George RR Martin revealed “three holy sh– moments” from the books to Benioff and Weiss

Hodor Nan

How much the Game of Thrones showrunners do and don’t know about the unwritten and unpublished A Song of Ice and Fire novels is up for debate, but David Benioff and D.B. Weiss certainly know of a few major moments, Entertainment Weekly is reporting.

*Future book spoilers in this post*

Benioff and Weiss refer to these ASOIAF plot points that Martin has shared with them as “three holy sh– moments.”

As reported previously, Martin discussed Shireen’s burning in season 5 with Benioff and Weiss, though it’s not clear if the girl’s death will play out exactly as it did onscreen.

The showrunners have admitted this week, in the wake of “The Door,” that Martin shared the basis of Hodor’s name to them. However, fan reports from an event at the Jean Cocteau Cinema last night lead us to believe that the books won’t be completely the same. While interviewing author Joe Hill, George R.R. Martin discussed the latest episode and acknowledged that while Hodor’s name means “Hold the Door,” the reveal and its context will be very different as written.

The third revelation, according to EW and Benioff, “… is from the very end…”

“People are talking about whether the books are going to be spoiled – and it’s really not true,” Benioff tells EW. “So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George is either. People are going to be very surprised when they read the books after the show. They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.”

Of course the fact that they’ve just confirmed there are spoilers from the books from Martin contradicts some of this!

465 responses

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    1. Can’t they just stick to one side and stay there?

      Their motto should be : “What happens in the show may or may not happen in the books.”

      Not : “This is from the books! That’s from the books! One more twist to go!”

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    2. Would it surprise anyone if Martin was changing previously written details to distinguish it from the series?

      In a way, I feel bad for the guy. I know, he’s at home rolling around in piles of money. Poor guy. But on one level, it’s got to kill him that his surprises are being told by someone else. Then again, he has no one to blame but himself.

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    3. Iam positive that this twist will be between WW dany and Jon ..

      Particularly in regards with the spiral imagery ..
      Its no coincidence dany is associated with the spiral as well ..from the end of season 1,3,5

      This is something I expect is how they will resolve the whole conflict…

      She is constantly running from cold ones and blue hearts in her dreams and visions ..
      I just can’t figure out what it will be..

      I just hope its not something like her being ending up as nights queen so the nights kings retreat back .

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    4. The fact that the first White Walker was created by the Children as a weapon against humanity is a pretty big oh shit reveal, too. I’m assuming something that major can’t change from book to show as that is what sets the entire world history in motion. I’m still looking forward to the book, though, as we got almost no explanation of why they had to do that, how it went wrong, who that first man was, why dragonglass specifically both binds and breaks the spell, how Valyrian steel has the same effect, how the first that they created is able to create more by himself by changing human boys, why they all seem to be boys and never girls, how they gained the ability to raise and control the dead. I’m sure the books will explain all that. If the final book is never published, I hope Martin at least stored his notes somewhere and somebody publishes them.

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    5. I agree that, regardless of what happens in the show, the books are going to be different. Even if Gurm is influenced by the show, he’s not going to imitate it.

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    6. Ravyn,

      He can.

      But he can’t change what he already written. Can’t throw away all the build-up away and ignore the forshadowing in the previous books.
      Not to mention he said he always knew where the story will go.

      He had ample time, I feel sorry for him, truly, but he is the only one to blame here.
      And I think even he knows this.

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    7. Ravyn,

      This.

      It also gives him a chance to see how things actually look, and maybe change things if he thinks they actually wouldn’t work the way he imagined. I’m sure he will do this consciously, but it is inevitable that subconsciously he will be doing things along these lines. There’s no way he won’t be influenced, even if he tries not to be. In a way it is a fortunate place to be as writers seldom get the chance to see how their ideas are viewed before they publish material, but as you say I bet he’s absolutely devastated that the show will finish before he does.

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    8. Massive lol if the “very end” basically means panning out from Westeros to reveal Planetos is in a Giants eye

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    9. So I was thinking I don’t know anyone said about this before because I didn’t read the recap threads fully. .

      So say if someone removes the obsidan from the inside of NK…will he become a normal man and all the wights fall dead and end the WW magic.

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    10. Ravyn,

      If he does then the books will never come out ..

      He had been working on this story for past 25 years and yet still struggling to complete the series ..
      If he changes the plot based on show and from what he had envisioned then it will take him another 25 years..

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    11. dragonbringer:
      Iam positive that this twist will be between WW dany and Jon ..

      Particularly in regards with the spiral imagery ..
      Its no coincidence dany is associated with the spiral as well ..from the end of season 1,3,5

      This is something I expect is how they will resolve the whole conflict…

      She is constantly running from cold ones and blue hearts in her dreams and visions ..
      I just can’t figure out what it will be..

      I just hope its not something like her being ending up as nights queen so the nights kings retreat back .

      That could actually be it

      There was something weird about Obsidian being used in the creation of WW’s then there’s the Hodor loop

      Of course Obsidian or Dragonglass is “Frozen Fire” which if you think about it is Ice and Fire…

      Basically there’s a theme of things “folding in on themselves”

      After last week I wondered if Dany and Night’s King would mirror eachother, eg Dany leading a horde of undead Greyscale infected Dothraki from the South (Dorne) while the Night’s King leads a horde of undead Wights from the North

      Of course Jon has always been a bridging character, eg NW and Wildlings, Mel and Val, and possibly North and South Westeros and in the final scheme of things Dany and the Night’s King (Essos and Westeros) and finally he’s the synthesis of Ice and Fire, Stark and Targeryen and through whom the entire thing will fold in on itself

      Whatever happens, there’s a mind-blowing twist to it all I suspect

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    12. Are you sure they meant “of the books”? Might be talking about the last episode of Season 6. Adds up with what we know from the other article about Ned’s final appearance.

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    13. I am enjoying this season more knowing that the books, if they are ever published, will be quite different. I still think the fates of the main 6 characters will be virtually the same, but the journey will be far different, as we have seen already.

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    14. Mihnea,

      Maybe someone we know who rides a dragon can ride to the heart of winter where the tree and spiral is actually present and destroy them.

      Which affects the NK which gives Jon an edge to over power him and takes the dragon glass out .

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    15. dragonbringer,

      I don’t think he’ll change the plot. He’s already said the show and book will end at the same place. That’s locked in. But he may change details which isn’t as time consuming. Then again, I also believe D&D when they say there’s a chasm of difference between how they get to the end and how GRRM gets there. Martin has already said he’s come up with something new that he hadn’t thought of previously that the show can’t mimic because they crossed that bridge.

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    16. Ravyn:
      Would it surprise anyone if Martin was changing previously written details to distinguish it from the series?

      In a way, I feel bad for the guy. I know, he’s at home rolling around in piles of money. Poor guy. But on one level, it’s got to kill him that his surprises are being told by someone else. Then again, he has no one to blame but himself.

      A poster on a weeks ago thread said, “How does it feel, George, that your child is calling someone else Dad now?”

      Sums it up nicely.

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    17. Maybe if they’d just keep their mouths shut instead if immediately saying “that’s going to be from the books” right afterwards…
      I mean, they’ve changed so much already its not like we’d know who’s idea it was.

      They just seem like they want to screw over the readers by deliberately pointing out what’s going to be in the books right after saying they aren’t going to.

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    18. dragonbringer:
      So I was thinking I don’t know anyone said about this before because I didn’t read the recap threads fully. .

      So say if someone removes the obsidan from the inside of NK…will he become a normal man and all the wights fall dead and end the WW magic.

      This crossed my mind as well. Now that Bran has seen how they were created, he may communicate to someone (since he has mobility issues himself) that the way to stop the WW/Others is to yank that shard out of the NK’s frozen heart. Like ‘The Snow Queen.’

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    19. Of course the fact that they’ve just confirmed there are spoilers from the books from Martin contradicts some of this!

      They literally said “there are certain key elements that will be the same.” What contradiction is there?

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    20. Nev,

      Nah I think they meant end of the series.Plus what you are implying they already guessed before getting the rights to the series so that wouldn’t be a holy shit moment for them

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    21. Ghosts Lunch:
      Massive lol if the “very end” basically means panning out from Westeros to reveal Planetos is in a Giants eye

      Beyond lol if GoT a is a video game reinitializing one more time.

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    22. The third revelation, according to EW and Benioff, “… is from the very end…” of the books.

      Someone from way, way into the future, is manipulating everyone and all events in this story?
      Something about genetic experiments done on a species of dragons and humans in the future or in the past? (Clearly time in this world is very flexible and controllable for the right people.)
      Something about why seasons were so off in Planetos, and how that will be regularized?

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    23. Ghosts Lunch,

      Well don’t you think that your theory of grey scale affected dothraki is thrown out of the window after last episode ..since jorah and she parted ways.

      I think that bridging chanracter not alone restricted to Jon …dany has been uniting all the people in essos than Jon has been doing at the north..

      I view both dany and Jon as same

      And three is bran to consider as well…

      Mihnea,

      Yeah that too

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    24. Tycho Nestoris:
      I don’t know how GRRM is gonna out-HODOR that sequence.

      Like this:

      Hodor, hold the door said Meera. Hodor could smell the scent of freashly eaten porridge she had earlier as she shouted the words and the army of undead was closing in. That porridge was made by plants Jojen had gathered earlier today. It was hard work Hodor noted because the heavy rain had made the roads muddy and slow to walk upon. In the forrest it was even harder the trees blocked any sunlight from shining upon the mushrooms so it was impossible to make out which weren´t poinsoned. Hodor recalled as the undead have started clawing and biting him how Jojen explained to him in full detail the three types of trees he saw in the Haunted forrest but this was no time to think about the exciting things as he felt the undead were staring to beak trough the door. Hodor held and dugg his feet in for a beter gripp and sudennly his toughts have wandered off … Jojen has not eaten today! His porridge was siting an the table untouched. Hodor fealt sorry for there is no worse sin before the old gods and the new as uneaten porridge. That was the last thing that went trough Hodors head before a wights axe chopped his head off.

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    25. My feeling is that a lot of stuff in this season or next one will be a lot different in the books or happen under vry different circumstances. Partially I can understand that, as some people wouldn’t buy the books since they’ll know the ending. George will try to separate himself from the books. Ever since was the time that it was very clear how show will overtake the books. I fthouht about this but let’s look at this fro mthe bright side. We’ll get two versions of this beautiful story and learn something new, different twists,

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    26. Mihnea:
      Adam,

      Sadly he said, that he doesn’t want anyone to publish it if he doesn’t finish it.

      He doesn’t want anyone to complete the story, but I don’t see why we can’t get his notes, a la Silmarillion.

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    27. Being a novelist/playwright himself, I really like that Benioff is doing Martin a solid by always emphasizing how different the book and show journeys will be.

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    28. Kay: Someone from way, way into the future, is manipulating everyone and all events in this story?
      Something about genetic experiments done on a species of dragons and humans in the future or in the past? (Clearly time in this world is very flexible and controllable for the right people.)
      Something about why seasons were so off in Planetos, and how that will be regularized?

      Dear lord, it’s a global warming cautionary tale! ?

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    29. Have to ask what is the reaction from Linda this time around. .last time she was furious when D&D said that how GRRM told about shireen death ..

      I just can’t wait to see what will be the reaction when RLJ is revealed…will people act like its not spoilery and keep denying

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    30. Wow… The Hodor reveal was so stellar that I absolutely thought they must’ve adapted it from an unpublished manuscript.

      If it really is different in context, depending on how different, REALLY impressed with how the show handled it (much better than Shireen, which could’ve been better had it not been so rushed).

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    31. Kay,

      Are CotF, WWs, even Valyrians species native to Planetos? Is intergalactic war being conducted by proxy on Planetos?

      Is the long winter the result of nuclear activity? Is the killing force in south Essos residual radioactivity? Are the statues of misshapen critters captured by Dothraki and taken to the Dothraki homeland depictions of the result of radioactivity?

      Now that glamouring is out of the closet, are instigators such as Varys, Littlefinger and Mopatis really human?

      Plenty of room for reveals.

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    32. Marlana: A poster on a weeks ago thread said, “How does it feel, George, that your child is calling someone else Dad now?”
      Sums it up nicely.

      Ouch! Hahaha

        Quote  Reply

    33. Mihnea,

      I recently saw a video from her and Elio pop up on my youtube recommendations… i thought they were done watching and reviewing the show, lol.

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    34. HelloThere,

      Of course they wouldn’t stop… It’s in their nature.

      Hell I think she is even translating the episodes in Swedish, for HBO.. They hate it….but sure as hell they don’t hate the publicity and money they get from it.

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    35. Do you guys think that the Wall will come down this season, at the end? I think it will be a great cliffhanger for sure. I hope to see the White Walkers briefly in episode 10.

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    36. Ravyn:
      Being a novelist/playwright himself, I really like that Benioff is doing Martin a solid by always emphasizing how different the book and show journeys will be.

      Yes, and GRRM is doing the show a solid by holding back the reveals of WoW and following volumes.

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    37. dragonbringer,

      Jon might represent union of Ice and Fire=he might be the bridge in the future between Ice (Walkers, Night’s King) and Daeny with her dragons symbolizing Fire. That’s what was meant. Daeny is bridging character by uniting people in Essos and Jon in the North. Nobody denies that. This might be the whole purpose of his parentage to find the balance not only in himself as a person, but to help it restore in the Westeros.

      Ghosts Lunch,

      Some nice thoughts. Rise of Walkers/Night’s King and Daeny with dragons mirror each other more than people think. Of course Jon and Daeny shares many paralllels bt so do them. Two incredibly strong forces are gathering for the final war. Daeny is slowly getting a lot of people on her side: Dothraki, Unsullied, Second Sons, 3 dragons, Ironborn and Dorne might easily follow her. very soon. When you compare Jon to it it’s a just fragment of it. He’s got wildlings and probably few smaller houses in the North. Sansa is the key to Vale and Riverlands.

      Jon always seemed stuck in the middle and if parentage is what it is, he might well be the bridging character in the end.

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    38. Marlana,

      That’s awesome speculation. After Hodor, I now wonder if we might get a Twilight Zone/Planet of the Apes style last twist at the end, where the ancient fantasy saga we thought we were watching turns out to be an apocalyptic sci-fi thriller.

      Maybe ASOIF

      is a spinoff of Jack Vance’s Dying Earth series. Vance is one of Martin’s favorite authors.

      🙂

        Quote  Reply

    39. One thing that might factor into the end is the Night King and his bros being immune to fire (we’ve seen that twice now). The dragons may be able to destroy the undead horde, but they may not work well for killing the King.

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    40. I swear it to the drowned god, the old gods, the new gods, to every fucking god and every fucking heaven I will shoot my TV if GRRM’s plan is to end this story with a Donnie Darko rip-off in which Bran travels back in time to sacrifice himself so that future tragedies are prevented from happening. That will be awful, IMO.

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    41. dragonbringer:
      Iam positive that this twist will be between WW dany and Jon ..

      Particularly in regards with the spiral imagery ..
      Its no coincidence dany is associated with the spiral as well ..from the end of season 1,3,5

      This is something I expect is how they will resolve the whole conflict…

      She is constantly running from cold ones and blue hearts in her dreams and visions ..
      I just can’t figure out what it will be..

      I just hope its not something like her being ending up as nights queen so the nights kings retreat back .

      I’ve often wondered if there’s a link/ contract between the WW (“ice dragons?”) and the Valyrians as some of the WW really do resemble Valyrians in terms of the hair/ armour/ eyes. Although Sunday’s episode kinda pissed on that, but you may be on to something.

        Quote  Reply

    42. Shipp,

      The dragons will burn down the wights and it’s down to ground forces to find and kill the NK and his posse with dragonglass and Valyrian Steel imo.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Shipp:
      One thing that might factor into the end is the Night King and his bros being immune to fire (we’ve seen that twice now).The dragons may be able to destroy the undead horde, but they may not work well for killing the King.

      They are immune to regular fire. Valryian steel, which was forged in dragonfire, can easily kill them, so I assume dragonfire can kill them as well.

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    44. RBloodworth,

      Highly doubt that. Wasn’t that also the ending of “Looper”? Then again, he came up with the ending 20+ years ago and pop culture may have caught up with him since then. But Benioff has said the ending is “immensely satisfying” so I think he’d know if it had been done already.

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    45. Geralt of Rivia,

      See that’s where I don’t like this ice and fire being Jon.

      I mean when we speak about Jon being ice and fire ..he is the Union of starks and targs ..

      when speaking about individual powers the WW becomes ice and dany becomes fire ..

      Shouldnt it be called as bran as ice and dany as fire..

      Same goes for when speaking about magic vanishing from the westeros in the end so dany and her dragons should die along with WW but have we seen anyone say that starks and their magic along with direwolves all should die as well for that magic to be removed completely.

      But I agree that jon is a gateway for dany in finding a family which will get her jon arya and bran ..but with WW I don’t think so atleast I hope not .

        Quote  Reply

    46. Shipp:
      One thing that might factor into the end is the Night King and his bros being immune to fire (we’ve seen that twice now).The dragons may be able to destroy the undead horde, but they may not work well for killing the King.

      In the books,

      dragon fire is one of the three things that can kill an Other.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Btw confirmation from Sophie that Sansa is lying to Jon about LF because she wants all the power. I think we’re about to see some Stark unpleasantness. Damn you Sansa, when are you going to realize you’re AGAIN doing the dumb thing.

      She’s very blunt, very honest. It was very empowering. Why do you think she wouldn’t tell Jon Snow that she got the information from Littlefinger?

      She doesn’t tell Jon because — it’s difficult because she doesn’t have that Stark way about her anymore. She’s been broken down; she no longer feels like she can be completely honest with anyone, even her own family. Also she doesn’t want to tell Jon, I think, because she wants all the information and all the power in her court when it comes to Littlefinger. Because [with] Littlefinger she can kind of do whatever she wants with him now. He owes her big time and she wants the ball in her court.

      http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-sansa-stark-sophie-turner-20160523-snap-story.html

        Quote  Reply

    48. Nadia,

      Well, we all knew Sansa would be turning into a Littlefinger type of character, and that involves not always being a perfect being of selflessness.

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    49. Nadia,

      She wants she alone to deal with LF, not Jon or anyone else.

      I truly don’t see how you got to ”will have Stark unpleasantness”.

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    50. If the context is different, maybe Summer will survive! There is hope! (I never had much hope for Shaggydog and Rickon because of ‘shaggydog story’)

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    51. Nadia,

      I think her hiding these things from Jon will make Jon vulnerable against Littlefinger.

      Bran and Arya need to hurry up and come back.

      It’s good that she’s playing the game, but it’s a shame that she’s doing it against her family.

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    52. Not knocking Martin, I’ve read all of the books more than once but I feel like every statement about the books diverging should be accompanied by “if they are ever completed”. I am seriously worried we may not get an ending. Winds of Winter hopefully we get in the next year to eighteen months but how long for the next book, another 5-7 years. Pray for George’s health. At least the show is going to give us AN ENDING, if not THE ending.

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    53. Honestly, as someone who read the books before the series, I feel like I am getting the best of both worlds here. The show doesn’t ‘spoil’ the books for me, I’m still as anxious to read them as ever (which makes me a masochist, of course), and at the same time I get to see the world of ASOIF continue in the meantime which the wonderful actors and plot lines that I love, and the ones I dislike as well.

      Knowing (sort of) what would happen in the show from the books previously didn’t spoil the show for me at all. I had a few ‘Wtf? This doesn’t happen!’ moments, which I got over. Because you really couldn’t depend on it to be the same in all aspects, which was great. And the things that stayed pretty true….well let’s just say that Mountain vs Viper could not have punched me in the gut any harder if I hadn’t read it beforehand. I knew exactly what to expect, and I thought I was prepared, and yet there I was, gaping at the black screen of end credits like a fish out of water, completely gutted.

      I feel really lucky to have these 2 mediums to watch a great story unfold.

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    54. HelloThere,

      I think it’s become pretty clear based on filming spoilers that Sansa

      deliberately holds out the Vale troops from battle. If Jon knew they were coming or an option, there’s no way he starts the battle off so outnumbered. And she rides in with the Vale to save the day so that it’s HER victory and HER army. But basically, she lies her way into even sacrificing him to get Winterfell, because he could easily have died before she comes with the Vale.
      if it goes that way, Sansa is about to become the most hated character on GOT. No one really hates Cersei much anymore

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    55. Mihnea,

      Well because according to filming spoilers she DOESNT deal with LF

      she clearly goes to him and gets the Vale army on HER side. How is it dealing with him to ride into the battle WITH him to save Jon, and basically making it HER victory? She’s sacrificing Jon to take back Winterfell, I think it’s pretty clear.

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    56. Flayed Potatoes,

      She may make a mistake by doing this.

      But I, honestly, don’t see how she is doing it against her family….
      Her actions may harm Jon and herself, indirectly, but she isn’t trying to harm him on purpose…

      Sorry but I just can’t see how you reached that conclusion… I’m not trying to be mean or anything… but I simply don’t see it..

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    57. Tycho Nestoris,

      My guess is that as with much of the translation from book to screen, the screen version will be better, in comparison to other works of art in their respective mediums. In other words, GOT is a better show than ASOIAF is a book.

        Quote  Reply

    58. The spiral thing could be a symbol for eternal cycle of life, universe and everything. GRRM really likes history that repeats itself, we’ve already seen similar events happening again (with different results); power plays, deadly weddings, kinslaying, betrayals… and probably most of all different species/nations conquerer foreign lands and then collapsing upon themselves.

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    59. Flora Linden:
      Marlana,

      That’s awesome speculation. After Hodor, I now wonder if we might get a Twilight Zone/Planet of the Apes style last twist at the end, where the ancient fantasy saga we thought we were watching turns out to be an apocalyptic sci-fi thriller.

      I have long felt there is a sci-if underpinning to all the Story. By engaging readers’ and viewers’ attention to soap opera, dynastic saga, magic and fantasy, the author primes them to receive his underlying messages.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Nadia,

      It doesn’t matter is she deals with him or not in the end. It matters that this is what she thinks she’ll do.

      She isn’t trying to sacrifice Jon for goodness sake…..
      She may make a mistake, true, but she isn’t trying to get him out of the picture.
      Everything points the contrary to me…

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    61. Nadia,

      I think you’re worrying too much about this. That quote you posted is about Sansa’s feelings regarding Littlefinger, not Jon.

      Also she doesn’t want to tell Jon, I think, because she wants all the information and all the power in her court when it comes to Littlefinger. Because [with] Littlefinger she can kind of do whatever she wants with him now. He owes her big time and she wants the ball in her court.

      And keep in mind this could be Sophie PR trolling – Aiden Gillen is terrific at that when talking about Littlefinger, and the whole “Is Jon Snow” dead meme recently.

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    62. Nadia,

      If thats how it is going to happen she sure will become the most hated character ..

      But I doubt its happening like that we should wait and see..

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    63. Northerner:
      The spiral thing could be a symbol for eternal cycle of life, universe and everything.

      Yes, and medieval concept of history was not linear, but cyclic and mayhaps spiral.

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    64. Mihnea:

      It doesn’t matter is she deals with him or not in the end.

      She isn’t trying to sacrifice Jon for goodness sake…..

      No not Jon but by holding off she is putting him in danger more than he would have been if he started the battle with the Vale army by his side.

      Sansa wants Ramsey to destroy Jon´s army so at the end when she comes in to save the day she would have the power.

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    65. Flora Linden,

      Exactly… She clearly means she wants the entire power when LF is concerned.

      She wants to deal with him, she wants to have the power against him.
      Not Jon or anyone else.. Is it a mistake she makes because she lets her feeling cloud her mind? Sure, could be.

      But I don’t see how you get from this to ”she is sacrificing Jon”..

        Quote  Reply

    66. Mihnea,

      Um, what don’t you see, seriously?

      She lies to Jon about LF and doesn’t tell him about the Vale troops.

      And then

      Jon goes into battle totally outnumbered and he’s losing the battle, and then she rides in WITH LF and the Vale, the army loyal only to her, to win the battle. So she’s ok with taking the chance that Jon dies to win the battle herself, and prove to the North that she’s the one who won?
      and how the hell is she “dealing” with LF if she’s working WITH him, taking up his offer of an army? She’s obviously doing this to “win” herself, even if ruling Winterfell is not what Jon wants.

        Quote  Reply

    67. Mihnea,

      OF COURSE she’s sacrificing Jon.

      What the hell else could going into battle outnumbered when she knows that the Vale could actually be there for him?

      And then bringing them in, her personal army, HERSELF.

      it fits with everything Sophie has said about her arc.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Mihnea,

      I can see a scenario where Littlefinger comes to Jon after the battle and tells him about the secret meeting in Mole’s Town and Sansa rejecting the army.

      If Rickon dies at the battle, Jon will be devastated because he’ll feel they could have avoided it by accepting the Vale army sooner. Not to mention Jon would have lost most if not all of his own army before the Vale intervenes, so many lives would have been spared for the fight against the WW.

      We don’t know what Sansa told (or didn’t tell) Jon about Littlefinger, so Jon won’t be prepared to deal with him. We don’t know if he’s aware that LF gave her to Ramsay.

      LF is a slimy one!

        Quote  Reply

    69. Nadia,

      Ok…. Will see. I don’t like Sansa debates….

      But from all the information we know, I got the exact opposite feeling. As I said, filming stuff included.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Kit Hairyton,

      “what he can give her” ie an army? So she wants sole control of an army that could be there to help Jon’s army in a war she pushed him into? Right, that sounds totally trustworthy.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Nadia,

      She doesn’t want LF help because she doesn’t like him and what he did. She wants to retake WF without him. She is fooling herself though…

      Then she realizes she needs LF and needs the Vale army..

        Quote  Reply

    72. Ohh god, will have these Sansa debates for weeks…
      Hope they make things clear quickly..
      But they seamed very clear to me…..

        Quote  Reply

    73. Mihnea,

      I’m not trying to be rude, I’m just wondering how you got the opposite impression WITH filming spoilers? I’m curious to hear your side, because as I said I hate this interpretation and would much rather think that Sansa isn’t so selfish as to crave winning over sacrificing the only family she knows.

      but if Jon knew there was a Vale army ready to fight with him if Sansa let it, why on earth would he start a battle that causes the death of so many of his army without the Vale? She obviously doesn’t tell him, and there’s only one reason for her willing to risk lives, and it’s so that she commands the winning army

        Quote  Reply

    74. Mihnea,

      She played right into LF’s hand when she brought up the Tully army. LF is 10 steps ahead of her. She’ll find out the hard way, I guess…

        Quote  Reply

    75. Mihnea,

      It seems to me Sansa has confidence in her ability to play the game. And sees Jon as a “field general”. She sees herself as the one moving the chess pieces. Maybe even protecting Jon from himself.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Flayed Potatoes,

      I agree on everything. And agree there could be quite a bit of conflict on Sansa’s refusal of the army, especially if the casualties are high…

      But I still can’t see how people got from this that she betrays Jon…..

        Quote  Reply

    77. Kit Hairyton,

      You literally said “she wants sole control of LF and what he can give her” = meaning she wants sole control of the Vale army. And yet somehow you think that’s not betraying Jon when he’s going into battle not knowing there’s a massive army that could help him win?

        Quote  Reply

    78. Nadia,

      Yes. She will bring the army preaty late, because she will still believe she and Jon can do this without LF, but she then realizes they will loose.
      Then comes the Vale army.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Mihnea,

      it’s not betraying Jon to lie about a huge army that could help him win and sending him into battle starting it without it?

      and then at the end, she rides in WITH LF, so she’s not only the winner but she wins because of LF, so she’s not dealing with him at all, she’s tying herself to him? What a genius she is.

        Quote  Reply

    80. My opinion is that yes LF will screw things up between Jon and Sansa this season and that sucks,but she will realize it next season and kill him at winterfell.Also let’s be honest Jon isn’t going to die cause of littlefinger so it’s going to be okay in the end

        Quote  Reply

    81. Mihnea,

      Lying to Jon about a massive army that she knows IS LOYAL TO HER and then

      bringing that army into battle behind her WITH LF

      is like the definition of betrayal.

      Sophie has said it in multiple interviews, that she’s going to do things her way and not let Jon in on everything, that she’s not operating from Stark loyalty either. I’m not sure how you see that as NOT a betrayal when you’re going to war.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Nadia,

      Or maybe …

      Sansa takes a look at the Bolton / Karstark / Umber force, realizes how badly Jon’s group is outnumbered, so she decides to go to the Vale army and seizes control of them from Littlefinger. She doesn’t tell Jon because she wants to deal with Littlefinger on her own.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Nadia,

      I never said she is smart..

      She let’s her pride get into the way when she first refuses LF… And is naive enough to think they can win alone.

      Then she swallows her pride and asks LF for help. The battle could already have started and she sees things go south

      I don’t remember this thing.

      can you give me a link as to were we know she RIDES into battle with LF?

      Or..

      they are loosing and she doesn’t ask for help. But LF comes and saves the day either way

        Quote  Reply

    84. Mihnea:
      Nadia,

      Yes. She will bring the army preaty late, because she will still believe she and Jon can do this without LF, but she then realizes they will loose.
      Then comes the Vale army.

      Mihnea its not like the Vale army will be 5 minutes riding from the WInterfell battlefeild by random chances Sansa coud at any time decide to ask for their help.

      Army movement at a large size takes days and weeks.

      My point being it not a whim of the moment it is a PLAN.

      A plan she witheld from Jon and it will get Jons army slaughterd.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Mihnea:
      Nadia,

      It doesn’t matter is she deals with him or not in the end. It matters that this is what she thinks she’ll do.

      She isn’t trying to sacrifice Jon for goodness sake…..
      She may make a mistake, true, but she isn’t trying to get him out of the picture.
      Everything points the contrary to me…

      I’m with Mihnea here. It’s obvious to me as well.

        Quote  Reply

    86. If Sansa accepted LF’s army, you all would be shitting all over her for being naive when LF is clearly plotting some shit bla bla…

      just let the story go before jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      It’s not going to take weeks… It will take a 5-8 minute scene before the battle and during it.

      If this is how it will happen

      and LF doesn’t just come and saves the day by himself. this has a very strong chance to happen in my opinion.

        Quote  Reply

    88. HelloThere,

      She is a bit naive in this scenario too, but there is nothing wrong with that.
      She refuses LF out of pride mostly and dislike.

      bbut in the end when she sees they are loosing, she will swollow her pride.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Brandon:
      Not knocking Martin, I’ve read all of the books more than once but I feel like every statement about the books diverging should be accompanied by “if they are ever completed”. I am seriously worried we may not get an ending. Winds of Winter hopefully we get in the next year to eighteen months but how long for the next book, another 5-7 years. Pray for George’s health. At least the show is going to give us AN ENDING, if not THE ending.

      I worry about this too; the “new” chapter he posted on his site is actually one he’s been reading at conventions since before the publication of A Dance with Dragons, so it’s not really new. At the glacial pace he’s developed, I worry about Winds of Winter being published and at the end of that book maybe Stannis still being alive, Tyrion still not having met Danny, Danny still being stuck on Essos, and Bran still stuck on the Tree (yea, ’cause if “Hold the Door” is really from the books, then Bran is then obviously leaving the Tree at some point.)

        Quote  Reply

    90. Nadia,
      I think that Sansa is beginning to realise that, if Jon commands the winning army, Jon will be Lord of Winterfell after the battle. If Littlefinger does, Jon may be the titular Lord, but Littlefinger will have a lot of the power and the influence. She doesn’t want Littlefinger, but she doesn’t really fully want Jon, either, because she’s beginning to realise that the barbaric customs of the North mean that after the battle, her influence will be much diminished – Jon may press her to marry again, or something. So, she’s probably a bit torn.

      Also, from her point of view, the Vale army (if it exists, which she does not 100% know, either) is sitting at Moat Cailin and not going anywhere.

        Quote  Reply

    91. I saw some of the reviews asking the big question about Others – what do they want, really? At the moment, the Night’s King is interested in killing men, raising the dead, kill more men, and so on. He also makes more Others/Whitewalkers by touching babies. But what do they do once they conquer the planet? Their armies have no mind on their own, the Others seem to do nothing except killing and resurrecting. It will be very dull if that was it.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Shipp,

      that would actually be quite important in the final battle, if dragons can take of weights then human can focus on WW and NK which will be far easier if they dont have to worry about infinite zombie army

        Quote  Reply

    93. Mihnea,

      So Jon isn’t going to see it is a betrayal that she knew, let people get slaughtered, and then goes “oops my mistake.” Right, ok.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Mihnea,

      So is Nadia trolling us or what’s going on ? Did I miss something ? Why on Earth do people think she is willing to sacrifice Jon ? What filming spoilers indicate this ?

        Quote  Reply

    95. Markus Stark,

      Why would I be trolling? Read Sophie’s comments about not being honest with Jon and Davos, then filming spoilers –

      filming spoilers that say Jon’s army is really overmatched, that they start to get slaughtered and then Sansa and LF ride in with the Vale army. Why would Jon start a battle he knows he’ll be hugely overmatched in if he knew there was the possibility of a Vale army? He obviously doesn’t know about it, because Sansa doesn’t tell him, but she arrives to the battle WITH LF. She’s not working against LF, she’s coming to battle WITH HIM.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Sansa is not going to betray Jon.

      Sansa is not going to betray Jon.

      Sansa is not going to betray Jon.

      Sansa is not going to betray Jon. Repeat ad nauseum.

      I cannot fathom why people think this is not an absolute truth. They are family. Sansa obviously lied about the Blackfish information because she was not comfortable sharing that it was still coming from Littlefinger. Jon knows what’s happened to Sansa in the intervening years; it’s obvious the world knows Tyrion married Sansa (hence the characters in the play in Braavos), and Jon knows Ramsay did horrific things to his sister at Winterfell. It’s very hard to believe she would have left out the important detail about it all being Littlefinger’s fault.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Mihnea:
      Markus Stark,

      Speculation, based on conjuncture.

      It’s speculation, but it’s not based on conjecture, it’s based on a reddit post; of course what credibility to assign to that post is an open question…

        Quote  Reply

    98. Mihnea,

      I think it’s because Jon died and was resurrected with a great fear for death. Sansa is now asking him to risk his second life to take back Winterfell. Jon was killed by his own brothers and that messed him up terribly. Then his only family member (that he knows of) comes back to ask for his protection and because of her he finally feels like he has a sense of purpose. Jon is being completely honest with Sansa despite his new trust issues, so that’s probably going to mess him up more if he finds out she’s lying from LF of all people. Who knows how LF will twist and phrase things….

      I guess we’ll have to see just how quickly Brienne can send them news from the Riverlands. And we’ll also have to see if she tells Jon about the Vale army before the battle (and he asks her to go get them) and if she waits too long to intervene and help him. Maybe she’ll pull a Theon at the Kingsmoot during their visit to the Northern houses and surprise us all lol

      Either way: LF is scum.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Nadia:
      Mihnea,

      So Jon isn’t going to see it is a betrayal that she knew, let people get slaughtered, and then goes “oops my mistake.” Right, ok.

      If what I described is what happened, I imagine that Jon Snow would probably be extremely pissed off at Sansa for withholding knowledge of the Vale army from him.

      Filming spoilers indicates that there’s a scene where:

      Jon Snow, Sansa, Littlefinger, and Ramsay have a meeting in Winterfell. At some point Wun Wun smashes through the gates. I can see this as a scene where Jon Snow reads Sansa the riot act for withholding this information from him, which led to all the unnecessary deaths of on Jon Snow’s army’s side.

      Would this mean that Sansa deliberately betrayed Jon Snow? No, but her hubris and her pride in choosing to not accept LF’s help and the Vale Army, then not telling Jon Snow about this army would definitely feel like a betrayal to Jon Snow.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Cameryn,

      Is lying to someone about to lead an army into battle with questionable odds about the potential for a large army (Vale) that would fight for you – is that not a betrayal?

      Betrayal doesn’t mean you stab someone in the heart. It means you lie to them and you withhold information that puts their lives at risk because YOU want control.

      If you think Jon isn’t going to see it as a betrayal that she lied to him about the Vale when he finds out, you’re kidding yourself.

        Quote  Reply

    101. I don’t think she wants to harm jon but he is going to so pissed and understandably so when

      his army gets slaughtered in the battle only because she didn’t tell him about the vale army since the beginning

        Quote  Reply

    102. George,

      But is in a sense.

      We know

      that she is coming with LF but that doesn’t mean it’s confirmed she’ll betray Jon. She chose and most likely, honestly belies this, but it isn’t confirmed. I see things completely different by looking at the same thing. So we are both speculating…but nothing is confirmed.

      s

        Quote  Reply

    103. Mihnea,

      Nope, you aren’t alone. I don’t see her being power hungry or betraying Jon either. I think she hasn’t told Jon about LF because she knows that Jon would probably kill LF. And there goes any chance of using the Vale army against the Bolton forces when she needs them because we all know how much Robyn loves LF.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Cameryn,

      I agree. It makes sense to not tell him that she was meeting with the man who bet eyes their father and sold her to their family’s enemies. I also so the suggestion that Sansa didn’t tell Jon because she didn’t want to justify sending away the Vale army. I personally see the former as more likely.

      I wonder what LF will do w his troops in the meantime. And who he is meeting in the snow and when.

        Quote  Reply

    105. dragonbringer: dragon

      I have wondered the same – if the obsidian inside is what giving him power (to freeze fire and all), maybe killing the Night’s King will do? And no one has tried swinging dragonglass or valyrian steel at the Night’s King, so maybe he is immune to all these. He is the only Whitewalker who is able to make other Whitewalkers (cue the Oathkeeper episode finale with the baby and normal whitewalker). And this might be where we need a hero/PTWP/AzorAhai with special powers. Because the current threat can be dealt with using organized armies, obsidian weapons, fire and dragons. (Of course Westeros has none of these prepared, but if they do, it is a war they can win. Once they have dragons).

        Quote  Reply

    106. Mihnea:
      George,

      Spoiler….or can we post book stuff without the tags, because it’s a sullied post?

      That’s what I thought.

      Although, Cersei being dead before the end is more like informed speculation and not strictly a spoiler, since obviously we’re years away from actually having an actual book ending, if we ever get it. And the “Hold the Door” stuff wouldn’t really be a spoiler since D&D themselves told in the Inside the Episode that George told them that’s from the books…

        Quote  Reply

    107. HelloThere:
      If Sansa accepted LF’s army, you all would be shitting all over her for being naive when LF is clearly plotting some shit bla bla…

      If she told Jon about Littlefinger and his offer ….

      Jon: Who is LittleFinger?

      Sansa: Mom´s old friend former member of small council and the master of coin, he once dueled for her hand but lost to Brandon who spared only becouse my mom begged him to do it.

      Jon: WTF?

      Sansa: And yea he married Lysa Arryn who like died 2 days after that so he now has some kind of control over the Vale aside from being made Lord of Harrenhall…

      Jon: Who made him Lord of Harenhall?

      Sansa: Well, Joffrey …

      Jon: WTF???? Why?

      Sansa: He helped form Lannister Tyrell alliance …

      Jon: The one who defeated Stannis, who father said was the rightfull heir?

      Sansa: Yea!

      Jon: And which in the end brought to Lannister dominance ending in Robbs death?

      Sansa: Yep! Not only that but he kinda held a kinfe to fathers throat when Joffrey stopped fathers coup.

      Jon: WTF?

      Sansa: Yea he saved me and married me to Ramsey so when Stannis beat the Boltons i would be wardeness of the north!

      Jon: The same Stannis he screwed over by forming the Lannister-Tyrell alliance?

      Sansa: Yep!

      Jon: This backstabbing traitor if offering us help?

      Sansa: Yes!

      Jon: You are not at all worried he will betray us like he screws everyone over?

      Sansa: No … he kissed me a couple of times …

      Jon: “Fu*k this im going to hit the beach in Dorne and wait for the end of the wold there”

        Quote  Reply

    108. Josh L,

      Why are you all expecting him to want the Vale army? The old Jon is so honorable, it could just as easily be that he wants LF’s head.

      And I just want to add I find the idea that Sansa wants the Riverrun army because they are going to “hate” Jon bcuz Catlin did a bit of a stretch. We don’t know how Blackfish feels about the bastard of WF. He seems like a more practical man to me than that.

        Quote  Reply

    109. ArgonathofBraavos,

      much of the translation from book to screen, the screen version will be better

      Say what? Most adaptations from book to screen are considered inferior if not horrible. See Count of Monte Cristo, The DaVinci Code, His Dark Materials, The Hobbit. According Wimsey Anna Karina is pretty great novel and terrible movie. I am sure there are better examples I am forgetting.

      Jurassic Park, Fight Club, Silence of the Lambs. These are good movies and books. They may be better movies than their sources are books but it’s debatable.

      TV is very young (maybe this is why books are often considered superior to film adaptations). GoT is an all time great show. Still, saying GoT is a better show than ASOIAF is a book is like calling Tyrion the nicest Lannister. It’s an empty compliment.

      Apologies in I misunderstood your point.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Demon Monkey: I agree. It makes sense to not tell him that she was meeting with the man who bet eyes their father and sold her to their family’s enemies.

      1) Sansa (and Jon Snow) doesn’t know that Littlefinger betrayed Ned. This isn’t public knowledge. Only a few people know this (Cersei and the few Kingsguards who were at the scene and are still alive today). Everybody else is dead. Though I imagine that at some point, the truth will finally come out, and then all of Littlefinger’s scheming will finally catch up with him.

      2) Littlefinger didn’t sell Sansa to her enemies. Sansa willingly went to the Boltons, thinking she could play them (to be fair, it’s mainly because of Littlefinger’s “pep talk” that led Sansa to think she could do so).

        Quote  Reply

    111. Mihnea,

      Sophie has said in multiple interviews that she wants control. So exactly what are you disagreeing with me about

      1) that her lies are going to cost Jon
      2) that he will see her lies as a betrayal
      3) that Sophie said Sansa wants more control and wants to deal with things on her own terms

      I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to believe that Sansa and Jon aren’t going to be on the same page or best friends, but this is Game of Thrones. You think it’s going to be lovely and happy between them and that Jon and Sansa have the same end goal?

        Quote  Reply

    112. I don’t want this to be true because I want sansa and jon to work together and win this for the starks. but I think Nadia and co have a point and I can see it happening that way. sansa was very trusting for too long (in fact many people on this very board complained about it). Now she is taking some agency, she is making decisions and perhaps finds a way to trust herself to take control. That would be marvelous, but also rather sad, for Jon and all those who end up dying because of this.

      Interesting too because if that does happen, it just adds up to another stark decision that doesn’t go well. See Bran and WW, Robb marring Talisa, Catelyn releasing Jamie, Ned going to Winterfell………

        Quote  Reply

    113. Demon Monkey,

      Um, Sansa doesn’t know LF betrayed Ned. Why on earth would she run away with him and agree to marry Ramsay if she knew that? that’s the whole point. And if she doesn’t know LF betrayed Ned, Jon sure as hell does not know. So why would she be afraid of him knowing she met LF?

        Quote  Reply

    114. Nadia,

      Your interpretation of filming information is somewhat interesting. My biggest reason for thinking Sansa won’t betray Jon is that:

      You can clearly see three people on horses observing Battle of Bastards from the distance, with no Vale forces in sight. Some people speculated they were White Walkers. I think the most accredited theory is that these three people are Sansa, Davos and Melisande, which is logical, since none of them is a Warrior, but would be involved.

      So, Sansa is there, from them beginning of the battle, and definitely not riding in with Vale Forces. [/ spoiler]

      And I truly marvel on how this turned into a discussion about Sansa in a short time I was doing other things and contemplating “The Big Twist” in the end. It certainly won’t be “Pop Culture 101” since it surpriced D&D, who were able to arrive to the right conclusion on Jon Snow’s mother by themselves.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Tycho Nestoris,

      This is way to subjective.

      I like books and movies/TV for very different reasons.
      But I always find myself enjoying the screen adaptation better much more often.

      The actors, camera work, music, most often a more focused story…. I’m much more of a visual person.

      I think it’s unfair to say all adaptations are inferior, in the end it comes down to the persons tastes.

      I for one read Monte Cristo and find myself enjoying the movie much better.

        Quote  Reply

    116. dragonbringer:
      Nadia,

      If thats how it is going to happen she sure will become the most hated character ..

      But I doubt its happening like that we should wait and see..

      If she betrays jon it will be a soft betrayal. Like she wanting to have na army of hers but she would still follow jon. The thing is that littlefinger will obviously try to turn them agains each other and if sansa is planing something behind the scenes he will use that to separate them.

      And finally can anyone imagine sansa riding with vale’s army to save the day like lotr? pff not going to happen… The most that can happen is jon start attacking winterfell and sending sansa to call vale’s army and telling them where to attack while he distracts ramsays’ army…

        Quote  Reply

    117. stepping away from the sansa war for a moment, i have a question and a speculation.
      question:
      couldn’t bran write a note – for example ‘jon, your real mom and dad are….’ or ‘in order to defeat the WW do this’ or ‘ramsey’s forces are X amount strong and are located at X marks the spot’, well you get the idea. then warg into a raven and take the note to jon or who ever needs it? too simple a plan? ok. if there is anyone who can explain why that can’t happen please feel free.

      speculation:
      yara and theon have stolen all those boats. let’s assume they have decided to go get the dragon queen on their side before their uncle does. sailing from mereen to westeros, the easiest, and first available, land fall in westeros would be dorne. maybe that would bring the SS back into the show and actually give them a storyline that just might (not necessarily, but might) be worth watching as they would probably join with dany.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Jenny:
      My opinion is that yes LF will screw things up between Jon and Sansa this season and that sucks,but she will realize it next season and kill him at winterfell.Also let’s be honest Jon isn’t going to die cause of littlefinger so it’s going to be okay in the end

      LF will lose eventually. He has to. For all his planning and scheming, he has failed to look at the bigger picture, and part of it is the future arrival of Bran and Dany.

      I can’t wait to see him fall apart!!

        Quote  Reply

    119. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but I have a question.

      If I remember correctly in both the show and books the wall is somehow magical and built to keep the white walkers out. Is it possible the Bran is about to make an even bigger mistake by going there with Meera? If so could that mark on his arm allow the Nights King to breach the wall in the same way?

      I can’t see where else they could be heading right now and also Bran seems most likely to be the one who lets Jon know his real origins.

        Quote  Reply

    120. aabe: I have wondered the same – if the obsidian inside is what giving him power (to freeze fire and all), maybe killing the Night’s King will do? And no one has tried swinging dragonglass or valyrian steel at the Night’s King, so maybe he is immune to all these. He is the only Whitewalker who is able to make other Whitewalkers (cue the Oathkeeper episode finale with the baby and normal whitewalker). And this might be where we need a hero/PTWP/AzorAhai with special powers. Because the current threat can be dealt with using organized armies, obsidian weapons, fire and dragons. (Of course Westeros has none of these prepared, but if they do, it is a war they can win. Once they have dragons).

      With the show mitology i would prefer if the night’s king can only be killed qith a flaming DAWN!
      We know it is a unique sword and if because of his ressurection and heritage jon can put a sword on fire (without his blood or at least very little blood) and only Dawn can stand the flames would be perfect.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Mihnea,

      I think it’s unfair to say all adaptations are inferior, in the end it comes down to the persons tastes.

      Agreed. This is the point I was trying to make (perhaps poorly). Comparing GoT’s TV rank (for lack of a better word) with ASOIAF’s book rank is fun but pointless.

      OT: I can’t believe you enjoy the Count of Monte Cristo movie more than the book! My bias has blinded me to alternate views here. That book is sooooo good. Are there other books you prefer to their film adaptations?

        Quote  Reply

    122. Flayed Potatoes: LF will lose eventually. He has to. For all his planning and scheming, he has failed to look at the bigger picture, and part of it is the future arrival of Bran and Dany.

      I can’t wait to see him fall apart!!

      Yeah he will fall no doubt about it and I do believe Sansa will be his undoing.But i don’t think he is quite done yet and we must suffer his ass ’till next season lol

        Quote  Reply

    123. Nadia,

      But none of this means she is intentionally betraying him. You’re assuming a whole lot. Not sure how well you remember episode 5 but at this point she has refused the Vale army. So there isn’t any plan to bring them in at this point. How do we know she doesn’t simply change her mind later ? How do we know Jon doesn’t find out about the Vale army and send Sansa to get them ? How do you Jon engages Ramsay’s host and not the other way around ? I’m not saying that’s what is going to happen, I’m saying we have no idea what will happen or why it will happen.

      And how do you Jon will want the Vale army if/when he finds out about it ?
      The fact is we simply don’t know how Sansa’s arrival with the Vale forces will play out, and we don’t know precisely what her intentions are with respect to Jon. There is no reason to assume she doesn’t change her mind about what to do. There is no reason to assume she has no problem sacrificing Jon. At this point she is hoping to win WITH Jon and WITHOUT Littlefinger. She says as much to Littlefinger in episode 5. She has refused the Vale army. She wants to win without them. That doesn’t seem like a betrayal of Jon, since she currently is not planning on reaching out to Littlefinger. Like I said, we don’t know enough.
      Chill out.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Mihnea

      I like books and movies/TV for very different reasons.
      But I always find myself enjoying the screen adaptation better much more often.

      Its rare that I do; usually screen adaptations make a major change, often at the ending, that ruins the whole story. Or takes the romantic part of a story and leaves out the rest (thinking in particular of Wicked, what Broadway did to it, dif then from tv but still visual adaptation) Sometimes tho, adaptations take the best part of the story and present it very well; Wold Hall, Pride and Prejudice (1995 mini series) and Dune (mini series) are great examples. With both book and adaptation, I could enjoy the story unfold. Then there are the adaptations that are actually better – Cider House Rules is one. I can’t say GOT is another; pity that George missed the boat and didn’t finishe the books earlier,then perhaps it would be clearer. But I do agree with you – I like books and visual adaptations for different reasons, and wouldn’t want to be without eather.

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    125. Flayed Potatoes: LF will lose eventually. He has to. For all his planning and scheming, he has failed to look at the bigger picture, and part of it is the future arrival of Bran and Dany.

      You’re right. LF is going to eventually lose. The way I see it, there are a few possibilities:

      1) Brienne runs into a certain Gravedigger, and brings him back with her to Sansa. The Gravedigger sees Sansa and Littlefinger together and blurts out, “what da fuq are you doing with that man who betrayed your father?!?” The jig is up, and LF is killed.

      2) Bran goes back to the scene of Ned’s betrayal via a green sight, and somehow communicates this information to Jon / Sansa. They kill LF.

      3) Dany, with Varys accompanying her, arrives to Westeros. They run into LF, and Varys tells Dany “Khalessi, whatever you do, do NOT trust him!” LF becomes some tasty dragon snack.

      4) Chaos is a ladder. LF has sleazed, manipulated, and lied his way all the way to the Iron Throne! Unfortunately, the Night’s King is right there waiting for him. LF becomes a human Popsicle.

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    126. I’d love it if Bran rolled up in Winterfell and gave everyone a wiki summary of all the seasons of GoT. I’ll die laughing if the big twist is that Bran is the one who exposes LF for betraying Ned. How would anyone be able to find out about this otherwise? Bye LF…

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    127. Anthony,

      That has been the speculation these days.It certainly could happen and it’s been forshadowed that the wall will fall so that could end up actually happening

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    128. Jaynee D.,

      if there is anyone who can explain why that can’t happen please feel free.

      Because then there wouldn’t be the story. Its not the happy ending that matters. Its how the ending happens

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    129. Hoyti Von Totiy,

      While reading that (and LOLing my arse off whilst doing so), I couldn’t help but hear Sansa’s lines in Ann-Margret’s kittenish voice from “Bye Bye Birdie.”

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    130. dragonbringer,

      I have began to think of parallels between Dany and Persephone (sp) from Greek Mythology. You know the Goddess of spring who is kidnapped by Hades and then as a deal is released for 6 months (spring and summer), but has to return to Hades and the underworld for 6 months (fall and WINTER). Remember the Knights king originally showed up after falling in love with a Whiter haired pale skinned blue eyed woman (not a stretch to think Targarian. Coincidence that the White Walkers make their return when Danny is coming along with her Dragons. Perhaps that comet was a sign to the WW as well. ??

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    131. Josh L: You’re right.LF is going to eventually lose.The way I see it, there are a few possibilities:

      1) Brienne runs into a certain Gravedigger, and brings him back with her to Sansa.The Gravedigger sees Sansa and Littlefinger together and blurts out, “what da fuq are you doing with that man who betrayed your father?!?”The jig is up, and LF is killed.

      2) Bran goes back to the scene of Ned’s betrayal via a green sight, and somehow communicates this information to Jon / Sansa. They kill LF.

      3) Dany, with Varys accompanying her, arrives to Westeros.They run into LF, and Varys tells Dany “Khalessi, whatever you do, do NOT trust him!”LF becomes some tasty dragon snack.

      4) Chaos is a ladder.LF has sleazed, manipulated, and lied his way all the way to the Iron Throne!Unfortunately, the Night’s King is right there waiting for him.LF becomes a human Popsicle.

      I completly believe in option number 1 or that after littlefinger tries one of his schemes with sansa again she will kill him. I can totally imagine him exposing sansa’s lies to jon, jon sending sansa away somewhere, sansa calling littlefinger saying she wants his help to take over the north, sansa killing littlefinger for what he has done, sansa trying to find a way to win jon’s trust next season.

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    132. Jenny,

      Yeah, I don’t see that cockroach dying this season. He’ll intervene while Jon tries to consolidate the North or something and try to mess things up.

      Josh L,

      I love the Sandor theory. I’ll happily give up Cleganebowl if it means he gets to destroy LF tbh.

      What scares me is that Bran is going to come with R+L=J as well and LF will try to use that to his advantage.

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    133. ash,

      The way I see it …

      aGoT > GoT S1
      aCoK > GoT S2
      aSoS = GoT S3/S4
      aFfC/aDwD < S5
      tWoW < S6 … merely because S6 actually exists!

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    134. The Big Twist in the end could be many things. But since there will be only about 18 hours of the show left, and Daenerys is still stuck in the middle of Essos, I’m beginning to think she won’t arrive to Westeros in time to confront The Others/White Walkers. Rather, she will go to Asshai, and there will be some sort of a parallel battle of Ice and Fire.

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    135. Connor,

      I agree with what someone else had said…that Bran is now marked so when he passes back through the wall, the magic keeping them away will be gone.

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    136. Flayed Potatoes:
      Jenny,

      Yeah, I don’t see that cockroach dying this season. He’ll intervene while Jon tries to consolidate the North or something and try to mess things up.

      Josh L,

      I love the Sandor theory. I’ll happily give up Cleganebowl if it means he gets to destroy LF tbh.

      What scares me is that Bran is going to come with R+L=J as well and LF will try to use that to his advantage.

      You think LF will use R+L=J and the lack of leadership in the south to unite the 7 kingdoms under jon and him in some way? It is possible, but would be so much satisfying to see him be gutted somewhere…

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    137. dvc,

      I have no idea tbh. I just hope he dies before that happens. A part of me would like to see his reaction when he realizes he was outsmarted by Ned Stark of all people, but I also want him to die before he does anything with the information.

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    138. Nadia,

      I don’t think that Sansa will intentionally betray Jon. It could very well and likely will end up with she and LF coming to the rescue at the 11th hour. The problem with Sansa has always been naiveté and ignorance. She believes now that she has one over on LF. She does not. However, she is attempting to play the game, will likely believe that she is acting for the best, and fuck up at some point which may very well cost others.

      I don’t believe she intentionally betrayed Ned to Cersei either, yet she cost him dearly with her visions of castles in the sky slipping away.

      LF will likely always have a hold on her. Remember, terrible as her experiences have been, she also must remember that he has saved her life. Saved her from King’s Landing after Joffrey’s poisoning (what do you think would have happened to her if she was put on trial with Tyrion?) Saved her from Lysa throwing her out the Moon Door. I highly doubt LF has ever done anything that wouldn’t benefit himself, and indeed most of these situations came about while his plans were in place, but the fact remains that he has that hold. If she were to tell Jon that he killed Lysa, he could easily counter with ‘Yes, because she tried to kill you.’ She defended him with the Lords of the Vale. She lied for him.

      Sansa is not innocent and she remains selfish, like many, but I think it’s more of a matter of that she Just. Doesn’t. Get. It. She wants control, but she doesn’t know how to be in control. She can try to manipulate, but she is far outmatched in that arena.

      Sansa won’t consciously want to hurt those close to her, but she very likely will all the same. She may very well outlive them all, but at the cost of those fighting for her. Jon won’t die due to her misguided plans however, I doubt it very much.

      I had held a little hope that at least one of the Stark kids would get through the story without having to turn (or attempt to turn) manipulative a la Cersei, or with magic, or vengeance like….about 100 others. But I guess that just isn’t interesting. Or perhaps that’ll just be Rickon.

      Sansa isn’t stupid. She just isn’t a critical thinker, a strategic mastermind, or a good reader of others. That’s not her fault, but it puts her in a dangerous place. I have a bad feeling for what that will mean for her in the long term. How I wish Brienne would stay with her!

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    139. Flayed Potatoes: I love the Sandor theory. I’ll happily give up Cleganebowl if it means he gets to destroy LF tbh.

      While I love the idea of CleganeBowl (GET HYPE!), I cannot see how it happens. Ser Robert Strong (in the books) seems to be considerably stronger than the Mountain was … and the Mountain was already really freaking inhumanely strong. The Gravedigger is wounded (he had a limp in the novels) and recovering. A battle between those two would be a slaughter. I cannot see the Faith sending forth a wounded Gravedigger to fight Ser Robert Strong. I’m also fairly certain that Cersei will win her Trial by Combat … she has to burn down King’s Landing, and there’s her upcoming date with the Valongar, after all.

      In addition, I’m pretty sure that Cersei’s Trail by Combat is happening late this season, and that the Gravedigger’s role this season is limited to a cameo.

      I think Cersei’s Trail is going to be a 7-on-1 affair, with FrankenMountain against 7 sparrows (including Lancel). FrankenMountain will easily slaughter everybody, thereby “proving” Cersei’s innocence. This trial will probably somehow result in Tommen’s death (FrankenMountain has taken an oath to kill all of Cersei’s enemies, and if Tommen converts to High Sparrow’s faith, FM will see Tommen as Cersei’s enemy), which will drive Cersei insane and lead to her S7 storyline.

      I think the Sand Snakes are going to end up being the ones who kill FrankenMountain (and they’ll die in the process) to get revenge for their father’s death.

      As for the Gravedigger … I think after Brienne is done with her Riverrun plot, and Red Wedding 2.0 is dealt with, Brienne will pick him up on her way back to see Sansa. Then we’ll have SanSan!

      CleganeBowl, unfortunately, is cancelled (END HYPE!) … except in the heart of fanfic writers everywhere.

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    140. Since the Hodor thing was one of the holy shit moments GRRM told D&D about, I figure I’ll put this here:

      So, I’ve been thinking about the whole Hodor thing.
      When Bran wargs adult Hodor in the cave, while Bran is still in his vision, Young Hodor is not warged, as his eyes remain normal.
      It isn’t until we start to hear Meera’s voice calling to adult Hodor that Young Hodor starts to be affected.
      At that point, his eyes go white and he start convulsing.
      Now, there are two times eyes go white: when someone is warging/being warged and when someone is seeing.
      When Joejn would have his visions, not only would his eyes go white, he would go into convulsions, just like Young Hodor did.
      So, my thought/question is, is part of what happened a result of Young Hodor being able to see, like Jojen was able to see?

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    141. Nadia,

      Mihnea,

      Ok guys….

      I really hope this ain’t the case as I was so happy to see Jon and Sansa reunited the last thing I want is a crack in the Stark family. 🙂

      Perhaps it goes like this:

      Sansa’s already made it clear to LF that she doesn’t need him or the Vale and doesn’t want his help. And I get the feeling she genuinely thinks she doesn’t need him. But as the battle starts, she realises that they can’t win after all and she summons the Vale at the 11th hour (or they arrive themselves) not to give HER the victory but to ensure A victory and to save herself from horrors Ramsay will inflict on them.

      I also think that after the victory, Sansa is going to kill LF in the finale (perhaps along with Ramsay) after she uses him and the Knights of the Vale. I doubt there’d be anyone to oppose her as we’ve had foreshadowing of LFs power over Yohn Royce so he’d certainly be happy to see the back of LF, as general of the Vale forces.

      And let’s remember we also have the GOHH prophecy of SPOILER…. A certain maiden with serpents in her hair yadda yadda yadda…

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    142. Adam,

      Wasn’t the first time they went nuclear, smashing the land bridge between Esso and Westeros. Also, I think that they tried the same thing it at The Neck, given the description of the area.

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    143. Pigeon,

      I agree with this 10000%. She’s still selfish and she wants control. You can see by her satisfied face at the end of that meeting that she thinks she’s “won” – she’s outmaneuvered Davos and saved the day with her news about Blackfish. But she’s not smarter than LF and I think it’s clear that news isn’t going to turn out the way she thinks it is.

      But I do think her selfishness and her desire to “play the game” and control things herself will cost lives. It already has. And I’m not convinced that in the end she really does deal with LF. I think she’s so much more like him now, so much more like Cersei, that she isn’t going to put a knife in him and go back to being “good” Sansa.

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    144. I suspect the third WTF moment will be when Bran time travels fifty years into the future and it’s revealed that Little Sam is still a baby.

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    145. Pigeon:
      Final scene:

      ‘Ned woke with a start, the horrible dream already fading from his mind…’

      No ….

      ‘Ned woke with a start, the horrible dream already fading from his mind to see his floppy fat pink mast exposed…’

      That is a GRRM ending!
      🙂

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    146. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I got the sense young Hodor was actually experiencing (greenseeing) his own death. That’s why he’s all “Hodor” to everything. People are always asking him to do stuff and he’s like, “I got it guys. Hodor.” Take out the trash Wylis, “Hodor.” Make your bed Wylis, “Hodor.” Dude was extremely patient with everyone constantly reminding him of something he already knew.

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    147. RBloodworth,

      Well why else do you think it took the actors almost a year to film the pilot? They say it was due to actor changes and rewrites, but they were just filming the first episode and the last shot so all the kid actors still looked young. I am kidding of course, but I agree don’t end it that way. I am not sure how I feel about Bran having the capability of changing the past or history. Is he actually changing time, I mean Hodor became Hodor so it was a time loop. So far any changes affect he has had in visions has not changed any character in the present not yet. it seems like this is a story that has already been played out that Bloodraven has seen. No matter what he did, the Nights King was going to find him in the tree and kill him. That is when Bloodraven started setting up the events for Bran to come North and take over. I don’t know, my brain is frying just trying to think of the possibilities!

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    148. Nadia,

      I won t say evil. Just that she is going to try to conquer westeros when the bad guys aren t in power anymore. In the show if tommen dies the Southern kingdoms don t have any leadership, then robyn is too insane to live much longer therefore if R+L=J is confirmed and after all the wars i can see most of the kingdoms uniting to fight the ww.

      If “moments” before the war danny arrives with dragons, dhtriaki and pirates wanting to conquer and burn stuff it she will be the enemy of the good guys…

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    149. Sansa will probably just make some bad choices like Catelyn did…but hopefully with less awful results.

      I also think that Clegane bowl doesn’t seem to be likely…at least this year.

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    150. I don’t believe she intentionally betrayed Ned to Cersei either, yet she cost him dearly with her visions of castles in the sky slipping away.

      I don’t get why people continue to fault her for this – she was a child who could have no idea of the ramifications of that act. That doesn’t excuse her naivity going forward, but this, really?

      o, my thought/question is, is part of what happened a result of Young Hodor being able to see, like Jojen was able to see?

      Mmmmmmm, very interesting idea..

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    151. Nadia,

      Yeah, I think you took her comment out of context. She said she wants all the power in her court about Littlefinger. She didn’t say she wanted all the power in her court to take back Winterfell over Jon. Just my opinion.

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    152. I really really hope these last few episodes focus a bit more on kings landing and Cersei, because we still have yet to really deal with the falling out of her walk of shame, and how her revenge arc will proceed.

      In fact, Tyrion and Cersei haven’t had much to do this season, which is not surprising, but @ the same time interesting considering they are the 2 characters with the most screentime

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    153. Nadia,

      all the more reason why Jon won’t stay at WF once the Great War is over and he knows he is a Targ (even of the rest of Planetos doesn’t know)

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    154. Moka:
      The final twist is probably Dany being the big bad of the show.

      If she travels to westeros how can she not be?

      Who is she going to fight against to get the iron throne?
      The only way that she isn t bad is if she arrives and nearly instantly decides to join people to fight against the others. However it is unlikely that she will believe in the other, care more about them than the iron throne or that she only gets to westeros when the ww are a comproved menace.

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    155. Josh L,

      Dare I ask what this “Red Wedding 2.0” is ? I don’t mind filming spoilers but if this comes from some kind of episode summary that was leaked then don’t tell me.

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    156. Stargaryen,

      It would be like the Terminator universe then. The third film Rise of the Machines made very clear that the actions of Sarah Connor and company would never change the future, just delay the inevitable. If John Connor exists, then Skynet exists, and Judgment Day will always happen. Unfortunately, the filmmakers didn’t seem to get the point of the story and they kept making Terminator movies. . . 🙂

      The possibility that Bran might be cycling through endless reincarnations in futile attempts to fix the “problem” of defeating the Walkers – going against fate – is tragic and kind of creepy.

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    157. ash: I don’t get why people continue to fault her for this – she was a child who could have no idea of the ramifications of that act.That doesn’t excuse her naivity going forward, but this, really?

      Hence the part about not being intentional. ☺

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    158. Nadia,

      All the information you have is from a person who went to Reddit who claims to be an extra during the potential battle scene. The guy even said in his reddit post that a lot was going on, hard to follow and they never said Sansa came riding in with the Vale. it says the Vale shows up and Sansa is seen at the battle. Remember we have also heard that LF is there as well. Why is he there if he no longer has the vale. There are to many holes, we don’t know enough specifics, hell people thing the Umbers are for the Boltons, I do but I also think the SmallJon will cease an opportunity to see if his men can claim victory by the end. My point is the guy even explained he doesn’t know everything, a lot of stuff was confusing to follow and what not. I don’t think Sansa is sacrificing Jon at all, is she using him to help get Westeros, sure is! But not in a bad way.

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    159. Adam:
      The fact that the first White Walker was created by the Children as a weapon against humanity is a pretty big oh shit reveal, too. I’m assuming something that major can’t change from book to show as that is what sets the entire world history in motion. I’m still looking forward to the book, though, as we got almost no explanation of why they had to do that, how it went wrong, who that first man was, why dragonglass specifically both binds and breaks the spell, how Valyrian steel has the same effect, how the first that they created is able to create more by himself by changing human boys, why they all seem to be boys and never girls, how they gained the ability to raise and control the dead. I’m sure the books will explain all that. If the final book is never published, I hope Martin at least stored his notes somewhere and somebody publishes them.

      It could still be different in the books, though I believe the show confirms a connection between the Children and the Others. But let’s go with the reveal Sunday being the only version. That member of the Others who lured the Lord Commander to become the Night’s King in the old stories is a female. That’d we’d seen no females on the show was puzzling. So if we go with the idea that the truth was the “Female Other” was really a female Child, but the rest of the story is accurate, then was that man a Lord Commander? Or Bran the Builder? Did the Children and the first NK build the Wall and reign there to keep Man south? Did the Wall become part of a truce after relationships changed, and has Man broken it, bringing the Others south? And who is the Three-Eyed Raven on the show? We have an idea of who he is in the books, but has that changed? Are we in fact, for TV compression purposes, dealing with only one NK, since Leaf was shown to be the one who turned him? The NK seems to have a personal connection with TER, as he did taking interest in Jon at Hardhome.

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    160. Nadia,

      I think we all agree that Jon is being used by Sansa in some form if you really think about it. But that doesn’t mean Sansa is using Jon in the hopes he gets killed so he doesn’t take Winterfell from her.

      But the reason they are so outnumbered is because not all the armies side with them that they hoped and they can’t just linger. Ramsay isn’t going to sit around waiting for Jon and Sansa to create their army. So one of two things will happen – Jon and Sansa will get all they can – terribly outnumbered. Remember its not like they can write to Ramsay and say hey, we are terribly outnumbered you can keep Winterfell. They have to go with what they got, or Ramsay will come to them. Only reason Ramsay takes his army outside of WF is because he knows he has SUPERIOR #’s. That is when Sansa realizes I have not heard from Brienne and we will lose unless I go get the Vale. That actually makes more sense then the way you make it sound. Like Sansa leaves Jon once she knows it is hopeless and plans to show-up as soon as Jon and all his men are devastated. I think it will be more of a timing thing like the Lannisters and Tyrells at Blackwater.

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    161. dvc,

      Yeah I know. So ? That’s all we’re going on ? Do we know for a fact they are going to get slaughtered or is this just speculation ? And if they do get slaughtered, who exactly is doing the slaughtering ?

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    162. What did I miss? Is there a spoiler that Sansa and Jon are going to fight???? Jon is definetely going to be angry with Sansa because she didn´t tell him about Littlefinger and The Vale’s proposal. The wildlings and other minor northern houses are going to be slaughtered before Littlefinger arrives to save the day with the Blackfish.
      I think Sansa believes she is the boss. She is a Stark. Remember poor Robb though the Karstarks will follow him after he killed Lord Karstark. She was overconfident as Robb was. Fortunately, Davos was there to tell her the truth.

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    163. Markus Stark,

      not sure if there is really confirmed information about what will happen. We just have a similar situation as the red wedding happening… Walder frey and his familly being the center of a celebration…

        Quote  Reply

    164. Moka,

      Oh sure. And what if Ser Jorah realizes that before they’re reunited and decides he has to do something about her? Or does that sound too much like an episode of Falcon Crest? (I mean my idea, not your’s)

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    165. Tycho Nestoris,

      Gah! “Don’t”, you’re right. Thank you, Stannis. 🙂

      And ugh, seriously, another Terminator? That franchise is a dead end. The exception being the underrated Fox TV show a few years back that starred Lena. 😉

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    166. Nadia,

      No No No – respectfully disagree again. She doesn’t tell Jon because she doesn’t want anything to do with Littlefinger right now. She wants to earn it without Littlefinger. She is still young – you are making Sansa sound like a savvy Game player. She is not…yet. Davos already showed that when Sansa thought the North would rally for her if they tried. Well Davos is right he knows men and the Northerners aren’t going to be lining up at Sansa door like she thought. That is when she realizes she must swallow her pride and ask for help from the one man she doesn’t want help from, Littlefinger.

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    167. OMG! Can the fairly “fresh” wight who is shown near Meera and Bran and taken down by the mystery rider on the horse…could that be wight Hodor?!?

      Yeah…that’s probably silly. I’ll have to find the picture again. Surely not….

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    168. Tycho Nestoris,

      Yeah, I think that this is closer to correct (not that will ever be explained). Bran was not warging Hodor: Bran has no idea what is happening or that Hodor is there.

      I suspect that this is similar to the Blinovitch Limitation effect from Doctor Who (which has been used in many other SciFi works under different names), but inverted. Instead on two versions of one person being at the same place and time, the same event was happening to the same perso at two points in time: and therefore every point in time in between those two points.

      Wibbly wobbly!

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    169. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Tycho Nestoris: I got the sense young Hodor was actually experiencing (greenseeing) his own death.

      Agreed. I believe he saw exactly how he was going to die and that is why every time there was fighting or loud noises (i.e. lightning storm) Hodor got upset and froze up. He knew what was eventually coming – his death and the fucking door. Makes his life and death more tragic and heroic #Restinpeacebigguy #Heheldthatfuckingdoor

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    170. Nadia,

      Also, remember Littlefinger was ordered by the Royal Family to handle the Boltons after their battle with Stannis. Well that didn’t happen, he can still fulfill this promise to throne while helping Sansa at the same time. He could ignore Sansa and bring his army up any ways. Remember Jon and Sansa don’t get all the time in the world to find an army. There will be a point where the battle has to happen. I think whether Sansa goes down to the get the Vale or Not Littlefinger is bringing them up to clean up the Boltons like he promised. Watch out for Littlefinger taking out Stark loyalists once the battle is over, oh NO!

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    171. As Pigeon said, we fans are getting the best of both worlds. I’ve been saying this to book purists for a while: we should all be grateful for the changes. It makes the books all the more precious, and increases the value of vols 6 and 7 (if they ever make it to print).

      I’m also cackling at a couple of comments from yesterday which were essentially proclaiming “this Hodor reveal was so amazing, it must be from GRRM, because D&D aren’t capable of doing anything good.” Now we have confirmation that the beautiful, heart-wrenching scene was indeed their unique interpretation of the reveal. I love GRRM’s writing, but I’m a show fan too. I have had issues with a couple of the choices made over the season, but overall I think it’s incredible. It’s possible to love both, and I think most of us here do. So I do get frustrated when I occasionally see the wholesale dismissal of the talent of the show runners and the beauty of this adaptation. Thankfully, on this site and among the wider tv audience, that opinion is uncommon.

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    172. Tycho Nestoris,

      Yes, exactly. As I was watching the scene, there was a ring of familiarity to it, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Then, I realized…Jojen…that was like when Jojen was having visions. Interestingly, at least to me, Jojen saw his own death, too, but for whatever reason, it didn’t “break” him the way it did Wylis.

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    173. Ravyn:
      Would it surprise anyone if Martin was changing previously written details to distinguish it from the series?

      In a way, I feel bad for the guy. I know, he’s at home rolling around in piles of money. Poor guy. But on one level, it’s got to kill him that his surprises are being told by someone else. Then again, he has no one to blame but himself.

      ummm…yes, BUT he unlike any other writer, probably EVER in any medium, gets to gauge the reaction of the audience and adjust his material. that’s quiet a consolation prize. He watched LOST pretty intently. Now, I understand why – LOST pillaged a lot of his work. But, he was watching intently when LOST became very divisive in the end. Again, now I get it. He said he wants to take his time so as not “pull a Lost,’ e.i. shit the bed. Now, he sort of has the magical power to do it. He can see the audience reaction to what D&D do to land this beast and adjust accordingly.

      I feel sorry for D&D, who took this on, with presumably a belief that GRRM will give the structure/resolution/solution to this story. Now, they are tired and alone with the whole world watching. Not sure I know who the loser, if anyone, is in this situation.

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    174. Markus Stark:
      Josh L,

      Dare I ask what this “Red Wedding 2.0” is ? I don’t mind filming spoilers but if this comes from some kind of episode summary that was leaked then don’t tell me.

      Not a filming spoiler … more like a speculation / theory, really. I’ll put the rest in spoiler code just in case, although at this point nothing has been confirmed.

      The theory is that there will be a Frey / Lannister wedding, and that the survivors of the original Red Wedding and members of the Brothers without Banner will stage a surprise attack on the wedding participants and slaughter everybody in that wedding as revenge for the original Red Wedding.

      In a season trailer, there was a brief shot of Walder Frey hosting a banquet, which leads further credence to the “Red Wedding 2.0” theory.

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    175. Markus Stark,
      dvc,

      This season has a theme of fathers being killed (I think it’s just Walder left unless we are counting Jaime). I don’t know about a slaughter. I do not see a way for Walder to survive his re-introduction. I would actually like something similar to Roose/Ramsay. It may not work for everyone with how little screen time/characterization his sons/bastards have gotten. It’d work me though.

      So the who may be (book talk)…

      the brotherhood without banners. In Affc Tom o Sevens remains (unrecognized) at Riverrun after Jaime secures it. Tom is a singer in the brotherhood. Tom isn’t in the show but I still think the BwoB infiltrates the Frey party and do some damage?

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    176. Mihnea:
      Halfman,

      Thanks. I was starting to think I’m alone…

      No. You are not alone. I have been taking my time reading all of this, pretty much conjecture on Nadia’s part. I will reply.

        Quote  Reply

    177. If Bran communicated to young Benjen to look for him in the future … this could be the reason why Benjen took the black … in order to be able to look for Bran or the person that was talking to him like some kind of god … Therefore, Bran also ruined Benjen´s life. He better save the world.

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    178. Nadia,

      It would only be betraying him if it comes time for the battle and she runs away with Jon not knowing – running to get the Vale. I think right now calling it a betrayal because she lied is premature. We don’t know what her lie was for besides a Sophie Turner interview claiming it all surrounding Baelish. In her interview she never mentioned the Vale army. Weren’t we just lied to by all these actors and actresses for the better part of a year? mmh She is under the impression that other houses will come to her cause.

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    179. Moka,

      There is no bad guy only people who make mistakes. Night king is not evil he just wants those princes that was promised to him. As bargain was was with the starks .b raven is a targ trying anything to find replacements for the true born targ .he’s not dead I think looked like a bunch of feathers just flew away. Would need let his Sisters kids be given yes to save the realm of man .good guys r hard to stay that way always have the hard choices. Ned had to know crastor gave all boys so maybe he was promisd a princess he could fogre for amate.
      The touch on bran was out of love because there family.
      A

        Quote  Reply

    180. Nadia,

      Nadia, I agree with this statement – if she does all that with Jon not knowing and Jon dies because of this then sure yes it is a betrayal. But the Vale army is not loyal to Sansa one bit. Why should they be? They do what Robin Arryn says, and Robin Arryn does what Littlefinger says. All the people in the Vale that said they would protect Sansa while she is there have been played by Littelfinger and he now has control of them.

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    181. Nadia,

      Mihnea,

      Sophie has said in multiple interviews that she wants control. So exactly what are you disagreeing with me about

      1) that her lies are going to cost Jon
      2) that he will see her lies as a betrayal
      3) that Sophie said Sansa wants more control and wants to deal with things on her own terms

      I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to believe that Sansa and Jon aren’t going to be on the same page or best friends, but this is Game of Thrones. You think it’s going to be lovely and happy between them and that Jon and Sansa have the same end goal?

      1. Her lies could have saved Jon and Sansa time from trying to gather all these houses. Could they have an argument where Jon is pissed at Sansa. SURE, I bet that is when Sansa goes and gets the Vale. That is the extent. I don’t think it will cost Jon at all, just some wildlings at the initial stage of the battle.
      2. No Jon will not see her LIE as a betrayal. Lets keep it real at first, it is one lie, not lies. I agree that something could happen. Do I believe what you say will happen, no. Could he be upset that she didn’t get them sooner sure, but a betrayal? No, come on. He knows there are more important things to fight for, cough cough White Walkers.
      3. It sounds like winning Winterfell with no Northern houses and only the Vale sounds like a win for the Vale and Littlefinger not Sansa, especially since HE will be named Warden of the North per Cersei. Sansa wants control and power because it will be the only way she is safe, she wants it on her terms because it will be the only way she is safe.

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    182. In the end, Daenerys Targaryen will hug the Night’s King, and the will both dissolve and all magic will be gone.

      Jon will die then as well as he was revived with magic.

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    183. Adam: The fact that the first White Walker was created by the Children as a weapon against humanity is a pretty big oh shit reveal, too.

      I agree…but I assume the rationale will be fleshed out a bit more in TWoW. I wonder if the person being transformed by the CotF into a WW was actually a Stark ancestor? That would fit nicely in some of the “Old Nan” stories and other theories floating around the ether.

      Both the Long Night and the supposed resultant treaty between the CotF, WW, giants and First Men are up for significant debate again. Obviously, as some speculated, the CotF are pulling some major strings here and with their demise (along with weirnet central’s destruction) the magic behind the “treaty” and the wall may have suffered a major blow. I still think Bran and Sam will be the key to undoing the curse that the CotF started.

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    184. Ghosts Lunch,

      Massive lol if the “very end” basically means panning out from Westeros to reveal Planetos is in a Giants eye

      C’mon! They’re just screaming snow globe!! It’s been right there in front of us-Winter is coming! ??

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    185. Shipp,

      That is what I was thinking too, unless there is something more powerful about dragonfire. The dragons can kill the wights, while Valyrian steel or dragon glass will be needed to kill the walkers.

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    186. A Sansa debate… huh? Why?

      Sansa isn’t playing Littlefinger. Littlefinger isn’t playing Sansa. Neither of them has any real clue what the other is thinking right now… and they’ve both got different agendas. So they both decided to wait and see.

      Sansa simply didn’t kill Littlefinger in this latest episode. She felt he was being abnormally stupid last season, and using her as a pawn, when she was at least a rook. True to some degree, but the fArya plot demanded it… so…. that. Sansa still knows he’s Littlefinger… but she knows he loved her mother, and is semi-in love with her. So wait and see.

      Littlefinger is… Littlefinger. Wait and see is his motto. His weakness IS Sansa to a small degree… but what will win out? I think he’s secretly hoping what is best for Littlefinger is what helps Sansa… but even Littlefinger doesn’t know what Littlefinger is going to do – yet. I think he’ll side with Sansa… but only because he won’t be given TOO hard a choice, it’ll be perfectly reasonable to help at the time. A guilty pleasure to be able to offer an army.

      So there’s no imaginary betrayal, no Sansa turning on the Starks, no anything of the sort… there’s just a hope from both Littlefinger and Sansa that they’ll turn up on the same side in the wars to come. She didn’t tell Jon because the idea that she might have an upper hand on Littlefinger is slim and intangible.

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    187. Sou,

      Sad,isn´t it? 🙁 Now that the show will be ending in two years,I bet he´ll wait until then to release TWOW and from that point on,there will be NO more books…10 more years writing AT LEAST 2 more books to finish this never-ending story

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    188. Izatty,

      What? Are you accusing Lost creator/writers of stealing from Martin’s work. Do you have proof to make such a defamatory statement? Or is that you think that Martin is such a genius that only him can come up with creative plots? News to you, nothing Martin is writing is truly new. No stories are new. Read all the myths/fables/stories in the world and see that every modern writer has and will without doubt borrow from stories told long ago. There may be new ways of telling the story but the stories are basically recycled material. And just because a large number of people ardently believe Lost’s finale sucked, it doesn’t make it so. They are only opinions. For many of us, it was simply amazing and satisfying.

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    189. Stargaryen,

      You are absolutely right: the troops from the Vale are NOT loyal to Sansa. They are loyal to LF (by proxy of Robin Arryn). We already know that he has requested permission to Cersei to attack the North, overthrow the Boltons and be named Warden of the North… So, even if Sansa doesn’t really know about this, it’s rather a smart move not to accept LF’s offer. Even if they are in dire need of an army, accepting LF would be accepting a wolf in sheep’s clothing (no pun intended).

      I’m not sure why Sansa lied to Jon and I certainly hope that it won’t come back to bite them in the ass… It probably will, but I just hope that it won’t be something too costly to overcome.

      I’m sure that if Sansa would have taken LF’s offer, people would be complaining about her stupidity and how she betrayed Jon by accepting LF’s poisonous gift.

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    190. Flayed Potatoes,

      Yes, as the “council” meeting indicated Sansa may be empowered but that does not make her an automatic expert on military strategy. There is still a learning curve ahead, let’s just not hope it’s a hard one

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    191. Catspaw Assassin:
      I suspect the third WTF moment will be when Bran time travels fifty years into the future and it’s revealed that Little Sam is still a baby.

      And he’s with Gendry in the rowboat.

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    192. Stargaryen,

      Precisely, the only way that Sansa would feel safe is removing LF from the equation. She told him herself: he was the one who rescued her from one group of ennemies (the Lannisters) to give to another group of ennemies (the Boltons)… Therefore, she no longer trusts his intentions (as she shouldn’t do). Why, then, should she take his offer at face value?

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    193. Mihnea:
      Nadia,

      Yes. She will bring the army preaty late, because she will still believe she and Jon can do this without LF, but she then realizes they will loose.
      Then comes the Vale army.

      thats so going to happen, it is kinda too obvious now:/
      dont like it that LF safes the day. It kind of cheapens the win.

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    194. Stargaryen,

      Yep… I think this is possibly what he’ll try, but Sansa will catch him out and kill him after the battle, Per the book prophecy..

      I think that’s the scene where we see the shot of LF in the Godswood looking uncertain.

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    195. My Mind has recently been Blown with The New Rockstars review and insights for episode 4 on youtube. (seriously watch this people.. he’s bloody Good)

      He’s saying that he wonders if the Pink Letter wasn’t actually sent by Ramsay but rather a set-up by Littlefinger? And he picked up on a very cool detail… That during the scene when he gives Robin his hawk… he utters the line “Come and See” …??? LOL

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    196. Pigeon,

      Great summary. It hit me that, as I have learned, for many people abused as children, as Sansa was – she was and still is a teenager, control is something they often crave as they lacked control when they were abused and believe that control will keep them safe. Often this very control (and lack of trust or the trusting of the wrong people similarly resulting) drives away the people who could help them. So it makes sense from a standpoint of what she has been through to do what she appears to be doing, and it may serve her well in the short term, but may not in the long term.

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    197. Josh L,

      I see. Interesting theory, though I do hope the story ends up being a bit more complex than that. Seems like having minor and unknown characters be the downfall of Walder Frey would be a tad underwhelming.

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    198. I predict the final WTF moment will be the Iron Bank showing up and demanding its money, plus interest of course.

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    199. My question with Sansa and LF is that, notwithstanding her rightful mistrust and anger due to the whole Bolton fiasco, she already knows he had zero compunction about killing a king! And she saw him toss Lysa out the moon door and sucker heir, and the Vale! If those misdeeds aren’t enough for Sansa to see LF for what he is – never mind the supposed love of Cat or herself – then I’ve not much empathy for whatever horror she faces next from his actions. Seems like she missed her golden opportunity to remove him, take his army, and retake the North in one shot. Robyn would likely have to believe her and so definitely would the Vale Lords, who despise LF.

      Also, on another note, supposing LF has a Vale army that can, by itself, crush the Boltons and their allies, why wouldn’t LF just take the North for Robyn and the Vale (and himself)? Did someone mention 45k troops somewhere or am I mistaken? If so, LF needs neither Bolton nor Stark, or anyone else to rule the North. And it’s not like the Arryns, married to Tullys, and in-laws to Starks, are some foreign house, like the Lannisters or Tyrells. And they never screwed over anybody. And he has Cersei’s permission. What is he waiting for? What’s his end game?

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    200. dvc: With the show mitology i would prefer if the night’s king can only be killed qith a flaming DAWN!

      That is a great idea! Dawn must have some bigger purpose than being the coolest looking sword in all of Westeros. If the origin of Dawn myth is to be believed, it is made from the heart of a falling star. There already some theories suggesting it is Lightbringer. I am not sure what you mean by Jon’s heritage, though. (Please do not go to the detail of Preston Jacob stuff about Brandon+Ashara = Jon.) I believe R+L=J, and since Targaryens have Dayne blood through Maekar’s queen, Jon can still have some weak claim to Dawn. The Martells and Blackfyres do not have Dayne blood (as far as I know). Maybe this will become significant somehow.

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    201. Apollo:
      Stargaryen,

      Yep… I think this is possibly what he’ll try, but Sansa will catch him out and kill him after the battle, Per the book prophecy..

      I think that’s the scene where we see the shot of LF in the Godswood looking uncertain.

      Now that would be interesting. Perhaps Ramsay reveals while trying to bait her one last time, that her “Savior” was the one who arranged it all. That would be some righteous Sansa anger and retribution there.

      “Brienne! Fetch me a block!”

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    202. Hodors Bastard: I agree…but I assume the rationale will be fleshed out a bit more in TWoW.

      Does it need any more fleshing out? Humans were exterminating the Children and their forests. At that point, anything else is just unnecessary backstory. Moreover, this is much more tragic than Cane Toads: it is not as if the Children brought humans over for their own purposes, watched them run amok, and then needed a way to get rid of them only to have that go disastrously wrong. The Children almost certainly were (as so many real humans and other species have been in our world) victims of human expansion and disregard for what else was using the land that they coveted. The Children’s attempt to save themselves from an “evil” (to put it in simplistic terms) resulted in their creating yet another “evil” (again, simplistic terms).

      But I do find this to be an amusing reversal of the idea some people had that the Children are actually “evil”: nope, that is mankind in this tale!

      Hodors Bastard: Both the Long Night and the supposed resultant treaty between the CotF, WW, giants and First Men are up for significant debate again.

      Well, what it really begs still further than we already have begged it is: what do the Walkers want and/or need? OK, clearly they are not what the Children expected. However, and this is a key: they didn’t ask for this. Like sentient robots, they clearly want/need more than they were intended to want/need.

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    203. Direwolf Lvr: Perhaps Ramsay reveals while trying to bait her one last time, that her “Savior” was the one who arranged it all. That would be some righteous Sansa anger and retribution there.

      How would Ramsay know? I would expect Ramsay to know even less about the machinations in Kings Landing than I would expect Littlefinger to know about the goings-on in the North.

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    204. dragonbringer:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      See that’s where I don’t like this ice and fire being Jon.

      I mean when we speak about Jon being ice and fire ..he is the Union of starks and targs ..

      when speaking about individual powers the WW becomes ice and dany becomes fire ..

      Shouldnt it be called as bran as ice and dany as fire..

      Same goes for when speaking about magic vanishing from the westeros in the end so dany and her dragons should die along with WW but have we seen anyone say that starks and their magic along with direwolves all should die as well for that magic to be removed completely.

      But I agree that jon is a gateway for dany in finding a family which will get her jon arya and bran ..but with WW I don’t think so atleast I hope not .

      People likes to interpretate it in various ways and it all might be right in the end. Common interpretation is Jon Ice and Daeny Fire but it really doesn’t fit. Jon is not solely Ice. He’s at icy place but that’s it. A Song of Ice and Fire might mean among other things harmony, someone or something that brings the necessary balance.

      I see parallels as two strong forces destined to meet each other NK and walkers vs Daeny and dragons. Both about to arrive to Westeros to fight, they mirror each oher since season 1. My theory is that Daeny is the only who can kill Night’s King as AAR but this is for another day.

      You hope not? Why is that you don’t like him being important in some way. that Daeny might not be. This might be his role, to broke an agreement or what do you think he’ll be is role.? His parentage is somehow key to the endgame, otherwise they wouldn’t bother with it. By the endgame, I mean war and might be time after the war (that is questionable). But it will influence the war against them in some way.. I can see him eventually be the one to broke some agreement because don’t believe in total victory for either side. That would be too Hollywoodish.

      Again. Why do you get so defensive whet it comes to her, Targs, dragons. Bringing up Jon, Starks. I mean always. Of course if magic goes, it will need to go with the bang direwolves, dragons, walkers and I don’t see anybody saying otherwise here. People are really attached to direwolves and Starks but as you can see they’re dying like flies on the show and books are likely the same. Not in this fashion but they will.

      “But I agree that jon is a gateway for dany in finding a family which will get her jon arya and bran”

      Not sure I get you completely here. Don’t think Arya will play much of a part in this war or even with Daeny. Unless they introduce very expensive CGI pack or Arya riding a dragon. But same goes for Sansa for example. I might be wrong but The War of Dawn really seems to be mostly oriented on Daeny, Jon and Bran fro mthe beginning. Their destiny.

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    205. On the subject of Walder Frey, I’m wondering if they are setting him up to be killed by Arya. Even though his name isn’t on her list in the books they bothered to include it in the show. At this rate, it looks like the finale is the absolute earliest that she could return to Westeros, which wouldn’t leave much time for this to happen. Anyone else think it’s possible that they could be saving the hypothetical Red Wedding 2.0 until early season 7?

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    206. I know somewhere I either read or heard that George game them his entire outline for the remaining books as well as details pertaining to major plot points and how it all ends.

      They stated that they will get to the same destinations but will take different roads, or something along those lines.. so if they were being honest then that means the books will be spoiled when it comes to the major, key elements.. but not for the in between and smaller moments..

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    207. Chuck,

      Season 1, after Bran wakes up from his fall, Robb comes into his room and tells Bran that when he was little, Old Nan told him that they lived inside the eye of a blue eyed giant named Makumba.

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    208. Firannion: This crossed my mind as well.Now that Bran has seen how they were created, he may communicate to someone (since he has mobility issues himself) that the way to stop the WW/Others is to yank that shard out of the NK’s frozen heart.Like ‘The Snow Queen.’

      Why does everyone not no that they r the starks ww come on its right in r face.nights king married to dawn Queen to have a stallion who fucks the world. Fuckin is good.only the fire inside her could carry his frozen seed.princess was promised to him He’s pissed all blood raven thinking he knows best. This world needs a good fuckin .to be reborn again.

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    209. Stargaryen:
      Nadia,

      E9 we get Bastard Bowl. Good guys are losing, Vale shows up, turns the tide, good guys win. Having saved her life, LF worms his way back into Sansa’s good graces to at least some extent.

      E10 is when Sansa learns how LF betrayed her father. The person who LF sees in the trailer is the one bearing this information. For this, he dies…hopefully very cruelly.

      Now, is there anyone out there who knows of LF’s betrayal, has an affection for Stark girls, and ain’t dead yet?

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    210. After hearing all this half joking, final twist talk about a giants blue eye, it reminds me of Horton Hears a Who and a speck of dust on a flower, or Men in Black where the aliens are playing marbles with entire galaxies. I hope it doesn’t end like that.

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    211. Btw, just rewatched this scene and got so verklempt, it part because when Edd and Jon said goodbye and Jon wears that cloak, I thought for a second he looked less like Ned and so much more like Robb in that moment (the cloak, the curly hair)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5DdQM_teW8

      And some parallels – two ‘adopted’ brothers saying goodbye and those prophetic jokes “you Starks are hard to kill” and “don’t knock it down while I’m gone” and the hug where you know they both kind of know they won’t likely see each other again.

      Anyway all this Sansa back and forth, the one thing I can say hopefully is that the real fight is the one with the WWs and she knows that, so whatever comes between her and Jon I will hope for the best.

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    212. Lonald:
      I know somewhere I either read or heard that George game them his entire outline for the remaining books as well as details pertaining to major plot points and how it all ends.

      Supposedly there was a “story meeting” in 2013 between D&D, George and HBO executives were supposedly George gave them outlines for the storylines in Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring and the “end games” for each of the major characters was discussed; in case the show overtook the books…

      Also, Peter Dinklage has vaguely talked about “knowing the whole arc for his character” ever since he was offered the job of Tyrion.

      There is a reference to all this ( D&D, George and where the storylines are going) in a conversation between Ian Glen and Dinklage during their Blue Ray commentary for episode 5.09, at the end of which Dinklage states that “There is a plan, people.” (presumably speaking there to the fans…)

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    213. Lyanna_Targaryen: Old Nan told him that they lived inside the eye of a blue eyed giant named Makumba

      Old Nan’s stories have grains of truth: but grains of truth packed inside of boulders of nonsense!

      Nadia: I thought for a second he looked less like Ned and so much more like Robb in that moment (the cloak, the curly hair)

      I had the same reaction. It was a weird coincidence because if Harrington is going to look like another performer, it’s no more probable that it will look like a relative than anyone else!

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    214. Lonald: I know somewhere I either read or heard that George game them his entire outline for the remaining books as well as details pertaining to major plot points and how it all ends.

      GRRM must have given them the general plot outline as well as the overall story he was trying to tell early. After all, what you do early in a story hugely limits what you can do later in a story: and you should be telling a tale with the goal of creating a story throughout.

      That written, things like “why Hodor says ‘Hodor'” might seem profound, but it’s really not a huge issue for the overall story. It has some effect on where Bran is getting, but it’s not the only way he could get there, and it does not completely canalize where he can go.

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    215. There is no confirmation for Stannis burns Shireen in the books. It only means that Shireen-burning will happen. Somehow.

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    216. Rwillie21,

      the acting troop arc is 3 episodes which most likely end with her hopping a ship to Westeros in episode 7 and in Westeros in episode 8.
      If episode 9 is set up like last year the first 30-35 minutes are spread across 2 or 3 storylines before the big event so we may see her in episode 9. I dont know if we will see her in ep 10 as we have to tie up lose ends from episode 9 big event,we have spoiler of Kings Landing craziness and Dany always has something big in the finale

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    217. I hate to argue semantics but…who am I kidding I love it!

      Betrayal has a lot of uses. But simple lying isn’t one of them. Here is the primary definition from dictionary.com:

      to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty

      Some of the secondary definitions include:

      to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence

      to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling

      To dissappoint the hopes or expectations of.

      So maybe the last secondary definition fits w Sansa’s lie, but not really. In any case, betray is not the word you are looking for.

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    218. Darkrobin,

      Touché!

      However, my real point remains: there is nothing that they can tell us at this point that gives any more information. The Children were being destroyed by an “evil” and wound up creating a greater “evil” to combat it, which then ran amok.

      The keyest of key points is that the ultimate bad guys in this tragedy are…. humans. Pat yourself on the backs, my fellow Uruk Hai: we are watching a series and reading books from the orcs point of view.

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    219. Dylanstargaryian: There is no bad guy only people who make mistakes. Night king is not evil he just wants those princes that was promised to him. As bargain was was with the starks .b raven is a targ trying anything to find replacements for the true born targ .he’s not dead I think looked like a bunch of feathers just flew away. Would need let his Sisters kids be given yes to save the realm of man .good guys r hard to stay that way always have the hard choices. Ned had to know crastor gave all boys so maybe he was promisd a princess he could fogre for amate.
      The touch on bran was out of love because there family.
      A

      Dany will definitely be the big bad of the show when she comes to Westeros.

      In Essos, she faced slavers and barbarians, every viewer of the show clapped whenever she burned one of them. But when she comes to Westeros, who is she going to fight and burn with a smile on her face? It’s gonna be anyone who oppose her (like Tommen, Margeary…). And she will certainly not accept that another Targaryen has a better claim than her. In her mind, it will be another usurper helped by the Starks.

      Don’t get me wrong : I have loved Daenerys from the very start, she’s great and so bad ass, but her behavior can’t go well in Westeros.

      Now tell me this is not a big twist.

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    220. Markus Stark,

      I agree completely. Part of me knows that Walder’s death won’t be satisfying. Not a fault of the show or books but it just arrived too late ?

      But seriously, Hodor’s death makes any other feel meh.

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    221. About the great Sansa debate: from what I saw in the last episode, Sansa has finally learned that to truly protect herself, she needs power of her own. Not power that belongs to Jon or to LF. Her last scene at the meeting confirmed that. She is trying to get the Riverlands army for herself; it will be under her command. She’s sending Brienne away to find that army, while enjoying the protection that Jon and Davos offers in that moment. She is thinking of herself, not so much of Jon and his future.

      ash: interesting too because if that does happen, it just adds up to another stark decision that doesn’t go well. See Bran and WW, Robb marring Talisa, Catelyn releasing Jamie, Ned going to Winterfell………

      After the last episode, and observing Bran’s and Sansa’s storylines, I am starting to believe this! Great irony about the Starks as a family. Jon would be an exception since he was trying to do something completely outside his Stark family and their views: protect Wildlings and the realm from WWs.

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    222. Moka: Dany will definitely be the big bad of the show when she comes to Westeros.
      …. Now tell me this is not a big twist.

      The goal should be not to make a big twist, but to reveal the irony of one or more things that the protagonists (and audience) have taken for granted. As Daeny is one of the protagonists, the twist we need is for her to realize that something she is (at that point) taking for granted means something completely different than she thought.

      We’ve gotten part of the irony already: the Walkers were created to save a people being destroyed by invaders, and those invaders were the ancestors of many of the main characters. This will be particularly profound for Jon: and, eventually, for Bran. I don’t know that this will mean much to Daeny: she’ll probably be surprised to learn that Walkers even exist if she’s even ever heard stories about them. But because her ancestors were not the people that practically eradicated the Children, she’s not going to be learning that the basis for her beliefs are backwards.

      However: will she learn that something comparable is also dead backwards?

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    223. Tycho Nestoris,

      Franchise tent-pole blockbusters make a lot more box office money overseas now than in North America. That’s why Hollywood continues to churn out these loud, generic, tired franchise stuff. It’s easy money.

        Quote  Reply

    224. Stargaryen,

      The show has given us insight on these people. LF shouldn’t be trusted. Sansa has been abused and Jon has been a second class citizen trying to do what he thinks is right for the greater good. This is all speculation with only the insight and point of view the show has given us. It seems likely LF has a scout watching

      Bastard Bowl and is brought into the fold from his own source. After helping pull out the victory, trying to get on Sansa’s good graces flatters her with giving the glory to her, commending her on pulling him into the fold and wait to deliver the final blow. Jon looks shocked and LF pulls the you didn’t know look like when Cat was in Kingslanding and Ned had no idea. Jon still believes a man gets what he earns. Putting himself and his friends at risk to play at war for a sister that hasn’t been completely honest with him would rightfully piss him off especially if Rickon dies.

      Direwolf Lvr,

      It’s been said many times. It’s tough to hold the North. LF would gladly have Sansa keep the North in check with the name doing most the work than try to rule it in addition to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

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    225. Refusing a free army when they’re in need of forces is the dumbest thing she could have done. Withholding that information from the team was the second dumbest thing. Her selfishnes and pettiness will cost many people their lives. She’s willing to send so many to their deaths for her selfish reasons. Ever since she showed up, she’s been pushing jaded Jon to fight for her, all the while rejecting the help that would be a blessing for Jon.

      It’s hilarious that she’s supposed to be so mistrustful of Littlefinger now, and yet she took his word for it regarding Blackfish/Tullys. She also let herself be manipulated by him again. She has not smartened up. The only thing she has learned is how to lie.

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    226. Nadia,

      I didn’t read it that way at all. She wants to keep Jon out of the loop with Littlefinger because adding him in could allow Littlefinger additional leverage that she in no way shape or form wants to give him. And Sansa’s deal with Littlefinger is between she and him alone.

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    227. Flora Linden,

      To all who put forth possible endings stolen from TV shows and movies:

      GRRM and D&D will take it as a point of pride to design a unique ending that doesn’t rely on the Statue of Liberty buried in sand or Suzanne Pleshette waking up next to the star of two different sitcoms.

      I look forward to the final reveal and the underlying premise of ASoIaF.

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    228. Marlana:
      Flora Linden,

      To all who put forth possible endings stolen from TV shows and movies:

      GRRM and D&D will take it as a point of pride to design a unique ending that doesn’t rely on the Statue of Liberty buried in sand or Suzanne Pleshette waking up next to the star of two different sitcoms.

      I look forward to the final reveal and the underlying premise of ASoIaF.

      http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/339/265/bb8.png

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    229. Nadia: Probably something to do with Asshai, dragons, and the doom of Valyria

      I do wonder if the Valyrians were the Children’s next genetic project! (They really should be called the Parents….) The problem is that they just do not figure in any of the Long Night stories that we’ve gotten in the books.

      (I do believe that they were working on Indominus rex in the caverns. Because, um, er… Howland Reed is short, too.)

      Marlana: GRRM and D&D will take it as a point of pride to design a unique ending that doesn’t rely on the Statue of Liberty buried in sand or Suzanne Pleshette waking up next to the star of two different sitcoms.

      Anything that they do will have parallels with something else done. After all, the Walkers have parallels to the Cylons and the Daleks and half a dozen other robotic/cyborgish SciFi races.

      The question is (or questions are): what will Jon, Daeny, etc., do with these things when they learn them?

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    230. Icekhione,
      Why do you Sansa “haters” always speak of her as though she’s a real person? You really go out of your way to be venomous about a fictional character. People are acting like Sansa has somehow offended them through the TV screen! Get real!

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    231. Cosine: People are acting like Sansa has somehow offended them through the TV screen! Get real!

      Yeah! Move out of your parent’s basements! Get your own apartments! And grow the hell up! It’s just a TV show, dammit! IT’S JUST A DAMN TV SHOW!

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    232. Why did the night’s king want to kill BR so badly? The COTF warded the cave against him, the implication being he would try and break in at some point and/or had been for a while.

      Is he afraid of what BR could do and now Bran can do? Something about the past?

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    233. Wimsey: Does it need any more fleshing out?Humans were exterminating the Children and their forests.At that point, anything else is just unnecessary backstory.Moreover, this is much more tragic than Cane Toads: it is not as if the Children brought humans over for their own purposes, watched them run amok, and then needed a way to get rid of them only to have that go disastrously wrong.The Children almost certainly were (as so many real humans and other species have been in our world) victims of human expansion and disregard for what else was using the land that they coveted.The Children’s attempt to save themselves from an “evil” (to put it in simplistic terms) resulted in their creating yet another “evil” (again, simplistic terms).

      But I do find this to be an amusing reversal of the idea some people had that the Children are actually “evil”: nope, that is mankind in this tale!

      Well, what it really begs still further than we already have begged it is: what do the Walkers want and/or need?OK, clearly they are not what the Children expected.However, and this is a key: they didn’t ask for this.Like sentient robots, they clearly want/need more than they were intended to want/need.

      </blodr
      They want there promised princess in order to keep both of the
      There races from extinctions.
      Nadia,

      Arya Will kill thenfuck outtof sansa she gonna go find her Jon boy

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    234. ladywolfsbane,

      What are you talking about? Maybe LF is not going to harm Sansa per se but he offered to attack the Boltons to Cercei so she can name him Warden. He didn’t plan on Sansa escaping , maybe he thought he could manipulate her to help him take Winterfell. He immediately comes back and tries to pit her against Jon by telling her she needs a army loyal to her. That means he’s planning to do away with Jon and Co but try to get her on his side. She has been with him for a while, and no doubt she knows he has ulterior motives. Listen to the questions she asks him. So she refuses him because he is a snake, but she needs the army so keep him on a loop. If she had actually tell Jon about him, she would definitely have to tell them who he is and Jon would likely try to kill him, or lie to Jon and present LF as a trustworthy person, which would be worse because it would let the wolf among the sheep. In the season trailer he is in the Godswood in Winterfell, I wouldn’t be surprise if he gets a shock death in there at her hands/schemes.

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    235. aabe: Dawn must have some bigger purpose than being the coolest looking sword in all of Westeros. If the origin of Dawn myth is to be believed, it is made from the heart of a falling star.

      See a parallel between the meteor that provided the material made into Dawn and the Red Comet which catalyzed the resurgence of WWs and all the activity of ASoIaF.

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    236. Wimsey: Yeah!Move out of your parent’s basements!Get your own apartments!And grow the hell up! It’s just a TV show, dammit! IT’S JUST A DAMN TV SHOW!

      Two thumbs up.

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    237. So George told them only three wtf moments that haven’t been written?
      Shireen is one. Hodor is another. What’s the other ?

      Are you telling me that Jon coming back was not considered a wtf moment?

      How about jons parentage?

      Hmmm

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    238. All this Sansa talk is stressing me out
      I love her and I don’t want that to change

      But don’t fuck with Jon. Just saying

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    239. Wimsey: Yeah!Move out of your parent’s basements!Get your own apartments!And grow the hell up! It’s just a TV show, dammit! IT’S JUST A DAMN TV SHOW!

      It’s only tits and dragons…

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    240. Ravyn:
      Would it surprise anyone if Martin was changing previously written details to distinguish it from the series?

      That would be a real douche move on his part if he changes stuff simply because the show got ahead of him. I hope GRRM is above that. I expect there to be some differences but for the broad strokes of the story to be the same. He sold the rights and has produced 2 novels in the last 15 years, let’s not take your ball and go home. I will still read his books and enjoy them because you always get more detail that way and I think a whole bunch of people will there is no need for the show vs. books animosity.

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    241. Nadia,

      I’m so sorry but all of this negativity that you and some other people are showing towards this particular dynamic only shows the way you feel about this character, you see people like me who genuinely love her actually understood why she decided to hide the truth from Jon albeit being sad and confused about it (just like Sansa herself, in the scene with Brienne she makes it clear that Jon is Jon and she trust him but also stays silent when faced with Brienne’s question which shows her confusion about it).

      Also she was genuine as it gets when she gave him that gift and the fact that some people like you thought she was somewhat manipulating him is not only surprising but also – and i’m truly sorry for saying it- disgusting because it’s such a beautiful moment. Also some people speculated that she made that dress for him because she was feeling guilty, that is not true because she made both dresses before meeting with LF.

      By the way this whole speculation that this thing becoming a sibling rivalry is also very strange and something that i can’t stand tbh, this is pure cynicism that coming from some people, none of the things that people based their speculation on about this makes sense, Sansa mentioning having the Stark name for example, Davos said that we’re going to run into problem with uniting northern lords because Jon doesn’t have the Stark name then Sansa simply reminded him that she does and was like, don’t worry ser davos that won’t be a problem, that’s it really but some people somehow managed to interpret this as Sansa being a snarky bitch who reminded Jon that he’s only a bastard (this leads me to another thing people mentioned about this and that is Sansa being Catleyn’s daughter and all that Jon/Cat drama, well i wanna ask these people if they’re frickin serious??? For the love of god it was only last episode when Sansa made it clear that how sorry she is for being so bad with him in the past and she would do anything to change all that).

      Anyway Sophie’s explanations were perfect about why she hide the truth albeit short. This is unfair to Jon i understand but no one can blame her for playing her cards very very close to her chest after everything but hopefully soon she will know that out of all people Jon might be the only one she doesn’t need to do that with (after all he’s one of the very few people in this story who as Kit once said “doesn’t have an ego” and is totally incapable of scheming, one of the many reasons that i love him for).

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    242. The wights r doomed and so are the targs. Unless they forge union ,or children maybe even cof to start it all.back over from nothing.I’m really not interested in end game.just hope it’s not to bitter sweet. Like a world full of.pussy but no dicks..
      .or.the grey joy another bitter sweet word. Gonna need them ships euron greyjoy “Noah”. Once all that ice goes floating north
      Sea level will rise.all hell.breaks loose changing and renewing there planet.

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    243. Wimsey,

      There are already cyborgs: Victarion’s with a no longer living flesh arm, Jon, if he does not bleed or heal, Beric, LSH, FrankenMountain, maybe even FrankenHound. Even Mel, who does not eat or sleep in the books. These former humans were turned cyborg simply for the asking with a little chanting.

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    244. Dee,

      Yeah I don’t know…..we all know the story that when Benioff and Weiss pitched the series to Martin, he asked them who they thought Jon’s parents were and they answered correctly. So for them that was a huge wtf moment…and maybe they are assuming that most of the viewers will still view it as a wtf moment? There could also be more to it….something to do with Howland or Benjen….and hell maybe Jon isn’t Lyanna’s son…I’m hopeful though that whatever it is, I won’t have predicted it. I made the mistake of viewing some of the spoilers for this season and it really bummed me out in retrospect….would have been far better to see the episodes cleanly.

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    245. Rwillie21:
      On the subject of Walder Frey, I’m wondering if they are setting him up to be killed by Arya. Even though his name isn’t on her list in the books they bothered to include it in the show. At this rate, it looks like the finale is the absolute earliest that she could return to Westeros, which wouldn’t leave much time for this to happen. Anyone else think it’s possible that they could be saving the hypothetical Red Wedding 2.0 until early season 7?

      Yeah, while I hope Arya gets to kill him, I don’t think she will because of the reasons you stated. D&D are very much into bringing back tertiary and even secondary characters this season to kill them.

      I’ve been trying to figure out a way that Jaime might be the one to kill him, since he’s going there anyway and the siege seems like it’s going to go quite differently than it does in the books.

      Do we know how many soldiers are in the Tully army? Since LF specifically said the Blackfish has “taken” Riverrun rather than holed up in it with 50 men and we know the Freys have a large army, how many men could the Tullys really have? They are another house that’s almost been wiped out. That’s what makes me think LF is not being upfront with Sansa about what’s going on in the Riverlands.

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    246. Daughter of Winter,

      I don’t think people have anything against Sansa, I know I don’t. I would love for the reunited Starks to retake Winterfell and kill Ramsay and LF. I am looking at the possible story development and not who I like. It’s been setup to have a fallout is all I’m saying. If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.

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    247. Mihnea,

      You know,I would loooove to agree with you on the Jon/Sansa business and ignore Nadia´s remarks but tbh,that was the vibe I got from the information Sansa withheld from Jon…there is something murky in her conduct we just don´t know why or to whatever end which is a pity to me ´cause I´m sick of the JON CHARACTER being always taken from…his ¨sister¨ looked for him when he´s trying to find his feet after his shitty ordeal and minding his own business and plops on his lap the responsibility of retaking HER home for her,subtly insulting him while at it and possibly risking what´s left of him having any life at all 🙁 🙁 🙁 …so yeah,I would give anything to agree with you but not looking likely

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    248. Chuck,

      That’s why I don’t do spoilers hahah 🙂

      I’m pretty sure we’re going to have more wtf moments whether they came from George or from D&D

        Quote  Reply

    249. Dee,

      Agreed. I’m really curious to see how Jorah will make his return….that is one story arc I haven’t really thought about it and frankly have no idea on how it will play out.

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    250. Yin an yang a balance they r the gods . dawnere nights king.polars or mirrors they must right there wrongs.dany is a god just reborn and still.learning to fly.varys frying balls sizzling “dawnere” a love song of the world out of tune.

        Quote  Reply

    251. Chuck:
      Dee,

      Yeah I don’t know…..we all know the story that when Benioff and Weiss pitched the series to Martin, he asked them who they thought Jon’s parents were and they answered correctly. So for them that was a huge wtf moment…and maybe they are assuming that most of the viewers will still view it as a wtf moment? There could also be more to it….something to do with Howland or Benjen….and hell maybe Jon isn’t Lyanna’s son…I’m hopeful though that whatever it is, I won’t have predicted it. I made the mistake of viewing some of the spoilers for this season and it really bummed me out in retrospect….would have been far better to see the episodes cleanly.

      Jon’s resurrection and his parentage are as far from WTF moments as this story can get. They are both as canon as canon can be without being confirmed. Now that the rez is confirmed, and the other is right behind, it will be nice to move on to other exciting things in the story. I love being surprised like I was with Hold the Door. The R+L=J thing is apparent to even casual show watchers, or at least all the ones at my work. They are all very proud of themselves for having figured it out. 🙂

      Also, I am avoiding spoilers like the plague but if anyone wants to send any spoilers regarding

      Lady Stoneheart and/or Nymeria to the email in my profile, I would be happy to receive them. Just a simple “Yes, they’re in the show this season” will do. haha

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    252. All seems obvious all men must die.it is known half men lots missing cocks.the mother will make it better. Both sides of there history is warp by human ere. Oh I forgot I know nothing.

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    253. Laura,

      maybe Jon pulls a Nissa and kills Sansa or Dany or someone to defeat the white walkers….

      take it easy Jansa shippers…i’m just saying

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    254. I believe the show WW are different than the book Others, we know the book version have a civilization which readers will be taken too, via someone’s POV, and therefore I am of the opinion the show origin version will be strictly part of the adaption.
      I’ve long thought that GRRM was creating a commando unit with Bran, Meera, Hodor, Summer and CH, to what purpose? Travel into the heart of the Kingdom of Always Winter and take out the true power, whether it be a Queen, or some other entity. Therefore either Hodor gets his name from a past event or during the mission into said kingdom.

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    255. Wimsey: How would Ramsay know?I would expect Ramsay to know even less about the machinations in Kings Landing than I would expect Littlefinger to know about the goings-on in the North.

      Yeah, you’re right. I was thinking once Ramsey hears of the Vale army, he will know he’s been double-crossed and tell Sansa that LF knew what he was doing all along.

      But now I’m thinking she might end up begging him for help once again if things go south at Winterfell, and that scene is him milking it for all its worth. He will be back in control, over her, over Jon, and the North. He has the army, after all.

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    256. Regarding Arya, it was interesting how the play made Tyrion out to be the bad guy, both paying Payne to kill Ned, and being vulgar to “Sansa”. And Arya only has “that” to go by, as to who betrayed her father and now violated her sister. Might that make Tyrion a target now and an addition to her “funny little list”?

        Quote  Reply

    257. AlexG,

      This is just crazy though. Is he the only one who been through shit? I mean yeah she hasn’t died but in some cases, may as well. Joffrey, Ramsey. Probably the two people on the show who have no redeeming quality. None
      She is not manipulating Jon to do something he wouldn’t have otherwise done. If she wasn’t there, what would he do, go sun bathing in Dorne while Rickon is Ramsey’s prisoner, forget about the WW? Fine quit the NW, bit the rest he would have to deal with. People are acting like its mission get back Winterfell for Sansa. It’s not and she is not sending him out of his way for her reasons. She simply seem to want to deal with LF on her own. Which could be wrong or right but it’s not out of some grudge or bad feelings towards Jon.

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    258. Krastor a jumbled stark name to hide there shame for all those lil princes they have to give to the ww as part of the pact. No girls just boys why?well.they need mother to,teach them how to be.yeah I’d gotta boys to. With no other www around would’ve been hard than hard home.those north house’s know but a lot has been lost to time

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    259. Will I Am,

      Who said anything about the ending and bitterness of this story, i just pointed out my thoughts on current development in Sansa and Jon storyline and i was completely clear about it. Also i admire D&D for throwing in this somewhat of a dilemma and not just making it an smooth sailing (as much as i would love it to BE an smooth sailing). Now let’s just hope that they will sort this out between themselves without the whole thing affect their relationship in a major way (oh god even thinking about it…).

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    260. Dee,

      Haha love you too Dee, yes let’s have our fingers crossed that they’ll be able to sort this out between each other before… No i don’t wanna talk or even think about it.

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    261. Moremont just swept it away when asked by Jon. Ned seems like he could.care less like its just an everyday part of life. What is the point. Is it evil to give a child a loving father really I can’t see why Everyone believes there bad.if anything they saved them from crastors.. I like that fuckin nights king gimme my damn dawn already.no www around mother fucker looks cold and to me the awestarks.

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    262. Also, is the origin of the WW as shown in “the door” the same as as what Martin has planned? Did he tell them that???

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    263. tyjon,

      The commando unit to penetrate the heart of Always Winter will take out the fuel source that powers the WWs and their terraforming machineries.

      In Bran’s first vision, he sees the curtain of energy at the top of Westeros, and beyond, the threat to Westeros. That is why Bran is going north with Benjen and Meera, to eliminate the WWs energy supplier and destroy the WWs initiative to winterized Westeros.

      The WWs will falter and the wall will fall because it is no longer needed to keep in the cold.

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    264. Nadia,

      Yeah because dragons never existed in this world right …I must have been dteaming where dragons lived aming people for thousands of years ..

      dvc,

      A bad to who ..

      With all her forces and the state in which westeros will be it will be a quick sweep of the kingdoms…she has shown in the past she wants to win with minimum blood shed and loss and she thinks that of as well in regards to westeros..

      She is the only one who will believe in others because afterall she had seen with MMD and HOTU and she herself is magic..

      And about caring her to do something about the threat ..its been established time and time again that she is above all else a savior and will help the people .

      Its been her destiny to unite people to fight others and she is doing just that

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    265. Momma’s away the children Will play.they r the cause !cof suckers .r the offspring of the gods?leaf throwing red balls one min and before she takes it like a champ she’s got blue ball . no pun .why not start. With those blue balls. Hmm?vary balls burned blue.hmm .gotta love all the shadowing and dangling answers right in front of us.and litarly all around us.

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    266. Geralt of Rivia,

      Well that’s why I don’t think that this interpretation he is not just ice works very well..
      If we put our bias aside and think for a minute it will make sense .
      See we always know he will be a stark and Ned will always be his father. Jon is of the north he will never be a Southerner.

      I like to think that two targs seperated because of their destiny one living in the ice and other on the fire side unite in the end ..and thats where the parallels between them come and not to mention both having the rebirth from ice and fire respectively..

      If we are going to say ice and fire represent only one person then it is dany and not jon …because she has been in war with fire in essos and will be in war with ice in westeros ..she has shown both ice and fire in her character and there is also a line from HOTU drink from cup of ice and cup of fire ..

      If you see one of my comments above this thread. ..I theorized that Jon will be the one fighting NK and removing obsidian inside of him ..
      So unlike many I know how important Jon is but at the same time I acknowledge dany is important as him ..

      Why do i get so defensive about dany and targs and dragons because I challenge you to find when speaking about vanishing of the magic anyone to mention about bran dying or all the wolves dying ..warging power totally removed from westeros ..
      And that’s double standard for you .
      Of course I don’t want either starks or wolves or targs or dragons to die ..but why such double standards.

      You brought the killing of direwolves ..maybe its because they are going to get something bigger and that can fly …I means its only OK to have one beast with you right. .so they are killing the wolves ..

      Even in this thread you can see that dany and dragons will turn to be big bad … I should ask why was dragons didn’t exist between humans for centuries how these three baby dragons gointo be the one big bad ..

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    267. dragonbringer:
      Mihnea,

      Maybe someone we know who rides a dragon can ride to the heart of winter where the tree and spiral is actually present and destroy them.

      Which affects the NK which gives Jon an edge to over power him and takes the dragon glass out .

      Um what is the spiral?

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    268. Marlana:
      tyjon,

      The commando unit to penetrate the heart of Always Winter will take out the fuel source that powers the WWs and their terraforming machineries.

      In Bran’s first vision, he sees the curtain of energy at the top of Westeros, and beyond, the threat to Westeros.That is why Bran is going north with Benjen and Meera, to eliminate the WWs energy supplier and destroy the WWs initiative to winterized Westeros.

      The WWs will falter and the wall will fall because it is no longer needed to keep in the cold.

      And when Planetos has been saved from these alien terraforming human killers, the commandos will return home to be unsung heroes, because so few even know about the WWs, that no one will believe what the commandos did. Their deeds will pass into Stark lore, to be recounted by Old Nan, who may be immortal, or her successor.

      The bittersweet ending will be the continuing of Westeros warfare as if the world had not just been saved for their unworthy selves.

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    269. Krastor a jumbled stark name to hide there shame for all those lil princes they have to give to the ww as part of the pact. No girls just boys why?well.they need mother to,teach them how to be.yeah I’d gotta boys to. With no other www around would’ve been hard than hard home.those north house’s know but a lot has been lost to time

      dragonbringer:
      Nadia,

      Yeah because dragons never existed in this world right …I must have been dteaming where dragons lived aming people for thousands of years ..

      dvc,

      A bad to who ..

      With all her forces and the state in which westeros will be it will be a quick sweep of the kingdoms…she has shown in the past she wants to win with minimum blood shed and loss and she thinks that of as well in regards to westeros..

      She is the only one who will believe in others because afterall she had seen with MMD and HOTU and she herself is magic..

      And about caring her to do something about the threat ..its been established time and time again that she is above all else a savior and will help the people .

      Its been her destiny to unite peopleto fight others and she is doing just that

      Yes she is the mother of all not just the ones we are trained to believe or even like. The others are just a different sort. When hodor decides to take the mantle every one will sing a different song.all beings in a mother less world. If mother earth left we would surely fuck up bad. Dragon don’t matter “much” just a way for him to pull r attention from. Where. It needs to be. Dragon just a metafor away to put a lil fantasy into a story

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    270. Tristifer,

      You can see in the last episode that COTF tie the man around stonehenges with that tree in the middle ..
      When we get to see that place in a birds view we can see a spiral imagery..

      Now that place has turned into heart of winter where NK and WW live .

      And we can also see the WW arranging the dead bodies in Spiral pattern

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    271. It will be what he makes it .just don’t let it flood and the bitter sweet be grey joy “Noah”, theon. Would be about the only way he could ever redeem his self though. No fuck him.

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    272. Dylanstargaryian,

      You may be on to something in your theory
      Am afraid i also starting to believe it will turn out something like Nk wanting dany or his princess and something like that..
      I hope she doesn’t end like that ..

      Its too soon to be sure about this anyway maybe this time next year we will be having our answer .

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    273. They r trying to tell there mother the world is spinning the wrong way.not the way her dragon sigil is going.love how all of the answers fit just perfect in his spinning top of a world.

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    274. Direwolf Lvr: But now I’m thinking she might end up begging him for help once again if things go south at Winterfell, and that scene is him milking it for all its worth.

      Yes, I suspect that it will come to this. Again, that seems to be the story this year: the cost of improbable, distastefull and unstable alliances. Sansa does not want LF: but she will realize that she needs him.

      tyjon: we know the book version have a civilization which readers will be taken too, via someone’s POV, and therefore I am of the opinion the show origin version will be strictly part of the adaption.

      We do not know any of those things. What GRRM has told us is that the Walkers are sentient, that they are alive, and that they have a reason for doing what they do. Moreover, this is exactly the sort of origin for the Walkers that is consistent with Martin’s style of storytelling.

      tyjon: Travel into the heart of the Kingdom of Always Winter and take out the true power, whether it be a Queen, or some other entity.

      SoI&F is not a plot-driven story about taking out some “power” or “evil.” (After all, the true “evil” causing all of the problems is humanity!) This is a character story: and GRRM has stated more than once (and demonstrated more than once) that the theory of story to which he adheres is having lead characters face their own contradictions. There will be no commando team nuking Base Other: it will be a small number of people making a damned-if-you-do-or-don’t choice(s) with which they will have to live for the rest of their lives. And now that we know why the Walkers came into being, we can bet that this will contribute heavily to why Jon, Daeny and the others are going to hate whatever options they have.

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    275. dragonbringer:
      Have to ask what is the reaction from Linda this time around. .last time she was furious when D&D said that how GRRM told about shireen death ..

      I just can’t wait to see what will be the reaction when RLJ is revealed…will people act like its not spoilery and keep denying

      Well, I couldn’t resist and took a look a her video on episode 5. Its pretty much as one would expect with very little in it she approved of. She was well pissed off with the Kingsmoot scene and Euron part in it. She was none too happy either with the Dany/Jorah farewell when he revealed his greyscale, told her he loved her and Dany ‘commanded’ him to find a cure for it and then return to stand by her side again.

      Strangely, she didn’t have much bad to say about the final scene with Hodor and the WW, but smugly said she had deduced years ago about Hodor = Hold the Door, but whether that was just Linda bullshitting I can’t say.

      Actually she considered Ep5 the best one so far in Season6 – So D&D must be doing something right 😮

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    276. I am a bit confused by this article. Why was Shireen’s sacrifice a “holy sh t” moment? Her being sacrificed has been a long running fan theory with ample support from the books, and at least the way it played out on screen, it was about as pedestrian and non-twisty as it possibly could have been. D&D are clearly well-versed in the books and surrounding theories (

      for example, rlj

      ) and I have a hard time imagining that by 2013 they were not aware of this idea. Additionally, D&D are clearly not counting

      Jon’s parentage

      among the three “holy sh t” moments, even though it is far more twisty and important to the story than what happened to Shireen. The only reason they would be excluding this from the three is that they already strongly suspected it, and thus didn’t feel the “holy sh t” during the interview, because they had already felt it earlier when they figured it out or came across the idea. But shouldn’t the same be true of Shireen?

      Does anyone have any direct quote by D&D saying Shireen was among the three? Perhaps I missed it, but I didn’t see one when I looked for it. Everything is third hand, and I am wondering if there could be a misinterpretation.

      Note that Hold-the-Door was very different in this respect. Even with all the hand-holding the last couple weeks that led us to the right words, the entire weight of the ASOIAF/AGOT fandom still couldn’t nail down the final twist. That’s the kind of thing that I can imagine feeling “holy sh t” over if GRRM had told me a few years ago. But Shireen? Sullied long knew it was coming, even before the true setup began a few episodes prior, and the consequences of it about as simple and direct as one could have possibly written.

      Side note: GRRM has indicated he has added a new “twist” since that time. Hopefully, it also rises to the “holy sh t” level.

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    277. HelloThere:
      Mihnea,

      I recently saw a video from her and Elio pop up on my youtube recommendations… i thought they were done watching and reviewing the show, lol.

      Linda? I think she translates episodes for the show subtitles in Skandinavia so she can’t really avoid it.

      A lot of hate for her here but she’s a book purist, works with GRRM and the show and is entitled to her view.

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    278. 3 Moments

      Shireen. Hold the Door. In D&D’s shoes I could not have guessed jon’s parentage. So to me that’s a reveal. However, D&D seemed to have known that going in. So it’s likely something else. Some other mysteries in the book canon are Coldhands/Benjen, Oldtown (mage/glass candles/jaqen’s mission/alleras), identity_13Th LC of NW, identity_Quaithe, HM=HM, Davos in Skagos, who’s “ghost” did Hodor unleash? and my personal favorite…Moqorro’s dragon prophecy to vic, “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.” My hope is the twist is none of these.

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    279. Laura: Jon’s resurrection and his parentage are as far from WTF moments as this story can get. They are both as canon as canon can be without being confirmed. Now that the rez is confirmed, and the other is right behind, it will be nice to move on to other exciting things in the story. I love being surprised like I was with Hold the Door. The R+L=J thing is apparent to even casual show watchers, or at least all the ones at my work. They are all very proud of themselves for having figured it out.

      Also, I am avoiding spoilers like the plague but if anyone wants to send any spoilers regarding

      But

      Jon’s parentage

      IS a huge wtf moment – whenever you figure it out. Just because you and most sullied figured it out (or ran across it) years ago doesn’t change this. The fact that D&D did not count this among the three “holy sh t” moments implies they were not counting well-developed, well-supported fan theories. Which makes me wonder why they would have counted Shireen, as that also was a strong fan theory, and what played out on screen was about the least “wtf” version one could come up with.

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    280. Wimsey:
      Chad Brick,

      They had already had worked out who Jon’s mother is by 2008.Ergo, it could not be a revelation in 2013.

      I understand that. What I am saying is that I am incredulous with respect to them being unaware of Shireen’s potential sacrifice by 2013. It shouldn’t have been a revelation either, even in 2008.

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    281. Dee:
      So George told them only three wtf moments that haven’t been written?
      Shireen is one. Hodor is another. What’s the other ?

      Are you telling me that Jon coming back was not considered a wtf moment?

      How about jons parentage?

      Hmmm

      I think, when the writers say “the biggest wtf moments” they don’t mean it in terms of importance to the story, rather how unexpected to the audience that twist would be. So rlj and Jon’s resurrection, while extremely important to the story, have been two of the most popular guesses in the fandom for a long time now and very far from being wtf moments.
      Still, the rlj reveal, whenever it happens, will be very satisfying as we have been waiting for a long time for this.

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    282. ArgonathofBraavos:
      Tycho Nestoris,

      as with much of the translation from book to screen, the screen version will be better, in comparison to other works of art in their respective mediums.

      Seriously? I think that the only screen version of anything that I’ve ever seen that was better than the book was The Princess Bride.

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    283. Mihnea:
      Nadia,

      She doesn’t want LF help because she doesn’t like him and what he did. She wants to retake WF without him. She is fooling herself though…

      Then she realizes she needs LF and needs the Vale army..

      That’s my guess too.

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    284. Pigeon:
      Nadia,

      I don’t think that Sansa will intentionally betray Jon.

      Clearly and persuasively explicated, Pigeon. I agree with the vast majority of what you say. It’s far too early to jump to conclusions about what Sansa is up to, in my view.

      One rather simple possible explanation for Sansa’s lie, which seems to be getting totally overlooked, is shame. She undoubtedly feels embarrassed that she let herself be Petyr’s tool for so long. Now she’s trying to rebuild her self-esteem after being thoroughly traumatized. If I were in her position, I might not be keen on people knowing about stupid decisions that I’d made, either. Especially people I care for,

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    285. ghost of winterfell: I think, when the writers say “the biggest wtf moments” they don’t mean it in terms of importance to the story, rather how unexpected to the audience that twist would be. So rlj and Jon’s resurrection, while extremely important to the story, have been two of the most popular guesses in the fandom for a long time now and very far from being wtf moments.
      Still, the rlj reveal, whenever it happens, will be very satisfying as we have been waiting for a long time for this.

      You are right. It is not wtf for the “fandom”, but it it is for the 90% of viewers not in the group or otherwise inadvertently spoiled. It was for you once, too.

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    286. Firannion: Seriously? I think that the only screen version of anything that I’ve ever seen that was better than the book was The Princess Bride.

      Arguably Blade Runner and Apocalypse Now.

      Note that all three are very short books.

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    287. Brandon:
      I feel like every statement about the books diverging should be accompanied by “if they are ever completed”.

      Oh please… Waaaay too many people already act like it’s obligatory to say something like this anytime they mention the books. It’s very tedious. Please don’t encourage more to climb on that bandwagon.

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    288. ghost of winterfell,

      Good point
      When I figured out RLJ (I haven’t read the books) I didn’t go WTF I went ahhhhh and sick lol
      And when he was rezzed I wasn’t like wtf I was more like yes I am so happy – cause everyone even most casual viewers were praying for him to come back or not be dead lol

      So you make a good point

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    289. Firannion,

      TIL the author of Princess Bride wrote the adaptation. Now the whole book reading makes more sense.

      Chad Brick,
      Apocalypse Now is a good counter-example. We can probably throw Shawshank in there with the short(er) stories. You may be on to something with shorter stories make for better adaptations. So can someone please make a live action Ryhme of the Ancient Mariner?

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    290. Marlana: Yes, and medieval concept of history was not linear, but cyclic and mayhaps spiral.

      This reminds me about the weird anachronistic quality of Dany’s ‘break the wheel’ speech, which kind of sounds like the concept of the Juggernaut in Hindu folklore. In medieval Europe, the symbol of the Wheel would either refer to the cycle of the seasons (kinda ruled out on Planetos) or the Wheel of Fortune. It’s not about politics, but about the randomness of Fate. Now you’re up, now you’re down, no one controls it. O Fortuna!

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    291. Wow, the Sansa debate here was a NIGHTMARE.

      You can take what you want from filming spoilers, actor commentary and press interviews, but until the episode airs, this is all just conjecture.

      The scenario can play out a hundred different ways… I can tell you what I THINK will happen, because I don’t know, and I’m not willing to make an ass of myself pretending otherwise.

      Jon and Co. will be outnumbered, even with the combined help of supporting Northern houses, it won’t be enough. The gang realizes they may be on the losing side. Sansa realizes her pride wasn’t worth it, it wasn’t worth Rickon’s life, nor Jon’s, nor any of their forces… she confides in Jon, “I should have taken his help, I should have told you… but I hate him, how can I trust him?!” Jon responds, “who?! WUT?!” Sansa – Littlefinger, he came to me while at Castle Black, promising the Vale to our cause… but my pride, my hatred for the man, would not allow it. I thought we could win this without, Jon, I truly did. If only I wasn’t so stubborn, so foolish”, Jon responds, “it’s not pride, Sansa, it’s honor… you are a Stark, your father would be proud you turned down that snakes offer, but if they are truly loyal to our cause, it may be time to swallow our pride. A wolf shall never trust a snake, but we can use his help to chase out this rat from our home, to save Rickon… “. Sansa and Brienne then travel to fetch the manipulative douche and la di da, the vale turns the momentum.

      Annnnd then, Petyr betrays them again.

      MORE DEAD STARKS.

      Is this bordering on fan-fiction yet?!

      All I know is I’m excited to see where the season takes us from here. Instead of bickering, we should be fetching a gift for the many faced god.

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    292. Knight of the Walkers: but as you say I bet he’s absolutely devastated that the show will finish before he does.

      According to that Redditor who “spoke” to Martin, he seemed “depressed” that the show got to do Hodor first, but also acknowledged he has no one to blame but himself. So, it is having an effect on him.

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    293. Anthony,

      I completely agree with you.

      This is my greatest fear – the Night King’s mark on Bran’s arm broke down the magic of the tree and that it could potentially do the same if Bran and Meera go south of The Wall.

      I know this makes me a heartless cow but I am more worried about this outcome than Hodor coming back as a deranged wight.

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    294. Chad Brick,

      Oh please. It’s not about the length of the book that makes it harder/easier to adapt for screen. It’s about whether the book is more plot driven or internally driven. “Silence of the Lambs” was a great adaptation, but it was also an easy one as the book itself pretty much read like a treatment for a film. Movies that deal with internal psychology, like “Lolita”, or “The Old Man And The Sea” (a short book!) are just harder because they don’t rely on the things that drive a dramatized narrative, like plot, action, movement.

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    295. Chad Brick,

      Jon’s resurrection would not be a surprise for even the casual fans. As for rlj, I don’t know if the 90% figure is correct, atleast, almost everyone I know who watches the show is aware of this theory. I have seen this theory mentioned in newspapers, TV magazines etc.

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    296. WTF !!!!!! Martin can not burn shireen by stanis, it goes against the Stannis plan. Stannis may be blind, but not stupid, Shireen is her first heir !

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    297. It’s probably not even 1% chance, but it would be damn funny if the shocker is that it’s not R+L=J but something else.

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    298. Chad Brick: Arguably Blade Runner and Apocalypse Now.

      People think Apocalypse Now is better than Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness?

      That’s kinda news to me.

      Most of that movie is a masterpiece, but from the time Marlon Brando shows up until the end, the last half hour is kind of an incomprehensible mess…

      I agree about Blade Runner.

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    299. So are we to assume that GRRM only told them one more wtf moment? And everything else awesome for the rest of the TV show is stuff DandD made up themselves?

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    300. Pigeon:
      Honestly, as someone who read the books before the series, I feel like I am getting the best of both worlds here. The show doesn’t ‘spoil’ the books for me, I’m still as anxious to read them as ever (which makes me a masochist, of course), and at the same time I get to see the world of ASOIF continue in the meantime which the wonderful actors and plot lines that I love, and the ones I dislike as well.

      Knowing (sort of) what would happen in the show from the books previously didn’t spoil the show for me at all. I had a few ‘Wtf? This doesn’t happen!’ moments, which I got over. Because you really couldn’t depend on it to be the same in all aspects, which was great. And the things that stayed pretty true….well let’s just say that Mountain vs Viper could not have punched me in the gut any harder if I hadn’t read it beforehand. I knew exactly what to expect, and I thought I was prepared, and yet there I was, gaping at the black screen of end credits like a fish out of water, completely gutted.

      I feel really lucky to have these 2 mediums to watch a great story unfold.

      Here! Here! Well said! To add, we all get to read and speculate and comment which only amplifies the feeling of entering another world.

      I would also like to add, in regard to GRRM and completing the books: imagine how difficult it must be to have created an entire world and lived with this world for so long in your mind. To picture what it looks like and see the characters and know them like they are your children. Then suddenly to see someone else’s imagining of this world that is their image, not yours. And now you have to go back and try to recapture your picture and story but you can’t entirely erase the other image. No wonder he has had writer’s block! In a sense he has probably had to re-imagine the whole thing. Not to mention he went from his quiet writer’s world to mega star everyone wants to meet. I don’t think any of us could have handled this differently.

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    301. Ravyn:
      Chad Brick,

      Oh please. It’s not about the length of the book that makes it harder/easier to adapt for screen. It’s about whether the book is more plot driven or internally driven. “Silence of the Lambs” was a great adaptation, but it was also an easy one as the book itself pretty much read like a treatment for a film. Movies that deal with internal psychology, like “Lolita”, or “The Old Man And The Sea” (a short book!) are just harder because they don’t rely on the things that drive a dramatized narrative, like plot, action, movement.

      It is not about ease/difficulty, it is about depth. In most cases, a full novel has a lot more time and space to move about in than you can cram into a two hour movie, and thus the movie by necessity is simpler. When you are talking about a short story, novella, or a short novel, this is not the case, and the two media are on more equal footing. If done well, either format can then exceed the other. That’s why I find it not unusual for screen adaptions of short works to turn out better than the originals, but honestly know of zero cases of the screen adaptions bettering a full length novel.

      Note that my association of depth with “better” is a matter of personal preference, but a common one when talking about the “best all time” in any media. Star Wars and Ironman may make big bucks, but they ain’t the best things ever.

      ghost of winterfell:
      Chad Brick,

      Jon’s resurrection would not be a surprise for even the casual fans. As for rlj, I don’t know if the 90% figure is correct, atleast, almost everyone I know who watches the show is aware of this theory. I have seen this theory mentioned in newspapers, TV magazines etc.

      Among my unsullied friends, it is zero percent. Absolutely none of them are even within a million miles of thinking about it. I think this is the norm among TV-only folks who haven’t spoiled themselves somehow, and that you underestimate how many TV-watchers bother to hunt down news articles about shows they watch. The unspoiled are many, and we are the few (God, I feel like Whimsey).

      In any case, that is a tangential point. What I was trying to argue is that D&D excluded this holy sh t moment precisely because they strongly suspected it, not because some modest fraction of the audience did. But the same should have been true about Shireen, especially in 2013 when Season 3 was already on the air and they had likely written Season 4 (not sure of the interview timing). Her sacrifice has long been speculated, and what was shown on the screen was about as non-wtf as any of the possible theories out there. If GRRM had told them something like what occurred in S5E09, they wouldn’t have felt “holy sh t”. More like “That’s all there is to it?”

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    302. George: People think Apocalypse Now is better than Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness?

      That’s kinda news to me.

      Most of that movie is a masterpiece, but from the time Marlon Brando shows up until the end, the last half hour is kind of an incomprehensible mess…

      I agree about Blade Runner.

      I think Apocalypse Now and Heart of Darkness are close enough to be arguable. I first consumed them both in one drunken weekend in my college days. It was a hoot. Haha.

      In any case, Princess Bride, Blade Runner, and AN are the usual candidates people put forth. I haven’t read Shawshank (not an SK fan myself) but perhaps I should give it a whirl just to see how it holds up to the movie.

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    303. Ravyn: It’s about whether the book is more plot driven or internally driven.

      Well, plot-driven stories are very rare these days. Part of what the Inklings were about was a sort of counter-revolution to bring back plot-driven stories: Tolkien, Lewis, etc., hated character-driven stories (like Thrones and, frankly, everything but most of the rest of epic fantasy) because as early 19th Century Tories, they hated the idea of people not accepting the place to which they were born in society.

      The bigger issue is: can the character evolution driving the story be easily enacted, or is it really all in the italic lines in the book? Faulkneresque stories like Thrones probably are easier to adapt than some others in this way because the story revolves around scenarios where you establish that someone holds “Thou Must Always Do X” and “Thou Must Never Do Y” and then put them in a situation where X=Y. The key is developing the characters so that we understand their X, Y, Z etc. principles.

      But the other big thing that we have to always remember is that the best novels are awful scripts. There are lungs and feet that cinema needs when novels are using gills and fins. Novels have to do a lot of things that shows/films do not have to do in order to communicate stories and vice-versa. But that is why they call it “adaptation”: you ditch the literary versions of the anatomy for cinematic versions of the anatomy, or the story animal fails.

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    304. DrPatat: Stannis may be blind, but not stupid, Shireen is her first heir !

      Stannis will not do that in the book because it is too late for that in the book. However, Stannis would do that. Stannis is a simple moral absolutist: he is the equivalent of a religious fanatic who’s god is “honor.” Stannis is honorbound to take the Iron Throne by whatever means necessary, even if he does not particularly want it. But he also is convinced that he is honorbound to lead the fight against the Great Other, even though he seems to barely accept that it is real.

      This comes up in both book and show: what is the life of one boy against the life of an entire kingdom? Would he be different for his daughter? Probably not: although we often ding the religious for their hypocrisy, the worst of the fanatics are completely lacking in hypocrisy. (Or, to paraphrase Tyrion’s highly politically incorrect analogy, the priests who are in it to diddle little boys aren’t the dangerous ones, it’s the priests who actually believe what they are saying who are the dangerous ones.) And Stannis is a “honor fanatic” without much hypocrisy.

      On the other end, I expect that this will be very important in the climax of the season. Jon almost certainly owes his existence to Ned Stark finding the flexibility to put one little boy above other dictums of honor. Ned almost surely paid for that by living the rest of his life feeling like a hypocrite. I will be the bottom dollar that Jon’s contribution to the climax is going to involve Jon having to put some analog of the little boy above his honor.

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    305. Demon Monkey: We don’t know how Blackfish feels about the bastard of WF. He seems like a more practical man to me than that.

      We know from the books. However, keep in mind that this is a society where (much like western society was until not long ago) one where it was just taken for granted that bastards were less moral, less intelligent, etc., than “true born” children, just as it was taken for granted that women, men with an over abundance of melanin, etc., all were less moral, less intelligent, etc., than white males.

      The upshot of this is that a “practical” person would be taking into account the fact that Jon will be an unreliable ally because he is inherently untrustworthy. (Of course, the fact that his niece of whom he was fond had exactly zero nice things to say about Jon would not help on that score!) It would be very impractical for someone to start asking: “Hey! Have our assumptions been wrong all of this time?”