Kit Harington and more weigh in on that shocking Game of Thrones final scene

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Everyone is talking about the final scene with Jon Snow from last night’s Game of Thrones season 5 finale. Kit Harington, the show’s producer and episode director are giving interviews today discussing the shocking events at the Wall, and whether that really happened. John Bradley also weighs in Jon Snow’s possibilities in season 6.

Major spoilers, so consider yourself warned!

Did Game of Thrones seriously just kill off another of its biggest stars, in Jon Snow? Harington and D.B. Weiss are saying yes.

Speaking to Entertainment Weekly about “Mother’s Mercy,” Kit says:

I had a sit-down with Dan and David, we did the Tony Soprano walk [letting an actor know they’re being whacked]. And they said, “Look, you’re gone, it’s done.” And as far as the salary thing goes, that angered me when that story came out. I don’t know where it came from, but it was inaccurate in many ways. It’s going to put questions into your head and into fans’ heads that things are not what they are. Quite honestly, I have never been told the future of things in this show, but this is the one time I have. They sat me down and said, “This is how it is.” If anything in the future isnot like that, then I don’t know about it – it’s only in David and Dan and George’s heads. But I’ve been told I’m dead. I’m dead. I’m not coming back next season. So that’s all I can tell you, really.

GOT510_120214_HS__DSC2619[1]Harington also discusses his exit with Vulture, declaring, “It’s final. He’s dead.”

“I’ve had to watch what I say, but it’s a big moment, it’s a beautiful ending, and it’s how I wanted to go.”

Harington and co-star John Bradley addressed some popular theories surrounding Jon’s death and ways to get around it. They shoot down the Ghost theory mockingly.

Bradley says to Vulture, “I don’t think a lot of people would be perfectly happy if Jon Snow was now played by a dog, if it’s a dog with Longclaw strapped to his back. […] A dog is not going to have the same global sex appeal, unless you’re an absolute nutcase.”

The actors break down most popular theories in amusing ways so be sure to check out the Vulture article.

Executive producer and writer D.B. Weiss has his own thoughts on the big finish, as well. He tells Entertainment Weekly:

We would hope that after seeing the scene and the way it’s shot that the answer to that will be unambiguous in the minds of the people watching it,” Weiss explained. “It should be pretty clear what happens in by the time you’re done seeing that scene. It’s not an, ‘Oh what just happened scene?’

Series author George R.R. Martin reminded EW in an older interview however that death is less certain in his world. “My readers should know better than to take anything as gospel,” he told EW in 2011.

Lastly, director David Nutter talks to Access Hollywood about the finale and mentions Kit’s production farewell:

“And after that of course, we had cake and a farewell. … I got a chance to speak and then of course, Kit got a chance to thank and say goodbye to the cast and crew that he had fallen in love with for the last few years, and it was a really, really wonderful nice moment.”

As for Nutter’s own thoughts on whether Jon Snow is truly gone for good?

“That’s more of a probably Dan and David question, but I will say this — that his death is un-refutable and his death is one that is not gonna be easy to – this isn’t like the egg that fell off the wall and cracked himself, this will be a very powerful one. There’ll be no question if he’s dead or no.”

Check out Access Hollywood for more of Nutter’s thoughts on the finale and the Walk.

409 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Jon’s dead and won’t be in Season 6.

      Season 7, however, is another matter. If they left the Wall out of S6 (just stories from it, etc) it would probably be the best mindfuck ever. Just my thought!

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    2. “I knelt beside his cold body, and said the old words. Not because I believed in them, but… he was my friend. And he was dead. And they were the only words I knew. And for the first time in my life, the Lord replied. Beric’s eyes opened. And I knew the truth: our God is the one true God… and all men must serve Him.”

      #believe

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    3. They’re not going to spoil GRRM’s story before the next book is out. They’re giving Winds of Winter a chance before anything is spoiled. So, yeah yeah, he’s dead… for now.

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    4. I propose the theory that:
      1. Jon will be dead for all of season 6 and “the winds of winter”. Because that is what kit said. He is not coming back next season.
      2. He will make a comeback as azor ahai in season 7 and “a dream for spring”.
      3. Maybe he will be a different type of person or being when he makes his comeback. Like how Ser Gregor is now Robert Strong. He’s back, but very very different.

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    5. I find it interesting that the one death that’s almost definitely permanent(Stannis) they cut away from,but the one that’s almost definitely not permanent they showed in full. Way to troll the fandom D&D :D.

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    6. My theory (and possibly the theory of others as well as I’m new here)

      1) John Snow is of Stark/Targerrian heritage
      2) Mellisandra shows up at Castle Black at just the right time.
      3) She will resurrect John via the Lord of Light
      4) John will wield the flaming sword of LongClaw
      5) Danny will eventually make her way to Westeros
      6) Danny will unite with John and possibly marry him
      7) John will ride one of Danny’s other two dragons.
      8) Bran will play a more prominent role and will command the 3rd dragon with his mind (a la the flight references for him throughout the books/show).
      9) Arya will fail at becoming a full faceless man but will use the skills to move the story forward in a prominent way.
      10) Sansa will probably come to rule the North

      Obviously many other sub-plots with much more detail but I think that is likely going to be the basic, awesome, outline. 🙂

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    7. If that’s really the end for him, I think I’m done. But as Pigeon pointed out, it might not be until the end of season 6 (or season 7 filming) that we know for sure. Gah.

      If Jon goes out like that and doesn’t come back, it’s a bridge too far for me.

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    8. An entire season without Jon (Snow or Targaryan) will suck. I hope that’s not the way they go, if he is in fact resurrected.

      One episode, maybe two, I would be okay with – but an entire season?! Please, no.

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    9. Ser Florian,

      I think he’s talking shit since it would be kinda unrealistic to postpone his resurrection until Season 7. The Night’s Watch will probably burn his body the following morning at the latest so unless his body survives the flames, Mel would need to resurrect him that very night.

      Although I suppose they could just dump or bury his his body somewhere… but that wouldn’t be very smart considering the last two bodies they didn’t burn came back as wights. I doubt they’d want to risk that.

      He will be gone for a few episodes at most… then Melisandre will say the words and he will rise again. Believe it, my friends.

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    10. Valaquen:
      They’re not going to spoil GRRM’s story before the next book is out. They’re giving Winds of Winter a chance before anything is spoiled. So, yeah yeah, he’s dead… for now.

      YESSSS! Thank you, anonymous poster who’s sharing belief in TWoW before season 6! From your keyboard to Martin’s Wordstar word processor!!!!

      #FingersCrossed

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    11. I don’t know what to think. I am still hopeful, but I am starting to worry that D&D are pulling another LS excision with Jon. If Jon is gone for good, I feel like I wasted a decade being a fan of the series. That’s probably too harsh, but it’s how I feel. If George really did end Jon’s story with FTW, then he either is a really poor storyteller or he lost control of the story and killed him just for shock value. We know from the original outline of the series that he planned for Ned to die and for Robb to die trying to avenge, but Jon was included with Tyrion,Dany,Arya, and Bran as the 5 main characters that the story would follow til the end. I just refuse to believe Jon’s story is done in the books. The show is another matter entirely, unfortunately.

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    12. The comments I’ve seen on other sites seem to agree with a lot of us here. D&D, Kit, and the rest are selling the “Jon is really dead” so hard and fast that it sounds like they are trying way too hard and it comes off as fake.

      Unless GRRM explicitly says the Jon is dead-dead and not dead but will be resurrected dead; it’s not canon for me.

      I just really hope he’s not gone for all of Winds/season 6. It would hurt the story. The White Walker stuff needs to get in gear and with Arya in Braavos and Dany and Tyrion looking like they’re going to take awhile to get to Westeros, we’re left with fugitive Sansa and broke down and busted Cersei for main plots in Westeros.

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    13. GeekFurious,

      I agree! I just can’t imagine that the show would make so drastic change. They have talked years that they will have roughly the same ending that George has planned. Because of the backstory in books I’m sure that Jon has a big role to play in the endgame. He will come back!!

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    14. LOL at Kit trying to convince everyone he’s done. Did you learn your skills of denial from Benedict Cumberbatch?

      They didn’t bring Melisandre back to Castle Black for nothing, she’s going to revive Jon. She even learned the technique off of Thoros in S3.

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    15. It seems the episode followed the books closely, but book readers refuse to believe Jon is dead. My understanding from the episode, Jon’s entire Season 5 arc, and all the interviews, is that he is truly dead. He probably will be resurrected, but not until the end few episodes of the series. No Jon in Season 6, where the focus will move away from the North and the Wall. Sam has been sent away, so there’s no one left at the Wall. But of course, beyond the Wall there is Bran.
      Season 6 will be quite interesting with emphasis on new storylines and the further destruction of House Lannister.

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    16. Did John Bradley not watch the finale? He says “proximity” is a problem with getting Mel to intervene with Jon. But she’s right there!!

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    17. I could but the show Jon is actually dead. Could be another LSH. It would be interesting if Jon was supposed to be the savior of the world but he was killed prematurely. Another win for he Night’s King

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    18. So, I’m not even upset.. at all… because I’ve always been convinced he’s coming back.

      …but now I’m starting to wonder if I’m just in denial? And now I’m getting worried…!

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    19. The storytelling makes it very clear that Jon is coming back. It really isn’t something that anybody needs to fret over. How long he’s gone, perhaps… Walking away from the burning pyre? Or crows go to get the body for the ceremony and it’s gone? Or we straight up see red carpet revive him? In any case, this gets him away from the wall.

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    20. From the article:

      “She’s magic. She can do anything she wants.” The problem is proximity, however, so Bradley judges this one as “impossible.”

      Not really getting the proximity problem… she’s right there in Castle Black. But, OK, sure, let’s keep this charade going as long as we can. 😉

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    21. If there is no Kit Harrington next season, I suspect there would be no Mel and Davos too since they are at the wall. I can’t see them leaving them out for the whole season as well – too many loose ends left there to completely leave it up in the air a whole season (whether or not GRRM would leave out JS in the books? Well thats always possible because he can be evil like that 🙂 ).

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    22. Season 6:

      -Sansa in peril (YAWN)
      -Dany amidst the Dothraki….again. Meandering through the wilderness? (deja vu) Drogon catnaps and plays with large ball of string (yay!)
      -Cersei plots to blow up all the wildfire under the city (hmmm)
      -Trystane’s boy band makes really sad songs for Rock7K FM
      -Ellaria and smurfs smirk
      -Jaime goes mental, kills Ellaria, Obara, Tyene, Nymeria, then high 5’s Doran and does a jig with Areo and learns one-handed axe-wielding. Also tells Cersei to fuck herself, stays in Dorne, and sends Brienne a crayon letter telling her to stop being a dick and come enjoy the sunshine.
      -Franken-3P0 is dismantled by Sandor-D2
      -Dany’s still meandering
      -passive-aggressive road trip with Daario and Jorah ends when Jorah picks up Dany’s ring, puts it on, and is transported to Mordor. Runs into Ned, but Ned keeps insisting he call him ‘Boromir’.
      -Amber Alert finally goes out for Rickon.
      -Tyrion drinks all the wine in Mereen and still rules better than anyone, the end.

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    23. Valaquen:
      They’re not going to spoil GRRM’s story before the next book is out. They’re giving Winds of Winter a chance before anything is spoiled. So, yeah yeah, he’s dead… for now.

      Poor child…

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    24. The fact Kit and D & D have come straight out of the gates in full denial mode makes me believe this is a work. They’re only drawing attention to the matter rather than allowing Unsullied to grieve.

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    25. weirwoodtreehugger:

      I just really hope he’s not gone for all of Winds/season 6.It would hurt the story.The White Walker stuff needs to get in gear and with Arya in Braavos and Dany and Tyrion looking like they’re going to take awhile to get to Westeros, we’re left with fugitive Sansa and broke down and busted Cersei for main plots in Westeros.

      I’m going to speculate that we’re going to find out a lot about the White Walkers through both Bran and Sam. I think Sam will learn how to defeat them, and Bran will bring us their backstory. I could even see the season ending with Bran having a vision of Azor Ahai and then cutting to Jon breathing life again. Also, I’m thinking that perhaps the reason Tyrion and Varys stayed in Mereen was to get it together once and for all so that when Daenerys finally comes back, she can just set out for Westeros.

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    26. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Something about the way they did that final shot makes me feel like it’s impossible for him to not come back… Then again I felt the same way with Catelyn. Both of their deaths felt so similar to me. Everything is quiet, eerie music, blood getting everywhere, slowly zooming in… I don’t know. I’m starting to think this whole story is about humanities failure to bond together and face a major threat.

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    27. Not worried at all about if Kit comes back…worried about when.

      I think it would be a mistake to leave him out of S6 entirely. Doesn’t that imply that the Wall – and most everyone there – would not be present in S6 either? We are headed towards the final act. The White Walkers are coming and so are the dragons. How can the main player (or what I believe to be the main player) be absent for an entire season?

      There is a reason why Melisandre headed north. She is where she needs to be. Now, its just a matter of how long this charade continues.

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    28. I think Jon will be resurrected near the end of season 6 in a scene that was shot during this past season to keep it under wraps

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    29. If he is not revived on the first couple episodes on season 6 then he is truly dead. Come on people, be realistic, this is not Bran case, Jon was killed. What are they going to do with the corpse, put it in a fridge until necesary?

      Personally i think he will be revived and i never bought that ghost theory from the books neither

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    30. Arriba:
      If he is not revived on the first couple episodes on season 6 then he is truly dead. Come on people, be realistic, this is not Bran case, Jon was killed. What are they going to do with the corpse, put it in a fridge until necesary?

      That’s the thing – they’ll burn the body, probably fairly soon. So Mel has as much time as it takes them to build the pyre and light it… unless you are expecting a Dany-season-1 situation, which would pretty much be ridiculous, IMHO.

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    31. Pigeon:
      Season 6:

      -Sansa in peril (YAWN)
      -Dany amidst the Dothraki….again. Meandering through the wilderness? (deja vu) Drogon catnaps and plays with large ball of string (yay!)
      -Cersei plots to blow up all the wildfire under the city (hmmm)
      -Trystane’s boy band makes really sad songs for Rock7K FM
      -Ellaria and smurfs smirk
      -Jaime goes mental, kills Ellaria, Obara, Tyene, Nymeria, then high 5’s Doran and does a jig with Areo and learns one-handed axe-wielding. Also tells Cersei to fuck herself, stays in Dorne, and sends Brienne a crayon letter telling her to stop being a dick and come enjoy the sunshine.
      -Franken-3P0 is dismantled by Sandor-D2
      -Dany’s still meandering
      -passive-aggressive road trip with Daario and Jorah ends when Jorah picks up Dany’s ring, puts it on, and is transported to Mordor. Runs into Ned, but Ned keeps insisting he call him ‘Boromir’.
      -Amber Alert finally goes out for Rickon.
      -Tyrion drinks all the wine in Mereen and still rules better than anyone, the end.

      Great!
      What about season 7?

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    32. No Kit for season 6 is just strange.Surely funeral like Aemon,no?

      Night’s Watch will want to burn his body the next day and be done with it.Unless they dump his body to ice cell and there is precisely no point of doing that.Just remember that wight from S01.Maybe someone will steal his body.I’m looking at you Mel.Maybe with with certain help of The Onion Knight.What about Widlings?They’re not going to be exactly happy about this,and Tormund is practically their leader now.Surely some vengeance?

      Nevertheless, to lose Jon and Stannis in one episode…that’s harsh,it really is.

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    33. Pigeon,

      This is gold! Especially…

      Jorah picks up Dany’s ring, puts it on, and is transported to Mordor. Runs into Ned, but Ned keeps insisting he call him ‘Boromir’.

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    34. Is Jon Snow dead, yes…

      Will he be dead for good, no.

      He either Wargs into Ghost (making the dire wolfs name even more fitting).

      Or Mel brings him back.

      Or both.

      There is no way I believe Jon Snow is dead. No freaking way.

      D&D are doing a HUGE cover-up and they will continue to do so.

      The authenticity and integrity of the finale’s last scene most be kept in tact at all costs.

      Plus they won’t spoil anything for GRRM book readers by ending in the same manner.

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    35. Valaquen,

      Look, I want the 6th book to come out as much as anybody here, but lets face it GRRM is not going to be finished before the series ends. The show has started to “spoil” the books already and it will continue to do so.

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    36. Tormund’s Woman:
      flintwielder,

      HAH! Isn’t there a thread that needs a Winds update somewhere?! For shame, flintwielder, for shame…

      #ItWillHappen

      So happy that Mr. Martin is cutting down his priorities to about 7 different activities plus travel. Enough time for that comfy chair in his library tower, cranking up that Wordstar.

      #Wrapping ItUpAlready

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    37. Pigeon,

      you just have to add a few items and I think you pretty much have it…

      – Arya stumbles into things; montage using Rocky IV soundtrack; now she is a deadly assassin and gets her eyes back.
      – Ramsay goes on a “hunt” and OMG HE’S HUNTING SANSA AND THEON, WHO ARE NOT TRADITIONAL GAME ANIMALS AT ALL, BUT ACTUALLY HUMAN PEOPLE!!!!
      – Sam makes it to Oldtown, where he has trouble fitting in and befriends an old maester and is conflicted re: his duties at the citadel vs. worrying about Gilly.

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    38. Valaquen: They’re giving Winds of Winter a chance before anything is spoiled. So, yeah yeah, he’s dead… for now.

      If so, then this really pisses me off. GRRM’s turgid writing is irritating enough. However, if he sells the rights to the series and then is so damn slow in finishing it that it has negative effects on the TV series, then this goes beyond laziness: it’s flatly unethical.

      I write a lot. You complete writings by not not writing. It might sound over simplistic, but it isn’t.

      RosanaZugey: I think Sam will learn how to defeat them

      It would be a really bad plot device if Sam looks up how to defeat them. That’s sort of the way some Harry Potter fans figured that he had to go back to Hogwarts in his final year: after all, where else would he learn the powerful spells to defeat Voldemort? (Because so many people seemed to have spells to defeat Voldemort….)

      What is going to be important will be understanding what the White Walkers represent. They are not “evil.” It will be equally important (I think) to understand what Rh’llor means. At some point, this is going to be much more like understanding what a scar really is than tossing a ring into a volcano.

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    39. Here Be Dragons,

      Dany’s death could be much worse than Jon’s.Same goes for Tyrion.Those two characters are the most popular ones on the show.Jon is a pretty popular character,but hypothetically show would survive without him.Same can’t be said about those two.

      Game of Thrones without Dinklage or Emilia is like Breaking Bad without Bryan Cranston and Aaron Paul.Dynamic duo.

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    40. Geralt of Rivia,

      I think that changed with season 5. People seemed to finally be back to loving Jon like they did in season 1, when he was every bit as popular as Daenerys,Tyrion, and Ned.

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    41. flintwielder,

      Counted them, did you?! :p It may still happen. Don’t count him out. Martin may still surprise you (and by that I don’t mean by his choice of cheese or pizza). And when it does I’ll update that damn thread myself!

      #NotOverYet

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    42. Wanna convince me that you’re not coming back, Kit? Shave your head.

      Haircutgate 2015: And now my watch begins.

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    43. Geralt of Rivia,

      Sorry Geralt… Disagree!

      I Fully expect one of George’s bittersweet endings to this series to be the death of Dany (but not until she nears or becomes ruler on the Iron Throne) but killing off Jon who is the epitome of Ice & Fire would be Insufferable.

      “Promise me Ned” :p

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    44. I really, really don’t think Jon is totally dead, but it seems more likely he’s dead than come back at the end of next season/season 7 or warging into Ghost. The former maybe would make sense if Mel was on the way or something and not actually there but there’s no possible way to explain both her and the Watch just letting his body sit around for 8+ episodes. The Ghost idea would just be flat out awful.

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    45. I’m really starting to hate Brienne.

      This woman fails at protecting anybody and still manages to come up smelling of roses.

      First she kills The Hound and now Stannis; who’s next? Bronn? Just to make it *all* of my favourite characters.

      Yes, Stannis killed his daughter and I realise that it’s a bad thing, but as a character development I thought it was a good turn. Thinking about Brienne killing Stannis before this episode just seemed too obvious, and GoT likes to throw surprises our way, so I thought it wouldn’t happen – but this is useless Brienne, who can kill anyone but protect nobody.

      And finally, they don’t even show us Stannis die – JUST TO FUCK WITH US.

      I hope Ramsay flays her, the “dumb bitch”.

      God I miss The Hound.

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    46. King DBC,

      Last years finale was better. This finale left everything on cliffhangers , and if Jon really ain’t on season 6 , than maybe that season can be worse than this season. That was by far the worst season of thrones

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    47. Brienes the tuffest dude in all the seven kingdoms next years she’s gonna arm wrestle the moutain and win

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    48. Without the wall storyline , this season would have been widely criticized as the worst season . Nothing happened marge and Loras r in jail, the show runners r simplifying a complex story and the complexity of it is what makes it the best show on tv. There fucking up the end of the story , I’m disappointed from the bottom of my heart . I got the seasons bein 4-3-1-2-5 and 2 to me has way better charector development , storytelling , it beats season 5 in every way except special effects

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    49. Roocat,

      Davos is one of the characters from whose point of view we see the storyline in the books. I see no logical reason for him not returning season 6.

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    50. But why would Kit Harrington be spoiling this so lightly?

      It is a major cliffhanger from the books, and it seems necessary that the book and the show will have to go the same direction on this particular character. So if he is really saying, that Jon Snow is definetively dead, he is spoiling the book badly.

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    51. As a Doctor Who and Sherlock fan, I am telling you, they are all lying. Trust none of them.

      I have waited two years, not for Sherlock to return from death, but to find out how he returned.

      I have lived through Rory Williams dying and returning some 3-4 times. I have seen Steven Moffat proclaiming a certain character dead and gone only for him to reappear in the next season cliffhanger

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    52. Piotr:
      Roocat,

      Davos is one of the characters from whose point of view we see the storyline in the books. I see no logical reason for him not returning season 6.

      Melisandre is also a POV starting in book 5, and she’s actually at the Wall in both book and show. Davos is off somewhere looking for Rickon in the book, isn’t he?

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    53. Main reason I read the books was Jon so…I refused to believe he was really dead. But like Lex now I’m starting to worry hehe

      I guess we’ll see

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    54. I’m oddly OK with Jon being gone for real. I’m no longer shocked by anything, I guess. This is the story. Take it all, or take nothing.

      The situation with Jon reminds me of Star Trek Into Darkness and the death scene with Kirk. It was presented as an actual death, no cheating about it, until Bones discovered that Khan’s super-DNA could revive Kirk. Kirk’s body was put into a cryogenic tube until the blood transfer could be done.

      It’s possible

      Jon’s body could be put into the ice cells. Melisandre will revive Jon, but die in the process, mirroring Beric dying while reviving Catelyn. Her sacrifice could be atonement for what happened to the Baratheons, but the result won’t be what we think or expect. Jon could end up being Lord Stoneheart, an agent of the Dark Side. I think Bloodraven is a Dark Side agent too.

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    55. Jon has to be resurrected by Melissandre. No way he’s dead and gone. Why would GRRM ask D&D “Who is Jon’s mother?” when he was deciding if he would give them the rights to make the show, if Jon wasn’t THE most important character in the whole story. He still has much much much to do, and the show is only just now starting to peek into the past of Lyanna, Ned, Benjen, etc., which will lead to the point of Jon’s parentage. What would the point be if Jon’s dead?

      Mel will have to revive Jon right away. Past instances of resurrection seem to take place right away at the time of the death.

      They are doing their best to be secretive. I wouldn’t be surprised if they staged a whole farewell party with a cake HOPING it would leak out to the public.

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    56. We’ve been ignoring the obvious. As Ramsey said, “if you think this is going to end well, you haven’t been paying attention.”

      The Night King is going to win!

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    57. I am wondering alot about Stannis. Did the show just get rid of him, because there wasnt room for Davos and Stannis running separate plots next season? I feel it might not be the same end for Stannis in the books.

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    58. Flora Linden: The situation with Jon reminds me of Star Trek Into Darkness and the death scene with Kirk. It was presented as an actual death, no cheating about it, until Bones discovered that Khan’s super-DNA could revive Kirk. Kirk’s body was put into a cryogenic tube until the blood transfer could be done.

      Let’s not forget the ending of Wrath of Khan. I seem to recall an actual Spock death.

      Not that I won’t accept it if in fact Jon’s permanently gone from the story. But for the moment, I remain unconvinced. 😉

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    59. You know who is a great actor? Alexander Siddig.

      I do not understand why you would hire Siddig and give him eight minutes of screen time and basically one scene of any importance. I’m not even sure why you’d fly him to Spain and pay his hotel bill and feed him three times a day.

      We will be talking about how bad the Dorne stuff turned out for years. And, unlike most Sullied fans, I do not believe book Dorne is all that and a bag of chips.

      The Dorne stuff in the books is basically a) one hot badass woman (Arianne) and b) one bad-ass speech (Viper-Grass) in search of a coherent plot. Without getting too into spoilers, let me just say that OTHER characters in the books comment on how stupid Doran’s plan is.

      AND SOMEHOW THE SHOW WAS WORSE!!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    60. Btw , were are all those people that said Stannis had NO OTHER CHOICE?? Hahaha and ha. Killing your daughter, for NOTHING. Deluded fans, deluded Stannis.

      #TeamStannis

        Quote  Reply

    61. Simeon,

      Agreed which is why I think that there’s no way they will just “avoid” the wall for season 6. There are too many loose ends and too many important characters sitting there to do that which to me means they cannot ignore John and then have him come back in season 7.

      Now like someone else suggested, it could be they filmed something this season that goes into next season so that technically, Kit isn’t filming season 6 ….

        Quote  Reply

    62. taim:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      that is ridicolous, never compare BB with this.

      And EC is not a great actress. The only great actor on the show atm is Peter Dinklage.

      Oh please, this commentary thread isn’t the TV police. Of course you are free to like or dislike any show you wish or prefer one show over another, or to not take to an actor/actress for that matter but please concede the same freedom to like or dislike programmes/actors to other people. I don’t have a problem with Emilia Clarke though I know some people don’t like her (as an actress). She’s RELATIVELY early in her career so it’s hard to say whether she will be deemed “great” or otherwise in the long term. I haven’t seen “Breaking Bad” so I can’t judge it though I have heard good reports. The only other thing I’ve seen Peter Dinklage in besides GoT is the 2005 version of “Lassie”; he cut the mustard in that I will admit. Like I say, you don’t have to like what I like (or anybody else likes) but please don’t try to be the TV police.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Here Be Dragons,

      Maybe they should make a show about being a docter in westeros . Qyburn howser . They better bring all the missing charectors that we’re good back , I’m one more asshole change from boycotting the whole show forever and just a few months ago I was calling this the greatest fantasy story of our generation . They fcked this season up something terrible

        Quote  Reply

    64. Simeon,

      Exactly. Original Spock too – there was a way for him to come back. I think Jon will return, but it may be a case of “be careful what you wish for.” And I’m OK if Jon is actually dead and doesn’t return, either.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Guys, this has been debated for long enough (5 years or so now), what about the most important question? How do Sam and Gilly expect to make it unmolested all the way to Oldtown through war torn Westeros by themselves, in a wagon?

        Quote  Reply

    66. weirwoodtreehugger:
      The comments I’ve seen on other sites seem to agree with a lot of us here.D&D, Kit, and the rest are selling the “Jon is really dead” so hard and fast that it sounds likethey are trying way too hard and it comes off as fake.

      You know, this sort of talk sounds awfully familiar. Do you remember the fannish reaction when Catelyn was offed?

      “Oh, of COURSE D&D would say that she’s gone for good, they don’t want to RUIN THE SURPRISE…”
      “Michelle Fairley is LYING THROUGH HER TEETH, she’s COMING BACK IN STYLE, I’m telling you…”
      “This is all just smoke and mirrors, TRUST ME, when Stoneheart shows up you’ll see this was all just an elaborate charade for the press…”
      “BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT…”

      I took the cast and crew members at their word when it came to Michelle Fairley. I’ll take them at their word when it comes to Kit. Maybe you should do the same.

        Quote  Reply

    67. hexonx: Guys, this has been debated for long enough (5 years or so now), what about the most important question? How do Sam and Gilly expect to make it unmolested all the way to Oldtown through war torn Westeros by themselves, in a wagon?

      By ship from Eastwatch, most likely.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Tormund’s Woman:
      flintwielder,

      Counted them, did you?! :p It may still happen. Don’t count him out. Martin may still surprise you (and by that I don’t mean by his choice of cheese or pizza). And when it does I’ll update that damn thread myself!

      #NotOverYet

      Ye know I don´t totally disagree with you, sweets. Anything is possible. I am just evaluating from the 10-yr precedent we have re GRRM´s writing patterns. Anne Groell has 168 pages of aDwD-leftovers to process; the rest is up for speculation. If tWoW is to be published up to the start of S6, GRRM has to deliver the full manuscript by Xmas. Unless they want to put out an unedited, sprawling mess (Oops, they did that with aDwD already, didn´t they ? And it still took them 4 months to roll that tome out).

      Considering his 1st drafts are around 1500 pages long, GRRM has to cough up another 1300. Even if he has half of that stashed away in his tower, there are another 600-700 to go. In 6 months. With little to no chance to rewrite anything, as he generally is wont to do. And only writing on his Wordstar when he is at home not doing anything else. And damn – that NFL season around the corner. Really hope Gang Green sinks quickly this year; imagine GRRM being distracted by playoffs. Etc., etc., etc..

      All that said, a completely different question: Even if he succeeds, what is the quality of the tome going to be ? Considering rushed writing, no rewriting.

      Questions, questions, questions…

        Quote  Reply

    69. So there’s actually a chance that GRRM can tell more of his story before DnD do…

      What would you do if GRRM completes his book for publishing in like January 2016…and they say it will be on the shelves in July…just after season 6 of GOT ends?

      tough

        Quote  Reply

    70. Besides Hardhome and kill the boy I can’t rate any other episode higher than 8.5 outa 10 season 4 I had like 1 episode I felt was worse than an 8.5. Seriously season 2 is better than season 5 . The storytelling turned into wushu washy clunky bullshit I can not wait to here what ozzy man
      Has to say about this trash

        Quote  Reply

    71. There has to be a time in TV show history where a scheme like this took place to throw people off the trail, giving them false information in an attempt to cover-up the actual truth until the next season.

        Quote  Reply

    72. WorfWWorfington:
      You know who is a great actor? Alexander Siddig.

      I do not understand why you would hire Siddig and give him eight minutes of screen time and basically one scene of any importance.I’m not even sure why you’d fly him to Spain and pay his hotel bill and feed him three times a day.

      We will be talking about how bad the Dorne stuff turned out for years. And, unlike most Sullied fans, I do not believe book Dorne is all that and a bag of chips.

      The Dorne stuff in the books is basically a) one hot badass woman (Arianne) and b) one bad-ass speech (Viper-Grass) in search of a coherent plot. Without getting too into spoilers, let me just say that OTHER characters in the books comment on how stupid Doran’s plan is.

      AND SOMEHOW THE SHOW WAS WORSE!!!!!

      You could say the same about Brienne’s storyline…meh in the books, worse in the show.

      And what about Cersei’s walk of shame….was like “ok, well, whatever”

      And Tryrion ruling Mereen? If they didn’t want Dany+Hizdahr, imagine a foreign Dwarf…I mean only by military force that could be achieved, and after lots of innocents dying. Didn’t seem right

      Besides that I think this season main issue was pacing .

        Quote  Reply

    73. taim: The only great actor on the show atm is Peter Dinklage.

      GoT has one of the best if not the best ensembles of actors/actresses in TV and film in general including such fine names as Lena Headey, Jonathan Pryce, Diana Rigg etc. Sorry, but your comment is ridiculous.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Francoise:
      What was Jon’s last word?

      LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 🙂

      Where is Jon Snow´s direwolf … his “white shadow” sent to him by the old gods, a part of him …..

      The one that protects Sam and Gilly but not his master …. seriously … :/

        Quote  Reply

    75. rhymeswithweak:
      So there’s actually a chance that GRRM can tell more of his story before DnD do…

      What would you do if GRRM completes his book for publishing in like January 2016…and they say it will be on the shelves in July…just after season 6 of GOT ends?

      tough

      I would (try) to wait. But if it can’t be published before I don’t think it will be published just after

      Big Al: Thinking about Brienne killing Stannis before this episode just seemed too obvious, and GoT likes to throw surprises our way, so I thought it wouldn’t happen

      And what are the chances that Stannis survives that first clash in real life? None, really. So all his soldiers are dead and he, who was at the forefront, is alive just because they need Brienne to kill him?? Poor, poor storytelling

        Quote  Reply

    76. Season 7: All Sandor, all the time. With guest appearances by Oberyn, Tormund, Tyrion, and Arya, for the first annual ‘Death Stare Sarcastathon’ convention. Sponsered by KFC.

      (with a special appearance by The Ambiguous Trio – Hodor, Grey Worm, Jaqen)

        Quote  Reply

    77. Hoyti Voñ Totiy: LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

      Where is Jon Snow´s direwolf … his “white shadow” sent to him by the old gods, a part of him …..

      The one that protects Sam and Gilly but not his master …. seriously … :/

      As Hodor’s Bastard said, where is all the mysticism of the North??

        Quote  Reply

    78. Flora Linden:

      Melisandre will revive Jon, but die in the process, mirroring Beric dying while reviving Catelyn. Her sacrifice could be atonement for what happened to the Baratheons…

      Any scenario where the Red Woman dies sounds good to me, but I’d particularly love it if she were burned alive at the stake, just like her many victims.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Pau,

      And what are the chances that Stannis survives that first clash in real life? None, really. So all his soldiers are dead and he, who was at the forefront, is alive just because they need Brienne to kill him?? Poor, poor storytelling

      One can argue that be it as it may, Stannis turned into a monster blinded by the Red Witch and his ambition, he still was an amazing warrior. It doesn’t take a big imagination to consider maybe he slayed all the enemy soldiers within range of sight because he’s a badass, you saw him at Blackwater.

      Little gaps in reality like this don’t bother me, it can easily be rationalized off as simply…

      Stannis is still a badass warrior that those foot grunts couldn’t take down.

      Now the Watergardens, Jamie and Bronn just walking right up in broad daylight to the PRINCE and at the same time the SS arriving. Somehow they all penetrated security… And without even knowing of each other arrived at the same time. Then a fight ensues and THEN, FINALLY 50 guards out of nowhere arrive…

      Those kind of unrealistic things are what bother me.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Pau,

      I think show Brienne and book Brienne are about equal. But I also am one of the few Sullied who think the LSH concept is fucking stupid.

      (I watched through Season 3 without the books, then I read all of them before Season 4 started and barely made it through the fetid swamp slog that is Book 5 before Season 4 started, so maybe I’m Side Sullied here.)

      As for the Walk of Shame, that did almost every single thing I imagined. The only thing I would have liked is for Cersei to get to say the “my little king” routine. That was a stunning piece of filmmaking.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Kit Harrington is being *way* too cool about this for him to be truly gone-gone from the show. Compare his attitude to, say Ian Beattie, or Rose Leslie a few seasons ago. Even Ian McElhinney was way more sad about leaving than Kit appears to be.

      I’m calling shenanigans, he’ll be back.

      (And he explicitly said he’s not cutting his hair–“for other roles.” Right.)

        Quote  Reply

    82. Folks, Jon’s dead in the books, and he’s dead on the show. There was no “cliffhanger” in the books. He gets stabbed, and the last thing he feels is the coldness of death. It’s not some White Walker coldness. He feels cold because blood is flowing out of him, and he’s about to die. Of course his POV ends before he actually dies, because he would have no view of his own death. He doesn’t warg into Ghost. He just dies.

      Face it. He’s truly, actually dead.

        Quote  Reply

    83. ‘My name is Jon Snow. For five years I was stranded on the Wall with only one goal – survive. Now I will fulfill my father’s dying wish – to become the Prince that was Promised and bring down those who are poisoning my realm. To do this, I must become someone else. I must become something else.’

        Quote  Reply

    84. Sword of the Morning

      Face it. He’s truly, actually dead.

      As was Beric Dondarrion, half a dozen times, at least. And Catelyn Stark.

      When I first read that last chapter of Jon’s, many years ago, I thought he wasn’t dead, it was just a flesh wound or two, and he’ll be “healed” rather than resurrected by Mel… But the more I’ve read it, and now with this in the show and the interviews, I’m convinced he will truly die… but be resurrected.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Someone explain to me just how Sansa and Theon are supposed to survive that jump?

      Really, that is my only question about the finale.

        Quote  Reply

    86. I’m surprised by all the comments about this being a terrible season. Sure, it had its flaws but I think the great moments outweigh them in the end. Stannis (and the actor portraying him) was phenomenal this season. There were so many sweet, poignant moments like Daenerys taking Jorah’s hand or Dany & Missandei clutching hands when death was all but certain. Cersei’s walk of shame made me actually feel bad for her even though I think she deserved some kind of punishment for all the awful things she’s done. Lena Headey’s facial reactions alone had me mesmerized and admittedly a little foggy-eyed. I’ll be crossing my fingers for her come Emmy time.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Arthur,

      Of course there’s a possibility that he’ll be resurrected. Just like anyone who dies in the books.

      But I’m specifically addressing the complaints that the Kit and D&D are somehow spoiling the books by insisting that Jon is dead. The adapted scene for the show is the same exact result as in the books. In the books, Jon is currently dead, just like on the show.

      There’s a very real possibility that it’s truly over for Jon. That he’s currently dead, and he always will be dead. That he’s not coming back. It’s time for the fandom to realize that it’s actually the most likely scenario, because, you know, he’s dead.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Arthur:
      Pau,

      One can argue that be it as it may, Stannis turned into a monster blinded by the Red Witch and his ambition, he still was an amazing warrior.It doesn’t take a big imagination to consider maybe he slayed all the enemy soldiers within range of sight because he’s a badass, you saw him at Blackwater.

      Little gaps in reality like this don’t bother me, it can easily be rationalized off as simply…

      Stannis is still a badass warrior that those foot grunts couldn’t take down.

      Now the Watergardens, Jamie and Bronn just walking right up in broad daylight to the PRINCE and at the same time the SS arriving.Somehow they all penetrated security… And without even knowing of each other arrived at the same time.Then a fight ensues and THEN, FINALLY 50 guards out of nowhere arrive…

      Those kind of unrealistic things are what bother me.

      Come on man, agreat strategist yes, but an amazing warrior? And even then maybe in a kung-fu movie, but in reality there’s little he could do againts a horse charge, specially because the Boltons would look for him and make sure he was dead.
      He only survived because Brienne had to kill him a bit later.

        Quote  Reply

    89. SPOILER TAGS DON’T WORK FOR ME SO SCROLL DOWN IF UNSULLIED

      I think Jon will return, with Melisandre conveniently arriving at the Wall (and meeting Thoros and Beric in S3) and Ghost being shown in E7 to let people know that he exists. Kit will probably return in Season 6 in the same way as Charles Dance returned in this season, to ‘play a corpse’, but he’ll have some other scenes outside as well, because he’s, well, not dead, and most of his other scenes will be interior. Ta-dah! Kit has a plausible reason to be spotted on set, and Jon will return.

        Quote  Reply

    90. There is a vacancy that was not filled before, during or after the Julius Caesar moment……..Et tu, Olly? Where was the wolf? When Robb got bushwhacked Grey Wind was absolutely crazed trying to get to him, when Lady was euthanized by Ned the wolves (Summer and Shaggy dog) howled loudly and mournfully and Bran shot upright out of a coma. So now Kit, Dan and Dave have silenced Ghost? Not a chance. Ghost protected Sam for God’s sake and I don’t think it was because Sam is the one that fed him.
      What the hell do the assassins tell the 25 other Night’s Watch brothers? The wildlings did it? As scared as the Night’s Watch brothers were at Hardhome they would’ve told somebody when they got back to Castle Black, don’t ya think?
      What if Jon rises from the funeral pyre like Dany did? Think Thorne and Marsh would shit their pants? Olly would just keel over dead.
      The suggestion that Jon’s resurrection was filmed this year as to not cause any undo attention to season 6 filming was a good call. I mean, it’s not like they would have to gather all the characters…….they were all right there.
      I whole heartedly agree that Kit would have to shave his head for me to believe he is truly out of Thrones.
      And no parting gift for Kit? He said he had his eye on Longclaw…..
      No one, not even Kit’s close friend John Bradley (Sam), talking about the loss they will feel with him gone since he WAS SUCH A FUCKING HUGE PART OF THE STORY.
      Writers and Kit are protesting too much- that loud a noise is definitely meant to deflect. Ya know when you lie about something and your Mom catches and confronts you? Remember those excuses and deflections??? This kinda sounds like that. Uh, really dead, well, not completely maybe. Won’t be back next season………but there is a dream coming.
      Whatever won’t this all sound silly if Kit shows up bald as a billiard ball?

        Quote  Reply

    91. Darkstar,

      It’s possible, but the risk of serious injury and/or death is high. People have survived pretty long falls before IRL though. It was a last ditch effort to escape while Winterfell was in chaos.

      Snow might break some of the fall at least in a fictional world, but it wouldn’t help much in reality. We’ll see.

        Quote  Reply

    92. A friend of mine said he saw Kit on a late night show recently where he menruined shooting again in July. he doesn’t remember which show if someone wants to dig it out. But the best tidbit that he mat nit be dead is.that Kit didn’t get the traditional goodbye gift from D&D.

        Quote  Reply

    93. el: or Dany & Missandei clutching hands when death was all but certain

      Seconds before Dany left her to die there you mean? 😉

      Just trolling a bit hehe. By the way, regarding the walk of shame, it was so obvious it was Leana Headey head CGI’d into someoene elses body that totally threw me out of the moment. I doubt she will get any recognition for that scene.

      Stephen Dillane on the other hand, fucking fantastic.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Darkstar,

      Sansa’s Caillou-like head becomes like a parachute that gently lowers them to the ground.

      Seriously though, Theon is already so wrecked that I hope he doesn’t die. I actually like his redemptive arc.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Robb Snow: Snow drift *might* break some of the fall at least in a fictional world, but it wouldn’t help much in reality. We’ll see.

      It actually does help in reality if it’s deep enough and not too hard packed.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Robb Snow:
      Darkstar,

      Snow might break some of the fall at least in a fictional world, but it wouldn’t help much in reality. We’ll see.

      Why would it be different in the show? There was no magic involved…if things in the show “may” be different because it’s a fictonial world then we are fucked…they could just make anything up

        Quote  Reply

    97. To address the people saying Jon will skip season 6 (and TWOW) and appear in season 7 (and ADOS). Please answer me this… unless they don’t show the wall at all, what the hell are they doing with Jon’s body? BURNING IT. Like they do all bodies up there so they don’t turn into wights. Jon is either resurrected episode 1 of season 6 or he’s actually dead and not coming back. Unless you really think they won’t show Mel/Davos/the Wall for an entire season, and then come back and Jon is already alive…

        Quote  Reply

    98. Simeon: It actually does help in reality if it’s deep enough and not too hard packed.

      Like very, very, very, deep you mean…those walls were very high. Why jump? Get a rope or something. Or better yet, use a door. And why did Myranda threaten Sansa with a Bow? and with Reek a la walking dead by his side? That whole scene was like, wtf…

        Quote  Reply

    99. Looper: Please answer me this… unless they don’t show the wall at all, what the hell are they doing with Jon’s body? BURNING IT. Like they do all bodies up there so they don’t turn into wights. Jon is either resurrected episode 1 of season 6 or he’s actually dead and not coming back. Unless you really think they won’t show Mel/Davos/the Wall for an entire season, and then come back and Jon is already alive…

      Pretty much this. I think Melisandre’s as good as guaranteed to make the attempt since she’s at the Wall now and learned it was possible in season 3. I wonder if we’ll get the ultimate tease, however: she attempts to resurrect Jon and fails…! That might be another internet breaking moment right there.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Sam:
      SPOILER TAGS DON’T WORK FOR ME SO SCROLL DOWN IF UNSULLIED

      I think Jon will return, with Melisandre conveniently arriving at the Wall (and meeting Thoros and Beric in S3) and Ghost being shown in E7 to let people know that he exists. Kit will probably return in Season 6 in the same way as Charles Dance returned in this season, to ‘play a corpse’, but he’ll have some other scenes outside as well, because he’s, well, not dead, and most of his other scenes will be interior. Ta-dah! Kit has a plausible reason to be spotted on set, and Jon will return.

      Why would unsullied have to skip this post? 😛

      hexonx:
      Guys, this has been debated for long enough (5 years or so now), what about the most important question?How do Sam and Gilly expect to make it unmolested all the way to Oldtown through war torn Westeros by themselves, in a wagon?

      You missed the Jetpacks

      WorfWWorfington:
      Pau,

      I think show Brienne and book Brienne are about equal. But I also am one of the few Sullied who think the LSH concept is fucking stupid.

      (I watched through Season 3 without the books, then I read all of them before Season 4 started and barely made it through the fetid swamp slog that is Book 5 before Season 4 started, so maybe I’m Side Sullied here.)

      As for the Walk of Shame, that did almost every single thing I imagined. The only thing I would have liked is for Cersei to get to say the “my little king” routine.That was a stunning piece of filmmaking.

      I don’t like LSH either.

      Regarding the Walk of Shame I was totally out of immersion when I realized it was Lena Headey’s head glued into an actress 20 years younger

        Quote  Reply

    101. So this post is going to drift into heavy spoiler territory that even book readers may want to unsee, but at the same time, remembering this particular bit of information has very much strengthened my resolve to keep the faith, and so I’m hoping that this will do the same for others.

      Earlier this year, Variety (and cinemablend.com) published an article that claimed to be reporting information from a 1993 outline of A Song of Ice and Fire that George used to pitch the series to his publisher. There are a ton of uber-spoilers or potential spoilers from that outline, but there are also things that absolutely cannot still be true and things that very likely are not still true, so George has significantly altered the series in the last 22 years, which we already knew. However, the part that really rang true for me were the five POV characters who George intended to survive to at least the end of the series. Before even looking to see who these characters were, I tried to guess who they should be, and I was five for five. These felt like fundamental characters from the beginning. And who do you think was one of these five survivors? Of course he was! Martin says these five will be “growing from children to adults and changing themselves and the world in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters….”

      Feel free to Google the article, but I must caution all who are the least bit squeamish about spoilers. There is a ton of ginormous potential spoilers in this article besides the one that Jon Snow survives. And for that reason, I definitely won’t link to it.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Ser Florian:
      Darkstar,

      Snow drifts to cushion their fall.

      ,
      Yes, like in the books with Theon and Jeyne, only there weren’t deep drifts around Winterfell. Or I didn’t see any.

      I just want it to be plausible in the show. If you sunk into a snow drift so deep that it would save you, how the hell would you get out?

        Quote  Reply

    103. *somewhere in the netherworld*

      Jon: “Sigh…..”

      Mance: “WHOA….shit! Hey Jon.”

      Jon: “Hey Mance. Yeah, I know, who knew, right?”

      Mance: “Damn. Red Woman get you too? Thanks for the arrow, by the way. That was decent of you.”

      Jon: “Hard way to die….no problem. No, it was that damn Thorne, in my side. And that fookin’ Olly kid.”

      Mance: “Little shit. Look on the bright side though.”

      Jon: “What’s that, then? Geez, I’ve got 99 problems man!”

      Mance: “Yeah…..but a witch ain’t one!”

      Stannis: “AAAAAA for fuckssakes! All that and I’m a fucking Pez dispenser!!!!”

      Mance/Jon: “Shit, not this guy.”

        Quote  Reply

    104. Darkstar: I just want it to be plausible in the show. If you sunk into a snow drift so deep that it would save you, how the hell would you get out?

      Yeah, that actually is a problem. The way people die in snow avalanches is that the snow on their faces freezes into an ice mask and they suffocate. However, they manage in the books, so it must be possible, right? 😉 (Well, at least it’s not as bad has highly flammable frozen corpses! I suppose people used to snow might be prepared to burrow like mad, so I’ll let it pass.)

      In many ways, I would have preferred if they had snuck out through the crypts. However, visually, the sight of Sansa & Theon jumping hand-in-hand was too powerful to pass up, I suppose.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Ginevra,

      I love reading that letter just to see how things have been changed up from his original vision. Most disturbing for me was that the Arya-Jon fanfic shippers actually had some basis in the original story idea… yikes.

        Quote  Reply

    106. taim,

      You can disagree.It’s perfectly fine.

      Emilia is a great actress,but not in the league of Lena Headey.She nails it everytime she works with CGI and it’s not easy.Even Kit said that.Not to mention her High Valyrian is simply badass and on point.I’m not comparing BB with GoT,it’s just the importance of those two characters.

      Here Be Dragons,

      Jon is really good in S01…S02-03 meh,S04 was good and S05 absolutely fantastic…I think they build up his popularity in order to sell this “death” scene.He was hero at Hardhome and managed to survive White Walkers,but he was betrayed by his own men.Like Jeor.
      Still think that Dany is simply elsewhere in terms of popularity.I’ve asked some of my friends, who couldn’t care less about GoT,but they know who is Khaleesi=that hot chick with dragons. 😀

      Don’t know about Dany.According to prophecy she will bear living child and after that join Khal Drogo and Rhaego in the after life.HotU scene in the show was widely criticized,but I thought it was good.Her death in the end seems given,but I will be pissed is she is going to die in childbirth.I’ve always imagined her death in the blaze of glory.

      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      They did a really good build up with his character.In fact,his storyline was probably my favourite,but I still can not put him on Dany,Tyrion level.I guess,it’s matter of opinion.I love him to bits along with Dany nad Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Robb Snow: Snow might break some of the fall at least in a fictional world, but it wouldn’t help much in reality. We’ll see.

      It would depend on how powdery the snow was. What they really need is light atop a very big and loosely stacked pile of hay! 😀

      Pau: Get a rope or something.

      Whence comes the rope? To what do you tie it? Even if Theon was ever trained to rappell, how does a man with maimed fingers rappel down a rope? How does a woman who never has rappelled in her life do it? (Rappelling is very difficult. It also would be quickly spotted, and probably result in a slightly shorter jump, with or without crossbolts and/or arrows added to one’s anatomy.)

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    108. I don’t buy it either. He’s not done. As much as I dislike Melly Sanders I definitely think she’s going to bring him back.

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    109. Wimsey: It would depend on how powdery the snow was.What they really need is light atop a very big and loosely stacked pile of hay!

      Whence comes the rope?To what do you tie it?Even if Theon was ever trained to rappell, how does a man with maimed fingers rappel down a rope?How does a woman who never has rappelled in her life do it?(Rappelling is very difficult.It also would be quickly spotted, and probably result in a slightly shorter jump, with or without crossbolts and/or arrows added to one’s anatomy.)

      Then use the door lol. Anyway, If you can believe Jon and his Wildlings could CLIMB a 20 times higher wall made of Ice, you can believe the can rappel down Winterfell, even if you know is impossible. At least is acceptable for most people, it falls in the “Acceptable Suspension of Disbelief Realm”

      Can’t remember what happened in the books, but jumping from that height, why? And why did Myranda threaten Sansa?? Made no sense, really. It was painfully obvious that all was so reek, who happened to pass by (what were all 3 doing up there btw??) could save Sansa from an absurd threat, throwing Myranda to kill her so then they could jump to a certain death? ok…

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    110. Pau: I don’t like LSH either.

      LSH hate is as common as dirt around forums like this, this one in particular. You are actually in the uncool majority rather than the cool minority in these parts.

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    111. Chad Brick: LSH hate is as common as dirt around forums like this, this one in particular. You are actually in the uncool majority rather than the cool minority in these parts.

      Yeah, was the other poster who said it was the minority. I have no idea. I didn’t like Catelyn when she was alive, much less when she was dead. In the books, ok, whatever. In the show? No please

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    112. Most of you people are completely nuts.

      The dude is dead. Kits off the show for good. No one is lying.

      Just because there’s some ancient prophecy that might be applicable to Jon if r+l=j (which isn’t revealed as fact yet, as hard as people cling to it). It doesn’t mean it’s true or that he’s invincible or special. Maybe he is a true born son of a secretly polygamously wed dead prince, he’s still a man with a shit ton of holes in him.

      Melisandra being at the wall as she was in the last book doesn’t mean that in twow her role has anything to do with resurrection. Her storyline could go a million different places but everyone assumes it has to be for one express purpose, which is never the case in any book GRRM has written in this series so far. You’re never gonna get the results you want, it’s always a total curveball.

      Now i can see why it’s easy for people to deny climate change! Learn to read and learn to listen!

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    113. Pau: Then use the door lol… Can’t remember what happened in the books, but jumping from that height, why? And why did Myranda threaten Sansa??

      Use the door, or gate, that Ramsay and his men are coming back into the castle through, it being the only one that’s open? Or go to the guards at one of the other gates and ask nicely to be let out? Right. Ok.

      In the books they jumped, from the top of the walls, into snowdrifts (I think from a greater height than in the show, even), because it was a risk, but it was the only chance they had of getting out of there, using the distraction and chaos of the Frey/Manderly troops getting ready to march out of the castle. And Myranda probably threatened Sansa because she’s jealous of her, didn’t like her, and because Sansa was out of her room. Theon probably went to Myranda when he found Sansa missing, as Ramsay was out with his pal Ser Twenti Goodman.

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    114. Sane in Sothroyos,

      We’ve learned to read and listen far better than you it would seem. The possibility of Jon being revived is real and there are multiple signs both in the show and books that this might be the case. Shutting your mind to this possibility is ignorance, not wisdom.

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    115. Ser Florian: Use the door, or gate, that Ramsay and his men are coming back into the castle through, it being the only one that’s open? Or go to the guards at one of the other gates and ask nicely to be let out? Right. Ok.

      In the books they jumped, from the top of the walls, into snowdrifts (I think from a greater height than in the show, even), because it was a risk, but it was the only chance they had of getting out of there, using the distraction and chaos of the Frey/Manderly troops getting ready to march out of the castle. And Myranda probably threatened Sansa because she’s jealous of her, didn’t like her, and because Sansa was out of her room. Theon probably went to Myranda when he found Sansa missing, as Ramsay was out with his pal Ser Twenti Goodman.

      But this is the TV show, if they wanted to make it more beliavable they could find another solution, like use the chaos that was in Winterfell when the army was going out/coming back, or a secret passage Theon or Sansa knew since they lived there, or hide like Osha did…but jump and expect to survive? Without facing certain death otherwise?

      And why did Reek react from Myranda’s thread when he didn’t to Ramsay raping her? Myranda’s thread was ridiculous, out of nowhere, out of character and only there to make Reek react so he could save Sansa and redeem himself. Sorry, I didn’t believe it, at all. But whatever,who cares? Sansa will be back with Littlefinger next season as if nothing had happened

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    116. When that guy tells Stannis half the army is gone you can see in Melisandre’s face that she has just realized that she’s been msitaken all along and that her visions are of Jon instead of Stannis, that’s why she runs back to Castle Black…just in time to ressurect him.

      Think about it as a show-watcher only perspective, a dumb down storyline and it’s the only possible outcome.

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    117. Pau: Can’t remember what happened in the books, but jumping from that height, why? And why did Myranda threaten Sansa?? Made no sense, really.

      Several reasons. One, Myranda is bat-shit crazy. Two, it was good character development: pre-Season 5 Sansa would have screamed like a little girl; Season 5 Sansa almost dares her to do it. Three, it probably was riffing on the books: remember, there Theon & the Wildlings have crossbolts raining down on them. (At least one or two of the Wildlings are killed that way, if I recall.) Amusingly, they did have ropes with them as they had planned it in advance: but the one with the rope stayed back to hold off Ramsay’s guards! (Major “d’oh!” moment….)

      Four, Myranda is bat-shit crazy. 😉

      What I liked about this scene is that it elevated both Theon and Sansa over what we had in the books. Obviously, Sansa was elevated simply by being there – she was completely absent from Dragons and barely present in Crows – but the fact that she did not act like Jeyne Poole (who was sort of like a bad caricature of a Doctor Who companion) when that is what “old Sansa” would have was telling. But it also was true of Theon. Here, he actually takes some initiative: in the book, he’s dragged into it whimpering and cowering all the while.

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    118. Pau,

      They stuck with the book escape, because it was more plausible than them trying to sneak out of a heavily militarised castle in the middle of the day. Theon and Sansa don’t know about the secret exits… Lewin offered to tell Theon about them, but he declined.

      Miranda’s threats were out of character? What character are we talking about? The one that teased Theon sexually before his castration, hunted with bows and dogs another lover of Ramsay’s that she was jealous of, and took every opportunity she could to intimidate Sansa, and let her know what the fate of Ramsay’s other girls was?

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    119. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I’m beginning to get the same feeling when it comes to D&D’s intentions here, and it’s not sitting well with me. As a show-watcher who didn’t start reading the books until Season 3, I have been more likely than not to defend D&D’s creative decisions against the OTT criticism from some of the more zealous book-readers…but cutting Jon Snow altogether from the rest of the show is a damn near indefensible creative decision to me. The show has spent so much time building up the Chekhov’s Gun of a

      Red Priest using the Lord of Light to resurrect the dead

      (not to mention the repeated, not-so-subtle references to

      R+L=J

      this season) that not firing it here would be completely bizarre- PARTICULARLY when they decided not to do so with Lady Stoneheart (don’t tell me

      they’ll eventually use it on Dany Christ

      ; I think I might puke then). Look; if the eventual direction of the show is to build to

      Dany vs. the Night’s King for the fate of Westeros

      , there were A LOT more efficient ways to build to it. Why even include Jon- or the entire freaking Stark family, for that matter- at all if all he was in the story to do was to introduce the White Walkers? That seems wasteful as hell, particularly when it appears that George has a LOT more planned for the character down the line.

      Now, if permanently killing off Jon at this point was GEORGE’S idea, then that’s an ENTIRELY different- and even worse- story. GRRM built up Jon’s importance to the overall story WAY more than D&D ever did (naturally); him deciding to make Jon’s fate at the end of ADwD permanent is sign of a late change in the direction of the story just for the sake of shock value and trolling his fans. It turns much of the preceding 4 books into nothing more than a 20-year April Fools’ Day joke. Both possibilities are a big “screw you” to the fanbase, but George doing it would be the more egregious offense.

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    120. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Save room for me!

      I honestly do not know what to think. Could they really be so audacious as to try to get away with this bald a lie? But could they really be so audacious as to write Jon out of the story? I don’t think even Occam could tell us which explanation is simplest right now!

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    121. Forgive me for being Mr Obvious, and I only read A Dance once, but does not Jon die from being stabbed in the book as well? Seems like D&D nailed a few scenes this episode almost exactly as in the books.

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    122. It’s clever wordplay, they are not lying. Jon Snow is dead.

      What will rise after Melisandre resurrects him will not truly be Jon Snow, as Beric Dondarrion was not truly Beric anymore when Thoros resurrected him.

      However, they just might leave him out of season 6, let’s say Melisandre spirits his body away and they go offscreen for a season. Or Kit is just straight up lying when he says he’s not coming back, I don’t know.

      But all said, I don’t believe for a moment Jon Snow is truly, completely, gone.

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    123. Being a long time reader and watcher of this show I had no idea that I’d react in the way I have at FTW. I think a massive part of me thought they would show some resolution to the scene, one way or the other , rather than leave me hanging on the same cliff I’ve been on for 5 years. With all the “dead is dead” response from the cast today it’s really saddened me, far more than a TV show or series of books should do. I’m 32 for christsake. But at the same time, 10 years of investing in something, waiting patiently for the next installment, investing in stories and characters, has made this world very real to a lot of people and I’m really on a precipice now. I’ll continue reading and watching, but I’m not sure I can be as passionate about it unless they pull something special out of the bag – either in a JS revival or some other way of showing that all this emotional investment has a payoff. I feel like Tyrion, there’s plenty of real things in life that are depressing and miserable, I can do without them in my leisure time.

      I read this 5 years a go, I guess I just thought that he was gravely wounded but maybe Tormund, of Ghost, or someone would turn up and save the day. Jon, for me, is a song of ice and fire. I love the other cast, really, even the horrible cunts (sometimes especially the horrible cunts) but Jons story can’t end here. The stabbing/mutiny makes perfect sense, it was always going to happen because the NW are really a bunch of rag-tag criminals held together by one or two honourable men plus a few highborn third sons with napoleon complexes. But he can’t die here like this, it’s such a fucking insult to anyone who invests in this story.

      Time will tell, I’m not giving up, but right now I feel angry and sad – and not the kind where in a month I’ll think “yeah, what a great show, they really make you care about characters so much that you actually grieve their loss” – but the kind of anger that has me very close to moving on and trying to forget about it all.

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    124. Wimsey,

      Well it wouldn’t be very fun if they said in interviews “Oh he’s totally not dead, Melisandre is gonna resurrect him in Season 6” or even slightly hinted that might be the case. All of the shock and anticipation from the finale would just evaporate right there. They have to play that card as close to the chest as they can, especially since both George and D&D have already left quite a few clues that resurrection is a possible outcome.

      And you know what? Even if he really is gone for good, I’d still watch this show. I’ve been with it for five seasons now already, and I see no cause not to stick with it for for two or three more, Jon or no Jon.

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    125. Ser Florian:
      Pau,

      They stuck with the book escape, because it was more plausible than them trying to sneak out of a heavily militarised castle in the middle of the day. Theon and Sansa don’t know about the secret exits… Lewin offered to tell Theon about them, but he declined.

      Miranda’s threats were out of character? What character are we talking about? The one that teased Theon sexually before his castration, hunted with bows and dogs another lover of Ramsay’s that she was jealous of, and took every opportunity she could to intimidate Sansa, and let her know what the fate of Ramsay’s other girls was?

      But they lived there all their lives! if D&D wanted, show Sansa and show Theon could have known.

      Myranda would never shoot an arrow to Sansa risking killing her. But whatever man, if you believed it, good for you 😉

      Wimsey: Several reasons.One, Myranda is bat-shit crazy.Two, it was good character development: pre-Season 5 Sansa would have screamed like a little girl; Season 5 Sansa almost dares her to do it.Three, it probably was riffing on the books: remember, there Theon & the Wildlings have crossbolts raining down on them.(At least one or two of the Wildlings are killed that way, if I recall.)Amusingly, they did have ropes with them as they had planned it in advance: but the one with the rope stayed back to hold off Ramsay’s guards!(Major “d’oh!” moment….)

      Four, Myranda is bat-shit crazy.

      What I liked about this scene is that it elevated both Theon and Sansa over what we had in the books.Obviously, Sansa was elevated simply by being there – she was completely absent from Dragons andbarely present in Crows – but the fact that she did not act like Jeyne Poole (who was sort of like a bad caricature of a Doctor Who companion) when that is what “old Sansa” would have was telling.But it also was true of Theon.Here, he actually takes some initiative: in the book, he’s dragged into it whimpering and cowering all the while.

      Well, they needed Sansa to flee so he could be re-united with Littlefinger next season and continue with their plot as if nothing had happened. In the book Theon acts like Reek would act. What I don’t believe is that sudden transformation, by a faux Myranda threat, that we all knew was coming because all this Sansa as fArya thing was orchestrated to serve as a Theon redeem arc, as someone predicted long ago.

      Really, I was watching it with no tension at all. The rape scene, on the other hand, really had me on the edge of the sofa. I though Reek could have jumped there, and was the more sad when he didn’t.

      I’m not a book purist that hates what they did to Sansa. As I said, I liked the rape scene. I didn’t like that Littlefinger didn’t know who Ramsey was, and that he married Sansa away when she didn’t need too. But once done, let’s roll with it.

      But I didn’t believe the scene of the finale, not for a second.

      Anyway, it’s such a minor thing…there were way worst things in the finale. Things that worked so well in other seasons just didn’t this one.

      Like Olly and his Stares killing Jon…we all knew it was coming. Man, a bit more subtetly, please?? Or use Edd instead…that would have been shocking. Or show us a conflicted Olly. I don’t know. We all knew Ygritte’s death was coming but I was moved when that happened, that was really well done…even if we knew Olly was going to kill her

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    126. Brotherhood without Banter,

      Omar Little anyone?

      I am not a book reader, so I cant even imagine what you are feeling.
      Its so fucked up cause I haven’t stopped thinking about the JS today.,.. its fucking tv show for God’s sake.
      (it doesn’t help that I was home sick today from work so I have more time to spend on this website and mourn and mourn)

      I really hope his story doesn’t end this way. It actually worries me even more now because I thought book readers would be so sure of his return/rise/resurrection.

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    127. Rygar:
      Forgive me for being Mr Obvious, and I only read A Dance once, but does not Jon die from being stabbed in the book as well?Seems like D&D nailed a few scenes this episode almost exactly as in the books.

      Except the Olly and his Stares part and the Ghost part…but mainly Olly and his stares. So annoying. And this is the part that was supposed to make the scene better than in the books, as you could arguably say Olly made Ygritte’s death better, and the Talisa stabbing made the tv show scene better than the book counterpart. But instead it made it much worse.

      They overplayed the Olly’s hand, in my opinion.

      Also, making Melisandre flee Stannis and run towards Jon makes the ressurection all the more obvious

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    128. Wimsey,

      One can consider the WW means and consequences without discussing their intentions to determine if they are evil or not. The way that the NK showed conscious malevolence toward Jon at Hardhome and they way they have killed and taken the autonomy of all those people to make them wights is MORE than enough proof of “evil” IMO. They could have the best of intentions and it matters not.

      But let’s not miss the forest for the trees here. The ONLY thing that matters is that they will kill every living thing in their path to get wherever they are going. And the Wall was built to stop them from moving further South, so it’s highly probably that’s their goal–to get South of the Wall and it ain’t for the warmer temps. So the question that we should care about is how can mankind can physically and/or magically stop them. I seriously doubt it will be by understanding what they want. It’s not like they’ll sit down to tea and crumpets to negotiate a settlement.

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    129. Pau: That means little though…as you say many things have been altered. And whatever his fate could be in the books, the show could be different

      If he’s brought back in the books I assume it’s not for shits and giggles and will likely play a part in the finale. Since its been said over and over that the show and books will end up at the same place, one assumes whatever happens to Jon book will happen to show Jon. Assumes….

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    130. Deesensfan:
      Brotherhood without Banter,

      Omar Little anyone?

      I am not a book reader, so I cant even imagine what you are feeling.
      Its so fucked up cause I haven’t stopped thinking about the JS today.,.. its fucking tv show for God’s sake.
      (it doesn’t help that I was home sick today from work so I have more time to spend on this website and mourn and mourn)

      I really hope his story doesn’t end this way. It actually worries me even more now because I thought book readers would be so sure of his return/rise/resurrection.

      Don’t worry, he will be back, 100% 😉

      Ravyn: If he’s brought back in the books I assume it’s not for shits and giggles and will likely play a part in the finale. Since its been said over and over that the show and books will end up at the same place, one assumes whatever happens to Jon book will happen to show Jon. Assumes….

      I agree, yes…was just playing devil’s advocate. As I say I’m 100% sure he’ll be raised by Melisandre

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    131. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Who is to say they haven’t already filmed Jons resurrection and that they can show in 601 and then Harrington is not fibbing and he gets a year off

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    132. This is my take on the entire thing:

      First and foremost there is not a single reason to blame anything on GRRM. He doesn’t write the show, even when he did write the one single episode per season, stuff got cut by the showrunners, they have the final say.

      George said about a million times now that the show is the show and the books are the books. How is GRRM a bad storyteller if D&D kill of Jon for good? HE DOES NOT WRITE the show.

      There is a very good possibility that Kit indeed won’t be playing the character anymore because his transformation will be such that they’d rather go with another actor. So Jon Snow will indeed be dead, Kit Harington won’t indeed return to the show ever again. That is no indication the same will happen in the books, however.

      There’s a possibility that they’re just trying to keep Jon’s ressurection and whatever Jon becomes a secret. Saying he’s dead in interviews is going a bit far I think. Especially since this would have concequences for Kit’s future employment. So, I find this theory rather unlikely.

      Lastly, they could be telling the truth and they truly did kill off Jon Snow (DOESN’T MEAN IT HAPPENS IN THE BOOKS) because they’re taking the story into an entirely different direction. Personally, I have my doubts about this. They did foreshadow afterall that Snow’s true parentage is somehow important and thus by definition there is more to be revealed about the character which ought to clarify his role in the entire story. Then there’s the entire Bloodraven thing, he’s very much aware of Jon. I don’t put it pass D&D to kill him off though.

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    133. Pau: didn’t like that Littlefinger didn’t know who Ramsey was, and that he married Sansa away when she didn’t need too.

      Why would LF know anything about Ramsay? One constant point in the book and the show is that the Southerners know very little about what happens in the north. Both book and show indicate that the Boltons are very good at keeping their secrets. Really, the only way that LF would know anything about Ramsay would be if his brothels were getting a lot of customers from the Dreadfort. That seems implausible. LF is very well informed – particular about goings on in Kings Landing – but well informed is well short of omniscient.

      Now, Varys might have heard something. However, even he acknowledges that his northern birds are less reliable, and he loses all of them after Theon takes over Winterfell. And Varys knows a lot of things that Littlefinger doesn’t. (He also had been setting up spy networks all over Westeros for a couple of decades at that point, whereas LF is a new kid on the block.)

      As for Sansa not needing to marry Ramsay, true, she didn’t: unless she wanted to take back Winterfell. If she wants that, then she pretty much has to marry a Bolton. Other than marrying and then offing (or trying to off) them, what other way does she have to retake the Winterfell? It’s not like this world gives most women more than one tool for this sort of thing.

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    134. Wimsey: Why would LF know anything about Ramsay? One constant theme in the book and the show is that the Southerners know very little about what happens in the north. Both book and show indicate that the Boltons are very good at keeping their secrets.

      Well, it was them that said that LF knew in the books but not in the show…why? So LF could marry Sansa off without being out of character, ovbiously.

      Wimsey: As for Sansa not needing to marry Ramsay, true, she didn’t. However, if she wanted to take back Winterfell, then it was her only available course of action. Other than marrying and then offing (or trying to off) the Boltons, what other way does she have to retake the North? It’s not like this world gives most women more than one tool for this sort of thing

      I don’t think she had anything to say on that decission. It was Littlefinger’s idea. If LF didn’t want her married, she would never marry Ramsay. And LF had no need of marrying Sansa off to the Boltons. It only happened on the show so the actress had something to do this season

      Deesensfan:
      Pau,

      I really hope youre right…
      Maybe they are making us think he will come back, but he wont?

      Anyway, you don’t sound too impressed by that notion?

      Reverse psychology? So they are trying too hard to deny it, so we think it’s false, when in truth is true? Lol, that would be truly evil and genious!!

      But I don’t think (or don’t want to think!) they are that evil or that smart 😉

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    135. Dame Pasty: I seriously doubt it will be by understanding what they want. It’s not like they’ll sit down to tea and crumpets to negotiate a settlement.

      This is a novel, not an epic saga. The stories stem entirely from character development, not plot devices. The lead characters are going to need to understand the Walkers and R’hllor and who knows what else. What the Walkers’ (and R’hllor’s) real goals are will be critical when all is done and said.

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    136. Rygar,

      Jon is on a very clear path toward dying, but since the death chapter is from Jon’s point of view, we don’t have confirmation that he did indeed die. And we certainly don’t know that he won’t come back, which is a very significant possibility with the setup in the books. I think that almost all book readers were beyond fine with the show’s presentation of “For the Watch,” but what we really take issue with are the interviews from D&D and Kit that overtly say Jon is really and truly and forever dead, never to rise again. Very few avid readers believed this to be the case before the release of these interviews. Even with these interviews, I imagine that the avid fans are split as to whether to believe them.

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    137. Macharius:
      It’s clever wordplay, they are not lying. Jon Snow is dead.

      Not quite so clever because D&D say, “dead is dead,” and Kit says that he is not coming back next season.

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    138. Pau,

      Again, I hope you are right.
      I was considering reading the books this offseason, but I don’t want my heart broken twice if he is killed off lol…
      SO I am not sure if I will read them.

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    139. Rygar,

      Episode 1 of next season will have Theon and Sansa coming across some rustling in the bushes, stumbling on Sam and Gilly in flagrante delicto… Just so they can work in Sam meeting another Stark on his journeys… they’ve cut out the trip to Braavos and the meeting with Arya, so they’ll try and make it up with that.

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    140. Robb Snow:
      Wimsey,

      Well it wouldn’t be very fun if they said in interviews “Oh he’s totally not dead, Melisandre is gonna resurrect him in Season 6″ or even slightly hinted that might be the case. All of the shock and anticipation from the finale would just evaporate right there. They have to play that card as close to the chest as they can, especially since both George and D&D have already left quite a few clues that resurrection is a possible outcome.

      Not really. They could have been every bit as cagey and circumspect in their answers as GRRM.

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    141. Ginevra,

      Of course they’re going to say that though. They’re not going to say “wait and see” the day it happens, and thus demolish any actual impact from his “death”.

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    142. el:
      I’m surprised by all the comments about this being a terrible season. Sure, it had its flaws but I think the great moments outweigh them in the end. Stannis (and the actor portraying him) was phenomenal this season. There were so many sweet, poignant moments like Daenerys taking Jorah’s hand or Dany & Missandei clutching hands when death was all but certain. Cersei’s walk of shame made me actually feel bad for her even though I think she deserved some kind of punishment for all the awful things she’s done. Lena Headey’s facial reactions alone had me mesmerized and admittedly a little foggy-eyed. I’ll be crossing my fingers for her come Emmy time.

      It’s really just 2 idiots repeating themselves wanting some attention

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    143. Ginevra: Not really.They could have been every bit as cagey and circumspect in their answers as GRRM.

      Count me in with all the others that are baffled and unsure what to think of Jon’s situation.

      On one hand, we have what is in my humble estimation almost incontrovertible book evidence and foreshadowing that Jon will be back.

      On the other hand, it’s exceedingly difficult to disregard the totally upfront and frank interviews by various parties and Kit particularly. He could’ve phrased it any number of ways, yet he decided to either straight up lie and troll — which doesn’t seem to be the show’s MO — or he told the truth. And yet… what’s with all the R+L=J stuff the show threw our way on multiple occasions?

      I can’t make heads or tails of this one.

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    144. I’d believe D&D if not for the fact that the book was written almost 4 years ago; I’m pretty sure if Jon were actually dead, GRRM would have just confirmed it. The only reason he hasn’t confirmed it is he plans on bringing Jon back.

      While Ned’s, Robb’s, and Catelyn’s deaths were shocking and upsetting, none of those characters were prophesied or implied to serve a greater purpose. Stannis was thought to be special by Melisandre, but we learn in the book that she was misinterpreting her visions.

      My belief is that Jon, Tyrion, and Dany are essentially safe until their prophesies are realized. Bran is probably safe until he fulfills his duties. Arya and Sansa I think are probably safe, Arya more than Sansa, but that’s just a hunch.

      Plus, there’s no one else to root for up north with Jon gone. What’s Melisandre going to do at The Wall with Jon for real dead? Latch onto Tormund? Alliser? I don’t think so.

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    145. Wimsey,

      Could not disagree more. GRRM’s books are not run of the mill novels and taken as a whole are much closer to an “epic saga” in the literary sense (granted it’s not Gilgamesh or The Odyssey but still) than anything you can find in modern literature and in particular in the fantasy genre. As far as understanding them…if you mean understanding them so they know how to defeat them? What are there weaknesses, do they have any vulnerabilities, etc…..yes, we agree. If you mean needing to know what their intentions and goals are? I vehemently disagree. I think that’s pointless.

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    146. Rory,

      There are multiple missing scenes. For example, I don’t remember seeing the one from a trailer where Margaery seems to be kneeling or sitting and resting her head against Tommen.

        Quote  Reply

    147. Rygar,

      Nah, I don’t believe that. Even D&D always repeat that little anecdote of theirs about Martin’s final question. There’s no chance all of that is one huge elaborate red herring.

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    148. Mr Fixit:
      Rory,

      There are multiple missing scenes. For example, I don’t remember seeing the one from a trailer where Margaery seems to be kneeling or sitting and resting her head against Tommen.

      That happened when Tommen told Marge that he will try to get her brother back

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    149. Pau,

      Nothing in the books indicates that LF or anyone in the South knew anything abou Ramsay save for his existence. I am not sure that they would have cared, either: most of them seemed to view the Northerners as little better than Wildlings. And how often do the Northeners practically boast that the southroners know little and less about what really happens in the North?

      At any rate, both books and show tell us that neither Varys nor LF know everything that happens even in the South. Given that the Boltons seem intent on keeping secrets feim other northerners, there would be “much and more” about them about which the South is ignorant.

      (Again, Varys would be the better candidate for knowing this as he at least had a spy network in the North. However, he is not in play here.)

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    150. Mr Fixit,

      That would effing suck if it was and if all that was for nothing
      Yes yes I know he made the decisions that led him to his fate, he lead he governed etc etc etc…. but it shouldn’t end there

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    151. Wimsey,

      Yeah, the notion that LF should have known about Ramsay’s extracurricular activities isn’t supported by anything we’ve seen, even if LF had spies in the North. Aside from flaying and displaying the Ironborn at Moat Cailin — who *were* the invading enemy soldiers, after all; what do you think Tywin would do to them — there’s no evidence that Ramsay’s murders and flayings are widely known (or at all) by the time LF arranges the marriage with Roose.

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    152. Dame Pasty,

      Amusingly, I would counter that this is not a run-of-the-mill fantasy! GRRM has stressed more than once that he ascribes to a Faulknereque theory of storytelling. If he is serious, then the Walkers, R’hllor, etc. should create some internal conflict(s) for the protagonists (particularly Daeny and [I still hope!] Jon).

      Hopefully we will know one way or the other some day. Oddly, I am less sanguine about that than usual today. (The cold clinical robot on my right shoulder says that they cannot waste so much development on a charscter like Jon and not bring him back: but the cold clinical robot on my left shoulder suggests that I just want that to be true, leaving me sad and confused.)

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    153. Dram,

      Yeah I was thinking about it after I posted that. It’s very possible they’ll put him on the pyre, but his body doesn’t burn. He might revive while on the pyre, or perhaps when Mel sees he hasn’t burned she’ll go and say the words and Jon will come back then. This would further connect him to R + L = J and Azor Ahai so I think what you say is worth consideration.

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    154. Mr Fixit,

      I suspect that if Tywin had known about Ramsay, then he would have not let Tommen legitimize Ramsay. However, I also would bet that it would not occur to Tywin that a bastard with a commoner mother could ever be a real threat.

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    155. He’s technically dead so can leave the watch. Mel will res him. He’ll tussle with the Boltons then rally the north to defend against the WW. Job done!

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    156. Aryamad:
      I don’t buy it either. He’s not done. As much as I dislike Melly Sanders I definitely think she’s going to bring him back.

      I fall into the camp of taking Kit and the producers at their word. That said, I can’t fathom a single reason why they would rush her back to The Wall. What other purpose does she serve???

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    157. flintwielder: Poor child…

      It’s really D&D who are giving GRRM the credit; I doubt we’ll see that book soon.

      The show totally set up Jon’s resurrection: Mel is at the Wall, with no Azor to support and aided with some knowledge of Red God necromancy. She’ll have some faith issues early next season, will look into a fire and somehow resurrect Jon, mirroring Thoros’ doubt and subsequent religious rebirth ala Beric. There was a lot of table setting in this episode for the next season — Jorah and Daario on the road, Tyrion and VArys at Meereeen, etc.

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    158. Wimsey:
      Hodor’s Bastard,

      Save room for me!

      I honestly do not know what to think.Could they really be so audacious as to try to get away with this bald a lie?But could they really be so audacious as to write Jon out of the story?I don’t think even Occam could tell us which explanation is simplest right now!

      I think Jon is the reason why LSH had to be cut. They want to play the resurrection card just once, when it really matters to the overall story. And we all know the reasons why Jon matters.
      LSH may be cool, but is just another story of vengeance, it doesn’t need a supernatural element and the role can be replaced by another character. They established the possibility of resurrection with Beric Dondarrion in Season 3 not because of LSH, but because of Jon.

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    159. If Jon Snow is dead dead, then how come there are reports of Ghost being casted multiple times?

      Could it be because they need several wolves this season to pull off the multiple stunts they have in store for Ghost to perform since Jon Snow will warg into Ghost?

      Someone answer me that.

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    160. Marco: I think Jon is the reason why LSH had to be cut. They want to play the resurrection card just once, when it really matters to the overall story. And we all know the reasons why Jon matters.
      LSH may be cool, but is just another story of vengeance, it doesn’t need a supernatural element and the role can be replaced by another character. They established the possibility of resurrection with Beric Dondarrion in Season 3 not because of LSH, but because of Jon.

      This!

      And if he doesn’t come back, what is the point of Melisandre and the whole Lord of Light religion and magic theme? And Davos? Mel and him are at the Wall, what could they do? Sit there and do nothing? No way. Mel’s purpose is to find Azor Ahai and Davos’s purpose is to give his good advices to a king.

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    161. Ravyn: That said, I can’t fathom a single reason why they would rush her back to The Wall. What other purpose does she serve???

      Having read many interviews today, and watched the episode a third time and thought about the story some more, I fall into the camp that Jon is dead, Mel’s rushing back to the Wall is to preserve his body in a chink in the ice…. so that at some date long into the future, the dead Jon can be brought back to life. I doubt Mel will be able to do this, but will somehow know it can be done and therefore preserve his body till that can happen. I think for now, Jon’s story is over. Thinking about it, it was a good arc.

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    162. Laura,

      I’m 99% certain Jon is coming back in show and books… but all this noise has got me like Mel on the morning of battle. The doubt is creeping in. I know I need to be strong… the nights between books (and now show seasons) are dark and full of terrors.

      But you’re right, the interview and denials seem a little too much, we know that Jon still has unanswered questions about him (who’s the mommy?), Mel making her way back to the Wall, Beric in season 3. He’ll be back.

      I just can’t help thinking what if I’m wrong though.

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    163. Okay, here Dan and John could of possibly spilt the beans about Jon’s future.

      Skip to the 22min mark, Kit says “I would like to be a warg” and Dan says “two words for you, season six, season six”

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    164. It didn’t really resonate with me until today how fucking sad I am about Jon. It was never something that I figured would be big with me, much as I like Jon, but now that it’s happened on the screen, just damn. Kit has been so great this year, and it was set up so quickly and almost randomly that it feels even more wrong. The Night’s Watch is getting a rep for mutiny, and burying themselves even deeper at a time they can least afford to.

      But yeah, got a real wave of depression this afternoon over it. Funny how this is the only show that gets me in the emotions.

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    165. Pigeon,

      Jon isn’t dead dude, well he is but not for good.

      Think about it, the show has to go into full PR denial mode to keep the season finale final scene’s integrity and to not spoil anything for GRRM’s book to come out.

      What do we expect them to say? “Don’t worry Jon Snow didn’t really die.”

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    166. I am about 90/10 that Jon will be revived in the books. In the show, it is more like 60/40. We will see. I can’t help but go back to GRRM’s original outline for the series. Yes, I know many of the details have changed, and the story expanded, but Jon was one of the 5 main characters George intended to live through the story, and the final book was slated to center around the Night’s Watch battle against the Others. Also, even in the original outline, Jon was slated to find out a secret about his true parentage late in the series.

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    167. It just makes no sense for Jon to stay dead or to be gone for a while either. There isn’ that much of the show left. They can’t just ignore the Wall, Ghost, Mel, Davos, the Wildings…etc. Why show Mel witnessing and discussing Beric’s Resurrection? Why all the backstory and hints this season about Jon and his possible parents? What of all the attention that Mel was giving Jon?

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    168. Satin:
      Jon is dead but Azor Ahai will rise

      This

      I keep wondering if they (as in Melisandre) are going to do the typical Night’s Watch burning, utter the words “and now his watch has ended” and then boom.

      Thing is under that scenario he rises free of his Night’s Watch vows, and so is free to wear crowns and glory and all that. Between JS and Dany being surrounded by a Khalesar it’s hard to not get the feeling that it is back to Square 1 and Book/Season 1 for the both of them in a sense, but they will go forth very differently.

      Eg I at the very least expect Dany to go Fire + Blood Ghengis Khan style conqueror on everyone and as for Jon, well as soon as he’s free he has a lot of Wildlings who will probably follow him to re-take Winterfell. Who needs siege weapons when you have a Giant…

      Question is whether he raises in the same form, eg could be Shireens death pays for Jon Snows resurrection, alternatively Kit Harington could indeed be gone, and that what raises out of the mix of Stark/Targaryen blood is very different and requires a different actor?

      They’ve been throwing in R+L=J Easter eggs all season so there’s something going on. And let’s not forget the whole Sam to Olly “I’ve been wondering about Jon for years – he always comes back”

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    169. The one thing that is hanging me up in all this is whether there is some type of journalistic integrity that is being bent before these interviews about’not asking certain specific questions’ and if all this (I hope) lying will look badly on them (Kit and D&D) in the future.

      I was one who was certain they wouldn’t leave it as a cliffhanger like this cause it would have been impossible to keep under wraps. Jon is one of, if not THE most popular character on the show for tons of people. That’s why all the outrage and angst. How are they not worried about backlash or losing the trust of the viewers in the future? Does this cliffhanger ultimately cheapen next year’s finale, whatever it may be?

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    170. And like a few others have said here, it’s just sad to hear that ‘Jon is dead’. This isn’t a damn soap opera where his evil twin will appear in the elevator next week because OF COURSE.

      I don’t like it one bit. To me, he IS the story.

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    171. Pigeon,

      Same. I love these books and the show both to bits. Never experienced any other works of fiction quite like them. You get really invested in these characters to the point where you honestly care about them and their welfare, and it just hurts like hell when something bad happens to any of them. And Jon is the most painful “loss” of all so far IMHO.

      While I’m pretty sure he’ll be back, I must admit there’s a creeping doubt. I guess that’s their intention… they’ve shown us one thing and told us another, and we get to wrestle with which is the truth until something concrete comes out telling us for sure. It’s gonna be a hard year.

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    172. First time commentator, long time reader and book reader!

      I honestly am so torn. I was basically 100% convinced of Jon’s resurrection in the books, and as time has passed I think fans and followers have convinced ourselves in the echo chamber. Now because everyone has convinced themselves, everyone just believes that there’s no way Jon is dead. It’s not even a question in fans minds, even though there’s no new evidence to confirm it, just the passage of time making people more sure of what they believe.

      I find the tenor of the interviews somewhat weird. There’s no emotion really, just defiance. “He’s dead, bottom line.” Nothing about how painful or traumatic it was, none of that. For big actors who leave the show, you at least hear some amazing things about them from D & D.

      Yes, killing off Jon forever is in theory is something George could/would do. But Kit is a person who has been one of those at the heart of Game of Thrones, and it’s weird to hear them talking about the fact that he’s gone forever in a way so devoid of emotion.

      Leaving Jon on ice for a season is so unbelievably dumb, unless George intends Melisandre to be unable to resurrect him (again, which I don’t believe). Maybe Jon is out of the books for a long time, and someone resurrects him down the road when his parentage is revealed (while he’s “dead”).

      They won’t recast someone to be “a different Jon Snow,” that’s the kind of contortion and complication that the show has actively avoided doing.

      But obviously, I could be entirely in denial. Would they lie so completely? It’s possible. It’s also possible they decided the resurrection was too “out there” for casual television viewers. And it’s possible that Jon Snow really is actually dead in the books. For all that we believe, it’s just belief and maybe a mix of hope. He really could just be dead.

      All of this stems from whether you believe Jon Snow still has a part to play in the books that is so big that it can’t be erased from the show. When I think that way, I get nervous, because D&D have removed entire storylines that I really thought were going to become important (like Young Griff to Dany).

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    173. Nadia,

      There is plenty of evidence that Jon isn’t dead for good.

      Here is a link from another thread by Robb Snow

      Here, take a look at this. It’s not “proof” but it makes a good case:

      http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/39wwt3/spoilers_all_hints_towards_a_certain_comeback/

      As far as I’m concerned it’s not a matter of if but when. I seriously hope it’s the first thing we see in Season 6.

      Just click that link and there are tons of “breadcrumbs” as GRRM likes to put it, he spreads them around as hints and it’s up to you to pick up on them.

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    174. In one of the interviews at the beginning of the season, Carice von Houten (Melisandre) told that she had “another” big scene with Jon at the end, but we did not get to see it. Could it be that they filmed the “resurrection in advance, and that’s why Kit got his vacations?

      There were some other pictures of scenes that did not happen in the finale, like one with Brienne kneeling with her arms tied in the back in what looked like Winterfell?

      With all of this year’s leaks I am so confused!

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    175. Nadia,

      Yeah but don’t you think that Jon has more significance to the show and the viewers of the show than young griff would have.. Considering that Jon has been there since the beginning, and 90% of the fandom are #housestark etc…
      (I haven’t read the books so not sure who young griff is lol)
      Im so in denial that this is over. or well, I don’t want to believe it.
      It would REALLY ruin the show/story for me. This is nothing like anything else I experienced on the show, not the red wedding, not even Ned.

      GhostCR,

      Hope springs eternal

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    176. Roocat,

      This is a weird comment on that link, any truth to it?

      “An earlier behind-the-scenes report on another death (Shireen Baratheon) mentioned that the death also will happen in Book Six of the GRRM series, in order to *bring back* Jon Snow (who also dies at the end of Book Five). Then, just as I prepared to send a link to my son, the article disappeared — so I think it’s the producers suddenly playing games.”

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    177. Arthur,

      No… I think that’s conflating Benioff or Wise, on the Inside the Episode, saying “when George told us about this…” (thus “confirming” her death in the books), with the fan theories that Shireen’s sacrifice will be towards that end in the books.

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    178. Deesensfan,

      I agree completely that he has a role to play. I’m saying believe them hinges on whether you believe Jon has a big IRREPLACEABLE storyline. One that can’t be chopped up and given to other characters, including other living Starks. I believe he’s irreplaceable, but who knows what D & D decide, or if they think the way he comes back is too out there in the books to work for the show.

      I don’t know, I still believe he’ll be back but I’m pretty heartbroken and surprised that I am.

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    179. Arthur,

      Thoros didn’t need to make any sacrifices to bring Beric back… I don’t know how that will play into the #bringjonback theories
      I am hoping Lady Mel took some notes when she was there.
      When she returned to the Wall she looked completely bummed out… and she looked miserable.
      I expected her to return with a little Lady Mel spice towards Jon. There was none of that…

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    180. Nadia,

      The way Jon gets brought back isn’t important, D&D can adapt the TV show to have him brought back by Mel any way they like, it’s the fact GRRM is bringing him back.

      Obviously this saga has big plans for Jon Snow, D&D will have to bring him back to properly tell the story.

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    181. Moka: This!

      And if he doesn’t come back, what is the point of Melisandre and the whole Lord of Light religion and magic theme? And Davos? Mel and him are at the Wall, what could they do? Sit there and do nothing? No way. Mel’s purpose is to find Azor Ahai and Davos’s purpose is to give his good advices to a king.

      You’re right. Without Jon (and Sam) the Wall is pretty meaningless right now from a dramatic point of view. I mean, I love Davos, and am amused by Mel, but nobody turns into the show to see them and the Night’s Watch, or even Tormund and the Wildlings. If Jon is gone for good, the only plan I can see is that the Wall is overrun by WW early next season, and begin their march towards Winterfell.

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    182. Nadia,

      I see what youre saying. I agree with you. I mean I haven’t read the books but I know we are gonna see some Iron Islands and other people next year. I am hoping this time is not Jon’s time that they use for other useless people! And I cant really see how his story would be passed on to others. Who, Sansa and Theon? No. Brienne? GOD NO. Davos?? Ummm no sorry, he doesn’t equate to Jon.
      Jon in the eyes of fans is on another level…

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    183. Jon and Dany are the MAIN characters of the show.

      IMO Jon is the story of ICE and Dany is the story of FIRE.

      These are the only two characters you KNOW will have a huge role to play in the endgame.

      In a way, Dany died and was reborn from FIRE.

      Jon will now die, and be reborn from ICE.

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    184. Arthur,

      When Dany was reborn from fire, she came back even more powerful with her baby dragons.

      When Jon comes back from ice, I expect in someway (be it warging ability or some kind of linkage to white walker powers) he will also be more powerful.

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    185. It’s important to note that Thoros never cast any kind of spell or did any kind of ritual to bring back Beric. He didn’t even believe in the Lord of Light anymore. He was a broken priest. He just saw his friend get struck down, said a prayer out of tradition… and boom. Beric rose from the dead.

      Interestingly, there’s a broken priestess at the Wall at this very moment. Her faith has been shaken. The man she believed was Azor Ahai reborn is no more. What now? Will R’hllor send her a sign? Will she offer a prayer to the newly deceased Jon Snow?

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    186. Chris Ryan at Grantland’s Watch The Thrones podcast had a good point: Actors lie about their participation all the time, like when Benedict Cumberbatch kept saying he wasn’t Khan in the Star Trek movie.

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    187. Nadia: When I think that way, I get nervous, because D&D have removed entire storylines that I really thought were going to become important (like Young Griff to Dany).

      As others note, Jon is a protagonist, whereas Young Griff is a tertiary character. So, that’s a big difference right there.

      Moreover, don’t count out Young Griff yet: B&W have not brought in tertiary or even secondary characters before they make key contributions to the story or at least to a plot. The Reeds, Oberyn, Euron, Tarly all appeared at least one year later than they “should” have given when they appear in the books, but at the time they actually become relevant. This is just a classic literary vs. visual issue: lots of incidental characters are a necessity for books in the same way that costumes and props are necessities on film, which makes it OK to (say) have Cedric Diggory be a rival Quidditch player in Book 3 and then become an important secondary character in Book 4; however, extraneous casting on TV or movies will detract from a story the same way that overly detailed descriptions of clothing or background details will detract from a story in a book.

      So, as YG did not contribute anything novel or important to this year’s story, there was no way he was going to be in it. However, B&W might deem him necessary for 2016. (That is hypothetical, of course, because I haven’t gotten to read the basics for Winds of Winter! 😡 )

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    188. Ravyn: like when Benedict Cumberbatch kept saying he wasn’t Khan in the Star Trek movie

      There is a big difference. Cumberbatch never denied that he was in the movie: he was denying what the character was. (Even then, it leaked!)

      Harrington is denying being involved in the production. That will be much tougher to hide.

      We did see something akin to this a couple of years ago in the Doctor Who 50th anniversary special. Doctor Who fans were desperately convinced a lot of old characters would return and were doing their scenes in indoor studios, away from prying eyes. However, scrutiny was intense; of the two old-timers that they tried to sneak in, Tom Baker’s very brief appearance (supposedly filmed before dawn with Baker evidently in and out of Wales before the anoraks were out of bed) was kept secret. Paul McGann’s appearance (which actually was for an “extra” prologue video released a week before) got widely leaked despite it being done in less than a day and under what they thought were secure circumstances.

      This is what they are up against if they are trying to play Who Shot JR here.

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    189. Laura: Ok, I am stealing a line from the Doctor Who fandom here but Steven Moffatt (the showrunner for Doctor Who, their version of D&D) bald-face lies to the press and the fans all the time and says he does it to preserve the surprises in the story. …. He will reply with “No, of course not, that would be ridiculous” and then a few months later we find out that we were right all along.

      Hmmm, that was a popular story: but all of the “lies” Moffat told us about who would not be in the 50th Anniversary special turned out to be truths! I guess that he did try to cover up who Missy was. (I was sufficiently jaded by Capaldi’s performance and the horrible stories last year that I wasn’t really paying attention: and, of course, I’m still depressed that Matt Smith has left…. 😥 )

      That written, if they were to have done LSH, then I think that the Missy model would be the way to do it. Tease her for several episodes and then reveal her. (I completely failed to guess who she was: I was terrified that she would be the awful Rani from the mid 1980’s [Pip and Jan Baker still must die for those stories!], and I was guessing that she was one of Clara’s “splinters” in time.)

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    190. flintwielder,

      No one said it was easy, I just said it’s not impossible and he may still surprise us. But since you mentioned it: those 168 pages are just for show, an obligation to get the contract signed and you know it. I don’t speculate anymore on the number of rough draft pages he wrote, what is left from Dance and how much he re-wrote. There really isn’t any update except for the fact he probably didn’t yet write some of Mel’s POV I suppose. So yes, you may be right about half done, still 600 rough pages left with 6 mo to go. I just hope you are terribly wrong!!!

      As for quality, you already know I thought Dance was a good book, so our opinions might not be the same on Winds anyway! That’s a shocker, I know LOL Sure, the editing on Dance could have been better, that is if Martin hadn’t been quite so stubborn about his choices of words or how many times some phrases should be in, but storywise and per general, I thought it was good (minus a Dany chapter who somehow looks and feels like he wrote it when he was either high or drunk).

      Also, it looks like your mind is already made up. I think that’s just bad. It looks to me like you might not be a true fan, flintwielder!

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    191. Wimsey,

      Well, Chris Ryan also hypothesize something I find plausible (though not desirable): Snow returns as Azor but played by a different actor because GRRM described him to D&D as a character Kit couldn’t possibly play. It’s a terrible idea if true, but its not a reach.

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    192. Ravyn,

      I think that’s a huge reach. I don’t think that plays with tv audiences, to have 5 seasons of Kit as Jon Snow, kill him off, resurrect him as formerly Jon Snow played by another new actor for whom the audience feels absolutely zero affinity? There’s just no way that works on television as a medium, and I really think D & D are ultimately concerned with what works on TV.

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    193. Deesensfan:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2MGg_8TF9g

      Desperate!

      Oh and some nice Arya foreshadowing. Brown eyes – Check!
      Also, darkness = being blind now.

      I’ve been thinking about that scene as well. I’m wondering if Melisandre (and perhaps a bunch of other people) will retreat to Braavos at some point, or if Arya will eventually head to the Wall. Mel seemed quite sure they would meet again.

      As far as we know, all the ships that Jon borrowed from Stannis for the Hardhome mission are still waiting at Eastwatch, and Stannis doesn’t seem to need them back anymore. They could even bring Wun Wun to Braavos, so they could have a giant to go with their Titan. That would certainly be quite an interesting scene.

      Maybe Podrick will see Sansa and Theon fall, and go pull them out of the snow and bring them to Brienne. It would be funny if the squire/sidekick she didn’t want ended up completing her “main quest” for her while she was off dealing with the Stannis vengeance “side quest”.

      As far as Sansa knows, Jon is Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, and there aren’t many other places for her to go right now, so Castle Black seems like their most likely destination. Once they learn the situation there, maybe they would try to take a ship to “anywhere but here” too, which conveniently would most likely be Braavos, since it’s the closest neutral port from the Wall.

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    194. Nadia:
      Ravyn,

      I think that’s a huge reach. I don’t think that plays with tv audiences, to have 5 seasons of Kit as Jon Snow, kill him off, resurrect him as formerly Jon Snow played by another new actor for whom the audience feels absolutely zero affinity? There’s just no way that works on television as a medium, and I really think D & D are ultimately concerned with what works on TV.

      Oh I 110% agree. For TV it;s a moronic idea. It all depends on what GRRM envisions Azor being, and whether D&D would follow it. I’m sure HBO is aware of Kit’s popularity and the affection he’s built up with viewers over 5 years.

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    195. Wimsey: Why would LF know anything about Ramsay?One constant point in the book and the show is that the Southerners know very little about what happens in the north.Both book and show indicate that the Boltons are very good at keeping their secrets.Really, the only way that LF would know anything about Ramsay would be if his brothels were getting a lot of customers from the Dreadfort.That seems implausible.LF is very well informed – particular about goings on in Kings Landing – but well informed is well short of omniscient.

      Now, Varys might have heard something.However, even he acknowledges that his northern birds are less reliable, and he loses all of them after Theon takes over Winterfell.And Varys knows a lot of things that Littlefinger doesn’t.(He also had been setting up spy networks all over Westeros for a couple of decades at that point, whereas LF is a new kid on the block.)

      As for Sansa not needing to marry Ramsay, true, she didn’t: unless she wanted to take back Winterfell.If she wants that, then she pretty much has to marry a Bolton.Other than marrying and then offing (or trying to off) them, what other way does she have to retake the Winterfell?It’s not like this world gives most women more than one tool for this sort of thing.

      The episode after LF professed his ignorance, Ramsay flayed a minor lord and his wife over a tax dispute. What do you think the point of doing stuff like this is? It’s to intimidate other minor lords! It is most definitely intended to be public, and given Ramsay’s history of flaying and “hunting” his way across the north since S2, there is no reason to expect that this was the first time he flayed someone in order to terrorize other northerners. It certainly wasn’t in the books, of course. It is totally irrelevant as to how good the Boltons are at “keeping secrets” if the methods they are using require publicity to work. You seem to be engaging in circular reasoning here. Because the show writers said Ramsay’s (public) actions were secret, he must be a good secret keeper. Therefore, as a good secret keeper, it was rational for his (public) actions to be unknown to people who usually know such things.

      In any case, this plot-line was deeply irrational from its core. But whatever, it’s over. LF will be heading north to mop up the Boltons, reconnect with Sansa, mistakenly put a bit of trust in her (being ignorant about her abuse), and pay for it with his life. The same will happen in TWOW, except LF and Sansa will be together from the start, and it really doesn’t matter who wins the Battle of the North.

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    196. Nadia,

      If Jon is dead-dead on the show, then he’s dead in the novels. He’s a protagonist, and he’s popular. There’s no way that D&D would kill a popular lead and split up his bits between other, less popular players, if they didn’t have to, and if Jon lived in the novels.

      I’m still going with he will return, just because killing him now would be very different from killing Ned, or the RW. Jon’s story is unfinished. The mystery of his parentage is unclear. No northern character can move into his position. I think it would be very bad writing to kill him, for real, at this point, but then the last two books…well, they’re not the first three. GRRM might feel that he can replace Jon with a bunch of new characters, but given his luck with introducing new characters, I doubt it. I’ll read the novel and watch the show, whatever happens.

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    197. Arthur,

      Also, the white walker Nights king seemed very interested in jon snow in the episode, Hardhome. I predict either he or the red priestess will resurrect him into a version similar to his physical self.

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    198. Maria,

      I agree. I, like other book readers, all believe that Jon is not dead in the books. But George is an sadistic mofo, and he’s had a loooong time in between books. I really and truly don’t put it past him to decide actually Jon is dead-dead, just to subvert expectations. I believe he has much story left to be told, but I no longer really think that means he has to live.

      Having said that, it’s not just book readers who don’t believe he’s really dead, I’ve seen lots of Unsullied on social speculating that he’s not. D & D were book readers themselves, before anything else. Of course they have the same theories as we did (ie Jon is not dead). So you can argue that they know they have an uphill battle to maintain suspense, both with Sullied and Unsullied, that’s why they’re being so adamant.

      I don’t think Kit would lie about Season 6 though, that’s a remarkably specific and blatant lie. So either Jon is really dead or they’re planning an incredibly stupid plan of dropping Jon for a whole season.

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    199. Chad Brick: The episode after LF professed his ignorance, Ramsay flayed a minor lord and his wife over a tax dispute.

      How would Littlefinger know that? He was traveling at the time.

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    200. I just can’t get over them saying he won’t be in Season 6. That’s a really bold claim to make if untrue because everyone is going to be actively looking for signs of Kit filming.

      But it would be so unbelievably stupid to shelf Jon Snow and Kit for a WHOLE season. That’s a 2 year period for him to come back after, and he’s one of the shows biggest stars.

      If you believe Jon is not dead because George still has plans for the character, then you believe he’s big/important enough not to shelf for a WHOLE SEASON at the end of the game.

      That’s really what’s throwing me here.

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    201. Deesensfan,

      I’d definitely say he’s dead now, but I’m unsure if he’ll stay that way (or for how long), or whether he’ll be changed if/when he comes back. I’d say there’s a high probability that he’ll be back in some form (and presumably still played by Kit, regardless of what he says in interviews), but I’m not sure if he’ll be the same Jon we know, or changed in some significant way (hopefully not as much as the Mountain). It might in some way parallel Arya’s story of becoming “no one” vs. remaining Arya.

      My guess is that Jon will be dead if/when Sansa visits Castle Black, and she won’t stay there for long, either taking a ship from Eastwatch, or turning back toward Winterfell if Littlefinger and the Vale army take it from the Boltons. Or maybe Sansa, Theon, Brienne, Podrick, Davos, Tormund, Wun Wun, and the wildlings will all go kick some Bolton ass. 🙂

      Another possibility is that Mel doesn’t actually know how to do a resurrection, and has to take Jon’s body to Thoros (presumably by sea and river, like when she abducted Gendry, and possibly with a stop at Braavos along the way), giving us a chance to reconnect with the Riverlands plots, and probably leaving the Night’s Watch (and maybe the Boltons) to be overrun by the army of the dead.

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    202. Nadia,

      Very true, Kit was specific about next season. I hope that they don’t try to replace one of three protagonists with a mishmash of new characters. That’s not going to go over well in a show where there are many stories happening all over the globe, now without the War of the Five Kings connecting them. Tyrion, Jon, Dany tie viewers to these regions. Take one away, and things could fall apart. North is probably the most important region, too. It’s central to the apocalypse.

      It would be such an unwise move that I can’t believe Martin would do it. You never know, though. If Martin does it, the show must follow. Hope he returns, and Jon isn’t even my favorite character.

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    203. Robb Snow,

      Pretender! There can only be one.

      Anyway, I agree with something Wimsey said elsewhere: Dany not burning I think is more tied to AA/TPTWP prophecies and magic, not just having Targaryen blood. If whatever gods or magic seem to be at work in the world of ASOIAF will it, then perhaps Jon too could resist the flames on his funeral pyre.

      Personally, I think she will just pray over his body like Thoros and he shall rise as Beric did… but you never know.

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    204. Casso:
      Another possibility is that Mel doesn’t actually know how to do a resurrection, and has to take Jon’s body to Thoros (presumably by sea and river, like when she abducted Gendry, and possibly with a stop at Braavos along the way), giving us a chance to reconnect with the Riverlands plots, and probably leaving the Night’s Watch (and maybe the Boltons) to be overrun by the army of the dead.

      That has a serious Weekend At Bernie’s vibe to it. Who knows, maybe that’s one of the shows GRRM is developing with HBO right now.

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    205. A Man Grown,

      I agree. Jon was the only character on the show for whom I had any real interest left. I don’t see them replacing that for me, so if he is dead, then it is time to let GoT go.

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    206. Is anyone else thinking that the dead Jon image with the blood creeping in the snow is made to look a lot like he’s growing a dragon wing? Or is it just my wishful thinking? Otherwise, they could have made it leak a little more… dunno… roundly 🙂

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    207. Geralt of Rivia,

      Personally most people i know class jon snow as their favourite char and have no interest if he is not in it.

      I knew this was coming (i read the books) but was surprised to hear kit is out of the show.

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    208. Wimsey: Nothing in the books indicates that LF or anyone in the South knew anything abou Ramsay save for his existence.

      No, but D&D said LF knew in the books, so I guess they discussed with Martin. They said in the show LF didn’t knew because Ramsay is a closeted monster, not like in the books, where is common knowledge.

      Dreadfort? Flaying people? Man, someone like LF at least could suspect something.

      Anyway, you can rationalize anything you want, but watching the unsullied video reviews everyone just assumed LF knew (“How can he not”, they say) but just didn’t care. Which is the opposite of their intent. And we all know they just did it because is how tv shows work, they needed to have Sansa’s actress doing something this season.

      So for someone who watches the show is a bit in-congruent, and when later on LF does something on character it would be out of character for them.

      Anyway I can live with that, all I’m saying is the Sansa/Theon scene lacked any tension for me

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    209. Trying to type a nice summary of my feelings about Jon and Stannis, keep getting “timed out.” as in “your request timed out,” even tho what I’m trying to put up isn’t all that long. Never happened before. Is the problem on my end or yours?

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    210. Deesensfan:
      Pau,

      Dumb down storyline ?

      Compared to the books, yeah. As it should be. Although maybe not as much. It should be streamlined, but not dumbed down. I mean, how many time do they have to show us Olly staring at Jon?? We get it, geez.

      Or the Dorne one…in the books they try to make Myrcella Queen to fuck with the Lannisters, because according to Dornish law the oldest sibling gets to be king, no matter the gender. Here instead they kill her..an innocent 13y old? Oberyn would disapprove!!! So the Dorne people, who you root for in the books, here are mainly villains, because Doran is a bit of a joke..

      Same with LF and Sansa…it makes no sense for LF to marry Sansa off, even if he doesn’t know that Ramsey is a monster. You know that there’s gonna be a fight between Stannis and the Boltons…wait until it’s over, see what happens. Then yu go with the knights of the Vale. Or you don’t. It’s too fucking cold up there anyway, and Winter is Coming.

      And the Mereen one just doesn’t make any sense…although to make sense you would need another 10 episodes and would have been really boring, so they had no other option. But it just adds up

      Brienne…another failed storyline in my opinion. Although the book counterpart is no better, I hoped D&D would have improved it. Instead we have Brienne acting like a bitch towards Pod, being unable to protect Sansa and killing an already dead man. Ugh. In the books is this Quest, this search of the holy grial (Sansa) as an allegory of the King Arthur books and legends. I didn’t like it, but I see it has some value

      Plus too many shocking deaths at the end have the opposite effect..they numb you

      Whatever, I don’t wanna seem too disappointed. I guess I feel like Real Madrid fans feel this year ;-P

      You can’t always win…next year will be better 😉

      And Jon is coming back

      Chad Brick: In any case, this plot-line was deeply irrational from its core. But whatever, it’s over. LF will be heading north to mop up the Boltons, reconnect with Sansa, mistakenly put a bit of trust in her (being ignorant about her abuse), and pay for it with his life. The same will happen in TWOW, except LF and Sansa will be together from the start, and it really doesn’t matter who wins the Battle of the North.

      Yeah…agree

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    211. Thronetender:
      Trying to type a nice summary of my feelings about Jon and Stannis, keep getting “timed out.” as in “your request timed out,” even tho what I’m trying to put up isn’t all that long.Never happened before. Is the problem on my end or yours?

      It also happens to me…click page back and post comment again. It should work. If not, copy paste it in a new tab

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    212. How I think it will play out is they will go to get his body to burn and it will be gone. And so will Mel. They will assume he turned wight and that will be that as far as the wall goes aside from what I predict will be a full on massacre of the remaining Watch by the wildlings.

      As for Kit I believe it possible he is done with the show. That doesn’t preclude a recast. “kill the boy, let the man be born”. They recast him with someone who looks older and more haggard since its already been established resurrection takes a physical toll. He wont be the Jon Snow we know anymore either so theres no lie there to say “jon Snow” isn’t coming back

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    213. After 2 nights of limited sleep and feeling completely drained… (yes, I do need to get a life)…. I wonder: Who’s to say that Mel didn’t use “glamour” to imitate Jon due to her guilt over being so wrong about Stannis and it was she herself who “dies”… ??? Silly thought probably. I keep thinking about the interview or whatever she did where she stated he had one more big scene with Jon….. I don’t recall seeing it…. did I miss it???? Just so aggravated over all of it – the finale ending that way but more so the long drawn out wait for the next book… will it even be out before S6???? GRRRRRRR…. There’s a fine line between keeping an audience waiting while your feverishly trying to finish a book in a series….. and deliberately delaying while working on other projects…. That is THE MOST AWFUL part of getting sucked in to a series. Makes me want to say “I’m done with GOT forever!!!” Oh hell who am I kidding, we’ll wait it out, we’ll go out and buy the new book, and read it and read it again and anxiously await the next season on HBO so we can rant and rave again…… Waaaaaaa rant over. Carry on my friends, today is a new day…… and we’ll eventually know what happens……

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    214. Books and show I reckon Stannis’ main purpose in the story is to get Melissandre to Castle Black where she finds Jon Snow (and of course saving the NW from the Wildling host in the process) . We only ever see Stannis through other POVs in the books so I don’t think he is that important to the overall arc ( apart from just being another agent of general Westerosi chaos ) and the flawed but well meaning hero saving the North from the Boltons is another GRRM red herring.

      Of course when GRRM, who is working so hard on the books, finally has TWOW published in the next few months my theory could be proven to be “show nonsense”.

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    215. FTW was kinda rushed in the show.
      You did not get the feel of NW members being backed into a corner like it was in the books.
      Thorne lets Jon trough the wall with 5000 freefolk to kill him a few days later with no extra reason? Makes no sense.

      Pink Letter is missing, Jon deserting, that EXTRA drop that tips the full glass…

      The way show made it happen well it did not have anything to do with “the watch“.
      They simply wanted HIM dead.

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    216. Pau,

      And how many times did they mention the stupid fucking daggers in the dark crap,that felt forced as fuck but of course you won’t mention that because like all book purists do it goes against your agenda of bashing the show against the books .

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    217. DDF345:
      Arya Havin’ a Larf,

      Lol,working hard on the books yeah right .

      When did GRRM become affiliated with Elio and Linda weirdos? I bet it was after SOS.
      I have a feeling those two are deliberately slowing him down, to make an extra buck of their GOT connected web-site.
      Just when he should have speed things up they attached him to their WOIAF project.
      He lost 1-2 yaers atleast on that crap “half-book”.

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    218. DDF345:
      Arya Havin’ a Larf,

      Lol,working hard on the books yeah right .

      What, you don’t think he’s labouring away at that keyboard with no other thought than crafting that prose day after day to move one step closer to the end of the saga? Cynics, the lot of you 😉

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    219. If Kit is not lying about him not in for the next season, the only way I can thin this could work is if at wall ghere’s some sort of battle (between wildings and NW or an attack by the WW armies).

      This would delay the funeral pyre and allow Mel to hid Jon’s corpse, and also delay Jon’s resurrection till season 7.

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    220. Arya Havin’ a Larf,

      I think the main problem with Martin is,and i may be in minority when i say this,he stopped caring for his own story,he became sidetracked in all this side things that he doesn’t really know how to resolve all of them,at least that’s my theory for why is it taking so long for the books to come out. I mean he even admitted that finishing ADWD was a chore for him,you know,like those school projects that you don’t really want to do but you have to,that’s how it is with him,the first three books were written for fun and from AFFC onwards it’s been more for the money and fame . This reflects in the quality of the latter books .

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    221. Brock Landers:
      FTW was kinda rushed in the show.
      You did not get the feel of NW members being backed into a corner like it was in the books.

      :Screams in agony before slitting his wrists:

      Okay, if I read “in the books” one more time, I may commit the abovementioned, which would make you complicit in the sad end of a wonderful human being, namely me. So, if you want me to continue breathing air, change your ways. Mighty please.

      Yes, in the books Jon gets shanked in part because he wants to set out for Winterfell, but the main reason is his pro-Wildling policy that completely alienated a good chunk of the Night’s Watch. That much is clear from almost every single Jon chapter in ADwD where the senior leadership of the Watch is constantly opposed to Jon’s every initiative.

      In the show, they cut his ill-fated Winterfell adventure and put the NW’s discontent squarely on the Wildling Issue, which is perfectly logical and understandable. People have been killed in real life for less. Just because it didn’t happen that way in the books, doesn’t mean it makes no sense. Far from it.

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    222. am i the only one his death is poor way of getting jon snow out of his vows to nights watch so he can lead the wildlings and became a king in the end when all the wars are done

      GRRM cant have break his hero break his vows or make a king or queen free from his vows because it will look like jon as dishonorable man for taking that offer so he must have a valid reason to leave the nights watch once and for all and what better way than getting betrayed by the members you thought as your brothers

      it has nothing to do with him becoming AAR but just free himself of his nights watch vows

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    223. Nadia,

      I agree. It does not matter what GRRM described, it is what works on TV that counts.

      But, also, the original story is a novel, not an epic saga. This means two things. One, there might well be “gods” (R’hllor, White Walkers) as plot devices, but those will be to create problems for the humans. Two, Azor Ahai is not going to be (and never was) a “messiah”: he was a person who became deified over the centuries. And the new Azor Ahai is going to be just that: a “great” person, but no greater than Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc. are rapidly becoming.

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    224. DDF345:
      Arya Havin’ a Larf,

      I think the main problem with Martin is,and i may be in minority when i say this,he stopped caring for his own story,he became sidetracked in all this side things that he doesn’t really know how to resolve all of them,at least that’s my theory for why is it taking so long for the books to come out. I mean he even admitted that finishing ADWD was a chore for him,you know,like those school projects that you don’t really want to do but you have to,that’s how it is with him,the first three books were written for fun and from AFFC onwards it’s been more for the money and fame . This reflects in the quality of the latter books .

      He described AFFC as ” a bitch” and ADWD as ” three bitches and a bastard”, which although may well be merely a rueful look at the difficulty he found writing them, could come across as a deepening lack of enthusiasm. Will TWoW be “five bitches , three bastards and a c**t”?

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    225. Mr Fixit: Yes, in the books Jon gets shanked in part because he wants to set out for Winterfell, but the main reason is his pro-Wildling policy that completely alienated a good chunk of the Night’s Watch. That much is clear from almost every single Jon chapter in ADwD where the senior leadership of the Watch is constantly opposed to Jon’s every initiative.

      And yet many, many book-readers miss this. They think that it was a spur-of-the-moment thing, ignoring the fact that Bowen Marsh flatly declares that what Jon is doing is treason in the middle of the book. Moreover, how often do we read fans state that Jon was “deserting” the NW or “breaking his vows” by responding to Ramsay’s letter? Ramsay had just declared war on the Wall: he basically states that he’s going to kill and/or flay every member of the Watch until he gets back Arya and this “Reek” person/thing.

      (Yes, Jon himself thinks that nobody can accuse him of asking his brother’s to break his vows, which is different from acknowledging that they are: but Jon is not so simple-minded as Bowen Marsh and should know better than to try to argue logical conundrums with someone like that.)

      And Jon doesn’t have them. Moreover, the people he does have (Melissandre, Selyse & Shireen, and Val & Mance’s “son”) have more people guarding them than the NW can overcome to turn them over. (I seriously doubt that the NW could make Melissandre do anything, anyway, even without knights to “guard” her.)

      One other thing that gets stressed in the books is that Castle Black is defenseless on the south side. Jon’s job is to defend the Wall. Yet he cannot possibly defend it against an attack from the South (which he now is powerless to prevent). Anyone with any tactical knowledge knows that if you are in a place that cannot be defended, then you move to some place that is more defensible: and Jon is well trained in tactics.

      I think that one big problem is that many book readers went from wondering if the letter might be fake to convincing themselves that it was fake to convincing themselves that it was obviously fake to convincing themselves that it was obvious to Jon that it was fake. But here is the kick: there never was any sound or valid reason to think that the letter was fake.

      The other big problem was that many readers treated one part of the NW’s vows as overriding all others. The NW isn’t supposed to take part in Westerosi politics. Fine. But the NW is supposed to defend the Wall. Westerosi lords are supposed to support the Wall. So, if a Westerosian lord breaks his side of the bargain by declaring war on the Wall (and in simple terms, that is what Ramsay did), then it becomes logically impossible for the Lord Commander to both: 1) defend the Wall and, 2) not get involved in Westerosian politics.

      Indeed, in some ways, it would be cruelly amusing to have Ramsay turn up at the Wall and flay Bowen Marsh et al. alive while trying to get them to turn over Reek & Arya. Maybe, just maybe, Bowen would realize in the end that there actually are worse things than Wildlings!

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    226. Arya Havin’ a Larf: He described AFFC as ” a bitch”and ADWD as ” three bitches and a bastard”, which although may well be merely a rueful look at the difficulty he found writing them, could come across as a deepening lack of enthusiasm. Will TWoW be “five bitches , three bastards and a c**t”?

      He’s already described aDwD as “Kong” (i.e., a huge monkey on his back) and tWoW as “Son of Kong.” That’s not a promising description…

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    227. DDF345: I think the main problem with Martin is,and i may be in minority when i say this,he stopped caring for his own story

      I don’t think that it is “caring” (or lack of it). Instead, I think that GRRM got caught up in the limelight. He went from a little known Fantasy author to one of Hollywood’s Most Influential in a heartbeat. (Another “overnight success” 30 years in the making….) That must have been seductive.

      What I do blame GRRM for is lack of resolution and lack of dedication. GRRM has stated that he needs particular conditions to work. OK, I understand that: I am a lot like that myself, and most of my colleagues are. (We scientists are notorious “binge workers” much like many novelists, musicians and other artists are.) However, what I do is make damn sure that I make big blocks of time on my calendar where I work 12-14 hours a day 7 days a week. It’s just dedication, plain and simple. I frequently skip meetings, appointments and other things that I am “supposed” to do because while I’m on the project, I don’t do anything else.

      GRRM describes himself as needing to work in a similar way. So, why the hell hasn’t he? OK, I can see a year of enjoying the new fame: but he should have just cloistered himself away and basically corresponded only with B&W and an editor for 7-9 months until it was done. Then enjoy another year in the limelight, do it again, and then kick back and enjoy the rest of the run.

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    228. Simeon,

      Yeah, but much like Tom Baker’s 1 minute cameo at the end of the Day of the Doctor, hiding one scene in one episode is one thing. Hiding participation in an entire series is quite another.

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    229. I think the timing of this interview is something that is very misleading to people, and it was properly done on purpose. This interview was done just after Kit shot season 5. The scripts for season 6 was properly not even written yet. The actors does not really know what will happen in the future, Kit could actually have thought that he wouldn’t be in season 6 at this time. But seriously he did a lot of talk shows last week looking like Jon Snow, with the long hair and beard.

      But there properly is always a possibility that Jon Snow might not be back in the show. In the book his stabbing is left more open ended, he could still be alive. The books always has loads of prophesies and dreams, which makes it seems more likely that Jon will return. I am sure he will return in the books, but I guess the show could cut it out and still get away with it to some degree. Although they could have burned him on a pyre to make that people think he is dead. But generally his absence leaves a gap in the Northern plot lines.

      Leaving Jon dead in both mediums would just be bad writing and terrible story telling.

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    230. Brock Landers: You did not get the feel of NW members being backed into a corner like it was in the books.

      I never got the feeling that they were getting backed into a corner. The only “feeling” was how obvious it was that people like Bowen Marsh were so obsessed with hating Wildlings that they could not see the greater danger presented by the Others. Hodor’s Bastard frequently described Marsh and his followers as the “Nationalist Contingent”: and that was (is!) an excellent description of the real problem. And that is the direction the show took.

      DDF345: And how many times did they mention the stupid fucking daggers in the dark crap,that felt forced as fuck

      I would not call it “forced” but I would say that it was even more obvious than Chekhov’s Olly! It was less obvious to me that the attempt would succeed (or be as successful as it was): but if I was “unsullied,” then I would have predicted that Olly would attempt to kill Jon and get killed in the process, leaving Jon devastated and guilt-wracked, and being a double-entendre on “kill the boy.”

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    231. Wimsey:
      Simeon,

      Yeah, but much like Tom Baker’s 1 minute cameo at the end of the Day of the Doctor, hiding one scene in one episode is one thing.Hiding participation in an entire series is quite another.

      I completely agree. If they are all lying, they won’t be able to hide it. If we get through the entire filming season with not even a hint of a rumour that he’s on set, that’ll pretty much mean he’s gone. The lying (if that’s what it is) will only work for a while.

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    232. I can’t wait for Jaime and Brienne to get back together. The meeting of the Kingslayers will be a total riot.

      At least one of them did it for a good reason – saving thousands of people from being incinerated by a madman. The other? Kingslaying in order to get petty revenge for a long-dead traitor, while at the same time ignoring your vows to protect the living? Yeah, not quite so honorable. I hope our new Kingslayer receives a bit of justice for that one.

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    233. Roocat: Thought you guys might find this interesting

      http://blindgossip.com/?p=71872

      Actually this article is totally wrong. Kit is set to work on “The Death and Life of John F. Donovan”, movie by Xavier Dolan.

      Of course he can do a movie AND come back on the show, but still, this article is bullshit.

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    234. Simeon: I completely agree.If they are all lying, they won’t be able to hide it.If we get through the entire filming season with not even a hint of a rumour that he’s on set, that’ll pretty much mean he’s gone.The lying (if that’s what it is) will only work for a while.

      I think “working for a while” is all they really need or want. The fanatics are fanatics and will find out right away, while the casuals will either pick up on it or not closer to the start of the season. For the moment, it creates buzz, and buzz is good.

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    235. Wimsey,

      I agree with your assessment on Jon Snow’s situation in the books. On top of that people also tend to forget that Bowen Marsh, Jonos Slynt and Alliser Thorne were conspiring together long before Jon even became the Lord Commander. He caught them red handed once in the steam rooms. They where trying to work together with the Lannisters and Kings Landing. So basically Bowen Marsh would be a hypocrite for stabbing Jon for trying to intervene in the politics of the realm. Interfering with the politics of the realm isn’t even actually part of the official Nights Watch vows, it is just a general rule or guideline that they follow.

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    236. Mr Fixit,

      The one thing I did think might happen in the show is that the whole Hardhome thing would be ANOTHER reason to shank him. I could hear Thorne in my head saying:

      “Wait! Let’s say we believe you. Are you telling us that you failed to get the wildings out of there, lost the thing that kills White Walkers AND gave them thousands more soldiers? And they are a short boat ride away? Yeah, OK, Winter is Coming, but You’re Done.”

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    237. Wimsey: They think that [FTW] was a spur-of-the-moment thing, ignoring the fact that Bowen Marsh flatly declares that what Jon is doing is treason in the middle of the book. Moreover, how often do we read fans state that Jon was “deserting” the NW or “breaking his vows” by responding to Ramsay’s letter? Ramsay had just declared war on the Wall: he basically states that he’s going to kill and/or flay every member of the Watch until he gets back Arya and this “Reek” person/thing.

      I agree that FTW was presented as a well-planned event in the books. Right before the pink letter is revealed and read, I smell conspiracy brewing in the books:

      To [Jon’s] left he saw Marsh and Yarwyck. Othell was surrounded by his builders, whilst Bowen had Wick Whittlestick, Left Hand Lew, and Alf of Runnymudd beside him…. Two of Queen Selyse’s knights had come as well, Jon saw. Ser Narbert and Ser Benethon stood near the door at the foot of the hall. But the rest of the queen’s men were conspicuous in their absence. –ADwD, Page 997.

      I think it no coincidence that the traitors were all sitting together before the pink letter. It sounds like the queen’s men are acting suspiciously, as well. And then immediately after reading, the traitors all leave together.

      Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. –ADwD, Page 998.

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    238. Satin,

      azor ahi is going to be Brienne of Tarth. The reason they did not show Stannis die, is it would give away a spoiler for next season. When Brienne’s dragon steel sword comes in contact with stannis’s blood(kings blood) the sword will catch fire. It sounds crazy but kings blood matters and so does valeryion steel. What happens when they come in contact. Or she will be lady Stone Heart.

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    239. Boudica,

      Regardless of whether getting involved with the Realm is or is not a formal vow, it becomes moot once part of the Realm declares war on the Watch!

        Quote  Reply

    240. Michael White,

      If there’s one thing I’ve learned from GOT and GRRM, it’s to always expect the unexpected. You can never predict what’s going to happen. So I would scrap your entire list and start brainstorming some new ideas. Everyone is saying the same thing—he’ll be resurrected, he’ll warg into Ghost, he’s Azor Ahai, etc, etc.

      So let’s scrap all of the well known theories and start fresh…

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    241. Ginevra,

      I do not think that the Queens men were in on it. Jon frustrated Selyse, but Bowen made it pretty plain that he thought that Stannis was a rebel and a traitor. (Most of the men think Tommen is Robert’s really meant I think that Tommen is Robert’s son.). And, of course, the Red God seemed to offend traditionalists: and although Bowen never comments omit directly, it would be consistent with the rest of his personality if he felt that way.

      The Wall could be quite a mess when Jon wakes up! The pro and anti Jon factions (remember, a lot of Crows cheered Jon’s declaration of War), the Wildlings and the Queen’s men: that is a combustible mix and a big spark was set off!

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    242. Pau:

      Plus too many shocking deaths at the end have the opposite effect..they numb you

      Whatever, I don’t wanna seem too disappointed. I guess I feel like Real Madrid fans feel this year ;-P

      You can’t always win…next year will be better

      And Jon is coming back

      Yeah…agree

      I understand where you are coming from.. but the show and the books wont be the same… but I guess Youre saying the book story is better
      and youre right, for me if Jon doesn’t come back, I will lose interest in the show big time. BIG TIME.

      Ha, REAL MADRID will win next year! and jon will come back 😐

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    243. I just think everyone who is totally sure Jon is coming back and has thought of the conventional ways that he comes back is going to be proven wrong. I’m a book reader, and through the echo chamber of the internet over the last few years I’ve convinced myself without question that Jon doesn’t stay dead. But it’s entirely possible that a combo of GRRM/D&D will write the story in a way that Jon DOES stay dead. It would suck and maybe be terrible writing, but it could happen.

      But it seems like the show has jumped ahead of the one thing that could bring Jon back in the books – burning Shireen for his life. That’s already done. And they show has shown no warging ability, no focus on Ghost, which makes me think that’s not how it’s done in the book. So I don’t know actually how they would resurrect him on the show in a way that would make SOME sense to viewers.

      The thing about Kit not being in Season 6 is really throwing me. It’s a lie that’s 1) so easy to disprove given how long GOT films for and 2) would make for horrible television if they shelve Jon Snow for 2 years OR recast him.

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    244. Nadia,

      Thoros of Myr made sure to explain in season 3 that the resurrection of his friend Beric was done by simply asking the lord for a favour, by praying.

      Watch the scene here
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2MGg_8TF9g

      Thoros said he was broken and questioning his faith… but his prayer was still answer
      Melisandre is now broken (by the look on her face when she arrived at the wall) and I HOPE to god she prays for Jon snow.

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    245. Deesensfan,

      I agree, but again, I think certain things are being ignored by people in their certainty that Jon Snow comes back (given that after all it’s just theory/speculation, not fact, and GRRM has had pleeeeeeenty of time to change his mind to screw fans out of the obvious).

      Kit not being in season 6 is a weird thing to lie about, given how openly and for how LONG GOT films. And if Jon Snow is resurrected I can’t imagine that his part is so small that he can be shelved for a whole season.

      Those things to me seem contradictory – he can’t come back but be so removed from the action for so long that they can afford to keep him out for 1 of the remaining 2 seasons?

      But saying Kit is absolutely not coming back would be spoiled so quickly.

      So which is it?

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    246. Every time Thoros resurrected Beric, he apparently loses a little of his own “life essence” so he somehow gives up a part of himself until he will presumably lose all of his “essence” and die.

      Melisandre’s powers OTOH seem to depend on shadowbinding and blood magic which involves taking “essence” from others (and seemingly never from herself) through sacrifice e.g. Shireen. Now in the show Melisandre was shocked that Thoros had this ability but it’s not clear if Melisandre has ever used this power herself (it could be very weakly inferred that she has).

      So, if Mel is to resurrect Jon in line with popular theory, does it mean that she still has “essence” from Shireen in the bank as it were to draw on (since it supposedly already worked on the weather), or will she have to use another “death to pay for life”? Could it be for once that Mel actually has to suffer some kind of loss herself to invoke R’Hllor to bring back Jon? Does the red ruby somehow compensate for that?

      I’m not certain that Jon is resurrected although it seems the precedents for Beric and Catelyn seem to be a Chekhov’s gun here…unless it’s another GRRM red herring.

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    247. Story inconsistencies this season have bugged me. One example; how did Melisendre come up with a horse to ride to the Wall when that very same episode a soldier told Stannis and Mel that half the company had deserted and taken all the horses. So, how did she get a horse???
      It strikes me that there have been more than a few continuity errors over this season than previous seasons. I started noticing it more in Season 4, but Season 5 was even worse. It’s as if the story has gotten too big for the producers and they’re getting sloppy. There won’t be any Emmy’s for the show itself this year, unless it’s for one episode, Hardhome. That episode ROCKED!!

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    248. Part of what is driving me bonkers about the show killing off Jon Snow “permanently” is didn’t Melisendre say all she sees is Snow when looking for Azor Ahai in her fires?

      All the clues regarding Jon’s parentage and her seeing Snow when looking for Azor Ahai, why would an author spend all that time building the mountain of clues about a character’s destiny to just pointlessly kill him off before anything comes of it?

      And if it’s not GRRM’s intent to kill off Jon “permanently” because of what I just mentioned, haven’t the show runners gone so far off story now that they’re butchering the overall story arc???

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    249. Lundy:
      Part of what is driving me bonkers about the show killing off Jon Snow “permanently” is didn’t Melisendre say all she sees is Snow when looking for Azor Ahai in her fires?

      All the clues regarding Jon’s parentage and her seeing Snow when looking for Azor Ahai, why would an author spend all that time building the mountain of clues about a character’s destiny to just pointlessly kill him off before anything comes of it?

      And if it’s not GRRM’s intent to kill off Jon “permanently” because of what I just mentioned, haven’t the show runners gone so far off story now that they’re butchering the overall story arc???

      Melisandre saw Jon Snow in the books. Once again the books are the books the show is the show!

      Even if they kill off Jon Snow permanently in the show that is NO INDICATION GRRM will do the same in the books!

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    250. Lundy,

      I know what you mean. This and Jon and the Wildlings approaching Castle Black from north of the Wall kinda annoy me a bit. I also don’t get how Ramsay found out about the old maid who told Sansa to light a candle in the tower. You could explain the latter two by simply saying they were added for the sake of drama… which worked to that end, I suppose.

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    251. Mr Fixit: :Screams in agony before slitting his wrists:

      Okay, if I read “in the books” one more time, I may commit the abovementioned, which would make you complicit in the sad end of a wonderful human being, namely me. So, if you want me to continue breathing air, change your ways. Mighty please.

      Yes, in the books Jon gets shanked in part because he wants to set out for Winterfell, but the main reason is his pro-Wildling policy that completely alienated a good chunk of the Night’s Watch. That much is clear from almost every single Jon chapter in ADwD where the senior leadership of the Watch is constantly opposed to Jon’s every initiative.

      In the show, they cut his ill-fated Winterfell adventure and put the NW’s discontent squarely on the Wildling Issue, which is perfectly logical and understandable. People have been killed in real life for less. Just because it didn’t happen that way in the books, doesn’t mean it makes no sense. Far from it.

      Thank you from the bottom of my cold, cold heart.

      Anyhow, yes indeed, Marsh and friends kill Jon over the wildlings. What the book readers are noting is that the Watch should be concerned with the apocalypse, damn it. What’s this obsession with wildlings? I agree this is a problem, but it goes back to the BOOKS.

      In the books, Marsh and others know that the Long Night is around the corner. They know obsidian kills the walkers, and fire kills wights. What do they do? Do they warn the north? Do they send ravens, everywhere? Do they tell the Iron Banker? Heavens no. No, they try to tell KL, once. That’s it. Martin simply refuses to make a big deal of it, cuz, you know, that zombie apocalypse…it’s just less interesting than Jon counting ham hocks and bags of beans.

      OK, so they give up on warning people. Well, at least they have the banker! Banker has money. He has given them a loan, which means they have gold. So, do they get together, and contemplate the defense of humanity against the Walkers? Do they try and figure out how they can get more obsidian, get weapons manufactured? NOOOO. The show at least includes the bit on the difficulty of making obsidian weapons, which is totally lacking in the novels. No. The novel Jon is poetic on glass houses for fruits and veggies, cuz FOOD. Oh, lovely food. Let’s describe all those meals. Weaponry, not so much.

      Since neither the Watch nor Jon are concerned with such issues, Jon’s assassination comes down to wildlings, which was ridiculous in the novels, and seems ridiculous in the show. If I hear one more “in the book!” I will join you in wrist slitting.

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    252. I don’t believe that the presence or absence of Kit on set for the filming of Season 6 is going to be a “spoiler” for the fate of Jon Snow. I believe GRRM will be releasing the next book prior to the filming – and it will be the book that answers the question . . . and I believe that has been the plan since they began filming Season 5.

      I discount Kit’s interview because he could be lying, he could be playing a game of semantics, or he could not even be in on the inside information.

      As for hints . . . it sure seemed like there was a lot of fire/light imagery in the FtW scene.

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    253. Been meaning to weigh in on this. My sole complaint is ending a show on a cliffhanger when the next season is nearly a year away. I couldn’t stand it when Castle did that (and that was only a 4-month wait), and that’s a big part of why I don’t care for broadcast TV.

      As for the event itself, I could see it going either way. Jon could be revived (but not be the same person he was) or he could be truly dead. To be honest, I’m fine either way. The whole R+L=J idea, while interesting, smacks too much of the cliche “prophecy” that permeates so many fantasy books. If nothing else, ASOIAF/GOT has been insistent on subverting if not upending that tradition. If Jon doesn’t come back, I’ll admit I’ll be a little disappointed, but he yielded to Tyrion as my favorite character a long time ago.

      I must also ask all those prepared to abandon the show: what did you think this franchise was? From the beginning, there were warnings that your favorite characters wouldn’t survive. “You win or you die.” “If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.” Etc.

      And before anyone starts complaining about what GRRM and D&D owe you, let me make this clear: they owe you nothing. Just because you liked their work doesn’t mean you have any role in what they do. There are other fish in the sea. They’ll just move on and find other buyers.

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    254. Johnny Law:
      I don’t believe that the presence or absence of Kit on set for the filming of Season 6 is going to be a “spoiler” for the fate of Jon Snow.I believe GRRM will be releasing the next book prior to the filming – and it will be the book that answers the question . . .and I believe that has been the plan since they began filming Season 5.

      TWOW isn’t finished yet, and once it is finished it has to be edited, resulting in a lag of several months between completion and publication. Even if GRRM announced that TWOW was complete today, there is no way that TWOW could be released prior to the filming of Season 6, since filming will start in July.

      There is still a (dwindling) chance that TWOW can be released prior to the release of Season 6 in 2016, but thanks to filming spoilers we will have a very good idea whether or not Kit is in or out before Season 6 actually starts airing.

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    255. Pigeon,

      Pigeon,

      Don’t they film in phases? Is there a schedule for filming in Northern Ireland/Iceland (which, I believe is where they film for The Wall)?

      Is it any less likely that GRRM would release the next book one month from now than one year from now? The world is utterly in the dark on the release date, right?

      We shall see, I guess.

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    256. I think Jon Snow is dead but he will be back somehow. He’s story isn’t finished yet and I believe we will see him rise in season 6. The big question is how will they play out what to do with his dead body since they’re probably gonna burn it. Here’s my speculation.

      I think they’re are some Wildlings still at the wall, hence Jon believing Olly when he tells him a wildlings saw Benjen. There’s got to be a good number of them still at Castle Black like Tormund and Wun-Wun. They left Jons body there so people could find it in the morning but I think the Wildlings will find it first, realize without Jon they’re screwed and attack the remaining member of the NW, the NW will have been planning to take out the Wildlings also. The Wildlings will win with help from some NW members who were with Jon. In the confusion Mel will convince Davos and some others to take Jons body so she can revive him. She will be successful but his body will be so weak he’ll stay off screen for awhile. Or maybe she just revives his soul and he wargs into ghost then with help from Bran he wargs back into his body towards the end of the season.

      I would say his body disappears at the end of EP 1. End of EP 3-4 he gets revived. End of 8-10 he’s back in his body.

      Jeezus. Don’t know if I can’t wait 9 months.

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    257. Wimsey,

      Amusingly, I would counter that this is not a run-of-the-mill fantasy

      That’s exactly what what I was saying, they’re not novels or run of the mill fantasies–they’re a cut above and certainly closer to epic sagas. And I love Faulkner so that’s probably why I love GRRM’s work. As a personal note, I have a running joke that my family is Faulknerian. Sadly very few people actually know what the hell I’m talking about.

      As for your clinical robot convo–That describes my internal debate as well. And the glass is half full side of me is winning, which dampens my enthusiasm for all things GoT. /sigh

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    258. Reading the comments on this page has reassured me somewhat that although Jon is dead, he will be coming back. I’ve read the books and have always been certain he’d come back but the interviews had begun to sew some uncomfortable seeds of doubt in my mind about it all. That’s what they are supposed to do though. As someone else said, what are they supposed to say? ‘Nah, he’s coming back’ or ‘wait and see *wink, wink*’? I’m sure D&D want the books readers to have some element of doubt as to what’s going to happen next here, even if that doubt can’t realistically be sustained for too long.

      Sam’s line that ‘Jon always comes back’, along with Aemon’s ‘kill they boy, let the man be born’ seem to be pretty good hints towards what is going to happen. Someone else made a good point about the LSH resurrection being cut to give Jon’s more impact. I also think that while in the books Melisandre might sacrifice Shireen for Jon, maybe in the show, Stannis’s sacrifice of Shireen will still be attributed to helping Jon’s resurrection. Do delayed reaction sacrifices work? I dunno. But at least it would mean that Stannis’s life and sacrifice weren’t utterly in vain and that although he is not the chosen one or whatever, he still played his part. We’ll soon find out. Story-wise, I just think it would be a total mess in the North with no Jon. The Night’s Watch are surely going to remain important to the story but if Jon’s not there what and who is there to focus on? A season of Davos and Melisandre sharing a flat and arguing all season? Olly being trained by his new Jedi Master Alliser Thorne?

      Personally, I reckon that Jon will warg into Ghost until Melisandre brings him back properly, although I do think that this could be slightly problematic in the show seeing as they’ve not really gone into enough detail about the warging without a Sixskins character. But they could have this explained to him (and us) after his resurrection by some Wildling warg. I reckon the real question will be how long it is until he is resurrected. If they look to stretch Jon’s death out and do a resurrection at the end of season 6 or even in season 7, they could have him in Ghost’s body, possibly beyond going beyond the Wall in season 6, possibly (maybe a bit of a stretch) encountering Bran et al. Did Martin not say somewhere that in book 6 we would see much more of the Land of Always Winter? The main difficulty with that is the question of why they would keep his body intact at the Wall for so long. Surely it will be burned almost immediately? Maybe something will happen on the funeral pyre which will work towards revealing his Targaryen parentage. If he is resurrected at the beginning of season 6 then the show faces the practical problem of trying to keep a secret of the fact that he is in Belfast filming for a good few months this year. Only time will tell but I’m pretty sure we’ll see him again eventually.

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    259. Johnny Law:
      Pigeon,

      Is it any less likely that GRRM would release the next book one month from now than one year from now?

      Yes, it is A LOT less likely 🙂
      (actually is impossible due to editing process)

      Crazy Optimistic release date: Spring 2016
      Very Optimistic release date: Christmas 2016
      Optimistic release date: 2017
      Real release date: someday.

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    260. Jeezo! Didn’t realise that previous post was so long until I’d written it. Apologies to anyone who bothers to read it.

      One final point – I feel terrible that in all of the discussion about Jon’s future, there has been practically nothing said about Stannis. I’m devastated that he was smashed at Winterfell. He was my favorite character in book and show. Watching that “battle” unfold was the first time since watching season 1 (before I’d read the books) where I watched events unfold without a clear idea of whether one of my favorite characters was going to die or not!! If that’s what it’s like to be unsullied then count me out!! Can’t believe the Boltons destroyed Stannis’s army. Things were going from bad to worse for him in the show, that’s for sure. But in the book it really seemed as though, while his army has it tough in the snow, he had a real chance of taking Winterfell. Not looking forward to reading his defeat at Winterfell in the books. I hope he isn’t brutalised by the Boltons before he dies. Not a big fan of Brienne but I prefer that she killed Stannis than one of the Boltons. Does this mean that the pink letter in the books is possibly telling the truth?

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    261. I know what really happens!

      We know the dead rise again as wights if they aren’t burned, so Alliser Thorne allows him to turn and cuts his arms off to keep him as a pet similar to Michonne in TWD

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    262. For everyone talking about how important Jon’s story is, that is exactly the kind of thing GRRM subverts. Jon’s parentage, “all I see is Snow,” Azor Ahai…all those things are supposed to make you think Jon plays a huge heroic part in the coming battle, not lying dead betrayed by his Night’s Watch companions.

      And yet, the more I think about it, leaving Jon Snow dead strikes me as exactly what GRRM might do.

      There will be no reborn prophesied hero to save Westeros. Instead, all those left are going to have to put their petty quarrels aside and deal with Winter themselves.

      And given how many years there were between books and that GRRM knows all the fans think Jon will survive, do you really think that troll will actually write to expectations?

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    263. Folks have been saying that Jon’s last word before he died (sob) was “Ghost”. Well, I have replayed that scene a dozen times (at least) and the last word Jon says is ” Olly”.
      I chalk this up to audio hallucinations. The same folks that heard “Ghost” also heard “Khaleesi” when the Dothraki hoard surrounded Daenerys on the open plain.
      Next season is gonna suck but season 7 will be fookin’ awesome! 😉

      ……..still waiting to hear the goodbyes from other cast members besides John Bradley…….how about Alliser Thorne? Olly? Edd? Sophie?
      Maisie? Alfie? Ewon? Emilia? Come on…..everybody said they really liked Kit……..were they lying?

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    264. honeyimhome,

      Most of them never shot scenes with Harrington or haven’t in years. So, they probably were not interviewed.

      Let’s just hope that they figure “loose lips sink ships” and are not having them comment. (And, who knows: maybe many of them simply were not told: the cast does not see scripts from other plotlines, after all.)

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    265. Nadia,

      I don’t think Martin will just keep on subverting tropes over and over (until it becomes a trope in itself). I think this is one time things will happen as they seem… but I do think Jon’s resurrection will not necessarily be what some expect. Jon Snow as we knew him will not come back. He is truly dead as has been stated. But he’ll be reborn as someone new, a Jon Snow we’ve never seen before. He’ll no longer be the boy… now the man will be born as Aemon stated. This definitely would be something George would do, I think.

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    266. Robb Snow,

      Which is rather a shame – Jon has become a really wonderful character in many ways this year, and it would be sad to lose that.

      I don’t believe he is AA (I’d assign that to Dany), but he may be the next NK.

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    267. Pigeon,

      Maybe. I do think he’ll retain much of Jon’s personality and memories like Beric and Lady Stoneheart, but he’ll still be noticeably different. Perhaps colder and a bit more ruthless than he was before. He might even exact justice upon the members of the Night’s Watch who killed him, or just totally abandon them to their fates and organize a new group to battle the White Walkers, perhaps with Melisandre, Davos, Edd and other brothers still loyal to Jon, and the Wildlings. I’d always had a hunch when reading the books that if something happened to Stannis that Jon would take up his mantle, in more ways than one if Jon is the true AA/TPTWP (one or the other, or both if they are the same).

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    268. Robb Snow,

      That’d be pretty good, actually. Not cold blooded, but unwilling to put up with a bunch of bullshit. Fetch more blocks, Edd…

      I was disappointed with the part of Kit’s EW interview where he says he has failed Olly. Fuck that noise, he bent over backwards for that little turd. “Here, I killed the Thenn. Oh, you killed my girlfriend? Well, I guess I’ll still give you a chance….be my steward. Yes, you must be the only one whose parents were killed horribly, I understand. Let me explain why it is rational and to our advantage to join with the Wildlings (you know, the ones who DIDN’T kill your family.)”

      Just peeves me off. Hope he chokes on a potato.

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    269. Wimsey:
      Ginevra,

      I do not think that the Queens men were in on it.

      I’m sorry that I wasn’t as clear as I could have been, mixing my thoughts on queen’s men with my thoughts on Marsh and Yarwyck. I thought that the queen’s men acted suspiciously, but not that they were part of the FTW effort, which as the mantra would imply should be just for the Watch. I meant that this line about these conspicuously missing men was foreboding, clearly indicating Jon’s loss of support from the queen’s men. The line might be foreshadowing the Wun Wun debacle, but I think it helps us understand why the queen’s men, no doubt surrounding Wun Wun by this point, wouldn’t leap in and defend the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.

      The Wall could be quite a mess when Jon wakes up! The pro and anti Jon factions (remember, a lot of Crows cheered Jon’s declaration of War), the Wildlings and the Queen’s men: that is a combustible mix and a big spark was set off!

      A mess, indeed! I very much agree with this sentiment, but my favorite part is when you said, “when Jon wakes up.”

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    270. DDF345:
      Pau,

      And how many times did they mention the stupid fucking daggers in the dark crap,that felt forced as fuck but of course you won’t mention that because like all book purists do it goes against your agenda of bashing the show against the books .

      Not sure what you talking about…read the book a long time ago and don’t remember. I remember that I didn’t see it coming though.

      Again, I have no agenda. You clearly do, though.

      Deesensfan: I understand where you are coming from.. but the show and the books wont be the same… but I guess Youre saying the book story is better
      and youre right, for me if Jon doesn’t come back, I will lose interest in the show big time. BIG TIME.

      Ha, REAL MADRID will win next year! and jon will come back

      No, I’m not saying that the books are better, I’m saying that the show could have been better this season in those specific storylines . You can’t say the books are better than the show or the other way around, in my opinion. 🙂

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    271. Show and Harington are doing the right thing by GRRM in that any casting info for him in S6 would spoil the storyline

      It may be impossible to keep his presence on set a secret, but they may be able to buy enough time for a Jon Chapter pre-release (as I don’t think he and his publishers will quite be ready with WoW by the time of next season) so GRRM rightly beats the show on this oh so important topic

      Thinking about it all simply makes no sense,

      When For the Watch is in motion Ghost would have run to Jons Chambers, and then ripped Ollies throat out ala Summer and the catspaw in season 1 as soon as he showed his face

      Even if the show understandably decided not to do the warg and “live like a King” adventure, they have quite obviously still left Ghost as a loose end, unlike Grey Wind which was shown to be killed as well when Robb was killed off

      On top of that we need to see the body burned ala Ygritte and then Brenn, Pyp etc as a formal way of saying goodbye, he was just left in the snow and what happens with his body is a loose end. Even Charles Dance came back to play his body lying in state in E1 of this season so for Kit to be saying it was his farewell cake etc doesen’t add up from that perspective

      I know the show has its issues with consistency but…

      I actually think the burning of his body will be the big moment, they (as in Melisandre because his backstabbing brothers certainly won’t do it) will do his cremation, utter the words “and now his watch has ended” ala the customs which means Jon is freed from his vows, and of course the “only death may pay for life” will come into effect and Shireens burning will have paid for Jons resurrection and he will be re-born in salt and smoke and free to win glory and claim crowns and all that

      Of course he will then be free, be free to join and rally the Free-folk who wil follow him (after all he did save them all, plus proved himself a warrior by killing a White Walker in combat) and I reckon northern Lords will back him as Regent for Rickon and they’ll re-take Winterfell

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    272. Lundy:
      CheekyAlien,

      Blah, blah, blah. Not a fan of butchering good story arcs.

      Yeah, I get that but you can’t blame GRRM for the showrunners’ decisions. At least be grateful that there’s a good possibility the story arcs won’t be butchered in the books. 😉

      We also still have no clue what will happen in season 6 and 7. I gotta give it to D&D though, they sure know how to create a buzz. All the speculations, outrage and so forth about the the ending will only generate more and more attention for the show so, there’s that.

      It could very well be that Kit won’t be filming season 6 and will be back for the 7th season. Either way i’m excited to know where they’re going with this.

      Tormund’s Woman: YESSSS! Thank you, anonymous poster who’s sharing belief in TWoW before season 6! From your keyboard to Martin’s Wordstar word processor!!!!

      #FingersCrossed

      I doubt it. From what I’ve seen (I haven’t been around very long) he announces his books at least 6 months in advance. I believe as soon as the final product is done and then he updates with the release dates and such.

      The new Dunk & Egg illustrated book for example was announced in the first quarter of this year (IIRC) that it’ll come out this October. I think if it was due before april of 2016 we would’ve heard something about it by now.

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    273. I went down a youtube black hole of early Jon Snow scenes… so much good foreshadowing. It must pay off, no wonder how much I fear that troll gods of D/D/GRRM.

      Jon asking if his mother knows anything about him or even cares, Ned telling him when they meet again he’ll tell him about his mother. “I promise.” That’s a dead ringer reference for “promise me Ned.”

      Jojen’s vision that Jon Snow “on the wrong side of the wall, surrounded by enemies.” I don’t think that’s just about him being with the Wildlings, I think that was about something more.

      Jon telling a coma Bran “We can go out walking beyond the wall, if you’re not afraid” when saying goodbye. (Wonder if Bran will see dead Jon and play a part too).

      Catelyn saying that all the horrible things that happened to her family were because she couldn’t love a motherless child, couldn’t let him take the Stark name.

      There’s some great writing in this series, and rewatching always pays off. Hopefully all those lines pay off too.

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    274. Arthur,

      You are correct sir! I dug a bit further back in ADWD and found a few more interesting foretellings…….”I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now.” “Daggers in the dark. I know” …..” you would do well to keep your wolf beside you my lord.”
      And Jon thought, “Ice,” she said, “and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel.” His sword hand flexed. The wind was rising.
      “All your questions shall be answered. Look to the skies, Lord Snow. And when you have your answers, send to me. Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope”

      Again I say, No way Jon is dead. He may be finished with the Night’s Watch but he is Azor Ahai and Melisandre finally accepted it. Shireen’s death will pay for Jon’s life.

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    275. Nadia:

      Jojen’s vision that Jon Snow “on the wrong side of the wall, surrounded by enemies.” I don’t think that’s just about him being with the Wildlings, I think that was about something more.

      I think we saw this on Sunday night, ironically.

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    276. Wimsey,

      I would guess the comments would be coming now-after they either saw him die or heard about it via Twitter or internet. Still, all we hear are crickets.

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    277. Pigeon,

      Yup, but my hope is that knowing all the hints they’ve been dropping about Jon, all that will pay off, even if I’m finding doubt creep in…

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    278. I have a question. Do the jerks who stabbed Jon understand that there are less than 50 crows left on the face of the earth? Quite brave of them to off the one crow who has the weaponry to kill White Walkers.
      Wtf are they thinking? Geesh.

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    279. honeyimhome:
      I have a question. Do the jerks who stabbed Jon understand that there are less than 50 crows left on the face of the earth? Quite brave of them to off the one crow who has the weaponry to kill White Walkers.
      Wtfare they thinking? Geesh.

      It’s an ongoing theme of the books and show, the institutions of Westeros are all short term thinking themselves into oblivion. Even Dany, freeing the slaves on an impulse but having no clue what to do afterwards to fix the now broken society. Under normal circumstances they might recover in the long term, but “Winter is Coming”.

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    280. If Jon does come back to take up the northern cause, it’s probably a reason why we’ve had no focus on anti-Bolton northern forces as yet. We seem to have some set up for a Jon v Ramsay conflict with Ramsay mentioning Jon to Sansa. The show has maneuvered Davos into the adviser slot vacated by Sam – and even drew attention to the fact that he needed an adviser. We have the makings of a northern group around a figure head to mirror what’s happening in Mereen – as long as Jon returns of course.

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    281. You forget who is now with Mel at the wall. Sir Davos Seaworth, expert smuggler. He will smuggle Jon’s body out of castle black away from the night’s watch being able to burn the body. The snow didn’t melt for Stannis it melted for Mel to be able to make it back to castle black where the true savior was at. The lord of light sees all. He knew what was going to happen to Jon and he paved the way for Mel to make it back to him. The lord of light resurrects therefor he represents the gift of (life) just like the Many faced god represents the gift of (death). The powerful magic required to resurrect Jon was granted when Shireen was burned. Mel just doesn’t know it yet. There is a reason Mel crossed paths with the Brotherhood and witnessed resurrection. There is also a reason she “only saw snow” when she looked into her flames. She didn’t interpret her flames right at the time because she had not met Jon Snow yet, therefor she never really knew what her vision meant at that time. She is gonna hit an all-time low in the first episode and really begin to doubt her faith. Her faith is being tested, and by the time it is all said and done her faith will be renewed through the resurrection of Azor Ahai. They can’t wait TOO long to resurrect Jon, because the time scale of a season is too long. Just because there are 10 episodes does not mean that everything happens in 10 days. (What, did you think Dany’s dragons grow that fast over the course of a couple days or weeks? Get real). If they wait too long to resurrect Jon then the body will begin to decompose etc. and I seriously doubt anyone is gonna keep a stinking body with them that is decomposing all the way until season 7 considering how much time will have passed by the time season 7 gets here. Me personally, I would not be a bit surprised if Jon gets revived and becomes the “King beyond the wall” for the wildlings. They respect him and they believe in him (unlike the night’s watch). I could definitely see the Vale come in and destroy the Boltons while they are weakened at Winterfell, only to have the remaining Vale forces at Winterfell overrun with Wildlings led by Jon Snow with intentions of taking back Winterfell and rallying the north in the name of the Starks BECAUSE “the north remembers”.

      Don’t worry fans,

      “Jon always comes back”

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    282. honeyimhome,

      One, chances are that none of them believe this story about Jon killing a White Walker. Two, even if true, then, so what? The Wildlings are the #1 enemy, and Jon was saving them.

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    283. I’m just rereading GRRM’s words about his favorite missing characters from the show, and what he said about LS is particularly poignant now. (I figure that spoiler code is now irrelevant for LS because there is just no way she’ll now be included in the show.)

      Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books. Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.

      I’ve talked about Gandalf [in The Lord of the Rings], and how the impact of his death was enormous. When I was a 12-year-old kid reading The Fellowship of the Ring and ‘Fly, you fools!’ and he goes into the chasm … it was ‘Holy shit! [J.R.R. Tolkien] killed the wizard! That’s the guy who knew everything. How are they going to destroy the ring without him?’ And now the ‘kids’ have to grow up because their ‘daddy’ is dead. If Gandalf could die, anybody could die. And then just a few chapters later Boromir goes down. Those two deaths created in me the ‘anyone could die’ thing. At that point I was expecting [Tolkien] to pick off the whole Fellowship one by one. And then we also think in The Two Towers that Frodo is dead, since Shelob stung him and wrapped him up. I really bought it because he set me up with those other deaths. But then, of course, he brings Gandalf back. He’s a little strange at first, but then he’s basically the same old Gandalf. I liked the impact we got from him being gone.

      Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.

      The reason I didn’t want Jon to be resurrected is because I didn’t want Zombie!Jon (or whatever it is that these resurrections seem to create, and even GRRM is saying that this won’t be Jon Snow any longer – Azor Ahai). With Mel being allowed to apparate from Winterfell to Castle Black at the end of the final episode, resurrection is definitely the way they are going.

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    284. Ginevra:
      I’m just rereading GRRM’s words about his favorite missing characters from the show, and what he said about LS is particularly poignant now.(I figure that spoiler code is now irrelevant for LS because there is just no way she’ll now be included in the show.)

      The reason I didn’t want Jon to be resurrected is because I didn’t want Zombie!Jon (or whatever it is that these resurrections seem to create, and even GRRM is saying that this won’t be Jon Snow any longer – Azor Ahai).With Mel being allowed to apparate from Winterfell to Castle Black at the end of the final episode, resurrection is definitely the way they are going.

      And we don’t even know for certain that Jon Snow will be Azor Ahai, Dany remains at least as good a candidate with Aemon having sound reasoning (in the books). Or Azor Ahai could be Jon + Dany + AN Other. It just seems a bit too straightforward in GRRM world that we get a simple “here is the chosen one” reveal.

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    285. Ginevra,

      The most probable scenario is that Jon will be warging Snow. This is something that D & D and Kit have (mistakingly?) told in front of the audience of the Oxford Union panel discussion when Jon said that he would wish to be inside a wolf and Dan replied to him wait for S6.

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    286. Johnny Law,

      The book cannot come out in a month. If GRRM finished today, then it still would be many months before publication. This will not get the hype of a Harry Potter book, but we will still know the release date months in advance.

      To be out by next April, GRRM has to finish by the end of this year. I would not hold my breath on that!

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    287. Wimsey,

      Well, Martin does have 6 more months to make the “deadline”. Maybe he’ll surprise us. Going by some of his recent statements, he seems to believe he may yet succeed. Yeah, I know, he was overly optimistic in the past, but maybe this time…

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    288. Deesensfan,

      That’s what I fear, yes. What I know, or at least what is strongly implied by George, is that if resurrected he wouldn’t be the same Jon Snow we’ve grown to love.

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    289. Arya Havin’ a Larf: And we don’t even know for certain that Jon Snow will be Azor Ahai, Dany remains at least as good a candidate with Aemon having sound reasoning (in the books). Or Azor Ahai could be Jon + Dany + AN Other.It just seems a bit too straightforward in GRRM world that we get a simple “here is the chosen one” reveal.

      I completely agree, Lady Laughing Tree. I tend to state my theories as facts when they are anything but. However, I do think that Dany is actually too on the nose because of what Aemon says about her, in the same way that Stannis was too on the nose because Mel was certain he was. I do think that J + D + ? = 3HD, but I tend to think there’s only one AA and only one of TPTWP, although they might not actually be the same one.

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    290. Wimsey,
      It could be done by the end of the year. At that point, he will have been at it for five years. I’m knocking on wood that he has a new editor.

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    291. dothrakian raven,

      I do think Jon will warg. I very much hope we get to see him warg in Season 6, although Dan could have been completely joking about that, given the context (“put myself into a wolf”). I’m wondering if death (or near death) will prompt Jon to confront his warging abilities, which he seems to have discovered but not embraced in the books.

      But I don’t think that warging will be how he survives – at least not permanently. Jon is deliberately being set up as our warrior hero. He must fight with Longclaw to destroy the Others. He must ride a dragon. He must lead the Night’s Watch and eventually rule the Seven Kingdoms. These are things Ghost cannot do.

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    292. Ginevra,

      I don’t think either one of them will be AA, but the one with better odds is, imo, Dany, just because she’s Dany, the spoiled character of the canon who gets what she wants with minimal punishment. Dany gets a cause. Dany gets a kingdom as school. Dany gets to survive mistakes that would have Red Weddinged anyone else. Dany gets to survive being worshiped, and is (again imo) about to be worshiped by another group, the Dothraki.

      Anyhow, I don’t believe GRRM would kill Jon permanently (and Martin’s killing Jon is the only reason the show would kill him–he’s too important to kill otherwise). However, keeping him alive because he’s AA is unlikely.

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    293. Chad Brick,

      Stannis was not the king though, no matter what he says. That is why he was fighting: because he wants to be the king. Tommen is the king. Also, Brienne is not Stannis´ kingsguard, like Jaime was for the mad king.
      Don´t get me wrong, Jaime was right to kill his king, but there asbolutely no comparison between the two stories.

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    294. Ginevra

      Zombie Jon would be worse than dead Jon. But I think the showrunners are sensitive to this issue and could soften whatever GRRM has in mind. Show Tyrion is much better looking than book Tyrion before and after his Blackwater wound. Brienne is scarred by her battles but not as badly as in the book. It’s a visual medium. A reason they gave for not doing LS was it would have been a kind of insult for the actress who played Cat. Because LS was a fate worse than death for the Cat viewers got to know in the first two series. We didn’t get to know Beric before his transformation and he was still ‘human’ when we did.

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    295. I keep rereading all the interviews Dan, Dave and Kit gave after ep.10.
      Words…….a writer’s weapon and an actor’s job to bring the words to life. Well done guys!!! No one has lied because Jon Snow is dead. Kill the boy and let the man be born……..don’t question your decisions no matter what they may be or who is against them…….a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing……..Maester Aemon is (was) never wrong. The Night’s King made eye contact with Jon because he knew who Jon is-killing the White Walker was what cemented it.
      Let’s hope that they don’t recast TPTWP character…..watch all the casting calls for the next 6 months.
      And I loved, loved, loved the fit of Davos smuggling Jon’s body out of Castle Black before the Watch can burn him. Melisandre and Davos have to work together on this. Davos will become the Prince’s advisor and Melissandre will become the Prince’s Maester………well, maybe my imagination has taken me a bit farther than I needed to go-I am sure you will forgive me. Happy days will be here again…..we just have to wait 8-10 hours and 10 months.

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