Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 5 photos released, and a battle is brewing!

Photo courtesy of HBO.
Capt. Harry Strickland and the Golden Company are back in Episode 5. Photo courtesy of HBO.

And just like that, we’re on the cusp of the second-to-last episode ever of Game of Thrones. Emilia Clarke has promised that Episode 5 of Season 8 will be “even bigger” than the Battle of Winterfell in Episode 3, and given the way last week’s Episode 4, “The Last of the Starks,” ended, we’re inclined to believe her. But a picture is worth a thousand words, so what do the official Episode 5 photos say?

Photo courtesy of Helen Sloan/HBO.
Photo courtesy of Helen Sloan/HBO.

Grey Worm (Jacob Anderson) is in the throne room at Dragonstone, and if a man has ever looked more ready to exact some revenge on enemy troops, I’ve never seen it. Is he listening to Daenerys (Emilia Clarke) give her orders for battle?

Photo courtesy of Helen Sloan/HBO.
Photo courtesy of Helen Sloan/HBO.

Both Davos (Liam Cunningham) and Jon Snow (Kit Harington) — er, Aegon Targaryen? Whatever he’s calling himself these days — look grim on the field of battle, which we’re assuming is outside of King’s Landing. It appears as those they’re looking at something unwelcome, which would be par for the course at this point.

Photo courtesy of Helen Sloan/HBO.
Photo courtesy of Helen Sloan/HBO.

Cersei (Liena Heady) looks decidedly less concerned than Davos and Jon as she gazes out one of the windows of the Red Keep — is she looking at the human shields subjects that she’s welcomed into the safety of the castle?

Photo courtesy of HBO.
Photo courtesy of HBO.

We might have our answer as to what has Davos, Jon and Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) looking so dismayed: 20,000 (give or take a few cheaters) well-rested Golden Company soldiers, lined up and ready to defend King’s Landing.

Photo courtesy of HBO.
Photo courtesy of HBO.

It’s not often that we see Euron Greyjoy (Pilou Asbaek) himself looking concerned — usually he’s cocky, angry or creepy. And maybe it’s wishful thinking, but does he look a bit more worried than usual as he gazes at the sky?

Photo courtesy of HBO.
Photo courtesy of HBO.

Daenerys, for her part, looks positively despondent at Dragonstone — hair unbraided and uncombed, eyes closed, leaning against a pillar for support. She looks to be lost in both grief over losing her best friend and desperation at the odds facing her in battle.

Photo courtesy of HBO.
Photo courtesy of HBO.

We see Jon and Varys (Conleth Hill) arriving by boat, but the location lacks the signature flysch rock formations of Dragonstone. It could be a different part of the island, but why would they arrive there? Is it King’s Landing instead? Or a different location altogether?

Photo courtesy of HBO.
Photo courtesy of HBO.

Possibly the same scene as Grey Worm, Tyrion looks to be in the throne room at Dragonstone, and rather than looking ready for a fight, he looks downright shocked. What has Dany said that could evoke this kind of reaction?

So what do these photos say to you? Is Emilia right — should we hold onto our seats for Episode 5? Let us know your thoughts in the comments!

612 Comments

  1. It would have to be bigger than Episode 3, since Episode 3 never happened.

    Also – it doesn’t appear that Dany is MaD QuEEn there; looks like Sad Queen who is reflecting. So maybe she doesn’t go instantly crazy.

  2. The fact that Dany’s hair is down is telling. It’s a classic sign of declining mental health, at least in the world of film and TV.

  3. I wonder if Greyworm is reporting that he overheard Varys plotting and possibly Tyrion is finding out something similar in that shot of him looking startled/guilty.

    I really hope there is a twist with the golden company turning on Cersei, because I don’t have the stomach for another battle endangering my favourites.

  4. I could have done without that photo of Euron Greyjoy. I just can’t stand the guy, grrr.

  5. Dare I say, Dany looks as though she’s accepting defeat?!!? (Giving up the IT to Aegon)

  6. So, I know it looks that way in the photos, but are we sure there is a battle occurring? Or is this a misdirect and dany just burns everything and the golden company do a runner?

  7. Oooo Varys is with Jon …. let the plotting begin. Also I’m still wondering if the underground tunnels will come into play in Ep. 5. Bryan Cogman did note that Blackwater was one of the episodes to “rewatch” prior to S8 beginning and in that episode Varys tells Tyrion that the Targaryens built King’s Landing to withstand a siege … “or to provide an escape, if necessary.” And now that the common people are all within the Red Keep based off of the last episode – those are the tunnels that would still be intact. Couldn’t the people be smuggled out next episode so that Dany has an almost guilt-free reign to burn everything? And I say almost because while the people may be safe, their homes, businesses and livelihoods would not be.

    Another potential setback would be how to smuggle them out if they don’t trust Dany &Co. It reminds me of the Unsullied infiltrating Meereen but this time they’ll have to earn the trust of the common people in KL if indeed they are going to try to smuggle them out. Either way, I expect Varys to die the next episode (as well as a few other characters).
    aaaand [book spoiler]…

    Still not convinced the Golden Company will fight for Cersei. I do think they will break their contract as they did in the books. I can imagine Varys sneaking to see them to shift their allegiance to Jon or perhaps they simply find out they are fighting against Targaryen(s) and that alone will make them switch sides.

  8. I’m half expecting Varys to have arranged for the Golden Company to bend the knee to Jon “Aegon” Snow right out in public and proclaim him the rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms.

  9. I am holding out hope for Ghost w/Nymeria and 1000 other wolves as well as House Reed joining the cause but I doubt it will happen. That’s what I’m most mad about with the last episode, Jon sending Ghost away with Tormund, not even a hug or nuzzle goodbye!

  10. Genuinely sad how disappointing episode 4 was. I really liked the first three episodes but I can’t even get myself excited for this one because of the mess that was ep4.

  11. That might even be the same scene from the still of GW. He seems like the type to tell on you in front of you. Hashtag nothing to hide.

  12. So it looks like Jon goes to Dragonstone before the battle. I wonder if he heard about the ambush on Dany and rode ahead before sailing to Dragonstone. Davos doesn’t appear to be with him so maybe Davos stayed behind with the Northern forces?

    Dany looks to have given up in that photo. It would be ironic if Jon is the one to convince her to fight.

  13. Those pics tell me nothing much new. They’ve gone too far with Dany wanting the throne at any cost, coupled with all her personal losses. And with Grey Worm now as angry as her, we’ve got both wanting vengeance and victory. If she were to give up now, he would never accept it or move his allegiance to AeJon. Not sure what he’d do, in fact. The fact that Varys is speaking with Jon might be the straw that breaks her. That and what looks to be Tyrion doing his “please listen” squinty face as he tries to get her to find another way short of total war. If she finds out both her advisors know the truth, it’s game over in my opinion. She’ll be done with Jon, Varys and Tyrion as all conspiring to get her to give up the claim. Would be nice if she just took Drogon and her team and went home to Essos. But we know that’s not happening. All I want is for Euron to die a miserable death, the Hound to kill the Mountain, and for the poor dragon to live. I can’t take another bunch of bloody scorpion bolts tearing into him. Oh, and creepy Qyburn better get his too somehow. Everything else I can deal with no matter how it turns out.

  14. In the preview for the episode, the shot with the golden company walking out of the gates (?) looks like they have hooded hostage with them in the middle at the back. Has anyone else noticed this? It’s alarming if it is a hostage!

  15. Che:
    In the preview for the episode, the shot with the golden company walking out of the gates (?) looks like they have hooded hostage with them in the middle at the back. Has anyone else noticed this

    It’s a rather tall hostage, to me, that kinda narrows it down to two people, and neither make much sense in way of giving jon/dany coalition much reason to abandon their position, either it’s the hound, who snuck in somehow and ended up as a prisoner, or brienne, who may have gone after jamie?

  16. Raenarys:
    That might even be the same scene from the still of GW. He seems like the type to tell on you in front of you. Hashtag nothing to hide.

    That was my thought this is the same scene. Tyrion looks afraid.

    What I’m curious about is the Euron photo. The obvious answer to what he’s looking up at would be Drogon. But he is not standing behind his ballista like he would be if Drogon was bearing down on him. Or is the dragon just out of range?

    Jon and Davos seem concerned or confused about what they are looking at or just disheartened looking at the amount of soldiers in the GC and sizing up another large battle.

    I like how the photo of Varys and Jon makes it appear Varys made damn sure to reach Jon as soon as he arrived at Dragonstone to whisper some gossipy shit in his ear.

    Dany is sad. Lost her 2 babies, 2 closest friends, boyfriend drama, and probably heard her last 2 advisors aren’t as loyal as she hoped. Damn poor woman.

    Smug Cersei I’m almost positive she won’t look like that by the end of the episode.

    What are Arya and the Hound up to? They should be involved in some roundabout way I’m sure?

  17. Actually, scrap my last comment – it’s a tall (!) figure walking away from the camera in the opposite direction!! Hmmmmm, wonder if it’s anyone important.

  18. Che:
    In the preview for the episode, the shot with the golden company walking out of the gates (?) looks like they have hooded hostage with them in the middle at the back. Has anyone else noticed this? It’s alarming if it is a hostage!

    consensus I am seeing is that it isn’t a hostage, but Jamie sneaking into Kings Landing.
  19. Dane ironfoot,

    I tried to edit but I was too late. It’s actually someone walking the other way. I replayed it on super slow motion and it’s someone tall, hooded and walking the other way. Someone significant I imagine because why else have them in that shot?

  20. The Night’s Jester:

    I’m half expecting Varys to have arranged for the Golden Company to bend the knee to Jon “Aegon” Snow right out in public and proclaim him the rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms.

    Maybe not publicly, but I could see him/them doing this. GC’s probably sick to death of Cersei and Euron right now.

  21. Che,

    I thought it was a hooded person walking away. Trying not be noticed at the back of the Golden Company. Looks to be tall so I thought it was maybe the Hound trying to get into KL.

    Not sure who would be a valuable hostage that they could have taken.

  22. Ghostgirl:
    Che,

    I thought it was a hooded person walking away. Trying not be noticed at the back of the Golden Company. Looks to be tall so I thought it was maybe the Hound trying to get into KL.

    Not sure who would be a valuable hostage that they could have taken.

    I wish I’d hit edit in time 😂 I went back and looked on slow motion and saw it was someone walking the other way. I just didn’t edit my comment in time.

  23. I have to say I am enjoying being completely clue-free about what is going to happen. So far, all of my guess/predictions have been wrong (except Jorah dying and Sam living). It makes watching so stressful/fun!

  24. Roberta Baratheon:
    I have to say I am enjoying being completely clue-free about what is going to happen.So far, all of my guess/predictions have been wrong (except Jorah dying and Sam living).It makes watching so stressful/fun!

    So true. I spoiled last season for my self by reading the plot points on reddit. The season was still enjoyable, but I found myself worrying more about stuff I knew would happen. This is so much better not knowing. It is more fun to speculate and be wrong.

  25. I’d love the GC to turn on Cersei. If they do, I feel Varys will be involved. I wonder if the reason we aren’t seeing Varys in the throne room is that he has gone to get Jon?

    Tyrion is next to Jon when they are standing outside KL so I wonder if Tyrion has any advice for Jon. I like that Davos still stands by Jon.

    The Night’s Jester,

    Having the GC just kneel before Jon would be rather funny (a part of me wants to see that just to see the look on Cersei’s face!), which is why I don’t expect it.

  26. Tyrion looks positively shocked. One can only hope that’s because he’s refusing to believe Dany gave up the throne to Jon. Because I still believe he’ll do the right thing and support Dany through everything!

    Yes, you know it. I finally turned into a Dany fan because I do not like these Starks and their “I don’t trust her” theme they had up there in the weirwood. It’s like a damn self fulfilling prophecy out there. LF teaching Sansa from the grave to divide and conquer.

  27. Eddard:
    Genuinely sad how disappointing episode 4 was. I really liked the first three episodes but I can’t even get myself excited for this one because of the mess that was ep4.

    That kind of talk will get you laughed out of here unfortunately. The site that used to house all the fans who could intelligently speak about the show, good and bad, has given way to a bunch of fangirls who are super stoked that Brienne and Jaime finally DID IT and that Gendry proposed to Arya, eff any common sense.

  28. Ghostgirl,

    Would it be? After all, Cersei is the woman who was responsible for the beheading of his “father”. That led to Robb’s death, Sansa’s torment, Arya’s missing. Bran had to flee Winterfell and in the last consequence Rickon died. Everything the Starks have been through can be led more or less directly to Cersei. What was it he said to her in the dragonpit? “This is serious. I wouldn’t be here, if it wasn’t.” And it’s true. Without the threat from the NK he would have never negotiated with her.
    And she betrayed them. She stabbed them in the back, not only the North, but Westeros and maybe even mankind. And they lost so many in this fight.
    Now she stands in the way of the woman he gave his word to, and we know that Jon is a man of his word. He pledged himself to this woman, who did the exact opposite thing of Cersei, who helped him and Westeros, a woman who kept her word. As it happens, it’s also the woman he loves and family. I actually can imagine quite well, that he himself has two or three issues with Cersei.

  29. Gods, they really are heavily foreshadowing Dany’s downfall. From the look of her to Varys conspiring around Jon. This is going to be a dreadful episode to watch. It’s the first time I’ve ever truly been scared to see what happens. I was dreading the Red Wedding, but I knew it was coming. This feels similar, but I have no idea what will happen. Main POV characters are probably going to die. I’m not ready.

  30. serum,

    Jon saved his life and set him free, something Jon himself would like to be: free. They are likely to see each other again. They’ve got the North in them, ‘the real North’.

  31. I don’t buy this “Dany the Mad Queen” crap either: they are trying to sell it hard, but I don’t buy it. Dany has been buith as a very smart strategist knowing how to take a city with minimum casualties and I think I know her battle plan.

    The set photos show that the city gate will be blown by dragonfore from WITHIN and the promo shows Euron surprised. Based on that, I imagine the following. Dany will pretend to attack the Iron Fleet but instead she’ll fly over the city, land in the main street and blow the city gate from within. She will blow off some roofs, too, to create panic, but she won’t be destroying the city for the sake of destruction: she’ll be targeting the gate. This way, the Golden Company will be trapped between dragonfire and city walls on one side and Dany’s army on the other and this shoold lead to its defeat/surrender.

    If the events play this way, Dany’s army should take the city without turning it into a slaughter: the Unsullied are disciplinned and Jon should be capable to keep his northern forces from wreaking havoc, too. Euron will not be able to help Cersei and I imagine he’ll try to set a sail elsewhere. That’s where Yara may come into play.

    As for Cersei, I imagine she should try to surrender to Jon: Jon is an honorable man who won’t be able to execute a pregnat woman, so this would buy her time. But here’s where Jaime comes into play.

    And one more point: I think that Euron might trick Cersei into drinking some Moon Tea, before he leaves: no way he will allow her to go unpunished for trying to pass Jaime’s child as his. One way or another, I have a strong feeling that Tyrion brought up her pregnancy in a concious attempt to drive a wedge between her and Euron and at the very least it should serve as a motivation for Euron to show Cersei his big finger at the moment of the most dire need.

    My biggest worry is that Varys will hire some assassins and won’t be able to call them back even when he finds out that Dany is not a mad queen.

  32. Eddard:
    Genuinely sad how disappointing episode 4 was. I really liked the first three episodes but I can’t even get myself excited for this one because of the mess that was ep4.

    I hear you.

  33. Hanni,

    Oh, I’m sure he has issues with Cersei for the many reasons you noted. I just don’t think the man who ‘is tired of fighting’ would insist on a fight when their armies are low in numbers and energy. I feel he would be more likely to say let’s disappear, but I also think he would struggle with a relationship as he’s still processing the ‘aunt’ thing.

    Threats to Sansa and the North may well make him buck his ideas up. But Jon’s never really advocated a fight, so I think it would be ironic if he did now.

  34. Che: I really hope there is a twist with the golden company turning on Cersei, because I don’t have the stomach for another battle endangering my favourites.

    Although I’m not so sure the “favorites” are safe, the Golden Company may be tempted to shift allegiance when they see a dragon/Targ. Also, Cersei may not be so safe inside KL if all the people decide they don’t want to be used as cover. I expect Arya and the Hound to have a bloody heyday.

  35. I know how shallow my comment will be among all the big thoughts you all are posting, but… darn, does that Harry Strickland look good! :p

  36. Laura,

    If only the site you mention had done a better job gatekeeping all those false fans who are too dumb for enjoying things you do not.

    *sigh*

  37. Don’t mean to be nitpicking but Lena’s name is in bold and there’s a lot going on in it, ha. Excited for things to go down on Sunday!

  38. Laura,

    For my money, Arya/Gendry was fan service. But Jaime and Brienne was something that is there and will happen in the books.

    I guess I’m still failing to see what was so bad about the last episode that would make someone lose interest in the ending. The ending is going to be the same as the books. That alone has me interested, because most likely I’ll never get to read it in the books.

  39. Dany’s looking like her father, with her unkempt hair.

    I haven’t been a huge Dany fan ever since Season 4. I definitely think she’s made severe errors in judgement, and would probably be a mediocre ruler at best. She’s also come off excessively pompous and entitled at various points in time.

    With all that said, and despite my critical attitude towards her, I feel really bad for what she’s going through.

    Most of her errors in judgement were in Essos. Since she’s come to Westeros, she’s been mostly restrained. Her only questionable decision was the burning of the Tarlys.

    Beyond that, she’s done everything that Tyrion, Varys, and Jon have asked/advised her to do, and she’s paid the price for it.

    Most of her armies gone, as well as two dragons and her two closest friends. It’s extremely tragic to see a once inspiring and confident young woman falling into despair and potential madness.

    Even though I’m convinced she’s doomed, I really hope she gets one last victory. I’ve never been more against Cersei than I am now.

    I hope Dany will still be able to go out with a strong and heroic legacy overall. She’s extremely flawed, but she doesn’t deserve for her whole life to come crumbling down on her.

  40. Che,

    According to Luka’s guess, the hooded figure is Jaime riding into KL. And it’s a very good guess.

  41. Goochbott,

    Goochbott:
    “The fact that Dany’s hair is down is telling. It’s a classic sign of declining mental health, at least in the world of film and TV.”

    Missandei is not there to braid her hair. I enjoy that level of detail in this scene.

  42. Making the 8: What I’m curious about is the Euron photo. The obvious answer to what he’s looking up at would be Drogon. But he is not standing behind his ballista like he would be if Drogon was bearing down on him. Or is the dragon just out of range?

    Dragon armour.

    That’s my number one prediction for this episode.

    Dragon armour.

    I mean, if there’s one thing Dany should have had on her mind for a while…

    Tyrion does look like he just trod on a landmine, doesn’t he?

  43. What I’d like to see in this episode is Dnerys NOT emotionally abusing Jon like Viserys used to do, just because he is a political threat to her. That bedroom scene is disturbing enough.

    What can we expect? Dnerys just lost Jorah, Rhaegal and Missandei in a very short time. She’s a lone wolf. The last shot in ep4 showed her slowly losing her mind and embracing her Targ nature. The Red Keep will burn.

    We saw Jon and Varys-Tyrion going on their own secret little rebellion. I want to see scheming.
    Sansa was SO right for telling Tyrion. The more people know about Jon, the less likely it is that Dany just kills Jon in a quiet corner.

    I wonder if we’ll get to see Winterfell this episode.

  44. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I agree with you

    I also could have done without the Jamie Brienne Arya Gendry Stuff but it didn’t bother me to the extent that it erases 8 years of amazing television

  45. Sean C.,

    Yes, LOL: D&D have one strategy – march your armies outside the gates. I wonder, how they manage to control this impulse during the Battle for the Caste Black.

  46. ramses: Missandei is not there to braid her hair

    Lol. That is disturbingly harsh…and worth an evil snicker. Missandei kept Dany intact in more ways than one.

  47. Emily: Dragon armour.

    That’s my number one prediction for this episode.

    Dragon armour.

    I mean, if there’s one thing Dany should have had on her mind for a while…

    Tyrion does look like he just trod on a landmine, doesn’t he?

    I was thinking the same thing and it’s about damn time someone wised up and put some freaking armor on Drogon. I don’t know what else Euron could be looking at in the sky that would freak him out as much as he is in the episode 5 teaser.

    The dragons are surprisingly easy to kill without armor. If Drogon is going to do any damage at all then he’s got to be armored in some way.

  48. ramses,

    That’s what I was thinking! I believe there were scenes in seasons 4 or 5 of them doing eachother’s hair….. 🙁

  49. Laura: That kind of talk will get you laughed out of here unfortunately. The site that used to house all the fans who could intelligently speak about the show, good and bad, has given way to a bunch of fangirls who are super stoked that Brienne and Jaime finally DID IT and that Gendry proposed to Arya, eff any common sense.

    One could argue that it is not disappointment that would get you laughed out of here, rather the large generalisation that we are all a bunch of fan girls because we are enjoying the last season…….now that’s what will get you laughed out of here.

  50. krupke,

    Yea that’s why I think the director knew to have her braids undone in this scene. Not necessarily a sign of Daenerys going mad just a continuity detail someone thought to include.

  51. Laura,

    I don’t think people have a problem with others having their own opinion if in fact it is stated as an opinion and not proclaim as the absolute truth. I think in your first reaction, if I remember correctly, you said something like, ‘we all agree right, this was the worst’. Which of course rub some people the wrong way because you were projecting your feelings onto others. Some people really loved the episode. An opinion on the quality of something it is just that an opinion. Me or you believing that an episode was like the worst ever or the best ever doesn’t make it so. It really doesn’t. And there is also the fact that some people (don’t mean you) tend to be so dramatic in the way they come to denigrate or exalt an episode that sometimes is hard to take them seriously.

  52. I was never a fan of Daenerys, but the turn the plot seems to be taking is so unfair.

  53. Dee Stark: People will cry next week at how quickly they built dragon armour.

    Especially since we’ve been hoping for something like that for a few years now… 😉

    Seriously though, I doubt armor would deflect those crazy huge physics-defying scorpions!

  54. Hey, guys! Just a question:there is a very very short scene in the trailer below( which was released last month) with Daenerys and Jon in a setting which appears to be the fireplace at Dragonstone. Daenerys is wearing her hair fully braided. I believe according to the Dothraki tradition the braids symbolize battles won. I doubt this scene happened yet but I have yet to watch the full ep 4. Could it we a postwar scene(ep 5 or 6) or am I mistaken? Thanks!
    https://youtu.be/kuLUyJdRvSU

  55. I could have sworn Harry Strickland was a blond in the premiere, not a brunette.

    I assume the picture of Daenerys is one of (if not the) her first scenes, having the space to be able to just let go (noticeable in her minimally styled hair) and take in what’s just happened. Not sure if Tyrion is the best person for her to be around…

    Varys doesn’t waste any time, does he? Damn. Looks like they might have arrived at Dragonstone? I think we can all guess the kinds of things he’s whispering in Aejon’s ear… and right before his reunion with Daenerys too. Yikes.

  56. Euron may be looking at Sansa doing a Peter Pan right off a cliff.

    No way Cersei surrenders if things go bad. She’ll drink poison like she almost did in the battle of the blackwater.

    I like the idea of Dany’s army sneaking into KL. Varys knows the escape tunnels. Davos knows the smugglers routes.

    I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Yara, but I just don’t know how many men or ships she could have left.

    I also think Arya will be able to sneak in to KL. I seem to remember her chasing cats through the tunnels.

    If Sansa sends the KotV down to KL just as Jon/Dany are losing, I’ll vomit.

  57. serum,

    Why they didn’t pull on the Howland Reed thread is beyond me. Meera went home “to be with my family when they come”, and Howland Reed is the only living witness to Jon’s birth. I would have much rather seen Winterfell fall and the whole North fall back to to the Neck and have the Reed ambush the dead as they tried to push through. Reed is the only character who can add some kind of unbiased view of Jon v Dany (although he cannot vouch for the marriage). Anyway, it’s a lost opportunity.

  58. My , my.. they’re really pulling out all the stops to convince us that Dany is unravelling. Nice try, HBO- not falling for it.

    Jon is arriving at DS.. that’s the same beach near Ballintoy where GW etc washed up on last week- the islands in the background are the same.

    Erm… where did all those unsullied come from??

  59. Netheb,

    Really? Jon should break? And what’s then? Go north and sit there, untill Cersei comes for him?
    Dany is right: they must attack and do it hard, if they want to win.

  60. Johnny Utah:
    If Sansa sends the KotV down to KL just as Jon/Dany are losing, I’ll vomit.

    The KotV went with Jon.

    Inga,

    Sansa was right, if they had rested maybe things would be better. They could also have let Cersei’s armies come to them. Now they’re vulnerable in that open field

    Sou:
    I was never a fan of Daenerys, but the turn the plot seems to be taking is so unfair.

    We could’ve seen it coming, but many people decided to turn a blind eye on it.
    Dnerys does have a very black and white way of seeing the world when she feels justified. She always had a tendency for harsh justice. She resorts to threats to try to keep people in line and berates her advisors in public.
    She’s not a ruler, remember? She could have built a different, more happy life but her thirst for the IT is her downfall.

  61. TormundsWoman:
    Tyrion looks positively shocked. I still believe he’ll do the right thing and support Dany through everything!

    How is that necessarily the right thing?

  62. NoobTakestheBlack:
    serum,

    Why they didn’t pull on the Howland Reed thread is beyond me.Meera went home “to be with my family when they come”, and Howland Reed is the only living witness to Jon’s birth.I would have much rather seen Winterfell fall and the whole North fall back to to the Neck and have the Reed ambush the dead as they tried to push through.Reed is the only character who can add some kind of unbiased view of Jon v Dany (although he cannot vouch for the marriage).Anyway, it’s a lost opportunity.

    It seems to me that at this point everyone is taking the Aegon news as fact. Dany only questioned it for a minute, but by episode 4 she knew it was true. Also Tyrion and Varys don’t seem to be doubting it.

  63. Kodi: ramses:
    Goochbott,

    Missandei is not there to braid her hair. I enjoy that level of detail in this scene.

    She’s too busy having a de-cappuccino

    NO.

    Go to your room, Kodi, and think about what you’ve done.

  64. NoobTakestheBlack,

    JSchmeh,

    I think the show set up Bran as the be all end all for factual info in order expedite the sharing of Jon’s parentage.
    I thought there might be more to the off screen conversation between Tyrion and Bran in episode 2 but I think not.
    It was a way to explain Tyrion readily accepting the truth to Jon’s identity when Sansa told him.
    In the books I expect the Reed’s to come back into the story.

  65. Young Dragon,
    Sean C.,

    I would find that strange given how long the episode is. We wouldn’t check in with Sansa, Brienne or Bran that whole time? I’m wondering if they will end up going to KL for some reason (well, maybe not Bran). It would just be odd for Sansa and Brienne to sit out the climax of the story.

  66. ramses,

    I was hoping for a follow up to Tyrion and Bran’s conversation by the fire as well. But I guess we’re done with Bran now? I know this ep isn’t WF focused, so if we haven’t gotten it now, we most likely won’t.

  67. The photos of Jon/Davos and Jon/Davos/Tyrion are not from the same shot. In the one of Jon just with Davos, Big D is on his right and Northmen are standing behind them Then in the one where Tyrion joins, Davos is now on Jon’s left and they are standing behind their army. The look on Jon’s and Davos’ face makes me think that this is later (Northmen are also looking kind of sooty), maybe after some fighting and something shocking is going down. Davos looks a bit like he did when Mel would do something alarming, and Jon looks kind of angry.

    I also wondering about that shot with Jon and Varys on the beach. There is no reason for Jon to go to Dragonstone before the battle – the plan was for him to travel overland and take the army to KL. Even if we could come up with a reason (ie: please come talk Dany off the edge), how would he even get to Dragonstone from KL with no access to the harbor? I agree, too, that the rocks don’t look like other Dragonstone scenes we’ve seen before. I’m wondering if it’s a beach closer to KL, perhaps the one Davos used to get Tyrion into the city. Anyway, all of this is to say that I think this is going to be something we see towards the end of the episode.

    As for the dark figure sneaking in past the GC. My money is on Arya doing a faceless man trick, masquerading as a GC soldier bringing in a “prisoner.” Or Arya, who knows how to get into/out of the Red Keep through the tunnels will lead the Hound in. Either way, I think those two are sneaking in and are going to cause some damage from the inside.

    And this is just wishful thinking, but I would love it if Euron’s face is a response to Arya leaping onto him – NK2.0. For reasons I can’t explain, I really, really want to see Arya take down Euron.

  68. Ralu,

    No, the scene with Dany and Jon in Drogonstone hasn’t happened yet. Good catch about her fully braided hair: they scream of victory as much as Euron’s confusion in the promo trailer.

  69. To me, Dany looks pregnant.
    Maybe I need glasses… It’s the same spot where she was not discussing a successor with Tyrion though.

  70. Laura: That kind of talk will get you laughed out of here unfortunately.

    Not necessarily, you’re free to think that as far as I’m concerned. But of course if you criticize you’re also inciting debate and your opinion might be criticized too

    Inga: I don’t buy this “Dany the Mad Queen” crap

    “I will take what’s mine with FIRE AND BLOOD!”

    “When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and BURN CITIES TO THE GROUND!”

    “I will crucify the masters, set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers and RETURN THEIR CITIES TO THE DIRT”

    Yes, where ever could anyone have possibly gotten that ridiculous idea?

    Nick20: Most of her errors in judgement were in Essos. Since she’s come to Westeros, she’s been mostly restrained. Her only questionable decision was the burning of the Tarlys.

    Beyond that, she’s done everything that Tyrion, Varys, and Jon have asked/advised her to do, and she’s paid the price for it.

    Most of her armies gone, as well as two dragons and her two closest friends. It’s extremely tragic to see a once inspiring and confident young woman falling into despair and potential madness.

    That’s a fair point, but all depends on what she does next. She made it clear last episode that she was going to get Cercei and the throne NO MATTER WHAT.

    And that was BEFORE losing Reagal and Missandei. So, yeah… There’s that.

  71. So I was just watching the entire preview vid at quarter speed since it was referred to above. At 17-18 seconds there’s a shot with a bell tower and wall near the water where ships are anchored before it switches to the shot of Euron. I’m assuming that first shot is looking out at Blackwater Bay, probably in the same scene as the Euron shot, but I don’t recall seeing a shot of that bell tower (nor wall) in a shot before. For a second I was hoping it was White Harbor & The Bite because of the light stone color. Wishful thinking no doubt.

  72. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Laura,
    For my money, Arya/Gendry was fan service. But Jaime and Brienne was something that is there and will happen in the books.

    Arya and Gendry are very strongly hinted at in the books as well, even more so than it was in the show. Furthermore, George has said that they will meet up again in the books and that he intends to explore that relationship further. Whether it plays out exactly like it did in the show is anyone’s guess, although one important factor is the age difference between book!Arya and show!Arya. Then again, who knows..

    In any case, I’ve really grown to dislike the term fan-service. It’s thrown around far too liberally. It made complete sense that Arya and Gendry got together the way they did given their previous history and the current circumstances.

  73. Goochbott:
    The fact that Dany’s hair is down is telling. It’s a classic sign of declining mental health, at least in the world of film and TV.

    Dothraki cut their breads when losing a battle. Dany lost a battle (Against euron) and lost her dragon and Missandei in the process. So her braids need to go.

  74. BURN THEM ALL!! who cares if she goes mad queen it is justified just do it Danny!

  75. Che:

    I really hope there is a twist with the golden company turning on Cersei, because I don’t have the stomach for another battle endangering my favourites.

    I am right there with you. More nervous for this episode than I was for the last 4 combined. Although it’s not about my favorites per se. That shot of troops facing each other has me sick to my stomach; the Unsullied and northern troops facing more carnage, and at a complete disadvantage with the walls.
    Coming into the season I had a theory that the Iron Bank would pull the strings (in part because of something Peter D. said about “modern” themes), and turn the tables on Cersei in favor of team save-the-realm. But at this point that might be too much of a twist?

  76. Inga:
    Dany is right: they must attack and do it hard, if they want to win.

    Bad idea? Look where they are now.

    Iul:
    To me, Dany looks pregnant.
    Maybe I need glasses… It’s the same spot where she was not discussing a successor with Tyrion though.

    Ugh… no. That boatbaby has sunk to the bottom of the narrow sea.

    Enharmony1625:
    We wouldn’t check in with Sansa, Brienne or Bran that whole time? I’m wondering if they will end up going to KL for some reason (well, maybe not Bran). It would just be odd for Sansa and Brienne to sit out the climax of the story.

    I agree. I have a hard time imaging Sansa doing nothing until the end of the season, not when they’ve set up a Sansa/Dnerys conflict. I’m not a big fan of the kidnapping theory because I like to see her in charge of her own life, and not weak and submissive. But I guess it’s be nice if she faced Cersei one last time and prevail

  77. Netheb,

    I don’t think they are vulnerable. I think they have a plan. Euron’s facial expression in the promo is clearly hinting that things are taking an unexpected turn and that’s a very good sign.

    As for resting, they have rested. Northern forces has as much rest, as Danys own forces.

  78. Dany looking sad, Tyrion shocked. I think the episode could go many ways, my thoughts:
    – Dany gave up her throne (which I have a second though later that connects to this)
    – She talks about killing Cersei, in which Tyrion stated the baby is innocent. Dany says it doesn’t matter Cersei has to be killed.
    – My personal favorite: Dany is lost, lost her will to live, or more to fight. She will give the throne to Jon but it will not be in a direct way. What if Dany will sacrafice herself, throw herself in the lions den, and stated something to Jon: Finish what I’ve started. (I still hope we see dany as the hero in the end)

  79. Such a meme worthy look on Tyrion’s face.

    I imagine it was preceded by Tyrion arguing for compassionate leadership from Dany.

    At which point Dany professes to “Choose Violence”.

    Break the wheel? Get rid of that throne already, its evil.

  80. Inga,

    Oh that’s just the elephants. Amazon came true, they are being delivered, right on Euron’s lap.

  81. kevin1989: Dothraki cut their breads when losing a battle. Dany lost a battle (Against euron) and lost her dragon and Missandei in the process. So her braids need to go.

    She doesn’t have to follow their tradition.

  82. Well, Euron isn’t wearing armor. He’s carrying a wine flask, so this isn’t in battle or even preparation for one. The ballistae are front-mounted, so he’s looking to starboard. The Red Keep is behind him, so he’s looking out onto the Blackwater Bay…seemingly surprised.

  83. kevin1989:
    Dany gave up her throne

    You need to start paying attention to what Dnerys is 😉

    Inga:
    I don’t think they are vulnerable. I think they have a plan. Euron’s facial expression in the promo is clearly hinting that things are taking an unexpected turn and that’s a very good sign. As for resting, they have rested. Northern forces has as much rest, as Danys own forces.

    They have rested you say, what do you know about it? Lol it was said last episode that the men they have left are exhausted.

    I do hope they have a plan, yes. I also hope Dnerys will not ruin it; I suspect grief makes her unstable. We already know that she’ll burn the Red Keep, and it’s definitely not part of the plan, right?

  84. Okay, I’m gonna get really nit picky here, but didn’t Tyrion say last week that Jon wasn’t going to arrive with his troops for two weeks?

    If they’re all on foot, how in 7 hells did Jon’s army get there so quickly? It’d take them months to travel 1500 miles from WF, possibly longer in winter. Cersei will be ready to pop by now.. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤔

  85. kevin1989,

    I think it is too late for Dany to give up the throne, unless she does it after Cersei is done with. I think Dany at this point looks around, sees the devastation around her and feels that it would all have been for nothing if she doesn’t take the throne. The bittersweet ending for Dany would be if she conquers the throne (her life long goal) and then sits on it as the Queen of Ashes, never resting because she knows sooner or later someone, anyone, will come for it.

  86. valerie kirby:
    BURN THEM ALL!! who cares if she goes mad queen it is justified just do it Danny!

    Is it justified? How?

    Burn Cercei and Euron? Sure, absolutely justified.

    Burn their armies? Well, it is war, so why not?

    Burn them all? Including all of the citizens of Kings Landing? Sorry, but no. Not justified.

    #teamVarys

  87. Eddard,

    Same here. I hate how character arcs are being destroyed at the last moment. After literally years of Dany acquiring power and learning to be a good ruler, it’s like she has to suddenly morph into “the crazy Targaryen.” I hate this turn of events so much. What a waste of a good story.

  88. King in the North East,

    Words are wind. Dany has a temper of a dragon – true; however, when it comes to taking cities, she has proved herself as the best strategist on the show. And she’s not gonna go where Cersei is leading her: she knows she has to beat Cersei on the moral grounds as much, as on military grounds (and I bet she will).

  89. Inga,

    Inga:
    King in the North East,

    “Words are wind. Dany has a temper of a dragon – true; however, when it comes to taking cities, she has proved herself as the best strategist on the show. And she’s not gonna go where Cersei is leading her: she knows she has to beat Cersei on the moral grounds as much, as on military grounds (and I bet she will).”

    I hope this is the case. We see Daeny utilize the lessons she learned while conquering/ ruling various cities in Essos.

    I just made the connection between Varys and varies…..😆
    Only took 8 seasons, 5 books, and years of thoughtful contemplation.

  90. King in the North East,

    Thank you lol. Same people need to get a grip

    Apollo:
    Didn’t Tyrion say last week that Jon wasn’t going to arrive with his troops for two weeks? If they’re all on foot, how in 7 hells did Jon’s army get there so quickly?

    The battle is probably not start right away. We’ll get to see some scheming from Varys I believe 😀

  91. Inga:
    Dany has a temper of a dragon – true; however, when it comes to taking cities, she has proved herself as the best strategist on the show.

    Her strategy was to just dracarys everyone lol. Only Drogon is left now and he’s vulnerable. Dany is clearly not in her right mind now. Perhaps her advisors and Jon will finally make her see reason and not burn the city, but I doubt it ..

  92. I’m disappointed Sansa won’t be allowed a confrontation scene with Cersei, her primary antagonist. I’ve been looking forward to that since Sansa was her hostage!

    #freeellaria

  93. I think Jon and Varys are earning some beer money by smuggling fermented crab for the Bubba Davos Crab Company.

  94. Apollo:
    Okay, I’m gonna get really nit picky here, but didn’t Tyrion say last week that Jon wasn’t going to arrive with his troops for two weeks?

    If they’re all on foot, how in 7 hells did Jon’s army get there so quickly? It’d take them months to travel 1500 miles from WF, possibly longer in winter. Cersei will be ready to pop by now.. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤔

    Hmmmm…..that is actually a good point. Weren’t the Dothraki going to take 2 weeks to get to WInterfell if they “rode hard up the King’s Road”? It’s a little silly to think battle-weary troops can march the same distance in the same time.

    Unless it took quite a long time to sail……for some reason.

  95. Che,

    That’s why I was wondering whether Jon got a message about what had happened, somehow, and rode ahead and managed to get a ship to Dragonstone. (Not completely logical, I know.)

    I feel Dany will feel lost for a while but her thirst for vengence may make her more ruthless than ever.

    I fear for Varys if she finds out about his plotting. She will ceratinly be like ‘you know nothing Jon Snow’ if she finds out the news has leaked.

  96. For those who followed filming news/spoilers:

    I’d almost forgotten that after most cast members had finished shooting, they spent weeks filming Kings Landing burning – those gates we’ve seen already, a dome and burnt streets. I had hoped that Dany wouldn’t go on a burning rampage through the city, needlessly killing thousands of civilians, but now I’m not so sure. Unless they give a warning to evacuate parts of the city, or observe that parts of it are evacuated, burning the city is a terrible move.
  97. Netheb,

    How do we know that Dany will burn the Red Keep? She saw a vision? That’s what it was: a vision. Reality may be rather different. The very least, we don’t see any snow in KL.

  98. Inga:
    King in the North East,

    Words are wind. Dany has a temper of a dragon – true; however, when it comes to taking cities, she has proved herself as the best strategist on the show. And she’s not gonna go where Cersei is leading her: she knows she has to beat Cersei on the moral grounds as much, as on military grounds (and I bet she will).

    Did you miss all of times where her advisors had to stop her from doing something horrible?

    Did you miss the time where she crucified a ton of people without even bothering to find out if they were guilty of the crime she punished them for?

    Did you miss the part where she subsequently had someone beheaded for doing to one man what she had recently done to thousands?

    Did you miss the part where she burned someone alive to prove a point?

    Yeah, she may not have yet burned a city, but her actions so far don’t really sound like those of a person who wouldn’t do that.

    And yes, actions beat words. But psychologically speaking, someone who’s regularly heard talking about committing murder/rape, is statistically much more likely to eventually follow through with those things.

    Did you never think about what she might do if there’s no one left to hold her back?

  99. King in the North East: Is it justified? How?

    Burn Cercei and Euron? Sure, absolutely justified.

    Burn their armies? Well, it is war, so why not?

    Burn them all? Including all of the citizens of Kings Landing? Sorry, but no. Not justified.

    #teamVarys

    It’s kinda justified, the common folk all spat on cercie in the s5 finale, she caused serious damage to those same common folk who were in close proximity to the sept before she blew it up, and now they’re acting like she’s their saviour by believing that she has their best interests at heart, these peasants don’t know what’s good for them and even less so for the realm. Burn them all, they won’t be missed.

  100. Che,

    Exactly! Another LF jet pack! Honestly, I love this show but the plot holes are getting ridiculous. I knew the shortened seasons would have an impact on the story.

  101. Maybe Cersei blows the city to high hell and deflects blame to Daeny 🤷‍♀️

  102. Apollo,

    Let’s assume they were riding; they just left their horses behind as they are planning to storm the gate.

  103. Inga,

    Netheb: Her strategy was to just dracarys everyone lol.

    Pretty much. I don’t seem to recall any particalar instance of any stratagy being HER idea, rather than someone else’s with her just executing it.

    Basically any time things get rough:

    Dany: “I will take my dragons and burn everyone and everything to the ground!!!!!!!”

    Current advisor: “Yes, well, can we maybe discuss alternative options?”

    Dany: “No, they will all die feeling my wrath!!!!!!!!!”

    Current advisor: “Dany, killing all people is bad. Very bad. Very very bad. Please reconsider”

    Dany: “ugh… Fine… What’s your plan?”

    Some strategist.

  104. Inga,

    I thought that snow on Kingslanding and the throne was a symbol for one Jon Snow? Like Drago and Rhaego beyond the Wall was a symbol for Dany finding family up North only to turn her back on them.

  105. Danny,

    Right. If Dany is to abdicate in Jon’s favor, I would prefer her to do that from the position of strength. Exposure of weekness in any form may send shockwaves to the Bay of Dragons and lead to restauration of slavery and other problems.

  106. Apollo,

    That’s not a plot hole. We don’t know how fast it really took them to get to King’s Landing, only that it’s taking them two weeks longer than the ships. We don’t even know for sure they are unmounted.

  107. Dane ironfoot: It’s kinda justified, the common folk all spat on cercie in the s5 finale.

    All of them? A million people? Must have been a long walk of shame. Should have taken months.

    Dane ironfoot: she caused serious damage to those same common folk who were in close proximity to the sept before she blew it up, and now they’re acting like she’s their saviour by believing that she has their best interests at heart.

    Do they know she blew up the Sept? Does anyone know exactly who’s responsible (aside from the ones involved)?

    How are they acting like she’s their savior? I’ve yet to see any scene with the common folk enthusiastically praising her?

    Even so, in any population, there will be different opinions. There will be those that might support her and those that won’t.

    There will also be children in the population (say about 100 000 kids under twelve)

    Dane ironfoot: Burn them all, they won’t be missed.

    So you’re fine with her burning 100 000 children alive (after she made a point about how killing children is wrong)?

  108. Netheb,

    When did Dany was burning everyone indistinctively? In Astapor her command was “Kill the masters, BUT spare the children.”

  109. Tryptych:
    Euron should look worried if Yara Greyjoy is returning with a fleet of ships.

    Considering what the scorpians did to Danny’s ships I don’t thing Yara’s fleet would concern him at all.

  110. Inga,

    So there is a strong chance this scene will happen after the Last War, meaning both Jon and Daenerys survive, and she isn’t slipping into madness! The scene could also be happening before the last battle starts, but it would not justify the braids, she looks totally different in the pictures from the article above. If the film editors let a clue like this slip, it could be a huge spoiler.
    Inga,

  111. ramses,

    Sorry, I don’t buy, that it was Missandei’s job, to do Dany’s hair, Missandei wasn’t a servant. A hairdo like Dany normally wears will take hours and at mindst two stylist. Believe me, my hair is as long that I can sit on it.

  112. Che,

    The interesting thing that the set photos were clearly showing the city gate blown from within, and that’s bad news to the Golden Company, considering how they are positioned. Moreover, it’s a hint that Dany will be using dragonfre reasonably, rather than just raining it from atop.
  113. King in the North East: All of them? A million people? Must have been a long walk of shame. Should have taken months.

    Do they know she blew up the Sept? Does anyone know exactly who’s responsible (aside from the ones involved)?

    How are they acting like she’s their savior? I’ve yet to see any scene with the common folk enthusiastically praising her?

    Even so, in any population, there will be different opinions. There will be those that might support her and those that won’t.

    There will also be children in the population (say about 100 000 kids under twelve)

    So you’re fine with her burning 100 000 children alive (after she made a point about how killing children is wrong)?

    Oh dear…….someone took me literally 🙄😔……it’s a fictional show, none of those people, babies included, are real, none of the characters, are real, none of those fire breathing WMDs, are real, I wouldn’t look too far into a comment about a fictional universe and try to apply real world logic to something clearly meant in jest, about something that is a work of fiction, just a small bit of advice going forward.

  114. Dane ironfoot: now they’re acting like she’s their saviour by believing that she has their best interests at heart, these peasants don’t know what’s good for them and even less so for the realm. Burn them all, they won’t be missed.

    That’s a despicable comment, you realise that right. The common folk doesn’t give a shit about who sits on the IT, they just want to live in peace and have enough to eat and feed their children.
    How would you feel if it was the head of government of your own country who said that you and your fellow citizens “don’t know what’s good for them and even less so for the country”?

    Inga: If Dany is to abdicate in Jon’s favor, I would prefer her to do that from the position of strength.

    Especially after ep4, it’s never gonna happen. With the way he’s been behaving, Jon hasn’t really given her much reason to choose him over her dream job. That’s her dream and all she’s fought for in her life, it’s just not gonna happen.

  115. Dane ironfoot,

    I personally think it’s a misdirect and someone sues for peace after a Dany event.

    Those photos in earlier articles way back showed jon meet Cersei in KL.

  116. King in the North East,

    Did you miss the time where she crucified a ton of people without even bothering to find out if they were guilty of the crime she punished them for?

    She’d just seen the slaves they crucified and used as mile markers on her march to Mereen. She didn’t tell her men to gather civilians for punishment. She told them to gather the slave masters. She learned later that there were extenuating circumstances for some of the masters (Hizdahr Loraq’s dad apparently protested using the slave children as mile markers, but didn’t prevent it) and acted accordingly.

    Did you miss the part where she subsequently had someone beheaded for doing to one man what she had recently done to thousands?

    She had Mossador beheaded after advisement from Baristan Selmy. She listened to her advisor.

    Did you miss the part where she burned someone alive to prove a point?

    She burned a slavemaster after Baristan and her forces were attacked by Sons of the Harpy. She knew they abetting insurgency in Mereen. You can make the argument that no one should have that much power, but she’s not the only protagonist in the series to wield power bluntly and brutally. Nor is she the worst example of a character in the series doing that.

    Yeah, she may not have yet burned a city, but her actions so far don’t really sound like those of a person who wouldn’t do that.

    She listened to and followed the advice of her advisors time and again and now Cersei has not only strengthened her position in KL, but she’s gotten away with abandoning the North to fight the dead. Furthermore, Dany has lost most of her forces to tactical advice that didn’t pan out as well as to fighting the AotD for people who openly disdained her and her troops. I also think it’s significant that she didn’t listen to Tyrion when she decided to go North of the Wall and rescue Jon et al. There’s two episodes left, and I’m quite sure things will end badly for her, but in the aftermath I also think there will questions as to how sound the advice she received was when she first got to Westeros

  117. Netheb: That’s a despicable comment, you realise that right. The common folk doesn’t give a shit about who sits on the IT, they just want to live in peace and have enough to eat and feed their children.
    How would you feel if it was the head of government of your own country who said that you and your fellow citizens “don’t know what’s good for them and even less so for the country”?

    🤣👌 11/10 for applying real world logic to a fictional universe. It’s a comment made in jest, you should probably just take a seat if you’re this uptight. As for trying to make me feel bad. I don’t lol, if I’d made such a comment about something that wasn’t a work of fiction, well I just wouldn’t, but as it happens, this is not real. I’m not quite sure you’re fully aware of that fact, but hey ho, I’d advise not watching tv if you take things so literally, or better yet, avoid the internet.

  118. Netheb: That’s a despicable comment, you realise that right. The common folk doesn’t give a shit about who sits on the IT, they just want to live in peace and have enough to eat and feed their children.
    How would you feel if it was the head of government of your own country who said that you and your fellow citizens “don’t know what’s good for them and even less so for the country”?

    Exactly. I was pretty harsh on someone else making a similar statement in the open chat for last episode, so I’m being less direct, but I agree. It is a despicable thing to say.

    Dane ironfoot: it’s a fictional show, none of those people, babies included, are real, none of the characters, are real, none of those fire breathing WMDs, are real, I wouldn’t look too far into a comment about a fictional universe and try to apply real world logic to something clearly meant in jest, about something that is a work of fiction, just a small bit of advice going forward.

    No, you were making a value judgement about what’s justified in that situation. That the situation is fictional doesn’t matter here.

    You clearly claimed and defended that she was JUSTIFIED in burning everyone. There’s nothing there at all to indicate that you spoke in jest.

  119. Clob: She doesn’t have to follow their tradition.

    The whole point of her braids is that she follow that tradition. That’s why it went bigger every year.

    I think it’s sentimental for Dany. I love it.

    Raenarys,

    As for dothraki it counts as a loss. Or maybe it’s more because of the loss of Missandei. I personally hope it’s not after the big battle with Cersei that she does this.

    She did not lose the war, but that battle she lost. (strangely she didn’t cut her hair with the loses last year)

    Netheb,

    I’m not saying it’s likely that that’s going to happen, I only stated it’s a possibility that could be the meaning behind the pics. You never know with GoT.

    Danny,

    True, but it is possible that after she wins of Cersei, she will feel empty and that the Iron throne wasn’t worth it. (Which it isn’t she would give it up if it means Missandei will live again).

    I think she will not give it up but who knows. It’s not the first time D&D lead us on a wrong track.

  120. King in the North East: Exactly. I was pretty harsh on someone else making a similar statement in the open chat for last episode, so I’m being less direct, but I agree. It is a despicable thing to say.

    No, you were making a value judgement about what’s justified in that situation. That the situation is fictional doesn’t matter here.

    You clearly claimed and defended that she was JUSTIFIED in burning everyone. There’s nothing there at all to indicate that you spoke in jest.

    And you are the “clever” sausage that took that wayyy too literally, again, that’s your problem, not mine, if you think that you kicking up a b!tchfit is going to make me retract any part of that statement, I’m affraid you’re barking up the wrong tree lol. I made a comment, about a bunch of fictional people, oh shame on me, I shall taketh mine own life, for shame…….🤣….good lord, you need a hobby.

  121. I see a woman that was ready to die for revenge, but now suddenly and unexpected has a new more important responsibility, she is pregnant. Dany going mad queen is a trap.
    Did anyone notice Eurons cold breath just before he looks shocked? To me it looks like CGI, so on purpose. But it’s maybe just cold.

  122. cos alpha,

    cos alpha:
    ramses,

    “Sorry, I don’t buy, that it was Missandei’s job, to do Dany’s hair, Missandei wasn’t a servant. A hairdo like Dany normally wears will take hours and at mindst two stylist. Believe me, my hair is as long that I can sit on it.”

    You don’t have to “buy” it. Watch it.

  123. Inga,

    I have to say Tywin was the best Military/strategist of the show.

    As for Dany winning, depends on what winning is. Cersei is not stupid. There’s a reason why she let Dany live at the end of episode 4. She could have easily killed her there with those scorpions. Cersei wants to destroy dany mentally like she did with Ellaria. She will take everything from her which she did only drogon and Greyworm left and Jon.
    What she want is that Dany either give up, let herself being imprisoned and torture her with her defeat. Or let Dany win in a fashion she could never be the queen she wants too be, the queen of the people. Cersei will make sure if Dany win the people will hate her.
    There’s a reason why cersei gave the people their speech, come inside and I protect you from the dragon queen. And once Dany win, the people will revolt.

    And don’t forget the spider with his plans.

  124. Dane ironfoot,

    The thing is, if you don’t apply any logics to your predictions you can prepare to be disappointed 😀

    Frank:
    I see a woman that was ready to die for revenge, but now suddenly and unexpected has a new more important responsibility, she is pregnant. Dany going mad queen is a trap.

    If there was ever gonna be a boatbaby, we would know by now?

  125. fdr,

    I know what the Dothraki customs are, but she hasn’t been losing braids while incurring battle or strategic defeats.

  126. krupke: She learned later that there were extenuating circumstances for some of the masters

    Oh, so she killed innocents but it’s fine because she found out they were innocent after she had them killed.

    My mistake.

    krupke: She had Mossador beheaded after advisement from Baristan Selmy. She listened to her advisor.

    Yes, but the point is she did the exact same thing Mossador did, on a much larger scale.

    krupke: She burned a slavemaster after Baristan and her forces were attacked by Sons of the Harpy. She knew they abetting insurgency in Mereen. You can make the argument that no one should have that much power, but she’s not the only protagonist in the series to wield power bluntly and brutally.

    That’s not the argument I’m making. She just executed Mossador for killing someone without due process, yet here she is, again, killing someone without due process.

    krupke: She listened to and followed the advice of her advisors time and again and now Cersei has not only strengthened her position in KL

    True, but that was not my point. Or anywhere near it. It’s about how she acts and how she constantly has to be talked out of doing horrible things.

  127. Frank,

    I honestly thought Dany would be pregnant but it seems a bit late to put that in now. With the speed of the season I can’t see it happening.

  128. Hodors Bastard: Although I’m not so sure the “favorites” are safe, the Golden Company may be tempted to shift allegiance when they see a dragon/Targ

    Hmmm, don’t you think the GC already knows about Targs and dragons? I can’t believe they’d take a contract and sail the sea without knowing who/what they would be fighting.

    I fully expected Jorah would live to at least ep 5. So, like you, I thought the GC would change sides because Jorah, having been with the GC at one time, would change their minds. There was a scene in Mereen, I believe, when Dany said something to Jorah about having been in the GC and he said yes. Sadly, we won’t be seeing Jorah doing that or anything. Sigh. But, to bolster your/my thoughts that somehow the GC will betray Cersei, maybe, because Dany is a Targ, they came already having decided to turn on Cersei. One can only hope.

    I also thought at one time that we weren’t yet done with Daario, and he would somehow come to join Dany’s battle against Cersei, coming as part of the GC, or come with the Second Sons. I have no idea what’s going to happen, but seeing Dany so despondent is sad. Although, the girl does need some time to process her grief and anger.

  129. Che,

    I think Dany took her people to White harbor, which is also a long road. I think she is even slower than Jon because of her company, Tyrion, Varys who aren’t that fast.

    Dane ironfoot,

    Yikes, that’s dictatorship you know, killing everyone who is not in your corner.

  130. ramses,

    If you look at this 2 second scene from the trailer, you will see her hair fully braided and the setting is the fireplace at Dragonstone. Dothraki braid their hair after each battle won, as far as I remember. The photos above might just be red herrings… There will be a turn of events of some sorts. https://youtu.be/kuLUyJdRvSU

  131. Can someone tell me why everyone assumes the GC will turn on Cersei, based on hints in the show? Maybe they simply used a name from the books instead of inventing a new one.

    I hope not, but any chance that the GC wins the ground battle and some of the “good guys” are captured? Episode 6 is also left and I expect it will be bigger/more twisted than episode 5, save for the last 20 minutes where we get the survivors band together. Like Arya going to Storm’s End for a short visit because she doesn’t want to return to Winterfell. So if Cersei falls before E6, what happens in E6? I can’t imagine a dance of the dragons. There will only be Drogon left (then Dany wins) or none (Dany loses) left.

    I’m actually also not so sure anymore Dany will go full “Fire and blood”, it would now be almost too obvious based on the previous episode. They had Jorah repeat this season “but you did forgive”. Maybe only to bring Tyrion for a moment back into her grace, but maybe also to foreshadow the viewer she still has a good side as well. Perhaps I’m back into denial mode 😉

    What if Jon is pushed to be King, but decides he only accepts on the condition he marries with Daenerys and she agrees? (they haven’t given any hints for this, but I like the scenario, the incest notwithstanding, because I don’t really want Dany to fall so deep) If she would lose Drogon and a large part of her troups, she might decide it’s better to rule with two than alone. But maybe I’m trying to see too much sweet and too few bitter.

    More bittersweet would be Dany’s fall and Jon’s rise, but that’s really obvious now. And if Daenerys falls in battle, I would like her to realize that she should have gone for “home” instead of “throne”, before she dies. I think she will still burn Varys though. Not sure if Tyrion would betray Varys or let him try to poison her (in any case this won’t be tried before Cersei is defeated)

    And very bitter for me would be the death of both Jon and Dany. I honestly can’t believe this would happen in the books.

    And maybe Jon dying (after capture by GC, or because of a dance of the dragons) and Dany living could still happen, but then the seven kingdoms will fall apart, with Dany left in KL or Dragonstone without friends except Drogon.

    Reading some other comment while in moderation I like the idea that Drogon roasts the GC from behind (where he can’t be hit, Tyrion should figure that out). In that case the GC can first seem to have the winning side, up till the surprise air force arrive. But because the Red Keep is packed with citizens, they can’t attack that. So then Jaime, the Hound and Arya come into play. Or maybe Jon tries to negotiate first. (Seriously, he should send a messenger. Even Robb sent his mother to Walder Frey.)

    And maybe Jon hugging Gilly is foreshadowing Dany will be pregnant too.

  132. ramses,

    If you look at this 2 second scene from the trailer, you will see her hair completely braided near the fireplace at Dragonstone. Dothraki braid their hair after each battle won, as far as I remember. The photos above might just be red herrings… There will be a turn of events of some sorts. https://youtu.be/kuLUyJdRvSU

  133. Ghostgirl,

    the shot of Cersei with the smirk on her face is probably right before the GC bend the knee to Jon, then they cut back to Cersei and we see that facial expression change to shock

  134. Ralu,

    That’s not true. Dothraki add bells to their hair after each battle won. They cut off their hair after a lose.

  135. kevin1989:
    Che,

    I guess that’s why I’m a euron and cercie fan lol.
    I think Dany took her people to White harbor, which is also a long road. I think she is even slower than Jon because of her company, Tyrion, Varys who aren’t that fast.

    Dane ironfoot,

    Yikes, that’s dictatorship you know, killing everyone who is not in your corner.

  136. ramses,

    You are right, there were bells added in the braids after a victory , but I remember she kept adding braids the past seasons, and the new hairstyles appeared after she succeeded in battle.

  137. kevin1989:
    Che,

    I think Dany took her people to White harbor, which is also a long road. I think she is even slower than Jon because of her company, Tyrion, Varys who aren’t that fast.

    Dane ironfoot,

    Yikes, that’s dictatorship you know, killing everyone who is not in your corner.

    It makes sense now why I’m a euron and cercie fan. Who knew lol.

  138. Dane ironfoot: And you are the “clever” sausage that took that wayyy too literally

    What other way is there for me to interpret what you said? You say I should’t be taking your words literally? Then tell me what other way I could interpret “she’s justified in burning them all”? Where’s the jest? Where’s the sarcasm?

    I adressed your claim at face value. Then, you defended your claim with counterarguments, which is a weird thing to do if you were not being serious about something. Why didn’t you tell me I shouldn’t have taken you literally then?

    It’s only after you ran out of counterarguments that you told me I took you too literally. Funny that.

    But fine: if you weren’t being ‘literal’ then you don’t actually think Dany is justified in burning them all? Right?

  139. Apollo,

    Wasn’t that jetpack already in season 1? We skipped a lot of time in that season, We skipped even 3 months in episode 1×01.

    Dane ironfoot,

    You claim some take your comments too seriously, but you take everyones comment very seriously who dare to give a slight discomfort for Dany, a fictional character. You can defend Dany all you want, and I probably agree with you to a certain degree, but keep in mind that Dany is not real and fictional.

    If we should take your comments about burning a city to the great not too serious you should do the same with people talking about Dany not being a good fit for the throne.

  140. King in the North East: What other way is there for me to interpret what you said? You say I should’t be taking your words literally? Then tell me what other way I could interpret “she’s justified in burning them all”? Where’s the jest? Where’s the sarcasm?

    I adressed your claim at face value. Then, you defended your claim with counterarguments, which is a weird thing to do if you were not being serious about something. Why didn’t you tell me I shouldn’t have taken you literally then?

    It’s only after you ran out of counterarguments that you told me I took you too literally. Funny that.

    But fine: if you weren’t being ‘literal’then you don’t actually think Dany is justified in burning them all? Right?

    Let me just put you in pause mode before you spill your tea……..”it’s only after you ran out of counter arguments that you told me I took you too literally”
    I would advise you take a nice scroll back up the page, you’ll probably find that the very first thing I said to you, was that you took me too literally, care to correct yourself? Or shall you continue your incessant whining? Either way, I don’t quite know what you’re hoping for? Acknowledgement that you are right? A retraction of statment…..none are likely to happen, but one can keep dreaming if that’s what floats your boat….🤣👌.

  141. Laura: The site that used to house all the fans who could intelligently speak about the show, good and bad,

    No dear, don’t you worry, we’re still here.

  142. King in the North East: Did you miss the part where she subsequently had someone beheaded for doing to one man what she had recently done to thousands?

    Did you miss the part where she burned someone alive to prove a point?

    I did miss these parts in the books, because she did neither in ASoIaF. (Book!Mossador of course being Missandei’s brother and member of the Unsullied.)

  143. Dane ironfoot,

    I know you’re joking about Cercei fan, so if you hate Cersei for those wrongdeeds of her, you don’t want Dany becoming Cersei right? What you stated is something Cersei does, burning cities. Dany should not do that. And if she does, she is like Cersei.

  144. kevin1989:
    Apollo,

    Wasn’t that jetpack already in season 1? We skipped a lot of time in that season, We skipped even 3 months in episode 1×01.

    Dane ironfoot,

    You claim some take your comments too seriously, but you take everyones comment very seriously who dare to give a slight discomfort for Dany, a fictional character. You can defend Dany all you want, and I probably agree with you to a certain degree, but keep in mind that Dany is not real and fictional.

    If we should take your comments about burning a city to the great not too serious you should do the same with people talking about Dany not being a good fit for the throne.

    The only comments I’ve taken seriously are the ones claiming I’m either dispiciable or a advocate of child slaughter, either one, deserves to be challenged, otherwise Do provide some backup for that statement about me taking too seriously those who challenge dany, I made one statement about her, the fact that I’m team euron/cercie is what makes your statment slightly comical.

  145. Don’t forget Dorne, they should be able to easily outnumber the GC with their army. In the Books Dorne was the only Part of Westeros Aegon the conqueror could not beat and made peace with them. Also only in Dorne the first and only Dragon was killed, only Book and Show Dragons Must be different. Oh, just remembered, the first Dragon had fire coming out of its wounds, the ice Dragon had ice fire coming out, but Rhaegal had 500 Liter blood coming out of his mouth.

    But in the show Dorne never has been a big thread to anyone, on the other side some they have shown some very impressive fighters.

  146. Looks like we’re not going to get to see Greywater Watch or the Reeds 🙁

  147. Dane ironfoot,

    You might be right there. I could be mistaken and I’ll check.

    But you never answered. It’s a simple question.

    If you’re saying I didn’t interpret your words correctly, fine:

    Then do you think Dany would be justified in burning everyone in Kings Landing?

    Yes or no.

  148. kevin1989,

    Eh, Tywin was crap at reading his children and manage his House. One of them killed him while he was taking a shit. I’d say he lacked strategy where it counted most, so basically he was the crappies of strategists really.

  149. King in the North East:
    Dane ironfoot,

    You might be right there. I could be mistaken and I’ll check.

    But you never answered. It’s a simple question.

    If you’re saying I didn’t interpret your words correctly, fine:

    Then do you think Dany would be justified in burning everyone in Kings Landing?

    Yes or no.

    Well now we’re going all political correct, I’d have to first ascertain the ages of those present at the time of said burning…….

  150. Clob: I did miss these parts in the books, because she did neither in ASoIaF.(Book!Mossador of course being Missandei’s brother and member of the Unsullied.)

    Well, I only read 1-3 back in 2001, so it’s been a while. But wasn’t there similar foreshadowing about Dany’s… ‘dark side’?

  151. Where is Sandor? Where is Arya?
    I hope they stop at the Crossroads Inn, get drunk and psss out, and miss all the carnage.

  152. Dane ironfoot: Well now we’re going all political correct, I’d have to first ascertain the ages of those present at the time of said burning…….

    Seems like a difficult question for you to answer because you keep evading.

  153. Of course Dany looks depressed. She lost two dragons, Jorah and Missandei (how did Cersei know how much that would hurt?) She’s also lost half of her army, she’s been getting horrible advice and now she has no one around her who is 100% loyal.
    Jon is pushing her away romantically, and I’m pretty sure she’ll hear about the Aegon gossip this episode as well.

    She was never my favorite for the throne, and yes, she was always a little unpredictable compared to Jon, but this label she’s being pinned with is a bit extreme, especially since she has never hurt innocent women and children. So Tyrion and Varys being terrified of her after living with Joffrey and Cersei kind of blows my mind.

    Cersei is mad. That’s never been a question. She’s a female version of Aerys with a Joffrey chaser. She always has been, right down to her resentment of her father Tywin for not realizing what a genius she was. She also loves torturing people and is a big fan of blowing things up.

    So I’m thinking Mad Queen vs Mad Queen is a slight misdirect. Psycho Queen vs Rightfully pissed off Queen who happens to have a dragon is more accurate. 🙂

    Things might not be what they appear. I really hope that’s true because that same episode appeared to revert all our characters back to their original factory settings.

    Jon knows nothing, and his identity is still causing him pain.

    Tormund is going back beyond Wall after years trying to get on this side, when there are so many real estate opportunities.

    Sansa is having jealousy issues and says things to people she shouldn’t.

    Arya who was going home as one of the last of the Starks is now never going home again. Not even with Gendry “I could be your family” Baratheon.

    Sandor has faced his demons and death, has smiled and laughed for the first time, but now he needs to face the Mountain right in the middle of a war with dragons and wildfire. Still hoping Mel had a secret chat with him about that.

    Bronn forgot all his good times with the Lannister brothers

    Sam didn’t even get to redeem himself for his battle reversion with a conversation before Jon left. But the seed is strong, so that’s good.

    Worst of all, of course, is Jaime. One of the most amazing story arcs ever, who just left every ounce of character building he’s ever had to return to Cersei-despite her being with Euron atm (ew) and making Brienne of f-ing Tarth cry.

    It’s like the Long Night never even happened. You’d think a few people would want to re-examine their life choices after something like that.

    Now I said, it appears. I have hope that we’re going to be pleasantly surprised and awed by all of them. Plus, Emilia does not have a good poker face about her season 8 feelings, and she seemed to like this episode in particular.
    Bonus: NCW said his ending was beautiful. I’m clinging, I know, but I still believe in you buddy!

    I’m not worried at all. *crossing things*

  154. Inga: When did Dany was burning everyone indistinctively? In Astapor her command was “Kill the masters, BUT spare the children.”

    Yeah well that doesn’t sound like a mastermind strategy either. And I’m not sure that’s a judgment Dny can be congratulated on.

    Inga: Jon should break?

    fdr,

    Dnerys has been treating Jon like shit in ep4. She was unmistakably paranoid and manipulative of him, to the point he felt forced to drop to his knees, become submissive again and remind her that she is his queen.
    Without using Viserys’ words, she was telling him “You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?” I don’t know how Jon could ever love a woman like this.

  155. Dane ironfoot: It’s kinda justified, the common folk all spat on cercie in the s5 finale, she caused serious damage to those same common folk who were in close proximity to the sept before she blew it up, and now they’re acting like she’s their saviour by believing that she has their best interests at heart, these peasants don’t know what’s good for them and even less so for the realm. Burn them all, they won’t be missed.

    For the record, this was the first thing you said to me.

    Could you please point me to the part where you say I shouldn’t take your counterarguments literally?

  156. I love Arya, but if she turns out to be The Princess that Was Promised and the Valonqar, kills Cersei and the Mountain. and uses the face peeling trick for a fourth time, I will not be happy.

    Give it a rest, Princess! Go yell at an undead animal, visit Nymeria, or stare off into space in front of a weirwood tree.

  157. King in the North East,

    A great strategist who just happened to miss/underestimate the great asset he had standing next to him for years: Tyrion. Instead he was so brilliant that he put all his hopes and dreams on his jock of a golden son who may truly be the least smart of the three Lannister children.

  158. Ten Bears:
    I love Arya, but if she turns out to be The Princess that Was Promised and the Valonqar, kills Cersei and the Mountain. and uses the face peeling trick for a fourth time, I will not be happy.

    Give it a rest, Princess! Go yell at an undead animal, visit Nymeria, or stare off into space in front of a weirwood tree.

    Well, I think it might come into play once more.

    But, yeah, it could be anti-climactic.

  159. King in the North East: For the record, this was the first thing you said to me.

    Could you please point me to the part where you say I shouldn’t take your counterarguments literally?

    Why, of course, it was right after you insinuated that I’m ok with child slaughter, as I’m sure you’re well aware. So I would say the initial and immediate response to your following reply to that comment.

  160. Ten Bears:
    I love Arya, but if she turns out to be The Princess that Was Promised and the Valonqar, kills Cersei and the Mountain. and uses the face peeling trick for a fourth time, I will not be happy.

    Give it a rest, Princess! Go yell at an undead animal, visit Nymeria, or stare off into space in front of a weirwood tree.

    Did I just read these words correctly?? 🤯 You okay Ten Bears??

  161. Ten Bears:
    Where is Sandor? Where is Arya?
    I hope they stop at the Crossroads Inn, get drunk and psss out, and miss all the carnage.

    Or maybe they’re riding off into the sunset of their own spin off show. That would be the dream.

  162. Danny:
    King in the North East,

    A great strategist who just happened to miss/underestimate the great asset he had standing next to him for years:Tyrion.Instead he was so brilliant that he put all his hopes and dreams on his jock of a golden son who may truly be the least smart of the three Lannister children.

    Also true. But that has nothing to do with his military stratagies.

    Someone could be a genius in one area, but a blind fool in another.

    It’s a thing. We all have our blind spots.

  163. Crannogman Matt:
    Looks like we’re not going to get to see Greywater Watch or the Reeds 🙁

    That makes me sad too. I would have loved more God’s Eye, greenseer, Ghost of High Heart etc story lines. They really cut down on the magical elements for the show-I say even though we have dragons and FM and WWs and resurrections and a Bran.
    But I did always expected a visit from Howland. Someday someone will actually see that guy outside of a flashback.
    Maybe. 🙂

  164. Che: Or maybe they’re riding off into the sunset of their own spin off show. That would be the dream.

    I would watch that show.

  165. Dane ironfoot: Why, of course, it was right after you insinuated that I’m ok with child slaughter, as I’m sure you’re well aware. So I would say the initial and immediate response to your following reply to that comment.

    Sure, but it stands that you presented me with unambiguous counterarguments directly addressing my points.

    Then you claimed I shouldn’t have taken those literally. How does that work?

    What’s the part I shouldn’t have taken literally? I’m confused.

  166. King in the North East: Do they know she blew up the Sept? Does anyone know exactly who’s responsible (aside from the ones involved)?

    Hot Pie told Arya that he heard Cersei blew up the Sept, so it’s reasonable to assume it’s common knowledge.

  167. Netheb,

    I do agree that the one thing Dany did that truly upset me was her conversation with Jon. That was not okay, and it did remind me very much of her brother Viserys.

    Ten Bears,

    I don’t know, I think that’s probably coming into play again, but it’s not Arya’s fault she’s so cool she’s had to pick up the slack for absent or ineffectual characters lol. Although I do wish they’d give Jon something heroic to do. Guy’s had a rough season and he needs a win. 🙂

  168. Mr Derp: Hot Pie told Arya that he heard Cersei blew up the Sept, so it’s reasonable to assume it’s common knowledge.

    Fair enough. But I don’t think anyone can say they’re sure she did it, so there must be disagreement.

  169. Inga,

    Well, there is a Snow in KL. More and more I’m believing that the vision was literally showing us “Snow” on the Iron Throne. But that’s silly talk. Jon is dead man walking.

  170. RG:
    Netheb,

    I do agree that the one thing Dany did that truly upset me was her conversation with Jon. That was not okay, and it did remind me very much of her brother Viserys.

    Ten Bears,

    Please rewatch this scene. The plot is Jon does not want to be king although he is the hair. Dany then tells him, if that really is what he wants,then he should not tell anyone who he really is, because things will get out of control as people will push him into his heir role. To me this scene does not show any tactical behaviour for Dannie’s advantage.

  171. King in the North East: Sure, but it stands that you presented me with unambiguous counterarguments directly addressing my points.

    Then you claimed I shouldn’t have taken those literally. How does that work?

    What’s the part I shouldn’t have taken literally? I’m confused.

    Probably the whole “burn them all” statment considering it was toungue in cheek. but if taking it seriously, gives you a sense of purpose, have at it. But until I actually make such a statment to a real world circumstance. I won’t have a nobody from the land of the internet judge me as a child slaughtering advocate just because I made a statement that is probably in tune with dany’s mind set at this present moment lol.

  172. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Inga,

    Well, there is a Snow in KL. More and more I’m believing that the vision was literally showing us “Snow” on the Iron Throne. But that’s silly talk. Jon is dead man walking.

    Snow would fit to Eurons cold breath in the preview. Maybe the big twist is Bran doing something stupid again in the past? I clearly doubt it, but my feeling is that Bran will finally play a role again.

  173. TormundsWoman,

    Well if it comes to war he was a master. The way he won over Robb was prove of that.

    Danny,

    Jaime outsmarted tyrion in season 7. But that’s maybe more because Jaime knew tyrion.

  174. RG,

    Yeah, I understand why they cut back the fantasy elements for the show but they somehow managed to cut all the things I was most intrigued about haha. Guess I shouldn’t speak too soon though, we’ve still got two episodes to go 🤞🏻

  175. Mr Derp,

    The common people suspect Cersei blew it up the sept like they suspected the rumor about Jaime and Cersei was true. They just don’t have the proof.

  176. Che,

    The tales of a hound and a wolf.

    They could be sweeping through planetos. All Dexter like. Killing all the baddies.

    King in the North East,

    And don’t forget he hated tyrion. He knew tyrion was smart that’s why he named him hand of the king in his stead. But he despised his own son. He was a dick but a good strategist.

  177. Ten Bears:
    I love Arya, but if she turns out to be The Princess that Was Promised and the Valonqar, kills Cersei and the Mountain. and uses the face peeling trick for a fourth time, I will not be happy.

    Give it a rest, Princess! Go yell at an undead animal, visit Nymeria, or stare off into space in front of a weirwood tree.

    Are you Ok, TB? This post worries me. Arya has overachieved has she not?

  178. Frank,

    Yes, telling Jon to continue living a lie and not to tell his sisters that their father never dishonored their mother was perfectly fine. That was unfair of Dany to ask, IMO.

  179. Ten Bears,

    I very much doubt Arya will kill Cersei (I wouldn’t like that either), and I think there’s a pretty slim chance she’ll kill The Mountain unless it’s a last-minute save for Sandor (but I’m not sure that’s too likely either). Let Sandor have his brother and let Jaime take care of Cersei.

    As for who Arya will kill in KL, my money is on one of Quyburn, Harry Strickland, or possibly Euron (less likely I think).

    However, I’d be pretty shocked if she doesn’t use her FM skills once more. I could see it being framed as something she doesn’t want to do, but if things are looking dire and desperate and she has this skill..

    I completely agree with your sentiment, however. I want to see Arya let go of her assassin ways, and I still think it will happen. I just don’t know how..

  180. Danny:
    Inga,

    I thought that snow on Kingslanding and the throne was a symbol for one Jon Snow?

    I have always interpreted Dany’s vision of the throne room covered in snow with a spider web and spider, and Dany almost touching the throne, but instead pulling back when she hears her dragons cry, to mean –

    She will get so close to taking the throne, but will be prevented by Jon’s claim to the throne and whatever Varys does to undermine her. Also, pulling back when she hears the dragons cry could mean that losing all her dragons (Not Drogon, please!) plays a big part too. Just like Jaime’s identity was all about fighting, and by extension his right hand (“I was that hand.”), Daenerys too has gotten a lot of her hubris from the dragons. She has always loudly proclaimed, “I have THREE dragons!” Daenerys was those dragons.

  181. Dane ironfoot: Probably the whole “burn them all” statment considering it was toungue in cheek. but if taking it seriously, gives you a sense of purpose, have at it. But until I actually make such a statment to a real world circumstance. I won’t have a nobody from the land of the internet judge me as a child slaughtering advocate just because I made a statement that is probably in tune with dany’s mind set at this present moment lol.

    Well, it wasn’t really clear that I shouldn’t have taken “burn them all” seriously when you presented it as the conclusion to your argument. That makes little sense to me.

    There’s no way I could’ve possibly known that your argument ended with something you weren’t serious about, because I’ve never encountered a person before who constructs an entire counterargument, only to make the conclusion a joke.

    So I just addressed your arguments and took them to their logical conclusion.

    There’s a really simple question I’ve asked three times that could easily resolve this:

    Do you think Daenerys would be justified in burning everyone in Kings Landing?

  182. Milutin: I could have done without that photo of Euron Greyjoy.

    I feel the same way. In Borgen, he was a very attractive and vulnerable character. So, it’s really good acting!

  183. Kevin1989: And don’t forget he hated tyrion. He knew tyrion was smart that’s why he named him hand of the king in his stead. But he despised his own son. He was a dick but a good strategist.

    Very true. It’s kind of weird because I think somewhere he still repected him a little.

  184. Some people here really forget the series takes place in Westeros, a continent where the honorable Ned Stark executed a deserter in 1×01 and ask his son if he understands why he had to do it. Where Robert Baratheon sacked the city to conquer it, where Tywin Lannister executed most Starks during a wedding. Even our favorite dwarf had no issues launching wildfire and burning thousands of people (including Davos’s son) who were forced to join a war they had no personal motives in.

    In that medieval context, there is nothing “mad” about Daenerys executing the Tarlys after they refuse to bend the knee or take the black. Or executing the slavers after they ignored her ban of slavery. Or wanting to conquer the city by force to remove Cersei and seize the throne. Had she not been stopped by Tyrion 2.0 (the idiot dwarf) and Varys stupid advices, she would have done so a long time ago and saved many casualities in the process. And now those same people are artificially holding her up to a modern 2019 morality standards, in a world where no one else is? If she is mad, then every other leader Westeros ever had was mad, Ned, Robert, etc..

    The truth is : once you digest the hollywood spectacle and let the adrenaline comes down, none of the last 2 episodes make any sense whatsoever. Tyrion can walk up to his sister and her dozens of archers, same sister who just hired Bronn to kill him remember, and leave without harm, because.. drama? It’s all it is now : contrived drama, characters only used as plot devices for spectacle, and consequence-free actions. The anti-GoT basically.

    My last hope at saving the little that can still be saved is a seemingly innocent dialogue in 8×04 between Davos and Tyrion about how weird it is that the Lord of Light has not given any sign yet and wondering what he truly wants. I hope it’s hinting at a twist regarding Bran/3ER/CotF role in this story, would be a good way to elevate S8 a bit and give it at least some depth. But time is flying by and only 2 episodes left, so who knows..

    Worst case scenario, I’m prepared to make 6×10 my canon ending, forget the disaster that followed, and cherish forever those six amazing seasons of television we had before two guys “ready to move on” decided to salvage it all. Thanks to the cast, thanks to Ramin, and thanks to Mr.Cogman for giving us 8×02, a brief taste of what the Long Night should have been and should have meant to all characters…

  185. Enharmony1625,

    I want the same. I’d love her to rethink her Gendry decision, or for him to say never mind Storm’s End, let’s go west of Westeros.
    And they visit Sandor on holidays if he doesn’t come with them, since this is my fantasy lol

  186. King in the North East: Well, I only read 1-3 back in 2001, so it’s been a while. But wasn’t there similar foreshadowing about Dany’s… ‘dark side’?

    Some people like to say there is, but I never thought it was that much. The advantage is that most of her stuff is directly from her pov so you get her thoughts and mindset. She HATED the slavery in Slaver’s Bay and the slimy masters rooting their way under everything to get them out. Any actions she did actually do were understandable and justified imo. The surface of that is easy to convey visually but we can’t see her thoughts. Before getting the Unsullied she pretty much had little and was abused and taken advantage of most of the time.

  187. Frank: The plot is Jon does not want to be king although he is the heir. Dany then tells him, if that really is what he wants,then he should not tell anyone who he really is, because things will get out of control as people will push him into his heir role. To me this scene does not show any tactical behaviour for Dannie’s advantage.

    Oh please. Have you rewatched the scene?

    Jon is on his knees trying to convince her he won’t contest her claim to the IT but no, she still commands him to let the fantasy remain intact and tells him they can live together on her terms only. Dnerys forces him to keep his parentage a secret (which means Jon needs to lie to his family), tries to turn him against Sansa and sow doubt in his mind of the woman she is today.
    Basically Dany is taking him hostage because he is a political threat to her.

    Fortunately Jon’s emotions (weary, irritated and fearful) when he had his back turned to Dany while she lamented over how his parentage will affect her did leave me hopeful that things will turn around now.

  188. RG,

    I agree with a lot here.

    Jaime has had a fabulous arc and I am keen to see how it ends. I am still upbeat about him. Of course, if the story is that he regresses, then that too is an interesting end. Jaime can be hateful like his brother and sister but that ability is not necessarily a weakness in leadership. Let us see how the series ends.

    I do not think Cersei is mad. I think she is a bad person and evolved to an awful person over the series. Her failure to assist with the AOTD is unforgivable. That said, if I were in her position, I would not simply walk away and give the country to Daenerys.

    Cersei and Daenerys are not very different. I wonder if she told Missy that she does not have a right to the throne before Missy died in service of her ambition. Missy died thinking she was a part of helping Daenerys reclaim what was hers.

  189. Netheb: Oh please. Have you rewatched the scene?

    Jon is on his knees trying to convince her he won’t contest her claim to the IT but no, she still commands him to let her fantasy remain intact and tells him they can live together on her terms. Dnerys forces him to keep his parentage a secret (which means Jon needs to lie to his family), tries to turn him against Sansa and sow doubt in his mind of the woman she is today.
    Basically Dany is taking him hostage because he is a political threat to her.

    Fortunately Jon’s emotions (weary, irritated and fearful) when he had his back turned to Dany while she lamented over how his parentage will affect her did leave me hopeful that things will turn around now.

    Daenerys has relentless ambition. Poor Jon.

  190. King in the North East: Well, it wasn’t really clear that I shouldn’t have taken “burn them all” seriously when you presented it as the conclusion to your argument. That makes little sense to me.

    There’s no way I could’ve possibly known that your argument ended with something you weren’t serious about, because I’ve never encountered a person before who constructs an entire counterargument, only to make the conclusion a joke.

    So I just addressed your arguments to their logical conclusion.

    There’s a really simple question I’ve asked three times that could easily resolve this:

    Do you think Daenerys would be justified in burning everyone in Kings Landing?

    Ok, I shall answer your question………………………………YES, fuck yes, yes yes and yes again, every man woman child animal peasant and all their buildings, apart from the grave of Joffrey, what a king, he should be spared the inferno…..

    Now, you’re in the game of faces, was that the truth, or a lie…………

    Of course I don’t think she should burn them all, they should all rip her out of her keep and do with her as they wish, cercie has wronged them all most of all, along with her firstborn son. I am serious when I say leave euron alone though, he’s done nothing wrong!

  191. Thronetender: I also thought at one time that we weren’t yet done with Daario, and he would somehow come to join Dany’s battle against Cersei,

    That’s crazy talk…yet sort of unnervingly cool. Not really deus ex machina, is it? Someone (Johnny Utah) mentioned a nutty option where Sansa sends in the KotV to save the day again. That does sound nauseating but in all truthfulness, the show has mentioned that Dorne, Iron Islands, and Storms End are all behind Dany.

    I’m not at all in support of this but there could be a surprise, surprise a la BotB. Hope not, but…

  192. JenStar Runner: I’m wondering if it’s a beach closer to KL, perhaps the one Davos used to get Tyrion into the city.

    I think so, too!

    I am getting very excited for Sunday night! What a fabulous series this has been!

  193. Kevin1989,

    That’s hardly true either. Tywin Lannister’s host was outmaneuvered on the field by Robb.

    Tywin won the battle of the Green Fork but missed the fact that Robb purposefully split his army and gave that contingent that Tywin defeated to Roose Bolton to hold the Lannisters off while he was crossing the Trident with his main Northern army. Never mind that Robb lifts the siege at Riverrrun and on top of it tricks Tywin’s son and captures him at the Whispering Woods.

    Tywin won nothing against Robb himself. He turned to Harrenhall, his army defeated by Edmure Tully at the Battle of the Fords and it was thus that he heard of Stannis’ army planning to attack KL and instead of following Robb in Westerlands he went south to KL where he arrived just in the nick of time to claim a victory that wasn’t really his.

    You could say he was an exceptional politician though. He knew how to plot well. And he knew how to manage in time of peace. He was Hamd of the King for over 20 years before so there’s that.

  194. Dane ironfoot: Of course I don’t think she should burn them all, they should all rip her out of her keep and do with her as they wish, cercie has wronged them all most of all, along with her firstborn son. I am serious when I say leave euron alone though, he’s done nothing wrong!

    Okay, then. So you’ve retracted your original viewpoint and changed your mind.

    That’s good.

    You should know that I never meant to insult you. All I ever did was follow the arguments you presented me with to their logical conclusion.

    Yes, Dany is justified in burning them all –> All includes every inhabitant –> many inhabitants are children –> Yes Dany is justified in burning children.

    All of that logically follows. While I realize that it’s fiction, you were still saying that, in the story, it was justified that Dany would burn roughly 100 000 children.

    Anyway, I’m glad that we’ve resolved this and I’ve enjoyed this conversation.

  195. TormundsWoman,

    Everyone keeps changing my mind about who the best strategist is in the show.

    Now I’m leaning towards Robb. (Though he did make that one massive mistake that got him killed)

  196. Ten Bears:
    I love Arya, but if she turns out to be The Princess that Was Promised and the Valonqar, kills Cersei and the Mountain. and uses the face peeling trick for a fourth time, I will not be happy.

    Give it a rest, Princess! Go yell at an undead animal, visit Nymeria, or stare off into space in front of a weirwood tree.

    Wow. What happened?? Are you frustrated with D&D or something else?

    The reality is that most of the people on Arya’s list are dead not of her doing.
    My guess is that someone else will do the honors with Cersei, but I have a feeling Arya will help out Sandor when he is in trouble and end up checking off the mountain herself.

  197. Kevin of House Flyover,

    The arrival of Yara? The arrival of the Second Sons? Dany riding an undead dragon?

    The DM reported fan theories that Drogon had babies while he was missing. The ONLY reason I’m considering that is because of the “large dragon with 3 smaller dragons” frieze on the brass of the astrolabe in the intro. Except the frieze also showed the comet/bleeding star. Could be Euron is seeing a new comet?

    Anyway, I got nothin else.

  198. Ghostgirl,

    I’m waiting for someone to tell Jon he can be a Targaryen and a Stark, and doesn’t have to choose. Who will do that (Sam’s not there – he’s the most obvious candidate – unless this happens in Episode 6) and for what reason?

  199. Enharmony1625:
    would find that strange given how long the episode is. We wouldn’t check in with Sansa, Brienne or Bran that whole time? I’m wondering if they will end up going to KL for some reason (well, maybe not Bran). It would just be odd for Sansa and Brienne to sit out the climax of the story.

    Xaro King of Qarth:
    I’m disappointed Sansa won’t be allowed a confrontation scene with Cersei, her primary antagonist. I’ve been looking forward to that since Sansa was her hostage!

    I was somewhat surprised at no Brienne, since she’s a combatant character, but there’s really no role for Sansa in the endgame of the Cersei story. Her notional abilities are in the political realm; King’s Landing is a military question.

    King in the North East:
    That’s not the argument I’m making. She just executed Mossador for killing someone without due process, yet here she is, again, killing someone without due process.

    She executed Mossador for defying her orders and killing a prisoner that she had ordered be held for trial. A sovereign is the fount of justice, and has to maintain the peace and their authority; it’s the same as when Robb executed Lord Karstark for murdering people under his protection.

  200. Nick20,

    The way things are going, Jon will get all the credit and nobody will remember her name. This pisses me off.

  201. Inga,

    Goodness. Really? SNOW on the throne was a metaphor for Jon Snow being the rightful heir.

  202. King in the North East: Okay, then. So you’ve retracted your original viewpoint and changed your mind.

    That’s good.

    You should know that I never meant to insult you. All I ever did was follow the arguments you presented me with to their logical conclusion.

    Yes, Dany is justified in burning them all –> All includes every inhabitant –> many inhabitants are children –> Yes Dany is justified in burning children.

    All of that logically follows. While I realize that it’s fiction, you were still saying that, in the story, it was justified that Dany would burn roughly 100 000 children.

    Anyway, I’m glad that we’ve resolved this and I’ve enjoyed this conversation.

    I enjoyed that too as it goes lol, I understand where you were coming from, I should have concluded before posting that any sarcastic or semi playful undertone translates poorly when written to appear in a serious manner, the truth is If dany done it out of rage, rather than a spiralling of hermental health leading to madness, she would likely kill herself, I don’t think the dany we’ve known, would willingly burn innocents unless out of an extreme rage of a mother losing not only her children, but her best friend, her only real real friend left, and once that red mist evaporated, only the guilt and horror would remain for her, a hollow victory, but if she is going the same route as her father, then she may not have those same feelings post burning the innocents of the capital.

  203. Sean C.: She executed Mossador for defying her orders and killing a prisoner that she had ordered be held for trial.

    Sure, but she’d still be a big fat hypocrite regardless.

    One day her orders are “kill ALL the masters!”

    The next her orders are “we’re not killing anyone without a fair trial!”

    The next she personally kills someone without a fair trial.

    I don’t blame Mossador for being confused.

  204. JSchmeh: It seems to me that at this point everyone is taking the Aegon news as fact. Dany only questioned it for a minute, but by episode 4 she knew it was true. Also Tyrion and Varys don’t seem to be doubting it.

    Exactly what I thought, is the rest of the kingdom going to just be okay that the proof is from Bran’s vision? If everyone is okay with his powers why hasn’t anyone asked him to help?!

  205. Dane ironfoot: I enjoyed that too as it goes lol, I understand where you were coming from, I should have concluded before posting that any sarcastic or semi playful undertone translates poorly when written to appear in a serious manner, the truth is If dany done it out of rage, rather than a spiralling of hermental health leading to madness, she would likely kill herself, I don’t think the dany we’ve known, would willingly burn innocents unless out of an extreme rage of a mother losing not only her children, but her best friend, her only real real friend left, and once that red mist evaporated, only the guilt and horror would remain for her, a hollow victory, but if she is going the same route as her father, then she may not have those same feelings post burning the innocents of the capital.

    Yes, I get that. Her actions are certainly understandable under the circumstances.

    If I had dragons and someone killed people I cared about, I don’t know if I would not want to have my revenge any way I can.

    Good thing I don’t have dragons, I guess.

  206. Netheb,

    I wouldn’t say Daenerys is taking Jon “hostage” per say. She’s trying to manipulate him, in the same way Sansa has done in the past. When someone is as constantly decent as Jon, some people will always try to use him to their advantage. Daenerys is completely in the wrong for asking him to deny his truth, specially because she outright says that if people know they will push him to take “what is hers”, confirming once again her entitlement. It isn’t about what is good for the realm, what is good for Jon – she is simply worried about what it will do to her chances at the throne.

    Now, she’s correct in assessing how people will react but that still doesn’t give her the right to ask Jon to deny his identity. Because to Jon his true lineage is not about a throne or a crown, it is about his mother, his legitimacy and I suppose honoring the sacrifices made by Ned.

  207. I don’t think Dany is mad. The tragedy will be that other characters do, and turn on her in part because they fear she is. She is isolated to such a degree. Pushed into a corner. She lost Jorah,Missandei,two of her “children”, and half of her army. Her single minded goal of taking back what is hers by right is upended with the revelation that she’s not the rightful heir, and it drives a wedge between her and Jon. She knows the people of Westeros don’t love or accept her, despite coming to their aid in the North. And she sees how they react to Jon with the love and admiration she received in parts of Essos. She’s a stranger in a land she is foreign to. But she has come too far to give up her quest. And she appears ready to unleash the nukes on KL, no matter the cost.

  208. Trevor Estren,

    Some people here really forget the series takes place in Westeros, a continent where the honorable Ned Stark executed a deserter in 1×01 and ask his son if he understands why he had to do it. Where Robert Baratheon sacked the city to conquer it, where Tywin Lannister executed most Starks during a wedding. Even our favorite dwarf had no issues launching wildfire and burning thousands of people (including Davos’s son) who were forced to join a war they had no personal motives in.

    This! None of these actions were “good,” and I don’t justify Dany’s bad decisions , but I’m certainly not going to judge her more harshly than other I liked (Tyrion, Ned)

  209. King in the North East,

    That’s not hypocritical. She was changing policy to try to find the best one for the scenario. Mossador had no place subverting her authority when she was trying to establish the rule of law.

  210. King in the North East,

    mossador wasn’t confused. He defied her orders. She punished the slavers harshly for what they did. This was something Mossador agreed with. When her advisors advised her to take a more moderate tack with the captured Son of the Harpy, she listened. Mossadorid not agree with this and took it upon himself to execute the prisoner after she made her decision. Her advisor advised her that the insubordination could not be overlooked. She listened.

  211. Trevor Estren: Some people here really forget the series takes place in Westeros, a continent where the honorable Ned Stark executed a deserter in 1×01 and ask his son if he understands why he had to do it.

    Except the heavy truth behind that scene was that the insane “deserter” (Will) was really trying to warn others what was coming. Honorable Ned was ignorant of the truth. It was a needless beheading based on a false assumption. That’s how the story starts, with an act of ignorance. Bran/3ER would be able to correct him now.

    (I’ve had this argument several times) 🙂

    Nevertheless, I enjoyed your post as well.

  212. On a rewatch of Arya’s scenes…

    When Arya is with the Brotherhood and she’s practicing archery, she hits “face, tits, balls” but Anguy says she’s not as good as she thinks she is, and “you won’t be fighting straw men, little lady.”

    More likely Arya faces a foe using her archery skills. But something goes awry and it’s a decoy? I hate thinking this.

  213. The beach Jon and Varys are on reminds me more of the Iron Islands than anywhere else.

  214. A man needs no name:
    Not so sure being able to stay alive to view this crap was worth the effort.

    After however many years its been of listening to and seeing how bad the Night King is and the horrors he’s capable of; the very first time he gets close to a human, he’s taken out by a girl who sticks him with the pointy endand he’s toast – end of threat.

    Whatever else happens is just D & D having a mutual jerk off for the next 2 weeks of BS

    Not even going to bother with “prequels”

    Thank you for sharing.

    I do hope there were other reasons for you to have stayed alive other than a tv show, though.

  215. TormundsWoman:
    Tyrion looks positively shocked. One can only hope that’s because he’s refusing to believe Dany gave up the throne to Jon. Because I still believe he’ll do the right thing and support Dany through everything!

    Yes, you know it. I finally turned into a Dany fan because I do not like these Starks and their “I don’t trust her” theme they had up there in the weirwood. It’s like a damn self fulfilling prophecy out there. LF teaching Sansa from the grave to divide and conquer.

    Also, she’s not one of us by Arya- damn! That reminded me of Cersei’s preachings to Joffrey. Growing up doesn’t mean you don’t trust people at all.

  216. Frank,

    Hmm. There are some who believe Bran is supposedly one of the the three dragon-riders referred to in the books, and that his clever horse-chair can be adapted for dragon riding. But to go where my mind is going, we’d have to either resurrect Viserion (not sure what happened to his body) or find a dragon under Winterfell. Not enough time to go there lol, but… there is certainly enough time to Bran to get involved.

    And there’s still plenty of time for magic. Dany could resort to blood magic, and inadvertently tie together her fate with Cersei’s, for example. It seems logical to me that Cersei’s abominable pregnancy could be the dead graveworm baby that MMR took out of Dany. The show didn’t talk about the wolf shadow and the man ringed in fire in Drogo’s blood magic tent but it obviously involves a Stark and a sacrifice. Varys?

    I bring up the MMR incident when you mention Bran, because the prophecy was about reversing time, and we only have one character capable of screwing with time.

  217. Frank,

    I don’t think it was fair of her to ask him, but I think she accurately described to him what would happen if he did tell people. Moreover, once he declared that he was telling his family regardless, she made no moves to stop him.

  218. ramses:
    krupke,

    Yea that’s why I think the director knew to have her braids undone in this scene. Not necessarily a sign of Daenerys going mad just a continuity detail someone thought to include.

    She’s been braiding more when ever she won. I think she considers this failure and removed some braid. Dothraki style. My guess

  219. Danny:
    Netheb, I wouldn’t say Daenerys is taking Jon “hostage” per say.She’s trying to manipulate him, in the same way Sansa has done in the past.[…]

    “Like Sansa manipulated Jon”… you mean, when she asked him to help her take back the North, but that she’d do it alone if she had to, because Sansa knew that Jon could refuse? It’s not manipulation to me..
    But Dnyerys gave him orders, thought about her only, like you said. Me, me me! That’s why I talked about Jon being hostage: he’s trapped in that abusive relationship and it’s a truth Sansa and Arya face.

    On the other hand, I understand that Dny’s worried. The IT means everything to her, and after years of being idolized, she fails to subject the North because the North is loyal to Jon and Sansa who won the hearts of their people.

    But she still had no right to treat that way the man she pretends to love.

  220. Enharmony1625,
    Maybe Arya will end up mercy killing the Hound and that will be the thing that turns her away from her assassin’s way. I just hope she lives.

    I would not be surprised if she had one more meaningful kill, maybe saving someone else. Qyburn is a good choice, or Bronn. But Bronn did not seem interested in fighting anymore, just killing, so maybe he won’t be at KL.

    When Jamie was knighting Brienne, there was an unusually long close-up shot of his hand gripping and re-gripping the hilt of Widow’s Wail before he raised it to her shoulder. I am wondering if this was foreshadowing of his gripping Cersei’s neck. Or not.

  221. Sean C.: That’s not hypocritical. She was changing policy to try to find the best one for the scenario.

    Let’s break it down:

    Dany conquers a city. She doesn’t look at or take into account current justice laws and immediately orders the crucifixion of a ton of people, some of which we know are innocent, leading to their deaths. She takes the city and proclaims her word is law.

    Then, she is persuaded to enforce due process and institute fair trails. Mossador takes matters into his own hands and kills a man awaiting trial. She executes him, knowing full well that he did nothing she didn’t do times a thousand right before that. Yes, he disobeyed an order, but in light of her own actions, she should’ve been lenient.

    After that, she breaks her own policy by burning a man alive to make a point. So much for due process. Then she forces the man whose innocent father she crucified into marrying her.

    Yes, she’s a hypocrite. Yes, her decisions were unjust across the board. Yes, she fails to hold herself to her own rules.

    krupke: mossador wasn’t confused. He defied her orders.

    I’m aware of that. I was being glib. Sorry.

    Though he might very well have been confused or conflicted.

  222. A man needs no name:
    Not so sure being able to stay alive to view this crap was worth the effort.

    After however many years its been of listening to and seeing how bad the Night King is and the horrors he’s capable of; the very first time he gets close to a human, he’s taken out by a girl who sticks him with the pointy endand he’s toast – end of threat.

    Whatever else happens is just D & D having a mutual jerk off for the next 2 weeks of BS

    Not even going to bother with “prequels”

    Thanks for sharing, but you wasted your time: no one cares about your frustrations.

  223. King in the North East:


    Oh, so she killed innocents but it’s fine because she found out they were innocent after she had them killed.

    even assuming Hizhr told the truth, his father wasn’t innocent. He actively participated in a system that enslaved people. He presumably protested the other master’s actions, but didn’t stop them. Even Ned Stark was about to execute Jorah for selling people to slavery.


    Yes, but the point is she did the exact same thing Mossador did, on a much larger scale.

    She executed mossador at the advice of her advisors. This was after she took her advisors’ counsel to have a trial for the captured Son of the Harpy.


    That’s not the argument I’m making. She just executed Mossador for killing someone without due process, yet here she is, again, killing someone without due process.

    See above.


    True, but that was not my point. Or anywhere near it. It’s about how she acts and how she constantly has to be talked out of doing horrible things

    .

    They talked her out of doing something horrible, then according to you they talked her into doing something horrible. She gets to Westeros and follows Tyrion’s advice not to go straight to the Red Keep when Cersei was the most vulnerable and loses most of her army and fleet, prolonging the war. She ignored Tyrion’s advice to desert Jon and the rest of the wight hunt crew beyond the wall and went to save them. That was a good thing. She is not all impulse and bad instinct. She has sought and listened to the counsel of others, because she she knew she couldn’t rely solely on her own judgment.

  224. Renly’s Peach: I have always interpreted Dany’s vision of the throne room covered in snow with a spider web and spider, and Dany almost touching the throne, but instead pulling back when she hears her dragons cry, to mean –

    Thank you – somebody else saw that thing hanging from the ceiling in the House of Undying visions as a web and a spider. I have brought that up before in the past years and been told “nah, its a light fixture.” I watched it again recently, and to me it is more than ever a great big spider in a web, which makes me think that Vary’s machinations/interferences are far greater than we know.

  225. King in the North East:
    Dany conquers a city. She doesn’t look at or take into account current justice laws and immediately orders the crucifixion of a ton of people, some of which we know are innocent, leading to their deaths. She takes the city and proclaims her word is law.

    Why would she take into account “current justice laws” in a place where the law is manifestly evil?

    And as far as “innocent”, they were all slaveowners.

    Then, she is persuaded to enforce due process and institute fair trails. Mossador takes matters into his own hands and kills a man awaiting trial. She executes him, knowing full well that he did nothing she didn’t do times a thousand right before that. Yes, he disobeyed an order, but in light of her own actions, she should’ve been lenient.

    I don’t see why she needed to be lenient. Under the circumstances, that could easily have been interpreted as a wink-and-nod.

  226. krupke: He actively participated in a system that enslaved people.

    Well, it’s both practically and realistically impossible to NOT participate in the systems of the society you’re currently in.

    A person can not like communism, yet live in a communist society. Unless that person goes to another society, they’re stuck in that system and have no choice to participate in it, regardless if they agree with it or not.

    Same goes for slavery. When slaves were legal in america, not everyone who kept them treated them badly. Some slaveowners unofficially paid their slaves, even though that was technically against the law.

    It wouldn’t be odd to imagine that many people who were against slavery still opted to have a slave with the intent of making sure they aren’t being treated badly. In fact there’s much to suggest many did exactly that.

    krupke: She executed mossador at the advice of her advisors.

    Choosing to do what your advisor tells you to do doesn’t make it the right decision, neither does it absolve you of the responsibility of making the decision.

    The point stands.

    krupke: See above.

    Likewise.

    krupke: They talked her out of doing something horrible, then according to you they talked her into doing something horrible.

    One doesn’t preclude the other. I agree with that.

    But again, that wasn’t my point. Her advisors never instructed her to kill or burn people/cities. That’s something she thought of all by herself and had to be talked out of multiple times. THAT was my point.

    I never claimed that every bit of advice she was given was equally good.

  227. Isabelle,

    Jon doesn’t want the Iron Throne, he doesn’t even like the South so I doubt he would accept it especially after all that’s happened this season. The Stark kids want the North to be independent, that’s why Sansa is manipulating the situation because she thinks Jon is stupid but he knows a ‘united kingdom’ would be a stronger one so he’d never let them go and end up stuck ruling the South which he has no love for. The Stark kids are not the same kids he grew up with, they’re bitter, manipulative, damaged and one of them is kills people and cuts off their faces – that’s not Jon. Jon is an honest, simple man and has said that he is sick of fighting. I hope he walks away from it all and everyone. He would never be safe, nor would his family as he’s part Targaryen and too many people hate them. Those Medieval type people hold a grudge for generations and he’d be fighting their battles until he died. Everyone in his life is trying to manipulate him for their own end, Tormun is the only one that really understands him and wants to see him happy. I know I’m probably delusional but I’d really like to see him walk away and go North of the wall – he was happiest there and that would subvert expectations. I’m sure I’ll be disappointed but one can always hope.

  228. Sean C.: Why would she take into account “current justice laws” in a place where the law is manifestly evil?

    How could you know that if you haven’t looked at it?

    Sure, slavery is wrong.

    But killing people that are innocent is wrong too.

    Sean C.: And as far as “innocent”, they were all slaveowners.

    See my reply above.

    Never mind, it’s under moderation, so I’ll just copy it here:

    “Well, it’s both practically and realistically impossible to NOT participate in the systems of the society you’re currently in.

    A person can, for example, not like communism, yet live in a communist society. Unless that person goes to another society, they’re stuck in that system and have no choice but to participate in it, regardless if they agree with it or not.

    Same goes for slavery. When slaves were legal in America, not everyone who kept them treated them badly. Some slaveowners unofficially paid their slaves, even though that was technically against the law.

    It wouldn’t be odd to imagine that many people who were against slavery still opted to have a slave with the intent of making sure they weren’t being treated badly. In fact there’s much to suggest many did exactly that.”

    Sean C.: I don’t see why she needed to be lenient.

    Only if she took into account her own actions. But yeah, maybe.

  229. ShameShameShame,

    Euron looking at another comet….that would be interesting. We see a sun in the clouds, maybe the beginning of an eclipse? I don’t know how he or the people of Westeros would respond to an eclipse (fear? a known thing? ho-hum?). I dunno, we’ll see soon.

  230. King in the North East,

    Then, she is persuaded to enforce due process and institute fair trails. Mossador takes matters into his own hands and kills a man awaiting trial. She executes him, knowing full well that he did nothing she didn’t do times a thousand right before that. Yes, he disobeyed an order, but in light of her own actions, she should’ve been lenient.

    After that, she breaks her own policy by burning a man alive to make a point. So much for due process. Then she forces the man whose innocent father she crucified into marrying her.

    You were talking about her having to be ‘constantly talked out of doing horrible things. ‘

    She followed advice given by her counselors. The ‘due process ‘ she set up was undermined by her counselors (assuming mossador did not receive a ‘trial’ off camera. Plus, mossador admitted to what he did. There was no need for a trial)

    As for her burning the slavemaster, she’d just experienced a well planned attack by insurgents which killed her men and most trusted advisor, something which existentially challenged the rule of law she was trying to establish. I’m not going to defend her coercion of hizdahr into marriage, but I’m not going to ignore that her decision to marry a nobleman and open the fighting pit’s represented a nonviolent maneuver to establish peace and order.

  231. krupke:
    King in the North East,

    She’d just seen the slaves they crucified and used as mile markers on her march to Mereen.She didn’t tell her men to gather civilians for punishment. She told them to gather the slave masters.She learned later that there were extenuating circumstances for some of the masters (Hizdahr Loraq’s dad apparently protested using the slave children as mile markers, but didn’t prevent it) and acted accordingly.

    She had Mossador beheaded after advisement from Baristan Selmy.She listened to her advisor.

    She burned a slavemaster after Baristan and her forces were attacked by Sons of the Harpy.She knew they abetting insurgency in Mereen. You can make the argument that no one should have that much power, but she’s not the only protagonist in the series to wield power bluntly and brutally. Nor is she the worst example of a character in the series doing that.

    She listened to and followed the advice of her advisors time and again and now Cersei has not only strengthened her position in KL, but she’s gotten away with abandoning the North to fight the dead. Furthermore, Dany has lost most of her forces to tactical advice that didn’t pan out as well as to fighting the AotD for people who openly disdained her and her troops.I also think it’s significant that she didn’t listen to Tyrion when she decided to go North of the Wall and rescue Jon et al.There’s two episodes left, and I’m quite sure things will end badly for her, but in the aftermath I also think there will questions as to how sound the advice she received was when she first got to Westeros

    Dany hate is so real. I was wondering will people accept her if she is more humble ? How much humble is more humble ? Would she have earned respect if she wasn’t openly flaunting her power in a brutal patriarchal world? Dany crucifying masters ( like these guys doesn’t consider slave children as people) she stayed put in Meereen to learn and rule. She’s the only one I have ever seen held a counsel and spoken with common folk. Also, the show conveniently skipped what Jon did to Bolton soldiers post war. If it’s people like Alys Karstark and Ned Umber, Dany would have gladly let them keep their lands. Hell! She did even gave choice to the people whom she fought on field and someone how it’s on her if those idiots choose to die ( sam’s family )

  232. I think that’s the Hound sneaking in behind the GC patrol. Seems too tall for Jaimie. The fact that the Hound sort of joked about Arya leaving him to die again would seem to portend her having to actually give him the gift after his reunion with his brother. So that could be a sad thing, among many. Of course Arya, being a Faceless Man assassin, could end all this in one night without breaking a sweat, and save everyone again.

    The only ones who can possibly stop a person like her, a stealth killer who can change identities at will, are the writers .

    What’s got me stumped is what part do Brienne and Sansa and Bran have left to play? They are apparently in Winterfell and missing all the action. Will Brienne leave her to follow Jaimie? Does the 3ER even need to exist with the NK defeated? It’s not like he’s the historian of mankind. They mentioned all his knowledge but the prior one lived in a cave and never gave that knowledge to anybody. It’s all very strange.

    If it turns out Sansa is the only survivor because she’s safe up up north as the last major character, that’s going to really stink. Or if Gendry Baratheon somehow gets made King in the same way – although how can a person who never was truly a recognized seven kingdoms Queen legitimize a seven kingdoms bastard? Or God forbid Cersei actually escapes, even if she loses the throne. The baby could make it unpalatable to the writers to kill her (although that didn’t stop them at the Red Wedding).

    And please don’t kill the last damn dragon.

    It’s all beyond even guessing at this point. Only the shadow (and the writers) knows.

  233. krupke: You were talking about her having to be ‘constantly talked out of doing horrible things. ‘

    She followed advice given by her counselors.

    Yes, I see what you’re getting at here, but allow me to explain.

    She had to be talked out of “killing/burning them all” on more than one occasion, right?

    This is the problem. She wants to do something horrible and has to be reeled in.

    The other advice she’s given is a seperate issue. Like when she is advised to execute Mossador, that has nothing to do with her impulses to level cities and burn people and is therefore not relevant.

    I’ve already conceded that not all advice she’s given is necessarily good. While I don’t think the decision to kill Mossador was a good one, this was because of something he actually did, rather than just a kneejerk “kill them all” reaction from Dany.

    krupke: Plus, mossador admitted to what he did. There was no need for a trial

    I don’t know where you got that? I never made the point that Mossador needed a trail.

    krupke: As for her burning the slavemaster, she’d just experienced a well planned attack by insurgents which killed her men and most trusted advisor, something which existentially challenged the rule of law she was trying to establish.

    Sure, that’s the reason she did it. Doesn’t mean it’s justified. She still didn’t give the man a fair trial.

    She can’t go around changing the rules whenever it suits her and still be considered a just ruler, can she?

    krupke: I’m not going to defend her coercion of hizdahr into marriage, but I’m not going to ignore that her decision to marry a nobleman and open the fighting pit’s represented a nonviolent maneuver to establish peace and order.

    Yes, she did a bad thing for a good reason.

    That phrase pretty much sums up all of Daenerys’ actions.

  234. King in the North East: How could you know that if you haven’t looked at it?

    Sure, slavery is wrong.

    But killing people that are innocent is wrong too.

    See my reply above.

    Never mind, it’s under moderation, so I’ll just copy it here:

    “Well, it’s both practically and realistically impossible to NOT participate in the systems of the society you’re currently in.

    A person can, for example, not like communism, yet live in a communist society. Unless that person goes to another society, they’re stuck in that system and have no choice but to participate in it, regardless if they agree with it or not.

    Same goes for slavery. When slaves were legal in America, not everyone who kept them treated them badly. Some slaveowners unofficially paid their slaves, even though that was technically against the law.

    It wouldn’t be odd to imagine that many people who were against slavery still opted to have a slave with the intent of making sure they weren’t being treated badly. In fact there’s much to suggest many did exactly that.”

    Only if she took into account her own actions. But yeah, maybe.

    Oh Gooood! Now we are defending slavers. This is so awesome

  235. OMG! This comment section. Dany might lose it or not in the next episode. She always has been judged so differently from other people and has been held to a higher standard. This hate makes me so sad and sick. She can’t be Humble because a woman who is humble is seen as weakness and incapable of ruling.

  236. onefromaway,

    Yes, Arya mercy killing Sandor is something I’ve posited in the past, and it would be the show analog of Arya mercy killing Lady Stoneheart in the books. It’s not as weighty as her having to kill her resurrected mother, but I think they can make it work in the show, and it would be heartbreaking!

  237. BranStark: Dany hate is so real.

    I don’t think anyone here hates Dany.

    They, like me, just find many of her choices questionable. As well as noting her pretty impulsive nature. I don’t hate her though.

    Many are in denial, but it seems like the story is setting up Dany’s downfall and it’s become fairly obvious that she’s likely to go Full Rage Mode in the next episode.

    If I wanted Dany to go and burn everyone and meet a terrible end, what’s happening now is EXACTLY how I’ve would’ve set that up.

    It’s also very much like something GRRM would do.

    In addition, excluding the first few episodes, Dany’s basically always gotten what she wanted, notwhitstanding a few setbacks.

    Do you really think this story is going to end with her just getting what she wants?

    Really?

    We don’t hate Dany, we just aren’t denying the inevitable.

  238. Modern Romance Problems

    I don’t really get why all the great romantic matches have issues.

    1. Jaime and Brienne: Someone should have bitch-slapped Jaime for leaving Brienne in tears. She’s a wonderful, loving, brave character and brought out the best in him. He was a fool to ride away from her.

    2. Gendry and Arya: Gendry is another one who should have been bitch slapped for blowing it with Arya, When she said she didn’t want to be a lady, he should have said that he didn’t need her to be a lady, but just herself. He should have left the invitation open. He’ll never find another one like her.

    3. Jon/Aegon and Dany: The key problem between men and women in the modern world is how men and women can learn to creatively share power without one or the other wearing the pants all the time. Hopefully, their characters will realize that and agree to share the throne. They’d both be happier that way. So would everybody else. They are both “good” characters heavily invested in doing the right thing.

    It’d be nice to see the show wrap up solving some of the conundrums by which men and women make each other and themselves unhappy.

    Hope the baddies take it on the chin in the next few episodes and our heroes come closer to developing humanity’s potential in more modern terms that the audience wrestles with in their daily lives.

    I’m still pissed that Jorah Mormont won’t get to invent golf and dote on everyone’s children. Ditto for the lost potential of the other fallen heroes of the Long Night and the Last of the Starks.

  239. BranStark:

    Oh Gooood! Now we are defending slavers. This is so awesome

    Way to take away context!

    Congratulations.

    I’m honestly impressed.

  240. Colin Dougherty:
    1. Jaime and Brienne:Someone should have bitch-slapped Jaime for leaving Brienne in tears. She’s a wonderful, loving, brave character and brought out the best in him.He was a fool to ride away from her.

    Except this show isn’t about romance, and certainly not happily ever after. In fact, any time someone has seemed remotely happy romantically, they’ve ended up dead. So, there’s that.

    I absolutely hated it when Jaime broke Brienne’s heart, but there’s a bigger picture here. He’s not a fool this time. He rode away because he has something important to do before the end, either killing Cersei or saving the people of KL. Either one will make him a hero, not a fool.

    He does love Brienne. Anyone can see that. Yes, he said everything he could to make Brienne hate him when he left. It had to hurt him as well to do that, but I think he wants to prevent her from following him. He’s trying to protect her.
    Ah, the things we do for love.

  241. King in the North East:
    “Well, it’s both practically and realistically impossible to NOT participate in the systems of the society you’re currently in.

    A person can, for example, not like communism, yet live in a communist society. Unless that person goes to another society, they’re stuck in that system and have no choice but to participate in it, regardless if they agree with it or not.

    Same goes for slavery. When slaves were legal in America, not everyone who kept them treated them badly. Some slaveowners unofficially paid their slaves, even though that was technically against the law.

    It wouldn’t be odd to imagine that many people who were against slavery still opted to have a slave with the intent of making sure they weren’t being treated badly. In fact there’s much to suggest many did exactly that.”

    It is indeed quite possible to not own slaves in a society where slavery is legal. And when you consider the opinions espoused by Hizdahr, I doubt his father was particularly concerned with such things.

  242. Sean C.: It is indeed quite possible to not own slaves in a society where slavery is legal.And when you consider the opinions espoused by Hizdahr, I doubt his father was particularly concerned with such things.

    I never said it wasn’t.

    In fact, I never even made that claim. The only claim I made was that owning a slave didn’t necessarily make you a bad guy, for reasons I’ve very clearly presented. Do you dispute that there were slave owners who kept them, not because they wanted to, needed them or endorsed slavery, but because they wanted to rescue them from a miserable existence?

    My opinions do not align with those of my father, they do not align with those of my mother, they only align with one of my five siblings. I don’t think you can use Hizdahr’s opinions to determine what his father thought.

    You are free to doubt anything! but you can’t rule out the possibility that his father was truly innocent and a good man. He was killed before anyone could investigate it.

    Innocent till proven guilty. Ring a bell?

  243. King in the North East: Do you really think this story is going to end with her just getting what she wants?

    Really?

    We don’t hate Dany, we just aren’t denying the inevitable.

    I have never thought that the ending is her getting exactly what she thinks she wants and what the story is telling us that she wants. My hope has been that the ending is her (and others) contributing to what is best and that she gets what she unknowingly truly wants, real happiness. Maybe I’m a romantic, but I have never thought that what she truly wants is power. I think she’s misplaced her desire for family and love with the only thing she can focus on that makes her think of such happiness, the iron throne and being queen.

    I balk at the “mad queen” stuff because in my mind that is too overly and completely simplistic. People that hound on it think THAT is a big epiphany. It’s not. Oooh, character thought to be good guy turns out to be bad guy… The same people that say George would not write that kind of stuff are saying his idea is to write that kind of stuff. Huh. ????

  244. Sean C.,

    Let me clarify that when I said

    King in the North East: Well, it’s both practically and realistically impossible to NOT participate in the systems of the society you’re currently in.

    I meant that when you’re in that system, you’ll be forced to participate to some degree. No one is forcing you to keep slaves, but it would be impossible to not, one way or another, be confronted with them.

    Imagine you walk into a store to buy groceries. The man behind the counter is a slave. You leave out of disgust (though the slave might be punished for you leaving the store, meaning you’ve already unwittingly participated in the system). You enter another store. Same problem. How many stores will you try before just getting what you need?

    If you work somewhere where they use slaves and you can’t quit your job, you’re participating in the system.

    If you buy products that are likely manufactured by slaves, you’re participating in the system (that’s likely true even now, I’ll bet you that you own at least one thing manufactured with child labor)

    You get my point, hopefully.

  245. Young Dragon:
    Can’t wait! I wonder if Winterfell is going to sit out this episode.

    I hope so! At least I’ll be able to watch the telly and ‘actually see’ what’s happening 😛

    Episode 3 was too dark and even inside the great hall at Winterfell in episode 4 – it wasn’t much better!

  246. Clob,

    Sure, but rarely does a person just “go mad” in any case, so that’s true.

    But people do “snap” when pushed too far. And I think Dany definitely has that in her (in the show, I mean. I’m not going to claim it about the books) and it definitely appears to be what the past few episodes have been setting up.

    With all of that foreshadowing, it can’t just lead to a peaceful resolution or compromise. Not at this point in the story.

    The Dany vs Jon storyline is set up. We’re at the end of a show that likes to shock people with very dramatic events. A show that, apparently, has done away with the NK, the biggest threat ever, to make room for what’s going down. So what is going to happen has to be massive and dramatic and traumatic. There’s no other way GoT is going to go out.

    It all adds up.

    I’m truly sorry for those expecting a better ending for her, but I’m 99% certain that’s unlikely at this point.

    I’m also taking into account something the actress said long before the season aired. Something about how she has to deal with how Daenerys will be remembered after her last scenes. I don’t recall the exact quote though… but she sounded sincerely troubled for a second, before catching herself.

  247. Clob,

    It’s more subtle than her simply turning crazy. If she starts screaming ‘burn them all’ and kills Jon, okay, it may be simply black and white. But as I mentioned, I believe it could be a case of her father casting a large shadow that makes others assume the worst and hold any misstep against her. The way she executed the Tarly’s was enough to plant the seed in Varys’ mind.

  248. King in the North East,

    Here we are all about Thrones, however, and thankfully she did reveal a few things: she’s already shot Dany’s “final on-screen moments.” In her own words, “it fucked me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is…

    And what will what screen time consist of? Believe it not, she offers a few tidbits. While discussing the difficulty of infusing the serious Daenerys with Clarke’s own light-hearted humor, she implies we shouldn’t expect much of that in season eight. More than that, she says she’s “doing all this weird shit. You’ll know what I mean when you see it.

  249. Heres my take on what is going to go down.
    The Golden army coming out the gate have a tall hooded hostage, im betting its the hound. Im also betting that Arya has killed the Golden Company Captain and taken on his face, they will switch allegiance to Jon and turn on Cersie. We will get to see the Hound fight his brother finally.

  250. Eddard,

    Because Bran is worthless st prioritizing and disseminating information.

    Hot Pie should have been the Three Eyed Raven. He knows how to deliver critical information to the right people.

  251. Netheb,

    Yes I know: as I said I was never a fan. But she has been kind and just too, and she did put her ambition aside to help Jon. Ok, the threat of the NK was a universal one, but she had no proof of it when she first agreed to stand by the North. So I am not really sure that “we could have seen it coming”.
    I am not nagging and it’s their show after all, but I wish they wouldn’t give us a full immersion into the “evil Queen” trope. We already have Cersei for that. It would be so disappointing for a show so big to sell all female characters so short, after all. Because, let’s face it, Sansa comes out as a bitch too, with her backstabbing and ingratitude (and the whole “I’m strong thanks to being raped and tortured”-seriously??) and Arya is a sociopath, even if she saved everyone’s ass.

  252. Semi Off Topic Whinging:

    Before S8 aired, I’m sure I read an interview of one of the producers or CGI people that Ghost was going to have a really big role this season.

    Big role? All he did was make me dislike Jon for being a crappy pet owner.

    He couldn’t even pretend to be sad and tell Ghost “Now you be a good boy, okay?”

  253. Enharmony1625:
    onefromaway,

    Yes, Arya mercy killing Sandor is something I’ve posited in the past, and it would be the show analog of Arya mercy killing Lady Stoneheart in the books. It’s not as weighty as her having to kill her resurrected mother, but I think they can make it work in the show, and it would be heartbreaking!

    Can I be honest with you? There’s a part of me that is tempted to skip the last two episodes and invent my own ending in my mind starting with Arya and the Hound riding off.

  254. Harry Strickland looks like the guy who got into university on a sports scholarship alone, and is sitting in math class wondering which end of the pencil makes the numbers.

  255. Ten Bears,

    Kit said they always cut Ghost. He’s said it multiple times. From Ghost’s placement with Edd and Sam, then Jorah, then at Winterfell, I feel like they just slid him in except for that one scene where Jon got to acknowledge Ghost by sending him to the North where they belonged.
    I would have loved a scene with Jon introducing Dany to Ghost. Rhaegal and Ghost maybe. Or like I’ve said multiple times, Ghost could have been hanging out with lonely Bran by the weirwood.
    But yeah, the not thanking Ghost or petting him at all was rough.

    Ten Bears: Can I be honest with you? There’s a part of me that is tempted to skip the last two episodes and invent my own ending in my mind starting with Arya and the Hound riding off.

    This is my head canon. Along with Gendry of course. And Jaime finally makes it to Tarth after mercy killing his sister before she can blow everyone up.

    Even crazier, old Nan was hiding out in the hills all along and she comes back to listen to Bran telling her stories about ice spiders big as hounds.
    And Jon drops by to pick up Ghost and treats him like a prince for the rest of his life, while also making sure Nymeria and her pack are safe. The end.

  256. Pigeon:
    Harry Strickland looks like the guy who got into university on a sports scholarship alone, and is sitting in math class wondering which end of the pencil makes the numbers.

    Hah. Great description!

  257. Ten Bears,

    I’m telling ya’, D&D continue to do Jon dirty. Dany fans should be thankful she at least gets such a complex send off. If Jon lives, people will hate him because the show spent all of their money on dragons and couldn’t be bothered to pay for Jon to pet Ghost. It’s not fair! Oh well, at least he didn’t throw rocks at him like some other character I won’t name.

  258. Ten Bears: Can I be honest with you? There’s a part of me that is tempted to skip the last two episodes and invent my own ending in my mind starting with Arya and the Hound riding off.

    I hear ya. I think mine may have ended with Pod singing Jenny of Oldstones.

  259. Here is hoping Euron is about to get his ass roasted in that picture.

  260. What if the Dragons weren’t all male ???

    Didn’t Drogon disappear for vast tracks of time during early seasons, what if and it’s a big ‘if’ not only id Drogon a female, but a mummy dragon as well. Perhaps that’s why Euron is looking skyward and his shit-eating grin is momentarily amiss – pehaps thers a family of Dragons on their way.

    Just a thought?

  261. Tarth Vader,

    But she’s not acting crazy. She’s responding to events, and being treated by others, in a very realistic way.

    Dany became a great, loved and feared ruler in Essos, where she built her power over many years. But now she’s in Westeros, the place that rebelled against her father in the last war, and she’s simply an outsider to most. She’s someone nobody knows and understandably have difficulty trusting. And unlike the GoT audience, the people of Westeros haven’t been watching all the seasons of Dany’s character development. They don’t know how great, and often very just, she is.

    Dany is smart enough to understand this, and so she tries her best to bring allies on board. She tries with Sansa (fails), and with others through magnanimous actions such as naming Gendry the ruler of the Stormlands (success). But she knows she’ll never be fully accepted in Westeros.

    And then comes the bombshell. One of the most beloved heroes in Westeros, Jon Snow, has a claim to the Throne. And unlike Jon, Dany is smart enough to understand that it doesn’t matter if Jon rejects it. The kingdoms will clamor for it as soon as it’s known.

    And she’s lost half her army.

    Where does this put Dany? In a very, very insecure position. Dangerously insecure. Even if she decides to give up the Iron Throne, her life will be in danger. Jon would never harm her, but people who want Jon to rule might take it upon themselves to harm her.

    And then…Cersei murders her closest confidant.

    Dany is now in an extraordinarily precarious position, and it has all unfolded in a very believable way.

    In this context. Dany doesn’t need to be seen as “mad” or anything like her father. She’s in a corner. Unfairly, yes, absolutely. But the world is unfair and it’s put her there.

    So while I agree 100% that she’s been treated unfairly by her Westerosi allies, it’s an incredibly true to life treatment. And the show deserves credit for that.

  262. onefromaway,

    a man travelling on his own will travel far quicker than a large army that has to consider the logistics of food water etc.

  263. Enharmony1625:
    onefromaway,

    Yes, Arya mercy killing Sandor is something I’ve posited in the past, and it would be the show analog of Arya mercy killing Lady Stoneheart in the books. It’s not as weighty as her having to kill her resurrected mother, but I think they can make it work in the show, and it would be heartbreaking!

    Have we not met our heartbreak quota yet?
    Arya mercy killing Sandor wouid be … horrible.
    Can’t they just keep on insulting each other?

    That one moment last episode when Sandor’s riding his horse and chewing on something … then looks up and says “Aww. For f*ck’s sake”… and then we see it’s Arya riding down the same road in the same direction …. Now that’s what I like to see. Not scheming Sansa or dumbed-down Tyrion

  264. Bor Mullet:
    Tarth Vader,

    But she’s not acting crazy. She’s responding to events, and being treated by others, in a very realistic way.

    Dany became a great, loved and feared ruler in Essos, where she built her power over many years. But now she’s in Westeros, the place that rebelled against her father in the last war, and she’s simply an outsider to most. She’s someone nobody knows and understandably have difficulty trusting. And unlike the GoT audience, the people of Westeros haven’t been watching all the seasons of Dany’s character development. They don’t know how great, and often very just, she is.

    Dany is smart enough to understand this, and so she tries her best to bring allies on board. She tries with Sansa (fails), and with others through magnanimous actions such as naming Gendry the ruler of the Stormlands (success). But she knows she’ll never be fully accepted in Westeros.

    And then comes the bombshell. One of the most beloved heroes in Westeros, Jon Snow, has a claim to the Throne. And unlike Jon, Dany is smart enough to understand that it doesn’t matter if Jon rejects it. The kingdoms will clamor for it as soon as it’s known.

    And she’s lost half her army.

    Where does this put Dany? In a very, very insecure position. Dangerously insecure. Even if she decides to give up the Iron Throne, her life will be in danger. Jon would never harm her, but people who want Jon to rule might take it upon themselves to harm her.

    And then…Cersei murders her closest confidant.

    Dany is now in an extraordinarily precarious position, and it has all unfolded in a very believable way.

    In this context. Dany doesn’t need to be seen as “mad” or anything like her father. She’s in a corner. Unfairly, yes, absolutely. But the world is unfair and it’s put her there.

    So while I agree 100% that she’s been treated unfairly by her Westerosi allies, it’s an incredibly true to life treatment. And the show deserves credit for that.

    *enthusiastic clapping*

    I consider myself a Dany ‘neutral’ – she’s neither my #1 favourite, but certainly not someone I dislike. I like her and been interested in her character. Same with Jon.

    I feel very much for her, and am even hearing from friends who have never been that fond of her, who are now quite sympathetic to her situation. She is in an unenviable position at best. She has gone from powerless to power, to now losing her closest and dearest, the ones who have stoically stood by and believed in her and advised her. She is vulnerable.

    After losing thousands of her soldiers and blazing thousands of enemies to help defend Winterfell and even knocking the Night King off his damn dragon (her former little Viserion!), she stood surrounded by zombies, picking up a weapon she had never been trained to use, in a desperate attempt to survive with Jorah. She credits Arya the hero, gives Gendry a lordship, toasts Jon. Yet she is still given the cold shoulder by the northerners.

    And any time she becomes emotional or angry or responds to injury, the whispers of “Mad queen! Remember her dad! Remember her brother!” immediately start.

    Dany may not live, but I am hoping for at least some positive aspect to the closure for her. Emilia has absolutely aced it this season.

  265. Ten Bears: Have we not met our heartbreak quota yet?
    Arya mercy killing Sandor wouid be … horrible.
    Can’t they just keep on insulting each other?

    That one moment last episode when Sandor’s riding his horse and chewing on something … then looks up and says “Aww. For f*ck’s sake”… and then we see it’s Arya riding down the same road in the same direction …. Now that’s what I like to see. Not scheming Sansa or dumbed-down Tyrion

    I will have an absolute meltdown if it comes down to “Remember where the heart is…”, as Arya lies crying over Houndie. Absolutely wrecked. Jorah’s already reduced me to embarrassingly ugly tears, I don’t think this show is healthy for me. Lol.

  266. JenStar Runner,

    Yes, I agree with your thinking. I was wondering whether this is the King’s Landing beaches where Davos smuggled people to and where they can sneak into the tunnels.

  267. Bor Mullet: she tries her best to bring allies on board. She tries with Sansa

    Nah, she had the chance to make a deal with Sansa concerning autonomy or something. She gave her absolutely nothing. Why? Because she wants it all.

    And here lies the problem with Dany’s character. She’s an absolutist who thinks that in order to achieve the things she considers “right”, she’s allowed to use every means necessary. I think most viewers sympathized with her when she tried to end slavery in Essos.’Cause it’s a good cause.

    Now in Westeros there are no slaves. Her focus is the IT. She wants to go about it the same way she did in Essos, same mindset. But now, the context is very different. Hence Tyrion trying to go about it in a way, she doesn’t come off as a conqueror. She’s still seen as n invading force by Westerosis, which was predicted years ago btw and shut down by Dany stans who thought it would go over totally smoothly.

    Also, what happened to the idea of destroying the wheel?

    In my opinion, the IT needs to go. It’s the symbol of the wheel. Dany somehow thinks that she can use it to do good. But doesn’t that sound familiar to fantasy afficionados?

  268. just FYI – the rebellion against House Targaryens is only 15 years ago when the story begins, so there are still a lot people that followed House Targaryen much longer than Baratheons.

  269. I wish that the show writers created more episodes. We as viewers, need to be shown WHY a character is behaving the way they are at this point in the story. But I am actually not very surprised when it comes to Danerey’s story this season. GRRM gave the show writers the broad strokes for her and as we are approaching her final acts, I remember when the author once said in his story, people are ignoring the threats to the north andthe east. He meant the walkers and Danereys. I was rooting for her when she was 13 and innocent but then as she slowly grows in power, we see how power can influence a person and the young girl we originally are rooting for gradually becomes a tyrant with a kind heart. Also, I know that the show left out the 3 treasons, but I still feel a third betrayal g or love is Tyrion, Jon, or both. In the books, Danereys sees in the HOTUD a blue rose (Jon) that fills the room with sweetness. I always felt for her, sweet smelling things were associated with poison. Is Jon really her poison in a way? I don’t think Danereys is a mad queen, but I do see, since season 6, a parallel to Stannis and unlike others, I can’t be blind to her faults. She is imperfect, as they ALL are. At this point in the story I can’t even say this is a D and D creation. Unfortunately for her fans, this is what GRRM envisions for Danereys, who is, like Jon, a leader in the making. For the record, I was her number 1 fan in the beginning.

  270. BranStark,

    Exactly. Both Sansa and Arya has developed into Cerseis: Sansa is more political, Arya is more about power is power (though in this case it’s a power of a faceless assassin), but both of them are all about their family and unwilling to connect to the rest of the world in any meaningful way. And that’s a recipee of disaster.

    I think Jon didn’t tell his secret to his sisters just for the sake of telling that their father had never cheated on their mother. I think he wanted to make a point, that Dany is his family, too: not just some unwanted girfriend he could potentially set aside for the sake of his sisters, but a blood relative he’s obliged to look after as much, as he looks after them.

    Unfortunately Sansa and probably Arya, too, decided to use this information for their own advantage, and I can hardly imagine Jon forgiving them for this treason easily.

  271. The Night’s Jester:
    I’m half expecting Varys to have arranged for the Golden Company to bend the knee to Jon “Aegon” Snow right out in public and proclaim him the rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms.

    Dee Stark,

    Euron looks worried because he read a post it note placed on Drogons chest stating “PLOT ARMOR, BITCHES!” 🙂

  272. Netheb,

    > Without using Viserys’ words, she was telling him “You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?”

    I completely agree how you interpret this scene, but when Jon fell for her, he didn’t experience this side (it was there in the first meeting, but after that it improved when they got to know each other better) and he’s not going to drop her immediately for being manipulative. If she’s going to stay like that, I’m quite sure that he’s going to leave her. But like Tyrion, I’m hoping for the best. Of course, if she gets worse, Tyrion will probably reassess too…

  273. Now I know this is a very long shot and it may sound silly because at this point the show is eliminating characters, not adding new ones, but might there be more dragon eggs somewhere in Essos? I remember in season 5 Drogon disappears for a considerable amount of time and Jorah and Tyrion see him(?) flying over Valyria. GRRM is suggesting they might be able to reproduce without the need of a partner. Even if they are, I think they need some sort of blood magic to hatch? And even if they managed to hatch somehow they would be quite small and not able to help in the upcoming battle? It is highly unlikely but then again, Euron, defying all sense of logic, shot and killed a moving target from a moving vessel, from an impossible distance, when everybody said dragon scales are impenetrable and you can only kill them by shooting them in the eye…I just don’t see how will they get the upper hand in battle with an exhausted army and one very vulnerable dragon, I doubt the armour theory would work… It is a bit sad to see how the show eliminates one by one the elements of magic, but I am sure they will reach a satisfying conclusion of some sorts.

  274. Please Sunday, hurry up and get here! I am absolutely wearied of Daenerys bashing. If I read, see or hear one more piece on how she’s becoming “full Mad Queen” I’ll go mad… or at least madder than I already am.

    Why are there so many fans gleefully cheer-leading for Dany’s demise? I realize the writing on the show is substantially uneven, shallow and empty since season five; but “It is what it is,” as they say in the vulgar tongue. If we’ve followed Dany’s journey for eight seasons only to have her melodramatically morphed into a one dimensional cliche, then her point of view character will have proved pointless and the writing will be proven to have been truly horrendous. After all, Martin did state that Dany was one of the five characters who would survive to the end. She must have some greater significant and positive purpose, or this entire thing will have been nothing but pop culture garbage, in my view.

    I am rooting for Dany to triumph over bad wishes, bad writing and bad treatment.

  275. Bor Mullet:
    Tarth Vader,

    But she’s not acting crazy. She’s responding to events, and being treated by others, in a very realistic way.

    Dany became a great, loved and feared ruler in Essos, where she built her power over many years. But now she’s in Westeros, the place that rebelled against her father in the last war, and she’s simply an outsider to most. She’s someone nobody knows and understandably have difficulty trusting. And unlike the GoT audience, the people of Westeros haven’t been watching all the seasons of Dany’s character development. They don’t know how great, and often very just, she is.

    Dany is smart enough to understand this, and so she tries her best to bring allies on board. She tries with Sansa (fails), and with others through magnanimous actions such as naming Gendry the ruler of the Stormlands (success). But she knows she’ll never be fully accepted in Westeros.

    And then comes the bombshell. One of the most beloved heroes in Westeros, Jon Snow, has a claim to the Throne. And unlike Jon, Dany is smart enough to understand that it doesn’t matter if Jon rejects it. The kingdoms will clamor for it as soon as it’s known.

    And she’s lost half her army.

    Where does this put Dany? In a very, very insecure position. Dangerously insecure. Even if she decides to give up the Iron Throne, her life will be in danger. Jon would never harm her, but people who want Jon to rule might take it upon themselves to harm her.

    And then…Cersei murders her closest confidant.

    Dany is now in an extraordinarily precarious position, and it has all unfolded in a very believable way.

    In this context. Dany doesn’t need to be seen as “mad” or anything like her father. She’s in a corner. Unfairly, yes, absolutely. But the world is unfair and it’s put her there.

    So while I agree 100% that she’s been treated unfairly by her Westerosi allies, it’s an incredibly true to life treatment. And the show deserves credit for that.

    A very good assessment of Dany.

    I’ve always been kind of neutral about her, but the developments this (and last) season have really made me feel for her.

  276. Vally: Nah, she had the chance to make a deal with Sansa concerning autonomy or something. She gave her absolutely nothing. Why? Because she wants it all.

    And here lies the problem with Dany’s character. She’s an absolutist who thinks that in order to achieve the things she considers “right”, she’s allowed to use every means necessary. I think most viewers sympathized with her when she tried to end slavery in Essos.’Cause it’s a good cause.

    Now in Westeros there are no slaves. Her focus is the IT. She wants to go about it the same way she did in Essos, same mindset. But now, the context is very different. Hence Tyrion trying to go about it in a way, she doesn’t come off as a conqueror. She’s still seen as n invading force by Westerosis, which was predicted years ago btw and shut down by Dany stans who thought it would go over totally smoothly.

    Also, what happened to the idea of destroying the wheel?

    In my opinion, the IT needs to go. It’s the symbol of the wheel. Dany somehow thinks that she can use it to do good. But doesn’t that sound familiar to fantasy afficionados?

    I agree with much of this.

    She’s had severe blows to her self-identity, one which she built over years and through many hardships. Being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne has been her guiding light ever since mid-season 1. She got side-tracked in Slaver’s Bay but that added another block to her self-identity: I’m a liberator and my people love and adore me.

    Then she comes to Westeros and she’s not a liberator (there’s no slavery in Westeros) and the people don’t love and adore her. Sure, she put her desire for the IT on hold to help defeat the ice zombie apocalypse and the Northeners, Valemen etc. seem ingrateful.

    But remember, the Northeners think she only came to their aid on condition they renounce their independence (Jon bending the knee). We watchers know this isn’t true, she agreed to help before Jon voluntarily bent the knee. Whether Northern independence is a good idea or not is another debate, but to the Northeners she must appear as a conqueror of sorts.

    Then there’s that bombshell that she’s NOT the rightful queen. A huge chunk of her self-identity is taken away from her, just like that. Add to that that she loses 3 of her nearest and dearest in quick succession. No wonder she’s having a crisis!

    No, I don’t think she’ll turn into “Mad Queen” – the show already has one of those in Cersei – but she could do some questionable things (she’s done it before) before finally pulling through and finding a satisfying resolution.

  277. Long time lurker, first time poster. My wife mentioned something the other day and I feel the need for someone to talk me off the ledge.
    What if Dany breaks the wheel? The wheel being time. And, the past. What if Dany (or anyone, really) takes out Bran? The conversation in the war room, before The Long Night, between Bran and Sam, seemed a bit silly and corny at the time, but it could play into this on a different level.
    I re-watched the dream in the House of the Undying. Next to the spider, is there a raven?

  278. Clob:
    So I was just watching the entire preview vid at quarter speed since it was referred to above.At 17-18 seconds there’s a shot with a bell tower and wall near the water where ships are anchored before it switches to the shot of Euron.I’m assuming that first shot is looking out at Blackwater Bay, probably in the same scene as the Euron shot, but I don’t recall seeing a shot of that bell tower (nor wall) in a shot before.For a second I was hoping it was White Harbor & The Bite because of the light stone color.Wishful thinking no doubt.

    I thought that bell tower looked familiar, and sure enough, there’s a bell tower with bells ringing in S1E1, our first glimpse of King’s Landing! 😀 (The bells were being rung for Jon Arryn.)

    OK, it’s not the same shot (with a wall and the bay beyond) but it… uhm… rang a bell.

    Bells might’ve been rung for King Robert and Joffrey, too, but I don’t have time to go and check.

    Oh, and about White Harbour. I would’ve loved to see it, it’s my favourite city in the books. I love how Davos describes it, its smell. But there’s not really any point in showing it in the show, the Manderly plot doesn’t exist and would’ve been over by now anyway.

  279. Ten Bears,

    I couldn’t agree more. A bit overkill to have Arya literally do everything for everyone.

    The Hound deserves to kill the Mountain. Jamie/Tyrion should kill Cersei.

    I get that she still needs to “close green eyes forever”, and I’m thinking those eyes belong to Dany 🙁

  280. fun fact, only Robert Baratheon was nearly as tall and big as the Mountain, so the series Robert wasn’t that impressive.

  281. Raenarys:
    Ten Bears,

    I couldn’t agree more. A bit overkill to have Arya literally do everything for everyone.

    The Hound deserves to kill the Mountain. Jamie/Tyrion should kill Cersei.

    I get that she still needs to “close green eyes forever”, and I’m thinking those eyes belong to Dany 🙁

    I wonder if the eyes prophesy has been completed now. When Mel was reminding Arya of the colours of eyes she would close, she started with brown and green, to which Arya nodded, suggesting those have already been done. I would be surprised if they come back to that prophesy again.

  282. Raenarys,

    Emilia has blue eyes. Book Dany has purple eyes.

    I don’t think that line in S3 was written with anybody specific in mind. It was just generic foreshadowing that Arya would become a killer. When D&D decided (about three years ago, so when mapping out S7 and S8) Arya would kill the NK, they retconned that line to foreshadow her killing the NK. I’m OK with that, it works quite neatly.

    However, why does she “need” to kill someone with green eyes? What about the brown eyes? Or did the brown eyes part already happen (e.g. Meryn Trant?) Maybe the green eyes part also already happened? What colour were the eyes of that stableboy she killed in S1E8? Or Polliver’s? Or Rorge’s? etc.

  283. Speaking about the Ep5 pictures, is anybody else amused by the bloomers the Golden Company wears?

  284. Che,

    Well yeah if you ask me, they’ve all been done. I thought Walder had green yes, LF had green eyes. So that prophecy is completed. But people are saying she’s going to kill Cersei bc she has green eyes. I don’t claim to know everything, so who knows maybe it hasn’t been fulfilled. And if so, it made sense that she kill Dany.

    Although, personally, I would still love for the Nissa Nissa prophecy to come into play and have Jon be the one to kill Dany. But it doesn’t look like that’ll come into play either.

  285. Raenarys:
    Che,

    Well, I could’ve sworn LF had green eyes, but who knows.

    In the books, LF’s eyes are described as grey-green. Can’t remember what colour eyes Aidan Gillen has.

    Also in the books, Jaime and Cersei have green eyes, but NCW and Lena Heady have blue eyes.

  286. Haven’t had a chance to read everyone’s comments yet so this may be repeating what’s already been said. I don’t usually tinfoil but this is the end so Imma going for it. Taking everything people have said in the last few episodes as foreshadowing:

    Houndie is mortally wounded, probably in Clegane Bowl GET HYPE!, and Arya mercy kills him by remembering where the heart is.

    Yara and the Iron Born reappear and sneak attack Euron at sea, in a reversal of his usual move. The new Prince in Dorne’s army joins Team Dany too, maybe at the last moment Knights of the Vale style.

    Jon will be offered power and refuse it. He’ll choose to live north of the Wall with the Wildlings and Ghost, per Tormund’s comment.

    Fans have been predicting Jaime and Cersei die together since forever. Not sure if he’s gone south to kill her, try and save her or what. I’ve seen complaints it ruins his redemption arc if he still loves her, but people do this sort of really stupid thing in real life all the time. I would count him as a major enough character that his fate in the show is the same as the books, so if he still loves her that’s presumably what GRRM has planned for him.

    Wildfire in King’s Landing goes BOOOOOOOM! Maybe deliberately, maybe accidentally by dragon. Causes carnage either way.

    There’s no Iron Throne at the end, kingdoms split back into seven parts. Dany either dies or relinquishes/shares power. Sansa, Gendry, Yara and the Prince of Dorne lead their regions.

    Definitely die: Cersei, Jaime, The Mountain, The Hound (sob), Qyburn, Euron.
    Definitely live: Jon, Sam, Gilly, Baby Sam, Sansa, Arya, Bran.
    Hopefully make it out, my gang of three side kicks: Brienne, Davos and Pod.

    Finally, bonus points to me if anyone uses the phrase “Game of Thrones”, esp Jon, Dany or Tyrion. “I’m sick of this game of thrones! There are no winners.”

  287. Raenarys,

    I’m not sure if Nissa Nissa has ever been mentioned in the show. I don’t think so. Anyway, the show doesn’t seem so big on prophecies.

    In the books, readers are several times warned against trusting prophecies and we’ve been shown there are problems with interpreting prophecies and visions.

    And now for one of my pet peeves 😀 Nissa Nissa is a story, a legend, of how Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer. The prophecy or Azor Ahai Reborn (as recounted by Mel, so there is a problem there, fair enough) tells of how he will draw a sword from fire. No Nissa Nissa.

    The story of AA is thousands of years old and the prophecy of AAR seems very old as well. Some fans (not necessarily you) seem to take them literally, as a recipe to make this magic sword, like it’s possible for a story and a prophecy to survive unaltered through thousands of years.

    I think it far more likely that the story and prophecy got embelished and altered through the thousands of years. That the prophecy doesn’t mean what people (in GRRM universe and in our world) think it means (see: Melisandre) but afterwards, when all is said and done, we see how it made sense in a metaphorical way.

  288. talvikorppi,

    Ok, I think I follow now. I’m not a book reader, so that is probably my first mistake lol. I read about Nissa Nissa whilst in a GoT rabbit hole a few years back.

    Thanks for setting me straight! 🙂

  289. Sundancer,

    I can only think Davos would be able to get through to Jon like that. Jon respects Davos a lot and Davos has a way of making people listen. I can see him telling Jon he is a Targaryen and a Stark but Davos doesn’t know yet.

    Maybe Tyrion as well, who may also tell Davos. I think Davos needs to know, tbh.

  290. King in the North East,

    I never claimed that every bit of advice she was given was equally good.

    But you do seem to be claiming that her impulses are bad. Listening to her advisors and choosing certain advisors is also an impulse. Deciding to actively participate in abolishing slavery is an impulse. Choosing to save Jon is an impulse. Trying to structure things so the mereenese can choose their own leaders is an impulse I’m not going to judge her more harshly than any other characters I like for doing “wrong things” for the “right reason” Ned killed an unarmed mentally distraught man in episode one. Tyrion used wildfire on people. Jon killed a man begging him for Mercy and a young boy. Tormund participated in massacres of farmfolk and townfolk. I like all of them, but none of this stuff was “good”

  291. Jack Hamm,

    I disagree regarding the writing: keeping us on the edge of our seats conflicted and shaken to the core is a sign of a good writing, though it depends on the ending, of cause.

    As for Dany, it’s worth to mention that she has changed her self-identification: instead of being born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, now she describes herself as been born to end the tyrany. And that’s a good sign, actually, even though Varys completely fails to grasp the change. It shows that Dany is thinking and redifining her role. She has always been good at conquest and it looks like she’s gonna unleash that on Cersei at full extent. But afterwards who knows: maybe, she’ll push Jon onto the throne herself. Anyway, it takes two of them to make a good ruler: Jon can inspire love, but he is unable and will never be able to intimidate the baddies; Dany can intimidate, but she has problems with inspiring love. In fact, medieval ruling has always been about the ruling couple, rather than a single person, and although usually it was the lord who was supposed to be just and intimidating and it was the lady who was supposed to be kind and merciful, I’m ready to go with reversed gender roles in this case.

  292. TormundsWoman,

    Maybe that’s the right word for Tywin. A good politician. But still Tywin didn’t know Robb. Robb was new. Meaning Robb could use surprise attacks on Tywin because Robb knew Tywin’s reputation. Tywin change his tactic to a way he could win from Robb. Very fast Tywin could read Robb and change his plan. Robb didn’t change his plan.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Completely agree with you here. Somehow I think Dany will use the good way to dethrone Cersei without harm to the people, I think she will not go the “killing innocence” route. But what I think will happen is that once she has taken over KL and won and expect the people of KL to cheer for her, they will react scared, maybe even one react like “The Mad King’s daughter, help us”. Cercei has done her damage, and her plan worked.

    I think there’s even a possibility that Varys will be the one starting the rumor about Aegon to the common folk, and maybe some will shout to Jon that they need to be saved from Dany.

  293. King in the North East,

    Same goes for slavery. When slaves were legal in America, not everyone who kept them treated them badly. Some slaveowners unofficially paid their slaves, even though that was technically against the law.

    Yikes. I’m done

  294. Raenarys,
    I’ve left out everyone I’m not really sure about death-wise. Dany’s aim the whole time has been to rule the seven kingdoms but I think she’ll either not get the chance, or will realise it’s not what she thought it would be and either abdicate or share/devolve power. The only thing I feel strongly about for her is that she won’t be on the Iron Throne at the end, but how she gets to that situation I don’t know. My tinfoil is like Melisandre’s visions – some are very strong feelings and others just fragments I struggle to interpret 😉

  295. Dany is pregnant!
    Euron’s fleet gets massacared by Drogon!
    Euron saves himself by jumping out of the ship!
    Golden Company gives up fighting!
    Varys convinces Jon to reveal his identity and to marry dany to give the throne a rightful heir.
    Euron turns himself into the night king by thrusting a dragonglass into his heart.
    Euron wakes dead raegal up from sea and attacks kings landing!
    Dany dies fighting Euron after giving birth to a baby girl.

    Some crazy thoughts of mine.

  296. krupke:

    even assuming Hizhr told the truth, his father wasn’t innocent. He actively participated in a system that enslaved people. He presumably protested the other master’s actions, but didn’t stop them. Even Ned Stark was about to execute Jorah for selling people toslavery.

    I have to disagree a bit with you here, we don’t know in what content his father protested the other masters, and we don’t know how his slaves were being treated, what I meant with this is, maybe it’s in name slaves, but he make sure they were free in some way.

    This happened sometimes in slavery in America, the slaves couldn’t be set free because then they would be recaptured and sold again. Some people bought the slaves but they made sure they were in a sense free. They didn’t need to do anything that they didn’t want.

    Same with Oskar Schindler. I think many know the story, that once he knew the extend of what was happening to the jews, he bought as many jews as he could till he was bankrupt. On paper they were his but they were free in a sense. He is not seen as a slaver, but seen as a hero who saved the lives of many jews.

    We don’t know all the truth about hizh father, maybe he deserved what he got, maybe he did everything in his power to secure the safety of as many slaves as possible.

  297. The Night’s Jester:
    I’m half expecting Varys to have arranged for the Golden Company to bend the knee to Jon “Aegon” Snow right out in public and proclaim him the rightful King of the 7 Kingdoms.

    Same, when I saw the still of the Golden Company lined up in front of KL I thought about the scene from the books when “one by the one they laid down their spears and pledged themselves to Aegon, with homeless Harry being the last to do so” — not the exact quote but you get the point.

  298. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    If Jon’s ending is simply killing Dany, in a supposedly tragic twist to their insipid romance, and then moping around feeling heartbroken, either reluctantly ruling or rejecting the throne, then that’d be disappointing.

    Jon should be bossing this final season having learnt the lessons of his, Robb’s and Ned’s deaths and utilising all that he learnt from Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, Stannis, Maester Aemon and so on.

    Instead he’s seemingly been portrayed as short-sighted, honest/honourable to a fault (like Ned), stubborn, love-stricken, naive… a man who gives away a kingdom needlessly, can’t keep his dick in his pants, browbeaten by his sisters, barely seems to care that his entire identity has been built on a lie, gives his direwolf away like an old bike he no longer has the time to use and is probably about to find out that the woman he’s been fawning over and begging his family to accept as their ruler is actually dangerously unfit to rule.

    I mean, look at the way they had Varys describe him in the last episode: “She’s too strong for him. She’d bend him to her will, as she already has.”

    Is this Jon Snow he’s meant to be talking about or Tommen Baratheon?

    There’s still time for them to redeem his character and rescue many seasons of character development, but I’m losing faith in their willingness to do so.

    Their disrespectful treatment of Ghost feels typical of their treatment of Jon’s entire character right now.

  299. Ten Bears: Have we not met our heartbreak quota yet?
    Arya mercy killing Sandor wouid be … horrible.
    Can’t they just keep on insulting each other?

    That one moment last episode when Sandor’s riding his horse and chewing on something … then looks up and says “Aww. For f*ck’s sake”… and then we see it’s Arya riding down the same road in the same direction …. Now that’s what I like to see. Not scheming Sansa or dumbed-down Tyrion

    Fully agree! That’s part of the reason I felt so.. deflated after the last episode, because it makes it seem we’re heading for an ending that’s far more bitter than sweet. Like, hey writers (GRRM and D&D), what exactly is your definition of bittersweet? (Sorry, I know you hate this word.) I mean, it’s going to be tough and depressing to even watch the show or read the books again if everything just ends in tragedy and bleakness.

    However, when I try to predict things, I do so within the context of this show/book series, and sadly I can see them doing something like this. They really like tugging on those heartstrings and watching people cry. And they need stuff for people to talk about too I suppose..

    Having said that, I’m going to remain somewhat optimistic that this is rock bottom before things get better in the finale, and we do get some of that well-deserved sweetness from characters we care about. I suppose they have to double-down on that tension for story purposes.

  300. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Agree. Jon’s character seems to have become a lovelorn fool atm. I get that he doesn’t want power but he has always wielded it when he had it. I was rather surprised he led the mass funeral but I thought it was done really well. Showed a leader there.

    I wonder if there will come a point where he will say ‘no’ to Dany and we will see the Jon who knows his mind and refuses, rather than ‘you are my queen’. It would obviously have to be something unreasonable but I just want Jon to grow a spine and stand up to people again.
    Or it could be Dany confronting him over telling Sansa and Arya and I want him to just point out it was up to him what he did, not her.

    That scene in ep 4 really did leave a bad taste in my mouth.

  301. BranStark: krupke

    That could be interpreted both ways. I neither love or hate dany. I just find her very interesting character, well written.

    Haters hate her more than she should be hated. They hate her even if she does her full best.

    But the Dany-lovers do the same, no matter what she does, it is all fine. And the she freed slaves argument comes again then.

    Maybe both sides should come to an agreement that she is a grey character. She is neither evil and neither the savior. She has both qualities in her. She has done good and evil acts. That is what her character made so interesting lately for me.

    For me both haters and 100% lovers are both far from the truth. For me what counts is that Dany is trying to do good. But even a good dog when beating will bite your hand. So it’s possible if Dany is pushed over the edge she will go the dark route. I think that’s possible, but not because she is Evil, that’s cersei who does it for pleasure. If dany will commit a evil act like burning innocents, I think she will hate herself for the rest of her life. (So she is 10x better than Cersei)

  302. Sou:
    Netheb, Dany has been kind and just too, and she did put her ambition aside to help Jon. Ok, the threat of the NK was a universal one, but she had no proof of it when she first agreed to stand by the North.
    […] let’s face it, Sansa comes out as a bitch too, with her backstabbing and ingratitude (and the whole “I’m strong thanks to beingraped and tortured”-seriously??) and Arya is a sociopath, even if she saved everyone’s ass.

    By fighting at Winterfell, Dnerys was definitely NOT “putting her ambition aside”. She only came North because 1) she loved Jon and 2) he offered her one of her future 7 kingdoms on a plate.
    Also, Jon has been warning her about the AotD since the first time they met in 7.03, remember? “Everyone you know will die before winter’s over if we don’t defeat the enemy to the north.” …

    And you have it all wrong about Sansa. She’s probably grateful Dnerys agreed to help, but of course she knows that help came at a cost and she doesn’t like it one bit. Why would she, when she just got her home back?
    I saw nothing wrong with Sansa’s conversation to the Hound. She was basically telling him that she became stronger despite the rape and abuse.

    fdr:
    Netheb, I completely agree how you interpret this scene, but when Jon fell for her, he didn’t experience this side (it was there in the first meeting, but after that it improved when they got to know each other better) and he’s not going to drop her immediately for being manipulative. If she’s going to stay like that, I’m quite sure that he’s going to leave her.

    Have you seen Jon’s reaction to Dny throughout s8? Not once has he tried to include her or helped her acclimatize or get to know his family.
    In ep2 he has an instant negative reaction the moment Dny opened her mouth. In ep4 during the feast he has his back turned on her, and he’s obviously annoyed when she complains about how the people love him.

    I think Jon despises her and is afraid of what she might do, and that was more clear than ever in 8.04. They just hide it by shoving a kiss into our faces and making him drop to his knees and cosplay ser Jorah so they can postpone the reveal.

  303. The story has had several redemption arcs, where characters who did horrible things (Theon, Jaime) eventually made wonderful contributions as amends because of what they experienced.

    Why is it so hard to believe that a character who did wonderful things (Dany) could turn horrible because of what she experienced?

  304. Lulus Mum:

    Fans have been predicting Jaime and Cersei die together since forever. Not sure if he’s gone south to kill her, try and save her or what. I’ve seen complaints it ruins his redemption arc if he still loves her, but people do this sort of really stupid thing in real life all the time. I would count him as a major enough character that his fate in the show is the same as the books, so if he still loves her that’s presumably what GRRM has planned for him.

    Very nice post overall. I’ll just address the Jaime bit (being the huuuuge Jaime fan that I am, lol.)

    Lots of people are saying that if he goes back to Cersei, not to kill her for the mad queen that she is, but to be with her, the woman he’s loved (albeit in a toxic way) most of his life, it’d ruin his character arc. I don’t think that way.

    Way back when, GRRM stated in an interview that what he wants to do with the character Jaime is to explore if redemption is possible. What/how much can you do beforehand? What/how much do you have to do afterwards to earn redemption? GRRM also uses the character Jaime to illustrate the dilemmas of conflicting vows. Taking the easy way out, using a vow as an excuse, or doing the right thing and breaking your vows.

    GRRM clearly thinks redemption is possible. See Theon. I’m sure his end in the books will be similar to that in the show. (Although, in a final twist of the knife, Theon thought he had failed. The last thing he sees before dying is the Night King advancing towards Bran. He doesn’t live to see super-Arya do her stuff.)

    As to Jaime… Maybe he just goes back to Cersei to be her lapdog because he luuurves her. But watch that Jaime/Brienne goodbye scene. Jaime loves Brienne. When she’s begging him to stay, he nods, looks at her with such longing. Then looks away, then launches on his “hateful” speech. There’s so much self-loathing there.

    There are several ways to interpret this. The simplest one is that he’s just an arsehole. Liked Brienne, popped her cherry, then went, naah, I prefer Cersei. Byeee! But why the self-loathing, then?

    The most hopeful for us all Braime shippers is that after hearing the news that Dany might not win (dragon down, Missandei a hostage etc.), he decides to go and kill Cersei himself, is cruel to Brienne to prevent her from coming along on this quest. Protecting her. Afterwards, he comes back to Brienne and they retire to the beaches of Tarth and have a dozen babies and… OK, maybe not. 🙂

    A third explanation is that after experiencing those brief moments of happiness with Brienne, experiencing pure and true love, he realises he’s not worthy of Brienne. That their happiness was but a dream. He still has feelings for Cersei – how could he not? They’ve been together since birth. The show has really emphasised Jaime’s love for Cersei (in the books, we’ve been shown him falling out of love with her since his return to KL with Brienne). It’s not the pure, happy kind of love he could’ve had with Brienne. It’s toxic and twisted and angry and resentful, but it is there. He can’t escape it. Especially with a baby on the way (I’m still not convinced Cersei is actually pregnant, maybe she only says so to manipulate Jaime, Tyrion, Euron). But he wants Brienne to escape Cersei’s wrath. He’s purposefully cruel to Brienne, to make sure she doesn’t follow him, and also to make her forget him, get away from him. It’s like Arya throwing rocks at Nymeria to save her. In this context, Jaime’s self-loathing (“I’m hateful”) makes sense.

    I still don’t know what’s up with Jaime, but any which way it goes, it’s been set up. And I’ve been 99% sure Cersei will be the death of him for years. I’m just interested in seeing how it goes down.

    As to Brienne. She knows Jaime better than anybody. Her begging and crying wasn’t (only) about a boyfriend leaving her. She knew he was going to his death. Also possibly devastated that he’d revert to his old, “bad” self, that her influence wasn’t enough to make him stay on the path to becoming a better person. It is devastating. Oh, and I loved Brienne’s robe. She’s not the knight there but a woman, a lover. They’ve been lovers for a couple of weeks at least (enough time for Dany & co to ride to White Harbour, then sail to Dragonstone).

    Sorry for going on and on about Jaime and Brienne, but I just find Jaime the most interesting character.

  305. Che,

    I tend to agree. I think her eyes prophecy has been fulfilled, and I don’t think there needs to be a significance to the brown and green eyes in the same way the blue eyes were to the NK.

  306. kevin1989,

    Some people bought the slaves but they made sure they were in a sense free. They didn’t need to do anything that they didn’t want.

    Wtf. Lord have mercy…..

  307. Clob,

    You’re right. Dany will not become the Mad Queen. She has her priorities not in good order. But she will find that truth I think.
    I do think it’s possible it will end with the people looking at her as the mad queen, and choosing Jon over her, that would be tragic. I think dany reacts now as a “depressed” person. Which is logical after what she’s been true.

    Black Raven: Clob

    Maybe put your sunglasses down when watching the show. Or let somebody who watched the episode without any problem look at your tv/tablet/cable connection etc. Because it should be visible for everyone. I didn’t have a problem with it, neither did 80% of the people who watched it.

    Something is messing with the visuals but it’s not the fault of anyone working on the show itself else everybody would have had the problem. I don’t know if it’s a problem with TV settings, quality of streaming/cable, cable company, HBO itself that should be taken care of.

  308. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    She didn’t do any weird shit in the first 4 episodes. At least not for me. What could go done in the next 2 episode with Dany. Interesting.

    Ten Bears,

    Bad Jon, Bad Jon. No treat for you today.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    ouch! Good luck Tyrion Pimpslap, It’s nice knowing you. Ten Bears is coming for you. XD

    Hossman,

    Dragons are neither Male or Female. They all can lay eggs. But for me I would hate the dragons are going to safe the day. It feels Deux Ex Machina that theory. And it will undo the emotion we got with the deads of Vyserion and Rheagal.

  309. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: I mean, look at the way they had Varys describe him in the last episode: “She’s too strong for him. She’d bend him to her will, as she already has.”

    This is one of the reasons I find it so puzzling that Varys and Tyrion think Jon will be a better ruler. If Jon bends to other people’s will, how can he be an effective ruler? That’s a pretty serious weakness for someone in a position of power.

    Sansa has spent the last 3 seasons questioning every single decision Jon has made as KITN, yet she tells Tyrion that he’d be a better ruler. Hmmm, uh, ok? Perhaps she was really thinking about herself when she said there’s a better option? Otherwise, it’s kind of hypocritical.

  310. krupke:
    kevin1989,

    Wtf. Lord have mercy…..

    Maybe open a history book and look up the story of Oskar Schindler before judging somebody. In your eyes he is a evil man that kept Jewish slaves. But your view is dead wrong, he is seen as one of the heroes of the second word war. Has his own statue, the descended of the people he saved visit his grave almost every year to give him their thanks.

    Nothing is as black and white as you make it seem, it was a horrible time, in which we defeated it in horrible ways that was needed. Everybody in his right mind would condemn slavery to it’s core, it’s evil and should be rooted out. But don’t you judge what happened in history with people who tried everything to save as many as possible, maybe in a way that you condemn but not everyone is as black and white. So maybe you think Oskar Schindler is evil, I will look at him as a hero of the second world war who did everything in his power to stop the horror that happened there.

  311. John Snow: I will never father a bastard.
    Danny caged her Dragons because one of them killed one child.
    TicTacTicTac The Red Keep is full of Dragon fire barrels.
    If there is a Cleagan bowle, the hound would not have a chance to kill the mountain. Not if that guy is as strong as he was shown in some scenes. We even don’t know how this somehow undead guy can be killed. So hound maybe has to use the thing he hates most, FIRE!

  312. kevin1989,

    So maybe you think Oskar Schindler is evil, I

    My comment is directed towards yours on slavery. I don’t think Schindler was evil, and I’m not going to try to defend people who owned slaves. Many of the people you say were buying slaves to save them were actually the family members of those slaves. They didn’t buy them to own them. They bought them b/c that was the only way they had to free them.

  313. kathy:

    The Stark kids want the North to be independent, that’s why Sansa is manipulating the situation because she thinks Jon is stupid but he knows a ‘united kingdom’ would be a stronger one so he’d never let them go and end up stuck ruling the South which he has no love for. The Stark kids are not the same kids he grew up with, they’re bitter, manipulative, damaged. […] I’d really like to see him walk away and go North of the wall – he was happiest there and that would subvert expectations.

    For their defence, I’d say that Jon hasn’t given his siblings much reason to like Dnerys. His “She’ll be a good queen” sounded very much like Sansa’s “I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey.”
    Jon’s a family man. The writers are making a very bad decision in not letting him TALK to his sisters, but I believe Jon shuts their concerns down because he has to assert his allegiance with Dany and draw her attention away from Sansa, otherwise she’s toast. He’s protecting his family here. And Sansa starts to realise how afraid Jon is of what Dny might do after her talk with Tyrion. By telling Tyrion, she was protecting Jon.

    Also, I don’t think the Starks are plotting to get Jon on the throne. Sansa’s spent s7 wishing Jon were in WF.
    They just want their pack to be together, and Dny out of the picture. It’s for the good of the realm. A person who constantly needs to be talked out of burning down cities cannot end up on the throne. Varys agrees. It’s time to bring him into the fold!

    PS: Jon did have some moments of happiness north of the wall, mostly thanks to Ygritte. But… do you remember that even though he loved her, he was deceiving her the whole time? He never truly deserted the NW.

  314. Mr Derp,

    Regarding Sansa

    I’ve said some of this in other posts but I think D&D and possibly GRRM are going with “Sansa is the smartest person I know” ending.
    I think we’re in for a large 3rd twist based on the scroll that Sophie kept that she said in an interview she uses in one of the last two episodes. She says the scroll has a huge spoiler. Also she was given the storyboard of her final scene with lots of other people present. I think she has to be in the throne room in KL for her final scene for it to be her most important scene. I’m really convinced this is where we are headed. This is bad news for Dany fans for sure. I think Sansa is the one who is playing the game the best at the end. I’m just not sure if she will convince Gendry to sit on the throne with her? Or Jon? That would be worse than his aunt. But I really do think we are headed for a major twist with Sansa based on Sophie’s own interviews. She also said she doesn’t work with Lena this season so someone else must take Cersei out first
  315. Laura,

    Um, Jaime and Brienne has been building since Season 2. It didn’t happen out of nowhere. What would you have preferred? A Transformers-style war? There are so many action movies out there for people who aren’t smart enough to understand anything else. Maybe GoT isn’t the best choice for you.

  316. Inga:

    As for Dany, it’s worth to mention that she has changed her self-identification: instead of being born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, now she describes herself as been born to end the tyrany.

    Oh, good catch! I totally missed that! Thank you!

    Because Dany had to change her self-identification. She’s not the rightful heir of the Targaryen dynasty, Jon is. And this “end the tyranny” narrative seamlessly segways to her other self-identification narrative, that of being the liberator. Deftly done, Dany!

    I’m not saying it’ll work out, but Dany has used a mental strategy to preserve her self-identity, to preserve her from complete identity melt-down. “Madness”, if you like. Well done, Dany!

    I don’t think Dany will end up as the “mad queen” – we already have one in Cersei, two would be overkill. Rather, I think Dany will find a way, outside the box thinking. We’ve seen her do that a couple of times.

    I’m a bit baffled at all the angry Dany fans who pan the show, all eight seasons of it, because they think the show is making their beloved, triumphant, conquering hero turn mad queen. Like… when has GoT ever been straightforward? There are still two episodes to go, anything could happen. Jeesh!

    One thing is fan expectations and perceptions. If you see Dany as a triumphant, conquering hero who would just walk it, of course you’re going to be disappointed. It wasn’t ever going to be that easy. I can understand Dany fans love Dany but they fail to understand why the Westerosi in general and the Northeners in particular might not love her.

    Second thing. Through seasons 1-6, I was kind of meh about the Dany storyline (especially fucking Meereen!). I kind of liked her, thought she was one of the “good guys” with flaws, but didn’t really care all that much. Season 7 and now especially S8 have made me really care about her, her fate in the show. It’s because she’s being put through the wringer. She’s being forced to have some character growth, not just dracarys her way to whatever she desires. Well done, D&D!

  317. Mr Derp: Sansa has spent the last 3 seasons questioning every single decision Jon has made as KITN, yet she tells Tyrion that he’d be a better ruler.Hmmm, uh, ok?Perhaps she was really thinking about herself when she said there’s a better option?Otherwise, it’s kind of hypocritical.

    … and yet back in 7.01 she told Jon he was good at ruling.
    Questioning someone’s decision is not bad, Jon said it himself. Only a despot would never allow his decisions to be questioned.

    Sansa had been worried that he had thrown away everything they’d fought for just because he was in love with Dany. And honestly, how can we blame her when Jon keeps saying she’ll be a good queen?
    Sansa was definitely talking about Jon with Tyrion, not herself. She has no claim to the IT and loathes the idea of going to KL. If she wanted absolute power over the North she would have taken it by now.

  318. krupke:
    kevin1989,

    My comment is directed towards yours on slavery. I don’t think Schindler was evil, and I’m not going to try to defend people who owned slaves. Many of the people you say were buying slaves to save them were actually the family members of those slaves. They didn’t buy them to own them. They bought them b/c that was the only way they had to free them.

    And that was my point. So we are align. I condemn slavery. Not all who “owned” slaves. and I meant on paper were evil, there were many who had that only for the law but in fact they were free. And as you stated to free them.

    And to go back to hizh father, who says he didn’t do the same. that was only my point. And when you were WTF lord have mercy I had the feeling you were judging me, but I though the same as you.

    And yes maybe Hizh father was the same, freed them in a sense, I say in a sense because for the law he needs to uphold the farce.

    As for dany, was she evil in that moment, yes and no. Yes for the crucifying, no for for the killing. You don’t have the time to investigate every one. And she tried to abolish a horrible custom, And i don’t think her first though was: Oh who is innocent and who not. No she saw a custom that is evil that needs to stop.

    Later on you saw when talking to hizhdar that she saw a second side, and you saw that she learned from it.

  319. Couple random thoughts from me

    – Jackass Sparrow’s picture is the most intriguing. What would cause this reaction?
    Regular Drogon? Nope, Armored Drogon? perhaps. Undead somehow raised by a Red priestess Rhaegal? Absolutely. (I don’t see this happening but am befuddled by this picture)

    – Yara and the Ironborn and the hastily mentioned ‘new prince of Dorne’ might play into the endgame battle.

    – Bran. Will he have a role in Ep5? So far he’s contributed a smidgen more than I have this season.

    – Who kills Cersei? At this point I don’t care who, it just has to be someone with a bloody good way of carrying it out.

  320. Ghostgirl,

    When Jon told Dany about his parents in Episode 2 I thought, okay, here we go, now we’re gonna see the real Jon.

    In the previous season there’d been a massive imbalance of power between him and Dany. He desperately needed her help, he was totally outmanned and outgunned, and the threat of the Night King, Cersei and Dany was too much to handle at once.

    Better to secure her help, protect his family/people and get into the inner circle of the winning team, rather than lose the war he’s been fighting almost single-handedly since Season 1 and everything that matters to him along with it.

    That’s why he bent the knee, surely. Not because he thought the sun shone out of Dany’s backside or because he was love-struck.

    And now he finds out he’s actually got some leverage. A claim to the throne that supersedes hers. Dragon-riding capabilities that surprised Dany (and which we saw in Episode 4 made her paranoid). And he pinned his colours to the mast right before a major battle that would likely level the playing field militarily, if any of them survived at all.

    This could’ve been the turning point, where Jon took control of his own destiny and proved himself a match for Dany (and Cersei) and capable of playing the Game of Thrones.

    Instead, we still have him down on one knee mewling “you are my queen”, refusing to take advantage of his newfound position of strength (that responsibility is left to Sansa) and dutifully trudging his people down to King’s Landing to die fighting for her right to sit on the throne, even though Sansa, Tyrion, Varys, Arya and everybody else on Planetos is catching on to her unsuitability to rule.

    Like I said, there’s still time to redeem his character. To reveal that he has his doubts too and that there has been some method to his behaviour. For him to outmanoeuvre Dany and/or Cersei and make good use of the power within his grasp.

    But if they insist on him remaining the seemingly naive, lovelorn, subservient dope that he currently is, then they will have chucked seasons of development in the trash.

    I think back to the Season 7 premiere when Sansa says to him: “You need to be smarter than father. You need to be smarter than Robb”. What was the point in lines like that if Jon was never going to demonstrate a better nose for the “game” than the northern rulers that went before him?

    What was the point in Jon going on and on about his loyalty being to The North and protecting The North being the only thing that mattered if he’s going to be so submissive to Dany’s quest for the Iron Throne now? Is there a reason why he’s dutifully marching his war-weary remaining forces south to their deaths at her command, even though he has more leverage with her than ever before?

    Hell, Yara Greyjoy got a crown and autonomy for the Iron Islands out of Dany in return for a hundred ships, while Aegon Targaryen didn’t even bother to negotiate. Why not?

    With only two episodes left, the opportunities to rescue Jon Snow’s character are rapidly disappearing. If you’re going to depict one of your protagonists’ stories unravelling into tragedy then it should be equally matched by the other’s rise to glory.

    If Dany is falling short in the final stretch, then now should be the moment when Jon Snow proves his pedigree.

  321. Laura: That kind of talk will get you laughed out of here unfortunately. The site that used to house all the fans who could intelligently speak about the show, good and bad, has given way to a bunch of fangirls who are super stoked that Brienne and Jaime finally DID IT and that Gendry proposed to Arya, eff any common sense.

    Yes, because it is SO dumb for Jaime anf Brienne to have sex. They were clearly never attracted to each other, no sir. Also Gendry proposing? Pfffft, why would he. Not like Arya and him ever had anything in common. So silly. Fanfiction really!

  322. Netheb: If she wanted absolute power over the North she would have taken it by now.

    Don’t be so sure of that. Sansa, IMO, is pretty clearly going to cook up some scheme in the end that will probably screw someone else over that didn’t see it coming. She’s turned into Littlefinger and Cersei combined.

    Netheb: … and yet back in 7.01 she told Jon he was good at ruling.
    Questioning someone’s decision is not bad, Jon said it himself. Only a despot would never allow his decisions to be questioned.

    Never questioning a decision is different than questioning every single decision. Yes, she told Jon that he was good at ruling, yet she questioned every single decision he’s ever made. You can pick and choose which statements you prefer to cling to, but it’s inconsistent. If I question every decision my boss makes then chances are he/she is a terrible boss.

  323. Mr Derp,

    Well we’re just gonna see who’s right in the end, heh? 😉 Regarding Cersei and LF, remember that learning is NOT becoming. She offered her title to Bran, appeased the Lords’ concerns about Jon, and so on. Sansa doesn’t want power, she wants to be with her pack.

    Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Agreed. Jon has been manipulating Dnerys the whole time. Yes, he may have loved her, but he loves the North and his family more: Jon never spoke warmly of her and just states facts (we needed her).
    Sansa spilled the truth to Tyrion only after she realises how fearful of Dany everyone is: an oath is invalid when your family is in danger. She wasn’t betraying Jon, she was playing the game on his behalf because he’s so cornered now, trapped in that abusive relationship.

  324. Hodor:
    It will end up like suddenly no one wants to kill Neagon, ahhh Cersey. lol

    That would be something.

    Qyburn: Can’t you see, You can defeat Cercei. Everybody is Cercei. I’m Cercei.
    Mountain: *Gargl Gargl* (Translate: I’m Cersei)
    The people: We are Cersei

    Jon and Dany: WTF is happening here. And why the fuck are the dead back.
    Rick: Caaaaarl!

  325. Mr Derp,

    That’s why their characterisation of Jon over the past couple of seasons has been so frustrating. On the one hand they portray everybody loving him and declaring him a fabulous ruler. Yet on the other hand they make him painfully naive and incompetent when convenient to the plot.

    All of Sansa’s criticisms of his rule, for example, are things that felt like they were leading somewhere; but which have ended up feeling like the writers poking unnecessary holes in Jon’s character and leadership because they never bother to portray any development or complexity in Jon’s character.

    I mentioned in the comment I posted above about that whole conversation Sansa and Jon had in the Season 7 premiere where she warned him not to be as naive and honourable and short-sighted as Robb and Ned. The only reason that perfectly appropriate interaction looks bad now is because they’ve yet to bother to follow up with any such character development for Jon in subsequent episodes/seasons.

    It’s so frustrating.

  326. I’ve been wondering to myself all week why Daenerys and Drogon couldn’t just destroy all or most of the scorpions on the wall and/or ships at night. It’s not like they have big spotlights lighting up the skies or huge enough fires by the walls to see them coming. Take one parallel run above the wall streaming fire over all of the scorpions and then come in stealth past the ships. There aren’t any “innocent” civilians on the walls or ships… Yeah, they can make more but that takes time

  327. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    I agree with all you’ve said. Maybe he’s trying to use the fact the Northern soldiers have helped her to gain an independence (unlikely)?

    Jon was never the brightest but he wasn’t a idiot and that is what he appears to have become. Jon maybe thinks this is the only way to keep Dany from hurting Sansa. Sansa has shown her distrust and grievences on her sleeve, with no subtlety. I do wonder if Jon is maybe trying to placate Dany to protect Sansa as he knows Dany has a far superior army and the dragons. He seemed rather surprised when he told Dany the truth that she went straight for the IT angle. Sam, his best friend, has already laid his cards on the table. She again tried to get him to deny who he was but he ignored Dany, thankfully.

    The idea that Jon ‘is playing the game’ by getting Dany to beat Cersei so he can win doesn’t really fit his narrative. He has no thirst for power but then again he was never in any position to claim it, he was always given it after others felt he deserved it. I am starting to wonder if Jon is being molded by Dany as much as we think. Dany could easily burn Winterfell to the ground if she sees a threat which is why Jon agreed to leave (not likely but possible). As others have pointed out he did leave her on her own at the feast when he should really have been spending time with her and publically thanking her. From what we know very few people seem to acknowledge that Dany saved Jon beyond the Wall. She doesn’t appear to have got the credit when it was due…….

    Ok, I’m over-thinking.

  328. Netheb: Sansa doesn’t want power, she wants to be with her pack.

    Without power her pack is vulnerable though. Make no mistake she wants power, but not for the sake of it. She wants power to protect her family. She can’t really depend on anyone, as she’s previously stated. She’s going to take her destiny into her own hands, whether I like it or not 🙂

  329. krupke:
    kevin1989,

    Wtf. Lord have mercy…..

    It’s actually show canon. There was this elderly, well-spoken man come to Dany’s court in Meereen. He used to be a slave, a well-respected member of the household, a beloved tutor to his master’s children, now he’s on the streets, trying to survive. So not all slave-owners were just purely eeeeevil.

    I’m not surprised that an elderly man who has never known anything else is finding it difficult to adjust to the new regime. Like going back to this benevolent slave-master and his household, who clearly valued, respected, even loved him, and ask for a wage to do his previous job. Maybe his previous master was one of the 163 Dany crucified?

    Of course slavery is evil. But you can’t just wave a magic wand and make it go away. We’re talking about a whole economic and cultural system here. Are the freed slaves going to get paid employment? Well-paid enough to sustain themselves. The former masters would understandably be resentful of their privileges being taken away, not willing to pay a living wage. Especially if there is, as it seems, a surplus of labour.

    I understand slavery is a very touchy subject in the USA, but kneejerk reactions aren’t helpful. I reiterate, slavery is an abhorrent practice, evil. But ending a whole economic system isn’t simple, and there are bound to be former slaves who thought they had it better before. They’re misguided, but we have to try to understand their point of view and where it comes from. Their children and grandchildren will not understand their attitude but it’s wholly believable at the time.

    Of course Dany freeing slaves is a GOOD thing and I’m sure GRRM chose this particular issue for Dany to be “good” because of the USA’s fairly recent history and still ongoing traumas with it. Ending slavery in the USA took a civil war, a brutal reconstruction era, and yet old attitudes and traumas still prevail. Why would Meereen be any different?

    The show had Dany leave Daario in charge of Meereen, lol. Like that’s ever gonna work, lol. By now, they’ve probably reverted back to slavery, Daario being the most powerful slavemaster himself.

  330. talvikorppi,

    I think these fans love Dany for many reasons. Some are in interested in her arc, where ever it goes. But one reason for many in her fan base is that she offered vicariously enjoyment of unbridled power.

    Once she got her dragons, she enabled her fans to enjoy power vicariously. It was victory and domination and supreme power. The thrill of destruction. She was the most powerful and the beautiful – women wanted to be her, the men wanted to bed her. She did a lot of things they saw as good, they did not care about the people she hurt. The power and the glory! They loved that people loved her and followed her like the prophet in a cult. they enjoyed that vicariously. She was a cult leader in GOT – until she got to Westeros.

    The new realities are a bit of cold water on the fantasy life that Dnerys and her dragons have been offering to her fans to date.

  331. Mr Derp: Without power her pack is vulnerable though.Make no mistake she wants power, but not for the sake of it.She wants power to protect her family.She can’t really depend on anyone, as she’s previously stated.She’s going to take her destiny into her own hands, whether I like it or not 🙂

    Yes I believe she will 🙂 but the big difference with Dnerys is that Sansa doesn’t have that distorted sense of superiority or that need for control over others.
    She and Jon protected their pack and won the hearts of their people with love, mercy and the respect they have for them. That’s why Dany feels upstaged by Sansa; she’s only driven by her desire for the Iron Throne, others be damned, her sanity be damned.

  332. Mr Derp: Without power her pack is vulnerable though.Make no mistake she wants power, but not for the sake of it.She wants power to protect her family.

    From my perspective I think she’s been clear on wanting power. Not necessarily Qot7K, but in the North most certainly. She’s the one pushing hard for independence and she knows Jon doesn’t really want to rule anything. If he does though she’s now thinking the iron throne which does get him out of the North. It’s also obvious she feels she’s more suited to and capable of leading the North than anyone else. She doesn’t tell Arya on the walls that she’s not abandoning OUR people to go to the crypt, she says, “I’m not abandoning MY people.” That’s just one example of her already seeing herself as ruling/running the North, and I don’t believe it’s a temporary mentality.

  333. Che,

    Did anyone have the horrific thought that it will be Hound that gives mercy to Arya? That she will go after Cersei and Mountain will do her in?
    This will give Hound the strength to finally face fire and burn his brother?

    No, no, this is not what I want. Just that the thought came to me.

    I know many are going come back and refer to that old outline that GRRM did. However, we have no reason to believe that he did not revise his plan – that happens a lot. Publishers know this and evolving your initial outline is not unknown.

  334. I have had three different people ask me… what if there are more dragons????? What if they laid eggs???

  335. Clob: She doesn’t tell Arya on the walls that she’s not abandoning OUR people to go to the crypt, she says, “I’m not abandoning MY people.”That’s just one example of her already seeing herself as ruling/running the North, and I don’t believe it’s a temporary mentality.

    Well… Sansa HAS been Lady of Winterfell for two seasons now 😉 and Jon left her in charge of the North back in 7.02. She arranged the evacuation of the North, managed food supplies and so on.
    Of course she’s already running the North lol, and like a boss I might add.

  336. Dee Stark,

    I think that’s unlikely. Many think the final scene on the opening credits means more dragons. I thought that represented Dany ‘birthing’ her dragons, since the other two are the Wall falling and the Red Wedding.

  337. Dee Stark:
    I have bad three differentpeople ask me… what if there are more dragons????? What if they laid eggs???

    I am all for more dragons or at least that eggs were laid somewhere. Drogon was off all alone for quite a while. If some more dragons showed up now though I’m certain there would be a lot of complaining about that too (deus ex machina and all that). While assuming that all three will die by the end of ASoIaF I’ve always desired more eggs to be found just so there’s the fantasy element added to my imaginations of the story beyond what we saw/read.

  338. Clob,

    Yep. It’s pretty clear to me too that Sansa wants power and she’s getting ready to scheme her way to the top.

    If her number 1 concern was simply her family being safe then she never would’ve told Tyrion about Jon’s parentage. Jon is pretty much a dead man walking now.

  339. Netheb,
    That’s basically what I’m saying. She’s had the power and she likes it.

    Mr Derp,
    … and in liking the power she has in the North I don’t see her relinquishing it to anyone. She believes she’s the best person for it and it’s her position to keep. I’m not quite sure yet if she’s going to go after the iron throne for herself but it definitely feels possible. We know she doesn’t want either Cersei or Daenerys as queen and I really don’t believe she thinks much of AeJon’s abilities to rule a kingdom…

  340. Clob,
    No. Sansa doesn’t particularly enjoy power, other that it makes her safe. She doesn’t take pleasure to subjugating people (she doesn’t subjugate them anyway), unlike a certain someone.

    Mr Derp:
    If her number 1 concern was simply her family being safe then she never would’ve told Tyrion about Jon’s parentage.Jon is pretty much a dead man walking now.

    It’s quite the opposite lol.She told Tyrion (who told Varys) so that it would lead to Dnerys losing support and her advisors.
    The more people know about Jon’s claim, the less likely it is that Dany gets rid of Jon in a quiet corner because he’s a threat to her. Sansa knows this.

  341. talvikorppi,

    Nice post on slavery and the difficulties of evolving change in a society. Power can help you conquer but making real long-lasting change in society requires a more complicated process, time, patience and a bit of wisdom. It also requires a deep knowledge of the people, history and institutions in that society. It requires that the people want it and have some type of trust between leaders and the community. Very hard things to do.

  342. Netheb,

    That’s unfair. Pretty clear, that it was Jon who asked Dany to legitimize Gedry (Dany had no clue who Gendry was). I assume that he also asked Tormund to raise his horn for Dany. As for his siters, he tried to talk with them more than once; he even tried to make a point that Dany was his and their family, too, by revealing his true identity. His sisters’ unwillingnes to respond, their breach of the guest right, is their fault, not his.

  343. Ramsay's 20th Good Man,

    Jon being naive is nothing new, not in the show nor in the books. Jon is many good things, when compared to the other 5 main characters he’s clearly the most decent and honorable. Not only in action but in nature. He somehow managed to survive his hardships and losses with his heart more or less intact. When people look at him (and I’m thinking characters in the story here) and judge him to be a good ruler, it is because they see someone who is brave, selfless, someone who usually has a decent control of his temperament (if not always his hero impulses), someone who is benevolent but also firm when he has to. And most importantly for Northerners, someone who tries his best to honor truth.

    Jon is the one person who told them what was coming, the one person who did his best to protect them by procuring the help necessary and he didn’t give up on them. That is what they have seen in terms of his leadership and on top of that, for most he’s the son of Eddard Stark, someone who was truly respected in the region. The audience is a different matter because we understand that some of these qualities are also his weaknesses, especially when he’s surrounded by people who more often than not are moved by opposing self-interests which he feels the need to appease. Jon lacks the malice necessary to rule in a nest of vipers. He would be a great ruler for the North, not so much for Westeros, unless surrounded by those who can balance his weaknesses. I would say Jon as King with Davos, Sansa, Tyrion and Sam as his council might the best Westeros could hope for in a continued monarchical system. Jon would be miserable no doubt but he was never going to get a happy ending.

  344. Netheb,

    The more desperate Dany gets, the worse things she’ll do. We’re being shown that with each subsequent episode. Without the parentage being revealed, Dany is willing to pretend that everything go on as it did before the reveal. However, now that the reveal is public information, Dany will most likely become more desperate and consider more extreme options, not less.

    People who are cornered are much more dangerous.

    Sansa also knows that Jon doesn’t want the throne anyway. ANy contender for the IT will be seen as a rival to other contenders, so she needlessly put Jon in harm’s way for her own ambitions.

    Personally, I think she wants both Jon and Dany out of the way.

  345. Mango,

    I’ve seen some speculation on this, and I have to say, there couldn’t be a more awful way to end Arya’s arc than this. It’s unspeakable, and a total disservice to her character. Not unlike Arya taking Jaime’s face to kill Cersei is a total disservice to Jaime’s arc.

    First of all, Sandor doesn’t need any extra motivation or reason to kill his brother, so this is just gratuitous. We also don’t need any more reason to hate The Mountain. Furthermore, it doesn’t add anything interesting or meaningful to Arya’s arc. And where does that leave Sandor? To me it just doesn’t make any sense given that Arya is a primary character with a full arc, and Sandor is a secondary/supporting character (albeit with an arc of his own, but not a main character-type arc).

    As I’ve said before, Arya is “Mercy” (one of her aliases in both book and show).

    And lastly, all the main characters that we have spent years with deserve an interesting and meaningful ending to their arcs. Not this nonsense. I can’t imagine this is the ending GRRM has in mind for his wife’s favourite character, and his own second favourite character.

    So in short, no. 🙂

  346. Inga,

    How did Sansa and Arya breached guest right? Did they killed Daenerys and her people in Winterfell and I somehow missed that? The Freys broke guest right, they slaughtered their “guests” after breaking bread with them. Sansa and Arya did no such thing.

  347. Mr Derp,

    Exactly. It feels like Varys and Sansa consider Jon a better option, simply because they expect to bend him to their will.

  348. Trevor Estren:

    The truth is : once you digest the hollywood spectacle and let the adrenaline comes down, none of the last 2 episodes make any sense whatsoever. Tyrion can walk up to his sister and her dozens of archers, same sister who just hired Bronn to kill him remember, and leave without harm, because.. drama? It’s all it is now : contrived drama, characters only used as plot devices for spectacle, and consequence-free actions. The anti-GoT basically.

    Sorry to come back to this so late.

    I share some of your concerns about “Hollywood drama” but I want to focus on that Tyrion/Cersei moment.

    Book!Cersei would have killed him in a hearbeat but Show!Cersei is more nuanced and way smarter.

    Cersei wants to be seen as the “good queen”, as opposed to Dany, the “mad queen”, the foreign conqueror who roasts people with dragonfire. She was smart enough to stick to her propaganda instead of instant, personal gratification.

    When Tyrion stepped past Qyburn and the Lannister archers nocked and drew, I was, WTF, this is a parley! There are rules, even Cersei knows them!

    She raised her hand, looked triumphant (finally I got him!)… and let her hand fall. There are a couple of explanations.

    One is that she just couldn’t bring herself to kill her brother – she’s stayed away from it twice in S7, with Tyrion and Jaime. Either she loves both her brothers or she’s mindful of the strong cultural belief that none is as accursed as a kinslayer. But what was that Bronn thing, then?

    Another explanation is that she was very, very tempted. See the triumphant expression. But remembered her propaganda. “I’m supposed to be the good, reasonable queen. I cannot kill an envoy at a parley, it wouldn’t look good.” Cersei remembered, realised it’d break their cultural rules about parleys. It wouldn’t look good, not to her allies (are there any?), not even to Harry Strickland and the Golden Company. Not to the smallfolk, not to any lords of Westeros. So she stayed her hand.

    Killing Missandei was OK by parley rules. Cersei had delivered her ultimatum, her terms weren’t met, she had to follow through her threat or look a fool (like the Freys did at Riverrun when they threatened to hang Edmure and never went through with it and the Blackfish just laughed at them).

    Cersei knew Missandei was one of Dany’s advisors – she’d seen her at the Dragonpit summit – but she probably didn’t know how personal it was to Dany. Or to one of Dany’s main generals, Grey Worm, for that matter.

    Anyway, parley rules and keeping up her propaganda explains Cersei’s actions, IMO. For a few moments, I was tricked into thinking filial love had something to do with it, but there’s the Bronn thing. So, no.

  349. Jon’s story mirrors Maester Aemon’s.

    When Aemon Targaryen declined the throne, he gave it to his younger brother and joined the Night’s Watch so that no one would ever use him as a pawn against the new King Aegon V.

    Varys says: “Have you ever considered that the best ruler might be someone who doesn’t want to rule?”

    We already know that Jon doesn’t want to rule, but you know who else doesn’t “want” to rule? Yep, Bran. The one who recently said that he doesn’t “want” anymore. He also knows the entire history of Westeros, which, to me, qualifies as the wisdom that Tywin said was such an important aspect to being a successful ruler.

    Jon and Bran may not be brothers anymore, but they might as well be. I have a feeling this is where the ending is headed. Jon will go back up North while Bran will rule Westeros. Not sure where this leaves Sansa though. I would assume QITN.

    Jon is the Frodo of Westeros. In the end, his wounds will never heal (the ones that still hurt after Tormund playfully hit his chest scars) and he’ll disappear into the Undying Lands of Westeros, in other words, the real North.

  350. Inga,

    Arya and Sansa breached the guest right?? wth? Jon “asked Dny to legitimize Gendry”?? “asked Tormund to raise a toast to Dany”?
    Where does that come from? lmao get a grip please.
    While we’re at it, did Jon also ask to be emotionally blackmailed to keep the truth from his family too?

    I don’t know how Dny learned about Gendry but it’s obvious that Jon didn’t mention him. Look at that worried look he gives Davos. Jon, just like everyone else, thought Gendry was about to be barbecued.
    Jon only told his siblings that Dny would “be a good queen”, in that same voice Sansa used to say that she was loyal to her “beloved” Joffrey. He’s never said anything when Dnerys told him about her feelings. He doesn’t love her, at least not anymore.

  351. Enharmony1625,

    I have actually not seen the speculation – the thought just occurred randomly. I hope it does not happen.

    As for all the characters getting a deserved end – well, I hope so but am not counting on it.

    That said though, besides fan- service I am not even sure why Hound is going after his brother now despite the childhood fire incident. He could have fought him all his life – why now vs any other time.

  352. Mr Derp,

    I agree that Jon seems to mirror Maester Aemon. I also think what Aemon said about love and duty may come into play. Jon may well choose duty over love and be that 1 man in 10,000. Ned didn’t. His duty was to tell Robert (the king) the truth but he chose the love of his sister and lied to keep Jon safe. Mind you, I’m still not convinced Jon will live.

    If Bran can’t be ‘Lord of anything’ then how can he be King? If that’s where this is going then I’ve been watching a completely different tv show! Although, I do wonder what Bran’s purpose is now. He would be a good advisor, I suppose, but he hasn’t done anything to help Jon and Dany.

  353. Mr Derp: If her number 1 concern was simply her family being safe then she never would’ve told Tyrion about Jon’s parentage. Jon is pretty much a dead man walking now.

    I disagree on that point. Sansa said that she didn’t want Jon going south because she fears for his safety and I believe that was genuine.

    Obviously she would prefer Jon on the throne, but I believe telling Tyrion was primarily about protecting Jon.

    Now he has allies. Now he has an ace up his sleeve that can be independently verified. Now Dany’s attitude towards him will be scrutinised by people with the power to influence her. Now there may be people willing to put themselves on the line or manipulate situations to protect him ahead of her.

    Sansa may be hoping to put Jon on the throne or her decision to inform Tyrion may backfire terribly. But I think under the circumstances her primary concern was to protect Jon.

    Tyrion had already reassured her that her authority in The North was all but secured (“you’ll be the true power in The North”) and yet she was still troubled. I think if a lust for power was her only concern then she wouldn’t have been so clearly torn over whether or not to tell Tyrion the truth.

    Although obviously at this point protecting Jon and gaining power for their family are not mutually exclusive.

  354. Netheb,

    If you look at the beginning part of the feast Jon leans towards Dany as if he’s going to say something. Dany then legitimises Gendry. I took the look between Jon and Davos as Davos going ‘You told her?’ as they were the only ones who knew (apart from Arya who has barely said two things to Dany).

  355. I hope all of the dragons die. Sorry. I don’t think of them as cute little pets. They are destruction. GRRM has said as much. I’d like to see Dany survive, but not the dragons. Perhaps the dragons dying allow for her to have actual children?

    I don’t know, it seems so odd to play around with her getting pregnant in season 7 to not even matter in the end. Perhaps it was meant simply to foreshadow Jon furthering the Targaryen line and not Dany.

    I’ll say once again, I’m not ready for this episode. David Nutter said there was a Red Wedding type event this season. D&D have teased a big twist at the end that GRRM told them about. Miguel Sapochnik said episodes 3-5 were basically a single story. So the climax to that story is likely to be in this episode, with the finale likely picking up the pieces and wrapping up the overall story. Right now it really looks like Dany is doomed. Just like in retrospect it was clear Robb was doomed.

  356. I’d prefer Hot Pie on the IT.

    I mean, anyone who takes the time to brown the butter, crush the sour cherries, dry the stones, get a good bottom round steak and calves’ kidneys, and take the time to make the gravy is clearly looking out for the best interests of his people.

    I mean, some people settle for plain old beef kidneys. Got no right to rule anything, them.

  357. Tyrion Pimpslap: I’ll say once again, I’m not ready for this episode. David Nutter said there was a Red Wedding type event this season. D&D have teased a big twist at the end that GRRM told them about.

    This is where I think Sansa will come up with some scheme that we’re not expecting. I could be wrong, seeing as though I’ve been wrong about a great many things on this show, but she’s the one schemer left. Assuming Varys gets barbecued next episode, of course. Everyone else has been acting like a moron this season.

  358. Mr Derp:
    The more desperate Dany gets, the worse things she’ll do.We’re being shown that with each subsequent episode.Without the parentage being revealed, Dany is willing to pretend that everything go on as it did before the reveal.However, now that the reveal is public information, Dany will most likely become more desperate and consider more extreme options, not less.
    Sansa also knows that Jon doesn’t want the throne anyway.ANy contender for the IT will be seen as a rival to other contenders, so she needlessly put Jon in harm’s way for her own ambitions. Personally, I think she wants both Jon and Dany out of the way.

    Glad to see you acknowledge how harmful Dny can be 😉
    Well it’s yet far from being public knowledge and I don’t think Varys and Tyrion are going to shout the truth for everyone to hear. Dnyerys doesn’t know they know.

    I just don’t know what the consequences of Sansa spilling the truth will be. Neither do you 😉 Sansa’s much better at the Game of thrones than any other character; even us viewers lol.
    I also think you’re a bit blinded by your dislike of her character because we’ve never seen her expressing any hunger for power. Only a desire to protect her pack, which is a different thing altogether. And this episode alone showed us how much she cares about Jon.

  359. Netheb: No. Sansa doesn’t particularly enjoy power, other that it makes her safe. She doesn’t take pleasure to subjugating people (she doesn’t subjugate them anyway), unlike a certain someone.

    Having “Power,” being the leader of people and liking it does not require or mean subjugating the people under her crushing thumb. I’m saying she likes power as in being in charge, having the authority to make the decisions, not that she wants to or would abuse that power.

  360. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    One of the most horrid things about the red wedding was killing the unborn baby.
    That’s actually been the toughest part for me to think about when it comes to Cersei.
    It sounds like she really is pregnant now (even though she should be showing alot more with the passage of time). Perhaps her death will be her own doing somehow, or if Jaime does it, at least its his own child, but I’m not sure if that makes it better.
    I definitely want to see Cersei go, but if I were King, I would have to send her to a black cell (at least until she has the baby). I can’t see killing her while she’s pregnant. It’s not the baby’s fault she’s such an awful mom.

  361. Netheb: Well it’s yet far from being public knowledge and I don’t think Varys and Tyrion aren’t going to shout the truth for everyone to hear. Dnyerys doesn’t know they know.

    Varys: “How many others know?
    Tyrion: “Including us? Eight.”
    Varys: “Well, then it’s not a secret anymore. It’s information. If a handful of people know now, hundreds will know soon.”

    Do you still wanna take the stance that the reveal is “far from public knowledge”?

    Netheb: I also think you’re a bit blinded by your dislike of her character because we’ve never seen her expressing any hunger for power. Only a desire to protect her pack, which is a different thing altogether. And this episode alone showed us how much she cares about Jon.

    Blinded by my dislike of the character? I actually don’t dislike Sansa, although I haven’t liked her very much since the Jon/Sansa reunion in season 6. To be clear, I dislike her fans much more than the character. Regardless, I’m not letting any emotions or desires do the talking for me. I’m basing everything off of objectively interpreting what I see play out on screen. Doesn’t mean I’ll be right, of course. If anything, you are blinded by your love of the character since you’re saying that she’s never expressed any hunger for power, despite the fact that she’s slowly turning into Cersei 2.0 this season, and we’ve seen her wanting to make all of the decisions for the past 2-3 seasons.

    As you said yourself, you don’t know what the consequences will be and neither do I, so we’ll just have to see how it all plays out.

  362. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I’m very nervous and even scared about the next episode as well. David Bradley (Sam) also mentioned something Red Wedding-esque this season, and now seems the time.

    I was tying myself in knots after Ep2 because all those lovely character moments had to mean that one of the interlocutors dies in Ep3, right? Instead, we got off fairly lightly in Ep3 and Ep4. So now it’s gut-punching, heart-wrenching massacre time.

    At least a couple of characters have to survive Ep5, there’s still Ep6, the finale of this whole saga, to go. Or maybe Ep6 is just a bunch of scenes of smallfolk talking about it all afterwards, Beckett-style. o_O.

  363. Clob,

    As we have seen, it takes some time to burn a ship eveven with 3 dragons. Now Dany has only Drogon, so the move you suggest would be too risky. But don’t worry: the filming spoilers imply that she’ll gonna come up with a much better idea.

    It looks like she’ll fly over Euron’s fleet, land in the main street of the city and blow the gate from within in one swoop trapping the Golden Company between her toops and dragonfire. The set photos clearly demonstrated that the gate was supposed to be blown from within. And if I am right, it looks like a pretty good battle plan. [/spoilers]

  364. Inga,

    Well at the very least I’d like Drogon to fly high overhead and drop a giant shit on Euron’s head.

  365. Clob:
    Inga,

    Well at the very least I’d like Drogon to fly high overhead and drop a giant shit on Euron’s head.

    That’s great!

    Or bomb him with half eaten goats. Dropped from that distance it would sink the fleet.

  366. Tron79:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    One of the most horrid things about the red wedding was killing the unborn baby.
    That’s actually been the toughest part for me to think about when it comes to Cersei.
    It sounds like she really is pregnant now (even though she should be showing alot more with the passage of time). Perhaps her death will be her own doing somehow, or if Jaime does it, at least its his own child, but I’m not sure if that makes it better.
    I definitely want to see Cersei go, but if I were King, I would have to send her to a black cell (at least until she has the baby). I can’t see killing her while she’s pregnant. It’s not the baby’s fault she’s such an awful mom.

    I dread the thought of Jaime having to kill a pregnant person. Oye!
    However, in war, lots of pregnant people and children are killed. We just do not see it up close as we did with Robb’s.
    Oye!
    And people do end pregnancies all the time. But oye! It is still dreadful to think about. Oye!

  367. Mango,

    But one reason for many in her fan base is that she offered vicariously enjoyment of unbridled power.

    I’m a Dany fan and like her character b/c I believe that she is trying to be a good person.
    Is that same reason you like Jaime?

  368. Fun fact: Jamie never was together with another women than his twin sister when he engaged with virgin Brienne.
    A Bittersweet end must include Jon and Dany together awaiting a baby nothing else is left to turn out sweet.

  369. Danny,

    The guest right/hospitality obligation is not only about not killing guests or hosts. At least in our real world, it implies that guests must be treated as family. That’s exactly why killing a guest equals to killing a family member and that’s exactly why whining about the necessity to share foof with guests equals to whining about the necessity to share foof with children or younger siblings. Sure, Westeros may operate under different laws, but somehow I don’t think so.

  370. krupke,

    Well, that seems to be a good reason to like her.

    I like the work that the writer seems to be doing with this character named Jaime. I am interested questions that Jaime’s storyline address such as: (i) identity, who am I meant to be?; (ii) his love/marriage/family arc; (iii) how his storyline looks at change and evolution in a redemption exploration that is very different from Theon’s redemption arc.

    I like Jaime’s duality – he has both good and bad in him – but he is using the better parts of himself more often. He has been removing the wall around who Jaime is really over the series – becoming more of himself.

  371. Mr Derp,

    Yes I know what Varys said. I maintain that the reveal is far from public knowledge. The only question is, when will Dny find out that her advisors know.

    Sorry that you can’t stand people who like Sansa’s character. I’m quite fed up with all the Sansa hate myself.

    Btw, how is Sansa turning into Cersei 2.0?
    Is it because she wanted the soldiers to recuperate? Because she spent her time planning on how to feed and provide better armour for the Northerners? Because the hardships she went through can’t let her portray a very warm exterior (look again at her smiles during the post-battle feast)? She’s fighting the hardest for Northern independence but she’s not Stark enough to you? 🙂
    Please. Cersei is using the people as human shields while Sansa acts in their interest, making sure in 8.03 that the gates are open as long as possible for the people to get to WF where they’d be safer. Learning isn’t becoming.

  372. Inga,

    You’re wrong! Go and rewatch the scene where Bran tells the story of the Rat Cook (S3E10):

    “It wasn’t for murder the gods cursed the Rat Cook, or for serving the King’s son in a pie… he killed a guest beneath his roof… that’s something the gods can’t forgive.”
    ―Bran Stark

    Guest right, at least in the show, was never about courtesy or treating your guests as part of your family. It was about host and guests not harming each other.

    The Starks might have been impolite towards Dani. But in no way they harmed her or anyone in her army.

  373. Netheb,

    We must have been watching different show: it was very clear that Jon was urging Dany to do something, and then she went with Gendry. How could she know about him? How could she know his face in the crowd? He was a random blacksmith she never had a personal interaction with. And there were only three people who were aware of Gendry’s identity: Davos, Jon and Arya. We can exclude Arya: she was geniunly surprised when Gendry came with the news of his legitimisation and she never interacted with Dany. Davos also never interacted with Dany and he wanted Gendry to keep his identity to himself: situation was complicated, as he said, and it didn’t become less complicated by Ep4. That leaves Jon who had a warm moment with Gendry, who saw his war hammer decorated with the Baratheon sigil, who could fully inderstand his desire to be recognized, etc. And there clearly was a talk between him and Dany somewhere inbetween Ep 3 and 4. So, yes: Jon was the only one who could come up with Gendry’s legitimization idea.

  374. Juri,

    So, what’s the point of sharing bread and salt with the guests, if it’s only about “not harming”?

  375. Netheb: Yes I know what Varys said. I maintain that the reveal is far from public knowledge. The only question is, when will Dny find out that her advisors know.

    The answer lies within the quote that I provided. It should be pretty clear that everyone will find out in episode 5. You realize there’s only two episodes left, yes?

    Netheb: Sorry that you can’t stand people who like Sansa’s character. I’m quite fed up with all the Sansa hate myself.

    You’re exaggerating. It shouldn’t be that difficult to discuss a fictional character objectively. It’s becoming harder to discuss Sansa with you objectively without you taking it personal. That’s why I can’t stand discussing Sansa with a lot of her fans. Not all of them are bad. Just the ones that take everything personally. My favorite character is Jon Snow, yet I am able to be objective when discussing his good and bad traits.

    Netheb: Btw, how is Sansa turning into Cersei 2.0?

    Jon Snow: “It sounds like you admire her”
    Sansa: “I learned a great deal from her”

    Sansa wears her hair the same way Cersei did when it was long. On a show where every design detail is so meticulous, this can’t be a coincidence. But it’s not just about hair.

    While Sansa surely has a ways to go until she reaches such a drastic point to be just like Cersei, there’s no ignoring the fact that she may very well be on the same path.

    Sansa’s mannerisms are similar to Cersei’s now too. I.E., the way Sansa is drinking wine.

    They both grew up dreaming about the handsome prince they’d marry some day (Rhaegar for Cersei, Joffrey for Sansa), only to forced by men into marriages they didn’t want (Robert for Cersei, Tyrion and Ramsay for Sansa). They both wound up suffering countless emotional and sexual abuses at the hands of those men before they murdered them — both with the help of animals, no less (a boar for Robert and a pack of starving hounds for Ramsay).

    Sansa’s satisfied smile as she listened to Ramsay getting torn apart has shades of Cersei’s smirk as she watched the Sept of Baelor burn. Sure, the scale of those atrocities is very different… but there’s no denying that Sansa has found herself on a slippery slope in which vengeance starts to look a lot like justice. In the Season 7 premiere, she advocates taking castles away from children as punishment for their fathers’ misdeeds.

    Sansa wasn’t wrong when she told Jon that Ned and Robb had made stupid, honorable mistakes that brought about their own downfalls. But she should be careful of overcorrecting in the other direction, lest she wind up looking in the mirror someday soon only to see Cersei Lannister staring back at her.

  376. Inga,

    Exactly that! Not being harmed while you are hosting or being a guest. If you want to think that guest rights imply host and guest sitting by the fire singing “Kumbaya”, that’s up to you. But in no way that’s how it works in the show or in the books.

    That’s why Lord Manderly waits until the Freys are gone from White Harbor to hunt them down and bake them into a “Frey Pie”
  377. Hodor,

    I really am wondering about the bittersweet ending too. I’m not sure how that is possible if Dany dies. Jon is my favorite character, but he has already died once before. He has always seemed like the one who was doomed. So in a weird way I think it would still be possible to have some sweetness if he dies and Dany lives, particularly if she is pregnant.

    If Jon lives and Dany dies, Jon is left devastated by her death and forced to take the throne, more than likely. Something we know he would hate.

    If both die, there is no sweetness in that.

  378. Inga,

    No guest right in Westeros is simply not harming the guests with whom you’ve broken bread with while they are in your house as guests and of course the guests are obliged by the same rules. Both Sansa and Daenerys are not beneath manipulating Jon, each trying to get an advantage for personal gain at his expense. Dany because she thinks the throne belongs to her by birth right (it really doesn’t, even if you take Jon out of the equation) and the other one because she realized that the only way to be safe is to gain independence and have a say in their destiny. While I think part of Sansa is looking to protect Jon from his own naivete, we all know that she is capable of deceiving and using him. Neither lady has really taken into account Jon as a person, no one has asked him how he feels about everything. One is telling him to deny/forget his identity (the one thing he has struggled with his entire life) and the other one is pushing him to take on something he doesn’t really want to.

  379. Mr Derp: Sansa’s satisfied smile as she listened to Ramsay getting torn apart has shades of Cersei’s smirk as she watched the Sept of Baelor burn. Sure, the scale of those atrocities is very different… but there’s no denying that Sansa has found herself on a slippery slope in which vengeance starts to look a lot like justice. In the Season 7 premiere, she advocates taking castles away from children as punishment for their fathers’ misdeeds.

    I feel the need to nitpick with you there. Leaving the castles in the hands of the children was a bad idea. Precisely because they are children makes it a bad idea on its own. Just look at Ned of the cursed name. Sansa grasped the point that in a time of war, they needed strong and loyal men in those positions. Ones who would fight for them and also do it well. Punishing the children as individuals would have been uncalled for, but punishing their Houses and confiscating the lands was totally a reasonable move.

  380. Clob,

    Even if dany is queen it are her people. Jon is still a snow legally. Bran made it clear he can’t be lord because he is the 3er. Meaning that Sansa is warden of the north right now. So it are her people. And I think it’s a good sign that she wanted to stay with her people. She rather died with her people against the army of the dead instead of hiding in the crypts. Luckily Arya let her get sense that she should be there.

    Dee Stark,

    For me there can be dragon eggs. And that drogon become a parent. But after the wR with cersei. Not some deux ex machin where drogons baby safe the day.

    But what if drogon will die and in episode 6 dany find 3 new dragon eggs.

  381. Emily: I feel the need to nitpick with you there. Leaving the castles in the hands of the children was a bad idea. Precisely because they are children makes it a bad idea on its own. Just look at Ned of the cursed name. Sansa grasped the point that in a time of war, they needed strong and loyal men in those positions. Ones who would fight for them and also do it well. Punishing the children as individuals would have been uncalled for, but punishing their Houses and confiscating the lands was totally a reasonable move.

    It’s a good debate that has points on both sides, but which strong and loyal men should they have used to take over the Karstarks and Umbers castles though? As far as I recall, which could be wrong, everyone who fought for the North during the BOTB and survived already has a stronghold in the North except the Wildlings. I don’t think giving those castles over to the Wildlings would’ve gone over well at all. So, who should’ve Jon given them to?

    He gave the Karstarks and Umbers one last chance to be loyal to the Starks and they accepted. That kind of bond buys more loyalty than money or the promise of more castles, IMO.

    Most of the North failed to support the Starks after the Red Wedding. Actually, almost everyone did, so loyalty in the North is a bit of a myth, I’m afraid. Both sides had a point but Sansa took a more vengeful position. If she’s going to punish anyone in the North that failed to support the Starks at one point or another then there would be no one left.

  382. Mr Derp,

    I think she told tyrion because she wants to protect her brother. She is afraid once dany sits on the throne, she will murder Jon for it to protect danys claim. (which is redicelious but I can see why Sansa and Arya would think that)

    By telling tyrion she can make sure Jon sits on the throne and be safe from dany.

  383. Kevin1989,

    I don’t necessarily think Sansa was intentionally trying to put Jon in danger with the reveal to Tyrion, but she had to know it’s going to put Jon in danger one way or another.

    There’s nothing safe about pursuing the Iron Throne. It’s called “The Great Game” for a reason. Even if Jon doesn’t want the throne he’s still the rightful heir. That alone puts Jon in a dangerous position.

  384. Dee Stark,
    The dragon roar we hear in the trailer when Euron is looking at the sky is not Drogon’s. My 20 years of experience as a musician can tell this with absolute accuracy. This is a higher pitched sound, Drogon’s is deeper. It does resemble Drogon’s and Rhaegal’ s cry when they were young, in the first seasons. Not Viserion’s, his was always more like a screech. There are 3 options: they changed Drogon’ s roar intentionally to make us wonder about it, Drogon suffers from an severe case of dragon flu, or…. (insert any plot involving new dragons, eggs, deux ex machina, etc)

  385. Mr Derp,

    And that was exactly what Arya wanted to do to the Northern Lords that suggested they should have supported Sansa instead of Jon, i.e. she wanted to behead them. Sansa understood that if you behead all your allies every time they express a grievance, you will soon run out of allies.

    Btw, I agree… Northern Exceptionalism has always been a myth.

  386. Off-note, it really seems all S8 episodes are getting heavily downvoted now on IMDB, even the first two which had a really good rating. It’s so weird.

  387. Mr Derp,

    As you say, it’s difficult to discuss Sansa’s character objectively 😉 You’ll notice that now that Arya sides with her sister, some people straight up say that “the Stark kids are bitter, damaged and manipulative”.

    You’re basing your Sansa=Cersei 2.0 arguments mostly on… hair, drinks and past abuse?

    – Sansa was also said to wear her hair the same way that Dnerys does. It’s also very close to the way her aunt Lyanna wore hers. Arya also twists braids in her hair too, she just has shorter hair.
    – Sansa was seen drinking alcohol like.. 3 times in this series? It’s the first time she’s shown to actually enjoy it lol. You’ll notice that everyone was getting very drunk around her too.
    – Sansa, just like many girls her age, used to dream of a handsome prince to marry. Jon was very much into songs and heroes at the same age, yet he is Cersei 2.0?
    – One thing I agree on, Sansa’s smile upon killing Ramsey was worrying. But it’s been a while ago, and since that time she has never displayed any sign of cruelty or vengefulness. She gave Littlefinger a trial, was shown to be conflicted (but not sorry) about his death. And we also saw her and the little Umber Lord working perfectly well together.

    So yeah… I’m sorry but while there may be tiny details that Sansa and Cersei have in common, their demeanors up until now can’t be more different.

  388. Netheb,

    I’m not so sure Littlefinger’s trial could really be considered much of a trial, but that’s another conversation altogether.

    When the shit goes down in the next 2 episodes don’t say I didn’t warn you about Sansa 😉

  389. Inga,

    If you watch the inside hbo season 8 episode 4, D&D stated that it was Dany who came up with it, and it was not a symbol of good faith, but a symbol of power, they stated that she did it to show she had the power to do it as the queen. It was not done for Gendry but to show she is the queen.

    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    What if Drogon die and in the final somebody finds 3 new eggs somewhere. I think that could be a bitter sweet ending for Dany, all her dragons die but she finds a new egg. Personally I don’t hope it will happen.

    Clob: Tyrion Pimp

    I’m all for that. Shit will hit the fan next episode.

    krupke,

    Nobody is saying that Dany is not a good person. Nobody is denying that she did great things.

  390. Mr Derp,

    Which is I think the reason Arya left for Kingslanding. Was there ever a hint that she was planning to head to Kingslanding for the dragon-lion bowl? I found it interesting that we see her head South right after learning the truth about Jon. Arya and Sansa likely had their own little planning session, the goal: protect Jon. I don’t think Sansa planned on revealing the truth to Tyrion, you can see her struggling with it. Her voice breaks when she tells Tyrion she doesn’t want Jon heading south into all that danger. Then Tyrion tells her that Jon is not a Stark which triggers her and she decides to roll the dice.

  391. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I’ll say once again, I’m not ready for this episode. David Nutter said there was a Red Wedding type event this season. D&D have teased a big twist at the end that GRRM told them about. Miguel Sapochnik said episodes 3-5 were basically a single story. So the climax to that story is likely to be in this episode, with the finale likely picking up the pieces and wrapping up the overall story. Right now it really looks like Dany is doomed. Just like in retrospect it was clear Robb was doomed.

    No. No no no no. I knew of John Bradley’s loose reference to the Red Wedding but not THIS! Not in the upcoming episode! I’m not ready! I had hope! Hope that my very strong denial offers! Just no. No!!! No no no no nooooo!!! No! NO.

    Welp, the already anxiety-induced 100 calories a day becomes 50. Game of Thrones is the best weight loss plan ever.

  392. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I think it’s difficult to see the sweet anyway. I no longer expect Dany to be pregnant and tbh I think she is now probably a goner, one way or another. Which is very bitter.

    I suppose the only way it could be ‘sweet’ with Jon alive, is Jon takes the throne even though he doesn’t want it. Unlike Robert Baratheon, he does his duty and Westeros starts to prosper. A Dream of Spring. More bitter for Jon’s character but sweet for the rest of Westeros?

    That’s all I can think of with Jon living.

  393. Mango,

    And don’t forgot that his bad habits are a burden on him. As he stated to Brienne: She’s hateful, and so am I.

    Somebody who says he is hateful hates that part of himself, they don’t enjoy it like Cersei does, he despise that part. That means his morality is pointing in the good direction and he wants to be better. Everyone has forgiven him for what he has done, Bran, Sansa, Brienne, Jon, Tyrion. But he will never forgive himself.

    And I hope like with Tyrion somebody will call him a good person before he dies. (but rather let him live after that)

    Mr Derp,

    That’s true, it could harm him, but I still think (and maybe I’m wrong) that Sansa is doing it to protect her family. Maybe she will be a LF/Cersei type from outsiders, but I don’t see her trying to harm Jon.

    I think even that the show is about changing characters. Jaime from man without honor to man with honor. Brienne to not desirable to one who is loved by even 2 man. Theon had his redemption arc. Bran from emotional to a robot. Sansa from spoiled brat to one that is very loyal to her family. Jon from naive to the one knowing a lot. Only Cersei is somehow the same, from worse to even worse.

  394. Danny,

    I thought Sansa seemed quite shaken in that scene. The fact her father lied, hurt her mother with the lie and protected Jon due to his parentage would make her question a lot. That was why I was a bit annoyed we didn’t see Sansa and Arya’s reactions.

    Sansa barely recognised Tyrion was there at all at first. I agree that ‘Jon isn’t a Stark’ triggered her to tell Tyrion the truth. I do think she told Tyrion to try and protect Jon but I’m not sure she counted on Tyrion telling Varys! Also, it did highlight that Dany’s fight is now based on a lie. Where have we heard that before?

  395. Ugh. All this talk of another Red Wedding and a big twist has my mind running this way and that like a chicken with its head cut off.

    Will Dany and Jon combined defeat the GC and take KL? Cersei and Euron will hopefully be killed too. Will they then have a big celebration in advance of Dany being crowned Queen? At this celebration, will Dany be poisoned by Varys or by someone on his behalf? When the deed is done, will Sansa receive a raven scroll from Varys telling her that Dany is dead? Will she smile her evil smile?

  396. Ralu,

    Or Sansa finally become Dark phoenix and is protecting her family right there. Hopefully she brough her gang with her.

    Lord Parramandas,

    Hopefully imdb course correct it. And delete the troll accounts. And ban their IP adresses.

    Mr Derp: W

    When the shit goes down in the next 2 episodes don’t say I didn’t warn you about Ser pounce 😉

    It’s all know, the cats will take over Westeros.

    But all seriousness, we don’t know what will happen, some think Sansa has something up her sleeve, some think Dany. Maybe both, Maybe neither. The one thing I do know is. Don’t you fucking dare trust Cersei. But I don’t think anyone does.

  397. As for the Red wedding type of event, my possibilities:
    – Cersei will die. And the how will be the event, maybe she takes them with her. blowing KL up.
    – Burning of 10.000 civilians if it was about the dead count.
    – Dany killing Jon (or Trying to)(probably not)
    – Arya killing Dany. What if Varys tell Arya: Dany wants to kill your brother, save him.

  398. Danny,

    Thank you. I completely agree how you interpret that scene. I’m glad that Sansa tried to find a way out this for Jon. She’s playing the Game of thrones on his behalf.

  399. kevin1989: The one thing I do know is. Don’t you fucking dare trust Cersei. But I don’t think anyone does.

    Lol, Someone really should tell that to Tyrion. He seems to have forgotten that the past couple of seasons. I wonder how many more times he’s going try and use negotiation as a tactic with her. He’s already tried it two times too many.

  400. kevin1989,

    Hahahaha, considering the recent turn of events, I wouldn’t rule out this option😅. Just hope she brings Magneto with her, that’s a guy who could break the Mountain and the whole GC. Heck, he could even destroy those brilliant scorpions who can hit a moving target from a moving ship from miles away. Problem solved, everyone gets their happy ending!

  401. When the shit goes down in the next 2 episodes don’t say I didn’t warn you about Ser pounce

    It’s all know, the cats will take over Westeros.

    Oh, it all makes sense now! Ser Pounce and the Catspaw Dagger. 🙂

  402. Danny,

    I thought Sansa seemed quite shaken in that scene. The fact her father lied, hurt her mother with the lie and protected Jon due to his parentage would make her question a lot. That was why I was a bit annoyed we didn’t see Sansa and Arya’s reactions.

    Sansa barely recognised Tyrion was there at all at first. I agree that ‘Jon isn’t a Stark’ triggered her to tell Tyrion the truth. I do think she told Tyrion to try and protect Jon but I’m not sure she counted on Tyrion telling Varys! Also, it did highlight that Dany’s fight is now based on a lie. Where have we heard that before?

    This went through moderation and was deleted and I’m not sure why.

  403. Unfortunately, there’s a rumor going around that major plot points for episodes 5 and 6 have leaked.

    I have no idea if they’re legit or not, but the source is apparently the same one that correctly predicted what would happen in episode 4 before it aired, so be careful out there on social media!

  404. A post of mine went through moderation and was deleted. I didn’t say anything bad. No swearing or anything that could be offensive. Definitely no spoilers. I’m confused.

  405. Ghostgirl:
    A post of mine went through moderation and was deleted. I didn’t say anything bad. No swearing or anything that could be offensive. Definitely no spoilers. I’m confused.

    Same thing happened to me a couple of hours ago. I typed out an annoyingly long post, pressed ‘post comment’ but then the screen loaded and it wasn’t there. No message to say that it was in moderation or it was deleted. Strange.

  406. Che,

    I had that happen a couple of days ago. It never even went into moderation it just reloaded the page without my comment. Mine was also pretty long as well! Yet, some of my other comments posted fine.

  407. Che: Same thing happened to me a couple of hours ago. I typed out an annoyingly long post, pressed ‘post comment’ but then the screen loaded and it wasn’t there. No message to say that it was in moderation or it was deleted. Strange.

    Yea that’s happened to me too. I’ll randomly get a string of posts that won’t show up, except for the post where I say that nothing is posting, lol. It almost feels like it’s on purpose sometimes, lol, but I doubt it is.

    After it happened, I always make a point to type my post in a Word document before cutting and pasting to WOTW.

  408. Mr Derp,

    Yeah. I may have to bow out of all things thrones until at least after this next episode. Leaks like this have always seemed very spiteful. It started towards the end of season 5, and has happened every season since. People really are assholes.

    I’ve seen two headlines talking about the leaks, and one had to include a follow up of

    “And people are outraged at what happens!”

    Of course, the people most likely to read spoilers are likely people who are already angry with the show.

  409. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    The outrage is strong in this fandom

    Seeking spoilers has become like a drug addiction for some. They just cannot live without knowing plot points for fictional shows before they air. I think “Spoilers Anonymous” needs to be a thing, if it isn’t already.

  410. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I’m hoping this may be a calculated leak. It seems the show episodes have been leaked before viewing. Episode 4 didn’t contain too many surprises (a few that were surprising but didn’t totally ruin everything or the endgame) so I wonder if they have ‘leaked’ some false ideas.

  411. I think it was in another thread or maybe earlier in this one somebody commented that Kit said in an interview that the ending was ‘disappointing’. I thought that would be weird for a cast memeber to say that, especially as I’ve seen many other interviews where he has said the exact opposite. Having just seen that interview, he says it completely ‘deadpan’ and this may just be a British thing, but that should not be taken seriously.

    The first thing I did…was laugh. It may just be his British sense of humour where often we say something completely seriously or ‘deadpan’ and it, in fact, means the opposite.

  412. Mr Derp,

    You forget one thing: He drinks and he knows things. (unfortunately not what Cersei is planned)

    Ralu,

    And then we get a Storm of between Stormy and Euron.

    Renly's Peach: Oh, it all makes sense now!Ser Pounce and the Catspaw Dagger.🙂

    Drogon won’t stand a chance.

    Mr Derp,

    I wonder how they know what happened, means that somebody working on the show is leaking in, but why.

    Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Of course, the people most likely to read spoilers are likely people who are already angry with the show.

    So true, they didn’t like season 8, so no one would. Sad people who don’t give 2 shits about other peoples fun if they don’t have fun.

  413. Dee Stark:
    I have had three differentpeople ask me… what if there are more dragons????? What if they laid eggs???

    That would be lovely. I would hate to see the end of the dragons. Plus, Jon needs one of his own again.

    What I keep thinking is, what if the AotD aren’t all completely dead? What if someone has created a new NK with dragonglass to the heart? My brain is about to explode, lol.

  414. Episode title thoughts:
    – city of ash
    – queen of the ashes
    – The things I do for love!

    Somebody another one?

    And I hope we end episode 3 with the lannister theme soundtrack. Remains my favorite of the show.

  415. Renly's Peach: That would be lovely.I would hate to see the end of the dragons.Plus, Jon needs one of his own again.

    What I keep thinking is, what if the AotD aren’t all completely dead?What if someone has created a new NK with dragonglass to the heart? My brain is about to explode, lol.

    So, with my thoughts moving North…..I wonder, are the Children of the Forest all dead, or is it possible that there are more somewhere?

  416. Ghostgirl: A post of mine went through moderation and was deleted. I didn’t say anything bad. No swearing

    Swearing is accepted, and sometimes desired on this site! It doesn’t get moderated out. Just for example: Fuck 🙂

    Almost all of the time on this site when posts are labeled as ‘in moderation’ and then disappear it’s a software glitch and not the doing of human moderation. It comes and goes and is annoying when it happens, but don’t take it personal. They don’t usually manually delete posts unless you’re being excessively rude to someone or post spoilers.

  417. Renly's Peach,

    Jon sent Ghost with Tormund and then lost Rhaegal. I wonder if that was to signify that Jon still doesn’t truly know who he is. (Btw, still upset about Ghost.)

    I honestly thought the AOTD wouldn’t be defeated in episode 3 but I don’t see them coming back now.

  418. Clob,

    Thanks Clob. 🙂 Just wondered whether I’d used a trigger word or something. It was just a bit irritating.

  419. Ghostgirl:
    Renly’s Peach,

    Jon sent Ghost with Tormund and then lost Rhaegal. I wonder if that was to signify that Jon still doesn’t truly know who he is. (Btw, still upset about Ghost.)

    I think he sent Ghost north with Tormund because if Jon had his wish, that’s where he’d rather be. He’ll be miserable if he has to take the throne, although I don’t think he will.

  420. Yes, I have also lost a longish post.

    Sigh.

    Is there any character that is behaving normally at the moment?

    Cersei and Euron seem their usual selves. Sansa is really acting very clear minded.
    Jon is dimmer than usual. Arya left WF without saying bye. Daenerys’ face is all bent out of shape. Bran, is he all done now?

    Jaime is off to do something unclear. If he wants to make up and bed Cersei then he will have to kill Euron. If he wants to kill Cersei, he will have to kill Mountain. With one hand, neither path will go well. And on top of it, he upset Brienne. Well, I suppose it could be worse, he did attack Brienne with a sword back in an earlier season. She may need to beat him up as she did before.

  421. Kevin1989,

    We will Scorch You
    Drogon bites the dust (Too soon after Rhaegal?)
    Jon Plot Armour Forever
    Don’t Stop Me Now – I’m having such a good time, I’m outta control!
    Targaryen Rhapsody

    (Inspired by Queen.)

  422. Renly's Peach: What I keep thinking is, what if the AotD aren’t all completely dead? What if someone has created a new NK with dragonglass to the heart? My brain is about to explode, lol

    If you never saw it, a couple of times I posted a ridiculous scenario about how maybe Furdik didn’t take over for Brake playing the Night King but that there were always actually TWO of them, each controlling their own army. It was always tongue-in-cheek, but man would Tormund’s pants be really shit in if another one shows up!!

  423. Renly’s Peach,

    Or more morbidly. As we know Jon is a warg. Once their human body dies, their soul transfers to the animal. Perhaps George named Jon’s direwolf Ghost for a reason?

  424. Mango,

    Davos and Pod are still solid. 🙂

    But I agree, everyone is acting strangely. Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, Jaime. Like I’ve said before, I’m even surprised about Tormund. Bear Island is Mormont-less. House Umber and House Bolton are gone. I would have imagined weddings and official transfers going on to repopulate the houses of all the Stark allies.
    And Wildlings were trying to get over the wall even before the WW woke up again, so I’m not sure why they’re all just heading back like it’s no big deal. Tormund joked it was because the women “down here” don’t like him, but I’m pretty sure there are zero living women where they came from. Everyone north of Winterfell was in the NK’s army right? Unless they were hiding in that cave Ygritte wanted to stay in.

  425. ShameShameShame:
    Kevin1989,

    Dracarys

    You know, that’s a really solid guess imo. We’ve heard it said so many times during the series and it can be assumed that this episode may be the most fitting for the title of, “Dracarys.” Especially after it being the final word of E4.

  426. Renly's Peach: That would be lovely.I would hate to see the end of the dragons.Plus, Jon needs one of his own again.

    What I keep thinking is, what if the AotD aren’t all completely dead?What if someone has created a new NK with dragonglass to the heart? My brain is about to explode, lol.

    I highly doubt that for several reasons.

    1. It requires not just dragon glass to the heart, but also magic from the cotf. As far as we have been shown all the cotf are gone. It would be weird to introduce new ones at the end.

    2. I really don’t see D&D or GRRM ending this thing on a cliffhanger. And that is exactly what it would be. There wouldn’t be time to deal with the new NK. It would be way too tempting for HBO to create a follow on show, dealing with this. Everyone involved (except maybe HBO) wants to wrap this story up.

    3. It would really bad story telling, unless you were planning on a successor show, which from everything we have been told, they are not.

    I know some people are really disappointed that the WW and NK threat was dealt with the way it was and I can understand why. I just think we all need to realize that they are gone and that the show will end with the human drama.

  427. Clob,

    No, I hadn’t read that. Interesting theory.

    Although, the only thing good about there still being a NK, if that should happen, is that we might get to see Tormund and Ghost again. 🙂

  428. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Renly’s Peach,

    Or more morbidly. As we know Jon is a warg. Once their human body dies, their soul transfers to the animal. Perhaps George named Jon’s direwolf Ghost for a reason?

    Except we haven’t seen Jon warg into Ghost on the show, have we?

  429. JSchmeh,

    (I’m not really thinking the WW or NK will be back)

    but…

    If you don’t like the “fresh made” NK idea, nor the idea of there having already been another NK elsewhere… how about the idea that the NK we’ve been playing with was simply the general or son of the “highest power,” and that dude shows up?

    I’m just throwing junk out there 🙂

  430. JSchmeh: I highly doubt that for several reasons.

    1. It requires not just dragon glass to the heart, but also magic from the cotf. As far as we have been shown all the cotf are gone. It would be weird to introduce new ones at the end.

    2. I really don’t see D&D or GRRM ending this thing on a cliffhanger. And that is exactly what it would be. There wouldn’t be time to deal with the new NK. It would be way too tempting for HBO to create a follow on show, dealing with this. Everyone involved (except maybe HBO) wants to wrap this story up.

    3. It would really bad story telling, unless you were planning on a successor show, which from everything we have been told, they are not.

    I know some people are really disappointed that the WW and NK threat was dealt with the way it was and I can understand why. I just think we all need to realize that they are gone and that the show will end with the human drama.

    I’m definitely not one of those people. I’m glad to have seen the last of the ice zombies. I’ve just been trying to think of all the twists they could spring on us at the end.

  431. RG,

    Yes, Davos and Pod are still solid.

    And I imagine that Hot Pie is as well.

    Yes, it does seem that Tormund and his folks can stay where the Umbers and other families lived.

  432. All I know is, I will be p*ssed if we don’t get to see Hot Pie one last time. Perhaps someone should get him back to KL so he can be the royal baker for whomever sits on the throne. Or he could come to WinterHell to work in their kitchens. Please don’t leave him at that inn, where his culinary talents are sorely wasted.

  433. Renly’s Peach,

    Oh no, not wasted! The Crossroad Inn will become a 5-stars-location with 3-Michelinstars-kitchen, people will pilgrimage there to indulge in culinaric consumption! Sure as butter has to be browned!

  434. Hot Pie is the sweet part of the ending of this story.

    He is making a sugar and cinnamon version of his bread. To be served at the new Starbuck location at an expansion of the Inn. Special discount for persons in armour.

  435. Renly’s Peach,

    Fair enough. My personal favorite at the moment is there being baby dragons. I really don’t think there will be, but it would be fun to see the internet burn down with all the people complaining. 😉

    Or Sansa on the throne. The amount of toxic hate that would create would be spectacular. 🤔

  436. kevin1989: Nobody is saying that Dany is not a good person.

    Eh, I wouldn’t go that far.

    She killed more people than Walter White. And I don’t think anyone can claim he was a good person.

    Spoilers for Breaking Bad follow.

    WW:
    *manufactured drugs
    *killed about two dozen people, all drug dealers and murderers, mostly out of self preservation, preferred method of killing: quick (gun, explosions, stabbings)
    *poisoned a child,
    *indirectly caused a plane crash
    *huge ego

    DT:
    *killed thousands of people for various reasons, mostly slavers/soldiers, but some who were quite possibly innocent. Preferred methods of killing: slow and/or very painful (burning, crucifying)
    *forced someone into marriage
    *indirectly killed a child,
    *arguably bigger ego
    *final tally TBC

    I’m having a little trouble deciding who comes out better. For the time being Dany, but not by much. I’ll give her credit for her good intentions.

    So Dany being a GOOD person? errrrrrr….

    I’m not so sure. Let’s talk again in a week and a half.

  437. Mango:
    Hot Pie is the sweet part of the ending of this story.

    He is making a sugar and cinnamon version of his bread. To be served at the new Starbuck location at an expansion of the Inn. Special discount for persons in armour.

    Oh, that’s right. Because if they got armor on, they’re a knight. Generally speaking. And knights don’t get paid.

  438. krupke: Yikes. I’m done

    Good. It seems that the concept of trying to do the right thing in a horrible system is something that goes beyond your capabilities to understand.

    So if I buy a slave in such a society, wait on them hand and foot, give them everything I can give them, never ask them to work and I publically oppose slavery and advocate for it to be abolished, then I’m a terrible person?

    Well, then I guess I’m a terrible person.

    I’m done here too.

    krupke:
    King in the North East,

    But you do seem to be claiming that her impulses are bad. Listening to her advisors and choosing certain advisors is also an impulse. Deciding to actively participate in abolishingslavery is an impulse. Choosing to save Jon is an impulse. Trying to structure things so the mereenese can choose their own leaders is an impulseI’m not going to judge her more harshly than any other characters I like for doing “wrong things” for the “right reason”Ned killed an unarmed mentally distraught man in episode one. Tyrion used wildfire on people. Jon killed a man begging him for Mercy and a young boy. Tormund participated in massacres of farmfolk and townfolk. I like all of them, but none of this stuff was “good”

    Ned and Jon executed those people because it was the law, not because they wanted to. I thought that was clear.

    Deserting the Nights Watch or disobeying an order from the LC is punishable by death. They had no choice. It was the law.

    Tyrion used wildfire on an army about to invade his city. I think this files under war casualties.

    I agree, Tormund did terrible things. His reasons were, I think, understandable, but yes, he did many terrible things.

    I never claimed that all of her impulses were bad. Just that her impulses to burn cities are. I don’t get why you keep making it about something else.

    For instance, if someone has an impulse to rape, that doesn’t mean that every single other impulse they have is also bad. But it does mean that they have a REALLY BIG PROBLEM concerning that particular impulse. An even bigger one if they act on it.

    That’s ALL I’ve ever said.

  439. Mango:
    Hot Pie is the sweet part of the ending of this story.

    He is making a sugar and cinnamon version of his bread. To be served at the new Starbuck location at an expansion of the Inn. Special discount for persons in armour.

    Ha ha!

    Although we’ve seen that WF already has a coffee shop, so he just needs to head north and apply. Brienne can vouch for his baking skills.

  440. King in the North East,

    You clearly don’t understand the meaning of context, do you? You select the scenes of both shows that are convenient to you, strip them of all context, setting, character motivation and give your judgement. On the other hand, you never frame Dany’s actions within the GoT universe and compare them with morally questionable, or outright, awful actions of dozens of other characters in this series.

    You want to prove that Dany is the worst person there is on GoT. Ok. If you are so sure about a character being evil, why bother to prove that? To each his own. Perhaps you’ll be proven right in the last two episodes. I wanted a more satisfying ending for the character, after her arc until the end of season 7 – my view is based in all her scenes until “The dragon and the wolf”, not in two or three of them. I know she will die, but I hope, at least, she goes with some dignity.

    P.S: Sorry for some possible writing mistakes. English isn’t my native language.

  441. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I liked the last dragon a lot. Or something like the dragons wrath.

    Clob,

    Maybe thormund going north wasn’t about him leaving the show but for the endgame. But for now I think the ww are forever gone.

    The only thing is the magic to create a new nk is still available if they get the right circumstances to create him. So who knows.

    But I think the nk is gone (ice) that means only fire has to be death with, so I think all the dragons will be gone too. (fire)

    It would also tie in pretty well with the title of the book.and the last season would be 3 episodes defeating ice and 3 to defeat fire.

  442. Clob: If you never saw it, a couple of times I posted a ridiculous scenario about how maybe Furdik didn’t take over for Brake playing the Night King but that there were always actually TWO of them, each controlling their own army.It was always tongue-in-cheek, but man would Tormund’s pants be really shit in if another one shows up!!

    Ah! I think my addled brain did a mashup of your scenario, with lyrics to a Warren Zevon song*, that led to my crackpot thought that there could be….

    NK, Jr.

    🎶 “I saw Night King, Jr. walking with the Queen.”🎵

    * Werewolves of London (at 2:35)

  443. Tiago: You clearly don’t understand the meaning of context

    Does context really matter here?

    I’m just listing the bad things the respective characters did. I’m not going to summerize the whole plot of two shows for your convenience. You can make up your own mind, I have no problem with that.

    But if we agree that WW is a bad person and then we compare that to DT, well, I’d say it’s close.

    AND I gave her credit for her good intentions, so what more do you desire?

    Ultimately, good intentions or not, if she killed innocents, she killed innocents. No amount of context is going to make that go away.

    It’s like the people claiming WW was justified in everything he did because he had, ahem, good intentions

    (to provide for his family)
  444. Tiago: You want to prove that Dany is the worst person there is on GoT.

    That’s never been my goal and that’s not what I think. (Possibly Ramsey, btw, but I haven’t given it as much thought as you think I have.)

    Honestly, I care about the characters to the extent that they provide a good story that I can enjoy. I can easily detach myself here. I’m just looking at what’s presented to me onscreen. And based on that:

    No, I don’t think she’s been a just ruler.
    Yes, I do think she’s done terrible things.
    No, I don’t necessarily accept that she’s a good person.
    Yes, I still enjoy the character immensely.

    Dany’s heading down the path of destruction now, I think it’s foolish to deny that.

    It’s also been set up and hinted at throughout the show.

    I’m just here for the ride.

  445. Ten Bears,

    Which reminds me…

    AotD came and went so quickly in one episode this season that we all never got to finish suggestions for the NK compilation album,

    “Love Songs for the Long Night.”

    So I may just continue with that…

  446. Renly’s Peach: Ha ha!

    Although we’ve seen that WF already has a coffee shop, so he just needs to head north and apply.Brienne can vouch for his baking skills.

    The problem with the north is that no-one lives there anymore. Little Lyanna looked like she would have liked an expresso or two but she is no more. Bran may be a customer – he looks like some caffeine might do him some good. After Brienne recent experiences she is prolly having scotch on the rocks. Sansa is prolly just drinking cold water. All the highborn may buy the bread though. But the money is made on the coffee. The smallfolk cannot afford Hot Pie’s Michelin products.

    I am still thinking the Inn or more south may be the sweet spot.

  447. One of the things with the story is that the experience of fighting the dead seems not to have impacted anyone in a profound way. This is an extraordinary thing. You would think a shared experience like that would be a bonding event even if it did not solve their differences.

    Also, Jon must know that Jaime knew Rheagar but he has not even made casual inquiries without telling Jaime about his parentage. Jon and Jaime still have not really had a conversation.

    Did Daenerys and Arya even say hello? You would think the new girlfriend would speak with all the sisters.

    Thank God for Hot Pie. At least we know that he did not forget the gravy.

  448. ShameShameShame:
    Ten Bears,

    “Little old lady got mutilated late last night” – Bernie Taupin wishes he wrote that line

    Naw, he’s too busy gloating over the classic depth and poetry of “Someone saved my life tonight, sugar bear”…… 🙂

  449. Mango,

    You think Gendry kicked his amphetamine habit? He might just need some caffeine – or a bucket full of ale – to drown his sorrows. And you know Hot Pie is never shy about chatting with customers, if newly-minted Lord G needs a shoulder to cry on.

    I’m sure they’d be pleased to see each other again.

  450. Mango,

    “Did Daenerys and Arya even say hello? You would think the new girlfriend would speak with all the sisters.”

    _____
    No, I don’t think they did. And it kinda disappointed me, since I’d been looking forward to it for years, ever since Arya had her chat with Tywin about Visenya Targaryen.

  451. Ten Bears:
    Mango,

    You think Gendry kicked his amphetamine habit? He might just need some caffeine – or a bucket full of ale – to drown his sorrows. And you know Hot Pie is never shy about chatting with customers, if newly-minted Lord G needs a shoulder to cry on.

    I’m sure they’d be pleased to see each other again.

    Gendry is definitely drinking moonshine to handle his heartburn.

    After not supporting Hot Pie on that armor matter, he should not expect a shoulder in his time of need.

    You know, he might think about asking Hot Pie to start up a coffee shop at Storms End. It is south enough and I think there is more people traffic in those parts than in the north.

  452. Ten Bears:
    Mango,

    “Did Daenerys and Arya even say hello? You would think the new girlfriend would speak with all the sisters.”

    _____No, I don’t think they did. And it kinda disappointed me, since I’d been looking forward to it for years, ever since Arya had her chat with Tywin about Visenya Targaryen.

    Oh well.

  453. RG: *clapping* Beat me to it lol
    Now that song is in my head.

    Couldn’t resist jumping in!

    Crazy Little Thing Called Dany
    Radio San San
    I’m in love with my Chicken – the Hounds theme
    Keep Yourself Alive – Arya’s theme
    Pox-ridden Girls – Bronn’s theme
    You’re my Best Friend – Sam’s theme
    Ghost! Ah ah! (Flash)

  454. King in the North East,

    “But if we agree that WW is a bad person and then we compare that to DT, well, I’d say it’s close.”
    ______
    • I get confused and can’t tell if you’re referring to White Walkers, Walter White, Donald Trump, or Daenerys Targaryen.

    • Hey, got any suggestions for the compilation album, NK’s “Love Songs for the Long Night”?

  455. Ten Bears,
    Ditto.
    They showed her so enamored by the dragons yet never had a single direct exchange with Daenerys. Odd

    I’ve enjoyed a lot of what they have shown but man have they left a lot out that could have been very good.

  456. Che,

    Let’s hope Cersei’s check to the Golden Company bounces at the Bank of Bravos. Do my fangirl heart good to see Capt & Senior Accountant Sinclair turn the whole shebang back to Essos for insufficient funds in the Lannister account!

  457. Ned and Jon executed those people because it was the law, not because they wanted to. I thought that was clear.

    So it’s okay that they did it b/c “it was the law”. No mercy for a man that Ned himself said was spouting madness. No mercy for a man begging Jon for his life or a boy whose actions came about b/c of trauma he suffered at the hands of wildlings. Slavery was the law in slaver’s bay. Dany should have let the status quo stand?

    Deserting the Nights Watch or disobeying an order from the LC is punishable by death. They had no choice. It was the law

    .

    They had a choice, just like Dany. Mossador broke the law. By your reasoning she had no choice but to kill him.

    Tyrion used wildfire on an army about to invade his city. I think this files under war casualties.

    The Sons of the Harpy were at war with Dany’s government.

    I never claimed that all of her impulses were bad. Just that her impulses to burn cities are. I don’t get why you keep making it about something else.

    I’m not. You’ve gone out of your way to criticize her intentions and actions on multiple fronts. You keep coming back to her inclination to face Cersei at the Red Keep and I keep telling you that not only has she listened to her advisors, but is now in a weaker position b/c that advice did not pan out.

    That’s ALL I’ve ever said.

    It’s not all you’ve ever said with regard to her character. I feel you don’t give her the benefit of the doubt that you do other characters, and since I really like Dany (and Jon), I’m not going to ignore that.

  458. Clob:
    Ten Bears,
    Ditto.
    They showed her so enamored by the dragons yet never had a single direct exchange with Daenerys.Odd

    I’ve enjoyed a lot of what they have shown but man have they left a lot out that could have been very good.

    I have enjoyed each episode. I must say that the Knighting episode was the King of the season.

    And now that I am thinking about the episodes and what happened in each, I am beginning to see that they should end this series with a long Bollywood style dance number. This would fix everything.

  459. King in the North East,

    Good. It seems that the concept of trying to do the right thing in a horrible system is something that goes beyond your capabilities to understand.

    And now you’re being even more condescending. Yeah I’m going to stop talking about this with you, b/c I think I intensely disagree with regard to your supposition as to what is an acceptable way to overturn an unjust system as well as what is deserving of forgiveness in the context of Planetos

  460. Ten Bears:
    Ten Bears,

    Which reminds me…

    AotD came and went so quickly in one episode this season that we all never got to finish suggestions for the NK compilation album,

    “Love Songs for the Long Night.”

    So I may just continue with that…

    … and, here’s

    “Night in My Veins”

  461. Ten Bears,

    I’m talking about Walter Wight. Or no, sorry, the White Walters.

    And I’ll be more clear I meant DothTFohNtUQotAKotGGSPotRBoCaMoD

    Better?

  462. krupke:
    King in the North East,

    And now you’re being even more condescending. Yeah I’m going to stop talking about this with you, b/c I think I intensely disagree with regard to your supposition as to what is an acceptable way to overturn an unjust system as well as what is deserving of forgiveness in the context of Planetos

    I thought you were done?

    Did you stop being done?

    Are you undone?

    I’m still done.

    You think I’m defending slavery, so let’s call it even. M’kay?

  463. Ten Bears:
    King in the North East,

    • Hey, got any suggestions for the compilation album, NK’s “Love Songs for the Long Night”?

    The Mormonts – The Bear of Castamere

    D&J – You’re my Aunt, You’re my Nephew, You’re my Everything

    B of the BW – Let them pay their Debts

    Braime – The Things We do for Love

    No One and the Hound – Lots and Lots of Cunts

  464. krupke: So it’s okay that they did it b/c “it was the law”. No mercy for a man that Ned himself said was spouting madness. No mercy for a man begging Jon for his life or a boy whose actions came about b/c of trauma he suffered at the hands of wildlings.Slavery was the law in slaver’s bay. Dany should have let the status quo stand?

    .

    They had a choice, just like Dany. Mossador broke the law. By your reasoning she had no choice but to kill him.

    The Sons of the Harpy were at war with Dany’s government.

    I’m not. You’ve gone out of your way to criticize her intentions and actions on multiple fronts.You keep coming back to her inclination to face Cersei at the Red Keep and I keep telling you that not only has she listened to her advisors, but is now in a weaker position b/c that advice did not pan out.

    It’s not all you’ve ever said with regard to her character.I feel you don’t give her the benefit of the doubt that you do other characters, and since I really like Dany (and Jon), I’m not going to ignore that.

    How do you know I give other characters the benefit of the doubt?

    Dany just introduced the law herself and had the choice, she seemed to have no problem breaking her own laws shortly after when it suited her. The men she crucified didn’t die during a conflict. It was revenge, plain and simple.

    Jon and Ned were obligated to obey a law that’s been in place for thousands of years. It’s not them making the law.

    Not remotely similar.

    You keep circling back to the same things. Things I’ve said I’m not arguing for.

    I don’t like going in circles. I prefer triangles.

    I’m done here too.

  465. Direwolf Lvr,

    Oh, thanks for posting that! I have seen it before but it is nice to see it again. It is light and fun! I love how they worked in GOT references.

  466. Ghostgirl,

    “I feel he would be more likely to say let’s disappear,”
    No. You are right, Jon is tired of fighting and he never really advocated a fight, but he also never abandoned a fight. After all: He is Ned Starks son, not by blood, but by upbringing. And there was an interesting scene in the flashbacks, back in season 6, when young Ned leaves Winterfell to be fostered in the Vale. His father Rickard tells him: “Never start a fight, but if you have to, make sure you end it.” As the wisdom about the word “but” and the sentence with the shield Ned tells his younger brother Benjen before in this scene, a lecture Jon passed on to Olly, this is certainly something Ned taught his sons too. Jon is there to end this fight. What happens afterwards is a complete different story…

    “… but I also think he would struggle with a relationship as he’s still processing the ‘aunt’ thing.”
    He certainly is. At least the romantic part. The fact remains, that Daenerys is his family too. Also, that Sansa, the North and Daenerys have a common enemy in Cersei. So, for me the true irony (and also OOC) would be if he would quit the fight.

  467. krupke,

    Maybe come objective then instead of that dany is your favorite cloud your judgment.

    It’s not way to discuss this with you. You ingore every point that made you seem wrong and give a response with no basis. To summarize it a bit what you’re comment say:
    – Ned had every right to behead that man. It was as stated the law that was formed between the realm and the night’s watch to keep the people of westeros safe. If they didn’t do that the people of the night’s watch would desert much much more. It’s a difficult subject. And the night watch has many murderers and rapist. So who knows what he did before.
    – that boy murdered jon. And ignore orders of the commander of the night watch. And what he did was the law of the night watch. The big question is: did Jon like it and felt justified for doing it? No, he hated himself for it and it still burdened him until this moment.
    -dany don’t feel any guilt about was she has done and who she has killed. She doesn’t feel the burden of those action. She could kill somebody and just forget about it. Same with the tarlys I understand that she didn’t feel something with executing randyll, but that you don’t feel a single burden of that action. If Jon did that he would have lie awake for months. (and I can name many more she killed where others feel a burden)
    – and I don’t see dany as good or evil at all. I see her as Grey character. But somethings off that I didn’t saw before but now I see it was there since season 1.

  468. Kevin1989,

    And I have to add somethings with Dany:
    – 1×06: I didn’t have a problem with that she let Drogo Kill Viserys. I think Mother’s instinct was at hand there, protecting your baby. But I’m wondering the way she was intrigued watching her brother being killed. (Later on she named a dragon after him so that means that he had to do something good in the past, so that’s off, so don’t know what to make off that)
    – 1×10: I personally am against what she did to Miri Maaz duhr. I can understand her revenge for her child. We hate Melisandre for what she did with burning people alive but we love Dany for it. But what I don’t understand is the following that Dany fans can’t understand what Miri Maaz Duhr went through, they have no problem understanding what the story told them straight (Dany is hurt) but not what Miri Maaz Duhr went through when her village take over. She had family, she had friends, people who she knew got raped in front of her eyes, killed in front of her eyes. Got made slaves in front of her eyes. And we can assume even children got raped and killed there, Dany is only 13 in the books so yes that did happen there. And Miri Maaz Duhr was evil for taking revenge for all those lives, which are more than 100, and Dany was justified for killing Miri maaz duhr who killed 2 of hers. No if Dany’s action is justified there, so was miri maaz duhr and even more miri maaz duhr. Killing the leader of a murdereous, rapist group is not evil in my eyes.
    – 2×10 I had no problem with killing of Pyat Pree, but I had problem with the way she ended doreahs life. Slow painfull dead. That shows that in her judgement emotion is rooted, which should not. Judgement should be without emotion, she should have ended their lives in an instance, showing mercy. Emotion is not permitted in justice in my eyes.
    – season 3: No problems with anything.
    – Season 4: her crusifying of the masters was filled with emotion, that was not justice that was revenge. Justice is not doing the same thing you try to ebolish, we don’t rape rapist in court, we don’t murder murders in court. If dany killed those masters because that’s her law that slavery is punishable by death that would have been justice, this was not.
    – 5×05: Scaring the leaders of the houses no problem with, they should know they should fear the dragon if they should suport slavery again. What she should not have done is killing an innocent man. if she wanted to show a killing, she should have killed one who was guilty.
    season 6: I don’t see anything wrong there.
    Season 7: Already discussed.

    Dany is a good woman if she doesn’t have power.

  469. All this talk about Daenery’s hair everywhere. Seriously?

    Doesn’t anyone remember that she’s been a Khaleesi since season 1? Braids are a symbol of the Dothraki people’s skill in fights/battles. Lose a fight and the braid gets cut off. The only reason she doesn’t have as many braids as before is because she lost a battle (Raegal and her best friend, and frankly most of her army at Winterfell).

    Now, when the disturbingly large issue about her hair has been swept out of the way, can we talk about more important things than shallow remarks about a woman’s hair and looks?

  470. kevin1989,
    Tiago,
    King in the North East,

    If I may contribute to the debate on Daenerys.

    She grew up a lonely girl with an abusive older brother who kept talking her into believing that they, as the last Targaryen alive, were destined to achieve power and establish control over others.
    Unfortunately, the birth of her dragons etched in her mind that distorted sense of grandiosity and excessive need for admiration since Viserys always treated her with contempt. That was the beginnings of her megalomania.
    Slavery is universally considered as terrible and cruel, so for the audience it’s not hard to say that she did a lot of good in Essos. However, there are signs that Dny does hate to be contradicted and has a tendency on harsh justice (“we’ll destroy those who wronged me, lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground”). She conquered Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen with fire and blood, and implemented law of retaliation. I suppose that rule of an eye for an eye is valid in such a world (the former slaves idolize her), but its consequences were predictable and of course led to a long-running cycle of retaliatory violence.
    Danerys’ rule over the city-states of Slaver’s Bay was therefore a failure.

    About Westeros now. It’s where her journey really starts to go sour. She’s on her promised land now. She’s down to business. She’s the last Targaryen, the mother of dragons and so on. Anything she does is justified since she’s the only one entitled to the IT, it means everything to her.
    Despite the numerical advantage on her side, Dnerys fails to subject Westeros in the same old manner than before and loses her allies, which increases her stress levels. She does pretty dark stuff, burning food when winter’s here, burning prisoners of war alive, has to be talked down from destroying the red keep. But hey, the end justifies the means. She’s the one whose family was wronged.
    She meets Jon who seems to be the perfect consort, but she still needs him to bend and surrender. She’s superior, remember? She’s special. She’s here for the good of the realm, to break the wheel: she has a good heart. Or so she thinks. In the eyes of the people she’s coming to rule, her telling people to kneel or die–and burning those who refuse to kneel–is an incredibly scary thing and a very black and white way of seeing the world, and it won’t help her at all in gaining popularity or being seen as a good ruler. It will only make people fear her. Her advisors try to tell her this but she accuses Tyrion of siding with his family.
    In the end she does come North but it’s because she fell in love with Jon. It’s still “Jon’s war” to her, and the lives of everyone in the world weren’t enough to convince her to go north in the first place.
    She doesn’t receive a warm welcome however, for good reason: she went from being a liberator in Essos to become someone who wants to take away the hard won freedom of the North. She’s here to establish her authority and scares the smallfolk in the process.
    However Jon isn’t a very good boyfriend, doesn’t quite let her in and she ends up alone and insecure in WF. Sansa won the hearts of her people and is somewhat overzealous in her dislike of Dny; her ally Theon publically snubs her in favor of Sansa, which makes Sansa a threat to her authority. Now Jon is a threat to her claim and she suddenly has a rival. It also changes her whole identity: she’s suddenly a little less special. Her paranoia immediately jumps out.
    In 8.03, Jorah dies heroically protecting her. Now she may have realised that she was actually in love with him, and how could she not be resentful of Jon who doesn’t live up to her late suitor. He’s still pulling away from her and doesn’t tell her he loves her back. Now she’s suspicious of everybody and her advisers decide to just stfu and not raise any concerns about anything because she sees mere questioning as a provocation. Rhaegal dies. She’s weakened and isolated and needs Missandei more than ever. And as we know, Cersei has more than one trick up her sleeve …

    TLDR? The world wasn’t kind to Dnerys and she deserves sympathy for all this (although the emotional blackmail of Jon leaves a bad taste in my mouth). Still she’s going mad with her ambition, mad with her feelings of self-importance, mad with anger against those who stand up to her, but she thought she was doing the right thing. She’s a tragic villain with a relatable and plausible motive. This isn’t character assassination, it’s a logical conclusion to her arc: her fully embracing her inner dragon.

    Sorry for the big ass post lol.

  471. Inga,

    “Dany can intimidate, but she has problems with inspiring love”

    I disagree with this statement when recalling the finale of season three, “Myhsa.” Those freed slaves in Yunkai were inspiring and inspired by love. Hopefully “the writers” have not forgotten that scene.

    I hate saying this, but I think some fans are giving Dany’s character Hell simply because she is a powerful woman, but we love her, so I’m rooting for her!

  472. Netheb,

    This is a nice summary, but some points are not what they mean. For example destryoing the food was just bad writing, they showed a lot bad tactical moves, and not really an act of Danny. Another is she went to the north as she has seen the dead presented in KL. She went to rescue Jon and his party before this, yes, maybe because she liked Jon very much. These small differences seems to be not important but they do make also a difference for the character developement. To me, no way she is turning into full mad queen, which to me is destroying KL and killing a lot of people afterwards for minor reasons.

  473. Frank,

    This is what I wish to see, obviously, too obviuosly, the show is presenting Danny to go mad queen. Danny will have another dream/vision with Quaith, telling her again “Remember who you are” – only for show runners I am no longer confident – My quote of the day for them is “You know nothing” as it seems they can’t see the full story line. But hope dies last.

  474. Jack Hamm,

    Yes in Essos she is loved, but is she trying to be queen of Essos or of Westeros? Yes Westeros, so it does not matter how she is perceived in Essos, it matters how the people in Westeros look at her.

    They don’t love her, should they love her? yes and no, love has to be earned. She earned that in Essos but did she earned that in Westeros. Yes and no in my eyes. She should have got recognition for her heroic deeds in the long night, did she got that from the northerners? Partly. Still they choose Jon over her. She felt isolated because of that. Should the people of the south love her? Difficult here, yes for her deeds of the long night, but for them it’s a big question if the long night even happened at all. Maybe it’s all propaganda of the north and Dany. You can’t blame the south for not believing in that. So that means that she has to still earn the love there. That means saving them from Cersei in a non violent way.

    I think that’s a big reason why the long night ended in episode 3, so that it can’t be used by Dany to explain that she just saved the asses of everyone (yes I know, also Jon, arya etc, but Dany contributed a lot, without her army winterfell would be dead man land in 3 minutes).

    For me Dany would be better if she would be a liberator, the head of the army, with Jon as the crown making the rules that she must follow.

    As for her final transformation, which is still a doubt if it happens, still I have a feeling she will do the right thing in episode 5 and go the non-violent route on the citizens of KL. But that Cersei, Varys, Jon are the reason that she will be seen as the violent one.

    But still I have a feeling episode 4 (which is still one of my favorite of the whole series), had too many shifts in Dany’s story in one episode. Her transformation should breath more and have more connection to the past.

  475. Frank,

    I think she will save KL from Cersei in the right no harming the citizens way, but that it was for nothing that the people are still scared of her because of stories Cercei told about Dany, Varys interfering.

    I think that’s what GOT is a story about stories. Remember the whole premise of Robert’s rebellion. It was build on a lie. Same as with Dany, her demise and Jon’s becoming king is build on a lie build by Cersei, Varys and others. Dany will go down in history as the Mad Queen because that’s the story that will be told by the common folk. But the truth is that she has saved the people of Kings Landing.

    And Varys quote will be important what he told Tyrion in episode 2×10: The history books won’t mention you’re heroic deeds, but we will forget (or something like that)

  476. Direwolf Lvr, Ghostgirl, RG,
    Yay making up silly song titles, one of my fave things to do – good work guys! 😀 Just Googled Queen songs and was going to try a few myself, but there are so many that apply to GoT throughout all eight series, it’s like they’ve sound tracked it themselves and I don’t need to change them: Don’t Stop Me Now; Another One Bites The Dust; We Are The Champions; Love Of My Life; Killer Queen; I Want To Break Free; Under Pressure; Who Wants To Live Forever; Keep Yourself Alive; I Want It All; Too Much Love Will Kill You; A Kind Of Magic and Play The Game – spooky!

  477. Netheb,

    You make many solid observations. Dany never showed hesitation/regret or gave indication that she was conflicted about any of the deaths she carried out. This is the difference between Dany and, say, Ned executing a NW deserter or LC Jon Snow punishing insubordination.

    In fact Dany was pretty satisfied with herself, while Ned/Jon were very conflicted, both before and after. Viserys, MMR, Doreah and XXD, the Tarlys etc., whether or not you think they deserved to die, Dany was pleased as punch.

    The only time I saw Dany conflicted about being the cause of someone’s death was when she smothered the Khal.

    I wonder if Ned’s speech in 1×01 will matter. “The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.”

  478. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

    Varys must be the perfumed seneschal. If I remember right this has been in the show where Kraken is Greyjoy, dark flame is not in the show, lion is Lennister/Tyrio maybe, the suns son is the prince of Dorn not in the show and mummers dragon is also not in the show yet, could be part of the GC. Undying are the undying. So here they mixed up the show with story lines in the book that does not have a part in the show. I did not yet find the according scene in the show, should have been in Mereen.

  479. ShameShameShame,

    although she got very mad when they crucified one child per mile and did the same to the same amount of masters.
    Then she was too calm when Rhaegal died or did he?

  480. Netheb: The world wasn’t kind to Dnerys and she deserves sympathy for all this

    I agree. She’s a tragic character and deserves sympathy.

    But that could apply to any human who has ever done wicked things too.

    However, we shouldn’t dismiss those wicked things BECAUSE we show her sympathy.

    I just have a problem with all of the people he who jump to conclusions.

    Dany shouldn’t kill innocents = you hate Dany!
    Decent people having slaves = You support slavery!
    Question a story decision = If you think GoT sucks, go somewhere else!

    There’s been a fair bit of that going on here.

  481. Frank,

    She was fine with killing the masters after they killed the children, and of course she was upset when Rhaegal was killed. Not sure what I said that makes it seem I don’t agree with that.

    I had a large edit of my comment that didn’t go through, that I find Dany to be a sympathetic character. Whether or not any death was “justified”, it’s how the characters react that illustrates differing set of codes.

    It’s a theme throughout the show, not just with Dany’s character.

  482. Jack Hamm: Those freed slaves in Yunkai were inspiring and inspired by love.

    Yeah, I think they were just happy to no longer be slaves.

    How is that love rather than gratitude?