Game of Thrones Season 6 Episode 3 “Oathbreaker” Recap Round-Up

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Fans and critics alike have more than enough to be joyful for this week with flashbacks, schemes, and justice in a Game of Thrones episode filled to the brim with Starks.

“And now it begins.”

In Watchers’ own reviews, Sue (Sullied) is absolutely gleeful for Ser Arthur and the highly anticipated Tower of Joy while Oz offers the Unsullied insight, relishes in the memorable flashback and set up the episode provided for our characters.

Since this episode contained moments from the book series and the past, some authors are noted as Sullied or Unsullied. Be sure to still exercise caution when reading some reviews for book spoilers.

Myles McNutt, A.V. Club (Sullied) – In support of the show’s decision to hold off on Lyanna in the Tower, McNutt applauds the flashback and the newly resurrected Jon Snow.

Alyssa Rosenberg, The Washington Post (Sullied) – Raving for the character development of Dany, Arya, and Jon, Rosenberg declares “Oathbreaker” the best of Season 6 yet.

Sean T. Collins, Rolling Stone – Collins remarks on Jon’s return, the messiness of magic, and Rickon Stark.

Rob Bricken, io9 – Bricken is still reeling from the fact that Game of Thrones is not only passing the books but racing downhill towards its endgame. He rejoices for a different Jon Snow, the Tower of Joy, and the anger and rebellion swelling up in our characters.

James Hibberd, Entertainment Weekly – Hibberd delves into House Stark, the continuation of Season 6’s major death streak, and Kit Harington in “Oathbreaker.”

Sarah Hughes, The Guardian (Sullied) – Appreciating the slower pace of the episode, Hughes discusses advancing plot lines, the truth and what it means for our characters.

Neil Miller, Film School Rejects – Miller examines the Starks’ past, present, and future and the Prince That Was Promised.

Daniel D’Addario, Time – Reflecting on Jon Snow’s return, D’Addario notes the multiple characters grappling with faith in “Oathbreaker.”

David Crow, Den of Geek – Crow discusses the episode’s shifting momentum as the series drifts farther from the books and deeper into the unknown.

Angela Watercutter, Wired – Commenting on the seemingly endless build-up thus far in the series, Watercutter makes further adjustments to her dead pool now that Jon Snow is back in the Game.

Alan Sepinwall, Hitfix – Sepinwall also calls this episode the “most satisfying installment of Season 6 so far” and credits that to the supreme storytelling in “Oathbreaker.”

Brandon Norwalk, A.V. Club (Unsullied) – In what he thought was a “moody” episode, Norwalk reviews oath breakers and the thrill of the Tower of Joy.

Jen Chaney, Vulture – Chaney comments the excellence of the episode’s name, the tease at the Tower of Joy, and the moments of levity “Oathbreaker” provided.

Stephanie Merry, The Washington Post – Merry dives into the return of Rickon Stark, the ominous Ramsay Bolton and what the combination means for the rest of the season.

Sonia Saraiya, Salon – Saraiya notes the many surprises this episode and the resolution of some plots in “Oathbreaker.”

Laura Stone, Hey, Don’t Judge Me (Unsullied) – Stone cheers for another exciting addition to Season 6.

Welcome new addition David Rosenblatt, an occasional WotW contributor (you may recognize him as SirSquinty from the Memory Lane series) who breaks down “Oathbreaker” and discusses the Queen of Nothing, Shaggydog, and Jon Snow.

Stay tuned for Bex’s video recap round-up later this week where she’ll gather the best Game of Thrones-themed videos following “Oathbreaker.”

Who were your favorite reviewers? Have any additions we should check out? Let us know below!

120 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Olly Olly hangin’ from a tree, d -e-a-d as dead as can be. Oh happy days.

      It will always be Laura Stone. While I enjoy reading others, I am thoroughly entertained by Ms. Laura.

        Quote  Reply

    2. How anyone could’ve been happy with the horrible rushed ToJ flashback is beyond me, not to mention that DandD are further butchering this series
      People are way too easily pleased.

        Quote  Reply

    3. Warm reviews this week, even from some of those ehi complained about Jon’s resurrection last week. Perhaps there’s a lesson in there for them: don’t judge a plot development until you’ve actually seen the consequences of it. The way Jon’s rebirth was handled was perfectly done, imo.

        Quote  Reply

    4. StannisGotScrewed:
      How anyone could’ve been happy with the horrible rushed ToJ flashback is beyond me, not to mention that DandD are further butchering this series
      People are way too easily pleased.

      Agreed. it’s mostly about the already known characters and much awaited events and revealing secrets, but this season differs so much from the previous ones …. it’s to see that it’s not a filmed book anymore, there are no those details and hints that Martin always leaves … now it’s just many movies’ cliches and simple storytelling … but it’s still GoT and people are glad to see how the story continues

        Quote  Reply

    5. iridium:
      Warm reviews this week, even from some of those ehi complained about Jon’s resurrection last week.

      Because they received very harsh reception from their readers last week. People just don’t like to read reviews that criticize for the sake of criticizing.

      E2 was great, the majority of the fans thought that, and those reviewers just didn’t seem credible.

      Now they are praising E3 even more that it deserves. Some of them are really silly.

        Quote  Reply

    6. mau,

      This is one of those shows where I tend to look at, or rather remember the entire season as an entity, rather than by it’s individual episodes. Of course some stand out, hardhome, red wedding, etc. But overall I go by the season long plot line.

      So yeah, I agree that so far, these episodes have been decent, not great. But perhaps we will change our mind by episode 5-6, and then by the finale.

        Quote  Reply

    7. iridium:
      Warm reviews this week, even from some of those ehi complained about Jon’s resurrection last week. Perhaps there’s a lesson in there for them: don’t judge a plot development until you’ve actually seen the consequences of it. The way Jon’s rebirth was handled was perfectly done, imo.

      Couldn’t agree more. I thought the resurrection itself last week was perfectly done. And the aftermath this episode was very solid. All the characters’ reactions were exactly how I think those characters would react.

      Jon was confused, and saddened then removed the ongoing threat and finally took the out from his oath that his death afforded him. (hope that doesn’t come back to bite everyone if the White Walkers somehow breach an undermanned wall).

      Davos was vintage Davos – trying to reconcile what seemed to be an impossibility and moving on in a level headed, practical way.

      Melisandre – Still all about the Lord of Light.

      Tormond – Handling things with his usual “member” jokes/boasts/put downs.

        Quote  Reply

    8. Granted that E2 would be a very hard act to follow…..yesterday’s ep didnt have the Gasp Factor of the previous week, it was still enough to keep me interested.

      Jon’s self doubt and all round freaking out at coming back was brilliantly portrayed by Kit

        Quote  Reply

    9. I saw an interesting theory that I hadn’t heard before regarding Bran and the 3 eyed crow/raven .. When they did the tower of joy flashback, Bran was able to be heard by young Ned.. Also the three eyed crow/raven said if you stay too long you will be stuck there essentially…

      The theory is what if Bran has gone back before and stayed in the past.. There’s been so many Branden characters in Westeros history… His Nan even said early on in the show how much Bran reminded her of some of them..

      The three eyed crow/raven’t real name is Brynden Tully .. Brynden is one letter away from Branden .. and he also said he had been waiting 1,000 years for Bran .. wouldn’t it be an interesting twist if Brynden the Three Eyed Crow/Raven was actually a version of Bran that had stayed too long and got stuck in the past.. I found it interesting

        Quote  Reply

    10. The reason some people seem to think the ToJ felt lacking was because… it was. Cutting a scene like that in two is one of the worst decisions this show has made. It’s not a long scene. The first part isn’t very important (despite it’s fun factor and seeing Arthur Dayne in action). Granted, you can find importance in 2 Kingsguard guarding someone in particular, it makes no impact without finding out WHY. And I must say, I loved how the first part went down, even with the minor changes I see complaints about (2 instead of 3, no Dawn, duel wielding, etc).

      But it needed to second part to stand out. And the second part needs the first to not feel disjointed. Are we going to cut to Ned two episodes from now walking up the stairs as if he just killed Dayne?

      The only reason I can think of to do this was to add an action scene in a slow episode. We could’ve waited 5 episodes to get the full ToJ sequence. Instead, we got half to spice up the action quota.

      I’m disappointed. I liked the whole episode, but that sequence needed its second part.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Looper,

      Maybe they thought it was just too much informations in one episode. This show is made for the people who never read the books. Before this episode 90% of the audience never know what ToJ was in the first place.

      Now they know and maybe it will feel more natural for them in E5.

        Quote  Reply

    12. This has been a really great start off to a season in my opinion, so happy with how the season is going. Can’t even imagine the next couple of episodes for season 6, especially episodes 7,8,9, and 10.
      Also really loved the tower of joy fight, wasn’t disappointed. I was so in awe of sir Arthur dayne figting, so good.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Dear Editors: If you just want opinions from print media, I won’t mind if you delete this, but if you’re also interested in video reviews & insights, I really enjoy Emergency Awesome, Preston Jacobs and Alt Shift X, all on YouTube.

        Quote  Reply

    14. I liked this week but I loved last week. Yet the general reaction from reviewers has been the reverse … go figure. Maybe they belatedly realised that they were being a bit ridiculous about Jon’s resurrection.

        Quote  Reply

    15. StannisGotScrewed,

      teunteulai: Agreed. it’s mostly about the already known characters and much awaited events and revealing secrets, but this season differs so much from the previous ones …. it’s to see that it’s not a filmed book anymore, there are no those details and hints that Martin always leaves … now it’s justmany movies’ cliches and simple storytelling … but it’s still GoT and people are glad to see how the story continues

      You poor things, no more books to cling to anymore. How will you survive?

        Quote  Reply

    16. JCDavis:
      Olly Olly hangin’ from a tree, d -e-a-d as dead as can be. Oh happy days.

      It will always be Laura Stone. While I enjoy reading others, I am thoroughly entertained by Ms. Laura.

      I found that pretty funny… great way to start the conversation off…. so glad that little prick is gone.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Have anyone seen the sword of Arthur Dayne,the one in the right hand?Is whiter than the other and has a sun drawn on it.That is his legendary sword 😀

        Quote  Reply

    18. mau:
      Looper,

      Maybe they thought it was just too much informations in one episode. This show is made for the people who never read the books. Before this episode 90% of the audience never know whatToJwas in the first place.

      Now they know and maybe it will feel more natural for them in E5.

      I would have to argue (politely) on the statement you made, “the show is made for people who never read the books”.. ummm I really think the show was made for THE readers. That is who was ready and waiting for it to come on board and who pulled it through its first season but please correct me if Im wrong. The readers are the ones who were originally totally invested in this series. It grew to non-readers and they now outnumber the “unsullied” but I really don’t think that this show was made for the “sullied”. IMHO that is

        Quote  Reply

    19. Ice Spider,

      But it is. Every creative decision they made was for non-book readers to understand the show. Every change, everything they cut, every exposition, literally everything they’ve done was for non-book fans, to make it easier for them to follow the show, because they are the audience.

      Book fans were important before S1, but after that this was a show made for the people who never read the books.

        Quote  Reply

    20. mau,

      The problem with the scene is there wasn’t any information. We got a fight and one line about Ned’s sister, not even her actual name. If I didn’t know what (likely) happens next, I’d be wondering why that scene was even included.

      And the ToJ fight scene was made for the readers. Every non-book reader I’ve talked to was confused as to who those two knights were and why they were important. If a non-book reader knows the name Arthur Dayne, he’s either lying or did research that gave him book info.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Lonald: The three eyed crow/raven’t real name is Brynden Tully ..

      Bryndyn Rivers…..a great bastard of the riverlands.

      I’m sure BR mentioned the “don’t stay too long in any one vision” because of Bran’s power. As we saw, Bran voice was a windy whisper to Ned. BR knows this and knows that Bran could influence things….hence causing butterfly effects in the present.

      BR knows things and he probably has ulterior motives. He is a Targ and the reveals about Jon and the distant past (maybe involving the NK) are going to be very consequential….imho.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Looper: Are we going to cut to Ned two episodes from now walking up the stairs as if he just killed Dayne?

      What would be really cool is if Bran’s second visit to the Tower of Joy rewound the scene just a wee bit, viewing it from a different angle so we could see Howland stir, drag himself to his feet and sneak up on Dayne from behind. Then follow Ned up the stairs!

        Quote  Reply

    23. Lonald:
      I saw an interesting theory that I hadn’t heard before regarding Bran and the 3 eyed crow/raven .. When they did the tower of joy flashback, Bran was able to be heard by young Ned..Also the three eyed crow/raven said if you stay too long you will be stuck there essentially…

      The theory is what if Bran has gone back before and stayed in the past.. There’s been so many Branden characters in Westeros history… His Nan even said early on in the show how much Bran reminded her of some of them..

      The three eyed crow/raven’t real name is Brynden Tully .. Brynden is one letter away from Branden .. and he also said he had been waiting 1,000 years for Bran ..wouldn’t it be an interesting twist if Brynden the Three Eyed Crow/Raven was actually a version of Bran that had stayed too long and got stuck in the past..I found it interesting

      I LIKE IT!!!

        Quote  Reply

    24. PLEASE by the old gods and the new do not let Jon and Sansa miss each other.

      PLEASE the seven, the old gods, Lord of Light, Drowned god, please let there be a Stark hug.

      I still haven’t recovered from Bran seeing Jon and not going to hug him WAHHHH

        Quote  Reply

    25. I haven’t quite gotten to all of the regulars today, but generally speaking, this week’s set of reviews has been far more enjoyable to read than last week’s.

      Maybe it’s just because I was expecting a more universal acclaim for “Home” (which the fandom seems to have generally loved) than we saw. My expectations for what the critics would have to say about “Oathbreaker” weren’t quite as high. But I’ve been very pleased with the positive reception that Episode 3 is receiving so far. If nothing else, getting some distance from all those trite “Jon Snow’s resurrection was predictable and/or disappointing” and “Ramsay is too violent and sadistic” thinkpieces has brightened my mood considerably.

      I’m really liking Rob Bricken’s reviews at i09. I was disappointed to hear that Charlie Jane Anders was leaving the beat, but Bricken’s been great the past two weeks.

      The range of criticisms surrounding the show’s pacing continue to be a source of amusement. I open one review, and the writer is marveling at how fast and efficiently the show is moving. I open another, and that writer is chafing against the slow-burn of several storylines. It just goes to demonstrate yet again that this show’s pace is truly impossible to make one-size-fits-all, given the multiple geographically disparate storylines it has to service. All Game of Thrones can do is split the difference, which I think they’re doing beautifully.

        Quote  Reply

    26. I thought it was great that the reviews seem to catch on that Dany is also an Oathbreaker in never assuming the role of a Dothraki widow.

      Other than Jon and Umbers, there were some subtle oaths broken. Arya in lying as part of her Faceless Man training too.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Looper:
      mau,

      The problem with the scene is there wasn’t any information. We got a fight and one line about Ned’s sister, not even her actual name. If I didn’t know what (likely) happens next, I’d be wondering why that scene was even included.

      And the ToJ fight scene was made for the readers. Every non-book reader I’ve talked to was confused as to who those two knights were and why they were important. If a non-book reader knows the name Arthur Dayne, he’s either lying or did research that gave him book info.

      I counter that it was a setup for what is in that tower. Part of it is in last episode’s flashback that put Lyanna back on the viewers mind. Then this part connects to that. We heard a woman’s cry so it was implied that there is a woman in the room. Part of the dialogue was “where is my sister”. We connect that to be Lyanna because of the flashback last week. And we were never introduced to another sister throughout the series. Next one might be the last part of that or it could be a couple more segments. If it was just for bookreaders, then it would included more dialogue from the books. But that whole dialogue in the book , while good and poetic on paper, does not flow well when heard spoken by actual people.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Nadia:
      I thought it was great that the reviews seem to catch on that Dany is also an Oathbreaker in never assuming the role of a Dothraki widow.

      Other than Jon and Umbers, there were some subtle oaths broken. Arya in lying as part of her Faceless Man training too.

      What lies did Arya tell?

        Quote  Reply

    29. Great little interview with Art Parkinson I just found http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-art-parkinson_us_5730d3c3e4b016f378968aee

      He says Shaggydog is really dead (but he would either way) and I thought this was the most interesting part of the article:

      HuffPo: What should fans expect from Rickon the rest of the way?

      ArtP: It’s definitely going to be an interesting season, and to keep an eye out for the little details.

      Sorry if this has been posted somewhere already – haven’t had a chance to get through all the posts yet today!

        Quote  Reply

    30. Tim of House Deddings,

      Completely agree. This was the set-up for what will probably be an epic game-changing scene. The scene in this episode was cool, but all it really does is set up that scene. I don’t really agree with the view that it was rushed and confusing to the unsullied. The scene didn’t need any clunky exposition. It was a great sword-fight, with the woman’s scream in the tower intriguing the audience. Unsullied didn’t know anything about ToJ before this week; they do now.

      When it was first speculated that ToJ would be split I was pretty sceptical. However, I think they may pull it off. It was frustrating to leave the scene, but I think it ended neatly, and it made you want to know what happens next. I also think that any revalation will have much more of an effect as a separate scene as well; it may have come across as tacked on otherwise.

      I also don’t think episodes should spend too much time in flashbacks per episode. This scene was around 5 minutes. I’m guessing that the second part will also be 5 minutes. You need to move the current plot along, and whilst the flashbacks are important you don’t want the present plot to stall in an episode because you’re spending too much time on them. 5 minutes was fine, 10 minutes would’ve been 20% of the episode which is far too much.

        Quote  Reply

    31. mau:
      Ice Spider,

      But it is. Every creative decision they made was for non-book readers to understand the show. Every change, everything they cut, every exposition, literally everything they’ve done was for non-book fans, to make it easier for them to follow the show, because they are the audience.

      Book fans were important before S1, but after that this was a show made for the people who never read the books.

      Well that was kinda my whole point.. the show was made FOR THE BOOK readers.. no one really knew if the show was going to be a hit.. so the book readers were in fact the ones they were making the show for.. NOW it may have changed since the first season since obviously the show took off and they had to start thinking of the non-book readers but essentially my point is that D&D knew they would have to pull in the faithful fans of GRRM if they wanted this to be a success…. which as we all know was and is!!

        Quote  Reply

    32. Nadia,

      I think your prayers will be answered. There is a promo shot of Brienne and it looks like she is standing just outside of the door that was bashed in by Thorne & Co. Her expression is kind of bittersweet. In my mind, she is seeing Jon/Sansa together and possibly even leaving her with him to go forward on her next mission.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Ice Spider: Well that was kinda my whole point.. the show was made FOR THE BOOK readers.. no one really knew if the show was going to be a hit.. so the book readers were in fact the ones they were making the show for.. NOW it may have changed since the first season since obviously the show took off and they had to start thinking of the non-book readers but essentially my point is that D&D knew they would have to pull in the faithful fans of GRRM if they wanted this to be a success…. which as we all know was and is!!

      D&D on various interviews mentioned: (1) they admitted they do not have a lot of experience in being show runners and producing a tv show (2) book 1 is ready made to be adapted for tv with not a lot of changes/diversion. So having this two, on season 1 they relied more to the book for narratives/dialogues etc. However their intention is to make it understandable to the general viewers (both bookreaders and not). They know they have a ready made viewers already with the bookreaders but they have to attract more than just them. Their comments that their pilot is a disaster, things like it it is not apparent that Jaime and Cersei are twins etc. They have to reshoot the pilot due to issues of clarity among other things. If it not geared to non readers, they would not have to worry about making it clear Jaime and Cersei are twins, because as soon as we see the scene at the tower and Bran was pushed, a bookreader already know the implied reason for that. A non book reader will only see that Cersei was cheating on the king, but will miss that it was incest unless it was made clear beforehand they were twins

        Quote  Reply

    34. Tim of House Deddings,

      Arya in lying as part of her Faceless Man training too.

      What lies did Arya tell?

      If Arya is ignorant; can she tell a lie?

      Is Jon her half-brother (as she said) or her cousin (as she *may* be ignorant to)?

        Quote  Reply

    35. Jack Bauer 24,

      It’s unclear. I’m hoping that we’ll get a brief shot or two of the Night’s Watch and the wildlings working to restore the gate before Sansa, Brienne, and Pod arrive at Castle Black. Otherwise, I guess we’ll have to infer that they fixed it between episodes, or while our main characters were busy dealing with Jon’s return.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Nadia,

      Dany is only a Dothraki widow because she was married to a Khal against her will. Basically sold by her brother for an army. Can she really be considered an oathbreaker? Maybe by Dothraki standards but not by anyone else’s.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Connor:
      Welp, that Shaggydog theory is false now. Art Parkinson confirmed that Shaggydog is indeed dead ?

      Rest in Piece, Shaggy ?

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-art-parkinson_us_5730d3c3e4b016f378968aee

      Damn. Nothing like going out in a blaze of cinematic indifference to the entire Direwolf/Stark connection. The fiercest one of all, no less, reduced to a head on a hook, without even the thought to give him at least a fighting death in defense of his Stark.

      I love the show, and books, and don’t complain about much. But I’m honestly sick of seeing every other manipulator, turn cloak, or psycho (or their House) either winning or at least given a fighting chance. Lannisters keep going. Bolton keeps terrorizing. Dany has dragons and friends, and is never in any real danger. The Starks just get killed, beaten, betrayed or played. Doesn’t matter if one or two make it to the end, at this point. To me, it will all be a Pyrrhic victory after all the loss and damage. It’s just getting darker and darker.

      But of course, I’ll keep watching, even so.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Nice to see that the reviews are much more positive this week. Maybe, the very positive viewers’ response to the last episode, as opposed to the reviews were responsible for this change? Still, this was my favorite episode too, so far.

      It’s funny how almost all the reviewers think Jon has left CB and that Jon and Sansa are going to miss each other! Maybe nobody can dare to hope for a Stark re-union 🙂 . Hopefully people will be pleasantly surprised next episode.

        Quote  Reply

    39. mau:
      Ice Spider,

      But it is. Every creative decision they made was for non-book readers to understand the show. Every change, everything they cut, every exposition, literally everything they’ve done was for non-book fans, to make it easier for them to follow the show, because they are the audience.

      Book fans were important before S1, but after that this was a show made for the people who never read the books.

      Hogwash. How did teleporting Sand Snakes make things easier for anyone to understand? Or Selmy dying so Tyrion could get more screen time? Or Dayne having two swords? Heck, I could go on all day about changes that were made with no obvious connection to making things easy to understand, or in fact made things confusing.

      PS: You might want to refrain from using words like “every” in an argument. Such words make your claims easily falsifiable.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Tim of House Deddings: D&D on various interviews mentioned: (1) they admitted they do not have a lot of experience in being show runners and producing a tv show(2)book 1 is ready made to be adapted for tv withnot a lot of changes/diversion.So having this two, on season 1 they relied more to the book for narratives/dialogues etc.However their intention is to make it understandable to the general viewers (both bookreaders and not). They know they have a ready made viewers already with the bookreaders but they have to attract more than just them. Their comments thattheir pilot is a disaster, things like it it is not apparent thatJaime and Cersei aretwins etc.They have to reshoot the pilot due to issues of clarity among other things.If it not geared to non readers, they would not have to worry about making it clear Jaime and Cersei are twins, because as soon as we see the scene at the tower and Bran was pushed, a bookreader already know the implied reason for that.A non book reader will only see that Cersei was cheating on the king,but will miss that it was incest unless it was made clear beforehand they were twins

      Okie.. thanks for that!! Appreciate it.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Ice Spider: Well that was kinda my whole point.. the show was made FOR THE BOOK readers.. no one really knew if the show was going to be a hit.. so the book readers were in fact the ones they were making the show for.. NOW it may have changed since the first season since obviously the show took off and they had to start thinking of the non-book readers but essentially my point is that D&D knew they would have to pull in the faithful fans of GRRM if they wanted this to be a success…. which as we all know was and is!!

      No one makes a $100 million show for a group of book nerds, I’m sorry to say (as a nerd). The show had to be approachable by the general audience from start.

        Quote  Reply

    42. JCDavis:
      Olly Olly hangin’ from a tree, d -e-a-d as dead as can be. Oh happy days.

      It will always be Laura Stone. While I enjoy reading others, I am thoroughly entertained by Ms. Laura.

      LMFAO. Ah, this is why I like you. That boy just couldn’t get his hate in check.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Tim of House Deddings,

      I agree with the dialogue thing, I’m glad they did it that way. And I agree the scene was a set up… I just think it’d work better if the payoff happened immediately rather than two episodes later (assuming it’ll be episode 5). It felt disjointed, and I think returning to it without that set up right before it will feel even more disjointed. But let’s see how they do it before I start complaining about the next part too =P

        Quote  Reply

    44. Chad Brick: Hogwash. How did teleporting Sand Snakes make things easier for anyone to understand? Or Selmy dying so Tyrion could get more screen time? Or Dayne having two swords? Heck, I could go on all day about changes that were made with no obvious connection to making things easy to understand, or in fact made things confusing.

      PS: You might want to refrain from using words like “every” in an argument. Such words make your claims easily falsifiable.

      Easily explained. Teleporting the sand snakes gave the Dorne story a quick death that did not take up a lot of time. They realized Dorne and the characters were not working on the show, bid farewell to Alexander Siddig in case they could not get him again and kept the remaining cast on retainer for the season end.

      Selmy dying gave them less characters to focus on in Mereen (Tyrion and Varys). What would Selmy do now that Tyrion has taken charge and Jorah has come back. Stand around to speak a few lines of dialogue?

      Dayne having two swords made more sense than him defending and parrying against four people at the same time with one sword. He was able to both attack and defend against four better with two swords. Besides it looked much cooler.

      While changes are certainly made to make the show easier to understand, there are also changes that take into account what translates better from page to TV screen. The show is also trying to trim down its vast array of characters. At this point I wish GRRM would also do the same, but he seems to be only interested in adding more and more characters to his never ending tome.

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    45. What’s the chances Lyanna have birth to twins and Howland took Meera while Ned took Jon and Meera is the third dragon rider?

        Quote  Reply

    46. Looper:
      mau,

      The problem with the scene is there wasn’t any information. We got a fight and one line about Ned’s sister, not even her actual name. If I didn’t know what (likely) happens next, I’d be wondering why that scene was even included.

      From a completely self-contained, zero-context point of view, the scene was pretty explicitly included to communicate that the stories we are told about the past are not necessarily true. Bran learns that his father’s fight with Dayne (which is probably one of the major stories people tell about Ned Stark given Dayne’s legendary status), didn’t go down the way people told him it went down. Ned nearly died and was saved by chance and Howland Reed’s dishonourable fighting.

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    47. Jack Bauer 24,

      No chance at all. There’s no reason for Ned to have given Meera to Howland to raise. Meera doesn’t look like a Targ, so there would have been no worry.

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    48. Looper:
      The reason some people seem to think the ToJ felt lacking was because… it was. Cutting a scene like that in two is one of the worst decisions this show has made. It’s not a long scene. The first part isn’t very important (despite it’s fun factor and seeing Arthur Dayne in action). Granted, you can find importance in 2 Kingsguard guarding someone in particular, it makes no impact without finding out WHY. And I must say, I loved how the first part went down, even with the minor changes I see complaints about (2 instead of 3, no Dawn, duel wielding, etc).

      But it needed to second part to stand out. And the second part needs the first to not feel disjointed. Are we going to cut to Ned two episodes from now walking up the stairs as if he just killed Dayne?

      The only reason I can think of to do this was to add an action scene in a slow episode. We could’ve waited 5 episodes to get the full ToJ sequence. Instead, we got half to spice up the action quota.

      I’m disappointed. I liked the whole episode, but that sequence needed its second part.

      The parts work in conjunction with contemporary character arcs

      They also work in conjunction with eachother, eg last week in Winterfell, then slightly older etc

      In terms of contemporary arcs, obviously there is Bran slowly chafing at getting held back by the 3-eyed crow etc

      But there is
      *Howland Reed being introduced
      *A theme that not everything was how it was made out to be, eg the nature of the fight but also the notion of Lyanna being kidnapped and raped etc
      * “Mel: “Stannis wasn’t the Prince that was Promised, someone has to be”;”Our Prince wanted us here”….”My Watch has ended” leading on to -> “Promise me Ned” in reference to the newly born Prince…

      There’s also the issue of Mothers and the gods, eg HS and Tommen but also Mel and Jon, Lyanna and Jon etc

      The rest of ToJ will be revealed in ways relevant to other themes being explored in the given episodes. My guess is in the Door episode perhaps, but with this type of thing it is a journey of discovery for both Bran and the viewer, can’t reveal too much too early

      Plus it is a good exercise to consider how ones emotions and regard for characters adjusts as new info comes to light, Jaimie is a fantastic example of this

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    49. Streetad: From a completely self-contained, zero-context point of view, the scene was pretty explicitly included to communicate that the stories we are told about the past are not necessarily true.Bran learns that his father’s fight with Dayne (which is probably one of the major stories people tell about Ned Stark given Dayne’s legendary status), didn’t go down the way people told him it went down.Ned nearly died and was saved by chance and Howland Reed’s dishonourable fighting.

      Exactly, and it is a thematic point relating to a larger narrative that the entire saga isn’t what people think it is, eg Lyanna wasn’t kidnapped, Jon isn’t Ned Starks bastard etc

      My mind will be blown if we see a Rhaegar/Lyanna Weir Tree wedding flashback, as it means Jon isn’t even Prince Rhaegars bastard, but rather the legitimate trueborn heir which is a complete turnaround for a character who has always been derided as an illegitimate bastard etc

      Of course it may irritate Dany fans…

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    50. Chad Brick: Hogwash. How did teleporting Sand Snakes make things easier for anyone to understand? Or Selmy dying so Tyrion could get more screen time? Or Dayne having two swords? Heck, I could go on all day about changes that were made with no obvious connection to making things easy to understand, or in fact made things confusing.

      But everything you mentioned made things easier to follow and understand.

      With House Martell dead ,show watchers don’t need to think about them, and they won’t need much to understand why Dorne made an alliance with Dany. The bastards of Dorne want revenge, Dany will give them that, they don’t need more than 5 minutes of screen time for Dorne until the end of the season.

      Selmy dying so Tyrion could get more screen time? I mean, yes. It is obvious why it is easier to follow Meereen storyline with Varys and Tyrion, than with Selmy.

      Dayne having two swords also made it very easy for show watchers to understand that he is special, because they never saw anyone in the show fighting like that. They don’t need much exposition or history lessons.

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    51. Late to the party, as ever… Here are my first impressions after watching the episode twice, before reading any reviews, recaps or comments…

      Overall, I really liked the episode, though some of Meereen and Dany was a bit meh. There was a real sense of the game having changed, new players taking over from the old, the beginning of the end… Very excited about what happens next!

      Castle Black – Oooh, the way it started, with the breathing! Chills! And then Davos rushing to help (almost comfort) Jon, give him his cloak… Apparently dying and coming back isn’t a very pleasant experience. Especially when you realise you were murdered by your own men. Mel is eager to know what’s on the other side and Jon tells her the same Beric told her. Nothing. But now Mel thinks Jon is the Prince that was Promised. Interesting. (Was TPTWP ever mentioned in the show before?)

      Jon seems to have lost confidence, but Davos gives him one of his pep talks (I still don’t like Davos swearing. He’s a gentleman) and later helps Jon outside to meet his men. Ah, Tormund (and his member), he knows Jon’s no god because he saw Jon’s pecker. Jon winces when Tormund hugs him. Do Jon’s wounds still hurt?

      Jon and Edd… Ah, the feels…

      Later Jon’s alone, holding his stabbed jerkin, apparently he’s been doing a lot of thinking. He tosses the jerkin aside and grabs his sword, to do his NW duty and execute the traitors. Last words? Narrow-minded Bowen Marsh stays true to his narrow-mindedness, Othell Yarwyck wants Jon to write to his mum, Alliser Thorne (who first addresses Jon correctly as Lord Commander) stands by his decision. “I fought, I lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, you’ll be fighting their [wildlings’] wars forever.” AT straightens up, facing death valiantly. Aw, there was honour and discipline in him. And Owen Teale is so magnificent!

      Olly… Jon almost can’t look at Olly. No words from Olly, just a look of defiance, hate, fear… (Young Brenick was so great in his role as Olly!) And Jon? Sadness? Disappointment? Pity? Determination?

      The whole scene was so tense, with Mel, Tormund, Davos watching… watching… Jon takes a moment before finally cutting the rope (and his allegiance to the Night’s Watch…) It wasn’t easy, but Jon’s determined. Poor Edd when he’s left holding Jon’s NW cloak, and Castle Black, and realises what’s just happened.

      “My watch is ended.” (Hooray!!)

      I just hope it’s for the real war. I don’t know how much Jon knows of what’s been going on in Winterfell. He wouldn’t know of Sansa’s escape or Roose’s death, or Karstarks allying with Ramsay, I think. So I hope Winterfell wasn’t his motivation to break his oaths, but rather to fight the real war against the White Walkers, and he knows the few dozen men of the NW are useless in that war, he needs to unite the North and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms – an almost impossible task.

      I loved the end. “My watch is ended.” Beautiful music. I sat quiet for several minutes. Wow.

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    52. Sam and Gilly – let’s get two meta things out of the way first 🙂 That ship in the trailers was just one ship, not three. So there! And baby Sam seems to have grown! Other than that… I really like show-Gilly, she’s more of a real character and feistier than the book-Gilly. Braving the sea and the storm, excited about seeing Oldtown. The sea/see thing was a bit clunky (and I pity all the translators who had to do the subtitles for that bit of English homonym wordplay!) but the point, I guess, is to remind us that Gily can now read. I wonder if that becomes important at some point.

      The important thing is that Sam admits that he doesn’t really care about the NW or even Jon anymore, he cares about Gilly and the baby. Ah, Maester Aemon, how right you were. “Love is the death of duty.”

      Tower of Joy – I can almost hear the howls of book purists on this one, haha. Six against two, not seven against three. Parley cut short, not Trident – King’s Landing – Dragonstone – Storm’s End. Just the pertinent point. Why weren’t you guarding your king Aerys or your prince Rhaegar? And where’s my sister?

      I’m not a connoiseur of fight sequences. Seemed all right to me, and the important point was that Bran saw that his father did not defeat Ser Arthur Dayne (BTW, how did Bran immediately know it was AD?), instead, Howland Reed stabbed him in the back = v. dishonourable. (Are all the Stark kids learning that being all honourable isn’t actually all it’s cranked up to be? About time!)

      Bran wants to see more, calls out… and young Ned hears! He stops and looks around, no-one there… But the Three-eyed Raven takes Bran back to the cave, and Bran is angry. He wants to see what’s in the tower (don’t we all 😀 ), and the seed is sown for Bran to disobey the Three-eyed Raven.

      “You think I wanted to sit here for a thousand years?” Huh? Didn’t the show hint in S4 that the Three-eyed Raven is Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven? Anyway, he says flat out that Bran isn’t going to stay in the cave forever. I wonder what those shots of the Child of the Forest mean. Oh, and poor Bran has to learn EVERYTHING. Gods I loved Max von Sydow’s voice there!

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    53. Dany – I found this sequence a bit meh. So Dany’s in Vaes Dothrak, introduced into the Dosh Khaleen. The main crone (widow of a great khal, Khal Savo) isn’t impressed by Dany’s threats. Khalar Vezhven (a gathering of khalasars) will decide Dany’s fate.

      I have to say that this season has made the Dothraki culture seem more real to me, so props to that.

      Meereen – Varys with his gentle blackmail/bribes was excellent. We get to see how the spider operates. And: “Men can be fickle but little birds I always trust.”

      The scene with Tyrion, Grey Worm and Missandei was awkward, as it was meant to be. However, I got the feeling that Peter Dinklage has to be given his quota of good one-liners, so it felt a bit clunky. It gets interesting when Varys comes with the news: Astapor, Yunkai and Volantis support the Harpies. Missandei gets all bloodthisty (WTF?), and did everybody see the frame of Tyrion with GW and his dagger in the foreground. Twice. Uh-oh, is there trouble brewing there?

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    54. King’s Landing – oh the gods, there was so much there! Loved the scenes.

      First, Qyburn’s lab and an insight on how Varys maybe operated his little birds. Uuugh, Qyburn is so creepy – Anton Lesser is excellent!

      lol moment: Jaime walks up to Frankengregor, looks him up and down, “Does he understand what we’re saying? I mean, to the extent he ever understood complete sentences in the first place.” Good old sarky Jaime! Frankengergor turns his head (grrr), Jaime steps back. The Lannister brothers have big mouths, it’ll be the death of them one day, lol.

      However, Jaime doesn’t seem entirely happy with Frankengregor and Cersei’s tie with him. Cersei, on the other hand, is in full vengeance mode. Jaime tags along but doesn’t seem as forceful or committed. In the Small Council, he even tries a bit of diplomacy. “We’ve got a lot to discuss. All of us. Together.”

      Ah, the Small Council scene. Loved it.
      Poor old Pycelle, now reduced to providing comic relief, even more than Mace. Kevan and Olenna are the real power. Loved how Olenna needled Cersei (and Jaime). You’re not the Queen. I understand things can get confused in your family. Ouch.

      The callback to the famous Small Council musical chairs scene in S3 displays something about Tyrion and Jaime. Tyrion slowly and deliberately dragged the chair to the end of the table, for himself. Jaime slams it down, for Cersei. Then makes his gesture of diplomacy, but he hasn’t quite learned the thing yet. Kevan knows what a bad ruler (and bad person) Cersei is. When will Jaime learn?!!??

      Kevan takes the lead, with a slight nod to the other important person, Olenna, and they leave. Mace and Pycelle scramble after them. Oh, and that look Frankengregor gave Pycelle? He’s a goner. (BTW, it seems common knowledge now that Ser Robert Strong is “reworked” Gregor Clegane.)

      Jaime and Cersei are left in the Small Council chamber, alone. Friendless. (Jaime seems disappointed. Bites lip and trums fingers. What do I do now?)

      Next, Tommen and the High Sparrow’s masterclass of manipulation! Loved it, loved it, loved it!
      Tommen, “I am the King!” = callback to Tywin’s words to Joff…
      HS deftly leads Tommen down the garden path with mother and grandfather, why, they were on the gods’ side as well! HS tells Tommen that there’s so much good in all of us… That’s not what he told Jaime. He told Jaime we’re all vile siners and deserve to die.

      The High Sparrow is a manipulative hypocrite, but so is Cersei. Jaime faces a test. To be a true knight, he must reject both. (I’m desperately waiting for show-Jaime’s arc to catch up with his book arc!)

      All in all, things are brewing up nicely in KL, I’m really looking forward to what happens next.

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    55. El-Bobbie,

      Does Jon look like a Targaryen to you? Looks got nothing to do with it. Not supporting this theory because Meera is younger than Jon for her to be his sister. It wouldn’t make sense. People based it on their hair and that Howland was there. Theory of two babies is interesting if it was Jon and Daeny but again it wouldn’t make sense, given Daeny was born 8-9 months after Jon.

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    56. Braavos – I really liked how they did Arya’s training as a kind of a montage. The stick-fighting with the Waif and Arya getting better and finally besting her, interspersed with Arya learning about poisons (by smell!) and the Waif’s questions… Now, I’m interested as to why would the Faceless Men be interested in Arya’s family? And the Hound? (How did they even know about the Hound??) OK, the Hound is mentioned to show Arya’s confusion… and maybe something more..? Regarding the Hound, like, he might be relevant..? 😉

      The Waif calls it “Arya’s silly little list”, and a short one. “Who else is on it?” Viewer reaction: Haha, Waif, you’re on it!

      Jaqen’s final test to Arya. Drink from the fountain, it’s poison to all but no one. Arya drinks, and affirms she’s no one and gets her sight back. OK, I just don’t believe Arya has renounced her Stark identity. She hid Needle for a reason. Did Jaqen really believe Arya? Or was it just expedient to seem to believe her? For whatever agenda the Faceless men have?

      Winterhell – Smalljon Umber knows Ramsay killed Roose but doesn’t care. Old lords Bolton, Karstark and Umber are dead, the young lords take over. Jon Snow let the wildlings through and Smalljon wants to unite to fight agaist them. He won’t kneel but he’s got gifts to show good faith.
      Osha – Nooo!
      Rickon – Nooooo! Nooooo!
      Shaggydog’s severed head – NOOOOO!!! NOOOO!!!
      (BTW, it’s hard to believe Art Parkinson is the same Rickon we saw in seasons 1, 2 and 3!)

      Ramsay: “Welcome home, Lord Stark.” Oh-oh, I’ve got a bad feeling about this. 🙁

      (Then the show went back to Castle Black but I already blethered about it in a post above.)

      This episode really whet my appetite for what’s to come, especially the North and King’s Landing. I hope Arya, Dany and Meereen get as interesting soon!

      THE moment? Easy. “My watch is ended!”

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    57. A couple of more thought on the episode, before I go and read/see/hear what everybody else has said. 😀

      Jon breaking his oaths comes in the same episode that Arya (seemingly) rejects her family and identity, Sam admits he doesn’t care about the NW or even Jon, Smalljon Umber breaks the Umbers’ oath of fealty to the Starks (apparently Osha and Rickon and Shaggydog had been sheltering there for all this time but the wildlings tipped him over the edge). We didn’t see (audience first bets) Brienne or Jaime break any oaths in this episode… But they will, they will… Aah, it’s going to be brutal to the end. I love this show.

      I love the books, too. I only wish there’d be more of them. I’d happily spoil myself by reading the books and the end of the story but, alas! I can’t do that.

      I haven’t ventured to that other place inhabited by book-purists but I can imagine the howling and the whingeing. “Jon Snow wouldn’t do that!” HA! We don’t actually know what the new Jon would do, GRRM hasn’t pubished the book with his post-rez story. I find it plausible that he’s changed. Less concerned about petty honour and petty “right things to do”. He’s got a real thing to do now, and silly oaths and honour are a hindrance. The boy was killed, the man was born.

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    58. StannisGotScrewed:
      How anyone could’ve been happy with the horrible rushed ToJ flashback is beyond me, not to mention that DandD are further butchering this series
      People are way too easily pleased.

      You are free to dislike this episode and indeed the progression of the series past the books but I don’t think it is your place to judge how easily or not people are pleased. I get fed up of the amount of football programmes on UK TV but I don’t condemn the people who like such programmes (mind you if I did so I’d be condemning a lot of the male half of the population and some of the female half). I may have been known to shout “Oh no” at the TV when football comes on.

      I quite liked the ToJ and I thought the actor to play young Ned was credible as a younger version of Sean Bean (young Sean Bean might have been a tad more handsome) but as the old adage goes it would be a boring world if we all thought alike.

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    59. newbietothegame:
      StannisGotScrewed,

      You poor things, no more books to cling to anymore. How will you survive?

      From what I’ve read/heard George gave them his overview and key plot points for the remaining two books. So while the minor details may differ, the overall story should be pretty close to the remaining books. That’s why George said that the upcoming seasons will spoil the books.

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    60. talvikorppi,
      “OK, I just don’t believe Arya has renounced her Stark identity. She hid Needle for a reason.”

      Why doesn’t anybody think it possible that Arya is really becoming “No one?” Yes she hid needle, but since then she has been through a lot. How do you think the faceless men became who they are? Exactly what they are doing to Arya would be my guess. Breaking her down until they own her. Look what happened with Theon turning into Reek.

      “My watch is ended” was sad moment for me. I felt so bad for Jon right there. How he must have felt so defeated. Having been the best person he knew how to be, brave enough to do the unconventional thing, risking his life for others, and truly believing he was part of something honorable that gave his life purpose only to get nothing but hatred, and death. When he walks away, he is lost. So glad Ser Davos is around!

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    61. Looper,

      What about the three eyed raven telling us over and over and over that you cannot stay in a vision long?
      I think its pretty clear why they had to cut that scene in two, or else it would have been too long and inconsistent with what have been told since the beginning about warging and visions.
      Come on man.

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    62. ygritte,

      Davos seemed a real father figure to him this last episode, didn’t he? I thought the moment where he gave his hand for Jon to lean on as he was walking down the steps for the first time, was quite touching. Davos truly has been the MVP so far. Even though we did not really see the progression of their relationship, like why does Davos start caring about Jon so much, I am happy to see this bond on screen and I hope it continues. Both Jon and Sansa are finally surrounding themselves with the right people and hopefully come out triumphant by the end of the season.

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    63. Lonald,

      It sounds fun. It is actually Brynden Rivers, he is a Targaryen bastard with a Blackwood girl. He isn’t a Tully bastard. Also, he hasn’t been in the tree waiting around for 1000 years. He asks a rhetorical question ‘ “Do you think I want to sit here for 1000 years?” He hasn’t, Brynden Rivers was sent to the wall back in 230’s AC. Bloodraven aka Brynden Rivers hasn’t been sitting there probably even 75 years.

      How does the Brandon that goes into the visions stay? Does he take over the soul of the existing Brandon in the current Stark family at Winterfell? It is hard to swallow because it can’t just be a new person in the family showed up. Oh I thought I had 3 sons, but I have 4? Forgot about Brandon. It is fun, just not sure how it would work into the whole realism the books and show try to keep.

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    64. Looper,

      Meh, as a non-book reader myself, I found that scene made perfect sense.
      – Mentioning Lyanna
      – Confirming that Raeghars men were “protecting” Lyanna, or holding her hostage.
      – Showing us some more Ned stuff, and showing us Howland Reed, who was mentioned when Bran met Jojen and was interesting to see them together.
      – And as a non-book reader who also came to the theory that R+L=J, this scene was perfect.
      So what if I hadn’t heard Arthur Dayne before? It wasn’t confusing, Bran told us he was the best warrior at his time.

      And I have tons of casual viewer friends who had no issues understanding that scene. I even have a friend who up until this weekend, thought Jon was Ned’s son, until he saw that scene. And since everyone loves Ned, nice to see him action.

      I honestly don’t think there was any issues with cutting it where they did, and showing us characters we don’t know. Non-book readers aren’t stupid, its not hard to follow even though we haven’t heard of Arthur Dayne before.

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    65. Looper,

      That has been the best way someone has explained it. The fight was great. They barely cut to show how good the choreography was. The guy playing Ned did a good job acting like Ned, meaning Ned always seems to have those Elbows and Knees caulked. But you are 100% right, the scene would have been amazing had they shown us everything. Why were they fighting, we were short changed on the scene. The fighting however was magnificent

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    66. Ice Spider,

      This show was made for the television viewers because it is a good story and visually appealing for visual media if pulled off correctly. There were roughly 5 million copies of the entire book series up until 2011. There was roughly 9 million copies sold the summer once the first season was shown. I was one of em. You don’t make a show for the only 1.5 million book readers only to know you will diverge from the book a bit. They made a show that had a great story that hasn’t been done before. That critics have praised. The story was made for television viewers and the writers are trying their best to keep it to the books to please the people who originally invested in this story. But if the show was made for the book readers then there would be NO changes. Not even for the sake of TV. So I have to politely disagree with you.

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    67. Ice Spider,

      You make a great point, they were able to make the first season so close to the first story because the first story was a great introduction. only 8 POV characters and one of em died! Yes, the first season was made the most like the books, because the first book is the best book to be adapted to the screen. It is coincidence and happenstance. But the second the book started to sprawl out and bring in hundreds of more characters there was no chance.

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    68. ghost of winterfell,

      Yep, I enjoyed the little moment where he grabbed Davos’ arm on the stairs 🙂 I think that and him being the one to catch Jon when he’s falling and cover him after his awakening is sign their relationship will be very close and like father/son. Even though he’s not a believer, I think the LoL (or whatever entity brought Jon back and has mission for him) is also working through Davos, he just doesn’t know it yet.

      I do wish we had a bit more build-up, or rather a sign of just why Davos out of the blue cared enough to ask the red woman to do this thing for this man. I’m not convinced the show runners are taking the time needed to produce a balanced, well-thought out narrative sometimes. I guess if they want to cut the next seasons short they will need to leave some things to the viewers imagination?
      Also, the more I think about it the more I dislike the “pecker” joke from Tormund. Just not the right time nor place imo. I read it in spoiler and thought for sure it’s joke from the poster..and then it happened and I was like…. really? Lol.

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    69. Lonald:
      I saw an interesting theory that I hadn’t heard before regarding Bran and the 3 eyed crow/raven .. When they did the tower of joy flashback, Bran was able to be heard by young Ned..Also the three eyed crow/raven said if you stay too long you will be stuck there essentially…

      The theory is what if Bran has gone back before and stayed in the past.. There’s been so many Branden characters in Westeros history… His Nan even said early on in the show how much Bran reminded her of some of them..

      The three eyed crow/raven’t real name is Brynden Tully .. Brynden is one letter away from Branden .. and he also said he had been waiting 1,000 years for Bran ..wouldn’t it be an interesting twist if Brynden the Three Eyed Crow/Raven was actually a version of Bran that had stayed too long and got stuck in the past..I found it interesting

      With this in mind.. if it’s true, couldn’t Bran also be the night’s king?

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    70. Dennai:
      Ghosts Lunch,

      Polygamia isn’t accepted by neither the Old Gods nor the Seven, so Jon would still be a bastard

      Hasn’t there also been the speculation that

      Rhaegar actually married Lyanna

      That could be a game changer. Still there is much we don’t know. Hell for all we know Lyanna gave Ned a note for her mother to read and made him promise to give it to her. 😉 😛

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    71. Pigeon: LMFAO. Ah, this is why I like you. That boy just couldn’t get his hate in check.

      *bows* yeah well being stuck in a boat for a few years will do that. *shuffles feet* Meaning I like ya right back. OKAY PEOPLE keep your brains out of the gutter!!!

      Thanks ice spider Truth be told, while I am doing the happy dance that Olly is gone and that horrid smirk with, I really just wanted to do something in the first post other than the…..well you know THAT word. If I could, I would start the NMH’ing campaign. But I doubt it is appropriate for this site.

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    72. The whole TV vs Book thing. When did reading become such a bad thing? I read a series about a TV I like and now the TV show is no longer for me? It’s almost like encouraging illiteracy. Why read a book when someone else will do it for you (sarc)? There are people who read the books (and enjoy) them who also watch the show (and enjoy it). It’d be nice if more show purists would give the books a chance. Reading is healthy : )

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    73. The Mage,

      Reading is not a bad thing. However, confusing a good novel with a good script is a bad thing. Anna Karenina often is argued to be the greatest novel ever written. It is a great story about people wishing they could be somewhere other than where they are “supposed” to be But it would be an awful script; too many of the storytelling devices on which it relies are literary gills that not only do not work on cinematic land, but that are maladaptive in cinematic land.

      Now, obviously SoI&F is no Anna Karenina: but it is telling similar sorts of stories and it is relying on similar sorts of narrative devices in page. You can tell that story on screen: but you cannot do it the way that the book did anymore than a beached Great White can act like a T. rex.

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    74. The Mage:
      The whole TV vs Book thing. When did reading become such a bad thing? I read a series about a TV I like and now the TV show is no longer for me? It’s almost like encouraging illiteracy. Why read a book when someone else will do it for you (sarc)? There are people who read the books (and enjoy) them who also watch the show (and enjoy it). It’d be nice if more show purists would give the books a chance. Reading is healthy : )

      I think a lot of people, perhaps the majority of who’ve read the books, enjoy both. It’s just the vocal minority, fundamentalist fanatics either way, who give the impression on the interwebs that it’s either/or.

      I love GoT the show, it’s the first TV show since Shogun and Twin Peaks that I’ve really got into. (Oops, showing my age here! Though, TBF, I was a kid when Shogun first aired.) The show led me to the books, and I love them. You can get so much more detail and introspection from the books, lots of stuff that’s untranslatable into cinematic form.

      I’ve seen books I love translated into film/TV, and notice how the adaptations cut this or that, I don’t mind. Film/TV cannot be like a book, they’re different mediums. However, if a film/TV show encourages one person, let alone millions, to read the book, it’s all to the good.

      A funny reverse can happen. In my country, a 1955 film based on a groundbreaking novel from 1954 is shown on the telly every year on our Independence Day. Everybody’s seen the film, several times over, knows the characters, the important and the funny lines, the story… Some people, when they read the book for the first time, go “It wasn’t like that [in the film]!” Most people, though, read the book in high school as part of their compulsory lit. curriculum, so it’s rare to find people who haven’t read it. But still, the film has become the canon. (Yes, and I love the film but I love the book even more!)

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    75. Wimsey,

      I completely agree. My twin brother loves Tom Bombadil. Any time we discuss LotR he wants to know why Jackson cut him. Was he an important character? I think so but they were able to work around it in the film. Was he translatable to the screen? Eh, maybe? I think we def would loose something. All this is to say, I agree. Good book doesn’t necessarily equal a good script and following the book word for word is inefficient and ineffective.

      What I would argue against is that the show is made solely for the TV audience. This would be detrimental IMO and I don’t think GoT is solely for a tv audience. The show has dropped countless book eggs and is better for it.

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    76. talvikorppi,

      I think a lot of people, perhaps the majority of those who’ve read the books, enjoy both. It’s just the vocal minority, fundamentalist fanatics either way, who give the impression on the interwebs that it’s either/or.

      Well said. I wish I had some stats to back this up but it feels like there are more “show only” people than “book only” people. I mean with the delay, how could a book person completely avoid the show? They’d die from withdrawal. I just wish more show watchers would give the novels a chance. Maybe they are I am being unfairly critical? Maybe there aren’t as many “show only” people as I perceive?

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    77. Tycho Nestoris:
      talvikorppi,

      I just wish more show watchers would give the novels a chance.

      Uhmm… Maybe they’re just waiting for the book series to be finished or summat? Before beginning to read. You know, to avoid frustrations of having to wait for years after a cliffhanger finish or summat? Uhm, maybe I’m speaking out of turn but… uhm… it’s been five years since ADWD, and TWOW seems to be at least a year, maybe two or three away…

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    78. talvikorppi,

      I do think Martin’s delay is a valid concern. I would be curious to meet someone who watched the show, waited for ALL the books to publish and then went back and read the series. That’s some major level commitment.

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    79. shouldn’t ned have been wielding Ice?

      Hanging someone is designed to break their neck usually, while jon let them be strangled…that was cold

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    80. Lonald: With this in mind.. if it’s true, couldn’t Bran also be the night’s king?

      Beware of causal loops and grandfather paradoxes. They never end well. ?

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    81. Geralt of Rivia:
      Nodor,

      Ice is not really made for combat. Not so pracical as it is too heavy.

      Not necessarily too heavy as it was Valyrian steel, which is lighter than ordinary steel. The problem would be the size, it was too long for practical combat.

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    82. Stargaryen:
      Lonald,

      It sounds fun.It is actually Brynden Rivers, he is a Targaryen bastard with a Blackwood girl.He isn’t a Tully bastard.Also, he hasn’t been in the tree waiting around for 1000 years.He asks a rhetorical question ‘ “Do you think I want to sit here for 1000 years?”He hasn’t, Brynden Rivers was sent to the wall back in 230’s AC.Bloodraven aka Brynden Rivers hasn’t been sitting there probably even 75 years.

      How does the Brandon that goes into the visions stay?Does he take over the soul of the existing Brandon in the current Stark family at Winterfell?It is hard to swallow because it can’t just be a new person in the family showed up.Oh I thought I had 3 sons, but I have 4?Forgot about Brandon.It is fun, just not sure how it would work into the whole realism the books and show try to keep.

      Bran could go back to any point and be part of any bloodline IF this theory were real.. he could live any life and still have his abilities.. And if he was stuck in a “vision” perhaps he could take a physical form that looks like he does at the time of the vision… the three eyed crow stops him and warns him not to .. perhaps that is why.. every consider that? he gets stuck there… nobody would recognize him as family at all .. so it still makes sense.. he would gain knowledge over every attempt he made… there again is so many Bran/Brandon/Branden/Brynden variations that are VERY significant …

      As for being targaryen .. if he wanted to go back far enough with the power he seems to be described to have.. he could assume any house name he wanted … that’s a lot of power… and it seems the current three eyed crow/raven warns to want to keep the current Bran under control…. I think it’s VERY possible

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    83. I’m a little confused (admittedly that’s not unusual). I’ve noticed complaints that the Tower of Joy sequence falls flat specifically because it doesn’t have the scene with Lyanna to provide it with a conclusion and the proper emotional weight.

      I haven’t read the books, but hasn’t Martin effectively split the two scenes (e.g. setup and resolution) for close to 20 years?

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    84. talvikorppi:
      Dame of Mercia,

      Well said, Dame of Mercia.

      Now, how do you feel about the Leicester City win?

      Well I’ve been having a laugh at all the pictures that have popped up both in real life and the internet of Richard III shooting for goal.

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    85. The Mage:
      The whole TV vs Book thing. When did reading become such a bad thing? I read a series about a TV I like and now the TV show is no longer for me? It’s almost like encouraging illiteracy. Why read a book when someone else will do it for you (sarc)? There are people who read the books (and enjoy) them who also watch the show (and enjoy it). It’d be nice if more show purists would give the books a chance. Reading is healthy : )

      This

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    86. Tycho Nestoris: Was he an important character? I think so but they were able to work around it in the film.

      Tolkien himself said that Bombadil was of absolutely no importance. He wanted the Hobbits to have an adventure because he believed that there needed to be some sort of “action” scene every few chapters. He already had invented Bombadil and Old Man Willow, so he used them.

      Tolkien himself recommended that Bombadil be cut from a film adaptation that they were attempting back in the 1950’s. The adaptation actually was going to expand Bombadil’s part greatly. However, Tolkien admitted that the reason why he didn’t cut Bombadil was because, well, dammit, he’d written it, and he felt like it would become wasted effort. (He wrote the basic Bombadil material before he had any story or plot in mind: indeed, the final text still had “Bilbo” and “Bingo” crossed out in places!)

      The Lord of the Rings adaptations actually are an excellent example of how books should be converted to scripts and films. Jackson et al. had the story in mind: preserving and restoring what should be. Obviously, that’s not quite the same as what Tolkien said the story was (Death and Immortality), but many people have argued that is the story that Tolkien actually wrote. PJ et al. then set about trying to communicate it as effectively as possible on screen. A lot of the “world building” that some Tolkien fans loved so much was lost: but the story came through more clearly than it did from the books in many ways. Stuff like Bombadil was part of the reason why: because Tolkien did not cut the stuff he wrote before he had Death and Immortality firmly in mind, the final drafts retained stuff that didn’t contribute to that.

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    87. talvikorppi: I love GoT the show, it’s the first TV show since Shogun and Twin Peaks that I’ve really got into. (Oops, showing my age here! Though, TBF, I was a kid when Shogun first aired.)

      Don’t feel bad: I was already out of college when Shogun aired, so you’re just a spring chicken by comparison! I too enjoyed that show a lot – thought it was one of the better TV adaptations of a novel I’d seen. And Iain Glen reminds me a lot of Richard Chamberlain.

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    88. Wimsey: Tolkien himself said that Bombadil was of absolutely no importance.

      I always thought of Bombadil and Goldberry as “Elementals.” I appreciate them as indications that there are sentient forces in Middle Earth far older and more basic even than Elves and Ents, there perhaps before even the Valar came to Arda. Treebeard chants of “Eldest of all, the Elf-Children,” but when asked by the Hobbits who or what he is, Tom says, “Eldest, that’s what I am!” He appears to be of Man-kind, but I think that he’s meant more as an avatar of the Earth itself, and thus didn’t make it into the lists of the Ents. And Goldberry was described as literally the River’s daughter.

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