HBO releases casting call for Daemon Targaryen and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau discusses the fan response to season 8

Daemon

In these uncertain times it’s deeply comforting to hear that at least one thing is still on track … and that’s the Game of Thrones prequel series, House of the Dragon. A casting call has surfaced for the role of Daemon Targaryen, who is slated to be one of the leads in the series. In other news, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau recently said he “almost wanted” to donate to the petition to remake season 8 of Game of Thrones.


The Illuminerdi reported that HBO is looking for multiple options to play Daemon Targaryen. The character description reads:

PRINCE DAEMON TARGARYEN (Male, 40-50) – The younger brother to King Viserys, Daemon wasn’t born with “naked ambition” for the throne despite being in line for it. He’s less methodical and more impetuous. Not to mention easily bored…stumbling from one distraction to the next with the subconscious yet singular obsession with earning the love and acceptance of his brother the king. Most of Daemon’s joy is found at sword-point. But even as the most experienced warrior of his time, he vacillates between vile and heroic, making him the true rogue of the series.

SERIES LEAD. OPTIONS ESSENTIAL *This role is currently scheduled to film between January – December 2021*

Game of Thrones ceased using real character names for casting calls many seasons before the end, so the lack of a pseudonym for Prince Daemon may cast some doubt on the veracity of this casting call. However, it’s true that House of the Dragon is a new production distinct from Game of Thrones, so they may be doing things differently. They wouldn’t be spoiling much with casting calls for a show that takes place at a time many years in the past of Westeros that Martin has written about at length.

Speaking of: Daemon Targaryen, for those of you who don’t have Fire and Blood close at hand, was the husband of Rhaenyra Targaryen, one of the contenders for the throne during the Dance of the Dragons. But Daemon made his own mark on Targaryen history and earned himself a reputation as a rogue, which the description above references. He’s even the eponymous character of George R.R. Martin’s novelette, The Rogue Prince.

Though we certainly had our fair share of morally grey characters in Game of Thrones, it’ll be interesting to see how House of the Dragon portrays this particular roguish-yet-royal, vile-yet-heroic protagonist. I’m keen to learn more when filming begins next year.


Until then, let’s refocus our attention on the present, where Nikolaj Coster-Waldau recently interviewed with Variety and joked about wanting to donate to the petition to redo the ending of Game of Thrones. When asked about the fans’ less-than-stellar response to Jaime’s death, Coster-Waldau said:

I didn’t follow it at all. [Pauses.] Obviously, I heard about it. I was aware of the petition for a new ending, which I thought was hilarious. I almost wanted to donate to that petition. HBO saying, “You’re right, so many people want it, we’re going to do it.” I think everyone had their own opinion. I find the world of fandom really interesting. Everyone wanted something specific and different from what they got. It’s a combination of — you imagine an ending; but also, I think if you’re a hardcore fan, it was really upsetting that it ended. You lived with this for eight seasons. There is still a massive community dedicated to “Game of Thrones.” I think there was a real fear that was going to go away. It had to end.

So, in context it’s pretty clear that Nikolaj didn’t actually support the call to “correct” the final season. Though I have to say, when he was asked what he would change about season 8 if he had to redo it, his reply was a tad dodgy.

“Oh, how did it end? He was — no, it was fine. It was great. It was fine. How do you end that story? Let’s talk about this in 10 years, then you can talk about it. But now, I think it’s a little too recent.”

306 responses

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    1. Can anyone actually show me the casting call and not some site posting what they claim? Because I’ve looked for an official casting call from HBO and I can’t find it.

      Thanks.

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    2. Nik’s a solid guy and an underrated actor in North America (see Shotcaller!). He and Gwen had some of the best banter onscreen and off. 🙂

      Thinking of who I’d love to see as Daemon…..🤔

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    3. I still hope they will do the Dance of the Dragons in parallel with Aegon’s Conquest. Similar to Godfather part II.
      The ending of GoT is very Incomplete. We have to wait 10 years to talk about it, because somehow in 10 years it will be completed. Don’t ask how. Don’t know, don’t care.

      P.S. – We saw Jaime vs. Euron. A fight no one wanted, no one cared about. Instead, we didn’t see many events so,so many people wanted to see…

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    4. Iul:
      P.S. – We saw Jaime vs. Euron. A fight no one wanted, no one cared about. Instead, we didn’t see many events so,so many people wanted to see…

      I wanted that fight

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    5. Iul,

      Can you elaborate a little further?

      And yes, when showrunners decide what’s going to happen in their show, they’re obviously supposed to browse through fan forums and ask “hmm, what do these people want to see?” because it’s not like they have a story to tell or anything…

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    6. Farimer123:
      Mr Derp,

      What, you’re not ready for another bout? Another spirited discussion?

      I’m more than ready for a spirited discussion that doesn’t involve the same people regurgitating the same talking points about whether the ending was good or not. It’s just beating a dead horse at this point. No one’s changing their opinion. Lines in the sand have been drawn a long time ago.

      Some liked the ending, some didn’t. We’ve all heard why it was great, why it sucked, and everything in between by now.

      I am excited to hear about some casting news though. I assume Daemon would play a pretty large role, so it’ll be interesting to hear who gets hired.

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    7. Jack,

      Take this with a grain of salt this website just reported on Neil Gaiman project and he said it was complete BS. This site isn’t always accurate.

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    8. There is an Italian interview Nik just gave on YouTube where he talks much more about the show and has nothing but praise for it. Although you can tell in the interview he is getting a little tired of people constantly asking the same question over and over.

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    9. Farimer123,

      When you develop an idiotic plot in season 7 and you close it in season 8 (Jaime-Euron), WIDTHOUT closing tenths of plots you opened in season 1 and season 2, you write a horrible story.
      It’s insulting to me when you tell me, though the way you’ve structured you story, “Don’t care about what I’ve taught you to care about, be satisfied that I gave you something spectacular”.

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    10. So, in context it’s pretty clear that Nikolaj didn’t actually support the call to “correct” the final season. Though I have to say, when he was asked what he would change about season 8 if he had to redo it, his reply was a tad dodgy.

      NCW was in every episode of Season Eight, and his character was doing some pretty damned heroic things, as well. Find me an actor who wouldn’t want another set of paychecks for re-doing that. 😉

      With House of the Dragon looking more like it will actually happen, I’m hoping for more of that great Game of Thrones goodness: complex characters facing difficult choices, alternating between “high-thread-count” dialog scenes and dragon-on-dragon action. Let’s see who gets cast for this role!

      …WIDTHOUT closing tenths of plots you opened in season 1 and season 2, you write a horrible story.

      Which character and/or story arcs from Seasons One and Two were not closed by the end of the series? I can’t think of any, offhand.

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    11. Iul,

      No, an example of a horrible story would be to write a fairy tale ending just to satisfy a few fans. Luckily, D&D stayed true to the story and the characters until the very end and brought the series to a phenomenal conclusion.

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    12. Mr Derp,

      Maisie Williams is going to be on Fallon ostensibly to promote “New Mutants.” I can’t imagine there won’t be any questions about Game of Thrones.

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    13. Iul,

      What are you talking about they closed all the stories from season 1 and 2. Might be hard for you to believe but many people loved season 8.

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    14. Ten Bears:
      Mr Derp,

      Maisie Williams is going to be on Fallon ostensibly to promote “New Mutants.” I can’t imagine there won’t be any questions about Game of Thrones.

      She’ll probably get asked really original and hard-hitting questions like, “ok, so it’s been a year since GoT ended. Do you still like the ending?”

      She’ll say “yes, I will always be grateful”.

      Feel like I’ve heard this somewhere before.

      I can only hope the GoT questions are more engaging like “do you feel like season 8 was fast paced or rushed?”

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    15. Mr Derp,

      I have to admit I’m personally curious to know more about the Quaithe and how she knew so much about Dany and Jorah.

      There are many unanswered questions from the series, yes. Here are a few of mine:

      + “There are no dire wolves south of The Wall.” (And, yet…)

      + How did Wil the ranger get all the way through Castle Black, presumably babbling about White Walkers the entire way, without Maester Aemon (or anyone else) sending a rider or raven to Winterfell, requesting Wil be returned to the NW?

      + Ned has all of his children witness his execution of Wil. He even tells Cat about it. Wil dies whilst still talking about the White Walkers. Yet Maester Luwin is left to discover the White Walker threat by chatting with Osha. (OK, Ned was a dolt, but you might think a Maester would have ways of learning things.)

      + Why did Ned fail to follow the dying wish of his friend (!), the deathbed command of his king (!!), and instead try to enthrone Stannis? (Again, Ned was a dolt, but he was also Hand of the King, and Robert was his friend.)

      + How did Qyburn get to where he was found? A cynical reading of his dialog with Robb implies Q was a ‘plant’, but there was never any explanation of Q’s origin.

      + “If he’s so all-powerful, why doesn’t he just tell you what the f*ck he wants?”

      (The answer for each, of course, is “the needs of the story,” but those are a few unexplained items.)

      Those are all little mysteries, but I asked Iul to tell us about entire character arcs or story arcs from S1 and S2 which were left unfinished. Again, I can’t think of one.

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    16. ^^^ those unanswered questions lol. Irrelevant.

      I like the ending although it was rushed.

      Also, Euron as a character on the show was awful.

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    17. Young Dragon,

      I didn’t say anything about fairytale endings.
      The number of satisfied fans is so low, many companies who manufactured GoT merchandise don’t want to produce more because…they don’t sell them anymore.

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    18. I really can’t imagine shooting of HOTD to take 12 months. Even last season of GoT took 10 months to shoot. Other seasons took 5-6 months.

      This is too long. I think it’s probably fake.

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    19. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Well, since we’re making lists, here are a few of my unsolved mysteries:

      *Who spoke to Varys in the flames and what was spoken?

      * All the talk and foreshadowing in season 7 about Dany getting pregnant went absolutely nowhere in season 8. Did the writers change plans between seasons or did they do this on purpose to “subvert expectations”.

      * The purpose of Sam stealing Heartsbane.

      *The purpose of Jorah getting Greyscale only to have it cured so expeditiously. Yes, I know Sam gave Jorah Hearstbane as a result of their relationship, but what was the point?

      * The Quaithe

      * Cersei’s “black-haired baby” story back in season 1. Was she lying or being honest? If she was being honest, that wouldn’t jive with the prophesy.

      * Why didn’t Dany/Tyrion ever consider their tried and true strategy of infiltrating KL from the inside? Especially since Tyrion knew KL inside and out.

      Food for thought.

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    20. Iul,

      The number of satisfied fans is so low, many companies who manufactured GoT merchandise don’t want to produce more because…they don’t sell them anymore.

      You might want to look at this. 😉

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    21. mau:
      I really can’t imagine shooting of HOTD to take 12 months. Even last season of GoT took 10 months to shoot. Other seasons took 5-6 months.

      This is too long. I think it’s probably fake.

      If they’re really going to have major dragon-on-dragon action, that requires multiple actors on mechanical bulls, interacting with each other. Even one such ‘dogfight’ could take quite awhile to produce.

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    22. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      The order is arbitrary:
      – The WW symbols, “Always the artists”.
      – WW can’t pass through the wall because of “spells”, but Othor was risen beyond the wall, at Castle Black. What ? How ?
      – How did the wildlings survived beyond the wall, the same side as the WW ? It’s clear they were not attacked; (Craster served the WW, so he is covered…). Why were they attacked later ? What changed ?
      – “And that sword will be called lightbringer”.
      – Why was Ghost important to Jon Snow ? He was never alongside Jon in Jon’s key moments, after the scene in season 1. He was more a pet, easily disposable.
      – Shadows… One of them killed Renly.
      – The Dothraki. They’ve lost their Khaleesi.
      – The Lord of Light.
      – The reaction of the small folk to the huge changes in Westeros, especially during Cersei’s reign.
      – What did Podrick do to those girls? Kidding… he sang to them. That’s clear.
      – Varys… Just Varys.
      – I think Varys heard “Dracarys” in the flames. But that’s just me.
      – Illyrio Mopatis.
      – Why were Sansa and Tyrion not still married ?
      – What was Jaquen doing in KL ?
      – “But freedom means making your own choices – they don’t get to choose”.
      – The power of Dragonglass.

      If I start describing how incomplete the “closed” story arcs are, It will take me days writing.

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    23. Iul: – Why were Sansa and Tyrion not still married ?

      I don’t want to try and fact-check that entire list, but the show did cover this one. They have to consummate the marriage in order to make it legitimate, which never happened.

      I agree with some of your other points, though.

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    24. Iul: – How did the wildlings survived beyond the wall, the same side as the WW ? It’s clear they were not attacked; (Craster served the WW, so he is covered…). Why were they attacked later ? What changed ?

      I think there were always limited skirmishes with the WW and Wildlings (though its hard to know for how long), but there weren’t any large scale battles until the WW’s started heading towards the Wall. For example, remember Osha had to kill her spouse because he turned into an other or something like that. Plus the opening scene of the pilot.

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    25. Iul,

      That’s a great list of mysteries, and I hope I’ll have time to address your list with my take on each item. But you still haven’t answered my question. Which character arc(s) and/or story arc(s) were not closed by the end of the story? Again, I loved the story, and cannot think of one.

      For example: mentioning Illyrio Mopatis does not answer my question (even though I loved this character). This character does not have an arc of his own. He’s there as a supporting character, with a number of duties to fulfill. He does everything he needs to do, then (presumably) retires to his stupendous mansion in the Free Cities. (Or goes trading in the East, or whatever.) Once Dany dies and Tyrion is effectively ruler of Westeros, there’s nothing left in the story for Illyrio to do.

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    26. Mr Derp,

      Varys and the voice: We didn’t get the answer to this, but I’d prefer we didn’t as it would cheapen it. This plays into the mysterious nature of magical power in this world, how unclear it is.

      Dany’s pregnancy: She claimed she couldn’t have children. And that let into Tyrion discussing alternative methods of choosing a successor. It was brought up again later by Jon, who was trying to offer Dany some hope during a time when it seemed like things had gone very wrong. But despite a healthy amount of banging on both sides of the Narrow Sea, she never became pregnant, so we saw nothing to suggest the witch’s promise of infertility was incorrect. George gave them all the major beats back around S3 or S4 – Dany having k is an enormous story beat that D&D couldn’t have possibly left out if it was actually what George intended.

      Sam stealing the sword: A symbolic “fuck you” to his shitty father. The sword was rightfully his anyway. And it’s of much better value on the front lines of the war against the dead then sitting on some wall in the south.

      Jorah’s greyscale: It served to strengthen the bond between Dany and Jorah, and to help them move past the pain of Jorah’s past betrayal. It lasted for like a third of Jorah’s screentime.

      The Quaithe: Maybe, but what plotlines did she introduce, exactly? She just gave some cryptic omens and warnings, all of which came to pass during that season.

      Cersei’s black-haired-boy: not in the books, humanizes Cersei a lot, provides more foreshadowing to the true parentage of Joffrey Tommen & Marcella. Doesn’t really conflict with the prophecy because babies dying shortly after birth was so common in those times that they barely counted towards the number of children a woman truly had. The mother’s grief is certainly real, but the baby barely lived at all. Oh, and she wasn’t lying. Cersei is much less of a shitty person overall in the show, more 3D. She genuinely sympathized with Catelyn’s plight. When Bran saw her and Jaime, she was just panicked and afraid; she didn’t want Jaime to kill him. Even in the books, she says she would have much rather have tried to intimidate him into silence. Which makes sense because it would cause much less of a stir than his death or crippling.

      Infiltration: Its not enough to just infiltrate a city and try to assasinate the leader; one must make the troops surrender and prevent them from consoldiating behind anyone else. Dany did it in Yunkai to sneak an army of Unsullied into the city guarded by strong walls but a lackluster and undisciplined army. She snuck a few Unsullied into Mereen to supply the slaves with weapons and help them stage a long-overdue revolution against their oppressive masters. Neither of those would work for KL.

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    27. Farimer123:
      Mr Derp,
      Cersei’s black-haired-boy: not in the books, humanizes Cersei a lot, provides more foreshadowing to the true parentage of Joffrey Tommen & Marcella. Doesn’t really conflict with the prophecy because babies dying shortly after birth was so common in those times that they barely counted towards the number of children a woman truly had. The mother’s grief is certainly real, but the baby barely lived at all.

      I would also add that prophecies aren’t always reliable in GOT. After all, Melisandre thought Stannis was going to take back Winterfell based on one of her visions.

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    28. Farimer123,

      I like your explanation about Heartsbane, but I have to admit, the rest isn’t very convincing.

      I wasn’t expecting Dany to actually have a baby, but if there was no intention to make this a plot point in season 8 then it’s strange that it was brought up in season 7 so many times.

      Dany made a point to bring it up several times in season 7 that she couldn’t have children, not just when she was talking to Tyrion. They really played this up when Dany and Jon were talking with each o=other that season. Jon specifically said that Dany’s source that claimed she couldn’t get pregnant wasn’t the most relaible source. Why mention that at all?

      It definitely seems odd that season 7 heavily foreshadowed a pregnancy with no follow-up at all in 8. Maybe that’s just me.

      I don’t know how long Jorah’s greyscale actually lasted, but if it lasted for a 1/3 of the time then it should’ve amounted to more than merely strengthening a bond that was already strong to begin with. Besides, Dany already forgave Jorah by then. It’s not really a big deal to me, but it seemed at the time like greyscale was going to play a bigger part in the story than it did. It was also incredibly easy to cure. All you need is a doctor with some balls.

      My comment about the Quaithe was merely how she knew all about Dany and Jorah. I never mentioned arcs or plotlines.

      Your comments about Cersei’s “black-haired baby” sound like opinion and nothing that is really based on anything that’s factual, but who knows? We never got an explanation. I don’t think you can use it’s “not in the books” as an explanation though.

      I think it actually would be enough to infiltrate a city and kill the leader in this case. “Cut the head off the snake.” If Cersei died, who was going to take over on her behalf and lead KL to victory against Dany? She had no one on her side by the end other than Jaime who wasn’t in KL until the very end. It would’ve completely prevented the invasion, but of course, I recognize this is all merely conjecture on my part. It makes sense though.

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    29. Speaking of the Dany/Jon baby thing, I wonder if Dany was meant to be pregnant, making Jon’s decision to kill Dany all the more difficult, but the writers pulled back because maybe it would’ve been too much for the audience to take.

      I wonder if this is what GRRM has planned in the books.

      Dark thought, but this is Game of Thrones after all.

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    30. Mr Derp,

      I’m not sure how Danerys continually saying she’ll never have children foreshadows that she’ll become pregnant. It seems like the exact opposite.

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    31. Young Dragon:
      Mr Derp,

      I’m not sure how Danerys continually saying she’ll never have children foreshadows that she’ll become pregnant. It seems like the exact opposite.

      I can understand your thought process if you completely ignore season 7 and the fact that no one ever proved that what Mirri told Dany was correct.

      Since season 1 she’s believed that she can never have children again based entirely of what Mirri told her.

      Suddenly, in season 7 when she started falling in love, the writers made a specific point to make her pregnancy a topic once again, not just when discussing succession plans, but during intimate talks between Dany and Jon.

      The writers made a specific point to include the “has it occurred to you that she might not be a reliable source of information?” line from Jon to Dany. It’s the first time anyone bothered to challenge her belief on the subject, and it just so happened to be her future lover. Why include that line unless you’re trying to tease or foreshadow something? GoT foreshadowed all the time.

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    32. Young Dragon,

      Oh, and in the same episode Jon challenged her beliefs about her fertility, they had sex for the first time shortly afterwards.

      There was so much momentum built up and the timing of it all surely makes it reasonable to think a pregnancy storyline could be coming. There’s no other reason for Jon and Dany to have discussed this before they became intimate or developed a relationship.

      This plot point was never brought up ever again in season 8. IMO, it felt like a re-write. It’s just my opinion. We can agree to disagree as always.

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    33. Lul=100% right.
      And a Jonerys baby was obviously foreshadowed like mad; its getting dropped is one of the eternally bizarre decisions that made S8 feel like a hyper-abridged version of the ending of a different version of the story.

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    34. Mr Derp: I am excited to hear about some casting news though. I assume Daemon would play a pretty large role, so it’ll be interesting to hear who gets hired.

      Me too. I’m pretty excited for some fresh news about fresh GoT/ASOIAF-related projects.

      In regard to baby stuff, I’ve also considered some of this same stuff too. While I never expected either character to participate in parenthood or raise a child, I also considered if a maybe-baby (who may or may not have survived) or perhaps even a (possibly failed) pregnancy could be a book-only-storyline but it was an adaptation casualty wherein the show runners were sticking to the very broadest strokes but making cuts where they could (ie. Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, the Dorne storyline, etc.) to distill the story for television, fitting within the seasons’ time constraints. One of GRRM’s editors Linda Antonsson speculated Dany having a child at some point but I feel it could go either way for me. With the show, I was divided over whether or not they’d go through with it.

      But alas, we may never know… because them books would need to be published for us to actually compare and contrast 🙂 I feel it’s sort of blind speculation at this point.

      Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: + Why did Ned fail to follow the dying wish of his friend (!), the deathbed command of his king (!!), and instead try to enthrone Stannis? (Again, Ned was a dolt, but he was also Hand of the King, and Robert was his friend.)

      I think the show (and books) sort of covered this. Since Ned found out Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were illegitimate and Robert didn’t know they weren’t his (and Ned couldn’t bring himself to tell Robert the truth about Cersei’s children), he was following the laws of succession and with the discovery that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were Cersei’s bastard children with Jaime, Stannis would have been Robert’s rightful heir.

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    35. Mr Derp,

      Ok, I had forgotten Jon challenging Mirri’s claim. I only remember Tyrion discussing it with her, which I thought was the writers planting the seeds that perhaps Danerys wasn’t the right fit for the throne after all if, after she died, they would have had a succession crisis all over again. I see where you’re coming from with the Jon scene though. I’m not entirely sure why the writers included it.

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    36. sydney,

      I wouldn’t say it was foreshadowed like mad. There was only a sprinkling of it, hardly concrete. The show worked absolutely fine without a Jonerys baby and hit all the plot points it needed to hit to make it feel like a proper conclusion.

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    37. Mr Derp,

      Young Dragon,

      On the topic of Mirri’s claim, I think the part about Dany’s child-bearing abilities was left out of her prophecy on the show.

      Mirri: You asked for life, you paid for life.

      Daenerys: This is not life. When will he be as he was?

      Mirri: When the sun rises in the west, sets in the east. When the seas go dry. When the mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

      Whereas in the books, Mirri continues on to say, “When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child,” but this was not included in the show quote.

      Could have just been a proofing error though, which happens.

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    38. Mr Derp:
      Speaking of the Dany/Jon baby thing, I wonder if Dany was meant to be pregnant, making Jon’s decision to kill Dany all the more difficult, but the writers pulled back because maybe it would’ve been too much for the audience to take.

      I wonder if this is what GRRM has planned in the books.

      Dark thought, but this is Game of Thrones after all.

      Bingo!
      And in addition to the other foreshadowings and dialogue you mentioned, there was that odd conversation between Jorah and Jon about Jon keeping Longclaw to pass down to his “children and his children’s children.”

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    39. ASNAWP Public Service Announcement

      at 11:35 pm EDT tonight, on NBC, “The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon”:

      Description: Director Tyler Perry; actress Maisie Williams; Trevor Daniel performs.
      Show: The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
      Air date: August 19, 2020

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    40. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      That could still happen, though. Jon could bed a wildling woman.

      I thought since he’s back in the NW he “shall father no children”? As Sam pointed out, bedding a woman isn’t technically prohibited. Siring children, though, is forbidden.

      He should’ve stayed in that cave…👩🏻‍🦰

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    41. Ten Bears,

      The purpose for that rule is so the men of the Watch can focus entirely on the Watch’s mission. Since their mission is essentially over, there’s no more need for that rule.

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    42. Q: The illustration at the top of the page: Is that supposed to be Daemon Targaryen?

      Q: Why is the dragon smoking a cigarette?

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    43. Ten Bears,

      Thanks for the link! Good interview! Just finished! 😀

      Q: The illustration at the top of the page: Is that supposed to be Daemon Targaryen?

      Q: Why is the dragon smoking a cigarette?

      A: I think so!

      A: Stress.

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    44. sydney,

      This one bugs me. I only care about the show here:
      Why do the white trees with red leaves have faces on them ?
      How did they end-up with faces on them ?
      Why do they exist in the story ?

      Actually, there is one answer valid to all my questions, including many, many others.

      The show was not allowed to spoil the books. So the writers had to finish the show, somehow.
      In 10 years (now only 9 years – oh yes, I’m couting) all of this will be clear. The books will be published and the show will be explained.

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    45. Mr Derp,

      It’s the same like Robb and Talisa scenes. Giving the hope for future (that they will never have).

      Or you really think D&D didnt know that she will never have children when they wrote S7?

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    46. sydney,

      It was written to fool Jonerys stans and give them fake sense of security. Which it 100% did. Lol

      Majority in fandom thought that the story will end with incest baby. Which is irony if you think what actually happened with Jon and Daenerys.

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    47. I recently rebinged the entire show and enjoyed it all the way through. One giant 74 hour movie with a beginning(s1-3), middle(s4-6) and end(s7-8). I think everything ends up quite nicely.

        Quote  Reply

    48. mau,

      Well I had a schedule of 1 season (with the animated History & Lore) per day, so technically 8 days, but spread it across 2 weeks, because movement. I really wanted to experience it in the sense of a movie.

      I know it’s kind of insane. But I had 3 weeks off and with the hassle of traveling these days, I thought why not go on vacation to this lovely place called Westeros. Too bad a civil war broke out and in the end there was an invasion of ice zombies and a dragonlady burning everyting down.

      Met some interesting people tho. Except for a bunch of women calling themselves Sillysnakes or something. They were quite a bore.

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    49. Ten Bears:
      Q: The illustration at the top of the page: Is that supposed to be Daemon Targaryen?

      Q: Why is the dragon smoking a cigarette?

      the Red Dragon in BONE was a smoker. maybe this habit got the species extinct.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Iul,

      If I start describing how incomplete the “closed” story arcs are, It will take me days writing.

      Which is why I merely asked for an example. Please give one.

      Meanwhile, for your list of mysteries:

      – The WW symbols, “Always the artists”.

      This was explained in The Door, when Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven share a vision of the creation of the Night’s King. The Children of the Forest have a First Man bound to a weirwood tree, which is at the center of a spiral megalith. The White Walkers repeat this spiral pattern for the rest of their existence.

      – WW can’t pass through the wall because of “spells”, but Othor was risen beyond the wall, at Castle Black. What ? How ?

      Othor wasn’t ever a White Walker, he was an adult human. He died beyond The Wall, but was carried by the living through The Wall. The Night’s King or White Walkers could still re-animate his corpse. Later in the story, a wight is captured by humans and brought far south of The Wall. To allow White Walkers and himself pass, the Night’s King ultimately has to use an ice dragon to destroy the end of The Wall. While intact, The Wall prevented White Walkers from passing.

      – How did the wildlings survived beyond the wall, the same side as the WW ? It’s clear they were not attacked; (Craster served the WW, so he is covered…). Why were they attacked later ? What changed ?

      The region beyond The Wall is a vast, uncharted territory, of unknown extent. Small numbers of Free Folk and wights could co-exist out there, without ever knowing of each other’s existence. The NK needed WW to control large numbers of wights, but had to create WW from human babies. Only after Craster began consistently supplying the NK with large numbers of babies could the NK amass a huge army of wights. (Dany’s dragons were bringing magic back into the world, which may also have helped the NK.)

      – “And that sword will be called lightbringer”.

      Mel’ didn’t exactly “bat a thousand” with her predictions, now did she? 😉

      – Why was Ghost important to Jon Snow ? He was never alongside Jon in Jon’s key moments, after the scene in season 1. He was more a pet, easily disposable.

      He protected Jon’s corpse long enough for Davos to arrange Melisandre’s resurrection of Jon. That would seem to be a rather important moment for Jon.

      – Shadows… One of them killed Renly.

      Melisandre’s use of sex magic was pretty well explained in the show.

      – The Dothraki. They’ve lost their Khaleesi.

      So they’ll go follow some other strong leader in their rape and pillage lifestyle. They’ll just have to do it somewhere other than on Westeros, where organized opposition to reaving exists.

      – The Lord of Light.

      Real-life Christians claim their Lord “works in strange and mysterious ways.” Why should we expect a deity in a fantasy world to be any less mysterious?

      – The reaction of the small folk to the huge changes in Westeros, especially during Cersei’s reign.

      What changes did the small folk experience?

      – What did Podrick do to those girls? Kidding… he sang to them. That’s clear.

      Seriously, he seemed to have treated them well and with respect, which may well have been the only time any man ever did so.

      – Varys… Just Varys.

      Varys’ back-story and motivations were made pretty clear, at least to this viewer.

      – I think Varys heard “Dracarys” in the flames. But that’s just me.

      I think that’s a pretty good guess.

      – Illyrio Mopatis.

      He was a merchant prince, and may have wanted better leadership on Westeros so as to increase his trading opportunities.

      – Why were Sansa and Tyrion not still married ?

      Mr. Derp pointed out their marriage had never been consummated. Then Sansa fled King’s Landing, and Tyrion fled Westeros, so their marriage ended.

      – What was Jaquen doing in KL ?

      Whatever the Faceless Men sent him to do. Possibly to find Arya.

      – “But freedom means making your own choices – they don’t get to choose”.

      That showed rather well how tyrannical Dany had become.

      – The power of Dragonglass.

      It’s magical!

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    51. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: – The power of Dragonglass.

      It’s magical!

      This reminded me of a 2003 interview with GRRM in which GRRM touched on some stuff about dragonglass:

      Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian “dragonglass” or why you did that?

      Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

      Shaw: Are dragons somehow the mortal enemy of the Others?

      Martin: There are a lot of legends, and you’ll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn’t completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it’s formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

      Shaw: I wasn’t sure if you had added something to obsidian for the fantasy.

      Martin: I’ve given it magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn’t necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it’s a little bit different.

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    52. mau:
      Mr Derp,

      It’s the same like Robb and Talisa scenes. Giving the hope for future (that they will never have).

      Or you really think D&D didnt know that she will never have children when they wrote S7?

      I know what you mean about Robb/Talisa, but I think they’re situation was pretty different from Jon/Dany.

      I would say that they are similar in one sense. It’s about the unexpected. The audience wasn’t supposed to suspect that Robb/Talisa were about to get their lives cut short in the most brutal way possible, while the audience was supposed to be led to believe that Dany couldn’t have a child. IMO, both situations were intentionally set up to defy expectations.

      The fact that season 7 brought up pregnancy so much and then never mentioned it again in season 8, to me, is circumstantial evidence of a re-write. Again, I’m not claiming this is the facts of what happened. It’s just my opinion.

      * Why have Jorah talk to Jon about his children?
      * Why make Jon be the first person to question whether Mirri was a reliable source of information? What’s the point of even opening this door (sorry Hodor)?

      Jon and Dany had sex almost immediately after this. The timing of everything suggests, to me, there was a pregnancy story line coming. I don’t expect anyone to agree with me and I’m not really trying to convince anyone either. It’s just my opinion.

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    53. Iul: Martin talks about the books. I care about the show. It’s a mistake to mix them – although many people do.

      I wasn’t bringing this up to defend or criticize the show or books. My intent wasn’t to mix the show and the books.

      All I was trying to do was to provide a source of info on dragonglass from GRRM for those who may not have been aware of this interview (since it’s not a well-known interview — it’s not only a very old interview, it can only be accessed through Google’s web cache) — just for anyone who was interested and wanted to add it to their own pools of ASOIAF knowledge 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    54. mau,

      Also, the Dany/Jon tragedy could’ve been even more similar to Robb/Talisa had Dany gotten pregnant and killed by Jon.

      I think there’s a good chance that Jon and Robb’s fates were supposed to mirror each other except Jon ultimately chose duty over love in the end whereas Robb obviously chose love.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Somewhat off-topic:

      Kae Alexander, last seen as CotF Leaf in S6 blowing herself up so Bran could escape (for some still-unexplained imperative), is going to have a starring role in the Amazon adaptation of “Wheel of Time.”
      —————

      https://deadline.com/2020/08/the-wheel-of-time-sophie-okonedo-kae-alexander-join-cast-1203017296/

      ‘The Wheel of Time’: Sophie Okonedo & Kae Alexander Join Cast – Deadline

      Oscar-nominated actress Sophie Okonedo and former Game of Thrones star Kae Alexander are the latest names to sign up for The Wheel of Time, Amazon’s adaptation of Robert Jordan’s fantasy epic.

      Okonedo will assume the recurring role of legendary Amyrlin Seat Siuan Sanche, while Alexander will be playing fan-favorite Min Farshaw.

      Also joining are Kate Fleetwood (Harlots), Peter Franzen (Vikings) and Clare Perkins (Been So Long), who will play Liandrin Guirale, Stepin and Kerene Nagashi, respectively.

      Set in a sprawling, epic world where magic exists and only certain women are allowed to access it, the story follows Moiraine (Rosamund Pike), a member of the incredibly powerful all-female organization called the Aes Sedai, as she arrives in the small town of Two Rivers. There, she embarks on a dangerous, world-spanning journey with five young men and women, one of whom is prophesied to be the Dragon Reborn, who will either save or destroy humanity.

      The Wheel of Time was adapted for TV by executive producer/showrunner Rafe Judkins (Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.). Larry Mondragon and Rick Selvage of Red Eagle Entertainment, Ted Field and Mike Weber of Radar Pictures, Darren Lemke, Marigo Kehoe and Uta Briesewitz also serve as executive producers, with Briesewitz set to direct the first two episodes. Pike will serve as producer. Harriet McDougal and Brandon Sanderson are consulting producers. The Wheel of Time is co-produced by Amazon Studios and Sony Pictures Television.

      Okonedo secured an Oscar nomination for her role in 2005’s Hotel Rwanda. She was also Golden Globe-nominated for Tsunami: The Aftermath. Alexander played Child of the Forest, Leaf, in Game of Thrones.

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    56. Ten Bears,

      Thanks, Ten Bears! I’ve been curious about Wheel of TIme for some time (!) now. I’ve heard a lot about the books and how very intricate and complex they are and have been wondering how they’d play out on screen. I haven’t read the books but a friend of mine has a while ago and he’s like, “Yeah, it’s a lot!”

      So, as with His Dark Materials, I’m really eager to see this come to screen 🙂

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    57. Mr Derp,

      Because it’s a red herring. We are led to believe that they have a chance for a happy ending and that was taken away from us.

      I can’t imagine any scenario where Jon would kill pregnant Daenerys and his own child. Even after what she did in KL.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Mr Derp,

      My point with talisa and Robb is that this is old storytelling trick to give the audience false hope just before the tragedy. We saw it with Davos and Shireen as well. Harry and Sirius in Harry Potter movies. I mean there are a lot of examples. It’s not that original.

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    59. In any event, I really don’t see how Dany’s baby is unsolved mystery. Even if the writers wanted Jon to kill pregnant Daenerys, what we have now is part of the story now. Even if they wanted it to be foreshadowing now it’s red herring.

      But still I don’t think something that huge would’ve been changed that late. And I also can’t see pregnant Daenerys thinking that she has lost everything and burning the entire city. Pregnancy in this show was always used as a hope for a better future. Dany feeling hope for future would never do what she did at the end. Tyrion wanted to do everything to save Cersei because she was pregnant. I also can’t see him urge Jon to kill Dany in that case.

      Story as we saw it in the last season just doesn’t work with her pregnancy becuse it completely changes her mental state and her relationship with almost every character. I’m sure even Sansa wouldn’t work against Daenerys if she had Jon’s child.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Daenerys’s story is incomplete.
      Jon’s story is incomplete.
      The story starts with “the Targaryens are gone”. During the story, they seem to be back.
      But in the end, they are gone, again.

      Except they are not gone. Daenerys is not dead. She is now in Drogon’s body. That is why Jon Snow was not burned, that is why the Iron Throne got destroyed and that is why Bran says “Drogon, (…) maybe I can find him”. No Bran, you can’t. Because Drogon’s gone. And the last dragon is Daenerys.
      Both Jon and Daenerys suffer form what I call “the course of being a Targaryen”. And right now, in both cases, the course wins.
      I think that “the course wins” is a bad story.

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    61. GRRM really needs to finish TWOW so all these people who talk with such an authority about the future of the story can finally stop.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Mr Derp,
      mau,

      I can’t imagine any scenario where Jon would kill pregnant Daenerys and his own child. Even after what she did in KL.

      Why do you assume she wasn’t pregnant? They were likely having sex right up until the evening Sam spitefully told Jon his true name and birthright — and perhaps for a short time later, especially after the great victory they’d led. Given her haste to conquer King’s Landing, she could have died without knowing she’d conceived.

      I can’t recall any indication she might have been pregnant, so we can assume she was or was not pregnant, as we like. If she was barren, that just adds another level of pointlessness to her proposed World Tour of Conquest, as she couldn’t produce an heir to succeed her. If she was indeed pregnant by Jon, then it adds to Jon’s heroism, in his ridding the world of this final threat to the realms of men.

        Quote  Reply

    63. mau,

      In any event, I really don’t see how Dany’s baby is unsolved mystery. Even if the writers wanted Jon to kill pregnant Daenerys, what we have now is part of the story now. Even if they wanted it to be foreshadowing now it’s red herring.

      But still I don’t think something that huge would’ve been changed that late. And I also can’t see pregnant Daenerys thinking that she has lost everything and burning the entire city. Pregnancy in this show was always used as a hope for a better future. Dany feeling hope for future would never do what she did at the end. Tyrion wanted to do everything to save Cersei because she was pregnant. I also can’t see him urge Jon to kill Dany in that case.

      Story as we saw it in the last season just doesn’t work with her pregnancy becuse it completely changes her mental state and her relationship with almost every character. I’m sure even Sansa wouldn’t work against Daenerys if she had Jon’s child.

      I think a lot of this is hard to say for certain without having the published books to compare against. Even with the broad strokes and basic bullet points still aligning between the unpublished books and latter seasons of the show, not every detail between the show and books needs to be the same. And if there was a Dany baby/pregnancy planned, D&D may have had to cut this for time and make corresponding alterations to fit everything within a six-episode finale arc.

      The adaptational changes between book and show have existed from the start (eg. Robb’s marriage to Talisa was not really for the same reason as his marriage to Jeyne. The circumstances differ. There are also book-only characters, storylines in which they’ve paired down the complexity, characters who were killed in the show that are still alive in the books, etc.). Some of these changes were made for pragmatic purposes, some of these changes were made for distillation purposes.

      Maybe Dany will get pregnant in the books, it’s hard to say at this point. Maybe she loses the baby, maybe the pregnancy fails, maybe the child is threatened or killed, who knows?

      Likewise, Sansa’s storyline has been significantly changed in the show from book 4 onward because D&D wanted to expand her storyline:

      “Sansa is a character we care about almost more than any other, and the Stark sisters have from the very beginning been two characters who have fascinated us the most,” said showrunner David Benioff. “We got very lucky in casting because it’s so hard to cast good kids. Even if they come in and do a great audition, it’s so hard to know if they’re going to quite literally grow into the parts. With Sansa and Arya in particular, their storylines have become quite dark. It was such a gamble and the fact that they’ve both become such great wonderful actresses is a bit of a miracle.”

      And it’s because of Turner’s strength, Benioff continued, that it made sense to give Sansa a dramatic storyline this season and to use Ramsay’s engagement for that very purpose. In fact, the showrunners first thought about putting Sansa and Ramsay together back when they were writing season 2. “We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season,” Benioff said. “If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character that’s not in the show.”

      We don’t really know what exactly GRRM had planned, what changes there have been, what cuts, etc.

      Perhaps Dany already has lost the baby by the time she may (or may not) come into contact with Sansa. Perhaps Sansa doesn’t know about the child for some reason. Perhaps Sansa is willing to act against Dany, even if she’s carrying Jon’s child, because Sansa’s loyalty is to the North first — despite how much it pains her (human heart in conflict with itself? :D). Perhaps Dany has already had the baby and Sansa is making plans to take the child.

      (These are all wild speculations, not theories I’m banking on. My main point is we don’t know what differences there will be between the unpublished books and latter seasons of the show. Only a very select group of people have access to this knowledge.)

      I think the show offered a sketch of the basic bullet points the final books will be meeting and I think a lot of it will happen — but maybe not quite in the same way as what happened in the show because the show was facing constraints, the books may have more freedom with.

      I share some of Mr Derp’s opinions while at the same time, I think you also might be right that D&D were setting up an expectation to be disappointed.

      But I think it’s hard to know what adaptational changes there have been between the book and show.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Typo!

      Adrianacandle: I think a lot of this is hard to say for certain without having the published books to compare against

      *Without having the *unpublished books to compare against 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    65. Jack Bauer 24:
      One of the most brilliant final seasons and finales of all time. I’ll always be grateful.

      Stop talking utter nonsense dude, nothing about this was good, it was totally rushed and ridiculous bc D&D wanted to get off HBO asap to do their star wars films (which they luckily didn‘t get to do after all).

        Quote  Reply

    66. mau,

      There is a picture with Dany clearly pregnant during the early scene with Tyrion in Episode 5.
      Dany was supposed to burn the Red Keep only, than the wildfire hidden all over the city would have ignited. Thus, a chain reaction, thus the city burning.
      It’s also a basic principle of writing. I think it’s called “Chekov’s gun”. You don’t mention cashes of wildfire hidden all over the city, without having them ignite and have an impact. It’s bad writing.
      As it stands, they were irelevant. Dany burned the city anyway, with or without the wildfire.
      (It’s so stupid to burn KL. Your own troops are down there, Jon Snow is down there…).
      But Dany’s story would have been completely different. She would have still been labeled MAD. She already is the Mad king’s daughter, so with any questionable act, the label MAD is easy to place. People down there can easily see her responsible, with all the chaos, a dragon flying above, fire bursting all around, the truth of the events can be “adapted” as it so often is.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Iul,

      Daenerys is not dead. She is now in Drogon’s body.

      Then why did Drogon gently nudge her body?

      She sought the Iron Throne, and obtained it. Her chosen method of obtaining it got her killed. Thus ended her story and character arcs.

      Jon’s story is complete because he’d completely protected the realms of men, and had thus become *both* the greatest Lord Commander of the NW *and* the greatest King In The North ever. He could now retire to the only place he was ever really happy, beyond The Wall.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Adrianacandle,

      But I wasn’t talking about the books. Dany being pregnant in the last season changes her entire mental and emotional state and her relationship with other characters. The point of her arc in the last season was that she is alone and desperate. Child is the symbol of hope. It just doesn’t work there.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Gabriel,

      No, that’s a ridiculous lie created by haters of the final season. D&D have been saying for years that this was a seventy hour television series. And they left Star Wars willingly after their Netflix deal.

      Season 8 was not rushed by any means, it was fast paced. All the plot points were set up in the previous seasons, and D&D managed to bring the show to a phenomenal conclusion.

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    70. Iul,

      “Dany was supposed to burn the Red Keep only, than the wildfire hidden all over the city would have ignited.”

      What is this nonsense? lol

        Quote  Reply

    71. mau: But I wasn’t talking about the books. Dany being pregnant in the last season changes her entire mental and emotional state and her relationship with other characters. The point of her arc in the last season was that she is alone and desperate. Child is the symbol of hope. It just doesn’t work there.

      I’m sorry, that was my mistake 🙁 I completely misread your post! I thought you were saying it wasn’t possible for Dany to be pregnant at all in the books either because of the show (I’m not saying she will be! I just haven’t closed down the possibility) — but I completely misread your post and you’re right, you didn’t mention the books. My apologies again and thanks for clarifying!

      While I don’t think Dany was pregnant in season 8, I think it would have been possible to make a pregnant Dany work with this storyline, especially if something awful happened with her pregnancy, the baby, if she miscarried, etc.

      However, this may have taken up time the show didn’t have.

      But I’d say it’s still true that, as far as the show went, this wasn’t the story they chose to go with.

        Quote  Reply

    72. mau,

      I’ve considered that it was simply a red herring, as that would certainly be an obvious possibility, but if so, it was rather pointless, IMO. To me, there’s a difference between subverting expectations vs. hanging guns only to never fire them.

      We’ll never know. I do find it fun to speculate though.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Iul: Daenerys is not dead. She is now in Drogon’s body.

      I’m sorry to step in here but I don’t think Dany is a dragon warg? I don’t think Dany has warging abilities and I don’t think she can really transfer her soul/consciousness between her body and Drogon’s. She certainly has a connection to her dragons but I don’t think she can warg them.

        Quote  Reply

    74. I’ve been watching some “Red Wedding” and “Jon Snow getting stabbed” reaction videos lately, and it’s starting to get me back into wanting to do a re-watch at some point soon.

      Some of those reactions are priceless and they really hit home how much the show affects all of your senses and brings out such strong emotions when watching.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Mr Derp: Some of those reactions are priceless and they really hit home how much the show affects all of your senses and brings out such strong emotions when watching.

      I remember the screaming! XD Of the viewers, not the characters!

      I distinctly remember Nostalgia Critic doing a bit on his reaction to the Red Wedding at the time — just showing him staring slack-jawed at the screen XD

        Quote  Reply

    76. Adrianacandle: I’m sorry to step in here but I don’t think Dany is a dragon warg? I don’t think Dany has warging abilities and I don’t think she can really transfer her soul/consciousness between her body and Drogon’s. She certainly has a connection to her dragons but I don’t think she can warg them.

      Just wait until Game of Thrones II comes out!

      It was all just a ruse by Bran, Dany, and Drogon. Dany isn’t really dead.

      Dany is going to raise another army in Essos along with the Unsullied/Dothraki and come back stronger than ever riding Drogon with Bran pulling the strings in Westeros.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Adrianacandle,

      I’ve been watching “ur weirdo friend cass” on youtube lately. She’s currently watching Game of Thrones for the very first time and is posting her reactions. I think she’s currently near the end of season 6.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Mr Derp,

      If I’m not wrong GoT made this “reaction video” thing on YT popular in S3. I don’t remember that people watched movies and shows and posted reactions before Game of Thrones.

        Quote  Reply

    79. mau:
      Adrianacandle,

      I mean having her pregnant and thenmiscarriage would be another push to madness. I could see that work but it would maybe be too cruel even for GoT. lol

      Didn’t they also scrap Cersei having a miscarriage in season 7?

        Quote  Reply

    80. mau:
      Mr Derp,

      If I’m not wrong GoT made this “reaction video” thing on YT popular in S3. I don’t remember that people watched movies and shows and posted reactions before Game of Thrones.

      I think you might be right. They’re everywhere now. There’s even reaction videos of the reaction videos!

        Quote  Reply

    81. Mr Derp: Just wait until Game of Thrones II comes out!

      It was all just a ruse by Bran, Dany, and Drogon. Dany isn’t really dead.

      Dany is going to raise another army in Essos along with the Unsullied/Dothraki and come back stronger than ever riding Drogon with Bran pulling the strings in Westeros.

      Oh man, Game of Thrones II… the direct-to-video sequel! 😆Dany and Bran take over the world, introducing a terrifying new team: Dranerysandon!

      I’ve been watching “ur weirdo friend cass” on youtube lately. She’s currently watching Game of Thrones for the very first time and is posting her reactions. I think she’s currently near the end of season 6.

      Oh yeah! That reminds me of this guy, Steve, who did a series called “I Try to Understand Game of Thrones” and started watching, mid-series, without knowing any of the story. It was awesome. It still is awesome!

        Quote  Reply

    82. mau: I mean having her pregnant and then miscarriage would be another push to madness. I could see that work but it would maybe be too cruel even for GoT. lol

      Yeah, it wouldn’t be something I’d love (or even like in the least little bit) and it would be cruel but… 🙁

      Anyway, my apologies again for misreading your post 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    83. If S8 didn’t face such strong backlash I’m sure we would hear a lot of these alternative ideas that they’ve had for the story. We only got (from Dave Hill) information that at some point they wanted Jorah with Jon in that last scene, beyond the Wall, but it just didn’t work. But when they wanted that? We don’t know.

      But now if they said some of these alternative ideas people would scream that they are better than what we got lol

        Quote  Reply

    84. Gabriel: Stop talking utter nonsense dude, nothing about this was good, it was totally rushed and ridiculous bc D&D wanted to get off HBO asap to do their star wars films (which they luckily didn‘t get to do after all).

      Hey, let’s cut Jack Bauer some slack. He’s been through… some things.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Ten Bears: Hey, let’s cut Jack Bauer some slack. He’s been through… some things.

      Reese!!

      (Hey, speaking of Reese Witherspoon, have you seen her new series on Amazon?)

        Quote  Reply

    86. Iul,

      Dany was supposed to burn the Red Keep only, than the wildfire hidden all over the city would have ignited. Thus, a chain reaction, thus the city burning.

      During Dany’s torching of KL, we get at least one Cersei’s-eye view of the spreading devastation. Small green explosions appear amongst the large swaths of dragonfire. These are the Mad King’s caches of wildfire, ignited by Drogon’s flames. The wildfire is clearly not as destructive as are the dragon flames. (Cersei actually appears jealous of the difference in flame size!) Most of the city burns with dragon fire, not wildfire.

      It’s so stupid to burn KL. Your own troops are down there, Jon Snow is down there…

      It was not Dany being stupid, it was Dany deciding she is a Targ’, that she, like every Targ’, rules by Fire & Blood, and therefore anyone who gets in her way, for any reason at all, will suffer a fiery death for even momentarily defying her absolute, unquestionable rule. She was never a hero in the making, but always a tyrant on the rise. (Jon rejected her, so he can burn in her hell as well, for all she cares in that moment.)

      There is a picture with Dany clearly pregnant during the early scene with Tyrion in Episode 5.

      If you have an image of pregnant Dany from “The Bells,” could you please provide a link?

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    87. Ten Bears: No. I have not seen Reese Witherspoon’s new Amazon series. What’s it about?

      It’s called ‘Little Fires Everywhere’ and also stars Kerry Washington. Here’s a brief blurb from Wikipedia:

      Set in the Cleveland suburb of Shaker Heights, Ohio during the late 1990s, it features Witherspoon and Washington as mothers from different socioeconomic backgrounds.

      So Witherspoon’s and Washington’s characters are both mothers (Witherspoon’s character, Elena, has four kids while Washington’s character, Mia, has one daughter in the same age range as Elena’s kids). Elena is of more affluent means, Mia is struggling to get by. It’s kind of a series about motherhood. Elena and Mia are paralleled a lot.

      (Also, I was mistaken. I said it was an Amazon series because that’s where I watched it but it seems to be a Hulu series.)

      Here’s the trailer!

        Quote  Reply

    88. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      ” If you have an image of pregnant Dany from “The Bells,” could you please provide a link?”

      Yeah, I’ve never heard of a knocked up Dany image either!
      (And I wish they’d deleted the whole Cersei/Tyrion “Your baby, your baby, your baby” nonsense…)
      Now, Arya getting morning sickness on the high seas… That could have been fun. 👶🏻

        Quote  Reply

    89. Adrianacandle,

      Ten Bears,

      I highly recommend Little Fires Everywhere. Reese Witherspoon’s character swims in her environment of White Privilege, utterly oblivious to how it defines her entire worldview. With her privileged condescension, she offers a home to Kerry Washington’s character, and all manner of painful situations ensue. Although set in 1997, it’s a great story for our times. Like Game of Thrones, no character is truly pure or innocent, and hidden motives drive the story. It also has many “high-thread count” scenes, at least to this viewer.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: I highly recommend Little Fires Everywhere. Reese Witherspoon’s character swims in her environment of White Privilege, utterly oblivious to how it defines her entire worldview. With her privileged condescension, she offers a home to Kerry Washington’s character, and all manner of painful situations ensue. Although set in 1997, it’s a great story for our times. Like Game of Thrones, no character is truly pure or innocent, and hidden motives drive the story. It also has many “high-thread count” scenes, at least to this viewer.

      Yup! I thought it was pretty great too! I also recommend this series 🙂 I’d love to say more, I have a lot of thoughts, but I don’t want to spoil anything.

      Tensor did a great job of summing up the show though, much better than I did! Tensor’s summary gives more information about the feel of the show.

      Also, I think they got the feel of 1997 right as far as I could tell. I was a kid at that time so I didn’t have a great understanding of world events or anything happening outside my little bubble but the child and teen culture feels pretty on point in Little Fires Everywhere — everything down to talking about Buffy on the phone!

        Quote  Reply

    91. Ten Bears,

      Oh! Another off-topic tidbit that concerns both Reese Witherspoon and Clueless:

      Reese Witherspoon: You know what, one thing that is public that came out last year — I auditioned so hard for Clueless. And I didn’t get it.
      Kerry Washington: Really?
      Witherspoon: I auditioned so hard for it.
      Washington: I did too.
      Witherspoon: Did you?
      Washington: I did. That would have been a different– we should do like–
      Witherspoon: We could do like a whole–
      Washington: –Like a remake like, yes.
      Witherspoon: Recreate a scene from Clueless.
      Washington: Yes with us.
      Witherspoon: That would be so fun!

      (Another Clueless tidbit is that Sarah Michelle Gellar was also in the running for a role in the movie but she was on All My Children at the the time and they wouldn’t let her out to do it. Clueless was — per SMG’s words — the only thing she wanted to do at the time!)

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    92. Mr Derp,

      Why make Jon be the first person to question whether Mirri was a reliable source of information?

      To remind viewers that while Tyrion, Varys, Grey Worm, Missandei, and (most of all!) Jorah knew perfectly well how much sex Dany had been enjoying back in Essos, Jon had absolutely no idea. (Note that Dany doesn’t tell Jon about all the evidence she’s, um, collected to show Mirri was probably correct.)

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    93. Adrianacandle: I’m sorry to step in here but I don’t think Dany is a dragon warg? I don’t think Dany has warging abilities and I don’t think she can really transfer her soul/consciousness between her body and Drogon’s. She certainly has a connection to her dragons but I don’t think she can warg them.

      Of course she does not… Orrel can warg into that bird (right befone Jon Snow killed him – with a pretty similar action like in Dany’s case), but Dany can’t. Well, in the show she can’t, but they hint at it. That is why the show ends her story like it does.
      In the books, Jon “moves” into Ghost – it is obvious, and Dany will do so as well, with Drogon.
      Also, in the scene in Meereen, Drogon is acting wildly – to the extreme, he is hurt…until Dany taints him. That’s when they bond, that’s when she takes control and that’s when…oh yes…what do you know… they fly together. Pretty similar, right ?

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    94. Iul,

      As I’ve already written, above, it really doesn’t matter if we assume Dany was pregnant or not. Jon’s regicide ended the question.

      Game of Thrones | Season 8 Episode 5 | Game Revealed (HBO) – 5:11

      Well, that’s from the documentary, and I can’t recall if they actually used those images in the episode. A viewer could infer that she appears pregnant, but in the scene Dany is feeling sick from betrayal and so is slumping against a pillar, so the image could be read either way.

      Understanding Daenerys’s story is not for everyone.

      You’re the one claiming she could warg into Drogon. Evidence? (We saw Bran warging into his dire wolf.)

      I’m not trying to convince you of anything. You are beyond convincing.

      I’m always willing to revisit my interpretations of any and all aspects of Game of Thrones. You’re the one making wild claims on little to no evidence.

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    95. Ummm…
      Was Kamala Harris channeling Arya?

      “I know a killer when I see one.”
      – Arya Stark S8

      “I know a predator when I see one.”
      – Kamala Harris

      #ASNAWP

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    96. Iul: Of course she does not… Orrel can warg into that bird (right befone Jon Snow killed him – with a pretty similar action like in Dany’s case), but Dany can’t. Well, in the show she can’t, but they hint at it. That is why the show ends her story like it does.
      In the books, Jon “moves” into Ghost – it is obvious, and Dany will do so as well, with Drogon.
      Also, in the scene in Meereen, Drogon is acting wildly – to the extreme, he is hurt…until Dany taints him. That’s when they bond, that’s when she takes control and that’s when…oh yes…what do you know… they fly together. Pretty similar, right ?

      I wouldn’t say that’s similar or that this means Dany has warging capabilities. Dany’s able to calm Drogon, she certainly has a bond with him, and in trying to calm Drogon, she climbs on him and he flies off with her — but she can’t move into his mind, consciously or unconsciously, or I think it would have been demonstrated by now, at least in the books (as Arya is a powerful warg in the books but not in the show). I don’t think there’s any hinting that Dany is a warg in either the books or show though.

      Meanwhile, Orell and Jon are both wargs, giving them this ability. With Orell, it’s conscious. With Jon, it’s unconscious. Dany has never demonstrated warging abilities either way.

      I’m not against Dany having this ability but there’s no evidence that she does.

      Ten Bears,

      Great illustration!

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    97. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,

      Those are beautiful — the first one, especially, is very manga-like. I think these would go GREAT in your calendar!! 🙂

      Yup. That’s what I’m saving them for. I’m looking primarily for high quality images from the show; every now and then I come across illustrations I like too.

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    98. Ten Bears: Yup. That’s what I’m saving them for. I’m looking primarily for high quality images from the show; every now and then I come across illustrations I like too.

      I think that’s a good way to do it, especially when you can keep your eye open for images as you go along your internet travels. You can unexpectedly find some really unique images that way.

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    99. Adrianacandle,

      Here’s an illustration of Cersei and dying Joffrey in which Cersei looks like Lena Headey

      L_hvowSN1YBVp3WQAmKhV9TRrtIaB1wnwtfMnVlANaE.jpg 1,000×1,000 pixels

      Edit. I don’t think the link copied correctly. I’ll try again later.

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    100. Well, how the show ended whether people loved it, hated it or are indifferent is done now. If Mr Martin hopefully recovers his muse and ASOIAF gets finished one day we can decide whether he does a better job of it or not. I still think the ending will roughly be the same. Any guesses I made how the story would develop usually turned out to be wrong. If we are thinking about tinfoil hat theories while this clip has nothing to do with ASOIAF I think it’s quite funny (thanks to Placeboing and Alex Jones https://youtu.be/dvf6gz58xnI

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    101. @ Adrianacandle @ 20.8.2020 @ 5:18pm:

      Oh yeah! That reminds me of this guy, Steve, who did a series called “I Try to Understand Game of Thrones” and started watching, mid-series, without knowing any of the story. It was awesome. It still is awesome!

      LOL, that’s how I got into GOT! 😀

      I’d heard good things about the show, so when our national broadcaster was showing S3 for free in Jan 2014, I binge watched it. I was immediately hooked, though it was a bit confusing to say the least! 😀 Well, I’d read brief episode summaries of S1 and S2 on Wikipedia so I sort of knew who was who, but still…

      I then got all the five books published to date and read them before watching S4 and all subsequent seasons in real time – the only time I’ve forked out money for a cable subscribtion for two or three months each year.

      In 2014, I also started to get involved with the online community around the show and the books. I think my first foray came when reading book 3 (ASOS), it suddenly came to me that R+L=J. I went online to impart this momentous revelation – only to find out people had been on about it since the late 1990s, LOL! 😀

      WotW was the fan community for the show I liked the best. All the news, tidbits, all the comments, all the anticipation and speculation, the positive vibe. I spent countless hours reading comments and commenting myself, engaging in all kinds of discussions with dozens and dozens of enthusiastic, witty, funny, knowledgeable people. It really enhanced my GOT fan experience! Thank you!

      Things started getting a bit more fractitious even here towards the last couple of seasons and especially after S8 finished. I was slightly disappointed with S7 and especially S8, I think they could’ve been done better (e.g. not leaving too much to viewer imagination – I don’t want to be spoonfed but a few more pointers wouldn’t have gone amiss). I’m not unhappy about the overall ending but the way it was arrived at.

      All in all, it’s still one of my all time favourite TV shows. There was some faltering in the last couple of seasons but not enough for me to “hate” the show – also just enough for me to not “love” it unconditionally. – What’s with this black-and-white polarising crap anyway? If you don’t love everything about a character/show, you’re a “hater”?!? Whatever happened to nuance?

      Anyway, I’ve mostly moved on but I’ll keep an eye out for The House of the Dragon and give it a go.

      Incidentally, a few years ago when HBO was floating ideas about a prequel show, I was all for the Dance of the Dragons (Targaryen civil war around 170 years before GOT) because it’s got all the court intrigue, the compelling characters, the potential for spectacle… I only hesitated because of the CGI budget, with so many dragons. But as technology progresses, CGI becomes more affordable.

      I still fairly regularly visit this site but rarely comment nowadays – most of the comments seem to be about ASNAWP, anyway 😉 and I’m not a fangirl though I think her character especially in the books is an interesting one. (Sorry, Ten Bears, couldn’t resist an old, good-natured little dig at you. 🙂 )

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    102. As to Nikolaj and his comments. He is underrated as an actor (I prefer his acting style to the more obvious one of his on-screen brother Tyrion, Peter Dinklage) and he seems like an all-around great guy, a nice person, a gentleman.

      It seems he loved working on GOT, he loved playing Jaime, as any actor would – what’s not to like about playing a character with good and bad in him, inner conflicts, and depths of despair and moments of triumph – which quickly turn to ash.

      I remember back in the day, Nikolaj was one of the biggest Jaime+Brienne shippers, along with a goodly proportion of the fans, myself included. But he, and I, and most realistic Jaime+Brienne shippers knew, with regret, that it wasn’t to be. This is GRRM, not Disney.

      Jaime dying with Cersei was the only way it could go. . It might happen slightly differently in the books (valonquar prophecy) but the end will be the same. They came into this world together, they’ll leave this world together… Though the leaving might not be the confirmation of their unity they seemed to expect earlier.

      Anyways, some show watchers not happy about how the show ended (especially with Dany) are concocting their own endings, which “will be vindicated” when GRRM publishes the last 2 (or 3) books in the series. Basically writing fanfiction in the absence of GRRM’s books.

      I do that, too, as regards to Jaime and Brienne. 😀 In my mind, they both somehow survive, retire to Tarth (Brienne is the heir), have lots of babies and live happily ever after! 😀

      But I know that’s highly unlikely (as in, close to nil) to happen in the books. Jaime and Brienne were a glimpse of what might’ve been, were it not for one of Jaime’s fatal flaws, his twisted love for Cersei. In the books as they stand, he seems to have abandoned Cersei but I don’t think that’s the last of it. I think he’ll last-ditch try to save her, maybe not as a lover but as a brother. The outcome will be the same, that they die together.

      Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, an intelligent actor who embodied Jaime for us close on to a decade, has a deep understanding of the character he played. He, as a person, as a fan, might ship Jaime and Brienne (especially because he and Gwendolyn Christie had amazing rapport) but as an actor well-versed in the rules of storytelling knew Jaime and Brienne could never be.

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    103. talvikorppi,

      You and Adrianacandle have similar experiences to mine. In my case, my spouse introduced me to Game of Thrones, by showing me the start of the first episode. Up until I met her, I had been a lifelong bachelor, and had watched TV only for sports and news. I had not read fiction in at least a decade, preferring history books and engineering journals. I’d heard of Game of Thrones — who hadn’t? — but it was “just television,” and I had ignored it. (When I bought my hardcover copy of The Plantagenets, I specifically and consciously thought of it as a better use of my time than watching some made-up ‘history’ on TV.)

      The cold open of Winter Is Coming looked good, but what really caught my eye was the title credit, “Based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.” I had no idea who he was, but back in my fiction-reading days, I’d read some English translations of Icelandic sagas, and knew he’d chosen a hugely pretentious title for his books. I therefore had very high expectations for the show, and expected to find them unmet. Bad fantasy productions certainly outnumber good ones by a larger margin, at least in my experience.

      Well, I was very happy to be proven wrong, and my expectations were more than merely satisfied. We started watching after Season Four had completed, and by the time Season Five started, I’d watched all forty episodes three times each, in order. After Season Five ended, I bought a set of the five books at Costco, and have read most of them — by the time I was slogging through the fifth, I had other demands upon my time, and GRRM had let the story drag considerably by then. It remains the most recent book of fiction I have read.

      I found this fan site around the time Season Five was about to arrive, and the posts and comments here have greatly increased my enjoyment of the show. I’m grateful to all of the posters and commenters for giving me more ways to consider the story, plot, and overall spectacle of the television show.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      I’m so glad to find others who came to this fandom sort of sideways. Through some season of the show, then the books.

      I dislike those few in the book fandom who disdain anybody for only getting into the books in the late 00’s, early 10’s because of the show (like I did), or show fans who disparage all who didn’t follow and love the show from get go to the end.

      Nuance is a thing badly missing in most online discussions nowadays.

      Maybe I’m old, an old-fashioned socially liberal soul, to try to discuss things on their merits, pros and cons, not “feelings”, which are wholly subjective.

      The social media reaction to S8, the end of GOT, was a prime example of highly individualised (almost narcissistic) social media frenzy. “I didn’t get what I wanted… so it was all wrong!”

      Like… how entitled are some fans?

      Art isn’t made to appease fans. Popular culture must be popular enough to pay its way but it can aspire to a higher level, art that is uncomfortable, makes us think of ourselves in an uncomfortable way. We cheer for obvious protagonists, the “good guys”. But what if they do “bad” things?

      We thirst for some vague sort of “revenge” for our favourite family, but seeing it play out in the show, a mass murderer… Was it sweet or leave a bad taste in your mouth?

      I’ve really liked the TV show GOT for their production values right from the start. The writing, the story up until S6. Production values continued, but for me, writing for S7 and S8 wasn’t all that.

      The show landed pretty well. It could’ve been better but it wasn’t too bad. It was pretty good. Not perfect, though.

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    105. talvikorppi,

      Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Oh, I like this topic! Thanks to you both for sharing how you got into this show and the books! 🙂

      Technically, I am a (to use Ten Bear’s word) pre-books fan 🙂 I was in the Netherlands doing my internship when the first episode of Game of Thrones aired. I was staying with a close friend at the time and her boyfriend had the episode available to watch so I watched the pilot the next day. When I had finished the episode, I looked up the series afterward and saw it was based on a series of books. The day after I watched the pilot, I bought AGOT as an eBook for my phone and the rest in paperback (to help conserve power on my poor, frequently-dropped, taped-up phone…).

      By the time the second episode aired, I had finished reading AGOT and was spending all my breaks and a lot of my evenings in cafes reading the following three books. When the fifth book came out that July, I was in the hospital… and I remember hurling the book at the wall when I finished a certain final Jon chapter XD;; And I swore never to touch this series again before starting to rage-cross stitch (my hospital activity).

      So that obviously stuck. I started lurking on this site between seasons 4 and 5 but it was only after season 6 aired that I began posting in November 2016, not in small part because I really enjoyed the community here!

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    106. talvikorppi,

      “…I still fairly regularly visit this site but rarely comment nowadays – most of the comments seem to be about ASNAWP, anyway 😉 and I’m not a fangirl though I think her character especially in the books is an interesting one. (Sorry, Ten Bears, couldn’t resist an old, good-natured little dig at you. 🙂 )”

      So relieved to hear that you still regularly visit this site though you rarely comment nowadays.

      For your benefit, I’ll be sure to keep posting about Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess™️ and A Song of Arya and Sandor. 😁

      ™️ talvikorppi (2018)
      ASNAWP ™️ talvikorppi (2018)

      https://s.hdnux.com/photos/41/51/36/8820666/3/gallery_medium.jpg

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    107. Ten Bears:
      talvikorppi,

      “…I still fairly regularly visit this site but rarely comment nowadays – most of the comments seem to be about ASNAWP, anyway 😉 and I’m not a fangirl though I think her character especially in the books is an interesting one. (Sorry, Ten Bears, couldn’t resist an old, good-natured little dig at you. 🙂 )”

      So relieved to hear that you still regularly visit this site though you rarely comment nowadays.

      For your benefit, I’ll be sure to keep posting about Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess™️ and A Song of Arya and Sandor. 😁

      ™️ talvikorppi (2018)ASNAWP ™️ talvikorppi (2018)

      https://s.hdnux.com/photos/41/51/36/8820666/3/gallery_medium.jpg

      Haha, Ten Bearsy, I knew I could count on you to respond to anything ASNAWPy, it’s your thing, haha.

      Like I’ve said many times, I like Arya but I’m a bit worried. I’m a book reader, and I don’t like how the show made her storyline about revenge, and glorified it. If the books ever come out, it’s gonna be more nuanced. Like, showing us revenge is a BAD thing. Even when our darling does it.

      But we must wait and see. And examine our own impulses and inclinations.

      GRRM writes “fantasy”, “genre fiction”. But forget dragons and magic, he is asking us all about human moral dilemmas. That’s why his fantasy books stand above most other fantasy books. GRRM’s books are addressing the human condition more forthrightly than most fantasy writers dare to do.

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    108. talvikorppi,

      Art isn’t made to appease fans. Popular culture must be popular enough to pay its way but it can aspire to a higher level, art that is uncomfortable, makes us think of ourselves in an uncomfortable way. We cheer for obvious protagonists, the “good guys”. But what if they do “bad” things?

      Thank you for writing this, and so well. I find it interesting how three long-format American television shows: The Sopranos, Mad Men, and Game of Thrones all featured protagonists who could rate as anything from anti-heroes to full villains (Don Draper, Tony Soprano, Ned Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Bran Stark, and of course Dany) and yet established huge, loyal audiences. Each show boldly redefined what that televised genre (gangster epic, period drama, fantasy) could be. We Americans in particular have a culture of unrestrained hero-worship, and yet we seem ‘drawn to the dark side,’ as a famous American movie director once put it.

      The social media reaction to S8, the end of GOT, was a prime example of highly individualised (almost narcissistic) social media frenzy. “I didn’t get what I wanted… so it was all wrong!”

      Like… how entitled are some fans?

      Again, thank you for writing this; I agree completely. As Ray Bradbury noted about Fahrenheit 451, “If you don’t like my stories, go write your own.” It’s not as if GRRM and D&D had created 71.5 hours of standard fantasy fare and then suddenly had Dany torch a city. D&D, following Martin, relentlessly set up standard story tropes and then knocked them down, surprising most of the audience each time:

      + It’s a road-trip buddy story! Ned and Robert are getting the band back together, and will go clean up King’s Landing.

      + It’s a solo heroic tale! Ned will clean it up by himself after his friend dies.

      + It’s a family-redemption story! Robb will avenge the death of his father.

      [Many more possible examples here…]

      + It’s a standard fantasy epic! The Army of the Dead is the final villain.

      + It’s a feel-good Hollywood story! Jon and Dany will live happily ever after, riding into the sunset on their dragons.

      How anyone got through that entire list, and yet somehow still believed anything like that last one, remains a mystery to me.

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    109. just testing…I don’t see to be able to post under my usual tron79 at the moment… Tin foil theories may follow…hummm

      Edit by Sue : you typoed your email.

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    110. talvikorppi,

      ”Like I’ve said many times, I like Arya but I’m a bit worried. I’m a book reader, and I don’t like how the show made her storyline about revenge, and glorified it. If the books ever come out, it’s gonna be more nuanced. Like, showing us revenge is a BAD thing. Even when our darling does it.”

      Whether or not it was effective, I thought the lesson of the last Arya & Sandor scene was supposed to be “Revenge is a BAD thing.”

      https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/95/b7/7695b728179a31d540542f7d48f765a9.jpg

      [P.S. “Our darling.” 🥰]

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    111. Gabriel,

      Ok dude D&D said back in 2013 or 2014 that they planned on doing around 70 episodes. They ended up doing 73. They got the Star Wars gig around 2018 or so, that’s when I heard about it – when they were in the middle of making S8. With all that information in mind, please explain to me how they rushed the GoT ending for SW?

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    112. Sue. It looks like even when I don’t have a typo in my email it seems to be blocking my home IP. I’m posting this from my cell carrier to see if it goes through on a different IP.

      Can you see if this IP is blocked.
      216.196.163.216

      Thanks.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Adrianacandle: I wouldn’t say that’s similar or that this means Dany has warging capabilities.

      You have to enter the mind of the author. How he builds up the scene. He creates a situation, Drogon is wild, than Drogon gets injured, so he’s acting out of control – that’s to be expected. Than Dany taints him and they fly together. So the meaning is: “Dany takes control of Drogon”.
      The same scene in the show can be resumed to: “Drogon saves Daenerys”.
      The scenes (book and show) are complementary.
      “Dany takes control of Drogon and Drogon saves Dany”. This is quality foreshadowing.

      The same can be applied to the house of the undying visions (book and show). They have the same meaning.

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    114. I don’t really have my brain in gear at the moment so can’t think of a fan cast for Daemon. I know fan casts don’t always get the part though some people had mentioned the folk who ended up as Brienne and Doran (I know show Doran and book Doran were different characters really as book Doran was a man with a plan).

      On a slightly different tack, I came across a series of videos by a pleating company showing how they made the pleating template and then eventually pleated one of Dany’s cloaks. This is just the first part showing the preparation of part of the template. Very intricate and time-consuming. I bet it cost a pretty penny.https://youtu.be/kehczQ0T8KM

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    115. Iul: You have to enter the mind of the author. How he builds up the scene. He creates a situation, Drogon is wild, than Drogon gets injured, so he’s acting out of control – that’s to be expected. Than Dany taints him and they fly together. So the meaning is: “Dany takes control of Drogon”.
      The same scene in the show can be resumed to: “Drogon saves Daenerys”.
      The scenes (book and show) are complementary.
      “Dany takes control of Drogon and Drogon saves Dany”. This is quality foreshadowing.

      The same can be applied to the house of the undying visions (book and show). They have the same meaning.

      I don’t think this is foreshadowing an ability to warg (if this is what you are saying?) because while Dany and Drogon have a strong bond, Dany isn’t warging Drogon (and I don’t think there was any indication it happens in the finale either when Drogon takes her body away, nothing in the script direction, interviews, or on-screen). She still cannot enter Drogon’s consciousness/mind, which is warging (skinchanging).

      There’s not really any indication or demonstration that Dany’s mind jumped into Drogon’s body in a warging capacity in any book passages or show scenes, I don’t think this is foreshadowing Dany warging Drogon.

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    116. What was I going on about…just a minute a ago?

      Shaman Bran. Will get back…on this same topic.

      Any sign of Chili? Maybe just busy though. Alive but busy. I will go with that.

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    117. talvikorppi:
      Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      Art isn’t made to appease fans. Popular culture must be popular enough to pay its way but it can aspire to a higher level, art that is uncomfortable, makes us think of ourselves in an uncomfortable way. We cheer for obvious protagonists, the “good guys”. But what if they do “bad” things?

      We thirst for some vague sort of “revenge” for our favourite family, but seeing it play out in the show, a mass murderer… Was it sweet or leave a bad taste in your mouth?

      I’ve really liked the TV show GOT for their production values right from the start. The writing, the story up until S6. Production values continued, but for me, writing for S7 and S8 wasn’t all that.

      The show landed pretty well. It could’ve been better but it wasn’t too bad. It was pretty good. Not perfect, though.

      Lots to agree with here.

      I do not know if you saw “The Wire”. That series is excellent, complicated TV. Actually more of a visual novel.

      Wire was Art. As perfect as many have seen on TV.

      A lot of your post makes me think of Wire and other series. For me (as with many) GOT was coulda, shoulda, woulda. Alas, the writing for S7 & S8 was not the strongest.

      The majority of TV is just passing entertainment and that is fine. GOT was very well produced and that is apprecaited by me.

      But alas, time passes and we look to new dramas.

      Real-life these days are fascinating enough – not many TV dramas can match Yr 2020. And we are not done yet!

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    118. Adrianacandle,

      There’s not really any indication or demonstration that Dany’s mind jumped into Drogon’s body in a warging capacity in any book passages or show scenes, I don’t think this is foreshadowing Dany warging Drogon.

      Agreed, and I’d like to amplify to Iul: there’s a huge difference between a dragon bonding with a rider, and a human actually getting inside the head of an animal. The show demonstrated warging with Bran — he could even warg into Hodor! — and we could see warg’s mind’s-eye view as he controlled the animal. The show also demonstrated Dany bonding with Drogon, and (to a far lesser extent) Jon bonding with Rhaegal. The latter bonds were made to look like a horse and rider situation, not a mental “skinchanging”.

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    119. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending: Agreed, and I’d like to amplify to Iul: there’s a huge difference between a dragon bonding with a rider, and a human actually getting inside the head of an animal. The show demonstrated warging with Bran — he could even warg into Hodor! — and we could see warg’s mind’s-eye view as he controlled the animal. The show also demonstrated Dany bonding with Drogon, and (to a far lesser extent) Jon bonding with Rhaegal. The latter bonds were made to look like a horse and rider situation, not a mental “skinchanging”.

      I agree but I’d also say that the Dany-Drogon bond is probably deeper than a connection between a horse and rider (which also, knowing some equestrians, can be very deep). In the books, Dany seems to be able to feel when Drogon is hurt sometimes, which makes me think that she has a very strong empathetic connection to him.

      Still, I’d say that’s not the same as skinchanging for the reasons you’ve said and Dany never actually mentally enters Drogon’s mind. She never skinchanges into Drogon as a warg does.

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    120. Iul:
      Adrianacandle: I’m sorry to step in here but I don’t think Dany is a dragon warg? I don’t think Dany has warging abilities and I don’t think she can really transfer her soul/consciousness between her body and Drogon’s. She certainly has a connection to her dragons but I don’t think she can warg them.

      Of course she does not… Orrel can warg into that bird (right befone Jon Snow killed him – with a pretty similar action like in Dany’s case), but Dany can’t. Well, in the show she can’t, but they hint at it. That is why the show ends her story like it does.
      In the books, Jon “moves” into Ghost – it is obvious, and Dany will do so as well, with Drogon.
      Also, in the scene in Meereen, Drogon is acting wildly – to the extreme, he is hurt…until Dany taints him. That’s when they bond, that’s when she takes control and that’s when…oh yes…what do you know… they fly together. Pretty similar, right ?

      i just read a post that says it wasn’t good to mix book and show. just forgot who wrote this.

      anyway:
      – Jon doesn’t move into Ghost in the books. he’s having wolf dreams.
      – Dany is the mother of dragons. not the average mom one could think of, right? why add warging abilities to a mom-child relationship that is already special?
      – in the books, she tames Drogon with a whip. ask Quentin Martell if a whip and some commands help anyone not being Targ enough tame Dragons. the traditional Targ-Dragon bond was not made in the arena, Drogon just got a reminder of certain family values. and one of them is surely that the Dragon of any Targ is loyal and obidient to it’s respective Targ.
      – how can you be sure Dany will, i quote, “move” into Drogon? be it by dreams like Jon or by actively taking him over? have you taken over GRRM’s writing job?
      – the killing of Dany by Jon was similar to the killing of Orell? let’s say you don’t mix book and show here. in the books i have, Jon is pretty much dead right now while Dany is still alive. ok, let’s say, some show content slipped into your book related post.

      still, could you provide me the link to Jon kissing Orell before stabbing him?

      thanks in advance.

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    121. Question(s)

      The article posted on August 19, 2020, citing another source, describes the casting call for Daemon Targaryen as follows:

      ”The character description reads:

      PRINCE DAEMON TARGARYEN (Male, 40-50) – The younger brother to King Viserys, Daemon wasn’t born with “naked ambition” for the throne despite being in line for it. He’s less methodical and more impetuous. Not to mention easily bored…stumbling from one distraction to the next with the subconscious yet singular obsession with earning the love and acceptance of his brother the king. Most of Daemon’s joy is found at sword-point. But even as the most experienced warrior of his time, he vacillates between vile and heroic, making him the true rogue of the series.

      SERIES LEAD. OPTIONS ESSENTIAL *This role is currently scheduled to film between January – December 2021*

      Game of Thrones ceased using real character names for casting calls many seasons before the end, so the lack of a pseudonym for Prince Daemon may cast some doubt on the veracity of this casting call…”

      • Q1: Do we know anything further about the veracity of this purported casting call for Daemon Targaryen? It does seem awfully specific (e.g., character’s age and lead role), though that detail could’ve been inserted to lend credibility to a fabrication.
      So, has this “casting call” been verified?

      • Q2: Would it be out of the ordinary to disseminate a single casting call for one character, without any others? While there’s no way of knowing how many “lead” or “supporting” roles HotD will have, I’ve got to assume there will be at least four or five major roles for lead actresses and actors.

      • Q2A: [Grammarians and Stannis channelers please weigh in…]: Are the noun “actor” and the plural noun “actors” now considered gender neutral, such that “actors” now embraces male and female thespians? I’d prefer that “actor” and “actors” be gender neutral so that I don’t have to spell out “actresses and actors” each time I refer to the cast of a show, except if a description is gender-specific.
      Lately I’ve noticed the words “actor” and “actors” to be used to encompass both sexes.
      Any thoughts?

      • Q3: What does “Options Essential” mean? I am guessing that it refers to a requirement that the actor commit to multiple seasons in the event the show is renewed beyond the first season. (Unlike, say, Daario 1.0 and Daario 2.0, or Gregor 1.0, Gregor 2.0, and Gregor 3.0, replacing a lead actor would be quite jarring.
      Actually, for me, the succession of Gregors took me out of the “immersion” somewhat: I wanted Sandor to face off against the hothead he confronted in S1 when he saved Loras, rather than the steroid-enhanced strongman we first saw in S4 butchering scrawny guys to practice for Tyrion’s trial by combat, in which Tyrion was ultimately represented by Oberyn.)

      Anyway, is “Options Essential” an industry term meaning that an actor must commit to giving the producers an option to require the actor to continue playing the role for a designated number of seasons if the series is renewed beyond its first season? I could see how a “big name” actor might be reluctant to agree to such an option since availability for series filming likely precludes taking on film roles unless such film jobs can be started and completed during the show’s relatively brief off-season.

      It’s my recollection that the Daario 1.0 actor [I forget his name] wanted out of GoT – and got out of GoT – to pursue movie roles, e.g., the villain in “Deadpool.” By contrast, I seem to recall that Natalie Dormer was forced to pass on some plum film roles because of her commitment to playing Margaery. (I love Natalie Dormer and liked her portrayal of Margaery; it’s also my understanding that the role of show! Margaery was expanded from that of book! Margaery… perhaps because of favorable fan reaction to Natalie Dormer’s portrayal???)

      Q4: Are we [i.e., WotW fandom] going to engage in fancasting based on the (meager) description that the actor playing Daemon Targaryen will be about 40-50 years old, and that the character will be “the most experienced warrior of his time, [who] vacillates between vile and heroic, making him the true rogue of the series”?

      Q4A: In that regard, is Daemon supposed to be a fair-skinned, silver-haired guy? I’m not familiar with his physical description, if any, in GRRM’s books-based lore.

      Q4B: Also, the illustration at the top of the posted article seems to depict a silver-haired Daemon Targaryen next to a cigarette smoking dragon in the foreground, while up on a dais or elevated platform there appears to be a king? flanked by two women. Though it’s hard to make out details, those three characters in the background don’t appear to have silver hair.
      Do we know who those three characters (i.e., a king? + two wives or two sisters?) are supposed to be? Also, is silver hair supposed to be unique to “pure-bred” (incestuous) Targaryens?

      Q4C: I can think of a few 40-50 year old actors I could envision playing a “rogue” who is both “vile and heroic.” Yet, if ”[t]his role is currently scheduled to film between January – December 2021”, that timetable might very well exclude any U.S.-based actors due to pandemic-related restrictions on travel from the U.S. to many European countries.
      If the casting call is genuine, do we know (yet) where filming will take place?

      Q4C: Though I am a pre-books fan, dark-haired Lena Headey inhabited the role of Cersei even though Lannisters were supposed to be blonde. The blonde wigs sufficed. Also, even though Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) and Jaime (Nikolaj Coster Waldau) sported blonde hair in S1, after that the show seemed to ditch the blonde locks requirement and both Lannister brothers’ actors had their (natural) brown hair.
      Is it safe to assume that HotD won’t limit itself to Scandinavian-looking actors when casting Daemon, and that if necessary they can slap a blonde or silver wig on an actor?

      Q4C [Completely irrelevant, frivolous commentary 😬]: After reading descriptions of book! Rhaegar as an impossibly handsome, silver-haired dreamboat, I was somewhat underwhelmed by the stringy-haired shlub in GoT’s flashback scene of Rhaegar marrying Lyanna. [My first impression was: “C’mon, man! It’s your wedding! At least shampoo your hair, use conditioner, and brush it out!”]
      No sleight against the actor intended; I’m just curious: Was the show’s portrayal of Rhaegar consistent with the books! description?

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    122. death by chickenfire,

      – I agree it’s dangerous to mix-and-match show! canon and book! canon, particularly since the show diverged substantially from the books after S4, and because there has been a total vacuum of book! canon since Big G left off 9+ years ago.

      – Your reply (to lul?) asked: ”still, could you provide me the link to Jon kissing Orell before stabbing him?”
      Wait. Did I miss something? Did someone suggest that Jon kissed Orell before stabbing him?
      I know Jon kissed Dany before stabbing her. But Orell??? Jon did not like that jealous pr*ck.
      As I recall, on the show at least, Jon taunted Orell (e.g., with something like, “you were right, I’ve always been a crow”) before stabbing (?) him with his sword. Was there a homoerotic subtext in the rivalry between Jon and Orell in the books?

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    123. Ten Bears: Wait. Did I miss something? Did someone suggest that Jon kissed Orell before stabbing him?
      I know Jon kissed Dany before stabbing her. But Orell??? Jon did not like that jealous pr*ck.
      As I recall, on the show at least, Jon taunted Orell (e.g., with something like, “you were right, I’ve always been a crow”) before stabbing (?) him with his sword. Was there a homoerotic subtext in the rivalry between Jon and Orell in the books?

      No, I don’t think anyone suggested Jon kissed Orell or had a relationship with him (and it’s not that case in the books either, Jon barely knew the guy — far less than he did in the show). I think the only connection Iul made between the two (and Jon) was that Orell’s consciousness could move into his eagle upon his death, Jon’s consciousness may have moved into Ghost upon his death at the end of ADWD, and I think Iul is proposing Dany did the same. However, my position is that Dany hasn’t demonstrated any warging abilities while Jon and Orell are wargs.

      Jon killed Orell in the books when Qhorin, Jon, and the ranging party ambushed the wildling group in ACOK. Jon didn’t even know his name until Ygritte told Jon later on. Orell had already been warged into his eagle at the time because he was scouting for Night’s Watch rangers so it’s said part of Orell is stuck in the eagle.

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    124. death by chickenfire: Jon doesn’t move into Ghost in the books. he’s having wolf dreams.

      I believe, in wolf dreams, Jon’s consciousness does temporarily move into Ghost for the duration, albeit it’s accidental and not deliberate.

      I think the purpose of Iul drawing a connection between Orell’s death and Dany’s death was that Orell’s consciousness moved into his eagle upon Jon stabbing him, which is what Iul is proposing Dany has done with Drogon. (If I’m incorrect, Iul, my apologies and please correct me!) Otherwise, I’d say there are quite a few differences between the two deaths, like circumstances and relationship (and in the books, Jon had absolutely no relationship with Orell, he didn’t even know who Orell was. Orell’s storyline was expanded in the show for another season).

      As far as I remember, while it’s true that in the show, Orell warged into his eagle upon his death, this isn’t really the case in the books. Orell was already warging his eagle when he was killed and part of his soul gets stuck in the eagle.

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    125. Ten Bears,

      Q4A: In that regard, is Daemon supposed to be a fair-skinned, silver-haired guy? I’m not familiar with his physical description, if any, in GRRM’s books-based lore.

      I don’t remember any physical description for Daemon in either the main series, associated short stories, or in A World of Ice and Fire. This is the introductory description of Daemon provided by The World of Ice and Fire:

      In the early part of his reign, Viserys I’s chief annoyance was his own brother, Prince Daemon Targaryen. Daemon was mercurial and quick to take offense, but he was dashing, daring, and dangerous. He was knighted at six-and-ten, like Maegor I, and Jaehaerys I himself gave Daemon the Valyrian steel blade Dark Sister for his prowess. He had been among the brashest of Viserys’s supporters prior to the Great Council and had even gathered a small army of sworn swords and men-at-arms when rumors claimed that Corlys Velaryon was readying a fleet to defend the rights of his son, Laenor. King Jaehaerys avoided bloodshed, but many remembered that Daemon had been ready to come to blows over the matter.

      From The Rogue Prince:

      The greatest of [Otter Hightower’s] rivals was our rogue prince: Daemon Targaryen, the king’s ambitious, impetuous younger brother.

      As charming as he was hot-tempered, Prince Daemon had earned his knight’s spurs at six-and-ten, and had been given Dark Sister by the Old King himself in recognition of his prowess.

      ___

      Q4B: Also, the illustration at the top of the posted article seems to depict a silver-haired Daemon Targaryen next to a cigarette smoking dragon in the foreground, while up on a dais or elevated platform there appears to be a king? flanked by two women. Though it’s hard to make out details, those three characters in the background don’t appear to have silver hair.
      Do we know who those three characters (i.e., a king? + two wives or two sisters?) are supposed to be?

      I think the three figures are King Viserys I Targaryen (if you look closely, you can see his silver-gold hair but it’s shadowed), his second wife Alicent Hightower, and his daughter Rhaenyra by his first wife, Aemma Targaryen. Aemma died giving birth to her and Viserys’s second child, a son who died shortly after.

      Rhaenyra also had silver-gold hair but I believe it’s also shadowed in Chase Stone’s illustration.

      Also, is silver hair supposed to be unique to “pure-bred” (incestuous) Targaryens?

      I don’t think silver-gold hair is unique to Targaryens. Rather, it seems to be the predominant feature of Valyrian heritage. From The World of Ice and Fire:

      The great beauty of the Valyrians—with their hair of palest silver or gold and eyes in shades of purple not found amongst any other peoples of the world—is well-known, and often held up as proof that the Valyrians are not entirely of the same blood as other men. Yet there are maesters who point out that, by careful breeding of animals, one can achieve a desirable result, and that populations in isolation can often show quite remarkable variations from what might be regarded as common. This may be a likelier answer to the mystery of the Valyrian origins although it does not explain the affinity with dragons that those with the blood of Valyria clearly had.

      The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the smallfolk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old.

      Additionally, House Dayne has produced some (like Ashara) with purple eyes.

      Q4C [Completely irrelevant, frivolous commentary 😬]: After reading descriptions of book! Rhaegar as an impossibly handsome, silver-haired dreamboat, I was somewhat underwhelmed by the stringy-haired shlub in GoT’s flashback scene of Rhaegar marrying Lyanna. [My first impression was: “C’mon, man! It’s your wedding! At least shampoo your hair, use conditioner, and brush it out!”]
      No sleight against the actor intended; I’m just curious: Was the show’s portrayal of Rhaegar consistent with the books! description?

      I don’t really think they styled Rhaegar on the show that well in accordance with Rhaegar’s book description, the wig they used for him did seem stringy but it looked a lot like Viserys’s. Still, Viserys is meant to resemble Rhaegar. So I think, with that feature, they got it right 🙂

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    126. death by chickenfire: in the books, she tames Drogon with a whip. ask Quentin Martell if a whip and some commands help anyone not being Targ enough tame Dragons. the traditional Targ-Dragon bond was not made in the arena, Drogon just got a reminder of certain family values. and one of them is surely that the Dragon of any Targ is loyal and obidient to it’s respective Targ.

      I’m not sure if it was just the whip that got Drogon to submit. I think it also had to do with whatever connection she had with him but I could be wrong. The whip wasn’t working, Drogon was still snapping his teeth at Dany and trying to torch her (what burned off Dany’s hair here), but suddenly, he submits:

      In the smoldering red pits of Drogon’s eyes, Dany saw her own reflection. How small she looked, how weak and frail and scared. I cannot let him see my fear. She scrabbled in the sand, pushing against the pitmaster’s corpse, and her fingers brushed against the handle of his whip. Touching it made her feel braver. The leather was warm, alive. Drogon roared again, the sound so loud that she almost dropped the whip. His teeth snapped at her.

      Dany hit him. “No,” she screamed, swinging the lash with all the strength that she had in her. The dragon jerked his head back. “No,” she screamed again. “NO!” The barbs raked along his snout. Drogon rose, his wings covering her in shadow. Dany swung the lash at his scaled belly, back and forth until her arm began to ache. His long serpentine neck bent like an archer’s bow. With a hisssssss, he spat black fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames, swinging the whip and shouting, “No, no, no. Get DOWN!” His answering roar was full of fear and fury, full of pain. His wings beat once, twice…

      …and folded. The dragon gave one last hiss and Daenerys Targaryen vaulted onto the dragon’s back, seized the spear, and ripped it out. The point was half-melted, the iron red-hot, glowing. She flung it aside. Drogon twisted under her, his muscles rippling as he gathered his strength. The air was thick with sand. Dany could not see, she could not breathe, she could not think. The black wings cracked like thunder, and suddenly the scarlet sands were falling away beneath her.

      Dizzy, Dany closed her eyes. When she opened them again, she glimpsed the Meereenese beneath her through a haze of tears and dust, pouring up the steps and out into the streets.

      The lash was still in her hand. She flicked it against Drogon’s neck and cried, “Higher!” Her other hand clutched at his scales, her fingers scrabbling for purchase. Drogon’s wide black wings beat the air. Dany could feel the heat of him between her thighs. Her heart felt as if it were about to burst. Yes, she thought, yes, now, now, do it, do it, take me, take me, FLY!

      Dany does seem to have a strong empathetic connection with Drogon, she can feel when he’s hurt but, yes, she’s never skinchanged into him so I don’t think her connection is that of a warg and a wargee but between dragonrider and their dragon, which doesn’t involve skinchanging.

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    127. Adrianacandle,

      Oh, okay. I saw a comment asking to provide “the link to Jon kissing Orell before stabbing him” and thought maybe I had missed something on the show or in the books.

      Maybe it was a typo? I’m sure I would have remembered Jon kissing Orell before he killed him, and I doubt that anyone – male or female – would send a warged eagle to claw at Jon Snow’s face after locking lips with him. 😘

      [What was it that Tormund said during the pow wow in Hardhome? Something like Jon Snow was prettier than his daughters, but he knows how to lead?]

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    128. Adrianacandle,

      I assumed Dany’s bond with Drogon was similar to a pet bird’s bonding with its owner, especially when a baby bird imprints on a human as its “mother.” (I’ve often remarked that the show’s CGI team did a masterful job patterning dragons’ behavior and physiology after avian behavior and physiology.) Birds can sense its humans emotions from the person’s tone of voice and movements; and since Dany’s dragon hatchlings saw her as their mother, they’d be attuned to her emotions and be protective of her.

      Now, that does not explain why Drogon melted the Iron Throne instead of incinerating Jon. I still don’t know what to make of that scene, unless Drogon was rushing to take Dany’s body to Volantis for Kinvara to resurrect her…

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    129. Ten Bears: Oh, okay. I saw a comment asking to provide “the link to Jon kissing Orell before stabbing him” and thought maybe I had missed something on the show or in the books.

      Maybe it was a typo? I’m sure I would have remembered Jon kissing Orell before he killed him, and I doubt that anyone – male or female – would send a warged eagle to claw at Jon Snow’s face after locking lips with him. 😘

      [What was it that Tormund said during the pow wow in Hardhome? Something like Jon Snow was prettier than his daughters, but he knows how to lead?]

      Without being either Iul or death by chickenfire or being able to speak for them (apologies to you both if I’m misunderstanding!), my speculation is that the comparison between Orell and Dany’s deaths (both being stabbed by Jon, which I think is the only similarity between the two, and Orell warging into his eagel afterward being used as a basis for Dany doing the same with Drogon) sort of snowballed into a request for the aforementioned link. But no, there was never anything going on between Orell and and Jon — much less so in the books 🙂

      Now, that does not explain why Drogon melted the Iron Throne instead of incinerating Jon. I still don’t know what to make of that scene, unless Drogon was rushing to take Dany’s body to Volantis for Kinvara to reanimate her…

      The most sense I can make out of that is that Jon is supposed to be alive for the end of the books too so maybe there is an explanation in the books that GRRM hasn’t written yet.

      I assumed Dany’s bond with Drogon was similar to a pet bird’s bonding with its owner, especially when a baby bird imprints on a human as its “mother.” (I’ve often remarked that the show’s CGI team did a masterful job patterning dragons’ behavior and physiology after avian behavior and physiology.) Birds can sense its humans emotions from the person’s tone of voice and movements; and since Dany’s dragon hatchlings saw her as their mother, they’d be attuned to her emotions and be protective of her.

      I think that’s a good observation in how Dany may have “imprinted” on her dragons. I would say the bond between Dany and Drogon is very deep but I like where you’re going with this 🙂

      My cat seems to know (almost before I do) when I’m going to get upset because… she decides to GTFO immediately 😉 However, she is very useful as a people alarm. If somebody with a key comes over and I don’t know about it (SIGH), she is how I know 😉

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    130. Mr Derp: I have to admit I’m personally curious to know more about the Quaithe and how she knew so much about Dany and Jorah.

      Call me obsessed; I wanted to know more about Kinvara and how she knew so much about Varys. I really wished the show had answered the questions she posed rhetorically to Varys that got him so spooked, i.e., whose voice Varys heard in the flames when the evil sorcerer burned his junk, and what that voice said to him.*

      I was also looking forward to Tyrion telling Dany exactly why he had killed Tywin – as Tyrion, during his initial job interview with Dany, said he’d explain to her at some later time over copious amounts of wine.

      * I’ll give Kinvara credit: She sure hit the nail on the head when she predicted Dany would “burn nonbelievers by the thousands.”

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    131. Ten Bears: Call me obsessed; I wanted to know more about Kinvara and how she knew so much about Varys. I really wished the show had answered the questions she posed rhetorically to Varys that got him so spooked, i.e., whose voice Varys heard in the flames when the evil sorcerer burned his junk, and what that voice said to him.*

      I was always super curious about this too….

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    132. Daemon Targaryen fancasting candidate #1:

      British-born Canadian actor Kiefer Sutherland. He’s 53, so perhaps he’s on the high end of the 40-50 year old age range in the casting description.

      [Hey, Jack Bauer 24, what do you think?] Kiefer Sutherland is good at playing morally complex characters. I thought of him when reading the casting call description of Daemon:

      He’s less methodical and more impetuous. Not to mention easily bored…stumbling from one distraction to the next with the subconscious yet singular obsession with earning the love and acceptance of his brother the king. Most of Daemon’s joy is found at sword-point. But even as the most experienced warrior of his time, he vacillates between vile and heroic, making him the true rogue of the series.”

      Unfortunately, I’m not very familiar with European actors. GoT did a fabulous job casting talented Irish, British and Danish actors I’d rarely seen or not previously seen at all. I imagine that’s the talent pool HotD will draw from.

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    133. Adrianacandle,

      I was also waiting for Hot Pie to draw a burning sword from the flames. (Just kidding.) Seriously, I thought someone somehow would fulfill Mel’s S2e1 “Warrior of Light” prophecy (the show! counterpart of book! Azor Ahai.) Even if that “warrior” did not check off all of the prophecy’s qualifications, I thought there would be some kernel of truth to it.

      I tried to shoehorn Sandor into Mel’s show! prophecy. He came close. Wishful thinking aside, if anyone fit the description on the show, it was probably Beric “Flaming Sword” Dondarrion, who had been “reborn” six times. (Did the show ever explain how Beric was able to ignite his sword?) However, since book! Beric’s already (finally) dead, I assume he can’t be GRRM’s prophesied hero.

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    134. Ten Bears: I was also waiting for Hot Pie to draw a burning sword from the flames. (Just kidding.) Seriously, I thought someone somehow would fulfill Mel’s S2e1 “Warrior of Light” prophecy (the show! counterpart of book! Azor Ahai.) Even if that “warrior” did not check off all of the prophecy’s qualifications, I thought there would be some kernel of truth to it.

      I tried to shoehorn Sandor into Mel’s show! prophecy. He came close. Wishful thinking aside, if anyone fit the description on the show, it was probably Beric “Flaming Sword” Dondarrion, who had been “reborn” six times. (Did the show ever explain how Beric was able to ignite his sword?) However, since book! Beric’s already (finally) dead, I assume he can’t be GRRM’s prophesied hero.

      The Azor Ahai prophecy itself and its full background was never really included in the show but I think its show counterpart was the “Warrior of Light” (being born among smoke and salt, forging Lightbringer, and combatting the coming darkness for the world).

      But it seemed 2/3 these bells were never rung. Arya seemed to be TPTWP because she kills the Night King but she was not born among smoke and salt and she bore no fire sword. However, she did kill the Night King right when they were about to lose the war against the dead so… there’s that? 🙂

      I don’t think Beric fits the prophecy though either. In the show, he fought in the war against the dead but I don’t think he checks off many of the other boxes either. But in the books, yes, he’s passed. I can’t remember why Beric had a fire sword, I’ll have to refresh myself on that…

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    135. Adrianacandle,

      I ought to give the show and its casting team credit: There were quite a few actresses who gave impressive one-off performances of intriguing characters, such that I really wanted to see them again, including:

      – Birgitte Hjort Sorensen as Karsi
      – Ania Bukstein as Kinvara
      – Rila Fukushima as the Volantis street priestess
      – Laura Pradelska (?) as Quaithe.

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    136. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      I ought to give the show and its casting team credit: There were quite a few actresses who gave impressive one-off performances of intriguing characters, such that I really wanted to see them again, including:

      – Birgitte Hjort Sorensen as Karsi– Ania Bukstein as Kinvara– Rila Fukushima as the Volantis street priestess– Laura Pradelska (?) as Quaithe.

      Yes! Karsi’s actress is my favourite thanks to Pitch Perfect 2 :)!

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    137. Ten Bears: (Did the show ever explain how Beric was able to ignite his sword?)

      I don’t think there is a show explanation for this but in this interview, Richard Dormer says:

      “He says two words in Valyrian which means ‘god’s light,'” actor Richard Dormer (who plays Beric) told INSIDER at the red carpet premiere for season eight. “And that makes it poof.”

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    138. Adrianacandle: The Azor Ahai prophecy itself and its full background was never really included in the show but I think its show counterpart was the “Warrior of Light” (being born among smoke and salt, forging Lightbringer, and combatting the coming darkness for the world).

      But it seemed 2/3 these bells were never rung. Arya seemed to be TPTWP because she kills the Night King but she was not born among smoke and salt and shebore no fire sword. However, she did kill the Night King right when they were about to lose the war against the dead so… there’s that? 🙂

      Well, I could try to shoehorn Arya into that S2e1 “Warrior of Light” prophecy, except – as you noted – no flaming sword drawn from a fire. (Though it’s a real stretch, I could extrapolate the “born amidst salt and smoke” part from Arya’s birth “during the long summer” when beef strips would be salted and smoked on WF’s grounds to store provisions for winter’s lean times. )

      Though I really thought that at the end of S4e10, when Arya booked passage to Braavos, conspicuously showing sailors shoveling mounds of salt was an intentional clue or “Easter Egg,” it’d be pushing it to argue that this was a backhanded way of fulfilling the “salt and smoke” part of the prophecy for Arya – or Sandor.
      I strained to see tendrils of smoke rising from chimneys on the shoreline when Arya was on the deck of the ship sailing off to Braavos…
      Nah. That would just be ASNAWP confirmation bias on my part. 😎

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    139. Ten Bears: Well, I could try to shoehorn Arya into that S2e1 “Warrior of Light” prophecy, except – as you noted – no flaming sword drawn from a fire. (Though it’s a real stretch, I could extrapolate the “born amidst salt and smoke” part from Arya’s birth “during the long summer” when beef strips would be salted and smoked on WF’s grounds to store provisions for winter’s lean times. )

      Though I really thought that at the end of S4e10, when Arya booked passage to Braavos, conspicuously showing sailors shoveling mounds of salt was an intentional clue or “Easter Egg,” it’d be pushing it to argue that this was a backhanded way of fulfilling the “salt and smoke” part of the prophecy for Arya – or Sandor.I strained to see tendrils of smoke rising from chimneys on the shoreline when Arya was on the deck of the ship sailing off to Braavos…Nah. That would just be ASNAWP confirmation bias on my part. 😎

      I don’t know if those would quite count but… I definitely give you props for creative and new connections!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

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    140. Adrianacandle: Yes! Karsi’s actress is my favourite thanks to Pitch Perfect 2 :)!

      I know! I can’t say enough about Birgitte Hjort Sorensen. It’s almost hard to believe that the action heroine in the dramatic scenes in Hardhome was the same singing, dancing and snarking comedic actress who played the Kommisar (Beca’s involuntary love interest) in “Pitch Perfect 2.”

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    141. Ten Bears: I know! I can’t say enough about Birgitte Hjort Sorensen. It’s almost hard to believe that the action heroine in the dramatic scenes in Hardhome was the same singing, dancing and snarking comedic actress who played the Kommisar (Beca’s involuntary love interest) in “Pitch Perfect 2.”

      And she was a good singer and dancer!! Who knew??

      “Your sweat smells like cinnamon!! …. Damnit!”

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    142. Adrianacandle: I don’t know if those would quite count but… I definitely give you props for creative and new connections!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

      Well, from Ray’s description it appeared Sandor was clinically dead before Sandor freaked him out by coughing; and both Ray and Beric said, in almost identical verbiage, that Sandor wasn’t dead because the god or gods still had plans for him.
      Drawing a flaming sword from a fire would’ve been a neat trick for fire-fearing Sandor…but that didn’t happen. And I thought Beric had ignited his sword by running it across his palm to coat it with blood…and I sort of hoped Sandor grasping Oathkeeper and bleeding on it would presage him igniting that sword and using it against the WWs, but that never happened either.
      When Beric recruited Sandor in S6e8 by reminding him “You’re a fighter. You were born a fighter,” I thought maybe Sandor was destined to be the prophesied “warrior.” It didn’t hurt that the Lord of Light broadcast crystal clear images to Sandor in S7e1 (contrasted with the static-filled, unclear images Mel misinterpreted). Nope.

      Frankly, the only way to reconcile the Warrior of Light prophecy would be to construe it as an amalgamation of several different characters, e.g., Jon + Beric + Arya + (maybe) Sandor. That would not be very satisfying though.

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    143. Ten Bears,

      Are we [i.e., WotW fandom] going to engage in fancasting based on the (meager) description…

      You’re joking, right? We’ve done far more speculation on far less basis!

      …dark-haired Lena Headey inhabited the role of Cersei even though Lannisters were supposed to be blonde. The blonde wigs sufficed. Also, even though Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) and Jaime (Nikolaj Coster Waldau) sported blonde hair in S1, after that the show seemed to ditch the blonde locks requirement and both Lannister brothers’ actors had their (natural) brown hair.

      I believe even D&D commented on this, saying that when they started producing the series, they just went with Lannister = blond(e) hair. Even then, they missed the mark, because in the books, Cersei and Jaime do not merely have long blond(e) hair, but long blond(e) curls.

      I was somewhat underwhelmed by the stringy-haired shlub in GoT’s flashback scene of Rhaegar marrying Lyanna. [My first impression was: “C’mon, man! It’s your wedding! At least shampoo your hair, use conditioner, and brush it out!”]

      (1) — Bran was still fiddling with reception on his Weirwood home kit for kiddie 3ERs.
      (2) — You think it’s easy to get a High Septon to officiate at your elopement? Not much time in their busy schedules, you show up when he shows up!

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    144. Ten Bears,

      Well, from Ray’s description it appeared Sandor was clinically dead before Sandor freaked him out by coughing; and both Ray and Beric said, in almost identical verbiage, that Sandor wasn’t dead because the god or gods still had plans for him.

      Yeah but I don’t know if that fulfills the born amongst salt + smoke part of the prophecy. I think the show kind of dropped it.

      Frankly, the only way to reconcile the Warrior of Light prophecy would be to construe it as an amalgamation of several different characters, e.g., Jon + Beric + Arya + (maybe) Sandor. That would not be very satisfying though.

      Yeah, I don’t think the prophecy applies anymore because there’s too much fitting square pegs into round holes. As far as the show goes, I consider the prophecies more or less a wash. AA, TPTWP, valonqar….

        Quote  Reply

    145. Adrianacandle,

      Though I think I’ve posted these before, I’m going to post them again as long as we’re lauding Birgitte Hjort Sorensen:

      • Birgitte Hjort Sorensen performing as the Kommisar of Das Sound Machine in Pitch Perfect 2:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2otY8nVEsI

      • Ellos presents Strong Women – Birgitte Hjort Sorensen
      (1:06 long; she discusses filming GoT)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxdSnCvj8fs
      ——

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    146. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      “Are we [i.e., WotW fandom] going to engage in fancasting based on the (meager) description…”

      ”You’re joking, right? We’ve done far more speculation on far less basis!“

      Good point! I’m recalling all of the pre-S6 “Sansa is preggers” speculation based solely on a photo with her dress slightly distended as Theon led her into the frozen stream after escaping the Boltons.

      And then of course I got fooled by the pre-S8 teaser with a few frames of Arya smiling as she looked up into the sky at Dany’s dragons. I thought for sure that Arya was going to bond with the dragon-riding Targaryen who saved her brother and his wight hunter squad; that the two warrior princesses would engage in mutual admiration squeefests; and that Arya might even go for a dragon joyride. (Or else…why have that S2 conversation with Tywin about Arya’s heroine, the dragon-riding Visenya Targaryen?)
      Nope. Arya, out of character, “didn’t like” Dany without ever meeting her. (Arya quickly bonded with Brienne in S7e4 even though the last time she saw Brienne – decked out with Lannister armor and a Lannister gold sword in S4e10 – she did not trust her and blew her off. I never understood how or why Arya, in S8, so readily jumped on the “Jon, we hate your girlfriend” bandwagon.)

      I also got snookered by the pre-S8 WF Crypts teaser, in which Jon and Arya, side by side, turned around and drew their swords to face an unseen enemy as the frost iced over the cave. I assumed we’d get at least one scene of Jon and Arya fighting side by side, or Jon witnessing his sister’s martial skills. Nope. That never happened. (For some reason it was Davos who witnessed Arya slicing and dicing wights in S8e3. Not sure why Davos would be the one…) Again, rampant speculation and wishful thinking on my part, I guess.

      Another thing [whinge alert ⚠️]: I thought the low light cinematography of that WF Crypts teaser scene was perfect. With just the light from the torches on the wall (plus the cinematographer’s wizardry), we could see everything clearly.
      I could not understand why the same existing light cinematography wasn’t used throughout S8e3. There were so many great action sequences in that episode I/we could not see very well because it was so dark.
      (I will try to retrieve the Crypts teaser scene to illustrate what I mean.)
      – End Whinge –

      – Oh, one more example of idle speculation based only on a photograph: I remember the pre-S7 image of Arya sitting at a table at the Crossroads Inn, and all the theories about what or who she was looking at or listening to. Pleasant surprise when S7e2 aired and it turned out to be the beginning of an Arya – Hot Pie reunion scene. 😋

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    147. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,

      Thanks for these!

      • I think we agree that Birgitte rules! No wonder she won S5 WoW Awards Best Guest Actress by a landslide. In just half an episode I (we?) were enamored with Karsi, making her demise all the more heartbreaking.
      I had thought (hoped) Wight Karsi might make a cameo appearance in “The Long Night.”
      I suppose it was better that she devoted her talents to playing the song-and-dance Teutonic blonde goddess in Pitch Perfect 2. She was a hoot!

      • Should I re-post a clip of Rila Fukushima in “The Wolverine”? I thought she stole the show from Hugh Jackman. After her brief appearance in GoT as the Red Priestess who glared at Tyrion and freaked him out, I had hoped we’d see her again too…

      • I guess for the sake of economy one Red Priestess in S8e3 was all that was needed – and Carice van Houten as Melisandre was runner-up for MVP of that episode.

      Then again, in retrospect and in light of fan reaction, the show could’ve easily ditched the Sand Snakes and crafted a storyline for the three Red Priestesses instead. Another commenter – I forget who – speculated that a faction from the Red Temple might show up for the big showdown against the AotD. (I think that commenter mentioned the name of a Red Temple militia (?) in the books…)

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    148. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      … (2) — You think it’s easy to get a High Septon to officiate at your elopement? Not much time in their busy schedules, you show up when he shows up!

      Lyanna Stark was able to put on a nice dress, brush out her hair, and look presentable for her wedding. No excuse for the groom to show up looking like a wet mop.
      Sorry. If you’re gonna steal Robert’s fiancé, blow off your wife and trade her in for a younger model, and plunge the realm into civil war, at least clean yourself up for your wedding.

      Incidentally, did annulling Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia make their two kids bastards? Doesn’t an annulment mean that the marriage never happened? I’m not sure how that works in real life or in the GoT/ASOIAF fictional universe.

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    149. Ten Bears: • I think we agree that Birgitte rules! No wonder she won S5 WoW Awards Best Guest Actress by a landslide. In just half an episode I (we?) were enamored with Karsi, making her demise all the more heartbreaking.
      I had thought (hoped) Wight Karsi might make a cameo appearance in “The Long Night.”
      I suppose it was better that she devoted her talents to playing the song-and-dance Teutonic blonde goddess in Pitch Perfect 2. She was a hoot!

      • Should I re-post a clip of Rila Fukushima in “The Wolverine”? I thought she stole the show from Hugh Jackman. After her brief appearance in GoT as the Red Priestess who glared at Tyrion and freaked him out, I had hoped we’d see her again too…

      Yup and yup! It’s always nice to celebrate the less known actors and actresses! 🙂

      I mean, it’s been a little while since you’ve done a musical interlude 😉

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    150. Ten Bears: Incidentally, did annulling Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia make their two kids bastards? Doesn’t an annulment mean that the marriage never happened? I’m not sure how that works in real life or in the GoT/ASOIAF fictional universe.

      Me either to be honest.

      I know that now, with the Catholic Church, due to my parents’ annulment, the kids aren’t declared illegitimate.

      But I don’t know how annulment and inheritance rights work in GOT/ASOIAF because they have fictional churches and religions. It might be possible that Rhaegar took two wives so Aegon and Rhaenys may still have been legitimate.

      There’s also that Rhaegar’s marriage to Lyanna doesn’t seem publicly recognized (and as of ADWD, there’s no mention of a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar, just an abduction and rape) because few people know about it so there’s that too….

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    151. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,

      Yeah but I don’t know if that fulfills the born amongst salt + smoke part of the prophecy. I think the show kind of dropped it.
      ……

      Yeah, I don’t think the prophecy applies anymore because there’s too much fitting square pegs into round holes. As far as the show goes, I consider the prophecies more or less a wash. AA, TPTWP, valonqar….

      I’m going to pin some of the blame for jettisoned prophecies on Big G. The showrunners set up the “Warrior of Light” prophecy in Mel’s S2e1 speech on the beach, and alluded to it again during the Stannis – Renly parlay.
      I suspect – with no proof – that the showrunners adapted the Azor Ahai prophecy for the show, using the term “Warrior of Light” so as not to confuse non-book readers, but abandoned the fulfillment of the prophecy when Big G failed to come up with the payoff. (After all, Jon’s “rebirth” didn’t amount to much.)
      Otherwise, the show’s writers would’ve or should’ve simply excised the prophecy, instead of leaving it open-ended and unresolved.

      Similarly, I felt that Mel’s wishy-washy reiteration of the PTWP prophecy in early S7 (declining to name Dany or Jon as the Prince or Princess that was Promised, despite her previous declaration that Jon was the prophesied prince), and instead saying that they both “had a role to play,” was a result of GRRM’s neglect in determining how the PTWP prophecy would play out. The showrunners portrayed the setup, but were left hanging by The Big Kahuna.

      (There’s a Stephen King quote about effective storytelling that I’m going to look for…something about eliding extraneous details from a draft manuscript or screenplay if they don’t go anywhere…)

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    152. Rhaegar in the show was essentially a prop, and looked like an upside down mop.

      If acting ability isn’t the strongest factor for Daemon, I’d suggest Ian Sommerhalder as another “pretty” rogue-ish Targ.

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    153. Ten Bears: I’m going to pin some of the blame for jettisoned prophecies on Big G. The showrunners set up the “Warrior of Light” prophecy in Mel’s S2e1 speech on the beach, and alluded to it again during the Stannis – Renly parlay.
      I suspect – with no proof – that the showrunners adapted the Azor Ahai prophecy for the show, using the term “Warrior of Light” so as not to confuse non-book readers, but abandoned the fulfillment of the prophecy when Big G failed to come up with the payoff. (After all, Jon’s “rebirth” didn’t amount to much.)
      Otherwise, the show’s writers would’ve or should’ve simply excised the prophecy, instead of leaving it open-ended and unresolved.

      Similarly, I felt that Mel’s wishy-washy reiteration of the PTWP prophecy in early S7 (declining to name Dany or Jon as the Prince or Princess that was Promised, despite her previous declaration that Jon was the prophesied prince), and instead saying that they both “had a role to play,” was a result of GRRM’s neglect in determining how the PTWP prophecy would play out. The showrunners portrayed the setup, but were left hanging by The Big Kahuna.

      (There’s a Stephen King quote about effective storytelling that I’m going to look for…something about eliding extraneous details from a draft manuscript or screenplay if they don’t go anywhere…)

      Maybe, I think that’s a definite possibility. That GRRM hasn’t figured all this stuff out yet (the in-between stuff). It also could have been too complex to involve in the show itself, too fantasy-esque, too magic-based (when the show had significantly paired down the magic and the more fantastical elements) or maybe all of the above?

      I think it’s hard to say now because I feel we’re getting into some tricky areas since we really don’t know what GRRM’s plans are for these prophecies. And we may be debating forever….

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    154. Pigeon: If acting ability isn’t the strongest factor for Daemon, I’d suggest Ian Sommerhalder as another “pretty” rogue-ish Targ.

      OOOOOOH yes, that’s a good one!!!!!

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    155. Adrianacandle,

      …”I mean, it’s been a little while since you’ve done a musical interlude 😉”

      You know, I had one teed up and ready to go; it was a video of an upbeat live performance of a song by Elton John. (A “trampoline song.”) However, it kind of made me wistful or melancholy watching it: the audience was dancing along to the beat, and I realized that carefree communal experiences like concerts, Broadway plays and stage shows are a thing of the past – at least here in the U.S. – for the foreseeable future. It made me sad. 😟

      Meanwhile, New Mutants opens in four days, and I doubt I’m going to risk sitting in a movie theater/cinema. The pandemic is raging here in Florida, and there are too many idiots who think masks and distancing infringe on their “freedom.” 👿 I was thinking of ordering a Hazmat suit + oxygen tank, until I decided that waiting for the movie to become available On Demand is the more prudent and economical option. So I’ll have to wait….

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    156. Ten Bears: You know, I had one teed up and ready to go; it was a video of an upbeat live performance of a song by Elton John. (A “trampoline song.”) However, it kind of made me wistful or melancholy watching it: the audience was dancing along to the beat, and I realized that carefree communal experiences like concerts, Broadway plays and stage shows are a thing of the past – at least here in the U.S. – for the foreseeable future. It made me sad. 😟

      That makes me sad too 🙁 I never knew how much I could miss a crowded mall or a food court or going to The Core on the way to visit my grandpa until a few months into covid. And now I can’t even see my grandpa — I really feel you.

      And Wicked was supposed to come to Calgary this summer and I LOVE Wicked!!!

      (But thank-you for picking a good trampoline song! I was watching Umbrella Academy the other day and I was able to pick up another good one — this one here!)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Q3mHyzn78

      Meanwhile, New Mutants opens in four days, and I doubt I’m going to risk sitting in a movie theater/cinema. The pandemic is raging here in Florida, and there are too many idiots who think masks and distancing infringe on their “freedom.” 👿 I was thinking of ordering a Hazmat suit + oxygen tank, until I decided that waiting for the movie to become available On Demand is the more prudent and economical option. So I’ll have to wait….

      I have seen some of these people on Twitter — you know, the ones printing out fake “I don’t have to wear a mask due to a medical condition” passes -_-

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    157. Adrianacandle,

      ”… It might be possible that Rhaegar took two wives so Aegon and Rhaenys may still have been legitimate.”

      That would have been a solution. It’s my understanding that in the books, Targaryen men were “allowed” to have multiple wives (and marry
      their sisters).
      For whatever reason the show opted for an annulment of Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia in conjunction with his marriage to Lyanna. I’m not quite sure why.

      P.S. I’m assuming R married Lyanna before Elia and their two kids were killed during the sack of KL; otherwise, R would have been a widower and free to remarry.
      I still wish the show had addressed why Rhaegar would do such a rash thing as humiliate his wife in public to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, and then run off with her. Wasn’t he supposed to be the smart, level-headed Targaryen? Book! Jaime and show! Barristan admired him. His kingsguard buddies were steadfastly loyal to him. Surely he had to know the sh*t would hit the fan when he ran off with (or “kidnapped”) Robert’s fiance.
      I am not sure I buy the “dragon must have three heads” theory. If it was so important to have a third child and Elia was unable to bear any more children, surely there was a way to finagle marrying a second wife to serve as a glorified broodmare. If he eloped with Lyanna out of “true love” then he was just a selfish doofus. I can’t reconcile that with the accounts of Rhaegar as a thoughtful, sensitive “good guy.”
      I would think GRRM will have a reasonable explanation justifying Rhaegar’s actions – in the unlikely event GRRM actually finishes ASOIAF.

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    158. Ten Bears,

      I still wish the show had addressed why Rhaegar would do such a rash thing as humiliate his wife in public to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, and then run off with her. Wasn’t he supposed to be the smart, level-headed Targaryen? Book! Jaime and show! Barristan admired him. His kingsguard buddies were steadfastly loyal to him. Surely he had to know the sh*t would hit the fan when he ran off with (or “kidnapped”) Robert’s fiance.
      I am not sure I buy the “dragon must have three heads” theory. If it was so important to have a third child and Elia was unable to bear any more children, surely there was a way to finagle marrying a second wife to serve as a glorified broodmare. If he eloped with Lyanna out of “true love” then he was just a selfish doofus. I can’t reconcile that with the accounts of Rhaegar as a thoughtful, sensitive “good guy.”
      I would think GRRM will have a reasonable explanation justifying Rhaegar’s actions – in the unlikely event GRRM actually finishes ASOIAF.

      I believe Rhaegar was prophecy-obsessed but that’s more a book thing and it’s only speculation to what extent this figured into Rhaegar’s actions. Alt Shift X did a good video on him a while back and while I do think Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna, he did have his mind on the prophecy. In belief he was saving the world, he may have been willing to do all this, that, and the other thing.

      But of course, we also don’t have all the details on this or anything even close to a full account. Just in-universe speculations, rumors, and the show didn’t illuminate a whole lot (ie. how did Elia respond? Why didn’t Rheagar and Lyanna, per Arrested Development, leave a note?)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJfoddFfJgw

      I would think GRRM will have a reasonable explanation justifying Rhaegar’s actions – in the unlikely event GRRM actually finishes ASOIAF.

      I hope so…

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    159. Adrianacandle,

      ”…That makes me sad too 🙁 I never knew how much I could miss a crowded mall or a food court or going to The Core on the way to visit my grandpa until a few months into covid. And now I can’t even see my grandpa — I really feel you.”

      My brother and niece and nephew live ten miles away. I have not seen them since February. My sister’s about thirty miles away. I have not seen her since then either. Another brother lives across the street from me and I have not seen him either: he’s an “essential worker” and I worry about him going to work everyday and getting infected by a maskless moron. 😔
      I thought the “lockdown” in March and April was supposed to give our “leaders” time to get the pandemic under control, but they’ve been pretending it doesn’t exist or isn’t really dangerous. They did nothing except tout bogus miracle drugs. Now here we are, with 180,000 dead, still no plan to contain the virus, and we’re the laughing stock of the world. Meanwhile, they want to force kids to go back into crowded schools with no safeguards. It’s surreal.

      Sorry for the self-pity rant… Back to GoT!!!

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    160. Ten Bears,

      I agree. It feels like the March/April quarantine was a novelty people got tired of and by May and June, it was like, “Okay, we’re tired of that! Back to normal! Time to pretend corona away!”

      And I am so sorry you haven’t seen your family in so long and how worried you are for your brother. That is very hard.

      You raise good points about kids going back to crowded schools. I’m also concerned for this. Here, they’re requiring kids to wear masks but how are the going to enforce that, especially with the 4-7 year olds? Ensure that the kids are properly handling their mask and not smearing the face-side of their mask all over desks, doorknobs, any surfaces they touch? Or, as is probably more likely, touching the face-side of the masks and then their fingers go on everything?

      It feels like a recipe for disaster.

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    161. Adrianacandle,

      ”… But of course, we also don’t have all the details on this or anything even close to a full account. Just in-universe speculations, rumors, and the show didn’t illuminate a whole lot (ie. how did Elia respond? Why didn’t Rheagar and Lyanna, per Arrested Development, leave a note?)”

      All we got from the show was Oberyn’s account that “noble” Rhaegar left Elia for another woman – and the ego-salving propaganda disseminated by Robert – and never controverted – that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, and somehow caused her death. (Not sure how…) Sansa believed the “kidnap and rape” story, so I assume Ned was content with the perpetuation of that false narrative.
      I did not glean anything from the show that would explain Rhaegar and Lyanna acting so irresponsibly and endangering both of their families.
      As we know, arranged marriages were customary in the GoT and ASOIAF universe(s). Cersei herself was an example of how daughters were expected to marry whomever their fathers decided, whether to forge alliances, upgrade the family’s status, or pump out heirs. Though Walder Frey kind of overreacted (to say the least), breaching a marriage pact was a serious social transgression.
      That’s another reason why I don’t get how Rhaegar could think he could simply run off with another man’s bride-to-be, without repercussions.

      Leaving a note (and as in Romeo & Juliet and other star-crossed lovers’ tragedies, leaving a note only to have it misdelivered, misplaced or lost) might be GRRM’s solution, but I doubt he’d filch that plot device from Shakespeare or his successors. That would be too cheesy; there are too many similarities to Romeo & Juliet (or Helen of Troy) as it is.
      I would expect GRRM to have a clever yet plausible twist in mind. (I thought the Hodor reveal, imparted to the showrunners and portrayed in S6e5, was pretty clever.) Otherwise, I’ll be left thinking that there was no logical explanation for the critical event that sparked a civil war, toppled a dynasty, and killed off scores of the lovebirds’ family members – other than that Rhaegar and Lyanna were self-absorbed morons.
      That is not how they were presented though…

      Tinfoil wishful thinking: GRRM ought to sketch out a twenty-page synopsis of resolutions of the mysteries he’s set up, and lock it away in a safe – to be disclosed to the public in the event he does not finish writing the books.

      I don’t like getting hung up on mysteries without solutions and questions that remain unanswered. That’s why I am still reluctant to start reading the books.

      It’s also why I still suspect that many of the supposedly “abandoned” or abridged story lines on the show that pissed off many fans were really a consequence of GRRM leaving the showrunners in the lurch, so that they had to scramble to come up with ways to either conclude storylines and answer riddles (often by resorting to cliches and overused devices*), or just jettison them.
      That’s my farfetched theory, and I’m sticking with it unless and until it’s disproved. 🧐

      * E.g., the “killing the alien’s leader deactivates all their drones” device that had already been used ad nauseum, in movies like “Independence Day,” “The Edge of Tomorrow,” “Starship Troopers,” and many more. I refuse to believe that’s what GRRM has in mind, and to me it seemed that this device was introduced so late in the game on the show -around mid- to late S7 – that it came off as scrambling at the last minute to come up with a means to defeat the WWs after GRRM failed to supply the showrunners with a novel solution.

      I also suspect GRRM intends for Sam’s book smarts + Bran’s powers to hold the key to defeating the WWs. On the show, however, both characters were rendered relatively useless. Sam’s stolen books? That went nowhere. Bran’s greenseeing and warging superpowers? All he did was warg into birdies for some unexplained reason. The WWs’ objective and Achilles’ heel? No way that a desire to wipe Bran’s hard drive of “memories” made any sense.

      For that matter, I don’t know why Sam felt he had to leave the Citadel because Jon needed his “help.” Sam didn’t do anything to defeat the WWs. He didn’t help Jon. His intelligence, his research, and his books played no part, did they?

      And I still don’t know why Leaf, Hodor, Jojen, et al. felt it was so imperative that Bran survive that they sacrificed themselves so he could escape. Or why the 3ER lured Bran to the far north to begin with. For what? So Bran could become king after mass deaths at WF and mass murder in KL? Bran did not use his powers to find some critical intel by time traveling into the past, conducting world wide surveillance in the present, or greenseeing something in the future. He was a non-factor in the Great War. (Don’t get me started on the silly Bran Bait Plan.)
      I cannot fathom that this is what GRRM has in mind for Bran or for Sam.

      If the show went off the rails for some fans during the last couple of seasons, their ire should not be directed exclusively at “D&D.” Big G should shoulder much of the blame, for unresolved mysteries as well as underwhelming storyline resolutions and neutered characters.

      I know many fans loved the ending. (Hi Tensor!) I just think that the showrunners, who had signed up to adapt G’s books and not complete his story for him, were put in an unenviable position after the show passed the books, and then had to finish up in S8 before GRRM had even finished TWOW after “working” on it for 9+ years and counting.
      Not fair to expect them to come up with intricate, brill***t resolutions on a tight schedule and with so little time between seasons.

      So, if the show had to abort storylines or dilute prophesies in order to conclude the story in 73 episodes, it’s not all their fault if some fans were disappointed. Nor can they really be blamed for resorting to crowd-pleasing “spectacle” in the absence of a completed narrative by the author.

        Quote  Reply

    162. Ten Bears,

      I wish I could provide a better response. It’s hard for me to comment on a lot of this because we don’t have all the details with some of this stuff, particularly regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar and Lyanna are characters who don’t have POV chapters and aren’t even minor characters but long dead characters who we have limited information about. All of our information comes from second-hand accounts and not even many of them. So much of these characters and their story is steeped in mystery, especially over who they actually were vs who people believed they are. I can bet there’s some idealization going on and I think there’s more to the story but… there’s not much to go off of.

      We don’t even know what Ned knew, what Howland Reed knew, what Arthur Dayne knew about their situation. We don’t know why, after Ned killed Arthur, he was able to to stay at Starfall with the Daynes when Jon was a baby (Edric Dayne was Jon’s milk brother as they shared a wet nurse) or what happened with Ashara….

      There’s just so much unknown.

      Tinfoil wishful thinking: GRRM ought to sketch out a twenty-page synopsis of resolutions of the mysteries he’s set up, and lock it away in a safe – to be disclosed to the public in the event he does not finish writing the books.

      I’d like this!

      It’s also why I still suspect that many of the supposedly “abandoned” or abridged story lines on the show that pissed off many fans were really a consequence of GRRM leaving the showrunners in the lurch, so that they had to scramble to come up with ways to either conclude storylines and answer riddles (often by resorting to cliches and overused devices*), or just jettison them.
      That’s my farfetched theory, and I’m sticking with it unless and until it’s disproved. 🧐

      Yeah, I think this is plausible.

      If the show went off the rails for some fans during the last couple of seasons, their ire should not be directed exclusively at “D&D.” Big G should shoulder much of the blame, for unresolved mysteries as well as underwhelming storyline resolutions and neutered characters.

      I know many fans loved the ending. (Hi Tensor!) I just think that the showrunners, who had signed up to adapt G’s books and not complete his story for him, were put in an unenviable position after the show passed the books, and then had to finish up in S8 before GRRM had even finished TWOW after “working” on it for 9+ years and counting.
      Not fair to expect them to come up with intricate, brill***t resolutions on a tight schedule and with so little time between seasons.

      So, if the show had to abort storylines or dilute prophesies in order to conclude the story in 73 episodes, it’s not all their fault if some fans were disappointed. Nor can they really be blamed for resorting to crowd-pleasing “spectacle” in the absence of a completed narrative by the author.

      Lots to agree with here.

        Quote  Reply

    163. Adrianacandle,

      ” But thank-you for picking a good trampoline song! I was watching Umbrella Academy the other day and I was able to pick up another good one — this one here!)”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Q3mHyzn78
      ————
      Now you’re getting into my wheelhouse! Tiffany’s 1987 version of “I Think We’re Alone Now” is a cover of the 1967 original by Tommy James & The Shondells:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkMFLUXTEwM

      (Since you like Tiffany’s version of “I Think We’re Alone Now” I won’t try comparing hers to the original. 😎)

      FYI: – Billy Idol covered “Mony Mony”, the original of which was a #1 hit by Tommy James in 1968. Joan Jett covered “Crimson & Clover”, another #1 hit for Tommy James in 1968, and Joan Jett and Miley Cyrus have both covered “Crystal Blue Persuasion,” another hit by Tommy James (1969).

      – “Tighter, Tighter” was co-written and produced by Tommy James for the one-hit-wonder group “Alive ‘n Kicking.” You’ll probably recognize it. I may have a good link to it somewhere. (For some reason – maybe because the original was recorded in mono – on many YouTube versions half of the vocals are muted.)

      My older brother had all of Tommy James’s singles on 45s and played them all the time. He even brought me to my first concert*, a 60’s oldies tour headlined by Tommy James when I was just a little kid, so these songs were etched into my brain.

      *Young Me: “It’s cloudy in here. It smells like someone’s burning leaves.”
      Brother: “It’s incense. Just incense.”
      Young Me: “Oh. Okay.”

        Quote  Reply

    164. Ten Bears,

      Continued from 5:28 am above

      Here’s a half-decent audio of the Tommy James song “Tighter, Tighter” recorded by Alive ‘n Kicking in 1970.

      I DO know that song!!!!!

      I can’t believe it’s so late already! I’m two hours behind WotW’s time codes (so it’s 3:45 AM here) but I think WotW time matches up with Florida time, doesn’t it?

      I remember going to Florida… beautiful and it felt like the air was water.

      Now you’re getting into my wheelhouse! Tiffany’s 1987 version of “I Think We’re Alone Now” is a cover of the 1967 original by Tommy James & The Shondells:

      I didn’t know it was a cover!! That’s awesome!! (Yes, I do love Tiffany’s version but I’m happy to have two different versions of the same great song!! :D)

      FYI: – Billy Idol covered “Mony Mony”, the original of which was a #1 hit by Tommy James in 1968. Joan Jett covered “Crimson & Clover”, another #1 hit for Tommy James in 1968, and Joan Jett and Miley Cyrus have both covered “Crystal Blue Persuasion,” another hit by Tommy James (1969).

      I know Crystal Blue Persuasion from Breaking Bad!!

      *Young Me: “It’s cloudy in here. It smells like someone’s burning leaves.”
      Brother: “It’s incense. Just incense.”
      Young Me: “Oh. Okay.”

      LOL

      I remember my first memory of incense. I just thought it was the most sophisticated thing ever because it was at Heather’s house, she lit it all the time in her own en suite bedroom, and she was an expert vegan and all the girls in my jr high wanted to be vegan, including me. Didn’t last because ice cream exists.

        Quote  Reply

    165. Seeing that GRRM discussion above from Ten Bears, I honestly more and more think GRRM’s story got “too big” and now I imagine he can’t get it under control anymore. I honestly can’t see how can he properly wrap up all the numerous side plots in two novels unless he abruptly axes them. I just don’t see it with everything that needs to happen in these two novels.

        Quote  Reply

    166. Daily Arya Thread Derailment
      (Hi talvikorppi!)

      What is it with cradling the back of Arya’s neck? Is it because Maisie Williams as Arya is so endearing? Is it because everybody loves the little tomboy assassin?

      • S1e2 Jon cradles back of Arya’s neck

      https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/arya-jon-540×305.jpg

      • S1 Ned cradles back of Arya’s neck

      https://i.pinimg.com/originals/36/38/96/363896e571ec36bde81e12d04febe3c5.jpg

      • S8e5 Sandor cradles back of Arya’s neck

      https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/95/b7/7695b728179a31d540542f7d48f765a9.jpg

        Quote  Reply

    167. @ Ten Bears
      @ Adrianacandle

      here’s the solution. i quote a contributor with a three-letter-name ( the same who warned of the mixing of book and show discussion, if i’m right…): “Of course she does not… Orrel can warg into that bird (right befone Jon Snow killed him – with a pretty similar action like in Dany’s case), but Dany can’t. Well, in the show she can’t, but they hint at it. That is why the show ends her story like it does.”

      am i so far off the rail if i understand “a pretty similar action like in Dany’s case” as referring to how to get killed by Jon?

        Quote  Reply

    168. Adrianacandle,

      >>Without being either Iul or death by chickenfire or being able to speak for them (apologies to you both if I’m misunderstanding!), my speculation is that the comparison between Orell and Dany’s deaths (both being stabbed by Jon, which I think is the only similarity between the two, and Orell warging into his eagel afterward being used as a basis for Dany doing the same with Drogon) sort of snowballed into a request for the aforementioned link.<<

      you got me right.

        Quote  Reply

    169. death by chickenfire,

      am i so far off the rail if i understand “a pretty similar action like in Dany’s case” as referring to how to get killed by Jon?

      I came to see how the comparison being made led to this, I’m sorry for making you feel misunderstood 🙁

      you got me right.

      Oh good! Did I understand you correctly? If I didn’t, please let me know!

        Quote  Reply

    170. Ten Bears: Yeah. WotW time = EDT = Florida time. I guess you’re two hours behind?
      It’s 5:56 am here. I assume it’s 3:56 am where you are.

      Yes, it was! 3:56 AM at the time! I’m in the Mountain Daylight Time time zone so I’m always two hours behind EDT 🙂

      Also, great gif. I love that scene of Arya loading up another spoon with food to shoot at Sansa before she’s interrupted by Robb. Her face XD

        Quote  Reply

    171. Ten Bears:
      Adrianacandle,

      ”…

      All we got from the show was Oberyn’s account that “noble” Rhaegar left Elia for another woman – and the ego-salving propaganda disseminated by Robert – and never controverted – that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, and somehow caused her death. (Not sure how…) Sansa believed the “kidnap and rape” story, so I assume Ned was content with the perpetuation of that false narrative.I did not glean anything from the show that would explain Rhaegar and Lyanna acting so irresponsibly and endangering both of their families. As we know, arranged marriages were customary in the GoT and ASOIAF universe(s). Cersei herself was an example of how daughters were expected to marry whomever their fathers decided, whether to forge alliances, upgrade the family’s status, or pump out heirs. Though Walder Frey kind of overreacted (to say the least), breaching a marriage pact was a serious social transgression.That’s another reason why I don’t get how Rhaegar could think he could simply run off with another man’s bride-to-be, without repercussions.

      Leaving a note (and as in Romeo & Juliet and other star-crossed lovers’ tragedies, leaving a note only to have it misdelivered, misplaced or lost) might be GRRM’s solution, but I doubt he’d filch that plot device from Shakespeare or his successors. That would be too cheesy; there are too many similarities to Romeo & Juliet (or Helen of Troy) as it is.I would expect GRRM to have a clever yet plausible twist in mind. (I thought the Hodor reveal, imparted to the showrunners and portrayed in S6e5, was pretty clever.) Otherwise, I’ll be left thinking that there was no logical explanation for the critical event that sparked a civil war, toppled a dynasty, and killed off scores of the lovebirds’ family members – other than that Rhaegar and Lyanna were self-absorbed morons.
      That is not how they were presented though…

      It’s also why I still suspect that many of the supposedly “abandoned” or abridged story lines on the show that pissed off many fans were really a consequence of GRRM leaving the showrunners in the lurch, so that they had to scramble to come up with ways to either conclude storylines and answer riddles (often by resorting to cliches and overused devices*), or just jettison them.That’s my farfetched theory, and I’m sticking with it unless and until it’s disproved. 🧐

      * E.g., the “killing the alien’s leader deactivates all their drones” device that had already been used ad nauseum, in movies like “Independence Day,” “The Edge of Tomorrow,” “Starship Troopers,” and many more. I refuse to believe that’s what GRRM has in mind, and to me it seemed that this device was introduced so late in the game on the show -around mid- to late S7 – that it came off as scrambling at the last minute to come up with a means to defeat the WWs after GRRM failed to supply the showrunners with a novel solution.

      I also suspect GRRM intends for Sam’s book smarts + Bran’s powers to hold the key to defeating the WWs. On the show, however, both characters were rendered relatively useless. Sam’s stolen books? That went nowhere. Bran’s greenseeing and warging superpowers? All he did was warg into birdies for some unexplained reason. The WWs’ objective and Achilles’ heel? No way that a desire to wipe Bran’s hard drive of “memories” made any sense.

      For that matter, I don’t know why Sam felt he had to leave the Citadel because Jon needed his “help.” Sam didn’t do anything to defeat the WWs. He didn’t help Jon. His intelligence, his research, and his books played no part, did they?

      And I still don’t know why Leaf, Hodor, Jojen, et al. felt it was so imperative that Bran survive that they sacrificed themselves so he could escape. Or why the 3ER lured Bran to the far north to begin with.For what? So Bran could become king after mass deaths at WF and mass murder in KL? Bran did not use his powers to find some critical intel by time traveling into the past, conducting world wide surveillance in the present, or greenseeing something in the future. He was a non-factor in the Great War. (Don’t get me started on the silly Bran Bait Plan.) I cannot fathom that this is what GRRM has in mind for Bran or for Sam.

      If the show went off the rails for some fans during the last couple of seasons, their ire should not be directed exclusively at “D&D.” Big G should shoulder much of the blame, for unresolved mysteries as well as underwhelming storyline resolutions and neutered characters.

      I know many fans loved the ending. (Hi Tensor!) I just think that the showrunners, who had signed up to adapt G’s books and not complete his story for him, were put in an unenviable position after the show passed the books, and then had to finish up in S8 before GRRM had even finished TWOW after “working” on it for 9+ years and counting.Not fair to expect them to come up with intricate, brill***t resolutions on a tight schedule and with so little time between seasons.

      So, if the show had to abort storylines or dilute prophesies in order to conclude the story in 73 episodes, it’s not all their fault if some fans were disappointed. Nor can they really be blamed for resorting to crowd-pleasing “spectacle” in the absence of a completed narrative by the author.

      Lots to agree with here.

      I am Ok with folks that say that D&D were up the creek with a story that was not worked properly by GRRM and did the best they could with a poisoned chalice from GRRM. Given that they presented a rousing spectacle!

      What I find bizarre is that some viewers that found what was shown in GOT7&8 to be brilliant storytelling and even “art” (however defined).

      I accept that opinions differ and we must be respectful of other views but…geez! Geez!

        Quote  Reply

    172. Mango,

      If you truly accepted that opinions differ, you wouldn’t be so confused why so many of us loved seasons 7 and 8. GOT season 8 was brilliant storytelling and was most definitely art. There’s a reason why D&D received an Emmy nomination for Best Writing and why GOT as a whole won Best Drama, along with eleven other wins. What’s truly bizarre is you expect us to come around to your way of thinking when you are yet to come up with a single argument as to why your view of season 8 is the “correct” one.

        Quote  Reply

    173. Young Dragon:
      Mango,

      If you truly accepted that opinions differ, you wouldn’t be so confused why so many of us loved seasons 7 and 8. GOT season 8 wasbrilliant storytelling and was most definitely art. There’s a reason why D&D received an Emmy nomination for Best Writing and why GOT as a whole won Best Drama, along with eleven other wins. What’s truly bizarre is you expect us to come around to your way of thinking when you are yet to come up with a single argument as to why your view of season 8 is the “correct” one.

      We dealt with someone exactly like that when I was still an admin in a LOST group. LOST finale, which had a polarising response from fandom, was widely loved in our community. When I made a poll regarding it, 81% answered that it’s among their top episodes, 11% that they have mixed feelings, 6% that they enjoy it but it’s not among their top rated and only 2% that they didn’t like it at all. And there was one member who wasn’t fond of it and pretty much the entire last season. But instead of stating his opinion (which was unpopular in group) and switching to other aspects of show that he liked, he pretty much started to feel threatened. He started making repetitive posts to keep reminding members he doesn’t like the ending. Of course there were a couple members that shared the same opinion but majority disagreed and stated their appreciation. So soon, he started making posts labeling the appreciation “bizzare” and kept challenging members how is it possible that they like it. Of course, everyone who loved it had supportive arguments why they do so and what they love… and as he kept challenging them, they started reverse-challenging him back on his posts. And with more people defending their positive opinion, the more confrontational he became and the more he aimed to unfavourably deconstruct the show. His posts always started with “Are you for discussion?” and then he always stated something unpopular and un-appreciative-like… but then he always felt threatened by the fact majority loved what he hated and there was no actual discussion, just him being frustrated. And you can imagine members and admins alike eventually becoming sick of his repetitive attempts of undoing the positivity of members and called it out… and eventually he left. And this was only one of them. I can immediately think of two more people, only inthose cases, it was not the ending but the characters they disliked but majority loved. But the pattern was exactly the same. 1) Unpopular non-appreciative opinion 2) Heavily focusing only on what they hate 3) Starting to challenge and implicitly lecture members for liking what they hate 4) Eventual leave

        Quote  Reply

    174. Adrianacandle:
      death by chickenfire,

      I came to see how the comparison being made led to this, I’m sorry for making you feel misunderstood 🙁

      Oh good! Did I understand you correctly? If I didn’t, please let me know!

      absolutely no reason to be sorry! i did my best to be probably misunderstood by hiding the clou around some corners 😉

        Quote  Reply

    175. death by chickenfire: absolutely no reason to be sorry! i did my best to be probably misunderstood by hiding the clou around some corners 😉

      Thank-you for being understanding, death by chickenfire! (For the longest time, I kept misreading your name as death by chickenwire and I’d reflect on my experiences with chickwire and think, “Yeah, that could happen…!”)

      Ten Bears: Ooh! That is really pretty. Absolutely calendar-worthy. There are some other terrific illustrations on that web page too.

      There really are! I was going through them last night and thought how you could probably fill a calendar with Arya illustrations! It might be a great resource for your calendar image collection!

        Quote  Reply

    176. Adrianacandle,

      ”There really are! I was going through them last night and thought how you could probably fill a calendar with Arya illustrations! It might be a great resource for your calendar image collection!”

      • You kind of read my mind! In my 9:48 am reply I was going to remark that I could probably fill 11 months of the 2021 calendar with over 330 Arya images and illustrations, leaving only 31 days for all the other characters.

      I was also going to observe that:
      • In searching for and sifting through online images, illustrations and gifs, it seems that Arya, Jon Snow, Daenerys, Cersei and Sansa are the most popular subjects, in that order.
      • From scanning illustrations made throughout the last decade, I’ve noticed that manga, anime and other artistic renditions of characters have been progressively modeled more and more after the facial features and physical characteristics of the show’s actors. [Am I making sense?]
      I think that’s a testament to the actors’ inhabiting their characters in the minds of book readers, more than it is a conscious effort to “copy” faces. (Of course, artistic interpretations of characters and scenes predating the show only had general book! descriptions and artists’ imaginations to go on.)

        Quote  Reply

    177. Adrianacandle:
      Ten Bears,

      Another Arya illustration from Isaac Hein III! A realistic painting of Maisie William’s Season 1 Arya 🙂

      I saw that one! A painting of the oh so popular angry Arya stabbing table [“practicing” for Joffrey] image from S1e3, I think. I’m pretty sure I’ve already saved the photo or a screen cap of that scene.

      Gifs of table-stabbing Arya are pretty ubiquitous online. I wonder why that has resonated so much with fans?

        Quote  Reply

    178. Ten Bears,

      For all the enjoyment your comments routinely produce, I really do still wonder if we watched the same show. In the space of just this one comment, you note the NK had already gone to tremendous lengths in his attempt to kill Bran north of The Wall, and then you also claim using Bran as bait at Winterfell made no sense. At Winterfell, it would have made far less sense for the NK to treat Bran as anything but a major enemy. (If he’s not a major enemy, why try to kill him in the first place?)

      And as for the “prophecy” which was “set up” with the introduction of Stannis and Mel’, she has him use an obviously not-magical sword with obviously not-magical flames to illustrate her prophecy. Such obvious fakery suggests her prediction will be wrong, not that it will be right.

        Quote  Reply

    179. The “WW’s want to kill Bran because he represents memory” bit felt a bit forced, and, was a bit silly, IMO. I don’t know. I didn’t hate it. It just felt like it came out of nowhere.

      Doesn’t the Citadel represent knowledge and “memory” as well? Sam learned about Jon’s true parentage through the books from the Citadel and not from Bran. Bran just confirmed it after the fact. Bran’s not the only source of knowledge in Planetos.

      IMO, Game of Thrones always made a point to present different perspectives and stories to show how different people can interpret as well as react to situations differently.

      If true, perfect, complete knowledge — truer than “books,” truer than “stories” — ultimately exists within one mortal figure like Bran, what kind of history lesson have we been learning all along?

      I don’t know. To me, that just muddied the waters.

        Quote  Reply

    180. Mr Derp: Didn’t they also scrap Cersei having a miscarriage in season 7?

      Yeah, I am pretty sure they did, and I wish they hadn’t. I cringed every time Tyrion droned on about “your baby, your baby, your baby” to Cersei; it also made Tyrion look uncharacteristically stupid and gullible.

      Smart Tyrion knew Cersei aka The Mother of Madness was completely unhinged – and had wanted him dead his whole life. (Geez, he knew there was a worldwide dwarf genocide going on because people were beheading dwarves in the off chance they’d find the one with the bounty on his head.) Smart Tyrion knew Cersei was untrustworthy. Smart Tyrion had told Oberyn [something like] Cersei could make honest feelings tell dishonest lies. In S4e7, after hearing Oberyn recount how young Cersei hoped Baby Tyrion would soon be dead, Smart [and condemned] Tyrion responded that Cersei eventually gets what she wants. Smart Tyrion knew Cersei blamed him for killing their mom. (BTW, kudos on the great single parenting Tywin. /s]

      Smart Tyrion would never presume that Cersei would ally her forces with her enemies and send them north because she “has something to live for.” Dumbed-down Tyrion got called out by Sansa in S8e1 for being so easily deluded by the baby nonsense.

      For me, the S8e4 parlay on the sands outside the walls of [strangely arid] King’s Landing, aka Tyrion’s “Your Baby” speech, was hard to watch and listen to. Did he really expect he could convince Cersei to throw in the towel and surrender by imploring her to think about her baby? [I won’t even get into clueless Euron standing idly by without ever wondering “Wait, what? Whose baby? How does the Imp know about a pregnancy?”]

      Before S8, I vented long and hard about my disdain for cheap “baby dramas.” I had hoped I would be wrong and S8 would not devolve into Incest Bastard Baby Bowl, or feature some other soap operish, infantile infant-centric plot line.

      The showrunners should have gone with their first instinct and included a Cersei miscarriage. At the very least, Cersei pretending to still be pregnant after suffering a miscarriage would have been consistent with her deviousness: she could have used a fake pregnancy to manipulate Jaime or Euron.) But using a real pregnancy as a device to figuratively lobotomize Smart Tyrion was a disservice to that once-iconic GoT character. [Outwitted by Cersei? Duped by Cersei? Really? No wonder Sansa snarked to his face that someone she used to think was the cleverest person she’d ever met turned out to be a dummy. Wasn’t it enough that all of his “clever plans” had failed, dooming thousands of Dany’s allied forces without accomplishing what should have been an easy conquest? Ugh.]

      Using “our baby” to engender sympathy for poor sobbing Cersei in her final moments before her anticlimactic death at the hands of the Valonqar aka Random Falling Brick #238B, felt … discordant somehow.

      Likewise, the hints and apparent foreshadowings
      about a possible Dany pregnancy could have been excised completely. All that talk [between Jon & Dany, S7e7] about an unreliable witch doctor making an untrustworthy diagnosis of infertility; the importance of naming an heir [Tyrion & Dany scene in S8]; Jon passing down Longclaw to his children and children’s children [Jorah & Jon, S7e6], etc., went …. nowhere.
      As others have commented, Jon being forced to assassinate a pregnant Daenerys – murdering his own unborn child – would have added weight to his decision. (Yes, it might have been ghoulish or controversial; that didn’t stop the show from portraying infanticide during the S3 Red Wedding scene.) Perhaps because the Jon-Dany romance hadn’t been developed over the course of several seasons with high-thread count scenes and emotionally-rich dialogue like the Ygritte-Jon romance, the expected “human heart in conflict with itself” quandary Jon would face after witnessing Dany incinerate an already-surrendered city full of civilians for no reason, and then hearing an unremorseful delusional Dany pledge to “liberate” the rest of the realm in the same manner, didn’t carry that much moral weight. It felt more like resigning oneself to euthanizing a pet with distemper, rather than an anguished hero compelled to abide by a sense of duty to others at the expense of his own personal desires.

      Without more exposition or explication – or higher personal stakes – Jon’s decision came off as “Damn! My cute girlfriend has gone off the deep end. She’s turned into a Flying Hitler with WMDs. Now she wants to take her show on the road and go on a transcontinental incineration spree to “free” more people by vaporizing them. WF is on her tour schedule. No doubt she’ll go full Shireen on Sansa as her opening act. Gotta put her down.”

      As much as I loathed baby dramas, adding the death of Jon’s own future offspring to the (underdeveloped) regicide + kinslaying equation might have posed the kind of no-win, no easy choice internal conflict that GRRM likes to frame for his heroes. (I say this because their familial relationship as blood-relative Targaryens did not seem to weigh on either of them, except for Dany’s concern that Jon aka Aegon would undermine her claim to the throne, despite Jon’s incessant parroting of “I don’t want it” and insistence that “she is my queen.”)

      Disclosure: I confess that my distaste for baby dramas stems in part from watching soap operas during lunch hour while in college instead of studying. 😎 Those shows never hesitated to manufacture “drama” out of inconvenient pregnancies from affairs; children’s questionable paternity; disclosing a deathly ill child’s true parentage to obtain life-saving blood transfusions; a twin separated at birth appearing on the scene years later to upend his sibling’s life (e.g., by posing as him); devious women getting pregnant or faking pregnancy to coerce a nice guy into marriage, or scoundrels purposely impregnating a nice girl to glom onto her inheritance; and simply using infants as props for hospital scenes and a whole host of other reasons creatively exhausted writers had for resorting to cliched baby dramas. It got tiresome.

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    181. Ten Bears,

      Yea, soap operas are all about the baby-mama-drama, long-lost twins, it was just a dream, etc…

      I too am glad to have avoided the baby dramas in GoT, but I do wonder where D&D were going with it and why they specifically removed the scene involving Cersei’s miscarriage.

      I’m personally convinced that D&D had plans for Cersei’s and Dany’s babies in season 8, but scrapped them for unknown reasons. I don’t know how else anyone can realistically explain all the baby talk in season 7 only to have it completely dropped in season 8. I haven’t heard a convincing explanation yet. There’s a difference between a red herring vs. a hung gun that’s never fired.

      As for Tyrion, I think his intelligence and decision-making was clearly compromised by his affection for his family, but that’s the problem for me. He has no affection for his family, nor does he have a reason to, other than Jaime, who had already left KL by then. Yet the show clearly made Tyrion conflicted about the whole thing. I mean, he killed his own Dad because he was going to indirectly have him killed, yet he couldn’t bring himself to bring down Cersei who was arguably worse and was also trying to have him killed?

      The show acted like Cersei was conflicted about ultimately killing Tyrion in 8/4 despite the fact that she already hired Bronn to kill Tyrion earlier in the season. It’s a bit all over the place.

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    182. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I don’t rank Lost among my favorite tv shows but I still enjoyed it and was satisfied with the ending. Just looking at some of the criticisms, I think some people were upset that some of the mysteries were left unsolved, but that doesn’t bother me. I care about the story and the characters, so I don’t mind if the show doesn’t explain everything.

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    183. Ten Bears,

      Before S8, I vented long and hard about my disdain for cheap “baby dramas.” I had hoped I would be wrong and S8 would not devolve into Incest Bastard Baby Bowl, or feature some other soap operish, infantile infant-centric plot line.

      This was my fear too. I’ve never really enjoyed baby drama and I think babies turn characters kind of dopey — well, for a time. On soap operas, a character would have a baby, the baby would be a thing for a storyline or two (like a babynapping) and then the plot would forget the kid existed until that character needed a redemption arc or 6 years had passed and the kid was 25.

      To add to Mr Derp’s list of soap tropes, I’d like to include surprise parentage reveals, SORASing (soap opera rapid aging syndrome) of soap kids, retconning a kid into a long-established character’s past (this happened twice with All My Children character Erica Kane. Not only was she given a retconned daughter — played by Sarah Michelle Gellar(!) —who had her age revised back and forth to all hell, Erica’s 1973 abortion — one of the first on-screen abortions in 1973 — was claimed to have actually produced a child. AMC did this by saying the doctor who administered the abortion actually kept the fetus for himself, stuck it into his wife, grew it into a fully developed baby before raising the kid as his own…..)

      I say this because their familial relationship as blood-relative Targaryens did not seem to weigh on either of them, except for Dany’s concern that Jon aka Aegon would undermine her claim to the throne, despite Jon’s incessant parroting of “I don’t want it” and insistence that “she is my queen.”

      I believe the incest between Jon and Dany did have another impact in that it was why Jon halted their physical intimacy:

      From Inside the Episode 8×04, David Benioff’s remarks:

      David Benioff: There’s a moment when they’re kissing, and- and it seems like things are kind of getting back to where they were, but… it’s almost as if he remembers all of a sudden what she really is. It’s tense for him. For her, she grew up hearing all these stories about how their ancestors who were related to each other were also lovers, and it doesn’t seem that strange to her. For him, it is a strange thing.

      From an EW interview with Bryan Cogman for 8×02 (Entertainment Weekly, April 21 2019):

      What really upsets Jon is that he’s a blood relative to the woman he’s in love with.

      From an EW interview with Kit Harington for 8×01 (Entertainment Weekly, April 14 2019):

      [Jon] finds out such a massive piece of information. Not only does he find out who his mother is but also that he’s related to the person he’s in love with. It’s hard for any actor to play. It’s not a two-hour movie but eight seasons of playing a character who’s finding out.

      I agree with you about the baby drama but I did feel Jon’s anguish over having to kill Dany. Even when Tyrion did his best to convince Jon and Jon was disturbed by what Dany did, Jon still couldn’t bring himself to agree to kill her, not even when Arya brought up Sansa or Tyrion brought up Jon’s sisters (only making this decision after seeing Dany wasn’t backing down), and seemed desperate to try rationalizing Dany’s actions, wanting to believe Dany wouldn’t continue on this way, that she was done. He was crying in his scene with Dany when trying to plead with her and couldn’t even bring himself to feel killing her was right per his final scene with Tyrion. I can certainly accept reception of this is YMMV though. To me, it felt more than, “Well, I guess this is what I have to do, sigh,” because of all this. I’d say that’d be more the case with Jon deciding he needs to assassinate Mance to stop the wildling attack on the Wall. Jon was certainly somber over the prospect, he did like Mance, but he did accept it and he was ready to do it without any convincing. I believe Sam was trying to dissuade Jon but Jon was resolved, despite having to kill Mance and break sacred guest right to do it. Plus, it was Jon who came up with the idea. That felt a bit more like resignation.

      Smart Tyrion would never presume that Cersei would ally her forces with her enemies and send them north because she “has something to live for.” Dumbed-down Tyrion got called out by Sansa in S8e1 for being so easily deluded by the baby nonsense.

      And much less so in the books. Tyrion seems to have lost his affection for Cersei’s children and has far more anger at Cersei and Jaime both.

      From ADWD:

      The walls would have shamed any proper castle, and the ornamental iron spikes along the top looked strangely naked without heads to adorn them. Tyrion pictured how his sister’s head might look up there, with tar in her golden hair and flies buzzing in and out of her mouth. Yes, and Jaime must have the spike beside her, he decided. No one must ever come between my brother and my sister.

      The lords of the Seven Kingdoms did make rather much of their sigils, Tyrion had to admit. “Very well,” he conceded. “A Lannister is not a lion. Yet I am still my father’s son, and Jaime and Cersei are mine to kill.”

      But this wasn’t the case in the show. It felt that Tyrion wanted Cersei to be saved because of her pregnancy, because the child she was carrying was innocent like Myrcella and Tommen, who Tyrion did have love for in the show.

      Albeit Tyrion’s feelings toward Jaime are far more complicated and conflicted. Despite his anger and desire to kill Jaime for his betrayal, Tyrion still finds himself missing Jaime and thinking upon how Jaime was the only one who cared about him but still betrayed him.

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    184. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      In the space of just this one comment, you note the NK had already gone to tremendous lengths in his attempt to kill Bran north of The Wall, and then you also claim using Bran as bait at Winterfell made no sense. At Winterfell, it would have made far less sense for the NK to treat Bran as anything but a major enemy. (If he’s not a major enemy, why try to kill him in the first place?)”

      Greetings dear Tensor! Always a pleasure to debate with you! (Seriously. I am not being sarcastic.)

      To respond to your question:
      “If he [Bran] is not a major enemy, why try to kill him in the first place?”

      That is precisely why I had difficulty with Bran’s role and the Bran Bait Plan: Killing Bran to erase his “memories”? Who cares? “Memories” are contemporaneously recorded in books. Societies can function with libraries or passed-down oral histories. Our society hummed along for hundreds of years without the internet, or easy access to accumulated knowledge on hard drives.

      Now, if Bran had some superpower that seriously threatened the continued existence of the WWs, that would be a valid reason for targeting him. That was not shown or demonstrated. Bran’s warging, greenseeing, or other powers never came into play.

      Had the show hinted at some fatal vulnerability that Bran could discover by time-tripping into the past (which is what I had expected), or some game-changing information that Sam could uncover or deduce from his history book collection – and perhaps verified by programming Bran with the chronological and geographical coordinates to visit past events – that would have made sense. Nothing like that occurred.

      Or if Bran had been able to warg into a dragon (like he did with Hodor to turn that docile fella into a wight-crunching supersoldier), or telepathically command Nymeria’s wolfpack (sadly, they never showed up again after S7e2),
      then maybe Bran would pose a serious threat to NK and his troops.

      So I did ask myself, “why try to kill Bran in the first place?” No logical answer was provided on the show. The “because memories” scene in S8 prompted me to ask out loud to my TV, something like: “Wait. WTF? That’s it? No way!”

      With no disrespect intended, how is “if Bran is not a major enemy, why try to kill him” not a kind of circular logic? Perhaps I missed the predicate: Why exactly was Bran a “major enemy”? Warging into birdies? Did Bran do anything else to win the battle? How did he qualify as a serious threat, let alone a major enemy?

      I will admit that Bran did warn Dany in S8e1 that NK “has your dragon.” But Beric and Tormund could have provided that update a little later. And for that matter, the Lord of Light had already been broadcasting real-time reconnaissance about the AotD’s troop movements to his Chosen One aka Sandor Clegane, as of S7e1. No need for redundant surveillance by Bran warging into skitterish flocks of birds.

      Surely there had to be some reason why it was so imperative that Bran survive, such that his compatriots sacrificed themselves so he could live. I could only speculate that the showrunners were following G’s blueprint in stressing Bran’s importance, e.g., in scenes with 3ER, Meera, Leaf, Jojen, and Benjen, and in Bran’s own dialogue that he needed to learn how to defrag his downloaded data. Yet, the big reveal of Bran’s game-changing significance never occurred because GRRM had not yet formulated it. That is why we got the hastily cobbled-together “because memories” pseudo-explanation.

      Likewise, there had to be a better reason why Bran was #1 on NK’s Most Wanted List. Why target Bran? No logical reason was suggested. “Erasing memories” didn’t do it for me.

      Also, if NK and his entire 100,000+ army could be destroyed by a single thrust of a VS weapon or a lucky shot with a dragonglass-tipped arrow, why even risk showboating his way into the godswood to take out a paraplegic kid in a wheelchair? Have one of his WW lieutenants or a squad of wights hack Bran to pieces. NK had been shown to be a reasonably intelligent, patient battle commander. He had outwitted or outmaneuvered humans at every turn. (For some never-explained reason NK also had the ability to see and interact with Bran’s weirwood-tripping avatar.) My boy NK would have stayed far away from what looked like an obvious trap. Even if he’d gotten knocked off his undead dragon, there was no reason for him to personally administer the coup de grace to Bran.

      Now, if NK had been shown to harbor animus against the 3ER and 3ER’s successors, that could have worked to explain why a fatal personality flaw, unbridled hatred or jealousy, blinded him to the risks of placing himself in the zone of danger – especially after the battle was almost won.

      Hey! Maybe NK really was a Stark, and he was merely following the Stark motto that “he who passes the sentence should swing the sword.” That could be why NK felt obliged to personally whack 3ER 2.0 instead of delegating the execution to one of his subordinates. 🥶

      (That tinfoil theory would work better for me than “Extinction Plan, Part 1: Overwhelm humans’ defenses with superior numbers. Part 2: Target that spaced-out kid to wipe out memories of human existence. Part 3: Ignore that little girl. Pffft.”)

      Seriously, is it not a realistic possibility that GRRM had a neat twist in store for Bran (and Sam), and just hadn’t formulated it in time for the show to adapt it and portray it?

      Sorry so long. Can’t edit.
      To be continued. Maybe.

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    185. Ten Bears,

      • You kind of read my mind! In my 9:48 am reply I was going to remark that I could probably fill 11 months of the 2021 calendar with over 330 Arya images and illustrations, leaving only 31 days for all the other characters.
      I was also going to observe that:
      • In searching for and sifting through online images, illustrations and gifs, it seems that Arya, Jon Snow, Daenerys, Cersei and Sansa are the most popular subjects, in that order.

      Yes, I’d agree with the idea that these are the most popular characters to illustrate. There is so much beautiful art in the GoT/ASOIAF fandom and the artwork is often my favourite part of the creative side of fandom 🙂

      • From scanning illustrations made throughout the last decade, I’ve noticed that manga, anime and other artistic renditions of characters have been progressively modeled more and more after the facial features and physical characteristics of the show’s actors. [Am I making sense?]
      I think that’s a testament to the actors’ inhabiting their characters in the minds of book readers, more than it is a conscious effort to “copy” faces. (Of course, artistic interpretations of characters and scenes predating the show only had general book! descriptions and artists’ imaginations to go on.)

      Some pieces really do take on the actors’ likenesses. I think that might be partly due to these are the only actors to ever inhabit these roles but also because I think many did start reading ASOIAF because of Game of Thrones, the actors were who readers had a higher likelihood of picturing in their heads as these characters, becoming these characters.

      I feel I might be a bit of an odd duck there (but that’s going off of zero research) because some of the actors aren’t who I pictured as some of these characters in my head. The likenesses of Sean Bean, Richard Madden, and Michelle Fairley did become the book characters for me (which is a bit odd because Show!Ned and Catelyn are quite a bit older than their book counterparts but this happened with me in regard to Snape too. I had read all the then-published Harry Potter books — 1 to 4 — over and over before the movies came out so I had an image of Snape in my mind… but Alan Rickon, who is also a lot older than Snape in the books, replaced the previous image I had of Snape in my mind’s eye). But on the other hand, characters such as Jon, Dany, Margaery, and especially Sansa don’t look much like the actors in my head. Sansa has the most disparity for me between Sophie Turner’s Sansa and the Sansa I imagined.

      I did wonder if this was because, in my visual assessment, ST’s Sansa didn’t really look like Show!Catelyn, Show!Robb, or Show!Bran as she was supposed to and her hair was made bright red instead of a rich auburn whereas Show!Robb and Show!Catelyn retained their auburn hair. Show!Sansa looked more like the odd one out rather than Show!Jon and Show!Arya, who I thought looked more related to Robb and Bran. I also feel Maisie Williams looked more like Michelle Fairley than Sophie Turner did when Sansa is supposed to resemble Catelyn to a T. Sophie Turner is gorgeous and I thought her portrayal of a young, naive Sansa was especially good but I didn’t think her features resembled those of the other Tully-looking Starks. Perhaps a grown Isaac Hempstead Wright’s a bit.

      With Jon, Dany, and Margaery, I’m not exactly sure why there’s the disparity. I don’t even think it has to do with the actor’s ability that determines whose likeness becoming the book character in my head, I don’t really know what it is.

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    186. Ten Bears: Gifs of table-stabbing Arya are pretty ubiquitous online. I wonder why that has resonated so much with fans?

      If you’re asking my opinion, I think part of it has to do with catharsis. Joffrey was such an incredibly loathsome character but Arya was one of the few characters (aside from Tyrion, whose slapping Tyrion has been put on loops to enjoy) who reflected the feelings of fans — wanting to stab his face 🙂

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    187. Adrianacandle,

      Do you recall if GRRM gave any interviews/comments about where he drew any the elements for Bran’s story?

      For example, some of the character’s stories are familiar from old myths. ( In some sense there are no new stories.)

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    188. Mango: Do you recall if GRRM gave any interviews/comments about where he drew any the elements for Bran’s story?

      For example, some of the character’s stories are familiar from old myths. ( In some sense there are no new stories.)

      Off the top of my head, I can’t remember comments from GRRM about this with regard to Bran. I do remember some interviews in which he’s talked about what happened with Bran and Jaime (and why Jaime did what he did) and that Bran is the most difficult to write because he’s the youngest of the POV characters at 8 (as of AGOT)

      I think this 2003 interview is probably one of the more illuminating interviews, especially when it comes to the Stark kids and the direwolf-Stark kid connection, but it still doesn’t really touch on where he drew elements for Bran’s story from.

      But I’ll look for this! It’s likely I’m missing something since Bran isn’t a character I’m particularly invested in. I’m interested too though now that you bring it up!

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    189. Mango,

      There is this comment from GRRM about Bran and the challenges with his story (from this 2011 interview) but it still doesn’t go into where he drew story elements from when it came to Bran:

      The other factor that made Bran difficult to write about was that he is probably the character in the early books who is most deeply involved with magic, and magic is central to fantasy. You want to get that sense of wonder and mystery, and give the reader things that they don’t get in ordinary, mundane fiction, but at the same time, it can ruin a fantasy. Too much magic, or magic that’s thrown in, can take over a book and suddenly it becomes all magic and you lose a lot of the inherent human drama, when people are solving their problems with a spell or waving a wand. It’s something that can be done, and I’ve tried to do it as best I could, but it requires a lot of care. For all those reasons, the Bran chapters were the ones that inevitably seemed to take me the most time and involved the most difficulty.

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    190. Adrianacandle,

      • Oh yes! I forgot babynapping! That tripe [pun on “trope” intended] made me abandon “The Blacklist” for good (after my patience had already been tested by the show defying reality to bring back a boring villain ostensibly shot to death at the end of Season 1, and trying to turn him into a good guy).
      When the lead actress got pregnant, the showrunners decided to incorporate her pregnancy – and then a baby – into the main storyline. As much as I liked James Spader as the morally complex criminal Raymond Reddington and the compelling episodes in S1* through mid-S2, and I was able to put up with the contrived plot lines and retcons for a while thereafter, the silly baby drama was the last straw for me. That baby got kidnapped, rescued, re-kidnapped, and who knows what else. I was not interested.

      * I should mention that Season 1 of “The Blacklist” featured a terrific young guest actress as a mysterious figure who insinuated herself into the lives of the female lead character and her dweeb husband, and seemed to play some role in Raymond Reddington’s past. (Initial speculation was that this mysterious young woman was his daughter from a past relationship or from his prior life before becoming a criminal mastermind.) Anyway… Back then I found myself hoping that somehow the show would ditch the lead actress and cast that terrific young actress and her character in her place. That didn’t happen.
      Fast forward a few years, and there she was – that terrific young actress, Rachel Brosnahan, winning Emmys for “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.” I’m no Nina Gold, but damn, that actress’ talent was hard to miss. I have not even begun my binge-watch of “Mrs. Maisel,” but with Rachel Brosnahan in the lead role and “The Gilmore Girls” creators at the helm (I believe), I am sure I will enjoy it.

      • “All My Children” was in my college lunch hour soap opera lineup! Fortunately for me, I missed the faked abortion/stolen fetus retconned baby drama plot line you described.

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    191. Ten Bears,

      When the lead actress got pregnant, the showrunners decided to incorporate her pregnancy – and then a baby – into the main storyline. As much as I liked James Spader as the morally complex criminal Raymond Reddington and the compelling episodes in S1* through mid-S2, and I was able to put up with the contrived plot lines and retcons for a while thereafter, the silly baby drama was the last straw for me. That baby got kidnapped, rescued, re-kidnapped, and who knows what else. I was not interested.

      Yes! I didn’t watch The Blacklist but this seems to be what soaps do with babies. I have a hard time thinking of a soap baby who wasn’t kidnapped.

      It feels like soap babies are like game add-ons. They come with built-in storylines like a sick baby storyline, a kidnapped baby storyline, a tragic custody storyline in which the baby is torn away from the character, conveniently freeing up a character to return to their previous non-baby storylines again in which they don’t have to deal with parental responsibilities.

      Fast forward a few years, and there she was – that terrific young actress, Rachel Brosnahan, winning Emmys for “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.” I’m no Nina Gold, but damn, that actress’ talent was hard to miss. I have not even begun my binge-watch of “Mrs. Maisel,” but with Rachel Brosnahan in the lead role and “The Gilmore Girls” creators at the helm (I believe), I am sure I will enjoy it.

      Yes!! And yes, Amy Sherman Palladino, who created Gilmore Girls, also did The Marvelous Mrs Maisel and Rachel Brosnahan is just excellent in it. How close are you to watching i? 🙂

      • “All My Children” was in my college lunch hour soap opera lineup! Fortunately for me, I missed the faked abortion/stolen fetus retconned baby drama plot line you described.

      That’s so cool! All My Children is the soap I grew up with! My mum always watched it when I was little, which is where I vaguely knew the AMC Sarah Michelle Gellar storyline from (before I was able to see more of it later on).

      I also read an article about how soaps used to be a social thing for many college students during lunch hours!

      A few years ago, I had stumbled upon Google groups in which they archived old newsgroup rec.arts discussions (spanning as far back to the early 80s) about television and I found an AMC newsgroup (as well as one for X-Files and Nightcourt). In the AMC newsgroup, posters came up with something called “FAC” in which a poster would take on a character and good-naturedly parody a character’s viewpoint in posts to explain a character’s position in a current storyline or defend them. The posts were pretty good! More often than not, I wished these posters were writing the show instead of the actual writers.

      Yes, the unaborted fetus son storyline happened in 2006 and 2007 and it certainly got a …. reaction XD;;; I remember more than a few objections. Unlike Days of Our Lives, which had more fantastical things like the hilarious Marlena posession storyline, All My Children was supposed to remain more or less grounded in reality (or as close to reality as you can get on a soap) but a walking unaborted son story didn’t feel… real.

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    192. Ten Bears,

      Sam found the information about dragonglass from the Citadel, the source of Jon’s real parentage, and the cure for greyscale, none of which Bran helped with until after the fact.

      With that in mind, I thought it was odd that Sam said the Citadel “just had stories” in 8/4.

      It felt tonally off considering how much knowledge Sam obtained from books up to that point.

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    193. Adrianacandle,

      ”…But on the other hand, characters such as Jon, Dany, Margaery, and especially Sansa don’t look much like the actors in my head. Sansa has the most disparity for me between Sophie Turner’s Sansa and the Sansa I imagined…”

      No knock on Sophie Turner intended: I have however noticed that unlike other character illustrations that have “adopted” the look of the actors, many illustrations of Sansa continue to portray her physical features differently than her show counterpart.

      I don’t know how book! Sansa is described. Is she supposed to be diminutive? Most illustrations (continue to) depict Sansa as quite petite, in contrast to Sophie Turner’s tall, lithe physical appearance. No big deal; it’s just a little harder to find calendar-worthy illustrations of Sansa that are similar in appearance to Sophie.

      Then again, since I understand the show aged up all of the Stark kids, perhaps book! Sansa has not had her growth spurt yet?*

      Also, since the show’s child actresses started filming when they were 12 or 13 (I think), and were young women in their early 20’s by the time it ended, I/we were left with images of those characters as “grown up” young adults rather than pre-teen little girls.

      Book readers would know better than I would how old Sansa and Arya were at the outset of Book 1 vs. whatever their chronological ages were when Big G left off in Book 5. Since my only knowledge of their approximate ages and appearance comes from the “Mercy” sample chapter, I assume that book! Arya is still a pre-teen, and presumably so is book! Sansa.

      *[Which reminds me: I remember a couple of years ago on her birthday, Maisie Williams posted a photograph of herself as a toddler sitting on a beach with the witty caption: “__ years old and still waiting on that growth spurt.”]

      P.S. Out of curiosity, in what way does Natalie Dormer not look like book! Margaery as you imagined her?

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    194. Adrianacandle,

      I am not close to binge-watching “Mrs. Maisel.” I’ve been meaning to set aside a stretch of 3-4 carefree days. Between real world work responsibilities + procrastination + getting sucked down into musical rabbit holes on YouTube + the strange difference in the way time passes ever since the pandemic sh*tshow commenced six months ago, I have not gotten around to watching it yet – along with 200 hours of other TV shows and movies recorded on my DVR.

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    195. Ten Bears,

      I don’t know how book! Sansa is described. Is she supposed to be diminutive? Most illustrations (continue to) depict Sansa as quite petite, in contrast to Sophie Turner’s tall, lithe physical appearance. No big deal; it’s just a little harder to find calendar-worthy illustrations of Sansa that are similar in appearance to Sophie.

      I think Sansa is supposed to be on the taller side as her figure is described as taller, slender, and womanly side as she grows but I don’t know if she’s supposed to be Sophie Turner tall, a height which seems to be more runway model-esque.

      Sansa is very classically beautiful, taking greatly after Catelyn, with rich thick auburn hair and deep blue eyes. While Sophie Turner is beautiful, I don’t think she had the richness of Sansa’s colouring (ie. the rich auburn ie. brown-red hair or the vivid blue eyes). I felt Sophie Turner’s features were a bit too sharp and light. I had pictured Sansa with softer features — more like how ASOIAF illustrators portray her.

      But then, I know this is pretty subjective stuff.

      Book readers would know better than I would how old Sansa and Arya were at the outset of Book 1 vs. whatever their chronological ages were when Big G left off in Book 5. Since my only knowledge of their approximate ages and appearance comes from the “Mercy” sample chapter, I assume that book! Arya is still a pre-teen, and presumably so is book! Sansa.

      I believe, at the beginning of AGOT, Sansa is 11, Arya is 9, Bran is 8, Rickon is 3, Robb and Jon are 14, while Dany is 13. I think Robb, Jon, and Dany were meant to be 16-18 in season 1 while Sansa was aged up to 13, Arya to 11, Bran to 10, and Rickon to 5-6. It seems here, the kids underwent an age-up of about 2-3 years. However, as is common with Hollywood, Kit Harington, Richard Madden, and Emilia Clarke were all in their 20s (all born in 1986) at the time.

      I think Maisie Williams being naturally small helped her portray younger for longer.

      P.S. Out of curiosity, in what way does Natalie Dormer not look like book! Margaery as you imagined her?

      I love Natalie Dormer. I thought she was amazing as Margaery. I first encountered her in The Tudors, where she played Anne Boleyn, and she was certainly a highlight of that series for me. I also thought casting Diana Rigg as Olenna and Dormer as Margaery was a stroke of casting genius because Dormer does bear a resemblance to a young Rigg!

      However, Margaery is only 15-17 in the books (the same age as Robb and Jon, both born in 283 and the series takes place from 298-300), is almost identical to Loras, and has large brown eyes. Like with Sansa, I pictured Margaery with a softer look than the one Dormer has, who I’d say has a more striking, sharper appearance. Dormer is beautiful! But I think it’s more of a striking beautiful rather than a conventional beautiful.

      But that’s just how I pictured Margaery in my head, which may not be how others pictured her 🙂 She may very well look like Natalie Dormer in the heads of others, which I certainly wouldn’t object to!

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    196. Ten Bears: I am not close to binge-watching “Mrs. Maisel.” I’ve been meaning to set aside a stretch of 3-4 carefree days. Between real world work responsibilities + procrastination + getting sucked down into musical rabbit holes on YouTube + the strange difference in the way time passes ever since the pandemic sh*tshow commenced six months ago, I have not gotten around to watching it yet – along with 200 hours of other TV shows and movies recorded on my DVR.

      Yeah, that makes sense! When you are able to do so, I think you’ll definitely enjoy it! Given my upcoming wrap-around desk project, I’m considering doing a third rewatch of the series while I work!!

      Speaking of TV series, has anyone here seen the Netflix series, 3%? It’s a Brazilian dystopian series and I found it really engaging. I liked almost all the characters, who I found complex and fascinating (only really disliking one), and I thought it did a good job of exploring the idea of a merit-based society taken to the extreme, as well as the associated politics between the “worthy” and “unworthy”, what it means to be worthy, what worthiness constitutes, and if it justifies 3% of the populace hogging most of the limited resources while the other 97% live in poverty (at age 20, everyone is allowed one chance to apply to be the 3% and must pass a series of increasingly difficult tests to prove their worthiness. If they are successful, they become part of the 3%. If not, they return to being the 97%).

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    197. Mango:
      Adrianacandle,

      Thanks!

      You are font of knowledge!

      You’re welcome! 🙂 🙂 🙂 I’ll keep looking because maybe GRRM has made comments about this, perhaps in an interview I haven’t come across or I’m blanking on something I’ve read. I’ll keep looking because I’d like to know this too!

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    198. Mr Derp:
      Ten Bears,

      Sam found the information about dragonglass from the Citadel, the source of Jon’s real parentage, and the cure for greyscale, none of which Bran helped with until after the fact.

      With that in mind, I thought it was odd that Sam said the Citadel “just had stories” in 8/4.

      It felt tonally off considering how much knowledge Sam obtained from books up to that point.

      • Well, I found it odd that Sam “suddenly” learned about deposits from the Citadel book, when Stannis expressly told him in S5 that there were Dragonglass deposits on Dragonstone.

      As I recall, Sam kind of mentioned offhandedly later on that Stannis had imparted this information. I’d have to rewatch Sam’s S7 review of the map at the Citadel: I believe Sam said something about his prior conversation with Stannis, and possibly that he wasn’t sure exactly where the deposits would be. Still, wouldn’t Stannis’s mere disclosure to Sam that he had seen dragonglass on Dragonstone have been significant enough that Sam should have conveyed that information to Jon way sooner, i.e., once the threat of an imminent WW invasion became apparent? Even if Sam did not know the precise location of a DG deposit, the fact that an inhabitant of Dragonstone had seen that vital material on the island without looking for it have been enough to prompt an expedition? (If someone with no reason to lie told me he’d seen gold dust somewhere on Ft. Lauderdale beach, I’d be out there on my hands and knees every day scouring every mile of shoreline. I would not wait for someone to “point out the nearest map shop” to buy myself a map before commencing my search. Okay, bad example. I just couldn’t resist quoting Sandor. 🐓)

      • As for info about Jon’s real parentage (i.e., the Septon’s diary recording the annulment of Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia and Rhaegar’s wedding to Lyanna), as you noted Bran didn’t fill in the significant piece of information (R+L produced Baby Jon) until after Sam arrived in WF, so that was not why Sam dropped out of the Citadel or why he felt Jon “needed” his help.

      In fact, Jon did not really need Sam’s “help” for the defense against the WWs, did he? Sam had already sent Jon via revengram the update about the location of the DG deposit. Jon announced that to the Northern lords in S7e1 or e2 when informing them of the necessity for his decision to embark on his expedition south (along with Tyrion’s ravengram detailing Dany’s firepower and inviting Jon to meet with her).

      • As for the cure for greyscale, that of course had nothing whatsoever to do with the defense against the WWs or the need for Sam to drop out of Maester University to “help” Jon.
      I remain convinced, unless and until G proves otherwise, that “Sam cures Jorah’s greyscale” was another example of the showrunners expeditiously pulling the plug on a storyline they had set up in accordance with GRRM’s books (i.e., his “Infected Patient Zero Comes to Westeros” storyline) because GRRM had not delivered the payoff. As I’ve snarked before, that whole greyscale storyline amounted to “Jorah got sick. Jorah got better. The End.”
      Considering the significant screentime devoted to establishing greyscale as a highly contagious disease, one would expect that it would play a part in the endgame. (Based on my limited knowledge of the books, I figured a growing threat of a deadly disease emanating from the south while at the same time another deadly threat was emerging from the north, would make for a compelling clusterf*ck confronting humanity).
      So, in my (unsubstantiated) view, Sam’s discovery of the cure for greyscale went nowhere. Once again, it did not give him a reason to leave the Citadel or to “help” Jon. A greyscale outbreak in WF might have provided Sam a reason to travel there to treat the afflicted and stop its spread among the WF defenders… but that didn’t happen.

      • You wrote: “…I thought it was odd that Sam said the Citadel “just had stories” in 8/4.”
      I don’t remember that. Can I ask you to fill me in on the context? (I know. I’m lazy. I could go look for myself…🤥)
      Was Sam insinuating that the Citadel was a waste of time? Was this a means of suggesting he’d read the stolen books and there was nothing in them but “stories” having nothing to do with White Walkers?

      Or was this a way of explaining away his theft of books as another intended plot development (e.g., discovering some vital information) that was jettisoned once it became clear Big G would not supply the payoff?
      If so, that cartful of stolen Citadel books was either a rather boring red herring, or more likely, a gun that was deliberately hung but then couldn’t be fired because Big G had not provided any bullets to load into the chamber.

      Don’t get me wrong. I liked the character of Samwell Tarly. I was really looking forward to a cerebral hero helping to carry the day when swordfighters and firepower wouldn’t be enough to defeat the Ice Zombies.
      That is why I thought GRRM had introduced Sam to begin with: a total flop when it came to traditional fighting skills, but a hero whose powerful intellect and book smarts would prove to be essential.
      Frankly, I was disappointed that Sam was relegated to ineffectual frontline sword fighter in “The Long Night.” I had hoped for so much more.
      Plus, his info dump about Jon’s parentage didn’t amount to much, other than just conveyance of another tidbit of adverse information to unsettle Dany and imperil her “destiny” self-narrative. Sam did not need to go to WF to do that. (Jon’s status as Rhaegar’s son – legitimate or not – would have sufficed.)
      Besides, Bran had already eavesdropped on Lyanna handing Baby Jon to Young Ned in S6e10. Avatar Bran was right there, a few feet away, when Lyanna whispered something to Young Ned.
      Why Bran had to revisit that scene again later to hear Lyanna tell Ned “his name…is Aegon Targaryen” was either awfully convenient or awfully confusing to me: Sam’s recital of the contents of the Septon’s diary was superfluous. Bran was able to learn Jon’s trueborn Targaryen status simply by paying attention to what he had witnessed during his time travel trip to the Tower of Joy.

      I guess all this is my long-winded way of agreeing with you that “it felt tonally off considering how much knowledge Sam obtained from books up to that point.” While I’d really like to be proven wrong, it sure seemed to me that all the knowledge Sam had acquired from the CB scrolls, the Citadel library, and any (offscreen) research from the stolen volumes, did not play any part in defeating the AotD.

      That was the whole purpose of enrolling in the Citadel to begin with. That was why Stannis had urged, “Keep reading, Samwell Tarly.” And that was also why I had believed Sam would use his powers of deductive reasoning to extrapolate from the fragmentary information he had discovered in the CB scrolls, the key to beating the Big Bad Monsters from beyond the Wall.

      As an unabashed Arya fanboy I shouldn’t complain that she was the Hero of Winterfell: She was the one who used her nifty dagger flip (fortified by a pep talk from the Red Witch) to single-handedly save the world just when all seemed lost. I could understand that NK would prove to be impervious to dragonfire; that possibility had been discussed before the battle. I can grudgingly accept Jon being neutered, reduced to yelling at an undead dragon and ducking behind a rock, as a narrative decision to “subvert expectations” by selecting someone else to square off against the NK, notwithstanding Jon’s established history with the NK. (That kind of unexpected sh*t can happen in the fog of war.)

      Still, am I wrong in feeling that Sam had been set up to be a hero, or at least one of the heroes, in the existential battle against the WWs? Or am I just cranky that I wasted my time plucking out bits of dialogue and factoids throughout Seasons 1 to 7 that I thought Sam would piece together in S8 to arrive at a “Eureka!” moment?

      – End Pro-Samwell Diatribe –

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    199. Ten Bears,

      Stannis told Sam that dragonglass was mined at Dragonstone, but what surprised Sam was the amount of it. That’s why he said after he found out, “Stannis mentioned it to me, but I didn’t realize-“ (paraphrasing)

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    200. Adrianacandle,

      ”…Sansa is very classically beautiful, taking greatly after Catelyn, with rich thick auburn hair and deep blue eyes. While Sophie Turner is beautiful, I don’t think she had the richness of Sansa’s colouring (ie. the rich auburn ie. brown-red hair or the vivid blue eyes). I felt Sophie Turner’s features were a bit too sharp and light. I had pictured Sansa with softer features — more like how ASOIAF illustrators portray her.

      But then, I know this is pretty subjective stuff.“

      And here’s where my admitted bias sets in. Every time I heard Sandor, Robert or other characters refer to the “pretty sister,” for me that was Arya.

      I know book! Ned told book! Arya she resembled her Aunt Lyanna, a reknowned beauty (as show! Sansa reminded Lyanna Mormont in her unsuccessful pitch for House Mormont fighting men in S6e7). I assume that in the books like in the show, Arya’s tomboy appearance coupled with her androgynous “Arry” disguise to escape the KL manhunt and travel incognito, and her innate disregard for traditional gender roles played down her femininity, while Sansa’s self-image and later her survival depended on adopting those traditionally feminine styles and fashions.

      Like you said, “pretty” is pretty subjective stuff.
      I suppose I think the camera just happens to love Maisie Williams, and I perceive her character’s feistiness and the actress’ expressiveness, especially now that she’s grown up, as “attractive” features. (Lady Crane agrees…)

      Again, no knock against Sansa or Sophie. She’s got that long-legged runway model thing going – for those who prefer that.

      And yes, I can see how ASOIAF illustrators portrayed Sansa with “softer” features, though that could change if book! Sansa follows the same trajectory as show! Sansa and evolves into a strong, assertive leader. For that kind of role I’d envision QitN Sansa as a less demure, more physically imposing character with slightly different features to mirror her transformation from “little bird” to self-confident monarch who wouldn’t take sh*t from boorish Northern Lords.

      That’d be fine. I thought S8e6 last-scene Sansa was the best Sansa. 🙂 (So did the producers: For the framed storyboards they gifted to each actor on their last day of filming, they chose for Sophie
      an image of newly-crowned Sansa. I’ll dredge up the links to those storyboard presentations if you have not seen them.)

      I suppose the illustrators need to catch up on the new look Sansa, as opposed to the way they imagined Sansa before the show and before she (and the actress) grew up. For now, many of the images I see do not bear a likeness to show! Sansa. I’ll have to keep looking. I would not want to use unrecognizable images in my calendar. 🤔

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    201. Young Dragon:
      Ten Bears,

      Stannis told Sam that dragonglass was mined at Dragonstone, but what surprised Sam was the amount of it. That’s why he said after he found out, “Stannis mentioned it to me, but I didn’t realize-“ (paraphrasing)

      Yeah, that generally comports with my recollection, though I’d have to go back and rewatch Sam’s conversation with Stannis and Sam’s comments after finding the map. I don’t specifically recall Stannis telling Sam DG was mined at Dragonstone. It was more an off-handed comment by Stannis that he had seen Dragonglass on Dragonstone. However, Stannis – like Dany later on – had not been aware of the value of Dragonglass in fighting wights or WWs. (That’s why Tyrion could advise Dany to give Jon something by giving him nothing: as far as they knew at the time WWs were fairy tales and dragonglass was worthless.)

      However, Sam undoubtedly knew of its value:
      • Sam the Slayer pulverized a WW with a DG dagger.
      • Sam had found the cache of DG shards in the silo he found buried at the Fist of the First Men, and surmised they’d been deposited there to be found. [And I’ve got a convoluted tinfoil theory about that…]
      • Sam provided those shards to Bran & company and to Jon for his convocation with the wildlings at Hardhome, so he already had no doubt how valuable DG was in fighting undead creatures.
      • Jon also knew – and presumably so did Sam – how rare DG was. That’s one of the reasons why Jon felt he had to travel to Dragonstone despite his and his people’s misgivings.

      What I’m getting at is that the relative amount of DG on Dragonstone should not have made a difference. If there was enough that Stannis noticed its presence on the island without realizing its value and without knowing anything about the deposit in the cave marked on the Citadel map, that by itself should’ve impressed on Sam (and Jon if Sam bothered telling him about Stannis’s comment) the necessity to mount an exploratory expedition to Dragonstone.

      Bad Example Part 2: Where I grew up as a kid, there were quartz rocks just about anywhere I’d dig. (Bear with me. Think of my younger self as Cousin Orson. For some reason I enjoyed digging up rocks from the ground and breaking them up with a hammer.) The quartz crystals in split rocks looked cool but they were worth $0 and had no practical use.
      If I later learned quartz crystals could be weaponized, sold for a profit, or were desperately needed by people for their survival, I would not hesitate to go rock digging without knowing if there were caves rich in quartz deposits somewhere.

      If Stannis noticed there was DG on Dragonstone, and Sam already knew of DG’s lethal anti-WW properties; already knew that long ago someone had purposely stored DG weapons in a marked silo; and was aware that DG was not otherwise common in nature, why would Sam have not already alerted Jon to send an expedition to Dragonstone? Discovering the marked map should not have made any difference. If anything, it only confirmed that someone in the past knew what Sam already knew: that DG was not some worthless volcanic rock.

      [Future unified tinfoil theory alert! ⚠️ There was more to the Stannis-Sam conversation about DG and related factoids that I may get into some other time – once I am able to determine that the books don’t refute what I saw on the show, so that I do not come off like a raging idiot. 🤯]

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    202. Ten Bears,

      But you said it yourself. Dragonglass could also be found in the North, where Jon had originally been directing the search. Without knowing the full amount of dragonglass on Dragonstone, sending Jon all the way there wasn’t practical, particularly with it being so. close to King’s Landing, or even without knowing who was currently in possession of it. Sam only sent Jon to Dragonstone after realizing that the amount of dragonglass there was a game changer.

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    203. Ten Bears,

      And here’s where my admitted bias sets in. Every time I heard Sandor, Robert or other characters refer to the “pretty sister,” for me that was Arya.

      I know book! Ned told book! Arya she resembled her Aunt Lyanna, a reknowned beauty (as show! Sansa reminded Lyanna Mormont in her unsuccessful pitch for House Mormont fighting men in S6e7). I assume that in the books like in the show, Arya’s tomboy appearance coupled with her androgynous “Arry” disguise to escape the KL manhunt and travel incognito, and her innate disregard for traditional gender roles played down her femininity, while Sansa’s self-image and later her survival depended on adopting those traditionally feminine styles and fashions.

      Like you said, “pretty” is pretty subjective stuff.

      Oh yeah, I think Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams are gorgeous and I’d kill to look like either one of them! But yes, I think they have different kinds of beauty and people have different ideas of what kind of beauty they find most appealing. I sort of prefer Maisie William’s because I think she’s got more of a cute, gentle beauty — what I’d like to have — whereas Sophie Turner’s is a more angled, model-esque runway beauty.

      And yes, I can see how ASOIAF illustrators portrayed Sansa with “softer” features, though that could change if book! Sansa follows the same trajectory as show! Sansa and evolves into a strong, assertive leader. For that kind of role I’d envision QitN Sansa as a less demure, more physically imposing character with slightly different features to mirror her transformation from “little bird” to self-confident monarch who wouldn’t take sh*t from boorish Northern Lords.

      I think it’s possible to display a certain hardness or “set” to features if this does come to pass without actually changing the physicality of them, if that makes sense? When I think of soft features, I think of (off the top of my head) Gilmore Girls-era Alexis Bledel, Ellen Page, Gennifer Goodwin, Hayden Panettiere, Amanda Seyfried, and there are probably more that I can’t think of right now…

      I do think Sansa will end up in a leadership position in the North, whether it’s Lady of Winterfell or QitN and I think she will be harder by the end of the series, yeah.

      I suppose the illustrators need to catch up on the new look Sansa, as opposed to the way they imagined Sansa before the show and before she (and the actress) grew up. For now, many of the images I see do not bear a likeness to show! Sansa. I’ll have to keep looking. I would not want to use unrecognizable images in my calendar.

      When (if) we ever get to this point in the books, Sansa’s look may become harder if the character becomes harder. But it also might be an issue of Sophie Turner not looking like the mental image they have of Sansa in their heads so they don’t base Sansa off of Turner’s likeness. For example, book!Jon in my head doesn’t really resemble Kit Harington, as much as I love Kit Harington’s look, same with book!Dany not looking like Emilia Clarke in my head or Gwendoline Christie looking like book!Brienne in my head and I love their looks too 🙂

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    204. Ten Bears,

      I think you already know how much I loathed the bewildering never-ending invisible Cersei pregnancy storyline. For me, it was one of the weakest bits of the series. You mentioned most of the parts that I found incredibly hard to believe, to the point that when she mentioned the Invisible Baby in her very last scene, I still thought she’d been making it all up,and said “What???” to the screen.

      Apparently in Westeros, people have a gestation period of similar length to the elephants Cersei wanted so much to see. And everyone ASIDE from Cersei got pregnancy brain and became idiots because of Invisible Baby, who was apparently more important than the rest of the population. I just……wow. Wow. 🤦‍♀️

      I mean, the woman who everyone claimed loved her children more than anything not only directly caused her son to off himself by killing his wife, but she also wore his scalp as a heinous wig for the rest of the series.

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    205. Adrianacandle,

      By downplaying Bran’s magical abilities on the show, he came off like a cipher. He did not use his powers when they were most needed, if at all.
      His motives were ineffable and his stunted dialogue didn’t reveal much except that he had a knack for parroting other characters’ catchphrases. (E.g., “Chaos is a ladder” and “The things we do for love.”)

      As time goes on I’ve become more receptive to the tinfoil suggestion that the show did a better job setting up Bran as the ultimate villain rather than Dany. Bran seemingly let bad sh*t happen when simply speaking up could have prevented it.

      There were countless times he could have used his powers to avert tragedies or to advance the common good, but he just sat back and spaced out. He harped on about the urgency of telling Jon he was the “heir to the Iron Throne” but the disclosure of the secret of his parentage led to Dany’s breakdown and Jon’s banishment back to the Wall. Bran let so many folks sacrifice themselves based on the belief that humanity’s very fate in meeting an existential threat depended on Bran’s survival – yet when the time came Bran seemed more like an emotionally vacant spectator.

      Some fans have interpreted Bran’s weird behavior and inactions as those of a Machiavellian puppet-master, pulling the strings behind the scenes to accomplish his own self-serving agenda, e.g., to ascend the throne himself after manipulating events until all rival claimants were dispatched.

      I am reluctant to embrace such a loopy interpretation, and as far as I know there is nothing to suggest that GRRM or the showrunners ever intended anything remotely like that.

      Yet, I am still not sure what we were supposed to make of Bran’s apparent foreknowledge when responding to Tyrion’s offer to nominate him to be the new king:

      Why do you think I came all this way?”

      How were we to reconcile the detached crippled kid who declined to be the Lord of Wintefell, and insisted he could not be the lord of anything because he was the Three-Eyed Raven, with the guy who readily agreed to become the ruler of the entire realm as if that was in the cards all along?
      What else could his response to Tyrion have signified?

      If the takeaway was that a part-human/ part magical wizard hybrid being was the best choice to lead the post-war nation, or that Bran was the best candidate simply because the consensus was that Bran had the “best story” as Tyrion suggested, then I guess that’s the explanation.

      I am not whinging. I was genuinely confused by Bran’s words.

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    206. Pigeon: Apparently in Westeros, people have a gestation period of similar length to the elephants Cersei wanted so much to see.

      Oh, the elephants. They were all Cersei wanted… :'(

      (This comment does sort of remind me what viewers would say of soap pregnancies. They were either lightning fast or took forever…)

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    207. Pigeon,

      When my cousin was pregnant, she barely showed at all. And thinking back, I don’t believe Danerys showed either when she was pregnant in season 1.

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    208. Ten Bears,

      I agree that Bran wasn’t utilized properly in the show, but I feel the same with the books, at least, thus far. I disagree that he was set up as the villain more than Danerys, though. Being apathetic to terrible acts isn’t great, but actually performing terrible acts is much worse.

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    209. Ten Bears,

      I am reluctant to embrace such a loopy interpretation, and as far as I know there is nothing to suggest that GRRM or the showrunners ever intended anything remotely like that.

      Yeah, I don’t think this was the intended take-away either. When Isaac Hempstead Wright spoke about this, he didn’t see entirely clear to what extent Bran could see the future. Perhaps he could only see glimpses but not the full picture?

      From Isaac Hempstead Wright (Harper’s Bazaar, July 2019)

      Actor Isaac Hempstead-Wright, who plays Bran in the show, admitted that the scope of his character’s premonitions are limited. “I don’t think Bran knows exactly what will happen in the future,” the actor said at San Diego Comic Con 2019 months after the finale. “His vision of the future is slightly cloudier.”

      He also told the New York Times in an interview about Season 8, “As I understand it, Bran can’t exactly see the future. I think he can have inklings.” For example, when he gave Arya the Valyrian steel catspaw dagger last season, he knew she’d use it for something important, but not that she’d specifically kill the Night King with it, the actor explained.

      “The very purpose of the Three-Eyed Raven is to be the one who is wise, and still, and careful enough to handle this information and not just go blabbering it about, because that would affect the outcome,” Hempstead-Wright added. “He’s very cautious with what he reveals to people, because he’s aware that time has to unfold naturally.”

      Hempstead-Wright added that not even he knows the full scope of Bran’s abilities. “This is all conjecture on my part,” he noted in the NYT interview. “I’ve never actually gone through a very detailed analysis of what exactly Bran’s powers are with [the showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss].”

      _______

      Yet, I am still not sure what we were supposed to make of Bran’s apparent foreknowledge when responding to Tyrion’s offer to nominate him to be the new king:
      “Why do you think I came all this way?”

      How were we to reconcile the detached crippled kid who declined to be the Lord of Wintefell, and insisted he could not be the lord of anything because he was the Three-Eyed Raven, with the guy who readily agreed to become the ruler of the entire realm as if that was in the cards all along?

      What else could his response to Tyrion have signified?

      The best I can come up with is that maybe Bran knew he wasn’t meant to become Lord of Winterfell but king instead.

      If the takeaway was that a part-human/ part magical wizard hybrid being was the best choice to lead the post-war nation, or that Bran was the best candidate simply because the consensus was that Bran had the “best story” as Tyrion suggested, then I guess that’s the explanation.
      I am not whinging. I was genuinely confused by Bran’s words.

      I think Bran being king is supposed to be a good thing. I admit that it’s not a plot development I loved but maybe, if we ever get to see the final books, the set up will be better. Perhaps D&D didn’t have all the pieces of the puzzle because GRRM still had to figure out the details?

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    210. Young Dragon,

      You wrote:

      But you said it yourself. Dragonglass could also be found in the North, where Jon had originally been directing the search…”

      My apologies if what I wrote was ambiguous. I did not state that “Dragonglass could also be found in the North” and I did not mean to suggest that. I thought the show made it clear that DG was rare in the North. I could be mistaken. Other than the cache of DG Sam unearthed from the buried silo, I do not recall any mention of DG being available in the North.

      In fact, I had assumed from the Dragonstone cave drawings that the island was where the CotF – and likely their human allies – had obtained their DG way back when. (They’d have no need to make the long trip south if DG could also be found in the North, would they?)

      BTW, I’m now remembering that Karsi or one of the other Wildling chieftains said something about DG at Hardhome. I forget exactly what was said. However, they did not seem to be aware of its anti-zombie properties.

      I do however distinctly remember Jon wanting to fight his way back to the hut through the zombie swarms to retrieve the bag of DG shards, because of Edd’s reaction: “F*ck the glass! We’re going to die here!” Jon apparently considered DG precious enough to risk being torn to shreds to recover the small bag of it. If it could’ve been easily replaced I figure Jon would not even contemplated going back for it.

      I suppose it’s possible there were other buried silos but if there were, their locations have been lost in antiquity – along with the reasons for burying the DG in underground silos north of the Wall instead of, say, stored in the CB Armory.

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    211. Young Dragon,

      P.S. I know the Hardhome clusterf*ck was a show-only creation (and a good one at that). I think in the books there’s only second-hand information from a letter referring to “dead things in the water” or something like that.

      Anyway, do the books provide any information about dragonglass that was not detailed in the show, or that contradicts what we saw on the show?

      [Yeah, I know: I could read them and find out for myself, but I am not ready to make the leap of faith that G will finish writing the last two books before I finish reading the first five.]

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    212. Ten Bears: Anyway, do the books provide any information about dragonglass that was not detailed in the show, or that contradicts what we saw on the show?

      Here is a screenshot of the wiki page on dragonglass in ASOIAF 🙂 As far as I can remember, not much differs between between the books and the show when it comes to dragonglass or where to find it except for several things: 1) You can also find it in Asshai in addition to Dragonstone (which has the largest deposits, I believe) while wildlings (as well as the Children of the Forest) have weapons forged from it and it is traded by those living in Skaagos, 2) its effectiveness on wights is unconfirmed (although, it can kill an Other), and 3) it’s pretty brittle.

      As summarized in the wiki article, when Sam tries to kill a wight with dragonglass, the dragonglass shatters against the wight’s chainmail.

      When Sam kills an Other, it sort of melts into a puddle instead of shattering:

      Do it now. Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

      When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

      Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold.”

      When Sam tries to kill a wight:

      There was no time to think or pray or be afraid. Samwell Tarly threw himself forward and plunged the dagger down into Small Paul’s back. Half-turned, the wight never saw him coming. The raven gave a shriek and took to the air. “You’re dead!” Sam screamed as he stabbed. “You’re dead, you’re dead.” He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul’s heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool.

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    213. Ten Bears: or that Bran was the best candidate simply because the consensus was that Bran had the “best story” as Tyrion suggested, then I guess that’s the explanation.

      Don’t know why you’re leaving out the rest of that speech, but after that Tyrion says this;

      “He is our memory, the keeper of all our stories. The wars, weddings, births, massacres, famines. Our triumphs, our defeats, our past. Who better to lead us into the future?”

      In other words, Bran knows and understands humanity better than anyone and therefore can make decisions accordingly. As Tywin puts it in s4e3 “A good king is a wise king”. I think knowing and understanding all of humanity make one pretty wise. And Bran has shown wisdom like in the very first episode where he questions his father for executing Will. He also isn’t a Stark anymore, so he is not tied to any House or family. He doesn’t only care about his own family, he cares about all humans. His story is only used to unite people.

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    214. Adrianacandle,

      Thanks for that Wiki of Ice and Fire article about Dragonglass. At first glance it didn’t contradict my crackpot theories, though I’ll have to read it more carefully after a good night’s sleep….

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    215. Adrianacandle: When Sam kills an Other

      Funny you mention that scene.

      The way it all goes down in the show is because of all the birds in the tree outside making noise. After it’s all done they fly away like they’re breaking free from control, just like in s7 when the NK looks at them. IMO it was Bran controlling them. Because if the birds weren’t there, Sam and Gilly wouldn’t have gone outside.

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    216. The Wolves of Winter,

      About the rest of Tyrion’s speech you recited that I had left out:

      “He is our memory, the keeper of all our stories. The wars, weddings, births, massacres, famines. Our triumphs, our defeats, our past. Who better to lead us into the future?”

      Let me humbly disagree. For me, Tyrion’s rationale is as flimsy as the “because memories” logic for NK targeting Bran nka 3ER 2.0. I do not get the connection. How does Bran‘s ability to function as a registry of family trees and encyclopedia of historical events make him the best leader? Not once did he exhibit wisdom, compassion or empathy. I did not see any demonstration of leadership qualities.

      Quite the contrary. The only glimpse we got of King Bran the Broken was a brief visit to his small council. He showed no interest in running his government. Other than to offer to see if he could locate a runaway dragon on his radar system he had nothing substantive to contribute.
      It reminded me of Groucho Marx as Captain Spaulding, who showed up at a party held in his honor just long enough to sing: “Hello, I must be going.” King Robert showed more interest in the administration of his kingdom’s affairs.

      I did not sense that Bran “knows and understands humanity better than anyone” – or at all. At least not anymore. He has become robotic, socially inept, and unfeeling. (See, e.g., his inability to express gratitude to Meera and blowing her off; embarrassing Sansa by mentioning he was peeping in on her on her during her horrible wedding night; failing to tell Sansa or Jon that he knew their long lost little sister was alive and well at the Crossroads Inn; despite knowing LF was a lying, sociopathic sack of sh*t, allowing him to run rampant in WF and almost pull off a sinister sister vs. sister scheme.)

      I detected no human emotion or initiative on his part. His factory default setting is to say nothing and glare, or spout Zen mumbo jumbo like “you were exactly where you were supposed to be.”
      (I won’t get into his dubious management skills in allowing Bronn “I don’t understand financing: I just like gold” Mnuchin to serve as Master of Coin.)

      As for showing “wisdom like in the very first episode where he questions his father for executing Will” way back in Season 1 episode 1, that’s a pretty outdated and threadbare resume.

      That he “also isn’t a Stark anymore, so he is not tied to any House or family” isn’t very compelling to me. A leader who does not have strong family ties is not someone I’d trust. But that’s just me I suppose.

      I did not see anything that demonstrated that “he doesn’t only care about his own family, he cares about all humans.”. Can you cite some examples? All I saw was the supposed leader of a war-torn country who could not be bothered with the tasks of rebuilding it. He got wheeled in, and got wheeled right back out without showing he “cared” about anyone let alone all humans. caring” about anyone. Or did I miss something?

      Meera was right. Brandon Stark “died in that cave.” Whatever he is now – 3ER 2.0? A half human half something else? – he is no longer a full-fledged human being. Whatever “understanding” of “humanity” he may have had has been drained away. (“Let sh*t happen” is hardly a governing philosophy I would attribute to a “wise” king or a successful reign.)

      Those are my perceptions. I’d really like to be persuaded that I missed the boat. Can you point out something I should rewatch that might change my mind?

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    217. The Wolves of Winter: Funny you mention that scene.

      The way it all goes down in the show is because of all the birds in the tree outside making noise. After it’s all done they fly away like they’re breaking free from control, just like in s7 when the NK looks at them. IMO it was Bran controlling them. Because if the birds weren’t there, Sam and Gilly wouldn’t have gone outside.

      Thank-you for this interpretation. My issue is that this scene happened in season 3, before Bran had a controlled handle on his warging powers and well before he met the Three-Eyed Raven. It’s after Bran becomes the Three-Eyed Raven that he seems able to intentionally warg ravens with deliberate control.

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    218. Ten Bears: Can you point out something I should rewatch that might change my mind?

      The whole show. Every terrible thing that has happened throughout the whole story is because of characters acting out of their own or families interest. It’s all a chain of revenge.

      I mean, Robb wanted to avenge his father. What has it brought him? His death, his wife’s death, his mothers death, his childs death, his wolfs death, pretty much all of his soldiers and the country suffered because of it. But what if he succeeded in killing Joffrey, do you think the Lannisters would be ok with that? No of course not. The war would just go on and on and on and on.

      And while Bran appears to not care or love, he also appears not to hate or hold grudges. He’s passive and doesn’t act on emotion, kind of like a Jedi (who are trained to let go).

      Ten Bears: that’s a pretty outdated and threadbare resume.

      It is still a part of the story, so you can’t ignore it.

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    219. Adrianacandle: Thank-you for this interpretation. My issue is that this scene happened in season 3, before Bran had a controlled handle on his warging powers and well before he met the Three-Eyed Raven. It’s after Bran becomes the Three-Eyed Raven that he seems able to intentionally warg ravens with deliberate control.

      Let me explain further, I think Bran warged into those birds through time like he did with Young Hodor. Of course it could’ve been old 3ER, but we never see him do any warging. So I think it was Bran.

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    220. Ten Bears: “What the f*ck’s a clou?”– S. Clegane, Lexicologist

      dear S. Clegane,
      a clou is the product of someone not being able to imitate some sort of english language. the easiest way to come around with a clou is to sit in front of the screen and wonder “what’s that f(star)ing word i’m looking for?”

      in my case, the best way out was to use any word from what’s left in my humble brainy. no matter if this word means the same to people who are capable of fluent and proper english. try and error, words moghulis anyway.

      this said, let me swear to the old and the new gods: i once had the term “punch line” back in my mind, and i even knew what it meant 😉

      seems the lack of practice had some influence on my posting skills.

      hope to serve you with this answer. yours very sincerely D.B.Chickenfire

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    221. Geezzzzz-
      Here I was hoping someone would have some interesting guesses on who should play Daemon Targaryen….

      Alexander Skarsgard?? or maybe Charlie Hunnam????? I also like Timothee Chalamet. Especially after I watched him in Netflix’s The King. I just don’t know if Deamon would be a good part for him….Does anyone have any interesting ideas?

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    222. Ten Bears,

      He harped on about the urgency of telling Jon he was the “heir to the Iron Throne” but the disclosure of the secret of his parentage led to Dany’s breakdown and Jon’s banishment back to the Wall.

      Why could those results not have been Bran’s intent? He knew Jon and Dany had the best claims to the throne, and if he wanted to be king, pushing one Targ’ over into madness and having the other one banished would be exactly the course of action for him to take.

      With Bran and Dany, Martin created two powerfully dangerous characters, and skillfully presented them as little more than naifs, seemingly in need of ‘adult’ assistance. A person who appears harmless can get away with all kinds of mischief, often in plain sight.

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    223. Think it’s about time I got around to reading Fire & Blood which has sat on my shelf for almost a year now. Reading through that will get me stoked for the new show I hope.

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    224. Ulfie,

      I don’t entirely disagree, but there are a lot of good movies where the ending was already known in advance.

      Malcolm X, Schindler’s List, Apollo 13, to name a few.

      As long as the ending is actually good, I don’t entirely mind knowing what will happen.

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    225. Mr Derp,

      While I was still working full-time in London, I had been away for a weekend and had started watching “Young Winston”* but had to leave in time to catch a train back to London to make it to work next day. I mentioned I’d been watching the film but not seen the end and a work colleague said “He went on to be Prime Minister in the second World War” or words to that effect.

      * The late Simon Ward who played the title role was a nice-looking man in his younger days.

      If we are trying to get back on point about suitable Daemons the only two I can think of offhand are both mid-30s – a bit young for the part. I thought of Bradley James – King Arthur in the BBC’s “Merlin” and Evan Williams (who is Canadian) who played the King’s brother’s gay love interest in “Versailles”.

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    226. This reminds me of something Martin had to say on the subject of tales where the endings are already known:

      Fantasists enjoy certain freedoms that historical novelists do not. I can surprise my readers by killing kings and other major characters, but the fate of the kings and conquerors in the real world is right there in the history texts, we know who lives and who dies before we ever crack the novel open.

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    227. I’m a supporter of series 8 as is – it was a good and fitting finale. In an odd way, the fact that folks protested the Dany nemesis ending – proves that it was right. How so? The clues were always there that demons lurked within the dragon queen. Her hypnotic appeal brought many characters under its spell, and many viewers. We forgave her the violent excesses because her ideology seemed so pure and righteous. And that’s exactly the point. The Dany manifesto was so compelling that millions of us were drawn in. The road to hell was paved with good intentions. Many saw a social justice warrior and were willing to allow or forgive her anything.

      But not Varys, or Tyrion, or Jon Snow. And neither, in fact, Jaime Lannister. The entire series began and ended with the Jaime Lannister conundrum. He was the king-slayer, right? He suffered under that stigma, which became a bitter root that produced a corrosive cynicism in Jaime (“the things we do for love”). And yet we discover that he killed the Targaryen king only to avert destruction of Kings Landing by fire. Ironically Jaime dies when the holocaust he had prevented by his regicide is fulfilled by Dany Targaryen, and unlike Jaime, Jon Snow is too late in betraying loyalty to a monarch to avert disaster.

      Series 8 episodes such as the battle with the dead at Winterfell are outstanding epics rivalling anything in Lord of the Rings. The effective use of darkness, cloud and confusion add to a bone-chilling atmosphere. The series feints at certain end scenes which never unfold (we all know that Arya is going to kill Cersei, right?), and thus escapes predictability and serves up rewarding surprises right to the end. The deaths of Cersei and Jaime, alone, consummated their mutual retreat from a world that had damaged them beyond repair. GOT is a brilliantly moving and illuminating drama poignantly illucidating the human condition: series 8 was the right ending as well as spectacular filmcraft.

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    228. Dire Guineapig,

      DP, I can’t remember if you are a reader of the ASOIAF novels but in the scene where Daenerys burns the witch it is mentioned that MMD who had henceforth been somewhat scornful of Daenerys changed her expression so that Daenerys saw ‘something like fear’ in the witch’s eyes.* In retrospect I thought that could have been an indication of the way Daenerys was to rise in power in the series. By book 5 I was finding Dany less likeable than I had originally.

      * Going from memory so this may be an approximate quote rather than an exact one.

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    229. Sharon: Geezzzzz-
      Here I was hoping someone would have some interesting guesses on who should play Daemon Targaryen….

      Alexander Skarsgard?? or maybe Charlie Hunnam????? I also like Timothee Chalamet. Especially after I watched him in Netflix’s The King. I just don’t know if Deamon would be a good part for him….Does anyone have any interesting ideas?

      Me too, but it’s just the same old same old. Nobody seems to want to talk about anything except rehashing the same arguments and complaints.

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    230. Grandmaester Flash,

      Sorry, didn’t mean to come off like that. It’s been a long ass day. I stand by what I said, but should’ve been more positive about it. There’s too much negativity in the world as it is.

      I’m tired of some of the same old conversations too, as I noted towards the beginning of the thread.

      Here’s your daily Burlington Bar Reaction Video (Winds of Winter Pts I & II):

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    231. Dany was backed into a corner. Sure, Jon didn’t want the throne but Sansa knew of his claim and it was only a matter of time before the other houses knew also–Sansa wasn’t going to accept Dany as her ruler. From having three fully grown dragons and the largest army the world had ever seen, as well as Houses Tyrell and Martell on her side, Dany was now left with: a few hundred soldiers and Drogon (enough to defeat the city guard, but not near enough to run an empire), no friends or real allies and, most importantly, no real claim. She therefore (after Jon rejected her marriage proposal) only had three options: concede the throne to Jon outright, kill Jon (and become the legitimate ruler again–which would have triggered war with the North anyway) or rule not as a queen but as a Khaleesi instead.

      Given that she chose the third option (her attack on Kings Landing is surely proof enough that she’d lost all hope of ruling in her “good queen” image and that she was trying something very different), the best chance she had was to strike so quickly and so hard that people would be so scared of fighting against her they would join her Khalasar (this theory is backed up by her speech in Kings Landing where she further makes clear her plans). Perhaps her “let it be fear then” line (after Jon rejected marriage) was a little too cryptic, and the writers should have made clearer what she was actually planning, but it seems to me this is surely what happened–not that she simply “went mad overnight”. The “let it be fear” line is proof that it was a planned attack and strategy, not just a spree of violent revenge. I do think it was missing a link to sow the seed of Dothraki warfare in our minds, but isn’t that exactly how they conquer?

      It, also, did seem she was having second thoughts–possibly to imply that she was considering conceding the throne to Jon–as she sat looking over Kings Landing. Then Tyrion’s bells rang out (Tyrion, who had talked her multiple times out of taking the Red Keep when she first arrived) and it made the decision for her. The anger she felt snapped her back out of it and went ahead with her “ruling by fear” plan anyway.

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    232. Richard,

      Well, Dany and Jon never discussed marriage. Per the writers, Jon was certainly uneasy with incest and stopped their physical intimacy but marriage didn’t come up between them on-screen. Varys, Tyrion, and Davos discussed a potential marriage between them but that’s it.

      Also, I think Dany still had the support of the Ironborn, Dorne, and her Unsullied and Dothraki forces were looking pretty plentiful and healthy still. Plus, Drogon was able to decimate the Golden Company and the Iron Fleet just about all on his own.

      the best chance she had was to strike so quickly and so hard that people would be so scared of fighting against her they would join her Khalasar (this theory is backed up by her speech in Kings Landing where she further makes clear her plans).

      I didn’t see Dany’s speech supporting this idea. It seems to me that Dany truly viewed the burning of King’s Landing as a “liberation” and wanted to take this war against the whole world to “liberate” everyone.

      Her speech is as follows:

      Blood of my blood! You kept all your promises to me. You killed my enemies in their iron suits! You tore down their stone houses!

      You have given me the Seven Kingdoms!

      Torgo Nudho, you have walked beside me since the Plaza of Pride. You are the bravest of men, the most loyal of soldiers. I name you commander of all my forces, the Queen’s Master of War.

      Unsullied! All of you were torn from your mothers’ arms and raised as slaves. Now you are liberators! You have freed the people of King’s Landing from the grip of a tyrant! But the war is not over. We will not lay down our spears until we have liberated all the people of the world! From Winterfell to Dorne, from Lannisport to Qarth, from the Summer Isles to the Jade Sea, women, men, and children have suffered too long beneath the wheel. Will you break the wheel with me?

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    233. Richard: The “let it be fear” line is proof that it was a planned attack and strategy, not just a spree of violent revenge. I do think it was missing a link to sow the seed of Dothraki warfare in our minds, but isn’t that exactly how they conquer?

      I think the first part of your statement has been debated heatedly with some saying it was planned while D&D as characterized the decision as spontaneous.

      Either way, I think the primary difference between a conquest and Dany massacring the city is that Dany did so after the city surrendered, not to induce the city’s surrender. As a result, it did feel like spree of violence to me — and one targeted at the people rather than making a beeline for Cersei. It wasn’t just the Dothraki going to town on the people, it was the Unsullied, Dany, and the Northern forces too (the latter who ignored Jon’s orders to stop) so I’d have a hard time characterizing it as Dothraki warfare.

      D&D’s words on Dany’s decision:

      Benioff: If circumstances had been different, I don’t think this side of Dany ever would’ve come out. If Varys hadn’t betrayed her, if Cersei hadn’t executed Missandei, if Jon hadn’t told her the truth. Like, if all of these things had happened in any different way, then I don’t think we’d be seeing this side of Daenerys Targaryen.

      Weiss: I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was… going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, where she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to– to make this personal.

      Anyway, I know the reasons for Dany’s decision here and when she decided to do this have been hotly debated and I’m not particularly eager to get into that debate again. I think people have, by now, settled on their preferred interpretation and aren’t really budging.

      So I guess… Your Mileage Mary Vary? 🙂

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    234. Richard:…only had three options: concede the throne to Jon outright, kill Jon (and become the legitimate ruler again–which would have triggered war with the North anyway) or rule not as a queen but as a Khaleesi instead.

      I’m sorry for a third comment. I wanted to touch on this too.

      When Dany took the city from Cersei upon the city’s surrender to her, she was legitimately queen by right-of-conquest regardless of claim. Technically, neither Jon or Dany were heirs to the Iron Throne since it was still under Baratheon rule until Dany took it again. Had the throne still been under the Targaryen dynasty (ie. if Aerys was not overthrown or Rhaegar succeeded him) and depending on who survived (if Rhaegar’s eldest son was not killed), Jon and Dany would be in line for the throne. Jon would come after Elia’s Aegon, Rhaenys would come after Jon, Viserys would come after Rhaenys, Dany would come after Viserys.

      I think(?) that’s the correct line of succession if all of Rhaegar’s family survived and Viserys was still alive (had they not been exiled with Viserys agreeing to sell Dany to Khal Drogo for a Dothraki army).

      Still, I acknowledge that the show wasn’t going with this and considered the son of Rhaegar Targaryen as the heir to the Iron Throne despite Cersei still holding it.

      However, if Jon were killed in a claimant war, yes, that’d likely trigger a war with the North and probably with the Vale since they are allied with the North. Still, I think Dany’s odds would be pretty good against them. As it was in the show, she still had Drogon (who managed to take the Iron Fleet and Golden Company in one fell swoop), the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Ironborn, Dorne, and whatever’s left of Highgarden. Plus, considering that Dany ended up wanting to wage war on the whole world to “liberate” it, I don’t know think avoiding war with the North was her primary concern.

      In the books, I think this role would be fulfilled by Young Griff, who is posing himself as Elia’s Aegon, Rheagar’s firstborn son and was raised to be king and rally support of the kingdoms.

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    235. Adrianacandle,

      Clarification!

      With my final paragraph about Young Griff and the role I think he’d be fulfilling in the books, I meant as a rival claimant to Dany and one who’d win the love of Westeros, rallying the support of the kingdoms.

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    236. Mr Derp: The two people complaining about nothing new haven’t brought anything new to add to the conversation. Add something, otherwise it’s complaining just for the sake of complaining.

      We weren’t complaining about “nothing new”. We were complaining that nobody was discussing the subject in the lead article – casting an actor to play Daemon Targaryen. Something new!

      I admit that I didn’t add anything – I’m still trying to come up with good ideas – but Sharon did. She made several casting suggestions, but was ignored by everybody except me.

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    237. Mr Derp: Have you seen New Mutants yet, TB?I’d be interested to hear your take. It’s getting really bad reviews, so far.

      I have not seen New Mutants. It’s not safe to go to the movie theater here in Epicenterville, Florida. Just about all movie theaters within a thirty mile radius remain shut down. There is one theater about fifteen miles away that’s showing movies with reserved seating, including New Mutants. I’m not willing to take that risk. I’ll wait for it to come to cable.
      I’ve read some reviews of New Mutants. Some good, some not so good. Frankly, I’m not that interested in the angsty teens with superpowers in detention storyline.
      I want to see the Rahne/Maisie Williams & Dani /Blu Hunt romance that’s been teased. Fights against generic CGI monsters: I can take it or leave it. The prospect of high thread count, interpersonal scenes intrigues me.

      Meanwhile, (all six episodes of) “Six Weeks to Live” premiered yesterday, Sept. 2, on Sky TV.
      I’d be interested to hear from our UK contingent.

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    238. Ten Bears: Frankly, I’m not that interested in the angsty teens with superpowers in detention storyline.

      I feel the same. Ever since Harry Potter came out it seems like there are at least half a dozen or so of these “angsty teens with elite superpowers” movies that come out every year. It’s so boring and unoriginal.

      Poor Maisie. She keeps getting cast in bad movies.

      Probably didn’t help that New Mutants went through so many rewrites and changes. Plus, the fact that it’s not being screened for critics. From what I understand, the only way to review this movie is to go to the theater and risk catching Covid.

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