Episode 268 – A Secret Throne
Download | Subscribe | Support
Join us by the fire, let’s dive back into the season premiere. This marks episode two of opening week — enjoy inspired musical readings of listener submitted correspondence, with dramatic discussion of topics Westeros, and beyond.
Discussion Topics
Flashback?
Cersei’s fortune
The hedge knight
Northward
Trading up Targaryens
Those behind the Thrones
Listener Owns
When is the preview for episode 2 going to be posted ?
cihan234,
Did you mean this?
You guys are cute… Cersi’s “fourth” child was a show invention. They are pretty much just retconing that with this prophecy from the book because changing it to “gold shall be their crows except 1 with brown hair that will die early” was not going to fly.
cihan234,
Preview Posts are done every Friday.
Brandon Stark’s Monster,
Here’s the problem. The show fucked up. They created a continuity error with regards to the black-haired baby Cersei mentioned to Cat in the first season. So that baby is either a lie on Cersei’s part or Maggy’s prophecy is a lie. Or it’s a big continuity screw-up (realistically what it is).
The show is the show and the books are the books. The response of “Oh you silly people, in the books-” doesn’t cut it. They’re not dumb. They know there are books, but the show needs to be consistent and make sense within itself.
Sue the Fury,
The baby wasn’t a lie. Cersei also talks about him with Robert in their famous sitdown about their marriage, and Robert would obviously know.
Sean C.,
Right. And Maggy the Frog is a bona fide prophetess and not a liar, which leaves us with the realistic answer of big honking continuity error that show-only viewers are going to notice, and we can’t expect them to go reading the books to get an explanation about the conflicting info.
Sue the Fury,
I suppose something like that was bound to happen. Referring to the original content after deviating from it in the first place can really mess things up.
The only way they could fix it is if they somehow assume that the child was simply a bastard who Cersei and Robert thought was theirs. I’m currently in my OCD mode right now, hoping they realize this and fix it next season…
Or maybe we can believe that the reason her first son died was because he was not meant to be alive, according to the prophecy. It can be a reason we can conclude with, for the show.
Lexyvil:
Well both Lancel and Tyrion’s beard have gone brunette so it’s possible that another twincest baby could have been not blonde. Of course it still doesn’t explain why there were four kids for Cersei when Maggy said three.
Let just put it with other unexplained things like the Mountain’s dramatic weight fluctuations, Daario’s haircut of instant handsomeness and the fact that
Great episode guys! Had to remind though, Dany being unburnt with the birth of the dragons was a one-time event confirmed by George. Targaryens can in fact be killed by fire and there were a couple of them in Westeros’s history who met their end this way.
Or perhaps the kids that die early “do not count” in Westeros. Wasn’t there a tradition of 2 years wait before giving child a name?
While it hard to make sense of the Tyrion/Varys confirmation
To be fair though, on top of the Varys/Illyrio onversation in season 1 there was also this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-mRcaQIU48
Tyrion asks Varys what he wants, he doesen’t seemed to have answered after getting Tyrion to “play first” but if you think about it he actually has, which is to say his “warning about Dany coming” over is actually what he wants. Clue is how he quickly looks about before he starts mentioning it
We put what Tyrion wants (real power) and Varys wants (Dany to come over with the Dagons) it is a bit of a precursor to the Illyrio’s Mance scene where he is somewhat offering the opportunity for Tyrion to have real power under Dany, perhaps in a Hand role…
And they did. I’m gleefully witnessing the “Completely Unspoiled Community” at Previously.tv’s forums (They’re the real deal, well policed and strict). They pinpointed everything quickly, including Cerise’s mention of the black-haired baby to Robert that discounts Cersei just lying to Catelyn.
I can easily interpret the prophesy of her having 3 children as the number of children she actually wants to have and raise etc.
I think that was also what Jaime told Loras (at Joff’s wedding) she would do to any child he would plant in her once they get married.
So no big deal here in my eyes if you don’t take everything word-by-word 🙂
How is this a continuity error at all? I’m really confused here.
Didn’t that “black-haired child” die as a baby? He had to, didn’t he? And I’m pretty sure that was specified to be the case. So what’s the problem, then? Maybe some people aren’t aware, and this may sound callous but… those didn’t count in that era. Even in the time of my grandparents (on rural backwards as shit Spain, anyway) parents didn’t say “We’ve had 10 children” if half of them had died in childbirth or as babies. They would say “We’ve had 5 children”; only those who survive the tricky early days were counted.
allamaris,
That’s the wildlings. But it doesn’t matter, really: even monarchs and rich people in real Medieval Europe, and presumably in Westeros as well, lost a heck of a ton of kids during childbirth and as babies. Most of them, actually. Very few babies reached adulthood. As I said, those that didn’t survive were rarely taken into account.
Well, why not? As I recall, Catelyn responds to the tale with something like “I’m sorry, I didn’t know”. Wouldn’t she have read about it in the Westerosi equivalent of Hello! magazine, or some shit?
Luka Nieto,
I think that’s a reasonable explanation for the continuity problem. Children who dies as infants doesn’t count in those times.
As for Varys backing the Targaryens but sending poison to Dany I’m going with the explanation that they originally intended to get Viserys as a puppet ruler. He would have the right name but no family or other connections to back him up so Varys could just rule from behind the throne. Then when Dany hatched the dragons they changed their mind to her.
We’ll have to see which parts of the book that is included on the show about this. There might be more to this but this is what I’m going with so far.
Sergei Walankov,
She could’ve lied to Catelyn, except for the fact that Robert and Cersei mention their dead baby in private in 1×05 or so.
Game of king chairs,
Completely agreed. They wanted Viserys for his name, and intended to control him more than they could ever control Robert. And when Dany proved herself as a liberator and a ruler and a mother of dragons, they decided to back her genuinely. When the plot to assassinate her was devised, she was just a tool for them, a tool to be married away to a savage in exchange for an army.
Yes, and it’s hinted that Cersei killed her own child because it was Robert’s and not Jaime’s, so she didn’t seem to have considered it as her own at all.
Prophecy has always played around with words and meaning in this series. Why are people tripping up now?
Valaquen,
Because “actually, in the books…”, that’s why 😛
hihi *bookslap* 😛
Your explanation is great, bookwankers should go and cry over at westeros.org
Luka Nieto,
^This.
Everybody says Aerys had 3 children because those who died as infants simply ‘didn’t count’, and this is historically accurate inf
Sue the Fury,
Prophecies are always played around w/ and happen in strange ways.
Cersei DID get pregnant w/ Robert in the books, and aborted the child. She made the prophecy come true. Same thing in the show, she had Robert’s child, but the child died, making the prophecy come true.
In the end, she raised 3 children, so I don’t think its a “BIG” continuity issue.
Luka Nieto,
^This.
Everybody says Aerys had 3 children because those who died as infants simply ‘didn’t count’.
Game of king chairs,
I found this great video that explains Varys’ motivations that might be considered inconsistencies.
HelloThere,
yeaaaah I’m still going to call BS on it, because the show’s baby didn’t die at birth. Maggy’s prophecy counts all of Robert’s children, even the ones who were tiny babies when murdered. If his babies who Robert never even met count, Cersei’s baby with Robert counts. So Show-Cersei had four children, and it conflicts with the prophecy.
I know people are trying to make it work because “well, in the books” but it was a show mistake that anal-retentive fans like us will just have to ignore or creatively make excuses for.
Sue the Fury,
yea, but…
I guess I just don’t care enough to make it a big deal, lol.
In my mind, Im just going to say she and Robert’s child died because it betrayed the prophecy (fate)
or Cersei tried to fight the prophecy and couldn’t….
thats fine enough for me to move on,
lol.
Sue the Fury,
But how do you that Robert’s children who died as babies counts, there’s no indication ( in the books or the show )to the number of bastards he had it could be anywhere from 20 to 100 and only the one who survive”d infancy were counted in the prophecy.
Black-haired baby fits into the big investigation of season 1, back when they weren’t into Prophecies
But they are now, hard to escape the feeling they break and make an exception when it feeds into whitewashing Cersei, Day in the life seems to suggest showrunners have a good relationship with Lena Headey so one wonders if they are making excuses.
Similar to how Tyrion just magically accepts fan favourite Bronn deserting him in his hour of need. At least we have the good Oberyn speech to make up for that
Should have always been using flashbacks from season 1, ala Breaking Bad which used them perfectly.
Ultimately the big point is the “Gold will be their hair and shrouds” in that they are going to be outlived by her, plus the Queen part.
Is worth remembering Qyburns suggestion in the books that “Maegi the Frog” may have put a blood magic curse on Cersei, in which case she would only take an interest in the children growing beyond infancy
I’m not too cut up because unfortunately we are seeing plot inconsistencies all over the place, from Prince Dorans youngest son to zero gold mine output which is absurd and “why did you sentence me to death”, gee might be something to do with trial by combat working that way
The books aren’t immune from this, eg stallions turning into mares apparently and Jeyne Westerlings hips etc…
KrakenDaughter,
Exactly we haven’t even met all of Roberts bastards so one could say one could claim only the ones who got passed infancy counted.
Special GOO demand:
When the dust has settled on season 5, please PLEASE have a ladies’ memorial episode inviting both Selina and Kate to share their personal news and views. We need sexy ladyvoices.