Gemma Whelan on Game of Thrones season 6 and going off the books

Yara

Gemma Whelan talks to the British Comedy Guide in a new interview released today, with the actress discussing her stand-up work and touching on her role in Game of Thrones.

We last saw her character Yara Greyjoy in season 4, retreating from the Dreadfort after the botched rescue of her brother Theon. In the interview, Whelan acknowledges her return to the show in season 6, mentioning in their chat that she’s soon filming for Game Of Thrones.

There is a lot of tight-lipped secrecy around the show, and some of us pay attention to every detail. The actress says, “Even when I said I’m going to Northern Ireland on Wednesday to you just now, I thought ‘oh god, maybe I shouldn’t say that.’ You really watch your back on everything – ‘don’t say too much’. But at least it’s been leaked that I’m going to be in it, so I can talk freely about that.”

British Comedy Guide asks if Game of Thrones is ‘truly off the books now,’ and Gemma says,Yeah, they’ve sort of… not run out of books really, but they’ve liaised with George RR Martin who writes the books, and gone off on their tangent, with his approval. So that’s why people are even more interested in spoilers. It’s funny isn’t it, there’s no other show like it.”

Much of the interview discusses her comedy creation, Chastity Butterworth. Though it might seem unlikely for a comedic performer like Whelan to play Yara, her comedic chops helped lead to her GoT opportunity.

It’s really nice. Often what happens is, you get… not typecast, but they’ll think ‘that’s the go-to person for that sort of thing, and that’s the go-to person for that sort of thing.’

It’s just serendipitous timing. I would never have got my audition for Game Of Thrones if I hadn’t been in an audition for a comedy: the casting director just happened to think I might be right for this other thing [GoT], otherwise I would never have the opportunity to exercise those muscles, more serious acting.

Gemma Whelan discusses more of her comedy work and Game of Thrones at the British Comedy Guide so check out the complete interview!

186 responses

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    1. So if they’re truly off the books now, is all the speculation that they’re doubling back and doing Feast and Dance stuff just way off base? Wouldn’t Gemma know if they were doing

      the Kingsmoot from the books?

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    2. Ravyn,

      I don’t think her statements indicate there is no book content in his season. The show has substantially passed the books, but we can see from filming spoilers that that isn’t the case in every plotline.

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    3. mau,

      Even if Sue knows something more, there’s no need for any secret knowledge to know that we’ll go beyond

      the Kingsmoot, as we know it’s taking place in episode five. We’ll see more of the ironborn, unless there’s literally nothing else for half a season after the Kingsmoot, which is just setup, after all, so that wouldn’t make much sense.

      Still incredibly curious about what the setup will be for, though. Without Victarion, is Euron taking his place and

      traveling to Daenerys, maybe even meeting her by the end of the season? Some theorists even believe that Euron was following Victarion —in that case, it wouldn’t even be that much of a change from the books. Or maybe they are eschewing Euron’s dragon ambitions and sticking to plunder and conquest throughout Westeros… which would be a bit boring, honestly, but it could at least give us a sack in Oldtown. Does anyone have any ideas? What do you guys think will be Euron’s plans in the show? And what we’ll see him do by the end of the season?

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    4. Luka Nieto,

      Since we haven’t seen Pilou Asbaek in Spain, and there doesn’t seem to be any battle in Meereen, I think we’re not going to see Euron meeting Dany this season. On the one hand, that makes sense, since a king shouldn’t abandon his army to deal with the Tyrells, but on the other hand, the Ironborn only got interesting after the horn reveal.

      BTW, has it been confirmed that the Kingsmoot in episode 5 is the only one, or could it be a Kingsmoot 2.0?

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    5. Tywin of the Hill:

      Since we haven’t seen Pilou Asbaek in Spain, and there doesn’t seem to be any battle in Meereen, I think we’re not going to see Euron meeting Dany this season.
      There’s still two whole months of filming. And casting calls tell us they’re doing a big setpiece (it will take two weeks of filming) involving Dothraki in Northern Ireland. So there may be a battle yet. I’ll not rule out Euron going to Dany, at least not yet.

      Unless they do something big like that, I fail to see the relevance of introducing Euron now. The show tends to wisely deliver on its payoffs in the same season it introduces its setups, so I very much doubt we’ll only get an introduction to Euron and then… nothing but minor skirmishes, as it happened in A Feast for Crows. I’d bet something else will happen. I hope so, anyway.

      Tywin of the Hill:

      BTW, has it been confirmed that the Kingsmoot in episode 5 is the only one, or could it be a Kingsmoot 2.0?

      I guess you could be right. A tad repetitive, though.

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    6. I’m pretty sure that the Ironborn will go straight to

      the Reach and just forego Meereen altogether.

      However, I don’t think we’ll get the Oldtown raid this season since that’s likely to be a pretty big event (it might even be big enough to make up a “battle” episode), and we’ve already got Snowbowl and (possibly) the Battle of Fire coming.

      In fact, the Ironborn might not necessarily make any big moves this season, and S6 will just set them up for a much bigger role in Season 7. That would be slightly disappointing… but it sure would turn up the hype for S7 (for me at least).

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    7. Tywin of the Hill:

      the Ironborn only got interesting after the horn reveal.

      I agree with you on that. However, on my reread I was far less impatient with all the Ironborn stuff, because I already knew what happened to the characters about whom I cared. Because of that, I paid much closer attention to the Ironborn stuff, particularly

      the dragon horn. I think it’s definitely legit., but it got me to thinking. The glyphs say something like no one mortal can sound me and live. I am guessing that doesn’t mean literally mortal, but more non-Targaryen. No, I don’t think of them as immortal, or anything like that, but they are special. I wonder if only a Targ. can sound it and live. I also wonder if that means even if the person who sounds it is not who tried to control the dragon which responds (Victarion saw what happened to the guy who sounded it, and knows what the glyphs say, so he’ll force someone else to sound it), whether if the person who tires to control the dragon won’t end up bbq if they don’t have at least some Targ. blood. Some of this comes from the Quentyn chapter when he got fried. We know he has some Targ. blood, and I could swear it seemed like Viserion was starting to respond to him, but Rhaegal came from behind and toasted him. If Rhaegal had not been there, I can’t help but wonder if Quentyn would have been successful. So, I’m guessing maybe Victarion was cut from the show because he ends up toasted squid, but they’ll still bring the dragon horn into the story somehow…maybe with Euron. I really don’t know. I hope this makes sense. I’m just kind of free-thinking here.

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    8. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Given that there is no indication of Targs or others trying to use a horn with the dragons in The Rogue Prince or TP&tQ, I am very skeptical of this so-called “advantage” to the blower. I think blowing the horn will serve as a dinner bell for R&V.

      That said, I’ll be pleasantly surprised if Moqorro knows a spell or two to assist Victarion with his ambitious goal. Victarion riding a dragon is sort of a daunting mental image though. But…nah….

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    9. She’s got some killer Volfsball skills as well.. xD

      But seriously, is 6×05 confirmed for the Kingsmoot, because Sackheim was at Ballintoy at roughly the same time as Bender.. Sue? 😉

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    10. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I don’t think the horn would kill Targs., and I don’t think anyone who doesn’t at least have some Targ. blood would get anything other than fried when a dragon appears. I think it was probably used long ago to assist the Targs. in getting control of their dragons. You may well be right, but it was said the Valyrians used some magic to bind the dragons to them, and I think this horn may have been one of the ways.

      Speaking of horns, I think the horn found at the Fist is the Horn of Winter, and I think the Giants it wakes from the earth will be The Kings of Winter down in the Winterfell Crypts.

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    11. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      That is heavy.

      The kings of winter, awakened from the crypts! I have never considered the horn used for that purpose, nor the possibility of all those dead Starks awakening.

      Mind is just a little blown… Thank you!

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    12. Why I am not able anymore to see what’s written under spoiler??

      The only way I can see it is to copy and paste it on a blocknote!

        Quote  Reply

    13. Reader:
      I completely agree with you, she’s my absolute favorite GOT/ASOIAF character too!

      Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      How awesome would that be??

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    14. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Interesting.

      I must admit I am quite intrigued by the horn’s potential effect on R&V…and even D! But will GRRM actually enable a horn to bind and wake them all? I hope both horns do something…but something unexpected. I’ll be the skeptical one though. Maybe Sam will stumble across something relevant soon…

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    15. i love gemma! so glad she is back & cant wait to see what they do w/asha!

      i think i remember reading a theory ages ago about an ice dragon @the wall or wf?

        Quote  Reply

    16. yes! i wish we could get leaks of sams story.i know its prob mostly all indoors, so unlikely, but im biting @ the bit to know whats going on in old town w/the maesters

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    17. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Oooooohh! Nice! Might the use of that horn have something to do with how a certain character will rejoin the story? Both a Targ & a Stark. Hence the “early” loss of show!Shireen. TPtwP! I think that you may be on to something there, my Queen!

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    18. I think Gemma Whelan was excellent casting, and she does a great job with what is a fascinating book character. However I must confess I’ve felt a little shortchanged by the show’s skimpy representation of Yara/Asha up until now. Hoping that changes this season.

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    19. Waxfoot,

      The character is certainly different. Yara’s more dour and gloomy in the show, for a start. Asha’s a much more fun character. Whatever floats one’s boat, I guess. I was going to write that we may get to see her being more quippy this season, but I doubt she’ll have much reason to be less grim than she has previously been. However, there’s a misconception I’d like to clear up, though I don’t know if that’s what you meant by “skimpy”: in terms of screentime, Yara has got more material than Asha does in the books, proportionally.

      The quality of the rescue attempt on the Dreadfort in season four is dubious at best (great idea, cheap execution —shitty result), but at least they gave her something to do, while throughout ASOS she and all ironborn were completely absent. She became a POV in AFFC and, though with some delay, it seems she’s getting her relevant material this season —that is, her AFFC material. So, unless they greatly minimize Yara’s role before and during the Kingmsoot compared to Asha (which may happen, if Theon is present), Yara will have as much meaningful material in the show as her book counterpart.

      Why do I qualify that I mean her meaningful and relevant remaining material? The assault on the Dreadfort may have been quite dreadfully executed (pun intended), but at least there was a point to it in terms of Yara’s and Theon’s character, while Yara’s chapters in ADWD were rather pointless in terms of her character, weren’t they? Martin needed a POV in Stannis’ camp and she drew the short straw. That’s fine, but at least he could’ve given her something to do; the fact that she’s just there as as our shoehorned camera into Stannis’ tent is painfully obvious. I mean: why is a prisoner in strategy meetings, again? Can’t Stannis lose sight of her for a second, really? Martin tried to justify her inclusion, but he could’ve done it much more elegantly. Or just have her do something proactive and invent a POV for Stannis’ camp, or have Theon arrive earlier, or have Davos or Melisandre be there as they wisely did in the show.

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    20. Waxfoot,
      Luka Nieto,

      By the way, Asha has a single chapter in AFFC —just before the Kingsmoot. Only her first chapter in ADWD, in which she has fled the Iron Islands, is relevant to her own story instead of that of Stannis. She’s a minor POV anyway, and only the first two of all her four chapters pertain to her own character (AFFC, and to a lesser extent ADWD, has a big problem with great setups with no payoffs at all). So it won’t be remotely tricky to achieve or even exceed that in the show, even if Yara doesn’t become a main character —which she probably won’t.

      I hope it comes trough that I like Asha. After all, my main point here is that she had a good POV introduction and then literally nothing else for the rest of the book, and in the next book she mostly served not as a character but as a tool, a way for us to follow a military campaign. Hopefully Martin will give her something to do in TWOW, and D&D in the show too.

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    21. I’m avoiding spoilers like this season cuz I think that knowing about Jaime in Dorne and Sansa in Winterfell really ruined my enjoyment of the show. But this announcement sn’t really a spoiler, and I’ll just say this. At the end of last season, I really was hoping they would skip the Ironborn. But the top pic is just so awesome and is somehow even getting me excited. Those damn pirates do have a certain… something.

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    22. I think that the only characters are now off the books are only Cersei and KL, Dany and Jon. Tyrion can count if they don’t add

      FAegon or Penny, for example now

      . The rest has still stuff to do (excepting Sansa, in which we don’t know what she’s gonna do now).

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    23. SlayerNina,

      More than Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Cersei have caught up (though the rest of King’s Landing hasn’t; especially Margaery after her imprisonment and Kevan and Pycelle after Cersei’s walk of atonement). There are a lot of characters that you missed: Baelish and the Vale; Sansa Stark, whose storyline was merged with Jeyne Poole’s but is now even beyond Sansa’s storyline at the beginning of TWOW; Melisandre is right in place; Davos (his ADWD story omitted, apparently); Stannis not only caught up but went beyond ADWD; Roose and Ramsay; Theon; and Bran, who almost caught up at the end of the fourth season, and we’ll jump ahead according to D&D.

      The only characters who we know will have AFFC/ADWD material in season six are Arya (who only has two more chapters after going blind, and we know she’ll go into TWOW stuff by episode four or five); Sam and Gilly (though barely; most of the original story in their voyage was already adapted in the fifth season before they even left Castle Black, including their growing relationship, learning of Daenerys ruling in Slaver’s Bay, and Aemon’s death); Jaime and Brienne in the Riverlands; the Greyjoys; the secondary King’s Landing characters; and maybe Doran’s climactic revelations in Dorne.

      Most of it will be new stuff, especially among the major characters: Jon Snow, Dany, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime’s first half (possibly invented, not TWOW), Littlefinger, Sansa, Melisandre, the Boltons, Theon and Bran.

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    24. I’m excited about Yara’s storyline. I really liked the Iron Islands introduction in Season 2.

      I’ve heard complaints that she’s too ugly (an opinion I DO NOT share), but they seem to be missing the point. The Ironborn are even more misogynistic and brutal than the average Westerosi. They would never listen to a “hottie”. A woman with Gemma Whelan’s appearance is more likely to earn their respect.

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    25. The Tattered Prince: I’ve heard complaints that she’s too ugly (an opinion I DO NOT share), but they seem to be missing the point. The Ironborn are even more misogynistic and brutal than the average Westerosi. They would never listen to a “hottie”. A woman with Gemma Whelan’s appearance is more likely to earn their respect.

      She’s not conventionally beautiful, but the actress is very cute indeed. Not so much in the role; no one would describe Yara as “cute” in terms of her personality, so they made her looks match that. But she’s still not ugly, at all!

        Quote  Reply

    26. SlayerNina,
      Luka Nieto,
      I mostly agree with you, but… not entirely. Jon, for example, looks like he’s going off on a sidequest, and one that

      will be to a large extent what Stannis was doing in AFFC/ADWD (regaining Winterfell)

      . If one of the spoilers is correct, Tyrion may be doing some of

      ‘where do whores go’ ‘inner character progression’

      stuff this year, which is actually somewhat of a reversal to ADWD.

      But hey, I agree with you that, by the time the season is over, through the combined S5+S6, we’ll be pretty deep into TWOW. ‘Different paths, same outcome,’ indeed.

      …Let’s just all hope that Dany will finally at least start moving towards Westeros by the end, shan’t we? Gods, I’m eager for the endgame.

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    27. Gemma is an awesome Yara, imo… she has something about her face, a real strength and a sense of command. And she delivers lines perfectly, her reading of the letter in season 4 was chilling !

        Quote  Reply

    28. Yaga: Jon, for example, looks like he’s going off on a sidequest, and one that will be to a large extent what Stannis was doing in AFFC/ADWD (regaining Winterfell)

      Even if Stannis does regain Winterfell, which is just speculation, he certainly didn’t in ADWD, so it wouldn’t be backtracking, even if Jon takes Stannis’ story from ADWD and TWOW, as you seem to be suggesting (not impossible… I guess?). And what do you think Jon will be doing in TWOW, if not what he’ll be doing in season six? To be honest, I’m a bit confused about what you’re suggesting here exactly.

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    29. The Tattered Prince:
      I’m excited about Yara’s storyline. I really liked the Iron Islands introduction in Season 2.

      I’ve heard complaints that she’s too ugly (an opinion I DO NOT share), but they seem to be missing the point. The Ironborn are even more misogynistic and brutal than the average Westerosi. They would never listen to a “hottie”. A woman with Gemma Whelan’s appearance is more likely to earn their respect.

      I agree. A woman, who spent all her life on the sea, cannot be “super attractive”. And even GRRM never described her as particulary beautiful (her nose was too big…) – more like sexually attractive. I think all that fan art is the problem – they portray her as a typical “pirate queen” (like Angelica from Pirates of the Caribbean 4) and I have a feeling that her book counterpart is a bit stereotypical as well.

      On the other hand, people complain about the characters being too beautiful or not ugly enough (Ygritte, Obara, Shireen…) even though they are described only as “not particulary attractive.”

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    30. H.Stark,

      Woah. Completely unexpected, isn’t it?

      I guess we’ll return to the Water Gardens after all. Hopefully we leave them behind for Sunspear (the Alcazaba) early in the season. Not that I expect we’ll see much of Dorne this season, for better or worse. At least not on location —all in all, it was three or four days of location filming for Dorne. I don’t even think the actors were involved this time, at the Alcázar, or else the article would’ve mentioned it.

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    31. Luka Nieto,

      I think that Jon in TWOW will be dead. 😀 …well, until the time comes for him to be undead. I simply think that Jon will have very few chapters in TWOW, reappearing only after Stannis falls as AA.

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    32. Yaga,

      Gotcha. Though it would be a massive change from the books, it wouldn’t be a bad adaptation choice, either —giving the reconquest of the North to Jon Snow, a (sort of) Stark and main character, instead of to Stannis. Still, I think the simpler answer may be true… that Stannis dies trying to take Winterfell, not unlike he did on the show, and Jon in TWOW will do exactly what he seems to be doing in season six.

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    33. Luka Nieto: I guess we’ll return to the Water Gardens after all. Hopefully we leave them behind for Sunspear (the Alcazaba) early in the season

      The Water Gardens are beautiful and worthwhile to see/experience, especially since most of the audience would never get to see them otherwise. But I hope they don’t plan anymore action scenes to take place there.

      From what I understood, the restrictions on filming there are enormous, which was a part of the problem with trying to film the Myrcella abduction scene. Only a certain amout of time could be spent within the gardens, plus I would suspect many restrictions on bringing in equipment. Obviously, throwing an opponent into the hedges or hacking away at a tree would be prohibited.

      So, if they want to show Doran being wheeled through them, on his way to beheading Ellaria, fine. But don’t cripple the result trying to film anything greater than that. There is already enough groaning about Dorne.

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    34. Thronetender,

      That is a UNESCO world heritage site, you will be sued into oblivion even if you chip a stone from the walls/floor. While the locations is magnificent, it may be just too big of a hassle to film anything beyond dialogue there.

      So my opinion on this: hope too see more of this beatifull place, but I hope we get to another place soon, like Sunspear, where they can film freely, without the fear of demanging a World Heritage site and loosing their jobs.

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    35. MaesterMercy:
      i love gemma! so glad she is back & cant wait to see what they do w/asha!

      i think i remember reading a theory ages ago about an ice dragon @the wall or wf?

      Isn’t that obviously Jon?

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    36. Tywin of the Hill,

      The direction could’ve focused a bit more on the water part of the Water Gardens, right? I mean, there are pools at the Alcázar, and they even bothered to dye the water in them, but in the end we didn’t see much of them, if at all.

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    37. Luka Nieto,

      I don’t agree with you, sorry.

      -Melisandre is a side character on Stannis’ plot and then in Jon’s. So it will be WoW/invented story. The Boltons too.
      -Sansa will be an invented plot or the return to the canon (book 3/4, there are Vale characters confirmed). That includes LF.
      -Davos will do some invented plot but his storyline is also from book 5 (yeah, there’s a reason why Rickon will appeared next season).
      -Jaime is coming back to the Riverlands (book 4/5). It seems Brienne too.
      -Theon is coming to the Assembly (book 5?).

      Basically, most of the characters will go to their book plots or an extended/invented plot (and invented doesn’t mean WoW or future books). So, there’s still a lot of things to do. Actually, I don’t believe plots like Dorne will go on the next season.

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    38. SlayerNina: -Davos will do some invented plot but his storyline is also from book 5 (yeah, there’s a reason why Rickon will appeared next season).

      So you really think season six will have no TWOW spoilers at all, I see. Just invented material and catching up with AFFC and ADWD. You’re the first person I encounter who believes that.

      Anyway, I already agreed about Jaime and Brienne; the latter half of the season will be AFFC/ADWD, and the first half invented stuff. The other things you mention are only speculation, except for Davos. You say that about him as you said that about Stannis… but taking back Winterfell, as well as getting Rickon back, was only set up in ADWD. Actually going through with it will still be TWOW material. They only delayed the setup with Davos, nothing more. It’s not surprising; they always like to have their setups in the same season in which they can pay them off, whenever possible.

      SlayerNina: I don’t believe plots like Dorne will go on the next season.

      So the Dorne actors were just visiting Almería while Game of Thrones filmed at the Alcazaba? I mean, maybe you missed the news, I shouldn’t be so snarky.

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    39. Nymeria Warrior Queen,
      Speaking of horns, I think the horn found at the Fist is the Horn of Winter, and I think the Giants it wakes from the earth will be The Kings of Winter down in the Winterfell Crypts.

      At last! Somebody who shares my secret deeply held belief. At the very least, Ned, Brandon, Rickard and whoever had the “oldest sword in the crypts” will be resurrected (their swords have been removed). Dead Stark army at Snowbowl!

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    40. To be honest none of these actors or actresses know how much they’re going off the books, really. Because they, like us, have not seen the forthcoming source material. I suspect it’s not going to be as far off the books as some think. Perhaps Benioff and Weiss have combined stories, plots characters to make it easier to follow . But if someone is going to die, get married, or give birth, etc in the books I’m fairly certain we’ll see it in the show. The path getting there might differ, but we’ll still get there.

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    41. Off-Topic Otto,

      lol, obviously not to me heehe! sorry if i offended. i guess when i heard of it way back when, i just imagined jon or some other stark having a literal fire breathing ice dragon. it made since to me because the wall is so magical & wf crypts are so mysterious that i could see grrm throwing in another dragon, which i would love. my imagination runs wild most of the time, so thanks for pointing out the obvious lol

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    42. Lisa0527,

      this sounds amazing! im not familiar w/this idea, but would love to hear more details about it, if either of you get time 🙂 ive always thought that grrm would get a kick out of throwing a big surprise curve ball like this into the story. something fantastical like this that wasnt heavily foreshadowed & got missed by everybody.

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    43. Mihnea: Hey Nina, changed your mind on watching this season? Just curious.

      There is nothing wrong with changing one’s mind, if that’s what she did, so I don’t know what you’re getting at, always (relentlessly) asking her that question as if it was a “Gotcha!”. It isn’t. She is commenting on season six news, so it’s fair to say she will probably watch it, however disappointed she was with season five and whatever ultimatun she gave the show back then. Nothing wrong with reconsidering.

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    44. Luka Nieto: The only characters who we know will have AFFC/ADWD material in season six are Arya (who only has two more chapters after going blind, and we know she’ll go into TWOW stuff by episode four or five);

      And in Arya’s case, it looks like they have swapped some Winter material with that.

      Luka Nieto: Sam and Gilly (though barely; most of the original story in their voyage was already adapted in the fifth season before they even left Castle Black, including their growing relationship, learning of Daenerys ruling in Slaver’s Bay, and Aemon’s death);

      I would be really surprised if we see their journey at all. What I would expect is to see their arrival at Oldtown from Crows, and everything else from Winter.

      Luka Nieto: Jaime and Brienne in the Riverlands;

      Jaime, yes: but (hopefully!) with the plot heavily modified so that it feeds the Winter story (whatever that is). However, Brienne cannot be bumbling about looking for Sansa when she’s already found her. Whatever Brienne might be doing in the Riverlands will be new.

      Luka Nieto: the Greyjoys;

      And even there, it should just be the Kingsmoot. GRRM had not given us any first hand accounts of their attacking Westeros en masse in the books, just second hand reports about it. So, sort of like introducing using Sam’s Crow’s chapter to launch Sam’s Winter stuff, this could well be using the Crow’s Kingsmoot chapter to launch whatever the Ironborn do in Winter.

      So, this should be much more Winter than Crows. And we already have begun to spot some unifying links: lining up people who normally would not line up behind you. Whatever the story actually is, that almost certainly has to be a key part: and that was not something that was a critical part of Crows/Dragons.

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    45. Luka Nieto,

      Thats why I asked. I was curious if she changed her mind. No ”gotcha” intention.
      Simply curious if she changed her mind, nothing more.

      If I wanted to be snarky/mean I wouldn’t have asked politely.

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    46. Sullied by Knight,

      sort of like keeping him under control? and maybe targs keep rhollor under control? so they both work for the good of humanity maybe?

      im most interested in the north aspect though. who do you think needs to blow the horn sam found at the fists? a stark or just anyone, maybe samwell? or does he just discover the important info at the citadel and is he able to get that info to jon or whoever needs it in season 6?

      lets just ignore anyones snarky comments and enjoy our speculation 😀

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    47. steve: To be honest none of these actors or actresses know how much they’re going off the books, really.

      That is a very good point. Most of them have not read the books in the first place: actors often dislike reading the originals when they have to perform adaptations. (And that makes sense: their job is to follow the scripts, and reading a different “version” of the script probably is not good practice!)

      I suspect that the big problem is that people typically use phrases like “going off of the books” for differences between the movie/show and the book: but it is being used here (sometimes) for stuff adapted from unpublished books. This almost certainly is adding to the confusion.

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    48. MaesterMercy,

      I think it was one of those ideas you read on Reddit and go “of course”! It just seems so awesome and consistent with the story, and I like the idea of resurrected dead Starks in the crypts way better than I like the idea of a harp or wedding cloak (yaaawwwnnn). Just have to get those iron swords off their laps….

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    49. Yaga: I simply think that Jon will have very few chapters in TWOW, reappearing only after Stannis falls as AA.

      Jon will be a prominent part of Winter. After all, he is Protagonist 1 (or Protagonist A). The overarching story is going to rely heavily on how Dream!Jon evolved from Thrones!Jon: and we need to see/read that evolution of his character to understand the “who” of Jon come punch time.

      And I think that we’ve gotten some very important hints as to how that evolution is going to parallel Daeny’s. Daeny is seemingly going to be back with the Dothraki, where she is under a “life in prison” sentence for the crime of being a widow. And we have good reason to think that she’s going to wind up instead leading the Dothraki out for initial battles (perhaps for Meereen) and forward to bigger and still bigger battles.

      Jon should have a death sentence on his head for being a NW deserter. He’s already received one for being a traitor who has aided and abetted a Wildling invasion of Westeros. Just as the Dothraki should hold Daeny for life, any Northern lord should cut off Jon’s head. (And, no, “I was killed, and therefore my vows are released!” would not cut it as a defense. “I got better” works for being turned into a newt, but not for death.) And yet it looks like Jon might well be leading a coalition of Northerners and Wildlings against the Boltons.

      The question we should be asking is: how the hell is Jon going to pull that off? We need to pay close attention, because however Jon pulls it off probably will be an important step towards however the series is resolved.

      As for Stannis failing as AA, well

      he did that before Jon was assassinated. Remember, the Battle of Ice happens before the end of Dragons from Jon’s point of view. And as the Pink Letter so eloquently notes, Stannis lost.

      So, yes, Jon won’t revive until after Stannis failed: the assassination event necessarily happened after Stannis fell!

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    50. Wimsey,

      Yaga doesn’t believe the Pink Letter. I didn’t either, until we saw what we saw in “Mother’s Mercy”. Many others are still holding out hope, it seems.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Luka Nieto:
      Still, I think the simpler answer may be true… that Stannis dies trying to take Winterfell, not unlike he did on the show, and Jon in TWOW will do exactly what he seems to be doing in season six.

      Wimsey:
      As for Stannis failing as AA, well (spoiler) So, yes, Jon won’t revive until after Stannis failed: the assassination event necessarily happened after Stannis fell!

      Oh, I terribly disagree. Book Stannis hasn’t gone full-on fanatic and burned Shireen yet, and we know from the relevant Inside the Episode that he does this. Probably at the Wall, trying to defend humanity from the White Walkers, as that is the measure of Azor Ahai – that, not taking Winterfell; Winterfell is just an intraspecies political squabble, irrelevant, I think, like the equally irrelevant squabble for the Iron Throne.

      Still, you won’t convince me and I won’t convince you, so let’s ditch this topic until TWOW comes out and I can read its page on Wikipedia. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    52. Yaga:

      I simply think that Jon will have very few chapters in TWOW, reappearing only after Stannis falls as AA.

      That’s an interesting idea about Jon not being around for much of TWOW (ya know, assuming he comes back). I’d change the prediction a little bit though, and say he comes back just before Stannis meets his (probable) demise.

      I think Stannis will be set up in a position to fight the Walkers, prompting the reader to think to themselves “Right, this is it, could Stannis actually be Azor, or is he doomed?”, and somewhere in between that situation being set up and that situation being resolved, you get the first Jon PoV.

      So then it’s that typical GRRM thing of giving you something you’ve wanted for so long, but simultaneously giving you something pretty horrible at the same time. Like when he tries to make you empathise with Joffrey as he dies this pretty horrific death as his mother watches helplessly, or when

      Lady Stoneheart starts enacting her revenge upon the Freys, but it’s sort of a depressing, hate-filled perversion on the Catelyn character you knew before.

      So in this case, the reader is super happy that Jon is back, but in that moment comes to this terrible realisation that Stannis is now completely done for.

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    53. Wimsey,

      Ahh, I am always forgetting that bit of chronology.

      I guess every time I comment on this, I’m just optimistically assuming the bit in the Pink Letter about Stannis losing was just a lie. And also that the books may differ from the show somewhat in that they give Stannis a few victories against the Boltons, and allow him to live long enough to fight the Walkers himself.

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    54. Rygritte,

      Oh, using Theon as the main character of that storyline is of course wise. I’m just saying; presumbably Euron will convince everyone at the Kingsmoot with something, and I wonder what that may be. Will they follow the books on this? Will Euron have dragon ambitions, or are we to expect him to not have a plan beyond the usual ironborn pirating? If he has a plan, a goal, I must expect that he’ll reach it this season. The kingsmoot will take place around the mid-season, we know that much; presumably Euron will not just patiently sit and wait until season seven for five whole episodes.

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    55. Rat Kook,

      Yeah, I think that people need to drop that bit of optimism!

      There is one other part of the Pink Letter than people keep overlooking:

      Ramsay styles himself Trueborn Lord of Winterfell. Ramsay does not get that title until Roose is dead, so: what happens to Roose?

        Quote  Reply

    56. Rat Kook: That’s an interesting idea about Jon not being around for much of TWOW (ya know, assuming he comes back). I’d change the prediction a little bit though, and say he comes backjust before Stannis meets his (probable) demise.

      Yeah, OK, I should have said – around Stannis’ fall. But ideally (you know, if life, guessful Internet fans, slow writing pace and a show didn’t get in the way), TWOW would be a book centred around the concept of who is the Azor Ahai: Jon? Dany? Stannis? Maybe Young Griff?

      The thing is, GRRM set this mystery in a very different age – in an age when everyone read books on their own. If that still happened, that Stannis is a fake Azor Ahai would actually be a surprise to some (just think about it!).

      I’m a sometime-writer myself, and it actually feels to me that the fact that the Grand Mysteries of the series are mostly solved may be actually one of the reasons for the slow pace: because once the outcome has been guessed, speaking from experience, you really lose the motivation to write it out… Once you lose the element of surprise, everything becomes perfunctory. Didn’t GRRM write something like this once as well? That once he knows where the books go exactly, he has no real reason to write them anymore? Because that’s my sentiment exactly when I’m trying to surprise and someone foreguesses me. 😀

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    57. Yaga: Book Stannis hasn’t gone full-on fanatic and burned Shireen yet, and we know from the relevant Inside the Episode that he does this.

      One correction: no, we do not know that Stannis does this. We know that Shireen gets burned, and that B&W adapted the circumstances.

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    58. Luka Nieto: Yaga doesn’t believe the Pink Letter. I didn’t either, until we saw what we saw in “Mother’s Mercy”. Many others are still holding out hope, it seems.

      Ah, I had thought that Ramsay was wrong about having actually defeated Stannis. (I thought that he’d mistaken the vanguard for Stannis’ army.)

      I no longer think that. And I never thought that anyone other than Ramsay wrote it: there are huge flaws with all of the other ideas!

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    59. Wimsey,

      Oh shiiiiiii-

      I never once thought about that! Pretty exciting food for thought.

      Of course, now I’m just wondering “Ok, is this just further proof that someone other than Ramsay wrote the letter and doesn’t know how the succession would work (so possibly a wildling), or has Ramsay/The Hooded Man truly killed Roose?”

      Or maybe, *dons tinfoil hat* Roose wrote it, but he has some weird, supernatural plans for himself which don’t involve staying in Winterfell at all 😀

        Quote  Reply

    60. Yaga:

      it actually feels to me that the fact that the Grand Mysteries of the series are mostly solved may be actually one of the reasons for the slow pace: because once the outcome has been guessed, speaking from experience, you really lose the motivation to write it out… Once you lose the element of surprise, everything becomes perfunctory.

      Yeah I think you’re on to something there. And he then also adds to the writing time by creating newer, more convoluted mysteries/conspiracies to keep it interesting for himself and the people on the internet. So in a way maybe the internet made the books better by making them more ambitious, but yeah, I do sympathise with. It must have been such a difficult thing to adjust to.

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    61. Yaga: TWOW would be a book centred around the concept of who is the Azor Ahai:

      The story should not be about “who is Azor Ahai” but what AA is. And that comes in two ways. First, we need continued evolution of Jon, Daeny, Tyrion and all of those who will be AA (for AA “defeated” the White Walkers just like Sherman “took” Atlanta). Second, at some point, the main characters need to understand the truth behind what AA did: because the fairy tales will be (as Sansa now knows) propaganda giving only ironic versions of what really happened.

      Something that is going to be critical here is: why are the White Walkers back? What agreement/understanding/whatever between humanity & the Others has been broken? How does R’hllor fit into this, and what does it want with humanity, anyway?

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    62. It is good to see Yara back this season.

      All of you who regularly post know my speculation for the Ironborn storylin. So, I won’t repeat it in this post. This is specifically about the Kingsmoot.

      The Kingsmoot will probably be brief and then they will move on to the meat of the storyline. The Winter stuff in the later half of the season. The other question is what will they do in the first half with the Ironborn? If the Kingsmoot is in Episode 5, then what will the Ironborn be doing in Episode 1-4? Will they kill Balon in the first few episodes for a build up to the arrival of Euron? It seems weird to have something like that in the middle of the season unless there is build up or something else happening in the episodes beforehand. Like, BAM, here’s a Kingsmoot on the Iron Islands. That seems odd to me.

      Unless, I am incorrect and they are starting the Ironborn/Euron storyline in the middle of the season. Maybe I am weird about this and they will plop it in the middle. It is Game of Thrones.

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    63. Wimsey: The story should not be about “who is Azor Ahai” but what AA is.And that comes in two ways.First, we need continued evolution of Jon, Daeny, Tyrion and all of those who will be AA (for AA “defeated” the White Walkers just like Sherman “took” Atlanta).Second, at some point, the main characters need to understand the truth behind what AA did: because the fairy tales will be (as Sansa now knows) propaganda giving only ironic versions of what really happened.

      Something that is going to be critical here is: why are the White Walkers back?What agreement/understanding/whatever between humanity & the Others has been broken?How does R’hllor fit into this, and what does it want with humanity, anyway?

      My theory is about leaving the Wildlings behind the Wall is maybe a violation of the agreement. They walled it off to say the land north of the wall belongs to the WW and other creatures and south of the Wall is for humans. The Northern people left the Wildlings behind the Wall and the WW are like, “What? I thought we had an agreement. No people north of the wall.” So, these are the dire consequences. It is terrible but maybe they are taking their land back. Unfortunately, the current people in Westeros are paying for something they know nothing about because it is lost through time.

      I am not saying this is a good thing or anyone deserves it. The fairytale is very black and white in terms of what happened. The winners wrote the story. We all know the truth is probably more grey. GRRM loves to play in grey areas.

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    64. Wimsey: The story should not be about “who is Azor Ahai” but what AA is.And that comes in two ways.First, we need continued evolution of Jon, Daeny, Tyrion and all of those who will be AA (for AA “defeated” the White Walkers just like Sherman “took” Atlanta).Second, at some point, the main characters need to understand the truth behind what AA did: because the fairy tales will be (as Sansa now knows) propaganda giving only ironic versions of what really happened.

      Something that is going to be critical here is: why are the White Walkers back?What agreement/understanding/whatever between humanity & the Others has been broken?How does R’hllor fit into this, and what does it want with humanity, anyway?

      R’hllor is maybe the other side of the agreement? Maybe the person who originally defeated the WW and worked out this agreement. That is why AA needs to be resurrected in that prophecy. He wants to come back and get rid of his ancient enemies. The current characters are just vessels of this one side. The visions are communications from the guy who made the original agreement with the WW.

      I don’t know. I could be way off and R’hllor is nothing close to that theory.

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    65. StandOzone,

      Good question: my bet is that they get scattered. It’s possible that part of what Jon will do is rally them. And it’s just possible that Stannis does (or, more probably, his followers do) something really, really stupid that causes them all to abandoned him. In particular, some act of devotion to R’hllor (although not involving Shireen, obviously) might so offend the followers of the Old Gods that they leave him to his fate.

      Angela,
      I’ve considered that, but there seems to be the problem that the Wildlings have been there a very long time. There should be some more recent and/or more egregious violation.

      Something about R’hllor could be very important here. Whatever it is, it does not like the White Walkers. But I doubt that it is some beneficent entity: it’s playing the Game of Thrones for some Throne we do not readily imagine.

      Incidentally, your ideas concerning the Ironborn seem very plausible. I still wish that I could figure out exactly who’s story they are going to affect this season!

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    66. I’m glad to know some of you like my idea. I didn’t think it was too terribly out there. 🙂

      MaesterMercy: im not familiar w/this idea, but would love to hear more details about it, if either of you get time

      I haven’t formulated a lot of specific details, it’s just something I’ve been rolling around in my mind. However, it sounds like Lisa’s idea is different than mine, at least in that I would have to disagree Ned will be one of the ones “awakened,” since his bones, if I remember correctly, have not been returned to Winterfell. Also, my idea is specifically the horn of winter will awaken the Kings of Winter, of which neither Brandon nor Rickard were.

      ]

      Lisa0527,

      My idea is not anything I read on reddit (I don’t read reddit), nor anywhere else. It’s just something I came up with on my reread and have been mulling around since.

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    67. Wimsey:
      StandOzone,

      Good question: my bet is that they get scattered.It’s possible that part of what Jon will do is rally them.And it’s just possible that Stannis does (or, more probably, his followers do) something really, really stupid that causes them all to abandoned him.In particular, some act of devotion to R’hllor (although not involving Shireen, obviously) might so offend the followers of the Old Gods that they leave him to his fate.

      Angela,
      I’ve considered that, but there seems to be the problem that the Wildlings have been there a very long time.There should be some more recent and/or more egregious violation.

      Something about R’hllor could be very important here. Whatever it is, it does not like the White Walkers.But I doubt that it is some beneficent entity: it’s playing the Game of Thrones for some Throne we do not readily imagine.

      Incidentally, your ideas concerning the Ironborn seem very plausible.I still wish that I could figure out exactly who’s story they are going to affect this season!

      That is true. They have been there awhile. Maybe the return of dragons? It seems like the only big thing that happened recently. The violation has to be on a bigger scale. They have to feel threatened in some way to wake up. Unless, we are completely wrong and they are coming back for a different reason. It could be the price for bringing back magic. Like the Children of the Forest and the Direwolves would fall on the side of magic that isn’t awful. The WW are the price you pay for bringing all that back. Like a dam breaking. A small door was opened to this magical world and the WW pushed through.

      I don’t think that R’hllor is a good thing. I think that he/she/it is using all these characters to get what he/she/it wants in the story. We don’t know what R’hllor wants at all.

      I try to come up with stuff. Off season is for fun speculation. I could be way wrong when it comes to this season and everything else.

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    68. Angela,

      I should add: calling Hodor’s Bastard! He and I (among others) have been discussing what the WW/R’hllor/Human triangle, etc., really might be all about. You probably could make some neat contributions to that discussion. I’ll be stunned if it is not critical in the end. (Or if I stick my finger in a light socket.)

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    69. MaesterMercy:
      Off-Topic Otto,

      lol, obviously not to me heehe! sorry if i offended. i guess when i heard of it way back when, i just imagined jon or some other stark having a literal fire breathing ice dragon. it made since to me because the wall is so magical & wf crypts are so mysterious that i could see grrm throwing in another dragon, which i would love. my imagination runs wild most of the time, so thanks for pointing out the obvious lol

      No worries, I was genuinely asking if that was not the consensus amongst the theorists…

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    70. Wimsey,

      Count me among the crowd that thinks R’hllor is fake.

      The visions can be explained by other in-world phenomena like Glass Candles, Green Dreams, Dragon Dreams etc.

      The magic can be explained via Blood Magic already prevalent in the world since The Children of The Forest.

      The White Walkers are not going to end up being Sauron’s Orcs. From GRRMs previous works such as Tuf Voyaging there is probably a good reason why they are killing off humans and building large armies of the dead.

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    71. Turncloak: Count me among the crowd that thinks R’hllor is fake.

      How can R’hllor be fake? We’ve seen just too many things that its followers can do. And “blood magic” cannot explain how its followers get snippets of the future from flames or how they can revive people with mere prayer when no blood is involved there. R’hllor rewards sacrifice, but R’hllor does not require sacrifice. (Why it wants sacrifice and rewards it should be a multi-dollar question, in fact: you can bet that it is not for any “good” reasons.)

      If anything, then R’hllor might be an explanation for why blood magic works. The visions it sends are quite different from Green Dreams, so that seems to be a separate aspect of “power”: both seem to transcend time, but that is where the similarities end.

      R’hllor and the increase in its followers might well be a reason why the Walkers are back: perhaps Humans were supposed to give that up.

      And, yes, the Walkers are not orcs: that’s one major reason for wondering what is their deal with R’hllor and why whatever it is directs people to fight against the Others.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Wimsey,

      You could be right. And it even has been forshadowed… I mean, the Northern lords abandoning him by burning people… but… they are almost in WF… and until now, they haven’t done anything… why was the recruitment shown if the northern lords won’t do anything?

      I still hold

      the idea that Stannis defeat the Boltons but before enjoy his victory the Northeners will kill him. I don’t know how the Pink Letter fits on it… but I really think that D&D remove some stuff from Stannis to make Jon more interesting in S6… after all, most people will be more happy seeing Jon taking Winterfell instead Stannis.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Wimsey:
      Angela,

      I should add: calling Hodor’s Bastard!He and I (among others) have been discussing what the WW/R’hllor/Human triangle, etc., really might be all about.You probably could make some neat contributions to that discussion.I’ll be stunned if it is not critical in the end.(Or if I stick my finger in a light socket.)

      Yeah. I’ll like a discussion about the bigger scale story that is going on in ASOIAF/GOT. I agree, it is critical to end because it is all consolidating on this path. The powers of Ice (WW) and the powers of the Fire (R’hllor and Dragons) are present in the story. They building up to clash at some point.

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    74. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I’ve run the whole idea of a resurrected dead Stark army up the flagpole a few times on Reddit. Tried again yesterday…but nobody seemed too interested. So glad to hear others don’t think it’s totally crazy as a general concept, although the details are different.

      I’ve also sometimes wondered if the “sleeping” refers as well to the First Men buried in the barrows of the North? Presumably with their full battle gear. That would be a hell of an army. I wonder what would happen if undead First Men/Starks battled undead wights?

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    75. StandOzone: why was the recruitment shown if the northern lords won’t do anything?

      Your comment coupled with the show makes me think that the show parallels what will happen in the book: there, the sellswords and some troops abandon Stannis after he sacrifices his daughter; in the books, I bet that the Northerners abandon Stannis after he defiles a Weirwood and/or sacrifices someone of value to them to R’hllor. The Northerners might tolerate another religion, but that does not mean that they tolerate assault on their religion.

      And that might be key because both show and books need some source of northerners to form an army under Jon (and perhaps Rickon & Show!Sansa). The show might use the Umbers whereas the books might use defectors from Stannis’ army.

      What we still need to unravel is how Jon gets any of these northerners to spare him his head! He does not have a Drogon equivalent to cow the northerners into submission. (Well, not unless he gets an ice dragon! 😀 )

      Angela: The powers of Ice (WW) and the powers of the Fire (R’hllor and Dragons) are present in the story. They building up to clash at some point.

      The possibility of a dragons/R’hllor connection intrigues me. People have brought it up before. The fact that acolytes of R’hllor seem more powerful now that dragons are back (but yet clearly had powers before dragons came back) suggests that the two are separate but linked. How/why/what? And was this important for AA millenia ago? (I don’t think dragons were an issue back then, were they?)

      But, yes, classic Fanboy/girl “Fail” #1 is to get so hung up on the details that the bigger picture is lost!

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    76. Wimsey,

      GRRM has already indicated that he prefers to leave the nature of the gods ambiguous. Mel and co. have powers, but it’s not clear if there’s any guiding intelligence behind it, or just some some of uncontrolled magic.

      The religion of the Red God has no notable presence in Westeros (and has been a constant presence in Essos, as far as we know); Mel’s followers in Stannis’ army number in the hundreds. It’s really hard to imagine that that is in any way responsible for the Others’ actions, particularly as the Others were on the warpath well before Mel really started doing anything.

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    77. Sean C.: GRRM has already indicated that he prefers to leave the nature of the gods ambiguous.

      Their nature and their motives are two separate things. We need to understand the why of R’hllor, the Walkers, etc., not the what of R’hllor, the Walkers, etc. (The “why” of the Old Gods probably is not so complicated: that probably reflects the different Brans attached to the trees.)

      As for Mel herself, she is just one member of that religion. The Walkers are not responding to her alone. On the other hand, R’hllor seems to have been sending messages that she (and seemingly others) have read that ultimately are about the Walkers.

      So, why does it (R’hllor) care? I doubt that it is with humanity’s best interests at metaphysical-heart. Working its motive and how that motive affects humanity could be very key for Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc.

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    78. Angela:

      If the Kingsmoot is in Episode 5, then what will the Ironborn be doing in Episode 1-4? Will they kill Balon in the first few episodes for a build up to the arrival of Euron? It seems weird to have something like that in the middle of the season unless there is build up or something else happening in the episodes beforehand. Like, BAM, here’s a Kingsmoot on the Iron Islands. That seems odd to me.
      It seemed VERY odd to me as well, until I realized that we’ll be reintroduced to the ironborn through Theon. Yara and Theon must intersect, somehow, in the first half of the season, and she’ll send him back home. The Kingsmoot ensues, very much as in the books, except with Theon as a factor; though such a dickless traumatized factor is not gonna make a difference in the result. So, the audience won’t suddenly go back to the Iron Islands in the mid-season; Theon will physically go there, and we’ll follow his story because he has always been a main character. It’s such an elegant adaptation solution that hadn’t remotely ocurred to me until Theon was spotted in the Pyke scenes.

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    79. Wimsey,
      Your’e wrong. Ramsay is lord of winterfell because he married Farya (sansa in the show). Roose is lord of the dreadford and Warden of the north.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Wimsey: Your comment coupled with the show makes me think that the show parallels what will happen in the book: there, the sellswords and some troops abandon Stannis after he sacrifices his daughter; in the books, I bet that the Northerners abandon Stannis after he defiles a Weirwood and/or sacrifices someone of value to them to R’hllor.The Northerners might tolerate another religion, but that does not mean that they tolerate assault on their religion.

      And that might be key because both show and books need some source of northerners to form an army under Jon (and perhaps Rickon & Show!Sansa).The show might use the Umbers whereas the books might use defectors from Stannis’ army.

      What we still need to unravel is how Jon gets any of these northerners to spare him his head!He does not have a Drogon equivalent to cow the northerners into submission.(Well, not unless he gets an ice dragon! )

      The possibility ofa dragons/R’hllor connection intrigues me.People have brought it up before.The fact that acolytes of R’hllor seem more powerful now that dragons are back (but yet clearly had powers before dragons came back) suggests that the two are separate but linked.How/why/what?And was this important for AA millenia ago?(I don’t think dragons were an issue back then, were they?)

      But, yes, classic Fanboy/girl “Fail” #1 is to get so hung up on the details that the bigger picture is lost!

      Maybe they are made more powerful because they are on the same end of the specturm of Fire power. Dragons are the ultimate source of fire and those acolytes’ magic feed off of that fire magic. Yes, separate but connected. I think. As far I know, I think Dragons were around back then. Maybe not as many. Like at the peak of the Valyrian power. When they had many dragons and spread across Essos to get more land. I don’t know. I maybe incorrect in the timeline. Who knows because it is all lost in time. Maybe there were no Dragons in the world at that time.

      Yup, super geeky fangirl here. I want to know these things.

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    81. Luka Nieto,

      I didn’t say they won’t have spoilers. I said that the spoilers will come from Jon, KingsLanding and Daenerys plots, not the others.

      And as for Dorne… maybe we’ll see a couple of scenes of Trystane in KL or being killed and some kind of resolution between Doran and the SS, but

      without Arianne, FAegon, Doran’s revenge, Quentyn and the SS not being in the right places -one with the High Septon, other (inexistent) in Oldtown, other at KL and other rising an army

      and the huge criticism they had last year, I don’t believe there will have a lot of screentime in season 6.

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    82. Mihnea: Throneten

      Mihnea I like and have responded to both of your comments, I respect your opinions. But dear, you’ve asked Slayer Nina that before on other threads and she had the good graces to ignore it. It’s starting to annoy me. Don’t be that person, damn it. Let her enjoy herself on here as you are allowed to – if she watches she watches. She’s allowed to be shocked and then change her mind. We ALL are. LET IT THE F**K alone.

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    83. Luka Nieto:

      Okay. I am glad. I was worried for a second.

      If they have Theon coming back to the Iron Islands to tell the story, then it is less worrisome. We a nice build up to the arrival of Euron. Theon probably goes back for his father’s funeral and we meet up with Yara. The Kingsmoot happens during that time period. I just didn’t want the Kingsmoot to pop out of nowhere in the middle. We have events happening in the previous episodes.

      Good.

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    84. Angela,

      Very much agreed. The mid-season placement was a mystery to me as well. And even if it took place in the beginning, it would still be confusing without a main character there. The Dornish plot in the show was triggered by events in King’s Landing and the story didn’t get going until Jaime arrived there. It would be weird to suddenly go back to the Iron Islands without any prompting. So I’m happy with that they’re doing, though it hadn’t even ocurred to me.

      In fact, now that I know that the Iron Islands storyline will be used to further Theon’s story, I’m MUCH more excited about it.

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    85. SlayerNina: No, I won’t.

      You won’t watch season six? Or did I misunderstand?

      I don’t think we can say Mihnea was “just curious” (no offense to him intended, but he seemed to be quite facetious about it), but I’m honestly just curious: what do you get about speculating about a show you will no longer watch? Maybe you’ll experience it third-hand as a comparison to the books? It still seems to me like a bit of a weird thing to do, but I won’t tell you not to.

      SlayerNina: But you made me want to go on the troll route

      Please don’t.

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    86. Luka Nieto:
      Angela,

      Very much agreed. The mid-season placement was a mystery to me as well. And even if it took place in the beginning, it would still be confusing without a main character there. The Dornish storyline was triggered by events in King’s Landing and the story didn’t truly start until Jaime got there. It would be weird to suddenly go back to the Iron Islands without any prompting. I’m quite happy with that they’re apparently doing, though it hadn’t even ocurred to me.

      Yes!! If Theon wasn’t “beloved” because he was raised like northerners, I wonder what Yara/VictEuron could think about him now (being a loser + crazy). Specially if the rest discover the d*ck part, they have a really sexist culture.

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    87. SlayerNina: and the huge criticism they had last year, I don’t believe there will have a lot of screentime in season 6.

      Who criticized them other than hardcore fans? And why bring them back just for denouement?

      If they are back, then it is it is to contribute to this year’s story: the show never just tacks on stuff that “completes” last year’s story, and it never puts in stuff solely to set up next year’s story.

      That written, I do not know what that will be. I had honestly thought that they’d bring in Young Griff this year: after all, this would have been the year to do it. And I had assumed when Ellaria et al. walked off that this would be where they would go. However, it seems that they are doing something else somewhere else.

      Luka Nieto: The mid-season placement was a mystery to me as well.

      The whole bit with the Iron Born has been tough for me to guess: but I just do not have a good intuition for what their role will be in the overall story. I had not considered that their plot might be modified to back up Theon’s story. That creates some interesting possibilities.

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    88. Luka Nieto:
      Angela,

      Very much agreed. The mid-season placement was a mystery to me as well. And even if it took place in the beginning, it would still be confusing without a main character there. The Dornish storyline was triggered by events in King’s Landing and the story didn’t truly start until Jaime got there. It would be weird to suddenly go back to the Iron Islands without any prompting. I’m quite happy with that they’re apparently doing, though it hadn’t even ocurred to me.

      Me too. I was excited anyway but the placement of the Kingsmoot got me worried for a second to two. I was, like, why is that in the middle of the season? Shouldn’t it be in Episode 2, maybe 3 at that latest. If it is told through Theon’s eyes, then the placement is fine. He has to successfully escape the North and travel to the Iron Islands. It will fill up that episode gap.

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    89. SlayerNina,

      SlayerNina:

      a) Attacking everybody who don’t believe IS THE BEST SHOW EVER!!!!!!!11

      What does this have to do with my question? I wasn’t attacking you, my question had nothing to do with the show itself.
      Neither was I ”defending” it nor ”attacking” you.

      SlayerNina:

      b) Posting if I’m gonna stop watching the show?

      Again wrong, I didn’t told you to stop watching.
      You clearly stated in previous thread that you will not watch S6, so I asked if you changed your mind.
      And I was curious what made you change your mind, if so.

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    90. Luka Nieto: You won’t watch season six? Or did I misunderstand?

      I’m truly just curious (I don’t think we can say the same thing about Mihnea, who seemed to be quite facetious); what do you get about speculating about a show you will no longer watch? Maybe you’ll experience it third-hand as a comparison to the books? It’s still a bit weird, but I won’t tell you not to.

      I will someday, when WoW come out. Comment the changes made (good or bad) is always entertaining. And a good exercise of analysis.

      I’m not spoiler free anyway. I lived/worked where the filming were and people surrounding me too :/

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    91. Wimsey: I had not considered that their plot might be modified to back up Theon’s story. That creates some interesting possibilities.

      We don’t know how it will happen but we know that it will happen. Theon was spotted on the Pyke scenes, months ago now.

      Angela,

      I do wonder where Yara will come from, though. There’s a lot of stuff we don’t know yet —which is not a bad thing, of course. There’d better be quite a few surprises left when we watch!

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    92. Wimsey: Who criticized them other than hardcore fans?And why bring them back just for denouement?

      If they are back, then it is it is to contribute to this year’s story: the show never just tacks on stuff that “completes” last year’s story, and it never puts in stuff solely to set up next year’s story.

      Critics and the audience overall respond negatively too. Specially regarding the SS and the action scene from 5×06.

      They cut off Bran because “it was not good tv/entertaining”, so Dorne has a good chance too to have less screentime.

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    93. SlayerNina,

      Oh, gotcha. You just want to read TWOW first. More than fair enough.

      Mihnea,

      Your incessant hounding of SlayerNina through many articles seemed a little bit more than a mild curiosity, but if you say so, fine. Now you have your answer, anyway: she’ll watch it, but only after she has read the sixth book.

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    94. Luka Nieto,

      I asked her this question 2 times in two diferent threads.(this being one of them)
      I would hardly say that this is ”incessant hounding”.

      I was questioning if I should ask her again here, but I saw her active and posting and tought I’ll get an answer. Wich I did.

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    95. SlayerNina: Critics and the audience overall respond negatively too.

      The criticism was pretty muted: for the most part is was: “it was not as good as the rest of it.” It was hardly getting “flamed” by anybody save the hardcores.

      Luka Nieto: Oh, gotcha. You just want to read TWOW first. More than fair enough.

      Well, didn’t we all! At this point, I would say that the odds on that are pretty slim. (I know that there are more rumors about it being almost done, but those are almost as common as predictions by religious nuts that the world is about to end….)

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    96. Luka Nieto: We don’t know

      how it will happen but we know that it will happen. Theon was spotted on the Pyke scenes, months ago now.

      Angela,

      I do wonder where Yara will come from, though. There’s a lot of stuff we don’t know yet —which is not a bad thing, of course. There’d better be quite a few surprises left when we watch!

      I hope so too.

      I think she did not go back to Pyke. Maybe she went back to Harlaw where her Uncle Rodrik Harlaw who would give her shelter after her defeat at the Dreadfort. Like in the AFFC but modified because of the failed rescue. We won’t see that Uncle but she has to go somewhere. The other islands would be full of people who would taunt her about her failure. Especially her father, who told her not to even bother going to the Dreadfort.

      I just looked that up on that island Wiki Ice and Fire. I hope that is right.

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    97. Turncloak,

      Most of what is attributed to R’hllor has nothing to do with blood. Similarly, the clergy seeing the future in the flames has nothing to do with Greenseeing: it works only when they look into flames, after all. And reviving the dead with wishes cannot be attributed to any of that.

      Having R’hllor be real is far and away the simplest explanation.

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    98. Lord Parramandas,

      Agreed–Yara is not conventionally beautiful, but that should not be off-putting. One would think that by now a women could be judged by the content of her character, intelligence and leadership ability. On those counts, Asha/Yara is to be admired. She is a fully-realised minor POV character in the books and an intriguing minor character with possibilities in the programme.

      In the books, Arianne Martell IS conventionally beautiful. She too is a minor POV character, but she is next in line to rule Dorne. However, where D&D are concerned, she might as well be singing “I’m too sexy for my throne”, because they’ve seen fit to omit her storyline entirely. Perhaps they’d rather not confuse audiences with Dornish law that explicity lets the first-born royal child of either sex inherit the throne. Many readers saw this as yet another reduction of the importance of women in the telly version. Be that as it may, the book Kingsmoot sequence makes it clear that Asha/Yara is a candidate. Wouldn’t it be appropriate if this capable, dedicated, caring, clear-eyed, but plain woman
      ended up ruling the Iron Isles? Considering the personalites of Euron and Victarion and the physical state of Theon, she is probably the best person for the throne. Come on D&D–you’ve changed the books so many times, surely you can do this.

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    99. Stark Raven’ Rad: Many readers saw this as yet another reduction of the importance of women in the telly version.

      Many readers saw Arriane as a poorly-written character who not only added nothing to to the overall story, but who actually detracted from it. Arriane is not an example of women being important: she is an example of someone who happens to be female who fails miserably because she lacks any subtlety or grasp of the complexities of situations. She is not a feminist character by any stretch: a feminist version would have concocted an excellent plan that would either have: 1) worked, to the amazement of men that dismissed her; 2) worked, but have the credit stolen from her initially because she is only a woman, or, 3) almost worked but failed because a sexist sabotaged her in the end. Instead, she concocted a childishly foolish plan that failed not because of any sexism, but because it was just dumb.

      This was far and away the best cut that B&W made. Having women be on screen is not enough: they have to be competent on screen.

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    100. Stark Raven’ Rad:
      Lord Parramandas,

      Agreed–Yara is not conventionally beautiful, but that should not be off-putting.One would think that by now a women could be judged by the content of her character, intelligence and leadership ability.On those counts, Asha/Yara is to be admired. She is a fully-realised minor POV character in the books and an intriguing minor character with possibilities in the programme.

      In the books, Arianne MartellIS conventionally beautiful.She too is a minor POV character, but she is next in line to rule Dorne. However, where D&D are concerned, she might as well be singing “I’m too sexy for my throne”, because they’ve seen fit to omit her storyline entirely.Perhaps they’d rather not confuse audiences with Dornish law that explicity lets the first-born royal child of either sex inherit the throne. Many readers saw this as yet another reduction of the importance of women in the telly version.Be that as it may, the book Kingsmoot sequence makes it clear that Asha/Yara is a candidate.Wouldn’t it be appropriate if this capable, dedicated, caring, clear-eyed, but plain woman
      ended up ruling the Iron Isles?Considering the personalites of Euron and Victarion and the physical state of Theon, she is probably the best person for the throne. Come on D&D–you’ve changed the books so many times, surely you can do this.

      Yes, Yara/Asha is the best person for the job. That is the problem. The Iron Islanders want glory and to be feared again like in the old days. That is why they were all for Euron. Who wants to conquer everything and take the Iron Throne. She was the only one saying that isn’t going to happen and they will lose. Sober, sane, clear thinking, reasonable people can’t rally anybody. It is not exciting to say “Hey, we can’t conquer Westeros, let’s just rule the Iron Islands as a separate region and keep our conquering to what we can actually hold against any resistance. An example would be those fishing villages on the west coast of the North. ” That’s not a rallying cry.

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    101. I PROMISE I am not trying to start an argument here or add fuel to any existing ones, but talking about wanting to read the story first has got me thinking.

      In order for GRRM to get his ending out first, he’ll have to have published everything, rather than just TWOW, by approx April 2018, which is only 2 1/2 years’ time and doesn’t seem very long considering his recent writing rate.

      As a really visual person seeing a story is vastly preferable for me so publication (or not) doesn’t really make any difference. However, that’s obviously not the case for lots of people. I’m genuinely curious what they plan to do. The show’s so popular the outcome of the last ever episode will be very hard to avoid as will really major spoilers along the way. What would happen if we got to the beginning of whichever series turns out to be the last and there was still no sign at all of the final book coming out? Or are you doing my Shireen-denial trick? LA LA LA EVERYTHING’S FINE IT WON’T EVER COME TO THAT, DON’T HAVE TO TAKE A DIFFICULT DECISION 😉

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    102. Wimsey,

      That’s an exceptionally narrow notion of what feminism is.

      This has been cut from the show, but I guess we’re meant to use tags anyway? Anyway, Arianne’s arc shows her fighting against what she has every reason to believe is an effort to steal her inheritance. Sure, it’s not a very good plan, but she’s a novice. She’s meant to be learning as she goes on (TWOW will be the test of how she plays now that her father has stopped keeping her deliberately in the dark). She also refuses to be put into any of the condescending boxes that Arys tries to fit her into to explain away her sexual autonomy, etc.

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    103. Luka Nieto: You won’t watch season six? Or did I misunderstand?
      what do you get about speculating about a show you will no longer watch?

      She is lying. She will watch S6, just like every book purist.

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    104. mau: She is lying.

      Lying about what? She said she will watch… after TWOW comes out. Unless season six comes out, with TWOW still unreleased, and she comments on the episodes, she won’t be lying… even then, she could just have changed her mind, you know? Jeez… Chill out a bit.

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    105. SlayerNina,

      They’re usually nice! I mean, you and I apparently disagree on most things, but I don’t think there’s any need to be rude, is there? Some people have such an obsession with pointing out when someone was wrong or changed their mind, as if that was a bad thing.

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    106. Wimsey:

      This was far and away the best cut that B&W made.Having women be on screen is not enough: they have to be competent on screen.

      That’s paternalism. That’s another form of sexism. That’s why Daenerys and Cersei (their “lead” females) are given such scenes (one being a total badass delivering a lot of epic speeches/monologues instead of a teenager going after Daario and the total whitewashing of Cersei). Arya is some middle ground (erasing all the times she’s grieving by action scenes and snarky one liners), the others are just passive/victims/erased.

      I agree with Sean C. here, Arianne was about empowering women. If the plan was dumb, that’s another question (actually, if Doran had talked with Arianne first, the plan problably never existed in the first place). And about explaining how Dorne works… well, “In Dorne girls inherit as boys if they’re the eldest” is not a complex concept at all… One line…

      Given the record, maybe it was a good idea to choose a “plain” actress to be Yara, to don’t go to the “sexy pirate” route. Colateral damages: sexy/femenine women can’t be competent warriors.

      My great question was: why they changed her name? Because the excuse “it sounded like Osha” doesn’t work if they left Bronn/Bran…

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    107. SlayerNina:
      My great question was: why they changed her name? Because the excuse “it sounded like Osha” doesn’t work if they left Bronn/Bran…

      I don’t know. That is a dumb excuse. There are similar sounding names throughout the story. Why didn’t they change Robb/Robert too?

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    108. Wimsey, I just disagree with you about Arianne. It is all good.

      Just because Arianne’s plan wasn’t the most awesome in the world doesn’t mean it’s not feminist. Arianne thought she was losing her rights to Dorne and acted on that thought. It wasn’t a good plan but not everybody is great at playing the Game of Thrones. If Prince Doran trusted his daughter and heir more, then there would be no Queenmaker plot. They would be working together like they are now in the Winter storyline to bring down the Lannisters. It could have happened earlier if he told Arianne the secret plan. Arianne and the SS are being sent out on missions.

      That is my take on Arianne in AFFC/ADWD.

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    109. I don’t understand why Prince Doran kept Arianne out of the loop. She is his daughter and heir to Dorne. There is no valid reason. If he died because of his bad health, then the Princess of Dorne would have no idea what was going on. Then Quentyn dies and everything would stop. Doran did not plan this out very well. He needed to tell her much earlier.

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    110. Oops, I think I did a double negative on the first post about Arianne. I am trying to say that you still be a feminist and have bad plans at the same time. It can happen.

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    111. Rygritte,

      I was wondering about that.

      Maybe the earlier Winterfell set was the one that they had a problem with, per Maisie’s statements? I don’t know what sort of problem would have necessitated such major changes.

      James Rivers,

      The reports that I recall said they were indeed taking the set down. It occasioned much confusion, seeing as one can’t imagine that we’re not going to be seeing more of Winterfell.

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    112. Sean C.: That’s an exceptionally narrow notion of what feminism is.

      Narrow or not, other character types are not “feminist.” (Remember, we are discussing character types here, not the more general concept.) In no way does Arianne demonstrate that women can be just as competent as men and the one thing about feminist characters is that they are, at their core, competent, although men tend to view them as incompetent because they are women. (Competent women in a world where men do not hold that view are post-feminist: the belittlement by men is critical.) The issue for such characters is to succeed when their native talents are adequate, but they are not given a chance (or given much, much less of a chance) to succeed because they are not men.

      In this character’s case, the talents seem to be wholly inadequate. To rehash the criticisms from a year ago, she is closer to an anti-feminist character: when left to her own devices, she makes a hash of it because she is simply out-of-her-depths. Now, it would have been fine if her plan had been fundamentally smart but tactically naive – learning arcs are fine for any sort of character – but, instead, her plan was just silly.

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    113. Angela: I am trying to say that you still be a feminist and have bad plans at the same time.

      There is a difference between what real individuals who are feminists do, and what feminist characters do. A feminist character is not someone who holds feminist views, but one who has her abilities/deeds downgraded by sexism. It’s almost pointless to write a character who is incompetent if you are trying to inject a feminist theme: after all, one of the things that she has to battle is the assumption that she is cannot truly be competent simply because she’s not he. So, by starting with an incompetent one like Arianne, there is no question of her brilliance being dismissed as either luck or a man’s work or actually not brilliant because it was from a woman: there was no brilliance that any man would want to claim, dismiss as luck or need to denigrate!

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    114. Wimsey:
      Narrow or not, other character types are not “feminist.”(Remember, we are discussing character types here, not the more general concept.)In no way does Arianne demonstrate that women can be just as competent as men and the one thing about feminist characters is that they are, at their core, competent, although men tend to view them as incompetent because they are women.

      No, I entirely disagree with that. Feminist characters are those that articulate feminist ideas either in-universe (which Arianne does, incidentally) or as part of the thematic content of their arc (which Arianne also does). There is quite a bit of feminist content in Arianne’s story. You also overlook that Arianne’s actions occur because she is deliberately kept out of the loop; indeed, part of the story is a critique of Doran’s parenting and how it causes problems for his children.

      Wimsey:
      It’s almost pointless to write a character who is incompetent if you are trying to inject a feminist theme: after all, one of the things that she has to battle is the assumption that she is cannot truly be competent simply because she’s not he.

      As you say, “one of the things”. What you’re describing is one sort of feminist-themed story; but it’s far from the only one.

      Cersei, for instance, is character whose story has a feminist theme. The character herself is not a feminist, of course; quite the opposite. But her entire arc is a searing commentary on the way a sexist society internalizes misogyny in women, among other things. Cersei is also a complicated character in this respect, because she is both undeniably a victim of misogyny, sexual violence, etc. and equally undeniably a horrible person whose actions are not in any way excused by her own past actions.

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    115. Wimsey,

      Roose gave Ramsay Winterfel in the books, he is still the lord of the Dreadfort and warden of the North. I don’t think you can read Roose’ death into that.

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    116. SlayerNina: That’s paternalism. That’s another form of sexism.

      That is not even remotely close to paternalism. To make any character be strong (of whatever type) on screen, then the character must be able on screen. (That is what “strong” means.) He/she/it cannot have disabling traits such as foolishness, self-centeredness or bad logic: and Arianne’s schemes displayed all of these in spades.

      So, what it comes down to is that Arianne is a very weak character. She’s not made weak by sexism or anything like that: although she is a very poorly developed character, it seems that she (like Cersei) is weak because she never bothered to learn how the world works. Whether this foolishness stems from low innate intelligence, laziness or something else, we cannot tell: she was not so well-developed that we could infer this. But protagonists in feminist stories would be like that. Remember, what makes a protagonist “feminist” is the source of the obstacles that she has to overcome: and in Arianne’s case, it’s not sexism, but her own vacuity.

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    117. Sean C.: Feminist characters are those that articulate feminist ideas either in-universe (which Arianne does, incidentally) or as part of the thematic content of their arc (which Arianne also does).

      That isn’t how they are defined or diagnosed. If a female protaognist is failing for reasons other than sexism, then it’s not a feminist issue. This is not to say that female characters fail only because of sexism: but when authors write about female characters failing otherwise, then you are writing about why people fail, and not about why woman are not allowed to succeed. (Catelyn is a good example of that, as well as Cersei and Arriane.) And there is the big difference: a Arriane’s plan did not fail because men wouldn’t let a woman succeed; her plan failed because it was infantile (and would have been just as infantile coming from a man).

      Sean C.: As you say, “one of the things”. What you’re describing is one sort of feminist-themed story; but it’s far from the only one.

      Cersei, for instance, is character whose story has a feminist theme.

      You misunderstand what a feminist theme is. Now, part of Cersei’s development overlaps with that of many feminist characters: she recognizes and rails against the fact that she is treated as inferior because she’s female. But that is all she does: instead of trying to change it, she just sulks about it: “If I were a man, then I could X, Y or Z.”

      And, again: Cersei does not fail because men do not let her succeed; Cersei (like Arianne) fails because she really is pretty damn stupid. Again, a man implementing her schemes would also fail quite miserably. And that is not something that is true of feminist characters.

      Here is the best way to look at it. Feminism = anti-sexism. Sexism has no bearing on Arianne’s or Cersei’s failures. They do not succeed and have men take the credit. They do not succeed and show that women can do things as well as men. Therefore, it’s nothing to do with anti-sexism.

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    118. Wimsey:
      Turncloak,

      Most of what is attributed to R’hllor has nothing to do with blood.Similarly, the clergy seeing the future in the flames has nothing to do with Greenseeing: it works only when they look into flames, after all.And reviving the dead with wishes cannot be attributed to any of that.

      Having R’hllor be real is far and away the simplest explanation.

      My suspicion is that R’hllor is “real” in a similar sense that the Old Gods are “real”. There is certainly some real magic involved in both cases, but I think the motivation comes from people. People with real magical power, certainly, but people with their own motivations that are not necessarily “godly”, and with the same kinds of faults that ordinary people have. We’ve seen Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest, so we know a little bit about who’s pulling the strings on the “Old Gods” side, but we know almost nothing about the R’hllor side.

      The specific magic used by the two different religions is quite different, but both seem to have some genuine ability to see into the future, and pass visions to their followers, along with various other magic. Bloodraven has the Weirwood network, and R’hllor could use glass candles to similar effect.

      Here’s what Marwyn has to say about glass candles:
      “All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?”

      It seems to me that someone with one of those, who knew how to use it, could basically be a fire version of Bloodraven, imparting visions to people staring into flames. Perhaps clear, unambiguous two-way communication would require both people to have a glass candle, but providing a few fragmented glimpses of future events to people who stare at ordinary flames could provide a basis for building a religion. Maybe if someone at the Citadel figured out how to use the glass candle there to its full potential, the could directly “video chat” with R’hllor.

      Now time for the tinfoil hats: What if Gerion Lannister is the current “R’hllor”?

      Magic seems to have persisted, but at a much weaker state, for quite a long time, but it has recently grown more powerful. Magic seems to be more powerful when dragons are near, and it seems to have gotten stronger globally since the dragons hatched, but it seems that magic was already on the rise before that (White Walkers waking up, for example), and that the increase in magic may have been what made the dragon hatching possible in the first place (the Targs had been trying unsuccessfully for a long time). It’s not clear which elements are causes, and which are effects, but there is definitely some correlation.

      Another thing to note is that the White Walkers had been awake for a while (not sure exactly how long) before the books started. Mance didn’t gather that army of Wildlings in a day, it would have taken him probably years worth of isolated White Walker encounters for the Wildling tribes to be so collectively spooked that they would band together like that (can’t remember if the books mention how long it took).

      Also, Craster had been sacrificing his sons to the White Walkers for quite a few years. My suspicion is that Craster is somehow involved in their awakening. I don’t know if he did it deliberately, or if he did it accidentally and then tried to appease them, or if his sacrifices just provided them with fresh physical bodies, and it took some time for the oldest of the White Walker babies to become adults.

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    119. Wimsey: The story should not be about “who is Azor Ahai” but what AA is.

      I’m indifferent as to how strongly a different a point this is, but it doesn’t in any way preclude the need to complete the evolution of Stannis before coming to the conclusion that he is a failed one. And, once again: Stannis has not come to the endpoint of his evolution in the books yet. He’s not yet a full-on fanatic believing in his destiny enough to burn his daughter. Character development is important!

      Rygritte:
      Winterfell
      https://twitter.com/EmbarrFilms/status/658329283451047936

      I don’t really recognise it – does it have to be Winterfell, or could it be another Northern stronghold?

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    120. Wimsey: .A feminist character is not someone who holds feminist views, but one who has her abilities/deeds downgraded by sexism.

      You are right about the first part, a feminist character does not need to hold feministic views, but wrong about the second part, her abilities does not need to be downgraded by sexism either. Feminism is/should be about an equality not about a feministic activism. And Arianne is no less incompetent then many male characters, especially those whose name is Stark.

      A feminist characters can and should have many flaws, that is what being fully realized character means (as oposite to “a skillset with breast”, “a woman with gun/sword” or “a woman who can physically beat a man” which is often what many poor writers think a strong female character is). A femist character just have to be a developed character with her own story as oposite to be merely an appendix to male character story. Arianne is such character, as is Cersei despite her being an internalized misogynist.

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    121. GaiusB,
      Yeah, but it doesn’t feel like a feminist character should be characterised via nipples and the utter lack of brains required to hatch stupid plans instead of calmly discussing her career with her father, either. And that’s about the totality of Arianne’s character in the published books so far. She’s an idiot with big tits. Her “story” is not a story, it’s a misdirection to showcase how awesome Doran is. Her “character development” is “shh, girl, know your place, Father Knows Best”. In other words, she is an appendix to Doran’s story.

      e: Like, in the show, the maligned Sand Snakes and Ellaria at least did pull one off over Jaime and Doran, no? They achieved their goal. The book Arianne plot could have been resolved with one conversation: “Hey Dad, so am I or am I not the Princess after you die? And if I am, where are my teachers and advisors and why aren’t I taught actual politics?”

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    122. Angela: I don’t know. That is a dumb excuse. There are similar sounding names throughout the story. Why didn’t they change Robb/Robert too?

      They changed Robert Arryn to Robin Arryn…

      Yaga: I’m indifferent as to how strongly a different a point this is, but it doesn’t in any way preclude the need to complete the evolution of Stannis before coming to the conclusion that he is a failed one. And, once again: Stannis has not come to the endpoint of his evolution in the books yet. He’s not yet a full-on fanatic believing in his destiny enough to burn his daughter. Character development is important!

      I don’t really recognise it – does it have to be Winterfell, or could it be another Northern stronghold?

      My bets are on Shireen being killed at the Wall to resurrect Jon. Melisandre was there + she has royal blood + the wildings hate her because she had greyscale…

      To me, it’s too little to be WF. I think is a Northern stronghold. But who knows, most of the sets are “small” and after they have CGI… Probably we’ll know if we saw some of the cast involved.

      Wimsey:

      You misunderstand what a feminist theme is.Now, part of Cersei’s development overlaps with that of many feminist characters: she recognizes and rails against the fact that she is treated as inferior because she’s female.But that is all she does: instead of trying to change it, she just sulks about it: “If I were a man, then I could X, Y or Z.”

      Cersei is not a feminist. She despises other women and thinks men are better. Cersei’s themes and plot are not feminist. She wants to rule because she thinks she’s awesome and better than the other women. She won’t let other women to rule or change anything to allow that.

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    123. Aethar,

      Thanks!

      Luka Nieto,

      I’m thinking Dany being/arriving in Volantis would be a good season finale.
      I’m thinking/hoping, there will be something like the Mhysa scene in S3. But more ”fire and blood” or just showing her in a position of control, with Drogon perhaps.
      Something to show her growth.

      I know some people don’t like the ”Mhysa” side of Dany’s story, but I think it’s just too big a part of Dany’s character. It would be, in my opinion, a mistake to throw away this moral question.
      Or Dany forgeting about the her ideals and just go to Westeros, without fixing this problem she took on herself.

      While I do expect her to learn from Meereen and try to improve, I simply can’t see her abandoning her ideas/ideals on the slavery question/issue.
      So I expect she will face the same problems, in Volantis, that she did in Slavers Bay.

      But I hope to see more of a coherant idea/plan, from her.

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    124. Wimsey:
      Here is the best way to look at it.Feminism = anti-sexism.Sexism has no bearing on Arianne’s or Cersei’s failures.They do not succeed and have men take the credit.They do not succeed and show that women can do things as well as men.Therefore, it’s nothing to do with anti-sexism.

      No, again, you’re describing <em<one type of feminist theme. Cersei’s plot is a pretty sweeping examination of sexism in society, and in a sense, Cersei is trying to overcome sexism, but she’s doing so by trying to separate herself from other women. And it’s incorrect that Cersei’s attitudes have nothing to do with the gendered nature of society; a big part (though not nearly the whole) of why Cersei is the way she is is because she resents being relegated to second-class status. Now, she overestimates her own abilities markedly in the process, but she’s correct that she was never trained for statesmanship in the first place, and would have been if she had been male.

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    125. ghost of winterfell,

      They have finished… with the cast. They still filmed a few more days, apparently without any of the actors. Just like last year, the Roman Bridge will only be used for drone footage, and the brief return to the Alcázar of Sevilla made no mention of any actors, known or unknown.

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    126. Ok thanks! I can’t recall reading about the Alcazar either (its the water gardens, I think). It does look good for Dany making some progress through Essos!

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    127. Gravemaster,

      That’s the quarry on Knocklayd Mountain, which WOTW already reported on, though there is some kind of new structure there, isn’t there? Not very distinctive, as of yet.

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    128. Casso,

      I hadn’t thought that much about the glass candles yet. I’ve only just read that Marwyn has a glass candle burning. Some interesting thoughts if those indeed have a connection to R’hllor.

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    129. Yaga: I don’t really recognise it – does it have to be Winterfell, or could it be another Northern stronghold?

      it’s in Moneyglass, so….

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    130. SlayerNina: They changed Robert Arryn to Robin Arryn…

      My bets are on Shireen being killed at the Wall to resurrect Jon. Melisandre was there + she has royal blood + the wildings hate her because she had greyscale…

      To me, it’s too little to be WF. I think is a Northern stronghold. But who knows, most of the sets are “small” and after they have CGI… Probably we’ll know if we saw some of the cast involved.

      Cersei is not a feminist. She despises other women and thinks men are better. Cersei’s themes and plot are not feminist. She wants to rule because she thinks she’s awesome and better than the other women. She won’t let other women to rule or change anything to allow that.

      I was talking about Robb Stark about the lack of name change despite a similiarity to another character’s name. Sorry, I did not make that clear enough. Why keep Robb Stark?

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    131. Horrible incarnation of a great female character. Gemma Whelan is a really nice person but she’s so wrong for that role, she’s made Asha (I know it’s Yara but I refuse to adhere to that ridiculous name change) into a sullen, lifeless and dull person 🙁

      I also don’t believe for one minute that any Iron Born would follow that Asha into battle, she’s void of any charisma, charm or leadership qualities.

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    132. Sean C.: No, I entirely disagree with that.Feminist characters are those that articulate feminist ideas either in-universe (which Arianne does, incidentally) or as part of the thematic content of their arc (which Arianne also does).There is quite a bit of feminist content in Arianne’s story.You also overlook that Arianne’s actions occur because she is deliberately kept out of the loop; indeed, part of the story is a critique of Doran’s parenting and how it causes problems for his children.

      As you say, “one of the things”.What you’re describing is one sort of feminist-themed story; but it’s far from the only one.

      Cersei, for instance, is character whose story has a feminist theme.The character herself is not a feminist, of course; quite the opposite.But her entire arc is a searing commentary on the way a sexist society internalizes misogyny in women, among other things.Cersei is also a complicated character in this respect, because she is both undeniably a victim of misogyny, sexual violence, etc. and equally undeniably a horrible person whose actions are not in any way excused by her own past actions.

      I agree with you on there being a wider range of feminist stories. Feminism doesn’t fit into a small box.

      Prince Doran kept his heir out of the loop on a current plan he was carrying out. Why? There is no actual valid reason. He also sent her little brother on a mission to Meereen. Another thing he kept from her for some odd reason. Arianne needs to know what is going on and be educated on how to rule Dorne. Arianne is going to be Princess of Dorne. He kept everything secret and would not tell her about anything. I bet if she asked him about the secret plot he would have continued to kept it from her. It wasn’t until she messed up the Queenmaker plot and forced Doran to let her in it. He had to tell her because of the disaster it caused. He finally told her and they working together now. She is now receiving the training and education that should have happened much earlier.

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    133. Rygritte: it’s in Moneyglass, so….

      Oh! Money glass bring Winterfell must have slipped my mind – I’m still relatively new to this place and these spoilers. Thanks! ?

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    134. Can’t wait to see Yara again! Really, really like Gemma in this role.
      Really looking foward to see her scenes with Pilou, but most of all I’m really looking foward to her scenes with

      Alfie. No idea if this is a spoiler, but better to be sure.

      Also hoping she has some scenes with Balon. (Always forget the actors name!)

      Really liked her as Yara, and can’t wait too see more of her!

      Rygritte,

      Is

      Botley the nice guy that liked her since she was little?

      or

      that guy that rapes her, until she likes it….

      Always confuse this 2.

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    135. Rygritte,

      she never slept with Tris as far as I remenber. He was just the nice guy who liked/loved her. So…in the friendzone, but he did get 1 kiss in ADWD from her.

      Qarl is the ”cool” dude who rapes her until she likes it, but I don’t think she has feelings for him.

      Just think this as a Daario/Jorah situation. Just with a less interesting Jorah and a more boring Daario.

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