Kit Harington reveals Jon Snow’s post-resurrection state of mind

20160421_ep602_Publicity_still_28_00160866[1]

Once again, Entertainment Weekly speaks with Kit Harington about Jon Snow’s comeback on Game of Thrones, and this latest update bring some major revelations about Jon’s state of mind.

We’re going to tuck all this info below a cut, for spoiler reasons, so consider yourself sufficiently warned!

Harington explains his character’s mindset after the resurrection, and just what Jon experienced after death- or what he didn’t experience, more to the point.

At first, I was worried that he’ll wake up and he’s the same, back to normal — then there’s no point in that death. […] He needs to change. There’s a brilliant line when Melisandre asks: ‘What did you see?’ And he says: ‘Nothing, there was nothing at all.’ That cuts right to our deepest fear, that there’s nothing after death. And that’s the most important line in the whole season for me. Jon’s never been afraid of death, and that’s made him a strong and honorable person. He realizes something about his life now: He has to live it, because that’s all there is. He’s been over the line and there’s nothing there. And that changes him. It literally puts the fear of god into him.

Kit appears in a video discussing the death and return as well:

Harington’s response provides answers and puts an end to some of the debates we’ve been having regarding whether or not Jon was truly gone after his murder. It sounds as though we can write off the warging-Ghost theory altogether- in the TV series, at least!

You can purchase the Kit Harington cover issue of Entertainment Weekly online or on newsstands Friday!


More Stark news: Maisie Williams appeared on a Radio 1 interview this week, discussing the new season, and slipped up a bit. Asked if we’d be hearing from Rickon, the youngest Stark child, this season, she replied, “Yes, we will indeed…Oh no, I’m literally going to get off the air and someone’s going to email me!”

It’s been common knowledge about the spoiler-savvy fanbase that Rickon was returning in season 6, but it’s always good to have official confirmation from the cast. Here’s hoping Maisie didn’t get too many emails about it.

310 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. It will be nice to see how they bring back Rickon. Manderley’s arc was one of the highlights of ADWD

        Quote  Reply

    2. If the whole episode is about Jon and the others sitting by a fire and talking about what the f. has just happened, I’ll love it.

        Quote  Reply

    3. In the full EW interview Kit says

      that there is one episode in season 6 focused on Jon’s story and that it is the most epic episode they’ve done. We know that there is a ToJ scene in episode 3 and that the events of ToJ closely relate to Jon. Could episode 3 be the “most epic” episode so far? Are we getting it on Sunday? How awesome would that be?

        Quote  Reply

    4. I thought that we knew that Art Parkinson had done filming! Or did we just know that he was in Belfast? Or did my latest methadone treatment do less than I hoped?

        Quote  Reply

    5. Resurrection “literally puts the fear of God” in Jon? Damn, it seems my worst fears are confirmed and Jon will return as a R’hllor fanatic 🙁
      If he continues along the line of Stannis and the Queensmen in terms of religion, I’m off Team Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    6. “Jon’s never been afraid of death, and that’s made him a strong and honorable person. He realizes something about his life now: He has to live it, because that’s all there is. He’s been over the line and there’s nothing there. And that changes him. It literally puts the fear of god into him.” Well i think this confirms that he will in some way reject LC title or be talked into leaving the Nights Watch. He wants to live….he wants a real life. Welcome back Jon Stark 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    7. Wimsey:
      I thought that we knew that Art Parkinson had done filming!Or did we just know that he was in Belfast?Or did my latest methadone treatment do less than I hoped?

      I think it was known to fans who looked for the info, like we do. I also saw a casting list the other day that pegged him down for this season, if not the next, subsequent episodes. Could have just been Maisie increasing the hype.

      However, Rickon’s storyline has me a little concerned, particularly for Shaggy Dog. Love that wolf. 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    8. Jambo:
      Anyone know if it’s the same actor for Rickon? Or did they recast him?

      According to unofficial reports, Art Parkinson was spotted in Belfast, so I think Rickon wasn’t recast. Also, unlike first Tommen and Myrcella, Art Parkinson was not an extra but a full actor.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Blergh, sounds like the only change is that it makes Jon even more “honorable”. Boring. I was hoping for a darker Jon, not evil or cruel just a bit more ruthless, but apperently it just makes him even more of a good guy. Jon and Tyrion are the only main characters who are 100% pure, I was hoping this season would add some grey to em.

        Quote  Reply

    10. At first, I was worried that he’ll wake up and he’s the same, back to normal — then there’s no point in that death … He needs to change.

      I was sceptical about the whole thing but coming from Kit this is reassuring. Provided it is a real change and not just superficial.

        Quote  Reply

    11. I didn’t think there would be a death pays for life cost…or that he would be *changed* as in missing some of his soul.

      Sounds like he’s still Jon but will now try to live his life to its fullest and not always follow the *rules* like never being with a woman and such.

      Ironically he’ll be putting his life on the line when he goes kicking some ass…but it’ll be on his terms!

        Quote  Reply

    12. Bearded Onion:
      Blergh, sounds like the only change is that it makes Jon even more “honorable”. Boring.I was hoping for a darker Jon, not evil or cruel just a bit more ruthless, but apperently it just makes him even more of a good guy. Jon and Tyrion are the only main characters who are 100% pure, I was hoping this season would add some grey to em.

      Tyrion killed his own father and strangled Shae to death. That automatically puts a shade of grey on him.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Season 6 has been off to an excellent start so far, but all the deaths seem a bit sudden to me, like D&D are accelerating the story to get it into the endzone.

      I mean, we lost Doran, Trystane and Areo Hotah in episode 1, and then Roose Bolton, Fat Walda and the baby in episode 2…the cast is shrinking.

        Quote  Reply

    14. aabe,

      That’s what I am afraid of, too! They’d totally ruin Jon’s character if they made him a R’hllor worshipper. Jon belongs in the North with the old gods

        Quote  Reply

    15. Bearded Onion:
      Also this likely means Olly and Thorne are spared, lol.

      I would actually like that. Killing them would be too similar to Janos Slynt and the NW needs as much men as they can get. Also, those two characters are not full villains.

        Quote  Reply

    16. Bearded Onion:
      Blergh, sounds like the only change is that it makes Jon even more “honorable”. Boring.I was hoping for a darker Jon, not evil or cruel just a bit more ruthless, but apperently it just makes him even more of a good guy.

      It’s funny. I didn’t take that from the interview at all. If anything, quite the opposite.

      Lord Parramandas: I would actually like that. Killing them would be too similar to Janos Slynt and the NW needs as much men as they can get. Also, those two characters are not full villains.

      Actually you could use the Slynt parallel to showcase the change in Jon’s character. Whether that means pardoning them or having someone else do the execution, it depends on where they’re going with the character. But the parallel with Slynt wouldn’t make it boring; it would be a great way to create some contrast.

        Quote  Reply

    17. EDIT: HOLY FUCK I’M DUMB, HE SAYS HES NOT’ MORE HONORABLE HE SAYS HE’S NOW SCARE OF DYING. I’M SO SORRY FOR BEING A DUMBASS

        Quote  Reply

    18. Bearded Onion,

      Interesting, I’d interpreted his words to mean pretty much the opposite (that we will be seeing a darker Jon, less concerned with honor and more with “living”…whatever that means). At least we only need to wait a few more days to find out some answers!

        Quote  Reply

    19. Bearded Onion:
      Blergh, sounds like the only change is that it makes Jon even more “honorable”. Boring.I was hoping for a darker Jon, not evil or cruel just a bit more ruthless, but apperently it just makes him even more of a good guy. Jon and Tyrion are the only main characters who are 100% pure, I was hoping this season would add some grey to em.

      well… Tyrion did kill his father…

        Quote  Reply

    20. Wimsey,

      We knew he was in Belfast, hanging out with the cast, which we posted about. He doesn’t live there, so him being there makes us tend to assume he’s filming. But the only reports of him actually filming came from

      the Snowbowl battle reports that didn’t actually specify it was Art Parkinson- we just assumed it was still Art.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Luka Nieto: It’s funny. I didn’t take that from the interview at all. If anything, quite the opposite.

      I’m fucking STUPID, I thought he said he’s certainly more honorable, he said he’s certainly scared of dying now. WHOOPS.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Lord Parramandas: Tyrion killed his own father and strangled Shae to death. That automatically puts a shade of grey on him.

      Wasn’t it self defense? It was him or her at that point.

        Quote  Reply

    23. NewJeffCT,

      And Balon Greyjoy. We lost three rulers in the first two episodes: a Prince, a Lord and a King; Doran, Roose and Balon. All at the hands of people who care more about revolutionary change than about the consequences of their actions; Ellaria, Ramsay and Euron. I don’t think it’s rushed at all. Except for Balon’s death, they were all set up in the previous season to some extent, and it’s a great way to kickstart a season of mad takeovers and their likely downfall.

        Quote  Reply

    24. I kind of want to hear Jon say ‘I lived and died at my post’ on Sunday, harking back to his oath. And not quietly. I’m kind of hoping it’s an angry response to someone telling him he has to stay with the NW. I want him to be the Oathbreaker.

      I imagine the fight against the WW will be utmost on his mind. But I imagine him being bitter about his betrayal. But we will see soon.

        Quote  Reply

    25. rhymeswithweak: Wasn’t it self defense? It was him or her at that point.

      He mentions to Tywin that he murdered her with his own hands. So it wasn’t self defense. I’m sure Shae picked the knife to defend herself because she knew Tyrion would attack her.

        Quote  Reply

    26. double_trouble:
      aabe,

      That’s what I am afraid of, too! They’d totally ruin Jon’s character if they made him a R’hllor worshipper. Jon belongs in the North with the old gods

      If he’s already died and knows that there’s nothing there, why would he become a religious fanatic? It makes no sense.

      It seems to me that he’s saying that before, he lived to be honorable by other people’s standards, and didn’t care if that meant his death. Now, he no longer wants to die…he realizes that this is the only life he has and that this rigid code of ‘honor’ has kept him from truly living.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Jon not wanting to be brought back again is an important point, otherwise dramatic tension is lost. Interesting to see what his rationale will be (why wouldn’t you want a death escape clause?!)

        Quote  Reply

    28. “He doesn’t want to die ever again. But if he does, he doesn’t want to be brought back.”

      The implications of this sentence, my oh my. What if the Others offer him immortality?!

        Quote  Reply

    29. with Ramsay under the assumption that Sansa is heading to the wall, I wonder if we will get some version of the pink letter the season?

        Quote  Reply

    30. aabe:
      Resurrection “literally puts the fear of God” in Jon? Damn, it seems my worst fears are confirmed and Jon will return as a R’hllor fanatic
      If he continues along the line of Stannis and the Queensmen in terms of religion, I’m off Team Jon.

      Well, one has to be fair and admit that from what we have seen so far, R’hllor sounds like a pretty serious god. I mean, the other ones don’t ever do anything!
      So I guess with all the stuff R’hllor has done, I would tend to be a believer as well. Without the burning people part. But I am not even sure this is R’hllor or his fanatic priests.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Jambo:
      Anyone know if it’s the same actor for Rickon? Or did they recast him?

      I think he was recast. Ramsay calls him “little man” and Art is now taller than Iwan so that makes no sense.

        Quote  Reply

    32. Jack Bauer 24: I think he was recast. Ramsay calls him “little man” and Art is now taller than Iwan so that makes no sense.

      They can use camera tricks to make Ramsay look taller.

        Quote  Reply

    33. MVC,

      I didn’t realize that… LOL
      The resurrection happened on orthodox Easter Sunday and now ToJ and the “reveal” on Mother’s Day? Awesome

        Quote  Reply

    34. OMG, I knew it!! Can’t wait for the new Jon (The character will be more interesting, with edges, I HOPE… 😉 )

        Quote  Reply

    35. Demon Monkey:
      I kind of want to hear Jon say ‘I lived and died at my post’ on Sunday, harking back to his oath. And not quietly. I’m kind of hoping it’s an angry response to someone telling him he has to stay with the NW. I want him to be the Oathbreaker.

      I imagine the fight against the WW will be utmost on his mind. But I imagine him being bitter about his betrayal. But we will see soon.

      What if Jon doesn’t remember Hardhome?

        Quote  Reply

    36. Lord Parramandas,

      He likes to be dramatic. I think in the books he told Jamie that he did kill Joffrey.

      Shae already massively betrayed him and he cant exactly say sure, run along. He also likely wanted to appear bad ass in front of his dad.

      It’s reasonable to think that seeing Shae in his father’s chambers really drove him over the edge. It’s conceivable that he could have had second thoughts and not killed his Dad.

        Quote  Reply

    37. If what he mentions is true, they are really beating the “nothing” horse to death, aren’t they? I can understand the boost in honorable actions, intents and purposes after the resurrection, but no greater insight? Simply nothing? Empty? A bit flustering, imho. I’m very interested in how this plays out.

      I’m assuming that Mel will further devolve into despondence after that admission.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Sou:
      Bearded Onion,

      Don’t worry mate, we got that you had a slight misunderstanding there, no problem.

      Yeah I bloody love this show and i really hate to rip on it, so I felt pretty bad when I found out it was just me being a dipshit. Sounds like they are handling Jon’s death the best way they can, make him a bit more ruthless but still have elements of that Jon we love still.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Jon came back to drink some beer and kick some ass…and it looks like he’s almost out of beer.

        Quote  Reply

    40. aabe,

      Why?!? All it would do is make Jon a harder person, who is there that is innocent that he would potentially burn? The road to Winterfell is lined with no one but traitors, burn em I say.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Tycho Nestoris: It’s interesting that Podeswa was so coy when asked.

      He might be referring to something else altogether. After all, if you are a show-only person, then you would know that Jon and Ghost have more than “man’s best friend” relationship only if you’ve seen the commentaries.

      Hmmm: that reads wrong, but I cannot put my finger on why….

        Quote  Reply

    42. Great comments from Kit Harington! It sounds like his storyline is going to be dynamite this season. I’m looking forward to it immeasurably.

      I could be wrong, but my guess would be that Jon will still have a good heart and be possessed with altruistic intentions. However, once he gets over his initial uncertainty, I think he’ll be more ruthlessly practical and less concerned with allowing the niceties of honor to stand in the way of what needs to be done. No more half-measures, in other words – I think he’ll be more willing to subscribe to the idea that the ends sometimes justify the means (especially when it comes to putting down a mad dog like Ramsay). That might lead him into a bit of an ideological conflict with some people like Davos, but they’ll work through that. Ultimately, Jon will be far more proactive in pursuing their shared goal.

      It’s very interesting that the first full episode that we’ll see featuring a resurrected Jon Snow is called “Oathbreaker”. Many of us had theorized that the primary recipient of that title would be Brienne, but as of this moment we don’t have any confirmation that she’ll actually be in the episode (she and Sansa may still appear – that appearance just hasn’t been confirmed from the preview, the synopsis, or the promotional photos).

      I now think it’s more likely that the titular ‘Oathbreaker’ will be Jon – as in, it’s the name he will be branded with by his enemies, both within the Watch and without.

      In the preview, we see the Umbers traveling to Winterfell to pay homage to Ramsay … and presumably for the Smalljon to give the new Lord Bolton the ‘gift’ of Rickon Stark. My preliminary guess for the title is that in declaring his new allegiance, the Smalljon will denounce Jon Snow as an ‘oathbreaker’ for having allowed the wildlings to pass through the Wall. Previously, whether his motives were altruistic or self-serving, he had been legitimately harboring Rickon from the Boltons. But when faced with the threat of an ancient enemy, he decides that supporting the Boltons is the lesser of two evils, and trumps whatever residual loyalty he might hold for the Starks. As his casting call describes, his “hatred runs deep.”

      That would be pretty heartbreaking, I think. Jon decided to allow the willdings through the Wall in order to serve the greater good. But in doing so, he inadvertently started a chain of events that leads to his brother being handed over to Ramsay, potentially to his eventual death. As ever, noble actions and intentions have unexpected consequences in this world. It would also give Jon yet another reason to go to Winterfell and take out Ramsay personally.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Icekhione: There is no afterlife, so there are no Gods

      Why does that preclude gods? They might have better things to do with their existences than endow bald monkeys with souls.

        Quote  Reply

    44. sj4iy: If he’s already died and knows that there’s nothing there, why would he become a religious fanatic?It makes no sense.

      I was thinking the same thing. To me his initial quotes sounded like he was talking about atheism, and saying that nothing existed after death, thus he needs to live life to the fullest now because when he does die for good there’s nothing waiting for him in the afterlife. Which conflicts with his final statement of “it literally put the fear of god in him” So I don’t know.

      Perhaps, since the whole Lord of Lights big thing is Light vs Darkness, he thinks following the Lord of Light is the only way not to just fade into complete darkness when you die, which would explain him having a fear of God now. Him and Beric Dondarrion aren’t really clear when they say they went to the darkness. Are tehy consciously floating around in a dark void, or are they just saying that they had no conscious thoughts while they were dead? The former would make sense of his fear of god statement. The latter explanation wouldn’t, although it wouldn’t necessarily prove that there is no afterlife; it would just mean that no living being could remember what they experienced if they died and came back to life.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Bearded Onion: Jon and Tyrion are the only main characters who are 100% pure, I was hoping this season would add some grey to em.

      Er, did you do water standard tests in Flint Michigan?

        Quote  Reply

    46. It just sounds like some dramatic motivation to get Jon away from the Wall and thinking about the wider issues.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Jared:
      It’s very interesting that the first full episode that we’ll see featuring a resurrected Jon Snow is called “Oathbreaker”. Many of us had theorized that the primary recipient of that title would be Brienne, but as of this moment we don’t have any confirmation that she’ll actually be in the episode. I now think it’s more likely that the titular ‘Oathbreaker’ will be Jon – as in, it’s the name he will be branded with by his enemies, both within the Watch and without.

      well, in the full interview Kit says

      that there is one episode in season 6 focused on Jon’s story. Since ToJ is a part of his story, I strongly suspect that episode 3 is the one he’s been hinting at.

        Quote  Reply

    48. I really hope Rickon isn’t the gift that was brought to Ramsey but I’m really starting to believe he is.

        Quote  Reply

    49. lol now that she proved herself, I see Jon pestering Melisandre about her powers, wanting her to make him immortal. omg what if he discovers her secret of longevity? haha

        Quote  Reply

    50. kat_sk,

      I fully believe that Episode 3 will have a heavy focus on Jon – his present, his past, and his potential future. But my guess would be that the episode that they’re referring to in that interview as the most ‘epic episode’ they’ve ever done will be Episode 9.

      Dee,

      Once or twice, I believe. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    51. Man, I hope this thing doesn’t devolve into some big religious argument/controversy (not on here per se but overall). I’ve always found that fiction that actually tries to answer the question of what happens after we die can go off the tracks a bit and get bogged down in exactly what they want to show or describe. (With the possible exception of Anne Rice’s Memnoch the Devil and that was so strange but yet kind of cool that I never knew exactly what to make of it).

      I can see this pissing off religious people (of many different stripes) and non religious people both.

      I kind of would rather they had gone with the warging thing and thus side stepped the whole question. Of course if on the screen they leave it as something like “I saw nothing” that is vague enough to avoid much controversy. People could come up with their own interpretations and reasoning behind that.

        Quote  Reply

    52. I just finished reading the entire lengthy article and it made me feel a lot better about Jon’s importance and presence in S6. It seems like this season is all about Jon and his fight against the WW and Ramsay. As an avowed Jon Snow fangirl this makes my heart happy.

      I remember Jon’s line to Qhorin Halfhand that he’d “gladly give my life” for the realm. So, I love that Kit says there being “nothing” on the other side makes Jon 2.0 really appreciate life. That’s some deep stuff for Jon and I can’t wait to see that conversation with Mel. I’m a little worried, though, that he doesn’t want to be brought back again if he were to die again. I guess that would make him fight even harder.

      And we got this little tidbit about Snowbowl:

      “In a muddy field, Jon Snow is fighting a dozen men. His costume has changed (“Purely for merchandising—now everybody has to buy a different doll,” he jokes), and his wild hair is partly pinned up, out of the way, almost like a samurai.” And: “Yet even the toughest heroes can’t handle dozens of enemies by themselves. During one scene, Jon Snow is overwhelmed, and he goes down swinging. Fighters pile atop him.” Well, damn, Jon’s gonna take on 12 men at once during Snowbowl. I can’t possibly get more hyped!

        Quote  Reply

    53. I hope he doesn’t experience any memory loss
      I hope he doesn’t forget Hardhome, Ghost, Yigrette, and all his family 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    54. Gravemaster,

      Nice to see Kevan back. It looks like Jaime and Cersei are going to meet with him. I wonder if we’ll get some version of Kevan’s “Tommen has his mother … and his father too, I think”. Only it would be even more badass, because he’d be saying it to Jaime’s face …

      It also looks like Jaime and Cersei pay a visit to Qyburn as he’s instructing his little birds (I’ll assume for the moment that they are his little birds, and not his lab subjects. That may be presumptuous). That’s probably the scene from the preview in which Cersei says “If someone’s planning on making our losses their gains, I want to hear it.”

      Jack Bauer 24,

      Yeah, it’s looking increasingly less likely that Varys will return to King’s Landing to murder Kevan and Pycelle … and I’m glad, because the way that his character and plans have unfolded in the show, it would make little sense for him to do so before Dany arrives. With fAegon mercifully cut, he’s a far more altruistic (and, in my opinion, interesting) character. I do think that he’ll return to Westeros, but it will be to treat with Dorne and prepare for Dany’s arrival. Kevan and Pycelle will fall in the same manner they die in the novels, but it will be a different culprit. Possibly Cersei, as you suggest.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Icekhione,

      IIRC, Martin said that Gods in Westeros are just like Gods in real life. People who believe, will believe. People who don’t, won’t. There will be no definitive answer whether they exist or not.

        Quote  Reply

    56. This makes me so happy. You all know me – that doesn’t happen often. ?Can’t wait to hear that line. ?

        Quote  Reply

    57. Dee:
      I hope he doesn’t experience any memory loss
      I hope he doesn’t forget Hardhome, Ghost, Yigrette, and all his family

      Aww, I don’t think he will, Dee. If anything, his links to the world and the people in it (yes i consider Ghostie a ‘people’) will be stronger for it.

        Quote  Reply

    58. aabe,

      I think that may be an extreme. I think he comes back realizing how valuable life is and he can’t waste it sitting at the frozen wall. He now has a drive to save and avenge all the people he can in order to save Westeros. He understands life is precious since he is lucky enough to have a second chance at this thing called life. Death may scare him even more, but it also drives him!

        Quote  Reply

    59. ghost of winterfell,

      It is too late for that. We know that the Walkers are real. We know that the Old Gods or Tree Gods are real. We know that R’hllor is real. The question is: are they really gods? Or do they just have “godlike” powers?

      Now, the 7, the Drowned God, the Many-Faced God, etc., probably are like gods in our world. I doubt that we’ll ever get anything demonstrating their reality or falsity.

        Quote  Reply

    60. I really wonder what that means for the mutineers. If he values life above everything, does that mean he will spare them? I really like ser Alliser’s character so if he is meant to die, I hope they give him clean death. It really bothers me that several people now see them as one-dimensional villains and hope for gruesome death, especially for Olly.

        Quote  Reply

    61. kat_sk,
      Jared,

      It makes sense that episode 3 is primarily about Jon. Its the first episode after his “awakening” and it includes ToJ. I can’t wait to see the look on Ser Alliser’s face when he sees Jon again.

      Jack Bauer 24,

      That would be an interesting change.

      Qyburn killing Pycelle and Kevan on Cersei’s orders. I might actually cheer.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Tyrion (show, because this is a site about the show) is not a bad guy. He honestly cared deeply for Shae…then she betrayed him with his FATHER who he had deep father issues with. Shae does go for the knife, which might have just been defensive on her part, but would put him in the “e tu Brute” frame of mind. It hurt him to kill her, you could see it. From that, hearing Tywin in the next room was just a step to seal that revenge for Tyrion. I could see others in the same position reacting the same way. I hope MOST of us don’t have a spare crossbow hanging around.

      For Jon warging Ghost. It is possible that the books will prove that out, but never at anytime did the show hint to it. A thread I read earlier on this site had everyone all “I knew it all along” and now it isn’t so again.

      I am hopeful about Kit’s assessment of the future for Jon Snow. As to will he or won’t he make Thorne or Olly pay? Well I rarely use the “F” word, but FUCK OLLY. I mean it. He has to go, period. He was the last and worst to betray our hero. Gotta go. Twitter and Ozzy Man feel the same, whenever Olly is on the screen the first reaction is “fuck Olly”. I’d say a Red Queen treatment is in order. How could you ever trust them again?

        Quote  Reply

    63. Bearded Onion,

      I think it is a little premature to assume all of that from a simple interview. I take it that he is more driven. realizes he can do more than just be Night’s Watch. He wants to avenge his family, unite the north and stop the walkers. He is scared of death and therefore do all he can save as many people from death as he can.

        Quote  Reply

    64. remy,

      That’s sort of like noting that the cart came only after the horse did! Real dogs will often start barking moments before a person they know opens the door. Jon rebooting would be filling the room with fresh Master scent: and any canid would notice that.

        Quote  Reply

    65. NewJeffCT,

      Shrinking cast means more time spent with characters we love. Also, DD are getting rid of all the remaining characters from that generation. Now, it is an entire new generation in the north, from the start of the show, battling it out for control. Gonna be awesome!

        Quote  Reply

    66. Lord Parramandas: It really bothers me that several people now see them as one-dimensional villains and hope for gruesome death, especially for Olly.

      Yeah, particularly for Olly. He watched his family and everyone he knew get butchered by Wildlings. And he’s supposed to forget that just because some bogieman is back?

        Quote  Reply

    67. Wimsey:
      ghost of winterfell,

      It is too late for that.We know that the Walkers are real.We know that the Old Gods or Tree Gods are real.We know that R’hllor is real.The question is: are they really gods?Or do they just have “godlike” powers?

      Now, the 7, the Drowned God, the Many-Faced God, etc., probably are like gods in our world.I doubt that we’ll ever get anything demonstrating their reality or falsity.

      Remind me, what have the Old Gods -Tree Gods done to prove their existence? I am not arguing with you, it is just that I don’t remember.

        Quote  Reply

    68. double_trouble,

      Why worship a god who doesn’t provide some afterlife? Why follow any god if you know there is no afterlife. I guess you can because he brought you back from the dead. See it sounds like Beric got wreckless when he knew he could come back. Sounds like Jon is going to become smarter so him coming back was only a one time thing.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Sou: I am not arguing with you, it is just that I don’t remember.

      We know what they are now: people like BR and Bran plugged into weirwood trees.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Demon Monkey,

      Yeah, I think the first thing about him waking up has nothing to do with Ramsay and Winterfell. All Nights Watch and White Walkers. It won’t be until Sansa gets there or a particular letter where his attention may turn towards the North and Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Wanderer:
      “Jon’s never been afraid of death, and that’s made him a strong and honorable person. He realizes something about his life now: He has to live it, because that’s all there is. He’s been over the line and there’s nothing there. And that changes him. It literally puts the fear of god into him.” Well i think this confirms that he will in some way reject LC title or be talked into leaving the Nights Watch. He wants to live….he wants a real life. Welcome back Jon Stark

      Jon’s watch ended when he died, he’s a free agent now.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Bearded Onion:
      Blergh, sounds like the only change is that it makes Jon even more “honorable”. Boring.I was hoping for a darker Jon, not evil or cruel just a bit more ruthless, but apperently it just makes him even more of a good guy. Jon and Tyrion are the only main characters who are 100% pure, I was hoping this season would add some grey to em.

      yeah it kind of sounds like that. Would really like to see a more ruthless Jon as well.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Jon said the same thing Beric did, that there is nothing after death. Im not surprised by that but I am looking forward to the new and improved Jon!

        Quote  Reply

    74. Just thought: if Howland Reed = High Priest could oath breaker be him finally coming clean with TOJ and spending that word contrary to the oath he took to keep it secret

        Quote  Reply

    75. sj4iy,

      Well if he is scared of complete darkness of dying again then he may want to say thank you to Rhollor if indedd this god saved Jon, just in case he can be brought back again. So I can see him believing in Rhollor. I don’t know if I see him burning people at the stake anytime soon though nor screaming that the Night is Dark and Full of Terrors. lol

        Quote  Reply

    76. Wimsey,

      Hmmm: that reads wrong, but I cannot put my finger on why….

      Ghost finally got Jon alone…and he’s probably oh so cold hahaha

        Quote  Reply

    77. Bearded Onion,

      Nah, he will make common cause with them. He knows he needs everyman and the guys that tried to kill Jon will look at him as some god and be loyal to him now. That is my opinion.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Is there any way

      Rickon doesn’t die? That Shaggydog and Osha come and tear Ramsay several new a-holes? I think it would be very fitting to have him torn apart by a direwolf. I think we can now rule out Roose and Walda being the 2 characters we know who are displayed on the Bolton crosses. Ramsay seems to be going in on this poisoning thing so there would be no reason for him to display their bodies to scare/taunt anyone. It would just be complete BS to bring Rickon back to kill him. (Yeah, total BS! said Siddig, Operei, Sebastian and Malahide…)

        Quote  Reply

    79. Bearded Onion,

      I am gonna speculate even further – total guessing – Jon actually leaves the Watch to go handle his business with Ramsay. Leaves Thorne in charge of the watch while he is gone. Well while Jon is gone the wall comes crumbling down on Thorne and Olly. That is how I think those two will die. Big chunk of ice just straight crushing them. Along with Marsh and Yarwick.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Laura,

      If he does, I doubt it’s immediately. Like you said, that wouldn’t make much sense. This just smells like a trap for Ramsay. I get the sense Rickon (show wise) can take care of himself and SD is no slouch either. These Umbers (and Karstarks) seem opportunistic which Ramsay may not account for.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Dolorous Methuselah,

      In some religions no one experiences an afterlife until the day of judgment; until then their souls reside in a state of oblivion (late).

      Interesting that Mel asks this question about the afterlife, I guess that reveals why she has lived so long, she’s afraid of death.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Wimsey,

      well, then count the Many Faced God in as well, the changing faces stuff is awesome. It seems then that it is only the 7and the drowned God that stay discreet.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Hodors Bastard,

      So if you 100% knew there was no afterlife. Just nothing. Wouldn’t that actually quite change you? Jon may think he can never be brought back again, therefore he never wants to die again. What I think would suck if he came back and said “oh guess what I talked to my dead uncle who I thought was my dad and you freaking brought me back from the afterlife? Damnit, well I am Rhaegar’s last living son, I am taking the throne then”. The whole nothing thing is scary an dark (pun intended).

        Quote  Reply

    84. Sou,
      The changing faces need not involve a god: that could be just some sort of magic.

      Stargaryen,
      Maybe Ramsay will pull a chunk of the Wall down on top of Castle Black in retribution for not giving back Sansa.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Twisted Targaryen: Jon’s watch ended when he died, he’s a free agent now.

      Does it matter that the words “now his watch is ended” were never spoken? They didn’t do the official ceremony/funeral. I’m just curious as to the procedure here…

        Quote  Reply

    86. kat_sk,

      Good point. Plus the words are awesome. Curious why they just leave him in the room? What would have happened if he never “woke” up?

        Quote  Reply

    87. Wimsey: Yeah, particularly for Olly.He watched his family and everyone he knew get butchered by Wildlings.And he’s supposed to forget that just because some bogieman is back?

      Here we go again. Snape had to die, had to – he killed Dumbledore (regardless of the promise that he made to do just this thing), he killed the lead guy, the “considered” other hero of the story and you can’t get away with that. I said so all these years ago and was right. I am saying the same of Olly. Yes, these things happened to him, but LC Jon took him in and kept him safe and took him under his wing, let him into his confidence (even though he also killed Ygritte). You don’t kill the hero without having a price to pay for it. Olly has to go!!

        Quote  Reply

    88. If the only thing that comes out of Jon’s death is a lesson in the fact the “life is precious”, I’m going to be pretty disappointed.

      Count me as one of the few who have been pretty underwhelmed with this season so far, I’ll remain cautiously optimistic about the next 8 episodes though..

        Quote  Reply

    89. Did anyone else notice Kit’s enormous package bulging out of those pant shorts? God…I wanted to put a gun in my mouth and end it after seeing that.

        Quote  Reply

    90. JCDavis,

      You all kinda forget the fact that Olly is a freaking kid! Kids do stupid shit! I personally can’t see Jon killing a young boy. Maybe someone else will do it. Or he will die fighting.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Bearded Onion,

      Where do I begin, my lords and ladies? I’m a vile man, I confess it. My crimes and sins are beyond counting. I have lied and cheated. Gambled and whored. I’m not particularly good at violence, but I’m good at convincing others to do violence for me. You want specifics, I suppose? When I was seven, I saw a servant girl bathing in the river. I stole her robe. She was forced to return to the castle naked and in tears. If I close my eyes, I can still see her tits bouncing. When I was ten, I stuffed my uncle’s boots with goat shit. When confronted with my crime, I blamed a squire. Poor boy was flogged and I escaped justice. When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew. I flogged the one-eyed snake. I skinned my sausage. I made the bald man cry! Into the turtle stew, which I do believe my sister ate. At least I hope she did. Once I brought a jackass and a honeycomb into a brothel…

      Tyrion is a 100% pure

        Quote  Reply

    92. Tycho Nestoris,

      I guess they would have burnt the body eventually – Tormund mentioned something about preparing a pyre. I’m just wondering about the lack of the ‘words’ and if it has any significance or not…

        Quote  Reply

    93. kat_sk,

      I think the heavy focus will be towards the end of the season, maybe even the battle. That could focus a lot on him.
      caliopesnow,

      I always thought he was a decent actor seeing him in a couple other things. His two biggest things Pompeii and Game of Thrones he acts the same so everyone thinks he is this medival monotone guy. I think he is pretty good in MI-5

        Quote  Reply

    94. Stargaryen,

      What can I say? I like that word. When I write enough without stopping to proofread, there are certain pieces of the lexicon that I’m inclined to overuse . Generally, I’m not aware of it – until someone calls me out on it. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    95. I am very excited about Ian McShanes part this season. Maybe we see some other loved character return from the dead. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    96. kat_sk,

      It will most likely be

      the Battle of the Bastards in episode 9. In fact, you’ve just restored my hopes that the episode will solely focus on that location and not have any other storylines 😀

        Quote  Reply

    97. BunBunStark:
      I just finished reading the entire lengthy article and it made me feel a lot better about Jon’s importance and presence in S6. It seems like this season is all about Jon and his fight against the WW and Ramsay. As an avowed Jon Snow fangirl this makes my heart happy.

      I remember Jon’s line to Qhorin Halfhand that he’d “gladly give my life” for the realm. So, I love that Kit says there being “nothing” on the other side makes Jon 2.0 really appreciate life. That’s some deep stuff for Jon and I can’t wait to see that conversation with Mel. I’m a little worried, though, that he doesn’t want to be brought back again if he were to die again. I guess that would make him fight even harder.

      And we got this little tidbit about Snowbowl:

      I actually feel much better about the fact that he doesn’t want to be brought back again. He needs that mortal danger to be truly human…without it, he would start losing that humanity. It’s also needed in the story to give us, the audience, that fear for his life.

        Quote  Reply

    98. kat_sk:
      Tycho Nestoris,

      I guess they would have burnt the body eventually – Tormund mentioned something about preparing a pyre. I’m just wondering about the lack of the ‘words’ and if it has any significance or not…

      They murdered him. I think we can throw procedure out the window.

        Quote  Reply

    99. JonFookinSnow:
      JCDavis,

      You all kinda forget the fact that Olly is a freaking kid! Kids do stupid shit! I personally can’t see Jon killing a young boy. Maybe someone else will do it. Or he will die fighting.

      I don’t forget he is a kid. Would you like to read account after account of kids killing people? Stupid, yup. But does it make them less accountable? That is the question. To me what you are saying is … so he is young, that makes it okay to be stupid. Did you kill someone when you were young and stupid? Also in writing, you can’t kill the good guy and get away with it. Just can’t.

        Quote  Reply

    100. dragonmcmx,

      Well, I thought so too, but that one quote from Kit throws me off. He says

      “There’s one episode this season, which is Jon’s story, that’s the most epic episode we’ve done.” The battle in episode 9 should be the most epic thing they’ve done so far, but would they include Jon’s story in the same episode as the battle? And aren’t the events of ToJ a part of his story as well? Do they spend more episodes on Jon’s story? He made it sound like there was just one ‘origin’ story episode…

        Quote  Reply

    101. Pigeon: Well, his name could be Frank. I’m just assuming he’s one of the ‘less nice’ Dothraki re: Dany.

      Because you know for a little while I really thought Khal Moro’s name was Moron. Was even thinking to myself that that was a really poor choice of a name.
      So Jerko would have been perfect!

        Quote  Reply

    102. Wimsey:
      ghost of winterfell,

      It is too late for that.We know that the Walkers are real.We know that the Old Gods or Tree Gods are real.We know that R’hllor is real.The question is: are they really gods?Or do they just have “godlike” powers?

      Now, the 7, the Drowned God, the Many-Faced God, etc., probably are like gods in our world.I doubt that we’ll ever get anything demonstrating their reality or falsity.

      Agree about the 7. I think they are the ones who are supposed to be judging trials by combat and by my count they are now 1 out of 3.

      The Drowned God, I think depends if you’re talking show only or show and books. If the books are included, I think I would argue that:

      Patchface’s prophecies, which I’ve always thought the Drowned God had something to do with (of course I could be wrong on that) are among the most accurate of any prophecies from any source in that world.

        Quote  Reply

    103. JCDavis,

      Well i can’t imagine him killing that kid. And it probably won’t happen because Owen Teale said there may be some sort of cooperation between his character and Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Hope it’s true. If it turns out that this is only a comic-book resurrection, I’ll be quite disappointed.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Stargaryen:
      Jared,

      I find your comment funny because you said altruistic twice.Made me think of Rocket from Guardians of the Galaxy.

      Rocket ROCKS my world. The best character from GotG by far and the music didn’t suck either.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Just don’t die a second time, Jon, and I’ll be happy! I need him, Bran, and Sansa to survive to the very end.

      I’m not surprised he would leave the NW. Besides the fact that his watch ended with his death, it was clear in Seasons 4 and 5 and in ADWD that Jon regretted joining the NW. His time with Ygritte helped him realize what he was missing out on, and now that he has this opportunity to live his life, he won’t let it go. I wonder if he’ll get a new love interest lmao 😛

      Hearing Kit say that Jon is the main focus of one episode, makes me hope my dreams come true and we get a full ToJ reveal this week. No need to delay it 😛

        Quote  Reply

    107. kat_sk,

      Oh man, I hope so! I literally just paid the $1.99 to read EW’s big Kit article and I saw that quote and thought “PLEASE LET IT BE EPISODE 3!” Then I came right here to WoW to see if people agreed – if we all just believe the episode he is referring to is episode 3 then it will be so! So believe!

        Quote  Reply

    108. Am I the only person who thinks that there are no gods in the ice and fire universe? I’ve always thought while reading the books that the different religions of Essos and Westeros are ways of its peoples to try and grasp an understanding of the forces of nature of this particular universe, magic beeing one of them. Thats why Jon says theres nothing on the other side, why theres really no sense in what gods supposedly do and will (something stated by various characters in the series and novels). And finally I think that the nature of this universe expresses the authors’ opinion in that there is only one constant in life and in the world, and that’s death (Aryas’ realization).
      Anyways, just a thought that I believe explais why Jon won’t become a fanatic.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Calling it now:

      Rickon will take Mance’s place in the show, locked up at Winterfell with nothing to keep him warm except a blanket made of Osha’s skin.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Bearded Onion,

      I didn’t get that at all from the article. Sounds like Jon is going to cherish life. [EDIT: Oh, I read more comments and now I see you’ve got it! But still, YOLO Jon!]

      Jon is literally like #YOLO!

      (Or in his case #YOLT)

        Quote  Reply

    111. Jack Bauer 24: They murdered him. I think we can throw procedure out the window.

      The NW, including reanimated Jon and the mutineers, could always perform the rite, using all the words Until His Death And Now His Watch Is Ended, while omitting the funeral pyre.

      Saying the oath and verifying that Jon had died would notify all that Jon had fulfilled his vows by satisfying the words if not the meaning behind the words.

      .Then Jon can change his uniform and set out on a new course.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Questions for those who have been keeping up with filming news:

      Where does Jon get his Stark armor from and when? Who gives it to him? Do you think there will be a scene addressing the change and Jon embracing his identity as a Stark?

        Quote  Reply

    113. Flayed Potatoes: Hearing Kit say that Jon is the main focus of one episode, makes me hope my dreams come true and we get a full ToJ reveal this week. No need to delay it ?

      Manless Face:
      kat_sk,

      Oh man, I hope so!I literally just paid the $1.99 to read EW’s big Kit article and I saw that quote and thought “PLEASE LET IT BE EPISODE 3!”Then I came right here to WoW to see if people agreed – if we all just believe the episode he is referring to is episode 3 then it will be so!So believe!

      Well, many people think that the epic episode Kit is referring to is episode 9 and I would agree but I don’t see how they would combine Jon’s origin story with the battle in episode 9. That makes me think the origin story is coming sooner and since ToJ has to be a part of his story, we could get it as soon as this Sunday.

        Quote  Reply

    114. The full interview is fantastic. There is so much information, it is almost too much to take in. The Battle of the Bastards sounds really exciting.

      I am a bit nervous about Jon changing too much, I do tend to like the fact that Jon was more of a good character, and that he was in a leadership position. Most of the other good characters are more in a position of service. I like grey characters, but GoT is mostly made up out of grey characters already.
      On the other hand it would be really interesting to see Jon act more selfishly. He has always been concerned with the realm, it will be nice to see him do something that he wants to do.

      I do think Olly, Bowen Marsh, Othell Yarwick and Alliser Thorne needs to be executed. The Nights Watch is your last place for redemption, if you cant follow the rules of the Nghts Watch then it becomes very problematic. The Nights Watch is really a place that requires stern discipline. If the traitors are executed, it will also show a change in personality within Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    115. kat_sk:
      Well, many people think that the epic episode Kit is referring to is episode 9 and I would agree but I don’t see how they would combine Jon’s origin story with the battle in episode 9. That makes me think the origin story is coming sooner and since ToJ has to be a part of his story, we could get it as soon as this Sunday.

      So is TOJ going to be in just one episode, some said they would split it, if so it could also be a later episode.

        Quote  Reply

    116. kat_sk,

      Yes, episode 9 seems to be about all the Starks who are part of the event, Ramsay, and the North as a whole.

      I see D&D wrote episode 3, so I don’t see why they would not include the big twist, if you know what I mean.

        Quote  Reply

    117. kat_sk,

      They way I understood it, he meant an episode solely focusing on Jon’s arc.

      Bastardbowl would be just that, since it’s really about Jon leading that battle against the Boltons (of course there are other characters around as well, but just like “The Watchers on the Wall” in season 4, this would focus solely on Jon’s arc since he’s the main character in that location).

        Quote  Reply

    118. Bearded Onion,

      It doesn’t sound like that at all, quite the opposite, in fact.
      According to the statement:
      Wasn’t scared of death equated to him being more honorable. Now he is scared of death because he knows there is nothing more. That would imply less concern with honor, and more concern with living.

        Quote  Reply

    119. This R’hllor god looks like a very materialist God. Keeps bringing people from the dead, lets red priestesses take poison and live 400 years, allows that you sacrifice your family in order to get the iron throne, demands a life for a life. What’s up with this God? What’s his end game?

        Quote  Reply

    120. Just read the EW’s full story.Its loaded with interesting tidbits & brimming with spoilers. One funny & non spoilery titbit Kit revealed was that he briefly fell asleep during the lengthy resurrection scene & woke up in the Game of thrones world with a terrifying feeling of ‘not knowing where he was’. HA!!

        Quote  Reply

    121. JCDavis,

      I thought the costume designer said Sansa makes her own clothes 😛

      Sansa is GoT’s own Betsy Ross. She’ll make the dresses, the armor, and even the Stark banners, while recruiting houses to her cause. Hype!

        Quote  Reply

    122. kat_sk,

      In the books, Jon has this recurring dream. He’s running all over Winterfell, trying to find someone, anyone. He can’t. Eventually, he goes down into the crypts where the Stone Kings are all telling him that he isn’t supposed to be there since he isn’t a Stark. I cannot help but think this is some greenseeing on Jon’s part, and that this scene will happen for real and be monumentally important. Some have speculated that Jon will find proof of his parentage in the crypts, Lyanna’s specifically.

        Quote  Reply

    123. dragonmcmx,

      True, that’s entirely possible. I read it more as an origin story that’s why I immediately jumped to ToJ and this Sunday but you are probably right.

        Quote  Reply

    124. JonFookinSnow,

      Jon, Bran, Sansa. I have other favorite characters, but they are secondary, so they probably don’t have much of a chance to begin with. Yours?

        Quote  Reply

    125. JonFookinSnow: Well i can’t imagine him killing that kid. And it probably won’t happen because Owen Teale said there may be some sort of cooperation between his character and Jon.

      He said there will be a brief understanding. I think Jon might understand where they were coming from but he cant just let it go. Alliser Thorne at the very least will be executed.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Could Jon become a Hound 2.0 with all this ‘honor is for weaklings’ thing? I don’t think he will become less honorable, but maybe he gets the courage needed to direct his honor to greater realities than a rushed and confused promise to men. I hope so. Wicked Jon is not good.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Ginevra,

      I love that scene in the books, always gives me goosebumps! There are so many little hints about Jon in the books that they would probably need one whole episode to tell his story properly… I can’t wait to see which parts will they include in the show – those must be really significant…

        Quote  Reply

    128. Last question: Is there an updated version of speculations about

      who are the two known characters burning in the crosses, now that Roose and Fat Walda are out?

        Quote  Reply

    129. JonFookinSnow,

      I’m hoping Davos survives (I don’t see him doing any fighting with his missing fingers, and he’s only just become Jon’s adviser figure/sidekick).

      As for who I think will die (putting this in spoilers just in case):

      Smalljon, Lord Karstark, Ramsay, Rickon, Wun Wun, some of the Northern lords supporting the Starks (no idea who got cast here and how long they’ll be on the show), maybe Tormund (though he’s the face of the Wildlings, so maybe he’ll make it), maybe Ghost. If Ramsay makes it to CB at one point during the season, I think Edd is a goner. What are your predictions?

        Quote  Reply

    130. Flayed Potatoes,

      I don’t think that many named characters will die. Smalljon Umber, Harald Karstark and Ramsay Bolton for sure. But on the Stark side? I’d say Wun Wun, and maybe Rickon —but that’s just a maybe.

        Quote  Reply

    131. JCDavis,

      Heh! Are my words being thrown back at me! Touché!

      Seriously, I can see this going any number of ways. I am betting on Jon showing mercy because of his new appreciation of death. But I will not be entirely surprised to be wrong, and I will be a little surprised to be correct. I simply have very little certainty about what Jon will do immediately.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Of course Jon will be changed from his experience, but I really don’t think he’ll be so different as to be a new character, or even to have magically forgotten things. People who survive near-death experiences are changed in all sorts of dramatic ways in real life, and it’s less mind-switching than it is a concentrated dose of character development. Beric talking about coming back lesser sounded a lot more like PTSD than misplacing horcruxes.

      When Kit (or any other actor) says something like, “It literally puts the fear of god into him…” I suspect he’s repeating a director’s direction, not revealing to the audience that Jon has had a religious epiphany. It’s pretty much the job description of a director to say a lot of hyperbolic stuff that helps actors emotionally understand situations they’ve never experienced themselves.

      If the only change that his death brings about is that Jon is suddenly willing to break his vows and a little more driven in pursuing his own life goals, well, that’s actually a pretty significant shift for Jon, not to mention the Starks in general. His death and resurrection become a hugely justified narrative catalyst because, looking back, it’ll the moment the protagonists stopped holding back on account of oaths and such. Hence, “Oathbreaker”

        Quote  Reply

    133. Regarding BB. Is weather a factor at all? I don’t see Ramsay leaving the safety of WF

      esp if he has Rickon or another hostage.

      Does NW/wildlings have the supplies to siege WF? Stannis just tried and failed.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Tycho Nestoris,

      What siege? Stannis and his army were slaughtered by Ramsay and his 20 good men, he didn’t even get to try. Still a little bit pissed about that…

        Quote  Reply

    135. JonFookinSnow,

      I can tell. That bothered me as well (not as much as Shireen, Barristan and Hotah but I digress).

      I think we agree that NW/wildlings have less a chance than Stannis? Interesting to see how this plays out and what changes, as BB is likely several eps away.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Stargaryen,

      Maybe, but I don’t see it as likely. I think it more likely that he will embrace his own will to live life to the fullest and instead of what he has done to this point, which is freely give his life away in the name of ‘honor’ and ‘duty’. He might actually decide to go after the kind of life he truly wants…the things that he gave up before in the name of honor and duty. I’ve nearly died myself before and what you are most afraid of is that you die without having truly ‘lived’. My guess is that Jon may feel the same way when he comes back.

        Quote  Reply

    137. In Season 1, Jon was so eager to go and join the Night’s Watch and spend his life at the Wall. Benjen Stark cautioned him about it, but Jon was adamant that it was what he wanted to do. After coming back from death, and realizing that this life is all there is, I think he will undergo a radical shift and want to get as far away from the Wall as possible. We know he’ll be at the big To-Do in Winterfell in Episode 9, but I wonder where Ep. 10 takes him.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Anyone else got a horrible feeling they have brought him back just for ramsey to kill him off at the end of the season.

      Seems like the kind of twisted thing george martin would do.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Am I the only one who thinks Rickon won’t die? I’m sure he’s the “gift”, but I still think he’s safe.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Kay:
      In Season 1, Jon was so eager to go and join the Night’s Watch and spend his life at the Wall. Benjen Stark cautioned him about it, but Jon was adamant that it was what he wanted to do. After coming back from death, and realizing that this life is all there is, I think he will undergo a radical shift and want to get as far away from the Wall as possible. We know he’ll be at the big To-Do in Winterfell in Episode 9, but I wonder where Ep. 10 takes him.

      Agreed. He was so adamant about proving his ‘worth’ to others than he never stopped to think about what he actually wanted out of life. I think he will realize that he has a second chance and he won’t want to waste it on worrying what others will think of him.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Dee: Dee

      It’s no wonder the female cast members were sending him letters saying goodbye even when the whole planet knew he was coming back.

        Quote  Reply

    142. JonFookinSnow: What siege? Stannis and his army were slaughtered by Ramsay and his 20 good men, he didn’t even get to try. Still a little bit pissed about that…

      That is not too far from what we are told happened in the book, is it?

        Quote  Reply

    143. I don’t think the gift is going to be Rickon. The Greatjon seemed like he was pretty loyal to House Stark, why would his son turn on them? What am I missing? If they present Rickon as the gift, Ramsey will instantly murder him.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Does anyone else think Jon’s answer is silly?

      I mean I am an atheist but just because he can’t remember anything doesn’t mean there isn’t anything after death.

      The physical mind and the spirit are two different things, once Jon died, his brain died, so of course he is not going to remember anything. Everything from that point on (if you believe in an afterlife) would be completely spiritual.

      So if his spirit was forced back into hos body through magic, of course his mind isn’t going to have any memory of what his spiritual form experienced.

      So him acting like those words have some huge heavy weight attached to them is just silly, IMO anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Arthur,

      LOL, and on top of that… The fact that he was able to return from the dead should be undeniable evidence that there is something more to just the life of your physical body and mind.

      So what the hell is he talking about? If anything Jon should be a believer of afterlife and all that stuff. His thinking is backwards.

      Anywho, I know the Jon Snow lovers will disagree with me. I also love Jon Snow but to me, Kit’s comments make zero sense.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Arthur,

      It’s the same answer that Beric gave Melisandre before. I don’t think it’s a lack of ‘memory’. It’s just what they experienced. So no, I don’t think it’s a silly answer.

        Quote  Reply

    147. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      I don’t think the gift is going to be Rickon. The Greatjon seemed like he was pretty loyal to House Stark, why would his son turn on them? What am I missing? If they present Rickon as the gift, Ramsey will instantly murder him.

      No he wouldn’t instantly murder him. He’ll use him as leverage. The gift will be Rickon.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Wimsey,

      It was just so ridiculously done! Episode 9 of Season 5 starts with Melisandre walking outside and suddenly all the tents around her ignite as if it was raining fire. And you can’t see any movement at all. Are Ramsays 20 good men invisible? Would explain why they didn’t even catch one of them.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Tycho Nestoris:
      JonFookinSnow,

      I can tell. That bothered me as well (not as much as Shireen, Barristan and Hotah but I digress).

      I think we agree that NW/wildlings have less a chance than Stannis? Interesting to see how this plays out and what changes, as BB is likely several eps away.

      Stannis did send Davos back to CB for more supplies and horses. Plus Jon & Co will have support from some of the northern houses. I think they may lack manpower though, at least at the beginning.

        Quote  Reply

    150. I recall Beric said the same thing when asked the same question by Mel. I suppose it’s OK as a character development mechanism- clearing the rest of his inhibitions to do what needs to be done and all that. I am not of the view that this will lead to anything but doubling down on his commitment to his duty and the substance of the vows, if not their form. There would have been no point to how the Hardhome episode’s message otherwise. I’m fine with the ghost stuff being mostly left out- there was no foundation for Jon warging on the show.

        Quote  Reply

    151. I love Game of Thrones interviews, can’t wait to read the magazine in its full glory.
      really glad game of Thrones is having such a great start to the season, here’s hoping the next batch of episodes are even better ^^

        Quote  Reply

    152. sj4iy:
      Arthur,

      It’s the same answer that Beric gave Melisandre before.I don’t think it’s a lack of ‘memory’.It’s just what they experienced.So no, I don’t think it’s a silly answer.

      If there was really nothing after he died he would perceive no gap in time on waking up and that is functionally the same as if Jon had lacked memory of any experience he had in the between time. If he actually had any memory or perception of what he identified as “nothing” it by definition couldn’t be nothing.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Wimsey: Yeah, particularly for Olly.He watched his family and everyone he knew get butchered by Wildlings.And he’s supposed to forget that just because some bogieman is back?

      Yeah, I don’t like what they did, but I don’t think they’re monsters for it and I’m a Jon fan. I get the impulses that drove Olly even if I’m not okay with where those impulses took him. *shrugs*

      As for Jon’s watch ending/vows, I’d love it if it wasn’t straightforward. And, that either way, he chooses to be an oathbreaker and walk away. He can live up to the spirit of the words but he walks away from the institution.

        Quote  Reply

    154. JonFookinSnow: Episode 9 of Season 5 starts with Melisandre walking outside and suddenly all the tents around her ignite as if it was raining fire. And you can’t see any movement at all. Are Ramsays 20 good men invisible? Would explain why they didn’t even catch one of them.

      Yes, it was a bit unrealistic to have all the tents ignite at once. But this is cinema: there is always visual compression. In reality, it could occur over 5-10 minutes, and that would be pretty quick: but you just threw away a big chunk of an episode.

      As for the men being “invisible,” if people living in that region did not have clothing that made them hard to see in snow, then something is seriously wrong. And they were committing acts of terrorism in an army camp that had been stuck for some time: as real history shows repeatedly, few things are worse for army discipline than immobility.

      However, I was referring to Stannis’ defeat at Ramsay’s hands in the books, not this act of sabotage. OK, it sounds like it was a little more dramatic and evenly fought: but the end result was the same.

      Arthur: I mean I am an atheist but just because he can’t remember anything doesn’t mean there isn’t anything after death.

      Ah, but if there is, then it’s not Jon’s mind, and that’s what people often think of as a soul. After all, if some entity that’s not your mind survives your death but your mind does not, then the core you – your thoughts, your memories – does not survive. Of course, we know that these things do not survive to death all the time: anybody who has had experience with Alzheimers or other forms of dementia know that those people basically lose themselves.

      What Jon probably would have is simply no memory of anything from the time he was stabbed to the time he woke up. Describing that sort of gap would be hard: oblivion is as good a way as any to do so.

      Arthur: The fact that he was able to return from the dead should be undeniable evidence that there is something more to just the life of your physical body and mind.

      How so? I’ve had computers die on me. I replace one key component and they came back working as well as before. That is not evidence that they have any soul! If anything, the ability to reboot a person would say that there is not any soul: if there is no ghost in the machine, then turning the machine back on would bring back the mind because the mind simply is a creation of the body.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Wimsey,

      How so? I’ve had computers die on me. I replace one key component and they came back working as well as before. That is not evidence that they have any soul! If anything, the ability to reboot a person would say that there is not any soul: if there is no ghost in the machine, then turning the machine back on would bring back the mind because the mind simply is a creation of the body.

      Okay so I can go on and on about this, but I will keep it simple so we don’t get into a crazy debate.

      You cannot compare a PC being fixed to bringing back a human being. Do PCs have blood that will harden? Brain cells that would die from lack of oxygen? Muscles that will atrophy? No they do not, so fixing a PC and “bringing it back to life” is not a very good analogy to bringing back a living thing. To bring back a living being like the way Jon snow was brought back, you have to defy all the known laws of nature. Does fixing a PC do this? Nope…

      So because of these facts, in order to not put my brain on hold and to make Jon’s resurrection work, we have to assume a supernatural act had to take place to bring Jon back to life. Now maybe you can say Mel’s magic brought his brain cells back to life and made his blood unclog and all that, or you can choose, as I have, that some kind of soul/spirit, life energy, whatever you want to call it, reentered Jon’s body (even Ghost noticed this btw) and broke the laws of nature and brought Jon back to life.

      This is how my brain interpreted the scene and to me it makes the most sense… Of course because its what I think.

      Also, I am not a religious nut, I am an atheist but I enjoy reading and seeing supernatural events on fantasy shows.

        Quote  Reply

    156. NewJeffCT: I mean, we lost Doran, Trystane and Areo Hotah in episode 1, and then Roose Bolton, Fat Walda and the baby in episode 2…the cast is shrinking.

      Yes, but we’re gaining Euron, some Karstarks and Umbers, Sam’s family, Ian McShane for an episode (Have they yet confirmed exactly what his character will be? Someone please let me know if they have, I’m really interested and must have missed it.) And probably some others I’ve forgotten. A new Red Priestess in Meeren, we got new Khals and wives, and are probably going to get somebody playing the Head Widow in Dosh Kaleen. In fact, even with the deaths already it looks like we will have a larger cast than before. IS IT SUNDAY YET?

        Quote  Reply

    157. The Sword Of The Moaning:
      It will be nice to see how they bring back Rickon. Manderley’s arc was one of the highlights of ADWD

      Yeah it was fascinating for me to hear “Karstarks, Umbers, Manderly’s” are the largest Houses etc

      I wonder if we will get at least one of them to turn to give some chutzpah to their cause

      As for Jon, IMO in the books he wargs into Ghost and comes back different, show isn’t doing this so they have to have a different reason as to why he’s different post-rez

      For mine I wouldn’t say it’s a case of they don’t see anything, rather that they don’t remember but each to their own…

        Quote  Reply

    158. Wimsey,

      Ah, but if there is, then it’s not Jon’s mind, and that’s what people often think of as a soul. After all, if some entity that’s not your mind survives your death but your mind does not, then the core you – your thoughts, your memories – does not survive. Of course, we know that these things do not survive to death all the time: anybody who has had experience with Alzheimers or other forms of dementia know that those people basically lose themselves.

      I totally agree with you here friend, no argument from me. People who claim to have witnessed bright lights or their relatives in heaven and all those kinds of experiences don’t realize when you get close to death your body has endorphins secreted to make it as calm and pleasurable as possible. So all these experiences are from a persons living brain, not from any person who has actually died. If you die there is no coming back.

      What I was trying to say is that perhaps in this fantasy world Jon is in, his physical body (including his brain) passed away but then he became something else, again call it what you want be for simplicity we will say spirit. And the experiences this spirit has is not transferable to your mind (therefore no memory).

      So when Mel brought Jon’s spirit back from this spirit world and into his body, he was resurrected. But if that was the case how would his mind have any memory of what his spirit did?

      Again, we can split hairs over this is you want. This is just how I interpreted this whole ordeal.

      And what Kit says made no sense to me because if Jon was indeed resurrected then you know there is something supernatural in his world and all things are possible.

      Also, in order to resurrect someone you have to bring them back from the dead. The very nature of resurrecting is to “bring them back”. Bring what back? His spirit/soul/life energy. So that being said, in this fantasy world Jon lives it, If I were Jon Snow, I would be more convinced of an afterlife, not less. Because Mel brought me back from somewhere…

      Again, two people with half a brain and decent communication skills can argue all day on this, and both be right.

        Quote  Reply

    159. I believe the only reason Olly and Thorne survived episode 2 was to show just how much Jon has changed. I have no doubt they will both be vanquished, by Jon, with the utmost urgency in episode 3.

      It’s going to be glorious.

        Quote  Reply

    160. Sou: Because you know for a little while I really thought Khal Moro’s name was Moron. Was even thinking to myself that that was a really poor choice of a name.
      So Jerko would have been perfect!

      Oh man, now all I’m going to think when I see Moro is “Hey, Khal Moron!!!” ?

        Quote  Reply

    161. Wimsey,
      Re stannis v ramsay’s best

      Our only source is Ramsay’s letter (the authenticity of which is a point of debate). I will spoil tag for the readers who aren’t there.

      your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle.

      there may have been a wow chapter but i have avoided those.

        Quote  Reply

    162. Jack Bauer 24,

      I dont believe infants ever get actual casting announcements/credits.. (for privacy, security..whatever) but i bet if they can a doll is used to make the job easier for everyone

        Quote  Reply

    163. Rich Stark:
      Just read the EW’s full story.Its loaded with interesting tidbits & brimming with spoilers. Onefunny & non spoilery titbit Kit revealed was that he briefly fell asleep during the lengthy resurrection scene & woke up in the Game of thrones world with a terrifyingfeeling of ‘not knowing where he was’. HA!!

      LOL. Maybe that’s the take they used. “Brilliant acting, Kit!”
      “WHERE IN THE F……oh. heh. Yes.”

        Quote  Reply

    164. Dez: If there was really nothing after he died he would perceive no gap in time on waking up and that is functionally the same as if Jon had lacked memory of any experience he had in the between time. If he actually had any memory or perception of what he identified as “nothing” it by definition couldn’t be nothing.

      Does it really matter in the end how he describes it? People with near death experiences describe all sorts of different things…it’s all in the eye of the beholder as to how one perceives the afterlife- or the lack of one. And Jon himself has said “I’m not a bleeding poet”…so I don’t think it’s fair to say ‘it sounds silly’ if he’s not being more philosophical in his description.

        Quote  Reply

    165. Jon’s response was, that there was nothing – not that he doesn’t remember anything. Nothing in this context could just mean, that there’s nothing worth mentioning.

      “Jon’s never been afraid of death, and that’s made him a strong and honorable person. He realizes something about his life now: He has to live it, because that’s all there is. He’s been over the line and there’s nothing there. And that changes him. It literally puts the fear of god into him.”

      The last sentence could just be Kit using this oxymoron to point out that Jon doesn’t care about being the teacher’s pet anymore, because there is no afterlife reward waiting for him. He doesn’t want to sacrifice himself or his life for duty and honor, he wants to live his life, because that’s all there is, and now he knows that there’s nothing waiting for him.

      My second interpretation would be, what if he doubts his previous beliefs? Did he really believe in the old gods, or did he just repeat what he was taught? What if Jon thinks that his lack of faith was the reason that there was nothing waiting for him after his death? Or maybe he believed in the wrong gods? What if that leads to Jon becoming a follower of the Lord of Light, after all he did bring him back? Beric became a follower of R’hollor, and he also said that there was nothing after death – and he died what, like 7 times?

      In regards to Jon killing Allister and Olly – why should he? He knows that the WW will come for them, and without the wildlings, they don’t stand a chance against the WW. There’s not much Jon could do to them, that the WW couldn’t do even better.

      Khal Moron, and Khal Jerko – that’s hilarious. Only one missing is Khal Jackasso. I must say Khal Jerko looks promising so far, especially for a show that has not pleased my female eyeballs since Khal Drogo’s death.

        Quote  Reply

    166. Jack Bauer 24: I think he was recast. Ramsay calls him “little man” and Art is now taller than Iwan so that makes no sense.

      Or, he’s talking to the fake Rickon! (A girl can wish, right?)

        Quote  Reply

    167. Jared:

      It’s very interesting that the first full episode that we’ll see featuring a resurrected Jon Snow is called “Oathbreaker”. Many of us had theorized that the primary recipient of that title would be Brienne, but as of this moment we don’t have any confirmation that she’ll actually be in the episode (she and Sansa may still appear – that appearance just hasn’t been confirmed from the preview, the synopsis, or the promotional photos).

      I now think it’s more likely that the titular ‘Oathbreaker’ will be Jon – as in, it’s the name he will be branded with by his enemies, both within the Watch and without.

      I understand the argument about the Umbers hating the wildlings deeply but I still don’t understand why they would betray the Starks just because the LC who let them in is a Stark “bastard”. We have to remember the Umbers also suffered from the Boltons and they must hate them, too. So, why not settle their problem with the NW then? It was not a Stark decision, it was the NW decision. Or, if they’re really desperate about the wildlings situation, they could just hold Rickon as a “bargaining chip” and tell Ramsay that if he drives away the wildlings, they would turn over Rickon to him. In the trailer though, it seems like they’re giving him (well, if he’s really the “gift”) to Ramsay right away.

        Quote  Reply

    168. Tycho Nestoris:
      Bergey,

      Kit’s comments are pretty damning. It’s interesting that Podeswa was so coy when asked.

      Well, even now Harington could still be trolling the fans? Until the next episode is aired its not worth speculating on if warging or not was involved. Hopefully we’ll all know on Sunday.

      If Harington suddenly has a desire to eat a bowl of Friskes or Pedigree Chum one can be rest assured that for a time he was boogieing around in Ghost’s head. Likewise if he gets off the table and running around on all fours sniffing the assholes of bitches around castle black that would also be a good pointer he did a bit of warging during his ‘dead time’ LOL 😀

        Quote  Reply

    169. I’m of the opinion that Jon won’t kill Alliser Thorne nor Olly. To me that seems more in character with Ramsey. Sure. I’d love to see Jon strike down Thorne ( after giving him a fighting chance ,of course) but, it would be wonderful to let him live long enough to see the real threat and have his last words be something along the lines of ” Why did I have to be such an obstinate asshole?”

        Quote  Reply

    170. Tycho Nestoris: I don’t see Ramsay leaving the safety of WF

      Of course he will. Ramsay always advocated for going out and fighting Stannis and screw safety, both in the books and the show. This time he’s in charge, so there’s even less of a doubt.

        Quote  Reply

    171. Wouldn’t killing Thorne et al. be the honorable thing to do for betraying their Lord Commander? Which makes me think newJon won’t do it, because he’ll say his watch has ended so bringing them Justice isn’t his concern anymore.

        Quote  Reply

    172. JonFookinSnow:
      Wimsey,

      It was just so ridiculously done! Episode 9 of Season 5 starts with Melisandre walking outside and suddenly all the tents around her ignite as if it was raining fire. And you can’t see any movement at all. Are Ramsays 20 good men invisible? Would explain why they didn’t even catch one of them.

      There are such things as flaming arrows, what better way to cause panic? Use of decoy attacks to draw attention to one place while troops infiltrate another position. Especially so if this is done when the watch is being changed. Seriously the effect of small numbers of attackers against a demoralised and fatigued encampment shouldn’t be underestimated.

      This is attested in history as far back as Ancient Greece.

      And:

      The burning of enemy positions and equipment was not necessarily a complicated procedure, and many fires were set by individuals using common materials. When William of Normandy’s army besieged Mayenne in 1063, they shot fire into the castle to panic the garrison, while two boys stole into the castle in order to start a fire within. The garrison surrendered.

      Besieged forces would sometimes launch sorties in an attempt to fire the attackers’ camps or equipment. When Hugh Capet besieged Laon in 986–987, his troops became drunk one night, and Duke Charles’s men sallied forth and torched the camp, forcing Hugh to abandon the siege.

        Quote  Reply

    173. I take everything Kit says with a pinch of salt, let us not forget the whole I’m dead and never coming back thing he had going on.

        Quote  Reply

    174. Hodors Bastard,

      After reading what you wrote I have a thought that maybe, since in that world there IS no afterlife and Jon and Mel are both sure of that now, there will be a period of temptation to join the WW. Remember when Jon says to Mance he wants to be on the side that fights for the living? The only entities for human to become that truly go on living are those white walkers.

      Maybe that is why George made that comment, what was it, something about the Walkers being misunderstood, or not totally bad?

        Quote  Reply

    175. cosca,

      I certainly don’t want to start a discussion on religion but just a quick thing to say here in that I just don’t understand why atheists are happy being as such. I love being open to the possibility that there is something after this life that will be beautiful. When I think of this all being for nothing and rotting away like our individuality of spirit means nothing, it’s depressing.

        Quote  Reply

    176. Jack Bauer 24: I think he was recast. Ramsay calls him “little man” and Art is now taller than Iwan so that makes no sense.

      He is younger than Ramsay and in that context, Little Man fits.

        Quote  Reply

    177. Stargaryen,

      Why would he leave Alliser Thorne in charge yet again though? Seems to me, Jon will not be very smart to do such a thing, not to mention it would make him look weak to make such a decision. What about Edd? His loyal friend deserves the honor.

        Quote  Reply

    178. ygritte,

      Personally, everything you describe the afterlife as, I see as actually living. Why should I be depressed? I’m alive today, I will enjoy today and try not to worry about tomorrow.

      I don’t want to live forever- I want to live right now, to the best of my abilities. I absolutely respect others’ choice to feel otherwise, and to find comfort in religion- but I don’t need it myself.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Jack Bauer 24:
      Was baby Jon cast for the TOJ or will we only see Lyanna?

      They’ll just use Baby Sam (Gilly’s son) since all babies look alike, really. And are apparently the same size, too.

        Quote  Reply

    180. Stephen,

      He was sworn to secrecy…besides, no one believed him, anyway. Now he’s able to open up and talk about his role for this season like any other cast member. He has no reason to lie now.

        Quote  Reply

    181. It’s just hard for me to see D & D all of a sudden reintroducing Rickon, out of the blue, especially if he’s recast. Even if it was the original Rickon, most people probably aren’t going to remember him from season 3. I think if they reintroduce Rickon, he needs to be with Osha and there needs to be a little expository dialogue between them explaining what they’ve been up to. Will be interesting to see what happens on Sunday.

        Quote  Reply

    182. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      I don’t think he was recast based on previous filming news.
      And they can reintroduce him just the same as they did with Bran at the beginning of the episode.
      I don’t see what the problem is.

        Quote  Reply

    183. Newbietothegame,

      Bran is a much much bigger character, and at least we last saw Bran in season 4. I can count the number of talking lines Rickon has had in the series on one hand. I guess if they reintroduce him with Osha, that would soften the blow. But why would the Umber’s bring Osha with them when handing Ramsey Rickon as a gift? I’m calling it right here folks, Rickon is not the gift.

        Quote  Reply

    184. sj4iy,

      I’m agnostic, most definitely atheist about the afterlife. I’d be lying if I said that the thought of disappearing after death makes me happy. I’d also be lying if I said that the thought of disappearing keeps me awake at nights lol. It’s just something I accept. btw that “nothing” after death came up earlier, when Thoros had resurrected Beric. I think Mel asked “what did you see,” and Beric also said “nothing.”

        Quote  Reply

    185. In the ep. 3 preview we hear “they think you are a god” so I’m guessing Ollie is going to completely freak out, drop to his knees begging forgiveness and offering Jon his very soul for it, thus breaking his own oath to the NW. I hope Jon lets someone kill Thorne if he doesn’t do it himself. I haven’t read any of the books so I don’t know what to expect for most plot lines. I don’t mind spoilers though. I’ve wondered if there is anything left to Melisandre’s story. She’s served her purpose in bringing back Jon, but at the end of the episode she doesn’t know that she succeeded. I can imagine the next episode opening with her committing suicide thinking she’s completely failed. edit: never mind about that since it’s mentioned that she asks Jon what he saw. Other questions I have are if Davos ever finds out the truth about Shireen’s death and what about that nasty brat Robin Arryn? He was like a mini-Ramsey. Could he be the “gift” or does he ever come back into the story at all?

        Quote  Reply

    186. Stargaryen,
      ygritte: In that world there IS no afterlife and Jon and Mel are both sure of that now

      Interesting. Appreciate your responses. Although I am highly skeptical of an afterlife, I was wondering if GoT/TWoW would give any glimpse of a Limboland from Jon’s perspective. From our debates in the fall/winter, we were wondering who would be in Jon’s head or if Jon would be exposed to some knowledge/insight/pull while in Limboland. I was thinking there were some interesting forces at work behind the curtain, but given Kit’s admission, they seem to be going in the “make the most given the time that you have left” (as stated by Gandalf the White) direction. I am almost more interested in Mel’s reaction to Jon’s admission of bleak darkness in the episodes to come. Regardless, I guess I am cautiously optimistic about Kit’s statement, as it could play out differently in show and book.

        Quote  Reply

    187. ygritte:
      cosca,

      I certainly don’t want to start a discussion on religion but just a quick thing to say here in that I just don’t understand why atheists are happy being as such. I love being open to the possibility that there is something after this life that will be beautiful. When I think of this all being for nothing and rotting away like our individuality of spirit means nothing, it’s depressing.

      To me, atheists are like an organized religion to me. Anyone that claims to know anything is. That’s why agnostics are the best.

        Quote  Reply

    188. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      …the other thing is, how believable is Jon’s “nothing”? In Martin’s world, consciousness is sorta kinda tied to the body, but it can move past and future, in the case of greenseers, and can survive the death of its body for a time, in the case of wargs. Jon’s a warg. To me, his “nothing” almost sounds like forgetting rather than a real nothing.

        Quote  Reply

    189. This is so damn interesting!

      I was wondering this exact thing yesterday – what did Jon see on the other side. It’s interesting that he appears to have been self-aware, yet there was nothing else but that self-awareness. That raises the question of what happens when you’re aware of yourself, but there are no other people and no other things except you.

      Christ, this shit is deep.

        Quote  Reply

    190. …also, this puts Arya’s non-mercy killing of The Hound in new light. I’ve been mulling whether she was kind or unkind to him. I guess giving him the chance to live was the kindest thing of all.

      Being nothing and no one is kind of like death, I suppose. And, it illuminates the convo Arya and The Hound had with the wounded farmer. Arya said nothing isn’t better or worse than any other thing; nothing is just nothing.

      THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ‘MERCY KILL’.

      …word.

        Quote  Reply

    191. maria,

      That’s interesting, Maria. I always thought of the body as like the home page in your browser which you can navigate away from. So, what happens when your home page is shut down, or in other words, when your body dies and decomposes?

        Quote  Reply

    192. Arthur,

      If you die there is no coming back.

      …well, folks have been ‘dead’ for a while and have been ‘resuscitated’. Maybe it’s more a matter of what is death, precisely. How long must your heart and brain be flat before you’re truly dead. It seems that – potentially – if the body can be kept from breaking down(decomposing), and there is a way to restart a heart or brain, then, potentially, death doesn’t exist.

      I don’t think medical science has all the answers yet.

        Quote  Reply

    193. So he came back with a new frame of mind and that’s it? As if he just had a near death experience and is now back to normal, but with more ‘maturity’?

      That doesn’t sounds right. Every character in the series that has died and come back has done so with some real change. They are affected by the fact that they died, but here it seems he came back to normal, no issues from being dead other than he changed his mind.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Bearded Onion,

      HAHAH
      Read the books. Tyrion has been whitewashed in the show..Book tyrion after killing Tywin tries scaring hookers with his brutality, says really dark stuff about raping Cersei..the list goes on. Hes a good guy but extremely grey.. hes starting to come around again after meeting Penny and saving Jorah to join the Second Sons..
      But the show wants to have him hand out money to the poor and be a jolly little person who can do no wrong. I like show Tyrion but hes extremely distinct from the books.
      Jon, hes more serious and professional in book 5, convincing the Iron Bank to support the Nights Watch, fixes the greenhouses, mans most of the castles with the bulk of the Free Folk they rescued, the scope of his efforts is much more far reaching than the show having him shanked just for letting them through, even though that was Stannis.

        Quote  Reply

    195. Stargaryen,
      Stargaryen
      May 5, 2016 at 2:52 pm
      aabe,

      I think that may be an extreme. I think he comes back realizing how valuable life is and he can’t waste it sitting at the frozen wall. He now has a drive to save and avenge all the people he can in order to save Westeros. He understands life is precious since he is lucky enough to have a second chance at this thing called life. Death may scare him even more, but it also drives him!

      Quote Reply

      Well said!

        Quote  Reply

    196. Anon:
      Arthur,

      …well, folks have been ‘dead’ for a while and have been ‘resuscitated’.Maybe it’s more a matter of what is death, precisely. How long must your heart and brain be flat before you’re truly dead. It seems that – potentially – if the body can be kept from breaking down(decomposing), and there is a way to restart a heart or brain, then, potentially, death doesn’t exist.

      I don’t think medical science has all the answers yet.

      I agree, but some in the medical profession are coming around to the idea that a part of us does transcend death and passes into another realm. There’s just so many people who have flat lined, had no brain activity and then resuscitated (some even after several hours) who have recounted their ‘out of this world’ experiences.

      To me, religion doesn’t come into the equation. The events they describe are basically the same no matter what their faith (if any) was. As I see it, we are spiritual beings who occupy a physical body for a limited time and perhaps have done so many lifetimes over… Just my thoughts on the subject 😉

        Quote  Reply

    197. LatrineDiggerBrian: To me, atheists are like an organized religion to me. Anyone that claims to know anything is. That’s why agnostics are the best.

      Atheism is nothing like organized religion! Much of what both atheism and agnosticism (which really are the same thing) represent is the rejection of belief and the embracing of thinking. We use two completely different parts of our brains for thinking and believing, after all.

      (There is a definition of atheism as people who believe that there is no god whereas agnostics hathink that there is no god: but under that definition, almost all self-identified atheists really are agnostics.)

      But one thing to keep in mind with this series is that it is being written by an atheist/agnostic, and one who had religion forced upon him in his youth. Much as with Babylon 5 (who’s creator had the same background), we can expect a similar jaded view towards religion.

      Black Raven: There’s just so many people who have flat lined, had no brain activity and then resuscitated (some even after several hours) who have recounted their ‘out of this world’ experiences.

      If I recall, then studies of such things reports almost no commonality in the out-of-the-world experiences. Moreover, many people report nothing at all. The simplest explanation is that some people have hallucinations as their brain scrambles, and they recall those. At any rate, the fact that brain diseases eliminate the self so effectively indicates that there is no aspect of “self” independent of the brain.

        Quote  Reply

    198. maria: n Martin’s world, consciousness is sorta kinda tied to the body, but it can move past and future, in the case of greenseers, and can survive the death of its body for a time, in the case of wargs. Jon’s a warg. To me, his “nothing” almost sounds like forgetting rather than a real nothing.

      This is incorrect in three ways. One, Jon is not a warg. Jon is someone with the potential to warg. However, he is completely untrained, and he is not able to something as “simple” as consciously jump into Ghost. It is no different than the difference between someone with innate musical talent, and someone with innate musical talent who has taken lessons in how to play an instrument. Jon might become a warg: but to do that, he’s going to have to do what Bran did and what the Wildling wargs did: work at it.

      Two, and as a corollary, training is key for wargs. The show illustrates this. Bran goes from wolf dreams to being able to consciously jump into Summer. However, Bran never gets to the point where he can control Summer. We see better-trained Wildling wargs, however, who can basically use animals as drones, as Orel does with his eagle and as the Thenn warg does with his owl. The second life almost certainly is something like this: something taught that a skilled warg can do (and about which only a trained warg would know), not something automatic.

      Three, the second life does not preserve the warg’s human mind. What is preserved is his/her emotions (such as a deep hatred for a killer) and some reduced level of consciousness. The books give us very exact descriptions of what the warg’s presence in an animal’s mind is like: and it’s not a “human” mind.

      The exception to all of this seems to be Greenseers. Somehow, the link with the weirwood allows them to keep their human consciousness going for much longer. We might learn more about the “how” and “why” of this in Winter or perhaps even this season.

      At any rate, if Jon had been in Ghost, then the series would have shown us. We would have gotten Ghost PoV’s similar to what Summer has given us when Bran is warging. We would have seen that PoV go from Ghost to Jon as he woke up, answering our question as to why we were seeing this. And, of course, they would have had Jon actively warging on the show: not just the non-deliberate wolf dreams, but something like Bran does.

        Quote  Reply

    199. Anon,

      We’re not talking real life, right?

      In Martin’s world, some aspects of human consciousness can survive for a time in an animal, if the person is a warg and capable of that transfer:

      “They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.”

      An intact human body is necessary for long term survival, but what struck me is that Haggon is talking about some type of survival in an animal for days…even after the body is dead. Very weird. The show cuts these bits, so idk how much of it would apply. In the novels, Jon instinctively wargs and joins with Ghost a couple of times. Nothing like that’s going on in the show. However, Ghost is magical, Jon is too, and they have a bond. Who knows.

      Greenseers sound similar. So long as the body is preserved and “warged” with its tree, the consciousness can move through the weirnet. Bloodraven’s body is disgusting, corpselike, but it’s not quite dead. So long as it survives, his mind does, too. After his body dies, no clue. Maybe it’s the same thing as a warg: Something survives, for some time, then dissipates.

        Quote  Reply

    200. Wimsey:

      If I recall, then studies of such things reports almost no commonality in the out-of-the-world experiences.Moreover, many people report nothing at all.The simplest explanation is that some people have hallucinations as their brain scrambles, and they recall those.At any rate, the fact that brain diseases eliminate the self so effectively indicates that there is no aspect of “self” independent of the brain.

      I’m not going to get into a deep philosophical debate on this subject… Certainly not on WotW 😉

      I myself ‘died’ for a short period (probably only a minute or two) just before a heart triple bypass operation back in 2009. They hit me several times with the defibrillator and increasing the power each time before my heart returned to a normal rhythm. However, I was already under a general anesthetic at the time and had no recall of an NDE as such that some people do.

      However, when some resuscitated patients who had flat lined (and with no brain activity as recorded on an EEG) can describe in minute details incidents that happened or recall conversations between the medics in the OR or their family in a waiting room in the hospital which could only be possible if they had somehow ‘detached’ from their physical body, it makes me wonder.

      Quite what the parameters needed to experience an NDE I can’t say, but I did have an OBE many years ago which I remember vividly as if it happened yesterday! As Robert Monroe said in his classic book ‘Journeys Out of the Body’ – “We are more than our physical body” and of that I have no doubt.

        Quote  Reply

    201. maria,

      Oh. I think I see what you’re getting at.

      I was talking about real life. Maybe, to an extent, George is speculating about a human spirit, in real life.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Black Raven,

      I do believe detachment from the body is possible. I wonder what it is that detaches, though.

      I’ve found myself floating up at the ceiling like a birthday helium balloon that escaped, in my one conscious out-of-body experience as an adult. I used to have them all the time as a child.

        Quote  Reply

    203. Anon:
      Black Raven,

      I do believe detachment from the body is possible.I wonder what it is that detaches, though.

      I’ve found myself floating up at the ceiling like a birthday helium balloon that escaped, in my one conscious out-of-body experience as an adult. I used to have them all the time as a child.

      This is really off topic for this thread (and website), but briefly…

      The hypothesis is that we (and all life forms) have an energy field that encapsulates and connects with our physical body which itself is composed of sub layers. Often described as an etheric body and an astral body. During certain phases of sleep or in a deep meditative state, these subtle energy bodies separate from the physical body which to most people would simply be interpreted as dreams.

      In recent years, scientific research into ‘altered states of consciousness’ have shown that these invisible subtle energy bodies can be detected. If you’re interested in the subject, a good starting point is to check out the Monroe Institute at – https://www.monroeinstitute.org/

        Quote  Reply

    204. I’m familiar with the binaural stuff. I have the Monroe Institute cd’s somewhere…and Sbagen…and Mind-Workstation.

      🙂

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *