Glass Candle Dialogue Season 7, Episode 4: “The Spoils of War”

HBO-Photo-3-1

This week Luka and I plunder the “The Spoils of War.” We join poor Meera in grieving for Bran, wax poetic about bittersweet Stark reunions, unite unexpectedly in defense of Daenerys and, of course, rave about that Loot Train Attack Battle of the Field of Fire.

Petra: Well, then!

Luka: That episode was amazing.

Petra: I think we should save the dragon battle for last since that’s probably what we’re going to talk the most about.

Luke: Fair enough.

Spoils1

Petra: Right. Can we start on a bit of a downer and talk about Bran? Because he’s been haunting me since Sunday. I think when the show is over and I’m looking back at it all, Bran’s storyline will be the one that disturbs me most. The more I think about how this wonderful boy has just gone numb, the sadder it makes me.

Luka: Jon Snow died and got better, and Sansa and Arya went through their own horrors, but they’re all still recognizable as their characters as we first met them. Meanwhile, Bran … I think Meera put it perfectly: Bran died in that cave.

Petra: Absolutely. And shout out to Meera! If this is the last we’ve seen of her, then she had no closure or catharsis. She truly is the sole survivor of that expedition.

Luka: You know me. I’m not one to complain about underserved minor characters. Game of Thrones is an adaptation. There are two dozen main cast members already, half of whom are main characters with storylines of their own, so some of the minor ASOIAF players need to be either excluded or simplified. That said, I loved Ellie Kendrick in her small role… but if this is their final farewell, then I’m a bit miffed. That frustration may be the point, of course, but it bothers me how little screen time she got in the end. If Meera isn’t returning in season eight (along with her father of course!) and this really was Meera’s final scene, then I would have liked to have seen more of her before she left.

Petra: Hear, hear! Speaking of tragedy, have you seen Deer Hunter? It’s a tough watch and I don’t necessarily recommend it but it’s about these friends whose lives are destroyed by Vietnam. At one point Robert De Niro’s character comes home and he’s looking for his friend, Stevie. And he finally finds him in this hospital confined to a wheelchair and, you know, the lights are on but no one’s home. It’s this incredibly upsetting scene between these two people who used to know each other. That’s what Arya and Sansa’s reunion with Bran reminded me of. Kudos to Isaac Hempstead-Wright, by the way. He could very easily have come across as just a boy sitting in a chair reciting lines but we still get a sense that Bran’s thinking. He’s just emotionally detached from it all. I suspect it’s a much harder performance to give than it appears to be.

Luka: At first I thought the monotone would get boring but I was wrong. In fact, I found two of his acting moments particularly compelling. One was his reprise of Littlefinger’s “chaos is a ladder”, of course, and the other one was the way he offered the blade to Arya. I get that he’s essentially an emotionless computer now, but he did it particularly nonchalantly, as if he was hiding its significance. I think he knows something we don’t.

704 - Winterfell - Arya, Bran

Petra: Why do you think Littlefinger gave Bran the dagger? What do you think his master plan is at this point? Because I’ve honestly got no idea.

Luka: Petyr as the all-knowing master planner always struck me as a misunderstanding of his character. He has a number of discreet plans to arrive at the goal he revealed to Sansa in last year’s finale. He tries to prepare for every eventuality, but he doesn’t actually have a master plan. People ask, “How did he know that such and such would happen?” He didn’t. He just knew that it could happen so he prepared for it. So that’s fine by me. My question is, before his inevitable demise, he’s going to try something. He’s doing something with Bran and Arya. He’s obviously trying to do something with Sansa.

Petra: I wonder if he’s shifted his focus from Sansa to Arya. I’m saying this simply because Sansa outright distrusts him at this point. She told Bran, “He’d never give you something unless we wanted something in return.” Arya is a little bit less level-headed, I think. Or at least she’s got a serious predilection for violence that is probably easy to manipulate. So he could be like, “Look, Sansa is my endgame – cause she looks the most like Catelyn – but in the meantime maybe I’ll use the violent tendencies of her sister to drive a wedge between them … and somehow throwing this really important dagger into the mix will help create discord between the siblings.”

Luka: All we know for sure is that he wants to stir shit up, but we don’t know how he’s going to do it. I’m looking forward to seeing how it all blows up in his creepy face.

704 Winterfell Arya Brienne

Petra: I feel like Arya and Sansa are developing a grownup version of their old dilemma: Sansa’s trying to be stately and organized and Arya wants to fight, except this time around we’re intended to empathize with Sansa more than Arya. She knows that her sister has a list of people she wants to kill, which is a legitimately upsetting thing to have. And she was watching her spar with Brienne – which was amazing – but it demonstrated Arya’s aptitude as a killer. It reminded me of that line from the first book, “All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty the way they were in the songs.” Here she’s looking at her family and going, “I got my brother back and he’s a weird robot tree and I got my sister back and she’s a killer and why can’t everyone I love just be okay?

Luka: Sansa’s reactions to Arya receiving the dagger and fighting have been interpreted by some as jealousy, and I must ask… What the fuck are these people talking about? She’s worried for her sister, and probably scared of what she’s become, as she should be. When Sansa first hears of Arya’s list, she laughs, because she’s still looking at Arya like the fierce little girl she once was; it’s so Arya to make a kill list, isn’t it? How funny! Then, when Bran makes clear the list is for real and Arya was about to go kill Cersei in the capital, Sansa doesn’t laugh. By the time she sees Arya fight with Brienne, she understands how fucked up Arya has become. I enjoyed this slow realization very much, as I did the subtle way the siblings catching up was handled this time round. Bryan Cogman said recently that writing reunions is always tricky. The temptation is to have the characters recount their stories in great detail to each other but that’s never as interesting as it sounds. With Sansa and Jon, they skipped the whole thing, though, so we weren’t sure what they knew about each other; this time the writers found the perfect balance. Instead of recapping their storylines, Arya and Sansa acknowledged they have both gone through shit but survived, and that’s what matters.

spoils5

Petra: Speaking of pitch-perfect greetings, I don’t think it gets any better than, “Jon … I didn’t know you were here.” I mean, what more is there to say? Through no fault of my own, I came across an on-set photo of Jon throttling Theon last summer. From their body language I thought Jon was legitimately trying to asphyxiate Theon. So, when Jon was talking to Daenerys in the cave about how “just like the Children of the Forest and the First Men we have to put aside our past enmities” I wondered if he’d see Theon and then be like, “I TAKE IT ALL BACK! AAAGGHH!”

Luka: Speaking of the cave, what do you think about Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington’s chemistry? I actually like it and I didn’t expect to. Their characters can’t exactly be described as “fun,” but I found there was some electricity there.

Petra: I have a hard time differentiating between chemistry and writing but, simply put, a Daenerys/Jon pairing is at the absolute bottom of my To Care list. I’m not saying they’re poorly written together, I just cannot scrape together the emotional energy required to give a single damn about whether or not those two hook up.

20170810_150618

Luka: I feel like I’m being superficial if I say “I ship it” but… I think I ship it. I’m Jonerys trash now. Seriously, though, I like them together because, in addition to their stark differences, they have many parallels. They’ve had strangely similar journeys.

Petra: I have to credit Tumblr’s many gifsets of Jon/Daenerys parallels for expanding my appreciation of those characters as a pair. I guess when I hear the question, “What do you think of Jon and Dany?” I take it in the romantic or sexual sense – in which case I do not care – but if we’re discussing their chemistry as two characters sharing an important plot then I think they are really, really good together. Do you want to talk about that little, “Bend the knee” quandary they still have?

Luka: Sure. You told me earlier you have strong feelings about Daenerys in this episode.

Petra: Yeah. It feels really strange to say this but I’m actually on Daenerys’ side, here.

Luka: Oh wow! I thought I was going to clash with you on this. I actually prepared a list of defenses of Daenerys. It’s frustrating that everything she says or does is always painted in the most terrible light by a certain portion of the fandom.

Petra: Daenerys is trying to rule the seven kingdoms. She’s playing the long game. Jon’s laser-focused on stopping the Night King, which is noble, but Daenerys is going, “Look, after we’ve cancelled the apocalypse I’m still going to be the queen.” It’s weird that people have a problem with her wanting to control Westeros when this is what she’s been on about since Viserys got his golden crown. My problem with Dany’s campaign in Essos was the way she – and the writers – placed a moral spin on her actions: “I’m entitled to topple these power structures and cultures because they’re bad and I know better and the people will adore me for it.” At least there are no white savior or colonial undertones to her conquest of Westeros. She’s just a dragon queen preparing to fuck shit up like she’s always planned to and she demands loyalty from her subjects.

Luka: I think both she and Jon were being reasonable. Daenerys was wise to accept the reality of the White Walkers based on the new evidence but that doesn’t mean it’s realistic for her to throw everything else out of the window. At the same time, though, Jon made a good point, the same Mance Rayder once did: he can bend the knee, but he was chosen by his men to lead them, so there’s no telling if they will still follow him if he makes a decision that runs so contrary to what they freely chose him for.

Petra: Except that the Northerners lived under a southern king for three centuries until Robb was proclaimed king. So, they should be able to readjust to a southern monarch pretty easily if they just think back seven years. Look, if everyone was mad at Jon I’d be coming to his defense, but as things are people seem more annoyed with Daenerys. So, for the first time I’m actually siding with her. It’s a crazy world we’re living in.

Spoils2

Luka: She’s also been accused of being paranoid about Tyrion’s loyalty. But let’s be fair here: she doesn’t know what we do about his relationship with Cersei; how deep the hate runs. Of course, there’s also that Daenerys isn’t entirely wrong to suspect that Tyrion’s feeling divided. He clearly didn’t want Jaime dead.

Petra: They’re really pushing this Mad Queen thing with her and I’m not buying it. It was unfair of Daenerys to accuse Tyrion of treachery (though I do think he’s feeling conflicted), but at the same time people are allowed to get angry when things go wrong. Stannis was angry at Melisandre after Blackwater but fans didn’t go, “Oh, no, he’s given into Baratheon madness.” Daenerys got upset at Tyrion because his strategy has cost her nearly all of her allies yet her reaction is framed as the first signs of madness. She’s not crazy-mad; she’s angry-mad. Furthermore, I think we need to clear up what “Targaryen Madness” even is. It’s implied in season 1 that Aerys was schizophrenic. Renly said, “The Mad King slaughtered women and babies because the voices in his head told him he deserved it.” Setting aside the fact that I don’t appreciate them calling a schizophrenic evil, that is in no way comparable to Daenerys getting snippy with her Hand. Using dragons in battle isn’t what her father did. It’s what Aegon the Conqueror did!

Luka: Exactly. If she’s following in anyone’s footsteps, it’s Aegon’s. In fact, she’s taking a more measured and civilized approach to conquering Westeros than Aegon did. Maybe that wouldn’t have been her first instinct, but with Tyrion and now Jon at her side I think that she’s making the best moral decisions that she can, provided that military conquests are inherently ugly. I honestly don’t know what people expect.

Petra: Thank you!

704 - Reach - Daenerys 1

Luka: She hasn’t done half the reprehensible shit as other characters, some of whom are considered noble, yet she’s relentlessly shat on. She’s held to an impossibly high standard. In this episode she fought her enemy after they killed and sacked one of her allies. She wanted to attack King’s Landing with her dragons, not because she’s crazy, but because, as she explained beautifully, she feels that she’s letting her allies die without lifting a finger herself, that if she doesn’t risk her own life for her people then she isn’t worthy of being their queen. That’s not the rationale of a mad woman!

Petra: She’s been a fan favorite since season 1, so I’ve gotta ask: what else did people think was going to happen? What else was implied when her dragon were born? Did people think it would be a How to Train Your Dragon-styled “Forbidden Friendship” montage? I’m just so confused. People have been talking about dragons for seven seasons and it’s just now occurring to them that it entails men burning to death.

Luka: The only truly damning thing she did was burn part of the Reach harvest. Is that just “Fire and Blood” or is that part of her strategy to lay liege to King’s Landing?

Petra: The YouTuber Alt Shift X made a good point in one of his videos that Tyrion has advocated taking King’s Landing peacefully with minimal civilian casualties … by starving the city out. So, that’s what Daenerys was doing when she burned the food. It’s an ugly tactic but it’s what Tyrion told her to do. But with no danger of a smallfolk BBQ!

Macall B. Polay - HBO (Photo 9) (1)

Luka: Petra, you don’t understand. Tyrion is a good, wise man!

Petra: [Makes smothering sounds] He’s a fan favorite so he can say whatever he wants!

Luka: He’s an intelligent man and Daenerys is a crazy woman. I think we may have just stumbled into why some people are reacting the way they are. Shocker!

Petra: Ok, brief topical detour. I do still like Tyrion but his fan immunity to criticism is really wearing thin on me. He’s that special kind of prick who believes he’s allowed to insult people while also feeling entitled to hold a grudge for the insults that he incurs indefinitely. He makes eunuch jokes at Varys and that’s fine but he’s still holding onto those off-screen dwarf jokes that Theon made in the first two episodes of season 1. He’s allowed to say and do things that are destructive or obnoxious but heaven help you if you hurt him. I bring this up now because I worry that that’s what happened when Daenerys accused him of remaining loyal to his family.

Luka: Petra. Petra, be honest. Do you just want to talk about Theon some more?

Petra: [Long pause] No. I won’t be selfish. We’ve got a dragon battle to talk about.

44

Luka: Ok, before we get to the battle itself I want to talk about Dickon’s conversation with Jaime and Bronn, which actually made me really sad. It’s obvious that Randyll’s fathering had a horrible impact on Sam but I wonder if Dickon fared any better. It was tragic to see him almost shell-shocked when he referred to the Highgarden battle as “glorious.” He was afraid to show any emotion. It’s Randyll’s toxic hyper-masculinity pushed to the absolute horrific extreme. It felt like a very human moment for him to express himself to people who wouldn’t shout at him for showing a bit of vulnerability.

Petra: I like that they had that conversation to remind us of the horrors of war immediately prior to a battle sequence that largely played into audience wish-fulfillment, with the beautiful cinematography and the giant fire-breathing dragon. But even after the battle started, we were continually reminded that what we were watching was both majestic and horrific. We saw close-ups of men trembling right before they were burned to a crisp. It harkened back to Arya’s encounter with those Lannister soldiers. We said at the time, “Lannisters are going to get roasted” and we were right.

Luka: Their humanization paid off.

Petra: It felt like a return to the moral ambiguity of earlier seasons.

Lannister versus Dothraki The Spoils of War

Luka: The battles of Blackwater, the Wall and Winterfell were more strategically elaborate and they had much more build up throughout the season, while Hardhome was more sudden and shocking. But in terms of pure spectacle and personal stakes nothing the show has ever done comes close to this Field of Fire (I’m not calling it the Loot Train Attack. That’s lame). We’ve never seen this level of photorealism before, this authenticity. When Drogon directed his fire at a few soldiers and they were immediately turned to ash, it was horrific but at the same time it was sort of beautiful.

Petra: I really love that heartbreaking, disturbing image of Lannister soldiers on fire trying to crawl into the water. A man took off his helmet and we saw his melted skin. It’s reminiscent of the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. Then it cut to this beautiful shot of Drogon, who is the cause of all this suffering, gliding over a river with the water rippling in his wake. If I had a print of that shot I’d frame it and hang on a wall, yet it comes immediately after this horrible image of carnage. I didn’t now how to feel at that point. Similarly, when Jaime was galloping towards Dany and Drogon I remembering thinking, “I don’t know what I want! I care for all three of these people but at least one of them has to get hurt.” I haven’t felt that way since Brienne fought the Hound.

Macall B. Polay - HBO (Photo 8)

Luka: I don’t think any other fully fledged battle divided our allegiances this much. Sure, we liked Davos and maybe Stannis at the Battle of the Blackwater, but half the cast was in King’s Landing, so we were pretty confident in who we were supposed to be rooting for. To pit Jaime against Daenerys and Bronn against Drogon … however you may feel about Cersei and Daenerys as queens, these are all characters that we’ve been invested in for 7 years. Something I’ve noticed in reaction videos is how happy everyone is when Bronn survives the Dothraki stalking him only to switch over into horror when they realize that Bronn reaching Qyburn’s scorpion now puts Drogon’s life in danger.

Petra: That was amazing.

Luka: It was glorious.

Macall B. Polay - HBO (Photo 10) (1)

Petra: One of Dany’s dragons has to die. I’m just wondering how and when it’ll happen.

Luka: Which one do you think will go first?

Petra: I feel that, since Daenerys is the sort of mother who plays favorites, Drogon would be the most devastating death for her. Killing Rhaegal or Viserion would be like killing off the children no one cares about.

Luka: They made Rickon’s death work, though.

Petra: They did, didn’t they? Still, if Drogon was the first to die that would probably be the more satisfyingly tragic option, particularly if he dies from his shoulder wound. That would be more anticlimactic than a spear to the eyeball but far, far sadder.

Luka: I don’t know if that’s why you’re specifying Drogon, but death by infected chest wound would connect him to his namesake.

Petra: [Gasps]

Luka: [Laughs]

Petra: Oh. My. God.

177 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Apollo,

      I missed that despite the fact I’ve rewatched this episode probably a dozen times. It’s way too vague to say whether thats really Catelyn’s ghost, but the timing during the scene is certainly curious. Cool stuff.

        Quote  Reply

    2. “The YouTuber Alt Shift X made a good point in one of his videos that Tyrion has advocated taking King’s Landing peacefully with minimal civilian casualties … by starving the city out. So, that’s what Daenerys was doing when she burned the food. It’s an ugly tactic but it’s what Tyrion told her to do. But with no danger of a smallfolk BBQ!”

      The problem with this logic is that it’s entirely unnecessary to burn the food. She can just take the food for herself. Earlier in the episode, she was complaining about Cersei taking all the food.

      Why doesn’t she just steal it back after winning the battle ? Deliberately burning so many wagons of food is just stupid. By taking it she can starve out KL, AND feed her army.

        Quote  Reply

    3. Apollo:
      Has anyone seen the shots of what appears to be Catlyns “ghost” walking past at Winterfell on two occasions? One of which when Arya mentions her before sparring with Brienne? Spooky- and a great little Easter egg! 😝

      http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2017/08/game-of-thrones-s07e04-a-ghost-at-winterfell.html

      Jesus Christ that’s terrifying. Doubt the show meant for it to be Cat, but now every time I see it I’ll think of that.

        Quote  Reply

    4. Markus Stark,

      All of that food would’ve been tainted by ash, dust, and fire, no matter what she did. Nothing would’v escaped that battle.
      “You are the blood of the dragon. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. ”

        Quote  Reply

    5. The problem with Dany asking Jon to bend the knee if he wants her help against the WW is that it’s not only inhumane, it’s also unintelligent and against her own best interest.

      Dany is essentially saying that if the Northerners don’t submit to her, she will let them all be slaughtered. Not very moral.

      Plus, the North is useless to her if everyone in it is killed, and in any event, she’ll have to fight the WW anyway once they make it to the South.

      If she were a true Queen, concerned for her people, she would fight the WW whether they bend the knee or not.

      I posted this Stannis quote from the books earlier this week, but I’ll put it again here : “Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne“.

      If she’s Queen of ALL seven Kingdoms, including the North, then they are her people, and she has a duty to protect them.

      By demanding that Jon bend the knee if he wants help, she’s implicitly saying that if they don’t recognize her as their Queen, they can all die, thereby putting her rights ahead of her duty.

      Being a Queen doesn’t mean sitting on a throne, it means leading and protecting your people.

      Plus, even if she had no duty towards them at all, it would still be evil to just let thousands of people die when you know you can save them.

        Quote  Reply

    6. The “Loot Train Attack” tells me now more than ever that “Battle of the Bastards” was a George name, not a D&D name. Take that, Stanninnites.

        Quote  Reply

    7. HelloThere:
      Markus Stark,

      All of that food would’ve been tainted by ash, dust, and fire, no matter what she did.Nothing would’v escaped that battle.
      “You are the blood of the dragon. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. ”

      She still didn’t need to deliberately destroy them all. I’m pretty sure ash tainted food will be better than no food at all, come winter.

        Quote  Reply

    8. Ginevra:
      The “Loot Train Attack” tells me now more than ever that “Battle of the Bastards” was a George name, not a D&D name.Take that, Stanninnites.

      What is your reasoning for that conclusion ? Not saying I disagree, just curious.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Drogon appears to be fine in the preview for Eastwatch, but it’s hard to tell for sure. He’s definitely flying, so he’s improving from what we were left with in Spoils of War. I’m HOPING he’s ok.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Ginevra,

      The difference though is, “Battle of the Bastards” is meant to be a name that exists in the world. Hence Hot Pie referring to it.
      I believe “Loot Train Attack” is just what the show runners are calling the set piece in their production notes. I doubt we will hear people in the script calling it the “Loot Train” anytime.

        Quote  Reply

    11. I don’t think those ballistas were coated in poison. There isn’t a particularly great look at them in the episode, but you can see the heads of them briefly when Bronn is loading and there doesn’t appear to be anything on them. Though, if they were coated with poison I’m not so sure they would make it visible anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    12. I will say my allegiance was more divided during Blackwater.

      Not because I liked Stannis (I really didn’t at that point, because I hadn’t read the novels yet), but because I really, really wanted Joffrey to be dethroned. Badly. My hatred for the Lannisters was visceral at that point, and I wanted someone, anyone, to defeat them.

      On the other hand, I loved Tyrion (he was probably my favorite character at that time), so I was incredibly torn.

      This time around, I wasn’t particularly divided. I’m “rooting” for Dany to defeat Cersei in the overall war, but as a character, I’m infinitely more attached to Jaime. A Jaime death would be much, much worse for me than a Dany death.

      So overall, I had to root for Jaime and Bronn against Drogon and the Dothraki.

      Drogon is badass to me, but I have no emotional attachment to the dragons. They are fire-breathing monsters after all. The horror they unleash is not a pretty sight. I don’t view them as sweet, loyal beasts, like most people do. They’re terrors. Gorgeous, awesome, epic terrors, but terrors nonetheless.

      I think it would have been an incredibly bold and genuinely shocking move for Drogon to die here, and I wouldn’t have shed a tear, but of course, he is destined for much greater things than just roasting a few Lannisters.

        Quote  Reply

    13. HelloThere:
      Ginevra,

      The difference though is, “Battle of the Bastards” is meant to be a name that exists in the world.Hence Hot Pie referring to it.
      I believe “Loot Train Attack” is just what the show runners are calling the set piece in their production notes.I doubt we will hear people in the script calling it the “Loot Train” anytime.

      Yeah, definitely. Battle of the Bastards only works as a name for me because it’s an in-world name, and it makes total sense from that perspective.

        Quote  Reply

    14. HelloThere: All of that food would’ve been tainted by ash, dust, and fire, no matter what she did. Nothing would’v escaped that battle.

      Hopefully, Dany and Tyrion will have some thoughts in this next episode regarding the “overdrive” mode with Dany’s dragons, with some regard to the careless destruction of valuable resources. Dany still needs to hone those skills with “Winter” in mind (something she’s never experienced)…and wear armor. Hopefully, there were more “straggling” farmers throughout the Reach who are still harvesting some grain!

      Nice convo, L & P. Thanks for not being an obvious J&D shipper, P!

        Quote  Reply

    15. Luka Nieto:
      Markus Stark,

      This is what I was talking about when I said some people interpret her in the worst possible light. Jesus Christ…

      I’m not though. I’m not “interpreting anything”. She said “I will fight for the North when you bend the knee”.

      That means what it means. She’s clearly stating that unless Jon bends the knee, she won’t be going North.

      The reality of that statement is that thousands will die, and she’ll have to fight off the WW anyway when they come south.

      It also means she isn’t making the survival of her people a priority. The priority for her is being recognized as Queen.

      There is no other way to “interpret” what she said.

      Saving people even if they refuse to bend the knee would be the right thing to do, and so far, she hasn’t agreed to do that.

        Quote  Reply

    16. I feel like Arya and Sansa are developing a grownup version of their old dilemma: Sansa’s trying to be stately and organized and Arya wants to fight, except this time around we’re intended to empathize with Sansa more than Arya. She knows that her sister has a list of people she wants to kill, which is a legitimately upsetting thing to have. And she was watching her spar with Brienne – which was amazing – but it demonstrated Arya’s aptitude as a killer. It reminded me of that line from the first book, “All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty the way they were in the songs.” Here she’s looking at her family and going, “I got my brother back and he’s a weird robot tree and I got my sister back and she’s a killer and why can’t everyone I love just be okay?”

      I’m going to respectfully disagree with this current interpretation of Sansa. Personally, I believe that Sansa was impressed and perhaps even delighted with Arya’s badassery and is planning on using it for her own ends, especially with Cersei being on Arya’s list!

      Sansa isn’t the pretty little princess anymore, as D&D tell us here in the analysis of Sansa’s first kill where she set up her husband to be eaten by his hounds and then walked away.

      https://youtu.be/1k0YsrTBEYM?t=5m17s

      Dan Weiss: This isnt’ the little girl who wanted to dress up like a princess anymore. Her walk away at the end of this scene – and that’s one of my favorite shots we’ve ever had – there’s just a little ghost of a smile on her face. She’s in Winterfell, but she’s not the person she was when she first left.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Michelle Fairley was seen at the Winterfell set this year. So the Cat Ghost might be a real thing?

        Quote  Reply

    18. Amazing discussion you two!!!
      I love your Daenerys talk… and agree with you wholeheartedly.

      Contrary to most people, I was not torn on which side to cheer for when I was watching the battle.

        Quote  Reply

    19. The more I think about how this wonderful boy has just gone numb, the sadder it makes me.

      One scene that struck me emotionally about this was seeing Arya pushing Bran in his wheelchair with Sansa close behind. It made me think that no matter what state Bran is in now, he’s still family. His sisters still care for him as their brother. I have seen this in my life. Not in my family, but with someone else I know. The parents had a son who had a brain injury and never was the same. I could see how they loved him for who he was now and supported him in every way until they lost him about a year ago. I saw how his brother and sister cared about him. I know this is bringing real life into fiction, but the scene with the Starks together in the courtyard really hit me.

        Quote  Reply

    20. Tron79,

      Definitely a sweet scene there. Btw I think Maester Wolkan is seriously underestimating the value of copyright! That dude could sell so many wheelchairs that he could probably buy Winterfell!

        Quote  Reply

    21. Mr Derp: That dude could sell so many wheelchairs that he could probably buy Winterfell!

      Yeah, especially after all these battles! Ugh. I still think Tyrion’s saddle design for the lame (Bran) should be explored more.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Did anyone read the article that said GRRM was originally supposed to have a love triangle between Arya, Jon Snow, and Tyrion?

      I am sooooooooooooooo glad GRRM didn’t proceed with that one.

        Quote  Reply

    23. Markus Stark: What is your reasoning for that conclusion ? Not saying I disagree, just curious.

      GRRM loves alliteration, similar sounds, and poetic titles: “Field of Fire,” “Dance of the Dragons,” “Battle of Blackwater,” “Fight at the Fist,” “Fall of Harrenhall,” and so on. D&D seem to go the more utilitarian route.

        Quote  Reply

    24. I had an insane fear that Drogon was going to be killed. As much as I really enjoy Bronn and his warped sense of humor I find my love of the Dragon much more important to me. I keep saying, “no, no, no” aloud until my husband said “they can’t hear you.” I love Tyrion and the inner turmoil he must have felt during the battle is something no one should have to feel. Friend and Family? How do you choose? We all know Tyrion has no love for the Lannister’s, but Jaime is a different story. We all agree that we don’t believe Jaime is dead, but with all that weight on him, he should be. I’m rooting for Dany over Cersei, but I’m really tired of Jaime and Cersei as “a thing.” The man is a total idiot when it comes to her and I’m afraid that is going to be HIS downfall. Overall, it was a great episode, but again, it feels like it’s going too fast. I’ve said before I wouldn’t want D&D to drag it out unnecessarily, but this just feels so rushed.:(

      Ah, well, just an opinion after all.
      Elizabeth

        Quote  Reply

    25. Markus Stark,

      There was some controversy over whether or not it was really her, however I distinctly remember it being discussed. Most likely I read about on this site, but I don’t have the time to search it, right now.

      I’m sure it’s just a cheeky Easter egg and nothing more. Anyone else remember this?

        Quote  Reply

    26. Hodors Bastard: Yeah, especially after all these battles! Ugh. I still think Tyrion’s saddle design for the lame (Bran) should be explored more.

      Hodors Bastard,

      It’s Wolkan! He’s the real bad guy. He’s the one pulling the strings to set up all these wars so he can put in motion his master plan to sell more and more wheelchairs. That son of a bitch!

        Quote  Reply

    27. mau:
      Markus Stark,

      Ofc she will fight for the North, but it a process. It takes time for her to change her primary motivation.

      I agree. But as you say, it isn’t her primary motivation right now.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Mr Derp:
      Did anyone read the article that said GRRM was originally supposed to have a love triangle between Arya, Jon Snow, and Tyrion?

      I am sooooooooooooooo glad GRRM didn’t proceed with that one.

      Thank the Old Gods and the New.

      To be fair though, a LOT of things were radically different in the original outline. Jaime was eventually gonna take the throne after Joff’s death, and Sansa didn’t even exist, so I think Arya was quite a bit older.

      Tyrion was gonna burn Winterfell, later this was given to Ramsay. Cat was going to flee North of the Wall with Bran and die there.

      It was massively different.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Ginevra: GRRM loves alliteration, similar sounds, and poetic titles: “Field of Fire,” “Dance of the Dragons,” “Battle of Blackwater,” “Fight at the Fist,” “Fall of Harrenhall,” and so on.D&D seem to go the more utilitarian route.

      Oh, I agree with that, I’m just not sure what the name of the loot train battle has to do with it. I mean, it’s not actually going to be called “the Loot Train Battle” in-universe. Or it better not, at least.

        Quote  Reply

    30. HelloThere:
      Ginevra,

      The difference though is, “Battle of the Bastards” is meant to be a name that exists in the world.Hence Hot Pie referring to it.
      I believe “Loot Train Attack” is just what the show runners are calling the set piece in their production notes.I doubt we will hear people in the script calling it the “Loot Train” anytime.

      You could be correct, but why wouldn’t they title the video and call the battle by the battle’s official name? I’m assuming that this is one of the two major battles that we see this season. Or do you think that this battle was minor enough that it didn’t warrant a name and won’t be referred to by name in any future episodes?

      “The Loot Train Attack” Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2wcBeyNdk

        Quote  Reply

    31. Elizabeth:
      I had an insane fear that Drogon was going to be killed.As much as I really enjoy Bronn and his warped sense of humor I find my love of the Dragon much more important to me.I keep saying, “no, no, no” aloud until my husband said “they can’t hear you.”I love Tyrion and the inner turmoil he must have felt during the battle is something no one should have to feel.Friend and Family?How do you choose?We all know Tyrion has no love for the Lannister’s, but Jaime is a different story.We all agree that we don’t believe Jaime is dead, but with all that weight on him, he should be.I’m rooting for Dany over Cersei, but I’m really tired of Jaime and Cersei as “a thing.”The man is a total idiot when it comes to her and I’m afraid that is going to be HIS downfall.Overall, it was a great episode, but again, it feels like it’s going too fast.I’ve said before I wouldn’t want D&D to drag it out unnecessarily, but this just feels so rushed.:(

      Ah, well, just an opinion after all.
      Elizabeth

      I honestly expected this season to be much, much more rushed than it is.

      The worst part was the Casterly Rock / Highgarden stuff, but aside from that, the pacing has been pretty good.

      Overall, I expected a lot more action and a lot less dialogue in these first four episodes.
      It’s actually a little odd, because now there are only 9 episodes of this show left, and I feel like there’s still way more ground to cover than I thought there would be at this point.

      Either they’ll have to drastically simplify the story even more, or the final 9 really will be insanely rushed.

        Quote  Reply

    32. Ginevra: You could be correct, but why wouldn’t they title the video and call the battle by the battle’s official name?I’m assuming that this is one of the two major battles that we see this season.Or do you think that this battle was minor enough that it didn’t warrant a name and won’t be referred to by name in any future episodes?

      “The Loot Train Attack” Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE2wcBeyNdk

      I think it may not have an in-universe name.
      Or at least, we won’t hear it on the show.

      But yes, it was one of the two big battles for this year.

        Quote  Reply

    33. mau:
      Markus Stark,

      Until she sees the Army if the Dead I think she will underestimate how big that threat is.

      Definitely. No one fully understands yet, except the WW obsession club (Jon, Sam, Bran). Even Davos probably doesn’t quite get it, as he hasn’t seen it yet.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Mr Derp: It’s Wolkan! He’s the real bad guy. He’s the one pulling the strings to set up all these wars so he can put in motion his master plan to sell more and more wheelchair

      Lol. It’s really all about economics and real estate.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Loved the bit about Dickon and the way the Tarly family dynamics seem to work – surely I’m the not the only one who is reminded of Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin when thinking about the relationship and dynamics between Sam, Dickon and Randyll Tarly. There is the absolute contempt for one son who the father wishes dead, the impossibly high standards for the other son who is only good enough as long as he fits the mold of a perfect soldier, and the cold, cruel, emotionally distant father at the head…

        Quote  Reply

    36. Nice write up, appreciate your points on Dany and especially the notion that she is following in Aegon’s footsteps and not her father’s. You are absolutely right; she has 3 dragons, this is what they were made for. Aegon did a lot worse (field of fire). Dany was simply retaliating….

        Quote  Reply

    37. Markus Stark:
      The problem with Dany asking Jon to bend the knee if he wants her help against the WW is that it’s not only inhumane, it’s also unintelligent and against her own best interest.

      Dany is essentially saying that if the Northerners don’t submit to her, she will let them all be slaughtered. Not very moral.

      Plus, the North is useless to her if everyone in it is killed, and in any event, she’ll have to fight the WW anyway once they make it to the South.

      If she were a true Queen, concerned for her people, she would fight the WW whether they bend the knee or not.

      I posted this Stannis quote from the books earlier this week, but I’ll put it again here : “Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne“.

      If she’s Queen of ALL seven Kingdoms, including the North, then they are her people, and she has a duty to protect them.

      By demanding that Jon bend the knee if he wants help, she’s implicitly saying that if they don’t recognize her as their Queen, they can all die, thereby putting her rights ahead of her duty.

      Being a Queen doesn’t mean sitting on a throne, it means leading and protecting your people.

      Plus, even if she had no duty towards them at all, it would still be evil to just let thousands of people die when you know you can save them.

      I agree with you 100%. I also think Danny doesn’t want to be judged by what her father did, but wants the throne just because she’s his daughter. It’s like white privilege + leading from the back.
      She’s given no indication that she’ll go north even if Jon doesn’t bend the knee.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Apollo: Has anyone seen the shots of what appears to be Catlyns “ghost” walking past at Winterfell on two occasions?

      Luka Nieto:
      Apollo,

      Oh please. Just… no.

      I didn’t see this until just now. I wouldn’t put it past them doing such a thing on purpose as an Easter egg, but no, probably not as part of the story itself. It is a bit too coincidental to have a such a similar woman in hair and dress ‘glide’ past behind Arya just as she says the line about her mother and Brienne’s promise. We don’t see too many women quite that ‘classy’ in the background in Winterfell/The North scenes.

        Quote  Reply

    39. dany:
      Markus Stark,

      Markus Stark,

      This is not a show on morality. If the North refuses to bend the knee to Dany, she has no duty to risk her life, the life of her dragons and that of her armies to protect them.

      dany,

      I partially agree, but if morality didn’t play any role in the show then Daenerys wouldn’t have cared so much about freeing slaves in Essos. She freed them on moral grounds.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Lol, everyone either seems to love or hate Dany. Am I the only one who just… LIKES her?

      Like, my feelings towards her are more positive than negative (and I agree with pretty much everything you guys said in this article), but there are other characters I’m more emotionally invested in.

        Quote  Reply

    41. BigMac:
      Lol, everyone either seems to love or hate Dany. Am I the only one who just… LIKES her?

      Like, my feelings towards her are more positive than negative (and I agree with pretty much everything you guys said in this article), but there are other characters I’m more emotionally invested in.

      BigMac,

      For me, I probably feel the same as you. Generally I like her, but I like other characters more such as Arya, the Hound, Jon Snow, Tyrion, Brienne, and maybe more.

      Sometimes I feel the “controversy” around Daenerys for fans that either love or hate her is insufferable.

        Quote  Reply

    42. BigMac,

      Honestly, same 🙂
      Though this is how I feel about most of the characters.

      Though I am strange, considering Cersei Lannister is my favorite, but that might be more because I love Lena, and this show would feel empty without her.

        Quote  Reply

    43. OMG THANK YOU – Luka and Petra, for your insightful and compassionate interpretation of Bran’s arc. I have been getting so miffed these past couple of weeks reading tweets, comments and reviews from people who claim to be experts on this story and yet completely miss the mark when it comes to Bran.

      Comments such as:
      “Why is Bran being such a little shit?”
      “Bran’s emo-teenager schtick is getting old.”
      “Bran is acting like such a snob.”
      “Why is Bran being such a dick to his sister?”
      and on and on and on …

      He is none of those things … he’s a kid who has had the entire history of the world downloaded into his brain before he was ready and he is just overloaded, fried. The old Bran is in there somewhere, but he’s nothing but a page in a book in a library, so …lost. He has had, and still has, a major role to play in this story ever since he was pushed from that window.

      But just like Jon, he didn’t ask for it, he’s not happy about it, but he accepts it.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Mr Derp,

      Same.

      There are so many times I want to have a measured and intellectual conversation about her but it always devolves. I don’t get it.
      Dany conversations are the reason I refuse to engage in game of thrones conversations on YouTube or Reddit.

      its like people forget she’s a fictional character

        Quote  Reply

    45. Mr Derp,

      Yeah, characters like Arya, the Hound, Tyrion, and even Davos, are among my favourites, so while I like Dany, I find myself more invested in them.
      Even characters like Jaime and Theon. They’re not among my favourites, but I find their arcs very interesting, and I’m really curious to see how they end.

      After this episode, I was breathless, and was really looking forward to seeing what other people had to say about it… and, like 80% of it was just people arguing about Dany. It got annoying really fast.
      (Lol, first world problems 😛 )

        Quote  Reply

    46. Mr Derp,
      I’ve never understood hating Daenerys and/or Jon. I can understand frustration with the Meereenese Knot, but I can’t transfer that to dislike of a character. What’s more baffling is the hate for one because of the love for another even though they’re the two largest pieces of the same puzzle. *shrug*

      Through the BOOKS released my favorite character list is:
      1. Arya
      2. Daenerys
      3. Jon
      4. Tyrion
      5. The rest of the majors equally
      The show has gotten me to the point of:
      1. Arya
      2a-b. Jon & Daenerys
      3. Tyrion
      4. Davos
      5. Jaime (slowly dropping)
      6. Sandor

      I can’t get enough Arya in either medium.

        Quote  Reply

    47. I feel like I’m being superficial if I say “I ship it” but… I think I ship it. I’m Jonerys trash now.

      Hahahaha….. Luka, what has D&D done to us? I am starting to feel the same, and I was dead, dead against this sort of a pairing before this season. I was against it, because I see them both as strong characters, and I didn’t want either of them to be slightly devalued because of a “romance”!

      Awesome write-up, both of you. I liked the take on Arya-Sansa. And Bran of course. As well as Tyrion. And the sudden influx here and elsewhere of the “Daenerys is always mad/bad no matter what she does” crowd – they are rather transparent, one-note and boring, tbh. There were less of them on this site previously, but they seem to have migrated here more recently. I suspect there are also some bitter Jonsa fans among them. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    48. Markus Stark,

      She believes that there is a threat without actual proof. For all we know there was a threat, there is no proof of current threat. she doesn’t believe the urgency of the threat. Give her some time she will come around. It’s like everyone wants her to BE evil. We know Jon since we were invested in his story since S1E1. Dany doesn’t know anything about him, she has to take him on his and Tyrion’s words.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Mr Derp,

      Morality did not obligate her to free the slaves. She was, after all, not their captor. She did it of her own volition because she felt their plight, and in response the slaves acknowledged her leadership. On the other hand, the North has refused to acknowledge her leadership and legitimacy. In spite of this, she has allowed their leader to mine the weapon needed to destroy the common enemy. Nobody has a moral right to demand help from another, especially when the person demanding for help refuses to meet the terms of the other party.

      I don’t recall any evaluation of the actions of the men in this show such as Tywin and Jaime from this moral arch. So I am perplexed why Dany is being held to the standard fo a savior. She is here to conquer westeros, not to save the North from its pride.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Markus Stark,

      You have the benefit of knowing everything that’s happened in the story. Some of these characters don’t have that luxury. You have to put yourself in the shoes of a character, then you’d find that some of their decisions and actions make sense.

      Try thinking exclusively from Dany’s pov for a minute:

      1. Just as the Mad King killed Jon’s grandfather, Ned Stark had a hand in killing Dany’s father, her brother, her brother’s children. These people, in Dany’s eyes, were cause for much of her painful childhood.

      So, in the same way Jon and the rest mistrust a Targaryen, Dany mistrusts the Northerners.

      2. For Dany, the usurpers of Westeros have been seen as the main enemies all her life. Destroying them and winning back what she believes was taken from the Targaryens has been her aim throughout the story.

      Now suddenly this bastard son of an usurper shows up, brazenly announces that her great dreams are all ‘childish squabbles’, asks that she drop what she’s doing and join hands to fight some enemy in the North that she has difficulty believing even exists.

      Why should she believe him? Why should she accept to his demands without demanding something in return?

      3. The Whitewalkers, their insane army, their ruthless killing spree, the danger they pose to humanity. Yes, we know Cersei pales in comparison to these monsters. But that’s because we’ve seen them.

      Did Jon or any of his brothers at Nightswatch believe when they were first told about this threat from wildlings or deserters? Did Ned Stark or any Southern ruler believe when the Nightswatch later begged for support?

      But you expect Dany to trust the words of a man she barely knows? For all she knows, it could be a trap.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Markus Stark: I agree. But as you say, it isn’t her primary motivation right now.

      As it was a process for Stannis. He didn’t go “oh ok NW def a priority let’s go” – he had to be convinced… and he also had to have no Better option.

      Do you really think that if Stannis had taken KL and was King and had gotten that letter that he would have ridden north? Or what if he didnt attack KL but maintained his armies and hold on the Stormlands? I don’t. He’d have been too busy trying to conquer the 7k.

      Dany will go north, IMO, when it is similarly the objectively best option. Right now she has little reason to believe the WW attacking the North is even a problem that needs to be dealt with – let alone a pressing matter, other than Jons belief. After all they have never crossed the wall.

      Meanwhile her people are starving on DS and CR and will all die if she does not conquer Westeros. Removing Cersei is an urgent matter of life and death.

      I suspect her attitude will change again once news of the dead passing eastwatch reaches Jon next episode. If there’s no clear move to make against KL using the dragons, she may agree to fly up there with Drogon.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Clob:
      Mr Derp,
      I’ve never understood hating Daenerys and/or Jon.I can understand frustration with the Meereenese Knot, but I can’t transfer that to dislike of a character.What’s more baffling is the hate for one because of the love for another even though they’re the two largest pieces of the same puzzle.*shrug*

      Through the BOOKS released my favorite character list is:
      1. Arya
      2. Daenerys
      3. Jon
      4. Tyrion
      5. The rest of the majors equally
      The show has gotten me to the point of:
      1. Arya
      2a-b. Jon & Daenerys
      3. Tyrion
      4. Davos
      5. Jaime (slowly dropping)
      6. Sandor

      I can’t get enough Arya in either medium.

      Clob,

      Tribalism has generally gotten worse and worse everywhere and GoT is no exception. For some people it’s like you have to be on either this team or that team and there is no in between. I hate that kind of stuff. It’s lazy and childish to an extreme.

      As a general rule, I try to steer clear of any conversations involving Daenerys and Sansa because it just becomes too serious. Or at least tread carefully and I hate that. We shouldn’t have to talk about characters like we’re walking on eggshells.

        Quote  Reply

    53. dany: Morality did not obligate her to free the slaves. She was, after all, not their captor. She did it of her own volition because she felt their plight,

      dany,

      As I said previously, she freed the slaves on moral grounds, and rightly so. I don’t really care about the other stuff you’re talking about. I’m not getting into some Dany vs. character X debate.

        Quote  Reply

    54. Tbh you can make the same complaints against Jon and the Northerners. Do they care about the war that’s happening in the South? They’re completely unconcerned. Jon even went to lengths to call it a ‘children’s squabble’. So from a Southerner pov( Dany and Tyrion et al), you got these Northern folks who want help but aren’t prepared to give anything in return.

      As Tyrion points to Jon in their brooding session- ‘She’s not about to head North to fight an enemy she’s never seen on the word of a man she doesn’t know. Its not a reasonable thing to ask.’

        Quote  Reply

    55. All very well saying Daenerys was retaliating, but she is the one who has started the war. She is the aggressor, she is a foreign invader. I wasn’t at all conflicted during the latest episode, I was shouting for Bronn to bring down the dragon! and then for Jaime to skewer Daenerys. Not that it was likely to happen, but you never know with Game Of Thrones.

      I don’t like Daenerys. My dislike for her is not sudden: it has grown steadily throughout the series. I don’t like how she treats people, imperious little madam that she is. I may be in the minority here, but I’m not alone.

        Quote  Reply

    56. BigMac,

      I just like her too. She is a bad ass, and I used to love her. But this season as totally turned me off from her. In Essos, her namesake made her believe in herself, but her actions made others believe in her. In Westeros, she has resorted to “Bend the knee, I’m queen because my family.”

      It’s probably not her fault because there is no one to save in Westeros. At least not yet. If only she could have been more patient, waited till the White Walkers came down and started killing people, she could ride in on her dragons and save the day, then demand to be knelt to.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Those arguing that wiping out King’s Landing’s food supply are foolish. Food is a weapon of war particularly in a siege situation. Also, Dorgon is basically just firing up what’s in front of him. Dany didn’t plan to just wipe out food. Her own troops could use it.

      And is it more inhumane to toast grain than men?

      As for bending the knee, Jon is right. Most of the Northerners would see him kneeling because Dany has a cute tushie. As we all know by now.

      On the other hand, if she shows up at Winterfell or some other place where the Northerners are going to fight and brings along the a whole group of troops plus her dragons, that might be a good time to do it. If I were suspicious of Jon’s motives and then saw those dragons there to help me, I would certainly not mind that bent knee.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Clob:
      I didn’t see this until just now.I wouldn’t put it past them doing such a thing on purpose as an Easter egg, but no, probably not as part of the story itself.It is a bit too coincidental to have a such a similar woman in hair and dress ‘glide’ past behind Arya just as she says the line about her mother and Brienne’s promise.We don’t see too many women quite that ‘classy’ in the background in Winterfell/The North scenes.

      Exactly. Nobody’s saying it actually is Michelle Fairley or even that Cats “ghost” is gonna appear rattling her chains … it’s just a possible Easter egg or nod to the character. Folks need to get over themselves.

        Quote  Reply

    59. This whole Jon-Dany war of stubbornness is set-up as a parallel to what happened prior with Mance-Stannis. Those two allowed pride to be the deciding factor and paid the ultimate price for it. Had they come to a compromise, Mance could have lived and Stannis could have challenged Boltons with support from Wildlings.

      Dany and Jon will win where Stannis and Mance failed.

        Quote  Reply

    60. BranTheBlessed: So, in the same way Jon and the rest mistrust a Targaryen, Dany mistrusts the Northerners.

      I understand Dany’s natural resistance to northern concerns, but as others have raised, Jon and Tyrion’s thoughts regarding Aemon wouldn’t hurt as part of the “encouragement.” Although it probably won’t happen due to the crazy pace of S7, a heart-to-heart between J & D regarding Aemon’s shared stories and philosophy would be fascinating. I’d selfishly like Aemon’s life and thoughts to have some effect regarding their mutual respect.

      A hypothetical small council of Bran, Dany, Jon, Sam, Tyrion, Sandor and Arya would be the coolest of the cool. (I threw in the Hound just because)

        Quote  Reply

    61. Stopped reading to say Bran is not an emotionless computer. It’s frustrating to me that people are saying that. He’s more like numb and overwhelmed and so focusing on the big picture.

      If he were an emotionless computer, what is his reason to even come and fight in the big battle. Why would he even care if the night ok v destroyed everyone.

      It’s a bad analogy.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Great conversation as always, Luka and Petra! I’ve been looking forward to this all week. 🙂

      I really appreciate the two of you took the time to offer up an impassioned, long-winded defense of Daenerys. I still have a tremendous amount of empathy for the character, and she deserves the type of fair-minded consideration that you offered her here. I’m not saying that the she should be shielded from all criticism for her actions, but some of the slings and arrows that she’s been taking this week has crossed the line into the ridiculous and hateful. Granted, the worst and most vitriolic of such attacks that I’ve seen are happening in YouTube comment sections and other low-quality forums that I’ve been unfortunate enough to stumble across (never, ever, ever read YouTube comments. You will live a longer and happier life). Still, it’s bad.

      Given that Aerys is Dany’s father, the Mad King comparisons are inevitable to a certain extent, both in-universe and out-of-universe, and I have no problem with the show depicting other characters voicing those concerns. But the extent to which certain people are eagerly drawing direct equivalence between the two is facile and malicious, and ignores an abundance of evidence that the show has presented to the contrary. I agree that Aegon the Conqueror is a more appropriate historical parallel for the path on which Daenerys finds herself at this point in the story.

      Luka: I feel like I’m being superficial if I say “I ship it” but… I think I ship it. I’m Jonerys trash now. Seriously, though, I like them together because, in addition to their stark differences, they have many parallels. They’ve had strangely similar journeys.

      You and me both, man. I can’t pinpoint exactly when I boarded the Jonerys ship, but ever since they met for the first time two weeks ago, I’ve been upgraded to a first-class passenger. I may not be the captain yet, but I’m definitely going down with it, wherever it leads.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Grandmaester Flash,

      So, in your hatred for Dany that you so proudly admit, you are gonna rewrite the story are you?

      Dany didn’t start the war. You’ll find that Westeros was in chaos, wars being waged, blood being shed long before Dany had even set foot there. The Lannisters started the war, the moment they decided to kill Robert Barratheon and later Ned Stark.

      Even if Dany had stayed in Essos, the Dornish and Tyrells would be warring against the Lannisters & the Northerners fighting against one another.

        Quote  Reply

    64. I’ve never disliked Dany but the hatred I’ve seen against her borders on irrational.It’s crazy especially considering her role in the narrative it’s clear.I just was indifferent to her.But this season Jon has made me like her.Like I love Jon to death but I also see her PoV.She is just trying to do her best.I have loved every thing on Dragonstone.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Wow, just read the rest.

      I haven’t read one of these before. I didn’t realize this was a “shit all over the fans who disagree with me” feature. Completely obnoxious.

      I’ll pass next time

        Quote  Reply

    66. Also, I have seen some people compare Dany and Stannis.. and how Stannis walked away from his attempts to claim the throne by going north .. Well.. he killed Mance and even threatened to kill the wildlings because they didn’t BEND the knee… Knowing that the whitewalkers exist and that they would need all the man power they could have to beat them

        Quote  Reply

    67. The original Stargaryen,

      Dany already said in this episode that she fights for the North if he bends the knee. And Dany is right. He asking for her to enter in a mission she don’t know anything about, against something she never saw, and all with her dragons and her people. So, of course she needs to be sure he won’t do anything against her. And this is why she insists he had to bend the knee.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Apollo,

      More than anything else, this reminds of that promotional photo of the Waif from last season in which there was a curly-haired man visible behind her, and a section of the Internet became convinced that it was Syrio Forel, back from the dead. People see what they want to see sometimes.

      It could be an easter egg for the fans, but even if it were, I would object, because I don’t think it makes emotional sense. One of the very best quieter moments of this episode for me was when Brienne saw Arya, Sansa, and Bran walking together through the Winterfell courtyard, and Pod told Brienne that Lady Catelyn would be proud that Brienne kept her vow. Given how much horror and unhappiness that Catelyn faced at the end of her life, the prospect of all of her surviving children one day returning home to live safely in Winterfell is perhaps the very best thing that she could have hoped for.

      If Catelyn spirit were indeed wandering through Winterfell in anguish (or say, her sentient zombified corpse were rampaging through the Riverlands), then that image would do more than any other to set her soul at rest. Even if that random extra were playing her ghost, she should have faded away as soon as she saw Arya, Sansa, and Bran together. Her family’s safe, and as whole as it can be now. There’s nothing more she could do. She can go.

      As of this episode, Catelyn Stark’s memory has achieved more peace than one might have ever dreamed possible, and far more than her book counterpart will ever know. As if we didn’t already have 10,000 pieces of evidence that LS will never appear on the show, this episode should have provided the unequivocal final nail into that riddled corpse. With the Freys and Boltons extinct, her children safe, and Brienne having kept her oath, there is absolutely no reason for her to exist, especially now.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Davos “What do you think of her?”

      Jon “Who?”

      Davos “I believe you know of whom I speak.”

      Jon “I think she has a good heart.”

      Davos I’ve seen you staring at her good heart.”

      Jon “There’s no time for that. I’ve seen the Night King, Davos – I looked into his eyes.”

      Davos “I KNOW JON, YOU’VE TOLD US A BILLION TIMES. SHUT UP! ”

      Just because you are fighting the dead doesn’t mean you can’t talk about anything else. Specifically, how much you may be interested in sleeping with someone.

      In fact, I can’t think of a better time to talk about something like that.

      Shut up about the bloody Night King for five minutes Jon – you sound like a stuck record.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Jenny,

      Thats neat. You’re like my opposite, I have never much liked Jon, not disliked him either (just kinda neutral), but Danys appreciation for him causes me to warm to him. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    71. Grandmaester Flash,

      You can have your opinion, but i must say that you and me are watching a very different show. The lannisters started the war, everything comes back to when Jaime pushed Bran from a tower just to hide his incest with Cersei. Dany had always her own journey, that leads to the throne, but of course i predict that this will change quite a bit when Dany sees the NK. The point is, dany is still in her journey. Now she is fighting her enemies, something that everyone does in this show. She is not blowig up innocent peple like Cersei did last season, just to be in the throne. Dany is at war, and fighting her enemies.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Violator,

      Leave him be lmao.He can’t talk about feelings.Remember his talk with Sam at the top of the wall?He’s not a bleeding poet lol.The Night King is his shield.

        Quote  Reply

    73. It took a ‘bastard from the Wall’ to unite a bleeding North, the entire North.
      It’ll take a ‘foreign invader’ to unite the war-torn South.

        Quote  Reply

    74. TheRealwolf,

      lol, it’s like some people think that Dany knows Jon for all her life or it’s a viewer watching the show..they’re pratically strangers to each other..It would be crazy and completely OOC if Dany would just accept to join Jon in in this, without even getting suspicious.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Violator: In fact, I can’t think of a better time to talk about something like that.
      Shut up about the bloody Night King for five minutes Jon – you sound like a stuck record.

      Maybe Dany should send the NK a raven and request that he bend the knee?

      Dany: The Night King has an army, you say? Well, I’ll have to see for myself! Care to join me?
      Jon: Let me have my ship back and we’ll sail north
      Dany: Screw the ship. Say Hello to Viserion…see if he likes you.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Elizabethe:
      Wow, just read the rest.

      I haven’t read one of these before. I didn’t realize this was a “shit all over the fans who disagree with me” feature. Completely obnoxious.

      I’ll pass next time

      Elizabethe,

      I’m glad Im not the only one who got that impression. I generally enjoy the Glass Candle Dialogues, but some of this one felt more antagonistic than previous ones.

        Quote  Reply

    77. BigMac,

      Well, dany is a fan favorite since season 1. She has a very passionate and loyal fanbase. But the more popular she gets and with more focus, the other side with negative reactions ans antis, grows too. i’ve seen those last few days,. It’s a massive war with dany supporters in one side, and her haters in the other side. in the comments section of youtube, reddit, twitter ad facebook. And things can get ugly. In my case, she is my favorite character since the start, so im always up to defend her in those discussions. She is not black and white, she is stubborn but can also be sweet, she has the hot temper but can also be calm. She is complex, not easy, and a hero in her own journey. So, the final point is that you can get pretty massive reactions from both sides, which jus shows in my point of view, how amazing and complex she is..i mean, don’t get me wrong..i love Jon, but i’m all for complex characters that aren’t always so easy know..

        Quote  Reply

    78. Markus Stark:
      Drogon is badass to me, but I have no emotional attachment to the dragons. They are fire-breathing monsters after all. The horror they unleash is not a pretty sight. I don’t view them as sweet, loyal beasts, like most people do. They’re terrors. Gorgeous, awesome, epic terrors, but terrors nonetheless.

      I think it would have been an incredibly bold and genuinely shocking move for Drogon to die here, and I wouldn’t have shed a tear, but of course, he is destined for much greater things than just roasting a few Lannisters.

      I agree wholeheartedly, in several other fantasy stories I’ve read about dragons, the dynamics are usually them as our friends and companions or them as a uncontrollable unknowable destructive and powerful enemy – GOT makes them both, you see them born and they have names, but as they grow you are reminded of how much power they will have and all that power is essentially controlled by one person… and absolute power corrupts. This power imbalance just make me naturally root against Dany sometimes, I guess I favor the underdog, but even early on, given this power imbalance, I recognized that the Westeros gods or the prophecies that lead to Dany hatching the dragons was not so she could have the power to take back the mundane Iron Throne as if she was the chosen savior to rule us all, but to fight the WW, Fire vs Ice. I also think think her dragons shouldn’t survive the story… after the war with the WW are over, their purpose would have been served and the world of Westeros would be better without them going forward. In fact I suspect much of the magic will also disappear along with them.

      Whether Dany survives or not or ends up on the Iron Throne I still debate with myself, but whatever happens and who sits on the Iron Throne is not the main purpose of this story, it is the side-plot. Still interesting, but more of a vehicle to develop, connect, and divide characters before the main event. The ultimate war with the WW is what most of the characters we have been following are destined to fight and each will contribute in a significant and unique way and Dany’s main contribution is to bring the ultimate fire power.

      Well, at least that is how I see all this leading up to – but I could be wrong, lol

        Quote  Reply

    79. I wish Bran had said more in the LF scene, recounting the chaos comment, going further with it so that he was stopped by Meera coming in the door. If there was more to his recounting, it would have had a bigger impact on us and LF….

      I also wish he had said to Arya more about the crossroads, seeing her there with Hot Pie, recounting that she tried to pay him, etc. etc…

      Just go a little further with Bran!

      Love this article – thanks! So many parallels and so much payoff this season.

        Quote  Reply

    80. people who think dany would be mad queen at this point of the story, i honestly suggest to rewatch the entire show again, and pay attention to dany’s journey again. dany is a survivor. A hero. She is nothing like her father, and she makes sure to point this out. Being a mad queen is totally Cersei’s play now. Dany has the ruthlessness of the targaryes, but she is in no way becoming a mad queen. For one, Aegon the Conqueror DID in fact give people the option to surrender, and he wasn’t mad.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Dear Miss Hoover, you have Lyme disease. We miss you. Kevin is biting me. Come back soon. Here’s a drawing of a spirokeet. Love Ralph

        Quote  Reply

    82. BranTheBlessed:
      Grandmaester Flash,

      So, in your hatred for Dany that you so proudly admit, you are gonna rewrite the story are you?

      Dany didn’t start the war. You’ll find that Westeros was in chaos, wars being waged, blood being shed long before Dany had even set foot there. The Lannisters started the war, the moment they decided to kill Robert Barratheon and later Ned Stark.

      Even if Dany had stayed in Essos, the Dornish and Tyrells would be warring against the Lannisters & the Northerners fighting against one another.

      More like Dany is taking advantage of the Westeros Wars to take control.

      Chuck:
      Nice write up, appreciate your points on Dany and especially the notion that she is following in Aegon’s footsteps and not her father’s. You are absolutely right; she has 3 dragons, this is what they were made for. Aegon did a lot worse (field of fire). Dany was simply retaliating….

      Retaliating?… for the 2 attacks that she instigated – that not what is happening – she is attacking.

        Quote  Reply

    83. “But in terms of pure spectacle and personal stakes nothing the show has ever done comes close to this Field of Fire”.

      I agree. I think the big impact was also the fact that we had several big things at the first time in a battle: Drogon in full action in a battle, two main characters against each other in a battle, and the dotharki finally on action. All this made this episode the best so far!

        Quote  Reply

    84. Mr Derp,

      I suspect that may be because you disagree with us this time. The only antagonism I showed was towards the idea of Sansa being envious of Arya and Dany being a power-hungry mad queen. The fact these ideas need debunking is just sad… I consider them deep misunderstandings of these main characters. I’m not even a #1 Dany fan. She’s not even on my top 5 favorite characters, I don’t think. But the irrational vitriol directed towards every one of her words and actions is just astounding to me, so both Petra and I felt the issue needed to be addressed. Even if it was a purely subjective issue, I wouldn’t apologize for giving my opinion. But it goes beyond that. It’s a malicious misinterpretation of a pretty basic story arc. I certainly won’t apologize for not respecting it as a valid interpretation.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Why do we have to like or dislike Dany?
      Why is it that shes the only character people can’t sit down and have rational intelligent discussions on.
      I don’t care about liking or disliking her. I care about having interesting discussions about her decisions and motivations.

      I’ve always been more invested in the complexities of the story telling than in any character, because its all just fiction.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Red Viper,

      Well put! And I’m seeing him respond to what people say and who they are by sorting out something from his new ‘memories’ that relate to them. So, ‘Chaos is a ladder’ isn’t necessarily a warning to Baelish but may be what Baelish’s presence and the word ‘chaos’ triggers in that set of memories.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Wonderful observations, Luka and Petra! Really loved your insight on Dany and Tyrion. I miss our long chats at Con of Thrones. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    88. Hey guys! As usual, a great read, thank you.

      Wow, somebody stepped on your Daenerys toe, didn’t they?!! I don’t subscribe to the mad queen theory regarding Dany, but she’s not my favorite character either, so while I don’t agree with the criticism people are making of her, I have my issues regarding her request to Jon.

      I understand she’s trying to get something concrete out of this meeting. He’s getting the dragonglass, what is she getting in return? However, the way she’s doing it is problematic for me. I actually rolled my eyes when she insisted.

      She said that she was born to rule Westeros. But what she was is born into the ruling class of Westeros, which is not the same. By the time she was born she was like 5th in line to the throne (or 3rd… I’m not sure of who was alive or dead when she was born, but if all the relatives where still alive she would go behind Rhaegar, Rhaegar’s children (the known ones) and Viserys. The point is, if Robert’s Rebellion had not happened her chances of ever ruling Westeros would grow dimmer and dimmer as time went by. At most, she could aspire to a good marriage with… I don’t know, maybe Robb?

      Why do I bring this up? Because people know (and they do) that by the time she was born she was not the heir to the throne. Therefore, in order to validate her claim over the iron throne, she has a lot to prove. Having the name is not enough. Yes, she travelled with huge armies and made a big alliance with important Westerosi houses. Yes, she has 3 dragons… That is amazing! Really amazing. But 1) most of this amazing stuff happened in another continent and Westerosi people were not exactly paying attention; 2) The incredible alliance with the Westerosi houses was sorely tested as soon as she got to Westeros. In a swift move she lost all 3 allies; and 3) she is the daughter of the Mad King… so even if she was the sanest person in the world, she has to do an extra effort to shed that very negative label.

      She asks Jon to bend the knee and in the very next scene she’s asking for his advice because she’s loosing the war… Why would anyone bend the knee to the losing side??

      Maybe now that she’s returning with a victory under her belt things can be different. The problem is, Jon saw her weakness: her initial intention, even if she successfully refrained it, was to go burn Kings Landing to the ground, and that could make him suspect that if she is not propperly rained (?? sorry if this is not the correct term, I am not a native English speaker… obviously) she can be dangerously impulsive. He has seen her chastasing Tyrion (let’s face it, he deserved to be chastised as his strategy is not working), but she did it in front of the very guy she’s asking to bend the knee. Jon was there whe she said she wanted to use weapons of mass destruction to vent her fury… (damn! this sounded weirdly familiar)…

      Anyhow… she ought to tone down her entitlement, because she might end up stumbling in it… As of know she’s looks menacing: you are with me or I’ll fry you. She really has to sell the idea of the benefits of her being the queen (and no… the peaceful Targaryen times is not a good pitch ’cause people remember the number of Rebellions there were during their tenure).

        Quote  Reply

    89. Markus Stark,

      Yes yes me too. For all the things Lannisters done previous seasons. The burning in Riverlands, the killing of Yoren and other gutter rats that would be Night’s Watch, for all the poor souls who tortured and died in Harrenhal, for Red Wedding, for Septa Mordane, for Jory Cassel and all the Starks house hold people back in season 1. Oh man… in really life I don’t hold grudges. But in GoT, I hold them well. Ha!

        Quote  Reply

    90. My issue with Dany is that she talks of pride with Jon not willing to bend, however, she’s coming into a world she, frankly, knows nothing about and is willing to alienate a very strong ally fighting a completely different war over her own pride.

      How about help the North first so that Jon’s bending of the knee doesn’t mean losing the North permanently?

      Or just marry Jon and render the point moot.

        Quote  Reply

    91. BranTheBlessed:
      It took a ‘bastard from the Wall’ to unite a bleeding North, the entire North.
      It’ll take a ‘foreign invader’ to unite the war-torn South.

      Careful there! Hahaha….. 😀
      When “the North” finds out that “the bastard from the Wall” is actually from the South, and is the grandson of the Mad King who burned Lord Stark and his son, and is now friendly with the MK’s daughter, I hope they don’t unite against him. They weren’t all that happy with the idea of him traveling south in the first place.

      HelloThere: Why is it that shes the only character people can’t sit down and have rational intelligent discussions on.

      Preach. This season has been quite Daenerys-heavy, (as also heavy with all the remaining important end-game players) and this has brought many Daenerys-haters stridently out even over here (often repeating the same thing in post after post), that it’s impossible to have rational discussions about any storyline she is in. They are really quite boring.

        Quote  Reply

    92. BranTheBlessed: Even if Dany had stayed in Essos, the Dornish and Tyrells would be warring against the Lannisters & the Northerners fighting against one another.

      What’s so interesting about this is that, from Dornish and Tyrell perspective, things may have actually turned out much better had Daenerys NOT invaded.

      Consider. Without the “foreign barbarian invasion” schtick, Tarlys (and other minor Reacher lords) would have never betrayed Tyrells while Dornish would most certainly have stayed landbound and out of Euron’s reach. The most likely outcome would have been the united Reach-Dorne army assaulting the weakened Lannister forces that wouldn’t be able to deal with their enemies piecemeal. Daenerys’s presence is detrimental to the anti-Lannister sentiment and cause right now, which I find a supremely interesting turn of events, one I can’t say I predicted or even casually thought about.

      D&D managed to even the playing field in a way that is both natural and intelligent. Well done, lads!

        Quote  Reply

    93. Luka Nieto,

      I disagree with you take on this. He did not “interpret” her in the worst possible light. He did not say she was a Cersei. I agree with his comparison to Stannis because that is also what came to my mind when I saw her insistence that Jon bend the knee to secure her help with the WW. Dany is younger and more inclined to let emotions control a lot of her impulses, it happens with everyone. I understand that she needs to bargain but at some point, if you actually believe the dude is telling you the truth, you must really consider the situation. Jon is not telling her “I won’t bend the knee because the North is mine by rights. I love my title and I will keep it. Thank you very much.” He’s telling her that his men will turn his back on him if he unilaterally decides to surrender the North to another ruler (not named Stark). The North is not his to give away. Dany wants the bending of the knee to happen like now, she would be wise to let him go and run it by his people, to try to convince them or warn them about the consequences of not submitting to someone who has dragons and is prepared to let them die by refusing to help or simply forcing them into submission by threatening them, the same way Aegon once threaten Thorren Stark. The North will not be happy about it, no region would really. People prefer to choose their rulers and hate when one is forced upon them. The Northerners were under Southern rule for 300+ years true, but they were under a King in the North/King of Winter rule for millenia before that. Perhaps Dany would be better off if she were to turn North, help them win against the walkers and then be heralded as a savior, the Good Queen Daenerys. Whoever is left would have little problem bending the knee then.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Kay,

      The posters here very rarely go into the kind of vitriol I see in other areas
      mostly Youtube comments section, but youtube comments are usually the worst of humanity besides 4chan.
      Installed a chrome blocker of youtube comments, and everything feels so much better

        Quote  Reply

    95. This may have already been brought up, but on my second re-watch I noticed during the cave scene Daenerys’ line was word for word the same as Jon’s a few seasons back. It was something along the lines of, “You’re putting the lives of your people at risk for your pride.” Jon said the same to Mance when he refused to bend the knee to Stannis. I really liked how they did that.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Jared,

      Just so. And there are several people who walk through that archway that connects the courtyard with the rest of Winterfell; wearing various cloaks etc. They’re castle people, going about their business. It shows that life goes on, that there is more to Winterfell than the Starks who run it.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Luka Nieto:
      Mr Derp,

      I suspect that may be because you disagree with us this time. The only antagonism I showed was towards the idea of Sansa being envious of Arya and Dany being a power-hungry mad queen. The fact these ideas need debunking is just sad… I consider them deep misunderstandings of these main characters. I’m not even a #1 Dany fan. She’s not even on my top 5 favorite characters, I don’t think. But the irrational vitriol directed towards every one of her words and actions is just astounding to me, so both Petra and I felt the issue needed to be addressed. Even if it was a purely subjective issue, I wouldn’t apologize for giving my opinion. But it goes beyond that. It’s a malicious misinterpretation of a pretty basic story arc. I certainly won’t apologize for not respecting it as a valid interpretation.

      Luka Nieto,

      Well I don’t subscribe to the mad Queen theory either. Whether I agree or disagree with your opinion was not my point. I actually agreed with most of what you said. It was how you said it that got to me a little bit.

      When I disagree with someone about a character I don’t say “What the fuck are these people talking about”. To me, that’s antagonistic and you lose any point you’re trying to make when you act that way. I don’t think it’s ok for a regular poster here to act this way, let alone a mod. I would expect more from someone in that position. That type of attitude doesn’t do anything constructive to end a debate. It just fuels it.

      I’m not interested in an apology. I was merely giving my opinion. You gave yours, then I gave mine. We obviously don’t share the same opinion and that’s fine by me.

        Quote  Reply

    98. “Irrational vitriol” and “malicious misinterpretation” are pretty strong words to use against people who merely dislike a fictional character.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Mr Derp,

      I’m not a “mod” on this article. I’m a writer, and one part of a conversation. The idea here is a casual conversation between Petra and I. I will swear, I will be crass sometimes, perhaps even aggressive. So will she. It’s part of the dynamic, part of the format. It’s not for everyone, but it is what it is.

      Grandmaester Flash,

      They are pretty strong words for pretty strong feelings. Especially when they are so often tied to other things. Dany wouldn’t get half the criticisms of being entitled, power-hungry or unstable if she was a man, yet acted exactly the same way.

        Quote  Reply

    100. HelloThere:
      Why do we have to like or dislike Dany?
      Why is it that shes the only character people can’t sit down and have rational intelligent discussions on.
      I don’t care about liking or disliking her.I care about having interesting discussions about her decisions and motivations.

      I’ve always been more invested in the complexities of the story telling than in any character, because its all just fiction.

      It’s like Dany is the de facto Hillary Clinton of planetos. So many weird parallels. I think alot of it has to do with a strong ambitious woman seeking power, doing for the best of intentions, using the same tools of “war” as many men before her used. But she is judged completely differently for it.

        Quote  Reply

    101. Luka Nieto:
      Grandmaester Flash,
      They are pretty strong words for pretty strong feelings. Especially when they are so often tied to other things. Dany wouldn’t get half the criticisms of being entitled, power-hungry or unstable if she was a man, yet acted exactly the same way.

      Yes, I often see this old chestnut rolled out. What grounds do you have for making this assertion? I can assure you my reasons for disliking this character have nothing whatsoever to do with gender.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Kay: Careful there! Hahaha….. 😀
      When “the North” finds out that “the bastard from the Wall” is actually from the South, and is the grandson of the Mad King who burned Lord Stark and his son, and is now friendly with the MK’s daughter, I hope they don’t unite against him. They weren’t all that happy with the idea of him traveling south in the first place.

      Hmm, I really hate when people think where a person is born (but not raised), or who the biological parents (or father) are is more important than who actually raised the child is… why even bother with adoption? I guess every foreign born baby adopted and raised outside their birth country is still responsible and influenced so heavily by their birth nation that they should never be considered ‘true’ citizens… oh and don’t forget those babies born to military family’s overseas – guess their not real citizens either… who raised them makes no difference… seriously?

      Oh and Lord Stark and his son… they are also Jon grandfather and uncle… who Jon’s bio-father was, doesn’t negate who his bio-MOTHER was… sheesh

      There is a reason GRRM patterned Jon Snow to look the most Stark of all the Stark children.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Luka Nieto,

      I think the main source of… differing interpretations, to put it that way, is the fact that a lot of people frame the discussion surrounding Daenerys and her story arc around wrong questions: Is she the Mad Queen or isn’t she? Will she embrace the viler Targaryen impulses personified by her father or rise above them?

      The real dilemma that’s always been intrinsic to Daenerys’s character is actually: Is she a ruler or a conquerer? Does she have what it takes to go one (or two or three) steps beyond Fire and Blood and truly deliver on the promise of a more just and worthy world?

      As for my answer to this question… It’s not so simple. When all is said and done, and for all the good she’s done (primarily freeing millions of slaves in the Sla… excuse me, Bay of Dragons), her actual rule was riddled with problems and wishy-washy political maneuvering, at times trying to compromise and appease, then resorting to more decisive measures. I don’t see this as a weakness in writing (as many do), but as a clear and deliberately placed sign that Daenerys is torn between her two personas.

      She seems to be undergoing a kind of character examination similar to Robert Baratheon: Does a good warrior make a good king? Where the answer to Robert’s rule is a clear and loud no, I think the same question posed to Daenerys will yield a more nuanced answer. Frankly, I don’t think either the books or the show are interested in supplying the same answer twice so, using both basic narrative understanding and meta knowledge, I believe we can safely rule out the possibility that Daenerys will turn into yet another in a long and depressing list of failed rulers. On the other hand, it doesn’t quite ring true to me that Daenerys will in the end be both the conqueror and the ruler Westeros needs and deserves. Maybe I am a bit jaded, but that sounds almost too sweet and pat and gift-wrapped with a nice little red tie.

      My interpretation — which, it goes without saying, is only my own subjective analysis that may be proved wrong — is that Daenerys, in order to usher in a new world, must in a sense destroy the old (break the wheel…). Ultimately, she is and always has been a conqueror, born and bred for burning, reshaping, and creating worlds but not for sitting down to engage in finer points of taxation.

      The willingness to upend the status quo is what makes Daenerys fundamentally different from Robert. He came into his crown without the slightest clue what to do with it. The existing power structures, slowly decaying through the centuries of Targaryen rule, were left pretty much untouched, free to spin their webs much as they have always done. Daenerys may not be a (great) ruler — I think there is a very good chance she dies near the end — but she is neither a simple conqueror. She’s a leader, dreamer, blessed lunatic (five internet cookies to those who get the reference!) who will help bring about the dawn, figuratively and literally.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Mr Fixit,

      Really good points. Robert never really wanted the crown, Ned could have taken it. Robert was fighting for Lyanna, Ned for his family. Just turned out the way it turned out.

      Dany wants her birthright….but she hasn’t proven that adept at ruling in any of the places she has resided in.

      I wonder if we will get the chance to see if Cersei is any good at ruling (in more depth).

        Quote  Reply

    105. Luka Nieto,

      Can I just say that people had similar reactions to Stannis and he had a penis. Some people are capable of seeing past race and gender when evaluating the essence, personality and deeds of an individual.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Markus Stark,

      I agree with this assessment of Dany. I also fall into the the camp that does not see her as a hero. I do think she will go mad queen. I gave her some leeway at first. I mean come on, guy you don’t know showing up saying hey, let’s fight these ice zombies. No matter how hot he is, that’s just too far out there, but now she has seen some evidence of it and now apparently considers Jon to be a reasonable man (she is asking his advice) and still is all “bend the knee, I’m entitled”. Jon is not going to back someone he doesn’t know and he doesn’t know Dany.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Grandmaester Flash,

      They are pretty strong words for pretty strong feelings. Especially when they are so often tied to other things. Dany wouldn’t get half the criticisms of being entitled, power-hungry or unstable if she was a man, yet acted exactly the same way.

      Criticism of the act of conquest is the same whether the conquer is male or female. We should question the motivation to conquer other people whether it’s Aegon or Daenarys. And since dragons represent WMD in that universe, we as an audience should feel uneasy with the overwhelming destruction they wrought. It’s unsurprising to feel conflicted between Dany and her dragons versus the other characters of Westeros after watching them for so many years. Those feelings would be just as intense if she were male. The story was designed to generate that internal conflict.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Hodors Bastard: Stop with the B5 references…you’ll attract Wimsey.

      Wimsey needs some attracting. He seems to have fallen through a jumpgate and became lost in hyperspace. And we all know what shadowy stuff lurks in that godsforsaken place.

        Quote  Reply

    109. I agree on Danaerys regarding her conflict with Tyrion. She gave him complete control to plan their Westeros strategy and it has totally failed. OF COURSE she’s angry and ready to take matters into her own hands.

      I did not like the ‘sad Tyrion overlooking the battlefield’ scene. If the main Lannister army had still been at Casterly Rock when the Unsullied arrived there would have been a big battle with great loss of life and Tyrion was perfectly willing to accept those deaths as part of his plan. But when Dany takes action against the forces that destroyed her ally then we get Tyrion suddenly realising the devastation of war.

        Quote  Reply

    110. I’ve freeze-framed the scenes in the episode and I really think it’s a huge stretch to think it’s some kind of Catelyn Easter Egg. There are a lot of extras who pass by during those courtyard scenes, men, women, even some younger women. The one in question has peasant garb on (looks like she has an apron) and she has really long frizzy/bushy hair. Doesn’t look like Catelyn at all if you look at how she wore her hair most of the time and how she dressed (which while simple was also elegant and clearly ‘noble’ attire)

      I think some fans may be such Jon backers now that they view Dany as a rival team leader who is obstructing HIS quest. They forget that Dany has her own quest, & Jon has shown no tangible proof that the army of the dead really are coming to kill them all, and that it’s an urgent threat that she needs to address right now. He hasn’t offered anything for her to drop her mission, and yet wants her to risk her dragons and armies for his cause. Still, we as viewers have seen what he’s seen, we know the WW are the bigger doom, so it can rankle that Dany’s not there yet. But we need to remember she *hasn’t* seen what he’s seen and she doesn’t know what kind of a man Jon is. She will get there eventually, I think.

      Despite the occasional play up of Danaerys being Mad Aerys’ daughter who might go insane, I do think the show has shown far more evidence that Mad Cersei is the closer analogue.

      It’s sad that there are fans who really seem to want Jon to be unequivocally good and Danaerys to be unequivocally evil, just so that they become enemies and for Jon to defeat her. The show seems to be clearly heading towards the two of them becoming firm allies instead, co-leaders and this is just that initial period of getting to know each other and ironing out issues. We viewers still keep focusing on who deserves the Iron Throne prize more than the rest, arguing over who should come out top dog, while the story seems to be moving in a different direction.

      Have you noticed that this is the first time Danaerys has someone she can treat as an equal, not a vassal? Even Tyrion is technically her subject. She wants Jon to bend the knee, yes, because oaths still mean something to her and she’s been betrayed in the past by people she trusted. And yet…she seems to be warming up to the idea of Jon being a fellow ruler, a peer. This is huge for Dany, who has had to assert her dominance, her strength, her right to be free and to make her own choices, heck even exist, due to others constantly wanting to kill, rape, subjugate, destroy and control her.

      I think they are having Dany & Jon be so stubborn about the bending the knee thing (for good reasons on both sides), so that we can understand how important the shift is when either Dany or Jon eventually changes her/his mind. I’m pretty sure that’s coming at some point, don’t you?

        Quote  Reply

    111. Markus Stark,

      I feel like, at this point, placing pride/power/politics over humanitarian need is a criticism that applies to both Daenerys and Jon. Neither are willing to compromise their positions for the sake of an alliance.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Rph2004,

      “she has seen some evidence of it and now apparently considers Jon to be a reasonable man (she is asking his advice) and still is all “bend the knee,”

      Hmm….Do you think perhaps the reason Daeny insists on Jon bending the knee is because to do otherwise amounts to her recognition of northern sovereignty?

      Why does Jon care what the northern houses think anyway?

      Jon more than anyone knows exactly what is coming for the north and the rest of westoros. He knows they’re all on death watch. It shouldn’t matter to him if bending the knee pisses them off, because to not do so seals their fate.

      It doesn’t matter if the north won’t follow a southern queen as Jon puts it. WW are marching, the north will follow whomever brings dragons to a white walker fight. Jon’s choice to bend the knee to the targaryen queen will be vindicated. Again, Jon should know this….but, you know, drama 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    113. Tron79,

      I firmly believe that what sets great fiction apart is the ability to connect to some aspect of real life. I hadn’t thought much about that particular shot until you mentioned it. Thanks for the insight (and the tears)

        Quote  Reply

    114. Mr Fixit,

      Perfection!

      D&D have said Dany isn’t the Mad Queen, and I believe they might know what they’re talking about. They’ve also said that Season 6 is where she’s coming into her Targaryen nature, which I interpret as Fire and Blood, waking the dragon within. Jack Bender said that we should be aroused by Khaleesi’s bloodrider speech and a little horrified: she’s not Hitler, but she’s got the power. A dragon makes for a great conqueror but perhaps not a great ruler.

      I see fire as heart-above-head (fiery passion) and ice as head-above-heart (ice-cold logic). Being so left-brained, I feel more kindred with the icy nature of the Starks. But I think George’s point will be that a balance between ice and fire would make for the very best of rulers, that a good ruler needs both to rule with mind and heart. A good ruler would be the perfect song of ice and fire, both head and heart in equal measure to rule logically and with compassion.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Red Viper,
      A lot of viewers seem to have difficulty accepting that sometimes a character may not be completely in control of their behavior, sometimes they’re overwhelmed by factors beyond them. Makes me question their empathy for people in real life

        Quote  Reply

    116. Just wanted to say that was a great read between the two of you. I totally agree with a lot of the points that both of you made like the stuff about Dickon. Because of this episode I’m always going to chuckle whenever I hear or read that name. As a Dany fan it was nice to see/read you guys defending her actions. Looking forward to reading about this week’s episode.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Luka Nieto:
      Mr Derp,

      I’m not a “mod” on this article. I’m a writer, and one part of a conversation. The idea here is a casual conversation between Petra and I. I will swear, I will be crass sometimes, perhaps even aggressive. So will she. It’s part of the dynamic, part of the format. It’s not for everyone, but it is what it is.

      Its good that you and Petra have your differences and disagreements. Its what makes the Glass Candle Dialogues such an enjoyable read. It just wouldn’t be the same if you both always agreed with each other 😉

      BTW, I like Dany and never had a problem with her character.

        Quote  Reply

    118. HelloThere:
      Kay,

      The posters here very rarely go into the kind of vitriol I see in other areas
      mostly Youtube comments section, but youtube comments are usually the worst of humanity besides 4chan.
      Installed a chrome blocker of youtube comments, and everything feels so much better

      It’s a TV show. It would be ridiculous to get that worked up over it. On a side note, my guess is there’s a reason we didn’t see Cersi kill Ellaria Sand ( she locked her up alive instead of killing her outright) or Yara Greyjoy. My guess is that they reappear in future episodes or seasons, get freed and try to take back their homes with Danys.

        Quote  Reply

    119. First time visiting and I have to say I enjoyed the discussion quite a bit and agree with most of what was said. Particularly the interactions between Arya and Sansa. Something that just dawned on me during this past episode is how all the remaining Starks, Jon included, actually fulfilled their childhood dreams in a sort of twisted way.

      Jon wanted to do something meaningful with his life, with a strong sense of honor and need to protect others while performing heroic acts while following the steps of his uncle. It was this need for heroism what initially convinced him to join the Night’s Watch. Which is why once he found out the truth he was so disappointed to see that the Watch was the home of mostly criminals and other men with nothing else in the world, and with no grand dreams nor desire for heroics, and little interest in protecting anyone beyond each other. That’s why he hated not becoming a ranger, thinking he’d spend a life as a glorified servant at Castle Black. When he was complaining to Tyrion it seemed that he had given up hope of his life ever amounting to anything. Fast forward to the present and he has arguably become the most honorable character left in the series (Brienne being the only one who could top him on this), not to mention that he has become the one character with the most heroic adventures up to now and one of the two most important people in the world of GOT.

      Sansa always wanted to be the Lady of her castle, looking after her loved ones and occupied with all the day to day mundane things and traditions of a Noble House. While hers is the one outcome that looks farthest from her dream, she still ended up basically taking over the role her mother had at Winterfell.

      Bran never cared about being a Lord and showed very little interest in the things required of them, showing instead more interest in the histories about mythical and magical beings, not to mention that even as a kid he was the one who was always trying to see as far as he could by climbing the tower in Winterfell. Well, as it happens he is now the Three-eyed-raven, a mythical being capable of knowing the history of everything and able to see as far as he wants regardless of time or distance.

      Finally Arya, she never wanted the life of a Lady, instead preferring the tasks or life of a warrior capable of defending herself and her loved ones from anyone. Now she is a trained assassin and an extremely capable fighter.

      It was hell for them to get to where they all are now, but at the same time it is extremely rewarding that each actually has ended up right where they wanted to be when things started.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Solomon,

      Welcome! This is an excellent analysis of all the surviving Stark children and their journeys over the course of this series. After scattering all across the world, they’ve all returned home having fulfilled the destiny that they once envisioned for themselves. But not in the way that any of them expected, and only after tremendous loss and great personal cost.

        Quote  Reply

    121. HelloThere:
      Kay,

      The posters here very rarely go into the kind of vitriol I see in other areas
      mostly Youtube comments section, but youtube comments are usually the worst of humanity besides 4chan.
      Installed a chrome blocker of youtube comments, and everything feels so much better

      Good to know. I am not that much into GoT fandom, and I don’t go anywhere else. When I first started watching, I used to visit westeros.org from time to time to catch up on the story (not being a book reader). I well remember the vitriol there against the show and also against certain characters (Daenerys included among them). Haven’t been back there in a long while. If it’s much better here than elsewhere, then it’s an awesome thing I don’t spend any time anywhere else. 😀 I am spending less time here this season than in previous seasons, in any case. Also, looking forward to the end of the series.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Mr Fixit: My interpretation — which, it goes without saying, is only my own subjective analysis that may be proved wrong — is that Daenerys, in order to usher in a new world, must in a sense destroy the old (break the wheel…). Ultimately, she is and always has been a conqueror, born and bred for burning, reshaping, and creating worlds but not for sitting down to engage in finer points of taxation.

      Wonderful and intelligent analysis of Daenerys – quite rare to see in the GoT fandom! Your entire post, with the comparison to Robert, was very interesting. I fully agree that she is a conqueror, not a ruler, and in fact I venture to say that in the end, she will not rule. There will be no Iron Throne. Her role is to “break the wheel”, and as you put it so well, to burn the old and reshape into something better. To destroy the old in order to shape the future, will mean loss of life and destruction, and this is what often ends up translated as the Mad Queen.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Petra,

      I don’t know about this bending the knee thing. I fear that the North would impeach Jon (if they have such a procedure) and install a nationalist “Make the North Great Again” candidate in his place.

      Everybody was whining when he said he had to take the risk and go south. (Even Baby Bear, the charter member of his fan club, was upset: “We need the King in the North in the North!”) They all warned him that bad sh*t happens when northerners go south at the invitation of Targs or Lannisters.

      Is it realistic for Jon to “bend the knee” and expect everyone in the North to be cool with it? The only way I could see that working out is if she returns with him accompanied by 3 dragons, 100,000 Dothrakis and a “loot train” full of Dragonglass and food … and heads straight to the front lines to take on the Army of the Dead.

      Further, despite her recent victory, she’s coming off a string of defeats in which three of her major allies (Dorne, the Tyrells, and the Cockless Coward branch of the Greyjoys) were annihilated or neutralized; for now, it appears the Unsullied are stranded with no ride home. So it’s not as if he can be sure she will be the next Queen of any of the seven kingdoms any time soon.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Also… Wasn’t it Stannis who recognized that he should save the kingdom to sit the Iron Throne rather than sit the Iron Throne to save the kingdom, or something like that ?

      Dany ought to do what Stannis did: head North to protect the realm against an invasion, and then worry about being recognized as a monarch.

        Quote  Reply

    125. GhostCR,

      Excellent argument. On another note… It’s not obvious that English isn’t your first language. As I’ve told a few other non-native speakers/writers on this forum, your English is better than that of 99% of native speakers on Facebook.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Mr Derp: Elizabethe,

      I’m glad Im not the only one who got that impression.I generally enjoy the Glass Candle Dialogues, but some of this one felt more antagonistic than previous ones.

      I got a similar impression as both of you this go round, however in the end I suppose we all just have different ways of stating our opinions, with a platform for the little digs that make us feel more ‘right’ than the rest of the rabble. We’re all peasants in the grand scheme. 😊

      Of course I’m also one of those lunatics who likes both books and show, and my metronome regarding Dany and Jon doesn’t tend to swing wildly one way or the other. I’m solidly Team Sandor (…don’t fuck up on me now, Sandy).

        Quote  Reply

    127. Mr Fixit,

      LMAOOO at both of you!!!

      Thank you for reminding me, once again, of why I’ve spent far, far more time here in the last year than on any other site. Especially since November 8.

      But that’s enough about the Mangled Apricot Hellbeast.

      When I have the energy (maybe on Saturday, after my workweek, when I finally get some REM sleep), I’ll write a post about Bran, catatonia, and the parallels I see between him, Jon, LSH, and Beric.

      Luka and Petra, thank you, so, so much for another wonderful Thursday installment. (I disagree with you about Sansa and Arya, but that doesn’t diminish my enjoyment of Glass Candle in any way, shape or form.)

        Quote  Reply

    128. Jon went against the advice of his bannermen and went South to save his people. Yet the same Jon doesn’t want to bend the knee to save the same people because it would be going against those same bannermen. Sounds stupid if you ask me.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Luka Nieto:
      Markus Stark,

      To be fair, I doubt the dozen wagons she burnt down at most had much of the Reach harvest in them. Unless they were TARDISes.

      I hope they will adress this issue the next episode; I understand she was trying to create a field of fire to traop the Reach and westerlands forces, but it seems unrealistic that all we saw being burned was the whole harvest. Jaime even asked Bronn to bully the smallfolk from the lands into giving them their food and Tarly blabbed about how they would grant all the grains of the Reach to Queen Cersei…

        Quote  Reply

    130. I will agree on the matter of Dany and Dragons – we expected her to use them and hey that’s what they do, they burn stuff!!!

      I disagree on the matter of Jon bending the knee – without saying that Dany is wrong to ask it: they are both right considering each one’s position and view of things. Dany is going for the I.T. and naturally she wants the loyalty of whatever allies she gets – and the way to prove loyalty is bending the knee.

      On the other hand Jon was named King in the North, after the Southern Kings messed up their extended home, the north, and also King for the wildings which put their faith in him. He can’t just let all these people down making such a decision just because someone he doesn’t know asks him to! The show is right to take things slow on this subject, and let it unfold as it will – I believe that Jon will eventually bend the knee but only after Dany proves worthy of his loyalty in relation to the good of the people in the North, because that’s what’s important to Jon.

      On another matter, that I’m happy you brought up here, Bran and his changed outlook. We need to keep in mind that the 3 eyed raven MUST be emotionless in order to do right by his job. It was Bran’s sensibilities and emotions that resulted in the destruction of the Cave and the death of the Raven, the Children, Hodor, Summer etc. So, seeing him reach a state of controlled emotion, is actually good news, he starts to become like the previous 3 eyed raven, he’s starting to understand how this job works. You can’t let emotion get in the middle of that: it’s far too important. You can’t look the past through emotion, but see it for what it is. This is the only way to harness his greenseer abilities and all the more his controlling of beasts and people’s minds.

      Yes, Meera deserved better – and in a way she was right saying that Bran died in that cave, but in the sense of the Bran she knew before. Bran is not who he was before: he’s the all seeing 3 eyed raven, his worldview, his perspective and priorities have completely changed; his gift comes with the responsibility for the fate of the living world and the burden of knowing things that one might prefer not to know.
      So, I’m personally glad to see Bran taking up his role with the graveness and soberness he must. This job is not a game.

      Lastly, about the Dany and Jon relationship, I think it’s build up beautifully, step by step as it should! I do hope that there will be romance between them – the chemistry between them is wonderful to see. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    131. So, in your hatred for Dany that you so proudly admit,

      This wasn’t directed at me but I just have to say that I do not for the life of me understand the mindset of those that seem to take some kind of personal offense, or why they feel the need to come to the rescue of a TV character in such a way as if they have to defend said character from any negativity, at the expense of marginalizing the real human beings they are interacting with. Much of it is subjective. We aren’t discussing Mother Theresa here lol.

        Quote  Reply

    132. I find disturbing how every single character that was in Bran’s company was obviously there as just a means to guarantee his survival/purpose. At least Meera got out of it alive.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Night Knight,

      Not really, not stupid at all. Jon, being a military commander, knows that he needs his troops together in order to face the invading threat. That’s why he pardoned Ned Umber and Alys Karkstark, he gets that all of the North must stand together to have any type of chance. He also knows the North will most likely revolt against him if he turns the North to a southerner, worse a Targaryen. The daughter of the man who tortured and murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark, the sister of the man who “kidnapped and raped” Lyanna Stark. I’m afraid that Jon is right, the North would abandon him and in doing so they would abandon any chance of a prepared battle plan against the walkers. As I said before, Daenerys should let him leave so he can go before his people, before his family, and explain the situation. Bran’s voice may be crucial here. But Jon can’t and shouldn’t make a unilateral decision here.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Danny,

      Agreed. Complicated situation that one. Hes done next to everything to convince her. But I believe people are underestimating Cercei and to underestimate an opponent is a very dangerous thing. If Danny turns her armies North theres a possibility all of them could be caught in the middle with Cercei attacking from the South (she doesn’t believe nor care about the white walkers.) and the Night King attacking from the North. That would be a very sticky situation to be caught in.

        Quote  Reply

    135. The solution to Jon and Dany is very simple and obvious, alliance by marriage. The same happened with Dorne, it couldn’t be conquered so it was annexed by marriage.

      Only problem is when Jon sees Bran:

      Bran: “you know bro.. you’re banging your auntie, good thing she can’t have kids”

        Quote  Reply

    136. O_o,

      I know there are many hardcore Jonerys shippers, and I know that there are the ones like you, who think this is the most practical solution, marriage alliance. But I don’t think Jon will be okay with a marriage/relationship with his own aunt. I can’t deny that there is obvious chemistry and the show runners want us to see that they are attracted and impressed with one another. But my HOPE is that that this is an attraction that will stay unconsummated due to circumstances, and will be stopped in it’s tracks with Bran revealing the truth to Jon BEFORE he has too much reason to feel he’s done something icky. Maybe that will be the bittersweet, that he can’t be with the woman he loves.

        Quote  Reply

    137. ginny,

      Well they can marry and pretend just for the alliance to work. They don’t have to consummate anything, no one will know, Dany can’t have kids anyway.

      And I think you were right to point out that Jon will no be okay with the relationship. Because for all we know Dany may not even care about that, she’s Targ after all, and grew up thinking she would marry her brother.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Goldeneye:
      HelloThere,

      Especially since there are no trains invented in planetos

      Trains existed long before the locomotives and carriages you are referring to. Trains were named for caravans not the other way round.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Markus Stark: I’m not though. I’m not “interpreting anything”. She said “I will fight for the North when you bend the knee”.

      That means what it means. She’s clearly stating that unless Jon bends the knee, she won’t be going North.

      The reality of that statement is that thousands will die, and she’ll have to fight off the WW anyway when they come south.

      It also means she isn’t making the survival of her people a priority. The priority for her is being recognized as Queen.

      There is no other way to “interpret” what she said.

      Saving people even if they refuse to bend the knee would be the right thing to do, and so far, she hasn’t agreed to do that.

      If Robb Stark had of understood necessity of vows hey “MAY” not of perished at all.

      To stand defiant is being defiant and it also allows those with more unscrupulous tendencies to flourish and generally fk it up big time.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Was it just me who noticed Dany kind of propose to Jon?

      I understand warden of the north was referred to in the Dragonstone throne room however, in the Cave Scene Dany changed to KitN and forming an alliance between a Queen and a King.

      Rewatch it ^^

        Quote  Reply

    141. Actually that’s a good point. Jon defied the Northern lords to answer Dany’s invitation because he felt it was the right thing to do. And yet he balks at bending the knee, even though it might be the right thing to do to get Dany and her armies and dragons to fight for him.

        Quote  Reply

    142. ygritte,

      Thank you, ygritte. What I find particularly unpleasant is the way some people seem unable to respond to what an individual poster has said. Instead they attribute every negative comment they have ever read to that poster. Misquoting people and putting words into their mouths is dishonest.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Succubint,

      That all sounds great on paper, but it’s very naive to assume that that’s all he needs to do to sway Dany to his cause, at this point in time. From the perspective of Jon, a character who still doesn’t know her that well and who understands that she isn’t about to drop everything for his war, what’s to stop Dany from ordering him to pledge his army to her war on Cersei and march them south the minute he bends the knee and submits to her? Which is precisely what Stannis was about to order Mance to do with the wildlings once he bent the knee? Nothing. She said she would fight for him, but at no point did she specify when, or say that she would make the WW her top priority. Words are wind, and until Jon knows for sure that he can count on her to come through on her promises, he’s absolutely right to hang on to the very title that gives him the agency to continue preparing for his war instead of getting pulled into hers. Giving it up now, without any assurance beyond the word of someone he barely knows and who is still fully committed to a different war, would actually be the stupid act. They’re both coming from an understandable place here, and until Dany’s priorities actually shift, the impasse is what makes the most sense for both characters.

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *