Are Jon and Dany Doomed in Season 8 of Game of Thrones?

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At the end of Game of Thrones season seven, the collective wish of the fandom was granted and Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen got down and busy with each other. However, that moment of passion on the boat with a Kit moon was undercut by events in Winterfell: Bran Stark and Samwell Tarly discovered Jon Snow was neither a Snow nor a Jon, but actually Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the nephew of the woman with whom he was currently wrapped up in bed. What this tells us, from the very start of their relationship, is that Jon and Dany may be doomed as a couple.

It’s not the ‘Targaryen’ part that may stand in the way. Targaryens are well known to be incestuous, going back to Aegon the Conqueror, who married both his sisters. The Mad King Aerys and Queen Rhaella were brother and sister. Daenerys herself thought all her life she would be married to her elder brother Viserys until she was sold to Khal Drogo. Although the Andal Faith of the Seven had significant problems with this practice, the Targaryen monarchs Jaeherys I and Queen Alysanne hammered out a truce that allowed them to continue their ways in violation of the Faiths ban on incest. This was termed “Targaryen Exceptionalism” in the recent book Fire and Blood, basically that the Targaryens are so different normal rules don’t apply. Or more accurately, dragons are very capable of burning Oldtown to the ground and the Faith enjoyed living.

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The main issue here is that, as soon as Jon and Dany get together, the writers of the show introduce a problem with their relationship. From a story perspective, what the show is telling us is that there will be no honeymoon for them. Their relationship will be one of Romeo and Juliette, star crossed lovers trying to stay together while the rest of the world is trying to tear them apart. The first hint of this was Tyrion frozen at their door with a look of deep concern on his face. But the writers haven’t stopped there.

“Winterfell”, the season eight premiere, opens with Jon and Dany riding up the Kingsroad to Winterfell with their two armies in what should be a moment of celebration for the Northerners. Cold death is marching down from the broken Wall, and two massive armies from the South with two full-grown dragons have arrived. And instead, the roads are lined with glaring, visibly unhappy people. Not a smiling face except for that little boy running through the crowd and climbing a tree to see better and, of course, Arya smiling at the dragons and her long lost crush Gendry. But no one is happy Jon and Dany are together, least of all the Northern lords.

Even before the whole realm learns that the crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms is alive and well, Jon has major problems in his own house. Giving up the crown the North gave him and submitting to another Targaryen has made House Glover abandon their cause and march home. Lord Yohn Royce, who commands the Knights of the Vale in Robin Arryn’s stead, is shooting daggers at Jon and everyone associated with Daenerys. Lyanna Mormont is openly speaking out against Jon’s abdication. The alliance he needs to defend Winterfell is telling him he should abandon her, or at least pick the crown he threw at Dany’s feet back up. What we are being told in very stark terms is that no one wants them together, or at least not without Jon being her equal.

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Luckily, their triad of wise old guys in Varys, Tyrion, and Davos have a solution. As they look at the lovey-dovey couple from the ramparts, Davos suggests that they marry:

On the off chance we survive the Night King, what if the Seven kingdoms for once in their whole shit history were ruled by a just woman and honorable man?

This would go some way towards healing the wounded pride of the North. No one is quite sure what Jon is to Daenerys at the moment. Is he her Warden of the North? Her vassal? Her lover? Her fuckboi? A marriage between them would make Jon the Queen’s royal consort, securing that the North has a stake in the crown going forwards. This match would also make Jon’s “siblings” (cousins) a route towards power in the realm. Political marriages afterwards could smooth over the whole “gave up his crown” thing.

Unfortunately, as Varys says in the episode:

Respect is how the young keeps us at a distance, so we don’t remind them of an unpleasant truth… Nothing lasts.

Varys is unfortunately very wise in this observation. The most stable powerful couple in Targaryen history was King Jaeherys I and Queen Alysanne who ruled the realm as partners for decades. Yet, even within their marriage, problems raged over matters of succession and Jaeherys’ lack of respect for his daughters’ abilities and ambitions. The couple went through what are amusingly termed the “Quarrels”, which is a nice way of saying Alysanne was tired of his nonsense and twice packed up and left Jaeherys for two years at a time. Jon and Dany are in the honeymoon phase of their relationship, when everything is bright and exciting and new between them. The real issues that plagues every couple haven’t shown up yet, although it awaits them.

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Jon and Dany face a much more pressing issue, though. Samwell Tarly informed Jon that he’s supposed to be Aegon VI of House Targaryen, the legal heir to the Iron Throne over Daenerys. Not only that, Samwell delivered this news by first telling Jon that Dany killed Sam’s father Randyll and brother Dickon Tarly by burning them alive. Sam is not just pushing Jon to take his claim seriously and rule over Dany, he’s making it a moral issue. Sam’s message is that Daenerys is a bad person, an unjust morally bankrupt ruler, someone that will do horrible things to the Seven Kingdoms if she takes control. And more than that, Sam is putting his friendship with Jon the line by making him choose between the loyalty he feels towards his best friend and fair rule he learned from Ned Stark against the love Jon finally feels again after his tragic loss of Ygritte.

This kind of persuasion has worked before in Westeros, particularly in the Targaryen family. They’ve had two full-scale civil wars known as the Dance of the Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellions, and both started with conversations exactly like the one between Sam and Jon. The Dance was between the long-acknowledged heir to King Viserys I, Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen, and her half brother Prince Aegon. That Aegon, just like our current one, was not interested in the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra had been the heir for years, and while they never had a good relationship, Aegon was content to let her take the throne. Though accounts dispute the exact reasons for why Aegon changed his mind, the most plausible is that his mother Queen Alicent Hightower and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Criston Cole argued that, should Rhaenyra take the throne, she would certainly execute Aegon and his mother and brothers to secure her claim. They argued that Rhaenyra was an evil, hateful woman who cheated on her husband and would be a morally bankrupt queen. Sound familiar?

And then there’s Daemon Blackfyre. His father, Aegon the Unworthy, had Robert Baratheon levels of bastard children across the Seven Kingdoms and on his deathbed legitimized them all. His only acknowledged true-born son Daeron was always careful to be kind and generous to Daemon, and there was no real quarrel between the half-brothers. Daemon was given basically all he wanted including holdings, money, and the ability to build a castle. Yet, there was a snag. Daeron had taken Brynden Rivers, another bastard of Aegon (and, in the books, later the Three-Eyed Crow,) into his confidence, enraging Brynden’s chief rival and half-brother Aegor Rivers. Aegor, along with others like Quentyn Ball, pushed Daemon to take the Iron Throne from King Daeron for their own personal reasons. Again, like we’re seeing from Sam here, Daemon was pressured into pushing his claim not out of a just cause but because those whispering in the ears of power had their own problems with the King.

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Two Targaryens, each with dragons and competing claims to the same seat of power, have been a problem before. And that is what the showrunners are telling us with the situations they have crafted and the conversations being held around Jon and Daenerys. All the world is against them already, and it’ll only get worse if the rest of the Lords find out who Jon is and push him to take power like happened to Aegon II and Daemon Blackfyre before him. And even if Jon, Samwell, and Bran keep their secret to themselves, there’s a very good chance in the coming episode that Jon will be found out.

When Jon got on Rhaegal’s back and flew around Winterfell, the aforementioned trio of Davos, Tyrion, and Varys all saw him. And between Varys and Tyrion you have two the most knowledgeable minds on the history of the Seven Kingdoms, Targaryens, and dragons in particular. In the past, Targaryens had many problems with bastards and pretenders trying to press their claims as the true Blood of the Dragon. A common way of deciding if they were legitimate or not was letting the dragons judge them. If the claimant could mount a dragon and not die horribly in the process, they were deemed true children of Valyria. This is something that Tyrion, who has read every book on dragons and dreamed of having his own since he was a child, will certainly notice and begin to wonder about. Varys as well. And perhaps even Davos. When he was learning to read Princess Shireen Baratheon would often tell him about the Dance of the Dragons where this very concept of dragon riding proving Targaryens was a key point.

As well, tensions are likely to only increase within Winterfell in the coming episode. Not only are the White Walkers bearing down on them, but as Sansa pointed out there’s not enough in the stores to feed the combined forces for very long. Jon may have given up his crown, but he hasn’t given up how much he cares about the Northerners. If they begin to starve, he’s likely to take their side over Daenery’s troops, especially with all the Northern Lords pushing him.

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And that is all even before the two deal with the revelation that they are aunt and nephew. While this could perhaps not be as terrible a reality for Dany, it will certainly not be an easy thing for Jon personally. Also, Dany has changed a lot since she was under Viserys’ thumb, so she may not be as accepting as she once was. Beyond the incest, Jon’s whole identity and relationships with the family he grew up with are going to be thrown into chaos. He wasn’t raised with the idea that he might marry a close family member. Even among the Northerners, who have very isolated homes and castles, marriages between first cousins are rare. Ygritte showed in A Storm of Swords (Jon III) that even the wildlings and their society of very few rules abhor what Jon’s heart wants:

He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.

These intertwining and tough questions about what Jon and Dany will do in the coming episodes are neither easy nor simple to parse. The best way to unite their forces would be a marriage, but it would have to be one built on deceit, as all would object due to them being close relatives, and one that could easily crumble if anyone, particularly someone like Bran or Sam, lets Jon’s true identity slip. Dany and her advisors may even consider Jon, who recently proved himself a dragonrider, a major threat to her reign. From what’s seen in the trailer of the two in front of Lyanna’s statue, it appears that Jon may tell Dany, too.

The significance of being in front of Jon’s true mother, Lyanna Stark, can’t be overstated either. This set up, of a doom romance that tore a kingdom apart, is exactly the same story of Jon’s parents Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the same for Jon’s cousin Robb Stark who married Talisa instead of the Frey bride he was promised to. And we know how that one ended at the Red Wedding. The theme of characters following their hearts rather than their heads is a major one in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, and the consequences of that are often tragic and bloody. Can their budding romance survive history’s examples and every force pushing and pulling them? It seems to me about as likely as the White walkers turning around and marching home declaring their invasion a huge prank. But I’ve been surprised before.

171 responses

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    1. PS It does not bode well for Dany that she got on Sam’s sh*t list. And I still suspect Jon will do the half-wight, half-human Benjification DG shard treatment. He can be the new Night King Beyond the Wall, while all the other survivors kick back on a beach in the Summer Isles – “someplace warm” that Jon wanted to go to until Sansa foiled his vacation plans in S6.

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    2. The problem I’m having with these posts is that they are internally coherent and all, but they seem to forget that there’s a civilization-ending event about to hit WF.

      The way I see it, if Dany and Jon beat the AoTD and survive, they can very well shack up in any way they prefer, and the Northerners will damn be happy with their choice after all the sacrifice they will have mutually endured.

      And if they go on to beat Cersei and survive, then for all I care, they can fly (or sail) to the three islands from Fire & Blood and go full Robinson Crusoe there if they so choose.

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    3. Ten Bears,

      There could be something to it. Jon does idolize his uncle Benjen (who also took the shard)…but uncle Benjen isn’t around anymore to tell him to make sure he really thinks about it before taking the plunge so to speak.

      This season is supposed to be all about callbacks to season 1, so that actually does fit in with the scene Uncle Benjen meets Jon and Jon’s all ready to take the black.
      Perhaps Jon is ready to take the shard.

      And I think even with Jon’s new heritage, when Jon remembers Uncle Benjen, it’s still really his “Uncle” Benjen isn’t he?

      I can’t see Dany and Jon ending up happy together…

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    4. I say yes, because one or both of them will die. Even if they both miraculously live, I won’t be sorry to see them separated, because I feel nothing about their romantic relationship, it was one of the biggest disappointments of season 7 and it just doesn’t work for me.

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    5. hi guys .
      i know it’s not related to this post but Does anyone know where all the dothraki are right now ?
      cause i have seen the first episode of this season over and over and all i could find was 20-30 of them during their march and just some tents outside of winterfell that looked like Dothraki’s tent.

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    6. Yeah I don’t see a happy ending for this couple. I have Dany pegged at 75% dying and I’m 50/50 on Aegon.

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    7. Tron79,

      Well, Bran knows the secret of the Benjification Shard. Benjen explained it to Bran in detail. So if that procedure somehow becomes necessary, I have no doubt Jon will volunteer to do it for the greater good.

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    8. I say no. D&D didn’t spend all that time setting up the parallels between their characters for nothing. And why would Martin bother making Dany and Jon the last two remaining Targs only to kill them both off if he didn’t intend on a Targaryen restoration?

      I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that D&G hired Kit and Emilia and spent millions on matching ad campaigns if they weren’t going to end up together at least as long as both are alive. There are several beautiful women and good looking men on the show they could have hired if they were just looking for new faces.

      If one or both don’t survive, we won’t see the other have a happily ever after with someone else as there isn’t enough time left in the series to go in another direction as this juncture. For all intense purposes we will remember them as a couple – whether it’s as a happy couple or a doomed couple is yet to be seen.

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    9. Tron79,

      PS What was it that Thorne told Jon on the gallows? Something like: “I fought. I lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, will be fighting their battles forever.”

      I found that curious – an allusion to post-resurrection Jon somehow being destined to immortality without ever having joy or peace.

      That fate sounds worse than death.

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    10. I’d be down for a Dark Knight Rises kind of ending.
      Everyone thinks they’re dead, and they run off to Bravos to live in a house with a red door…
      Dany wants the throne- but I suspect her motivations largely stem from seeing it as a surrogate motivation for the family/home that she always wanted but believes she can’t have. But with Jon, she may actually be able to have it.
      When it comes down to choosing between the two… maybe she’d be conflicted at first, but I think ultimately her choice is pretty obvious.

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    11. Not sure I fully realised until I read this, just how anti Dany Sam is! 😳

      According to John Bradley, Sam’s goal now is simply to split them up and there’s no way he will change his mind about her.

      “Once Dany told him about what she’d done to his family and the father and brother, the fact that she’s burnt them alive for a simple act of rebellion really, and a simple act of defiance, it kind of indicates to Sam this is a very volatile character and a very violent character, and not only that, but also unstable and imbalanced and hell bent on power,” Bradley told Collider. “I think he eyes her very warily now.”

      http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-john-bradley-interview/amp/?__twitter_impression=true</

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    12. Their “love” is absolutely doomed. While I like your analysis, I think you are missing a puzzle piece: it was never meant to be a love story to begin with. Their romance was one-sided at best and driven by political questions of power from the very beginning. The dialogue is actually very revealing, but D&D played with the expectations of the audience. They carefully set up a pretty picture with two hot actors and the very clever use of the musical score (i.e. Truth). But even this is an illusion, because “Truth” captures a political truth that will change the game forever. Storywise Jon and Daenerys are foils to each other – always have been.

      General audience: That’s treason.
      Sam: Its the Truth!!!
      Tyrion: You’re in the great game now. And the great game is terrifying.

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    13. Dyanna,

      “A simple act of rebellion”? Oh God, seriously? People on this show have been executed for far lesser crimes, rebellion and treason in this world is like the worst crime you can commit. I understand that Sam was being emotional in that scene, but he’s also being a major hypocrite. Then again, I feel like he represents a huge chunk of the fandom who’s so willing to villify Daenerys for actions other characters are praised for.

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    14. Ten Bears,

      Yes those were his last words.
      I don’t think this is how Jon will end although he would be happy to take the shard for the team. I see a better ending for Jon.
      I think both Jon and Arya will survive. And I’m guessing Sansa will too. The main problem that Jon has is that the LOL may decide at some point Jon has served his purpose. But there are so few Targaryns left I predict Dany will have Jon’s child and Dany will die in childbirth. Hopefully another dragon egg pops up in the crypts. It’s not out of the realm of possibilities that Tyrion will also be part of the happy Targ family. Bran was giving him the stare in episode 1
      Of course Tyrion could still be running a con with Cersei and Bran knows the truth. But I feel that’s less likely now.

      So luckily we’re only a day away from the next episode because the speculation is really driving me a bit nuts. I really want to see Arya’s new weapon. And did you notice she uses the bow left handed in the preview. I know she made a point of using her left hand with needle but in the first season she shot the bow right handed. I was trying to remember if she shot right or left handed in the woods to with the BWOB

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    15. Might be doomed? It’s Game of Thrones! 😆
      I’m just glad they found some happiness with each other after losing their first partners, neither of whom were particularly likeable imo. But I’ve never seen a happy ending in the forecast. Because….this show. 🤪

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    16. Eh I don’t think Jon will really be at a loss if he loses Dany romantically he just thinks he needs her for the war effort and he probably doesn’t think he could fight her and win. But well…this is the set up for the 2nd Dance and many folks on Tumblr figured it out faster than you, Joe.

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    17. Vinga:
      MMJ,

      Lol, Which parts of Tumblr exactly, I wonder…

      Stark loyalists. People who actually knew Dany wasn’t going to be welcomed by the Starks and that Sam was going to have a legit grievance. Everything folks dismissed for two years.

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    18. I’d be shocked if they both live and wind up aligned at the end. The only question mark is if Dany gets pregnant. That could force a marriage. However, there are things yet to take place that I believe will set them against each other, and quite honestly, it’s the best way to end the series, IMO. Them getting married and teaming up to defeat the AOTD and then Cersei is just too cutesy. Even them being together still and one or both die wouldn’t be as interesting to me. We’ve seen tragic love stories before.

      I’d prefer the two chosen ones, whose stories have paralleled each other, to wind up at odds. It wouldn’t even be that they hate each other, either. I could see Sansa doing something behind Jon’s back that pushes Dany to charge her with treason, sentencing her to death. Seeing this, Jon would then save Sansa and split with Dany, eventually pushing his claim because he feels Dany is too volatile.

      Of course, none of that will probably happen, but it’d be interesting if it did.

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    19. Tron79: It’s not out of the realm of possibilities that Tyrion will also be part of the happy Targ family. Bran was giving him the stare in episode 1

      While there is evidence in the books to hint at Aerys and Joanna Lannister hooking up and Tyrion having Targ-like physical characteristics, in the show, we haven’t seen any of this. If they suddenly drop a “Tyrion is a Targ too” bomb on us it will come out of absolutely nowhere and decimate the integrity of the show.

      I feel the stare-down is for more cynical reasons.

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    20. “The fight between Gandalf and the witch king of Angmar is a great moment, but the fight between Achilles and Hector also, you know, resonates for me and is something that I wanted to draw upon where you have two heroes fighting. I also liked the idea of the story not being predictable.” – GRRM, 2011

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    21. Che: While there is evidence in the books to hint at Aerys and Joanna Lannister hooking up and Tyrion having Targ-like physical characteristics, in the show, we haven’t seen any of this. If they suddenly drop a “Tyrion is a Targ too” bomb on us it will come out of absolutely nowhere and decimate the integrity of the show.

      I feel the stare-down is for more cynical reasons.

      The show did setup the one scene when Tyrion let the dragons loose and the dragons didn’t eat him. They seemed to like him, and Tyrion talked about how he always wanted a dragon, even a little one. But I guess many kids wanted a dragon. But the fact that the dragons didn’t burn him alive is the main thing that keeps the idea open in my mind. There is also the fact that his mother died in childbirth (as did Jon’s mom), and that seems to happen with Targ kids. But you’re right. They haven’t setup much other than these two things. I think it’s less likely now that Jon rode Rhaegal and the NK got Viserion. I thought years ago that Tyrion may be a third rider, and that would be pretty difficult now.

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    22. MMJ:
      Eh I don’t think Jon will really be at a loss if he loses Dany romantically he just thinks he needs her for the war effort and he probably doesn’t think he could fight her and win. But well…this is the set up for the 2nd Dance and many folks on Tumblr figured it out faster than you, Joe.

      That’s nice, I’m not racing.

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    23. Tron79: …I think it’s less likely now that Jon rode Rhaegal and the NK got Viserion.I thought years ago that Tyrion may be a third rider, and that would be pretty difficult now.

      Only a Targ can ride dragons? So NK must be a Targ?

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    24. MMJ,

      I don’t think anyone would confuse Cersei or the Night King as heroes. And this is really what it comes down to, IMO. There is no way for this story to wrap up in an unpredictable, uneasy way if Jon and Dany are together and fighting on the same side. It’s also why the Whitewalkers must be dealt with and finished in episode 3.

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    25. Bravo! Joe Magician! Yours is one of the very few articles posted here which I’ve not lost interest in by the third paragraph. Well done and thank you.

      As I see it, this “romance” disturbs, because I want the two most caring and unselfish characters in the entire story to find happiness after so much heartbreak and tribulation and I’m fearful that they will not. I believe Dany truly loves Jon, but I also get a jarring vibe that he does not love her in return. I see no sign of affection from him. A man truly in love, presents his true love proudly to his family. He does not leave her to walk up to them unescorted and introduce herself. This was very shocking in the first episode, last week. I fear, he’s using a pretense of love in order to get help in fighting the Night King and his army. Is there not some warning to Dany about a betrayal for love or something of the sort?

      One reviewer at the end of season seven noted that Kit and Emilia have zero chemistry together: maybe this is what is giving me this vibe. Indeed, Jon and Dany do not sizzle onscreen as Jon and Ygritte did. We know why, surely: Kit and Rose had ” a thing” for each other.

      I’m hoping my fears do not materialize and Jon and Dany eventually end up ruling the kingdoms together as Davos suggest and as a happily married couple. If he is truly in love, then all of the “you are banging your aunt” silliness and “you are the true heir” whining will go unheeded as they should. This is what I would call” a romance.”

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    26. cos alpha,

      I think there is a difference here. The dragon is wight or white walker now. And the nk can control him. Maybe vyserion hates it but he can’t hurt the nk because the nk controls him.

      And I think the nk is a Stark.

      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Or white walker. He needed to touch the dragon (like turning into a white walker) instead of just raising his hands.

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    27. I’m rather annoyed with Sam’s reaction with Dany. His father hated him, scorned him, cast him to the Wall, and even hinted at killing Sam in an accident, in the books. Sam feared his father, and hardly knew his brother. This scenario just doesn’t seem to work for me…

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    28. LadyLyanna,

      How did he hardly know his brother? He spent 15+ years growing up with him. My only problem was I wish he knew they were executed by being burned alive. His reaction would make even more sense if he knew that.

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    29. Nice essay outlining all the tension the writers have created in their story.

      They very well may be doomed. Although ironically the fact that they seem so doomed could be a sign they will make it.

      The more interesting question to me is thematically what was the point of having them fall in love and what is the series trying to say about love at the end through this relationship.

      I hope it says something fundamentally more interesting than just what other relationships in the series have given us.

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    30. Jack Hamm:
      Bravo!Joe Magician!Yours is one of the very few articles posted here which I’ve not lost interest in by the third paragraph.Well done and thank you.

      As I see it,this “romance” disturbs, because I want the two most caring and unselfish characters in the entire story to find happiness after so much heartbreak and tribulation and I’m fearful that they will not. I believe Dany truly loves Jon, but I also get ajarring vibe that he does not love her in return.I see no sign of affection from him.A man truly in love, presents his true love proudly to his family.He does not leave her to walk up to them unescorted and introduce herself. This was very shocking in the first episode, last week.I fear, he’s using a pretense of love in order to get help in fighting the Night King and his army.Is there not some warning to Dany about a betrayal for love or something of the sort?

      Except, that Jon is the one who initiated the relationship, and he did so after she was on her way to fight for the North.

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    31. LadyLyanna:
      I’m rather annoyed with Sam’s reaction with Dany. His father hated him, scorned him, cast him to the Wall, and even hinted at killing Sam in an accident, in the books. Sam feared his father, and hardly knew his brother. This scenario just doesn’t seem to work for me…

      Hardly knew his brother? Where are you getting that from? Of course he knew his brother, they lived together as family until Sam left for the Wall.

      And yes, Sam’s father was awful to him, but that doesn’t mean Sam didn’t hope for his father’s love one day. The news meant that that hope was gone for ever.

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    32. Grandmaester Flash: Hardly knew his brother?Where are you getting that from?Of course he knew his brother, they lived together as family until Sam left for the Wall.

      And yes, Sam’s father was awful to him, but that doesn’t mean Sam didn’t hope for his father’s love one day.The news meant that that hope was gone for ever.

      I have no idea why some viewers thought burning his father and brother would not matter to Sam.

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    33. Also, Targaryen Exceptionalism? Really? That’s probably the worst thing Jaehaerys ever did. And not even because of the incest, but because of the ego inflation it gave to every Targaryen to do whatever they hell they wanted. ASOIAF is not sending the message that only the pure blood special people can rule over mere mortals with dragons or that the people who can fly are inherently better than the sad, pitiful earth-bound people who have to walk around in the mud. We saw how “exceptional” Targaryens were when they all died just like everyone else.

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    34. Nice analysis! Very detailed and to the point.
      But there are two things, that still give me hope. GRRM’s kind of template for this whole thing, that he mentioned in several interviews: the War of the Roses in medieval England and his now quite notorious quote about the bittersweet ending: “bittersweet but overall happy” was what he actually said. As the term “bittersweet” sure is open to interpretation, I doubt that applies to the word “happy” as well.
      For me the death of both or even one of them wouldn’t count as bittersweet. It would be tragic. And neither character is a tragic one. Same applies for them as a couple. The last two remaining Targaryens, not only finding each other after being separated by time, space and circumstances but also happen to fall in love with each other, being able to fall in love with each other after all they have been through and with everything that stands in their way, and then they fall apart? Gee, that would not be “bittersweet”, that would be tragic on a level even Romeo and Juliet would shed bitter tears of pity for the affected couple.
      So, I stand by the bittersweet, but overall happy ending GRRM promised, which he also compared to the ending of LotR, the books, not the movie. And there is a lot of grief, death and destruction. Things we already saw plenty of in GoT as well – and sure as hell will see plenty more. But in the end of LotR is also joy, love and hope. Essential to the ending of every story, otherwise: what’s the fuss about? And no, Sam and Gilly living happily ever after, Bronn getting his castle and Tyrion enjoying his own wine won’t be sufficient.
      And there comes the War of the Roses into play. It ended 1485 when the last male heir of House Lancaster, Henry VII., defeated the last king of House York, Richard III., on the battlefield at Bosworth. To secure the newfound peace and to unite the war torn land again he married his cousin, Elizabeth of House York, a princess, beforehand declared a bastard by her kingly uncle Richard, so that he could claim the crown. The new house was named Tudor. It’s said Henry and Elizabeth were quite fond of each other, but they had also a ton of work: Rebuilding a war torn country, filling up the money boxes, defending the throne against pretenders, fighting rebellions and mourning the loss of their firstborn son. For me that sounds bittersweet enough.

      P.S. Henry’s heir was the notorious Henry VIII. He managed to screw up royally, or as Varys said: Nothing lasts.

        Quote  Reply

    35. MMJ:
      Also, Targaryen Exceptionalism? Really? That’s probably the worst thing Jaehaerys ever did. And not even because of the incest, but because of the ego inflation it gave to every Targaryen to do whatever they hell they wanted. ASOIAF is not sending the message that only the pure blood special people can rule over mere mortals with dragons or that the people who can fly are inherently better than the sad, pitiful earth-bound people who have to walk around in the mud. We saw how “exceptional” Targaryens were when they all died just like everyone else.

      This is why I hope/think this is not a restoration.

      The message of inbuilt racial superiority could not at all be where this story is going. GRRM is not that retro.

      However, I think this factor accounts for the popularity of the Targs and GOT among some fans and in some section of society. You will note that some political segments have been using GOT trademarks – this is because GOT resonates among some unfortunates elements because of the racial superiority sub-text. Of course another reason is that the cast is not very diverse.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Grandmaester Flash,

      I think it’s fair to say any tiny bit of hope Sam might have harbored that his father might come around and love him some day, died the day Sam brought a wildling girl into Randyll Tarly’s home and left without a word while stealing the family’s sword…

        Quote  Reply

    37. House Monty:
      Nice essay outlining all the tension the writers have created in their story.

      They very well may be doomed. Although ironically the fact that they seem so doomed could be a sign they will make it.

      The more interesting question to me is thematically what was the point of having them fall in love and what is the series trying to say about love at the end through this relationship.

      I hope it says something fundamentally more interesting than just what other relationships in the series have given us.

      That’s always the rub! Are they setting up massive amounts of tensions and problems to subvert it and have them triumph? Or just following through on what they’ve set up. I’d expect because it is the show, they’re not going for a total subversion of their romance being doomed. They generally don’t have the time for something like that, but maybe a partial one. Their relationship doesn’t last and not because of the reasons they’ve already showed out. Not reason A, B, or C but D which they haven’t mentioned yet.

        Quote  Reply

    38. MMJ: Yeah, no kidding. You think this is a Romeo and Juliet thing.

      Indeed I do. Or at least, that’s what I think the writers are setting up for them in the viewers’s mind. I doubt Jon and Dany would have a mishap over poison and a missed letter though.

        Quote  Reply

    39. MMJ: Yeah, no kidding. You think this is a Romeo and Juliet thing.

      Indeed I do. Or at least, that’s what I think the writers are setting up for them in the writer’s mind. I doubt Jon and Dany would have a mishap over poison and a missed letter though.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Johanna van Locchum:
      Nice analysis! Very detailed and to the point.
      But there are two things, that still give me hope. GRRM’s kind of template for this whole thing, that he mentioned in several interviews: the War of the Roses in medieval England and his now quite notorious quote about the bittersweet ending: “bittersweet but overall happy” was what he actually said. As the term “bittersweet” sure is open to interpretation, I doubt that applies to the word “happy” as well.
      For me the death of both or even one of them wouldn’t count as bittersweet. It would be tragic. And neither character is a tragic one. Same applies for them as a couple. The last two remaining Targaryens, not only finding each other after being separated by time, space and circumstances but also happen to fall in love with each other, being able to fall in love with each other after all they have been through and with everything that stands in their way, and then they fall apart? Gee, that would not be “bittersweet”, that would be tragic on a level even Romeo and Juliet would shed bitter tears of pity for the affected couple.
      So, I stand by the bittersweet, but overall happy ending GRRM promised, which he also compared to the ending of LotR, the books, not the movie. And there is a lot of grief, death and destruction. Things we already saw plenty of in GoT as well – and sure as hell will see plenty more. But in the end of LotR is also joy, love and hope. Essential to the ending of every story, otherwise: what’s the fuss about? And no, Sam and Gilly living happily ever after, Bronn getting his castle and Tyrion enjoying his own wine won’t be sufficient.
      And there comes the War of the Roses into play. It ended 1485 when the last male heir of House Lancaster, Henry VII., defeated the last king of House York, Richard III., on the battlefield at Bosworth. To secure the newfound peace and to unite the war torn land again he married his cousin, Elizabeth of House York, a princess, beforehand declared a bastard by her kingly uncle Richard, so that he could claim the crown. The new house was named Tudor. It’s said Henry and Elizabeth were quite fond of each other, but they had also a ton of work: Rebuilding a war torn country, filling up the money boxes, defending the throne against pretenders, fighting rebellions and mourning the loss of their firstborn son. For me that sounds bittersweet enough.

      P.S. Henry’s heir was the notorious Henry VIII. He managed to screw up royally, or as Varys said: Nothing lasts.

      Great allusions! Yeah I agree, they are unlikely to die in a totally tragic way without some hope. Maybe it’ll be like after Ned and Cat died and their children survived for them. Or Jon himself, who thrived in the world despite his parents both being dead right after his birth. The proposed title for the last book, A Dream for Spring, could be restated as a Hope for the Future as that’s usually what spring is. Regrowth, new lives starting, the horror of winter being washed away.

        Quote  Reply

    41. And that is all even before the two deal with the revelation that they are aunt and nephew. While this could perhaps not be as terrible a reality for Dany, it will certainly not be an easy thing for Jon personally. Also, Dany has changed a lot since she was under Viserys’ thumb, so she may not be as accepting as she once was. Beyond the incest, Jon’s whole identity and relationships with the family he grew up with are going to be thrown into chaos. He wasn’t raised with the idea that he might marry a close family member. Even among the Northerners, who have very isolated homes and castles, marriages between first cousins are rare.

      This is not true. Jon’s maternal grandparents, Lord Rickard and Lady Lyarra, were first cousins once removed. Lord Cregan Stark also took as his third wife a cousin, Lady Lynara, and Lord Cregan’s two eldest sons by Lady Lynara married their nieces, the daughters of Lord Cregan’s son by his first wife. Cousin marriages are no problem at all in the North. And that’s merely what we know of House Stark itself, not including instances of vassal house marriages that either happened or were proposed.

      While there’s not as many cases of avuncular marriage, it also seems to be socially acceptable, as also happened in medieval Europe (see, e.g., the Habsburgs).

        Quote  Reply

    42. cos alpha: Only a Targ can ride dragons? So NK must be a Targ?

      Undead don’t play by the same rules. Viserion was raised and is now controlled by the NK.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Sean C.,

      Sean C.: This is not true.Jon’s maternal grandparents, Lord Rickard and Lady Lyarra, were first cousins once removed.Lord Cregan Stark also took as his third wife a cousin, Lady Lynara, and Lord Cregan’s two eldest sons by Lady Lynara married their nieces, the daughters of Lord Cregan’s son by his first wife.Cousin marriages are no problem at all in the North.And that’s merely what we know of House Stark itself, not including instances of vassal house marriages that either happened or were proposed.

      While there’s not as many cases of avuncular marriage, it also seems to be socially acceptable, as also happened in medieval Europe (see, e.g., the Habsburgs).

      Indeed, however when you look at the rest of the marriages in the North and House Stark, that was an aberration not the rule. The vast majority were not with close relatives. Particularly recently. The Starks have changed tactics since then, and have been looking far outside the North for marriages. In Ned’s generation, they were bethrothed to Stormlanders, Riverlanders, and Ned may have been on his way to a match with Ashara Dayne. That’s not to say the Starks never married cousins, you’re exactly right on that! And with the historical context too.

      Targaryens regularly married siblings and aunts and uncles to nephews and nieces, and as Dany showed in the early chapters with her disappointment at not marrying Viserys *barf* it was a thing they grew up with. Jon did not grow up in that kind of familial structure and expectation, not by a long shot.

        Quote  Reply

    44. MMJ,

      I’m not sure how you could interpret that scene as Dany showing no concern for Sam. She’s obviously not happy to learn that she has to deliver him the bad news.

      JoeMagician,

      The fact that the Starks don’t habitually marry close family wouldn’t indicate that Jon would have an issue with it. Cousin marriage is a regular part of their society, so he wouldn’t think it was immoral. His own grandparents, as I noted, were cousins.

        Quote  Reply

    45. I fucking hope so. Emilia has her moments, but when it comes to this romance, she couldn’t act like she was falling if you pushed her off a cliff

        Quote  Reply

    46. There has been so much fanversation about this that I can’t remember my way back to the sources but both Harrington and Dinklage have said that no one has guessed who sits on the IT at the conclusion. This would obviously rule out the most popular choices, especially J&D, either jointly or individually. (IMO, Jon sacrifices himself, one way or another while Bronn kills Dany).
      Let’s leave aside the possibilities that no one sits on the IT at the end, either because it is still in play, leaving us to stew, or it has become irrelevant, as in a morality play.
      But let’s bear in mind the classic film school narrative techniques that the writers of the television GOT offshoot have been generously using, especially thematic patterning and it’s currently overused circular references to season 1. (We love circularity because it is so poetic and so “Ties the Whole Thing Together”).
      GOT got its start with the three usurpers, Robert, Eddard and Jon Arrryn, each of whom contributes one or more Throne candidates in season 8.
      Simply based on the previously mentioned actor scuttlebutt and the irresistible plot circularity, I think Robin Arryn will wind up on the Throne.

        Quote  Reply

    47. So based on previous years, can someone indicate the likelyhood of HBO Go servers being doomed for ep2? Last week the app and website crashed (HBO Portugal) at 2am and the ep was viewable at 3pm. Thanks.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Tar,

      Applying circularity, the only one to hit the bullseye in S1e1 was…. Arya.

      All hail Queen ASNAWP, Arya Stark of Winterfell, First of Her Name, Protector of the Realm, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, and Cold Little Bitch.

      Long may she reign! 👸🏻

        Quote  Reply

    49. Sean C.:
      MMJ,

      I’m not sure how you could interpret that scene as Dany showing no concern for Sam.She’s obviously not happy to learn that she has to deliver him the bad news.

      Daenerys haters see what they want to see.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Mango,

      I thought the message behind Targ inbreeding is that it gives offspring a 50%-50% chance of being a nutjob, i.e., the gods flip a coin: heads you’re normal; tails you’re a loonie.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Vinga: Daenerys haters see what they want to see.

      John Bradley talking through Sam’s perspective: “When she’s talking to him and she’s telling him about his own family, she’s telling him kind of without any sense of compassion at all. She comes at it in a very clinical way, and a very cold and a very detached way. And it feels psychopathic, really, that she didn’t offer him any kind of comfort at all.”

      NO CONCERN.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Worfwworfington:
      I fucking hope so. Emilia has her moments, but when it comes to this romance, she couldn’t act like she was falling if you pushed her off a cliff

      Ha ha!
      Or, as veteran catcher Crash Davis taunted rookie pitcher Nuke LaLoosh in “Bull Durham”:

      “You couldn’t hit water if you fell off a f*cking boat.”

        Quote  Reply

    53. JoeMagician:
      Sean C.,

      Indeed, however when you look at the rest of the marriages in the North and House Stark, that was an aberration not the rule. The vast majority were not with close relatives. Particularly recently. The Starks have changed tactics since then, and have been looking far outside the North for marriages. In Ned’s generation, they were bethrothed to Stormlanders, Riverlanders, and Ned may have been on his way to a match with Ashara Dayne. That’s not to say the Starks never married cousins, you’re exactly right on that! And with the historical context too.

      Targaryens regularly married siblings and aunts and uncles to nephews and nieces, and as Dany showed in the early chapters with her disappointment at not marrying Viserys *barf* it was a thing they grew up with. Jon did not grow up in that kind of familial structure and expectation, not by a long shot.

      Right. And the big joke of “the queen who bleeps her brother” is widespread and seen in a negative light at the moment d/t current events. His father died discovering that truth. His brother was crippled because of that truth. His sisters endangered etc.
      So while it might not be a deal breaker, I think it would only be natural for Jon to struggle a bit.
      Then again, they are very into each other and could realistically die at any moment, so there’s that.

        Quote  Reply

    54. Ten Bears,

      That’s not the case. There have been only a handful of “mad” Targaryens over the three centuries we have records for.

      MMJ,

      That’s clearly not Dany’s demeanour in the scene, though.

      As far as “offering comfort”, I would say that would have been very tone-deaf in the circumstances.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Ten Bears:
      Mango,

      I thought the message behind Targ inbreeding is that it gives offspring a 50%-50% chance of being a nutjob, i.e., the gods flip a coin: heads you’re normal; tails you’re a loonie.

      You made me laugh.

      Nope, my comment was not about the inbreeding itself. It is about the idea of a racially pure group. Or an effort to maintain racial purity to preserve the special features/talents/contributions of a particular group.

      As for the inbreeding…put it like this for the political implications. There are certain communities in the USA that have a large number of supporters of racial superiority that ALSO seem to have a very high number of marriages/progeny between close relatives. I think the overlap is accidental but it may have also been because of a refusal to marry/reproduce “out of the race” esp where the other non-family partners available in poor communities would be the wrong color. They may think the madness is a small price to pay.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Jenny,

      I felt the same lack of chemistry that you did and was also disappointed they couldnt have taken more time developing that. I definitely saw it more in the last episode.

      As I’ve been watching the past seasons, Dany really does rely on her dragons for protection. That plus her determination that she is destined to sit on the Iron Throne and nothing and no on will stop her, does not bode well for the relationship, and she will use any means nec to get what she thinks is hers by right. If she killed off Jon…..I hope not but that might go through her mind once she knows the truth.

      Actually what I really want to see is a Henry II situation that ended the first english civil war, ie, neither rules, their child rules with someone like Tyrion and Sansa acting as regent, jon marries dany and they go off to some summer isle…

        Quote  Reply

    57. JoeMagician,

      Question(s)/Semi Off Topic Hypotheticals:

      What would happen if Queen Daenerys, before getting wind of Jon’s real parentage, decides to surprise her sweetheart by legitimizing Jon Snow as Jon Stark? Would that moot the whole Targaryen heir question? Would that be revocable? (Ramsay Snow’s formal legitimization as Ramsay Bolton seemed unconditional, though I am still unclear how Walda’s baby would’ve taken precedence over Ramsay Bolton.)

      On a related note, not that Dany would necessarily want to have another claimant running around – but if she felt it would undermine Cersei’s claim, could Queen Daenerys legitimize Gendry Waters as Gendry Baratheon? And maybe make a deal with him that once he’s legitimized he’ll renounce any claim to the throne through his usurper father Robert, and thereby restore the Targaryen monarchy? She could throw in a Warden of the South title as part of the package, similar to the inducement Jaime used to induce Dickhead Tarly to support Cersei.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Worfwworfington:
      I fucking hope so. Emilia has her moments, but when it comes to this romance, she couldn’t act like she was falling if you pushed her off a cliff

      Lol! This captures my thoughts about Emilia’s work.

      This is the biggest problem with this romance – it is hard to care about something so badly portrayed.

        Quote  Reply

    59. RG: Right. And the big joke of “the queen who bleeps her brother” is widespread and seen in a negative light at the moment d/t current events. His father died discovering that truth. His brother was crippled because of that truth. His sisters endangered etc.
      So while it might not be a deal breaker, I think it would only be natural for Jon to struggle a bit.
      Then again, they are very into each other and could realistically die at any moment, so there’s that.

      Exactly. Of the two, more likely to be a problem for Jon but maybe not THE problem. They may be related but it’s not like Sansa or Arya who he was raised with and is also closely related to.

        Quote  Reply

    60. LadyLyanna:
      I’m rather annoyed with Sam’s reaction with Dany. His father hated him, scorned him, cast him to the Wall, and even hinted at killing Sam in an accident, in the books. Sam feared his father, and hardly knew his brother. This scenario just doesn’t seem to work for me…

      I did not have a good relationship with my mother, yet I sobbed like my heart was broken when she died. So I get how Sam reacted (there is also that feeling that now I will never get closure). He knew his brother growing up, surely they had good times together. So I get the emotion.

        Quote  Reply

    61. ash:
      Jenny,

      I felt the same lack of chemistry that you did and was also disappointed they couldnt have taken more time developing that.I definitely saw it more in the last episode.

      As I’ve been watching the past seasons, Dany really does rely on her dragons for protection.That plus her determination that she is destined to sit on the Iron Throne and nothing and no on will stop her, does not bode well for the relationship, and she will use any means nec to get what she thinks is hers by right. If she killed off Jon…..I hope not but that might go through her mind once she knows the truth.

      Actually what I really want to see is a Henry II situation that ended the first english civil war, ie, neither rules, their child rules with someone like Tyrion and Sansa acting as regent, jon marries dany and they go off to some summer isle…

      I am not sure why some think a child monarch ruling is a good idea. Anyway….

      Further, BEFORE the child has a right to the throne, at least one parent has to become King and/or Queen of Westeros. So Jon and/or Daenerys have : (i) to win the throne and (ii) them resolve which one will rule as monarch. One of them will need to surrender their claim – only one is the ruler, the other is consort.

        Quote  Reply

    62. MMJ,

      I don’t think there was no concern. She is just missing the empathy gene sometimes.

      When the whole “Well, he didn’t bend the knee” thing didn’t convince Sam, she had nothing. However, she clearly knew enough to excuse him when he wanted to bail.

      Here’s the thing: When Ned defeated Dayne, he took the sword to the Dayne family. Risked his life to do it.

      Far as we know (and the show is compressing things) Dany didn’t see fit to even send a raven to Tarlys wife.

      Dany doesn’t do well when faced with the consequences of her actions. Her redeeming feature so far is that she does seem to feel a little bad.

        Quote  Reply

    63. KlatschBoem:
      So based on previous years, can someone indicate the likelyhood of HBO Go servers being doomed for ep2? Last week the app and website crashed (HBO Portugal) at 2am and the ep was viewable at 3pm. Thanks.

      Make sure you are not using Chrome, for some reason it does not work well with HBO go I use edge or IE and haven’t had a problem.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Dyanna,

      I like how jhon Bradley puts it “A simple act of rebellion” and “A simple act of defiance” ..It’s like he forgot janos slynt or what sort of father He really is..

      Jhon Bradley as an actor was so good in that scene but this interview of Sam’s feeling makes Sam look like an hypocrite..

      The scene is very interesting from start..it starts with Sam admitting to stealing from his very own family..

      And the very first reaction Sam have in hearing his father’s death is that he can be given permission to enter the house now that his father is dead..

      Really great reaction right..and he expects dany to be emotional and sympathetic delivering that news when he himself takes the news of his father dying as a key to go home..pathetic I say..

      What dany said was truth ..everything happened the way it had..she might have decided not to tell Sam and it would have been wrong but she herself gave him the news..
      And all this fuss about she not telling jon is ridiculous because how can she know that he had a friend named Sam Tarly..

      And upon rewatch I did notice one thing no where in the episode that way Tarly’ s executed was brought up..
      I see no mention of burning ..sam has a problem that they were executed not burning..The burning thing is only made big in the fandom..
      Also one can’t take away the feeling that this all is forced and manufactured..
      One more reason to think why this is forced is where Sam’s story in the books and how he is connected to dany there..

      I really hope GRRM gives the TWOW soon so we can see what happens with dany after ADWD

        Quote  Reply

    65. Ten Bears,

      TB, you are aware of social matters. GOT has become an international phenomenon.

      Why did you think this trademark use was happening? Just recently we had the “game over” used as well. There was little discussion as WoW did not publish another article and the GOT staff did not respond.

      Think of the opportunity – A large population of fans open to the concept of racial purity among a “chosen people” who are born/empowered to rule and who limit/ avoid racial interbreeding.

      I also noted that certain known activists had become active in some internet websites used for GOT discussions.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Worfwworfington:
      MMJ,

      I don’t think there was no concern. She is just missing the empathy gene sometimes.

      When the whole “Well, he didn’t bend the knee” thing didn’t convince Sam, she had nothing. However, she clearly knew enough to excuse him when he wanted to bail.

      1) yeah clearly it didn’t convince Sam which made him realize that now he will be welcomed to his house..

      Talk about empathy that explains the empathy Sam had for his father..

      Here’s the thing: When Ned defeated Dayne, he took the sword to the Dayne family. Risked his life to do it.

      Far as we know (and the show is compressing things) Dany didn’t see fit to even send a raven to Tarlys wife.

      What exactly was ned risking here..how does that action compared with Dany and randyl..

      And dany should have sent a letter to Tarly’s…Lol you guys are really entertaining with all this stuff..

      Anyone want to bet that even if she did write a letter people will still say how she is not empathetic and not apologetic and so many other things ..

        Quote  Reply

    67. MMJ,

      Good luck with that..how does it work when one guy is Jon snow epitome of good and not wanting any power and other is power hungry mad queen according to fandom..

        Quote  Reply

    68. Thanks for the essay!! While I know it’s a possibility, I do hope another Dance of Dragons doesn’t happen but that’s a personal wish 😉 The set-up for conflict is there. Jon may not want it, but I can see others pushing his claim and positioning the two as rivals. Personally, I hope it doesn’t go down that way. I’m also fearful of the Nissa Nissa theory. And the NQ/NK theory. And I’ve also read many other theories that would be heartbreaking to me – basically, I’ll be crying no matter what 😉

      Worfwworfington:
      I don’t think there was no concern. She is just missing the empathy gene sometimes.

      Yeah, but I don’t think it’s a lack of empathy – I think it’s more a case of the Queenly mask. Whatever sympathies or empathy for Sam that she might be feeling, and I think she does, she just can’t show it or this can be seen as weakness/regret when she must look firm. Her expression and the look she exchanged with Jorah after Sam left tells me she doesn’t feel great.

      But I can see Sam viewing it as her being unconcerned.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Mango,

      I’m confused. What does this have to do with hypotheticals about legitimizing Jon as a Stark or Gendry as a Baratheon?

      As for my prior Targ incest offspring comment, I’m just going by the in-universe belief explained by Cersei, i.e., that the gods flip a coin to determine madness or normalcy.

      Are you saying there’s some undertone relating to current events involving “white nationalism”?

        Quote  Reply

    70. Adrianacandle,

      Why would she need/use a “queenly mask” when sharing heartbreaking news in such intimate circumstances? She is speaking to a man that risked his life to help Jorah, sitting in a library of Jon’s home (and also who is Jon’s best friend). He has recognized her as queen and even signaled warm friendliness by making a gentle joke about a pardon.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Ten Bears,

      We are speaking at cross-purposes.

      I am not all engaged with a discussion about Gendry….

      My comments are related to an article on use of GOT trademarks published here a few months ago, and to a theme in GOT about racial purity, and why this GOT trademark resonates in some population segments.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Mango,

      I wouldn’t say it’s about the “queenly mask”. She doesn’t know Sam at all, and is giving him what is obviously upsetting news that he will not be well-disposed toward her for. It’s extremely awkward, and I think trying to comfort him would be totally out of place; why would he want comfort from her in such circumstances?

        Quote  Reply

    73. Worfwworfington:
      MMJ,

      I don’t think there was no concern. She is just missing the empathy gene sometimes.

      When the whole “Well, he didn’t bend the knee” thing didn’t convince Sam, she had nothing. However, she clearly knew enough to excuse him when he wanted to bail.

      Here’s the thing: When Ned defeated Dayne, he took the sword to the Dayne family. Risked his life to do it.

      Far as we know (and the show is compressing things) Dany didn’t see fit to even send a raven to Tarlys wife.

      Dany doesn’t do well when faced with the consequences of her actions. Her redeeming feature so far is that she does seem to feel a little bad.

      Missing the empathy gene to me sounds like no concern for what she did or how Sam reacts though? Its probably worse to have no empathy.

      Keep in mind she withheld the method of execution so that will be another scene. They are dragging this out to really make a point.

      Dany would probably only show (fake) concern if she knew how close Jon and Sam were. She has no idea.

      Keep in mind Emilia said Dany cant get rid of these people and that she’s only trying to be nice because she likes Jon. Like what even is this?? It sounds so toxic for Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Mango,

      Because she doesn’t know Sam and isn’t familiar with him, she should be acting in a “professional” compacity with him. Friendliness/gratitude are much easier to show in a way that won’t compromise a firm stance, which Dany has re: execution of the Tarlys. If Dany were to openly show sympathy to Sam, it could make her look soft or regretful, which can be translated into a weakness – that emotions can alter her resolve.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Dragonbringer:
      MMJ,
      Good luck with that..how does it work when one guy is Jon snow epitome of good and not wanting any power and other is power hungry mad queen according to fandom..

      Lets see which of the two heroes will bend the knee to Cersei to save people’s lives in King’s Landing. To me that’s what Sam’s question “would she do the same?” seems to foreshadow.

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    76. MMJ,

      So now it’s a question of who is bending the knee to cersei ..I didn’t know about it..

      Maybe everyone should just bend the knee to NK and done with it

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    77. Dragonbringer:
      MMJ,

      So now it’s a question of who is bending the knee to cersei ..I didn’t know about it..

      Maybe everyone should just bend the knee to NK and done with it

      I just made up a scenario, but I do think its a question that will be answered: is Dany willing to do the same thing with her title as Jon did to save her people?

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    78. Tar

      Simply based on the previously mentioned actor scuttlebutt and the irresistible plot circularity, I think Robin Arryn will wind up on the Throne.

      Somebody please kill me if that happens.

        Quote  Reply

    79. MMJ: I just made up a scenario, but I do think its a question that will be answered: is Dany willing to do the same thing with her title as Jon did to save her people?

      She pretty much already did by putting aside her quest for the throne and risking everything – her armies, her dragons, her own life – to go North and help defend it while the rest of Westeros doesn’t give a crap. She’s literally the only one from “the outside” who showed up. Plus, she agreed to help expecting nothing in return – she said they will defeat the NK together BEFORE Jon bent the knee.

      Which can serve as a reminder of that one time Dark Dany already risked her life to save Jon’s ass beyond the Wall and ended up losing Viserion in the process.

      So, this question is invalid, but it certainly pours gasoline onto that Dany hate fire and I hate that they’ve done that. She may be one of the most misunderstood characters in TV history already.

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    80. MMJ: John Bradley talking through Sam’s perspective: “When she’s talking to him and she’s telling him about his own family, she’s telling him kind of without any sense of compassion at all. She comes at it in a very clinical way, and a very cold and a very detached way. And it feels psychopathic, really, that she didn’t offer him any kind of comfort at all.”

      NO CONCERN.

      I sharply disagreed with Bradley’s words and thought it was an example of the cast/crew hyperexaggerating or trying to stir controversy. What he described wasn’t the take used in the episode.

      Anyways, I can’t see the romance or both Jon & Dany surviving. Tend to think he’s more likely to die if it’s only one of them, since it seems as though the resurrected are brought back for some particular reason, but beyond that…no guarantees.

      Couldn’t agree with you more, Vinga.

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    81. It’s absolutely a tragic love story in one way or another, and GRRM’s particular rendition of “bittersweet” definitely includes tragedy, as much as some would rather not hear it. Honestly I don’t know how anyone could listen to their love theme and think they’re going to have anything close to a fairy tale ending. It might as well be the Song of Ice and Fire from the books, Rhaegar’s song that was so sad and beautiful it made Lyanna weep.

      A huge theme of the story is that history repeats, which is why you see so much parallelism and different characters repeating the same mistakes. To quote what Gorge Lucas once said about Star Wars: “It’s like poetry, it rhymes.”

      The amount of foreshadowing of this relationship ending in some form of tragedy (quite possibly in at least one of their deaths–if I had to choose I would lean more towards Jon as he’s too much of a traditionally heroic, sacrificial, mythic figure for this story, and we’re still constantly being reminded of his resurrection) is vast and too much to cover, even in just the show. There’s even more thematic evidence to support it in the books. At the very least, though, their romantic relationship is doomed regardless. It was doomed as soon as it started.

      Even though the dialogue in the show has definitely gotten a lot less subtle over the last few seasons, I was surprised at how on the nose they were with this in the season premiere, since they effectively had Varys say it outright. Indeed, it was a strong thematic statement in general. “Nothing lasts.”

      Love is the death of duty. Only death can pay for life. So many reminders. There will be dire consequences to their relationship, it’s inevitable. But from whatever and whoever is left behind in the end, a dream of spring will blossom.

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    82. I’m torn on what Dany’s reaction will be. Everyone seems convinced she’d be pissed like she’s hell bent power hungry and will stop at nothing to take the throne. I understand she talks about it a lot, but she’s never sought power for its own sake. She had no plans or desires to sit the Iron Throne until Viserys was dead. She only sacked Astapor and took over Slaver’s Bay after witnessing how the masters treated people and wanting to put an end to it. She didn’t specifically go there to conquer. Finding out she isn’t the last of her house after all and isn’t even the legal heir to her father might well be a relief. If she cares at all about her family’s restoration and the continuation of the Targaryen dynasty, it has a heck of a better chance of happening with Jon than with her. Jon is of Westeros and loved by many already. He has the solid backing of kingdoms that have been in rebellion for years and aren’t exactly thrilled about the idea of bowing to a foreign conqueror.

      Although I have to say this point, in my best Jon voice, who cares! The entire point of the story is that it doesn’t matter who sits the Iron Throne. It was Jeor’s plea to Jon all the way back in season one. And there are five episodes left. The next two will be fully consume with the war against the dead. Then there are three left. I doubt the Night King, the ultimate enemy who has been resting beneath the ice for 8,000 years waiting for the longest winter, who has been built up as the big bad since the cold open to the pilot, is just going to be defeated in a single episode. And there’s still Cersei to deal with.

      When in the final three episodes are they going to have time to deal with all that and still pit Jon and Dany against each other? There is no man that Dany has spent her life idolizing and looking up to more than her dead big brother Rhaegar. And her first thought at learning he has a living heir is going to be “oh crap, I better kill this guy so he doesn’t press his claim?” She isn’t Cersei. Jon might have some people questioning him right now, but he’s one of the most beloved persons in Westeros and a legend in the north. Her hope of ever ruling after killing him is zero. The Vale, the North, the Riverlands, the Free Folk will never forgive her. Tyrion and Varys won’t forgive her. Even Jorah might finally quit her.

      If Jon actually presses his claim, she has no choice but to let him. Luckily for her, he doesn’t want to. But it shouldn’t even matter. Her entire claim is being Aerys’ legal heir. As soon as she finds out she isn’t, she no longer has that. She’s no longer the rightful queen. She’s just a conqueror. That was fine in Slaver’s Bay where she was conquering evil people. She could probably even convince herself that conquering is fine in Westeros if it means deposing the Lannisters. But how is she ever going to justify herself to herself if it means killing her father’s legal heir? Daenerys may or may not be a good person, depending on which faction of fandom you ask. But she definitely thinks of herself as a good person. And her followers do, too. If she starts a civil war over learning someone else in her own family is ahead of her in the line of succession, she loses that.

      And there will be three episodes to do that! 71, 72, and 73 out of 73. That is far too deep into the game to introduce new conflicts. They need to resolve the existing ones.

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    83. Mango,

      “My comments are related to an article on use of GOT trademarks published here a few months ago, and to a theme in GOT about racial purity, and why this GOT trademark resonates in some population segments.”

      ______
      My bad. I missed your references. Sorry. And I was not aware that the GoT trademark resonates in certain population segments (other than a certain cantaloupe Caligula plagiarizing its distinctive slogans and font a few months ago.)

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    84. I just can’t envision any scenario where Jaegon and Dany end up together. It’s just too…easy. And as much as there’s a lot of romance in GoT, it’s not exactly the kind of story that you envision as a happily ever after fairytale. I predict more of a Romeo and Juliet type conclusion for them, or one sacrifices themselves for the other, or they both live but are no longer together.

      I also always think back to Dany when she was trapped in the House of the Undying and her vision of Khal Drogo in the tent with their child. Something tells me that scene was not just about “saying goodbye” to her husband. I’m not saying that something mystical will happen to bring him back, but perhaps it is metaphorical for their ultimate reunion in death. (I’m aware there are other theories for these visions, I’m just thinking out loud here :).

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    85. Vinga: She pretty much already did by putting aside her quest for the throne and risking everything – her armies, her dragons, her own life – to go North and help defend it while the rest of Westeros doesn’t give a crap. She’s literally the only one from “the outside” who showed up. Plus, she agreed to help expecting nothing in return – she said they will defeat the NK together BEFORE Jon bent the knee.

      Which can serve as a reminder of that one time Dark Dany already risked her life to save Jon’s ass beyond the Wall and ended up losing Viserion in the process.

      So, this question is invalid, but it certainly pours gasoline onto that Dany hate fire and I hate that they’ve done that. She may be one of the most misunderstood characters in TV history already.

      Jon didn’t say anything about how Dany saved them and agreed to help to the Northern lords though. Why do you think that is? If she’s so heroic…why doesn’t he mention that big hero moment? Why does he frame it to the Northerners as having a choice, bend the knee to save the North (this actually makes Dany look like the bad party, but she doesn’t catch it) or keep his crown. He chose the North, implying that he’s Torrhen Stark kneeling in fear because Dany/Aegon would never, ever yield. Then Sam affirms thats what Jon did, and asks if she could ever yield up her title when needed. Seems like thats the dilemma coming for her.

      Jon is saying titles don’t matter but the elephant in the room is that they matter to Dany. The contrast couldn’t be clearer. The Starks understand that they have to earn respect. She wants respect simply because of her title. The Northerners just arent impressed that Dany decided to postpone her fight with Cersei. Its like…why should we give you credit for doing that? Who cares. Jon gave up his title and took a real risk. She did not move her armies North until she was sure she wasn’t at a disadvantage in the South. Thats not very impressive. She has the veneer of heroism but not much substance.

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    86. Azor Asshai,

      “Honestly I don’t know how anyone could listen to their love theme and think they’re going to have anything close to a fairy tale ending. It might as well be the Song of Ice and Fire from the books, Rhaegar’s song that was so sad and beautiful it made Lyanna weep.”
      ***
      “The amount of foreshadowing of this relationship ending in some form of tragedy….

      __________
      Without being critical of the acting or dialogue, I’ve got to admit that I’m not emotionally invested enough in the Dany-Jon romance to feel sadness or angst over a tragic ending if they split up, or if one or both die.
      For my personal tastes only, there wasn’t enough heart to heart wordplay to establish an emotional connection – either before boatsex or during their post-dragon riding embrace. (“Keep your queen warm”? That’s it?)

      With the admission that I am not objective, I felt more emotional connection in Arya’s roughly one minute scene with Gendry than in all of Jon & Dany’s scenes.

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    87. I love Jon. I do. And I want him to be happy, but I’ve basically always been prepared for him not to be. Alive? Yes, please. Happy? Eh. Maybe?

      The long term love stories (with hints laid out all through the books and show) like Brienne and Jaime and Arya and Gendry, have been way more obvious. I’ve known Jon and Dany would meet since her vision in the house of the undying, but their union always seemed to be more about this great battle than a happily ever after. And that’s completely ignoring their differing leadership styles and clashing personality types.
      I do like them together, though, in spite of all that.

      PS I know Braime won’t end well either. That doesn’t mean I don’t still want it to happen. Just acknowledgment that it exists at least. For me? *looks longingly at Tarth*
      Arya and Gendry I want to get married. And I’ll believe it until the credits roll.
      Sansa and the Hound? Probably not.
      Sansa and Pod? I want it, but probably not.
      We’ll always have Sam and Gilly.
      I think.

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    88. Ten Bears:
      Tar,

      Applying circularity, the only one to hit the bullseye in S1e1 was…. Arya.

      All hail Queen ASNAWP, Arya Stark of Winterfell, First of Her Name, Protector of the Realm, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, and Cold Little Bitch.

      Long may she reign! 👸🏻

      All right. Gotcha down for that one.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Adam,

      I think Jon would just as soon keep the secret a secret – just like Ned did. Too many complications arise from its disclosure.

      Unfortunately, Sam now seems hell bent on Jon displacing Dany, and for some as-yet unarticulated reason Bran thinks it’s critical that the truth comes out.

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    90. LadyLyanna,

      “Hardly knew his brother”? They grew up together! Sam’s first reaction to hearing of his father’s death was to say that at least, with Horn Hill in Dickon’s hands, he could go home now. He was not mourning his father, he was mourning Dickon.

      I didn’t interpret Sam’s reaction to Daenerys executing both father and brother as grief for both. Rather, I saw it as shock that she would execute anyone (someone, I forget who, recently referred to them as POWs). After all, Daenerys would have known nothing of Randyll’s personal character, much less his cruelty towards Sam.

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    91. Ten Bears,

      I was completely talking in terms of intent in the narrative and story, which is totally separate from how believable it may or may not be. Obviously it can’t really have the intended effect on people who aren’t as invested in it–and honestly, when it comes to the strength and believability of all the relationships on the show, I have to agree with you. Jon/Dany might be the most important relationship story-wise, but unfortunately it isn’t among the strongest on the show. And yes, a big part of that vs. Arya/Gendry is that Joe and Maisie simply sell the chemistry between Arya and Gendry a lot better than Kit and Emilia do for Jon and Dany, even when given less screen time.

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    92. RG: PS I know Braime won’t end well either. That doesn’t mean I don’t still want it to happen.

      Fair enough, but personally I’m rooting for Brienne and Tormund. Every woman deserves a man who desires her for who she is, not in spite of it.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Azor Asshai,

      I think it’s because Arya and Gendry had like 2 seasons to build their “relationship” while Jon and Dany had just a few speaking scenes together last season and then boom… boat sex happened. Not enough build-up. I have a feeling the books would be able to build up the Jon-Dany union so, so, so much better. However, I’m not sure if those last 2 books are ever coming out. Sigh.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Adam,

      THIS. There is still a possibility that Dani would welcome the news. She thought she’s all alone and all of a sudden she’s got family? Plus, it’s Jon! She might actually feel happy about it. We’ll see. So excited for the coming episode.

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    95. Azor Asshai: I have to agree with you. Jon/Dany might be the most important relationship story-wise, but unfortunately it isn’t among the strongest on the show.

      I agree. I think S7 was so very rushed that the chemistry didn’t have time to develop naturally. It felt forced. The dragon ride scene in Ep1 was the first time I saw anything resembling sparks (when they were joking right before).

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    96. ThisGirlHasNoName,

      I can’t deny I adore Tormund (have the shirt and everything) and that actor has thrown a wrench into my otherwise perfect love for this particular story arc, but I still think Brienne and Jaime’s stories are inextricably linked.
      I wouldn’t mind a love triangle side quest though. Brienne deserves to have men fighting for her. 🙂

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    97. MMJ: Jon didn’t say anything about how Dany saved them and agreed to help to the Northern lords though. Why do you think that is? If she’s so heroic…why doesn’t he mention that big hero moment?

      The thing is, he should have said that. He literally wouldn’t have been standing there talking to those northern lords if it hadn’t been for Daenerys. I know Jon sucks at PR (see Hardhome, where he told the free folk that he had put an arrow through Mance’s heart without giving any context), but he basically lied by ommission (after refusing to lie to Cersei and giving this big speech about how lies won’t help them in this war etc.)
      Which could be because either:

      – Jon isn’t as crystal clear as most think he is (and he isn’t),
      – or D&D want drama in Winterfell for the sake of drama just like last season to have something to fill those first episodes with,
      – or D&D forgot the plot they wrote last season.

      As for their relationship, I think if Daenerys is pregnant, they will marry. The last thing Jon would want is to father a bastard, he said it himself in the earlier seasons. Whether they live or not, that’s a whole other question. But this story is about them both EQUALLY and we’ve heard the word “together” enough times last season. So either they both live, or both die. My money is on live. Like someone said earlier, either Jon or Dany dying at this point would make this story tragic, not bittersweet.

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    98. Whatever happened to Daenerys horse ‘the silver’, vanished after season 6, Drogon eat it?
      She was not riding it in 8×1

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    99. Slightly irrelevant, but I must say Northerner or not, foreign queen (and daughter of a manically deranged homicidal king at that) or not, people should be damn happy Daenerys is on their side, with what is coming and all. They behave like spoiled brats and she should probably just take her dragons and armies back to Essos and let them fight the dead alone, with their pride (and prejudice) intact.
      Same about that moronic quip by Sansa, worrying how she’ll feed the newcomers (and the moronic reaction by commentators, praising her good sense and all). Well sis, don’t you worry, there is no long siege ahead. The dead are here and in a couple of days you can either all go back home or will never be hungry again (save for fresh human meat I guess).
      The only excuse I can think for that lame behaviour is that the Northerners have not seen the kidnapped zombie to really grasp what their fate will surely be without Daenerys and I do blame the show writers for making John say the most bland things again and again instead of really explaining what’s the deal.
      I hope all this nonsense will stop in episode 2.

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    100. Maybe someone has mentioned this but … if the show wanted to do a big callback to Season 1 they could have Tyrion working out Jon is Targaryen by reading a book 🙂

      I’m not sure if Jon is going to tell Dany, honestly. He doesn’t want it to be true, he doesn’t want to sit on the Iron Throne, they have other things to focus on … I could see him putting it off and simply withdrawing affection, to her confusion.

      I’m not very invested in their romance. Unfortunately, as many others have said, they just don’t have great chemistry. Contrary to some, though I do think Emilia is doing a better job selling it, or at least trying to. Kit just looks uncomfortable with the whole romance. Maybe IRL he is.

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    101. Wolfish,

      “Hardly knew his brother”? They grew up together! Sam’s first reaction to hearing of his father’s death was to say that at least, with Horn Hill in Dickon’s hands, he could go home now. He was not mourning his father, he was mourning Dickon.

      I didn’t interpret Sam’s reaction to Daenerys executing both father and brother as grief for both. Rather, I saw it as shock that she would execute anyone (someone, I forget who, recently referred to them as POWs). After all, Daenerys would have known nothing of Randyll’s personal character, much less his cruelty towards Sam.”

      _______________

      • I think I referred to them as POWs – which they were, since the battle was over. I felt – and feel – that executing POWs is a war crime, in this fictional world or in the real world.

      Also, as somebody else commented, in the GoT world captures noblemen and their sons were usually kept as hostages, either to trade for the enemy’s prisoners during a war [e.g. Jaime], or kept as “wards” after the war to insure that the defeated insurgents have second thoughts before trying to launch another insurrection [e.g. Theon Greyjoy]. In this case, for example, Dany could have arguably sought to exchange Randyll Tarly for Yara Greyjoy.

      • Dany could have rightfully charged Dickhead Tarly with treason for betraying House Tyrell, and sentenced him to death for that. But she didn’t. It was because of her “kneel or fry”/”join me or die” ultimatum – the same kind of stunt that repulsed Jon when Stannis pulled it on Mance.

      • Nevertheless, I agree that it wasn’t Dickhead Tarly’s death that really devastated Sam. After all, his jerk father had disinherited him and threatened to kill him if he didn’t take the black. And even after Sam had joined the NW, his schmuck of a father had to fat-shame him on his stopover to Horn Hill on the way to the Citadel.

      • As I understood it, it was Dickon’s (unnecessary) execution that really got to Sam and made him question Dany’s moral fitness. Though Sam didn’t know it, Dany had stubbornly disregarded her political advisor’s vehement objections to executing both father and son. And Tyrion was right. There was no need to barbecue Dickon. It wouldn’t have undermined Dany’s victory by letting Dickon sit in a cell for a few days to contemplate his situation. Further, Tyrion had been “hired” in the first place after explaining that killing and politics are two different things, and impressing on Dany that she should seek to inspire devotion in the people she intended to rule. “Do what I say or I’ll incinerate you” is hardly a winning campaign slogan for a challenger seeking to oust the incumbent.

      • It also seemed to me that Randyll, an old soldier, had had his glory days already and almost looked forward to a memorable death, while purporting to stand on principle. But letting his young son die with him was inexcusable. He could’ve and should’ve saved Dickon. He could’ve ensured the survival of House Tarly. He could’ve spared his wife and daughter the anguish of losing their son and brother, and the sole heir to House Tarly. It was selfish of Dickhead to take Dickon to an early death.

      • So, I concur that Sam was not mourning Dickhead. He was mourning Dickon. At the same time, I think he was stunned at the barbarity of what Dany had done.

      • If that episode was intended to show people how she’s going to “break the wheel” and make their world a better place, she failed miserably. That she managed to alienate Jon’s beloved friend in the process made it even worse. Perceptions matter. Undoubtedly, to many people Randyll emerged as a martyr and Dany demonstrated that she truly is the Mad King’s Daughter.

      P.S. I referred to Randyll as “Dickhead” because SpellCheck refuses to let me type “Randyll” without a fight… and because he really was a dickhead to his entire family.

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    102. Personal tinfoil:

      In the books either Jon or Daenerys should survive (they are the main characters). Having them as lovers and one dying would be bittersweet, maybe cliche, but having them to battle each other doesn’t seem according to the characters, at least to me. They are for sure not going to fight before the NK and Cersei are defeated. And I don’t see why they should hate each other afterwards. In the books I can imagine a dance of the dragons between Daenerys and fAegon, but with Jon?

      Daenerys her arc comes to closure by realizing she’s not the last Targaryen, which could be more important for her than occupying the Iron Throne. However, I also fear that she will not survive the war of the dawn, and somehow she will light her third fire and sacrifice herself for her people (thus answering Sam’s question). Maybe she loses her dragons first and gets a child, but dying in childbirth would be a bit lame, I think. If she survives the long night and Varys/Tyrion/Sam start plotting against her, it could be that she acts violently and this causes a second dance, but since Cersei already has so much of Aerys, I hope that Daenerys has something of Rhaenys as well, and she will be happy to rule together with her last relative.

      Jon may get the bittersweet ending in the sense that he loses his lover and he has to continue Daenerys her Targaryen legacy. Aegon VI will get the help of his sisters/cousins (no incest implied!) in taking and ruling King’s Landing as Stark-Targaryen, which would be a fitting end for Sansa (forgot which sister that was) and Arya (-> Visenya) as well. About the succession, I’m not sure, maybe they establish a different system like in the NW, and the IT is abolished (btw, I never realized before it actually looks like a dragon’s neck). Certainly Cersei’s unborn child is not going to be the heir, whether Tyrion promised that or not.

      I’m not against Daenerys surviving and Jon dying, or both living happily afterwards, but I see it as less likely. Personally, although it went a bit fast and Davos shouldn’t spell it out for us, I had no trouble with the interaction between Kit and Emilia in season 7. If one looks at the scenes where Djawadi’s truth is appearing from 7.3 to 7.7, they do seem to become closer from one episode to the next, together with the music. Although most of the time Kit acts like he doesn’t want it to interfere with Jons mission (which is not unlike Jon). I don’t want to start a discussion, everybody sees what they see, I just want to balance a little bit the skeptical opinions on this page. During/after season 2, I also saw comments that Kit and Rose had zero chemistry together when playing Jon and Ygritte.

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    103. JoeMagician: Indeed I do. Or at least, that’s what I think the writers are setting up for them in the viewers’s mind. I doubt Jon and Dany would have a mishap over poison and a missed letter though.

      I do actually wonder if this might lead to a Nissa Nissa moment. Quite doubtful as she’s never mentioned in the show, but their tale is as close to Romeo and Juliet as Planetos has.

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    104. Sean C.: This is not true.Jon’s maternal grandparents, Lord Rickard and Lady Lyarra, were first cousins once removed.Lord Cregan Stark also took as his third wife a cousin, Lady Lynara, and Lord Cregan’s two eldest sons by Lady Lynara married their nieces, the daughters of Lord Cregan’s son by his first wife.Cousin marriages are no problem at all in the North.And that’s merely what we know of House Stark itself, not including instances of vassal house marriages that either happened or were proposed.

      Aunt is closer than cousin and much closer than cousin once removed. Aunt would actually be sister once removed since Dany is sister to one generation away from Jon.

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    105. I think its safe to say they are doomed, Vayrs promised not to betray her but will, he was even told by the priestess as long as you remain loyal there is no issue, Tyrion has been betraying her for a while now it appears ,
      sansa dislikes her, Ayra already said put family first jon, and now sam wants jon on the iron throne, add to that all the other signs and jon being a noble fool and might not like dating his auntie, plus jamie etc, it spells trouble for jon and any
      The dragon joy ride was like ingrit in the cave with jon, we should stay here and be happy, that says they will regret they didn’t again,
      she said in a interview a bad taste of what she becomes, so for me its either going full mad queen after they betray her burning kings landing down, getting to the throne, and then giving it up or she turns into a walker, but either way it wont end well.
      i blame jon, for a hero he is not the sharpest tool in the box

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    106. Sou:

      “….Same about that moronic quip by Sansa, worrying how she’ll feed the newcomers (and the moronic reaction by commentators, praising her good sense and all). Well sis, don’t you worry, there is no long siege ahead. The dead are here and in a couple of days you can either all go back home or will never be hungry again (save for fresh human meat I guess).
      The only excuse I can think for that lame behaviour is that the Northerners have not seen the kidnapped zombie to really grasp what their fate will surely be without Daenerys and I do blame the show writers for making John say the most bland things again and again instead of really explaining what’s the deal.”…

      1. About Sansa’s “moronic quip” wondering how she’ll feed the newcomers:

      (a) If she’s as “smart” and “savvy” as we’ve been told, she would’ve made contingency plans as soon as she learned Jon, Dany & her armies were on their way to WF, e.g., requisition all available ships to travel across the Narrow Sea and elsewhere to try to obtain food. The effort might’ve been unsuccessful, but a prudent leader would have tried to do something instead of waiting and whinging.

      (b) It was impolite and just bad politics to snark at Dany. As you observed, whether Dany’s the daughter of a deranged, despised deposed king, or whether she seduced Jon into giving up his crown and the North’s sovereignty, she’s still there with a huge army and WMDs to help defend the North from an existential threat. People can bitch all they want about crowns, titles and kingdoms IF they’re still alive after the great war. Without Dany’s help, they’re all virtually assured of joining young Ned Umber as severed limbs in NK’s spiral artwork interior decorating projects.

      (c) Sansa could have at least been creative in her quips. Something like this….

      Sansa: “We don’t have enough food stored to feed our people, our armies, and your dragons. I’ve received reports that you burned 1,000 horse-drawn wagons full of food from the Reach. Is that true?

      Dany: “I gave them a choice. Bend the knee and join me, or refuse and burn. They refused to kneel.”

      Sansa: “Are you a Horse Whisperer?”

      Dany: “No. Why?”

      Sansa: “So the horses didn’t kneel, and therefore you fried them and all the food you were going to use to feed your armies.”

      Dany: “Ummmm…”

      Sansa (buried head in hands and whispers to Tyrion): “We’re f*cked.”
      Sansa (whispers to Jon): “Where’d you find this firebug chick? What were you thinking? Or did your Johnson hijack your brain?”

      2. That’s exactly right. None of the Northerners except exile Jorah Mormont have seen a zombie. Jon needed to put on a Wight-in-a-Box show and tell for the Northerners, not just Cersei. Mumbo jumbo like “the enemy doesn’t wait out the storm; he brings the storm” doesn’t quite have the same impact.

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    107. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I read the script just now from episode 7 of season 7, and the script states it’s a white walker.

      https://www.emmys.com/sites/default/files/collateral/118%20Game%20Of%20Thrones%20-%20The%20Dragon%20and%20the%20Wolf.pdf

      A massive chunk of the Wall breaks free ahead of Tormund. The
      ice dragon glides away, and we get our first clear look at
      him, and at the Night King on his back. He’s done the same
      thing to Viserion that he did to Craster’s sons. Only those
      were babies, and this is a dragon.

      and then:
      The ice dragon keeps blasting until a huge breach has been
      opened, one large enough to admit the Army of the Dead, all
      100,000 of them. And the White Walkers. And the Night King,
      flying low over their heads, into the camera —
      — and away from it. All of them heading south, for the world
      of men.
      END OF SEASON 7

      It’s the last 2 pages you must read.

      Vyserion is a white walker, Shocked. That even makes it worse in my opinion.

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    108. Vinga: Daenerys haters see what they want to see.

      Please stop with calling people Daenerys haters, most of the people who have concerns about Dany aren’t haters at all, most like her character, or most liked her character. Don’t make up words to let Dany get away with her mistakes. (I call them mistakes instead of evil deeds because I don’t see them as evil but I see them as big mistakes)

      And we don’t say Dany was cold in that moment we say Sam interpreted her as being cold hearted in that moment. Which could be because she is just tired from her cold welcome. But Sam’s interpretation is important for how the rest will react.

      So it’s not if Dany is evil or good, it’s how other characters will see her that will be important.

      MMJ,

      +1 But I want to add one thing, I think Dany lack of emotion is forced by herself, I think she learned that if she feel everything she will be broken in no time. Like some sort of defense.

      Dragonbringer,

      Big difference there:
      NW is an ancient institute from more than 8000 years, with a set of rules that is know to men from birth to death. Once the go to the wall they know what is waiting there for them. They make an oath and after that the rules are clear. disobey and death penalty.
      The NW can be seen as an military institute.

      Dany is not even the rightful queen at the moment. Yes she has the birthright but she’s not rightful at the moment. Cersei is. Dany is at this moment an usurper. Who is trying to gain the right to rule again in Westeros. And after that her set of rules applied.
      Dany can be seen as the ruler of the people.

      just like in real life a ruler of a military institute and the ruler of the people have different rules. Where if you disobbey an order as a militair you will be thrown in military jail (the ruler is one of the military). A ruler for the people can’t force you to follow their orders. You can’t be thrown in jail because you won’t bow to them, or follow them.

      Dany is also trying to break the wheel, meaning she never should have asks somebody to bow to them what she did in eastwatch, that is in fact upholding the wheel. She should have let them know she will not let them bow to her because she is different than Cersei. But what she ask of them is not to raise a single hair to her or her people . That she make sure the people know that she is bringing freedom.

      So no, we don’t hate Dany or having double standards. It’s just that the same rules don’t apply with the deaths of the Tarly’s and that of Janos slynt, and for that you can just look up the real world with military and for instance in america now where the common people won’t be thrown in jail because they won’t follow trump.

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    109. Dragonbringer,

      Have to agree here with you, sending a letter sounds not really a priority at that time. And maybe she send one once back at dragonstone, they skipped a lot of time.

      Dragonbringer,

      We never stated she was that, we stated the characters can interpreted her like that. Her first concern is family, deep down. But she forgets that. She is to focused on her throne right now that she forget her longing for family. And the big question is if she loses Jon because Jon chooses Sam and his family. How will that react to her. can she overcome that.

      Adrianacandle,

      +1 but not a queenly mask, just a mask so she won’t cry herself to sleep. Because that would have happened if she let her emotions to be shown. I think she would start to hate and doubt herself and that’s not advisable.

      I think it’s like real life politics, a leader can’t be weak because they need to be strong to other countries. But at the same time we hate a candidate who lacks emotion. It’s very difficult to get the right balance.

      MMJ,

      Bullshit comparison. What Sam meant was that Jon bow to Dany to keep the north safe from the WW. And Sam asked if Dany would do the same so that the mistrust in the north will fade away everybody can come together under Jon and they can fight along side to defeat the WW and the country can heal after that.

      The citizens of KL are never safe as long as Cersei is queen. So bowing to her to keep them safe is a bullshit comparison. Where if Dany bow to Jon if will in fact lead to a more peaceful resolution. The only problem that I can see arise are the dothraki not wanting to follow Jon, but the unsullied will if Dany made that clear.

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    110. kevin1989,

      The problem is that Daenerys has spent years working towards that goal and people were complaining about her being entitled, her claim to the throne not being a true claim because the Targaryens were overthrown etc. And not it’s the same people who are cheering for Jon because he’s the righful heir… of that same family and how she should bow to him simply because he’s existing.

      Hell, it took Daenerys 5 seasons to finally ride Drogon and Jon rode Rheagal just like that. Talk about a person having “everything handed to him”.

      That’s exactly the double standard I’m talking about. Is she a flawed character? Yes she is, just like any other character on this show because they’re all fleshed out and very human. However, this doesn’t make her “a tyrant” or “a mad queen”. Yes, she has a capacity for being ruthless because she has to in this world, otherwise she would be dead already. But she’s never been cruel just for the sake of cruelty. She offered the Tarlys mercy TWICE and twice they refused.

      Also, I think what a lot of people are missing is that she’s finally found family. After all, “a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing”. And ultimately that’s gonna be the most important thing, or at least that’s what I think.

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    111. ThisGirlHasNoName: Fair enough, but personally I’m rooting for Brienne and Tormund. Every woman deserves a man who desires her for who she is, not in spite of it.

      Yes, I agree that a girl deserves a man who desires her for who she is – in Brienne’s case that would be Jaime and not Tormund.

      Brienne and Jaime spent a long time together in difficult circumstances – they know each other deeply. And love, respect and desire each other because of exactly who the other person is as a human being. This is what works in a long run successful relationship.

      Tormund has never spoken to Brienne and has no idea who Brienne is – in fact, he may find that he does not even like her as a person. At the moment, he does not know her. He “loves” how she looks – that is good but it is an insufficient basis to build a long term relationship.

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    112. The difference between dany and other rulers is, she is learning, that is her whole arc, she is trying to be good and do the right thing, where as the other rulers have not,
      which is why she has asked advice , ignored advice and tried to be her own person and tried new things, the whole story is her beaten and used but becoming strong, the same as a lot of the female characters,
      She wants to break the wheel, but to break it you need loyalty and you need to get rid of the old guard & those who mean to do you harm, her actions so far are perfectly normal, to lead , as she was told your a dragon be a dragon,
      so far she has been nice and patient, and been good to those who dislike her, but she wont for long when she is betrayed, then i expect to see no mercy vengeance with a redemption ending. the bitter sweet ending

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    113. Ginevra,

      I don’t think Jon & Dany are all that close to Romeo & Juliet. Romeo & Juliet is a tragedy of two kids who faced a problem and escaped insted of trying to solve it – it’s more about the problems resulting from the style of medieval parenting and imposed behavior models, just like many other dramas of that period build around young lovers being affraid to tell their parents the truth. Keeping that in mind, I expect a more adult behavior from Jon & Dany: yes, the world will try to tear them appart; yes, they will have to deal with very complex problems; but they should find a solution for the sake of both common and personal good. Otherwise, what’s the point of following losers? It’s victors who count.

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    114. What if that in the end jon & cersei VS dany? Maybe the scene that jon in KL with cersei are asking some help to cersei to defeat dany

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    115. Vinga,

      True but that’s why many stated she “acts like a Tyrant” not that she is. She needs to learn how she is being perceived. In essos people saw who she really is because they didn’t care about her past. In westeros they do, the whole Mad King part is still very fresh in the minds of those people there. They are afraid, and now Dany has 2 fire breathing monsters (in their mind) who could do even more damage than Aerys could ever have done.
      Dany need to be on her feet to never ever look even a single bit like her father. Burning her father we understand why she did it, and that she was not fully wrong there. But not the citizens of Westeros, they see it as “burning people like her father” and you can’t blame them.

      Melio,

      If that happen, I hope they build it just right in episode 2 till 4. And that Cersei will not be shown as the hero of the story.

      For me every outcome is fine, Dany Jon together, Dany against Jon, Dany staying good, staying going evil etc. As long as it’s portrait in a good way.

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    116. Sam:
      Azor Asshai,
      I think it’s because Arya and Gendry had like 2 seasons to build their “relationship” while Jon and Dany had just a few speaking scenes together last season and then boom… boat sex happened. Not enough build-up. I have a feeling the books would be able to build up the Jon-Dany union so, so, so much better. However, I’m not sure if those last 2 books are ever coming out. Sigh.

      The thing I love about Arya/Gendry and Jamie/Brienne is that their relationships didn’t start out as a romance. They built up from friendship, respect, and trust. There is such substance to them.

      I don’t know how to put it exactly, but there is also an element of unlikeliness to overcome in each one. That is, for Arya/Gendry, Arya doesn’t seem like the kind of person who would be interested in being with someone because she is so independent and free-spirited, but in Gendry she has found someone who accepts her for who she is. And Arya isn’t the typical kind of “lady” that Gendry would be used to meeting.

      For Jaime, Brienne isn’t the traditionally beautiful woman you would expect him to be with. But more importantly, Brienne represents the kind of person he wishes he could be, or wants to be. There is such a pureness to her that brings out the goodness in Jaime that makes this relationship so good, deep, and layered.

      Then there’s of course the chemistry between Maisie and Joe, and Nic and Gwen that just oozes off the screen. I can’t help but grin like a lovestruck dolt when Arya/Gendry and Jaime/Brienne are on screen.

      That being said, I don’t mind Jon & Dany. It doesn’t feel near as substantive as the aforementioned relationships, but I think what makes it work for me is the feeling that it is doomed one way or another..

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    117. Adam,

      I agree with most of the sentiments and analysis. While Daenerys may be surprised, I doubt she will be shocked. She must suspect Jon of having some Targ blood or she would not have encouraged him to ride Rhaegal (at least assuming book cannon that has not been fully explored in the show). I would think that her finding out that she is not the last Targaryen will be a huge comfort to her.

      And I don’t necessarily think that having them both survive and ruling together is necessarily inconsistent with a bittersweet ending. Indeed, AeJon may accept his heritage as both a Targaryen and a Stark in order to unite the realm, and to give their child a father. At the same time, his feelings for Daenerys may fade because of his inability to accept their own relationship from a romantic perspective. Ruling together for duty and not for love could very much fit the bill for a bittersweet ending — all victories have a cost, and the seven kingdoms have been wrecked but saved but not for Jon and Daenerys.

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    118. kevin1989: Bullshit comparison. What Sam meant was that Jon bow to Dany to keep the north safe from the WW. And Sam asked if Dany would do the same so that the mistrust in the north will fade away everybody can come together under Jon and they can fight along side to defeat the WW and the country can heal after that.

      Yeah, but the audience knows Dany agreed to help so why was it necessary? And “Everyone coming together” makes no sense either because it caused more discord and anxiety!

      I think it has to do with Tormund’s take on Mance. Mance and Dany have enormous pride, they will never yield their title. Mance couldn’t bend the knee to the NW and led the wildlings to their deaths. I don’t think it was about showing thanks to Dany or trying to unite everyone, I think he knew Dany would always view his lack of submission as a threat and he’s afraid of what she’ll do to his people if he never bends the knee. It comes back to Torrhen/Aegon which is who Dany mentions in their first scene together to get him to bend the knee, “to save his people’s lives.” Like… that’s such a huge threat it probably never left his mind.

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    119. Ten Bears,

      The more I think of it, the more I grow to believe that Sansa’s rudeness has been a rather conscious political game and, although I would be happy to write it off as bad politics, the evidences we get in the show (and in real life) suggest the reverse – at least in a some cases.

      Let’s give it an unprejudiced look. Basicly, it’s the same game Cersei plays with Euron in the very same episode: “If you want me, earn me.” It’s not a fair game: Cersei has no intent to pay, she just raises the stakes planning to turn the table on Euron at the first opportunity. This is a risky game and Cerei may very well end on the losing side, cause Euron is also planning to turn the table on her. However, when Cersei plaid the same game with more generous men, like Jaime, Tyrion, or even Robert, she was unbeatable. She was continuously intimidating them, simultaneously teasing with a promise of reward/recognition, if they improve, and they were swallowing that hook, line and sinker feeling guilty, thinking how they could earn Cersei’s love, etc. As a result, Cersei used to get what she wanted again and again.

      Now, if we look at Sansa, she plays the same game with Jon: she calls him a family and then a fool and then a family again and then a fool again. I’m not sure whether she does that consciuosly, but a certain degree of awareness might be present. She also tried to play this game with Littlefinger and in her own imagination she emerged vistorious, although it was much more complicated than that. So, now Sansa resumes the same game with Jon and tries it on Tyrion who falls into the trap immediately. And she tries it on Dany, too. Let’s keep in mind that Bran told Sansa about the fall of the Wall and the wightyfied dragon, which implies that he also briefed her about the circumstances in which that dragon was lost. In other words, Sansa should be perfectly aware that Dany saved Jon. But instead of showing gratitude for saving her big brother or bringing two armies on the eve of the battle, she goes into full whining mode just like Cersei after Jaime’s return from captivity. Once again, generous people, especially men, tend to swallow that hook, line and sinker: whining buthurts tend to get more attention, compassion and benefits, whereas stoic sufferers tend to be overlooked. However, Dany is not a man:) and she retaliates not only by threatening Sansa, but also by giving Jon a dragon. However, there’s still a good chance that Jon will continue to seek Sansa’s approval, instead of giving her a propper lash for not encountin potential allies when preparing supplies and forgetting about all the rules of hospitality: for the moment, Jon hooked exactly like Jaime in Season 4-7. But when it comes to Sansa’s intentions, things get even more murky: after all, Arya may be right and Sansa may be raising the stakes just to protect her family and put Jon into a better position – after all, the result is that Jon gets a dragon:) So, hating Sansa might be rushed, too, and we have to reserve our final judgements till the end of Ep 806.

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    120. Enharmony1625: The thing I love about Arya/Gendry and Jamie/Brienne is that their relationships didn’t start out as a romance. They built up from friendship, respect, and trust. There is such substance to them.

      I don’t know how to put it exactly, but there is also an element of unlikeliness to overcome in each one. That is, for Arya/Gendry, Arya doesn’t seem like the kind of person who would be interested in being with someone because she is so independent and free-spirited, but in Gendry she has found someone who accepts her for who she is. And Arya isn’t the typical kind of “lady” that Gendry would be used to meeting.

      For Jaime, Brienne isn’t the traditionally beautiful woman you would expect him to be with. But more importantly, Brienne represents the kind of person he wishes he could be, or wants to be. There is such a pureness to her that brings out the goodness in Jaime that makes this relationship so good, deep, and layered.

      Then there’s of course the chemistry between Maisie and Joe, and Nic and Gwen that just oozes off the screen. I can’t help but grin like a lovestruck dolt when Arya/Gendry and Jaime/Brienne are on screen.

      That being said, I don’t mind Jon & Dany. It doesn’t feel near as substantive as the aforementioned relationships, but I think what makes it work for me is the feeling that it is doomed one way or another..

      There is a lot of internet chatter because apparently Episode 2 is released. I actually think is a release not a leak.

      Jaime is a boss! A real OG! I could not love this character more….

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    121. While this could perhaps not be as terrible a reality for Dany, it will certainly not be an easy thing for Jon personally.

      THANK YOU, JOE!

      I’ve read so many (sooooo many) posts in the last 2 yrs saying that the sister/ nephew relationships is normal per Targaryen history and that Jon and Dany should have no problems with that that it curled my hair! And mine has always been wavy to begin with.

      I’m not sure how anyone could have missed the fact that Jon may be a Targ by blood but he was raised in a different environment completely. It’s not normal for him to marry or bang his aunt (no matter what that the crazy Vale nut job said about Sansa possibly marrying her cousin). It’s not normal. And everyone in the 7 kingdoms bar Dorne balked at Cersei sleeping with her brother anyway. It wasn’t JUST that she cheated on Robert. It was the incestual relationship as well. Cersei keeps telling everyone that Targaryens have done it for centuries but no one seems to give her a break on that.

      And Jon is still NOT a Targaryen in his head. And who knows if he’ll ever be?! I have a weird suspicion that he’ll remain a Ned Stark for the rest of his life which may not be that long. It’s the only father he’s even known, the only person who he truly looked up to and wanted to emulate. And he proved it over and over and over again. That stuff will never disappear.

      That being said, I’m super curious to see him finally understanding the implication of what this reveal means for his love life. I think he’s original reaction was mostly linked to the IT. But it will go much deeper obviously.

      Or, he could just do the thing about “there’s no time for all that” stuff and go down in flames in the Great War without ever solving this burning problem. That would probably be what Martin will do and leave everyone with a huge cliffhanger that will never be resolved. Because it’s fitting.

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    122. kevin1989,

      It’s a tricky thing with showing kindness. Dany showed kindness to Mirri maz Duur – look how it worked. Jon showed kindness to Lord Glover – look how it worked. Brienne showed kindness to some commoner who noticed her and Jaime on the road – lool how that worked, etc. In general, althoug some and even many people deserve kindness, there’re plenty of those who abuse it; therefore, showing kindness is always a risk, which is disturbing thought. But disturbing thoughts are why we watch GOT:)

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    123. Thanks for the article, JoeMagician! I too think their romantic relationship is doomed and I’m not even sure both will make it to the end alive. I tend to compare Lyanna & Rhaegar to Romeo + Juliet simply because the dynamics are different with Jon and Dany as they are both in positions of power. Rhaegar & Lyanna had families to answer to and while Jon does indeed have that, he’s still the family’s leader (which could be argued because of Sansa’s role). I still tend to think about Jaime’s POV where he recalled his last conversation with Rhaegar about something that should have been done long ago. I do think that Iron Throne will be destroyed but perhaps Jon and/or Dany will carry out what should have been done: enacting the Great Council and vote in the next monarch or leader. Even further, perhaps they’ll extend voting rights to towns and villages so that all can participate. 🤷‍♀️

      Also one of my tinfoil theories is that Dany is actually a Blackfyre (a Targ bastard) so in that reality perhaps Jon & Dany would be distant enough to marry lol

      Boojam,
      Poor Silver died way back in S2 travelling across the Red Waste.

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    124. Jon and Daenerys are two magic characters focused on the AOTD. Jon role was to bring Daenerys and the dragons to their true purpose in the story. They are the main equipment in the fight. The human heroes will fight and play heroic roles as well but once a magic monster was introduced, there had to be a magic mechanism to help the locals survive.

      After that, the magic characters are done. I am not sure they have a role in the future of Westeros.

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    125. Tar,

      Ha! Now wouldn’t that be a trip. And perhaps he’d be like Claudius – acting the fool, but hiding a tremendous individual (nah probably not)

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    126. Mango,

      Mango when I said that the babe would sit on the throne, I was assuming lots of adult help! So depending on the people in charg, it could be a good thing, or no. But we have seen what happens in these situations; problematic to be sure

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    127. Yes, I think they’re doomed. A wise man once said: “general rule of thumbs”. No main character ever had a happy love story, or it ended with a bloodshed. This guy doesn’t believe in love.

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    128. Enharmony1625,

      “The thing I love about Arya/Gendry and Jamie/Brienne is that their relationships didn’t start out as a romance. They built up from friendship, respect, and trust. There is such substance to them.”
      _______
      In my view, it’s all about the word play; the back and forth banter getting to know each other, trust each other, and have their own inside jokes and shorthand expressions; a personal history and rapport that’s unique to them. That takes time to build up.

      Once those have been set up, just a few innocuous words or glances can have so much more subtext. [Example: Brienne offering to give back Oathkeeper to “Ser Jaime”, who declines, telling her something like “it’s yours. It will always be yours.”]

      The reason why Arya’s S8e1 encounter with Gendry – which lasted maybe 1-2 minutes – was so charming was because of the set up of the language in S2 – and how their dynamic has changed since then. Back then Arya was a feisty little androgynous tomboy, and Gendry had a laugh at her expense because she was technically a “lady” but didn’t like him to address her as “my lady.” That word play in the S2 scene (first clip below) made the S8e1 turnabout of Gendry crushing on a grown up, whip smart, attractive young woman so special, in part by using a variation of that word play. (I loved that megawatt smile on her face when he said “as my lady wishes”, and her half-spin and smile back at him on her way out. Quite a difference from the way their S2 scene concluded.)

      It was the “verbal history” between them that added so much vibrancy to the recent scene. Whether because of pacing or time constraints, Dany & Jon didn’t have that connection. Sure, we can assume physical attraction and mutual admiration – but there was no “word play” to set up their romance.

      S2e? Arya & Gendry

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65X57xb8OUo

      S8e1 Arya & Gendry, at 1:18 – end

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sur2q0zVctA

      Of course, it can’t be overlooked that the acting of Gwendolyn Christie & NCW, and Maisie Williams and Joe Dempsie, played a large part in establishing the emotional substance of their interactions. (I am NOT bashing Kit H. or Emilia C. , and I’m aware the “romance” of Jon & Dany was compressed into two or three episodes in S7. I just didn’t see the same personal connection.)

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    129. Boojam: That’s right but she had a new white horse in season 6 which seems to have vanished.

      They sent it to the glue factory to make the bindings for the books in the new WF library.

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    130. MMJ,

      Depends if Dany give up her titles and crown and give it to Jon. That will ease the distress in the north. The north will probably never follow Dany, same as Sam. The sisters and Bran looks like they want Jon there especially Bran how he is orchestrating everything.

      The problems that arise with Jon being king instead of dany being queen is:
      – Will the dotkraki and unsullied follow him? I think its a given that the unsullied will follow Jon because they trust Dany’s judgement, if dany bow they bow. But the dotkraki only follow strength, do they see Jon as a strong leader with strength?

      And Jon has the story that he always tell the truth, people trust him. Even Cersei stated that she can trust the son of Ned Stark.

      Inga,

      With lord Glover I agree half. But as it is made clear, if Jon never bowed to Dany, Lord Glover wouldn’t have go back to deepwood motte.

      As for Mirri Maaz Duur, I never see her as a villain. Her friends and family were brutally raped murdered and made slaves. Under the leadership of Drogo, his ways were evil and something Dany fought later. And I still can’t understand that Dany didn’t saw it that way, she felt justice for killing Miri but she couldn’t see that Miri got justice for her friends and family.

      Jack Bauer 24,

      I wonder which Idiots work on the streamingsites that broadcast GoT. How could you mistake such a thing? 2 weeks in a row.

      Those people should be fired and should never work in this field again.

      Or is HBO doing this on purpose, which I think would be stupid thing to do.

      Please can somebody please leak the written pages of Winds of winter. Much thanks already. 🙂

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    131. JoeMagician: That’s always the rub! Are they setting up massive amounts of tensions and problems to subvert it and have them triumph? Or just following through on what they’ve set up. I’d expect because it is the show, they’re not going for a total subversion of their romance being doomed. They generally don’t have the time for something like that, but maybe a partial one. Their relationship doesn’t last and not because of the reasons they’ve already showed out. Not reason A, B, or C but D which they haven’t mentioned yet.

      Thinking about it, reason D could be that Dany can’t get pregnant. Everyone took all the talk of her womb last year as foreshadowing she was going to get pregnant, but perhaps it was just to reestablish that fact.

      Once she finds out Jon is the heir and a Targaryen, she pushes him to take the crown and marry someone else so that their house can continue.

      Dany helps restablish House Targaryen but its not for her. Jon becomes King out of duty but he has to give up the woman he loves. In effect, they both choose duty over love.

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    132. In case anyone is interested in StarTalk, Neil DeGrasse Tyson interviews GRRM for the National Geographic Channel. Unfortunately, the video looks like it is only available in the U.S. so I can’t watch it. Hoping Tyson uploads it to his podcast which I subscribe to. But for those that can enjoy it, here’s the link:

      https://www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/watch/d23e2044d61a7b02aea0a51caef674d1/

      Also Newsweek does write about a mild spoiler for TWoW from the interview.

      https://www.newsweek.com/winds-winter-george-rr-martin-unicorn-skagos-davos-seaworth-rickon-stark-1401384

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    133. kevin1989,

      I don’t see Mirri Maaz Duur as a villain, either. I’m just making the point that kindness may not pay off. For different reasons: some may be harbouring resentment for things you are overlooking, some may be selfish or stupid or whatever. We don’t know how the things would played out had Dany spared the Tarlies – Sam would still have his father and brother, but other problems might have occurred. Jon’s kindness brought plenty of those, too, though Lord Glover is more like a minor nuisance. And we can agree to disagree about his motivations: we may never find the truth. It’s just that deeds speak more than words, and words shouldn’t be taken for granted. Lord Glover was given a second chance, but he’s not getting the third one – not from me;)

        Quote  Reply

    134. Vinga,

      “Also, I think what a lot of people are missing is that she’s finally found family. After all, “a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing”. And ultimately that’s gonna be the most important thing, or at least that’s what I think.”

      _______
      I’d like that a lot, and it does make logical sense within the story.
      All along, Dany’s been yearning for “home” – she never really had one because she’d been on the run in exile, as a serial houseguest of strangers, ever since she was born.
      She’s never really had a family either. She was orphaned the night she was born when her mother died in childbirth. Though I’m not sure of the exact chronology, her father, her brother Rhaegar, her sister in law Elia, and her niece and nephew were all killed at around the same time. She was left with nobody except a dips*it brother with delusions of entitlement, who considered her his personal property and essentially pimped her out in exchange for (what he thought) would be a Dothraki army to help him retake “his” throne.

      Ironically, Jon/Aegon was orphaned too, but despite his bitterness about being labeled a “bastard”, he grew up in relative comfort and security in a large castle with a loving father, a caring uncle, and five brothers and sisters – including, of course, a little sister who absolutely adored him.

      Almost by default, Dany assumed her destiny as “the last Targaryen” was to restore the Targaryen monarchy from the “usurpers.”

      If, as you’ve suggested, she exercises a little circumspection, she’ll realize she is now with a family of good, decent people who’d welcome her into the family (once everybody gets past their prejudices and suspicions, and the real truth of the Stark-Targaryen friction is revealed, e.g., the ugly “rape and kidnap” story is debunked.)

      Yes, “a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.” She’s experienced that first hand.
      It sucks growing up without a mother and father, or at least someone to serve as a surrogate. In some ways, without knowing kindness she’s not always been equipped to show kindness.

      Assuming she survives the zombie apocalypse, all that could change if she comes to realize that being part of a “pack” with her nephew and cousins (?) would be a more rewarding and fulfilling existence than a lonely life of wearing a crown and sitting on a throne.

      That’s why I’m hoping that Bran’s words to an unidentified person telling him or her [something like] “everything you’ve been through has brought you here, where you belong – home”, are directed to Dany.

      I know this all sounds so corny and “unGRRM.” Still, with all the vilification Dany’s now facing from people she’s actually trying to save, perhaps her life goals would be better achieved as a member of a family rather than on her own.

      Best of all… she could be Aunt Dany to ASNAWP!!!! That’d be ten times better than sitting on that stupid iron chair.

        Quote  Reply

    135. kevin1989,

      “With lord Glover I agree half. But as it is made clear, if Jon never bowed to Dany, Lord Glover wouldn’t have go back to deepwood motte.”

      __________
      Lord Glover would’ve gone back to Deepwood Motte if he had a hangnail.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Jack Bauer 24,

      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Last week it is HBO Go, this week it is Amazon. Next week, another platform will do it.’

      I am thinking it is not accidental. Always a few hours ahead on the same day. Last year full scale leaks did not harm the viewership – so maybe some-one at HBO decided why not let some episode news circulate a few hours beforehand to the hard release. Either way, HBO will be fine. I am not in the business so I have no idea if this makes sense or not. But Two weeks on two big platforms does not seem accidental.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Well. This is going to be the best episode ever. And then I don’t know if I can handle the next 4, when it all goes to hell. 😆

        Quote  Reply

    138. Mango:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Tyrion Pimpslap,

      Last week it is HBO Go, this week it is Amazon. Next week, another platform will do it.’

      I am thinking it is not accidental. Always a few hours ahead on the same day. Last year full scale leaks did not harm the viewership – so maybe some-one at HBO decided why not let some episode news circulate a few hours beforehand to the hard release.Either way, HBO will be fine. I am not in the business so I have no idea if this makes sense or not. But Two weeks on two big platforms does not seem accidental.

      It was DirectTV Now last week. It’s ironic that HBO is holding episode titles because of spoilers, so instead the entire episodes leak instead.

      Since next week is the big episode and likely to have major deaths, i really hope that doesn’t leak early. I’m not optimistic.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Jack Bauer 24,

      They may not let it go early – to keep the impact in one go. I do not think these are mistakes – more like soft releases. But I am just speculating – I have no idea really.

      I am sure some-one on this site said that DirectTv is owned by the same folks as HBO.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Ten Bears,

      Yep. Completely agree. It all goes back to the foundation of their relationship, which makes it feel so satisfying and organic when they reunite.

      Arya’s smile when Gendry says “As you wish, my lady”… I forget who said this (heck, maybe it was you), but who wouldn’t just instantly melt seeing that smile! I’m very interested to see how this develops, because they’re clearly using Gendry as a way to bring back the old Arya.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Sean C.:
      Mango,

      I wouldn’t say it’s about the “queenly mask”.She doesn’t know Sam at all, and is giving him what is obviously upsetting news that he will not be well-disposed toward her for.It’s extremely awkward, and I think trying to comfort him would be totally out of place; why would he want comfort from her in such circumstances?

      John Bradley tells us that Sam believes Dany’s stoic and completely disconnected relating of his father and brother’s deaths were psychopathic. I don’t believe we as an audience felt that way, and I’m unsure if we were supposed to feel a tiny bit that way or not. We don’t know enough to know.

      Sam is clearly biased when it comes to his family, but Sam has never been delusional and unreasonable before, even in the face of great adversity. So I don’t think it is crazy to at least wonder if that was the way we were supposed to be reading that particular scene. Hopefully we’ll get more clarity very soon!

        Quote  Reply

    142. Ten Bears:
      _______In my view, it’s all about the word play; the back and forth banter getting to know each other, trust each other, and have their own inside jokes and shorthand expressions; a personal history and rapport that’s unique to them. That takes time to build up.

      Or you could pull a Tormond and have a budding romance with a single, hilarious look while gnawing meat from a bone. The whole world started shipping them with just that wee little push.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Ten Bears:
      Vinga,

      “Also, I think what a lot of people are missing is that she’s finally found family. After all, “a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing”. And ultimately that’s gonna be the most important thing, or at least that’s what I think.”

      _______ I’d like that a lot, and it does make logical sense within the story.All along, Dany’s been yearning for “home” – she never really had one because she’d been on the run in exile, as a serial houseguest of strangers, ever since she was born.She’s never really had a family either. She was orphaned the night she was born when her mother died in childbirth. Though I’m not sure of the exact chronology, her father, her brother Rhaegar, her sister in law Elia, and her niece and nephew were all killed at around the same time. She was left with nobody except a dips*it brother with delusions of entitlement, who considered her his personal property and essentially pimped her out in exchange for (what he thought) would be a Dothraki army to help him retake “his” throne.

      Ironically, Jon/Aegon was orphaned too, but despite his bitterness about being labeled a “bastard”, he grew up in relative comfort and security in a large castle with a loving father, a caring uncle, and five brothers and sisters – including, of course, a little sister who absolutely adored him.

      Almost by default, Dany assumed her destiny as “the last Targaryen” was to restore the Targaryen monarchy from the “usurpers.”

      If, as you’ve suggested, she exercises a little circumspection, she’ll realize she is now with a family of good, decent people who’d welcome her into the family (once everybody gets past their prejudices and suspicions, and the real truth of the Stark-Targaryen friction is revealed, e.g., the ugly “rape and kidnap” story is debunked.)

      Yes, “a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.” She’s experienced that first hand.
      It sucks growing up without a mother and father, or at least someone to serve as a surrogate. In some ways, without knowing kindness she’s not always been equipped to show kindness.

      Assuming she survives the zombie apocalypse, all that could change if she comes to realize that being part of a “pack” with her nephew and cousins (?) would be a more rewarding and fulfilling existence than a lonely life of wearing a crown and sitting on a throne.

      That’s why I’m hoping that Bran’s words to an unidentified person telling him or her [something like] “everything you’ve been through has brought you here, where you belong – home”, are directed to Dany.

      I know this all sounds so corny and “unGRRM.” Still, with all the vilification Dany’s now facing from people she’s actually trying to save, perhaps her life goals would be better achieved as a member of a family rather than on her own.

      Best of all… she could be Aunt Dany to ASNAWP!!!! That’d be ten times better than sitting on that stupid iron chair.

      Exactly! Agreed with everything you said. We as audience have been so focused on “who sits on the Iron Throne in the end”.. but what if no one does. This reminds me of that Cersei scene from EP1.. alone in that empty, silent, cold throne room. I don’t want that fate for Dany and I think neither does she for herself.

        Quote  Reply

    144. In short the answer is no. I’ve only got around to reading this excellent piece after watching episode two but the show runners seem to be hitting us over the head that the relationship won’t last and tension is coming, again even from the preview of next week we have Dany speaking angrily towards Jon about the dead already being here. Unless there is a reconciliation in episode 4 this one is doomed.

        Quote  Reply

    145. asextor:
      hi guys .
      i know it’s not related to this post but Does anyone know where all the dothraki are right now ?
      cause i have seen the first episode of this season over and over and all i could find was 20-30 of them during their march and just some tents outside of winterfell that looked like Dothraki’s tent.

      I was wondering this, must surely be a few hundred of them somewhere, apparently they will lead the attack against the AotD so unlikely they make it through the next episode anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Boojam: Boojam

      If you go back and watch the first couple of seasons you will notice a few things disappear such as the sisters who tend to the wounded/dead, not been seen since S3.

        Quote  Reply

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