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Tonight, a podcast records part two of thoughts and feelings set in motion following “Blood of My Blood”. Leading into next week, there are things that must be discussed.
After the cut you’ll find three questions we’ve asked ourselves, and will be disputing as the show records.
Listen to “Blood of My Blood” here.
What do you believe?
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
That’s it. Let us know what and why in the comments below! Make sure to listen for your thoughts, theories, and input once this episode is released.
Hold the door
1. They still need to overthrow the Lannisters; the HS knows that as long as Cersei is still around that the faith will have opposition and she is the only person besides Margery and himself that could sway Tommen. I think Cersei uses the Mountain and Qyburn to do some damage to the sparrows….I don’t think Kevan is with her as he wants Loras safe….not sure who else she can ally herself with.
2. Bran has to communicate his visions to someone, especially TOJ, otherwise what’s the point? If he can sway the past, not sure he will himself but maybe through others like Jon and Dany. He will use Benjen as well, not sure in what capacity.
3. I don’t think she will, I think they are setting that up now but she will either die or go in a different direction; be the best of the mad king/Robert B/Joffrey etc. Encompass all the qualities that Tywin told Tommen about in season 4.
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
Margaery will continue to convince the Faith that she has “converted”, since she is also trying to get Loras out of prison. Now that Jaime is gone, Cersei will go full annihilation mode. I suspect that’s why she insisted so much on letting him leave. The High Sparrow wants the Lannisters to be taken down.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
He will have to communicate his visions from the ToJ and the WW publicly, otherwise it’s just bad storytelling to keep them a secret. I don’t know if he will mess with the past, but he will try and point characters in a certain direction to accomplish what he has seen in the future.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
She’s flying and burning people to the Captain America soundtrack, so obviously she won’t be mad imo. The show wants you to think she could be (if you’re not a casual, I guess), but it won’t happen.
My question is : What will Tommen do to Margaery once he finds out she really hasn’t converted?
Longfinger,
Nothing I think….he is being led by his ****……I think Cersei will try and exploit the fact that Margary is full of crap. That might be the best way for her to overthrow the Tyrells and once they are gone…the sparrows lose the Tyrell army….
1. I think the only real opposition the High Sparrow has left in KL is Cersei. Tommen is fully under the manipulation of both HS and Margaery. Marg herself is not really as devout as she seems, but she sees that the way for her to get as much power as possible is to side with the HS, manipulate Tommen, and take the role of a “Holy Queen” in the eyes of the people. Olenna (and Mace) on the other hand might not be as happy with this, but they will go with Marg’s plan. Cersei however… She seemed calm after what happened last episode, so there could be some trick up her sleeve. Or she will just choose violence and let the Mountain loose.
2. Well, the Mad King theory is a possibility, but I expect that Bran has learned that he can’t change the past – whatever he will try to change will only end up being just as it is, only it will be resulted by him. I think he understands that. We will obviously see the rest of the ToJ later on the season, and then there is the speculation around the Night King’s mark on his hand, but outside of that I have no idea what will he do the rest of the season.
3. I think she will keep walking the fine line between being a hero or being a tyrant. Which one will she end up being, or somehow both, I think is speculation for seasons 7 and 8.
I don’t see Dany being the mad queen, in fact if she doesn’t die sacrificing herself to save westeros from the white walkers I think she wins the throne with her womb quickened with child from her northern nephew. Besides since when has being a conqueror in fantasy become the equivalent of madness, was Aegon the conqueror mad? We can debate the good and evil of power but wielding power is NOT mad
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
I think Cersei is in big trouble, but she does have FrankenGregor to help her get through some mistakes, but probably not all of them. I don’t think Margaery is done for yet. Jamie’s scenario is going to play out like the book with him & the Blackfish meeting at Riverrun and the Freys having Edmure in a gallows. Will the Blackfish leave Riverrun or not?
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I think Hodor is a one time thing, and I think the viewers will end up knowing R+L=J, but only a select few will end up knowing it on the show.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
I think she’ll start down that path, but some wise heads will rein her in (a returning Jorah, Tyrion, Sam Tarly, Jon Snow?)
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
Margaery will continue to obtain as much power as possible. I think she might try to take down the HS by using the common people against him. She will try to become more loved by the people. Then use them to get rid of him. Maybe?
Cersei will find out about Tommen and go ballistic. Then “I choose violence.” FrankenMountain kills a lot of Sparrows.
Sorry for the next part:
You can take moment after to collect yourself.
Okay, I want Cleganebowl like everybody else. What happens when FrankenMountain kills the Sparrows and Tommen finds out? He is converted now. Won’t he remove the FrankenMountain from the Kingsguard like he did Jaime? Which means Cersei can’t use him for a Trial by Combat and she is tried by the Seven instead. Oh god what did I just write?
Cleganebowl will happen. It will happen. Pray to the Old Gods, New Gods, EuronDrowned God, the Many Faced God, and the Lord of Light.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I think it means he has lot left to learn. If he is going to change anything, it will already be predestined. There will be no choice. Otherwise, I hope not. I think he has learned his lesson. Observe and listen in the visions.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
I think Dany will always struggle with the possibility of going completely mad. It is part of her story arc and I don’t think that will change in the future. The point is that she is bracing her identity of a Targaryen but she will make changes. She will conquer using Fire and Blood. No question because it is war. The difference will be the aftermath and will be like Aegon the Conqueror. He used dragons to conquer but was able to make peace with the Houses of Westeros. Tyrion and Varys will help inform her about this history. They also will help her make the same type of peace when the war is over. I think she will go in that direction.
I could be incorrect. She could go completely mad and burn everything to the ground. Then, feed the survivors to her dragons. I don’t know. I hope that is not the case.
1. Tommen won’t be King for long, I thought from the first moment. This might be the start of his downfall. Cersei is extremely vengeful and should destroy the High Sparrow, so she can be her fierce self again. It could be Margaery tricked Tommen into this. When he dies in that scenario, Cersei will kill her, or have her killed.
2. I think Bran will learn to control his visions as the new raven.
3. No, I don’t think Dany will be the Mad Queen. I mean, she won’t be more mad than the rest of them. All main characters are mad in one way or the other. They all have mental issues. I wrote a bit more in the other topic about her speech.
1. The creation of a new order seems to be High Sparrow’s endgame, it seems like some sort of a peasant rebellion encouraged by religious fanatics. He reminds me a bit of Thomas Muntzer who was a prominent figure in the German Peasant’s War, he like the High Sparrow was a religious figure who tried to improve the social position of the people. Unlike the HS he didn’t influence nor was close to any important monarch of the day.
Now when it comes to Cersei, I do think that she has become a rather reckless if not awful player in this game. Her children are her weakness so I do fully expect her to try and increase her influence on Tommen only to be outmaneuvred by Olenna,Marge and the HS in the process. Last time she felt her power over her son to lessen she armed the Faith Militant so I do expect her to succumb to another catastrophic mistake, perhaps take a note from the Mad King’s book and use the pyromancers and/or the Mountain to unleash chaos in the city? Jaime acted as a mediator between the two of them so with him gone well things will go downhil fast and if Dany is set to arrive to Westeros next season I do expect her to find King’s Landing in ruins.
2. Maybe the Three Eyed Raven tried to give Bran all the information he will need in order to defeat the White Walkers along with a warning as to how meddling with the past can make things worse. Bran was unaware of the majority of the events pictured in these visions, especially Dany and her dragons, wildfire, the battle of Hardhome ,etc. Now I do fully believe that the segment of Aerys screaming “Burn them all” has to do more with the potential use of wildfire as a weapon against the White Walkers than anything else. That alongside with the probability of the Three Eyed Raven trying to warn Aerys about the upcoming danger that the realms of men will eventually face.
3. Dany hasn’t shown any signs of being a sociopath or being mentaly unstable so I do personaly find it quite improbable for her to turn out this way. If that was the case then the showrunners would have given us strong hints, and no looking overconfident whilst facing rapists and plunderers does not count as such. People seem to forget that she suffered a lot, she was abused by her brother throughout her whole life, sold to a warlord in exchange for an army, being raped , these things tend to have a huge impact on a person. One could attibute the frequent motivational speeches and her smugness to her being insecure of losing everything and becoming a helpless child again left in the mercy of cruel people. But despite all this she empathizes with people who have suffered , the slaves at Slavers Bay , the young dosh khaleen more resently and tries to do right by them. Mind you she is definitely not perfect, then again how could she be ,she never received any formal education from a tutor in contrast to the majority of the other characters so she is bound to make mistakes but that doesn’t mean she is or will be crazy.
In medieval England queens who tried to assert themselves in a position of power and perhaps even rule were usually called She Wolves by their enemies, whilst being described as vampires and madwomen. Will it be too much to assume that Dany strikes some similar cords mainly due to the fact that she commands armies and wants to conquer by brute force instead via indirect political maneuvres?
Dany as the Mad Queen, not in this larger song of ice and fire storyline, but there may be hints of its possibility in the far future placed here and there thru the remaining story by GRRM. I imagine that Dany’s magical qualities could push anyone into an egomaniacal madness and it would so fit GRRM style to have a character start so good and even do good and great things and still devolve into a unlikable character.
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
She seems to have something up her sleeve, to judge by her calm demeanour and her apparent determination to get Jamie out of the firing line. Lots of violence, probably. Maybe that shot in Bran’s vision of a huge wildfire explosion beneath Kings Landing is a shot from Episode 9 or 10? (they like to reuse existing shots in those vision things, but those wildfire shots were new, and we know that Aerys didn’t actually set fire to the city so they weren’t from the past). I can see Cersei burning down the Sept with the HS and all the Faith Militant inside. It would be really tragic if she does so with Tommen (and Margaery?) also inside, having decided that the death of her son is inevitable (or perhaps because she doesn’t know that he’s there). Yep, that’s my crackpot prediction – Cersei will burn down the Sept and kill Tommen, just as the smug HS thinks he’s won.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I think the Hodor experience will make him reluctant to try, and besides, he will have his hands full dealing with the present. I don’t think the story will go too far down the rabbit hole of Bran shuffling the chess pieces of history around (which could get silly).
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
Depends what you mean by “Mad”. If you mean “psychotic”, as in hearing voices and so on, then no, I don’t think she will become the “Mad Queen”. If you mean Mad as in a raging invader with a horde of killers and fire-breathing dragons and perhaps in alliance with other killers like the mad women of Dorne and the Greyjoys, then yes, I think she will be a Mad Queen. Whether she comes back from that, I don’t know. She could go in one of two directions – become a villain, who Bran has to stop (fighting against Fire and Ice at the same time). Or she could see the error of her ways, realise that her destiny is not to conquer the world but to sacrifice herself (and her dragons) in fighting off the White Walkers. I kind of hope for the former, because the latter is so predictable that it’s what everyone has been predicting since Season 1. A plot twist would be nice, like Bran using the WW and Dragons against each other, as two weapons of mass destruction which can ultimately be used to destroy the other.
1. HS wants to put an end to the privileged, ruling class in KL. Despite all of his skilled maneuverings, he may underestimate Cersei’s wrath and desire for vengeance. I believe that mad Cersei will eventually get the best of the HS and probably cause the deaths of many in the process. She has “weapons” in Qyburn and the Mountain.
Tommen is a dead man walking…the indirect result of his mother’s madness. Margaery has not been converted but I’m not sure what her next move is. Everything in KL is going to blow-up soon. Olenna, Lancel and Loras need to watch their backs.
2. I don’t think that Bran has “changed” history. Whatever Bran has done is what happened. Bran needs to learn from these visions and experiences. He can influence the future by informing those in the present. How he does that is anyone’s guess.
3. Dany will not be the Mad Queen. (Cersei has that title wrapped up.) Dany will struggle with being a conqueror or a ruler. She will play a role in defeating the WWs and their army of the dead but, ultimately, she will never rule Westeros. Maybe she returns to Essos.
2. I think there are some things Bran CAN change – but it’s not the past now, it’s the future.
Those scenes of wildfire are a POTENTIAL future that Cersei is on. I think Bran changes that course once he sorts out that they need wildfire to stop the wights. Perhaps, even ironically, Jaime is his “hero,” who Bran sends to stop Cersei. I think she burns the Red Keep OR Baelor, but not all of King’s Landing, and the rest of the wildfire is found and used in the wars to come.
The one thing we need from Bran’s TOJ vision – who else is there, besides Howland Reed??? In all these years, I never believed that Rhaegar sent his Kingsguard away from him to protect the Prince – perhaps even the momentary king if Jon is legitimate – and had them just hanging outside the Tower of Joy while Lyanna labored and bled and birthed the prince alone. It doesn’t make any sense. I think there was someone else there with Lyanna, someone who couldn’t save her, but still. Maybe I’m entirely wrong and she’s just lying there in a pool of blood entirely alone while the Kingsguard are chilling outside, but I just can’t imagine that.
And that person has proof that Jon, somehow, is legitimate. All the Prince/King allusions for Jon are not for nothing.
Does Bran somehow change history in the TOJ vision? That would be the craziest….
3. I don’t know if the show will try to draw close parallels between Daenerys and the Mad King. I’m pretty sure that the people of Westeros will not welcome with open arms three dragons and a Targaryen who views the Seven Kingdoms as her personal property.
Hopefully, by the time Daenerys arrives in Westeros, several of our Westeros-based protagonists will have a good understanding of the threat posed by the White Walkers. A good understanding of the threat posed by dragons should come quickly. What I’d really like to see is characters we are heavily invested in forced to make tough decision about which is the greater evil. Which one to oppose. Which one to use against the other. And for us as audience members to be able to understand all sides of the argument.
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
I don’t know how Cersei will play once Jaime has left the city. For now, she is completely alone. She maybe has the Mountain but she can’t make a plan on her own, and it seems that she has no longer the support of her son and of the Tyrells. We saw that she will use violence but she can’t use it if she knows she will loose ; so there must be a defeat of the Faith somewhere. Or maybe, it will be Cersei’s end.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I think we will see the rest of the ToJ later too (ep.10). However, I don’t think Bran will interact with the past again : Aerys II was truly mad before Robert’s rebellion. Still that Jon has to learn about his true origins so there must be Stark’s reunion once more (for the next season). For sure, Bran will leave the north of the Wall at the end of the season. I remember that the three-eyed raven told him he will never walk again but he will fly : was it about “flying” through time and space ? or about the dragons ?
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
Nop. As I said, she is afraid of becoming the Mad Queen but it seems that she forgets it each time she unifies armies. This is why she is an interesting character. I think she is afraid to become like her father (when she talks to Ser Barristan, you can feel it) but in her actions, it seems that she loves what she’s doing (killing the masters, killing the khals …etc) even if there is a good reason. I really enjoy when she shows her humanity with the slaves for example, or when she cares a lot about her dragons, but there is always that fear that she could turn into a bad person. She can be a conqueror without being a horrible ruler but she has to prove it for the next episodes. Also, she is aware about her mistakes (when she killed the masters) so … all is not lost. Still we need to see her as a good ruler now because she already is a charismatic leader.
#1. I believe that Cersei is completely mistaken about the trial by combat. There will be some other type of reckoning for her which she will refuse to do. Instead, she will loose Ser Gregor on anyone and everyone which will result in several deaths, including Tommen’s.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
No, of course not. Cersei is clearly the one who is headed in that direction. She’s the character that most closely parallels the Mad King Aerys, while Daenerys is compared to Aegon the Conquerer, Rhaegar, and even Nymeria by the author himself. I have to believe that if her surname wasn’t Targaryen and her father wasn’t known as the Mad King, this wouldn’t even be a question.
She’s a conquerer who believes it is her duty and right to put House Targaryen back on the Iron Throne. Conquering does not equal madness. She is not privy to what’s going on North of the Wall, and why should she be? That would be boring storytelling; let her cause some a bit of chaos and destruction before realizing where her true destiny lies. This would help in making her a grayer character than just another conventional hero. But she definitely does not suffer from madness.
Great questions.
1)Margaery is playing the long game and will get info to Olenna, even in Unella’s presence. They’ll work with Cersei, who got Jaime out of the way (albeit in a good cause) to trap the HS. After Blackwater, she may know about the Wildfire and how to use it. Wouldn’t it be super if she uses Clegane-bowl to do this? But first, instead of book Varys, she’ll be the one to have her uncooperative uncle and her bete noir, Pycelle, offed.
2) Bran did not complete his three-eyed apprenticeship. He’ll try many things, and muck up several. He will gingerly try to influence the future, but once he learns about the baby, he’ll enlist Howland Reed to spread the news. And chances are it will be Bran who finally convinces feuding Westeros that the real threat is far north. And coming south.
3) Dany’s always been a bit extreme, but neither mad nor psychopathic. With Tyrion and Varys (and maybe Jorah and perhaps Arya?) she’ll have the advisors she needs to keep her and her armies on the path to Westeros and maybe victory. More important, she is Fire and most likely the other prince who was promised. She and Jon, the remaining Starks, and Westeros in general will decisively confront the true enemy. What I can’t fathom is how Dany’s relationship with the Lord of Light fanatics will play out.
What do I believe? Absolutely nothing.
I do have some thoughts, however!
1. The story seems to be about people being stuck in situations where they have to make alliances they otherwise would or could not have made. Cersei is probably going to be the case study in “failure” again: last year, the other main characters successfully killed inner children and saw new adults rise from the ashes; however, Cersei couldn’t, and bellyflopped because of it. I am betting that she does the same here: she will foolishly try to play this to her advantage over both the Tyrells and the HS, and make a right mess of everything. Other characters, such as Sansa, Jon, Daeny, Arya, etc., will succeed in the end because they will make the unsavory alliances, or persuade others to make them: but Cersei won’t.
2. Has Bran really changed history? He was present when the confluence of events locked Hodor into a single point of time. However, that was much more BR’s doing than Bran’s. Moreover, it didn’t change history: it maintained it.
At any rate, I do not think that Bran is going to summon the other 12 Doctors and spin Planetos into a Bubble Universe or anything. Ned is going into the Tower on his own: I somehow doubt that Bran’s ghostly voice is going to stop Ned from committing infanticide.
3. No. Daeny is very sane. Moreover, she is aware of the possibility of insanity. She will continue to be a liberator and a crusader. Her continued internal struggle will be doing this pragmatically vs. doing it instantly.
The only “Mad Queen” analog will be Cersei. However, Cersei’s not insane: she is the Dunning–Kruger archetype, and even somewhat worse because not only is she incapable of realizing how much smarter everyone else is than her, she is convinced that she actually is wiser than everyone else. (She probably read too much Tolkien as a girl….) The big issue that this will create is that Jaime is going to realize that he sacrificed honor 25 years earlier to prevent the ruination of his house and (maybe a little) to save a couple of million lives: only to set into motion the chain of events that led Cersei to do the same thing. Man, he’ll probably want to throttle her…..
The Daeny question we should be asking is: what will she do when/if she learns about the White Walkers origins? After all, who are the closest parallels to the White Walkers in the story? *Jeopardy music plays* Exactly! The Unsullied. 5 points to whichever house includes you. Daeny has, to paraphrase Hermione Granger, a “saving people thing.” (Actually, so does Jon Snow: funny, that.)
1. Tommen has been converted. (No he hasn’t but lets face it if he and Magaery had Facebook in Westros it would be a joint account )
2. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? Two separate books.
3. How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city? Cersei is going to BURN the faith with a little green liquid.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history? Who says he hasn’t been for a long time, If Benjens words hold true than Brans body hase been taken over by the Raven legacy and it has been controlling things for sometime.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen? No but neither will she sit the Iron Throne! Vision showed it was destroyed so my thought is she will help defeat the Others and then let someone else sit the throne and be content to live out her life in a little house with a red door. It would be bitter sweet to see her in the end give it all up everything she fought for and in the end come to find all she wants is peace for herself content she brought peace to the world.
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
ans: high sparrow is feeling pretty high right now …Margaery wants loras safe so she is cooking something …what she is trying to do is difficult to predict..High sparrow maybe after someone new which is not gonna end well for him …or for anyone for that matter …
cersei is basically losing it now ..She doesn’t have her son her …brother ……errrrr. …lover …. by her side ..and she won’t get her trail by combat .coz sparrow knows no one is beating that monster so he won’t risk it…and cersei will be asked to do as sparrow says …but instead she will choose violence and all he’ll breaks lose …tommen gets pretty mad at her …big argument ….I’ll stop here ..
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I don’t think he has changed history yet …and he won’t either coz past is already written and the ink is dry …but what he has learn enough to influence the future. .whatever he has learn will help defeat the walkers …
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
mad queen noo. ..I’m not really sure she will be the one to sit on the throne though ….I’m not even sure there will a throne in the end to sit on ….but she and her dragons will defeat the white walkers ..who are pretty much the primary threat …and I think the story ends with white walkers defeat and dany and Jon together will defeat them guided by bran ….
part of the reason y people think dany is gonna go mad king or villain is because of how the show is trying to show her as a ass kicking bad ass. …..by making her kill anyone bad ….giving big speeches …..and to be fair over hyping her …when she is a little grounded you see she is a really good person with really good heart .and loving and caring person …If they make her a little more humble …give her a little more humility well she will be better a lot better ,,,Jon is still better than her in terms of overall personality and who I prefer wanna see ruling ….but she isn’t mad queen or a villain she is a hero ….A true hero who will save westeros ..and by the way those drothrakis are only there to make the numbers up and die in the battle ..so those people aren’t going to rape and pillage under dany despite what she said from the top of the dragon ,,,..
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
“I choose violence,” Cersei says in one of the pre-season trailers. And she said it’s just her and Jamie against the world. She has already surrendered to the prophecy that whatever she does she will lose her third child. So as much as she loves him, he is no longer a concern. She will take out the HS and the Small Council. She may end up killing her own son? That will leave her in power alone on Iron Throne. The Tyrells will be sent home packing (or their heads rolling).
HS has the second trial and I think he knows he’s facing The Mountain. He will need to find his champion – The Broken Man!
Margaery still has her brother to let out. And grandma up her sleeve.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
“The ink is dry.” He will not change history, but I think he will learn how to defeat the Night’s King from seeing it. He is the Three Eyed Raven. Maybe he will learn to wield fire and BringLight. Bring people back from the dead. Maybe he will learn to speak through the flames and scare little eunuchs.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
No, not like her father. But maybe more like Bloody Daenerys, burning her way through the throne.
I actually think Loras will be the Faith’s “Champion”.
His sister has “converted” (haha) and he will follow suit to “make it stop”. It will also mean Loras goes bye-bye. 🙁
And how fitting would it be since the first time we saw Gregor fight, it was against Loras (briefly). I think this will be the end of the Tyrells as we know them.
I totally believe Cleganebowl will happen, just not as a trial-by-combat. I still think Cersei will send the Mountain (Ser Robert Strong) north at the end of the season for Sansa’s head. If all goes well and the Starks regain control of the north, she will be well aware at that point that Sansa is back in Winterfell. Her vengeance for Joffrey’s death has been on the back burner for some time. With the trial out of the way, she will want revenge. Misguided but not in Cersei’s mind.
She will send The Mountain north, Sandor will come back into the fold in someway and they will fight in Season 7. It’s easy, as a SanSan “shipper”, to say it’s because of his deep seeded Sansa feelings but I think the fight will be about protecting someone who he feels is worthy of protection, as oppose to straight up vengeance against his brother.
1. I think Cersei goes full cray-cray now that Jamie’s gone, even if it means cutting Tommen loose. The delicious irony is that she will be the one who fulfills the prophecy about all her children dying.
2. I hope Bran doesn’t turn into a time travel-athon. That’s how stories jump the shark. I’m cool if he sees and acts as the audience’s surrogate into Westeros’s history, and if he learns things that can help in the present, but by going back and changing things, it just messes up the story. Don’t turn this into “Donnie Darko”!
3. I think they still have some more work to do character-wise before I will fully believe she’s now the Mad Queen, but I think they’re pointing in that direction. I can see her returning to Mereen a changed person and upending everything Tyrion’s done, which causes him to ditch her.
Rampant speculation below. I look forward to listening tomorrow!
Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
The High Sparrow will want to leverage Tommen to overthrow the elder generation of the Tyrell’s/Lannister’s, starting with the former since Jamie is gone and Cersei already has a trial coming. Olenna seems like a more dynamic and vulnerable target than Mace, so I’ve got my money on the HS targeting her.
Margaery’s primary focus will be Loras, I think. She understands the importance of continuing their bloodline. I’m not confident Loras will make it, but I think that her “conversion” is a ploy to gain favor from the HS, and leverage that favor for her brother. To be fair, that’s a total guess, and the fact that I have no clue what her true end game is, is part of why I’m so excited for the KL story.
Cersei’s ready to tear shit up. That’s about all I can say for her. #wildfire
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I think Bran’s time-altering capabilities will be limited. If only because GRRM and D&D seem all too aware of how “cheap” that tactic can look. I expect another surprise or two, but I feel (hope) that Bran’s storyline will lead to an organic impact on the plot.
I’m hoping he’s a peacemaker, not a savior.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
Agh. I don’t think so. Not fully.
I do think that Dany is going to become, in some way, antagonistic. There are a lot of convincing pieces of evidence that point her arc in this direction, and she seems pretty set on ruthlessly conquering KL. Not to mention, with Tommen and Margaery’s conversion, the city finally appears like it may be in approval of it’s leadership. She would be crushing a city at peace (pending how KL fragilely progresses), rather than one plagued by slavery.
With that being said, I don’t think she’ll be the Mad Queen for a few reasons:
(1) Tommen will not last on the throne until the end. No one is currently vying for the throne outside of Dany. It seems unlikely that she’ll take the throne, and a predecessor will then emerge to replace her in the time we have left.
(2) She has a valid claim
(3) She appears to, at heart, have a good moral compass
(4) Her support seems crucial in the war against the white walkers, which will be the more important battle of the series.
Can’t wait to hear everyone else’s theories!
O/T but has anyone read this Jack Bender interview with Vanity Fair? It sounds like he accidentally confirmed that there are only seven episodes next season. It’s somewhere in the middle when he’s asked if he’s coming back and he says their only doing seven next season and have their usual stable of directors.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-jack-bender-lost-direwolves-hodor
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
Cersei will try to get her son back and win the trial by combat with Zombie Mountain. The Sparrow will disunite the Lannisters and Tytells even more. I expect tommen to die, but have no idea how. Maybe he will to inherit the crown to the faith would be a masterplan for the Sparrow.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
Bran saw an explosion of wildfire, we know they are stored beneath the sept of baelor so hopefully this will happen.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
It would be a horrible cheesy ending if John and Dany fight the WW together.
She has no right for the throne only blood and fire to take it with force. And nobody will cheer for her if she is invading with Ironborn, Dragonfire and Dothraki. It is like the cold war. The Soviet (Dany) beaten the Nazis (White Walker) to occupy Poland itself. Even if she isn’t mad she will never be a hero for Westeros even if she defeats the white walker. And always remember Aerys II. was a good person before he got mad in the end.
1. Margery is playing the long game. The HS sparrow will continue his ‘conversion’ trend by trying to add either Kevan Lannister or the Queen of Thrones to the fold. Cirsei is in trouble and her end-game is in sight. The grave-digger will appear in next episode. The ‘I choose violence’ speech is to come.
2. Bran has a major role uniting everyone south od the wall to join the battle with the NK in the seasons to come. The ‘ink is dry’ so he cannot change history.
3. Dany is in danger of drinking her own ‘kool aid’ and believing that She is the chosen one. She has no ballast or voice of reason to keep her in check without having Tyrion there. Daario & the Dothraki are just a bunch of yes men and fanboy groupies. She is in danger of going to the ‘dark side’ without Tyrion.
I just got reminded the bigger picture of where it’s probably all going. War of 5 queens. After they have fought off the WW invasion that’s what we’ll be left with. This is why Jon Snow is come back more of a background character. They want him to kill Ramsay and use his fighting skills and Valaryian sword on the baddies but even if he survives the focus will ultimately be on Dany, Marge, Sansa, Yara, Ellaria the last season. Margaery is rightful queen. Dany, if conquers and wins would be legit by heritage/ conquest (in my book that’s only if she didn’t use dragons cause unfair advantage) Sansa QITN won’t bend the knee for whatever reason, Yara will say hey Kahleesi I take what is mine and pay the iron price, and I want the Iron throne, Ellaria? Meh, I don’t know how that B comes into play…..
*I still prefer king Jon Targaryen though*
ygritte,
The Tyrells are smart. As soon as Dany lands her army Tommen is a goner. They treated Sansa very well in KL and they will then unite their houses by marriage. Jon & Margery!
1. I think something interesting which most people aren’t considering because of the “get hype” nonsense is what if Cersei isn’t allowed trial by combat? In a normal trial it’s on the table but maybe its not with High Sparrow. That would leave her kind of on an island with Jaime leaving and Franken Mountain unable to be used.
2. I don’t think Bran ever changed the past, that was the point of him being showed Hodors origin as his fault. I do think he will be able to use some of this information to help shape the future though. It is a little concerning to me for one character to have so much power.
3. Daenarys isn’t mad at all, but I think the ship has sailed on the i’m going to rule peacefully. I think things are gonna get out of hand for her when she reaches Westeros. 100,000 Dohraki, Unsullied, Stormcrows, and a fleet of Ironborn ships is recipe for chaos.
Nick Hartley does not sow!
redxgod,
Jon & Margery!
I could work with that.
As an aside I came across this review of last Ep and found it pretty funny 🙂
http://blacknerdproblems.com/game-of-thrones-recap-blood-of-my-blood/
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
High Sparrow & Margaery will work together to orchestrate the final downfall of Cersei as they both see her as a threat to the kingdom. Cersei will plan with Qyburn/use Mountain to orchestrate the elimination of anyone who gets in her way. By doing so, she will unintentionally causethe eventual death of Tommen.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I think Bran will be very careful initially. He will slowly start to put the pieces together once he gets his visions more under control. But my guess is he will unintentionally affect the past again before he makes a positive impact.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
I think initially she will, but at some point she will realize she has become her mad father in many ways and try to readjust.
1. Margaery will try to take over power through the faith; that is, to usurp the High Sparrow’s role and thus get rid of him. Cersei will act like the mental case she is.
2. I hope not; ok, this is something being said in respect of a fantasy show, but I don’t really like the idea of changing the past/future.
3. No, I don’t think so. A despotic queen yes, a mad one, I don’t think so.
1. I think the High Sparrow will take over and select Tommen as his champion for Cersei’s trial by combat- forcing her to forfeit it and go for a standard trial (which she has no chance of winning), and in Cersei’s trial she’ll “chose violence” and do something really ballsy and kill them all. Possibly setting the Sept on fire (with wildfire).
2. Bran can’t change history, but history as we know it has already been affected by a future Bran. So, what HAS he done to help in the war against the White Walker? Probably a lot. Including building the Wall and creating the Night’s Watch.
3. She won’t be the Mad Queen
With all due respect, if Daenerys Targaryen does not have a right to the throne, who does?
Yes, this is what I think too. I think all this coolness and calm and reassurance “yeah, don’t worry, I have the Mountain, no prob” is just used for the “shock” when the HS says “sorry Madame, but there is no trial by combat in our new holy rules” or something.
That sounds plausible too.
1. Cersei will probably be her stubborn self when she chats with Olenna. Wonder if those two are going to come up with a plan to get rid of the Sparrows. I guess Cersei will say she’ll let the Mountain do the most work when her trial begins or something like that.
2 and 3: I think that Bran will come forth to Daenerys in visions to show her where it’s really at. I highly doubt they’re going to depict Daenerys as the antagonist of the story. I mean, everything Dragon related kills White Walkers…. Daenerys will definitely be against the Walkers. I think it’d be too simple to just let Bran warg into one of her Dragons to fight the Walkers himself….
Not to forget, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Mad King happened to be a greenseer as well and might even have a conversation with Bran. Since Bran still can’t control his powers, perhaps he’s the one who gave the Mad King a good look at the White Walkers which then turned him mad, i.e. burn them all. Makes sense to me.
Also, since the producers said their favorite sequence is in episode 7 (filming lasted a week) I think that’s the scene of Sandor returning and perhaps a certain appearance from another character………
I’m only answering number three, because Dany’s the only reason I would stop watching Game of Thrones. If she becomes the Mad Queen, then the show will go back to being shocking and unpredictable. However, right now, Dany’s story is too damn predictable. She’s fireproof, and is a self-proclaimed Queen of everything. I was really hoping she would be humbled by the Dothraki, and learn from her mistakes. However, that wasn’t the case. She once again burned people alive(They deserved it, but still), she probably added a title like “The Khaleesi of all Khals”, and now she’s going to bring death and destruction, again, to Westeros. If they build up the WWs and all it takes is Dany’s dragons to defeat them, then that would be a huge letdown. If Dany becomes the Mad Queen she’s been portrayed as, then the show will give the audience an awesome twist. Until then, Dany’s story is one I mostly skip while watching GoT.
Jay Targ,
You refer positively to previous conquerors but are those the generally accepted version of history of an objective review of what happened?
I’m not familiar with the books but in the show it has been made clear that there ar more sides to a story. For example Jamie being a kingslayer and Ned Starks win at the TOJ…the accepted version of a story isn’t always realistic and victors write history!
1. It seems most likely to me that Cersei is happy to have Jaime gone so she can get down and dirty again. She will probably guess that Margaery is bullshitting about the conversion.
2. Bran will learn more about what the WW are planning / what their goals are.
3. Of course not. Powerful woman does a sort of dark thing – OMG SHE BE CRAZYYY. No one says Tyrion is crazy because he killed Tywin and Shae. No one says Jaime is crazy because he tried to kill Bran or killed his cousin. Or Tywin for all the horrible stuff he did. Also this case she’s pumping up some Dothraki. What is she supposed to say to them? “yeah! lets go and liberate the oppressed!” Come on people…
This might be why he underestimates her, IIRC he mentioned her love for her children as a reediming quality.If she has given up on Tom men however,that’s a completely different game and Jamie will now be a safe distance away…Her burning everythinh becomes more likely
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
The next play for Margaery and the HS is for Loras to champion the Faith at Cersei’s trial. That is his punishment and penance. He wins the fight tactically, and unlike Oberyn does not waste time in finishing things…except the dead can’t die. Loras is killed, and chaos erupts when the Faith tries to arrest Cersei for blasphemy with respect to the trial, and she “chooses violence”. The city burns, and the Dornish use the chance to launch a sneak attack. Varys’s little birds join the fray, and kill Qyburn (that’s what is in the trailer…they’ve been Varys’s all along). Along with some or all of the elder Tyrells, Margaery burns. Tommen sees this, and throws himself into the fires with her. Cersei thus has to watch her last child commit suicide, due to her own plan gone foul. She flees the city, making for Casterly Rock, where she will encounter Jaime next season.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
Time-travel and being able to change the past are a huge Chekov’s gun. It cannot remain unfired for the rest of the series. There would be no reason to introduce something like this unless it was story critical later on, but specifically what/when/why/how is close to impossible to guess, other than it will involve the White Walkers one way or the other. It won’t be this season, though.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
There are probably only three people on earth that know the answer to this – GRRM, Dan, and Dave. It is one of the key tensions of the series at this point, and we aren’t supposed to know…though I suspect the final answer will be both clever and neither a simple yes or no.
Just a quick couple of thoughts and possibly off on a bit of a tangent: like just about everyone else I reckon Marg is 100% faking it to get herself and her brother out of trouble, I suppose it’s possible the HS knows this and is playing her in return? Also, Cersei is relying on the Mountain winning a trial by combat for her, but what if she isn’t allowed one and has to have a straight forward trial? We’ve seen HS applies the rules as he sees fit and that religious ones aren’t the same a civil. If denied what she sees as her guaranteed way out that could make Cersei crazier than usual, although I think it will be Tommen’s fairly inevitable looking death that causes a complete breakdown and total revenge mode. She’s being worryingly calm at the moment, I doubt that will last. (I’m hoping she is responsible for the glowing green wildfire chaos as per Bran’s vision – fingers crossed!)
Ravyn,
7 – 1.5 hour episodes? LOL!
Also
Were there any changes after the fact in terms of which material belongs in which episode? In other words, were any of the scenes in these two episodes not scenes you shot?
I probably won’t break any codes by saying yes. There was an earlier scene or two that they had shot that ended up in Episode 5. There was a scene of mine, I believe, that’s going to end up somewhere else. There were more scenes, certainly, of the play [Arya is watching] that I shot. David and Dan wrote more of the play than what ended up in the episodes. If it doesn’t wind up elsewhere, it’ll end up on the DVD, I’m sure, because a lot of it was really fun.
Is that the rest of the tower sequence in the vision??
I’ve always thought that. The HS is smart and two steps ahead so far. He knows full well that Cersei using the Mountain would almost certainly give her victory, so she won’t get the option. I feel it’s pretty obvious.
Jonathan Pryce has already said that when the HS expects Cersei to show up for her trial something unpleasant happens. That just tells me she knows she can’t have a trial by combat and she’s got no intention of submitting herself to a trial by the faith, so she “chooses violence”
Halfman,
Pretty sure the Tyrells + Tommen are done like dinner by Episode 10. Including Marg
1.) Tommen / KL / High Sparrow:
The High Sparrow really only has one more major opponent in King’s Landing, and that is Cersei. She has to be the “next target.” She seems confident that she can choose a trial by combat, but I suspect that the High Sparrow and maybe even Tommen will negate this option somehow. At this point, I’m sure she’d enter her “I choose violence” mode.
As for Margaery, I’m sure she’s taking the lead for the Tyrells, the rest of whom will fall in line with her ploy whether they like it or not. Their ultimate goal will be to get Loras released.
2.) Bran and History:
Bran is going to be central to the final act of this story. But what it is he does between now and the end of the season is really obscure. It seems like Team Bran should head for the Wall, but from what Benjen told him in the last episode, it doesn’t seem like they’re going to rush there.
Like many others, I still have a lot of questions about his Mark from the Night King. Was it a one-off plot device to get him out of the cave, or is it something he will have forever? If it’s the latter, will passing through the Wall negate that structure’s magic keeping the Walkers at bay? Does the Mark act as some sort of connection between Bran and the Night King, like Harry Potter as a horcrux of Voldemort?
3.) Daenerys the Mad Queen?
This one is easy. Daenerys will never become a Mad Queen as long as Tyrion Lannister advises her.
Nick Hartley,
Whoops! I posted my comments before reading other people’s. We’re obviously thinking along the same lines 🙂
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
I think That the High Sparrow is growing confident about his hold on King’s Landing, and that will ultimately be his demise. I think he knows that Margaery is doing this to get herself and Loras out, but he’s ok with it, since it’s helping him overcome Cersei. Margaery thinks she’s got this, and she probably has a very good plan, she’s an amazing player, very talented, unfortunately for her, Game of Thrones usually kills off talented players when they are on their prime. And that’s where Cersei will come to make her play. She has this initial plan to demand trial by combat (I suspect that for some reason it will not come to be) and the backup plan in which she blows up King’s Landing with wildfire, or at least the Sept (or Throne Room, don’t know where it will take place), on the day of her trial. Her plan is crazy, and she knows that Jaime won’t be happy about it, that’s why she encouraged him to leave. I think she knows there is nothing left for her after Tommen dies, which she knows will happen one way or another, so might as well just kill all of her enemies in King’s Landing.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
I think the old Three Eyed Raven was right, the ink is already dry, it’s just a loop. Whatever Bran has affected in the past, like Hodor, is already written. What I think is in store now for Bran is crossing the Wall and, by doing that, bringing down the ward protecting the Wall from the white walkers, therefore bringing the invasion of white walkers on Westeros. He will be able to confirm that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar’s son (and Melisandre’s “prophecy” of Azor Ahai) when he reunites with the gang in the retaken Winterfell. I think his visions of wildfire and the Mad King have some connection to the war against the white walkers. Maybe wildfire is a weapon against them, but I’m not sure yet what all of this means. I think that his vision of the wildfire explosion inside the vault is a forsight of Cersei’s blowing up of King’s Landing, or the Sept of Baelor or The Red Keep. I don’t know.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
I don’t think Daenerys will be the Mad Queen, but she has a little Targaryen madness alright. I think she is coming to terms with the fact that she is not meant to rule, but to conquer, and that’s where she thrives. She will come to Westeros only to find the white walker invasion and I believe that will be her true purpose to the story in the end, fighting the “Great Other” beside Jon Snow. I think the story is trying to draw a parallel between Jon’s melancholy and icy brooding personality (ice) and Dany’s passion and fiery no nonsense attitude (fire).
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
My guess is the Cersei will get Lancel Lannister to take out the HS. Much like Milady De Winter turned Buckingham’s most loyal man into an assassin. Just a guess, but that would be the ultimate piece of hubris for the HS.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
Bran has to want to interact with history. The Mad King was mad when he killed Rickard and Brandon. Bran has no reason to visit the Mad King prior to that. He was mad all on his own (in the books, it is assumed his time in Duskendale set him down the path of madness. However, not on the show. Just assumed he is bat shit crazy. I think the flashbacks are all about the wildfire – which will be used this season in the present.
As you saw from what happened to 3ER when the Night King killed him – he disappeared from the past. Therefore, a greenseer can’t exist past his body’s life on the TV world. I don’t believe Bran will somehow become Max Von Sydow. I think Bran’s “changing” history is about to end. Of course, I also thought Betamax would beat VHS.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
No. She is not mad. She is inexperienced. From her perspective, her parents were brutally murdered, she was sold off by her older brother, and she got her unborn child and husband killed. King Robert tried to have her killed. She has been spied on. From her perspective, this game is for keeps. It is kill or be killed. A mad person wouldn’t worry so much about slavery. A mad person wouldn’t have had the good sense to take in Tywin Lanister’s son as her Hand. A mad person wouldn’t have chained her dragons because a child was killed. She is pissed off. Plus, the speech was her Patton moment – again. Now, once she has to start dealing with the lord of light priests in Mereen, she will really get angry.
I wonder, if Daeny wasn’t a Targaryen and the daughter of the mad king, would people even say “she is showing some signs of madness” or has done some “mad” things?
I really don’t think so.
I never once heard that Stannis was MAD???
The guy burnt people for the sake of something. Like come on now!!!!!!!!!
4- Can danny now ride drogon and control him?? If so, how, what changed?
4.1- Danny now has the world’s best infantry, cavalry, air force, all being gifted to her by the powers of the script and soon the world’s best navy. In this game (of thrones) that’s OP. Facing this, can the NK do something other than melt?
5- What’s with the waif hatred for arya? Is she jealous of the attentions of sexy jesus to arya? No-one my ass.
Also not of this chapter, but very important:
6- Have Jon’s wounds healed? Will they heal? If he drinks does he leaks??
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
Margaery is probably hoping Cersei implodes and knocks herself out of the game. She might not be entirely aware that Cersei has repeatedly threatened to go out with a bang.
I suspect Cersei will pit her champion against the Faith’s champion, that he will be Loras Tyrell (a bid by the High Sparrow to fracture the Lannister-Tyrell partnership) – and that she will lose the Trial by Combat. What happens then is anyone’s guess, though I’m liking the suggestions that she will turn to her insane alchemist for help in blowing the entire city into the bay.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
Big question. We don’t know for sure how the Three Eyed Raven has influenced history, or if he even ever did. Bran’s relevance will probably depend on imparting his superior knowledge to others, but is there something unknown that could be important?
Sam, Jon and others already know how the White Walkers can be destroyed so that’s not it. Knowing who created them is interesting but doesn’t seem immediately relevant. Jon’s parentage is somewhat more compelling, but Jon would still be born out of wedlock and thus a bastard. I’m not sure about this one. He has been so detached from the other characters that it’s not immediately clear how he could play a role.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
How can she be anything else? She is planning to invade a continent that fought a bloody war to rid itself of her dynasty. She is not welcome, and neither are her stormtroopers and barbarians.
Daenerys will probably arrive in a Westeros faced with the Stark reality that Winter has come. Could Daenerys ‘do a Stannis’ and march North – defeating the White Walkers but dying there along with her dragons?
What is the endgame here? I for one would be very unimpressed and disappointed if the story ends in a ‘united humanity’ vs. ‘white walkers’. That seems so binary and trite. But if it does come to that, don’t underestimate Petyr Baelish to pick up the pieces.
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
Cersei is going to find out how the HS is planning to thwart the Mountain at the trial (I like others’ suggestions here that Tommen will be his champion or that the 7 gods don’t permit trial by combat). Maybe from one of Qyburn’s little birds. Thus, she’ll skip the trial, and the Faith Militant will come after her and she will “choose violence.” Mountain Mayhem. Bye, bye Lancel. Cersei’s ace in the hole is Qyburn. No one else (except maybe Pycelle) really understands what she’s had him doing for her. Is it more wildfire? His Clegane project was completed a while ago. He’s been doing more than just seducing Varys’ little birds. The question here is whether the little birds really do still belong to Varys, and Varys could use them to take out Qyburn just when Cersei needs him.
Agree w/ others that Margaery is faking her conversion in order to get Loras out. Not clear to me that the HS will go along with it, however. Loras’ “crime” of homosexuality would be very difficult to let slide without some horrible “atonement” (it’s not 21st century Europe/North America, people!).
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
After what happened with Hodor, Bran will be more careful in using his power. He won’t warg into people anymore. So, while he might be the voice that whispers to a newly-made eunuch from the flames or a Stark by the weirwood tree, he won’t be the cause of the Mad King’s madness, for example. He will pass through the Wall to tell Jon his true identity and mission in stopping the White Walkers. And this will be the way the Night King finally penetrates the Wall.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
Daario is right: she’s a conqueror, not a ruler. That’s why she’s going to abandon Meereen to sail off and conquer Westeros. (It’s also why Euron is not long for this world. She doesn’t bargain for ships, she takes them. Either he bends the knee or he’s toast. And he doesn’t seem like the knee-bending type.)
Tyrion, however, is a ruler, not a conqueror. Will Dany be wise enough, after taking KL, to let him sit the throne as her Hand while she flies north with the dragons to save Westeros from the White Walkers? And does this mean that, at the end, the old order will reassert itself . . . a Lannister de facto in charge . . . Varys back as master of whisperers . . . Littlefinger back on the council because they need him? Pycelle? After all the fighting, the wanton destruction, all the raping/pillaging/killing, the ruination of the kingdom, the war of the 5 kings, the rise and fall of the Faith, the invasion of the dragons/Dothraki, the Battle of Armageddon with the White Walkers, the same players will still be there presiding over the ashes of a once-great kingdom and the small folk suffer. This seems like a GRRM ending.
By the way, there’s a question you forgot to ask: What’s Arya’s role in all this? D&B haven’t kept her around for nothing.
James Morris,
Petyr will die long before that
I don’t think there is anyway Dany goes mad. She has no idea about the WW threat ATM. I think KL will be completely destroyed. Lannistera flee to Casterly Rock and Tyrells flea to Highgarden. That scene with Many comes to pass. She is in the throne room , snow/ash falling. She is hit with the reality of the WW. I don’t see how they will have time to plan a Day battle with the south lords and then the WW. Who most likely will be in the realm or at the wall at the end of this season. I also have a weird feeling that close to the end of the battle of Bastards, like while they are fighting, the WW interrupt the battle. Forcing all factions to unite.
Dee,
Stannis definitely was more mad than Dany, I just don’t think anyone ever truly took his claim seriously. To me at least, it also felt like Stannis was being manipulated by Mel, whereas Dany very much makes her own decisions.
Dany on the other hand is the by-miles front runner for the throne, and she has definitely had some questionable moments. She’s bent on conquering Westeros, which will likely be necessitated by violence and slaughter of innocent people. If KL doesn’t implode on itself first, anyway.
I think she may become antagonistic in her attempts to take the throne, but I agree that she will not become the Mad Queen. She seems too well-tempered to be plagued by violent paranoia when/if she actually sits on the throne.
Please Explain how any of that makes her a “mad queen” except as an obvious double standard where war makes Dany “mad” when she does it, but it makes other characters (Jon, Jaime, etc) “awesome” when they do it.
Second, they wanted to get rid of Aerys. Only Tywin and Robert hated all Targaryens and thought child murder was OK.
eejazz,
He still did it. And to top it off, burnt his own daughter
I just find it funny that people never called him mad
And so what if no one took Stannis’ claim seriously?
Actually, people who do call Daeny mad (in the comments lately) have also been saying she has no claim…. so…………
QueenofThrones,
honestly, if she wasn’t the mad king’s daughter, no one would be discussing if she goes mad or not.
Dee,
And its like the stupidest thing. Because like I said before, there have been plenty of targaryan siblings who were like night and day, bad and good, mad and sane. Viserys was the mad one. Dany is not going to go mad. Yes there is some fascination with fire. But that’s simply showing her power. Not some random burning mofos. Like oh you talk back to me, im gonna burn you.
Beer Island,
seriously..
Dee,
People who say she has no claim are clearly just Dany haters. She has the most legitimate claim of pretty much anyone in the 7 kingdoms IMO.
I think a lot of the hype around Dany being Mad (as opposed to no one really bringing it up re: Stannis) is because it wasn’t really expected by most people. When we first met Stannis he was burning people alive, so people realized there was something savage about him from the start. I don’t recall seeing too many Stannis supporters, especially among Unsullied. Essentially, he wasn’t driven Mad on-screen – we were introduced to him as someone who already had an unstable grip on reality.
Dany on the other hand has always been painted as a heroin of the story, from my perspective. Just recently, the theory of her antagonism has become more and more speculated, in part because of all the clues that have been dropped. The Mad King was painted as someone who was a once-adequate ruler, and then became totally barbaric and lost his mind. As of yet, we haven’t seen any characters mirror that transition of good >> evil. Even Cersei has always been painted as a villain to some extent, so her Madness wouldn’t come out of left field as dramatically as Dany’s would.
TLDR; the focus is on Dany bc (1) yes, her lineage, but also (2) there ARE legitimate hints that point in the direction (a valid argument can be made), and it would be a character transition unlike one we’ve ever seen in GoT.
For the record, I don’t think there’s any chance that this series ends with Dany as a stark villain. I expect more shades of gray to emerge, but I envision her coming out of it in a positive light when all is said and done.
eejazz,
eejazz,
Great explanation on why it is a different situation vs Stannis and others
Thanks for clarifying.
Though I disagree, again, with the Mad stuff still don’t think it would be brought up should she not have been the daughter of a mad king. lol
If Daenerys is to be a Mad Queen, I would give more credit to Emilia Clarke’s hit or miss acting skills. The vast majority of her absolute cheese scenes (such as the one that just ended episode 6) would make a lot more sense if her ultimate destiny was to be insane.
Dee,
Hahaha fair enough. It would be infinitely less likely, but I do think when you add up a lot of small pieces of evidence, there is a definitive case for why she isn’t a great ruler and that she has a tendency for violence.
I tend to agree with you on what the actual outcome will be, and it probably would be much less of a topic were she not a Targaryen. Regardless, I’ll be interested to see how it plays out.
It’s also possible that she gets the Targaryen bias on this topic within the show! E.g. Bran sees the Mad King + Dany, and warns Jon that she appears to be the same. That type of situation could lead to the theorized Jon v. Dany, although at this point there are definitely a lot of pieces still missing for that.
Either way, you’re definitely right in implying that her name can hurt her quite a bit. Though, it’s also that which gives her the claim in the first place, so what can you do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
QueenofThrones,
Expressing a desire to rule a society, or indeed a number of societies, which have within living memory waged a war to end the rule of your dynasty strikes me as fairly malevolent. Especially since that society has only just suffered through the War of the Five Kings. To consciously set out to inflict a war on a people seems worthy of the moniker Mad Queen, all the more so since her only known supporters are foreign to Westeros. Just this last episode, she expressly asked these people to “kill my enemies” and to “tear down their stone houses”.
Jon, as far as I know, has never stated similar desires. That said, after his resurrection he has decided to get involved in the politics of the northern nobles. He of all people should know better than to waste time, money, resources and most of all lives on such a conflict while the White Walkers and their army of undead approach. He should have learned a thing or two from Mance on that score. I would definitely put him down as being on a downward spiral, so I’m not sure there’s any double standard there.
Jamie is a thoroughly dislikeable person. He has done a few good deeds in his time, but as Stannis would have said, good and bad deeds do not cancel each other out. These and other characters have all done “awesome” things, but that doesn’t make them “awesome” people. That’s one of the great things about this series, I think. Very few of the main characters are respectable human beings, yet the audience can not only follow their reasoning, but even feel involved in their plight.
I therefore hope to see many more episodes about the exploits of the Mad Queen!
eejazz,
Great points!!! Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
It could be a possbility. Cersei could send FrankenMountain to the North to go after Sansa. I just had this bad feeling after Tommen dismissed Jaime from the Kingsguard for going against the Faith Militant.
Ian McShain as
will present the Broken Man
(GraveDigger/Hound/Sandor Clegane) at the end
and CLEGANE BOWL is ON.
It is known.
Anyone who says different is a CamelCunt!
1. Tommen has been converted. What is left in the High Sparrow / Margaery playbook? How will Cersei play / be played once Jaime has left the city?
Wouldn’t it be horrific if the High Sparrow chooses Tommen as the Faith’s Champion against FrankenGregor? I truly have no inkling as to how this will go, except I have a feeling those waves of wildfire we saw barreling down those tunnels in Bran’s vision were flashes of the future, not the past. I think the Sept of Baelor will go boom, if not the castle itself.
2. Bran has seen much. But what does it mean? Will he continue to “change” history?
Ahhhhh I don’t know. I think he might be 3ER. I don’t know enough about how he manipulates time and space. If the Mad King’s madness was made worse by Bran or the 3ER’s whispering in his ear to try to fix things (a theory I don’t entirely love), then are we supposed to start feeling retroactively terrible for Aerys, like we did with Hodor? I don’t know if my feelings are flexible enough for that.
3. There is much talk and speculation for this on both sides. Will Daenerys be the Mad Queen?
I think she *wants* to rule a peaceful kingdom, but I think she will use every resource at her disposal to gain control of what she believes to be her birthright, which comes off a little mad. I am scared honestly, because I am a Dany fan, but I’m a much bigger Stark fan, and at some point I’m going to have to choose a side. I wonder when that will be.
1. Margerey plays the long con, but I don’t think she include Tommen in her plans, she manipulated him into thinking she has been converted. (Because she know that Tommen can’t lie)
2. I think that Bran has a large part to play with his “powers”. Not only we are going to see things that happened (Who is Jon’s mother) but I think we will see how he made the past: Building of the wall, mad king going mad. I still think Bran and the 3ER are/were the Lord of Light.
3. Dannereys is already a little bit mad in my opinion. If you look at the way GRRM wrote his book, the hints he gave, the hints in the book and if you look at her in a psychological way, she’s a bit mad, not like her father hearing whispers more a different kind of mad.
The hints that were given were the following:
– The way Barristan (the one that knew the mad king) talked about the mad king and made a comparison with Dannereys, he warned her that she’s becoming her father. (TV-show) The Mad King started out as a lovely man, doing everything for the good of the realm, even in the books (don’t know if it is in the show) it is stated that the mad king was one of the most heartwarming man there was.
– Look at the show and you see that every season she becoming a little bit darker. I think that before the season end she wants to become good but she will choose bad (more about that later, my prediction how the season will end for Dannereys)
– Look at her story and her character, and look at the kind of story GRRM tells, he already admitted that he’s a major History freak. So look at the history and the people who did things for “the greater good”, most of the time they end in genocide of a specific group of people.
– Dannereys already admitted that she’s going to destroy the people who will appose her (her last speech). And if you think even one house (expect Dorne and Greyjoys) will bend to her, you’re wrong. No one in westeros wants to bend to her when she’s ariving with a Iron fleet and a horde Dothraki.
– Interviews: GRRM told that westeros will face 3 evils: the civil war, the White walkers and the invasion from the east. Second interview was with Emilia Clark at the beginning of the season, she stated that season 6 will be the season with the biggest change in her character.
My prediction Dannereys/Tyrion storyline ending season 6.
– What we have seen: Dannereys freeing slaves, she hates slavery. Dannereys Locks her dragons up. Tyrion Freed her dragons. Tyrion gave slavery a go for 7 years.
– My prediction: When Dannereys finds out about Tyrion giving slavery another go for 7 years, she will be furious at him, and we know how she reacts about this subjects. She will bring Tryion to the dungeon to give him to the dragons. But the dragons didn’t forget how they ended up in the dungeon and who freed them, they will choose Tyrion’s side. This will be the turn point of who Dannereys will be, her children choose somebody else over her.
Long story short: I don’t think Dannereys is meant to be a savior. I think it’s a show (dannereys part) how a good person can turn bad.
1. I think Margerey’s has made a deal with the High Sparrow, her alliance for her brother. Margerey is hoping that Cersei and the High Sparrow will destroy each other, without her having to get her hands dirty. She’s not taking into account Cersei and her dislike for her. Cersei wants all out war with the High Sparrow and she won’t let Tommens alliance stop her. She will use Varys little birds, in order to get the information to kill Loras and make Margerey and the Tyrell’s believe they have been double crossed. Then Cersei will sit back and watch the ensuing carnage.
2. Bran will try to not change the past, because of what happened to Hodor. However he will not be able to help himself and will try and interfere. I think he tries to stop King Aerys and turns him into the Mad King, which causes the first war.
3. Dany will take drastic and horrific actions to gain power. But once she is in power she will realise what is the right thing to do.