If you’re like me, you’re still reeling from the tense and chaotic battle for Winterfell. Don’t expect too much of a break, however, as Kit Harington has described this coming Sunday’s episode four as “one of his favorites”, and Emilia Clarke let it slip that the penultimate episode of Game of Thrones may be even bigger than “The Long Night”!
“One of my favorite episodes is four,” Kit Harington tells James Hibberd at Entertainment Weekly, “because the characters have seemingly got what they needed. The world is safe now. They’re celebrating and saying goodbye to lost friends. But as an audience you’re going, ‘This is only episode 4, something’s going to happen.’ And that’s the cool thing because I think the characters are aware of this as well. There’s something twisted and uncomfortable about it. It’s so Shakespearian.”
As for what comes after episode four, it’s hard to imagine anything topping “The Long Night” in sheer scale, but at the end of her latest appearance on Jimmy Kimmel Live!, Emilia Clarke insists that, though the remainder of season eight is “all insane,” episode five is “bigger” than episode three (though, it must be said, she could’ve been referring to it being bigger than episodes four or six.) She advises, “Find the biggest TV you can!”
We shouldn’t be too surprised about another big action setpiece taking place in episode five, since Miguel Sapochnik also directed that one, and traditionally the next-to-last episode of each season has given us some of Game of Thrones’ most iconic moments. In fact, if you followed our production coverage, you may already be aware of what may be coming. You can find all the relevant articles here, but beware of spoilers!
For some non-spoilery information that merely puts the upcoming battle in context, its shoot involved over 600 extras and took about two months to film – the second longest in Thrones history. You can clearly see the excitement on Clarke’s face, so get hype! She also appears to make an exploding gesture – whether that’s a hint for the episode or just her way of letting us know our minds will be blown, I’ll leave it up to you to decide…
It’s all well worth a watch as she discusses Kit Harington’s uncomfortable dragon riding experiences (apparently women are more, ahem, anatomically suited to straddling the back of a dragon), needing new friends who actually watch Game of Thrones (I volunteer as tribute!), and her awkward encounter with Beyoncé. Take a look at both videos!
So, what do you think will be so twisted and Shakespearian about next episode, and so much bigger about the penultimate one? Whatever it is, both will for sure have room to contain it, as episodes four through six are all almost as long as “The Long Night,” clocking in at around 78 minutes each. There being only three episodes left seems so limiting, but it means we have about four hours to be told the ending to this story!
‘This is only episode 4, something’s going to happen.’ And that’s the cool thing because I think the characters are aware of this as well’
So the characters are aware that this is Season 8 episode 4?
Mind blown.
I’m not ready for this to end 😥
Glancing at the YouTube comments it would seem many people hated The Long Night and believe the writers are hacks.
Is this the general view or has YouTube just become a cesspit for parroting hate?
The haters are always the loudest. Overall, it’s just a piece of the overall fandom who “hated” it, considering the episode has ratings way over 8 on IMDB. And I watched many reaction videos and they all loved the episode and got brought to tears… same with fellow admins in our FB (non-GoT related) group. They all loved it. Even one admin who doesn’t even enjoy GoT that much in general (labeled it “without heart and soul”) said she loved this episode.
That is Bran’s new role. Now that the NK is dead, Bran is the ultimate TV Guide. With his abilities, they will know the Episode title before us, too.
King in the North East,
Youtube comments are the sewer of society. That being said, there are plenty of hardcore fans, myself included, who were disappointed with the episode.
I’d have to agree with ya there… Although I’m not as critical as most, I’m a die hard GOT fan that was left feeling underwhelmed.
Ryan,
Raenarys,
Sure, and that’s fine. I am a little disappointed too, mainly because I didn’t see some things I wanted to happen for a long time. But that has more to do with my own expectations than it does with the writing. I also don’t spend my time overthinking every little detail (like: how did Arya get the drop on the NK, the NK’s motivations never being explored) and I’m generally satisfied with the explanations in the show (Arya trained as an assassin for nearly the entire show, the NK is an out of control weapon created to wipe out humanity)
Oh no, I’ve never questioned how Arya was able to kill NK. If ppl question that, they weren’t true fans of the show. I didn’t question the writing either, I was fine with that too.
My only issue was how abruptly it ended. For us to be fearing the NK for the last 8 years, I would’ve thought the battle would have been more drawn out. I’m still overall satisfied with the ep as a whole. I just wanted a little more of a fight with NK. 🤷🏽♀️
King in the North East,
☝🏽☝🏽
Raenarys,
Agree, my biggest beef as well. If that’s the end of his story, then he had no effect on 95% of the world and basically indifference and ignorance of the WW threat prevailed.
Raenarys,
Yes, I agree completely. That’s how I feel about it too.
It’s caused me to be in a sort of numb state about the show’s upcoming episodes. I know it’s the ending coming up, I’m just not really that excited about it because the biggest threat has already been dealt with.
“Shakespearean” makes me think tragedy. That doesn’t bode well!
I wonder if he is hinting at there being big repercussions for his revealing his Targaryen heritage to Dany. That could have tragic repercussions for him and for Dany and indeed the realm.
Also, I too am worried for Arya after she offed the NK. Where next for her? And what is with that trolling tweet by Vladimir Furdik? He is either trolling or implying that by touching things her turns them, but obviously, he touched Arya. I highly doubt Arya is going to turn into a WW (that would just be terrible on so many levels) so he must just be trolling right?!
I’ve watched episode 3 twice and I was better the second time. Too bad the macho fight between Jon and NK didn’t happen. A girl got the job done. Quick and to the point.
How I said before, I’m expecting some huge and unexpected event in 8×04.
It’s 1h.18m, there’s obiouvsly something else than a funeral, a council war and some KL’s scene.
The episode is tagged with “Violence” in the HBO Official Schedule. It’s not a generic thing, not every episode is marked with “Violence”. 8×02 wasn’t.
We don’t expect any major death after 8×03, but I suppose that we will be surprised.
Of course 8×05 will be the shockest and craziest episode. But I’m looking forward to 8×04.
Bit of a misleading line. That makes it sound like some actual horrible twist of fate happens right as they think everything is going their way, but everything isn’t going their way. They just lost 90% of their fighting force, much of the castle has collapsed, they’ve got upwards of a quarter million rotting corpses to dispose of, and an evil queen bent on destroying them still sits the throne with fresh reinforcements. The only character who has gotten everything they want to this point is Cersei, although even she really hasn’t as she’d clearly prefer Jaime to Euron. She’s at least positioned herself for success, but at the expense of no shot at true happiness ever.
If not for the need for yet another final confrontation, the writers could truly explore what this kind of devastation does to people. This is a triumph for the rest of the world, which doesn’t need to experience the long night. It’s not a triumph for the characters we care about. Jon was telling Sansa two seasons ago how tired he is of fighting, yet he keeps having something else to fight. It never ends. Daenerys finally gets to Westeros, only to lose almost all of her people and watch her oldest and closest friend die in her arms. Cersei wins the throne but loses literally every person she ever cared about. Jaime redeems himself and lives to fight another day, but is now faced with the prospect of going south with the aim of killing the only person he has ever loved.
I hope this is an episode of reflection to show how miserable these people are and how hollow of a victory this really is. But I guess there isn’t really time with a six episode season and more battles to get to.
Raenerys,
King in the North East,
I guess the whole point of the show though, that sometimes the worst things don’t get the attention they deserve, right? Or at least one of them. Other people, who are not affected by bad things, don’t care about them – and it’s so unfair that they never actually have to deal with it (just thinking about how some people compared the AotD to climate change etc). That’s reality – some really important people don’t know or choose to not be perturbed by the worst things happening around!
The more I think about it, the more I obvious it is that the stars are correct in saying the ending would be “divisive.” This last episode was a snapshot of this – people were disappointed that the supposed “biggest threat in the world” was dispatched with relative ease, never mind the fact that prior to the Battle of Winterfell, the army of the dead was undefeated in every single battle they fought.
This article from the Hollywood Reporter pretty much sums everything up perfectly, IMO:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/bastard-machine/critic-impossible-task-pleasing-all-game-thrones-viewers-1205896
Depends which Shakespeare tale he thinks of. Hamlet, Romeo or juliet another?
And Emilia is fantastic. I’m wondering what will happen in 5. Probably kings landing. And I think the scale will be bigger because kings landing is bigger.
King in the North East,
General view if I hear the people here in the Netherlands. Most people loved the episode didn’t hate it. But didn’t think it was as good as they expected. (I think too many people expected a helm’s deep kind of battle).
But there’s always people praising mistakes. And there’s always people criticizing things that is rediculeous to criticize.
I always say if people like it good. If they don’t it’s also fine with me. Not everyone can have the same opinion as me, and sometimes I will stand alone.
Luckily here people are respectable of each other.
King in the North East,
It’s because YouTube has become a cesspit for parroting hate. It’s just a very vocal minority. The episode stands on a solid average 8.8 on imdb based on 107.658 votes.
It also has an average rating of 8.97 based on 94 reviews on Rotten Tomatoes.
Simply put: It’s a great episode!
Hello All,
First to say Im realy enjoying to read articles and comments.
Second I still hopeing that NK story is not finished yet.
For the moment is looking to easy.
King in the North East,
But you can’t blame people for doing that. Got started as a show much much more brilliant than most shows. How everything fits together perfectly, everything was think over perfectly the motivations of characters, if a scene works etc, that was more important than making every scene “excited without context” . People get use to that and once the writers even drop 10% of that brilliants people will notice it. Even if we het a 9.5 people expected a 10 because that’s what we got in the past.
Che,
What was his direct tweet? 😮
Adam,
This is a really great point. Hadn’t really thought about how conflicted each of the main characters will be.
If we get more of the types of scenes we did in episode 2, focussing on these very dilemmas, I’ll be super happy.
Apollo,
For me- Sunday’s episode will be like a post-coital cigarette! And I don’t even smoke! 😂
LittleFoot,
That comparing white walkers to climate change was grrm himself. He is a big fighting to stop climate change.
The Wolves of Winter,
Wow rotten tomato has a deserving rating for a chance.
Che,
Ps lovely fuy furdik his tweets are all so with excitement and he also stated episode 4 will have a shakespirean twist. Hmm how did furdik know what happens in 4. Was he with the script reading?
But I can’t find his tweet about touching to make a white walker.
NorthRemembers,
How was that easy?
https://mobile.twitter.com/vladimir_furdik/status/1122435697636409344
It could also be about Bran now I think of it…
In truth, he must be trolling!! No way he would drop a hint at something truly shocking like that!!
The Wolves of Winter,
Those are low scores on the GOT scale. I believe its a bottom 5 rated episode ever on RT and it’s in the bottom half on IMDB.
In the last days the haters are spamming the IMDB rating with a lot of “1/10”. It’s not more reliable.
The episode started monday with a strong 9,5 / 9.6, but in the next weeks it will be the lowest episode of all time, consequence of the fake stormshit.
Very much the latter, and it has been that way for a while. YouTube has said that it is going to try to reduce this, and they’ve taken steps by banning individual hate-sites; however, their general search algorithms still non-randomly go to these sites.
This obviously is a much more general issue than GoT, of course, but GoT is no exception.
I just have to say – Emilia is such a lovely, charming lady. I always enjoy her interviews.
Why did Qyburn name his big crossbow a Scorpion?
I wondered last season, but it was not made evident.
Hmmm.
Dany’s vision from HotU has single dragon shadow.
@Young Dragon
I was expecting from the build up that NK will be more tough opponent.
I still think that this is not over.
And for the record I think episode was very good.
I’m not familiar with all of Shakespeare’s work so I’m not sure what to expect. Not all his stories are tragedies though, right?
Adam,
Brilliantly stated.
Ah, but a lot of what old Willie wrote was not “Shakespearian”: that word usually is reserved for things like Hamlet or R&J or the other “I’ll cause one tragedy by trying to avert another” stories. (Those in turn wound up influencing people like Faulkner, who in turn influenced GRRM.) Shakespeare wrote a lot of RomComs and just general comedies: but nobody calls those “Shakespearian!”
(That actually says a ton about Shakespeare.)
Qyburn didn’t name the scorpion. That’s the name for that weapon in real life.
Tyrion81,
You can’t apply that logic to this episode only. After every episode itll get influxed with plenty of 10/10s if its great and 1/10s if its not great. End of the day, its going to be a lower rated episode.
That being said, RT is still a more reasonable rating since its mostly people who do it for a living…. and by that measure its a bottom 5 episode.
Although, my biggest quibble with Episode 3 was “I can’t see in the dark, dammit,” I loved the episode. My TV died later on the same day. LOL So for this week, I have a brand new TV and I’m going to watch the ep. 3 over again, and I’ll brighten up the screen.
I think there are some really important story arcs yet to come. Jon, Daenerys, and let’s not forget, Tyrion. I just have a feeling that Tyrion’s character is being maligned for good reason, his story is going to be so much bigger. JMHO.
Luka Nieto,
More commonly called a ballista.
Will there be a double meaning to the name?
I am curious to see if this is part of Cersei’s “plan for the dragon queen”
I really never read the comments on YouTube unless it’s my daughter’s YouTube channel.
Tobias Umber,
It’s what that weapon was actually named in Roman times. I don’t know that I’d read more into it, although of course—I could be wrong!
His “Shakespearian” works are. He is one of those rare artists who excelled in a wide range of “genres.” However, Shakespeare was to tragedies what (say) Bach was to Baroque or Mozart was to classical opera; he was carving out new territory in those plays, whereas Shakespeare was just putting out really good (or OK or sometimes really bad!) comedies, etc. (I once saw someone refer to “Shakespeare’s Lesser Known works; also known as, his stuff that sucked.”)
And, to nip the “nobody cared about climate change in the 1990’s” retort in the bud, educated people knew and cared about it by the 1980’s.
Che,
Depends if it’s a half truth. What if he can warg into bran. It’s still a shock. Or what if there’s a rwason why bran couldn’t transform. Maybe the 3er is nog as good and pure as we would think. Or maybe the 3er is the lord of light.
Man, I really like Kit’s description of “Shakespearean”.
I’ve noticed a push in PR since Epsiode 3 with Emilia, Kit, and D&D making appearances. Do you think they realized they would need another PR push after the dead were defeated? People may just think it’s over!! (as many probably felt) and not feel like they need to tune in anymore. Of course those hard core fans will watch every second no matter what, and I’ll be glued in to the 2 hour documentary the week after. For those who are more casual watchers, my guess is that D&D may have realized that many would have thought it’s over after Arya took her Wolf leap.
I can say I’m pumped up more just reading the headline of this post and after seeing Emilia’s interview. I knew something big must be planned with 3 super sized episodes left, but it was hard for me to get pumped up just thinking about Cersei. I do want to see her taken down, but there’s gotta be more to it than that.
Wimsey,
Thanks for this explanation. Now I’m intrigued about what this could mean to our favorite characters. If Kit is right, then this episode could give us some earlier seasons vibes.
If I recall, then the ballista was a type of scorpion that shot much larger missiles. It might be that all ballistas are scorpions, but not all scorpions are ballistas. (That stated, I seem to recall that ballista often could double as giant sling shots, too.)
This kind of sh!t is totally sick! The people who would engage in this kind of thing are sick. However cliche it may be, it’s always important to remember that “criticizing is easy; creating is hard.”
Ryan,
It’s ranked low on RT because of the approval rating (74%), which tells us the amount of positive reviews. But doesn’t say anything about the quality of the episode. That’s what the average rating (8.97, which is very high) is for.
If every critic gives a movie a 6 (mediocre) it would have a 100% approval rating, but the movie would still be mediocre.
Well, we already got a “Shakespearian” setup to begin the season, in that we had a lot of building tensions between characters because of misunderstandings or partial information. Some of that has been erased: for example, Sansa’s “why did you sell out your crown and bring all of these unnecessary foreigners!” issue with Jon probably is going to get severely dampened; now she knows just why Jon was so desperate for help. Still, humans are not automatons: and we often retain the initial feelings long after we know that the root cause of the feelings are baseless.
I.e., it’s sort of like learning, I don’t know, that you have fought a major war because nobody knew what actually was happening!
Could Qyburn create a new Night King? That is my prediction.
Apart from two “Hodor”s, I have only lurked so far. And since this is the first post where comments are not an overwhelming unison of amazement, and the not-so-excited comments stand out more, I’ve decided to join in.
The episode was epic, visually second-to-none, taken by itself and out of context it was the best piece of TV (or cinema for that matter) ever, no doubt. But the problem is – there is a 7-year context in which this episode doesn’t really fit. This is not the same show it was seven seasons ago.
I don’t have a problem with Arya killing the Night King. That’s okay. It was also executed nicely (a wind blowing past a white walker lieutenant, who then takes a distracted glance to his lower-right, and then a jump out of darkness, with her move foreshadowed in her Brienne sparring fight – pretty cool). I also don’t have a problem with valyrian steel being able to accomplish what dragonfire couldn’t – the walkers have demonstrated already that they are immune to fire, but vulnerable to dragonglass and valyrian steel. I also don’t care that there were no direct one-on-one fights between either the Night King and Jon or whomever, or any of Night King’s lieutenants and whomever. That actually made all the sense in the world – since a death of a walker kills all of the wights he turned, not putting them in the front line was a really smart move by the Night King.
My problems with this episode are:
– Melisandre didn’t really get the redemption her character deserved. I was expecting a huge self-sacrifice by her, some selfless act that would make a real difference, a real contribution to the victory, at least that’s what she announced to both Jon (“you know I can help you win that war”) and to Varys (“I have to die in this strange country”). Yet, her contribution didn’t really help (in the end, none of her actions made any real difference), and then her death felt even more meaningless (she simply decides to die, she didn’t really *have* to die as she said she would).
– The conclusion to the White Walker story feels empty. They were built up as the biggest threat since the very first scene of this show (as a comparison Cersei became a real threat only in season 5 or 6). However, they were not only built as a threat, they were built as a mystery – who are they, what they want, why now, why Bran in particular? Very few answers were given. I just can’t settle with the idea that they were flat, single-dimensional evil hell-bent on killing humans. They were capable of forming pacts (they left Craster alive in exchange for his sons)
– Bran’s contribution to everything was non-existent. Benjen said “when [the Night King finds his way to the world of men]… you will be there, waiting for him. And you will be ready.” These words have no meaning now – in what way was Bran ready? How exactly was Bran waiting for the Night King? Sitting there in the Godswood helplessly doesn’t quite qualify as “being there, waiting for him… ready”.
– On a minor scale, I am pretty unsatisfied with all the plot armors and deus as machinas that were over-utilized in this episode and that we have to take for granted. They didn’t serve the story in any way, they only served as tension devices, to increase suspense. I just can’t imagine the same kind of plot armor being worn by Ned Stark when Joffrey demands his head, or by Robb or Catelyn Stark at the red wedding, or by Oberyn Martell when he was on the verge of killing The Mountain, or by Hodor, or Jojen, or Rickon, or Jeor Mormont, or Gren, or Pyp, or Blackfish, or Ygritte, or anyone else we cared about during this series. While the Knights of the Vale deus ex machina was credible in the battle of the bastards, the way how most of the characters survived this episode is just, well, miraculous. And no, I don’t buy the “but this is a fantasy story, we have zombies and dragons, why is it so difficult to believe this” because the show has to have some consistent, coherent mechanics credible within its reality. Jorah appearing outside in the field after having fought on the battlements earlier, with all the wights constantly creeping into Winterfell, was just a kind of a deus ex machina that demands too much of us. It serves the purpose, it does help close Jorah’s arc nicely (dying in defense of his khaleesi) but his miraculous appearance is miraculous and incredible. I honestly expected Gandalf to appear with the Rohirrim at some point to resolve the battle.
While the episode was really spectacular, that’s unfortunately all I feel it was – just an amazing eye-candy spectacle, which not only didn’t advance the story, but actually set it back by discarding so many plot lines that awaited conclusion.
Still, I am hoping for that promised third unexpected twist, and I feel the overall story is not (yet) beyond repair.
The Wolves of Winter,
That system makes even less sense. Winterfell, and AKOTSK, which most people would consider better episodes, have “ratings” of 7.92 and 8.29 despite far more critical favorable reviews. So however they’re calculating this “rating”, its convoluted and misleading. Critics have all different methods of “scoring”, if they do it at all. You won’t even find an explanation of how the “average rating” is done.
I was massively disappointed by The Long Night. I loved the first half, but then it got really preposterous. Here are my criticisms:
Melisandre acted like the Microsoft Help Bot, showing up to offer help and answer questions in the midst of a chaotic battle. “Here you go, some fire to help you.” “Hey, here’s a tidy explanation for Beric’s resurrections and why he’s now dead. Go close some blue eyes now, okay?”
Somehow the Dothraki get snuffed out in a matter of seconds, while, once again like in Beyond the Wall, the heroes are able to hold of swarms of wights long after all the red shirts have fallen. They could have at least retreated to the crypts and try to barricade the dead out, but, no, they’re all out in the open killing all the hapless storm trooper-like wights.
Arya’s Splinter Cell scene in the library. Why do the wights go from running, growling, attacking, to just standing and walking around? Were they reading and checking out books? Did Measter Wolkan have a sign up that said “No Running and No Talking?” Silly.
Arya killing the NK was the nail in the coffin. It would be like if Legolas skateboarded out of nowhere to knock the ring into Mt. Doom or if Han Solo shot Palpatine in the back while he was electrocuting Luke in ROTJ. Sure those characters have the skill to do that, but it doesn’t make sense in the story for them to do so. Arya has nothing to do with the White Walker plot until this season, then she saves humanity? I guess Tormund should kill Cersei.
Mediumsizedfolk,
Very good response. I agree with many of your points. Hoping that the last 3 episodes suss out some of these qualms, but my hopes are dwindling…
Mediumsizedfolk,
I agree with you on 2 points and on 2 points not.
– mellisandre did get her redemption arc. You clearly can see that in davos eyes. He was ready to take her out at the end. And then he saw the truth behind Mel and he understands her for the first time. He stop going after her.
– bran did more than people saw. He was the one that make sure the nk knew he was in the godswood. He was the one that put everyone in place where they belong. You saw it in brans face at the end. He wasn’t scared.(even the last 3er was scared at the end that bran was maybe not ready). He stared the nk down the way he did without fear because he knew the nk was defeated. He put everything in place the way it should have been.
When I think Shakespearian, I think of mistaken identities (lots of masks and gender switching leading to some hilarious misunderstandings, as well as tragedies) and miscommunication. I can see how those themes would be in play here.
Tyrion81,
Yep. The percentage of 1/10 ratings has doubled in the last few days. It now has a higher percentage of 1-star reviews than any of the previous worst rated episodes of the show.
That amount of people giving it 1 out of 10 is simply absurd and patently the result of bitter internet rabble-rousing.
Giving such a spectacular episode of a television show 1/10 is ludicrous on the very face of it. I thought Beyond the Wall was illogical nonsense last season, but I would never consider rating it 1 out of 10 because there were obviously impressive and entertaining aspects to it.
And The Long Night was an astonishing spectacle for a TV show, regardless of what people thought of the conclusion or individual aspects.
Fair play to anyone who was really disappointed with the episode’s conclusion(s) but was still mature enough to give it a respectable rating.
It’s not real Vladimir Furdik’s twitter account. It’s a “Fan Page” as it says. Also – the English level of whoever runs this account is above the level at which Vladimir Furdik speaks (real Vladimir Furdik – check his interviews – doesn’t speak the same English that this twitter account speaks). This tweet is pure trolling, nothing more.
Mediumsizedfolk,
You should comment more; I really like what you say here. As much as I enjoyed the episode it did feel out of place in the ways you describe. This episode is the first part of three that fit together, so I think, hope we get explanations as the next two come up, Like the Bard’s work, there is much that is hidden to be revealed at the right moment
Kevin1989,
I can also see your points here
Still, to me it seemed Davos was more like “I’m about to kill you, but let me first see what you are up to”. I would see Melisandre as receiving the justice her character craved if her contribution really mattered. However, nothing she did in this episode really made that difference. The Dothraki all died within the minute following her act (in fact – they simply beefed up the Night King’s army with more soldiers). The trench only stopped the wights for a few minutes. While visually amazing, and providing short-term satisfaction like “wow, there *is* hope, ultimately none of these acts qualify as “I can help you win this war” she promised to Jon. Don’t know, I am not convinced, really. Her death felt meaningless to me. Consider this episode without Melisandre. Dothraki charge or not charge, and they still probably all die. They fail to light the trench and the castle gets stormed a little bit earlier. The only other thing she did, telling “what do we say to the god of death” doesn’t really align with the magnitude that she made me expect of her character. But I get it – it’s the expectation problem, and I am aware of it. My bad here.
And Bran… What you say does make sense, but it doesn’t really show that much in the episode. To me it seems more accidental, rather than intentional by the writers.
I hope that, too! I am too much invested in this show and this story to just give up 🙂 In fact, I am quite sure we are up for a surprise that will also make a lot of sense out of episode 3 (deus of machinas aside).
Possible things in store for Team Stark and Team Targaryen in episode 4:
I’m thinking identity reveal will definitely be the focus. Jon has to tell Sansa and Arya now, doesn’t he? How will they react? What does Jon feel about all of this? How will Daenerys handle the truth? How will everyone else find out? Have certain people already been suspecting something? Everyone saw Jon ride a dragon into battle after all.
This leads us straight to the various political issues at hand, especially Dany’s and Jon’s competing claim to the Iron Throne. Does Jon even want to contest with her? Will Sam, Sansa, Tyrion and Varys begin to scheme? I also expect Tyrion’s and Varys’s loyalties to be somewhat tested, the foreshadowing has been insane.
What are Dany’s expectations regarding the fealty of the fractions gathered at Winterfell? When he was king Jon may have pledged the North to her cause, but what about the Vale? And what about the Freefolk? Will she expect them to fight for her? And who currently holds power in the Riverlands? Is it Uncle Edmure? I also expect that Northern independence continues to be an issue that may come into play as bargaining chip later.
Then there are the military issues. What battle plan do Daenerys and Tyrion have for taking the Iron Throne? How high are the number of their overall losses? What would be the logistics for an attack on King’s Landing? Will Daenerys call on Daario and the Second Sons for reinforcement?
And of course there are various people who need to clarify their relationship status. How will the parentage reveal affect Jon and Dany’s personal relationship? How will Jaime and Brienne’s relationship unfold? And what about Gendry and Arya?
Other things that come to mind: Is Sam still in the Nights Watch or is he technically the new Lord Tarly? Does Team Targaryen know they have a Baratheon bastard in their midst? And where is Bronn with that crossbow?
All in all, this sounds enough Shakespearian to me.
King in the North East,
It is because the show runners have killed all their fan theories and have shown all the fandom celebs that they are only guessers, and all their arrogant postulations are zilch! No one saw Arya coming. That’s why the bile and hate is so much
It makes sense, but people keep looking at the % number to see if a movie is good or not. Which it doesn’t. Which is why I don’t take their rankings seriously, because they’re based on the wrong number.
I don’t know why e1 and e2 are rated lower, but I don’t care. I loved all three episodes so far and all got high ratings regardless of the actual specific number. To me season 8 is on the right track.
And if you personally didn’t like it that’s fine.
Did Shakespeare write for Marvel movies? Because we’re going to get more Hollywood slo-mo endings, if Arya’s Invisible Girl/The Flash stealth mode kill through a single entrance, past dozens of WWs and hundreds of undead, and covering over 100 feet of open ground undetected, is to be believed. Or maybe she just fell out of a tree. Or maybe she is magic. Who knows?
Hey, I enjoyed the spectacle and I love Arya. I just can’t buy it, not then and not a week later. A knife throw or arrow shot at 50 feet would have been more believable, and in keeping with her skill set under the circumstances. But at this point, the writers can come up with practically anything, so long as it’s “cool” or better yet, unexpected, and gets the story forward to where they need it to be to wrap this up.
Just would have thought the epitome of death would be a bit tougher to snuff. And a bit smarter as far as lingering before acting. He basically pulled the equivalent of the bad-guy monologue, giving our hero(s) time to find a way out.
It is currently an 8.8. And while that is really good, it does make it the lowest rated battle in Game of Thrones history on IMDB. Also overall, it places it tied for between 49-56 place out of 70 episodes. While I don’t put a huge amount of stock in IMDB, since you brought it up, it has to be said those numbers would make it fall into a low tier episode of Game of Thrones on IMDB. It is in the bottom 3rd.
I noticed the poll on this site as well (as I currently write this) 3 stars is the one winning with even 2 stars getting a fair amount of votes. I guess it’s probably fair to say at this point it just didn’t come off as well or as universally liked as they probably were thinking it would.
Rather tired of people trying to excuse the shows mistakes by suggesting critics are haters in a cesspool. You all seem to forget this is a story about Targaryens not Starks or Lannisters and Greyjoys, they are coincidental to the story. So for them to reduce Jon to a charater that shouts at Dragons (name of pop band anybody?) rather than fulfilling his role in the stories destiny is inexcusable. (It’s as if they are getting back at George because he refused to divulge more of his plot to them thus turning Jon into an underserving dolt) When your audience is uncritical in its thinking, when criticism in not permitted that’s when you start getting problems. You might as well put on a red baseball hat.
orange,
I’s low on IMDB because 8k people put a 1/10 vote to it and I personally can’t take those votes seriously. People don’t like something and suddenly they put a 1 star rating? Like you said, if they voted 6 or 7, I would take it in more account. But 1 star? I always ignore those as that’s so un-fan like in first place. But I personally don’t give sh*t about IMDB ratings because I only care about how i rate it myself and i personally put it on top of my ranklist and that’s the only thing that matters to me. My point is only that according to ratings there, majority of people still loved it. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be this high.
David Nutter and the stunt co-ordinator said there are more big deaths to come. Said we will be losing some favorites. He said we’re gonna have something on the level of the Red Wedding type pain & shock. That’s gotta be episode 5 and it’s gotta be one of the Starks girls or Dany right? I’m expecting another great setup episode this week followed by a soul crushing slaughter where we lose 3-4 of our top characters.
This is exactly why I can’t take IMDB rating seriously. It’s just beyond ridiculous. I personally can’t even imagine rating a GoT episode below 7, even the episodes I enjoyed the least.
Direwolf Lvr,
Bad guys do like their monologues don’t they.
I have to say though, I could tell that the NK was looking confused at Bran. I think the NK was realizing something was up. It wasn’t quite the same as the High Sparrow’s look when he realized what was happening at the very last moment. The way the NK stopped, I honestly thought he was trying to figure out what Bran was thinking. Bran knew what was going to happen, and then Bran looked slightly over the NK’s shoulder. It was a big moment for the NK after so many thousands of years to finally have the 3ER in his sights, so I could see how he wanted to savor it, but I could also see that Bran’s stare froze him while he was trying to figure out what Bran was up to. I honestly did get all of that out of those slow mo shots and I don’t think I’m reading too much into it.
And I agree. Personally I don’t like ranking, because to me GoT is a 74+ hour movie. On all those websites all episodes hover around a 9 rating, which is fine by me.
The Wolves of Winter,
I personally have a 7-10 scale in case of GoT. There was no episode so far I would rate lower than 7. I personally can’t even imagine it considering I really love the TV show overall. I enter every episode with intention of enjoying it and so far, it worked in 70 out of 70 episodes in my case.
Wimsey,
Either way, my concern is with Qyburn, a master of poisons. It would truly be a Scorpion then.
However you want to classify the weapon, it has a 50% hit rate, and they’ve had a lot of time to make a lot more of them.
Lord Parramandas,
As mentioned, I don’t put much stock into IMDB, but answered due to you using it as a reference point.
It becomes confusing when the 8.8 IMDB rating gets used as an argument as to the strength and solidity the episode carries with the majority, but at ensuing points the argument shifts to consider IMDB ratings fraudulent due to all the people spamming 1/10 ratings. That’s a bit having it both ways argument.
My guess remains a minority view the episode as 10/10 no flaws, another minority view the episode as 1/10 trash, and the majority view the episode as 7-9/10.
isildur,
I too think people should be free to criticize the show in any way they see fit, but I disagree with their criticisms and yours. The story is not only about the Targaryens, but about the Starks, Lannisters, and Greyjoys as well. That said, Jon and Danerys played a very big role in defeating the White Walkers, just as big as Arya’s. They’re the ones who chose to unite their forces and make a final stand at Winterfell. Without Danerys, the wights would have overrun Winterfell in a matter of seconds.
Finally. We now know what Bran was doing at the end. Helping Arya sneak in.
https://i.redd.it/kslke5z4h8v21.jpg
C’mon now, that’s funny.
orange,
I used it as a response to those Youtube comments when they make it sound like “everyone hates this episode”. No, the majority of fandom still love it otherwise, there wouldn’t be 68k 10/10 votes and 10k 9/10 votes on IMDB. If episode is polarizing, it can as well be one of the highest tier episodes for part of the fandom.
FOr example, the LOST finale is rated “only” 8.2 on IMDB and it’s known as one of the most polarizing finales in TV history. Now if you go to official LOST page on FB, you’ll see people trashing it all over, how they “wasted their life” on this show. But if you enter our LOST community LOST FANS UNITE! on FB (counting 13000 members), the episode is deemed as masterpiece of TV and it’s one of the most liked episodes there. Then you check the “8.2” rating and you see 10s and 9s, are by far the most numerous, only that there is again some inflation of 1/10 votes… which I again can’t take seriously as in my eyes, no one who is genuinely devoted to TV show would give such rating.
Che,
Well, in the novels, Jon did tell Arya the following:
“When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”
The White Walkers were frozen, correct? Made of Ice?
orange,
And 68k 10/10 vs 8k 1/10, I think it’s outright spelled the majority loved this episode.
orange,
“Fans (of television) are a combination of knowing exactly what they want from you and the story, not knowing what they want but willing to turn on you instantly if they don’t get it, and some weird combination of happy but disappointed or let down, but also unwilling to trade the experience for anything […] A consolation is that memory (and opinion) fades, and you’re going into the magical, mythical Hall of Fame no matter what.”
Possible things in store for Team Stark and Team Targaryen in episode 4:
I’m thinking identity reveal will definitely be the focus. Jon has to tell Sansa and Arya now, doesn’t he? How will they react? What does Jon feel about all of this? How will Daenerys handle the truth? How will everyone else find out? Have certain people already been suspecting something? Everyone saw Jon ride a dragon into battle after all.
This leads us straight to the various political issues at hand, especially Dany’s and Jon’s competing claim to the Iron Throne. Does Jon even want to contest with her? Will Sam, Sansa, Tyrion and Varys begin to scheme? I also expect Tyrion’s and Varys’s loyalties to be somewhat tested, the foreshadowing has been insane.
What are Dany’s expectations regarding the fealty of the fractions gathered at Winterfell? When he was king Jon may have pledged the North to her cause, but what about the Vale? And what about the Freefolk? Will she expect them to fight for her? And who currently holds power in the Riverlands? Is it Uncle Edmure? I also expect that Northern independence continues to be an issue that may come into play as bargaining chip later.
Then there are the military issues. What battle plan do Daenerys and Tyrion have for taking the Iron Throne? How high are the numbers of their overall losses? What would be the logistics for an attack on King’s Landing? Will Daenerys call on Daario and the Second Sons for reinforcement?
And of course there are various people who need to clarify their relationship status. How will the parentage reveal affect Jon and Dany’s personal relationship? How will Jaime and Brienne’s relationship unfold? And what about Gendry and Arya?
Other things that come to mind: Is Sam still in the Nights Watch or is he technically the new Lord Tarly? Does Team Targaryen know they have a Baratheon bastard in their midst? And where is Bronn with that crossbow?
All in all, this sounds enough Shakespearian to me.
Lord Parramandas,
People who complained (and still complain) about the ending of LOST never really understood that the show was all about the characters rather than the mystical aspect of the plot. I mean, the show (which in my mind is still the best show ever produced) had an incredibly large cast of protagonists (not just characters) and the producers never failed to give each character true development. Yes, the mystery part was tantalizing and it kept many of us trying to find meaning in every little detail but the show was ultimately a story of these people coming together and journeying/struggling through their existence arm in arm. The ending was a love letter to the characters I grew to love. Long live Jack Shephard!
I was only let down by the whole Arya debacle at the end. It felt hollywood, it felt cheesy, it felt unimaginative, it felt generic, and it felt like a betrayal. But overall i enjoyed the episode, 8.5/10 for me. However the hate this episode is getting is not just coming from book readers, its coming from so many casual fans as well, same with the darkness issue, and the makers of the show blaming viewers certainly isnt helping
I’m a little worried going forward, it’d be a shame to ruin such a perfect series in its ending, i have been able to distance the books from the show recently, and it makes me enjoy the show so much more, but besides the premiere, this season has been shaky at best, crossing my fingers they nail these last 3 episodes, i want this series to stand in the same category as Breaking Bad, The Wire, The Sopranos. A Badly written final 2 seasons is not going to do that
Okay, Kit, you’ve piqued my interest! I am one of the people who is glad the characterless zombies are over with and the human drama can take center stage.
I’d rate the last episode an 8/10 on spectacle alone. But it was incredibly exhausting. It blows my mind that people wanted more episodes of that.
Danny,
Yes, it’s true… and those who still insist they were dead all along. But to some lesser extent, you could say the same for this new GoT episode… people outright expected White Walkers will be the very final stage of the story, after the Iron THrone is already claimed. I understand contstructive criticism “I wish X was different… Y could have been handled better…” but to completely turn against the show just because story untangled differently than they expected or because a different character delivered a killing blow, that’s a no-go for me. I’m very much sure now WW were not meant to be the final stage of the show and even if I used to think differently, I would never turn against TV show but rather embrace the new story.
If a person who was “underwhelmed” rates this episode a 7 or 8, maybe 6, I understand. But when somebody rates it 1/10, I just cant’ take such rating seriously.
Che,
That’s NOT Vladimir Furdik’s Twitter account….it’s a fan page. It says so right at the top of the account.
As far as I know, he only has an official Instagram page:
https://www.instagram.com/vladimir_furdik_/
Also, D&D were on Kimmel and he asked if we’re done with the White Walkers.
Benioff said “Yeah, we’re not gonna answer that”.
I wouldn’t read too much into that. At this point they aren’t going to answer any questions involving plot. He could of asked if we would see Sir Pounce and would have gotten the same answer.
This argument doesn’t make any sense to me. What battle did they fight prior to Winterfell ? Fist of the First Men and Hardhome are massacres, not battles.
The three-eyed raven cave and wight hunt are not battles.
This was the first actual battle between the White Walkers and an army.
And it was the first we’ve seen of the White Walkers south of the Wall.
For it to also be the last we’ve seen of them south of the Wall is understandably underwhelming for some people.
For seven seasons we were building towards them invading Westeros. They finally breach the Wall and we only get one episode with them.
The “Long Night” was a few hours and a single confrontation. Winter did not devastate Westeros. The WW did not change the kingdom forever. They had no impact south of Winterfell.
Obviously a lot of people wanted to see an actual war for the dawn that would affect all of Westeros, not just one battle in the North.
Lord Parramandas,
Yes, but you got to take into account that Internet comment sections allows people to just be stupid by granting them anonymity. As you said, there are constructive ways to criticize and/or express disappointment. Those who trash the entirety of a show because they didn’t like one episode are plain idiots and/or trolls. No other way around it. Because even if you didn’t like where they took the story, for a show like GOT, you still need to appreciate the craft that it took to put together. Trolls abound though in every fandom. For example, before the Internet I never knew that certain percentage of the male population had such fragile psyche that the fictional empowerment of female characters would push them into such hysterics.
For the record, I have my reservations about the last episode and it doesn’t make my top 5 but it certainly was a very well crafted piece of filmmaking.
Lord Parramandas,
I’m been seeing tons of hate towards it and its IMDB rating keeps dropping. Go on GoT youtube videos 90% of the comments are hating it.
Actually, the average rating (8.97) is very good, higher than many episode with 100% score. There are some episode with 100% with 7-8.
So, critics that liked this episode really LOVED!
Wimsey,
Originally, ballistae had two torsion arms parallel to the ground, and scorpions had one torsion arm raised vertically (giving it the name as resembling a scorpion’s stinger).
Nick20,
Do you think they will make it to King’s Landing in the books? Do you think GRRM will have them as the final obstacle to be overcome? I say absolutely not to both. I get the criticism of only showing them once this season, but for the show, it made sense. GRRM can spend half a book with all of these characters in a battle and make it feel like more time had passed and that the AOTD had overrun more of Westeros, all while not having to spend any money to pay for these battles or time to film them.
Is there a chance HBO will fix the lighting issue of episode 3 for future airings and the DVD release? I know my perception of that episode would have been more positive if it was light properly.
Nick20,
To be fair, before Arya did Arya things, I felt that I was watching a massacre. Not a battle. Sure Team Winterfell did their best to fight for their lives but they were being annihilated. It was never a fair fight, not even with dragons. Destroying the NK, as Beric suggested, was the only way they had out of the situation. Were it not for Arya being successful, they would all have died.
But I do agree with your general criticism of the episode.
Are those African swallows or European swallows?
Nick20,
Hardhome was most certainly a battle. The wildlings and Night’s Watch put up a fight, didn’t they? Just because the end result was a massacre doesn’t mean it wasn’t a battle. Do you consider the Spoils of War a massacre and not a battle as well?
JamesL,
If you adjust the brightness on your tv, the viewing is much more enjoyable. It made a ton of difference for me on my second view. The DP said that lighting was a not a problem, so don’t expect them to change anything. I believe I changed the brightness from 50 to 65 and I was able to catch everything!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I don’t even know why people are saying that Martin will do better in the books. The White Walker storyline hasn’t even really kicked off yet and there is only two books left. There’s no way that Martin will be able to build them up as a threat and then dispense of them without it feeling rushed.
I’ve always thought that like with Tolkien, this is a story about magic leaving the world. That means by the end there will be an end to magic bloodlines, Dragons, wargs, ice demons/spiders and zombies of all types.
And it’s also a story about two houses in conflict over the right to rule – war of the roses GRRM says inspired him – so it’s absolutely about the Starks (York) and the Lannisters (Lancaster). If a Targ is ruling in the end, it’s because that’s how this war was resolved as well – by a hidden bloodline coming back. Doesn’t mean the other houses were irrelevant, that’s just how it worked out.
Further more, in LOTR, Tolkien has the scouring of the shire. GRRM has pointed to this in interviews as something that really impressed him about the work. After the heros win… and evil is defeated… then what? Unfortunately you still have some asshole that thinks s/he can dominate other people, even if the existential threat is done. Cersei = Saruman here.
Well then, I guess (those people) should watch The Long Night prequel or whatever they will call it if that is what they want. That it assumed to be covering the period that was the actual Long Night that lasted a generation and affected their entire world. What GoT did, and what is most likely the story within ASoIaF, was the living preventing another true Long Night and total decimation of Westeros and beyond. In their reality, if they were to fail at Westeros it would have only gotten incrementally more difficult over time as the aotd spread larger and wider.
I quite agree, there seems to be enough drama in store for Team Stark and Team Targaryen. I think the identity reveal will definitely be the focus of next episode. Jon has to tell Sansa and Arya now, doesn’t he? How will they react? What does Jon feel about all of this? How will Daenerys handle the truth? How will everyone else find out? Have certain people already been suspecting something? Everyone saw Jon ride a dragon into battle after all.
This leads us straight to the various political issues at hand, especially Dany’s and Jon’s competing claim to the Iron Throne. Does Jon even want to contest with her? Will Sam, Sansa, Tyrion and Varys begin to scheme? I also expect Tyrion’s and Varys’s loyalties to be somewhat tested, the foreshadowing has been insane.
What are Dany’s expectations regarding the fealty of the fractions gathered at Winterfell? When he was king Jon may have pledged the North to her cause, but what about the Vale? And what about the Freefolk? Will she expect them to fight for her? And who currently holds power in the Riverlands? Is it Uncle Edmure? I also expect that Northern independence continues to be an issue that may come into play as bargaining chip later.
Then there are the military issues. What battle plan do Daenerys and Tyrion have for taking the Iron Throne? How high are the numbers of their overall losses? What would be the logistics for an attack on King’s Landing? Will Daenerys call on Daario and the Second Sons for reinforcement?
And of course there are various people who need to clarify their relationship status. How will the parentage reveal affect Jon and Dany’s personal relationship? How will Jaime and Brienne’s relationship unfold? And what about Gendry and Arya?
Other things that come to mind: Is Sam still in the Nights Watch or is he technically the new Lord Tarly? Does Team Targaryen know they have a Baratheon bastard in their midst? And where is Bronn with that crossbow?
Danny,
I had to turn the brightness level up too, and it made a difference. But I also am having to watch on HBO Now this year, so it’s likely that there is more video compression than there is with cable/satellite, and way more than Blu-Ray. Granted, I’m watching on an 8 year old Plasma screen. But the only other time I could barely see anything was during the House Of Black And White scenes. ‘Blackwater’ and ‘Watchers On The Wall’ were fine.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
JSchmeh,
I believe the balance between polar opposites always exists, so when Arya killed the NK she may be the next in line to be the new persona of death via Night Queen to oppose the opposite being Bran 3ER… I could be wrong and totally complete ridiculous and the WW are done for good
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
It think it is because many are being influenced by the hate they are reading on the internet for the episode so it basically helps create more haters because it is fun to nerd rage. The worst is the hostility rather than merely criticism towards the writers.
Can we not disqualify people from being “true fans” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) just because they don’t have the same opinion ?
Yes, it’s the vocal minority that really disliked it that’s getting loud now. But how do you explain 78k 10 or 9-rating against 8k 1 star votings (which are the only reason for significant drop in ratings on IMDB as after episode aired, the ratings was way higher)? Certainly not that everybody hates the episode. I for example also know that the reaction videos I watched, those people all loved it. I know that all fellow admins from our LOST community who watch GoT also loved it. I know that most of my FB friends who watch GoT also loved it. So yes, the epsode generated the “I don’t like it” portion of the fandom, but it seems that those who enjoyed it still prevail.
Nick20,
I’m really not interested in splitting hairs between what constitutes a battle, and what constitutes a massacre, as some of the other comments have pointed out. What I am getting at is the Army of the Dead has been totally undefeated prior to this episode. Guess what? Defeating them means total annihilation of the army – they don’t retreat, and to paraphrase Jon, they are an enemy that doesn’t stop, tire, and they don’t have a General you can negotiate with.
To me, they served their purpose. They invaded Westeros, and were *this close* to wiping out arguably the greatest army the world had ever seen. I understand you wanted them to move further south and have another engagement with an opposing force, but looking at everything in retrospect, that’s not where the story is going., and the show and the series is better off for it. The human heart in conflict with itself is an infinitely more interesting story, as well as the overarching game of thrones.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Wanting more from the WW plot doesn’t mean multiple episodes of battles.
Exactly this.
Danny,
It doesn’t matter what the DP said. Clearly there was a problem otherwise there wouldn’t be so many complaints about it. The darker lighting was done on purpose for effect but it was a misguided decision and hopefully HBO corrects it.
Joseph Mobile,
Exactly. When I look at the overall scale now, after Army of the Dead breached the Wall, there were only two possible outcomes… total victory or total defeat. If they made it past Winterfell, it would pretty much mean the end of everything. The characters fought to prevent invasion.
Nick20,
If they weren’t paying attention during seasons 1-5, what would you call them? Why even watch the show if you’re not going to bother remembering the characters journeys? Idk seems pointless to me. But to each their own
isildur,
Where did you come up with the theory that the story is about Targaryens and not Starks? Where? And how? Jon, arguably the protagonist, is half Targaryen, half Stark. Jon is as much a STARK as he is a Targaryen. In fact, I would say his upbringing says he’s more Stark than Targaryen. Just like Theon was more a Stark than Greyjoy, despite not having an ounce of Stark blood in him. The Targaryens and the Starks are the most prominent, magic associated houses of the story. They are equal. The show is not focusing on Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, is it now? If they were, I would agree the show is about the Targs. As it is, the only official Targ with prominence is Daenerys, while the Starks have been playing the game (albeit reluctantly) much longer. Ned Stark is still a major force in the story for goodness sake, even though he got decapitated in Season 1/Book 1.
It’s when they got armor on… 😛
The Wolves of Winter,
Touche XD
I will still be avoiding those spoilery articles but what I dread is that I will be completely heartbroken if the characters who survived the horror of the Battle at Winterfell will be dying at the hands (or armies) of Cersei. And I also had a horrible thought – IF the show decides to carry out the “Valonqar” prophecy and IF this indeed will be Jaime — a death by strangulation seems to be a crime of passion to me. Then I thought -what could be the trigger. It would be horrible if Cersei kills Brienne, then of course, this would trigger Jaime and he ends up choking her. This is all speculation but I dread it. Also I worry about Bronn suddenly appearing at the end of Ep 4 to kill Tyrion/Jaime.
Also I still maintain that the tunnels beneath King’s Landing will provide an escape for any of the commonfolk Cersei may hold hostage in the city if it is under siege. In the Blackwater episode, Varys tells Tyrion that the Targaryens built the tunnels/city to withstand a siege … or to provide an escape, if necessary.
Dark Sister,
I don’t think anyone should underestimate Cersei… I remember how after S6 finale, everyone thought she’s toast as soon as Dany arrives. I don’t think anyone expected her to be the big threat of the final arc.
I agree. I also look forward to Ned Stark vanquishing Cersei, it’s his destiny as the hero.
Anyway, I feel like people forget that we’ve been through this before. If you read the comments among the fandom for Seasons 2, 3 and 4 you’d swear the show had rarely put a foot right. The comments here (and on WinterIsComing) were often very negative, same goes for other communities. Now that the narrative is that those were the great golden years of the show, that has been totally forgotten. Even some of the people hurling vitriol at the time have forgotten.
I wasn’t a big fan of this episode, but I remember feeling that way about other episodes I came around on. And I remember people saying “Worst Episode Ever” for Mhysa, or The Children, or Mother’s Mercy etc etc. I’ll be curious to see what people think when the dust has settled.
Wimsey,
I’ve always considered Taming of the Shrew, Much Ado About Nothing and Midsummer’s Night Dream to be entirely Shakespearian, or at least as much as anything else that the Bard produced.
“Find the biggest TV you can”… I suggest you find the biggest trash can you can find and throw all your expectations in it, cause its getting even more shitty. Read the comments under this you tube video (its just one of endless examples)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHOT_GwlNzQ. Although i did`nt watch it, because i cant hear this selfish morons praise themselves, i read the comments. People are furious about the bat shit they had to watch. Not even a single positive reaction. Dumb&dumber and seemingly a lot of thrones actors lack an emotion called shame. While they have only struggled, sometimes heavily, in the last 3 seasons, they now have destroyed the entire series, making it a bad joke of itself. And by the way – is watchers on the wall payed to be less critic on the show? If i read the stuff under the topics i get a feeling wotw is in a dissociated state of mind. What has been good must always be good, even if it is`nt. The show has become a not even mediocre pile of nonsense with only a few exceptions. After the untimely and mindless executed death of the dead the show is dead too, rianjonsoned.
Shakespeare would have a field day with this group of survivors. So many opportunities for miscommunications and betrayals.
A dragon queen who finds out that her lover is her nephew, oh and also that he died and was resurrected, but no one talks about that.
A young female assassin trysting with a royal bastard under the watchful eyes of the Onion Knight and the Hound (Their two dads lol)
The lady of Winterfell sending Royce out with tons of suspicious messages, and sowing doubt with the queen’s Hand, her “still technically?” husband who is also the brother of the other queen.
A brave female knight loved by a beautiful one-handed lion on a redemption arc and wanted by the crazy {but in a hot way} ginger leader of the Wildlings.
Two lovers who dream of freedom on a butterfly island, but are loyal to the dragon queen and are possibly doomed.
A 3ER, a spider and a crow/almost maester with agendas.
An old friend with a crossbow and a mission…
Oh and in KL
An evil, vicious queen with her mad scientist sidekick, her zombie guard and the filthy pirate with questionable ambitions and loyalties.
Anything could happen. 🙂
Ser Shiz of Renia,
The hated towards D&D is the worst aspect of this fandom. 99% of the people bashing them wouldn’t even know this story if they didn’t dedicate a huge portion of life to make this amazing show. Go ahead and criticize what you don’t like, I know I have, but the hatred towards them is awful.
Ser Shiz of Renia,
Are you sure you didn’t mistake this site for westeros org? Becuase it sounds like you just escaped from there.
I agree with this. I admire and respect them so much. When they started this project, they never imagined they would be the ones to finish the story. The pressure alone must be immense. I am not surprised one of them (can’t remember which) said after the final episode drops he is going to stay away from the internet. They could never please everyone and when they said the season was going to be divisive, I was thinking, ‘well of course it is’, but then after Sunday’s battle I truly understood what that meant when for the first time I was really unhappy about something that happened in this show. I could still never give them anything other than praise for what they have achieved in this show. It truly is the best television out there and they are trying their best. All these armchair warriors should try to tie together all the loose strands in George’s books after book 5 and see how well they do. I can guarantee they’d be a lot worse or just inappropriate for TV.
I don´´t hate them, i find their writing ect. has become awful. They pretend to be so creative and in reality they f….d up the story in general.
Ser Shiz of Renia,
You’re right to have that opinion, but you are in the vast minority. Youtube is hardly a concrete way to ascertain the majority’s opinion. Commenters on YouTube complain about everything. You’ll see next week when the viewership numbers are revealed. I, personally, loved the episode. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. I’m not sure what you were expecting, but don’t blame D&D because they didn’t meet your expectations. There is a reason they are running the show and you are not.
Also, calling them dumb and dumber was inappropriate and it makes the difference between constructive criticism and a rant. If you want people to take you seriously, I suggest you be more respectful.
My mistake!! I saw it on the Twitter recap article and mentioned in the comments on some pages, but I should have checked the source!
Phew!
They didn’t screw up the story, they saved it from oblivion.
I second that. The feeling of superiority over the creators is something I utterly can’t stand. Not liking the episode, fine. But acting like you own the show and the writers are your servants… that’s a big NO in my book. If anything, any TV show or movie is a privilege for people to watch.
I´m sorry if you feel offended. D&D are the ones who are disrespectful to the dedicated fandom and the story in the first place.
My problems with this episode are:
– Melisandre didn’t really get the redemption her character deserved. I was expecting a huge self-sacrifice by her, some selfless act that would make a real difference, a real contribution to the victory, at least that’s what she announced to both Jon (“you know I can help you win that war”) and to Varys (“I have to die in this strange country”). Yet, her contribution didn’t really help (in the end, none of her actions made any real difference), and then her death felt even more meaningless (she simply decides to die, she didn’t really *have* to die as she said she would).
Mediumsizedfolk,
Welcome to the forum 😎
Although I’m not sure I agree with you on Mel.. she actually had a key role (though subtle) in defeating the AOTD.
Firstly, she lit the trenches which kept the dead at bay for several minutes. Not a long time, but it gave the others a chance to get into position, and to contribute in their own way.
More importantly, she is the one who set Arya on her path. She planted the seed in Arya’s mind which directly led to mankind being saved. That’s pretty significant.
Then ultimately, she went off to die, knowing she had played her part in the end.
Lord Parramandas,
Most definitely agree! I think the reason Cersei has survived this long is because her opponents constantly underestimate the lengths she would go to in order to keep power. That’s why I still fear for the survivors of “The Long Night.”
Ser Shiz of Renia,
I never know what to make of people like you. There’s disappointment and eloquent criticism and then there’s what you do – which is just like The Hound would say: whinging.
This is the only site i visit. And very often too, even if i rarely comment or post anything.
Since when have Youtube comments been anything but the most toxic place on the internet outside of 4chan? It’s a completely shit way to judge anything.
Ser Shiz of Renia,
Considering that awful, disrespectful and hateful stuff you wrote above, I’m glad you rarely comment as comments like yours are the worst that can happen to any fandom.
Ser Shiz of Renia,
Without them, there would be no show. Do you even have a tiny understanding of what it is like to produce a show like this? Any idea at all about the life you have to give up to work on this? You probably don’t, it is easy to sit your butt on a chair, punch a button on the remote and watch and then feel offended because your expectations were not met. All the while, taking for granted how much D&D have sacrificed to get this monster produced.
Ser Shiz of Renia,
sound like you have personal issues. calm down
Ser Shiz of Renia,
As George RR Martin himself said, “Art is not a democracy.” If you don’t like it and are feeling disrespected, don’t watch.
Could it be i dared to touch some idols you put on a skyhigh throne? And my “rant” was not meant to be eloquent, just my opinion. I did not know it is the nice comments only corner of this board.
Ser Shiz of Renia,
Blame GRRM. He’s going to have the AOTD defeated at least as early as mid-way through the final book too. Oh, but it will be in the Riverlands possibly instead of at Winterfell. Big deal. What or who of significance is between Winterfell and the Riverlands in the show?
The White Walkers are not complex. They’re not even characters. They were a plot device. Nothing more. They were never the heart of this story.
Huh? She’s the one who set Arya in motion and saved the world at the end there! She set the ring fire that gave them all a respite! If anything she punched far above her weight class
That she decided to die is also just speculation, she took the necklace off before to go to sleep and didn’t die. Her lifeforce was spent it seems
Ryan,
I think what I found myself most disappointed with were the horrible battle strategies employed by the living.
Her necklace doesn’t only change her appearance but also “makes” her young. When she took it off in S6 premiere, she could barely walk afterwards (and it’s likely she didn’t need to sleep when she had it on… at least if I remember some hints in the novels how nobody ever saw her sleep). I do believe she was unable to die as long as she still had a purpose and as she fulfilled it at the end of this battle, she was finally “allowed” to die.
Well, i don´t want to get in an endless fight with words, but your comment was personal too. Like Varys said to Kinvara: “The fanatic is alway right”. Your´ such a righteous person.
Mediumsizedfolk,
Who said that wasn’t part of the lords plan. There’s one condition that needed to be made to kill the night king. He needed to show himself to bran. For that to happen another condition needed to be made. The night king needed to feel safe. He needed a sense that the enemy of his (our heroes) are not a treat. Killing the dothraki made that possible. Also the fire was just good enough to hold for our heroes to escape to safety. Sandor etc which made it possible for mellisandre to send Arya towards the nk.
Wimsey,
True, the climate debate is already as old as the 70s and 80s.
orange,
The big haters are loud (and onnoying), but the same for the ones that liked it, they are also the ones who express their opinion loudly. (but for me they’re not annoying). But I think most just liked the episode, but don’t put it in the top half of the show. But I will change my opinion once I watched the episode a second time this weekend. Maybe I’m more disappointed but probably more positive about the episode. Personally I would rate this episode at least in the top half.
I don’t know what people are really trying to achieve by going to fan sites and simply vomiting up their own shitty opinions in a manner that’s presented like, “f*ck that, f*ck them, they’re garbage.” It’s waving a big sign around that says, “I’m a complete moronic tool that cries every time I don’t get what I want!” Since there are so many of those people in society now with the social media outlet we can’t avoid them as easily anymore. It’s pathetic.
On the other hand we can read comments from people that have some displeasure and disappointments in certain aspects that are able to present them in a civil way, often times including things that they did actually enjoy. Just one example I’ve noticed during the week here is Che. She’s written several posts regarding things of disappointment, but with thorough explanation and including good things as well. People may not totally agree with everything, which is fine, but it’s done in a way to entice discussion, not in a way that only angers everyone. You know… because not everybody thinks the show is total garbage.
Ser Shiz of Renia,
Yawn!
Then bow down for ever to the gods you have chosen. D&D will honor you for sure.
isildur,
No the story is about the starks. The last book was first named time for Wolves until its changed to dream of springs. And my guess is if grrm made 3 books instead of 2 (which he think is possible) the Last one will be probably time for Wolves.
Lord Parramandas,
You’re right of course at the end of the day it matters if yourself like it. But if we’re talking about objectively if the episode was good or not, what we think ourselves doesn’t matter. How more people vote the more the quality will show. I liked many bad sitcomes but objectively speaking. Most aren’t that good quality speaking. But I like them non the less.
cosca,
That’s exactly what I said. You’ve copied the wrong text. Or perhaps I posted my comment in the wrong place. 🙈
Seriously? Did you now come to troll or what?
Aegon the IceDragon,
Isn’t David nutter the one episode 4 is directing. Is he speaking about his own episode or not?
Lord Parramandas,
True there, my least favorite I will probably rate at least an 8. But the same about the 1s can be said for people rating episodes a 10 even when they’re not that great. I saw episodes of bad sitcoms that were rated by many a 10. Even when there wasn’t a single joke in it that was funny.
But I always am intrigued with episode ratings on imdb if I can find myself in that rating.
Actually, for me rating it 10 or rating it 1 is not the same thing at all. In my eyes, you can never be too positive about a TV show or a movie because they exist with main purpose to entertain people. That’s why I increasingly focus on positive aspects in my reviews even if it’s not my top rated episode. But voting it 1/10 is hating… no better word for it. Something that is completely against why TV shows and movies are made in first place in my head. So no, it’s not the same thing at all for me.
Apollo,
was trying to quote the other guy aarrgh
Here’s hoping that Varys/Qyburn’s Little Birds make an appearance in episode four, though I suspect they won’t show up until five, and I’m willing to bet that they’re still loyal to Varys. If not, Arya can take them out in less time than it takes to bite into a tart.
Kevin1989,
I disagree. I think giving an episode a 10 is much more understandable than giving an episode a 1. People who are watching the show normally are fans of the show. If you’re giving episodes a 1, then that must mean they didn’t like anything about the episode. I have to ask why they are watching something they clearly hate.
Lord Parramandas,
Lost final got to much shit about people not remembering correctly things. I remember people not knowing Locke was dead in season 6 and they though he was in that (when the actor played the man in black).
For me the last episode got also lots of shit because they felt the last season was not as good. And the final didn’t deserve that low rating because of that. It should have rated by the content of that episode. Which was beautiful ending to the characters.
Also many rated it a 1 because everyone was dead since the beginning. Which also was a wrong assentment and it made clear some didn’t understand it. Those I will never take seriously.
Same with the long night. The ones giving a 1 with all their bullshit opinions I won’t take serieus. The ones rating it a 7 till 9 with arguments that made sense I will take seriously.
Btw how many times did you watch lost? I think around 9 times. I think I will do a rerun this year.
Exactly! Not the same thing at all.
Wimsey,
Yes. They have been telling us for over 40 years that in 10 years we are doomed.
I watch it every 3 years. I originally watched it in 2011 (took about half a year) and then I repeated the journey in 2013/2014 and 2016/2017. Now my next rewatch will start in November this year. Since 2016, I’m also one of the admins in an active LOST group on FB so I have daily encounter with it.
Part of it I think is being able to at least consider the other side without just attacking them without thinking about where they are coming from. To me it’s a given that the other person is probably just as passionate about the characters and stories as I am (especially here on WotW). And that’s pretty passionate! The feelings are real because most folks here are very invested. I think that’s where I start. Once I realize the other person has genuine feelings and knowledge about the characters and stories, it’s really hard for me to attack them. I do enjoy a debate, especially if I think my detective work may have spotted something they missed. Most people on WotW do talk about the positives as well as any critiques they may have. I stay away from most other places nowadays…
I have to join in with those up-thread who said that the episode was a bit underwhelming or disappointing. At least it was to me.
There were some very good moments for sure. I loved Arya killing the NK. My (adult) daughter and I cheered and high fived. Of course, Arya with the Valyarian Steel dagger taking out the Night King has been one of my favorite theories since the episode where Bran gave it to her. I do wish they had dropped in a few more ties of her and the prophecies through the episodes that they’ve done since they decided to go with her.
I also liked Melissandre lighting up the Arakhs, and her firing up the trenches. I thought that was a good use for her. On the other hand, if they were actually going to send the Dothraki out with just plain steel Arakhs before she showed up, that doesn’t make any sense to me. (Maybe they had somehow rubbed or imbued them with some dragon glass?). I would have also liked to have seen at least a few Dothraki/wight encounters before they showed the lights fading (which was a pretty cool and effective visual).
I don’t mind the wights walking through the library. I think the NK may have had sufficient control of individual wights that he could send them on search missions for humans inside the castle. (To be honest, right when they first showed them in the library, I thought for a second he had them looking for a particular book that had some importance to him or his cause) 🙂
I don’t know – overall the episode just felt a bit sloppy in places. I still liked it ok, but it is not among my favorites, or even my favorite battle episodes. I’ve always loved both the books and the show, and I still do. But every once in a while an episode falls a bit flat for me and this one did in some ways.
Engr Sani,
I definitely think that’s a large part of it yes. People overthinking things for nearly a decade and expecting outlandish events and ideas to come to fruition (Bran = NK? Give me a break).
Tron79,
That being said…I have seen some comments here that aren’t like the usual WotW comments that others have commented about… I honestly skipped most of them the first time through the posts, because it didn’t sound interesting enough to keep reading them since it was all so negative without much else.
Danny,
Exactly and the final wasn’t the place to answer those mysteries, that should have done before the final. So I can understand people were a little bit dissapointed by the last season, but the final itself was perfect. Those words of Christian always stayed with me:
Christian: Well, this is a place that you… that you all made together so that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time that you spent with these people. That’s why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone Jack. You needed all of them, and they needed you.
Jack: For what?
Christian: To remember. And to… let go.
I watched a lot of shows and a lot of interviews with writers. most of the times when they answer this there’s a plot twist coming with it. (maybe D&D are that 1 out of 10).
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I’m with you, I think in the books they will reach the trident, but only because I think the timeline is a bit different. I think in the books Dany will not be present with the battle of the dawn and is in fact present in KL at the moment. I think she will take KL first in the book. And I think she will go north mot because of Jon convincing her but because of visions and prophecy’s which she got in the books a lot. And I think Dany will go north on her own account (Or maybe Sam will be in KL then in point her to that direction). And then it will clash in the trident, in which all will be revealed about Jon, the WW etc.
But for a book it’s much easier to do it that way, a book can easily skip months on one page which GRRM did multiple times with days, I remember a Arya chapter of 5 pages which had 2 weeks or something in it. with some days being 2 sentences. For a show things like the love of Dany and Jon need to be more fleshed out on screen.
And to think of it, I found it somewhat beautiful in a bittersweet way (I think people really missed this word so I’m going to use it). It was the most important battle for the survival of the south but to quote Varys: There are many who know that without you this kingdom (city) faced certain defeat. The people (king) won’t give you any honors, the histories won’t mention you, but we will not forget.
the treat remains a myth which as before only the north remembers and believe.
JamesL,
The problem wasn’t HBO but the cable companies. So I say yes. So I think you need to ask your money back from your cable company.
Young Dragon,
I think he meant more like, not a battle for Westeros. Which he is half right. the wall meant Westeros is not safe, so after that the real war begins. I understand what you mean but also what nick20 means.
Young Dragon,
Depends, now every storyline is scattered over around 5 a 6 chapters per book. Every character a different storyline. If as in the show the characters came together, the war with the WW could cover more than 6 chapters in that book. But I will judge the book vs series debate once both are done.
hahahaha XD
Do you know what it is with Cersei. Tyrion stated: You’re not half as clever as you think you are.
But the further we are in the story, and especially started with the whole Margery part. She can act as if she is not as smart as she thinks she is. People underestimate her because of that. And after the high sparrow, she upped her game. And after her kids died, that part of her constantly worry about them made it possible she could up her game even further.
And she has Qyburn which is also like her ruthless and smart. Maybe herself will not defeat Dany, but with the help of Qyburn with his thoughts she will.
RG,
This is the best character summary. You’re right, Shakespeare would love this group.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
In Axechucker’s Twitter recap (part 3, I think), he included an interesting tweet that said in the books the game of thrones is a distraction from the WW, but in the TV series the WW is a distraction from the game of thrones.
My guess is in the books GRRM will address the FAegon/Jon/Dany/Cersei/Euron/Iron Throne plot first, then the WW/Bran/final battle. The show just reversed the events.
And in both versions, my guess is Euron will probably do something to make things worse.
JamesL,
Was also with the writers of Lost. Carlton cuse could shake it of himself, Damon Lindelof had to go into psychiatric help for the bashing he got. It’s disgusting how some can react.
Same here, I admit there were some minor faults in the long night, but people forgot one thing.
Season 1 was written by grrm, and they had 3 years of writing it. They could have lots of time for it.
Season 2 till 5: Not 3 years something like 2 months if i remember but still the books were there.
Season 6 till now and especially now. No books, only 6 weeks for the whole season to write. That is not that the books are better written, it’s just time constrains. Even the brilliant GRRM (yes he is), takes years to write one book. And D&D need to deliver in 6 weeks all the scripts and after that no rewriting scenes because something needs to be better, because there are timeframes for them.
Lot’s of shows take 3 years to write for 1 season, to show them their brilliance (Sherlock, True Detective and more), D&D deliver every year.
Take it this way, if GRRM would get a deadline like D&D got from HBO. Do you think the books would still be up to the same standards? Even when the long night had his mistakes, hell I expected more, but people need to understand the high pressure D&D are on, there’s a reason why they don’t want to do the prequels (Which I think HBO would have wanted, it work for better call saul to have the same writers)
King in the North East,
The wiriting of the séries is TRASH since season 5. DD are jokes as writers. The books always Will be Miles and Miles better, everyone now Jas woke up How bad the wiriting is since the books stoped. Im pretty sure If Martin ever finish the books HBO Will remake the séries with better writers and loyal to the books that are much better, WoW Will realese for sure but AoW im not sure at ALL.
Lol,
proof please
Reek,
and why are you still watching then?
XDXDXD brrr scary place, I rather face the NK myself then ever return to that place.
Danny,
Well said, they gave up lots of moments with their families which they rather would have been part of. They worked 51 weeks a year, for years. Many weeks 7 days.
You’re right there, but I meant more, you have people complaining about everything, even disliking the good parts. That’s the same as liking the bad parts. But still a 10 is understandable if you say that bad part would make it for me a 9,8 and that’s a 10.
Lord Parramandas,
Have fun then 😀 But remember the numbers are bad 😉
Lol,
– 2 points, writing a season in 6 weeks with the HBO on your back that it needs to be done, against publisher who will not mind if it takes a decade or 2 to finish the next book.
– It’s GRRM story, so logically he is the one knowing the most about it. So of course GRRM is better with the story, because he knows all about it, and D&D needs to read GRRM mind what he intended between the bullet points he gave.
And even then some things were done better in the show. Look at season 1 that scene between Robert and Cersei, D&D wrote that, and it was one of the best written parts of the saga.
Lol,
I take season 5 any time over books 4 and 5 and season 6 is my favorite season. Please do everyone a favor and go trash the show somewhere else than here. Or better… when next episode airs, do not watch it like you should have done long ao.
Can this really be true at all? I find that very hard to believe.
Sure, GRRM’s analogy of WWs and climate change and the idea that humans are too involved with their own petty crab that they forget to keep sight of the big picture has been thought of as the point of this story for a long time now. So for the issue of “climate change” to be resolved now (and dare I say, quite easily) and basically to not have any major repercussions for those who didn’t help fight, seems quite odd. What’s the point then? Some people get it and help and are shat upon afterwards and then it all starts anew?
kevin1989,
It’s funny because I remain miffed at the lack of resolution to many of the mythological questions “Lost” raised but never answered, or to some of the given answers. But I thought “The Long Night” was largely fine.
And Lost, followed by GoT, are my two all-time favorite dramas.
Maybe do a spelling and gramar check before you call someone else a joke and their writing trash.
Thanks!
JSchmeh,
Man do I love a good burn!
Time is a flat circle.
I know it was snarky, and normally I wouldn’t do it, but I am so tired of people making personal attacks on the writers and actors. It is fine to not like the show or think it was bad, but if people are going to insult these professionals, their game better be on point.
JSchmeh,
Here, here. I can raise a glass to that. It’s harder than it seems. And it’s so easy to be negative unfortunately.
First Post here, and I agree with a lot of people, both those that liked and disliked the last episode. I fall into the former camp. I really liked it. As someone who camped as a child away from the city, sitting around a campfire at night, I am aware of how dark it can get. We were never supposed to see everything crystal clear. That was the whole point. Just as you are not going to see an army approaching you crystal clear if you are camping in the middle of nowhere at night.
But a few things did bother me. Hardly anyone has recognized Alys Karstark. She was with Theon defending Bran. It was highly disrespectful to dispose of her offscreen. At least Ned Umber got a proper farwell, even though it was chilling.
Then there’s the fact that Arya completely ignored Theon upon his return. There was his dead body she must have passed before killing the Night King. Yet she showed no recognition of that fact. To me, this was a major failure in writing.
I was okay with Arya killing the Night King. Neither Jon nor Dany deserved it. The Night King pulled a Ramsey, screamed LOOK SQUIRREL! and lo and behold they stupidly fell for it, abandoning their posts on the hill watching out for Bran. The blizzard conditions only started after Jon went after the White Walkers along the tree line. Nothing happened while the dragons were frying the charging wights. Jon might be a fantastic fighter with that sword, but he is a piss poor military commander.
As for where the show goes from here, there’s a lot left. There’s still a host of Red Priestesses that have been rallying Essos to Dany’s cause since Season 5. The Iron Bank would most likely prefer Dany not end up on the Iron Throne. I suspect we’ll see more of the Faceless Men. Whether called upon or not, the Second Sons might make an appearance.
Then there’s the Glovers to deal with. I suspect Robett Glover will be executed for abandoning the call. How will the other Northerners react? Will House Glover retain Deepwood Motte? Would they turn against the Starks like the Karstarks after Robb executed Rickard Karstark? Maybe they already have and Cercei knows it.
What about the Vale and the Riverlands? Will we see Robin Arryn and Edmure Tully again? Where will their loyalties be?
There’s a lot left, and many possibilities. One thing for sure though, Bran might be more overpowered than the dragons if he participates at all. He can literally warg into people and make them do things. He’s also the ultimate scout.
The first two episodes certainly laid the groundwork for this well enough, albeit without the occasional comic angle. Of course, supposedly there was a lot more humor in those plays if you were intimately familiar with Elisabethean society. That would not be me.
I remember there being leaks about Winterfell burning to the ground including photos. Was that just the fire used during the battle for Winterfell creating the illusion the Winterfell was burning down?
The Wolves of Winter,
Didn’t GRRM say that the story wasn’t nihilistic? Or did I imagine that?
I liked how Lost did things, myself. The problem it had as a series was the “Feast for Crows” seasons that were sort of tacked into the middle because the network would not let the showrunners start the final act.
However, I also was not invested in “my” ending being “the” ending: and given that a lot of fans are, and given that there are dozens and dozens (and often even hundreds and hundreds) of very different types of endings that different fans want, any ending is guaranteed to piss off a lot of them.
Lol,
I couldn’t disagree more. For me, it’s the books that have gone downhill, not the show. The show is still going strong, and the first 3 episodes of season 8 have been spectacular. If they stick the landing, and I have no reason to believe they won’t, season 8 may wind up being my favorite season.
I said this before, but with only two books left, I don’t see how Martin is going to do the White Walker storyline justice. They’re still a footnote in the books and have rarely been seen. D&D handled the White Walkers a lot better, imo.
kevin1989,
If the problem was cable companies then why is the footage on youtube also dark? And why wasn’t this an issue in previous episodes?
The irony is not lost on me, when reading the typos and grammatical errors in your writing.
JSchmeh,
Oops.. you beat me to it!🙈😂
On one hand I understand the critical comments about how quickly NK went down….this has been hyped as the real battle for so long it’s surprising to see it resolved in a single episode (even though it was one hell of an epic battle). But in those moments I have to remind myself that an extended 1-1 fight with him would be un-winable as the NK literally has thousands of fighters to come in and take care of the opposition during that fight (i.e. a single fighter will never truly be able to engage in 1-1 combat with the NK, he is constantly surrounded by reinforcements). A quick, unexpected way of offing him really is the only possible way of a successful win….an attack he doesn’t see coming and that will immediately remove all of his undead support. Also, I’m holding back on being too critical about any of how the story is playing out until the entire story has been told. We don’t know what’s in store. A lot of things can happen. This part of the story might not be over in the way one might expect. Three episodes to just finish off Cersei (or attempt to finish off Cersei) seems like an extremely excessive amount of air time for only that to go down.
Lord Parramandas,
I thought, when she took of her necklace the first time (we saw it), she was not going to sleep, but to die. But she wasn’t allowed to die that moment, she was told (by tLoL?) to put the necklace on again and to continue, because ’til dato her job hadn’t ended.
Vally,
I don’t know, just think it’s a great line from True Detective.
But then why is there a circle in Hodors story?
JamesL,
You mean official footage of the gameofthrones channel or footage of fans that recordered their experience of the episode?
I watched the official videos of hbo and they didn’t have any lighting probs. So which video do you mean?
kevin1989,
After reading most of the comments, I still don’t get it. How can we make so much assessments based on kneejerk reaction.
1. the episode being too dark is on the distributors, The Visuals were next to none, and even more impressive for TV series.
2. don’t see why the issue with Arya killing the NK
3. all the stuff about the WW and NK. I think we should wait and see how the remaining episodes play out. I still believe there is more to the WW than what we got and we haven’t seen the last of them. but if we have, it was 84mins of action.
Most persons I know enjoy The Long Night and I think it should get 9.4/9.5.
to rate it as the worst ever, don’t get it.
I also think Varys will betray Dany upon learning Jon is Aegon Targaryen, and true to her word, she will have her dragons fry him to a crisp, as it was forshadowed last season when she warned him what would happen if he betrayed her.
Apollo,
I dont Care about my english , its not my language. You understand everything i Said. Thats It
I loved the episode. But I can see why a lot of people didn’t. There were a number of decisions made by D&D that could set off one person or another.
• A lot of people simply believed Jon Snow was the ultimate hero of the show, and the Night King was his, and his only, to defeat. These people wouldn’t have accepted any other outcome. (I can understand this POV, but this didn’t bother me).
• Some people don’t like that the show has strong women in big roles, and took offense to *Arya* being the hero of the day. (Strongly disagree, I loved this.)
• Some people expected the battle against the NK to last more than one episode. Yes, there had been battles beyond the wall, but a) after seasons of build-up the wall fell in like 5 minutes and b) the battle lasted one night. That seems off to a lot of people. (I agree but will wait to see what happens next.)
• Some people feel like it was unrealistic that so few of the supporting cast members died. They were sure that Brienne, Grayworm, Gendry, Tormund, Gilly, Varys etc. were done for. (I agree, but I’m happy Tormund survived!)
• Some people thought the shooting was too dark and hard to see/feel. (I disagree, but I watched in a dark room on a great tv)
• Some people were disappointed that Tyrion and Sansa spent the episode ruminating about their marriage, and that even the dead people climbing out of the crypts didn’t seem to do much damage. (I somewhat agree but think these are minor)
• Some people thought Bran might play an interesting role in the battle, not just hang out under a tree. (I agree)
If you take all of these separately and together, you have a lot of people who have some reason to complain on the Internet. And while I agree with a number of these points, I still loved it. The intensity had me on the edge of my sofa, the film making was beautiful, the music haunting, and my emotions were all over the place. I think it was the most masterful episode of any TV show ever.
I’m waiting to see how the rest of the story plays out before getting too PO’ed over Episode 3 and just appreciating it for what it was.
Dose any one remeber that the golden company can turn on Cerise and fight for Danny cuz of loyalty to house Targeryan via a Backfire who founded the Golden company ( also Targeryan basterds are Blackfires.) And their ture loyalty is to the Targeryans ,no matter how much they got paid .
Cryptkeeper,
i think Euron is going to do something too
Lord Parramandas,
And thats YOUR opinion, Nice,i respect you, you should do the same with Mine, i prefer books 4 and 5 over EVERY season of the show, even the good ones like 1-4 cause even them have great plot-holes And some scenes dont do justice for book scenes for me.And For me the wiriting is way better and way more solid and the plots way better. But thats MY opinion of course, and you have yours, thats How life Works.
Yes, after watching this recent episode, it’s very likely a possibility. She lost faith at that point and maybe she thought it was time for her to die as Stannis was dead and then even Jon (who she saw fighting at Winterfell). In any way, the necklace must have given her life force in some way.
Lol,
I’ll NEVER respect an opinion of a hate-watcher! Ever!
This is the best GOT place in the web to discuss the episodes. A lot of good people with respectful comments. It’sad to see some trolls trying to ruin the place with Youtube-like rage and hate.
Agree. That scene between Robert and Cersei has always been one of my favorites. Outstanding. There are many, many other scenes D&D wrote that were amazing as well. To call their writing “trash” is beyond preposterous.
onedon,
Good point especially nr 3.
Lord Parramandas,
Never say never dude.
(sorry couldn’t resist it with a fellow lost fan)
I think the point is that time and again, people have been flawed and made mistakes. This show is unforgiving of mistakes. Jon made a mistake in the Battle of the Bastards, and would of died if not for Sansa and the Knights of the Vale. Going back to Season 1, Ned Stark made a mistake in trusting Cersei and Littlefinger to be honorable. Stannis’s fatal mistake was burning Shireen to death, which caused a bulk of his forces to abandon him, but still he stubbornly tried to attack the Boltons anyway.
What this episode showed is the Night King was also flawed. His smirk to Dany showed his evil human side. He was overconfident, even cocky. And why not? How many centuries did he exist without one threat against him? He avoided Jon simply by raising his arms and reviving the dead to surround Jon.
But he was a little too much like the Terminator meets Lord Voldemort with the only I can kill Bran Stark the last Three-Eyed Raven. How long did he just stand there gloating over Bran before finally reaching for his sword? His hubris was his undoing. It was his flaw. And like other occasions in this show, it was the unraveling of the Army of the Dead.
In this case, I can firmly say “Never!”. People get banned from our LOST community if they would exhibit a hate-attitude like that. Constructive criticism is one thing, disrespect and hatefulness towards its makers is another.
Lord Parramandas,
A HATE what?? haha If you cant respect opinions even for a SHOW, i have Sad news for you….🙃
Hi. First time commenting here, although I have been reading for a while. I enjoy the many different points of view.
I will say that on first watch ‘The Long Night’ was a good watch but after I went to bed and woke up again I just felt the wind had gone from my sails. (I’m in the UK where it airs at 2am.) For me, it was a mixture of things as I found the NK being defeated in one episode a downer but I had realised as soon as Mel said she would be dead by morning that this would happen and this was confirmed by the characters being overwhelmed.
I am a Jon fan and what I find a bit annoying was that he (to me) felt sidelined for much of the battle that I felt was a battle he should be heavily involved in. On rewatch it became very obvious that this was Arya’s battle which puzzled me as she never had anything to do with the NK. Death, yes, but not this version. When I saw D & D say that they basically decided that she would do it before season 7 that really annoyed me as it was just for shock value. While I’m not against Arya (I love her character) finishing the NK, I just would have liked Jon to have a bigger moment. By that I mean something like killing Viserion, after much dodging, but still failing to get to the Godswood in time, hence Arya.
I also would have liked at least one WW to go. Just an example, Brienne fights the WW while Pod and Jamie are overwhelmed with wights. She gets the blow and Jamie and Pod now have far fewer wights to fight etc. I am also aware of how much work went into the battle and that not everything could happen.
I also hope that they didn’t give Jon a big moment here because he may yet get one in the remaining three episodes and two moments would be too much for any character, I feel. I believe Dany, Cersei, Tyrion and Jamie will get their ‘moments’ as well, as the characters deserve it. I suspect Arya will now not get the chance to kill Cersei as that would be too much, in my opinion. I suppose I’m still struggling to see what the point of Jon is anymore.
I didn’t hate the episode and would give it about 8/10. My fave episode is still Winds of Winter by a mile.
Because that’s the name of the weapon. A scorpion is a Roman era weapon, that’s kind of a giant crossbow
This is basically what Euron told Yara, that he’d just go somewhere else. He’s already done what he said he’d do first. He’s less reliable than Robett Glover.
That is a very valid opinion and there is nothing wrong with it. The problem I had and I think other people have, is that you called the writers jokes and their writing trash.
I’m missing episode 5. First episode I won’t see as it airs since I started watching.
Not only that, but I won’t be able to see it until the Friday after it comes out (I’ll be out backpacking on the Appalachian Trail). It’s going to be torture knowing that’s out and I can’t watch it. And on the trip home I have to avoid the internet completely so I won’t get spoiled. Send help!
Mediumsizedfolk,
I completely agree. While the episode on its face was spectacular, in the context of the multiple character arcs over 7+ seasons, it fell flat.
I know everyone wants to go back to season three with the Melisandre/Arya prophecy, but D&D ruined that by stating they didn’t decide for her to kill the NK until just a few years ago.
D&D also made it clear they wanted to get the show over with in about 80 episodes. What they should have done was either make season 8 all about fighting the NK, showing multiple battles or the AotD rolling through various houses on their way south, and then saved season 9 all about the endgame of the Iron Throne, or done the opposite.
It really has been rushed narratively, at the expense of spectacle.
JSchmeh,
Well i trully apologize If i offended someone, or looked like i was Just wanted to be a hater.
But i dont like DD wiriting at all, the way i Said It its the way i Fell ☹️
But i dont hate them, they show me the books that i love so much, they did 4 Seasons that i like. I was Just being honest How i trully Fell. But… Sorry AGAIN If was to much.
And Sorry for my english.
Ghostgirl,
Agree 100%. They really rushed things in order to finish the show in season 8.
Cryptkeeper,
D&D wrote Jon and Dany out of the episode. Jon isnt a good commander because they couldnt sllow him to succeed in order to give Arya the kill. They had to make Rhaegal disappear, and then have Drogon stupidly get swarmed and say “sorry Mom you’re on your own” simply to clear the way for Arya.
I love Arya, but the writing was orchestrated to castrate every character so she could get the big moment.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
There is absolutely no way they would have got all the cast back for another season. Natalie Dormer was desperate to leave when she did, and I’m sure many of the current cast are the same.
Of course the fact that people find it rushed shows that there is no way George will finish the series in seven books. I mean you only have to look at where the characters are at the end of Dance to realise that is is simply impossible for him to finish in seven books unless he rushes things even more than the show (due to the many other subplots).
Whah! What’s going on here?!
Whinging, desrespectful speech and trolling and hating – no time to wait and see, no time to read and listen. Where do all the nitpickers come from so suddenly?
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
Thanks. I did feel it was rushed. I thought it was a great spectacle (especially the beginning creating tension) but the logic didn’t work. I know Jon took Viserion down with Rhaegal but I would have liked Dany to do it and see her anguish at having to attack her own child etc. As you said, it all seemed geared to nobody else getting there so Arya could. (I’m also probably at fault for imagining so many different scenarios that I felt let down when the end came.) I also though Vladimir Furdik was a stuntman, but he didn’t do any stunts?
Anyway, the Shakespearen twist has got me thinking all sorts but I think I need to tell my brain to shut up!
No she didnt lol.
She began water dancing lessons in season 1, but she didn’t get very far before the shit hit the fan. She was very very much a beginner still with experience holding a stick essentially.
She gained no real fighting training until she went to Braavo in what, season 5? And all we really saw was her with a staff and blind fighting.
We can accept she learned all the tricks with the Faceless Men but she hasnt spent the whole show training to be an assassin.
Where the heck did all these random jerks come from? I’ve been reading this site(as a ghost) since about season 2(when it was winteriscoming.net) and I don’t remember this much vitriol. For shame.
Knight of the Walkers,
Be that as it may concerning the cast (whether that’s confirmed or not) it really would have benefitted the story to draw this out over two 6 episode seasons than jam them into one.
Trust me, I get the logistics, but the story has suffered from it.
GRRM may very well have dug himself too deep a hole, but enough of these companion books… Finish the main story. Two more 400 page books can cover a lot, but you’re right, he needs to get on it or it will drive people insane to wonder what is going to happen.
Young Dragon,
He’ll condense those point of views by killing characters off. I think we’ll be down to 7-9 POV’s by the end of Winds {Jon, Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Sansa, Cersei(maybe), Jaime or Brienne (1 of them may die), Sam, then 1 or 2 of Arianne, Theon, Asha & Mel}. I expect Victarion, Barristan, Connington, Areo, & even Davos to die or their POV’s end.
After Mel resurrects Jon she could be killed & the Red Priest with Vic can handle the fire god duties later if needed. I could see a scenario where Cersei fakes surrender and stages a Sept explosion (like the show) & takes out Griff, Connington, Arianne and a lot of those characters & POV’s at a Young Griff wedding or crowning ceremony.
Oh yeah I’m sure a guy who’s username is “lol” is here in good faith.
Anyway, everyone who hates this episode should hate Dance With Dragons too. Talk about unsatisfying climaxes.
Robert Ball’s new Beautiful Death:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BxA5GxUHdB2/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
I was actually wondering if he’d make a poster for each death as they were quite epic. But he does feature Beric in the doorway and the giant’s eye with Lyanna in front of it! So much detail!
How on earth would that work. 3 episodes of waiting at Winterfell? Three whole episodes of fighting zombies? It was exhausting enough with one. Most of the characters would have absolutely nothing to do, something people never factor in when they talk about stretching out the show.
Han Solo shooting Palpatine in the back Thanks for that! First laugh I’ve had since last Sunday. And, I agree, 1000%.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
Fair enough. I mean that’s why books are 99/100 better than the TV/film adaptations (and is part of the reason George created the series in the first place). GoT is one of my TV shows, but the first three novels are undoubtedly better than their respective seasons. For a variety of reasons it then becomes more difficult to judge, with D&D doing their best with two books impossible to transfer to the screen.
I do hope George finishes because it will be fascinating to see the differences, and I’m sure some things will be better, but it will also be interesting to see how similar things are as well.
Anyway I’m getting off-topic. I definitely remember some divisive weeks on this site over the years, but this has been by far the most divisive. I doubt D&D expected this episode to be as divisive. The fact that they do expect the finale to be divisive makes me a little worried about whether it will be even more divisive than this episode. Ultimately who knows, finales are almost always divisive; I just hope I enjoy the episode.
What the hell, I saw a video where somebody put 2 videos above each other. Showing the same scene. But one which was the dark version people were talking about. Now I know why they complained. You didn’t see anything there. It was horrible. I read that many got that version. And it looked indeed like a transcode mistake by cable companies.
Below that was the perfect version that I got. And I think many here.
That means the problem wasn’t hbo and not the directing. Because else everyone would have gotten the same version that would have either been shit or the good version.
How did the cable companies not now how to transcode an episode normal. They should have known that they should check a heavily cgi and scenery episode. They fuck hbo with this, and they should give their excuse to hbo and the fans.
In simple computer words what happened is (and the downloaders know what I mean probably) : the normal file is 5gb version. They compress it to 1gb version. They send that to your TV. And let your TV make it a 5gb version again. Saving the cable company money because they don’t have to get better cables. And the quality of video drops.
In more simple terms see it as this: you pay for a car. The car company compress the car to a solid block because it’s cheaper to send to you. After arriving at your home they decide to take your car back to its original form. You’re car will probably have many dents on it. Same with this.
Or you buy a porselein vase. You don’t have enough room in your car, so you decide to smash it up put it in a bag. And at home you put the pieces back together. How that vase looks then is how the episode looks to people who had that problem.
Ps. I read that this can also be the fault of hbo itself by sending the transcode version themselves to the cable companies. I hope hbo will react to it.
Looper,
This sounds one of those things that makes up for missing it. Sounds exciting. Alone or with friends or family?
I really hope this becomes the show’s “what happened to the Russian??”. Somehow I’ve seen multiple people bring it up as if it’s a vital loose end
Aegon the IceDragon,
Martin hasn’t killed anyone of any significance since A Storm of Swords. Jon and Stannis are most likely coming back. He can’t just start killing people off in rapid succession without the deaths feeling cheap. Besides, that would require the story to return to the pace of the first 3 books, and judging from the sample chapters, that’s not happening.
Kevin1989,
Wow. Seems GOT is too big for TV.
https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/29/why-did-last-nights-game-of-thrones-look-so-bad-here-comes-the-science/amp/
Here somebody explained how that works. How our TV shows come to our TV screens. And why they compress shows. Why it’s needed and what could go wrong when a cable company isn’t prepared for a huge episode like the long night visually speaking. (codec is the word that they probably didn’t upgrade or that hbo forgot to give notice to the cable company to upgrade)
I know a lot about pc’s (not as much as some but more than the avarage person). And a bit about video compression. I have made mkv myself for fun in the past (until It became boring after a while).
This really make sense why this issue happened.
It also made clear those who complained about the darkness were right and couldn’t so anything themselves about it. I only urge them to watch the episode again if it’s resolved or watch a small piece to look how it supposed to look.
I think it’s maybe advisable to have a newsfeed about this before episode 4 starts.
It’s a shame it already took its course into viewers hating the episode unfortunately.
I don’t think we have seen the end of the night king. I think that while we may believe that threat is over, it isn’t. The episode was a set up to a future twist. All respect for D & D who have gone from having source material to “figure it out”. Did think the episode played too dark. Watched it in a brighter version and enjoyed it more. It was appropriate for Arya to kill NK. Just don’t think we’ve seen the end of that entity.
Seems like it. I think i hope the problem has resolve before hbo puts the episode again onto the air this week.
Ps. I have the clip myself downloaden on my phone where the 2 versions are shown. Maybe the mods want that video if they want to make a post about it. But I don’t know how to upload it here.
Kevin1989,
seems fine on hbo nordic. maybe thats because its streaming, not cable
I’m sorry I don’t speak gibberish.
You came here, trashed the writers and 4 seasons of the show which clearly definies you as hate-watcher if you keep watching the show you obviously don’t like and now you expect I’ll respect your opinion? Certainly not here on WotW considering I come here every day because I love the show. Seriously, I understand not liking the show but having zero respect to it and then coming to a FANsite and having this pretentious attitude like you own the show, that’s a no-go in my book. Any TV show or movie is a privilege to watch out there. You can either feel thankful you get to watch it, or don’t apply at all. Simple as that.
Che,
His twitter isn’t really him posting, though. It’s a fan account. I’d take everything with a grain of salt.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
Her entire life has been preparing her for this moment. I’m not talking about just her time with the faceless men.
All of her experiences led her to become an assassin.
She was a skilled archer in the pilot, got basic sword fighting lessons from Syrio, had her first kill in season 1, assumed a different identity after her father’s execution, more or less infiltrated Tywin’s inner circle in season 2 without being found out, was partly responsible for the deaths of several men there. Traveled with the Hound who taught her a great deal about killing, scored a few more kills, trained to sneak and swordfight by the faceless men, learned to carve out faces and become those faces.
Just because not all of it involved formal training doesn’t mean she wasn’t on the assassin path for the better part of the show.
Cosca,
The way it would have worked is we would have seen the dead attack The last Hearth and wiping them out and more of them slowly taking out everyone in their path. We could have seen Tormund and Beric escaping the wall and getting around the AoftD. We could have seen more exposition and dialogue concerning the reveal of Viserion, a greater emphasis on Jons parentage reveal to both him and to Dany.
Basically, there could have been more weight added showing the NK running a mok across the north.
Perhaps a battle where the Dothraki aren’t expediently wiped out in a dumb charge. Its quite clear they are trying to hit the high points and cut out as much fat as possible, but it leaves more to be desired.
What of Azor Ahai, or the Prince(ess) that was promised? Based on lore, we haven’t seen it.
Basically, let the story breathe. Im not saying 10 episodes of the NK marching to Winterfell. 6 solid episodes with the last 2 being the final battle and resolution. Then the final season is just dealing with Cersei.
Instead, Ep 4 is going to be aftermath of the battle followed by preparation to go after Cersei. Ep 5 will be mostly battling Cersei. Ep 6 will be tying it all together with a climactic finale.
That’s a lot for 3 episodes, their length notwithstanding.
Kevin1989,
I watched on HBO Now and still had to crank the brightness level on my tv up. I assumed it was a compression issue with them too.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
This is just a totally absurd attitude honestly. It’s like if you expected there to be 6 episodes just dedicated to the Battle of Blackwater. I also think its very telling that you want MORE scenes of characters pointlessly repeating exposition at each other that the audience knows, its the telltale sign of someone who wants the show to operate like a book.
You want an entire 6 episode season basically dedicated to the characters fighting zombies near constantly. As much screen time as 2 Lord of the Rings movies. Good Lord, as if the biggest battle in cinematic history was nothing!
Knight of the Walkers,
I can remember a few episodes where it was worse.
– S4/E3 ‘Breaker Of Chains’
– S5/E6 ‘Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken’
– S5/E9 ‘Dance Of The Dragons’
Just to name a few. There were probably a couple more as well. People forget it was pretty bad when they had the books to adapt. When people realized Lady Stoneheart was not in the series it was pretty bad. When storylines were altered and characters condensed and changed, the complaints were loud and numerous.
Young Dragon,
That tells me that it’s time for him to thin the herd again. Most of the characters I mentioned are in perilous situations. It’s not cheap if they die in combat. It’s realistic. But now that I think on it more, there’s a very real chance we’ll never get another book anyway. The show would basically become canon for events after Dragons. I’m starting to think the show spoiling Jon’s resurrection gutted George and took away his desire to finish the story.
King in the North East,
“She was a skilled archer in the pilot,”
You can’t be serious. Shes shown one upping her brother at target practice, and you deduce that makes a skilled archer?
“…got basic sword fighting lessons from Syrio,”
She learned how to stand sideways with a stick sword and dance around with it. She got the equivalent of maybe 6 months of piano lessons. She basically learned the “Hot Cross Buns” of how to hold a sword…
“had her first kill in season 1,”
Ah yes, stabbing a bully boy… some “kill”
“assumed a different identity after her father’s execution,”
Didnt have much of a choice, and was ready to blow it until the Nightswatchman saved her from doing something that might have gotten her killed or imprisioned…
“more or less infiltrated Tywin’s inner circle in season 2 without being found out, was partly responsible for the deaths of several men there.”
Ah yes, Tywin, realizing shes a girl makes her his maid. Littlefinger almost certainly recognized her but kept silent. And yes, Jaqen gave her 3 lives. Oh yeah, if not for Jaqen her cover would have been blown, so another time she was stupid, so he bailed her out.
“Traveled with the Hound who taught her a great deal about killing,”
How many fighting lessons did the hound give her, exactly?
“scored a few more kills, trained to sneak and swordfightby the faceless men, learned to carve out faces and become those faces.”
Aryas tenacity notwithstanding, it was with the Faceless Men were she truly learned how to do anything of substance. Everything up to that point wasnt real on the job, fight or die (or get get your butt kicked) experience, despite what you imagine.
“Just because not all of it involved formal training doesn’t mean she wasn’t on the assassin path for the better part of the show.”
Everything up to her going to Braavos was setting her up, but you can’t say she wouldnt have been crushed like a bug by even the worst swordsman prior to becoming a Faceless Man. Well, that’s another issue entirely. I find it incredibly unlikely that the Faceless Men would let a trainee just walk away after learning all their arts to use those skills as they pleased. But hey, gotta have a little plothole or Arya never leaves Braavos alive.
6 Episodes of the Battle of the Blackwater?
Where did I intimate anything close to that? This is the War for the Dawn. Its not just one battle.
All we saw was one scene where Tormund and Beric tun into Ed and Co and find Lord Umber dead. That was it. Everything else was just everyone at Winterfell and we didn’t even see all the key characters interact, and when we did, we glossed over huge turns of events.
The audience knowing certain things doesnt mean we don’t want to see the characters deal with it on screen. Dont go hyperbole on me.
Like I said, give weight to the AotD marching south. Show them taking over everything in their path. Give more weight to the reveals. Show our Nights Watch heros racing to beat the AoftD a little more.
Again, just let it breathe more. This isnt a 2 hour movie. Things dont have to be rushed.
This sort of mistake is common within large groups of fans. There were a lot of Harry Potter fans who thought that the stories were all about magic rather than about Harry Potter. There are SoI&F fans who think that the stories are about regions rather than a small number of protagonists.
What it gets back to is the fact that there are many differentreasons why people like tales. Some like the stories. Some like the characters. Some like the plots. Some like mysteries. At least for the fantasy (and occasionally SciFi) works, some like the world-building. For thematic works (of which SoI&F is not one), some like the themes. And, of course, many check 2+ of those boxes.
What can get forgotten is that story is the aspect on which storytellers are most focused. They are not stumbling blindly through this exercise: they know what they are trying to communicate. With most stories (like Lost, SoI&F, Harry Potter, etc.), the characters are inseparable from the story. However, all of these things are servants to story: and once it becomes clear what the story is, it really limits what we’ll see in the future. So, fans ignoring story are the ones who really set themselves up for disappointment.
Well. What a pleasant thread this one is. Where did the random jerks come from? 😂
“Shakespearean” only means bad things to me, so drat!
Hmm. There are a couple of neat aspects, for sure (Beric, Theon with part of a wolf face to show his Stark-ness), but I’m a little disappointed. It’s nice that they have Qhono, but is Dany hugging Heartsbane the Jorah reference? Hmm.
Pigeon,
Is the one to the right of Theon & Qhono supposed to be Edd? It looks like a crow behind him. Cool that all of the ones that died & wighted have the blue light shooting skyward through their eyes. Viserion even made the poster. Would this be his 2nd death poster?
I’ve been purposely staying out of this debate because it’s really wearing on me, but I do have something I want to add. To those complaining that D&D only knew about Arya killing the NK for around 3 years, and that it wasn’t planned from the start.. who cares? Even though some elements of this were obviously retconned, this is one of the most successful and effective retcons I can think of. And since they did know about it, they’ve been laying clues ever since. That’s good storytelling!
Most of us know that GRRM classifies himself as a gardener. He loves discovering things in the story as it unfolds. Why is this wrong for D&D? When it fits, it fits. And everything about Arya killing the NK fits and works wonderfully in the show.
I think it’s really important to keep in mind that the creative process is a very mysterious and non-linear thing. In a sprawling story like ASoIaF, there’s no way either GRRM or D&D can meticulously plan everything in advance. Just as an example, back when I studied composition, my professor would point out thematic connections and developments in my music that I never intended or planned for. I remember him also telling me that it is not unusual that someone else analyzing someone’s music will find more details and connections than the composer him or herself would. This is to illustrate that new ideas emerge as your creation keeps evolving, and if it fits, use it!
Bravo to D&D for taking this risk! As GRRM has said, the worst thing is for any piece of art to be ignored, and this is certainly not being ignored.
Che,
Well. He touched. Bran ages and ages ago. Bran still doesn’t have blue eyes. Obviously it takes more than a touch. It’s some mental thing. So that tweet, I’m not sure what he’s trying to say. Though people are eating it up!
That doesn’t rule out some other thing, I guess? But I don’t know what.
Kevin1989,
I have been wondering what Bran was doing the entire time. I think it would help if they have some follow up to this in episode 4. I like the Long Night, but this is one of the things I feel is lacking. There has to be more to Bran than just sitting there.
Enharmony1625,
👏🏼👏🏼😁
Enharmony1625,
Nice post.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
Your arguments appear to all boil down to “well, that’s not really that impressive”.
At eleven, being able to hit a bullseye from twice the distance you’d normally be at takes some skill.
You: “That’s hardly impressive really, must have been a lucky shot.”
Killed a stable boy.
You: “Well, la dee da! It was just an accident and a random bully, so whatever.”
Assumed a different identity.
You: “Only because she had no other choice, so that doesn’t count.”
I’d go on but that’s really all you’ve got, it would seem.
If you want to be dismissive of every step she took, voluntarily or not, towards becoming an assassin because she was still learning, be my guest. If you want to ignore that everything she’s done over the course of the show has been about learning how to kill, be stealthy and assume identities, I won’t stop you.
You clearly care about it more than I do.
I’m done with the subject.
Should be on a plaque and sent to everyone who gets too involved in fiction as a general warning.
King in the North East,
“Your arguments appear to all boil down to “well, that’s not really that impressive.””
Nooo… Im laying out facts as seen on screen without embellishment…
“At eleven, being able to hit a bullseye from twice the distance you’d normally be at takes some skill.
You: “That’s hardly impressive really, must have been a lucky shot.””
Twice the normal distance? And what distance was that, pray tell? We are talking about two little kids. Being a “skilled” archer as you put it doesnt mean hitting a stationary target during target practice, with a distance that’s hardly defined. You’re retroactively imagining Arya being a great archer because you want to fantasize it.
“Killed a stable boy.
You: “Well, la dee da! It was just an accident and a random bully, so whatever.””
LOL well that’s exactly what it was. An accident. Not a skilled kill lol
“Assumed a different identity.
You: “Only because she had no other choice, so that doesn’t count.””
Yes. Duh. Your counter arguments lack any substance because there isnt any.
“If you want to be dismissive of every step she took, voluntarily or not, towards becoming an assassin because she was still learning, be my guest.
You clearly care about it more than I do.”
You obviously care because you responded, unconvincingly….
Lord Parramandas,
ONE – i dont have ZERO respect for It since i like half of the seasons and the last Two Seasons lack of seven episodes when compared to others, so i like the show more than 50% of It.
TWO – im Glad the show exists so i could know about the books, and thats a point for DD.
TREE – Since i know, this site is about the books AND series, so i Fell Free to have my opinion on BOTH, and i think i have the right to watch something that i dont think its good anymore and see where its going, and my opinion is that the show wiriting is terrible since season 5 AND that the show was never good as the books are TO ME ( really to Me) even on the Seasons that i think its good 1-4. And I again , ME, i Hope in the case the books are finished HBO remake the series with better writers more Seasons and more Episodes per season.
My opinion, im trully Sorry If i made you mad or anything Else. And again Sorry for my english anyway.
Enharmony1625,
I think it’s obvious why most people who had a problem with it do so. It’s been discussed ad nauseam, and I’ve moved on. But it has to do with the books, of course, and the whole AA/PwwP prophecy business. I would expect that D&D asked George who that was long before 3 years ago. Most likely he told them before the show even began. So the qualms are strictly by those who think that the one who killed the NK in the show fulfilled the prophecy and is AA/PwwP. If that is the case, you would think D&D would have known that Arya would be the one to do it long ago.
But as many have pointed out, in our opinions, Arya isn’t AA/PwwP in the books. D&D know that too, which is why they only recently decided it would be Arya who kills the NK, a show only creation. The Others probably won’t be defeated by one character killing the Great Other in the books. So for the show’s purpose, having Arya do it as a twist, instead of Jon, didn’t matter in regards to prophecy. Because prophecies have never really been a big part of the show.
It’s really a matter of Jon/Dany fans feeling like D&D disregarded the prophecy, and deep down we never know if we’ll ever get to read the books to confirm who it is. We feel like it mattered that the ones most likely to be AA/PwwP, Jon and Dany, had a larger role in killing the NK. D&D didn’t. That’s all.
I’m not going to rehash the argument that Arya is AA/PwwP in the books either. I believe that to be ridiculous. I stated why earlier in the week. Others feel differently. That’s okay.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
You tell yourself that.
I actually did not present ANY counterarguments there. Just pointed out that yours were entirely dismissive regardless of content or context.
I see no need to continue this any further, as I’ve told you.
I think you’re right. I was puzzling over that because I thought it was a soldier with a helmet, but with the crow, that makes more sense!
Kevin1989,
https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/29/why-did-last-nights-game-of-thrones-look-so-bad-here-comes-the-science/amp/
That’s a good article and explains the ‘dark screen’ issue well. I agree that probably a lot of the negative comments have simply been because viewers couldn’t see what was going on (me included)!
I have watched ep3 now some 6 times and played with the settings (brilliance, contrast, etc), but it doesn’t improve things. Increasing the brilliance one can see a bit more, but the screen then gets washed out and looks even crappier 🙁
The web is full of complaints about this. HBO should re-edit their future releases of DVD’s and Blue Rays to resolve this issue.
You raised an interesting point about the Faceless Men letting a “trainee just walk away after learning all their arts,” as you said. This is something I also question. We know that Jaqen gave Arya permission to leave, knowing that she would complete her list (e.g. Cersei). He essentially allowed these specific deaths to occur; however, did he know that she would kill the Night King? Arya also caused many other deaths connected to her avenging Walder Frey that were not originally part of her list. I wonder if the Many Faced God is okay with all of these “other deaths” – the Night King’s death/ending especially. Perhaps the MFG wanted the deaths the NK would have given him, and now Arya is in debt (or perhaps not). I realize that Arya ending the NK was practically a last minute decision made by the writers three years ago, but now that it has happened I am curious how this will turn out for her.
Snow Crystal,
Oops…I meant avenging her family by killing Walder Frey!
Lord Parramandas,
Speaking of LOST, did you watch the show as it was airing or did you get into it after their run was over? If the latter, have you ever read Doc Jensen’s recaps? Because his pieces were such a big part of the experience that when the show bowed out, part of the mourning was knowing that we’d never be riveted by his in depth writing ever again. The dude had such an appreciation for the show, it was really contagious.
There is no need for a re-edit. The episode itself is fine, simply putting it on bluray fixes the issue, because it will have a different codec and will be a lot less compressed resulting in a better PQ. It will be even better when it’s released on UHD.
It’s why videophiles like me stick to physical media.
Kevin1989,
Thanks for posting. Was a helpful and interesting read 🙂
Knight of the Walkers,
Did you see an interview before the season start where Dave and Dan said they want to be far away from the internet after the last episode airs? (cue worried emoji)
Lol,
The site is for the SHOW not for the novels. Novels are only mentioned because the show is adapted from them. But WotW as a site is a fansite about the SHOW in first place!
“I think I have a right to watch something I don’t like” – and that’s the reason you get zero respect from me especially after trashing the creators themselves. Period! If there wasn’t for hate-watchers, fansites would be much more pleasant to visit.
I think my issue here isn’t the who did it who survived who whatever except how silly it’s going to be watching previous seasons knowing this is the end of the WW plot line
When I rewatch season 1 I know Ned’s gonna SPOILER die but I understand what lead to it and it makes the story even more interesting
When I rewatch the red wedding I know Rob Cat and the northerners are gonna SPOILER be massacred but it makes the Lannister’s seem even scarier and leaves us the viewer wondering wtf back then and now satisfied that there’s a crazy road ahead for the remaining Stark’s
When I rewatch any scene where Jon is talking about the northern threat I’m gonna be screaming at my tv YOU KNOW NOTHING YA BLOODY IDIOT JUST FIRE AN ARROW AT THE DUDE AND HE DEAD – seriously didn’t even need Arya to stab him just shoot a Dragonglass arrow at him
Bran’s training – like ok dude you got an all access pass to watch whatever you like but you’re useless so it no longer matters
I think that’s the issue here – it’s going to make rewatching the show awkward
When Harry defeated Voldemort (hear me out this may seem cheesy except it wasn’t) we got a huge twist at the end and it was built up all along – it wasn’t just a single stab or a single curse – there were some real sad deaths too that were twists in itself – this simply wasn’t a twist but I’m still waiting – we have 3 episodes left
Sansa’s Knight,
Nobody had Dragonglass Arrows earlier though. In fact they barely Even had dragonglass before Season 7
No, ignorance didn’t prevail: people spent seasons sounding the alarm and rallying allies to combat this threat. Seasons, years! People say the Night King died early but this is literally the closing hours of the show and the NK slayed in every appearance he had: season 5, massacres everyone at Hardhome, season 6 destroys the Raven and obliberates Bran’s posse, season 7 he whoops a dragon and in season 8 he shook off virtually every attempt to kill him except for the very last strike. Like they took a dozen shots at the king and missed. Except for one crucial blow.
I mean, the guy had a pretty great run. People are disappointed because they wanted him to take out Cersei or something, though heading to King’s Landing means nothing to the Night King; he doesn’t care about politics or the throne. Getting to Bran was his goal and he’s probably one of the few characters in the show to almost get everything he wanted.
The Dark Lord is gone. Now let’s watch Araga– Jon and allies tear themselves apart over foolish prophecies and a big metal seat.
Sansa’s Knight,
That’s ridiculous. Without allying with Danerys and her dragons, the Army of the Dead would have overrun Winterfell and taken out the Starks. Then, Westeros would have been doomed.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
To give one argument that I think you meant. After the battle of the Blackwater, neither the Lannisters, neither Stannis were defeated. Stannis lost the battle but not the war, that was only in season 5 when he was defeated for good.
Enharmony1625,
Even GoT plan changed a lot, I remember that Cat was supposed to go north with Bran and die there. But the story changed and she died at the Twins. And I don’t care that Arya stabbed the NK, I think she deserved it.
Black Raven,
I think you have a pass to download the episode now. The download has the good version. Which I think is a big mistake that a download is better quality than some got through their paid HBO-subscription.
King in the North East,
Just think about this: Hodor, Jojen, Summer, the children of the forest, even Osha and Rickon died so that Bran could.. sit and be bait? Would you care to watch his storyline again?
Why did the NK wanted to reach Bran? Was there any humanity left in him? How did humanity defeated him the first time? Why did he attacked now after thousands of years? I guess we’ll never know.
Who cares about dragons? Arya is a walking nuke, at this point she should be the new Avenger. She’s like an isekai MC. Any plot other than sending her to kill Cercei is stupid at this point.
Why was Jon resurrected again? So that he could bang his aunt? What was the point of him being the son of Rhaegar?
Cercei is a f*cking genius. She was right all along not caring about the WW. The theme of the series about humanity being too caught up in their conflicts and not caring about the greater threat (which is a metaphor for climate change in the real world), well, forget about that.
The Dothraki crossed the sea, just to be thrown away as fodder? They didn’t even give them dragonglass (Melissandre and the flaming swords were not part of the original plan).
Hey, some guy who can resurrect the dead comes, lets all hide in the crypts.
Lets put the trebuchets in the front and the barricades behind the army. The NK will never expect that.
I’m sure Tyrion will come up with some plan, he’ll probably use Bran’s knowledge. Nope, nevermind.
Honestly, I could go on and on..
Yes
And when I was in HS in the 70s I was truly terrified of the looming ice age. Age brings perspective. …
I was a kid in the 90s and I remember I cried thinking that life on earth would end in the 2000s.
Climate change is real but scientists need research grants and for that they need to make their work seem uber important. It’s sales tactics.
Expectations are disappointments waiting to happen.
I, for one, am enjoying a series and event that I doubt I will have the opportunity to experience again in my lifetime.
Do I agree with everything? No.
Would I write some things differently? Yes.
That, however, is irrelevant and has no bearing on a TV show that I am watching.
It’s not our story!
If the books were finished these conversations would not be happening. Since it is not, viewers think they have ownership or influence on the content. They do not, and perhaps should attempt to write their own multi-book saga.
https://theconversation.com/amp/why-protesters-should-be-wary-of-12-years-to-climate-breakdown-rhetoric-115489
https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1
ghost,
Still 3 episodes left
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Right. But even ardent book fans (e.g. the always-reliable and deeply knowledgeable Aziz from History of Westeros) are telling people who have a problem with this to review the AA/PtwP prophecy. By having Arya kill the Night King, the show is neither confirming Arya as AA, nor is it necessarily ignoring the prophecy either. There are AA parallels in ASoIaF where the “hero” is not the one to strike the killing blow (I saw someone post the excerpt on Twitter a few days ago). This does suggest that the books will not have a single AA either, and that it will be, as Mel says in season 7, several people who all play a part.
Ultimately I think it has a lot to do with people building up the scenario in their mind, misunderstanding the AA/PtwP prophecy, and feeling cheated when they didn’t get the answer(s) they wanted. Instead, it’s worth taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture of how all the pieces fit together.
This is a reasonable assessment.
Enharmony1625,
I agree. I went through my own nerdy expectations grieving process. I’ve reached acceptance. The good thing about the final 3 episodes is that there is really only one expectation derived from the books left(valonqar). And even then I am prepared for The Hound or Sansa to be the one to do the deed, not the usual suspects.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Jon Snow aka Aegon T. = valonqar
Bran was bait from the time that the NK put his mark on him. He must have been so p*ssed all those years that he couldn’t get to the 3ER in the cave. He’s been waiting a long time to take him out, I would think. Jojen must have seen what was going to happen since he seemed so sure about Bran being important. By touching Bran, everything fell into place for the NK to able to follow Bran all the way to Winterfell….and be killed.
The NK attacked now, after thousands of years, because he could. 🙂 Once he had Viserion to take down the Wall, it was easy.
I don’t know why Jon was brought back from the dead, except perhaps it was to join forces with Daenerys, go beyond the Wall, and allow the NK the take Viserion, setting a chain of events in motion that led to his destruction.
The point of Jon being the son of Rhaegar is that now he is the rightful king, and not Dany.
I agree about the Dothraki. I wondered the same thing. Why no dragonglass? Well, I guess the episode might have been shorter, lol. Maybe they didn’t have time for Gendry to work that much dragonglass. Or maybe the Dothraki refused to give up the curved blades that they were used to using. Shrug.
King in the North East,
Jon feels it should have been him that kills the Night King … he won’t believe it’s over
Che,
that is a fan page twitter account though.
So Episode 4 will be “Shakespearian” (sic)? I take this to mean it will be “human,” recalling the fine truth of Verdi’s statement that Shakespeare was “the great searcher of the human heart.” ‘Twould be an excellent corrective, if it is indeed so.
Maybe we will get the “humanity” put back into the story, this episode after last week’s sensational spectacle, which I will term Meyerbeerian and recall Wagner’s astute summation of Meyerbeer’s works: that they were “all effect and no cause.”
Speaking of music, the score of last week’s episode was fantastically applied even though the melodic inspiration seemed labored. Djawadi does wonders!
Renly’s Peach,
I thought the curved blades were all new dragonglass ones. They looked black to me.
ghost,
I don’t disagree that some of those are good criticisms. I expected more from the episode too, but I’m not too bothered by it.
I think it’s fairly predictable at this point that Dany is going to go hard on Kings Landing with her dragons in episode 5. Lot’s of people are going to die including innocent women and children, the only question is who will actually be cool with this?! I assume this is what Emilia hinted at when she said she was worried how people would perceive Dany when it’s all said and done.
Not so sure about tonight’s episode, I don’t expect too much to happen other than the survivors squabbling about what comes next, I just pray that Jon doesn’t give up his heritage for Dany or any other odd plot developments (like Dany regaining a big army out of nowhere). The only other plot is will Bronn turn up and kill one of the Lannister brothers?
That was my reaction too, some sort of tragedy is coming. It must mean the end of the Dany/Jon relationship because of the heritage and her desire for the throne above all else.
The episode is seventy minutes long and I’m really struggling to understand how they can fill it meaningfully and at the same time set-up a big battle at Kings Landing for the next one.
I think you have it spot on, people will be upset that Dany doesn’t get pregnant (assuming she doesn’t), Tyrion didn’t make a secret pact with Cersei (I think we can dismiss this now), Dany goes/or doesn’t go Mad Queen, Jon doesn’t rule, Sansa doesn’t rule etc. etc. people have built up their vision for how this should all end and the majority are going to be really disappointed.
That would be quite a unique twist which nobody (at least I’ve seen) predicted. The only question would be, why?
Wow that’s pretty big news/spoiler if true. I’m sure we’ve all figured there will be death to come in Episode 5 but not sure who beyond the obvious (Cersei, Euron, Qyburn etc.). If I had to guess Greyworm (finally as I’ve predicted his death too many times already) and the Hound could be favourites. Oh and Jamie is going to die I’m sure of that, so he’d be a big one.
Yep I’m on board with this too, Varys switching to Jon makes the most sense.
Jon Snowed,
I think at this point, there are only 4 characters that could cause a Red Wedding type shock by dying. Those are Jon,Dany,Tyrion, and Arya. I think Jon is the most likely of the four to die.
If Dany kills Jon in order to usurp his heritage I am going to be seriously pissed off. Agree though, must mean an unforeseen death is coming.