Kit Harington admits he’ll be appearing in Game of Thrones season 6… briefly

jon-season-six-poster-game-of-thronesKit Harington talks to TimeOut this week, promoting his leading role on the West End stage in “Doctor Faustus.” The complete interview will come out in April, closer to the play’s premiere date, but the magazine had a Game of Thrones tease for fans they’ve shared in advance.

“Look, I’m not in the show any more. I’m definitely not in the new series,” Harington tells TimeOut. With questioning, he admits he did do some filming. “I filmed some scenes of me being dead – [jokily] it’s some of my best work.”

The actor denies having any further knowledge of the show beyond that, saying, ‘I don’t have a clue. I know how long I’m a corpse for, but I can’t tell you that!’

Fans can decide for themselves whether or not they’re buying this anymore.

There is one other piece of new information today: the HBO schedule has been updated to include the Game of Thrones season 6 premiere, on April 24th. Unfortunately, it doesn’t yet include an episode title (our survey participants will have to wait longer to discover who did best!), but it does list a running time of 50 minutes, and the main cast members for the episode.

The list of names does appear to be an updated one, no longer including Stephen Dillane (Stannis) or Nell Tiger Free (Myrcella). Last year’s main cast listing included the Martell storyline actors from the season premiere, and they’re not included in this main cast list (though we do know they’re in season 6 at some point). We’ll keep our eyes peeled for any further changes to the HBO schedule.

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369 responses

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    1. I honestly thought he would come back from the dead until I saw this. Kit has really convinced me that he was only filming as a corpse and nothing more. Still, at least we know for sure now.

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    2. *sigh*

      It’s getting silly at this point, Kit. Just tell people no GoT questions because the outright lying is maddening.

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    3. 50 minutes is not cool. Fans have waited 9.5 months for the show to return and we get robbed of 10 minutes right off the bat. I need a drink…

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    4. Glad to see Aidan Gillen 5th in list, we haven’t seen any picture of him and I was getting anxious. He’ll be king! (of the ashes)

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    5. Despite all the evidence I hope they’re not lying and he really is dead and gone. That’s a more interesting story than the journey of a hero.

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    6. HBO PR didn’t even bother removing Kit’s name from the official block of series regulars for the year. Hilarious. Jonathan Pryce now main cast?

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    7. He has less scruples than other cast-members and directors etc., who tend to say “my lips are sealed” or just “he’s dead” rather than the less ambiguous “definitely not in the new series.”

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    8. Making the 8:
      50 minutes is not cool. Fans have waited 9.5 months for the show to return and we get robbed of 10 minutes right off the bat. I need a drink…

      Had to take a second look, wth? This stinks. Sigh…

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    9. Isn’t the running time always announced as 50 minutes, and then the real running time is announced later? I may be misremembering, but I thought so.

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    10. As a book reader and show watcher, I often wonder how show-only fans have pieced together the likelihood of Jon Snow returning. When I read the book, I never assumed that he would stay dead, but I don’t think the show has built him up with nearly as much plot armor as GRRM did. We’ve had so many important characters die; what exactly clued everyone in that this would be the fake-out?

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    11. BTW, Indira Varma is on the list, and she’s the only starring Dorne character, so Dorne IS on the premiere. Unless I’m missing something…

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    12. Luka Nieto,

      I hope you’re right, I don’t recall how the run time has been listed in past seasons. I forget if they include the 1-2 minutes of the “previously on GoT” segment and opening credits.

      Of course we are all greedy bastards praying for a season premiere run time of 65-70 minutes to pour over and dissect. We have a lot of characters to meet and catch up with after all but some will certainly be left out of ep1. (Dorne I’m looking at you)

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    13. 57+ minutes or we riot! …or at least we will have a brief toxic flame war before Silicon Valley or John Oliver starts. Then all will be fine again.

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    14. Making the 8:
      Luka Nieto,

      I hope you’re right, I don’t recall how the run time has been listed in past seasons. I forget if they include the 1-2 minutes of the “previously on GoT” segment and opening credits.

      Of course we are all greedy bastards praying for a season premiere run time of 65-70 minutes to pour over and dissect. We have a lot of characters to meet and catch up with after all but some will certainly be left out of ep1. (Dorne I’m looking at you)

      And of course at the end of the episode there is the ‘inside the episode ‘bit.

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    15. Well, he will be playing a dead person. Just a particularly mobile one. I don’t see the issue here.

      As others noted, Indira is on that list.

      e: also, damn! Nearing 50 days. I thought of doing one of those ‘watch an episode every day’ things.

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    16. Jeb,

      Maybe the clue is that he’s kinda dead, or undead, or a living dead like Beric Dondarion.
      Than what he said would be actually true.

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    17. I know some people don’t like the lying, but I find it amusing, and kind of respect that Kit has kept it up for the most part.

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    18. Alayne:
      Glad to see Aidan Gillen 5th in list, we haven’t seen any picture of him and I was getting anxious. He’ll be king! (of the ashes)

      oh yes, me too! phew!

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    19. I’m a bit sad that we only get a 50 minutes premiere, especially considering that they have so many things to pack in it, as season 6 ended with cliffhanger galore.
      Now… what do I have to do for HBO to release that damn trailer, the wait is getting really hard to handle. 🙁

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    20. “Look, I’m not in the show any more.”

      I think this puts to rest any notion of him returning, even as a living corpse. Might be time to face a little reality: Those spy reports were wrong, the spy footage of him was just Kit stretching his legs between shots, and he’s off the show.

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    21. Seriously this constant denial is insulting, and if somebody truly believes that he’s dead then they’re bloody idiots.

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    22. This is something. Noone so far has straight up said he definitely won’t be in the new season.

      So perhaps he’ll do a Bran, and come back in season 7, or even 8. I can’t imagine he’ll never come back.

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    23. Ravyn,

      LOL. Good one. Kit just took several months off to travel to the GOT sets and get fitted for a new, non-Nights Watch costume. He’s lying, and that’s okay. If he can fool even 20 percent of the fandom then he has done his job.

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    24. I find the denial rather amusing at this point. They absolutely cannot spill that he’s coming back. They just can’t. So I think as the season draw’s closer, the lies should get more amusing and outrageous. “I will buy every dog in this charity pound if Jon Snow isn’t dead. Lena Headey will shave her head if Jon Snow isn’t dead.” And so on.

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    25. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I could be getting him confused with another cast member, but wasn’t Kit the one who said he feels like what he gets paid isn’t for the actual work, but for all the press and everything else that comes along with it?

      Anyway, I bet there’s one person looking forward to the season starting even more than any of us are…Kit.

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    26. Cersei’s Brain,

      You cannot E V E R go by the season premiere cast listing on IMDB. Not that IMDB in general is that reliable to begin with.

      But the deal is, when people find out an actor is going to be on the show, whether officially or just rumored, people run and add them to the GoT imdb page. And it pretty much has to go on the first episode because no one knows what episode/s those people will be in this season (usually). So no, all those people will not be in the first episode. That’s just a listing of a ton of people in season 6, period.

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    27. I hope it’s just a brief shot of Illyria Sand getting her head off. Doran can do no less. And her head has to go to Cercei or it’s war….

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    28. Guys, a couple of things based on the cast list on the schedule. I’ve been paying attention to it for every year now and it’s always the same deal:

      1. The episode duration time is subject to change to about a week before the airing of the episode.
      2. The cast listed is the same for every episode in the entire season. For instance, every episode in season 5 included the entire Dornish cast (since they were new I guess) and all starring cast members. So, the presence of Indira Varma does not prove Dorne is in the premiere (though it might be the case, of course). And there hasn’t been a single episode in the entire series that included all starring cast.
      3. Jonathan Pryce and Diana Rigg were listed last year, and in the case of Diana, she has always appeared in main cast lists, yet continues to not appear in the actual episode title sequence. I expect that will continue to be the case.
      4. More interesting is the fact that no returning recurring cast members are listed, indicating that, probably, there will be no promotions this year (last year Tom Wlaschiha was included, for instance).
      5. The inclusion of Kit Harington is quite hilarious based on the other part of this article 😛

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    29. Tootie,

      Yeah, Cersei totally has the means to go to war…

      The Lannister don’t even fully control KL, their alliance with the Tyrells is almost dead, the city is overrun with fanatics.
      You think the Tyrells will go to war with Dorne while Marg and Loras are still awaiting trial.
      War with Dorne is the last thing they should think of.

      This scenario of Cersei, who doesn’t even rule anymore going too war, is in my opinion ridiculous.

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    30. I feel bad for Kit…he has to come up with all of these lies and has to put up with being asked the same thing over and over in almost every interview. I bet he will feel relieved once the season starts ahaha.

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    31. First of all: 50 minutes?! Boooooo!! We need more GoT, not less.

      Second: I don’t know what to make of Kit’s comments. Either he is flat-out lying and he’s gonna have a lot of explaining to do after the resurrection or we’ve all been seriously trolled with the set reports and the leaked pictures. Either way, both possibilities suck.

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    32. I always wonder why reporters don’t ask ‘why still the Jon Snow look?’ According to Kit he desperately wanted to cut his hair once he is done with the show.

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    33. Hey Kit, I appreciate the valiant attempt to create doubt but this is the Song of Ice and Fire, not the Hymn of Lions and Flowers. Unless there is a twin, Jon is the link. 😉

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    34. Luka Nieto,

      I suspect you are correct in some capacity Dorne will be included. I only meant that imo, Dorne did not have enough meat on the bone to be in my top 5 most interesting storylines of season 5. I am not as eager about seeing where they pick up Ep1 as I am to see Winterfell, KL, The Wall, Mereen, Iron Isles, Riverlands, north of the wall, Vaas Dothrak, Bravos, the Eyrie, Highgarden, Bear Island, Skaagos, White Harbor, Deepwood Motte, Summer Isles…

      I love the choice of Siddig as Doran but he is the only one that can save the Dornish storyline. Sand Snakes are just ok character wise (nice to look at though) and Indira is not going to be around very long I reckon. Areo should do something interesting eventually besides standing in the background. Maybe Darkstar will show up!

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    35. I think it’s obvious he is lying, and will return. But I no longer think most of us are correct with the main subscribed to theory either. The long held belief from book readers and in the last year show watchers on how a return may occur, I’m starting to lean towards being wrong and it will be something entirely different. We’ll see though.

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    36. I, for one, am looking forward to Kit’s interviews after Jon returns. I’m sure EW already has an exclusive ready to post the second that episode finishes airing.

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    37. Ravyn,

      Stretching his legs in a Stark outfit on a Saintfield battlefield set? lol What about all the months he’s been in NI and around the GOT sets? Nearly the entire duration of the set production. What about WOTW’s reports? What about him attending the Episode 9 wrap party or GOT S6 wrap party? What about him keeping the Jon Snow look, the one he claimed to hate? What about him not scheduling any other projects when GOT was being filmed?
      Dismiss that just because an actor, whose profession it is to lie, says something? This is a huge plot twist we’re talking about. They need to keep it under wraps, so they will lie and deny until it’s time to reveal it. How can anyone buy this crap the cast and crew are spouting? lmao

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    38. HBO releases the casting list for ep 1 and lo and behold Kit’s ‘explanation’ for his name on it gets released on the same day, what a coincidence…

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    39. Now the wait for the episode titles begins. Thanks to alert people who figured out how to see the premiere in the schedule this early, though.

      Also, great that Kit finally clarified things about S6. It’s settled now 😀

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    40. GOT’s twitter has, seemingly randomly, reposted part of the Hall of Faces teaser with Robb’s quote and face and also the last wall of faces including Tyrion’s. Seeing as their #GOT50 is starting tomorrow, might we get a trailer tonight (or tomorrow) to start it off? Or am I being overly optimistic again? 🙁

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    41. Name *:
      GOT’s twitter has, seemingly randomly, reposted part of the Hall of Faces teaser with Robb’s quote and face and also the last wall of faces including Tyrion’s. Seeing as their #GOT50 is starting tomorrow, might we get a trailer tonight (or tomorrow) to start it off? Or am I being overly optimistic again?

      Nahh, there is no such thing as being overly optimistic.

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    42. 50 minutes is not locked yet. It might change when time is closer to premier. Happened last season and season before that. Maybe even before that, but can’t remember.

      But just wait and see…

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    43. Adam:
      As a book reader and show watcher, I often wonder how show-only fans have pieced together the likelihood of Jon Snow returning.When I read the book, I never assumed that he would stay dead, but I don’t think the show has built him up with nearly as much plot armor as GRRM did.We’ve had so many important characters die; what exactly clued everyone in that this would be the fake-out?

      The unresolved R + L = J, foreshadowed in both books and show. That’s perhaps the biggest theory in the series, the linchpin that earned D&D the rights for the show. How could that possibly be irrelevant?

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    44. Obviously he (Kit) is tired of the same question again and again and again( like all the cast, directors, etc, etc..) 😉

      50 minutes..??? No, please!!! 🙁

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    45. Making the 8,

      Oh please no Darkshit,anyone but him,how can people claim that the Sand Snakes are terrible yet this walking definition of terrible character is liked ? Let him and his atrocious dialogue rest along Stoneheart,Quentyn Martell and the other characters who thankfully will not appear in the show . Martin tried to make him a badass character and he turned out the exact opposite,ironically the same thing that people criticised D&D for doing it with the Sand Snakes but of course Martin is our Lord and Saviour and he can’t be criticised .

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    46. Has Kit been presented with a copy of Mormont’s sword as his goodbye gift from D&D just as Ygritte was presented with an engraved bow on her final day of shooting? Where’s the sentimental D&D & GRRM chat about the great character Kit played as Jon Snow? Kit also hasn’t wistfully spoken about the end of his character or commented about his story arc, past to present, as other actors have after leaving the show. Was there a Jon Snow “Beautiful Death” poster?

      The actors whose characters have died freely speak about their time in the GoT world. This is starkly (see that?) missing from Kit dialogue.

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    47. Making the 8,

      Sorry but he is probably my most hated character in the series,screw the Boltons,Lannisters,Freys or whoever,this guy needs to get it and needs to get it quick . Half of my hatred for AFFC is because of him .

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    48. 50-min runtime my ass. What a bunch of bullshit. I bet if we added up every minute not used to make each episode 60 minutes, we’d have like 1.5-2 extra episodes!

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    49. To be honest the casting list doesn’t seem right…there is no way Dormer to agree to be so low listing, Kit also and Nikolaj also got downgraded, unless they changed the listing ( especially for Kit there is no reason since he is really important character to go after Jorah and since he along with Nik,Lena,Peter and Emilia are called A tier)….i think there will be changes.

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    50. phantomstrife:
      Ravyn,

      Stretching his legs in a Stark outfit on a Saintfield battlefield set? lol What about all the months he’s been in NI and around the GOT sets? Nearly the entire duration of the set production. What about WOTW’s reports? What about him attending the Episode 9 wrap party or GOT S6 wrap party? What about him keeping the Jon Snow look, the one he claimed to hate? What about him not scheduling any other projects when GOT was being filmed?

      I think what Jon might actually be hinting at is that he’s a living corpse. Dead and alive. He even said, “I know how long I’m a corpse for, but I can’t tell you that!” For the next three seasons, of course.

      There are still lies about having no clue on Season 6 and, “Look, I’m not in the show any more. I’m definitely not in the new series.”

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    51. The other thing about Jon being spotted in full Stark gear is where does he get it from? He’s been the man in black for years. It suggests a trip to a loyal Stark bannerman and that suggests several scenes.

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    52. Tyrion the Myrions,

      I wouldn’t describe my feelings toward his character as hatred but he was laughable to say the least. My opinion is firm that Doran is the only thing that can save the Dornish storyline

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    53. Can’t wait until this Jon Snuh ded? farce is over. The interviewers know the cast can’t spoil things like that but they keep pestering them about them anyway. Makes them look like assholes.

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    54. Sullied by Knight,

      as in liar? (like he says “im dead, but im really in the show) *starts drinking as she reads this*
      or lies dead…
      cos you know i just desperately want jon snow to be in season six.

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    55. I don’t see how it’s idiotic to think Jon might in fact be dead when the actor has said as much himself… though I definitely don’t *want* to believe that’s the case. So much intrigue snuffed out in a single blow (or multiple stab wounds, as the case may be.)

      But I’m too new to the fandom to know the likelihood of those set photos being HBO trolling. Is there a precedent for that??

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    56. Maybe Jon will get resurrected as Harry Lloyd?

      D&D have proved they are not afraid to recast.

      Lol

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    57. Adam,

      In both the books and the show, the story just breaks down with Jon dead and gone. Jon’s lineage no longer matters. There’s no longer anyone on the Wall who cares about the White Walkers. There’s no point in the resurrection magic we’ve been introduced to, which Milesandre’s priestesshood is connected to.

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    58. Perhaps Jon Snow is dead – perhaps he is filming a death scene. Perhaps Kit wanted to stay on and be an extra (helmed of course) for the battle scene?

      I’m not expecting him to be back.

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    59. Speculation on the show based on major book spoilers:

      So based on no Aegon, Quentyn or Arianne casting it looks like the show is skipping the entire Dance of Dragons 2.0 plot. So the show needs to achieve the outcome of the Dance without actually having it.
      I feel pretty certain that these things will happen during/because of the Dance: 1) Arianne and Aegon will join forces and unseat the Lannisters in KL. 2) Doran will die, leaving Arianne in charge of Dorne for better or worse. 3) A Martell/Lannister war disguised as a Targaryen/Baratheon war will wreck a lot of the South. 4) Ironborn will also cause their share of destruction.
      The show has to make serious cuts, so I predict:
      1) Doran will die, probably of natural causes, early in S6, before he can have Elaria executed; if he knows he’s on his deathbed he may even legitimize a Sandsnake just so that there will be an heir and at least avoid Dornish civil war. Maybe he even condemns Elaria and the Sandsnake pardons her. Something like that. Upshot is Elaria doesn’t die and in fact is effectively left in charge (due to no other legitimate heirs). 2) Trystane will be pushed off the boat (fingers crossed) or imprisoned/executed on suspicion of helping poison Myrcella. 3) Leaving Elaria/Sand Snakes in charge of Dorne 4) Elaria (or the new Princess of Dorne) and Cercei (er, I mean King Tommen) will gleefully declare war on each other. 5) So we get the Martell/Lannister war anyway, + Ironborn shenanigans.

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    60. Why do they even bother anymore? We have all seen the set photos, it’s just silly by now and probably one of the worst kept secrets in television history…

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    61. Blind Beth,

      I just don’t understand why some fans think that Dance of Dragons 2.0 must be between Dany and fAegon. I think it will be between Jon and Dany, and YG is just a good red herring.

      Actually, when I think about that he is a great red herring, because 90% of fans think that Dance of Dragons 2.0 will be with him and Dany.

      If YG is really a Blackfire, a war with him can’t be a Dance of Dragons . That was a civil war between Targaryens.

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    62. I’m really so tired of that jon snow being dead talk. Seriously. To the point that I almost want him to stay dead.

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    63. OH, I’d forgotten about that White Walker. Weren’t we trying to get him a date at some point?

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    64. They released a shortened HoF teaser today lmao. They are just going to keep cherry picking that teaser aren’t they.

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    65. Jack Bauer 24,

      Lmao, yup. I saw the same one a couple days ago. I highly doubt that there will be a full trailer, and i accept that. Besides, not much longer now until the season starts.

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    66. Kingslayer:
      Jeb,

      Would you also believe it if I told you Obama was actually a woman? Seriously, how gullible can you be? If you really think Kit is telling the truth, you’re not too bright.

      Kingslayer:
      I don’t see how it’s idiotic to think Jon might in fact be dead when the actor has said as much himself…

      ?

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    67. This is Benedict Cumberbatch and Christoph Waltz all over again. I hate it when actors blatantly lie. All they need to do is say “no comment”.

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    68. Ginevra: The unresolved R + L = J, foreshadowed in both books and show.That’s perhaps the biggest theory in the series, the linchpin that earned D&D the rights for the show.How could that possibly be irrelevant?

      I don’t think it’s irrelevant. It’s the main reason why I believe he’s not DEAD dead, but then again I read the books. I don’t think the mystery of his parentage has been discussed on the show at all since Season 1, which is one of the reasons why I’m curious that show-only fans are just as convinced as the rest of us that he is still alive (or soon to be resurrected).

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    69. Matthew:
      Adam,

      In both the books and the show, the story just breaks down with Jon dead and gone. Jon’s lineage no longer matters. There’s no longer anyone on the Wall who cares about the White Walkers. There’s no point in the resurrection magic we’ve been introduced to, which Milesandre’s priestesshood is connected to.

      If no lineage matters, then why the Tower of Joy?

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    70. Connor:
      I feel bad for Kit…he has to come up with all of these lies and has to put up with being asked the same thing over and over in almost every interview. I bet he will feel relieved once the season starts ahaha.

      Yeah, it’s not his fault. HBO/D&D/Producers need to let him off the hook a bit at this point or give him a better script to stick to. He should really be going with the “Jon Snow is rocks on the eyes dead” and when pushed, just say “tune in for my funeral” or something like that. If people push him beyond that, they’re the a-holes, not him.

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    71. mau,

      Just because YG/Aegon whatever you wanna call him is not on the show, doesn’t mean his role in the books is irrelevant and yes Dance will be most likely between them ,as Daeny needs to slay one of lies from Hotu. Bound to happen. You really think Jon would fight Daeny for iron throne or what? He knows what is at stake here ans as far as we know not interestd in throne by any chance. That George will let two main protagonist to fight each other when there is something bigger at the stake? Nah. This is like Jon joining ww and fighting Daeny. No these two will not fight each other.

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    72. Well I don’t expect him to all of a sudden to flip the script and start spouting that it was all a joke and he’s alive. Hes holding his ground. “words are wind”

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    73. The nasty bits,

      The Nasty Bits, YES!!! I thought everyone gave up on Vinyl already. I really enjoy that show but unfortunately I don’t know anyone who is still watching and they are only 4 episodes in. My wife gave up on it after only seeing the premiere like she did with The Leftovers. When she sees me watching either she still asks tons of questions about what’s going on though. Drives me crazy

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    74. Making the 8:
      The nasty bits,

      The Nasty Bits, YES!!! I thought everyone gave up on Vinyl already. I really enjoy that show but unfortunately I don’t know anyone who is still watching and they are only 4 episodes in. My wife gave up on it after only seeing the premiere like she did with The Leftovers. When she sees me watching either she still asks tons of questions about what’s going on though. Drives me crazy

      You’re not alone. I absolutely love Vinyl.
      “Rock n’ roll man, if you like it, you can’t help but move to it.”

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    75. Adam,

      I haven’t read the books or ANY spoilers and managed to come up with R+L theory as well

      But this interview makes me worried now
      What if it was a red herring ?

      Ugh. I would be so pissed if he doesn’t come back

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    76. Making the 8,

      I wasn’t too crazy about the first episode but really enjoyed the second. Maybe she could give it another shot. Although…I haven’t watch the third episode yet…..but I will. 🙂

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    77. Maggie,

      Maggie:
      To be honest the casting list doesn’t seem right…there is no way Dormer to agree to be so low listing, Kit also and Nikolaj also got downgraded, unless they changed the listing ( especially for Kit there is no reason since he is really important character to go after Jorah and since he along with Nik,Lena,Peter and Emilia are called A tier)….i think there will be changes.

      Ahem…alphabetical order…

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    78. Ravyn:
      “Look, I’m not in the show any more.”

      I think this puts to rest any notion of him returning, even as a living corpse. Might be time to face a little reality: Those spy reports were wrong, the spy footage of him was just Kit stretching his legs between shots, and he’s off the show.

      So the shot of him with Stark armor and a sword was what? A publicity stunt? The multiple trips to Belfast this year? And was about his, LOL, hair? Kit has publicly said he hates his Jon Snow ‘do, and yet he’s still wearing it, so, what gives?

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    79. Pounce:
      Yeah…no sign of a trailer coming soon. Damn it. The long winter continues

      Yea, no episode title in the TV listing, no screeners for critics, and, I increasingly fear, perhaps also NO trailer this year.

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    80. Making the 8,

      I’m digging it so far, the 1st ep played out cinematically like a movie, really good imo. I haven’t caught the latest one yet….. Plenty of stuff to watch until HBO’S magnum opus drops

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    81. George,

      I don’t think episode titles, even for the first episode, have ever appeared this early. I’m sure, if I’m wrong, someone will correct me.

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    82. mau:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      There can be many reasons why would Dany and Jon fight. But they are Targaryens. YG is not. I believe.

      Jon wasn’t interested in being LC either.

      I don’t get it when I read some comments like this. If R + L = J, then he’s a Targaryen bastard. If Aegon is a Blackfyre, then he’s descended from a Targaryen bastard. They both have Targaryen blood, but not the name. (Unless you believe R married L, or Argon isn’t even a Blackfyre, in which case ignore me).

      It’s the same thing that throws me with the stance some people have of ‘Jon Snow is dead, Jon Targaryen will live!!1!’ Who exactly do they think will legitimise this Targaryen bastard? Stark bastard or Targaryen bastard, he’s still a bastard son with no claim to anything. While finding out his true parentage will be important, some people seem to think it will make a whole bunch of stuff happen as if by magic.

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    83. George,

      There’s still two days to look forward to :

      March 15th for the release of the Season 5 Blu-Ray/DVD
      or
      in March 21st during the Apple conference (like they did with Trailer #2 last year)

      If we get nothing by then, it will never come.

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    84. I always think about what GRRM said about a LotR ending. Like frodo never recovered from his wound. I can completely see this is the case with Jon never feeling alive or completely normal or happy. Like an outcast. So a corpse he maybe. A very much animated corpse

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    85. We don’t need actors to play corpses. It costs the production company less to fabricate an actual dead version than it does to pay the actor to be in the episode. LOL.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Can’t help noticing that Kit said he’s not in the new SERIES, not the new SEASON. Did he just misspeak, or could that have been a calculated choice of words?

      I’m also wondering whether the producers might’ve deliberately given McShane the go-ahead to spill the beans on the Hound coming back, just as a diversionary tactic to throw the fandom off obsessing over Jon.

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    87. So Kit, you’re not coming back at all?? Except as a corpse. Really NOT what I want to hear!?
      So why the mystery of Jon’s mom??
      Why even bother to reveal the whole Tower of Joy story. No need to know now who his mom was! It just doesn’t make sense…
      I guess that means no battle of the bastards then either. Ugh
      I’m frustrated lol. ? Kit, you just broke my heart ?

        Quote  Reply

    88. Geralt of Rivia,

      I also think that eventually Jon and Dany will make an alliance and seal it with marriage, if any parallel to the War of Roses is still valid. However, before that there will be some rivalry for the Iron Throne, because as soon as Jon is revealed as a legitimate Targarian (IMO he has to be legitimate, otherwise it makes no sense), he will have to claim the Iron Throne to unite the Seven Kingdoms against the White Walkers. By the beginning of S7 he will have the North, the Riverlands and the Vale on his side and he will need Highgarden, too. Margeary who will be already a widow by that time will see a new chance for royal marriage and go after Jon – she was already married to a gay, a sadist, and a worthless boy, so a “living corpse” won’t be a problem. Margeary’s plans will prevent Jon from proposing to Dany, who also may betroth to Tristane to win Dorne on her side, and all these complications will drive the plot of S7. How do you like my crasy fiction? I think it’s rather good.

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    89. Sue the Fury,

      Thanks. I was way too lazy to check.

      So, if time before the premiere is consistent with last year, we still have a couple of weeks to wait.

      Firannion,

      I think Americans use the term “season,” and those across the pond use the term “series.” At least I’ve noticed that tendency.

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    90. So he knows how long he’s a corpse for but he’s not allowed to say. Corpses don’t normally have a choice, they stay corpses.

      Lol.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Haven’t those reddit spoilers been discussed to death already or am I just cranky?

      I need to steal Cersei’s wine and look through photos of McShane.

        Quote  Reply

    92. haha i’ll give HBO this, I love watching people second guess themselves XD at this point I just want an episode title or two to be leaked. that’s all, they can keep their trailer if they have it or not. lol

        Quote  Reply

    93. Firannion:
      Can’t help noticing that Kit said he’s not in the new SERIES, not the new SEASON. Did he just misspeak, or could that have been a calculated choice of words?

      “Series” is how they say “Season” in the UK.

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    94. Kit saying words is much less important than the cast list we just got.

      Indira Varma is on the cast list actually so maybe other Dorne actors are featured but maybe they just did not made to the cast list? I mean no other actors from Bran’s storyline made it either. So does anyone know who has to be credited here? Partially it is a contract issue but for example Roose’s actor is before Ramsay’s even though Ramsay is bigger character. So does that mean Roose has a bigger part in this episode or is it just a coincidence in which order some actors are put? Or is this in order of appearance list? But the only thing we really found out is that apparently we get every location for the premiere. I assumed Sam and Gilly or Jorah and Daario could be left out, but apparently not.

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    95. Maggie,

      For the first 3 seasons Kit was always behind Iain and Aiden in the credits. It wasn’t until season 4 that he got upgraded. And the only other change is that Nikolai is now behind Emilia, but that’s not really odd. She does seem to have a “bigger name” these days than him.

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    96. Do some actually read what’s presented to them before shouting odds? It seems more shout without really taking in information.
      Runtime of 50 minutes.
      Would that be with breaks for adverts, which stands at around 16-18 minutes per hour? By the method of reckoning some appear to use, that would equate to a runtime, on video (on-demand, digital, dvd, blu ray), of…. Do the math. You’d come to 32-34 minutes.
      Insert the adverts into the time stated. What do you get? Showtime would be…. between 66 & 68 minutes. As you’ve lapsed over the hour, add in an appropriate amount for ads. Are you now back to what is the usual length of the show as seen on TV anywhere, globally?

      BTW – In UK, we don’t get those stupid ‘Last time on…..’ segments. Are you incapable of remembering what took place in the previous episode? HBO seems to believe you are.

      At the other end, we do have ‘Thronecast’, which does flash a teaser for the next episode, if you happen to decide to watch that, at the very end. (Look away…. Now!)

      Kit is good, I’ll give him that. Jon Snow is confirmed as Dead, Dead, Dead. (Maisie’s words.) Move on. Some of us have.

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    97. Maggie:
      To be honest the casting list doesn’t seem right…there is no way Dormer to agree to be so low listing, Kit also and Nikolaj also got downgraded, unless they changed the listing ( especially for Kit there is no reason since he is really important character to go after Jorah and since he along with Nik,Lena,Peter and Emilia are called A tier)….i think there will be changes.

      El-Bobby:
      Maggie,

      For the first 3 seasons Kit was always behind Iain and Aiden in the credits. It wasn’t until season 4 that he got upgraded. And the only other change is that Nikolai is now behind Emilia, but that’s not really odd. She does seem to have a “bigger name” these days than him.

      The A tier cast in that photo is listed in alphabetical order (with Turner and Williams apparently being promoted to A tier (B and C tier follow them). G comes before H. They only put Lena ahead….I imagine they’re trying to downplay Kit’s role and insist he’s coming back as a corpse and that’s it lol. Dormer is B tier.

      As for credit order in the intro, I imagine there are probably numerous factors involved (how big the role is, how reputed the actor is, what the actor’s team negotiated in the contract etc.). Kit was a newcomer, so of course he would be behind some of the other actors, with his storyline becoming more and more important as the seasons progressed. The show also placed way more emphasis on King’s Landing than on the Wall (especially in the early seasons).

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    98. I don’t see why people are all upset about the lying. What choice is there? The internet has made it impossible to keep it under wraps that Kit was filming. They’re forced into choices. They can either blatantly spoil their own twist. Or they can lie. The latter choice is clearly the lesser of two evils since exciting plot twists are a huge part of why people watch in the first place.

      What do people want them to do? And no, refusing to discuss the show isn’t an option because they have to promote it.

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    99. Chinoiserie:
      Kit saying words is much less important than the cast list we just got.

      Indira Varma is on the cast list actually so maybe other Dorne actors are featured but maybe they just did not made to the cast list? I mean no other actors from Bran’s storyline made it either. So does anyone know who has to be credited here? Partially it isa contract issue but for example Roose’s actor is before Ramsay’s even though Ramsay is bigger character. So does that mean Roose has a bigger part in this episode or is it just a coincidence in which order some actors are put? Or is this in order of appearance list? But the only thing we really found out is that apparently we get every location for the premiere. I assumed Sam and Gilly or Jorah and Daario could be left out, but apparently not.

      Last season Indira was the only Dorne actor in the opening (I imagine it’s a result of her role getting expanded). I think everyone else was guest starring.

      As for the rest: it could be that Roose’s actor is more reputed than Ramsay’s. You’re all looking too much into this tbh. It’s just a list that tells you who’s in the episode.

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    100. mau,

      Is it? The only thing that this site has confirmed about Rickon is also confirmed by this person (it’s his #10). That does not mean the rest is true, just that it does not contradict what we know so far. Or did I miss something?

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    101. “Look, I’m not in the show any more. I’m definitely not in the new series,”

      He obviously doesn’t read WotW.

        Quote  Reply

    102. It’s very weird though. The typical words are “Jon snow is dead” but here he is saying he/kit is not in it….

        Quote  Reply

    103. Eternal,

      No, they are probably normal people who are not as obsessed as we are with spoilers and everything GoT-related. I’m inclined to say that is the majority of the TV show watchers?

        Quote  Reply

    104. Wow…

      50mins…

      WTF is that? We will get about 3mins of a season 5 refresher and 2mins of the opening sequence and about 1min of closing credits.

      So the season premier (new footagewise) is going to be like what… 40mins, if that…

      That breaks my heart… It better be a freaking awesome 40mins, then I will be happy but still, I understand D&D messed up how long each episode should run during the first season but its season 6 now, we want a full 55+mins per episode!!!

      GRRRRR! LOL!

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    105. Poor Kit, he is forced to lie. But, come on, there is so much evidence he will come back. The only thing that could bother me is if it takes too long for the resurrection. I hope it happens in the second episode, so that we are not spoiled by the people that is going to watch the season premiere at the beginning of april.

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    106. Weirwood Nut,

      You are absolutely right!

      It is difficult to understand how one of the main and most beloved characters, whose actor is one of the most recognizable faces of the show, would finish his run with no glory, getting the “you’re done” or “get the f**ck out here” treatment. Makes no sense…

      After all, he…
      -has been praised by many of his co-stars as a nice guy and team member (I particularly recall Owen Teele’s and John Bradley’s heartfelt words about him),
      -In his private life he hangs around and keeps in touch with current and past cast members like Richard Madden, NCW, Alfie Allen and Rose Leslie ;
      -has been praised by stunts and stunt coordinators and directors as a great action portraying actor;
      -the producers have said a lots of good things about him for years;
      -he has publicly defended GRRM when people complain about his slow writing, and GRRM has invited him to talk at length with book and show fans gathered at GRRM’s theater….

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    107. GhostCR: I’m inclined to say that is the majority of the TV show watchers?

      And probably a big majority of TV show watchers. We should all look at it this way: how closely do you follow TV shows when they are not being aired? Most people do not follow any TV shows that they watch beyond watching them. After all, a lot of people are more interested in following sports teams or films or something like that: and the type of people watching cable TV series do not have time for more than one or two obsessions on the side.

      At any rate, this pill is a lot easier for Joe and Jane Viewer to swallow than we fans credit. The show already has killed off a lot of major characters. Of course, none of the killed characters have been as prominent as Jon. However, because the show made characters such as Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon much more prominent than they are in the books, this gap is less obvious to show-viewers than to book-readers.

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    108. Jeb,

      No, we don’t. He has been seen wearing Stark clothes. Who would lut Stark clothes pn his corpse? Didn’t convince me.

        Quote  Reply

    109. So, most contacts include these pesky little NDA things; meaning that at least until the season starts, all interviews should be taken with a grain of salt… Or an entire shaker. TWD did the same thing with their poorly executed fake-out.
      Kit, and the rest of the cast, have to “lie,” that’s the biz. George may like to break our hearts, but killing Jon would simply be poor story-telling. No matter how badly he wants to disregard the tropes of classic mythology, he is still bound to them, to some extent.
      To be clear, I’m not just in fan-favorite denial; Jon always fell behind Arya and Bran for me in the books, and I am a huge fan of Barristan in book and show. Characters have to serve a purpose, at least main characters, and Jon’s purpose has not yet been fully executed.

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    110. HBO probably threatened to cut off his manhood and feed it to the goats if he gave any hint of being resurrected so of course he’s going to keep up the act. I’ll be truly shocked if Jon Snow is really dead for good.

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    111. Ravyn:
      “Look, I’m not in the show any more.”

      I think this puts to rest any notion of him returning, even as a living corpse. Might be time to face a little reality: Those spy reports were wrong, the spy footage of him was just Kit stretching his legs between shots, and he’s off the show.

      Stretching his legs in a field with Stark armor on? And at Winterfell with Sansa? In fact footage we haven’t seen of him is as a fully dead corpse. And he’s been quoted as saying he’d be on the show into his 30’s and he’s 29 now. HBO said there will be two more seasons so it pretty much means he should be in it up to the last season if not to the end of it.

      And just to add, if he truly is dead, why bother with the TOJ scene? Unless they are going to say that R+L=D but there just hasn’t been enough in the show or books to lead me to believe that. Even before I read tbe books I had the biggest feeling that Jon was an endgame character. When I read the books, they confirmed my belief. But, that’s just my opinion 🙂

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    112. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I could be getting him confused with another cast member, but wasn’t Kit the one who said he feels like what he gets paid isn’t for the actual work, but for all the press and everything else that comes along with it?

      Anyway, I bet there’s one person looking forward to the season starting even more than any of us are…Kit.

      Yes, he said that when he, John B, and D&D did a Q&A at Oxford.

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    113. Arthur: So the season premier (new footagewise) is going to be like what… 40mins, if that…

      And potentially, we’ll get all of this:

      BEYOND THE WALL – Hodor, Bran flashbacks to Young Nan & Young Hodor.
      THE WALL – Jon funeral, Edd, Tormund, Alliser. Melisandre & Davos discussion.
      BRAAVOS – Blind Arya, Jaqen.
      WESTEROS – Sam & Gilly travel south.
      KING’S LANDING – High Sparrow, Margaery, Olenna, Tommen, Bronn, Trystane. Mountain & Cersei await Jaime & Myrcella at dock.
      DORNE – Ellaria
      MEEREEN – Starving mom & baby frightened by Tyrion w/Varys & Missendei. Yezzan.
      DOTHRAKI SEA – Dothraki take Dany hostage. Jorah, Daario.
      LAST HEARTH – Osha, Rickon, Smalljon.
      WINTERFELL – Sansa, Theon, Ramsay, Roose, Brienne, Littlefinger.

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    114. OK, part of me hopes that Kit has been telling the truth all along and that he’s only in this season for a couple of funeral scenes. Sure, it will be shitty storytelling, but the level of nerd rage on this board and others would be absolutely EPIC. No R+L=J? No Tower of Joy? No BastardBowl?

      (Better yet, if all of those things are around, but involve Dany instead of Jon)

      The Internet would burn. Please let it happen…

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    115. Nathanbc22:
      I always think about what GRRM said about a LotR ending. Like frodo never recovered from his wound. I can completely see this is the case with Jon never feeling alive or completely normal or happy. Like an outcast. So a corpse he maybe. A very much animated corpse

      I love this train of thought. I could definitely see that. That being said, I believe its been mentioned before about the difference in bringing a warg from their animal back into their body compared to Beric’s kind of resurrection. Jon may come back feeling nirmal and complete and whole. But given the show hasn’t really ficused on Jon’s warging abilities like the books did, maybe he will just be resurrected and feel less as Beric did each time he was brought back. We’ll see….its so close, yet seems so far away, lol.

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    116. Ravyn,

      This is what I’ve been afraid of; I’m worried that everyone has read too much into everything and when we get to season 6 we’re all going to be so disappointed!

        Quote  Reply

    117. raw_bean: It’s the same thing that throws me with the stance some people have of ‘Jon Snow is dead, Jon Targaryen will live!!1!’ Who exactly do they think will legitimise this Targaryen bastard? Stark bastard or Targaryen bastard, he’s still a bastard son with no claim to anything. While finding out his true parentage will be important, some people seem to think it will make a whole bunch of stuff happen as if by magic.

      Unless the theory of Robb legitimising and naming him as the heir to Winterfell comes up. But I don’t reall think the show had alluded to that enough. And given past Targaryen polygamy, its possible Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. It could go either way, or none at all I suppose. But I can’t imagine him being brought back to life and showing his parentage (and amazingly powerful bloodline) and him not be politically important to the story.

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    118. JCDavis: *heaves self up and into the boat again*Thanks for the save back there.

      And if JS doesn’t come back, here is my vision of the internet:

      https://i.imgur.com/u3lWwh.jpg

      I’ve always loved that gif! lol
      And just another thought. Why have him as the focus in the seadon 6 poster if he’s just appearing as a dead guy for a few minutes before burning away to nothing.
      If everyone and everything’s aim is to give me anxiety almost to the point of craziness then they’ve done their job. By April 24th I’ll be watching the premier in a straightjacket at my local psychiatric hospital.

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    119. As far as his much speculated screen time is concerned for season 6, I would say of you go on Kit’s contract alone, he will probably be in 8 to 9 episodes. He has always been in 8 episodes from seasons 1-4, and then 9 in season 5. If Kit’s contract with HBO is still similar untill the end, then let’s assume he will be back (if he’s not in fact, really dead!) for most of the season. A someone pointed out, Jon needs to get stark gear from a trusted bannerman. Relationships of trust and allegiances will have to be built, also considering there is evidence of a big battle coming up. There needs to be some sort of build-up, as well as scenes of him coping with a near-death / out of body experience. So he might be resurrected as early as episode two.

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    120. scififantasygirl: I’ve always loved that gif! lol
      And just another thought. Why have him as the focus in the seadon 6 poster if he’s just appearing as a dead guy for a few minutes before burning away to nothing.
      If everyone and everything’s aim is to give me anxiety almost to the point of craziness then they’ve done their job. By April 24th I’ll be watching the premier in a straightjacket at my local psychiatric hospital.

      The official Season 6 poster is the Hall of Faces one. Not the Jon one from November.

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    121. Jeb:
      I honestly thought he would come back from the dead until I saw this. Kit has really convinced me that he was only filming as a corpse and nothing more. Still, at least we know for sure now.

      But then what would be the explanation for the scenes filmed of he, Sansa and Littlefinger arguing with Ramsay, with Jon in Stark colors and a giant present?

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    122. And to add, he will have to do quite a lot of justification to more than one Northern Lord as to why he lead the Wildings through the gate, and why Northerners should particiapte with their longstanding enemy in the same army. What happened at Hardhome and witnesses from Hardhome will probably play an important role here (which is probably also why they dedicated a lot of time to it in the previous season). In the show, Jon travelled to Hardhome himself and we see Jon witness the Night’s King, as well as his power, which could make his case of coming Winter stronger, if he comes into contact with other Northern Lords later, in the show universe. So, I also agree that he can’t be anything else than an important political player in the end-game, his parentage non-withstanding.

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    123. Have you guys forgotten what was said in that Oxford Union meeting with D & D and Kit Harington and John Bradley back in March 2015 before Season 5 was aired?

      When asked by someone in the audience if they could play another part in GOT what would it be, Kit said – “I would like to be a warg – like put myself into a wolf” which caused some laughter – Weiss then said, “Two words for you – “Season Six – Season Six, I’ll leave it at that”.

      So there you go… Forget all the bullshit and crap that been posted about Jon Snow being dead or out of GOT for good.

      He’s coming back, but perhaps for a time has warged into Ghost?

      Here’s the video. Fast forward to 22 minutes into it.

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    124. Black Raven,

      B&W almost certainly were making fun of the fan conjecture: if they were actually going to do that, then: 1) they would have set it up last year; and, 2) they would not have joked about it then.

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    125. Adam: I don’t think [R + L = J is] irrelevant. It’s the main reason why I believe he’s not DEAD dead, but then again I read the books.

      Neither do I, First Man of First Men. I think Jon is safe because R + L = J must be relevant.

      I don’t think the mystery of his parentage has been discussed on the show at all since Season 1, which is one of the reasons why I’m curious that show-only fans are just as convinced as the rest of us that he is still alive (or soon to be resurrected).

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    126. raw_bean: I don’t get it when I read some comments like this. If R + L = J, then he’s a Targaryen bastard. If Aegon is a Blackfyre, then he’s descended from a Targaryen bastard. They both have Targaryen blood, but not the name. (Unless you believe R married L…).

      Most hardcore fans who buy into R + L = J believe R and L are married. And many of us believe that GRRM is smart enough to have a nice resolution to the proof dilemma in mind. Specifically, I believe that there is some documentation or piece of evidence buried in the Winterfell crypts with L that will validate J’s legitimacy. Others believe that HR is the key, although I do think we may need more than just HR’s word.

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    127. Jon Snow's Curling Iron,

      The A-Tier is not in alphabetical order in that picture. If it was then Emilia Clarke would be first.

      And like I said, Kit was always behind Iain and Aiden for the first 3 seasons, so it’s not that odd or unheard of. Maybe they put him back there again because he’s only briefly in the episode, as a corpse or whatever.

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    128. Dwm: No matter how badly he wants to disregard the tropes of classic mythology, he is still bound to them, to some extent.

      GRRM was not trying to buck the tropes of classic mythology: modern character-driven literature has been doing that for 200 years. He said early on that he was trying to buck the tropes of epic fantasy. Now, those were a lot closer to the tropes of classical mythology. However, in many ways, leaving Jon dead would be much closer to an epic fantasy trope, where arbitrary plot twists are so very common, and where character development often is so non-existent that it almost does not matter. But that is why I entirely agree with:

      Dwm: George may like to break our hearts, but killing Jon would simply be poor story-telling.

      It definitely would be for the type of story that GRRM seems to be writing. If he just throws away 4 novels of character evolution like that, then the overall story is going to be a lot less coherent.

      Blind Beth,
      The lack of casting might mean that this will not be a major plot in Winter, but instead some pointless side-trek. I will be really surprised if anything from Dorne turns out to be relevant in the end: for all of GRRM’s stated desire to avoid fantasy cliches, I very much fear that he’s falling into the different fantasy cliche of worldbuilding for the sake of worldbuilding.

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    129. Firannion:
      Can’t help noticing that Kit said he’s not in the new SERIES, not the new SEASON. Did he just misspeak, or could that have been a calculated choice of words?

      It’s a Brit thing: we say “season” and they say “series.”

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    130. Wilber’s Forza Danza:
      Do some actually read what’s presented to them before shouting odds? It seems more shout without really taking in information.
      Runtime of 50 minutes.
      Would that be with breaks for adverts, which stands at around 16-18 minutes per hour? By the method of reckoning some appear to use, that would equate to a runtime, on video (on-demand, digital, dvd, blu ray), of…. Do the math. You’d come to 32-34 minutes.

      Which HBO do you watch? Mine comes completely without adverts. Well, there are adverts after the runtime finishes and the credits roll, but that isn’t included in the runtime. There is the short “previously on” and intro theme as well as credits, which total two to five minute perhaps.

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    131. El-Bobbie,

      This is not the order in which the casting credits will appear in the actual episode,I think. It’s only the HBO page which has listed the actors in this order. If I am not mistaken, even last year the casting credits mentioned on the HBO page and the actual episodes differed.

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    132. Morna the Witch: And to add, he will have to do quite a lot of justification to more than one Northern Lord as to why he lead the Wildings through the gate, and why Northerners should particiapte with their longstanding enemy in the same army. What happened at Hardhome and witnesses from Hardhome will probably play an important role here (which is probably also why they dedicated a lot of time to it in the previous season).

      Unfortunately for Jon, there would not be any credible witnesses to Hardhome. The Wildlings accounts would mean nothing: obviously they are making up stuff to try to fool the Northerners into letting down their guard. The fact that they choose such an ridiculous story simply shows what a bunch of ignorant savages they are. Jon’s credibility will be borderline non-existent, too: he and any Loyalists with him are in league with the savages, no doubt sick of being in the Watch and/or intent on stealing their own lands and/or whatever they assume motivates Watch deserters.

      M,B&W have hung the “Northerners Hate the Wildlings Intensely” gun on the wall pretty firmly: it would be against their style to not fire it in some way that is particularly unpleasant for the main characters.

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    133. Ginevra: Which HBO do you watch?Mine comes completely without adverts.

      LOL, I’m glad someone asked because I was like “huh?” at that person’s post.

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    134. I don’t get why Kit carries on with this nonsense like people really believe him. Though some posters here seem to? How does he, or anyone that believes him, explain all the scenes he’s been seen filming for season 6? From day 1 his answer should have been that we’ll just have to wait and see.

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    135. Ginevra: The unresolved R + L = J, foreshadowed in both books and show.That’s perhaps the biggest theory in the series, the linchpin that earned D&D the rights for the show.How could that possibly be irrelevant?

      This. Plus he’s set up as the runt, the unimportant bastard, then the talented newcomer disliked by his command. He’s the one set up to learn to understand the Free Folks as such and not wildlings, to see, from his side of the wall, the need to build alliances and make truces. He is on a classic hero’s journey, complete with losing several mentors. Maester Amon’s admonishment to “kill the boy” offered several layers of meaning and foreshadowing, leading into the hero’s own death (which in Hero’s Journey speak usually figurative and shown as the Dark Place).

      Not to mention the all-time definitive proof of survival: no Jon Snow official HBO Beautiful Death poster.

      I sometimes wonder if Kit says “I’m not coming back” as if he’s speaking for the character. In which point, he’s right. The boy was killed. The man who returns will not be that person.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Ghost,

      Yes I want believe desperately that he comes back lol ! But seriously, why lie like that when you can say ” you’ll have to wait and see” or “I can’t talk about that” instead?
      Kit actually saying I’m definitely not in the new series makes me wonder now…
      We will all find out soon enough. ?

        Quote  Reply

    137. Ginevra,

      I watch SKY (Atlantic) in UK. Then I watch again, On-Demand.

      Taking S05 as an example. On-Demand times ranged from 50 to 69 minutes. Why they vary by so much depends on when you watch On-Demand. Some have adverts at various points in and around show. Sometimes I watch the earliest chance possible, which are usually the longer ones, with more adverts.

      Broadcast is always longer when adverts are inserted. That’s the point I was making, which some clearly forget.
      50 minutes is normal, without adverts, for GOT, when it’s On-Demand, Digital, DVD or Blu Ray.

      Check with any hour-length show, you’ll find there’s round 16-18 minutes of ads inserted in sections. Look at any show’s DVD, it’ll be 44 minutes on average.

        Quote  Reply

    138. If we remember well, the giant
      Wun Wun and the rest of wildlings dont fight for anyone.Only Jon can convince them to fight for the north,they have his trust after what happened at hardhome 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    139. Kingslayer:
      Jeb,

      Would you also believe it if I told you Obama was actually a woman? Seriously, how gullible can you be? If you really think Kit is telling the truth, you’re not too bright.

      For the love of God, the guy was being ironic. Stop bashing him.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Wimsey,

      That’s true. Your last comment on the hate gun being hung means there will be some serious conflict, however, I am still trying to understand how this conflict will lead to a possible battle of Snows. Who then will Jon’s supposed army consist of and does this mean most of season 6 will conist of Jon unsuccessfully trying to convince the North to fight for him (if this ends up being his purpose)? The other possibility is that relevant players will somehow get a glimpse of what is really going on beyond the Wall (which I doubt this early on).

      If Jon (and Sansa and co) manages to successfully infiltrate WF (which some leaked sources suggest), who are supporting them? The Vale army?

        Quote  Reply

    141. El-Bobby:
      Maggie,

      For the first 3 seasons Kit was always behind Iain and Aiden in the credits. It wasn’t until season 4 that he got upgraded. And the only other change is that Nikolai is now behind Emilia, but that’s not really odd. She does seem to have a “bigger name” these days than him.

      Look Dormer, NCW and Kit are downgraded in this listing.
      A tier until the seven season is Peter,Lena,Nikolaj,Kit and Emilia and B Sophie,Maisie and Natalie according to the reports we had on their contracts..if they upgraded people i don’t know
      Natalie Dormer is now getting leading roles in movies but she was credit 7 last year and now 17. NCW was 2nd and now 5th and Kit from 5th to 7th.
      Iain Glen went from 14th last year to 6th now. Wow he must have created a huge name.
      Yes i understand that maybe after the tremendous success some people had carrying out franchises *cough* and numerous invitations to parties *cough* they would want to negotiate and be ahead from their colleagues, i am just pointing out there are changes in this listing, i haven’t seen the new credits yet. Yes maybe these changes are to stay for this season.
      I also don’t know if this is some kind of Alphabetical order, yes maybe you are right.
      My point was (and all i wanted to say) is that due to the differences maybe this isn’t an official list yet.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Ravyn:
      “Look, I’m not in the show any more.”

      I think this puts to rest any notion of him returning, even as a living corpse. Might be time to face a little reality: Those spy reports were wrong, the spy footage of him was just Kit stretching his legs between shots, and he’s off the show.

      Exactly. I’m not sure I want to see the reaction around here when the first episode airs and makes it clear he’s staying dead. It’s been a maelstrom of confirmation bias for months, where every piece of news is interpreted as evidence for a resurrection even if it explicitly contradicts it. It never made any sense for the showrunners to say he was staying dead if he wasn’t, or for Kit to do it and continue doing it to this point. If they wanted to stir up interest in the show they would have left it a mystery.

      One oddity though, we already know from the preview pictures that Myrcella’s corpse makes an appearance, but they took Nell Tiger Free off the cast list but not Kit. Presumably Kit’s corpse is on screen a lot more than Myrcella’s.

        Quote  Reply

    143. NinaD,

      That’s not what Aemon meant with the “kill the boy” line, either to his brother or to Jon. Jon killed the boy when he risked pissing off the NW by setting the wildlings free and going on the Hardhome mission.

      Even if resurrection does occur, a major theme of ASOIAF has been that the resurrected version of a person is always inferior to the original person.

        Quote  Reply

    144. crimethink,

      lmao oh you’re going to be so surprised. There has been nothing to contradict Jon’s comeback, not even the cast and crew’s comments (they have only admited Jon’s dead, which is truth since atm he is, it’s that he won’t stay dead and that’s what they have been avoiding to touch upon). All the evidence in the book, the show and from the off-season plus common sense confirm his return. It might not happen in the first episode, but it will in one of the subsequent ones.

      Also why would they need a corpse for a prolonged period of time? If he were to stay a corpse he’d be in the first/one episode only and then they’d move on with the story, like with all the other dead characters.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Ginevra,

      Some proof might be found, but not all people are going to believe that. Yes, it needs more than Howland Reed’s word. Remember when Cersei tore down piece of paper that said Ned should be sitting on Iron Throne as it was Robert’s wish rather than Joffrey.

      His parentage needs to be proven but for wjhat? It looks like is right now secondary, because basically all people are dead, he has no army to back him up, no ambitions to sieze the throne and bigger things to worry about. It might be important if Daeny wants him to continue Targ line, but let’s hope it won’t come down to that and for that both of them will have to survive fight againszt ww.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Some of you are too gullible. A single comment from an actor whose job is to pretend and you start questioning things again, despite all the proof we’ve been given since season 6 started filming. You can’t expect them to give away such a huge plot twist. Refusing to comment is also not an option. They’re actually so obvious in their attempts to cover up the twist it’s funny. Doth protest too much. Those actors are contractually obligated to follow the script in the promo campaign. This is Christoph Waltz, Benedict Cumberbatch/J.J. Abrams, Steve Carell-type of a marketing move.

      ‘Words are wind’

        Quote  Reply

    147. I honestly have no idea why people are making so much out of some innocuous comments. I mean, ‘lies’? White lies, at most, made in the spirit of fun.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      You know, every time he comes out with one of these statements, all I can think of is a 2014/06/12 interview he did with Page Six:

      Kit Harington, who plays Jon Snow on “ Game of Thrones,” says rabid fans push him for details of future episodes, but he refuses or lies to throw them off.

      “It’s the funniest when you lie and say something like, ‘So-and-so dies next episode,’ and they go, ‘Really?’ ” he told us . . .

      Granted, lying to ‘rabid’ fans is a bit different than lying to an interviewer, but still, not only is he capable of lying, he’s been known to enjoy it.

        Quote  Reply

    149. Wilber’s Forza Danza:
      Ginevra,

      I watch SKY (Atlantic) in UK. Then I watch again, On-Demand.

      Taking S05 as an example. On-Demand times ranged from 50 to 69 minutes. Why they vary by so much depends on when you watch On-Demand. Some have adverts at various points in and around show. Sometimes I watch the earliest chance possible, which are usually the longer ones, with more adverts.

      Broadcast is always longer when adverts are inserted. That’s the point I was making, which some clearly forget.
      50 minutes is normal, without adverts, for GOT, when it’s On-Demand, Digital, DVD or Blu Ray.

      Check with any hour-length show, you’ll find there’s round 16-18 minutes of ads inserted in sections. Look at any show’s DVD, it’ll be 44 minutes on average.

      Check your GoT DVDS again, you”ll find that all episode are 50 plus mins.

      U.S Network shows run to about 44 mins but as HBO doesn’t have adverts as such an hour long show on HBO is actually the best part of an hour.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Inga,

      Let’s hope it won’t come down to Jon and Daeny marriage. Such an cliche and predictable ending with all the Ice and Fire going around. I know a lot of people can see it or want it but I don’t.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Ginevra,

      Jack is correct actually. The bleeding-Jon poster is a teaser poster, but the Hall of Faces poster is the official poster as we think of it- it’s the key art for season 6, the poster and cover art you’re going to see everywhere.

        Quote  Reply

    152. Black Raven: Well, Weiss sounded pretty convincing when he said “Season 6”.

      That’s called “delivery!” 😉

      Seriously, if either the show or the book were going to do that, then they would have hung that gun on the Wall. The show never hung it, and the book basically hung it and took it down. M,B&W all are pretty Chekhovian in their storytelling: all good stortellers are, and even some bad-ones (who are bad for other reasons).

        Quote  Reply

    153. Angeleno: Granted, lying to ‘rabid’ fans is a bit different than lying to an interviewer, but still, not only is he capable of lying, he’s been known to enjoy it.

      Read Tolkien’s letters if you want to know what rabid fans are like, and just how crazy their questions become.

      My all time favorite example of a rabid fan question was given by Sylvestor McCoy, who played the 7th incarnation of Doctor Who. He said that he was once given a question about the exact nuances of the Doctor’s motivations for a particular scene: a particular scene done 20 years before when the Doctor was played by Patrick Troughton, who had died just a few years before!

      (Another classic is the Simpson’s episode where Homer does the voice of Poochy, an addition to the Itchie and Scratchie show!)

        Quote  Reply

    154. Starkloyalist:
      well i remember about the cross thing, but no the rest

      Sue did confirm it. The whole thing arose from indications that the Umbers are fighting on the side of the Boltons in the Bastard Bowl. This lead to people asserting that if this were true, then the Umbers must turn Rickon over to the Boltons, and that therefore Rickon would be on a cross. Of course, the premise was wrong: the Umbers can side with the Boltons against an outside threat (Wildlings) with every intention of working to undermine the Boltons after that outside threat is eliminated. Real history is littered with such examples: todays allies often are tomorrows enemies.

        Quote  Reply

    155. If Jon isn’t the saviour with sword on fire, then who will it be ?
      Dany doesn’t have a special sword haha

      (Not a book reader so I know less about the religious terminology)

        Quote  Reply

    156. The ONLY person to blame for these people having to lie is GRRM. The only reason that the season ended with his death and not his resurrection is because they wanted George to me the one to reveal it. The book was suppose to be out, but now it’s not and most likely won’t be before next season either.

        Quote  Reply

    157. Deesensfan,

      The hero is called Azor Ahai 🙂
      My guess is Light bringer doesn’t really have to be a flaming sword, or sword is general, just something to use to fight again the white walkers.
      Besides they are doing a great job with the fans, I see a lot of people now a days questioning them selves, or better yet doubting the spoilers they read lol
      Didnt think I was going to have this much fun on the off season 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    158. Also word around town is the two top picks for Trailer dates are
      March 15th the season 5 DVD release date
      March 21st the apple event, where they released the second season 5 trailer last hear.
      Look out for those dates and don’t expect much.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Lady Stark,

      If Kit’s comments have people wondering, he is doing well at his job.

      I still believe that in A Song of Ice and Fire, Jon is the only person who is both ice and fire and will be the key person in the full story until the end.

      ….unless he has a twin sister also hidden as an infant and raised by HR, but I don’t think they’ve hinted at that in the show at all and it’s probably past time for hints to have been dropped.

        Quote  Reply

    160. cozmeesah,

      I don’t think it is fair to be annoyed at him for not admitting to something that he is not allowed to admit. People should stop asking him about it in the first place.

        Quote  Reply

    161. Deesensfan,

      A common theory is that it isn’t a real sword but a metaphorical one.
      And it’s taught that Dany’s dragons are this ”sword”
      But it’s only a theory, even in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    162. Wilber’s Forza Danza:
      Ginevra,

      I watch SKY (Atlantic) in UK. Then I watch again, On-Demand.

      Taking S05 as an example. On-Demand times ranged from 50 to 69 minutes. Why they vary by so much depends on when you watch On-Demand. Some have adverts at various points in and around show. Sometimes I watch the earliest chance possible, which are usually the longer ones, with more adverts.

      Broadcast is always longer when adverts are inserted. That’s the point I was making, which some clearly forget.
      50 minutes is normal, without adverts, for GOT, when it’s On-Demand, Digital, DVD or Blu Ray.

      Check with any hour-length show, you’ll find there’s round 16-18 minutes of ads inserted in sections. Look at any show’s DVD, it’ll be 44 minutes on average.

      The episode runtime above is for the original HBO, the American cable channel, which is the same as HBOGo, but I don’t have access to confirm whether or not that’s the same as HBONow or SKY. These times do include “previously on,” the HBO opener theme, and the closing credits, but nothing else. DVD times would be perhaps 1 minute shorter or maybe 2 if they don’t include the “previously on” part.

      IMDb reports times on all episodes. I’m certain these times do not include advertisements. I’m not certain whether they include “previously on” or not, but very little would change by this addition, at most 1 minute on average.

      The only episodes that are 51 minutes are: Garden of Bones, Rains of Castamere, Laws of God and Men, Mockingbird, The Watchers on the Wall, and Sons of the Harpy. Every other episode is longer. Most are between 54 and 60 minutes with a couple being as long as 64 or 65 minutes.

      Here is the first episode on IMDb. You can see the runtime in the line directly under the big header title of the episode, right after TV-MA. And in the big line below that, to the right, you can click “Next” to move from episode to episode.

      All this said, as others have mentioned multiple times, the 50 minutes here is most likely a placeholder for the real time, which will be at least 50 minutes. Because HBO has updated these 50 minutes in past seasons, we are pretty confident it is just a placeholder.

        Quote  Reply

    163. Adam,

      As a book reader and show watcher, I often wonder how show-only fans have pieced together the likelihood of Jon Snow returning. When I read the book, I never assumed that he would stay dead, but I don’t think the show has built him up with nearly as much plot armor as GRRM did. We’ve had so many important characters die; what exactly clued everyone in that this would be

      Jon’s a top biller…I think his name comes at, or close to, the beginnning of the intro. How are they going to kill off their top biller? Unless, they kill him off and bring him back.

      Jon was introduced right after the opening white-walker sequence. He was in the middle of the frame with Bran standing in front and off to the side of him. He was the first person to speak after the white-walker sequence.

      If producers introduce characters according to importance – like an opening statement of sorts – then show fans can surmise that he’s pretty important.

        Quote  Reply

    164. Deesensfan,

      Be glad you didn’t look at the filing spoilers, your almost completely in the dark.
      Besides even for those who did look, probably don’t even know what they read. Meaning all we have are fragments lol

        Quote  Reply

    165. Geralt of Rivia,

      GRRM is setting Jon up to be the kind of leader who could lead the Seven Kingdoms and lead them well, especially with the help of Tyrion and perhaps Dany. I am sure that the groundwork is being laid for King Snow – even Mormont’s raven says so.

      Will Jon be worried about that before he ends the Long Night? No. Will he be worried about it after? No. Others who recognize goodness and greatness will do that for him, like Sam has already.

      It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well.

        Quote  Reply

    166. Sullied by Knight,

      I have always believed that Jon IS the Song of Ice and Fire
      It would be such a let down if he turns out to be just dead and gone forever. Glad that it won’t be too long now for all of us to find out.
      But you’re right, Kit just about has me believing him.

        Quote  Reply

    167. Sue the Fury,

      Thank you for the clarification, Sue. I wasn’t understanding the use of “official.” I’d assumed that anything formally released by HBO would be official. But if there can be only one official poster, then the teaser wouldn’t be that.

        Quote  Reply

    168. Starkloyalist:
      well i remember about the cross thing, but no the rest

      Sue did confirm it. The whole thing arose from indications that the Umbers are fighting on the side of the Boltons in the Bastard Bowl. This lead to people concluding that if this were true, then the Umbers are on the Bolton’s side in all things and therefore would turn Rickon over to the Boltons, and that therefore^2 Rickon would be on a cross. Of course, the premise was wrong: the Umbers can side with the Boltons against an outside threat (Wildlings) with every intention of working to undermine the Boltons after that outside threat is eliminated. Real history is littered with such examples: todays allies often are tomorrows enemies. Indeed, the Song of Ice and Fire is littered with such examples!

        Quote  Reply

    169. Ginevra,

      I do not know if GRRM shares Rowling’s philosophies on these matters. I do agree that GRRM has set up Jon to be a “worthy” ruler. However, he has done the same for Daeny: both Barristan and Jorah stress that Daeny, unlike most monarchs, would actually be a “good” queen in every sense of the word. So, clearly GRRM does think that someone can seek to be a leader AND be a “good” leader both ethically and effectively.

      I think that a big part of it is that Rowling was writing a “modern” rather than “epic” fantasy, she was able to include modern sociopolitical views. GRRM, on the other hand, is writing a world in which everyone is a “Slytherin”: there is almost no notion that there is any justification for ruling save inheritance and thus almost no republicanism.

      Indeed, where Jon is concerned, nobody is going to consider him a worthy potential rule because he thinks outside of traditional definitions of “sides” or because he should competence and vision as Lord Commander: the only thing that will make people think that he’ll be a worthy leader is a birth certificate and a marriage certificate! (And I’m sure that there would be a lot of “birthers” where either is concerned….. 😀 )

        Quote  Reply

    170. Lady Stark: I have always believed that Jon IS the Song of Ice and Fire

      I agree on the main point, but disagree on the smaller one! I do not think that Jon is the Song: but he (and Daeny) are the two single biggest parts of the Song. More than any other two characters, they are the story.

      But I completely agree with your conclusion: Jon is too big a part of the story to just discard at this point. It really would turn SoI&F into just another “epic” fantasy.

      (For a while, I had wondered if the show might be forced to take Jon out if GRRM had gotten clauses in the contract stating that certain things, like “who is Jon’s mother,” had to come out in the books before they came out on the show. However, it now seems that we will be getting that in Series 6 despite the fact that Winter will not be published yet. Of course, GRRM could also be facing the fact that Winter might not ever be published!)

        Quote  Reply

    171. Wimsey:
      Ginevra,
      However, he has done the same for Daeny: both Barristan and Jorah stress that Daeny, unlike most monarchs, would actually be a “good” queen in every sense of the word. So, clearly GRRM does think that someone can seek to be a leader AND be a “good” leader both ethically and effectively.

      IMO, Dany is a good leader ethically but she is not a wise leader – or at least some of her decisions have not been wise. I believe Jon is both.

        Quote  Reply

    172. Wimsey: I agree on the main point, but disagree on the smaller one! I do not think that Jon is the Song: but he (and Daeny) are the two single biggest parts of the Song. More than any other two characters, they are the story.

      I’m taking a slightly different angle on this. The remaining Starks are “Ice” and the remaining Targ(s) are “Fire”. Jon is the bridge, the link, the song of ice and fire, old gods and red god, wolf and dragon, salt of the earth and lightning in the sky….

        Quote  Reply

    173. Wimsey,

      I feel like I should back up my claims about Dany, at least somewhat. This first post (yes, I know it is from the Site of the Enemy, but not all posters on there are bad) lays out some really good points. I would agree that Dany is a great leader but not a great ruler.

      And I think George loves to play up the differences between being a great leader and a great ruler, as well, as he’s mentioned multiple times in interviews:

      A major concern in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones is power. Almost everybody – except maybe Daenerys, across the waters with her dragons – wields power badly.

      Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

      In real life, real-life kings had real-life problems to deal with. Just being a good guy was not the answer. You had to make hard, hard decisions. Sometimes what seemed to be a good decision turned around and bit you in the ass; it was the law of unintended consequences. I’ve tried to get at some of these in my books. My people who are trying to rule don’t have an easy time of it. Just having good intentions doesn’t make you a wise king.

      http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423#ixzz423eOZdRi

      Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule. So many books don’t do that. There is a sense when you’re writing something in high fantasy, you’re in a dialogue with all the other high fantasy writers that have written. And there is always this presumption that if you are a good man, you will be a good king. [Like] Tolkien — in Return of the King, Aragorn comes back and becomes king, and then [we read that] “he ruled wisely for three hundred years.” Okay, fine. It is easy to write that sentence, “He ruled wisely”.

      What does that mean, he ruled wisely? What were his tax policies? What did he do when two lords were making war on each other? Or barbarians were coming in from the North? What was his immigration policy? What about equal rights for Orcs? I mean did he just pursue a genocidal policy, “Let’s kill all these fucking Orcs who are still left over”? Or did he try to redeem them? You never actually see the nitty-gritty of ruling.

      I guess there is an element of fantasy readers that don’t want to see that. I find that fascinating. Seeing someone like Dany actually trying to deal with the vestments of being a queen and getting factions and guilds and [managing the] economy. They burnt all the fields [in Meereen]. They’ve got nothing to import any more. They’re not getting any money. I find this stuff interesting. And fortunately, enough of my readers who love the books do as well.

      –http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

      Jon might not be as great a leader, especially without dragons, as Dany, but he is a much better ruler. He does a better job on the four points the poster lays out. And I think that George has hinted that Dany struggles and Dany tries while Jon is. Dany has good intentions, but that’s not enough.

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    174. Jeb:
      I honestly thought he would come back from the dead until I saw this. Kit has really convinced me that he was only filming as a corpse and nothing more. Still, at least we know for sure now.

      I’m not sure if you’re serious or joking.. we know he’s lying… that or the photos of him filming battle scenes and such were just misdirection..

      But one thing is for sure.. HBO would NEVER let Kit give facts that clearly … he’s still under contract and non-disclosures

        Quote  Reply

    175. Lady Stark:
      Sullied by Knight,

      I have always believed that Jon IS the Song of Ice and Fire
      It would be such a let down if he turns out to be just dead and gone forever. Glad that it won’t be too long now for all of us to find out.
      But you’re right, Kit just about has me believing him.

      I don’t believe him simply because HBO would be very upset if he let that out and it was true.. he is still under contract, and is still obligated to non-disclosures… he only says what HBO lets him say.. so it’s probably all about the wording..

        Quote  Reply

    176. scififantasygirl,

      Lol! I can visualize the whole straight jacket situation. I’ll probably be there with you in the mental hospital lmao!:).
      if Jon turns out to be just dead and burned to ashes I might have to join a support group haha. At this point it’ll be a bigger shock if he doesn’t get resurected for some.

        Quote  Reply

    177. Sullied by Knight,

      Yeah, it was a joke. I could see someone saying it seriously though, so I’d thought I’d pre-empt them.

      We all know he’s going to come back but HBO are hardly going to admit it. We’ll find out how he comes back sooner rather than later now anyway.

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    178. If Jon gets ressurected and is anything other than what he was b4 he was stabbed, i think i’d prefer he stayed dead.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Lonnie,

      I know the cast can’t say anything. At least not the truth. But some do a great job creating some doubt lol. It’s all mind games.! The Kit in Stark armor picture alone should be sufficient “proof” that he returns.

        Quote  Reply

    180. Adam,

      Yes the show did a great job at giving the notions that he can’t die. Killing a white walker, bringing the wildlings to the the wall… he is written, in the show, as the man to bring everyone together to fight what comes with the winter.

        Quote  Reply

    181. jymion: If Jon gets ressurected and is anything other than what he was b4 he was stabbed, i think i’d prefer he stayed dead.

      Well, Jon should be changed by the event, just as Daeny should be changed by essentially the same event. Both of them should have learned from this that some hatreds run too deep to overcome, and that some people simply cannot see certain groups of peoples as equals.

      That said, Jon should evolve from this, not metamorphose! I agree that the idea of Jon being replaced by AZOR (Azor…. azor….) A-HAI! (a-Hai!…. a-hai….. hai…..) *thunder crackle* with an aura and melting the snow with his bootsteps is just the sort of fantasy cliche that GRRM supposedly is avoiding.

      Ginevra: Jon might not be as great a leader, especially without dragons, as Dany, but he is a much better ruler.

      But didn’t GRRM himself basically point out that Jon & Daeny have the same problems as rulers? Even in that example, he is pointing to both Jon and Daeny, but then citing only Daeny’s examples. Both Jon and Daeny basically advance humanitarian agendas. And people try to assassinate both of them for doing this: Jon for trying to save the Wildlings, and Daeny for trying to free slaves.

      What made Daeny’s and Jon’s Dragon chapters interesting is the fact that both of them were trying to walk that fine line of trying to please and unite two opposing sides against some other enemy. And both run into the same problem: the Nationalists and the Aristocrats cannot let go of the old ways, and they cannot accept that the greater enemy (the Walkers and the rest of Essos) might be a greater danger than Wildlings or free slaves.

      Both of them stumble badly because of this, and both of them are hindered in advancing their agendas because of this: and in the end, the “traditionalist” factions try to kill both of them.

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    182. All i am is a book reader and a show watcher, if i scrutinised every aspect of g0t the way most ppl here do and research and research…i’d probably go insane. its hard enough reading everyones theories without having to think about it

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    183. Wimsey: That’s called “delivery!”

      Seriously, if either the show or the book were going to do that, then they would have hung that gun on the Wall.The show never hung it, and the book basically hung it and took it down.M,B&W all are pretty Chekhovian in their storytelling: all good stortellers are, and even some bad-ones (who are bad for other reasons).

      In that Oxford Union address, D&D and Harington and Bradley had no idea what questions the students would throw at them. When Harington said he would like to ‘warg into a wolf’ and then Weiss said – Two words for you – Season Six – that was pretty spontaneous. Seems he then perhaps realized he shouldn’t have mentioned it and added ‘I’ll leave it at that’.

      So for now I rest my case…

      I have never read the books, but did download the PDF files of them a while ago. In the last ‘Jon’ chapter in aDwD, it reads:

      Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end.
      When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

      In the last scene when he was bleeding in the snow, the screen went black for a few second and then the credits rolled. I reckon the last word he whispered was cut out.

      We all know Harington will be back, but probably not as Jon Snow. The comments he and others have made that ‘Jon Snow is dead’ are probably true, but may return as Jon Stark… Well just have to wait and see 😉

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    184. Black Raven: Weiss said – Two words for you – Season Six – that was pretty spontaneous. Seems he then perhaps realized he shouldn’t have mentioned it and added ‘I’ll leave it at that’.

      Quick-witted people make jokes very quickly. We’ve seen Weiss make lots of fairly sharp jokes in interviews, and a lot of jokes that show some knowledge of what fans think is going to happen.

      On the other hand, we’ve never seen him slip up and accidentally blurt out a big spoiler like that.

      At any rate, the show did nothing to set up this possibility. B&W are very Chekhovian in their approach: this would be the first time that they put in an arbitrary plot twist with no setup.

      So, we can assume that we are seeing more examples of what we’ve already seen a lot of (Weiss showing quick wits that are informed about what fans believe, and the show firing guns only after they’ve been hung on the wall), or we are seeing hitherto unwitnessed events (Weiss letting big show spoilers slip and B&W putting in a major plot twist with zero setup that it could happen). You do not have to be Bill Occam to choose between these models!

      As for how Jon comes back, he will come back as Jon. Being revived will not legitimize him, so it will not make him Jon Stark or Jon Targaryen. He will not mystically transform into some long-lost messiah. He will be Jon Snow but now still further evolved by having learned the very hard way that some people cannot see past their preconceived notions and hatreds. (Some blonde lady far, far away just learned the exact same lesson, too.)

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    185. Wimsey:

      But didn’t GRRM himself basically point out that Jon & Daeny have the same problems as rulers? Even in that example, he is pointing to both Jon and Daeny, but then citing only Daeny’s examples. Both Jon and Daeny basically advance humanitarian agendas. And people try to assassinate both of them for doing this: Jon for trying to save the Wildlings, and Daeny for trying to free slaves.

      GRRM has repeated the theme that “Just having good intentions doesn’t make you a wise king,” and he is using Jon and Dany as examples of this, yes. But one will be an example of good intentions and wise ruler, while the other will be an example of good intentions and not a wise ruler. He wouldn’t explicitly say that now, of course, if he’s hoping it will become obvious later on. But he does point us to think about both Jon and Dany here while only giving hints that Dany has made mistakes, that Dany is struggling, that Dany is trying.

      George was once asked about Jon’s mistakes and his initial gut reaction was that there were none – very telling! The one mistake that Jon did make, which I will definitely agree was a mistake, is more of a personal safety mistake and not a ruling mistake. GRRM explicitly defends Jon’s tough decisions regarding the Wildlings as the wisest decision to make.

      When I asked Martin what was Jon’s biggest “mistake,” the author thoughtfully replied, “Were they mistakes? I guess they were mistakes in some ways since they led to him losing control of part of his group. But it might have been wise and necessary decisions in terms of protecting the realm and dealing with the threat of the White Walkers. –http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead

      So Dany gets “struggling” and “trying” while Jon gets “wise and necessary.”

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    186. Ginevra,

      George says in that very quote that Jon is struggling with ruling. So how can you say he’s a better ruler than Dany. Dany is ruling as Queen with possibly hundreds of thousands of people under her charge. Jon is ruling a small group of Nighhtswatch men, who btw, stab him because they don’t agree with his decisions. Dany and Jon are in the same boat according to George, they have good intentions but aren’t ruling wisely. Not yet anyway. They have room to grow, since they are both so young. I mean Dany is only 15 by the end of ADWD. She’s not going to remain static and never learn, and neither is Jon.

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    187. Black Raven: In that Oxford Union address,D&D and Harington and Bradley had no idea what questions the students would throw at them. When Harington said he would like to ‘warg into a wolf’ and then Weiss said – Two words for you – Season Six – that was pretty spontaneous. Seems he then perhaps realized he shouldn’t have mentioned it and added ‘I’ll leave it at that’.

      I’m with you fellars. I too think Weiss was being sincere in that moment. But I’m not 100% certain. I’m looking forward to the next two or three or four months when we will know for certain.

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    188. To learn u need good advisers who can help you think for yourself and make your own decisions. Dany has that with tyrion although they werent together long enough for her to think on his ideas for herself. jon on the other hand had no one but aemon and to a certain extent sam. now they are gone. i think if and/or when, he miraculously opens his eyes and is the same person he was b4 he died, he will have bran as an advisor.
      So…Jon and bran….Dany and tyrion…how can they lose?

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    189. El-Bobby:
      Ginevra,

      George says in that very quote that Jon is struggling with ruling.

      Thanks, El-Bobby. Can you give me the exact quote and the source where GRRM says that Jon Snow is struggling to rule? I’m not seeing it, and I would like to if it does exist.

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    190. Ginevra,

      There’s next to no chance of him warging seeing as they haven”t set him up to be a warg. His bond with Ghost has been, well, almost non-existent. He didn’t even call for his direwolf as he was dying. Although maybe that’s the point, that’s what they’re going for, a shocking reveal of Jon’s special ability, having been dormant but awoken under extreme circmstances, kinda like with Bran’s fall that nearly killed him.

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    191. harlequeen,

      Chekhov has said: If there is a gun first hung, then it must at some point go off. For the most part, that is true, although even this statement does have exceptions in guns that are red herrings. Still, that gun must be addressed.

      What Chekhov never said is the converse of that statement: If a gun is to go off at some point, then it must first be hung, and that’s not necessarily true. The converse of true statements need not be true. For example, “if you blow your brains out, then you die” is true whereas, “if you die, then you must have blown your brains out” is not true.

      There are plenty of cases of GRRM and other famous authors foreshadowing important events, but there are also plenty of instances where they don’t. George deliberately wants to shock and awe us with both Ned’s beheading and the Red Wedding. Yes, there were instances that laid the groundwork for these being possible, as there is groundwork for Jon Snow warging in the show: Bran, his half-brother, wargs and Orell wargs. Does there need to be more than this? Wimsey certainly believes so, but I do not.

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    192. Ginevra,

      Although anything is possible in GoT, it still seems that they are leaving the warging skill to just a few people to strengthen the impact and, I suppose, trim some story line. If they were going that direction with Jon, I feel he would have whispered “Ghost” at the end rather than “Ollie.” I am losing faith that Arya will warg, too. Has that skill been hinted at yet? I hope she does as I”m looking forward to her leading Nymeria and her wolfpack. Maybe that will be included in her blind period along with a heightened awareness of her other senses.

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    193. harlequeen:
      Ginevra,

      There’s next to no chance of him warging seeing as they haven”t set him up to be a warg. His bond with Ghost has been, well, almost non-existent. He didn’t even call for his direwolf as he was dying. Although maybe that’s the point, that’s what they’re going for, a shocking reveal of Jon’s special ability, having been dormant but awoken under extreme circmstances, kinda like with Bran’s fall that nearly killed him.

      He didn’t call for Ghost in the TV show, but he did in the book (see my earlier spoiler quote from ADWD). Simply because of that, I believe Jon will warg into Ghost so Melisandre can do her magic and resurrect him at some point?

      Its all speculation of course until Season 6 airs, but gives us all something to discuss in the meantime… Now when that trailer going to appear – caw caw 🙂

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    194. Ginevra,

      Read the full answer from where you pulled that quote. George is listing examples of learning being hard for these characters, he lists Arya, Jon, and Dany. Jon is not having an easy time, and most would say he failed because he was stabbed. He didn’t do his duty which was to stay at the wall and brace and ready for an attack and instead tried heading south for family.

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    195. Sullied by Knight,

      There are so many possibilities, but I suggested a while back the possibility of them waiting and introducing the fact

      both Arya and Jon are wargs, too at approximately the same time. I think it would be particularly effective the season they bring back Bran, given he’s the Stark who has been established as a warg on the show, and we’re almost certain to see him warging, again.

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    196. El-Bobbie:
      Ginevra,

      Read the full answer from where you pulled that quote. George is listing examples of learning being hard for these characters, he lists Arya, Jon, and Dany. Jon is not having an easy time, and most would say he failed because he was stabbed. He didn’t do his duty which was to stay at the wall and brace and ready for an attack and instead tried heading south for family.

      Thank you, again. I pulled quotes from two different places:

      http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=3
      http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

      I went back there and searched on the letters “strugg” to see if I could find any form of the word: struggle, struggled, struggling. I found GRRM talking about 1.) a moral struggle (what I see as the greater good question), 2.) George himself struggling to write the five year gap, and 3.) “And that has been interesting, you know. Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule.” Note that the “struggling with rule” is modifying “Dany as Queen.” As the article is written, Jon Snow is in a separate sentence: a period, a full stop. And so Jon Snow is not being modified by “struggling with rule.” Perhaps George meant it that way, but it isn’t written that way and it isn’t said that way, omitting the word “and” and “both.” George didn’t say: Jon Snow as LC and Dany as Queen, both struggling to rule.

      And then these are the only mentions of the word “struggle” in its various forms.

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    197. El-Bobbie:
      Ginevra,

      Read the full answer from where you pulled that quote. George is listing examples of learning being hard for these characters, he lists Arya, Jon, and Dany. Jon is not having an easy time, and most would say he failed because he was stabbed. He didn’t do his duty which was to stay at the wall and brace and ready for an attack and instead tried heading south for family.

      My previous comment is awaiting moderation, so I’m going to try it again without the links. Links might be the reason my comment got moderated.

      I went back to both the articles I drew quotes from and searched on the letters “strugg” to see if I could find any form of the word: struggle, struggled, struggling. I found GRRM talking about 1.) a moral struggle (what I see as the greater good question), 2.) George himself struggling to write the five year gap, and 3.) “And that has been interesting, you know. Jon Snow as Lord Commander. Dany as Queen, struggling with rule.”

      Note that the “struggling with rule” is modifying “Dany as Queen.” As the article is written, Jon Snow is in a separate sentence: a period, a full stop. And so Jon Snow is not being modified by “struggling with rule.”

      Perhaps George meant it that way, but it isn’t written that way and it isn’t said that way, omitting the word “and” and “both.” George didn’t say: Jon Snow as LC and Dany as Queen, both struggling with rule.

      And then these are the only mentions of the word “struggle” in its various forms.

      There are very strong hints in the books that FTW had already been settled before Jon reads the letter, so I do not think that FTW was a result of the letter. D&D moved the letter until after FTW, so they also didn’t see the letter as motivation for that. And then there’s the fact that George all but says Jon hasn’t made mistakes beyond not foretelling and stopping his own doom.

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    198. “I know how long I’m a corpse for, but I can’t tell you that!” nuff said? so by that logic at some point he is no longer a corpse.

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    199. The original outline also mentions Jon’s true parentage being revealed, and I doubt that’s going to be left out of the actual books and thus the show.

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    200. Sullied by Knight,

      I think that the dragon has three heads. I mean, it is possible that’s a red herring, but I think it more likely than not that we will see three dragon riders for three dragons. Dany, Jon, and ???. I have no good idea who the third might be, but I would love the third to be Tyrion or Arya, who are tied for my favorite characters in the series.

      Arya is a warger and a warrior, so I can really see her on a dragon. The trio of Jon with half-sister Dany and presumed half-sister but really cousin Arya conquering Westeros would mirror the original three-headed dragon trio of Aegon I with sisters Visenya and Rhaenys conquering Westeros.

      Of course, either Tyrion or Arya would go against the presumption that the dragon’s three heads are Targaryen, and so I don’t know that either will happen.

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    201. Sullied by Knight: Do you think anyone else in the show will have a connection with the dragons?

      I feel the next person to have a connection with dragons after Daenerys, is Tyrion. In Season 5, both when he was sailing past Valyria with Jorah and saw Drogon, as well as his reactions at Daznak’s Pit, foreshadows to me that he will connect with one or both of the dragons currently locked up in Meereen in Season 6. Tyrion’s reactions to seeing Drogon are so different from others who have regularly seen Drogon and siblings, like Jorah, Daario, Missandei.

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    202. Ginevra,

      I am definitely Team Tyrion and I hope that we find him riding the skies in a custom-designed dragon saddle. I have read fan speculation that he is, indeed, Targaryen, but felt that was too much of a stretch. We do seem rather short on Targaryens these days….

      I’ve also considered Bran as one of the “riders” through warging…you will not walk, but you will fly.

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    203. Kay,

      That is a good point. I remember something, maybe from the books, that he was obsessed with dragons as a boy and learned everything he could about them. Maybe even had dragon dreams. I’ll have to research!

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    204. Black Raven: Simply because of that, I believe Jon will warg into Ghost so Melisandre can do her magic and resurrect him at some point?

      Again, the show has not introduced this as a possibility. If they were going to do it, then they would have done it last year. It also contradicts what the book says about warging. When wargs go into their “second life,” it is not a wolf or bear or eagle with the warg’s mind: it is a wolf or bear or eagle with some “hint” of the warg. The human is quickly lost in the wolf/bear/whatever. In both book and show, Bran is warned that just letting himself warg into Summer for too long would result in Bran being permanently lost.

      Now, Jon might have some wolf dreams in his delirium: but a warg cannot hide his/her mind in an animal for an extended period time and then have it uploaded back into a body again.

      Ginevra: Or it could not. I’m sure I’ll be wrong about a lot of things.

      Guessing what they will do is hard because they have set up so many possibilities. However, guessing what they will not do should be much easier: if they have not set it up, then they probably will not do it! To put it another way, there are a LOT of things that they can do with the proverbial guns that they’ve hung on the walls so far: but do not bet on them firing any proverbial gun until after we’ve seen it hung.

      Sullied by Knight: I am losing faith that Arya will warg, too. Has that skill been hinted at yet?

      If you look back at how B&W have adapted the books, one of the consistent patterns is that they do not introduce something unless it is going to become important in that particular story. The only exceptions have been a few things that are important early in one story that have been introduced late in the prior season. Basically, if they hang a gun early in a season, then they fire it before the end of the season: and as the earliest we might see a firing of an Arya Warging Gun is some time in Series 6, that means that it was not going to be introduced yet.

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    205. Ginevra: Of course, either Tyrion or Arya would go against the presumption that the dragon’s three heads are Targaryen,

      Didn’t GRRM tell us a while ago that they don’t need to all be Targaryens?

      At any rate, my money at this point is on Daeny, Jon and Tyrion. They are the three biggest characters of the series, after all. Besides, Tyrion probably has some Targaryen ancestry: one would think that most of the noble houses would have had an eldest son marry some daughter or granddaughter of a Targaryen at some point or another by now.

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    206. Wimsey,

      His exact quote was:

      “Three heads of the dragon… yes… but the third will not necessarily BE a Targaryen”.

      Basically says to me that 2 of the heads WILL be Targaryens, and the 3rd some type of a twist. Hence his emphasis on “BE”. Could be that the 3rd is a Targayen bastard, just not a Targaryen in name. Or it could be that the 3rd head, or dragon, is warged.

      To me that leaves a few options. That Dany and Jon are the Targaryen heads, with Tyrion the bastard. Or Dany and Jon with Bran warging the 3rd. Or Dany and Tyrion, Targaryens by blood, with Bran warging the 3rd. There’s just so many dragons mentions and imagery in Tyrions story for him not to be involved, and little funny hints by George off-book. And there’s tons of flying imagery in Brans story. There’s really hardly any dragon imagery or mentions in Jon’s story, much less flying imagery, so I tend to like the Dany, Tyrion, and Bran combo.

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    207. I just kinda think it would be awesome if he really is dead, and they just had him wandering around in new costumes for the spy reports because him actually being dead is a bigger twist than him being resurrected by Melisandre.

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    208. JohnnySD,

      Then they’d have paraded him around NI and the GOT sets, which had not been the case. Everytime Kit was filming in NI, he was keeping a low profile and the sets were heavily guarded. We just got one grainy photo from far away. And such strategy would have just contradicted their marketing ruse they’ve been employing since season 5 that is ‘Jon’s dead dead dead’. Also, that’d have been a huge waste of time (Kit’s been in and out of NI for the entire duration of filming, so several months, not just came once for a photo op), money and resources for both Kit and HBO. And given the fact the target audience is the casual fans, not the ones invested as much in the show they’d be following the news off season, they wouldn’t even learn about Kit filming anyway. So what’s the point of such scheme? Furthermore, they wouldn’t want to be giving away such a spoiler either way. Such misdirection would not make any sense.

      The fans, who are up to date with the spoilers/reports, are a margin compared to those who only watch the show and not engage in the background affairs. To the latter, Jon’s return will be a big plot twist.

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    209. Really, those cynical about set reports and set photos and engaging in conspiracy talks, need to remember the entire GOT fandom is divided into two sections. The casual fans (who make up for the biggest viewing force) and the online fans, who are further split into two fractions: fans, who follow the official promo campaign (to a bigger or smaller degree) but stay away from rumours/spoilers, and fans, who absord every unofficial and official detail about the show (on and off-season). The last group is the smallest and one I believe HBO is not particularly fond of, considering all those spoilers spread by its members. Any marketing move HBO makes is aimed at the first two groups.

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    210. it does make me laugh, if you think jon snow is dead, then you should stop watching the show, because you have no idea what the shows about.

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    211. mau:
      Blind Beth,

      I just don’t understand why some fans think that Dance of Dragons 2.0 must be between Dany and fAegon. I think it will be between Jon and Dany, and YG is just a good red herring.

      Actually, when I think about that he is a great red herring, because 90% of fans think that Dance of Dragons 2.0 will be with him and Dany.

      If YG is really a Blackfire, a war with him can’t be a Dance of Dragons . That was a civil war between Targaryens.

      “A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood … what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” “A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”

      This seems like a big clue that Dany will have a major conflict with a false dragon–which Jon isn’t but Aegon almost definitely is. Most fans see him as the “puppet” of Varys, a former mummer.
      “The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them.”

      By process of elimination (pale mare = bloody flux, kraken = Victarion, dark flame = Moqorro, lion = Tyrion, griffin = Griff, sun’s son = Quentin) it seems that Quaithe is also referring to Aegon as the mummer’s dragon. So we are essentially told that his purpose in the story is to give the hero something to fight. The hero of Dany’s arc is Dany. And things are very much shaping up for them to come into conflict. Aegon has the whole Golden Company and is on track to ally with Arianne who is already suspicious of Dany even before she finds out her brother got dragoned.
      That’s an awful lot of advanced notice and setup for a “red herring.” And sure, we could be wrong, but the above is why so many people expect the Dance 2.0 to be Dany v Aegon.

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    212. Blind Beth,
      The lack of casting might mean that this will not be a major plot in Winter, but instead some pointless side-trek.I will be really surprised if anything from Dorne turns out to be relevant in the end: for all of GRRM’s stated desire to avoid fantasy cliches, I very much fear that he’s falling into the different fantasy cliche of worldbuilding for the sake of worldbuilding.

      I think it’s funny when people think Dorne is going to be pointless because they don’t see the point yet–even though there are at least 2 books left, and even though there are seven kinds of foreshadowing that the Dance 2.0 will kick off by Dorne splitting between Dany and Aegon. The show has stripped it out so they can finish in 2 more seasons; fair enough, but the consequence is a rather 2-dimensional Dorne since the show now needs it to go to war with King’s Landing with much less provocation.

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    213. Blind Beth,

      What is difficult to envision is how any of the Big 5 or Big 6 (I’m starting to lean towards Sansa being in that echelon) are going to be there, or how Dorne is going to contribute something to the evolution of one of the important characters that cannot be done more succinctly using other plot elements.

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    214. jon: it does make me laugh, if you think jon snow is dead, then you should stop watching the show, because you have no idea what the shows about.

      Except that the most common idea is that the guy who plays Jon Snow left the show because he thinks that he can get better offers from films. The list of actors who have left TV shows before those shows ended for that reason is very, very long: and if you know nothing else about why an actor seems to be leaving a show, then your best bet is that choice. This is called Empirical Priors in advanced statistics classes: and as Nate Silver repeatedly stresses, we are all Bayesians deep down whether we realize it or not.

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    215. El-Bobbie,

      Thanks! That is almost certainly the quote that I am remembering.

      Of course, one could quibble that this might mean that there have to be two people with the family name Targaryen: after all, even if Jon is Rhaegar’s son, then he is not necessarily a Targaryen unless he can somehow be legitimized.

      Still, it seems that the main premise underlying the Tyrion Stone (or whatever his bastard name would be) idea is that we need Tyrion to have a Targaryen father if he is to become a dragon rider: and that quote does undermine that premise.

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    216. Wimsey,

      Tyrion Hill, presumably, since he was raised at Casterly Rock, although I’m certain he’s Tywin’s. I do love how the bastard names reflect the region: Snow, Stone, Rivers, Hill, Flowers, Sand, Storm, Waters.

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    217. Ginevra,

      Ah, thanks! Yeah, it is a cool idea, and whenever I read, say, Hill or Rivers, I know whence they came: but I never remember what a bastard from most regions should be called. (Bayes Theorem? No problem. What to call a Bastard from the Rock? Um, Rock? No, Stone…. No, er… Gold? Social Darwin? Wait, wrong world….)

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    218. My theory is that Jon does warg into Ghost during his death. Melisandre is not able to revive him and they then put him on ice. Bran sees this in his visions and leaves the cave to help Jon warg from Ghost back into his body.

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    219. Wimsey,

      I cheated and Googled the map of names, but I knew that Stone was Eyrie because of Mya Stone. She made an impression. We’ve not had a lot of interaction with Casterly Rock, which makes it so much harder, I think.

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    220. Wimsey: Except that the most common idea is that the guy who plays Jon Snow left the show because he thinks that he can get better offers from films.

      Really, that’s a common idea? I had not heard of it.

      I know there has been a bunch of actors who quit their famous TV show to do what you say, but I feel that was more common before the crisis? Nowadays we see lots of movie actors and actresses accepting roles on TV shows because the film industry is not exactly booming. It has been tough to “make it” since forever, but I have heard so many actors and actresses talking about how tough things are now in both sides of the Atlantic, that leaving any job at this moment seems increadibly risky.

      Furthermore, despite getting some roles, Kit’s film career has not exactly been that great. So it would not be too smart to leave a huge show like GoT, where he is one of the main characters, to support a discrete film career… I mean, if he has to go, poor guy, but leaving on his own, does not seem right.

      His upcoming project “The Death and Life of John F. Donovan” might be a good one (at least it has a great cast -Kathy Bates, Jessica Chastain, Natalie Portman, Susan Sarandon, among others- and a famous director), but aside from that he does not have many things on the movie front. Heck! He’s working on theater nowadays.

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    221. GhostCR: I know there has been a bunch of actors who quit their famous TV show to do what you say, but I feel that was more common before the crisis?

      The film industry is cranking out more movies now than it was in the 1970’s and 1980’s, and there were many classic cases of people leaving established TV shows then in pursuit of “Hollywood” then. The shift in film distribution models induced by home entertainment means that even though things might be leaner now than in 2007 (and I do not know that this is true), there still are many, many more opportunities than there were in 1987.

      At any rate, it is enough engrained into our basic knowledge that, for most people, it is the first guess as to why anyone would leave an established TV part. And if you know nothing else about why an actor left a series, then go with that. Alternatively, go with contract dispute: but then, the actor is demanding more money because he/she could otherwise get more money from movie parts. Now, we know that the GoT actors are contracted already to do multiple seasons: but Joe and Jane Viewers do not know these things because they pay as little attention to Thrones as you or I pay to the shows for which we are Joes and Janes. (For me, that is every show other than Thrones ever since Matt Smith quit Doctor Who: in part because he wanted to pursue film opportunities!)

      In the parlance of stories, the “TV actors always are looking to become film actors” Chekhovian Gun has been well-hung on the Wall and fired many, many times! One thing that stories and reality do have in common is that you should always bet on the hung guns being fired before ones that are not hung! 😀

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    222. Wimsey: One thing that stories and reality do have in common is that you should always bet on the hung guns being fired before ones that are not hung!

      In the world of Game of Thrones, I don’t tend to bet on any rules (literary or otherwise) being set in stone. Some guns misfire, and some are concealed weapons which are drawn suddenly and are then explained (or not) after the fact.

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    223. Work Mom: My theory is that Jon does warg into Ghost during his death. Melisandre is not able to revive him and they then put him on ice. Bran sees this in his visions and leaves the cave to help Jon warg from Ghost back into his body.

      M,B&W have shown themselves to be very Chekhovian in the past: if they make a big deal of something early, then there is a payoff later, and when there are big payouts, it stems from something that was stressed earlier. I would expect them to carry on being Chekhovian.

      Given that, we can put ideas into three categories:
      1. Those firing hung guns.
      2. Those requiring new guns.
      3. Those contradicting hung guns.

      Any idea fitting #1 should be considered possible. There will be multiple ideas consistent with anyone gun, and often multiple guns applicable to any one situation: and all of those ideas should be given credence.

      Any idea fitting #2 also should require that before the event happens, M,B&W will hang the gun. That is OK for ideas about what will happen late in the season: but not for things that will happen early. We should give these ideas less credence if there are alternatives relying on hung guns: that is Occam meeting Chekhov!

      Any idea fitting #3 basically is a plot-hole or at least a major lapsus.

      Having the Old Gods be able to revive the dead or mortally wounded falls into Category #2. M,B&W would need to hang this gun early in winter before firing it later. That would mean that Jon would have to be revived late in the seasons. Still, we should prefer any idea that involves a hung gun, such as R’hllor reviving people.

      Jon being able to Warg never has been hung on the show or in the books falls into Category 2, but also into Category 3. Wolf-dreams are not the same as warging: one of the book chapters stresses this. And what takes this into Category 3 is that it is too late to have Jon start warging as a solution to this problem in either medium because Jon is in really, really bad shape and the “Jon does not embrace warging” gun is well-hung, particularly in the books. (This does not mean that Jon will not start warging fully after he returns: but that is a completely separate issue.)

      Wargs being able to use their animals as some sort of “cloud” in which to upload their minds that can be downloaded into yet another animal, another person, or even back into themselves definitely falls into Category 3. Both book and show stress that wargs that spend too much time in an animal lose themselves in that animal. (Jojen stresses this to Bran in both series 3 and 4.) The prologue chapter of Dragons notes that the “second life” that skilled wargs can achieve is not the animal with a human mind, but some sort of vestige of the warg: Varamyrs Sixskin cannot now jump from his wolf into another person to perpetuate himself.

      One other thing that we hardcore fans need to remember is that the goal is not to surprise us. Instead, the goal is to set things up so that the average viewer/reader slaps him/herself on the forehead and think “Oh, maybe I should have seen that coming.” Having Mel revive Jon will do just that: they have set up that her god can do that (although they will need a flashback in the “previously on GoT” part) and M,B&W went out of their way to put Mel at the Wall at that time. Hardcores will call it obvious: but the other 99% will think: “Well played, sirs, well played….”

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    224. Pigeon: Some guns misfire, and some are concealed weapons which are drawn suddenly and are then explained (or not) after the fact.

      SoI&F has no examples of Deus Ex Machina (= “weapons which are drawn suddenly and are then explained (or not) after the fact”). The closest that we come is Daeny surviving the fire with her dragons coming out: but even then, the “Daeny is oddly impervious to heat” gun was hung several times in both media.

      The thing to remember is that literary rules are not arbitrary ones like “You cannot buy beer until you are… um… let’s say 19… no, 22… no, 21.” Literary rules are more like safety rules: do not ride a motorcycle without a helmet because you are much less apt to survive. Do not fire guns without hanging them first because your story is much less apt to survive. People dislike stories that use DEM: and one of the things that many people noted set Thrones apart from other Epic Fantasy stories is the absence of DEM twists. (“Oh, if only we had something to do X! Wait! Legend says that a magical item for doing that exists in this forbidden place! Time for another QUEST!”)

      So far, M,B&W have not fired guns without hanging them first, and the show has only hung guns if they are going to be fired that season. GRRM has more than once alluded to some of his plot devices as Chekhovian guns. (His most recent was referring to Nymmeria as a “Wolf pack hung on the wall”: that one made me chuckle.) Until we see actual examples of Deus ex Machina on the show or in the books, then I would not bet on them happening.

      SoI&F also has no examples of guns “misfiring” of which I am aware. Now, some guns might be fired in a way that is different from what some of us expect (i.e., classic red herrings): but they get fired one way or another. That written, hardcore fans have a propensity for making mountains out of molehills: and a lot of things that fans elevate to “guns” really were just narrative wall-hangings. Books need description just like films need costumes and scenery: and not all of it can mean something.

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    225. Wimsey: SoI&F has no examples of Deus Ex Machina (= “weapons which are drawn suddenly and are then explained (or not) after the fact”).

      Yet. I don’t believe that means it can’t happen.

      Wimsey:

      The thing to remember is that literary rules are not arbitrary ones

      And not all ‘rules’ are followed, or in fact even known or acknowledged. Writing and storytelling is not algebra in which there is only one answer or method of calculating.

      Wimsey:

      People dislike stories that use DEM

      That’s a generalization, many people do.

      Wimsey:

      Until we see actual examples of Deus ex Machina on the show or in the books, then I would not bet on them happening.

      See, and I wouldn’t bet against it.

      Wimsey: GRRM has more than once alluded to some of his plot devices as Chekhovian guns.

      Some of them are, yes. Not all of them need be.

      Wimsey:

      hardcore fans have a propensity for making mountains out of molehills

      Oh, that is very apparent!

      Look, I simply don’t think (aka it is my opinion) that stories can be put in neat boxes of ‘Chekhovian this’, ‘DEM’ that, saying that doing something ‘x’ way is ‘bad storytelling’ or that certain methods are written in stone and cannot be deviated from without negative result. At ANY point, regardless of what seems to have been done before.

      None of us, without being in an author’s or writer’s own head, can offer anything other than opinion or a guess on what they think can/will happen and why or why not. Telling people that they’re wrong or that their theory will never happen because of this or that is a guess – perhaps a very educated one, but a guess none the less. It is not fact, and presenting it as such is condescending. It’s as logical as someone saying that since you say you’ll never read the particular book again, you aren’t a ‘real’ fan and therefore shouldn’t read the next one.

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    226. Wimsey: Except that the most common idea is that the guy who plays Jon Snow left the show because he thinks that he can get better offers from films.

      The most common idea???? Common where? Among what group? I would think this is an idea prevalent amongst a very, very tiny fraction of viewers!

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    227. H.Stark,

      Thanks for that! I can’t wait to see him as

      Ser Arthur Dayne!!!

      I also didn’t know he was in Black Sails. I guess I’m going to have to check it out at some point, now.

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    228. Pigeon,

      Thank you.
      I’m guessing there will be a lot us having a hearty laugh when (ok, if, but I really think it’s a matter of when) something ends up happening which bucks certain strict formulas.

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    229. Pigeon,

      I don’t believe that Jon warging would be deus ex machina or contrary to Chekhovian principles.

      de·us ex ma·chi·na
      ˌdāəs eks ˈmäkənə,ˌdāəs eks ˈmakənə/
      noun
      an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

      So, if Jon warding is deus ex machina, then so deus ex machina would imply this power was never introduced or explored in the show by anyone – and therefore unexpected. But warging is in fact expected by many if not most of the hardcore fan community, so not deus ex machina.

      If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off.

      What Chekhov – or any other literary expert, to my knowledge – doesn’t say is, “If the gun goes off, it must first be hung.” This statement does not typically follow from the previous. For instance: if you are a Snow, you are presumed to be a bastard. True. But if you are presumed to be a bastard, you are a Snow is not true.

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    230. Ginevra,

      I should have also thanked you (and I’m sure others) when I thanked Pigeon. I appreciate you both still have the patience to address some of these things.

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    231. Hodorbinks:
      “I know how long I’m a corpse for, but I can’t tell you that!”nuff said? so by that logic at some point he is no longer a corpse.

      I would add that if there is a change of name for the “Jon Snow” character then Kit is not lying when he says that “Jon Snow” is dead…

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    232. Ginevra,

      Yes, He is setting him up to be leader but perhaps against ww and not rulling Seven Kingdoms. And certainly Jon struggled a bit with rulling or leading NW in the books or show. You meant Jon rulling with Tyrion and Daeny. It’s like just some pipe dream , because I just can’t imagine such scenario. Too much of a happy ending or should I say fan service.

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    233. Ginevra:
      Pigeon,

      I don’t believe that Jon warging would be deus ex machina or contrary to Chekhovian principles.

      I don’t either. But at this point, DEM and ‘Chekhovian’ (aside from a Star Trek reference) are right up there with ‘agency’, ‘something to do’, ‘sweet summer child’, and ‘if you think this has a happy ending….’ on my list of words/terms I’d be happy to never hear again. 😉

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    234. I don’t know if it constitutes a Chekhovian gun or not, but reading all that has been going back and forth on this topic, I can’t help remembering that the first time -or one of the first times-warging was seen in the show it was explained to Jon by, I believe, Mance (or Tormud?), when he asked what was the wildling doing (was it Orwall?? I don’t remember his name,sorry).

      Anyway, Jon knows that warging is useful, because the guy was able to tell them what had happened at the Fist of the First Men. Furthermore, he knew that his standing with Mance could certainly suffer if warg reports contradicted the intel he was giving about the number of NW still at the Wall.

      If D&D showed this in the “previously on” segment, along with one of Bran’s warging scenes, wouldn’t this lend support to the idea that different people may have warging abilities… And that it is not that farfetched to think that it may run in the family?? It wouldnt be so crazy to think that maybe Arya or Sansa or Rickon might have this power, too… Why not Jon? Specially when he has undergone an incredibly traumatic experience, that might have unleashed certain things, just as it happened to Daenerys when she stepped into the pire.

      I’m not saying that this will happen (what do I know, right?!) But in my humble opinion it is not so out of the blue if it indeed happened.

      To tell you the truth I did not get the difference between wolf dreams and warging when I read the books (I learned about it here!). Ever since Jon could see Mance’s camp through Ghost’s eyes in his dream, I just assumed he had warging abilities, which was later confirmed by ADWD prologue.

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    235. Geralt of Rivia,

      Jon ruling with Tyrion, yes, but I don’t see that he needs Dany’s help to rule. Dany should be the most critical of the three in leading and rallying and conquering, but the least valuable of the three in ruling – at least IMO. Tyrion is made to be Hand of the King: on that, I agree perfectly with Varys. He is probably the most brilliant at seeing 20 moves ahead and knowing how to rule of certainly anyone in the series but perhaps anyone in any series. So I believe Tyrion will be Hand again.

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    236. GhostCR:
      I can’t help remembering that the first time -or one of the first times-warging was seenin the show it was explained to Jon by, I believe, Mance (or Tormud?), when he asked what was the wildling doing (was it Orwall?? I don’t remember his name,sorry).

      Orell. I remember him mostly because the actor playing Orell, Mackenzie Crook, is the actor who played Gareth Keenan, starring in the original British version of The Office alongside Ricky Gervais and Martin Freeman. So many brilliant moments with Gareth.

      FYI, the Office was always politically incorrect.

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    237. Pigeon: Yet. I don’t believe that means it can’t happen.

      And not all ‘rules’ are followed, or in fact even known or acknowledged. Writing and storytelling is not algebra in which there is only one answer or method of calculating.

      That’s a generalization, many people do.

      See, and I wouldn’t bet against it.

      Some of them are, yes. Not all of them need be.

      Oh, that is very apparent!

      Look, I simply don’t think (aka it is my opinion) that stories can be put in neat boxes of ‘Chekhovian this’, ‘DEM’ that, saying that doing something ‘x’ way is ‘bad storytelling’ or that certain methods are written in stone and cannot be deviated from without negative result. At ANY point, regardless of what seems to have been done before.

      None of us, without being in an author’s or writer’s own head, can offer anything other than opinion or a guess on what they think can/will happen and why or why not. Telling people that they’re wrong or that their theory will never happen because of this or that is a guess – perhaps a very educated one, but a guess none the less. It is not fact, and presenting it as such is condescending. It’s as logical as someone saying that since you say you’ll never read the particular book again, you aren’t a ‘real’ fan and therefore shouldn’t read the next one.

      He’s been good in Black Sails this season. Looking forward to seeing him in Thrones.

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    238. Kay,

      That is far and away the #1 reason why actors leave TV shows abruptly. As I noted above, people are naturally Bayesian: when A causes B over and over, then the next time that they see B, they are apt to think that A caused it. And in the absence of any other information (and remember that most people have no information other than the guy that plays Jon Snow seems to have abruptly left the show), they will assume that the most probable cause for actors leaving shows abruptly is at work.

      Pigeon: Writing and storytelling is not algebra in which there is only one answer or method of calculating.

      You are looking at it backwards: this is not about what is sufficient but what is necessary for good storytelling. Avoiding DEM and adhering to Chekhov’s Laws are necessary but insufficient for good storytelling: if there is no DEM, then the story might be good, but you might also screw up the character development, or simply not have that gripping of a story or any number of other problems.

      Put another way: there is not a formula for making a story work, but there are formula for making stories bad. DEM is one of them: you cannot name any popular and well-received tales that do invoke DEM. And when you read comments by either critics or viewers about why certain movies suck, this is one that comes up quite frequently. (Criticisms from audiences and/or critics that books, films or shows waste a lot of time on things that amount to nothing are essentially Chekhov criticisms.)

      Pigeon: See, and I wouldn’t bet against it.

      Why bet on something that has not yet happened occurring when the alternative is to bet on seeing something that has occurred repeatedly? At any rate, you seem to be using the classical logical fallacy that just because it is possible that M,B&W will slip and resort to DEM, that this means that DEM explanations are just as probable as Chekhovian explanations. However, GRRM and B&W have made their plotting style pretty clear by now: they’ve had numerous opportunities where they could use either something to which they gave some attention before or something that they just pulled out of the blue then and there. To date, they have never done the former: every time something major happens, it was set up in advance.

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    239. Jack Bauer 24,

      so if I understand this right, we might get the first episode title next Sunday ?
      All this season 6 talk is getting me excited 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    240. GhostCR: I can’t help remembering that the first time -or one of the first times-warging was seen in the show it was explained to Jon by, I believe, Mance (or Tormud?), when he asked what was the wildling doing (was it Orwall?? I don’t remember his name,sorry).

      I have always thought that the look that Jon gave Ygritte after she asks Jon “You’ve never met a warg before?”, was peculiar. He never answered yes or no.

      You can also add the fact that Ghost seemingly abandoned Jon to aid Sam TWICE in the show, the first time being in the opening of season 3 and then in the recent season. My pet theory is this is Jon warged, helping Sam, and the writers let Ghost abandon Jon during his stay with the wildlings because Jon was keeping an eye on Sam and the others via Ghost. But don’t take my word for it 😉

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    241. Pigeon: I don’t either. But at this point, DEM and ‘Chekhovian’ (aside from a Star Trek reference) are right up there with ‘agency’, ‘something to do’, ‘sweet summer child’, and ‘if you think this has a happy ending….’ on my list of words/terms I’d be happy to never hear again.

      Preach, sister, preach. At this point, most of the people using the terms are using them incorrectly. It’s all so damn silly.

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    242. Matthew The Dragon knight:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      so if I understand this right, we might get the first episode title next Sunday ?
      All this season 6 talk is getting me excited

      It’s possible. It’ll show up on the schedule this Sunday without having to actually search for it. With how secretive they’ve been I’m going to say no though.

        Quote  Reply

    243. Wimsey,

      Sorry for the delay in responding in kind but I was driving for a while. Thank you for your response and I appreciate the analysis of my theory and the well thought out literary examples. It was my first time posting and I also want to recognize the subsequent responses too.

      Work Mom

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    244. Jack Bauer 24,

      yea, I’m thinking the same.
      won’t even give us a nibble of footage. lol
      this Is torture, hope we get a new behind the scenes this week 🙂
      that’s something to look forward to ^^

        Quote  Reply

    245. Wimsey: Kay,

      That is far and away the #1 reason why actors leave TV shows abruptly.

      You generalize to a very large extent. According to you, this is the #1 reason actors give for leaving a show (which I don’t agree with and I do watch a good bit of TV). THEN you extrapolate to: many fans think that Harington left GAME OF THRONES because of this. Instead, this is YOU extrapolating to what many fans would think. However, fans are not stupid. They know this show is too big, Harington is somewhat known now because of this show, and he wouldn’t just quit one of the most successful TV shows in the world at present on one of the most powerful networks of his own accord to pursue other opportunities, when he can most certainly do show in two to three years time with everyone’s blessings.
      Anyway, I don’t want to endlessly argue about this; I just found your pronouncement rather startling.

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    246. George: Yea, no episode title in the TV listing, no screeners for critics, and, I increasingly fear, perhaps also NO trailer this year.

      I have to agree with the free of no trailer, but I would love to be proven wrong. I also have some serious concerns about how long Jon might be back for in the series. Being in and out of NI doesn’t prove much as filming doesn’t all happen at once and I feel bad for the guy…after all, he can’t just say “yes, I’m back for good,” and no one is going to let him get away with “no comment.”

        Quote  Reply

    247. Wimsey, here’s a Chekhovian gun for you. When Melisandre is trying to seduce Jon Snow she says “There’s power in you, you resist it, that’s your mistake.” If she’s not referring to warging then what else could she have meant (besides that thing he does with his tongue 🙂 )?

        Quote  Reply

    248. Wimsey,

      Uhm, in the prologue of Dance, Varamyr says that Jon Snow was a powerful Warg that hadn’t learned to use his power and that warging into Ghost would be a second life fit for a king…

      There’s also Jon’s wolf dreams, where he smells Bran in the Weirwood tree and Bran tells him to open his eyes by toughing him in the forehead with a branchy hand, as well as scenes from the book where he slips into Ghost in his sleep, scouting for wildlings when he was north of the wall ranging, and when he touches Ghost when Melisandre was near and the world exploding with scents and smells, and his vision becoming clearer.

      So it’s pretty well established in the books that Jon is a warg.

        Quote  Reply

    249. Wall Builder,

      I don’t agree with Wimsey on this issue, but even I think she’s referring to the power of king’s blood – she just doesn’t know it yet. She has obsessed about the power of king’s blood forever. With Jon Snow being the Prince that Was Promised, it only makes sense that she recognizes that power without quite knowing what to make of it. She is also flummoxed when she asks her Red God to show her TPTWP and he shows her Jon Snow. Bless.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Jeb,
      ” I know how long I’m a corpse for, but I can’t tell you that!”
      Meaning that he’s not staying a corpse forever and that he is resurrecting 🙂

        Quote  Reply

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