George R.R. Martin divulges details about ‘Game of Thrones’ prequel: Starks, Casterly Rock, new title possibilities, and more!

Caption

We didn’t get much of Casterly Rock in ‘Game of Thrones,’ but will the prequel series change that?

More and more information about the Game of Thrones prequel series, tentatively titled Blood Moon (although more on that title in a bit!), is starting to find its way to the internet and to us, the fans still hungry for more Westeros content. This time, no less than the creator of the fantastic world itself, George R.R. Martin, is letting a few new details slip in a new interview!

EW recently spoke with GRRM about the prequel, which is helmed by showrunner Jane Goldman and officially began filming in May (and has seen more and more activity in the last month or so). Martin dropped several tantalizing hints and even suggested a possible new title for the series! Here are the important facts from the interview:

1. Westeros is divided. “We talk about the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros; there were Seven Kingdoms at the time of Aegon’s Conquest,” Martin said. “But if you go back further then there are nine kingdoms, and 12 kingdoms, and eventually you get back to where there are a hundred kingdoms — petty kingdoms — and that’s the era we’re talking about here.”

2. Rejoice, Stark stans! Martin confirms the fan-favorite family is around. “The Starks will definitely be there,” he said. And while much has been made about the fact the prequel predates dragons, that doesn’t mean there won’t be other creatures like mammoths and direwolves.

3. No Lannisters…or are there? The prequel predates the rise of the Lannister family, Martin says. But there is another family currently residing in the future Lannister homestead. “The Lannisters aren’t there yet, but Casterly Rock is certainly there … It’s actually occupied by the Casterlys — for whom it’s still named after in the time of Game of Thrones.” Will the tale of how Lann the Clever swindled the Rock away from the Casterlys be told in the prequel?

4. Like GoT, it’s a true ensemble. HBO’s cast breakdown appeared to suggest the show might be led by a trio of female leads (Naomi Watts, Naomi Ackie, and Denise Gough). Asked about this, Martin said the prequel — like Game of Thrones — is more accurately described as an ensemble story. “As you know for Game of Thrones, we never even nominated anybody for lead actress or lead actor [during awards season] until recently; it was always for supporting [categories] because the show is such an ensemble. I think that will be true for this show too. We don’t have leads so much as a large ensemble cast.”

5. Blood Moon, The Long Night, or something different? The prequel is still officially untitled, Martin emphasized, despite the recently-spied production schedule that has Blood Moon at the top. In the past, the author has suggested the title The Long Night, which remains Martin’s preferred title, although there is another similar possibility being considered. “I heard a suggestion that it could be called The Longest Night, which is a variant I wouldn’t mind,” he said. “That would be pretty good.”

More information is available in the full article, but what do you think of these new details? Is this anything that surprises you, or were you expecting some of this? Does this make you more interested in the prequel? Let us know in the comments!

115 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. … and GIANTS. There are legends of other creatures that could be true in their world, such as mermaids. 🙂

      “…Casterly Rock is certainly there.”
      As mentioned in other threads, this is a point of note for those thinking ‘stone ages’ or something because of the amount of time in the past. Many of the castles and strongholds were built or in the process during this period, the “Age of Heroes” in which the Long Night occurred.

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    2. There are limitless possibilities for this show. It could be really good and I’m starting to get excited about it.

      Several years ago when HBO announced their plans for future I didn’t care about it. GoT was the only thing that mattered. But now I want more stories in Westeros. I never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave,….

      New characters, new beginning.

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    3. you get back to where there are a hundred kingdoms — petty kingdoms — and that’s the era we’re talking about here

      This makes me think of all those mobile games (like GoT Winter is Coming) where each player builds up their own little kingdom and everyone attacks each other for resources.

      For the show I imagine a lot of smaller kingdom vs kingdom battles, which I suppose is essentially House vs House. I reckon all the Houses at the time are vying for power until they’re assimilated by the stronger. 😀

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    4. Clob,

      I agree, it’s probably safe to say we won’t see any large scale BOTB type battles in the earlier portions of the story, as that’d require some cohesion between the fragmented kingdoms.

      Perhaps the story will build towards uniting the various kingdoms, which would dovetail nicely with what we know of the Azor Ahai story.

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    5. Wonder what the budget will be? Probably not Seasons 7/8 of GoT, but probably not lower end of Seasons 1-2 either. Maybe Start off where Seasons 4/5 of GoT had.

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    6. Stew,

      Not just because of s8, but also because of s8.
      In my opinion, house Stark is the most boring house in ASOIAF, and the perfect Disney ending they got in GOT didn’t help at all.
      After s8 I just hate them that much more, and I was really hoping there wouldn’t be any Starks in the prequel, except maybe Bran the Builder in some very small role.

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    7. Nina: maybe Bran the Builder in some very small role

      I would think that since he’s supposedly such a central figure of the time in stories/legends that he’d be more than a small role. Of course the story could be more about other major characters and those that helped Bran with his activities. It just seems odd to consider him as a small participant or not in the show at all.

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    8. Clob,

      I agree, the fleshing out of his time is the most exciting thing about this series. George writes a lot about Targaryens but his main series was about the Starks. He writes very little about them beyond the main books presumably so as not to spoil but they are always ‘different’ and their story spans the story of the continent.

      – They come from the Age of Heroes, they began with the First Men on Westerosi soil.
      – They built The Wall
      – They were the only Kingdom of the First Men to successfully repel the Andals and hold on to their culture.
      – They are the inheritors of the story of Westeros, shown through Nan telling them the Oral histories and then Bran being a conduit for it through the Weirwood. Their religion is that of the Earth, of the land itself.
      – Being a warg is very rare, every single one of the Starks of the latest generation can warg and its hinted that 2 are greenseers. (Rickon’s dream about Ned in the crypt and how he knows no one is coming back)
      – They Knelt to Aegon and then bide their time until the dragons burnt out. Winter is Coming

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    9. Nina:
      Having Starks around will be a turn-off for me.

      Depends, what I would like is that the sentence that is used for the prequel, something like, history is not what we think it is. Is referring to that the Starks are the villains of this story. That is something I would like a lot. It would also add to that for instance if the child of Cersei would have lived, years for now the Lannisters could possibly the good guys again. Or if Dany would have had a child that would not be like her etc. Or maybe the NK is in fact a Stark.

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    10. Nina,

      If that’s a Disney ending for you, you don’t know what a Disney ending means ! I guess in your worldview anyone who doesn’t end up dead or in the vicinity of being dead means they have a Disney ending somehow ! But i’m sure you’re going to tell me that you totally understood the ending and what it means !

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    11. John Simm is pretty amazing, I’m fine with him playing whatever role they’ve got him set up with.

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    12. I hope, like the original series, the early seasons are dominated by political fighting amongst the humans. I have to admit, I’m just not that enthused by this time period and the focus on the boring-ass Starks and the White Walkers and Dire Wolves.

      I also hope HBO doesn’t become obsessed with having some stupid big battle episode every single season. Some of the band wagon fans that joined after GoT became huge are absolutely brain dead and they could put a bunch of dog shit in the scripts and as long as there’s zombies and big dumb battles they’d go absolutely bonkers.

      Not me. I want deeply rich and complicated characters and innovative writing that subverts expectations. The original series, despite its god awful finish, got me accustomed to a very high standard of storytelling and I will not settle for anything less. Hrmph.

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    13. This prequel is sounding promising to me.

      I’m also not too bothered by the fact that there won’t be dragons in it. As cool as they are, we got a lot them in GoT, so I’m perfectly fine with the sfx/cgi budget being spent on something else (hint, hint.. dire wolves!).

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    14. Jack Nabble,

      I feel the same way, i think the ending was completely opposite of a disney/marvel ending. the show was always about the starks and i felt the show kept that at the heart throughout the seasons. i loved how the show ending (might be different in the books) was always about how the starks were going to defeat the threat of ice and threat of fire

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    15. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      You do realize that these Starks Goldman will create won’t be GRRM or D&D version of Starks?

      She can write those characters however she wants. Why would they be “boring-ass”, like you think they were in original story?

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    16. mau,

      True, but each family has its own personality and, by in large, its members generally take on those traits. Like, the Martells are hot blooded, the Lannisters are devious, the Greyjoys are ruthless, etc. The Starks are honorable and stoic, so while it’s possible there can be renegade Starks like Arya and so forth, as a whole I wish we could’ve focused on another family and location in Westeros.

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    17. And that is actually promising af 🙂

      The collection of stories rather than one, epic journey – just like Game of Thrones.

      Multiple “main” roles, rather than one protagonist – just like Game of Thrones.

      Starks and Casterlys – which appears to be “historically” accurate – supposedly with no major retcons.

      Tons of kingdoms – divided – which leads to intrigue, conspiracies and bloodshed.

      I mean, I’m already in love :). I believe it won’t be as huge as Game of Thrones was, but most certainly – it won’t disappoint. That’s the post I have been waiting for 🙂 thank you!

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    18. Clob,

      “that doesn’t mean there won’t be other creatures like mammoths …”

      “Where are my elephants!”

      – Future Queen Cersei Lannister

      🐘🐘🐘🐘🐘

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    19. Jack Bauer 24,

      Hey Jack!
      Would you know if they’re only filming the pilot for now, and if so, whether the budget for a full season will be formulated if and when it’s greenlit?

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    20. Ten Bears:
      Clob,

      “that doesn’t mean there won’t be other creatures like mammoths …”

      “Where are my elephants!”

      – Future Queen Cersei Lannister

      🐘🐘🐘🐘🐘

      Just shave them and she’ll be none the wiser!

      (Which begs the question, would sheared mammoths look just like African or Asian elephants?)

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    21. As someone that loves Medieval history, the more I hear about this the more excited I get. The farther back they go the better, I’d love to see that early period of history come to life! Thank you for sharing these details!

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    22. I’ve been waiting for that! I was already interested in the prequel but now I’m excited and really looking forward to see it! 😎

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    23. Jack Nabble,

      Let’s see… Sansa became a queen, Bran the Useless became a king, Arya got to leave Westeros and explore the world and Jon got to live happily ever after in his beloved north.

      If that’s not a Disney ending then I don’t know what is.

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    24. Nina,

      Wow, sure if you put it that way and completely ignore all the context around it then i guess you can call it a Disney ending, i thought you were willing to participate in a serious debate but i see you’re choosing to be ignorant and let your obvious bias against the Starks, which even yourself admitted, take your rationality away.

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    25. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      I hope, like the original series, the early seasons are dominated by political fighting amongst the humans. I have to admit, I’m just not that enthused by this time period and the focus on the boring-ass Starks and the White Walkers and Dire Wolves.

      I also hope HBO doesn’t become obsessed with having some stupid big battle episode every single season. Some of the band wagon fans that joined after GoT became huge are absolutely brain dead and they could put a bunch of dog shit in the scripts and as long as there’s zombies and big dumb battles they’d go absolutely bonkers.

      Not me. I want deeply rich and complicated characters and innovative writing that subverts expectations. The original series, despite its god awful finish, got me accustomed to a very high standard of storytelling and I will not settle for anything less. Hrmph.

      Hmmm, so what you sound like you’re saying is that if I enjoy battle scenes I fall into that “brain dead fans” category……….I think the irony here is that calling out a large amount of fans as brain dead simply for having differing tastes to yours and generalising them as being brain dead for simply enjoying large scale action sequences and fantastical creatures makes you the kind of toxic hater that is all over social media whining about that last season without highlighting any positives to said season, but o guess that’s just this one brain dead fans take on your comment. 👏

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    26. Lovely to hear all these news about the prequel series. I might subscribe to HBO Nordic (€4,95 per month) for it. But it’ll have a very high bar to clear after GoT, nothwithstanding the slightly dissappointing last two seasons.

      For me, GoT was a twice in a lifetime experience. Shogun was the first one. A TV show that really gripped me, even changed my life.

      I don’t expect the prequel series to do that. But it could be interesting and entertaining. I’m glad this site is giving news about it and keeping us in the loop.

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    27. talvikorppi,

      “Shogun” was a great book (also).

      A friend read it, and gave it to me. Ever since then, we’ve had this running gag – any time either of us is guilty of the slightest oversight, e.g., if I left dishes in the sink or if he’d forget to get the mail, we’d replace a simple apology with:

      “May I commit seppuku?”

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    28. Nina,

      The Starks do great in Winter as we saw in GoT. They do terrible in summer, as we saw in GoT.
      Under the reign of Bran the broken it is Summer, so my view is: I truly feel sorry for the Starks.

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    29. Nina:
      Stew,

      Not just because of s8, but also because of s8.
      In my opinion, house Stark is the most boring house in ASOIAF, and the perfect Disney ending they got in GOT didn’t help at all.
      After s8 I just hate them that much more, and I was really hoping there wouldn’t be any Starks in the prequel, except maybe Bran the Builder in some very small role.

      I agree, House Stark totally got a Disney ending. Ned was falsely confessed to treason and beheaded, Catlyn watched her youngest son die and was murdered, Robb watched his wife and unborn child get murdered and the was brutally murdered himself. Total Disney treatment.

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    30. Yee-haw, the wild Westeros! Little more excited now. Those creatures are cool…hopefully there’ll be some gigantic ice spiders and elephants as well. ^p^ And I want to see what Old Nan described, what some of the living successfully united to save everybody else from in GoT.
      Love ensemble casts too.
      “The Longest Night” could work for a title.

      S8 also left me a bit cold on Starks, hah (do feel you strongly, Nina & LatrineDigger.) But I guess there’s no avoiding their ancestors, who may differ from what we’re used to anyhow. ;p

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    31. the Game of Thrones prequel series, tentatively titled Blood Moon

      One of Dany’s POV chapters in the first ASOIAF book mentioned the following story about the alleged origins of dragons:

      In Qarth, tales state dragons came from a second moon in the sky, which was scalded by the sun and cracked like an egg, and a million dragons poured forth.[1]

      So the placeholder title “Blood Moon” might actually be a reference to that. There won’t be dragons in the prequel…until the very last episode, depicting the incident described above.

      Not literally “scalded by the sun”, and not literally a “million dragons” either, but something broadly similar that forms the basis for the later myth.

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    32. BeardedOnion,

      More like Brandon and Rickard and Arya. Brandon who rode to the capital to challenge Rhaegar to a fight to the death. Rickard who said ‘don’t start fights but if you do, win’. Arya, just being Arya. A cold bitch who will kill all her families enemies. That is how you survive Winter.

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    33. Jai,

      not literally a “million dragons” either

      Clarification: I meant that the number of dragons emerging will be very large but far less than a million, not that they won’t be dragons at all.

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    34. And all this debate is pointless anyway, even if the Starks are in it’s not like they are the same characters anyway, it’s just a family name put in there as basically an easter egg, you need to have a little fanservice in especially if it’s a show set in the same universe as ASOIAF, Marvel does it all the time,Star Wars does it, it’s part of the nerd culture and you need to draw some of the fans of the original in otherwise what’s even the point of doing a spinoff at all ? If you have problems with it, that’s mostly on you than anything else, you are free not to watch it, if a family name bothers you that much, you’re probably way too sensitive to watch anything anyway !

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    35. Jack Nabble,

      Or there is nuance in some of our opinions, we like certain things about the prequel, and dislike other things. Not just some ridiculous polar reaction that swings towards overtly positive or negative i.e. we actually like to think about things and have opinions and don’t just subscribe to some buffoonish mob mentality.

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    36. Dane,

      I am just personally bored by huge battles between two armies, no matter how well done they are. I felt that towards the end of GoT, they were just trying outdo themselves just for the sake of it, and I found those episodes boring because I was barely interested in what was going on with the characters.

      I prefer the more intimate action scenes, the trial by combats, the Red Weddings, Dany’s taking of Mereen and Astapor, the Dance of Dragons. If it’s a bigger battle scene, there needs to be a unique element that sets it apart. Like in Watchers on the Wall the battle in, around, and on top of Castle Black made it interesting. Black Water focused more on the characters. But two big armies going at it (especially when one is zombies) = zZzZzZzZz to me. I’ve seen enough of those types of action scenes at this point.

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    37. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      That’s funny because you totally described yourself there, most, if not all your comments on this site have been negative, even before season 8 aired and you are exactly part of the mob mentality that you just described, please don’t ever reply to me again unless you actually address some of the points i made and write me something completely irrelevant when my comment wasn’t even adressed to you in the first place just like you don’t bulge into a conversation that you aren’t part of in real life . If this site had an ignore option, you would be the first on it !

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    38. Jack Nabble,

      No, you just choose to paint me a certain way because you don’t agree with 100% of my opinions. I always talk about my love affair with the first 5.5 seasons, and have been very positive about the prequel and all the decisions made on it thus far.

      You’re just part of this new crop of young people, the Twitter crowd, who see no grey areas in anything, everything is either for or against. You pick a hash tag that has a large mob of followers behind it because it makes you feel safe and choose to shout down anyone that dissents, knowing full well you have the support of an army behind you.

      It’s sad to go through life like that, please try and open up your mind a bit more.

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    39. Dee Stark,

      Me too i cant wait to see what they are going to do with house stark, my favorite family. Im hoping we also see the barrow kings and the red kings. i wonder how far it will go. i would like to see the maderlys running for lives and head north and have the starks protect them

      House stewart knows no queen but the queen in the north whos name is Stark

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    40. ortrun,

      The ending for all the surviving characters were rather happy, as it should be considering all the hardships they all had to face throughout the series. I don’t know why the Starks are being singled out. In fact, the only surviving character whose ending wasn’t completely happy was Jon’s, being forced into exile for saving the world from Danerys Stormborn.

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    41. Young Dragon,

      I think Jon was quite happy with his ending, no? He’s basically the defacto King Beyond the Wall now. He can stay out of the politics of the South now too, which he never wanted to be a part of. I would agree though that he obviously wasn’t happy about having to kill Dany, the person who will “always be his queen” even though he spent the entirety of season 8 avoiding her and incapable of being intimate with her.

      And his exile is a sham. The last we saw of Jon Snow he left Castle Black and headed North of the Wall with the Wildlings, who look up to him and admire him.

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    42. Mr Derp,

      Jon should be happy, yes, but he was torn away from his family and friends, who he may never see again. I was trying to avoid using the word bittersweet, as some posters are tired of hearing it, but that’s how I would describe Jon’s ending.

      And Jon’s exile was not a sham. He was exiled to the Night’s Watch, but the Night’s Watch ventures Beyond the Wall all the time. That’s their job. He’s just not allowed to return to the kingdoms.

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    43. Young Dragon,

      It’s ok to use the “b” word around me 🙂 I haven’t heard it in a while, so I’ve built up my tolerance for it again. We’ll see how long that lasts though.

      As far as Jon’s “exile” goes, the show didn’t make it specifically clear whether Jon was simply venturing outside the Wall or if he was leaving it for good to go live with the rest of the Wildlings. It sure seemed to me though that he was leaving the Wall for good.

      He always felt most at home North of the Wall anyway. Besides, Jon’s family can visit him anytime up North. I’m sure it’s somewhat “bittersweet” for Jon to not be able to visit Winterfell again though.

      Having said that, who is enforcing this exile anyway? The King of Westeros is Jon’s family, the Queen in the North is Jon’s family, and the only people who wanted him exiled are not exactly keeping tabs on him. Jon’s in a pretty good spot for being exiled.

      Additionally, the AOTD doesn’t exist anymore, so what role is the NW supposed to play now anyway? It’s basically just a collection of criminals with nothing to do.

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    44. Mr Derp:
      Young Dragon,

      Additionally, the AOTD doesn’t exist anymore, so what role is the NW supposed to play now anyway?It’s basically just a collection of criminals with nothing to do.

      I mean no one even thought AOTD existed when Jon came there in S1, so it’s not like NW needs WW to exist.

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    45. mau,

      The NW was also there to stop Wildlings from crossing into the South, which is no longer needed, since the Wildlings are no longer seen as a threat.

      The NW is under Sansa’s domain now too, so she can do whatever she wants with it.

      So, what is the new purpose of the NW exactly?

      I suppose you could say they are there to “guard the realms of men”, but thats a pretty vague answer when there is nothing left up North anymore that’s seen as a threat. Frankly, a collection of criminals with nothing to do is probably the biggest threat of all now.

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    46. Young Dragon:
      ortrun,

      The ending for all the surviving characters were rather happy, as it should be considering all the hardships they all had to face throughout the series. I don’t know why the Starks are being singled out. In fact, the only surviving character whose ending wasn’t completely happy was Jon’s, being forced into exile for saving the world from Danerys Stormborn.

      Do you think Brienne is completely happy?

      Do you think Tyrion is completely happy?

      Well, Pod wanted to be a knight but I am surprised that he is interested in a celibate kingsguard order given his talents/interests. I wonder how happy he will be over time.

      Davos, Bronn and Sam should be fine though.

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    47. mau: For now.

      The Wildlings shouldn’t have been seen as a threat in the first place. They were simply on the wrong side of the Wall when it was built, so it seems like the majority of the purpose of the NW was a sham to begin with. They weren’t protecting anything. They were just engaging in a pointless war with the Wildlings.

      IMO, one of Sansa’s first duties as QITN should be to completely re-think the purpose and functionality of the NW.

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    48. Just watched Jon Snow’s last scene again.

      IMO, it’s pretty clear that Jon is not simply on a ranging mission. He and Tormund are leading an entire group of Wildlings with their bags packed.

      Maybe Jon is just escorting them and making sure the Wildlings will be safe, and Jon will stay behind, but it really doesn’t look like it to me.

      They follow Jon now. He is their leader. He is going with them. At least that’s my interpretation. It’s somewhat open-ended though. That last look Jon gives as the door to the Wall is closing seals the deal for me. He is not coming back to Castle Black.

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    49. Mr Derp,

      Upholding oaths, vows, and deals is very important among the honorable characters in Westeros. Can you honestly see Jon ignoring his exile and breaking his word just because Greyworm isn’t around to notice? I don’t. That’s simply not his character.

      Regarding Sansa, even though we weren’t given all the details of the plan, I’m sure Greyworm wouldn’t have agreed to anything short of complete exile. After all, Greyworm was dealing with Sansa as well as Bran.

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    50. Young Dragon,

      Did Jon make any oath, vow, or deal when it came to his exile though? Wasn’t he just told that he was exiled and that was it? I’m pretty sure he didn’t have any say about it, so he doesn’t really owe anyone anything. Do I think Jon will ignore his exile? Probably not. I’m sure he’ll do as he was told in order to keep the peace. Do I think he needs to obey his exile in the end? No, I don’t.

      What I said was just a hypothetical to show that his exile is nothing more than a facade to placate all parties involved. Greyworm is in Naath. WOuld he ever find out that Jon traveled to Winterfell? I doubt it. Whether he actually decides to break his exile or not isn’t really the point though.

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    51. Upon further review, yes, actually Jon DOES break his exile.

      The rules of his exile are to reside at Castle Black as a member of the NW, but we can see in his last scene that he’s moving further North to live Beyond the Wall with the Wildlings, so, yea, consider the exile broken.

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    52. Mr Derp,
      mau,

      Mau is right in a way: it’s very likely that all those criminals and broken men who can be expected to be thrown into the NW in spades will resume war with the wildlings in no time. Moreover, the NW is subordinate to the king of the six kingdoms rather than to Sansa; therefore, there’s a legit possibility that it will develop grunge against the North as well. Sure, we can expect Jon to stand in the way but how long would he last under such circumstances?

      The best way for Jon would be going the way of Albert of Brandenburg (the 37th Grand Master of the Teutonic Order) and throw his vows through the window transforming the NW and the Gift into a duchy or kingdom but that would lead to a major conflict one way or another.

      D&D should have really done some research on the monastic orders before writing the script for S8.

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    53. Inga,

      If the NW is in control of KL, then Bran would be in control. Do you really think Bran will be ok with a NW/Wildling war? Especially knowing Jon is up there somewhere?

      If the NW is in control of the North, then Sansa would be in control. Do you really think Sansa will be ok with a NW/wildling war?

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    54. Mr Derp,

      Quite frankly I don’t see the North crowning Sansa QITN – it makes no sense. The North men aren’t far off from being barbarians, they aren’t Southerner with their fancy ways (as they would say). They would never follow a woman – unless it was someone like Lyanna Mormont or even Arya who is a fighter. Their entire lives have been spent defending their land and it’s a harsh environment and their leaders – lead them into battle. The whole Sansa in a Southern style gown with a fancy throne was just out of place. They’d likely marry her off to someone and the husband would be King of the North while she, like Catelyn, reproduced and looked after the home. So arguing over what she’d do might be pointless.

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    55. Mr Derp,

      EVERY ONE of those Wildlings – especially the kids – owe their lives to Jon Snow. But for Jon, all of the Free Folk would’ve been exterminated at Hardhome; Thorne and his goons would’ve gone on “cleansing” missions; or the Umbers and Ramsay would’ve wiped out any remaining survivors south of the Wall.

      He died for us.”
      – Tormund Giantsbane

      All Hail King Crow!

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    56. kathy: They’d likely marry her off to someone and the husband would be King of the North while she, like Catelyn, reproduced and looked after the home.

      Whether it’s a likely scenario to you or not, they didn’t do that in the show, so you are incorrect. Whether or not you approve of this decision by D&D is another discussion.

      kathy: So arguing over what she’d do might be pointless.

      So, it’s pointless to discuss with someone else what Sansa might do in this scenario because you personally don’t agree that she should’ve been crowned? That makes no sense. If you don’t want to participate in this discussion then don’t. No one is forcing you to be involved.

      And this isn’t an argument. It’s a discussion. Seeing as though Sansa IS the QITN, it makes perfect sense to discuss how she might potentially react to a NW/Wilding problem, or how the King of the 6 Kingdoms would react.

      Besides, Lyanna was a woman and she led Bear Island, so the notion that the Northerners cannot follow a woman is incorrect as well.

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    57. Mr Derp: He always felt most at home North of the Wall anyway. Besides, Jon’s family can visit him anytime up North. I’m sure it’s somewhat “bittersweet” for Jon to not be able to visit Winterfell again though.

      the order of NW was from the age of heroes, after the WW were pushed back, the wall came into existence via Bran the builder; over time the WW threats seem to disappear, but Wildlings started to try and get pass the Wall ( WW back ? )
      The wall was slowly in decay at least since Aegon’s conquest, and now no Targs rule, there is no 7 Kingdoms and no WW. The Wildlings are on good terms with the North.
      The wall is located in the North; in another country, that happens to be ruled By Lady of Winterfell and QITN.
      Bran’s order and rules end at the neck, once he allowed North’s independence.
      let’s say Jon sticks to the rule, as LC he can travel to meet with the King of 6 K and TQITN to talk on needs , repairs etc.
      Or he only has to deal with Sansa, either way he can see both in a ‘business” capacity and break no vows 9 though none seem to be asked or given, Just Tyrions words..

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    58. kathy:
      Mr Derp,

      Quite frankly I don’t see the North crowning Sansa QITN – it makes no sense.The North men aren’t far off from being barbarians, they aren’t Southerner with their fancy ways (as they would say).They would never follow a woman – unless it was someone like Lyanna Mormont or even Arya who is a fighter.Their entire lives have been spent defending their land and it’s a harsh environment and their leaders – lead them into battle.The whole Sansa in a Southern style gown with a fancy throne was just out of place.They’d likely marry her off to someone and the husband would be King of the North while she, like Catelyn, reproduced and looked after the home.So arguing over what she’d do might be pointless.

      Sansa is highly respected by the lords, as seen in S7. Northerners are FAR from barbarians, closer to Northern English and partially Scots.

      Sansa isn’t some pretty Southern girl, she wears Northern attire and they are well aware that she was the driving force behind taking the North back from the Boltons while everyone else was scared or didn’t bother. She was the one who brutally killed Ramsay. They would be completely stupid to not take her seriously, she’s got a backbone and stood up for them 24/7. The North chose her, as Jon said and for damn good reason.

      Plus Sansa’s ending is from GRRM, as are all the main characters.

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    59. Iul:
      Nina,

      The Starks do great in Winter as we saw in GoT. They do terrible in summer, as we saw in GoT.
      Under the reign of Bran the broken it is Summer, so my view is: I truly feel sorry for the Starks.

      Lucky for Bran, he’s no longer a Stark, and Tyrion is running the everyday duties.
      On top of that it’s not that they don’t do well in Summer, they don’t do well in KL / South.

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    60. Grail King,

      Thanks for the info 🙂

      I had a feeling that was pretty much the case with the Wall. It was initially built to keep the Others out, but it turned into a wall to keep EVERYONE out at some point.

      I imagine the NW got bored after a while since the Others didn’t show up for years, so the NW just started a war with the Wildlings because they saw them as “different” and had nothing better to do. All the more reason to restructure the NW and re-purpose it.

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    61. Nina:
      Jack Nabble,

      Let’s see… Sansa became a queen, Bran the Useless became a king, Arya got to leave Westeros and explore the world and Jon got to live happily ever after in his beloved north.

      If that’s not a Disney ending then I don’t know what is.

      The only one (s) who got a Disney ending was Bronn, Gilly and Podrick, everyone else lost all or a good chunk of their friends and family.
      Some were maimed, crippled, raped, defiled, disfigured, prisoners and mentally harmed .

        Quote  Reply

    62. Grail King,

      Yeah, we really got “A time for wolves” ending. The Starks came to KL and dominanted the election; got everything they wanted (except freedom for Jon – well… they kind of got that too).
      The thing I like about the last part of ep. 6 is the false history. Brianne filled “accurately” the book and Tyrion is not mentioned in “A song of ice and fire”. Westeros is great in accurately writing history.

        Quote  Reply

    63. I am going to be very disappointed if we don’t get House Dayne, Dawn, and the Sword of the Morning. Someone mentioned upthread that the possible title “Blood Moon” could refer to the legend in ASoIaF where the moon is struck by a comet. Many theories believe the fallout from this event led to the first long night, magic, Valyrian steel, and other strange happenings.

      The Greatsword Dawn was rumored to be made from a meteor. Was the meteor from the moon being struck by the comet? Could this be where they are going with the prequel? Where do the Children of the Forest fit into this story? Will they play a major factor? I’m kind of intrigued with how much setup they’re going to put into the pilot?

        Quote  Reply

    64. Mr Derp,

      Well, it’s hard to say. Sansa knows nothing about wars and battles, so if some hooligan-type were elected lord commander and started wreaking havoc left an right, what would she do? Most probably, try to make it someone else problem. And Bran and Tyrion might try to use the situation to bring the North back into the fold because its successful secession makes a band example for others, etc.

      And even if they do something, that doing would inevitably lead to the destruction of the NW. There were good reasons why the Templars were burned at stake and why other real-world monastic military orders were not favored. They followed “the sword is our pope” philosophy and were impossible to handle. Therefore I can’t imagine how the NW can be handled in Westeros: D&D left a fester and a big one.

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    65. If some want to see Benioff and Weiss act watch its always sunny in Philadelphia season 12 episode 2. They both are playing lifeguards at a pool.

      Iul,

      Just like our own history. As cersei said in season 1. The truth will be what you made it.

      History is always written by the winners.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Iul:
      Grail King,

      Yeah, we really got “A time for wolves” ending. The Starks came to KL and dominanted the election; got everything they wanted (except freedom for Jon – well… they kind of got that too).
      The thing I like about the last part of ep. 6 is the false history. Brianne filled “accurately” the book and Tyrion is not mentioned in “A song of ice and fire”. Westeros is great in accurately writing history.

      How did the Starks dominate the election ?
      Sansa didn’t vote, Arya didn’t vote and Jon didn’t vote.
      Once the other houses said yes ( even, Dorne, Pike and Stormlands ), Sansa said we aren’t voting, we’re staying independent.
      Many people in many of forums for many of years had a decent idea that the Starks would end up on top. Bran was definitely in the top tier for ruling.

      Yeah I caught the Brienne history change.

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    67. Mr Derp: Besides, Lyanna was a woman and she led Bear Island, so the notion that the Northerners cannot follow a woman is incorrect as well.

      Add Ryswell, Dusten, Whent, even Winterfell was run for a while by the she wolves
      a group of formidable Stark wives, widows, mothers and grandmothers. Four may be widows of previous Lords of Winterfell, and one the current Lady Stark whose husband Beron Stark is dying from a wound taken while fighting Ironborn.
      Hopefully this will come out .

        Quote  Reply

    68. kathy:
      Mr Derp,

      Quite frankly I don’t see the North crowning Sansa QITN – it makes no sense.The North men aren’t far off from being barbarians, they aren’t Southerner with their fancy ways (as they would say).They would never follow a woman – unless it was someone like Lyanna Mormont or even Arya who is a fighter.Their entire lives have been spent defending their land and it’s a harsh environment and their leaders – lead them into battle.The whole Sansa in a Southern style gown with a fancy throne was just out of place.They’d likely marry her off to someone and the husband would be King of the North while she, like Catelyn, reproduced and looked after the home.So arguing over what she’d do might be pointless.

      That’s not a Southern gown, Sansa is the living embodiment of the North’s weirwood tree, the only hint of southern style is the flowing sleeve for Margery Tyrell, everything else is the north and every member of her family and Houses Stark and Tully.

      The ending for the main characters are from GRRM, the road there will be different .

      GRRM like to write about the Targs, he found the family dynamics interesting to write about, same for Tyrion and his family, be he stated they’re the villains.
      But he called only one house his heroes, his NY Giants; the Starks of Winterfell.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Inga: D&D left a fester and a big one.

      Why do you persist in blaming D&D for the outcome? It’s been made abundantly clear that the endpoints were dictated by GRRM. If you don’t like the ending, blame the actual author.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Grandmaester Flash: Why do you persist in blaming D&D for the outcome?It’s been made abundantly clear that the endpoints were dictated by GRRM.If you don’t like the ending, blame the actual author.

      I blame them both.

      GRRM has a terrible work ethic, he promised D&D to finish the books, and to his publishing company as well. He screw them both, and he didn’t care. Because the reason he didn’t deliver is that he was doing every other project that he could grab. When you make a promise you try to honor it, he didn’t even try.

      D&D are mediocre writers at best, sometimes they write some great OC but most of the time is “bad poosey” quality. So if they are dubious writers when really trying, imagine the quality of their output when they don’t even care anymore. It takes a special kind of dumb mind to come up with this season script, specially the choosing of Bran scene, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen.

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    71. Inga:
      Grandmaester Flash,

      Yes, my bad. GRRM is to be blamed for this nonsense as much as D&D, if not more. After all, he claims he know the medieval history, LOL.

      Medieval history is irrelevant. ASOIAF is fiction. It’s a made-up world, and while certain events and aspects were inspired by history in our world, there is no reason why the world of ASOIAF should follow it slavishly.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Grail King,

      You’re assuming that the ending of A song of ice and fire was already spoiled by Game of Thrones, and the only remaining question is: how will George get to the same ending?
      Oh, how wrong you are!

        Quote  Reply

    73. Grandmaester Flash: Why do you persist in blaming D&D for the outcome?It’s been made abundantly clear that the endpoints were dictated by GRRM.If you don’t like the ending, blame the actual author.

      “It’s not what a movie is about, it’s how it’s about it.”

      – Roger Ebert

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    74. Loved GOT and can’t wait for the prequel but…

      5000 years of civilisation frozen at the medieval level with agriculture and metallurgy already attained is hard to believe. Once you have metalworking and basic knowledge of medicines and chemistry, it’s inevitable that the major discoveries and inventions would follow such as guns, internal combustion engines, electricity, planes, computers and mobile phones. In centuries, not millennia. Just saying …

        Quote  Reply

    75. Mordred: I blame them both.

      GRRM has a terrible work ethic, he promised D&D to finish the books, and to his publishing company as well. He screw them both, and he didn’t care. Because the reason he didn’t deliver is that he was doing every other project that he could grab. When you make a promise you try to honor it, he didn’t even try.

      D&D are mediocre writers at best, sometimes they write some great OC but most of the time is “bad poosey” quality. So if they are dubious writers when really trying, imagine the quality of their output when they don’t even care anymore. It takes a special kind of dumb mind to come up with this season script, specially the choosing of Bran scene, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen.

      Please refrain from using the term “bad poosey” I’m still trying to get over that most cringe worthy of one liners 🤮.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Iul,

      NO I’m not, GRRM gave them the end for the main Characters, he did not give the road that they will travel.

      His words.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Ten Bears: “It’s not what a movie is about, it’s how it’s about it.”
      – Roger Ebert

      The post I responded to addressed a particular aspect of the ending.

        Quote  Reply

    78. Dire guineapig,

      5000 years of civilisation frozen at the medieval level with agriculture and metallurgy already attained is hard to believe. Once you have metalworking and basic knowledge of medicines and chemistry, it’s inevitable that the major discoveries and inventions would follow such as guns, internal combustion engines, electricity, planes, computers and mobile phones. In centuries, not millennia. Just saying …

      If the “Roman” stuff in the leaked photos is accurate, the civilisation 5000 years before GoT was equivalent to the Roman Empire, not the medieval era. The implication is that the Long Night causes that advanced civilisation to not only collapse but for the survivors to regress. The planet’s cycles of long winters would also repeatedly cause major problems; most people would just be trying to survive during those periods, and resources for anything else would be limited too.

      There are other factors that would delay scientific knowledge advancing beyond the medieval era. For example, the bigger size of Planetos and its continents means it would take a lot longer for information to travel along trade & transport routes.

      The social structures would play a big role too, eg. whether the dominant culture in general encourages literacy, education, rationalism and scientific enquiry; whether such matters are available to all or deliberately monopolised by a small elite; the extent to which the dominant religion supports or inhibits this for the elites and for the wider masses. That sort of thing.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Jai,

      You make a fair point. The civilisation and knowledge of the Romans and Greeks (some originated from India or Egypt) was largely lost during the “dark ages” after the fall of Rome. Much of this knowledge was not regained or surpassed for 1000 years until the renaissance and the discoveries of Galileo, Copernicus, Andreas Vesalius etc. and the scientific experimental method. (And all this might have been an import from China.) In human history after the agricultural revolution which more or less coincided with the Holocene (end of the last deep glaciation) historians reckon no fewer than about 80 civilisations have risen and fallen. The Mayans for example had quite advanced dentistry, including decorative stones. But advanced organised civilisations have the impression of permanence from within, but are actually quite fragile and climatic factors have been the Nemesis of most.

      Let’s see if HBO and GRRM (who is closely involved in this prequel) can make it believable.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Dire guineapig,

      The civilisation and knowledge of the Romans and Greeks (some originated from India or Egypt)

      Originally Egypt and Mesopotamia, merged with the legacy of the Romans’ and Greeks’ Indo-European ancestors; some influences from older cultures in Southern Europe too. Greco-Roman influences later reached India during the Hellenistic and imperial Roman eras, and merged with the region’s own Indo-European legacy along with other cultural influences in South Asia. There was definitely some philosophical and scientific knowledge flowing in the opposite direction too, of course.

      was largely lost during the “dark ages” after the fall of Rome.

      Lost in the former Western Roman Empire. The eastern half obviously retained it; the scientific and philosophical aspects were later absorbed and expanded by the medieval Middle East.

      You’re right about China being exceptionally advanced during these periods.

      But I think what happened in western Europe is a clear parallel for what is going to happen in Westeros. The show will probably also depict whether Essos is affected as badly.

      In human history after the agricultural revolution which more or less coincided with the Holocene (end of the last deep glaciation) historians reckon no fewer than about 80 civilisations have risen and fallen.

      Someone on another thread recently made a brilliant point about Planetos’s “Great Empire of the Dawn” (the equivalent of ancient China, I think), especially the Bloodstone Emperor’s supposed role in triggering the Long Night via dabbling in “dark magic” and other dubious deeds. As I commented on that thread, the emperor’s actions may have also triggered the “Blood Moon” and the subsequent release of dragons.

      If all that is a common theme in the prequel, the show could actually be about the simultaneous collapse of major civilisations around the world. GRRM’s own interest in world history suggests this could be the case. HBO certainly have the resources and budget to pull it off. So let’s see what happens, as you said.

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    81. The Starks of old are meant to be ruthless warlords and nothing like Ned. I suspect we’ll see them dabble in all sorts of dirty stuff.

      Some people complain that the Starks are the most irritating, boring family of know-it-alls in Asoiaf, who try to be honourable to the point of snobbishness.
      Yet only Arya, aka the boring cliché of the rebel girl finds favour in their eyes.

      What’s funny is that the very same hypocrite people complain and shit on Sansa Stark, a rather feminine woman AND one who’s not afraid to do the dirty work. That character defies the clichés but unfortunately she’s one of the most hated character.

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    82. Netheb: Arya

      Surely you realise that most people don’t find Arya boring at all, even if they didn’t like the tedious beginning of her HoB&W residency? And rather than a cliché, she was the ARCHETYPE of something that only since has become somewhat clichéd. GRRM created her in 1991, though she wasn’t published until about 1996. And not to denigrate Sansa, but she harks back to fictional princesses over hundreds of years…ladylike, submissive, but steely and resilient underneath.

      George created incredibly layered main characters. While the show’s adaptation necessarily made all the mains less multi-faceted, neither sister can be summed up easily. Arya is a true original. How many young GIRLS have a classic hero’s journey? She;s not a rebel so much as a non-conformist who brings her father flowers! She outwitted the avatar of Death, who complained “A Girl has no honour.” Her courage and intuition are legendary, her warging abilitiy from abroad amazing, her penchant for surprise, full of possibilities. Few preadolescents enter a death cult on their family’s behalf! When she did, she saw a man whose head was a yellow skull with shreds of hanging skin and a worm in an eye socket. She kissed him, then ate the worm! Lo and behold, he turned into the Kindly Man. And she’s the least snobbish highborn in the whole bloody story. No wonder that, despite walking a moral tightrope, she is an inspiration for many girls…and parents. Look at baby naming trends: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/13/us/game-of-thrones-baby-names/index.html This resonates in a world that still does not just let girls choose what they want to be…and succeed at it.

      Please feel free to write a similar encomium to Sansa. No doubt there is much to say about her. I also prefer book Sansa to her show counterpart. But most likely the more primitive period of the prequel will rule out both girl warriors and naive and delicate flowers coming into their own. Alas.

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    83. Netheb,

      Sansa gets undeserved hate, I’ll give you that! I don’t know whether to laugh or cry when I see some people painting her as a villain or some nonsense (mostly from some hardcore Dany stans). She has a great arc, and I love where she ended.

      I also don’t see the need to dump all over one in order to prop up the other. Both are great characters. George doesn’t do cliche, especially among his main PoV characters, and Arya is his second favourite. And sure, like in pretty much all stories, the characters in ASOIAF share traits with some tropes, but what matters are the details, the journey, the execution — how it’s told and comes together in the larger tapestry of the story. That’s what makes each character unique and special in George’s work.

        Quote  Reply

    84. I know we are considered a newer House…but hopin for a great great great great great great grandpappy Seaworth cameo in this one…

        Quote  Reply

    85. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      But most likely the more primitive period of the prequel will rule out both girl warriors and naive and delicate flowers coming into their own. Alas.

      Not necessarily, especially if GRRM intends to base things on real-life history. Aristocratic Roman women could be formidable, even though they were in a patriarchal society; Roman women in general also had considerably greater legal rights than their medieval European descendents (although not comparable to modern standards, of course).

      There are historical records of Celtic women participating in warfare during Roman times; it’s not clear if this was the norm, but it happened enough to be noticed. Going further east during the same era, Scythian women were warriors as much as the men, and they regularly fought alongside each other in battles too.

      So the women in the prequel may actually be depicted as even tougher than those in GoT.

        Quote  Reply

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