Iron Islands plot to be omitted from Game of Thrones season 5

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Filming of various locations for Game of Thrones season 5 has been well-documented so far, giving us insight into King’s Landing, Meereen, Dorne and beyond. However, we now have clarification on the exclusion of one particular area/plotline: the Iron Islands.

According to Entertainment Weekly, the Iron Islands subplot as realised in A Feast for Crows will be omitted from season 5.

While the Dorne-based subplot will be in season five, producers have previously indicated the Iron Islands subplot has been omitted.

Future plot spoilers below the cut.

James Hibberd goes on to say that he

… asked the producers last season if they were doing Dorne and Iron Islands in season 5. They said they were doing one of them. Later they announced they were doing Dorne.

This suggests that of the two, the producers in fact chose to portray Dorne instead of the Iron Islands in the fifth season. Of course, this holds no confirmation for the future of the isles; we may well see them and their corresponding characters in season 6 and beyond.

For now, however, we can rest assured that there will be no Kingsmoot plot in the upcoming season – which also bodes ill for the Greyjoy brothers. On the other hand, whether we will see Yara post-Dreadfort escape, or even Balon’s delayed death, are still up for discussion.

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In other news, new screenwriter Dave Hill continues to mete out official glimpses into the production of season 5. Today, he offered us our best view yet of the show’s iteration of the Shy Maid, upon which Tyrion and Jorah will no doubt become well acquainted.

785 responses

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    1. Damn, I’ll miss the Crow’s Eye. Here’s hoping for Season 6, (I think Tywin’s using the example of a house with great wealth and fertile land asking for protection from a house with a powerful navy was foreshadowing,) and we will still in all likelihood get Balon’s death in Season 5.

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    2. It’s funny that the Iron Islands bit was THE ONLY piece of legit info in that Hibberd article.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if we see Pyke at least once though and see Yara get sent back to Deepwood Motte.

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    3. No surprise at all, but nice to have some official confirmation!

      I would think this means they are cut from the series not just the season, right? If the Greyjoys do get some screen time next year I would think it would have to be extremely cut back from their role in the books…. Would they introduce important players in the second to last season? It does not feel right to me, but who knows….

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    4. Seeing as that article also states that Bran Stark will definitely not be in season 5, I’m not sure if i would trust the source. Isaac Hempstead-Wright himself confirmed he would be in season 5.

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    5. I think it’s the news Dorne was chosen instead of the Iron Islands which really grates on me. Disliked Dorne in the books, dislike the direction they’re going with it in the show and now I’m going to be constantly thinking “they dropped the Iron Islands for this?”. Jaime and Bronn are going to have to nail it nob on to make it watchable for me.

      Season 6 Greyjoys? I can but hope.

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    6. We pretty much knew this already. The Iron Islands plotline itself is gone, but Euron as a character will still be in (in season 6). He’s too juicy of a villain for them to pass up.

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    7. Just a thought, but it occurs to me that maybe D&D wanted to save the Greyjoy’s for Season 6, because they needed some big political/military issue for that particular season. After all they ain’t doing fAegon, and while Dany might start traveling to Westeros in Season 6 she wouldn’t get there right away, so there has to be *something* south of the Wall that’s helping to continue the state of chaos in Westeros as well as drive events in KL. That way if/when Dany gets to Westeros she and her dragons might be the only things that can take down Euron.

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    8. I wouldnt pay too much attention to it, the article also suggests that Bran wont be in Season 5 when he even Isaac has noted to the contrary. The writer is just reporting assumptions based on previous reports.

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    9. For those not convinced Hibberd clarified in the comments:

      Fair question. I asked the producers last season if they were doing Dorne and Iron Islands in season 5. They said they were doing one of them. Later they announced they were doing Dorne. Those tracking the castings have already pieced this together as they would have needed to cast a few more roles if they wanted to delve into that world, like they did with Dorne. From a storytelling standpoint it makes sense — Martin had to split the characters into two books to fit in the Dorne and Iron Islands subplots, but a TV show has to use or lose its actors (benching Bran is hard enough!). I’m not saying S5 won’t have any Iron Islands scenes, only that my understand is the big book 4 subplot isn’t a part of S5.

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    10. show watchers only don’t care at all about the Greyjoys (same for Bran and Stannis) that’s probably the reason why they omitted them 🙁

      My friend hates Stannis and Theon, he’s going to love Season 5 😉
      His favorite characters are Tyrion, Jon and Arya (OBVIOUSLY)

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    11. dizzy,

      That’s your opinion. I think Dorne was more HBO friendly (but after hearing about all the changes they’re making to Dorne, I’m a bit worried).

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    12. The silliest thing that’s driving me bonkers is that the third leech isn’t being addressed. If they just tie up that one thread this season I’ll be happy… and they need to do a short reintroduction of the group in season 6….

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    13. Sensible decision. There are enough plotlines as i is and the show really is at breaking point with regards to that. I can only presume that Dorne will play a bigger part in the end game, so they chose it instead (which would make sense, but until George pulls his finger out we won’t know for sure). Oberyn’s populaity compared to the current Iron Islands characters probably contributed to this, but it also might be because

      Trystane=Aegon in show canon

      Despite this, I hope we see both Yara and Balon in Season 5. Something decent needs to happen to both this season.

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    14. Darquemode:
      No surprise at all, but nice to have some official confirmation!

      I would think this means they are cut from the series not just the season, right? If the Greyjoys do get some screen time next year I would think it would have to be extremely cut back from their role in the books…. Would they introduce important players in the second to last season? It does not feel right to me, but who knows….

      I tend to agree. It would be odd to bring in Euron and position him as a major threat so late in the story. Perhaps he will be introduced in a more benign way.

      I figure we still have to see Balon and Yara this season.

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    15. After what they did with Yara last season, I’m glad they aren’t touching the rest of the ironborn. They are just Stannis-and-dragon fodder anyway, sadly.

      But no Balon in S5? Odd.

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    16. NOOOOOOO!!! Why did they even bother setting up the Greyjoys as a faction in the show claining a crown and having a military force if they then do nothing. Not to mention the leeches. They have set up a huge hole in the plot and they’re just leaving it hanging. Like them or not, they were a credible threat in season 2 and now this will be the third season in a row where they don’t do anything. Sure Yara and Theon have had stuff, but the actual Greyjoy forces and king have done nothing. It needs to be resolved somehow and soon, not just forgotten about. Even if they change it completely from the book they need to tie up the loose threads.

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    17. You know what, seeing how crowded season 5 is going to be I was hoping that they leave out the Iron Islands story for season 6 where hopefully they will have enough time to tell it in its full glory. Now in the case that they have cut out the Iron Islands story from the show completely… we riot there is no way around that.

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    18. OtherAndrew:
      For those not convinced Hibberd clarified in the comments:

      That does not mean that the Iron Islands are cut from the show, as some fans have interpreted this (which makes no sense – they’re already in the show, they can’t abandon the storyline from now on), just that they’re not a part of season 5, which was pretty obvious from the casting and filming news anyway.

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    19. Honestly, there are some stotylines we know of:

      – Arya in Bravos
      – The Wall
      – Extended Dorne with Jamie and Bronn
      – King’s Landing with the sparrows, Cersei’s Fall, and a little Loras trouble
      – Tyrion’s Journey, probably Pentos
      – Dany in Mereen
      – a little Bran, a little Sansa, a little littlefinger…

      Assuming that we still get some Yara and some Varys it seems to be already pretty packed in Season 5… Placing The iron Islands’ Plot somewhere would generate some confusion for non-readers… and I guess Even for readers it would bot be comfortable to watch The show hopping around wildly.

      However, I am worried, that they are cutting all connections to Dany that are buildt up in ADWD: Vic, Young Griff, Quentyn… Will they have Dany going to Westeros just directly?

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    20. Can I just say for the record that I think Isaac Hempstead Wright is, if not lying, giving deliberately misleading answers to the Bran question? James Hibberd and EW have posted two articles now that definitively say Bran won’t be in Season 5, and he’s standing by his story.

      Let’s also remember that Hibberd posted a “No Lady Stoneheart is actually a good thing” op-Ed piece the second the Season 4 finale ended. The very definition of positive spin. He gets the exclusive casting news from time to time, and clearly carries Benioff & Weiss’s water in a major way. I’m inclined to think he has well-placed Deep Throats in the production to tell him if he’s off-base.

      So yeah. I don’t think there will be any Bran at all next year, and for whatever reason Isaac has adopted the Christopher Nolan/JJ Abrams approach of misleading the press.

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    21. Lol bye Felicia.

      Saw this coming a mile away; the Iron Islands just haven’t been developed in the show at all. For god’s sake we still haven’t even seen Balon’s banana peel-slip and I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t. Everything about Pyke introduced in S2 was to further Theon’s story, and his story is nowhere near Pyke now.

      And let’s all be perfectly honest here.. aside from Euron, no other solid or even interesting character has came out of that gray, wet hell hole. Aeron, Victarion and even Asha are as replaceable as Belwas’ left nut.
      I think Darkstar had more of an impact on the story. Wrap your noggins around that one.

      Turncloak,

      What do you mean.. “have to turn”?

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    22. Turncloak,

      I’ve always thought that this would be great for the TV adaptation (regardless of whether it actually happens in book cannon). However, from the last couple months of news, it seems like Michiel has been present for Meereen filming both for early and late season episodes, so it isn’t looking good imo.

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    23. This is shaping up to be the first season I’m really having doubts about.
      Euron, Manderly and “The Griffs” were characters I was really looking forward to seeing. Euron if he appears won’t be until next season, Manderly we would have heard of by now I think, and likewise The Griffs. And all to fit in some extra Dorne? Apart from Doran being the only genuine “good” lord since poor old Ned, it struggled to hold my interest. Well, apart from Darkstar, and he didn’t hold my interest for the reasons the author intended! Is it being focused on because of all the (in my opinion spurious) complaints about the lack of “diversity”?

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    24. It was very helpful that Hibberd responded to the comment I left about the basis for his saying the Iron Islands storyline isn’t in this season, though I asked if he could confirm if he has any more information confirming Bran’s absence apart from the Nairn interview cited in the post, to which he hasn’t said anything. But he seems quite certain on that latter point.

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    25. The way I see it there are a few ways the show could have handled this differently.

      1) Never bother with the Greyjoys in the first place. Probably wouldn’t work in hindsight because then Theon would never claim Winterfell and Bran would never leave.

      2) Have Balon die as in the books, but then not introduce the uncles and get Yara to bow to either Stannis or the Lannisters. Puts us basically where we already are now but with a sense of resolution to the storyline. Kinda like when Renly died, his forces didn’t carry on without him. If they do need to cut the Greyjoys for time or because they are largely irrelevant in the end then this is heaps better than leaving it unresolved.

      3) Do the kingsmoot back in season 4 when there weren’t that many new storylines yet, when the Greyjoys hadn’t been doing nothing for too long and when the storyline actually takes place chronologically within the books.

      Essentially don’t start a storyline and then ignore it with no progression or conclusion.

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    26. Andrew:
      Can I just say for the record that I think Isaac Hempstead Wright is, if not lying, giving deliberately misleading answers to the Bran question?James Hibberd and EW have posted two articles now that definitively say Bran won’t be in Season 5, and he’s standing by his story.

      Let’s also remember that Hibberd posted a “No Lady Stoneheart is actually a good thing” op-Ed piece the second the Season 4 finale ended. The very definition of positive spin. He gets the exclusive casting news from time to time, and clearly carries Benioff & Weiss’s water in a major way.I’m inclined to think he has well-placed Deep Throats in the production to tell him if he’s off-base.

      So yeah. I don’t think there will be any Bran at all next year, and for whatever reason Isaac has adopted the Christopher Nolan/JJ Abrams approach of misleading the press.

      Hibbard hasn’t provided any evidence that Bran won’t be in season 5, other than Nairn’s interview, and from his comments, it seems that Nairn’s interview is all that he’s basing his conclusion on.

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    27. TheTouchOfFrost,

      What D&D said is “we’re doing one”, not “we can only do one” or “we chose to do one instead of the other”.

      Honestly, I’m sorry that you hate Dorne so much but you need to stop acting as if it’s an unquestioned fact that Dorne is boring and the Iron Islands would have been better. That’s only an opinion. And in terms of the direction they’re taking it in the show (though admittedly, I agree that they are completely destroying what was in the book and building anew- and the new may well be terrible, it certainly isn’t looking to be amazing from the news we have so far in my opinion), who’s to say they wouldn’t have made changes to the Iron Islands arc as well? They would have made changes. A lot of them. The Kingsmoot might not have happened, just as thye Queenmaker plot won’t, Aeron and Victarion might have been cut just like Arianne and Quentyn, and for all we know Jaime and Bronn could have taken a trip to Pyke.

      Basically, suck it up already. It’s happening. It’s been all but confirmed for a long, long time now. Same goes for the Griffs. Season 6 might allow a couple of new major castings, and I hope we get a Euron then. Otherwise, see ya Iron Islands.

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    28. Of the Night:
      The way I see it there are a few ways the show could have handled this differently.

      1) Never bother with the Greyjoys in the first place. Probably wouldn’t work in hindsight because then Theon would never claim Winterfell and Bran would never leave.

      2) Have Balon die as in the books, but then not introduce the uncles and get Yara to bow to either Stannis or the Lannisters. Puts us basically where we already are now but with a sense of resolution to the storyline. Kinda like when Renly died, his forces didn’t carry on without him. If they do need to cut the Greyjoys for time or because they are largely irrelevant in the end then this is heaps better than leaving it unresolved.

      3) Do the kingsmoot back in season 4 when there weren’t that many new storylines yet, when the Greyjoys hadn’t been doing nothing for too long and when the storyline actually takes place chronologically within the books.

      Essentially don’t start a storyline and then ignore it with no progression or conclusion.

      4) Save Balon’s death and the introduction of Euron and possibly some other characters for season 6, when they wouldn’t have to introduce so many new characters.

      … which is probably exactly what they’re doing

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    29. Ed,

      I agree with this. My suspicion is that Euron has too big a role to play to cut him entirely. My theory is that he is going to get control of at least one of Rhaegal or Viseryion. Now, if he sticks around in Meereen to try and join forces with Dany or if he high tails it to Westeros with his new dragon(s) to wreak havoc, I’m not sure.

      I think it has to be assumed that Victarion is cut at this point. I can’t see them having a S6 story arc where he loses the Kingsmoot and makes his way to Meereen. It would just take too long. If they aren’t going to show that, then what point is there in having him in the show at all?

      One way they could pull this off is have Yara return to Pyke in S5 only to be told that Balon has died under suspicious circumstances and, while she was away, his brother Euron has claimed the Seastone Chair for himself and set sail (for Meereen). Then, he can show up at the beginning of S6 (maybe Episode 1 introduces him as he’s at sea on the Silence, goes through his back story and the legend of the dragon horn, etc.) and follows his TWOW arc from there.

      The prophecy (I think from Quaithe–could be in the House of the Undying) that warned Dany of all of the dangers she would face indicated that Euron would be the most dangerous of them all. He has got to make an appearance. Plus, he seems like a total badass that would be a great addition. I think Vic and Damphair are probably out, though.

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    30. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I find that extremely hard to believe, HB. Plus the writer says:

      I’m not saying S5 won’t have any Iron Islands scenes, only that my understand is the big book 4 subplot isn’t a part of S5.

      Technically Balon Greyjoy’s death is book 3 not 4, and he only refers to the big book 4 Ironborn plot. If they do put that off for a later season it will be a bad decision IMO. It won’t have the same impact, I think since the three leaches should come one season after another at least! They won’t make a liar out of Mel, would they?! LOL

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    31. Annara Snow,

      I suppose a lot of the S6 theory comes down to what the ultimate end game for the Greyjoys is, which is difficult to predict. If the Ironborn are relevant for _____ down the road, then it’d make a lot of sense. If it turns out they aren’t all that important, I don’t see why D&D would try to add new major players in the penultimate season. We know they’re trying to start contracting the universe as we speed to the finish.

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    32. It will do my head in if they don’t at least address Balon and Yara in season 5. I cant stand bad continuity. Ignoring the third leech just comes across as amateurish.

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    33. Martin,

      You didn’t actually read the article here, did you? The author confirmed that D&D told him (which happens often; EW and Hibberd get quite a lot of GoT exlusives) that only one of the two new storylines (Dorne and the Iron Islands) would be in season 5. Then Dorne was announced. So yes, this is true.

      Also, none of this means Yara and Balon won’t be in Season 4. It just means that what’s generally refeered to as the Iron Islands plot is cut, that is: Euron declaring a Kingsmoot, Euron winning, the Shield Islands attack, Victarion going to Meereen, the Greyjoys raiding the Reach. Balon will have to die eventually and I assume Yara will have her latter ADWD material in the North adapted in some way this season. Just don’t expect any of Balon’s brothers, a Kingsmoot, an invasion of the Reach or a Greyjoy fleet at Meereen.

      And who knows, maybe we get a small version of the plot in season 6, maybe just with Euron. We’ll see.

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    34. Of the Night:
      NOOOOOOO!!! Why did they even bother setting up the Greyjoys as a faction in the show

      Exactly. Just like they bothered to include the Brotherhood and Beric in s3, and the fact that he was resurrected by the lord of light, setting up LS.
      The amount of good stuff that they have decided to cut from affc/adwd is simply astonishing. I just don’t understand the choice to focus so much on Dorne. In fact, I don’t understand the majority of their adaptation choices since halfway into season 4.
      I’ll be honest, I’m not looking forward to season 5. I’ll watch it, because i’m a big fan of the original story. But I feel like a lot of book readers that liked affc&adwd, myself included, will not be very happy next year when it airs.

      Oh and you can be sure you won’t get Balon’s death. In D&D’s mind, the average viewer probably doesn’t remember him anyway, or remember the fact that Stannis said the name of 3 kings when he tossed the leeches in the fire, and only two of them died. It’s ok though, instead we’ll get one extra scene of Jaime doing random funny stuff in Dorne. So much better.

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    35. CT Wahoo:

      One way they could pull this off is have Yara return to Pyke in S5 only to be told that Balon has died under suspicious circumstances and, while she was away, his brother Euron has claimed the Seastone Chair for himself and set sail (for Meereen).Then, he can show up at the beginning of S6 (maybe Episode 1 introduces him as he’s at sea on the Silence, goes through his back story and the legend of the dragon horn, etc.) and follows his TWOW arc from there.

      I could deal with this. If Balon’s already dead and we just didn’t see it on screen, that’s fine. But if he survives through to season 6 then it is way too late for the leech to take effect.

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    36. Greg,

      Yep. The moment they changed their minds from 8 seasons as a possibility to only 7 seasons, it was clear that some major cuts were coming. Now way in hell could D&D adapt the entirety of AFFC and ADWD, plus some TWOW stuff for Sansa and at the end of some of the other arcs, into one season. That would be closer to a season and a half of material. They’re better off cutting whole portions than cutting bits and pieces all around. At least the other arcs will be good by themselves, and not rushed.

      It really is a bummer that they can’t do 8 seasons, but 7 is all we get.

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    37. the other guy,

      Oh… so many assumptions in so few sentences. First, some storylines are storylines for their own sake, not just foreshadowing or setup. That’s a rather dry and mechanical way in which to view the story. People liked the Brotherhood without Banners and were none the wiser that it was setting up LSH, and if LSH is indeed cut they will still be. There’s not a problem with that at all. It served a function for the character of Arya, the Hound and for the worldbuilding of the show (resurrections, magic returning.)

      Also, you assume that all the cuts are “to focus so much on Dorne.” We don’t even know how much of Dorne we’ll see, so what are you even talking about? Also, how would you yourself plan the season? I don’t think you’ve actually thought this through. Many people obviously haven’t. D&D have.

      Please consider that at least most story lines must have a satisfying conclusion, a climax, an arc for the characters, so their stories must generally end with the climaxes of AFFC / ADWD; you can’t just cut them in half and stop there. It only worked for Season 3 because of the Red Wedding in the middle of ASOS; there’s nothing like that in AFFC or ADWD, and honestly, even the “S3 / S4” split of ASOS resulted in some characters suffering. Stannis, no doubt. Also, I love Arya and the Hound, and their character development was great, but in terms of plot they stretched out two chapters for a whole season.

      So, without a split that would cripple the story arcs of pretty much every character, you now have to arrive at the end of each of those storylines in one season… but you must have enough time with each character so that the story is emotionally satisfying. There has to be some character development. So what do you do, without magically time traveling and producing another 10 episodes? You do what you gotta do: focus on the characters we’ve already known for 4 years and cut what can be disposed of. You know why Jaime is in Dorne, partly? To justify the time the show will spend in Dorne.

      Also, the only other option is to literally follow the book structure: adapt AFFC in season 5 and then ADWD in season 6. But that’s completely out of the question, not only because it’d be a disaster in terms of storytelling and critically but also because it’s contractually impossible due to the actors. Just as impossible as producing 10 more episodes (or 5, or 2); there’s literally no more time, even if they had more money, unless we were willing to wait another year between seasons. And even if we were, HBO wouldn’t.

      It’s a difficult decision that D&D have made, but it’s a decision I respect. I hope some of you actually think some more about this, because if you do, you’ll understand why they did so. I’d like to see some of you do any better, considering the main focus is creating a satisfying story with satisfying arcs for their characters, even if it means going against the books. In this case, following the books would damage the other storylines we all know and love, which some of you don’t seem to realize.

      Also, Natalia Tena basically confirmed she’s back:

      http://www.vertele.com/video-articulo/la-salvaje-osha-de-juego-de-tronos-al-natural-nos-lleva-por-su-refugio-en-la-nueva-serie-de-lasexta/

      Didn’t know she spoke Spanish so well.

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    38. What Hibbard failed to say was the reason why they chose Dorne over the Ironborn.

      Conan Stevens, who D&D both want to play Euron, was available to shoot this summer due to a prior obligation to portray a CGI shit stain in an upcoming German Scheisse video.

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    39. I just can’t understand, D&D being such fans of the books and do something like this, I think they’re just fans of the first 3 books, they say all the time that if they could get just to the red weading they would be fine. But I hope that it’s just like you guys are talking about, maybe they’ll build up the greyjoy storyline in season 6, but at least give us starter in this one, like balon dying at the end and a glimpse of Euron or even just talk about him would blow my mind

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    40. Luka Nieto,

      I agree that fans should not be so quick to condemn the assumed direction of S5 and the show in general. For three reasons:

      1) We won’t even see S5 for nearly six months

      2) B&W have done a great job so far

      3) B&W are privy to where the story is going and we aren’t. This puts them in far better position than any of us to determine which story arcs are muscle, which are fat and what modifications can be made to still culminate the major points to where they align with the books when it’s all said and done.

      There’s room to love both the books and show and still be confident (with what we know so far) that the show will continue to do the books justice.

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    41. jentario,

      Let’s assume they get 8 seasons (or 9!), that there’s no issue. What is your suggestion here exactly? Because I’m yet to see one that makes any sense:

      Adapt AFFC in Season 5 and ADWD in Season 6? They can’t. Contractually impossible because of the actors. Also it’d probably be a storytelling and critical disaster, but that’s besides the point.

      Cut AFFC and ADWD in half, adapt the first halves in Season 5 and the second halves in Season 6? Well, yeah —if you want the story arc of pretty much every major character to be crippled and have absolutely no climax in Season 5. It only worked for Season 3 because of the Red Wedding right in the middle of ASOS, and even then there were some issues; Season 3 adapted more than half the book, and pretty much all of it for some storylines, so Season 4 had to resort to material book 4 and 5 for some characters, and reaaaaaly stretch it out for others, such as Arya and Jon. Also, some characters suffered greatly because of the split. Consider Stannis: in the beginning of ASOS he was down after the Battle of the Blackwater, but had his greatest comeback ever by the end of the book. The show had to stretch his depression out for two seasons and it indeed depressed most people.

      The first option is ruled out because it’s literally, legally impossible and the second because it’d be a terrible idea and Season 5 would have the most disappointingly unfinished arcs ever. After that, we have another option:

      Cram everything from AFFC & ADWD into Season 5? Well, they could, and they could be faithful as hell, but then you’d only get the major plotpoints from each character —a couple minutes of them per episode, and in each something major happening. Forget about character development. You think the characters’ motivations and inner desires and troubles and complexities have been simplified or whitewashed in the past? Well, imagine what would happen if Season 5 had to focus on every major plotpoint, instead of the emotional beats from the characters we already know.

      Considering all of that, is it really a bad idea to adapt the whole of AFFC & ADWD into Season 5 but have some things cut or simplified, especially the new storylines? How exactly would any of you do it any better, even on paper? Because I’d like to see that. I honestly would. I’d rather have a satisfying season with rich story arcs for characters who we have cared about for years now than having a technically more faithful season in terms of the plot but which would actually be devoid of any spirit because it’d have no time for the characters; or two seasons, the first of which has literally no climax for pretty much any of these characters we care about so much.

      BTW, on second thought, Tena’s “confirmation” is not so, not really. I was led to believe she had answered to “Will you be back?” with “Well… (coyly)… I hope so… Yes”, but it’s more like “Well, I hope so, yeah.”

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    42. The Hound,

      Show watchers don’t care about them cause the show producers don’t care about them. (Look at the Ironborn’s deadliest fighters fleeing from a shirtless Ramsay)

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    43. ” he offered us our best view yet of the show’s iteration of the Shy Maid, upon which Tyrion and Jorah will no doubt become well acquainted.”… I’m sorry (not sorry); I choose to read this and think: This is Gendry!
      #whereistheBull

        Quote  Reply

    44. arden,

      Liking the books and being an apologist are different things. That you reacted so strongly to my post hints at where you fall on that scale.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Ren Snow,

      Yes, I’m sure we could squeeze the whole Iron Islands storyline and everything else that’s missing if we just cut the beetles monologue, the Grey Worm / Missandei thing and whatever else you personally may find redundant. I’m sure those… 10 to 15 minutes will be more than enough to portray that storyline just as you imagined. These are whole new storylines we’re talking about; investing time in them is narratively more “expensive” than inventing what you consider filler for existing plotlines. No, cutting invented tertiary characters or these small scenes wouldn’t be nearly enough to add the things you want to be in.

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    46. I think a lot depends on how important the Euron/Ironborn/Oldtown/Citadel/Samwell/Jaqen storyline is to the overall end game.

      If that whole storyline is cuttable, they could save a lot of time for other things by just killing off Balon and leaving the Ironborn leaderless and out of the game. The biggest problem with this (other than its potential, but unknown to us, endgame importance) is that it would mean they basically have to just make shit up for Sam, Gilly, and Aemon for the rest of the series.

      If this storyline is important to the end game they could still get it in pretty easily. Here’s how:
      The Kingsmoot itself is totally cuttable. Balon died. Euron showed up and claimed the crown. Damphair said, no, let’s have a vote first. They had a vote, and Euron won anyway. With Yara already off in a position to be captured by Stannis (and Daenerys already having ships), they can cut out the voting, and cut Damphair and Victarion. Balon dies. Euron shows up and claims the crown. End of story. You don’t even need to cast Euron for S5, just show Balon seeing Euron’s ship approaching Pyke, and deciding to go down to the shore to send him away/kill him, but then “slipping” as he crosses the bridge.

      The conquest of the Shield Islands can (and should) happen off screen. Naval battles are very expensive to film. Naval battles involving a bunch of characters the audience doesn’t care about conquering a few islands the audience has never heard of would be a horrible waste of money and screen time. It can happen off screen during S5 and be reported to Cersei by the Tyrells, who want to send ships back home to defend their lands.

      Likewise, the raiding along the Mander and near Oldtown can happen off screen, and perhaps we could see a bit of wreckage in the water, and Oldtown’s defenders on high alert when Sam & Gilly arrive there at the end of S5.

      Sam’s actual visit to the citadel, and meeting new characters there can be held to season 6. In the book, it’s fine to introduce some new characters at the end of the book to tease the next book, but when you have to actually hire actors to play those roles, it makes sense to hold off a bit and introduce them at the beginning of the next season instead. Just end Sam’s arc for S5 with his ship approaching Oldtown.

      This way, you can essentially cut the AFFC Iron Islands storyline from S5, but still have all the critical players in the right places to have whatever important stuff happens in TWOW/ADOS included in S6/S7. If gives them a bit of time to “build up” Euron’s reputation before actually introducing him to the viewers directly.

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    47. Mine is the Furry,

      If you want to address the proud tradition of “German Scheisse” in film and television, in particular in television, please know your facts Mr.! It’s spelled “German Scheiße”, with a ß! (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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    48. Can’t say I’m surprised at all, honestly. As much as I would love to see Arianne and the other characters on screen, it became clear a while ago that they needed to be cut out to make the seven season storyline work. Even GRRM has been having trouble resolving all those plotlines, and he’s not working on a strict deadline like D&D. It makes sense they’d avoid introducing new storylines, not just to wrap it up in seven seasons, but to do it in such a way that Unsullied readers can get a coherent plot devoid of too many extraneous elements.

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    49. They’ve managed to keep Yara a part of S3 and S4 even though there was no narrative reason to do so (outside of giving her something to do until she re-enters the main story in later seasons). I’d be pretty surprised if she wasn’t a part of S5, even if it’s for just a scene or two. Since she’s headed back to Pyke, I imagine she’ll have a scene with Balon and I’d guess it would be to either set up or witness his death in order to set her S6 plot in motion. Probably a late season appearance.

      I have never, for the life of me understood why so many fans are horny to see the Kingsmoot depicted on-screen. It’s a stale fish of a scene with a bunch of groups of characters we don’t give a shit about (outside of Yara) standing up and talking about how great they are and then being chosen by applause or whatever to be the new King of the shitty wasteland that is the Iron Islands. And Yara doesn’t even win it and goes off to sulk. That would make for some amazing television I tell’ya. Rivaled only by Victarion’s “adventures” at sea.

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    50. Casso,

      This is exactly my best hope for Season 5: a mostly dialogue-based setup for a highly condensed version of AFFC’s Iron Islands storyline involving Euron, who would be delayed until Season 6. That’s as much as I’m willing to hope from Season 5, although I don’t actually expect all of it to be in. But it’d be nice, and then have Euron in season 6 fulfilling whatever his role will be in TWOW. What I do fully expect in Season 5 is Yara doing her latter ADWD stuff in Season 5 (which can be condensed to “getting kidnapped by Stannis”) and Balon dying.

      King Tommen,

      I’m constantly surprised by some people’s love of the ironborn. Is there any depth to them aside from “pirates are cool”? I’m sure there is for some people, and the latter Victarion stuff in ADWD was particularly enjoyable to me even though I don’t actually “like” the character, but… the Kingsmoot, really? When something is usually described as “badass” and little else is said about it by most people, I tend not to find it very entertaining.

      Nessa,

      I maintain that this is not a “seven seasons” issue. If you want to know what I think, read my previous ginormous post here. A TL;DR would be to say that, even with many other seasons ahead, AFFC & ADWD would have to be done in one season, or else lose in character development and/or fulfilling story arcs.

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    51. Mine is the Furry,

      Meant “unavailable”.

      I fucking love this show but I do love me some Iron Men. However, I actually don’t give a German Scheisse Shit that they confirmed what we already knew.

      Redundant poop intentional.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Luka Nieto,

      So, without a split that would cripple the story arcs of pretty much every character, you now have to arrive at the end of each of those storylines in one season… but you must have enough time with each character so that the story is emotionally satisfying. There has to be some character development. So what do you do, without magically time traveling and producing another 10 episodes? You do what you gotta do: focus on the characters we’ve already known for 4 years and cut what can be disposed of. You know why Jaime is in Dorne, partly? To justify the time the show will spend in Dorne

      .

      Your entire post was on the money. You have to consider how a good show is made, how it is able to succeed over several seasons. And they certainly didn’t want viewers to have the same difficulties that readers had in those two books.

      When I first read the books I skipped much of the Iron men plot; I found it too long and really boring, when I’d much rather focus on my favorite characters Subsequent reading showed me that they did have a place in the story But I can’t say i am at all concerned about the omission. Maybe next season..They need to focus whats on their plate for this season and make sure its done well

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    53. I always imagined that they will end season 5 with

      balon’s death and yara comin back only to see the silence in the distance. The euron=daario theory makes a lot of sense for why they would keep delaying the intro of euron. I think victarion is actually one of the D&D’s fav characters so I dont see why they would cut them. Pirates are cool and everyone would love to see two badass pirates going head to head. I have learned to accept arianne getting cut but I really hope they didnt cut the griffs. Maybe they jus havent announced young griff since it would spoil too much somehow? I hope trystane=quentyn not young griff. Also maybe they can say arianne is locked away in the tower at sunspear so that they can cast her for season 6. Trystane falls for myrcella and tries the queenmaker plot because he finds out he is going to go marry dany and then it fails and he is sent to mereen. If they cut all of these characters what will the casting video look like for next year? There is no one left to add at this point so delaying the greyjoys is a smart move.

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    54. I can’t say I’m sorry to have confirmation the Iron Islands plot(s) won’t be appearing in season 5. I wouldn’t mind getting a little bit in Season 6, but it was absolutely my least favorite part of the last two books.

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    55. Hi guys
      I was expecting this news but I am still disappointed. There are parts of the Ironborn story I really love (especially Euron) so I think it’s a real shame we won’t get them yet and maybe not ever.

      I actually wrote a post about this on my blog the other day. Perhaps it will interest a few people. http://mariefoxprice83.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/release-the-kraken/

      I also wrote a post about the exclusion of Arianne Martell which I will link to just in case that’s of interest too.

      http://mariefoxprice83.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/dorne-enters-the-game-of-thrones-spoiler-warnings/

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    56. Strider,

      Grrrrr. That 3rd impotent leech is starting to piss me off. They are just teasing the patient Sullied at this point. S5 MUST have something to close this topic out or expand upon it.

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    57. Lion of Night:
      What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger!

      I like this attitude. They’re probably saving the Iron Islands for later in the series. What is dead may never die!!

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    58. I’m more sad about losing “Aegon” and Arianne. Don’t get me wrong, I’d like all of the major book characters to be in, but I realize there is a budget and a limit to what they can fit in. The Greyjoy uncles are my least favorite major storyline in the books. Euron is the only one worth a damn, so I hope he makes it on the show somehow, but I would not miss the dullard and drowned priest.

      Now, bring me Wyman Manderly, right meow!

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    59. Ok I’m a wee bit drunk and a lot bit horny so why don’t we take over this thread and turn it into a “Who in ASoIaF would you Bang, Marry, and Kill” thread. I’ll start.

      Bang: Mel. 1) I already do and 2) she seems like the kind of girl that wouldn’t care if you didn’t call her the day after. Am I right?

      Marry: Lady Olenna. Bitch has got loot, yo.

      Kill: Lady Olenna. See “Marry”.

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    60. Casso:
      I think a lot depends on how important the Euron/Ironborn/Oldtown/Citadel/Samwell/Jaqen storyline is to the overall end game.

      I enjoyed your options. It does seem like the showrunners are teasing us with their endgame knowledge. I just want some closure for the fookin’ leech! I agree that they could condense the storyline significantly….Heck, why don’t they have some faceless dude whack Balon and then name Yara Queen? Anything! I just want something to happen to acknowledge it.

      arden,

      I don’t follow that analogy…

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    61. Casso,

      The only events that you mention that seem connected to the final battle of ice and fire is Sam arriving in Oldtown to meet Maester Marwyn who studied with Mirri Mas Dur and understands the glass candle–and oh yeah Alleras (connection to Dorne). The rest is stuff that just moves tertiary characters around so that they in turn can move primary characters to action. D&D can use other existing tertiary characters for the same purpose and save money and time. It is the run down to the end game now, so only those events from the books that expediently move the major players in to position will make the show. I fully expect that the cast of characters and events in Oldtown (if it is even in) will be drastically cut despite the connections to both the Wall and Dorne, and only expect that line to continue if it contributes significantly to the end. Maybe none of it will be important or can be taken on by other characters. Thanks to a lack of source material, we just don’t know.
      At this point, D&D must be planning backwards from the end to make it all work thanks to all of the lines being laid out without closure when they started. Remember, they didn’t get the end game from GRRM until just before last season, so much of what was included in earlier seasons may be left to twist in the wind or be summarily cut short to drive the story to its conclusion in the promised 7 seasons.

      I never understood the Iron Islands love either. The only nugget I took from the whole plot was that Euron has seen the world and knows something of the magic that is re-entering the world. The rest of the characters had limited scope (except Yar-Asha and Theon of course). No loss to me without them.

      I do want closure on the leech tho. Just one freaking line! Just tell us he’s dead and move along, for Pete’s sake! Sheesh!

        Quote  Reply

    62. Possibility: Cut their losses, and try to mop up as best they can. Yara returns and Balon is dead. No Euron. He just died, fell off a bridge. Woops. That happens. Happened to Robert, for instance. So. Yara becomes leader of the Iron Islands, decides to actually pursue her re-conciliatory strategy that she articulates in her Kingsmoot speech in the book, and goes north to negotiate some kind of deal with Stannis as he marches south to Winterfell. Anyways, somehow they get mucked together, just like ADWD, either as Stannis' prisoner or as a legit military ally.

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    63. Interesting to see how Yara’s arc plays out with the cutting of the Feast plot.

      I feel she will be present for the Leech consequence, and then will go to Stannis and yield so she can exact revenge on the Bolton’s.

      Still confused over the Bran’s in/out/in/out…getting a headache!

      Well they took a day off in Osuna, probably to install paparazzi proof screens, etc. around the plaza. Those pics were major spoilers and for once I wish they had never been taken, betcha the photographers made quite a bit of pesos for them though.

      Appears that the fog machines were present to create an early morning mist and not a certain book event as many previously theorized.

      I read somewhere that Ian McElhinney who was being interviewed for a play he’s directing, mentioned he had completed all his scenes for the show, I hope he meant season and not series.

      Damn, Dogs beat me too it, while I was typing.

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    64. Mine is the Furry:
      Ok I’m a wee bit drunk and a lot bit horny so why don’t we take over this thread and turn it into a “Who in ASoIaF would you Bang, Marry, and Kill” thread. I’ll start.

      Bang: Mel.1) I already do and 2) she seems like the kind of girl that wouldn’t care if you didn’t call her the day after.Am I right?

      Marry: Lady Olenna.Bitch has got loot, yo.

      Kill: Lady Olenna.See “Marry”.

      Ok next.

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    65. tyjon,

      Barristan is an example of a wasted character on the show. Should have left him out all together if they weren’t going to make good use of him.

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    66. We will see a lot of the Greyjoys, IMO.

      Balon, he mysteriously falls of a bridge during a hellish storm. (tee hee!)

      Yara tries to lead the Ironborn against Stannis but loses across the board.

      Theon, he is all over the north as Stannis and the Boltons duke it out. He plays an integral role in the end of this season and the beginning of the next.

      My contention is that the spoiler chapters for Winter were released when it became evident that the show would spoil them in Season 5 otherwise. We can even see the curtain closing on Season 5 with lots of cliffhanging; Battle of Meereen undecided, Dornish plot initiated, the Boltons apparently defeating Stannis off-screen, the pink letter, the death of Jon, the walk of shame.

      The book comes out, then we get the book on screen in Season 6.

      Season 7 spoils just a touch of Dreams as they save the conclusion for the cinema and the release of the Dreams.

      It is known.

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    67. Ok. For WotW Mods I would:

      Bang: Kenny, goes without saying.

      Marry: Oz. Such a sweet heart.

      Kill: Sue, but then only so I can give her the breath of life and resuscitate her.

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    68. Luka Nieto:
      the other guy,

      Oh… so many assumptions in so few sentences. First, some storylines are storylines for their own sake, not just foreshadowing or setup. That’s a rather dry and mechanical way in which to view the story. People liked the Brotherhood without Banners and were none the wiser that it was setting up LSH, and if LSH is indeed cut they will still be. There’s not a problem with that at all. It served a function for the character of Arya, the Hound and for the worldbuilding of the show (resurrections, magic returning.)

      Also, you assume that all the cuts are “to focus so much on Dorne.” We don’t even know how much of Dorne we’ll see, so what are you even talking about? Also, how would you yourself plan the season? I don’t think you’ve actually thought this through. Many people obviously haven’t. D&D have.

      Please consider that at least most story lines must have a satisfying conclusion, a climax, an arc for the characters, so their stories must generally end with the climaxes of AFFC / ADWD; you can’t just cut them in half and stop there. It only worked for Season 3 because of the Red Wedding in the middle of ASOS; there’s nothing like that in AFFC or ADWD, and honestly, even the “S3 / S4″ split of ASOS resulted in some characters suffering. Stannis, no doubt. Also, I love Arya and the Hound, and their character development was great, but in terms of plot they stretched out two chapters for a whole season.

      So, without a split that would cripple the story arcs of pretty much every character, you now have to arrive at the end of each of those storylines in one season… but you must have enough time with each character so that the story is emotionally satisfying. There has to be some character development. So what do you do, without magically time traveling and producing another 10 episodes? You do what you gotta do: focus on the characters we’ve already known for 4 years and cut what can be disposed of. You know why Jaime is in Dorne, partly? To justify the time the show will spend in Dorne.

      Also, the only other option is to literally follow the book structure: adapt AFFC in season 5 and then ADWD in season 6. But that’s completely out of the question, not only because it’d be a disaster in terms of storytelling and critically but also because it’s contractually impossible due to the actors. Just as impossible as producing 10 more episodes (or 5, or 2); there’s literally no more time, even if they had more money, unless we were willing to wait another year between seasons. And even if we were, HBO wouldn’t.

      It’s a difficult decision that D&D have made, but it’s a decision I respect. I hope some of you actually think some more about this, because if you do, you’ll understand why they did so. I’d like to see some of you do any better, considering the main focus is creating a satisfying story with satisfying arcs for their characters, even if it means going against the books. In this case, following the books would damage the other storylines we all know and love, which some of you don’t seem to realize.

      Also, Natalia Tena basically confirmed she’s back:

      http://www.vertele.com/video-articulo/la-salvaje-osha-de-juego-de-tronos-al-natural-nos-lleva-por-su-refugio-en-la-nueva-serie-de-lasexta/

      Didn’t know she spoke Spanish so well.

      That’s quite big,

      can you post a translation?

        Quote  Reply

    69. Mine is the Furry: That’s only 1/3

      I know, but “marry” is tough. The only possibility I could think of is Doran (looking like Siddig, of course). Then I started thinking how problematic the gout could be (we’re talking marriage, after all). Now, if he allowed me to continue to bang Darkstar, if I felt like it, that could solve that. Jamie is another option, but he presents his own problems.

      “Kill” is tough, too, because as much as I want Walder Frey, Roose, and Ramsay to die, I think killing Cersei may be best for the realm, and thus my life with either Doran or Jamie.

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    70. What is dead may never die….unless Benioff and Weiss get their hands on you and then you’re dead for good to never rise again, not harder or stronger.

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    71. Am I the only one who pictured the Shy Maid to be significantly bigger? I guess on the show it’ll only have 2 or 3 people traveling on it, compared to 8 in the books. It probably won’t even be named.

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    72. David Benioff said at Comic Con this is the final season for an influx of new characters, and starting season 6 is when they will begin to bring it all together and start to tie it up.

      Although that’s not final confirmation, if he was telling the truth and that is the plan, this is essentially curtains for the Greyjoys in the TV adaptation.

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    73. Everything the Greyjoy uncles do in AFFC/ADWD can be explained in some brief exposition if they decide to include them in season 6. This doesn’t really bother me. Something had to go and this was the easiest cut. I’ve never understood the hard on people have for Euron and Vic and always thought they’re less important than people thought. If they can squeeze them in, great. If not, I understand.

      One only needs to look at True Blood in its last few seasons to understand why constantly introducing new characters and subplots isn’t the best decision for TV.

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    74. ctid,

      Yes, an influx is Doran,Obara,Nymeria,Tyene,Areo,Trystane,Kindly Man,Waif,High Sparrow, and Septon Unella. Several new recurring characters in multiple storylines. Euron is one character.

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    75. Bang: Jaime. He’s hot.

      Marry: Jon. If he can get out of his vows. He’d make a good husband. He’s nice and sensitive, but without being a pushover. Plus, he’s potentially either lord of Winterfell or the king of Westeros. Hypergamy FTW!

      Kill: Victarion. He’s an idiot. The Westeros equivalent of a douchey frat bro.

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    76. WeirwoodTreeHugger,

      Then again, to balance the argument, BB’s 5th seasons (pts 1 and 2) introduced several new characters that led to the most stunning and crazy episode of all (Ozymandias). As long as the new characters’ arcs lead to dramatic interactions with the primary/known characters, interesting things can happen in good hands.

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    77. My assumption is that if whatever Vic and Euron do in Essos with regards to Dany is relevant to the endgame, the show will put Yara on that path instead of them. This gives us a POV of a character the audience understands and is familiar with as opposed to someone entirely new introduced late in the game.

      I have my doubts about the role that Asha will play in the books now that Theon is with Stannis. I don’t know if there’s a big point in her being involved intimately with that storyline and the only reason I think Martin had her captured by Stannis is because he desperately needed a POV character to tell us what Stannis was up to on the way to Winterfell and there were no other candidates he could use. Now that Theon’s there to provide us updates, I wonder if Asha fades into the background somewhat. As the show isn’t hamstrung by this narrative device, they might find a better way to keep her involved by having her sub in for other Greyjoys, thus condensing and simplifying the overall story.

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    78. I know it’s a popular thing here to hate on the Greyjoys, but according to Twitter and Facebook comments, most Sullied who use social media are pretty pissed.

      And me too. Me and my subjectivity would like you to fuck off, D&D!

      Some folks are even losing interest in S05 because of Arianne and the Greyjoys ommision. I’ll watch, but i certainly won’t be so excited about it.

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    79. Hodor’s Bastard:
      WeirwoodTreeHugger,

      Then again, to balance the argument, BB’s 5th seasons (pts 1 and 2)introduced several new characters that led to the most stunning and crazy episode of all (Ozymandias). As long as the new characters’ arcs lead to dramatic interactions with the primary/known characters, interesting things can happen in good hands.

      The difference being of course that Breaking Bad didn’t have to service 30-40 other established characters before adding a couple new ones to the mix. GoT is bursting at the seams character and storyline-wise as it stands. That’s the main reason you can’t just add a whole new group into the mix unless it’s absolutely necessary (like Dorne almost assuredly is).

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    80. Fjordgazer,
      The thing is if you are annoyed by something you are more likely to comment than if you are nonplussed, or happy, on something like Facebook. Something had to give. Besides in HBO’s/ D&D’s minds unsullied are more important than sullied, which makes sense as they make up the majority of the audience. And unsullied will be overwhelmed by too many new characters.

      King Tommen
      Agree with this completely. BB had a tiny cast, whilst the new characters only replaced dead characters. The Greyjoys would only be adding to the already stretched cast.

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    81. Fjordgazer,

      And there are millions of unsullied who are lucky they won’t be inflicted with Victardian the dullard and the other pirates who get their asses kicked literally every time they face quality adversaries. Give me brains over overrated brawn any day. Doran > Vic and Damphair.

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    82. King Tommen: GoT is bursting at the seams character and storyline-wise as it stands.

      I love your line above…it’s a beautiful thing, isn’t it? What an experience this tale is. I just view GoT’s robust nature with enthusiasm rather than concern. When known PoV characters get blatantly omitted (or forgotten as is this case, it seems), one can’t help but think that the showrunners are truly spoiling the Sullied with their “budgetary” and containment concerns, directing our eager eyes to the main storylines. We know better than that…in ASoI&F, what goes on in the periphery is just as fascinating.

      Does a “conservation of story” theory really apply with ASoI&F? Is every move that D&D make from now on a possible spoiler for us? Or are they picking and choosing from a bunch of fascinating tales, intentionally/contractually leaving some for the author to navigate prudently, to get to the endline? My soul wants to believe that the ironborn matter…but perhaps not in the visual story.

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    83. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      Fjordgazer,

      And there are millions of unsullied who are lucky they won’t be inflicted with Victardian the dullard and the other pirates who get their asses kicked literally every time they face quality adversaries. Give me brains over overrated brawn any day. Doran > Vic and Damphair.

      That’s, like, your opinion man. And i think your opinion sucks, but you’re entitled to it.

      Jeb:
      Fjordgazer,
      The thing is if you are annoyed by something you are more likely to comment than if you are nonplussed, or happy, on something like Facebook. Something had to give. Besides in HBO’s/ D&D’s minds unsullied are more important than sullied, which makes sense as they make up the majority of the audience. And unsullied will be overwhelmed by too many new characters.

      King Tommen
      Agree with this completely. BB had a tiny cast, whilst the new characters only replaced dead characters. The Greyjoys would only be adding to the already stretched cast.

      Fair enough. But I’m not sure the unsullied are an “ample” majority of the audience. After all, a lot of them have picked up the books, myself included.

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    84. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I am inclined to believe most characters GRRM has introduced in ASOIAF “matter” it’s more a question of to what degree they matter. I think there are a number of characters who serve more as a narrative tool to perform a task in order to move the plot forward for the more important characters.

      And if it’s the action or task that is important and not really the character themselves, then the question the producers will have to ask is, “can someone else who we’ve already introduced do this instead?”

      Although I have no proof of this, my best guess is that the Ironborn uncles are in ASOIAF to service the bigger story of Dany coming to Westeros and probably not a whole lot more. I have serious doubts that the uncles will end up interacting with the important Greyjoys that the readers/audience actually care for (Theon/Asha). So if they’re more a means to an end, why would the show bother devoting precious time to establishing them? Whatever plot points need to be covered off, there can be a write-around to allow for other characters or circumstances to make that happen.

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    85. Again, I’m of the opinion that if a storyline has been omitted then it is because D&D already know where the story is going, so naturally they will remove anything that isn’t necessary. You can’t expect everything from the books to translate well to TV.

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    86. Luka Nieto:
      the other guy,

      Didn’t know she spoke Spanish so well.

      Spanish is her mother tongue. She grew up in England, but mostly always spoke Spanish with her parents. I’ve heard her interviewed multiple times where she will switch between the two languages essentially as a native in each.

      On a side note, apparently she can also speak Basque (her father is a native Basque speaker). I haven’t heard that though – just from a Spanish interview, in which she was described as speaking all three (English, Spanish, Basque) “a la perfección”.

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    87. Chickenduck: Spanish is her mother tongue.She grew up in England, but mostly always spoke Spanish with her parents.I’ve heard her interviewed multiple times where she will switch between the two languages essentially as a native in each.

      On a side note, apparently she can also speak Basque (her father is a native Basque speaker).I haven’t heard that though – just from a Spanish interview, in which she was described as speaking all three (English, Spanish, Basque) “a la perfección”.

      But…

      What does she say about coming back into Game of Thrones?

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    88. King Tommen,

      It’s so funny….I’ve gone from “fuck the ironborn” to “save the ironborn” in a span of a few WotW threads. Just give me a little leech love, please…?

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    89. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I’d still hold out hope for that if only because they very much seem like they want to keep Yara involved in every season.

      My read on the Hibbard quotes is when he says “major Ironborn story” he’s referring to the Kingsmoot and Victarion’s chapters. Yara and Balon are already established on the show and won’t be “cut” at this point.

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    90. ctid,

      OK I’ve watched it now, it’s about 2 seconds of answer.

      All she says is in answer to the question “Will we see you again in Game of Thrones?” and she says “Yes for sure”

      Nothing else. No idea if she’s in season 5, and nothing new to report.

      Damn.

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    91. Not cool. I enjoyed Iron Islands much more than Dorne on a reread. While they may not factor into the final outcome, they were conflicted tertiary characters with troubled family history and were blood thirsty warriors.
      Euron was the key but he is intentionally left mysterious while vic and damphair showed promise of being involved in some potentially awesome scenes. Cmon that zealot aeron summoning a krakken and vic terrorizing the high seas all the way to mereen.
      Oh well. Maybe in the asoiaf lego animated series. Fingers crossed

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    92. Holy fuck that’s a lot of comments. I just rewatched Barton Fink with a friend and enjoyed some rye and coke expecting maybe twenty more comments to have cropped up, not around seventy!

      It seems people like AFFC more than you often hear. Hmm. I imagine Euron could show up eventually but if there are ways around him they may take them. Who knows. Come the dawn, we shall see.

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    93. WeirwoodTreeHugger,

      If you’re using True Blood as a comparison, they strayed miles away from the source material which is why it went shite. Hopefully GoT will learn from that. Unfortunately they seem to be changing an awful lot for Season 5. Nothing wrong with a large cast if you know what you’re doing.

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    94. I like Dorne AND the Iron Islands.

      But I lean towards liking the Iron Islands more.

      I’m not surprised it’s been cut, but definitely somewhat disappointed. Here’s hoping it gets into Season 6 in some form at least.

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    95. My prediction:

      Balon is probably going to die/be replaced by Euron offscreen…so that can be mentioned in S5 to close the leech hole and they can use it to build up Euron’s reputation before introducing him in S6. I have a feeling that either Yara/Asha or Euron will replace Victarion in the battle of Mereen…which will also be pushed back to S6. No Kingsmoot, no Aeron, no Victarion…but none of them are necessary to move the story along. This would even work if Euron is actually Dario since he is still present at the D, pit scene but could easily be sent away or take off afterwards…before he shows up as Euron or with the Iron fleet?

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    96. Hodor’s Bastard:
      WeirwoodTreeHugger,

      Then again, to balance the argument, BB’s 5th seasons (pts 1 and 2)introduced several new characters that led to the most stunning and crazy episode of all (Ozymandias). As long as the new characters’ arcs lead to dramatic interactions with the primary/known characters, interesting things can happen in good hands.

      Well, to go off the BB comparison, I thought it was a shame that (BB spoilers)the final season ended with a confrontation between Walt and the neo Nazis. Most of the season was building up to a confrontation between Hank and Walt, with Jesse vs Walt also being a major theme of the last season, and that felt appropriate, because those were characters that were there from the beginning, that we had invested a lot of time in. Walt vs Hank turning into Walt vs Uncle Jack in those last couple episodes was actually pretty damn disappointing. Even Todd, who was actually a really interesting villain, felt out of place as one of the major villains in the last episode of a series that he was in a relatively small portion of.

      Relating that to Game of Thrones, we’ve been teased about the White Walkers since the first episode, the dragons can find their own roots in that same hour, and from the get go the Starks, Lannisters, and Targaryens were the families most important to the series. They should play a part in the endgame, they’ve earned it. If Euron were to play a significant role in the endgame, it would feel tacked on, like BB’s neo Nazis, and would be really disappointing for me. Characters like the Greyjoy uncles or the Griffs have no right to be introduced so late in the story and demand as much significance (or more) than the characters I’ve been following since the beginning.

      I’m partly venting about BB here (recently finished it) but I think it’s interesting that you brought up BB’s new character introductions as an examole of how final-act-intros can work, when I actually think they’re a good example of what I DON’T want GoT to do. I’m glad they’re cutting the fat, and I hope that as the TV series continues, it focuses on the major characters of the story instead of pushing the spotlight to numerous other characters that will never matter as much as the ones that got us to love the show in the first place.

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    97. All i know for sure is one thing: if the show starts flopping in S05, not by sticking too closely to AFFC/ADWD (as somewhat discontented readers predicted a while ago) but rather by straying too much from them as it seems to be doing, i’ll be getting a good laught out of it, regardless of how much one considers the changes actually contribute to its flopping.

      Only time will tell…

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    98. The third leech is what will become Lady Stoneheart. It is known.

      Considering what D&D do, this is VERY possible.

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    99. Nobody gave a shit about The Iron Islands in AFFC, but now that it’s been cut… “What? I loved them.”
      Well, I don’t believe you, they were all boring as fuck.

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    100. tyjon,

      Pesos. Really? Because Spain is in South America now. Wow. Spain uses Euros, because, you know… it’s in Europe, and the EU and the eurozone. Before that, more than a decade ago, it used Pesetas. Pesos haven’t been used in Spain for centuries.

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    101. Calm down, peeps. I think it’s pretty obvious they just split the two story parts (Dorne & Iron Islands) for having one in each season (5&6).

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    102. Well. they should at least kill Balon, through Asha’s eyes. It’s incredible that he’s still alive, when he should have died in season 3 at the latest. Well, at least this is one decision that makes some sense, if you had to choose between the Iron Islands and Dorne, then yeah, choose Dorne, they are far more important, not only through what they’re doing, but because of all the backstory: Arthur and Ashara Dayne, Tower of Joy, the Martell plan, the Martell-Targaryen unions in the past. So yes, I understand taking out the Iron Islands, especially because they will probably not be that important later on…. but the Griffs and Arianne???

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    103. arden:
      Cumsprite,

      AFFC/ADWD apologists? Lmao sorry for liking the book?

      Pathetic.

      I second that.

      And why the hell is this Daario = Euron theory still a thing? It’s the most ridiculous theory I have ever read. Well, apart from the Daario = Benjen theory.

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    104. OK, let’s stop freaking out for a moment.

      They said they were doing “one of these two” in season 5. Not in the whole series.
      The plot is already incredibly heavy with new arcs and characters, it makes sense to not lose the audience with the Iron Islands on top of that. AFFC was great, but we can’t leave half the characters out of the story like it did, so it needs some adaptation.

      So far, D&D have dealt well with introducing new characters subtly enough to make the viewers acquainted with them, mostly using the “guy you already know gets involved in some stuff, meets new guy, goes away, actually now you like the new guy, he does stuff, repeat” pattern.

      The only true links we have with the Iron islands are Theon and Asha (I’m leaving Balon out because too little screen time yet for the viewers to feel more than “oh yeah, that dude” towards him).
      In a TV narrative logic, the only Iron Island introduction that would make sense would be Asha coming home and being the center of the plot, at least at the beginning.
      So, two options :
      -> Asha is in season 5 and somehow everything is solved in a fingersnap; I don’t like it, and it’s not likely;
      -> The Iron Islands (most of it at least) are postponed to season 6 and we have an actual arc centered around Asha; I like it and it’s more likely because :
      -Balon had his magic leech and he is still alive. There are never been continuity problems with this show, so they will have to deal with it at some point.
      -“Show, don’t tell” TV logic. In AFFC, we learn of Balon’s death through Aeron; in a book, it’s gut-wrenching, but on TV, it doesn’t work. We need to see it happen, and for the viewers to understand the impact, we need some more Balon screen-time beforehand.
      -We also need an aftermath for his death; therefore of course we will have Euron, he’s just central to the whole thing and to Asha escaping the Iron Islands. If we want the Iron-borns to wreck havoc on Westeros like they will probably do at some point, there is absolutely no way Asha just -tadaaaaam ! – becomes queen in a puff of smoke.

      More reasons to keep the Iron Islands in ? There you go :
      -Euron is hot. This is a real reason. Not kidding or fangirling here. He is completely screwed up, machiavelic, smart, darkly funny, AND handsome; he’s basically a gift for HBO material. We don’t have anyone as high on the hot-crazy diagram apart from Ramsay, and it is something that works very well on screen. It would be easy to bring him in the show, and it would bring a lot to the series (think of an actual Asha/Euron convo). I can’t see him being cut.

      -Potential in epic scenes. Pirate ships, drowning men, reaving… The Iron Islands are a lot of things, but certainly not boring. D&D only need to take their pick in epicness; plus, since basically everyone is against them, they can use them as antagonists whatever direction they wish to take.

      TL:DR : Continuity with magic leech + TV narrative logic + diversity and easy-to-use potential of Iron-borns + faith in D&D because YES, they are doing a great job = Iron Islands for the win.

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    105. Not included in above reasons because it’s more subjective : great characters.
      Call me a braindead moron if you like, but I really like the Greyjoy uncles.

      Aeron is gut-wrenching in his desperate clinging to religion to escape Euron’s torments, and if they managed to bring up their relationship on screen, it would be hair-rising, while touching the very dark issue of family abuse.
      Victarion is also a favorite of mine because of his lack of confidence in his own manliness driving him to crazy decisions, which is also a very deep subject.

      So yeah, the Greyjoys aren’t flamboyant, smart or chivalrous, they keep making terrible decisions, but that’s the whole point of them : they’re human beings trying to deal with their inner frailty in a world of toughness. They are touching, they are deep down the opposite of the cliché pirates they would like to be (friendly reminder that Victarion is just hoping for a family of his own), and I love them for that.

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    106. One thing that I thought of which would be the ideal way of introducing Euron (I have no idea if someone already thought of this): making him first appear in the House of Black & White this or next season, while Arya is there, contracting the faceless men. It could initially shroud him in much-needed mystery if he’s a well-known actor, while linking him to character we know (Jaqen and Arya), and linking the Ironborn storyline into the overarching plot.

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    107. Lollius Palicanus,

      I absolutely hadn’t thought of that but YES ! That would be great, and enough to introduce a potential “gasp-moment” if, say, Asha comes home to find him around… and only the viewers know. Yes, I could see that work ! 🙂

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    108. King Tommen: The difference being of course that Breaking Bad didn’t have to service 30-40 other established characters before adding a couple new ones to the mix. GoT is bursting at the seams character and storyline-wise as it stands. That’s the main reason you can’t just add a whole new group into the mix unless it’s absolutely necessary (like Dorne almost assuredly is).

      Not to mention that many people really disliked that the BB endgame revolved around a bunch of characters we’d never met before. I read a bunch of reviews/opinions that were critical of the whole neo-Nazi plot.

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    109. For all we know, budget issues raised their ugly head. Hiring actors for two locations might have been cost prohibitive, so D&D went with the most important storyline. So don’t automatically blame them.

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    110. Tyrion Pimpslap:

      That’s, like, your opinion man. And i think your opinion sucks, but you’re entitled to it.

      Jeb:

      Fair enough. But I’m not sure the unsullied are an “ample” majority of the audience. After all, a lot of them have picked up the books, myself included.

      House Pineapple,

      You tell them! Unfortunately, Greyjoy haters feel like simplifying them (rapist scum!) in a way they wouldn’t with other characters they like.

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    111. Also, other than this site and Westeros.org, everywhere i look on the internet has turned “Jaime in Dorne” into a sort of joke a la Darkstar’s “I am of the night”.

      You might want to call them a “vocal minority” if you want, but the evidence is there that a lot of people will stop watching, start hate-watching or even discouraging some Unsullied who aren’t even picking up the books in the first place (“Look, you don’t want to watch anymore, they’re ruining the story”; this is known to happen).

      Of course, these were all risks D&D knew from long ago, i guess.

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    112. Fjordgazer,

      I google searches “Jaime in Dorne” and did not find many sites with those “what a joke” comments you were suggesting. Other than in Game of Thrones and ASOIAF fan sites I don’t see anyone even talking about this

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    113. Elphias:
      And this is why we could have used more episodes per season.

      doing more episodes would be too physically taxing on D&D. Filming in separate countries at a time is only really done for movies. 10 episodes is like making a 10 hour movie

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    114. Turncloak,
      Fjordgazer,

      I didn’t google it, but I have heard some book-reader friends complain (mostly because they were expecting some Jaime in Riverrun action).
      However, I think it’s mostly due to automatic-grumpy-mode whenever there’s a change (not blaming anyone, I was a bit pissed off with it at first, too; it’s normal when you loved something in the books and were looking forward to seeing it on screen).

      Call me optimistic, but I think complaints will settle down pretty quickly when the season starts – it’s difficult to get a good idea of what they’re doing now, but so far everything went pretty well (Bran at Craster’s, for example, was total WTF at first, and turned out pretty cool because it allowed some quality Bran character development).

      We’re just grouchy old people waiting to be proven wrong. 🙂

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    115. I always assumed they’d cut both Dorne and the I.I. so at least I’m half right.

      I still don’t see the point of including only the irrelevant characters in Dorne, tho. Wish they’d just cut them all. And then we wouldn’t have to suffer through more Bronn + Jaime “lulz”.

      BTW, If Jaime doesn’t punch someone and say “Her name is Brienne.” I am going to write a strongly worded letter to D&D. Maybe he’ll punch Bronn, that would make me happy.

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    116. Fjordgazer,

      The Unsullied audience for this show is far greater than the Sullied. That is who D&D are serving. In order to keep everyone’s interest, they need to make a coherent, exciting season out of 2 books that are frankly, very poorly structured and bloated with a ton of new characters and storylines that stray away from the great characters and storylines the audience and readers had invested much time in previously. GRRM actively ignores editor suggestions and these 2 books and their bloat are a direct consequence of that decision.

      Cutting extraneous interactions and characters that aren’t really connected to the main story and having a beloved set of characters arrive in a new plot in order to hold the audience’s interest while integrating this new (important) group onto the show should in theory, help the audience enjoy this season more, not less.

      You know how all those people whined and whined about the Jaime/Cersei sept scene and said a lot of things you mentioned in the paragraph above? The ratings for the show continued to increase throughout S4 so at the end of the day, just because a group of readers who don’t feel like they’re getting exactly what they want bitch and moan, it has zero affect on the popularity of the show.

      If people stop watching the show, it will be because it has become uninteresting and unwieldy, not because it’s not including every new development from the books.

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    117. Hodor Targaryen,

      Good counter punch, ser. I must admit that I am quite biased regarding BB and it is indeed a microcosm (much smaller scale) of what GoT’s challenge is. I just brought it up because the end of BB’s S4 signified the end of a great act (druglord Gus’s violent death), not unlike the end of GoT’s S4, which represents the end of ASoI&F’s first act. This is the perfect time to inject chaotic new characters/storylines to truly test the primary plot threads. And there is indeed good material to work with. I understand the need for “conservation of story” in this tale but I am more concerned about the spoilery nature of “picking and choosing” threads at this point. So many “What ifs” that could be explored….Yes, I am an insecure sullied who is still desperately holding onto the books-before-film fantasy. 🙂

      Cheers for the 3rd leech! Maybe it needs some encouragement….

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    118. I am utterly disappointed.

      Only three responses to Bang, Marry, Kill? I guess I thought more highly of you Greatjohn of Slumber.

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    119. Luka Nieto,

      I think AFFC and ADWD could have made for a season and a half, with around the first third of TWOW (the battles, climaxes and the aftermath) to round it out. Season 5 would have been a bit slower and not as good as 4, but we would have gotten a fuller story with the Griffs and the Iron Born and probably Arianne as well.

      That said, a tighter more explosive season 5 will be great (better than the hypothetical season 5), it’s just the show as a whole that may or may not suffer from these changes. We really don’t know what’s coming up in TWOW and if it’ll be any good, but what the show is doing in season 5 and on is very different.

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    120. jentario,

      You’ll already get a season and a half out of AFFC and ADWD. Remember, season 3 adapted about 60% of ASOS, more like 80% for a few storylines (Jon, Arya) and 100% for Bran. Season 4 had plenty of material from the fourth and fifth books. Everything but Jorah’s exile after Daenerys took Meereen in episode 5 was from ADWD; Bran’s whole story line as well; the first three “Reek” chapters were roughly adapted in-between Season 3 (the parts about Reek remembering his torture and training) and Season 4 (Roose chiding Ramsay, the Fall of Moat Cailin, and the Bolton army going to Winterfell); Brienne’s story roughly included most of her AFFC stuff, intelligently putting it earlier in the timeline so that she at least has a chance to find Sansa or Arya, as opposed to the books; Sansa’s entire plot from AFFC was in Season 4, but for the last half of her last chapter. And I’m sure I’m missing other things as well. They even succinctly took care of the ADWD/TWOW plot of Tycho going to Westeros to come to an agreement with Stannis.

      I fully expect Season 5 to suffer as an adaptation of the books. Each season has been less faithful than the last, but the truth is that the ASOS split into Season 3 and Season 4 allowed them to have most of the book in there, and that won’t happen in Season 5. For many, it will fail as an adaptation.

      However, I have high hopes for this incoming season as a television show on its own terms, which is what the show is for most people —and I do mean most, as in almost everyone. Season 3 and 4 suffered a bit from stretching out the ASOS story arcs of certain characters, such as Jon and Stannis. Arya, too —although I loved every minute of her with the Hound, I must admit the plot progression was next to null in season 4. Season 5 will not have this problem. Granted, Brienne’s, Sansa’s and Bran’s stories might meander a bit because they’ll have to invent stuff and in the case of Sansa and Bran maybe stretch out early TWOW material into a season. However, the rest of the characters have a season jam-packed full of thick plot, which hasn’t really happened in the show since Season 2. Season 1 (and book 1 as well) had the most cohesive, open-and-shut story; Season 2 didn’t get there, particularly for Dany, but the incoming threat of the Battle of Blackwater kept it together for most storylines. I believe Season 5 will be the first in a long time to feel this way, with characters starting a particular arc at the start of the season and ending it by the end. Matters of adaptation aside, combining the books is what provides them the opportunity to do this.

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    121. House Pineapple:
      OK, let’s stop freaking out for a moment.

      But that’s what we do best, ser, during the off-season…. 🙂

      Nice writeup, but I feel if something isn’t done about the ironborn storyline in S5, then we should fuggettaboutit and save its nuances for our reading pleasure. As others have suggested upthread, the GoT i.i. will probably be dealt with passively (Yara as principle; maybe some valor yet for Theon ) and their storyline values/trinkets/lores amalgamated into other shit, if at all. I like how you mentioned that Euron is a character gift for HBO…but it doesn’t seem like they will exploit that opportunity, Veltigar’s passion for MadsM notwithstanding.

      Group leech love, anyone?

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    122. At this point there really is little for me to get excited about for season 5. D & D are cutting out all the interesting characters from AFFC and ADWD that I like. And no introducing Euron or Victarion in S6 won’t work, it’ll just feel rushed. Plus they’re ruining Jaime’s arc 🙁

      The show had a good run but True Detective and Fargo now have my attention. Season 1 will always hold a special place in my heart, it was perfect.

      The funny thing is The Walking Dead seems to be getting better while GOT is regressing, D & D dun goofed.

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    123. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I completely agree about the need of balance between “story conservation” of the characters we already have, and the introduction of new exciting material. Let’s not forget that there was a time when the Tyrells, Stannis team, the Boltons… were but secondary characters. The very strength of this show is the ability to turn them into central players and build up the audience interest in all the new storylines along with the former ones.
      So saying “people only want to know what happens to the characters they loved at first” does not make a lot of sense since most of these characters started from scratch at some point… We all cared about Oberyn despite him being in only one season, so I don’t think that’s really an obstacle.

      Mine is the Furry,

      Bang : Theon. Perfect combination of the careless lover you can do anything with without being judged, and secretely wounded boy that you can force-cuddle.
      Marry : Doran. Need I say more ? Smart, incredibly strong, deeply gentle. That’s a catch.
      Kill : Roose. Freaks me out like nothing else. Also, “don’t make me rue the day I raped your mother.” Like… Nope. Nope nope nope nope.

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    124. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Yeah, that was rhetorical. I like freaking out too. My level of anxiety is directly proportional to the length of my posts (which says something about how much I care for the Iron Islands).

      (jentario,

      If we play that with only the Iron uncles, I would have to kill euron and bang Aeron. I don’t care about the crazy priest look, something tells me that dude would be 100% up for a doing-it-in-the-sea-fantasy.)

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    125. Wait. They are going to include the shy maid, but not the Griffs?? Why? Will they have Lemore? I really wanted to see the Tyrion-Lemore dialogue play out on screen.

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    126. I find it amusing how some folks are treating this as new. I also find that drinking excessive amounts make the god damn hammering gnomes inside my head work like a $5 Ho during Happy Hour.

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    127. Fjordgazer,

      I don’t doubt that you’ve stumbled across people who feel that way. The problem is that no matter what forum you frequent on the Internet, there are unlikely to be more than a few hundred or a few thousand people commenting there at the most. That’s an absolutely microscopic fraction of the Game of Thrones audience, and it’s heavily biased towards the sort of active fan who will be inclined to seek out like-minded individuals. Even a generally well-informed and well-intentioned website like this one where a wide variety of opinions are welcomed and discussed rationally can run the risk of becoming an echo chamber if we’re not careful. And even if you peruse many different forums (Westeros.org, Tumblr, Facebook, various entertainment websites like EW, YouTube, etc.), there are an enormous number of people out there who have read the books and/or watch the show, but never discuss it online. We should all enjoy the discourse, but we should never assume that the opinions we encounter online represent a consensus among the show’s fandom as a whole

      I’m just kidding about the Youtube comments, BTW. If you value your sanity, you should never, ever, EVER read YouTube comments.

      Last year, we learned that over 18 million viewers watch this show every week on HBO’s various platforms, which makes it the most popular show in HBO’s history and one of the most popular shows in the world. And that number doesn’t even count the millions of viewers who pirate the show, the millions of viewers who watch it on other other outlets across the world, and the people who are still catching up or will discover it in the future. Sure, some disenchanted viewers may stop watching an tell their Unsullied friends not to watch, and those friends may listen. But I’ve seen people engaging in that kind of activism since Season 2, and both the numbers and acclaim for the show have gone up every single year. At this point, those who are angry enough to stop watching or campaign against the show online represent such a miniscule fraction of the Game of Thrones audience so as to be rendered statistically insignificant. That’s not to say that their opinions are worthless, just that they’re not going to make a dent in the overall numbers or turn the tide of overwhelmingly positive public opinion against the show. Only the show can do that by taking a significant, sustained dip in quality – and that’s not going to happen just because they’re cutting a few relatively minor characters who, as we can see from the diversity of opinions here, are quite polarizing themselves.

      King Tommen,

      This.

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    128. Mine is the Furry,

      I was just biding my time, and thinking this through a bit more, and waiting until I wasn’t so horny that I’d just eliminate “Marry” and “Kill” and go with “Bang, Bang, and Bang.”

      So, ok then:

      Marry: Osha. I mean, really – Wildling ladies, if anything, have your back if you’ve got theirs. Fierce, protective, with no illusions about their role in the world. In short, survivors. Plus, when you marry someone, you also get to bang them. And let’s be honest – there’s no way Osha doesn’t know her way around when in the sack.

      Bang: Brienne. Someone’s gonna climb that tree, and it’s gonna be me.

      Kill: Catelyn Stark. I mean, bad decision after bad decision. Nice person, good mother, long as she stays in Winterfell. Kidnaps the son of the most powerful man in the Kingdom on a whim, though? Sorry, but that’s a problem to be taken care of as soon as possible.

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    129. Al Swearengen,

      The Walking Dead getting better? lol

      The Walking Dead is a whole nother league of suck (okay, I’ll be fair, mediocre fun), and I can also assure you that if you read the comics you’d hate it much much more than you hate GOT. TWD is a pretty loose adaption, with more changes than GOT ever had.

      And these changes that GOT makes don’t really make it better or worse- that can only be determined when the show airs. Hell, season 5 might be the absolute worst and you would be right, but I think it’s way way early to decide. Season 5 could also be the best, but only if you have an open mind.

      Also, True Detective is meh IMO, I honestly can’t believe the reaction to it. It was carried by Mcconifgcwyvsr’s performance and Rust’s writing (which were mostly plagerized from some book). Otherwise, it was a typical crime drama that took itself way too seriously and had the most disappointing villain ever. Hopefully season 2 of that will be better.

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    130. Renly’s Peach,
      CT Wahoo,
      Luka Nieto,

      Wow everyone, I’m actually being comforted by everyone and their ideas instead of worrying so much. Thanks everyone! This isn’t the first time.

      {spoiler] As some have suggested a couple of quick scenes really could do wonders. I don’t need a Baleron death onscreen – yup, that banana-peel description is spot on. I don’t need a Kingsmoot – sometimes I picture the horrible Pirates of the Caribbean pirate party… yeah don’t need to see that again. Some people seem to want want a Master and Commander movie with ship battles and pillaging and all the characters from the book… they picked Dorne. I like Greyjoys more than the Martells… but I woulda picked Dorne too. They’re prettier on screen, the Queenmaker plot is more important than the Queensmoot – and what main character that people really care about could have gone to the Kingsmoot realistically, like Jaime to Dorne to tie things together?

      A scene where Asha gets captured by Stannis… and she givers a haughty “I’m the Queen of the Iron Islands” speech. Or Asha doesn’t know, get’s captured… and Mel tells her, as if Beleron has been dead for an indeterminate time in the show. Just give me a couple of Asha scenes (that will help flesh out Stannis and Mel, so not even any exclusive scenes) Maybe a reference to Baleron’s assassination at the House of B&W… wow , I’m back on track! [/spoiler}

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    131. jentario,

      The first two TWD episodes of season 5 have been better than the majority of GOT’s S4 episodes.

      The changes to Jaime’s arc are worse, believe me the character is going to be completely ruined. Fighting Sand Snakes smh D & D have lost the plot.

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    132. Al Swearengen,

      I agree that the early Dorne stuff sounds worrying, but I’m hoping Doran and Jaime can salvage it. And the first two TWD episodes are only good by TWD standards. I’m sure you would have loved every minute of GOT season 4 if you were Unsullied (which you are in TWD). There really is no comparison.

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    133. jentario,

      Being a book walker really has nothing to do with it. D & D’s writing skills really aren’t that exemplary. 90% of the stand out moments and best lines from the show come from George’s work. They’re above average writers who struck oil with ASOIF. The fan fiction stuff D & D have introduced into the show has been pretty poor, I still can’t get over Asha’s preposterous attempt to break Theon out of the Dreadfort, it was so abysmally bad.

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    134. Al Swearengen,

      It’s so funny that, when discussing invented scenes written by D&D, all you people talk about is Yara’s attack on the Dreadfort (which, by the way, D&D may have devised in concept, but it was written by Bryan Cogman), or other similarly clunky additions; but you completely forget that some of the most critically celebrated scenes in the history of the show are invented moments between non-POV characters. Robert & Cersei; Robert, Barristan & Jaime; any scene —in fact the whole rivalry— between Varys and Littlefinger; most of Olenna’s scenes; Arya and Tywin; and I could go on and on. Whether you personally like these scenes or not, the fact is that they were critically celebrated by the press and many fans, plenty of whom were book readers. But yeah, I’m sure D&D are complete hacks.

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    135. jentario:
      Also, True Detective is meh IMO, I honestly can’t believe the reaction to it. It was carried by Mcconifgcwyvsr’s performance and Rust’s writing (which were mostly plagerized from some book).

      TD S1 was an original work that referenced the philosophy of Thomas Ligotti and paid homage to a piece by Alan Moore. TD’s author, Nic Pizzolatto, has never denied that he used their works as inspiration for the Rust character. Characters in every work are amalgamations of previous ideas nurtured in an author’s mind. We are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Are we also going to discredit Quentin Tarantino for ripping off Kung-Fu movies? Tolkien for ripping off Wagner? Come on….TD was excellent entertainment, with phenomenal directing, and Rust was a great character. The plagiarism accusation was an easy diversion for simple minds before the Emmys.

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    136. Andrew: Can I just say for the record that I think Isaac Hempstead Wright is, if not lying, giving deliberately misleading answers to the Bran question?

      I seem to recall a lot of Doctor Who fans insisting the same about Matt Smith lying about not regenerating in the 50th (he wasn’t) and all of the former Doctor Who actors lying about not being in the 50th (they weren’t). If Hempstead Wright says that he’s in the season, then he’s in the season.

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    137. Luka Nieto,

      Don’t attempt to use Cogman as an escape goat for that scene, you know damn well D & D have the final say and map out the whole season before hand. They planted the inception of that idea in his head.

      And the only interesting fan fiction stuff all happened in season 1. I have yet to see D & D equal the calibre of the Tywin skinning scene, they have regressed over the seasons.

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    138. Lord Hugh Ryvenholt: I just can’t understand, D&D being such fans of the books and do something like this,

      They are fans of the stories. Being a fan of the story does not necessarily mean being a fan of all of the narrative and plot details. One of the problems with Crows in particular is that there are a lot of plot lines that contribute very little to the stories because they do not include principle protagonists. (Martin isn’t Tolkien: he relies entirely on protagonists to drive his stories.)

      I find it amusing to see the “Dorne was worse” “No, the Iron Islands were worse!” arguments resurfacing: those were pretty big back in 2005 after Crows came out. The “why can’t we all get along” view among the fans was that both were pretty bad. Now, fans are only a fraction of the readers, and readers are only a fraction of the TV audience: but it seemed that the problem that even fans had was that the plot-lines lacking major protagonists felt somehow lacking. This is key: fans are much more tolerant of story less plot for the sake of plot than are readers or (especially!) viewers.

      Now, D&D have partially rectified the Dorne situation by transplanting established characters into it. You don’t need the Riverlands to tell Jaime’s contribution to the story: you need Jaime to:

      try and fail to be Tywin II due to the fact he’s accidentally grown a conscience

      .

      The Iron Islands were a much bigger challenge than Drone: what established protagonist could you transpose there and then communicate his/her story by trying to be someone she really wasn’t or trying to elevate him/herself to a higher level? Boosting Yara to a protagonist (as Martin did with Asha) would be a bad idea: the show has too many protagonists as it is. The single best thing to do with Yara would be to:

      have her take over Victarion’s nearly storyless plotline.

      (In the interest of full disclosure, I actually greatly preferred the Iron Island segment to the Dorne segment, if only because Asha was at least an established character, and it was easier to follow her contribution to the story; however, I definitely fell in with the “Dorne was worse, but the Iron Islands were still bad” camp.)

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    139. Al Swearengen,

      Oh jeez. I thought many fans and the press had found all of that “fan fiction stuff” I mentioned interesting, but I must have been wrong. I must have imagined all the positive comments about pairing Arya with Tywin, or the many characters who are developed much more in the show than in the books. I’ll reassess my opinion immediately to your objective standard. Phew. Glad I corrected that. I wouldn’t want to be wrong about a subjective piece of art —wait a sec…

      Wimsey,

      Completely agree. I’d like to elaborate on the Jaime thing: Jaime needs to try and fail at being Tywin (“Tyrion’s Tywin’s son, not you”); to not physically be at King’s Landing when all goes to shit for Cersei; and to refuse her from a distance. Honestly, in ADWD he considers going to Myrcella and telling her he’s her father, and in general he thinks much more warmly about his children in AFFC/ADWD than previously. Anyway, Jaime can do all of that wherever, including Dorne —no, especially Dorne, since putting a main character in a completely new storyline is a great idea, or else it could feel like a forced inclusion —especially by the fifth year of a seven or eight year show, when apparently all the pieces have already been set. Honestly, it’s not even completely off-canon: Jaime basically takes the role of Balon Swann, in the sense that he’s a kinsgsguard sent by Cersei to save Myrcella from Dorne, except he’s a main character so the role is expanded.

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    140. Al Swearengen,

      Arya and Tywin had a bunch of great scenes in season 2, Cat’s scene about Jon in season 3, the Hizdahr scene in season 4, the White Walker baby making scene, Jaime trying to manipulate Tywin into helping Tyrion and realizing it’s Tywin manipulating him… And that’s off the top of my head. I’m sure I can come up with more.

      EDIT: Brienne vs the Hound is largely loved too

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    141. Luka Nieto: Whether you personally like these scenes or not, the fact is that they were critically celebrated by the press and many fans, plenty of whom were book readers. But yeah, I’m sure D&D are complete hacks.

      Heh, one must understand that FanBoys will always believe that adaptations are not just hated by themselves, but by EVERYONE!!!! Many Harry Potter fans will insist (despite all evidence to the contrary) that the first two Harry Potter films were much more popular than the subsequent ones. Many Tolkien fans will insist that the Lord of the Rings movies actually were not that popular.

      Here is the analogy that I often use but that still works. A good book is like a Great White Shark. Adapting a book to movie or TV is like adapting a marine animal for terrestrial life: a lot of things that are needed to work in the marine realm are irrelevant or even counter-productive on land, and you need things on land that are irrelevant or counter-productive in the sea. The goal of D&D (or Peter Jackson or David Heyman) is not to toss a shark onto land and watch it rot. Instead, the goal is to make a Tyrannosaurus rex out of it. Fins, gills, etc., have got to go; legs, lungs, etc., are not “inventions” but replacements for things that worked in one medium but not in another. Things like the feathers on a T. rex might seem gratuitous: but that is something that comes with the new medium. If you communicate a top-level predator with excellent senses of smell and vision that can rapidly traverse great distances in order to hunt, then you’ve told the same story.

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    142. jentario,

      Sure, here’s more:

      Tormund and Jon’s “She loved you…all she talked about was killing you” scene.

      Sansa’s “I know what you want.”

      Lady Olenna fondling Marge’s necklace.

      Tywin and Tommen at Joff’s grave.

      Theon burning the letter.

      Cat Stark’s story of Jon Snow getting the pox.

      The dying farmer.

      The Hound and Brienne.

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    143. I agree that when D&D follow the books the scenes are a lot better. I dislike all the added scenes because they kind of take you out of the world and remind you its a tv show. Season 4 really went crazy with added scenes for no real reason. Arya shows up at the bloody gate and then they just let her go with no questions asked? Crasters keep, dreadfort, greyworm and missandei, etc. Season 1 was extremely faithful to the books and it is what got me hooked on the show and made me read the books and then season 2 came up with the stolen dragons house of the undying king of qarth bs. If game of thrones doesnt want to follow the books anymore then i wish it didnt start out so faithful i prefer the adaptation of walkin dead compared to the comics because it just seems to work as two parallel worlds or something but game of thrones is just becoming frustrating.

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    144. jentario,

      Nope, still waiting for a scene that was even half as good as Tywin’s scene with Jaime in S1.

      The baby making scene visually was stunning. You can’t really credit D & D there since there was virtually no dialogue and the look of the Wights are all down to George’s creation.

      Hound vs. Brienne was alright. I got a kick out of seeing Sandor kick her in the snatch lel.

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    145. jentario,

      If D & D were talented enough writers they’d at least be able to consistently deliver scenes that were in the same ball park. Their work from S2-S4 tells me they got lucky.

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    146. 🙁 My krakens :,-( I’ll miss you :,,-(

      Dornish plot/Martells <<<<<<< Ironborn plot/Greyjoys (at least IMO)

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    147. Luka Nieto:
      jentario,

      I fully expect Season 5 to suffer as an adaptation of the books. Each season has been less faithful than the last, but the truth is that the ASOS split into Season 3 and Season 4 allowed them to have most of the book in there, and that won’t happen in Season 5. For many, it will fail as an adaptation.

      However, I have high hopes for this incoming season as a television show on its own terms, which is what the show is for most people —and I do mean most, as in almost everyone.

      Well said! S5 will prove to be the tipping point for many of the Sullied. I agree that it may fail as an adaptation (of the books for some) but not as a show.

      I’m not wild about the changes that are being made and the characters/story lines that are being omitted. However, none of that will cause me to stop watching GOT. It is high quality production on many levels and still better than much of what it currently on TV.

      I will have to completely change my viewing perspective in S5. It will no longer be the books that I read and loved…and that will have to be acceptable. It will be a different experience. Presumably, these changes/omissions are moving us toward the end game of the story. (And who knows – this may be the only “end” that we get if GRRM doesn’t finish.)

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    148. Luka Nieto,

      Well said! I agree with all of your points here. Personally, I have extremely high hopes for Season 5 as a season of television, and I believe that when Game of Thrones has ended its run in three years, it will fit in very well as part of an adaptation of ASOIAF as a whole. However, there’s no question that when judged against a strict standard where fidelity to the novel is all that matters, many people are going to condemn Season 5 (and probably Seasons 6 and 7 as well) harshly and unequivocally. That’s fine – everyone is entitled to their own opinion – I just know that I’m going to find it immensely frustrating to wade through the comment sections on the Season 5 recaps every week. But that’s a personal issue, and trivial in the grand scheme of things. I have every confidence that the end product is going to be well worth it.

      Wimsey,

      That’s an exceptionally astute and visually memorable analogy. I never thought of the adaptive process in that exact way before, but I certainly will now! 🙂

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    149. Boby,

      Plot driven greyjoy storyline? I read the first three books and there was never any mentions of a magic dragon horn used by the Targaryens to control the beasts. Out of nowhere a creepy pirate dude who sounds like the cliche guy you don’t trust turns up with a magic horn and gives it to his idiot brother to get rid of him so he can be a king in the iron islands. The other dumbest part of their story is how the cliche dumb viking brute happily accepts to go catch a dragon and claim the queen as his own. Most smart readers know the greyjoy storyline was just shoe horned in the books so Dany would have boats to get her army back to westeros.

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    150. I for one welcome all of this… if only so I don’t have to listen to book-reader friends tell people how much they are looking forward to something they can’t talk about, with a smug smile on their faces.

      Welcome to reality, everyone. Game of Thrones adapted three novels, used parts of a fourth and fifth, and then finally got to stand on its own. We were never, and I mean NEVER, going to see a completely faithful adaptation of ASOIAF because (a) there is no hope of George finishing the next book in the next 12 months, (b) forget the seventh novel appearing any time soon and (c) this is television. You can’t bench your actors, as the article writer stated. No, this is where GOT has to go, and is going to go – to wrap things up in much the same way as the novels eventually *might*, but in their own way. George R.R. Martin sold them the rights to adapt his books, and that’s what they’ve done – because there are only 5 books to date.

      Personally, I have my reasons for thinking we’ll see LS at the end of this season (there was no reason for the Beric-Thoros scenes in season 3 except to convey the death-rebirth angle, and I think we’ll be seeing scenes in the Riverlands this year with Brienne) and probably some Iron Islands stuff in season 6 – but only to tie up loose ends. The producers of GOT have already proven they’re willing to shift things around, and bring characters back as needed (Allister Thorne, Lysa Arryn, Mance Rayder – and Jaqen H’gar this coming year).

      This is my favorite show. I trust the producers to know what they’re doing. GRRM gave them a fantastic world to play in and a lot of memorable story – but he’s not the only one who can tell that story, and GRRM has given them all the tools they need to build on it.

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    151. This topic and the posts within have become a mockery of itself and is in dire need of a colonic.

      If you haven’t heard the “new” Bonnie ‘Prince’ Billy album, I seriously recommend it. Sure it has reworkings of songs from his last album, but the fact that this guy can create cover versions of his own songs as stunning as the original versions is a true testament that he is one of the greatest songwriters of this generation.

      And that, my fellow GoT nerds, is probably the best advice/comment in this whole thread.

      In honor of Ros’ Merkin (who avoids this site due to all the book/show spoilers used freely in the comments), yes, I do spell narcissism as Adonis.

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    152. Cameryn,

      All of this. People who guessed there was no way the show would stay faithful after it heads into AFFC and ADWD were absolutely right. It’s a fucking miracle that they survived the first three books without straying too far.

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    153. Cumsprite,

      TYPO SHAMING?! It would be easier if you just skipped my posts altogether, Mr. Sprite on every site we bump into LOL. My typos have been my constant companions these last __ years. They won’t just go away, you know.

      Luka Nieto:
      Al Swearengen,

      Whether you personally like these scenes or not, the fact is that they were critically celebrated by the press and many fans, plenty of whom were book readers. But yeah, I’m sure D&D are complete hacks.

      I must have missed it (obviously) where Al suggested or otherwise outright called Weiss and Benioff “complete hacks” as you seem to imply in your sarcastic comment.

      Could you specify where he typed that upthread? I only see “above average writers” (his exact words) with which I agree since their show only plots/scenes are something of a hit and miss. They got some really good ones, and some horrible shit too. A bit above average on the whole until now.

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    154. Mine is the Furry,

      You look fucking beautiful today, Rygar

      Boby,

      lol at the Greyjoys being plot relevant.
      “I’m Victarion, a ship delivery man. I killed my wife after she screwed around and frequently use a dusky woman as a blowup doll. I’m definitely not going to die in the first five pages of TWOW!”
      “I’m Aeron Greyjoy! My gracious god has granted me the unmatched ability to bore my enemies to death, and with it I intend to do nothing at all that justifies me being a POV character!”
      “I’m Euron Greyjoy, and I’m an evil pirate. Look, I even have an eyepatch! I’m attacking a region no one gives two shits about, and maybe later I’ll do something important! For now I plan to hang dong in front of my brother.”

      I am truly sorry that you prefer the Iron Islands over Dorne. It seems like there was room for only one of them, and D&D chose the other one. Just FYI, Dorne fans exist- like mwah.

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    155. King Tommen,
      Jared,

      What you say makes sense from D&D’s point of view, i suppose, but i’ve always said that we don’t know what the Unsullied want as much as we’d like to think, because… well, we’re not them, and they’re a fairly varied bunch. Whether they would’ve liked the cut parts better than what they eventually get, will be an unsolved mystery *if* the series starts to flop.

      Mind you, when i say “flop”, i don’t mean “enormous drop in viewership”, but something like what happened to Dexter or True Blood: half the viewers hate-watching, lowering expectations to the minimum and dismal critic response.

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    156. Fjordgazer,

      The Unsullied don’t know what they’re missing, those lucky little bastards. I think the true test of season 5 will be how much THEY like season 5 with their unbiased opinions, not how much book readers hate it.

      I’ll use the Walking Dead example here. The show hasn’t been great since it’s first season (barring the first half of season 3), and that’s the general consensus of people who haven’t read the comic books. GOT has been a non-reader favorite since the start, and I think that trend will continue regardless of the changes. As of season 6, none of us will be book readers anyway- since the book won’t even be out yet (or it would have just gotten published).

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    157. Euron has to be on the show at some point, Victarion I can live without. Also Euron has to be James Purefoy/Mads Mikkelsen or both 🙂 Additionally how in seven hells will seven seasons be enough to cover everything of importance?

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    158. jentario,

      But that’s exactly what i’m saying. S05 will definitely be hated by the book-reading section (despite folks like you, who are biased toward the Dornish, it must be added), and it remains to be seen how the show-only people will receive it. IMO a lot of Greyjoy scenes, as House Pinapple puts it very well, had the potential to be great TV and be much, much better that some of the D&D-invented stuff. Whether the Unsullied will love what they’re shown this season is up in the air.

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    159. Cameryn,

      All the spoiling had to breed a strong sense of resentment among Unsullied, and now that book readers are on a loss about what to expect, it’s time for payback. On our defense, a lot, if not most, of the spoiling trolls were Unsullied themselves.

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    160. For the first time, I have serious issues with this show / D&D. Not “OMG CANCEL THIS RIGHT NOW” kind of problems (because I’m a rational adult), but just confusion and skepticism about how this season will play out as it relates to the endgame of the series. I like Dorne just fine. They’re gonna make it awesome. But the Kingsmoot / Greyjoy Brothers / Victarion and the Iron Fleet sailing on Mereen could make for some excellent television. I’m not interested in people’s convoluted anti-AFFC/ADWD arguments because they’re amazing books with a lot to offer the show.

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    161. Off Topic: Does anyone know what code words will send a comment into moderation and then into the void? I had no links in it. No spam, no advertising different GoT sites either LOL

      I am just curious because this is the third time it happens to me specifically. One time comment showed up by next day. But it would be awesome to know so I can avoid it. I doubt it is directed at user name Strider though. I hope not.

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    162. Ser Bro of Kegstand Keep,

      Budget and screentime and a seven season cap. Something had to go, and it’s easier to cut Victarion along with the naval aspect of the battle of Meereen for budget reasons than to cut Dorne. Other than that, the Iron Islands can be delayed, or if they don’t really have more impact in the story than the Dany related stuff then they don’t need it at all. This story is interesting enough without the extra Ironborn.

      I’m sure you’ll understand that once the initial shock will die down

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    163. Fjordgazer:
      jentario,

      But that’s exactly what i’m saying. S05 will definitely be hated by the book-reading section (despite folks like you, who are biased toward the Dornish, it must be added), and it remains to be seen how the show-only people will receive it. IMO a lot of Greyjoy scenes, as House Pinapple puts it very well, had the potential to be great TV and be much, much better that some of the D&D-invented stuff. Whether the Unsullied will love what they’re shown this season is up in the air.

      Nope. Almost everyone, sullied and not so sullied, loved Oberyn and were given enough info about his family to continue that storyline and make sense of it all.

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    164. Isn’t it truly amazing how many times the word “endgame” has been used in the comments here……even though ASOIAF doesn’t have one yet.

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    165. jentario,

      And i think that, as you give the show too much credit, you’re similarly assuming the show-only watchers are a better subset of people than we are.

      It’s impossible to make a survey on this anyway…

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    166. Thats it!
      I’ve taken enough of this crap.
      If they don’t bring Stoneheart to the show next season, I’ll f****** riot. Riot!!!

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    167. Strider,

      For me, a post always “awaits moderation” when I include 3 or more hyperlinks (which includes external and internal links)….or the word “whitewash”. 🙂

      Sometimes responding to Jentario directly results in chaotic, explosive diarrhea.

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    168. Wimsey,

      Your description of

      Jaime “accidentally growing a conscience” is spot on. I never thought in Jaime’s case “redemption arc” fit him or his storyline. He’s just too complicated for something like that, it seems too simplistic and easy. It’s more like he becomes more self-aware and aware of people and things around him. He reacts to that and has to deal with the consequences of his new decisions as well as his old ones. (I guess maybe Theon fits the redemption arc, but in general the characters are all capable of good and bad.)

      Your shark metaphor was great. Well said.

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    169. didn’t care for the Greyjoy’s uncles to be honest, aside from

      kingsmoot

      the only Greyjoy I care about is yara/asha. Victarion’s chapters were the worst imo.

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    170. I honestly don’t really care about this news. I bet we’ll get some daddy greyjoy and yara scenes, which is good enough for me.

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    171. jentario:
      Fjordgazer,

      The Unsullied don’t know what they’re missing, those lucky little bastards. I think the true test of season 5 will be how much THEY like season 5 with their unbiased opinions, not how much book readers hate it.

      I’ll use the Walking Dead example here. The show hasn’t been great since it’s first season (barring the first half of season 3), and that’s the general consensus of people who haven’t read the comic books. GOT has been a non-reader favorite since the start, and I think that trend will continue regardless of the changes. As of season 6, none of us will be book readers anyway- since the book won’t even be out yet (or it would have just gotten published).

      TWD was never a great show. It was fairly interesting in season 1, drove itself into a ditch in Season 2, had a few moments in Season 3 which it didn’t resolve, then came back to resolve those moments after everyone stopped caring in Season 4. Two compelling characters in the entire show.

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    172. Mine is the Furry: Sex is best when its one on me.

      We could, if you can get Sue or Kenny to return my calls.

      I’ll get working on this. Been emailing them all day to get this taken care of.

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    173. jentario,

      I’m not assuming: some of the platforms i’ve frequented (forums, facebook pages, etc.) have been following the trolls for a while, and a lot of them turned out to be “spoiled” book readers who wanted in turn to share some of their misery.

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    174. This is just a series of short points about some of the criticisms in this thread. I’m not going to go into too much detail because you could probably write a book about it, but, yeah…

      I often laugh at the people who say that D&D are only average writers. Yeah, because GRRM just accepted the first offer that was put to him.
      People often praise people who work on the show (e.g. Cogman, Graves). When they make a mistake e.g. the Dreadfort) it is pretty much D&D’s fault. Can’t really have it both ways.
      Iron Islands are essential to the plot? Really, I don’t know the endgame to the story, D&D do (reverse for Dorne).
      All invented stuff is fanfiction. Maybe, but how does that make it bad, If George had made Bran’s storyline more exciting, and substantial we probably wouldn’t have had Crasters Keep.
      Remember D&D have to take into account budget, Sullied’s understanding and logistis amongst many other things. In a way i think it would help if they wrote a couple fewer episodes, so they would have greater management, but their choice. I respect that.
      The general viewer is more i.mportant than the hardcore fans. Do HBO really care if Sullied are complaining. Not at all if they are getting huge viewing numbers, like £18 million, Even if you lost third of that they would probabky be fine wih it (although obviously they wouldn’t want to). I’m sure D&D want their work to be loved by everyone, but they would also accept the majority, even if the majority are unsullied.

      There is a lot more I was going to say, but the simple fact is haters are going to hate. Let’s just try to be optimisitic, and hope that Season 5 continues to be magnificent as have all previous seasons.

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    175. I am a student,I have some book reading friends but most people I know are show watchers only.They don’t care about the Greyjoys.Like at all.Theon himself was not verry intersting for them until Ramsey was in.Now everyone is a little bit involved in that plot.But noone cares about House Greyjoy.Well,if Balon dies in S5 they can talk about Euron this season,as others said,and have him in S6.If he is important later.If not…

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    176. Ragnar,

      Of course they don’t care for the Greyjoys. D&D seem to work partially under the light of their own personal preferences, and it’s evident they don’t like Stannis or the Greyjoys (except Theon) given their treatment of the characters, which reflects on viewers’ response.

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    177. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Ok, that makes sense then! I was responding to one comment, quoted a user’s post and I was also putting Mr. Sprite in his place for trying to typo shame me. That’s probably two + links.

      Thanks also to Fjordgazer 🙂 (I’m not linking your comment for obvious reasons hah!)

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    178. Fjordgazer,

      I don’t think that’s fair. I mean, they obviously prefer Dorne over the Ironborn, but that doesn’t mean they hate the Greyjoys. They bothered to include them in seasons 3 and 4 when they were no shows in the books (from Theon to Yara to Balon) and that’s gotta mean something. I’m hoping that Yara and Balon will have a few scenes this year as well… And please please please Deepwood Motte.

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    179. Greatjon of Slumber,

      Seriously. The premise is pretty cool, and it’s got the production value, but it always kills me when shows display such terrible, terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE writing and storytelling. The story doesn’t know where it’s actually going so characters become abhorrently inconsistent and totally change their “roles” from season to season, and then also it’s running off this giant engine of blood so it needs to throw a character under the bus to the zombies every now and then, but the characters are so badly developed it’s just an archetyped figure they’ve let die, which they’ll replace with a another similarly characterless figure that takes up that dead character’s “role.” Besides, its floundering long-game storytelling really, really misses dramatic rhythm in plot events. Like Terminus: it’s in the fucking name guys, TERMINUS, dramatic end point, built up all of season 4 as a destination, to be blown up in the premiere of next season, just a chip off yer shoulder Rick. It’s like those two Cartel brothers from Breaking Bad that spent like half of the cold opens in season 3 redundantly building up towards their badassery, and then fucking Hank just kills them in a 2 minute fight and doesn’t even die.

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    180. Dogs,

      I liked the cartel guys from Breaking Bad because it so brilliantly undercut the badassery (Justified is awesome at doing this). But with TWD, I’m with you all the way. The writing is just gawdawful.

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    181. My opinion is better than your opinion. What I say is fact. The Greyjoys blow, except for Euron, he can be on the show. I speak for all unsullied that I know of, they hate all Iron Islanders, except for a few liking Yarasha. All of them were head over heels in love with Oberyn and Ellaria. For many of them, Oberyn was their favorite character. They will love Doran and the Sand Snakes, much more than they would the Greyjoy nuncles. No need to question this, it is true, and that is all that matters.

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    182. Greatjon of Slumber,

      A lot of the criticism for Breaking Bad comes from Tuco’s cousins and Uncle Jack’s gang, but i just don’t get it. When you see the contrast between them and the other rivals of Walt (Gus and ultimately Hank), it’s no wonder that they last the “least”: strike hard, and die fast. It’s what happens with “rabid dog” kind of guys, they’re not afraid of death.

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    183. I would love a spin off show with the Iron Island history , The creation of the Seastone chair, Harrenhall, tensions in the Greyjoy family,euron, the Kraken, etc., it has a BIG potential.

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    184. Fjordgazer,

      We’re in agreement there. We book readers like to make generalizations about what we think that the Unsullied will like and what they’ll hate, but we’re largely basing those assumptions on the reactions of our Unsullied friends and family members, the reactions that we read online from Unsullied critics and viewers, and our own biases about the complexity of certain storylines and viewers’ capacity to handle them. There are a few assumptions that are popular enough to be generalized; for example, characters like Tyrion, Daenerys, and Arya do seem to consistently rank as favorites among the Unsullied even if they’ve worn out their welcome with certain book readers. But obviously there are a wide variety of opinions out there.

      As jentario notes, however, the absence of the Greyjoy uncles (or Arianne and the Griffs for that matter) from Season 5 shouldn’t have any effect on whether or not the Unsullied will enjoy Season 5. What will determine how successful Season 5 is how well the material that will be seen onscreen is presented and executed. Book readers might tell their Unsullied friends ahead of time that Dorne is going to suck because “it isn’t that good in the books” or “they’re changing too much and they left out the best characters”, but the Unsullied might not feel that way. They might think that the Sand Snakes are badass! They might like seeing Jaime trade veiled barbs with Doran! If they don’t, that’s unfortunate, and it probably will affect their opinion on Season 5. But the storyline will be judged on its own merits, and we’ll never know if they would have liked the Ironborn any better.

      Going forward, Benioff and Weiss will be using Martin’s outline for the story as their guide, so at least part of how the next three seasons are received will depend on how satisfying Martin’s endgame is (If a certain percentage of the audience wants Character X to end up on the Iron Throne and Character X doesn’t, then that will obviously affect their opinion of the series. But that won’t be D&D’s fault). For the most part, however, Game of Thrones will have to stand on its own, and I think that it does that remarkably well. I’m confident that Game of Thrones will remain consistently strong until the end.

      As for the examples that you cite, I never watched True Blood (though what I heard, especially towards the end, wasn’t positive). But I think that Dexter had almost the exact opposite problem than the one that Game of Thrones faces. Like Game of Thrones, it was the most popular show on its network by far. Unlike Game of Thrones, however, it had only 2-3 interesting, fully-developed characters and it lacked sufficient material to cover 7-8 seasons … only it kept getting renewed for financial reasons (it also changed showrunners several times, leading to inconsistencies in creative vision). By the end, both the writers and the cast members seemed almost tired of it, and oh boy did it show. I remember trying to be kind and reserved during the final season, and even in the immediate aftermath the finale, because I didn’t want my opinion to seem reactionary. Time and reflection have not been kind. That final season was indeed wretchedly, unequivocally bad.

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    185. Fjordgazer,

      To be fair (and I don’t believe this in anyway) if D&D are doing things according to their own preferences then that is their perogative. They had GRRM’s and HBO’s blessing (and rights) to do the eries so they can do waht they like. You don’t like?. Well waht was stopping you becoming a professional writer, and adapting the series first.

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    186. Jeb,

      I never said it wasn’t their prerogative. In fact i’ve stated that people shouldn’t curse the guys’ mothers and wish them death. That’s why i said “me and my subjectivity want you to go fuck off, D&D!”. I and only I am responsible for my own discontent.

      Jared, good points all those.

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    187. Fjordgazer,

      Greyjoys bent over like little bitches when Ned and Robert stormed their castle. They only fight fodder nights and haven’t come into contact with the Clegane brothers or Jaime Lannister.

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    188. Fjordgazer,

      It should be noted that the internet fandom does not comprise the majority of book readers either. What you read online does not necessarily represent sullied opinion. I know a number of people who have read the books and I’m the only one I know who comments on fan sites. None of the book readers I know hate the show for making changes. It’s a very vocal minority that is up in arms.

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    189. WeirwoodTreeHugger,

      Man, the “vocal minority” argument gets old after you see it brought up in any field you’re discussing. If you want to believe that is the case in this subject, fine. But i’m still waiting for an election, in any country, that defeats the odds presented by the “vocal minorities” on the streets and on the polls.

      Not to mention the point I made with Jared about people making assumptions from their rather small pool of friends.

      Cheers all!

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    190. I’ll only miss Euron, even if he is a caricature of a villain. Aeron is the worst and dullest POV ever and as to Victarion, the only thing interesting in his storyline is Moqorro. I’m happy to see them go.
      I’m not a great fan of Dorne either (Arianne and the SS to be precise), the queensmaking failure looked a bit of a waste of book pages but I loved Doran so I very welcome this changes.

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    191. Since this subject has more or less been exhausted (especially since this isn’t really “new” news), I wanted to speculate a bit about the Northern story in S5.

      Since the filming has yet to begin on whatever’s going on at Winterfell, there’s not a whole lot to go on at this point. Here’s a few things that I think will happen (with the caveat that I can choose to alter these theories when more info is revealed):

      1. Stannis marches for Winterfell closer to mid-season and Davos comes with him.

      2. Mance either marches with Stannis or goes ahead secretly like in the books (no glamoring with Rattleshirt though).

      3. A large group of Wildlings march with Stannis (effectively replacing the hill tribes). Tormund may or may not be part of this group (depends on Mance’s location probably) and it will include a diverse array of Wildlings, including Thenns.

      4. Obviously Davos will not go to White Harbor but I believe he will be sent on the “Rickon mission” at the end of this season.

      5. No Deepwood Motte and Yara will not encounter Stannis. She’ll be in Pyke dealing with whatever’s going on with Balon.

      6. The Battle at Winterfell (or at least some kind of protracted portrayal of it) will occur late in the season.

      7. I believe at this point that the Umbers will be the main antagonistic Northern group at Winterfell, not the Manderly’s. It would be great to see the Greatjon (and have a story about why he’s been off-screen this long) but it could just as easily be another Umber that’s there stirring up shit with the Boltons/Freys.

      8. I think we’ll see the Umbers as part of this because it’s a previously established Northern group who are 100% loyal to the Starks. I also think that there is a specific reason that the show went off-book when it sent Rickon/Osha to the Last Hearth. This is probably so someone there can provide the info to Stannis/Davos about Rickon’s whereabouts (he may have moved on to Skaagos or somewhere else but the Umbers would know at least).

      9. In the aftermath of the Battle of Winterfell, Davos will get his new marching orders from Stannis to retrieve Rickon so that he can be installed as the new lord of Winterfell and allow Stannis to garner their forces.

      10. Still have no idea if they’re doing FArya, but even if they do, it will be significantly downplayed.

      11. Still no idea if they’ll have Ramsay write the Pink Letter to involve Jon. It’s always been my assumption that the betrayal by his men can still be done without him getting that letter and reacting. We’ll see.

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    192. Ideally this season they will address Balon dying (spoilers appear to have gone out of the window in this thread) and position Yara/Asha for next season (Kingmoot, as much as it pains me can be cut and she can just discover her father has died and that Euron has taken over). Sprinkle in sightings of an ominous ship with a red hull and how Iron Islanders have been raiding the Reach etc, possibly Balon dying in the presence of a shadowy figure and you’re set for Euron and some Iron Island action in Season 6. Would barely take any time and would create some intrigue for the Euron character and the IRon Islands storyline when/if he/it debuts. Simples.

      Onto a bigger issue this has raised for me. Despite them seemingly cutting and slashing left right and centre, I still can’t see this coming to a satisfying ending in seven seasons. I imagine Oldtown may well be going too.

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    193. Strider,

      When it’s a case of quoting too many people in a post that gets it sent into moderation, I’ve found if I copy my post and repost it, it usually goes through. Then, I go back and delete the original post that’s awaiting moderation. That way my post goes through (’cause everything I have to say is soooooooooooo important 😉 ), and the mods don’t have to deal with fishing it out.

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    194. The fact this has made 300 comments, and is one of thehighest commented articles on this site ever kind of makes me sad, especially as it has just been a vicious cirrcle. I blame this on the lack of filming information to come out since the early Pit photos. Please, we need more filming details, please…

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    195. King Tommen,

      These are pretty good guesses.

      I do think having Osha/Rickon headed towards Last Hearth will make for an easier connection to Stannis.

      As much as I hate to admit it, I agree that the Northern Lords plot will essentially be scrapped and replaced with the Wildlings Stannis takes with him.

      My big question revolves more around Yara. That is, will she just chill out at Pyke and not do much, or will the Deepwood arc and Last Hearth be combined so as to simplify Yara and Rickon getting to Stannis?

      Given D&D’s preference for using already established characters to introduce new ones (read: Jaime in Dorne), I feel like Yara must have more to do than just hang out and argue with Balon until he dies.

      (***Alternatively: Balon could be kept alive just to show that Melisandre has a 2/3 success rate and is capable of misreading the signs. Of course, this is only relevant if we assume R+L=J, that J get’s revived by Melisandre and that she’s wrong about Azor***).

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    196. Now that’s a lot of comments. I was hoping there’d been more news but no matter what’s being discussed it’s lovely to see wotw flourishing like this!

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    197. King Tommen,

      Ms. Robinson’s got no love for Penny, eh? May Ramsay’s fingernail remover forever invade her dreams. May a horde of White Walkers move next door to her. May Drogon’s breath permanently visit her crotch. May Mel find reason to torch her soul. I shall never read her blog again! SHAME!

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    198. Yeah, I never quite got the Penny hate. I found her innocence quite refreshing and cute. That said, I’m not crying about her omission from the show.

      As for the Iron Islands stuff… I won’t miss the Kingsmoot, Aeron, or even Victarion.
      I do hope Euron may appear somewhere down the line, as I thought he was a cool character, but if he doesn’t appear… oh well… 🙁
      To be honest, I mainly just want to see closure on that final leech.

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    199. The reason I think most people who read the books won’t freak out about the changes is that most people read the books once, maybe twice and don’t even remember every single detail. Not everyone is a huge fan who analyzes everything in the books and everything in the show.

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    200. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      I’m sure your beloved brother Jaime failed geography as well with maester Volarik (the one who used to “touch” him). In fact, according to Tywin, he’s dyslexic.

      At least show-canon has served me to prove a point this time 😀

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    201. King Tommen,

      I’m not familiar with her, but is she one of those infamous podcasters who count show-Shae as one of her very favorite characters that i’ve heard about?

      It’s one opinion man. Like yours, like mine.

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    202. King Tommen,

      Amazing post. Agree on all account. Despite what she says, she’s sometimes been nit-picky about changes in her podcast, and even she can see the potential of these changes and omissions. Kinda proud of her.

      Fjordgazer,

      You’re the king of arriving at definite conclusions based on absolutely ridiculous assumptions that you don’t even bother to check or back up in any way whatsoever, aren’t you? For your information, Joana doesn’t like Shae at all. Your assumptions about women in these comments are starting to create an appalling pattern. You basically said that the reason jentario likes Dorne more than the Iron Islands is because she’s a woman. Yes, I’m sure you that’s logical, since women are, after all, an homogeneous hive-minded group. I point you to this comic, which shows the silly fallacy you were committing.

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    203. Luka Nieto,

      But i’ve been clear that i don’t know anything about her. I’d say i’ll check her out, but i’m kind of full of this discussion (It’s been 2 days), i’ll give this thing a rest until actual news surface again.

      Jentario and Tyrion Pimpslap: those supposed quotes from GRRM have emerged by anonymous commenters on the web who *purportedly* heard them from him. Jenty, you ask for surveys, then I ask for video!

      I see some folks here all too eager to trust certain journalists (their profession isn’t the most ethical these days: they’re known to lie to get ratings, you know) and anonymous people on the internet. Since this is a TV show, fine, but y’all should try to exercise a little more skepticism for other, more important information.

      Cheers again!

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    204. A Victarion without monkeys is no true Victarion. Let’s face it, production could barely withstand Ser Pounce. Give him to the drowned god.

      Kill Victarion.
      Bang Anguy. Banguy.
      Marry Jaime.

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    205. If there’s one thing on which almost everyone who has commented on this can agree, whether we like the Iron Islands plot, or not (and I’m strictly referring to the new characters), we want that bloody 3rd leech to do its thing. Balon needs to die.

      Now, back to the truly pressing issue:

      To bite, or not to bite…

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    206. Honestly, I can’t believe that anyone would find *any* of AFFC or ADWD boring in any way. I found both Dorne and the Iron Islands plots to be riveting, through and through, just as much as any of the other stories. I couldn’t care less if it’s “relevant” to the overall “narrative” or whatever – some of you seem to be far too concerned with just moving pieces, A-to-B, the destination rather than the journey – the characters are fascinating and unique and both offer territory previously unexplored in the series. I particularly enjoyed Aeron in his fanatical austerity and Areo, with his keen perceptive eye. Loved the whole thing through and through, and would gladly say that AFFC is my favourite book in the series thus far!
      Disappointed that Aeron won’t be making an appearance, but ah well. I’m certain it’ll be another amazing season anyway.

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    207. Fjordgazer,

      The Unsullied don’t know what they’re missing, those lucky little bastards. I think the true test of season 5 will be how much THEY like season 5 with their unbiased opinions, not how much book readers hate it.

      I believe it’s the very pinnacle of self-deception to think of the “Unsullied” as anything other than “the VAST multitudes of people watching this series who have not read these books.” Book readers make up a tiny fraction of the viewers of this show.

      And the viewers of this show HAVE spoken. The show is more popular than ever. It gains viewers every season; it’s HBO’s flagship series; it regularly outscores broadcast viewing numbers on Sunday nights; and it’s the most pirated series in the world.

      Truth is truth: whatever D & D are doing, it’s working.

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    208. Cameryn: I believe it’s the very pinnacle of self-deception to think of the “Unsullied” as anything other than “the VAST multitudes of people watching this series who have not read these books.”Book readers make up a tiny fraction of the viewers of this show.

      And the viewers of this show HAVE spoken.The show is more popular than ever.It gains viewers every season; it’s HBO’s flagship series; it regularly outscores broadcast viewing numbers on Sunday nights; and it’s the most pirated series in the world.

      Truth is truth: whatever D & D are doing, it’s working.

      Well said!!

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    209. Joachim,

      People who have read the books have respectable opinions that pertain to the books themselves, and I respect those. But by available evidence you’d think that book readers are somehow carrying with them a secret knowledge that the show is about to fail because the Ironborn are being left out (or any number of things that changed in previous seasons.) The simple fact is that the show works *despite* these issues, and would not be the HBO powerhouse it is today if the producers were making bad choices. This is HBO’s grand jewel, no matter what people think.

      And I’m not disrespecting people’s views about great material in the books, believe me. I get it, and I celebrate people’s deep love for these novels. But we’re about 80 miles beyond the point where this was a straightforward adaptation.

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    210. Cameryn,

      I’m pretty sure your argument will be accused of being a fallacious “appeal to the masses”, arguing that the majority is automatically right —so I’d like to point out that it’s not just “the masses” who have loved every season as much if not more than the previous one. In fact, every season has been more critically praised than the last.

      If you want some rough (and I do mean rough) numbers on that, just look up the show’s Metacritic scores: Season 1 got 79; Season 2, 88; Season 3, 90; and Season 4, 94. I don’t agree that every season has been better than the last (my order from best to worst is 4, 3, 1, 2, although rewatching season 3 might bump it up to the top), but this does mean that the press has been giving an increasingly more positive assessment of the show. I see no reason why this should change for Season 5. I don’t think straying more or less from the source material will have an impact on how the show is widely received. Actually, if you wanted to correlate faithfulness with how well the show is received, it seems that the most faithful the season is the worst reception it receives. But of course, correlation does not actually imply causation, so that’d be silly.

      These cuts give more time to the characters we already know and love, which is not only a matter of “blindly following the wishes of the masses” but also good TV storytelling.

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    211. Cameryn,

      You copied me. What the actual fuck?

      Anyway, I’d like to add that the show has a really high metascore and IMDB score in both critic and user votes so it really isn’t comparable to shows like TWD. People really like it, much more than your standard show.

      So what D&D is doing isn’t just successful, it’s good- and that’s fact, not opinion (because isn’t fact just a summation of all the opinions in the world?).

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    212. Luka Nieto,

      Totally agree, Luka.

      More often than not, complaints about the series are content complaints, not technical ones, and content complaints are entirely about what is part of the story versus what isn’t.

      The earlier comment that Fjordgazer made about how non-readers don’t know what they’re missing is absolutely true. Non-readers do not know what has been omitted.

      I’m simply saying that that fact is also irrelevant. Game of Thrones is Game of Thrones. Whatever it might be is less important that what actually IS… and what IS, is a damn wonderful show. 🙂

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    213. Think the number of comments shows just how much the Iron Islands elicits emotions in people and that in itself should be cause for considering their inclusion.
      Anyway to the more important stuff.

      Marry – Val. Who wouldn’t want to tame their own beautiful wildling princess?!

      Fuck – Margaery Tyrell. Would have married her but welll…we know what happens to her husbands! Cersei would be pretty interesting too.

      Kill – Anyone with the second name Tully…except Blackfish if I was that way inclined…as I think he is.

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    214. I haven’t read every comment in the thread, but here’s to hoping the Iron Islands storyline will be present in some capacity in S6. I don’t think it’s implausible that it could be the “Dorne” of S6.

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    215. TheTouchOfFrost:
      Think the number of comments shows just how much the Iron Islands elicits emotions in people and that in itself should be cause for considering their inclusion.Anyway to the more important stuff.

      Not to take away from a rousing game of marry-fuck-kill here… but this is less “the Iron Islands aren’t in Season 5” and more another rousing verse of “D&D have changed/omitted the XYZ book plot/character”. Every time they make a change, you’d think they shot someone’s dog.

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    216. Kyle,

      Despite my defense of cutting the AFFC / ADWD Iron Islands plot in Season 5, I agree that we might get a extremely boiled-down version of it early in Season 6, directly followed by whatever these characters will do in TWOW. By the time Season 5 ends, we should know if they are going to introduce Yara’s uncles or not; if Euron is not even mentioned and if Yara and Balon roughly take the roles of Balon’s brothers in Season 5, well, we’ll know that they are definitely gone. Similarly, if they are going to be in Season 6, there’ll have to be some setup. So, at any rate, by June next year, and maybe even earlier, we’ll know what’s up with the Iron Islands in Season 6.

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    217. Greenjones,

      The only reason I’m commenting now is to increase the total in the hope it gets to 400.

      Cameryn,
      Also, the number of comments often depends on how much news there is. It is been a little quiet the last two or three days, and there hasn’t been any news since this was posted. Once a new article is posted, the number of people commenting on older articles decreases. At one point it looked like this one might only just get to 100, and then exploded, but partly because there hasn’t been any more news since. Besides in this thread there has been a lot of to=ing and fro-ing from quite a few of the same people (which is fine, but it does contribute).

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    218. Cameryn,

      Who could deny that whatever D&D are doing is working? Heck, i was an Unsullied first (but not foremost, that’s evident). Yet it remains to be seen whether they keep it up, we’re not psychics.

      Also, the Sullied portion of the viewership being tiny… well, tiny is sort of a strong word. We’re the minority by a large margin, of course. But like i said, Unsullied are morphing into Sullied too (they’re getting their own pair of balls, so to speak), you can’t discount that. Some of this subset will be happy with the changes, some (like me) won’t. Also, what % of the Unsullied viewers actually buys GoT merchandise and DVD’s, and/or subscribes to HBO instead of pirating, and what % of the Sullied viewers do those same things? That would be an interesting survey to take. Jentario, demand it!

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    219. Cameryn,

      Don’t think it’s a bad thing that people care about the direction the show is going in. Personally, I want people who haven’t read the books to enjoy them through another means. In that, I want as many aspects of the books as possible to be represented and represented as accurately as possible. This is a biggy. Other plots have been trimmed down or changed slightly but this is flat out writing characters out so it will elicit a lot of response. The Iron Islands does have a lot of followers. It’s an interesting part of Westeros and it’s a shame that it’s brutal , aggerssive, if you want it to be yours then take it culture isn’t in this season to contrast with the politically correct Dorne.

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    220. Bang – Taena of course. Myrish MUTHA F****N Swamp! Yes, thank you

      Marry – The dusky woman because she cannot speak

      Kill – Daenerys. I know emelia is smokin hot but the only cool about daenerys is her dragons. She definately has some dragon tendancies (not burnt by fire) so what does she do with that power? Chain her dragons and sit in a pyramid while her families land is raped and pillaged

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    221. Jeb:
      Greenjones,

      The only reason I’m commenting now is to increase the total in the hope it gets to 400.

      Cameryn,
      Also, the number of comments often depends on how much news there is. It is been a little quiet the last two or three days, and there hasn’t been any news since this was posted. Once a new article is posted, the number of people commenting on older articles decreases. At one point it looked like this one might only just get to 100, and then exploded, but partly because there hasn’t been any more news since. Besides in this thread there has been a lot of to=ing and fro-ing from quite a few of the same people (which is fine, but it does contribute).

      Well, one thing is for sure: There won’t be any article on WiC.net which generates 300+ comments.

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    222. I think the problem people have is when others accuse D&D of being hacks, and not caring about the books, That is fundamentally wrong. They have (so far, at least) done a pretty incredible job for a series of books the author describes as unfilmable. You might not like some of the decisions they are making (which is fine and inenvitable), but reasoned discussion should be encouraged rather than insulting two writers who have done an amazing job and are trying their best. Luckily almost all of the discussion on WOTW is this sort of positive discussion, but for the very small minority who do criticise D&D so much I recommend following some of the other people who are criticising and try and be reasonable about your criticisms,

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    223. To suggest that no new characters will be brought into season 6 or 7 is stupid. D&D probably meant not to the scale of 10-30 which has been happening in almost every season. They could definitely introduce a couple, minor or major. Howland Reed still has to appear!

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    224. I know it’s the “cool,” hipstery thing to hate on everything and be cool by claiming everything else is uncool, but seriously, do some of you even like these books? I like Dorne a whole heck of a lot less than the Iron Islands but I still think Dorne is cool. & I know it’s going to be on HBO TV because paying Sand Snaks to show their tits is cheaper than VFX fleets of ships.

      & Yes, the overall quality of GoT took a noticeable dip last season. Ratings only mean so much. Lots of popular things are horrible (eg. McDonalds, pop music). D&D are not as good of writers as GRRM. The beetle smashing monologue that last 27 min. was THE WORST (ok maybe Dreadfort raid was worse).

      & yes, strangley enough, The Walking Dead has gotten better. This season is much improved so far, w/ a tone closer to the comics. Imagine that?! Staying true to the essence of the source material can be beneficial. It’s why Marvel movies about their characters are good while Sony Spiderman & Fox Xmen suck.

      I’ll feed you all to the sea!!! 😉

      What’s Dead May Never Die

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    225. arden,

      Oddly enough, the Frey desertion was never mentioned in the show, was it? Didn’t one of the writers go on a website and say it happened between seasons 2 and 3?
      There was no point in introducing the Brotherhood and Beric again, unless they were a precursor to LS. That looks like a plot cut off. It’s possible, unless the Iron Islands Kingsmoot is a season 6 plot, that either Balon doesn’t die on the show or he dies offscreen and they just leave Yara in charge and omit Euron and Victorian. I don’t expect D&D’s ending of the show to mirror GRRM’s. Especially since D&D’s ending will come first. They may know how GRRM plans on ending it but that doesn’t mean that’s what they will do.

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    226. Joachim,

      It’s not that we just want to move from point A to point B, it’s that we are trying to view this through the TV show’s perspective. I have said before that I would be happy if all of the main characters from the books were included, but I realize that is just not possible for a TV show with a budget and a limited time to tell the story, as well as a deadline to produce. If D&D had $150-$200 million dollars per season,13 episodes, and 2 years between seasons, I guarantee the Greyjoy storyline would be in, as well as “Aegon”(which is a much greater loss than the Greyjoys).

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    227. So all that effort they put into Yara just goes out the window.

      Nothing happens with the Dornish in the books! Bollocks!

        Quote  Reply

    228. Euron’s Blue Lips,

      Agree with everything you said here and will add my 2 coppers

      I am looking forward to sand snake tits

      Naval battles will surely come at some point on a small scale. Hell if Black Sails can afford to do some impressive visual stuff at sea on Starz, why the hell wouldn’t HBO?

      First 2 episodes of Walking Dead this season have been great entertainment. I haven’t read the graphic novels for Walking Dead nor do I conduct character studies like with ASOIAF but it was getting a little stale. Last 2 episodes got me re-invested in the show again.

      Beetle smashing and Dreadfort were not good but I feel the Crasters Keep side mission was a waste of screen time even though it was somewhat redeemed by the Gin Alley legend

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    229. Nancy,

      Showing Beric’s resurrection and Mel’s learning of it is greatly important for a much more important character than Cat. I maintain that Cat wasn’t resurrected because the show doesn’t want to make a habit out of it, once it happens with

      Jon.

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    230. Euron’s Blue Lips,

      Speak for yourself. I don’t think Season 4 had a noticeable drop in quality. In fact the only Season where there was a noticeable drop was Season 2 after the sublime (and best) Season 1. Season 4 is probably the second best season, but then it did have some fantastic moment from the books, Metacritic would put Season 4 as the best to date. Besides, would you rather Game of Thrones had two unbelievably good seasons, with low ratings, or 7 very good seasons with high ratings. I know which I would prefer, and the books are always on the shelf if I want something more immersive.

      GRRM is obviously a better writer than D&D, but he is older and more experienced. No one was lauding him that much when he write in TV, so who knows in the future. If GRRM wrote faster, he would have a greater input in the show, I’m sure, but the only person’s fault for this is himself. You can criticise D&D for some of the scenes they have included, but it should be stressed that a lot of GRRM’s work is also not thought to be as divine as some make out (Coinidentally, the two books D&D are now trying to clean up). But it is natural, people make mistakes, however good they are.

      Edit: Rather than making another post I’ll add this…
      Syrio Fo-real,
      I agree with the Dreadfort, but Crasters was almost certainly not a waste as Bran needed something to do other than walking for yet another Season. Perhaps they could have trimmed down Jon’s part, but I never saw it as a great waste of time that some do.

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    231. Tyrion Pimpslap,

      “Aegon” is not greater than Greyjoys… We met the Iron Islands since aCoK, and barely met “Aegon” in aDwD. Even in the TV show, we saw the ironborn raise since S2… so, the Ironbonr storyline is a greater lost than “Aegon”.

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    232. Nancy:
      Oddly enough, the Frey desertion was never mentioned in the show, was it? Didn’t one of the writers go on a website and say it happened between seasons 2 and 3?

      Thanks…I finally understand arden’s point. Your second question/observation ^ is hilarious. Maybe that is an actual show tactic? 🙂

      Btw, we did see Frey goofball #1 and Frey goofball #2 meet with Robb in early S3 and be entrusted with the marriage proposal message for Walder. I guess that was after the desertion (Karstark aftermath?) and his msg turned out to be a fatally flawed olive branch.

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    233. StandOzone,

      ‘Aegon’ is an extension of Varys and Illyrio. Varys has been the most mysterious character since the first book. ‘Aegon’ is a Blackfyre, and not the son of Rhaegar. ‘Aegon’ will be king, unlike any of the Greyjoys. His existence will lead to another Dance of the Dragons/Blackfyre uprising. That is much more interesting than the ironborn.

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    234. Tyrion Pimpslap:
      StandOzone,

      ‘Aegon’ is an extension of Varys and Illyrio. Varys has been the most mysterious character since the first book. ‘Aegon’ is a Blackfyre, and not the son of Rhaegar. ‘Aegon’ will be king, unlike any of the Greyjoys. His existence will lead to another Dance of the Dragons/Blackfyre uprising.That is much more interesting than the ironborn.

      To be fair, both storylines are great. And it’s a shame that they’re skipping them so as to have Dany breeze onto Westeros like a leaf when the time comes.

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    235. The Greeks were absent from season 3 and 4 of The Wire, only to return for season 5 (the last season). Why can’t the same thing happen with the Greyjoys? No way that D&D would leave that plotline hanging completely, particularly as there’s still one more leech to account for.

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    236. OT: According to his twitter, Nicholas Boulton has been cast in GoT and is filming in Sevilla and Osuna:

      https://twitter.com/EmCeeHammock

      Heading home from Georgia 6 days early: Boo! Off to Seville to film Game Of Thrones: Hooray!

      We are all firmly of the opinion that this is the best supporting crowd ever in the whole history of supporting crowds. Ever. #Osuna #GoT

      http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0099610/

      For the video game geeks among us: He was Hawke’s male voice in Dragon age II

      Probably just a small part, maybe a master or a slave in Meereen…

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    237. Turncloak,

      I had always assumed it was for the carnage at Daznak’s Pit, but 600 seems too much for that, as much of the crowd will be CGI. The battle at the Wall had 400, if I remember correctly.

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    238. Turncloak,

      They are talking about what’s already been and being filmed at Daznak’s Pit. Calling it a “battle” is a simple misunderstanding.

      Jared,

      A reference to his role in Dragon Age II, I imagine.

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    239. Tyrion Pimpslap: I maintain that Cat wasn’t resurrected because the show doesn’t want to make a habit out of it, once it happens with

      The bigger issue is that they shouldn’t bring her back until right before she’s going to be used. IF “UnCat” turns out to be important in WoW (= Season 6), then they should have her appear at the end of Season 5. However, it would have required a major rewrite to make her relevant in Season 5 given her absence from FfC & DwD.

      People also should look at the Harry Potter movies for historical precedence. Every character that was cut was bemoaned by fans who were certain that, say, Ludo Bagman was going to be very important in the final book. However, all of the cut characters proved to be irrelevant in the larger plot. Every character that didn’t appear in Book X was lamented because the audiences certainly wouldn’t “know” them in Book X+1. However, when they introduce Cedric or Cho or Bellatrix, movie audiences had no problems figuring out what was up.

      Now, Rowling worked a lot with Stephen Kloves and David Heymen; however, Martin has worked even more with Weiss & Benioff. People need to reverse their models: if the show is cutting it, then they need to abandon the idea that the thing is going to be important later.

      (This should really tell us that Dorne is going to be important: they might be cutting the Dorne Storyline, but they are keeping the Dorne plot line; they probably need the viewers to know about it for Seasons 6 and 7.)

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    240. Turncloak,

      EW says “key battle”, then says “large-scale fighting sequence”. I still think it is the Daznak’s Pit. It would be overload to have the Daznak’s Pit, The Winterfell Battle, the Battle of Meereen in 2 eps. Unless they want overload.

      I think it’s Daznak’s Pit.

      http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/23/game-of-thrones-spain-mania/

      Insane that 86,000 people applied for the casting call of 600. I was absolutely sure they put an extra 0 there. Apparently not.

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    241. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Hodor’s Bastard: Since Griffs are MIA, maybe Dorne is attacking Storm’s End, Griffin’s Roost, and Stormlands?

      Or that will start in Season 6. Really, the only purpose the Griffs serve in Season 5 (

      besides titillating those of us who have been expecting Aegon Jr. to return since about 1997

      ) was having Tyrion begin his rebound by figuring out on his own who’s company he is keeping. They can do that otherwise.

      Indeed, the two Connington chapters in Dragons really felt like a trailer for Winter. I mean, I see how they fit the story (

      he is the Griffin returned in the end

      ), but it was setting up major plot threads rather than wrapping them up.

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    242. C’mon people. Every opinion here is just an opinion. Saying this character/plot line is better than that character/plotline as if it is fact/obvious/survey tested belief of the majority of fans just makes you sound like a chose. As an iron borne follower of the drowned God im used to many folks not understanding my culture or religion. It just makes me appreciate more those who feel the same as I, but telling someone their opinion is inferior to your opinion never won anybody aught but contempt.

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    243. Wimsey:

      if the show is cutting it, then they need to abandon the idea that the thing is going to be important later.

      (This should really tell us that Dorne is going to be important: they might be cutting the Dorne Storyline, but they are keeping the Dorne plot line; they probably need the viewers to know about it for Seasons 6 and 7.)

      Didn’t you hear? The decision to include Dorne over the Iron Islands this season was because it’s cheaper to film Sand Snake tits than it is to do VFX fleets. 😉

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    244. Dolorous Ned,

      Interesting find. Could just be a small part but he does have quite an impressive resume for an extra. His bio also notes that he is “a highly skilled horseman and swordsman.” Also his Twitter has a reference to being a “dragon wrangler”.

      http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0099610/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

      Pretty confident he’s not got a major part but in this Greyjoy leaning thread, he could be a very passable Euron!

      Edit: Looking through his photos, he was also in ‘Arn, the Knight Templar’ which was a really fun film!

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    245. LukaNieto,

      Ah, the part of Dolorous Ned‘s post that references his previous roles slipped my notice. Oh well. In my defense, when a comment thread reaches this length, I tend to do a bit more skimming than I would otherwise. 😉

      Boulton probably is just playing a master or a slave in the crowd at Daznak’ Pit then, one that will be featured a bit more than than the background extras. Still a nice opportunity for him, though.

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    246. We’re almost at 400!

      Strider,

      I’d read in a previous article that I linked either on this thread or on a previous one that there was to be some fight scenes done in the olive groves outside of Osuna. That’s the only place I heard that bit of info though, so it’s most likely they just mean Daznak’s.

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    247. Wimsey:
      (This should really tell us that Dorne is going to be important: they might be cutting the Dorne Storyline, but they are keeping the Dorne plot line; they probably need the viewers to know about it for Seasons 6 and 7.)

      The jaded cynic within me agrees with you….but the cautious optimist who lurks behind my medulla oblongata believes that ASoI&F has an immense & growing number of storylines racing to the endline, and D&D have simply chosen to add a condensed Dorne storyline for their tactical and budgetary constraints for 7 seasons. Hopefully, all storylines will matter to the endgame and we are not spoiled by their storyline selection.

      Regarding your fAegon response, his slight storyline in Act II is definitely setup for major activity in Act III.

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    248. Well it seems like everything possible about this has been said. I was personally not a huge fan of the Iron islands storyline (especially compared to Dorne), and we all understand for practical reasons cuts must be made, and D&D know the endgame, so, if this has to go, so be it.

      Can I just be slightly annoying and say I wish we were trading the Iron Islands for a more complete Dorne story including Arianne, etc? But that ship has sailed..

      for Mine is the Furry:

      Bang: Season 4 show Daario, did you see that shit??? Take off your clothes, indeed! (book Daario can suck it, I’m not into yellow lace on my men…)

      Marry: Jaime, my one and only. I love the fierceness… Until you and I are the only people left in this world. Shout out to all my fellow Jaime fans 😉

      Kill: Walder Frey! The North Remembers!

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    249. TheTouchOfFrost:
      Dolorous Ned,

      Pretty confident he’s not got a major part but in this Greyjoy leaning thread, he could be a very passable Euron!

      He does look like he could be related to Theon.
      I wonder how many of the cast have performed with the RSC.
      To me, that’s always been as close as one can get to a guarantee that they’re exceptional at their craft.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Hodor’s Bastard: Regarding your fAegon response, his slight storyline in Act II is definitely setup for major activity in Act III

      Well, he didn’t really have a storyline! He was a foil for Tyrion at first:

      Tyrion seeing through Aegon’s disguise was and the subsequent interactions between the two helped “wake up” Tyrion, and marks the start of Tyrion rising back to being himself

      . After that, Aegon is a foil for Connington

      rising back up from “Griff” to himself. Yes, Tyrion still wants revenge, but he’s remembering that he revels in being a mover and a shaker, too

      . That written, I don’t expect that Aegon will ever be a protagonist himself: I’m betting that he’ll

      be a foil for Danny simply because he both does and does not merit the throne more than she does: and Martin revels in those right/wrong dilemmas. (And, of course, there will be the issue of how Jon fits into this!)

      .

      All of that written, if they streamline Tyrion’s plot line in Season 5 (and they almost have to do so), then it obviates the need for the Griffs this year, unless they decide to end the season with some teasers for Season 6. Yes, Connington contributes a bit to the story: but because audiences don’t know him, the contribution will be pretty weak. (It wasn’t substantial in the book, but fortunately Dragons relied on well-establiswed characters, so it didn’t really hurt the book, either.)

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    251. Only 2 more.. let’s hit 400 comments for the win! 🙂

      also, Tyrion Pimpslap, I second your cuddle option with Jorah…

        Quote  Reply

    252. 400th Post!!!

      Edit 1: Whoops posted too early. Swear I read that it said 399. Oh well…

      Edit 2: Anyway I was also going to say that it is great to see so many comments on threads the last few weeks. There has definitely been a general increase in comments the past few weeks, and it is so good to see the site flourishing.

      So, we have had 400 now, when will have an article get to 500? My best bet is the first Season 5 trailer, because I can’t see any further filming information being big enough. We shall see…

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    253. Wimsey,

      Just a foil huh? Interesting fAegon approach. Would you say that as well for Stannis because of his lack of PoV? We need to really explore Doran, Varys and Illyrio’s heads regarding the fAegon issue to truly understand his role in this tale, but I don’t disagree that his appearance has “inspired” (and will inspire) many other major characters and their storylines.

      Fun!

      As others have inferred, it looks like Dorne may have its own fAegon, which will significantly alter the “foil” factor of your analysis. Hmmmmmm….

      …..ever wonder how D & R & V are going to react to fAegon, if they ever get the chance? 🙂

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    254. Syrio Fo-real,

      Daenerys. I know emelia is smokin hot but the only cool about daenerys is her dragons. She definately has some dragon tendancies (not burnt by fire) so what does she do with that power? Chain her dragons and sit in a pyramid while her families land is raped and pillaged.

      You said it, Dany in Meereen was such a waste of a great character, all she did was revert back to the preteen we first glimpsed at the beginning of the saga. All she experienced and the wisdom she learned before Meereen was lost.
      Furthermore, while Tyrion’s journey was fun in parts, the overall story did nothing to advance the character except for the location.
      Arya was good at first but then I began losing interest, her mercy chapter though in WoW is awesome. Brienne (yawn).
      Iron Born battle for power is so full of one dimensional stock characters, the characters in the Vikings show are Shakespearean thespians by comparison.
      Dorne on the other hand is a rich and diverse land with interesting females and Prince Doran,with a strong tie to the happenings in KL. Which is why they are in the show.
      GRRM should have compressed 4 and 5 into one book and then have the 5 year gap until book 5 (now 6). Roughly 60% of those books were filler.
      After Dany deciding to stay in Meereen, GRRM could have shown the insurrection, Dany crushing it, then in Winds she departs after successfully ruling with the now grown dragons in tow. We get a few early chapters of Arya, then a five year gap and then the Mercy chapter. Concerning Tyrion, GRRM could have done what D&D are doing, have Tyrion get to Meereen fast and be involved in the insurrection crisis and then the 5 year gap.
      The fans would have loved the 4th book more and the 5th would have been released by now.
      Well, water under the bridge, lets hope D&D really nail the loose adaption GoT is becoming. The show needs to diverge from the books and create its own conclusions, mainly because I don’t want Winds and Spring spoiled.

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    255. Jeb,

      Yeah, sorry. That was me. I made a post that just said “399”, but I thought it felt like cheating, so I deleted it.

      tyjon,

      I think the purpose of Dany’s Meereen storyline was to basically destroy her faith in peace. Until now, she has been determined to bring peace to Westeros, and wherever else she conquered. Now, having experienced it, she has decided that the price of peace is too high. My guess is she will not worry so much about the lives of innocent people in the future (not that she will TRY to kill them, but if they die, she’ll see it as just an unfortunate price she must pay), and will rule Westeros through fear.

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    256. This sucks. I’m hoping this writer is just making assumptions as there is always at least one minor ironborn subplot per season; i’m hoping season 5’s will wrap up balon’s storyline and maybe introduce euron. Still hopeful that we’ll get victarion next season.

        Quote  Reply

    257. Big Mac,
      Hey, at least I know I wasn’t hallucinating now. And yes, that would have been cheating 😉

      Josh,
      Hibberd also adds “I’m not saying S5 won’t have any Iron Islands scenes, only that my understand is the big book 4 subplot isn’t a part of S5.”
      I’m sure we will get Yara, and reasonably sure they will show Balon’s death.

      Greenjones,
      Yeah, it is definitely a record number. I know there was one with around 330 which is the highest I know of, but there definitely hasn’t been one over 400. The site does seem to have grown back up on people who gave up on WiC, and quite a number of new faces too. Here’s hoping that it continues to grow right up to Season 5 (and beyond)!

        Quote  Reply

    258. a tad bit off topic, but is it confirmed we are getting the northern mountain clans? Want to see that Bolton blood speech on screen!

        Quote  Reply

    259. Hodor’s Bastard:
      Wimsey,

      Just a foil huh? Interesting fAegon approach. Would you say that as well for Stannis because of his lack of PoV?

      “Foil,” “secondary character” or whatever you wish to call a character like Stannis’. A minimum requirement of protagonists is that they be PoV: and even then, although all protagonists are POV characters at some point, not all POV characters need to be protagonists. (For example, Melisandre and Areo Hotah are POV characters, but they certainly are not protagonists.)

      Moreover, there is no “shame” in being a secondary character that is a foil for one or more protagonists. Look at Ron and Hermione in Harry Potter: they were hugely important for plot and story by always getting Harry (figuratively and literally) where he needed to be for Rowling to tell her stories. However, they were secondary characters: they never are PoV, and the stories always completely concern Harry getting from Point A to Point B mentally.

      Stannis is similar to Ron and Hermione in how he (Stannis) is used for Davos and (later) Jon. Davos, in particular, is so loyal to Stannis that he’s willing to be disloyal to Stannis. Davos also is capable of loving (worshipping, really!) the man so intently that he can hate Stannis’ actions that he (Davos) deems harmful.

      As for Aegon, I think that it is going to be Dany’s thoughts that are most important. Martin revels in internal conflicts, and he’s going to present one in the same way that the other Lannisters did for Tyrion.

      As for what Trystane is on the TV show, I am skeptical that he’s going to be some replacement for Aegon. For one thing, a replacement for Aegon would be interacting with the other Lannister brother, not Jaime! As it is Jaime in Dorne, I think that Trystane and the other Dornish are going to be replacements for the characters with whom Jaime deals with in Riverrun and surrounding areas in the books. At the same time, the viewers will learn (or be reminded) of the depth of Dorne’s hatred for House Lannister, which will serve as plot setup for Season 6. And, of course, this will be a big part of Cersei’s story line:

      just like letting religious fanatics arm themselves or like stiffing the Iron Bank, sending people to Dorne to steal her daughter is the “bold, decisive Tywin Lannister” thing to do in her mind, but actually just dumb!

      (I’m not sure exactly how this will be done: in part, the details of Jaime’s plot line in Crows entirely elude me just now! For some reason, the specifics in that book just slide off of my brain….)

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    260. Wow! It makes me pretty happy to see this many comments–just the fact that the GoT fanbase can have these sort of conversations (in all of its “getting OT” glory) is pretty cool.

      Lady Wolfsbane,

      Oddly enough, when I clicked the imdb link, an ad for Constantine expanded to cover Boulton’s head shot in the form of a firey blaze haha.

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    261. I’m afraid they will add some weird sex scene between Jaime and one of the snakes like what they did between Mel and Stannis .

      and is there a possibility that they could kill one of them this season since they have 3 of them plus Ellaria + what do you think they will say and do about the other five snakes ? of course they’r not gonna bring them all but they already said he has 8 ! I think we will have a scene with Ellaria and the other five snakes and they will show us that all of them are babes and children so they don’t have to bring them or involve them in the story later like Ellia and Sarella

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    262. So I’m trying to think of a unique yet fun way of proposing to Sue the Fury. Any suggestions?

      I can’t wait until she becomes Mrs Sue the Furry.

        Quote  Reply

    263. Lady Nym,

      No, not with Jaime. Of them only Tyene will strip (and only once).

      If they were to transfer AFFC Riverlands events to s5 Dorne they could have someone proposition Jaime as Pia did and him turn her down gently.

        Quote  Reply

    264. Keisha looks more… Obara-ish in those photos than I’ve seen in other photos.
      Jessica looks almost exactly like how I pictured Nymeria.
      Rosabell, as mentioned, is perfect for Tyene, as she looks so freakin’ cute and innocent.

      I look forward to see them onscreen. Hopefully the Unsullied will like them too.

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