George R.R. Martin waxes melancholic on 2020 but says he’s “hopeful” about The Winds of Winter

george rr martin photo

George R.R. Martin took to his Not A Blog yesterday to share his rather somber thoughts on the past year. Though he also included a somewhat optimistic update to his progress on The Winds of Winter, it would be unfair to characterize that as the focal point of his post. Martin’s exhaustion is palpable.

“2020 was probably the worst year I have ever lived through,” he wrote and that, really, is his post’s thesis statement.

He began “Reflections on a Bad Year,” by addressing the pandemic. He explained that he usually writes an end of the year round-up in late December or early January but this year, everything else that happened in 2020 “dwindles in importance in the shadow of hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths.”

After mentioning that he’s on the list to get vaccinated and briefly celebrating the removal of Donald Trump, Martin got personal and admitted that he lost several friends last year, “some very near and dear to me. I have several other friends who are in failing health, so I fear that there may be more losses to come.”

He then spent a paragraph on how “growing old sucks” (this is where I started to worry about him) and how “science guys” should really “get cracking” on finding a cure to death.

“[B]eing an SF writer, I can imagine many better alternatives. Eternal youth. Robot/android bodies. Cold sleep. Upload to the internet … Death sucks even worse than getting old.”

Umm …

On a lighter note, Martin admitted that, in addition to the election, 2020 was a good year for the progress he made on The Winds of Winter.

“I wrote hundreds and hundreds of pages of The Winds of Winter in 2020. The best year I’ve had on WOW since I began it. Why? I don’t know. Maybe the isolation. Or maybe I just got on a roll. Sometimes I do get on a roll.”

He cautioned, though, that he still has “hundreds of more pages to write to bring the novel to a satisfactory conclusion. That’s what 2021 is for, I hope.”

Now, as tempting as it was to make that last line the headline for this post, doing so would have been misleading because Martin immediately followed it up with:

“I will make no predictions on when I will finish. Every time I do, assholes on the internet take that as a ‘promise,’ and then wait eagerly to crucify me when I miss the deadline. All I will say is that I am hopeful.”

He stressed that he is a very, very busy man, with “a zillion” things to do and a plate that is “full to overflowing.”

He signed off by wishing for us all to keep ourselves safe and healthy and listing his “Current Mood” as “Tired.”

168 responses

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    1. blah blah blah, long winded b.s., etc…

      His posts are very egocentric and self-serving. He acts like such a delicate genius and victim.

      Just finish the book already and stop yapping about how you’re working on it. That would probably cure the problem of strangers “crucifying” you on the internet.

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    2. Ten Bears:
      Same old song…

      Yea, he kind of goes out of his way to create frustration among his fans with these completely useless updates, but then acts like he’s a victim when people get frustrated at him.

        Quote  Reply

    3. Same shit, different day with him.

      I honestly do not want to hear another word out of him about his “progress” on Winds until this book has a release date.

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    4. It’s just pathetic at this point.

      It’s has been 10 years since the last book.

      HBO produced 8 seasons of Game of Thrones. They produces one pilot episode of spin off show that was cancelled. Production of House of the Dragon will start in 2 months. They are working in many other shows in Game of Thrones world.

      And Jon Snow is still dead in the show.

      Enough is enough.

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    5. Holy hell these comments are toxic as hell.
      Zero empathy for a 72 year old man who is responsible for creating a world and story that many of us have as our favorite.

      Zero empathy for the fact that he lost many people who were very close to him last year, and is probably about to lose many more. He also spent a lot of the year in almost complete isolation, which was very difficult for him.

      The pandemic was / is very hard on some people even if they didn’t get sick personally, and obviously he’s one of those people. Despite that fact he made a lot of progress on the book.

      All of these insulting and entitled comments towards him are disgusting, honestly. Have some goddamn respect.

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    6. Strange that the progress, or lack thereof, on his novel…the now almost mythical, there but not there, “Winds Of Winter” is tied to an election and not the procrastination and inability to finish. That book has now become a old wife’s tale…pretty much like the White Walkers, sorry, the Others.

      You know it could be that the Others have taken him hostage…angry because they saw their inevitable advance and quest for world domination on the show end up so…abruptly. That at least would be a more plausible explanation.

      And if he thinks 2020 is one of the worst years ever….well that is an entirely different story…

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    7. Nick:
      Holy hell these comments are toxic as hell.
      Zero empathy for a 72 year old man who is responsible for creating a world and story that many of us have as our favorite.

      Zero empathy for the fact that he lost many people who were very close to him last year, and is probably about to lose many more. He also spent a lot of the year in almost complete isolation, which was very difficult for him.

      The pandemic was / is very hard on some people even if they didn’t get sick personally, and obviously he’s one of those people. Despite that fact he made a lot of progress on the book.

      All of these insulting and entitled comments towards him are disgusting, honestly. Have some goddamn respect.

      Respecting someone does not mean they are above criticism.

      The word “toxic” frequently gets overused and misused as it is here. Thanks to that, it’s been reduced to a buzz word with little actual meaning.

      “Empathy” means putting yourself in someone else’s shoes. We’re all dealing with the same pandemic, so empathy is not a problem here. We get it. It sucks…it sucks a lot. a lot people are suffering through this, probably far worse than GRRM is, quite frankly.

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    8. Did sauropods lay big enough eggs to cover the faces of the fans who were convinced that GRRM had finished the series a while ago, but was waiting until the show was done to release the books? 😀

      Seriously, the ones for whom I still feel sorry are his publishers. They would have made a mint had this book come out 2+ years ago. Now, they’ll make enough for a breath mint.

      What probably is the scariest part is how much GRRM has said that he’s written over since 2016 (the first time that he gave us the January “I’m sorry, I really thought I’d have it done now” blog-post). The last couple of books were bloated messes. This one sounds like it might be an even more incoherent mess, unless he finally submits to proper editing.

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    9. I’m beyond caring at this point, mostly because I loved the show’s ending. If he finishes the books, great, if not, I still have the show.

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    10. Nick,

      In all fairness, I do have empathy for the big fella. That’s why I’ve suggested in the past that he throw in the towel and just announce that he can’t or won’t be able to finish writing the books.
      Yes, he is now “a 72 year old man who is responsible for creating a world and story that many of us have as our favorite.” He ought to be able to rest on his laurels, and enjoy his life.

      It seems obvious that for him, writing the books has become more like an overdue term paper, rather than a labor of love. One might say he’s lost that loving feeling, and he can’t go on…

      🎶(*Feels Musical Interlude coming on*) 🎶

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    11. Ten Bears,

      I think he can’t say that because it would be a very bad PR move that would negatively affect sales of his books and maybe even futuru Game of Thrones shows that HBO is making.

      He sold more than 90 million copies of ASOIAF thanks to illusion that the story is going to be finished. Once he says what everyone who follows his work in the last 20 years already knows the spell will be broken.

        Quote  Reply

    12. Wimsey,

      That was just one of popular conspiracy theories in this fandom.

      I remember that back in 2014 (7 years ago!) book fans expected The Winds of Winter to be announced after the credits for The Children. For some reason. The fact that it didn’t happen for just another reason for meltdown that fandom had after that episode.

      Also there was a theory that he is working on the both books at the same time. And then theory that HBO is forcing him to not publish the books.

      So many conspiracies because fandom can’t accept the simple fact that he is lost.

      And he had been lost for a very long time. Years before Benioff and Weiss thought about making this show. Years before general audience knew what The Iron Throne was.

      For more than 20 years he is struggling because he let the story explode after A Storm of Swords. Adding billion new characters and locations to already huge story was a death sentence for the series.

      Can you imagine great book with 20 POV characters? That’s what The Winds of Winter is supposed to be, once he brings everyone from Feast and Dance together.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Nick:
      Holy hell these comments are toxic as hell.
      Zero empathy for a 72 year old man who is responsible for creating a world and story that many of us have as our favorite.

      Zero empathy for the fact that he lost many people who were very close to him last year, and is probably about to lose many more. He also spent a lot of the year in almost complete isolation, which was very difficult for him.

      The pandemic was / is very hard on some people even if they didn’t get sick personally, and obviously he’s one of those people. Despite that fact he made a lot of progress on the book.

      All of these insulting and entitled comments towards him are disgusting, honestly. Have some goddamn respect.

      This is self-indulgent enabling of the worst kind. There are literally millions of people that have it worse than GRRM and must hustle each single day to get by while their relatives die entubed in some hospital, and they don’t give us this type of whine fest. Pitiful!

        Quote  Reply

    14. mau:
      Wimsey,

      That was just one of popular conspiracy theories in this fandom.

      I remember that back in 2014 (7 years ago!) book fans expected The Winds of Winter to be announced after the credits for The Children. For some reason. The fact that it didn’t happen for just another reason for meltdown that fandom had after that episode.

      Also there was a theory that he is working on the both books at the same time. And then theory that HBO is forcing him to not publish the books.

      So many conspiracies because fandom can’t accept the simple fact that he is lost.

      And he had been lost for a very long time. Years before Benioff and Weiss thought about making this show. Years before general audience knew what The Iron Throne was.

      For more than 20 years he is struggling because he let the story explode after A Storm of Swords. Adding billion new characters and locations to already huge story was a death sentence for the series.

      Can you imagine great book with 20 POV characters? That’s what The Winds of Winter is supposed to be, once he brings everyone from Feast and Dance together.

      He should have stuck to the original plan: Write a self-contained trilogy with a identifiable conclusion. If it catches on, do sequels. Or just do Wild Cards or anything that strikes your fancy. In any case, he wouldn’t be in this pickle.

        Quote  Reply

    15. mau:
      Ten Bears,

      I think he can’t say that because it would be a very bad PR move that would negatively affect sales of his books and maybe even futuru Game of Thrones shows that HBO is making.

      He sold more than 90 million copies of ASOIAF thanks to illusion that the story is going to be finished. Once he says what everyone who follows his work in the last 20 years already knows the spell will be broken.

      I’m not even sure he can tell his publisher that. Depends on what contract he has.

        Quote  Reply

    16. He should just swallow his pride and get a co-author (or a few) to help him sort through this mess. It’s obvious he can’t do it alone, whether it is due to his age, work load, lack of motivation, whatever. The story can still be his, just let others sort out the info coming out of his head into a draft which he can then go over, make his edit and present a final manuscript to his publisher/editor. It’s never going to be perfect anyway.

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    17. Nick,

      Nick, while I admire GRRM’s ability to start a good story he is a human being the same as the rest of us and I don’t worship him like he’s a divine being. GRRM’s comments about his progress on TWOW have started to sound much of a muchness in all honesty. Like him I’m getting on in years and am resigned to the fact I may never know the according to GRRM version of the end of ASOIAF – in case I don’t last that long. A lot of us have been somewhat isolated since the beginning of the pandemic (thank goodness for Zoom and Skype). I’ve had my first Covid-19 jab (I live in the English midlands) – no ill effects except for being very, very tired the afternoon afterwards. I don’t wish GRRM any ill will and I’m long past the stage when I was holding my breath waiting for news of a new book in the saga. You are a loyal fan of GRRM and I admire your loyalty.

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    18. flintstonewielder: This is self-indulgent enabling of the worst kind. There are literally millions of people that have it worse than GRRM and must hustle each single day to get by while their relatives die entubed in some hospital, and they don’t give us this type of whine fest. Pitiful!

      With the understanding that this pandemic sucks for everyone in so many different ways, at least the Big Kahuna has a boatload of money that affords him the financial security to ride out the sh*tstorm in relative comfort. As you noted, lots of people have to hustle to make a buck, e.g., expose themselves to infection at “front line” jobs as so-called “essential workers.” I’m sure most of these folks would gladly choose being confined to a house in New Mexico, rather than being forced to go out in public and risk contamination.

      Without minimizing the impact the pandemic has had on G’s psyche, I thought that even before there was any inkling about the deadly virus, lockdowns and shutdowns, GRRM’s intention was to go into seclusion to finish the books (or at least TWOW). If I recall, he had announced on his blog that he’d be foregoing traveling to conventions and other activities so he could stay at home and concentrate on ASOIAF. (I thought he also mentioned that unlike other writers, he’s not able to crank out pages on a laptop while sitting on a plane or in a hotel room.)

      In that regard, enforced seclusion because of Covid isn’t much different from the enforced seclusion he had professed he’d be imposing on himself, is it?

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    19. Mali:
      He should just swallow his pride and get a co-author (or a few) to help him sort through this mess. It’s obvious he can’t do it alone, whether it is due to his age, work load, lack of motivation, whatever. The story can still be his, just let others sort out the info coming out of his head into a draft which he can then go over, make his edit and present a final manuscript to his publisher/editor. It’s never going to be perfect anyway.

      Though I’m a “pre-books,” show-only fan, I’d bet a lot of exasperated book readers would be content with whatever incomplete, rough draft(s) GRRM has been able to churn out, even if they’re bloated or unpolished. (Weren’t the two most recent books criticized for being stuffed with filler and extraneous characters? They were released even though they were not ”going to be perfect anyway,” I assume.)

      Alternatively (and speaking only for myself and in hypothetical terms): While I understand GRRM fancies himself as a “gardener” rather than an “architect,” I would pay good money for a 50-page outline or synopsis of TWOW + ADOS produced by GRRM.
      Just something that in broad strokes provides the solutions to the mysteries, riddles, and unanswered questions he’s set up over the last quarter century since he started writing ASOIAF. Even if he locked away this summary in a safe until a date certain, to be opened if the books weren’t finished by then, fans might be comforted to know that they would be able to access the author’s intended conclusion(s) to his tale.

      E.g., that the Valonqar was Jon Snow aka Aegon 2.0, the little brother of Rhaegar’s two sons, and not Random Falling Brick
      #354; or that the Gravedigger was in fact Sandor Clegane, who’d be compelled to leave his new, peaceful life in the monastery in order to pull a flaming sword from a fire and fulfill his destiny as the Warrior of Light (Azor Ahai) and bring the dawn; or that Arya’s bi**ersweet ending will be to
      be stuck in a traditional role as Lady of Winterfell and then as Queen in the North instead of sailing off on a sea cruise; or that Rhaegar and Lyanna really had logical justifications for seemingly selfish actions that set the world on fire; or that there was a cogent reason why the WWs/Others were up to their old tricks again after hibernating for thousands of years.

      Just kidding. Sorry. There’s been so much fan speculating over the decades that it’s hard not to join in…

      As matters stand now, who could fault loyal book readers who have become convinced that despite the author’s assurances, they’ll never see the release of TWOW and ADOS?

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    20. Ten Bears: With the understanding that this pandemic sucks for everyone in so many different ways, at least the Big Kahuna has a boatload of money that affords him the financial security to ride out the sh*tstorm in relative comfort. As you noted, lots of people have to hustle to make a buck, e.g., expose themselves to infection at “front line” jobs as so-called “essential workers.”I’m sure most of these folks would gladly choose being confined to a house in New Mexico, rather than being forced to go out in public and risk contamination.

      Without minimizing the impact the pandemic has had on G’s psyche, I thought that even before there was any inkling about the deadly virus, lockdowns and shutdowns, GRRM’s intention was to go into seclusion to finish the books (or at least TWOW). If I recall, he had announced on his blog that he’d be foregoing traveling to conventions and other activities so he could stay at home and concentrate on ASOIAF. (I thought he also mentioned that unlike other writers, he’s not able to crank out pages on a laptop while sitting on a plane or in a hotel room.)

      In that regard, enforced seclusion because of Covid isn’t much different from the enforced seclusion he had professed he’d be imposing on himself, is it?

      Basically, it´ s just like “Stop the whining and don´t use Covid as a tear-jerk pretext. Just say *No tWoW in 2021 and won´t be thrown down a Kiwi volcano because that country has closed its borders*”. Might even get a chuckle out of that down.

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    21. Wimsey:
      Did sauropods lay big enough eggs to cover the faces of the fans who were convinced that GRRM had finished the series a while ago, but was waiting until the show was done to release the books?

      Seriously, the ones for whom I still feel sorry are his publishers. They would have made a mint had this book come out 2+ years ago. Now, they’ll make enough for a breath mint.

      What probably is the scariest part is how much GRRM has said that he’s written over since 2016 (the first time that he gave us the January “I’m sorry, I really thought I’d have it done now” blog-post). The last couple of books were bloated messes. This one sounds like it might be an even more incoherent mess, unless he finally submits to proper editing.

      The publishers will have to milk the special editions.
      In any case, nobody is really holding their breath for anything anymore: Some 5-6 years ago, a post like this would have gotten close to 900 comments within a couple of days. But now?

      When even the mainstream press starts getting snarky…

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2021/02/02/winds-of-winter-george-rr-martin-grrm-game-of-thrones-next-book-update/?sh=56743126587b

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    22. Ok, musical interlude time. Here again is a slice of soundtrack, courtesy of Michael Giacchino from one of my favourite movies, “Rogue One”:

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    23. mau: That was just one of popular conspiracy theories in this fandom.

      It is a weird aspect of fandoms: they frequently engage in a lot of conspiracy-theory type thinking. It leads to a lot of wildly inaccurate predictions. Still, it does not lead to talk of Jewish Space Lasers or people trying to overturn elections, so at least it is pretty harmless!

      mau:Can you imagine great book with 20 POV characters? That’s what The Winds of Winter is supposed to be, once he brings everyone from Feast and Dance together.

      Not easily! And definitely not here: there are five or six primary protagonists, and so many of the POV characters in Feast & Dance were not doing anything for the primary or even secondary protagonists, and thus nothing for the story. A story is supposed to be the pile that exists because of the needles: but here, it’s a pile of needles and hay such that you can hardly find the needles within the haystack, never mind the needle pile.

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    24. loco73,

      That’s nice. I really liked the quiet, soft parts of that piece in which it sounded like a harp playing (though I can’t differentiate musical instruments very well.)
      I guess I’d have to listen to the track while watching “Rogue One” to appreciate the music’s effectiveness.

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    25. Dame of Mercia: I’ve had my first Covid-19 jab (I live in the English midlands) – no ill effects except for being very, very tired the afternoon afterwards.

      What? You aren’t staggering around with your arms stretched out and moaning “Microsoft…. products…. Microsoft…. products…. Windows……..”

      Seriously, I envy you.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Hey, since we are talking about the GRRM getting some collaborators, why not partner up with James S.A. Corey aka Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck (who used to be the GRRM’s assistant once upon a time and thus familiar with him and his style)?!

      These two guys managed to finish the entire “The Expanse” saga comprising of nine novels (pretty hefty at that), five novellas and three short stories in about a decade. Somewhere in there they managed to also write for and act as producers for a TV series, arguably one of the best sci-fi shows ever (or at the very least in many years).

      “Leviathan Falls” the last novel is coming out in 2021 (“Leviathan Wakes” was the first back in 2011). Also the sixth, and for now at least, last season of the series (there may be some plans at Amazon Prime to continue the show…but for now it is paused because of the way the story proceeds after novel six…so lots of stuff to consider) should drop later towards the end of 2021.

      It’s a strange and pleasant feeling to be a fan of a sequence of novels that will actually conclude in a timely manner as well as a show that didn’t overtake the novels or ran out of source material, where the creators and writers of this world/universe were actively and directly involved. (And guess what there are tons of characters here as well)

      After a decade of GOT and the whole drama surrounding the books and the show…”The Expanse” feels like therapy. Here look at it this way, “The Expanse” was called “GOT in space”…so maybe a creative collaboration between the GRRM and James S.A. Corey may actually make more sense than meets the eye.

        Quote  Reply

    27. loco73:
      Hey, since we are talking about the GRRM getting some collaborators, why not partner up with James S.A. Corey aka Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck (who used to be the GRRM’s assistant once upon a time and thus familiar with him and his style)?!

      These two guys managed to finish the entire “The Expanse” saga comprising of nine novels (pretty hefty at that), five novellas and three short stories in about a decade. Somewhere in there they managed to also write for and act as producers for a TV series, arguably one of the best sci-fi shows ever (or at the very least in many years).

      “Leviathan Falls” the last novel is coming out in 2021 (“Leviathan Wakes” was the first back in 2011).Also the sixth, and for now at least, last season of the series (there may be some plans at Amazon Prime to continue the show…but for now it is paused because of the way the story proceeds after novel six…so lots of stuff to consider) should drop later towards the end of 2021.

      It’s a strange and pleasant feeling to be a fan of a sequence of novels that will actually conclude in a timely manner as well as a show that didn’t overtake the novels or ran out of source material, where the creators and writers of this world/universe were actively and directly involved. (And guess what there are tons of characters here as well)

      After a decade of GOT and the whole drama surrounding the books and the show…”The Expanse” feels like therapy. Here look at it this way, “The Expanse” was called “GOT in space”…so maybe a creative collaboration between the GRRM and James S.A. Corey may actually make more sense than meets the eye.

      Wanna go down THAT road? Steven Erikson wrote volumes 2 thru 10 of Malazan Book of the Fallen within a decade – and these are around 900 pages per volume.

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    28. Which is the REAL ending of this story: George’s books or D&D’s show? The show, of course! Why? Simple: because the former doesn’t exist and it never will. The chances of those books ever being finished is about the same as a black hole materializing at the center of the Earth and swallowing us all instantaneously.

      In all honesty, it’s perplexing, touching even, how D&D and George still talk about the books like George is definitely gonna finish them one day. Does anyone think that any of them truly believe it?

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    29. Farimer123: Does anyone think that any of them truly believe it?

      Believe? Yes. Think? No. But people believe things for one reason & one reason only: they desperately want it to be true, no matter how few facts support it or even how many facts contradict it.

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    30. Farimer123,

      The thing is, that let’s say, he manages to finally complete “The Winds Of Winter” at some point. If it has taken him a decade plus, to finish this one book, how much longer will it take him to finish “A Dream Of Spring”?! That is the question. It’s like one of those performance gymnasts who have a great routine but can’t stick the landing.

        Quote  Reply

    31. loco73: The thing is, that let’s say, he manages to finally complete “The Winds Of Winter” at some point. If it has taken him a decade plus, to finish this one book, how much longer will it take him to finish “A Dream Of Spring”?! That is the question. It’s like one of those performance gymnasts who have a great routine but can’t stick the landing.

      Yeah, that’s the issue I have too. I do think TWOW will come out… eventually… however, I think the chances for ADOS are that much less.

      Although, I don’t blame people for being optimistic. I still have a teeny tiny bit of hope, although I’m very tired of his “updates” and it’s pretty much like, “same story, different day.”

        Quote  Reply

    32. loco73:
      Hey, since we are talking about the GRRM getting some collaborators, why not partner up with James S.A. Corey aka Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck (who used to be the GRRM’s assistant once upon a time and thus familiar with him and his style)?!

      These two guys managed to finish the entire “The Expanse” saga comprising of nine novels (pretty hefty at that), five novellas and three short stories in about a decade. Somewhere in there they managed to also write for and act as producers for a TV series, arguably one of the best sci-fi shows ever (or at the very least in many years).

      “Leviathan Falls” the last novel is coming out in 2021 (“Leviathan Wakes” was the first back in 2011).Also the sixth, and for now at least, last season of the series (there may be some plans at Amazon Prime to continue the show…but for now it is paused because of the way the story proceeds after novel six…so lots of stuff to consider) should drop later towards the end of 2021.

      It’s a strange and pleasant feeling to be a fan of a sequence of novels that will actually conclude in a timely manner as well as a show that didn’t overtake the novels or ran out of source material, where the creators and writers of this world/universe were actively and directly involved. (And guess what there are tons of characters here as well)

      After a decade of GOT and the whole drama surrounding the books and the show…”The Expanse” feels like therapy. Here look at it this way, “The Expanse” was called “GOT in space”…so maybe a creative collaboration between the GRRM and James S.A. Corey may actually make more sense than meets the eye.

      I’m not sure if I would The Expanse GOT in space. It is a great show. I haven’t read the books but it’s too bad that GRRM doesn’t have someone to collaborate. I’ve listened to interviews with Ty and Daniel. They talk out scenes and one seemed to be more of the “world builder”. The comparison between GOT and The Expanse does make sense when you talk about building huge worlds. However GRRM is much more into family histories than The Expanse. I would say the Expanse’s world has more to do with locations and general history of the factions of people who lived there. You aren’t going to see an index of family trees in The Expanse. They just finished the 5th season. It was an excellent season that mixes character with action and special effects. The production quality is right up there with GOT. I was disappointed with ….

      Killing of Alex in the finale because the actor was fired for accusations of sexual assault. The death seemed rushed. I would have liked to have seen them re-cast Alex. I would have accepted a different actor. They could have found someone with a similar look. I would have accepted recasting someone like POD on GOT. I find it similar to recasting Daario . Alex. was one of the main crew but he was never at the front of the action. So I would have rather they stuck to the book story and just re cast him on the show. It’s another example of how lucky GOT was to have their main cast stick with them for 10 years. But GOT did have some recasts.

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    33. Tron79,

      I will correct something from my last comment…

      I said Alex was never in the front of the action. That’s not true. For me, it just didn’t feel like the story focused as much on Alex as it did the other main crew members (so I could have accepted a re-cast easier than other characters). However, I did feel for Alex’s family situation, and he had become a great pilot as part of the crew. He cared deeply about his home planet (Mars). They did focus episodes on his character’s journey to reunite with the family he abandoned on Mars, so it’s not fair to say they didn’t ever focus on him. I do think it’s fair to say the story is more about Holden (Steven Strait) (as more of Jon Snow leading role), Naomi (Dominque Tipper)(I’m not sure who she would be in GOT… I suppose Dany because of the love interest and the amount of screen time) and definitely Amos (Wes Chatham)(He’s similar to a Bronn character, but he had alot of screen time in season 5 and is a fan favorite. His pod cast with co-writer Ty is awesome too). In season 5 in particular, Naomi and Amos had the bulk of the story. I also wouldn’t have accepted recast of Bobbie Draper (Frankie Adams..she is awesome!!) and definitely not Chrisjen Avasarala (Shohreh Aghdashloo). But for whatever reason, the one character I would have accepted a re-cast for was Alex.

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    34. GRRM’s “updates” are honestly getting ridiculous now, at least in my opinion. Every year, his statements are literally the same. I think it would have been much better if he simply stopped commenting on TWOW alltogether because I’m starting to feel his statements would only make him more unpopular with people.

      I used to think GRRM is simply a slow writer but for the past couple years, especially since 2015, I honestly think now he doesn’t even have a clear idea about the intended story. Maybe the end points, but not the story. When he commented on differences & similarities regarding TV show ending, I’m starting to wonder if he even knows for sure how he wants to wrap up every character’s story. And to think that Benioff and Weiss were pretty much crucified by fans for the ending without consideration they had only a couple months to write & adapt GRRM’s unfinished story.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Adrianacandle: Yeah, that’s the issue I have too. I do think TWOW will come out… eventually… however, I think the chances for ADOS are that much less.

      Although, I don’t blame people for being optimistic. I still have a teeny tiny bit of hope, although I’m very tired of his “updates” and it’s pretty much like, “same story, different day.”

      I used to do something similar when I did programming projects for customers. I am a very slow programmer and it’s my least favorite thing to do, but the customer’s were asking, so I went with what the customers wanted. But I felt I had to give them some sort of update even though I made no progress…. It made me feel like they thought I was still thinking about them…. .That only works for so long. Eventually the customer wants to see the end product of what they have been paying you for for all those months. I did eventually finish those projects though, but it took me way too long and there were months I just couldn’t motivate myself to work on it. I wonder how much GRRM likes the writing nowadays or if he just likes doing other things more.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Tron79: I used to do something similar when I did programming projects for customers.I am a very slow programmer and it’s my least favorite thing to do, but the customer’s were asking, so I went with what the customers wanted.But I felt I had to give them some sort of update even though I made no progress…. It made me feel like they thought I was still thinking about them…. .That only works for so long.Eventually the customer wants to see the end product of what they have been paying you for for all those months.I did eventually finish those projects though, but it took me way too long and there were months I just couldn’t motivate myself to work on it.I wonder how much GRRM likes the writing nowadays or if he just likes doing other things more.

      Oh, George loves writing alright, just not this stuff. The big multi-volume epic is not his *thang*.

        Quote  Reply

    37. flintstonewielder: Oh, George loves writing alright, just not this stuff. The big multi-volume epic isnot his *thang*.

      Yes, I agree with you. He seems to love writing those Historical texts like Fire and Blood. He probably loves doing things like flowcharting all of the family trees.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Tron79: Yes, I agree with you.He seems to love writing those Historical texts like Fire and Blood. He probably loves doing things like flowcharting all of the family trees.

      Also: Editing, anything short on any topics, TV scripts, etc. – he likes it varied and *quick & dirty*. Which is OK, look at his publishing history, but which does not provide much hope for the future of aSoIaF.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Tron79,

      I think that the comparison was more referring to the decidedly adult, gritty and raw nature of both shows not the narrative structure or the character development.

      Although you could say that the large Houses and their allies could be considered factions. And also the fact that in both shows, people are fighting and squabbling amongst themselves against the backdrop of a larger, rising danger and evil…

        Quote  Reply

    40. Tron79,

      I used to do something similar when I did programming projects for customers. I am a very slow programmer and it’s my least favorite thing to do, but the customer’s were asking, so I went with what the customers wanted. But I felt I had to give them some sort of update even though I made no progress…. It made me feel like they thought I was still thinking about them…. .That only works for so long. Eventually the customer wants to see the end product of what they have been paying you for for all those months. I did eventually finish those projects though, but it took me way too long and there were months I just couldn’t motivate myself to work on it. I wonder how much GRRM likes the writing nowadays or if he just likes doing other things more.

      I totally get that because… that’s exactly what I do too. I get the procrastination, I get the succumbing to distraction, I get the frustration and avoidance of the frustration source. But I also still felt I owed the client or recipient an update (thus the rocket that’s taken a year to do — so many issues, a learning curve, stupid mistakes, and my avoidance of it — but I’ve still felt the need to give relevant parties updates).

      Still, I am tired of GRRM’s updates nonetheless. I can sympathize, and I do, but I just kind of wonder… is this stuff news anymore?

      He seems to love writing those Historical texts like Fire and Blood. He probably loves doing things like flowcharting all of the family trees.

      Yes!! And I think GRRM loves to world-build as well… but sometimes, it just gets too much and results in where I suspect GRRM is now.

      Stuck.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Tron79,

      I think that the comparison was more referring to the decidedly adult, gritty and raw nature of both shows not the narrative structure or the character development.

      Although you could say that the large Houses and their allies could be considered factions. And also the fact that in both shows, people are fighting and squabbling amongst themselves against the backdrop of a larger, rising danger and evil…

        Quote  Reply

    42. loco73:
      Tron79,

      I think that the comparison was more referring to the decidedly adult, gritty and raw nature of both shows not the narrative structure or the character development.

      Although you could say that the large Houses and their allies could be considered factions. And also the fact that in both shows, people are fighting and squabbling amongst themselves against the backdrop of a larger, rising danger and evil…

      Good points. Yes I can see a pretty strong parallel with the existential threat from the Others (TAOTD) on GOT and the existential threat from the mysterious beings who created the protomolecule on the Expanse. I also think there are parallels between Jon Snow and Holden on the Expanse. They both can see that everyone needs to unite to battle bigger enemy. Holden is a little more like Ned where he does the “right” thing. Jon tries but he will sometimes stray. Book Jon in particular has a way of self rationalizing.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      ”I used to think GRRM is simply a slow writer but for the past couple years, especially since 2015, I honestly think now he doesn’t even have a clear idea about the intended story…”

      “I’m not questioning your progress. I’m denying its existence.”
      – Tyrion Lannister

        Quote  Reply

    44. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      I totally get that because… that’s exactly what I do too. I get the procrastination, I get the succumbing to distraction, I get the frustration and avoidance of the frustration source. But I also still felt I owed the client or recipient an update (thus the rocket that’s taken a year to do — so many issues, a learning curve, stupid mistakes, and my avoidance of it — but I’ve still felt the need to give relevant parties updates).

      Still, I am tired of GRRM’s updates nonetheless. I can sympathize, and I do, but I just kind of wonder… is this stuff news anymore?

      Yes!! And I think GRRM loves to world-build as well… but sometimes, it just gets too much and results in where I suspect GRRM is now.

      Stuck.

      True. I hope he’s not totally stuck. I wrote in that last thread that I’ve only been waiting about a year a half since I finished reading the last book, so I haven’t gone through all of the phases of waiting 10 years like you! I saw a glimpse in these latset words that he wasn’t stuck and that he had figured out how to get to the end of TWOW (bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion in a few hundred more pages). I’m sure I was just reading into his words what I wanted to hear. What phase of loss/waiting is that one where you hear what you want to hear?? Others have had a lot more experience over 10 years of reading the promises… I latched on to the one glimpse of hope that probably weren’t really in his words and it’s just what I wanted, since I’m still a newbee at waiting. It would have been great if he would have considered bringing on a trusted collaborator. He could have bounced ideas back and forth, and perhaps the collaborator would have had the drive to make more progress. I think fans would still be thrilled to have the finished books as long as he was still part of the collaboration. Anyway, I’m dreaming again…. I have a problem with dreaming. I wonder if GRRM realized what he was implying when he titled the last book “A Dream of Spring”….

        Quote  Reply

    45. Ten Bears:
      Nick,

      In all fairness, I do have empathy for the big fella. That’s why I’ve suggested in the past that he throw in the towel and just announce that he can’t or won’t be able to finish writing the books.
      Yes, he is now “a 72 year old man who is responsible for creating a world and story that many of us have as our favorite.” He ought to be able to rest on his laurels, and enjoy his life.

      It seems obvious that for him, writing the books has become more like an overdue term paper, rather than a labor of love. One might say he’s lost that loving feeling, and he can’t go on…

      🎶(*Feels Musical Interlude coming on*) 🎶

      Musical Interlude
      From GRRM to his estranged muse

      🎶 You lost that lovin’ feeling
      Oh, that lovin’ feeling.
      You lost that loving feeling
      Now it’s gone, gone, gone…🎶
      ***
      🎶Bring back that loving feeling,
      Whoa, that loving feeling.
      Bring back that loving feeling
      ‘Cause it’s gone, gone, gone
      And I can’t go on….🎶

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOnYY9Mw2Fg&t=0s

      “You’ve Lost That Loving Feeling” (1964) – The Righteous Brothers

        Quote  Reply

    46. GRRM is a broken record at this point. It’s been five years since he thought he could finish the book in a few months. Now he says this past year was his most productive year of writing the book in a decade, and yet he needs another similarly productive year in order to finish it. But I still sympathize with him. He created this world but the world took on its own life and passed him right by.

      On the other hand there’s a guy like David Gerrold whose last book in the Chtorr Series was published in 1993. He pops up every few years to say the book is almost done. Four years ago he announced that he was “done” with books five AND six and just needed some money to finish editing them and did a gofundme which his fans gave more than he asked for. Four years later…. nothing. The guy literally scams his fans out of money with their desire to see an end to the series. Now he’s got a patreon where you can let him fleece you monthly.

      I save my ire for the people that deserve it.

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    47. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Hear, hear. When someone says that George is just a slow writer, I respond “bullshit.”

      A Game of Thrones – August 1, 1996
      A Clash of Kings – November 16, 1998
      A Storm of Swords – August 8, 2000

      Altogether, that’s just shy of 2.5K pages. And those books are universally agreed by everyone with any interest in the books to be goddamn awesome. ASOIAF was supposed to only be six books, not seven. Thus, those books together represent the first half of the series in George’s original, unspoiled plan. But then, after that third book… he COMPLETELY lost the plot. Expanding the cast of characters beyond the first half of a story that already has such a large roster? Bad idea to begin with, and TERRIBLE execution.

      I’ve seen some of the feedback fans gave when “A Feast for Crows” and “A Dance of Dragons” were released in 2005 and 2011, respectively. “We waited 5/6 years for this?” “Feels like it was written by a ghostwriter.” “In desperate need of tighter editing.” It was mixed at best (though whaddya know – the moment D&D passed the books and started to deviate from them.. *snap* suddenly the last two books are masterpieces).
      The truth is neither of those books really stand on their own, unlike the previous three installments. They’re bloated, unfocused messes and completely unsuited as-is to television adaptation. Thank our lucky stars D&D didn’t follow them exactly, or else then they’d be totally dependent on George for more source material and we’d STILL be there to this day.

      I can’t know precisely what happened that changed George’s writing approach so drastically in the 21st century, but if he ever wants to finish the books, he needs to go back to whatever approach he had before. Better yet, take Feast, Dance, and whatever he’s done for Winds up to this point and discard them. Then spend the next few years rewriting Feast and Dance to be one single book in the fashion of the first three books. Then do the same for Winds and Spring. Just cut out all the fluff, the fat, the filler, the meandering, the wandering, the meaningless side characters and extraneous subplots that only serve to bloat the story.

      MUSICAL INTERLUDE (this one’s for you Georgie):

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=129kuDCQtHs

      I get up in the evening
      And I ain’t got nothing to say
      I come home in the morning
      I go to bed feeling the same way
      I ain’t nothing but tired
      Man I’m just tired and bored with myself
      Hey there baby, I could use just a little help

      You can’t start a fire
      You can’t start a fire without a spark
      This gun’s for hire
      Even if we’re just dancing in the dark

      Messages keep getting clearer
      Radio’s on and I’m moving ’round my place
      I check my look in the mirror
      Wanna change my clothes, my hair, my face
      Man I ain’t getting nowhere
      I’m just living in a dump like this
      There’s something happening somewhere
      Baby I just know there is

      Can’t start a fire
      You can’t start a fire without a spark
      This gun’s for hire
      Even if we’re just dancing in the dark

      You sit around getting older
      There’s a joke, here somewhere and it’s on me
      I shake this world off my shoulders
      Come on baby the laugh’s on me

      Stay on the streets of this town
      And they’ll be carving you up alright
      They say you gotta stay hungry
      Hey baby I’m just about starving tonight
      I’m dying for some action
      I’m sick of sitting ’round here trying to write this book
      I need a love reaction
      Come on now baby gimme just one look

      Can’t start a fire sitting ’round crying over a broken heart
      This gun’s for hire
      Even if we’re just dancing in the dark
      You can’t start a fire worrying about your little world falling apart
      This gun’s for hire
      Even if we’re just dancing in the dark
      Even if we’re just dancing in the dark
      Even if we’re just dancing in the dark
      Even if we’re just dancing in the dark
      Hey baby

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    48. Tron79,

      Tron, I did my book catch-up circa 2013-2014 (the Roy Dotrice audio books were on YouTube then) and I had every confidence that book 6 of ASOIAF would be out before the TV series caught up. Boy, was I wrong there. I’ll give the two Ds credit for making me want to read the books. I didn’t hate AFFC or ADWD but I liked them less than the first 3 books (says she for the 999th time). I’d started to go off book Dany by the end of ADWD.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Tron79: True. I hope he’s not totally stuck. I wrote in that last thread that I’ve only been waiting about a year a half since I finished reading the last book, so I haven’t gone through all of the phases of waiting 10 years like you! I saw a glimpse in these latset words that he wasn’t stuck and that he had figured out how to get to the end of TWOW (bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion in a few hundred more pages). I’m sure I was just reading into his words what I wanted to hear. What phase of loss/waiting is that one where you hear what you want to hear?? Others have had a lot more experience over 10 years of reading the promises… I latched on to the one glimpse of hope that probably weren’t really in his words and it’s just what I wanted, since I’m still a newbee at waiting. It would have been great if he would have considered bringing on a trusted collaborator. He could have bounced ideas back and forth, and perhaps the collaborator would have had the drive to make more progress. I think fans would still be thrilled to have the finished books as long as he was still part of the collaboration. Anyway, I’m dreaming again…. I have a problem with dreaming. I wonder if GRRM realized what he was implying when he titled the last book “A Dream of Spring”….

      Well, I do hope you’re right! And I think we all have our own dreams of spring… Mine is finishing this stupid rocket…

      I think (think) I once heard GRRM speak against bringing on other writers to ASOIAF but he could have simply been talking about in the ghostwriter sense. And he has collaborated with early fans Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson on The World of Ice and Fire — they were early adopters of the books and who GRRM said knew his world better than he did (a comment on how inside out they knew his world, not that he didn’t know his world. He’d use them as fact checkers).

      I mean, it’d probably be a good idea to bring in somebody else, somebody else who he could bounce ideas off of and help him edit down, keep him from going on meandering tangents.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Dame of Mercia: I did my book catch-up circa 2013-2014 (the Roy Dotrice audio books were on YouTube then) and I had every confidence that book 6 of ASOIAF would be out before the TV series caught up.

      I had this hope in 2013/2014 too! Simpler times… 🙂

      Yeah, the show got me into the books too. It was my internship in the Netherlands and I remember wanting something to read on the train/cafe/stations that wasn’t more language documents. As fate would have it, I saw the first episode, found out it was based on books, downloaded all four books (at the time) to my iPhone and read them pretty much all in one go 🙂 Made train station waits so much nicer!

      Also, I’ve been meaning to ask you how you’re doing on your covid vaccination jab — and I’m very glad you got it!! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    51. Ten Bears: Maybe if George could pull a young Courtney Cox from the audience [at 3:19 of the “Dancing in the Dark” video], he’d be creatively inspired…

      You know, a young Courtney Cox may have made a nice Ashara Dayne…? 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    52. Dame of Mercia:
      Adrianacandle,

      No side effects to the jab except for tiredness which was worst on the afternoon after the jab.

      I’m glad to hear there were no side effects apart from that afternoon’s fatigue 🙂 I don’t know anyone else who has gotten vaccinated yet, you’re the first I’ve talked to that has!

        Quote  Reply

    53. Farimer123:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I’ve seen some of the feedback fans gave when “A Feast for Crows” and “A Dance of Dragons” were released in 2005 and 2011, respectively. “We waited 5/6 years for this?” “Feels like it was written by a ghostwriter.” “In desperate need of tighter editing.” It was mixed at best (though whaddya know – the moment D&D passed the books and started to deviate from them.. *snap* suddenly the last two books are masterpieces).
      The truth is neither of those books really stand on their own, unlike the previous three installments. They’re bloated, unfocused messes and completely unsuited as-is to television adaptation. Thank our lucky stars D&D didn’t follow them exactly, or else then they’d be totally dependent on George for more source material and we’d STILL be there to this day.

      Very much this. I purchased AFFC in 2011 when it got released in our country, and ADWD a year later and I fully remember that AFFC’s online reception was NOT good. I’m not saying nobody liked it but among the fandom, it was widely considered as underwhelming book, even compared to ADWD. When the TV show was already fully underway, AFFC and ADWD weren’t popular even on westeros.org forums. But when news started coming out that S5 will adapt both AFFC and ADWD combined, suddenly these two books became untouchable and as you said, “masterpieces”. Everyone was now suddenly talking about “Broken men” speech (which I don’t remember at all up to this day, despite various re-reads of AFFC in 2011-2014)… when Ellaria was changed for TV, everyone now quoted her probably only time in the entire book series when she got actual dialogue like it’s the climax of that book… when Stannis burned Shireen, people quoted book Stannis from ADWD all over the place like he’s the best that ever happened in entire ASOIAF story. For me personally, I actually started disliking AFFC and ADWD even more after S5 because I started asking myself why on Earth was I wasting my energy reading those bloated books if both stories were able to be effectively adapted in (in my opinion) way more thrilling S5.

      Even more, these days, it’s a consensus among fandom GoT only goes downhill with every season, especially after S4 because according to people on internet, Benioff and Weiss are incompetent writers and they deserve absolutely no credit for any season success (that’s all on GRRM and his books according to them). S7 was pretty much loved when it was released, now it’s considered horrible. S6 was universally loved when it was released, with many proclaiming it as the greatest GoT season… now it’s firm consensus the show was already going very much downhill there and that people who enjoyed it were just dumb and blinded by visual spectacle. A few days ago, someone even wrote to me on Youtube when I told them about Benioff’s and Weiss’s original 70-episode plan and stuff they got from GRRM and such, that Benioff and Weiss are clearly terrible writers because even if the ending comes from GRRM, they should have changed it because if they were good writers, they would know half of that stuff wouldn’t fly with fans and they owe fans an ending the fans want. Like seriously??

        Quote  Reply

    54. Farimer123,

      Oh and also, when I stated there I very much enjoyed S7/S8 and that I have “The Long Night” on my no.1 spot on my episode ranklist, “The Bells” on my no.5 spot and “The Iron Throne” on my no.14 spot, people said to me I should be forever ashamed of myself and that people like me are the problem that we got such trainwreck season.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I’ve been abused on YouTube too, insulted, harassed, and on about far more things than GoT. I was part of this collective once and doxxed. Got my phone number and everything. It’s… YouTube. YouTube and most social media platforms give people the platform to be absolute jerks because they can be from the safety of their anon status behind their computer. Social media is kind of “buyer beware”. YouTubers have horror stories over the kinds of comments, doxing, and harassment they receive online. Perhaps avoid these kind of areas if they’re really upsetting?

      It’s fine that you enjoyed those episodes, that’s great. However, people are going to have different opinions, opinions that may not always match yours. I am sick to death of the season 8 fights, frankly, and am looking forward to discussing different things. On the other side of things, I’ve seen some bashing of AFFC and ADWD. I don’t really agree with some of these criticisms here (some but not all) but people are going to feel how they’re going to feel. Hopefully, though, they’re civil about it. On YouTube/Twitter/etc.? It’s a rarity.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Not to condone people being jerks though. Sadly, this is what many people choose to do with their anonymity on the internet: insult and attack those who disagree with them. It’s definitely a problem in many many areas and has been for years. That online friend I mentioned a few threads back who died, she worked tirelessly online in controversial areas, devoting much of her work to preventing victimization of children online. She’s received death threats, rape threats, etc. and so much hate online. Social media platforms in general are cesspools for this. It’s definitely a platform for more extremist views, the moderate views are either never posted because these are the people who are likely not to care so much as to get embroiled in an online spat or they’re drowned out. I’d definitely recommend avoiding these areas in the interest of mental health though however you can.

      I remember first getting a taste of cyber bullying in 1998 when I was in grade school (using ICQ! Nostalgia!) It was pretty awful. Unfortunately, where I read that people had hope for the internet being some sort of information-sharing utopia, well… there’s always a dark side to that.

      Like most things.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Tron79,

      Honestly, I actually agree and am in a way glad that they went the way they did in the show with the character. The [ spoiler ] accusations and controversy with Cas Anvar are for now just that. Accusations and controversy. Everything here is alleged and that is important to remember. Regardless of what “investigation” they did behind the scenes. That was mostly for show and to cover their own derrieres in so far as liability and lawsuis. Unless and until he is charged with something and found guilty before the law, I am sorry but I’ll remain skeptical. I’ve seen far too many lives destroyed on accusations that later turn out to be lies, innuendo, search for money, controversy etc. A case such as this should not get decided in public, or in tabloids or on the internet. It is why we have laws and a justice system, imperfect though they may be. Victims have the right to be heard and taken seriously (not believed blindly and without question) and the accused have the right to defend themselves (also not to be believed blindly and without question). After all “innocent before guilty” still has to mean something or the whole thing crashes. Also In terms of the show, recasting the character this late into the series, would have been rather awkward and probably caused more questions. I think they chose that least bad option they had. I mean look at how they re-cast Avasarala’s husband from first season, and that didn’t really work too well because the original actor was a better fit. And that was just a secondary, or even background character. [ / spoiler]

      So we will see what happens…

        Quote  Reply

    58. Adrianacandle,

      I suppose the people who used to write unsigned letters have now transferred to the internet. I won’t mention any names of channels but a few years ago I came across some weird conspiracy theories on YouTube (my TV had broken at the time). I think I mentioned before that somebody had mentioned that he thought a UK former glamour model, Katie Price, was really transgender and somebody accused me of being her “You sound like HIM – I know you’re him, I know you’re him”. Bonkers! We’ve got people in the UK who think David Icke (who avers that the British royal family are lizard people) is bona fide. I may have mentioned that before. The confinement because of Covid-19 has made people more susceptible to believing weird things I believe.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Dame of Mercia:
      Adrianacandle,

      I suppose the people who used to write unsigned letters have now transferred to the internet.I won’t mention any namesof channels but a few years ago I came across some weird conspiracy theories on YouTube (my TV had broken at the time).I think I mentioned before that somebody had mentioned that he thought a UK former glamour model, Katie Price, was really transgender and somebody accused me of being her “You sound like HIM – I know you’re him, I know you’re him”.Bonkers!We’ve got people in the UK who think David Icke (who avers that the British royal family are lizard people) is bona fide. I may have mentioned that before.The confinement because of Covid-19 has made people more susceptible to believing weird things I believe.

      Yikes!!

      And definitely I think COVID and quarantine may be playing a part. I think people get bored and with boredom comes this kind of stuff. And stuff can get really weird. In some cases, there are those who are just looking for reasons to be upset and cancel people over, like in the YouTube community. Some of those “cancellations” are well-deserved, some… well, Jenna Marbles ended up cancelling herself to get away from it all after a 10-year run on YouTube.

      And there are those going kind of stir-crazy, stuck at home, which isn’t the nicest place for one’s mind sometimes. I know I’ve gotten a bit more depressed having not seen people for weeks and weeks, going to gatherings, meeting at a cafe, parties, etc. Some odd mind stuff can happen then.

      Oh! GoT-related, I’m watching season 2 of Snowpiercer and it features an evil Sean Bean! 😀 He’s been great so far!!

        Quote  Reply

    60. I had to google Snowpiercer as it’s name was unfamiliar to me. I recognised Jamie Bell’s name and Tilda Swinton. I may have linked this before but here’s a young Tilda Swinton from a Scots show circa 1990 called ‘Your Cheatin’ Heart’. I don’t think it was a show that was known outside the UK – it was set in a Scots version of the country and western scene – a comedy-drama with a crime element. I think Tilda has a decent singing voice in this. https://youtu.be/VuGAF_qd_HI

        Quote  Reply

    61. Adrianacandle:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      It’s fine that you enjoyed those episodes, that’s great. However, people are going to have different opinions, opinions that may not always match yours. I am sick to death of the season 8 fights, frankly, and am looking forward to discussing different things. On the other side of things, I’ve seen some bashing of AFFC and ADWD. I don’t really agree with some of these criticisms here (some but not all) but people are going to feel how they’re going to feel. Hopefully, though, they’re civil about it. On YouTube/Twitter/etc.? It’s a rarity.

      For me there’s a big difference between having a different opinion, such as “I don’t like (insert a character)” or “I’m not pleased with (certain story twist)” and fan entitlement, which results in shaming the producers in this case and wishing them death threats and such… even statements like “I wasted 8 years of my life watching this TV show.” That’s something that I find disgusting, no better word, and unforgivable in terms of being part of a fansite. If someone dislikes GoT or some other TV show that I love, fine, I’ll accept it and simply won’t talk to them about it, no bad blood – when I worked at pharmaceutical company over summer last year, one coworker loved GoT ending, two other co-workers thought the ending is a mess. When I stated I loved the ending, those two co-workers simply accepted that and we didn’t discuss GOT further while me and that other coworker had the nerdy talk about it.

      But if someone insults me for loving something they don’t and starts with this “I wasted…” stuff, it will make me sick, no better word. That’s worst-of-the-worst when it comes to fandom for me. And yes, while I don’t approve getting personal at all, it’s worse in my eyes for getting insulted for loving something, instead of hating something, because love is a positive emotion that drives the good in this world while hate is everything the opposite. SO insulting someone for liking something is… nothing less but horrible to me.

      And it’s not only GoT… when I was still an admin of LOST group back in 2016-January 2020, I used to recruit people from official LOST page. Up to this day, people rage about the show in most personal way possible and I noticed how many people still don’t get the ending… when I tried to explain the ending for them on that official page, I was called idiot, “unbelievably stupid” and they didn’t-listen-a-thing. Not even saying “Oh, okay, I misunderstood, but I am still not fan of it”. I don’t even understand the concept why do people feel the need to berserk 10 years after it finished. Ironically, many people who joined our community were incredibly surprised how were we able to sustain such positivitiy-focused group (in terms of that you could feel that majority of members were there in order to love the TV show) which indicated that the main page was toxic and people who actually appreciated the TV show did not want to talk there. I wonder if something similar will happen with GoT in time.

      And while it’s easy to say to someone like me “Some people have different opinion”, I know from my own 3+ years admin experience that it works both ways and more than often in that community, people that focused the most on what they disliked turned out to be the most toxic to people with different (more positive opinion). One of the most annoying types of posts that used to appear in that LOST community was “Am I the only who hates (insert a character – usually a protagonist that already has a passionate hate-base)?” – Just like that. That post didn’t even provide any form of constructive discussion. And whenever a post like that appeared, a bunch of people who NEVER participated in the community otherwise appeared and spewed their hate. Of course in 3+ years of admining it, you get to remember their names. Of course, we admins and other members who loved that character often tried to turn such post into something more constructive, usually commenting our appreciation for the character and challenging the maker of the post or the people commenting WHY they don’t like the mentioned character. And I can tell you that in 95% of the cases, it always ended the same… we usually got very simplified answer in terms of why they hate them that more than often contradicted the story itself, while completely denying character’s positive traits (that were also established canon-wise). Of course, we tried to continue the constructive discussion about the CHARACTER and then almost always, the original maker of the post got very irritated and nasty – “I’m allowed to have an opinion! You’re bullying me!” – literally, people who never participated in anything but hate posts got incredibly annoyed when it turned out that they can’t freely spew hate without sparking challenging appreciative discussion from people who loved the character. They were so loud about “I’m allowed to have a (hate-filled) opinion” but didn’t want people with opposite (more appreciative) opinion commenting. And to make matters worse, members who were generally appreciative towards the TV show and eventually annoyed by such hate-posts started to get angry not at people making those posts, but at us admins! “Admins, why do you allow such posts to appear?” “I’m gettig tired by this negativity. Admins, do something!” – and believe it or not, we admins found ourselves in very ungrateful situation because on one hand, we didn’t want to be controlling and overy censor-focused, but on other hand, we could lose some great members.

      I wish to say that we got our happy ending, but sadly we didn’t. Bittersweet conclusion at best. Our whole recipe for success of this community was that members liked us admins as people and trusted us, not tremble in fear when an admin badge appeared in chat. We wished people to consider us fans before admins first and we actively participated in disucssions, made posts, be-friended people. 2017 was our prime year in terms of “high spirits” in the group… it was thriving, members were very engaged and for most of the time respectful and had trust in us and most importantly, we admins were good friends. There were 10 of us then, 8 daily-active ones, and our admin chat was like hanging out with a group of friends.. When I started admining myself, the group was 3400 members strong, and we climbed to 10000 by the beginning of next year. Sure, there were some situations to solve and moments to slam our fist on the table but those happened every now and then and it almost never hurt the community itself. With every month, the community felt stronger and for the first time in my life, I believed it’s possible to have a community that thrives on positivity and appreciation. But sadly, it all went on a downward spiral, very subtly in 2018, but prominently in 2019. I’ve been out of the community for a year now and I kept asking myself where it went wrong and I know now… we became too ambitious. We wished to be “the” LOST community on Facebook, so we kept promoting our group on official page and more and more members flowed into our group. By the beginning of 2020, we were close to 20000… but that was our undoing compared to what we used to have. We were bigger but we lost pretty much everything else that we had.

      See, it was easy to moderate group back in 2017… we were energic, good friends and every now and then, we had some tough decision to make. Some ban or conflict resolution or something like that. Now we had situations almost every single day! Even if the % majority of members were still positivity-and-appreciation-focused, the absolute number of negativity-focused ones now very much increased, which meant encountering the nasty stuff way more often…consequently much bigger pressure on us admins and I believe it started to take mental toll of us. As I said before, one of the crucial things of running the community was befriending members so we admins weren’t superiors and members our subordinates. With such massive community, this became harder and we admins started to become more and more alienated from the mass, more feared than loved, more fear-respected than trusted. And what’s more, increased amount of moderation required expanding our admin team so we had to recruit more people. All nice members, I don’t deny that, but when a group of 8 friends expands to a group of 17 people, things…change. Suddenly, we weren’t a small group of friends hanging out together anymore. When 8 people sit down at the table, they can have a very pleasant time together and all get fully involved in mutual conversation. When 17 people sit down at the table… it’s hard to have one mutual flowing conversation as friends. It becomes more of a meeting and small.. groups begin to form. Also, with bigger amount of people, national & language barrier also began to show. When there were 8 of us, there were 4 from US, one from Argentina, one from UK, one from Bosnia and me from Slovenia – we functioned very well because we were a diverse group. When there were 17 of us, there were 12 from US, one from Argentina, two from UK, one from Bosnia and me from Slovenia, with consideration that the two original admins from Argentina and UK gradually stopped actively participating…. this is what I mean with national barrier. Before, we stood out as individuals, now… not anymore. Admins from US were incredibly like-minded in everything, almost like a hive mind, and it more and more happened that decisions started being made with only some admins needing to agree between each other. Me and my girlfriend on other hand started feeling very side-lined, even more because we were from different countries and it turned out we were less compatible to work as hive-mind, being more firm to voice our own opinions when it comes to making decisions. We more than often started arguing… and the constant demand for group moderation started to drain us admins. It became so noticable. Everyone was quicker to anger, there was passive feeling of melancholy in group chat, the feeling of friends hanging out together was lost and replaced with more formal feeling, like attending a business meeting. If we admins disagreed on something, it wasn’t a friendly disagreement anymore… it felt like a formal serious matter. And the final nail was when a group of admins started posting some very sexually suggestive memes in admin chat and me and my girlfriend asked them to stop/tone it down as it was making us uncomfortable… they immediately took it personally, eventually some of them created a separate chat for fooling around and our main chat lost even more of the daily chatter and became strictly formal. Eventually, it became too much… I noticed more and more how my girlfriend was becoming unhappy. mentioning more and more often she regrets becoming an admin (even though she was completely blissful in 2017 in terms of it – we weren’t a couple then yet though) and even to me, moderating the group wasn’t entertainment anymore but obligation and I was in very busy period of my life. It eventually came to my ear that admins are displeased with me too and that they planned to confront me with some ultimatums… I tried to make it work so hard, trying to bring back the friendly feeling from early years… but with no effort.

      WHen my girlfriend had enough one day and decided to leave the admin team, I immediately did so myself too because I would pretty much lose my closest friend in admin chat and one of the only ones who were not part of the hive mind. And in following 4 weeks, I recived nothing but hostility from a couple admins in the group… passively removing my posts, speaking to me in extremely formal tone, like 3 years of friendship never existed. I left… and so did my girlfriend. And I cried on that day. I cried because I felt majority of past 3 years were a lie. This community literally held me up in 2016/2017 when I was mentally in dark place… helped me re-kindle my desire to look forward to every day, and admins I got to know in that year were better friends to me than any person I got to know at university then. Or at least that’s what I thought… then 3 years later, it became source of pain and misery and it hurts up to this day for me… it forever scarred my opinion on fandoms.

      Sorry for this big detour but I wished to share my experience which I consider my biggest failure in fandom life. I said up there the conclusion was bittersweet… it really was becuase by leaving the community, I was actually able to save friendship bonds with majority of the admins. In fact, not being there anymore is what rekindled them. There are two admins that I immediately unfriended and have zero regrets about that, but there were three (two from the golden era) that I wasn’t sure about because I couldn’t ignore all the past months of friendship. I decided to give them a chance and I chose right. Now we’re on good terms and while not directly to me, they admitted to my girlfriend they misjudged me and were too harsh on me. And another admin that I had no intention of unfriending in first place actually came forward and apologized to me for not standing up for me when other admins mistreated me and especially for sharing some very sensitive thing about me with them, that I confided her in secrecy, which ended in them severely misjudging me. And ironically, another admin who was also my first online friend and I bickered directly with her by far the most in admin chat (due to both me and her being stubborn XD), actually remained the most consistent friend with me, not counting my girlfriend of course, even after this ugly matter, even leaving me messages of support through CoVID months when I was really on edge with nerves and suffered panic attacks.. That’s something that really positively surprised me… so yes, there’s still a “sweet” part in this failure of mine in terms of fandom.

      WotW is now literally the only fansite left where I still remotely participate, not counting a cat group on FB… mainly because it’s impossible for me to talk about anything GoT related anywhere else. I did learn that I would never accept any admin position again and that when a fandom grows too big, it sadly won’t thrive on positivity anymore and when that happens, I need to walk out of the door and never look back.

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    62. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      First, thank-you so much for telling that to me, Erik. And that must have been really, really painful. I’m also glad things ended up somewhat well 🙂 Thanks again for telling me all this.

      I have noticed this can happen with communities when they blow up in size, especially on the internet, and sometimes cliques do form. I’ve never experienced country-based cliques but other kind of cliques. I have a friend who used to admin Gossip Guru and she’d have to oversee thousands of members and the drama, the politics, the arguments, it was exhausting for her. I think part of her enjoys it though because she’s still at it on another site but some of what you described is similar to what she experienced.

      I agree that personal insults/attacks/threats are not acceptable and those have been hurled at me as well (especially on social media). That’s where I draw the boundary too. Everything else though — I don’t think it’s possible control people’s personal preferences, feelings about something, or reasons for liking/disliking something though, as much we feel it sucks. My first fandom lesson in that was Buffy when I had friends who didn’t like it and crapped on it, which hurt so much! ;; Even the musical!! The musical!!! Still, I think those kinds of things are out of our control. Hopefully, people will eventually move on.

      Yeah, Kevin has talked to me a bit about the LOST fandom. I knew some of it too really briefly (I watched from 2007-2010). I was on Television Without Pity at the time (which closed in 2014) and I think I got out shortly before some of the craziness really started to hit. Well, TWOP is the only place I’d go to for television stuff. Their recaps were amazing XD

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    63. Adrianacandle,

      Well, I’m pleased you read through entire essay of mine. It’s quite a demanding read 😅I forgot to mention above that obviously, the most beautiful thing that came out of that LOST community is that I met my girlfriend. From two nerdy LOST fans back in 2016, we soon became friends and since we got to know each other, there was barely any day that we wouldn’t chat with each other online and eventually, she joined the admin team herself and our bond only strengthened. We were very like-minded and in several months, it was obvious a deep bond was forming between us, despite not knowing each other in person yet. We became best friends who were always there for each other and our friendship stretched way beyond the LOST community. We eventually got a chance to meet each other in person in 2018, about a year and a half since we met each other online and in the months before that, it’s clear to me now that we were already becoming more than friends, only that we were both in denial for each other’s feelings. This first meeting just confirmed that to us as it simply wasn’t the same for us when we parted ways… about a month later, we made feelings known for each other and three months after that when we met in person again, we officially became a couple. Now we’ve been together for two years and a half, and we’ve known each other for 4 years and a half. CUrrent CoVID situation is a bit of a problem for us meeting as we haven’t seen each other since March last year but our relationship is going strong. In fact, I felt that we only deepened it during this epidemics because these harsh times demanded us to be even more commited to each other and there for each other during hard times. When she finishes her studies in cca 2 years or so, (I myself obtained master’s degree about a week ago) we will hopefully be able to live together.

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    64. Sometimes troll behaviour can spill out into real life. I won’t mention any family names but a little under 14 years ago a little British girl went missing from a tourist resort in Portugal. It’s quite a famous case and one ‘troll’ made some comments – which were somewhat rancid – to or about the parents. Somewhere the troll had shown a photo of her dog and a TV reporter somehow traced the woman’s identity through her dog and ‘doorstepped’ the woman about her unpleasant tweets. Long story short the troll killed herself. Two wrongs don’t make a right though I don’t think the reporter meant for it to end up like that. I’m not in favour of doxing people even if they are people I don’t agree with.

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    65. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      That’s a great story! Thanks for telling it to me! And I’m really glad it’s working out in the end 🙂 I’ve met close friends through fandom as well! Harry Potter and LoTR were the big bonders for me. And I’ve met online friends in person, drawn together by fandom (Sailor Moon!) It’s always kind of a surreal experience to meet somebody in person that you’ve been talking with online for years, I’ve found. I didn’t have anything like you had though, just platonic 🙂 I’m also glad something good has come out of covid. Hopefully it ends sooner than later so you both can start your lives together! Also, congratulations on the master’s degree!!

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    66. Dame of Mercia,

      Wow. That’s terrible… wow.

      Yeah, I think doxxing people is always stepping over a line. It’s happened to me twice where my phone number has been found and to that friend I have who admins that large YouTuber site I mentioned. As an admin, she’s not everyone’s fave person, especially when she’s had to ban people. She’s been doxxed a few times in retaliation.

      But that news story you told is just horrible. I think that reporter really stepped beyond the line.

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    67. Adrianacandle,

      In my case, it’s sadly GoT where I really acknowledged the ugly side of fandoms, including purism and hate-watching. The first drama TV show I watched was LOST and that was back in 2011 (January till June) and I luckily watched it after it already finished. The same year, GoT aired (and a couple months prior to that, I read the first two novels) which I began to watch and immediately “fell in love” with (way more than I did by initially reading novels). I was (and still very much am) really big geek when it comes to GoT but with every year, my bubble began to crumble more and more…

      – THe first less-positive side I experienced was in S2 when changes started to happen in terms of the novels and people started getting critical. From stuff like Melisandre not having red eyes, to Dany not baring one breast in Qarth, to absence of Reeds and Ramsay and everything like that. But then, I thought it’s just nitpicking of the few and that there’s no way this show could be hated.

      – Then the real revelation came with me discovering Westeros.org and the reviews of Linda Antonsson and Elio Garcia during S3. A Wiki of Ice and Fire was my go-to page for books and I was sure that if there’s a site that loves GoT, it’s this one. Then I came upon their reviews and I realized they were incredibly critical! They didn’t love the TV show. If things were adapted from the books, they were like “Okay, that’s the right way to go” with no enthusiastic “praise”, and if there was something they didn’t like, they were very harsh with criticizm and I sensed the feeling of elitism. The peak came when they harshly criticized the Red Wedding itself and labeled it as bad adaptation because they wanted the wedding itself to be more horror-like. I was like “WTF??? How can you say that?” – prior to discovering their reviews, I was sure that people who watch GoT are the ones who really love it and those who don’t certainly wouldn’t watch it. It felt totally unbelievable to me that two people who clearly don’t enjoy it would watch the TV show. Of course, I had no idea back then who Elio and Linda are.

      – Next step, the Forum of Ice and Fire. I discovered it in S3 and that was a perfect place where I could observe an initial enthusiastic fansite dissolve first into very critical Elio-and-Linda-style site and eventually into full blown hatedom. By that time, I eventually realized who Elio and Linda are… GRRM’s friends. And I did some more research about them and the more I found, the more I ended up disliking them. Now the tone of their reviews made perfect sense to me. Especially when I came upon Linda’s personal blog and she turned out to be very nasty person and a self-proclaimed passionate hater of GoT. She outright said there’s no way for her to ever like GoT unless it’s a complete line-to-line adaptation with all inner monologue included but at same time stated she knows that’s impossible so she’ll simply continue to hate it. Up to this point, I foolishly thought fans are nothing but thankful for adaptations and that there’s no way anyone would disrespect it… or if they don’t like it, they’ll stop watching and distance from it. But here I now got acknowledged with so-called “fan entitlement” a.k.a when fans feel personally offended if things don’t go the way they wished. And I realized Benioff and Weiss and GoT crew are not looked up by all fans. In fact, they’re looked down by portion of the fandom. That was a concept unusual to me back then because I never followed fandoms before but I realized it…

      – But if I was able to ignore Westeros.org, I was splashed with cold water after S4 when I discovered a person named The Dragon Demands, chief admin of GoT Wikia. GoT Wikia, the site I used to edit myself in 2011! The site that I thought is the heart of fandom! What I discovered about him is what makes me angry and disgusted up to this day. It happened when I discovered a MASSIVE essay about omission of Tysha under the Children Wiki page and that essay was clearly written with extreme bias, openly criticising the TV show on a WIKI PAGE! I wrote in talk section what’s the point of this essay and I got incredibly condescending answer back from The Dragon Demands how I even dare to question him and that omission of Tysha ruins everything and that casual fans need to know in order to not love the show as much as they do… he even threatened me with bans and such for even questioning him. And I did some more research on TDD and I realized he actually intensely dislikes GoT, he’s incredibly condescending to everyone who objects him, he believes book readers are waaay above TV show watchers and he stated himself that he believes people shouldn’t love GoT as much as they do. Eventually GoT Wikia became one big critique about GoT because The Dragon Demands turned it into his personal blog and banned anyone who dared to object him. Literally, the site where fans should go in order to get info on GoT became one big hate-blog. Up to this day, I’m straight disgusted that someone like that is still chief admin on GoT Wikia, someone who passionately hates the show and thinks of himself as above everybody.

      – After all these revelations, I started feeling frustrated. I realized hate is slowly overtaking every place that I thought of as GoT safe haven. During S5, I also observed Westeros.org become full-hatedom. There was a post “List 5 favorite S5 moments” and the first reply was “The moment it ended”, second reply was “Nothing”. This was absurd to me! Watching 10 hours of something IN ORDER to hate it! You don’t do that! Even the fact that someone would go into the TV show loving it and at one point started hating it with passion. I always thought that GoT’s epic scale alone can’t make it less than good. So I abandoned Westeros org for good and suddenly I was alone and frustrated… there was NO SITE I could spread my appreciation for the show…

      – …until I came to WotW between S5 and S6. And here… everything I wished then. I absolutely LOVED it here during that time. For the first time after a while, I saw massive group appreciation for GoT, including S5. I finally felt not alone. The people who only kept harshly criticising the TV show were now in minority and I enjoyed seeing them facing extreme opposition in this site. The Dragon Demands was here and I was finally able to tell him about how I feel he utterly destroyed GoT Wikia. Eventually, The Dragon Demands disappeared from WotW and I was incredibly pleased. So did several other people who were constantly negative. Of course, some members remained but I loved that appreciation base was waaaay bigger than the criticising base. Following Memory Lane journey here and then watching S6 and writing my reviews on this site and communicating with fans, it was absolutely incredible for me and my GoT journey became truly special! My GoT fan flame almost got extinguished prior to that… because of all the toxicity I encountered in past years, I felt awful for liking the TV show and I couldn’t even watch it with passion anymore because Westeros.org and The Dragon Demands kept haunting my mind, as much as I loved GoT itself.

      – Sadly, I started to distance from WotW after S6 and up to this day, I still wonder what changed here. I again started feeling… uncomfortable and it more and more started to affect me that I was the guy with unpopular opinion among GoT fandom (because I never liked Dany and I loved Sansa). Maybe it was the fact that with S7 approaching, a mass fan hype was building up for Dany/Jon meeting, even going to the point to label them as “the story” and the rest of characters just side characters… of course, I could never get behind that hype train because I never rooted for Dany. Or the other thing as after S6, some dislike for Sansa started to (re?)emerge among fandom, speculating her becoming an antagonist in S7 and that she was a secret antagonist in S6 all along… while for me, it was S6 that firmly cemented her as my favorite character. Maybe that was the problem… or maybe overall reception was more critical here than I initially thought and I was just lucky to participate on this site at right time. While speculation for S6 attracted me TO this site, I found that speculation for S7 wanted me to get off this site because I couldn’t board the hype train for expected plot points.

      – Still I didn’t vanish. I came back during S7, hyped for GoT and S7 actually managed to get me at peace as what I dreaded turned out not to be correct and I loved the 7 episodes, especially as the show didn’t go full typical-fantasy route. But still, the spark I had during S6 on this site was gone again… and I don’t know the reason. It just wasn’t the same for me. It could be also that S7 aired in 2017 when I was absolutely thriving in LOST group and its positive vibe so WotW, being more “critical” during show run, didn’t hold the candle to me anymore. And then S8 happened and similar story as in S7 unfolded for me… I was here, but the spark was gone and I again found myself in “unpopular opinion” position because I absolutely enjoyed all S8 episodes but then I came here and I faced a whole bunch of criticism for them. I was really surprised to see “The Long Night” was disliked, because that episode was one-of-a-kind for me when it comes to my feelings when watched it, rivaled only by “The End” from LOST…. and I was shocked to see The Bells, an episode of such epic proportions, being so intensely hated by audience. And everything that followed with “The Iron Throne” and becoming a trend to bash GoT after its release, I almost wanted to scream out of frustration what GoT fandom has become.

      I haven’t rewatched GoT since it ended, with exception of some episodes with my girlfriend (as she was watching for first time). I really want to but I’m worried the audience’s response will always haunt me and take away from my enjoyment in big way. Sometimes I regret becoming part of GoT fandom as I think I would have been better off in my own GoT bubble where the only opinion is mine. And yet I can’t help but come back to this site and search for some traces of appreciation which I can’t find anywhere else.

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    68. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I think people are going to have their own opinions, no matter what they are — and so long as things don’t get personal and as long as they’re willing to engage respectfully, I think that’s fine. There are debates that I feel have been done to death over and over but different opinions, even severely different opinions, are something that I think are a fact of the world and a risk of fandom (mirroring real life in a way). Sometimes, it can definitely hurt but yeah, out of our control :/ I feel the same as you do with regard to becoming part of fandom as there are times it’s really, really not fun.

      There are some (like TDD) who I think go too far because I think there are personal assertions being made there. And sometimes, depending on which circle you’re in, the majority fandom opinion will divide from your own and that’s part of the risk of actively engaging in fandom. I think that’s a factor far out of our control and it is what it is. We can also choose to disengage if it’s becoming too painful and maybe, sometimes, that’s the best choice.

      Admittedly, I had trouble with Sansa between seasons 6-8, yes, but getting into the same old debates isn’t that fun anymore for me now and something I’ve come to cringe over. I think a Sansa debate was my first debate on this board, actually, in November 2016 😉 But I’m definitely looking forward to new, fresh material to discuss and parse: Nettles, Alicent, Rhaenyra, Daemon, maybe even Dunk & Egg if we’re lucky! Team Green vs. Team Black battles in good faith! TWOW god willing…

      With regard to the books, I don’t think they’re perfectly written and as with many book-based adaptation fandoms, there are book purists. Harry Potter could be pretty bad for that too. But I think these are sort of part and parcel with fandom. You can form amazing relationships, make good friends, enjoy things together! But there are some nasty sides too. But I think the important thing is to know when it’s becoming too much, when fandom becomes too painful (and it has for me in the past — Buffy, again, was my first experience with that). And if it does reach that point, it was recommended to me that I take a step back and refresh. We can’t control others’ opinions but we can control what we do.

      I hope you don’t mind me talking about this! You have feelings I relate to, not just with this fandom but with other fandoms as well.

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    69. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      The Dragon Demands seems to be a glass half empty person rather than a glass half full one. I commented on one of his YouTube videos (not rudely, well I didn’t think I was rude) saying that it must have been difficult for B&W to finish the ASOIAF adaptation when they had thought they would have TWoW and ADoS in print by season 6/7 when they first took on the task of adapting ASOIAF for the small screen. I didn’t comment as DoM but I ended up shadow-banned. The dialetical method of discussion seems to have fallen out of favour.

      I’m sure you know the idiom about a glass half empty or half full but here’s a link in case anyone is unsure. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/glass-half-empty

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    70. Here we go again.

      The same commenters who constantly bitch and moan about mean fandoms are the same ones who keep bringing it up unprovoked all the time as if it’s their favorite topic. If you hate it so much then stop bringing it up as a conversation topic every chance you get.

      It’s best to simply ignore random mean internet strangers, not let them get into your head so easily, and just move on. Who cares what they think anyway? Why is this being brought up again?

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    71. Adrianacandle,

      ”…And there are those going kind of stir-crazy, stuck at home, which isn’t the nicest place for one’s mind sometimes. I know I’ve gotten a bit more depressed having not seen people for weeks and weeks, going to gatherings, meeting at a cafe, parties, etc. Some odd mind stuff can happen then…”

      🖐

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    72. Mr Derp,

      I wasn’t aware my comments were considered b*tching and moaning, Mr D. Some of my thoughts about negativity on the internet aren’t confined to GoT fandoms. I don’t want to bring conspiracy lunacy on to this board. Nonetheless there HAS been craziness online and in the real world where people talk about the letter that comes after P Anonsense and it’s spread to Europe, certainly to the UK now. I can only speak for myself but although I may give the ‘Wheel of Time’ show a chance when it airs I probably won’t get involved in any fandom.

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    73. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      ”Well, I’m pleased you read through entire essay of mine. It’s quite a demanding read… 😅

      • I read through your entire essay too.
      Thank you for your insights. I wish people would make the effort to critique respectfully (and avoid cheap personal attacks and name-calling), while also remembering to praise and commend with the same fervor they use to condemn.
      There were aspects of GoT I wasn’t thrilled with, and yet they were overshadowed by what I loved about it. Similarly, while there were some characters I felt were a waste of screen time [Hello, Euron!], Sandor and Arya made inedible impressions on me.
      It’s all about balance, and as you observed, not getting sucked into a vortex of negativity.

      —-
      ”I forgot to mention above that obviously, the most beautiful thing that came out of that LOST community is that I met my girlfriend…”

      That was such a sweet story! I’m happy for you.
      What you described reminded me of a quote from [newspaper advice columnist] Ann Landers I read a long time ago. It went something like this: “True love is friendship caught fire.”

        Quote  Reply

    74. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      ”During S5, I also observed Westeros.org become full-hatedom. There was a post “List 5 favorite S5 moments” and the first reply was “The moment it ended”, second reply was “Nothing”. This was absurd to me!”

      WTF? There were more than 5 such moments in “Hardhome” alone! (Not to mention epic scenes on other episodes, e.g.? Jon unchaining Tormund; Stannis offering to legitimize Jon; etc.) Sure, not every single storyline in S5 fired on all cylinders, but it’s difficult to fathom how anyone could say “nothing” about S5 was enjoyable.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Ten Bears:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      ”During S5, I also observed Westeros.org become full-hatedom. There was a post “List 5 favorite S5 moments” and the first reply was “The moment it ended”, second reply was “Nothing”. This was absurd to me!”

      WTF? There were more than 5 such moments in “Hardhome” alone! (Not to mention epic scenes on other episodes, e.g.? Jon unchaining Tormund; Stannis offering to legitimize Jon; etc.) Sure, not every single storyline in S5 fired on all cylinders, but it’s difficult to fathom how anyone could say “nothing” about S5 was enjoyable.

      There were but as I recall, the controversy was over a) Dorne and b) how simplified things were in comparison to the books. I know AFFC and ADWD have received their fair share of criticism in this thread but things were pretty distilled from the books, some complexities were removed, as well as plots some were looking forward to (I remember the meltdown parts of the book fandom had over no LSH and were still having at this time. Also Show!Dorne vs. Book!Dorne, Sansa’s story taking over Jeyne Poole’s story, etc).

      So I think that overshadowed things for some viewers, especially book purists.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Ten Bears,

      Adrianacandle,

      Yeah pretty much like that. And let’s not forget Stannis – there was a massive outrage in terms of his story end and burning Shireen. When I put myself into the “hardcore book readers’ ” perspective that Westeros org mostly was, I think what got to them is that prior to S5, the changes were mostly done to properly adapt the plot for TV and omission of some side characters. So Westeros.org was still relatively decent overall and people didn’t really intensely rant about differences with exception of Linda. But with S5, it started to become obvious entire arcs will get omitted or changed. We now had Sansa moving to Winterfell instead of stagnating in the Eyrie, we had Jaime going to Dorne, it was obvious from S4 onwards we won’t have Brienne aimlessly wondering in Riverlands and it was quite firm at this point Lady Stoneheart won’t be part of the story, neither will Young Griff. And Stannis died! People expected him to emerge as a hero of Battle of Winterfell and to defeat the Boltons and when he burned Shireen, they refused to believe Stannis would ever do that. Even when Benioff and Weiss confirmed this plot comes from GRRM, people refused to believe it. “He didn’t say Stannis is going to do it! He probably only said Shireen will get burned.” – Well, now we have a direct quote from GRRM about Stannis being the one to do it “I told them about Hodor, about Stannis burning his daughter…”

      Now for people who were more of “purists”, there was a lot to stomach… and let’s not forget that by the time of S5, it was now all but obvious the TV show will surpass the books. I think that was a BIG deal for some people. It was during S5 when Benioff and Weiss were really started being called “Dumb and Dumber” and accused they’re writing fanfiction. You had blogs like The Cultural Vacuum that pretty much wrote hate-reviews on S5 (“S5 is loosely based on three page summary of ADWD/AFFC…”) and several Westeros.org members loved reading them. The two members I mentioned above were two most extreme members when it comes to dislike… not everyone was like that. But still, it was very hard to comment there in appreciative manner without being immediately talked down. So yeah, S5 was kind of… rough for fandom.

      When it comes to me personally, S5 is actually a season I grew more fond of with rewatches, especially Stannis’s final stand. Final 3-4 episodes are all of amazing quality for me.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Adrianacandle,

      Ah yes. The Sansa-Jeyne Poole shoehorning imbroglio. I chalked that up to a streamlining idea by the showrunners that might have looked good to them on paper but fizzled out in its execution.

      I’m not about to reignite the debates over

      the lack of logic in LF’s “marriage plan” and Sansa’s assent to it; the regression of Sansa’s character development back to punching bag status after what looked like her ascendency in S4e8; the showrunners’ reasoning that they didn’t want Sophie/Sansa to be sidelined for an entire season; or the repercussions to the character’s trajectory by fiddling around with her geographic and chronological coordinates, e.g., “prematurely” returning show! Sansa to the North instead of keeping her in the Vale like book! Sansa. Nor do I want to congratulate myself again for GRRM’s
      confirmation of my speculation that there was no way LF would let someone else, let alone an unknown bastard, take the virtue of Cat 2.0.

      For better or worse, my experience as a pre-books, show-only fan meant that I judged the show’s storylines on their own merits, without (direct) reference to the books! portrayals –

      though I am aware, from discussions here, of the show’s significant divergences from the books, especially those in S5 that you mentioned.

      At the risk of being redundant and dredging up a baseball metaphor, I try to cherish the show’s homeruns rather than dwell too much on the swings-and-misses.

      Last commentary:

      I sometimes wonder whether the toxic grievance infestation of fan sites my liege lord [Lord Parramandas] described is in part the result of blowback against commenters who like to discuss aspects of a show, e.g., character portrayals, they enjoyed. For example, I was kind of surprised that some of my appreciative Arya/Maisie Williams commentaries were met with insults. I guess it’s safer to Dorne-bash.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      ”When it comes to me personally, S5 is actually a season I grew more fond of with rewatches, especially Stannis’s final stand. Final 3-4 episodes are all of amazing quality for me.”
      ……………..

      Ozzy Man’s rapid-fire review of S5e8 [*link below] encapsulates many of the reasons why purists’ whinging is often misguided.

      It’s my understanding that the Jon + Free Folk vs. WWs encounter in “Hardhome” was a show-only creation, extrapolated from a brief reference in the books to a cryptic, second-hand report of “dead things in the water,” or something like that.

      Yet (in my view), that episode was a f*cking tour de force – and was #2 out of 73 in my final rankings. (It would’ve been #1 if I weren’t so partial to “high thread count” scenes, which put S4e7 on top.)

      * Ozzy Man Review of S8e5, “Hardhome”
      [7:49 long]

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRKFD0rbZBQ

      I think I enjoy rewatching this review almost as much as the episode itself.
      P.S. I’ve enjoyed reading your episode reviews as well. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    79. Ten Bears,

      I agree with you about the LF/Sansa situation and the rationale for the story change.

      In regard to this:

      I sometimes wonder whether the toxic grievance infestation of fan sites my liege lord [Lord Parramandas] described is in part the result of blowback against commenters who like to discuss aspects of a show, e.g., character portrayals, they enjoyed. For example, I was kind of surprised that some of my appreciative Arya/Maisie Williams commentaries were met with insults. I guess it’s safer to Dorne-bash.

      From what I’ve observed (and felt in a few instances), I think there was upset over the divergences from the material at this time and that these details were being lost to the show, that show-watchers wouldn’t be aware of these details, complexities, nuances. I think it’s at season 5 where it really started to feel different from the books for some. I wonder if part of the upset was because book purists didn’t feel their favourite storylines or characters were being accurately represented.

      Arya’s quest for vengeance wasn’t really treated as a coping mechanism or a tragic devolution but almost celebrated in a way, for instance. You already touched upon the LF/Sansa storyline divergence and in addition to that, the show’s version also did away with the secret machinations of the North to rescue Ned’s girl (Arya) and retrieve Rickon from Skagos. Dorne has a very full storyline in the books which quite a few were passionate about, that seems very likely to have lasting ramifications, but it was so reduced on the show to something that was barely recognizable and sort of jettisoned.

      Those are just a few examples and I see validity in these criticisms. Still, I also understand D&D only had 10 hours of screentime to do so much in and the books kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger… D&D had limitations that books did not and some things did not transfer well between mediums. For one, we miss out on those internal character monologues where we get some of the best stuff, I think. There’s no real way to do that in a show without V/O which D&D felt would come off as cheesy (and I agree with them).

      But there were some book purists who took this as like, a personal offense and declaration of war. I’ve seen this happen in multiple fandoms, like Harry Potter as I referenced, and it’s never fun to come across but… I maintain we have a choice to step away from that side of things, especially when it brings no joy where fandom should be a form of escape from the difficulties of our real lives.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      And I think this is where, if fandom is causing pain (and outweighing the pleasure) more often than not, one has the choice to step back — and that’d be a good choice to take if it’s affecting your enjoyment of the material or outweighing the benefits derived from participating in fandom. People will say what they will, feel how they will, express that as they will, the fandom climate will be as it is — and it’s all out of our control. On the up side of that, this all is on the other side of the computer, only accessible through a browser and other digital feeds. Time away from these environments may help and it may allow you to immerse yourself in this media again.

      I’ve edited Wikipedia on and off throughout the years (mostly gnome edits) and sometimes, there are disputes. When one reaches a stalemate with another editor wherein they refuse to engage and you’re stuck, it feels so frustrating and almost like the most urgent thing in the world when you really care about the topic. They have this page for advice on what to do but something that I’ve found the most helpful (and to be true in many cases) was stepping away from the situation and the power of time. To quote from the page, “Remember that at Wikipedia, as generally in life, time wounds all heels.” Maybe this is the case for fandom too.

      I second Ten Bears’s recommendation 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    81. Adrianacandle,

      ”Arya’s quest for vengeance wasn’t really treated as a coping mechanism or a tragic devolution

      but almost celebrated in a way, for instance.”

      So… the show

      turned her into Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess

      without the nuances in the books, I guess. All I can go by is

      the “Mercy” sample chapter, by the end of which she was in full Batman mode.

      . Which I liked…

        Quote  Reply

    82. Ten Bears,

      I think talvikorppi’s assessment of Arya in the books accurate but I think you’ll need to read the books yourself to see how this assessment holds up for you. I think Arya’s Mercy chapter happens in the context of everything that’s gone on, what’s happened to her, and what she’s done in the books. I’d say it’s hard to read these chapters/excerpts/etc. as stand-alones when trying to get a full assessment of who she is in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    83. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I was shocked when I did some research about Linda and her behavior. D&D tried to even reach out to them they made a post on their site. They invited them to set for season 1 and all Linda did was say some really horrible things about them.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Adrianacandle,

      ”I am sick to death of the season 8 fights, frankly, and am looking forward to discussing different things…”

      I am too. And there are enough “Season 8 sucked” and “D&D are hacks” videos on YouTube for anyone who’s still interested in playing around in that echo chamber. Like many other fans, I had some nitpicks with the final two seasons.

      I prefer to focus on the highlights, e.g., rewatchable character moments like…

      S8e2 Sandor to Arya: “I fought for you, didn’t I?”

      [at 1:12]
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBiz2O83b2c

      Still gets to me every time… 😥

        Quote  Reply

    85. Adrianacandle,

      ”But I’m definitely looking forward to new, fresh material to discuss and parse: Nettles, Alicent, Rhaenyra, Daemon, maybe even Dunk & Egg if we’re lucky! Team Green vs. Team Black battles in good faith!…”

      That reminds me…
      Although I’ve pledged myself to Team Green already 🧝🏻‍♂️💚, probably prematurely,

      I did have a Musical Interlude queued up for our Dragon Princess Rhaenyra. I’ve just been waiting for the appropriate thread.

      Hopefully, production on HotD will start soon enough and the hype machine (and set photos – maybe from Helen Sloane?) will give us some first looks at the rivals.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Ten Bears,

      That reminds me…
      Although I’ve pledged myself to Team Green already 🧝🏻‍♂️💚, probably prematurely,

      Even if no side comes out as the bastion or morality (or even close to it), I think you can still root for your team and defend it to the end 🙂 There are so many things to root for, be compelled by, invest in, and even defend!

      Actually, I think that no side is particularly moral will make the battles interesting 😉

      I think I’m going Team Black but that’s subject to change!

      I did have a Musical Interlude queued up for our Dragon Princess Rhaenyra. I’ve just been waiting for the appropriate thread.

      Ooooh! I look forward to it!!

      Hopefully, production on HotD will start soon enough and the hype machine (and set photos – maybe from Helen Sloane?) will give us some first looks at the rivals.

      Me too! The more I see of Olivia Cooke, for example, the more I think she’s perfect for the role 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    87. Fireblood87:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      I was shocked when I did some research about Linda and her behavior. D&D tried to even reach out to them they made a post on their site. They invited them to set for season 1 and all Linda did was say some really horrible things about them.

      And at the same time she took money to translate the show for Swedish TV. Hypocritical as f*ck, that lady. Nothing but a grifter.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Adrianacandle,

      ”…The more I see of Olivia Cooke, for example, the more I think she’s perfect for the role 🙂”

      • This clip of Steven Spielberg with Olivia Cooke (from HBO Screening Room introduction to “Ready Player One” convinced me that she’s got the chameleon-like quality to play an ambitious young woman and a regal queen:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZhw7K3uHFo
      (at 1:30: Olivia Cooke speaks about her role)

      • However, I am very intrigued about Emma D’Arcy as Rhaenyra T.
      As we’ve discussed. although she apparently has extensive theatrical experience (on stage), it’s almost impossible to find any TV or movie clips of her acting. and she doesn’t have an electronic footprint (e.g., postings on social media, or recorded interviews). As I’ve previously suggested, she must have knocked the socks off the producers and casting director to land such a high profile role on HotD: the presumptive successor to HBO’s flagship series, and not merely some hit-or-miss indie flick.

      • I’m psyched to see the first publicity photos of these two young actors in full costume and makeup.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Ten Bears,

      I got a “Video unavailable: The uploader has not made this video available in your country” error 😭Uploader is anti-Canada! ;0; (Okay, not really but 😉 )

      Anyway, I’m totally on board with Olivia Cooke! Really excited to see her as Alicent!

      However, I am very intrigued about Emma D’Arcy as Rhaenyra T.
      As we’ve discussed. although she apparently has extensive theatrical experience (on stage), it’s almost impossible to find any TV or movie clips of her acting. and she doesn’t have an electronic footprint (e.g., postings on social media, or recorded interviews). As I’ve previously suggested, she must have knocked the socks off the producers and casting director to land such a high profile role on HotD: the presumptive successor to HBO’s flagship series, and not merely some hit-or-miss indie flick.

      She obviously had something significant! I kind of like that it’s almost impossible to find any of her previous work 🙂 Makes her kind of like a mystery!

      • I’m psyched to see the first publicity photos of these two young actors in full costume and makeup.

      Me too!! And I’m pretty excited about seeing this historical account come to life 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    90. Adrianacandle,

      ”Anyway, I’m totally on board with Olivia Cooke! Really excited to see her as Alicent!”
      ***
      “She [Emma D’Arcy] obviously had something significant! I kind of like that it’s almost impossible to find any of her previous work 🙂 Makes her kind of like a mystery!”

      Exactly! Emma D’Arcy, as a relative unknown, comes into this with an aura of mystery. That she’s private and inaccessible adds to the allure.

      I’ve been asking myself:

      (1) Hundreds of young actresses* must have been vying for the roles of Alicent and Rhaenyra, and surely HotD, with the GoT/HBO pedigree, had the proverbial pick of the litter in casting. So what was it about these two particular young women that stood out?
      *

      I acknowledge that the word “actress” is being phased out of the lexicon in favor of “actor” as a gender neutral noun (like “doctor”). I intend no disrespect by referring to Ms. Cooke and Ms. D’Arcy as “actresses.” In context, I thought “two young actors” could be confusing, e.g., misconstrued to mean a pair of guys.

      (2) Likewise, with big bucks and its reputation
      on the line (along with the imperative of establishing a successor to its flagship series GoT), one might naturally assume that the “safe” bet for HotD would be to cast a familiar face as Rhaenyra – someone with built-in box office draw.

      (Unlike the child actors cast for GoT who were 12 or 13 when filming commenced – and were therefore unknowns, I assume that the two young women to star in HotD would be in their late teens or early twenties, with the flexibility to age up or age down the characters on-screen depending on the time frame(s) of the story and the longevity of the show.)

      So
      regardless of talent, why would HBO take what could be deemed a huge risk in casting the dragonriding Targ Princess?

      One might expect HotD to take the safe route and cast someone recognizable like Anya Taylor-Joy, who co-starred with Olivia Cooke in “Thoroughbreds” and with Maisie Williams in “New Mutants.” #ARLTA.

      (3) How soon will the HBO Store come out with overpriced Team Green and Team Black merchandise, like tee shirts and caps?

      (4) [to be cont. in a few minutes…]

        Quote  Reply

    91. (Continued from 9:12 am)

      (4) As I look at my official Royal Mail (U.K.) Game of Thrones stamps with real life images of the faces of Emilia Clarke, Maisie Williams, Sophie Turner, et al. immortalized for posterity…

      https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71e9hXvDhcL._AC_SL1024_.jpg

      …. and think about Tamzin Merchant’s quoted comment about the odd experience of riding a bus with a larger than life image of Emilia Clarke’s face plastered on its side…

      …I’m curious whether Ms. D’Arcy is prepared for the loss of privacy and anonymity if HotD follows in GoT’s footsteps and becomes a worldwide hit.
      (I’m not excluding Olivia Cooke. It’s just that she seems to have more experience being in the public eye, having done publicity tours for movies, media interviews, movie trailers and other PR events.)

      Now that would be bitt**sweet: An actress who went to great pains to preserve her privacy finding herself with none.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Ten Bears,

      I acknowledge that the word “actress” is being phased out of the lexicon in favor of “actor” as a gender neutral noun (like “doctor”). I intend no disrespect by referring to Ms. Cooke and Ms. D’Arcy as “actresses.” In context, I thought “two young actors” could be confusing, e.g., misconstrued to mean a pair of guys.

      I wasn’t really confused, personally. I tend to use actor/actress interchangeably.

      (2) Likewise, with big bucks and its reputation
      on the line (along with the imperative of establishing a successor to its flagship series GoT), one might naturally assume that the “safe” bet for HotD would be to cast a familiar face as Rhaenyra – someone with built-in box office draw.

      Well, I don’t think it’s terribly unusual for high profile productions to cast relatively unknown actors for major roles. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings for instance. Game of Thrones also cast new faces in major roles that were veering on the adult side (Robb, Jon, Dany) whose characters were in their late teens at the time.

      So
      regardless of talent, why would HBO take what could be deemed a huge risk in casting the dragonriding Targ Princess?

      I don’t think it is a huge risk. It’s done sometimes and if it works, if this production is launches their career, that actor becomes linked to that production — no previous productions (or anything associated with the actor) to compete with.

      (3) How soon will the HBO Store come out with overpriced Team Green and Team Black merchandise, like tee shirts and caps?

      I wish I knew! 😉 I’d say this might happen after the show proves itself?

      I’m curious whether Ms. D’Arcy is prepared for the loss of privacy and anonymity if HotD follows in GoT’s footsteps and becomes a worldwide hit.
      (I’m not excluding Olivia Cooke. It’s just that she seems to have more experience being in the public eye, having done publicity tours for movies, media interviews, movie trailers and other PR events.)

      Now that would be bitt**sweet: An actress who went to great pains to preserve her privacy finding herself with none.

      Based on my limited knowledge, I think this is a consideration actors take into account when trying out for a major show such as this. Especially on HBO!

        Quote  Reply

    93. Adrianacandle,

      If I were a young actor, I don’t know how I wouldn’t get a swelled head seeing myself on a postage stamp.

      [image: Royal Mail (UK) Dany, Jon, Arya, & Tyrion stamps]
      https://images.app.goo.gl/MQCdEye3PW2xD3jq6
      ….
      [Image: USPS Hermione, Harry & Ron – “Harry Potter” stamps]
      https://about.usps.com/news/stamp-releases/harry-potter/harry-ron-herm.jpg

      ⛔️ Semi Off Topic Whinge Alert:
      I am still ticked off that the U.S. Postal Service did not issue Game of Thrones stamps.
      I stocked up on Star Wars stamps (with lifelike images of the human cast members and faithful depictions of Yoda) when they were issued many years ago, and got a bunch of Harry Potter stamp booklets more recently.
      The USPS often jointly issues stamps with other countries, e.g., U.S. + Sweden Greta Garbo stamps, and U.S. + Canada history of hockey stamps.
      Whether for stamp collectors or fans who’d want to send letters* with their favorite characters’ stamps, the USPS could’ve made a fortune on GoT stamp sets.
      * Kit H used Royal Mail Jon Snow stamps on his wedding invitations!

        Quote  Reply

    94. gosh I just finished my exams! Sorry for the absence! Hope everyone is doing great

      And, honestly George, Just stop it, you dont have to give excuses or justify yourself by any means, if we get the books, we get them, and if we dont, well, its not the first time a book series has been finished by a different author.

      I think people are being too harsh on him tbh, Im quite certain no one is more frustrated about this than he is, you have to remember that he has created this marvelous world for us, a complex, intricate and dynamic world of ice and fire, filled (and plagued) with great characters, Im just thankful for that.

        Quote  Reply

    95. MaxHightowerYronwood,

      ”And, honestly George, Just stop it, you don’t have to give excuses or justify yourself by any means…”

      💯 agree. It’s when he issues these progress reports that the Whinging Brigades come out of the woodwork to excoriate him. If he just laid low, there are enough real world problems to preoccupy the fandom so they wouldn’t be wondering about the status of TWOW.

      ”Silence is golden.”
      (And “Words are wind,” right?)

        Quote  Reply

    96. Ten Bears:
      MaxHightowerYronwood,

      ”And, honestly George, Just stop it, you don’t have to give excuses or justify yourself by any means…”

      agree. It’s when he issues these progress reports that the Whinging Brigades come out of the woodwork to excoriate him. If he just laid low, there are enough real world problems to preoccupy the fandom so they wouldn’t be wondering about the status of TWOW.

      ”Silence is golden.”
      (And “Words are wind,” right?)

      Fully agree. He simply should stop giving those updates. As time goes by, less and less people give a shit about them anyway as interest in the franchise wanes. He really should enjoy his retirement.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Dame of Mercia:
      Mr Derp,

      I wasn’t aware my comments were considered b*tching and moaning, Mr D.Some of my thoughts about negativity on the internet aren’t confined to GoT fandoms.I don’t want to bring conspiracy lunacy on to this board. Nonetheless there HAS been craziness online and in the real world where people talk about the letter that comes after P Anonsense and it’s spread to Europe, certainly to the UK now.I can only speak for myself but although I may give the ‘Wheel of Time’ show a chance when it airs I probably won’t get involved in any fandom.

      My comment wasn’t really even aimed at you. My comment was aimed at the commenters who come here to constantly complain about internet negativity even when nothing negative is happening. They know who they are. It’s…weird. If nothing is going bad, then why change the tune of the conversation to how negative people on the internet are? It’s seems to me that certain people kind of get off on it. Otherwise it wouldn’t be brought up unprovoked as often as it is on this site by the same commenters over and over.

      Take Erik for example. His M.O. is to make the same talking points over and over when he comes here. He always comes in here acting like he’s Mr. Positivity when in fact he almost ALWAYS brings up internet trolling unprovoked. He’s also called everyone on this site a lesser GoT fan than he, because he’s claims to be some overflowing source of positivity even though he’s frequently the only one here who acts negative on certain threads. I don’t know how anyone else doesn’t see it for what it is. Here’s one of his comments:

      “apart from Dee, everyone here lacks the vibe and attitude a fan should possess in my eyes. You completely lack the passion, the enthusiasm and all I see these days is constant complaining, speaking negatively of the characters and comparison to the books now that the show is way over the books.”

      That’s about as negative and divisive of a statement as possible, yet he’s Mr. Positivity!

      He also constantly brings up the topic of internet negativity to prop himself up to look better despite the fact that he spreads negativity around with the best of them. It’s gross. I don’t know how you all don’t see it. Whenever he’s called out on it, he acts like a martyr and then goes on to post some overly dramatic post about how he’s never coming back here because of the negativity….and then he proceeds to…come back here posting the same exact stuff.

      IMO, it’s time to stop discussing stupid things that dopes like Linda said YEARS AGO when it’s completely unprovoked. Yea, she sucks. We get it. Enough already. Let’s move on. Internet trolls don’t deserve that much attention.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Mr Derp,

      If I accused you falsely then I retract the accusation.

      For myself, I don’t mind Erik’s comments on the whole. I think people have maybe come across as negative on the thread because there have been many “Not yet” pieces of news from Mr Martin over the years.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Dame of Mercia: I had to google Snowpiercer as it’s name was unfamiliar to me. I recognised Jamie Bell’s name and Tilda Swinton. I may have linked this before but here’s a young Tilda Swinton from a Scots show circa 1990 called ‘Your Cheatin’ Heart’. I don’t think it was a show that was known outside the UK – it was set in a Scots version of the country and western scene – a comedy-drama with a crime element. I think Tilda has a decent singing voice in this. [link]

      I’m sorry, Dame, I missed this!

      The “Snowpiercer” I’m referring to is the 2020 Netflix series starring Jennifer Connelly 🙂 Season 2 features Sean Bean! There’s a Snowpiercer movie but that’s not the same thing.

        Quote  Reply

    100. MaxHightowerYronwood:
      gosh I just finished my exams! Sorry for the absence! Hope everyone is doing great

      And, honestly George, Just stop it, you dont have to give excuses or justify yourself by any means, if we get the books, we get them, and if we dont, well, its not the first time a book series has been finished by a different author.

      I think people are being too harsh on him tbh, Im quite certain no one is more frustrated about this than he is, you have to remember that he has created this marvelous world for us, a complex, intricate and dynamic world of ice and fire, filled (and plagued) with great characters, Im just thankful for that.

      I pretty much agree. GRRM’s frustration is palpable. He thought, back in 2011 (!) that he’d have the whole thing sewn up in a couple of years, then move on to pastures new (or should that be gardens new? 🙂 )

      Here we are. Ten years later.

      Personally, I think we might get TWOW but I’m very doubtful about the last book (or two! or three!) of the series. In his own blog he says he’s written hundreds of pages of TWOW, still hundreds to go. The best year he’s had. (So what the hell was he doing in 2011 – 2019??) So, if 2021 is as good as 2020 (and that’s a big if) for writing TWOW, the book might come out in… say 2023?

      It seems to me that GRRM got tangled up in his ever-expanding garden. Lost control and focus. Got tempted by the world-building, wanting to tell backstories for ever more characters, expand on the “history” of his world.

      I enjoy the supplementary books and novellas. I’d enjoy them more after finishing the main ASOIAF series, though.

      There was an interview years ago where GRRM said he enjoys the gardening writing process; once he knows the ending (implying he didn’t when he started), he loses interest. It’s all hard graft from then on, to bring it to a conclusion.

      This is what seems to be happening with ASOIAF. GRRM has probably lost interest but feels obligated to finish it.

      I can sort of understand GRRM’s process. I write as a hobby, just for my own pleasure, I like the process. So I can keep all my stories open, rework them, keep adding, go off a tangent to tell the story of an interesting side character, their back- and forward story, which spawns even more tangents. But I’m not wishing to publish any of my stories so I can dawdle in my imaginary worlds forever. However, GRRM is an actual published author, under contract to his publishers. It’s not a hobby, it’s his bloody job!

      That said, GRRM doesn’t “owe” his fans anything. (He might owe his publishers a couple of books, depending on how his contract is written.) I really loathe the fan entitlement element. Especially the part that thinks GRRM “owes” them the ending they want. (Often different from the show ending.)

      I don’t think GRRM is quite the genius some of his most ardent fans (acolytes?) think, but he’s a good writer, and it takes time to plot carefully and plant clues in unexpected places. He used to be able to do it much faster, though. Is he believing his own hype and overdoing it?

      Maybe we’ll never know.

      Anyway, all the best and good health to George!

        Quote  Reply

    101. Adrianacandle,

      Adriana, my comment about ‘Snowpiercer’ disappeared into moderating oblivion for a while so that’s probably why you hadn’t seen it. I’ve had comments on other platforms disappear recently – quite often if I’ve tried to include a link. I think it happens automatically with links sometimes, especially if the powers that be think there might be something to do with letter that comes after P in the alphabet stuff (not that such matter appertains to GoT).

        Quote  Reply

    102. Adrianacandle,

      • [About readers’ dissatisfaction with show! Dorne]:
      ”…as I recall, the controversy was over a) Dorne and b) how simplified things were in comparison to the books…..
      …(I remember the meltdown parts of the book fandom had over no LSH and were still having at this time. Also Show!Dorne vs. Book!Dorne, Sansa’s story taking over Jeyne Poole’s story, etc)…”

      +
      • My comment about GoT Royal Mail character stamps (“If I were a young actor, I don’t know how I wouldn’t get a swelled head seeing myself on a postage stamp”), and your reply:
      ”It’s beyond cool — I can’t even contemplate what it’s like to be memorialized in that way! 😀” ….

      ———————
      Well. as for the perceived misfire of show! Dorne and the showrunners’ decision to pull the plug on that detour, including prematurely killing off Doran Martell in the first episode of S6(?) – which infuriated actor Alexander Siddig. who expected to have a prominent multi-episode storyline…

      [to be continued in a few minutes]

        Quote  Reply

    103. Ten Bears,

      (cont. from 2:52 pm)

      Despite Doran Martell’s abrupt exit from GoT, it looks like the Royal Mail gods have immortalized Alexander Siddig after all:

      Here’s a stamp issued in 2020 of Alexander Siddig as Star Trek Deep Space 9’s Dr. Julian Bashir:
      https://www.collectgbstamps.co.uk/images/gb/2020/2020_11669_l.jpg

      … as part of the UK Royal Mail Star Trek stamps series;
      https://images.app.goo.gl/fKaXGS4AwaZgHVYv7

        Quote  Reply

    104. At this point there’s no convincible way the book lives up to the hype, over a decade of fan theorizing has built up some high standards and the fandom has become tainted with extreme hate and self-entitlement.

      Anything he releases now that isn’t fast-paced and concluding vast amounts of storylines in a satisfying manner is going to cause shit storms. That’s not to mention the amount of rape in his books which will go down like a shit sandwich now (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.)

      This fandom is beyond saving and GRRM’s books are almost certainly going to stir the pot and reopen old wounds. The best chance we have at restoring some normalcy is the spin off shows being good.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Also, late to the party – sorry – but I’d like to add to the conversation between
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      Adrianacandle,

      Dame of Mercia,

      Ten Bears,

      Mr Derp,

      I read these conversations yesterday and nodded and nodded and shook my head.

      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas, especially moved me because his experiences describe the descending into hell of most online forums sooner or later. It doesn’t even have to be a “fandom”. (I’m glad he got someting sweet from his bitter experiences.)

      I’ve been lurking, very seldom sharing or participating on an online forum for knitters. Now, you’d think knitters are nice people, knitting baby booties and baby blankets and socks and scarves and jumpers. What could be more benign than balls of wool?

      Ha ha! Don’t forget the knitting needles! (Arya and Ten Bears, take note!) Sharp objects capable of inflicting fatal wounds.

      This international online knitting community descended into a “purity spiral”, Gavin Haynes wrote about it here:

      https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/

      I was there. I shared pictures and a running commentary on how I was knitting a thin merino wool base layer (top and bottom) for myself to use when cross-country skiing. Some people asked for instructions, I replied I had none, I just knit a swatch to determine the gauge (stitches per 10cm) and measure myself and work from there. As an example I gave my measurements, the yarn/needle used, the gauge, an example of the maths.

      Next I knew, I was “challenged” by… shall we say kindly, larger women (all of them in the US). For being a sizeist nazi for not providing instructions to make the base layer in their size. I tried to tell them that I’m not a knitwear designer, do your own maths like I did, I’m just sharing my own project, maybe giving tips to others. I’m size 44 (size 16 UK) myself, so hardly small.

      Whohboy! The right-on site managers (US) intervened on my “sizeist prejudice” and I got a pile-on. I was to be shunned as a hateful person.

      Wait, what? Just for explaining to some entitled person, larger than me, that I won’t (indeed can’t) design some knitwear for them for free. And I’m the bad person? Hateful?

      It was a bizzarre experience. But it revealed a lot about online conflict, or “hate” as it’s now called. Purity spirals and all.

      This is what is happening all the time in online communities. People don’t meet face-to-face, it’s all too easy to spew hateful speech behind an anonymous “nic”. Work up to a frenzy. Things get polarized, and it gets spilled into the real world. Not the mad knitters but, say, Trump supporters on 7.1.2021.

      Now, everybody here knows Ten Bears, and I disagree about Arya. I see her as tragic, vengeange is not the way, he sees her as badass, revenge is good. We both like the character. He took my description, meant to be a bit disparaging, pointing out the cliché, “Arya, super ninja assassin warrior princess” – ASNAWP for short – and made it his own.

      Do I “hate” Ten Bears ? Even if his interminable Arya fanboying has actually put me off visiting this site?

      Of course not! We disagree on some things but he’s a great contributor to the site. Yeah, I might’ve gently ribbed him on some occassions, he did it back. We acknowledge that we disagree on some things but we can appreciate each other’s contributions. (I hope!)

        Quote  Reply

    106. Mr Derp,

      You’re accusing me of being “unable to move on” and yet here you are reminding me all over again when I’m not even talking to you?! Who’s unable to move on then?? Newsflash, I was talking with Adriana, not you. And from what I saw, she was interested in reading what I wrote so I kept interacting. I didn’t even say a word about you or anybody else who is still present here in these huge comments. If you can’t stand me, then scroll over. Just don’t act holier-than-thou on me now considering I didn’t say a word to you here and yet here you are expressing your annoyment about me.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Joseph Mobile:

      …I honestly do not want to hear another word out of him about his “progress” on Winds until this book has a release date.

      Musical Interlude
      Dedicated to GRRM

      🎶

      ”Don’t speak,
      I know just what you’re saying
      So please stop explaining
      Don’t tell me ’cause it hurts
      Don’t speak, I know what you’re thinking
      I don’t need your reasons
      Don’t tell me ’cause it hurts.”

      🎶
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR3Vdo5etCQ

      “Don’t Speak” (1995) – No Doubt

        Quote  Reply

    108. BeardedOnion,

      I agree that eventual release of The Winds of Winter would create even bigger hysteria that the final season of Game of Thrones. Because with S8 some people at least had hope that George is going to “save” them from D&D’s ending. But with the book, there is no one to save them lol

      I think House of the Dragon is going to be less controversial, because they are actually going to expand material from Fire and Blood, not cut things like typical adaptations do and also we already know the ending of that story.

        Quote  Reply

    109. BeardedOnion,

      Yeah, who knows. I think GRRM is really struggling with the story and with fan entitlement like this… it won’t be nice, I think. I know there’s a portion of fandom that believes AFFC and ADWD were only carefully setting figures in position and that everything will pay off big time in TWOW. But the way GRRM described the upcoming novel (“it’s not a story…. it’s a collection of ministories”) I actually feel we’ll get another AFFC/ADWD like novel with characters being very limited to their own bubble. Well no wonder considering we have 19 POV characters alive which are spreaded to countless locations. For comparison, ASOS, my personal favorite, had 10 POV characters with its 1100 pages, not to mention some POV characters overlapped in terms of story locations (Sansa/Tyrion in first 800 pages, Jaime/Tyrion in last 400 pages, Arya/Catelyn around Red Wedding, Jon/Sam at the end etc. ) I really wonder how this will turn out.

        Quote  Reply

    110. BeardedOnion:
      At this point there’s no convincible way the book lives up to the hype, over a decade of fan theorizing has built up some high standards and the fandom has become tainted with extreme hate and self-entitlement.

      Anything he releases now that isn’t fast-paced and concluding vast amounts of storylines in a satisfying manner is going to cause shit storms. That’s not to mention the amount of rape in his books which will go down like a shit sandwich now (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.)

      This fandom is beyond saving and GRRM’s books are almost certainly going to stir the pot and reopen old wounds. The best chance we have at restoring some normalcy is the spin off shows being good.

      Add to that: Pretty much any scenario/arc on how to wrap this saga has been discussed to death by the fandom over the last 10-15 years – unless you have Mr. Spock descend from the skies and phaser everyone to oblivion. Peace ever after. Uhura manages the dragons.
      No matter what he writes – some part of the fandom is going to be miffed, without fail.
      Ye know, as is – if GRRM wants to avoid fan backlash, he stops publishing additional material right here and now.

      Hmmm…-uh, wait…!

        Quote  Reply

    111. Young Dragon,

      Ummm… Not to take anything away from HotD hype train, but based on the deadline.com article [below] isn’t HBO’s GoT fandom going to be squealing with delight that two popular GoT alumni have snagged the two lead roles in “The Last of Us”?

      ——————————-
      https://deadline.com/2021/02/pedro-pascal-star-joel-the-last-of-us-hbo-series-video-game-playstation-1234691935/

      Pedro Pascal To Star As Joel In ‘The Last Of Us’ HBO Series Based On Video Game

      By Nellie Andreeva
      February 10, 2021 7:41pm

      EXCLUSIVE: In one of the biggest TV castings of the year, The Mandalorian star Pedro Pascal is set to headline The Last Of Us, HBO’s high-profile series adaptation of the Sony Playstation franchise from Chernobyl creator Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann.

      Based on the critically acclaimed video game The Last of Us, developed by Naughty Dog exclusively for the PlayStation platforms, the story takes place twenty years after modern civilization has been destroyed. Joel (Pascal), a hardened survivor, is hired to smuggle Ellie (Game of Thrones‘ Bella Ramsey), a 14-year-old girl, out of an oppressive quarantine zone. What starts as a small job soon becomes a brutal, heartbreaking journey, as they both must traverse across the U.S. and depend on each other for survival.

      Pascal’s Joel, tormented by past trauma and failure, must trek across a pandemic-ravaged America, all the while protecting a girl who represents the last hope of humanity.

      This marks a homecoming for Pascal who became a household name with his role as Oberyn Martell on HBO’s mega hit Game Of Thrones.

      Pascal currently stars in Disney+’s hugely popular and acclaimed series The Mandalorian, which recently received a Golden Globe nomination for Best Drama Series. I hear he could continue on the Star Wars series, where he is used sparingly because of the premise of his character, though The Last Of Us has him in first position.

      The actor recently became available for a new series, attracting multiple big offers from top premium networks and streamers, opting to do The Last Of Us.

      Pascal is coming off starring as the villain, Max Lord, in Wonder Woman 1984. The Narcos and Kingsman: The Golden Circle star is currently in production on Judd Apatow’s The Bubble for Netflix. He is repped by WME, Anonymous Content and Jackoway Austen Tyerman.

      Kantemir Balagov is directing the pilot episode of The Last Of Us, a co-production with with Sony Pictures Television. PlayStation Productions, Word Games, The Mighty Mint, and Naughty Dog.

      Druckmann and Mazin write and executive produce; Carolyn Strauss (Game of Thrones, Chernobyl) also executive produces along with Naughty Dog president Evan Wells alongside Asad Qizilbash and Carter Swan of PlayStation Productions.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Talvikoppi said, “I don’t think GRRM is quite the genius some of his most ardent fans (acolytes?) think, but he’s a good writer, and it takes time to plot carefully and plant clues in unexpected places. He used to be able to do it much faster, though. Is he believing his own hype and overdoing it?” I think what T____ has said is on point. 10 years is a lo-o-o-o-ng time though.

      I think GRRM can be coarse at times in his writing – which may be appropriate if he’s giving reported speech of a rough and ready character but I wasn’t that impressed with Dany in ‘A Dance Which Drags On’ having a digestive problem being described as the ‘more she drank the more she sh*t’ and in the same book a prostitute is described as grabbing for Jaime’s c*ck – is the word ‘penis’ so awful? It’s possible that some of the opinions discussed periodically as to the pros and cons of both books and show might be more appropriately discussed on the forum section of this site but last time I tried to comment there it was a big fat fail.

        Quote  Reply

    113. I saw something – on the Fentony YouTube channel to the effect that HBO is thinking about doing a Harry Potter TV series but that’s all I know.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Ten Bears,

      I will try to forget Pedro’s role in Wonder Woman. I read your description of “The Last of Us” where as you say, “Pascal’s Joel, tormented by past trauma and failure, must trek across a pandemic-ravaged America, all the while protecting a girl who represents the last hope of humanity.” This reminds me a bit of his role in Prospect. In Prospect, Pedro treks through the woods of another planet with teenager “Cee” played by Sophie Thatcher. They both fight to survive their circumstances and have to learn how to begrudgingly rely on each other.
      That’s alot of pressure for Bella to have to play “The last hope for humanity.”

      Here’s a clip from Prospect. I really like this movie. I may have to rewatch it today. Pedro was so much better in Prospect than his ludicrous role in Wonder Woman. However, I can’t really blame Pedro for Wonder Woman 1984. He did his best with the material he was given. I’m sure it was a big paycheck, but I’m not sure if I would have recommended he accept that role. Prospect on the other hand probably paid minimum wage, but it was a meaty role for him. I know it’s hard to turn down the money, but you can also get over exposed. Here’s a trailer from the low budget Prospect.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Tron79,

      btw, I was just re-watching the Prospect clip, and from a distance I could have sworn Pedro Pascal was Burt Reynolds reincarnated. He had that Burt Reynolds mustache. With the reflection of the space helmet I wasn’t sure if I was seeing Burt for a second….

        Quote  Reply

    116. MaxHightowerYronwood,

      You think anyone would dare pick up the series should he be unable to?! Good god, no on should want the backlash going either direction. If they write it like the GOT ending, why?!?!?! if they write it differently then why?!?!?! Besides, I don’t know who’s write it like Martin. Even his fern description would be missed. I’d be reading an Arianne chapter and I’d go: well, there should have been a fern description here in the woods and where are the brown boobs and big nipples?

      FYI: It’s really not those particular items that I would miss but you would see the jarring discrepancy in writing styles. At least I would. I only wrote about those because I know how many love those here.

        Quote  Reply

    117. TormundsWoman:
      MaxHightowerYronwood,

      You think anyone would dare pick up the series should he be unable to?! Good god, no on should want the backlash going either direction. If they write it like the GOT ending, why?!?!?! if they write it differently then why?!?!?!Besides, I don’t know who’s write it like Martin. Even his fern description would be missed. I’d be reading an Arianne chapter and I’d go: well, there should have been a fern description here in the woods and where are the brown boobs and big nipples?

      FYI: It’s really not those particular items that I would miss but you would see the jarring discrepancy in writing styles. At least I would. I only wrote about those because I know how many love those here.

      What you said made me think of the difference in writing style I noticed in the show once D&D ran out of source material. I am reminded of D&D’s enjoyment of writing comedy for the Dothraki’s lines. I saw a dramatic change once they were left on their own to come up with what to say and do.

        Quote  Reply

    118. talvikorppi,

      I’ve been lurking, very seldom sharing or participating on an online forum for knitters. Now, you’d think knitters are nice people, knitting baby booties and baby blankets and socks and scarves and jumpers. What could be more benign than balls of wool?

      Oh man. Oh internet. The dark side of anonymity indeed. It allows people to be the worst selves without accountability because there are no repercussions.

      This, sadly, reminds of me tomato canning drama. Drama over canning tomatoes! But it’s happened and it was intense. See The Tomato Invasion of 2020, an Inevitable Wave of Bans for the full story!

      I’ve seen the worst of anonymity happen everywhere, even behind-the-scenes on Wikipedia. The accusations, threats, belittling — things one would never say to one’s face in real life is so much easier to say from behind a computer screen with your location and identity hidden.

      I was there. I shared pictures and a running commentary on how I was knitting a thin merino wool base layer (top and bottom) for myself to use when cross-country skiing. Some people asked for instructions, I replied I had none, I just knit a swatch to determine the gauge (stitches per 10cm) and measure myself and work from there. As an example I gave my measurements, the yarn/needle used, the gauge, an example of the maths.

      Next I knew, I was “challenged” by… shall we say kindly, larger women (all of them in the US). For being a sizeist nazi for not providing instructions to make the base layer in their size. I tried to tell them that I’m not a knitwear designer, do your own maths like I did, I’m just sharing my own project, maybe giving tips to others. I’m size 44 (size 16 UK) myself, so hardly small.

      Whohboy! The right-on site managers (US) intervened on my “sizeist prejudice” and I got a pile-on. I was to be shunned as a hateful person.

      Wait, what? Just for explaining to some entitled person, larger than me, that I won’t (indeed can’t) design some knitwear for them for free. And I’m the bad person? Hateful?

      That is incredibly unjust, entitled, and bizarre. So you shared a project you were working on, designed for you, and you’re the bad person for not designing it for all sizes? I can’t, at all, see how this could be construed as “sizeist”. You’re not one-size-fits all, you’re talvikorppi-size!

      When I was making my Bubble Dress from Wicked, I shared the progress too — and I made it to my size. Adriana-sized. It fit me like a glove because I tailored it to my body (namely my torso because that was where I needed the proper fit). Had somebody come to accuse me of being prejudice because I didn’t share the pattern I had created and made it accessible for all sizes… I think my brain would stop working.

      I think people are just sometimes looking for reasons to get upset. Good lord. I think this is another good example of what people are willing to crucify somebody for online vs. offline.

      (Thanks for sharing too! And I’m really sorry this happened to you.)

        Quote  Reply

    119. Dame of Mercia: I think GRRM can be coarse at times in his writing – which may be appropriate if he’s giving reported speech of a rough and ready character but I wasn’t that impressed with Dany in ‘A Dance Which Drags On’ having a digestive problem being described as the ‘more she drank the more she sh*t’

      Yeah, that was a pretty rough passage ^^;;; It wasn’t unrealistic but unfortunately, that made it all the more uncomfortable…. and this particular passage has come to mind more than once in especially relevant situations.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Tron79,

      To be honest, I think it was easier for them to write without the constraints of Martin’s material. They started as fans of the books, looking to adapt them but clearly they are themselves screenwriters and/or writers and therefore at some point their style is simply diverging from Martin’s and it shows. Plus the books are so larger then life and the small screen has its limits. I think they prefer straight lines and forwardness, which is simply not Martin.

      I found their own writing was hit and miss. Mostly hit than miss but what the hell do I know?! I’m just a viewer/reader and as such my objectivity and criticism is influenced by a boatload of more things apart for simply good judgement.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      You cant come on here complaining about internet negativity when you yourself perpetuate it by claiming almost everyone who comments here isn’t worthy of being a GoT fan.

      Until you apologize for that trash, I will absolutely continue to call you out for being a hypocrite.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Mr Derp,

      That’s rough Mr. Derp. Erik is more like venting frequently that he still couldn’t find a proper “GoT appreciation thread” during his time in the fandom.

      And yes, I’ve read his comments before. And he’s bitching all right even though he can’t see it. But that’s what the internet is used for these days, ain’t it?

        Quote  Reply

    123. Tron79,

      I read your description of “The Last of Us” where as you say, “Pascal’s Joel, tormented by past trauma and failure, must trek across a pandemic-ravaged America, all the while protecting a girl who represents the last hope of humanity.”

      Sorry. That was not my description. I had just cut and pasted the text from the deadline.com online article.
      I should have used quotation marks or italics to make that clear.

        Quote  Reply

    124. talvikorppi,

      ”I’ve been lurking, very seldom sharing or participating on an online forum for knitters. Now, you’d think knitters are nice people, knitting baby booties and baby blankets and socks and scarves and jumpers. What could be more benign than balls of wool?

      Ha ha! Don’t forget the knitting needles! (Arya and Ten Bears, take note!) Sharp objects capable of inflicting fatal wounds.

      This international online knitting community descended into a “purity spiral”…

      I was there. I shared pictures and a running commentary on how I was knitting a thin merino wool base layer (top and bottom) for myself to use when cross-country skiing. Some people asked for instructions, I replied I had none, I just knit a swatch to determine the gauge (stitches per 10cm) and measure myself and work from there. As an example I gave my measurements, the yarn/needle used, the gauge, an example of the maths.”

      • I’d like to read your knitting descriptions! I’m sure they depict “high thread count” scenes. (I’ll see myself out in a moment.)

      • I could not help but notice that without any prompting by me, you brought up

      knitting needles! Arya and Ten Bears.” Isn’t that a tacit admission that “All Roads Lead to Arya”?

      😁

        Quote  Reply

    125. talvikorppi,

      ”Now, everybody here knows Ten Bears, and I disagree about Arya. I see her as tragic, vengeange is not the way, he sees her as badass, revenge is good. We both like the character.”

      For what it’s worth, as a show-only fan I wasn’t exposed to the nuances and complexities of book! Arya’s character. Show! Arya came off as a mixture of Batman and Hit Girl, especially after the show passed the books and Arya kills became fist-pump moments for the bar crowds. (I for one was not thrilled with

      the showrunners’ selection of Arya as the Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised To Bring the Dawn, by having her defeat the NK in single combat.)

      ”He took my description, meant to be a bit disparaging, pointing out the cliché, “Arya, super ninja assassin warrior princess” – ASNAWP for short – and made it his own.”

      Guilty as charged. 🙂

      ”Do I “hate” Ten Bears ? Even if his interminable Arya fanboying has actually put me off visiting this site?”
      Of course not! We disagree on some things but he’s a great contributor to the site.”

      Thanks for the compliment. 😁
      I certainly never intended to antagonize anyone. You may have noticed that I’ve been making an effort to tone down the off-putting Arya fanboying, and covering some Arya-centric comments with spoiler-coding.

      ”Yeah, I might’ve gently ribbed him on some occassions, he did it back. We acknowledge that we disagree on some things but we can appreciate each other’s contributions. (I hope!)”

      Yes we can! I sincerely hope nothing I’ve said or done in the past will “put [you] off from visiting this site” going forward. I really do appreciate your contributions.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Nick:
      Holy hell these comments are toxic as hell.
      Zero empathy for a 72 year old man who is responsible for creating a world and story that many of us have as our favorite.

      Zero empathy for the fact that he lost many people who were very close to him last year, and is probably about to lose many more. He also spent a lot of the year in almost complete isolation, which was very difficult for him.

      The pandemic was / is very hard on some people even if they didn’t get sick personally, and obviously he’s one of those people. Despite that fact he made a lot of progress on the book.

      All of these insulting and entitled comments towards him are disgusting, honestly. Have some goddamn respect.

      Agree

        Quote  Reply

    127. Adrianacandle: I think GRRM has said he’s not willing to employ a ghost writer either, that he wants to be the one who writes ASOIAF.

      Sadly, I think that comes with a potentially large consequence of its own…

      Who can blame him? We already got a different writer (s) version of rhe ending and look how that turned out.

      And in any case, who would be up to that task? And please don’t say Sanderson :/

      I already made my peace, if we get it we get it, if not there’s plenty of other great book series

        Quote  Reply

    128. Pau: Who can blame him? We already got a different writer (s) version of rhe ending and look how that turned out.

      And in any case, who would be up to that task? And please don’t say Sanderson :/

      It was just an observation, not a demand 🙂 I agree that GRRM should be the only one to finish ASOIAF.

      I already made my peace, if we get it we get it, if not there’s plenty of other great book series

      I have too and I also think GRRM doesn’t owe us anything. What we get, we get! I just feel frustrated by these updates because it’s the same stuff he’s been saying for years (and I’m 100% certain it’s said in all earnestness) and the fandom gets all riled up again (but that’s not to condone any misbehavior on the fandom’s part! As Neil Gaiman once said, “George R. R. Martin is not your bitch.”)

      I only wish he didn’t feel he had to justify himself or make promises and I am sympathetic to his struggles. ASOIAF has become this behemoth of a book and I can’t imagine what an insane task it would be to bring everything together for a coherent and satisfying conclusion. I want to curl up into a ball thinking about it.

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    129. How would you guys feel about D&D writing a novelization of S7 and S8?

      Martin might release TWOW one day if the book readers are lucky. But ADOS? Fuhgettaboutit – not a chance in hell. But all is not lost. TWOW will basically be analogous to the end of S5 and most of S6, just with way more stuff added. Then, S7 & S8 are basically what Martin has in mind for ADOS (for the most part; I could see some stuff from S7 like Sam’s time at the Citadel being in TWOW). D&D have written novels before, particularly Benioff, who released “City of Thieves” back in ’08, a historical fiction coming-of-age story set in the WWII Siege of Leningrad. That book was very well-received and it was a major inspiration behind “The Last of Us,” one of the most well-written games in recent memory.

      Now, have any of you ever read Matthew Stover’s novelization of “Return of the Sith”? I’m not even that big a fan of the movie and that novelization is fucking incredible. A great novelization can take even a humdrum source and turn it into something beautiful. Perhaps D&D (or someone else) could take the story told by S7 and S8 and do the same. Maybe they could even put stuff that Martin had in mind for ADOS like sidebars and minor characters (Varys’s little birds, anyone?) into the book that they wanted to put in the show but would have bogged down the pacing. Perhaps most importantly, it would grant the opportunity for narration of a character’s inner thought processes, which would shed new light on things like Dany’s choice to destroy King’s Landing.

      I’d be all for this (after Martin inevitably fails to deliver ADOS), especially if D&D or Cogman write it, because it would be the closest thing to ADOS fans will ever get.

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    130. Farimer123,

      Personally, I think I’d prefer to see what GRRM had planned for the ending of his books, even if in rough outline form. D&D’s GoT and GRRM’s ASOIAF have already diverged on some significant points early on and with that, the story between the two versions started to differ even then quite a bit. As it is, we’ve already got D&D’s vision, I’d like to see what GRRM has in mind for his story that he started way back in the early 90s. For instance, D&D paired down the magic and prophecy quite a bit in GoT whereas magic and prophecy is pretty significant in ASOIAF for better or for worse. Or what the deal is with the Others. Maybe they aren’t the all-out-evil they’re believed to be? Sansa’s storyline was pretty much changed from season 5-onward by D&D’s own admission because they love Sansa and wanted to expand her storyline. Tyrion gets pretty damn dark in book 5. The impact of LSH, etc.

      We don’t know what changes have been made between the unpublished books and adaptations and I think those will make some crucial differences as well. I think the bare bones will be the same but how things manifest may be pretty different thanks to all these different details (GRRM’s comments on the “butterfly effect”).

      Plus, I think it should be on GRRM’s terms that he releases the yet-unknown details of TWOW and ADOS. Even if it he just releases a rough outline, like Ten Bears suggested! 🙂

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    131. talvikorppi,

      I’m sorry you were trolled on a knitting site of all things. I admire you for being able to knit without a pattern. I CAN knit though I’m not very prolific and somewhat slow. I’ve dabbled with a lucet to make icord during lockdown and used an improvised spool knitter (plastic cup) to make some fingerless gloves but the cup wasn’t robust enough really.

      Trolling is a part of internet life I fear. I won’t name the site but there was a forum (nothing to do with GoT) I used to visit and I started getting passive aggressive comments from another lady. I wasn’t going to let her ‘bounce’ me off the forum but I do visit that site less now.

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    132. Ten Bears,

      Ha ha ha! You bet my knitting is “high thread count”! Right now, the craze in my country is Icelandic outdoor jumpers (12 to 14 stitches per 10cm), I’m mostly knitting stuff with 26 to 32 stitches per 10cm!

      I’ll be honest. Some time ago, your (and some others’) excessive fanboying about Arya, “hijacking” every thread, did put me off from commenting – even reading comments – though I’d regularly check in to see if there were any interesting articles. That was my own choice. I just didn’t find engaging in or even reading the comments interesting enough for me to spend my time on.

      I didn’t “hate” (such a strong word, now so readily thrown around as a synonym for “disagree” or even “dislike”) you or the couple of other commenters. You do your thing, nothing compells me to participate, I can go do my own completely different thing somewhere else. The downside is that I probably missed some interesting (non-Arya-related 😉 ) conversations. Ho-hum, you win some, you lose some, it hasn’t “ruined my life”. And it’s nice to be participating here again after a long hiatus.

      As to our differing views on Arya. I don’t think it’s only about her differing portrayals in the books/show. The show overall presented revenge in a somewhat positive light (as kind of “justice”) whereas if you read the books, GRRM is very much agains revenge, nothing good can ever come out of it.

      Now, GRRM knows that people are all to easily sucked into a cycle of revenge (witness the petty online spats in our time! 😀 ), especially if they feel they or their loved ones have been wronged. It’s human instinct. The “civilized” thing is to seek redress and justice from the relevant authorities (e.g. the Riverlanders taking their case to the Iron Throne, when Ned sat on it). But what do you do when authority breaks up, there’s no course for justice? These are the difficult questions GRRM asks of the readers.

      GRRM seems to fall on the side that vigilante justice is not a good thing and personal revenge certainly isn’t. The show took the easier way, not asking as many complicated and complex questions, at times even glorifying revenge e.g. Sansa and Ramsay’s hounds – though I think it was meant to give pause… As I think half-heartedly were many of Arya’s acts of revenge on the show. They just got buried under the hype and fistpumping. Natural, human first reaction. On reflection, maybe not so great, but the hype train is well away by now…

      So I think the flavour of the books and the show is quite different in some ways. The show is more mainstream and, for a better word, “popular” (“populist”??), the books are a bit more ambiguous and challenging. That’s understandable, a tv-show hoping to become a major international hit – like GoT undobtedly was – has to pare down the ambiguous philosophy. And (excessively) complex stories, otherwise it just wouldn’t be watchable TV.

      Anyway, I loved the show GoT. About as much as my previous benchmark “Shogun”. I love the ASOIAF books, even the supplementary books. I think I’m in the perfect situation of loving both, not “hating” either. 😀

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    133. Dame of Mercia,

      Aah, is GRRM a great writer or not?

      Well, I’d say he’s not among the literary giants but he’s a very good popular fiction writer. Sometimes elevating his writing above the tropes and clichés of his genre.

      Unpopular opinion: I liked AFFC for its slow-paced descriptions of the war-devastated lands, especially Brienne’s chapters. I love them. There’s such a sense of her own confusion, such a sense of foreboding. All those ominous pinewoods and bogs in Cracklaw Point, I was on the edge of my seat… and the outcome is the tragic end of Nimble Dick and Brienne’s realisation: she should’ve trusted him. Also, she kills for the first time. It’s a huge thing for her. (The show had her a comptent killer already when she was escorting Jaime and I can understand why they made that change and I think it was a good change for the show.)

      Then the beautiful description of the approach to the Quiet Isle plus everything that happened there – how can people call that “boring” and “filler”?? 😀 OK, we all like different things.

      That said, GRRM has occassionally slipped. “Myrish swamp”? “Fat pink mast”? OK, I get it, he was trying to write from the POV of a woman experimenting lesbian relations with a foreign – Myrish – woman, or from the POV of fat young guy with low self esteem, but really? “fat pink mast”?

      GRRM isn’t very good at writing sex scenes, and, thankfully, he has mostly veered away from them.

      I don’t mind the word “cock”, but then, English isn’t my first language so maybe I don’t see how offensive it might seem to an Engish person. I don’t even mind “cunt”, which is very offensive (unless you’re Scottish?)

      Jaime’s POV, especially inner monologue, just wouldn’t use the word “penis”, it’s not a word he’d use (even knows?). He’s basically a soldier, talks like a soldier. Crude? Maybe, but soldier talk, even modern-day lockerroom talk is crude.

      Adrianacandle,

      Ahah ha ha ha! Thanks for the link to the “tomato wars”! 😀

      Proves my point. Whatever the subject, online communities can sink into purity spirals of banning “wrongthink” on any subject!

      And no, I wasn’t traumatised by my bizzarre experiences at the knitting forum, I just stepped back and let them stew, their problem, not mine. I wasn’t banned so I can still go and view interesting, knitting-related stuff. But yeah, I’ve been “silenced” from engaging more. For “wrongthink”.

      Now, being “silenced” on a knitting forum hardly devastates my life. but it’s a scary scenario. What if I wanted to engage – politely, reasonably – on a political forum, and some cabal thought I “wrongthought”, piled on, got me banned? Eh? Freedom of speech? Democracy? Eh?

      Yet, this is happening all the time.

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    134. Pau: Who can blame him? We already got a different writer (s) version of rhe ending and look how that turned out.

      And in any case, who would be up to that task? And please don’t say Sanderson :/

      I already made my peace, if we get it we get it, if not there’s plenty of other great book series

      Pau, Pau, Pau. Always the white knight for GRRM. Not that he gives a sh*it about you…or me, for that matter.

      But the type of stuff that´’ s gotta zing is when people like Steven Soderbergh take the royal piss out of him in their movies:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-CUJxIQkpA

      Lulz!
      And this clip is 4 years old.

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    135. Cumsprite,

      Everyone but you knows that you don’t respond to farts.

      The polite thing to do is ignore them and pretend that person didn’t stink up the whole thread.

      Which until now all posters did.

      I hope you’re happy at the thing you’ve done.

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    136. flintstonewielder,

      🤔 Did I hear that correctly? [Scene from “Logan Lucky”]

      Rioting prison inmates’ list of demands includes a copy of Winds of Winter, and when the warden says it’s not out yet, the inmates’ leader protests, “That’s bullsh*t! George RR Martin said it would be released two years ago!”

      And that movie clip was posted four years ago…🙄

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    137. Ten Bears:
      flintstonewielder,

      🤔 Did I hear that correctly? [Scene from “Logan Lucky”]

      Rioting prison inmates’ list of demands includes a copy of Winds of Winter, and when the warden says it’s not out yet, the inmates’ leader protests, “That’s bullsh*t! George RR Martin said it would be released two years ago!”

      And that movie clip was posted four years ago…🙄

      Hilarious, isn’t it?

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    138. Mr Derp:
      Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,

      You cant come on here complaining about internet negativity when you yourself perpetuate it by claiming almost everyone who comments here isn’t worthy of being a GoT fan.

      Until you apologize for that trash, I will absolutely continue to call you out for being a hypocrite.

      A.K.A you’re forever going to be the one who can’t move on and continue to “harass” me even when I’m not talking to you (because newsflash, I’ve been pretty much ignoring you for months if you haven’t noticed). Thanks, that’s all I needed to hear. At least I won’t have any bad conscience when I continue to ignore you. If I’m such terrible person in your eyes, just don’t think you’re any better than me.

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    139. TormundsWoman:
      Cumsprite,

      Everyone but you knows that you don’t respond to farts.

      Of course you do. Farts are fuuuuuuuuuny! My favorite is “The Al Qaeda”. That’s where you lay down a little popcorn toot, wait for people to notice. “Is that a fart?” they wonder. They look around, sniff the air a bit to confirm their suspicions. Then you REALLY drop your guts.

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    140. Nick:
      Holy hell these comments are toxic as hell.
      Zero empathy for a 72 year old man who is responsible for creating a world and story that many of us have as our favorite.

      Zero empathy for the fact that he lost many people who were very close to him last year, and is probably about to lose many more. He also spent a lot of the year in almost complete isolation, which was very difficult for him.

      The pandemic was / is very hard on some people even if they didn’t get sick personally, and obviously he’s one of those people. Despite that fact he made a lot of progress on the book.

      All of these insulting and entitled comments towards him are disgusting, honestly. Have some goddamn respect.

      No, we won’t let up. He has had 10 damn years… he’s a busy man? Well I’d like to actually finish the story before I die of Old age.

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