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Tonight Game of Thrones pulled no punches, revealing the mystery behind the gentle giant Hodor and the not-so-gentle White Walkers. How did it all shake out? Fasten your seatbelts, Thrones fans, it’s going to be a bumpy night! (And by that, I mean your heart will be ripped from your chest. Possibly literally. You never know.)
Spoiler Note: This post is for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section will contain spoilers from the novels! Because no, we are not all Unsullied now. If you haven’t read the books yet, please check out our non-book-reader recap. Thanks!
Have you recovered sufficiently from that all-time classic episode finish? Done freaking out over whether it’ll play out that way in the books? Whether you are or not, it’s time to go back through “The Door,” and start at the beginning. Let’s see what everyone else was up to this week in Westeros and beyond.
At the Wall, Sansa is plying her needle (I like to think of it as her reclaiming one of her lady weapons) and receives word that Littlefinger is near and would like a meeting.
First things first- Littlefinger does not have a jetpack. What he does have is a very fast ship making express, nonstop trips to wherever he likes, unlike poor Sam and Gilly who are probably stopping in every port from the Wall to Oldtown.
Now, last week was an incredible high, with the reunion of two Starks, Sansa and Jon. This week there was bound to be a comedown, and there is one as the reality of the future sets in. Wary as she should be, Sansa brings Brienne with her to the meeting with Littlefinger in Mole’s Town, and doesn’t give an inch to the man who handed her over to Ramsay Bolton.
I’m reminded of a famous Sansa quote- of how her skin has turned from “porcelain, to ivory, to steel.” This is who Sansa is now: steel. Facing down Littlefinger, she doesn’t allow him to slither away from her questioning about the abuse she suffered. Still, Littlefinger does offer up useful information- Sansa’s great uncle Brynden “The Blackfish” Tully has retaken Riverrun and something of an army. (Yes! Siege of Riverrun, here we come!) He also slips one of his sneaky-bastard ideas into her head, planting the concern that Jon’s army is not her own. And dammit, he’s not wrong.
It’s understandable that a traumatized Sansa wouldn’t truly trust anyone at this point, except perhaps Brienne, the woman who has pledged herself to her completely and has no potentially conflicting self-interest. She’s learned to hold her cards closer to her chest- perhaps one of the lessons she did pick up from Littlefinger, at a steep price, and that she may ultimately use in tearing him down, when that day comes. I certainly hope so. We know that she can trust Jon, but who can blame Sansa for wanting to have an army that is loyal to her?
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Later, Sansa meets with Jon and Davos, and assesses the Northern families who might support them against the Boltons. Sansa knows the North, but Davos knows men. Jon suggests gathering the smaller houses of the North to form one army to match the larger one of their opponent. Sansa brings up the Tully army that Blackfish now has at Riverrun, but lies about how she learned the information.
Sansa decides to send Brienne to Riverrun to recruit the Tullys to their cause. Brienne doesn’t like leaving her lady alone. Sansa says she trusts Jon- but can’t explain why she lied about Riverrun. Perhaps lingering guilt is why, along with the wolf-sigiled dress she made for herself, Sansa fashions a Ned Starkish cloak for Jon.
The group departs the Wall, heading out to recruit more families to their cause.
“That wildling with the beard…” If you keep eyeballing Brienne that way, Tormund, I’m pretty sure you’re going to lose a few body parts you’d really miss. (Admittedly, I laughed my ass off.)
Oh, and Dolorous Edd is the Lord Commander whether he wants to admit it or not. You’re stuck with that damn Wall, Edd.
“Does death only come for the wicked and leave the decent behind?”
Across the sea in Braavos, Arya finishes another bout of grim training with the Waif and is given a new opportunity by Jaqen. Before getting around to sharing the assignment (bumping off an actress), the Faceless Man shares the background of the House of Black and White, and the people who founded it. The Faceless Men were once slaves who prayed to the Many-Faced God, and were rewarded, able to share the gift, eventually killing all the overseers and masters. As a reader of ASOIAF, I found the slight divergence interesting, as the version from the novels is that the first Faceless Men brought the gift of death to the slaves who were suffering. It wasn’t the masters’ turn until later. Death was a gift to relieve pain, not just retribution. This streamlined version of the story dovetails with the show’s depiction of Daenerys freeing the slaves.
Now, the upside of this new job assignment is that we finally get much-needed levity in Arya’s storyline. She finds her target performing at a charmingly crude theater. Richard E. Grant is obscenely funny as the theater troupe’s leading man, and Essie Davis as Lady Crane, the assassination target, joins him in the political pantomime.
The troupe plays out a grotesque version of the events in King’s Landing, from Robert’s death to Ned’s execution, reminding Arya again of who she is. She’s certainly not “No One” when she sees the play version of her sister Sansa being stripped, and her father killed, standing in the crowd as she did that day in “Baelor.” After the performance, Arya determines how she’ll kill the actress, and sees she is simply a normal, seemingly kind enough woman. Jaqen again reminds her of her obligation to serve.
The scene serves the dual purpose of bringing Arya back to herself fully, and demonstrating that the good are chosen for death as easily as the wicked. As we’ll see later in the episode, the greatest of innocents can suffer and fall too.
Oh and Benioff and Weiss? “I feel the winds of winter as they lick across the land!” Yeah, we see you.
Will Arya go through with poisoning the actress? Personally I don’t think so. At this rate, she’s just as likely to poison the other actress who hired the Faceless Men. And her spats with the Waif are far too pointed to not reach a fever pitch very soon, and blood will be spilled.
In the Iron Islands, the time has come for the Kingsmoot, when the Ironborn choose their king- or queen. It seems as though Yara has a clear path to the throne, with Theon throwing his support behind her. But we knew it wouldn’t be that easy, not with Euron Greyjoy around.
Yara stakes her claim, speaking well, and Theon refuses to be considered as a candidate, loyally speaking out for his sister as the rightful ruler. Though reluctant to embrace a woman as leader, things are going her way- until Euron struts to the forefront.
Right off, I have to say- the resemblance between Pilou Asbæk and Alfie Allen is uncanny. They really do look like family, so spot-on casting.
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The long-missing Greyjoy points out Theon’s shortcomings and knocks Yara’s claim to the Iron Islands throne. He doesn’t even try to deny Yara’s accusation about Balon’s death, and the pirates don’t mind too much after he talks his way out of it. (Some readers will hate that but I don’t- I’ve always found the Ironborn morally reprehensible. It’s one of their charms.) For his platform, Euron proposes a bold plan- to build the Iron Fleet and to bring it to the dragon queen, and take the Seven Kingdoms together. He wasn’t born king, but he intends to take it the Ironborn way, paying the iron price. He has the crowd, and he has the throne.
In a beautifully handled sequence, Euron is baptized by Aeron Greyjoy as Yara, Theon and their men flee from Pyke with the best ships. After the new king of the Iron Islands has proved his godliness by rising from drowning, the driftwood-crowned Euron chases after his brother’s children, only to find them gone. Euron commands his subjects to make more, to make good on his promises.
The Kingsmoot scene was condensed a fair amount compared to A Feast for Crows‘ version but that’s understandable because even cut down, it’s still a long and complex scene. I do have a bone to pick here and it’s that, I doubt any show-only watcher has a clue who that white-haired man is, or that he’s supposed to be related to the Greyjoys. He’s Aeron Greyjoy officially, but they don’t have him acting like it. He could be any Drowned Priest. It’s very odd.
And hey new rule, Game of Thrones– if we have to listen to some guy brag about his big cock, you have to show it. Or shut up.
Euron’s moment appropriately brings us to the woman he’s sworn to find- Daenerys. Above Vaes Dothrak, she stands with Daario and Jorah, wondering what to do with the knight she has been forced to exile twice.
This time Jorah embraces exile, and reveals his affliction- the greyscale crawling up to his elbow. Acknowledging his love for Daenerys, the knight turns away from her, not wanting to expose her to the illness. A teary Dany reminds him of his vows to her, and commands him to find a cure and heal himself, and return to her. She needs him by her side when she returns to Westeros.
They part ways, with Dany riding out of Vaes Dothrak with her new khalasar and Jorah heading the other way once again.
I straight-up cried during this scene. Some of Emilia’s best work, I honestly think so. No fire and blood, just simple affection and need.
Back in Meereen, the queen’s council meet to discuss the tentative peace achieved by Tyrion’s Meereenese Compromise. While the treaty is effective for the moment, Tyrion knows it needs shoring up with other voices that the people listen to- in this case, we learn, the Red followers of R’hllor. (Side note, I dig the callback to Varys’ season 5 line, “Who said anything about him?”)
In the pyramid, Tyrion and magic-hating Varys meet with the Red high priestess Kinvara, who surprisingly agrees to help out right away. She then sets about spooking Tyrion and Varys with her knowledge of them- has she seen their past in the flames, the horrible childhood trauma that haunts Varys?
I have to ask: Tyrion, is throwing in with religion a good idea? Let’s ask Cersei how that worked out. Fanaticism and logical progress do not go hand in hand.
I did enjoy Varys being horrified and frightened by Kinvara’s power to see into his past. It was yet another reminder that in this world, magic is everywhere…and no kidding, it’s actually fucking terrifying.
The real star storyline of tonight’s episode was clearly beyond the Wall. In the official episode synopsis, it said, “Bran learns a great deal” and I have to give that description the Understatement of the Year Award.
In his first vision, Bran dips into the long-ago past, seeing the Children of the Forest at the same tree and ring of stones where they live now, only thriving and green with summer. He and the Three-Eyed Raven witness the playful Children gathering, and then shockingly approaching a human man tied to a tree. Plunging a magic knife into his heart, his eyes turn icy blue, and we realize we’re seeing the creation of the Night’s King, the first of the White Walkers.
In present time, Leaf explains they were at war, and created the first White Walker to defend themselves from the enemy- Man.
I see now. The White Walkers are the nuclear weapons the Children lost control of, and now they’re marching south to annihilate everyone. Because you can’t control a weapon of that magnitude, and the Children have paid for it dearly.
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Later, while the Three-Eyed Raven sleeps, Bran enters a vision on his own, returning to the same stones and tree outside, now frozen over with winter ice. From the overhead view, we see that the black stones and the tree covered in snow form a particular design. The spiral is identical to the pattern of body parts discovered by the wildlings in season 3. “Always the artists,” Mance Rayder observed then.
Sinking into the vision and turning around, Bran finds a wight army, still and waiting to be commanded.
In a sequence worthy of any horror movie, Bran moves between the corpses. On the other side of the crowd, he finds White Walkers, including the Night’s King…who looks down and sees him.
The wights now see him too, turning around to face Bran. He spins around, and as he spins back, we see the Night’s King behind him. The King reaches out and grabs Bran, leaving an icy mark on his arm, even as Bran is yanked from the vision.
The Three-Eyed Raven warns Bran that the Night’s King can now enter the cave, the protection has been lost because of the mark, and that ready or not, it’s time for Bran to become him- the Three-Eyed Raven.
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With Hodor, Meera makes preparations to head out now that the cave has been compromised by Bran’s actions. Spotting their cold breath, she realizes what must be happening and runs outside to see the wight army has arrived. The Night’s King, the White Walkers and all the wights- they’re right outside the cave.
They attack, with the Children of the Forest fighting them off as Meera tries to wake Bran up. Unfortunately, he and the Three-Eyed Raven are stuck inside another warm vision of Winterfell, where the child Ned is saying goodbye to Benjen. Little Ned is off to the Vale.
The Children are throwing fire and fighting but the White Walkers are undeterred, even as the wights are shattering and blowing up around them. The Night’s King parts the fire and the White Walkers stroll on through. The wights swarm over the cave’s hill.
In the vision, Bran watches Rickard Stark say goodbye to Ned, as the wights break into the cave and Meera fights for her life. The direwolf Summer joins the fray, tearing up wights as the Children of the Forest fight. Meera pleads for Bran to wake up, because they need his help with Hodor who is terrified and can’t even move. Meera’s voice is beginning to seep into Bran’s vision, but he’s unable to pull away. He can only hear her voice calling for him, talking about Hodor. He zeroes in on young Hodor in his vision, the stableboy Wyllis. And then Hodor’s eyes go white and Hodor rises.
The White Walkers enter the underground caves, killing a Child. Continuing to be utterly boss, Meera kills a White Walker with a dragonglass spear. Summer holds off the wights and gives his life doing it, as Meera gets Bran and Hodor out of the central cave area finally. As far as metaphors go, this wasn’t subtle, and it was twofold. Bran has to become the Three-Eyed Raven now- part of that will involve letting go of his Stark nature and his corporeal attachments. Summer’s death also means simply, “Summer’s over, Winter is here, and my god is it ever.”
The Night’s King enters and find the Three-Eyed Raven still in his tree, still inside the vision. He raises his long blade even as the Raven warns Bran that “The time has come.” The blade falls and the Three-Eyed Raven disintegrates in the vision, killed by the Night’s King.
Meera, Hodor and Leaf push Bran down the tunnel, chased by wights but Leaf stops, deciding to hold them off as the others escape. She readies her fireball like a grenade, lets the crowd of wights focus on and swarm over her, and blows them up. (Made me think of Toni in Red Dawn, but I digress.)
Hodor, Meera, and Bran are the only ones, and they’re almost out, pushing through the door. Hodor gets them out, and is able to close the door behind them as Meera drags Bran away. The wights are pushing to get free, but the door holds them in. As Meera drags Bran away, she yells “Hold the Door!” and Bran hears it in his vision, as he stares at young Hodor.
“Hold the Door!” she screams again.
Young Wyllis convulses on the ground, caught in a seizure, yelling “Hold the door!” Over and over, over and over, until the words start to run together.
Hodor remains at the door, keeping it closed even as the wights start to bash through, stabbing and cutting and ripping at him. He bleeds and cries out, but he holds the door as Meera takes Bran away.
The words blur.
“Hodor.”
Meera and Bran have escaped, but Hodor, the most decent of them all, has fallen.
Time is a loop, a closed one at that. Bran created Hodor, warped him to his purpose in a terrible accident that led back to the moment of his creation. The ramifications of this demonstration of Bran’s gifts are far-reaching and bring a host of crackpot theories into the realm of the possible.
Except for that one about him driving King Aerys mad. C’mon now.
But this is an episode we’ll be chewing on for ages, it’s safe to say.
Last thought: are we going to see wight-Hodor? Probably not, but it would be undeniably cool and heartbreaking, all at once.
Hold the door.
Sniff.
Hod….. I can’t do it guys. I’m dead inside.
Hellos fellow Watchers.
I didn’t see the leaked version of tonight’s episode. I waited till 9pm, tuned in and even watched the rerun.
There are a shitload of posts here so I’m just going to point out what stood out for me:
* Arya is my favorite character; hands down. BUT her storyline is going too slow. Also, she needs to kill the Waif like yesterday.
* I know Tyrion is supposed to be super smart but I think eeeeeeeevery thing he’s doing will come to bite him in his little drunk ass. That red priestess seemed cray – cray (aren’t they all?)
* The Greyjoys. Keep it up. Don’t Dorne them.
* Not going into the Sansa plot. People are way too sensitive about her BUT I will say; don’t lie to your brother. Bad move Honey.
* Meera needs to be right up there with Arya and Daenerys. She’s a kick ass woman like the best of them.
* Kudos to the Director and Writer. This is big screen level here people. The ending was superb. That being said? When the show ends regardless of the outcome, Hodor should be the most important character. I’ll even throw a hashtag and say he’s the #GOAT of #GoT. He was never dumb, he knew how he was going to die and he still went with the flow.
DOWN POINTS: Summer. The producers are clearly pro-dragons. By now I don’t want Nymeria to appear… who am I kidding. Yes I do, specially know that Brienne is going to the Riverlands. And it wouldn’t hurt if Gendry was thrown into the mix (I know, I know, wishful thinking)
And finally QUESTION:
Was the actor who got stabbed the same one who plays the Night King? If so; who was that guy? Some random schmuck who was walking around the woods or are we going again with the Stark / Brother of the Night’s Watch theory?
Thanks to anyone who replies back. If not? Thanks Watchers on the Wall for letting me vent.
I’ma gonna cry for Hodor now…
Hold the door…. ;_;
I am ded.
Where’s Lancel? Drogon? Bronn?
No more Hodoring for me… just doesn’t feel the same… that being said.. this should be a wake up call to anyone who watched the show BEFORE they were suppose to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/19/leaked-game-of-thrones-hbo_n_7096000.html
I’m with HBO on this one.. they have spent WAAAAAAAAAY to much time and effort on this series for people to just pirate and download the show like they did.
SMH… does anyone have any ethics anymore? Im not without SIN but I’m glad I did the right thing and wait!
We all are extremely for sad for Summer being gone but hey guys I think Summer will die in the books too. Its asoiaf. Don’t blame D&D for that or their CGI budget.
H..ho…h…
Nope I can’t do it.
The Hound, Gendry…. 😉
It’s sad to see Summer die but dragons are far more useful against Walkers. Ghost might be next in episode 9. Nymeria doubt she’ll ever make it to the show unless they want to spend huge money on her pack with CGI and that is unlikely.
It hurts. It really hurts.
Summer is dead, and Winter is here. The Wall is next for the Night’s King.
Hold the Door <3
Sniffles to summer and hodor?
On the plus side my boy Lord Commander Edd Tollett! ??
‘…standing in the crowd as she did that day in “Baelor.” ‘
Wow, I was so caught up in the play-within-the-play, and how very Pyramus and Thisbe-esque the dialoge was, I totally missed that!!! I mean, obviously, I got the whole Arya watching what happened to her family, and I thought Maise, as usual, handled it brilliantly, but standing in the crowd just as she did in Baelor had escaped me.
Back to the Pyramus and Thisbe-esque dialogue, if only they could have worked in something about the Wall and had someone play Wall… 🙂
Geralt of Rivia,
But an army of wolves could help the Starks. Ramsay’s hounds aren’t that good hehe
HODOR
I hope he’s in a place with all the eggs, bacon & blood sausage he could ever desire:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/television/2014/04/game_of_thrones_deaths_mourn_dead_characters_at_their_virtual_graveyard.html
Hodor 🙁
Ice Spider,
That’s from last year, by the way.
Yes that was Vladimir Furdik as shirtless guy on tree. He’s the Night’s King now. Not sure they’re going to delve into more back story on the NK though that would be cool.
Jack Bauer 24,
We still have half a season, you know?
I love the speed at which this season is moving.
Geralt of Rivia,
Most fans’ affinity and love for the wolves have nothing to do with their usefulness against the White Walkers as much as it has to be do with their symbolism for the Starks . I hate how they’re just butchering the direwolves. This feels so much like another Stark setback. I don’t think I can take anymore Stark defeat at this point.
I was absolutely blown away by a couple of things.
The children made the white walkers? “HO. LEE. SHIT” I said the wife.
Then…Bran MADE Hodor? Like basically ruined his entire life. No wonder Hodor freaks out in previous seasons when Bran wargs into him…HE KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
Those two moments blew me out of my chair. And I’ve read the books, twice.
The rest, amazing episode. Amazing season so far.
Glad the have the Iron Islands rolling along a a fast clip. They are a bore in the books. The question is…is Yara going to try and beat Euron to Dany? Everybody has been saying Yara is going to go get Dany, but that was clearly not what Euron had in mind. As a matter of fact, it makes total sense, new king eliminates potential usurpers to his claim to the throne.
Also throwing my hat in the ring of “Stop Killing the Fucking WOLVES already” group. At least Summer died saving his masters life. Hopefully Shaggy Dog had a similar ending (or that wasn’t his head at all).
OMG!!! Can I just say … Oh, Crap.
This was such a kick-ass episode and, at the same time, such a sad one. We have to say goodbye to Hodor (Kristian Nairn) who’s been such a staple since S1, E1. We have to say goodbye to Summer, which leaves us with only 2 of the 6 direwolves left, Ghost and Nymeria. We have to say goodbye to the Three-Eyed Raven (Max Von Sydow, always a favorite of mine) and we have to say goodbye to Leaf and the CotF. All in all, a long Curtain Call list for tomorrow.
I’m still not sure why Sansa lied to Jon unless, of course, she’s still reticent about admitting Littlefinger’s part in Ned’s death, and everything else, to Jon in the fear that Jon will rush off to kill Littlefinger. IMHO, it wasn’t a great move but I can understand the possible motivation behind it.
I don’t think Arya is going to kill Lady Crane. I think she will, however, kill the understudy and get the hell away from the HoB&W before Jaqen offs her.
Euron is a pig and, at the same time, such a great character. I agree with Sue about the new GoT rule, too. We all know what Theon had and lost, now it’s time for Euron to put up or shut up . As I understood the casting call before filming started, they weren’t going for a strict Aeron character. My reading of it was a combination of Aeron and Victarion since they were going with the Euron side of the KM story.
So many more things to talk about since I studiously avoided reading anything on the site until the episode aired tonight. I’ll have to watch it again (more than once, I’m sure) and I’ll lay out some other stuff tomorrow.
He held the door ?
Rip Summer and Hodor ?
I’m gonna go cry again now….
Shadow Shifter,
FWIW Summer was not butchered, Like Hodor he sacrificed his life so Bran and Meera could live.
Arya, hurry up and get back to Westeros. Jon needs a sister he can trust in.
Seriously, I like Sansa keeping things close to the vest. She has changed, and I’m sure she appreciates Jon more now, but she is still her mother’s daughter. I think she is using Jon. I just hope she acknowledges the risk he is taking by going to war for her and the Starks, even though he is only a bastard in her eyes(nice job comparing him to Ramsay, Sans).
Jack Bauer 24,
Next episode for the first two? By episode 7 for Bronn? Frankly KL et all were not missed. I felt that this was a truly great episode. I did not miss them. Although I’m very interested in Jaime’s upcoming arc.
Was really hoping Hodor would be one of the few survivors in the end. Really nice how they tied it in but a tremendous gut punch combined with thinking last week how I wanted Osha to say “little lords” one last time. It’s like the slowest TV plotline of the first few seasons is actually now providing the most nostalgia and longing now as we near the end game.
So my understanding is correct,
Bran warged into Hodor, whilst in the vision of the past. So whilst there, that caused his seizure? I.e., warging to someone in the present, while in the past, causes it?
Need some clarification.
Ice Spider,
I avoided the site and any emails regarding GoT all day. I wait every Sunday for the broadcast and don’t post anything just in case.
I absolutely hate that people try so hard to ruin such a good show by pirating it and then posting links so people can watch before anyone else.
A top notch episode. Also the 4th episode in a row with no Dorne, that’s an instant success right there, one can only hope we don’t see Ellaria or the Sand Snakes again unless it’s for them to die brutally. I know that sounds grim, but who can honestly say they wouldn’t want the same.
1. Iron Islands. I dunno, I built up the Kingsmoot in my head to be more epic. The chapter in Feast for Crows is pretty damn epic. Euron admitting he killed Balon bothered me. It’s like Kinslaying doesn’t mean anything in the show anymore. Technically he should be put to death right then and there. Then we get him saying a bunch of boring dialogue followed by “let’s kill my niece and nephew”. All and all, I felt that the Iron Island stuff was rushed. It would have been good if they did this last season and then expanded on the Iron Born plot this year.
2. Castle Black. Interesting stuff, but not much happened. It’s mainly setting up the end game for this season. It’s good to see them leave now, the North plot will now all be build to the battle in episode 9. The Littlefinger teleportation bothered me because it could have easily been resolved. Episodes 1 & 2 were quite short, they should have just put Littlefinger’s scene from last week in one of those episodes, then at least we would have some sort of buffer. He’s teleported a lot before but this was the biggest by far.
3. Braavos. I like the info on the Faceless men, even though I already knew that. Info from the books always makes me happy. After last week I thought Arya’s story would start to progress more, but it’s slowing down again. It’s a bit frustrating.
4. Slaver’s Bay. Kinvara’s has nice tits, I have to get that out of the way first. It was unbelievably distracting… in a good way. She was creepy and is also obviously 200+ years old, I don’t care though, I’d still motorboat that, I mean those, I mean her. Emilia Clarke acted pretty well. The dialogue “I command you to heal yourself” made me chuckle, but the emotion was top notch.
5. Beyond the Wall. The reveal of how the Others came into existence was pretty damn creepy but cool. Quite a few book readers probably thought something like this happened. It’s nice to see the official reveal though. The ending scene.. like… holy shit man. I’m dead inside right now. Summer – dead, Leaf – dead, Bloodraven – dead, Hodor – dead. This wrecked me. It was an intense scene, and an intense reveal. This leaves the question, is Bran trapped in the past at the moment? How long will we wait for him to return? Will he return? Bran’s story is definitely the most interesting this season so far.
Overall a great episode, the stakes keep going up. Episode 2 is still my favourite so far, but the Bran stuff here made it memorable. If it weren’t for Bran though this episode would not have been as good. It made this episode.
The last vision the Raven could have shown Bran…? Why Hodor becoming Hodor other than to show how he can influence/change the past?
Something jumped out here: the only CoTF we’ve seen depicted are all female, the WW have been uniformly male…unless both are some sort of non gendered beings, I don’t think this is a random coincidence.
PJ,
Two of the things I hope for most, and I think many would agree, are seeing Nymeria and Gendry, again.
The dig of the century between sorcerer and apprentice.
Great recap. There is much alignment from thoughts shared in the previous thread. Still aghast. Commentary for this week’s episode will probably be the most interesting ever. I transversed the entire spectrum of possible emotions during this episode.
GameofHype,
Watch some Preston Jacobs, he goes into this stuff in detail. You aren’t supposed to warg into people for a reason. Read the prologue of A Dance with Dragons, it will make more sense then.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
But that was not Arya standing there, she is now no one, isn’t she? 🙂
Jacquen had to know what the play was about and likely what putting her in that position would do. Could this be a test that if she fails for the third time? She has a decision to make, if she were to be go ahead, could this be a line crossed … killing a decent person?
Amen Sister… Amen
What a great recap!! I wasn’t expecting one so soon. Since I have to be up in 4 hours Im going to bed (hopefully sleep will come). This was by far the most amazing episode with shades of brilliance. Kudos to D&D for really bringing the show together and for (hopefully) silencing all the naysayers on whether you would be able to write a show that’s perfect now that we are beyond the books. I say you did a fine job boys.. a FINE job.
I don’t like to stir the sibling pot but it would be epic if Arya went back to Westeros, reunites with Jon and just as Sansa comes in talking strategy Arya would be all: LIAR… Cuz that’s how you play the lying game.
I haven’t really posted here much, and I doubt I’ll add anything new to the discussion, but I just need to unload my thoughts on this to SOMEBODY. I’m sure you all understand! 😉
First – loved Sansa sewing to start the episode. Even after all she’s been through, she’s still a lady, and is going back to her upbringing to help her cope. Beyond that, her scene with Littlefinger was probably my favorite scene of Sansa’s to date. Everything about Sophie’s performance there was just perfect. She really brought the rage and betrayal to life – and the lines really shed a lot of life on just how bad Ramsay was to her. I mean, we knew it was bad, but last season only really hinted at it – this told us how it went way beyond rape, and shows us just how strong Sansa was to endure it. And how she has every right to be furious with Littlefinger. But ever the manipulator, LF’s little “half-brother” remark as he lives sowed the seeds that led to Sansa’s lie to Jon later on.
Anya’s scenes were probably her most interesting of the season.
Loved the Kingsmoot. Though it came off a little bit more awkwardly than the book, and I’m not sure how Yara and Theon managed to stir up a big enough crew to steal all the ships, I love that they’re generally keeping with the Ironborn story from the book – that they’re likely going to be the ones to meet up with Daenerys and bring her home. Euron was great – saying he paid the iron price to take the throne makes sense of them all basically just ignoring his confessed murder. Great line.
Then Kinvara… man… this was some awesome stuff. The actress they had playing her was PERFECT, and Conleth Hill’s reaction to her lines as Varys was just so good. That scene was just so filled with tension. And the way they’re deliberately setting up the Dany/Jon contrast – BOTH with Red Priestesses calling them the one who was “promised” – I can’t tell if they’re setting up a conflict or alliance here. But the two are just as connected as we’ve always known. (My wife made a great point on the idea of a potential conflict between Dany & Jon – with Tyrion on Dany’s side, we just can’t see how he would go against Jon and Sansa. His only beef is with his family. I imagine it’ll be an Dany and Jon as two sides of the same coin).
I love Davos. He’s just so good. I’m going to try to choose to ignore that it doesn’t make a lot of sense for them to go try to get the Tully army – I mean, even if they weren’t under siege (which I suppose Sansa wouldn’t know), they’d have to cross the Twins anyway to get up to the North. Not a likely proposition. Oh well. I’m just glad Brienne got to have some good lines – she hasn’t had too much to say really since Season 4.
And then that ending… I don’t even know what to say. As much as I want to know more about why the Children seem to be helping the humans now, and want to see more White Walker drama played out… Poor Hodor and Summer. What a heartwrenching end. Having already known the Red Wedding, Jon & Ned & Joffrey’s deaths, and all the other shocking moments were coming when watching this show, it’s so good to finally see one of those classic GoT stomach punches. Wow.
And I’ve gotta end it with saying Sam is OP for giving them that Dragonglass before they set off North from the wall, eh?
Sorry for the essay. I was just too excited and needed to dump this somewhere.
There was no Night’s Watch yet at that point. That myth is either truth twisted to exaggeration by millennia of telephone or it’s the story of someone else. That guy could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time or he could have been the leader of the First Men. I hope we find out eventually since he’s going to be the main antagonist at some point, but I don’t think we’ll find out this season what his real story is. I still wonder how many of them there are. He also seems to travel with three companions, but they’re the same ones each time and we know there are a lot more – we saw 13 when they turned Craster’s last son, and Craster had 99 previous sons they already turned, and there had to have been more from the past, too.
House Applebee,
I’m 4 days away from moving overseas, so I’ve boxed my set of ASoIF :(.
Could you clarify?
Dammit, I’m crying again… what a wonderful, poetic recap.
I concur and honestly I know how much effort all of the cast and crew and producers…EVERYONE has done to try and bring a show to us that is bar none excellence … so for me its just disgusting anyone would dishonor that by leaking it and talking about it. I literally had to not do my job tonight for fear of seeing something online. That is the first time ever I think that has happened to me, and as unsettling as that was I was more upset about the jerks who tried to ruin for us who were waiting to see it legally (even some on here were doing it). I really hope HBO finds all the people responsible for downloading and fine them to hell and back.. would serve them right.
The foreshadowing continues…
JON: Don’t knock down this here Wall while I’m gone.
EDD: I don’t have the fortitude or the manpower for this shit.
…
Is it next Sunday yet?
Bran was the voice Varys heard in the flame by the way
Exactly! They have to explain more about them. Maybe trained knights?
Also I will probably lose it if Summer and Hodor come back like zombies.
Additionally, the dark figure with the flail that has fire inside it seen in the trailer…
I’m guessing its
Excellent chance the guess is way off, but one can hope. We’re certainly not done with
though.
Can I please add The Hound here.. sorry but Rory so does it for me… 😉
Ice Spider,
A romantic dinner at KFC for you two then? 😛
Ice Spider,
Sure you can… anyone is welcomed back. Even Joffrey just so he could get killed again. That little shit.
IIRC Varynar Sixskins had been warned about warging in to another human being by his mentor, the Wildling wargs considered it to be an abomination. I don’t remember if it was objectionable b/c of the gross violation of free will, or simply considered unnatural.
Shadow Shifter,
Summer died protecting Bran. This death makes sense unlike Shaggy who was killed like that. It’s pretty clear all direwolves and dragons will die before the end. Both magical creatures, magic might leave the Westeros after the war. And this war will be costly.
We all know Arya’s NOT going to be a real faceless man.. she doesn’t have it in her.. I mean geeeeesh… she was asking q’s left and right …but …but… and I really don’t see how she can determine from ONE bit of a person’s conversation that she can determine the actress is a “decent” person. I don’t see her going forward in killing her. I know Jaqen isn’t dumb so he has to know that she isn’t ready either…. not sure what game he’s playing with her?
Wasn’t there supposed to be a Dragon Horn during the Kingsmoot? I feel like Euron having that was a big part of that in the books…
Zombie Summer and Hodor will undead on in our hearts.
I felt like we needed some kind of explanation for why 3ER and Bran were back at Winterfell when the attack came. Okay so you have to abort Bran’s training early and he’s got to run. Neither of them are going to be much help packing so you’ve got some time for one last vision. So you go look at Ned leaving for the Vale. Earth-shattering! It just seems contrived to have him there with young Hodor with no other reason for him to be there at that moment. Unless 3ER knows that this is what Bran has to do. But if he knows that Bran is going to have to mess up Hodor escaping from the cave and the only reason he could ever have to escape from the cave is if a White Walker touches him in a vision…. why the heck didn’t he ever tell him about that? At the very least he could have waited until he thought Bran was ready and then done it on purpose if that’s what had to happen to avoid a paradox and blow up the space time continuum.
KFC covers all their chicken with flour… Im with The Hound and eat it naked… 😉 More liking a fire pit and some ale… KFC is too PG 13 for a romantic dinner with the likes of him!!
Lol.. I actually wasn’t a big fan of Joffrey. I was glad to see him gone.. Tywin was my kind of antagonist.. Joffrey is just like Ramsey.. too over the top and out there.. I like subtle shits… bring Tywin back any day I say!!
At this point. I am totally sold, that Meera is Targeyren/Lianna baby. Absolutely no doubt about it.
I know, right? They could have just had Summer run with Bran and Meera. Why would he leave his side, anyway? I thought the dire’s instinct would be to stay close to his human and protect him at all cost. Staying behind like that… I don’t know… And Hodor… :'( He’s a true hero.
Loved the episode, so many interesting revelations north of the Wall!
Can’t complain about Sansa and Jon’s story line, 100% team Stark and Sansa just needs to keep doing what she’s doing (outside of trusting Littlefinger). Although I can’t see lying to Jon ending particularly well.
Wasn’t overly stoked with the Kingsmoot, I understand the time constraints but felt like it was far more dramatic in the books. I think that they failed to develop the mystery of Euron prior to throwing him in the mix, and that might be where it came undone for me. I found it a bit difficult to think someone could just rock up and say a good idea, and people would blindly follow him! Still a good scene, especially post Kingsmoot, but personally hoped for more!
Loved everything that happened with Bran and Co, fantastic last scene! I do think that maybe it was a bit hard to follow how Bran actually got in Hodor’s head, and how that whole warging situation played out. I have vague ideas, but would love to know what everyone else thinks!
GameofHype,
Nope. It’s too much to put in a comment. And I’ll end up stuffing it up. It’s best you read it. Let’s just say there are a lot more Wargs in the books, such as Sweetrobin and Varamyr Sixskins.
I wasn’t referring to the manner of death but to the fact that they killed off two direwolves within just two episodes. Who’s next? Ghost? We might get Nymeria this season but for how long? I don’t think the show gave much emphasis to the connection between the direwolves and their owners. Yes, there had been instances where they did that (Ghost during Jon’s resurrection) but it’s far too inconsistent.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Maybe I¨m seeing stuff that isn´t there but I think the play was blaming everything on Tyrion…Do you think that Arya will look for him to kill him? 🙁
Leuf,
Why Winterfell? Partially it could be about Ned and the Vale and also Hodor. Robert Aramayo is supposed to be in the next episode in some small scene and then big one. Him and Robert before the rebellion, Lyanna kidnapped, his father’s death. He was in this flashback in episode 5.
I think the last lesson the 3ER could give Bran was the most important one, and that was to NOT let his emotions take over his role. He kept wanting to go back and see more of visions before he was ready emotionally to deal with them. Free will is a BEEEEOTCH.. and Bran learned the hard way. Bet he won’t do that again. The consequences are too high..and losing Hodor in that manner may have been the only way he was going to ever get it. 3ER tried to tell him time and time again to WAIT .. but he didn’t listen.
So did the Three eyes raven know he had to place bran in that moment knowing the significance?
I’d seen a spoiler on reddit by accident and was ticked and kind of down all day-but when I saw the end of the episode? It hit me hard and I started ugly sobbing.
I also got teary during Jorah/Dany scene and thought the same thing- it was best stuff from her since Drogo vision, emotionally speaking. Challenge accepted. Jorah will find the cure.
Sansa–all season she has been seriously impressing me with her growth and poise and LF meeting was amazing because whether he knew about Ramsay in theory or not-she pushed his face in it and actually made him speechless. Then he whispered “half brother” and she acted squirrely with Davos and lied to Jon. Way to take lemon cakes and turn them into what-the-heck-are-you-thinking-about lemons. I know you’ve been through a lot, but Jon has too (hello being murdered, watching all your friends die and fighting ice zombies) just don’t spoil my Stark reunion okay? Also your sewing is really impressive and I want your dress. But still…
FM info was nice but Arya needs to leave now. The Waif isn’t wrong. She’s never going to be no one. And the sooner she learns that, the sooner she can join the fight and we can see Gendry again. Yes, I said it. 🙂
All I’ll say about the kingsmoot is the storm god wasn’t that stormy–but I’m really glad Yara grabbed those ships and people loyal to her followed. Smart move.
Varys looked completely freaked out-understandably. Who was the voice?! What did it say?!
(My friend I always talk to after the show pointed out the amount of penis talk in this episode-which I didn’t notice because of the crying. Euron jokes to Theon and grabs himself when talking about Dany *oh yeah, she’ll totally fall for you*. Varys and another Red Woman discuss his defining incident. The actor with warts has a close up none of us needed.)
Mel had no speaking lines but I could hear her tired heavy sighing in every scene she’s in. Are you sure you want to go on this trip Mel? You don’t seem that into it. Also Davos is not going to stop asking about Shireen.
PS My husband has now combined her name with melancholy. Melichandra lol
Bran. I would say he never learns, but his face when he saw what happened to Hodor-realized that he caused it–first because he was curious and then because he didn’t leave the vision while warging Hodor…I think he knows now. And BR KNEW the whole time. The past is written. The ink is dry. It had to be that moment and it was always going to happen. *sob*
Meera was fantastic in this episode and Hodor –both versions of him-shattered my heart into a million pieces.
Brienne was wonderful too. Her list of people she didn’t trust was cut off as she was talking about “that bearded-” And Tormund’s smile was ridiculous and I love him and want him to follow her to the Riverlands and start a love triangle with Jaime–who should be heading there soon right? Right? That was my bright spot. One second of smiling from Tormund and Jon’s genuine smile when Sansa gives him a Stark cloak.
And Edd. My unlikely LC. Close the bloody gate.
#stopkillingdirewolvesorelse
So Blackfish took back Riverrun, but in the trailer Walder is toasting and seems fine?
^ This. I actually fell for Ghost first before Jon. 🙂 When I was reading the books I always savored those parts when the direwolves interacted with their humans. So yeah, maybe they have no roles in the end-game but I agree with you that every dead direwolf is akin to a Stark death. Some here might scoff at a reaction like this but there are fans like us who just really feel an affiliation to this family and their direwolves. Oh GOT.
No second part of ToJ since the cave is gone now?
Top 10 episode. Maybe top 5. I can’t even write about it right now because…hold the door. Talk amongst yourselves. I’ll be here hugging my dire wolf.
OMG… I know hodor’s death is coming cause.. spoilers.. but i had no idea about summer.. SHIT!!!
But one thing that really bothers me was the night king’s mark on bran… if it remove the magic of the cave, and if the mark is still with bran until they enter the wall… then… Oh god… save them all… that might be the cause why the walkers was able to go beyond the wall
This episode left me feeling sooooo sad; HOLD THE DOOR!!! He held the door 🙁 🙁 🙁
Ice Spider,
I’m not either … he’s giving her a stern test, one I don’t think he believes she will pass … but is there a hidden agenda beyond seeing if she is ready to be a FM.
The waif was even more badass than I expected. If she is sent to add a face to the wall if Arya does not … it will be most interesting to see how she outfights or outthinks the waif …. a last chance for any latent abilities to emerge?
Fantastic episode!
Jack Bauer 24,
There are still weirwoods in Westeros and Bloodraven left Bran in the vision at the end, so he could move to another vision from the one he was in, if that makes sense.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think you sort of answered your question here.
My guess is that either
excuse me. you kinda don’t know what you are talking about -HBO leaked it. thats first. second their “letters” are basically direct mail advertising that says please subscribe to HBO and they are using their ability to “track” those who shared and watched as data farming. Please be mindful that so called pirating is a complex, highly misunderstood issue regrading technology, monetization, data mining and advertising. Don’t just parrot outdated, nonsensical rules and laws. They have outlived their time. The law is nothing more than the rules of the human condition. As such they must grow along with the human condition. Unnecessary finger wagging.
So Bran will be the reason the Wall falls? If the mark of the Night’s King is sufficient to overcome the spells on the 3ER’s cave … then is it sufficient to override the spells on the Wall?
So it’s clear Arya will never be No One. I wonder if this means the Faceless Men will try and kill her for the rest of her life.
darkdadi,
Yes, exactly. Bran’s actions appear to have significant long-range implications
Can I also offer a word of praise to Sam Coleman? He had less than 5 minutes screentime and only a handful of lines, but gave a performance that will be looked at as iconic & series defining.
Well done Sam!
Yes, I’m hoping it’s him. About damn time he returns. They showed his kid version once again in Bran’s WF vision. Maybe it’s foreshadowing of him coming back to save Meera and Bran? If he’s indeed coming back, is it asking too much for the writers to keep him a while longer and not have him show up just to be killed (Exhibit A: Osha)?
Have to add
For me–this episode hit me so much harder than the Red Wedding. Summer and Hodor have been saving Bran and carrying him since the beginning. I keep thinking of Osha smiling at Hodor as they walked and Summer saving Bran and Cat’s life after his fall… Summer sacrificed himself and sweet, innocent, loving Hodor literally gave his life-past and present-to holding that door, along with his mind.
I need a drink.
Geralt of Rivia,
With the current direwolf luck, I hope Nym is book only going forward. Let our imagination fill in her story rather than kill another wolf.
LawofFury,
I’m not totally sold, but I’m 100% on board now if it turns out true. She’s always been kind of cool but the stuff she pulled off in this episode just made her one of my favorite characters. 1 of 3 total WW kills too. Badass.
What if it’s LF’s way to once again screw up Sansa?
Even “honest” servants of the Lord make mistakes … do we know any dishonest servants? … terrible things happen for a reason … even mutilation at the hands of a second-rate socerer … if you are her true friend you have nothing to fear from me …
I’m terribly intrigued by how Kinvara and Melisandre relate … as Kinvara is the high priestess of Volantis and I believe Volantis is the chief temple of R’hllor … is she essentially Melisandre’s superior … did she send Melisandre (and Thoros) to Westeros? Are they not honest servants of the Lord?
I recall Wimsey saying the he would not be surprised if R’hllor was the voice Varys heard … it appears he was correct … given how fixated Varys was on the experience, you’d almost expect him to want to know what the word was
Will Tyrion find himself in the same position as Cersei with the Sparrow? I don’t think so but he is playing with forces beyond his control
House Applebee,
Preston Jacobs is awwwwwwwwful.
The trailer showed Brienne and Pod hostage right? Maybe LF was lying then.
The trailer showed Brienne and Pod hostage right? Maybe LF was lying then.
This episode left me crushed…and fighting back tears…RIP Hodor, you gentle giant! You held the door indeed! I love this show and this episode just amped that even more if that’s possible! Just outstanding work by all involved!
This is one of those shattering episodes in every sense of the word!
PS Between the awesomeness of “Game Of Thrones” and “Penny Dreadful”, tonight I was treated to two hours of pure, unadulterated brilliant programming! Though reeling from Wylis’s aka our beloved Hodor’s fate, this was fan-fucking-tastic! “Preacher” here I come…ohhh its a good time to be a nerd-geek!
I don’t get the Sansa hate. I think she’s just holding her cards close to her chest at this point. I don’t see her betraying Jon for LF.
What I don’t understand is why did she trust LF’s info about the Blackfish and Riverrun if she didn’t trust him. LF could have easily lied to her about the strength of the Tully forces. It would have made sense more if she accepted LF’s Vale army while still reaching out to her uncle. But she basically rejected LF’s offer to give her an army at the same time accepting his information about the Blackfish and Riverrun without hesitation. It’s odd.
Leuf,
The parallel editing works so well though (this season it’s been a staple). Any instance of “time travel” will have holes like you mentioned. Just physics.
So Bran had to be in the vision at WF at the exact same time the WW attacked the cave so he could warg into Hodor at the exact same moment he needed him … otherwise why would they be in trance mode when the WW were almost at the cave
And it appeared that Wylis could see Bran at the moment he warged into Hodor
3ER exit had echoes of Obi-Wan Kenobi’s exit to me
Jack Bauer 24,
Littlefinger is a slimy one. I wouldn’t be surprised if he set her up to fail so she’d come back to him and ask for his army. That would be such a Littlefinger thing to do.
The Blackfish could have just retaken his home, but logically you can assume that he lost a lot of soldiers and doesn’t have many resources to spare. Not to mention they’d have to get the army north for the battle and it would be hard to pass The Twins and Moat Cailin. He also can’t afford to leave Riverrun if he’s just taken it (he has to secure it). In my opinion, Sansa’s inexperience was showing. It’s like she forgot the Red Wedding even existed.
I think the trailer showed them inside Riverrun (the Tully flags were in the background). They could just be going inside to meet with the Blackfish and talk.
dwm,
Ahaha wrong. He’s the best asoiaf youtuber out there. Much better than that shitty hack fraud Emergency Awesome, i.e. the worst game of thrones youtuber. Yes, I wont even regard him as a asoiaf youtuber, he does not deserve that respect.
House Applebee,
I like Alt Shift X…
I hope this is the only instance of “time travel” we’ll see. It was epic, but I don’t want them to muddy the waters when it comes to bigger events. This whole concept of time being a closed loop won’t really feel right to me if it allows Bran to significantly alter the world.
I feel like when it comes to Hodor, it makes a strong point about the “dark side” of Bran’s powers, in particular warging into a human being, and gives a satisfying end to Hodor’s mission of protecting Bran, but I really hope we don’t find out that massive events in the present were actually caused by Bran’s interference. It would just feel too much like Doctor Who-esque time travel sci-fi. And it would feel like a cheap storytelling device. Just my two cents.
What are your thoughts ?
Darkrobin,
And Leaf went out like Vasquez in Aliens!
I agree. I hope the purpose of that vision is for the 3ER to remind Bran to be careful with his power – as there would be dire consequences like Hodor’s. Maybe that was the last and most important lesson he needed to teach Bran that’s why they went there.
Very good episode.
Hodor, you were the best of them. I am comforted by the fact that despite poor Wyllis’ early trauma, Hodor was still a friendly, playful character throughout much of his life. I was surprised that
Also, props to the actor who played Rickard. Great little moment. The TER’s disintegration into feather-like ashes was beautifully done.
I was surprised as well that the Night’s King was the original ‘White Walker’ made by the CotF. I always thought perhaps there had been more than one. Interesting.
Oh Jorah. My bear. Iain and Emilia nailed it. The way he stepped back from her. And Emilia saying that
FINALLY admit it, dammit. Lol! 🙂 He will be back, I now have no doubt.
Aeron’s speech and Euron’s drowning, nicely done. I know some are less than impressed with the Kingsmoot, but I thought Theon was wonderful. Pilou is a great Euron, I don’t care how many fucking eyes he has. 😉
Yup, Littlefinger has that hold on Sansa still. Interesting words in the ‘About the Episode’, I will say. Jon looked incredulous for a moment, that’s for sure.
A favourite little moment – Hodor and Meera’s chat in the cave before chaos breaks out.
Goodbye Summer, you were ill-used in my book. May you and Shaggydog mess up the dragons’ CGI in revenge. <3
Pj,
Good for you. ??Do you want a medal or something? Why are you telling me this? I don’t recall asking.
Jack Bauer 24,
The best lies are hidden in truth. Blackfish holds RR but has no army. The Frey toast likely occurs after Jaime retakes RR and
Leuf,
I know. Did them being back in WF only become necessary when the NK touched Bran? Or did the fact that it was always necessary only become apparent when the NK touched Bran? Is time/the future linear? Was this result predestined so that the 3ER should have known this was going to happen as he knew why Wylis became Hodor? Or did Wylis only have to become Hodor when the NK touched Bran?
In other words was Bran predestined to go into the vision by himself? If so did the 3ER have to allow him to do it by pretending to be sleeping? Or did Bran have the free will to do or not do it and thus the reality was only created after he did?
It’s enough to fry my brian 🙂
House Applebee,
Hi… just making friendly conversation. No need to be rude.
Tycho Nestoris,
Yes, similar
Shadow Shifter,
Comparing Jon to Ramsay and camera was focused on Jon’s reaction, witholding information about her meeting with LF and lies about how she knew about Tully’s army. Jon never wanted fighting, leading an army or seat at Winterfell. Her gift to Jon could be nice gesture or another piece of manipulation. We might get Stark vs Stark friction because why not, not like they didn’t suffer enough or people, direwolves associated with them.
Pj,
I’m not being rude, I’m being honest. If you’ve got a problem with my honesty then maybe you should have put more forethought into your response to me.
Goodness, I hope they don’t go this route. Oh, and before she compared Jon to Ramsay, she said something like “I’m a Stark”, not “we’re Starks”. Although of course, Jon technically is not a Stark. LF’s machinations are working again, it looks like.
CHAT: verb
1. talk in a friendly and informal way.
Anyway… I think the lesson for Bran was precisely that. The old ‘with great power comes great responsibilities’. I wonder how he’s going to react to what happened.
Won’t rehash all the discussion we had in the early chat.
Just going to point the highlights of the episode.
This episode….it’s in my top 5.
The ending was… I cried, I just really cried… You held the door, buddy, you held it…
Dany and Jorah, this hit my quite hard as well. Superb acting and I hope we get more of Ian Glenn!!
Aeron’s speech, seriously it was amazing, just pure amazing. Will write a short comment on Euron too.
Someone here thinks that Melisandre would say Sansa that Littlefinger helped Lannister to betray her father?
The trailer for next week doesn’t really have me that enthused, except Meera and Bran, who I suspect will run into someone we’ve all talked about. I haven’t been able to get into the KL plot very well so far.
That’d be fine and well, except for the fact that HBO leaked it themselves.
Euron isn’t a eye-patched, blue lipped, warlock holding pirate.
And I love it.
These over the top characters was, one, if not my main complaint about the last 2 books.
I just couldn’t treat them seriously.
Also glad we were sparred the
The actor, who I thought did a very good job at portraying this Euron…If you wanted book Euron you may not like him though.. He still had enough of the ruthlesness and crazy, that I like about Euron but he also was much more ”real”.
Another player in the game, another person ”climbing the ladder”.
I was preparing myself, afraid that he will be too cartoonish, like in the book, but I was pleasently suprised! Looking foward to see more of him and Pilou.
Just a fair warning, I will not enter debates about him. Because the reason I like him, is the reasons some book readers may dislike him, so lets avoid it and just agree to disagree.
Pj,
Careful now, when you start bringing definitions into this you’ve eliminated the criteria of “informal”. I am well aware what a “chat” is, you see I also have a dictionary as well. I understand the book is quite rare but I have my hands on a copy I assure you. If you really want to be held to an objective criteria be my guest, but that removes the informality.
Can we also throw a round of applause for Sam coleman, who played young Hodor?
Amazing talent.
Did anyone else recognize the actor playing Ned in the play as the same actor who was a Lannister soldier in Black Water and more famously he was the guard who barred Sandor and Arya from entering at the Red Wedding. Was that the same guy?
Pigeon,
HBO uploaded it early to their service. It was then torrented. The “leak” technically was HBO but the nefariousness was the torrenting (which is a problem every episode). BTW HBO Now has easily redeemable free trials.
Was more than one episode leaked or was it just this one?
I hope things don’t get spoiled before time. It’s really exciting to get hyped and form crazy theories.
Pj,
Only this, don’t worry.
DireWolfHeart,
Sam Coleman was great.
He held the door.
Traumatic. Sad about Hodor and Summer. Such a great scene between Dany and Jorah.
Not sure what to think of Sansa/Jon yet. If this season carries on like this it is going to be my favourite.
I don’t think Faye Marsay gets enough credit for her portrayal as the Waif. For some reason, Arya’s House of B & W story line has flown under the radar, people usually never talk about it or are bored with it.
Shadow Shifter,
At this point, the death of the direwolves clearly symbolizes the Starks’ coming of age. I have a feeling Ghost will die in the battle.
Nymeria, if she ever returns, will be different since Arya’s journey is so different from the other Starks. Her reuniting with Nymeria and the wolves which is (just like Arya) estranged and away from family would huge symbolic purpose.
This episode has taught me to stop caring about changes from the books, slight logical leaps-of-faith and non-canon scenes. That was absolutely riveting TV, that had me totally taken in for every minute of the episode. I believed it, and I cared. A TV show can’t really do better than that.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
She is amazing!!
The entire theater scene was superb and hilarious.
Just to add, I think that if there is one thing that the episode has also made clear, is that all the pieces in the puzzle are moving toward the reunion, no…better said, gathering we’ve all really wanted to see since forever…
And “If you acquire the reputation of a mad dog, you’ll be led out back and slaughtered for pig’s feed…”, ha, who knew Roose’s words could be prophetic (yet to come)…Did you hear that Ramsay?!
Can anyone explain to me how that time travel stuff works?
I mean, if someone needs to travel back in time to rescue his parents so that he or she can be born. How can that even happen if a rescue is needed?
How was this timeline with Bran/Hodor/Meera before he went back to the past?
You held the door, man. You held the door 🙂
The Inside the Episode confirms this is GRRM material, by the way. Some people were wondering whether this revelation about Hodor’s origin and his end comes from the source material or not. Apparently it does.
If you are paying for HBO, who gives a rats ass about watching the pirated version?
DRLOW,
It’s a loop.
One can not exist without the other.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Yeah, I love Faye. She does so much with not much dialogue or character arc, but is always a compelling foil for Arya.
Sir Imp hand Strong,
I am with you. Why would you kill the surprise and joy of watching GoT like that?
PS. I just watch the end again and it was even sadder than the first time. Hodor you are a legend!
You guys,that episode was BRUTAL…It has left me deeply disturbed in so many ways…the physical,emotional,moral and even spiritual complexities are legion…Oh,and that time traveling thing has fried my brain! 🙁 I´ll be needing lots and lots of explaining!! Ps…The writing,acting and sp effs were TOP notch!
This was one of the greatest episodes ever. I cried even more than I did wehen the killed Jon…
Tycho Nestoris,
That’s true if you live in a country where HBO now is available. In Germany (and I think some other European countries) there is no such thing. You have to buy a sky subscription for 20€ per month that runs for a minimum of two years if you want to watch legally.
So either you use vpn and HBO nordic or if you don’t know how to do that, you pirate it.
Sansa’s lie to Jon is pretty intriguing. Why doesn’t she trust him completely?
I could definitely see some Stark sibling tension happening. Remember GRRM’s original outline had a couple Stark vs Stark rivalries.
. So maybe one of those remains in the books/show.
Sansa is not a clean, pure Stark.
Don’t hate the messenger. Dan said it himself.
Arya please run away from those weird assassins and go to your brother, you’re the sister Jon needs in his life, not the manipulative wanna-be queen.
Oh man I have never been hit so hard by anything on TV so hard in my whole life. That last scene was absolutely heartbreaking, I cried helplessly like a baby, a 41 year old guy. Never had that happen before.
So “hodor – Hold the Door” is a problem for non-english versions in which they dubbed the voices. So for the German version, it should have been Hatür since the beginning. GRRM could have told them! But then ofcourse more people would have guessed what Hodor meant.
Hodor –> Hold the Door
RIP
I can’t help hating the Kingsmoot which I loved in the books. I just cringed at Euron. He was a completely unconvincing pirate and the iron born are simply portrayed as idiots.
They don’t care if their King is murdered, don’t care if their chosen King wants to murder his own family and all they seem to want to do is rush off invading places where they don’t have a hell’s chance of succeeding!!!…..for what? They’ve got the Iron islands, they live by the sea, why bother?
Euron’s intention to marry Dany just made me laugh. Like she would be interested in him? His ships perhaps but not him. Still, Yara rained on that parade luckily.
The Ironborn worked for me in the books. In the show, apart from Yara and Theon, they just come over as dimwitted and stupid.
Cringeworthy 🙁
Halfman,
I had the exact opposite feelings.
Loved the KM. Sorry to hear you didn’t.
DRLOW,
Time travel is only limited by the writers, as it seems impossible in real life at the current time.
In this case, it looks to me to be cyclical (which fits into a theme of the entire story). This series of events always happened. There was no “first time.” Some would call that a paradox, but then so is the creation of the entire universe. At some point, time has to not exist at all, or it exists all at once. Either way, Bran always caused Hodor’s seizure, which in turn saved his own life, which then allowed him to go back and do it all again.
Time is interesting, but sometimes it’s worth not thinking about it too hard.
First off, I really respect and admire all the folks who restrained themselves yesterday and waited until the live airing (I even posted to say so last night). But at the same time it’s kind of unfair for some of those people to look down their noses and attack the rest of us just because we gave into temptation. For me, it was simply too much of a risk as there were leaks spilling out everywhere and I made my peace with the fact I succumbed to temptation.
I get that it’s not cool (or even legal) but this was a HBO leak, the fault lies with their own security policies, and to attack fellow fans, question their ethics/values etc. is simply not cool. Not all of us tried to spoil others on here (very few in fact from what I can see, and I’m sure the mods did a sterling job at containing it). Speaking of which, I’m sure some of the mods even watched the leaked episode, so what you gotta say to that?
When all is said and done, I still recorded the episode last night (airs at 2am in the UK), and will watch the main UK screening tonight at 9pm, so HBO will still get their viewership stats from me.
Apollo,
Same here.
I usually I watch the episode monday morning, quickly before work. Then watch in in the evening, when it officially airs here on HBO, with couple of friends.
The temptation to watch the episode on a quiet sunday afternoon, was just to big for me….
Jon Snow’s Mother,
Actually no. Fellow German here. I have skyonline for 10€ a month and can stream the ep when it airs in the US and rewatch it as often as i like. In addition Itunes also brings out the new eps after they aired in UK (in addition to having it as a season pass)
Prayer circle for Ghost. Seriously, leave the direwolves alone.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
She’s great. I like to compare her natural-ness at fighting with why the Sand Snakes don’t work — they don’t look natural fighting. She fits the part well, has great chemistry with Maisie, and performs the fight choreography like someone who knows what she’s doing.
As for the whole storyline, I get why people are bored, but I enjoy Arya’s training a lot. We could either have her missing for an entire season like Bran or get to see her progress in real time, and I’ll take the latter. Training is repetitive, that’s the whole point. All the people who say “Can she just be an assassin already?” would be the same people complaining about “How is Arya suddenly so good at fighting?” if they streamlined her story and didn’t show us what she needs to go through. I’ll take a few montages to avoid that.
And I don’t think we have long before we’ll see some major changes to Arya’s current position.
I was looking forward to it but perhaps it was the writing and the actor’s portrayal combined which served to spoil it. All it amounted to was Euron saying because he had a penis and Yara and Theon didn’t, therefore he should be King and the Ironborn just said “Oh yeah, good reason” Never mind that he murders his brother and they don’t even react adversely to the news.
It just turned it into a farce to me.
The rest of the episode was fantastic though!
Halfman,
Yup. Pilou Asbaek is a good actor, but in my opinion he was miscast. Not because he doesn’t look like Euron does in the books, that doesn’t matter, but simply because he doesn’t have the same character. Part of that is the writing of course. He comes off like a brute leading a bunch of brutes instead of being a charming yet creepy/insane manipulator. “I’m gonna fuck the dragon queen with my big cock ! I killed my brother ! Let’s kill my niece and nephew ! Vote for me !”. Just didn’t work for me. The Ironborn sure are strange on the show. Kinslaying is no big deal I guess.
Other than that, best episode of the season.
Lex,
Amen. We get it, the Stark children need to lose their direwolves to learn about loss or whatever. Jon already died. He doesn’t need to learn anything from losing Ghost.
End the show with a pile of main character’s bodies, just let Ghost be there licking up the blood, wink at the camera knowingly, and then cut to black and I’ll be happy.
=P
I was kind of surprised that Theon and Yara split off from Euron. I had thought they would reluctantly follow him after he won the Kingsmoot (before the episode i.e. before I knew he would admit to killing Balon). This in essence creates two Iron Island story lines as I don’t think Yara, Theon and Euron will collide again for a while. I’m actually really happy about this because I think it sets up Euron to be a major villain for the remainder of the series. I also am not entirely sure about where Yara and Theon are headed.
The other thing I was surprised about was how Euron admitted that he killed Balon. They seemed to go to great pains to show that Euron had been sliced by Balon, so I thought there would be some kind of murder mystery there at the very least.
And finally, it was nice to officially have Theon back this episode. Alfie finally cut his hair and was acting like Theon and not Reek (for the first time since season 2 really).
awwe!!
what an episode to get one’s head around….
Littlefinger totally setting up Sansa when he realises that Sansa is not letting him in on the North battle. interestingly she sends Brienne cause if it is BS then she knows Big B will be able to deal with it all.
Comparing Jon to Ramsy instantly tells John he’s again always going to be a second rate Stark (yet a fully fledged Targ by the time winter and WW war is in town) yet Jon being Jon will learn the hard way as always.
Where is Ghost when everyone high tails it outa NW?? No CGI money B&B SERIOUSLY ?
Aww Tormund sneaky love at first sight eyes lol
NOT liking Brann learning the ultimate hard way with Summer, Leaf and crew, 3ER, hero Hodor and more than likely The Wall and everyone beyond it paying the price!! Sucks to be him on re-awakening.
Arya will never be no one, lets hope she realises this sooner rather than later. A hook up with Nymeria would be nice and needed since killing off the Direwolves seems to be a nasty tend atm!
Dany showing her soft side aww
Meera is becoming something else….
Hope that that guy on the horse with the flame ball (season trailer) is Benjen or someone of importance.
Cant wait for next week, always seems like a lifetime but love reading everyones analogies and this sites take and breakdowns of episodes in between. ; )
Halfman,
Funny, those things you disliked, I liked!
But I knew most book-readers won’t like that scene, but to me it removed all I didn’t like…
In tears. In absolute sniveling tears.
Was not prepared for that at all.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
My guess is they stole the fastest ships, to get to Dany before Euron.
Markus Stark,
Different kind of charisma, book Euron never convinced me. Pilou and the way they wrote him more ”real” more a human being, worked for me very good.
Looper,
Wow I’m surprised she does the fight choreography. I was wondering about that. Does she do all of it? Must be a good athlete. I wonder if Maisie does it as well? i.e. when she did that little flip off her back to get off the ground.
I’ve enjoyed the progression of Maisie in the House of B & W. It’s also learning a lot about the mystery of the faceless men and stuff like that. I wonder if most of the bored people are book readers since they already know all of this?
Mihnea,
But what do they care about Dany? I guess to stop Euron from getting too powerful? I dunno if I see them going to Mereen on a whim though.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Doubt it, in the books it’s even slower… The montage we god last episode… We basically got entire chapters of her learning poisons and selling Oysters…etc.
Great stuff
Am at work but have to say i,ll be thinking of Sweetrobins seizures a little differently
If i remember right he sits on a throne og Weir Wood in the Eyrie, despite the fact the trees can’t grow
A real mind screw
More later
Just wanna say that was a very emotional episode
I know I’m unsullied but wanna share this lol I like to read through sues recapt to see what she thinks and sometimes I skim the comments cause we’re mostly off the books now
My first though was
Why did they have to kill summer? Why? Why? Why hodor ? Why? Why??
Why? I’m not over this lol
After I became calm
WW – COTF – bran – wtf. No more three eyed raven – bran has to figure everything out. No more children to protect them or tell them, no more summer or hodor to protect bran. I am very concerned. These scenes were very difficult to watch. I had a feeling the children were a part of the WW. That’s so fucked up.
Mix of hardhome and red wedding. So so so hard to watch. Epic television
Loved Sansa in this episode. She is gorgeous. So strong also. Love how she is – so excited to see their journey to different houses. I don’t know what LF has got planned don’t think it’s the last we see him – his half brother comment annoyed me
Sansas gift to Jon made me cry. And her dress 🙁 those direwolves — pretty sure ghost is dying this season also. Wtf.
Brienne calling Jon emo was so funny.
Not sure why Sansa lied to Jon didn’t like that – I hope they don’t have a feud that would be dumb we have been waiting for Starks to come together for years and would be silly if they had feuds and betrayals within themselves – in not about that.
Also blackfish YESSS
The north is my favourite story line
Loved loved loved loved dany in this episode. Loved seeing her soft and emo, if people complain about her again I will freak out.
Unmm that red woman is so weird? WTF DOES SHE KNOW ABOUT VARYS???????????
So crazy how different priestesses follow different people. I am very intrigued. That’s why I think there is more than one saviour
Greyjoys – cool story – loved the tie to dany – euron wants to marry her hahaha might
ARYA ARYA ARYA Love HER STORY
I think the hit she is tasked with is cerseis request to be honest
Anyway she’s gonna say bye to the faceless men I think 🙂 yay
She has a dire wolf somewhere but seeing as how fast they’re killing them off I don’t think they’ll bring her back. I’m actually very annoyed about this.
All in all this episode is better than all we have seen so far and I’ve rated all the other ones 10/10 so not sure what to rate this one lol!!!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
They clearly knew Euron planned to murder them, that’s why they ran.
My guess for Dany doesn’t really come froom a storytelling perspective, but from a shot in the trailer.
I do expect a scene were Yara and Theon decide to go to her.
The other thing I took from the show is Arya has not become no-one. Anyone watching her face as the troupe did that show could see that.
Hey mihnea – how about dany in this episode ? Not very one dimensional hahaha
Loved her reaction to jorah – it melted my heart
Nathan Z.,
Am soooooooo freaking sad! Pls not Hodor!
Are all the Children of the Forest got wiped out now?
Dee,
Ha!
That’s the scene that hit me first! From there on it was a roller-couster of feels..
God were Emilia and Ian Glenn, great in that scene… Hope we see more of Jorah!!
Mihnea,
As long as you accept that the Ironborn are quite different in terms of culture compared to the books, there is no problem. I just don’t personally find it as interesting. I hope we get more from Euron this season, because for now I can’t really say he’s made the impression I wanted.
But a lot of that is very subjective.
I do the same every week, and like you I was in the process of being spoiled (friends were calling me and everything) so I thought “screw it”. As someone else here said we don’t need the “unnecessary finger-wagging”.
Mihnea,
It was so sweet
You said you cried three times.. When?
Oh my god, oh my god, OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just watched this episode and HODOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :O
I soooo did not see this coming! I am so shaken up! Please, please make the curtain call about him!!!!!
So is it me or is nobody talking about what is going to happen to Jorah now ?
What do you think of the idea of him heading to Oldtown to try to find a cure there ? I figure this would give him a chance to meet Sam, which could be interesting. Sam would learn more about Dany, which could allow him to later be a bridge between Jon and Dany, and he may be open to her as a ruler based on his relationship with Maester Aemon who seemed to believe in Dany. The fact that Sam knew Jeor quite well could also make for an interesting conversation with Jorah (even though Jeor’s last words about forgiving Jorah were omitted from the show).
Just a thought.
Markus Stark,
Yeah.. book comparasion I never do that. Didn’t found the Ironborn that different though.
Yup it’s purely subjective, because the reasons you disliked Euron are the reasons I liked him, and the other way around.
Really no point in arguing here, no one will change peoples taste.
On a side note, without concerning the story/characters/changes, can we agree that the drowning monologue was a fantastic moment?
Dee,
Jorah almost got me.. Summer and then Hodor.
Markus Stark,
Tyrion is the bridge between Dany and Jon/Sansa. In Season 1 he spent time with Jon at WF and the Wall. And he was very decent to Sansa while they were married.
Markus Stark,
I agree. Theon was the Stark’s hostage for years in order to keep House Greyjoy from risking another rebellion. Now all of a sudden, their King can be murdered by his brother and kinslaying isn’t an issue.
Markus Stark,
Getting
Mihnea,
To me the best part of the whole scene was when he callid him “Little Theon” and gave him that little tap on the face. I don’t know why but I really enjoyed that moment. The way Pilou delivered the line was priceless. The apology for not killing Balon sooner was great as well, though the Ironborn being so accepting of this still seems strange to me. As for the rest of the scene though, my issues remain. Not bad, just not to my taste.
Halfman,
Well Theon was Balon’s son. He cared about Theon in his… own way…
Euron really doesn’t care and anyone who would object would have already left with Yara.
Mihnea,
Why did summer have to die?
Mihnea,
Interesting, but Dany already has the High Priestess on her side, as well as many red Priests.. What would Jorah meeting another Red Priest contribute ?
And do we really think Jorah will indeed be cured ?
ArrySnow,
Thanks for the tip, I did not know that! Is that new or did I miss it the last years? I never saw any commercials or anything…
I feel a bit stupid for answering in English…
I am stunned, floored and plain heartbroken. These episodes have me gagging for air, so much to deal with and take in, it’s relentless.
Shoutout to my man Hodor, and my girl Meera, I mean this bish dragged Bran out the cave, she is the friend we all need but don’t deserve.
I also like that Sansa and Jon’s reunion isn’t smooth sailing, they have both endured their own hardships and I don’t blame Sansa for keeping some things to herself. Sophie delivered the performance of the ep for me when she met with LF, I was moved with how visceral her reaction was. The growth from Season 1 to now is exponential.
It’s also clear that Sansa is done with LF, his influence might still be there, I think like someone mentioned above, she’ll obtain the whole truth about her Father’s demise and LF’s involvement. Then she’ll kill him.
redxgod,
Good point.
I am still crying, I can’t stop. Summer and Hodor, omg, <3 and, of course, Jorah's declaration. Glen is great, the scene was superb, and Daenerys basically admitted she loved him too. Looking forward to seeing Jorah back, although I am not sure we will see him with Daenerys again, unfortunately…
I hope Iain Glen gets an award for his job as Jorah. The man is great, and does his own stunts.
Hodor will probably end up as the true hero of the story, if I see where all this is going.
The fantasy stuff, just WOW. A few inconsistencies, maybe (there should have been more than one NK, one being human, but we will see).
Sansa: has probably learned from the master, Littlefinger, and is preparing to outsmart him. I like it! Looking forward to Sansa, Jon and Davos on Bear Island.
Arya remembered she is a Stark. Interesting. Oh, and thank you for the slap in the face with the mention of "The winds of winter". That wasn't fair, especially knowing what was coming after.
For the first time in a long course Meereen wasn't boring and leaves me curious.
HOLD THE DOOR!
Markus Stark,
Just grasping at straws, hoping Jorah would live…..
r-hard,
Speculation or do you have some spoiler info ?
Markus Stark,
Eh, I thought he explains it preaty well why he killed Balon, Yara and the others clearly care as quite a lot of Ironborn leave with her.
But let’s stop, As you said it comes down to tastes in the end.
There is much more to the episode to disscuss. Bigger and frankly more important events.
Markus Stark,
Speculation.
I shed a tear during the Euron scene. I just got all whole choked up at the realization that we’d be finally getting another delicious baddy in the story. When he made fun of Theon’s no weener and said “let’s go murder them”, I nearly lost it.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Did you like the Drowning scene?
It’s, in my opinion among the best scenes in the series. That monologue was pure awesome..
Mihnea,
Yeah. I almost wish I hadn’t gone back and read the wiki’s and some chapters in Dance and Feast after season 5. I’d been so disciplined up until after the end of season 5, I read absolutely nothing from the book material that hadn’t been covered in the show yet. But I figured there wasn’t much left in the books and I was mostly right, though I’ve learned some things I wish I hadn’t. The whole Greyjoy drowning baptism I wish I left for the show.
The Onion Knight,
!!!
I’ll join you there 🙂 Perhaps Jorah will head to Oldtown, home of the citadel, in the home Maesters can cure him. …which is where Sam is headed. Grayscale can be halted and has been by maesters. I’m not sure whether Jorah would know that though.
What an episode! So many emotions running through me.
RIP Hodor and Summer ?
I have so many questions after this episode!
If I remember correctly, at its inception, The Wall was infused with CoF Magic to repel the WW. Does it now mean that, if “marked” Bran crosses The Wall, the WW will also be able to break the protective barrier on at The Wall like they did at the cave and bring their army through??!!??
It is kind of disappointing to me, especially on the heels of such a touching reunion, that after a few words with LF that Sansa would start to doubt Jon. I guess she really is her mother’s daughter. I’m hoping that she remains strong and eventually breaks whatever hold LF has on her for good. I really want to see a queen in the north that I can really love and not resent because it was at the expense of Jon.
Jon Snow's Mother,
skyonline replaced skysnap about half a year ago. Snap didn’t stream though. season passes have been avaible on itunes since i started watching the show (3rd season). before that i don’t know. i was a bookreader before my librarian pointed out that there was a show as well 😀
I haven’t read the books, but from what I’ve read about Victarion, it almost seems like they made a character that looks like Victarion, but acts like Euron. I think from the fan art I pictured Euron to be a little more elegant and mysterious. But on the show he is like this big sloppy guy that storms around everywhere. I kind of pictured him having a grand entrance to the Kingsmoot, maybe we would see his boat arrive or something. But instead he just barged into it, like “IM EURON”. It still works for me though, Pilou looks to be great casting.
Ice Spider,
Wow, that is quite a strong opinion and one hell of a way to tarnish everyone with the same brush. It is a shame that people watched it early and then actively tried to spoil it for others, but I don’t think you need to condemn everyone who watched it early. I live in the UK and have, for the past four episodes, stayed up till 2am to watch it. I don’t get to sleep till about 4am on those days as some of those episodes leave me too wired to sleep. With two young kids, I feel like a zombie the next day and then with work on Tuesday as well, it sets up the start of my week for exhaustion! I have a subscription to Sky online here and then watch the episode on that on Monday night again with my husband, but due to my love of GOT, I have to watch as soon as I can, which means staying awake till 2am. Now this week I had the opportunity to not have to stay awake till the silly hours of the morning and instead watch at 9pm (like you all do in the US). I will watch it again on Sky online this evening with my husband as usual as well. I don’t feel you should judge everyone the way you have. I have bought all the seasons on amazon video, bought a lot of GOT merchandise and have paid for his sky subscription just to watch GOT.
As for the episode itself, wow! That ending had me weeping the most I have ever wept at a TV show or film. I was properly sobbing. It was a terribly sad ending for the most innocent and lovely of characters. To know his whole life was ruined for this one moment and how he willingly sacrificed himself… It was just so desperately sad and beautiful.
The Dany and Jorah bit had me crying too. They acted that superbly and it was so nice to see that Dany realised he had been there for her all along and she couldn’t imagine the rest of her life without him in it. I love their friendship/relationship.
I don’t know why Sansa is receiving such a hard time. The way I read it, is that she is a little out of her depth and is trying to appear as strong and commanding as she feels inside. She got it wrong in a couple of instances, but it’s fascinating to watch her character developing and changing.
All in all an amazing episode! I can’t wait to watch it again this evening.
Izatty,
Right on! Different rules for different times but it will always be the same for control freaks who have to have everything their way or they will go nuts. It’s the internet! Everything is possible. And if Free Will is such an important thing to protect then let it be.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Victarion isn’t like that.
He’s more silent and a lot thicker in the head, not the kind of guy to brag about his cock.
The introduction actaully fits Euron. He is the kind of person that likes to give a show a performance and be in the center of atention.
This Euron is just a more ”real” version of the book version. A crazy, ruthless Ironborn, but a Ironborn nevertheless.
Mihnea,
I mean he more looks like him, like brutish. I guess I pictured Euron to look more like Michele Huisman, maybe because of fan art.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Ah, the looks yes. Allthough Vic is a lot more extreme then Euron, in looks, a lot bigger and taller, then even Pilou.
You oppened the box of crazy theories right there. The ”Daario=Euron” believers wl now come forth! 😛
So now that I read the recap here are my two cents in no particular order.
I believe Sansa lied about how she learnt of Blackfish because she knew that if Jon and particularly Davos learnt that they could use the Vale army they would have wanted her to make peace with LF. And I don’t think she is willing to do that. I imagine there must be quite a hatred for LF in her after what he put her through with Ramsay. So I think that is why she decided to keep the info on the availability of the Vale army to herself.
Secondly, somehow I imagined both Euron’s and Kinvara’s voice to be different, somehow harder, more ruthless. Euron’s mannerisms seemed so off to me.
I loved the Dany-Jorah scene, very emotional. Rooting for Jorah.
I think the waif is great! She so knows how to push Arya’s buttons and she clearly sees that A. is not FM material. I don’t know if Jaqen sees that too and is just playing with Arya, but if not, then the waif is the only one who clearly sees who Arya still is (and she still is Arya Stark, however she protests, given her facial expressions as she watched the play about her family. That brought up Yoren in me, RIP. It was very emotional for me too, wathching and imagining what she must feel as she watched her family’s humiliation. Suddenly she was transported back to the past, and the past still has a great effect on her). I think to become a FM you do need a trainer like the waif, who would not cuddle you. I don’t even think that she dislikes Arya, she is just best at her job. This is what she has to do to get to the essence of Arya, to strip away all unnecessary feelings and ideas. I do not want to have Arya kill the waif as she was the one I think taught Arya the most.
I loved Sue’s clarification on LF’s fast ship in the beginning of the recap :))))))))))
I am so sorry to see Summer and Hodor go, and for the first time in the series I cried. Hodor’s storyline was just so powerful! Finally the phrase ‘Hodor’ makes sense :((((
And finally this episode I think kills the ‘white walkers are nice’ theory quite firmly. I do think after this that men will have to fight them and defeat them to survive.
Just seen the episode, one of the very best of the entire series. Enjoyed the long, slow opening scenes too, thought they were given time to breathe and nicely set a counterpoint for the final scene.
Some of the earlier episodes seem to try and cram in too much (understandably given so many story arcs).
A shout out for Kevin Eldon as Play!Ned – just the right note of oddball idiocy he’s well know for here in character acting.
I Think this episode is highly overated. If it had been a horse called Hodor that hit him in the head or something, that would have been more fun. This time travel change the World thing belongs on Star Trek or Legends of tomorrow or something. Yes it is fantasy, but that was just silly. Too silly to make sense. The only bad thing about the series, I love it to Death, So no haters please.
SweetTrix,
Agreed with the conclusion.
No way will the climax of one of the biggest stories, if not the most important, will be resolved with a pact or negotiations.
There will be a battle. And Jon, Dany, Bran, will be the most important players.
Hodor’s death leaves the potential for him to become Coldhands…..after all we know Meera is gonna need help carrying Bran all the way south……..if they are going South.
Sansa not admitting the LF thing to Jon was shame on my part. Having to tell Jon that she somehow reluctantly agreed with LF and went along with that ‘marriage’ is something I am sure she would hate to admit to.
Markus Stark,
I really like this idea! We know from the books that the Red Priest/Priestesses believe they can cure greyscale by burning the afflicted part of the body. However, with Jorah leaving Dany he will not be saved by the Red Priestess who spoke with Varys, so he will perhaps meet another RP on the road, or else in Oldtown. I love that meeting with Sam would bring Sam up to date with what’s going on with Dany.
Great episode and glad I watched it spoiler free! That was basically the first time a big scene came to me unknowingly and it was amazing. Always wondered what Ned’s execution, the Red Wedding, Oberyn’s demise and Jon’s Caesering must have felt like for non-book readers. Only problem is that I can barely remember anything else in the episode, since that last scene was as emotional as the come.
When Summer died I was rather sad (I am not into dogs, but can respect her (Summer is female right?) trying to save Bran’s life again).
When Leaf died it felt worse for some reason (maybe her being the last of the Children and going out in an awesome way trying to protect the world from the golem they created had something to do with it).
When Hodor did his thing…tears in me eyes and that doesn’t happen often. Thank you Kristian Nairn for making that one of the most iconic scenes ever. Thanks to the actor playing young Hodor for doing a good job in a small role.
Thanks to GRRM for being a genius with these kinds of moments. The man may get bogged down into world building, but god damn does he nail those big moments!!! Great job by the GoT team for bringing the man’s vision to a perfect adaptation on screen.
SweetTrix,
I think it’s the Waif’s job to do what she does to Arya – it’s training and it’s not supposed to be easy to lose yourself entirely. The part about it being only poor beggars in the past who have become Faceless People and never before an Entitled Person makes me think that Arya is not going to be able to change herself after all.
Kakakakate,
He deserves Wyllis
Looper,
Ghost is The Great Other. Nymeria is R’hilor. After all the bipeds are dead, they’ll get together (possibly warged by Jon and Arya respectively, for added poignancy) and their cubs will sing (howl?) the Song of Ice and Fire. There’s your bittersweet ending!
Do you think the show will use this opportunity to introduce Cold Hands or maybe even bring Benjen back? Bran and Meera will need some sort of protection.
I don’t think Sansa’s going to betray Jon or has any ill will towards him. She loves and respects him, but she’s learnt that if she wants things to go her way she needs to be the one with more say in how they’re going to proceed. No more of being sidelined while the men in her life call all the shots. She wants power, is that such a bad thing? It’s not like Jon wants it. We’ve been waiting for years for Sansa to have the means to actively participate in the game, and finally she does. She’s learnt to be cautious of trusting anyone, and while she trusts Jon with her life, she may think he’s not as invested in taking back Winterfell and getting revenge as she is. After all, she heard Jon say he’s tired of war and she had to convince Jon to fight Ramsay last week. I think she feels she has to have an army that’s completely loyal to her, not Jon, if she wants to have her revenge, but she’s not going to stab Jon in the back or anything. She’s also a legitimate Stark and a Tully, so she may be thinking that she’ll be more successful in rallying the troops than Jon.
I think Sansa’s going to be as obsessed with revenge as Arya is. I think it’s possible that if she gets an army she’s going to want to march south and wipe out the Lannisters. It’ll be interesting to see how and if Jon and Bran, who can see the big picture, will make the girls realise that the revenge doesn’t really matter.
Ser Jay of the Trident,
I am hoping for Benjen. It will make for some interesting times ahead?
Maisie is great at that, she conveys so much without dialogue just by subtle facial expression. She’s already be a megastar if movies were still silent!
Zoilo,
Indeed, are they going South? Did someone already do a screencap breakdown of the preview? I’ll be tempted to do it myself tonight if not. Curious to that quick series of flashes re: Bran! Also, where will he go now? North or South? Logic says south, but maybe they run into someone who convinces them to go North and rally Giants, Children of the forests, ice spiders…
I gotta call a spade for a spade here as I just finished rewatching the episode. I loved the whole thing, but…that kid playing Hodor’s convulsing acting left a lot to be desired. It was almost laughable tbh, during the live airing I started cracking up and that took me out of it a bit. It’s too bad, he did a great job with Hodor otherwise, really got the mannerisms down.
I really loved the theme Ramen did for the credits, don’t think we’ve heard it before? Does anyone have a link to it on youtube.
Evi,
THIS!
She is not anti-Jon, she’s just not going to sit idly by whilst the North turns to shit. She deserves some retribution. I wonder how the Freys will figure into this, I hope she channels Lady Stoneheart and excecutes them.
Some of the reactions to to Sansa vs. LF on Twitter were fantastic ?.
Amazing episode… Two things, I’ll start with the less offensive:
Did we just see Bran gain the ability to hack into the weirnet via wifi? Was that the significance of him remaining in the Winterfel vision after breaking phsycal contact with the tree?
Second, Hodor was a gentle soul whom everyone had a soft spot for. That being said, I’ve seen numerous posts about how heroic he was for his final act, but does Hodor really deserve credit for any of that? Bran was controlling him. Hodor was paralyzed by fear rocking back and fourth in the corner before Bran warged into him… Also what does that say about Bran? Clearly his motivation was self-preservation which I suppose he can’t be faulted for… but damn, taking over control of your friends mind and then sacrificing him so that you can get away?? Pretty brutal when you think about it…
Han Solo Cup,
was my exact concern on my earlier post.. with that mark and seemingly unknown way of removing it… it seems bran WILL BE ONCE AGAIN responsible for another tragedy.. sigh ? bran if you could only listen to your elders even just for once.. non of this should have happened
Cute notion : )
I wonder if we may yet get to see a more violent play-within-a-play at some point. I’ve long thought that an interesting demise for Cersei and/or Tommen might be a Hamletesque audience-participation battle breaking out during her trial by combat.
White Walter,
GRRM is on record saying we would see the farthest North beyond the wall (aka.. The land of always winter) in the books, don’t know if that will happen in the show. I don’t think budget will allow for too many Giants and Ice Spiders, but we might see some more Children of the Forests. Multiple Giants in the Great War to come would be awesome, but again budget concerns might nix that. I think Hodor = Coldhands now. Great way to keep a beloved character in the show.
This for me is one of the top 3 episodes of GoT. Outstanding!
I’d guessed (as did many others) that the WWs would penetrate the cave due to Brans snooping. Now that he’s been marked by the NK, My guess is that this will also allow the WWs to breach the Wall. Are the CoTF wiped out now? If so, I wonder if that means the magic that’s holding the Wall up is gone/ fading. That CotF reveal though…WOW!
Not sure how LF managed to cross Moat Cailin when its occupied by the Boltons, especially if he’s left a big assed army of Valemen there. Or indeed how Brienne will pass through there.
I don’t have an issue with Sansa lying to Jon – I figured that it was so he wouldn’t be angry at the fact she risked her safety going to Molestown without his knowledge. But I’m guessing now there’s likely more to it than that.
Euron was simply meh for me. Controversial I know, but the guy just didn’t do it for me. I want to stress that I am NOT one of those who wanted to see the guy with an eyepatch, wooden leg etc. But I just found the portrayal unrealistic, and the writing (again) pretty poor here. The drowning was fine though. Funnily enough, I was in Ballymena area on vacation when these scenes were shot but couldn’t get anywhere near the set.
As for Arya’s assignment, Do we know for a fact that it was the other actress who commissioned the FM? Wasn’t this simply Arya’s assumption? I wonder if it’s Cersei who’s behind this; as it links with her previous scene with Qyburn especially if we see a rendition of Lannister incest or the walk of shame next week. I need to re-watch to figure that one out, but that’d make more sense to me. If Arya discovers who’s behind the assignment she’d definitely refuse, proving that she’s still ”someone”, and face the wrath of the FM as a result.
ThroneDorne,
You’re so right. Bran wasted his entire life for that one moment where he could take control of him and sacrifice his life. I wonder if Bran will even acknowledge this. I hope he does.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
the ending track when hodor died?? that was goodbye brother..(the same track that played during bran and rickon’s separation and sansa and jon’s reunion) only a slightly different version
Fuck dubbed versions, honestly. They shouldn’t dub anything that isn’t made for little children.
Agree! Dany is fire, Bran is ice, and Jon is the bridge between the two – fire and ice.
ThroneDorne,
Good point regarding Hodor. In hindsight it might have been rather disrespectful, in addition to being obnoxious, to post Hodor as the first reply in most threads.
ThroneDorne,
I rewatched it and it seems to me bran let go of hodor’s mind way before hodor choose to “hold the door”.. notice how hodor doesnt “hodor” whenever bran is in control of him.. but during that exact time when the young hodor’s eye rolled and collapse the present hodor held the door and was saying hodor at the same time… I don’t think bran will choose to sacrifice hodor so that he could escape.. to me it was hodor’s choice to save bran
darkdadi,
Thanks. Yeah I recognized it as a familiar theme with a different twist on it.
Bran didn’t sacrificed Hodor
He had to see the NK so he would come and Bran could warg into Wyllis to hold the door…so he can have Hodor, to get him there…so he can do it again….
Time travel always messes my brain.
Mihnea,
I hope bran will never again attempt with anymore time travel… I mean its cool yeah.. but pls it only fry our brain with its eternal loop..
Did anyone notice there was no Dragon Horn? Now I wonder how that plot is going to play out in the books.. clearly Yara is following Victarion’s arc.. which it is VERY disappointing that seems Euron won’t play the part as I thought. Pilou Asbæk is such a great actor and I wouldn’t want to see his screen time shortened as we have no idea (book so far) where the heck Euron is doing (beyond plundering the Reach).
and of course, though I saw it coming, and makes sense about Bran/Hodor… mann Summer??? what the heck?!?!!?!? and where the heck is Ghost?
I just really hope they bring Nymeria back once Arya comes back to Westeros.. but as someone pointed out already, it is clear DD reduced the importance of the Direwolves.. so.. not holding much hopes for both 🙁
There were so many good elements in this episode. For me one of the best was Sansa’s meeting with Littlefinger and how she told him off. When she said she could still feel what Ramsay did to her even while she was standing there I got chills and could understand why he was speechless. Her rejection of the Vale army was a clear slap in his face, but for me was also a knee jerk reaction on her part (totally understandable) and he should have said something to her about Robin at that point to stir her emotionally. Something like, “Don’t you want to protect Robin? He is your family.” to make her feel guilty. Come on, Petyr, aren’t you supposed to be the master manipulator?
I also liked when the Waif told Arya that no entitled person had ever before become a Faceless Person – that they had all been poor beggars. I believe this is possibly a hint that Arya will never be able to let go of who she really is. I am living for the day in the far future when she meets Gendry again and he calls her “MY Lady”. Yes, I too am going there. 🙂
The Ironborn scene showed them to be rough and uncouth as usual, but I noticed how changed Theon is! Next to them he seems so refined – but that’s probably the Stark upbringing as well as the torture he received from Ramsay still affecting him. But he has evolved into a much more introverted thinker than the person he was when he ‘took’ Winterfell. I am excited for his and Asha’s (sorry – can’t call her Yara) next adventure – going to seek Dany in Essos and being pursued by Euron.
I don’t think Sansa rejected Jon because she made a Wolf Dress and furs like Ned’s for him! That was such an amazingly sweet gesture! When she lied to him I think it was because she didn’t want to bring her past relationship with Littlefinger into the conversation. I believe she feels ashamed for this. Or perhaps she didn’t want to bring up anything that would remind Jon of Catelyn, her mother. She knew how much Cat rejected Jon and Sansa is feeling like she now wants to reject the Tully part of her. She made the Wolf Dress! She could have made a Tully one, but didn’t.
So about the COTF and the WW’s. This is amazing to think about. Of course we don’t know and theories abound, but I wonder if because the COTF all seem to be women, did they create the WW’s (who are all men) to breed with so they could bear children and carry on their line? But the plan backfired, the WW’s were sterile and turned on the COTF. This would also explain why the WW’s had to use Craster’s baby boys to turn into more WW’s. But why Craster? Because he had some Stark blood? Was the first WW (the Night King) created from a Stark? I hope these questions will be answered by the end of the series. In fact, I hope that ALL the loose ends will be tied up.
Lastly, I love what someone posted somewhere about the direwolves. (Sorry I’ve been reading so much since last night that my memories are fuzzy.) That the death of Summer means the death of summer and that Winter truly is coming and that the death of Lady meant that Sansa’s betrayal of her family led to her abuse by the Lannisters when she tried to become one of them, Nymeria going off on her own was what happened to Arya herself, the killing of Grey Wind mean the murder of Robb was taking place at the same time, and while Jon was dead, Ghost was lying inert on the floor below. Oh no – Shaggydog is dead also.
It was horrible what happened to poor Hodor. I liked someone’s idea that he becomes Coldhands so he could continue to help Bran and Meera but if the wights tore him to bits then he couldn’t, could he?.
Uncle B would be my guess too, with Bran using the Bill and Ted time game to make sure he is where he needs to be exactly when he is needed. He’d then be a shoe in for Lord Commander.
darkdadi,
Well I think the 3ER was right, ”the past is written, the ink is dry”, I don’t think Bran changed the past, he just did what he was always supposed to do….
But I agree, time-travel is always complicated and full of paradoxes!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Theres always something eh 😉
I love the music
I wish I could buy the songs immediately
Watch out… when i made that point yesterday i´ve been attacked and called a troll.
Lets her it from D&D´s own words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Jsj9V_Aqg
Check out their comment at 1:15 min
Beyond the Wall (A): Well, that advanced Bran’s plot more than the last, oh, three seasons (granted, with season five that’s not saying much)? Ellie Kendrick’s Meera has made a lot more of an impression this year than in prior ones, I must say. Though I hope Meera has been keeping up with her full-body workout, if she’s going to be hauling that sled back to the Wall.
The Wall (A-): The scene with Sansa and Littlefinger was great. I guess they’re playing one of the consequences of Sansa’s experience as being severe trust issues? When Brienne asked why she didn’t tell Jon where the information was from, Sansa looked discomfited, like she wasn’t quite sure (we’ll see where this plot goes; the lack of discussion around the Starks’ political situation made it kind of hard for me to figure out exactly what she worried about). Then she gave him his sweet fur coat.
Iron Islands (A-): The Kingsmoot didn’t quite have the scope or grandiosity of the novels (budget was a lot of that, of course, but they already used a lot of Euron and Yara’s good lines from it in previous episode), but it was fairly effective, and since the show has never played kinslaying up as something important, I sort of liked Euron’s nonchalant “yeah, I killed Balon. He sucked.”
Braavos (B+): After last episode it seemed like Arya had been making real progress to becoming “no one”, but in this episode she was pretty much the same, and going to see the play she was pretty obviously still Arya. Of course, the whole point of this story is that Arya can’t be a Faceless Man, but there’s little sense that she’s even at risk of it. Anyway, it seems like the crux of her story this season is going to be the realization that an assassin death cult doesn’t just kill bad guys. The scenes with the players were amusing.
Meereen (B+): Kinvara’s scene was familiar since we’d seen it in the audition videos, but it was well-done.
Dothraki Sea (B+): Brief moment, but nicely done.
Interesting theme with Bran:
When Lady Caitlyn warned him not to climb the tower, he disobeyed , and now 3ER – his current parental figure – warned him re misuse of those flashbacks….but he disobeyed –
1st disobedience – lost his legs which is what sorta strted quest for 3ER. Life changed forever.
2nd disobedience – ended his contact with 3ER (lost him) and changed his life drastically forever.
Also 1st disobedience – lost walking
2nd disobedience – lost Hodor, his substitute to walking.
I am loving Sansa and I’m intrigued but not that surprised by the fan reaction. It is very very very similar to the reaction that a certain group of people have to a certain other character. That is to say, that Sansa right now is becoming much more like Dany was, in Season / book 2. I’ve always felt that Sansas storyline has been set up to follow the same general trajectory as Danys, from victim to player to military leader and Queen. And Sansa now is going through some of the very same things Dany did. She is having some missteps. She doesn’t know who to trust. She knows what she wants but is struggling to determine how to obtain it. She is grateful for her male companions help but she wants to stand on her own and for herself in a world where that’s not the way of things.
I think there are just some people that hate this sort of feminine empowerment story, full stop. For whatever reason they want either an uncomplicated and flawless “badass chick” or for men to take the lead.
Myself, I’m loving it! I love that Sansa is showing some selfishness and a vengeful/sneaky side in addition to just wanting to go home. I like that she’s not sure if he can completely trust even Jon (though she has Brienne who is like her Barristan in the Dany parallel). I love that she can’t decide what to Do with LF even while she’s totally pissed (mirror to Dany and Jorah!). And I love that both women are aching for family and security, but are trying not to let that desire stop them from their goals… Go fully realized female leaders f-yeah!!
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Ugh I really really really really don’t like that 🙁 I I think the Starks have been through enough and to add some drama into that cause a rift between Sansa and Jon is just not necassary at this point in the game 🙁
Please. We have lost many Starks and the wolves and they have all suffered. Just let the remaining Starks come together at this time.
Thank you George and D&d
QueenOfThrones,
A word of caution on the ‘girl power’ meme. Just remember that this is GoT so sooner or later their will be a price paid for that power. I hope it is not Sansa but you never know.
Dee,
LOL. I did love the episode though, and as I recall, you doubted if I was even capable of that.
Right. Criticizing Sansa for lying to a brother whom she forced into this fight is really about people hating ‘feminine empowerment’.
I hear you…but a lot of those disappointed in Sansa are missing the point that its as much Jon’s war as it is hers. Because…
– Ramsay’s threats were to him !!! It seems ppl arent understanding this abt the letter!!!
-Rickon! You think somehow Sansa cares more for him than Jon!?!
-WF is his home. Taken when current occupiers betrayed his beloved brother. Also currently officially loyal to Lannisters – who killed his beloved Ned.
– He wanted to leave the Wall. In that world it’s a perpetual state of either war or treaty/submission – as long as the North is loyal to Boltons Jon etc is effectively an enemy of war…they drove this point home last ep when Sansa said: “We’ll never be safe until we retake the North” & this ep when Jon was moaning abt lack of support (something like “Until we win the war we’re never safe”).
Seriously ppl…it’s his war too!!! Stop overplaying Sansa manipulating him!! She’s not forcing him, circumstances are!! She just helped him see (which after deatg-trauma was needed
QueenOfThrones,
I agree with a lot of your points. While it’s great to see Sansa finally get the story she deserves, my one problem is Jon’s story is connected to hers this season and the writers seem to have forgotten to write for him. I sincerely hope the future episodes prove me wrong, but right now I am feeling let down by this storyline.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I did lol! So I’m a little shocked
But not shocked that you find something to complain about in the midst of an extremely emotional scene hahaha
All that to say – happy you enjoyed it. I give it a 15/10 if I could
ghost of winterfell,
Yes I agree about that.. I fee like he’s been slightly put aside
Not complaining because I love this Sansa
But I’m very biased as he is my favourite
Since Bran is marked by Night’s King. If he passes the Wall that means Night’s King can bring it down, because the same magic that held him from entering the cave of 3ER, is what the Wall was built and protects it.
I kinda got the impression Jaqen was NOT happy with her last bit of training like the Waif went above and beyond what she was suppose to be doing with Arya. Im not sure what or how much of a role the Waif will play after Arya’s training.. I just don’t think they are going to have much time to develop minor characters like hers.. but I DO think that there is going to be a showdown between the two.. and that is something I can’t wait to see. PS.. sorry I had to go to bed so I know this is a LATE response ….
Dee,
The ending was fine, but it wasn’t emotional for me. It just didn’t do it for me for some reason as far as being sad about Hodor. If I had to rank the scenes in that episode, I think I would put quite a few above the last scene (including the earlier Bran flashbacks).
I think some of it had to do with the fact that it got a little convoluted with him warging into present day Hodor while he was in a flashback, and then past Hodor felt the repercussions of it. My head almost explodes just from thinking about that. Also, the fact that Hodor’s whole life was sacrificed, he became a one note simpleton just because Bran needed him to save his ass and then die.
Blah blah blah blah…. anyone who watched it illegally can make up any excuse they want.. and HBO did NOT leak it.. an AFFILIATE of theirs leaked it.. smdh…. tired of ppl making excuses. Watching the episode BEFORE HBO wanted to release it is one thing.. SPOILING it for everyone else who wanted to watch it the RIGHT way was just downright RUDE and INCONSIDERATE…
Sad to see them killing direwolves.
BUT
The Starks downfall coincided with them being born, maybe their deaths signify the Starks uniting again.
Symbolism an all that shizzle…
“Theon’s shortcomings”…
I see what you did there!
(Osha, Summer, Shaggy Dog, Hodor, Jojen dead, Rickon captured. Bran’s fellowship of the three eyed raven is being decimated. Glad it wasn’t George writing Lord of the Rings!)
SerNoName,
Yes I think that there are a certain subset of people that are less willing to accept “mistakes” from a female leader than a male one (in fact this has been proven to be true IRL) and that in aggregate this can explain much of the disproportionate reaction to Dany and now Sansas changing fortunes.
ghost of winterfell,
I see your point and funnily enough I was immediately worried for the opposite when Jon was revived. we just had Sansa start down the route of choosing to fight the previous epi, only to have the focus appear to shift entirely to Jon. I think it’s really interesting that the “power” seems to be shifting back and forth between them, and for very character driven reasons.
Jon is as always the reluctant hero, brooding and uncertain. But he has a growing following who are entirely loyal to him (“they think you’re some kind of GOD”) so he CAN kind of relax right now. Meanwhile Sansa cannot rest on her laurels – she needs more than 2 people on her side to really feel safe. Later when things get more military in nature I fully expect Jon to once again take the “lead”. Teamwork doesn’t mean sharing equally in everything, it means letting each other take the lead as appropriate to the task at hand.
I do hope that Sansa admits what’s up with LF and the Vale and riverlands armies to Jon in private because it’s one of those things that in a drama will always come back to put a rift between characters if she doesn’t. But otoh I actually like when leaders have to make difficult choices where there’s no obvious (from their perspective) correct answer. We know that Jons followers are trustworthy but Sansa does not.
That’s not true. You can just buy Sky Online tickets for 2 or 3 months, and there are even special cheap offers. Did it myself, so this is the first year I’m watching GoT legally and without torrents 😉 .
I sentence thee to 100 hours of “Gender Studies”!
Am I the only person that thinks that the writers are setting up the storyline to make people think that Sansa will somehow betray Jon and wants Winterfell for a “real stark” but then as the story unravels we find out that what she did was for some other reason, like bringing down Littlefinger? I feel like with GOT you can’t take much at face value. I also think that the lie is going to come out eventually but it’s not going to cause some major stark rift like some people are thinking especially when the motivation behind it is explained.
Show Theon & Yarsha are stronger than books. The rest of the Iron Dorne plot is shaping up to be weaker than already-loony book stuff. I understand that ymmv, but for me “let’s go murder them” had me rolling my eyes like my 12-year old.
Other than that, my therapist hasn’t cleared me to discuss the rest of the episode…
UUUUUUUUUUUUGHHHHH …… Im DONE with this kind of thinking… if you Don’t GET IT then nothing I will say will make you understand.
Markus Stark,
Probably spoilers. One person who spoiled this season was spot on so far.
SerNoName,
Forced? More like convinced. Naturally his disillusionment after his resurrection would render him lost, but Ramsay declared war on Jon, Rickon is his brother, and Sansa gave him the wake-up call he needed.
Jon Snow will get his chance to shine in the next few eps, I’m confident he’ll have a rallying speech, it’ll be him front and centre in the battle.
I can’t wait til the next few eps unfold, it’ll be unpredictable!
Ice Spider,
What are you talking about ??
darkdadi,
Sorry darkdadi, I must have missed your comment earlier but I did go back and read it ?. From where I’m sitting it seems like Bran is suffering from a case of affluenza…
You sir obviously have NO idea what it takes to write, produce, film, and create a work of art and then have that piece of artwork pirated… and like I’ve said in more than one comment about imbeciles like you who think its ok to pirate someones hard work then you are not worth talking to.. so please move on to another’s posts/msg’s. Im done with ignorant ppl.
Ice Spider,
I pay HBO to watch GOT. I paid for it already when watching the episode. It’s HBO’s fault the episode leaked early, so they should be taking actions to control their branches instead of blaming people that watched the episode. It was everywhere the episode leaked and before getting more spoilers, because RIP Summer and RIP Hodor was everywhere I preferred to watch the episode. I also watched the episode premiere to don’t hurt the ratings and for a better quality. I don’t blame myself at all. Shame on HBO for his inability to control their own staff and branches.
The play also made Cersei out to be a sweet golden heroine, Joffrey to be a saint, and Ned to be a stupid, crude, self-serving usurper. I’m fairly sure Arya wouldn’t trust anything that was said in the play. I’m surprised she was able to sympathize with Essie Davis because of how much the play debased Ned’s character, but I’m thrilled that she was able to separate the person from the play.
Speaking of the troupers, I don’t buy Arya’s theory that the young actress is the one who hired a Faceless Man. How would a young actress get that obscene amount of cash? And wouldn’t she rather spend it on buying her own troupe?
QueenOfThrones,
Jon has already done enough leading, so it’s good that Sansa is showing initiative, I don’t mind this. But that does not mean that he should not get any character development. Thefr are other ways to develop a character than making him a leader. He is facing so many issues now, mentally, I wish the show would at least take some time exploring that. Jon and Mel have not had one conversation after she got him back. This was supposed to be such a big moment in the story, at least in terms of his character, and what? The entire thing is just shoved aside! Why does Mel think he is the tptwp?
Jon could be mellower than Sansa and still get some character development, but this is just not happening. And the whole North storyline is falling short for me for this reason.
Sean C.,
Great “mini-review” of yours, I do believe you´re perfectly recapturing the feeling most viewers had on the respective scenes. (The “most” is derived from the reviews of the episode which are available at the moment.)
The only thing I would rate slightly higher is the Kinvara-scene, I thought it was hitting home on so many points. In Meereen, the arrival of a new player with an own agenda will elevate this storyline to a huge extent since it has been meandering without too much of a purpose (besides keeping up the status-quo) for quite some time. Said arrival of Kinvara could mark the return of the more politically elaborate GoT of the first 1-4 seasons in the place least expected, Meereen.
Meereen had drawn quite too many connections to our real world for its own good in season 5, making it feel like hitting viewer´s over the head with these problems, something that was a major point of criticism during the season 5 reviews. Yet when it wasn´t drawing connections to present-day, its plot felt stretched out over too many episodes while it basically could have been told in 4 episodes if the dialogue would have been more on point. The Meereenese plot had always profited from the exotic setting letting cultures/mindsets collide which is the exact reason why Tyrion´s arrival was definitely the strongest part about the arc last season.
In contrast, it´s all the more astonishing how in one little dialogue, both Varys´ and especially Tyrion´s potential …shortsightedness and shortcomings… are getting subtly questioned while depicting this new player as a double-edged sword that is neither good nor bad. As it is now, this one dialogue alone already established all the motives and future conflicts within Meereen´s elite while giving hints that both Varys and Tyrion may actually fail in Essos or dropped their game a bit. It´s already more contrasted than the decisions which had to be made in season 5 and it leaves the viewer with a strange feeling in the stomach, knowing that this may be the best or the worst maneuver Tyrion has ever made, especially since it could cause a rift with Varys. That´s just praiseworthy writing and deserves and A imo (even though we roughly knew already how it would turn out.).
Besides that, I completely agree with you, especially on your thoughts about the Kingsmoot and that it was an outstanding scene for what was possible with the budget of the series. All those Walkers, Dragons and Wolves don´t animate themselves.
I didn’t watch the leak, but I read the details. When I read “Hold the door”= Hodor, my first thought was “c’mon, that’s just dumb”. Then I watched the episode. As past and present Hodor portrayed the beginning and the end of “Hodor”, my heart broke for the first time watching this show. Oh sure, there have been sad moments in the show, but even now as I type this and see that young man on the ground shouting “Hold the door!” portraying his decent into madness, my eyes well up.
If anyone ever tells you the best thing about this show isn’t the phenomenal cast, kick them in the crotch. My God, Game of Thrones, what are you doing to us??
Antilles58,
I like your comment. One thing to note – there are other ways for Tully army to get to the north without going through the Twins. The Twins just happen to have the easiest path to send an army into the north, but there are other ways.
Dee,
I agree. I love Sansa too and I would love this storyline so much, if there was some balance with Jon, which is sadly missing, so far at least.
PJ,
Some good discussion points
I’ve been holding out for Nymeria, from what I can tell her “wolf Dreams” and even her warging ability is what keeps her from ever truly being “no one”
Like the Kingsmoot, they’ll keep the fledgeling warging abilities of Jon and Arya on ice firstly to obviously emphasize Bran and secondly when it serves a thematic point (keep in mind they have to be explored differently in a visual medium)
Eg the Greyjoy Kingsmoot was timed to coincide with the “Khalsmoot”. In this case it was quite fascinating for me to watch the drowning ceremony but obviously he’s then been revived but between the two there’s a big theme there about death and re-birth, eg Euron immersed in seawater and Dany in flames and this sets things up for Euron being the main antagonist to Khaleesi conqueror Dany
As a book reader after reading Damp-Hair Greyjoy go on and on and on about no “godless man being allowed to sit the Sea Stone chair” this was rather intriguing
But throw this in with Jon as well, having just been resurrected too.
ghost of winterfell,
I agree with you. Since the resurrection it has fallen a little short in that sense… I hope it changes , I want a convo with Jon and the fact that he was brought back – deep conversation say with Mel or someone…. That would be enough for me
Have only done my initial watch, but so much to take out of it, eg reading between the lines on that Braavos play, fascinating that the Sansa actress supposedly wants the Cersei actress killed which further my personal perspective that Sansa is the younger Queen who strikes Cersei down, but also the fact that Arya would rather kill the Sansa actress…
The Jon and Sansa stuff is interesting, obviously I think they are merging to plotlines which is a very fine juggling act but it was fascinating to see Melisandre completely quiet and in the background, still lacking in some confidence and obviously they seemed to be slagging her off in Meereen
What’s interesting about Jon/Sansa is that they are having to juggle their whole “Female power” theme with the “bastard power” theme also. Obviously these are directly entwined in terms of Dorne now
As for “bastard power”, watch this space as far as Gendry perhaps being put into power over House Baratheon in the reach perhaps? Either way they have to tie that loose end up, even if he is just brought in Osha style to get unfortunately killed
My suspicion is that he is the secret Tommen told Cersei, eg Olenna has approached High Sparrow for annulment and using Gendry as evidence. We see that Jaimie and Cersei march right in and put a plan in place using Tyrell troops to face-off against the High Sparrow, plausibly to drive a wedge between the two so conditions don’t exist for annulment
Why is that? Sam also killed a white walker with dragon glass, and he’s most definitely not Targaryen. Sam was the one who gave the dragon glass to Bran’s group in the first place, actually. So I don’t see how this proves anything at all.
While I applaud your ethics in not spreading “spoilery” news.. that wasn’t the case for the vast majority of people who watched the “leaked” show. I really don’t care what the rationale was for watching it was/is. The fact is that people have NO restraint at all in these days and if they can they will do things amoral and justify in their minds however they see fit. I don’t give a RATS ass (as was said to me in another post) if HBO leaked it. Does that mean you are REQUIRED to watch it and then tell everyone else what happens? I heard about the leak and had to literally stay off the internet all day long to keep from being spoiled on the show. My choice -but I would like to think it was the best choice. I have no idea if a moderator watched the leaked show or not, nor does that make me any less adamant about how I feel about the matter. Just bc they are a moderator and they watched the leaked episode is suppose to make me feel like it was acceptable? I hardly think so. I explained my reasons for disliking the way it went down yesterday and I could care less if you agree or not. But I know one thing.. all of the actors and people who worked their ASSES off over the course of the last year to make this show what it is and to try and give us a quality show didn’t deserve to have that hard work spoiled before it was intended to be. Last time I respond to this argument. It was wrong plain and simple and if you and everyone else want to rationalize it then so be it.
This seasons episodes ranked
5, 4, 3, 2, 1
crabber son,
Preaty much my rankings as well.
One other thing, I recently re-watched the first couple of episodes from S1 on a tripped out Starks at Winterfell nostalgia run
Not sure how far they’ll go in the show, but Robin shooting those arrows awry was a lot like the introduction to Bran way back in Season 1, and Wyllis/Walder/Hodor seizures have me thinking of Sweetrobins seizures a bit more deeply
We are getting set up for Euron to being an antagonist to Dany, I am very curious as to whether we are also getting set up for Sweetrobin as an antagonist to Bran?
Can go a bit deeper, in the books I expect Sansa to be something of an antagonist to Jon actually as my book theory revolves around a North/RL splot of Robbs Kingdom…
I see a lot of people slag Sansa off but I expect her to be the second most powerful female character after Dany perhaps in the entire books (and perhaps show)
A Shout out needs to go to Hodor actors young and old. They both knock that scene out of the park!
A brother who she NEVER ever accepted or cared about. A lame ‘sorry’ and a stark-themed cloak will not make us believe that this attitude of hers is history.
So comparing Jon to the other bastard Ramsay and keeping important information secret from him (after making him fight for her totally ignoring his state of mind after his death experience) fits into this picture.
Oh yeah< I didn't realise it happened but massive thumbs down for anyone who watched the leak
To a degree as a non U.S person I can understand why some people pirate after the official U.S airing because of stone age international TV scheduling in the Internet age, but when they are largely airing it all at the same time internationally this is rather dissapointing to see as it undermines the ratings and the budget allowance etc for future seasons ultimately
I had one of my favourite shows that was released at a similar time to GoT cancelled because of poor U.S ratings, thank goodness GoT could continue despite the piracy
Not to mention, in the Open Chat people from all over the world share the live experience of watching and making vague comments etc, so that shared experience gets undermined by this type of thing as well
It really was a fantastic episode, wasn’t it. Absolutely devastating ending though, but one that we’ll never ever forget.
I’d like to point out one or two elements that I didn’t like for balance, but wasn’t any. It was a splendid episode.
Also please don’t make it a rule to show cocks on GoT (unless there is a good reason for it). Did we really need the gratuitous shot in Braavos. I know there is far too much female nudity in the show, but the solution is to cut that down not including shots like that.
Ghosts Lunch,
Interesting thought about the Cersei/Sansa-shift in Arya´s storyline, I was intrigued by that, too. Hopefully, this play just mirrors the past and isn´t in any way linked to the future, at least not in the Arya killing Sansa-way. Yet to be honest, i don´t think it is. However, it rather certainly should just serve as a metaphor that Arya is about to make the realization that thinking in “black/white” will not lead her anywhere and that persons that may seem guilty or even innocent cannot be so easily pushed in these categories once one gets a glimpse behind the curtains.
Maybe she can learn to let her grudges go away as time goes by and find a life outside of revenge. That she will never be a faceless woman at least, is rather obvious after the play and Jaqen´s remark before she went off on her mission. The question is, will he let her go willingly or will he have to kill Waif-noone to let death pay for Arya´s life?
Morning has come and I still am reeling ! I am angry now and must be going through the stages of grief. Why Summer! Loved that pup in the books and was pleased he was there in the show. Hodor, I am gonna name my next dog after him.
Ice Spider,
HBO won’t fine anyone, people who watch it illegally tend to get annoyed with watching it illegally, so they suck it up and by HBO for 3 months. HBO actually encourages subscribers to give out their HBO GO information because studies have shown that a strong % of those people sign up for HBO eventually. Any spoilers aren’t disgusting. The stuff Ramsay did to Sansa is disgusting, spoilers just suck if you don’t want them.
??? In regards to? Sorry just got on and was responding to others posts re: watching the leaked episode. Just irritated that folks want to rationalize it and make it sound like someone TWISTED their arms to watch it. The excuses are immature. Pure and simple it is selfishness that made them watch it. If I can stay away from the internet for ONE day then everyone else can too.. but my point is that I really think it is a slap in the face to the show runners, all the actors who worked their asses off, and the production teams. They work so hard and I just feel very strongly they didn’t deserve to have their work hacked. Idk if that is what you are asking about?
Can I ask a question. Now that Bran has lost access to the tree for “Past visions”, will we ever find out about Ned saving his sister from the tower? Is she giving birth is Ned claiming that baby as his own etc etc ….
Ice Spider,
I was hahaha 🙂
I see your point 🙂
What Ramsey has done to almost anyone he has encountered sucks. People who want to spoil the show for us who want to respect the process are just selfish creeps.
Just watched Inside the Episode for Hold the Door Hodor
This must be one of the most saddest things, he’s probably the only person in the entire show and even books who is pure of heart as it were, and dies doing the simplest yet noblest of things in simply allowing his friends to escape
In terms of trying to “reverse engineer” into the books, seems this may be that trapdoor thing on the Cave roof that was mentioned. Also seems to be an inverse twin scene/passage to where he is the only person who could move that boulder away from the front of the Winterfell crypts
So it is Hodor who allows them to escape from the catacombs in two instances…
Have to say also, when reading the passage about Melisandres flame vision about a Cave with lights with all the lights going out, I actually thought it was the CoTF cave and was quite sad, though later on when I went on the Boards and Forums etc that everyone seemed in agreement it was Hardhome. Now I am wondering again…
BESIDES the fact that everyone in the show has had to keep their mouths shut for a year regarding the storylines.. if they can do it so can everyone else.. just makes me angry the stupid excuses ppl are making as to why they watched it before it was aired here in the US.
Jack Bauer 24,
The past is already written the ink is dry.
The last scene was a fulfilment of what has already taken place. The 3 eyed Raven knew it already. ” I’ve been watching all of you, your entire lives”. That’s why he took Bran to that specific time and place to create Hodor who experienced his own Death. That’s why it was so traumatic, Bran effectively linked the past Hodor to the present Hodor.
I don’t think Bran is changing past events, he is part of past events already. Only the future can be changed now.
Great episode, great story.
Jack Bauer 24,
Dude, be patient. Still half a season left and I am guessing if Bran can touch a tree he can warg into the past. he already did that before he met 3ER. More visions to come I bet!
the part that brought a tear to my eye is Danerys saying sorry to Jorah. My respect for her was fading, but her apology was heart wrenching.
*sniff*
Yeah, show Jon is good for only giving rallying speeches and swinging a sword. In the books, he is the one who makes alliances between the North and the Karstarks, convinces the mountain clans of what he is doing, tells Stannis how to win over the North, convinces the wildlings to fight against the Boltons etc. In the books, Jon is an average fighter, but a very good administrator and strategist. There is nothing of that Jon on the show. On the show Sansa and Davos seem to be doing all the talking. I am sure we will get action! Jon soon enough.
Markus Stark,
Happy to discover 2 more feel my dissatisfaction with the Kingsmoot and the Euron portrayal. Have now watched the episode 3 times and while some fine moments from Asha and Theon and beautiful cinematography during the baptism scene. the moment Euron and his dialogue comes in, I’m tempted to fast forward the scene so that this remains a terrific episode.
“Where are my niece and nephew? ..Let’s go murder them!” (sigh)
Ice Spider,
Get off the damn internet when shit like this happens. What new information about Game of Thrones could you learn at this point that wouldn’t be a spoiler. Yes, the people who put spoilers on the internet suck, what else is annoying is the people who whine about it. QUIT GOOGLING GAME OF THRONES AND EXPECTING TO NOT BE SPOILED about anything. I get your point but the whining and how niave one could be to assume they won’t be spoiled when basically this show is the most spoiled show that I can remember. Get off of it!
They have to tread carefully, any past event now affected by Bran means that event in the future must take place. In which case Bran has no free will. Unless he doesn’t interfere with anything else in the past.
What I mean is for Hodor to of been Hodor for most of his life means that moment holding the door against the wights would of been destined to happen all along. In which case any other past event that Bran has been involved with will mean other events linked to it will be pre destined.
I’m going to have a alcoholic drink. I was always going to!?!
Yes, I think so. Certainly BR knew that Bran was what happened to Hodor because of the look he gives Bran when Bran discovers talking Wyllis.
So in Bran-o-Vision past, present and future really do exist simultaneously.
GoT proves Einstein right!
On a light note, have to say the actor playing Tormund is doing a fantastic job with the looks
I actually burst out laughing this episode at the hilarious goofiness, it even moved Brienne from awkwardness to groaning
“And that man with the beard…” lol again
Bran can greensee without the cave and even without trees now, as he was doing when Meera was dragging him off last night, with Hodor holding the door. And filming spoilers tell us this isn’t the last we’ll see of flashbacks.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Bran didn’t take control of Hodor there: Hodor was caught in a temporal tautology. It was BR, not Bran, who setup the loop: and BR might already have seen that this did/would happen.
Not at all. All characters are open to criticism for their actions. Sansa’s earlier mistakes were attributed to her naivety. Later she did not have the power to affect change. This is the first time she actually makes an active choice and what does she choose to do? Lie and withhold information from Jon.
This is the thing. Sansa fans have been clamoring for Sansa to have ‘agency’. Well with agency, characters actually do things that can be analyzed and criticized on their own merit. That’s why characters like Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran etc. have been criticized for many of their decisions. Sansa now joins that club. No more excuses. She has the power to make decisions and those decisions will be judged on their merits.
The problem comes when any criticism of female characters is described as ‘hate’ and terms like sexism and misogyny is just thrown around randomly. Like your knee jerk response of calling a discussion about Sansa on here as ‘hating feminine empowerment’. What ridiculous nonsense.
Jack Bauer 24,
Eek! I never thought about that. Having the most elite group of assassins in the universe after you forever might be a little intimidating.
To everyone confused about why the Ironborn would follow Euron: think about Donald Trump
Markus Stark,
That’s a good theory and path. :o)
I just saw him as heading to Qarth and Quaithe but I like yours better.
QueenOfThrones,
I don’t believe that’s really an issue. We are an enlightened society. I think it depends entirely on who the woman is. Personally, I don’t root for a female character who’s becoming a powerful, dominant force simply because she’s a female character. I kind of have to like her, you know, as a person. Same with any male character. Also, much of the complaint stems from Jon fans who don’t wish to see him hurt again. We all have our favorites.
Markus Stark,
I don’t really call this time travel. But I understand why some would. If they do scenes written like this then they can do as many as they want!
Being part of a mummer’s troupe would be great cover for a FM, therefore my theory is JH want’s that actress dead so they can have her face, then the Waif takes her place and the troupe heads for Westeros.
No doubt that Arya is not a girl but a Stark after watching her reactions to the play; brilliant acting by all involved playing the mummer’s.
Open letter to D&D, I think that penis scene is not what all the female fans were wanting when they demanded more male nudity, I believe they wanted to see Daario’s, Jon’s and Jaime’s male appendages.
If you are going to watch it illegally (and many people do, for many reasons), I doubt you are going to feel any need to delay watching until it is released legally if a leak occurs.
Btw, there are a number of countries where it is impossible to watch GoT legally in a timely manner, and many others where you can only get it as part of absurdly expensive bundles. American residents have pretty much no excuse – HBO is $15/mo, max, and that is entirely fair and affordable. But billions of other people have no option remotely similar in cost to that, or literally have no legal options.
Funkwalrus,
Well he did say they would conquer Westeros with Dany’s help…to me that seams a resonable choice, especially for the more crazy and warmongerring Ironborn..
It’s clear he didn’t get the support of everyone, after all quite a big chunk of them left with Yara.
GameofHype,
Bran warged into Wylis (Hodor of the past) to access current Hordor. The mind of the creature being warged into (Hodor) is pushed aside as the warg (Bran) is taking control. Bran has to stay in him mind as long as possible to hold the door as long as he can. Give props to Issac Hempstead as he coveys the hurt he feels for forcing this on Hodor when he realizes he is to blame. As current Hordor dies, his mind dies as well, leaving nothing to return to the mind of Wylis.
Time is not a river. It is an ocean
SerNoName,
Yeah this is some fair points, he’s a competent Castle trained swordsman but he did a great job in ensuring he took a ward from each of the Wildling families and made them pay, he cut deals with the Iron Bank etc not to mention made the tough choices regarding the swapping of Mance and Gilly’s baby and of course it took a lot of guts to defy the King-claimant and execute the deserter “Mance” during his burning which is a political gesture about the prominence of the Night’s Watch in Westerosi society of no small proportions. We can tie this into the Pink Letter in the sense that it would not be acceptable for a Lord to threaten the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch personally
It doesen’t seem fashionable, like Briennes meanderings through the RL but it is all highly relevant, eg in Briennes case those meanderings explore the aftermath and effects and atrocities of war on the people and how it leads to High Sparrow radicals etc and in Jons case his administrative skill is largely about rising above institutionalised prejudices and doing the optimum thing for all concerned, eg preventing the Wildlings being turned into Wights
My 15 yo son (who turned his folks on to the books when he devoured then when he was 11) sighed audibly when he heard the actor announce “I’m Urine Greyjoy.”
The only thing keeping it from becoming Iron Dorne for me is pretty awesome Theon & Yarsha
Bring Back Benjen,
That assumes he had the free will to disobey. Those who believe in a circular time loop would seem to believe that he was predestined to fall, predestined to visit the NK on his own, predestined to create Hodor so he could be saved.
As they could not show his book vision which occurs immediately before his waking up from the fall on the show
I could exhaust myself trying to steer a course between how much of his arc was predestined and how much resulted from the free will of his own decisions, (was it predestined that Jamie would push him, did the 3ER create the situation so he would be outside that window, or would some other event have triggered his powers, etc.) but philosophers and religious thinkers has debated that for 2,000 years without resolution. The show appears to be taking somewhat more of an Augustinian view of predestination.
ThroneDorne,
LOL… O Shit … That is so Brutal and I think you have hit something most of us missed!!!
Bran’s a Wanker! lol
HereBeDragons,
It would be a dull world if we all thought the same to quote an old saying HBD but in all honesty I wasn’t that struck on the Iron Islands in ADWD so I don’t mind its sub-plot being streamlined.
More generally, did we actually see Summer’s body? Though not seeing the body doesn’t necessarily mean anything (Stannis) – though if a certain gravedigger theory is true…..
DRLOW,
The events that happened in bran’s final flashback actually happened. Since hodor was Hodor in the cave. However, the 3ER had to take Bran to show him that so that Bran can see the negatives to what he can do. So it appears the 3ER can change some history in some sense, but not outrageously.
Ice Spider,
Ok, you seem to have a lot of (unjustified) anger on this, that’s your issue.
But I stress again that I did not reveal ANYTHING, and to say that the vast majority of folks here (or wherever) were spoiling you is totally false- in fact it’s a complete lie.
And in any case- how do you know this? If, as you say, you’d stayed offline all day yesterday then how could you possibly have known that the vast majority of us were trying to spoil others? The fact is, you WERE online.. You were posting here left, right and centre for most of the day (wagging your finger at many of us I might add). So in fact, what you said is a lie on several counts.
It’s your right to be online of course, but please don’t preach at us and pretend to be some kind of injured party when you’re not… as this in no way stopped you going about your daily business.
Mihnea,
I did like that part better than the blindly follow Euron KM of the books. Once they removed the
IMO it would have not made sense for the majority of the IB to follow Euron as that appeared to be the deal-clincher in the books
Could Sansa be playing the game in a way to let Jon and his Northern led army go fight the Bolton’s and inflict as much damage as possible while the Vale army lays in wait to swoop in the last minute and save the day? I don’t see Sansa as a master tactician but she has learned from one of the best in LF. Possibly she goes behind LF’s back directly to sweet robin to gain the Vale army by telling him what LF did to his mom?
No question Meera and Jon are the children of Lyanna and Rhaegar.
although the books are much different to this point I think the show will go full circle that Bran is/was 3 eyed raven. He knew what was going to happen and placed Bran/himself into position to fix things knowing that some things would have to be repeated. He has lived this life before. Will this version of Bran be the one to solve the puzzle.
Something tells me that the death of Dany and her dragons will be the sacrifice to be made to stop the WW and the army of the dea.
Bring Back Benjen,
After the sequence with Hodor, I wonder if these were warnings at all. Maybe they weren’t. Maybe they were orchestrated by 3ER to get Bran where he needed to be, to fulfill the timeline requirements. Maybe 3ER’s original plan was to train Bran properly, then reveal his role gradually and have him take over. But Bran got to that moment with Hodor far faster than 3ER intended, which is why he tells Bran he wasn’t ready to take over the position, but it was too late.
I’m beginning to wonder about this now.
Ice Spider,
I should have long been in bed myself … too wound up from the episode to sleep 🙂
Did anyone else get the feeling that Sansa might be pregnant with Ramsay’s child? The way her dress stands open when she talks to Littlefinger and how she still feels in her body what Ramsay did to her….
Or it could be just a weird shaped dress and the bruises he left.
Lou,
There are other trees … and in time he may not need trees … I believe that he is supposed to be the greatest greenseer of all far surpassing the 3ER
RIP Wyllis RIP Summer
Longtime lingerer, first time poster
“The past is written, the ink is dry,” and time is a circle. To borrow from Peter Pan, and Battlestar Galactica, “All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.” Bloodraven took Bran to WF, to ensure everything happens as it should. Hodor had to be created for Bran to open his third eye, and his noble sacrifice was gut wrenching. I’m a book reader who has at times skipped multiple chapters to follow one or more characters. I struggled a long with A Feast for Crows. ADWD Began to lay seeds of multiple characters converging. I loved how Season 6 of the show picked up that thread immediately. The North storlyline is by far the most interesting and integral to the future of the show to the point I’m now bored with Cersei, bored with Dany, bored with Tyrion, bored with the Ironborn – you’re pirate vikings, we get it, well done.
All that said, the performances are top notch, and to me, the first five episodes of this season are the best the show has ever been.
Jansa will not be shattered, despite that cunniving twat Littlefinger, I do think he’s actually working against them now, we know the Blackfish barely has the strenght to keep Riverrun let alone depart for a Northern campaign. Even if he was he’s not going to rush into Jon’s war, in the book he had a snarky comment about him, when Jamie asked BF to take the black.
Jorah clearly going to be cured by either Drogon or the new Red Priestess, Iain Glenna and Emelia Clarke are so in sync.
I hope King’s Landing likes Nelly, because it’s about to get hot in therrr.
Forgive the intro and rant, I’m a devout Jon Starkgaryen believer, I swear this in the light of gods and men, by the old gods and the 7.
Nah, I think she was just saying to herself, ‘Dammit, I’ll never be able to eat spicy Dornish food again after all that!’
So you hate people that are partly responsible for the success of the show ?
Without illegal downloads, dvds and blue-ray of the 1st season wouldn’t have sold as much in a lot of Countries including France.
Without those sales, no french network would have accepted to pay for the rights of GoT and we would have had to wait 1 year for each seasons to pop on netflix, by then nobody cares because you’re already spoiled if you have a social life.
We know that GoT makes a lot of money from foreign rights, i’m not sure it would without a lot of help from those “pirates”, at least at the beginning (and now the show is so successful that you can’t really hurt it).
Ghosts Lunch,
My suspicion is that he is the secret Tommen told Cersei, eg Olenna has approached High Sparrow for annulment and using Gendry as evidence
This would make me very happy
Darkrobin,
Is their not another ‘weir tree’ in the WF Godswood?
Bastard of the Bluegrass,
Welcome to the Wall!! Keep posting, don’t be shy!
I was a lurker too, before, it’s the first couple of comments that are a bit harder afterwards it’s easy! 🙂
Now that Bran is out of the cave, what does that mean re flashbacks? Would he have to find a weirwood tree?
Littlefinger made clear that Sansa had an army to herself (independent of Jon’s), and left reminding her that he was still her “half-brother.” Meaning that she should not afford him the full allegiance she would afford a “full” siblings such as Rob. If there came a point where they had to fight for power, she would have an army at her disposal to outmatch Jon’s and a better claim to the throne being that she’s not a bastard. When Davos reminded her that Jon wasn’t a stark, she showed her cards by affirming that she “Is.” So, when she lied at the war table, she used Jon’s ignorance of her source as a strategic advantage. exposing her source would only make Jon question why she would meet with Littlefinger after everything he’s done to her and their family, which in turn would make him question her every motive for going to war; None of which, helps Sansa Stark. At that moment she used Jon as a means to her end, (much like what Littlefinger did to her and does to everyone) and affirmed the existence of an army that would virtually only be loyal to her. She sees the throne as a possibility because her brother is a bastard and wouldn’t be worthy of it, if their efforts proved fruitful. Remember, she told Jon she would take back Winterfell (and more) with or without him.
However, Brienne asking her why she lied to Jon, reminded her of the mistake she made as a child regarding her treatment of Jon. She finally sees him the way she always should have, her brother. And the question made her aware of the small seed of mistrust that littlefinger imparted upon her before he left, that he hoped would create enough space betwixt her and Jon’s renewed kinship for an insider such as himself to sway her leanings. She’s aware of littlefingers games now and destroyed the seed of doubt by giving Jon the same cloak their father wore with the stark sigil. This act reaffirms their renewed bond as just, brother and sister, no halvsies, no air in bewteen. She will take the back seat and not play games and risk losing her brother. She wont take back winterfell, “they” will take back winterfell. The same way Jon didn’t tell her where he was going after the watch, but where “We” (he and Sansa) were going. She will help Jon ascend to prominence maybe not a stark, but as the heir to Eddard Stark.
ALso:
Ygritte is Jon’s first love. Ygritte has red hair. Sansa has red hair. Sansa was under Cersei for a while and saw how she wielded power over Jaime. Maybe, just maybe; we see incest in house stark, or Sansa’s attempt to turn a renewed sister-brother relationship into something more perverse if they get closer to the iron throne, as a means of holding power. That’s if she goes down the Littlefinger road. *Kanye Shrug*
Ginevra,
Well, that would provide parallels between Arya and Jon, Daeny and Tyrion: and stories are built in the parallelisms among protagonists.
Apollo,
No kidding! That is all I have read from this person. They are the only one complaining and whining. I saw minimal spoilers if any. If you are going out of your way to find them just to prove they are there then you will find spoilers EVERY WEEK. This has been the case for about 4 years for this show so you know what I do, I keep my happy ass from googling Game of Thrones on the weekends. Ice Spider Instead of acting all high and mighty why don’t you quit searching for the information just to call people out. I agree that the spoilers do suck, but the fact that it is so obvious that you were searching online for stuff and got spoiled the day of the show being aired (which happens every week) doesn’t make me feel bad for you. It is right up there with the people who complain about spoilers when they click on an article that has the word “Spoiler” in the title.
Jon and Sansa debate is going to be interesting
Same with the Kingsmoot
I am applying a wait and see, would have been nice to have a Dragon horn plus was weird seeing him coming out admitting he killed Balon, plus Damp-Hair not properly ID’s and no eyepatch which makes me consider Euron with a sinister edge which the show Euron is visually lacking
On the other side they’ve got a guy who resembles Theon so you can plausibly consider them family, secondly the scene was greatly cut and the Drowning Coronation ceremony was great.
The actor played a nut nicely on the Bridge but once Coronated he did a fantastic job of conveying a sense of deep menace
Still in the Wait and See camp but I have no major issues yet, eg we didn’t get it previously but its timing makes sense now as it lines up with Dany’s Khalsmoot
Ginevra,
Agreed. But he did seemed surprised regarding the timing.
Finally, we get a great episode this season. We were certainly overdue.
The Bran sequences were the best the show has done this year, hands down. It is also either the best thing D&D have come up with or a genius move by GRRM, more likely the latter (in which case, the adaption was nailed, credit to all involved). Quite a few people have been chatting about various Hold-the-Door theories lately, but I never saw one as complex or fulfilling as what we got…
The Ironborn scene was pretty good, though Yara and Theon are going to have one hell of a head start given that it takes weeks in the best case to build a seaworthy ship (and longer if you have supply-chain issues). I am not quite sure, but I suspect this will turn into another modest plot hole, but one that is small enough to be ignored. I am glad we got Euron’s drowning. I actually wanted that to happen to Theon because his TV character is a bit too wimpy for my tastes, but better late than never.
And Sansa, dear Sansa. Thank you, thank you for calling out Idiot Littlefinger. If the writers are going to plot a hole that big, they may as well dive right in. Was that scene supposed to make me laugh? Though Sansa had better learn real quick that you don’t shrug off gift armies, even if the leader is a dick.
Both the Essos scenes worked for me, except for a couple of Tyrion’s lines which came off kind of flat and a little over-the-top creep-out expressions by Varys. Emilia nailed it in this episode, one of my favorites of hers, actually.
Arya’s scene was ok, but I think many people agree, it is time for her to move on. This scene planted the seeds of how that will happen, so I think it is safe to assume that we will be getting some movement here this season.
Jon Snow’s Mother,
It has been months since Ramsay last did anything with Sansa. She should be heavily showing pregnancy.
What Sansa is describing is what many victims of sexual abuse describe long afterwards. People suffering from other sorts of traumatic injuries (particularly burns and near drowning) report similar physical “memory.”
Shaz,
Who will tell Sansa about what LF did to Ned? Basically all the people involved are dead or in Kings Landing. I don’t think Sansa and LF are done at all. NOT EVEN CLOSE!
Leecats,
Good question! We can only speculate, but my guess is that he will be able to use other weir wood trees.
Chad Brick,
The Ironborn scene was pretty good, though Yara and Theon are going to have one hell of a head start given that it takes weeks in the best case to build a seaworthy ship (and longer if you have supply-chain issues). I am not quite sure, but I suspect this will turn into another modest plot hole, but one that is small enough to be ignored.
Especially given that in the books, the lack of wood on the Iron Islands, was one of the principal reasons for their reaving
Jon Snow’s Mother,
I don’t think she is. The show would face so much scrutiny.
Ice Spider,
Bravo, Ice, bravo!
Just because you can watch a show before others doesn’t mean you should write all the spoilers you want about it. Go ahead and watch if you want. Just don’t try to spoil it for everyone else.
As with Ice Spider, I’m done with this one, too.
SerNoName,
“There is nothing of that Jon on the show. On the show Sansa and Davos seem to be doing all the talking.”
Right. And there are only 3 more episodes before the actual battle. They just rode out to gather help. The strategy has already taken place and we got what, 3 lines from Jon? How long will it take them to get to their first northern house? I’m guessing they’ll arrive in next Ep cause that’s how it needs to roll this season. In the trailer Davos and Sansa are appealing to house Mormont. What could possibly happen between now and Ep 9 that imbues energy back into the character? I was wondering why they haven’t been showing him in episode previews or summary descriptions like they have everyone else. Is because he’s been given a backseat this season? Until the very end maybe. Where we’ll be left with yet another cliff hanger. And watch it’ll be that we find out about parentage but he won’t OR he will but it ends there and we don’t see his reaction. Dammit guys!! @#$
I agree
Darkrobin,
Eh, small viking type of ships aren’t hard to make.
Also they didn’t steal all the ships. Only the ”best”. So Euron still has some of the Iron fleet….just the crappy though..
I also thought for weeks the item on the back of the NK from the stills could be the horn of Joramun but it turned out to be his sword. I wonder when that will be found?
Bran and Raven are the Many-Faced God, they are all the Bran the Builders, they are R’hollor, they are the face Varys saw in the flames, they are behind everything. Thank you George RR Martin!! Game of Thrones is a time-travel epic, whoohooo!
Yeah I thought more about this on my drive into work, and I think you’re right. You could definitely see his eyes when the wights were breaking through the door, so I guess Bran had already let go. I’ll have to watch again to see if you can tell when it transitions back to Hodor.
Mihnea,
Thanks!!!
Hodor had the “best” death sequence so far i don´t know how will the show top that.
After this anything after will be lame in comparison.
Looking forward to seeing the “beutiful death” painting for Hodor.
Totally agree!
Quote from said person: “I heard about the leak and had to literally stay off the internet all day long to keep from being spoiled on the show”
ALL DAY!
Reality: posts 42 times on the non spoiler threads before the episode aired at 9pm.
Unbelievable! 🙂
Hoyti Von Totiy,
It has to be him on the poster, can’t be anything else!!
To be fair, the Iron Islands is one of GRRM’s bigger plot holes. Plenty of people have analyzed the size of the various kingdoms and have come to the conclusion that there is just no way the Iron Islands could support the number of people necessary for armies (or plundering navies) as asserted by the books.
Though I think this issue pales in comparison with the concept of significant numbers of people surviving multi-year winters. We only have about 80 days worth of food stored even in modern times.
redxgod,
Maybe a certain long-lost Stark found it, after he learned that’s what Mance was looking for.
almost every thing i cared about in GOT is gone…
will nymeria come back? or gendry?
i would happily never see another scene from dorne, and im tired of cersei, uninterested in iron throne, even tyrion not as interesting as in the past…
i think im just depressed about the wolves, hodor, and all of the others who have died…
soon there will be nothing left to kill. yeah. im depressed.
I agree. I live in Asia and thus the show is released when I am at work Monday morning. Obviously, I cannot watch it with everyone else, but only after I finish work, go to the gym, have dinner and do the dishes. Somehow, I can make it the ~10 hours without spoiling myself each week. Ice Spider should be able to handle it once, especially since his task is easier because he doesn’t have to worry about mainstream sites spoiling things. I cannot even open up something like NYT, Slate, HuffPo, WaPo, etc for fear of headline spoilers. I actually bring a book to work so I have something to read during Monday lunch.
Dame of Mercia,
I have NO Doubt we will see Sandor again, maybe no-longer the Hound but still a man with a fuck-the-bigwigs attitude.
But Summer is gone, I heard those death howls and my heart sunk at the same time I was yelling at the TV. I pray we’re not going to see him as a creature of wights but this is GOT and I expect to be hurt many more times before this ends.
But… it does give me hope that maybe D&D are lining us wolf lovers up for an emotional and Most anticipated Nymeria revisit and I have a feeling they’re not going to kill her off so quick.
This is how sappy and Gullible I am! lol
Hoodoor,
Why was that the final vision shown to bran? As a final test. I assume because Bran has to learn to enter and leave of his own will, and that family scene was the one that he had the most difficulty tearing himself away from.
anne,
Yeah-I don’t know why it took until Hodor dying, but I, too actually sat staring into my wine glass wondering if I should stop watching the show before they whack Arya. Or Davos. Or (insert beloved/interesting character here). Actually considered stopping and not in a flouncy way.
Looper,
Exactly – if you’ve read any amount of Sci Fi, you’ll know that time travel paradoxes just make the ol noggin hurt. Try not to overthink.
Jack Bauer 24,
GAWD this kills me!!!
that is what i was thinking when i was trying to sleep.
(GOT gives me insomnia…love/hate rollercoaster)
Future Arya and Sansa sitting down. Most epic lying game ever!
Little_Birds,
What I said, and meant, is that I don’t like people who watch before anyone else and then post spoilers before we get a chance to watch the show.
I purposefully avoid anything to do with GoT on Sundays so that I can watch with baited breath. I don’t post in here at all until after the show has aired.
Watch it all you want before anyone else. I don’t really care. What I care about is people trying to spoil it for everyone else.
Shaz,
i like your thought about Sansa and LF and retribution for LF role in Ned’s death.
LF is such a f*cker. he makes you like him just a titch and then you realize he’s a conniving arsehat. (reminds me of an ex i had…grrr)
Well this episode practically confirms a theory…did anyone notice when the CotF stabs that WW with one of their spears, nothing happens…but when Meera grabs spear and throws it, the spear slays the WW…hmmmmm!
Can mean only one thing, Meera is special, same with Jon, both used non Dragonglass weapons. Maybe because it’s what they are…Stargareon’s, we’ll know by seasons end with the hopeful ToJ reveal.
Side note: Meera is a fuking badass after watching this, team Meera rises in the North.
Probably already posted, but D&D discuss how they learned about the origin of Hodor’s name from the big man:
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2016/05/23/game-of-thrones-major-hodor-reveal-came-from-george-rr-martin
Apollo,
Apollo… I certainly will not judge you for watching the leaked episode and you certainly didn’t spoil anything for those of us waiting in the downstairs apartment.. and I kindly appreciated you coming to congradulate us in our resistance.
But there was another poster on here (not going to embarass or bemean them) that I was getting seriousily Fucked Off with and he seemed to be dropping continual hints until the Moderator told them to buggar off back to the other post.
It was that kind of Mischief that almost made me close down the WotW page which was the only one I had open for those last 3 hrs, putting my faith in Sue’s Vigilance.
tyjon,
The Child of the Forest hit him in the armor, but the dragonglass didn’t pierce it. Meera hit him in the neck, where he wasn’t protected by anything, so she killed him. Jon had valyrian steel, which pierced the armor easily.
Meera is a tough cookie! I loved her from the first moment I saw her on the show. Glad she got a moment to shine.
Ok I don’t know if anybody else had said this yet but I’m going to put my theory hat on, I hope I use this spoiler coding correctly.
[ spoiler ] I believe it was said that the WW couldn’t get south of the wall as long as it was standing. They were also not supposed to be able to enter the tree until Bran was touched by the NK. So I think that Bran and Meera will get to the wall but bc he has the mark on his arm he will allow the WW to get through and them passing through the wall or over it will cause the wall to fall down. [ / spoiler]
Sue the Fury………I bow respectfully. So much good, sorry, fan-freaking-fabulous about this episode. Thank you, to all, for giving me so much more to ponder. Y’all really do have some amazing insights.
Just to veer off a bit: this season will likely garner the most Emmys EVER, and, the most nominees……….. Acting, make-up, acting, production, production, writing, acting, acting acting, production, and, might I add a new category: Best Recap of a Show? The winner is…………..
Interesting
Personally I actually thought it delves back into E2 when Bran is “Home”. Eg Bloodraven knows he is about to die and leave Bran for the last time,
So one can parallel Lord Rickard saying bye to Ned before he leaves for the Eyrie – the last time they actually see eachother – to what Bloodraven is doing with Bran, being there at Winterfell (aka “Home” in E2) that time the entire vision is a gesture of love and warmth to his protege in his very final moments of life
The last vestiges of warmth as the Winds of Winter roll in (Direwolf Summer is being killed at this time, if you understand how Brans yet unamed Direwolf came to be known by that name after 3-eyed Crow first approached him in the post-Tower fall coma it was really sad and deeply thematic) and you get a sense of this as Meera’s frantic cries roll into a previously happy vision and then of course we get Bloodraven dying and Wylis collapsing and there’s pretty much only grimness before Bran now
That battle for the Cave was really quite epic on so many levels
So was that guy tied to the tree the Night King?
Was that thing inserted into his chest the “Heart of Winter”?
The North Remembers,
Interesting theory actually and there may be merit
If I remember right might also have something to do with the “Night’s Watch holding true” so the fact they stabbed Old Bear Mormont and defiled Guest Right at Crasters and then killed LC Jon on top of that may have something to do with it, eg the magic of the Wall is tied in with the magic of the Night’s Watch Brotherhood, eg the way through for Bran etc initially was via Sam speaking the password…
One thing the show didn’t touch on was there was probably some significance in Bloodraven being a former Lord Commander as well so that makes 3 counts…will be fascinating if he “lives on” in “Mormont”s Raven when the time comes in the books
Something, something something….
Hmmm… the weirwood tree had always been there..
Since someone did mention that bran lost the access to weirwood central…if bran’s role was to become the new 3ER, it seems to me he will need a weirwood to perform whatever he will need to stop the war or help save the humans.. and it so happens that there was one at winterfell. (after all, that was where osha gave him talks about the old gods) I suddenly notice that it was always given emphasis in the intro so somehow that specific weirwood will be relevant to the end game…
Hmmm… if the first white walker was created in the weirwood using some ritual, could it be possible they could also be undone using the weirwood and some ritual?
“Hodor=Coldhands”
Oh man. I love good tin foil but Hodor is a prime wight potential. I don’t think we’ll see Hodor and Summer as wights but they definitely are in my mind.
Coldhands is not a wight. I think it’s more likely Benjen rescues Meera and Bran in an Aragorn-type role and is not the “magical” monster CH is in asoiaf. We’ll see though. Someone will obviously help Bran and Meera.
Bran being the thing that allows the Others to pass the wall is interesting. I will say that Bran and Meera know this so maybe they’ll hesitate to put the realm at risk?
About NK’s show origin. I think this is a divergence from asoiaf. NK is not the first Other in asoiaf. I like the show decision as it streamlines things a bit. I am now interested in 3ER’s origin. He was in that original weirwood (where NK was created). My tin foil hat was thinking is NK the Avatar of 3ER IRL? Kick those tires.
Very stoked about Brienne’s upcoming adventure. Sansa lost her best protector though.
I enjoyed the Kingsmoot changes (I also liked affc). As much as I enjoyed the parallel editing of Euron drowning/Asha taking ships, I am wondering how Euron won the Kingsmoot but Asha got the men (and ships)? No biggie though.
I am very glad that next week’s preview looked so dull. HBO doesn’t want to give away anything.
I thought about this as well (identity of the client). But it can’t be Cersei, because (i) The play is not laughing at Cersei but making a saint out of her (ii) If Lady Crane is killed, some other actress will play the part – if someone want the play stopped, they should kill Izembaro, the leader of the troupe (iii) Cersei would simply send some cut-throat to kill an actress. If she sends a faceless man, it should be someone important and difficult – like Tyrion, Sansa, High Sparrow.
That said, we only have Arya’s assumption based on a first impression of the actors, that the younger actress is the one who wanted Lady Crane dead. It could be the dwarf actor, who showed more interest in the younger actress than the Lady Crane who he seemed to be engaged to.
Bring Back Benjen,
What about the Wildlings. It is their war as well. It’s a lot of peoples war.
Think he can still do this by going up to Weir Trees and touching the face like he did on the way to BR’s cave when he got that vision?
Eg there was quite a bit in there, not just BR’s voice but the Dragon flying over KL for example which is presumably from the future…
My question is whether Night’s King can now “hack into” any visions he is having, so if he goes into the Tower in the future the Night’s King may see the truth as well which makes the Hardhome sequence and the look given after he killed the WW even more interesting!
Tycho Nestoris,
I wonder, will it actually occur to Bran that he might compromise the magic of the Wall if he passes through? Since it seems most likely that he is headed back to Westeros now.
Adam,
I disagree with you about The Night’s King.
I believe Dany will be the main antagonist. I can’t shake the feeling Jon will have to stop her in the end.
You are going to burst a blood vessel or something, take it easy. I’m fine with not understanding you – people see things differently.
So are all the children now officially gone or do you think there are still a few around?
I didn’t watch the leaked version for a couple of reasons, but I can completely see why people did. It is a show that we all love and we’re always desperate for the next episode, so it is reasonable to assume people will want to watch it as soon as possible. If people have HBO anyway, it isn’t exactly hurting them as they already have the money. If they don’t, well they would pirate it anyway. I can see why some people watched it to avoid spoilers too. I’m not going to condemn anyone who watched it, but the people who spoiled others are pure scum.
The people to blame here are HBO. I don’t know if they’re out of their depth or just incompetent, but they should be doing a lot more to prevent leaks. One or two times is regrettable, but sort of acceptable, but I have lost count of the number of times it has happened now with GoT. And they have the cheek to whine about sites like this one giving out fairly minor spoilers!
Even though GRRM said he isn’t Coldhands, how else are they going to explain what Benjen’s been doing this whole time? I think they can make him be him in the show. Cause even if The Children told Benjen he has to wait for Bran and Meera, that’s a long damn time to be waiting in the forest.
Oh! I remembered someone from this site.. Hi there Selina or was it Selena? I kind of forgot her username here.. She was the one who said she cared for no other storyline except bran’s and as far as I can remember she said something like skipping season 5 because there was no bran in it… I just wanna know if you’re still ok right now with everything happening to bran, especially his direwolf. I hope you did not hurt yourself or something… when I visitedd this site after watching I was scanning for Dee‘s comment as I remember she’s pro stark (and direwolves. am I right?) just wanna how she’s gonna react with summer’s death. Well, she seems fine.. just wondering about selina though.
ghost of winterfell,
I feel like between Meera and Bran they will come to the realization that anywhere they go becomes accessible to the Others. The hand print isn’t going anywhere so it’s a constant reminder. I felt 3ER was pretty clear that being touched compromised the ward.
No it doesn’t! Here is the simple explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2nNzNo_Xps
Note that I wrote “simple,” not “easy to understand.” 😀
HereBeDragons,
I see- I think may have saw that. That’s fair enough-and unfortunate, but certainly not representative of the “vast majority” of us less disciplined viewers. I never go to the unsullied threads as I know I’ve no business there, but was curious yesterday to see how you guys were doing in an almost empty house 🙂
Like I said… hats off to you all, I hope (and am sure) it was well worth the wait/ torture. 🙂
The North Remembers,
One, nope, you didn’t use spoiler code correct. 😀 Two, that was not a spoiler, but instead speculation. (Not unless you’ve read Winds of Winter. Which you haven’t unless you are a time traveler.)
My speculation is different. I think that Jon foreshadowed what is going to happen: it is going to fall down (or part of it) under Edd’s watch when Ramsay’s men sack Castle Black looking for Sansa.
How will GRRM explain what Benjen has been doing all of this time. “Oh, he’s Coldhands” will mean jack squat to the non-readers and (at this point) a huge chunk of the readers!
Wimsey,
His look at the end.
*”Did they buy that?”*
The show isn’t about to spend precious time on Jon counting stores or signing papers. Besides, in the books, Jon has an ally in Alys Karstark- who just happens to be the heir. He has no such person in the show, so he can’t make an alliance with them. He does, however, personally go to Hardhome to treat with the Wildlings there…something which doesn’t happen in the books.
Show-Jon may be more of a fighter than book-Jon, but that makes him no less the diplomat.
Daeny will be the main antagonist for only one character: Daeny. GRRM adheres to the theory of storytelling in which principal protagonists are their own principal antagonists.
Tycho Nestoris,
Heh, probably more like: did they understand that? The Doctor always has troubles communicating with humans! By comparison, R’hllor is a master communicator….
By the way, Blink is a great episode.
Wimsey,
I wasn’t sure what to put under spoiler. code (or how to use it apparently) bc I know a lot of people get angry about anything that could be slightly spoilery.
Mihnea,
depends if danie can tolerate the constant smell of fish
Indeed, that play could have been written by the Casterly Rock Minster of Propaganda!
It was telling, however, to see just what buffoons the Northeners are considered to be. We’ve seen indications of that in Westeros: and apparently it extends across the sea.
Problem is, that these things happen in aggregate. You are making the assumption, up front, that every single person who criticizes Dany or Sansa or whoever is being completely objective and has no biases. That given a similar situation with a male character, they would definitely make exactly the same critique.
On the other hand, I am looking at humanity – in aggregate – and assuming that while many people are pretty good at being objective, there are some that are not, and none of us is perfect. And there are some people that have biases, in particular, against female leaders – this has been shown again and again – in aggregate – to be a problem. In controlled studies, an assertive action by a woman is considered more negatively (across all participants) than the same assertive action by a man.
And please don’t mischaracterize – I never did say that “the discussion” was hating on feminine empowerment. I said that there are some people who really cannot be objective when it comes to female leaders and that in aggregate this leads to an aggregate less positive assessment of the character than of male characters in similar situations would.
Victoria of the Vale,
Sorry if i have misread what you meant, if your beef is with people watching early to spoil on social media/article comments on spaces usually reserved for after the episode airs, then i agree : they’re ass****. But you can’t really fault those who leaks/links episodes early (which will usually be the same people who upload episodes after they air without leaks) who have an illegal but integral part in the current success of the show.
The North Remembers,
It’s a spoiler if it is going to happen or if it happened in the books and thus might happen on screen. Otherwise, it’s just speculation. (If your speculation is based on things untelevised that you know will happen or that you know happen in the books, then spoil out that part.)
River Song on Doctor Who does a nice job of succinctly explaining them: your future is her past! If the show’s future is going to be things that are from your past (i.e., you have seen or read it already, but the rest of us might not have done), then River will say “Spoilers!”
Add Gendry to that list
Knight of the Walkers,
It was actually kind of a brilliant transition and not random. They were showing the fake-Tyrion menacing fake-Sansa in the play, like she was going to be ravished and then they cut to the penis…only it’s just sad, faux-Joffrey STD penis. It was pretty funny.
Somebody mentioned here that GRRM initially intended Sansa to betray/fight against her siblings (in the same way that he initially intended for Jon and Arya to fall in love with each other). If true, I understand why he might have considered that because it would make for a more interesting story if not all the Stark children were protagonists. Among the siblings, Sansa would fit the bill – she was from the beginning ambitious and snooty, she was willing to lie to get what she wanted (e.g., the Joffrey-Nymeria mess), she learned to play the game from questionable characters (Cersei and LF). I wonder if the book/show would explore this. Maybe they won’t go with the full-out Stark fight but it looks like seeds of distrust are being planted (thanks to the slimy LF, of course). Aside from the very telling D&D interview in the Inside the Episode clip & Sansa lying to Jon, there was also that time when the camera panned to Edd when Sansa said “I am” (a Stark). His reaction was like “Hmmnn…” Why would they show that particular reaction? Also, Brienne saying she doesn’t trust Davos and Mel because they made Stannis kill his brother for power through black magic could be another seed being planted so Sansa might think twice about fully trusting Jon. This is very different from how I expected the reunion/team-up would be but then this is GOT. Of course, the show won’t give us a straight-up feel-good, lovey-dovey story lines.
After last night, I’m not so sure. #nomoredeaddirelves
Wimsey,
Dude, despite being a book reader you always spell Dany as “Daeny” – stop it!
Daenerys > Dany
Think of it like Richard and Dick. Robert and Bob. Josephine and Josie. Elizabeth and Betsy. The spelling of the nickname does not always preserve the spelling of the full name! 🙂
redxgod,
As in most of the Godswoods of the great houses of the north and probably more than a few in the wild
Before getting some sleep, so much to take from the episode, will probably take a few days but
A very fascinating link perhaps between Jorah Mormont being “sent away” and Littlefinger being “sent away” scenes with the prospect of both of them returning,
Even with all the talk of dying etc
Chad Brick,
Agreed. That’s why they were supposed to save so much of each harvest … remember Maester Luwin giving advice on that. And many died if the winters were long … all the old men went “hunting” and never returned
There was nothing on the Iron Islands except iron and other minerals. Very little wood, very little arable land. Even Viking longships required a certain size of tree. The poor soil couldn’t provide enough. But enough on that … sometimes I regret bringing up things like that
Did the Children of the Forest fireballs get an upgrade from Season 4?
Sue the Fury,
OK, I missed the joke there then lol.
Adam,
As I understand it, there WAS a nightswatch at that time, and the now Night King was the former Lord Commander. In the books, he sneaks off and falls in love with a woman with “pale blue eyes.” Once again, things sway from the books a bit.
Upon a re-watch just now of the CB scene I think it’s pretty obvious that Sansa is not completely genuine and little wheels have begun turning in her mind that will lead her to become, to put it nicely, not the most loved Stark. If you watch, with an open mind, the scene where she gives Jon the cape you’ll pick up the vibe, the difference in their demeanor and how the actors play off each other, which is a hint. It’s very subtle but the undertone is there. Based on information I just read from book readers and an older quote from the author (I’m surprised the ones here haven’t discussed this) there is back-up for the idea of Sansa being a foil to the other siblings.
Wimsey,
If he has become a Coldhands-like figure, he wouldn’t have been able to come back to the Wall. I guess I should have been more clear. He may not BE Coldhands, but instead something like Coldhands.
U cant really compare Tyrion’s decision to bring the Red Priests to Cersei’s. The Sparrow has no loyalty to the iron throne or the king on it. He cares about himself and the people. There is no motivation for him to serve Cersei or the royal family and this is where Cersei went wrong by bringing him in. She didnt do her homework and find out what his true desire was. She thought money would seduce him which was lack of foresight on her side. The Red Priests/Priestesses are different. They actually BELIEVE that Dany is the Savior/AA/PtwP etc. They only care about Dany and their loyalty is to the Lord of Light and her as his Chosen One. They dont really care about anyone else. In fact, at this point in time, they are probably more loyal to Dany than anyone around her except for maybe Jorah.
This really serves to highlight the difference between Tyrion and Cersei. Tyrion brought the Red Priests because he knew they were loyal to Dany..at least for now. Cersei brought the Sparrows without knowing where their loyalty truly lie.
Ghosts Lunch,
LOL
In the books, the Night’s King legend was a former Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. But in this story, since he was the first, there couldn’t have yet been a Night’s Watch because the Night’s Watch was created as a defense against him and the others he created in the first place. Either the backstory is different from show to book or the book legend isn’t accurate in the first place. It is, after all, myth, not real history. It’s more like the story of Gilgamesh than the story of Julius Caesar.
I thought that was a fantastic – but heartbreaking – episode.
-Good scene between Sansa and Littlefinger. Really good acting. I’m afraid she’s going to trust him again, though…
-HUGE revelation about the White Walkers. The Children made them?!?!? I think I yelled out “Whaaaaaaaa?”. I am so curious as to whether this is book canon, or an invention by D&D.
-I am SO devastated about Summer dying. So far this season, Summer and Shaggydog have been the two saddest things for me.. by far.
-Hodor’s death was tragic… but also heroic. My friend started crying when young Willys had his seizure. I can’t believe Summer and Hodor are gone… They are Starks, and it was so heartbreaking to lose them.
I really liked the whole “hold the door” time-loop thing. I can’t stop wondering if this is how Hodor became Hodor in the books as well, or whether D&D made that up.
the hug between isaac and kristian on the behind the scenes thing is so beautiful I almost cried again lol
Well in the show Jaime is also outshined by Cersei, Theon by Yara, Loras by Margaery.
Only Tyrion is having his own scenes and he will soon be outshined by Dany.
I get that Jon and Jaime are supposed to be smart leaders in the books, but show said this season the women will rise. I can’t say i didn’t expect it, and let’s be honest, everyone loves it from critics to audience… at least Jon will get to have a speech .
This season is for female characters.
RG,
Pretty much everything you just said.. ???
Sam,
I just saw what you wrote after posting the same sentiments! I had not heard it here yet but read that at a different sullied forum this morning and was surprised nobody has brought it up in relation to the Sansa discussion cause it’s very much foreshadowing and helps to make sense of her lie and the show writer’s remarks.
Sam,
Yeah I’m theorising this in the books
Eg when Blackfish loses Riverrun in the books Jaimie chapter, that is the formal end of Robbs joint Kingdom, the fact Blackfish is cynical of Jon in that conversation is very telling
Basically Rickon in the absence of Bran is Robbs heir who trumps both Sansa and Jon to both, if he dies which I expect in books and show then I expect the North to fall in behind a Jon who was perhaps legitimised by Robb in his will and the RL behind “Catelyns Daughter” basically so I expect Robbs Kingdom in the North to split
Not only that but a kind of Stark civil war, kinda foreshadowed strangely enough with Ariannes Queenmake plotline that would have pitted Myrcella vs Tommen as a form of Lannister/”Baratheon” civil conflict
So for my part I’m not surprised at all to see the possible underpinnings of a Season 7 plot taking shape, not sure how much with shortened seasons they’d be able to flesh it out though…
Jack Bauer 24,
Think their the same but now we actually saw that it isn’t a fireball but a grenade of some sorts.
Lex,
I really liked the whole “hold the door” time-loop thing. I can’t stop wondering if this is how Hodor became Hodor in the books as well, or whether D&D made that up.
That was grrm. Here’s the link
Edit: I want to add that D&D and Bender’s execution was spectacular.
That was to be early in the story, and she basically wound up doing that in the books, anyway. However, Early!Sansa was going to regret her decision to side with her husband rather than her siblings, particularly after Joffery’s death.
But you are correct: Sansa was not initially going to be one of the principal protagonists. I think it very probable that one reason why Book!Sansa has been so slow to evolve is that whereas he had arcs for Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran and Arya in his head from the start, he did not have one for Sansa. Modifying an arc is a lot easier than creating one, particularly after you have created arcs for lots of other characters. Thus, we wind up with Book!Sansa that Stephen Jay Gould could have used as a test example! (To mix fields….)
Lex,
They confirmed Martin told them when they had that talk.
They say ”here we are in a hotel room trying to get as much information as possible and he told us about this…”
I dont like the fact that Sansa lied… she’s up to something.
Jon is a bastard, and it is known that bastards are fundamentally immoral people because they were born out of immoral acts. So, what this really tells us is that there is a lot of superstition in Jon’s way.
aabe,
New poster here but your first point!!! She seems like a fair maiden, especially compared to the rest. In regards to who it could be instead, it is expensive to hire them no? Though maybe that’s purely my impression from the show.
What about it being a test from the FM? Though they seem to take the gift very seriously so not sure they would use it as just a test…
Apologies if I’m repeating things from somebody else!
Maggie,
Critics love it, yes. But that doesn’t really mean anything because for a long time now, critics have been judging this show on only one parameter.
However, I don’t get why we can’t have strong women and strong men. I seems strange that we can have only one 🙂 . I have never judged this story as a man-woman thing. I like individual characters for what they are, and as a Jon fan, this season is disappointing me, big time.
The show as a whole is of course stronger than ever, since it does not depend on any one character.
And that is a very important distinction. In the books, one legend about how the Night King got started is in the tale Nan told. It seems that there is another tradition in the far east involving the Great Other. And, of course, some people have no traditions concerning the Night King at all: in the books, the southern Westerosi think that the Northerner’s stories about White Walkers are based on Wildlings or nothing at all.
(It is telling that there is no version of this story in the Book of the Seven: we never read or hear tales of a Hero who was graced by the Warrior, armed by the Smith and blessed by the Mother who went forth and ended some demonic power.)
Now, clearly the stories in which there are White Walkers have some thread of truth to them. However, much like Ned Stark at the Tower of Joy, there are a lot of untruths: and with a tale this old, there is much more story than history.
Benjen Stark is going to be in the next episode to come and save Bran.
Ironically, yes: quality. However, there are a lot of aspects of “quality” that the critics see in this show! (Indeed, more so than most shows: remember that the swords, sorcery and dragons count for negative points in their eyes.)
QueenofThrones,
“…I said that there are some people who really cannot be objective when it comes to female leaders and that in aggregate this leads to an aggregate less positive assessment of the character than of male characters in similar situations would.”
But while we all know there are sexist, racist, and biased people in the world I believe that there are more people who are of decent character. There is nothing to be done about them, and as long as one of them isn’t spouting off that kind of questionable rhetoric here what good does it do to bring it up except for it just serves to make some people think you might be pointing fingers and pinning those assumptions on them. Philosophical discussion is fine if that’s what you were aiming for. I just personally assumed the thought came to you based upon some of the opinions you read in this forum.
Not sure that hiring the Faceless Men is expensive per se, but there is a point made somewhere that whoever is hiring them has to give up something very valuable to themself, maybe even a sacrifice.
The problem is that it is multiple wars. And what will be the bigger problem is convincing people south of the Wall that there is another war besides the ones happening in Westeros.
Of course, once Edd lets the Wall fall down, that might become less of an issue….. 😉
Reminded me of Aliens as well.
Interesting thought. Yeah, her story in the book seems to be going nowhere. That’s why I like ‘show Sansa’ more than ‘book Sansa’. Those 5, I believe, were the ones he intended to be the main characters.
Geez, it’s almost a Catch-22. After the last 3-4 weeks, part of me wants a breather. And another part of me wants MORE.
Poor Edd. He was left with, what? 20 men? And winter is coming!
B&W got to hear “Hold the Door”: GRRM didn’t!
Seriously, what I mean by that is that B&W got to plan their adaptation with Sansa as Main Character #6 from the start. GRRM added that after he had started: and even though he revised thoroughly, it’s really tough to make major changes to your own work like that. You are just too close to it!
Sam,
Everyone face East, and:
“Walkers to the Left of Me, Boltons to the Right, here I am, stuck in a bloodbath with you….”
Sansa does need her own army. The Wildlings are loyal to Jon for saving their lives. They’ll fight because Ramsay dragged them into it. But if the Starks want their home back they will need to reunite (most of) the North. Northerners are loyal to Starks, and if they won’t fight for a bastard who let the Wildlings past the Wall, they may get behind a trueborn Stark.
I do think the Vale’s army will show up last minute during the Bastardbowl. And I think a lot of enemies will have to put aside their differences to fight the common one.
The Waif is correct in being certain Arya is unable to become No One. She knows Arya is not worthy and will defile the HOB&W which she takes quite seriously. She’s basically Thorne in sandals.
Meera’s heroism is so real. She’s terrified but does what needs to be done.
Nice to see Theon has learned he’s not a good leader (nor deserves the things he used to feel entitled to) but has always been an excellent hype man.
I like the idea of Yara and Theon heading to Mereen to help Tyrion in the impending war to come. Theon is a bridge to an alliance between Targs and Starks.
Wimsey,
part of me wants a breather
Haha well, let’s see how you feel after MTWTF…I am guessing the hype train will be choo-ing
Wimsey,
It’s reminiscent of how Northerners are depicted in the UK as well. We are depicted as fat stupid beer-swilling smokers who live off benefits and Greggs pasties.
There’s also this issue that to the eyes of the people outside CB, he’s a deserter of the NW. I wonder if they will tell people that he died and was resurrected. Or maybe the show will not bother with that anymore and just assume people know the reason why his watch has ended.
The North Remembers,
You almost did the spoiler code correctly. You just need to remove ALL the spaces inside of the [ ] so it’s just spoiler and /spoiler inside of the brackets.
Sam,
Don’t forget Ramsay’s army! Jon’s like, “see ya Edd! Thanks for saving me with the wilding army. I’ll be taking them and my magic sword. I’ll uh…come back you…”
lol… Entirely! Come Saturday, I will want Hardhome Squared.
Still, I wonder what it will be like binge-watching this next year, though.
Yeah, that issue has come up. My thought is that someone is going to call this the most creative lie to justify deserting he or she has ever heard!
And don’t forget the lack of hygiene and how your mother is also your aunt! 😀
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
Thanks!
The motivation would need to be pretty strong at that point still,though this means it won’t have to be someone rich.Hope we actually receive an answer at some point, since Jaqen doesnt seem inclined to give it.
QueenofThrones,
I think the problem is that many of the women who lead are compromised by both GRRM and the show.
I think what GRRM did to Cersei in the last two books was unforgivable. He sacrificed her as a human being and turned her into a one-note villain. He then expected sympathy for her during the walk of shame, which is bad writing 101. The writers and the actress wisely kept Cersei human, which is a better choice, so my quibble is with GRRM there.
Dany…oy. Dany was (for me) always the weakest link among the leads. She is in Essos, so whenever we see her, we get taken away from the heart of the story in Westeros. Her story is overly idealistic, with a cause no one can disagree with–I mean, who can find the “grey” in freeing slaves? Now hand that role to a relatively weak actress (sorry, but Clarke, imo, is just not the best out there) and you have yet another weak link, compounding a weak link.
Sansa and Jon…oy, I can rail about this one. Sansa of the shows and the novel is the classic damsel in distress. She then goes off with Littlefinger, and gets educated. Sadly, this is the least developed of the “educations” the Stark kids get–compare to Arya and Bran. After a few early learning experiences, Sansa spends most of her time in the Vale babysitting Robin and “hearing” Marillon.
Show puts her in her black gown and sends her North…where she’s damsel in distress some more. She plots nothing. She is victimized some more. Her one great accomplishment is jogging Theon out of his despair, which is hardly what she was being educated to do. The Starks need a player. She was supposed to be that player.
Then she meets Jon, and the show tosses cheap brother-sister drama at her instead of developing her character as a player.
Anyhow…I think there is something off with the way women who lead are depicted, both in the show and in the books. The negative responses to them are not usually sexist; they’re noting something that is already in the show and the books.
And you all keep whippets and wear flat caps 😉
Sam,
yeah i also think people are way too optimistic about the jonsa thing and i laugh at the people who find some excuse for sansa’s lies…the fact is here no matter the purpose SHE.USE.JON their relationship is new and too fragile to be built on lies
I haven’t read other posts so I don’t know if this has been discussed already but Sansa is pregnant, isn’t she? The things she said to Littlefinger….
Also Stark vs Stark? Sansa is going to die in episode 10 or next season for sure!! No way she survives betraying Jon. Also Lady got killed by a Stark after her betraying to Arya so…
ghost of winterfell,
Straight up, confused by the gender argument. To be blunt, as a red-blooded heterosexual woman I like me a strong handsome warrior hero. If played right, he will be my favorite no matter what but that doesn’t mean I’m anti-woman or that I don’t feel affection for a sympathetic, courageous and kind female character. Ugh. In the world of fiction we are allowed to be choosy about who we like or not and be given the benefit of doubt that if we don’t care for a particular female character it doesn’t stem from some deep seated mysogonist (or however you spell that) bias because for every one we don’t like there’s probably at least two that we do!
I guess Edd will be like – 8000 years the Wall has stood strong, then I become lord commander, and my blasted luck brings it down!
I have been expecting the Wall to fall this season, but really do not want it happening due to a third mistake from Bran (1- disobey Catelyn, lose legs and start a war; 2-disobey 3ER, helps the Others destroy the cave and all his friends except Meera; 3-Forget what Sam said about the Wall and 3ER about the ‘mark’ and lift the protection from the Wall). It will be a full circle though, one Brandon Stark raising the Wall and another one helping to tear it down. However, GRRM said that we will go further North than ever before in the Winds of Winter, so I am hoping Bran is going North and not South.
Here, doubting Thomases, touch my wounds and see for yourself… Jon may need to show his torso to the people he meets from now on. 🙂
And away we go…
The Nights King plot
is not how the Nights King came to be at all. I understand the need to rapidly explain how the WW came into being, and I doubt they’d devote time to who the Nights King really is [/ spoiler] So ok, the WW were created by the COTF and things went wrong at some point. So now that Wyllis is dead (sad ending but it was always what was meant to happen, so I’ll get over it) I can’t see Meera dragging a boy who weighs as much or more than her for very long. Enter
Coldhands! In the books he’s waiting around outside the cave, so it’s logical he would appear to help them once they escape- if that’s what happens in WoW right? [/ spoiler] or perhaps Benjen will make a reappearance and help her with Bran?
Sansa and LF, he does travel quickly, doesn’t he? So are the Knights of the Vale staying at Moat Catlin waiting for her or Robyn? Is LF going to go back and tell them to go home?
Jon and Sansa, makes sense to not tell Jon how she knows about Blackfish. He’d be mad about LF, and more so it makes sense to have no explained it in front of everyone else; whom she may or may not trust yet.
Arya clearly is never going to become a faceless “woman” so can we just get her back into westeros already?
Kingsmoot went down about as I expected. Victarion likely just a casualty of TV and limiting characters
So I guess that Euron will fill his roll and lead the “new iron fleet” to slavers bay, similar to what happened under Victarion? What about the Horn? I kinda think that’s a major piece of the book plot going forward [/ spoiler]
Meeren- ehh whatever, kinda a non-event. Got creeped out again hearing about Varys, and mr logical aligning with mrs super religion likely won’t work out. Lannisters and religion…not a good mix.
Predictions from tonight’s info:
1)
Coldhands [/ spoiler] or Benjen will come to aid Meera and Bran
2) Sansa will find a way to align with Robyn sans LF to use his army alongside her uncle’s (Blackfish) and those two along with the recruited northern houses will secure the North.
3) Euron will get a fleet over to Slavers Bay to aid Dany
4) Arya won’t kill the actress
We should start up a KickStarter to raise CGI money so that NO MORE of the Direwolves get killed. I seriously can not handle anymore of the wolves getting killed because of budget problems.
SaveTheWolves
May 23, 2016 at 1:23 am
Not sure if it’s been suggested yet, but maybe the reason Sansa lied to Jon is because she wasn’t comfortable with him finding out that her pride turned down a much needed army! That was what they were discussing-their lack of numbers.
What an emotionally draining episode! Love poor Hodor. Major props to the young Hodor actor that was able to knock out that difficult closing scene! And the director ?
Here is my speculation:
Arya comes back to Westeros, saves Jon from the power hungry wanna-be-queen Mini-Catelyn Jon-hating bitch-sister and they both execute her southron ass in front of the heart tree in Winterfell before they eat her treacherous heart and make love over her dead body making lovely black haired children with long faces that will rule the North for all eternity.
Seriously, she’s asserting herself in that meeting, because she doesn’t want to leave everything to the men in the room. She knows where going along with other people’s plans has taken her; even if she got her naive ass handed to her by Davos, not taking part is not an option anymore. She’s the Stark half to the Bastard King. That’s what she wanted them to know. It’s not all about Jon, she’ll be there and have a say and be the face of the campaign, if necessary (hence the new outfits).
Some people also react as if the following scene did not happen at all either. Did anyone pick up a certain vibe there as well, when she talked with Brienne? Like she did not sincerely consider him a brother?
After all she went through, it is not easy for her to just trust Jon et. al. and LF’s comment about her needing an army and Jon being only a half-brother might have even gotten to her for a moment. I suspect she will struggle with this issue and the “heritage” of LF’s education and her time in enemy territory where she always had to be vigilant and suspicious of everyone, but let’s not go crazy here. She has to grow into her own version of Lady Stark (as Weiss said: not a “pure and clean Stark”. But would one want that after what happened to poor old honorable Ned?).
It could also very well be misdirection from the showrunners. Remember that scene from S5 when Stannis embraced his daughter and everyone was happy about what a good father he was? Well, we know how it ended. It could just be the other way around for Sansa and Jon.
I’ll gadly join Annara Snow -wherever she may have ended up- and eat a thousand hats and one, if Sansa should really side with LF against Jon and try to usurp him, until then, I’m leaning very much towards a conciliatory resolution of that lie-business in Episode 7/8 at the latest. Because I don’t think they hang a Vale army on the wall and not use them in some form. So we’re gonna find out very soon.
aabe,
I am betting that it’s going to be Jon’s “mistake” rather than Bran’s that lets the Walkers through. Jon let the Wildlings into Westeros in part out of compassion, but also in part out of tactical pragmatism: every Wildling south of the Wall was one fewer Wight attacking the North.
So, in Martinverse, it would be fitting if that were part of Ramsay’s justification for wiping out the Watch and creating the hole in the Wall that lets the Walkers through. Remember, the whole point of the Wall is to keep out Wildlings: at least insofar as anybody thinks anymore. So, really, what’s the point of it when the Wildlings are all on the other side?
After all, good deeds cannot go unpunished here!
Again, it will have been months since Sansa left Winterfell at this point. What Sansa describes is what many victims of sexual and other physical abuse describe long after the fact. It is not how any woman I’ve ever known has described being pregnant. (Once she did start feeling that, it would be in places Ramsay didn’t reach: and Sansa would be showing fairly conspicuously.)
Sam,
We haven’t actually seen the wound after but from what I understand the wounds shouldn’t be healing.Guess he will have to walk around halfnaked for the rest of the season:) Which will be much more appreciated than the flash of warts…
But at least he has some proof, ressurection makes white walkers existing seem more reasonable I supposed.They could use a good explanation for the wildling army following them around.
Fantastic episode, everything was so well done – I think this has to be at least one of the top episodes, if not the tope.
I have two questions, which might not be answerable…
– If 3ER knew this would happen, why couldn’t he have prevented it? (thats always been a question I have about seers and other psychics- yes if you change the past there are consequences, but they might be less dire than what really happens….)
-Bran’s curiousity got him into this mess to some extent. Reading the article where Isaac is talking about his time with Hodor, and it occurred to me – when Bran was climbing up that wall, wasn’t that his curiousity as well that started this whole thing? Not that it was his fault, that was Jaime’s doing, but interesting that this normal personality trait could be the start of so much trauma…Also did anyone else get the feeling that Bran was a bored teenager looking for something to do just before he went’ on that visit to the past? Again, why couldn’t 3ER stop him? (which leads to the question I then always ask myself – if so we wouldn’t have a story!!!)
Loved Kingsmoot – so much better then in the books which I thought was a big bore. Loved Yara and Theon splitting early to get the ships! Loved Sansa and her assertiveness, loved Dany and Jorah..and Meera taking control! Sad about Hodor and Summer, but as the 3ER says the past is dry ink. Or something like that.
Finally – this is only the 5th episode. How in hell are they going top this!!!! Can’t wait!
Awwww Hodor ? Time for Lulu’s Mum emergency revisionist cannon to kick in…la LA LAAAAAAAA nothing happened, everything’s fine, he’s somewhere safe with Shireen. Making myself feel better by thinking yay! Edd’s LC! Tormund’s face at Brienne when they were leaving CB was hilarious and it’s nearly time for the greatest, most awesomest, headgear in the world ever to debut 😀 😀 😀
The thing that’s left me the most shocked however, is that the one and only thread I’ve ever read on 4Chan, which was a guy who claimed to work on the show answering questions about it, looks quite likely to have been legit. Surely that’s a first for them? I shall be keeping a close eye out for the other wasn’t-expecting-that stuff he apparently spoiled. I won’t post it on here in case it is genuine, but if anyone’s really interested I could stick it on the forums if the mods are ok with that?
In my view, we should be able to accept that some women are just stupid and evil, just like some men are. That’s a core part of accepting equal rights – you can’t just want awesome women, the fact is there are as many stupid douchy women as there are men. And they should be portrayed in fiction accordingly.
Now, it’s more interesting I think because in fact part of the reason Cersei is such a complete failure in her scheming (the stupid part) is because she got basically no training in it (because she was born female). But part of THAT is because she’s arrogant and doesn’t believe she has anything to learn (the evil part). And GRRM was trying to push us, I think, in the same way he did with Theon-Reek. “Oh, you want to see them suffer, eh? Well what do you think now???” The interesting meta fact though is that while almost everyone was somewhat empathetic with Theon there were many people that cheered the WoS and said she deserved it all and more. I think GRRM was pointing to a bit of a double standard there.
So overall I don’t have a problem with her character, even if I would have liked a little less stupid (and fewer chapters from her PoV…). But I think Book Cersei will smarten up a bit, just like the show version, assuming it ever gets written.
Dany is my favorite character so clearly I don’t agree (I also think Clarke is a fine actress). And of course there is plenty of controversy and conversation to be had about the morality of how Dany chose to end slavery – it’s not like the US Civil War was a cut and dry morally uncomplicated conflict just because slavery ended during it. I think that the question about exactly how and when violence should be used to achieve greater ends is one with a lot of potential. Yeah, her story is unconnected to KL, but this is a pretty silly reason to dislike the character. Jon and Bran are also very disconnected from KL but you get far fewer (and less ANGRY) complaints about them.
And I also love Sansa and the player she’s developing into. I never understood the complaints about her being a damsel. She clearly always had a wolf inside trying to escape – she just had few options for direct action. Even in S1 E10 “Maybe I’ll have him give me your head”. I certainly hope that she and Jon will continue to work together – they are a really good power team. I think most of the stuff this episode was to show just how LF can get under her skin.
Hmm… I kind of see your point. Some of it though is realistic in that A) women are not trained to lead as well as men and B) women in Westeros are less likely to be respected as leaders than men are. These two things put women leaders in-universe at a disadvantage, whatever their natural talents may be. You could also talk about Catelyn in this. She’s a textbook example of a (I think) naturally brilliant leader who is trying to work “within the system” – and her choices are very limited as a result.
But I don’t think it’s correct to completely discount that C) women are less likely to be respected as leaders on earth too.
It just seems to me that people went straight from “UGH sansa is so weak she does nothing!” to “UGH why doens’t Sansa act perfectly correctly at all times!”
Wylie,
However, I could see there being some sort of dispute about what’s going to happen next (provided that they win the Battle) at the beginning of S7.
If Sansa does go fetch the Vale army, we could have her at one side and Jon and the Wildlings and the rest of the north at the other side.
But tbh, I think until then, the Walker invasion will be the focus of action and the supposed sibling rivalry about who rules in Winterfell would be shifting towards the more important question of how to deal with the Undead. Would they try to hold Winterfell or rather lead everyone to “safety” in the south in some form of mass exodus? We’ll see, but I still think that LF dies at Sansa’s hand in the end, which means she will free herself of his influence and don’t repeat her AGoT-“mistakes” again (or so I hope 😀 ).
Now to the episode: The only thing I disliked was Euron’s sort of “rebel rebel”-like march to the top of the hill to kill Yara and Theon that was straight out of the Simpsons. Oh, and the segues between the scenes were a bit crass at times. The Kingsmoot directly after the WW revelation was too sudden for me, made the former feel like an info dump that came out of nowhere. But, I’m looking forward to the next Jack Bender episode.
What an intense episode.
I loved the editing of the Euron’s baptism/Theon and Yara’s escape scene. The visuals, the music, the fact that the only words spoken were those of Aeron, and what a great monologue that was… I too found the family-like resemblance between Euron and Theon really striking. For the same reason, I’m looking forward to seeing Sam’s family in the upcoming episode. I remember seeing the casting photos way back when and being shocked at how the actresses who play Sam’s mother and sister truly look related. The casting just keeps amazing me.
And what on earth is Littlefinger up to. It would be extremely out of character of him not to remember that Sansa is the only witness of his killing Lysa Arryn and that if Sweetrobin ever finds out about it, down through the Moon Door favorite uncle Petyr goes. Regardless of how he feels about Sansa and about all he put her through, it’s just not like him to leave such a dangerous witness around, especially now that he knows she’s no longer his ally.
Darkrobin,
I was thinking the same. He can follow Bran anywhere now?
Darkrobin,
I think that is a good, if not horrifying, thought. I hadn’t even considered that Bran is now marked and his passing through the wall may open the door wide open for the NK. Scary. But, we still have the Horn of Joramun out there, so that will have to work into it somehow.
Beric’s wounds healed. The scars were pretty bad, but they did heal. At this point, it has been several weeks since Jon revived. The cut near his eye seems to have healed (albeit with a scar). If we see him shirtless again, then I would not be surprised to just see some nasty looking scars there.
(Jon! Stop PICKING at it!!!!)
Jason,
They are not getting killed because of a budget problem. Lady and Greywind died as they did in the books and Summer probably too (his name and the situation make me doubt it goes any different on the page). Shaggydog is hard to guess at, since we have no clue regarding the book story for Rickon. The only thing the budget problem did was make their demises less heartfelt, since their connection with the kids couldn’t be completely shown in the early going.
They’re big dogs, not flying dragons (who no doubt will get killed as well).
If Bran gets south of the Wall and the Night’s King touches him while he’s south of the Wall, possibly. But the reason that the NK broke through the tree wards to begin with was that he touched Bran, who was and was not under the tree, meaning that the NK could touch him and that touch carried through into the ward. The ward was technically already breached at that point. Or at least that’s how I see the magic working.
Heldor =(((((((((((((((
Wimsey,
My mistake,I misunderstood the post I was replying to.
And I missed the detail of the wound on his face,oops.
Hope we are gonna see some badass scars in that case!
Shadow Shifter,
Lex,
Agreed. Summers death felt gratuitous . D& D are getting too sadistic with the stark hatred. Shaggydog lives! I want to believe!
Ginevra,
I like this explanation a lot.The idea of Bran being tracked with the mark would make running seem hopeless. On that note the white walkers didn’t seem that interested in him, instead personally going after bloodraven(potentially the children but they didn’t go after leaf eithet).Or maybe confident in the wights ability to Handel the rest?
Victoria of the Vale,
I think Sansa lied to Jon because Littlefinger has an army he is offering to Sansa to take Winterfell. Or so he says. Sansa knows Jon is trying to build an army so Littlefinger’s offer would be tempting. Except Littlefinger really mistreated & betrayed Sansa’s trust, and might do it again. Probably WILL do it again.
Just as important, Sansa is now an enemy to Littlefinger instead of just his pawn. She threatened to have Brienne kill him, she really told him off, then threw him out. IMO, when Littlefinger made that “half brother” comment he was mocking Jon & Sansa. Littlefinger only wanted Sansa so he could rule Winterfell as warden of the North. Sansa knows too much about him. Jon is also in his way. Because as far as Littlefinger knows Jon is half Stark. Sansa & Jon are in danger as long as Littlefinger breathes.
So if I was in Sansa’s place I might not trust Jon’s reaction enough to tell him about the meeting. And honestly, Jon may have killed Littlefinger outright. (I wish he would have.” )Littlefinger is definitely someone Sansa and the rest of the world can do without.
Hodor’s death was befitting of the pure, and strong character he was. I doubt many other characters will get to go out in such a dignifying and wholly badass way. While the last segment of the episode was a painful experience, I truly loved it. Beautifully executed and a compelling twist to the story (is it a twist if it had always been so?). RIP Wylis!
While I’ve never really been much of an Ironborn geek I’m glad to see them finally look beyond the petty raiding and pillaging. Plus I love their new musical themes! On the topic of Ironborn, I saw some people here express dislike of their willingness to follow the murderer Euron… I don’t think it’s uncharacteristic. They never came off as exceedingly moral or intelligent in the books (with the exception of Rodrik the Reader) and I feel the whole “I paid the iron price” gimmick was something that Euron knew would hook the men voting. And it worked. Makes enough sense to me.
Really enjoyed the rest of the episode! No complaints from me. But I want to address the whole killing the direwolves ordeal. A lot of people here act like all the wolves are dying needlessly. I’m too lazy to read all 10000 comments here to see if anyone mentioned this, but all the wolves have historically mirrored their respective Stark in personality and fate. For that very reason I don’t believe Sansa will ever be the head hancho of house Stark. So as far as the “needless” killing of Shaggydog goes… Rickon is a goner. He might even be the flayed man, burning before Ramsay in the trailer. I think Sue made a great observation about Summer’s death being the definitive end to summer. There might even be more implications of his death, like the severance of Bran to the lands of Summer and possible embracing of the lands of winter. Ultimately, every important character’s death is to some end in this story and wolves are not exempt from this. Our collective efforts are better spent analyzing the death than critizing the fact that it happened. Pretty long winded for me so I’ll stop there!
Summer held up the wights long enough to let Meera, Leaf and Hodor get out of there. If Summer goes with them, then they might easily have been overwhelmed without enough of a break for Leaf to go suicide bomber on them.
And, as others have noted, it was a good metaphor: summer just died. (Fade out the Beach Boys music.)
heh, still: I am surprised that we do not have the “denialists” insisting that Summer and Hodor must still be alive just as they did for Stannis.
Moondoor,
In the books, it has worked both ways. We’ve read one character (Beric) who is horribly scarred, but who seems to heal after revival. We’vre read another character who does not seem to do that. However: the latter character was dead for a long time, whereas Beric was always brought back within a day or so of being killed. Perhaps that is the basis for the difference.
This episode confirmed that Bran is one of the most important characters in Game of Thrones. He might have had a role in other key events in the history of Westeros. He is definitely important for the end of this story. Actually, Bran was the first character George R. R. Martin had thought of before starting writing the first book, and Bran’s first POV chapter was the first chapter George had written. I think this shows how important Bran is to the overall story.
If any major character is going to hire a Facelessman in the series, it is Euron or Littlefinger. Littlefinger’s got the money, Euron’s got the insanity. I wouldn’t put it past Euron to hire an FM to kill Asha and Theon. While discussing the three truths-one lie game, someone suggested that Arya could be playing the Volantene prostitute with Asha in the trailer. This is way off the books, but I would love to see Arya interact with Tyrion or Dany. But with her Stark luck, it is more likely that Arya runs into Jorah the Gray
Ok-am I the only person who thinks the NK looks different and less scary? He looked like the same bamf in S3 & S5, slightly cuddlier now.
Hodor was the best death I have seen this entire series. If ever there was a way to go, it would be to hold the door and save your loved ones…a true hero. Sniff. All that aside guys- we didn’t actually SEE hodor die, as the actor himself pointed out. There’s a slim chance we will see him again! Summer tho….poor summer he’s a goner. RIP summer leaf and three eyed Raven.
Littlefinger is going to ride in during Bastard Bowl, with the Vale army at his back.
He won’t fight of course but he will bring in the troops for Sansa, to get in her good graces. It will also give him a certain power within the north, should forces he led leads them to victory.
Am I the only one a little bummed that Jon nor Sansa mentioned going to look for Arya? Of course, the task at hand is important, especially knowing Ramsay has Rickon but it’s still odd to me that there hasn’t been one mention of trying to find her. For a family all about family, they don’t seem to be too concerned about Bran or Arya.
Another episode with no Sand Snakes. Not bummed but weird.
Thanks for being mature and not attacking… I suppose you feel so much better now? I didn’t ATTACK anyone personally on here.. but hey.. whatever. I have a right to say how I feel about something without being ATTACKED about it. If you are so annoyed just skip my posts.. no one is FORCING you to read them. Seems to me that you are an angry bitter individual …. good luck with that.
darkdadi,
OMG thats a scary thought but it could certainly be true! That mark didnt seem to be disappearing any time soon. Hes been branded and wherever he goes, the Night’s King will follow.
Wow…. did you count my posts??? How pathetic is that??? I didn’t get on any other site but this one and I didn’t get on until almost 7:30 in the evening… so yes that was all DAY… I didn’t say all day and NIGHT… . And I was on the ONLY thread that was posting NON-spoilers …so your point is??? Seems to me that your like your other friend angry and bitter…. I will tell you the same thing… GOOD LUCK with that!!! Tsk Tsk… attacking some one when all I did was post my feelings on that subject.. . I know the part of being anonymous makes you feel like you can be as nasty as you want to be but all you are really doing is showing your immaturity.
Compared to first half of S5, this is like drinking from a firehose!
Usually, I would start with “I’ve just watched the episode and it is time for my (brief) review”. But this time there are only two words to properly describe this…. “ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!”
I liked everything. Everything! And there is nothing to review. If “Home” managed to squeeze itself into my 10-rated episodes and “Book of a stranger” ventured deep into them, this episode made a huge leap over them and landed among my top 3 episodes. It has surpassed The Children and Blackwater, which automatically puts it at least on rank 3. Because of the final scene, it possibly surpassed Hardhome as well, thus making it on rank 2.
Just a couple sentences about the scenes that really stood out: I was expecting a WW attack on the tree this season but I had absolutely no idea that it would happen that soon or be so destructive! Summer, Three-Eyed Raven, Leaf, Hodor… That basically leaves only Meera and Bran alive. And not while ago, I thought Meera was a dead girl walking…. And the fact that CotF created the WW was a great addition to the story.
I often say that I’m not a big Daenerys’s fan (I don’t hate her either) but if her scenes continue to be like this one, I may actually start to like her. So far, this was my favorite scene of her.
Only second apperiance of Euron and he already made such an impression. I really like that he is not as one-dimensional villain as in the books, but still dangerous in his own way.
Sansa is as lovely as ever… Probably my favorite character at the moment.
The show in Braavos was hillarious.
And at the end, my biggest praise goes to the director Jack Bender who has become my favorite GoT director (along with Sapochnik). He was also a director of LOST, the show that is and will remain my favorite ever, especially considering the characters (GoT and TWD are so close but yet so far from it).
By this point, I’m determined to put this episode on rank 2, preceeded only by Watchers on the Wall and followed by Hardhome.
Side note: I’ve just read that this episode was leaked. I had no idea about that… Not that I would have watched it…. I NEVER watch leaked episodes!
What a great episode! I feel like we got a few answers that only brought up more questions.
Oh Hodor. Such a great scene. His face kind of changed and you could almost see his recognition of what was happening and his knowledge of what needed to be done. Brilliant!
I can see the return of Benjen to the aid of Bran and Meera. Especially since we got a close up shot of young Ned and Benjen hugging. Plus there have been too many times that we have been reminded of him still being north of the wall.
Arya’s story line is moving along but I think it is smart to take it slow. I feel like we have to feel what she is feeling and she has always wanted her fighting skills to come to her faster than they have.
I really do appreciate how the show writers have taken care to include what they can. I can imagine the challenges that come with taking all the details from such a dense book series and transforming them into something enjoyable for television viewers.
This season has just made me want to go back and start reading the books all over again!
Anyone else find it interesting that the COTF made the WW by inserting the dragon glass inside of them. Is that why they can be destroyed by it?
Also love the observation that the WW seem to be all men. There has to be some significance and connection with Craster’s sons and how he could live with a bunch of women unharmed yet had to sacrifice his sons.
Bastard of the Bluegrass,
Welcome to the Wall! As someone who grew up in Kentucky, your SN makes me smile! 🙂
Forgive my laziness, but to the person who way upthread mentioned it seemed like they were blaming everything on Tyrion in the play, I’ll have to watch, again, and pay attention to that particular aspect of that scene. Watching it the first time, I was too caught up in paying attention to how they’d written the dialogue. On my second watch, I was caught up in focusing on Arya and how what she was watching affected her. I never really got around to paying attention to the specific content of the play.
I’m not reading a lot into Sansa’s choice to not reveal the truth about where she got the information about the Blackfish. It makes sense to me, given all she’s been through, she’s reluctant to completely trust anyone, even Jon. She may never get to a point where she feels comfortable putting all her cards on the table with much of anyone. Also, while, yes, in the Inside the Episode we were told she doesn’t completely trust Jon (which, I think, is less of a reflection on what she thinks of Jon, specifically, and more of a reflection on all she’s been through), I’d guess there was at least an element of there being other people in the room she really doesn’t know. In other words, I don’t think withholding the source of her info. about the Blackfish is with an eye to somehow betraying Jon.
Ice Spider,
Yawn. That’s from last April.
El-Bobbie,
I am also concerned that Sansa lied to Jon. I hope that she did fall for Littlefinger’s manipulative statement just as he left referring to Jon as her half-brother.
QueenofThrones,
This is all totally subjective. Cersei, though…idk how you could limit it to “no training.” Novel Cersei sends friends and servants to the vivisectionist, and blinds the audience of a puppet play. She literally does nothing right. The show turns her human, yet that in turn means she can do little but wait around for her trial.
Sansa: Compare her arc to Bran and Arya. Bran is a god. His actions have monstrous consequences for the plot. Arya is a super-ninja. She’s been training, non-stop, in fighting, killing, while fighting to preserve her identity as a Stark. Sansa is a mess. We don’t see her “education.” When is she going to be a player, if ever? So far, Sansa’s activity comes down to being victimized, giving a motivational speech to Theon, and, now, hiding the existence of Vale troops from Jon, while telling him about Blackfish. wtf?
Anyway, I wish they would decide what they’re going to do with Sansa, and do it, and end the brother-sister drama.
It’s probably a good idea to not kill Littlefinger (from Sansa’s pov) just yet. He’s Lord Protector of the Vale and Harrenhall is his. For now those are two locations not actively after the Starks. In the books Sansa was just as good at manipulating Robin as LF. Show Robin seems incapable of actually caring about people when the option of tossing them out the moon door is available, as displayed by that interaction with Royce. I suspect at some point LF will be put to trial for his many crimes against the Starks and Arryns and we’ll learn that the mockingbird can’t fly.
Or he’ll wind up king of the ashes.
Sorry about all the nerding. I just love the mysteries.
Wimsey,
Mrs. Gordon, a tiny thing, gave no indication of being pregnant with our first until after 5 months. And Sansa has more room to hide it. I really hope she’s not with Bolton, but unless she’s sneaking up on 3rd trimester, it wouldn’t be too weird.
Why would the Black Fish’s Tully army be loyal “only” to Sansa any more than Jon Snow’s army?- She didn’t tell Jon how she heard about Riverrun because she didn’t want to start answering the unavoidable questions, “Who? Who is littlefinger? Why was he here? Who was he with? Do you trust him?” etc etc”
Essentially saying that Ramsay got mail short circuits all that- I’m not saying she was right to do that, just what her motivations were in not telling Jon, she told him what she feels is important- Uncle Black Fish has an army we can ally with, how she got that info she deems to be less important or only important to her.
Also the comment that Jon was just as much a Stark as Ramsay is a Bolton was NOT a dig at Jon- it was a response to the likely suggestion that folks might follow a Stark but not a Snow- the Bolton’s troops and allies are following a “Snow”- the Stark supporters should be able to do likewise.
I believe Sansa lied to Jon about Littlefinger because she doesn’t want to work with Littlefinger and nobody else would have rejected his offer. Maybe she thinks Jon and Davos would have forced her to work with him. She wants to do this by herself and with Jon’s help. She is overconfident about the loyalty of the North to the Starks and their capacity to help.
The comparison between Jon and Ramsay didn’t sound good. But, Littlefinger and Davos are telling her Jon isn’t a Stark. But Sansa is a Stark and Ramsay is also a bastard. She has a point.
Sansa didn’t kill Littlefinger because she know she might need him if her plan doesn’t work.
Littlefinger knows she needs The Vale and he will join the Blackfish in Moat Cailin.
This is Littlefinger’s plan to join the North, the Vale and the Riverlands.
POTENTIAL SPOILER:
Pretty sure it was Cersei and/or Qyburn who paid the Faceless Men to murder Lady Crane.
Amirite?
So many dark secrets revealed, it was indeed a very sad episode. Bran, I’m sure, will feel a tremendous guilt regarding Hodor. The final scene sent shivers down my spine… It’s not the first time when innocents die… but another direwolf?! It’s like stripping the Starks of layers of their soul. And poor gentle Hodor, the constant companion and help of the boy who, unwillingly, had changed him… and yet, nothing but devotion on Hodor’s side!
I loved the scene with peaceful Winterfell in its old days, to see young Ned, Benjen and, especially, Lyanna made me very happy. But now, being aware of the tragic side of this golden age I worry more for the Starks.
Do let us know if you do. Other than the obvious things, I’m very clueless as to what they showed in the preview. We know that Sam will have an awkward family dinner (where Randyll may glare at Gilly’s table manners), Jaime will try to free Margaery (not interested in that story), and Dany will ride to conquer some place in Essos. I am more excited for Arya’s choices in Braavos and Bran’s escape from the wights. Meera says ‘forgive me’, I don’t know to whom. Wonder if she hurts him to wake him up? Maybe she will cut his hand with the mark?
It’s possible I suppose, sure. Cersei did only mention to Qyburn that she wants little birds in Westeros locations though.
“Don’t stop at the city. I want little birds in Dorne, in Highgarden, in the north. If someone is planning on making our losses…”
Of course the theatre troupe could have been in Westeros and followed to Braavos too. Not that they’d dare perform their skits in Westeros though.
Because Blackfish is Catelyn’s uncle.
How did all the little birds that report to this site miss casting call for “young man, must be uncircumsized?”
I had read the little birds telling her earlier, sorry. There are a number of ways she could have been told the theatre troupe was making fun of her.
Henry Gordon,
It’s a prosthetic foreskin: can’t you tell?
😀
Wimsey,
Ha. Sure it’s not just a body double with the actor’s “head” digitally substituted?
Well said!
I agree with most of the things in your comment, except for Catelyn’s natural brilliance. (Natural leader, yes. Natural brilliant leader, no. That’s just my opinion, sorry Cat fans!).
We should also consider that while some readers see Cersei as downright evil, some others say they are huge fans of Cersei, and goes to the extend of proclaiming her as one of their favorite characters. Personally, I never understood these people, but I can accept that different persons have different tastes in what they enjoy reading about (and in all other things too). I think it is part of the beauty of this series. It is not a series where we can say “I’m a Harry Potter fan, you are a Harry Potter fan, I feel like we are friends already!”. If I meet another ASOIAF fan, I assess them by who their favorite characters are, which theories they subscribe to etc to determine if we should be kindred spirits or arch enemies 🙂
@maria – And I don’t think the walk of shame was done to create pity for Cersei, but to show the flaws of the religious fanaticism. At least I did not feel a shred of pity for Cersei because of the Walk. I hated being in Cersei’s head for most part of AFFC, but I do not think her overall character arc is bad writing.
Not everything: Ned Stark also was getting a lot of “blame.” Ned was the stupid villain and Tyrion was the clever villain in the play.
Speculations are not spoilers! Besides, why would Cersei want to murder a woman who plays Cersei as she sees herself? Seriously, have you ever seen one of those Simpson’s episodes where they show things from Homer’s memory? That is almost what that was: how it all happened in Cersei’s mind! The play basically villifies the Starks and Tyrion: and it makes her little angel Joffery look like an angel. Seriously, it’s almost like it was a propaganda piece that Qyburn circulated for her.
And Summer. And the Children. And BR. Yeah, Bran needs therapy badly right now. (Or a good romp with Meera: that would cure most teenage male woes! 😀 )
That tends to be the exception rather than the rule, though.
lol… OK, I’ll “fess up”: I didn’t look that closely. (I mean, did anyone count the warts?)
I have no anger or bitterness towards you, I really don’t care about you tbh (sorry).. And I fail to see where I’ve “attacked” you.
I’m not the one ranting on here at nobody in particular, and it was you who attacked me firstly: it’s all here in black and white, plain to see. It’s easy as pie to count posts on chrome- takes one second in fact.
I think you’ll find you’re kinda in the minority when looking at the comments from those who have responded to you. None of whom I know, or who I am friends with.
Wimsey,
Lol. No-I’m afraid I was averting my eyes like a minister’s wife seeing a streaker. I ironically & good-naturedly volunteer that duty to anyone who was complaining about the male frontal nudity deficit (which I suspect is the demographic at which the writers aimed this scene.)
As much as I hate the idea of Sansa lying to Jon, I would lie to my brother too, if the alternative was to try explain my past relationships with someone like Littlefinger. Not to mention that Davos who was Stannis’s Hand would have heard about Littlefinger and discarded the idea as untrustworthy. There is also a small hope that Sansa lied to Jon not because she wanted to hide the truth from him, but from others at the table who will blame her for one reason or other (rejecting an army or trusting littlefinger). But on the Inside the Episode bit about this scene, D&D says that ‘this shows that LF still has some hold over Sansa’ 🙁
Regarding the theory that Yara and Theo is heading to Mereen:
Are you kidding me. Are we really goingto get to hear Tyrions jokes when Grey Worm, Varys and Theon are all gathered in the same room?
Just wanted to marvel at how far we’ve come. In Season One they had to cut away from multiple battles due to budget. Now the sheer level of sophistication in cgi, stuntwork, makeup, prosthetics, fight-choreography, fire, explosions, set design, etc. is truly incredible. And all this not for episode 9 or 10 but episode 5!!
I’ve been on other forums today not related to Game of Thrones/ASOIAF and this episode has absolutely blown people away. On a popular Star Wars forum I’ve read multiple posts about how last night’s episode raises the bar, not just for television, but big-budget films as well. Not in an empty display of mindless action or special effects… But fused with truly heartbreaking emotion in the service of story. Just amazing execution all around. Jack Bender is the man.
Makes me wonder what is in store for us with Sapochnik’s episodes. Have a feeling they’re gonna be epic.
Maggie,
Even if show Black Fish thought Jon Snow was made LC because he collaborated with the Lannisters:
1: How would Sansa know that;
2: Jon and Sansa working together would quickly disabuse him of that notion.
In any event, she didn’t tell Jon that it was LF’s idea because she wanted an army of her own, she didn’t want Jon (or anyone else) asking about Little Finger, if she was deceiving Jon because she wanted an army of her own she wouldn’t have told Jon ANYTHING about the Black Fish.
She’s willing to ask Black Fish for military help because he’s family, he’s blood (and he has the same enemies to boot)- you ask the Vale/LF Army for help- what do you do when you want them to leave? What if they refuse?
Anyway, LF said the Vale’s army was assembling at Moat Cailan- that’s on Northern Territory and it’ll sure as hell get the Bolton’s attention anyway.
El-Bobbie,
I think it has more to do with her not trusting Little-dick(finger).
I think Cersei is clearly a villain, but I don’t think she’s “evil,” Joffrey was evil, Walder Frey is Evil, Ramsay is EVIL.
On a related note, I think Olenna is also a villain, she’s smarter than Cersei, not a gratuitously “mean” person, but she’s not a “good” person either, better than Tywin, but Tywin’s certainly not the bar.
Victoria of the Vale,
Oh come on the best things in life are free. Canon. I’ve never pirated but started this series way back in 2000. I won’t rush master like grrm,but I’ll take it however…I’ll. Pay the iron price.
Just watched again for the third time… Now that I’ve composed myself again I noticed that the 3ER refers to Bran as “Brandon” as they part company, Obi-Wan style. Got me wondering now if perhaps Bran will in some way become (or was) Brandon the builder.
He knows the COTF created the WWs so perhaps they figure out how to keep them at bay, and they work together to construct the Wall to make amends.
We already know that he can interact with (and perhaps influence) the past/present/future after all.
If he ain’t gonna build it… He’s sure as hell gonna be involved in it coming down!
Finally watched the episode. I avoided any further spoilers, but I was already spoilt regarding the deaths of Leaf, Summer and Hodor.
That was an intense end of this episode. I cried, it was so heartbreaking, I did not fully understand what happened but I can accept that it’s a result of a time loop and I am fine with that.
I love Euron, perfect cast.
I also find the High Priestess great.
You make a fair point…think about it though…Cersei makes a comment about “paying a faceless man” to off someone in an earlier season, the actress in question is portraying Cersei (good, bad, or indifferent), and just the poetry of Arya being, for all intents and purposes, a hired killer for Cersei are the reasons why I think it’s going this direction. Not to mention, we’ve already seen an example of how they’re dealing with people trashing her (although, she wasn’t necessarily being trashed in last night’s episode).
Arya even asks who wants her killed, which leads me to believe there’s more to it than just the other actress being jealous.
Oh, and with regard to the spoiler comment, I go way out of the way to warn of spoilers, speculative or not. People are sensitive these days, haha.
Really?? It was Bran’s voice Varys hears? Where did you get that? I don’t remember that from the book.
*raises hand shyly* I also use the abbreviation Daeny. I don’t know, Dany sounds just too simple for her in my ears. Not that Daeny means fooook all anyway. Just my choice. Lately I have even started writing out her whole name. *shrugs
In the TV version, it has happened four times this season alone – the Sand Snakes, Thorne and Company, Ramsay, and now Euron. Kinslaying and assassinating your Lord Commander are no big deal in the TV version of the story.
Apollo,
Great then the feeling is mutual- so in the future you can just overlook my posts since they irritate you so much. And I don’t make comments on here for “popularity” contests. How very high schoolish is that thought?? I make comments because I can express my opinion like anyone else REGARDLESS if you agree or not.
The Onion Knight,
Noway he will be all ice .
I also reckon it’s camp Cersei who’ve paid the FM to deal with the actress, I mentioned it one of the other threads.
She specifically instructed Qyburn to use the LBs to root out anyone slandering her, far and wide. Now, I get that Lady C has so far portrayed Cersei in a positive light- we don’t know how the show ends though. Perhaps there’s a scene with Jaime to come or even the Walk of Shame.
It just doesn’t add up that the younger actress would be the FMs customer, there wasn’t any indication of animosity between the two.
I really can’t see Arya throwing away all that training and suffering by refusing to give the gift just because she thought the actress “seemed decent enough”. She hardly knows this woman. Her decision to turn her back on the FM has to be due to something she feels very, very strongly about. Like last season with Trant- and especially after Trant in fact. Who else could elicit such a response after all that other than Cersei?
Ice Spider,
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Dammit D&D, of course you can’t give us a happy Stark reunion. One episode in and Sansa is lying to Jon, Inside the Episode tells us that Sansa isn’t a clean pure Stark and she doesn’t really trust Jon.
D&D essentially told us that Sansa doesn’t have the right intentions “clean and pure” with Jon. She’s forced him into this war, and I LOVE Jon and Sansa together but it was so so so so so so clear to me that Sansa’s demeanor when she gave Jon the cloak was manipulation. It didn’t feel genuine AT ALL. It felt entirely like she was being Margaery, and Jon, who in some ways is still so naive was touched instead of seeing what she’s doing. That whole small council style meeting, Jon was just staring at Sansa – I think he really doesn’t know what to make of her and her intentions. And then with the cloak, she wins him over again.
D&D told us that she doesn’t have the purest intentions. LF already planted the half-brother seed in her mind. I said at the beginning of the season that I don’t think Sansa and Jon are 1000% on the same side and this episode proved it.
I don’t understand why people are making excuses for her lies. If Sansa told Jon the truth – her history with LF, how she ended up marrying Ramsay (seriously, are you all assuming Jon didn’t even ask “how/why did you marry him? OF COURSE HE KNOWS), and that LF came back but Sansa turned her back on him because she doesn’t trust him, you think Jon wouldn’t support her??? OF COURSE he would’ve, and Sansa, knowing what Jon has been through, should know that. The fact that she lied shows it’s not because she’s embarrassed about LF, it’s that there’s something else at work – she doesn’t want him to know there’s an army that could be loyal to her alone.
Apollo,
Has the show established a market value for a FM? I thought they were extremely expensive and not necessarily accepting of cash money. Seems strange that an actress made an enemy so large to justify that kind of price. Or maybe what they want is her face
affc talk in spoiler
aabe,
Meera says: “I am so sorry”. My speculation is that she says it to Bran, probably while he is still in warging state, when she thinks they are going to die and she has failed him and couldn’t protect him, then the dark figure we saw in the trailer appears and saves them.
Not on the show as far as I can tell. But seeing as Cersei is penniless and the crown are heavily in debt to the Iron Bank, then maybe that’s why it’s not been mentioned 😉
That seems more likely! Maybe Arya’s difficult choice will be to decide if she should kill an innocent person just to collect their face. But she should realize that it is all part of the job.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I’m sure they have stunt-women too, but you can see they at least do some of it, if not most of it. Just like you can tell the Sand Snake actresses do a fair bit of their stunts based off of how badly it looks.
The difference is Maisie and Faye look damn good doing their fights. Also, and I could be totally wrong about this, I THINK I remember seeing some behind the scenes thing where Maisie did the jump off her back, but had wires to assist. I 100% remember her talking about doing fight choreography with the contact lenses in because she said she was actually blind and had to rely on other people to make sure she didn’t hit anyone/get hit herself.
Ice Spider,
Fore shadow he asked If the girl had decided she said she had decided it wasn’t a lie cause she didn’t get hit like last season she’s decided to go back to her family who she now realizes she abandoned .the play made her mind up.she has decided to not serve the many faced god .
The very second this episode was over I sat back and said out loud (to no one I was by myself) well this is one I won’t be watching again. I was the same after the red wedding.
Hurts too much
It WAS brilliant though, and loved it right up till the end! He HELD the door! And omg Summer.
Ginevra,
Yes,I agree…Poor Ned was portrayed like Captain Caveman 🙁 I guess that´s how more cosmopolitan peoples still see the North
Just re-watched the scene. There’s no visible friction between the actresses and Jaqen is evasive when Arya asks him who paid for the gift, and says that servants of the many faced God don’t ask questions. Yet in S5 he’s fairly open and explains the reason behind Aryas first assignment at the harbourside. Maybe he’s more secretive after her last transgression or he’s withholding the truth for another reason.
I don’t understand how anyone can claim that Sansa is “using” Jon to fight for her, when Ramsey himself threatened Jon, the Wildlings along with Sansa. Jon isn’t fighting Sansa’s war. Sansa knows Ramsey and she knows that as long as he’s warden of the North, none of them will be safe and it turns out she was right! Because only moments later Ramsey sent the letter threatening all of them, so how can Sansa be ‘using’ Jon? Why the selective memory? At this point they don’t have a choice but to take back Winterfell, it’s no longer a question of whether or not Sansa wants revenge on Ramsey (which I’m sure she does). He literally threatened all of them.
Then there’s whole “she compared Jon to Ramsey” thing as if it was said with any malicious intent. She was making a point that even though Ramsey is Roose Bolton’s bastard he still managed to get support from some northern houses, so Jon’s ‘bastard’ status shouldn’t be a big deal either. Hence Jon is just as much Ned’s son as Ramsey is Roose’s. That’s the extent of the comparison. If we see Jon reacting negatively to her words, it’s not a reflection of her intentions, but his own internal baggage with his status as Ned’s bastard (which we know he has a ton of)
My issue with the Sansa criticism isn’t that people are criticizing her, but it’s like logic and reason flies out of the window in order to do so. Her actions are exaggerated and even taken out of context to make them seem more nefarious they really are. This is very typical for female characters in almost any fandom. If people want to criticize Sansa for lying to Jon, that’s fine. I don’t think that was really a smart move on her part, but I guess I’m more interested in learning more about why she’s holding back information from him. I have my theories as to why but I know the show will probably address it soon.
Bran could raise his own army of undead “cold hands” if he wants to get him and Meera back to the wall safe. He knows it’s possible in the books but not in the show!
I know it’s been discussed before, but Hodor is a translated name of the Norse God associated with Winter and cold. If we didn’t see him die… ?. Maybe the WW will turn his scrambled egg mind into a Giant-blooded Blue Eyed Death Machine! Valar Morghulis.
Side note,
That is, of course, if my previous comment regarding Hodor is off by chance. But c’mon, that Beautiful Simpleton could run shit all over the North. Might be a satisfying twist haha.
LonRice,
Agreed. I feel like a lot of people are still trying to rationalize Sansa-heart for some reason. Dark Sansa doesn’t seem like it’s happening. She’s barely starting to play the game at this point, never mind go beyond it. I get that the “Behind the Episode” pointed toward some weird things for her and why she lied, but people are reading into it WAY too much right now. Let’s actually wait and see what happens.
Also, I wouldn’t say people do this to Sansa cause she’s female. There are plenty of female characters people don’t complain about in this story, whether or not it happens in other fandoms. Sansa has taken a bad rap ever since season 1. She came off as spoiled and a lot of people blamed her for making Ned’s situation worse (despite her making moves for the opposite without Joffrey’s intervention). Ever since, anything she does is questioned and complained about. Other than that, I agree completely.
OMFG-Meera Reed is a book
Zoilo,
With a shortened episode count for seasons 7 and 8, I don’t think budget will limit them if they want to show those things. In fact, saving budget money is probably the main idea in limiting the episodes so they can have all the Ice Spiders we can dream of!
its funny how people try to find reason toward her lies and react like she is in complete control when the character herself doesn’t even know why she lied to him…and some even think she had the last word agains littlefinger
D&D said themself that sansa is under the control of baelish and pretty much bring doubt in her hype
sophie turner herself said that sansa will be a bit selfish despite knowing that jon is her big brother and davos older and wiser (by the way she was a bitch with him too)
she don’t trust davos and mel but the irony is that brienne is actually the one who have the most questionable loyalty of all others
-davos lost evrything and have nothing to lose
-mel will follow jon everywhere
-tormund sees jon as mance 2.0
brienne have a crush for a lannister,have a lannister sigil on her sword (who is by the one part of “ice”) in the book she came to a very difficult situation in the books when she have to choose between jaime and the oath she made to catelyn…
so if sansa trust jon but not davos she still have a “lack of faith” in jon….
no matter the reason behind it she DID manipulate jon i saw a lot of margeary in her in this ep….and i am sure at 100% that she will lie to him again
I was so shocked about last night’s episode. Poor Hodor and Summer 🙁
This season is so good.
In this website, not many things manage to raise my eyebrow, but this did. 🙂
Let Benjen return in next episode, and if Jorah finds Gerion while searching for a cure for grayscale, we can call this the Season of Returning Nuncles.
aabe,
Ha. Life list box checked! ? The exact language when I read it in your post triggered the tinfoil lobe of my brain.
Although-if it does happen, I will do the biggest mikedrop in history. While moonwalking off stage.
Godswood,
Hodor is sure part.stark or 1st men’s blood at the.least maybe another shiny blue rose to put a chinc in that.wall.real ones stand out better than all those goofy skeletons .
Henry Gordon,
Explain meera Reed being a book.sorry man?
I don’t think he forgot about that. Didn’t Sansa also know Lysa and him killed Jon Arryn? I don’t recall that clearly. But, we all saw how he turned the tables on Lord Royce in ep4. LF could do that as well to Sansa. He could also tell people and Sweetrobin that it’s her who pushed Lysa through the Moon Door.
For now, LF is gonna play Sansa. Hard. He already started with the Blackfish story he told her and his parting shot, “Half-brother.” It was so smart of him to put the Tullys into the mix because he knew they didn’t have any love for Jon (that slime!). They might fight for Sansa, but definitely not Jon. He’s planted the seeds. Sansa may not know it yet but LF definitely still has a hold on her. The lie she told Jon didn’t seem deliberate but unconsciously, she’s already keeping some things to herself because of the seeds LF has planted.
The writers seem bent on adding drama to the Stark team-up and that’s understandable. I can see people getting riled up about it (pro-Sansa and pro-Jon). I think leading to the battle, there will be tension between the two. And why not? They’re not really close growing up and they just met again after so many years. It will be surprising/out-of-character if they would be agreeing and hugging it out all the time. In the end, it will be so satisfying to see LF thinking he has manipulated Sansa and has put a wedge between her and Jon only to find out in the end she’s the one who manipulated him. Is Sansa smart enough not to pull it off? We’ll see. This is GOT though so I’ll prepare myself nonetheless for another ‘bad guy’ victory.
Rich,
“little lords”
Yes! Me too!
Dylanstargaryian,
Well, in the books, (book spoilers)
Which is exactly what Meera says to Bran (?) in the next episode…
akuze,
Asnas it almost. As bad as joffrey spoiled little naive princess Tully blood in her
Godswood,
Maybe not dead just a different life all shiny and blue. They mislead us about them
Sam,
I hope you are right and LFs plan fails and Sansa and Jon stick together
Im not down for any stark drama
They have been through enough
And in tired of the bad guys winning all the time…. Especially that slime ball
It’s time for bad guys to go down so the good guys can fight the real bad guys (?) the WW
Also, isn’t it pretty huge that the three eyed raven is dead now? What does that mean for the WW? Are they even more powerful now?
The 3ER new his death was coming, that was a actually a very sad moment
Nadia,
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-sansa-stark-sophie-turner-20160523-snap-story.html
Sansa is the worst stark ever.I hope she stays with Tully’s.sesame street. Puppets
Henry Gordon,
Henry Gordon,
Aha no spoilier for me read all that’s out.she does have a big part yet to play.twin maybe .she so mirrors lyanna starks as protecting person kinda mirrors Jon in looks and the name meera mirror.
Rygritte,
There is a big hand in play he is just the pinky still silly sansa just wraps around it.
Nadia,
Agreed! I love Sansa, more so than I love Jon, but her giving Jon the cloak did NOT feel genuine at all. It totally felt manipulative like you said. She’s playing up to Jon’s desire to be a Stark to get him to fight for Winterfell and take it back FOR HER. And she knows she has to since she basically had to beg him to want to fight anyway. Once it’s back in their possession, I have no doubt that Sansa is going to want control of it. She IS the true born Stark after all.
Let’s hope! To me, LF is up there with Ramsay in terms of the characters I love to hate. In fact, he’s even more dangerous than Ramsay as he does things in a sneaky, non-obvious way. He needs to die in the hands of the Starks as he’s the one who started their downfall. Sansa is the closest one who can do that. I hope she plays her cards right.
El-Bobbie,
I thought she made it for him so that he would look the part.
Shhhhhhhh!!!! We prefer the code name, “Canadians”! 😉
Pigeon,
Sory!
Ice Spider,
Blood raven is a targ bran is a very young stark.old man just looked like anyone’s grandpa.Easy for a wise man who plotted for years for all that to happen. Fishy ….?blood raven was very loyal to his house targ despite being a bastard.he is molesting bran to his own ends ..?and that was the featherest death …I’ve seen. He could see the future. Right.
El-Bobbie,
Ugh
Sam,
If arya forgives her for being so stupid I will .begging to marry that joffrey .and falling for everything along the way .she’s a great actress at fucking shit up all.the time. Go ahead and kill you another stark if it gets me the next book. She seems all Tully to.me like her mom couldnt figure that ned would keep a secret from her .the honorable Ned stark says he has a boy. U know me .? Come on.
.
Dee,
Dee,
Dee,
Dee,
Dee,
Dee,
Godswood,
U may have a good point in ur spoiler there only its backwards .bran the breaker? Go south instead of north. But I kinda want bran to side with the others.he will have to choose and I believe he is kin to the nights king. He touched him like family.. Kinda opposite of the look he give to snow last year.like what r u I only know there’s alil kin ship there. My opinion.
Well, there goes my hopes for some sort of meeting between direwolves and dragons…
I feel so far removed from the collective emotional rollercoaster, I just wanna drop by and say….. damn. What an episode. Apparently the only good thing about being a day behind watching these last two weeks is that I didn’t see anything about the leaked episode.
Fuck. That ending really raised the bar for this show, yet again. Brutal. So much impact going full circle (in this case, through the fabric of the space time continuum no less) with a beloved character.
I am digging the “concentric spirals” WW motif. Mirrors how they left the dead way back in S1 (I think) “ever the artists”
yeah love the spiral wheel.of time ever repeating.bran is key to breaking and rebuildingthe world .its all getting really fucked up. Ice vs fire and poor Jon to take the fall in they end?Jason,
I guess I just do not understand how a show this hugely popular can have budget problems…
Jason,
But how do you know it’s due to budget problems
Too much ice and too much fire aren’t good for the world that already seems to have been screwed with by cof.in my opinion the only way is to break the wall and the far north off of the continent of westerous given all life a place in a world.southrous is a place mentioned not to go to. Ww need there winter abode all comes to balance. After all is broken.
Jack Bauer 24,
Fuckin Moon boy for all we know
Sam,
Her mother made over.a Tully army taking winter fell would not stand.
Ice Spider,
This article is from 2015 lol
I’m sad and hoping someone will give feedback. It gets lonely at night with the shift I currently have to work so I come on-line to have a bit of communication with other human beings to whom I have something in common and for some reason most of the time my posts get ignored. Not a social butterfly so it doesn’t have to be much, but like, I’ll reply to a few different ones and get not even a word back, which I can understand cause maybe they feel there’s nothing to add, except for then I scroll down a ways and see where someone else said something to the person on the same subject and they get replied to. I understand at a busy site this will happen, BUT it’s repeated to the point where I just have to wonder what is wrong. I have asperger’s syndrome. Maybe this is apparent somehow through the computer? If so, that really sucks 🙁
Quite simply the best GoT episode for about two seasons or more. When the show hits its stride like this, I feel myself wanting to whoop out loud and cheer and talk to every single person about it, like, even the postman who never smiles.
Wonderful write up as always Sue. As a daily reader and very occasional poster, I’d like to say that WotW has become integral to my GoT experience. I cried all over again in the description for the Hold The Door scene.
Right now it’s all so fresh, my mind has just been blown wide open. But soon I’ll return and read the fallout and the theories from all the great commenters here.
I would truly like to see that! I love the Shakespearian play within the play motif and it also looks great in the play “within the series” variant.
Queen Nym,
I enjoyed your parallel with A Midsummer Night’s Dream! To have an actor to play the GOT wall would have been hilarious!
Hello egritte I’ve kinda been feeling the same way .I’ve only started posting 2 days ago .seem to be ignored even with all the post. And I’ve done a bunch since the best show of the series.
Hello I’ve kinda been feeling the same way .I’ve only started posting 2 days ago .seem to be ignored even with all the post. And I’ve done a bunch since the best show of the series.
ygritte,
ygritte,
Speaking of it be kinda nice for arya to get that one face for Jon. She could give Jon both of the girls he loved.
ygritte,
Dylanstargaryian,
It’s very slow at this time… preaty late in America and quite early in Europe.
Also I think the leak ”helped” in this regard, some people discussed the episode earlier and may not really want to repeat the entire debate twice…Like me..
I wonder if anything has ever been this big before its finished.seem like he’s putting all our history’s and twisting them in to this saga.gotta be hard .it’d not finished but he’s taken the crown from Tolkien. Think I compared him to suess earlier. I thought his would be on top forever. Grrm take your time finish when ever. Just don’t need a R Jordan.
Dylanstargaryian,
Well I for one think we are aproching the end..after this season will have only 13-15 houres left.
But I agree that I’m quite suprised at the fast pace this season has, pleseantly suprised!
I didn’t think will move the story so fast. Glad I was wrong!
Well at least u and ygrite talk back I’ve been off and on all day with no feed back or tearing down my way of putting it together. To me all of hey this isn’t like other fantasy at all.if u know how much is foreshadowed to us .it’s all there to chew on.
It also made me upset to see the way the main characters were presented. So much for the theatre revealing truth! But I liked noticing that Arya was still a Stark and I felt sorry for her remembering the whole Baelor scene.
ygritte,
Awww
I don’t know if you ever responded to me but I’m usually good at responding to everyone who comments to me
Usually I search through all the comments but I’m travelling right now and I only am using my iPhone which can be very tedious with all the comments
ygritte,
Oh if I’m one of those who didn’t reply, so sorry about that. Sometimes 2-3 people would comment the same thing to my post and I might reply only to 1, thinking that the other 2 would see that as a reply to them, too. There are times also when I don’t get to re-visit the chat.
Dylanstargaryian,
In the article with a link upthread, Sophie did mention Sansa is not purely a Stark (or something like that) because of all the sufferings she experienced in the past. I wouldn’t say she’s 100% Tully though. There’s still a Stark deep inside her, for sure.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think that was in the Twins. Walder is too old and frail to leave, I imagine
JCDavis,
haha well I have a nickname like the ones I described and I find it hella annoying when people constantly spell it wrong, so it’s a little personal. 🙂 And after all we have the books to tell us that Dany is her preferred spelling.
But I know what you mean. It’s like all these characters with random “normal” (nick) names like Ned and Jon and Dany and Jaime but then also weird names like Tywin, Viserys, Tyrion etc. It almost takes you out of the universe when you see the normal ones…
ygritte,
I am sorry I didn’t reply to your comments directly! But, I felt like we were having a conversation, all the same… I have limited time to post so usually for a given topic I may only get to some of the replies (Especially if I feel like I’d be saying the same thing twice). In future I’ll try to include all relevant posters in my reply so everyone is included explicitly. 🙂
Ah, but it does reveal a truth. It reveals how the rest of the world sees Westeros in general and Northerners in particular.
ygritte, Dylanstargaryian,
Aww don’t feel ignored guys *hugs both of you*. I felt the same way when I first started posting, but if you look through a couple of threads you’ll see that probably the large majority of posts don’t actually get replied to. I see lots of comments on here I’m surprised don’t get any obvious response. There are far more lurkers than posters anyway so plenty of people will read what you’ve said and probably agree with it/think it’s interesting, funny etc but just don’t reply. Especially when there are threads with loads of comments, it can take hours just to skim read them all.
If you’d really like people to reply try saying something like “what does everyone else think” in your post or pick someone else’s you like and reply to it to get a conversation going. Most people on here are really friendly and nice, it can just take a while to get used to the relative lack of interaction, which isn’t in any way a reflection on you. Ygritte for example, I recognise your name from other threads, when I see it, it’s like “Oh it’s Ygritte I wonder what she thinks about this episode?” even though I don’t think we’ve ever directly ‘chatted’ on here 😀
And also how the smallfolk see the ‘game of thrones’ that the nobility play.
Hey please go read my last 2, post all way at the bottom all spoils
“Oh and Benioff and Weiss? “I feel the winds of winter as they lick across the land!” Yeah, we see you.”
But this was a Cogman episode…
ygritte, being ignored here can sometimes be a good sign. It might just mean that you’re not pushing anyone’s buttons!
If you like, we can debate the Behaviorists’ hypothesis that negative attention is more reinforcing than no attention at all… ; )
Dylanstargaryian, nothing personal, but I for one tend not to read all the way through posts that don’t use capitalization where needed, or that skip over punctuation, or that use texting shorthand like ‘u’ for you. They are too hard on my old eyes, which are often very tired from many hours of editing when I pop in here. Make reading your posts easier to read instead of quicker to type, and I predict that you’ll get more feedback.
“Cmon now?” For the Aerys theory? Why? Why is it so implausible given what we’ve seen here re: Hodor?
Sorry I’ve been posting 2 days is all.could u please read my 2 post this morning on early spoilers always at bottom .please I need the feed back.pretty positive I just cracked the princess that was promised.
Not according to the HBO schedule.
Now you’ve provoked a train of thought in me that wasn’t what you intended…
I’m a huge fan of British Isles traditional music. The old balladry tradition is absolutely bursting with themes that are right at home in Planetos: lots of gore, murder, treachery, sorcery – even songs about brother/sister incest.
One of the structural motifs that pops up over and over is a sequence of questions or challenges whose required responses are horse/hounds/hawk (not necessarily in that order) and finally some significant human. The example that is most familiar (because it gets most highly anthologized) is ‘Lord Randall,’ in which the mother asks her grown son why his sword is covered with blood, and he first replies that he killed his hawk, then his hounds, then his horse. He’s finally forced to admit that he murdered his father (chillingly, at his mother’s instigation).
This convention appears in many, many medieval ballads – another example is ‘King Henry,’ where the king, abandoned by all his terrified men in a haunted hunting lodge, has to feed the ‘grisly ghost’ his horse, his hounds and his hawk. Her last demand is that he give her his own body and promise to wed her. (Luckily, she turns out to be a glamoured ‘Loathly Lady’ who is testing his chivalry, and when he wakes the next morning after satisfying all her wishes, ‘The fairest lady that e’er was seen/Lay betwixt him and the wall.’)
Maybe this is a big stretch, to connect Bran’s having to sacrifice his ‘horse’ and his ‘dog’ with that tradition; but I suspect that GRRM has at least some familiarity with these common conventions of medieval folklore (not that we know that all this will happen quite this way in the books). And one might make the argument that the Three-Eyed Raven/Crow fills the niche of the sacrificed hawk…
Fun to think about, anyway.
Anyone tell if they have seen my theory can’t take credit if it s already out its in early spoils all at bottom. Thank u may enjoy.
Firannion,
Would u check out the princess that’s been promised think it all there. Its on early spoiler at bottom. Need to know if its original. I’ve not seen it buy…
To me Cersei definitely has a lot of parallels with scheming, ambitious Queen Gertrude. Hamlet even characterizes her marrying the brother of her late husband (whom of course she murdered) as incest. So, setting aside the Valonqar Prophecy for a moment, accidentally drinking from a poisoned cup intended for someone else seems like a fitting way for her to die. Maybe we will see the switched-cup trope happen among the mummers’ troupe instead of it actually happening to Cersei? Maybe another player unexpectedly fancies a tot of rum?
Fairport Convention fan?
Dylanstargaryian,
I did read your posts but I’m not a fantasy fan so am no good on the supernatural elements of the story as they don’t interest me enough to pay attention to all the detail and develop any theories. I’m just in it for the normal humans arguing among themselves part which I could talk about all day, particularly if it involves plotting Ramsay’s downfall! 😉 It’s still early in the day for posters from North, Central and South America (who make up a good chunk of us) so hang on a bit for them to join in 🙂
Another episode, another mention of House Manderly.
Could we finally be a go for Operation Pies?
ghost of winterfell,
I agree. Sansa and John plotting to re-take Winterfell is all kinds of fun, but it’s distracting Jon from what HE KNOWS is his real mission, stopping the White Walkers and Wights.
Love this guy. 🙂
http://screencrush.com/game-of-thrones-kristofer-hivju-on-shipping-tormund-interview/
MASSIVE Fairport Convention fan! Steeleye Span almost equally so. I wish GoT would use their music for trailers, end credits etc. Such a perfect fit.
And you?
Dylanstargaryian
May 24, 2016 at 9:01 am
Dylanstargaryian:
I got to work this morning had a thought. Princess was promised to the nights king. Bargain was made .blood raven somehow found out.and has been trying to keep it from happening. Killing off those starks that have to keep the deal.oh yeah and those spirals off bodies in first episode sure looks like a sign .hey where is my princess? Again in the last show saw same spiral “sure could pass for danys sigil.another reason Ned didn’t want Robert to kill her he knew she was promised to the nights king.and as long as she is across sea .he may believe he isn’t responsible any more.
Oh yes, for sure, have been to a few Fairport concerts locally in the past, in the days of Allcock and Mattacks. Of course the Sandy Denny period is unbeatable. They and Steeleye Span were my introduction to traditional songs of Britain and Ireland.
A Fairport Convention cameo on the show would be magic!
aabe,
I have been thinking about it a lot, and even though I posted similar in other comments, after watching that scene again I have anothertake. it doesn’t mean I am disagreeing it just means I saw something else going on in this scene. I saw Sansa sitting there while all the seasoned warrior types were discussing the battle and the politics of raising an army, and finally she had something to contribute. She was almost excited, smiling when she was able to tell them something they didn’t know. When Jon asked, “Where did you hear that” it reminded me of some high school kids when she said, in effect, Oh, I heard it before I escaped from Ramsay. it was also to let Jon know she had her sources too. Sansa wants to be an equal participant with something to contribute, so she is doing a little bit of game playing here. I do think the possibility of being betrayed once again by Liyylefinger is very real. He definitely wants to get rid of Jon Snow. The only Stark he wants at Winterfell is Sn=ansa who can produce an heir. In that respect he & Ramsay are the same. Except Littlefinger wants to control everything:The Vale, the Riverlands, The North, and eventually the Iron Throne.
Dear gods. Imagine them playing acoustic, clad in medieval garb in the background of some scene. Or they could totally wreck ‘Rains of Castamere,’ with Dave Pegg taking over the cello line on electric bass!
And what better way to ramp up excitement during some climactic battle charge than putting the instrumental windup to ‘Matty Groves’ on the soundtrack? ‘With me, brothers! Swarb’s demon fiddle drives us on! Let’s go out and kill them!’
Sorry. Fairport fangirling.
trarecar,
Benjen (& Coldhands) are marked. That’s why they can’t return to (or cross) the Wall.
Firannion,
Well, we can dream!
ygritte,
I don’t think people ignore your comments! It happens to all of us because the site is growing and growing (glad about it!) and it’s almost impossible to read all the comments (believe me, I tried!) – if you are not Sue, who is Wonderwoman, but as far as I know that’s only one Sue the Fury! The others just skip comments, choosing the topics they are the most interested in or people they are the most familiar with. Sometimes it happens that, after forcing oneself to read everything in a particular thread, one finds nothing to say (because the same things have already been said for a lot of times) or ignores what happens in other threads. I hope this helps 🙂
Wimsey,
I’m a romantic girl, in spite of my efforts, so I’m a natural-born shipper! Bran & Meera would be great match imo – but I don’t let myself hope too much.
About theatre revealing truth, I meant Arya hadn’t learnt anything new about Westeros while watching the play. Her epiphany consisted only in her remaining a Stark.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Lol on Sansa comparing Jon to Ramsey.
I’m sure her acknowleding his sacrifice will be consolation when he has an ax sticking out of his gut.
But, I think you’re being tongue-in-cheek?
Chad Brick,
I see your point. I don’t disagree with you on the other three instances, as it does seem to be downplayed a good deal. We can’t deny that Ramsay will meet a black fate for what he has done, but it’s odd that northern houses (major ones at that) would flock to him after the kinslaying… If the sand snakes pop back up with support of the whole dornish people I can’t say I’d be surprised given the nature of their storyline but it would ridiculous. But on the subject of Ironborn, I still stand by the idea that their whole anti-chivalry “take what is ours” and “pay the iron price” is more important to them than a little bit of kinslaying. I think Euron reminded them of that.
So do you think that Bran will cross the Wall despite knowing the consequences?
Revisiting season 6 trailer, the hooded man on horseback appears to be in the same area as Bran and Meera is in ep6 preview. If you freeze frame, you can see something that could be Bran’s sledge lying on the ground. Maybe Meera leaves Bran and runs away, hoping to distract the wights from Bran? She knows he can’t survive alone, but if she runs away and throw the wights off scent, maybe there is a slight chance that she can return to Bran and save him? It is a mad plan with less than 1 percent chance of success, but with Meera pulling Bran versus an army of wights, they have zero chance of survival.
LawofFury,
Based on…..?
Ice Spider,
As someone who has *not through choice* moved abroad, cannot afford a TV or a license and is not even sure that they show it in my country outside of the super expensive premium channels and has been watching the show since the beginning… if I didn’t download it I would no longer be able to watch it. Some of us would LOVE to be able to watch it on TV, LOVE to be able to buy the DVD box sets and see all the extra’s and commentary, but we are not privileged enough to have that opportunity. One day when I can afford it I will buy the box sets, until then I will be a fan and download the episodes and recommend the series to anyone that will listen and I will not feel bad about that.
Waxfoot,
Nicely stated – Sue you do an amazing job, don’t know how I would feed my addiction to ASOIAF or GoT without this site ??
Shadow Shifter,
Yes, What Shadow Shifter said. Painful & sad defeat, & set back for the Starks. Had to restrain myself from throwing any object at the tv when we lost Summer. Hearing those yelps of pain….heart wrenching.
Deirdre,
I’ll second that! Big Kudos to you Sue for allowing my obsession to continue Monday thru Saturday. And while I’m not complaining, so much, that the series is now taking a (seemingly) RAPID move forward. I’m not totally thrilled because I worry that D&D will eliminate points in the books that we would be looking forward to seeing on screen, certain questions answered, points touched upon…
Cattu,
Info age get it however u can .and screw the rest and there opinions on pirates only pirates here are grey joys
But be careful some folks are quick to judge, with only what u put here to go by. U will be scorned by some . I wish all could enjoy this wonderful show.
But be careful some folks are quick to judge, with only what u put here to go by. U will be scorned by some . I wish all could enjoy this wonderful show.
Wimsey,
Great job we are only given half of one sided history, and ol nan,is sure to know most of the north myths or folklore. Probably more half truths.
Lulus Mum,
I’d be down for that. Being a book reader, I’m not opposed to spoilers.
The Onion Knight,
How do we know that? Because I can’t remember reading this in the books…(?)
Sam,
Not to mention that Summer could’ve easily pulled that sled carrying Bran …allowing them to gtfo. Ugh. (sniffle)
Jack Bauer 24,
Ahh crap! Hadn’t thought about that! Now what?!