Game of Thrones Season 7 Episode 7 – The Dragon and the Wolf Recap

The Dragon and the Wolf Lyanna Rhaegar Bran

What’s the word for ‘dracarys’ in White Walker? Because I’ve got a feeling we’re gonna be hearing a whole lot more of that round these parts next season…

Spoiler Note: This is our book reader’s recap, intended for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section may contain spoilers from the novels, whether or not that material has appeared on the show yet. Because no, we are not all Unsullied now. If you have not read the books yet, we encourage you to check out our non-book-reader recap, by Oz of Thrones!

A hearty hello again to all of Sue’s weekly readers! Our fearless leader is taking the finale night off. I, however, am here to collect my thoughts and impart them with all of you. Anyway, enough chatter – How did the meeting go between the dragon and the wolf (and the lion)?

This is a unique thing, GOT fans. It has been tradition for the last 7 seasons to bounce around from plot to plot when reviewing the show, as the larger narrative has always been composed of smaller parts. But here, all those smaller parts coalesced into a made-for-TV movie. I mean, HBO does this multiple times throughout the year, so they’re basically pros at this point! With minor exception to the goings on in Winterfell (more on that later), this episode can be largely summarized with a very brief synopsis: ‘A bunch of people get to together to decide the best way to ensure the survival of the human race; disagreement ensues.’ And theme that I found most eminent throughout the riveting finale was the dichotomous loyalties many of our characters confronted, and the paths they ultimately chose.

Daenerys Jon Dragonpit

The prelude to the meeting in the Dragon Pit was just delicious. Tyrion and Bronn finally get the reunion we craved several episodes ago but didn’t receive. Bronn, whose ‘cock jokes’ kicked off the episode in smashing form can’t help but smile when he and Tyrion are back at it. Bronn is a man who’s always followed the gold, but has also forged friendships along the way – Formerly to Tyrion, but more recently to Jaime. Should Jaime and Tyrion ultimately ally to the same side (which from the looks of it appears to be rather likely), Bronn may yet emerge richer than ever and with both of his friends in tow. For now? Seems like he and Pod never returned from the brothel to which I assume they journeyed. I pine for the spinoff of ‘The Sellsword and the Squire.’

707 - King's Landing - Jaime, Bronn 1

Meanwhile, Brienne and The Hound, in a brief but revelatory reunion appear to have a shared fondness for Arya. To see how truly proud the Hound is of the woman Arya has become brings as much a smile to my face as it brings a dry smirk to his. I’m so happy David and Dan found an authentic way to reunite these two characters! Brienne is inspired, having found a young woman in whom she can finally see herself, and Sandor is, well, bemused, to hear that the pseudo-daughter he fostered for a season and a half is coming into her own. Who cares about Cleganebowl hype? I want a Hound/Arya reunion next!

Brienne and the Hound Dragonpit

As the dust balls roll past, and the entire Game of Thrones casts sits and plays 2048 on their phones, Daenerys decides to arrive when she sees fit, giving everyone an entrance as befitting the one true queen. Talk ensues as to the best way forward, and when it appears that the conversation has at last reached an impasse, The Hound gets his backpack from his locker to present his show and tell for the class. His parents didn’t teach him very good manners, as instead of the usual book, or perhaps stuffed animal, he’s brought an undead monster. The slow but deliberate lead up had me on the very edge of my seat, leading me to believe that the wight was either playing dead or that the plan was just not going to work. But then it lunged at Cersei and the tension ratcheted right back up.

Daenerys arrives

After Cersei’s heartbeat settles back down, she is first presented with her question of loyalties – is it to family or to country? She’s nothing if not a Lannister to the end. Siding with the Targaryen/Stark alliance would be to her a betrayal of everything she’s worked towards since ascending to the queendom. Instead of outright deciding, she cedes the microphone to Jon and asks him to recuse himself from allegiance to either queen. Jon, ever the spitting image of loyalty that his father Ned represented, will not make a promise that he knows he cannot keep, and promises that after the ‘Great War’ he will continue to pledge fealty to Daenerys. His loyalty wasn’t too hard to choose.

Cersei Jaime King's Landing Dragonpit Season 7 707

With Cersei ultimately choosing her family over that survival of humanity, Brienne pleads to the only Lannister with whom she has any relationship, and besieges Jaime to “Fuck loyalty. This goes beyond houses and honor and oaths. Talk to the queen.” They each face a crossroad here. Brienne has gotten a gold star for loyalty to the multitudes of people to whom she has pledged allegiance, but she comes to her senses quickly, and knows that loyalty doesn’t matter if there’s no one left to whom she is able to be loyal. Jaime, meanwhile, is unable to remove himself from Cersei’s ‘warm’ embrace…for now.

Brienne and Jaime Dragonpit

Cersei’s stubbornness and unwillingness to align to save humanity prompts Tyrion to risk his life by facing Cersei alone in the first of two Cersei-centric scenes that damn near gave me a heart attack. Note how Cersei now sits in Tywin’s chair…He has been long absent from the show, but his presence hovered all over this episode, as the strained Lannister tensions unravel slowly but surely. As Cersei and Tyrion exchanged grievances and regrets, I got increasingly more nervous – could Cersei actually kill Tyrion? I didn’t think so, but there was a moment there where I really held my breath. So does he, clearly, by the look on his face before he went and chugged himself a cup of wine, thereby signaling further to Cersei that he is not trying to pull a fast one on her by poisoning her or something sneaky. He begs her to rethink her decision, pulling every skeleton out of each of their closets along the way, and recapping half their storylines as they go; I loved every damn minute of it.

Jaime Tyrion

Later, with battle plans for the northern alliance underway, Cersei sticks a knife in Jaime’s heart when he realizes she withheld crucial information from him in favor of another man’s confidence. This was the other pulse-pounding scene to which I was referring. Jaime is completely blindsided by this news, and for the second time this episode, I genuinely feared for the life of a male Lannister. Her ruthlessness is terrifying, and if anything was up in the air for Cersei earlier, her allegiance is made frightfully clear here. Euron’s cowardice earlier was all a ruse, and he’s off wooing the Golden Company with all the wealth of Highgarden. Jaime’s fear at what his sister has become is palpable, and it shows. His journey towards redemption has been an ongoing struggle since season 3, and his commitment to following through with his promise is an attempt to be as noble as Jon was, and Ned before him. I got a chill as Jaime rode north, and from the looks of winter, so did he. I believe this was a subtle nod to Jaime’s final chapter in A Feast for Crows, when Jaime considers Cersei’s plea for help, as a single snowflake falls, before tossing her letter in the fire. In both, winter’s arrival signifies Jaime’s decision about whether to or not to ally. Winter has come at last, and like Jaime, we are here to witness it firsthand.

707 - King's Landing - Jaime, Gregor 1

Meanwhile, in a classic case of torn alliance, and the sequence that sold me on the definite theme of the episode was Theon’s identity crisis experiencing full tilt. Look, Theon has been through more than anyone can comprehend. Simply reaching out for help has got to be one of the hardest things he’s ever done. Just think for a second about how big a step asking your foster brother whose family you attempted to murder for advice would be for you…now imagine how hard it would be for Theon when taking into consideration the rest of the living hell he has endured. Jon convinces Theon that he doesn’t have to choose between Stark and Greyjoy – he is as much one as he is the other. This sends him to confront his remaining Greyjoy armada and assert himself as their true ironborn leader. Not having anything dangling between his legs gives him the surprise upper edge in the fistfight, and he impresses the lads so much they agree to go with him to rescue Yara. Anyone else note the parallels to the season 3 finale when Yara gathered the troops to go rescue Theon from Ramsay? GOT is coming full circle…

Theon Harrag episode 707

Moving north to Winterfell, there was a lot of work to do to make up for whatever nonsense had befallen Arya and Sansa these past several episodes, so color me incredibly surprised and happy that they are no longer needlessly at each others’ throats. Littlefinger deliciously plays into the theme of the episode, in that he’s been straddling the lines of different loyalties for years. In a scene that’s leading us to believe that Arya is being led to trial, Sansa uses the hallmarks of dramatic twist, and turns the smug look on Baelish’s face into a big ‘ol frown. His little showman routine reminds me of my college acting teacher’s routine, where she’d hold a dodgeball in her hand, and we had to beg for the ball, using all sorts of tactics until she decided we had ‘earned’ it. He tries everything, from asking to speak alone with Sansa, to commanding Lord Royce to stand up for him, to falling to the floor and begging for his life through tears. Sansa has learned from the best, and most importantly, outsmarted Littlefinger, using every one of his tricks against him. Her allegiance is to Arya and her family, not to Littlefinger and his machinations. Should this be the last we ever see of him, let’s say a hearty farewell to Aidan Gillen, who has been a main cast member since season 1. And yet – I can’t quite shake the feeling that his face will come highly useful to Arya in season 8…

Littlefingers end

Meanwhile, Bran receives an unlikely visitor in the form of Sam, who pops into Winterfell to see how he can be of assistance. In the moments we’ve all been either waiting for or dreading, it’s officially confirmed: Jon Snow is actually Jon Sand is actually Jon Targaryen is actually Aegon Targaryen. And we have the montage footage to prove it! The lost book plot of Young Griff appears to finally be coming into focus – unless I’m mistaken, they’ve officially transitioned wherever this A Dance with Dragons plot is going into Jon’s narrative for GOT. Personally, I’m very ok with this if it’s the case. Jon’s name being ‘Aegon’ added an extra layer for people (me at least) about which to be surprised during the reveal that we all know was coming. And of course they overlaid it with the montage of Jon and Daenerys finally doin’ it (on a boat!). The thought of them learning of their aunt/nephew relationship kind of reminds me of Harry Potter’s Seamus Finnigan: “Dad’s a muggle; mam’s a witch. Bit of a nasty shock for him when he found out.” But hey – the Targaryens have traditionally kept it within the family for generations, right? Nothing new here. The question is: Where will Dany’s and Jon’s allegiance to each other stand if/when they find out?

Samwell arrives

The season ends with The White Walkers breaching The Wall and setting out to unleash holy hell on Westeros the likes of which we’ve never seen. Tormund and Beric have seen it all – They’ve seen undead zombies, they’ve seen dragons….but they’ve never seen undead zombie dragons. They barely escape with their lives, and will live to fight the in season 8. Who do you think will be the first casualty of the ‘Great War?’ And no, I’m not talking about Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

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Dallying Thoughts:

  • Grey Worm escaped Euron’s siege seemingly unharmed and owned the incredible opening shots of the episode…but then he didn’t do anything else – boooooo! It is my hope that he plays a large part in the Great War next season.

Grey Worm Unsullied Season 7 707

  • Qyburn, the Hand of the Queen, picking up the Hand of the Wight, and looking at it like he’s preparing naughty fun time in his bedchamber was everything.
  • Sorry CleganeBowl shippers, not today. Although we were teased to a vengeful Sandor Clegane confronting his brother for all the misery he’s caused, it appears to be simply fighting words for the moment. The duel will have to wait until sometime in season 8, most likely when they’re surrounded by white walkers and wights on all sides, and the drama can be escalated to 11/10.

The Hound Mountain Dragonpit

  • Can we talk about the music of season 7 for a second? Since the days of LOST, I cannot remember a TV soundtrack this smashingly good. What makes it so incredible is not just all the distinctive tunes (though they are of course hauntingly good), but their evolution over time. The themes and motifs that Ramin Dijawadi created over the years have grown and changed effectively, tailoring themselves to the characters and the emotions of the scene. The best example of this I’ve yet found was the latest rendition of The Rains of Castamere, playing a newly haunting rendition when Tyrion was walking the battlefield in the aftermath of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields Loot Train Battle (episode 5). The song is about the decimation of House Reyne by the Lannisters, and paired so nicely with the image of a Lannister mournfully searching the ruins of the Lannister army for his brother who may be among the dead. While we’ve already heard The Rains of Castamere many times, this one felt different. It’s awesomely poetic and a terrific dramatic twist on the song. There were so many incredible examples of the evolution of the music in this season – What were some of your favorites?
  • All of that effort to bring Gendry back, and he wasn’t even in the finale?
  • Rhaegar really is the spitting image of Viserys, eh?
    Rhaegar and Lyanna wedding
  • Lastly, as much as I understand Tyrion not feeling so great at the thought of Jon and Daenerys being shipped on a ship, I feel like the drama would have been better served if Jorah were instead the one to oversee it. I’m 100% all in for Jorah being Dany’s queen and I don’t have time for Jon to get in their way. Who knows – maybe once it’s revealed that they share relatives, Dany will turn to Ser Jorah Mormont the Andal of Bear Island and ask him to share her throne. A man can dream.
  • I really loved the episode so much. The last two episodes had far too many missteps for my liking, but this one righted so many wrongs that I think I can forgive it. We’ll have to see if next week keeps the forward momentum going. Wait, hang on, a raven just arrived. *Reads raven* What??? What do you mean there’s no episode 8? That’s it??? The longer winter has come??? It might be 2019 before the next season of Game of Thrones???

Notable Quotables:

  • Really, the whole dialogue between Jaime and Bronn, but in particular:
    “Maybe it really is all cocks in the end.” – Jaime
    “Yet your brother has chosen to side with the cockless.” – Bronn
    “Yes. He’s always been a champion of the downtrodden.” – Jaime
    “I think we’re about to be the downtrodden.” – Bronn
  • “If anything goes first, kill the silver-haired bitch first, then our brother, then the bastard who calls himself king. The rest of them you can kill in any order you see fit…Come, Ser Gregor. It’s time for us to meet our guests.” – Cersei
  • “Come on [Pod + Tyrion]. You can suck his magic cock later.” – Bronn
  • “The only one who needs protecting is the one that gets in her [Arya’s] way.” – Brienne
    “It won’t be me.” – The Hound
  • “I left this shit city because I didn’t wanna die in it. Am I gonna die in this shit city?” – The Hound
    “You might.” – Tyrion
    “This is all your idea. Seems every bad idea has some Lannister cunt behind it.” – The Hound
    “And some Clegane cunt to help them see it through.” – Tyrion
  • “I’ve been around the world. I’ve seen everything – things you couldn’t have imagined. And this – this is the only thing I’ve seen that terrifies me.” – Euron
  • “I’m about to step into a room with the most murderous woman in the world who has already tried to kill me twice…that I know of…who’s an idiot?” – Tyrion
  • “That thing you dragged here. I know what it is, I know what it means. And when it came at me, I didn’t think about the world, not at all. As soon as it opened its mouth, the world disappeared for me right down its black throat. All I could think about was keeping those gnashing teeth away from the ones who matter most – away from my family.” – Cersei
  • “We’ll face it together…perhaps you’ll remember I chose to help…with no promises or assurances from any of you. I expect not.” – Cersei
  • “When I try to understand a person’s motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What’s the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say…doing what they do? Then I ask myself, ‘How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?’ So tell me, what’s the worst thing she [Arya] could want?” – Littlefinger
  • “You don’t need to choose. You’re a Greyjoy and you’re a Stark.” – Jon
  • “You stand accused of murder. You stand accused of treason. How do you answer these charges, Lord Baelish?” – Sansa
  • “I’m a slow learner, it’s true…But I learn.” – Sansa
  • “I wasn’t sure if you remembered me.” – Sam
    “I remember everything.” – Bran

    “What happened to you beyond the wall?” – Sam
    “I became the Three-Eyed Raven.” – Bran
    Oh…I don’t know what that means…” – Sam
  • “You did the right thing.” – Arya
  • “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” – Sansa

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Deaths:

  • That wight they brought to King’s Landing. RIP.
  • Lots of people on The Wall.
  • Cersei/Jaime shippers
  • Jorah/Daenerys shippers (including me)
  • Petyr ‘Littlefinger’ Baelish – Pour a glass. Have a pint. Do something to commemorate the Gillen.

What did you guys think of season 7? What will you do during the long winter to bide the time?

Courtesy of HBO (Photo 4)

515 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Jon: Your family hasn’t seen its end. You are still here ( and me also, a secret Targ! )
      Dany: I can’t have children
      Jon: Who told you that?
      Dany: The witch who murdered my husband
      Jon: Has it occurred to you she might not be a reliable source of information?
      Dany: ……….

      Yep, a Targaryen baby is coming.

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    2. Ah, Aidan you were wonderful. ❤

      The camera loves Rory almost as much as I do. The smiles between him and Brienne were quite wonderful. And finally someone spoke of Arya! Yeesh.

      Cersei showing facial expressions aside from a smirk or clenched jaw, yippee!!!! And Jaime walking out like a boss. Fiiiiiiiinnnnaaaallllyyyyyyyyyy!!!! The shot of him looking up at the sky as the snow started falling was a favourite of mine this episode.

      Oh Lord, Gendry is out there somewhere again!!!

      That Wight was awesome.

      Night’s King needs to invest in some mothballs for his dragon closet.

      Still glad Bran didn’t appear standing next to Jon and Dany.

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    3. Long time no post.

      It was freaking amazing. Must admit I wasn’t sold out on the season until the last episode.
      What a pay off. I would sound like a broken record repeating what was written in the recap so I won’t breakdown the things I liked, except the two things that stood out for me : small details but freakishly great:
      Jaime putting the black glove over his golden hand.
      And the mirroring of “I told you not to trust me” scene in season 1.

      As for waiting for season 8 – Hey, I had been waiting for 11 years to see Jon Aegon Targaryen officially. What’s another year or two of waiting?

      Cheers to you all!

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    4. Am I alone when I say this has been the worst season yet? D&D had made some curious plot deviations in seasons 5 and 6, in an effort to streamline. But this season just wasnt Game of Thrones, this season lacked basic plot logic, corny dialogue (or just an over reliance on George’s epic dialogue from earlier seasons). At this stage it’s clear this is just bad fan fiction, with incredible actors, visuals and music. Season 4 was the last great season, ever since, the adaptation and story telling has suffered.

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    5. Jon’s and Dany’s story couldn’t be more obvious at this point. Dany will get pregnant and give birth to an heir. She will get the Throne and Jaime kills Cersei. Somehow, however, Jon becomes the new Night King and Daenerys becomes his queen aka Night Queen. Their child is left to rule. The story ends in a restoration of House Targaryen as no one dares to defy them knowing how the Night Queen Dany punished the slave masters for hurting her children (slaves) when she was alive.

      But the world of ice and fire is in a constant time loop. Winter keeps coming, the Targs keep getting slaughtered just to come back conquering, Brandon Stark’s keep getting born and in fact all the characters have their counterparts in history. And someday, yet again, the Night King and Queen will become myths, the Targs will be killed yet again and the winter arrives yet again. Game of thrones is just depicting one of these loops from the destruction of House Targaryen to its restoration.

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    6. Drew West:
      Am I alone when I say this has been the worst season yet? D&D had made some curious plot deviations in seasons 5 and 6, in an effort to streamline. But this season just wasnt Game of Thrones, this season lacked basic plot logic, corny dialogue (or just an over reliance on George’s epic dialogue from earlier seasons). At this stage it’s clear this is just bad fan fiction, with incredible actors, visuals and music. Season 4 was the last great season, ever since, the adaptation and story telling has suffered.

      Not at all. Nothing seems to make sense anymore and the writing has been extremely plot driven since season 5. Characters do anything and only things that will make the story reach the needed plot points and create “surprising” scenes. The absurd wight hunt is a prime example. The rift between Arya and Sansa is another. It was quite cringey to watch Inside the episode for this one when D&D blatantly said that they wrote the Arya vs Sansa rift only to create the moment where Arya was brought up to Sansa. They wanted viewers to think Sansa would condemn her… This is exactly what is wrong with this show. All the scenes are there to create “moments” which in turn makes it all oh so predictable to many viewers.

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    7. Something’s annoying me. What was the night king’s plan to bypass the wall? Will we ever know? He obviously had something in mind since he was marching an army of the dead towards the wall way before he acquired a convenient dragon.

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    8. Of all the wonderful moments in this episode, I got teary-eyed when snow/winter arrived in KL. Beautiful, with the incredible music (previously used when Arya sailed to Braavos) guiding us into the final chapter of this story. So emotional. The end is nearly here.

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    9. I heard a theory that Tyrion will be raising Cersei’s child and that would be the most powerful ending for his character I could imagine. It’s so perfect, so bittersweet.

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    10. Best moment?

      Sam: You saw this in a vision?
      Bran: (holds out raven-scroll and smiles at him).

      Oh well.. the time for revelations was upon us … cue the die hard R+L=J-naysayers clinging to “oh, but in the *books* he won’t be a Targaryen…”

      Good riddance re LF. Not because of what he has been in the past, but because what the show has turned him into lately. Ever since he gave Sansa to a torturing psychopath without knowing what he was doing, his character has gone downhill. A guy who started out plotting schemes that plunged an entire world into war was reduced to a creepy perv hanging around Winterfell, trying to get two sisters to mistrust each other. Pity about that character, but post-season 4 LF really won’t be missed.

      Although I have to say that I found the sudden twist in LF’s “trial” a bit, well, sudden. Bran’s visions were enough “evidence” to sentence him to die? Meh.. felt kinda rushed and should’ve been constructed/plotted a bit more elaborately. Season 1-4 LF would’ve earned a more epic downfall, caused by a clever scheme.

      I fully expected Cersei’s behavior and don’t quite understand why they did the whole song and dance about her changing her mind multiple times. When in the end, her true intentions were pretty predictable (she will stay the unhinged villain for the rest of her run). Which is doubly regrettable, since this ep seemed to meander much more than the rest of this rushed season … and IMO it meandered needlessly.

      I was kinda surprised to see them confirm R+L=J in this ep. Yes: They already teased the crap out of this one, but I expected having to wait until season 8 for this reveal. Although I don’t expect a “happy” ending where the two of them rule the lands. I fully expect Dany and/or Jon to die before the end – would be about time to lose main characters that actually still have a purpose/mission.

      Overall, I did like this season quite a bit despite its many flaws (supersonic ravens/dragons, silly “let’s catch a wight”-plan, etc). At least the season mostly felt like it was going somewhere – unlike season 5 and its terrible treatment of the Dorne-subplot.

      SG

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    11. I was really upset over last episode and did a bit of complaining..but this..WOW!!
      For me this was the best episode of the season.it was sooo good.
      so many scenes gave me chills, when Sandor smiled about Arya being a badass, when Bran said Jon is the true heir to iron throne. and when Arya was brought to the great hall and Sansa began speaking, I was afraid for a moment I admit it.
      I hope every episode of next season is as great as this.

      The only thing that made me upset was knowing the season is over and I’ll have to wait a really long time for a new episode.

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    12. Oh my gah! What an episode. I loved the slower version of Dany/Drogon’s theme when the episode opened with the Unsullied. It was great! And I agree, as soon as Cersei and Qyburn mentioned the Golden Company a few episodes ago, I felt that some of the fAegon/Young Griff storyline would be adapted into the Dany/Jon plot on the show.

      I also liked how Rhaegar did kind of look like Viserys because in the House of the Undying in the books, even Dany thought Rhaegar was Viserys at first glance until she realised it wasn’t.

      So it looks like Jaime is heading North and I’ll assume he’ll break the news about Cersei’s intentions to Tyrion? Also I assumed Tormund and Beric died at Eastwatch, but are people holding out hope? And there are still technically three heads to the dragon – one is just a wight dragon controlled by the Night King. As Maester Marwyn stated in AFfC: “[. . .] prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams.” 😂

      I think there will definitely be tension between Dany and Jon once he (they?) finds out the truth but I don’t think she’ll kill/betray Jon or anything since he is Dany’s last living relative. I’m already excited for what’s to come next season especially having Dany and her forces in Winterfell. I’m hoping for some Stark Sisters and Dany dialogue and I would even like if Jaime and Dany get to interact next season. That make for an interesting meet-up. But most of all — I’m looking forward to an Arya/Jon reunion!!! And Ghost better be in Season 8!!

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    13. MakeThemBurn: Not at all. Nothing seems to make sense anymore and the writing has been extremely plot driven since season 5. Characters do anything and only things that will make the story reach the needed plot points and create “surprising” scenes. The absurd wight hunt is a prime example. The rift between Arya and Sansa is another. It was quite cringey to watch Inside the episode for this one when D&D blatantly said that they wrote the Arya vs Sansa rift only to create the moment where Arya was brought up to Sansa. They wanted viewers to think Sansa would condemn her… This is exactly what is wrong with this show. All the scenes are there to create “moments” which in turn makes it all oh so predictable to many viewers.

      Did I miss something? What was Sansa going to condemn Arya for? I thought the only ‘evidence’ was Sansa’s letter. The faces? Creepy as they are, they are probably a few nameless Bravossi faces and a few Frey faces – hell Walder’s face should make everyone in that room cheer! How did Littlefinger think Sansa was going to be able to condemn Arya for treason to the North? Seriously asking for clarification, did I miss something?

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    14. Have to say I’m hoping that the reveal about Jon’s name is canon, and book fAegon really has been fake all along.

      I’ve enjoyed this season even with its awkward/WTF moments. Let GRRM take another 10 years, 3500 pages and 500 new characters to reach the same point in his torturous way ( which I’m fine with BTW, can’t wait for the next books ), this is TV and I’m cool with it – even if it’s the least satisfying season of all so far in some ways.

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    15. viki,

      I think he thought he succeeded in making her think that Arya is a threat.

      Especially when Sansa sent Brienne, when it seemed that Sansa was manipultated by him.

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    16. “Tormund and Beric […] barely escape with their lives, and will live to fight the in season 8.”

      I was pretty convinced they had died in the wall’s crumble… Do we clearly see them escape?

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    17. Arya telling Sansa on the battlements that she could not have survived what Sansa had been through was proof that the Stark girls had caught up properly and were playing LF from the beginning.

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    18. So why exactly does emotionless robot Bran give a sh!t about Jon’s parentage and implications over the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

      Bizarre.

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    19. “Lastly, as much as I understand Tyrion not feeling so great at the thought of Jon and Daenerys being shipped on a ship, I feel like the drama would have been better served if Jorah were instead the one to oversee it.”

      At first I thought it was Jorah looking from the far end of the corridor… But now I believe Tyrion being to one to witness the Dany/Jon meeting makes it both a personnal (Tyrion is jealous) and political (so many things are going to be so complicated from now on) moment. Jorah cannot carry the political weight of this moment.

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    20. Drew West,

      Episode 4 was the high point, with 5 and 6 being some of the most problematic of the entire series. Episode 7 was a nice dessert after a bad meal.

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    21. The Het,

      Yeah, I also assumed Beric and Tormund died seeing as how they were still along the staircases on the Wall when it came crashing down. Unless they have Gendry’s running abilities and outran the fall AND its collapsing rubble.

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    22. mau:
      viki,

      I think he thought he succeeded in making her think that Arya is a threat.

      Especially when Sansa sent Brienne, when it seemed that Sansa was manipultated by him.

      I get the threat, but he thought Sansa was going to be able to call Arya out in front of everyone and convince them she committed treason against the North and then sentence her to death… on what evidence? her word alone I guess? He just seemed very confident that Arya was going to be killed/detained, but on what? Since the lords really didn’t play much of a role it is hard to know how they would behave – their loyalty seems fickle most times. Are we to assume that LF thought the lords would just accept Sansa’s word as truth, no need for proof? His plan just seems weak, as the only real proof LF planted was against Sansa… just a bit confused on how LF was so sure he had won…

      I get that Sansa and Arya must have finally talked and consulted with Bran off screen, it is LF actions that seems off to me.

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    23. Of the three main plotlines of this season, war in the south, war in the north and the conspiracy at Winterfell, the third was by far the weakest, primarily because the Sansa-Arya-Littlefinger triangle couldn’t really produce the needed tension an uncertainty. The sibling rivalry was always too tenuous. A far better way to go, would have been to bring Robin Arryn to Winterfell. Throwing his weak and unpredictable personality into the mix, with his liking of both Sansa and Littlefinger, and his ultimate authority over the Knights of the Vale, would have really created the necessary tension and uncertainty up to the final showdown.

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    24. The Het,

      There are three reasons to believe they are alive:

      1. We didn’t see them die.
      2. A character like Tormund shouldn’t be allowed to die off-screen. Beric.. sure.
      3. Jaime swam for 17 minutes underwater in heavy armor with a gold hand, and everyone forgot they saw him fall in the water. Tormund/Beric surviving a million tons of ice falling on their heads while surrounded by an army of the dead is exactly as believable.

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    25. Also, even though Theon helped Sansa in S5, but this episode was the one I truly felt that he’s on the road to redemption, it was so emotional. alongside the scene Jaime left KG.

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    26. Drew West,
      You probably aren’t, but who cares? I thoroughly abhor people who are in the – what, 3rd or 4th year? – of complaining now, and still continue to complain. The show won’t change to fit your tastes now, you know, not in its last episodes.

      Myself, I loved the season, and I’m looking forward to S8! I have this huge, huge list of things I want to see in it:
      – 2-3 battles, including a Siege of Winterfell, some sort of a strike from the South, and The Last One;
      – Jaime/Brienne getting it on, Jaime meeing Bran, Sansa reconnecting with Tyrion, Arya with Gendry;
      – Jaime valonqaring Cersei;
      – Cleganebowl, preferably with the Hound wielding a R’hllorite flaming sword;
      – Varys owning Qyburn;
      – Theon freeing Yara;
      – hopefully, BREAKING THE WHEEL! (whether a parliament, an elective monarchy, or even a republic – some sort of a political breakthrough, in any case) .

      Just give me this all, and I’ll be satisfied with how the story has turned out. Greatly preferably, no blood heirs, though. GRRM has no children, so it would be pretty hypocritical of him to say that Dany and Jon must have one – and I don’t think this is a matter where DnD could decide on their own, independently of the books.

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    27. Best twitter meme, is a picture of Gilly looking slightly annoyed…”When you uncover the biggest secret in GOT but your man takes credit for it…” LOL

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    28. Phario Forel:
      Of the three main plotlines of this season, war in the south, war in the north and the conspiracy at Winterfell, the third was by far the weakest, primarily because the Sansa-Arya-Littlefinger triangle couldn’t really produce the needed tension an uncertainty. The sibling rivalry was always too tenuous. A far better way to go, would have been to bring Robin Arryn to Winterfell. Throwing his weak and unpredictable personality into the mix, with his liking of both Sansa and Littlefinger, and his ultimate authority over the Knights of the Vale, would have really created the necessary tension and uncertainty up to the final showdown.

      Not sure how this would play out, but it does sound interesting – Robyn vs Bran for creepiest expressions and sayings

        Quote  Reply

    29. mau,

      I agree. TWOW is simply too great to be surpassed. That opening scene alone. And then those four show-stealing climactic endings at the end.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Redx:
      viki,

      And all you were complaining that Sam was not paying attention not so long ago….

      No, I never complained about Sam… I rarely even talk about him… he serves his purpose on the show, I don’t really think too much about him, just enjoy the character. Just thought the meme was funny. Never even crossed my mind until I read it, and then – hey he did!

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    31. Grayven Reyne:
      The Het,

      There are three reasons to believe they are alive:

      1. We didn’t see them die.
      2. A character like Tormund shouldn’t be allowed to die off-screen.Beric.. sure.
      3. Jaime swam for 17 minutes underwater in heavy armor with a gold hand, and everyone forgot they saw him fall in the water.Tormund/Beric surviving a million tons of ice falling on their heads while surrounded by an army of the dead is exactly as believable.

      Plus, you see the snow is how they survived.. being covered in all that snow allowed them to stay hidden when the undead army started to cross the wall… once they are all through and on their way to WF, Tormund/Beric finally manages to dig themselves out and run for the nearest ship! There simple.

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    32. Well I ain’t gonna be popular here but I found the episode a little disappointing if I’m honest. The first half just seems to be exactly as described above: a reason to bring characters together for long overdue reunions. And whilst there were some great exchanges that I enjoyed, I do feel this was to the detriment of the overall plot.

      Before I start… I want to stress I love the show and just because I have a valid, objective points, does not make me less of a fan than those who disagree. So no snobbery please. 🙏🏻

      I never really liked the whole wight demo when I first learned of it and it just didn’t make any sense on screen. The exchanges seemed a little clumsy at times- and Dany did not come across as imposing as she could’ve (even riding in on a dragon).

      Then- Cersei refused to help then initially (BTW what did the mountain do to protect her?), after which she was seemingly persuaded by Tyrion (the person she hates most in the world and who I’m amazed she didn’t kill), then, she rocks back up at the Dragonpit and then “agrees” to help. Making herself look weak and malleable; Queen of Westeros- manipulated by her most hated enemy and having to backtrack publically.

      The fact it’s all a ruse is immaterial… and really, why even pretend? Why would Cersei give a fuck if they all left empty handed?

      And empty handed they indeed did leave. So again- what was the point of it all?

      In balance there were some cool moments – as I said I did enjoy those reunions nonetheless, Winterfell storyline semi- redeemed itself and the fall of the Wall was fantastic.

      I LOVED the fact the camera cut to Tyrion outside the room whilst the other two Targs (oh yes I did) were busy inside making a fourth. And whilst Bran was giving us a (completely patronising) account of Jons legitimate claim to the throne. I suspect that was quite intentional.

      I know folks don’t like it. I know they’ll complain, tear their dresses in defiance, deny it. But it’s there, folks. Best get used to it.

      A wise man once said that “not liking something doesn’t mean it’s but going to happen”. That man was me 😂😊

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    33. The Het:
      “Tormund and Beric […] barely escape with their lives, and will live to fight the in season 8.”

      I was pretty convinced they had died in the wall’s crumble… Do we clearly see them escape?

      I agree. How could they possibly escape ?? Tons of ice exploded and collapsed while they were getting down the stairs… Thought they were clearly goners.

      And by the way, where was Gendry : the Wall, on the ships with the whole bunch (though not at the parley to risk being recogised by Cersei), stayed in Dragonstone ?

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    34. The special effects in this show is a gazillion times better than the pirates of the carribbean movies, yet they are the most expensive movies ever made. Truly maginificent art work, But for Fukk’s sake, don’t wait to 2019

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    35. And by the way, where was Gendry : the Wall, on the ships with the whole bunch (though not at the parley to risk being recogised by Cersei), stayed in Dragonstone ?

      Hmm, I don’t know, I’m sure he is fine somewhere off screen – making weapons out of dragon glass? Would have been interesting if he was part of the Dragonpit scene – as he is supposed to resemble Robert, would have given Cersei another little shocker, lol

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    36. The doubt about the succession line has apparently been dispelled by Bran : Dany 1/ and Jon 2/ beause she is the auntie and thus comes first chronologically ; OR Jon 1/ and then Dany 2/ due to his being male ?

      In GoT as in many kingdoms, men are the only true heirs. Queens can only become so by seizing power or being the last offspring around, it seems…

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    37. Apollo,

      My take on it is that it would be harder for Tyrion to believe if Cersei just agreed to it straightaway even with the wight’s little display. By having to be seen to be persuaded/playing hard to get in private it’s a little easier to think she is genuine.

      I reckon GRRM will face much the same issue if this is one of his major beats (I suspect the theme is although not at all the way he will do it), how to make any turnaround from Cersei seem believable.

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    38. Cant help but feel that Tyrion has cut a deal with Cersei.. His character was awfully cagey the whole episode. How did the conversation really end with his sister? and something was odd about him In the corridor, like he was thinking heavily about what he possibly could have just done more so than thinking about what he’d just seen. And the underlying theme of loyalty throughout the episode… hmm

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    39. Loved this episode, got some great conversations between cast 7 years in the making and something I’ve been waiting to see/read about forever. Cersei and Jaime’s reaction to seeing a wight – perfect. Cersei was truly terrified, but of course not even that can convince her fully.

      Which leads me into Tyrion at the end of the episode. Surprised so many people are taking his look at the end her as one of jealousy. I thought of a few things before my thoughts went there:
      – Tyrion knows love never ends well when dealing with Lords and Ladies, thinking that Dany can’t have kids and needs a potential heir also knowing that Jon as King in the North would eventually have to marry to produce his own heir (maybe?)
      – Tyrion finally sides with family. We never see how his talk with Cersei ended, maybe Tyrions guilt over what he did to his family finally hit him. Cersei being pregnant with what could be the last Lannister might be enough for him to turn against Dany? If it was up to her, she would kill both Cersei and Jaime. Tyrion for all his talk, I still don’t think he can kill his siblings (yet). Both Tyrion and Jaime called Cersei’s bluff on this as well.

      Perfect shot of Jaime leaving KL, snow falling. Very AFFC. Loved it.

      I’m guessing Lyanna gave birth after the sack of KL, only way I can think of it to be okay with naming Jon/Aegon when his older brother has the same name.

      Littlefinger! I won’t miss you, and Arya that throat slash was very Grey Worm of you. But he had a double kill.

      Arya and Sansa talking about Ned. That’s just dust in my eye, not tears.

      Jon and Dany. When I saw that article quoting GRRM a few days ago saying his whole plan or whatever the direct quote is, was always about “Jon and Dany” got me a bit hyped for Winds of Winter to see how their journeys get them together.

      But here now in the TV show, I got no problems with it. I don’t think Dany would have a problem with Jon/Aegon either, whether it be the incest (she said herself she would of married Viserys if I recall?) or that his claim is better then hers. If its ever discussed, I can’t see Jon caring too much about his claim. He had a claim to Winterfell, turned Stannis down. Could of stayed Lord Commander, turned that down. Didn’t even really want to become King in the North, but was named.

      Only way I see him taking the Iron Throne is behind Dany or if he’s somehow declared for by others.

      Anyways, great episode. Good season. Next time I’m home sick or hungover I will binge 7 hours of season 7.

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    40. FRAN,
      Well, under feudalism, yeah. Fortunately, the times, they are a-changin’. Do you seriously see Jon telling Dany, ‘hey, you worked for that thing your whole life, but I win on a technicality, sooooo…..’

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    41. FRAN,

      No that’s not how succession works in the real world or Westeros.Jon comes first because he is the child of the first child.The line of succession goes through Rhaegar.Priness Anne can’t be queen before Prince William.Neither can Prince Andrew.It has nothing to do with being a woman in this case.

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    42. Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      Maybe. Not wanting to sound at all like a book purist, but I can’t see GRRM taking the story this particular way, at least not without wiping out half the characters (as the POVs are no longer required).

      I have a feeling Cersei will be gone by he time we get to this stage in the books. Really, she should’ve been the big ticket death this season- the climax to a season of war and the conquest of Westeros, focussing S8 on the Great War to come.

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    43. Yaga,

      I don’t actually mind people having a dislike for the show per se – I don’t agree with them but they are entitled to an opinion. To reiterate something I said on another thread a while ago it’s like when show detractors imply – or say outright – that the sawdust in the heads of show likers doesn’t exactly come from the Tree of Knowledge (not original I wish it was) that I get miffed. I liked some parts of AFFC and ADWD but those books didn’t really push the story forward a whole bunch (I’m not saying they didn’t push it forward at all but not greatly). So I don’t mind the story while it’s heading for the end game being plot driven.

      Apollo, you are living up to your name and being fiery today! “And empty handed they indeed did leave. So again- what was the point of it all?” Setting the stage for season 8 and maybe finally drawing a wedge between Jaime and Cersei. As I stated above everyone is entitled to an opinion though I don’t have to agree with it. And I’m not planning on tearing up any of my frocks (I wear slacks a lot nowadays anyhow).

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    44. Yaga,

      It’s not a technicality.It’s how it works.It’s not sexist either.It’s just primogeniture.And she would be a hypocrite.Look at her speech to him in episode 3.She didn’t use the fact that she was a conqueror and will get the throne by might and because she has worked for it.She said she is the rightful heir,the last of her family,she used her father’s claim etc.

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    45. Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      I doubt in the extreme this is anything from the books. Book!Cersei is a moron who is well on her way to destroying House Lannister, and Book!Tyrion and Dany would have no reason whatsoever to negotiate with her. Cersei isn’t going to end up as a final boss there.

      Of the two main plot threads this season, the southern one was overall much more effective than the northern.

      The stuff at Winterfell had a solid denouement, but it was a denouement for a really stupid story that hinged (seemingly, as there’s minimal explanation) on Sansa catching on at the last minute to a manipulation that should have been transparent from the get-go. This whole storyline was always handicapped by how simplistic the plotting is. And the Stark sisters’ conflict, since it was apparently real, is implausibly papered over, given how much of it had nothing to do with Littlefinger.

      The war in the South, while frustrating in the insistence on keeping Cersei around as a threat well past the point where she should be a footnote or dragonfood, was a lot better. Isolated moments of individual characters talking tend to be where the show is at its strongest, and the early parts of this episode had a lot of those.

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    46. Best finale after s6e10.
      I think Sansa catches LF when he says that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell. That’s not Arya and Sansa knows that.

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    47. What a finale. Am absolutely dreading the wait until next season, but what a note to go out on! Magnificent, though why Jon or Sandor didn’t just point out that wights don’t need to swim if the sea freezes I’ll never know. I guess so Euron had a convenient out?

      But yeah, what a brilliant thing to watch. One of the criticisms of this season has been its unrelenting pace, which has meant fewer nice little moments between different people. Didn’t feel like this episode rushed at all. Bronn-Tyrion, Tyrion-Jon, Theon-Jon, Tyrion-Cersei, Brienne-Jaime, Sandor-Brienne, Cersei-Jaime, Sansa-Arya, Bran-Sam, so many lovely, wonderfully-acted exchanges. I’m still holding out for a Jon-Varys chat in S8!

      Theon and Jon’s heart to heart took the top prize for me. So much shared history and pain and they put what they could to rest to get on with what they needed to. Kit and Alfie were fantastic. Nice setup for Jon’s inevitable identity crisis, talking about not needing to choose between heritage and Ned Stark being a part of him, always. I wonder if Theon will help Jon through it, when he finally learns who he is.

      Speaking of, it would have been nice to have a shot of Rhaegar’s full face, and not just to show it was a different actor than Viserys. We’ve been talking about Rhaegar for seven seasons and we get 10 seconds of partly-obscured side profile? Guess any longer would have disrupted the montage?

      But was that montage was exquisite – the music, the scenes chosen, Bran’s voiceover. Emilia and Kit are just lovely together. Glad they also had that moment in the Dragon Pit, even if was to lay another seed about an heir.

      Still not sure why Tyrion looked so worried on the ship as he realised Dany and Jon were spending the night together – surely they can’t be suggesting envy of Jon? That was part of GRRM’s original outline, I know, but it would fit so poorly here, not with the dynamic they’ve established between the two. Hopefully he’s just worried about keeping them focused – no distractions with the end of the world coming, kiddos!

      I winced through Jon’s Dragon Pit declaration and the unavoidable fallout. Had to chuckle as poor exasperated Tyrion was just like “why can’t you lie for once in your life?!” As it turned out, however, it wasn’t as though Cersei was going to play along, and I have a feeling that Jon’s reputation as the only man whose word is worth anything will pay off in the long run. Lots and lots of emphasis on vows and lies throughout the episode.

      Other highlights –

      The wight reveal – great buildup and reactions from the crowd. It would have been easy to cheapen that scene (a zombie falling out of a box in broad daylight, really), but they conveyed real horror. Jaime’s face as Dany gave the numbers and Cersei throughout. They sold it.

      “I don’t think it’s serious at all, I think it’s another bad joke” Cersei to the bastard standing in front of her calling himself king. Say what you want about her, she can wield some words!

      Sansa spitting Littlefinger’s words right back at him and Arya finishing him with one swift stroke. I never bought the enmity between Sansa and Jon or Arya. Glad they’ve put an end to that, and Baelish.

      Cersei referring to Jon as the “Stark boy”!!!

      “She needs me now”
      “So why’re you still talking to me?”
      🙂

      The music – if he doesn’t get an award for this, Ramin Djawadi deserves a very good bottle of something. He brings it every single time. He combines the Stark and Targaryen themes so, so beautifully.

      Overall, an exhausting emotional joy to watch – thank goodness today’s a bank holiday because think I’ve watched four times? So much to love, and I can’t wait to read the interviews. What an experience. There’s nothing else like it – they’d better rack up those awards.

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    48. Sean C.:

      Isolated moments of individual characters talking tend to be where the show is at its strongest

      This, in bucketloads. It’s almost a shame they have an inevitable zombie apocalypse. I love me some dragons burning up wights, but I’d be fine with a show of hallway chats between various characters. Am so glad this episode featured so many – those are the parts I’ll be rewatching long after the series ends.

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    49. I absolutely loved this final episode. Of course there are a couple of quibbles but nothing that in any way “ruined” my watching experience. I was on the edge of my seat all the way through, even on my second watch! Gods, it was so tense!

      There were so many great, little moments.

      The Unsullied stood absolutely motionless while a Dothraki horde galloped through their ranks. Now, that’s discipline!

      Houndie “babysitting” the wight. Hesitating but then knocking on the crate, cue screeching… Lannister soldier #37 asking what’s in the box (“Fuck off!”) and then when he finally opens the crate in the Dragon Pit and nothing happens, and nothing happens, everybody’s waiting… and he’s like FFS, and kicks the crate over.

      Brienne’s and Houndie’s little talk about Arya. Loved it.

      Qyburn’s reaction to the wight, lol. “Hm, how do I do this…”

      Sam and Bran. Apart from the huge revelations/confirmations, I liked the beginning and end. Sam enters and Bran goes, “Samwell Tarly!” (showing almost more emotion and warmth than when reuniting with his sisters!) and Sam says he wasn’t sure if Bran would remember him, and Bran goes, “I remember everything.” lol. And at the end when Bran says Jon is coming with Daenerys Targaryen, Sam tentatively asks if he saw it in a… vision? and Bran shows him the ravenscroll, lol.

      Jaime’s BLACK horse! This is the first time Jaime rides anything but a white horse. He doesn’t need the “shining armour, white charger” masquerade anymore (also, no plate armour but Podrick-style leathers), now he really is a knight on a quest, working towards the greater good. Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah! (Well, we’ll have to see if that continues in S8. First he needs to stay alive, not become dragonfood for killing Dany’s dad or be assassinated by Arya for what he did to Bran… or be murdered by Cersei for walking away from her.)

      Brienne used a swerry word! “Fuck loyalty!” Jaime is really taken aback. Brienne has come to truly realise oaths and blind loyalty have their problems, sometimes the greater good takes precedence. Oaths and loyalty and their sometimes conflicting and problematic nature are, of course, one of the themes of the whole series, book or TV.

      Speaking of loyalty… Tyrion and Bronn. I loved it when Tyrion at the end of all Bronn’s braggadocio said it was good to see Bronn and Bronn quickly mutters (looking straight ahead) “Yeah, you too.” So the sellsword knight has some feelings, after all, haha! All things being equal – rewards and such – Bronn would choose Tyrion over Jaime every time.

      Did they give Harry Lloyd’s old wig to this Rhaegar actor guy, lol?

      On my first watch, I was so engrossed in the action that I never noticed anything dodgy in the CGI in the final scene, the NK riding I-Viz, but yeah, on my second watch, it looked a bit wonky and dodgy, not on par with other dragon CGI in this season. Speaking of which, I loved how Drogon’s wings flew up dust all over the place when he and Dany arrived at the Dragon Pit, when he left.

      And it was lovely to see a different facial expression from Cersei, not just the cold queenly stare or the smirk, but actual shock and surprise and fear, discomposure when the wight charged at her. She is human despite everything. Lena was so excellent, as was NCW. Peter Dinklage was very good, too. He certainly wasn’t bad, but there’s something in his acting at times, over the seasons, that makes me think “this is Peter Dinklage portraying Tyrion Lannister” whereas Lena and NCW are Cersei and Jaime. Just my opinion.

      Right, I was just going to mention a couple of small things and seem to have written an essay, lol!

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    50. Still early days and digesting but

      People will notice that last season they did a Jon rising as a Northman/Stark which showed Lyanna as his mother via Bran and him being proclaimed King in the North

      This season saw him rise in terms of his Targaryen arc, which showed the marriage and his legitimacy as a Targaryen

      I liked how the Jon/Dany DP scene was done, eg Dany started talking about “we” as in her family but could just as easily be understood as we as in “our” family a nod to their shared Targaryen ancestry and of course there are two mountable Dragons left for the two remaining Targaryens…

      As for Dany, people will notice it comes back to the place where she was born, we get to see the Fire+Blood Dothraki invader style but there is an issue of the MMD thing going full circle, eg that was all wrapped up in the birth of her Dragons and Viserions death may play a role in her being fertile again

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    51. BranTheBlessed:
      So why exactly does emotionless robot Bran give a sh!t about Jon’s parentage and implications over the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

      Bizarre.

      Umm or maybe Bran cares about his “brother” and knows he’s always wanted to know his origins.

      Or maybe because of Bran’s visions he knows this will be an important piece of information. Jon is a protagonist after all, you know.

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    52. BranTheBlessed:
      So why exactly does emotionless robot Bran give a sh!t about Jon’s parentage and implications over the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

      Bizarre.

      Not quite, eg there’s a reason Bloodraven picked out Bran as the next 3-eyed Raven

      There’s a prophecy related reason Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, not just for love but because their child is a magical combination of Ice and Fire, so Kings Blood has power but the blood of the Kings of the North and the Targaryens/Old Valyria may be epic

      Mel seems to perceive this when attempting to seduce him in Season 5, eg his magical blood combining with her shadow-binding abilities may forge one heck of a shadow baby!

      And so Bran obviously perceives Jon as having some kind of important role to play

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    53. viki,

      Yeah, why not after all, everything is now possible in GOT 🙂

      They are probably alive, but last time we saw them I’m pretty sure the Wall was crumbling on their left, and we saw that everything between the breach and the sea went down for good… I am waiting for seeing them crawling from under the ice and snow in the openings of season 8, the flaming sword guiding them!

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    54. The only good scenes were Cersei/Tyrion (nice to see Peter being allowed to act again and Tyrion being allowed to be a main character), Jaime leaving Cersei (finally some development for this poor character), and the Theon/Jon scene (I’m willing to bet D&D will recycle that Greyjoy-Stark line for when Jon’s parentage is revealed).

      Oh and they nailed the Rhaegar casting. I thought that was Harry Lloyd for a second lol.

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    55. viki,

      Hannah Murray is credited in this episode, and yet she only appears silently in the wagon in the courtyard of Winterfell, such a pity… And then as you say Sam takes all the credit, I’m sure he’s going to pay the wildling price for that 🙂

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    56. Isabelle:

      Still not sure why Tyrion looked so worried on the ship as he realised Dany and Jon were spending the night together – surely they can’t be suggesting envy of Jon? That was part of GRRM’s original outline, I know, but it would fit so poorly here, not with the dynamic they’ve established between the two.

      Because Tyrion has seen and also experienced (with Shae) how love can mess up the mind and complicate life. He saw Dany jump on a suicide mission due to affections for Jon and lose one of her dragons in the process, he saw her decline Jorah’s sensible advice and choose once again the more dangerous option of travelling with Jon.

      ‘If you die, we are all lost. Everyone, everything.’

      No surprise then he’s worried after seeing Jon and Dany take their relationship a step further.

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    57. Oops. As to the colour of the horses Jaime rides. He has, indeed, ridden “brown” (chestnut, bay) horses, but that was during his captivity, on the way from Riverrun to KL, via Harrenhall, so he did not choose those horses himself. My point about white/not-white horse chosen by Jaime himself still stands.

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    58. Jon, ever the splitting image of loyalty that Ned represented, will not make a promise he knows he cannot keep, and promises that after the ‘Great War’, he will cintinue to pledge fealty to Daenerys. His loyalty wasn’t too hard to choose

      LOL the same Jon who lied to Ygritte for months on end, by vowing to stay true to her even though in reality his loyalty remained with the Night’s Watch, the same Jon who lied to Mance when he swore that he was one of them, is now suddenly too honorable to lie? He is so ridiculously adamant on telling the truth that, after everything they went through to get this wight to Cersei, he is willing to jeopardize their war efforts for the sake of his honor??

      As for kneeling to Daenerys without telling anyone, the same Jon who first consulted Maester Aemon before he wanted to get the Wildlings from Hardhome, the same Jon who tried to first convince his NW brothers (however unsuccessfully) about his plan for the Wildlings before acting on it, when he was LC, now apparently does whatever he wants with the North without consulting anybody??

      D&D are so interested in limiting Jon to just Ned Stark 2.0 that they are not only failing to see him as his own person, they are even throwing character consistency out of the window. Forget about adhering to book Jon, with whom show Jon has little to no resemblance anymore, they seem to have completely forgotten the work they themselves did on the character in seasons 3 to 5!

      Other than my immense frustration at what the writers have done with Jon’s character, I enjoyed the episode. I loved the scenes between the Lannisters. Jaime finally leaving Cersei was soo good, probably my favorite scene of the episode. Tyrion and Cersei’s conversation was great as well. Also liked the Brienne/Hound talk about Arya and the Jon/ Theon scene. Alfie Allen, you are amazing as always. I loved the Targ reveal scene, the writers ensuring that nobody missed the fact that this was good ol fashioned incest lol.

      On the downside, just like the previous episodes, the Winterfell plotline continued to be underwhelming and meh. Looking back, most of the scenes at Winterfell, other than the reunions, seem to have been just filler.

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    59. BranTheBlessed,

      Plus Tyrion is certainly a bit jealous (which is understandable) and also cares for politics, and a Dany/Jon romance will complicate politics that are already too complex for the good of everyone…

      Basically, throughout the entire season Tyrion has been dealing with mixed feelings regarding his ability to be hand of the queen: due to his experience in KL he was sure to be fitted for the job, but the current task seems to be very hard for him. I would not be surprised he quits the job soon…

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    60. Jon talking to Theon about being both a Stark and a Greyjoy and not having to choose seemed like a prelude to something Jon will have to hear soon. Who will have this talk with Jon about not having to choose who he is? All these years Jon has looked at himself as nothing special he was just placed on this path and he has tried to make the best out of it. He has seen himself as the ultimate example of a bastard and most of his persona has been shaped from this being his label from birth. I totally see a Davos/Jon exchange of wisdom.

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    61. I would give this episode 9/10. The Winds of War episode is still safe at the top of my list with 11/10 -a near-flawless hour of television.

      “g. There were so many incredible examples of the evolution of the music in this season – What were some of your favorites?”

      I really appreciated the way the orchestration of the “See You For What You Are” track with it’s love theme echoed the sound motif for the dragons -that whiny, reptilian sound, because that was what Dany (sorry!) and Jon were initially talking about. But “Truth” was straight-forward classic full-on strings orchestration. Same theme -different soundscape.
      In the digital booklet accompanying the soundtrack Djawadi credits Hans Zimmer. I’d love to know the reason.

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    62. Now, people have slagged off Arya and Sansa all season, but for mine it is great

      One has to understand it is a case of folding season 1 back in on itself,

      As soon as Joffrey turned up and they started heading south there were issues starting with Micah at the Trident but Sansa began adopting Southron fashion (hairstyles) and was reluctant to leave when Ned mentioned it going on about wanting to have children with “yellow hair” etc so the letter dredging all this up into focus makes sense

      Arya’s perfectly at place in bringing this all up as there are/were questions as to where Sansa’s loyalty lies back in season 1 and in E1 we have Sansa saying to Jon about how much she “admires Cersei” and learned from her etc but all the “annoying bickering” related to resolving all this – wow character development

      Of course on top of this we had Littlefinger playing a big role behind the scenes and giving Ned dodgy advice. Think of the “weird scene” of Arya and Sansa discussing faces focused around the Dagger as a twin to Littlefinger brothel scene focused around said dagger involving Varys and Catelyn and Ser Rodrick etc saying it belonged to Tyrion which led to “the Imp” being detained

      Substitute Sansa for Ned S1 in this respect…We even had Bran and the dagger go full circle too, eg LF seems to have given the dagger directly to Bran instead of the Catspaw and we may even be able to substitute Sansa/Brienne for Ned/Ser Barristan with how they were played as well plus the Hound/Mountain confrontation

      There is a S7E1 full arc where Brienne asks why LF is still there, they have found a way to get rid of LF while being able to keep the Knights of the Vale there

      Of course instead of taking place in KL this has taken place in Winterfell. The trial at Winterfell is a combination of both Ned going into the KL Throne Room where Sansa is swapped out for Cersei and Ned is swapped out for Arya as well as Tyrion being dragged into the Vale during S1, namely they resolve the matter of Jon Arryns death in the pilot in front of the Knights of the Vale but also how Ned was betrayed, right up to the point where a reversal of LF with Catspaw dagger at Neds throat turned full circle with Arya slitting his throat

      And through the whole thing we see that Arya/Brienne season has seen the completion of Arya/Syrio but she channels it all to protect her family, plus Sansa has learned from Cersei but moreso from Littlefinger and completed her political training etc cue the closing scene of them both looking out over Winterfell

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    63. like a lot of commenters seem to think, I too think that only S06E10 is a better finale in the series. It was an absolute joy to watch from beginning to end.

      Rhaegar and Lyanna had me really excited. and what a great idea to include a voiceover of Bran. I suspect a lot of casual fans now get the whole Jon-bastard-targaryen drill. I just wish they included a line stating clearly the relationship between Jon and Danaerys.

      The entire army of the dead sequence ws visually stunning!!!! I knew what was coming but I was on the edge of my sit throughout. I thought that Viserion 2.0 is even deadlier and more agile than the conventional dragons. I mean look at the flame he breathes. it looks like a jet of supercharged protons or something. Westeros is really going to be devastated.

      And Ramin, oh Ramin what a genius you are! the Lannister music, the wall crumbling down, the entire dragon-wolf sequence background music is absolutely breathtaking!!

      There’s only one bad thing bout this episode: the fact that it’s the last in 2017 and probably even thru 2018 too.

      #EndTheLongNight

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    64. Luzbeliten:
      Something’s annoying me. What was the night king’s plan to bypass the wall? Will we ever know? He obviously had something in mind since he was marching an army of the dead towards the wall way before he acquired a convenient dragon.

      Yeah that’s a good question.
      What does the Night King want with Westeros any way?
      Turn all into the dead and then what?
      Sauron had the same problem.

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    65. The Het:
      viki,

      Hannah Murray is credited in this episode, and yet she only appears silently in the wagon in the courtyard of Winterfell, such a pity… And then as you say Sam takes all the credit, I’m sure he’s going to pay the wildling price for that 🙂

      That was an even briefer appearance than Art Parkinson!

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    66. So many emotional moments last night. A few that brought a tear to my eyes were the Theon/Jon moment. I’m glad to see Jon pass on a little forgiveness because that was the little boost Theon needed to begin the healing process. Not to mention, I think he needed Jon’s forgiveness so he could start to forgive himself for all the things he did to his second family.

      Sam & Bran. I don’t think I’ve ever been so happy AND sad at the same time to see that revelation. The montage was beautiful and really made me “happy cry”. It’s the thing I didn’t know I needed to see until I saw it. I just don’t understand how Bran didn’t already know that Rhaegar and Lyanna married. Did he not tell Sam that he could see the past and the present? Why did he need that tiny bit of info from Sam to see the wedding? If someone can help me with that, I’d be really thankful.

      Jon & Dany. I’m not sure why people are shocked that Jon and Dany are bumping uglies on the boat. It’s been hinted at for some time. Most people have come to accept Jaime and Cersei openly having a relationship and they’re twins. Why does it bother so many that Jon and Dany are flying their own freak flag?

      Finally, Arya/Sansa talking about Ned on the walls of Winterfell. I have missed Ned Stark since season one. All the callbacks to him this season have really given me the feels. I was really hoping the Stark girls were wise to Creepfinger. I’m happy to see that was the case. It doesn’t matter to me how they achieved it, just that they did.

      All in all, I’m content with this season despite the pacing and the silly wight hunt. It doesn’t matter in the long run. They are racing toward the finish line now come hell or high water and I’m ok with how quickly they’re getting there.

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    67. Boojam: Yeah that’s a good question.
      What does the Night King want with Westeros any way?
      Turn all into the dead and then what?
      Sauron had the same problem.

      This is exactly what I was wondering. What does he hope to achieve? Kill everyone? Then what? What’s his end game plan here?

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    68. Redx,

      I don’t think they were playing him from the beginning, but there was a catching up conversation with her and Bran. I think this was indicated by Arya having the dagger back.

        Quote  Reply

    69. The D and the Wolf,

      You’re not the only one. Tyrion still has feeling for his loving sister Cercei. For some reason. Maybe the fact she doesn’t kill him when she could is enough to sway him. But it showed in that scene of them he has guilt over what has befallen the family.

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    70. Boojam,

      We learned in season 6 thet the Children of the Forest created the Night King to kill all humans (who were destroying the Forest at that time), the aim of the Night King is still the same, there is no reason he changed his mind, he is not a real conscious being in my opinion, so he basically does what he has been programmed to do, nothing more.

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    71. My deep commentary about last night’s episode is that Prince Aegon has the best butt of all Seven Kingdoms and that’s that on that lol.

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    72. The lost book plot of Young Griff appears to finally be coming into focus – unless I’m mistaken, they’ve officially transitioned wherever this A Dance with Dragons plot is going into Jon’s narrative for GOT. Personally, I’m very ok with this if it’s the case. Jon’s name being ‘Aegon’ added an extra layer for people (me at least) about which to be surprised during the reveal that we all know was coming.

      Honestly, I’m pretty sure most of what will be (f)Aegons book material is being given to Cersei and Jon’s true name in the show is both a stupid choice and not at all related to what might happen with Aegon/Griff in the book.

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    73. Flayed Potatoes,

      Jon-Theon interaction is something I have looked forward to since the spoilers first came out here on Wotw, I am glad they got at least one meaningful interaction together.

        Quote  Reply

    74. sooooo Rhaegar had an Aegon with Elia, which was basically confirmed on GOT that they were both killed (by the Mountain).

      Then he had an Aegon with Lyanna…. Jon Snow

      So I guess he felt like every boy needed to be Aegon to hopefully fulfill the prophecy?

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    75. Bunny Without Banners: This is exactly what I was wondering.What does he hope to achieve? Kill everyone? Then what? What’s his end game plan here?

      I can just see the cartoon:
      Shuffling hamburger everywhere!
      One zombie turns to the other and says:
      “You mean this goes on forever?”

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    76. Winterfell: Nice scene between Sansa and Arya on the parapets, I liked that, but the Winterfell story was just ok for me. It was confusing and mildy frustrating up an through the somewhat anti-climatic execution of LF. In the end, I don’t even really know if Sansa secretly wants to be queen or if Arya was ever genuinely angry about that.

      Dragonpit: Some say the Dragonpit accomplished nothing. Well, it did do one thing: Jaime FINALLY left Cersei (!) and who knows, his contribution to the Great War might be crucial.
      I liked how everyone came down on Jon, lol. Although, I think Dany felt bad when he just kinda hung his head after her tirade, “My Dragon died! My dragon died for nothing!”

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    77. Boojam: I can just see the cartoon:
      Shuffling hamburger everywhere!
      One zombie turns to the other and says:
      “You mean this goes on forever?”

      LOL! Right? I don’t understand what his ultimate plan is when he gets passed the Wall.

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    78. Jenny,
      Er, no, it’s not ‘it is how it is’. It’s a rule, a guideline, not an objective law of physics. It can be changed. And the characters are the 1%. They are *who* changes the laws.

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    79. Mawk,

      Most people say that but I think it would be kind of boring for Jon’s character to have been built up over all this time with a “secret identity reveal” towards the end only for him to turn around and say “Aww shucks, who cares, I don’t want the title or any throne.”

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    80. Luzbeliten:
      Something’s annoying me. What was the night king’s plan to bypass the wall? Will we ever know? He obviously had something in mind since he was marching an army of the dead towards the wall way before he acquired a convenient dragon.

      I had exactly the same question! I don’t believe that NK can see the future, as others have suggested, as this would make no sense from a story telling standpoint. But I do believe he can see past and present events as they unfold, just as bran can, and he predicts possible future outcomes, then prepars for them. Perhaps he knew once the dragons came to Westeros that there might be a chance he’d get to take one down.

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    81. Hopefully next season there isn’t any manufactured drama. Cersei was going to react to an alliance like that whether Jon said what he said or not. Tyrion would know that. D&D are great adapters of pre-written material. The writing the last few years has been spotty on multiple occasions with multiple plotlines now.

      Winterfell ended satisfyingly enough, but the journey was overwhelmingly lackluster on the writing end of things. The acting was top-notch, but man was that story cringe-worthy at times.

      BOOK JAIME IN THE SHOW MAKES MY HEART SOAR!

      Overall the show is entertaining, but it’s not scratching the same cerebral itch it used to for me. It’s occupying the same space a movie like “Pacific Rim” occupies. A lot of fun. GoT used to occupy the same space as “The Godfather” because of the richness of the character development and attention to detail with the plot.

      Season 3/4 is still the high watermark for me.

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    82. ygritte:
      festen,

      But LF didn’t say that. Sansa did. He was just asking leading questions.

      I really got the sense that that exact moment is when Sansa knew what he was doing. You could almost tell that she was saying what he wanted to hear, but she didn’t believe any of it.

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    83. Luzbeliten:
      Something’s annoying me. What was the night king’s plan to bypass the wall? Will we ever know? He obviously had something in mind since he was marching an army of the dead towards the wall way before he acquired a convenient dragon.

      He lured the dragon there. That was his plan. NK is a greenseer as well as a Warg.

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    84. ygritte,

      Meh, writers are always averse ( or atleast act like they are ) to possibilities of ‘happy ending’ but then rarely follow through. I can’t think of many stories-especially those with millions of fans-killing off main characters at the end.

      IMO Jon and Dany both live on, scarred emotionally from the War, refuse to take on the role of King/Queen and settle down in the free cities leading a simple life-a house with a big red door perhaps cradling a son in their arms (Dany and Jon’s basic dream).

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    85. I loved “The Dragon and the Wolf” even more after watching it a second time. This one was truly something special.

      We already know that as Game of Thrones fans, we’re blessed with a truly incredible cast, but special acclaim goes out to the actors tonight. Alfie Allen, man. Others have lauded him far more eloquently than I can, but he’s incredible. His performance tonight was something else, especially in his scene opposite Kit Harington, who was also fantastic. Shout out to the Lannister siblings as well. Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau all killed it tonight, especially when they were interacting with one another.

      And since I’m dishing out acclaim … I’ll shower some on David Benioff & D.B. Weiss. I thought their script absolutely crackled with fantastic dialogue, and this 80 minute episode felt perfectly plotted and paced. I love their work. I’ll always be grateful for what they’ve given us.

      Jon and Dany’s love scene was beautifully filmed and achingly romantic. Kit and Emilia were wonderful. The juxtaposition between Rhaegar and Lyanna’s wedding and Jon knocking on Dany’s door, underscored by Bran saying “He loved her. And she loved him” was perfect.

      The Winterfell storyline finished strong. People will debate whether or not the Stark girls were conspiring all along, but to me it doesn’t matter, because the storyline worked for me regardless. Hat tip to Aidan Gillen as well. It was Littlefinger’s time to die, and many were justifiably eager to see him go. But he’s an original cast member – one of only a very small handful who appeared in all seven seasons to date. He deserves all due respect.

      And the Night King riding Viserion the Ice Dragon … terrifying. I was surprised that Tormund and Beric were still on the Wall when it fell, but we did not see them die. They’ll be OK. Run back to Castle Black and link up with Edd. You’ll have some stories to tell … mostly about how everyone in the Seven Kingdoms is royally fucked.

      I’ll be watching this one many, many times as we head into the long, dark offseason. If we’re going to have to 18-24 months for the final season, we hardly could have left off on a better note.

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    86. ygritte,

      Jon will struggle but he is not the kind of man who does not assume his role: he proved he would never refuse any responsibility while he was in the night’s watch, then when he has been claimed king in the north, and when one had to prove the rest of westeros that the dead were coming. So if some people claim he is the true king he will not decline. Although of course he does not want to be king, or the king, and he probably believes more in Dany’s ability to be queen than in his abilities to rule.

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    87. Rrriiiight, the WF storyline.

      I cheered so hard when LF got his comeuppance, at the hands of Sansa, helped by her siblings. You know, the pack. Yay!

      Let’s get the criticism out of the way. The plot/scheme by LF was rather simple by LF-standards. He’s been involved in far more intricate plots and schemes over the years. Maybe this is where lack of GRRM source material shows. For all I know, GRRM only told D&D that Sansa would take down LF with the help of her siblings (which is rather apparent to any book reader anyway because foreshadowing), and, not wanting to invent something elaborate (I’m sure if GRRM ever gets around to publishing the last 2-4 books, it will be hell of a lot more elaborate) D&D went with a fairly straightforward approach. So, LF’s downfall was slightly disappointing because it was over such a simple scheme.

      However, I think this will provide an eternal debating point for years to come. When and how did the Stark sibs begin to collaborate? Was it at the Godswood when Bran handed the dagger to Arya and Sansa warned them about LF’s nature? Or was it as late as after Sansa’s final tete-a-tete with LF?

      What we know is that by the time Sansa stands on the battlements, pensive, and then orders the guards to bring her sister to the Great Hall, in the Great Hall, they’re all three on the same side. Bran is there by Sansa’s side. Sansa would never risk Bran being there, potentially undermining her, if they weren’t singing from the same hymn sheet. Arya is cool as a cucumber. If they weren’t collaborating, she’d be confronting Sansa much more fiercely.

      The moment I knew LF was fucked was when he, the slithering snake that he is, insinuated to Sansa that Arya wants to kill Sansa because she wants to be Lady of Winterfell. Before that moment I wasn’t sure about Sansa, but then her eyes flicker… YASS! Sansa knows her sister far better than LF, annoying and creepy as she might be, but LF totally misjudged this one, Sansa sees his game (which, I think she’s been suspecting and trying to figure out for weeks, if not months.)

      The latest possible date for the Stark sib collaboration is after that Sansa/LF conversation. After that, Sansa knew LF’s game (poor as it was) and went to Bran for some fact checking, and Arya, too. (Arya was serving as Tywin Lannister’s cupbearer when LF was there scheming against the Starks.)

      Some people are saying the Stark sibs collaborated ever since Sansa/Arya/Bran reunion in the Godswood, when Bran gave the dagger (that was used in his assassination attempt and then later held at Ned’s throat) to Arya. I’m not so sure. Sure, they all, especially Sansa and Arya, were suspicious about LF. But the sister resentment/rivalry got the better of them for a while. They have so much old baggage. They both, especially Arya, have to let go of the past.

      I think Arya’s really scary and creepy scene in S7E6, “threatening” to take Sansa’s face, was a warning and a test to Sansa. She passed with flying colours. (witness Arya flicking and giving the Valyrian Steel dagger, hilt first, to Sansa. Sign of truce and perhaps more. Like, “you need to do something, sis”.) I’m not sure Arya properly answered any of Sansa’s legitimate questions, so Arya was being a bit of a hypocrite. But then, she isn’t a proper Faceless Man, she is using their magic for her own personal goals, like vengenace and killing people who cross her. Or was. Maybe she’s also learned a lesson. She was pretty conciliatory to Sansa on the battlements.

      I’ve just realised definite proof of Stark sib collaboration. Remember, Arya gave the dagger to Sansa after their creepy scene. Yet, Arya was wearing it when she was led to the Great Hall, apparently to answer charges… She wasn’t disarmed (she also wore Needle), and she could only have got that dagger back from Sansa. Yay, I’m feeling quite Miss Marple, hahaha.

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    88. The Het:
      Boojam,

      We learned in season 6 thet the Children of the Forest created the Night King to kill all humans (who were destroying the Forest at that time), the aim of the Night King is still the same, there is no reason he changed his mind, he is not a real conscious being in my opinion, so he basically does what he has been programmed to do, nothing more.

      Nothing more

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    89. Jenny: It’s not a technicality.It’s how it works.It’s not sexist either.It’s just primogeniture.And she would be a hypocrite.Look at her speech to him in episode 3.She didn’t use the fact that she was a conqueror and will get the throne by might and because she has worked for it.She said she is the rightful heir,the last of her family,she used her father’s claim etc.

      Actually no.

      She said (paraphrasing) “I have been through a lot of shit, sold & raped, I have birthed dragons, freed slaves, & conquered cities. I am standing here because I believe in myself and that is why I will rule Westeros.”

      Where in there does she mention her fathers’ claim? She believes she has the right to rule beause she’s earned it – not because of who her dad is. Does anyone with her follow her because of who her dad is? HELL no. (OTOH, you could argue some of the Northerners do follow Jon because of who his dad was (supposedly). )

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    90. Jenny,

      Yep. “It was beautiful” 🙂

      And I thought the love scene was done very well but kind of funny at one point as you could tell they were earnestly trying to avoid any frontal nudity lol.

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    91. My prediction for series finale:

      Beric Dondarrion will survive till the end because his purpose is passing the life fire to Dany/Jon- one of whom will fall in the Battle against the Night King. His story has to be of great significance, he’s been brought back six times.

      Dany will have to fight against Viserion and NK. Rhaegal will fall in this battle early. Drogon and Dany will die taking down Viserion, maybe another Ice spear that pierces D&D’s hearts?

      Jon takes a bleeding Dany in his arms and watches her die. Then as he gets up and clutches Longclaw, the blood (Dany’s) from his hands trickles down and the sword catches fire-Lightbringer is formed. Too crackpot?

      An epic showdown follows, Jon slays the NK once and for all. Then as he crawls over to where Dany lies and cries his heart out ( we the viewers along with him ) Beric steps forward and passes his life force to Dany. The last Targaryens live on.

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    92. If there’s one and only thing that I’m not wild about in this absolutely stellar episode, it’s Jon’s true name being Aegon. To be clear, I have no trouble believing that Rhaegar and Lyanna would give a second son of Rhaegar’s that name. It fits with The Prince That Was Promised prophecy as Rhaegar saw it, and in any event, Elia’s son Aegon was dead by the time Jon was born. I just don’t care for it for the petty reason that it’s going to dredge up theories about fAegon and his significance among the book readers. Given that I unequivocally loathe fAegon and his entire storyline, and I do my absolute best to forget that he is a thing that exists in the novels, I don’t appreciate that reminder. I’d have preferred that Jon’s true Targaryen name be Jaehaerys (after the Conciliator and closer to Jon, or Aemon, after the Dragonknight and old Maester Aemon). But that’s a ridiculous minor thing. Ultimately, I’m fine with it.

      The one thing I do appreciate about it is that I think it makes it even more likely that YG is a fake. I already believed that, but the only thing that could make that horribly insipid and contrived character worse is the minute chance that he’s actually legitimate (the likelihood that he’s a Blackfyre puppet is literally the only thing I find even vaguely interesting thing about him, and even that doesn’t go very far). I think that this development underscores the idea that Jon is the only legitimate surviving son of Rhaegar, in both mediums.

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    93. ygritte:
      Jenny,

      “It was beautiful.” And I thought the love scene was done very well but kind of funny at one point as you could tell they were earnestly trying to avoid any frontal nudity 🙂

      I thought Emilia’s comments about that scene were funny.
      (Seems she said after S5 that was that no more nude stuff.)

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    94. festen:
      Best finale after s6e10.
      I think Sansa catches LF when he says that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell. That’s not Arya and Sansa knows that.

      Great point!

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    95. It’s interesting that the spoilers were all correct except for

      Cersei’s miscarraige

      I wonder if they decided to go another direction, or if they will just show that S8E1.

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    96. SG,

      I’m confused. Of course, this was a confusing episode. But I thought it was R+L=J, not R+E=J??? So my belief was that the Starks and Targaryens were thus united. Why would Elia ask Ned to protect her son? His SISTER asking made sense.

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    97. Drew West I am in 100 percent agreement with you on EVERY point. The dialogue and plot lines were so lacking with out GRRM bass line. I felt like I was watching a high production CW Teen Soap Opera show last night- if it weren’t for the good acting.

      Drew West:
      Am I alone when I say this has been the worst season yet? D&D had made some curious plot deviations in seasons 5 and 6, in an effort to streamline. But this season just wasnt Game of Thrones, this season lacked basic plot logic, corny dialogue (or just an over reliance on George’s epic dialogue from earlier seasons). At this stage it’s clear this is just bad fan fiction, with incredible actors, visuals and music. Season 4 was the last great season, ever since, the adaptation and story telling has suffered.

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    98. Jenny,

      I hear your argument. But I think its bullshit if Jon ends up on the throne over her. At the very least they should rule together as King and Queen. But to have Jon become King and her not be Queen feels really cheap.

      A big theme of this whole series has been the horrible sins of a patriarchacal society. To have one of the greatest female characters of all time, who got to where she got through incredible leadership skills and gule be overtaken by a man at the last minute just because he was a man born to a man feels super cheap.

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    99. Random neural firings:

      * The way the Euron thing was handled was really well done. They fooled me with Euron basically like “Screw you guys, I’m going home” and then I started mentally looking forward to a Theon-Euron chase across the seas next season and we had a little time each ep devoted to a blood feud.

      Then, it worked nicely to spur the Jaime-Cersei split. While Book Jaime would still be offended that Cersei slept with Lancel, Show Jaime is a bit more evolved. The idea of her CONSULTING with Euron behind Jaime’s back was too much. Well done.

      And then you add in the Jaime leaving as the snow falls… that’s cool.

      * So yeah, Tyrion got played again. BUT, he was dealt a pretty losing hand by Jon and Cersei is pretty damn good at this too. And he broke Jaime off the alliance, which wounds Cersei personally, even if it is kind of not much tactically.

      * So, what was Tyrion’s grumpy face for. My takes: 1) He was hoping to hit it 2) Tyrion is Team Jorah 3) He just got the raven from Jaime and was all set to come deliver the bad news 4) He doesn’t want to hit it with Dany, but he remembered that he hasn’t had sex since early Season 4 5) He knows or suspects about Jon’s birth himself.

      One of those works

      * I mean, I’m satisfied with how Sansa-Arya ended. “My sister asked you a question” is totally badass, but I feel like they missed a couple of steps. This is one case where even one more episode might have helped.

      My take: Sansa really didn’t put it all together until LF played one card too many and led Sansa to think “Arya wants to be the Lady of Winterfell,” followed by Sansa thinking, “What??? That’s stupid”

      As far as Bran and how much he helped. Even if the Lords don’t buy Bran’s visions, they can see how freaked out LF is, and realize there might be truth in it.

      * Just saying, at some point, you gotta let the Mountain do the Mountain… No, I didn’t want Tyrion or Jaime killed, but… Ser Gregor gotta eat…

      * Lastly, what would the Night King have done without a dragon? I don’t know. Lurking in that is a very good question that wasn’t asked at the Summit:

      Jaime: “Ok, there are 100,000 of these things. Why haven’t they stormed the Wall?”
      Jon: “We believe there are magical spells in the Wall that keeps them out.”
      Qyburn: “Then how did you get this one here?”
      Jon: “We flew him over”
      Cersei: “So… why are we here again? I mean, unless someone were to be so stupid as to hand these guys something that flew and/or breathed magical fire, we should be safe… Hey, wait. Don’t you have three dragons? Where’s the other one?”
      Dany: “Um…
      Cersei: “OK… you, the big black one. Want to switch sides? Dracarys!”

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    100. Well written as always!

      I really wonder what goes through the Mountain’s mind. Does he only respond to Cersei’s immediate danger and requests? He seemed to not even flinch when confronted aggressively by his brother.

      Why was Tyrion standing so creepishly outside of the room while Jon smashed Khaleesi to smithereens? Does he know? Is he in love with her? Shouldn’t he be happy? Isn’t Jon the most suited bachelor for her? Or should she have waited until marriage? LOL

      ugh this episode made me so happy too

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    101. talvikorppi,

      I have a feeling that Sansa would not have sent Brienne away if she seriously felt threatened by Arya; since she did so I feel that it was a convenient way to give Littlefinger a false sense of security and both sisters may have been waiting for LF to flat out reveal his intentions/expectations to Sansa (which he did, finally).

      That said, it does feel as if either a scene or some dialogue was cut for time somewhere, or more likely the writers were just being bit naughty by feeding the viewer’s paranoia with ambiguous dialogue and actions.

      I wonder if everything had been laid out very clearly from earlier as a bait and switch would it have been more satisfying though? Most of us saw it coming because something did feel off and hoped for a hidden ploy. No doubt it could be made to work “better” written out in book form because we would have internal POV monologues to help out but then some of the mystery would be lost…

      Anyway, I hope all the long-running talk of Sansa’s lack of “agency” is put to rest now, and that we get to see a different, more amiable side of Arya in season 8 now a nemesis has been removed from the board.

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    102. GodoftitsandWine:
      Jon talking to Theon about being both a Stark and a Greyjoy and not having to choose seemed like a prelude to something Jon will have to hear soon. Who will have this talk with Jon about not having to choose who he is? All these years Jon has looked at himself as nothing special he was just placed on this path and he has tried to make the best out of it. He has seen himself as the ultimate example of a bastard and most of his persona has been shaped from this being his label from birth. I totally see a Davos/Jon exchange of wisdom.

      Yes I too felt that was something which will be repeated back to Jon at some point, much like the “how many have to die for your/his pride” scenario.

      Davos sprang to mind but also possibly Sam or Bran.

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    103. Luzbeliten,

      His usage of the dragon seems to indicate that the theory of him being a greenseer and seeing into the future is true. He was never gonna cross the Wall on his own. He waited for Dany’s birth and the birth of her dragons. He was waiting for her to reach Essos and come to save Jon at EastWatch. That explains why so many major loop holes were in last episode. He knew what was gonna happen. It also goes in line with last season with the NK being able to interrupt Bran’s visions and communicate to him through them

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    104. Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      The biggest gap in all this is still Arya all like: “They questioned Jon! Behead them!” and Sansa like: “No” and Arya like: “You luuurve power!”

      There really needed to be a scene where someone reminds Arya of the world. Maybe Brienne. Maybe Lyanna Mormont. Maybe even Pod. Just someone to make her see it isn’t all black-and-white.

      As badass as the LF scene was, it really wasn’t totally earned.

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    105. talvikorppi,

      I agree 100% that this will be a topic for many conversations/posts! And I like what you’ve laid out here. My opinion is that Bran, Sansa, and Arya decided they had to do something about LF when they were in the Godswood. This is the first time the three had been together in years and Bran knows about LF’s role in Ned’s death. I cannot imagine him keeping that from this sisters, especially since LF was there in WF and was a danger to them. Whether or not they developed a plan then and there, I don’t know, but they likely agreed to work together to do something. The Godswood would probably be the only place they could talk without fear of LF’s spies or him hiding behind something listening in on what they were sayng.

      One reason I think things started with the first Godswood meeting is in the way Arya and Sansa are when they are together in the crypt and then in that final scene of theirs outside. In both those scenes they are family, they may not love each other but there is respect and acceptance of each other and a dedication to the family. All the other scenes in between have that cat fight element which makes me think those were part of “the show” for LF. And they had that over the top feel to them that we saw in the theatrical group with Lady Crane. So, the “real” relationship between Arya and Sansa is shown in those two scenes.

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    106. Jordan Demagorgen – Spark:
      Well written as always!

      I really wonder what goes through the Mountain’s mind. Does he only respond to Cersei’s immediate danger and requests? He seemed to not even flinch when confronted aggressively by his brother.

      Why was Tyrion standing so creepishly outside of the room while Jon smashed Khaleesi to smithereens? Does he know? Is he in love with her? Shouldn’t he be happy? Isn’t Jon the most suited bachelor for her? Or should she have waited until marriage? LOL

      ugh this episode made me so happy too

      I’m just gonna keep the phrase “Smashed Khaleesi to smithereens” in my back pocket for when I need it most.

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    107. onefromaway,

      That doesn’t fit what we see, though. Arya apologizes in the final scene for stuff she said to Sansa in the previous episode. If that was all an act, it wouldn’t be necessary.

      You’d also get into the issue of why they bothered with any of this if they knew everything since 704. The intervening span gained them nothing.

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    108. Bunny Without Banners,

      The NK is programmed by the Children of the Forest to kill man. That’s it. He’s the doomsday weapon created by the CoF to win the war against the First Men. The NK is like the doomsday weapon in Star Trek that continues on long after the original creators have died.

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    109. Sean C.,

      Agree. i don’t think they worked together but i think Sansa was tipped off it was Littlefinger at some point either when she wondered who could have unearthed that letter, when she got he knife or in their last scene together.

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    110. Sean C.,

      I’m of the opinion that they’ve been playing Littlefinger the whole time. And it’s not just about knowing what he’d done. They couldn’t just kill him off, they had to convince all the other Lords of his treason first. They needed to ensure the Lords of the Vale especially remained loyal to Sansa and not to their Lord Protector.

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    111. B:
      Drew West I am in 100 percent agreement with you on EVERY point. The dialogue and plot lines were so lacking with out GRRM bass line. I felt like I was watching a high production CW Teen Soap Opera show last night- if it weren’t for the good acting.

      I don’t know what this means. People are really overreaching on the “plot/writing has gone downhill without GRRM” narrative.

      First of all, GRRM hasn’t written an episode since Season 4 (and only 4 in total), and D&D have written about 60% of all episodes since Ep 1.

      Second, the “writing” has always been an adaptation of the book. Very rarely, if ever, does dialogue come directly from the book, and the plot has only really been a direct adaptation in Season 1. So basically since that, it’s been D&D’s vision of the books. So any issues with ‘dialogue’ have been the same as they’ve always been – not by some correlation of GRRM’s involvement.

      I think people are just having a problem with how quickly the story is moving. Admittedly there are some inconsistencies with timing, etc, but D&D have undertaken an impossible task of putting 7000+ pages of writing with thousands of characters onto the small screen. The GOT universe was expanding for the first 4.5 season – now it’s in contraction mode and it appears the walls are closing in. People seem to be equating the lack of ‘exposition’ to poor writing. It’s just the fact that everything is in motion and action now.

      Also – we have no idea what ACTUALLY happens in the books at this point – perhaps the wight hunt actually happens in WOW as it did on GOT? Perhaps Sansa/Arya do play LF to his death as they did this season? Would people still consider this a bad idea or bad writing?

      D&D are doing in about 18 months what GRRM couldn’t do in 7 years which is put a bow on the conclusion. Odds are that GRRM still doesn’t know how he wants everything to wrap up and he has about 3% of the responsibility that D&D do in terms of the magnitude of putting the show together vs. just writing the book.

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    112. I’m sorry to say that I was extremely disappointed with that finale. And with this season overall.

      I think the quality was summed up by the moment where the Ironborn captain repeatedly kneed Theon in his groin, supposedly to no effect. It was an absolutely risible and insulting moment, more suited to a Farrelly Brothers film or some other farce.

      And I don’t know how many times the word “cock” was used in this episode, but somebody needs to tell the writers that it really doesn’t make for good dialogue.

      I’m just so disappointed, to be honest.

      The closest this episode came to being a proper Game of Thrones finale, a proper Game of Thrones episode even, was when Cersei appeared to have ordered The Mountain to kill Jaime.

      And then they don’t even have the guts to follow through with it.

      Just the predictable Littlefinger death and the excruciating Lyanna/Rhaegar discussion while Jon and Dany doink, for no apparent reason other than to fulfil this awkward incest storyline and, based on the dialogue over the last couple of episodes, produce a magic Targaryen incest baby.

      The episode was just devoid of any genuine twists or intrigue. And even what should have been the epic spectacle of The Wall being brought down was underwhelming, in my opinion, especially considering Tormund and Beric both conveniently escaped alive.

      I’m sorry if this opinion puts any noses out of joint, but I really can’t deny my disappointment. It’s just the way I feel. The show has been so good for so long, and the Season 6 finale was one of the best hours of television I’ve ever seen.

      But this season has felt so rushed and ham-fisted that I fear that after years of investment in the show and characters, the conclusion looks like it could be a big disappointment.

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    113. Bunny Without Banners,

      I believe the NK has the end game of just turning all into the dead and they just live forever, I know it just doesn’t make sense but there are some people out there (yes in real life) that just want to see the world burn/in ruin. they don’t think long term, it’s almost like a computer program that has a set of commands and once the sequence is over it simply stops or stay idle. I kind of have an understanding of it, but logically speaking it makes no sense, but take in consideration of short term basic functions/goals it makes sense.

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    114. Arya Snark:
      Sean C.,

      I’m of the opinion that they’ve been playing Littlefinger the whole time. And it’s not just about knowing what he’d done. They couldn’t just kill him off, they had to convince all the other Lords of his treason first. They needed to ensure the Lords of the Vale especially remained loyal to Sansa and not to their Lord Protector.

      And we we’re just fooled as a viewer? There are 2 scenes that Sansa and Arya are just alone talking = Arya revealing the scroll and Sansa finding out faces.. if you think they are playing LF the whole time and we we’re just fooled blatantly as a viewer. It’s probably the last scene when LF push to Sansa that Arya wants to be the Lady of Winterfell. That’s when Sansa doubted him totally.

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    115. There is a neat theory out there that the NK (also a greenseer) set up the whole attack in ep6. He knew they’d be coming and that the Dragons would rescue them. So they were biding their time at that same island that Bran saw them at a few eps before. It’d explain a lot, such as the conveniently placed chains (which were actually taken from the barge on the lake).

      ginny: I had exactly the same question! I don’t believe that NK can see the future, as others have suggested, as this would make no sense from a story telling standpoint. But I do believe he can see past and present events as they unfold, just as bran can, and he predicts possible future outcomes, then prepars for them. Perhaps he knew once the dragons came to Westeros that there might be a chance he’d get to take one down.

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    116. Arya Snark,

      But how did they convince the Vale lords of his treason? Bran said he did it, nothing more. That could have been done at any time. They have no other evidence, nor did running such an elaborate deception gain them any.

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    117. QueenofThrones,

      She literally tells him your ancestor swore a vow to mine in perpetuity.The targs were the best things to happen to Westeros,I am the last Targ,don’t break faith etc.He also tells her at the end that her claim rests upon her father’s name.
      House Monty,

      That’s the thing though.It’s not because he is a man born to a man.He is the child of the first child.He would have a better claim then her even if he was a girl.And it’s not gonna end that way but if it did Jon wouldn’t be king just because he is a guy.That’s absurd.

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    118. Jenny,

      Yes, you’re right. Forgot the obvious.

      However, When Joffrey died, the question of Myrcella becoming queen never came to anyone’s mind, and she was older than Tommen. Or am I recaling things wrong ? I suppose if she had been next in line, she would not have been sent to Dorne ?

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    119. talvikorppi: I think Arya’s really scary and creepy scene in S7E6, “threatening” to take Sansa’s face, was a warning and a test to Sansa. She passed with flying colours. (witness Arya flicking and giving the Valyrian Steel dagger, hilt first, to Sansa. Sign of truce and perhaps more. Like, “you need to do something, sis”.) I’m not sure Arya properly answered any of Sansa’s legitimate questions, so Arya was being a bit of a hypocrite. But then, she isn’t a proper Faceless Man, she is using their magic for her own personal goals, like vengenace and killing people who cross her. Or was. …

      I’ve just realised definite proof of Stark sib collaboration. Remember, Arya gave the dagger to Sansa after their creepy scene. Yet, Arya was wearing it when she was led to the Great Hall, apparently to answer charges… She wasn’t disarmed (she also wore Needle), and she could only have got that dagger back from Sansa. Yay, I’m feeling quite Miss Marple, hahaha.

      Remember that the dagger scene (Arya to Sansa) happened in Arya’s chamber, after Sansa found the faces, and then Arya left Sansa alone in the room. I think that indeed Arya was ‘testing’ Sansa, and the giving of the dagger indicated that she was on Sansa’s side, which Sansa implicitly accepted (while being also quite frightened of though also intrigued by what Arya had become). Sansa would only need to replace the dagger from where Arya had picked it up, to indicate back to Arya their agreement.

      So I think I agree that was where their ‘partnership’ to take down LF implicitly took effect.

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    120. FRAN,

      Inheritance outside of Dorne is male-preference primogeniture, meaning all sons before all daughters. If Dany was Jon’s older sister her gender would matter, but as the younger sister of Jon’s father she would be behind Jon whatever his gender.

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    121. FRAN: I agree. How could they possibly escape ?? Tons of ice exploded and collapsed while they were getting down the stairs… Thought they were clearly goners.

      Watch it again. They weren’t on the stairs; they ran west along the top of the Wall. The last shot we see of them is when they look back with the blue light on their left, clearly on top of the Wall still as it collapses in front of them. This is before the last collapse, so they still could have been in the avalanche, but they could also be stranded on top of the Wall, with the choice to either try to climb down after the dead pass, or walk along the top of the Wall to Castle Black or another abandoned castle that still has access.

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    122. Sean C.: But how did they convince the Vale lords of his treason? Bran said he did it, nothing more. That could have been done at any time.

      Convincing people that something they would like to be true is true is very easy. Many of the Vale Lords never liked Littlefinger, and Littlefinger did effectively frame Lord Royce about Sansa’s “abduction.” So, when given the chance to believe the worst about Littlefinger, they did.

      The irony of it is that Littlefinger himself set it up. His little game, “Imagine the worst,” is one that people always play. What he left out is that people weight the plausibility of the worst based on how much they like/dislike someone. Of course, Sansa doesn’t really like Arya – Arya is, after all, strange and annoying – but even Sansa realizes when she gets to the end that, no, Arya does not want to be Lady of Winterfell. (Ninja Queen of Bravos, sure: but not Lady of Winterfell.) And, of course, now Sansa is going to play the little game of “Imagine the worst…” for Littlefinger. She can back that up with people who have been imagining the worst for some time.

      So, this all followed from how the basic development and evolution of the characters quite nicely.

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    123. spaewife,

      Yes, that’s what I thought. YET she remained second in line, wherever she was… If she was sent for alliance / as a ward / whatever, it is because she was not the next planned ruler.

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    124. Wimsey,

      You miss the point entirely, which is that if you begin from the premise that the Stark kids knew all this in episode 4, then there was no point to anything that happened afterward as they could have executed Littlefinger immediately.

      Hence, why the Stark kids did not have this all worked out in episode 4.

      Though even there you have the issue that Sansa could apparently have gotten rid of him by accusing him of Lysa’s murder at any point. Apparently she was deathly afraid of the Northern lords learning that she wrote a letter under coercion while a hostage, but not that she willingly lied to the Vale lords to cover up Lysa’s death when much older and not under any influence to do so.

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    125. FRAN,

      Line of succession would be rhaegar as heir apparent, whos children would be next in line with males coming first (1st aegon, Jon, and the girl), then the other children of the mad kings (viserys, dany).

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    126. FRAN,

      The Seven Kingdoms practiced male-preference primogeniture, Dorne straightforward primogeniture. Therefore she was the second heir to Joffrey, Tommen being first, according to (most of) the Seven Kingdoms. She was sent to make a political marriage, to the (in show) heir to Doran. There’s a lot more in the books.

      Had Joffrey had children (legitimate through a recognised marriage), both his younger siblings would have been displaced in the succession.

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    127. Hello to everyone, first time posting here.

      Just watched finale 2 times in a row and enjoyed it immensely. Overall I think series has become more Hollywood-style as it has progressed with increasing suspension of belief but I still enjoy it very much and it still has its own special feeling. Besides, it’s still fantasy show so I’m really not so concerned about improbabilities and teleportation and all that stuff. I’ve just accepted it and for most part succeeded in imagining maybe a bit slower passage of time for events than in which they’re portrayed. Good job from everyone involved in this great show.

      There are many questions that might or might not get answered in final season, but one that stood out for me after second viewing was this:

      How did Sansa and northeners react Jon submitting to Daenerys? I don’t know if I missed something but I didn’t catch any mention of this. Was it all happy faces and thumbs up or will there be backlash (some hint I might have missed) from this decision? What do you think?

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    128. House Monty:
      Jenny,

      I hear your argument. But I think its bullshit if Jon ends up on the throne over her. At the very least they should rule together as King and Queen. But to have Jon become King and her not be Queen feels really cheap.

      A big theme of this whole series has been the horrible sins of a patriarchacal society. To have one of the greatest female characters of all time, who got to where she got through incredible leadership skills and gule be overtaken by a man at the last minute just because he was a man born to a man feels super cheap.

      Succession works on primogeniture. Jon would have a better claim even if Dany herself was a man. As the first born son’s first born, he has a better claim than the first born son’s sibling, irrespective of gender.

      But I wouldn’t worry if I were you. I feel pretty sure D&D feel the same way. If Dany remains alive at the end of the show, they will probably just have Jon give up his claim in her favor or something like that (if he doesn’t die, that is) .

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    129. The song/theme of the White Walkers, from the opening scene of the show (waymar royce), doesn’t get used as much anymore. I like that eerie version and wish it was used more.

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    130. Some One,

      1) I believe there was, is and always will be tension between Sansa and Arya. They have different world views and different ways of running things. Arya will always have her antennae up for Sansa getting a little too bossy. Sansa will always wonder if Arya has finally snapped.

      So, the scene where Arya and Sansa have the “who suffered more” and “who misses Father more” bit was more realistic in hindsight.

      2) The dagger scene is a problem. Part of it is that Maisie Williams does a bad Hannibal Lecter impersonation. Part of it is that the scene is just weird.

      3) This isn’t a U.S. court. They don’t have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that LF killed Lysa, and convinced her to poison Jon Arryn. All they had to do was throw it out there, use Bran to quote some of LF’s lines back to him and count on him looking so guilty the Vale lords were like: “Well, we always suspected” (which they did)

      I’m relatively OK with how it turned out. If you understand that Sansa and Arya are always going to be fighting over things, it works better.

      What’s going to be interesting is what Jon’s parentage means. Yes, he is Heir to the Iron Throne, but I seriously doubt he claims it. (Or Dany lets him)

      BUT, as the son of Ned’s younger sister, he actually falls further behind the title for Lord/Lady of Winterfell. Does this make Sansa the true Lady of Winterfell?

      And will she marry? Who are the options? Theon can’t produce an heir. Pod is too low-born. Gendry is a bastard and anyway, he’s Arya’s. Not touching Robyn of the Vale.

      How about… behind Door #2 — Jaime Fooking Lannister!

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    131. Sean C.: Apparently she was deathly afraid of the Northern lords learning that she wrote a letter under coercion while a hostage, but not that she willingly lied to the Vale lords to cover up Lysa’s death when much older and not under any influence to do so.

      Such a good point.

      The writing is all over the place. It’s such a shame.

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    132. Sean C.:
      onefromaway,

      That doesn’t fit what we see, though.Arya apologizes in the final scene for stuff she said to Sansa in the previous episode.If that was all an act, it wouldn’t be necessary.

      You’d also get into the issue of why they bothered with any of this if they knew everything since 704.The intervening span gained them nothing.

      I can see that it was an apology for her statement, you may be right. But I can also see it as ” I went too far with my play acting” apology. It’s close, I can see it both ways.

      I’m glad you brought up the second point, why bother with all of this if they knew about LF’s role in Ned’s death. Why not just arrest or kill him over that? I wondered about that too. My guess is that they could not just kill him, what would the Lords (the very people they need loyalty from) think of that? I think they needed more to prove to the others that LF was a murderous manipulator. How much stock would the Lords of North and the Vale put in Bran’s vision of LF and Ned? Or Sansa going back on her story about how Lysa died. They needed something current. The scene between Sansa and LF in the finale provided the final pieces for Sansa to move forward with a current charge. During the “trial” all the other offenses came out too, but those were not the current charge. Is this a case of entrapment? It might be, but it sure felt justified.

      GOT gave us bits and pieces and they can be put together is multiple ways. It is something to keep us busy during the long break!

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    133. Luzbeliten,

      Have we been watching the same show? The Night King knew he would be getting a dragon. He knew that Jon and his companions were coming and he knew Dany would fly in on a dragon to save them. This was the Night Kings plan the entire time.

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    134. Gods, its so tiresome dealing with people who apply modern day morality to GoT’s setting. Like how did you even come to like this story? Why do you watch it still?

      Monarchy, War and bloodshed, brothels, beheading and all the other gruesome punishments-So many things that go against present day morals but oh, its sex between two people-who come from families both of which have incestuous marriages-that is disgusting and impossible to accept.

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    135. The D and the Wolf,

      You are not alone. Tho I don’t think of it that way. I think it was meaningful, the scene where he observed and lingered outside Danys cabin. I don’t know the theories well, but could he be set up to betray Dany for love? He had such a disappointing run this season. Few jokes, lots of missteps being outsmarted at every turn by the sister whom he classified as not as clever as she thinks he is. I want a POV chapter to know what is going on in Tyrion head. I was more worried he would be exposed for owning that he was protecting his family than for Cersei offing him.

      Another thing that I feel the recaps I’ve read have misinterpreted is that I don’t think Sansa was playing LF this whole time. I think she decided to go to Bran and about Arya and LF and that’s how she got to the endpoint. Also, I loved LF as a horrible character all these years and was a bit disappointed by the way he handled the end. But it was still good. I just thought he was a bit… unbelievable in owning in front of Vale soldiers that he killed his wife Lysa and his tears and whinging seemed ingenuine. Until he was really tearing up over his own end.

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    136. Prior to Episode 6, this had gone down as the best season yet in terms of storytelling, pacing, etc. Then Clichéville took it down several notches. This episode brought it back up to one of the best episodes of the year.

      First of all: any of you out there who suggested as far back as the late 1990’s that Renley trying to get Robert to annul his marriage to Cersei was a setup for Rhaegar & Lyanna, 5000 Internet points. (At this point, the originally bet cookies are pretty stale.)

      Second: the show managed to fool me well. I was about to write off the episode when Cersei returned with her “We’ll all fight together” bit. Then it turns out that she’s doing what I thought Cersei should do: planning to stab them all in the back. Extra bonus points for managing to present the wight in such a way that even Cersei could not deny what it was (as I expected her to do). I think I was envisioning the wight just being in a cage, and Jon & Co. not destroying it in order to show just how difficult it as to destroy. And a couple of more bonus points for Qyburn’s reaction of pure fascination! I did also like that the episode really followed through on Cersei’s and Jaime’s divergent trajectories and opposing reactions.

      I am sure that some people are going to dismiss the revelations about Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon’s true name as “fan-servicing.” However (and to repeat something Sue tweeted a couple of weeks ago): the fact that so many fans saw this coming long ago does not make it fan-servicing; instead, it means that M,B&W properly put guns on the wall and subsequently fired them. Good on them for giving us the proper setup.

      I wrote about Winterfell above. I, for one, do not think that Sansa & Arya were plotting this all the while. Instead, I think that Littlefinger basically coached Sansa into: 1) realizing that whatever Arya wanted, it was not to be Lady of Winterfell; and, 2) imagining the worst about him. LF really was in a precarious position: the Vale Lords didn’t particularly like him, and Sansa had a definite love-hate relationship with him. Hopefully (but doubtfully), this will lay to rest all of the “Littlefinger was everywhere and behind everything!” ideas. However, LF’s influence should continue: I don’t think Sansa is going to be thrilled at her new possible sister-in-law, wait, er, cousin-in-law, no, um, aunt-in-law, no, that’s not right either, um…. Queen-in-Law or … sheesh, I quit.

      And, of course, a big chunk of the Wall came down. I’m sure that others have mentioned it, but the way that it subtly evoked scenes of the WTC towers coming down (well, at least as subtly as could be done given the nature of the scene) was very effective. I’m sure Donald Trump saw Muslims celebrating the event, too. (Those lumbering thugs were Muslims, right? Or Mexicans: it’s so hard to tell sometimes…)

      As for Jon & Daenerys, well, again: people have been calling that since Bill Clinton was president. This was an unusual TV romance in that it fits neither common model. Most RomComs drag it out for as many seasons as possible: and, of course, promptly see the show lose all steam once it happens. Others make it !BANG! in one or two episodes. This took a rarely seen middle ground where it took most of a season. And, OK, maybe that is a little “icky”: but, then, if you were 20-something and had a 20-something aunt or 20-something nephew that looked like that, well, you wouldn’t have to be from West Virginia *nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more say no more…..*

      Overall, the season did a really good job of telling a story about choosing battles. The final episode really put the foam, cinnamon and chocolate flakes on the cappuccino. If (IFFFF!!! only the 6th episode had not tried to cram every visual and cinematic trope possible into 65 minutes! But, ball dropped: ball picked up.

      Now, let’s count down until Season 8 is Spoiled Spectacularly! (We can take bets on whether the Leaks are published before Winds of Winter….. 😉 )

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    137. ghost of winterfell,
      Actually… I wonder. Rhaegar was never King; he died before Aerys. Shouldn’t the surviving child of Aerys precede his grandchild (assuming no patriarchy bullshit)?

      As usual, my preference is with doing away with the throne altogether, and moving forward to some sort of elective method of choosing leaders.

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    138. Wow, that was one bad episode. Was the writing clumsy or what? I’m not even angry though, the writing was so bad that I’m just shocked. This is not how you’d write a soap opera, let alone one of the greatest TV series ever existed. Seriously. What did I just witness?

      Show, don’t tell, people, writing 101! Who thought revealing Jon’s identity (one the most interesting TV mysteries of all time) through a fireside chat between two people who barely know each other was a good idea? Also, I’m so disappointed that D&D chose to use the reveal only as a way to make an incest storyline more shocking. I’m disappointed that they’re going with the incest at all. Jon’s identity could have been revealed at a much more significant moment than him shagging his aunt, like, I don’t know, when he achieves something that no one else is capable of? And I thought Jon’s resurrection was handled poorly!

      Poor Jonerys shippers, it must suck to have one’s ship only used as a plot device to create more drama. Jon and Dany are going to crash and burn, exactly like some of us thought they would. Oh, well. Poor Tyrion. Go Stark girls, nobody plays the Starks against one another!

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    139. Demon Monkey: I don’t know the theories well, but could he be set up to betray Dany for love?

      I think it more probable that Tyrion is concerned with the potential complications involved. However, he tells Daenerys (and us) that he’s noticed both the way that Jon looked at her and she looked at him. Tyrion knew that there was an attraction.

      Still, one couldn’t be entirely surprised if Tyrion was starting to fall a little in love with Daenerys. As Jaime notes, Tyrion was always a champion for the downtrodden, and seeing that trait in a gorgeous young woman would be appealing.

      However, I do not think that Tyrion is going to betray Daenerys. To the south, Tyrion hates Cersei too much; to the north, the Night King doesn’t make allies. Moreover, Jaime is coming north, and that will further alter dynamics: it’s going to make Tyrion hate Cersei all the more.

      So, a tad bit envious perhaps, but Tyrion can be envious without being treasonous.

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    140. Ryan: I don’t know what this means. People are really overreaching on the “plot/writing has gone downhill without GRRM” narrative.

      First of all, GRRM hasn’t written an episode since Season 4 (and only 4 in total), and D&D have written about 60% of all episodes since Ep 1.

      Second, the “writing” has always been an adaptation of the book.Very rarely, if ever, does dialogue come directly from the book, and the plot has only really been a direct adaptation in Season 1.So basically since that, it’s been D&D’s vision of the books.So any issues with ‘dialogue’ have been the same as they’ve always been – not by some correlation of GRRM’s involvement.

      I think people are just having a problem with how quickly the story is moving.Admittedly there are some inconsistencies with timing, etc, but D&D have undertaken an impossible task of putting 7000+ pages of writing with thousands of characters onto the small screen.The GOT universe was expanding for the first 4.5 season – now it’s in contraction mode and it appears the walls are closing in. People seem to be equating the lack of ‘exposition’ to poor writing.It’s just the fact that everything is in motion and action now.

      Also – we have no idea what ACTUALLY happens in the books at this point – perhaps the wight hunt actually happens in WOW as it did on GOT? Perhaps Sansa/Arya do play LF to his death as they did this season?Would people still consider this a bad idea or bad writing?

      D&D are doing in about 18 months what GRRM couldn’t do in 7 years which is put a bow on the conclusion.Odds are that GRRM still doesn’t know how he wants everything to wrap up and he has about 3% of the responsibility that D&D do in terms of the magnitude of putting the show together vs. just writing the book.

      Hey !

      I wholeheartedly agree with all of this.
      Im both book reader and show lover, and sometimes when i m a bit frustrated i just remember the itws of Martin i was reading back in 2011, when he says things like “i was aiming to write a book that’s unadaptable for screen ” ( feel free to find actual quote) until he met with D&D.
      I remember that, and try to make peace with all the little somethings i wish to see but cant possibly fit into a tv episode. Now S7 is frustrating due to the 7 episode limit, i think it highlights the weak links we didn’t necessarily see in other seasons, but again sometimes they had these fuller episodes that were a bit meh.
      I just wish for an 8th ep in S7, i think it woulda just been perfect.

      Also im a bit tired of hearing ppl talk as if they had any idea whatsoever abt balancing a HBO sized series budget, timing, cast, plots, book adaptation ect… most of these people couldnt even manage a short film of 12 min with 2 characters and make it compelling. Im a bit bitter when i read stuff like that ” the writing is so bad/the plot is so weak” im an aspiring film writer myself and the amount of time and work needed… not a lot of people can take it.
      ( and trust me, i find D&D too cocky sometimes but the amount of criticism they get is a bit off the charts)
      Anyway, end of my unedited rambling, im going back enjoying this incredible story, rewatching everything from S1 + waiting for WoW.

      Cheers!

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    141. Evi:
      Wow, that was one bad episode. Was the writing clumsy or what? I’m not even angry though, the writing was so bad that I’m just shocked. This is not how you’d write a soap opera, let alone one of the greatest TV series ever existed. Seriously. What did I just witness?

      Show, don’t tell, people, writing 101! Who thought revealing Jon’s identity (one the most interesting TV mysteries of all time) through a fireside chat between two people who barely know each other was a good idea? Also, I’m so disappointed that D&D chose to use the reveal only as a way to make an incest storyline more shocking. I’m disappointed that they’re going with the incest at all. Jon’s identity could have been revealed at a much more significant moment than him shagging his aunt, like, I don’t know, when he achieves something that no one else is capable of? And I thought Jon’s resurrection was handled poorly!

      Poor Jonerys shippers, it must suck to have one’s ship only used as a plot device to create more drama. Jon and Dany are going to crash and burn, exactly like some of us thought they would. Oh, well. Poor Tyrion. Go Stark girls, nobody plays the Starks against one another!

      WF plotline was written the worst. Nobody knows if they were playing LF the entire time

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    142. Jack Bauer 24,

      Just because he doesn’t talk to you doesn’t mean he doesn’t talk. I find him charming. He roots for the Cubs. He has good taste in wine. Knows a lot of Christmas songs. I’m sorry he doesn’t like you enough to chat.

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    143. Yaga: Actually… I wonder. Rhaegar was never King; he died before Aerys. Shouldn’t the surviving child of Aerys precede his grandchild (assuming no patriarchy bullshit)?

      Under primogeniture, the heir of the heir inherits. Many kings under this system inherited thrones from their grandfather rather than their father: for example, King George III inherited the throne from his grandfather. Victoria had at least one uncle who was a younger son of George III, but because her father came before that uncle, she came before the uncle.

      Exceptions sometimes are made for political purposes (i.e., the heir is a woman or the heir is of the wrong religion or the heir is a total idiot), but those usually involved civil wars, too.

      The big issue here is: how many people will accept the truth of this? They have only Bran’s word that Jon is Rhaegar’s son. Some might question the legitimacy of a secret annulment. Did Jon unknowingly abdicate when he bent the knee? Basically, if there are people who do not want Jon to be King, then they will find a way to believe that he’s not really the legitimate child of Rhaegar.

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    144. BranTheBlessed: Because Tyrion has seen and also experienced (with Shae) how love can mess up the mind and complicate life. He saw Dany jump on a suicide mission due to affections for Jon and lose one of her dragons in the process, he saw her decline Jorah’s sensible advice and choose once again the more dangerous option of travelling with Jon.

      ‘If you die, we are all lost. Everyone, everything.’

      No surprise then he’s worried after seeing Jon and Dany take their relationship a step further.

      I agree with the first part of this. My initial reaction to Tyrion’s expression in the boat was puzzlement being that he was the one who mentioned that Jon Snow loves Daenerys, and she needs to think about succession. Then I thought he might be jealous because he’s also in love with Dany. But you are probably right that he’s worried about what Jon/Dany being in love couild cause them to do that could jeopardize her life.

      I disagree that Jorah idea was sensible. He said that someone might want to be a “hero” by shooting an arrow at the Mad King’s daughter, but that could happen to her on dragon back too, as Tyrion has pointed out previously. I can’t see how arriving on dragon back like her ancestor Aegon the Conqueror would give the Northmen a feeling that she’s come to help them, rather than threaten them. She’s trying to prove that she’s allied with King Jon by arriving together as a show of unity. Jorah wants to separate Dany from Jon.

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    145. Jack Bauer 24,

      I don’t really have to know. I don’t need everything spelled out for me.

      Wimsey,

      At some point, we have to let go of the “fan servicing” accusation. Speaking as a fan, I want to be serviced.

      Also, the very existence of sites like these mean that just about direction the show goes from here on is going to have been guessed at. Just about any theory will have been already proposed on some message board somewhere.

      There will be 6 eps to go. Maybe 450 minutes (75 minutes each)

      You’re gonna have to fill in a gap or two yourself. Or just not get bothered by it.

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    146. Sean C.: I doubt in the extreme this is anything from the books

      I agree but broadly we can see some ideas that have come into play from the sample chapters for TWoW.

      E.G. Why does GRRM write of Arya joining an actor’s troupe and going on stage? Presumably because she will need to use acting skills at some future stage.

      Of course GRRM will take his story in his own way and they won’t be like for like with the show but thematically the show gives some possible hints (as well some that are much too far “out there”).

      I’ve always felt that having three armies meet in some decisive battle near/at KL is just a bit too obvious for GRRMs style, and so my guess is that there will be some sort of attempt at conciliation (which may be a waste of everyone’s time, who knows?)

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    147. Yaga:
      ghost of winterfell,
      Actually… I wonder. Rhaegar was never King; he died before Aerys. Shouldn’t the surviving child of Aerys precede his grandchild (assuming no patriarchy bullshit)?

      As usual, my preference is with doing away with the throne altogether, and moving forward to some sort of elective method of choosing leaders.

      No that’s not how it works, even in the real world. For example, Prince Charles is the next in line to the British throne and has yet to become king. But if he were to pass away before becoming one, his son William would be the next in line, not his sister Anne. The same would apply here, Jon’s claim comes before Dany’s, irrespective of gender.

      I think some sort of a constitutional change in Westeros is inevitable, given Tyrion’s conversation with Dany in the last episode. The question is how far will the changes go. I have seen a lot of comments suggesting that elective monarchy would be the solution. It would be more realistic than a direct transition to democracy.

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    148. BranTheBlessed: Gods, its so tiresome dealing with people who apply modern day morality to GoT’s setting.

      I concur entirely. M,B&W did a very good job of showing us the morals of this world. 1. The only thing that entitles you to anything is that your father (or grandfather) had it before you;
      2. It is dishonorable to not do everything in your power to make sure that your great-grandchildren and beyond inherit your titles and reputation;
      3. Women are walking uteruses that talk without anything worthwhile to say (for nearly all men and most women, anyway);
      4. Career opportunities for women are: wife, whore and nun;
      5. If the gods had meant for peasants to have any say in their lives, then they would not have created lords.

      Etc., etc.

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    149. WorfWWorfington: At some point, we have to let go of the “fan servicing” accusation. Speaking as a fan, I want to be serviced.

      There is a huge difference between fan wishes and fan inferences. Giving (some) fans what they want (e.g., the several pointless conversations among the characters while wight-hunting) really was just fan-servicing. For the most part, the show has been good about avoiding that. Fans being right about who Jon’s parents were or where the parallel evolutions of Jon’s and Daenerys’ characters were heading or any number of other things of this nature is just the show telling a story properly.

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    150. Wimsey,
      Yeah, I’m fully aware of the bigger question. But I was actually interested in (and thank you for clarifying!) the ‘official’ ‘rules’.

      My actual take on the actual situation on the show, to spell it out in detail once and forever, I hope, is as follows: I tend to think in term of narrative arcs. Jon‘s arc was always about the White Walkers, the Night King, being the ‘shield that protects the realms of men’. It was Dany‘s arc that was about political change, ‘breaking the wheel’ and so on. To make Jon the heir right now would be to take Dany’s arc away from her, at basically the last possible moment. Absolutely unfair, and completely unfulfilling. She has to be the one to make her choices to resolve it. It would be as if Dany was the one to kill the Night King instead of Jon (or took out that piece of obsidian, or became the new Night Queen, or however that storyline is intended to be resolved…).

      Hence, Jon’s heritage will be probably used to prove that he’s the saviour engineered by Rhaegar to fulfil the prophecy. This will keep the information pertinent to his own story arc. The repercussions on the political arena will probably be hidden, to protect Dany’s claim and her storyline.

      Just my predictions, taking into account the narrative arcs so far.

      e: Wimsey,
      Uh, no. Those were the values at the beginning of the series. This has been changing. Our protagonists have started to break the feudal confines caging them.

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    151. Wimsey:
      First of all: any of you out there who suggested as far back as the late 1990’s that Renley trying to get Robert to annul his marriage to Cersei was a setup for Rhaegar & Lyanna, 5000 Internet points.(At this point, the originally bet cookies are pretty stale.)

      This is definitely not from the books. GRRM has been explicit that you can’t annul a consummated marriage. In the books, Rhaegar presumably took Lyanna as a second wife.

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    152. Ser Not Appearing in this Series: Of course GRRM will take his story in his own way and they won’t be like for like with the show but thematically the show gives some possible hints (as well some that are much too far “out there”).

      The stories and basic plot outlines almost certainly will be the same. Details will differ, if only because details that work on page do not work on screen and vice-versa. At any rate, I will be really surprised if Winter is not a story about political self-compromise or if Spring is not a story about choosing one’s battles. In a lot of ways, it’s tough to see where else GRRM could go from Dragons but to these stories.

      Ser Not Appearing in this Series: I’ve always felt that having three armies meet in some decisive battle near/at KL is just a bit too obvious for GRRMs style, and so my guess is that there will be some sort of attempt at conciliation (which may be a waste of everyone’s time, who knows?)

      I agree. Indeed, I think that we’ll see a bit more effort necessary in the books to convince people that there really are White Walkers and an army of the Dead: in the books, it is even more the case that this is all considered to be some sort of bad joke or crass ploy to get more provisions & men at the Wall.

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    153. BranTheBlessed: Because Tyrion has seen and also experienced (with Shae) how love can mess up the mind and complicate life. He saw Dany jump on a suicide mission due to affections for Jon and lose one of her dragons in the process, he saw her decline Jorah’s sensible advice and choose once again the more dangerous option of travelling with Jon.

      ‘If you die, we are all lost. Everyone, everything.’

      No surprise then he’s worried after seeing Jon and Dany take their relationship a step further.

      Yes! You described Tyrions reaction perfectly.

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    154. Evi,

      I would have taken your apparent disgust with incest more seriously if you hadn’t made a fuss about Jon’s big reveal in the same comment. If you despised incest, you have to despise the Targaryens and if you despise Targaryans you have to hate the fact that Jon is being revealed as one.

      Instead what do we get? People celebrating Jon’s true parentage, yearning for him to proudly accept his Targaryan blood and ride a dragon, want to see him sit the Iron throne because he’s the rightful Targaryan heir BUT expect him to show his disgust in incest which is the Targaryen way of mating.

      I’m sorry but the hypocrisy is hilarious.

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    155. Ryan,

      Aegon-Jon was born in the Tower of Joy after both his older half-brother and his father were already dead. It was Lyanna alone who named him. Was she following something that Rahegar had told her or had some other reason for the name we don’t know, but it poses no real problem…

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    156. Sean C.: This is definitely not from the books.GRRM has been explicit that you can’t annul a consummated marriage.In the books, Rhaegar presumably took Lyanna as a second wife.

      Yeah, they shouldn’t have used the word “annulment”. Yet Renly does propose that Robert should “set aside” his wife to marry Margaery, which would presumably not disinherit Cersei’s children. It’s more like a really sexist divorce.

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    157. Morrigen,

      No, in the show they were never married because Tyrion never consummated it.

      Boojam,

      Her appearance in 510 was similarly brief.

      rfresa,

      It seems like there may be some idea of divorce in Westeros (though there’s never been any detailed outline), but both mentions (in AGOT and “The Rogue Prince”) indicate that the king needs to sign off on it. There’s no way Aerys agreed to Rhaegar divorcing Elia and nobody knew about it. Not to mention, Rhaegar wasn’t around KL until well after he ran off with Lyanna.

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    158. Jack Bauer 24,

      Gendry was with me too. Don’t tell Arya.

      Seriously, you don’t think it might have been a bad idea to take one of Robert’s bastards, who supposedly is the spitting image of Robert when he was younger, to a meeting with Cersei? Did that even cross your mind?

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    159. Phario Forel,

      I had to listen three times to realize she was saying “Aegon”

      For some reason, I kept hearing “Argon” and it was only reading recaps that I gathered the name.

      I get Rhaegar being prophecy obsessed, and men are going to get control of namesake rights in this world. Still, I’d like to have seen her have some input.

      “Eddardgon”
      “Bengon”
      “Rickgon”
      “Rickonagon”

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    160. For me it’s been pretty clear that both girls were playing LF and laying a trap for his downfall, although not necessarily together- until late on (with some intel from Bran).

      Sansa knew from the point LF suggests using Brienne. So she sends Brienne away to lure him out, give him the illusion he’s safe to plot and scheme (as Brienne was likely at his tail constantly). That’s when he’s more likely to make mistakes- and he did.

      She was likely unaware of Aryas intentions, likewise for Arya- hence the game of faces. After that, she knew where Sansas allegiance lay. Arya similarly was letting LF know she was following him (I mean come on, her eavesdropping was laughably obvious).

      As for the timing… well, they needed to give LF time to slip up and for Sansa to realise what his game was. And that came when he mentions Arya’s desire to be Lady of WF. Dude, do your research.

      The Lords of the Vale (i.e. Yohn Royce) detested LF and YR had wanted him dead since S4- most definitely since S6 where he almost had YR killed. So it wouldn’t take much to get them around, but would take time. It was great to see YR complicit in LFs downfall.

      Also- this was their arc this season so they had to stretch it out to the finale. Sure, it could’ve been handled better and wasn’t entirely clear- hence why we’re all here debating it.

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    161. WorfWWorfington:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Gendry was with me too. Don’t tell Arya.

      Seriously, you don’t think it might have been a bad idea to take one of Robert’s bastards, who supposedly is the spitting image of Robert when he was younger, to a meeting with Cersei? Did that even cross your mind?

      He wasn’t at Eastwatch either.

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    162. talvikorppi:
      Rrriiiight, the WF storyline.

      I cheered so hard when LF got his comeuppance, at the hands of Sansa, helped by her siblings. You know, the pack. Yay!

      Let’s get the criticism out of the way. The plot/scheme by LF was rather simple by LF-standards. He’s been involved in far more intricate plots and schemes over the years. Maybe this is where lack of GRRM source material shows. For all I know, GRRM only told D&D that Sansa would take down LF with the help of her siblings (which is rather apparent to any book reader anyway because foreshadowing), and, not wanting to invent something elaborate (I’m sure if GRRM ever gets around to publishing the last 2-4 books, it will be hell of a lot more elaborate) D&D went with a fairly straightforward approach. So, LF’s downfall was slightly disappointing because it was over such a simple scheme.

      However, I think this will provide an eternal debating point for years to come. When and how did the Stark sibs begin to collaborate? Was it at the Godswood when Bran handed the dagger to Arya and Sansa warned them about LF’s nature? Or was it as late as after Sansa’s final tete-a-tete with LF?

      What we know is that by the time Sansa stands on the battlements, pensive, and then orders the guards to bring her sister to the Great Hall, in the Great Hall, they’re all three on the same side. Bran is there by Sansa’s side. Sansa would never risk Bran being there, potentially undermining her, if they weren’t singing from the same hymn sheet. Arya is cool as a cucumber. If they weren’t collaborating, she’d be confronting Sansa much more fiercely.

      The moment I knew LF was fucked was when he, the slithering snake that he is, insinuated to Sansa that Arya wants to kill Sansa because she wants to be Lady of Winterfell. Before that moment I wasn’t sure about Sansa, but then her eyes flicker… YASS! Sansa knows her sister far better than LF, annoying and creepy as she might be, but LF totally misjudged this one, Sansa sees his game (which, I think she’s been suspecting and trying to figure out for weeks, if not months.)

      The latest possible date for the Stark sib collaboration is after that Sansa/LF conversation. After that, Sansa knew LF’s game (poor as it was) and went to Bran for some fact checking, and Arya, too. (Arya was serving as Tywin Lannister’s cupbearer when LF was there scheming against the Starks.)

      Some people are saying the Stark sibs collaborated ever since Sansa/Arya/Bran reunion in the Godswood, when Bran gave the dagger (that was used in his assassination attempt and then later held at Ned’s throat) to Arya. I’m not so sure. Sure, they all, especially Sansa and Arya, were suspicious about LF. But the sister resentment/rivalry got the better of them for a while. They have so much old baggage. They both, especially Arya, have to let go of the past.

      I think Arya’s really scary and creepy scene in S7E6, “threatening” to take Sansa’s face, was a warning and a test to Sansa. She passed with flying colours. (witness Arya flicking and giving the Valyrian Steel dagger, hilt first, to Sansa. Sign of truce and perhaps more. Like, “you need to do something, sis”.)I’m not sure Arya properly answered any of Sansa’s legitimate questions, so Arya was being a bit of a hypocrite. But then, she isn’t a proper Faceless Man, she is using their magic for her own personal goals, like vengenace and killing people who cross her. Or was. Maybe she’s also learned a lesson. She was pretty conciliatory to Sansa on the battlements.

      I’ve just realised definite proof of Stark sib collaboration. Remember, Arya gave the dagger to Sansa after their creepy scene. Yet, Arya was wearing it when she was led to the Great Hall, apparently to answer charges… She wasn’t disarmed (she also wore Needle), and she could only have got that dagger back from Sansa. Yay, I’m feeling quite Miss Marple, hahaha.

      Re When did they begin conspiring.

      Sam leaves The Citadel (via buggy) in ep 5 (Eastwatch). Arya finds the planted letter in ep 5 (Eastwatch). Let’s say Sam left around/> the same time Arya found the letter.

      Petyr’s trial occurs in ep 7. Sam arrives at Winterfell in ep 7 (buggy). I don’t have a good feel for how much time passed between Petyr’s trial and Sam’s arrival. My guess would be weeks®

      Still, I think there’s a significant gap between when Arya finds the letter and Petyr’s trial (based on Sam’s travel time). I think Sam used roads because his horse buggy at The Citadel looks like the same one he pulled into Winterfell on.

      This gap, in my opinion, is large enough that the answer to this question is another question (based soley on audience interpretation of a character). How long would Sansa (and Arya and Bran by proxy) toy with LF knowing full well they could sentence him?

      I prefer the plan to be hatched in the weirwood scene between the three Starks. So imo, they have been toying with him for some time. I think Sam’s travel (minus the gap from Petyr’s trial and Sam’s arrival) was at least 2-4 months.

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    163. Jack Bauer 24: He wasn’t at Eastwatch either.

      Wasn’t the plan for him to go to Winterfell? I’m guessing he’s either on his way there if he hadn’t arrived already or they brought him back to Dragonstone.

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    164. Drew West,

      Not entirely alone. Season 4 remains my favorite, and there are some elements to this season that make it my (maybe?) least favorite. I’m not passing judgment yet though, since I did like this season. I don’t think that D&D are just making a mess of it, though. They are fallible (as much as I like to pretend otherwise), but I wonder if it is just the nature of the show and its trajectory that has gotten us here. For me, the issue is it feels more like a typical sort of fantasy / action show at this point, rather than the unique drama it has been up until this point. I wondered if the change in tone has to do more with the narrowing of the focus and the omnipresence of the dragons. All in all, this is still my fave show. I think we should all reserve judgment and be kind to each other in this debate.

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    165. Awesome finale! So much stuff happened that I’ve been waiting for (Jaime leaving Cersei, the Wall coming down…)

      I loved the scene between Tyrion & Cersei, the reunion between Brienne & the Hound, Littlefinger’s death scene (though I will oddly miss him), everything with Theon… So much awesomeness!

      I have to give major props to Jeremy Podeswa as well. I’ve always felt that his strength was atmosphere, rather than action, so this was a perfect episode for him. And he did a fantastic job.

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    166. Jack Bauer 24,

      Yep, if he’s not at Eastwatch or in King’s Landing, there is no other possible place he could be. He has vanished. You found the plot hole! 1,000,000 Internet points!

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    167. I just realized something.

      Jaime is on the road. He’s alone.

      There’s a still a chance for Lady Stonetits!

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    168. BranTheBlessed,

      What are you talking about? I’m not disgusted by incest in itself. I’m just really tired of the trope of relatives having sex and then finding out and making a fuss about it. Storywise it’s boring and feels lazy to me. Also, Jon was raised a Stark. I’m pretty sure he’ll have a problem with incest and I’m really not interested in seeing him brood about it. I’m here to see him fight the Night’s King and ride a dragon.

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    169. Tycho Nestoris: Re When did they begin conspiring.

      Sam leaves The Citadel (via buggy) in ep 5 (Eastwatch). Arya finds the planted letter in ep 5 (Eastwatch). Let’s say Sam left around/> the same time Arya found the letter.


      Petyr’s trial occurs in ep 7. Sam arrives at Winterfell in ep 7 (buggy). I don’t have a good feel for how much time passed between Petyr’s trial and Sam’s arrival. My guess would be weeks®

      Still, I think there’s a significant gap between when Arya finds the letter and Petyr’s trial (based on Sam’s travel time). I think Sam used roads because his horse buggy at The Citadel looks like the same one he pulled into Winterfell on.

      This gap, in my opinion, is large enough that the answer to this question is another question (based soley on audience interpretation of a character). How long would Sansa (and Arya and Bran by proxy) toy with LF knowing full well they could sentence him?

      I prefer the plan to be hatched in the weirwood scene between the three Starks. So imo, they have been toying with him for some time. I think Sam’s travel (minus the gap from Petyr’s trial and Sam’s arrival) was at least 2-4 months.

      Doesn’t make sense. What was the squabble for last week in the room? LF wasn’t there.

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    170. Yaga: Our protagonists have started to break the feudal confines caging them.

      If so, then only in very general terms. Daenerys is keen to stop the general oppression of the masses: but it still is very much along the lines of benign despotism. Mind you, benign despotism is a huge step forward: but at best, we might see some sort of elevation to “Magna Carta”!

      (I’ve seen a couple of comments about how they need to rewrite the constitution: but they cannot do that until they actually have a constitution, can they!)

      talvikorppi: I’ve just realised definite proof of Stark sib collaboration. Remember, Arya gave the dagger to Sansa after their creepy scene.

      They were in Arya’s room at the time. There is no reason to think that Sansa did not just set it back down. I mean, it’s not very Lady-like to carry a big whomping dagger around the place, is it?

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    171. Jack Bauer 24,

      I wrote on the chat thread. I prefer to read that as a kind of in show method acting between Arya and Sansa. If you are going to toy him, he has to believe it. So over the course of those 2-4 months, they stay in character by treating EVERY situation as if LF is watching, even if/when he isn’t.

      I will add that because of the time gap, I think the writers, by intention or not, gave the audience all kinds of leeway (perhaps too much) to fill in blanks.

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    172. WorfWWorfington:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Yep, if he’s not at Eastwatch or in King’s Landing, there is no other possible place he could be. He has vanished. You found the plot hole! 1,000,000 Internet points!

      😀 😀 😀

      Keep up the good work – I’m taking a break! Those zombie wights have more intelligence 😛

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    173. ghost of winterfell,

      If we momentarily entertain a scenario in which Dany and Jon both survive, we’re getting co-rulers. There’s no dramatic tension in taking the one character who has never wanted to rule, spending seven seasons building up to the reveal that he’s the heir to the Iron Throne, and then just having him say, “Nah.” The crown rests heavily on both of their heads. Quite literally in the books for Dany, and we’ve already seen how much she enjoys the day-to-day of ruling from her time in Meereen. Daario even lampshaded it. Neither one of them would enjoy a solo rule, which is why I think part of the new political structure that emerges in the event that they both make it out alive will be two monarchs sharing the power and responsibility instead of one. Spending this much time on Jon’s true identity only to render it pointless in the final six episodes doesn’t make sense. This needed to be revealed and dealt with much earlier in the series if it isn’t directly impacting the endgame. Jon doesn’t need to be the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne in order for the truth of his parentage to hit him hard, nor is it necessary if he keeps on relinquishing his titles anyway, this being no exception. In any scenario where he survives the endgame, this will be the one title he won’t hand over.

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    174. Sean C.: This is definitely not from the books

      In the first book, Arya overhears Varys tell Illyrio about the plan. In the second book, Catelyn hears Renly tell Stannis that he was trying to make Margaery Robert’s queen, not Robert’s whore. Ned himself had mistaken Renly’s inquiry about whether Margaery looked like Lyanna to be Renly trying to emulate his older brother, but the actual idea was that Robert would be smitten by a Lyanna-alike.

      rfresa: Yeah, they shouldn’t have used the word “annulment”.

      “Annulment” is the modern word for the general concept. Although it’s made clear in the books that set-aside = annul or divorce, it is smarter cinema to just use a modern word (or a more “old-fashioned” modern term: most divorce no longer includes annulment anymore).

      At any rate, this was all a nice little setup: it told us that Rhaegar could have ended his marriage. And, of course, if you happen to be the Crown-Prince, well, then getting the Pope to do it secretly is going to be a lot easier than it would be for other people.

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    175. Direcat,

      It was because Jerome Flynn and Lena Headey can’t be in scenes together.

      This was a longstanding rumour, but I wasn’t sure if it was true or not until this episode.

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    176. mau,

      heh, it’s remarkable how well that parallels popular and critical reaction to the corresponding books for the first five seasons.

      For what it’s worth, I hope that continues!

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    177. What are you talking about? I’m not disgusted by incest in itself. I’m just really tired of the trope of relatives having sex and then finding out and making a fuss about it. Storywise it’s boring and feels lazy to me. Also, Jon was raised a Stark. I’m pretty sure he’ll have a problem with incest and I’m really not interested in seeing him brood about it. I’m here to see him fight the Night’s King and ride a dragon.

      Trope? I guess you’re reading different stories than I am, because I can’t think of a single story where secret relatives fell in love and hooked up only to later find out they were related.

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    178. FRAN,

      I know others have already addressed this, but inheritance laws tend to take into account two things: birth order, and gender. The gender rules for the Iron Throne have been agnatic (male only) in practice since the Targaryens took power, although there’s never been a situation where only a female heir remained, so we’re not sure what would have happened in such a case. This issue may also have been somewhat confused because of the whole incest thing; daughters’ claims were sort of negated by the fact that they married their ruling brothers. The Targs also practice primogeniture, which means that the line of the firstborn inherits before any of the later-born children are taken into consideration. So because Rhaegar is firstborn, his line comes before Viserys or Daenerys.

      Most of the rest of Westeros appears to practice agnatic-cognatic primogeniture, which means that there’s a preference for male inheritance, but a female can inherit if there are no male heirs. And female heirs of a lord take precedence over the lord’s brothers, in this case – in the book there’s a situation where Alys Karstark has to press her claim against her uncle, and Jon supports her.

      In Dorne, though, they practice absolute cognatic primogeniture, which means that the first child inherits, regardless of gender. This is not as well conveyed in the show as in the books, but it’s one of the things that makes Dorne distinct.

      In a real life example, the throne of England passed through agnatic-cognatic primogeniture for most of history, but when the latest round of royal offspring was born, the law was changed to a system of absolute cognatic inheritance. So if that first pregnancy had produced a daughter instead of a son, she would have come next in line after Charles and William, and ahead of any younger brothers.

      So yeah, Jon’s claim is better than Dany’s, on a strictly legal basis. Dragons may complicate things. So might the fact that the two of them are sleeping together. Fun times ahead once R+L=J is revealed to Westeros, I’m sure.

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    179. Did the scene with Arya/Bran/Sansa and LF remind anyone of a pack surrounding their prey? I was really struck by this when Arya moved in a little closer and LF looked surrounded by the Starks. This was an awesome moment. There weren’t as many wolves as Nymeria’s wolf pack, but still I have to think this was intentional.

      I would really like to know when Arya and Sansa’s ruse began. I could believe it began from the very beginning, since Arya could have used one of her faces to break into LF’s room, but my guess now is that she wanted him to see her. I’m just not sure if it was all a ruse though. I think Arya did need to help Sansa face some truths about herself and talk things out even in her creepy way. I guess to D&D it doesn’t really matter. They were trying to build up the surprise of final reveal, but to me it does matter when the ruse started and if any of those conversations had at least some truth in them, and in the end with Bran’s help the Starks came together.

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    180. Tron79: Did the scene with Arya/Bran/Sansa and LF remind anyone of a pack surrounding their prey?

      Good catch! Particularly the way that Arya circled while the Alpha stared…..

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    181. Adam: I guess you’re reading different stories than I am, because I can’t think of a single story where secret relatives fell in love and hooked up only to later find out they were related.

      Ah, the good old Kullervo: that makes for happy reading!

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    182. I said this in the open chat thread, but Tormund and Beric appeared to still be on top of the wall when it fell, and not on the part of it that fell. I don’t think they were running down, which would have been a totally pointless attempt at escape in the first place. They were running west, and a small enough portion fell that they could easily have cleared it given the 5-7 minutes it seems to take for Viserion to carve out enough to start the collapse. Provided this is what happened, their survival is way more plausible than Jaime’s survival in the lake with full armor. Anybody at the bottom of the wall or on the stairs surviving that collapse would about the least plausible survival I can think of.

      And Gendry is almost certainly on his way to Winterfell, which is where he was originally supposed to be going in the first place before the wight hunt diverted him. He obviously can’t go to the dragonpit since Cersei presumably doesn’t realize he’s still alive and there isn’t much reason to bring him back to Dragonstone, which doesn’t have a properly manned forge as Winterfell does, and he’s a smith, not a miner. There is also no reason to keep him at the wall since he isn’t part of the Night’s Watch, isn’t part of Tormund’s party, isn’t going to want to join Beric, and would otherwise be fairly useless there anyway.

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    183. talvikorppi:
      Rrriiiight, the WF storyline.

      I cheered so hard when LF got his comeuppance, at the hands of Sansa, helped by her siblings. You know, the pack. Yay!

      Let’s get the criticism out of the way. The plot/scheme by LF was rather simple by LF-standards. He’s been involved in far more intricate plots and schemes over the years. Maybe this is where lack of GRRM source material shows. For all I know, GRRM only told D&D that Sansa would take down LF with the help of her siblings (which is rather apparent to any book reader anyway because foreshadowing), and, not wanting to invent something elaborate (I’m sure if GRRM ever gets around to publishing the last 2-4 books, it will be hell of a lot more elaborate) D&D went with a fairly straightforward approach. So, LF’s downfall was slightly disappointing because it was over such a simple scheme.

      I agree that it was simplistic for a LF scheme but I think the argument can be made that LF didn’t have the resources he used to from which to draw. He had his own network of spies in KL, while in WF was see him paying 1 girl, presumably for information. He had his brothels and catered to all inclinations, some belonging to powerful people, I’m sure, that wouldn’t want that kind of information being public knowlege. So, he had plenty of quid-pro-quo leverage there.

      We have been consistently reminded that the North is different. The people and their motivations, save perhaps the Boltons, were far more simple and took their oaths more seriously. Winters are harsher; honor and oaths mean something if you wish to survive. And, lest we forget, the Starks were good wardens. In KL it’s like Robert lamented to Cersei: it’s all money grubbing and arse licking. LF excels in the environment where a well placed coin or word could move you up the social ladder.

      LF’s problem wasn’t his scheme considering what he was working with. His problem was he didn’t understand that the North is different. The North remembers.

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    184. Jack Bauer 24:
      When did Ned say the “pack survives” quote in the show?

      At some point during the many months he spent traveling and living with Sansa and giving her fatherly guidance that got compressed into 15 minutes of air time over several episodes in season one. It might even be a family saying they’ve heard hundreds of times growing up before the show ever started, for all we know.

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    185. Tycho Nestoris:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      I wrote on the chat thread. I prefer to read that as a kind of in show method acting between Arya and Sansa. If you are going to toy him, he has to believe it. So over the course of those 2-4 months, they stay in character by treating EVERY situation as if LF is watching, even if/when he isn’t.

      I will add that because of the time gap, I think the writers, by intention or not, gave the audience all kinds of leeway (perhaps too much) to fill in blanks.

      We saw LF meet with a woman in Winterfell, even if LF himself could not be everywhere it’s very probable that he had some servants feeding him information for money. Winterfell will be full of servants and any that LF turned could be anywhere at anytime – bedchambers or other living quarters. We saw how Arya was able to eavesdrop quite openly in S2 at Harrenhal, so it’s easy for her to assume that they might be overheard more by servants doing their duties.

      EDIT: or what Erica said just before me!

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    186. Tron79: Thanks. I’ll look for the Alpha stare.

      heh, Nymmeria gave a great one!

      On a side note, I do hope that Nymmeria was a gun-hanging for next year. Not that I particularly care for dire wolf scenes one way or the other, but the scene was pretty pointless otherwise. (And, no, it did not really provide “closure” of any sort.)

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    187. Arya Snark:
      talvikorppi,

      Ooooh, I missed Jaime’s black horse. That’s fascinating!

      I’ve been on “Jaime horse watch” for years, just because of the cliche “knight in shining armour on a white charger” and – apart from his captivity – it’s always fitted. Kind of an inside joke within the production, but it HAS to be intentional.

      They only have a limited number of horse “actors” trained to do stuff, and they’ve always made sure Jaime had the white one, even if filming took place in different countries. In S6, Jaime (breathtakingly sexily) rode his white charger, quite large and strong (so perhaps even a stallion) , up the steps of the Sept of Baelor (filming location in Spain), and an episode or two later (filming location Northern Ireland) rode a pretty, much smaller white horse (perhaps a gelding or a mare) with really pretty, small, furry ears in the “Riverlands”. The same pretty horse with the same pretty, almond-shaped pretty furry ears has been ridden by other characters. The big reddish bay gelding has been ridden by Brienne and Davos on different occasions, probably suitable for actors not so proficient in horsemanship.

      What I’m trying to say is that previously, the production has gone out of their way to always find a white horse for Jaime. And now he rides north, alone, on a black (or dark bay) horse. That was no accident.

      Also, Jaime is not wearing his shiny KG or Lannister armour, he’s wearing similar to what Pod wears, or northerners, be they lords or men-at-arms. But he’s still got a Valyrian steel sword, Widow’s Wail. So named by the cunt that was Joffrey. Half – less than half – of Ned’s “Ice”. Brienne has the bigger part, “Oathkeeper”, given to her by one Ser Jaime. Oh, they have matching swords!!! Gee, I wonder if that’ll mean anything, haha. Especially because one of the absolute best swordsmen in the Seven Kingdoms as was is now only fair to middling with his off hand. Humbling, and stuff like that, aye?

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    188. Ser Not Appearing in this Series: We saw LF meet with a woman in Winterfell, even if LF himself could not be everywhere it’s very probable that he had some servants feeding him information for money.

      If that was the case, then they should have shown servants nearby or something like that, and LF talking to them at some point. It is bad storytelling to leave it to our imaginations: we need to be able to take it for granted in some way.

      I think that the last episode itself provided us with everything that we need. Sansa did not trust Arya: but LF’s little game led Sansa to a “conclusion” that she knew was false: part of what makes Arya strange is that Arya does not want to be Lady of Winterfell. (I know: what gives with that?) And if Sansa is going to play the game with Arya, well, why not play it with LF?

      At any rate, had the siblings planned it, then it should have come up in the sisters’ conversation. If nothing else, then Arya would not have apologized for what she said: there, Arya is admitting that she had wronged her sister.

      On a side note, “You’r still strange and annoying” could be the “win” line from that episode.

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    189. Adam: At some point during the many months he spent traveling and living with Sansa and giving her fatherly guidance that got compressed into 15 minutes of air time over several episodes in season one. It might even be a family saying they’ve heard hundreds of times growing up before the show ever started, for all we know.

      He never spoke the words in the show

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    190. talvikorppi: What I’m trying to say is that previously, the production has gone out of their way to always find a white horse for Jaime. And now he rides north, alone, on a black (or dark bay) horse. That was no accident.

      Huh, I missed that, but I think that you are correct. What makes movies/TV kind of fun is that you can do these small visual things without calling attention to it and thus putting it in the back of our heads rather than in the front.

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    191. BranTheBlessed,

      Tyrion needs to worry about his own judgement.Ha. He’s made as many mistakes as Dany, Jorah and Jon combined. Including suggesting the Beyond the Wall mission, and not seeing/anticipating Cersei’s double cross.

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    192. Wimsey: If that was the case, then they should have shown servants nearby or something like that, and LF talking to them at some point. It is bad storytelling to leave it to our imaginations: we need to be able to take it for granted in some way.

      It’s not the point that there were servants nearby and on the take, but that the chance that there might be and behaving accordingly. It’s called tradecraft 😉

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    193. Ser Not Appearing in this Series: We saw LF meet with a woman in Winterfell, even if LF himself could not be everywhere it’s very probable that he had someservants feeding him information for money. Winterfell will be full of servants and any that LF turned could be anywhere at anytime – bedchambers or other living quarters. We saw how Arya was able to eavesdrop quite openly in S2 at Harrenhal, so it’s easy for her to assume that they might be overheard moreby servants doing their duties.

      EDIT: or what Erica said just before me!

      Why did Arya apologize to Sansa on the balcony for what she said then?

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    194. I noticed that slow learning had a little bit of a minor theme this season as well and I liked it. Jaime and Sansa both acknowledged being slow learners, which resulted in both of them also finally making the big decision to remove the toxic pieces from their boards. It may have seemed like Jaime’s big learning moment was with his battle strategy, but it really was to finally dump Cersei so he could be free do what he was meant to do.

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    195. In case anyone was wondering, the actor who played Rhaegar is Wilf Scolding

      I actually liked that he resembled Viserys since even bookDany mistook Rhaegar for Viserys during her visions in the House of the Undying.

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    196. The Het:
      viki,

      Hannah Murray is credited in this episode, and yet she only appears silently in the wagon in the courtyard of Winterfell, such a pity… And then as you say Sam takes all the credit, I’m sure he’s going to pay the wildling price for that 🙂

      To be fair, Gilley had no idea what she was reading.

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    197. LadyMelisandre:
      I noticed that slow learning had a little bit of a minor theme this season as well and I liked it. Jaime and Sansa both acknowledged being slow learners, which resulted in both of them also finally making the big decision to remove the toxic pieces from their boards. It may have seemed like Jaime’s big learning moment was with his battle strategy, but it really was to finally dump Cersei so he could be free do what he was meant to do.

      While I didn’t know Sansa would utter that line, echoing Jaime, it was their “awakening” this season, this seeming to come into their own, that made them the MVP’s this season.

      Jaime wins it for me, btw. His was organic and logical whereas, as impressed as I was with Sansa this season, I still can’t quite reconcile whatever that bullshit was between her and Arya, regardless of any explanation I see. The payoff made it worth it, though, so color me most satisfied.

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    198. Erica,

      This does beg the question of why Littlefinger didn’t just say, “Welp, I’m needed in the Vale!” as soon as he realized Arya could fight like that. Or really, at about 15 other times when he had the chance.

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    199. Jack Bauer 24: Why did Arya apologize to Sansa on the balcony for what she said then?

      Questions, questions, questions from you isn’t it! Try thinking about it and coming up with your own ideas once in a while…

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    200. Wimsey,

      OOH I really want a ‘like’ button! Having done some bits of ethology (long ago) it really is the teamwork with the alpha and the second… I only did a bit with primates, and alas not with the wolves that I’d have loved to, but my tutors were doing that…

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    201. WorfWWorfington:
      Erica,

      This does beg the question of why Littlefinger didn’t just say, “Welp, I’m needed in the Vale!” as soon as he realized Arya could fight like that. Or really, at about 15 other times when he had the chance.

      Sheer arrogance on his part and his complete underestimation of a girl who finally knows who she is and where and what that means.

      Besides, we’d miss out on that “blink and you missed it” throat slash!

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    202. Adam: Trope? I guess you’re reading different stories than I am, because I can’t think of a single story where secret relatives fell in love and hooked up only to later find out they were related.

      The original mother*ucker Oedipus comes to mind, as well as Tolkien’s The Children of Húrin, wherein Túrin Turambar lies with his sister Níniel (although I think it might be inspired by The Story of Kullervo that Wimsey mentioned above.).

      There was also a craptastic German soap opera that started in the late 90s called Forbidden Love. Its premise was that a twin brother and a twin sister were separated at birth only to fall in love as adults. Draaaaaamaaaaa! 🙂

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    203. Adam: Trope? I guess you’re reading different stories than I am, because I can’t think of a single story where secret relatives fell in love and hooked up only to later find out they were related.

      Ring cycle?

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    204. Erica,

      I really like this show change. Book Jaime left because she was cheating on him.

      Show Jaime left because she went behind his back and clearly had no respect for him. The “You’re the stupidest Lannister” thing just sent me over the edge.

      I think it’s a better choice.

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    205. WorfWWorfington:
      Erica,

      I really like this show change. Book Jaime left because she was cheating on him.

      Show Jaime left because she went behind his back and clearly had no respect for him. The “You’re the stupidest Lannister” thing just sent me over the edge.

      I think it’s a better choice.

      Definitely!

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    206. Vally,

      There’s a movie called “Lone Star” where a longtime on-again/off-again couple learns they are half-brother and sister. They decide to stay together, figuring, “Eh, no one else knows”

      Someday, when I have some time, I’m going to re-write a few GoT scripts with JackBauer24 references included. They’ll be 4 hours long each, but I think you’ll like them.

      Sansa: Remember that thing about the pack that Father said
      Arya: Did he say it to you? I don’t ever recall it.
      Sansa: Well, maybe that was before these weird people with the cameras showed up. But I know he did.
      Arya: Yeah, I recall it too. Hey, how did you know Ramsay hadn’t fed his dogs?
      Sansa: Jon told me. I know, I should have said it to the camera people. My mistake. How exactly did you survive those stab wounds?
      Arya: The camera people fixed me up. Gave me something called penicillin. Worked great.

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    207. Jack Bauer 24: If they were playing LF from the beginning as you suggest, Arya would not have apologized on the balcony.

      Why not? You can plan something in advance, do some improv, realize later that you may have crossed a line in attempt for realistic hurt feelings and then apologize for it once the ends have justified the means. Totally human thing to do.

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    208. Jack Bauer 24,

      I don’t say I believe that they were playing Littlefinger from the start, just looking at both sides of the argument. People can choose for themselves which version is “right”. There’s people going to criticise it whichever version is what the writers intended. that’s one thing that’s clear, and that is a shortcoming of the writing.

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    209. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Just the predictable Littlefinger death and the excruciating Lyanna/Rhaegar discussion while Jon and Dany doink, for no apparent reason other than to fulfil this awkward incest storyline and, based on the dialogue over the last couple of episodes, produce a magic Targaryen incest baby.

      As opposed to the golden-haired incest babies that recently sat on the iron throne (and Myrcella)?

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    210. Vally: The original mother*ucker Oedipus comes to mind, as well as Tolkien’s The Children of Húrin, wherein Túrin Turambar lies with his sister Níniel (although I think it might be inspired by The Story of Kullervo that Wimsey mentioned above.).

      There was also a craptastic German soap opera that started in the late 90s called Forbidden Love. Its premise was that a twin brother and a twin sister were separated at birth only to fall in love as adults. Draaaaaamaaaaa!

      Don’t forget the masterpiece of a generation: Flowers in the Attic. 🙂

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    211. WorfWWorfington:
      Vally,

      There’s a movie called “Lone Star” where a longtime on-again/off-again couple learns they are half-brother and sister. They decide to stay together, figuring, “Eh, no one else knows”

      Someday, when I have some time, I’m going to re-write a few GoT scripts with JackBauer24 references included. They’ll be 4 hours long each, but I think you’ll like them.

      Sansa: Remember that thing about the pack that Father said
      Arya: Did he say it to you? I don’t ever recall it.
      Sansa: Well, maybe that was before these weird people with the cameras showed up. But I know he did.
      Arya: Yeah, I recall it too. Hey, how did you know Ramsay hadn’t fed his dogs?
      Sansa: Jon told me. I know, I should have said it to the camera people. My mistake. How exactly did you survive those stab wounds?
      Arya: The camera people fixed me up. Gave me something called penicillin. Worked great.

      I’d pay to see that. Sounds like a reality show on MTV.

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    212. Ser Not Appearing in this Series:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      I don’t say I believe that they were playing Littlefinger from the start, just looking at both sides of the argument. People can choose for themselves which version is “right”. There’s people going to criticise it whichever version is what the writers intended. that’s one thing that’s clear, and that is a shortcoming of the writing.

      The problem is we don’t know what version the writers intended! Everyone is divided on it and they did not explain it in the bts video after the episode.

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    213. Luzbeliten,

      I think the Night King was waiting for the dragons to come North before finally assaulting the Wall. He seems to be a greenseer like Bran – he knew Jon and company were coming for a wight, and he laid a trap to get at least one dragon. Since the Wall has magic built into it, only a magical weapon (a dragon) can bring it down.

      Also, it seems wight Viserion’s corpse is already beginning to rot, if the holes in his wings are an indication. Maybe in S8 he’ll look like the wight horses with decaying flesh hanging off and skeleton bones exposed. Yikes.

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    214. Jack Bauer 24: The problem is we don’t know what version the writers intended! Everyone is divided on it and they did not explain it in the bts video after the episode.

      Their explanation was rather weak on this point. I don’t need to be spoonfed but this was too much of a head-scratcher for too many people not to warrant more information. I still hate the way the Soprano’s “leave it to your imagination” ending went. I invested too much time to get no payoff, but, alas, their stories are not over yet, at least. I can let it go because the payoff was there.

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    215. Wimsey: talvikorppi

      Well, it’s a visual media. I’m sure I’ve missed a ton of visual clues myself. I’ve only latched on to the horse thing because being a bit “horsey” myself.

      Brienne and Davos regularly ride the same horse, even if they’re hundreds of miles apart. And no, this “continuity issue” doesn’t bother me at all.

      But Jaime has always ridden a white horse. Until now. So it means something. He’s also shed the “shining armour”. He’s not pretending to be the knight in shining armour on a white charger anymore. He’s finally honest. Just a knight on a quest… And I think he feels relieved and happy about it. Probably thinks he’ll now be the man he was meant to be. Let’s see how long that lasts before his past comes to bite him in the arse, before he admits his complicity in the events of past 20 or so years, and the current mess.

      Some of the reunions or meetings I’m most looking forward to in S8 is Jaime-Dany (he killed her father) and Jaime-Bran (he tried to kill Bran, instead crippled him for life). Ah, Jaime, Jaime, Jaime… Can you ever redeem yourself?

      He’ll, of course, NEVER redeem himself in the eyes of some fans, especially the Stark fanatics. I don’t think he’ll ever redeem himself in the eyes of Westeros at large either. But there will be some people who will see him as the man he was meant to be. Brienne, for one, and even Bran, Jon or Dany. Oh, and Jaime will not survive the series, no matter how much I want him to retire to Tarth as the consort of the ruling lady and have lots of awesome warrior babies. Jaime is dooooomed, I just hope he’ll get to do something heroic before he dies. Is that too much to ask? OK, this is GoT, it is too much to ask.

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    216. Flora Linden: Also, it seems wight Viserion’s corpse is already beginning to rot, if the holes in his wings are an indication. Maybe in S8 he’ll look like the wight horses with decaying flesh hanging off and skeleton bones exposed. Yikes.

      I was impressed by what they’d done there, with the holes in the wings. Poor Viserion!

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    217. Grey Worm escaped Euron’s siege seemingly unharmed and owned the incredible opening shots of the episode…but then he didn’t do anything else…

      I wonder if GW and the Unsullied are still standing outside KL awaiting further instructions…?

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    218. BranTheBlessed,

      I know. I keep seeing the same comments about this, disgusted with the whole incest thing. Forgetting that in their world first off that marrying cousins was very common and that the whole Targ dynasty is built upon incest.

      Also it seems like in GRRM world the only thing that incest brings to a child is potential insanity, otherwise Gilly’s baby (who is I think her brother-son) would be pretty deformed. Gilly herself is a daughter-wife of Craster.

      In regards to Jon though, I thought the voiceover from Bran was a sign that Jon/Dany will say F it to whatever haters are against them. Rhaegar and Lyanna destroyed a kingdom for love. “He loved her and she loved him” – and screw the consequences.

      I can see Jon and Dany thinking the same at some point if anyone should go against them. Not sure who…but some small part of me wants to see Jon and Dany riding Drogon and Rhaegal conquering all who do not bend the knee.

      I find it funny, people want things to be shown on screen or discussed so we get answers….

      Meanwhile I’m still sitting her trying to figure out wtf happened after the black screen on Sopranos finale. 10 years later.

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    219. Flayed Potatoes:
      talvikorppi,

      Stark fan here who also loves Jaime. Don’t worry, there are several of us who believe in his redemption.

      yup me too.. I think I cheered as loud for Jamie leaving Cersie and heading out alone as I did for LF got played by stark kids scene

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    220. Erica: re: Jon Snow
      played by an unknown baby in
      * Season 6: 1 episode

      That baby was a great casting decision. He nailed the Jon Snow brooding look.

        Quote  Reply

    221. Hodors Bastard: I wonder if GW and the Unsullied are still standing outside KL awaiting further instructions…?

      Now we know what Tyrion was doing at the end, he was just informing Deanerys they forgot to inform Greyworm that they were going home. Looks like he need to swim this time to dragonstone. And you see he’s a real friend of Jon, because he rather wait than cockblock Jon.

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    222. kevin1989: Now we know what Tyrion was doing at the end, he was just informing Deanerys they forgot to inform Greyworm that they were going home. Looks like he need to swim this time to dragonstone. And you see he’s a real friend of Jon, because he rather wait than cockblock Jon.

      Total bro!

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    223. damned man,

      Welcome Damned Man!

      I like your question. I don’t think we really got a clear answer on that. We know what Sansa said to LF, but they were alone and at that point I’m not certain if Sansa’s comments were baiting LF or her true feelings. Nothing else was shown or said to indicate a reaction. Not even from Arya. I cannot imagine it going over well, Jon has got some explaining to do!

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    224. What an episodes, there wasn’t a moment in didn’t like.

      Meeting of Characters/ dragonpit: amazing loved every moment of it. Especially the hound, what did he say to the mountain, something like that he’s even uglier than he is at the moment.

      Loved the Cercei/ Tyrion moment. I understand Cercei 100% after the losses of her children. Do I agree with her? hell no. As to rephrase uncle Iroh from the Last airbender: she’s crazy and she needs to go down. But I think for the first time she realised that even after all the shit she put Tyrion through, he still loves her deep down and that he will do everything to protect her children. I think he switched sides.

      – Loved the ending with Jaime, he finally understands what needs to be done. But even how crazy Cercei is, she couldn’t let him get killed. wonder how this will play out next season.

      – The Eagon Targ revelation was amazing. We can put aside the Y Griff character for the show, they made that clear with the name changing. Wonder how Dany will react to this.

      – And how could we not love the WF ending? LF is gone, the player got played. The pack is back together.

      – Loved the ending, was predictable but amazing. Would have loved it more if the episode would have started with this and just ended with the stark girls. But I understand the need for a big cliffhanger

      But my favorite scenes was the Theon scenes. The only time my eyes were wet this episode. He redeemed himself. You’re a Greyjoy, you’re a stark.

      Can we still rename the episode to: The Dragon, the Wolf and the Kraken? Theon deserved it.

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    225. Anyone think Euron is actually going to pick up the Golden Company and turn them over to Cerse’s command? I don’t. I think he either bounced back to the Iron Islands because he legit got freaked out and/or didn’t appreciate being ordered around by Cersei & Jaime. (Plus she’s pregnant and it isn’t his–whether he knew or not, he will.)

      I think if anything, he’ll use them against her in KL.

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    226. onefromaway,

      I think the thing to take from all of Sansa’s conversations with Littlefinger is this:

      She’s mostly speaking the truth. I think she is a little scared of Arya. I think the Northern lords drive her crazy with their whining. I think she is pissed (and has the right to be) about Jon unilaterally pledging an entire region to Danerys. And from a purely administrative point of view, Sansa does feel she’s better at running things than Jon.

      It’s easier to keep track of the stories if you’re mostly telling the truth. You notice she doesn’t talk about Bran with him?

      You also, in my opinion, have to understand that Sansa and Arya aren’t friends. They aren’t close. If this story was transported to the modern world, they’d be sisters who live on opposite sides of the country and see each other at Christmas. But they live in a small town and they have to work together to run the family business.

      There will be tension and there will be disagreements and when all this is over, it’s entirely possible that Arya will go join some pack of sellswords (or open Heroes for Hire: Westerosi with the Hound) and that Sansa will settle in to marrying that Ned Umber kid or some Dornish minor lord or someone else she can boss around and still remain at Winterfell.

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    227. And right before giving the order to execute LF, Sansa confides in him that she’s upset about Jon pledging to Dany without asking advice. That was a ruse too?

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    228. Flayed Potatoes:
      talvikorppi,

      Stark fan here who also loves Jaime. Don’t worry, there are several of us who believe in his redemption.

      Oh, I was a total Starkist to begin with… Still am. But a total Jaime fan as well. I came to this universe by watching S3. Yeah, I hadn’t seen S1 or S2 or read the books, so it was a bit confusing, hahaha! But maybe that’s why I don’t hold the sainted Ned as the paragon of all that is good.

      My first introduction to Jaime was when this lady knight pulled this ragged guy through a hedge (S3E2) and he was loquacious and sarky. I had no idea who he was but I fell in love with this character. Especially later when he saves the lady knight (who he apparently didn’t even particularly like) from rape – and gets his sword hand lopped off for his trouble – and THE BATH SCENE and later saves the maiden from being killed by a bear. So, yes, I’m totally biassed when it comes to Jaime, haha.

      A note on book info I’ve since then gleaned. In the books, when Jaime saves Brienne from the bear, he asks

      “Are you still a maiden?” Brienne blushes but admits, Jaime nods, “Good. I only rescue maidens.” Now, that’s a fairly cynical joke on Jaime’s part, playing on the cliche of the perfect knight. But a book later a woman who decidedly is not a maiden asks him to save her… and he burns the letter. Jaime only rescues maidens, heh? Cersei’s vagina’s status wasn’t the only thing but I think it’s important that Jaime doesn’t rush to her side, instead continues his military mission and meets Brienne again, goes off with her… And that’s all we know from the books, haha!

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    229. They keep quoting Ned, but what about the “man that passes the sentence to swing the sword”? Did Sansa forget that?

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    230. WorfWWorfington:
      onefromaway,

      I think the thing to take from all of Sansa’s conversations with Littlefinger is this:

      She’s mostly speaking the truth. I think she is a little scared of Arya. I think the Northern lords drive her crazy with their whining. I think she is pissed (and has the right to be) about Jon unilaterally pledging an entire region to Danerys. And from a purely administrative point of view, Sansa does feel she’s better at running things than Jon.

      It’s easier to keep track of the stories if you’re mostly telling the truth. You notice she doesn’t talk about Bran with him?

      You also, in my opinion, have to understand that Sansa and Arya aren’t friends. They aren’t close. If this story was transported to the modern world, they’d be sisters who live on opposite sides of the country and see each other at Christmas. But they live in a small town and they have to work together to run the family business.

      There will be tension and there will be disagreements and when all this is over, it’s entirely possible that Arya will go join some pack of sellswords (or open Heroes for Hire: Westerosi with the Hound) and that Sansa will settle in to marrying that Ned Umber kid or some Dornish minor lord or someone else she can boss around and still remain at Winterfell.

      Fantastic breakdown.

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    231. Jack Bauer 24:
      And right before giving the order to execute LF, Sansa confides in him that she’s upset about Jon pledging to Dany without asking advice. That was a ruse too?

      Jack Bauer 24:
      They keep quoting Ned, but what about the “man that passes the sentence to swing the sword”? Did Sansa forget that?

      Hodor?

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    232. Jack Bauer 24: Doesn’t make sense. What was the squabble for last week in the room? LF wasn’t there.

      No- but members of the household staff are being paid to give him information, and Arya knows this. In other words…LF has his own flock of little birds

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    233. Mawk,

      I think there’s a fairly simple reason why they inter-cut R+L and D+J. Its a nod to the title ‘The Song of Ice and Fire’ and hints at the entire point of the story.

      The story started off with the original Ice and Fire ( Lyanna and Rhaegar ), a union that proved the Catalyst for War and brought chaos into the World. This ties in with Bran’s narration during that Wedding scene- how Robert’s rebellion was built on lies, how R+L’s love for each other, though sweet, brought about terrible ramifications.

      Now with Dany and Jon, Fire and Ice come together again and obvious parallels are drawn with R+L, leaving the viewers to ponder whether D+J will suffer the same fate. This is why they had Tyrion’s worried reaction, to amp up the feeling of deja vu.

      But, history won’t repeat itself. Where R+L failed, D+J will succeed. Their union will end the Wars and bring peace and prosperity to the World. This is ‘The Song of Ice and Fire’.

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    234. Jack Bauer 24:
      They keep quoting Ned, but what about the “man that passes the sentence to swing the sword”? Did Sansa forget that?

      I think it’s a little bit more poetic with them. They even talked about it afterwards. I interpreted it as: They were sisters that didn’t understood each other, they do know. They found the love and respect for each other that is needed, they aren’t lone wolves anymore, they are a pack, they are sisters and much closer now. They together passes the sentence through Sansa, and swing the sword, through Arya.

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    235. Flayed Potatoes:
      Erica,

      It makes no sense for Euron to stay loyal to Cersei. I think he’ll take the Golden Company and use them against her.

      And that leads to something else….the Golden Company was founded by a bastard Targ (Blackfyre), right? In the books, they are supporting Young Griff, but since this is the show, do you think they might allow Euron to carry them to Westeros, only to kill Euron and wipe out the Lannister forces and/or join Dany/Jon?

        Quote  Reply

    236. Erica,

      I have no idea. Historically, the Golden Company has been against the legitimate Targaryens. Of course, if D&D want to change something, they won’t care about that and just go through with it (especially since there are no Blackfyres in the show). I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

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    237. Erica:
      We have been consistently reminded that the North is different. The people and their motivations, save perhaps the Boltons, were far more simple and took their oaths more seriously. Winters are harsher; honor and oaths mean something if you wish to survive.

      LF’s problem wasn’t his scheme considering what he was working with. His problem was he didn’t understand that the North is different. The North remembers.

      No, quite the opposite. The North is full of weasels on the show, from what we’ve seen.

      Indeed, the whole of Season 6 was a referendum on the idea that the North is different, with the verdict being that they aren’t (and indeed, I don’t think the North is different in the books; rather, they’re loyal to the Starks for the same reason that, say, the Vale is loyal to the Arryns and Dorne to the Martells). Sansa spent much of the season fretting about the loyalty of the banners merely because Jon had gone on a long trip to seek allies.

      Direcat:
      From an actor standpoint or a personal one?

      It’s an old bit of gossip that they used to date but the relationship ended badly.

      I didn’t think much of it either way, since while the two characters had never had scenes together, there wasn’t any particular reason that they would. But Bronn’s exit from the Dragonpit was so unmotivated that I can’t imagine it was for any other reason.

      Jack Bauer 24:
      They keep quoting Ned, but what about the “man that passes the sentence to swing the sword”? Did Sansa forget that?

      Sansa is not trained to swing a sword.

      Ned’s maxim, while good as a general notion that leaders shouldn’t be disconnected from the consequences of their actions, is a very patriarchal conception. It presumes that the person passing the sentence is an ablebodied man with martial training.

      Which, indeed, it usually is in the North.

      But there’s no way that this is always literally followed. Ned left Catelyn running the North whenever he was away (e.g. the Greyjoy rebellion). She obviously wasn’t hacking off criminals’ heads personally.

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    238. Sean C.: No, quite the opposite.The North is full of weasels on the show, from what we’ve seen.

      Indeed, the whole of Season 6 was a referendum on the idea that the North is different, with the verdict being that they aren’t (and indeed, I don’t think the North is different in the books; rather, they’re loyal to the Starks for the same reason that, say, the Vale is loyal to the Arryns and Dorne to the Martells).Sansa spent much of the season fretting about the loyalty of the banners merely because Jon had gone on a long trip to seek allies.

      It’s an old bit of gossip that they used to date but the relationship ended badly.

      I didn’t think much of it either way, since while the two characters had never had scenes together, there wasn’t any particular reason that they would.But Bronn’s exit from the Dragonpit was so unmotivated that I can’t imagine it was for any other reason.

      And some point you have to be professionals. Especially with the kind of money Lena is making now. Really petty.

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    239. BoiledLeather,

      Yes, I would guess that too. GRRM hinted at another “Dance of the dragons” and that should be Daenerys (with Dothraki and Unsullied) against fAegon (backed by Varys, Dorne and Highgarden) after fAegon takes down the Lannisters (which I hope he does, otherwise his plot is only diversion, but it could be that somehow Cersei survives while Kevan etc are killed and she manages to take power again — but given that Jaime already left her in the books, that would mean he might come back and leave again, or something, which would also be meandering).

      I think fAegon is also George’s way to prepare the audience that a true son of Rhaegar would come before Daenerys in the succession, and then at some point Jon be revealed to be such.

      I wouldn’t mind if Jon were not called Aegon, but I suppose this is something that GRRM would have decided in the beginning, no? Also, since there is a vision where Rhaegar says that Aegon will be the song of ice and fire, it is not unlikely that he named both his sons Aegon, once he realised that Elia’s Aegon would be more the song of fire and sun.

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    240. Erica: You also, in my opinion, have to understand that Sansa and Arya aren’t friends. They aren’t close. If this story was transported to the modern world, they’d be sisters who live on opposite sides of the country and see each other at Christmas. But they live in a small town and they have to work together to run the family business.

      I don’t agree entirely with this one. Arya actually cares deeply for Sansa by her second long hug when they had a reunion in the crypt. They definitely don’t see eye to eye and are opposites. Even though both of them are annoyed by the other sister (and Sansa even says this in her final scene), they don’t seem like they want to get away from each other. In fact, they both want to be together with their pack. It’s not like just doing your duty at a holiday party and going back to your life or even just saying hi at the office for the family business. I think they both realize they are stronger together when winter comes (winter is here… I loved seeing snow fall in Kings Landing!!)

      Btw, I have a wish for season 8. What if Arya saves the hound from the Mountain. The Mountain is definitely still on her list. That would be something wouldn’t it to have her team up with the Hound in some way and tag into the Cleganebowl.

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    241. Ok , season over.
      Tobias Menzies (Edmure Tully) was in Belfast during filming of S7.
      Was he there for some other production? Appeared and was cut?
      Leaves Edmure up in the air. Tho that could be resolved next season.

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    242. Jenny,
      Kfran,

      Re Bottoms

      It has probably been mentioned earlier in thread, but I think it is interesting that Jon starts on bottom then *dramatically* moves on top.🤔

        Quote  Reply

    243. Boojam:
      Ok , season over.
      Tobias Menzies (Edmure Tully) was in Belfast during filming of S7.
      Was he there for some other production? Appeared and was cut?
      Leaves Edmure up in the air. Tho that could be resolved next season.

      Wonder if it could have been for “Outlander”? Not sure where they film, tbh.

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    244. Boojam:
      Ok , season over.
      Tobias Menzies (Edmure Tully) was in Belfast during filming of S7.
      Was he there for some other production? Appeared and was cut?
      Leaves Edmure up in the air. Tho that could be resolved next season.

      We are never seeing Edmure again.

        Quote  Reply

    245. Sean C.: No, quite the opposite.The North is full of weasels on the show, from what we’ve seen.

      Indeed, the whole of Season 6 was a referendum on the idea that the North is different, with the verdict being that they aren’t (and indeed, I don’t think the North is different in the books; rather, they’re loyal to the Starks for the same reason that, say, the Vale is loyal to the Arryns and Dorne to the Martells).Sansa spent much of the season fretting about the loyalty of the banners merely because Jon had gone on a long trip to seek allies.

      I think the only weasels in the North were the Boltons. As for Sansa fretting, I think LF’s presence and her knowing his ability for duplicity magnified it all for her. She wants respect from Jon so she questions his moves only to have Arya come around and do the same to her. Not easy; it’s not clean, nor did I suggest they’re perfect stewards of their worlds. I think the lords were, by and large, in check. I think more would have been made of talks of treason against Jon if there was more to it than what we saw.

      By the way, and a bit off topic, I just realized that Ned died after 8 episodes in KL. LF held a dagger to throat.

      LF died after 8 episodes in WF with a Stark’s dagger to his throat. Two very different men, put in the other’s environment, and couldn’t survive it.

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    246. Tron79: I don’t agree entirely with this one. Arya actually cares deeply for Sansa by her second long hug when they had a reunion in the crypt. They definitely don’t see eye to eye and are opposites. Even though both of them are annoyed by the other sister (and Sansa even says this in her final scene), they don’t seem like they want to get away from each other. In fact, they both want to be together with their pack. It’s not like just doing your duty at a holiday party and going back to your life or even just saying hi at the office for the family business. I think they both realize they are stronger together when winter comes (winter is here… I loved seeing snow fall in Kings Landing!!)

      Btw, I have a wish for season 8.What if Arya saves the hound from the Mountain. The Mountain is definitely still on her list. That would be something wouldn’t it to have her team up with the Hound in some way and tag into the Cleganebowl.

      Just to clarify, I didn’t post that. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    247. Jack Bauer 24,

      So conducting a proper execution takes skill, and ladies aren’t trained to kill people.

      Arya’s throat-cutting, incidentally, why certainly satisfying and I doubt anybody feels bad for Littlefinger, is not really a proper Ned-style execution, which involves a clean and instantaneous severing of the head. But of course, Arya doesn’t have the upper-body strength to do that.

      Erica: I think the only weasels in the North were the Boltons.

      Lord Glover made a big show of pledging Jon his sword and undying loyalty in 610, and as of 705 was calling on him to be ousted for having been traveling too long.

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    248. For me in the end this season was a bit disappointing.
      Of course it was epic but I’m begining to feel like that, without the books, some of the plots are more and more strange and less logical (ei : That part in ep.6 with Tormund telling Jon “how many men died for Mance’s pride” using that to make Jon bend his… No trouble for me with Jon bending the knee in the end, but Mance did only kill himself refusing. Or do I remember bad?). So many other weird scene too in that season7, like the building of that Sansa-Arya-Bealish thing etc.
      I understand that the show has to take shortcuts but now I’m really looking forward for the vision of GRR.Martin.

      And most of all I did not like that sex scene of Dany and Jon. I think I’m jealous. Joking… or not after all!

      (Please forgive a poor French for possible mistakes I might have made).

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    249. Ten Bears:
      At what point did Arya and Sansa stop catfighting and start cooperating?

      Early. I can’t be sure, but I think in the crypt. The atmosphere is frosty. Arya asks if she has to follow formal address and Sansa idiotically says “Yes.” Sansa gives her a hug, but Arya basically stands there. They’re effectively standing in front of Ned, and he’s such a mediating power. Arya specifically had been told by him to love Sansa, especially in the Winter. By the time they talk a bit about their experiences and Arya says “Our stories aren’t over” it’s warming up. Soon, Arya initiates a hug. This one is mutual. In the Godswood Arya’s dismay at hearing Littlefinger is there must have lead to them talk things over privately (oh to have been a fly on the wall). They must have talked and laid the basic plan within a day or two. For when Arya walks into the Great Hall meeting, she’s wearing her new Stark outfit. Sansa looks at her and lays the groundwork for their first quarrel. And it’s all overhearable. Arya initiated the sparring with Brienne and Sansa AND Littlefinger just happened upon them? I think the girls planned that too. Anyway, by the end of Ep 4, LF knows: 1) Arya hates him (the stare) 2) is very dangerous, and 3) has frightened Sansa as well. The seed of his doom has been planted and the rest, so to speak, is history.

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    250. mau:
      I heard a theory that Tyrion will be raising Cersei’s child and that would be the most powerful ending for his character I could imagine. It’s so perfect, so bittersweet.

      I think Tyrion will be raising a child…Jon and Dany’s baby, while he’s Regent along with Sansa.
      Cersei will have a miscarriage and go into Final Mad Queen mode sometime next season.

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    251. If there is one thing this season has taught me is that the northerners aren’t any better or different than the southerners, at least in the show universe.

      Most of them didn’t answer the Stark’s call, and when Jon goes south they are quick to conspire against him. (The king they actually chose!!!)

      And these are the people Jon is fighting for. These hoes Lords ain’t loyal.

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    252. Sean C.,

      It wasn’t a classic GoT execution in any case. No – “I Sansa Stark, Lady of Winterfell, etc, etc, sentence you to die… Do you have any last words?” She just gave Arya the nod and that was enough! LF never saw it coming 😛

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    253. Erica,

      Sorry, it was actually originally from WorfWWorfington
      I had read it in your post and hit quote and it put you in there, but you had quoted WorfWWorfington.

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    254. Stark Raven’ Rad: Early. I can’t be sure, but I think in the crypt. The atmosphere is frosty. Arya asks if she has to follow formal address and Sansa idiotically says “Yes.” Sansa gives her a hug, but Arya basically stands there. They’re effectively standing in front of Ned, and he’s such a mediating power. Arya specifically had been told by him to love Sansa, especially in the Winter.By the time they talk a bit about their experiences and Arya says “Our stories aren’t over” it’s warming up. Soon, Arya initiates a hug. This one is mutual. In the Godswood Arya’s dismay at hearing Littlefinger is there must have lead to them talk things over privately (oh to have been a fly on the wall).They must have talked and laid the basic plan within a day or two. For when Arya walks into the Great Hall meeting, she’s wearing her new Stark outfit. Sansa looks at her and lays the groundwork for their first quarrel. And it’s all overhearable. Arya initiated the sparring with Brienne and Sansa AND Littlefinger just happened upon them? I think the girls planned that too. Anyway, by the end of Ep 4, LF knows: 1) Arya hates him (the stare) 2) is very dangerous, and 3) has frightened Sansa as well.The seed of his doom has been planted and the rest, so to speak, is history.

      I like your take, but after watching the “court” scene again, I honestly don’t think Arya knew that Sansa was going to turn the tables on Littlefinger. She looked genuinely surprised. Of course, I watched it on my phone the second time. And the first time, I was too busy clapping loudly to notice! 😀

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    255. Erica:

      By the way, and a bit off topic, I just realized that Ned died after 8 episodes in KL. LF held a dagger to throat.

      LF died after 8 episodes in WF with a Stark’s dagger to his throat. Two very different men, put in the other’s environment, and couldn’t survive it.

      Shit. Nevermind. I just realized Ned was in KL for 7 episodes. So, not the symmetry I thought I saw, and certainly not poetic since LF didn’t physically kill Ned.

      I’ll see myself out. Thanks.

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    256. Personally, I liked Sansa handing him the sentince and Arya being the one to carry it out. This is the man who destroyed their family and I think it’s fair to throw away the traditional rules in such a case. The Stark kids basically got together to form a judge, jury, and executioner arrangement. Sansa was the judge, Bran was the jury by deliberating with his visions as evidence, and Arya was the executioner.

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    257. Worth mentioning, everyone is slagging off Arya/Sansa this season but need to consider how themes becomes entwined

      Eg throughout the season mirror Jaimie/Cersei and Euron with Sansa/Arya/Littlefinger, Jon/Dany and Tyrion as well

      A bit like Cersei and Tyrion discussing their father and season 1 onwards issues we have Sansa and Arya doing the same in that final scene, all things considered things go back to family, eg Cersei can’t kill Jaimie anymore than Arya can kill Sansa or vice versa

      One issue though is that Sansa has not been enticed away from family via Littlefinger while Cersei has been enticed away from family by Euron (and the Iron Banks gold)

      Obviously Jon has spent half the season on Dragonstone, and it thematically relates to unearthing his Targaryen heritage, eg Drogon cozying up for a pat was a big turning point. The Dragon Pit scene where Dany is discussing “we” family issues is a discussion of their family and its fall from grace, quite tellingly there are two Targaryens for the two remaining Dragons circling above etc

      Interestingly though, we have to consider what Daario said about “who follows Dany” during the breakup speech. Tyrions advice to leave a spurned sellsword in charge of “Dragons Bay” is actually quite bad advice, but it’s wrapped up as political advice and Daario was right to make inferences

      Think back to how he made Dany re-exile Jorah who he noted was in love with her, he pushed Daario away and notice how he all happy and willing to firstly suggest an absurdly stupid mission and then let Jon go on said dangerous suicide mission but then went to great lengths to talk Dany out of participating after he’s observed Jon seems to be in love with Dany

      So I do reckon Tyrion does have some slightly suspect agenda and so we have to consider the “concerned” look at the Love Boat door with this in mind

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    258. Erica,

      Thank you, Erica, you made a very good point that LF was out of his depth, missing his usual network of spies. The North is, indeed, different.

      LF never really fit. He was tolerated by Vale lords (because of that little snot Robyn Arryn) but he had no ties or proper spy networks in the North. (Maybe northern brothels aren’t up to scrach.)

      So the only play he saw was Sansa, manipulating and dominating her. Natch, he’d taught her too well, to think outside the box, think of every eventuality etc.

      Littlefinger succumbed to that most basic of mistakes: hubris and underestimating his adversaries.

      Aah, I might have some qualms about the “trial”, but nothing was as satisfying as LF’s blood slowly flowing over the Winterfell slabs. Gods, I hate how bloodthirsty I am at times, haha! Oh, someone (I’m sorry, I can’t remember who it was, sorry) pointed out that LF’s last word was “I…” Selfish bastard to the end.

      Jeezus I loved that scene. Starks working together, taking down that despicaple little snake. Apparently secured the Vale’s support in advance. Bronze Yohn Royce denying “protection” and “safe passage” for LF. Ah, hahaha, I laughed. Giggled in a most unedifying, schadenfreude way. Gods, that was good.

      LF on his knees, begging. I never believed a word of it. Neither did Sansa. A nod and Arya makes an end, with LF’s own dagger. Ah. Perfection.

      And then the sisters having a fairly stilted but nice heart-to-heart on the battlements. Sansa’s heart-to-heart with Jon in the same place the previous season was more warm and heart-felt, but even the sisters accepted each other as they are. Referenced dad (Sansa’s quiet whisper was so beautiful.)

      What’s next for the Stark sisters? There’s the problem of loyalty of the Northern lords, especially if they find out Jon Snow isn’t Ned’s son but a secret Targ and a contender for the Iron Throne Jeez, this could be a knotty problem.

      Starks! Stand together. Lone wolf, pack etc.Remember Ned but do better. Sometimes you have to lie. If Ned’s big lie ever becomes public knowledge (I’m not sure it ever will, but maybe family members..? IDK.), …

      This episode was great because it answered a lot of questions… And then, frustratingly, posed just as many.

      We’ll have the Long Night before S8 to discuss. Even get a bit tinfoily. Whatever the fact, but I will financially support this site This is my GoT home, so may brilliant articles but also such great, positive, humorous commenters. I thank you all.

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    259. Ok. I realize what I implied when talking about the North when I spoke of honor, oaths and harsh winters. It came across as I was describing them as “ideal,” “better than,” and “loyal.” What I failed to convey was that they are human, too, and are coming out of a very long summer and stupid mistakes were made by their liege lords. (For Ned, hindsight would have told him confronting Cersei was to underestimate the damage she could do to his family. For Robb, he was stupid for breaking an oath. See what happens?)

      Glover and Royce bitched all the time but remained in check. I stand by that based on what I saw, visually, in the show. What happens next? pfft….who knows.

      I appreciate the challenges you all brought, though. I love hearing/reading different perspectives.

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    260. Sansa is not Ellaria, anymore than she is Arya. Are you implying you expect her to wield a huge fricking sword and lop his head off? If that were to happen you’d be the first one on here questioning the logic.

      Jack Bauer 24: So what? Ellaria offed Doran

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    261. Erica: Shit. Nevermind. I just realized Ned was in KL for 7 episodes. So, not the symmetry I thought I saw, and certainly not poetic since LF didn’t physically kill Ned.

      I’ll see myself out. Thanks.

      No you are right

      The Winterfell Throne room was a mix of the Vale and KL Throne room

      It was the exact same dagger too

      In this case unlike Ned who got tricked by LF throughout KL in the season which led to Neds death and the massacre of the Stark Household guard, we have seen how Sansa has developed political cunning and outwitted LF

      This was as much an inverse trial of Tyrion in the Vale over Jon Arryns death as it was a reversal of Neds betrayal

      There’s a big thematic reason for the Stark Soldiers on one side and the Vale soldiers on the other in place of Gold Cloaks

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    262. I did have concerns about how Arya and Sansa would finsh the season. I give it a thumbs up and sigh of relief. It could have been a real mess. I am just glad it’s over.

      I will take one last opportunity to rant about Sansa/Petyr. At the trial, Sansa lists LF’s crimes. I was nodding along until, “You sold me to the Boltons.” 🙄

      I am always rooting for Sansa and will be watching closely in season 8 to see where the character goes…but

      I recommend that Sansa goes back and closely watches season 5. There is no way in hell that Petyr “sold” her to the Boltons. That was just as much Sansa’s stupid idea as it was Petyr’s. No reason for the show to even mention the marriage (completely consensual vows) with all of LF’s actual crimes or misremember its circumstances.

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    263. Stark Raven’ Rad: Early. I can’t be sure, but I think in the crypt. The atmosphere is frosty. Arya asks if she has to follow formal address and Sansa idiotically says “Yes.” Sansa gives her a hug, but Arya basically stands there. They’re effectively standing in front of Ned, and he’s such a mediating power. Arya specifically had been told by him to love Sansa, especially in the Winter.By the time they talk a bit about their experiences and Arya says “Our stories aren’t over” it’s warming up. Soon, Arya initiates a hug. This one is mutual. In the Godswood Arya’s dismay at hearing Littlefinger is there must have lead to them talk things over privately (oh to have been a fly on the wall).They must have talked and laid the basic plan within a day or two. For when Arya walks into the Great Hall meeting, she’s wearing her new Stark outfit. Sansa looks at her and lays the groundwork for their first quarrel. And it’s all overhearable. Arya initiated the sparring with Brienne and Sansa AND Littlefinger just happened upon them? I think the girls planned that too. Anyway, by the end of Ep 4, LF knows: 1) Arya hates him (the stare) 2) is very dangerous, and 3) has frightened Sansa as well.The seed of his doom has been planted and the rest, so to speak, is history.

      Still doesn’t explain why she had that conversation with LF about being upset that Jon didn’t seek her counsel about pledging to Dany. By that point she had to have already decided to have him executed.

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    264. At least Little Finger got a proper framing and a bit of an elaborated demise.
      Unlike the Bums Rush given Roose Bolton, which I still consider peculiar.
      Or when the writers were really impatient with Doran Martell , that was like get-the-hell-out-of-the-story! Yesterday!!

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    265. Ghost’s Lunch:

      Interestingly though, we have to consider what Daario said about “who follows Dany” during the breakup speech. Tyrions advice to leave a spurned sellsword in charge of “Dragons Bay” is actually quite bad advice, but it’s wrapped up as political advice and Daario was right to make inferences

      Think back to how he made Dany re-exile Jorah who he noted was in love with her, he pushed Daario away and notice how he all happy and willing to firstly suggest an absurdly stupid mission and then let Jon go on said dangerous suicide mission but then went to great lengths to talk Dany out of participating after he’s observed Jon seems to be in love with Dany

      So I do reckon Tyrion does have some slightly suspect agenda and so we have to consider the “concerned” look at the Love Boat door with this in mind

      THAT is definitely something to consider!

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    266. Boojam,

      Barristan😭too. He knew Rhaegar better than anyone alive. He should have been able to meet Jon and return to Westeros with Daenerys after the rude ass sendoff he got from Joffrey.

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    267. talvikorppi:
      Erica,

      Thank you, Erica, you made a very good point that LF was out of his depth, missing his usual network of spies. The North is, indeed, different.

      LF never really fit. He was tolerated by Vale lords (because of that little snot Robyn Arryn) but he had no ties or proper spy networks in the North. (Maybe northern brothels aren’t up to scrach.)

      So the only play he saw was Sansa, manipulating and dominating her. Natch, he’d taught her too well, to think outside the box, think of every eventuality etc.

      Littlefinger succumbed to that most basic of mistakes: hubris and underestimating his adversaries.

      Aah, I might have some qualms about the “trial”, but nothing was as satisfying as LF’s blood slowly flowing over the Winterfell slabs. Gods, I hate how bloodthirsty I am at times, haha! Oh, someone (I’m sorry, I can’t remember who it was, sorry) pointed out that LF’s last word was “I…” Selfish bastard to the end.

      Jeezus I loved that scene. Starks working together, taking down that despicaple little snake. Apparently secured the Vale’s support in advance. Bronze Yohn Royce denying “protection” and “safe passage” for LF. Ah, hahaha, I laughed. Giggled in a most unedifying, schadenfreude way. Gods, that was good.

      LF on his knees, begging. I never believed a word of it. Neither did Sansa. A nod and Arya makes an end, with LF’s own dagger. Ah. Perfection.

      And then the sisters having a fairly stilted but nice heart-to-heart on the battlements. Sansa’s heart-to-heart with Jon in the same place the previous season was more warm and heart-felt, but even the sisters accepted each other as they are. Referenced dad (Sansa’s quiet whisper was so beautiful.)

      What’s next for the Stark sisters? There’s the problem of loyalty of the Northern lords, especially if they find out Jon Snow isn’t Ned’s son but a secret Targ and a contender for the Iron Throne Jeez, this could be a knotty problem.

      Starks! Stand together. Lone wolf, pack etc.Remember Ned but do better. Sometimes you have to lie. If Ned’s big lie ever becomes public knowledge (I’m not sure it ever will, but maybe family members..? IDK.), …

      This episode was great because it answered a lot of questions… And then, frustratingly, posed just as many.

      We’ll have the Long Night before S8 to discuss. Even get a bit tinfoily. Whatever the fact, but I will financially support this site This is my GoT home, so may brilliant articles but also such great, positive, humorous commenters. I thank you all.

      And I thank you, too.

        Quote  Reply

    268. Let us remember the rest of Ned’s “swing the sword” quote.

      “If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. If you can’t do that, then maybe he doesn’t deserve to die.”

      Sansa may not have swung the knife, but I don’t think you can argue she didn’t look into LF’s eyes and hear his words.

      Besides, this is the woman who sicced ravenous dogs on Ramsay. Are we going to argue she doesn’t have the balls to order an execution?

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    269. talvikorppi,

      I think the North will be OK with Jon, they’ll remember how he’s still put himself up to oust the Boltons, like how the Wildlings remember he died for them etc

      There’s a line very early in AGoT about Jon observing to Arya over the training yard about how “Joffrey has lifted his Mothers House to the same status as his fathers” when noting the dual Lannister/Baratheon coat of arms

      And so I have always expected Jon in the books at least in due course will adopt dual Stark/Targaryen coat of arms, we had his Stark ascension arc last season and this season we had his Targaryen ascension arc

      This makes sense as he is a synthesis character, a blend of Free Folk and Nights Watch, but also Mel/Val and Ice/Fire and so Stark/Targaryen makes sense. I reckon they have touched on this in his talk with Theon, Jon has to choose between Stark/Targaryen anymore than Theon had or has to choose between Greyjoy and Stark

      Jon of course will have a Dire Wolf and a Dragon by his side too once he bonds with Rhaegal!

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    270. Ghost’s Lunch: No you are right

      The Winterfell Throne room was a mix of the Vale and KL Throne room

      It was the exact same dagger too

      In this case unlike Ned who got tricked by LF throughout KL in the season which led to Neds death and the massacre of the Stark Household guard, we have seen how Sansa has developed political cunning and outwitted LF

      This was as much an inverse trial of Tyrion in the Vale over Jon Arryns death as it was a reversal of Neds betrayal

      There’s a big thematic reason for the Stark Soldiers on one side and the Vale soldiers on the other in place of Gold Cloaks

      I think you just saved my ass. Thank you!
      So yeah! What Ghost’s Lunch said!

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    271. Firstofhername:
      MakeThemBurn,

      That’s the first time I’ve heard someone other than me say time loop, it’s all a time loop, bran is the night king and it goes from there

      Yeah, it’s kinda obvious at this point that the time loop is what the story centers around. The same things keep happening over and over again. GRRM relies on his experience with science fiction stories.

      As for Dany’s end, the Yi Ti explanation for the Long Night was for me the final confirmation about how her story ends. Her entire story arc started with her being married of to a scary, undefeated barbarian. After that her character has been about protecting children (slaves) and vowing to make their enemies die screaming. She’s Maiden-made-of-light to the T. After becoming the Night’s Queen she will forever protect her children. That’s how she is going to “break the wheel”. Until, of course, the Long Night becomes a myth yet again and everything we’ve seen in this story gets repeated.

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    272. Jack Bauer 24,

      Easy. She needed to keep him happy a little longer so he didn’t suspect he was in trouble.

      As for Ellaria killing Doran, are you seriously comparing a woman sneak-attacking a man in a wheelchair to a planned-out execution? Seriously? Really? Honestly?

      Dude…

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    273. No conversation about Aemon between Aegon/Dany is a bad missed opportunity. Still scratching my head at that one.

      And no talk of Sam between Aegon/Jorah is just as baffling

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    274. spaewife,

      Yeah, behavioral ecology & evolution is fascinating. Of course, GoT is (in a lot of ways) one big sociobiological thought exercise: all of the big houses are obsessed with the immorality of their family line! But, then: that is a lot like real humans.

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    275. Tycho Nestoris:
      Boojam,

      Barristantoo. He knew Rhaegar better than anyone alive. He should have been able to meet Jon and return to Westeros with Daenerys after the rude ass sendoff he got from Joffrey.

      Since you mention Barristan, whom I love/loved….what always bothered me in both the books and the show was Dany’s intellectual lack of curiosity about him and of Westeros in general. But to keep the focus on Barristan: he was a wealth of knowledge at her disposal and barely anything came of it. Feasts were better described in the books than anything book Dany seems to glean from Barristan regarding Rhaegar/Westeros. I know he was mentioned, perhaps just not enough for me and it seemed odd that for someone whose ultimate goal was to return “home” and rule, she knew so little of that home/history.

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    276. Also really weird Dany said my “dragon died”. She couldn’t even call him by name? No love for Viserion?

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    277. Ghost’s Lunch,

      One has to understand it is a case of folding season 1 back in on itself,

      That is brilliant! It’s only structure, but it makes sense. Equally, one has to understand that they’re manipulating LF, using is favourite method to overthrow him before he can do more damage. Well done!

      talvikorppi,

      I really like your theories. Take a look at what I proposed to Ten Bears about the timing of the inception of the sisters’ plan. I think everything we see them do and say after they wheel Bran through the courtyard is part of the plan. An exception may be Arya’s anecdote about Ned. She sounds so mellow towards SAnsa because they both loved Ned that she can’t help but mention it. Then. suddenly she goes back to their ‘script’ by using it to segue to her accusation against Sansa re: the letter. Also, I think everything they say is meant to be detected by LF, which is why the all-important dagger exchange is silent. Why all this? If they’re going to make LF think he’s in control due to Sansa’s fear of Arya, their faux animosity corroborates everything Sansa tells him. He’s more likely to believe her and to incriminate himself, which is part of what they’re aiming for.

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    278. Jack Bauer 24:
      No conversation about Aemon between Aegon/Dany is a bad missed opportunity. Still scratching my head at that one.

      And no talk of Sam between Aegon/Jorah is just as baffling

      That is all stuff that can be included on the list of things they could have added if they’d gone with a regular length season. It appears they didn’t find it necessary. It would get a little excessive if they had several conversations between characters about events that we watched seasons ago. I did want some of them, specifically between the Fellowship about Arya, but I can see how it would get old if they did it every time two characters with a tie came together.

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    279. I don’t think Sansa was setting up LF all season. I think she was still under his influence. Arya & Bran (cold hug for her) were giving Sansa tough love all season. If you go back & rewatch the scenes, the clues are there.

      Arya calls out Sansa for making decisions out of fear… That will lead you to betray those closest to you. Arya’s last test/clue to Sansa was she gave her the dagger. It was to point her into the direction of her failure, her potential betrayal… LF.

      Note: Bran gave the dagger to Arya because she’s the only Stark around capable of carrying out the sentence. Arya passed it to Sansa as a “you make the call”.

      Sansa was still conflicted until LF played his last game trying to get Sansa to see Arya as taking her spot as “Lady of Winterfell”. She realized that’s the same shit she was quietly thinking about doing to Jon…

      She finally figured it out. Note when she sent for Arya it was actually Sansa who was on trial there. Watch it again. Arya says “so you want to do this now?” It was her final test. Then the next line was what the test was… She said something about standing with & defending her family no matter what…

      All the charges she called LF out for, she already knew except for the betrayal of Ned. Lysa admitted everything before the moon door.

      Sansa had been parading the man who betrayed her father around Winterfell because she was “fearful” of losing the Vale. Fuck the Vale. Get that snake out of here. She finally figured it out with help from Arya & Bran.

      And finally, Arya threw her sister a peace offering by saying she never could have survived what Sansa did & Sansa admitted the truth. Yes she would have… Damn right she would have. Sansa was always the weak link. But the Starks got her mind right & she’s officially back with the pack now. Plus Sansa herself admitted that she was a slow learner. So she hadn’t been plotting against LF. Her family helped her open her eyes.

      Also note Arya never apologized for her intimidation/scare tactics. Sansa even showed her weakness when she said in a way he (LF) did love her. And Arya wouldn’t even acknowledge that crap. She simply reassured Sansa she did the right thing. Sansa got the tough love she needed and I hope they drop the passive aggressive Sansa disloyalty & make her fully Team Stark now. No fake drama about Jon bending the knee… Dany is coming North & about to risk her life for the North. Which is more of a sacrifice than Sansa has ever personally made for the North. So please D&D don’t go there. But if so, then go full on dark Sansa & drop the fearful, pawn Sansa. Nobody but her blind fans are buying that crap.

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    280. Jack Bauer 24: Also really weird Dany said my “dragon died”. She couldn’t even call him by name? No love for Viserion?

      The audience knows who “my dragon” is. The name Viserion doesn’t mean much to them.

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    281. Tycho Nestoris:
      Boojam,

      Barristan😭too. He knew Rhaegar better than anyone alive. He should have been able to meet Jon and return to Westeros with Daenerys after the rude ass sendoff he got from Joffrey.

      Apparently Ian McElhinney , as far as I can tell, was the one who set up the ‘phone call’ as a standard.
      From his shooting schedule he figured out something was happening. I think it was he who called them. He took issue with a letter to D&D about the story. He did say , and I don’t know if they modified it in season 4, his exit was set up ok. I notice he is still a commentator about the show , around the edges, because he is a book fan.
      He seems to have read the excerpts from Winds of Winter.

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    282. Jack Bauer 24:
      Also really weird Dany said my “dragon died”. She couldn’t even call him by name? No love for Viserion?

      I’m just glad she didn’t say “my child died,” “one of my children died.” That was bordering on the old/broken record/creep full tilt meter spectrum.

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    283. WorfWWorfington: Sansa may not have swung the knife, but I don’t think you can argue she didn’t look into LF’s eyes and hear his words.

      Ah, well, the entire line is “Let he who passes judgement swing the sword; however, if using a knife instead, then let the younger sister use it.” Lyanna had that part added.

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    284. Jack Bauer 24: Still doesn’t explain why she had that conversation with LF about being upset that Jon didn’t seek her counsel about pledging to Dany. By that point she had to have already decided to have him executed.

      Could be a trick about making him think he is her confidante

      Sansa can understand it on two fronts, eg firstly alliance with Dany is absolutely necassary against WW’s, something Bran would agree with given he understands NK perhaps more than anyone

      Understand her as a pseudo disciple of Cersei and getting into her mind as much as Sansa has gotten into Littlefingers, there are two “Southron Queens” battling it out for the KL Iron Throne and it is delicately poised, Cersei very deliberately brought up Jon giving his word as to ensure and lock him into neutrality just as she neutralised the Reach via talking directly to their Lords as well as Dorne.

      Cersei actually storms off after hearing Jon affirm he has pledged to Daenarys even after the Wight, why? Because Cersei knows the North (and Vale/RL) hold something of a balance of power and can tip the balance in favour of either Queen

      Sansa should understand this dynamic as well, we see in E1 her mind is on southward events and she mentions Cersei won’t rest until they are destroyed and a substitute House in place, the Boltons before and more recently having the Tarly’s replace the Tyrells, on the other hand despite more recent history with the Mad King specifically the history is the Starks were allowed to retain power by the Targaryens after bending the knee, something Dany raises instantly the moment Jon arrives so there is some loose hope there. Of course she mentions overtures with both requires an emissary

      So, Sansa (as Cersei in reverse) knows that in order to preserve their position either as Lords or as Vassal Princes ala the historic Dorne deal then an alliance with one of the Queens is ultimately necassary as neutrality isn’t really an option and Littlefinger actually confirms it makes political sense.

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    285. Jack Bauer 24:
      No conversation about Aemon between Aegon/Dany is a bad missed opportunity. Still scratching my head at that one.

      And no talk of Sam between Aegon/Jorah is just as baffling

      The Stark survivors don’t seem to care about Rickon.

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    286. Jack Bauer 24:
      Also really weird Dany said my “dragon died”. She couldn’t even call him by name? No love for Viserion?

      That’s a bit nitpicky. Saying it that way is similar to if she were talking about a child and said son/daughter. There would be nothing wrong with that. Tyrion said, “the last time I was here I killed my Father,” and Davos said, “… you killed my son…” Issues with those?

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    287. Aegon the Icedragon,

      Agree with most of this, except I’m not as hard on Sansa. One quibble:

      No, Arya would not have survived what Sansa went through. Arya would have pushed Joffrey off that catwalk in Season 1. And been killed a few minutes later. Or she would have tried to kill Joffrey later, and been killed.

      I still view it as Sansa played along with Littlefinger by telling him some truths — Jon pisses her off; Arya is weird; the Northern lords are dicks — and keeping him comfortable.

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    288. Wimsey,

      “And if using ravenous, starving dogs, then get some fucking therapy. Jesus.”

      I wish they were still around. I realize they were probably put down, but it would be bad-ass if Sansa walked around with Ramsay’s dogs …

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    289. Jack Bauer 24: Another head scratcher. Rickon deserved better.

      Rickon was not a protagonist, and thus only a prop in the story for other characters. His death was just another issue for them.

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    290. Wimsey: Ah, well, the entire line is “Let he who passes judgement swing the sword; however, if using a knife instead, then let the younger sister use it.”Lyanna had that part added.

      Eww. That had me imagining Sansa trying to swing a sword to behead Littlefinger. That would have been sloppier than Theon going at Rodrik’s neck. 🙁

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    291. Clob: That’s a bit nitpicky.Saying it that way is similar to if she were talking about a child and said son/daughter.There would be nothing wrong with that.Tyrion said, “the last time I was here I killed my Father,” and Davos said, “… you killed my son…”Issues with those?

      Would have been more personal. I didn’t like it.

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    292. And how awkward is it that the army of the dead is walking at a snails pace and NK is flying at super speed on Viserion?

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    293. Bunny Without Banners,

      Watch the scene again. Arya clearly knew everything. She wasn’t surprised about anything. Arya was actually putting Sansa & her family loyalties on trial there. Arya looked directly at LF & asked Sansa if she was sure she wanted to do this now? In other words are you sure you want to prove your loyalty here & now. Sansa says yes. It’s about honor for her family.

      Arya questions her. Basically asking what this was all about. Sansa says that she’s going to honor & defend her family no matter what (paraphrasing). Arya basically gives Sansa the approval to proceed with the charges. Then she calls out Littlefinger. Then Arya confirms to LF that she & Bran had FINALLY removed Sansa from his clutches when she says “my sister asked you a question”…

      Littlefinger blew it when he walked Sansa through the process of Arya killing her & taking her place as “Lady of Winterfell”… She realized those were the thoughts she was having about Jon… She finally chose her family over her own selfish desires. Sansa is officially team Stark again. Hell maybe for the first time ever.

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    294. Aegon the Icedragon,

      Interesting perspective, if there was any risk of Arya really being on trial though I don’t think the Vale soldiers/Lords would have been there,

      It would have been Starks only and Sansa would know that Bran would countermand any order to execute Arya and Stark soldiers would honour that above any of her directives

      The Vale soldiers were very much there and on one side of the room as this was about avenging Jon Arryns death in E1 (and later Lysa) as much as Neds betrayal

      Think we are at the point where it is living vs the Night King and invading Wight Army now and all the squabbling is put aside, eg between Starks as well as Targaryens, eg I don’t expect there to be inter-familial power struggles between Bran and Sansa or Dany and Jon despite some “technical issues” and the whole fight will fall in behind Bran, Jon and Dany (notice Jon in the synthesis Ice/Fire role)

      Only inter-living dynamics is the intri