Young Griff next year now that he will be relevant to the larger plot, and Ellaria will flee to him.

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    132. I’m not nearly as forgiving as others apparently are regarding two players in this. Martin and TV Cersei. Stating it plainly as possible Martin seems a fat lazy ass slob to me. Lets hope he lives long enough to finish his work. Seems to me that he’s allowed the distractions when it seems to me that he should have a burning desire to finish his work of art. Or perhaps money has made it less and less a work of art to him. Fleecing and milking it for all its worth just might be a higher priority to him. Helps to slack off when people shovel money at you regardless. Seen it in other aspects of human endeavor where potential is never fully realized when easy quick money enters the equation.

      The other oddity to me ( as an unsullied I guess) is the short attention spans of the fans that seem to forget the TV Cersei that put a bounty on dwarves heads in her search for Tyrion. And thats a literal bounty on the dwarves heads. None of this bring the dwarf in alive, or hold them for identification or questioning. Bring her the head of random dwarf, and “oops, wrong dwarf head, throw it in the trash and continue”. Thats the TV Cersei some people strangly feel sorry for now. Odd.

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    133. And Doran had nothing to do with the death or Myrcella. He and his brother Oberyn have made it clear in no uncertain terms that thats not their particular thing.

      Ellaria has always puzzled me. She was there when Oberyn died in fair combat. Why in the holy name of hell is it she’s looking for revenge against every fricken body. Its made absolutely no sense to me. Its purely emotional, nothing reasonable or rational at all. And to take it out on an absolute and total innocent is absolutely and totally nuts. She can go far as I’m concerned. Her, and those cartoonish sandsnakes and their entire silly stupid nonsensical storyline.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Flora Linden,

      Your right, Ellaria must have setup some kinda of plan because she can’t stay in Dorne. It seems unlikely that Aegon and co. will be cast, so what about the Greyjoys. It can’t be a secret that they were in the 5 kings war and have ambitions of their own – and they are set to attack the Reach next season. The Martells hate their Tyrells neighbors. It would be like the SS to aid them against the Tyrells and Lannisters-Baratheons and the strong personalities on both sides would hopefully make for interesting TV.

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    135. More and more I think about it, knowing what we saw in Dorne (this one season – if they were setting up Dorne for Season 6, well…) we could have done with one Sand Snake: Tyene. She’s Ellaria’s daughter, uses the poisons, etc.

      It would give them a scene or two more to develop and hopefully explain their absolutely crazy idea of kidnapping Myrcella. And they’d still be able to do the kidnapping (in a smarter way not including open combat). The fight that could take place would be Jaime and Bronn arriving and meeting the Water Gardens’ guards (they try to sneak in, it doesn’t work, they get noticed -> fight).

      And voila, we get rid of Obara’s weird monologues and shouts she’s Obara, we get rid of the improbable fight of the two kidnapping parties (while guards are nowhere to be seen) and we hopefully understand Ellaria and Tyene more. Because really, I don’t get Ellaria and the Sand Snakes at all.
      Fine, Ellaria could be emotionally raving for vengeance, even if it’s through innocent Myrcella. But by the end of the season, she should have found some sense, moreso when she not only endangers the peace between Dorne and Lannisters but even individual Martells, basically her almost nephew. And how come the Sand Snakes are fine with killing an innocent girl. All the reasons we get are: love for killing whoever whatever (Obara’s first monologue) and the vague notion that up there in King’s Landing where Lannisters live, Oberyn was killed. That’s really lacking…

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    136. JamesL,

      Her use of a body double had nothing to do with her pregnancy

      Right, in other circumstances, she wouldn’t have used a body double while pregnant and nobody would have questioned why a character in a show became several months pregnant during a few days in jail.

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    137. Cumsprite,

      You can’t have had it with a lumpy bumpy pie then! With the right accompaniment vanilla is a taste explosion…plus I like the smell.

      Wimsey,

      You won’t let go of Young Griff will you?! 😛 I think that ship has sailed. The big casting anouncements have been made for next year kind of and I think they’d struggle to effectively introduce him now let alone connect him up to current stroylines and make him relvenat / important to the viewers. Unless we get Trystane as his proxy then I think that plot line is going to be left out. Dorne could play a aprt but at this point it’s too much of a mess to even speculate what is going to go on with them.

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    138. TheTouchOfFrost:
      Cumsprite,

      You can’t have had it with a lumpy bumpy pie then! With the right accompaniment vanilla is a taste explosion…plus I like the smell.

      That’s the thing about vanilla, isn’t it? You have to add something to it to make it special. Flavors like mint chocolate chip, fudge ripple and butter pecan can stand on their own. Unlike vanilla. I do admit I was too hard on vanilla; it is a fine flavor but just about everything else is better.

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    139. mariamb: I don’t know, Wims…I don’t think that we are getting Young Griff. What would be an effective way to introduce him at this point?

      The only effective way to ever introduce YG would be leading an invasion at the very outset of a season. (Introducing him the way that the book did would not have worked on TV. It actually was pretty clumsy in the books, too: Tyrion’s story would have been a lot smoother had he not met YG and gotten captured and then sold into slavery.) In this case, having him meet up with Ellaria et al at the outset could work. After all, Ellaria must think that she has some allies to so brazenly defy both Doran and the Lannisters.

      TheTouchOfFrost: I think that ship has sailed. The big casting anouncements have been made for next year kind of and I think they’d struggle to effectively introduce him now let alone connect him up to current stroylines and make him relvenat / important to the viewers.

      Again, the opposite is the case for most of this. Season 5 was too soon to introduce him, as YG was not relevant to the story or the plots in Season. As for casting announcements, those always come out in chunks and usually centered around one new plotline. Obviously, the audience does not have to consider YG any more important than Tarley or Euron, both of whom will be introduced next year if we have interpreted the initial casting call correctly. All of these will be secondary or tertiary characters, after all: they aren’t important, only what they do.

      At any rate, if the ship hasn’t sailed on introducing Euron or Tarley, then why has it sailed on YG?

      I am not sure how Trystane could be used as a proxy for YG. YG’s importance to the story is almost certainly going to be all about Daeny being caught between honoring primogeniture or her own accomplishments. Trystane cannot introduce that conflict.

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    140. Wimsey,

      Meh, Wims…I’m not convinced. Forgetting about casting announcements for the moment, I think that Young Griff has been cut.

      In the books, Varys and Illyrio have secretly supported Young Griff for years. It is highly unlikely that YG could mount a successful invasion without the financial and political backing that Varys and Illyrio provide. In the show, Varys (and IIyrio in absentia) has declared for Dany. Unless we soon see Varys tell Tyrion, “Oh, by the way, I have another horse in the race,” I, too, think that the YG ship has sailed.

      Back to casting announcements…see the latest post…do any sound like YG to you?

      And, FWIW, I am not suggesting that Trystane = YG. Trystane’s role is probably closer to Quentyn.

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