George R.R. Martin thinks The Winds of Winter “will be out this year”

GRRM

Yesterday, George R.R. Martin provided a tentatively optimistic update on The Winds of Winter on his Not A Blog, stating that he “think[s]” the sixth installment of A Song of Ice and Fire will be ready for release this year.

Martin responded to a fan’s request for an update on The Winds of Winter in the comment section of his post, “Doom, Despair, Defeat.” Martin wrote:

You really think statements like that would make a difference? Ah, you sweet summer child. I have years of experience with this that tells me otherwise.

But okay, I will try it your way.

Not done yet, but I’ve made progress. But not as much as I hoped a year ago, when I thought to be done by now.

I think it will be out this year. (But hey, I thought the same thing last year).

This is the first progress report we’ve received from Martin since he announced just over a year ago that TWOW would not be released in 2016.

226 responses

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    1. And now this will make the press rounds, and he’ll get word of it, and he won’t talk again about this because there will be all this pressure for him to have it out this year. And then he won’t have it out this year.

      Great!

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    2. I wouldn’t bet on it coming out this year that’s for sure. If he hasn’t made as much progress as he hoped for that doesn’t even give me faith his half written the book it tells me he may have writers block. Oh well, maybe when the show is finished it will give him more inspiration to keep going and give him less distractions. The book readers just may be waiting quite a while for his ending but I think everyone should of learned their lesson by now that he takes years to write a series and hey should expect it to take quite a few more years before he finishes the series.

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    3. Still sticking to my original prediction.

      Winds of Winter: Sometimes in 2018
      Dream of Spring: Never.

      The TV show will be the only (and therefore the true) ending to this story.

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    4. It’s never coming out. He was losing interest in the series for a long time, and now that the show has spoiled several things that happened in the books, he’s taking even longer to write because he probably wants to remove those spoiled events from the books or at least dramatically alter them in some way.

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    5. Yep, writer’s block or he’s simply not confident and/or happy with the story ideas he’s coming up with. Perhaps he’s gotten so accustom to expanding the story that he’s unable to start constricting it like he should be, as the show has begun to do. The sample chapters certainly don’t indicate anything other than continued expansion. Five completed books in the series in over twenty years is maddening for fans. Jordan released the first 11 WoT novels in just over 15 years.

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    6. Clob: Perhaps he’s gotten so accustom to expanding the story that he’s unable to start constricting it like he should be, as the show has begun to do.

      That may be a large part of it. The world opened up so dramatically in books four and five that it’s difficult to imagine how all of it could tie together in just two more books. If he starts refocusing the story suddenly it will feel rushed, and the new plot threads from AFFC and ADWD will feel redundant (even more so than they have been accused of.) However, continuing with that slower pacing will not only mean the story will take much longer to finish but also that it won’t feel like a climax; The pacing in those books may be fine for the middle of the story, but not for an ending. He doesn’t have it easy. I wonder if he regrets expanding the world and the POVs so much after A Storm of Swords.

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    7. So all the folks who were complaining a week ago, ‘It’s the New Year, George owes his fans an update,’ are now going to complain because they got their update and it doesn’t say that Winds is finished. Figures. Back to sharpening your axes to behead the golden goose.

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    8. I think there’s a chance we might get something this year, but my prediction would be 2018. I would be very surprised if we don’t get it before the end of the decade. ADOS though? Unlikely in my book, but even if he does get that one out it won’t make much of a difference because I can’t see the story being finished in seven books. I’ve been saying for years that it will take eight books for George to finish the story to a standard he feels is acceptable. The simple fact is that the story has become far too bloated, and I can’t see George managing to cleanly end it in seven book.s When TWOW comes out we’ll have a better idea of whether he can finish in seven.

      We’re now coming up to six years since ADWD was published. The five year wait after ASOS was blamed on the rewrite after the abandoned five year gap; the six year wait after AFFC was blamed on the Meereneese knot. What’s his excuse this time? Another knot most likely.

      George is getting older, and I totally understand that he’s going to be slower than he was twenty years ago, but when you’re already a slow writer, and you’ve created a convoluted series with far too many plotlines you’re going to have difficulty finishing it.

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    9. Firannion:
      So all the folks who were complaining a week ago, ‘It’s the New Year, George owes his fans an update,’ are now going to complain because they got their update and it doesn’t say that Winds is finished. Figures. Back to sharpening your axes to behead the golden goose.

      Pretty much….

      It’s out when it’s out. I’m managing to live my life all the same. ?

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    10. So he thought that he could have had TWOW finished by the end of 2015, and now he is not even sure that he will finish it during 2017? LOL

      No comment.

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    11. mau:
      So he thought that he could have had TWOW finished by the end of 2015, and now he is not even sure that he will finish it during 2017? LOL

      No comment.

      His hope to finish 2015 was encouraged by his publishers who seem to be just as deluded as he is that he will finish this book this side of the century. I really think with a better editor/publisher TWOW would be out by now, and we wouldn’t be that far off ADOS.

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    12. Firannion:
      So all the folks who were complaining a week ago, ‘It’s the New Year, George owes his fans an update,’ are now going to complain because they got their update and it doesn’t say that Winds is finished. Figures. Back to sharpening your axes to behead the golden goose.

      Where are all these malcontents hanging out? I haven’t seen hide nor hair of them in my corner. They sound new to GURMapalooza and might be in need of a little guidance. Focus that energy into something constructive. Show them how to register a LiveJournal account.

      I hope one of them has Photoshop.

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    13. He’s been saying that for a few years. He thought he’d be done with ADWD in 2007-8 and we know how that turned out.

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    14. He has a bad combination of writers block and the fact that he wrote himself into mess with the last 2 books. Too many characters and the universe got too big. He will be lucky to get book 6 out before Season 7 spoils some of the Book 7 material. This is the equivalent of Peter Jackson putting The Return of the King in theaters before Tolkien finished it.

      A lot of people mocked people like me for saying the book series wouldn’t finish in time for the show. And even more mocked when we said he would probably never finish the series.

      Every January that is looking like more and more of a reality.

      The moderators at the Westeros forum are so hurt they shut down theads about this topic in the main forum. Weird place that website has become.

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    15. I’m really looking forward to TWOW because I’m absolutely convinced that there is no way that GRRM is able to write a good book with 20 POV characters.

      I can’t see how TWOW won’t be even bigger mess than the last two books.

      But I’m still rooting for GRRM to prove me wrong.

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    16. They say (my mother has always been a great recounter of “They Says”) that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. GRRM is guilty as hell. He took forever on Feast and Dance, yet refused to change his approach when he started writing Winds. His protestations fall flat on that account.

      I find myself beginning to agree with those who claim that GRRM, who rose to fame on the basis of his short stories and TV episodes, has no clue how to write an epic fantasy, and refuses to admit it.

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    17. The Bastard: He has a bad combination of writers block and the fact that he wrote himself into mess with the last 2 books. Too many characters and the universe got too big. He will be lucky to get book 6 out before Season 7 spoils some of the Book 7 material.

      Agreed. He could follow a lot of the show’s narrative paths if they’re congruent with his plot and character status at the end of ADWD plus WOW sample chapters. But the simplest thing would be for Qyburn to invent a mediaeval H-bomb and take out Dorne and Meereen while major, non-expendable characters are elsewhere. Seriously, if he can do the hardest thing any popular, outgoing, convivial and overly-imaginative 68-YO writer can do–keep the seat of the pants in the seat of the chair–he could finish this year. I won’t hold my breath, but one can hope.

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    18. I read all of the books after S2. Lucky me but unlucky I forgot most of it, including things I was DYING to know in Winds. That coupled with George’s lack of involvement with the show made me lose interest. It’s art. It requires inspiration. He wants to enjoy his life. Can’t blame him. Sucks but grateful for the sample chapters that I’ve already forgotten. The show calmed the cravings by showing us how George’s masterpiece ends.

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    19. Playing this game over at Fleabottom net. Where were you in August of 2000, the last time GM put out a half decent book?

      Unreal that it’s only been two books since then.

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    20. The Bastard,

      He has a bad combination of writers block and the fact that he wrote himself into mess with the last 2 books. Too many characters and the universe got too big.

      Sounds more like writer’s deluge than writer’s block.

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    21. Rygritte,

      “There are days I wonder if I bit off more than I can chew, where I sit around telling myself, “Did it really have to be seven kingdoms? Why couldn’t it have been five kingdoms?” Five kingdoms would’ve been a lot.”

      Yes, he definitely does regret it now. Alas, it’s a little too late for that.

      Source: http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/talk-to-al-jazeera/articles/2014/11/13/george-rr-martintalkstodavidshuster.html

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    22. Sure Jan!

      I wonder if the book sales will be affected now that the show has overtaken it.

      Personally, I’m only interested in a very small number of POVs.

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    23. Flayed Potatoes,

      I’m with you on the interest in a select number of plot lines. Mine are Daenerys, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, and Jaime to a lesser level. Essentially the main-main book characters mostly. All the late adds of Dornish stuff, fAegon, even Euron… just delaying and getting in the way. I seriously believe his adding so much Martell content has been a major bind on the flow of the story and finishing it, yet he continues to write more of it. imo.

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    24. Luka Nieto,

      I remember reading a article about a author who is good friends with G.R.R.Martin I forget his name and he was asked if he took any inspiration from Martin’s writing and he said no way, as much as he admires Martin he can’t write like him because unlike a lot of normal authors apparently Martin has no actual outlines for his books he just writes as his inspired.
      The problem with this is though that may be good when your first starting off a book, having no restrictions and letting your imagination run wild. When you get near the end of a story those outlines and restrictions help you finish the story so it has a beginning, a middle and a end but because he doesn’t have that it’s gonna be pretty impossible for him to know even where to begin to start ending it as he probably created too many threads that he didn’t actually need too late in the story so now he has to complete or resolve those threads if he wants to reunite and meet up other certain characters and combine those POV and threads together. In a way it’s a good thing D&D cut a lot of characters and threads out because they would of been caught in the same situation especially if Martin didn’t know what he was gonna do with those characters and threads.
      It would probably be better if Martin doesn’t limit himself with two books alone so his not as restricted when he doesn’t have a outline and perhaps writing a even basic outline for what he wants to happen would benefit him and make things slightly less daunting for him. Maybe he will have less pressure after GOT S8 is completely finished because the fame and frenzy of it will quiet down a bit.

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    25. Somewhere, in an alternate universe just slightly different from our own, a writer named George R. R. Martin decided to stick with his plan to have a five-year gap after Volume 3 of his popular fantasy series, despite the narrative difficulties it posed.

      In that universe, TV watchers awaiting Season 7 – the final season of Game of Thrones – are pleading for book readers not to spoil the ending of “A Dream of Spring”, the fifth and final book of the series, while book readers wait nervously to see how D&D have adapted Martin’s powerful but controversial ending to his saga.

      I want to go there.

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    26. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me…. um… geez, I’ve lost count. Hmmm, the old line about insanity and repetition comes to mind here.

      😀

      Seriously, let’s hope that GRRM’s hoping is not too naive.

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    27. Mel,

      This is why the only book I’ve ever published is a childrens’ book. LOL. I can’t even imagine trying to put together a series….but then, I’m incredibly impatient with myself, so I wouldn’t even begin….

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    28. Luka Nieto: If he starts refocusing the story suddenly it will feel rushed, and the new plot threads from AFFC and ADWD will feel redundant (even more so than they have been accused of.)

      It is a big Catch-22. If the new protagonists in Crows/Dragons are not important at the climax, then they will seem pointless. However, if the new protagonists in Crows/Dragons are important in the climax, then it will water down the over-arching story because they’ve gotten so much less dynamic development than the primary protagonists.

      My bet is that it will wind up being the former: the “Big Six” from the first three books will be the relevant characters at the climax. That probably would be for the best from a purely literary point of view: the characters that were not in the first three books cannot provide as powerful of arcs for delivering the over-arching story.

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    29. Pigeon,

      Oh what children’s book? Haha I imagine that’s why a lot of writers start with standalone books instead of series, make their way up to harder stuff. I don’t know how authors like Stephen King consistently put out good books, his published a few in a year before, Dark Tower is a great series he did but he was smart to not start off with it and instead increase his writing ability by publishing stand alone books first so he would be prepared for a big series. There are quite a few authors who start off with a series but take many years to finish it or have to have family members or close friends help finish it because it took so long to get done and either can’t write it anymore or die of old age. Basically if you plan a big series you better be prepared to dedicate a huge chunk of your life to it.

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    30. Mel,

      It’s not one that anyone would have heard of – it’s called Swirlybirds and consists of a number of verses with accompanying silly cartoon bird paintings. I was bored one Christmas, rehab birds, and like googly eyes, so….LOL. They make for good baby shower gifts, however! ?

      Oh I agree – so much work, and I can’t fathom the amount of discipline involved! How some writers just keep coming up with the plots that they do (and the solutions! Ha!) amazes me. So much creativity.

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    31. The Bastard,

      Yes, moderators on westeros.org are unbelievably defensive and insecure. I was shocked, really. Anything like what is being posted in this thread (which is frankly completely innocuous) is shut down.

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    32. The Bastard,

      I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the WoW is written or perhaps even finished, but reckon GRRM is constantly re-editing parts of it and why its taking so long? Problem is of course if some of the characters story lines/arcs are changed in the earlier chapters in the book, that will permeate throughout the rest of the novel?

      It would seem the way GRRM works is to write a POV chapter straight off the top of his head and maybe doesn’t have some overall plan of how it will all fit together? With a project of this nature, I would thing one needs to use something like a flow chart such as like computer programmers use to build up the blocks and paths and once the overall structure of how all the bits fit together is known then work on each block (a POV chapter) to fill in the fine details?

      I have never read the books, but know they go into much greater detail than the TV show does. However, sounds like he’s bitten off more than he can chew by adding so many minor characters into his novels? The current total of named characters is 2,102 which is HUGE. Ok probably a lot of those have died or been killed off, but even so he must find it neigh on impossible to keep track of the ones that are still alive and feature in the story!

      If from the start he keep the number of characters down to say a few hundred over the book series, it would have been a lot easier to control and probably all the novels would have been finished years ago. After all, the main POV characters are not so many, but its all the dross he’s added along with them!

      Just my pennies worth on the issue 🙂

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    33. When I see, “DONE!” on Not a Blog, I’ll believe it.

      Mel,

      Not a good example, as Stephen King started Dark Tower in 1970 and let it stew in his brain for years. But point taken on his productivity.

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    34. jonathan:
      The Bastard,

      Yes, moderators on westeros.orgare unbelievably defensive and insecure. I was shocked, really. Anything like what is being posted in this thread (which is frankly completely innocuous) is shut down.

      They have been that way–even downright abusive–since well before the TV show came out. Steer clear, my friends!

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    35. Pigeon,

      Aww that sounds really cute, it’s funny what the brain can suddenly create

      Ashara D,

      Yeah I know but I liked his idea of even though the first Dark Tower novel is the first book he ever wrote he waited until he published other books and polished up his skill before going back to it and fixing it up before publishing it even though now his still unhappy with his first book in that series but he deemed it necessary to kick off the series.

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    36. Thank goodness I´m not into those books anymore…found the fourth unreadable and the fifth very lacking…The Show will end the story for me; if WOW comes anytime time during the next two years, maybe I´ll read the internet summaries and skip the never ending food stories and WTF POV´s of needless and forgetable terciary characters…the last book(S) will never be written in my opinion so,closing with the Show,moving along to the next big thing 🙂 Pity it has to be that way; I did like very much the story

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    37. Sue, could you check through your sources whether Sam Claflin is in GoT or not, please?

      I was looking at Aisling Franciosi’s twitter subscriptions and on of the recent ones is Claflin and the subscription is mutual. I couldn’t find any other projects where they work together, so I assumed, he might be our Rhaegar. Actors subscribe each others’ twitters when they work together, don’t they? I thought, maybe he did a flashback with Aisling.

      I mean, this could be nothing but he really looks like someone who would be up for that role.

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    38. Too late. I already lost my interest in the books and the amazing S6 only proved to me that TV series is the only continuity I need. I couldn’t care less about the books at this point and I hope book purists eat themselves alive. At this point, I really do not expect book 6 to be out before the end of TV series. Really, could the writer at least admit he screwed up?

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    39. I´m optimistic about Winds coming out this year, but I think Martin will need more books. He is spending at least 150-200 pages to really finish Dance´s arcs.

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    40. If GRRM is being honest and loyal to his fans then I hope after he releases TWOW he outright says that its the last books and doesn’t make his fans wait. .
      Because its certainly not going to end with seven books ..

      He said this exact thing last year and the year before that and year before that ..
      Anyone remember 2014 winter solistace how excited and hyped fans were that time and now we are in 2017 ..

      At this point I feel sorry for those who keep defending him or they just try to be cooler than those demanding fans ..
      GRRm is a very good writer who has given us a great series ..I don’t think anyone is going to dispute that ..we must be very greatful for him ..
      But at the same time he is not a professional ..
      If a man keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over each and every year but does nothing to change his actions or try something different to get the job done ..what it says about the man

      Whenever somone asks about progress of the books or complain about the lack thereof and him showing up at awards and matches and cons…people will come up with a response that Geniuses can’t be rushed and we should give him all the time he needs to produce a quality material ( despite the fact that his quality only declined when he began taking time ) ..

      Now look what happens GRRM has cancelled all his appointments and forcing himself stay at house and write for almost Two years now..
      Isn’t this the fans were asking of him and his defenders said he can’t do that …
      Is he not trying to rush his work..

      Everytime someone says You can’t rush genius..iam reminded of the pilot episode of Castle
      Where Castle’s ex wife/publisher says ” genius castle ,try blockage “..
      Wish his publishers and editors were bold enough to stand up to him atleast once..

      He may not owe us anything ..he may not be our bitch

      But eventually even those hardcore book readers will lose interest and move on to something new and most readers will be ok with the show’s ending..

      But GRRm will be losing his legacy as tolkein of the era and be remembered as the author of the series which is finished by show ( iam not even talking about his health when I say he won’t finish the series .,it based on how he works and his writing and the fact he may lose interest in this series after show finishes )..
      While we may admire him as an author who produced a great series ..I certainly don’t think anyone can take him as an role model or look upto him ..because he has proven time and again how he can’t keep his promises deadlines ..

      And you know what makes this more disappointing… If you have asked me two year before I would have said I will be very happy with only getting TwOW and season 8 will be enough for an ending ..but at the way season 6 and season 7 seems to be rushing towards the end and characters keep acting OOC or character development all over the place ( many may disagree .,but thats how I view it )
      So in a way iam loolomg forward to getting an ending from show.
      But iam afraid we can’t keep discussing the character motivations or go analysing in depth of the characters and their decisions because its clear that show is only getting to certain points and not worrying about the continuity..

      So this great series has two producers ( GRRm amd D&D )and is in two medium ( book and show ) ..where one seems to be too slow other seems to be rushing towards the ending ( at least I can understand D&D situation) …its a damn shame we can’t find the middle ground ..I feel bad for the fans and readers of this series who had been on online part of this fandom analysing every minor details for more than a decade ..

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    41. Clob,

      I’m not covering this comment because the sub-plots I’m alluded to don’t feature in the TV show but I think GRRM had the fAegon plot in mind as long ago as ACOK (the warning to book Daenerys to beware the Mummer’s Dragon in the House of Dying); similarly, she had a vision of a man with a grey face lashed to a ship figurehead which could be the Damphair as in one of the sample chapters released from TWoW. That said, I soon got fed up of the Griffs and games of Cyvasse and musings on where did whores go and I wasn’t overly struck on the Iron Born either. Dorne was changed a lot from the books of course – I thought the idea of the eldest child being able to inherit the principality even if she was a girl was interesting.

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    42. Ashara D: They have been that way–even downright abusive–since well before the TV show came out. Steer clear, my friends!

      I didn’t know it had been going on that long. I went over there yesterday just to see if things had changed but it hadn’t. It is absolutely bizarre that you can’t talk about the future release of a book on a website devoted to the book series.

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    43. If GRRM is true to his word – that he’s not writing for the show until down with Winds – then he’s probably only got 2-3 months to finish with Winds before they start writing the scrips for the final season. It’s going to be close and I’m not optimistic he’ll write an episode next year unless he back tracks on his 2016 statement.

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    44. I don’t know where this is coming from but even of he finishes TWOW before season 8 scripts ..I don’t see him writing an episode for season 8 ..

      He takes a month to write an episode which is based on his own books which he had already written …imagine how long it will take him to write an episode considering how much the show is gone ahead of the books …

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    45. I have asked this question so many times… I have all five books at home, but haven’t read them yet. I want too, just cause I love this world and cant get enough of it, and as a fan of reading, I thought it would be good to do so.

      Should I even bother? Its a shitty feeling to start something and not have its ending.

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    46. He wrote in his not a blog last year when asked if he would write for the show again he said he’d be happy to do it but only after he has finished Winds. I really hope he writes the final episode so we get his ending as much as possible.

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    47. I am sorry but the only appropriate reaction I can come up with after the statement that TWOW might be out in 2017 is:

      “HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA”
      (in a highly sceptical way)

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    48. I truly think he will never finish his series. The showrunners are not perfect but they have successfully moved past his biggest mistakes. They got rid of so many characters that don’t matter so they can focus on the characters that do.

      I also realized something and it bothers me to this day… I don’t think he knows how it will end. I don’t think he even knows who Azor Ahai will be.. that’s why it fits soooo many characters. He left it open so that he could choose later. I even think he left it open for A LOT of characters to be secret Targaryens.

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    49. ghost of winterfell,

      Thank you ..yeah got affected by chicken pox and had to keep up on the work for all those sick days..

      Dee Stark,

      My advice is wait till the show ends ..
      And by that time you will also have TWOW released and on your hands ..
      By doing this you won’t get to wait for the remaining story and have that shitty feeling..

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    50. Dee Stark,

      I have a different answer than the others ☺

      I think you should read the books. If you like world building, then there are lots of details in the books back-stories, histories and myths that are not in the show. The characters are more fleshed out, especially ones like Jon and Dany where a lot of their struggles are internal, so reading their thoughts helps to understand them better.

      Even if the books don’t get finished, I don’t regret reading them, because they expanded my understanding of the world. And I have the show to thank, because it will give me the ending, so it’s not like we will have no idea how it all ends.

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    51. Dee Stark,

      Its very difficult to say because we don’t know how far GRRm is going to cover in TWoW ..

      But I would definitely say you can read the first three books AGOT ,ACOK and ASoS ..iam sure you will enjoy those and get to understand more inner thoughts of characters and scenes which are from first 4 seasons

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    52. You can always read just the first 3 books. The ending of A Storm of Swords feels like a certain amount of closure. Those 3 books will help flesh out the rest of the series.

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    53. Dee Stark:
      Okay, lets say I wait till 2018, after the show ends, and I have Winds of Winter, would you recommend reading the series without book 7?

      Go ahead and read books 1-3 – they are really excellent and you will enjoy them. Don’t bother with books 4-5. They aren’t very good and the differences with the show will most likely annoy you.

      I have seen dedicated and happy non book reader fans become crazy book nuts after reading, angry about completely reasonable changes that the show runners made.

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    54. Dee Stark,

      There will be no Book 7 written by GRRM and there is a chance that the last book will be ADWD.

      This may be a controversial opinion, but I think that the best thing that could happen to the books would be GRRM’s death or if he abandons the series, so someone else could finish it using his ideas, but with real passion for this story, not just the world he created.

      He became George Lucas of this saga. It’s time for him to step aside.

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    55. QueenofThrones,

      Books 4 and 5 would have made for horrible television if they did a straight adaption. Too many new characters. Too many boring plot lines.

      The show did amazing with what they had.

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    56. A little perspective is helpful when looking at GRRM’s productivity or lack thereof, IMO.

      Those who say he’s “unprofessional” – by any measure the guy is an incredible almost unmatched professional success story in his genre. He created something that millions of people consumed and are generally obsessed with. He lives a rich lifestyle and even has the ability to be a philanthropist and start a variety of interesting projects that help others (BTW if you’re ever in Santa Fe PLEASE check out the museum “Meow Wolf” that he funded – it’s f-ing amazing).

      Sure it’s annoying to fans and we want more (and obviously his publishers would love to publish more of ASOIAF since it is making them a bundle as well), but if he publishes not another word he will still be in the top 0.001% of genre authors in terms of professional success.

      I mean if he was being an ass to everyone about it then maybe we could call him “unprofessional” regardless of his level of professional success. But he’s not – and honestly I think he tries way too hard to engage with the fans of ASOIAF which does nothing more than rile them up more. When he tells people to keep checking his blog for updates about ADWD and then TWOW he’s really just baiting them to get irritated because they see him talking about football or whatever. If he never said anything about ASOIAF on not a blog they’d have no legs to stand on, but he’s not really politically/social media savvy in that way. He’s just a guy who likes football and fantasy/scifi. Who happens to also be a massive professional success.

      If you win the nobel prize people are still going to remember you, and think you did something great even if you just take your nobel winnings, buy a house, and do nothing to continue the project you got the Nobel for. You still contributed to science, and others will pick up the mantle.

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    57. I don’t feel AFFC/ADWD or books 4-5 are bad as such they just meander quite slowly versus the earlier pacing, they also world expanding. In other words the plot doesn’t really progress but if you want to know more about the broader world you will enjoy them. If you are comparing versus the show you will see why they decided to cut an awful lot out.

      I’d also say the first three books are pretty in line with the show but 4-5 differs quite a bit but generally hits the main plot points – the show brings forward some stuff a lot quicker for example.

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    58. QueenofThrones,

      Good advice. I don’t think I would ever be angry about these things. I know them to be separate, as GRRM himself said many times. Plus. The show always comes first to me 😉 haha

      mau,

      I don’t even think he will ever release book 6.

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    59. The Bastard,

      I think you’re right – I think it’s unlikely he’ll finish the series now, which is a real shame. I hope he has somewhere a synopsis of how he thought it would end originally which can be released at some point, even if it’s just on his blog. I know I’m being pessimistic.

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    60. The Bastard:
      QueenofThrones,
      Books 4 and 5 would have made for horrible television if they did a straight adaption. Too many new characters. Too many boring plot lines.

      The show did amazing with what they had.

      Agreed. I’m particularly glad that they cut the major new character (YG).

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    61. Lindyloub:
      The Bastard,

      I think you’re right – I think it’s unlikely he’ll finish the series now, which is a real shame. I hope he has somewhere a synopsis of how he thought it would end originally which can be released at some point, even if it’s just on his blog. I know I’m being pessimistic.

      Actually, we have the “original” synopsis already – http://io9.gizmodo.com/grrms-original-game-of-thrones-outline-was-very-very-d-1683950199

      Of course GRRM changed his mind… at some point while writing Game of Thrones. I tend to think he’s changed his mind for each book and the ending has evolved on a continual basis. So there may not be one true answer.

      We will see the end of the TV series roughly where GRRM intended the series to go right after ADWD was written (since that’s when he had his “tell all” meeting with the show runners). Given the choices the showrunners have made subsequently, we can already see hints of this. Whether this has any resemblance to what GRRM is currently writing may never be known.

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    62. ” My sweet summer child” just seems so condescending lol if he speaks like that to his publishers im sure they hate him. But the probably dont want to anger him so they suggestively ask “hey can the book be out this year?” he responds “summer child” they think god damn this man

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    63. Dee Stark,

      I would also advise you to read first three books if you want to enjoy the reading. The overall story is basically the same as in S1-S4. Don’t bother with books 4 and 5, considering that there is very little chance for GRRM to finish the story. For me, they hardly feel a part of the same series.

      I know the feeling you are talking about. Maybe my recent resentment of the books has something to do with that as well.

      On a side note, I really think I should start my yearly GoT rewatch soon (with my personal rule “one episode a day” of course).

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    64. I wouldn’t be angry if the books are never done because the TV show will give a proper ending. I have seen much more frustrating series end without real closure….

      1. Carnivals on HBO ended after 2 seasons with no real closure.

      2. Jericho on CBS ended with a comic book but still no true ending.

      3. Deadwood on HBO ended but there are rumors of a movie in the future.

      4. Lost on ABC supposedly had an ending… but if you rematch the show after knowing the ending, there are way too many unfinished plot lines.

      I could go on and on. One reason why I followed the ratings so closely for Got the first few seasons was because I have been severely burned as a viewer in the past by HBO.

      The fact that GoT is so successful, we just won’t get an ending… but a bigger budget ending. It is fantastic for us. Stinks for GRRM… but sadly it is his own fault.

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    65. Dee, everyone is telling you to read the first three and just ignore four and five. While I agree that as they’re written they’re not as good and do begin bloating the world with unnecessary character additions, I do believe you should read them though. However, I’d read them together in a suggested chronological chapter order such as boiled leather’s list. All of our favorite main pov characters do have chapters and advancement that you’ll miss out on if you skip four and five.

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    66. CorinneStark:
      Luka Nieto,

      He needed a strong editor that he trusted to get him focused. I’m just not sure it’ll ever happen now.

      Actually, Anne Groell tried to edit aDwD more strictly, but GRRM would have none of it.

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    67. Dee Stark,

      I’m a fan of all of the books. I read through the earlier books thrice and AFFC/ADWD twice. I’ve also listened to the Roy Dotrice audiobooks three or four times. It’s a lot of reading/listening time, but you pick up SO much more on the subsequent readings/listenings. It is very worth it. Make sure to read AFFC/ADWD in the combined order. http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-reading-order-for-a. It took a long time, but I also combined and reordered my AFFC/ADWD audiobooks in this manner.
      Of course, following that link, you’ll see which POV characters are still around. Perhaps look it up when you get there. 🙂

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    68. ghost of winterfell,

      Exactly. It’s a rich world and I’m so grateful that he’s written the books. I started watching the series first and I’m glad that an expanded world is just sitting on my bookshelf anytime I want to dive in again.

      I do hope he finishes his books so he can end it the way he wants to end it. But, I’m not counting it. I think I’ll just have to be content with having the show wrapped up.

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    69. dragonbringer,

      Yes, DragonBringer.

      When I thought there would be a conclusion to ASoIaF, even one with tying up threads, revealing secrets, and disclosing the underlying science to the magic, I was content to read the apparently aimless, meandering sections that did not advance the story because sometimes life is like that.

      One does not get purposeful, effective activity all the time. Sometimes stuff does not go as planned or is unplanned. The author was showing us that side of life.

      However, all the room for purposeless storytelling is used up, and it is time for ASoIaF to move forward to ending. Mayhaps the only ending we will get, besides the show condensations, battles and explosions, will be the endings we make up in our minds.

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    70. Dee Stark,

      I came too late with my piece of advice (you have already got many good ones), but I still want to give it: start reading the books, they will seem great if you like psychological analysis and to see the world through the eyes of unreliable narrators. You might not know the whole truth, but you will learn a lot about the characters and their culture(s). About AFFC and ADWD, just see how you feel towards them: you already know they are not as good as the others, but you may find interesting to see the different paths of the characters. If you’re not an impatient person, they can be a good means to kill the time until season 7 begins. Something like: “OK, let’s see today some more thoughts and feelings coming from Jon or Dany or Tyrion…” If you don’t like them at all (I don’t think it will happen), you can abandon them at any time. Because you already don’t expect GRRM to finish ASOIAF (I don’t either), I think you won’t feel like losing anything.

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    71. Gosh, the tendency to hyperbole is great here! First off, in a published writer’s humble opinion, GRRM is no Tolkien; the latter whose linguistic work itself is a marvel to behold, let alone the details, the story and the sublime characterization, and the philosophy. Second, the only thing that distinguishes a professional writer from an amateur one is discipline – nothing else.

      Having said that, GRRM’s writing is both tepid, and just about average. From lines such as, ‘the more she drank the more she shat’ to ‘pink mast’, to the overuse of sexual assaults and torture as plot enablers, to the frankly un-empathizable characters littering the landscape. So to even mention the Nobel Prize in literature with this writer, as someone did above, must be reconsidered. In fact, its an insult to the writers, who’ve won the esteemed prize. GRRM, unlike any of them, will go down in history at best, as a mediocre but popular author of late-stage fantasy, at worst, in obscurity as the guy who inspired the GOT TV Show.

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    72. flintstonewielder,

      Like I said, he needed to have an editor he trusted. He may not trust any editor, but that’s what he needs. Maybe I should qualify that and say the most important thing he needed was the ability to let go and maybe that’s just asking the impossible.

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    73. GRRM’s strength as a writer had to do with his world building and shocking scenes like the Red Wedding. And for as great as he is at world building, he is horrendous at closing out a story b

      Just like with LOST…. I think writers sometimes get way too much credit for being vague and mysterious. I often find it downright annoying. There has been multiple times in this series where 2 characters almost met or a characters almost found out about an important fact, only to have the conversation interrupted. Those tropes are just not fun to read.

      But he is certainly not even close to the same level as Tolkien.

      When you read Tolkien, you feel like every word has a purpose on that page. When you read GRRM, you feel like there are sometimes wasted chapters.

      Even if ASOIAF is never completed, he still wrote an amazing manuscript for the greatest television show in history. 🙂

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    74. CorinneStark:
      flintstonewielder,

      Like I said, he needed to have an editor he trusted. He may not trust any editor, but that’s what he needs. Maybe I should qualify that and say the most important thing he needed was the ability to let go and maybe that’s just asking the impossible.

      This.
      He seems incapable of letting go.
      Potentially doesn´t bode well for the editing process of tWoW.

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    75. QueenofThrones: Go ahead and read books 1-3 – they are really excellent and you will enjoy them.Don’t bother with books 4-5. They aren’t very good and the differences with the show will most likely annoy you.

      I have seen dedicated and happy non book reader fans become crazy book nuts after reading, angry about completely reasonable changes that the show runners made.

      Funny thing, it was the other way around for me … Because of S5, I only got annoyed more by these books.

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    76. Shy Lady Dragon,

      thank you so much 🙂 good advice!!! :):) nice to see you
      I may wait till after season 7 or 8 to read… since I have a few books to keep me distracted, as well as a few shows and a season 1-6 rewatch

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    77. Dee Stark,

      Would suggest, avoid the books – read Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire instead – not only is it the authoritative work on the history of the Roman Empire, but each sentence is deliciously and alternatively mischievous, delightful, and insightful.

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    78. umuckurlife,

      Combined form? I should try to read it in this form as well (I own both book 4 and 5) and maybe I will like it slightly more (for me, there are far more issues than just geographically split charactes in those two books).

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    79. Jade Joon: not only is it the authoritative work on the history of the Roman Empire, but each sentence is deliciously and alternatively mischievous, delightful, and insightful.

      I don’t know why, but reading this sentence made me think of Hedonismbot from Futurama. 😛

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    80. Dee Stark I think you should read AFFC and ADWD in the way those books were written. I think you will appreciate the show and D&D even more after that.

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    81. mau,

      Every time I re-read these two, I like them even less… Well, in the past three years, I didn’t read much because I’m so busy with my studying at university. Not to mention that because of westeros org and a certain GoT Wikia admin, I started to feel strong resentment towards the books.

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    82. Jade Joon: So to even mention the Nobel Prize in literature with this writer, as someone did above, must be reconsidered. In fact, its an insult to the writers, who’ve won the esteemed prize. GRRM, unlike any of them, will go down in history at best, as a mediocre but popular author of late-stage fantasy, at worst, in obscurity as the guy who inspired the GOT TV Show.

      If you’re talking about what I wrote, I said nothing about GRRM deserving Nobel in lit. I was making a comparison to a scientist winning a Nobel in their discipline and then going on to do nothing else with his life. People would still consider that person to be a professional success.

      Likewise, GRRM has written a book that tens of millions of people have read, and hundreds of thousands are obsessed with. In his field (genre fiction) regardless of whatever else he does, even if that is nothing, he is objectively speaking a professional success. My point being, it’s silly to say that he’s “unprofessional” for not finishing the books. He’s already a massive success story in his profession even if he writes not another word.

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    83. Lord Parramandas: Funny thing, it was the other way around for me … Because of S5, I only got annoyed more by these books.

      Same here. But I think it would (or at least could) be different for someone who started with this show.

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    84. Lord Parramandas,

      If you just look at the structure of ADWD it is a complete mess. Characters popping up with 2-3 chapters and then disappearing, Jaime suddenly having one filler chapter for no reason at all, climax of Cersei’s storyline moved to the end of the book, while the build-up was in previous book, tyrion’s storyline without climax, The Northern storyline without climax,…

      Mess. Just a complete mess.

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    85. QueenofThrones,

      In most of the cases, books 4 and 5 are a significant letdown compared to first three novels, and if I remember right, Dee really likes season 5, even compared to some other seasons.

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    86. mau,

      Yes, it is. Both of them. Way too many POV characters and Arya and Sansa who were with us since the beginning, were reduced to side characters, with Sansa not appearing in book 5 at all. Not to mention that most of their chapters could be told in one chapter alone.

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    87. QueenofThrones,

      Ah! Thanks for the clarification. While I agree with you on the success of his works, and by extension of his position now, in genre fiction, a writer is deemed professional and lives and dies by the efficacy of the work he/she produces. How that efficacy is measured, and therefore the professionalism of the writer, measured, is both subjective to the reader, as well as subject to some professional norms; such as meeting deadlines, and so on. There is, despite whatever we may think, an implicit social/contextual contract in place, which Martin finds himself not subject to – primarily because the work is so popular, and because Gaiman publicly framed the contract and the expectations thereof, firmly on GRRM’s side. Having said all that, his professionalism depends solely on whether the books are finished or not – if he comes out and says for example, that he is handing over the writing to someone else, then the goal posts shifts, and he will be called professional to the extent that previous expectations are themselves shifted. Then he may be lauded for the work he’s done, and for handing it off to someone else. In the near silence we’re treated to now, it is rightly unprofessional on his part, to not acknowledge the wait, or even to account for it – if nothing more, no matter what his peers, who also face writer’s block, and issues thereof, say about the responsibilities of an author. Artists are no longer subject to the aura of a genius, which Martin, regardless is very far from – the world has changed, and the primacy of an artist is nearing the end, only for the fallibility of artistic genius to take its place. So while we can and should appreciate the work of what he’s built, let us not excuse the writer from the responsibilities of being a writer with a vast audience, or raise him/her on a pedestal that requires constant burnishment.

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    88. Jon Snowed: snip

      Eh, there are a lot of problems with letting GRRM write the last episode with “ASOIAF’s ending.”

      1. GRRM writing episodes worked for the first three seasons, and even for 4×02, since the show and the books hadn’t yet wildly diverged. However, two seasons later, the show and the books are so different that they are pretty much separate entities. This presents a characterization problem: GRRM writing an episode would essentially be GRRM writing Game of Thrones fanfic. GRRM knows, for example, Book Tyrion inside out and could write for Book Tyrion in his sleep, but how could GRRM write an ending for Show Tyrion (assuming Tyrion lasts until the finale)? The same goes for numerous other lead characters. If GRRM tries to write an episode tying everything off for the book versions of the characters, it will seem as if he’s writing for a completely different show.

      2. In addition to the characterization issue, the show has diverged plotwise so much that getting back to the original ending is going to be impossible, except in the broadest possible strokes: Jon becomes king, marries Dany, Arya marries Gendry, Sansa marries the Hound, Tyrion dies heroically, and everyone else lives happily enough ever after, whatever. GRRM has referenced a few times D&D making changes over his objections, and this causing a “butterfly effect.” Multiply that effect every time D&D have made a plot change or omitted a character from the show, and it’s highly questionable that the ending will be the same ending as GRRM’s, except in the broadest of strokes.

      3. I think Werthead on Westeros.org said that GRRM told D&D in 2013 that he hadn’t even decided what he was going to do with certain characters. I think D&D know where the major characters will end up, but that only accounts for maybe a dozen out of hundreds of characters. GRRM may not have even decided the fates of Bronn-level characters. If so, there is no way that GRRM can write the ending he originally envisioned for Season 8, because he might not even know the finer points of that ending yet, beyond things like who sits the Iron Throne, who dies, who gets married, etc. So how could GRRM possibly write ASOIAF’s ending for GOT if he doesn’t even know the full scope of that ending yet beyond the broad strokes?

      4. I was also under the impression that when GRRM writes an episode, D&D basically plot out the episode and tell him what they want written, and he writes something that fits. So even if GRRM writes the last episode, it really wouldn’t be “GRRM’s ending” anyway. It would be D&D’s ending as told by GRRM. Not the same thing.

      Better to let D&D finish what they started, in my opinion.

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    89. ASOIF books have given me many many hours or enjoyment, I can’t complain. I wish more fans of the books would voice support for GRRM, honestly. He doesn’t use outlines, he writes as the inspiration comes to him and who are we to demand that he change his technique to something that is unnatural and un-enjoyable to him?

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    90. I feel you make some very valid points which I agree with in the main but I’d still prefer to have GRRM write the last episode. This way we are seeing it through his eyes, we get some dialogue, interaction as he imagines it, even if the wording differs he can set the tone at the very least. Also I’m not convinced on the charactisation differences for example didn’t GRRM write the Red Wedding episode which differed from the books but is like the 3rd highest rated episode of the show according to IMDB, so surely it can work.

      My fear of GRRM not being involved is some people will describe the final season as fan fic and GRRM will never write the final book so we’ll always be wondering to an extent.

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    91. Jon Snowed:

      I feel you make some very valid points which I agree with in the main but I’d still prefer to have GRRM write the last episode. This way we are seeing it through his eyes, we get some dialogue, interaction as he imagines it, even if the wording differs he can set the tone at the very least. Also I’m not convinced on the charactisation differences for example didn’t GRRM write the Red Wedding episode which differed from the books but is like the 3rd highest rated episode of the show according to IMDB, so surely it can work.

      My fear of GRRM not being involved is some people will describe the final season as fan fic and GRRM will never write the final book so we’ll always be wondering to an extent.

      GRRM wrote 3×07 (although apparently some scenes were written by D&D in that episode), which as I recall was poorly received despite having been written by GRRM. D&D wrote 3×09, the Red Wedding episode. The last episode GRRM wrote was 4×02, the Purple Wedding episode, and that was well-received; however, as I recall it also contained at least one scene written by D&D.

      I guess the “tone” is already so different that if GRRM tries to veer it back to the book side of things, it will seem like a jarring disconnect from the rest of Season 8. It worked in earlier seasons because the show was still a roughly faithful adaptation in earlier seasons, whereas now, the writers have been taking bits and pieces from the books as it suits them, adhering to a very rough plot outline (“Dany leaves Meereen and invades Westeros,” e.g.), and papering over the rest with their own material. Even if GRRM writing episodes worked for previous seasons, the show as it currently exists is very different.

      As for the “fanfic” accusation, book purists have been calling the show fanfic for quite some time, and even if GRRM pens every word of the last episode, they’ll still hold on to the belief that the ending of A Dream of Spring will be infinitely superior to and vastly different from the ending of Game of Thrones. I don’t think appeasing book purists will factor into D&D’s decision one way or another–it never has in the past–but I don’t think it should, either. Whether or not D&D choose to ask GRRM to write the last episode–and that’s definitely their call, not his–their decision won’t be based on the worry that their ending will be seen as illegitimate or fanfic unless GRRM writes it.

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    92. M,

      their decision won’t be based on the worry that their ending will be seen as illegitimate or fanfic unless GRRM writes it.

      I agree. There have been so many delays and the last two books were (for me) so unsatisfying, that I don’t know which will be considered fanfic at this point, the show or the novels. If GRRM publishes Winds in 2017, we’re still looking at a six year wait for Dream. At that point, GRRM will have lost most of the show watchers, and many book readers will have lost interest as well. You can see it in his book-centered forums, which are already experiencing slowed traffic. There’s a limit to how long readers can stay engaged. The show helped GRRM with keeping his audience active, but once it’s done, and people are faced with years of waiting for HIS version of endgame? I don’t know.

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    93. lucy,

      The last 16 years have shown that the type of complacency you wish for has not made Mr. Martin write faster or better. It has only resulted in more Wild Cards.

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    94. QueenofThrones,

      CorinneStark,

      Jade Joon,

      Nobody can deny that GRRM is an incredibly successful (genre) writer, especially if you measure it by copies sold, number of fans, the income he has been able to generate from his creation. Good on him.

      However, I agree with Jade Joon that discipline distinguishes a professional writer from the amateur. GRRM probably was a disciplined, professional writer when he had to write to keep the wolf from the door. He doesn’t need to do it anymore, and it shows. Now he can indulge in his hobby of world-building and creating (and scrapping and rewriting) ever more complex storylines and subplots, ever more layered text with echoes here and there, maybe all kinds of cool symbolism… He doesn’t need to focus on delivering a finished product. He doesn’t need to care about strict editors or impatient publishers. It’s disappointing to his fans but absolutely his right, he’s not our bitch. This is what I mean when I say he no longer is a professional writer.

      I also agree that he doesn’t seem able to let go, he apparently keeps polishing, tinkering, changing, rewriting, polishing. It’s his right, it is his story, his creation. Maybe he will one day deliver a masterpiece… But in the light of the mess that was AFFC/ADWD and the increasing time he’s taking, scepticism on the part of some readers and even fans is well-justified.

      GRRM has talked about his writing process in interviews. He doesn’t make outlines(* but describes it as “gardening” (makes it up as he goes along) with a vague general idea. (Which seems subject to change when he gets new ideas.) As a keen gardener myself, I can’t help but think that some discipline and deciveness is necessary. You need to weed and prune, you can’t keep planting more and more plants, nice in themselves, because the overall effect in the garden becomes confused and messy.

      Also, he’s said when he knows the ending, he loses interest and wants to move along to new projects. The old gods and new alone know if GRRM knows how ASOIAF will end, except maybe in the broadest strokes, but it seems to me he’s already lost interest in ASOIAF and moved on to other projects. He’s written about Targaryen civil wars, the whole Dunk & Egg project (published 3 novellas of the projected 12…), the World book project (a history of Westeros supposedly written by (a Lannister-friendly) maester)…

      I’ve enjoyed the ASOIAF books tremendously, even the mess that is AFFC/ADWD (rereading in the boiled leather chronological order helps a lot!). Dunk & Egg stories are cute and nice and full of ASOIAF backstory/world-building. I’m currently reading the World book, which I got for Christmas, and I like it, there’s tons of “history” (world-building) and while some of the artwork is a bit too “photoshopped” for my taste (all the beautiful ladies look like 21st century supermodels with their cheekbones and pouty lips, lol!), some of it is really evocative and haunting. All that said, what I really want is a conclusion to the main story, ASOIAF. I’m kind of resigned to the fact that I may never get it. I’m glad that the suberb HBO show will give me their version of it. Aah, closure…

      *) The “original outline” from ~20 yrs ago that’s doing the rounds on the interwebs was something his publisher insisted upon so he made up some stuff. It’s clear it has very little to do as the series now stands.

      ooops, I seem to have gone off on one… sorry. 😉

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    95. Time was you couldn’t swing a dead cat in one of these threads without hitting a Martin apologist. Could someone please please please tell us that George is not our bitch?

      As you love me.

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    96. I think there’s exactly zero chance of either of the following happening:

      1) Book 6 is released prior to HBO televising season 8; and
      2) The 7th and final book ever being released.

      I think book 6 will be late 2018, and it will be the last one, leaving the story unfinished.

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    97. Lord Parramandas,

      correct

      so for me, what Queen was saying wouldn’t apply, but her point is completely valid. I make sure to go into these novels with an open mind, and a separation between the two pieces of art.

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    98. Cumsprite,

      Haha! I just did! “GRRM is not our bitch”. Because he no longer is a professional writer. He’s a rich semi-retiree indulging in one of his favourite hobbies.

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    99. talvikorppi:
      Cumsprite,

      Haha! I just did! “GRRM is not our bitch”. Because he no longer is a professional writer. He’s a rich semi-retiree indulging in one of his favourite hobbies.

      You weren’t being a condescending, sniveling little weenie so it doesn’t count. It HAS to come from the heart.

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    100. Cumsprite,

      Book purists at that other place are condescending but hardly snivelling. More like imperious over us plebs who might – gasp – like the show.

      My feeling that GRRM is no longer a professional writer COMES from the heart. Are you ignoring, discounting, belittleing my heartfelt feelings? You big meany you! I’ll now go and write a thinkpiece about how I was harrassed by someone who might’ve disagreed with me on the Internet and how wrong it is.

      /sarcasm (in case some of the younger, humourless happen to be reading)

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    101. Anybody know of a discussion site that is not rude either to people who prefer the books OR people who prefer the show? I know enough about Westeros.org to avoid it; but this group gets depressing as well, when so many people are so keen to jump on any excuse to bash GRRM – even to the extreme of wishing that he would die.

      My thanks to those of you like Queen of Thrones who maintain voices of reason rather than free-floating hostility.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Firannion:
      Anybody know of a discussion site that is not rude either to people who prefer the books OR people who prefer the show? I know enough about Westeros.org to avoid it; but this group gets depressing as well, when so many people are so keen to jump on any excuse to bash GRRM – even to the extreme of wishing that he would die.

      My thanks to those of you like Queen of Thrones who maintain voices of reason rather than free-floating hostility.

      Please link to the posts in here that wish Martin would die. I missed those as well. They sound very exciting!

        Quote  Reply

    103. mau:
      The fact that fans created so many “combined forms” of AFFC and ADWD speaks enough of these books.

      Why no one ever created combined reading order for AGOT, ACOK or ASOS?

      Obviously because AGOT, ACOK and ASOS are in chronological order, while AFFC and ADWD run mostly in parallel.

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    104. Very few people will care about the book ending once the show spoils it. It is hard to be motivated to read a book when you already know the basic ending.

      Westeros Forum is a crazy place. Based on their reaction to the TV show, you would honestly think it was one of the worst shows on television. It is rather frightening to see how a mob mentality can completely destroy any resemblance of reality.

        Quote  Reply

    105. I think the book’s ending will differ quite a lot from that of the show because I think George only told D&D the rough ending. He can’t have given them precise descriptions of all of the major character’s fates since I think he doesn’t even know these fates himself.
      If George really stops writing after Winds and never finishes the 7th book, to me, the true ending will then be the one from Winds. Actually not only to me. It will be the canon ending. At that point, the show is merely fanfiction.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Firannion,

      I know the feeling ? I came here from the westeros.org because of the hate towards the show. Now I hardly ever come on here because of the hate towards GRRM and the books. A lot of people have obviously had issues with book purists in the past but now they’re doing exactly the same only they’ve become “show purists”
      Shame very few people seem to be able to enjoy both the books and the show…

        Quote  Reply

    107. youngaegonvii:
      If George really stops writing after Winds and never finishes the 7th book, to me, the true ending will then be the one from Winds.

      I don’t understand this. Winds won’t be the ending of the series. If it ends like AFFC/ADWD, it will end will cliffhangers for the majority of the storylines and leave loose ends for every plot thread.

      youngaegonvii:
      .At that point, the show is merely fanfiction.

      Adaptation, not fan fiction.

        Quote  Reply

    108. I think grrm finished the books 2 years ago nd is waiting for the show to end to release them with a completely diff story, hopefully in which darkstar is the prince that was promised

        Quote  Reply

    109. Crabz,

      Have you heard the expression, “If you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras.” Usually, the likely scenario is the correct one, the likely scenario here being that GRRM is writing Winds really slowly.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Steve:
      I think there’s exactly zero chance of either of the following happening:

      1) Book 6 is released prior to HBO televising season 8; and
      2) The 7th and final book ever being released.

      I think book 6 will be late 2018, and it will be the last one, leaving the story unfinished.

      We know that Season 8 will be on roughly the same production schedule as Season 7 (filming starting in September), although it may finish a bit sooner given that there are only six episodes as opposed to seven.

      We also expect that Season 7 will start airing in June 2017, so it’s reasonable to assume that Season 8 will start airing in June 2018. If Season 8 has six episodes, the finale will air no later than August 31, 2018.

      It takes about three months between GRRM delivering the final manuscript and the book being out in bookstores, at the minimum.

      Therefore, by my calculation, GRRM has until May 31st, 2018 to finish TWOW if he wants to get it out before Season 8 airs in its entirety. If he wants TWOW out before Season 8 starts airing, he probably has until three months prior to June 17th (as an estimate), or March 17th, 2018. That gives him…a little more than a year to finish TWOW.

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    111. Cumsprite: Please link to the posts in here that wish Martin would die. I missed those as well. They sound very exciting!

      : mau
      January 12, 2017 at 8:39 am
      … I think that the best thing that could happen to the books would be GRRM’s death…

        Quote  Reply

    112. Crabz:
      I think grrm finished the books 2 years ago nd is waiting for the show to end to release them with a completely diff story, hopefully in which darkstar is the prince that was promised

      Anyone else think he has not only finished TWOW and ADOS but also an eight book with a secret title, as the story obviously got too big to fit into two volumes?

      He is probably just waiting for the TV-show to end before releasing them.

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    113. I can’t believe the negativity in this thread. And I was so happy when I read Martin’s comment. The man has worked and he’s further along then the last time he posted anything! I’m just glad I’m going to have the book to look forward to this year. You lot just bring me down. I’m just going to go my happy place.

      Cumsprite,

      You need to stop skimming the thread and actually read the damn comments, you know?! Granted, I doubt the person who said that the “best thing that can happen to the books is Martin’s death” actually cares about the books enough to want “the best” for them but still.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Firannion,

      I think WotW is quite friendly and accommodating to reasonable book fans. I’m a big book fan and I feel welcome here. OK, I also like the show and see why book/show necessarily needs to be different. Different medium, different choices – I was amazed at how closely S1-S3 followed the books. I don’t mind the later divergence much (except Jaime stuff). It’s still a compelling story.

      There’s a 1954 book, which rapidly became a runaway bestseller in my country. There’s the 1955 film based on that book, the most successful film ever made in my country by the sheer numbers of cinema viewers, even 20 years later. Then on TV. It’s so iconic that it’s shown on TV every year on our Independence Day. The book and film start the same, they diverge but both hit the important plot points. The ending is broadly the same (who survives).

      Reading the book gives you much more “character development” and “backstory” but the 1955 film is brilliant on its own right. Hey, they didn’t have CGI back in the 1950s so they really had to put dynamite here and there and blow things up to get the effects.

      Yeah, the effects were amazing at the time. They still are when you know the explosions were real, not health&safety-approved CGI. But why we love that old film is the characters and how the actors portrayed them. Different ordinary men from different parts of our country. The book and the film are sympathetic towards the “ordinary men”, not the higher officers or the leadership. The book and the film is so critical of leadership that some critics at the time saw the book/film as subversive and unpatriotic.

      The irony is that now the book/film has been made a national treasure, and bambot nationalist invoke it… while the message of the book and the film goes flying over their heads.

      The 1955 film is great. The definite, the iconic one, even after two remakes. There’s a remake being made right now, and it’ll be sort of popular in my country, maybe gain some audience on the festival circuit, aiming for big UK and US release. I wish it all the best. But it will never replace the 1955 film in its own country.

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    115. The Bastard: Very few people will care about the book ending once the show spoils it. It is hard to be motivated to read a book when you already know the basic ending.

      I think that you are wrong about that. Not everyone reads the same way that you do, with the primary motivation being to find out how a book ends. If it were true, no one would ever reread a book that they’ve read before. Many, many people enjoy the journey as much as, or even more than, the destination. I read favorite books over and over again, and get new things out of them each time.

      I find GRRM’s writing, like J. K. Rowling’s, particularly strong in this regard: Rereads are extremely rewarding, because the books are salted with so many meaningful little clues and foreshadowings that one misses the first time through. Finding out the broad strokes of how ASoIaF will end from the TV series will in no way detract from my desire to discover all the little details of how GRRM gets there.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Firannion,

      You are completely taking what I said out of context.

      I said in that post that GRRM is like George Lucas of this saga and that it is his time to step aside. So I said, that it may be controversial, but the best thing that could happen to the books would be his death or if he decides to abandon the series and let someone else write it.

      I never said that I wish that he would die. The point is that I believe that the only solution for this story to survive and have satisfying ending is another writer.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Firannion,

      True, I do enjoy rereading stories, but my first read is always the best. I will still read the books even though the show is spoiling them, but I won’t enjoy them as much as i would have if the books had come out first.

        Quote  Reply

    118. TormundsWoman:
      I can’t believe the negativity in this thread.And I was so happy when I read Martin’s comment. The man has worked and he’s further along then the last time he posted anything! I’m just glad I’m going to have the book to look forward to this year. You lot just bring me down. I’m just going to go my happy place.

      Cumsprite,

      You need to stop skimming the thread and actually read the damn comments, you know?! Granted, I doubt the person who said that the “best thing that can happen to the books is Martin’s death” actually cares about the books enough to want “the best” for them but still.

      Of course I didn’t read the thread. That’s why I was asking for help, boysenberry. And, for your sake, I hope the book does come out this year (it won’t). Because I will never let you hear the end of it.

      Hey, there’s not enough Wild Cards talk at this site. We all love Wild Cards. When the Wild Cards show gets off the ground, WOTW should have a Wild Cards branch! And I should be in charge. Because I love Wild Cards.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Cumsprite,

      Plainly, many of you need to read more Wild Cards. Get right on that, please! A new year is a great time for a new addiction! (And you can get signed copies from the Jean Cocteau bookshop).

        Quote  Reply

    120. Firannion,

      I read favorite books over and over again, and get new things out of them each time.

      Ditto. Whereas rewatching tv/movie I don’t often get that enjoyment. To each their own.

        Quote  Reply

    121. flintstonewielder:
      Cumsprite,

      Plainly, many of you need to read more Wild Cards. Get right on that, please! A new year is a great time for a new addiction! (And you can get signed copies from the Jean Cocteau bookshop).

      Everyone should focus their entertainment dollars on Martin’s repackaged catalogue. When the squatters in residence at his bowling alley inevitably burn the place down, he’s going to need it for the lawsuits.

        Quote  Reply

    122. mau:
      Firannion,

      You are completely taking what I said out of context.

      I said in that post that GRRM is like George Lucas of this saga and that it is his time to step aside. So I said, that it may be controversial, but the best thing that could happen to the books would be his death or if he decides to abandon the series and let someone else write it.

      I never said that I wish that he would die. The point is that I believe that the only solution for this story to survive and have satisfying ending is another writer.

      Yeah, but you must acknowledge that what you wrote seemed like a death wish to the interwebby snowflakes. I don’t believe it but many enough will. Enjoy.

      You will be vilified on the interwebs by many people, some of them ASOIAF deep fans. You will probably be called a misogynist by precious snowflakes who don’t really understand what misogyny is. Who really don’t understand what internet is. I’ve been around since the mid-1980s (skreeeech- skreeee-boing-scree, schreee, bing, schreech, ping, oh, I’ve got a 264 megabaud connection! (That’d be something like the usual 0.05 broadband in the UK, trying to make it faster and better) and the 1990s were a good education on attending BBC game shows.

      “preciousness”, the noughties and teens are just silly.

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    123. Ibbison,

      “Rose to fame on his short stories and TV episodes”? The first 3 books of ASOIAF were on the best seller list. Two of which happened in the 90s. Long before any TV or movie people stared sniffing around. He likely made more money (up to that time) on those 3 books than any short story or TV episode he wrote in the previous 25 years of his career. He had a niche audience that followed him and helped propel ASOIAF onto the best seller list. And given the closeness of the time period this happened to the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter films, it was inevitable that Hollywood started to sniff around at him and his books.

      So I’m sorry but how does one possibly come to the conclusion then that George RR Martin “rose to fame” based on short stories he wrote in the early 70s and TV episodes for the failed Twilight Zone reboot and failed Beauty and the Beast?

      talvikorppi,

      So we use the term “snowflakes” here now? You just come from freerepublic there pal?

        Quote  Reply

    124. If/when George publishes TWOW I hope he calls it a day and admits he’s not going to be able to finish the series. The simple fact of the matter is that he doesn’t possess the necessary skills required to complete a series of this scale. I for one am incredibly grateful to George for creating the world, but it’s like when you see a movie and it has different people writing the script and story; George wrote the story, D&D wrote the script. The ASOIAF books are no more than the novelisation of GoT.

      I’m sure George would love to continue writing after he finishes TWOW, so perhaps he could write some more Dunk and Egg novellas, or other shorter stories. That way he can get these stories out to fans, and they can enjoy them, but he’s not stringing them along with a series that will not ever be finished. Indeed I would definitely read these books if they sounded good.

        Quote  Reply

    125. talvikorppi,

      GRRM has talked about his writing process in interviews. He doesn’t make outlines(* but describes it as “gardening” (makes it up as he goes along) with a vague general idea. (Which seems subject to change when he gets new ideas.) As a keen gardener myself, I can’t help but think that some discipline and deciveness is necessary.

      THIS. I’m not a gardener, but my husband is, and you can’t “garden,” the way GRRM writes, without any sense of architecture. I mean…you gotta make sure the soil is right, the shade is right, that plants are placed so they don’t destroy or suffocate one another, etc., on top of the looks of the thing, when everything blossoms, constant pruning, caring, etc., etc. It’s the polar opposite of whatever GRRM is talking about.

      I wish he were a gardener. If he had been, he would know what pruning (editing) is.

      Prune, GRRM, prune. Please.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Crabz:
      I think grrm finished the books 2 years ago nd is waiting for the show to end to release them with a completely diff story

      I have long wondered if the seventh and even the eighth volume were finished and being held back for profit or ego reasons. Certainly if the author applied himself, the SoIaF could be completed by now.

      Imagine the smug amusement possibly being felt while viewing the hysteria generated by fans eager to read the conclusion of TSoIaF.

        Quote  Reply

    127. orange: he first 3 books of ASOIAF were on the best seller list. Two of which happened in the 90s.

      The books did not start making the best-seller list until Crows, although Thrones hit the list after the show came out. Dragons did, too. In both cases, it was very much the “sequel to popular stories” effect: a ton of people ran out and bought them at once.

      Lindyloub: I hope he has somewhere a synopsis of how he thought it would end originally which can be released at some point, even if it’s just on his blog.

      GRRM has given that to the showrunners. There will be trivial differences*, no doubt, simply because doing the same thing on page and on screen requires different narrative devices and even somewhat different plotting.

      youngaegonvii: If George really stops writing after Winds and never finishes the 7th book, to me, the true ending will then be the one from Winds. Actually not only to me. It will be the canon ending. At that point, the show is merely fanfiction

      As GRRM has repeatedly emphasized, adaptation and fan-fiction are fundamentally different things. The show and the books are telling the same stories. Yes, there are trivial differences: but this is a story, not a documentary. If the TV show just regurgitated the details, then it would utterly fail to communicate the story: books are horrible scripts, after all. Again: shark and T. rex!

      But here is the other thing: if GRRM stops at Winter, then the overarching story will have no ending. Just like every other modern story, the ending will be that point where the main characters arcs conclude on some emphatic point or set of points to which they have been building for all the prior stories.

      maria: I wish he were a gardener. If he had been, he would know what pruning (editing) is.

      George takes a plant’s point of view where pruning is concerned! 😀

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    128. Crannogman Matt,

      As one who hasn’t read the books yet, people are not hating on the books (yes some people fully are and few expressed the decline in quality just like some people who love both have expressed they think there’s a decline in quality of the show ) but I think the atmosphere here is that most people are just over the books and have given up on GRRM and the book story. Sorry you can’t compare this place to the other.Website. Not the same At all

        Quote  Reply

    129. To all the haters,
      When you’ve written a series of novels with the depth and complexity of ASOIF – had them published, and then transformed into a movie series – please feel free to resume your incessant judgement on what’s an acceptable length of time to finish a book.

      Thanks,
      The rest of us.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Firannion:
      I think that you are wrong about that. Not everyone reads the same way that you do, with the primary motivation being to find out how a book ends. If it were true, no one would ever reread a book that they’ve read before.

      I was reading The Bastard’s comment myself and it made me look at the best selling books of all times list out of curiosity . It turns out some books have been adapted to screen at least once, and some in spectacular way (see Gone with the Wind or LotR – randomly chosen). I would be shocked to find out that people stopped buying these books because the ending is known. I believe it is one of the strangest argument I have seen when the question of “interest in the books” is brought up, but I have seen it many times in this fandom. Probably because of the unique situation in which Martin’s work finds itself.

      Cumsprite,

      I would hope you can be humble and acknowledge a win for my side when the book is out this year! But I don’t think you have it in you to gracefully accept that for once my instincts about Martin were right.

      EDIT: I can’t post emoji img. My fave emoji!!!! This is a tragedy :'(

        Quote  Reply

    131. ThisGirlHasNoName: please feel free to resume your incessant judgement on what’s an acceptable length of time to finish a book.

      Having served on many tenure committees, I have no problem judging what an acceptable amount of time is to complete a project of any sort!

        Quote  Reply

    132. flintstonewielder,

      Wanna bet I can name more Wild Craps anthology names than you can?! I totally am reading that NaB. I know what the man says!

      I think he’s positive to even attempt an update like that. He’s not constipated and he finally said about Winds “I think it’s coming out this year” (with the risk of being ridiculed later on by half the digital entertainment media or worse such posters as Mr. Sprite for example if God forbid he’s not publishing it in 2017 – which I will NOT EVEN CONSIDER, shut up, I’m not even listening to you!). He said that about Winds before but it was an after the fact confession. So I don’t even count that.

      He’s got it this time. You’ll see. I am all rooting for the man to publish Winds, not only for the fans but also for his peace and accomplishment.

        Quote  Reply

    133. It took me a bit to phrase my current thoughts on this, but:

      At this point, I think that the best course of action would be to wait until the show ends.

      Think about it: if Martin releases TWOW now, what will it bring? Only more discontent and internal wars within the fandom. Whereas if he does that after the show ends? Tempers will have cooled off somewhat.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Dee Stark,

      I would absolutely recommend reading books 1-3, which are excellent. I’d be a lot more hesitant about recommending 4 and 5, although I did enjoy them much more on a re-read.

        Quote  Reply

    135. I very much want GRRM to finish the series in the way he wants and in as many books as he needs – but I’m not sure I’ll be around to find out the books’ ending even if he manages that!

      That’s why I wish he had stuck to his plan, once the narrative had expanded beyond three volumes, of leaving a five-year gap in the narrative after A Storm of Swords and taking up the story after that gap. If he had done that, the book series would probably either have been completed already, or we’d be eagerly awaiting a sixth and final volume.

      But though I think he made an unfortunate choice, he had reasons for doing so, and I remain immensely grateful to him for the richness of the world and the characters he created and the themes he addresses within it.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Gravemaster,

      I personally don’t think so, I know his a fan of GOT and he auditioned I think for Robb.
      1 think though it’s likely they know him because him and Emilia aka Dany and Sam have known each other for years and are quite close friends, they also made a movie together that came out last year “Me Before You” that ended up being quite popular so I imagine they probably know each other through Emilia.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Dee Stark,

      I agree giving up on GRRM and the books isn’t the same as hating on them but like you say there are a minority of people who do full on hate and shoot down absolutely anything to do with the books. The issue I have is that I know every time I look at the comments it will be that same minority complaining the loudest.
      Of course they have the right to do that but I find it a shame as it has pushed me away from this site as it did the other one. So the two are comparable IMHO only the minority here is the majority there…

        Quote  Reply

    138. I dont think it matters so much how long GRRM takes to release TWOW, those that are looking for closure or an end to the books will get it in Season 8. I think GRRM can just take his time on books and finish in his own time. These are difficult books to write. I doubt he will ever finish ADOS, but his story will at least have an end. Perhaps he will feel less pressure on him after the show has finished. I will definitely read TWOW when it comes out.

      I see a lot of dislike for AFFC and ADWD, I can understand why some people feel resentment towards those books because they have waited so long for them. I didn’t have to wait so long, I read them after both were published.

      AFFC wasn’t one of my favorite books of his, it was still alright. But I actually really enjoyed ADWD, it is my second favorite book of the series. I like the fact that ADWD really shows how Dany and Jon learns to become rulers. You can really understand and see their struggles. I think that is something that the show should have shown us more of. The Northern storyline within ADWD is really very good in my opinion.

      My least favorite book of the series have always been ACOK, and season 2 has also always been least favorite season of the show.

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    139. Dee Stark,

      I think where TV is going (re: binge watching netflix without commercials), I may enjoy rewatch more because that flow doesn’t always promote small details on first watch (IMO).

      One thing that I don’t like (which GoT didn’t always do), is the “previously on” recap. I get it makes sense for shows that are week to week affairs but it’s almost information overload for me. I prefer more subtlety. Plus it adds to the runtime, which bothers for some irrational reason.

      Movies today, I just don’t know. As a child of the 90’s I miss the complexity (my bias) of those films in terms of storytelling. (Memento, The Matrix, Snatch, The Usual Suspects, Se7en).

      P.S. READ LotR! Like NOW!

        Quote  Reply

    140. It is just a little bit horrifying to me to read some of these comments. GRRM has to write faster, he has to write better, not be so complacent etc. The man is entitled to write how he writes and take however long he needs. I understand disappointment, I feel that too, but GRRM isn’t our servant to be chastised about how he went about his task all wrong.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Tycho Nestoris,

      The target audience expects recaps. They do it in the presentations they make, they get it in the presentations that they witness multiple times a month, and they need it because each and every one of those is competing for space in their minds.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Crannogman Matt,
      I would have to disagree that being exasperated by the wait for the books is “hating” them. I’m not much younger than GRRM (as I’ve said before) and while until relatively recently I’d have said I was in reasonable fettle (for my age) I’ve had a couple of health issues recently and while I don’t feel I’m going to keel over right this minute there is a niggle about whether I’ll be around to finish reading the books if they don’t come out fairly shortly. I can see what are (in my opinion) good (and bad) points to both the books and the show. I wouldn’t have looked at the books but for the show. I think (I’ve said this before somewhere I’m sure) that ASOS was a very exciting and quick moving (for such a heavy volume) read and that people (well some people) were probably hoping for something that moved as quickly in the next volumes and didn’t get that. So for myself I would say that my feelings about the books the show are a tie though I am disappointed about the length of time the book story is taking to finish. I don’t have problems with people preferring the books but I DO have problems with book purists belittling fans of the show (and some of them do – I am not accusing you of doing so). I could go into this in more detail but my words would read more like an extended essay that a post on a GoT fansite.

      In an earlier post on this thread I said ‘I’m alluded’ and should of course have said ‘I’m alluding’

        Quote  Reply

    143. Yaga,

      The fandom is such a minor part of the audience for either medium that discontent among the fans will not matter much. After all, a lot of the fans will hate the book because their pet wild conjectures do not occur. A lot of fans hated Swords, as many fans convinced themselves that Robb was the actual hero of the series: but they were replaced by new fans, and Crows’ sales were unaffected. We saw the same thing with the Harry Potter series: a lot of fan groups pretty much disappeared after the 5th and 6th books, but the audience continued to increase.

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    144. Dame of Mercia,

      You have summarized both my thoughts and feelings almost perfectly! GRRM has long-since made me think of the brilliant-but-unfocused grad student who is still working on his/her thesis 5 years after it should have been completed!

        Quote  Reply

    145. Firannion: : mau
      January 12, 2017 at 8:39 am
      … I think that the best thing that could happen to the books would be GRRM’s death…

      Not nearly the same thing as wishing he would die. Mau is making an observation, and an observation made by many people who wish Martin a long and happy life. You are putting words into someone’s mouth.

      Perhaps you were thinking of another post?

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    146. TormundsWoman:
      flintstonewielder,

      Wanna bet I can name more Wild Craps anthology names than you can?! I totally am reading that NaB. I know what the man says!

      I think he’s positive to even attempt an update like that. He’s not constipated and he finally said about Winds “I think it’s coming out this year” (with the risk of being ridiculed later on by half the digital entertainment media or worse such posters as Mr. Sprite for example if God forbid he’s not publishing it in 2017 – which I will NOT EVEN CONSIDER, shut up, I’m not even listening to you!). He said that about Winds before but it was an after the fact confession. So I don’t even count that.

      He’s got it this time. You’ll see. I am all rooting for the man to publish Winds, not only for the fans but also for his peace and accomplishment.

      Ha, ha. You never learn. Even after losing the bet with me.
      Your Boromir avatar is being prepared!

        Quote  Reply

    147. Morgoth: Ha, ha. You never learn. Even after losing the bet with me.
      Your Boromir avatar is being prepared!

      I am not sure I can wait 12 months to slap the poop-face Boromir av on TW.

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    148. On a serious note, this means that maybe it will really be published in 2018, and that’s still way sooner than i expected (no sarcasm whatsoever)

      I doubt that there’s even one man in the whole fandom that believes Martin will ever write the last book(s) but that’s another, sad story

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    149. Tycho Nestoris: Damn these bitter truths!!!

      Well, you could be like all of the hip-kids and make up your own “facts”! 😀 For example, did you know that I’ve invented a dragon that can fly to Jupiter? Wait…..

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    150. Rygritte,

      I know I’m late to this conversation, but that’s exactly what happened to me!! And I feel the same way! I love to read, but got completely lost in some of the chapters, and watching the show and reading at same time also wasn’t the best idea…. I’ve forgotten a lot as well. Feel it’s best. I have no expectations now for a new book! Justwanna see the show at this point! thank goodness!

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    151. AlexG

      Gosh I love The Usual Suspects! There is no greater feeling in film than a visually executed reveal. The 90s were ripe with em.

      P.S. I forget Heat! My all time favorite movie ever. It’s close to a perfect film and I will fight anyone who disagrees! Jk ima pacifist like Smokey.

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    152. This clown is going to die before any of this books finish….sit your arse down and finish already!!!!!!

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    153. Well I think that at this point, getting hit by lighting is a more distinct possibility than this…

      I guess I’ll continue reading the book series, whenever, if ever he puts out any more novels…but hey…the amazing TV show is there…so I’m more than alright with that arrangement.

      I’m getting to a point in my age and life…where whipping myself into a frenzy over something like this is truly irrelevant…LOL…

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